...& da' bases were loaded !!
taped the lirr babylon branch without any problems took a ton of
photos yesterday no problems enjoyed it 100% it was beautiful !!!
wooppee!!now dats' hittin a real home run wit' da' bases loaded! lol!
too bad you cant shoot video anymore on the nyc subway anymore !!
what a shame !! is that not awful !!! ugh !!!!!!!!!
yeaterday was wonderful everything went 100% well yea baby !!!
sweet revenge on long beach !! dont get mad get even !!!
Finally!
thankz! its off to RONKONKOMA today !! cant wait to see this too !!
this is what i cme here 4 folks !!
to see and enjoy !!
""Y""' ....??......!!...is that so hard 2 get across ??
...i dunno.........
The Ronkonkoma Branch is very interesting. Get over to the Port Washington Branch also before you go though! That is one of the nicest electric branches (you seem to love electrics), and nice stations, and the Manhassett Viaduct is not to be missed.
question....how about Oyster bay ??
electrics there too ?? ...zone #7 ...
thankz
Nope, Oyster Bay is diesel only.
Ronkonkoma to Greenport
Montauk Branch
Port Jefferson Branch from Huntington to Port Jefferson
Oyster Bay
are all diesel only branches.
All the other branches are electric.
thank you .
Well here it is after much delay:
SubTalkers Afterwork Fieldtrip to the Beaches of Rock and Long (Delayed from last Month).
This is the promised End-of-Summer railfan trip that had to be postponed for a number of reasons (mainly conflicting events).
Trip Date: Friday, October 4
Time: 5:30 PM (Jay Street station)
What to bring: One FunPass and a Hearty Appetite
Trip itinerary:
Meet at the Jay Street platform of the southbound 'A' train (headend) at 5:30 p.m.. We will wait for the first Far Rockaway-bound 'railfan window train' (meaning an R-32 or R-38 consist). If we don't have any luck, we will board whatever Far-Rock train arrives and take it to Mott Ave.
At Mott (last stop) we will board an N44 for the ride to Long Beach. We'll take it to the last stop (LIRR terminal). We will walk to Sui's Szechuan Restaurant, 40 E. Park Ave., almost across the street from the main LIRR terminal building. It might be slightly east of the station, but is a prominent establishment on the avenue.
For the return trip, some may take the LIRR to points in Brooklyn, Queens or Manhattan. However, for those with MetroCards the trip can be reversed to get back to the city. Also, for those residing on Long Island, there is the alternative of the local bus routes to points north where connecting east-west running buses are available, also via MetroCard.
Hopefully we will have a nice crowd for this excursion. This is a scenic, leisurely trip with photo ops along the way (Jamaica Bay, Howard Beach AirTrain facility, etc).
I'll be there with Fun Pass in hand to take a very l-o-n-g way home.
The LI Bus #15 drops me 1 1/2 blocks from home.
Bring you significant other, as there are some realy nice spots along the LI Bus #33 route that you can drop off at to have a lovely dinner on this Friday night. The spot we intend to end up in is very nice, reasonably priced and has a very large round table. The last time we were there with SubSurf & Heypaul the other customers thought we were tourist vs. railfans because Heypaul was videoing us.
Actually, there's a BIG advantage to being a "tourista" than a "foamer on the loose" ... HeyPaul did you a favor, looks like YOU owe HIM some money. Heh.
T, you leaving from work?
The wife is off camping with da nephew (cub scouts) so I'll leave from work 4pm or 430pm. Queens/Queensboro Plaza
'bout time ya made a Long Beach Trip :)
At this point my gardson, Justin, says he wants to join us, so I'll be coming from home on LIRR.
We could also find out what imprint Salaam left on Long Beach...LOL!
Bring those pics from this past weekend. That might do the trick.
Paul
Paul, as long as you'll show up...I'll bribe ya with the pics! :)
Besides, after driving around the midnight hour last Saturday, you deserve to chill out and relax with some good company...
Perhaps I can bribe you with a ice cold beer. Interested?
Your're right. Need to chill after Saturday night.
Make it a Molson's and I'll take ya up on that offer! ;)
You got it.
Hope you guys have fun.
But I don't know what kind of photo ops you're going to get with it being dark out. (Hint: the flash ain't gonna do you any good).
Not doing it so much for the photo ops...but I did take into consideration that we should do this trip BEFORE we go back to turning our clocks forward...
Hey Dougie,
It's fall back and spring forward.
Also we gotta watch out for Lizzie or whatever the 'L' storm is.
;| ) Sparky
Yeah some bad news on that, looks like the remnants of Lizzie may affect us with showers Friday. If it looks like it's gonna rain I may not be able to go. A 35 min walk back in wind and rain from Sea Cliff LIRR is a sure way to get sick.
No, it's a sure way to get wet. Rain brings water, not disease.
Or mugged, long walk watch out for muggers in the corners....
Sounds like the water'll melt ya or something...
It's not as much the rain from the sky, but the flooding. In Sea Cliff, puddles up to ones knees aren't uncommon in good gully washers.
If it rains, I'm still gonna do the railfanning, but I'll skip the beach.
John, sounds like you need a rowboat...
BTW, we're NOT literally going to the Beach. Just the last stop on the N33 (thanks VTrain). And almost across the street from there is the restaurant. So we will not be walking over to the Long Beach Boardwalk if that was what you feared...
Yah, the beach is 3 blocks away, I don't think we'll find knee deep pools of water that muggers hide in and do a Rambo on ya.
Long Beach probably has better drainage than Sea Cliff. :-0
Anyway, some good news, it may not rain Friday after all as Lili has slowed down. Lili will pound the Gulf coast though.
As long as that ain't Lizzie Borden we'll do fine...:)
On a previous trip, I think it was RIP TA42 Hope Tunnel, aka Mike, who snapped this realy great shot of the LIRR station at Long Beach just as the sun was going down.
good luck with the trip.whish i could go since I know Long Beach fairly well.And plus its the N33,not 44.
Thanx for the correx...
Also wanna mention that there's a 33 out Far Rock at 6:20,6:45,and 7:20 PM.Those are the best times if your leaving from Jay St. at 5:30PM.By the way,why does it have to be so late? If it were earlier,I might go.
Yeah I wish it were earlier too! I live in Sea Cliff (the boonies of the North Shore) and getting home is real pain at that hour. I have to take the N15 to Mineola and then wait for the 10:20pm Oyster Bay train. Last N21 out of Flushing is at 9:50pm, and the last N27 out of Hempstead is 6:28pm. I wind up walking home at 11pm from the dark deserted Sea Cliff station. I'd get home earlier if I lived in NYC!
Still, as long as the weather that day is nice I'm probably going.Hey maybe I could raise money for a hotel room to stay the night in Long Beach!:-0
Hey, John, if it's warm enough save your money and sleep on the beach!
you mean take the N15 to Hempstead then take the N40/41 to Mineola.the 15 doesnt go to Mineola
The 15 does go to Mineola, just not Mineola terminal, it stops a few blocks away. Actually I do transfer to the 40/41 since the bus that I usually take (remember u gotta allow lots of extra time with LI Bus) terminates at Hempstead anyway.
Considering on the last LB trip, I left around 9pm, didn't get home till 11:30pm, Sea Cliff is one b** of a location.
I love the Long Beach trips but I just wish they were earlier.
If I could get to Flushing before 9:50pm from Long Beach, it wouldn't be so bad. The last N21 Glen Cove is at 9:50pm. Hicksville gets the last bus east of Roslyn, at 10:20pm.
a few blocks away where? I sure as hell never seen it around there before and I've taken that bus numerous times already and never seen it go anywhere near Mineola.
N15 stops at Old Country road and County Seat Dr, a 5 minute walk from the LIRR station.
Well something came up so I can't go anyway, so I hope you all have fun!
ok ok.I just looked at the schedule and your right it does serve Mineola but the only timepoint I saw for Mineola was Old Country Road/Washington Ave.Is that close to Mineola Term.?
Some people have to wait to finish WORK. 5:30pm is a nice time even if you get out at work at 6pm, an hour leave doesn't hurt much.
Anything much earlier I couldn't get out of work for.
Yeah I understand. I just happen to live in a pretty isolated area.
I wish they'd bring back the Sea Cliff trolley. It used to run from Sea Cliff LIRR to the village. It would connect with LIRR trains.
Why can't the village provide a bus at least? Funny how the station name is "Sea Cliff" but it's in Glen Cove, and Sea Cliff is a 30 minute walk away. Perhaps "Sea Cliff avenue" is a more appropraie name!
Nothing makes sense here in the boonies...
Dear Qtraindash,
There is bus that goes around through Sea Cliff. You should inquire about it at the Village Hall. I have seen it around town. As far as a trolley system goes, this was around when Sea Cliff was a small Methodist colony and that was the main transportation for that area. If fact, it was used to transport visitors from the steamboat to the main street area.
From Long Beach the only bus north is the #15, but you can catch the #4 to Jamaica at Rockville Center. For a bus buff a nice ride. I would suggest the LIRR at Long Beach.
In John's case going cross island is a pain.
V Train, I work till 5pm, but use 5:30 since there may be other 9 to 5ers who may be coming from Manhattan and/or points in Queens so the extra 1/2 hour gives enough leeway for all parties concerned to meet at Jay Street. Guess your not a 9to5er?
Could you be at Jay St. by 5pm?
Well with the possibility of roast pork at the end of this trip, I may just have to go. :-)
No matter WHERE you order...
Roast Pork Fried Rice is truly one MYSTICAL dish, brah.
This place is very nice, but didn't see a young people doing the serving last time :-(
what time is this trip going to end? i might wanna go, but i gotta work that night in Grand Central at 11
End it when you want. Look at the LIRR schedule from Long Beach as to the last train you can catch that will get you to GCT (via NYP) in time. You might even want to go to Flatbush for the easy transfer to the 4/5 to GCT.
The LIRR out of Long Beach should be going about 7:49; 8:53; 9:57; etc.
N33 at Mott Ave is 6:45; 7:20; 7:45; 8:20; 9:20; etc.
You should have no problems getting there by 11pm. Long Beach LIRR train is fast! You'll probably get to work sooner than I'll get home!
If you take the 8:48pm train you'll get to Penn at 9:41pm. I will take that same train this time, but will have to wait till 10:07pm for the yokel OB train back home. I could also take the N15 to Mineola, but I may do LIRR all the way this time.
With transit, GCT is much easier to get to, vs the lousy crap hole called Sea Cliff which I live in!
Hi Folks,
I was out on the West End line today and it looks like I may have a discrepancy in a couple of home signal numbers, and I was hoping some intrepid West Ender could fill me in.
What I'm looking for are the new signal numbers northbound, protecting the diamond crossover south of Bay Parkway (i.e. I have to try and find a W that I can see a little bit out of the front of!).
My prints are very difficult to read (about 5th generation), and I though I had X-D558-ball on D2 and either X-D562 or X-D582 ball on D4-track. Well, after two passes through there on R-68s this afternoon, I though I saw X-D562 on the middle track (D4) and 5X-D536-ball protecting the D2 to D4 crossover going north. Nothing in my prints looks even close to X-D536. Short of begging a T/O to open the door for 15 seconds south of Bay Parkway, is there any kind soul on board who can verify these signal numbers?
Thanks in advance.
p.s. Anybody willing to have a go at the 63rd St. mystery that I originally posted the other night?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
I have a cab view on the West End heading north out of Stillwell that I videotaped this summer (one of the Nostalgia trains). Send me your address and I'll send it to you. You should (I hope) be able to read the home signal numbers that you are trying to verify.
--Mark
I have a cab view on the West End heading north out of Stillwell that I videotaped this summer (one of the Nostalgia trains). Send me your address and I'll send it to you. You should (I hope) be able to read the home signal numbers that you are trying to verify.
Hi Mark,
Thanks very much for your kind offer (and I'll gladly take you up on it :-)), but these new signals were just put in service within the last few weeks and I suspect your tape might not have the new ones.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Hi Folks,
I was out at Rockaway Parkway this afternoon and I saw some interesting things going on, in addition to the new diamond crossover that looks to be about half complete.
They're signaling the yard, but what's really curious to me is what's going on with the signals on the main line between E. 105 and Rockaway Parkway. I stood at the front of the platform at E. 105, and walked the platform at Rock Park and noticed a number of new automatic and home signals waiting to be placed in service. Nothing too exciting there until I took a quick look at some contractor's chaining marks near these various home signals.
This is all considered "Line P" south of Broadway Junction, but the contractor's marks near each of these signals said "Q1" or "Q2" (and a couple said "Q3"!) and a stationing number! Am I correct in my belief that the Canarsie line is about to get re-stationed at the southern extremity? If so, what about the Northern extremity--between 6th and 8th Ave? Isn't it considered Line QW there (or is it now all Q)?
Thanks in advance to anyone who may have the answers to these mysteries.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
That's correct. The entire line is being re-chained, and QW
is being eliminated.
I suppose there's no point in retaining the "P" route letter any more, since the Fulton (chained from Park Row) is history, so there is no possibility of chaining number conflict any more, and they can chain the entire Canarsie Line from 8th Avenue.
Of course, if they extend the Canarsie Line west to Javits or NJ, as some would like, it'll be deja vu all over again.
I assume route "O", the Franklin Shuttle still retained the old chaining numbers when the line was rebuilt?
It is possible for someone to dumb this down so that we who aren't TA signal experts understand what y'all are talkin' about?
Each subway and elevated line has a route letter for signalling purposes. This has nothing whatever to do with the train's route letters--it is for signal and track location purposes.
For example, the route from Coney Island via Brighton, over the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and up the Broadway Line is BMT Route "A".
Each of these lines if also "chained." Chaining is a measurement from a fixed point, called "chaining zero" to a specific location along that line. The original IND has a single "chaining zero." The BMT and IRT have a number, often reflecting the history of the individual parts of the system.
The number one way a railfan becomes aware of this system is from the signals. For example, a signal showing a plate marked:
A2
210
would mean that it was one the Broadway-Brighton Line, track two, and approcmately 21,000 feet, or about four miles south of 57th and 7th Avenue, where chaining zero for the Brighton Line is located.
The reason this bears on the current discussion is that, because of its piecemeal history, the 14th Street-Canarsie Line has a number of route letters and a variety of "chaining zeros," so that the letters on the signals change as you move down the line, and the chaining numbers likewise jump around.
Now that they are putting in all new signals, it would appear that they are going to use a single letter "Q" and a single chaining zero, at 8th Avenue and 14th Street.
A2
210
would mean that it was one the Broadway-Brighton Line, track two, and approcmately 21,000 feet, or about four miles south of 57th and 7th Avenue, where chaining zero for the Brighton Line is located
Well, it could mean that...but this isn't the best example to give as there are several "Line A" designations. IND uses Line A as the 8th Avenue lines, and the BMT uses it for Broadway and Brighton. The Transit Museum stub and the WTC terminal are also Line A.
Just for hoots and grins, I looked in the books, and there are no A2/210 signals that I could easily find (I admit, I didn't look too hard)--but if it were on the IND, it would likely be somewhere east of the bulkhead past Pitkin Yard...maybe somewhere around 76th Street! < ducking >. Seriously, the bumper block east of Pitkin Yard is chaned as A2-411, and goes up from there, so....
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Well, it could mean that...but this isn't the best example to give as there are several "Line A" designations.
Ah, but earlier in the post I specifically said "BMT Line A."
Ahhh, now I understand. But you'd have thought this would have been done years ago. The current 14th St. line hasn't been changed since 1956 (when the Lefferts/14th St. line was eliminated).
I suppose there's no point in retaining the "P" route letter any more, since the Fulton (chained from Park Row) is history, so there is no possibility of chaining number conflict any more, and they can chain the entire Canarsie Line from 8th Avenue.
Actually, as far as I've been able to tell, Line P has always been just the Canarsie line from Broadway Junction to the end (Rock Park or whatever its southern terminus was before being cut back).
The Fulton El was Line K, indeed, chained from Park Row.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Line P is just the Canarsie Line, but sources say chaining zero is at Pitkin and Van Sinderin. If so, what is the chaining on "P" signals west of that point?
Line P is just the Canarsie Line, but sources say chaining zero is at Pitkin and Van Sinderin. If so, what is the chaining on "P" signals west of that point?
Line P basically starts at Pitkin and Van Sinderen and continues south from there (still does). The whole thread of the question revolved around whether or not Line P--the southern end of the Canarsie line--would be re-chained as Line Q, which is the bulk of the Canarsie line, with a chaining-zero point at 14th and 6th. The extension west to 8th AVe was chained as Line QW at one point, but I don't see any references to QW still on my prints any more.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
the southern end of the Canarsie line--would be re-chained as Line Q, which is the bulk of the Canarsie line, with a chaining-zero point at 14th and 6th. The extension west to 8th AVe was chained as Line QW at one point, but I don't see any references to QW still on my prints any more.
Earlier posts here indicate that they are rechaining the entire line, with the new chaining zero being 8th Avenue and 14th Street, so no more QW.
The new survey marks are on the walls, covered by tape.
Peter: If I remember correctly the 14 Street Line west of 6 Avenue reads Q-1W and Q-2W.
I believe that the loop track at Broklyn Bridge reads MM-3L also.
I might be mistaken though.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Peter: If I remember correctly the 14 Street Line west of 6 Avenue reads Q-1W and Q-2W
Hi Larry,
You are indeed correct about the extension West of 6th Ave, and the depiction on signal faces. I wasn't sure how it was handled until I read your post, so I looked in the books and sure enough, that's exactly how they're numbered. I'm willing to bet that they're either about to put in new signals or renumber the existing ones on the Western extension as well. That's one area that I haven't visually checked in about 6 months, so I'll do it for the next revision.3
Thanks for the clarification.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Yesterday(Monday) before I signed in at ENY I went looking thought the barn tracks. There were three new sets of R143's inside being preped for testing.
The Number were:
8221-8224
8225-8228
8229-8232
Later at night I saw set 8229-8232 hook up to 8201-8204 going over the Willy B heading to the city, while on my J trian going to Queens. 8229-8232 did have power to it so it was not just bing pulled. I guess that it might have been heading to Piken Yard to be ran on the test track out on the flats of the Rocks.
Robert
P.S. One more thing I did not see 8221-8228 at around 11:30pm Monday night anywere inside the yard. I think that were transferd to Caransie yard for burn in testing.
Robert
Listen to you Mr. "North-Eastern B division T/0" talking about the J train, the Willy B, and R-143's when all I have to look forward to is the trip to the Bronx everyday.
Kidding aside, are you OPTO qualified, and have you had the chance to operate the M OPTO on weekends?
I am OPTO qualified, but did not pick it this pick on the M. The only jobs that were left were the last jobs on Saturday and Sunday. They started at 7:15pm and 6:30pm respectly. That was to late for me to be getting home expecial on Monday moring, since my wife has to be on the 4:15am bus to get to by 6:00am. I did do OPTO on the G last pick all weekend.
Robert
Tell me more about these OPTO jobs in the B division. I am especially interested in those late jobs on the M line. I hope to be able to pick those next pick. I'd do anything to go to the B division. Late PM's on the M or G or 4 trips on the J from Jamaica to Chambers. It all sounds good to me. Are these late PM jobs high or low seniority? I'm hoping to be able to pick B division next pick.
"...G or 4 trips on the J from Jamaica to Chambers. It all sounds good to me."
You can have it. I fill out all of the VR bids on the sheet (76 chioces in order of preference) just to avoid those two. 3 on the G was not too bad with a conductor, but as OPTO, it's murder.
Hey, I have to start somewhere. It's still better than being on the board at 149/Mott at 2pm, picking up a penalty job at 3:30pm on the 2 line, and finishing at Flatbush after midnight.
As bad as those OPTO jobs on the G line are, I can still walk to work, work 8 hours, and walk back home. It's really a killer having to go to the Bronx all the time. But I realize that those G OPTO jobs are considered the worst jobs in the B division right now. One day I was at Continental, talking to a buddy in the crew room. I was telling him and some of his buddies that I am interested in transfering to the B, even if it means OPTO on the G. They all laughed at once. One guy was on his way to do an OPTO job on the G and went nuts hearing this. He was trying to find a way to get off the G line. Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side. Perhaps I'll feel different when I actually have to do some of these jobs.
Randy Kennedys musings on THE GHOSTS OF TRANSIT PLANS PAST
Peace,
ANDEE
Something in that article took me by surprise. It said that the idea for the Second Avenue Subway was first conceieved in 1920, not in 1925 or so as I'd thought. It looks like we all missed the 80th-anniversary "celebration" :(
Oh, speaking of things in today's Times, we can add Lisa Nussbaum to the list of people who should be using rubber sheets.
If only the MTA had seen reason, they would have restored the Far Rockaway LIRR line, and Bombardier's junk would never have been needed.
Idiots.
"If only the MTA had seen reason, they would have restored the Far Rockaway LIRR line, and Bombardier's junk would never have been needed."
They still would have needed a connection from Howard Beach to the terminals, which is where the accident occurred. As has been discussed, heavy rail doesn't make that much sense when you have many closely spaced stops.
The point has been made in this thread that where a subway goes right into the airport (as at Atlanta, and also Chicago, I believe) it gets good ridership figures. That is certainly true at British airports too. If the subway (whether using the former LIRR ROW or not) went right into JFK, it would presumably terminate at a station somewhere in the middle of the terminal complex. The function of taking people from terminal to terminal, to and from long-term parking, car-rental locations, etc., would be performed by another system altogether -- an internal airport transit, free of charge, probably automatic in operation, with frequent stops. The much-vaunted "one-seat ride" is only to an airport subway station, not to every location on the airport. It would still have been a good thing to have. Whether it could have been achieved given the "turf wars" of the PA and the MTA in New York is another question. Despite the recent tragic setback, I still think the AirTrain will be a good second-best alternative, and I look forward to using it in 2003!
The point has been made in this thread that where a subway goes right into the airport (as at Atlanta, and also Chicago, I believe) it gets good ridership figures.
Actually, these figures are abysmal by NYCT standards - around 16,000 total passengers daily and a turnstile count of only 8,000.
"Actually, these figures are abysmal by NYCT standards - around 16,000 total passengers daily and a turnstile count of only 8,000."
...as usual, taken entirely out of context and used dishonestly.
The figures are very good for Atlanta standards (which is the appropriate measure), and the line has been very successful at easing congestion at the airport (meaning it helps manage growth - Atlanta is the country's busiest).
NYCT and LIRR should see higher numbers than that.
Atlanta is the busiest airport only in terms of airside movements. Most people go to Atlanta and head straight back out again. Landside access doesn't do diddly squat for those transfer paxs (whereas the interterminal people mover makes a lot of sense).
16,000 is pretty crappy. 16,000 daily riders is a number that can easily be handled by light rail. If you think they are good numbers, and successful numbers, then the decision to use heavy rail for MARTA was wrong.
AEM7
"16,000 is pretty crappy. 16,000 daily riders is a number that can easily be handled by light rail. If you think they are good numbers, and successful numbers, then the decision to use heavy rail for MARTA was wrong."
Pretty crappy for NEW YORK. Not crappy for Atlanta. And MARTA was not built exclusively for the Airport. The NorthSouth line is used for lots of other destinations beside the airport. MARTA decided to anchor the line at the Airport - a wise move.
True, although even with rush hour traffic to all other destinations, I suspect MARTA is more of a light rail than a heavy rail.
Atlana has only 2 and a half subway lines. Nicely designede, nicely built, with decent bus connections. I lived there for six months while at the CDC. Atlanta still is a car-dependent place, so getting 16,000 people to use the train to go to the airport is a major victory. The fact that the incoming trains are full show that the transfer to the circulator works well.
I only hope that the circulator at JFK will be able to handle crowds. While JFK is not as busy as Hartsfield, more people are coming from the outside to enter the airport, and many of them will be on transit - there is a much larger potential market for Airtrain than in Atlanta currently.
"MARTA decided to anchor the line at the Airport - a wise move"
If possible, it is always a good idea to have transit lines "anchored" at both ends with major destinations -- that way you get two-way traffic in both peaks. Despite Stephen's gloomy figures, the airport is the obvious out-of-town anchor for a transit line. In London, Heathrow is the second largest employment centre after the central area of London itself, and I suspect that is true in many metropolitan areas: if you get a good proportion of the airport employees using transit, the airline passengers are almost a bonus!
NYCT and LIRR should see higher numbers than that.
Not according to the PA's DEIS. Their figure for use (5,000) is considerably lower than the 16,000 that I estimated.
My estimate is based on the actual turnstile count for O'Hare which is around 8,000. N.B. the major determinant is how many people will be using the airport - NOT the surrounding population density. Also note that O'Hare services approximately 50% more passengers than JFK.
BTW, in the PA's DEIS, most of AirTrain's users will be arriving by car and using the long term parking lot. That may do something for congestion within the airport but will not help relieve congestion on the VanWyck or Belt.
"Their figure for use (5,000) is considerably lower than the 16,000 that I estimated."
The PA is estimating a far higher crowd than that. If that came off an EIS, you had better post it (and post its context). It sounds like you are taking credit for somenbody else' estimate.
If that came off an EIS, you had better post it (and post its context). It sounds like you are taking credit for somenbody else' estimate.
Let me quote from "The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey JFK International Airport Light Rail System", "Written Reevaluation/Technical Report on Changes to the Proposed JFK Airport Access Program", July 1996, Exhibit ES-2: Projected Average Daily LRS in 2003
Beginning of direct quote
Type of Trip
Ground access passenger trips, which are movements between JFK and other parts of New York Metropolitan area:
Jamaica Passengers: 4,417
Howard Beach Passengers 1,165
Total Passengers 5,582
Ground access employee trips, which are movements between JFK and other parts of the New York Metropolitan area:
Jamaica Employees 2,628
Howard Beach Employees 2,775
Total Employees 5,403
Passenger trips t/from long-term parking 1,214
Employee trips to/from long-term parking 15,181
Trips to/from the rental car pick up/drop off area 1,752
Trips between terminal buildings at JFK 4,748
TOTAL DAILY TRIPS 33,880
End of Direct Quote
In rough numbers their estimates for both the Jamaica and Howard Beach is 11,000 which is well below my turnstile estimate if 8,000. You will also note that the majority of users will be arriving by car, as I also stated.
If you have any questions about the relevance of the LIRR, they also estamate only 3,000 of the 11,000 daily trips will be via LIRR. Of the 3,000 LIRR transfers only 547 are from Nassau and 342 are from Suffolk. These figures are stated in an unnumbered table "Daily Ground Access to and from JFK Airport by LRS Station and Geographic Area" in the appendix.
I must admit, this is one case (rarew though they may be) where you have it right.
I apologize for the barb. Stop sneaking up on me like that :0)
"BTW, in the PA's DEIS, most of AirTrain's users will be arriving by car and using the long term parking lot. That may do something for congestion within the airport but will not help relieve congestion on the VanWyck or Belt."
OK for starters.
AirTrain will only be in service for a portion of 2003. I will be watching with interest to see how business picks up for it in 04.
There's no reason that, as the service proves itself, that usage won't pick up. And I personally airport trips by LIRR are very conservatively estimated (we'll see a lot more than predicted) - because unlike the subway, the LIRR's stations are, on the whole very baggage friendly (being ADA compliant). Subway trips will increase, too, especially as the subway's facilities improve.
Adds amenities like ticket kiosks and baggage check, and the numbers will continue to rise.
Another big factor, of course, has nothing to do with cars or AirTrain: the economy, the chance of war in the Middle East, and the state of travel as a function of the economy.
AirTrain will only be in service for a portion of 2003.
The DEIS contemplated that it would be in service for the entire year and the estimates are based on that assumption.
And I personally airport trips by LIRR are very conservatively estimated (we'll see a lot more than predicted) - because unlike the subway, the LIRR's stations are, on the whole very baggage friendly (being ADA compliant).
The problem with LIRR access from Nassau and Suffolk are the LIRR's schedule. It is a one-way service for residents. The LIRR's schedule is completely useless for out of town passengers whose destination might be on the Island. The other problem is train frequency. Nobody will rely on a system that will cause a 1 hour wait for a off peak train because a plane was 5 minutes late.
Adds amenities like ticket kiosks and baggage check, and the numbers will continue to rise.
I think that 9/11 has killed the idea of offsite baggage checkin. I've wondered why onsite airline terminals are necessary. Freddie Laker's checkin counter was in Rego Park; TCAT is a great convenience and I found the duty free shops there to be better than those at Narita.
Another big factor, of course, has nothing to do with cars or AirTrain: the economy, the chance of war in the Middle East, and the state of travel as a function of the economy.
The PA's figures were based on an average passenger growth rate of 2.5% from the early 1990's. I don't think they have quite made that.
The sad fact is that arriving/departing passengers and the personnel that service are not by themselves a sufficient market to cover operating costs (forget about the $1.9 billion capital costs). One hope would be to provide additional facilities within the airport to attract city residents. Europe's busiest airport, Frankfurt, has done this. However, I don't know if government authorities would be willing to open a branch of Doktor Mueller's Sex Emporium over here.
These data of Stephen's seem to be casting doubt on the economic viability of running rail transit to airports at all; the AirTrain technology isn't more expensive than conventional heavy rail subway, is it?
Yet in many countries around the world, rail transit (whether surface trains, subway, or light rail) has been extended into airports, and it seems to carry heavy loadings, and doesn't seem to have disappointed its operators in terms of the financial results. It obviously helps if a rail line is already near by, so that only a short stretch of new line has to be built: but then, Howard Beach is right on the JFK perimeter. The optimum was probably London Gatwick, where the airport terminal was built right alongside a pre-existing main line, so a new station had to be built but no new ROW was needed.
These data of Stephen's seem to be casting doubt on the economic viability of running rail transit to airports at all; the AirTrain technology isn't more expensive than conventional heavy rail subway, is it?
Yet in many countries around the world, rail transit (whether surface trains, subway, or light rail) has been extended into airports, and it seems to carry heavy loadings, and doesn't seem to have disappointed its operators in terms of the financial results. It obviously helps if a rail line is already near by, so that only a short stretch of new line has to be built: but then, Howard Beach is right on the JFK perimeter. The optimum was probably London Gatwick, where the airport terminal was built right alongside a pre-existing main line, so a new station had to be built but no new ROW was needed.
"These data of Stephen's seem to be casting doubt on the economic viability of running rail transit to airports at all;"
No, they don't. The viability of the service will be a combination of employee, passenger and non-passenger business trips (with a tiny sprinkling of railfans). It will be as viable as any other part of the transit system.
"The AirTrain technology isn't more expensive than conventional heavy rail subway, is it?"
$1.9 billion for over 8 miles of track - about $250 million per mile. You'll see somemore millions spent after the recent test run derailment.
$1.9 billion for over 8 miles of track - about $250 million per mile. You'll see somemore millions spent after the recent test run derailment.
Assume that debt service is around 10% per annum and we have 34,000 daily passengers. That comes out to $15.31 per trip.
"Assume that debt service is around 10% per annum and we have 34,000 daily passengers. That comes out to $15.31 per trip."
The PA pays about 4.5% on its debt, and they're probably depreciating over 50 years. So closer to 6% per annum.
`And what if there are 50,000 trips in 2005?
And what if there are 50,000 trips in 2005?
That's a compound growth rate of 21%. I'd say turning the airport into an office park with a branch of Doktor Mueller's is more likely. :-)
You can poke fun at it, if you like.
The growth of ridership will be influenced by:
a large potential usage
recovery of the economy (granted, that's not guaranteed).
The largest growth of ridership can reasonably be expected in the first few years - so 21% gain is very realistic. Tewn years intobthe service, a 21% year-over-year gain is not realistic.
Might I presume from your repeated attempts to increase the estimated use of AirTrain that you are also appalled at the surprisingly low projected use by outside passengers using mass transit (7,000)? Might I also presume that you would not find any comfort in increased use should it come from people finding the long-term parking facilities more convenient and electing to use them instead of taxis, airport limousines, etc?
If people find AirTrain useful from Long-Term Parking, that's fine with me.
But I believe its true value will be to make transit to the airport more attractive. And the more people who use it that way, the more open slots there are in Long Term Parking.
I don't have to take comfort in anything. I believe in the concept, but AirTrain will have to prove itself.
If nobody rides it, it will be disappointing. Since the other formulas for bringing riders to the airport would not work any better (and indeed at least one is unavailable period), it would be a sign of ineffectiveness of transit per se to JFK.
But that's unlikely.
The PA pays about 4.5% on its debt, and they're probably depreciating over 50 years.
That's for debt backed by bridge tolls. They may have to pay more for AirTrain - they can't back it up by the fares.
Another big factor, of course, has nothing to do with cars or AirTrain: the economy, the chance of war in the Middle East, and the state of travel as a function of the economy.
The PA's figures were based on an average passenger growth rate of 2.5% from the early 1990's. I don't think they have quite made that.
To put it mildly! In fairness to the Port Authority, they scarcely could have been expected to foresee all that happened. If AirTrain ends up as a white-elephant train to nowhere - or, more precisely, a train to an empty airport - it won't be the PA's fault.
Bad timing also comes into play. Had AirTrain been in the planning stage on 9/11, or maybe in the early construction stages, the PA might have been able to cancel it without too much of a financial hit. Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist. It's similar to what happened with two new terminals at JFK. Delta's new terminal was still in the planning stage, and was cancelled soon after 9/11. Construction was well underway on American's new $1 billion terminal, however, and the airline has had to continue with the work even though the terminal likely will be redundant once opened.
"Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist."
"No longer exist" would be a pretty strong overstatement. It's not as though Kennedy Airport is about to be shut down for lack of traffic. The traffic load may be 10%, 20%, or even 30% below projections, but there's still plenty of people taking planes at Kennedy. And the next time traffic grows again, Kennedy will have a new, small competitive edge over LGA, namely it'll be easier to get to without a car.
Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist.
"No longer exist" would be a pretty strong overstatement. It's not as though Kennedy Airport is about to be shut down for lack of traffic. The traffic load may be 10%, 20%, or even 30% below projections, but there's still plenty of people taking planes at Kennedy. And the next time traffic grows again, Kennedy will have a new, small competitive edge over LGA, namely it'll be easier to get to without a car.
Airport and airline traffic has long been cyclical. Even so, there's strong reason to believe that the current slump, especially at JFK and other New York-area airports, represents a long-term structural change rather than a response to short-term economic conditions. While no one knows the precise numbers or percentages, it has become obvious that a significant portion of the people who used to travel by air have sworn off flying forever. It should go without saying that this portion is higher in New York than elsewhere. Given the economics of the airline industry, even a 10% drop will have serious consequences, and 10% is probably a low estimate, especially for New York. So yes, it looks as if AirTrain will never serve the passenger volumes for which it was designed. Whether that will be enough to make the system a white elephant is yet to be seen, but the possibility cannot be ignored.
A 10% drop in traffic is likely to be a 10% drop in AirTrain use. Unfortunate for the train, but not a tragedy.
If the AirTrain was a great idea for the projected use, it's not a disastrous idea for 10% less use. If it's a terrible idea for the probable reduced use, it wasn't a wonderful idea for 11% more use.
There's another factor at play here.
If the PA wants to ease congestion at the airport, which is, combined with distance, a problem for people consider it can jack up prices for parking and then reduce AirTrain fares, or offer special discounts specifically for LIRR usage.
Since the agency controls LGA as well, it's not a big deal to play with access pricing there to make JFK more attractive.
And then of course, there are other things: for example a hotel/conference center in Jamaica, accessible through AirTrain, which would attract a specific kind of business to JFK, all the more useful even for people with longer layovers.
For people who disdain or misunderstand the neighborhood (like Peter Rosa, for example :0)), the situation of the hotel close to the AirTrain terminal makes it a self-contained kind of experience.
This would be similar to Atlantic City. The hotels are on a gaudy strip; off the strip are slums (much worse off than Jamaica ever was), but the revelers are really not very aware of their surrounding neighborhood.
"Given the economics of the airline industry, even a 10% drop will have serious consequences, and 10% is probably a low estimate, especially for New York."
Will that, by itself, relieve traffic jams on the Van Wyxck, or airport parking problems? What about the compounding effect that has on security-related delays? Will that address the need for transit for people who still fly?
Has La Guardia become a much better place to fly from because of the drop in traffic?
" So yes, it looks as if AirTrain will never serve the passenger volumes for which it was designed. "
False, unless the volume of traffic at the airport is so low that there are few or no delays or inconveniences involved in using your car.
Air travel was down well before 9/11. It was the airlines' propensity to send out planes with 30% occupancy factors that made 9/11 possible. I don't blame the PA for failing to see that a single spectacular event would expose the weakness of their growth assumptions. I do find fault with the precision of their use estimates. They really had no idea of what demand would be. However, they would not let a simple matter like that stand in the way of administering $1.9 billion of somebody else's money.
It was the airlines' propensity to send out planes with 30% occupancy factors that made 9/11 possible.
That's a rather unwarranted assumption. Before 9/11, passengers were unlikely to resist hijacking attempts because the events were not considered to be life-threatening - at the very worst, the passengers would be held onboard for a few days as ransoms were negotiated. It really didn't matter how crowded a particular flight might be.
It really didn't matter how crowded a particular flight might be.
One would have thought that the hijackers would have had to scale the size of their operation proportionaly to the plane's occupancy. Had the planes been operating at 60% I would have expected them to have a staff of 9 on board each plane instead of 5. There may have been more problems in getting aisle seats and a greater possibility of detection beforehand. Remember the hijackers supposedly sought out flights with low occupancy rates in preference to more popular flights later in the day which would have resulted in far more loss of life.
"Bad timing also comes into play. Had AirTrain been in the planning stage on 9/11, or maybe in the early construction stages, the PA might have been able to cancel it without too much of a financial hit. Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist."
Nonsensical, illogical. The need for AirTrain will disappear when the need for JFK disappears. When the PA decides that LaGuardia Airport and Newark Airport can handle all incoming and outgoing NY flights, then AirTrain can and should be cancelled.
Of course, then JFK will be turned into an office park, so you'll need new subway service anyway.
New York City is the world's most important metropolis. JFK is its no. 1 airport. Most other major metropolises have rail access to their major airports already (Chicago, London, Amsterdam, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, ...), and so do many lesser places. Over thirty years ago JFK's road traffic was already gridlocked. It has a subway station on its perimeter fence. It has another major transit interchange station three miles away.
Are people here really saying that, because of the downturn in air traffic over the last year, which is probably only a temporary downturn, JFK now doesn't need rail transit access? Oh, puh..lease!
Or could it be that a strong dislike for Bombardier and an ingrained belief that any kind of rail transit that isn't a proper NY subway line is an inferior substitute have combined to cloud people's judgement? We're all here because we are enthusiasts for rail rapid transit, remember?
Bad timing also comes into play. Had AirTrain been in the planning stage on 9/11, or maybe in the early construction stages, the PA might have been able to cancel it without too much of a financial hit. Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist.
Nonsensical, illogical. The need for AirTrain will disappear when the need for JFK disappears.
JFK functioned for over 40 years with no AirTrain. For much of that time, the airport was busier than it's likely to be in the foreseeable future.
"JFK functioned for over 40 years with no AirTrain."
Not well. In fact the lack of efficient access to the airport was one of the biggest reasons JFK could not reach its full potential in terms of air traffic generation. JFK could have taken a lot more business away from La Guardia otherwise.
"For much of that time, the airport was busier than it's likely to be in the foreseeable future."
Also not true. JFK is the number one international airport in the Northeast, and its traffic levels depend heavily international traffic. When that rebounds, JFK's business will rise. And refer back to the above comment.
JFK is the number one international airport in the Northeast, and its traffic levels depend heavily international traffic. When that rebounds, JFK's business will rise.
See my response to AIM elsewhere in this thread. This decline may be long-term and structural, not just a passing phenomenon. That doesn't bode well for AirTrain's usefulness.
I saw your response. Not entirely relevant to what AirTrain actually does, and your predictions of little or no future growth are not sound.
Yes, people are flying less. But in New York, the effect is disproportional in terms of trips along the Northeast Corridor. Other trips not convenient by Amtrak or Greyhound will rebound with the economy, though the pricing will not be the same. It's not that JFK will have a permanent loss of passengers; it's that those passengers will be served by low-cost carriers charging lower fares. This does not make AirTrain any less valuable, especially in improving JFK at an airport compared to other regional airports.
"The problem with LIRR access from Nassau and Suffolk are the LIRR's schedule. It is a one-way service for residents. The LIRR's schedule is completely useless for out of town passengers whose destination might be on the Island. The other problem is train frequency. Nobody will rely on a system that will cause a 1 hour wait for a off peak train because a plane was 5 minutes late."
That is true for some lines but not true for others. Off-peak frequencies for many trains is 30 minutes. It will be up to MTA to decide if airport service warrants changes to its schedule. You have a point there.
Note that frequency of trains in the city direction sufficiently high, so it almost doesn't matter which train you catch. \
"I think that 9/11 has killed the idea of offsite baggage checkin"
Nonsense. As long as bags are X-rayed or otherwise examined (by bomb-sniffing dogs or machines) prior to being loaded on the airplane, it makes absolutely zero difference where the initial checkin occurs. The airlines understand that.
""
"Whether it could have been achieved given the "turf wars" of the PA and the MTA in New York is another question. Despite the recent tragic setback, I still think the AirTrain will be a good second-best alternative, and I look forward to using it in 2003!"
There's no difference between AirTrain and the others. In fact, AirTrain will be faster because you have to transfer to the circulator anyway, and AirTrain will run non-stop 60 mph from Jamaica to the terminal area.
You have to remember that the MTA didn't exist in the 1950's when the City purchased the LIRR Rockaway line from a bankrupt LIRR. Of course, the City was short-sighted and did not think there was a need for a rail-link to what was then called Idlewild Airport. It's very likely that homes and backyards spread into parts of the abandoned ROW during the 50's and much of the 60's, before the MTA was established. It's not the MTA's fault. Blame the short-sightedness of the City and NY State governments and the Port Authority for not realizing the value of a rail connection to the airport early on.
And even if they did have the foresight to retain the whole Rockaway line, who's to say that "Bombardier's junk" wouldn't be running on those rails one day?
"If only the MTA had seen reason, they would have restored the Far Rockaway LIRR line, and Bombardier's junk would never have been needed.
Idiots. "
Did you read any of the threads about the Rockaway Line? Do you know how viable (or non-viable) the Rockaway Line actually is? Do you know if the Rockaway Line can be used at all without additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan (it cannot, but East Side Access is slowly remedying that)?
Have you visited the Rockaway ROW, or know anything about the condition of the ROW? Do you knowhow much it would cost to revive it? Do you know which politicians you can count on to support it? Would the Governor sign off on that project?
Is there room in the Capital Plan for it?
Did you attend hearings about AirTrain where there was some discussion about the Rockaway Line?
Do you think it's a good idea to call somebody an idiot when you haven't demonstrated you know anything about your subject?
I heard that the TA just out the order to 2000 cars. This will replase all cars up to the R44's. Some R44's or even some M1's will be rebelt to by used on SIRR. These are only a thing that I heard from some other TA employes.
I am not saying this is the facts so don't jump down my back saying that it is. IT IS JUST WHAT I HEARD. If anyone else heard this to back me up then please post..
Robert
I ment to say up the order to 2000 cars not out the other
Robert
M1's for SIR has been a rumor since I was in Tottenville HS (on staten island). Never happen IMHO.
and it never will. the M-1 and M-3 cars will be phased out starting late 2003 early 2004
not M3s... also not all M1s will go
Sounds like crewroom scuttlebut, most of which turns out to be completely baseless.
David
Most likey.
Robert
What is a "chate?"
Talk, sorry i am a bad speller. I should you a spellchecker before posting.
Robert
I've read posts on this board from people in lots of different places. I'm curious to find out how many different places subtalkers come from, what systems they ride, and how well various transit systems are represented. I know New York is probably home to more subtalkers than any other place, and MTA is the best represented transit system here, but I'm curious about all the other systems regularly ridden by the people here.
Myself, I'm from Philadelphia and I ride SEPTA trolleys and the Market-Frankford line every day.
Mark
Depends on how you define home, I guess. First and foremost I consider North Carolina to be my home, as I've lived there for over twenty years, most of that just outside a little town called Bunn (35 miles east-northeast of Raleigh, 25 miles west of Rocky Mount). On the other hand, I also live in Eatontown, New Jersey part of the time... right near Little Silver on the North Jersey Coast Line. But I grew up in the shadow of the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge, near the New York Central station, I spent my summers in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania (third house up from the Lackawanna yard), and I've also lived in a number of other places, including two major transit-friendly cities where I rode rail transit - the Barcelona Metro and the 'L' in Chicago - on a daily basis.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Home is Roslyn Heights, Long Island -- Albertson station to be exact.
But I live in suburban Boston, and ride the MBTA Commuter Rail (Lowell and Attleboro lines for the most part), and all of the rapid transit lines.
No mystery where I call home. I'm a Californian. I live in a very nice town called Arcadia. It has nice parks, great schools, an Arboretum, and a great shopping mall. I wouldn't live anywhere else.
Except where the Sea Beach line runs, where the Mets play baseball, where the Cyclone runs,and where egg creams are served. Does any of tha exist in Arcadia? I don't think so. ;)
You've got be by the palotas there my friend. I can get egg creams in South Pasadena at a place called the "The Fair Oaks Pharmacy." Of course, it is run by Steve Miller, a refugee from Brooklyn and a die hard Yankee fan. As for the others, no Cyclone. We have a lot of roller coasters at Disneyland, Magic Mountain, and Knotts Berry Farm, but as far as I'm concerned there is no other ride in the world like the Cyclone. No Sea Beach either and we are stuck with the Dodgers who I despise. Ironic since I was once a fanatical Dodger fan when they played somewhere else.
"get egg creams in South Pasadena at a place called the "The Fair Oaks Pharmacy." Of course, it is run by Steve Miller, a refugee from Brooklyn and a die hard Yankee fan.".?
does it taste like ice cream ??""egg creams"" is it like st louis
mo. "frozen custard" ..??.............................!
also how it the construction of the PASADENA CA. GOLD LINE ....
coming along these dayz ??
any progress 2 report ?
The Gold Line is on schedule the last time I checked. An egg cream has no eggs. It is made with chocolate syrup, milk and seltzer water. It is yummy and Miller knows how to make them since he is a native Brooklynite.
Then it MUST use U-Bet chocolate syrup!
Of course, you could always lace an egg cream with Ex-lax if you ever wanted to get back at someone.:)
I live in New Jesery and work with the NYC MTA as you can see as a T/O.
Robert
I live in the New York-occupied City of Brooklyn.
Until 2001, I rode the IND-occupied Brighton BMT.
Well, I currently live in the University of Rochester in Rochester NY, but I really live in downtown Manhattan, Brooklyn Bridge Station.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
DaWheel, what is your major and was term are you in? Keep up your studies and make sure you get that degree.
I'm majoring in neuroscience and possibly minoring in computer science.
-Dan
Good luck in your studies. Sounds like you picked one rigorous course of study.
Been to Nick Tahou's yet? The Garbage Plate theree has the soul of a New Yorker....
I live in Oakland Gardens, Queens. I usually use the (F) at Jamaica-179th Street. I sometimes catch the same at Briarwood-Van Wyck. Or for a change of pace I will go to Flushing-Main St or Willets Point-Shea Stadium for the (7).
I was born in Auburndale, Queens. However I grew up in suburban Levittown, New York. My home LIRR station was Hicksville, which could be accessed via the N49 or N50 bus at Newbridge Road and Flamingo Road/Levittown Parkway.
:-) Andrew
Home is Centennial, Colorado, newly incorporated city on the south side in Metro Denver. I'm five miles from either the Littleton-Mineral or Littleton-Downtown light rail stops, but usually drive up to Englewood to avoid paying express fare when I do take light rail.
Centennial has been home for the past 22 years. I'm a South Bend native, Notre Dame subway alumnus, who lived in Jersey for six years and in Connecticut for seven.
Baltimore. Home to America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum.
Come on Dan, you can ever do better than that. Your town is the home of the greatest baseball player ever, the immortal Babe.
Did you realize it was 75 years ago on September 30 that the Babe hit his 60th home run of the season?
What's going on people, this is Light Rail Chic shoutin' out of Philly and I frequently use the subway-surface trolleys (Rt13 & 34) everyday to/from Center City.
LightRailChic :-)
i am from union nj
Whoa.
Nice to know we have a 'CHIC'.
I'm a native New Yorker living in Manhattan with dreams about being somewhere else...NYCTA is now my home. CI Peter
I live in the best place to be a subway fan. Bedford Park, u got the Concourse, Jerome Yards within a short walk, the 4 and D express lines is an added bonus. So for other railfans like me who live in the area know the value.
I live in Bedford Park also. You forgot Metro Norths Botanical Garden stop.
Peace,
ANDEE
I call Manhattan home, although I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I am a frequent traveler of MTA NYC Transit Subways, MTA Metro-North Railroad's Hudson Division, NJ Transit's Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast, and Atlantic City Lines, and MTA Long Island Railroad's Long Beach Line and just recent, the Babylon Line to Freeport. I should also include SEPTA R7 Trenton Line, which I use to reach Philadelphia for my treks to Atlantic City. I use PATH once in a while and every 3 months, I use Amtrak's Empire Service to Albany.
Avondale (Phoenix) Arizona
I was born in Elmhurst Hospital in Queens and I lived in Flushing untill I was 5. Then i moved to Bay Shore , Long Island which now i call home. The nearest 2 LIRR Stations to me are Bay Shore and Deer Park Stations.
Voorheesville, NY (CP-VO) ... the local subway is Amtrak. :)
I'm from N. Providence, R.I. and usually ride the MBTA in Boston going to games or shows.
I live in Ottawa, Canada's gorgeous National Capital. Our transit system is OC Transpo, which is mostly a bus transit system. However, we do have the O-Train, which is a short light rail line run with Bombardier Talent series vehicles. Supplemented by that is an extensive busway system (called the Transitway) which spans the city. At rush hour, no matter where you live in Ottawa, you have a one seat bus ride to the downtown core via this busway and the local freeways.
Garden City South, LI - but originally from Ridgewood, Queens
Ex new yorker. Live in Wilmington,DE Ride occasionally SEPTA regional rail and DART buses.
Wow, it's been a while since I've posted here.
I'm from Philadelphia and ride the MFL, BSS and Route 10 trolley every day for work.
Born and raised in NYC. Lived in The Bronx for the first 30 years of my life. 5 years ago I relocated to the Wash, DC area. I now live in Silver Spring, MD on Da Red Line.
Wayne
Brooklyn, NY.
Originally from Yonkers, NY. Also lived in the Bronx, and New Brunswick, NJ, and Upstate NY (college). And Tulsa, OK (that was one hell of a recession in the 1970s).
I'm from South Jersey (Camden County). I played around and on the PRR tracks in Westmont that connected Philly via the Delair Bridge with the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines in Haddonfield (now NJT Atlantic City line, single track). Traffic there was exclusively PRSL passenger trains, with PRR and Reading steam engines until Baldwin diesels started mixing in, then we moved.
For 15 years I commuted on PATCO, Market St subway/elevated, P&W interurban to Radnor until my job moved.
Now live in Lindenwold and drive to work, but take PATCO/BSS to a Phillies game every year and railfan SEPTA from time to time.
I live in Suffolk County, NY. My daily routine involves the LIRR from Medford station and then the IRT from Penn Station to Houston Street.
I live in Marietta, GA. Born in Manhasset, NY and lived in Middle Village, Queens for five years.
Any General Sherman fans down there by some chance?
Up until about a month ago, I lived in Chicago. When I first began posting on SubTalk, I lived near the Fullerton stop on the CTA Red Line, so that's naturally the line I took most often. But then, I'm very familiar with pretty much the entire CTA system. (I also rode the Metra / UP North Line everyday for a year when I was still living in the suburban wastelands of Lake County.)
In the early summer of 2000, I moved to Boston. I lived in Brookline and worked in Cambridge, so my commute usually involved the "C" branch of the Green Line and the Red Line, although sometimes I'd take the "B" or "D" Green Line branches. I was fortunate to live in an area where all three were an option for me, because being tied to one branch would have really sucked.
Three months later, I moved back to Chicago and ended up living near the Berwyn stop on the Red Line. But I soon got myself a car and got a job out in the suburbs, so my usage of transit took a nosedive.
About a month ago I moved to Collingswood, New Jersey, a few miles outside Philadelphia. I live about a 20-minute walk away from the Collingswood PATCO station, although I typically drive most places I need to go. The only times I've really used PATCO in the past month is if I need to get to the airport (I'll take it to 8th/Market and transfer to the SEPTA R1 train at Market East).
Now that I live in South Jersey, I'm lucky enough to be able to visit New York City fairly regularly. I typically drive to Hamilton, NJ and take the NJT Northeast Corridor line, although I've also been known to drive all the way into the city. When I'm in NYC, the West Side IRT seems to be the line I use most often. I guess you could say 34th Street / Penn Station is my "home" station in NYC.
I also spent a week in London last year, where Victoria was my "home" station.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Round, round, get around, you get around. Do you also take your car because it's never been beat?
Ossining NY reporting.
Also a resident of West 225th on 9.
I currently live on Long Island. I take the LIRR to Penn Station and then take the E train to Lex. and 53rd Street.
I previously lived in The Bronx (1951-1956) rode the 4 train with my parents on a frequent basis. Also rode the D train from time to time. Moved to Canarsie (1956 to 1959) and rode the L train. Moved to Far Rockaway (1959-1979) and rode the E train in rush hours (HH other times) and eventually the A train with the famous R-10's.
But you never rode the Sea Beach, the origional #4 train. That means you really didn't ride the real thing. If you don't ride the Sea Beach you just don't know what riding a real subway train is like. Too bad.
Currently I reside in the Flatlands section of Crooklyn, U.S.A.
Whether I like it or not (hear this SubBus!) I am trapped into riding the A Division (IRT) to commute to/from work every single day!
I was born a Brighton Line buff, but have gotten to appreciate the rest of the system over the years.
Tell you what Doug, I'll make you an honorary member of the Sea Beach fan club. How's that sound?
Thanks for theo offer....I'll consider it....
Thanks for theo offer....give me some time to consider it...
No WONDER Douggie is all so peppy and wide-eyed
when we get him near IND equipment....
(i.e. August' trip to Beaches of Rock & Long)
Queens.
Are you still a Mets fan? I was born in Queens, too. Long Island City to be exact. That must make you a classy guy.
Yeah, I grew up going to Shea Stadium. I still live nearby. Just took my long bike ride around Flushing Meadows Park. I start at the entrance at Grand Central and LIE, go north under the overpass, up the long road past the towers, then pass the tennis stadium, LIRR, go around Shea Stadium, come back south, pass tennis stadium, over the World's Fair overpass which overlooks Corona Yard(gotta check if any new cars have arrived, or if I see anyone I know), back down through the park and once around the lake in the south side where the Aquacade Stadium and AMF Monorail once stood.
Where in Long Island City did you live? I love Long Island City. Especially the area near Vernon-Jackson. It was always fun to check out the LIRR Long Island Railroad Station, and nearby abandoned tracks.
I lived in Queensbridge for over ten years. Went to PS1. I knew a lot of guys around Vernon-Jackson that I went to school with. Tom Iapoce, John DiCicco, Tom Lotito, all dagos like me. There was also Terrence Donnelly, an Irish guy and a load of laughs. QB is now the pits and PS1 doesn't exist anymore, and the area is no longer mainly Italian but it is still fun to visit the area, as I will when I come to New York next week.
My grandfather went to PS 1 (probably around WWI)
Hey, I love the Mets, but it's tough being a Mets fan now and even tought admitting it.
I still wear my Mets jacket when I'm in the city. Makes me look like a local resident.
As for being a Mets fan, we have to stick it out. Maybe next year a fresh start and the key players playing like they are capable of---Vaughn, Burnitz, Alomar, Cedeno. We must resign Alfonso, too. As far as PS1 is concerned, I loved it there. Made many friends and had a great experience. We moved to Astoria and I had to go to PS10 before we moved to California. I hated it there. There was also this one bully who liked to give me a bad time. I even tried to look him up on the my first two visits back but no luck. I really hope to run into him some day and for his sake he should hope I don't.
P.S. 1 does exist. And it's a popular location for art galleries and other Manhattany things to do. In the early 90's, there was a movement to make the area around P.S. 1 a neighborhood for transplanted Manhattanites. They mostly occupied the few existing brown stone buildings. But the movement didn't last long. Some idiots built high-rise apartment buildings nearby, hoping to lure Manhattanites away from the city. But there's nothing desirable about that neighborhood except it's proximity to the City.
Did you hear the Mets fired Bobby Valentine? The way they underachieved this season, they had to do something.
How about getting rid of Mo Vaughn? Either that or have the guy lose 40 pounds and get into shape. I used to like that guy, too.
I heard rumors that Lou Pinella could be courted to manage there if they get permission from the Mariners to talk to him. He's in the last year of his contract in Seattle.
Too bad Gil Hodges can't be resurrected. He wouldn't put up with any gaffe from anyone.
Yeah, none of the old time managers would put up with the whiny players of today. Being only 31, I missed out on seeing some of the greatest players.
The main reason Durocher left the Astros after the 1973 season was because he felt he could no longer relate to the modern ballplayer. In his words, "Whatever happened to 'sit down, shut up and listen'?"
He had Cesar Cedeno at Houston, who in Leo's judgment had more natural talent than anybody else in the game at the time, and it killed him to see Cedeno not giving his all.
I'm almost tempted to use the same line Leo Durocher used when he took over the Giants:
Back up the truck.
Manhattan. Roughly speaking, I live above the 86th Street station on the 1/9.
Too bad Dave. We can't all live near the Sea Beach, now can we?
Stroudsburg PA and Midtown Manhattan around E 28 St.
I'm an ex-New Yorker (Manhattan) living for 30 years in Los Angeles.
Canberra, Australia, where the only rail service is the Countrylink service to Sydney, using ASEA DMUs. There is an indifferent internal bus service that no one uses, with Mack/Renault and Dennis Dart equipment.
I was born and grew up in Melbourne, where I used to catch the No 88 Preston - City tram (normally a W7 class) or the Victorian Railways "Red Rattler" swing door DMUs.
Is it true that Australian girls really dig American men? That's what everyone tells me. Not that this soon to be 62 year old man is interested because I have my girl for life, but I've always wantedto hear from an Aussie if that is true.
Fred
Can't say, because I'm not an Aussie girl. I could poll the girls in the office here, but they might take offence, one never knows!!
Fred
Can't say, because I'm not an Aussie girl. I could poll the girls in the office here, but they might take offence, one never knows!!
The Capital District[Albany,Ny],Home of the great,spankin'brand new Amtrak station!!![lol]and CDTA!
Oh dear ... that station's a prohibited thought y'all. :)
LOL!!!! Awhh .... come on 'kirk! It ain't that bad[ha]!!!!
It's VERY pretty ... though you've GOT to admit ... when it opened, one of the ticket agents had to go over to Wal*Mart and buy a FREAKING CLOCK to put up on the balcony because the $38 million train station didn't have a SINGLE CLOCK!
Now ya gotta admit, that's RICH ...
And he had to PAY for it out of his OWN POCKET! (and he was NOT reimbursed)
ain't that a kick in the pants? hey whay going on with the trip to braddford this month?
I still can't get over that. $38 million and some poor TICKET AGENT had to provide the official clock for the station out of his own pocket. Wonder if the politicos ripped it off yet? Heh.
Not this COMING weekend, but NEXT weekend is the transit bash up at Branford ... I'd LOVE to have you along - we'll be up that way already on Saturday since there's relatives of Nancy's up that way. But if you want to get ahold of the folks sponsiring the event (I'm just a pissant member of the museum, it's a GREAT place and QUITE worth joining yourself), click below for the details of how to get hooked up:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/events.cgi
Scroll on down to October 13th, 2002 and the contact info is there. You'll need to bring wallet, but PROMISE it'll be WELL worth it ... and we're hoping to see even more folks here. If you want the opportunity to harass Selkirk, here's your chance. :)
okay....I gotcha, Word. I'll give you a holla, so I can corral the troops,make plans,and so on... lookin forward...
Moo! Show ya how to run a railroad. :)
IT'S ALL GOOD!
Currently a resident of Israel (not far from Tel Aviv); originally from Brooklyn, where I took the Q each day to work. I can't ride a rail system now, since they're rebuilding the line from my town to Tel Aviv; once they finish, I'll have the honor of riding on the Israel Railway Authority's Jerulsalem/Tel Aviv line.
subfan
I've always lived in England though I am a frequent visitor to the USA.
Most of my life I've lived in places on the old Midland Railway main line out of London St Pancras station. Born in Radlett, lived 25 years in Beeston (near Nottingham), then in Loughborough, where I still work, and now in Bedford -- all four of which still have living stations, the Beeston one an original 1847 structure. But much of my childhood was spent in Brighton (the one in England not the one in Brooklyn), and I often used the Brighton-London main line in order to spend a day railfanning in LOndon.
My regular commute now is 60 miles northwards from Bedford to Loughborough on a Midland Mainline DMU, which does the trip in about an hour.
I represent the M-A-R-T-to-the-A in Atlanta and the São Paulo Metrô in SP. I'm both 100% ATLien and 100% Paulistano.
South Greenfield New York, near what used to be the Elm Avenue stop on the Brighton line.
There was a South Greenfield Station on the Manhattan Beach Line:
South Greenfield - Opened July, 1877 - between Chestnut Ave. and Ave. M. Closed 1879, reopened 1889. In 1909, a new station was built which shared the embankment with the Brighton line. Lasted until 1924.
Here's a site that has some pictues of the South Greenfield station, it shows the embankment being built in 1908:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/mbbr4.html
I was always fascinated by the "ruins" at Neck Road and E 16th St, and anways tried to imagine what it looked like when it was in use. Now I wonder no more ...
--Mark
Lower East Side
Formerly I used the IND Station at East Broadway on the D (later on the F) to get to Brooklyn Tech HS (via A and GG).
(A few places later)
Kings Highway, Brooklyn
Brighton Line
Elmhurst Queens
Fort Totten (US Army housing) Bayside Queens
Both Flushing Line
(A few places later)
Stafford Virginia
VanPool into Washington DC
But you didn't ride the Sea Beach either. Don't you realize what you missed?
At least I rode NX back in 1967-1968 as a "joy ride"
Now THAT was a Sea Beach Super Express!
Well that is better than nothing. Next time you get to the Big City, you have to ride Fred's train, if for no other reason than to pacify SBF.
Elmhurst, queens for the past 23 years...before that was Jackson Heights.
Arlington, VA, two blocks from the WMATA Orange Line, even though I rarely use it since where I work isn't too public transportation friendly. Grew up in Hyattsville, MD were the closest station before the Green Line opened up out there was Fort Totten on the Red Line. Takoma and Silver Spring were nearby, but the parking was easier at Fort Totten.
I currently live in a very small town called Lonaconing, Maryland. It lies in EXTREME western Maryland. Pittsburgh is about 90 mins to my NW, Morgantown, WV is about 60 miles west....Baltimore & DC are about 2 1/2 hours to my east. I grew up in a town called Columbia, Maryland which sits midway between Baltimore & DC. My first love is to the DC Metro. I've collected every newspaper clipping, map, etc that I could get my hands on. I've also collected the same for Baltimore, including a book that was issued by the state in the late 60's highlighting the subway that would never be for the city. To look at it now, you see shades of the light-rail, along with the Metro that currently operates.
I'd love to hear more about the ill-fated Baltimore subway plan. how many lines did it have? Where did they run, other than the corridors now served by Baltimore's current system?
Mark
There were originally supposed to be 3 FULL lines (six segments all radiating out from a central station.....Charles Center) If you look at the Charles Center station of today, the middle level where it gets real wide near its eastern end was where the Northern & Southern Lines would've entered. The lines would be as follows:
Northwest---Charles Center to Owings Mills (currently operating)
Northeast---Charles Ctr to Joppa/Belair (the segment to Hopkins was to be part of this line)
South---Charles Center to Glen Burnie w/ a branch to BWI----The light rail from Westport south follows pretty much the planned routing for the South Line.
North---Charles Center to Timonium (this line would NOT have followed the current light rail. It would've gone up St. Paul St & York Roads
Southeast--Charles Center to Marlyn Avenue & Sparrows Point (This line would've split east of Patterson Park w/ a branch serving Essex and a branch serving Dundalk and eventually Sparrows Point.
There were originally supposed to be 3 FULL lines (six segments all radiating out from a central station.....Charles Center) If you look at the Charles Center station of today, the middle level where it gets real wide near its eastern end was where the Northern & Southern Lines would've entered. The lines would be as follows:
Northwest---Charles Center to Owings Mills (currently operating)
Northeast---Charles Ctr to Joppa/Belair (the segment to Hopkins was to be part of this line)
South---Charles Center to Glen Burnie w/ a branch to BWI----The light rail from Westport south follows pretty much the planned routing for the South Line.
North---Charles Center to Timonium (this line would NOT have followed the current light rail. It would've gone up St. Paul St & York Roads
Southeast--Charles Center to Marlyn Avenue & Sparrows Point (This line would've split east of Patterson Park w/ a branch serving Essex and a branch serving Dundalk and eventually Sparrows Point.
Ooops, forgot one...
West---Charles Center to Chalfonte Dr. (this line would go out Edmondson Avenue to almost the Howard County Line
And it was the WMATA cost overruns that killed most of the lines. The South line was killed by Joe Alton, who was Anne Arundel County Executive in the 1970's. After the WMATA cost overruns, Congress, which had promsied to fully fund in 1974, put everybody else on line-by-line basis for Federal funding.
The Northwest line was the cheapest route, as half of Section A would be airial or elevated. That's why it was first.
I meant at-grade or elevated. That's what you get typing at 1:15 AM :)
Dan,
It's interesting you would bring that up...It was the path of least resistance....You see that on the Metro too (DC)---That's why that sections along present day rail lines were built early....Red Line from Grosvenor to Shady Grove (1984) (well, most of it) and from Union Station to Silver Spring (1978). Not to mention the Orange Line from Minnesota Ave to New Carrollton (also 1978).
Mark
1951-1972: Brooklyn; Culver Line
1972-1976: Boston; Red Line
1976-Present: Buffalo; NFT Metro
STG: The Culver Man. How the hell have you been and where have you been keeping yourself? You haven't posted much lately. Come on now, get with it.
Borned and Raised in Chinatown, Manhattan using MTA New York transit to work and visits. Currently attending school at Fairfield County Conn through MNR
Suffern, NY, though I grew up in the shadow of the Brighton Line in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn.
--Mark
Just what we needed on this board----another Brighton man. And here I thought you were a Sea Beach guy, especially since we shared the railfan window a few months back as my train tooled its way through Brooklyn. Well, at least #1 Brighton Express Bob is pleased with your revelation. Where is Suffern though? Is it upstate or on LI?
Suffern is just over the state line from Jersey. Rt. 17 goes through it and there is a Thruway exit. I-287 comes up from Jersey at that spot, too.
If you remember the old Ford plant in Mahwah, NJ (where Sharp has their HQ now), Suffern is 1/4 mile from there.
Heh, I'm an equal opportunity railfan. No bias here. For a while, I used to like the West End better than the Brighton. I should tell you that I got some great runbys on video this summer on the Sea Beach during a GO where all Coney Island-bound service ran express using the Sea Beach middle track.
--Mark
Wanna bet Fred's going to want a tape of that?:)
Let me know how and when to get that Sea Beach video. I'd love to have one.
#4 Sea Beach Fred: You do not get around. Suffern is on the western side of the Hudson just above the NJ state line. I think it is the first town in NY that you hit after leaving the Garden State.
Then unknown to me I did pass it when I took the Palisades in the summer of 1999 for my three day stay at Cooperstown. I just don't remember the name but since it is on the route I breezed through it. I have heard it is a nice community except for all the Yankee fans polluting the place.
I know a guy down here in DC that grew up in Suffern. Last name Udoff. His family is still up there. He's a huge Jets and Mets fan, used to drive me nuts with the J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS chant.
IC, quit complaining. You ought to hear me give my Mets chant. It would drive you out of your freaking mind. My wife runs out of the work when I start doing it, but I haven't done it too much lately for reasons you only have to pick up a paper to discern.
LOL, well, it can't be as bad as the fair weather Redskin fans that we have down here! One minute they're singing "Hail to the Redskins", the next minute after they lose, it looks like someone stole their favorite toy.
I never heard the end of Keyshawn when he was with the Jets, now everytime I mention his name, I get growled at. haha.
What is this Mets chant, anyway?
BTW, if you saw ESPN Classic's airing of Game 5 of the '69 World Series back in June, they included a clip of Gil Hodges being interviewed in the clubhouse by Lindsey Nelson after the game.
Sorry I missed it. I've always liked the Mets but I didn't start rooting for them until 1983 and they were very bad then. The next year Gooden was a rookie, Davy Johnson came on board, Hernandez settled in for his first full season, and Wally Backman gave them the second baseman and second hitter they needed and they took off.
What about George Foster, Home Run hitter from the Reds? That was the Mets first series acquisition when they decided that they wanted a pennant.
Anything is better than that f@+$#&^*! Atlanta Braves "tomahawk" chant.
Hello from across the river!
The name says it all......
I call Hastings-on-Hudson, New York my home.
#3 West End Jeff
Greenpoint, Brooklyn. With the G train in the neighborhood but have the option of the L train at Bedford Ave and the 7 train at Vernon-Jackson in LIC. Although, might soon be moving to Princeton, NJ. :-(
Paul
Paul: I remember areas of Greenpoint that were heavily Polish. Is that still the case? I knew a Vincent Pazerekus there, but he was either Greek or Lithuanian. There was also a small Italian section as well. Near Vernon-Jackson, the road once continued to lead to a small bridge that got you into Brooklyn. They closed that down and now Vernon Blvd deadends where the road used to go. Progress, I guess.
Pazerekus could be a Lithuanian name. Most of our surnames end in -as, -is, -ys, or -us. Never -ous as do some Greek surnames. You won't offend a Lithuanian by saying his surname sounds Greek. However, it is a brutal slap in the face to us and a stinging insult if someone equates our nationality to Polish or worse, Russian. We have two things in common with Poland: the Latin alphabet and the Catholic Church. The languages, however, are totally unrelated. We have nothing in common with Russia.
OK, I'm through. And now for something completely different. A man with a tape recorder up his brother's nose.
Aw GEEZ ... You're not going to put on a dress, do a whirly-gig Irish ripoff Eastern European "folk dance" thing with a red skirt and then "try to take over the world" stare, are ya? Heh. Could be worse, you could be Bulgarian. Now watch as the "why you DO these things?" starts rolling in. Tovarich. :)
No, but I could bring my accordion and serenade everyone with a folk dance or two.
Naaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.:)
Fred, Greenpoint has remained the same. In fact, it seems to be a bit more crowded these days.
Vernon- Jackson in LIC has changed somewhat with the development of two huge condos. There were build on the ROW during the era of railfloats. I believe Kevin Walsh has a few pictures on his website
(http://www.forgotten-ny.com ) about LIC. The road ends now at the LIRR LIC yard. But further up the block, there are a few trolley rails visible in front of the 7 train station. The track ends at a parking lot, which I think, was a barn for the trolleys.
As for the bridge, that’s before my time. But I have heard about it, which connected Greenpoint and LIC sometime ago.
Paul
Ever get an egg cream at Sweet Louie's on Manhattan Ave.?
Never heard of the place. I am landing in New York this Friday and if you can give me the address I will go there. As far as I know the only remaining candy store soda fountain left in New York City is Hinch's on Fifth Avenue in Brooklyn. Fishbowl and I went there in May and had one after a fun time in Coney Island. If there are other soda fountain candy stores left any one out there can give the location and I would be much obliged. I can remember when there seemed to be one every three or four blocks.
I currently reside in Old Bridge, New Jersey. However, up until 2 1/2 years ago, I lived in Brooklyn. For 40 years. And unlike guys like #4 Sea Beach Fred, I have no fondness for the place. I guess it's because I still go back there every couple of weeks to visit family. It was a good place to grow up, however, because it prepares you for just about anything in life. Now, it's time for me to relax and take only 10 minutes to travel 5 miles, as opposed to Brooklyn, where it takes about 45 minutes to travel the same distance.
And Fishbowl works for New Jersey Transit and if he doesn't consider himself lucky he's the biggest ingrate around. BTW, it is only because of the Sea Beach, Coney Island and the Cyclone that Brooklyn still holds its attraction for me. Like Queens, where I lived most of my time in New York, some of the changes I;ve seen have saddened me. However, I can say the New York I've seen the past couple of years far outpaces what I saw in 1974 and 1991. I really believe the city is coming back.
Fred, I do consider myself lucky. However, working for NJ Transit enables me to live and work in New Jersey. When I worked in Manhattan years ago, I was "content" to stay in Brooklyn, even though I didn't have to. It worked out perfectly where I started my second career and made a geographical move shortly thereafter.
South Amboy, NJ
4 blocks from station.
1 block from west pocket.
My name is Steven Green. I live in Austin, Texas and I sometimes take a Capital Metro bus. Mainly because they are still only 50 cents and the price has not changed since I moved here from Astoria in 1989. I usually drive on I-35.
I would never say that I am a "Texan". I am a native New Yorker from Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn and I grew up on the Brighton Line.
I lived in University City in Phila. for six years by the 34th st Market Street Line "Blue Line" station.
I lived in Back Bay section of Boston for a year near the Green Line and Red Line.
I also lived in Lindenwold, NJ by the PATCO line to Phila.
And finally a few years in Miami Beach before they had trains in Miami.
Have you checked out "Katz" over on the West End of town?
Yeh, they are OK. There is not a good pizza in this town.
BTW, Katz's has the hallway where you enter, set up to look like a pre-1970 subway car, with metal straps and other features, such as old IRT windows, polls and other features.
When I take friends around from out of town, I take them to the Green Mesquite (BBQ sandwiches) and to Lone Star (Round Rock Donuts) which are one of the ten best donuts in the USA.
we also have a few true Chinese restaurant in the style of San Francisco chinatown.
Cedarhurst, New York.
Third westbound stop on the Far Rockaway LIRR line.
Just watch the CNN News, Isidore's sister LILI is firing up within past 12 hours. According to the News Media and the National Hurricane Center @ www.nhc.noaa.gov" Hurricane LILI is upgraded to Category 4 Status with wind up to 135 Mph and expected to intensify further possible Category 5 Hurricane within next 12 -24 hours. This means that major damage will be done Southern Louisiana State or east Texas. I hope guys down there prepared for worst.
I have to wonder what'll happen after it makes landfall. Appalachia was hit with MAJOR flooding after Juan came ashore at the same location in 1985. I think all of us on the east coast should keep a sharp eye on this one.
Mark
According to the National Hurricane Center, this will be the another 2nd major hurricane making landfall in US since its weather
history record.
The first being Andrew? It too was a Category 4.
The last major Hurricane that hits the Gulf of Mexico Coast states was the Great Graveston Hurricane unnamed back in couple century.
So far Hurricane Mitch, Andrew, and Camille made it to the top ten deadliest, costliest, and expensive hurricane list
I guess Isidore could do the D herself and decided let her sister Lili continue where its lefted off. Keep in mind that Lili also has a younger brother sitting in the Atlantic few hundred of miles south of Bermuda struggling fighting for his life.
So, it gets very, very, very wet. It gets very windy as well.
Where or how are the Canal trolleys stored or protected from storm and water damage?
Avid
I think there was also Hurricane Audrey in 1957.
--Mark
I hail from Brooklyn, not to far from downtown. It's amazing that Downtown Brooklyn's skyline seems to be growing at the same rate as me. At the rate Forest City Ratner develops that area (and pushes for more development), downtown Brooklyn will become a financial district in it's own right.
answer ....where ever i can get a nice hotel / motel & there is a nice
rail transit system to go out & take photos of !
this will include a trip to san diego to really shoot the san diego
trolley "redbirds" in a day and night format
( not just day shots only )
Well I usually just lurk here, and occasionally post about maps and other geographic arcania. However, this roll call seems to have gotten just about everybody that I recognize to put their hand in the air. Therfore, I feel obligated to do so also.
I currently live in Brigton, MA during the weekdays, and in Washington Heights on the weekends. Why the long weekend commute? It has to do with working in high-technology -- New York just doesn't have a lot of jobs in electronics so I'm working elsewhere.
My home station is 190th St on the "A". That's right, just do what the Ellington song tells you to & you'll find my place!
I'm a lifelong Philadelphian and currently live in the hills of Roxborough in the northwest part of town. Unfortunately it's nowhere near anything that runs on rails (the closest rail line is the R6 about a mile down the hill, but not that easy for me to use and certainly not as convenient as the 27 bus which stops about a half block from me and takes me practically to my office door). I find excuses to ride the El and the subway-surface cars, as well as the R6, on occasion to go to and from after-work groups and activities.
I spent the first 25 years of my life in South Phila and was spoiled by two trackless lines (29 and 79, the only two still running) within a couple of blocks, as well as the 50 trolley not too far away (although the 5 bus was much closer, and therefore was the route of choice for north-south runs - 50 service was never very dependable at that time).
I rode the 29 to high school every day and grew to like the tracklesses. Going to college, I found reasons to ride the PCC's in the subway-surface tunnel. The Woodland Depot fire happened shortly after I started college, so the rides were adventures and you never knew what class of PCC was going to show up on any given run, with a wide variety of paint schemes (only the ex-Kansas City cars and the ex-TTC's, when they arrived, didn't run in the tunnel).
After a year of 'exile' in Eastwick, which put me on the 36 trolley every day, it was back to South Phila for 3 years. A search for a little more space sent us off to the hills, where I've been for the past 16 years. I weathered the 'stinky' Volvo articulated buses for their careers and now enjoy the more dependable (and more comfortable) Neoplan artics.
One of my favorite rides growing up was the Broad St subway, with the relics that served it during that period. I quickly took a liking to the 'South Broad' cars (the more 'modern' ones with the more comfortable seats (and more cross seats than the original Broad cars)). There was something about both classes of cars that made the ride something that I always looked forward to taking.
I grew up and lived in Astoria, Queens until 1976. Astoria Blvd. was my home station and my favorite line and train was the T (R32)until it was robbed by the IND in 1967. I never forgave the TA for putting the RR as the Astoria line with its decrepit R16s during my prime railfanning years.
Lived in Puerto Rico 1976-1981, no real mass transit except the bus system in the San Juan metro area.
Lived in the Baltimore-Washington area 1981-1989 and I mostly rode the WMATA Orange line from New Carrollton to get into Washington.
Currently living in the Dallas, TX area where DART has a very decent bus system and light rail system. The rail system has been expanding into the Dallas suburbs. My new "home" station will be Garland on the Blue line which will open Nov-Dec 2002.
Any subtalkers in my home area?
I'm not in your home area, but I've been on the DART light rail. It's awesome.
It snakes it's way through the streets of downtown Dallas, like trolleys once did in many US cities. Then DART transforms into a high speed commuter rail line in the suburbs. I was there two years ago, and saw construction being done on many of the new stations and track. I remember going all the way out to section of town near the Bronco Bowl arena. Naturally, I'm familiar with that venue. Lucha Libre AAA has been there many times. I'm a huge Lucha fan. Thus the name LuchAAA.
I rode DART in December of 2000. I liked the fast subway run after the "S" curve off local streets (Sorry, I don't know street names). There was one subway station that wasn't opened yet when I was there. (It opened last year, I think).
--Mark
That would be the City Place station between the Mockingbird Lane and Pearl Street Stations which opened last year. City Place is the only underground station in the entire DART Rail system and the run from Mockingbird to Pearl is very Subway-like. The S-curve you refer to is north of Pearl.
Another thing about DART is that in the suburbs the station separation is sufficient to have 60-70 mph runs. Train speed limits are posted along the tracks.
Do you consider Austin, your home area? I know Richard kaufman in Garland. He is from Orange, NJ.
Oh yeh, I moved to Austin, from Astoria in 1989, and I have fond memories of Astoria from the few years that I lived there by the Ditmars Blvd. station.
Well, home for me still feels like Boston, although I am currently living just south of San Francisco. Currently ride BART fairly regularly, and MUNI when I can....
Used to live in Boston, Atlanta, and NYC. So, have done all the Rapid Transit Lines in Boston....MARTA(when the subway first opened :) ), but my head and heart are always with the TA.
Iwas born in Uzbekistan, raised in Brooklyn, Ny where the Culver F train is my home line. Spent my childhood days documenting the homeless population/activity in the Amtrak riverside (FREEDOM) tunnel, marveling at trains
going through the tunnel, as well as being fascinated by CI Yard.
14th street off 8th ave( A,C,E & L) is home for me. Don't post here much but read often. Work near Chambers and use every train for deliveries throughout all Manhattan. I've been to every station between lower Manhattan and 125th st. numerous times in the past 8 years and occasionally, above 125th to Inwood.
I'm in Howard Beach, in the shadow of that horrible abominatoin called the AirTrain station.
Born and raised in the Lower East Side...currently residing on the western boundary known as the Bowery!
It looks like my first response did not make it to the net, so I will try again.
I live in Austin, Tx but I would never call myself a "Texan". I take Capital Metro busses once in a while because they are still only 50 cents. The price has remained the same since I moved here from Astoria in 1989. I usually drive on I-35.
I grew up in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn and always took the Brighton Line.
I lived in the University City, section of Philadelphia for six years and used the Market Street "Blue Line" at 34th street.
I lived in the Back Bay section of Boston and used the Green Line at Copley or Arlington but I also was near the Red Line at Charles Street.
I lived in Lindenwold, NJ near PATCO and used it every day to a
job in Collingswood and two other jobs in Phila.
I was in Miami Beach for a few years before they had Metrorail.
I also lived by Ave. P on the F and Ditmars Blvd. N (now W too) at two different places.
I will stay put in Austin because it is a good place to make money
but I love to visit NYC often and check out the subways, food, radio stations and my beloved NY Mets.
Yeadon, PA is where I'm from. Of course, that entails a lot of traveling by trolley or R3.
Come to think of it, I've lived close to one of the Subway-Surface lines three times in my life. Close to Regional Rail also.
I need some confirmation even though I checked the website. HBLR is extended to Hoboken, and new stations have opened on the Newark City Subway. Is this correct? I want to do some trolley railfanning Friday!
Yes, that's correct. The new stations on the City Subway have been open for a while though... I rode the line in late August and they were open then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cool. Thanks. I actually hope it rains. I love railfanning on rainy days. Yeah, kind of weird, but it's true. :)
Why Trolley's on Friday, why don't you join us on our trip to Long Beach??
See other posts about it, a few subtalkers are going.
That would be LRVs. Years ago everything got a new dress, i.e. "streamlined". Trolleys are now LRV or DMUs (elect or diesel version).
I have several items about expansion of transit in Atlanta. If all this stuff becomes a reality, the ATL should become quite the place to railfan.
To summarize, I drew this map:
First up, we have the green colored line, I'll call it the Perimeter Line. Here is an article about how three busieness districts are pooling their money together to get a study done to see what type of transit can be built there. So far, they came up with a 14 mile, 9 station route. They want to determine if they should use Light rail or BRT for the line. I'm pretty sure light rail will win.
Next, there is the Belt Line, in yellow. My school newspaper has an aeticle about this. What was originally a thesis project got the attention of the City Coucil President, and now she is pushing for it. See here thoughts here. Also, there is an excellent PDF presentation here (large, 35 pages). The presentation shows the route it will take, along with photos. Somewhere in the presentation they show where there are abandoned rail tunnels, I need to get out there check them out! The line proposed will be 22 miles long with 45 stations. The main force behind the project is opening up under-used land for development in established areas, which is a good thing. They estimate the areas close to the route can bring in 100,000 more people into the city to live. This is a great example of "build it and they will come." Having the already establish rail line will do woders for the ridership. I have already written Cathy Woodward my support, this project makes so much sense.
Lastly, the Red colored line, the Northwest Line, is briefly mentioned in two of the articles. This line is already in the works with funding, and we should see the opening by 2007 for the first segemnt from Arts Center to Cumberland.
I believe for the most part, that these lines will be built. There are many more YIMBYs than there are NIMBYs, and people are finally starting to get a clue that roads just don't work.
Personally, I liked the Dayton Area Rapid Transit concepts. CI Peter
Please explain, I'm not familiar with them.
I think the proposals we have right now are perfect because they cover nearly every major areas of business and residence in the city, so it will relieve traffic, plus it'll open up new areas for people and businesses without the usual sprawl we are accustomed to.
He was talking about the wonderful Miami Valley Rail Authority.
Mark
Oh yeah, I saw the intials formed (DART), and I was thinking of Dallas for some reason. But I don't think this is fantasy. THe Northwest Line will be built as it already has funding, and the Perimeter line is being pushed by business leaders in the area who are paying for the study themselves. The Belt line is still just a concept, but I'm sure once more people hear about it, it will get the support it needs.
Can Atlanta spare a few transit-minded citizens, business people, and politicians and send them to Philadelpia? We could use a few to help us get the rail lines we need!
:)
Mark
Maybe after we catch up to Philly in terms of route mileage, I'll think about sending my boys up there :-)
Damn, what an operations nightmare. I'd love to find out how they plan to route these vehicles. One ring is bad enough, on that diagram there are one ring and three branches and part of the ring is the branch!
Yeah, really. I'm wondering that myself. Perhaps when real engineering work is done, they'll need to buy new ROW and get rid of those weird branches. Only at Lindbergh can I understand if they leave it, it might be the start and end points for the trains, since I'm sure that most people will transfer there.
I believe for the most part, that these lines will be built. There are many more YIMBYs than there are NIMBYs, and people are finally starting to get a clue that roads just don't work.
Not to mention the fact that Atlanta's the sort of place where there's a can-do spirit and things get done. Unlike you-know-where.
And now since Bill Campbell and his cronies are out of office, the city gov't will actually perform functions. The current mayor and president are actually working together to do stuff. I'm sure the Belt Line will get the most support from Atlantans since it's one of the few projects that doesn't focus on the suburbs and is strictly for Atlanta's benefit.
I have a question, on the Cumberland to Dunwoody segment, will the proposed trackage go through Eastern Cobb County or not?
Probably by not much. I believe it will roughly follow I-285 from Cumberland to Dunwoody, so there will only be a couple of miles within Cobb. Aren't you in Marietta? The Northwest Line will go all the way to Town Center eventually, so you should be close to that line when built.
Too bad the meeting I'm going to in Atlanta is in 2005, not later! These look like ambitious plans. I hope they get built and provide a model for other cities. By the way, is the red line light rail or heavy metro?
Mark
It'll be light rail. I don't think we'll see any new heavy rail trunk routes built anymore :-( It costs too much, and I think they want to cover as much area as possible with transit, so light rail is the most practical. But we'll definitely see extensions/branches of the current heavy lines at some point.
Will the Northwest Line be a distinct operation (meaning will you have to transfer from the North-South route to use it)? Or will it be a branch operation of the North-South line?
It'll be distinct, the line will be light rail. I was exploring the area around where the NW line will cross the interstate over to Arts Center, and it looks like there could be a direct path from the bridge to where the line can terminate above and parallel to the N/S line where the current mezzanine is, like how it's setup on Market St in San Fran with MUNI and BART. It would be a conveinent transfer if it was set up like that.
What's with the rash of dead LCD side signs on many R142A's running on the 6? By dead I mean not visible, dim, nonfunctioning. Do the R142's have this lil dilemma?
Yes. LCD displays have power supply problems and CPU failures. Also, certain 37.5 VDC illumination circuit failures turn off the flourescent backlighting. Wanna buy a cheap pinball machine?
CI Peter
Today I finally got a good look at those giant black boxes on the 6's El, and I think that they are lockers of some sort. I think that I spotted a big combo lock on one of the lockers.
Just so ya know...
They are part of the modern signaling system the MTA is installing all around.
For proof, take a ride on the 7 and peek out the windows near the 111th, Willets Point stops and you can see these 'lockers' all around. I've managed to spot them open and they appear to reveal plenty of various switches and wires.
CBTC signals?
Most possibly. A lot of rumor and hearsay about the L and 7 being tests for the technology, as the 'L' part of it is pretty much true.
It's not hard to say since there is a poster advertising a 'Moderization Signal Project' at Main Street Terminal. The sign is at the regular mezzanine right above the intersection of Main and Roosevelt.
One of the reasons I don't post as much as I used to is the crazy and inflamatory topics that get started because someone deliberately inserts an inflamatory post and someone else feels that they must respond to it. Don't you realize when you are being baited?
THIS BOARD IS FOR DISCUSSION OF RAIL AND RELATED TRANSPORTATION TOPICS ONLY. (The caps are mine on purpose and if you don't like it you can shove up your BU.)
The latest inflamatory topic is the New Jersey Senate Race. We have bats and bricks being hurled back and forth and people being insulted for there beliefs. This discussion belongs somewhere else but not here.Take the fight outside the bar. I also have some very strong opinions on the politcal situation but I put my money where my mouth is. I am a member of and a contributor to a major political party and you all have my e-mail address if you want to hear them.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Oh, so that's how you become popular on subtalk? By knocking the political discussion?
This isn't the place for political discussion, except for discussions which are transportation based. If anyone wants to fight about who's a better Senator, then go to PoliticalTalk or somewhere else.
Mr.Pirmann places the disclaimer on the top of the board for a reason.
But it is not YOUR role to enforce it.
I started the Senate race thread because it has a lot to do with what could happen to Amtrak and major project funding (like NJT's proposed new tubes into Penn). Also, regardless of who wins the race (after tonight's announcement), NJ's senator will be a freshman, with no seniority to help get choice committee assignments controlling $$$. I didn't post this last paragraph the first time. Perhaps I should have (but at least one other poster understood it without my having to spell it out. Did you?).
QWhy do we need new tubves into penn. the old tubes work fine. before you know it there will be a transistor into penn. maybe penn will even make it onto an IC.
Because tubes are elegant and pretty and resistant to EM pulse and when the black helicopters from the New World Order land at Penn the tubes will resist them, unlike the IC's.
:0)
Are you out of M's doghouse yet?
Are you out of M's doghouse yet?
Yes, I think. Today, I've been acting up because I'm pisqed orff with my research work and I've nearly fired my research advisor...
AEM7
Just as long as you don't piss off the committee which decide later whether or not you graduate...
Just as long as you don't piss off the committee which decide later whether or not you graduate...
Amen to that. Learned that one the hard way :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, I've seen the light. We should NEVER complain about politics or try to illustrate the point. When trains stop running, then we can tell jokes about it and call them bedwetters and crybabies when they have to take a bus. Hallelujah, I've seen the light.
Me too, the fare box covers 100% of operating expense and capital funding. I was under the mistaken idea that the government funding covered most of these costs and who was in the governemnt (elected representatives) had a major role in how (and even if) transit operated.
But I guess it is better to design and post about "My Plan for the 5th, 9th and 11th Avenue Subways for the year 2300". They may just appear by osmosis!
Not if Frank Lautenberg, the former NJ Senator who will run in place of Toricelli, wins. Ironically, he feuded with Toricelli on many occasions. He was pro-Amtrak while in the Senate, very much so. But at the same time, since he's been out of the Senate for two years, I guess technically that makes him a freshman Senator - at 78 years old. I'm sure he would still command a lot of respect, though.
Apparently, Lautenberg has already talked to Senate Democrats about regaining his seniority if he is returned to the Senate, though I'm not sure what his committee assignments were or who might have to step aside in order to fulfill that promise (and the Senate has other egos just as big as the Torch's who might not want to give up their seniority to satisfy Lautenberg).
Anyway, I'm betting that he'll be appointed to the Senate by next week, after the Democrats' appeal of the 51-day ballot rule is rejected, Torricelli resigns and McGreevy then appoints Lautenberg as his replacement (of course there's that other little question of whenther or not that move would allow McGreevy to cancel the Senate election for a year. Since the first of the absentee ballots already are starting to be mailed back and the military ballots already have been mailed out -- both with Torricelli's name on them -- that could create a doozey of a court fight in Trenton and probably Washington).
You make a good point about the egos who may not want to step aside for Lautenberg or Bradley. But keep in mind that with a 1 seat majority, they may have to give him what he wants. It is better to be chariman of less prestigous committee than "ranking minority member" of a more prestigous one.
The Senate race is way up in the air and control of it and the House will be decided on election day. You hear the pundits blab about this and that but as usual when the voting is over it is really amazing just how screwed up their predictions are. Just for the record, in 1996 I made a prediction and scored a perfecto. I predicted the Dems would pick up nine House seats and the GOP two Senate seats. I decided to quit predicting while I was luckily ahead.
He would command respect; that wouldn't give him a committee chairmanship, though.
My lord. Where is Pirmann when you need him. Does this board support moderators because I can see them very useful around here in the coming months.
I was going to stay quiet. Really I was. But for the occasional sidetrip here, most of the posters DO stick to rapid transit and have a low percentage of "off topic" ... we also have people posting about CATS and SPORTS too ... and that's even FURTHER off topic.
But it's not MY job or YOUR job to be the controller of thought here, that's up to Mr Pirrman to whom we should ALL be grateful for keeping such a widely variant number of people from trying to kill one another.
I ignore 20 threads here ENTIRELY for every one I actually read. It's really not hard to do. If you're not into a topic, PASS it - it makes the trip through here a LOT faster. If you think a topic's spinning out of control, don't POST to it. Threads come and go here daily and those that aren't fed, die. Pretty simple, actually. And painless.
I'm aware of it, son't worry about it. I just wish Pirmann would show up. Where is he nowadays?
Up to his eyeballs with stuff. If he sees the need to do something he will... if he doesn't, he won't. It's his sandbox.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Larry, you are a good voice of reason at SubTalk, where -- all too often -- threads of non-rapid transit related topics tend to last waaaaaaay beyond any reasonable timeframe...
It's thread drift. Happens everywhere. No BBS sofware ever written can prevent it. It's human nature. Look how group converstions go from toic to topic.
I made a funny comment earlier about there no being any Vulcans among the Subtalk community. A Vulcan viewing this (or any other BBS) would note it most illogical.
It's thread drift. Happens everywhere. No BBS sofware ever written can prevent it. It's human nature. Look how group converstions go from toic to topic.
Like the way almost any Subtalk thread, after it hits 25 or so messages, is almost bound to lead to a discussion of food!
Like the way almost any Subtalk thread, after it hits 25 or so messages, is almost bound to lead to a discussion of food!
This really eats shite!!! An off-topic thread about off-topic threads, and we morons don't stop!
Is shite tasty?
It's all Selkirk's fault. A little bird told me.
Yep, I did it all. It was just a little dog. And we're going to keep it. You won't have Selkirk to kick around anymore. :)
STOP SCREWIN AROUND IN SHOP CLASS.
I'd rather screw around in a railcar, but apparently they don't allow THAT here either. So I'll go sit in the corner, mope and fidget. :)
Do that an we'll put you on Ritilin!
Puppy uppers and doggie downers. Woohoo! :)
It's all Selkirk's fault. A little bird told me.
Are birds allowed in transit systems if they were kept in a cage? What about bald eagles? Are those allowed in transit systems? I was at MBTA's Porter Sq station the other day -- this is the deepest station on the system, which is at least 7 stops away from an above-ground station. There was a resident pigeon sitting there. It must be French. Maybe it's a Bombardier/Alstom product.
AEM7
What you found was a specially trained train pigeon. These birds were trained by Bombardier to make their products a home. I love to close the doors upon them....they swoop into the R142 like a F111 landing upon the deck of a carrier. Clap your hands and slam yourself into a wall...they erratically fly in the middle of the car pointing their beak like a sharp weapon. There had been rumors that a CI trained them for his family restaraunt...'Chinese Chicken'...but two generations of pigeons have existed since his pick out. One bird followed the stairs to the lunchroom and encountered a CTA three times...ILSHTIFOMC upon first contact. CI Peter
LMAO Selkirk. You are priceless and a good sport. I knew my short kiddingly sacrastic retort would inspire you to come out with a gem. Once again, nice going.
You're welcome. And REMEMBER, I am *not* a cook. :)
No you're not. You sir are a unique original. Keep up the good work.
It's amazing how this thread gone off the deep end. I think to prevent this, moderation is in order. Or you can just let this run wild.
>>> I think to prevent this, moderation is in order <<<
If you want moderated board, you are free to set one up. Otherwise, just ignore the threads you do not like on this one.
Tom
Vulcans? Ferengi welcome the aquisition. CI peter
Off-topic threads go on as long as they are not removed and as long as people respond to them. They really are't that common.
It is not BMTMan's or ChuChubob's, or anybody else's place to decide whether the thread belongs or not.
If you don't want to participate in a thread, don't post to it...
You seem to have missed the point of my post.
Not trying to DECIDE for anyone, merely stating a FACT, thank you very much...
Not trying to DECIDE for anyone, merely stating a FACT, thank you very much...
How did you get ChuchuBob into this message????
I heard you the first time. We could always go back to talking about Salaam's experience but that would get Train Dude and SUBWAY SURF mad, or we can stay on this and get Larry R Redbird 33 mad. It is human nature to respond when someone comes out with some outrageous political post. Anyway, it will all be settled with a week.
Gee Ron, that's like telling someone that if they don't like the content of a TV show to change the channel or turn the set off. It is much better to have the FCC ban the program. And the funny thing is that more often than not, it is the conservatives who want the show banned rather than let the free market determine if it is viable or not! Can we say hypocrite?
Gee Ron, that's like telling someone that if they don't like the content of a TV show to change the channel or turn the set off. It is much better to have the FCC ban the program. And the funny thing is that more often than not, it is the conservatives who want the show banned rather than let the free market determine if it is viable or not! Can we say hypocrite?
Well, as long as we're off-topic already...
I've always wondered why those supposed free market conservatives always like to complain about the so-called 'liberal media' bias. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head making them buy the NY Times, Newsweek, or The Washington Post or watch CBS News with Dan Rather. If there were such a clamor for a conservative viewpoint, The National Review would be putting Time out-of-business. Trouble is, most people don't like to be told how to think. Besides, the right-wing niche is being served by Fox News Channel, which is beating CNN, and we do have a Republican controlled House and conservative puppeteers running the White House, so I guess the Liberal Media isn't as strong as they whine about. But these people are masters of misdirection. As soon as we get close to pointing out their hypocrisy, they change the subject..."Corporate crooks? Well, what about the ultimate crook, Saddam Hussein! Let's go get him! But, what about Ken Lay? Who cares? Get the bad man in the Middle East!..."
Along those same lines, if the thread-drifters didn't want to discuss politics, but only transit, we wouldn't have the thought-police attempting to censor this board! :O)
I think politics-as-it-relates-to-rail is a valid topic for this board, even though I'm pretty sure Mr. Pirmann wants this place to be a more nuts-and-bolts discussion. But really, the history of the subway is enmeshed in politics, so how can you get away from it here? This site is partly about the history of the subway, after all.
Pete,
You said it all!
The misdirection thing has been raised to an art form. By the way, I haven't heard much about privatizing Social Security laterly, I wonder why? I was going to invest my retirement money in Enron, Global Crossing and Martha Steward Omnimedia; how much would I have made if GW had "unleashed" the power of the free market on me as opposed to waisting my money in a boring (and safe) place like the Social Security fund? I'm 43 now, when could I retire with the riches those investments would have made me?
And politics is about its FUTURE as well. SAS, anyone? However, discussing politics and how it affects mass transit is a prohibited thought, I'm calling my precinct captain and dropping dime on ya. :)
I'm still wondering what happened to that budget surplus we had a few years back, anyone remember it? it was billions and billions of dollars, as I recall, one candidate wanted to invest it back into the country, do things like pay off debt, and other necessary yet non glamourous things. But other candidate, after a few brewskys and joints with the old college buddies (read daughters), decided that it would be more fun to give it to the taxpayers, but not the middleclass, but rather to the upperclass, the very same people now screwwing our economy in possibly the world greatest Gang Bang. Of course the other candidate was chosen for us, and here we sit, mired in economic ruin, war looming, not even valiant, WWII-type war, but gristle-filled, dirty, ungodly political war, war simply for the sake of war, a war of misdirection, as keystone Pete already said, quite well. Scrub made just one mistake, the same one that his father made, today, with smart weapons, and the ability to reduce a country, like Afganistan to dust in 2 days, with merely our conventional weapons, a war with Iraq cannot possibly last long enough to give him the boost that he will really need in the polls during the coming election. The war will end, saddam will either be captured or killed by some penetration bomb, and suddenly all eyes will return to the homeland. They could try Osama, assuming we don't know where he is at this point, but how long can america look for a man who isn't there? Heck, this is probably where the whole Saddam thing came from; can't have em concentrate on Kenneth Lay, He's friends with BUSH II, and Osama is a dead horse, can't beat him any more without making our own intelligence arms look bad. So heck, why not stay in the neighborhood, "who we got there? Iran? Yemen? ahhhh Iraq"
Anybody want to place a wager on the person whom they will pick then, should the current regime still be in power?
I'm going with Dick Cheney, by then we'll all know about his wierd fetishes and stuff, and his coup'de ta will have failed, and we'll all have wised up to his, "Belive me, I am the government routine"
But that's just my plastic penny
Heh, you're like another poster I recognize at Rider Diaries. Always the vigilante...We're really developing into Rider Diaries now. I will watch and tell if it becomes as I predict. Don't bother replying to my post. No insults intended for anybody.
What French? There isn't a French word in your whole post.
Jeff: Isn't BU French for something?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Constantly blaming one party or the other for whatever _____ (Insert rail/transit system here)'s woes are is what starts it 1/2 the time....
It seems hopeless. Lots of the responses chalk it up to thread drift, but this thread never involved transit, not even in the first post. Notice though that it's a small number of people posting again and again on the political threads. Most people stay away.
Then it's up to us to get rid of 'em!. ;-)
This Board has been a political discussion board at least since I first arrived here 3 years ago.
"Hell" is not French, it's Middle English, but I'll pardon you anyway.
Hell" is not French, it's Middle English, but I'll pardon you anyway.
"We'll I'll be damned"
Larry,RedbirdR33
"Off Topic" can be hard to define. Transit and transit systems are virtually all subsidized by various governemnt agencies. Government agencies are run (or at least overseen and funded) by politicians. What politians are in office, are running for (or from) office is relevent to transit discussions. Some polictos from the deep south see transit funding as money thrown in the garbage and would like nothing better than to cut off all subsidies for the NY (and other major city) transit system. Yet for some reason they don't see multi billion dollar highway projects as being the same exact thing A GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY!
So, to the extent that some politians are transit friendly and others are the opposite; that is a legitimate topic for discussion. It just so happens that Torricelli was pro transit, on that issue alone, transit systems will be losing a supporter in the US Senate.
Viva la France!
--Mark
By studying the pattern, we're becoming like Rider Diaries. It got so hectic that people went haywire!!!
Why don't we just change our forum name to 'Rider Diaries'?
To add some more, if you try to post something over at the Diaries, most of the time, you get useless OT posts that go no where and often lead to
A)more pointless posts
B)a possible debate
and the result, it post pumps users' posts and i think it can slow down the database, unless I'm wrong, which I think I am.
I only visited that website twice, and got a pounding headache each time....never been back.
I know, the used to be more transit-oriented, but now you have like these pointless little debates and rants like Gun Ownership, Iraq and other political banter that really didn't belong there before.
I hope it doesn't happen here. Mr. Pirmann is busting himself for this website.
The latest delivery of R-142s is currently being put in the barn at East 180th St with the usual enterage of yellow diesels to do the chores....
-Stef
Stinking garbage trainsets not properly inspected by East 180th put int RTO with a myriad of defects they want vendors to fix. My partner and I inspected ten cars, fourty shoe beams and had to adjust thirty on trainsets that received limited service. Bombardier is a manufacturer of junk/killer trainsets.
Okay, Slate is one of the better 'zines, but they really had a blooper in today's edition. An "Explainer" article discussing why dying people often see a bright light began:
Train operator Kelvin DeBourgh Jr. was killed last week when the new AirTrain, which connects Manhattan to Kennedy International Airport, crashed. Before succumbing to his injuries, he told rescue workers: "I can't see you anymore—all I see is a bright light."
Oops!
I'm not sure what article you are referring to.
If I were to speculate a little, I would guess that the victim is describing the effect of high-stress-related nervous impulses intefering with normal transmission through the optic nerve; or loss of interpretation of vision due to loss of blood supply from the occipital lobe of the brain (which interprets vision), or a combination of both. Additionally, pre-existing conditions (such as migraine) might contribute.
The tourniquet effect of the blocks probably kept him conscious for a while by preserving blood supply to the head. This is not the first time such an event has been recorded.
I don't think he's complaining about the bright light, but rather about the "AirTrain, which connects Manhattan to Kennedy International Airport" part.
In Trains magazine, they did a shot on 7/5/02 of the R143's stopping at Livonia Ave. station where a set of Redbirds (R29's) with 239th St. stickers underneath the numbers went overhead, but I could not tell what the assignment for that set was. Can anyone clarify that?
I assume that was just a 5 train going in service from New Lots Yard to 238/White Plains Road. It was not a 1 or 3 train.
A few 5 trains run to New Lots. You probably saw one of them. So do a few 2 trains, but the 2 had very few Redbirds assigned on 7/5. And the 4 also runs to New Lots at nights and during some GO's, but the 4's Redbirds are all R-33's and they all have orange Mosholu stickers.
(BTW, there is no IRT station called Livonia Avenue. I assume you mean one of the stations along the line to New Lots.)
You know, you got me all excited for nothing.
no,he means the Livonia Ave. station on the L which is beneath the Livonia Ave. line with Junius St within a short distance away.
It could have been a No.2 or 5 Trains the No.1 train were not the only trains running to New Lots.
Maybe that 5 "Layup in New Lots" consist...
Which transit systems are not yet AWFLA compliant? The recently passed American With Four Legs Act requires transit systems to provide lampposts and "doggie shitters" in addition to other provisions such as water pail at every station for guide horses for the blind. Four Legged Creatures are Americans too and Transit Systems must treat them with respect. Which system does not yet have capital funding to implement AWFLA related equipments?
An interesting question. Guide Dogs, Signal Dogs, and Service Dogs (and police dogs) are allowed on trains. Should they wear a diaper?
Signal dogs? Don't tell me Bomba's gotten the contract on homeballs. :)
Please -- no references to E_Dog...let's not even go there ;)
I wasn't referring to E_Dog...
Speaking of animals, what is MTA NYCT's and other transit systems policy on cats (in a carrier) on the buses and subways?
OC Transpo here in Ottawa doesn't allow them at all, which I find very frustrating. My vet is a little ways down the street from me, but just out of walking distance (especially with a large cat carrier). It would be a short and easy bus ride to take my cat there but they won't allow him on board!!
It would be a short and easy bus ride to take my cat there but they won't allow him on board!!
That's precisely the reason why I believe there is a need for the Americans With Four Legs Act. Animals deserve more respect than this. It's like saying that colored people should use a different urinal than whites. What's the difference between a cat and a person? As long as the cat doesn't make a nusiance of himself/herself, there are no valid reasons to bar them from transit.
Health professionals might argue that cats carry disease. So why isn't there explicit ban of people with TB or other airbourne-transmitted disease on transit systems?
Clear double standards here.
But in any case, AWFLA will not help your case with OCTranspo, cuz you are not an American. So Rights and Responsibilities of Americans do not apply to you.
AEM7
Here I've gotta side with you. Clearly the RATS have an advantage and are the majority. I'll bet the wee four-legged individuals don't even get challenged when they enter a CAB ... :)
Yeah but our rights and responsibilities are very similar, so there's no reason why a simlar act shouldn't be passed in Canada. Many transit systems across Canada actually do allow cats on board. I'm going to write to my city councillor, maybe the rule can be repealed before my cat's next vet visit in the spring!! (Wishful thinking, but you never know!!)
Calgary Transit really loves animals... they actually include dogs in their fare structure!! $1.50 gets your dog aboard a bus or the C-train according to their map.
I've got a lot of pals in Calgary. I can see why they let the dogs on the system and for cheap. They cause less trouble. Heh.
>>> I've got a lot of pals in Calgary. I can see why they let the dogs on the system and for cheap <<<
Do they have sled racks instead of bicycle racks for those traveling with dogs? :-)
Tom
Oh ... they gonna GET you for that. Ever hear of an "Alberta clipper?" (weather phenom) ... they come from there. Actually it's warmer up there most of the year than it is here in upstate Noo Yawk. However, there's thousands of starving eskimos shivering in their igloos in Toronto. :)
Calgary's a pretty nice place actually ...
All kidding aside, I can understand why a cat in a carrier would not be allowed on the bus, maybe during rush hour if the bus get crowded. But a cat carrier is no worse than someone with a large shopping bag.
Sorry, I ment to say CAN'T understand. I think cats in carriers should be allowed.
There are all these thoughts going through my dirty mind concerning a common euphamism for a cat, and what that threesome did on the Long Island Railroad recently...
generally when humans shit all over the floor, they're asked to leave (often with handcuffs). YOU try asking a pet owner to remove his pet because it did that.
I agree with you.
There is one thing I think you should be required to do: Teach your cat to jump onto the turnstile and place a token in the slot.
Any cat who can do that deserves to ride on the subway.
BTW, did you see the newspaper story and photo about the cat who lives in the subway?
My cats name is Subway, born in the Westchester Yard.
Peace,
ANDEE
There is one thing I think you should be required to do: Teach your cat to jump onto the turnstile and place a token in the slot.
Part of AWFLA requirements would be for new fare collection devices. Since a turnstile would not stop a cat from entering the system, cat flaps would be installed that would open upon placement of a token. The other turnstiles intended for people would be converted to run full-length in order to exclude cats. There were doubts as to whether they would successfully exclude RATS. (ask Selkirk). It's a good job that dinasour no longer exists, or transit vehicles would need to be substantially larger. AWFLA requirements specifically excludes elephantines and girrafes and "any other four legged creatures that will not fit in existing subway tunnels". These Americans are required to travel by RBBX trains "for practical reasons".
AEM7
"It's a good job that dinasour no longer exists, or transit vehicles would need to be substantially larger. AWFLA requirements specifically excludes elephantines and girrafes and "any other four legged creatures that will not fit in existing subway tunnels". "
There is no reason to exclude giraffes from elevated lines or from AirTrain. Simply install skylights on the subway car roofs, and politely inform the giraffe that he must transfer to a shuttlebus prior to the underground portion of the line, for example at 121 St on the J.
These Americans are required to travel by RBBX trains "for practical reasons".
LOL! I get that. Does anybody else?
Keeps them cool. :)
you guys....had me goin'there for a sec...LOL
Nope. What's an RBBX train?
RBBX is the FRA reporting mark for Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey.
AEM7
OK, now I get it.
OH CHIT! I *didn't* GET it ... I thought RBBX meant "refrigerated freight. OH, PeTA's gonna be mighty grumpy now! :)
Seriously, any "People eATING Tasty Animals" on subtalk, TRUCE!!! YOU back the truck up on our property up here, and we'll be HAPPY to load it with all sorts of pests (umm, sweet cuddly buttercups of love) and YOU take them home and pet them. Only a few days in the hospital will get you past all those scratches and deer-kicks to the face ... really. Hug them, french kiss them, love them in your own "idiom," WE won't tell, as long as you TAKE THEM AWAY ... moo. :)
Here's a foto.
And that's the new "Richard Simmons Dormitory" at MIT behind the train (no relation to that Richard Simmons!). The dorm is now open, and is being dedicated tomorrow. Maybe we'll be blessed with a freight run-by during the ceremony :-)
You're outta luck, I'm sorry to say, Todd. The only freight that traverse that route on a regular basis is the late-afternoon UPFE which runs by at around 4-6pm, and the return empty at around 10pm-midnight. Of course, there are adhoc moves, but who in the right frame of mind would ship CSX if they're trying to get to a destination in either Northern MA, NH or ME? UPFE = Union Pacific Fruit Express, just so that no one else makes the same mistake...
You might get a commuter-rail/Amtrak empty stock move though.
AEM7
Nice photo. Why aren't you on AIM more?
Nice photo. Why aren't you on AIM more?
heh. Cuz I blocked you, to see how long it would take for you to notice, since you never talk to me on AIM anyways, and you tend to ignore me when I IM you. It took you about a month to notice. I gather you have been too busy keeping Tiffue busy, or perhaps Tiffue has taken a different direction and are beginning to keep you busy. Every time I go on Amtrak, I take a bunch of photos for you, and I get duplicates so that you can have them, and then I send them to you, and you don't even talk to me when I'm online. I suppose you could be busy with school, but then, I am busy too, and I'm a grad student at that rate. Anyway, I shall unblock you, effective now, and I have a bunch of photos for you from when I was at the head end and more random stuff from CSX. Someday I might get them to you, if you're nice. Of course, you might not care, in which case I don't suppose it matters. I'll keep the pics for my album.
AEM7
Yeah, I read that. I think Kennedy is running out of stuff to talk about. A cat of all things. Next thing, he'll be tracking rats to see their daily routine of dining on rotten cheese.
Next thing, he'll be tracking rats to see their daily routine of dining on rotten cheese.
That sounds like the subject of a government study....
"Speaking of animals, what is MTA NYCT's and other transit systems policy on cats (in a carrier) on the buses and subways?"
Never heard of any problem carrying a cat in a carrier on NYCT. Just another form of luggage, I would assume.
FYI Seashore Trolley Museum had a cat until she passed away a month ago. Boatyard came to us from our neighbors who owned the boat yard next to us. She liked the museum soo much she lived there for 18 years. She will be missed and no plans to replace her. Stevie;(
AEM7 Spews more trash on Subtalk and snookers 14 people. I checked it out. There is no American With Four Legs Act. Congress may be generally stupid, but not that stupid.
AEM7 got a prime place in my Killfile. Most of his posts are drivel. Sometimes there's good stuff, but it's not worth sifting through the trash.
"AEM7 Spews more trash on Subtalk and snookers 14 people. I checked it out. There is no American With Four Legs Act. Congress may be generally stupid, but not that stupid."
If you fell for his joke, it's not his fault.
"There is no American With Four Legs Act. Congress may be generally stupid, but not that stupid."
AEM7 is trying to be clever by making what he thinks is an analogy to the Americans With Disabilities Act, because he has made it clear in past posting that he thinks any modifications to bus and rail service to accomodate disabled people is a waste of money.
The problem with his analogy -- and generally with his crusade against the ADA vis a vis transit -- is that disabled people, unlike four-legged creatures, are:
1) taxpayers, with the right to use the public transit which they help finance.
2) citizens, in whose name the transit system is owned and operated.
3) workers, and need to get to work like any other worker.
4) consumers, and the economy benefits when they can get to the department store, the theater, the basketball game, the concert, etcetera.
You have to understand, though, that "AEM-7" comes from a culture where the broad interests of the masses (the community) is far more important than those of individuals, and where there is little protection for individuals. If 900 people are served adequately by a public service (whether transit or anything else), and 100 people cannot gain access to it, those 100 people are out of luck.
"AEM-7" hasn't quite adjusted to US democracy yet.
...a culture where the broad interests of the masses (the community) is far more important than those of individuals...
Oh, oops. Maybe I do believe in socialism after all. Damn. Hmmm. I'm going to have to think about this one really, really hard. Thanks for pointing it out, RonInBayside. Very good point.
This is a trade off between Socialism on the individual level (let's as a society make sure everyone is looked after), and Socialism on the society level (let's make sure the whole society is looked after).
AEM7
And then there's "I, me, mine, I've got mine, screw everybody else."
and the horse they rode in on.
Nah, they got the horse too. :)
Yes, that is very true.
This is a very powerful concept. A million North Vietnamese could die during their long war with Western powers, but in support of their nation, because the death of each is unimportant compared to the survival of the whole.
Are you serious? You couldn't tell he was making a saterial commentary about the ADA? The problem is not w/ AEM7, its your your own lack of any sort of homour sense. I'd bet if you tried laughing it'd break your face.
Don't worry about him reading your insult, I'm sure he has you and 2,147,483,646 other people in his killfile.
Nope. Mike's not there, neither is Train Dude or even our West Coast whipping boy.Or even you, in your many incarnations. I'm very selective, and to get on my list is either somebody who only posts to be seen (no content at all, just trash) or those who have personally insulted me here.
Ah, so I now have a perfect opportunity to insult Dan Lawrence. I've just established that he won't read this, everyone else will read this and laugh, and there will be no repecussion since I'm already in his killfile.
Do I take this tempting opportunity? :)
heh
Dan, I have one sentence to say to you. Killfiles are for wimps!
AEM7
And God has spooken to the hapless minions........sheesh.
That's strange, you've said that Mike is on your killfile and you often publicize who is on your killfile, hence the illusion of you having a big killfile.
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding but I didn't really mean to insult you personally.
I have only one person on my killfile: busfan
AEM7 got a prime place in my Killfile. Most of his posts are drivel. Sometimes there's good stuff, but it's not worth sifting through the trash.
1. How'd you see this post if he's in your killfile?
2. If you know it's going to be "trash" why even respond?
3. Did that 'humor removal operation' hurt at all? Do you still have the scar?
4. Why put anyone on killfile? You can miss good stuff sometimes.
5. Any chance that you are gonna read this, seeing as I'm on your killfile?
You aren't. He is.
You can view a killfiled message in the first answering post (the one that shows in the Index with a Re: in front of the thread title) by clicking on the "in response to: hot link.
I killfiled him a long time ago. I'm not sorry to miss his stuff. Sometimes (very rarely) he posts good stuff. Mostly not.
this time i photographer shot video all the way to the end of the
line for the lirr !!..........nice, like babylon !!!!
take that long beach amd stick it bog time !!
RONKONKOMA....man what a ride almost like driving across country !!!
totally enjoyed it wait till you see the pics / video !!!
going back this morning to get the inbound to nyc express !!
all aboard !!!
....................lol !!
see ? when the s____t goes down right i say so !!
( not long beach ) & i took pictures like mad & was left alone !!
yea !!!!!!!!! wooooooooooooooppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
comments folks ?? thankz .
Just don't be riding in with tha MORNING RUSH, brah!
in order 2 get a railfan window thats how its done ...
>>in order 2 get a railfan window thats how its done<<
Engineers usually operate with the cab door open in the off peak, but during peak rule says they must operate cab door closed. Now for real fun, shoot a video on the Atlantic Ave "el", portal to portal.
Bill "Newkirk"
yep ! usually they dont mind my camera ......not like the subway...
Salaam, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were having a great time! :-)
Glad to see that things are going better now.
yea !!
finally the Ronkonkoma line shot it BOTH WAYZ !!
man what a trip !! am & pm peak !!
on video and digital / stills ......& not a peep outa anyone !!
...........psssssst!..........they left me alone !!
woooooopeeee
Admittedly, at this point in time it's kind of like shooting fish in a barrel to go after the company, but to the Post's credit -- though it's not mentioned in the story -- they did have a report 3 1/2 years ago about the crappy quality control coming out of the Plattsburgh plant on the first of the R-142s.
The story also says the company's stock is down 73.5 percent from its high for the year. Not in Enron territory yet, but hovering around the level of Martha Stewart's Omnimedia in terms of plunge for 2002, at least. Anyway, it explains the recent layoffs and doesn't bode well for the future of Plattsburgh's operations.
Well, unlike Kawasaki who took over the old Otis plant in Yonkers and has the advantage of many machinists and qualified workers, Plattsburgh's legacy is refueling Air Force jets and loading nuclear bombs. New York's BIGGEST disaster insofar as manufacturing goes is the complete lack of technical education ... you can't build good things if you don't know HOW ... and I don't see anyone stepping up to the plate to CHANGE that.
Plattsburgh's legacy is refueling Air Force jets and loading nuclear bombs. That was the case before 1995 and if you were in the Air Force. Bombardier has been building cars for the Nyc subway since the 80's and they aren't going any where. The Bombardier Test department is filled only with people with a technical education, and the majority have a BA in ETE.the Kawasaki plant in yonkers is only a finishing plant where the train comes in and all they do is put the final pieces in.
Howdy guy ... first off, I'm an upstater ... I'm down between Schenectady and Smallbany ... understand that I think Bombardier of THUNDER BAY makes WONDERFUL railcars. I've ridden them in MANY cities. Aside from a few fires in Montreal (tiny ones) that were QUICKLY taken care of (and was a faulty design by STCUM) Bombardier makes really good stuff. Reality check - Bombardier's ***MAIN*** business was *JET AIRCRAFT!* How many times anybody here hear about a Bombardier jet crashing? Bonjour! :)
Knowing Bombardier like I do, there is only ONE possible explanation to explain the difference in DELIVERED quality between Thunder Bay and Plattsburgh. Somehow Plattsburgh just ain't CUTTING it. What have *I* personally seen as examples? Damned little - the ONE problem that I can grasp not actually working in car equipment is that if a pull apart is caused by a MISSING pin, I can appreciate that as a former electronics engineer and assembly line supervisor. Tells me that someone just didn't understand what they were doing.
In *MY* day, the people who DESIGNED the chit were sent to the floor once the final engineering plans, circuit board layouts, punch press panel-drilling templates set and line equipment "re-tooled" for a new product were taken care of, and sat there making sure that the folks who "insert tab into the crimping place" knew WHERE the "crimping place" (High Nihon 'crimping place' - ever read a SONY manual? YIKE!) was and only Nissei knew how to decode it and they weren't going to snitch. GEEZ.
Plain and simple, something's SERIOUSLY wrong with Plattsburgh. Same story sadly applies to our OWN local yahoo watering hole, GLENVILLE, just outside of Schenectady - a "has a militia" kinda place. That's SUPERSTEEL ...
Now to be fair, it isn't the PEOPLE'S fault. Ever take a good look at what New York State BOCES is trying to pull? They're not a "technical school" ... "GENERAL DIPLOMAS" are worth CRAP in New York State. People who pursue a TECHNICAL education in New York are spat upon by their very own TEACHERS and the administrations that FORCE this attitude onto the teachers. Learning SCIENCE is a BAD thing. And we wonder why the Chinese are kicking our butts for manufacturing? (sorry, laughing too hard to type at the cluelessness)
It's all about EDUCATION ... New York is NOT in that business. Technical Education graduates are looked down upon more than active "home relief" recipients ... what in heaven's NAME is their motivation for a kid to put themselves into THOSE shoes? "Duh, you're to dumb to graduate, here take SHOP." The BEST engineering minds in creation are THOSE who had to FIX what they designed. Think about it. Bad designed CAN'T be fixed. This is the kind of thing "general graduates" were able to do because they learned what NOT to do in lower engineering positions.
For what it's worth, I did the "ACADEMIC NYS Diploma" and went on to Fordham for a while. Then I realized that the blue color guys had more "soul" and "reality" than those black tied, "suit-covered anuses" (tm I forget who, but here's your tip of the hat anyway) ... but New York has no manufacturing JOBS because they have no MANUFACTURING JOB TRAINING! Duh!
H CARL MCCALL is who I'm voting for ... and I'm not enrolled in ANY party, so this is NOT a political ad. But EDUCATION in Plattsburgh might result in someone being taught how to TIGHTEN A FREAKING WRENCH!!! :)
responding... i do agree that bombardier is a wonderful railcar maker. they are acually better than kawasaki because i have seen it in there other railcars made for other cities also. they are reliable and refined. i am starting to be convinced that plattsburgh products are in bad shape. and it is not the products. it is the workers who build the products. i have said this before (don't know if y'all read my post) that 5 going on 6 years ago when Bombardier was building the R-142's at the time media( and i mean real media. not that FAKE ass New York Post)said that at the time they had to stop the assembly for a short time to correct some faulty wiring created by the workers who bombardier claimed was unexperienced and was forced to hire in plattsburgh. so thats why many of the products that came out of plattsburgh is said to be crap. my question is why didn't they hire qualified people to build the cars? also why didn't they build them in Auburn where the other Bombardier plant is?
Well, lest I get in trouble ***AGAIN*** here, it ***REALLY* is all POLITICS ... Senators and other various carniverous fruitbats, in order to seek re-election where they've SHAFTED their constituents and thus the numbers are "tight" provided the high hard one in exchange for largess in their OWN pasture at the expense of everyone else.
Unlike Star Trek, the POLITICAL saga is, "the needs of MY contributors outweigh the needs of everyone because *I* pocket this cash, so phark U" ... The *REAL* problem here is New York's own Anti-ADA from the "tax-cutters" ...who didn't cut *YOUR* taxes. Vote Republican, what's that SMELL?
EDUCATION is non-existent in this state. Look at how PATURKEY is making excuses for it in his bashing of McCall ... McCall realizes that New York can't manufacture a DEFENSE without some degree of EDUCATION. You can't BUILD stuff if you don't know *HOW* ... New York has no jobs because New York State Students can't TIE THEIR FRIGGING SHOES fer krissakes ... Bombardier's problems are *OUR* problems because Bombardier was FORCED by contract to hire people who can't count their BALLS and come up with the same number TWICE!
And we wonder ... Come ON! How hard IS it to have enough BRAINS to note that a damned SCREW is missing from a train coupler?!?!?!?
MADE IN NY, my ASS ... PLEASE give us better! VIETNAM can build train sets ... NY students aren't eben taught how to DROOL ... Thank you. Paturkey for those tax cuts that screwed our screwels ...
>>> it is not the products. it is the workers who build the products <<<
Unless there is something in the environment in that area that lowers IQ substantially, I would put the blame on management for poor training and motivation, rather than on the workers.
We saw that in the American automobile industry several years ago when Detroit cars were notorious for defects, but once imported cars with strict quality control started taking away sales, Detroit got its act together with the same workforce that was turning out crap before. The big change was a corporate decision to satisfy the customers rather than build at the cheapest cost. Perhaps Bombardier feels they have their only customer for this plant locked in, and therefore quality control is not that important.
Tom
"Unless there is something in the environment in that area that lowers IQ substantially, I would put the blame on management for poor training and motivation, rather than on the workers."
That's exactly right.
No. seriously, that AIN'T the case. New York State sold Bombardier "a bill of goods" in FALSELY claiming that there were "edumicated" workers available when there were NOT. Railcar Assembly REQUIRES people who know what a "micrometer" is, can actually MEASURE what millimeters ARE, and can show up for work without half a bag on.
New York State SHAFTED Bombardier, I know - we've tried to HIRE New York State employees in the past and couldn't find ANYONE competent enough around here to manufacture, drill, answer customer service enquiries, write CODE or do ANYTHING useful. Our UPSTATE company was SO desperate for QUALIFIED talent that we have a published now who hires in MINNESOTA! We couldn't find SHEET here ... in "Tech Valley" as Joe Bruno lovingly refers to our abandoned cola mine here ...
NOTHING ... we don't have *ANY* "New York employees" because we couldn't FIND any, and the tax screwage of running a software company in New York with the "State Insurance Department" and our laying off of "9,999 employees" a year ago (We work out of a building that can contain FIVE under the BEST of circumstances, but that didn't matter EITHER to Senator Joey who demanded cash in order to be left alone unless we moved to TROY) ... bottom line, ZERO employees in New York, 155 in Minnesota)
I really CAN believe why Bombardier assemblies SUCK. I wouldn't build sheet here either ... and I'm a ***LOYAL*** New Yorker. Fark.
"Railcar Assembly REQUIRES people who know what a "micrometer" is, can actually MEASURE what millimeters ARE, and can show up for work without half a bag on."
It's easier to find those people when you have a good eduation system, but surely you don't claim that Plattsburg residents are incapable of being taught these skills in company sponsored training programs? That would be saying not that Plattsburg residents are uneducated, but that they are all mentally deficient.
>>> That would be saying not that Plattsburg residents are uneducated, but that they are all mentally deficient. <<<
It sounds more like they lack a work ethic, which is a tougher thing to teach.
Tom
Hmm -- are we condemning a whole town as workshy now? Isn't anyone here old enough to remember what it was that sank Senator Muskie's presidential hopes?
Plattsburgh was PROUD to load a B52 with fuel in 12 minutes, was PROUD that not a single atomic bomb that fell on the tarmac actually WENT OFF and that not a single doublewide was lost in the liberation of the domino theory. Can they build RAILCARS? Hell, they couldn't even build a LOW-RIDE PICKUP TRUCK that didn't lean to one side or the other owing to improper connecting of hydraulic hoses. BEEN THERE, drunk that ... 'nuff said. WPTR-TV rulez ... when the transmitter works. :(
I thought Channel 5 up there was WPTZ. Don't they focus more on Burlington and Vermont anyway? Guess there's not much to report on up in the North Country. I had a Journalism professor at UConn who anchored the news up there in the 80s.
See, I don't dislike Bombardier itself, but I am frustrated as hell because the R142s and Acela Express trains have had so much trouble. They do build a lot of products all over the world. Trams in Vienna, South London, Stockholm and Kassel, Germany. The Talent DMU, which you can find as close as Ottawa and also all over Germany as well as Norway. The Oresund train which connects Denmark and Sweden. There's a lot. If everything they built was crap, they wouldn't be in business. You're right, Selkirk, Albany is to blame for the shoddy reliability of the R142s.
Yes, you're right. Channel 5 is WPTZ. Brain cramp at the time of posting. And yes, the problems up there are a statewide problem of nonexistent technical education. That's the reason why no manufacturer with any brains would set up shop in this state without the politicos holding a gun to their head. :(
But from what I'm hearing, Boston's new Blue Line cars will be assembled in Elmira by Siemens. I hope they do well. MBTA has had enough problems with the Breda Type 8 cars on the Green Line (which AFAIK, were not built in New York State).
BTW, Plattsburgh's channel 5 wasn't the first WPTZ. KYW-3 in Philadelphia, I believe, was.
Absolutely correct ... channel 3 started out as W3XE in 1932, became WPTZ in 1941 under a commercial license, NBC bought and owned it in 1956, making it WRCV. Westinghouse/Group W made it KYW in 1965. As to Elmira, we'll see ... there was at least prior manufacturing there as was the case in Schenectady where SuperSteel is. Plattsburgh had no such industrial history other than the Air Force Base ...
>>> Plattsburgh had no such industrial history other than the Air Force Base ... <<<
Auto manufacturers locating in Tennessee and other southern states have shown that a location with an industrial history is not necessary for success. I think the Bombardier Plattsburgh problem lies elsewhere.
Tom
Southern states did have one advantage though, they didn't deny students who were interested or inclined access to "shop" classes. New York's "Regents" (doesn't THAT say something right there) doesn't want ANY students going for industrial education. It may not be the MAJOR factor in the problem, but it's certainly ONE of them ...
"Southern states did have one advantage though, they didn't deny students who were interested or inclined access to "shop" classes."
I don't see why shop classes in high school or any other type of formal vocational training are required to get competent factory workers. If a company needs trained workers, they can hire people with reasonable brains and good attitudes and TRAIN THEM THEMSELVES.
Perhaps Plattsburgh doesn't have enough people with good attitudes. Maybe working for the Air Force was cushy and now they can't adjust to private employment. Or perhaps Bombardier management in Plattsburgh is a bunch of arrogant jerks who don't feel that they should need to train their workers, because in Montreal they have a fine supply of trained workers.
But you just can't blame the whole mess on bad high school educations.
Howdy ... I wasn't blaming the educational issue for being the whole problem, merely stating that it's a part of it. I agree that companies need to train employees for the specialties they will do, but at least a basic concept does help. Dunno what it is about Plattsburgh, but there would definitely seem to be a problem that needs some work.
But I know from my own experience over the years trying to hire up technical people for manufacturing positions, folks straight out of the military were about the only folks we saw that knew which end of a drill bit should be pointing out. I kid you not. :(
>>> Yes, you're right. Channel 5 is WPTZ <<<
Do they promote it as W-Putz? :-)
Tom
LOL! No, I think they call it "Newschannel 5" or "NBC-5".
We've gone by their facilities several times - it's RIGHT on the Oliver Northway as you blow through the 'burgh ... I think they're still playing the "Newschannel" bit but I watch 5 from NYC instead. Their signal is a bit "lacking" down here. We DID watch it up in Montreal though. Heh. But no, they haven't come up with that as a slogan yet. Someone might suggest it. :)
Like *ALL* of upstate, they're getting shafted in dollars for EDUCATION ... New York State now LEADS the nation in the amount of dollsars diverted for "private commercial magent school makers" at the expense of LIBRARY funds ... New York State has a thing called "BOCES" (look it up) which is responsible for TECHNICAL education, but instead is a lessor of facilities than an educational institution.
Wonder why there's no manufacturing jobs? Why, it's because there is ***NO*** manufacturing education. WHAT frigging jobs? For WHO? Look it up. New York ***SUCKS*** for technical education.
GI BILL is DEAD ... that was the LAST attempt. Got us LOTS of machinists, draftspeople, engineers, etc. That was over 30 years ago. We're all MBA's these days and financial analysts. 'nuff said, if you haven't gotten your 201k statement yet, you will ... BEFORE the elections. Check out your statement, then vote.
Tom? I'd agree with you in general principle, but in UPSTATE New York, education is about as advanced as 19th century hostels. Most school districts UPSTATE haven't had the fund to buy new library books for schools since the 1950's ... NO JOKE!
Padre Mario stared to change that, but Bruno and his clowns would rather spend SCHOOL MONEY on Amtrak stations, "A" league ball parks (at MILLIONS a toss) rather than provide libraries with BOOKS. (they'd only get BURNED ANYWAY) ... our Liberal Republican leaders would rather give AMEX tax cuts than provide TRAINED workers to Bombardier. I wish folks would realize that upstate schools are in WORSE shape than Florida or Mississippi. At least THOSE are declared disasters. UPSTATE, in "Tech Valley" where the new "high tech jobs" are CEMENT PLANTS (!!!!!!) the average worker can't READ, much less figure out what tool goes on a phillips nut.
Even *HAITI* is more technologically educated than NEW YORK ... no *WONDER* the only jobs Paturkey can come up with are newspaper recycling, cement MINING plants and maybe a hi-tech job in recycling. John Faso, his butt-buddy is running for comptroller. Enron would be GODSEND here ... we're in SERIOUS doo with what passes for "skool" up here ...
Why can't BOMBARDIER build trains? Because they're made by MORONS, government SANCTIONED morons and what we have is the BEST that republican tax cut schooling can provide.
You GET what you pay for. Ask what's LEFT of the teachers.
r142tech: you should meet some of Bombardiers personel on site. They have degrees in 'Yah Mon, we fix your train real good.' Don't know mechanical basics, have no concept of tensile stregnth and hardware marking, just follow orders. On the other hand, NYCTA SubSchool September 17th classmates are engineers/technicians/change oil and brakes/make trains go/speak English. What Bombardier hired to assemble the trainsets are unskilled laborers...the proof is already in the pudding...and TA has to eat it...and we have to clean up the remains. Bombardier lost the R-160 contracts for definite reasons, they think they'll have their bloodied hands into the project...and AirTrain is just one example of the incompetence.
Pray for continued healing of the Car Inspectors injured in the R-110 battery box explosion. Car Inspectors do their best to insure the safety of the riding public...what we do not have is control of the materiels Bombardier used in the R142 assembly process. CI Peter
The LIRR/MNRR M-7's are the last chance for Bombardier to save themselves. If the M-7 turns out to be a lemon, then Bombardier will be tarred and feathered !
Bill "Newkirk"
Agreed, especially as far as Plattsburgh goes. Bombardier probably lost at least part of the R-160 order because of the R-142 foul-ups, and according to Train Dude's recent posting, the next replacment cars won't be due for arrival until 2012 at the earliest when the R-44s are scheduled to go bye-bye. That's a long time to have a lot of people up there twiddling their thumbs...
Nah, the government will have them back to testing bombs with hammers again if Bombardier dries up. :)
bombardier will be back. they will never dry up because their products are always in popular demand by other transit agencies. they are also the largest in the world, and they are the only company besides alstom that can meet the needs of mta in terms of quantity in building rail equipment. do you ever notice that other companies never take up or never get big orders with the MTA?
Other companies occasionally bid on NYC subway car orders. CAF bid on the R-142 or R-143 order (I forget which -- probably R-142) but was rejected because at the time it did not have enough experience in building stainless steel car shells (CAF's WMATA cars had not yet been built).
David
Haven't I read on this board that New York State requires that car suppliers must assemble the cars within the state? If so, other suppliers may be deterred from seeking NYCT business because they do not have easy access to assembly facilities in the state. NYC is the biggest subway-car market in the USA, but these companies operate all over the world, and so some may feel that it isn't worth the effort of setting up arrangements in NYS. And is the reason Bombardier chose Plattsburgh (despite the lack of a suitable engineering tradition there) because it is in NY state but quite near the Canadian border, nearer to Bombardier's home sites? A friend of mine who once taught at SUNY Plattsburgh said that it was a much shorter journey to Montreal than to NYC for him.
Cheers! No, the actual legal trickery is a "points credit" ... the way the "Made in No Joke" programme works, an entity wishing to glob the contract would open up a FAKE factory in NoYuk, hire some local bowlers, hand them some titles and then file, based on the real estate lease for a facility for the village idiots, for an "enterprise zone" a false statement alledging public benefit. At this point, Governor Paturkey's office would have announced "New Jobs for New York" whereupon, he'd cut a ribbon, actually *deign* to spend a damnable day in Smallbany (where, by the way for those of you repubs into the "law is the law") the GOVERNOR of the state of New York is EXPECTED to reside in the GOVERNOR'S MANSION (I've been in it OFTEN) for his term.
OUR OWN GOOBERNOR ("George Paturkey puts the "Goober" back into "Gubernatorial") will NOT!!! live where the governor should be living (and EVERY GOVERNOR EXCEPT PATURKEY has lived in the official residence) ...
For those "out of state" who don't quite get it, lemme put it THIS way ... GEORGE ELMER PATAKI (real name, Post didn't print, I understand) has ***NEVER*** lived in the Goober's mansion in EIGHT YEARS! It's like Shrub REFUSING TO LIVE INTHE WHITE HOUSE! OK, it's OK for Dick CHENEY to dump in his DEPENDS and toddle off to a "secure location" but for KRISSAKES, Who in their right ***MIND*** would bomb ALBANY?!?! Doing so would get NYS government to shut down. That'd be a ***FAVOR***! No terrorist would make us CHEER like that! :)
ANYWAY ... YES, there were "pay no tax, everyone's a winner!" INCENTIVES from Jerry Solomon (our officially, now dead congressfish - "I'll have him HORSEWHIPPED," New York's own answer to Jesse Helms) for Bombardier to move into a cancelled US Air Force Base (one of our BIGGEST) and build choochoos there. Whoops.
Once again, I explain with EXTREME sympathy for the PEOPLE in Plattsburgh (I pay UPSTATE taxes too!) that what the job REQUIRES for "new tech" the TRAINING y'all GOT was what your buddies up north refer to as a "hosing" ... but y'all know that and understand that a JOB is better than NO job ... But because you got SCREWED by the DEMS and the REPUBS (Padre Cuomo and Paturkey) you do NOT have the skills to do this weird nonsense or are just too damned depressed by what the red states are doing or the paycheck Bombardier pays compared to what the USAF paid for "comparable wages." "Bottom line," you got screwed by your congressfish and your locals. Yeah, news. :)
Folks need to be properly EDUCATED (without getting their "paychex" screwed) ... and "Technical education" means "nigger" in THIS state. :(
>>> OUR OWN GOOBERNOR ("George Paturkey puts the "Goober" back into "Gubernatorial") will NOT!!! live where the governor should be living (and EVERY GOVERNOR EXCEPT PATURKEY has lived in the official residence) <<<
Why has he chosen not to live in the official residence? There is precedence for the decision. Former California Governor Jerry Brown (aka Governor Moonbeam) refused to inhabit the Gubernatorial Imperial Palace built by his Republican predecessor, and chose to live in an apartment in Sacramento.
Tom
Yep ... only PROVES our Paturkey's a liberal ... if what's good for "Governor Moonbeam" is good enough for OURS, maybe we need Golisano or better yet, Carl McCall (an actual FINANCIAL person who HASN'T cooked the books) might be a wiser choice. Then again, this is New York with a RICH history of re-electing MORONS every chance possible. And we WONDER why we're in the toilet? :)
But NO, Paturkey's NEVER lived in the "WHITE HOUSE" ... Dick Cheney woule be PROUD ... talk about BEDWETTERS ... any time there's a potential nasty, Dick Cheney's in the fetal position under the couch.
You'd THINK after 9/11, Paturkey would PROUDLY occupy the official housing of the Governor. Nope ... he's CHICKEN ... might get "attacked" ... Chickensheet elephant ... The REST of us "upstaters" actually POSSESS gonads. Not Paturkey ... "oooo! I might get BOMBED! ... Attacking Albany would do the rest of the state a FAVOR ... nobody's gonna do us a FAVOR if they're "terrist-type individuals."
Former Gov. Whitman didn't live in the official NJ mansion either... of course, that was partly because the official one WASN'T nearly as convenient to Trenton as her own home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yeah... considering that fact that the New York Post isn't a real newspaper
when the R-142's came in. both types caused nasty problems. of course the Kawasaki was the first to enter service, but it did have the same problems as the Bombardier version, minus the bad breaks. some of what i recalled i heard were faulty doors, brakes getting stuck, things falling from the carriage and trucks, power loss, tripping PA system and sometimes they were unable to leave the yard because of a problem. now that they are all in service they run fine but from what noticed that the Bombardier versions last longer in service than the Kawasakis. my question is if Bombardier bashing is necessary why isn't Kawasaki getting bashed since it performed identically in its debut? please respond someone. i really need clarification.
Bombardier does deserve criticism for its lack of quality control.
But there's also a lot of Bombardier-bashing which is not really Bombardier-bashing. It's posting from the subway equivalent of a "choo-choo" crowd who wax nostalgic about the Redbirds.
Subtalk does tendto attract this crowd more than other chat sites. That's fine, all are welcome, but when you read, understand the context.
>>when the R-142's came in. both types caused nasty problems. of course the Kawasaki was the first to enter service, but it did have the same problems as the Bombardier version, minus the bad breaks. some of what i recalled i heard were faulty doors, brakes getting stuck, things falling from the carriage and trucks, power loss, tripping PA system and sometimes they were unable to leave the yard because of a problem. now that they are all in service they run fine but from what noticed that the Bombardier versions last longer in service than the Kawasakis. my question is if Bombardier bashing is necessary why isn't Kawasaki getting bashed since it performed identically in its debut? please respond someone. i really need clarification.<<
Thats a good question. Even though I do remember seeing Kawasaki get bashed a few times. Well, unlike Bombarider, Kawasaki did manage to fix the problem when a new set of trains came out. That's also why more Americans buy foreign cars.
thanks alot. however about the foreign cars, they don't sell as much because they are only allowed to have a certain amount in the US and they build less amounts than the domestic. so technically they still sell less.
We all hear lately that the city's finances are in bad shape. What with the condition of the local and national economy, the aftereffects of September 11th, and ever-increasing demands on public money, the coffers have gotten rather bare. Transit fare increases, nearly unthinkable just a couple of years ago, aren't so unthinkable anymore. And it's doubtful that the city's going to be able to chip in much if anything toward major infrastructure projects.
Something I saw today made me think long and hard about the city's financial predicament. Specifically, some (though surely not all) of its problems are pretty much self-inflicted. What brought about this realization was a flyer at the deli near my job advertising memberships in the nearby Carmine Recreation Center. Located at the corner of Varick and Clarkson streets, the city-owned Center features, according to the flyer, indoor and outdoor pools, a gymnasium, racquetball courts, and a fitness center - in other words, it sounds like a very well-equipped facility.
I'm a member of a gym near my house in Suffolk County. It's a pretty bare-bones sort of place, located in a strip mall and devoid of stuff like pools or racquetball courts. Basically it just has weights and exercise equipment, which is all that I really want and use. Moreover, it's located almost 60 miles east of Manhattan, in an area that, while growing rapidly in recent years, has nothing approaching NYC-style density. It costs $43 per month, which is less than most other gyms in the area and surely much less than what a facility in Manhattan would charge.
And now for the punch line. According to the flyer, memberships in the Carmine center cost $46 per year, with seniors paying only $10 and kids paying nothing. It isn't hard to figure out that the city could be charging a lot more and still pricing memberships competitively. Instead, it's basically giving away memberships, which of course makes the center a drain on the taxpayers, and is creating unfair competition with private gyms. I wouldn't object to free or low-cost memberships for lower-income people, but the Carmine center's giveaway rates are available to everyone no matter how affluent. You can call this your tax dollars (not) at work. Next time the city cries poormouth, and starts hinting at a fare increase, think of this.
I hope no one in Congress or the NY State government who dislikes New York City gets wind of this.
I hope they do.
Otherwise nobody will ever put a stop to this nonsense.
Gee, I thought providing services that everyone can take advantage of was a more or less basic function of government. I hear that Nassau county does a wonderful job of providing its citizens with parks, beachs and the like that are second to none. Wasnt't the US Golf Open recently played on the Black Course in Nassau? I'm not a golfer but I've read in several places that the Black course is perhaps the finest public course in the country if not the world, it is as good or better than many country clubs. Yes, Nassau county's finances make NYC's look rosy, but I seldom hear any calls for Nassau to sell off the Black course. This is also an example of unfair competition with private country clubs.
I'm not advocating governments building and operating golf courses as a rule, the upkeep of even a low to moderate quality course is enormous. But NYC does have a handful of courses and in a city of over 8 million people that does allow for recreational oppurtunities many city residents might otherwise never get.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look at any governments expeditures, you will find a good number of items that could be called into question. But I would tend to feel that a recreation center like the one you mentioned seems like a good idea. The pools may seem extravegent, but the city owns and operates MANY pools aroud the city, they have been providing a great service since my mother was a little girl in the 1920's. You have a valid point about low income people benefiting, but I would be hesitant to make memebership income dependent. Those with cash most likely won't want to mingle with the rif-raf and will still go to private gyms, so why make it harder for those who can really benefit? And making it a low income type of place would add a stigma to it. I can just see a kid whose parents can't afford a private gym getting it from his fellow students "Oh, you have to go to poor folks place, we're going to Club Knock Yourself Out!"
I know I'm what some would call "hopelessly liberal" but if we applied your theory to the transit system (I'm getting this back on topic), the fare would also be income dependent. If you make less than $x,000 per year you get the Lead Metro Card, $1.25 per ride; between $x,000 and $y,000 you get the Tin Metro Card, $1.50 per ride; between $y,000 and $z,000 you get the bronze Metro Card, $1.75 per ride; between $z,000 and $r,000 you get the silver Metro Card, $2.00 per ride; and those above $r,000 per year you get the gold metro card, $3.50 per ride.
So if I'm paying already more to subsidize transit, I'll have to pay more again to use it?
Also what would be the costs of administering this program?
I agree with you 100%.
A basic function of a democratic government is to take care of its people and provide services. When there is a $100m + budget deficit,a fitness center isn't going to knock even a slight dent into it. This gym is in a high-density area, probably serves a helluva lot more people than a Suffolk one, and as long as they cover at least some of their expenses, its economical. A fitness center will NOT create that much of a crunch in competition between private gyms. There are millions of people living in this city, plenty of business to go around.
A basic function of a democratic goverment is rule by the masses. That's what democratic means.
Going to a gym is not a right. It isn't even neccessary for physical fitness. A gym is completely a luxury item and as such shouldn't be subsidized for ANY income level. Where will it end? Will a Lexus for everyone eventually be considered a necessary service? What about all the kids that have to deal with the stigma of having their parents pick them up from school in a poor folks car while their friends get driven in the Nose-in-the air Turbo V6?
I understand that children have no control over the success or lack thereof of their parents, so that's why there are public schools and the like, but for adults, people should not be rewarded for lazier and stupider.
If a person is poor because of an inability to work as a result of an unfortunate accident, or that evil bitch Mother Nature with her droughts and floods and poison monkeys, then a fair society helps that person out.
Here's a thought...
If you are that unhappy about it, start writing your City Council and elected officials instead of whining about it here.
start writing your City Council and elected officials
I figure I can get much farther by becoming pen-pals with a Ward's Island inmate.
Ceirtainly the conversations would be higher intellectually.
"I figure I can get much farther by becoming pen-pals with a Ward's Island inmate. "
If the city's in trouble, that is why.
"Ceirtainly the conversations would be higher intellectually."
More intellectual than what you just posted?
You're right, maybe you should just stick to Subtalk. You'll cause a lot less damage that way; and they'll have that much more time to read my letters instead . :0)
"I figure I can get much farther by becoming pen-pals with a Ward's Island inmate."
If the city's in trouble, that is why.
So you agree that city council members aren't exactly the brightest bulbs in the bulb box. There are some exceptions though. I don't think my current councilmember is one of them. I voted against him in both the primary and the general election because in the voter guide, he was absolutely proud of the fact that he helped stop a shopping center near Flatlands Avenue.
Then the local canary carpet had an article in which he was fighting against a proposed KFC that was supposed to (and will) replace a blighted abandoned gas station.
A few years back, the City Council voted down (with one dissenting vote) a proposal to allow superstores in rundown industrial districts. All the while, people go shopping in the suburbs taking their $ with them, or they have no car and are stuck using dirty, overpriced and understocked local stores.
What we need is not to send letters to council members' offices where they will go straight from the inbox to the trash can, because these people have their mind made up. We need regime change in City Hall.
In 2001, there was regime change, but again all of these were people who were annointed by their local Democratic (or in Staten Island, Republican) Committee because they gave blowjobs to the right people.
Maybe if we can convince people to appreciate their right to vote, and be smarter voters, then the Great Council of Idiots will cease to represent the rights of a reactionary minority and instead represent the rights of REAL PEOPLE.
Then the city can avoid being in fiscal crises every so often and still afford to spend on recreational facilities (but if there are waiting lists for things, then they are underpriced and that's wrong).
"Maybe if we can convince people to appreciate their right to vote, and be smarter voters, then the Great Council of Idiots will cease to represent the rights of a reactionary minority and instead represent the rights of REAL PEOPLE."
Are you saying that this so-called "reactionary minority" isn't as human as everyone else?
Regardless of whether the letter ends up in the trashcan at City Hall, you could be writing letter to the editors of the various New York newspapers. They are read by a lot of people.
The only people who have a right to complain are the people who put an effort into trying to change things. If you sit back and don't do a damn thing to try to change it, you should shut your mouth. Let's change the hypocrisy in American attitudes before we change how the city funds public recreation facilities.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look at any governments expeditures, you will find a good number of items that could be called into question. But I would tend to feel that a recreation center like the one you mentioned seems like a good idea. The pools may seem extravegent, but the city owns and operates MANY pools aroud the city, they have been providing a great service since my mother was a little girl in the 1920's. You have a valid point about low income people benefiting, but I would be hesitant to make memebership income dependent. Those with cash most likely won't want to mingle with the rif-raf and will still go to private gyms, so why make it harder for those who can really benefit? And making it a low income type of place would add a stigma to it.
I agree that the provision of park and recreational facilities is a valid governmental function. It's the extent of the facilities that makes a difference, however. Parks, ballfields, playgrounds, and yes municipal pools are one thing. What the city's doing with the Carmine center, and I suspect other, similar facilities elsewhere, is providing what appears from the promotional materials to be a fully equipped fitness facility comparable to private gyms. While there's no obvious dividing line between what's acceptable and what's excessive, I have no trouble in saying that the Carmine center is definitely over the line no matter how fuzzy that line may be. Just the fact that the city charges for membership, albeit a nominal sum, means that it considers the center to be something more than an ordinary facility within the domain of Parks & Recreation. If the city is going to provide a facility of that sort, it should be charging something approximating market rates, at least for those with the means to pay. By the way, I understand your point about the "stigma" that a sliding fee scale could produce, and I don't have any magic answers. That remains a problem.
Getting back on topic, I do not object to governmental funding of transit, at least not at reasonable levels. Transit is a vital function, especially in New York, not a luxury like fitness centers, and there is no private-sector competition.
Level subway fares do what they've always done in NY, which is get everybody on the subway. The extra $$$ from the rich comes from the public transit subsidy, which comes from progressive taxes. The rich benefit by having more room on the streets to ride taxis, and having enough room to build this incredible place in the first place. Much as we will always argue about a fair fare, it should be a single fare.
The facts you have provided here do not say anything about the city's financial decision. It is the job of government to provide some services independant of their raw $ profitability. To make your post carry more weight you need to find out how much the gym covers its operating costs and how busy it is. Ideally, the guy should openate AT capacity. If the gym is over capacity it should raise its rates. If it is under capacity it should lower its rates. If it is clear that few people want to use the gym it should close. The goal of the gym is not to make money, but to allow the largest possible subset of the citizens the ability to obtain physical fitness. The city has previously decided that physical fittness is worth an expenditure of money and this decision is perfectly justifiable.
The only two possible valid complaints is that nobody uses it even at the low prices or too many people use it and use it rationed by a waitlist or queue. For the former the facility needs either improved management or to be shut down. For the latter the membership rates need to be raised until demand goes down or capacity needs to be expanded (or both).
"the city-owned Center features, according to the flyer, indoor and outdoor pools, a gymnasium, racquetball courts, and a fitness center"
The contention is that this facility is going beyond what city government and park districts normally provides. While I don't know New York's park system, I can compare this supposedly lavish facility to what is routinely provided by the Chicago Park District, with which I *am* familiar.
Is it the outdoor pools that are excessive? No, CPD has plenty of those. http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.results/fac_id/4CDC3F39-61F0-4CE7-9C67-F710122F9E56*Swimming%20Outdoor%20Facilities/RequestTimeout/500
Must be the indoor pools, right? Oops, CPD's got lots of those too. Calls the older ones natatoria, but same difference. http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.results/fac_id/C4DA66E8-57BC-4DFE-98C1-5ED62640EF80*Swimming%20Indoor%20Facilities/RequestTimeout/500
So it must be the gymnasium. Well, looky here, CPD has lots of those too. http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.results/fac_id/FC3A6ABD-5F7D-4C1B-B93F-F6657481DDB1*Gyms/RequestTimeout/500
Gotta be the fitness centers. Nope. http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.results/fac_id/A375F316-6BE4-4B91-9C56-3E0F26D4A0CC*Fitness%20Centers/RequestTimeout/500
Surely, it must be the racquetball courts? Oh, my. You're right. No separate listing for Chicago Park District racquetball courts. Tennis courts, but no racquetball courts. I guess you're right, this facility goes substantially above and beyond the traditional public park recreational facility.
That doesn't prove that New York's public recreation facilities aren't overbloated, it only proves that Chicago is in the same bloat camp as New York.
New York City spends vastly less, as a share of it's residents' personal income, on parks, recreation, and culture, than the national average. Most New Yorkers don't get hardly anything in these categories that they don't pay for, in donations or fees.
Mr. Rosa has caught on to one of the very good deals for insiders that proliferate in NYC. Heck, some kids even get an education in the NYC public schools. But you have to know something, or someone, and know how to work the system.
Small deals in categories where the city spends less than average overall, like schools and parks, are unjust but not the reason why the city is going broke. Big deals in categories where the city spends more than average, like health care, housing, and pensions, is the reason.
Small deals in categories where the city spends less than average overall, like schools and parks, are unjust but not the reason why the city is going broke. Big deals in categories where the city spends more than average, like health care, housing, and pensions, is the reason.
Considering 1199's influence over city and state politics, don't expect to see a change in that pattern anytime soon. I got a few laughs about the way Paturkey is now best bosom buddies with Dennis Rivera. Blecch!
The lawyer for the couple actually has a point here when he says that at least they didn't try to drive home drunk. The downside, of course, is that since there are no back seats in M-1s or M-3s, they apparently didn't have much of choice on where to go when the urge to merge hit (if they had been in one of the lower berths on one of the double deckers it might have solved this problem...).
Meanwhile, the lawyer for the brother said, "He was asleep on the train. He was awakened by police," and promptly arrested. Court testimony on this ought to be interesting.
"The lawyer for the couple actually has a point here when he says that at least they didn't try to drive home drunk."
And they weren't charged with DUI, which would demand a stiffer penalty than they are facing now.
I think stiffness was part of the trouble.
8-)
I'll make a note of that. They didn't drive therefore they're responsible citizens who are entitled to turn a railroad car into a motel room.
Lawyers have too much free time.
Charges should be dropped. It was not a church. It was not in view of children. Come on, these are hardly criminals.
Charges should be dropped. It was not a church. It was not in view of children. Come on, these are hardly criminals.
Which just proves there are no standards anymore. No, nor Triplexes either.
Dang! Got this puppy back on topic.
Which just proves there are no standards anymore. No, nor Triplexes either.
Yeah, BMT Standards were retired before I was even born.
AEM7
I agree.....
I used to ride the LIRR back int he 1960's....people wre a little more conservative then. And in those days on the late trains out of NYC you'd see sex taking place.
Usually with the train conductor!!!!
Bah, deserving punishment would have been if someone had a camcorder, and an internet connection.
Whatever the legal system could dish out, having 1/2 the world see you have drunken sex on a train would be worse. Especially if the 'equipment' was IRT sized, not BMT sized ;)
Maybe the LIRR needs to put security cameras on all their new M-7 cars, just in case such an emergency situation arises again (yea, pun intended).
Of course, if hubby's "equipment" turned out to be the size of a Triplex, they could probably market the video over the Internet like the Pamela Anderson-Tommy Lee tape.
Yeah, but...
everyone talks about seeing triplexes, being on triplexes, etc. but really, you just don't see a triplex that often these days...
While "Triplex" equipment is certainly desirable, the ultimate certainly would have been a "Multi-Section!"
On a rush hour Lex IRT train, you could have sex and people four feet away would'nt even be aware of it.
On a rush hour Lex IRT train, you could have sex and people four feet away would'nt even be aware of it.
On a Lex rush hour train, one of the parties involved in the act, may not be aware that they were a part of it......
LOL!
Leave it to the Post to provide us details on the exact acts that were performed on this 6:05am train ....
--Mark
It sold papers, didn't it? Made (nearly) everyone here look, right? Papers that pander to the majority mindset don't have to follow the rules. :)
Just think how many people here clicked on the link AFTER they found out it gave a rundown of the details of what happened on the train......
And we wonder why Tom Cruise has become a political pundit. :)
How fast was the train going?
Do the Suspects qualify for membership in the mile-a-minute club?
Will SelkirkTMO present the awards if they do?
avid
Hey! HEY! HEY! Either *I* get some, or NOBODY gets some. Decision of the judges may need another hearing before final. Moo. :)
A trip to the "crime scene", a re-enactment of the alledged crime!
The truth will out!
avid
>>> How fast was the train going?
Do the Suspects qualify for membership in the mile-a-minute club? <<<
Uh, the mile a minute club does not refer to the speed of the train. :-)
Tom
Hahahahah ... that's it ... thanks for the finale, Selkirk end da night shift HERE ... THANKS! Hahahaha ...
This is a special case where it applies to both forms of motion.
Remeber Newtons fifth law of motion
"Two bodies in motion are subject to A REST if caught by the FORCE."
avid
NYC SUBWAY STATION SIGNS AND PILLAR MARKERS
Browse now to http://www.ebay.com and enter
"Subway Signs" in the search prompter....... ahhh!
Your point is?
those are some nifty signs and I think some of us
collectors and antiquers here might just
be interested...
Ok, did that, now what?
All Categories0 items found for "Subway Signs"
My bad so bad...
Drop the last 'S'..
All Categories
41 items found for Subway Sign
Good catch, Notch!!
Most of that stuff can be purchased at the Transit Museum gift shops.
There's a sucker born every minute, I guess.
Heya Mitch,
TM gift shops SELDOMLY have car number plates out...
Each time I go seeking one, the staff responds as if
I just asked them for a tooth extraction... It takes
MUCH to get them to even 'THINK' of looking in the
back room there.... eeesh!!
THESE here are station pillar signs... Can ye specify
precisely WHERE you've seen them at the GCT Shoppe?
At $24.99 I didn't say I'd bid on 'em... but those
among us with the thick wallets may have liked 2 know.
Thanks for barkin'! :)
my Good Deed done...
I need something to read this week. I'm not taking my car to work anymore. Gas, TOLLS, depreciation of auto, birds shitting on my car at nearly every parking facility-just not worth it. So I'm going to take the subway to and from work everyday. But I need some good reading to pass the time.
So I'm looking for books on the history of the NYC Subways. Any recommendations?
Under the Streets of Gotham by Brian Cudahy is an excellent book. It is probally out of print now, but is available at several libraries. You may want to try Amazon Books, as they can get used books (I used this to buy Change at Park Street Under as a used book).
Correction, the book is Under the Sidewalks of New York. If you go to www.metropla.net under New York City, there are several direct links to NYC subway books to purchase.
Hey, wait a second, if you're going to mention that there are direct links to buy books from a web site please mention that you can do the same thing from the Subway Bibliography right here on nycsubway.org.
WELCOME BACK, DAVE!!!!!!!
Which cat had YOUR tongue????
Twas' gettin a tad bit chilly uppa in here!!!!
:)
How about "They Moved the Millions" by Ed Davis, Sr. (known to some as BIGEDIRTMANL). It was written in the early 80's by Davis, who retired as a Motorman with NYCTA. He moved to Montana and became a Burlington-Northern Engineer for some years after that. He revised his book about 10 years later when he returned to NYC and found that graffiti was now almost non-existant as well as the R-62 cars were common on the A Division, and the R-68 was a new car to him.
It's 'self-published' with many b&w photos throughout. However, it is hard to find (the Transit Museum does NOT carry it). Best bet is call the Red Cabboose and see if they may have a copy laying around. Shoreline Trolley Museum also has them in stock.
Great book!
Big Ed may still have autographed copies available for sale.
Where is Big Ed anyway? Haven't heard from him in months. He was a great E-mail buddy of mine, but I never knew he wrote a book. I'm going to try and get it.
There is also a great new book called "NYC Trolleys in Color". Great shots of TARS, BRT / B & QT in Brooklyn and it even covers the SBK, too. The transit museum had it for $60.00 (pricey) but Kevin T. Farrell (www.trainbooks.com) was selling it for $48.00 at the King of Prussia show 2 weeks ago, so shop around.
--Mark
TRAINS Nov. 2002 claimed on p.13 that "roof panels on trailing power cars were flying off". So it isn't Amtrak's shoddy maintenance, it's a quick fix to a potential safety issue.
Wonderful Bombardier trainsets.
Over to you, AcelaExpress2005BitsFlyingOffTheBackOfTheTruck
AEM7
I would like to thank all of the subtalkers who gave me lots of good advice about railfanning the DC subway and tipped me off about the not so wonderful hotel I had originally selected. I'm off on the 11:35 Amtrak from NYC to Washington tomorrow morning.
Now, one final request for advice. I'm not much of a photographer, but I plan to be taking pictures on my trip. I'll be using your very basic 35 mm point and shoot camera. If I want to take pictures of the subway in DC (is that ok with no flash? I'm not looking to become Salaam II), what speed film should I use ASA 400, 800? I remeber from years ago, 400 would usually allow for decent indoor pictures without a flash. If I go with 800, how will that effect my outdoor pictures? Is 400 a good all around compromise? Or does that present outdoor problems in sunlight? I plan to be shooting mostly outdoors when I get to my destination (not to mention a lot of outdoor stuff in DC).
Again thanks for all your input! It is greatly appreciated.
>>>>If I want to take pictures of the subway in DC ....<<<<
I'd be careful with them. Remember, those are the same paranoid SOBs that asked Dave to remove the track maps of their system from this site. Ask first.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hear you on that!
That's why I asked the question here, I was hoping to get some information from someone who lives in the area or has been there recently. I would like to get some pictures, but I'm looking to spend a few days in Washington and West Virginia, not the DC Jail.
BTW The Colorado Railcar DMU will be in town this week (3-6 Oct 2002) for the Rail Volution meeting. Most likely it will be on display in Union Station.
Railway Age has a meeting on 16 Oct and the DMU will be back in DC again.
The Colorado Railcar Site said only 5 Oct (Saturday), so it may be only one day.
Found THIS info on their website.
Peace,
ANDEE
I haven't had any trouble from them since 9/11. I actually think more passengers have questioned what I was doing as opposed to employees.
I would strongly recommend using 800. Your outdoor pictures will come out fine, perhaps just slightly grainy. You're right that 400 will allow for normal indoor photography without flash, but (a) subway stations are generally darker than the typical indoors, and WMATA is certainly no exception, and (b) most indoor photography is not of fast-moving trains. Go with 800. I used 400 in Washington and I got gems like this one:
If you need film, stop by B&H on your way out of town. It's on 9th between 33rd and 34th and you'll find 36-exposure rolls of 800 for $3 (or of 400 for $2). Adorama has the same prices, but it's on 18th between 6th and 5th -- a bit less convenient to Penn. (Keep in mind that B&H has an elaborate multistep checkout process, so leave a few extra minutes. If you happen to be in the neighborhood, Adorama's quicker.)
I like the effect of that photo, Dave!
Even if you didn't accomplish what you had intended, you have a neat photo there, worth displaying.
David,
Thanks for the info. I'll definately get the 800 and the price at B&H sounds very good. I'll make the trip on my way to Penn tomorrow AM..
Piggo
Thanks David for solving a photography dilemma that I've been pondering for the past couple of days.
On October 11, I'll be heading north to Canada for picture taking of the buses & trains. I was wondering the difference between 400 & 800. So David, if I read your post correctly you`re saying that if you had used 800 film the botched picture that you had taken of the DC Metro would had come out very well, and that outside photos would have come out a little less than 100% (grainy).
If that`s the case, I`ll use 800 for underground or nighttime shots, and 400 for regular daytime shots.
And don`t worry guys, you`ll be seeing the results of my work. Thanx again.
What cities in Canada do you plan on visiting?
I have used 800 for both outdoor and indoor shots. The outdoor shots came out perfect, and the indoor shots are slightly more grainy than I would like, but it's better than blurry.
Outdoor
Indoor
Where in Canada?
-Robert King
I'll be going to Montréal and Québec City for 6 days.
Don't be afraid of the Bombardiers up there ... for some strange reason, they WORK. :)
Zman... I'd take this offline if I had your email address, but since I don't... when my wife and I were in Québec City two years ago we dined at two excellent restaurants, one of which in particular was good enough to make us consider planning another vacation just to have an excuse to eat there. That one was the Restaurant aux Anciens Canadiens, which obviously catered to the tourist trade but whose cuisine was absolutely superb. I recommend the Bourguignon de caribou à la crème et au vin DuBleuet (served in a puff pastry). Diagonally across the street was the Crêperie le Petit Château, another excellent restaurant that had a fair mix of locals there as well as the tourists.
Oh, and bring your walking shoes... the hills are very steep. We had taken the train from Montréal and walked all the way to our hotel with luggage, uphill beyond the Parliament building. Had we any clue as to how tiring that climb would be we would have taken a cab. Downhill back to the train wasn't nearly the problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the restaurant recommendations. I will DEFINITELY hit the Crêperie. If the locals go there, then you know that it's got to be a nice place.
And sorry for the lack of an e-mail address. I've had too many wacko e-mails from foamers so I discontinued posting it.
Enjoy! And, let us know how you fare photographically when you get back.
-Robert King
I agree with Rob that the grain is only really obtrusive underground, where the only other choice is blur. The only reason I don't always use 800 is that 400 is a bit cheaper.
I can't say that my Metro shot would have come out much better with 800, but odds are that it would have come out a bit better.
As for 1600, I think it would be wonderful for the subway (I still get a lot of blur with 800, though less than with 400), but I'm not sure if I want to spend $4 on a roll of film. Maybe I'll give one roll a try and see how it comes out.
In my case, though, I'm looking to go digital. All I do with my prints is scan them, and since the beginning of 2001 I've spent over $500 on film and developing, and prices have risen. That means that, if I continue at my current rate, a $500 digital camera will have paid for itself by the end of 2003, even if my time is worth nothing. Any recommendations?
Thanks for the photo advice.
Looking at the underground photo listed in Rob's post, it sure does appear that 800 wouldn't be the way to go if the station is well lit, but it would be perfect in the case of the Washington Metro since the majority of stations there are rather dark.
Just to expand on a point I made in another reply to you - as long as you can tolerate the grain, you can always go with a faster (higher ISO) film. This has a number of useful points - the camera can use a faster shutter speed (less motion blur on moving objects) and/or a smaller aperture (produces greater depth of field). Cameras are generally better at dealing with too much light than too little light.
In my case, though, I'm looking to go digital. All I do with my prints is scan them, and since the beginning of 2001 I've spent over $500 on film and developing, and prices have risen. That means that, if I continue at my current rate, a $500 digital camera will have paid for itself by the end of 2003, even if my time is worth nothing. Any recommendations?
Recommendations? Yeah, stay with film! I got a really spiffy 3.1 MP Canon Powershot G1 about a year ago. It's pretty good for nice holiday snaps, but forget it for anything of value. Either the autofocus will trip you up and you get a blurry train and a prefectly focused background, or you will drastically under or overexpose constantly.
I don't shoot train pics much any more, just regular day-to-day things, family, pets, etc, but I usually have to take 4 or 5 shots, play with bracketing, etc, just to get something acceptable.
Try shooting a picture of a temperamental cat with a fluffy white belly on a green carpet and see how many digital tries you'll have to mess with before you get shredded by an irate calico.
The answer is eight.
You're thinking "OK, maybe he's a lousy photographer and he's blaming his equipment." Well, maybe, but the 3 newspaper awards I have from the 80s (when I was the guy hunting fires and crashes at night) might say differently :-)
When I went on vacation up to the Maritime provinces of Canada last month, I blew off 8 rolls of 100 and 200 speed film and about 500 digital pics (both my wife and I took turns with each camera). Invariably, the quality was an order of magnitude better with my Nikon FM2 (pry *that* puppy out of my Cold Dead Hands) than the Powershot G1.
It might also be feature fatigue on my part as well...I'm used to setting exactly TWO things on my Nikon before I shoot. Aperature and shutter speed. I don't have to worry about the zillion menu items etc. Three if I use a flash, and four if I bounce it.
With my film camera I count pictures per second (with the motor drive). With the digital camera--always and forever set to full-resolution mode--it's how many seconds per picture. This "feature" alone drives me bug-f---.
I spent almost $750 for this beastie when it was new because it was the only one that allowed full manual as well as auto. Full manual my feathered fanny. Like depth of field? How's F8 sound as your smallest aperature. Like to try nice artistic shots of flowing water with a slow shutterspeed? Good luck if it's a nice bright sunny day.
For train and tunnel pictures, nothing beats 400 or 800 speed for me. Take a look at http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/eastside/cityhall.html or my book cover to see why I say that.
Sorry to rant. I don't mean to sound angry, but I feel I was sold a bill of Digital Goods. Yes, it's a LOT less expensive in the long run, and if you're just after a way to take some fun pictures that you can quickly and easily upload, it's a dream come true for that. If, on the other hand, you make photographs instead of taking pictures, do yourself a favour and find a nice old mechanical Nikon, Canon, Leica, etc, and create to your heart's content.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Sorry to rant. I don't mean to sound angry, but I feel I was sold a bill of Digital Goods.
BTW, all the pictures I've posted references to that have file names of the form 639Cxxxx were taken with a digital camera. That's the good news. The bad news is it is a Canon EOS 1D, which has a street price of about $5K (body only, no lens) and good lenses start at about $500 and go up (waaaaay up) from there. It shoots 8+ shots per second in its fastest drive mode.
I used film exclusively for a long time. When I decided to get back into photography after a long hiatus, I bought a cheap Canon Rebel G with the kit lens in early 1997, just to see if I was still any good at it. In my first day of using it, I had 2 award-winning shots. Later, when I decided to do this semi-professionally, I used 3 Elan 7 bodies (one with B/W film, and one each with two different color films). The WTC pictures were shot with the Elan 7 and scanned at 4000 DPI, 42-bit.
I decided I needed an even better camera body for some work, and bought an EOS 1v HS. If you've ever seen one, it's a lot of camera. Rather than learn by trial and error, and wait hours to see if my effects shots were coming out, I bought the EOS 1D body just to perfect my 1v film technique - the 1D is the exact same body as the 1v, except it is digital instead of film. But I soon wound up using the 1D for just about all assignments. I get nearly-as-good prints with a lot less work, and a lot less disk space (a 35mm scan at 400DPI/40-bit is over 100MB, a 1D RAW image is about 4MB, and it makes JPEGs at the same time).
Canon has just introduced the 1Ds, which is an 11+ megapixel version of the 1D, and I'll be getting that as soon as it is available. I've had no problem producing acceptable 13x19 prints with the 1D, and I'm hoping to do 20x30 with the 1Ds.
A lot of this technology should be filtering down to the cheaper, non-interchangeable-lens digital cameras. Those cameras actually do have an advantage - since they don't have to use 35mm SLR lenses, they don't need a huge image sensor and can therefor use smaller lenses, saving on costs. The biggest difference you'll probably see is the speed and accuracy of focusing. [The 1D has 45-point autofocus across the full frame and can track focus while shooting at the 8+ frames per second rate.]
I'm with you, Peter... I have a stable of Canons and Exaktas, all manual everything, and a good collection of lenses ranging from 20mm to 300mm (high quality) plus a 325-650mm half-binocular zoom (average quality, but it did nicely at the Grand Canyon last year). Kodachrome rules! (Now if I could just find a scanner that can handle Kodachrome without major issues at a price I can afford... Kodachrome's unusual grain structure and special dyes, so wonderful for archival permanence, make scanning a major problem.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the advice. I'm afraid I'm not a pro -- I'm more of an overenthusiastic amateur -- and I can't afford to continue paying as much as I am now for this hobby. Scanning is also a huge time drain (right now I have a backlog of 14 36-exposure rolls), and I'm certainly not getting great results out of my free-after-rebate Memorex 6142u scanner. (If I had a film scanner, it might be worth sticking with film, but that's another big expense.)
What I'm hoping to find is a digital camera that isn't too expensive that meets or exceeds what I have now -- at least 800 ASA (1600 would be nice), a decent zoom lens (my film camera goes up to 135 mm, but that's probably asking too much), and the option to store photos in a lossless format like TIFF or PNG so I can edit the images later without producing artifacts. I don't know if such a camera exists now, but one might in a few months.
I know how you feel about all the automatic stuff getting in the way -- but my Canon SureShot Z135 is all-automatic as well, so I don't think I'd do any worse with a digital. If anything, many digital cameras seem to have manual overrides that my Canon doesn't have.
Thanks again.
I have a backlog of rolls also, that I still have to sort through. It's time consuming. I wish I had more time to deal with it. I usually take slides though, as they supposedly last the best. I'm more into quality than quantity. I just bought a slide/film/etc scanner. It seems to work pretty well on the slides. The problem I have with digital photos is that the photos will not last like regular film developed photographs, although you do have the option of reprinting them, provided you don't loose the files, or the computer doesn't crash.
Although, digital photos are great if you just want to shoot off many photos inexpensively. I guess it all depends on the person, and their reasons for taking their photos.
"The problem I have with digital photos is that the photos will not last like regular film"
Not really, If you burn the files onto optical media, like a CD or DVD they will last longer than film emulsion.
"you do have the option of reprinting them, provided you don't loose the files"
Same goes for film, you can reprint them as long as you don't lose the negatives.
BTW.. what film scanner do you use?
I'm at work now, so I don't have the model number, but it's a Canon. I got it at Best Buy, it was about $149.00. I only had it a week, but so far I am happy with it.
I'm more of an overenthusiastic amateur -- and I can't afford to continue paying as much as I am now for this hobby. Scanning is also a huge time drain (right now I have a backlog of 14 36-exposure rolls), and I'm certainly not getting great results out of my free-after-rebate Memorex 6142u scanner. (If I had a film scanner, it might be worth sticking with film, but that's another big expense.)
You may want to take a look on eBay and see what shows up there. There are some good negative scanners from Minolta that are a few years old (I borrowed one from a friend last year) and do a remarkable job that can be gotten for a good price. My caveat, though, is before buying a used negative scanner from eBay, check the manufacturer's Web site to see if there are drivers available for your OS. The Minolta didn't have speciic Win2K drivers and it was a real problem. It was SCSI, and the best I can say was it worked
when it was the only device on the chain. Under 98 it worked like a dream.
That said, if your primary reason for going digital is expense, then you may be in luck. Beware, however, that to get images of decent quality you'll need to get at least a 3 Mega Pixel camera, if not 4 or more. I use a 3.1 from Canon, and when I *do* get a usable image from it, it can be blown up to an 8.5 x 11 and looks almost as good as film. But I wouldn't blow it up any more than that. The problem is that 3 and 4 MP cameras are still rather expensive up front, and you also need to run with at least a 128 Mb card that will add another $50 to that.
What I'm hoping to find is a digital camera that isn't too expensive that meets or exceeds what I have now -- at least 800 ASA (1600 would be nice), a decent zoom lens (my film camera goes up to 135 mm, but that's probably asking too much), and the option to store photos in a lossless format like TIFF or PNG so I can edit the images later without producing artifacts. I don't know if such a camera exists now, but one might in a few months.
I don't think most consumer-grade digital boxen have ISO speeds above 400 (my Powershot G1 has settings for Auto, 50, 100, 200 and 400--and 400 is noisy as hell!)
Optics on these cameras are *nothing* like optics on fixed-length lenses for 35mm cameras of course, but since you're already using a PHS camera (Push Here, Stupid < grin--I'm joking >) with (I'm guessing) a non-interchangeable lens, that shouldn't be a problem. I think my G1 does the equivalent of a 35mm-105mm zoom on a 35mm cmera.
You can indeed save as high-res RAW format on Canon, and most others will let you save as a TIFF, but remember that in doing so, you drastically reduce the number of images that you can store on your memory card. For example, I use JPEG format, 3.1 MegaPixel when I shoot, and I can fit 71 images on a 128 Mb card. If I go to RAW mode, that number drops I think 64 or 65 (I don't even remember how to get it into that mode, so I can't easily check).
As Terry mentioned in another post, if you want top quality in digital, be prepared to pay through the snout. For me, I'd never do it, but then I no longer shoot much of anything other than family and friends any more (kinda lost the bug a few years back).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
I think it might be worth my while to wait another few months before making a purchase.
Keep in mind that I don't care about prints. All I do with prints now is scan them and put them in a pile. Even 3 megapixels sounds like a lot for posting on the web.
Thanks again for the advice.
3 m.p. is a lot for posting on the web. Even 2 m.p. (1600x1200 or so) is too much. I recently upgraded to a 4.1 Sony S-85. (last year's model, around $550 now). That gives you an image of around 2270x1700. Way too much for the web! So for posting pictures to the site I'd resize down to 800x600 but keep the bigger one for getting prints made.
Oh, don't worry, I'm not going to send you submissions that large! I edit everything. (That's why I'd prefer PNGs or TIFFs.) Especially if I don't have as wide a zoom range as I do on my current camera, I want to start huge so I can crop and make whatever changes need to be made. Of course, then I scale down as appropriate.
In what conditions would one use 1600 type film?
I am using your regular 35mm Ricoh camera for my shots, and stated in a post a few minutes ago that I'll be using 400 for outside shots, and 800 for underground/nighttime shots.
I'm just wondering for what purposes 1600 is used?
Thanx.
It sounds like you want some photographic background info, so I'll oblige. Forgive me if the following is too basic/not what you were looking for.
All other things being equal (which they never are 8-) you want the lowest ISO film that will do the job. Lots of film makers provide film down to 100 or so, and specialty films are available in the 5 to 25 range. The lower the ISO, the finer the grain.
However, slow film will need either longer exposures, more light, or both. For transit photography, 15-second or longer exposures and a couple floodlights won't work, so we use faster film.
If you are photographing stationary trains without people and use a tripod, you can get by with slower film (since even with a long exposure, you won't get any motion blur since neither your camera nor the subject are moving). I find I can hand-hold acceptably at 400 to take pictures in the subway, if the train isn't moving. For example:
(Kodak Royal Gold 400, f4.5, 1/30 sec)
Once you or the trains start moving, it's time for faster film. Either 800 or 1600. If you won't be shooting anything in daylight on the roll of film, I'd suggest a good 1600, otherwise 800. Here is a shot at 1600 using a 400mm image stablized telephoto:
(Fuji Press 1600, f4.0, 8 sec)
And now, a couple specific hints:
1) Use a good 800/1600 film to minimize grain. I like Fuji Press. Unfortunately it is only available in packages of 20 rolls from places like B&H. This is what pros use when they shoot things like basketball games. I just checked and B&H has Press 800 single rolls for $2.95 and a 20-pack for $59.00, while the Press 1600 is only available in 20-packs for $79.80.
2) Print film is far more forgiving of exposure errors than slide film.
3) As a side effect of #2, most 1-hour photo places (and similar) are going to use automated printers which try to make your prints have the "expected" brightness. So pictures like a moon on a dark night will usually have the "dark night" turned up to a nice 18% gray level. If you're taking pictures like this, I'd suggest telling the operator to manually adjust levels on the prints. Of course, this only works in a smaller lab - places that send out film for processing or where the person you talk to isn't the person making the prints are likely to be problematic. Some people will tell you that you should use a pro lab. My experience is you'll pay a lot more and not get prints that are much better (and in some cases, worse). The WTC picture I posted above was developed by my corner mini-lab, and scanned by me from the negative.
Thank you for the info Terry. Basic info is exactly what I am looking for. After all, I'm a T/O and not a professional photographer (far from it).
Last thing that I ask is what lab would one suggest to develop say one or two rolls of 800/1600 film (and how much would I expect to pay?). I have taken many night shots which either barely came out, or had that wonderful "18% gray level" on it which ruined what little of a photo actually came out. Last thing I need is to go up to Québec to take bus shots and get nothing but gray blurrs. Since I really haven't had any success with nighttime shots though, I'm only going to "experiment" if you will.
I would be looking for a lab in Manhattan or Queens.
If the camera correctly exposed the film (or at least came close), then you can always have the negatives re-printed by a different lab if the first lab can't/won't hand-adjust the print levels. You should be able to eyeball the negatives to see if there are different densities, or if they're almost completely clear (meaning a seriously underexposed negative).
Many point-and-shoot cameras will refuse to shoot if they can't come up with what their sensors tell them will be a useful exposure. Others will fire when you push the button, no matter how bad a shot it will generate. Without knowing what brand/model your camera is, I can't tell you which you have (and unless it is a Canon, I probably won't be able to tell anyway).
However, if you shoot at 1600 you should be Ok if you're shooting indoors, or outside at night.
If you don't want to spring for a carton of the Fuji 1600 before trying it, I could give you a roll or two to play with (you could shoot in NYC and develop before leaving, as a test). I'm going to be in Queens near the Jamaica Yard Thursday evening and Friday - you could email me if you wanted to meet somewhere to get the film.
BTW, here is a large (1.25MB) image from the recent Steeplecab tour. It is the lower level of 9th Ave, shot with natural light (a few bare bulbs) through the window of the Triplex at ASA 200. This was done with a digital camera, but it shows what can be done if you're willing to throw enough money at the problem (the gear that took this shot was about $10K). This isn't a great shot (I took it in a hurry before exiting the train for better-composed shots) but it does show you can get good shots at slow film (or digital equivalent) speeds.
Oh, and what speed is your lens? The typical "kit" lens on a 35mm is a medium zoom (28-80 is a common range) with a relatively slow speed/small maximum aperture (f4.5-5.6 is common; smaller numbers are better - and bigger - with pro lenses being in the f2.8 or better range).
BTW, here is a large (1.25MB) image from the recent Steeplecab tour. It is the lower level of 9th Ave, shot with natural light
I'm so kicking myself for missing that tour. Abandoned stations are my absolute raison d'etre of railfanning, and because I was out of print and working on the next edition, I decided to sit that one out. Gaaaah!
BTW, what a wonderful photograph of the Twin Towers of Light. One of the best I've ever seen.
Z-Man: Don't worry about a lab if you're shooting pictures of busses top-side. Any good photo-processing shop or even corner store will do a good job with those. With pictures from the Metro, however, I'd bring them to a photo shop where the operator can control the printing process. The Metro is a wonderful system and I cut my teeth on shooting it when I was a teenager. Unfortunately, those images are lost forever, but I recall some wonderful stuff back then--when the only cheap colour film I could afford was Kodak's ASA-80 print film (in the METAL containers)! Most of what I shot was Tri-X and Pan-X monochrome.
I've never tried 1600 before, and I'd like to blow off a roll sometime myself. I may buy a pack and see how it goes. I assume that this should be kept in the fridge or freezer. I still have 3 or 4 rolls of 800 Fuji in the freezer that are a few years old (I have been shooting far too much digital lately).
Back when I was able to get into some fun places in the subway I was shooting only 400 and 800, and unless a flash failed to fire, I always got good to excellent results myself.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
BTW, what a wonderful photograph of the Twin Towers of Light. One of the best I've ever seen.
Thanks! I have a large gallery of them (several hundred shots) but most aren't on the web. In general, they only land on my web page when someone wants to see a preview before purchasing a large-format print. here is one from a less extreme zoom, and here is one with a super wide angle.
Back when I was able to get into some fun places in the subway I was shooting only 400 and 800, and unless a flash failed to fire, I always got good to excellent results myself.
Sure, if you're using a flash you can get away with slower film. But there are a few problems with flash - it's prohibited for one thing, and even with a pro flash, the objects we photograph are large enough that we get a lot of light fall-off at the edges of the frame. here is another 1.25MB image from 9th Ave - looking into the area past the end of the platform.
I bought a roll of Fuji's 1600 slide film two years ago, just to see how good it was for general photography in low light situations including the subway and dusk/early dawn. In the subway, I had a filter on my lens to counterbalance out the effects of the flourescent lighting which, with the filter factor, reduced the effective speed of the film to around 800. So, it was rather grainy when projected and there wasn't too much depth of field since I won't drop my camera's shutter speed to less than 1/60th of a second unless I absolutly need to in order to get a shot I absolutely need to have.
Personally, I've settled on doing 'clandestine tripod operations' in the subway to get only an extremely small number of very specific shots. Planning is everything: One shot (not including any braketing) of one train in one station and then out of there, into the street and into a coffee shop for a while for things to calm down, if a complaint goes out but I always try to be as unobtrusive as possible and never venture into restricted areas. I also very rarely do this, too, and the only time I've run into 'Salaamallah' trouble was once, before I devised this method.
Back to the 1600 film: To date, I've only shot the one roll of it, but on that test roll, I did find a good application for it. It's fantastic for doing handheld pictures of streetcars at dusk. The colour rendition (as I'm able to see it) and the film's overall appearance with the grain is very artistic, although this is usually a secondary concern when railfan photography is concerned and, personally, I'm usually not a fan of big grain at all.
-Robert King
Bill, I'm assuming that you're not a member of the Fourth Estate, so it may be difficult to get a permit from WMATA for photography (I presume you've already seen Andee's post with the info), and even if you can they probably wouldn't issue it on the spot. So you might want to be extremely careful. With the rail convention in town this weekend, you'll probably be OK at Union Station, particularly in the area of the DMU, but the subway is another matter entirely.
With that in mind, I'd consider two things: one, pack ASA 64 or 100 film for general outdoor shooting and in areas where flash is permitted (assuming you're going to be in any such - it's getting harder and harder to even find "ordinary" museums that permit flash, and that goes long before 09/11) and two, a "disposable" (read: ultra-cheap fixed-focus) camera loaded with 800 or even 1600 for any shots you might choose to risk in the subway. It's so grainy that you will be VERY disappointed in any outdoor shots you take.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Use 800 and do not use flash! Also, just don't be too obvious about what you are doing and I would stay away from Pentagon and Capitol South (although I have not personally tried either myself since 9/11). I haven't had too much trouble since 9/11 but you never know. I would photograph at Woodley Park, National Airport, or Smithsonian if you want to blend in as a tourist.
The latest issue of Newsweek has an op-ed piece by Allan Sloan about federal funding of Amtrak and the airlines. The piece expresses the view that there is a double standard, with Amtrak being expected to make money while airlines are not, and calls for a more level playing field. It's good to see that opinion being aired in a mainstream publication. Not that anyone will listen, but it's a start.
Mark
I was standing by the railfan window on a Q slant, about 7:00pm last night on my way home from work. As we were heading south past Church Ave. I was holding on to the door handle when the door just opened. I quickly closed the door, but it was nice to feel the wind on my face, and have an unobstructed view of the Brighton Express run.
I remember someone posted here a while ago how the storm doors used to be left unlocked more often years ago.
If anyone is interested the lead car on that train was #4416, maybe someone on this board is interested in shooting a railfan video from that car? :-)
End Storm doors on the operating motors must be locked and it is a rule that requires this. Most T/O's check the door when they get on their train but sometimes the door is locked but not closed all the way or just plain unlocked.
I've seen Slants just from the yard at Brigthon beach with unlocked end doors. I've just knocked on the cab door and told the T/O. Most times they thank me and lock it at the next station stop.
That's pretty cool. I've checked countless storm doors and they've always been locked for me. I think a T/O once yelled at me for checking the handle.
--Brian
I once checked and found the door would open. I told the T/O and he was very appreciative. He told me he could be severely disciplined for forgetting to check it himself (I guess by that time he realized I wasn't a TSS).
I instinctively check the door handle whenever I stand at the window -- if I'm going to use it as a support, I'd like to know it isn't going to slide away. I only once found it open, also on an R-40. I informed the T/O as I got off at Queensboro Plaza and he thanked me.
I give the handle a tug-tug occasionally as a train starts moving. Once while on an R-21/22, I tugged on the handle and the door opened! Perhaps it hadn't properly latched, as the handle was locked.
I had one slide open on me at DeKalb Ave this summer on an R-42. I told the motorman who then locked it and thanked me profusely.
--Mark
?, maybe someone on this board is interested in shooting a railfan video?
i would have if they did not act like such a fool these days !
stopping folks from shooting videos !
I'm not suprised, the locks probably get weak after all that jarring by people at the railfan window. :-0
>>> I remember someone posted here a while ago how the storm doors used to be left unlocked more often years ago. <<<
Unlocked? I can remember riding on the 3rd Avenue El on hot summer days with the storm door open, and only the chains across the doorway. That was the ultimate railfan window.
Tom
An unlocked storm door on a lead or trailing car should be reported to transit personnel. It may have been fun for you, but I would not want to have someone else accidentally ejected from the train that way.
Standards of safety were different then, Ron... I'm older than you by a fair chunk and I suspect that Tom's got a year or two on me as well. We remember, somewhat nostalgically, the days when people were willing to be responsible for their own safety, and willing to accept that if they chose to stand near an open doorway on a moving train and something happened that it was their own fault, not the fault of some faceless entity called the TA. We grew up before seat belts and backup lights in cars, back when you didn't lock your house and you left your keys in your car because you didn't want to wear holes in your pockets. We grew up in a time when we knew who our enemies were, when our biggest worries were annhialation in one gigantic flash at the hands of the Soviet Union rather than being "nibbled to death by ducks" called terrorists. We are of your parents' generation, and we think and act accordingly.
Soapbox mode = OFF.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> We grew up before seat belts and backup lights in cars, back when you didn't lock your house and you left your keys in your car because you didn't want to wear holes in your pockets. <<<
Add to that, a time when mothers routinely left their babies sleeping in their carriages outside of a store when they went in to shop, and latchkey kids (I started in kindergarten having to cross 2nd Avenue to get home, and living less than a block away from the unfenced East River) were the norm among single parent working class families.
Tom
Right you are, Tom. When I was in first grade (age 5 - I skipped kindergarten) I came home to an empty house almost every day because both of my parents travelled extensively, and I'd have to heat my own supper or fix a sandwich a couple of nights a week (my great-aunt and -uncle checked in by phone a couple of times each evening and had me over for dinner every Tuesday night, and I often had invites other nights of the week as well from other folks). After I was badly injured in an accident the summer before third grade my grandmother stayed with me in our house for the first two months after school started, but once I could manuever around the house without a wheelchair I was on my own again. (The school bus driver would come to the house and carry me out to the bus until I was able to get there myself on crutches - I'll never forget you, Mr. Arnold.) Was it the best way to grow up? No, but at least I learned to cook at an early age, I learned how NOT to raise my children, and I learned that there really are a lot of good, caring people in the world.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That happened to me as well when I was a kid. I was riding the D train express on a set of R42's. We were on the exp track around Avenue M when I held on to the handle and the door opened. My mother freaked out. My sister and I were banned from our favorite pastime on the subway for at least a year until my mother got over that incident. That's why I liked riding the train with Pops. Stuff like that didn't bother him, and he understood that this was an isolated event.
Thanks for your help Notchit. You're just what we need. Someone who posts incidents, times, locations, and CAR NUMBERS. Keep up the good work!
I remember a few weeks back I rode car 9611 on the 7 Express and its storm door was open. I placed a sign on the door saying that the door was open and some "stoonad" did not know what my sign meant. Then he realized "uh duh" door is open.
I think 9610 is now a lead motor north. Will just have to wait for the next time that 9611 is a lead car south. WEE!!!! Easy scenic pics and filming!
#9611 7 Flushing Express
WMATA Press Release located at:
http://www.wmata.com/about/MET_NEWS/200209/pr_referendum.cfm
This morning, I took the 8:30 out of Cedarhurst toward Penn Station. This train starts out of Far Rock at 8:21. At some point between Locust Manor station and the Jamaica Underjump the train stalled. At first a door malfunction was suspended. All the doors were set to bypass but the train still would not move. Finally, after a delay of about 30 minutes, the engineer ran the train from the last cab and one of the conductors acted as lookout from the front cab.
Does anyone know what happened? It made me real late to work.
"Finally, after a delay of about 30 minutes, the engineer ran the train from the last cab and one of the conductors acted as lookout from the front cab."
Amazing that they still allow that. I don't have an informed opinion as to if it's really 100% safe, but I would have thought that past mishaps here and there would have made that an unacceptable practice.
>>>>>>>>>>Amazing that they still allow that. I don't have an informed opinion as to if it's really 100% safe, but I would have thought that past mishaps here and there would have made that an unacceptable practice.
What did you expect them to do, leave the train there and wait for a supervisor and make everybody even later for work? Guess what, ain't gonna happen. You have to do what needs to be done in order to move that train. No such thing as discharging a train in the middle of nowhere on the LIRR/MNCR 99% of the time. Crews are thoroughly trained with breakdowns and what needs to be done when they occur.
The procedure that they were performing is called a "flagging" procedure. The conductor acts as the eyes of the engineer by providing a continuous, unbroken means of communication with the engineer by either voice communication or by buzzer communication. If the voice or buzzer stops, then the train immediately stops. Of course, you're not going to do 55 mph while flagging. You'll have to go at a reduced speed (with the NYCTA, maximum flagging speed is 10 mph).
Well, they did it.
I've been pushed in a dead 4 car LIRR bilevel train (engine completely crapped out, not even hotel power) by an MP-15 pulling 5 coaches of its own. They transferred us to the old coaches at the next stop, but we continued as a double train like that from Glen Head all the way to Jamaica at 10MPH. We must've been quite a sight!
Operating from the wrong end of the same train suddenly seems a whole lot safer, eh?
yea well these old M1s are feeling their years so they are becoming problematic alot lately. In Metro North our M1s arent bad, but since i work the overnight shift in Grand Central, EVERYTHING possible has happened to these old cars. especially third rail stall! and u were late because according 2 one of the special instructions, i forgot which one exactly. I believe one of them says, when ur train must be run from any cab except the front cab, u must call the Movement Bureau ASAP. they probably gave the brakeman instructions on how to move the train. Now since this happened in 261 territory on the Atlantic branch, he can run on either track except they wouldnt do that in rush hour. so his only option is to run with RESTRICTED SPEED, with extreme caution. so they probably had to set up ABSOLUTE BLOCK for him
Remember that MTA managers monitor this board from time to time.
Not with your last post, but overall watch what you say. Especially since you're on probation. You don't want to lose what you've just gotten.
Who actually "own's" the SIRR west of St George..the abandoned rite of
way & the bridge to NJ. I read the Port Authority will invest a bundle in the Howland Hook container facility..and will transport via
the RR..to NJ & Beyond... Anyone have some info on this...?? thanks.
The ROW west of St. George is owned by the NYC Economic Development Corporation. The New Jersey side of the line, and the bridge, are owned by the Port Authority, leased by the EDC. Norfolk Southern is the operator designated by the EDC once the line is opened. THe PA recently purchased the Olympia Trails bus depot site and some other adjacent properties to build a connection from the Chemical Coast line to the SIRR. Operation is expected to begin in 2004, with up to 10 trains per day using the line by 2007.
-Hank
the line in new jersey is leased to the morristown and erie i thought. they also have rights on the rahway valley line
Hank: As always your the man to speak to when Staten Island comes up.
What was the purpose of the Travis Branch? I had always assumed it was to deliver coal to the Con Ed plant there but Lou from Brooklyn informed me that the plant never burnt coal.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Did they recently change the schedules for the Pennsylvanian? It used to leave Pittsburgh going eastbound at 11:30ish AM, now it leaves at 1 PM. Can anyone confirm this and prove that I'm not imagining things?
Why don't you check www.amtrak.com?
www.amtrak.com doesn't give you the old schedules. He's wondering whether he is right in thinking it used to go at a different time.
I see.
Amtrak's April 29, 2002, timetable has the Pennsylvanian (train 44) departing Pittsburgh at 11:35 AM.
Thanks
Excuse this post if it is a repeat, but I was wondering when the Jamacia el was abandoned between 168th and 121st. I think the portion between 168th and Queens Blvd was in 1977 and the rest sometime in the early 80s. Does someone know exactly?!?! Furthermore when was the portion of the Fulton El abandoned between Rockaway Ave and Hudson? I figure it had to be between 1952 and 1956, but when?
Thanx
-Eric
Excuse this post if it is a repeat, but I was wondering when the Jamacia el was abandoned between 168th and 121st.
Queens Blvd to 168th was abandoned on September 11, 1977. 121st Street to Queens Boulevard on April 13, 1985. Archer Avenue was opened on December 11, 1988.
Furthermore when was the portion of the Fulton El abandoned between Rockaway Ave and Hudson?
April 27, 1956.
Todd that would be a perfect time for the trip. The last weekend of opeation and not too many persons on property so we would have run of museum what do you think? Todd,Subtalkers discuss Stevie
Unfortunately I'll be on another corner of the country on a business trip, otherwise I'd love to.
"business trip"
Hahaha hohoho hehehe....Yup
Hey Stevie,
How about it, go South on I~95 to Connecticut, instead of North to
Maine and join us. A bunch of SubTalkers coming, Steve B 8th AVE EXP,
Selkirk TMO & Nancy, CI Peter, David Cole and your hosts from
SubTalk & Branford, the 3/4 toners Thurston [Mr. RT]; BMT Man;
Big Lou from Brooklyn, John S aka Sparky also on hand Anon_e_mous,
North Jersey Coast, Jeff H. and others.
Have you ever visited Branford? You know who I am, operated 13 of
the past 16 years and am a Seahore Member also.
So how about it Stevie, we'd love to have ya.
;|] Sparky
And of course, what *I* would enjoy immensely is having some of my RTO buddies from here along - torture Unca Selkirk at the handles, grab some Arnine and see how things used to be in de hole. It'll make you a little more grateful for that cranky 68 you're running. :)
And no politics. Heh.
Kevin,
Stevie's a beantown boy. Very knowlegable of the MBTA. He would
add flavor to our gathering telling us about the caws & gards.
;| ) Sparky
Cool! I spent some time there myself many many years ago. The more the merrier ... and the more folks we have, the fewer sandbags we'll need to load. Just kidding. :)
Thanks for the invites everyone. i would like to take you up on the offer. my health hasnt been good this summer so we will have to see. i would love to come. Stevie :-)
If you CAN make it, be pleased to meet ya! Hopefully you'll catch a second wind and can join us. Would bribery with chowdah be out of the question? :)
I'll hopefully be there, too.
Excellent! The LIRR will be represented....cool!
The House of Representatives has approved more funding for construction of the Second Avenue Subway, though it’s just a drop in the bucket for the long-awaited line. The house gave 4 million dollars towards the 10 billion dollar project which is suppose to take 8 years to build. BTW: There is a uncomfirmed report that groundbreaking should begin in about 2004 or 2005. Don't dispute me about being wrong and stuff because you are fortold I'm most likely wrong.
Also, there was a wake for the train driver who died while testing the Bombardier Airtrain.
"There is a uncomfirmed report that groundbreaking should begin in about 2004 or 2005. Don't dispute me about being wrong and stuff because you are fortold I'm most likely wrong."
That's not a rumor. It's in the Capital Plan.
("There is a uncomfirmed report that groundbreaking should begin in about 2004 or 2005. Don't dispute me about being wrong
and stuff because you are fortold I'm most likely wrong."
That's not a rumor. It's in the Capital Plan. )
It's a rumour until funds are "encumbered." That's the technical MTA term for money being reserved and available, not ever to be diverted somewhere else.
As for the $4 million, I don't refer to her as Carolyn Baloney for nothing. The purpose of the $4 million was to get her name in the newspaper, and as long as that will do the trick, that's all we're getting. But at least she's pushing the issue.
>>It's a rumour until funds are "encumbered." That's the technical MTA term for money being reserved and available, not ever to be diverted somewhere else.<<
Ah. I C. So technically, the MTA can begin construction on the Second Avenue line anytime in the near futute as long as theres 10 billion dollars, am I right?
What a joke. $4M toward a $10B project? Political grandstanding and nothing more.
This is the equivalent of giving a $16 bonus to an employee making $40K per year.
Congress should be ashamed. Instead, they issue press releases. And the morons in the media latch on and print them.
CG
Has Anyone Heard the announcements on the New tech trains running on the #4 line? I Took a R142A 4 train home from skool today from Bedford Park Boulevard, and it was a pretty nice ride. Just when I thought the voice from the #2 train was IRRITATING, This voice tops it by leaps and bounds. Why is this voice so "Jerky"? I mean, there is a long pause between " The Next" and " Stop Is:" , and a long pause between " This is a Manhatten... Bound" and " 4 TRAIN!!!!" ( Why is He/ She / It shouting?)
ALL thoughts, rantings, comments, thread drift, and ravings welcome!!
( Pleeze, I'm on my knees and begging)
I too have heard that voice, I think because simply its the 4 Lexington Avenue Line the voice shouts. But it not as fluent as the R-143 voices.
what!!!!!an R142a on the #4 no way,i thought they were only on the #6
til next time
The #4 line has two sets of 142A's with more to come.
There are at LEAST ( from what I counted on the EL ) 3 sets in service. I was on 1 and saw 2 going the other way.
well there's 4 sets of them in service.I saw all 4 sets today plus I rode one of them too.
they seem to be spotty. one week i would see 1, another i would see 3 another, 0 another 4 then 0 again
My mistake, I belive they are Kawasaki R-142's.
No mistake. Kawasaki's cars ARE R-142As.
David
it does not matter the ANAHIEM ANGELS won tonight !!
..........lol
they did? cool!LET's GO ANGELS!! heh.ok I'm a sports fan so that means I root for more than 1 team in baseball,basketball,hockey,and football.I say between the Yanks and Angels,make the best team win.
I'm a fan of both teams so it doesnt matter to me which way it goes.
i thought the yankees came back and trounced them?
No, they lost Wed. night. Tuesday's was the one they came back. Awesome game, not *that's* postseason ball :)
well... to be honest, the announcements on the 4 line out flank the 6 line as the worst sounding announcements out of the new trains. i have to take the 4 to school and i dread riding the r142a on that line. the announcements make me cringe and make my blood run. i am happy when the announcements aren't working.
I saw the new LIRR cars pass me at Woodside going towards long island around 1:30 or so. The cars were going so fast i could not see if anyoner was on them but was able to see the digital code that said Hillside facility. Guess the new cars are rolling.
i saw it a jamaca before you did .....like a big dummy i missed a
good digital shot i could have taken on it & the lighting was in the
exact right place where i wnated it to be !
( oh well )...
i saw it a jamaica before you did .....like a big dummy i missed a
good digital shot i could have taken on it & the lighting was in the
exact right place where i wnated it to be !
( oh well )...
"Guess the new cars are rolling."
They are in testing, but not in revenue service yet. -Nick
Is it true that the first M-7's are supposed to go on the Long Beach branch?
I've heard that as well, but I'm somewhat skeptical. Unlike the TA, most LIRR rolling stock doesn't stay on any one particular line. A morning train from Ronkonkoma to Penn may then go light out to Freeport to make a second rush hour trip, and then do a Penn to Huntington local round trip.
Perhaps the first trip is a Long Beach to Penn or Flatbush trip, but I haven't seen anything official.
CG
I saw them TWICE today !!
12:45PM eastbound passing Copiague station and 9:13PM westbound passing Massapequa station. They have M-3 horns.
Bill "Newkirk"
yea guys. i see the M7 cars alot myself too. they always appear at night so i can never get a good shot of them. also rumor is they are supposed to make runs on the Long beach and Huntington lines. my assumption is they will prolly either make the same run everyday or prolly get tossed around the electric branches.
I was at Forest Hills station today. The train arrived westbound about 1:20, and returned eastbound about 2:00. Is this the usual test schedule? I want to go back tomorrow.
Well I have a whole list, but I am going ot keep them in the world of the possible, and get things done on a line needs done basis. With that the obvious 1 would be to rehab the J,M Lines in Manhattan and in Brooklyn, and fix up the West 8th Street stop, finish installing the New Master Towers throughout the system quickly. Make South Ferry into a 4 track-10 car terminal for Terminating 5 and 1/9 Lines. I would quickly Rehab the entire White Plains road Line. Then begin construction on the Sunnyside Subway Yard, and get the additional train capacity.
What changes do you propose?
"Make South Ferry into a 4 track-10 car terminal for Terminating 5 and 1/9 Lines."
How would you do that? The 5 comes from the north and the 1/9 come from the northwest. It takes some pretty sharp curves just to get them parallel for 5 car lengths. No reasonable way to get them parallel, and STRAIGHT, for 10 car lengths.
First: Do whatever is necessary to turn 137th, Dyckman, or some other station on the 1/9 into an adequate terminal (with three tracks and two island platforms, perhaps) so that the busiest part of the line can practically run at a full 30 tph without running unnecessary service to the Bronx, jamming up the only existing terminal.
Second: Rebuild Rogers junction so 5 trains to Flatbush don't eat up capacity on the West Side, as they do now. Alternatively, do some political magic and send all 5 trains to New Lots. Then fill up the West Side IRT express tracks to capacity. The junction north of 135th would probably also have to be reconstructed so SB 2's and NB 3's don't interfere.
How about this instead
Lines
1. Local service all day long
2. Same
3. Same, except some rush hour trains go to E 238 Street or 137 Street Broadway
4. Same
5. Lexington Avenue Express
Dyre 5, express all day in the Bronx from 6:00-12:30 to Manhattan, and 12:30-8:00(leaving Flatbush signed as an express) to the Bronx.
238-Nereid 5, extended (6:15-9:15 AM last train leaves E 238 at around 9:15 am, 4:00-7:00 PM last train will leave Flatbush at around 7:00 pm) give WPR riders more express service, with all day 5 express service in the Bronx. Compromise if Dyre riders want to have all day express service, they will have to put up with more 238 Street 5 trains, also WPR riders will have to get more rush hour service, it's only fair.
After Brooklyn service ends, #5 trains serve South Ferry during the evening (some begin right before rush ends). #5 is also extended to South Ferry on weekends as well.
6. Same, except late nights, #6 is extended to South Ferry and Bronx express lasts until 10:00 pm to match the #7 line.
7. Same
8. Lexington Avenue Local/South Ferry-Bowling Green Shuttle
Middays: Shuttle between South Ferry and Bowling Green
Rush Hours: Lexington Avenue Local (peak direction only), Bronx Express via Jerome Avenue From Bedford Park Blvd-200th Street and South Ferry skipping all stops between 149 Street Grand Concourse and Burnside Avenue. When PM rush is over, #8 service ends, #5 service runs to South Ferry.
9. 7th Avenue Local/Broadway Express
Middays: between 137 Street Broadway and South Ferry.
Rush Hours: peak direction from South Ferry, to 238 Street, skipping all stops between 96 Street and 137 Street, laying up at 240 Street yard, when PM rush ends, #9 service ends once all trains go to the yard
how bout "Impossible Service Changes"? you cant have all 3 Lex. trains running together after Brooklyn Bridge plus the 1/9,5,6 all together at SF.that's mega impossible,even though I know it's a fantasy idea.
Read again, the #6 will only be there during nights, the #5 and #6 will only be there together for about a 15-30 minute span between 11:00-11:15 pm. The #8 trains are limited, meaning that #4 service will slightly be decreased by a few trains(rush hour only) because they will be running on the same line in the Bronx, otherwise it is a shuttle and will not go past Bowling Green (weekdays only)
Read again, the #6 will only be there during nights, the #5 and #6 will only be there together for about a 15-30 minute span between 11:00-11:15 pm and maybe between 6:00-6:15 am as well. The #8 trains are limited, meaning that #4 service will slightly be decreased by a few trains(rush hour only) because they will be running on the same line in the Bronx, otherwise it is a shuttle and will not go past Bowling Green (weekdays only)
Here's my proposed services for the IRT:
1 Same
9 Same
2 Same
3 Same
4 Peak express service between 125 St and Burnside Ave
< 4 > to Woodlawn via exp, (4) terminates at Burnside, making local stops.
5 Operates to South Ferry mid days and weekends, Bx,Bk service same
6 Late nights to South Ferry
7 Same
"First: Do whatever is necessary to turn 137th, Dyckman, or some other station on the 1/9 into an adequate terminal"
How about this as an idea:
1/3 of all 1/9 trains are 242nd St locals making all stops.
1/3 are 242nd St expresses skipping 137th through 103rd. With luck this saves enough time that they can leapfrog one local.
1/3 are Dyckman St locals making all stops. Turn trains on the middle track north of Dyckman. Use switchmen so that each train is manned at both ends as it changes direction, obviating the need for a T/O to walk the length of the train and making it OK to leave passengers on the train. The cost of the switchmen is offset by the reduced need for all crews to go all the way up to 242nd.
That still sends much more service to the north end of the line than is necessary. There shouldn't be as much service to 238th as there is to 103rd, and there shouldn't be two-thirds as much service to 238th as there is to 50th.
Unless you boost service to 30 tph (total), expresses often won't pass locals. The express run probably saves about two minutes.
And, unless the rule is changed, passengers have to be cleared out before a relay even if the T/O doesn't have to move from his position.
Route all night & weekend Williamsburg Br. trains up 6th Av. This would definitely being more riders than the desolate Nassau line. since the policy is to give Manhattan lines two locals in the midnights, this would serve that function (The F is incredibly slow off hours). Weekends it can run into Queens like the V, or something.
For those coming from Chambers and Canal, you can have a shuttle from Essex to chambers, but if you build the transfer from Bleecker uptown platform to Bway-Laf, then they can take the 6 (and 4 at night)
At the very least the off-peak M should be rerouted up 6th Avenue. Having it terminate at Myrtle nights and weekends as it does now is inconvinient and wasteful.
I know this is a "fantasy" but they should tear the current Marcy Av station on the J,M,Z and build a new 3 track 2 island platform station & get rid of that senseless S-curve to/from the Williamsburg Bridge by reconfiguring it to a straight turn.
Pros:
a. The middle track to/from the bridge could have switches that could be built to merge/switch to/from the bridge rather than switching after Marcy Av.
b. I agree that the current M shuttle is a waste. The M shuttle could be extended from Myrtle Av to Marcy Av & it could terminate on the middle track when it is not used on weekends and late nights, providing shorter waiting times between Myrtle & Marcy Aves.
c. This would cut a few minutes of traveling time.
Cons:
This is not likely to ever happen but you never know.
I would like your opinions on this.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
For that they could just use Essex middle. They did this while Myrtle was being rebuilt, and it improved travel somewhat (direct connection to the F)
I forgot about that, maybe because it is a very odd double platform. What is the purpose of that? Anyway, it would be a good idea to bring M's to Essex to make connections with F's but I still say Marcy should become a real express station with double island platforms. Only thing is that when a GO occurs on the bridge it can't go on Essex.
From most important to least...
1) More W service badly needed!! maybe rename the < Q > to the T, and half the T run to West End, the other half Brighton express.
2) Reuse BJ tracks. It's real crowded at the stairs of Delancey/Essex with people going down and people going up.
3) Fix Bergen Interlocking- Even at 15tph, the F is packed!
These are only IND/BMT proposals since I'm not much of a IRT fan nor a IRT genius.
"More W service badly needed!! maybe rename the < Q > to the T, and half the T run to West End, the other half Brighton express."
Really? You have the M supplementing the W and it's still crowded?
" Fix Bergen Interlocking- Even at 15tph, the F is packed!"
Maybe that's because it's not 15 tph coming in from Brooklyn. The MTA schedule says 12 tph.
M is less packed but people rather take an express, they'd even get off a M at 36 St and take the W to Pacific, then take the same M. But the main reason for the W crowding is because it is the only bridge and only Bdwy express service from 4th Avenue and it saves a hell lotta time. Say you're at 36 St Brooklyn and you're trying to get to 57 St/Bdwy. The W would take 25min to get there. The N would take 35min, and the R would take 40min. After the Manny B gets fixed, West End should get to bridge services (12tph)(Brighton also as it is now).
And maybe you're right about the 12tph on the F since I don't look that deeply into the schedules, but either 12 or 15, Culver gets really crowded.
Your times are off. As usual, the express feels faster than it is -- I'm surprised your numbers are actually so close to reality. According to the posted schedule, the W takes about 28 minutes from 36th to 57th when it runs express and about 39 minutes when it runs local.
West End riders are fortunate in having both bridge and tunnel options. No other line in Brooklyn has both options -- the Brighton has only the bridge and the Sea Beach and 95th have only the tunnel. Sea Beach and 95th passengers have no choice but to transfer if they want the bridge; Brighton passengers have no choice but to transfer if they need the tunnel. If you want the bridge but don't want to wait for a W, why not take an M to DeKalb and transfer there to a Q?
How crowded do W's get, anyway?
"West End riders are fortunate in having both bridge and tunnel options"
West End riders want need the tunnel, they want to get to work in MANHATTAN, and same goes for Brighton. Most of the tunnel passengers come from Bay Ridge or people who want a slower yet less crowded ride to Manhattan. You ever see the amount of passengers at Canal St? Compare the # of passengers waiting at the express lower platform to the local upper platform, the ratio is a good 2:1.
"How crowded do W's get, anyway?"
Sometimes you would have to wait for the next W because of the crowdiness (in Brooklyn gound northbound that is, i don't know about manhattan and astoria).
I'm sure you're right that most West End riders want the bridge -- but don't some want the tunnel? By removing the M, you'll be denying them any chance of direct service.
More importantly, don't you think most Sea Beach and Bay Ridge riders also want the bridge? You had suggested that, when the bridge is fully reopened, the extra capacity go to the West End. The West End already has a lot of bridge service. Shouldn't the extra capacity go to the Sea Beach instead? (Unfortunately, the track layout makes direct Bay Ridge - bridge service difficult without reducing service overall.)
I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about crowding on one of their options when another option, which may be a bit slower or may require a cross-platform transfer, is mostly empty. If W's are too crowded for your taste, take an M to DeKalb and transfer across the platform to the Q, or do a bit of climbing and transfer to the IND at 9th Street or Fulton or to the IRT at Pacific, Court, Fulton, or Chambers. Millions of your fellow passengers take advantage of these transfers.
"How crowded do W's get, anyway?"
W's going northbound to Astoria, it has a good crowd since they took out the Astoria express, when trains would be almost empty and delays were commonplace. There's a good chance you'll get a seat on the W.
W's going southbound, once you hit 34 St its crowded, no seats but you'll have standing room and if you ride it sometime, try to get a seat by Canal St or you're screwed until 36 St or 9 Av.
Hope this helps.
My changes for the B Division are as follows:
A Operates to Far Rockaway, all times
C Extend to Lefferts Blvd, late nights shuttle service
E Service remains same
B operate to 179 Jamaica via 63 St, all times, 6 Av local late nites.
D Via CPW local to 205 St, Norwood, Brighton Exp weekdays to B.B.
F 179 Jamaica via 53 St weekdays, late nites Coney Island- West 4 St
V Eliminated
G Service remains same
S Rockaway Pk Shuttle remains same.
J Skip-Stop service all day 5:00 AM - 10:00 PM
M Service returns to Brighton weekdays via local to Coney Island
Z Jamaica Center-Bedford Park Blvd via CPW express weekdays 5:00 AM-10:00PM
L Service remains same
N All times Coney Island-Astoria
R Service remains same
Q Bay Pkwy-57 St-7 Ave, via West End Peak Exp, weekdays
W Eliminated
S Franklin Ave Shuttle remains same
The D and Z would have to cross at Bedford since access to the express is from the outer tracks that go to 205th Street.
D has been and should be CP express and Concourse.
Because the M is local in Brighton and D is express, Brighton local riders would have to transfer to get anywhere north of Delancey St, which is bad.
Broadway should have at least three lines on weekends. The N and the R alone are not sufficient. The weekend Q or W should stay.
OK then. A little update in my service patterns.
Q service will run as follows:
M-F 5 AM - 10PM Bay Pkwy-57 St, 7 Ave via Bridge and Bdwy Exp
10PM-5AM Bay Pkwy-Ditmars Blvd,Astoria via 4 Ave/Bdwy Local via Tunnel
R service:
M-F 5AM-10PM 95 St-Jamaica Center via Bdwy/Queens Blvd local
Sat, Sun, Holidays,Late Nites 95 St-Continental Ave via 4 Ave/Bdwy local
N service:
Daily 5AM-10PM Coney Island-Ditmars Blvd via 4 Ave/Bdwy local
10PM-5AM Coney Island-59 St-4 Ave
Z,D,C services:
Z Terminal swap to 168 St via CPW local
C Terminal swap to Bedford Park Blvd or 145 St
D Will resume express on CPW as it is now.
Brighton service patterns will not change between M and D, however I may consider running peak express service on both D and M trains on Brighton express. Midday service, both may run local or skip-stop service may be reinstated.
This assumes a fully functional Manhattan bridge come 2004:
A: 207th St. to Far Rockaway (all times) or Rockaway Park
B: Bedford Pk. Blvd (rush hours), 145th St. (middays), Pacific St. (weekends) or 36th St.(nights) to Coney Island via Sea Beach
C: 168th St Washington Heights to Lefferts Blvd, all times except nights, when it operates as a shuttle from Euclid to Lefferts
D: 205th St, Bronx to Brighton Beach via Brighton express (weekdays), or to Coney Island via Brighton local (other times)
E: 179th St, Jamaica to Chambers St, all times
F: Jamaica Center to Coney Island via 63rd St. Express in Brooklyn weekdays to 10 PM, local other times
G: Court Square to Church Ave., all times
J: Jamaica Center to Broad St (same as today)
M: Metropolitan Ave to Bay Parkway or 9th Ave or Myrtle (same as today)
N: Astoria to Coney Island via Broadway express south of 34th St, 4th Ave and West End to Coney Island. lae nights runs local in Manhattan and Brooklyn via tunnel
Q: 57/7th to Coney Island via Broadway express & Brighton local, weekdays to 10 PM
R: Forest Hills to 95th St (same as today)
V: Forest Hills to Church Ave via 53rd. St, weekdays to 10 PM
W: Astoria to Whitehall St. via Broadway local, weekdays to 10 PM
1: Same
2: Flatbush to Dyre Ave, all times
3: Same
4: Same
5: 241 St. to Flatbush (weekdays), Bowling Green (weekends), E180th (nights)
6: Same
7: Same
9: Same
Franklin and 42nd St shuttles: Same
Here's what I would do on the letter lines(since your looking ahead to 2004):
A:Service would be the same.
B:Same as pre 7/22/01 BUT it would be a West End Express from 9 Av to Bay Parkway then all stops to Coney Island(unless they do work at Stillwell Av) in the peak direction 6AM-10AM MB, 3PM-7:30PM Coney Island bound
C:Would replace Broad Channel shuttle to provide better service. Would see service to the Rockaways again by running from 168 St to Rockaway Park all times except nights where it would run from Euclid Av to Rockaway Park.
D:Same as pre 7/22/01
E:Service would be the same.
F/V:(F)Restore Culver express between Jay St and Kings Hwy.
a. Kings Hwy bound F's and G's or V's (to Church Av) would run as the local service(s) while Stillwell Av F's will run express.
b.All F's are express while G's run to Church Av all times and V's will run to Church Av or Kings Hwy weekdays in the peak direction.
(V)Runs between Kings Hwy or Church Av and 71-Continental Av,making all stops 6AM to 11PM weekdays
G:Trains will no longer terminate at Smith-9 Sts. I would restore trains to at least 6 cars. Would be extended to Church Av all times(depending on demand). Service would be the same as current G service north of Bergen St(Court Sq-Church Av until 10PM weekdays, 71-Continental-Church Av other times)
J/Z:(J)Would move J to the local track in Brooklyn. Would no longer be express between Marcy-Myrtle Aves unless a M increase happens. Extend it to Broad St all times except late nights(where it would terminate at Chambers) to give passengers transfers to the IRT and the A,C lines.
(Z) Make Z's express from Marcy Av to Broadway Junction then start skip stop at B'way instead of Myrtle Av in the peak direction & service times would be expanded(6AM-10AM MB, 3PM-8PM Jam. bound)
L:Service would be the same
M:Increase service on this line because it is needed, especially because of B'way & the West end portions. Service would be the same.
N:Restore Manhattan Bridge express service via B'way(stopping at 49 St). Would run all times except nights on this pattern unless Q's have expanded weekend service. Find a solution to make a Astoria express work.
a.Rebuild other Sea Beach express track(if possible since its in very poor shape)
b.If kept as 3 tracks, would run in the peak direction(a local sevice would probably have to be added, I was thinking of the W)
Q:Same as post 7/22/01 BUT I would experiment a weekend Brighton express. Would run from 7AM-7PM
R:Service would be the same
S:{Franklin} Service would be the same
S:{42 St} Service would be the same
S:{Rockaway Park} Would be replaced by a extended C
W:Would run between Coney Island via Sea Beach & Montague St(this would allow N's to run via Sea Beach express since the current service is slow) or Whitehall St and Astoria making all local stops. Would run weekdays 6AM-10PM.
Weekend service is a possibility if it:
a. Runs as a shuttle from 59 St to Coney Island(if there's switches that can make it work).
b. If the N is the only express service on Broadway on weekends
How does this look?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
If 6th Avenue is going to have three weekend services, then the minimum of services on Broadway should be three, so I like your idea of weekend Q or W service continuing after 2004. Broadway is a popular line on weekends so having only the N and the R as the only two weekend Broadway services won't cut it. The 6th Avenue line tends to be fairly quiet below 34th Street on weekends, so it possibly could get away with only two weekend services. 6th Avenue, under no circumstance, should have more weekend service than Broadway.
here's my ideas for post 2004. B 145 street 9th ave extend to bay parkway to Betford park rushhours. D as was pre conttuction F coney island 179 street exp peak in brooklyn. G extend to church all times exccept nights N in express in broolyn via bridge exp to 42 street. V extend to canaarie via broodway brooklyn rush hours. Q/Q dimond as present diamond W all time coney island to 57th street express 36 street to 57 sthreet weekdays evening and weekends stop at dekalb
Sounds good to me. I think if the Q doesn't run on weekends, then the B shouldn't run on weekends either. Why? Because the loads on the Manhattan Bridge need to be evenly balanced as much as possible. If we go back to having more service on the north tracks of the bridge than on the south in 2004, then the same old structural problems will reoccur.
If we go back to having more service on the north tracks of the bridge than on the south in 2004, then the same old structural problems will reoccur.
This is the same stupid crap that people said before, and it is STILL untrue. Let me explain how this works, AGAIN!
Whenever a train crosses the manhattan bridge, that side dips. The work on the bridge is to alleviate SOME of that dipping. It will never entirely dissapate.
When trains ran on the north side, this dipping only occured on the north side. Same for the south. Prior to 1985, (last time both sides were open) the bridge was NOT re-enforced. So, when a "D" train ran on the north side, then the bridge dipped on the north side. Same for the south. The only time the bridge DID NOT DIP was when there were trains at the same point on both the north and south sides of the bridge simultaneously. This is unfeasable for scheduleing. Can you imagine a Q train waiting at canal for it's balancing D train? And then waiting again when that D train crossed ahead of it at DeKalb? Northbound, it's pretty impossible, trains will have to wait on the bridge for their balancing train. This is dumb, isn't it?
The present work is to alleviate dipping by adding larger X bracing, (and other elements I can't remember, it was in the Times). In reality, there will NEVER be an end to Manhattan Bridge work, it will always be in need of repair. The thing is that it should be minor repairs, since we shouldn't have to worry about Deferred maintenance, and the bridge is better equipped to handle it.
This is something that just annoys the hell out of me. It's stupid.
"We have to schedule trains not according to how ridership demands, but to how the Manhattan Bridge tells us to. Let us sacrifice a redbird to the great Manhattan Bridge god for good fortune after 2004!"
Amen to that! Great post!
"We have to schedule trains not according to how ridership demands, but to how the Manhattan Bridge tells us to.
Scheduling involves track topology, as well as ridership demands, for maximum throughput. The DeKalb junction is a case in point. There are 3 tracks north and south of the station in each direction. With a nominal capacity of 30 tph for each track, for a total service level of 90 tph in each direction.
How to achieve this? Assume there are 6 different services, each with 15 tph: Brighton Local; Brighton Exp; West End Local; West End Exp; 4th Ave Local and Sea Beach Exp. Assume the following arrive at DeKalb at the same time: Brighton Local; West End Local and Sea Beach Exp. The Brighton Local goes to 6th Ave via Bridge; the West End Local goes to Nassau St via Tunnel and the Sea Beach goes to Broadway via Bridge (not stopping at DeKalb). Two minutes later the following arrive at DeKalb at the same time: Brigthon Exp to Broadway via Bridge; West End Exp to 6th Ave via Bridge (not stopping at DeKalb) and 4th Ave Local to Broadway via Tunnel. This scheduling has nothing to do with Manhattan Bridge loading but it provides balanced loads on the Manhattan Bridge.
Not all services need 15 tph operation. Reducing some service levels would introduce non-uniform headways which would cause delays due to increased dwell times and throw off the schedules. The method usually employed to avoid operating extra equipment is to size the train length to equalize load levels. This is what the BMT did to keep trains moving through DeKalb with their steel car shortage. Unfortunately, NYCT's link bars prevent such optimum use and passengers must suffer delays inherent with non-uniform headways or less frequent trains.
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. I have always pretty much ignored the whole argument that the Manhattan Bridge is doomed -- it isn't even worth dignifying with a response.
"The work on the bridge is to alleviate SOME of that dipping. It will never entirely dissapate."
All bridges (and structures for that matter) experience some degree of deflection of flexure when a load is applied. That load may be a point source, such as a vehicle, or a nonpoint source such as wind. Some bridges just deflect more than others. Those that deflect more must be able to handle it. And that is what the construction on the Manhattan Bridge has done.
"The present work is to alleviate dipping by adding larger X bracing, (and other elements I can't remember, it was in the Times). In reality, there will NEVER be an end to Manhattan Bridge work, it will always be in need of repair. The thing is that it should be minor repairs, since we shouldn't have to worry about Deferred maintenance, and the bridge is better equipped to handle it."
All bridges require constant repair. However, this is a very different era than the era of deferred maintenance that almost lead to the Manhattan Bridge ending up in the East River.
The mistake was made back when the bridge was built. It is one of the greatest design flaws in 20th Century Civil Engineering. But (no pun intended) it is water under the bridge. We must live with the Manhattan Bridge, it will reopen in 2004, and the bridge with proper maintenance will be able to handle the load.
Matt
This reply is not meant to be a cute reply but a real question:
Let's say the city asked you to design a new bridge. What would your design be like. What kind of bridge, number of tracks, etc.
I'd put up a clone of Hell Gate Bridge. You'd figure a steel arch would flex a lot less than a suspension span.
Might be a bit long for an arch... the longest arches in the world are currently the Sydney Harbour Bridge, the Bayonne Bridge, and the New River Gorge Bridge in Fayetteville, WV - all are in the range of 1600-1700 ft main span.
The existing Manhattan Bridge has a main span of a bit over 1700 ft, but an arch would need to be longer since it needs to be anchored solidly into the shorelines on either side.
Bridges in this size range nowadays are typically built as cable-stayed bridges. For rail you'll probably be better off with a tunnel.
Yeah, a tunnel is the real answer.
For the optimal solution? Yeah, I would have to say tunnel too.
Matt
Summary:
Rail: Tunnel is better on several counts. Suspension-type bridges don't bear all that well under concentrated (i.e. not distributed) loads. Bridges over navigable channels need to be high enough to allow ship traffic to pass below and that requires long and/or steep grades which trains don't handle well, certainly requiring a slowdown in speed. Cantilever or truss-type bridges (drawbridges if necessary) seem to be the best for trains, but that wouldn't be a viable solution for the East River due to its width and the frequency of ship traffic underneath.
Vehicles: Bridge definitely. It's cheaper. It doesn't require expensive, power-hungry, maintenance-requiring ventilation. You can put more lanes - 2 or 3 lanes in a single tube tunnel with 2, maybe 3 tubes versus 12+ lanes on a double decked bridge. To the best of my knowledge these are the number of vehicle lanes on NYC area bridges and tunnels:
Tunnels: Battery, Holland, Queens-Midtown: 4. Lincoln: 6
Bridges: Goethals, Outerbridge, Bayonne, most of the smaller Harlem River crossings: 4. Brooklyn, Whitestone, Throgs Neck: 6. Manhattan, Henry Hudson, Tappan Zee: 7 (the first also carries 4 rail tracks). Williamsburg, Triboro, Alexander Hamilton: 8 (the first also carries 2 rail tracks). 59th Street: up to 10 (but usually 8). Verrazano: 12. George Washington: 14 (with space on the lower level for transit tracks, currently unused).
I think that covers most of them. Bridges have more lane capacity than tunnels, all else being equal, and don't require ventilation like vehicular tunnels. Tunnels do better for trains for several reasons.
Matt and others. Here is a contest with no prize.
Design 2 bridges (no photos please unelss they are on a web site)
specs:
first bridge- four subway tracks- need not be on the outside can be double decked- to replace Manhattan Bridge. Must be able to tie into existing subway trackage at both ends.
Second Bridge- three subway tracks- need not be in center. Must tie in to Essex and Marcy. To replace Williamsburgh Bridge. I am adding a thrid track so there could be express service from Essex to Broadway Junction or reroute due to G.O. or disabled trains. I know the thrid track at Marcy would have to be extended.
Both bridges must be fully ADA compatible with pedestrain walkways.
Both bridges could be rail and pedestrian only with new tunnels for vehicles.
Budget for these fantasy bridges is no issue and the NIMBYs do not protest your design (since it is a fantasy bridge).
I will be interested in your comments. We'll let subtalkers decide the "winners".
The rules:
1- must be a bridge of any material or design.
2- must tie into existing subway tracks and have no fewer than 4 tracks for bridge 1` and 3 tracks for bridge 2. All existing stations must be utilized as currently used. ie- No subway station at Marcy with elevator to the elevated Marcy Station.-- Marcy and Essex for bridge 2 and DeKalb and Grand St for bridge 1.
3- must be ADA compliant and have pedestrian and bike access. Vehciels optional.
To cross the East River and provide for the navigation, etc clearances underneath (which are the purview of the Army Corps of Engineers), the bridges must most likely be as tall as the Manny B and Willy B are. The Corps will also insist on shipping channel clearances, thus the river spans must be at least as long as today's bridges are. Thus, the choices for bridges are limited to either long truss (similar to the Betsy Ross and Barry Bridges in the Phila area and the Goethals Bridge in the metro area) or suspension. A cable-stayed variation of the suspension bridge always is good for 'oohs and ahhs' and could also be constructed (similar to that crossing the C & D Canal on DE 1 south of Wilmington).
The train performance difficulty remains (trains having to climb out of subway on either end of the new Manny B and on the Manhattan end of the new Willy B), unless the slope can be 'flattened' to some degree. If existing end conditions (DeKalb Junction and Canal St/Grand St stations on the Manny B, Broadway El and Essex St station on the Willy B) remain as are, this can't be accomplished.
The bridges themselves can be designed with any number of tracks to avoid the swaying problem that hurt the Manny B. On the new Manny B, I would provide crossovers among the 4 tracks to permit better operational flexibility and intermingling among all tracks. For some moves, this might require grade crossing or wrong-railing, but it beats trying to build flyovers, etc, unless I can accomplish this on the approaches and possibly separate the tracks vertically to some degree. I might even want to build a structure 2 tracks wide and make it 2-level to get away from swaying, but this isn't entirely necessary.
If I'm going to all this trouble, I might as well put some vehicular lanes on these bridges anyway (maybe this time putting the tracks in the center of the bridges and the roadways to the outer edges?). Since vehicles can negotiate slopes better than trains, and since (conceivably) I have more leeway in building the roadway approaches, maybe the road can be atop the tracks in a 2-level arrangement.
I tend to believe that, in reality, if I have to build vehicular tunnels, someone somewhere will show me that putting the subway in a nearby tube as part of the overall effort would make much more sense than having separate bridges (especially in the case of the Manny B, where the tracks are already in subway on either end). I know this isn't part of your criteria, but I thought I'd toss it in.
Before we brand the engineers of the great New York subway system, let's keep in mind that the system they designed primarily over seven decades ago is still doing a bang-up job for today's transportation needs. It's hardly their fault that people who could probably be better called 'morons' today (if we wanted to name-call) - our esteemed political leaders - have lacked the foresight to provide sufficient funding to preserve and modernize the system. Before we brand those who manage to keep the system viable (i.e. the engineers) despite the lack of resources given to do this job, let's keep in mind who the real 'morons' are. The reason that the Manhattan Bridge and many other parts of our infrastructure are in the shape they're in isn't because of those who designed and built them. It's more related to those who won't provide the funding to keep them useful.
A new bridge is not appropriate for rail transit. Speeds are faster in a tunnel. A bridge has much more impact on the neighborhoods it comes to earth in, and therefore is much harder politically as well.
A new bridge is not appropriate for rail transit. Speeds are faster in a tunnel. A bridge has much more impact on the neighborhoods it comes to earth in, and therefore is much harder politically as well.
I agree and disagree! Bridges such as you are thinking of, no, they are no longer appropriate.
Bridges the way *I* envision them would work quite nicely thank you.
May bridge connects to what I might call the 34th Street Mall.
I envision an elevated, covered mall the length of 34th street.
1) The street level remains unchanged.
2) a Second level carries an LRV line
3) the third level is the Mall Level, and connects to the buildings along the route.
4) the top level is an open air prominade, with open air type coffee shops etc connected to stores on the Mall Level.
The LRVs leap across the East River on a slender rail-only bridge that arches gracefully across the river.
There is also a two line tunnel connecting to the New Jersey side of the Hudson River.
The LRVs run from large park-and-ride facilities in both Queens and New Jersey. The fare to ride the LRV is included in the parking costs.
There is no fare to board or ride the LRVs within Manhattan... in otherwords, there is no overt fare collection on the system.
This is an integrated midtown development project. It also builds on my proposal that no privately owned automobiles should be allowed in the CBD.
Elias
Of course in addition to the deferred maintenence on the Manhattan Bridge, you are right that the basic design is flawed. First of all a suspension bridge does not lend itself well to rail traffic anyway. But if you must put trains on a suspension bridge, it is better when the tracks are in the middle, such as the Willy B. So the combination of tracks on the outside, deferred maintenece, and the simple fact that the Manhattan Bridge is a suspension bridge, really doomed the poor MB to the problems it has had.
So the combination of tracks on the outside, deferred maintenece, and the simple fact that the Manhattan Bridge is a suspension bridge, really doomed the poor MB to the problems it has had.
Oh! And to add one more thing to that. In a ddition to all the stresses on the MB above, another major problem. The north side of the bridge always had more traffic, increasing the stress even more. When the Broadway tracks used the north side, the south side was less used by the Nassau line tracks. After 1967, the north side had more trains than the Broadway tracks did when they were switched to the south side. More stress on the poor bridge!
Rather than insult people, maybe you could have been nice enough to post a link to the post in which you explained this. I have never seen this explanation before and it would have been nice to have a link to the post in which you made this point. I don't post on this board to be called a moron. I'm not a moron! If you're annoyed by what you're reading and you've explained something before - POST A LINK TO IT! Don't insult people!
I guess nobody's safe from insults on this board.
I'm sorry about that, I really wasn't targeting anyone specific here, and especially not you. It's just this theory that trains must balance the bridge is something that has been said many times, and remains untrue.
I apologize if I offended/insulted you. It was not my intention. I will try to exercise more restraint in the future.
I was simply going along with what I heard. I'm no civil engineer, so I defer to those who I think would know more about the bridge. I'm not going to suggest any ideas for service plans, although I will say this: Given the popularity of the Broadway line on weekends, I believe it should have at least three routes running on it during the weekends, just as it does now.
Broadway is pretty popular, but just how popular is it? I don't think that south of Canal it is in any sort of heavy use. At 34th, it is sharing a stop with 6th av, and at 42nd, it is sharing stops with a LOT of lines.
I seriously believe that both 6th av and Broadway should only have 2 services (Right now, it's 3 to 1). 6th av: D/F, Broadway N/R. D/N via bridge. West End terminating at 36th.
Yes, Broadway below Canal is not hugely popular. It is, however, quite popular between Canal and 34th (and above 34th). The Union Square, NYU and Soho areas generate a lot of ridership. From what I have seen, the 6th Avenue line looks like it's rather quiet below 34th on weekends, even before the 7/22/01 bridge flip. I would see weekend N and R trains pull into the stations full at that time. Weekend R and W trains seem to be a little less crowded now than the N and the R were pre-7/22. It may have to do with express tracks being used by the Q, but then again, it may not, I don't know. But I do know that Broadway is a pretty popular line in Midtown and from 14th to Canal.
I was simply going along with what I heard. I'm no civil engineer, so I defer to those who I think would know more about the bridge. I'm not going to suggest any ideas for service plans, although I will say this: Given the popularity of the Broadway line on weekends, I believe it should have at least three routes running on it during the weekends, just as it does now.
Apology accepted. I can understand if you got annoyed seeing a theory about why the Manhattan Bridge must be balanced that doesn't make sense.
Sacrifice one of MY Redbirds...not on your life. Use a Bombardier trainset with a Bombardier crew...BBD makes 'killah trainsets.' It will be amazing if R142s hold together for five years...it is more amazing that there have been no further 'pull aparts.' R142s will eventually cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars in repairs and lost revenue....just like Grumman/Flexible buses. We in TA will have excellent work for many years to come but the incessant whinings of 'We have no money' is BS...they will find the money come December 15th. Frankly, I'm happy with my salary but really could use a few dollars more...small regular wage increases without the loss of medical benefits would be just fine.
As for bridge engineering in the last century, bridges are designed to flex with thermal changes and load distribution. Fail to remove accumulated water/corrosives and lubricate moving structure'...materiels will buckle and crack. Save a nickel in maintainance...spend a dollar for restoration.
1. I think that the R-142's will hold together for an average of 4.7 years, not 5.
2. Since the 'birds are already being sacrificed to Poisidon, why not give one to the manhattan bridge as well?
3. I know all that stuff about bridge engineering. Bridges are Supposed to flex. So are skyscrapers (Unless you're talking about the Empire State Building, which was built a few times stronger than needed). Most things that we consider stationary are actually moving machines themselves.
Even the Empire State Building is designed to flex an inch or two in a gale.
Gale being the key word.
I know that this is a huge pipe dream (and crazy in this environment), but I have a simple(!) solution to the Manhattan Bridge problem. Just build a 4 track tunnel connecting DeKalb Ave and the Canal St/Grand St stations. Once the tunnel is built, then simply tear down the old Manhattan Bridge, and build a new one. But this would be far too simple and logical in a political/economical environment like NYC. Or is it?
Do you have a spare $10 billion to fund it?
Do you have a plan for the drivers while the bridge is torn down?
Other than those issues, it is the best approach.
Do you have a plan for the drivers while the bridge is torn down?
That's not really an issue. Usually what they when building a new bridge is to build it right next to the old one, so basically no one would be inconvenienced. The old bridge would stay in service right until the point when the new bridge is done.
Do you have a plan for the drivers while the bridge is torn down?
Actually, yes. I plan to EXCLUDE drivers from the CBD completely.
Elias
You realy need to get rid of NETSCAPE 7 on your machine. It messes with your subject line.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why tear down the bridge? I say leave it as is!
One option would be to convert the existing rail lines on the bridge into car lanes to allow for additional throughput.
The other would be to leave at least one set of the tracks intact but unused. If some calamity should befall the new tunnel, there will be backup tracks to use! For example, the connection of the Nassau St. Tracks to the Montague tunnel comes in handy - the for example, and remember the J on 4th Ave after 9/11 when the N/R were temporarily put out of commission?
You are out of your f*ckin mind if you want to tear down the Manny B. Put the subway traffic in a tunnel, but preserve the bridge as-is. I guarantee you that a replacement would be 1,000 x more ugly than the Manny B...which is a nice looking bridge. It's been there since 1909, keep up the maintenance and preserve it.
I don't know if I'd agree about the ugly part - if Manny were replaced it'd probably be replaced by a cable-stayed bridge, which are often quite attractive and in any case would make an interesting contrast to its neighbor just to the south!
But I agree absolutely - keep the bridge and the road and foot traffic on it. Rail traffic is better suited to a tunnel in general.
Or how about making the Manhattan Bridge all Subway? Knock out all of the roads. I mean, we could less cars in Manhattan. ;-)
Honestly, I'm for that. You could put six tracks on the Manny B. that way, with room for a layup track or one line just for maintenance vehicles.
You could put six tracks on the Manny B. that way, with room for a layup track or one line just for maintenance vehicles.
Gee, a storage yard in the middle of the East River. :-)
It would make sense to you, no dreaded NIMBY's who keep requiring justification for such proposals. :-)
Gee, a storage yard in the middle of the East River. :-)
This is one of those things that will become possible once the East River is torn down or grade separated. :(:))
Six? I'd think twelve! You have the four existing ones, the road decks above the existing tracks could be converted to four new tracks, and three could be constructed down the center roadway. And you could do a little light rail or monorail thing down the pedestrian walkway on one side...
Of course all the problems the bridge has now would pale in comparison to what'd happen when all these new tracks are added...
What you would have is a very juicy target for the next Osama bin Lousy, whenever he decides to make his appearance. By the way, those fools are not done yet - they are so stupid, that they do ¦yÉknow when to quit. Keep on the alert.
The fact that something is a juicy target for Osama Bin Laden only makes the case stronger that we should build it.
It's a lot better to have them see that we build higher in spite of them, then to see that their work is paying off.
What you would have is a very juicy target for the next Osama bin Lousy, whenever he decides to make his appearance. By the way, those fools are not done yet - they are so stupid, that they do not know when to quit. Keep on the alert.
No way!!!!!!!! That bridge is pretty attractive plus it'll cost 100's of millions, possibly a billion dollars to do that. All they have to do is maintain the current structure more often and the results will be good.
Exprecially after all the reconstruction money they have spent on it in the last decade or two.
I meant "especially".
>>I know that this is a huge pipe dream (and crazy in this environment), but I have a simple(!) solution to the Manhattan Bridge problem. Just build a 4 track tunnel connecting DeKalb Ave and the Canal St/Grand St stations. Once the tunnel is built, then simply tear down the old Manhattan Bridge, and build a new one. But this would be far too simple and logical in a political/economical environment like NYC. Or is it?<<
I dislike the part about tearing down the Bridge. Just reconstruct it and add the tunnel. The MTA can use the submerse tube method for the tunnel and not worry about future problems with the Bridge.
BTW its not really simple political or enviromental wise. In fact there can be alot of uproar from the people who lives in the shadow of this bridge. Plus where are you going to get the money to build it. The city is a lick away from bankruptcy and the MTA has to combine everything just to save a few hundred million a year. And Fema is only here to rebuild Ground Zero.
You can't do that, WPR wants 24/7 Manhattan access, the only way that plan would work would be the swap the 2/5 at night so the 5 can still be the Dyre shuttle and the 2 will return to 241 Street from 1-5 am.
Oh and the thru expresses to Gun Hill (and maybe 241) would have to return as well, while the (5) and (3) would be the WPR locals during rush hours. Dyre having access to Flatbush all times, while WPR gets stuck with Bowling Green? bad idea
What about when there is weekend track work and only one train can run, which will be cut to shuttle service (2) or (5)?
WPR will also lose service because they will no longer have two different lines running on it, an option of 2 or 5
You can't do that, WPR wants 24/7 Manhattan access, the only way that plan would work would be the swap the 2/5 at night so the 5 can still be the Dyre shuttle and the 2 will return to 241 Street from 1-5 am.
Um, no. People would adjust to the new pattern. Careful scheduling would minimize waits at E180th St.
Oh and the thru expresses to Gun Hill (and maybe 241) would have to return as well, while the (5) and (3) would be the WPR locals during rush hours.
No again. The Dyre Ave. line's #2 would be the local, and all the WPR's #5's would run express. The Dyre Ave line has less patronage and has fewer stops north of E180th. It takes exactly the same amount of time for a train to get from Dyre to 3rd Ave going local as it does a train from 242nd St. to 3rd Ave via the thru express. Dyre Ave. riders will bitch and moan, but even more WPR line riders will cheer.
And like the complainers who whined about the G being cut to Court Sq and the V replacing the F along 53rd. St, they'll shut up after a while.
Dyre having access to Flatbush all times, while WPR gets stuck with Bowling Green? bad idea
Why? Most people from the Bronx want Manhattan locations And my service plan would provice service to Flatbush all day long during the week. The #5 would terminate at Bowling Green only on the weekends.
How far express would the #5 go? Considering that you can create a thru express to Gun Hill Road, and a super express to 241 Street Two different express 5 trains, one (super express) would run for about 1 hour during the rush, while the other express would run during middays and early evenings as well.
Also, half the #5 trains can't terminate at Flatbush because there is not enough room, so the #5 will also have to terminate at Utica/New Lots during rush hours.
Wouldn't WPR lose service since 2 lines wouldn't be running on the line? I would still run some diamond local #2 trains to 238 Street during rush hours at least (or you will have to decrease service on the #2 line, which is like the 7th Avenue line's version of the #4 line)
How far express would the #5 go? Considering that you can create a thru express to Gun Hill Road, and a super express to 241 Street Two different express 5 trains, one (super express) would run for about 1 hour during the rush, while the other express would run during middays and early evenings as well.
You're complicating things. All #2's would run to Dyre and run local south of E180th St. All #5's would run to E241 St. and run express south of E180th, and local north.
Also, half the #5 trains can't terminate at Flatbush because there is not enough room, so the #5 will also have to terminate at Utica/New Lots during rush hours.
Nope, the #5 line wouldn't change the number of trains it runs during rush hours, only it's northern terminal. Flatbush Ave already handles 20+ TPH with both the 2 & 5 running there during rush hours. It can certainly handle the combined 12 TPH the 2/5 lines would run during the midday hours.
Wouldn't WPR lose service since 2 lines wouldn't be running on the line? I would still run some diamond local #2 trains to 238 Street during rush hours at least (or you will have to decrease service on the #2 line, which is like the 7th Avenue line's version of the #4 line)
No. No change in the number of trains would be necessary. The whole point of my plan is to simplify service. E180th St can be used as the transfer point between services. No "special" service. Every 2 to Dyre. Every 5 to 241st St.
I don't think Flatbush ever has more than 15 tph or so. Most if not all 5 trains from 238th run to Utica, not Flatbush.
2 #5 trains from Flatbush go to E 238 Street, the 4:10 Flatbush, and the 5:52 Flatbush.
This is true, and during rush hours, this would remain the same. But Flatbush can handle the 12 TPH that the combined 2/5 lines run during the day. All I propose is that the #5 run to Flatbush all day long, something which is certainly feasible.
I think the only reason the 5 terminates at Bowling Green off-peak is that three Brooklyn IRT services suffice then -- i.e., it's not a capacity issue.
I can attest to the need for more midday service on the Nostrand Ave. IRT.
I rarely see off-peak Brooklyn trains with more than a few standees, let alone trains that could reasonably be called crowded, with the exceptions of the Q and L. And peak trains are only crowded in the peak direction. Southbound 2 trains, at least, are packed in the morning rush as far as Wall Street but lose nearly all their passengers there.
Cough it up to different experiences.
Cough it up to different experiences.
Mine are different. #2 trains leaving Flatbush Ave at noon are already filled. This line absorbs a lot of bus transfers from lines feeding the Flatlands and East Flatbush. They empty out to a great extent at Franklin and Nevins to x-fer to Lexington Ave trains. All day #5 service would be welcome. Trust me.
In your experience, are 4 trains crowded in Brooklyn? If not, maybe it would make sense to terminate the 4 at Bowling Green and send the 5 through to Flatbush.
What would go to Utica Avenue then? all those people would have lost direct Lexington Avenue and express service, and they would have to wait forever on the 3.
Remember, I'm talking midday and weekend service. It's a whole one station that loses direct Lex service (as opposed to the entire Nostrand branch), and the 3 runs about as frequently off-peak as any of the other IRT Brooklyn lines.
The trains don't fill up. Running more than three service is wasteful, since other lines elsewhere in the system do get crowded. Both West Side expresses have to run to Brooklyn; that leaves the option of terminating one of the East Side expresses at Bowling Green. Which one? Chris suggests that the 5 run to Brooklyn to serve the Nostrand branch; that leaves the 4 to terminate at Bowling Green.
How about terminating the 5 at Atlantic Avenue like the 1970s?
Then the 4 would have to run local in Brooklyn. The local tracks might get a bit too crowded for comfort in the midday shoulders, and 4 trains waiting to go into the relay at Utica would delay 3 trains.
Plus, it doesn't solve the problem Chris proposed: crowding on the 2 at Flatbush.
I heard that Utica Avenue makes up almost half the ridership on the Utica/New Lots branch, and that stop aparently needs the 4 (as well as the 3)
Lexington Ave service is always heavily patronized in Brooklyn. The problem with the Nostrand Ave line is the crowds who get on at Flatbush. The trains reach capacity before getting to Church Ave.
One possible way to evenly spread out service is to run 3 different Lexington Avenue expresses during the day, each running at a 6 TPH headway (#5 to Flatbush, circle #4 to Utica, diamond #4 to Bowling Green only).
No need to differentiate with a diamond (which is supposed to be rush hour special anyway). Just terminate some #4's at bowling green. The problem that I see with this is that you still have way too many #4's servicing manhattan. 18tph during midday? that's insane!
No need to differentiate with a diamond (which is supposed to be rush hour special anyway). Just terminate some #4's at bowling green.
Better to give some visual way to tell the short #4 apart. It's less confusing than giving it a completely different number.
The problem that I see with this is that you still have way too many #4's servicing manhattan. 18tph during midday? that's insane!
There are currently 16 TPH on the midday Lexington express schedule (10 #4, 6 #5). On any other line you might be right that 18 TPH is excessive. But not this one.
Please tell me when the #4 line is running 18TPH during midday. For that matter, please tell me when the #4 is running 18 TPH during at any point in the day.
I agree with your idea about terminating some #4 trains at Bowling Green. Problem is this; People think that all trains go to Brooklyn, which will result in some people remaining on the train, and others rushing aboard at BG. These passengers will either pull the cord in the South Ferry Loop, or throw a tantrum when they come around on the n/b platform. Either way, they'll tie up s/b service during a vital daypart.
I've taken a few "light" #5 trains from E.180 to Bowling Green during the beginning of rush hour. Once at BG, we go in service for n/b service. I'd like to go in service the whole way, but it'll end up tying the road up at Bowling Green.
Are you sure you haven't slipped into rush hour mode? I don't think I've ever seen a midday IRT train in Brooklyn that could possibly be considered filled to capacity, and I rarely look that far south.
Take a ride on the #2 from Flatbush at 12:30 PM on any given weekday. It's as jam packed as the 4 or 5 running on Lexington Ave at the same time. The 3 and 4 are not nearly as heavily patronized, and having 10 #4's per hour leaving Utica at this time when crowding along Nostrand Ave. means no seats unless you get on at Flatbush is obscene.
The 2 use to run to Dyre years ago.whats stopping them from doing that now? any taker?
Here are my proposals for the IRT:
1/9: I would eliminate the skip-stop sevice because it is silly and it doesn't save much time.
(1) -->Service would stay the same
(9) -->Express stops between 96 St and 157 St (maknig stops at 168,181,191 & Dyckman Sts)then express again to 242 St in the peak direction. I'd probably restore it to a all day train service.
2:Service would stay the same.
3:Service would stay the same.
4:Implement a Jerome Av peak express service similar to the D,5,6 & 7 lines from 125 St (since it skips 138 St in the peak direction) to Burnside Av then all stops to Woodlawn. As other Subtalkers have said, a new line may have to be created to do this.
5:Extend the Bronx thru express service to Gun Hill Rd or IF NECESSARY 238 St or a possible return to 241 St.
6:Extend some rush hour trains & late night trains to South Ferry, offering 2 Manhattan services instead of 1 but South Ferry would have to go through a major rebuild/upgrade.
7:Service would stay the same.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Call the new Woodlawn service the 8. It's kind of ridiculous how the numbers go 6, 7, 9. There should be an 8. That would make Woodlawn the 4/8 line.
Or one half :)
Here are my suggestions. This assumes Manhattan Bridge services restored in 2004.
A - 207 St to Rockaways. Split service between Far Rock. and Rock Park, Express stops between 168 St and Euclid. 6AM to Midnight. Overnights, all stops, Round-Robin service(to Rockaway Park, then to Far Rockaway, then Back to Manhattan).
C - 168 St to Lefferts Blvd. 6AM to Midnight. Overnights - shuttle from Euclid to Lefferts.
E - No change
B - Bedford Park (rush hours), 145 St (all other times except Overnights), Pacific St (Overnights) to Coney Island. Express Stops 59 St Manhattan to 36 St Brklyn. Overnights- all stops.
D - no change
F - no change in Terminals, but changes made in service patterns. Queens- Express stops 179 St to 21 St Queensbridge. Brooklyn- Express stops peak direction Kings Hwy to Jay st. (to Manh. 6am to noon, to Kings Hwy 1pm to 8pm. weekdays.) Local service Church Ave to Coney Is. all other times. Trains run express from Jay st to Church Ave all times except overnights.
V - 179 St to Kings Hwy. Weekdays 6AM to 8PM.
G - Court Sq to Church Ave. After 8 Pm weekdays and all day weekends trains to 179 st.
J - Jamaica to Bay Parkway Weekdays. Weekends to Broad St.
M - Metropolitan Ave to Broad st All times.
Z - Jamaica to Bay Parkway Rush Hours. To Bay Pkwy AM Rush, to Jamaica PM rush. All stops Chambers St to Bay Pkwy. Express Stops, Chambers St to Crescent St ( creative scheduling required.)
Q - Astoria to Brighton Beach via Bway Exp- Brighton Line. Express stops from 57 st to Brighton Beach. 6AM to Midnight weekdays. Summer Weekends- Coney Island Express via Brighton 8AM to 10 pm. No weekend service fall and winter weekends.
N - no change, make trains Bway exp- route trains via Manhattan Bridge between Canal St and DeKalb ave.
R - no change
W - 63 st Lexington to Coney Is. via Montague st tunnel, Sea Beach Line Weekdays 6am to 8PM
I`ll do the IRT lines in another Post.
Your proposals on the the letter lines are good but on the Nassau line (J,M,Z) I have a few comments and suggestions.
I am going to add some things to the Nassau line(J,M,Z) that I left out in my previous post. There are so many improvements you could make to get the Jamaica/Nassau line out of the gloom and doom and make it a faster/attractive line besides the work they did in improving stations between Hewes St and Chauncey St (B'way Junction needs to be brought back to life ;-).
J/Z:I would leave the same terminals but the way it is now BUT here's a few proposals I would make:
(J):a. I would move trains from the express track in Brooklyn(Myrtle-Marcy Av) to the local track to give passengers 2 local services in the portion mentioned above so there would be reduced waiting time.
b. I would let trains go to Broad St all times except late nights, where it could terminate at Chambers
Weekdays: All stops from Broad St to B'way Junction then skip stop service to Jamaica Center
Weekends: All stops from Broad St to Jamaica Center
Late nights: All stops from Chambers St to Jamaica Center
(Z):a. I would make this line a real Nassau St express by having trains skip the Bowery & MAYBE Chambers St since you can catch the 4,5 at Fulton St.(It can't skip Broad because its the terminal & the other stations{Fulton St[A,C,2,3,4,5],Canal St[N,Q,R,W,6] & Essex St[F]} because of important transfer points).
b. By moving J's to the local track, Z's could run express from Marcy Av to B'way Junction and skip stop service would start at B'way rather than Myrtle Av. Would run weekdays rush hours or all day in the peak direction
Weekdays: Express stops from Broad St to Jamaica Center, skip stop from B'way Junction to Jamaica Center
M: Here's my proposal:
(M): Service would stay the same but they should extend that silly shuttle on weekday evenings, weekends and late nights to Manhattan or Hewes St instead of Myrtle Av if:
a.It won't interfere with J service(which it shouldn't) unless there's a GO
b.If more sevice is needed in Manhattan(which I think it does)
Increase service, especially on weekdays. Since R143's are planned to run on the M, maybe that could happen by running R40M's/R42's and R143's as its fleet.
Weekdays(rush): All stops from Metro Av to Bay Pkwy, same as today
" "(midday): All stops from Metro Av to 9 Av, same as today
" "(evenings/nights): All stops from Metro Av to Broad St(evenings to 12AM) Myrtle Av(12AM-6AM) AFTER ALL trains have left Bay Parkway
Weekends: All stops from Broad St(if needed) or Hewes St to Metro Av except late nights where it would be a shuttle from Myrtle Av to Metro Av.
What do you think? I would like your opinions on this.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Here's part 2, The IRT and the L train:
L - Create an "X" train and introduce skip-stop between B'way Jct and 1st Ave.
1 - no change
9 - Peak direction express 242st to 96st local below 96 st
2 - no change
3 - Run trains to New Lots 24/7.
4 - Introduce Peak direction express on Jerome Ave designated as the 8
run trains to Utica ave 24/7. Rush hour trains from New Lots.
5 - Dyre av to Flatbush weekdays 6am to 8 pm. All other times to South Ferry. Introduce "10" train- 238 st to Flatbush Ave SB in morning, NB in evening. Express stops in Bronx and Manhattan.
5 trains run express in Bronx bet 149 St and 180 st SB 6am to noon, NB 1pm to 8pm, weekdays.
6 - no change
7 - no change.
That's it. Anyone who want to differ?
Here's what I would do. (I have 2 previous posts 1 for the IRT & 1 for the BMT/IND. I'm comparing your suggestions to my suggestions.)
L: Its a good idea but I would leave service the way it is(unless the need comes)
1: Service would stay the same
2: Service would stay the same
3: In a previous post I said I would leave 3 service unchanged. I would make it a shuttle from 96 St to 148 St in the late nights, eliminating that shuttle bus and giving late night riders 10 min headways via Lenox Av
4: Create a new peak direction sevice between 125 St and Burnside Av or Kingsbridge Rd/Bedford Park Blvd(I forgot which one has switches to/from the express track)if the 4 is express
As yourself & others have said, a new 8 train would be created. Would run from 149 St/Grand Concourse to Woodlawn if the 8 is the Jerome express(see 4 above) would run in that pattern BUT it starts from 149 St/Grand Conc.
5: You say you would bring service to South Ferry other times (Evenings, weekends, nights) Its sounds good but South Ferry would have to go through a major rebuild/upgrade for that plan to be possible. I would leave its current terminal at Bowling Green off hours. Extend Bronx thru service to Gun Hill Rd or 238 St if necessary. A return to 241 St would be nice
6: Extend some 6's rush hours & all late night 6's to South Ferry, providing 2 Manhattan services instead of 1 but like the plan for 5's South Ferry would have to go through a major rebuild/upgrade for this plan to be possible
7: Service would be the same
9: Eliminate that silly skip-stop service, which saves LIKE 4-5 minutes and run 9's express in the peak direction from 96 St to 157 St, stopping at 168,181,191 and Dyckman Sts then express to 242 St. Would be restored to a all day service weekdays 6AM-9PM {6AM-12PM SB, 12:30PM-9PM NB}.
What do you think?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Running the F express from Jay to Church all times except nights, leaves those local stops with only the G on weekends. Could run into problems there.
Also, Broadway needs to have more than the N and the R on weekends. It is a heavily used line on weekends and should have at least three services.
restore the front RAILFAN WINDOW....relax all restrictions on those
of us who shoot videos in the subway system !!
give out permits like they used to do before 9-11 ...!!
What country and city currently holds title to the longest single-ride trolley route in the world?
Joe: Prior to its being bustituted SEPTA's #23 Germantown Avenue held the record at 12.8 miles with #50 Rising Sun Avenue coming in second at 10.8 miles. The longest SEPTA trolley line today is #101 Media at 8.6 miles.
The 1992 Light Rail Annual reported that the San Diego Trolley was 34.5 miles long.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I appreciate your answer and you were correct with the information given, but my question asked and pertained to the current - today's - record holder. What country and city currently has the longest one-way trolley trolley route? The person who knows the answer can probably also post how long, in hours and minutes, that one way trip takes.
San Diego Trolley had (at that time) a total of 34.5 route miles. That was two routes...from SD to the border about 20 miles, and the other out to El cajon at 14 miles. (SDT has had extensions since then, so their mileage may vary...)
I assume that trackless trolleys (electric trolley buses) are not included in this discussion?
23 had to be longer than that...where was the southern terminus? That is more like 20-25 miles, if im not mistaken.
I scaled off a map it seems to be 12-13 miles long, maybe 14. Definitely not 20 or 25.
Chuck Greene
Chris: Rt 23 Germantown Avenue ran from Chestnut Hill Loop in Germantown to 10 & Bigler Streets in lower Philly.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And you'll be able to ride the 23 with a PCC on Sunday, October 27
as far south as Snyder Avenue on the Rockhill Trolley Museum Excursion.
See upcoming events for details.
;| ) Sparky
What do you consider a trolley? City line? Interurban?
Either or a combination. Also, as a purely personal opinion, the term "light rail" is the quite ridiculous, and not understood by the majority of the general public. I believe that the term "trolley" should have been retained, or at the very least "interurban" could have been used, as most new generation lines generally operate between large cities and other population centers, such as Salt Lake City and Sandy, Portland and Gresham, or Los Angeles and Long Beach. Automobiles are still called automobiles, buses remain just that and airplanes retained that nomenclature. All are modernized - except the name. And everyone knows what they are..... But light rail? How can you in any way, shape or form compare the JFK Airtrain, for example, to the Hudson-Bergen route, even though both are called "light rail." It's just, I believe, a marketing name with no substance, dreamed up by someone in an attempt to justify his salary.
To his everlasting credit, the father of the San Diego Trolley, State Senator James Mills, insisted on the appellation "trolley" rather than "light rail" for the new San Diego rail system. The term stuck and certainly hasn't hindered the success of San Diego Trolley.
It's gone now, of course, but in its day, I believe Chicago's 36 Broadway-State line was longer than Philadelphia's 23 Germantown.
"Light Rail" is a useful industy term to include various modes of pulbic transportation. Most of the older terms are too limiting:
Interurban: many lines do not run between cities or from cities to other population centers (eg: SF Muni).
Trolley: this would exclude those line that operate by 3rd rail, understreet cable, or understreet power (if any still exist).
Streetcars: this is probably the best term, although it seems very odd applying it to something like the Green Line in LA, which runs in the middle of a freeway, or the new JFK AirTrain.
So, the industry term tends to be used a lot these days because it is more inclusive as well as seeming modern. At least, "heavy rail" has been limited to the industry.
Under what possible criterion can the JFK AirTrain be considered "light rail". From what I've observed it's built to the standards of conventional rapid transit.
Under what possible criterion can the JFK AirTrain be considered "light rail". From what I've observed it's built to the standards of conventional rapid transit.
The car's weight per linear foot is under 1,000 lbs making it lighter than a PCC of comparable length.
That's as good a definition as any.
only until the notoriously heavy Bredas ib SF are compared to the CTA 6000's
True, true..
"I believe that the term 'trolley' should have been retained,"
In the same way that the public retains steam-train terms and references ("choo-choo", news stories where trains "chuff" and "chug") for modern diesel and electric trains?? No thanks. IMHO, that contributes to the, alas, not-uncommon perception that rail, in some or all of its forms, is old-fashioned and irrelevant to the modern world.
Old terms create old images in the public's mind -- which is fine if that's the image you WANT for a particular line or system -- while newer terms create newer, more modern, more vital images. "Trolley" creates the image in many minds of something that looks like a San Francisco open-air cable car (yes, **I** know that's not a trolley) or one of the phoney gas-powered "trolleys" (why do you think the phoneys look like that in the first place?). Therefore, IMHO, a heritage line like Memphis' or Seattle's that uses old or replica-old trolleys *should* be called a trolley, while a line that uses modern equipment, extends beyond tourist areas into the day-to-day neighborhoods, and is predominantly used for commuting and not sightseeing should be called light rail.
Using this so-called logic, with which I do not agree, could you be kind enough to establish terms for current-day autombiles, buses, airplanes and ships (or boats)? The first three have been around almost a century using the same terminology, while "ships" or "boats" goes back much further than the century mark. Another term I'd suggest for a trolley would be "modern trolley" or "contemporary trolley."
By the way, no one has come up yet with the longest current day (modern) trolley line in the world, although one gentleman has come close. A little clue: the Federal Railway Administration, whose stagnant policies, in my opinion, come from an early time in another century, appears to believe to that a system of this type could ever exist in this country, even though it has a perfect safety record about 15 years old in the transit and railway-progressive country (soon to be countries) where it currently operates.
>>> could you be kind enough to establish terms for current-day autombiles, buses, airplanes and ships <<<
There is no real reason to establish new names for those three items because they are more generic than "trolley." Trolley is more like "horseless carriage", "motor stage", "flying machine", and "packet". "Trolley" by itself has traditionally referred to single railed vehicles taking power from an overhead wire with a wheeled device. More general terms are "street car" and "tram."
The light rail vehicles in San Diego are much too large to be considered trolleys, in the conventional sense. I think they are called trolleys just because the alliteration of "Tijuana Trolley" was just to good to pass up.
Tom
Tom: The term that I get a kick out of is people-mover. That could be anything from a dirigible to a rowboat.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> The term that I get a kick out of is people-mover <<<
To me people mover conjures an image of a continuously moving operation, either a moving walkway, or continuously moving seats with a way to board and alight, usually to a moving walkway.
Tom
Joe - you seem to be hinting that you already know the answer to your question, which someone else also suggested you did. We've already had a suggestion of a 92 km (about 55 miles) line in Germany - can you better that?
Fytton.
Yes, I do know the answer and it'll be posted in time. I've visited this country/city quite often recently. To photograph this fantastic system would take a minumum of 2-3 weeks to do it properly.
So... Where is it?
Sofia? Brussels? Zagreb? or in the former USSR?
This thread reminded me of the private line (Badner Bahn) in Vienna, Austria.
But found out it was not that long.
Does anyone know if the Badner Bahn had dining cars? I couldn't find much info on the net. But I remember an article about it. Tramways (Trolleys) with dining facilities... One was in Austria or former West Germany and the other was the Electroliner of the North Shore.
The former should have kept this service well into the 70s.
If you'll allow interurbans, I'd vote for the South Shore Line (NICTD, Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District). Although the rolling stock is far from lightweight, it always has been an interurban and still runs 91 miles from Randolph St. Station in Chicago to the South Bend terminal.
-- Ed Sachs
Thank you Ed, but I'd really believe this is more of a heavy commuter rail operation rather than a true interurban. While it certainly does connect population centers, so do other systems such as the LIRR, Metro North and SEPTA, all of which use similar equipment but are not considered interurbans.
I presume Joe Saitta already knows the answer. I'll offer Karlsruhe to Heilbronn, about 92 km. I think that's longer than the Liberty Bell Limited, and longer than Hillsboro-Gresham. Wantagh Joe
The Melbourne number 86 Colonial Stadium - Bundoora route must be among the longest, if we are talking about a pure, classic street railway, without any "light rail" pretentions. I don't have the precise length, but I'd estimate 40 km. Travel time is 64 minutes.
Has this thread died (October 16)? I would still like to read Joe Saitta's answer to the question he posed. Joe McMahon
On October 4 Joe Saitta said he knew the answer and it would be posted "in time".
Maybe it is time now? Stop the suspense before we all lose interest!
What are or will be the requirements for next year's exam as far as work experience is concerned?
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/shuttle/ts-s04.jpg
Although this says that it was taken on the shuttle platform, it was not, it is from the broadway irt platform(1239)
So where was this pic taken?
Here too...
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40m-4301a.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40m-4501a.jpg
They're the same car. They are both 4501. The other side of 4501...
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40m-4501b.jpg
There is one thing that foamers and busheads agree on -- we hate those buses disguised as fake trolleys. And we've stuck with a "tourist trolley" running right here in Prospect Park.
So for a couple of years, I've been thinking about a cost effective replacement. It thought about a trolley, but that would require lots of expensive and dangerous electric infrastructure, and if we are going to get one, it will probably be on Bob D.'s route. I thought about installing remote control gates at park entrances and rerouting real buses through the park, even when it is closed to cars.
Now that I know the proper word for it, I've got a new idea -- a Prospect Park Horsecar. The tracks would be easy to install -- level with the road to avoid a problem for auto traffic, and no electric power required. Like the fake trolley, it would run when the park is closed to cars, evenings and weekends. And it would have a historic angle.
I'd put the stable/barn on Breeze Hill, a seldom-visited area in the middle of the park that was once carriage parking for those attending concerts in the Concert Grove (where the skating rink is now). Perhaps the stable could be leased to a professional stable operator for a nominal sum, in exchange for the care and feeding for the horsecar's horses.
Crossing the road, the tracks would exit the park in the Willink Entrance near the intersection of Flatbush, Ocean, and Empire -- across Flatbush from a back entrance to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden. The Prospect Park stop on the Brighton is right there. The tracks would run up the east side of Flatbush Ave along the park in the (little-used) sidewalk right of way, with stops at the Lefferts Homestead, the Prospect Park Zoo, and the Brooklyn Public Library (also a short walk to the Brooklyn Museum) at Grand Army Plaza. The grade of Flatbush is more steady and less steep than that on the East Drive, which features a steep rise through the Battle Pass. If double teaming up the hill is required, the additional horses could be led back to the stable within the park.
Re-entering the park at the Main Entrance off Grand Army Plaza (which also features a big farmers' market on Saturday), the line would run on the inner lane of the West Drive with stops at each entrance, the Picnic House, the Bandshell, each permimter playground, and near the Prospect Park stop on the F-train. Tracks on the inner lane, though level with the pavement, would encourage cars to use the outer lane -- away from the lane for joggers and bicycles -- when traffic volume permits.
The tracks would run down the West Lake drive (a 60 foot drop over 1,200 feet or so -- brakes required), and around the South Lake Drive, with stops at the Parade Grounds and the Ice Skating Rink, before returning to the Barn and Stable via a hand-throw switch.
The Horsecar could be a visual reproduction inside and out, but would use modern materials and equipment -- like a stainless steel undercarriage and pneumatic fail-safe emergency brakes powered by charged canisters -- for weight, safety, and durability. The fare would be the same as the subway fare, but with no free transfer. If tourists will pay what they do for those carriage rides in Manhattan, many people will surely pay that much to move around the park. There could be frequent user discounts -- for ice skaters, for example.
And leading the inaugral run? Why the Clydesdales of course! Bottoms up to yet another dream.
But then you're going to have all the crybabies bitching and moaning about the horseshit from the live horses pulling the trolley. They go whenever and wherever they want to....
"Fresh Country Scent" made daily ... :)
Sorry if I'm back too many years, bur do they still have a riding stable in Prospect Park?
When I lived near the Parade Grounds until 1965 you regularly walked around (or in) horse poop when you entered the park from Parkside Avenue. Ditto on the bridle path on Ocean Parkway.
I never heard anyone complain then, but maybe we're all more "refined" now.
The bridle path on Ocean Parkway has been gone for years.
There were once many stables off Caton Avenue, as you know and I've been told. There is now one, in poor repair, being leased by one operator. The operator keeps afloat by using a non-profit to obtain volunteers, who do most of the work in exchange for the use of the horse. The building was almost sold off for development some years ago, eliminating horseback riding in the park once and for all.
My daughters decided that they want to take horseback riding lessons, and they've been doing it since July. It's expensive, the lesson doesn't happen half the time because the volunteer teen doesn't show, and they aren't any good -- they just get led around in the ring in the building. But they love it and it's very important with them to be with the animals, so I put up with it.
Standing around smelling the manure for a half hour at a time, I came up with the horsecar idea. The guy could really use a new stable, inside the park and safe from redevelopment, in any event. And horsecar rides, sleigh rides, etc could probably cover costs at this point once the capital cost was absorbed.
Of course, you'd have to drive, but the family-owned stable near Belmont Lake State Park charges $30 for a 25-minute lesson, one-on-one. They have indoors and out, and when the kids are skilled enough they can ride in the adjacent park.
They move at their own pace. My older daughter (10 when she started) was allowed to ride without a walker the third lesson. Some kids "get it" fast, most after a while, and a very few never do.
You can buy ten lessons at a 10% discount and don't have to schedule the same time and instructor every week. I usually tip the instructor $5.00 in addition.
Also, they start with a small "easy" horse (usually Yoda), then when they're comfortable they change horses often. After all, a good equestienne should be able to handle any beast. Good training for handling boyfriends. :)
How old are your girls? If they like riding, they'd probably love this place.
(How old are your girls? If they like riding, they'd probably love this place. )
They are 8 and 10. The charge at Kensington Stables is $25 for 30 minutes. That's an hour to me. Not including the 15 minutes there and the 15 minutes back. It might be worth a drive if it was all they did, but there is soccer (one game each, plus I "volunteer" to ref two), Girl Scouts, Irish Dancing (the wife is half Irish), and piano. Looking over the cost and time committment, I asked the older one what she would give up if she had to give up something. She mentioned her younger sister.
Anyway, despite having daughters rather than sons, I have tried to pass on the infrastructure bug. I once asked my older daughter what she would show a friend visiting NYC for the first time. She mentioned a walk we took when the Manhattan Bridge first opened over the bridge (looking at the trains), lunch in Chinatown, back over the Brooklyn Bridge. Subway to from Downtown Brooklyn and home, of course.
I've even thought of a game for them to play when they are old enough to travel the city alone -- "Transit Mania." I'd give them and some of their friends a list of destinations, digital cameras, and unlimited ride cards, and see who could plan and make the trip (with proof) first.
A "give up" for Lent? Why, my "younger sister", of course. I'm laughing so hard, I can't breathe. Your daughter has a future in stand up.
We went horseback riding on our trip to Phoenix in August. It was te first time I'd been on a horse since my ankle-biter days, and let me tell you it was a lot of fun! What I still can't get over is the, er, excretory capacity of a horse - if there are horsecars in Prospect Park, the city won't have to buy nearly as much fertilizer anymore ()-)
In Cape May, the horses wear diapers. No fertilizer in unexpected areas.
--Mark
Many years ago, I had some friends who were into practical joke kinds of hoaxes. They were flying saucer fans and knew quite a few people and organizations with what would now probably now be called "alternative" religious and scientific ideas.
Anyway, one of them took out an ad in a pulp magazine (forget which one) saying that he represented a society called something like "The Society for Animal Decency." It talked about how scandalous it was that our young people should travel through farm country (this was the '50s) and see NEKKID ANIMALS!!! Hew proposed that people prevail upon their politicians to clothe these animals, at least with shorts, if not more.
He hoped to write about the letters he expected to get in a fanzine. Instead, he began getting checks in the mail from supporters. Wisely, he got scared considering what would happen if he cashed any of the checks, returned them and gave up the "quest."
Nowadays, somebody like that would probably parlay it into a major organization, and be featured on CNN and Fox.
Steve Hoskins wrote:
> But then you're going to have all the crybabies bitching and
> moaning about the horseshit from the live horses pulling the
> trolley. They go whenever and wherever they want to....
So, how do they handle the problem with the carriage horses working Central Park? The arrangement I've seen in other cities involves a sort of catcher bag suspended below the critical bit of the horse's anatomy; I imagine the same system could be adapted to horsecars.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Brilliant!
>>> . Perhaps the stable could be leased to a professional stable operator for a nominal sum, in exchange for the care and feeding for the horsecar's horses. <<<
Are there equestrian trails in the park? If not, what horses beside those used for the horse car would be stabled there? No one is going to lease the stables, no matter how nominal the amount without some income coming in. Many years ago in my misspent youth I was a stable hand, and know that there needs to be economies of scale in running the stable. It would be very expensive to run for the horse car horses only.
Tom
Are there equestrian trails in the park?
Are there equestrian trails in the park?
Used to be. Maybe still?
Yes, the bridle paths are still there, and still well used, but not as much as they were, as explained in the prior post.
>>> the bridle paths are still there, <<<
Seeing your post about the riding lessons reminded me how increasing liability has cut down on rental rides. Back in the ‘60s there were several stables near Griffith Park where all you had to do was sign a waiver and tell the stableman that you were an experienced rider to rent a spirited horse to ride on the approximately 50 miles of trails in Griffith Park. I and a few friends would rent early Saturday morning and ride all day. (Renting any time after noon on Saturday until Tuesday morning meant getting an exhausted horse who could go no faster than a walk.). The last time I looked a few years ago, there was only one rental stable and they would only allow riders to go in a group with wranglers fore and aft to look after them.
My father had told me of similar riding in Central Park during the ‘20s.
Tom
(Seeing your post about the riding lessons reminded me how increasing liability has cut down on rental rides.)
There are prominent posts at the last Prospect Park stable saying they have no insurance. If someone wins a lawsuit, they just fold up and that's it.
(Seeing your post about the riding lessons reminded me how increasing liability has cut down on rental rides.)
There are prominent posts at the last Prospect Park stable saying they have no insurance. If someone wins a lawsuit, they just fold up and that's it.
Not so simple. Sure, there is a certain inherent danger in most activirties, including horseback riding. But any activity can become unnecessarily dangerous if the owners are negligent.
IANAL, but in business a long time. Even if they're incorporated, they couldn't count on a statement like that. There is a phrase: "piercing the corporate veil." That means that if a corporation is negligent in an egregious way, they can't just say "OK, you now own an old computer and some sawdust. Bye." They can come after everything the corporate officers own.
I would take a sign telling people they have no insurance as being pretty damning if there were a serious accident and there was provable negligence. It implies that they felt free to be negilgent because they figured you couldn't get anything out of them.
I would imagine that someone injured while riding a horse from the (uninsured) Prospect Park stable would go after the city.
>>> There are prominent posts at the last Prospect Park stable saying they have no insurance. <<<
Many places will not license a business dealing with the public without liability insurance.
Tom
Larry, I like the idea a lot and would love to see it happen.
I think, though, that you need to demonstrate that it could pay for itself out of the farebox, because the horses have to be cared for 24/7/365. Otherwise you need some other assured source of funding.
I wouldn't ordinarily ask this for a park ride, but you might want to consider training volunteer B/Os or T/Os to take these runs in season. You need someone professional to operate an animal railway. It takes some amount of skill to handle the horses. It may not be rocket science, but even something as simple as knowing when to apply and release the brakes to avoid straining the animals is important. I wouldn't want to trust this to a kid that they pull off the carousel in a pinch. It's not the same as walking kids around a circle on a fair pony.
Remember that horses can only be worked so long continuosly, so you need a larger stable than just one horsecar = one horse. They also need grooming, etc. I suppose the zoo's veteranians could take care of their health needs.
I dount we could do it for $1.50 a pop. Maybe a day pass of $5.00, ride all you want?
Anyway, I'd love to see this!
(Anyway, I'd love to see this! )
Perhaps I'll send in the idea with my next contribution to the Prospect Park Alliance, and advocacy group. They are dominated by Olmstead Crazies, who don't want anything that deviates from the original design. But the perimeter roadway was orignally build for horse and buggy, so having horses and carriages there is "authentic." As a railfan, of course, I'd want a horsecar on rails.
Money? Maybe if you bring in Clydesdales, Bud would pay for the car. Someone would have to lay the track. If you built the stables for an operator, and included the care of the horses in the rent, that takes care of that (the stables are the big cost).
I'm afraid that the city is broke, and the capital budget is about to collapse. But maybe if the fantasizing starts now, it might be a real proposal by the time of the next economic boom.
will be there when the PETA hippies find out about your abouse of our four footed friends.
TEATS! Count *ME* in! Let the liber-rails eat each other (extra tip involved HERE) ... Bambi MUST die, but I'll always honk for some hooch. :)
I don't wear FUR, I shoot it. Heh.
Yes you upstaters with your montgomery ward catologs and plain trooper hats.
Heh. They killed off MonkeyWarts, but we GOTS Wal*Mart "style" ... heh.
Oi veih...like I really need this...and I do. I need some naked chicks and naked wimmen Car Inspectors...but not the ones engrossed in trough feedings. As for Bambi, one klick, one kilometer, one kill...KKK. Carlos Hackathorn is my hero and Charelton Heston remains my President. Precision machinery, excellent metrology and devotion to work is what TA NEEDS. Black Bear is another problem...I'm not around with rubber buckshot...put red pepper in the bird feeders. 'Garand in Hand,' CI Peter
In the early 1980's the village of Northport, LI, NY had a horsecar drawn by two horses that went all the way down Main Street and turned around by Woodbine Ave. This was on pre-existing trolley tracks in the street and was designed as a "tourist attraction".
It only lasted about 2-3 summers and failed due to lack of patronage.
It was also very hard on the horses because the up-hill grade is steep and very long.....To get an idea see Kevin Kline furiously bicycling to see Joan Cusack in the movie "In and Out'
There's no car house for that trackage (though you can seethe switches where the carhouse was).
Where did they put the car when it was out of service? That track is all on the street.
BTW, they might try it again. People are more into local amenities than in the '80s.
I'm sorry I missed it. Hope they try again.
pictures from the 1971 R40M GG accident are under 4501 and 4301. They are obviously the same car, so which number was right at the time that the accidentr took place
The R-40M unmber was 4501, while 4301 was (and is) a car number for the Slant R-40 series (the non-AC version at that time).
I thought the 4150-4249 series were the slants with only fans originally.
200 were fan only slants
100 were A/C slants
100 were A?C straits
...and to confuse the issue even more (and I believe Wayne has the numbers here), IIRC, the 100 A/C slants were orignially delievered with the first 100 numbers in the R-40 series, which were then changed to the last 100 numbers in the series (4350-4449), after all 300 cars were on TA property. The R-40Ms, meanwhile, always were 4450-4549, except for a few cars that were being used as test cars and were given non-sequential numbers with letter prefixes.
So does that explain why this new R40M is numbered "CB23"?
That's the reason.
>>So does that explain why this new R40M is numbered "CB23"?<<
I think some cars were numbered in the "CB" series to test Cobra brake shoes. Some R1-9's were tested in a similar fashion with wierd temporary numbers.
Bill "Newkirk"
They also had cars like "AS18" "AS19" etc. These were R40M. AND I also saw some of these numbers applied to R36 Mainline cars, one of which was photographed on the #1. I never saw that numbering applied to any of the R-1/4/6/7/9's.
wayne
>>I never saw that numbering applied to any of the R-1/4/6/7/9's.<<
I saw a photo taken through a window of what must have been a fantrip through East NY yard. The "arnines" had white number boards with black letters/numbers. I may have my car classes mixed up, but they may have been roller bearing test cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
Might have been work motors ... DEFINITELY test trains of some sort. Traditional white on black for revenuers ... maybe a couple of the ones sent over to LIRR for "snow duty" when the "A1A's" (I *swear* they were called that before the "M-1" designation) when they crapped out after sucking snow into the motors ... Arnines did a good bit of duty on the LIRR in winter when I was there ... and they were signed up special for the task. They were also used for hauling NYCTA test trains and shipments.
I know of M501 and M502 at least, equipped with MCB couplers for the task ... there were more of them.
I had thought that the first 100 slants had only fans and the next 200 slants came with A/C.
Nope, only 100 Slants had A/C.
Here are the ORIGINAL numbers in order.
4150-4199 Slant, non a/c, retained their original numbers
4200-4249 Slant, non a/c, retained their original numbers
4250-4299 R40M, renumbered 4450-4499
4300-4349 R40M, renumbered 4500-4549.
Some of these originally had brake test numbers (CBxx, ASxx etc)
4350-4399 Slant, non a/c, renumbered 4250-4299
4400-4449 Slant, non a/c, renumbered 4300-4349
4450-4499 Slant, A/C, renumbered 4350-4399
4500-4549 Slant, A/C, renumbered 4400-4449.
Brake test (((NOTE THESE ARE THE ORIGINAL R40M NUMBERS)))
Don't have numbers for these, maybe Larry-Redbird33 does.
AS10-11
AS16-17
AS18-19
AS20-21
AS22-23
AS24-25
CB22-23 = 4320-4321 ~ (4520-21)
CB20-21 = 4318-4319 ~ (4518-19)
CB32-33 = 4330-4331 ~ (4530-31)
CB34-35 = 4332-4333 ~ (4532-33)
Hope this helps
wayne
I just posted that in a response before I read this.
The accident occurred on May 20, 1970. The car number had already been changed from 4301 to 4501.
wayne
What GG accident? Where can I go to read up on it?
It happened on May 20, 1970 on the switch outside Roosevelt Avenue. Basically what happened was a disabled GG train collided with a moving GG train as the latter switched from the express to the local tracks. The disabled train was being operated from the third car; and it had "keyed by" the red signal, not being aware that the moving train was switching into its path. The first car of the disabled train pushed the fifth car of the moving train off the tracks and the forward end of this car came into contact with the curtain wall. Two thirds of the car's right side was sheared off and two people were killed.
Units involved: R40M #4501, R16 #6304
wayne
I remember reading somewhere that the IND provided a direct link the the 1939 World's Fair. Where did the spur leave the Queens Line, and what was the route of the ROW? Also, since the IND used the letter system, what route provided the service on the World's Fair service?
I also remember vaguely that they wanted to send that spur to LaGuardia. It's a shame they didn't follow up on that.
Chris
A *delightful* page on it right here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/worldsfair/
Very Interesting. And from the look of this photo, it seems that the E provided the service, I wonder from where though, as I don't think the Fulton Subway was fully open yet, the one time home of the E's southern terminal.
Isn't that now the Van Wyck Expressway?
Yep, it sure is.
The World's fair train ran from Chambers St/Hudson Terminal via 8th Avenue to the fair - you had to pay an additional fare at exit. Map of services is here thanks to the "JoeKorner" ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/h-m39wf2.gif
The E ran from Church Ave via the 8th Ave-Houston St line and did not stop at Chambers-Hudson Terminal during the 1939-1940 Worlds Fair. That H&M map showed only those subway lines that had convenient transfers to the H&M lines.
Worlds Fair Station was serviced by E, EE and GG trains.
I sit corrected then ... the information I found was limited, so I assumed that based on map traditions of the time (you show us and we'll show you) that Hudson Terminal was a direct origin of the line. As a former "IND" employee, I know that at the time, the IND would have originated the train THERE, but then again, wasn't around at the time myself, so it's "hearsay" ... no offense taken, for what it's worth.
A four-car train on the E! Could you imagine that today?
IIRC that's a photo of a test train. I'm sure they ran longer trains to the fair once revenue service began.
From my book "Subway to the World's Fair" by Frederik Kramer, the World's Fair line was mostly served by the GG train, with the E running as a special during high patronage hours.
This book is also chocked full of pictures of the line as it was when operated, including the terminal. A must have for railfans.
There is a 32-page softbound book on the subject, "Subway to the World's Fair" by Frederick A. Kramer, illustrated, published by Bells & Whistles of Westfield, NJ, 1991. No doubt it's out of print, but I've seen it offered on eBay from time to time. It covers both BMT and IND, with emphasis on the IND's line through the swamp.
I have it. I bought it from Amazon.com in early 2000. It's a great source of info on this subject.
Have a look at my History of the IND right here on this site. Scroll down to the section called "The World's Fair Railroad" for a description of the services. It says:
On April 30th, 1939 at 10:56AM, the line opened. The GG provided the bulk of the service between Smith/9th Streets and the Fair, and at the close of the evening rush hour, it was augmented by E express service between the Fair and Hudson Terminal. Service generally ran until 1:00am.
--Mark
Were there any other part-time stations at the time? More recently, all stations were open full-time until 1992, when the late night 3 shuttle turned into a bus and the weekend J was cut back to Canal.
There were no stops along the route between 71/Continental and the World's Fair.
I know -- I'm asking if there were any part-time stops anywhere in the system (systems, really, pre-Unification).
I don't believe there were any part time stations or stops in the subway many years ago. Maybe the closest were the stops on the BRT that were for the Brooklyn racetracks. I was going to say the Dyre line. But those are part time booths. Not stations.
Don't forget that the "Aqueduct Racetrack" stop on the Rockaway line has been part time since it opened.
There were two planned, though, one at Jewel Ave, and I don't remember where the other one was supposed to be. They were never built though.
--Mark
Here's the map:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/indwfmap.jpg
GP-38: The World's Fair Railroad was in service from April 30,1939 to November 1,1939 and from May 11,1940 to October 28,1940. Service was provided 24 hours a day by GG trains. During the 1940 season E train service was also provided on Saturday and Sunday evenings leaving the Fair from 824pm to 129am and arriving at the Fair from Hudson Terminal from 949pm to 118am. Note that these E trains ran between the World's Fair and Hudson Terminal supplementing the then regular E service between 169 Street and Church Avenue. This service may also have been provided during the 1939 season but I cannot say so for certain.
I have some question about the use of the "S" sign however. The only pictures that I have seen of a train on that line were of a test train taken prior to openning. It was a four car test train signed up "S" World's Fair on the north end and "E" 8 Avenue on the south end. Note that it was a daytime picture and E trains only ran to the Fair on weekend evenings. It may have been that trains operating to the Fair carried "S" signs only on the front bulkheads because there is never any mention of the "S" surplanting the GG when the Fair was open. Also on the aforementioned weekend evenings it would have been necessary to differentiate between the E and GG since both services ran from the Fair at the same time. Perhaps on of our older members who actually rode the service could provide definite information.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info! I never realized that the GG was the train that provided the bulk of the service. Funny, considering the GG didn't even go to Manhattan. I guess that is why occasional evening E's gave a little bit of an extra service for direct Manhattan service. Although the Manhattan passengers would have had three chances to switch at either Queens Plaza, Roosevelt, or Continental.
Chris
>>> Although the Manhattan passengers would have had three chances to switch at either Queens Plaza, Roosevelt, or Continental. <<<
They could also take the Flushing line, either IRT or BMT. Remember, in those days there were few transfers between the three companies, so your destination would largely determine which line you rode. The purpose of the IND line was not to better serve the fair going public, but to allow the IND to get a piece of the action.
Tom
Sometimes I wonder what were the few transfers on the subway? Prior to unification in 1940, I understand there were only a few. But they were difficult to find or to use.
>>> I wonder what were the few transfers on the subway? Prior to unification in 1940 <<<
AFAIK, the only free transfer prior to unification was the IRT-BMT de facto free transfer anywhere beyond Queensboro Plaza toward Flushing and Astoria
The IND-IRT transfers at 155th Street (Polo Grounds) and 161st Street was started when the the 9th Avenue El closed at unification in 1940.
The BMT-IND transfer from the Brighten line at Franklin Avenue (What Franklin Shuttle?), was started when the Fulton El closed at unification in 1940.
In 1942, when the 2nd Avenue Subway closed, free transfer was instituted at Queensboro Plaza.
All other inter-division transfers date from the 100% fare increase in 1948 or later.
Tom
And at places like Times Square and Atlantic ave,you had to pay an extra fare to transfer...wonder how much that 'inflated' ridership totals?
Also started in 1940 was the BMT IND transfer at Rockaway Ave. and Fulton Street between the A subway and remaining part of the Fulton St. El.
Don't forget, patronage for the World's Fair was citywide. Manhattan access probably wasn't the main function of the service. My father was 8 when he visited the fair, and he lived in Flatbush at the time.
Don't forget, patronage for the World's Fair was citywide. Manhattan access probably wasn't the main function of the service. My father was 8 when he visited the fair, and he lived in Flatbush at the time. Not to mention that there was BMT-IRT service to the fair from Manhattan via the Corona line. Kramer's book details the rebuilding of Willet's Point to accomodate these patrons (my father included).
The "S" picture you refer to is on the cover of Kramer's book. Since the station is deserted and it's a daytime pic, I'll bet it's a test train and the pic was taken before the service was open to the public.
The latest aner image is that of an R143 apparently making simulated stops with the doors opening trackside. Are those blocks or sandbags visible in the doorways?
My typing got scrwed up and I forgot to preview it. I meant "banner image."
banner images are random, could you post a link?
The image is located here: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/pix.pl?/slides/r143=16
It is R143 #8101K, image shot by Trevor Logan.
I saw an R142(A) at 137th yard on sunday
What was it doing there?
Relaxing.
where is this 137th Yard?
Underground, between the 137th Street and 145th Street stations on the 1/9. The revenue tracks pass through the middle of the yard. It can only hold a few trains.
Underground on the 1/9 line.
where is this 137th Yard?
It's on the 1 line, between 137th St. and 145th St. It's pretty simply a five-track yard (three tracks west of the downtown track and two tracks east of the uptown track).
Check http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/biguptown.gif
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
the whole time i thought they were just extra track. doesn't seem like a train yard.
Go through there during non-rush hour and you'll see all the R-62A's lined up.
since you all have clarified it for me, i now know that i have seen it a million times. i thought of it as just extra storage for trains, like what they use the Queens boulevard line for train storage on weekends. it doesn't look like what i percieve a train yard to be, which is the tracks and the maintenance shed. what also tripped me about my not knowing it is a train yard is that one time the main service track was under construction that day and the train detoured through the 137th street train yard.
It's a miniature yard.
And it wasn't just one day that trains detoured through the yard -- it was at least three or four months, rush hours included, southbound, and at least a month or two northbound.
I guess that yard is the reason that they chose 137th Street to start/terminate some trains years ago. I always found that to be an odd station to use as a terminal. It' makes some sense now.
It's not an odd choice at all. Look at the track map -- it's a natural place to terminate trains, since they can relay north of the station. It's also the last of the busy stops. Until 1989, when skip-stop was introduced, alternate rush hour 1 trains terminated at 137th. Even without the yard, it would make sense.
"It's also the last of the busy stops."
Am I right in thinking that 137th is busier in the counter-rush-hour direction than in the rush hour direction? It's not an area with many high density buildings that would fuel a big rush hour. But it does have CUNY, which would attract a lot of riders heading northbound in the morning and southbound in the evening.
That sounds logical, but the only numbers I've seen are total station-by-station passenger counts for 1999 and for 2000.
..slowly creeping it's way uptown for scrapping..
(We can DREAM... till the day.)
wouldn't that be 50 years from now when they will be scrapped? my only assumation that the R-142A set is sitting there is because of problems that needs to be worked out.
It was a #2 layed-up because of the G.O. affecting service between 149 Mott and E180.
Do you know when 2's are scheduled to run to or from 137th? In revenue service or not?
There are NO #2 trains scheduled to run to/from 137St. The train(s) was probably layed up there for the night since it can get to 239St yard due to the weekend GO knocking out service btwn Mott and E.180St.
I was referring to the supplement schedule for that GO. Are any 2 trains specifically scheduled to go there or do they just happen to end up there because there's nowhere else for them to go?
Can I assume some 2 trains turn at Lenox Term?
No you cant assume that neither. All #2 trains from Bklyn terminate at 149St-GC. Not at 137St-CC, 148St-Lenox Term. Ill check the supplement later on to make sure.
Thanks. I'll be waiting at 125th with camera in hand. Too bad there won't be any Redbirds -- that would be a real treat.
The #2 trains layed-up at 137 are not in service to or from 137.
Having one or two deuces stopping at those 5 stations on a Sat. & Sun. for a few weeks would simply confuse the living hell out of those people. If "ignorance is bliss" they are the happiest people on the planet.
I still want to get a picture, if you can find out when they pass through.
But I don't see how southbound 2 trains would confuse anyone. Some would refuse to get on; the rest would just figure they're missigned 1's. At 96th the C/R would announce that the train is running express.
I can imagine why sending them northbound in service past 96th would be a bad idea. OTOH, 3 trains are sometimes diverted in service to 137th.
The other day while doing a put-in out of Canarsie Yard (I was looking forward to R-143s, instead ended up with the "Cadillac" R-42s), I noticed a few tracks over an R-143 train (#8118 in particular) with rusting on the roof!!! I was shocked given the very young age of these cars!! The train is kinda new to be already having rusting on and about the roofs. The R-40M/42s are one thing given they are 32 - 33 years old, but what's the excuse for a new R-143 to be already suffering from steel rusting on the roof? And they (NYCT) say the trains are supposed to have a life expectancy of 50 years......I DON'T THINK SO!!
Are you sure it's rust? I thought the R-143s were all stainless. Stainless really doesn't rust easily!
I'm guessing that the what you really saw was junk on the roof that looked like rust. Couldda been rustywater or something..
you are mostly right that it could be rust water. but stainless steel can corrode. however the corrosion can be cleaned off.
I saw pictures of R-46s with rust colored crud on the entire car otself. It is possible that there are a few rist spots. It could also be that there is a lot of crud on the cars themselves.
#3 West End Jeff
Indeed it was!! There were deep brown spots, with corroded-looking centers, with trails left behind apparently by water trailing down. If that's not rust, I dunno what is!! I was surprised and disbeliefed myself!!
What you Probably saw was the Left over of what happens when a 143 goes thru the Car wash.Seems some chemicals are causing spots to form on the roof and sides.Thats Why 143 Havent been car washed in over 2 weeks.
Could be! Some chemical do eat off steel.
True. In fact, Canarsie terminal hasn't been washing at all the past couple of days.
Oh, that's just great, let's go back to the old days of dirty trains.....progress. Again, don't they think of these "little" things when ordering new trains? What are they going to do about this - leave the trains dirty?
It's the drought. Transit systems all over the Northeast are saving water by not washing equipment as often.
Baltiore is not washing buses, LRV's, subway cars. BSM is not washing streetcars.
Maybe we'll get lots of snow this winter. Short term problem, lots of water.
Oh, okay, if it's because of the drought, that's acceptable. I thought it was because someone mentioned that the washing chemicals were causing something on the R143's exteriors.
New forecast has remnants of Lili dousing us with some plentiful tropical downpours Friday night and Saturday.
It sure has been warm lately too, drought and warm temps definately not a good thing.
Who has the job of washing subway cars? Is it a dedicated person/staff, or just a T/O that drives the train thru it? How ofter do trains normally get washed?
The Dispatcher on duty decides whether to wash trains in accordance with the RTO Superintendent's wishes. There is also a car wash operator (I believe from the Maintenance of Way Dept. but I am not entirely sure) in a room alongside the wash which oversees the operation of the wash, and who can override or shutdown the wash if need be.
To operate through the wash, the train hits a sensor which activates the soap through the first wash barn. About 200 feet later in the second wash barn, the train hits another sensor which activates the brushes & a third sensor activates the water spray to rinse the soap off the train.
The maximum speed for the wash is either 2 or 3 mph depending on the facility.
Washer is crap...waste of energy and manpower. Hands on experience with 239ths car wash...carbody remains stained and undercar remains Hell. At one time there were efforts made to powerwash undercar but when the careless goofed and flooded traction motors...boomsky. CI Peter
So how should one wash a subway car?
U should the r142a 7661-70 set on the 4. I made a connection with that set on Sunday at Franklin, the whole was so dirty, the bums started to make fun of it.
And the ads on the trains say (and I DOUBLE quote) "" they're the last word in subway design"" .....HA!!! That's funny!! :-) The last words aren't that good!! I am not gonna lie they are comfortable to work on, but I say buld the trains like they used to....BUILT TO LAST!!
Oops, my mistake......"build", not "buld"....lol :-D :-)
I've seen this (you get a great view of the roofs from the Canarsie crew room). It just looked to me like steel dust that had settled on the roofs and rusted. That stuff gets on everything you know.
Its the same with the R142s.If you look by the door on the outside theres rust there.Its from water,rain,snow,and mositure.Remember trains stay outside overnight.Or it could be from the tunnels moisture.\
R142/R143MAN
AML
8232 thru 8235 seen 0445 this AM at 59th St Columbus Circle S/B. Diesels on either end.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's hard not to catch a R143 on the L Line now.
-AcelaExpress2005
When did the L stop at Columbus Circle?
They are being sent to the East NY yard after being delivered at 207 ST. That why they were seen. Probably at West 4th St they switch over to the 6th Ave and then on to the K tracks after.
Sorry for bringing this up, Fred.
Perhaps the darkest day in Dodger history up until then occurred on this date in 1951. Russ Hodges called it this way:
One out, last of the ninth, Branca pitches, Bobby Thomson takes a strike call on the inside corner. Bobby batting at .292. He's had a single and a double and he drove in the Giants' first run with a long fly to center. Brooklyn leads it, 4-2. Hartung at third, even with the bag, not taking any chances. Lockman at second without too big of a lead, but he'll be running like the wind if Bobby gets a hold of one. Branca throws... there's a long shot...it's going to be, I believe...The Giants won the pennant! The Giants won the pennant!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!!! Bobbby Thomson hit it into the lower deck of the left field seats. The Giants won the pennant and they're going crazy! They're going crazy!! THEY WONNNNN!!!!!!!!!
In Ebbets Field, Andy Pafko would have caught it for an easy out. As it was, the ball just barely made it into the stands at the 315-foot sign. It was a sinking line drive and Campanella was begging, "Sink you devil, sink!"
P. S. Willie Mays was in the on deck circle. Leo Durocher had no memory of Thomson hitting that home run. He was coaching at third, and when the ball was hit he automatically yelled for Hartung to tag up, then when he saw it wasn't going to be caught, he waved Lockman home. Then he turned to see where the ball was, and there was no ball. That's all he could remember.
Darker than 1957?
I was too young in 1957 to be aware of anything.:)
If you were a Dodger fan in New York on October 3, 1951, it was the darkest day of the century. From that moment until the Brooklyns clinched the 1952 pennant on September 23, I ate all kinds of shit from my friends. They took delight in ribbing me all day, day after day about how the Bums choked big time the year before. 1957 didn't bother me because the Dodgers came out here, which I thought at the time was a big deal. It took only a few months for me to realize that this was no longer my team, and it hasn't been since.
Don't know if this is true or an Urban Legend, but at that time radio stations never recorded or taped their broadcast. Russ Hodges was the Giants radio announcer.
Supposedly the tape was made by a Dodger fan with an early tape machine because he figured that the Dodgers would win and wanted to record Hodges eating crow.
Wonder if the Miracle on Coogan's Bluff would be so ingrained in our psyche if the tape wasn't made and used with the film footage.
Also wonder if there is a tape of the Dodger Announcers' (IIRC, Red Barber & Vin Scully) calling that play ?
I don't know if there is a tape, but I once read that Barber, who called the play, simply deadpanned: "The game is over. See you next year."
He said" It is a long drive to deep left field and this ball is a home run and the Giants win the pennant. That and nothing more. I heard last night on a TV special first aired last year at the 50th Anniversary of that tragedy. It was called" "The Shot Heard 'Round the World. I still get a little sick recalling that. It was a very bad experience for Brooklyn fans, and though we won four of the next five NL Championships including one World Series, the event still brings shivers to many of us.
However, not that much that I cannot call this even the single greatest event in baseball history. It ranks number one and should stay t hat way unless some revisionists try to insert something else. The only other remote possibility was Kirk Gibson's dramatic homer in the ninth inning of the first game of the '88 World Series. Since he was just about crippled on both legs when he went up there it certainly does rank very high. But the Thomson homer has to be No. 1.
Supposedly there is a tape of another announcer calling that play. It wasn't Red Barber or Vin Scully. I am tempted to say Ernie Harwell, but could be dead wrong.
The Dodger announcers were Red Barber, Connie Desmond, and Vin Scully. The Giant announcers were Russ Hodges and Ernie Harwell.
Harwell called in on WPIX, Channel 11, Hodges on WMCA radio, while Barber called it on WMGM radio.
There are at least two other radio broadcasts of that game and both have been at least partially preserved (I have heard parts of both). One of course was Red Barber, the great Dodger announcer, on WMGM (1050 AM). He said; "....and it's in there for a home run and the New York Giants win the National League pennant and the Polo Grounds goes wild." The other one was Gordon McLendon, doing a nationwide radio broadcast on the Liberty Network. He said after Thomson's blast, "I don't know what to say...I don't know what to say. It's the greatest game in the history of baseball."
Ernie Harwell, who only last week retired from baseball broadcasting in Detroit, was doing the game on Channel 11/WPIX, but in those days videotapes were not used to preserve broadcasts. As Harwell puts it so well, "only I and Mrs. Harwell know that I called that game."
And to keep it on the subject, there were about 34,000 people at the Polo Grounds that day (vs. 55,000 seats). I wonder how many took the D train or the Polo Grounds shuttle?
And finally, wouldn't it be nice if the Yankees and Giants met in the World Series this year. Memories of the old Subway Series days, and hopefully no Atlanta Braves in the World Series this year (I've been watching game 2 of Atl vs SF and that obnoxious tomahawk chop is unfortunately alive and well).
I'm rooting for an Angels-Giants Series, which means I probably won't get it. Why do I want that? So we can stick it up the LA Dodgers asses. They're not no. 1 in California and not no. 1 in the Los Angeles Metropolitan area. It couldn't happen to a more sorry franchise than the Dodgers have become.
I heard a tape of Barber's call. It was very professional and to the point. I was playing softball with our sixth grade class when all this took place. I had left after seven-and-a-half innings with the Dodgers leading 4-1. I asked this guy John Pearno who had won, and he said the Giants 5-4. Within minutes all my friends were there giving me the razberry.
We know that sometimes Bloomberg takes the IRT to work. But last night he took the 4 to the Yankee game! My friend and I boarded a train of Redbirds at GCT around 7:05. At 86th, he gets on with a big security detail. The car was so crowded that we couldn't really see that well.
However, at 161/Yankee Stadium, I wind up RIGHT behind him and i tell my friend to stick close. We got fast-tracked right up to the main gates by sticking to him like glue. It was fun "being in his entourage" for 5 mins cause everyone is starring, shaking hands, etc.
During the game there was an announcement on the big centerfield sign about the mayor encouraging everyone to use mass transit. At least he's not being hypocritical.
Too bad the Yankees lost though.....
*NICE* to know that New Yorkers STILL know how to doa sidewalk act and be "on the juice" ... A tip of my PANTS for you in the most humble of respect ... seriously, New Yorkers *USED TO* have baetzim. I'm proud YOU still carry on the tradition, and this ain't no jokee. ESPECIALLY with the "nuke the kukes" security details. Nice to know SOMEONE can still get over. ;)
(I'm KIDDING! Seriously, nice to know SOMEONE can still have fun in "fun city" ... I stopped coming when *I* couldn't have any fun, but last Christmas, I had *FUN* in "FUN CITY" and it was just the teats ... and this all AFTER 9/11 ... only shows the life you lead is a function of your ability to ENJOY it and SCREW those who would mess with it ... moo.
To bad the Yankees lost? Says you. I hope the Anaheims have enough huevos to dump the pinstripes twice out here so the Steinbrenners can finally go home with their tails between their legs. It would make the millions upon millions of Yankee haters rejoice that there was justice in the world.
"Too bad the Yankees lost though....."
But they won on Tuesday night, when I was in the ballpark! I didn't see Bloomie there, but of course Rudy was in his usual spot. -Nick
Today is the second aniversary of October 3, 2000. Yay! Let's have a railfan trip in celebration. After work, everybody take Amtrak down to Atlanta, and I'll give a tour of MARTA station signs and the different styles being used. See you this evening!
Trivia: did you know that 10/3/00 was on a Tuesday, yes it's true, but hard to believe. It's not on a Thursday like today is.
It's also the third anniversary of Ocotber 3, 1999, which even more strangely was on a Sunday, if you can believe that. Word on the street is that by 2004 we'll be celebrating this anniversary on Sunday once again.
Mark
I took a test ride aboard the NYC Water Taxi Tuesday night right after work.
I walked down through Cadman Plaza Park to Fulton Ferry landing and boarded adjacent to the River Cafe. The boats are done up in a checkercab color scheme (Catamarran style). The walk was about 12 mintues and the boat pulled out at about 6:30. The seating was comfortable with 'commuter bus' style seats along the sides, and longitudal types (back to back) in the center of the craft. There was an upper deck that was closed due to ruff waters that evening.
The normal route for the WaterTaxi is: (1) West 44th Street (Pier 84); (2) West 22nd Street/Chelsea Piers (Pier 62); (3) World Financial Center (North Cove); (4) Battery Park (Pier A); (5) Wall Street/South Street Seaport (Pier 11); (6) Fulton Ferry Landing (Brooklyn).
I got off at the first stop which was World Financial Center (normally would have been further up River at Pier 84, but this was the free trial service so locations (1) and (2) were not available for the first week of service. The trip took about 10 mintues and was initially quite slow (usual harbor traffic) but later quikened once we rounded past the Staten Island Ferry dock area. Anyone who can't handle choppy seas wouldn't have enjoyed the trip as it was a rocky ride and being a small ferry boat meant you FELT every swell.
Connection to rapid transit: rides will be available through MetroCards (via $3.00 per-one way trips). I believe WaterTaxi is working out a plan were customers could purchase a $15 FunPass which would allow unlimited day rides aboard the WaterTaxi including the usual bus/subway privileges.
Not a bad trip, but I'd wait till next summer to really appreciate a ride on a hot summer day right around sunset...
>>> The normal route for the WaterTaxi is: (1) West 44th Street (Pier 84); (2) West 22nd Street/Chelsea Piers (Pier 62); (3) World Financial Center (North Cove); (4) Battery Park (Pier A); (5) Wall Street/South Street Seaport (Pier 11); (6) Fulton Ferry Landing (Brooklyn) <<<
Why do they call it water "taxi"? It sounds more like a fixed route omnibus, or at least a jitney operation, rather than the water taxis such as are found in Venice.
Tom
I suppose "ferry" wouldn't be entirely appropriate either, as that term implies back-and-forth operation between two points, not a multistop route like the one in question. "Water bus" might be a better choice.
To keep this thread on topic, I like "water subway".
--Mark
"To keep this thread on topic, I like "water subway"."
But then they would have to use submarines!
Hey, if they use hovercraft, then we could call it an "Elevated"
-Larry
Yeah sure, ferry could be accurate, it need not imply a back and forth movement of people and material, really all it is is a shuttle between 2 or more points on the water. Case in point: the washington state ferries operates a service out of Anacortes to and from Victoria, British Colombia with intermediate stops in the San Juan Islands at Orcas Island, Shaw Island, Lopez Island and Friday Harbor. Usually the larger Elwha will cover the 'express' runs that may stop at only Victoria, Orcas and Anacortes, while the smaller Nisqually and Evergreen State cover the local milk runs. Closer to NY, the NY Fast Ferry company offers service from Atlantic Highlands to both Pier 11 and the ferry terminal at E34th.
And you can bet that this is on topic, since to the people on the Olympic, and Kitsap Penninsulas, on Vashon and Whidby Islands, and in the San Juans, the Washington State ferry system IS the subway, for some the only way off their island of choice. And if you claim that it is not rapid enough, you should keep in mind that the Passenger only fast ferrys, whether of Seattle's WSF, New York's Seastreak, and NYFF, and whomever runs them in San Fran, probably could outrun most NYCT subway equipment given the chance.
I guess necause it's the smallest passenger boat we have now, so why not? I rode it on the first day last week. Pretty nice, but it's hard to stand when it's bouncing on the waves.
Only because the overall rounded shape of the boats body + the coloring is borrowed from the old NYC Checker Cabs of yore.
Did it actually stop at Pier A? On the web page it says, "Pier A’s docking facility needs to be modified to insure the safety of our passengers. Once our docks are in place service will begin. Please check back for updates." Also, it only goes north of WFC during off-peak hours.
Their pricing structure is a little weird. It costs $3 to ride one way in rush hour, presumably any number of stops. Outside of rush hour, it costs $4 to go one stop, and $8 to go more than that (but still only one way). So on weekends, it costs $4 to go from Pier A to Pier 11, or $8 to go from Pier A to Brooklyn. That's pretty steep! On the other hand, $4 to go from WFC to Chelsea Piers or from Chelsea Piers to West 44th isn't such a bad deal, considering the lousy subway access, inconvenient parallel bus routes, and the quick trip on the water.
From the web page, it seems that there will be two 1-day passes. The $15 All-Day Pass is for use only on the water taxi itself. The $19 Fun Pass includes an MTA FunPass, so there isn't any savings over buying their $15 All-Day Pass and having a $4 MTA FunPass separately.
It's also a little strange that there are no published schedules (at least, not yet) for a service that runs only every 20-40 minutes and only until 7-8pm.
Well, they announced a Stop for Battery Park. Where they actually docked at Pier A I couldn't tell you as I departed at their first stop at WFC.
Well, they made an announcement for a stop at Battery Park. Whether they actually docked at Pier A I couldn't tell you as I departed at their first stop at WFC.
That would mean they didn't dock at Pier A, since Pier A comes before the WFC. =) (Pier A is in Battery Park, WFC is in Battery Park City, but most people don't distinguish between the two.)
True. They first docked at WFC then all stops afterward were in a order or working their way south and then around the harbor and onto the East River side. With their last stop of South Street Seaport the taxi's then head right across the river to Fulton Ferry Landing.
Cut and paste link.
http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-0/103363993540270.xml
Assuming that all the details in the article are correct, NJ Transit probably should never have let this go to trial. They should have settled early, and then gone after the manufacturers to extract some money from them. In this way, the award might have been lessened.
The woman's injuries and disability are consistent with the accident - she is most likely not exaggerating. The rod directly damaged or destroyed nerves to her face. Sense of smell is provided by a nerve which literally has an exposed ending high up in the nose. She's very lucky to be alive and still sentient. She's lucky not to have been left blind.
God, NJT's lawyers are good BS artists. Train pantographs are almost universally made to break away in the event of a snag, to prevent even more dammage to the wires and or equipment. IIRC, when the M-2s came online, they weren't designed this way, and the roofs actually got ripped off a few cars durring snags.
In any case, this is a freak accident. Stuff like this has happened for years. Passengers getting killed by springs getting ejected from trucks, debris on the track, pan snags, other stuff going flying....
But at least in contrast to other cases, (a) this woman did nothing to contribute to her own misfortune and (b) a greater level of care would have prevented the accident. Whether the greater level of care would have been reasonable is of course open to discussion. The jury thought so, while many railroad professionals might or might not disagree.
oh, I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying that NJT passing the buck to the manufacturer here is just plain stupid
Story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/23750p-22521c.html
How long does jury duty typically last? That's really what my question boils down to.
This evening I'll be spending one fare ($1.36).
Tomorrow I'll be spending probably one fare, possibly two.
Saturday I probably won't be riding at all.
Sunday I'm going unlimited in any case.
Monday I'm on jury duty. I'd like to go unlimited each day I'm on jury duty, but I don't know how long that will be. Aside from jury duty, I won't do much riding next week.
If I'm dismissed on Monday, I'm best off with two single fares and two Fun Passes, for $10.72. If I'm dismissed on Tuesday, again, paying day-by-day will only cost $14.72. If I continue through Wednesday, I should spend $17.00 on an unlimited and start using it today. But if I continue through Thursday, I should wait until tomorrow to start up the unlimited. And if I continue through Friday, I should wait until Sunday.
So what's my best bet?
Incidentally, how much time will I have off for lunch?
If you don't get selected for a case figure 3 days.
If you are on a case that is in the selection process figure 1-2 hours for lunch, depends on the judge.
The above estimates are from personal experience in The Bronx, your results may vary.
Bring PLENTY of reading matter, bring a copy of the Post AND the Village Voice. Confuses the hell out of the lawyers. Act disinterested and you probably won't get selected.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've had similar results in Manhattan. If you don't get selected, on the afternoon of the 3rd day they dismiss you. But I do hear they are trying to streamline the process by calling more people but keeping them there less time.
I've never had less than 1.5 hours for lunch.
I'd bet on a Fun Pass on Sunday and any day on jury duty that you plan to do side trips as well.
So it's pretty much definite that I'll be going at least through Wednesday? Then it seems that a 7-day would be in order.
The only question is when to start it. How likely is it that I'll be picked?
As for reading material, just last week I bought a used copy of The Power Broker. I've read it before but I'd like to read it again. I think it'll amply fill up my time.
" How likely is it that I'll be picked?"
My experience is 5% or less in criminal, 10% in civil. But again, those numbers may have dropped with the supposed larger pools and less time in the system.
If youare, I hope you find it an interesting experience. I enjoyed my jury duty (it was years ago in California).
The likelihood of being picked has a lot to do with your occupation. When I served in Manhattan about 3 years ago, I was dismissed after 2 hours being told that there was basically no chance that I'd be selected for a case because I work in the insurance industry.
CG
If you don't get selected, on the afternoon of the 3rd day they dismiss you. But I do hear they are trying to streamline the process by calling more people but keeping them there less time.
When I went to jury duty last year in Manhattan, they kept me and a bunch of other people (maybe 30 in all?) for all of one day. In that day, I was questioned for a single case, wasn't selected, and that was it. We were told there just weren't enough cases to warrant keeping all of us around.
I already served jury duty back in late May.You stay there for a max of 3 days.If you dont get selected as a juror on the 1st or 2nd day then they might let you go on the 2nd day.Now if you get selected THEN you'll need to stay how ever long the trail you were selected to may take.
Its a sad day for the rail community as the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad was sold as part of the Iron Railways Corp bankruptcy. After serving Maine for more than 100 years the BAR will cease to exist as a railroad. The BAR was famous for its fleet of early EMD BL-2 diesels and various other 50's cab units. The BAR later became the recpiepiant of several of the former PRSL GP-38 units after they were sold by Conrail.
Rail World, a Chicago-based railway investment and management company, will change the system's name to Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway if its $50 million offer is accepted by a federal bankruptcy court judge next week. The $50 million purchase price is down from a $62 million offer made late last year by Rail World, because the system continues to lose money and customers, according to the system's president.
I have a Bangor and Aroostook boxcar in N scale. I got a chance to see one of their trains for real in Millinocket, Maine two years ago when I went mountain climbing there.
Weep.
Mark
After the Mellon Bank's "Guilford Transportation," even slow cooked in FLAMES would have been an improvement. A KAZILLIOON CHEERS for the "Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway" ... CP wrestled the D&H from those SCUMBAGS, any which way the B&A goes is UP from the flipping Mellon Bank ... even liquidation. :(
And the LIRR still chugs along after 168 years.
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
One-by-one, Amtrak’s Acela Express high-speed trainsets are returning to service. Five trainsets remain out of service until new yaw dampers are installed connecting trucks to carbodies, or cracks can be ground out.
Karina van Veen, at Amtrak’s Washington headquarters, told D:F, “12 trainsets are running, making 40 departures.” She also noted, “Prior to the mechanical difficulties, 15 trainsets were running for 50 departures.”
Bombardier-Alstom, the consortium that built the trainsets, has not yet found a permanent solution, she added.
“We are still working with Bombardier to determine a cause and develop a permanent fix.”
A Canadian online publication, the Financial Post, looked into the Acela problems with a Canadian view, and published their results on September 21. Reporters Brian Hutchinson and Sean Silcoff wrote that Bombardier, Inc. anticipated Amtrak troubles, and warned the railroad of defects that would start appearing down the road.
The reporters searched through documents “tucked away in a Washington, D.C. courthouse.”
One by one, the Acela Expresses are returning to regular service.
The documents cast fresh light on the trains’ mechanical troubles.
Bombardier also alleged that Amtrak has “wrongfully withheld $51 million in project payments.”
In an August 2000, letter to Amtrak, Bombardier warned that “in major respects,” the trains did not comply with contract requirements.
It pointed to possible “defects” in the trains’ undercarriages – the trucks.
When all 18 trainsets were suddenly pulled from service in August, the disruption cost Amtrak an estimated $9 million (in American dollars) in lost revenues. It also reignited concerns that the trains, financed through a U.S. $611 million loan from Canada’s Export Development Corp. (EDC), will never live up to their billing as a speedy, reliable alternative to air travel.
The Bombardier and Alstom consortium, led by Bombardier, began work on them in 1997.
The EDC is a Crown corporation that seeks to stimulate sales of Canadian products outside the country, according to the published report. EDC also lent Amtrak another $400 million to buy additional Bombardier equipment, including 15 8,000 hp electric locomotives (HHP-8s, Nos. 650-664) used for Amtrak’s regional passenger train service between Washington, D.C., New York City and Boston.
The loans had “been a closely guarded secret,” [in Canada] noted the Ottawa Citizen when it broke the story two years ago.
“Details of the EDC-Amtrak loans are not disclosed in EDC annual reports or financial statements,” it wrote.
These days, Amtrak officials freely admit the EDC loans were essential to their high-speed rail project. “Amtrak had no cash” of its own to pay for the trains, recalled Amtrak board member Amy Rosen.
The Boston Globe reported the loan package “astonished some [U.S.] lawmakers, who had hoped Amtrak would put its money into a train proven to work on American rails, and into upgrading its deteriorating tunnels, wiring and tracks.” That assumed the appropriate high-speed rail technology existed. It did not.
“People think that Amtrak should have just bought some train off the shelf,” said Scott Leonard, assistant director of the National Association of Railroad Passengers.
“That kind of argument drives me crazy. There wasn’t anything out there. The new trains had to be built from scratch.”
A savvy observer also noted the trains also had to be built to “tough U.S. FRA standards. The crashworthiness was far stricter than anything else in the world.”
Court documents showed Bombardier claimed it felt pressure “to deliver equipment allegedly contractually non-compliant in major respects for revenue service,” according to an August 2000 letter the builder wrote to Amtrak. The trains entered service four months later, more than one year behind schedule.
Bombardier filed its complaint against Amtrak in November 2001, in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. The complaint is housed in a massive Washington courthouse, directly opposite the Canadian embassy. It makes for some startling reading.
Almost from the moment the contract was signed, Bombardier claims, Amtrak began meddling with the consortium’s work.
“As a result of Amtrak’s continuing interference,” Bombardier alleges, “designs have been modified literally thousands of times, large numbers of already completed components have had to be discarded or retrofitted.... The magnitude of the extra work caused by Amtrak is reflected in the vast Contract record – more than 19,900 letters, 9,000 engineering change notices, 4,700 retrofit notices and 800 formally recorded meetings.... Amtrak’s conduct resulted in many months of delivery delays and large cost overruns.”
Bombardier pointed out that under the contract, Amtrak was to provide track that would allow the new trainsets to run at 150 miles an hour, with a maximum “cant deficiency” around curves of nine inches.
Defined by Bombardier, cant deficiency reflects the lateral forces imposed on rail equipment in curves. The higher the cant deficiency, the greater the lateral forces.
According to Bombardier, it told Amtrak in a confidential April 1997 meeting that existing track along the corridor was “not good enough for the speeds required” under the contract.
Bombardier is suing Amtrak for “not less than $200 million,” claiming that persistent meddling by the train operator forced the consortium to incur cost overruns.
Bombardier won’t discuss the lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court last November, nor will it reveal if Amtrak has made any payment on the trains.
In July, a lawyer representing Amtrak told a Washington judge that “We think Bombardier messed up this contract something fierce, that there was incompetence in meeting contract specifications.”
However, Bombardier claimed it warned Amtrak as early as 1997 that “inadequate” railway infrastructure along the Boston-Washington corridor did not meet “international high-speed safety and ride-quality standards,” and that poor track quality could pose problems for the new trains.
New federal track standards that Amtrak encouraged were “unsafe for high-speed train service,” Bombardier said, citing an opinion from French high-speed rail experts.
The latest service disruption has been a major source of embarrassment for Bombardier, which is already reeling from its first-ever profit warning and a plunging stock price. [Bombardier’s latest quarterly statement appears else where in this issue. – Ed.]
Bombardier claims Amtrak’s “chronic financial problems precluded it from investing the funds necessary to bring Northeast Corridor track up to international high-speed safety and ride-quality standards.”
In July 1997, the U.S.FRA in Washington issued proposed safety track regulations that, Bombardier alleges, “would permit Amtrak to operate trains at high speeds and high cant deficiencies, on track whose overall quality was lower than that previously required for conventional train service.”
Bombardier alleges it warned both Amtrak and the FRA that the corridor track was inadequate, and that it would “create unsafe conditions if trains ran at the high speeds and high cant deficiency required under the contracts.”
What’s more, says Bombardier, high-speed experts from France presented Amtrak with confidential reports “demonstrating that the FRA’s new track standards were unsafe for high-speed train service.”
Amtrak, Bombardier claims, “continued to advocate standards that would decrease track quality and maintenance costs. As a consequence... the FRA issued track regulations that authorized train operation at high speeds and high cant deficiencies over track that, in key respects, was of lower quality than previously required for conventional train service.”
Amtrak’s poor track, Bombardier said, led to further design changes, more testing and delivery delays, all of which cost the consortium money.
The problems did not go unnoticed. In 1999, The Boston Globe reported engineers had “discovered excessive wear on the new wheels after the train went around curves” during performance tests. Amtrak was forced to make the first of several announcements that its high-speed service would be delayed.
“Skeptics have begun the chorus of ‘I told you so’ and are questioning whether revitalized Northeast Corridor service, whenever it happens, will live up to its billing,” the Globe harrumphed.
By June 2000, Bombardier was still concerned the trains could not meet contract requirements “in major respects,” including the performance of their undercarriages, or trucks.
Bombardier quietly informed Amtrak it was “not going to repeatedly tender equipment and then have Amtrak file claims alleging that the designs are not compliant in major respects.”
Amtrak would hear none of this; it wanted the trains delivered. The public had been told to expect the first high-speed trains by September 2000, although that seemed optimistic.
The company told Bombardier the track issue was not major, and that it need not be resolved “prior to the introduction of the trainsets into revenue service... the only consequence of this technical [track] issue is the potential operation of the trainsets at reduced speeds along certain portions of the Northeast Corridor.”
On December 10, Amtrak’s first Acela train rolled out of Washington’s Union Station, and made the inaugural high-speed run to Boston and back in 13 hours, a little more than two hours better than a conventional Amtrak train.
The new train was pulled from service the next day, after inspectors discovered some minor damage to a pantograph.
Less than a year later, Bombardier filed its complaint.
The lawsuit now seems prescient: Bombardier suggested the high-speed trains would experience difficulties, and this summer, they did. The question, of course, is why.
Not surprisingly, Amtrak denies the cracks in the suspension systems have anything to do with the quality of its track.
Amtrak has always denied that it made any inappropriate demands of Bombardier during the construction of its trains. Immediately after Bombardier filed its complaint last November, Amtrak issued a press release stating, “it refused to cut corners or accept shoddy workmanship.... The consortium’s record of failure ... is staggering.”
Amtrak maintains the Acela is safe.
The reporters bought tickets and took a ride on an Acela Express between Boston and New York.– Ed.
The Canadian Post is online at http://www.nationalpost.com/.
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
Amtrak’s plans to cut expansion projects nationwide, including hopes for a new station and restored passenger rail service at Daytona Beach, Fla., have left Mayor Bud Asher feeling ill.
“I got sick,” the mayor told the Daytona Beach Journal a fortnight ago. “It’s such a needed thing. We were so looking forward to having passenger train service back in Daytona Beach and a nice project.”
Asher was eagerly awaiting restored passenger service after a 30-year absence, and construction of a new station to help revive the city’s low-income west side.
Amtrak officials set aside expansion plans across the country and want a $1.2 billion subsidy for current operations, despite a deadline from Congress to be self-sufficient by December. More than $25 billion in federal subsidies have gone into Amtrak since it was formed in 1971.
U.S. Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.) of Winter Park, and a state transportation official said hopes to get local plans back on track hinge on resolving Amtrak’s financial problems.
“Right now, it’s sort of tied up in election-year politics,” Mica said. “Hopefully, next year we can make changes that actually increase services, not only for Daytona Beach, but throughout the United States.”
Mica has proposed spinning Amtrak off into separate operations, with the federal government, state governments and private companies operating the different parts. He would separate services such as long-distance, commuter rail and the Auto Train.
“It’s in serious need of reform,” Mica said. “Amtrak is responsible for all passenger, long-distance and commuter rail service and they’re not able to do any of them well.”
An Amtrak spokesman responded by defending the company’s operations and said plans to bring passenger rail service back to Daytona Beach have only been put on hold.
“Our intention is to move forward at a future date, but it’s going to be on hold for the coming year,” said Howard Riefs, an Amtrak spokesman in Chicago.
An emergency $200 million operating loan in July from the USDOT barred Amtrak from spending money on expansion plans for one year, he said.
State officials plan to continue budgeting – but not spending – $64 million to restore the Jacksonville-Miami passenger rail route, said Nazih Haddad, state passenger rail development manager. About $2 million of that state money, along with more than $400,000 in city funds from a gas tax, would go to buy land here and build a new terminal.
“Amtrak is sort of wobbling trying to continue services across the country and cannot spend monies on expansion of services this year,” he said. “We’re still committed to this project, but because of the uncertainly, we’re going to hold off on spending these dollars.”
Haddad said it would probably take another year for Congress to resolve Amtrak’s financial problems and get expansion plans going again.
The city is holding off on buying property for the station “until Congress figures out what to do about Amtrak,” City Manager Richard Quigley said. The proposed site is north of International Speedway Boulevard near Segrave Street on property owned by Florida East Coast Ry. and Florida Power & Light Co.
Asher said there’s been no decision yet on whether the city’s money would stay earmarked for the rail project or go toward other transportation needs.
Elsewhere in Florida, the state has little more than one year to meet a construction start deadline for high-speed rail and find a way to finance its potential $20 billion cost.
Almost two years ago, the St. Petersburg Times recalled on September 22, Florida voters surprised everyone and approved a constitutional amendment that required the state to begin construction by November 2003 on a high-speed rail system that would link Florida’s five largest cities. Phase One would link Orlando with the Tampa Bay area.
There has been a flurry of quiet activity aimed at accomplishing what the state constitution now requires, but with barely more than a year until the deadline, there is still no certainty that Florida will get high-speed rail, and no clear means to finance it.
“I was against it initially,” said state Sen. Jim Sebesta (R) of St. Petersburg, chairman of the state’s Senate Transportation Committee.
“When it passed, I gave a zero chance to ever seeing it. Now it’s up to 50-50.”
It is Sebesta’s fantasy to unveil a train that rides on a cushion of air, capable of speeds up to 350 mph without any vibration and in total silence; but he acknowledges that fantasies are fine, as long as you don’t have to pay for them.
Even with a less ambitions train, which might travel at 150 mph, the question remains: How will the state finance a luxury that could have a final price tag of $20 billion?
Florida’s High-Speed Rail Authority, created by the state legislature, has commissioned a pair of studies for potential investors. They will suggest the best routes for the trains, station locations, costs and ridership potential, and are due in December.
On October 3, the authority will issue requests for proposals to 11 private investors who have expressed an interest in building and operating a high-speed rail line in the Sunshine State.
The proposals are due in February, a critical date because in March the legislature will have to decide whether the project is viable, and if it isn’t, whether to ask voters in another constitutional amendment to repeal the first one.
State Sen. Ron Klein (D) of Delray Beach, prepared a repeal amendment for this November’s ballot, but was persuaded to withdraw it to give the process a chance to work. If it doesn’t, and Klein is certain it won’t, he will introduce a bill next session that either asks for repeal of the rail amendment or sets out in specific terms how it will be financed.
“I do not believe the private sector is going to pay for this,” Klein said. “What I’m concerned about is an open-ended state checkbook that would drain a lot of resources, including money to solve local transportation issues, like moving people between Tampa and St. Petersburg, between Miami and Fort Lauderdale. That’s where we have problems, not moving people between Orlando and Miami.”
Ah, if only Florida could take Senator Joe Bruno off our hands. He'd get them a nifty "Joe Bruno" train station toute suite ... so what if the mayor (or Amtrak employee) needed to buy a CLOCK for it ... Florida's gotta stop depending on REAL republicans and get themselves NYS KISSASS republicans and that train station would have already been BUILT! :)
SCREW the taxpayers ... welcome to NEW YORK GOP where, if you're NOT on welfare, you will be, then we can cut it off and titter at you.
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
They don’t want a sales tax increase – they only want a part of an existing tax. Saying it’s time for Indiana to get serious about high-speed rail, supporters of a Midwest rail project are planning a major effort to persuade state lawmakers to get on board.
Their plan is to create a new dedicated fund which would draw 0.04 percent of the state’s sales tax, or about $1.5 million a year, for investments, studies and matching money for federally funded projects, according to the Indianapolis Star of September 21.
Indiana is one of nine states that support the proposed $4.1 billion plan, which would link Indianapolis to every major city in the Midwest on trains going 110 mph or faster. Financially, the state has contributed little to its estimated $80 million to $140 million share of the price tag – but after its first two-day conference that ended September 20 in the capital city, the Indiana High Speed Rail Assn. unveiled plans for an aggressive lobbying effort during next year’s General Assembly.
Its strategy is to convince lawmakers that the benefits of better rail service are not just to passengers but to Indiana’s economy, which they say could reap $1.3 billion to $3.8 billion in new jobs, higher incomes and more tax revenue.
“The cornerstone of getting legislative support is our ability to show the jobs we can bring in,” said rail advocate Mark Urban, a civil engineer who will lead the effort.
He plans to produce comprehensive reports tailored to legislators who represent key districts along the proposed line. In Indiana, that includes about a dozen counties between Gary and Lawrenceburg and a half-dozen between Indianapolis and Louisville, Ky.
An estimated 5,560 to 16,700 jobs would be created, according to preliminary results of an economic impact study, details of which were released at the conference.
Most of the jobs would be directly related to the rail system itself and support industries, but many also would be created by the ripple effects of a better freight rail system, a key component of the plan.
The city of Gary, through which three high-speed routes would pass, would reap the most benefits. Indianapolis would be a close second, according to Alexander Metcalf, president of Transportation Economics and Management Systems, which is conducting the study.
“The big question is going to be, what does this (project) really mean on Main Street?” Metcalf asked.
“We know a large number of communities are going to feel the impact, because 80 percent of the population of all nine states will be living within an hour’s drive of a rail station.”
Indiana taxpayers, even those who support high-speed rail, may not like the idea of taking from a state budget that is already ailing.
“I think it’s great that governments are open to looking at new transportation options,” said Dave Reedy, a rail supporter who lives in Culver. “(The new fund) seems like a wonderful idea as long as this money doesn’t come from a tax increase.”
Roger Beaman of Indianapolis, who opposes plans for a local light-rail system, said he is not necessarily against a high-speed rail plan as long as it would be self-supporting and would not negatively affect communities. He, too, draws the line at higher taxes.
“If the state is proposing a half-cent increase for this, I would not be in favor,” he said. “We cannot keep increasing taxes every time we need money for a new need.”
High-speed rail supporters argue that if Indiana wants to be part of the Midwest rail plan, it must act now to begin the work needed to upgrade rail lines and stations.
Lots of luck. Indiana is a rural, conservative, and Republican state. Think Dan (Mr. Potatoe) Quayle. Only the northwest corner, tied to Chicago, thinks urban. NICTD (South Shore Line interurban) had an awful time getting a subsidy from the state legislature.
My initial reaction upon reading about plans for high-speed rail was "that'll never fly in Indiana". I have long experience with Indiana because portions of my family hail from there. As you point out, Indiana is an unlikely place to find support for high-speed rail. It is populist, right-wing, and anti-tax.
What is ironic is that the state is lobbying hard to build an interstate from Indianapolis to the south-east. Many people are on board, and large sections of the business community support it whole-hartedly, claiming that it will be good for the economy. Some have even made the improbable claim that building the interstate will help foster the growth of a high-tech center in Indiana (LOL). Here is a booster web site:
http://www.i-69forindiana.com/
Naturally, the eco-lobby is against it:
http://www.elpc.org/trans/I69/I69.htm
http://www.greenscissors.org/transportation/I-69.htm
It will be interesting to see if Hoosiers choose pay for a new highway *and* rail, or if (as I predict), they will build the road and kill the train. Or, most improbably, they kill the road and build the rail line. . . . .
(As you point out, Indiana is an unlikely place to find support for
high-speed rail. It is populist, right-wing, and anti-tax.)
Funny how "populist" and "anti-tax" now go together. Our elected officials, Republican and Democrats, have suceeded in making government so unfair, with so little to offer to most people, that even those in the lower half have turned against it.
"Funny how "populist" and "anti-tax" now go together."
Actually, they don't. It's easy for you to put the two together in a sentence, regardless of whether that reflects reality.
I think that is the inconsistency in modern political rhetoric that Larry was trying to point out.
Mark
I thought it was kind of strange that it was Indianapolis and Louisville that were mentioned. Just where is this line supposed to go? I would think connecting Indianapolis with Chicago would be a more logical.
Mark
Is the MWRRI even going anywhere yet, or is it still in the dreamy talk stage?
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
The doors to Amtrak’s station at White River Jct., Vermont are still open, and the trains are still running, but Bill Brigham, the 63-year-old stationmaster who did everything from planning passengers’ trips to making the morning coffee, was gone after the Vermonter pulled out of the station on September 27.
Amtrak eliminated the stationmaster positions at four Vermont stations, including the one in White River Jct., to try to save between $300,000 and $350,000, said Charlie Miller, director of rail with the Vermont DOT. The company made the layoffs a condition of the new contract with the state, which subsidized the jobs, according to the Valley News.
Ticket machines, which will cost the state $40,000 apiece, may be installed at the stations in about six months, said Miller. Until then, passengers must reserve tickets over the phone or online and buy them on the train.
The state had planned to put in the ticket machines eventually, but Amtrak’s decision was a surprise, said Miller. “This came up on us,” he said.
Brigham has worked for Amtrak for nearly 30 years, the last seven of which have been at the White River Jct. station.
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
Making good on its slogan “Moving Forward,” Sound Transit reported on Friday (September 27) its third Sounder commuter train between Seattle and Tacoma would start running on Monday at 6:30 a.m.
The trains operate over Burlington Northern & Santa Fe tracks.
Initially, the third morning train will leave the Tacoma Dome Station between the 6:15 a.m. and 6:45 a.m. trains. The new southbound train will leave Seattle’s King Street Station at 4:55 p.m., followed by the current 5:10 p.m. and 5:35 p.m. trains. The addition of the third train adds 38 percent capacity to the system.
Meanwhile, two final bus routes in ST Express will begin. The ST Express regional bus system is the first of Sound Transit’s three lines of business created by the 1996 Sound Move vote to reach completion.
In 1996 voters approved funding for Sound Transit to provide a regional system of transit improvements, including Sounder commuter rail, ST Express regional bus service, numerous capital improvements (including park-and-ride lots, transit centers and direct access ramps) and Link light rail.
Ticket machines, which will cost the state $40,000 apiece, may be installed at the stations in about six months, said Miller. Until then, passengers must reserve tickets over the phone or online and buy them on the train.
The state had planned to put in the ticket machines eventually, but Amtrak’s decision was a surprise, said Miller. “This came up on us,” he said.
Brigham has worked for Amtrak for nearly 30 years, the last seven of which have been at the White River Jct. station.
Vermont is showing all up!
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
Planned commuter train service between Essex and Burlington, Vermont is moving closer to being built. The project received a $4.8 million federal boost, Vermont Sens. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and James Jeffords (I-Vt.) said September 19.
The money will be used for engineering, and to buy the land and build the eight-mile rail line, The AP reported.
“It certainly gets us off and running with the preliminary engineering phase,” said Charlie Miller, rail division director at the state Agency of Transportation. Engineering and design work will take about a year, Miller said, and trains should be running by 2006. The entire project, including bus service to transport passengers to train stations, is expected to cost between $21 and $24 million, Miller said.
The Vermont Transportation Authority, which runs the Champlain Flyer, a commuter train between Charlotte and Burlington, would run the Essex line.
“The Champlain Flyer cannot survive with its present route,” said Jim Fitzgerald, commuter rail manager for the Vermont Transportation Authority.
“We just don’t travel far enough. This system has to grow. This would enable us to carry on and take our folks through Winooski, into Essex and IBM.” Leahy said the commuter train would alleviate traffic in populated parts of northwestern Vermont and also would provide transportation alternatives for IBM employees.
“Starting passenger rail from Essex to Burlington will give commuters along the crowded Route 15 corridor the opportunity to trade the headaches of traffic for the convenience of rail service,” said Leahy.
All the rail line and ballast will need to be replaced, according to William McNight, executive director for the Chittenden County Metropolitan Planning Organization. A deteriorating tunnel under North Avenue in Burlington also will require extensive work, Miller said.
The Essex line is one leg of a larger commuter rail service that state officials hope to extend south to Middlebury and from Essex Jct. to Montpelier. Officials also are considering linking Franklin County to Essex Jct. with an additional line. The Burlington-Essex service also would help connect Vermont to other rail service in the Northeast, Jeffords said.
“By improving this line, we will connect the two key branches of Vermont’s rail system, enabling passenger service to Burlington from throughout the state and the Northeast,” he said.
The Rutland Herald is online at http://www.rutlandherald.com/.
Text of Port Authority Press Release:
"Date: October 03, 2002
Press Release Number: 104-2002
The Port Authority’s PATH system – which continues to provide critical mass transit service between New York and New Jersey despite the loss of two of its primary terminals on September 11 – has been honored as the top rail system in the nation for 2001 by the American Public Transportation Association (APTA).
The Association honored PATH for outstanding performance in the categories of safety, customer service, financial management, marketing, policy and administration and community relations. PATH competed against the nation’s largest rail systems to win the award.
New York Governor George E. Pataki said, “I want to commend the hundreds of PATH employees who are among the many heroes of September 11. Not only did PATH employees help to evacuate thousands of people from the World Trade Center, but they also took action to stop trains bound for the Trade Center to prevent commuters from being put in harm’s way.”
New Jersey Governor James E. McGreevey said, “PATH employees have worked tirelessly since September 11 to restore critical transportation service, and it is gratifying that their dedication has been recognized by the American Public Transportation Association. The PATH system has always been one of the most important links between New York and New Jersey, impacting our economy and our quality of life.
Restoring the PATH service is a top priority as we work to rebuild and to revitalize Lower Manhattan and our entire region.”
Port Authority Chairman Jack G. Sinagra said, “The spirit of PATH employees has truly been phenomenal since September 11. The Board of Commissioners sincerely thanks all of them for their hard work and dedication, and wants them to know that the restoration of PATH’s downtown service is the agency’s top priority.”
Port Authority Vice Chairman Charles A. Gargano said, “New Yorkers clearly recognize that PATH is a key component in the revitalization of Lower Manhattan. We are extremely proud of the efforts of PATH staff to move quickly and efficiently to restore service to the World Trade Center site.”
Port Authority Executive Director Joseph J. Seymour said, “I congratulate all PATH employees for their hard work and dedication and am pleased they are being recognized at a national level for running a cost effective, customer-friendly service.”
APTA President William W. Millar said, “PATH has a solid record of commitment to customer service. On September 11, that commitment not only saved countless lives, but provided a lifeline for commuters to return safely to their communities. PATH’s record of achievement continues and APTA is proud to honor PATH and its employees with the transit industry’s highest award.”
Prior to September 11, 2001, PATH was on track to set new records in several key categories, including ridership, on-time performance and equipment reliability.
PATH staff prevented further casualties at the World Trade Center after the attacks. Moments after the first plane struck Tower One, PATH’s deputy director spoke to the PATH trainmaster, telling him to immediately stop all train service to the World Trade Center Station.
In the aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks, the World Trade Center Station was destroyed and the Exchange Place Station in Jersey City was severely damaged. Although PATH and other transportation facilities in the region were initially shut, the rail system was back in service shortly after 4 p.m. on September 11, providing modified service to patrons.
Since that time, PATH has operated a modified service that carries all New York-bound passengers to the uptown stations at Christopher Street, 9th Street, 14th Street, 23rd Street and 33 rd Street. A $544 million rebuilding effort is under way to restore the two tunnels leading into and out of the World Trade Center site – which were flooded after September 11 – as well as the Exchange Place Station and the World Trade Center station. Service is scheduled to resume to the Exchange Place Station by June 2003 and to the temporary station at the World Trade Center site by December 2003.
In the midst of the rebuilding efforts, PATH also introduced a unique train tracking system this year that provides customers with the status of the next train to arrive at their station. The information is provided on more than 100 PATHVision monitors that also provide passengers with news, weather, sports and other service information.
PATH staff also prepared plans to replace its aging fleet of rail cars, and its signal and fare collection systems.
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey operates some of the busiest and most important transportation links in the region. They include Kennedy International, Newark Liberty International, LaGuardia and Teterboro airports; the George Washington Bridge; the Lincoln and Holland tunnels; the three bridges between Staten Island and New Jersey; the PATH rapid-transit system; the Downtown Manhattan Heliport; Port Newark; the Elizabeth-Port Authority Marine Terminal; the Howland Hook Marine Terminal on Staten Island; the Brooklyn Piers/Red Hook Container Terminal; and the Port Authority Bus Terminal in midtown Manhattan. The agency is financially self-supporting and receives no tax revenue from either state."
Two of its primary terminals? What's the second? (Exchange Place isn't a terminal, let alone a primary one.)
Unless they mean that temporarily they shut down service to 33rd St.
Also, was Exchange Place really "heavily" damaged? They're doing major work to make it a terminal station now, but I hadn't heard that the flooding went as far west as Exchange Place.
Exchange Place is downhill from the former WTC station, though not the low point in the tunnel (that's under the river).
Any word on the new fleet of Path Cars?? You would think that they would want to have something to show off when they finally open the line. I know trains can't be built in one year though. Does anyone have any designs or pics of what the new car would look like?
i guess Coney island is giving Jamaica R32s. I rode 3862 yesterday, then i just realized. THAT WAS A FORMER N TRAIN! I have pictures of it on the N, not to mention i rode it as a Manhattan bound N before the W came along. train hit 65mph!
You haven't been paying attention lately have you? [If it's because you've been working hard, then you're forgiven].
When ENY gets a 143 order, they ship a 40M consist to CI. In turn, CI sends an R32 consist to JYD to make up for a car shortage.
Also, Jamaica Yard may release its Phase I R32s back to Pitkin Yard for car shortage.
Chaohwa
yea i need to be forgiven. ima overnight Custodian at Grand Central for MTA Metro North. I work 11pm-7am
I am trying to get directions from 321 West 125 Street, NYC to 21 Bloomingdale Rd. White Plains via Subway and bus
Call 718-330-1234
Easiest way: Any 125 St crosstown bus to Park Av, then Metro-North (Harlem Line) to White Plains.
Railfan/El cheapo way:
1) Uptown B or D train from 125 St/St. Nicholas Av to Bedford Park Blvd., Bronx.
-transfer-
2) Bee-line #20 or #21 bus to White Plains.
Metrocards and Metrocard transfers are NOT ACCEPTED on Bee-line buses. You'll have to pay another fare.
hey guys just letting you know DIRECTLY from a fellow LIRR engineer, that classes for Locomotive Engineer are beginning probably by january or febuary of 2003. ANYONE who thinks they want to apply, START APPLYING NOW!!!!! NOT NOW BUT RIGHT NOW! i am expecting to be called myself. good luck to you all!
Just for the curious:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nysex032949735oct03,0,6038603.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dreddots%2Dheadlines
I guess now that O & A are off the air I might as well UN-pre-set my car radio to WNEW. It was fun while it lasted!!
I stopped shortly after the good people disappered. O & A and Ferrall. I miss them so much. Now it's nothing more but Ron and Fez. The station has gone off the deep end for sure.
Jeff, don't tune out 102.7! There's still hope with Ron and Fez! Have you listened to those guys? They're as funny as O & A, although not as risque...
(I'm a Ron n' Fez 'Big Ass Card' holder so giving them a plug was in order...)
Can I still keep my WOW sticker?
For sure! O & A were friends of Ron 'n Fez...
You know, they weren't fired for the stunt, nor the aftermath of it. The only reason they were fired was because the advertisers started dropping their ads. If that didn't happen, they'd still be on the air.
Rumor has them popping up on XM radio. Probably the only thing that'll get me to buy it...maybe.
-Hank
Six times, three hours!? Some should give Bryan a gold medal for doing all that. :-)
Someone oughta introduce the LIRR trio to this couple :)
Yeah, baby!
--Mark
Last march I ventured out to arlington yard and howland hook to see what the condition of the 1990 refurbished yard was like. I posted some pictures online at http://www.nyrail.org/nyct/sir/sirt-arlington/, but I have not officially created an organized page for them. But check them out anyway.
Now posting from Rochester, NY,
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Thank you for the pics.
Why is the SIR connection to the yard still there? They dont need it. Also how was your trip? Is the yard off-limits?
The SIR ROW still exists (meaning not filled in or demolished) all the way to Port Richmond. From Port Richmond to St. George, the ROW is mainly either demolished, filled in or built and paved upon. Some parts, like by Snug Harbor, some tracks can still be found, but they are short segments. In a nutshell, there is NO connection to the SIR via north shore.
My trip went well. Arlington is a rough neighborhood, so I kept my digital camera out of view. The tracks are frequently crossed by residents as a shortcut so they don't have to walk all the way to the bridge. I just walked along the tracks west to AK-1 bridge. There were no "prpoerty of.." signs and no "no trespassing" signs. The yard is empty and devoid of all people including security. Howland Hook container port has a lot of security though.
I think bus S44 goes there from St. George.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Refurbished? I hardly think what's in yourpicture counts as refurbished.
The bridge approach and yard was refurbished by the city of new york in 1990 for an expected growth of use of the line to jersey by conrail. Take a look at some of the yard tracks. They are in very good condition--ties not rotted, track aligned well, no large gaps at rail joints, longitudinal stabiliters on every other tie, tamped ballast. That's not the track you'd find on a normally abandoned line of 40 years.
-Dan
OK, gotcha.
Later, around 1999, actually. Service didn't end on the line until 1993.
The line isn't 'built on' beyond Port Richmond, and only the section from Jersey St to Ballpark station was demolished. Much of the ROW runs through private property, and it's been encroached upon by easily movable things, such as a large pile of salt. Between Atlantic Salt and Snug Harbor, much of the ROW has washed away, leaving rails and ties hanging in mid-air. Beyond Snug Harbor to the begining of the viaduct near Port Richmond, the ROW runs through a number of shipyards, all of which have placed material and such on the ROW. The entire ROW on Staten Island is owned by the NYC Economic Development Corporation, and money has been allocated to shore up what remains and study restoring service to the St. George area to a possible new float bridge to connect to the 65th Street yard in Brooklyn.
-Hank
TSTC says: "The Port Authority is also a month away from completing a feasibility study for using tracks between Port Richmond and the St. George Ferry Terminal for passenger rail service along the North Shore. Passenger rail was suspended on the line in 1953.The main obstacle to passenger service is the dismal condition of the tracks, which could cost up to $200 million to fix, and the relatively low settlement densities along the corridor." Click here for the complete article.
The route of the North Shore tracks is one of the main impedements to getting it re-established. Just as the current SIRT at Thompkinsville, Stapleton and Clifton can draw passengers from only one direction because it was built next to the shoreline, the North Shore route also can only draw passengers from one direction from St. George to Port Richmond because of its placement.
It would be tough enough to rebuild the line now along its former path, let alone relocate it away from the shore. If they ever did do it though, the route's terminus west (or south) of Port Richmond and how many passengers it could draw from those areas would determine whether or not restoration was viable.
How about building a concrete el structure similar to the 7 Queens Blvd viaduct above Richmond Terrace?
Thr problem isn't with the line being above or below Richmond Terrace, the problem is only boat yards are north (or west) of most of Richmond Terrace, which limits the number of passengers it could attract to only one directon; south and/or east of the line.
Part of its viability would rest on setting up Park N Ride lots and using feeder buses. Current bus routes would be realigned to take people to SIRT stations. Bus service in the same direction and very close to the North Shore line would be curtailed or eliminated.
I suppose you could run bus service towards the North Shore line stations, instead of towards St. George. The question would be whether or not this was faster than direct bus service to the ferry terminal, and I suspect the answer would be for most passengers north of Richmond Ave., "No."
What kind of passenger service? Has anyone ever considered running the PATH through Newark Airport, into Port Elizabeth and over the Arthur Kill?.
"Has anyone ever considered running the PATH through Newark Airport, into Port Elizabeth and over the Arthur Kill?. "
The Port Authority is studying an extension of PATH along the NEC ROW to the Newark Airport Rail Station.
Relatively low? Ever ride a bus along Richmond Terrace during rush hour? Rail service would be a dramatic improvement.
-Hank
Nice photos. BTW, where is your website hosted? The connection is really fast!
---Brian
soniqhost.com hosts nyrail.org
-Dan
I have to admit, these are excellent photos. Those close-ups of the bridge are awesome. It's a shame this section of railroad is not being used by any rail carrier. I find it wild, not finding any caution signs on the bridge. I wonder if the bridge is functional at all? If business is starting to boom at Howland Hook, maybe CSX, what's left of ConRail, Norfolk Southern, or Morristown and Erie can revive freight service on this line.
There is already talks going on about the future usage of the Arlington Yard and the Howland Hook Marine Terminal. Good word is that CSXT, NS and Conrail Shared Assets are being considered as candidates for the reopening of the yard and the rail line, to establish intermodal rail service between NY and NJ, and the area ports, but no plans have been finalized yet. The line is in fairly good shape, giving it hasn't been used in a while, though if any final plans are made to reopen the line to freight traffic, there will still need to be upgrades, such as an improved signal system, overhauls for AK Drawbridge (mechanical apparatus for the lift pulleys), newer trackage (sure the tracks appear in good shape, but never forget how long they been disused, and might not hold up well to the stresses of frequent train traffic, and heavier trains) and the biggest challenge (money-wise) is in NJ, where the west approach to AK needs to be rebuilt completely, giving the wooden structure is nowhere near good enough to hold up heavy trains and is in quite a bit of disrepair. Also Conrail Shared Assets, along with CSXT want to build a multi-million dollar rail connection from the SIR line to CR Chemical Coast Secondary line, and NJ State DOT has to make a decision to fund the building of the rail connection, and who will ultimately operate it. If this the line and connections are ever built, they are also considering tying this line into the future Cross Harbor Rail Tunnel line whenever plans come forth to build the tunnel from Greenville N.J. to Bay Ridge. We'll see what comes of everything once all the political and monetary squabbling is done. As for the pictures, thanks!!
If the Arlington Yard is rebuilt and reopened, How much more truck traffic would there be on the Verrazano Bridge? Probably there would be less traffic along Canal St from Holland Tunnel to Manhattan Bridge. But how much would be going across the Verrazano? And would the Brooklyn side be able to handle the traffic?
None. The object is to removetrucks from the Goethals Bridge. Currently containers to and from the port come from the railheads in New Jersey. Once the line is connected to the national network, those truck shuttles cease. The only traffic that will arrive and depart the terminal by truck will be bound for local destinations.
-Hank
You wouldn't happen to have any pics with the bridge in the lowered position, would you? I have seen that bridge in the raised position since I was a kid. I'm curious to see what it looks like.
I've seen it down, but it was when I was much younger and didn't have a camera. I've NEVER seen a train cross it, nor have I ever seen a freight train on Staten Island at all.
-Hank
I've seen some abandoned freight cars on SI when I was young (like 12 years ago). Spome old rotting boxcars and flatcars were lying around the tracks near St. George until the new parking lot was built around 1994.
-Dan
Norfolk Southern has been designated operator of the line, but it will take nearly a year to build a connection to the Chemical Coast line. The Port Authority is responsible for the connection on the New Jersey side. The bridge has been fully rehabbed, and is perfectly functional as of October 2000.
The booming business at Howland Hook was the final push to get the line finished. It is expected the line will see 7 to 10 trains a day by 2007, but I expect to see that kind of traffic by 2005.
-Hank
Would this renassance become the catalyst for the eventual construction of a frieght rail tunnel between New Jersey and New York, or even Staten Island and Brooklyn? O, the power of money!
Dan, Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed your photos very much.
Mr t
Subtalk has discussed several times the logistics of the #4 Yankee post-game specials. My question is, does the D train run similar specials? And if so, how do they operate? How many are run, and where do they lay up while waiting for the game to end?
Yes.
Not sure what you mean
Depends on the how many people are at the game.
Uptown.
>>>>>>>Does the D train run similar specials? And if so, how do they operate?
In service from 161 St to 34 St. Under the old service pattern, they ran all the way to Coney Island.
In both cases, after completion, the train returns without passengers to Concourse Yard.
>>>>>>How many are run?
Depends on the expected crowd at Yankee Stadium. The maximum for say a World Series game is 4.
>>>>>>>>And where do they lay up while waiting for the game to end?
They stay at Concourse Yard up until about the 7th inning, then they deadhead to 167 St middle track and wait for further instructions.
Four trains for a playoff game! The #4 uses 6-10 trains for the playoff and/or when the Mets come to the Stadium. Then again you got to whisk away the UESiders and people going to GCT.
Perhaps more people want the #4.......a full length 600' D train can fit a hell of a lot more people than a #4 train with 510' of train.
Yeah. The #4 is the official train of the New York Yankees. During the Subway Series, it was the #7 vs. #4. D train did not fit into the picture at all.
Subbus is right though about UESiders. They're huge Yankee fans. Yuppies love the Yankees. The Yankees, and George Steinbrenner represent everything the UESide is about.
And I bet when the Yanks start to suck again, they won't be going to the games anymore.
And I believe under the old plan that these specials ran express down the Brighton Line to Coney Island.
--Mark
Nope, they made all local stops under the old plan.
And they better win Saturday because I have an RDO with baseball special #4 on Sunday!
Well they didn't win. They got their asses kicked in good by our California boys. I was there cheering the Anaheim Angels and ripping into that greedy money grubber Giambi and that pathetic excuse for a clutch hitter Mondesi. The crowd was loud, vocal and enthusiastic and I hope the Bronx Bumblers have a nice trip home. Hey Steinbrenner, wait 'till next year. Ha ha ha!!!!!!!!
You should be stripped of your SubTalk posting privileges, you poor excuse for an ex-New Yorker.
Hey Steve, you're right on one thing. I am an EX-New Yorker because I am a Californian, have been for 48 years. Doesn't mean I diss New York because I don't. It's the greatest city in the world in my book and I am looking forward to my visit next week, and have been exited about it for six months. But the Yankees are another story. It's been an antagonistic hatred for that team since I was seven years old. But to lose my posting privileges because of that? Oh, no. That would be worse than exile on Devils Island. Being on this board is one of my real pleasures in life. Please don't suggest things so drastic as that. You're hitting me below the belt.
OK..Yankee haters...Yankees lovers...can we all agree on one thing?
NO MORE F&^%$#*&@ TOMAHAWK CHOP CRAP!!!
Jeez I hope Atlanta loses.
Beware... there are Braves fans here too :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nah, Ted Turner SOLD Hotlanta to Stevie Case and AOL. Nobody CARES about the Braves, aside from "what R U wearing?" (standard AOL answer to da question is "a black teddy of course." INCLUDING the damned team) Yeah, John Rocker ... SCREW the #7 train ... come ride the BEAST! :)
MP: We can all agree on that one. Let me give you an example. In 1996 and 1999 the Yankees played the Braves in the World Series. You know how much I hate the Yankees, right? I rooted for them in both Series. Can you guess what I think of the Braves? Yes, I dislike that team more than any other.
It was kind of interesting, too, to see those shots of supposedly left-wing Jane Fonda doing the Tomahawk chop, and she and hubbie Ted both dozing off in the stands. Almost makes the sight of a fat, shirtless guy with a spray-painted body look classy by comparison.
MP: Why ruin a good weekendby mentioning those two worthless human beings?
For the play-offs, we use 4 or 5 trains. They are staged north of 161 St. and will run to 34th St (or W4th St) and then light back to Concourse yard. Most often, B trains, scheduled for lay-up are used as baseball specials. In addition, spare (gap) trains are kept in the ready at Concourse yard.
Do any post-Yankee game trains, either the specials or the regular D trains, run local on CPW? While most passengers are probably going to 59th or beyond, I'm sure there's some demand for local service, more than during an average evening or weekday.
You have the B train running local down CPW so the D would be redundant. Northbound, if a day game ends during the PM rush, D express trains will be sent up the local tracks.
After rush hours, the B terminates at 145th. If both the specials and the regular D trains run express, there's no direct access from the stadium to CPW local stations. (I'm assuming all games end after rush hour.)
Instead of having D specials, maybe it would make more sense to have B specials -- special in that they enter service at 161st rather than 145th.
Dave, don't fret about that small stuff now. You're boys are as dead as the Pharoahs.
I don't know about the D, but I did get a #4 Yankee special downtown after the game. The train was completely empty until everyone got on, of course. -Nick
I don't know what the current put-in procedures are regarding post-game "D" service; back in 1969 (July 20, 1969) we were treated to a "D" put-in after the Bat Day win over Washington - and it was a brand-spanking-new and ICE COLD R42, with its huge orange "D" sign lit up like a halloween pumpkin - and they left the a/c cranking during the wait, the windows were fogged up so bad we couldnt see in, and it was as cold as a walk-in fridge. Our car, #4654, transferred to "B" service later in the year once the 4700-series cars began to arrive.
wayne
On July 20, 1969, I was on a weekend pass from the National Guard's Summer Camp and attended the Dodgers-Giants game at Candlestick Park. Somewhere in the third or fourth inning the announcer said we had successfully landed on the Moon. Right after that Willie McCovey, that year's MVP, his a prodigious three run homer to ice the game.
Yes, they stopped the Yankee game at 4:16PM to announce the Moon landing, and they played the National Anthem as well. Yankee HRs that day came from Bobby Murcer (to RF) and Ron Woods (to LF). Frank Howard hit one for Wash.
wayne
July 20, 1969 wasn't terribly hot, IIRC. We went up to Putnam, CT to visit my sister who was at the summer girl's camp they used to have at the IC convent. They had a TV set up and we watched the moon landing there.
The Mets split a twin bill with Expos that day and went into the All Star break with a 53-39 record.
It was cloudy and muggy. Might have been 80 or so. Down in the subway it was hotter.
wayne
It was clear and mild in San Francisco, about 71 degrees as I remember hearing them say before the game. There were white puffy clouds in the sky and a nice breeze. All together a fine day. 1969 was a pretty good year as I got engaged to my wife and was finishing by first full year of teaching. That plus it was the last National Guard Summer Camp I had to attend.
We ALMOST got to Woodstock that year, I went with the older brother of a neighborhood friend, along with a half-dozen or so assorted other folks, we got about 7 miles from the site and bogged down in traffic, rain, mud and beer.
wayne
I went into the city on that Sunday, August 17. My cousins were visiting us and my aunt drove us to Battery Park and dropped us off. We went out to the Statue and climbed to the top; it was brutally hot during that long climb. After that it was off to the Empire State Building. And to top it off, I took them on a CPW express joyride on an A train. Then our bus had an accident on the way home.
1969 was a great year for the Mets and their fans. I remember it well.
I'll bet it felt great on that air-conditioned train.
According to Rail Travel News #649 just delivered today, a contributor noted he saw on a flatbed truck on I-81 going north from Scranton to Binghamton a subway car #215 mounted on its trucks with blue and white painted ends, but no other name.
Could that be the R44 that in the Bronx stripped for fire-fighter training ?
Maybe, then again, maybe starting a new life as a roadside hot dog stand !
Don't laugh, a SEPTA Broad St. subway car was a roadside hotdog stand in Connecticut. I think it was moved elsewhere in the Nutmeg State.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was at Forest Hills station today. The train arrived westbound about 1:20, and returned eastbound about 2:00. Is this the usual test schedule? I want to go back tomorrow.
I saw the M-7's going eastbound and stopping at Copiague station. Simulated stop, opening the doors on the other side. The eastbound one was about 12:20PM and westbound at 12:45PM. This was today (10/3).
Bill "Newkirk"
Saw that same train eastbound at Rockville Centre at 11:45.
Also, again eastbound on the express track through Forest Hills at about 10:50 this evening.
This is different from the schedule that they were following last week, but Bill "Newkirk"'s and Robert from Queens' observations are consistent with others that I've seen this week. It seems that they are changing the schedule weekly, so it's a pretty good bet that the train will be in the same places at those times tomorrow but on a different schedule next week.
CG
Read all about me here!
DAMN! Hyperlink didn't work ... I'll try again soon - I'm getting kicked out of the school library now... stay tuned.
here!
jersey - you need to put a space in between the "A" and the "HREF", you almost had it
I was working over at JFK Cargo area today, saw the remains of the fatal AirTrain wreck on the el over by the Federal Circle Amoco. Driving home, I had a scary thought:
There are two curves with high speed straights at either end of the elevated over the Van Wyck. If a train derailing in those curves hit those concrete sidewalls and ripped them off the structure, just like they did at Federal Circle, those concrete chunks WOULD BE FALLING ON TRAFFIC BELOW!!
Probably before the line opens, there will be a permanent slow speed order at both locations.
Isn't the train automatic anyway?? I think the driver was just testing the train out. Once the service starts computers will run the train ???
There are many of these setups on subways all over the country, how often do you see wrecks on them?
That's a scary thought all right. One of the tv news reports on the day of the accident mentioned that if the accident had happened a short distance further north, the concrete blocks would have fallen onto the Van Wyck.
As Douce Man said, trains will likely be slowed down at those curves, and anywhere else where it is deemed necessary. There's really nothing to worry about....the trains will be automated, and nothing can go wrong...go wrong...go wrong...go wrong...
Anybody remember the old movie "WestWorld"?
:-)
G1RD
That was a cool movie, but in no way related to this discussion.
Computers do fail. Programs have bugs. etc
Well, yes, but West World was not really about computers and programs having bugs. It was an essay on the dangers of technology to society, in the same vein as movies which depict cyborgs rebelling and turning on their human masters etc.
Have you read Asimov's "I, Robot?"
Yes. A long time ago.
Jesus Christ, if you're that paranoid, like half the people on this board, please turn off your computer and head for the nearest Amish or Luddite settlement.
The simple fact is people movers are pretty much the most reliable transit systems in the world. The Westinghouse/ADtranz system has a 99.9% reliabilty rate (according to their now gone web site), far better than any human operated subway. Do you think that humans DON'T fail? Computers fail only when you run Windows :-) Give me one automated train crash, and I'll give you two or more human operated crashes. Computer operated transit is commonplace in most of the world, including sysytems older and more intensely used than NYCT. As to why NYC can't get their act together with this well-proven concept is beyond me.
Washington Metrorail runs on computers. So do most airplanes (flight engineers are a disappearing breed). Soi do spacecraft, and submarines. Car engines depend on microprocessors. Should we worry about that as we're going 65 mph down the expressway? Modern X-ray equipment depends on computer controls, and so does food and medicine manufacturing.
>>> Washington Metrorail runs on computers. So do most airplanes (flight engineers are a disappearing breed). <<<
I do not fly enough to know if it is now in common use, but back in the late ‘60s I remember landing at Heathrow on a KLM air liner that was being guided by computer to land with the pilots just monitoring the controls. The noises were a bit upsetting, because the trim controls were changing every second causing the sound of hydraulics almost continuously, but we had been informed by the flight attendants that these sounds were normal. The landing was as smooth as any I have ever experienced. Supposedly the system could allow a plane to land successfully in zero visibility. I guess that would have been an application where "the blue screen of death" would truly signal a fatal error.
Tom
Such systems are now available for most passenger jets, and indeed a similar system, called CAINS, is available to guide a naval aircraft to a perfect "three-wire" landing on an aircraft carrier.
Most pilots do not want to use such systems, because they claim it will dull their senses and encourage their skills to atrophy.
Is it theoretically possible right now to fly a plane from take off to landing with no pilot?
Yes. Boeing and Airbus have developed such systems. At the moment, all the pilots are really responsible for is takeoffs and landings. The computers do the rest.
-Hank
"At the moment, all the pilots are really responsible for is takeoffs and landings. The computers do the rest."
How does the computer receive the air traffic controller's request to make a turn? Do the controller's instructions get sent via a digital signal as well as by voice?
"How does the computer receive the air traffic controller's request to make a turn? Do the controller's instructions get sent via a digital signal as well as by voice?"
No. The autopilot can execute a takeoff (infrequently used) - it then can be set to fly at a particular altitude and speed, and can be programmed to aim for a waypoint (VOR - omnidirectional radio beacon). When the airplane reaches that waypoint, the autopilot aims the airplane for the next waypoint.
Air traffic control instructions received by the pilot require manual pilot input.
There is software which will fly a plane by remote control, but this is not used in commercial aviation.
There is software which will fly a plane by remote control, but this is not used in commercial aviation.
There was some media and industry discussion about installation of such systems in the immediate post-9/11 period, when fears were at their highest. As far as I know, the discussions gradually faded away even though the systems would be technically possible to implement - at, needless to say, massive cost.
The system is in use with the military (pilotless drones), and the FAA has used it to do things like fly a 707 by remote control into pylons to test the fuel system's propensity to start a fire. Older military aircraft, like the F-102 Delta Dart, were modified into pilotless target drones (operated by autopilot) for live air-to-air and surface-to-air missile tests.
Actually, the computers can do the take-offs and landings too. The pilots dont want them too, though. I can understand why.
Heck, the military has had drones for the past 90 or so years, going back to the Doodlebugs if I remember the name correctly. Today we have stuff like the RQ-1 Predator, the CIA's GNAT 750 and the U-2 replacing RQ-4 Global Hawk that are pilotless, and, in the case of the RQ-4 highly automated. Right now a guy in a monitor filled building nearby the runway does the climb up and let dowm, all the flight other than that is wholey automated. The computer recives a set of coordinates telling it to go halfway around the globe, it goes, checks it out, relays to a satellite all that it sees, and should it survive, turns and heads back to the US, finally, some 36 or so hours later, it comes under remote control for the last portion. And never a Francis Gary Powers in danger, with a much cheaper airframe, nor countrys to sweet talk or place at risk, cause it takes off from american soil, and lands on american soil.
I think the big sticking points with automatic landing systems is getting the plane down in poor weather. How do you teach a computer to crab into the wind and to pull it out at just the right moment? A computer may be able to do it on a sunny day with a nice breeze right down the centerline of the runway, but then again, so can I. Just pull out of the down wind, start the decent, line up the ILS if you are using (so far I haven't outside simulators), check the VASI, if any, and just float her over the lines. If you have control of the plane, take off and landing are the most nervous, and yet, strangely, the most fun parts of any flight. But toss in a driving rain, crosswinds of maybe 15-20 mph, and a ceiling of 2000' and you are talking a whole new ballgame here, most pilots wouldn't be able to deal with that, and I suspect that many computers would just end up backlogged, overfilled with stuff going on.
"Car engines depend on microprocessors."
Not a good example. Last year I was driving along a desolate country road at midnight when my car's engine just stopped. A microprocessor had failed, and the mechanic says it happens all the time.
I do believe that computer hardware and software can be made safer than humans, but it takes extensive and well-planned testing.
Given how technologically oriented many people on this board are, I've personally been amazed at the percentage of people posting here who seem to believe that NYCT will never get CBTC to work.
If it happened all the time, with millions of cars on the road, don't you think you'd see a LOT more breakdowns?
Obviously, it DOESN'T happen all the time.
-Hank
"Obviously, it DOESN'T happen all the time."
"It happens all the time" is a colloquial expression that means "I see this kind of situation frequently."
True, but it says nothing about the frequency of the problem occurring among the brand's population. So you don't really know just how likely a particular car will fail due to that reason. If the car fails, the mechanic can probably tell you what proportion of failures are due to any particular reason.
"So you don't really know just how likely a particular car will fail due to that reason."
You're absolutely right. But you wouldn't want the mechanics who fix the L train's CBTC system to be saying "that piece of software fails all the time" when that is a piece of software that is required for forward motion of the train.
If CBTC trains are only as reliable as autos, people will get pretty upset. But they can be made much more reliable, with proper testing.
"You're absolutely right. But you wouldn't want the mechanics who fix the L train's CBTC system to be saying "that piece of software fails all the time" when that is a piece of software that is required for forward motion of the train."
No, you're not there yet. Even if failures are very rare, chances are one type of failure may outnumber others in total incidence. That by itself means very little.
What you really want to ask is:
1) What is the safety-critical failure rate? Is it above a threshold we determine to be unacceptable?
2) What, in descending order, are the most common failure modes? Are they related or independent?
3) How do we address each failure mode? Are any inherent in the design?
"Not a good example. Last year I was driving along a desolate country road at midnight when my car's engine just stopped. A microprocessor had failed, and the mechanic says it happens all the time."
Your reasoning is faulty.
The mechanic says so because he/she works with those problems every day. The mechanic may be very good about knowing what proportion of problems are due to microprocessor failure, but probably does not know the rate of failure of microprocessors in cars per se (meaning, the denominator if the numerator is failed microprocessors of cars brand whatever).
You may be confusing one with the other.
In any case, of COURSE the mechanic sees broken cars all the time. That's why mechanics exist - to fix broken cars. That said, they do have their favorites, but I'd be worried if a mechanic wasn't seeing lots of broken cars...
"That said, they do have their favorites, but I'd be worried if a mechanic wasn't seeing lots of broken cars..."
Oh, come now, Philip. You don't believe in the legend of the Maytag repairman?
:0)
My parents bought Maytag washer and dryer a few months back. They just had the agitator drive assembly replaced on the washer.
-Hank
That's unusual, especially for that part. I have a top-loading Maytag washer at our house in North Carolina that has run for over sixteen years, including daily loads of diapers when it was new, that has never needed a repair, and I've got a Maytag Neptune front-loading washer and dryer at our house in New Jersey, now almost five years old, that has needed one repair, covered under warranty (modern electronic controls that sense the water level... the electronic circuit board decided the washer was full of water as soon as the first drop came in).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Given how technologically oriented many people on this board are, I've personally been amazed at the percentage of people posting here who seem to believe that NYCT will never get CBTC to work.
I'd chalk it up to a lack of faith in NYCT's ability to innovate.
Computer operated transit is commonplace in most of the world, including sysytems older and more intensely used than NYCT. As to why NYC can't get their act together with this well-proven concept is beyond me.
Welcome to New York - the city where "progress" is a four-letter word.
The first automated airport system in the U.S. debuted with the opening of the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport in 1974 -- before the R-46 cars were ever delivered to NYCTA. It had bugs of its own, like the car and platform doors not aligning at the station (personal experience taking here), but those bugs have been worked out now, and the system will be starting its fourth decade of operation two years from now.
So the JFK AirTrain system is about to it what the IND Eighth Ave. line was to Contract 1 on the IRT when it opened in 1932 -- there may be some newer technology involved, but the concept of ZPTO itself has been in practice for a generation.
I'm sure the DFW system is pretty safe and reliable, but about 15 years ago I was on it and it came to a switch and took 15 minutes to decide whether it wanted to go right or left. I almost missed my connecting flight.
No suprise there. It got so bad in the early 1980s that some of the rental car companies gave up on it, and went back to van service from their lots to the various terminals in order to avoid having people miss their flights (D-FW has seperate terminals like JFK but is the freakin' size of Manhattan, so a screw up back then by the tram could mean a 30-45 minute delay in getting back to the proper terminal). It's better now, but there may still be an occassional screw-up.
The first automated airport system in the U.S. debuted with the opening of the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport in 1974 -- before the R-46 cars were ever delivered to NYCTA. It had bugs of its own, like the car and platform doors not aligning at the station (personal experience talking here), but those bugs have been worked out now, and the system will be starting its fourth decade of operation two years from now.
So the JFK AirTrain system is about to it what the IND Eighth Ave. line was to Contract 1 on the IRT when it opened in 1932 -- there may be some newer technology involved, but the concept of ZPTO itself has been in practice for a generation.
Computer operated transit is commonplace in most of the world, including sysytems older and more intensely used than NYCT
Name one.
I can name 48 of them that have a higher ridership intensity, but I'd rather just link to this list.
I ones I can think of off the top of my head about which ones are computer controlled in the above 48, there is:
Hong Kong
Sao Paulo
Tokyo
Mexico City
Paris and London are older, and they both have portions which are computer controlled. And almost every subway in the world no longer has or ever had the 100 year old block signaling technology NYCT uses, I don't believe any subway built before 1900 still has them (maybe Boston still does? How about PATH?) which means that NYCT probably has the lowest amount of computer operation in the world. Pathetic for such a large system.
That's all I can of think of right now, but more it's more than the one you requested.
That ridership intensity metric is biased against systems with express service.
AFAIK, the oldest computer-controlled section of the London Underground is the Victoria line, built in the 60's or 70's. I don't know about Paris.
Are you sure? According to this (I believe the poster is a Subtalker) NYCT has 328 double track miles. Multiply 328 by 5.0 (from the table), and you get 1.624 billion riders. This matches up exactly with the APTA 1999 ridership. WMATA matches up with their 1999 ridership also. Therefore, I think they took express tracks into account.
No, what I'm suggesting is that the presence of express tracks encourages longer rides. (So does a uniform, distance-independent fare.) If New Yorkers take longer rides than average, then their ridership intensity (passengers per line mile) is naturally going to be relatively low.
I understand where you're coming from, but that table is all that I could find :-)
But...every system has different average distances between stations and peculiar things that make it hard to have a uniform measurement. Let's say we use passengers per station, how would you count the number of stations on a line? Would you count the number of physical stations, or count seperately the stops the locals and expresses make? It wouldn't be fair to cont express statinos twice, because it will lower the intentisy. If we count the phyiscal stations, then it wouldn't reflect the expresses skipping some stops.
I think the passengers per mile is the "best" we have because it takes into account how spread out passengers are in a system.
BART has an average distance of 2.5 miles per station, so they end up with a low intensity count. They can afford to run multiple trains between two stations and not have crowded trains. If BART's average distance became .6 miles, you wouldn't be able run several trains between two stations, so you'll get more crowding with the same number of people, thus more intensity.
Seeing it the other way, Sao Paulo, the #2 system, has an average distance of .6 miles between each station. This is a very dense station network. They run a whopping 98 trains over 30 route miles. That is about two trains bewteen each station (.3 miles apart!). If the stations were 2.5 miles apart, they would be able to run four times as many trains, which will cause the number of people per train to lower, and make for a lower intensity. Or if they kept the same number of trains, the headway frequency will lower and that too causes less intensity.
Paris and London are older, and they both have portions which are computer controlled...
Right. According to your own table, London has less ridership "intensity", and Paris is more intense but it isn't computer controlled. Of course, there are lines on the Paris Metro that have more advanced signalling than NYCTA, but they are not "computer controlled". The only real systems that are "computer controlled" are systems like BART and WMATA (Isn't it true that on WMATA that the operator still has to manualize?) That kind of computer control simply will not work on complex system with historical quirks and constraints like the NYCTA.
I have experience dealing with IECC type installations. They are a pain in the ass. They are probably not what you want for the NYCTA except perhaps on isolated lines where the operation is very simple.
AEM7
We have four such lines: the two shuttles (Franklin Av and 42nd St), and the 7 IRT and L BMT lines. Aditionally, certain portions of other lines are simple (the Bronx portion of the 4 line not counting special baseball game service, and the G train in the part of the route it travels all by itself.
Assuming normal operation, the 1/9 and the 6 are kept isolated as well, except late nights, when the 2 and 4 also run local. OTOH, assuming normal operation is a big mistake.
Paris is more intense but it isn't computer controlled. Of course, there are lines on the Paris Metro
The Meteor Line (14) is completely computer controlled.
Jesus Christ, if you're that paranoid, like half the people on this board, please turn off your computer and head for the nearest Amish or Luddite settlement
I'm not paranoid. Computers (and there parts)are designed by humans. Were not perfect (and can't be). It is human nature to demand perfection from everyone else but say it is OK for us to make the occasional mistake.
Remember when Intel had a flaw in one of there chips. It would only appear in a very tiny percentage of situations but it did happen.
The WAMTA crash a few years ago. It was determined that if a train overshot the station that it could receive a full speed signal instead of a restricted speed signal.
Recently a satellite was lost because the program was in metric and a command in inches was transmitted (or vice versa).
All I was trying to say was that computers are not perfect 100% of the time.
And just for the record - I work with computers !!!
Of course computers aren't perfect 100% of the time. There is nothing on earth that is 100% perfect, except the laws of physics.
And for more irony, I kind of sick of working with computers! But that's why there are people like you to do that stuff for me :-)
"There is nothing on earth that is 100% perfect, except the laws of physics."
But I'd sure like the software that runs a plane or a CBTC system to fail catastrophically once per trillion vehicle miles rather than once per million vehicle miles. (I suppose the actual acceptable failure rate is somewhere in between).
Recently a satellite was lost because the program was in metric and a command in inches was transmitted (or vice versa).
All I was trying to say was that computers are not perfect 100% of the time.
I'd call that satellite incident a prime example of human error.
Indeed it was. A space probe lost decades ago was set off course by the presence of a comma in place of a semicolon in a Fortran program. The program was written by humans and had not been fully debugged by humans.
A space probe lost decades ago was set off course by the presence of a comma in place of a semicolon in a Fortran program.
semicolons are not used in FORTRAN. It should have been a period. It was the start of a DO loop; the statement should have been something like:
DO 100 I=1,10
and turned out to be:
DO 100 I=1.10
FORTRAN compilers removed all embedded spaces after column 6 on the instruction line. It compiled the bad statement as a variable assignment:
DO10I = 1.10
Thank you, Stephen. I was never a FORTRAN programmer, and so the story lost a little in translation for me.
When I did it for a living years ago, I used primarily COBOL, CLists, Job Control Language, IBM Basic and C.
One thing that was done in subsequent languages was to require that variables had to be declared before they could be used. This eliminated this class of errors.
Basic is an example of this.
Do you have to declare variables in Java? I seem to remember something really dodgy in OOP languages that allows you not to define variables. I thought C was screwed up when they told you to define variables anywhere in the actual code, instead of in the header...
AE<7
"I thought C was screwed up when they told you to define variables anywhere in the actual code, instead of in the header..."
You can do that, but you don't have to. You are always free to impose on yourself a certain amount of code discipline. It's up to you.
You all forget one thing. It is far more likely for a human to make an error then a computerized controled train for one big reason
Although the control software is programed by mortal humans, it is tested and tested and tested for all known outcomes before going into service
Even the most competent train operater can have a bad day. An concidering that there are hundreds of train operators in NYC the likely hood that an marginal train operator having a bad day and cuasing an accident far exceed the computer contriled train
Although the control software is programed by mortal humans, it is tested and tested and tested for all known outcomes before going into service
That's the problem with the testing - it's the unknown outcomes that are the problem. :-)
There is a theoretical problem which applies equally to software and hardware - there is no way to determine whether or not a given machine (or computer software) will perform correctly in every situation. This is known as the "halting problem" in computer science. It is essentially an extension of Goedel's theorem in mathematical logic which states that there is no way to prove that a system of logic is both consistent and complete.
TQuite true. However, it is possible to design, build and test a system which statistically will prove to be highly reliable,and many such systems are in use today. The cost involved in doing so roughly follows the old rule that 20% of the money you spend answers 80% of your worries; the other 80% of your money will be spent answering the last 20% of your worries.
Steve, you got any explanation of the halting problem that you could link to easily? Sounds fascinating.
AEM7
Actually, Steve's explanation wasn't quite right. Here are some links, courtesy of Google.
>>> the likely hood that an marginal train operator having a bad day and cuasing an accident far exceed the computer contriled train <<<
That's y I putt so munch fate im my computer's spill chicken. :-)
Tom
Guys GUYS -
I was NOT commenting on the computer control issues. I was commenting that in the event of a derailment in these areas (broken rail, "blue ice", mechanical malfunction) even at the designated speed, would not the sidewall concrete fall down onto the traffic below?? It sure as hell looks like it.
This was not intended to be a flame show about computer control.
The question is how often we can expect a derailment in those areas. If it's once a year, the design is unacceptable. If it's once every 50 years, the risk of being hit by falling concrete starts to approach the risk of being hit by lightning.
I don't know if people have heard this, but apparently it came out in the investigation that the driver of the derailed airtrain bragged to his sister a few days before the accident "you won't believe how fast this thing goes". Heresy also says that the airtrains tracks goes up and down so much that it may be possible that the concrete blocks slid forwards due to the force of gravity. But all this is heresy, and my engineering knowledge says that (1) is plausible (that the motorman was speeding) but (2) is almost inconceivable.
AEM7
"Heresy also says"
Surely we've gotten past the days of Galileo when if you disagreed with someone on a scientific issue you accused them of heresy!
As for speed, since acceleration around a curve =
(speed squared)/radius, IF the train was going 50 instead of the claimed 25, that would quadruple the sideways forces on the blocks and make a disastrous load shift much more likely.
The driver's boast had nothing to do with the operation near the curve. The vehicle was going between 20-30 mph.
All possible reasons for the crash have to be explored.
>>> The vehicle was going between 20-30 mph. <<<
What is your source? One of the news stories included a witness who worked nearby saying the Airtrain was traveling faster just before the accident than he had ever seen it go down the track before in its six months of trials.
Tom
"What is your source?"
The Port Authority, as quoted by news media. It's also quite reasonable, actually, given that the train had only a sound barrier between it and the street. Sound barriers, even concrete ones, are not designed to keep the trains on the guideway.
"The driver's boast had nothing to do with the operation near the curve. The vehicle was going between 20-30 mph."
I'm not saying that the vehicle was going 20-30 mph, or that it was going much faster. I'm only saying that the shifting load theory has little foundation in basic physics at 25 mph and much more foundation at, say, 50 mph.
OK.
It would be hard to accelerate to 50mph, I think, between the yard and where the crash occured. But I would need real distances and real acceleration figures to check out that theory. Suffices to say that even if linear induction motors accelerate better than adhesion based systems, I would have thought that they would have limited the rate of acceleration for pax comfort reasons. Therefore it is unlikely that the train could have hit a very very high rate of speed between the depot and the accident site. However, we would need the real specs to figure out what the speed could have been, if the driver accelerated all the way from the yard (or point of last known speed) towards the curve.
AEM7
The longest single straight stretch of track on that system would be between the point that the guideway joins the Van Wyck Expressway at the airport, and the turn-off to Jamaica Station. I don't know where deceleration from the design speed (60 mph) would begin, though.
"I'm only saying that the shifting load theory has little foundation in basic physics at 25 mph and much more foundation at, say, 50 mph."
Says who? A load can shift at < 1 mph... if it is improperly secured, something else fails unrelated to lateral forces, and so forth. You might want to recheck your basic physics -- bad things can happen even under the most apparently benign circumstances.
Matt
Says who?
Matt, recheck YOUR physics. I even have a physics degree from a nationally recognized college to prove that I can do physics. And AlM is right.
AEM7
You're pretty funny -- I only wish a degree could make one right!
Before you get your degree, when you're wrong, you're wrong. After you get your degree, when you're wrong, its malpractice.
You've got to step away from Physics 101 here. Stop with the free body diagrams and the assumptions of rigid bodies and frictionless planes. You need not integrate or differentiate to solve this problem. That's the problems with a lot of today's graduates; you're too quick to start number crunching when you haven't fully conceptualized the problem.
A heavy load is situated in a rail car. Say 800 kg to approximate 10 people. When you design the load, you assume the center of gravity of a person is like a yard off the ground. In order to approximate the center of gravity, you locate the 800 kg on a palette, oh, 3 ft off the floor of the car. The car is traveling at 1 mi/h. To raise the palette, it is placed on four steel legs with cross bracing. The contractor makes an error, and the joints fastening the legs of the palette to the actual palette are much weaker than you the engineer had designed. When the train makes the turn, it is the straw the breaks the camel's back. One joint fastening a leg to the palette fails at the palette, and the load now does what?
Now its your turn. You prove to me that a load cannot shift in a train traveling at a speed of 1 mi/h.
I'm not saying this is the scenario that played out. I'm just saying that you have to conceptualize the big picture, and not limit yourself to textbook physics. The real world, and tragedies included, doesn't always follow the homework problem set.
Matt
When the train makes the turn, it is the straw the breaks the camel's back. One joint fastening a leg to the palette fails at the palette, and the load now does what?... Now its your turn. You prove to me that a load cannot shift in a train traveling at a speed of 1 mi/h.
Matt, I appreciate your taking the time to prove a point, in that the load can shift even at less than one mph. I cannot prove that under any set of assumptions that loads will not shift at one mph. For instance, if I were moving an entire building by sliding it on guiderails, then going at more than about 0.1 mph will probably spell disaster for the building, causing all kinds of beams to shift and fracture in the building.
However, under any reasonable set of assumptions, given the information available about the AirTrain accident, AlM's original assertion is correct. AlM's response is qualified with all the previous posts regarding its applicability. The PA article stated that the concrete blocks were placed on the plywood floor. Therefore our calculations are valid and correct, and your scenario is not the actual world scenario.
From my knowledge of rolling stock testing practices, usually loads are not jacked off the floor (or if they were, it is not done using flimsy implementations, due to the danger of shifting loads. Of course, the implementation could be faulty, for instance it is possible that the concrete blocks were in fact anchored to the floor but inadequately so for the 50mph speed.
I dispute your assertion that AlM's physics was wrong, for the assumptions on which we based our calculations. You can challenge those assumptions, but you have not given any credible source as to what made you believe the loads were off the floor. Incidentally, we can also do the calculation in your scenario, and the probability of a shifting load is still higher at 50mph than it is at 25mph (which was AlM's original statement) due to the fact that the bracket is more likely to fail catastrophically if it is subjected to more force. It's not very often I stand by someone else's statement on Subtalk but I think AlM has it right here.
AEM7
Now, now. I wasn't challenging the laws of physics here, nor anyone's use thereof. The acceleration due to gravity will still be 32.2 ft/s^2.
Here is the original quote that I objected to:
"I'm only saying that the shifting load theory has little foundation in basic physics at 25 mph and much more foundation at, say, 50 mph."
I was simply objecting to a logical fault in the above statement.
We can all apply our 6th Edition Tipler Physics text. We can draw our free body diagrams and assume blocks sliding on frictionless (not in this instance) planes.
But the real world doesn't always follow the syllabus for college Physics 101. To be a forensic engineer, which is what we are all trying to do here, you must be able to conceptualize the big picture, and look at all the possible causes.
This is what the NTSB does.
All sorts of hearsay and conjecture have been thrown around on this board. Many of which comes from articles and NTSB assertions. How many posts have been made updating the speed at which the train was traveling? It was 25 then it was 55 then it was 25....
Right now, I think the best option is to keep an open mind and wait for the report.
In the mean time (and this is the basis for my objection) I wouldn't rule out any scenario, regardless of the speed, or where someone says the blocks were. Stranger things have happened to cause an apparent violation of the laws of physics. I gave you one scenario, however implausible. At the end of the day, Physics 101 still applies. We can all sleep easy for that. But the chain of physical events may be quite complicated. As such, I implore all our resident phycists not to rush to judgment,
Matt
I wasn't rushing to judgment. I was just saying a shifting load theory was relatively implausible at 25 mph. I was assuming the load consisted of concrete blocks resting on a linoleum or plywood floor. I didn't ay this explicitly, but it was very clear in my arguments, when I talked about coefficients of friction.
I did not consider the idea of pallets 3' above the floor supported by a steel frame. In that case (not suggested by anything I have read, but admittedly not out of the question), I agree my analysis would not apply.
In any case, now we have heard that the train was going at 55+ mph. At that speed, assuming a moderate radius such as 300', sideways acceleration can easily overwhelm the friction of blocks resting on a plywood floor, which was part of my original point.
I'm not gonna whine at you about "wait for NTSB" ... but the SPEED on the curve alone was a "huh?" here ... given NTSB is STILL on the site and likely to demand some "private tests" it seems as though you MIGHT be on to something here ... dunno the radius of the curve, but 300 feet would indicate a prudent speed of 20 or less. I'm going to guess that the radius was a WHOLE lot more generous than a piddly 300 feet. Even a 1000 foot radius would be hard pressed to handle a 60 mile an hour train, even with a serious cant to the rails ...
Smells funny. Sure hope we don't step in it. :)
"I'm going to guess that the radius was a WHOLE lot more generous than a piddly 300 feet."
Quite possible. I was trying to make the strongest possible case for a shifting load being the cause. My original point was that at 25 mph it was hard to believe that a shifting load could have been the cause, even with assumptions that were favorable to that hypothesis.
Since acceleration is speed squared divided by radius, and any banking of the curve reduces the component of acceleration in a sideways direction, maybe a shifting load wasn't the cause even at 58 mph. If the curve is banked at a 10% slope, and the curve has a radius of 1000', now your sideways acceleration is only .125 g's*, and again it would hard to believe concrete blocks on plywood would shift.
Of course, what this all comes down to is that we need to wait for the NTSB to be sure. But I don't see any reason not to discuss likely causes of the crash based on the information available. We just shouldn't assess blame anyone until we know for sure.
* 58 mph = 85'/sec. 85*85/1000 = 7.225'/sec^2 = .224 g's. Then subtract .1 g's for the banked curve.
Stuff moves ... that's for sure. At least they didn't use BOWLING BALLS for testing. Sorry to make light of it, I have faith in NTSB being able to properly blame everybody. :)
If the curve is banked at a 10% slope, and the curve has a radius of 1000', now your sideways acceleration is only .125 g's*, and again it would hard to believe concrete blocks on plywood would shift.
I don't know about AirTrain engineering parameters, but I know about railroad engineering parameters. Banking, or what we used to call canting, and is called "elevation" in the U.S., is rarely more than 185mm. (Sorry about the metric unit, but I am used to working with British Rail numbers). On any curve, you always have to consider the possibility of train being unexpectedly stopped on the curve, and with heavy freights too high a elevation may cause load-shifting events. Thus track engineering is a balance between achievable speed and stability when stopped. Of course, the degree of elevation permitted depends on the vehicle, but 185mm is a pretty good rule of thumb as a maximum elevation (anything beyond that would typically require a specialist installation, which the AirTrain admittedly was, but even with light vehicles and limited overhang, it would be hard-pressed to push it beyond about 200mm). So, converting that into units that AlM had been using, 200mm is 7.8 inches, and 7.8 inches in 4 ft 8.5 inches (or 56.6 inches) is about 14%.
Wow, AlM was closer to the mark than I had expected.
AEM7
I'm closer than I thought too. I used 10% as a gut feel of how banked/canted/elevated I've observed tracks to be. Have you ever been in a train that stopped in Bridgeport (CT) station? You feel like you're going to slide into the person next to you.
"Says who? A load can shift at < 1 mph"
Says me, based on the laws of physics.
For a load to shift, the acceleration (minus a correction for a banked turn that reduces the effective acceleration) has to exceed the coefficient of friction times gravity. If you have a tanker truck full of water, there is essentially no friction, and load shifts will happen easily. If you have concrete blocks on a linoleum or tile floor, you have considerable friction (probably a coefficient of friction of 0.3 or 0.4).
As I pointed out elsewhere, acceleration around a curve is speed squared divided by radius of the curve. If the speed was 25 mph it is very hard to conjure up an acceleration of 0.3 g's or more. If the speed was 50 mph, it's easy.
The driver's comments are not relevant. Re-read the news articles. The PA already established that the train was operating at not more than 30 mph.
The PA already established that the train was operating at not more than 30 mph.
I prefer to wait for the NTSB report before making assumptions regarding the train's speed at the time of the derailment. The PA does not have that much investigative experience in determining such things after the fact - which in this case may be simply repeating the manufacturer's specification.
"The PA does not have that much investigative experience in determining such things after the fact - which in this case may be simply repeating the manufacturer's specification. "
You have not demonstrated sufficient qualifications or sufficient knowledge of AirTrain's operations or the PA's experience in order to come to that conclusion.
Having said that, of course the NTSB will be the ultimate arbiter. However, the PA must begin making decisions and continuing testing in order to get the train into service. Their own investigation must be thorough, but one derailment does not justify holding everything up until the NTSB is completely done (just as the airlines do not suspend all activity until a final crash report comes out).
Having said that, of course the NTSB will be the ultimate arbiter.
What do you people think of the Atlantic Monthly Magazine? There was an article in there that criticized the NTSB's investigation of the ValuJet crash in the Everglades in Florida. Then there are some British journalists (notably some Nick character, I forget his full name, who wrote the "Crash that stopped Britain") who were very critical of NTSB. Now, I am not saying I agree with these people, but I am just asking if the Subtalkue community are familiar with these alternative perspectives, and whether the Subtalkue community thinks the views expressed by these people are credible.
The ValuJet article is here (long).
I happen to have the utmost respect for NTSB, and although I think that there are very occasionally issues with some of their investigations and the way the interpret the evidence to attribute responsibility and make recommendations, I do believe their technical basis is sound. I'd be interested to hear (esp. from RonInBayside) what his basis of saying that the NTSB would be the ultimate arbiter. In most accidents, I agree with NTSB's reports and attribution of blame, but in some cases there is even internal dissent within the NTSB and in other cases I disagree with the NTSB findings. Even if agencies choose to act on NTSB recommendations, it is important to realize that there are alternative fault-attribution schemes possible.
AEM7
"There was an article in there that criticized the NTSB's investigation of the ValuJet crash in the Everglades in Florida."
Which, ironically, was the unfortunate end in a chain of events that involved the shifting of an improperly secured load.
Matt
Atlantic Monthly has a point of view. It is intended to be a provocative journal, like The New Yorker, although with varying political sensibilities...
Makes interesting reading.
Ultimately, Amtrak (and the airlines) must be able to reasonably trust somebody...
There was an article in there that criticized the NTSB's investigation of the ValuJet crash in the Everglades in Florida.
I failed to detect any critcism of the NTSB's investigation or findings in the article. There was much criticism with the FAA, which is an entirely different organization. There was also the proposition that the "system" made accidents unavoidable. But there was not criticism for the NTSB for failing to find the cause of the crash.
I would echo the point that the article does not criticze the NTSB. It points out the difficulty of preventing management errors that result in bad procedures that occasionally result in terrible accidents. It also portrays the then chairman of the FAA as a total jerk.
The NTSB doesn't set policy; it only investigates. No one disputes that their investigation led to the correct factual conclusions.
No one disputes that their investigation led to the correct factual conclusions.
When I last read the article, the article was quite adament about the NTSB being a bureaucratic and technical organization and therefore failed to recognize the larger issues behind the immediate technical facts.
I might be wrong. But that's what I remember.
AEM7
"When I last read the article, the article was quite adament about the NTSB being a bureaucratic and technical organization and therefore failed to recognize the larger issues behind the immediate technical facts."
But the article also recognizes that it's not their job to address the larger issues behind the technical facts. That's policy, which belongs to the FAA (or the FRA, if we're talking rail), not the NTSB.
What we should expect out of the NTSB is an impartial determination as to whether this was due to a defective component, a bad design, operator error, bad instructions to the operator, or some combination of these. The NTSB won't make proposals for management changes to prevent such an error from happening again.
But the article also recognizes that it's not their job to address the larger issues behind the technical facts. That's policy, which belongs to the FAA (or the FRA, if we're talking rail), not the NTSB.
I disagree. If you read the NTSB report on the WMATA crash at Shady Grove back in 1996 (I think), available here, the report talks at length about the institutional culture then in existence at WMATA (i.e. "computer cannot make a mistake" etc). We have discussed that accident extensively on this board some time previously, and various people made various comments about the dispatcher that made the decision to override the operator. In any case, extensive management shake-up at WMATA occured as a result.
I would argue that the NTSB need to provide a technical account of "what happened", but in order to make meaningful recommendations it must look at the wider issues. The NTSB did very well in examining the wider issues in the Shady Grove report. I only skimmed the NTSB ValuJet report so I don't know if what The Atlantic alleges is correct, but I still felt that even in the ValuJet report the NTSB does attempt to address the instituional organization issues, with ValuJet subcontracting everything to SabreTech and the communication lines and accountability structure was problematic. I happen to disagree with The Atlantic on this one, because I believe NTSB did an adequate job of investgating the institutional issues behind the ValuJet crash. However, NTSB may not always recognize the larger institutional issues, thus they may not always have the "last word" on any given accident.
AEM7
The conclusions always begin from the small and specific: The fire started due to sparking inside a gas tank, or the accident occurred due to brake failure. Then comes the next "why" and your horizon expands...
Well, I did say this was just hearsy, my data source being someone who lives in NYC and keeps track of these things in the press. I don't personally keep track of what the press are saying, or whether it is relevant.
The scale of derailment suggests a low-speed derailment, yes (the train remained on the viaduct, for goodness sake). But maybe the driver thought 30mph was fast, and therefore boasted about it. Perhaps the PA is trying to cover up the fact that the driver was going faster than he should be and the system allowed him to do so. There are many alternative explanations/scenarios, all of which are plausible. There is every reason for a PA cover up, just like there was a cover-up after the MBTA heart attack case this summer.
AEM7
Rather than fearing for us all, calm down and realize such an accident can occur at many places on the NYC Subway.
All we need is slow speed limits or maybe some sort of protection.
What do you think the TA will do to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the subways in New York? I know it's still two years away, but I'm curious.
Here's what I think:
- "100 Year B-Day" Metrocards
- Announce that passengers can stay on the 6 train to see the abandoned City Hall station
- Huge PR campaign
- Huge promotion of the museum
Not much else can be done
Won't they have some kind of special event actually on the IRT -- perhaps at the nearest weekend rather than the the actual day? (Of course, if the actual date happens to fall on a weekend that would be a bonus.)
Well, they can get the Low V set up to specs again for temporary in-service use, the same way they did for the 75th anniversary (59th St. to Bklyn Bridge on the 6 would be my perferred route, instead of putting them on the GC-TS shuttle)
Well the Shuttle was on the original route of the subway in 1904,
59th & Lexington was not. IMO :| )
~Sparky
The train could run along Broadway between 42nd and 137th, although doing so without gumming up regular operations would be a challenge. Except for 42nd itself, that's all along the original IRT route.
It might be more appropriate to run a special out of City Hall up to Grand Central (even if GC is not original), as that is how the original ceremony started. BTW, was the original run in 1904 (the ceremonial first train) run on the express track or the local track?
The inaugural special on Day One ran express from City Hall to 145th St., then ran local on the return trip. Curiously, many of the dignitaries got off at stations closest to their homes on the return trip instead of going back to City Hall.
The Lex local has the center track between 59th and 68th Sts. the train could turn around at, and the route between 42nd and Brooklyn Bridge is the original route, and five times the length of the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle, BTW. Putting it on the No. 6 train, even for short run, non-rush hour only trips, would allow far more people to experience the Low Vs than would on the here-there-here-there-here-there-here-there route the shuttle takes.
Actually, more people would experience it on the shuttle, though for a shorter distance. How many 6 trains run at any given time? Lots. How many shuttle trains run at any given time? Between one and three.
It would be interesting to see the usage numbers for the 6 between B'klyn Bridge and 59 compaired to the shuttle. IMHO, the 6 would still come out on top, due to its transfer points at B'klyn Bridge, Canal, Bleeker (downtown), 14th, 42nd and 59th, though keepnig the Low Vs operating times outside of the rush hour crush loads would probably even out the usage numbers between it and the shuttle.
it could not run in normal service on the lexington lines or the 1/9 due to gapfillers
It was used in normal service on the No. 6 for a special exhibition of the cars in the 1970s, on the short route between B'klyn Bridge and 59th St., and didn't need to use the gap fillers. Remember, it was only a five-car train of Low Vs, so it only needed to use the rear half of the Union Square downtown platform, which is straight. The curved section of the downtown platform is at the front of the train.
South Ferry is a different story -- it would have to use the gap fillers there and they wouldn't match up.
What is the top speed of those Lo-V's?
Frank D-
I'm not sure what their top speed would be right now, but if the Low Vs motors are fully operational, they would have no problem running at current normal speeds along any IRT line (in part because speed restrictions in certain areas are greater now than they were 50-75 years ago).
City Hall lop is revenue track
The newsletter from the NYC Transit Museum that came a few weeks ago said that the Museum would be "heavily involved" in the 100th celebration, but no details were given. This is probably a good time to write to the Museum Director with thoughts.
I was hoping they would have restored the City Hall station for the festivities, but they had better start soon if they had any idea to do that - so unfortunately I guess they won't be doing that.
My guess is that it will remain shut.
Worth might be a good candidate to restore
If they're smart, they'll steal every idea they can from the Paris Metro. I was on their Cent Ans de Metro mailing list, and they'd invite people on activities when their birthday fell on the opening day of a line; they'd have receptions in stations, group rides, and the best web sites (with old station photos) I've ever seen.
>>>If they're smart,....<<<
Remember now, we are talking about the NY Transit authority. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
In the graphic design capital of the UNIVERSE? We have it ALL OVER those guys for imagination (and yes, I know public unfunding trumps creativity every time). Off topic -- Andee -- tell me a cool place to buy glasses!!! 88-) (extra pair on my forehead).
I don't really know for sure, but if the official centennial logo is any indication, it may be one big PR campaign and nothing else. The logo consists of a stylized skyline and subway car that doesn't even look like NYC rolling stock. there even isn't a kiosk in the logo.
The only way to celebrate a subway centennial in The Big Apple is to have the old cars restored and running. I feel it's not going to happen. The clock is ticking, it takes time and money to get those R1-9's road worthy again. The B-Types, although worked on by volunteers, still need tons of work. Once again the clock is ticking. The Low-V's just need some repair work and a real paint job. Not gray and black, but olive green and black. We got two years to go.
You can't celebrate the centennial without the old cars. A PR campaign alone won't cut it.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have a question about a car at Seashore. The URL below, from the ABPR photo archive, shows an unidentified streetcar under a tarp at Seashore. Does anyone know what car this is? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
http://abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?september02/09-30-02/DSCN1154-UnknownSTM7-6-02.jpg
Looks like a dreary drizzly day for the Rockaway trip. I will be busy with various stuff tomorrow and will not be able to go, as well the weather looks to be kinda unpleasant.
I hope whoever goes has fun, and I may try to do the 9am Sunday thing instead.
Peggy has asked me to post this last reminder:
Sunday's trip is mainly indoors. We will be outside walking from South Ferry to Whitehall, City Hall BMT to Park Place, lunch in Brooklyn if we do lunch and the New Lots Line.
Meet at Penn Station in front of McDonalds (on the lower level- same level as the subway exit to Penn Station-7th Ave. end.)at 9am. We will leave at 9:15am
yes sounds good. I'll be taking the 7:01am Oyster Bay train to Penn.
It'll be a good excuse to get out of Sea Cliff, Sunday is the day of the loud and crazy minimart (lots of drunks!).
I never been out to New Lots before so it'll be interesting.
I haven't been out to New Lots in over 10 years. I'm looking forward to it.
I was there three weeks ago (or, rather, to the New Lots line, only as far as Junius). I'm still looking forward to it.
Remnants of Powerfull Lili has arrived!
Being a C/R I have noticed a few things about The R 46'and 32's stored in Jamacia
1)Air conditioning in the cabs of R 46's BLOW!!!! Its Hot 90% of time.
2)Door Motors on the 46 are way to slow for busiest coridor in Queeens.Where they always this slow or were the "Tweaked"?
3)R 32's seem to always have slow door or two ,plus A/C not as cold as the ones From C/I.
Reason I ask is today I had a 32 from the N line (yes I keep all car #'s of the trains I work)and Get this Doors had no Indication Probs and both sides were damm rite cold.So are the RCI's in the yard asked to tweak a few things or Is C I yard just plain out better?
1. The cabs do not have their own air conditioning systems. If it's hot in the cab, then one of the two air conditioners is not on (could be that the thermostat says the car isn't hot enough to turn on the AC, could be that the AC's broken) -- or the occupant simply wants it colder than the AC can make it.
2. The R-46 doors, in my observations, have been slow since the cars came back from GOH. It's adjustable but seems not to have been done.
3. Could be a problem with individual cars.
David
Door opening = 1.5 seconds on all NYCT cars (except possibly new tech cars)
Door closing = 2.5 seconds on all NYCT cars (except possibly new tech cars)
HVAC doen not operate if the ambient temp is 71 degrees or below on either Jamaica or Coney Island cars. Jamaica cars spend more time under ground so cars are warmer & filters are dirtier. May be coincidence that he works Jamaica cars on days where HVAC is not being called for. It may also be a pre-conceived notion. Without actual temp. readings, I'd be skeptical of any such comparrisons.
The door opening and closing rates are as quoted by TD, but within a tolerance range. Is it possible that the R-46s are all set for the slower end of the range, or that enough of them are set for the slower end of the range to be noticeable?
David
I've noticed that R-44s are definitely slower than the R-46.
No, I think someone is jacking up the AC vents in hose cars. It has been pretty bad the two summers I've been here. It seems the grilling that allows you to adjust how much cool air comes in is torn off and something stuffed in the duct. Doesn't make sens to me, why not just use the feature it came with instead of destroying it.
I always wish I knew who was doing this.
All pre R142 DCUs have a batch of adjustments to control door speed.
If you do truly feel that door speed is affecting RTO, write it up at your risk. Different trainsets do have different mechanical linkages...timing is NOT identical. TD is correct about timing and RTO accounts for the timing in train schedules....when I travel long distances like going to my yard, I time door operation and dwell time and go crazy because I'm going to be late at my yard. I refuse to comment about my fellow CIs...what they do is under supervision. My Dept. Supt. makes sure that our Redbirds have fully operational HVAC...he is an 'escapee' of the TDs plantation! Other shops may let things go back into RTO but 239/180 MAKES TRAINS GO. CI Peter
I've noticed warm/humid R32s on the "E" and "F" - Jamaica Yard cars.Makes no difference if Phase I or Phase II.
Coldest R32 seem to be Phase I out of Pitkin-Yard, found mostly on the "C" and lately on the "A" too. Coldest this summer: 3434-3435, encountered Sept.14 on the "A".
wayne
My newspaper this morning reviews a book written by a London Underground driver, Bob Griffiths, a 35-year veteran of the Central Line. It's called Mind the Doors, and is published by Silver Link Publishing at 14.99 pounds. I doubt it will be published in the USA, but you might be able to get copies through Amazon.
"It's called Mind the Doors, and is published by Silver Link Publishing at 14.99 pounds."
Is that the weight or the cost of the book.
Michael
You're joking right? Har har.
14.99 Pounds? That's the weight of a Redbird composite brakeshoe!!!
Dis ain't Korvettes, Alexanders or TSS. Twenty five buckskys plus postage to read about fruitloops 'underground?' Entrance to our 'zoo' remains $ 1.50 and you can travel forever to meet New York Cities finest representatives of social culture until you exit. CI Peter
Anybody know the reason for power off at 125th Street on the ABCD on Thursday at around 1230? Lasted for about 45 minutes.
Peace,
ANDEE
A robbery suspect hid in the tunnel between 103 & 110. They caught him.
You mean to tell me that crims actually BELIEVE they disappear in tunnels? Nevermind. :)
Many of my buddies tell me that catching felons is usually nice and easy, because the perps are SO stupid. Usually. This was obviously an easy one.
I guess there wasn't a bed handy to hide under.
Yesterday at around 11:15, I thought I saw a shape of a (6) going northbound to 239 Street yard, why would a (6) be running on the 2/5 line?
Possible reroute due to problem on the 6
Oh, the train was OOS as well as it skipped Pelham Parkway
6 can look hella lot like a 5
when in blurry LCD red.
Dept. Supt. who knows I'm crazzy tech tekky pulled me off Redbird inspection to shove my dirty nose undercar to note differences between Kawasaki and Bombardier....months before loose coupler sleeves and popping shear bolts. Trainsets share common hardware and common problems...Kawasaki may do a better job of hiding problems but their engineering staff has an excellent track record of responding to problems on the shop floor and the R142A MDBF speaks volumes.
They sometimes hold an OOS but we and the vendors do not touch them...they must receive service from the Emperors Ligation...Mitsubishi type 97 torpedoes sunk docked capital Naval ships in Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. Japon missed a few..my parents generation has not forgotten. CI Peter
How about this for the subway's 100th birthday?
Let NYCT temporarily restore the original 1904 route and use Low-V cars to carry rail fans from City Hall to 145th Street, just like the first train did on October 27, 1904.
I can see two problems with this:
1) Northbound trains from City Hall would have to use the southbound local track to access the 1904 Grand Central station, which could be dangerous.
2) There is no current single track connecting the two sides of the "H". Transit would have to build a small stretch of track connecting Track 1 at Times Square to the Broadway IRT line. There is one track at Times Square that connects to the Broadway line, but it doesn't connect to the track coming in from Grand Central.
These are logistical and potentially expensive problems. But I would sure love to ride such a trip.
How about this as a permanent change? Bring some of the west side IRT trains across 42nd to pick up the load on the lower Lexington Ave. route.
You mean run east and west side IRT trains on both lines, some staying on the east side and some running to the west side using the 1904 stations? I like that idea, except I don't know that the tracks have enough capacity to handle all of those lines.
The trains crossing to the west side would turn south at Times Square (except the shuttle dead ends in a northward turn, darn it) and then follow the 123 line. Is 123 now overloaded? p.s. Where's the easiest place to find line and station capacity and traffic?
Dunno. That's over my head.
Nice dream, but let's get real here.
To resurrect the 1904 route required major (multi-millions of $)switch and signal work at Times Square and Grand Central. For what? Trains would have to cross other active tracks to make the necessary moves. Would slow down service big time. It just ain't gonna happen. Let's stay in the realm of reality.
But what would be nice would be a Low-V special starting at the Times Square shuttle $4 track and then going uptown on the West Side IRT to 145th or even to 242. Would have to be on a weekend when one shuttle track is not used anyway.
"Let's stay in the realm of reality."
That spoils all the fun of posting here.
Just a reminder that the 'depot museum' will be open to the public on October 19 and 20 with admission at £6.65
further details at ltmuseum.co.uk
On display will be the latest addition a preserved! 1983 driving motor car ex Jubilee line (pre extension!).
The depot is situated at the Acton Town end of Ealing Common District Line depot just outside the main entrance to ACTON TOWN (District & Piccadilly) station.
Turn right-
Cross the road (Gunnersbury Lane) then take the first left turn over the bridge.
.
Mind the doors
Rob
1983 driving motor car
LUL scrapping stock after 20 years? What's wrong with them? Too much money? Give us some, we need it here at the T.
AEM7
the trouble with the'83 Jubilee line tube stock....was that it was built with single leaf doors...too much platform dwell time reduces trains per hour.New 1996 stock was introduced when the line was extended Green Park-Stratford for the millenium.
However,London Underground decided that:
batch one units (3cars)
3601-3630 should be scrapped (some trailer cars kept)
batch two units (3cars)
3631-3663 be stored and some cut.
.
Some plans to run them on the Piccadilly Line to increase number of tph never came to anything so about 20 x 3 car units are dotted around the system laid up in sidings!.
.
Rob
There was more wrong with the 1983 stock than just the doors. Overall, it was very poorly constructed and didn't have good equipment.
-Robert King
Hold on a minute...
apart from having single leaf passenger doors these units were great, fast accelerating,bright interiors and one of Metro Cammells finest productions,apart from the metrobus that is!
Rob.
1st run in public use 1st May 1984,
I thought that the mustard-colored melamine interior was rather tacky.
Kind of like the peg-board ceiling in the 1960 stock.
wayne
Nothing's wrong with London Underground, everything's wrong with the 1983 stock. I don't think many of those trains lasted 15 years in service. That fact should speak for itself.
-Robert King
I toured the Acton Town Depot Museum last Nov.01.
Worth every £, I might add.
After the Museum visit, stand on the bridge near the station and watch the trainsets move in and out on the District & Piccadilly lines, which diverge at this point. Most interesting!
Coming over this year ?
Simon
Swindon UK
They actually SAVED one of the 1983 Tube Stock! Heavens!
I wonder if it still has the fake D78 stock interior and moquette.
wayne
Chicago's Northwest Corridor proposals are far from settled, as this
article in the northwest suburban Daily Herald indicates.
My comment:
Another damned piece of local politics, with people fighting over alignments. At least it's YIMBY rather than NIMBY. Why don't they just do both alternatives, making a branch at O'Hare? If the ridership demand isn't enough to justify that, well... too bad, what about CTA putting the line out to bid, and the municipality that makes most voluntary contributions to CTA gets the line?
Actually, knowing Chicagoland politics, that's probably how the decision would eventually be made... and I'd say that's a damn good way to make a decision! At least the thing would get built once the politics is over.
AEM7
Finally.....
You can see here for details.
Chaohwa
Interesting!
I was on trainset #11 yesterday (2167) and today (2190). It stayed on (or close) to the track all the way, and both trips were on-time. 2167 yesterday was about 75% full (BOS-NYP), and 2190 today (NYP-BOS) about 50% full. I rode in the quiet car both trips, and had the same conductor. He was great! When he lifted each person's ticket, he said (quietly), "This is the quiet car. Your cell phone must be off. No voicemail, no vibrating mode. Completely powered off. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?" I assume this is because the QC is very popular, and some conductors are lax about enforcement, prompting compaints.
When he lifted each person's ticket, he said (quietly), "This is the quiet car. Your cell phone must be off. No voicemail, no vibrating mode. Completely powered off. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?"
How I wish we had this on the LIRR!!!!
This conductor meant business! He also announced over the PA at the beginning of the trip, "There is no smoking anywhere on this train. That inlcudes the coaches, restrooms, and vestibules between cars. Smoking will be grounds for your removal from the train."
I wonder if he meant enroute? That would be interesting at 150 mph.
I wonder if he meant enroute? That would be interesting at 150 mph.
It'd certainly be messy.
Glad to hear it. I once got a sold out train where no matter how many times the conductor announced it, people did it anyway, including the guy sitting next to me. This was train 2172 in April.
On R62(A) and redbirds there is/was a color stripe under the number denoting yard the car is assigned to. Now that the R142(A) is assigned to other lines will the color stripes return or has that gone the way of the redbirds
Well most of the subtalkers on this board are adults, and I know each of you have your best railfanning memory on the subways. My best memory was riding the D train to Coney Island for the first time when I was 4 years old. It was amazing seeing different parts of the city especially coney island. I remember seeing the R-30's for the first time ever, and see the dirty R-40S. So whats your best memory of the subways?
For me it was my first ride on the Metro----In those days only the Red Line operated from Rhode Island Ave to Dupont Circle and the Blue from Nat'l Airport to Stadium-Armory. When you come out of the Smithsonian station onto the mall for the first time and you're right in the middle between the Capitol and the Washington Monument----quite breath-taking. Also, how we learned very quickly that the trains only have posted the final destination of the train-----We kept waiting on the platform at R.I. Ave for a train marked Metro Center, yet they were all labeled Dupont Circle :( It didn't take long for us to realize the error of our ways;). That was when I realized my love of subways and other transit related things.
So many: My first trip on the NX to Brighton and my first trip on the Broad Street Subway when they had 1928 B-1 cars.
Also my last trip on a Low V on the Bronx Third Ave. El after going to the zoo ranks high.
I have many, but these two stand out:
I used to love to take the train out to Rockaway. I remember the first time my friend and I rode the subway "by ourselves" - I guess in the early '80's. We started on the M and took that to Myrtle-Broadway to get the J to Eastern Pkwy. I remember being fascinated looking into all the abandoned and burnt out buildings between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway. Then the long escalator ride down to the A to Broad Channel. I remember wondering where the abandoned tracks went (where the Liberty El meets the Rockaway Branch). At Broad Channel we waited for the "H" train to Seaside. (We went to Beach 105th-Seaside because that is where my father said he used to get off when the LIRR went there, so when he gave us directions on how to go to Rockaway, that's where we got off - and did that for the many more trips to Rockaway throughout my teens). At Broad Channel, I remember seeing a green "H" R10 for the first time, and being excited because I never seen them before! (I actually thought it was an R16 painted up - as that is what I was used to on the M and L - what did I know back then?). I realized they were different because the little fans were spinning, and I never saw that before) There was nothing better than an R10 speeding on the Rockaway branch with all the windows and doors open, and fans spinning. On the way home, we got a graffitied R10 C train (signed for Bedford Park Blvd - I remember that because I thought it was such a cool sounding name) back to ENY. The subway ride was almost as much fun as the beach itself. I would love to go back to that day, just for a few hours.
My second favorite memory was when I was a bit older (late teens-early 20's), when me and the same friend got a M R40 slant at Essex one night, and we rode between cars on the slant end across the bridge and along the Broadway el (sure, stupid to ride between cars, but I was younger back then). I just remember thinking it was so cool because there was so much "outdoor space" there - probably the closest thing you can get to a gate car with the current equipment.
Finally, and honorable mention. I really miss the old LIRR diesel cars. There was nothing greater than the "reverse railfan window" (well no window or door) on the back of a Montauk Express via the mainline when riding in the last vestibule of the last car - no engine there on the back (two GP38-2's on the front) - just you and the open air. Brings a tear to the eye - oh wait a minute, that's a piece of brake dust that just flew into the eye.....
My best subway ride is every time I step on one. But the one that provokes the most memory has to be sometime in August after the Union Square wreck (Which was also one the most dramatic experience for me), when I rode a 4 train from 125 street to Utica Avenue. It was nice to know the train driver wasn't drunk. It was also a nice smooth ride. BTW Everytime I rode the 4 either I stood up for the "roller coaster ride"(It was fun when I was 5 and its fun when I'm 16) or I fell asleep due to the rocking of the train.
My best subway memory came on my very first ride on the Piccadilly Line.
It was my very first visit to London back in 1999 and I had just gotten off the "red-eye" from NYC into Heathrow. I had been wanting to go to London for over 25 years before this visit. Even before I left NYC, I knew that I was taking the Tube into Central London.
About 9 am, I got on the Tube which used the refurbished 1973 stock for the ride into Central London. I absolutely loved the sound of the bull & pinion gears (right?) and the bouncy ride plus the view of the London suburbs with those distinctive British style homes, not to mention the louder that usual sound of the wheels going over the tracks due to the short height of the train.
To top it all off, the fun "express" run from Acton Town to Hammersmith was the icing on the cake.
I'll never forget that ride. The Tube is only one of the reasons why I absolutely adore London.
My favorite subway ride is when I first rode the subway at age two from Ave U on the Brighton Line( caught an R44 D train) to the Bronx Zoo( caught an R17 going and an R15 returning). I became facinated with trains from that day on.
My last memorable ride was one night, I ran away from home and rode the entire subway system that night. All for $1. That was the second week that the Archer Ave Subway was opened. I got a @$^# whooping the following day by Pops but it was worth it. That night, I rode GOH R42's for the first time. When my trek started, it was at Sheepshead Bay on a Q train of unrebuilt R42's with the blue side doors. Sadly to say, to this day, I still never made it to 95 Street yet on the R line. Even saw a train of R16's on the L. What a ride. Kids, do not attempt this ride under any circumstances. Subways late at night are very dangerous. I was lucky that night.
Actually, tha reminds me of a late night ride that really brings back great memories. It was New Year's Eve 1991. It was the first (and only) time I did the Times Square "ball dropping". Afterwards, we decided to go out to Coney Island. At the time I was still trying to finish my "riding every line in the system". Until that point I hadn't ridden the Sea Beach yet, so we took that. Somewhere around Union Ave some guy in our car let loose a huge snake. I hate snakes, so we decided to switch cars. It was an R68, so we had to run out at the next station and run to the next car. We did that, and as soon as we were in the next car, and the doors closed we realized that someone had puked (the joys of New Years Eve) all over the car. It smelled so bad and the mirrored interior of the R68's didn't help. We were stuck in there until the next station.
Well the rest of the trip went fine, and it was great to go down to Coney Island early that morning in New Years Day 1992.
AT the time it seemed really gross, and I still can't ride an R68 without thinking of that night, but I look back at that night once in a while and still laugh about that N train trip.
I remember one Sunday morning I was bored stiff so I decided to ride the J train all the way to Oueens Blvd. I got off the #2 at Fulton and found my way to the platform. While standing near the mouth of the tunnel, I heard this very loud rumbling. When I turned my head, it was the J train. I was like Oh my God THIS IS THE J TRAIN??? It's a freaking mess!! So I got on and right away I regretted it cause it seemed like every single wheel had a flat spot! The ride smoothed out once the train picked up speed but the noise was freaking unbearable! Going over the WB was painful. I was afraid the bridge was gonna shake itself apart! I stayed on the train as far as Eastern Parkway. We had to transfer for another train to Qns Blvd (gee, I wonder why) but I headed back to Fulton Street. I couldn't stand the noise any longer.
Now I actually regret not going all the way to the last stop. Years later when I moved to Richmond Hill, the J was a much better train to ride, but I was saddened to hear that Metro Av and Qns Blvd were closed so the J changed ends at 121st. That worked out great cause my new home was only a block away.
Riding the r-110 units in service on
the A (and!) 2 lines in 1993-94.
Riding the 2150 VCP to South Ferry 9/14/02
Anytime the r22's or r26/28/29 were on the 1
(talkin' back in the 1980's folks!!)
Wow - I have so many of them. At NYCT(A) the memories are quite old since many of the fun rides are no longer fun. One of my best was whenj the R-62's were newly delivered to the #4 line. One day I was on a S/B #4 in Manhattan and the T/O was having a great time (and so was I), but on the 86th to 59th Street sprint he moving ful speed and unfortunately he applied the brakes a bit late and we overshot the platform. Boy - those were the days.
Now I enjoy fast rides on WMATA trains almost daily, but I sure miss those NYCTA express runs like most of Lexington, 6th Ave, 7th Ave, 4th Ave Brooklyn and even 8th Ave.
Wayne
I remember two rides that will remain among my fondest memories until the good Lord calls me home. Number one was the BMT #1 Brighton Express on its way to Ebbets Field via Prospect Park station. The thrill was indescribable. It usually meant a great day at the ballpark and most often a Brooklyn Dodgers victory. The other was any time I rode the Triplex BMT#4 Sea Beach to Coney Island or to my two grandparents' house. It made me a Sea Beach fanatic that I am to this day.
My favorits:
1) The first time my dad took me for a ride on the Wooden Q-cars of the Myrtle Avenue El
2) Many times as a young boy, standing at the front of a Lo-V, as it exited the portal before 161st Street-Yankee Stadium
3. Taking my high school girlfriend on The Brighton Express to Coney Island on an incredibly hot summer day, on a brand-new, ice-cold R-42.
a couplr of special 'speed runs'
A CERA fantrip on CTA with a string of the "not-rodded 6000's. We waited on a Sunday until our revenue follower was on our tail, thenthe CTA GM (and member #3 IIRC) let 'er rip. Nonstop from 58th on the now Green Line through the State St tunnel and up to Fullerton.
an ERA trip on BART a specua train left Civic Ctr. for the Hayward Sgops. We got to open a cab window and experience the wind which is never possible on regular revenue service.
The inaugural trip of Line IV of the Barcelona Metro (new stations at Joanic, Verdaguer, Girona, Passeig de Gràcia [called Gran Via then], rehabbed stations from the former Line III branch at Urquinaona and Jaume I, plus the opportunity to stay on the train to the abandoned station at Corréos) in 1973 where the train reversed direction to return.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember riding the composites on the 3rd AveEl &
.The D types & Standards out to Coney Is..in the 50's....The R9's up & down the Concourse...Loved the R10's on the A all in the 60's & 70's. But the LoV's on the Jerome/Lex...was my Fav. I did get to ride the Polo-Ground shuttle..just 2 LoV cars. Damn I'm getting old.....
1963...school class got special trip to new Worlds Fair in Flushing....we had opened windows and unfurlled flags...trip was memorialized in film.....no camcorder had yet been invented. CI Peter
Tops in my book would be riding on the R-1/9s minus headlights on the lead motor on a CPW express dash.
A close second is a ride on the R-10s on the same stretch.
I have many, but I'll talk about my first ride on MARTA. I had a short layover in Atlanta on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando. I got bumped from my connecting flight, so I had six hours to squander. I rode into downtown on MARTA, and I loved the system, especially Peachtree Center station. All my memories were colored, however, by the fact that I'd gotten a $500 travel voucher from the airline for being bumped. Given that, the system could have been the worst in the world and I'd still have loved it. :)
Mark
All I remember is the name.
I think something like 'Subway Future' All I know is it had the year 2040. I hope the guy who owns the site will reply. I know he posts here.
LOL that's not the first time this has happened. Isn't this Elias's site? It's definitely visionary, and very railfan oriented, although it's not very well tied to real-world cost constraints.
AEM7
It is Elias.
Yes, it is Elias!!! Thank you, but what I really meant to ask was what is the URL? I need to know. Thanks.
It's a simple one. Did Salaam say he had no trouble on the Babylon branch while filming? I didn't read every one of his posts so I am not 100% sure but I believe that's what he said. Well, today, I heard from a conductor on the LIRR that another conductor asked him to stop filming out of the window (for an unspecified reason). When he refused to comply - he was put off the train at Rockville Center. Fess up Salaam. What really happened on the Babylon branch?
It could've been another person filming, one who was somehow more conspicuous than Salaam (is that possible??).
Unca Steve: I truly feel Sallam Allahs intents overcome his lack of GOs...the guy just wants to take pics without harm to others.
Next CI pick is wracking your protogee BeH. Beeg bailout expected in next pick....I'll do another tour on the little trains but be prepared as I will catch up with you when McK explains how we got into the yard (Webster?) CI Peter
".....feel Sallam Allahs intents overcome his lack of GOs...the guy just wants to take pics without harm to others."
Same can be said of a peeping tom.
I think that'd apply only if the cab is being actively blessed. :)
I take it "flying United" is against the rules now too. Heh.
Smith-9 St is one of the most DEPRESSING stations I have ever seen in my life. The concrete platforms are uneven, the metal or aluminum "ceilings" are eroding [if you are on the MB platform toward the rear there's visual proof]. If its supposed to get a makeover, it is about time. I see that its tarped outside & inside the middle tracks and they're painting the trestles (the trapezoid shaped metal or steel thing) between 4 Av & Smith St. If its a long term project, the station walls should get tiled similar to Parkside Av, Beverley & Cortelyou Roads on the Brighton line.
The rails need to be replaced because its so rusted that if trains ran on it as a regular service it would crack and break into pieces
;-)
I would like your opinions on what they should do with this station if it went through a major renovation.
I do like the idea of a tiled station. But since it is a former IND station, it should be tiled into the stripe, or similar to that effect like the underground stations.
A tiled EL?? They should make it BMT style even though that section is IND. (ex: Ditmas Av/Culver and 18 Av/West End. I don't there are any tiled EL stations...not 100% sure...Are there?
Smith-9th (and 4th Ave.-9th, for that matter) have always had a "function over form" look that became prevalent in most of everything New York built as part of its Depression-era public works projects. Not pretty and/or cookie cutter in design (all of Bob Moses' WPA-era park buildings looked the same), but it did what it was supposed to do at a time when ornamental luxuries were not something that could be justified.
Other than preserving the bare-bones look of Smith-9th for historical purposes, I don't see why they can't spruce up the station a little during rehab, since the station itself would have probably had a lot more in terms of styline had the Depression not hit or had the IND ben built 5-10 years earlier (of course, with the view of Lower Manhattan from Smith-9th, the look of the station is almost destined to be secondary...).
If you think the Smith-9th St. stop is deplorable, you should take a look at the 3 line from Sutter-Rutland to New Lots. The whole el is pitted with rust, paint peeling and non-existent, fare control areas have extensive wood rot. It's a disgrace!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
When I talked about putting tile on Smith St in a previous post, I aint really think of the design as if it would be IND style or BMT style. as subtalker IND said, he would tile the wall IND style. It would be in the Carroll/Bergen color scheme, which is green. The station is crying for help:layers of paint peeling, eroding metal or aluminum, poor lighting, uneven platforms its a shame.
Now about infrastructure, if you thought the 3 was bad, how about the A and the shuttle after Rockaway Blvd towards the Rockaways. It has rust on the concrete structure, the stations are dark & its just dillapidated(not sure if I spelled it right). The stations between N.Conduit Av & Broad Channel are just dull.
I can't believe the MTA uses aluminum sheets as "walls" on the els. I hope the els get something similar to the Jamaica line on its el from Hewes St to Chauncey St
Wednesday I wandered down to 30th St station, and managed to catch a glimpse of a strange sight. NJT 4400, an ALP44, in fact the first ALP44, delivered back in 1990, was sitting amongst the AEM-7s, E60s and P42s. I have seen Arrows there, but never managed to shoot a picture of them. I think I heard somewhere on this board that the Arrows are going to Wilmington for installation of some kind of cab signaling system, is that why the ALP was here? or are they doing something else. It seems odd, some of the ALP44s are really new, why didn't they come with a cab signaling system, it's only 12 years old, didn't the AEMs come with cab signaling? Also I saw the Pantographs being lowered (didn't take a picture of that, by then I was beating a path back to Drexel, I was late for my class). One of the workers, might be the one in the photo, was working something on one of the MU cables, he seemed to release something, and it looked like something spilled on him, that was followed by a long hiss of escaping air or steam. Might they have been preparing it to be towed to Wilmington?
One last thing, I have yet to see SEPTA's ALP44 anywhere, or for that matter any of the AEMs other than 2304 and 2306. Does SEPTA really have an ALP44? If they do, is it in a shop somewhere with the other AEM's? Photos of the two that I see regularly are available on the webshots site.
I apologize for the rather poor quality of the pictures, I am using a cheap RCA CDS1000 Digital Camera, possibly one of the most obtuse pieces of plastic and silicon ever made, But hey, it was free.
If the photo at top Doesn't work, click here
http://community.webshots.com/photo/51320290/51659843fdciOc
Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks.
NJT is installing a new technology cab signal system (US&S, actualy quite a slick setup, for a change) on their equipment. This to allow compatability with the ACSES on the NEC (if it ever gets installed, remember 25kv operation on the NEC?), and NJT's new PTS system.
As per federal law, the ALPs already have PRR style cab signals (3 aspect? 4?), or else they couldn't run on the NEC.
I thought NEC was 11kv and the M & E Division was 25kv.
Thank you. I knew there was something to do with cab signaling systems, just didn't realize that there were two different systems. I am supposing that the ALP-46s will come with the US&S system, if not it kinda seems like a rip off to get a bunch of brand new engines only to have to shop them right away.
And did I see a post here on a problem with the ALP-46s on the M&E? I seem to recall a post that said that they were breaking down or something. Is this true? I had high hopes for them, it would be a shame for NJT to get inducted into the 'Conbardier-screwwed-em' circle cause of the ALP-46s.
I like your expression :)
NYUK NYUK NYUK
Does SEPTA really have an ALP44? If they do, is it in a shop somewhere with the other AEM's?
I photographed SEPTA's ALP44 in Frazer shop on April 21, 2001.
Thank you again, Mr. Vogel.
Another case where I knew I'd heard something, but wasn't sure if it was true or not, or if I was just making stuff up.
Is 2308 in a shop, I mean, I know it was in the shop when you photographed it, but does anyone know if it still in the shop. I still keep seeing 2306 and 2304, although I may have seen 2307 or 2301, wasn't sure. Is most of the fleet out in frazier? Wasn't there some SEPTA conductor who introduced themselves a while back, you still you there?
Thanks again.
On October 4, 1955, the Brooklyn Dodgers defeated the despised New York Yankees, 2-0 at Yankee Stadium as the Bums won their first and only World Series in the borough of homes and churches as Brooklyn was once known as. It came four years and one day from the most tragic day in that borough's history and while it may be off topic and not important to many of you, it was and is very important to people who were around and remember that day.
Yes, and as a long-time (since 1954) fan of those despised Yankees let me say (1) the 1950s Brooklyn Dodgers were a great ball club; (2)it was a great Series that went right down to the wire (I still remember listening to the games on radio while in grade school, and watching on TV when I got home); (3) I'll bet most of the fans got to Yankee Stadium on the #4 and D, and to Ebbets Field on the 2,3,4,5 and Brighton Express/Local (today's Q).
Ironically, the Dodgers won their only New York subway series in the Bronx. And who would have believed that two years later the Dodgers would leave Brooklyn forever.
You might say that the Brooklyn Dodgers were a victim of the automobile and Subtalk's favorite whipping boy, Robert Moses.
O'Malley saw the middle class fans moving to Queens, Nassau and Suffolk. White flight was kicking in. The suburban, auto-oriented lifestyle was booming. The Dodgers' attendence was low and falling, despite the excellence of the team.
The story is, however, that O'Malley didn't want to run. All he wanted was the newly vacant lot at the Atlantic Terminal Renewal Area, and he'd build a stadium with his own money. The fans from Long Island could get there directly on the LIRR. City land and infrastructure, team-built stadium. That's essentially the deal O'Malley got in L.A. I'd take that deal for the Yankees and Mets right now.
Robert Moses, however, didn't want such a traffic heavy use in a traffic choked location, and he thought that people would want to drive. So he, legend has it, helped to block the deal. Later, he used public dollars to build Shea Stadium -- with just one subway line a long ride away from the homes of most subway riders, but lots of parking and highways.
Was O'Malley's offer serious, or was he just doing PR on his way out the door? We'll never know.
Post-script -- Brooklyn is more Afro-American than any NYC borough. In the 1980s, someone proposed an arena for the Atlantic Terminal, with the hope of attracting a basketball team. Surrounding, increasingly gentrified neighborhoods went nuts about the potential auto traffic and parking. The idea was shelved.
The half human O'Malley had already made a deal with Los Angeles when he made the gesture asking the city to give him land it did not own so he could build his ball park.
I also take issue with you on saying the attendance was poor. The Brooklyn franchise was the biggest money maker in the National League given everything.
It is revisionist history to continue to blame Robert Moses for the rape of Brooklyn perpetrated by a semi human. Moses might have had 10% of the responsibility but the fact is it was illegal for the city to give the piece of shit O'Malley that land.
May that piece of shit continue to rot in hell along with the rest of his family.
You have just got to be a rabid Brooklynite to write such a thing. I hope O'Malley doesn't suffer because I don;t wish that on anybody. However, he has a lot to answer for up there when he runs into those millions of angry Brooklynites who he deserted in October, 1957.
You have just got to be a rabid Brooklynite to write such a thing. I hope O'Malley doesn't suffer because I don;t wish that on anybody. However, he has a lot to answer for up there when he runs into those millions of angry Brooklynites who he deserted in October, 1957.
You don't have to be a rabid Brooklynite to call a piece of shit just that. The Smithsonian Institute did a study several years ago and found that the rape of Brooklyn by this sub human was the most important thing that turned people off to baseball. It showed that no matter how well you supported a team, and there are many people who just don't understand that the Brooklyn franchise was the biggest money maker in the National League even as late as the year of the franchise transfer, you are at the whim of sick selfish minds who are just interested in themselves.
No it is not too much to root for O'Malley to rot in hell. I just hope he continues to suffer through eternity for what he did.
The story is, however, that O'Malley didn't want to run. All he wanted was the newly vacant lot at the Atlantic Terminal Renewal Area, and he'd build a stadium with his own money. The fans from Long Island could get there directly on the LIRR. City land and infrastructure, team-built stadium. That's essentially the deal O'Malley got in L.A. I'd take that deal for the Yankees and Mets right now.
Robert Moses, however, didn't want such a traffic heavy use in a traffic choked location, and he thought that people would want to drive. So he, legend has it, helped to block the deal. Later, he used public dollars to build Shea Stadium -- with just one subway line a long ride away from the homes of most subway riders, but lots of parking and highways.
It looks as if Moses was right once again. Rememeber that we're talking about the late 1950's. Suburbanization was in full swing, as was the love affair with the automobile. Transit use, and city life in general, was something to be abandoned as part of one's past. It is indeed possible that suburbanites would have avoided a stadium at Atlantic Terminal despite its easy transit access.
Today, of course, things have changed. People don't look at transit with as much scorn, and they certainly aren't as starry-eyed when it comes to the automobile. A stadium at Atlantic Terminal quite likely would be a big draw for suburban residents, and most of them would readily use transit to get there. Unfortunately, while Moses was an astute observer of the contemporary mood, he couldn't predict the future.
(Unfortunately, while Moses was an astute observer of the contemporary
mood, he couldn't predict the future. )
Moses problem is that having observed the present in his early years, he couldn't see the future when it arrived, and he became an obstacle to rather than an enabler of broader social forces.
The same may be said of the opponents who eventually replaced him, who are NIMBYng everything to deal and diverting resources away from public works today. Their time passed more than 20 years ago, and they are killing us.
At least you New Yorkers can at least claim some consolation to that sorry state of affiars of the Dodgers leaving. Today they are nothing more than a middling mediocrity with the dumbest fans in the world and no future whatsoever. They are a sad case that deserves all the vitriol you can shove at them.
Thanks for the baseball stat.....my Dad was a Dodgers fan, at least until they left Bklyn. Even though I am from Brooklyn originally and grew up a Mets fan taking the 7 train (until they traded Seaver in 1977 and have hated them since), I now root against those men in blue since I live in the Bay Area. Go Giants!
Baseball and subways.....always linked. :-)
Question: I grew up in Sheepshead Bay on the Q and then D trains. If Ebbetts was still there, how would I have gotten there?
ScottinSF
Question: I grew up in Sheepshead Bay on the Q and then D trains. If Ebbetts was still there, how would I have gotten there?
Ebbets Field was served by the Prospect Park Station.
Right! And let's not hear how you could also get there on the damned IRT. Ebbets Field by subway was by the Brighton Express. The anticipation was terrific. The stop before was 7th Avenue and the time seemed to go on forever before we got to Prospect Park Station. But we finally emerged into God's own sunshine and we knew all was right with the world and we were in for a great day. Memories like that are priceless.
>>>"Ebbets Field by subway was by the Brighton Express."<<<
SBF, from most areas in the Apple by Brighton Express, yes.
But if you lived in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, "The Garden Spot Of
The World", it was the Lorimer Street Car, yes trolley car thru
1948, then the B48 ETB to see them BUMS. Sorry Fred, no need
for us Garden Spotters to go to Manhattan to connect with the
Brighton Express.
Fred, who was them BUMS named after? They was the Brooklyn
Trolley Dodgers for the fans attending Ebbets Field dodging
the Trolley Cars. Prior to 1945, it would have been the
Franklin Avenue Cars from Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza. Even
though the Tompkins and Lorimer cars passed by on Empire Boulevard.
;| ) Sparky
That's GreenPERNT (OR as the IND abbreviates it: GREENPT)
If you wanted to take the IRT to Ebbets Fld you would use Sterling Street station and walk a couple of blocks over.
wayne
>>>That's GreenPERNT (OR as the IND abbreviates it: GREENPT)<<<
Absolutely correct, I's from the PERNT.
;| ) Sparky
I had a shop teacher named Mr. Fishburg when I attended PS1 Queens. He always pronounced it pernt and he came from Brooklyn's Williamsburg area which was then heavily Jewish. One of the things about Greenpoint pointed out what I have believed all along about Brooklyn's baseball fans in the 40's into the late 50's when the Bums left town. Greenpoint had an Italian section and the division was close to equal between Yankee and Dodger fans, but the Poles, Lithuanians, Greeks, Jews, and others were practically 100% Dodger fans. My fellow Dagos loved DiMag, Scooter, Yogi, Vic and Billy. I despised the Italian Yankees more than any others on that team. To me Rizzuto was a sawed off little squirt who couldn't carry Pee Wee Reese's jock, and to me Yogi was a dork--period. Billy Martin was a punk and Jolton Joe acted like he was from Heaven.
ROTFL, :| )
Is the PS1 Queens, at 21th Street just North of Jackson Avenue,
Long Island City.
;| ) Sparky
Yes it is. I have many happy memories of the place but the school no longer exists. I wonder where the kids from K-8 now go to school? Is it PS4 or PS83?, or did they build a new school. We moved to a better neighborhood in 1953 so I did not go to PS1 my last year in New York but rather PS10, which sucked.
Fred,
PS1, the building does exist. It's something to do with artists.
That's why I asked, if you meant Long Island City. Pass by it
many times, but haven't ventured to see what it is all about.
Maybe, we stop by and see if "Railfans" are welcomed? >G<
;| ) Sparky
It's a art gallery of sorts, and hosts a weekly Saturday party w/DJ's, dancing, etc...called the "Saturday Warm Up". It's regarded as pretty much the hippest thing going.
Of course, the Dodgers had Skoonj himself, Carl Furillo. Campy had Italian blood from his father's side.
Some of the younger Italian kids in my neighborhood were, in fact, Dodger fans as contrasted with their older siblings and parents. I know in 1947 when I first became a little baseball nut the Dodgers had their share of Dagos on the team; Ralph Branca, Carl Furillo, Al Gionfriddo, Vic Lombardi, and Cookie Lavagetto, but it always seemed the Yankees had more and better players of Italian extraction which pissed me off no end. As far as Campanella is concerned, most considered him black which is why he was kept out of Organized Ball until 1946. But to Italian kids, he was at least half Italian and to me he was Italian. Campanella is as Italian as linguini. I always insisted to my friends that they must consider Campy at least a part Dago. In 1953, the year before I moved to California, the Dodgers also had Wayne Belardi and Bill Antonello.
Sal Maglie came over to the Dodgers in 1956. Of course, for years he was the most hated man in Brooklyn while with the Giants.
And in the last week of the 1956 season with Brooklyn just battling with Milwaukee for the NL pennant, he pitched a Maglie pitched a no hitter for the Dodgers against I believe the Phillies!
The 1956 season had a great ending. Brooklyn trailed Milwaukee by 1 game going into the final weekend. Milwaukee was finishing with a three game series in St. Louis; Brooklyn had a three game series against Pittsburgh. The Friday night game in Brooklyn was rained out making a Saturday double header necessary. Milwaukee lost in St. Louis Friday night so the Dodgers came into the Saturday double header 1/2 behind Milwaukee.
After the Dodgers won the first game, remember this was the era before electronic score boards with message boards, the workers at Ebbets Field took the Milwaukee pennant off the centre field flag pole which belonged to the first place team (the pennants were placed in the order of the league standings) and put the Brooklyn pennant onto that flag pole. The Dodgers won the second game of the double header which featured a near riot when Jackie Robinson was called out at second base on an attempted steal and the fans waiving their white handkerchiefs at the umpires which caused the umpires to threaten a forfeit. When Warren Spahn lost a heartbreaking 1-0 game on Saturday night in St. Louis, the Dodgers had a 1 game lead.
On Sunday, the Dodgers jumped out to an early lead and then held on thanks to a magnificent catch by Duke Snider against the centre field wall. And that was how the Dodgers won the last pennant they were to ever win as the Dodgers have ceased to exist after 1957.
We saw that double-header out here on the "Game of the Week" on CBS. It was one of the rare times they put a double header on the GOTW. On Sunday, Duke Snider hit two homers to ice Don Newcombe's 27th victory. Snider led the league in homers with 43, the last time a Dodger has led the Senior Circuit in that category. Newcombe won the First Cy Young Award and the league's MVP.
Greenpoint? I heard it called the "Garden Spot of America" when I was a kid, although for reasons I have never been able to fathom. I remember there was a big Polish area there and wonder if it still is. It is true there were many ways to get to Ebbets Field, but the most frequently traveled route and the one most talked about by the fans and players was the #1 Brighton Express, the train that carried the number of Dodger Captain, Pee Wee Reese.
>>>Greenpoint? I heard it called the "Garden Spot of America" when I was a kid, although for reasons I have never been able to fathom. I remember there was a big Polish area there and wonder if it still is.<<<
Well, Greenpoint may no longer be the "Garden Spot of America", but
it is definitely "Krakow on the East River". A visit to this hood,
will find the basic language spoken is not English or Spanish.
Bakerys, Delicatessens, Butchers. Welcome to a flair of Eastern
Europe.
Why not schedule a walk down Manhattan Avenue from Greenpoint to
Nassau on Monday or Tuesday next week and see for yourself. I'll
guide you thru the neighborhood.
;| ) Sparky
Correction, the "the" should have been deleted.
;| ) Sparky
If I can get Steve8AVEXP and the others to go along with it, why not? Steve is Eastern European descent (Lithuanian) and he might go for it. Let me know how to contact you.
I'd be curious to see Williamsburg, which used to be virtually all-Lithuanian, but it's not very high on my list of things to see.
I know of at least one very fine family style resturant that Sparky introduced some of us to. And he is right, I didn't hear much english spoken there. Worth the time !
Then we will play it all by ear. Remember, I'm flexible and will agree to just about anything.
SBF,
I'll be with you guys on Monday & Tuesday.
That is if they don't put me in a padded room after Sunday's
pow..wow at Branford.
;| ) Sparky
Is Howard 'Stern,' do eagles dare,' does a bear 'go in the woods,' is Greenpoint 'Polish?' When I started PS248 'SubSchool,' my only regret was not having time to explore the Manhattan bypass I used for the trip to CI. Life since September 11th has almost gotten back to normal and the opportunities to explore my city in off-time are now coming up. Instructor Phil pointed out to us that the end window on the fourth floor was a 'picture window' framing the WTC 'twin towers.'
All I can remember is the smouldering pile of ash. CI Peter
I'll go! I used to work in Northside (Bedford & N.4th) back in 82-84.
We will have to dodge the ox carts, no? :o>
wayne
Well, if we go to that area, we might as well go over a few more blocks to N. 5th and Havemeyer to my old stomping ground, Annunciation Parish.
Well, the intersection of Kingsland and Humbouldt, right in front of St. Stanislaus Kostka Roman Catholic Church is named Pope John Paul II Square, in honor of a visit His Holiness made there in the 80s.
wayne
OOPS that should be DRIGGS not Kingsland.
wayne
Greenpoint is almost 100% Russian by the I mean Ukranian and Checknian,almost all are Muslim.
Ukrainians are not Russians. Checnyans might be from the Russian Federation, but they're not ethnically Russian.
Also, there aren't really any Ukrainian Muslims, since if there are Muslims in the Ukraine, they wouldn't really be considered Ukrainian by other Ukrainians.
You have to be very careful about generalizing/stereotyping when it comes to ethnic backgrounds. You can really insult someone who is ethnic Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian, or Lithuanian by calling them a Russian. Same thing with calling someone who's Portugese a Spaniard (sp). Bad choice.
Blame the Seaver trade on M. Donald Grant. Seaver wanted to renegotiate his contract and Grant wouldn't hear of it. Not to mention Dick Young was on Grant's side. Shea Stadium came to be known as Grant's Tomb after that trade. Whitey Herzog, who worked in the Met organization when they won it all in 1969, once told Grant to his face he didn't know beans about baseball.
If Hodges had remained alive, Seaver would have spent his entire career with the Mets.
Steve: Just hold tight Monday and Tuesday. I'm going to try to find the waiting room for the railroad (Is is the LI Railroad?) on Friday when I first get in so I have no trouble finding you guys on Mon and Tues. I'm going to railfan with heypaul on Friday, team up with you Saturday evening for Mass and dinner, then Bob on Sunday, and you and whoever on Monday and Tuesday. Wednesday my plane leaves at 8:10, so I have some time that day. I'm really looking forward to it.
COuld you give me the details of the meeting point Monday 10/14 again?
--Mark
Penn Station, LIRR main waiting area (the one at the 7th Ave. end of that long connecting corridor) between 8:00 and 8:30 AM.
It would be great if you could join us Mark. Of course, I find have to find the waiting room myself or the guys will take off without me. We are supposed to meet between 8:00-8:30. Hope to see you there, or is you hope I find my way there?
I have an idea: suppose we go to Penn Station after dinner on Saturday and I can show you where the main LIRR waiting area is? I need to check out the NJ Transit concourse anyway since I'm going out to Jersey on Wednesday.
That sounds like a helluva plan. This was there can be no slip up on my part. The only caveat would be if it is inconvenient for you I could check it out myself either on Friday or Saturday morning. Let me know. I still plan on going to Mass with you so let me know also where we should meet in the afternoon on Saturday.
We could meet by the church itself, either in front or in the vestibule. Mass is at 5:00. IIRC St. Francis Xavier is between 5th and 6th Aves. on W. 16th or 17th St.
That's a go. We will meet in front of the Church. The only remaining question is where do we meet up with Doug Wengeroff and his wife. He's the one who organized that railfan trip for me a year ago on April 1. I have to tell him. Where do you want to eat dinner. What kind of food do you want? Let me know. I'll be calling you this afternoon.
Preferably nothing spicy. Am fond of Italian cuisine; Lombardi's or Taormina's in Little Italy would be fine. I'm staying late at work today; should be home by 5-5:30 PM Mountain Time.
BTW, St. Francis Xavier is a good-sized church; you can't miss it.
According to http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/41_ftr.pdf
F runs on the E between 47-50 Roosevelt. Wait!, Q serves the Lexington Av-63rd, Roosevelt Island, and 21 St Queensbridges Stations. Is that referring the former orange Q? Cause it doesn't sound like the Q from http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnq.htm. I'm really confused here.
No, the Q will serve those stations and run down Broadway.
OH MAN! I thought that will be an orange Q reapparence and I just loaded a new roll of films into my camera for that G.O. Shot. OH WELL! Back to the yellow Q :(
I saw the train again today, Friday. It was headed westbound thru Forest Hills about 1:20. Returned eastbound about 2:00.
I wondering if this is one test train or two test trains running all over the place ? Car numbers would help.
Bill "Newkirk"
I had the same thought tonight as I saw it go east through Valley Stream (on the Babylon tracks) at about 8:15 PM. Still, I haven't seen any indication that it has been in two places at the same time, so I suspect it is just the one 6 car set.
CG
...and as quickly as that I stand corrected. I just noticed a railroad.net post which indicated that the train was heading east through Bellmore at 10:15 last night. I saw a set headed eastbount through Forest Hills at about 10:45, so it appears that there are indeed at least two sets of cars being tested.
CG
a testing train could make it from bellmore to forest hills in 30 min.
Yes, but the train at Bellmore was heading east (i.e. away from Forest Hills). The train at Forest Hills was also heading east 30 minutes later.
CG
Guys, I just feel that I have to vent someplace.
This has been a very sad week here. On Monday afternoon, my neighbor, Bill, 74, who also has been retired for a number of years, dropped in to visit. He normally visits weekly. I was home alone at the time and we sat in the kitchen, and talked for about an hour. I then took him to my basement trainroom to show him my MTH subway set. He collapsed on my trainroom floor, apparently from a heart attack.
When I couldn't wake him, I called 911. I know nothing about CPR, but with guidance from the 911 operator I did what I could until the medics arrived and took over. After a period they had him breathing with mechanical help, and took him to the hospital.
He was in CCU for three days in a coma. The family was able to get my wife and I in to see him on Wednesday evening. His eyes were open, but did not focus. The final CAT scans on Thursday resulted in the disconnection of life support. He passed away about an hour later.
Each member of his family has thanked me for my efforts in giving them three more days with their husband and father, yet I still feel there should have been something more I could have done, that he might still be with us today.
He left a wife and three grown children. He was my friend, and good neighbor for almost forty years, and I miss him.
How does someone get a grip on their feelings and emotions, after being a part of a tragedy like this?
(How does someone get a grip on their feelings and emotions, after being a part of a tragedy like this?)
What can I say? Life is a job, and a tough one.
When we were nailed by a really bad tragedy (our first child stillborn), we were crushed. All we could do is keep doing our routine -- the job of our life -- as best as we could until good things of equal weight came along to balance the bad ones. I couldn't fold up because I still people relying on me.
Same thing after the WTC disaster. We staggered home and were basically zombies for a week. We were so stunned that we didn't even vacuume up the dust which had blown in our open windows until a week later. We just hung out on the block with our neighbors and waited to find out who was killed. But eventually we had to clean our house, take care of our kids and go back to work.
The tragedies don't go away, but in the long run, maybe you get to even.
First of all, you are to be commended for doing what you could to save your friend. It didn't work out, but even highly trained rescuers do not succeed in most cases of a massive heart attack like that. It's natural to feel upset about it, but don't beat yourself up over it.
If you want to learn CPR, contact your local chapter of the American Heart Association or hospital emergency department. You can take a "Heartsaver" or first aid course where they can teach you CPR, and also the Heimlich maneuver to help someone choking on food. It's not hard to do once you've practiced it.
My condolences and best wishes to you.
I'd like to humbly add my sympathies as well. There isn't a whole lot you can do, and victims of a heart attack that severe rarely survive. I'm sure once Brother Elias passes through here, he can, from his own experience as a paramedic, tell you how bad the averages are.
That his family had the gift of three days to "settle up" with him is no shabby accomplishment either, and that he was still breathing by the time the ambulance arrived is something you should feel very good about doing for them all.
Life is a gift, one that should be enjoyed while the gift lasts. In a situation like this, you get an opportunity to once again see what is really valuable.
My condolences to your friend's passing. The pain of his sudden passing in your prescence may be around for some time. It all depends how bad you take it. Your attempt to save his life was a noble gesture to a friend and we here at SubTalk commend you for it. Just don't be overcome with guilt about not doing enough, you did plenty. Both my parents died of heart attacks so I know how you feel.
If you need to vent some more by e-mail, I'm sure some of us here have a sympathetic ear. If you are a praying man, maybe some prayers may help bring some comfort to you. I think his spirit was aware of your attempt to save his life and is aware of your feelings now. Hang in there and if you need us, send us a line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hang in there, Karl. You did what you could for your friend, but ultimately it is in G-d's hands.
When your friend was stricken you were sharing one of the most precious gifts you could give to anyone: your time, your enthusiasm, your friendship. Keep doing that. And when you do, I know that your friend, wherever he is now, will be smiling.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is no answer for this. You did what you could do under the circumstances and you cannot be faulted. I survived 911, never knew how it would affect me and started TA a few days later. Crew member chastised my work habits....'You're working too hard and you're gonna die on the job.' My reply: 'If I do, I DIE amongst my friends.' It is not necessary for me to go any further with this. CI Peter
Karl,
There is no one answer, or right or wrong way to deal with tragedy. Time does heal wounds and hurts, but how long it takes can not be measured or prescribed for each individual. The hurt will dull over time, and the better memories will surface and push further away those hurts.
Too many people believe that physical objects are what is important to leave behind, however, the most powerful and precious thing a person can leave behind for loved ones and friends is memories.
I'm not saying for those who are suffering this is to be their answer, but I can only relate what helps me.
Mike AKA "Hot Lunch!" Herer
When you do not know what to do but ask for help and make a concerted effort...on the scene, you're the best. I fix trains and remain stupid.
Mike: You dine CI cusine? CI Peter
You did well, Karl.
I lost my mother within hours to a heart attack. A heart attack isn't really a sudden thing; it builds up from heart disease over a long period of time and by the time a massive heart attack occurs, even skilled doctors can't always help, even under the best circumstances.
There isn't any magic to make you feel better right away, but in time, you'll be able to appreciate remembering that your good friend spent his last conscious moments enjoying your company.
Over time, the sad parts fade, and we remember the joy and pleasure of all the years of good things.
There's not really anything I can add that already hasn't been said by other SubTalkers here, but I just thought I'd add my condolences. I guess the only real way to "get a grip" on something like this is to just give it time. There will be good days and bad days ahead, but it does get better in time.
Let us know if there's anything more specific we can do for you, other than offering words of support and our prayers.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
Karl,
I wish you (and your neighbor's family) peace and grace. You did all you could do when the tragedy struck. I lost my father to a massive heart attack(s) in 1969. He was only 62, and I still miss him. The sorrow will diminish, and you will have the happy memories to ease the occaisional pain.
Karl,
You gave more than first aid to Bill.
You gave more than three days to Bills family.
You gave Bill comfort and shelter from being alone at a milestone of his life. He was fortunate to be with friend.
avid
I think that you should consider yourself a hero. Though you couldn't save his life, you at least made the attempt to save someone who was in trouble by getting help right-a-way. I don't think that you can have any guilt in at least getting help for someone who needed help right-a-way and at least in this way you tried to save his life. Even under the best of circumstance, you can't save everyone's life when they are in trouble. Sometimes there is nothing that anyone can do to save someones life.
Amen
#3 West End Jeff
If it's any consolation, it is very unlikely that your lack of knowledge of CPR made any difference at all. The "success rate" of CPR, even when administered by well-trained people, is very low, somehing in the order of two or three percent.
Don't blame yourself over this. Its not your fault that you didn't have the CPR experience. You did the best you can.
That is realy unfortunate.
No one said that life was ever easy or hard, for that matter.
Each day, we face problems, obstacles and things that sometimes just overcome us.
I hope you feel better. Cheer up. Much better that wallowing in your own self-pity. Has an effect on your mind, ya know.
Karl, I know from some of our communications, how close you were. My profound sympathies. I can feel your anguish more than you know. I've been living a similar trauma. Two weeks ago my mother-in-law felt a little weak. My wife took her to the Dr. In the Dr's office she had a heart attack and suffered severe brain injury due to lack of oxygen. After a week it was clear from all of the tests that she would remain comatose for as long as she lived. My wife requested that no heroic steps be made to revive her should she have another attack. Her heart continues to beat and she continues to breathe.
It's been another long week of constant vigil. She lives on with only nutrients and oxygen.
I share this with you for two reasons. First, my mother-in-law's Dr. was on the scene immediately. Despite his years of medical training & practice, there was nothing he could do. You didn't stand a chance and were a good friend for trying.
Second, It was a blessing that your friend went quickly and painlessly. Trust me - I know first hand.
Karl,
I cannot say or add anything more than has already been expressed
by others here.
Living thru similar circumstances twice already in my life, with
my Mom and more recently with my Bride, Lucille, but not Heart
Attack but Stroke.
Mom lived on for ten years, thank the Lord, even thought the later
were in a coma, she had a strong heart. At the end, we just waited
till they notified us, it was over.
As for Lucille, recognized the symptons immediately and thanks be
to "Rudy Guliani" for merging the NYC 911 Medical Services into the
FDNY, it made the difference for her. 98% recovery.
Because of what many did for Mom, is why I devote many voluntary
hours to Trolley Museums. Just not my thing to volunteer at a
medical type facility.
Karl, you were there for your friend in the end, that's what counts.
May He Rest In Peace.
John "Sparky" Sikorski
Doing what you could was the best thing that you could do, and that is better than what many folks out there would have done in a similar situation. Remember the good times, and cherish the fond memories you had with your friend. The superheores exist in the comic books, and anybody looking for one had better go over to the local store to buy one. At least you tried, and that is the main thing. Rest easy.
Just another note. My first response did not even consider that you could possibly feel responsible for your friend's death, only that you feel bad about your loss and the loss by his family. Seeing some other responses, and re-reading your post, I see that such a concern might enter into your sadness.
But you shouldn't feel that way. Every day I see irresponsible behavior, people who roll along doing whatever it is they do as if they were the only "person" around. Roaring up the street in their cars. Nearly running people over on a subway platform. Etc. In contrast, you did all you could for your friend, and that's all you can do.
As I said, I learned the hard way that life is a job, at age 30. I'd imagine that people found out earlier in harsher times, but I didn't. The customs of being with your friends and family in death as a central obligation make more sense to me now, and you were there.
I want to thank each and every one of you for your posts and Emails of condolences, thoughts and advice.
I am not a stranger to grief, having been with each of my parents as they passed away after long terminal illnesses, but this seemed so different since Bill seemed to be in reasonably good health up to the time of the attack. I feel I should have been able to do more to help him fight it. My pastor spoke to me tonight, advising me that it was a massive attack, and there was nothing more I could have done.
Bill will be laid to rest on Wednesday.
Thank you all again for your thoughts and words!
Karl B
>>Bill seemed to be in reasonably good health up to the time of the attack.<<
That usually is the thing that upsets us all. My father died while working at 59 years of age of a massive heart attack, yet seemed in resonably good health.
My cousin was killed in a car accident on Route 202 near Paoli,PA. some ten years ago. He was finished with work and heading to the gym to work out, when traffic suddenly slowed and lost control of his car on a rain slicked road surface. He was forty two years of age.
These two deaths have one thing on common. They both died suddenly, that was a major shock to me. I was in a state of shock, just as you are now. The shock will wear off with time, so please bear in mind although you will heal in time, you will never forget your friend Bill. May God bless.
Bill "Newkirk"
Mike Saltzstein who operated the B&B Carousell at Coney Island was in apparently good health. when he suffered an apparent massive heart attack that took his life while he slept in the early morning hours of July 4th 2001. As some of you might remember it was quite a shock to me when I heard the news about his death the following night and I was quite hurt over it. Time though has healed the wounds and though he is now gone, I remember him for the pleasure he had with me everytime I saw him at the B&B Carousell.
One should also remember that none of us are created perfect either. Like perhaps all of us I have a slight flaw and that is my minor cleft palate that causes me a little pain every now and then. I'm thankful that it was minor, otherwise I would have needed surgery for it and that wouldn't have been any fun. I also have a few cleft related issues, but none of them are that significant. Like most of us, I have to manage with it and I'm fortunately doing very well with it. I still have a little pain from my cleft palate, but it isn't that terrible and I won't let it stop me from doing anything. Otherwise, I'm just another human being.
May god bless us all.
#3 West End Jeff
'Whereby the Grace of the Lord go we.' CI Peter
One thing I wanted to mention to you (CI Peter "On The Juice") that if it weren't for the late Mike Saltzstein, the B&B Carousell that is the last remaining wooden carousel at Coney Island wouldn't be there. Though now Mike Saltzstein is gone, he left behind a wonderful treasure that will hopefully be cherished for years to come. True I have my small problem with my minor cleft palate and the pain that goes with it. I'm doing well despite it all and I never let it get in the way of enjoying the rails. Plus, if it weren't for me, there wouldn't be a picture of R-33 Car No. 8888 posted on this website. We all contribute something worthy to civilization in one form or another.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, if you met me and I showed you my drivers license, you would say the license was bogus, rightfully. My TA ID is up to date...the difference between the two is less than two years. Some of the crew thinks I'm gaining weight but my pants inseam does not lie. The biggest worry I have at my age is how long can I keep up the harried pace doing 'troubles?' There I go by the Lords Graces. CI Peter
Most people's photos or their driver's license look like those of convicts at best. Some of them do look bogus. However, does a picture ever lie? We could have a debate about that.
#3 West End Jeff
What about the woman who demanded that her driver's licence picture be taken with her burqa on?
Anyway that is off topic...
My condolences to Karl and his neighbor's family; I know all too well that there are no words that can do justice to what they're going through right now.
Bill was cremated, and his remains were laid to rest this afternoon at 1 PM. It was a very nice graveside service.
The family seems to be doing well under the circumstances. I am concerned about Bill's widow because she relied on him a lot. Her health is not the best, and she will be completely alone now that the kids have returned to their own homes and families. The neighbors will be checking on her often.
I would like to thank each of you again for your support through your posts and Emails. They have helped me through a very tough time.
It is understandable that you are concerned about your late friend's widow. Hopefully they'll be good neighbors and watch over her.
#3 West End Jeff
Things like this definitely make you appreciate life so much more, and not be uptight about everything. Makes one want to live life to the fullest.....you can be here one day, then gone the very next day!! Sorry to hear about your friends' passing.....I know all too well about close personal losses!! :-(
My sincere condolences Karl. I would share a couple of thoughts with you:
My mother died of cancer last year, aged 75. While I miss her, my mother had a good life, enriched towards the end with the joy of grandchildren. We all have to go sometime, and 74 is not an unreasonable age to pass on to the hereafter.
Your feelings of guilt about “I could have done something more” are not uncommon. Many people who assist another person with a negative outcome believe that somehow they are to blame.
CPR has a low survival rate. The situations where it does better include a relatively young patient. If the outcome is unsuccessful, all that happens is that someone who died stays dead. In your particular circumstance, you kept enough of a person alive for medical technology to maintain breathing on life support for a few days. That alone, gave his family time to say goodbye.
The positive part of CPR, which is why we try it, is that if it does succeed, the benefits are enormous: a human being gets another chance at life! So, it’s worth trying, every time.
Practicing CPR can help. You can find courses sponsored by the Red Cross, the American Heart Association amongst others. If you live in Central New Jersey, I can arrange CPR/First Aid classes at Rutgers in New Brunswick.
Finally, you may want to have a word at the hospital where your friend passed away. There is counselling available for people who have unsuccessfully tried CPR, which will help reassure you that it’s not your fault.
Best wishes,
John
Karl, I am so sorry. My condolences. You did all you could.
--Mark
With the accident of the AirTrain at Kennedy Airport, I thought up this idea here. Do you guys think it is possible to convert the AirTrain line to subway standards, connect it to the Rockaway A line and reinstate the JFK Express service via this connection? From Manhattan to all terminals and terminating at Jamaica. Of course, extra fair required. I would put the price for JFK Express $3. And R46 or R68 cars would cover the service, no R143's.
What do you guys think?
To convert the Air Train to subway standards would take untold millions of dollars to tear up what's already there. Everything but the track gauge itself is different from NY subway operations - signals, traction motors, etc. Air Train cars are 60' long with a maximum of four cars since each station platform is 240' - so even theoretically only 60' rolling stock (R32, R38, R40/42, R143) could run there.
Doesn't sound likely. More likely we'll see a siginificant delay in Air Train opening so the accident can be thoroughly investigated and corrective measures taken.
Everything but the track gauge itself is different from NY subway operations - signals, traction motors, etc.
So? Rip out the reaction rail. Leave it in place, even, it won't get in the way.
It's not likely anyway, but not for this reason.
Mark
No to all your questions, and MTA long ago declined to exercise its option to do it. Go into the archives and find out how many times this topic has been chewed over.
Why do you think this accident is so significant? While I mourn the loss of the test train's driver, this accident isn't shutting the system down.
Yet, with all of the physical impediments to hooking into the subway -- not to mention the political and legal ones -- they have made a provision in the guideway over the parking lot for doing just that. Or could they be thinking of sharing part of the old Rockaway Beach LIRR ROW with the subway and extending airtrain in that direction at some point in the future?
"Yet, with all of the physical impediments to hooking into the subway -- not to mention the political and legal ones -- they have made a provision in the guideway over the parking lot for doing just that. "
I am not aware of any aspect of the guideway which is designed for use with the subway. Perhaps yopu could explain or display exactly what it was you saw and why you think it's subway-related? Could it be simply a provision for a future AirTrain storage or layup track?
"Or could they be thinking of sharing part of the old Rockaway Beach LIRR ROW with the subway and extending airtrain in that direction at some point in the future?"
No, they're not. That's a Subtalk fantasy, nothing more.
Any "intermodal" use of the LIRR would begin at Jamaica, not at Howard Beach. There has been talk about that at the PA; it's just talk right now, no $$$.
My comment is based on remarks by the tourguide during the recent ERA tour of the JFK Airtrain. The not-really-much-of-a-plan would require design and acquisition of a fleet of hybrid vehicles capable of operating compatibly on both subway and Airtrain tracks at some point in the indefinite future. As the subway and Airtrain use the same gauge tracks, the major design obstacles I see in creating a hybrid would be 3rd rail shoes, ability to use both systems' voltages, and vehicle dimensions that will allow them to platform in both systems. Of course, the Hybrid would have to use conventional electric motors instead of LIMs.
As for the "provision" itself, I have not seen it myself and don't know what the details are. When it was mentioned, it sounded like something that was done purely on speculation and without any reason to believe that it would ever be used. For the foreseeable future, It probably has about the same chance of being used as the provision for extending the BMT local tracks Northwest under Central Park from 57th Street. At the time I took the tourguide at his word and didn't question whether he knew what he was talking about. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. Perhaps someone else on this Board was on the tour and heard what was said and can add to my limited recollection.
Regarding the contact shoe thing about adaptation to usage of both systems third-rail voltages, I say why not do like the AEM-7, with it's ability to operate on both 11,000-volt NEC (NYC-WAS, NH-BOS) catenary and Metro North New Haven Line 12,500-volt catenary, create a shoe that can operate on the 600-volt NYCT system and it's own ROW third-rail voltage. It's nothing impossible to develop, so why not try it? I think it has potential.
You're right that multi-voltage equipment is not too uncommon, but the shoe problem may also have a physical/geometric side to it. While both systems use over-running shoes, the question still remains whether the 3rd rails are in the same position relative to the trucks or will the shoe position have to be adjustable.
"As for the "provision" itself, I have not seen it myself and don't know what the details are."
There is no provision. It's railbuff fantasy, that's all.
Thisa is a pointless discussion. The connection to the subway is now here, though it will not be used until the PA has corrected whatever deficiency (structural or operational) led to the tragic accident on the guideway).
Let's move on, shall we?
As the subway and Airtrain use the same gauge tracks, the major design obstacles I see in creating a hybrid would be 3rd rail shoes,
No need: the JFK Airtrain already has the familiar overrunning third rail exactly where it should be.
Mark
Then why didn't they just build an extension of the existing subway line from Howard Beach to JFK instead of building a dedicated rail line that New York City subway cars cannot use. It would have been cheaper and easier to build an extension of the existing subway line rather than to build the "Airtrain" line.
#3 West End Jeff
West End Jeff,
Yu've been posting long enough here to know there's probably 100 miles of threads on this subject. Please read them.
The basics:
The MTA has a ROW and the option to extend the A train into JFK. They elected not to do so because the 75 foot subway cars they were running on the A would not transit around the terminals very well, because they did not want to put yet another branch onto the A line, which would negatively affect service to the Rockaways if that line would run with reasonable frequency. A third reason is that, since the JFK Express (the super-express) is no longer a viable option, the MTA would have been investing a considerable amount of money into extending a line which is already a very long ride from Manhattan. While the newest subway car purchases eliminated the first reason, the second and third reasons remain.
"It would have been cheaper and easier to build an extension of the existing subway line rather than to build the "Airtrain" line."
Wrong. The subway extension would have been at least equally expensive and would not have provided a connection to the LIRR. AirTrain cost about $250 million permile, and TA construction costs are considerably higher.
Can we not beat this dead horse again? Go back and look at previous threads so we can discuss fresh topics.
AirTrain cost about $250 million permile, and TA construction costs are considerably higher.
I wonder why? I would have thought that, with the LIM parts in the roadbed, AirTrain would be more. Is there that much less graft at the PA?
"I wonder why? I would have thought that, with the LIM parts in the roadbed, AirTrain would be more."
It's because AirTrain is almost 100% elevated and new NYCT projects are 100% underground, usually also interworking with existing lines that can't be shut down for more than a weekend.
NYCT projects are underground because they happen to be underground. There's no law, policy, or anything else that would prevent NYCT from deciding to build on or above ground should the engineers decide that's the way to go (barring the usual NIMBYs, of course...).
David
>>> There's no law, policy, or anything else that would prevent NYCT from deciding to build on or above ground <<<
I am afraid "anything else" includes NIMBYS and the reality of political pressure.
Tom
True, generally.
However, note that ground construction from the airport terminals to Howard Beach did not face any kind of NIMBY pressure.
Yes...however, there were no BYs (backyards) in the area for people to be against the train running through.
David
Correct. That's why.
Would the Port Authority been willing to have make the line compatible with MTA equipment if they had to?
#3 West End Jeff
Would the Port Authority been willing to have make the line compatible with MTA equipment if they had to?
They did have to.
It's still far more likely that a hybrid vehicle would use any possible interconnection than a conventional LIRR train.
Mark
Oneseat ride info:
http://www.nylovesbiz.com/Press/2000/oneseat2.htm
Tanks for posting that.
I certainly have no objection to people spending private funds to discuss the "one seat ride." For the moment, I'm content to have the passenger transfer tax money and public funds complete the deployment of AirTrain and fix up Howard Beach and Jamaica. After that, we've got enough on the plate. But anyone is free to spend private capital on this.
>>> Oneseat ride info: <<<
An interesting historical note from 2 ½ years ago.
Tom
What they could do is disconnect the Howard Beach and Van Wyck branches of the Airtrain from the Central Terminal Area, thus allowing for the conversion of the Howard beach Airtrain branch to Subway standards and the Van Wyck to LIRR standards.
Then you run the Subway over the Airtrain's Howard Beach branch to Terminal 1, where folks can then transfer to the Central Terminal Airtrain (loop) if they are heading to a terminal other than Terminal 1.
The same with the LIRR, run the LIRR over the Airtrain's Van Wyck branch to the new AA terminal being built that will consolidate Terminals 8 & 9. If folks are headed to another terminal besides the AA terminal they can just transfer to the Central Terminal area Airtrain.
Gets folks alot closer to the Terminals.
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/link1.htm
Then you run the Subway over the Airtrain's Howard Beach branch to Terminal 1, where folks can then transfer to the Central Terminal Airtrain (loop) if they are heading to a terminal other than Terminal 1.
For what purpose?
People would do their transferring on-airport rather than at Jamaica or Howard Beach. Other than that (and the likely change in fare structure, which has yet to be announced anyway), this plan works exactly the same way as what's being built.
It also unnecessarily complicates the routings of both LIRR and NYCTA, unless the trains are run as shuttles, in which case you've created a three-seat ride.
Mark
Complete waste of money. People still have to transfer to get to a terminal - so it makes no difference where that transfer happens.
While I mourn the loss of the test train's driver, this accident isn't shutting the system down.
Of course not. You can't shut down something that isn't running in the first place. :-)
I was wrong (the PA spokeperson was wrong in saying that the speed was no more than 30 mph) about the low speed of the train.
See the story here: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-air1005,0,2293688.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
Now the other posters who assumed or speculated about higher speeds have their scenarios more plausible. But NTSB still has not determined the relationship of speed to the curve to the accident etc.
Actually, the speed was at least 55mph, in manual operation. This gives a bit more relevance to the now deceased operator's comments about high speeds. It may also point some blame to him (maybe)
Some arithmetic here.
Speed = 55 mph = 80 feet per second.
Radius of curve (pure guess) = 300 feet (pure guess).
Acceleration (all sideways if the curve is not banked) =
(speed squared)/radius = 21 feet per second squared = .66 g's!
Coefficients of friction for non-greasy substances like concrete tend to be in the general neighborhood of 0.3, which could therefore resist an acceleration of about 10 feet per second squared.
Now there is AMPLE opportunity for a shifting load to have done some serious damage, especially if it didn't cover the whole floor and had a chance to get some speed before slamming into the side of the train.
There is still lots of opportunity for it NOT to have been a shifting load. Any banking of the curve diminishes the sideways force. And if there was a single layer of blocks covering the whole floor, they wouldn't have had an opportunity to slide anywhere. But at least it's more plausible now.
And this calls into question the use of concrete blocks standing free on a plywood floor instead of sandbags, which are harder to handle, but less apt to shift, no less slide.
Actually, the speed was at least 55mph, in manual operation. This gives a bit more relevance to the now deceased operator's comments about high speeds. It may also point some blame to him (maybe)
I am still content to wait for the NTSB's report before pointing to "pilot error".
Assuming that the curve was rated at substantially less than 55 mph there are now many more questions to be answered about the safety of the system's signal system. How could a train go into a curve at an excessive rate of speed? This should not be possible with a conventional block system which would have had timers protecting the curve. A CBTC system should have something similar.
The AirTrain trucks are equipped with track brakes. These sould have stopped a train going 60 mph in less than 9 seconds and in less than 400 feet had they been activated. There should have been plenty of time to prevent the derailment.
Even if the driver were joy riding, the signal system should have prevented the derailment. It didn't. This raises the question of what else it may not prevent. I would be far more reluctant to proceed to opening the system before the failure mechanism is fully determined.
I expect the NTSB report to make very interesting reading.
Agreed with all your points. These are possible faults which, while most unfortunate and distrbing if true, can and must be addressed now. The PA must double-check all these areas even before NTSB comes out with a final report.
It will be interesting reading.
These are possible faults which, while most unfortunate and distrbing if true, can and must be addressed now. The PA must double-check all these areas even before NTSB comes out with a final report.
According to ny1, the PA has suspended testing until the NTSB issues its report.
According to ny1, the PA has suspended testing until the NTSB issues its report.
That could significantly delay AirTrain's opening, as the NTSB takes all due time in issuing its reports. Unless maybe the PA is waiting only for some sort of preliminary report rather than the final one?
Very well.
The AirTrain trucks are equipped with track brakes. These sould have stopped a train going 60 mph in less than 9 seconds and in less than 400 feet had they been activated. There should have been plenty of time to prevent the derailment.
Possible scenario: AirTrain computer faulty, the operator notices that the train is going far too fast for the curve. He yells "FUCK" and grabs the emergency brakes. The emergency brakes are activiated, resulting in sudden deceleration. The force causes the load to shift forwards and sideways (by this time the train may already be on the curve), striking the front side corner of the vehicle, pinning the driver, also causing a derailment due to impact of load and train bodyshell.
All we need to find out to discount this scenario is to see if the emergency brake was in fact deployed.
AEM7
The emergency brakes are activiated, resulting in sudden deceleration. The force causes the load to shift forwards and sideways (by this time the train may already be on the curve), striking the front side corner of the vehicle, pinning the driver,
Track brake deceleration rates are in the 6-7 mph/sec range or 0.28-0.32g range.
...also causing a derailment due to impact of load and train bodyshell.
There are a lot of fundamental design problems, if a shifting live load can cause a derailment. That requires a "back to the drawing board" response.
Possible scenario: AirTrain computer faulty, . . .
But they are saying it was being operated in Manual Mode. Does the computer control train speed in Manual Mode?
In DC, when the MetroRail is in manual, certain computers are making sure the train isn't going too fast. If an operator exceceds the speed limit and does not slow down, the train will go BIE. Cab signalling does have similar ways of doing what a grade timer can do.
That's true, but WMATA equipment is designed to be operated manually in revenue service with computer supervision of the operator. Given that Airtrain is designed to be fully automatic in revenue service, I wonder if its manual mode is more fully manual than most new systems.
Possible scenario: AirTrain computer faulty, the operator notices that the train is going far too fast for the curve. He yells "FUCK" and grabs the emergency brakes. The emergency brakes are activiated, resulting in sudden deceleration. The force causes the load to shift forwards and sideways (by this time the train may already be on the curve), striking the front side corner of the vehicle, pinning the driver, also causing a derailment due to impact of load and train bodyshell.
Well one part of that scenario can never be proven, as there are no voice recorders on the AirTrain ....
It is certainly easy enough to determine if there was brake application, and if so, how and when. The NTSB may already know that, but have not released information about it to the public.
Since the system is designed for automatic operation in revenue service, is it possible that manual operation is designed to be just that -- purely manual, with no automatic safety features? Or with fewer automatic safety features in manual mode than one would expect if the system were designed for OPTO revenue service?
There are many possibilities. The NTSB will contain a thorough explanation of the signal system, if past reports are any indication.
Could it be possible that the signalling system not fully deployed or being used at the time
I'm willing to wait for the NTSB report for an explanation.
Does it really matter if it was 50 or 30 MPH? Was this 'monorail' so shoddy that it derailed? 16K pounds of unsecured concrete blocks...trainet derailed, came crashing down, hit a wall and T/O was crushed by the blocks? Sounds like R142, smells like R142, PA bought a 'bill of goods.' Oh Canada, your trainsets are such crap.
We're loading B52s with napalm cannisters. What the Frenchies/Canadiens do not have is the guts to kill off their own people. Stinkin Vichy pigs.
Cool down, Juice. I can understand some posters here posting nonsense like that before the facts are in, but you have no excuse.
If Airtrain was going 50-55 MPH, any clue what that curve was rated at ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I do not know. You pose an ecellent question.
Many places the NY subway uses what I call guardrails just inside the running rails, to keep the train straying too far left or right during a derailment. Recall that a month ago, someone posted on this message board a photo of an el train that jumped nose-first to the street at 6th Avenue and 53rd Street. To prevent that, the guardrails were installed. To fall to the street, the train would have to "jump" the guardrail on the opposite side (if the train derailed left, the right wheel would sometimes be caught by the guardrail). This presumes that the train is so heavy that it is reluctant to jump. So: does the Airtrain route use guardrails between the tracks on curves? Joe
Photographs on the PA's AirTrain website show such guardrails in place: http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/constructionframe.htm
Uh, less than 50?
Just kidding,
Matt
The 600 R-32 cars were born at the Budd Company Plant.
All 600 of them grew up based in Coney Island.
According to the 9/13/02 car assignments, a scant 50 of the 594 that survive still call Coney Island home.
I figure within 6 months the remaining 50 will find new homes in Forest Hills or Pitkin.
I can recall seeing seas of stainless steel R32's in CI yard to service the N, T, Q, and TT. They were along side of the R27/30 cars for the RR and QT/QB. It seems unreal that the day is soon when there will not be R32's at CI.
Any thoughts?? Mine is at least the fleet is still strong, although elswhere.
i too think they belong in CI yard,they are one of my favorite subway
cars,they belong in CI.
til next time
Sorry, but 'they're my favorites' isn't a valid reason to concentrate a fleet of subway cars in any one place. Subway car assignments (which are to maintenance shops, not to yards, by the way) are based on maintenance and operational needs. The R-32s are leaving Coney Island because, with the entry into service of R-143s in East New York, some of East New York's cars (R-40 and R-40M) are no longer needed there and are moving to Coney Island, which already has similar/identical cars. This, in turn, displaces R-32s to Jamaica, which already runs R-32s, which allows for different R-32s to go to Pitkin (remember, since overhaul there are two "types" of R-32 -- some have NYAB brakes, and some have WABCO brakes; there are other differences as well). The cars going to Pitkin are like R-32s that were already there.
David
Since there are 2 different 'types' of R32 with their different brakes. Is there any way to distinguish them both when riding. Can both types be hookd up and run, in yard and revenue service?
Phase I is WABCO brakes. They have a solid sound like that on the R40s and R68As. "SHHHHH" The Phase IIs have the NYAB a lot like those on the R68s but a tad different. "SHHH AHHH"
Do Phase III brakes then proceed to a "SH*T" prior to a crash?
:0)
Maybe some of those rigs at East New York. 4461 comes to mind.
Which car numbers are Phase 1 and which are Phase 2?
I don't believe they were grouped by number series.
David
You are correct, they are thoroughly mixed, odd couples included; there's no rhyme or reason as to what's a Phase I and what's a Phase II. One thing I did notice is that there did not seem to be any Phase I at CI, and there did not seem to be any Phase II at Pitkin.
Jamaica was a mixture. And, yes, they can run in the same consist.
wayne
And that means more railfan windows on the "A", my favourite express run through the Fulton IND.
wayne
I'm all for that. We'll have to go out to Rockaway Park on one of those next week.
Just like the R7 and R9 cars started on the IND they ended their life on the BMT. Now it the R32 started on the BMT to end their life on the IND.
No more R32s at Coney Island anymore. That sucks! Why can't Pitkin get the Slants and R40m's?
They are familiar with Phase I R32s. So that's why they're getting them. The only other yard with Phase I cars is Jamaica. They have Phase II as well as I. So if they give up a Phase I, they naturally take one back from Coney Islands Phase II fleet.
To concentrate Budd-built, all stainless, corrosion proof cars on all underground routes of the C & E makes no sense.
The other cars aren't in immediate danger in a case like the R44 truck cracking. They can still run anywhere. And they also need to take into consideration the yards. They try to concentrate the least amount of cars to the least amount of yards to keep the amount of spares down. It's $.
Cuz Pitkin is set up to maintain only R32's and R44's. CI has experience with the R40 slants and the eastern division's R40M's are mechanically identical.
Just because no R32's will be assigned to CI doesn't mean that you'll never see one there. Remember, R32's run on the F and will return there next year. Ditto with the R46's. They haven't been assigned there for over a decade, yet they're still a common sight.
Any thought if R32's still run on the N line? I would like to see R32's and R40M/R42's on the D line, just for old times sake. I always identified these cars to the D, just like R10 was to the A.
the R32 still run on the N line,as for seeing the R40m/R42 on the D line,it ain,t gonna happen.i would like to see em on that line,but it
won,t happen.
til next time
One of the early bastions of the R32 was the post-Chrystie "D" line. The R40M and R42 did not appear on the "D" until much later, perhaps the late 70s and early 80s.
wayne
ADDENDUM /amendment to the previous:
There WERE, of course the R42 that were initially assigned to the "D" upon delivery, in 1969-1970. These would be: 4696-4699, 4700-4799, 4800-4805, a total of 110 units.
wayne
I love R32. It is truly the train and place that I grew up on.
AMEN TO THAT BROTHER. NOTHING MORE EXCITING THAN A RAILFAN WINDOW ON THE E TRAIN. I LOVE MY E WITH R32s
Are conductors thouroughly trained when it comes to New Tech door operation? When I say this it is because I see many conductors on the 6 handling the R142A's like the R62A's and the Redbirds. Instead of letting the doors handle the door holders and door blockers, i've seen conductors "bounce" the doors ( doors closing, then reopen partially and continue to close), and suddenly recycling the entire the trainset. Have conductors been tought how to use the 'local recycle' feature? It appears that bouncing the doors thouroughly confuses the computers, as one set of doors on car 7393 appeared to get stuck before deciding to continue to close.
Have C/R's on the R143's and on the 2 and 5 line been trained any differently?
One of my C/R don't like using the "Local Recycle" on the R143's. She was the one of th first C/R to be trained on them and was used in the testing out of and in serivce. She say that to many people comlpaned that the door hert them becouse they close to hard before opening up again. So now I sit at 14st-Union Sq and 6ave for about a 1 or 2mins just so she dose not have to hit anyone with the doors. I hate going to work on Saturdays becouse of this. I say if the people keep getting hit like this, then maybe they will learn not to hold the doors.
Robert
Exactly, that's what the L line superintendent told me...the R143s close harder every time with the local recycle feature to discourage them from holding doors. Maybe they'll learn one day...:-\
I'll be impressed when trainsets are equipped with retractable blades. Though no conductor will publicly agree with me here, I see that smile. :)
" Ladies ang Gentlemen, for your fingers' sake, Do Not Block The Doors While the Train Is In the Station"
Or as I would have been more apt to whisper into the wall hole, "Ladies and gentlemen, MOVE IT OR LOSE IT" ... and ya wonder why they kept putting me on trains with no PA. :)
Gee, I wonder why..:)
Actually I'd like to have little pieces of metal embedded in the door rubber that are connected directly to the contact shoe. :)
Atta boy! Heh. Ya can't play beat the clock with kibbitzers jamming the doors. :)
Thanks for responding Robert! Now about the C/R: Doesn't she realize that she's defeating the whole purpose of the local recycle feature? Perhaps you can complain about her, and she can get written up for causing a delay in service.
Doesn't she realize that she's defeating the whole purpose of the local recycle feature? Perhaps you can complain about her, and she can get written up for causing a delay in service.
Sounds like you need some training yourself. Would you write someone up because you perceive she is unaware of a procedure? How is she causing a delay in service if her procedure used on new cars is SOP on older cars? Is the running time shorter for the R143s? I always felt the TA never trained their employees enough, how many motormen knew their last cars were smoking up brakes while they were smoothing out stops on the R9s, maybe except Selkirk?
I think Robert made it pretty clear that the conductor does not like the procedure and is therefore choosing not to follow it, in violation of her training.
If she was unaware of it, I would agree with you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Robert made it clear that the conductor didn't like the practice, but he also stated the doors close hard on passengers. His one to two minutes lateness is not specifically blamed on use of one button over another. I find it hard to believe the doors will close harder because of the buttons, the voltage is supposed to be the same. Maybe Stef or TD can answer this one, is it possible for a closing DC door motor to deliver more torque while it is being delayed by a passenger's foot after the other doors in the DC1 circuit have already been closed, locked and out of the circuit, or does the voltage to the engine go up after the other are out of the equasion?
My interpretation of his statement didn't include any notion that the cycling of the doors was any harder, just that passengers who were holding the doors complained about being struck by the doors, probably repeatedly, hence it hurt. Rather, I took it to mean that the conductor wasn't closing the doors AT ALL until she was certain no one was holding them.
I would not expect that the force exerted by the doors would vary based on the switch used to trigger them, although I could be wrong.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're on shortwave...your HF contact says your signal is fading...squeeze the PTT button on your microphone for a stronger signal. Oxymoron for moronics. CI Peter
speaking of conductor training, how do you get it, and how do you land a position for train conductors and operators?
Hey, hey, HEY! I was *proud* of my blue smoke! :)
Besides, we all know smoking was illegal in the subway and they NEVER wrote up MY cars. Heh. I've explained it before here, anybody remember WHY Arnines smoked?
What's arnine?
A term I coined here to eliminate the arguments over the IND prewar cars. Back in my day, whatever it was, it was called an R-9 ... however here there's folks that would insist that R4's ran here, R6-2's ran there and thus I couldn't have been on an "R-9" when in reality, most trains were mixed mongrels of whatever coupled and stayed that way. So by using "Arnine" as a generic, the arguments were avoided. Then it kinda stuck. :)
Oh, Interesing! Thanks for responding SelkirkTMO! There is so much that I don't know, but I'm learnin'.
You're most welcome ... and there's plenty of good learning here too among the noise. :)
Oh, Interesing! Thanks for responding SelkirkTMO! There is so much that I don't know, but I'm learnin'.
From the lubricant (or lack thereof) on the friction journals?
Brake shoes on the greased wheels. Of course, hot journals also did their contribution, but the free blue smoke there was generated without the benefit of brake application. :)
There was SO much mechanical slop on most Arnines that the grease would work its way all over the trucks and would get flung out onto the flanges. Some of them needed a new greasebag almost daily.
Weren't the journals themselves oiled as opposed to greased?
Dunno. I'd guess greased, but I wasn't hired on as a car inspector. RCI's told me the scenario and it sounded real to me. Back in the days of the standards they put oil-soaked rags into boxes and packed them in there tight. Arnines were "new tech" ... heh.
Journal boxes greased or packed with oil soaked rags??? Shame upon everone...the bearings are sealed for their lifetime and must be replaced upon leakage/failure. When we report journal bearing failure on R142s....BBD cleans em out with solvents and gives an OK.
When I inspect Redbirds, I check the bearings for abnormal leakage, write em up in my inspection report and clean the materiel out thoroughly for the next inspection...which may never come. CI Peter
Friction bearings, as used on R-1/9's were packed with "wool waste"; the bottom of the journal box acted as a reservoir for the oil. The wool absorbed the oil and lubricated the bearings as the axle rotated.
Dat's da truth ... you could hear them braying as you applied. Baaaaaaa. :)
So Bombardiers journal bearings are lubricated with the 'crap waste' that infects my lungs? If a 'sealed bearing' poring out glop...is not that bearing defective??? B52s on the tarmac...napthalmic cannisters and willie peter in the racks. CI Peter
You can't write someone up for not using Local Recycle. There is no set proceedure on Door operation on R142/R142A/R143'S exept for the proceedure already on the books which includes all car classes. When the C/R is ready to close down they must make sure the doorways are clear. If someone get cought in the door reopen and make the closing door announcement and close down again until you get indication. Most TSS's will tell you to use Local recycle but its not in writeing. Also if someone claims injury over getting hit with the doors thats
on the C/R. So Roberts C/R is doing nothing wrong.
i am sorry but it is good for them because of the usual fact that they aren't supposed to hold up train service. of course that will be adjusted but i would keep it if i were in charge
I'll admit I never use local recycle, but its out of habit not out of not wanting to hit the customers. Being XXL I see the L maybe at most once every 3 months (although recently I'm there every Sunday), and I always forget Loc. Recyc. I see someone whose going to hit/grab a door and hit Open before I know what I'm doing.
Please get into the habit of having the doors chew a person's hand off. :)
Are you on the L today 10/6/02. I have 309 on Sundays.
Robert
That local recycle is a lawsuit waiting to happen!! Not to mention a possible source of additional customer/conductor confrontations and assaults on conductors. I think the idea meant well, but the designers didn't realize how hard those doors hit when they recycle. I suggest not using it!! I had a student posting with me one time, and a T.S.S. came over and was telling him about using it. I said I don't use it because it is nothing more than a confrontation and/or assault waiting to happen. I suggest to every TA conductor/train operator (when doing M OPTO with the R-143) not to use the local recycle and just do it the old fashioned way.
I work on #6 line a few days a week. I know its 50/50 on C/R's useing Local recycle and the old fashioned way. We now have a lot of C/R's from B Div over here and they all reopen the whole train. As for me I'm in the 50% that use Local Recycle. On the 6 Line I feel C/R's need to use it to keep the trains moving. If riders DON'T want to get hit with doors they won't stand in the doorway or hold doors. Most of the when they think about holding the doors and the door come back on them they forget about it and let the train go.
AND, after all (once again, you show you're THINKING like a professional) if the doors provide "ouchy" it ain't the CONDUCTOR doing it, it's this damned TRAIN. "Human interface" Geez, folks are gonna start wondering if I'm sucking up between this and the prior message because the geese won't ask themselves, "what could a clown from upstate New York GET from a conductor when he's already been a motorman and gotten some R143 HANDLE TIME?"
The answer of course is NOTHING. Conductors may rule the train, but motormen can slice cars in half. Boowahahaha. :)
Dave's a REALLY good guy, watches OUT for his geese like a pro and doesn't phuck up the railroad. Ain't many like him from what *I* saw on the railroad lately and folks like Unca Dave deserve a HUG from their geese for not beating them senseless. 'word.
When I grow up, I wanna ba C/R on the #6. MY geese will learn the hard way! :)( insane laughting fit)
After a few months on the job, I now realize how to determine whether or not I have a slow C/R on an R-142.
If the C/R let's the entire automated annoucement play at every station, then he/she is a slow C/R. At some stations, it's evitable that the C/R won't be able to close down fast. But when this happens at every station, then you're going to be late.
If the C/R closes down before the "stand clear of the closing doors please", part of the annoucement, then I know we have a chance of being on time.
I don't think enough people realize just how important the C/R really is. I didn't until I became a T/O.
My T/O's like the way I rock the doors. I hear T/O's on the #6 Line talk all the time they are working with a slow C/R. One of my T/O made me feel real good the other day when she told the train crews how good I operate and I should teach my fellow C/R's how to operate. Someone then told me she never talks that good about any C/R. I just simple said behind every good C/R there is a good T/O.
I was a passenger on the 6 line a few days ago. Got on at 51st going s/b. First thing I noticed was that the train was late, and the T/O entered the station slower than I enter, and certainly slower than most enter the station.
So I rode the first car, and watched her operation through the cab window. She was a slow T/O. On almost any station, you're supposed to get indication, go to full power, and hold it until you're one car length from the next station. Then go to coast, and put a few cars in the station, then take a hard break. When I do this, I keep my time on the 6, and get no complaints from ccstomers or C/R's.
This T/O was grabbing a little break before every station, or upon hitting the station. So I knew it was her who was making the train late.
Yeah, but there is a dark side to operating like that on an R142. If you do anything against the rules, and someone bangs you in because say for example they got hit by the doors, you won't have a leg to stand on. You're sunk. All because of that wonderful --EVENT RECORDER--. Of course it's different with an R62/62A since you don't have the train banging you in.
Don't get me wrong, I love quick C/R's, and I was definitely a quick one (I still get fellow T/O's jokingly trying to coax me into going back in title). As a T/O I've mellowed a bit, but I still make sure that when my C/R passes that indication, that train is outta there.
But as far as these R142/142A/143's go, there is absolutely NO WAY that I will operate against the rules with those trains.
Give me a R42 on the L, I'll operate like a pro.
Give me a R143 on the L, I'll operate like an 85 year old lady coming from church.
Schedule? Fuck the schedule. I'll get there when I get there. Of course I'll attempt to get there on time, but safety comes first. Especially the safety of my paycheck.
I operate a R143 the same way I do an R42. If you know the timer then keeping time come easy. The only thing is that the R143 pick up speed faster when costing in some section of the line. So in these cases I just hole a min brake to keep it from getting away to fast. I still can hit 50mph in both direction of the river tube, just with the R143's I rap it at the secound timer going to the city and drop it off at about 41mph untill the Thrird timer clears and thene rap it again.
Robert
Ok, good. Now what happens when one of those timers fails to clear for some reason? You might be going downtown, or you'll be shitting in your pants for the next few days wondering if the techies are going to download your incident and bang it in.
6 weeks ago when I was working the L, the third timer in the Manhattan-bound tube was not clearing at all. Four T/O's called themselves in because they had overrun the signal. All of them were operating R143's.
Personally, I'm trying to avoid the 143's for two reasons. One because I don't want anything to do with those trains, and two because Canarsie isn't really a convenient terminal for me to report to. Bottom line is that those trains are trouble waiting to happen for the crews.
"Personally, I'm trying to avoid the 143's for two reasons. One because I don't want anything to do with those trains, and two because Canarsie isn't really a convenient terminal for me to report to. Bottom line is that those trains are trouble waiting to happen for the crews."
Event recorders are going to be a fact of life on all rail transit modes, so why try so hard to avoid them?
If you operate an R32 "by the book" will your superiors treat you differently than if you operate an R143 "by the book?" Granted, the R32 may not record exactly what you did, when you do it, but don't supervisors you don't get along with already have plenty of ways to nail you?
Since I don't work in transit, I know there are many subtle conflicts which happen all the time (in my profession too, believe me) that I cannot articulate here (because I don't know them. But I know they exist, and they obviously bother you.
On a different vein: Is it possible the R143's event recorders and controls could be used by management and the TWU to create better crews? With all that instant feedback, train crews can learn faster and in more detail what they are doing and how to do it better.
Sort of like when Navy pilots go through Top Gun training and every move is recorded.
In medicine, many doctors are resisting the use of electronic patient records because they facilitate quick collection of statistics which can show up some incompetent doctors for who they are.
But that's partly why I advocate for these systems. The bigger part, though, is how much you can learn from them.
Let the TA get these trains to work correctly before trying to "create better crews". I heard on the radio last week that a #6 train was indicating a BIE at the T/O's position, only problem he was doing 35mph into a station.
Wow! That's some bug. Now, how about showing 55mph when the train is standing at the station with the doors open? :0)
"Let the TA get these trains to work correctly before trying to "create better crews". "
The two are not mutually exclusive, and one need not come at the expense of the other. They are two legs on the same body - can't run with one or the other missing.
These new trains hold the promise of pushing the crews to perform better - but management and the union leadership need to approach thm that way.
How can you make me a better T/O with equipment that does not work properly?
All the TA does is teach you how to move the damn thing because they don't even know what these trains can and can't do.
>>>>>>>>>If you operate an R32 "by the book" will your superiors treat you differently than if you operate an R143 "by the book?" Granted, the R32 may not record exactly what you did, when you do it, but don't supervisors you don't get along with already have plenty of ways to nail you?
Fortunately, I don't have any supervisors that I feel ill will towards. They ask me to do something, and I do it. I don't need to make my own job more difficult by making their job more difficult in return.
I do have to admit that I'm a bit "concerned" with these new trains, but like you said sooner or later I'll have to deal with it. But my main message to my fellow crews is below.
BOTTOM LINE is that ANY T/O or C/R who operates a train (especially a 142/142A/143) needs to operate by the book. No rapid door closings, no cheating with the door enabler, no closing the doors before the automated "stand clear" announcement has a chance to finish. Doing so could result in a suspension if you're caught. And God forbid, don't let there be a preventable incident. It's "fast" operation that has resulted in 5 trippers on the L and 3 trippers on the #4 thanks to shaving the running time.
"no closing the doors before the automated "stand clear" announcement has a chance to finish. "
Clearly, the message needs to be shortened, and perhaps clarified, something like: "42nd Street: Grand Central Station. This is the Number 6 Train to Pelham Bay Park. Watch the Closing Doors"
[Close the doors and GO!]
Then enroute: "This is the Number Six Traian to Pelham Bay Park. The next Station is ....... change for the ... ... and ..."
The next stop must be announced before the doors close. If nothing else is announced, announce the next stop.
"The next stop must be announced before the doors close."
The arnines were better. People *knew* that the train was going *somewhere* and the *knew* that the doors would be closing.
Heh. And people waiting for the golden throat to tell them what they've won would have been waiting one heck of a long time for the announcement. Ah, for the days when people paid attention to what they were doing and where they were going. Only announcements you'd get (if any) came from OUTSIDE the car. :)
I think the stations can be announced entirely en route. The only think that needs to be announced in the station is what train it is and where it's going. Example:
(While entering the station) "42 Street-Grand Central. Change here for the number 7 train and the 42 Street Shuttle."
(Doors open) "This is a number 6 train to Pelham Bay Park. Stand clear of the doors." (Doors Close)
(Upon leaving the station) "The next station is 51 Street. Change here for the E and V trains."
I favor announcing en-route and upon departure, as the train approaches and leaves the station. In fact, I remember this style of announcement being much more prevalent some years ago (80s, 90s) than it is today. I am curious as to what the reasoning is behind the rule that the train must be stationary whilst the announcements are made. Maybe it has to do with the pointing-to-the-board requirement.
wayne
Fair enough.
>>> With all that instant feedback, train crews can learn faster and in more detail what they are doing and how to do it better. <<<
Yet the biggest area of performance recording, the commercial airplane black boxes cannot be used unless there is an accident.
I also remember forty years ago seeing speed recording devices in Greyhound buses. They did not last long, probably because of an over all slowdown of the buses by drivers playing CYA.
Tom
Very true - though they could be used that way.
Actually, you'd want two sets (like having two odometers). One set is sealed, and only the NTSB can touch it. The other the airline can review with its pilots on whatever schedule is good for training.
>>> The other the airline can review with its pilots on whatever schedule is good for training. <<<
That is what the pilots through their unions would not allow.
Tom
That's a shame. Top Gun training is a real-time and much more expensive version of this.
Both management and unions would be responsible for obstructing this. The adversarial relationship doesn't help any.
Two hidden 'flight data recorders' reside in each R142 A car that do a continuous half hour loop. System has a more timely recording...lasts for days. BIE the trainset and onsite RCIs can DL the history...much more is available like propulsion energy, brake cylinder, brake pipe and the like in a FlashCard DL. There are too many games that can be played for a few free hours of lay-up and TWU does NOT balk...passenger and system safety is first priority!!! Few on this board know or understand what havoc a T/O can do with a crayon on the old trainsets....and those who do know WE can find out during special inspections. Problem TWU has is with T/Os cited when computer malfunctions/TTs take train out of RTO and we find nothing wrong. One year on the job...twenty four to go...I'll be 73. 73's de WB2SGT.
I like learning about New Tech. :-)
So do I. Sad part is that what I HAVE LEARNED IS SELF TAUGHT...when I was given the three day introduction to new Tech R142s, I knew far more than our instructor whom I met in PS248 SubSchool. Switching over to East 180th, I've been away from the practical since doing Redbirds and missed a lot. I like to share but must be careful about NYCTA policy...my technical posts never disclose sensitive materiels...none of my posts ever open 'cans of worms' and I do my best to explain. My little group...engineers and engineering technicians...balk at the lack of information access to learn with, to work with and to do our work. We are older, we were hired for our extensive outside experience and we're relegated to changing out brakes and oil. The union hates us. Soon, the next class of Car Inspectors will be on the job. I'll have to break in a few on the Redbirds...they will hate the work and probably not be too happy with me despite my efforts. What they will not know for so very long is that learning Redbird systems may be dirty and nasty but every system experienced and learned is fully automated in New Tech...if you can do a Redbird, you can do any trainset. Even TrainDudes giant IND units. CI Peter
Isn't the TA's cheapness with training, dangerous?
Normally, we would assume it is cheapness but my aunt pointed out to me a year ago that there is an industry standard that accepts training by working with someone 'experienced.' If that person is not up to par, has no interest in imparting wisdom or is just frankly annoyed, you get a new employee at the same rate of pay as everyone else in Civil Service. The new employee never gets assigned to any serious technical work, walks around with hands-in-pockets all day only to be called up for the simplest tasks, has difficulty communicating and earns 'lack of respect.' He might be the nicest guy you ever met and you eat your heart out that he has seniority over you and always calls you up for a 'quick bail out.' TA was not 'cheap' in this matter...cost big money...a lesson was learned and corrected appropriately. The internet was my first source of information...you can print books out on transportation, railway signalling and motor systems. CI Peter
A crayon? Fill me in. My curiosity is piqued.
Got me curious too ... but he won't tell.
I cannot post it in public...ex T/O gave me the info. So, where am I?
Propulsion 104, maintainance of the MCC. GE and Westinghouse MCCs use a batch of silver contacts to DC communicate with the group box.
During inspection of propulsion, it is very important to clean all contacts and not to use the NYCTA approved non-conductive abrasive files as they may leave a particle of abrasive that seperates the contact surfaces. Read into that...a particle of abrasive that seperates the contacts. Crayon...wax...non conductive materiel that seperates electrical conduction. I cannot post in public the procedure and incidence. 'Hello, calling control, my trainset will not engage second point of power.' 'I need time off...I need a McBagget.' 'Send me a RCI...I'm hungry...I'm thirsty...I'm big and fat and need a toilet.' 'I ate my crayon.' AND don't any of you TWU maggots lay into me unless you want the leading edge of a shoe paddle. Did I spill the beans? CI Peter
I thought CI Peter's reference to crayons had something to do with covering strike marks on a trip cock. Carry a white crayon with you to cover the yellow strike mark a stop arm will leave on your train's trip cock.
But CI Peter's messages have become harder for me to understand lately. Very criptic. In one message, he referred to women as "wimen", which made me feel like I was reading the letter Berkowitz sent to the Post over 25 years ago.
>>>>>>>But CI Peter's messages have become harder for me to understand lately. Very criptic. In one message, he referred to women as "wimen", which made me feel like I was reading the letter Berkowitz sent to the Post over 25 years ago.
Well, unfortunately CI Peter has a problem with spelling. It's quite obvious that you should spell it "wimmin".
As far as being cryptic, well that's our problem. Like the post where Peter explained the crayon situation. I read it 5 times and still cannot decipher it. But it's not Peter's fault. He posted the answer, but we're just not bright enough to understand it.
-Zman (aka "Dim Bulb")
I understand! I wonder how a T/O would get there and use the crayon... Sounds dangerous.
Z ... I'll answer the mystery meat for you, but ONLY in email. They KNOW the trick and anybody that plays it will hit the street. But if you're curious, I'll explain it to ya since Peter CAN'T ...
I can spell and speak English, comm in RTTY on 100 WPM circuits and though I'm a little rusty, comm 20+ WPM in Morse Code. I have worked in electronics communications for over twenty five years, got used to no social life as there were no female equivalents about...got this work in TA I'm so happy about...hear about female Car Inspectors and the TWO I have met are 'minority representatives' that NEVER have a trace of dirt upon their bodies! Work far fewer hours than in my past employment...still looking forward to a NEW social life. Little interest in CTAs......'Where be de wimmen Car Inspectors???' Maybe they are in hiding to keep their pretty hands clean???
As for the 'crayon issue,' I cannot spell out the details over internet. What I can do is reinterate that the parafin carrier in the crayon is an insulator and when bonded to silver alloy contacts prevents the transmission of DC control signals. Again, such a trainset TTd can be identified by someone with a little experience and the T/O will get written up after inspection. CI Peter
Most run up on those timers in the tube. If it decides not to clear, there is not way for you stop without getting tripped. If it is an R143, it is now on the event recorder. You don't know if there is a train in front of you or a track circuit failure if it doesn't clear. These are not one shot timers (lunar white light or yellow S) ones. I really think you guys are crazy operating like that. If I were a TSS over there, I would give you guys hell over it. Sure it says 50 MPH, but you have to be able to stop if a signal does not clear!
it will become a trained responce over time to avoid sticking ones body into the doors.
Right now most people know the t/o will reopen the doors. Let the get hit a few times they wont hold the doors anymore
I am only speculating as I am not qualified on the R143. Perhaps the reason why the doors slam harder on local recycle is to try to kick out the object obstructing the door or since the "male and female" sides of the door rubber have to make up perfectly to get indication, sometimes they just don't if the doors do not slam against each other. Of course, as computerised as these cars are, all the door knows is that it isn't closing properly. It doesn't "know" if someone is holding the door or not! Sure, I would like to see the doors slam to "teach someone a lesson", but I agree that if a customer claims injury of being struck by a closing door, if he/she is holding it or not, it is the conductors ass that will fry as a result. He/she has to go downtown to piss in the cup, visit the crack TA medical staff, then get punished with platform work while the investigation moves forward at the TA bureaucratic snails pace.
Uhhhhhhh Mr. Rob.....N/E Train Operator, when we worked together on the L, I DIDN'T USE THE RECYCLE, and we had heavy loads, but we didn't stay long in ANY station, and if I am not mistaken we worked together during the rush hour.....we made way just fine, actually getting to Canarsie on time. As I stated in an earlier post, I suggest not using the recycle. I make out well on the R-143 without using it. People get off my train when I got the R-143 smiling at me (believe it or not), not fussing about being smashed beyond recognition with the doors!! :-)
Ya we did work together on a Friday. Rebember I can't see if you are using "local recycle" or not. All I hear is the bell keep going off from the different zone close, so i did not know that. Be yes at lest you did keep going. My C/R on Saturday dose not keep us going, we just sit inside the station and wait for everyone. Hope to work with you again, you are been one of the better ones that I have work with on Thursday and Friday on the L.
Robert
One of the things I enjoyed in my day when I had a conductor that could NOT "beat the clock" was telling my TMO - "ask him why we were late." :)
Moving up to the lead car has a few advantages sometimes. Heh.
"Beat the Clock" is what I do best.
Yeah, well YOU beat it with a frigging BASEBALL BAT! :)
As a former conductor, my hat REMAINS off to your ability to jiggle them doors ... and have SMILES on the "diddled" ... if there was such as thing as TSS's for conductors (yeah, I realize the morons claim to know the job) then you'd be primary candidate for management of same. Alas, all conductors get is this cheezy pair of 3D glasses. Heh.
Coming up to Branford this coming Sunday to ride an Arnine with Bingbong and I? I'll throw the rotary and let you close up if you're game. We're going to give our "guests" on the Arnine the RIDE FROM HELL just for historical purposes ... wanna keep them from amassing on the bulkheads? :)
For anyone ELSE interested, details on the events this COMING Sunday, STeve 8th Ave Exp (his birthday) and Selkirk and his railfoamer hunny ABUSING an Arnine can be found here ... would LOVE to give you a BIE concussion ... heh.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/events.cgi
Scroll down to October 13, 2002, JOIN Branford as a member and pony up some cash for the museum, and Unca Selkirk AND OTHERS will take you for a ride on the mighty Arnine ... can't do THAT on the damned N train! Come, kibbitz, talk about "subtalk LIVE" ... warm, breathing flesh (including Selkirk, BMTman, Lou, Sparky and many more) beats the crap out of posting to an internet site ... and we're FUN! Been with these folks personally and I can attest that most are better than SEX. And ya get to do it in a subway car that won't run THESE DAYS.
Bingbong and I have rented the car LATER in the day for ourselves. It may be rockin', but it won't be MOVIN' ... word. :)
I don't know if I be able to make it. I have to be at work for 5PM.
Yipe ... damned RDO's. I'll rock some doors in your memory then. Maybe Unca Lou will let me dump some geese. :)
Blessing the cab again, I see.:) Will the compressors be on then?
Heh. Dunno ... will we be requiring air for that? :)
D4s will cut in at 130 psi....I'll make a special overload blessing beyond 150 psi. Just don't make me wait undercar for the moisture blowout....I hate getting oily/wet. Just not the same as Saint Francis 'Blessing of the animals...Holy Water.' Holy sh tt Batman...this water stinks. CI Peter
Does the black box on the r142/r143 series cars record dor activity.
That would be a nice way for management to monitor the activity of conductors and also evaluate the effectiveness of the recycle feature
What is Local Recycle?
When an object is stuck in a trainset door and the train operator does not receive 'indication' the trainset will not move. On my old Redbirds, the conductor looks out his window to observe which half of the trainset has a door that is not closing (by the carbody lights) and will continously 'jog' all the doors until indication or make an announcement to the maggots to stop holding the doors. Train does not go until all doors are secured....jogging operates ALL doors on that side/half of the trainset. New Tech is much better....trainset senses blocked door/doors. Local recycle jogs only the doors obstructed....in the trainset half....only the obstructed doors jog....all others remain closed and secure so everyoe else reamains secured so that the trainset operates RTO schedules. That's the best simple explanation I can give...I do so many inspections and special work to 95%....posters can chew me out but none of them can come close to my work level. Redbirds and R142s...old and new...nothing in between. TrainDude says when I get older and better I should go to the big trains...Ten car IRT trainsets are two city blocks long and I threaten supervision with bringing in my longboard scooter. Can't imagine 'troubles' on a trainset 750 feet in legnth. CI Peter
TransiTALK which had been down for several months has been making a return to the next since August.
Today re-premiered the MTA NYC Subway Gallery which has all new photos and just a dusting of photos from the old TransiTALK.
www.transitalk.org
Peep, Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
Take a gander at this guy. "The Luckiest Man in the Universe".http://www.backwash.com/content_frame.php?id=4a2c012ea8f3437216510efe8ad949b3
Amazing! Yet another example of 'Stupid Human Tricks'.
>>> "The Luckiest Man in the Universe" <<<
He gives a new meaning to "Mind the gap."
Tom
>>> "The Luckiest Man in the Universe" <<< >
He gives a new meaning to "Mind the gap."
The gap, in this case, being between this rocket scientist's ears. For the good of the gene pool, I hope this cretin hasn't bred. I also suspect a certain Mr. Darwin has his "evolver" pointed in Laughing Boy's general direction.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
I know Romford station very well (I was there about a week ago) The rolling stock was prabably a Class 312 electric unit. That guy was very lucky as the 312's are generlly only used on rush hour services.
Simon
Swindon UK
Many will forget WTC 911..truly a Lords miracle that so many walked away almost unscathed. I remember 'The Luckiest Man in Iraq' from CNN with the B/W videos of a 'smart bomb' targeted upon a bridge that managed to drive off just before the bridge was turned into rubble.
September 17th CI class was lucky too. CI Peter
The irony:
"If it had been one of our modern trains he would certainly have been killed."
Apparently, Great Britain has greater tolerances for spacing between track and platform than the United States does. Had this happened here, the only way the guy would have lives is if it had been a platform on the B Division with a No. 7 train out of service and headed for Coney Island passing by.
Apparently, Great Britain has greater tolerances for spacing between track and platform than the United States does. Had this happened here, the only way the guy would have lives is if it had been a platform on the B Division with a No. 7 train out of service and headed for Coney Island passing by.
Or possibly an LIRR train on Track One at Atlantic Avenue.
I have heard of a toddler who survived being run over by a slow moving train. He was on the tracks, squarely between the running rails. The train was moving relatively slowly; the conductor (or brakeman?) climbed out of the locomotive cab, reached down and pushed the child's head flat onto the tracks just before the locomotive ran over him. The child emerged unscathed.
Many people have survived in the gap b/t the locomotive and the ties.
Wow. Now I know I'll have nightmares tonight. I never thought that was even possible to survive. What was this BUTTHEAD thinking?
What was this BUTTHEAD thinking?
He wasn't... that's the point :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"....dropped muh beer...."
-Hank
Was a heavy overhaul performed on the R62/A's, or is one planned for the near future? I was just wondering since they are in pretty rough shape.
Thanks in advance!
The R-62s and R-62As have never received a GOH (General OverHaul), and it is unlikely that they ever will since for the past ten years or so NYCT has used SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). Under SMS, components are overhauled or replaced based on life cycle.
By the way, what does "rough shape" mean? The cars run very well and reliably. Perhaps the author is referring to cosmetic condition -- in my opinion, the cars do LOOK worse for wear; the stainless steel interior walls were intended to make graffiti easy to remove, but the vandals just switched to scratching, which is easy to apply and more permanent.
David
Thanks David! And you did interpret 'rough shape' correctly.
Cosmetically many of the R-62s do look a little worse for the wear, but when they're cleaned up they still look pretty good considering. When the "Redbirds" were the same age as the R-62s they looked much worse with dirt and graffiti all over the cars. By comparision the "Redbirds" when they were 15 years old looked like basket cases, by contrast the R-62s look like they have plenty of years left ahead of them.
#3 West End Jeff
Probably because they were better built. I mean, Carbon Steel isn't exactly a model use for building anymore.
Part of the reason the 'birds looked so gawdawful when they were 15 years old was because that was at the height of the MTA's neglegence period for the subways in general. Not only did all the IRT trains look awful, but the R-32, 38, 40 and 42 cars (espeically the R-42s) were in horrid shape as well by the end of the 70s.
Had the R-62s been delievered to the system in 1968 instead of 1985, they would have suffered the same graffiti and deferred maintenace fate as the Redbirds during that period, minus the rusting problems.
I was thinking, would you consider the 5 car groupings of R62/62A a kind of overhaul since some components were removed?
Not onlt did the MTA neglect to maintain the subway cars during the 1970s they also neglected the stations too so that they looked like hell until they finally started to clean them up starting in the mid-1980s. During those thankless years of neglect, brand new subway cars would look like hell in short order. As you might recall, trains of R-44s and 46s would sometimes have graffiti scrawled on them before they even entered revenue service for the first time. That was the low point for the New York City subway system. Now it is many times better.
#3 West End Jeff
What transit oxymorons can you think of that makes no sense? Like having a word that combines say two modes that are not combinable?
e.g.
AirTrain
AirBus
RailRoad
AirShip
HorseCart
RoadRailer
Can people think of any more?
Rapid Transit
Preventive Maintainence
avid
Preventive Maintainence
My favorite is "deferred maintenance."
Rush Hour
avid
Bus Rapid Transit
Especially in New York. Leisurely Transit is more like it.
ROTFL
Lightrail, Flood Car, Work Train, Storm Door, anti-climber
light rail works, but none of the others
Vancouver B.C.'s Skytrain...especially when it is underground downtown.
Elevated Subway
open cut station
Explain yourself, that is not an oxymoron.
>>> that is not an oxymoron <<<
Don't sweat it! Most of the examples in this thread, including those in the original post do not fit the definition of an oxymoron (a combination of contradictory or incongruous words such as "cruel kindness"). Therefore a term like "rapid transit" is not in itself an oxymoron, but some who are dissatisfied with the speed of the "A" division subway might consider "Interborough Rapid Transit" to be an oxymoron.
Tom
Is that where you go to the station with an open cut on your hand and the token clerk refuses to give you a Band-Aid?
Completed Second Ave. Subway
Completed Second Ave. Subway
It may cease to be an oxymoron some day. Check back in, oh, 100 years or so.
Yeah we'll have a 2nd Ave subway clinking along in 100 years, and in Japan they'll have personalized flying machines for every man, woman and child that goes 250 mph and gets its power from ordinary seawater...
skip-stop
Reliable 2 and 5 service.
make that
Reliable Anything
How about the R-142 announcement: 'We are sorry for the unavoidable delay'....as if there is an avoidable delay. ;)
That is a transit redundency... like "last and final stop".
AEM7
IND (Independent) of what? Not of the other two divisions. Maybe back in the 1930's that was true.
BMT Astoria (Queens) line and BMT Jamaica Line.
Manhattan Bridge repaired.
Heard on Newsradio 88 this morning, Tom Kaminski said, "I've been in the traffic reporting business for 20 years now, and the Manhattan Bridge was under construction when I started working. It's STILL under construction!"
--Mark
They keep repairing and repairing like an Energizer bunny.
Chaohwa
At least the bunny keeps beating his drum.
Things have been insanely busy on this end, and didn't get a chance to sit down with Thursday's Times Union until last night, spotted this "Bruno's CDTA geniuses strike AGAIN!" This is ANOTHER brand new shrine train station, this time instead of Rensselaer, it's SARATOGA that gets a brand new shrine at Amtrak's expense (after all, Amtrak's ROLLING in cash) ...
But it gets better ... as part of this NEW project, NEW station, the existing one will be torn down FIRST (I suppose to minimize Gunn's complaints) and will be replaced with a genuine upstate New York DOUBLEWIDE TRAILER made in Baltimore ...
Story here, no subscription required ... read it and weep. Gotta admire the brass stones of politicos that have already have nothing to fear from the voters:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=58640&category=REGION&newsdate=10/3/2002
Here we go AGAIN ... same cast of characters ...
Meanwhile, we REALLY need some working busses, but CDTA will have none of that. Shows ya what happens when CROOKS run unopposed ...
I got of the train in Saratoga once. No one else did. I looked for a cab. None bothered to show up. I had to walk all the way to town.
Not at all uncommon. Folks arrive at Saratoga either in a limousine or a bus. Now, building a PALACE in Rensselaer may or may not have been justified (getting in and out of there takes FOREVER now compared to get off the train and go as before) but if you check the passenger and use statistics for Saratoga, a double-wide TRAILER is more facility than will ever be USED.
But, it's Joe Bruno's NYS Senate district and US Representative John "let's cut government spending so we can cut taxes" Sweeney's district and THIS monument is likely to become the John Sweeney Amtrak Train station because having TWO Joe Bruno stations so close would confuse train crews. :)
New York's stupidity on locating rail stations goes back a while, as anyone who attmpted to use mass transit to board an Amtrak train in Syracuse up until about a decade ago will attest. And since I tried, I'm attesting:
When the state realigned the rail line in order to build I-690, they relocated the station from its downtown Erie Blvd. site (giving the station itself to Greyhound and Trailways), and put it in Renssalear -- no strike that, they relocated it in East Syracuse, but it felt like it was in Renssalear if you tried to take a Centro bus out to the station from downtown. The station itself was right near the I-481 overpass on N.Y. 298 and as a result, you had to endure an excruciatingly s-l-o-w ride out from downtown along James Street, since the station had as much justification as a "Syracuse" stop serving the whole commuinty as New Carrollton on the Amtrak main line does to being the main Washington, D.C. station (and at least you can take Orange line from downtown D.C. out there).
The East Syracuse station itself was slightly bigger than a doublewide, but not much, and of course, the Centro schedules bore absolutely no relationship to the train timetables. Fortunately, the city and state saw the light and relocated the Amtrak station on the north side of downtown (and even relocated Greyhound to the same place for better connections) when the Carousel Center went up.
Wish there was a safe place to stop the car and take a picture of the old Erie Blvd. station platform. It's right next to the offramp from I-690 to northbound I-81. There are life-sized black silhouettes of people standing on the platform, waiting for a train that will never arrive.
Took some pictures of the new Syracuse Amtrak station yesterday - I'll post them once I get the film developed.
A reminder that the Greenberg Train Show is being held at Hofstra University's Physical Fitness Center, Hempstead Turnpike, Hempstead LI.
The dates are Sat. Oct. 5th and Sunday 6th 2002.
Hours are 10:00AM - 4:00PM Sat. and Sun.
Admission is $7 adults, $2 children 6-12, Scouts in uniform addmitted FREE. Admission is good for BOTH days.
For info, call (410) 795-7447 or go to the web at www.greenbergshows.com
I went there today. Didn't see any familiar Subtalkers, but did buy the 2003 Subway Calendar printed by Newkirk Images. Nice job, Bill.
I was there as well from 1-3 pm today. I was the 1 that was wearing the #7 Manhattan to Queens baseball cap. Buses, trains, cars, trucks, planes, army equipment, you name it they had it. I sure hope that this show comes back again to NYC very soon after tomorrow-best show I've been to yet.
Only bought 3 subway images there.
Did anyone catch the R36 Bluebirds there-9750-9751? $339-350. Expensive but impressive!
A good day all around indeed!!!
#9751 7 Flushing Local
Greenberg usually has a show at Hofstra around this time each year. They also have a show at SUNY-Stony Brook every March. Check their website for the 2003 dates.
They used to have a fall and spring show within two weeks of each other at each school but I figure that the proximity of both schools and dates were counter-productive. I live in between both schools and would do four shows a year.
Hey, Bob! I was there -- briefly -- just about 3:30 pm and stayed till closing. I ran into Jack LaRossa (Image Replicas). He had a BEATUTIFUL display model of his soon-to-be-released A-B Standards. I also picked up a copy of ElectricLines from him that I was missing from my collection.
I stopped by on the layout area of the show (toward the back of the room) where I said 'hi' to the Long Island Traction Club group (I know one of their members, Bob P., the retired NYC cop who used to volunteer at the Transit Museum).
Actually, my day ended up being free so I decided to go to the Greenberg Show...I was originally supposed to be on a Transit Museum-sponsored LIRR trip to Greenport & Riverhead, but due to a BIE on the #2 yesterday morning -- right outside 14th Street -- I was late and missed the train by five minutes!(@$&%#). So, I used the day for errands....and dropping in on the Greenberg Show.
Me and the the wife were there from about 1PM to 3PM. I looked at the trains while she looked at the Dollhouses and miniatures.
I Loved those (Railking? MTH?) R-36 World's Fair trains, which I saw for the first time. Unfortunately. I have N gauge and G guage, with nothing in-between.
BY the way, If any of you Subtalkers would like to buy a bunch of N or G scale stuff - send me an email.
Seems that I have to "refresh" every time I want to post to Subtalk because when I first load in a particular post, my info (handle/password) is missing. Anyone else having this problem, or is it my pathetically obsolete WebTV box?
No problems here... three boxes running different versions of Mac OS and different versions of Netscape (no Netscape 7 though - beware of that!) and no problems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WebTV has some problems with cookies since the big "MSN-TV" changeover. Microsoft believes that if a site doesn't sign on to Microsoft PASSPORT then they don't need to store the cookies as an "inducement" to Unca Dave P to come on over to the "dark side" and stop being a Unix "evil-doer" ... :)
No such problem here with Sony W-200 box.
Hmmm, I have the same exact type of box. Perhaps my info is getting screwed up because I post from 2 different locations (with my WebTV and my PC).
Unless you change your password between uses, it shouldn't matter if you post at two places.
I do too. My Joisey URL is recognised but my NooYawk is not.
This may sound silly but I had a similar problem. In the end it was the date on my PC that was wrong. I dont know if Web TV has a date setting but it may be worth checking
Simon
Swindon UK
I had to get from Pacific to 77 on the 4th Ave line. {I am well versed with the 9/8 changes and know where everything is SUPPOSED to go.} Waiting for an R, it never came. An N to 86th was waiting on the express track, and a W came and went. With the N ready to go and no R, I decided to take the N, it was an R40M. Fast express ride to 25th, crossed over to local at 36th. I knew why---laid up R trains on the Southbound exp track from 36 to 59. Unfortunately, the signage on the express track at 36th say N express to 86th, all times. No mention of the train coming in on the other track at all. The train still skipped 45 and 53 even though it was on the local track and went right to 59. The signage there was on the express track, N train all times, on the local track, R train all times. Nothing else, even though the N was on the local track. And for some reason the line seemed more messed up than it was supposed to be. At 36th, my N waited and waited. At 59th I had to let my N and the N behind it go by before my R came. Coming back, the express N waited and waited at 36th again before going to Pacific. The R-32s have 36th St as the last stop and this was confusing people. Many put one leg in the train and one leg on the platform until they knew what was what. More explicit, CORRECT signage is seriously needed on this line.
The important thing is that all the trains are going to where the signs say they are. The track they come in on is irrelevant since people should and generally do look at all incoming trains. Looking at trains on both tracks also helps for the unexpected, like if a train is temporarily rerouted over the other track due to broken train or broken rail.
You can't sign every track for every possible combination in changed service. That would be even more confusion.
But this is going to be regular, not special.
Is there anywhere in the New York Subway system a line more pathetic and dull that the 4th Avenue Local? It is slower than sin, stays underground the whole time and offers nothing in the way of enjoyment unless you are looking for some rats in the Montague Tunnel. I hated that line when I was a kid. We would take it at Queens Plaza, which was its only outside stop before being sent to Astoria in 1949. From there it was a tedious five stops that never seemed to get there until we could disembark at 42nd Street and wait for the great Sea Beach that would take us express through Manhattan and Brooklyn to grandma's house or Coney Island. The only other fly in the ointment was on the way back we had to get back on to that shit train for five grueling stops home.
But this isn't a reroute. On weekends, all N, R, and W trains are on the local tracks at 36th -- the W because it runs local between 36th and Pacific, and the N because of laid-up R trains on the express tracks.
what time was this? the N departs Pacific St on the weekends from the express track and runs express to 59th St. then local to 86th St.Of course if there isnt any space to lay up anymore trains on the QB Line express track after Continental Av. then the best place to lay up some R trains would be on the 4th Av. express track.Maybe the R was delayed or something that's why it took a long time to show up.
Believe me,that's nothing new.It happens several times.If the signs say a train will stop on that track all times it will unless something else happens that it can't.And I guess the R32's dont have Pacific St on the rollsigns so 36th St had to be used.Strange though,since 9/8,all weekend N's were supposed to be R68/68A OPTO. So why the heck was there an R32 and 40M on the N? the R68's DO have Pacific St. on the rollsigns.So it would make sense that all weekend N's should be R68's so that people won't be confused like they were.
On the first day of Brooklyn-only N service, I saw R40's and R32's with "Shuttle" as the northern terminal.
They still have that on the R40Ms. For some reason R32s had 36th St.
"If the signs say a train will stop on that track all times it will unless something else happens that it can't"
Apparently, you haven't seen this website.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/absurd/index.html
"So it would make sense that all weekend N's should be R68's so that people won't be confused like they were."
Well, I saw ZERO R68s or R68As on the N that entire day.
My favorite 4th Ave/Brighton line signage right now is the small strip signs installed on the station pillars in Union Sq. 14th St. (and possibly others). It seems that Brooklyn has annexed a good portion of Lower Manhattan. How this got beyond so many people and actually got printed, framed and installed all over the Union Sq. 14th St. station without flags going out is beyond me. LMAO.
I vaguely remember some kinda grade time signals on the Blue Line under the harbor on the way to the airport. Can anyone supply details?
The Blue is loaded with timers almost all over the line. The ones under the harbor heading eastbound are the most fun to run as they clear at about 38-39 mph.
Vandal shield is already on the new cars R-142/142A, R-143, And the upcoming R-160. Why didn't the MTA come up with this idea in the late 80's and why isn't it on the older cars today?
What is it?
the Mylar on the windows. its known as vandalshield. the stuff that that once it gets scratched or ruined, the window is safe. it is placed back on. its on the R-142,142a,143,160(coming soon), late model buses(the upcoming Orion(Ontario)7cng low floor)
Oh yes, that. I knew that but I didn't know it went under that name. So, is Mylar your standard protection plastic or is it special?
i wouldn't know if it were special or standard, i just know that it takes the scratches for glass and basically reduces vandalism because the vandals are fooled that the glass is repairable and no matter how many times they try to do scratch, their tags won't be there. i guess thats why up to this day on the new trains you don't see any signs of trying to scratch windows.
i guess thats why up to this day on the new trains you don't see any signs of trying to scratch windows.
On the L last week I was on an R-143 (front car, naturally :-)) and it had a few scratchitti'd windows and one or two door panels. Guess they hadn't gotten around to replacing the mylar, if that's what it is.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Wait till the maggots figure out what is what. I want perforated stainless steel panels instead of glass....cut out all HVAC. Freeze in the winter, cook in the summer. New Tech is so inhospidable to passengers...can't even sleep comfortably on the seats! CI Peter
adding on to my post, i also noticed on a downtown six under the windows where you see through to another car, i notice that a vandal had put a deep scaring tag into the formica paneling. knowing that formica can't sustain that level of damage but isn't there a tougher version of formica? also, its a good thing they used white paneling for the new cars except the R-143 because i have seen scrathes on the plastic panels and from far away you can't see it at all. but one thing it can't sustain is fire (its still flame retardant but it shows brown)
Vandal Shield is a proprietary name for a Mylar self adhesive similar to 'cold lamination' of documents. You catch the edge of the scratched Mylar, pull it off like a bandage, examine the glass for traces of adhesive which must be removed with a special razor scraper, you spray the window with distilled water mixed with a minute amount of surfactant, slowly remove the VandalShield backing applying the same solution from a pump sprayer, lay the VandalShield up against the glass and squegee out the water. Stuff is not 100%...there can be defects and TA usually does not allow proper layup of the trainset for proper setting.
Redbirds have a Teflon based paint that resists almost all markers...the R142 trainsets have Formica panels that are 'taggers heaven'.....seating is crap too...etchings are eradicated by four steps of abrasives and buffed with 3M Micropore compound....IF the etchings are not too deep. What is worse is the etchings done into stainless steel pilasters by the doors...TA has not discovered that #60 emery cloth and a steady hand works.
Oil, brakes, windows, doors, interior...blue and yellow lines painted on the track floors...Car Inspectors do everything!!! CI Peter
wow. thats alot of work. but it seems that.....it is vandal resistant because you could apply all that work to older trains and it wouldn't work. the redbird paints have polyurethane. not teflon. and i think they discovered #60 emery cloth because an r 142 that i rode with the "storm doors" had eched tag in the door (6418) and when i rode the car again a year later it was gone.
Engineering is just discovering emery and crocus cloth...I've used the materiels for years in metal maintainance and gunsmithing. If it is a door panel really bad....it gets replaced by the vendors but the time is coming when vendors will be gone. Deep etchings cannot be eradicated by casual abrasive use. CI Peter
Because scratchitti wasn't a problem until the mid 1990's.
-Hank
It may not have become a major problem until the mid '90's, but I remember the windows being scratched on the R42's when they were first coming back rebuilt around 1989 and early 90's. The R68's were also severely scratched already in the very early 90's
Once the MTA fixed the trains so that they could not be painted... the vandals found out that they could scratch the windows. Before that there was no reason to try.
Elias
That's exactly what it is. I remember being on a J train when the R42's were first coming back (hey, that's when I was more excited about getting a freshly refurbished R42, than a red R30!). I was so pissed when a group of kids were scratching the windows on that train that day. It's one of the first times I saw the windows scratched. The R16's, R27-30's, etc always looked bad and were filthy, but at least the windows were clear (well, at least when they weren't spraypainted).
In case anyone is interested there is a show on the San Francisco cable cars on the History Channel RIGHT NOW!! It started at 7:00.
>>In case anyone is interested there is a show on the San Francisco cable cars on the History Channel RIGHT NOW!! It started at 7:00.<<
Is that the "Hands On" series I saw on the History Channel ?... If so, there was one episode with the Boston subway on it a couple of weeks ago. The narrator of the show operated a Red Line subway train under supervision. Tonight, the narrator climbed aboard a highway line painting truck and painted a double yellow line on section of the old Route 66. I guess the show makes the narrator a working part of the show and not just asking questions.
Bill "Newkirk"
In case anyone is interested there is a show on the San Francisco cable cars on the History Channel RIGHT NOW!! It started at 7:00.
Watch for Ron Hazelton's inexperienced braking put a major and NOISY flat spot on the weels of the car he's controlling. Reminded me of the 6th Ave shuttle, circa fall 1986.
The Boston T episode of HoH was on 2 weeks ago. I'm hoping they repeat the episode where he was here in NYC. He was given permission to operate a train!
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Would the MTA wil provide new train on the
A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,L,M,N,Q,R,W,S,V,Z,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9
new trains will come to the A,C,E,J,L*,M,N,Q,Z,4*,5*. They are already on the 2 and 6 lines.
* means that these lines has a few and more are coming monthly
A,C,E,J,M,Z,N,Q will get the the R160 cars with the J,M,Z getting the 4 car sets[480 ft cars],and the A,C,E,N and Q get the 5 car sets. The L and M has the 143's,2/5 the 142,and the 4/6 the 142a's.....
and in the near the future the 3 will also be all 142's when all of the cars that are used on the 3 currently,are sent to the 7 so that the 7 will be 100% R62A.And currently R143's operate on the M during the weekend as shuttle service.And the A,C will be the first 2 lines to recieve the R160's.
None of that is in stone, though some parts are more likely than others.
David
This information,I pulled from the T.A's own web site,ALONG with some other things. The R160 cars will arrive in two types... 4 car sets for EASTERN DIVISION LINES out of EAST NEW YORK YARDS,and 5 car sets the 8th ave lines out of PITKIN YARDS....other wise J/M/L/Z/A and C. What evers left would most likely go to the N/Q lines form C.I. If Im wrong,then the TA posted misinformation....
2,4,5,6-lines that have/will get R142
3,7- may get R142 later
L,M- lines with R143
J,M,Z- Primary R160
other b-div- Secondary R160
The 7 may not get the R142, due to Third Rail shoe problems between the R142 pick up show and the Third Rail.
-AcelaExpress2005
the 7 will not get R-142's period. the 3 line will not get R-142's period.
Wrong. The 3 will be getting R-142's -- by the time all the R-142's are in, the 3 will have no more R-62A's.
If neither the 3 nor the 7 got R-142's, the 7 wouldn't be able to get rid of its Redbirds.
That's not in stone, either.
David
I thought it was.
What are the other possiblilities? (Redbirds back on the 2? No, I'm afraid that doesn't seem likely.)
Not Redbirds...Hi-Vs!
Just kidding. There's been internal talk of an alternate car assignment, but so far it's just talk. It doesn't affect the Flushing Line -- that much I can say.
David
I'm afraid Hi-V's mean nothing to me. I want my R-33's back on the 2. I'll settle for the 1 or 3 if need be. That's my vote.
What's that, you say? I don't get to vote?
I don't want those Rustbirds back on the 2. I've been waiting for years for them to finally be off the 2 and I'll be damned if I have to see them back. I don't mind if they go on the 3, the 3 doesn't run at night and they can rest for the night if they're on the 3. But no Redbirds back on the 2!
I would think the conversion of the #3 to R142's would be the most feasible scenerio. Current Livonia and past Pelham R62A's combined would be enough to replace every Flushing R36/R33S.
Yes IT IS in stone! The 3 will be 100% R142 when the remaining 150 cars or so are delivered,the 7 will be 100% R62A.I've gone through the books and manuel's and I've seen it all.Also that's gonna happen within the next few years or so is making a connection to Sunnyside Yard so that it will be used as the new subway yard for Queens to relieve Jamaica Yard.
Please provide the names of these documents as well as the names and titles of the authors and the dates the documents were issued.
As to Sunnyside Yard and Jamaica Yard, what do either of these locations have to do with R-142 assignments? In any case, it should be remembered that NYCT has coveted space in Sunnyside Yard since around 1990 and shows no signs of moving there. Last I heard, Amtrak decided it wanted to keep the space NYCT wants...of course, that was before David Gunn took the reins of Amtrak, so that may change, too.
David
unfortuantely my memory sucks like hell,therefore I cannot provide the names or title's of the documents.
With all due respect and not to begin an argument, you are a very opinionated and argumetative young lady. I say that because you state that you can't remember where you got your facts but you expect people to trust your memory about those same facts.
Let me give you a few facts that I can document. I have in front of me the most recent version of a book called "Subway Service Strategy". It was put out by the Senior VP of the Department of Subways, MTA NYCT in March of this year. I doubt that you've seen anything more recent.
In it, it talks about 1,550 R-142 and R-142A cars spread "Over various lines". It (the most recent document published) does not lock the R-142 or R-142A fleets into any specific lines. At no point does it say that the #3 line will be exclusively R-142/R-142A cars nor does it say that the #7 line will be exclusively R-62As
Second: The new Corona Barn will be built to handle R-142 & R-142A subway cars. This is not a fantasy. The new shop will be completed before 2007. At that point, Corona will be able to handle R-142 and R-142A cars. But even before the new shop is completed all routine maintenance on the R-142/R-142A fleet (except HVAC) can be done in the old shop. HVAC can be done in Coney Island. In support of this, let me say that Pelham shop has not been rebuilt and does maintain the R-142As quite well.
Third, you show much about your lack of political savy. Let's see, the Bronx is getting new subway cars. Brooklyn is getting new subway cars. Manhattan is getting new subway cars. What do you think the Queens BP is saying about getting rid of the redbirds only to get someone elses hand-me-downs. When there was talk of moving the R-46s to Brooklyn, Queens BP Claire Schulman was very vocal in her opposition. When the #7 line express service was suspended to permit the Queens Blvd. viaduct to be rebuilt, Ms Schulman held up the construction at a penalty of $20,000 per day to the contractor from the MTA, until the #7 line MDBF was improved. Do you honestly think that a politically entity like the MTA can ignore such intense political pressure.
With all due respect to your age and with consideration for your obvious passion for the subject - there are a few of us here that actually do have some information that you do not have. There are some of us here who actually know what we are talking about. I would suggest you begin to listen a little more - pontificate a little less and drop the arrogance.
TD
I could care less about politics.I say they should mind their business when subway construction needs to be done.If it needs to be done,it needs to be done,no but's,and's or if's.Most of the subway system is either near,at,or over 100 years old so there has to be several spots where part of the track bed or signals need to be fixed or replaced.That part about a $20,000 penalty to the contractor during the Queens Blvd Viaduct reconstruction is a piece of BS.She should've minded her own business and let them do what they were supposed to do.Suspending express service between Queensboro Plz and Woodside-61St. was a small sacrifice for having to rebuild a viaduct that quite frankly,made the way the Franklin Av. Shuttle train stations look like they didnt need a makeover as much as the Viaduct did.
Now politics and any other type of opposition better stay out of the MTA's business of extending the 7 to the Javits Center.I say that was long awaited AND what's also long awaited is the blasted 2nd Av subway.Now THAT really needs to be built.So if the residents along 2nd Av don't like it when the time comes,they can take thier complaints and shove up their behind.That 2nd Av subway is wayyyyyy long overdue.
Easing overcrowding on the Lexington Av 4/5/6 is more important than whatever the 2nd Av. residents have might/will have against it.
Well, it's pretty clear your mind's made up.
The only problem is, peole aren't likely to respond well to that kind of approach...but with time, you'll get the drift.
Your attitude does not serve you well. I don't know what makes you so angry but it's surely not knowledge that makes you so arrogant. Too bad because there is so much you could learn but you'll likely just turn everyone off with your 'rag' attitude.
It's this simple:If something need's to be done,why does somebody have to go and try and make it complicated? Just let the TA workers or the contractors do thier job and that's that.If it need's to be done anyway,why make a federal case out of it? That's what makes me mad.It's as if they're BEGGING for an accident to happen and not giving a damn about it.
Because, it is not as easy as you'd like it to be. Don't you pay attention to any of the posts here? At least 1/2 of the threads touch on politics. Subways are not operated in a vacuum. The MTA is a quasi-city/state agency. It feeds at the public trough. Everyone who has an opinion gets a say in everything the TA does. I could cite one example after another to prove this but you don't seem to want to grasp the concept. Why don't you try to slow down and think things through before you go off into another tirade. Then I'll be happy to discuss this matter with you to whatever extent you wish.
Yo V Train, you need to listen to TrainDude, he is very informative about things in the MTA and 99.9% of the time, he is correct, So Just chill out, because the attitude you have now is drawing SubTalkers away from you instead of helping you.
-AcelaExpress2005
99% correct? - when was I wrong?
Ok 100%, I wasn't trying to make you seem perfect, because nobody in this world is perfect.
-AcelaExpress2005
When you decded not to be a "limp-wristed liberal?"
:0)
And to add to my previous post,I only have one thing to say and that's I absoultely hate politics.It bores me to death.So long as this city is staying as the greatest city in the whole world,I could care less who's the mayor or who the governor is.
Embracing politics is like puckering up and kissing a pig. Agreed. But DO bear in mind that those weasels you're ignoring COUNT on people ignoring them so they can play their games in the shadows. Like it or not, you've got to keep your eye on them as surely as that pickpocket or potential rapist. Seriously. I despise politics and those who play it too. But I've learned over the years to keep a sharp eye peeled on them ... dang! My wallet's missing. :)
forget it,no matter what they do,politics will never get my attention.
Which is precisely why they don't give a crap about you and your views. The polititians know people your age group generally don't care about politics so they won't care about the issues that affect you. They'll worry about the senior citizens who have time to vote and try to win their vote with issues that affect them. Back to trains, just remember there are people who are very well respected in here and have a wealth of information that you might want to pay more attention to more often.
You should really consider having your head extracted from your ass.
Peace,
ANDEE
Lucky for you,I'm gonna let that one slide pal.But next time you're gonna be in big time trouble.
>>> Lucky for you,I'm gonna let that one slide pal.But next time you're gonna be in big time trouble. <<<
LOL. Some of you are go