Hi everybody
Here's a picture (resized and lower resolution) that I took of the sun setting over the Culver tracks...
Don't ask why SeaBeach53 was on Culver...
This was at Bay Parkway, one of the few stations on the Culver that do not have those high steel gates...yep, if some nut was to come push me over, I would've fallen right into the cemetary...
I don't know how to insert a link, so you'll have to copy & paste...
Next picture will be of Sea Beach...
Enjoy.
Jonathan / SeaBeach53
http://members.aol.com/jsyee53/myhomepage/culversunset.jpg
And here's your picture as a link. Do a View Source to see how I did it. (Nice shot, BTW.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Very nice picture. Was it around 7 when it happened? Just curious.
I just bought a new smart media card for my digital camera and had 250 pics...anyway, I stood at the Manhattan bound Bay Parkway station for over an hour starting from 6:45 until it was really too dark...
I got some good ones, some going down the express tracks, some with the Ver. Naroows Bridge in the back...
I also went to Astoria for pics of the N, you really can't take good pics of Sea Beach, I'm going to try Ft Hamilton Pkwy (CI bound side)...at least there are some trees in the back...
I'll work on posting them or maybe I'll just send them to the webmaster...
Taking pictures is the easy part...linking or posting them is another story for me...
Taking pictures is the easy part...linking or posting them is another story for me...
Well, as I noted a couple of posts above, just View Page Source and see how it's done... how do you think I learned how to do it? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for responding. Good work!
That's right Sea Beach 53. I want to see some Sea Beach shots AND THE SOONER THE BETTER!!!!!!
Calm down, Fred...calm down!
Hey Marty, thanks for thinking about me. However, have you read the posts about how filthy the N line is along the cut? I guess people can't empty their garbage in trash cans. They have to throw out on the tracks.
Not to mention the LIRR tracks that run through the dense part of Flushing.
Here's one:
Since we're on the topic of html coding, you could also put the picture directly in the post, like this:
Great shot!
Mark
you really can't take good pics of Sea Beach
Try the overpasses of the Sea Beach cut. In some cases, you have to hold the camera really close to the fence and zoom in a little. In some cases, you can hold the camera OVER the fence.
It made for some great video, anyway :) W's running express on Sea Beach middle helped, too.
--Mark
ok so let me try one did it show
They both look great! You guys should make a line of Subway Wallpapers.
Shows up real nice... good shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And just think how much better the picture would have been if it was a Sea Beach train featured instead of the Culver F. Still, the F line is not a bad one and the picture is a nice one nevertheless.
>>And just think how much better the picture would have been if it was a Sea Beach train featured instead of the Culver F.<<
That may be a tall order Fred, the Sea Beach is buried in cut while the Culver is elevated. Elevation is the key to a good sunset shot. Anything south of Newkirk on the Brighton and most of the West End is a shoe in.
The Fourth Avenue subway ?.........impossible !
Bill "Newkirk"
I assume that the next update subway map will be dated September 2002 with changes such as the N/W flip on 8/9 and the restore of IRT 1 2 3 9 service on 9/15. Does anyone here know the official date on when Sept 2002 map will be release or available.
I think it's a random date, considering the fact that not all stations get the latest map at the same time. Any idea which stations gets it first?
Thats what I'm trying to find out. Now that I got everything in a box map from past to present, brochures, line schedules from pas to present. Now I'm waiting for the Sept 2002 Map
According to a highly reliable source (Train Dude) you'll see them in cars this week.
I'm suprised that there's been NO bitching about the closure of Neptune Ave, West 8th St. and Ocean Pkwy. for more than a year.
Any information is greatly appreciated on subtalk.
100 Cars.
-Stef
Here's a question for those who are familiar with upstate NY area. Last weekend I rode across the Mid-Hudson bridge in Poughkeepsie. I saw the long abandoned rail bridge that has been discussed here many times. Later in the ride, I was traveling west on Rt. 213 - West of Kingston. We passed under another very similar bridge that also was clearly abandoned. It doesn't show up on my maps. The question is:
Is that bridge part of the same line that leads to the abandoned bridge that spans the Hudson? Also, what does the bridge that I saw, span? From my vantage point on Rt. 213, all I could see were trees.
That's the former Wallkill Valley Railroad that once ran north/south through Wallkill, Gardner, New Paltz, Rosendale and Port Ewen. Connected WITH the Poughkeepsie bridge somewhere as well as what is now the Delaware and Ulster Rail Ride (something you'll DEFINITELY want to do if you ever end up there again) along with the Kingston Trolley museum and a raft of other places. TMNY has some of your former B division favorites, including R4 #825 (last seen in DEPLORABLE condition) and the pride of their fleet, R16 #6398 as well as a Q car that was worse off than 825 and several others. No offense intended towards TMNY in my comments here, if you ain't got the bucks and the volunteers, ain't much you can do.
So, might we still get to MEET your skeevy butt up this way before the snow flies? :)
Thanks, Kevin. I was hoping that you had the answer. As you can see from my subsequent post, I did do the railfan thing too.
Next weekend we'll be north of you, In Lake George, for the Adarondac Custom Car Show. Got room for 10 or 12 bikes to make a pit-stop on the trip back?
You betcha ... We *OWN* the road here, all 5/8 miles of it. And as you can see if you come up the hill, we didn't get the bond issue we'd been hoping for this year owing to a crappy economy and sheety sales. However, there's a COMPANY BAR and everything's top shelf. And of course, the price is right. Heh.
Drop me an email, I'll give ya da number. But for now, I'm done for the night, need me some sleepies. Was hanging out in case you responded to the priors. Moo!
Last weekend I went riding with my club up in the Catskills. Along Rt. 28 we found two very interesting sites. One is a tourist trap called Catskill Corners. They boast having the world's largest kalidascope. That's a waste of money but the Kalidascope museum is worth a look. (Anyone got an extra $9k for a kalidascope made out of a WWII bomb site.) But further west on Rt 28 is the town of Arkville - Home of the Delaware & Ulster Railroad.
There's a fair amount of equipment in the yard in various state of repair. There's even a very old 0-6-0 tank loco with a wooden scaffold around it. Unfortunately, since I was with my club which lacks real railfans, they only wanted to spend enough time to take the ride up the mountain and back.
The train is made up of 3 old NY Central coaches, an old AMTRTAK diner and 2 railfan cars (Flatcars with benches). The segment of the line we rode was about 8 miles long and corkscrews up the mountain. Amazingly, the grade reaches 3.7% for a fair segment of the ride. The only motor power we had was the 1800 HP from an ex- D&H RS36. From the flatcar, it seemed that it handled the job with little trouble.
At the other end of the line, Highmount, the loco is cut off and run around to the other end of the train for the ride back. It was here, armed with my ID Pass and badge, that I left my friends and 'train duded' my way into the cab. The ride down the mountain was far more intersting. Brake and D-Brake the whole way. The scenery is far from spectacular or exciting, It is beautiful, however.
The loco is in emaculate condition. It was completely rebuilt just 7 years ago and wears a new $10,000 paint job in its old D&H livery. The engineer is a full-time employee and is also the head mechanic (which I found totally fascinating). The bottom line is - this is one ride worth taking (even if you won't get into the cab).
BTW, just a few miles east, on the other side of the road is the Catskill scenic railroad. The opportunity to ride two different lines within such a small geograpic area should make the trip even more appealing.
I volunteered there a long, long time ago. They used to have an RS-3 on loan (old Alco jobbie) that I delighted in running with a "pilot" riding shotgun. Hint: Wabco ME-23 type braking. :)
Glad you had a fun peek, DURR was a really nice bunch of folks and the "train robbery show" and a number of their other ministrations made for quite a bit of fun. Been a long time since I've been there though. HIGHLY recommended.
Interesting info. The Delaware & Ulster doesn't seem to get much attention, certainly not in comparison to the Catskill Scenic RR, but it sounds like an excellent ride. Do you know until when its season runs?
Through October 27th. You can check out its website here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>The train is made up of 3 old NY Central coaches<<
For your info, those three coaches are ex-SEPTA nee-Pennsylvania Railroad MP-54 MU electrics. The 'Central never had any porthole window coaches to my knowledge.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>The train is made up of 3 old NY Central coaches<<
For your info, those three coaches are ex-SEPTA nee-Pennsylvania Railroad MP-54 MU electrics. The 'Central never had any porthole window coaches to my knowledge.
Bill "Newkirk"
NY Times article.
"According to Joseph J. Seymour, executive director of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey....
"In the interview, Mr. Seymour said, 'I think you're going to find that the PATH station is going to stay where it is.' The Port Authority has already begun rebuilding the station, although it had not been clear whether that would be only a temporary station or something more permanent."
Also Seymour says the concourse from the WFC east to the Fulton St subways will not pass through the footprint of the north tower.
Full article at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/01/nyregion/01TRAN.html.
(You need a free login to read it).
According to New York Post, Port Authority is already working on rebuilding the station. My opinion is to use the Church St abandoned PATH station instead of the WFC station.
They are already building a temporary station on the site of the former (1970-2001) station. What Seymour is saying is that will probably be the permanent station as well, i.e., that they probably won't build the permanent station closer to Church St.
Well, PATH can still be intergrated fairly easily with the IRT 1/9 lines, and that line was always going to need a connecting tunnel to make the one-block link to the A/C/E/N/R, so the decision doesn't have to cause major problems with the "unified transit hub" plan.
The bigger question is about the connecting tunnel. Going by the article, from a practical standpoint, it's hard to figure how they plan to lower West Street, move the underground pathway over to Vescey Street and place the new commuter tunnel above the tracks in the B'way Nassau complex over at Fulton without coming up with a real roller-coaster zig-zag of a tunnel.
Lowering West Street means you can create an enclosed walkway at street level there, but you'd have to enclose it almost all the way up to Greenwhich Street, start lowering it below ground while next to the Verizon building (and the footprint of Tower 2 -- don't see how you can make that look very pretty). But you can't lower it much, because of the IRT 1/9 tunnel at Greenwich, so the builders will have to recreate the "Great Wall of Vescey Street," with any memorial plaza for the towers one level above the street (the same as the old WTC plaza in that area)
The walkway could run all the way to Vescey Street ... until it hits Church, then it's blocked by BMT N/R tracks, which would be on the same level, both on Church and Vescey streets. Unless they plan to lower the BMT tunnel, the pedestrian walkway will have to drop down at least one level to get under those tracks. That's OK, because unless they plan to also drop the IRT 4/5 tracks on Broadway one level, they'll have to have the walkway two flights below ground to get past those tracks.
Add to the fact that only one line through the B'way-Nassau complex even platforms as far north as Vescey (the J/M, which has a platform at Ann and Nassau Street) and the choice of Vescey for a walkway becomes even stranger. Odds are the walkway would zig back towards Fulton/Cortlandt sts once it's east of the Tower 2 footprint, and then turn east again under Fulton or Cordlandt beneath the BMT tracks on Church and the IRT tracks at Broadway and (if on Fulton) above the IND A/C tracks.
That's still a pretty winding route and I doubt it's what most people are envisioning. If they can squeeze the walkway into the area between the footprints of Towers 1 and 2 they really ought to think about it (and I still think instead of lowering West St., lowering the 1/9 tracks one level with a center-island platform would make more sense. The pedestrian walkway could then be run in a straight line and on the same level all the way from Nassau Street to the World Financial Center (which would also eliminate any escalators and ADA-mandated elevators a tunnel on more than one level would require).
It's definitely complicated, but perhaps not exactly as you are thinking of it.
- Seymour said the walkway would be further north toward Vesey St, not necessarily underneath it. It could be underneath the extension of Fulton St, where the former north bridge was.
- The ground level slopes. Broadway is a level higher than Church St, which is a level higher than West St.
One guess for the walkway (just based on common sense, no inside knowledge):
- 2 levels below Broadway (equivalent to 1 level below Church)
- Drops to be 2 levels below Church St so it gets under the N/R. It can do this as a ramp, no need for an escalator.
- Rises to be at ground level at Greenwich St (equivalent to 1 level below Church). Again, probably a ramp.
- Crosses West St at ground level.
Alternate plan:
- 2 levels below Broadway (equivalent to 1 level below Church)
- Drops to be 2 levels below Church St so it gets under the N/R.
- Drops to 2 levels below Greenwich St
- Crosses 2 levels underneath West St.
I noticed in the A and L train timestables that some L's terminate at Atlantic Av and some A's terminate at Rkwy Blvd. How do they do this? Does the A relay using the Ozone Pk express track or sun light and relay at Howard Beach? About the L to Atlantic, does it run light to Canarsie yard? Just curious, thanks.
Usually when a L train goes out of servive at Atlantic Ave, it goes to East NY yard. Othertimes it goes out of service at Rockaway Parkway and goes into Canarsie yard.
I have in my hand a timetable for the A line and I don't see any trains going out of service at Rockaway Blvd. I've noticed them going in/out of service at Lefferts Blvd or Far Rockaway.
Actually, some post AM rush hour L trains go o/s at Atlantic then go directly into Canarsie Yard so as to avoid the extra move at Canarsie. They can do this since the ridership in that direction that time of the day would be low.
If they're going to Canarsie Yard, why go o/s at Atlantic not E105?
Because when I worked there they ran your follower around you while you cleared the train of passengers. No can do at E. 105.
Will that still be possible after the Atlantic rebuild?
I was once on a train signed for Atlantic, but it was actually taken out of service at ENY.
"some A's terminate at Rkwy Blvd"
What the schedule means when it says "every 10 minutes to Rockaway Blvd" is not that it terminates there, but that every 10 minutes a trains goes in that direction. Once there, it continues either to Lefferts or Far Rockaway.
Thanks
Does anyone know the status of the museum and how it looks? And when in 2003 will it be open?
As a result of the events of September 11 the TA put the museum project on the back burner. Maybe after subway service is restored to lower Manhattan on Sept. 15 the TA can get back to the museum. Don't blame the TA this time, put the blame on those whacko fundamentalist murderers.
Please cite a source to back up the contention that the museum project is on the back burner. I work across the street from the place, and it looks like it's still under construction.
David
Never judge a book by it's cover...
What's being done downstairs counts!
Actually, much of what's being done there would be visible from the street - the addition of ADA compliant elevators etc. - a significant undertaking in and of itself.
wayne
They are not putting elevators in. The museum has had ADA compliant chair lifts for a few years now.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, there's always Branford!
That's strange. I'm a Charter Member of the Museum, and I just received a letter from the Director telling of the great progress that's being made in the renovation. Do you know something she doesn't?
It's been my understanding that the Transit Museum has not been under the jurisdiction of the Transit Authority for quite some time. As far as I know, if it weren't for the private group taking over the museum the TA would have scuttled it years ago.
The Museum is under the control of the MTA who took it from the TA a few years back.
There is a "private" group that oversees some of the Museum operations but it is the MTA that controls it all since the Court Street station is MTA property.
Like Todd I am a charter member. The last I heard was that everything was still on track but the exact opening date has not been announced.
So Allan Grabowski - what/who is your source for the information?
Agreed, Allan! In addition, I believe that the Transit Museum is a wholly-owned, non-profit activity of MTA, which means it has 501(c)(3) IRS status, allowing donations to be tax deductible to the extent permitted by law.
>>>...which means it has 501(c)(3) IRS status...<<<
That is correct, they do. Also, according my sources, the renovation is proceeding on schedule, for the most part.
Peace,
ANDEE
The renovation is ongoing - Five days a week I see stuff coming out of the museum and going into the museum. Also,NYCT security guards are posted at the station exit.
Does anyone know the wherabouts of the Museum's rolling stock?
I am assuming they were removed from the Court St. Station.
What exactly are they doing to the museum, besides making it ADA complient?
Oh no! They're doing that?
Yeah, I think from the unused Court Street entrance to the old Court Street station. They are not doing it at the main Boerum/Schermerhorn entrance
ADA, plus A/C, plus making it more a museum then a subway station.
From artinruins.com:
----------------------------------
Vintage Trolley Discovered in RI
The Veterans Square Diner, a converted trolley car had been open for business at 1461 Main Street in West Warwick until an automobile struck it on Thursday, September 7, 2000. The severe damage and a delay in settling an insurance claim prevented reopening of the diner. The town of West Warwick purchased the diner and the property and developed a plan to demolish the
diner and create a park along the river.
Daniel Zilka, director of the American Diner Museum informed town officials of the history of the diner and the need to preserve the rare converted trolley diner structure. Originally located
on Bald Hill Road in Warwick, the diner was moved to West Warwick in the 1940s and operated by Leo La Vallee until Jules Richter purchased it in 1956. Sam Richter assumed ownership of the diner in 1981 and operated until its unplanned closing in 2000.
Members of the American Diner Museum with the help of member Dick Shappy, of Shappy Classic Cars, discovered a rare surviving Providence trolley car from 1911 encased in the structure and will be restoring the trolley.
The trolley was one of 50 units ordered in 1911 for the United Electric Company of Providence, Rhode Island. The Osgood Bradley Company of Worcester, Massachusetts, built the trolleys. This particular trolley ran from Prospect Hill to Saylesville, along Lonsdale Avenue to Pawtucket to East Providence, Crescent Park. It also operated on Academy Avenue. The trolley was retired shortly after the line to Crescent Park was abandoned in the 1924. Much of the original trolley remains in good condition including the frame, some original windows and the destination scrolls. Town officials from West Warwick have given the American Diner Museum permission to remove the trolley structure prior to clearing the property.
Workers have been deconstructing the diner over the last two weeks and plan to remove the trolley on Tuesday, August 29 and Wednesday, August 21. The trolley will be relocated to Providence and undergo restoration.
I was at pacific street/Atlantic ave. station heading to Manhattan. A 2 train r-142 passes by and I saw where it was suppose to have mta New York City subway there were mets and Yankees symbols. I knew they did that to some r-142 for the World Series, but why put that set on the 2 shouldn't it be on the 4?
"I knew they did that to some r-142 for the World Series, but why put that set on the 2 shouldn't it be on the 4?"
The R-142 was on the #4 only for a few days during the 2000 Subway World Series, as you already know. Once the series was over, the R142 went back to the #2 where it was assigned to be. Now that the R142A option order is arriving, some R142As are replacing the redbirds that are on the #4. The R142 will not run on the #4, so therefore its ok that the #2 has those cars. -Nick
Uh i think cars 6316-6320 have mets and yankee logos.the rest 6311-6315 have returned to mta logos.The Yankee pinstipe was on the train for about 2-3 months.It only ran on the #4 for two days.Then it returned an ever since was in service on the #2 line and once in service on the #5.But now on the #2 line.Saw them last week
R142/R143MAN
Sent this lovingly to "(ta)" old-timers of my own ilk, thought you folks might enjoy this too. ESPECIALLY CURRENT ROADSTERS ...
Last night while I lay sleeping,
I died or so it seems.
Then I went to heaven.
But t'was only in my dreams.
But, it seems St. Peter met me,
There at the pearly gate.
He said, "I must check your record
So stand right here and wait.
I see where you drank whiskey,
And used tobacco, too.
Fact is you've done everything
That a good person shouldn't do.
We can't have people like you up here,
Your life was full of sin.
Then he read the last of my record,
Grasped my hand and said, "Come in."
He took me up to the Big Boss,
Said "Take him in and treat him well"
He worked for the Transit Authority, sir.
He's had his share of hell.
Back int he days PRIOR to toasters on wheels, if you worked for the "(ta)" and had a 12-0 on the road, supervision didn't wrestle you out of your cab to go downtown for a community whiz. No sir. The Motor Instructor would open up their flask, make you take two gulps to "steady your nerves" SO YOU COULD FINISH YER DAMNED RUN! :)
Oh what's happened in the past 50 years? Heh.
"12-0"
Meant "12-9" ... shows ya what 37 hours awake can do to ya. moo ... ouch. I go sleepies.
For sixteen years I've pounded the road.
Got out and pushed and dumped my load.
Retrieved my portions and iron only made.
Make it to the end only not to get paid.
Forced in on my day off to get reamed more.
Where management's the ***** and I am the wh***.
I had enough crap, had enough of this bath.
I died, went not to heaven or hell, but I woke up at PATH.
See Selkirk, you aren't the only one who quit their day job.
Heh. Nice touch! :)
That poem was great. I should leave instructions in my will to have this poem emblazoned on my tombstone.
Any reports?
Some 1's, now terminating and reversing at Chambers during the rush hours will turn on the loop at South Ferry.
Outside of the rush hours the loop will remain closed by G.O.'s.
Any information is greatly appreciated on subtalk.
Go away, troll.
If you really want the answer to your question, look back through earlier SubTalk posts. The answer - which I suspect will really surprise you - is out there. But I don't think you really care, otherwise you would already have looked.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry for my ignorence, but what is a "troll"? From the usage I've seen, I'm guessing it refers to someone who makes idiotic posts looking to start controversy. I am in the ball park?
Thanks
That is one aspect of the broader definition. Another part of the definition (and the context in which I was using the term) is someone who posts simply to post and see their name or handle on the message board, with no real interest in the response. In that context, the post doesn't necessarily have to be idiotic (although it often is) and it isn't necessarily intended to start controversy. Some trolls start flame wars, others (like Busfan) are simply annoying.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another sign is when they change their handle often because everyone killfiles them and they can't get the usual response.
Thanks,
I get the picture, and I most certainly agree, it is annoying to see posters asking very basic quesitons that the anwser is readily available on the site.
I realize that at times anyone (and I include myself in the catagory), can ask a question that may be anwsered on the site, but I see what you mean about those who do it over and over.
Piggo
In brief, it was much quicker to rebuild at the 1970-2001 site than at the pre-1970 site. The pre-1970 site does not accomodate the lnegth of train that PATH now uses.
When Route 15 is restored on Girard Av in 2003, will it come out of Callowhill or will it come out of Elmwood & if Route 15 does come out of Callowhill, will Route 10 serve Callowhill as well or will it continue to serve Elmwood.
Hey, not bad, at least this wasn't a POS post, too bad by now you are on everybody's Kill File.
Anyway, I believe at first the Rt. 15 will come out of Elmwood, using the surface diversion route to get to Girard Ave. At a time in the future, IIR, Callowhill will or may be renovated to repair the PCC and K-cars of the 10 and 15. But this is SEPTA, and if you listen to the folks in the Railroad.net Septa Forum, the Rt15 is not the best idea, so if the 15 will live to see Callowhill renovated remains to be seen.
I don't think there's anything wrong with light rail on Girard. It's an important thoroughfare some distance from the Market-Frankford line, and riders will appreciate it.
I'd like to see light rail back on Erie Avenue one day. Longer term, we need the Roosevelt Blvd subway also...
I'd like to see all of the above take place. I think the City Avenue corridor needs better transit, too, but I'm not sure what.
Mark
I agree. Bus service is pretty good there, but it deserves a subway.
Time and $$$...
Given unlimited cash, what would you do with City Avenue? Where would your subway run, and what other services would it connect to?
Mark
I would offer a transfer station to the R6 Bala and/or Cynwyd stations, a station transfer connection to the Market-Frankford line, and run the train to a connection to the Broad Street Subway.
Beyond that, I don't know. Haven't given it enough thought.
up until having read about the Roosevelt Blvd subway, I'd figured one under both City Avenue and the Boulevard would be a great idea. Looking at it now, City Avenue is just fine. It'd be double-tracked, with a direct interface with the Broad Street Line at Hunting Park (Heck, maybe even have it turn back at Erie or Olney), and the line itself would run all the way down U.S. 1 to Granite Run Mall (who wouldn't love that?) Stops would be semi-frequent, at the following locations.
Hunting Park (BSL Station)
Wissahickon Avenue (under Roosevelt Expressway)
Ridge-Midvale
Presidential (turnback point)
47th Street
Bala (connectrion to R6)
54th Street (turnback point)
63rd Street (Overbrook Rail Station)
City Line Center
West Overbrook (connect to Route 100)
Lansdowne Ave.
Pilgrim Gardens
Drexeline-Scenic Road
Springfield Road
Marple Crossroads (turnback point)
Rose Tree
Granite Run Mall
The line, as originally envisioned, would have continued into what is now the proposed alignment for the Roosevelt Blvd subway. I'm not sure exactly as to what stops will be used, but I had a few of my own. However, I think they're roughly the same, just a few blocks difference. For instance, I'd have used Front Street instead of Rising Sun Avenue, and Rhawn Street instead of Holme Avenue at the Pennypack Circle. I'd also have kept the line going to City Line and Neshaminy Mall.
That's a nice idea.
One of the ideas for the Roosevelt Subway was to run it in depressed lanes on the blvd. Now I heard something on the radio and saw a TV piece about using the depressed lanes for automoblies.
Anybody else hear of this?
Chuck Greene
That was Option D, a trench railway with an expressway. However, this idea was scrapped, and a variation of Option C was selected, calling for a subway with no expressway. The expressway was deemed to be unwelcome among residents. You can read more about the various options, and the the finally selected "C-prime" option at the projects website:
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study
Mark
I like the fact that your line connects with the Route 100 and even continues west of it.
I had a wild idea once in which a line such as the one you describe would continue northeast and run along the alignment of the current R8 Fox Chase line. Not sure if there's enough demand there for real rapid transit, though.
Mark
Erie/Torresdale Avenues=Route 56
Germantown Avenue/12th/11th Streets=Route 23
Girard Avenue=Route 15
Maybe they're going in numerical order. 15, then 23, then 56. Could be.
However, Route 23 or 56 trolley service would require that Luzerne Depot be rebuilt.
BTW, they don't need to use the diversion to reach Elmwood from Girard Avenue. They don't for the 10 trolley. All they'd need to do is change it from a 15 trip to a 10 trip (remember, they plan on running the 15 to 63rd & Malvern), and change to an 11 or 36 (or Route 13 Darby Terminal trip) at 13th Street, then take the car out of service at Island Ave. That way, they get the car out, and make money at the same time.
The Germantown trolley is probably not coming back. The street is too narrow; traffic is backed up as it is.
To add insult to injury, when a rail buckled recently, SEPTA didn't restore it - they removed the buckled piece.
WHAT? Where and when did this happen? After all this time, even when they restored the bridge at Wayne Junction, they took the wires down, but put them back up when the bridge was finished! Now they remove a buckled piece of rail?
On a lighter note, the 23 can come back if the 56 can. I'd forgotten that Old York Road has the access trackage from Luzerne Depot to the 23 route. If they rehab the place, say hello to the 56 and 23 trolley... again. Seriously, if they do the 15 (which is being done as we speak), they can do the 56, and if they do that, they'll probably rehab the access track to Germantown Avenue, and then we'll see trolleys on the 23. I don't think they'd only restore one of their only three remaining surface trolley lines. I rather believe that if they'd wanted to permanently convert any of them, they'd have removed the rails and wires a long time ago. They didn't waste much time with the 6 or 50, I remember when they had trolleys on both. They uprooted the rails and downed the wires about a year after the conversion to bus. The rails and wires for the 15, 23, and 56 have been standing since 1992. Trust me, the trolleys will return...
Germantown Av is too narrow for it. Girard and Erie are wider and there are trolley stations in the street. But anything's possible...
My wife almost punctured a car tire on that trolley rail., The next morning, a couple of inches had been removed and paved over.
I'm not as confident that 'trolleys will return'. After the experience SEPTA had on Girard (and having been forced to rebuild the line by former Mayor Rendell), and given SEPTA's basic reluctance to do this, I don't see any major rail projects anytime soon. If something happened, 23 would probably get first priority, given the political push (Chestnut Hill, especially), the track conditions on the line (major sections replaced within the last 25 years), and the 'quaint' factor. Yes, G'town is a narrow street, but it's wider than Lansdowne Ave and just as wide as portions of Baltimore Ave.
56, on the other hand, has had next to no rail work (the big exceptions are the 'transitways' done in the late 80's), and just about everything on Torresdale is shot at this point.
The operating base is another consideration. Luzerne is gone, and Midvale is not conducive for trolley operation (and is not all that convenient to 56 even though it isn't that far away from 23rd & Venango as the crow flies). Using Elmwood, Callowhill, or the 'new' Callowhill would be an operating disaster given the lengthy pull-ins/pull-outs. And, by the time these lines would be in operating condition, SEPTA would probably have to buy new cars to replace the K's and equip the 23/56 (and probably replace the worn-out PCC's on 15).
My bet, and I'll bet the rent money, is that 23 and 56 will never return. I say this reluctantly, as a fan of electric traction, but the reality is otherwise.
The rebuilding of the 15...yet another great thing Rendell accomplished when he was mayor.
www.rendellforgovernor.com
Under the current scenario, 15 still ends at 63rd & Girard. There was a push (mainly by City government) to extend it via 63rd to Malvern, but SEPTA being SEPTA, it will still end at 63rd & Girard for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately it will also continue to lay over in the middle of Girard Ave in a very vulnerable spot (City government also pushed for movement of the westbound track to Girard instead of Haverford and the construction of an off-street loop on Girard east of 63rd - this would have required the purchase of an auto-body shop which SEPTA was unwilling to do).
As noted in another post, the Girard project includes a minor rehab of a couple of bays at Callowhill which will store the PCC's for 15 and about a dozen K's for 10 until a decision on the 'new' Callowhill is made. While many 10's deadhead in and out as 36's and others to avoid the long dead pull-in/pull-out (and keep in mind that these so-called 'depot' cars are actually in service, so one can ride the diversion route if one figures out when the 10's using the diversion are running!), the running time from Elmwood to 40th and Girard, where the 15's would go into service, is roughly the running time for a one-way trip on 15. Thus, operators would spend probably a quarter to a fifth of their paid time on pull-ins/pull-outs. This gets complicated by plans to replace the 40th St bridge over Amtrak in the near future, which would lengthen the 'diversion' even more.
Some plans were in the works for a new light rail storage facility in the vicinity of Belmont & Girard, but I haven't heard talk about it lately.
One little thing. When the PCC's are rebuilt by Brookville, they won't be PCC's any more. They will be be LRV's in PCC shells. Expect to see them with B2 trucks, but with LRV wheels. Only the B2 frames (or possibly B3's) will be used, no PCC control equipment.
They will look like PCC's, but there won't be that PCC sound.
I would definitely like to see what the rehabbed "PCC's" will look like. That will be intersting to see and ride, an LRV in PCC clothing.
I'm sure it will. I doubt SEPTA would spend all that money to rebuild 15 as a trolley line and then go back to buses again. They've already sent five PCC's out for rebuilding and Brookville has the contract to rebuild 18-26 PCC's.
I think it's a good idea that SEPTA chose to rebuild PCC's as opposed to purchasing new LRV's for 15. As much as I like a new LRV -Siemens's Combino is pretty nice - buying a small number of them is expensive. At least this way, when the K-cars need to be replaced in 15 years or so, SEPTA can place a large order of new LRV's for the Subway-Surface and Girard lines. I know I'm looking forward to riding the rebuilt PCC's on Girard Avenue.
Hopefully SEPTA will buy some articulated LRVs when the time comes!
Mark
I hope so too. The Subway-Surface lines are bursting at the seems. Maybe something along the lines of the Kinki-Sharyo cars used on NJT's Hudson-Bergen line or maybe Siemens's Combino. I think the Combino would be a natural for the Subway-Surface lines.
P.S. Also on the all-surface lines.
You mean the 101 and 102? If so, those would need double-end cars, the Subway-Surface use single end.
As far as articulated trolleys", doesn't Baltimore have those? They look weird. (No offense to MTA Central Light Rail Line riders, fans, and any Baltimore residents on the board.)
Baltimore has articulated LRV's.
two articulated sets coupled together
Actually, I meant 15 (definitely) and 23 and 56 (hopefully), but yes, let's include 101 and 102 as well. I think SEPTA's next purchase of LRV's should all be double-ended. You never know when you might need to reverse a trolley in an emergency.
I agree with that. However, I don't understand why the 101/102 cars use pantographs. None of the Subway-Surface cars do, and neither do the PCCs.
Look at the overhead. When routes 101/102 were redone at the time the new Kawasaki cars were delivered the overhead was rehabbed and redesigned, eliminating the troublesome trolley frogs and thereby requiring pantograph operation. Using pans also eliminates the risks associated with dewirement, which is more of an issue at the speeds attained on those routes than it would be on the subway-surface lines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The reason I heard in 1992 was to eliminate operators getting hit when changing ends in Media, the only place that terminated in the street.
I'm not sure this is the true reason, but knowing SEPTA, it just might have been.
As to dewirements at speed, all Red Arrow cars were equipped with retrievers rather than catchers. A dewirement at speed with a retriever the pole is pulled down very quickly. Reseting a pole when using a retriever can be somewhat dangerous, as attempting to pull the rope out can sometimes have the retriever pull it (and your arm) back in. The rope had to be pulled out slowly and carefully to prevent any backlash.
Not a problem in the pre-auto world, but rather hadzardous when changing poles with careless drivers wizzing by.
What I'd like to know is why the Subway-Surface LRV's and PCC's don't use pantographs. Trolley poles seem to be more prone to dewiring. When I rode on a Route 23 fantrip five years ago, the PCC kept dewiring, at least three times. I hope that doesn't happen when the rehabbed PCC's return to Girard Avenue.
The reason the City Division don't use pantographs on their cars is that the curves are too tight (on the street, and in the subway) to make the use of pantographs pratical. Also some of the switching and signal systems cannot accomondate pantographs. On the suburban division, the curves tend to be somewhat wide and sweeping (like on the 102 at Springfield Rd), and that makes pantograph more pratical
Ah, that does make sense. I suppose the area where 15 wraps around the old Girard College is one of those tight curve areas, so I suppose the rehabbed PCCs will still have trolley poles. I guess the curves on Boston's Green Line are more forgiving than SEPTA's are, because Boston's LRVs use pantographs.
Boston and Baltimore both. I typically associate pantographs with railroads. Amtrak, SEPTA Regional Rail, NJT commuter rail, MBTA, MARC... I wonder which of NY's two railroads uses what kind of power: Diesel or Electric. I only know of the third rail pick-up near Penn Station/Grand Central Terminal
Back to the 15, though. I wonder if they'll still run it 24 hours once the trolleys arrive. I also wonder if pantographs would be possible on the 56.
I'd like to see some aticulated LRVs like the ones in Toronto, stictly from a railfan point of view, but I think it's more important to have something that has low-floors or is otherwise handicapped-accessible, in practical terms. NJT's Kinki-Sharyo's fit that description, don't they?
Mark
Yes, they do. So do Siemens's Combino and Alstom's Citadis. All would be right at home on Philly's trolley lines.
Just got back online after three days off and I want to tell you I hope you sent that jingle to the rest of the rail fans. It was a real gas. I laughed my sides sore. Of course, not all Chinese restaurants do that, probably not many any more, but is was real good for a laugh. I hope those railfannners of Chinese descent did not take it too seriously. We all can use a laugh at our expense sometimes. I'm always on the lookout for Italian jokes myself.
Glad you enjoyed... I sent it to a few selected ones who I felt would appreciate it... just looked at the list and realized I forgot to send it to Selkirk so will do so now, he'll get a laugh if he hasn't already seen it.
And if anyone's curious about it, email me direct, I'll not post the link here but I'll be glad to share offline.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Chinese Lantern," Rte 9 Poughkeepsie. :)
57th/6th and Lex/63rd (and presumably others) already have the new platform signs up for the Sept. 8th service change:
To Avenue X, Brooklyn
via 6 Av Local
For Coney Is, take (W) at 34 St
I think one of the signs near the north end of the platform at 57/6 had "Culver Local" in place of "6 Av Local", but I was reading this from an accelerating train - didn't have time to double-check. :)
New W signs at Pacific as well.
New Q local signs along the Brighton.
Also at Queensboro Plaza lower level.
They're up all over on the F.
The 2 line along White Plains Road also has new platform signs as well. They look just like the pre-9/11 signs.
(2) via 7 Av Express
Late nights
all local stops
Confirmed. These signs are also up along the Nostrand Ave part of the line as well.
So are we going to see the 2 going back to express and the 3 going back to Brooklyn a week early, or is it still going to be Sept. 15? Last Saturday, the 31st, I saw two TA workers putting on the new signs and one of them said, "Next week."
9-15 is when everything return to normal operation. Right now, the #1 trains that terminates at Chambers are sent through the loop as test trains. From what Im hearing alot of crews are feeling weird after not being down there for almost a year.
PS: I see the downtown side at Fulton have the 3 train platform signs up. At 14St downtown local track, there is a platform revealing the old 1/9 to South Ferry all times. By next week, most of the signs should be up.
11 more days to go................
At 14St downtown local track, there is a platform revealing the old 1/9 to South Ferry all times.
I don't think that sign was ever covered up to begin with. I saw it about a month ago.
What they have done is bolt a new sign over the old sign. Notice the bolts. Permanent signs have no bolts except where the bracket to the ceiling is located. They did the same at DeKalb and F stations.
When trhe service changes back the remove the bolted on overlay and the sign is changed. Another way to tell- the overlays are of different gloss levels -ie non-gloss, matte finish vs the glossy portion where it shows F ro 1, etc.
Before any one asks- This can be seen from the platform. I did not and remind others that climbing the signs is not a safe practice. Look at a station with no changes and then look at one with recent temporary changes.good example- W 4 on the Upper level Express track Northbound) vs Southbound DeKalb .
9-15 is when everything return to normal operation. Right now, the #1 trains that terminates at Chambers are sent through the loop as test trains. From what Im hearing alot of crews are feeling weird after not being down there for almost a year.
PS: I see the downtown side at Fulton have the 3 train platform signs up. At 14St downtown local track, there is a platform sign revealing the old 1/9 to South Ferry all times. By next week, most of the signs should be up.
11 more days to go................
I wonder how many people here are willing including David P. to created a super L.I.R.R Section, with a history, a complete Station to Station Section, possibly track maps and yard maps, abandoned stations, and sections. I say some of us should get together, make a plan v.i.a. e-mails then set out each of us for a line by line detailed, With pictures from the platforms, we can give great photos, and give people who've never ridden or will ride the Long Island Railroad something to look at.
ok... ill get babylon/montauk
Much of that material is available on various LIRR web sites.
There's no need for that --- go check out Sub-talker Bob Andersen's site
www.lirrhistory.com.
thene e-mail him ---- maybe he'd be willing to expand his site with anything you have that he doesn't already display.
I like the idea. I have already done a Port Washington Line page for Forgotten NY and I'd like to se one for every line in nycsubway.org.
It should be mentioned that Bob Andersen does a stellar job chronicling the LIRR on lirrhistory.com.
www.forgotten-ny.com
They have constructed a new double-track bridge to cross over the BQE. Why would they spend soooo much money on a new alignment and build a double-track bridge for a frieght line that is lightly used. Is something planned to head over Hellgate Bridge to/from Queens? All through the years there was only one track and honestly, I've only seen one train go by their in my life...a Conrail maybe 10-15 years ago. I'm sure many more pass but I have only seen the one. I can see it all the time when riding the #7 WB just before 69th Street.
That's part of the Bay Ridge line for the NY&A. All new NYCT "subway coaches" goes by there to Fresh Pond.
I notice along the BQE that hill and the one by the LIE and BQE interchange are in the process of being removed.
I figured that. But why renovate it to make it look like a new line or something? Unless the NY&A wanted a new double track line for whatever reason.
Probably was part of the deal to get the realignment necessary to do the BQE work. That part of the BQE was in desparate need of reconstruction, expecially the split to LGA/Triboro.
Actually train traffic over the line, known as the CSX Fremont Industrial, has increased, with CSX local Y-101 running the line daily, along with CP Train 274/275, which delivers fresh R-142s and M-7s onto the MTA property coming Monday thru Friday as needed, and Providence & Worcester's April-October
"Stone Train", which hauls stone loads, primarily ballast loads for MTA, and fresh stone for Prima Asphalt in Holtsville, L.I., and comes about 3 or 4 times a week. Y-101 can been seen northbound over the line between 10:30am - 2pm, though sometimes it can leave the Pond later. CP 274 arrives at the Pond around 4am normally, but the last few weeks its been coming at 4pm, delivering fresh new M-7s for LIRR and R-142s for NYCT. CP 275 leaves the Pond normally at 4:45pm, but leaves usually the next day or late the same night if it arrives during the afternoon. The Stone Train comes mainly around 1am, and usually is hauling up to 110 stone loads, some of which are LIRR ballast hoppers with fresh ballast for LIRR Track Dept.
The new bridge is double track designed because the majority of the right of way is designed for two tracks, and not to mention if the city and state ever decide to go ahead with a New York Bay rail freight tunnel from Greenville, NJ to Bay Ridge, this line could have the possibility to become a much busier North-South freight artery for CSX, and even for CP who has been given operating and management rights to the Bay Ridge-65th freight yards. The freight increase that could come with the opening of this tunnel, which the city and state are pushing for, could warrant the second track to be built. Although for this to happen the line is in need of some serious repairs, because much of it is heavily neglected, especially Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge, and is in need of a whole new signal system to accomodate any traffic increases this tunnel could provide if built.
Actually train traffic over the line, known as the CSX Fremont Industrial, has increased, with CSX local Y-101 running the line daily, along with CP Train 274/275, which delivers fresh R-142s and M-7s onto the MTA property coming Monday thru Friday as needed, and Providence & Worcester's April-October
"Stone Train", which hauls stone loads, primarily ballast loads for MTA, and fresh stone for Prima Asphalt in Holtsville, L.I., and comes about 3 or 4 times a week.
I was very pleased to see new hopper cars at Prima last Friday when I was heading to Medford. The cars they'd been using were graffitied absolutely beyond belief. Of course, the new ones will probably be defaced soon enough.
I few questiong about the Sept. March OF Dimes Steeplecab triplex fantrip. Is the steeplecab diesel? Also, what is the entire trip itinerary?
I have been trying to find that out myself
It's this huge guy :)
As for the routes, you'll know soon. BMTman and I are going to Branford during the week, maybe we can get the itinerary out of the guy running the trip, assuming we see him....
-Stef
>>Is the steeplecab diesel?<<
No, it runs on 600 volts. 100% electric.
Bill "Newkirk"
I went out today with a friend from Chicago to railfan BOS area commuter rail lines. it being a holiday weekend, there were no trains, and no freights, which made it very boring. We walked from my house via the Mass Ave Trolley Yard to West Medford where we snapped pics of the Downeaster running with two Genesises, also the commuter train which ran AHEAD of it result in the Downeaster running at restricted speeds. It also meant that we missed the train we hoped to get downtown on, so we had to take a boose. Then I had to go run some errands but we saw #449 leave BOS Union Sta. Tomorrow we will go to Ayer to check out the intermodal yard, if anyone wants to come give us a yell. I'll check this board before I leave at around 11am tomorrow.
AEM7
The time is Labor Day Monday, meet 11.50am at Porter Sq Sta. on the Commuter Rail level by the Citizens Bank machine. We're going to Ayer to check out the freight yard. Anyone want to come should follow-up the message to this board so we know you're coming. I'm a short Chinese person in my 20s and I'll be with a tall thin bald white person in his 40s.
AEM7
Count me in Ill be there Im 6'1 short hair and glases.
Thats accross form the collectors booth correct? Stevie
Yes, that's across from the collectors booth. We may not go to Ayer today, might go somewhere else instead -- it's rainy out, and the Ayer Yard could be difficult to access in the rain. Given that you're coming though, I'm inclined to override John (the other person coming) and say that the yard would be fun despite the rain.
We might be slightly late -- my Chicago friend called and told me to get on the 11.15 inbound. But we'll come back out on the transit and come to fetch you at 11.50. See you at 11.50.
AEM7
AEM7 SORRY I got caught up at work my relief never showed up sorry. Click on my name and Emai me . Stevie
heh, it's OK. It rained we decided not to go to Ayer. We waited for you until the Fitchburg train left and figured that if you showed up after the train left, the trip would be off anyways.
My friend dragged me to Plymouth. We did a out and back trip. He's still out there riding the Franklin/495 shuttle but I'd had enough for the day. heh.
AEM7
I have been mostly off the internet for the past four weeks due to illness, and also massive computer failure. I was here part of the time, but was unable to post, send or receive email.
I would appreciate it if anyone might have emailed me during the last month, and didn't get a response, to please resend. I evidently did not get your message because my Outlook Express was crashing and wiping out everything before I could read it.
My computer just returned from iMac Hospital yesterday, and some semblance of operation seems to have been restored.
Karl, glad you're back... hope you're feeling better. Did they upgrade your iMac to OS X while it was in intensive care?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hopefully, they replaced the buggy ROM on the early iMacs with a later version. heh.
We have one of the first iMacs, produced four years ago. It was originally OS 8.0. It has been upgraded over the years to OS 9.1.
It is technically my wife's, and they tell her that it can't be upgraded to OS X.
I wonder if they are trying to sell her a new unit.
OS X is very different to OS 9.1. Unless you have a specific reason to go to OSX, there is no reason to change. Because of the differences in design, it is possible that OSX will not support some of the older Apple CPUs. Check Apple's website, it will tell you what kind of CPU is supported by OSX. Each type of CPU and each type of architecture needs a different "kernel", and the appropriate OSX kernel may not have been made available. However, I am surprised by what you said given that iMac is comparatively recent. I would find their story more believable if we were talking about a first-generation PowerPC (e.g. PowerPC 6100, 7200 etc). I'm guessing, but G3 upwards should be OSX compatible.
AEM7
My wife and I are both computer ignorant, and have been relying on our nephew for tech help. He seems to be a computer whiz, and was the one who recommended we get this four years ago. He got an OS X some time back, and told us when he upgraded us to 9.1, that we couldn't go to X.
The Apple dealer telling us the same thing last week just seemed to confirm it.
We were very impressed with our nephew's new unit, because he didn't even seem to have that fan noise, which does get to be annoying at times.
I'm not sure if you couldn't install OSX on that old iMac, but I wouldn't. I've seen someone run it on one of the older iMacs, and IMHO the slowness is unaccceptable.
Arti
Get a new computer and throw that junk away. Get Dell, its the best and cheaper.
Heretic! As a practitioner of the one true computer faith and proud owner of six Macs, I encourage Karl to stay faithful to the best. I'm stuck with Micros**t Windoze and all its problems at the office and I probably wouldn't spend any time on this board if I had to deal with all those headaches at home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Karl "B"
We wondered what happened to you at "My Place" for the past few weeks - as you hand'nt posted and we have been very busy with lots of posters who rode things like the NYW&B and transit things around in the 30's and 40's NY City. Plus some great photos posted. Big Ed D has been a daily regular there too
Of course, if you log back on you can look that stuff up---contact me by private email if you need to "bookmark" our NYCTMG Forum so you can jump back into it. You are still a member on our boards.
We even had Karl "M" and Karl "A" (aka Corky) posting --so we missed the Karl "B".
Like some one else posted --get rid of that "'49 Nash smokemobile" computer and upgrade to something new - and DELL is a great brand.
If you can get back to our group, log in and say hello - or I will email you the link to click on to to get back in and bookmark it in a file on your end. You got a lot of interesting stuff to catch up on there.
regards - Joe
Joseph Frank
Webmaster - NYC Transit Modelers Group
BMT El Gate motor # 620 heads a BMT El Local train into Local station on a Brooklyn El
I got to see the new MTH add-on sets for both the R-17 and R-21 subway sets at my dealer yesterday. They apparently just came out this week, and I got to see them up close.
The R-17's are numbered 6500 & 6899. The R-21's are numbered 7050 & 7299.
I met the set's buyer who told me that he understood that these add-on sets are going to be very scarce, because many buyers who got the add-on sets, only bought them, and not the original four car sets. He feels that this will make the add-on sets very scarce.
Is anyone else aware of this possible problem?
Glad you made it back, Karl.... The first R-21 Add-ons made it to E-bay. I didn't see what the final price was but from the early bidding you'd think they were painted by Rembrandt.
Hi, Karl. I don't know about the future collectibility of the add-on sets. BUT, I can tell you that the add-ons will be snapped up by transit buffs far and wide considering that many will probably purchase them to be used solely as display models. I know a number of guys who are going to do just that.
The folks who already have the four-cars sets MIGHT go and get the add-ons if only to make an authentic 10-car train. However, they don't have as much as an incentive since they got the more valuable powered unit sets in the first go-round from MTH. It certainly will be interesting to see who the add-ons will appeal to once the 'dust settles'.
The big item I'm waiting for is the Corgi Classics release of the GMC NYCTA 'New Look' bus in the familiar light blue/dark blue scheme of the mid 70's early 80's. I have two on order at model RR dealer.
If you had to rate how cool or uncool each type of vandalism is, how would you rate them comparative to one another? The scale is from -3 to 3, with -3 being really uncool, really stupid, and perpetrator should be jailed, and with 3 being really cool, and that the vandal is really doing a public service by breaking up a monotone and bringing a little variety to life. 0 would be neutral, with the vandalism not detracting nor adding to the railroad. For instance, here's a set of commonly seen vandalisms, with my rating of how cool or uncool I thought they were:
-3 Stack up stuff on the ROW in an attempt to derail trains
-3 Hurl objects at moving trains
-3 Mess with switches to try to derail trains
-2 Put coins on rails to try to make flat pennies
-2 Cut up seats on trains
-2 Paintball moving trains
-2 Burn back of seats on trains with a lighter
-2 Racist tags
-1 Scratchitti
-1 Stylized signature (tags) with marker pens on trains
-1 Tags with spray paint can on new passenger rolling stock or motive power
0 "Mike woz here" type tags with names and dates
1 Footprints in paving, done properly (so that it looks as if it has been endorsed rather than just random).
1 Detailed rendering of a specific logo (beyond just a "tag")
1 "Helen loves Andy forever" type tags
1 Humorous tags, such as "Are we there yet?"
1 Detailed drawings (non-obscene) done with marker pen
2 Colorful lettering or mural with spray paint cans on old freight cars
2 Tags with a message that provokes thought
2 Love poems or other poems/songs written with a marker
2 Lipstick kisses on random parts of station or trains
2 Paint handprint with corresponding endorsement (e.g. name date and location) on say an old freight car or a derelict building
3 Large scale beautiful murals that depict a particular message (you see these rarely, but there are some).
Any more to add? Any comments?
AEM7
2 Switching rollsigns for fun
2 Kicking in vents
3 Kicking in cab doors
6 Tagging the personal property of vandals
6 Tagging the personal property of vandals
That's kind of hard, although I would be very amused to see a newspaper report that had that kind of story -- you know, imagines the subheadline: "VANDAL TAGGED BY SWIFTER VANDALS"... "Albany N.Y. -- Today a known vandal got a taste of his own medicine when a rival gang of vandals spotted him vandalizing a toilet in a downtown bar. Taking advantage of his drunken stuptor, they held him down to the floor and wrote all over his body with a permanent marker... The police were called to the disturbance but no one was arrested since the tagging of body parts was apparently not a crime under New York State law, and there was allegedly no actual bodily harm..."
Reminds me of some vandalism I've seen recently. Apparently college vandalism is a little humorous, especially at the right college (Carnegie Mellon).
One is of the common "In case of fire, do not use elevator" sign. Someone scribbled in "use water, duh!". On another one of those signs on a different floor, someone crossed out the word 'fire' and wrote in 'hurry', since the elevators are really damn slow.
I agree, not all vandalism is bad or for the sole purpose of defacing property, some of it is good comic relief to what could otherwise be a lousy day.
Or, one seen in a street railway loop restroom: "Do NOT throw cigarette butts in toilet". Added remark: "It makes them soggy and hard to light".
Ok, this one for the us Sea Beach folks...
If any one wants to write to me and tell step by step how to link, I would be most appreciative. Better yet, there must be a way to just upload the picture into this message...that would be better for me, then I don't have to resize or bring down the resolution...
I actually have a lot of pics to share, so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks & enjoy
Jonathan
http://members.aol.com/jsyee53/myhomepage/r32%203570%20sky%20for%20subtalk.jpg
Regardless of how you choo-choo-choose (ON-TOPIC!) to put up your photos, they're going to have to be on a webserver somewhere.
LINKING:
<A HREF="url">Text</A>
replace url with the address (keep the quotes) and text with the text of the link.
EMBEDDING:
This way the photo will be inside the page itself:
<IMG SRC="url">
Ok let me try.
Your test failed. I really enjoy the red X.
lol........for some reason I cannot embed photos here. Maybe Im doing something wrong.
YOU SUCCEEDED!
But you put in the URL not to the picture, but to the webpage that the picture is on. You should go to that page, and select the VIEW FULL SIZE link underneath the pic. Then use the URL to that.
Try again. Just type [IMG SRC="link"] and replace the word link with the actual link (keeping the quotes), and change the [ ] to < >
For some reason I can see it in the preview but when I Post the message thats when it goes away. The red x shows up
You put a space between SRC and =, but the big problem is that I think webshots doesn't support remote loading of images (posting images on other websites) I copied the URL from the image properties and pasted it to the address bar and it navigated to the page successfully.
When I went back, the picture was there since it was already in my browser cache.
Hmmmmmm. I think Im gonna try putting the photo somewhere else and see what happens. You are being a great help and I thank you for that
Bingo!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you recall where the shot was taken?
like this ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, you got it right!!
Nice pic, though it's hard to see what station it see. Any idea what? I'm assuming you were on an island platform.
If it's one of the stations that the N went on, it's gotta be Stillwell. It has no ceiling over the platform.
...fair is fair:
Several posters, including myself, have occasionally flipped off about how silly the MTA was to have purchased the R38's from St. Louis Car Co, instead of simply copying the R32 order, from Budd. After all, as previously discussed, the 38's may indeed be retired before the 32's, due to their physical shape.
However, just out of curiousity, I checked out the site today, fully expecting to see the R32's with a much higher MDBF rating. I was quite surprised to find the opposite results, which are pasted below.
R32 MDBF
Date Mean Distance
Between Failure (Miles)
05/1994 45385
06/1997 66411
07/1997 61151
12 Months Ending 07/1997 81942
12 Months Ending 11/1999 69578
12 Months Ending 12/2001 104188
R38 MDBF
Date Mean Distance
Between Failure (Miles)
05/1994 67271
06/1997 80009
07/1997 57476
12 Months Ending 07/1997 93758
12 Months Ending 11/1999 70653
12 Months Ending 12/2001 122033
Only once in the last eight years have the R32's been documented to perform more reliably than the R38's. Even then, the difference was smaller than in quite a few of the other years, when the R38's did much better.
Does the above at least mitigate the difference in the physical quality of the cars themselves, in terms of which class is more valuable to the system? Am I missing something?
MDBF is a good but not perfect measurement of mechanical reliability. It is the total miles travelled in a given time period divded by the number of mechanical failures in the same period. Since the miles are probably estimated based on estimated scheduled car miles (NYCTA cars do not have hubometers), MDBF is not 100% accurate. Normally, the brake, door, and propulsion systems cause the greatest number of mechanical failures on MU electric cars. The car body condition is not a major contributor to mechanical failure. Keep in mind that since the R38 carbodies are not all stainless steel, the bodies are probably suffering more metal fatigue than a 100% stainless steel carbody like the R32s. Just look at the corrosion spots on the R38 roofs and you'll see what I mean.
Thanks - I understand everything you said. Yes, all the R38 roofs I've seen were either terribly rusted, or painted over. I was just expressing my surprise that they appeared to have better mechanical records based on the numbers I pasted. I realize that the physcial state of the carbody is separate fromt the mechanical state of the car. However, I did not expect to find any data in the R38's favor.
I also did not realize that the miles were not measured exactly.
"Keep in mind that since the R38 carbodies are not all stainless steel, the bodies are probably suffering more metal fatigue than a 100% stainless steel carbody like the R32s."
Just to clarify, a given unit of commercially used stainless steel (such as 304, 304L, 316, 316L) is weaker than a given unit of carbon steel. In other words, to span a given distance, a beam of stainless must be more substantial than regular carbon steel beam. Stainless steel is also less structurally sound in other aspects. Stainless has a significantly higher coefficient of thermal expansion than carbon steel (0.000116 in./ft.*F deg versus 0.0000842 in./ft.*F deg, respectively), meaning that for a given temperature change, stainless steel is going to expand and contract a greater distance. Cyclic thermal expansion and contraction are a major cause of metal failure.
"Just look at the corrosion spots on the R38 roofs and you'll see what I mean."
You are completely correct here. Stainless has the benefit of corrosion resistance. Corrosion is probably the most significant cause of metal failure.
So you see, it is a tradeoff. You must balance structural strength, thermal movement, and cost (a unit mass of stainless is roughly three times as expensive as carbon steel) with corrosion resistance.
Matt
That's unfortunate. A stainless steel bridge would be quite a sight!
And quite expensive to build!
Well, even with high MDBFs, if a car is about to fall apart due to rust then it simply can't be kept in service.
I dont know much about NYCTA but do I remember right that there was something Train Dude said about R-38's having been through a GOH and had their braking systems rebuilt and are now one of the most reliable?
Where did you find these MDBF information -- on this site? Where?
A car may be more expensive to maintain than a cheaper to maintain car with a lower MDBF, so that the maintenance cost per MDBF might be lower in the cheaper-to-maintain car. It's like comparing a combat jet to a cargo jet -- the combat jet will almost always work, but it's really maintenance intensive, while the cargo jet will sometimes be out of service, but it's much more cost effective.
And anyway, a veh failure in an entire set really doesn't matter that much, because the other cars will drag it along. A few percentage difference in veh MDBF probably doesn't make much difference -- by the time the set hits the shops, both sets probably have run similar mileage, just with the R-32 car failing (statistically) slightly earlier.
I'm still confused about the whole veh MDBF versus trainset MDBF thing. Does some one want to explain that again? I went through this one time (see archives) and only had Stephen Bauman tell me I am wrong without really explaining why.
AEM7
The MDBF ratings were from this site, on the respective R32 and R38 pages. Good points.
What we may be missing is factoring in the size of the fleets.
The R32 fleet is 3 times the size of R38 fleet - 600 cars vs. 200 cars - so the chances of something going wrong on the significantly larger R32 fleet are greater.
True enough.
two other questions are all R38's at one shop? and is there an mdbf differential between R32's as to which GOH group?
I think the R38s are at both Pitkin and 207th.
If you've read these following Service Advisories and rode A D and E line today or yesterday, you can see the difference
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/35_ese.pdf
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnd.htm
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnc.htm
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvna.htm
Apparently, the E runs between 2nd Ave and Queens Plaza, Not West 4. Local Service on the 8Ave was beyond southbound West 4 was replaced by D (which terminate at WTC E platform not chamber street A platform). C service on both directions is suspended entirely and was replaced by A to Queens.
I rode it and seen it. :)
>>>>replaced by A to Queens<<<<
replaced by A to/from Queens
So what ran local on CPW -- the A, the D, or both?
i think its obvious that both the A and D ran local on CPW since the track after 59th needed to be worked on plus the section around 86th st on the downtown express track.
No, it's not obvious. Neither work area is on the NB express track, and I don't know if work was going on that weekend on the SB express track either.
Hello Dave; This photo IS NOT ON 3rd Ave. El at Gun Hill Road Station !!
ACTUAL LOCATION DATA:
This photo was taken in 1964 looking north from the south end of the easterly (or northbound) local track of the Van Cortlandt Park - 242nd street terminal of the # 1 Broadway El Line. The station has 2 tracks, and one island platform and two outside platforms. Last RUN of IRT Low-V Subway cars on mainline IRT (except for 3rd ave El. only til Nov. 1969)
The photo is looking north under the then fairly recently newly built overhead crew room and tower which spans both tracks and 3 platforms at their south end. To the right of generally unused right platform would be Van Cortland Park, Bronx.
BTW - I rode that train with that sign !!
Hope the above is of use Dave ---and do remove it from the 3rd Ave EL "Gun Hill Road Station" segment.
As time permits, I will check other photos for you and offer corrections when I can
Best regards - as always, Joe
Joseph Frank
Webmaster - NYC Transit Modelers Group Forum
Co-Founder - NYC Model Transit Association
Ah, you've returned Joe.
The pain of the '60s. The decade started with the end of the SIRT cars and the Multis, rolled right along with the mainline Lo-Vs and the Triplexes. by the moon landing or so we lost the rest of the Standards, the 3rd Avenue L Lo-Vs and the Qs.
Redbird City.
NICE Catch, Joe!!
Is there any webpages with the history of Boston suburban trains with photos?
Thank you.
The only one that comes to mind is NETansit@Aol.Comm
Also you can try searching under Boston & Maine Railroad
,Boston & Albany railroad,NERHS, or Boston St Ry Assn (BSRA). Stevie
I boarded an uptown #3 express yesterday at the 14th Street/Broadway terminal (on the downtown local track). When the interlocking signal cleared for the train to leave the terminal, it showed Green over Yellow (as expected) with an illuminated "3" under the Green. Does this mean the obvious -- "3 train"? If so, is there any other interlocking signal that displays its line name?
I think it might mean the track number...I can't verify this (uptown express track being 3 Track).
That would make sense too... if that's the case, I wonder if there are any other such illuminated signals which explicitly state the track number to which the interlocking is set.
There is one at 168 on the IND -uptown "express track" showing track number .(Express is in quotes because the expresss is on what is normally considewred the local track.
I know of two other locations, but they are both inside Yard limits - one at 240 yard and the other at Livonia. the Home signals at the yard heads illuminate the track number that is lined-up.
Main Street.
Just was wondering how long will this ride be? I went on the Nostalgia Train on the 25th of August and I have to say it wasn't long at all. I got my tickets for the Steeple last week and cant wait for this one. I here that there will be many great photo opptions.
That trip was run by the TA Museum, this trip run by the guys from SubDivision C will be MUCH MUCH longer. Think of it we will be visiting East NY and CI Yards, the trip between the two should take an hour or two just to start off not counting the time in the yards.
I do not think you will be disapointed.
I was on the last MOD trip 8/26/01. It started out at 10:30 AM at Chambers St. (J) --went to Metropolitan Ave and return. Then out to SBK yards for photos, and lunch/bathroom break at Costco. Returned to Fulton Street at 6;30. Didn't get back to Chambers because of bad motor.
Therefore the trip was about 8 hours. Be prepared for a long day.
As long as we are going to see alot places, then I will be prepared for a long great day.
Someone said that starting 9/1 trains would go back to South Ferry with no passengers south of Chambers, and that the 3 would go back to New Lots. Since nobody's talking about this, I'm assuming it didn't happen, but I just thought I'd make sure.
The changes on the 1/9, 2, and 3 take place on 9/15 as far passengers are concerned.
Until then, when the new tracks are opened, #1 trains will loop at South Ferry during times that they don't go to Brooklyn.
I thought that TA was going to rebuild or remove the loop at South Ferry. Are they or not?
The current work (FEMA-financed) is to repair the 9/11 damage. South Ferry wasn't damaged, it's just been out of use because it was inaccessible. The plan to replace it with a terminal station is for later.
It's scheduled for September 15th.
I'm back home in England after my vacation in Colorado, and wanted to share a couple of things with the list.
The best railfan window view in the world has to be the Pikes Peak Cog Railway! I had the good luck to get reservations near the front of the train for the downhill trip, and the views are amazing.
And the Cumbres and Toltec took my breath away -- it has to be the finest preserved steam railway anywhere. I went on the Durango and Silverton too, and enjoyed it, but it has a more "commercial" feel about it. The C&T had a much higher % of railfans, and smaller % of tourists, among the passengers. I know it's a long way from New York, but do make every effort to ride both the C&T and the D&S.
I also covered the Georgetown Loop, and the Denver LRT in its entirety. Not the Royal Gorge, though (had to leave something for another time!)
Fytton.
Ah yes, Pike's Peak is absolutely amazing, even if it uses modern equipment, unlike Mount Washington.
Thanks for sharing.
Not to seem tit-for-tat, but my wife and I have toured Britain by car, and so much of the countryside is amazingly beautiful, even including those whitish dots we see everywhere, chewing up the scenery. :)
I agree that the UK is surprisingly beautiful too (given its dense population), but we can't produce any 14,000-foot mountains.
There is good railfanning for steam and/or narrow-gauge enthusiasts - the steam cog railway on Snowdon (very expensive, though) and the other narrow-gauge lines in North Wales (Talyllyn, Festiniog, Vale of Rheidol and Welshpool & Llanfair) in particular. So don't travel only by car (8-) !
I rode some of those--also beautiful. One of the great problems of many American museum=tourist operations is that they have great equipment on boring runs. I love the ride through the woods on the Branford operation, but the museum ride up at Kennebunkport was insufferable, Not only was the run boring, but when we changed ends at the end of the run, the motorman gave a long boring speech about the museum to a captive audience.
You didn't mention Great Orme--now there's something you can't do in the U.S.!
... when we changed ends at the end of the run, the motorman gave a long boring speech about the museum to a captive audience.
I'd venture to guess that could be a problem anywhere. I don't know what Seashore's protocol is, not being a member there and having just visited last year for the first time in over a quarter century, but I can say that the speech I got was quite interesting. At Branford we have some general guidelines but it's up to the operator to tell the story in an interesting way, both at the end of the line and on the car barn tour. Each one does it differently, and some may make it more interesting than others. I tailor my speech to the audience that I have for a particular trip; one comprised mainly of families with small children will get a different tour than a charter trip of senior citizens, and a trip with just a couple of railfans will be handled differently yet. And then there are the very special cases, like my favorite trip so far this year. On that trip my only passengers were a very spry woman in her eighties and her great-grandson; the great-grandson, about 10-12 years old, knew quite a bit about the history of streetcars but had never ridden one, while the grandmother had escaped the Sudetenland just before World War II and had ridden the Third Avenue cars in New York during their last years of service. Although I did impart something of the history of streetcars in general and our museum in particular, I spent much of that hour-plus tour (it was a slow day so I had more time than usual) listening to her and learning what it was like to be growing up in a world in turmoil, and what it meant to come to America as a newlywed (she and her husband, of blessed memory, were married in mid-Atlantic and had a heck of a time with immigration officials as a result) and live in freedom.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
but when we changed ends at the end of the run, the
motorman gave a long boring speech about the museum to a captive audience.
That seems to be a problem at every streetcar museum. We to do try to keep it to a minimum at BSM. Occaisionaly we do have somebody on the front end that falls in love with their own voice, so the Dispatcher will "rattle the cage". Every visitor gets our Visitor's Guide when they pay their admission, and that gives them a capsule of the info about the museum as well as info about the cars, so the short speech will be interesting tidbits about the car the visitors are riding.
Apparently, what we do seems to be working, for most visitors ride every car we are operating, plus look at the exhibits and view the 10 minute professionaly produced video.
Bear in mind that we are all humans *, and every once in a while we all screw up.
* we are assuming that SubTalk is not being viewed by Vulcans :)
* we are assuming that SubTalk is not being viewed by Vulcans :)
I wouldn't be so sure... some days I'm convinced that half the posters here are alien life forms :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Could be, but their not Vulcans. No logic to the posts.
And there's good stuff in England too!!!
The Severn Valley Railway is both a nice and a rather quick way of getting to Bridgnorth. (For those who don't know the area, you change from BR at Kidderminster (trains from both Birmingham Stations and both Worcester Stations) to SVR at Kidderminster Town next door).
As many of us know the NJT Montclair connection opens on 9/30. Included is extension of catenary through Montclair.
Some questions, since I am not a New Jersey resident:
(1) Does the new wire end at Great Notch or Little Falls?
(2) What type of consists - MUs or electric locos/coaches - will be used for Montclair trains?
(3) With the abadonment of the three inner Boonton line stations east of Montclair also scheduled, will those tracks be abandoned or will NS/CSX continue to use them?
(4) What type of substitute service is NJT planning for the 3 inner Boonton stations?
Thank you in advance to all who take the time to answer.
1. I believe the wire ends at Great Notch. Electric service will terminate at Montclair Heights, though. Eventually a station will be built at Montclair State to serve as the electric terminal and transfer to diesel service.
2. Not sure.
3. Not clear at this time.
4. They are running shuttle busses to other nearby stations.
There is a long series of threads which are an interesting read at www.railroad.net -- go to the New Jersey Railfan forum.
CG
As far as question # 1, all I can say is that Great Notch Yard will be a new sign up location for crews starting on September 30th. I don't know where the yard is in relation to the station.
Regarding question # 2, anything going to or coming from New York will have to be ALP engines with push-pull coaches because MU's cannot handle the change in voltage between the Northeast Corridor and the Morris & Essex line.
Does anyone know if the 3 Line will be by-passing any stops due to overcrowding on Eastern Pkwy? Because I was on the 3 Line last year and it was by-passing certain stops, but luckily it wasn't mines.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
If I'm not mistaken, decisions to close stations to disperse crowds are made on-the-fly by the NYPD.
David
The 3 Line does not go in to Brooklyn. This has been the norm since September 11th, 2001. It is scheduled to return to Brooklyn in the near future.
I think he meant the 1 train.
Thats what I meant, my fault.
Yesterday I worked the Beast aka the 2 line. We was ordered to bypass Eastern Pkwy-Bklyn Museum in both directions until 6pm. Also the 4s were supposed to be local in Bklyn although all the ones I seen were express. Boy did I get it on my first trip out of Flatbush. Especially at Church Ave. But those are my fellow Caribbeans so I cant complain at all.....
Well my friend, at least you kept dryer then they did :-(
Many who planed a cookout may have gone shopping or RailFanning ?
I apologize if this may have been discussed prior to my getting a computer. And I should have asked during the 2 times that we got together. But, aside from the "sentimental" aspects, what is the thrill of the Sea Beach Line? I'm talking the actual "Sea Beach" segment, once it veers off of 4th Avenue and goes down toward Coney Island (or currently 86th Street).
From the railfan standpoint, you don't see much. For the most part, you're in a "cut", all the neighborhood views are above and out of sight. There are no interesting interlockings, it's basically 4 tracks all the way down, with hardly any switches until you get to 86th street. Plus, there's no provision for express service that would actually serve Sea Beach customers. Due to its configuration, any express (the old NX) would bypass the whole Sea Beach segment completely! And as others mentioned in previous posts, the line is neglected cosmetically as well.
Lines like the Brighton Line have variety and speed. There is the cut, the ROW between the houses, and the elevated segment. There is both local and express service on weekdays. The "J" line is another interesting ride. The Manhattan segment, though old and dilapidated, has its interesting moments. And from the Williamsburgh Bridge on, you can see the world. You can even see in to peoples' bedroom windows, but that's another story... And the track configuration by Myrtle Ave is priceless. Watching a Queens bound "M" leave the local track and go across everything to get to the Myrtle Ave line practically brings tears of joy to my eyes. To me, there's nothing like that on the Sea Beach.
But, Fred, that's just me. You're entitled to your opinion. There's no offense or disrespect intended, I'm just curious to know what attracts you to the Sea Beach.
Have a happy Labour Day!
It's not really fair to compare any line to the Brighton, insofar as that gem of the system has so much variety and history.
True, the central portion of the Sea Beach does not have great interest, and I think some of that may have been spoiled in recent years by track furniture and other visual impediments.
But you have the novel right-of-way with its interplay with the LIRR between 4th Avenue and Bath Junction. You have the line past 86th suddenly opening into the p-r-o-w running past Coney Island and Stillwell Yards to the shore.
You also have some neat antiquarian stuff--the freight sidings, the old tunnel and traces of right-of-way heading towards Bay Ridge. I don't know if it's visible anymore, but I also used to like to trace the right-of-way to Sea Beach Palace, which still had traces of rail, ties, and even Coney Island Creek bridge in my time.
Allow also that the Sea Beach is a shell of itself through no fault of its own--it was one of the best express runs when it was the Sea Beach EXPRESS.
Thanks Paul, a good post. Actually what I liked about the Sea Beach as a kid was that it had all those small tunnels that we used to speed into and out. Instead of an overpass, once we got to New Utrecht, they compartmentalized four mini-tunnels at each street and that is what I fell in love with. Into a dark tunnel and out and lots and lots of them. The key was to get into a middle car because if you were in front it would stop just at the entrance to one whereas if you were in the middle or back you could be going through them at a good speed. Of course, there was the thrill of getting the railfan window when I finally wised up to what was what. I then could get an eyeball's view of the whole route in front of me. Yes, I loved the Sea Beach as a kid and still do. The problem is, however, that it is nothing like it was. That is why it so infuriates me that it is a local, in the damn rathole tunnel and doesn't even go to Coney Island anymore. I hope some of that does change.
What about bringing back the "NX"?
I always wondered what percentage of NX riders were really railfans who didn't have to take the line. I rode it as a teen just for the sake of riding it.
Apparently many NX riders were railfans. I understand its trains were hardly ever crowded. Lack of ridership was the main reason cited for its demise.
Perhaps 2 or 3 NX trains (in total for the day) should be run on Saturdays or Sundays to give railfans a nice ride. An extra fare or two could be charged on board to make the MTA a little money!
By the time I piped on the ship, that turd was long gone. But it was LEGENDARY among crews for COMPLETELY screwing up the railroad. One train managed to take out the Brighton, Sea Beach and West End as they tried to move NX's in the wrong direction past everything else. And three lines had to stop cold when a late NX finally managed to make its way through Stillwell. I've never heard of such contempt for a line out of employees, but the NX was legendary. If there as a formal funeral for the NX train, nobody showed. :)
Now I know what they mean when they say someone is throwing cold water on something that could be good. KILLJOY!!!!!!!!!
????? Unca Fred ... once again, you've got old Selkirk ALL WRONG! Tell ya what, boobe ... scope out the following map - the NX is E train blue in color. Follow it from Brighton Bits down through Stillwell and note that it made *NO* stops on the SeaBits at ALL! First stop after Stillwell was 59th where it jammed the SeaBits without offering ANY benefits at all. It was a BRIGHTON train that used the SeaBits to get to 4th avenue. For real ... check it out:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1967.gif
The NX may have been a "SeaBits Hexpress" but it was a hoser. You can apologize later. Heh. Moo.
Thanks cousin Selkirk. Since I've been getting you all wrong of late concerning trains, politics, and the like, maybe you should try to get to the city and touch base with your old pal unca Fred. It would be a blast for sure. Think you can work your way around it? There are a large number of people who are coming into New York from October 10-16 and I'm one of them.
Fred, make sure you're at Branford on the 13th... that's the best chance to hook up with the gang. Never know who you might find there :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not ready to reveal how or where, but YES, we WILL meet. Won't be in the city though, a bit beyond my means at the moment. But yes, I'll be in your face in person to give ya a good old fashioned Bronx slap. And it'll be on a Sunday so I'll be on my best behavior, if that's possible.
And oh yeah, bring along a good strong BELT. You'll need it to hold you in your seat. Unca Selkirk will be bringing handles and gloves and make you "go for a ride" like we used to do back in the Bronx to Sinatra. Watch the closing doors, please. Boowah-hahahaha. :)
Uh-oh, does that mean you'll hijack 1689 at Shoreline?:)
Hijack!? I took a train once and I didn't put it back. But no, it won't be a hijack. Think of me as a TSS. :)
So you'll have your trusty ball peen hammer with you then, right?:)
No mon, no my yob ... there is no greater sin in civil service than "working out of title" ... I've been brought up on CHARGES for doing so many times. So when I got into NABET, IATSE and some of the other moronic private sector gigs, *THEN* the ball pein hammer got applied. :)
Here's a sight I know you'll really like:
Can you picture yourself at the railfan window? You'll have to excuse the fact those are R-27/30s and not Triplexes.
He'd have to get on it on the Brighton line. The NX made *no* stops on the Sea Beach. None at all. :)
How fast was the NX? Please tell me it was faster than today's re-routed Ws running express on Sea Beach
Well, at least the final field shunt step was enabled in those days.
I too fondly remember the "long & little" tunnel before entering New Utrecht on the CI Sea Beach track...it's longer than the rest and curves...
I fondly remember riding in the first car of an R32...wind was blowing through the doors, onto my face as we sped through...
Like a roller coaster...
Folks, to enjoy Sea Beach, one must look at the bigger picture...some people here are spending too much time looking at the garbage on the tracks...that's not the way to enjoy the subway system, nor is it the way to enjoy NYC.
Thank you my Sea Beach colleague. You answered it in some ways better than I ever could. We Sea Beach fans know what's what.
And what year did the Sea Beach express quit running. I assume that it was for weekends in the summer and not a regular daily rush hour express.
Actually. I was referring to the Sea Beach Express run that made 57-TS-34-14-Canal-Pacific-36-59 then all stops to Coney. That was a fast train.
The last season of the express on the Sea Beach express tracks--the Franklin/Nassau aka Coney Island Express aka Sunny Sunday Summer Special was either 1952 or 1953, I forget which.
The NX was only for a little while in 1968.
I believe it was 1953. That was the last time I rode the #4BMT Sea Beach before I moved to California the next year. For some reason I cannot remember I never rode it in 1954, the year I moved to California that fall.
The #4 was the regular Sea Beach express: all stops from Stillwell to 59th, then express along 4th Ave. skipping DeKalb and Myrtle Ave. 24/7, over the bridge, and express along Broadway. Prior to 1957, Sea Beach trains terminated at Times Square before being extended to 57th St. By 1959, BMT standards were back on the Sea Beach.
The Sunny Summer Sunday Special or Franklin-Nassau Special was the Coney Island Express, using mostly BMT standards.
Yes that is true Steve but I'm glad I wasn't around to see the Standards put back onthe Sea Beach in 1959. To me the Sea Beach was the Triplex----but everybody already knew that.
A year or two later, weekend service was provided by R-27/30s, and by 1965 the R-32s had taken over on the N. I can still see that shiny new N train pulling into 36th St. on that memorable July 21.
I'm wearing my N shirt now, believe it or not.
For me, the Sea Beach was never boring. If you wanted to get to Downtown Brooklyn or Manhattan quick, you took the N Sea Beach, because the F Culver made all stops except during rush hours.
I used to get on at Kings Highway. Prior to 1976, 9 times out of 10, you got on an R32 which was faster than anything on the entire system. After 4 quick stops to New Utrecht, and then the long tunnel, you got to check out the Bay Ridge branch and the hope that one day you would see a freight train. I never did get to see .
After 8th Avenue, I would always wonder where those old railroad ties were going up to when we were going down into the tunnel at 4th Avenue. I finally learned where they originally went from this website.
After making 59th Street, it was express to Pacific Street and you could count on running down an R27-30 RR local. After Pacific, you did the twist and turns into DeKalb, where chances are you met up with an R27-30 M Brighton local.
After DeKalb, it was over the South side of the bridge where you got to see what was running on the B and D running on the North side of the bridge.
After Canal Street, you made the sharp right turn and you were pure Broadway Express, and you could count on running down an R16 EE or R27-30 RR local. The R32 N always won.............
That's what makes the Sea Beach Express so great. Maybe in 2004 again........
I have a small suggestion for you R-16. Why don't you add Sea Beach to your handle, something like Sea Beach R-16 or something like that. The more we Sea Beach fans expose ourselves on Subtalk the quicker the rest of the unwashed will realize that those of us to love our line have valid reason for doing so and that we are real fanatics about our train.
How about Sea Beach R16 Lover?
The first time I actually got to ride the R16 was when they were assigned to the Sea Beach for a time in 1976 - pre-arrival of the R46's.
And just how did the R-16s fare on the express runs? I've heard they were sluggish.
I probably rode the R16's on the N Express maybe two or three times max, and they did OK. Very similiar to the R27/30's which would occasionally make an appearance.
Keep in mind that the R16 was the heaviest 60 foot car in the system at the time, and they were never considered "fast."
Nothing, and I mean nothing, was as fast as the R32's......
The R-32s were peppy, that's for sure. They made the CPW express dash look easy. I always said the R-32s streaked effortlessly while the R-10s thundered and the R-1/9s hauled (howled) ass.
Sea Beach R-16 Lover sounds good to me. Take it. BTW, STEVE8AVEXP gave me my handle so maybe I can take a little credit for giving you your new one. I hope you use it.
OK - done. I've applied for Sea Beach R16 Lover - I'm just waiting on Dave to approve it.
You don't need Dave's approval for handles. Just exercise "squatter's rights" and go for it!
I have a small suggestion for you R-16. Why don't you add Sea Beach to your handle, something like Sea Beach R-16 or something like that. The more we Sea Beach fans expose ourselves on Subtalk the quicker the rest of the unwashed will realize that those of us who love our line have valid reasons for doing so and that we are real fanatics about our train.
Hey Fred! Maybe you, I, West End Jeff, and R16Lover other N Fans should get together to protest at TA headquarter and let them know that N deserves a better treatment than W. N has been existed longer than W. We're tire of TA officials dumping our N like yesterday's trash. Its time to turn the N W table.
Express M: I will be in town from October 11-16. If you or anyone else wants to do such a thing like picket or raise a little hell at the MTA HQ's count me in. A dozen of us or so would at least send a message that our train deserves a hell of a lot better treatment than it's been given. We have nothing to lose.
Well, at least its worth it.
Here is a photo of the German Maglev train to run in China in a few years: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/020813/170/212az.html&e=12&ncid=996. Just think of it as a really fast subway, or as what the 7-express should be.
--Brian
Maglev is the rail equivalent of the Wankel engine - wonderful idea on paper, total failure otherwise.
I haven't seen it fail. Where have you? In any case, we shall find out how it works in commericial service soon.
--Brian
Maglev is...total failure. Dan Lawrence
I haven't seen it fail. Where have you? Brian Doobie W
Where have we seen it succeed? (Dan and) I read about the imminent construction of commercial maglev lines before you were born. Pardon us for expressing skepticism.
I haven't seen it fail. Where have you?
That excuse for a city where I have the misfortune to live: Birmingham, UK. It was a short line reaching from International Station to the Main Terminal at BHX (but nevertheless more use than that godforsaken bus they've replaced it with).
I didn't say fail. When the Wankel engine was first introduced, it was the "best internal combustion engine ever developed, with none of the faults of the previous models". However when it went into production (Madza's RX-7 was built with it) it turned out to be a failure, with none of the promsied dependability. It was not even good as a small gas engine.
Maglev is going to wind up the same way - wondeful device with great potential that won't live up to the hype. Except for demonstration lines, nowhere is it used in a common carrier mode, plus the fact that the time line for the China construction is 5 years in the future.
We shall see. From all the facts available about it, Maglev in the urban invironment appears to be less inviting than steam powered elevated railways, and since it has to be elevated (no at ground demos exist, they're all elevated). Want that on your street? Plus either no research has been made on the effects of massive magnetic fields on the environment or on humans, or the maglev proponents are hiding it.
What's wrong with Wankel engines, other than the silly name?
The production run (in Mazda's RX-7 sports car) had almost constant compression problems due to the seals on the internal lobes waring out so fast that 3000 miles was the most the engines were good for before a total overhaul. A friend of mine bought a RX-7 with the Wankel engine - and got rid of it within 6 months.
BTW, what was the problem with the Birminham Airport MagLev? Can you give any detail?
The problem with the Maglev at BHX was spare parts. It was a very short line, designed as a one-off project, so the parts were unique and therefore very expensive. When it eventually broke down, they decided to close it rather than repair it because it would have cost too much to repair.
I've often wondered why they didn't build a sensible length line to begin with - for instance from International Station to BHX main terminal, then into Birmingham City Centre along the A45 Coventry Road (the main road out of the East of the City - it's about 7 miles from the City to the Airport) had it even been that scale, the cost of maintenance may have been less and it may have survived.
Or the death may have been prolonged and even more expensive. Big flops from the get go are remembered but sometimes cheaper than a slow hemmorage.
Or the death may have been prolonged and even more expensive.
You know Birmingham too well. The City has some of the highest taxes in the UK (£1,026 for Band D, compared to £910 for neighbouring Solihull Metropolitan Borough), a higher than average number of faulty streetlights, less than half the national average for childrens' play area facilities, the worst municipal library provision in the country, the worst municipal library content in the country, such a plebeian population that 84% of them think the libraries are adequate(!), over double the average car crime rate, over five times the average burglary rate, sexual crimes well above average, offences against the person over double average, so many people claiming Social Security that it takes three months to process a Social Security claim, a high rate of pedestrian deaths on roads, over double the national average of roads badly in need of resurfacing, double the amount of rent on local authority properties written off as uncollectable (hiding the fact that three times more than this simply isn't collected), dwellings which are in such a state that they consume huge amounts of the council's money and are so poor that it takes 76 days on average to find anyone to become a tenant in a vacant one, an education bill covering vast amounts of empty places as no-one wants to send their children to the Birmingham LEA's schools, and elections where only 28% bother to vote. With it being that much of a mess, I'm not really surprised the Maglev went, along with the guided busway on the #65 bus. All I can say is that I'll be glad to be leaving for Leicester in three weeks time.
Big flops from the get go are remembered but sometimes cheaper than a slow hemmorage.
Unfortunately, Birmingham as a city has been slowly haemmorhaging since the 1960s. This was noticed by the then Conservative City Council which got the Heath government in the early 1970s to gerrymander Sutton Coldfield (solid Conservative, very rich, with the highest proportion of owner-occupiers in the UK) into the City, partly to keep the Conservative group in power, partly to raid it for the money. It is notable that many of the public buildings in Sutton Coldfield date from 1970-1974 when it was about to be swallowed up, thus spending the money so Birmingham couldn't have it! In 1984, the social and financial decline got so bad in Birmingham that despite Sutton Coldfield the Conservatives lost power to the Labour Party, a party group associated with getting the deprived to vote for them, syphoning off the money for themselves (the Council Leader awarded himself a 112% pay rise last year - inflation was under 2%), thus causing more deprivation as they tax people more and anyone who can afford the house prices moves to Solihull, Redditch, Bromsgrove etc... If that isn't a slow haemmorhage, I don't know what is. And it's nowhere near over.
One problems with Wankel engines is that it was really difficult to mass produce one with more than two rotors. Three or more and you had to build it by hand, as was done with some of Mazda's racing engines. This was really more of a problem for performance cars, as two rotors provide enough power for a compact car, but it's somethign to note.
Mark
A worker looks at the world's first passenger train that uses magnets to propel it at speeds up to 430 kph (270 mph), in Shanghai. The German-made train will run on the first commercial rail link using magnetic levitation, a 66 km (40 mile) S-shaped link between Shanghai and its new international airport, with a test run scheduled for next year and a public launch in late 2003. Picture taken August 11, 2002. REUTERS/China Photo
Even if it only got up to 200 mph, it would cover the 40 mile run in five minutes. We are talking about a little airport commuter train here, guys, not a cross-country streamliner.
Now if they want ot run one between Chicago and New York... then I'll buy a ticket!
Elias
>>> Even if it only got up to 200 mph, it would cover the 40 mile run in five minutes. <<<
If that is the way you judge speed when driving, I am glad I do not have to ride with you. That is a 12 minute trip without slowing down at either end. Using their figures it is about a ten minute ride. Not bad for a trip from downtown to the airport, and probably a good test of maglev.
Tom
If that is the way you judge speed when driving, I am glad I do not have to ride with you.
Actually, I am a much better driver than a mathematician.
40 mi / 200 mi/hr = 0.2 hr
: )
Unless Queens double in size in the next 20 years I doubt We would see Maglev on the subways anytime soon
Geez.....wouldn't ya just love to be on that thing when an earthquake hits? :-)
In an op ed piece in this week's Time, Giuliani expresses his wish that the entire ground zero site be maintained as a memorial. I've always agreed with that assessment.
Giuliani may be thinking with his heart more than his head on this, but as former NYC mayor, he also knows that the office space can be made up elsewhere.
I just think it's too early to put anything there and proclaim business as usual.
I do think the 'transit hub' idea should be pursued and the LIRR connection should also be pursued.
But I think that ground zero shouldn't be a playground for architects who have suddenly been granted an 'opportunity' to build a grand creation. Some opportunity.
If "America's Mayor" agrees with me, maybe I'm not a total crackpot.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>If "America's Mayor" agrees with me,
maybe I'm not a total
crackpot. <<
No, its the forty-eight monkey
effect. BTW my own vision is smaller
buildings a 'campus' of same and
ABSOLUTELY the transit upgrade of
LIRR/FRA compliant (full size not just PATH)to lower Manhattan from
both Jersey and Bklyn. You are certainly correct that the square footage is not the issue--but I think buildings can be as good tombstons as empty space.
Well I know I'm the minority here but I think both 110 story towers should be rebuilt.
You might be in the minority here, but I am with you!
BUILD!
Me too! Forget 110-story towers and make them 200 stories.
I'm not sure of the size of the towers, but I want everything back:
o Jobs.
o Tax revenues.
o Shopping.
o Transportation terminal and enclosed walkway.
o Public spaces for performance and viewing, replacing the plaza and observation deck.
o Even the TV tower.
And I want it all to be better than before.
My preferred sceario includes four 60 story buildings around a central square. In the center, a TV tower rises 110 stories supported not by guy wires but flying buttresses cantilevered from the four towers, creating a cathedral like effect drawing the eye upward from the street.
In the base of the TV tower (in the shape of a Pentagon to remind people of the other place) you have the memorial to the rescue personnel that died, and those killed in 1993. Then 78 stories up you have the memorial to those who died in Tower II. Then, 91 stories up you have the memorial to those who died in Tower 1. Each memororial would have both a public room to pay respects, and a private room reserved in perpetuity to those who died and their descendents. Finally, from two of the 60 story towers you'd have a new and improved version of the Tribute in Lights, one which would begin from a point high enough not to disturb the neighbors.
Wow...cool idea, though I sill like mine better! j/k
What neigbors BTW? There are residents down there? I'ver been only to downtown twice and surprisingly have never seen apartment buildings.
There are some residential conversions in the financial district, but the big residential neighborhood is Battery Park City (TriBeCa is also nearby).
There are some residential conversions in the financial district, but the big residential neighborhood is Battery Park City
Which brings up an interesting demographic trend that may have some consequences for subway service. In the aftermath of September 11th, many families have moved out of BPC for what they perceive to be safer locations in suburbs and rural areas, to be replaced, for the most part, by single people. BPC's occupancy rate is at or near pre-attack levels but its density and therefore total population probably is lower. For example, an apartment that might have been occupied by a family of four on September 10 today may be occupied by two single roommates. This reduced population may translate into reduced demand for transit in the downtown area, especially during off-hours.
If a Californian can offer his opinion, I say build it even larger than the older ones. That will send a message to those terrorist @#$%$^&&% that we are a resilient people.
My gut tells me that I'd like to see the 110-story twin towers back with a memorial of some sort. I'd definitely would make the stairwells a lot wider and the walls around the stairs fireproof (as opposed to fire-retardant). In appearance it would probably look similar to the original twin towers.
Unfortunately, my rational mind tells me that if we built these towers again, it'll be destroyed again. There are too many people in the world that HATE the U.S. for whatever reason. We know this because there were more than a few people who were CELEBRATING when the twin towers were hit. While there were some outside the US who were in tears when they got word of the WTC disaster, others were HAPPY when they heard of this. That's the world we live in, that's our reality. If we build the towers up again, people will dedicate the rest of their lives to bring it down.
Great cities of the world will always rebuild after tragedies. Example, London after Nazi bombing, San Francisco after 1906 earthquake.
True, but none of those cases had war declared on them by terrorists during their rebuilding periods. These fools really want to destroy us (the U.S.).
True, but none of those cases had war declared on them by terrorists during their rebuilding periods.
So by this quote I assume that London was never bombed by terrorists after World War II?
Good point, I kinda forgot about that.
I remember what the first WTC bombers said in an interview, when asked about the future of the World Trade Center since it was still standing, they said something like "It's still standing, for now".
This shows that the next time someone interviews a terrorist, we should perhaps pay a little more (though not too much) attention to their veiled threats. If we pay too much attention, then they would have a field day with us.
The new buildings will have missle batteries at the top.
Come within five miles and you are gone.
They might come up with something different, like having subways blow up under the WTC to weaken the foundation of the building. Who knows?
They already tried to blow up the foundation on February 26, 1993.
It didn't work.
Unfortunately, my rational mind tells me that if we built these towers again, it'll be destroyed again.
Unfortunately, your rational mind isn't very rational.
First, if the new World Trade Center cowers in fear instead of standing in triumph, there will still be other super-tall buildings to destroy.
If there are no super tall buildings, SOMETHING will be taller than everything else around it, something will be significant enough to goad anti-American losers.
We live in the Home of the Brave. It is a grave travesty to build things that are influenced by fear. The other countries of the world hate as because they are grossly incapable of building a great society, so they choose to destroy ours for some sick form of parity.
Well Said
Let me see if I understand you on this one. You want to spend millions of dollars to build two new supertowers that 20 years from now people would probably find a new, devious way to destroy. I agree with the whole bravery sentiment. Heck, my gut probably agrees with every word you just said. I mouthed these same words immediately after the attack. But there is a line between bravery and stupidity. People JUST died in two towers we all thought would never collapse. Are you willing to put more lives at risk just to make a statement to the world? Have we become that arrogant? Sometimes the bravest thing to do is to admit defeat and learn from it. I'm not saying that Americans should admit defeat to these terrorists, but I'm saying that we should take drastic measures to make sure that this never happens to any of our other great structures, even if it means building a new scaled-down WTC.
Yes you're also correct in saying that they're would be other targets if the new WTC "cowers in fear", but we at least wouldn't be throwing time, energy and millions of dollars into what could be another disaster waiting to happen. That time, money and energy should be thrown to securing our remaining great structures.
EVERYTHING you do carries some risk of death. It is impossible to live life without without ever risking it.
I don't have a problem admitting to defeat... to a civilized country with a formidable and honorable military force. Unfortunately I believe that humans are rulers of the world and as such can NEVER admit defeat to any other members of the animal kingdom (or, in the case of 9/11, the fungus kingdom).
You know, I was wrong. It shouldn't be OK to admit defeat to civlized country, it should NEVER be OK to admit defeat. Death is more palatable than defeat. Death is a far, far better condition than to be intimidated by creatures with primitive or nonexistent brains, like the 9/11 terrorists.
Dang! I was about to jump all over you for insulting fungi everywhere. :)
You have to AT LEAST give credit to the terrorists for being eukaryotic (multicellular). Not a very successful branch in the evolution of eukaryotic organisms, but still.
Thugs is thugs regardless of their genetic entrails. They're all invited to commune with Darwin.
I don't know about that, some of our most famous competitors have admitted defeat and learned from them. Michael Jordan, as great as a basketball player he was, suffered a lot of defeats and setbacks. From these defeats, he learned to trust his teammates a little more. As a result of that, he became an even better player. Bruce Lee once had to fight three whole minutes to defeat a single opponent, which by Lee's standards was a defeat. From that defeat he was able to develop his skills to a higher level. Neither of these two would have become any better by first admitting their defeats then learning from them.
I think that this analogy could apply here, though I may be stretching it a bit. The terrorists beat our national security by being able to destroy the WTC. We must first accept defeat in that aspect. Now its our turn to become even stronger nation by first recognizing our flaws in security, then improving on them. Once that happens, then terroristic threats would be just that-threats.
Yes, I will agree with you in that regard, but one thing that we should correct is NOT to build everything underground, but to prevent our monuments from being destroyed, even if we build new ones.
Right on Fred. Rebuilding the twin towers will give those terrorists a message that they can't tread on us. Will just come right back. For Osama Bin Laden we should put up the old colonial flags all over Afghanistan that have the snake on it and the words "DON'T TREAD ON ME!"
#3 West End Jeff
Same here. I for one would like to see them built back as they are like this .
I agree with you. Anything less than was there before and the terrorists have won. It doesn't necessarily have to be exactly the way it was, but I feel some awe inspiring building should be built there.
>>Anything less than was there before and the terrorists have won.<<<
The terrorists, on September 11, did win. Their aim was to kill as many as possible to tell the world that their aims will ultimately prevail and that a government to their liking will eventually rule, by force.
I saw an article in the News the other day--I think it was by John Leo...that asked where our anger has gone. We have a lot of parades, we have a lot of bagpipes, but where's our resolve to end world terrorism, which would mean rooting out and destroying terrorist cells both in their countries of origin as well as here? Where's our resolve to make sure that terrorists never strike...or never THINK of striking again?
We seem to be back to business as usual, with too many thinking about how to rebuild ground zero, like it's some sort of building opportunity. It disgusts me, frankly. If we go back to business as usual, the "folks that did this", as W likes to say, will wait for their chance...and strike again.
Our current predicament calls for a completely different approach. I'm not a strategist...I don't know what to do. But I feel we're going about it the wrong way.
If you disturb an anthill, the ants will wander around in all directions, till they instinctively return to what they were doing before. Is that what we've done in Afghanistan? Are our enemies resettling and making plans anew?
www.forgotten-ny.com
We should direct our anger at weeding out the oil industry-backed greed mongers in our own country -- and at the highest levels of government -- that allowed the Taliban to flourish in the first place. As long as our country backs cut-throat bastards in the name of thwarting 'communism', these chickens will continue to come home to roost...
I agree, the Arab nations have way too much influence. Bringing this to a mass transit related thought, the Arabs want our cars to use more and more fuel so they have more money in their dirty pockets. But if we don't use cars as much, and use trains and buses instead, less money goes to the Bin Ladens.
...and you forgot to mention people like the Bushs and the Rockefellers. ;-)
I'm not sure it's a good idea to use an anthill analogy. j/k
In order to do tthat we have to be ready to deal with the underlying conditions which allow these terrorist activities to flourish - corruption, the enslavement of women in other countries; our own refusal to deal with our energy consumption and environment and other countries' perception that we deal unfairly in the Middle East.
It's very complicated, and not only do we sometimes like to be in denial about our own problems, but there are factors truly not within our control.
And focusing energy on rebuilding New York is very appropriate for dealing with this.
"The terrorists, on September 11, did win. Their aim was to kill as many as possible to tell the world that their aims will ultimately prevail and that a government to their liking will eventually rule, by force."
They succeeding in hitting us in a way to illustrate some of our vulnerabilities - but they've already paid a stiff price and are continuing to pay it. They can't win the war unless we give up. And we haven't given up.
"The terrorists, on September 11, did win. Their aim was to kill as many as possible to tell the world that their aims will ultimately prevail and that a government to their liking will eventually rule, by force."
They won a battle, they didn't win the war. There's a huge difference. According to you, the United States lost WWII on account of Pearl Harbor, and Britain was resoundingly defeated when it had to evacuate the continent and Dunkirk and leave Western Europe to the Germans.
Very well put Mr. Walsh.
My sentiments exactly.
I was not an admirer of the towers aestheticly. As to the terrorists winning, the FAR MORE relevant issues have to do with civil/human rights IMHO. A full implementation of the Stalinist TIPS program is a complete surrender of what I value in this country--which most days I am pround to be a citizen of. The free and open discussion here of rail topics would be as welcome in most Arab/Muslim societies as female taxi drivers. The lame "national security" clamp down on photography occasionaly reported here is SOP in other societies.
And now back to our regularly scheduled study of the minutiae of subway gistory.
Exactly. with TIPS, we can count on our mailmen, plumbers, noisy neighbors, etc to spy on us. Great. Who needs a search warrant? Due process? We can rebuild the eceonmy by building more jails and filling them with harmless photographers. :)
notice how every other country on t he planet thinks Bush 9and by default, the rest of us) have completely lost it?
if this keeps up, I'm loading some firearms and moving to the woods.
Well the towers height was what impressed me the most. Asthetically, they were just as appealing as a Hippo.
We should rebuild the towers, but better than before. The building needs to be more attractive, and have better safety systems.
I'm thinking a building like the Citic Plaza, Central Plaza, and Bank of China building. Why does China have all these great buildings??
It's time for NYC to compete with China and the world, and show who's boss.
A full implementation of the Stalinist TIPS program
Stalinism refers to a system that murdered 10s of millions of innocent civilians. The TIPS program would uncover those who want to emulate Stalin by murdering as many innocents as possible. I'm afraid you've got your labels mixed up.
So you believe that every single civil liberty that we have should be replaced by informers ratting people out who engage in "suspicious activities?"
Just like in the Soviet Union.
Since when does reporting suspicious activity result in "every single civil liberty that we have" being replaced? Kind of an extreme jump.
It's unfortunate that our government even had to contemplate "asking" its citizens to report suspicious activity. You'd think that people would want to act in the best interest of their country's safety without having to be asked to do so.
>>> when does reporting suspicious activity result in "every single civil liberty that we have" being replaced? Kind of an extreme jump <<<
It is interesting to note that the Soviet Constitution was based on the American Constitution and granted similar freedoms. The original leaders of the Soviet Union had a well founded fear of the capitalist nations, and in the name of national security turned the Soviet Union into the repressive police state it became in spite of its constitution.
Tom
I see.
Do you think that instead of having people spy on and rat out their neighbors, we cut out the middleman and just install telescreens (two-way TV) in every apartment and public and private facility?
INGSOC
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!
You mean you don't have a web-cam on top of your monitor like us LOYAL Americans? :)
Of course I don't advocate intrusive monitoring of all Americans. But you'd rather accuse me of something I didn't say rather than focus on what I did say.
If you saw someone about to commit a murder, would reporting it to the police be the actions of a spy or a rat? Of course not. Then what's wrong about reporting actions that may indeed be that of a terrorist?
Good luck renting it out.
That's right.
When Larry Silverstein the owner feels the same way,you know it's gotta be true.
I mean, wouldn't he want to make money?
Not all businessmen make the best business decisions.
If I come to own a company in the year 2010, I would gladly rent an office anywhere in a tall, proud WTC. I wouldn't even bother with a short, scared WTC.
And why not volunteer your free time in helping to rebuild it...
Well I know I'm the minority here but I think both 110 story towers should be rebuilt.
I see the point behind that idea, but my concern is that towers of that size wouldn't be rent-able, at least not quickly enough to be financially workable. Clearly, however, the transit hub should be a top priority.
Any facility built at the site won't be ready until at least 2008 or 2009. By that time, most of the irrational fears and anxiety will fade.
The original WTC had lower level offices ready for occupancy before the tower was completed.
"If you build it they will come". Just couldn't resist saying it.
I agree with you Qtraindash7, the twin towers should be rebuilt not only as a symbol, but as a tribute to those who perished on September 11, 2001. To make a statement the replacement twin towers should be 111 stories tall.
#3 West End Jeff
That's ridiculous...
No, I think it is appropriate.
#3 West End Jeff
I am all for building towers on the site, but certainly there needs to be a good size memorial as well. Did anyone see the wtc special on the Discovery Channel several weeks ago? It talks about how building more than 80 stories is not feasible, because you cannot build a a standard building. By going 30 stories higher, the wtc had an odd elevator setup, and not enough emergency exits. Also, because of the setup, there were not enough support beams in the middle of the tower, so when the plane hit, the heat and the fuel was able to go right up the tower, which led to the collapse.
My plan calls for a memorial in the center, because the victims should be at the center of attention. I also want three 80-story towers in a triangular formation, and each tower should have a fountain in front of it. At nighttime, those fountains would each be lit up in a different color (one red, one white, and the other blue), which would symbolize the patiritoism in America after 9/11. One tower also has the antenna, while another tower would have the connector bridge to the World Financial Center. I would also like to incorporate the former north and south tower footprints in my plan.
This way, the victims have a good memorial, business is restored to lower manhattan, and the skyline is restored. If anyone knows an architect who may be interested in my plan, feel free to e-mail me!
-Nick
I like the idea. The "red" building, the "blue" building and the "white" building. 80 stories is still a nice sized building (The ES building's observation deck is at 86, and that's not too shabby.) The memorial can even be incorporated in the top of one of the new towers, so the observation deck can be restored to that area, even if 30 stories lower :( but better than the talked about "60" story buildings that would not even stand out from the Financial Center, which is about that height. And maybe even a "Windows on the World" type restaurant on one of the others.
Sounds good to me..thanks for the input! -Nick
It talks about how building more than 80 stories is not feasible, because you cannot build a a standard building.
So don't build a standard building. Since the WTC was in fact built (along with 4 other buildings worldwide with 100 or more floors, and at least 2 more going up in Taipei and Hong Kong), it is feasible. Building that tall may not allow for the most economical design, but building tall skyscrapers isn't generally about economy, it's about egos, aspirations, and symbols.
It is feasible, but there hasnt been a single 100+ story tower built that was safe for all its occupants. Builders tend to sacrifice safety for accomplishment.
What the general public doesnt realize is that if a fire broke out anywhere above the 30-40 floor range, it is extremely difficult-if not impossible-to control. The only reliance is sprinklers, which are normally either broken or unreliable...but the public doesnt know that. In the time it would take a fire crew to reach a fire floor, the fire would be extremely difficult to contain. One 2-inch hose line can put out 2500 sq feet of fire...which isnt much. There is a major logistic problem just getting crews and equipment to the fire. Not to mention the evacuation difficulties for all the people above.
You can work in a high rise if you want to...but I will stay below the 30th floor.
You can work in a high rise if you want to...but I will stay below the 30th floor.
And I will not allow fear to control my life.
The 11th floor, the 30th floor, or the 130th floor, it is all the same above the 10th floor. 100' is what fire department ladders can reach. Anything above that requires that the building, like a naval vessel, be able to fight its own fires without outside help. It is possible. The building already has hundreds of maintenance employees, there is no reason not to require that they also be cross trained as firefighters.
Even in a smaller building, firefighters cannot go up the exit stairways until all are evacuated, they might as well stand outside with the marshmallows until then.
Elias
The 11th floor, the 30th floor, or the 130th floor, it is all the same above the 10th floor. 100' is what fire department ladders can reach. Anything above that requires that the building, like a naval vessel, be able to fight its own fires without outside help. It is possible.
Except it's not always possible. All evidence seems to indicate that the standpipe systems in both WTC towers were rendered inoperable by the airplane impacts. Even if both towers had remained standing, there's not much that the FDNY could have done except wait for the fires to burn themselves out. It's very unlikely that they could have rescued more than a couple hundred people at most.
Except it's not always possible. All evidence seems to indicate that the standpipe systems in both WTC towers were rendered inoperable by the airplane impacts.
Correct. There are some events that will always exceed the limits of a building or other structure. You cannot design for these. A building with a population in the thousands or many thousands will always have fires in it. It needs to be designed to protect the building and the people in it. The building staff, inculding fire wardens within each firm need to be able to evacuate the building without the assistance of the fire department. And those I belive are the *current* fire regulations in the city. Additionally I am suggesting that building maintenance employees be cross trained as firefighters. They ought to be able to using fire apratus built into the building, fight most expectable fires on their own without the assistance of the FDNY.
Why? because the first priority on the stairways is the egress from the building. Only once the building (or fire floors) are evacuated ought the FD go up into the building. And I believe that this too is part of the current operating guidelines of the FDNY. (Correct me if I am wrong, but I had heard this in a lecture given to EMS providers in Bismarck by an FDNY chief.)
Elias
>>> Additionally I am suggesting that building maintenance employees be cross trained as firefighters <<<
And how many daytime career maintenance workers are in an 80 story high rise office building at any given time? You are not going to give effective firefighting training to employees with high turnover. The cleaning crews and elevator maintenance are usually outside contractors. With modern push button computer controlled buildings, even the heating and air conditioning maintenance may be done by outside contractors.
Tom
And how many daytime career maintenance workers are in an 80 story high rise office building at any given time?
About 20. This is sufficient. They already have things like routine electrical, plumbing and heating maintenance. There are also people with security duties. Most security might be managed by a contractor, but it could be a contractural requirement with the contractor to provied fire and security despatching and coordination within the building.
Your key people in these areas are executive level people who are paid well and will not have outragious turnover. Your key maintenance men, likewise will be well paid with limited turnover. This is (or ought to be) a minimum requiremnt placed on landlords and building operators as imposed by a certificate of occupancy.
Elias
>>> Most security might be managed by a contractor, but it could be a contractural requirement with the contractor to provied fire and security despatching and coordination within the building. <<<
Most building security in this area is done by independent contractors using retired police officers. They are not always at the same building, so it becomes difficult to integrate them into a building fire department. Since part of their job is to watch for employee stealing, they tend not to fraternize with other building employees. In the event of a fire, they are primarily responsible for informing tenants and coordinating evacuation, so would not be immediately available for firefighting.
As good as your idea is on paper, I doubt that it would be practical for two reasons. First there are so few fires that cannot be handled by automatic sprinklers that unused skills would get rusty. This is basically a volunteer fire department that gets less than one call a year, and has no chance to learn by going to many fires to see the characteristics of various fires. Second, when there is a big fire, especially in a high rise, it needs experienced professional fire fighters. Amateurs without big fire experience would be committing suicide trying to advance with an interior attack on a floor that was fully involved, or even one where there was high temperature and zero visibility because of thick smoke (and the danger of an immediate flash over).
This is not to say that building personnel should not be given some fire training, such as using hand extinguishers to put out small fires, and which type of extinguisher should be used on what type of fire, and not taking an elevator to a fire floor, but turning them into a fire department to fight a major conflagration is impractical.
Tom
In the event of a fire, they are primarily responsible for informing tenants and coordinating evacuation, so would not be immediately available for firefighting.
Correct, that is all I intended of them,,, dispatching efforts from the command console.
This is basically a volunteer fire department that gets less than one call a year, and has no chance to learn by going to many fires to see the characteristics of various fires.
Also correct. This is a problem with our rural fire department too. So you schedule training at a fire training facility. Most of the training consists of what they can and cannot handle safely. Most Small fires are either supressed by sprinkler systems or are easily contained by these 'voulunteer' fire fighters.
I picture the response to be more of the 'flying squad' aboard ship, a handfull of professionals who can take charge, and usually control small problems. They need proper equipment pre-located at appropriate places throughtout the building.
First concerns, as always is the evacuation of people from the fire area, and then the physical containment of the fire. This may include shutting down fire doors, and flooding the area with sprinkler water of other agents. If this is done then only FDNY would be able to open and re-enter the area.
All of this is a moot point when faced with the 9-11 disaster which was and will always be outside of possible defensive parameters. The bigger bomb always wins over armour and perperatiion. Nothing you can do about that.
Elias
You may not have effective firefighting with 80 story towers, but you can design a building that will allow just about everyone (if not all) to escape. You can replace buildings, but not people. -Nick
1) You *can* have effective firefighting anywhere in a building, no matter how tall. What you do not have is access to the building by firedepartments sitting outside on the pavement. Such buildings need to be built with internal fire supression equipment in addition to sprinklers. This includes the availability of personel, bunker equipment, Breathing Equipment, hoses and adequate standpipes, with water supplies on upper floors. (No pumps allowed during fires).
2) You do not need all of the occupants to escape the building. They only have to escape the fire. The building needs to be able to protect people in the non-involved areas. The stairways at WTC were not designed to evacuate 50,000 people all at once, but only to evacuate the fire floors, and then to commence with an orderly evacuation. This they did do at WTC. Most people were evacuated. Some were destroyed by the initial impact, and otheres were trapped above the fires. Most of the others were able to get out, or so it seems.
3) The WTC did a MUCH BETTER job of protecting its occupants than the Pentagon did. However, there is no way that any building be it one storey or 110 stories can be expected to survive all unforessable seneriaos. You SUV will protect you in a collision with a Yugo, but will not help you in a collision with an SD-90. Still, you cannot build an SUV that will protect you in a collision with an SD-90, not even an Abrhams tank can do that.
4) Your life is in the hands of your Creator, be it long or short. Live it to the full, watch out for yourself and for others, but do not put fear in tall buildings or foreigners with funny ideas and headgear.
Elias
Good words of wisdom :-) -Nick
Sprinklers are and should be totally reliable if looked after and maintained properly. Part of the maintenance should be a thorough inspection and test at the most remote point to ensure the availabilty of water supplies. I do conceeed that following installtion the systems may not be looked after by the building owners. Systems in the UK must be installed by certificated engineers. No one in the UK has died due to a fire in a sprinkler protected building.
I share your concerns for buildings over 30 storeys.
Simon
Swindon UK
Given the intensity and heat of the fires in the WTC buildings, even if the pipes hadn't been cut by the planes and even if the sprinklers had worked, about all that would have come of it was steam. What happened at WTC was no ordinary fire.
even if the pipes hadn't been cut by the planes and even if the sprinklers had worked, about all that would have come of it was steam.
No, actually, the fuel, and therefore the fire would be above the water. The big problem there was that the water would wash the burning fuel down throught the rest of the building.
Elias
Could be as well ... the one thing that I had heard on a number of analyses of what happened is that if the sprinklers had sprayed, the heat was SO intense, the water would have turned straight to steam before it hit the floor. I'm told that fires that weren't as hot have been known to do that. But I make no claims of expertise.
(the one thing that I had heard on a number of analyses of what happened is that if the sprinklers had sprayed, the heat was SO intense, the water would have turned straight to steam before it hit the floor. I'm told that fires that weren't as hot have been known to do that.)
The first National Institute of Standards investigation found that the super-hot fuel fire burned out quickly, but a normal contents fire melted the steel. The sprinkler lines were cut -- there was no water -- and the impact blasted the fireproofing off the steel. All previous high rise fires had burned themselves out. NO ONE had ever died in a fully fireproof building with sprinklers before.
Could it happen again? An airplane might knock over a lesser building, so there is no defense. I'm told that what REALLY worries people is the fact that 7 WTC collapsed.
That's one I won't even speculate on. Like the last "bunker mentality" government we had, there's more than enough conspiracy food here. Here's just TWO of them:
http://www.baltech.org/lederman/giuliani-wtc-collapse-3-01-02.html
http://www.iiie.net/Sept11/LiesAndVideotape.html
One of the things I learned a long time ago is when someone sees a UFO, it's time to go home ...
things like that anger me beyond belief.
oh gimme a break. everything is a "conspiracy". remember the e-mails that circulated days after the WTC attacks about the "predictions" that Nostradamus made (about 100 years after he died, no less)? People love finding ways to stir up the public. A missile? you have GOT to be kidding me. I watched the entire event from the windows of Stuyvesant High School, about 4 blocks away. Missle my ass.
"One of the things I learned a long time ago is when someone sees a UFO, it's time to go home ... "
You got that right SelkirkTMO.
Referring to Lyndon LaRouche as a "credible source" did it for me. Fer Sher, them's space aliens. :)
I'm told that what REALLY worries people is the fact that 7 WTC collapsed.
As has been noted elsewhere, the large diesel fuel tank inside the building, used to provide emergency power to the Mayor's "bunker," probably enabled the fire to reach temperatures sufficient to cause failure of the structural steel. Very few if any skyscrapers have fuel tanks of that sort, at least not in similarly exposed locations, so hopefully 7 WTC's collapse will never be repeated elsewhere.
Actually, it may not have mattered much if the building had remained standing. It looks as if 7 WTC was very heavily engulfed in flames before its collapse. The building might very well have been damaged beyond repair. Today it might be like the Deutsch Bank building on Liberty Street, a ruined, uninhabitable hulk whose ultimate fate remains uncertain.
If I was da mayor of da city of New York, I'd not build my command post there!
Here in North Dakota, our State-Wide command post is on the grounds of the Fraine (Nat'l Guard Amry) Barricks, in a fortifided bunker 40' below an open field.
So if I was da mayor, I'd build my bunker (and a bunker is needed) deep under central park. No Problems!
Elias
Yeah 7 didn't even get hit by a plane, but had fires due to debris falling from 1 WTC.
It has been mentioned that Port Authority buildings weren't required to have as strict codes as the rest of the city.
Indeed the sytem would have been useless. Generally sprinkler systems are designed for one fire in one place at one time and have a maximum area of operation usually for offices about 186m2. These were exceptional circumstances.
Simon
Swindon UK
You can work in a high rise if you want to...but I will stay below the 30th floor.
I do work in a high rise, above the 30th floor. If the sprinklers don't work, the problem is not the design of the building, it's a maintenance and inspection problem of making sure the sprinklers always work. Of course, sprinklers probably wouldn't have helped in the WTC. So be it, that scenario is different from an "ordinary" office building fire, where I believe that sprinklers would work. There are too many dangers in life to plan things around extreme scenarios like what happened at the WTC. If we planned for all of them we'd never leave our self-contained habitation bunkers and never have any children.
"So don't build a standard building"
Sorry, I left out an important aspect of my design. I would like the towers to have the same shape and width as the original ones. But the towers don't need to look the same, since the old towers were impressive for their height, not the way they looked. -Nick
My plan calls for a memorial in the center, because the victims should be at the center of attention.
I believe the memorial should be peripheral to the site, since LIFE has to be at the center of attention.
Why should we, our children and our children's children be forced to wallow in death?
Good point. Celebrating life can certainly be apart of this memorial. But at the same time, the victims need to be remembered as well. -Nick
The best way to provide a memorial to the victims is not to have let their murderers alter the most famous, and pride-inspiring horizon the world has ever known.
I couldn't agree with you more, Alan! :-) -Nick
(In an op ed piece in this week's Time, Giuliani expresses his wish that the entire ground zero site be maintained as a memorial.
I've always agreed with that assessment. )
To complete the proposal, I suggest the abandonment of all parks under five acres, the permanent closure of all local library branches, the end of all bus service between 1 a.m. and 5 a.m., and the permanent end of all art and music instruction in NYC's public schools. This will make up for the lost tax revenues.
Hey, we are talking about the guy who tried to illegally GIVE AWAY the high line here.
F ghooliani.
Well, I agree with you abt the high line. As a rule, pre 9-11, Giuliani could always be counted on to put in with the developers, and the developers see pristine territory if they could only tear down the high line.
The high line should be made into a parkway/urban trail, as so many other abandoned RRs in the USA have been...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Or what about a subway line! I got that from OldNYC's section for the High Line and is so true. I'm sad though, since it will never come to reality.
the climate seems a lot more favorable for the park now. As you know, this town has a nasty habit of paving over it's own history, hopefully that won't happen in this case.
Or you could raise property taxes in NYC.
(Or you could raise property taxes in NYC.)
Gladly. Just eliminate the local income tax and (for those self-employed) the unincorporated business tax. I think having an easier tax comparison with the suburbs would be a real eye opener. Total local taxes here are 20 to 50 percent higher, depending on who you are and where you live.
Total local taxes here are 20 to 50 percent higher, depending on who you are and where you live.
Or dramatically lower, on those same criteria.
One issue that is often ignored is that the property tax is most regressive tax possible. If you have no income and spend nothing, you still owe the same property tax. It is not a reflection of wealth, just an indication that you live someplace.
One issue that is often ignored is that the property tax is most regressive tax possible. If you have no income and spend nothing, you still owe the same property tax.
I have got some male-bovine by-products in the back field that I can sell you....
How is PROPERTY TAX regressive??????
Only the RICH own property anyway!
Actually it dates bact to a time when the only tax was the property tax, and this was also a time when only property owners could vote anyway.
My raw suggestion is that everyone should pay an incometax at a rate of say 15%, and that every business pay an incometax of say 0.5% on all gross income.
Why? well first, I eliminate every tax break and loop hole (save standard exemptions and charitable contributions). You earn x dollars, you pay 15% x in tax. Period. no long forms no cheating.
Why so little for business? Because it is on GROSS INCOME and not declaired profit. Doesn't matter what the company claims for expenses of if they moved their offices to the Bahamas. Pay 0.5% of all INCOME, regardless of expensess, salaries, etc etc. No Loop holes not accounting tricks. You touched the money, you owe the tax, before you spirit it out of the country or pay it off to corporate theives, and call it expenses.
Elias
I'm glad YOU think I'm rich just because I own property. My bank would probably disagree with you.
Heh. Agreed. My adjusted taxable income last year was just a shade over $8,000 but my combined school and property taxes topped $4,000. Nothing gets me happier than paying more than 3/4 of my income in taxes. :)
YIPES! That sucks...you need a houseboat and a satellite for internet service;)
How is PROPERTY TAX regressive??????
Only the RICH own property anyway!
Actually it dates bact to a time when the only tax was the property tax, and this was also a time when only property owners could vote anyway.
It can be regressive because many people will see their tax liability increase dramatically as their houses or other properties appreciate even though their incomes may not have risen commeasurately.
Only the RICH own property anyway!
I wish I was... and while I'm not "house poor", I have very little in the bank for the proverbial rainy day. Children, especially those in pursuit of higher education, tend to be a bit of a financial drag. And while I do own two houses in two different states (North Carolina and New Jersey), they're both small and somewhat rundown because (thanks to the taxes on the one in New Jersey) they're on the "deferred maintenance" plan.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: The property owner is being taxed out of existence and what is needed is what we did in California in 1978====Proposition 13, which assessed taxable property at 1% of assessed valuation. Those who already owned their home got the tax break of their lives. Those who bought after 1978 still get taken to the cleaners. But was better than nothing.
Only the RICH own property anyway!
How do you define rich?? This would be news to me and my neighbors-- we're rich because we own houses.... sheeeeesh.....
>>> It is not a reflection of wealth, just an indication that you live someplace. <<<
Of course it is a reflection of wealth. The tax is based on the value of the property. The more property you own, in terms of value, the more tax you pay. Even if you do not own property, the tax is a component of the rent you pay, so everyone pays the tax, but the wealthier pay more.
The property tax also encourages the utilization of property, since if you own a tract of property that is fallow you will pay tax on it, which may encourage you to put the property to work to earn enough to pay its taxes. That usually means jobs, and a general increase in the wealth of the area.
Tom
(The tax is based on the value of the property. The more property you own, in terms of value, the more tax you pay. Even if you do not own property, the tax is a component of the rent you pay, so everyone pays
the tax, but the wealthier pay more. The property tax also encourages the utilization of property, since if you own a tract of property that is fallow you will pay tax on it, which may encourage you to put the property to work to earn enough to pay its taxes. That usually means jobs, and a general increase in the wealth of the area.)
I see you agree with the counter-revolution in evaluation the property tax since it was declared regressive in the 1950s. There are three things about the property tax people don't like. It is difficult for people to cheat on their own. It is easy for groups of people to help with the assistance of government -- property tax assessments are generally unfair. And it is one tax the elderly have to pay, and they are not used to being on that end of public spending.
There are three things about the property tax people don't like. It is difficult for people to cheat on their own. It is easy for groups of people to help with the assistance of government -- property tax assessments are generally unfair. And it is one tax the elderly have to pay, and they are not used to being on that end of public spending.
Part of the reason why older people tend to dislike the property tax is the fact that they often have paid off their mortgages and therefore have to pay taxes in one or two annual installments. Younger people are more likely to have mortgages and therefore pay their taxes via monthly escrow collections. It doesn't seem quite as painful when you pay in that manner.
Younger people are more likely to have mortgages and therefore pay their taxes via monthly escrow collections. It doesn't seem quite as painful when you pay in that manner.
Until you look at your monthly mortgage statement and find that 62% is going to interest, 37.6% to taxes and insurance, and 0.4% to principal. (That's a fairly typical breakdown for the first year of a 30-year mortgage today in New Jersey. For my own mortgage [a 15-year note at approximately the same interest rate as I could get today, with 10+ years to go, in a relatively tax-cheap area of NJ], the figure right now is 40.4% to interest, 23.2% to taxes and insurance, and 36.4% to principal.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Until you look at your monthly mortgage statement and find that 62% is going to interest, 37.6% to taxes and insurance, and 0.4% to principal. (That's a fairly typical breakdown for the first year of a 30-year mortgage today in New Jersey. <<<
The small amount to principal (but more than 0.4% unless it is a very high interest loan) is typical of a 30 year mortgage anywhere. It is also the reason there are no 40 year mortgages. At 5% interest the monthly P&I payment for a 40 year loan is 89.8% of the payment for a 30 year loan. At 12% the P&I monthly payment for a 40 year loan is 98.0% of the payment for a 30 year loan.
Tom
Agreed. Perhaps I should have contrasted it with figures for rural North Carolina, where the same total monthly payment would have about 5% going to taxes and insurance and you'd pay the loan off in 12 years (or where a 30 year mortgage would still have a payment that would have less than 10% going to taxes and insurance).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not as onerous when you realize that, because so much is interest that first year, it also means you get a very sizable deduction on your income tax.
It's not as onerous when you realize that, because so much is interest that first year, it also means you get a very sizable deduction on your income tax.
But the deduction is less valuable if you're in the lower income tax brackets. Yet another way the property tax is regressive.
"But the deduction is less valuable if you're in the lower income tax brackets. Yet another way the property tax is regressive."
True. However, if you are able to buy a starter house ($35,000 in some parts of Philly) then even on a limited income, you can get some benefit (as opposed to being a renter, previously).
But I agree with your main point.
And I agree with your point as well.
The famous New York socialist Norman Thomas thought that people should own the space they lived in, even if it's an apartment. In addition to the obvious idea that you should own your living space, eather than pay tribute to a landlord (or the state) he felt that it promoted social responsibility and stablized and improved neighborhoods.
Agreed. The building where I grew up (941 Jerome Av at 161 Street, in the Bronx) went down hil in the 1970's, then was rehabilitated as a coop and did much better.
>>>The building where I grew up (941 Jerome Av at 161 Street, in the Bronx)<<<
Really? I grew up at 1210 Nelson at 167th, just up the hill. Small world. What school did you go to?
Peace,
ANDEE
Went to a private Jewish day school, Kinneret, on the Grand Concourse. I attended this school because it had an elevator (and the public school did not), and I wore a brace on my left leg at the time.
I went to Sacred Heart, guess we never ran into each other. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
But we sure endured much of the same...well...
:0)
LOL...ain't that the truth. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> But the deduction is less valuable if you're in the lower income tax brackets. Yet another way the property tax is regressive. <<<
That is backward reasoning. The income tax is progressive, the property tax is neutral, the type of "flat tax" that conservative would be income tax reformers are calling for.
Tom
The "flat tax" proposals are flat as to percentage of income, not amount.
>>> The "flat tax" proposals are flat as to percentage of income, not amount. <<<
Which is also true about property taxes.
Tom
>>> The "flat tax" proposals are flat as to percentage of income, not amount. <<<
Which is also true about property taxes.
Assume a "flat income tax" of 15%, property tax of $5,000.
Person makes $50,000.
Income tax is $7,500 (15%)
Property tax is $5,000 (10%)
Person make $10,000.
Income tax is $1,500 (15%)
Propery tax us $7,5000 (50%).
We generally use the terms progressive, flat and regressive in relation portion to income taxed, regardless of how the tax is actually collected--i.e., on income, property, sales, etc.
Actually the flat tax proposals are still somewhat progressive, since they all anticipate large deductibles. I'm not an advocate, before we get on that tangent.
>>> Assume a "flat income tax" of 15%, property tax of $5,000. <<<
You are starting an apples and oranges comparison with this example. If you compare a 15% income tax to a 1% of assessed valuation tax property tax, you will see that they are both flat with regard to what they are measuring. Income tax tends to be progressive because higher marginal income is taxed at higher rates. The social security tax tends to be regressive since it has an upper limit on the amount taxed.
A property tax is regressive if the first $100,000 of value is taxed at 1% and value higher than $100,000 is taxed at a lower rate such as 0.75%. I have not done a survey, but I think such regressive property taxing systems are rare.
To call a property tax regressive because a property owner with less income pays a higher percent of his income to pay the same amount as a person with a higher income is an improper (but politically popular) use of the term, usually reserved for consumption (sales) taxes.
Tom
I understand your technical point, but you're playing with language. When we describe taxes as regressive, flat or progressive in this society, we generally mean in relation to income or ability to pay.
The "flat tax" advocates are advocating a tax that is flat (relatively) in terms of rate, not absolute amount.
Taxes that are actually flat in amount as you're describing are usually called capitations.
However, the less affluent are less easily able to pay an increased property tax than more affluent people. In this sense it is not quite neutral, and may have a similar effect to a flat income tax.
Property taxes are favored on a macro-scale due to their (overall) stability - they are due and payable even if there are decreases in income tax collections, so they help local governments better predict their incomes.
Property taxes are favored on a macro-scale due to their (overall) stability - they are due and payable even if there are decreases in income tax collections, so they help local governments better predict their incomes.
And property taxes are even more stable when compared to sales taxes, which are notoriously economy-sensitive.
"The income tax is progressive, the property tax is neutral, the type of "flat tax" that conservative would be income tax reformers are calling for."
No, Tom, the property tax is regressive in practice. However, the source of this is often in valuations, not the tax itself. Very expensive homes are often under-assessed. Very cheap homes are often over-assessed due to assessors not wanting to go below a threshold. This is well-documented in Philadelphiaand in other places. The most accurate assessments occur in the middle. So in practice, the wealthy do end up paying less than they should, and the poor, more.
No, Tom, the property tax is regressive in practice. However, the source of this is often in valuations, not the tax itself. Very expensive homes are often under-assessed. Very cheap homes are often over-assessed due to assessors not wanting to go below a threshold. This is well-documented in Philadelphiaand in other places. The most accurate assessments occur in the middle. So in practice, the wealthy do end up paying less than they should, and the poor, more.
So in other words: It is not the TAX that is unfair or regressive, but rather the slopy, racist and truly unfair way that property is assessed. and *THAT* I can agree with to the extent that it is true, and I also accept that it *IS* true to a very great extent.
So it is not the TAX in need of repair but assessment procedures and rules. Ind those will be a lot easier to fix than to change the tax. Changing Assessment procedures is a matter of administrative rule making, changing a tax law is frought with special intrests (and chizzlers both rich and poor) from hell and back.
Elias
>>> it is not the TAX in need of repair but assessment procedures and rules <<<
The key to fair assessment is basing the tax on fair market value rather than some "assessed value" which is based on some formula regarding the size of the property. Since in California, assessment is recalculated upon the sale of real property, the sale price must be reported to the assessor upon change of title. In an arm's length transaction, that is an excellent indicator of fair market value. Problems occur when there is a casualty such as fire or earthquake, which reduces the value of a particular piece of real estate, or real estate is transferred between family members for less than fair compensation, or an area (usually rural) has had no sales of real estate for a long period of time.
Tom
"Fair market value" is not fair either, if by fair you mean that that the value of the property is an indication of the homeowner's ability to pay.
When a family lives in a house for 20 years, the area they live in good become more expensive, raising the "market" value of their home. In the meantime, their income could be stagnant or even decline. The "wealth" represented by their house is meaningless unless they sell it. They where are they supposed to live.
They should sell the house and buy a cheaper one. They would not only have to pay less taxes, but get some money that can be invested or used to purchase furniture or nice appliances.
They should sell the house and buy a cheaper one. They would not only have to pay less taxes, but get some money that can be invested or used to purchase furniture or nice appliances.
One could scoff at your suggestion, indeed, I almost did so, but that is EXACTLY what my parents did when dad retired. They sold the house on Long Island, and bought one for much less money in Pennsylvania, that also had a much lower assesd evaluation.
The reason for an 'assessed evaluation' instead of a market value evaluation is to account for inflation and market changes. All of the houses were supposed to be assessed in 1960 dollars or whatever the baseline might be. When it is time to set a new bench mark, the rate is also adjusted.
Leastwise that is the theory as I understood it. Your Taxes and Results May vary, not valid where restricted or taxed.
>>> "Fair market value" is not fair either, if by fair you mean that that the value of the property is an indication of the homeowner's ability to pay. <<<
"Fair market value" has no correlation with a homeowner's ability to pay. It is an economic concept, not a social one. "Fair market value" is defined as the amount a willing seller will sell his property for and a willing buyer will pay for it assuming both parties have knowledge of all pertinent information about the property.
>>> When a family lives in a house for 20 years, the area they live in good become more expensive, raising the "market" value of their home. In the meantime, their income could be stagnant or even decline. <<<
Theoretically, the family has planned for the increase in value of the house, and has other investments, not just its house, and these other investments are structured in such a way as to allow the payment of the increased property tax. Unfortunately most Americans have absolutely no investment education or understanding of that principal, and invest all their available funds in a house that is too expensive for their income, and therefore have one big illiquid asset instead of a balanced portfolio.
Tom
No, the essential tax is wrong. It comes from an era when property was wealth, and only property owners had power or could even vote in some cases.
The Property Tax didn't ontemplate the era when average people owned their own living space, and where owning real property was not indicative of ability to pay.
The Property Tax didn't ontemplate the era when average people owned their own living space, and where owning real property was not indicative of ability to pay.
This may be so, and maybe there *should* be changes, but I do not forsee or support an elimination of the property tax. The best I would hope for is a review and restructuring of how it is assessed and collected.
Elias
The REAL ANGER/FEAR derives from insane real estate increases such as a house bought in 1977 for a paltry $25k is now perhaps worth $375-400k. So imagine how the real estate tax would skyrocket while your income went up much less. (can you say prop 13?) And why do you think not enough housing is being built? (a clue, if we built as fast as the market, existing housing would not apreciate as fast)
>>> And it is one tax the elderly have to pay, and they are not used to being on that end of public spending. <<<
The reason California voters approved Proposition 13 back in the 70s. That law limited increases in tax valuation of real property to 2% per year until ownership changed (when it was reassessed at market value). It was meant to protect pensioners from losing their homes to increasing taxes, but since it was not limited to natural persons, corporations got a big windfall too, and the state lost a lot of income since the upward valuation of corporate real property was also limited.
Tom
(The reason California voters approved Proposition 13 back in the 70s. That law limited increases in tax valuation of real property to 2% per year until ownership changed (when it was reassessed at market value). It was meant to protect pensioners from losing their homes to increasing taxes, but since it was not limited to natural persons, corporations got a big windfall too, and the state lost a lot of income since the upward valuation of corporate real property was also limited.)
The effect of Prop 13 has been to shift the tax burden to the state level, which limits the difference in taxes and spending between rich and poor communities. As a result, services are more equitable in California than in New York. And in New York, with Medicaid costs paid in part by local government, the state has raised Medicaid payments to double California's level.
>>> the state has raised Medicaid payments to double California's level. <<<
Which is not saying much. Other than a few "clinics" who grab everyone they can off the streets (sending vans to welfare offices) to treat in a factory assembly line fashion even if they are not ill, it is hard to find any doctors who will accept new Medi-Cal patients because they can not pay their office overhead with the reimbursement, and take an out of pocket loss for each patient they treat.
Tom
I'm not comparing NY to California, but still New York medicare has to be a scandal. I can't imagine spending more money to give less actual service than NY medicare provides.
The costs of health care are skyrocketing because more people are demanding more care for more issues, and because advances in health care have made more options available in the first place.
In the past, people would only see a doctor when they were really sick, which is not to say that regular checkups and preventitive care are not got things (they are), but with more people in the system, having more tests which themselves are more costly, it is unfair to hold the helath care professions to a flat comparisson of inflation rates. You are trying to compare a 1960s McDonald's burger with a 2002 Filet Mingion dinner at the Swank Resturant!
If we need to look at public support for health care, then it is entirely reasonable to consider what the public (and public purse) is willing to pay for, and to exclude some sorts of care from that policy. This does happen all of the time in the private sector. If you buy a health insurance policy based on price alone, you have already made your choice, and it seems disingenious for one to later bitch because something is not covered. You *could* have purchased a more comprehensive package, but you choos not to because you were cheap. Tough brake dust (to keep a *little* bit on topic).
I do not have an answer for the issues of health care, public or otherwise, but it is not reasonable to compare New York coverage to that of California, or an American system with a Canadian system which BTW has many faults and drawbacks that you do not hear about.
However, I will take issue with greed! Be it the greedy rich wanting more tax cuts, or the greedy poor wanting more handouts. Either we work together to make America great or we fight together until we follow the path of the Soviet Union into a limbo of nothingness.
At least we know that we *can* pull together to make great things happen, if we wanted to.
Elias
The costs of health care are skyrocketing because more people are demanding more care for more issues, and because advances in health care have made more options available in the first place.
That is rather non-responsive to my point, which is that New York Medicare is probably the least service for the most bucks.
The last time I looked at the detailed numbers (about a year ago) the cost per recipient was about $6,600/year. Compare this to my market rate insurance policy, for which I pay about $8,000/year. That's for my entire family of four.
Sure, you can argue that my policy has higher co-pays and doesn't cover some important things, such as dental, but still the difference is ridiculous. You can't say the recipients are getting the $$$ in service. A Medicare family of four is "costing" some $26,000 a year. For that, they should be getting Park AVenue doctors making house calls with their entire staffs. Check the reality. Where does the money go?
Check the reality. Where does the money go?
A lot of it is lost in fraud. (Both on the part of the provider and on recipiant cheats).
More is lost in beuocracy. More in the paper work to prove that you were doing the job right.
Some is the fault of lawmakers, requiring so and so services.
Medicaid services cover things like nursing homes, that are NOT covered by your healt insurance dollars, but is gastly expensive. Out here we are over $125 a day for a nursing home placement, while you costs are probably closer to $300/day.
You can't give me a cost comparisson until you also compare what is covered.
But the bottom line is IT COSTS! and it WILL COST MORE
Elias
In New York, that money goes into the "General fund" with all other receipts from various taxes and fees. It's part of the huge shell game they play (with the full blessings of the Governor) which end up getting disbursed for train stations nobody wants, baseball stadiums in the middle of a trailer park and various other "member items" and tax breaks for companies that take the money and run to another state with it.
A lot of these issues could be solved by DEDICATED funding for specific purposes such as medicaid, but that's not the way the juice flows in THIS state.
"The property tax also encourages the utilization of property, since if you own a tract of property that is fallow you will pay tax on it, which may encourage you to put the property to work to earn enough to pay its taxes. That usually means jobs, and a general increase in the wealth of the area."
While I am not a big fan of the property tax,you have given a highly intelligent defense of it. However, since you are a realtor, doesn't the property tax affect your income by discouraging home ownership. My opinion is that if a person buys something, it belongs to him. Because of the property tax, nobody in America owns real estate because of the livegage* held by the government.
(*Livegage- a form of loan with perpetual payments.)
>>> My opinion is that if a person buys something, it belongs to him. Because of the property tax, nobody in America owns real estate because of the livegage* held by the government. <<<
All sort of property needs additional payments to maintain it. Property taxes are appropriate to pay for fire and police protection, and many of the other services of government which help maintain the value of the property. If you own a vehicle, you must pay for maintenance and repairs to maintain its value (and a tax through annual registration). If you own a boat, you need to pay docking fees, and if it is large enough, crew salaries. If you own valuable jewelry or art works you will have to pay for security. Someone else used the term "house poor" which usually refers to someone who owns real estate, but does not have the liquid assets to pay the taxes and maintain the property. I have often said that if someone wanted to give me a Rolls Royce automobile, I could not afford to keep it because I could not afford the insurance, registration, or the cost of repairing it. Everyone who owns any property, real or personal, must have liquid assets to pay the maintenance costs.
Tom
TV game show contestants who win cars or other high value goods often sell them or take out loans to pay income taxes on their winnings.
Let's make this real on-topic.
General property taxes have little to no relationship between tax and benefit. A large piece of unbuilt land uses no more police service than a small one, That's why you have special use taxes. The biggest portion of property tax goes to the schools, where your use of service depends on having children, not having acreage.
A homeowner has all these maintenance expenses you speak of, none of which is paid from the property tax. My property taxes do not buy me insurance for my house ($1,000 plus/year) or paint it, or fix damage, or put on a new roof. They don't pay for my heat. These are all items you expect to be included in your rent, but are not paid by your property tax. So property taxes are not a sort of communal property maintenance plan.
But what I'm making real is this: Suppose you have some nice items inyour personal railfan collection. A few items become very rare over the years, and are now worth $100,000. The state passes a personal propety tax and all items that are not necessities of life are taxed 5% per annum. You now have to, in effect, buy back your collection each year for $5,000, even though you protest that you bought the items originally for much less than that. If you don't have the $5,000, you have to sell part of your collection to pay the tax. If you refuse, the state can take you whole collection and sell it for a fraction of its value, just so they can get "their" money.
That's what property tax is like.
Thank You, Paul.
>>> That's what property tax is like. <<<
And your point is?? The property tax is a levy on accumulated wealth. Historically, that type of tax long precedes income taxes as a way to finance governments. It is so much easier to tax accumulated wealth (especially real property) that can be seen than income which can be hidden in so many ways. The taxing authorities like the theory that the government services have assisted the wealthy in accumulating their wealth, and therefore they should pay more.
The property taxes are one of the expenses of owning property.
Tom
Oh, I understand. You're in favor of taxing material benefits you receive through government action.
I guess you're in favor of taxing rent controlled apartments. To the renters, I mean.
>>> Oh, I understand. You're in favor of taxing material benefits you receive through government action.
I guess you're in favor of taxing rent controlled apartments. To the renters, I mean. <<<
I do not think I expressed any support of any particular scheme of taxation in my prior posts. I did point out that renters do end up paying property taxes as a component of their rent. Rent control on a building would tend to lower the valuation of the building, since the value of rental property is tied to the amount of rents one can receive, and therefore lower the amount of tax the owner pays compared to a similar building without rent control.
Tom
Because of the property tax, nobody in America owns real estate because of the livegage* held by the government.
Land Ownership is not such a natural thing as you might suspect. Many cultures in the world (including the American Indiaans prior to the adoption of white ideas) had no concept of land ownership. You are the custodian or steward of the land and its resources. In token of this the property tax is a way for society to place its claim on the land. For a price you may buy the deed to this land, but there is a perpetual fee for your continued use of the land. If this fee is no longer paid, the land reverts to the city or county, and may be sold to another steward.
In an off line discussion on taxes I was treating on the idea that each tweeking of the tax code was infact another set of loopholes that people will climb through. The previously mentiond effects of prop 13 (heretofore unknown to me) demonstrates how poorly crafted law caused the opposite effect of what was intended (ie the elderly should be relived of property tax increase-- and the corporations acruing to themselves the same benefit)
Methinks that tax law ought to raise revenue for the government and that other laws and regulations ought to enforce or promote social policy including respectible corporate responsibility to society as a whole.
Elias
Land Ownership is not such a natural thing as you might suspect. Many cultures in the world (including the American Indiaans prior to the adoption of white ideas) had no concept of land ownership. You are the custodian or steward of the land and its resources.
Ah, so now we're invoking Native American land concepts. Aside from the inherent ethnocentrism of describing American Indians as though they were a single culture instead of diverse cultures that sometimes warred with each other (and they weren't warring over scripture), other cultures have also had concepts of land ownership residing in a diety or spirit (representing communalism) and that those occupying it were revocable stewards of it. It was called fuedalism, and since God generally did not specify who should steward what, this was left to Kings and Nobles who interpreted God's command.
To paraphrase the social historian L. Sprague DeCamp, it's interesting that when tribal or feudal leaders interpreted their Deity's will in the distribution of land they controlled it seemed that the "stewardship" went to members of their own tribe, not to those of the neighboring tribe.
In token of this the property tax is a way for society to place its claim on the land.
"In token of this." Nice phrase. If the government wants to assert its heavenly stewardship, they can do it with a dollar a year, not more than 7,000 of them, in my case.
there is a perpetual fee for your continued use of the land. If this fee is no longer paid,
"No longer paid" encompasses "no longer can pay." Lose your income, you don't pay income tax. Lose you income and fail to pay your property tax because you chose to feed your children first, you lose your house.
Nice concept. Nice society.
I also disagree with Rudy, the WTC site should not just be a memorial space. The real question is does NYC need to replace all of the 13 million square feet of office space destroyed in the terrorist attacks of last year. Many of the former WTC tenants have permanently relocated to midtown Manhattan or the suburbs. I don't hear them clamoring to return to downtown. Even the NYSE is thinking of opening a second trading floor in Westchester. Modest un-rushed rebuilding plans plus a memorial area make the most sense at this point.
Here's another point of view. This person feels that the era of corporate "clustering" is ending due to 9/11 and other factors - -
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110002151
A link to breakdown of destroyed/damaged WTC office space - -
http://www.TenantWise.com/wtc_damage.asp
(The real question is does NYC need to replace all of the 13 million square feet of office space destroyed in the terrorist attacks of last year.)
NYC doesn't need to do anything. Developers need to build what the markeplace wants. Maybe it's joint living-working space for entrepreners. Maybe it's small corporate offices and hotel rooms, for companies elsewhere that want a New York presence. Maybe its meeting spaces for companies spread around the region, including those working at home, who want a central location for meetings.
As long as they pay full taxes and get no subsidies, I don't care.
To complete the proposal, I suggest the abandonment of all parks under five acres, the permanent closure of all local library branches, the end of all bus service between 1 a.m. and 5 a.m., and the permanent end of all art and music instruction in NYC's public schools.
That's probably going to happen anyway.
As much as I hate to agree with Rudi since I hate his guts I do have to agree with him on this one issue. Last month on my cross-country trip we stopped at the Oklahoma City Memorial and I thought it was very tasteful and beautiful. The whole area was made into a memorial, not just the building site. The area that used to be the street where McVeigh drove the truck was made into a shallow reflecting pool that actually looked like a mirror. The area where the building stood was filled with chairs, each one a memorial to each victim. There was also a museum which we didn't go into and other memorials. I'm sure the government could have rebuilt the building but I think the memorial will make people always remember.
I think it would be fitting for something like that for the Trade Center.
>>> The area where the building stood was filled with chairs, each one a memorial to each victim. <<<
That was a federal building, already off the tax rolls, so a memorial park in place of the building was not so hard to do. In downtown New York leaving the area as a park would take quite a lot of real estate off the tax rolls.
Tom
That may not have been the case. Since the Eisenhower era the Federal government has had the policy of having a private developer build the building and the government them leases it for a good number of years.
This keeps the local government happy because the building stays on the tax rolls and the business community is happy because they get a large, stable work force.
The Federal Government got a black eye in the late forties when SSA bought a 98 acre parcel in Woodlawn, where SSA now has its headquarters. The parcel went off the tax rolls, but did consume local money for roads, water/sewer services, and increased local police. The plus side was the large, stable work force, but that took years to develope.
>>> That may not have been the case. Since the Eisenhower era the Federal government has had the policy of having a private developer build the building and the government them leases it for a good number of years. <<<
That is interesting. But still, in Oklahoma City there was far more open space than in lower Manhattan, so a memorial park is cheaper.
I do not know if the Federal buildings in Los Angeles are leased or not, but I do know they are not subject to the local fire codes, and have features that would not be allowed in a commercial building, the most obvious being public rooms (designed to hold large groups of people) where the exit doors open inward rather than outward.
Tom
That may work for Oklahoma City, but it will not work in New York. We are looking at an area of only 16 acres. 16 acres that are located in the bottom of a canyon, a hole created by the remaining buildings. There will be no light or reflecting pools, but only a puddle at the bottom of a hole.
The only possible memorial to this event, is to build again, if not to restore the towers as they were, then to restore to the site its place as a productive tower of freedom and enterprise. There needs to be a world class building on this site.
Elias
In that situation what they did was very fitting. Not to trivialize what happened in Oklahoma, but that building was NOT the WTC. Most of the country (forget the world) never even heard of that building before that day. That was not lower Manhattan, and not one of the most famous landmarks in the world.
Your approach would hurt a lot of people, Jeffrey. It would hurt the city, it would hurt the children of the city, and it would ensure that shattered families would not rebuild their lives.
As a police officer, you have been professionally trained to follow your head in situations where if you "followed your heart" you know that the outcome would be very bad. I'm confident that you can apply that logic here.
Guiliani wrote an op-ed piece in a context where he is no longer in charge of the city, no longer responsible for other people's lives. He's dealing with survivor guilt, and this is his therapy. Don't take him out of context.
So, given your arguement, most of Europe shoudln't have been rebuilt after WW2 because is was a giant cemetary. Same for all those Japanesse cities that we leveled with either nuclear or conventional fire, including Tokyo (more deadly than either A-bomb drop). The world is for the living, not the dead. If you thik otherwise go jump in a hole and cover yourself with dirt.
Good grief, I'm actually in agreement with you on something! Yes, we should build again - not an architectural monstrosity like what was there, but productive buildings in keeping with their surroundings. With all due respect to the lives that were lost at the hands of the terrorists, they are small in number in comparison to the millions who died in World War II or in other wars. Life must go on; we cannot think of what might have been but rather of what might be, else there will be no future for mankind.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I couldn't agree more. Hopefully it will be a beautiful building. Not necessarily exactly as before, but still something that can be seen from all over. Life must go on, while remembering what happened there. There will always be a scar in that spot, but leaving it totally empty, only leaves a scab that will turn into an ulcer that never fully heals. The terrorists win if an open wound is left at the site.
Also the new building would have better safety equipment. WTC failed in both bombings with the safety systems. Repeaters did not work, and no one should be bottlenecked in stairwells like what happened on 9/11. Stairwells were way too narrow for such a tall building. But that was the problem with the old design, it put an emphasis on office space not on evacuation conditions.
Any new design would definately have to be safer. Also I think a footbridge between the two towers (like the Patronas) would also be a good way of getting people around the complex.
NYC should have the tallest building in America, if we want NYC to be a leader for America. We have an opportunity to build something better than what was there. I saw we should go for it!
You are right about the safety factors involved in the design of the building, and I was shocked to see that there were only three narrow stairways for each tower.
On the otherhand there is no construction that can stand up to the events of 9-11-01. The Pentagon was of an entirely different construction, yet that colapsed too, and with much loss of life. I suspect that there was a greater loss of life in the pentagon than in the WTC if coralated to the number of occupants, floor space, and the speed of the destruction. The immediate impact droped the entire section of the pentagon. The Immediate impact did of course destroy the target floors of the WTC, but the building stood, and protected the rest of the occupants for many minutes.
True, Some were killed instantly, and others were trapped above the fire with no hope or posibility of escape, but a majority of those below the impact area did in fact escape.
There were some response errors:
1) EMS had no business entering the building: the scene was not safe.
2) Fire fighters had no business trying to go up the stairways: the building has adequate numbers of fire wardens on each floor to direct the evacuation, and all the FD did was to block the egress of people down those small stairways. Their own protocol states that this is to be the case.
Buildings of this nature (any building more that 100' tall) needs to have its own fire fighting plan, and probably also in the case of larger buildings, its own internal fire department.
Our town of Richardton, North Dakota has a population of 600 people, and we have 25-40 people on our fire department. They get called out once or twice a year.
A building of 50,000 people needs its own fire department. Normally consisting of building employees, they should be hyper trained in fire response and management, and have built in fire fighting aparatus near at hand.
Finally, for any fire that was withing the design specifications of the building, (and that included some pretty heavy scenerios) a vertical evacuation of two floors above the fire floor, and one floor below the fire floor is sufficient. The design and construction of the building would have protected them, and an evacuation of the entire building would not have been necessary. So to that extent, the stairways *were* adequate.
Hindsight would now seem to dictate otherwise. Larger stairways, enclosed in armoured matrerials might have allowed evacuations of the floors above the fire floor, but as was seen, this was an event far beyond any possible design capacities. A 500 pound bomb, or even a 2000 pound bomb would not have dropped those buildings: and a nuclear bomb would destroy any building. This event was somewhere in between.
Elias
You are right about the safety factors involved in the design of the building, and I was shocked to see that there were only three narrow stairways for each tower.
All three stairways were clustered relatively close to one another in the center of each tower. Had they been dispersed nearer the corners of the towers, it's likely that at least one would have remained open in the north tower and hundreds of people would have escaped.
Also they used "drywall" (gasp) to surround the stairwells. That was a stupid decision for such a tall building. Even most short buildings I've been in have stairwells of concrete.
Actually, those stairways *were* remote to each other, since they were on different faces of the building core. Unfortunately, all modern buildings have their exit stairways in the core. The older law buildings do have them along the outer perimiter.
You are correct, it is time to revisit this issue, but do examine the floor plan of these buildings. Chances are that people would never find or even be able to access such remote stairways. They would be locked up inside of somebody's office space, or if not that, equally well hidden from rapid access.
Each of the four corners of the core needs to have an exit stairway, and this exit stairway needs to be protected from fire and reasonable impact. How resonaible can you get. Two to Four inches of depeted uranium armour would likely have protected the stairways during this attack,but is this an appropriate construction for a big city office building? Would re-inforced concrete have been sufficient?
IMO the building was well designed, and would have protected its occupants against any forseen eventuality short of a war.
Elias
Well said. :-)
The site should forever memorialize the dead of September 11th. Build all you want--twin towers or otherwise--but not there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The best memorial for the dead would be two new towers. Grand engineering projects such as the towers symbolize the greatness that is this country. Whithout such feats of greatness the terrorists win.
Event memorials can be summed up in one word...DEAD. As the years go by and the memories and survivors and famlies of survivors die, a memorial park WTC will become dead space. It will become run down and neglected. Passed by by pedstrians who will be using the underground concourses that you know will be built under the site the park will become the home of skateboarders (like LOVE park in philly). Its monumental DEADNESS and lack of economic activity will have most LIVING people buying and eating their lunch in nearby food malls like the Winter Garden. Every 20-30 years the park will see some renewal and will have the blocks of granite or whatever sandblasted and politians will make plans that will increase the use of the site, but they will never overcome the DEATH that will forever permeiate it.
What do you expect people to do at a giant tragity memorial? Kids won't play there. People won't want to eat or recreate there because it will be either disrespectful or creepy. Have you ever seen the World War I memorial in Washington DC? Its deserted. When all the Vietnam vets die and their immediate familes die the Vietnam wall will become similarly vacated aside from the slack jawed tourists following the self guided foot tour.
Where would you rather be burried? Some place where when people even bother to show up they are glum and quiet? Or some place where thousands of people work and live around you and where above you two massive boxes of steel reach for the sky in a giant middle finger to terrorism?
Thank you Jersey Mike!
"The site should forever memorialize the dead of September 11th. "
And it can do so even with buildings on it.
"Build all you want--twin towers or otherwise--but not there..."
A closed-minded approach which deliberately ignores a lot of very positive, constructive, helpful possibilities. Open your mind and your heart, Kevin.
You just made a lot of sense, Jersey Mike - though I had hoped you would say it more gently.
Kevin, for the most part I agree with your view (and the former Mayor's).
I have somewhat of a compromise: build smaller office towers BUT on the perimeter of the site. The actual former twin towers site should be dedicated to a memorial park (benches for meditation and a large miniature of the former World Trade Center site -- perhaps several stories tall, with lighting).
I think instead of a "perimeter" set-up, what the city really needs to do is to decide what they want to do between West and Greenwich streets and from Greenwhich to Church.
The footprints of WTC 1 and 2 both lie to the West of Greenwich. A memorial park in that area, which takes up about nine of the 16 acres, would be appropriate. But if the area east of Greenwhich to Church is also included in that, and nothing is built on the site, then you start to call into question much of a rationale for some of the grandiose transit hub plans down there. Why build that big a hub under that site, if all the job are gone? It's fine to rebuild PATH in the area -- they have no other downtown station and relocating it further east than Church would be a major ordeal -- but the other stops near around the WTC site will be more for tourists than workers from then on (and the bulk of downtown jobs will end up being east of Nassau Street, where, of course, there's only one subway, the IRT 2/3).
Tying together all of the downtown lines with transfer tunnels, and running a tunnel from the World Financial Center to Broadway is fine, but the underground pedestrian shopping area that has been discussed for the site also gets called into question if the entire site becomes a memorial. If there are no buildings above (at least east of Greenwich where do all the cutsomers come from? East of Broadway? Batter Park City? And would people want to be doing their shopping beneath a piece of land Giuliani called "a cemetery" in Time?
I'm still awaiting Larry Silverstein's reaction to all this, since he has a few billion tied up in the final decision. But I know if his 7 WTC building ends up as the only thing rebuilt on the site, they can take some of that $4.5 billion in downtown transit hub funds and put it into something more useful, like the Second Ave. subway, because there aren't going to be nearly enough people working right in that area to justify the plans they're discussing.
Let's make the entire WTC site a huge memorial. Lats make the south shore of Long Island a huge memorial to the victims of TWA #800. Let's turn the Rockaways into a huge memorial to the victims of Flight #587. While we're at it, lets turn pennsylvania into a real memorial for flight #93 victims and for the USAir Boing 737 that crashed there about 8 years ago. Then we can make the 14th St bridge in DC a national shrine.
Enough is enough. I agree that the families of the real heros that dies trying to rescue the victims of the WTC deserve a memorial but can someone explain to me how the victims of that criminal act all became heros.
(Enough is enough. I agree that the families of the real heros that dies trying to rescue the victims of the WTC deserve a memorial but can someone explain to me how the victims of that criminal act all became heros.)
You make a good point -- the word "hero" has been overused. A hero is someone who makes a sacrifice -- or at least takes a substantial risk -- on behalf of someone else. A "hero" is different than a "victim" or even a "survivor." There were heros on Sept. 11th, but also victims and survivors.
The families of the victims suffered a terrible loss. I think that those opposed to building on the site need to recognize that they are demanding that the rest of us continue to suffer as well.
Bravo! A great post.
You make a good point -- the word "hero" has been overused. A hero is someone who makes a sacrifice -- or at least takes a substantial risk -- on behalf of someone else. A "hero" is different than a "victim" or even a "survivor." There were heros on Sept. 11th, but also victims and survivors.
Not to sound churlish or anything, but I'd be cautious about bestowing the "hero" title on all of the firefighters and police officers who responded. No one on the face of the Earth had any inkling just how dangerous the response would be, as no one could anticipate that the towers would fall. It's doubtful whether there would have been many police or fire deaths had the towers remained standing.
Amen. I didn't personally know anyone who perished in the terrorist attack on our city. However, the brother of Ronald Bucca (One of the true hero's as reported in recent news reports) does work for me. Ron Bucca was the fire marshall was cited as one of two heros who went in and made it up to the 78th floor before the tower collapsed. His was a truely heroic act. One I could not see myself attempting even if I could run up 78 flights of stairs. To compare his bravery with with the acts of desperation on those who sought only to escape is a travesty. For the relatives of those who tried but could not escape to be suddenly empowered to the point where they will have a say and impact on the economic and social revival of the Battery park area is nothing more than another politically correct joke on the rest of us.
He doesn't, and you took him out of context.
He doesn't know that the office space can be made up elsewhere, because it really can't.
On the other hand, the new design competition for the site will probably balance living space with office space with cultural ande retail space, with a nicely done memorial. There is room enough for eveybody's concerns to be addressed.
No one has the unilateral right to worsen the damage done on 9/11/2002 by making sure people can't pursue their livelihoods in the nerve center of the region.
The best homage we can pay the dead, and the way we show them respect, is by allowing lower Manhattan to be reborn and by continuing the vital work they were pursuing.
I understand where you're coming from, Kevin, but your approach would seriously hurt a lot of living people without bringing anybody back from the dead. That is unacceptable. Counseling, support groups, and pursuing meaningful work for yourself while allowing others to rebuild their lives is an appropriate way to deal with this.
He also said "A soaring structure should dominate the site, taking its place along New York City's wonderful skyline."
I have to say one thing: I don't respect dead bodies nor the cemeteries that house them. If it were up to me, all cemeteries would be eligible for redevelopment. Cemeteries are a MONUMENTAL (no pun intended) waste of space.
As for what I would want to happen to my body when I die, I really don't give a rats ass. My mind is what makes me the individual that I am, without it, my body is a lump of meat as worthless as shares of Enron stock.
g: I don't respect dead bodies nor the cemeteries that house them. If it were up to me, all cemeteries would be eligible for redevelopment. Cemeteries are a MONUMENTAL (no pun intended) waste of space.
As for what I would want to happen to my body when I die, I really don't give a rats ass. My mind is what makes me the individual that I am, without it, my body is a lump of meat as worthless as shares of Enron stock."
I have to say that I agree with you. My parents have determined to donate their remains to a medical school, and have to wish to be burried anywhere.
I can see country cemeteries but in places like that the families living there are the same as the families burried there. Such is not the case inthe great New York cemetries.
But I do not believe that there is any way to change or redevelop these cemeteries.
OTH: the WTC site is not a cemetary. All remains human, and artifactual have been removed. Let the site be rebuilt!
Elias
"My parents have determined to donate their remains to a medical school, and have to wish to be burried anywhere."
Your parents' wish is a noble and supremely unselfish gesture. Future generations will benefit from their kindness.
"I have to say one thing: I don't respect dead bodies nor the cemeteries that house them. If it were up to me, all cemeteries would be eligible for redevelopment. Cemeteries are a MONUMENTAL (no pun intended) waste of space. "
In Britain they are actually doing that. Certain "green cemetaries are accepting softwood or cardboard containers with unembalmed bodies after funerals. When the cemetary is full, it is converted to a nature preserve for the benefit of the public. The bodies become fertilizer.
If they want to turn it into a cemetery, I will sue.
And if they want to build that 42nd Street trolley, I will sue there too.
The following came off washingtonpost.com. It is part of the Dr. Gridlock column for Sunday.
Metro Explains Why Trains Can Lurch
By Ron Shaffer
Sunday, September 1, 2002; Page C02
Dear Dr. Gridlock:
Are Metro trains driven by computer or a live driver? Whichever, sometimes the trains move like they were piloted by 16-year-old boys who just got their license.
They go from station to station with maximum acceleration followed by maximum braking, and when they arrive, they stop, restart with a jerk and stop again 10 feet from where they were, with another jerk.
One such performance knocked me clear off my feet when I was ready to get off. I'm afraid to take the Metro.
Johanna Stein
Cheverly
It doesn't seem to me that Metro riders should be routinely knocked off their feet while riding the rails. I'm interested in whether others consider this a problem and whether riders on other subway systems encounter the same phenomenon.
Metro spokeswoman Lisa Farbstein responds:
"Metrorail trains are automatically operated, and it is rare that they are operated manually.
"As you know, most of our trains operate very smoothly; however, at times a train may lurch or proceed with a sudden, abrupt movement. This could happen for a number of reasons, such as:
"1. There could be a mechanical situation that needs to be addressed;
"2. The brakes may need to be adjusted;
"3. The train may be operated manually, or
"4. Due to work on the tracks, there may be a temporary speed restriction that necessitates a train slowing."
How about this: Next time a lurching train knocks people to the floor, let me know the train number, car number, direction, the line, the time and the date, and I'll ask Metro for an explanation.
END (full column on washingtonpost.com)
From what I know, the train's ATO equipment detects the stop marker in the station for each number of cars (2, 4, 6, or 8), then sees how many cars the train has (entered in the train identity section of the console), calculates the distance between where the train is and the stop marker, and applies braking pressure as necessary. Sometimes, it realizes that the train is slowing down too much or not enough and has to change the application. Also, depending on the time of day, if the cab signals change from 59 to 35 because of a train stopped in a station, the train is going to slow down very abruptly. I am sure Ms. Stein would rather have an abrupt slow down as opposed to rear ending the train in front of hers. I will admit, the Rohr cars seem to be jerkier than the Bredas, perhaps because of their age. I am assuming Ms. Stein rides the Orange Line. As of late, there are more Rohrs on the Red Line than on the Blue/Orange lines.
Anyone suggest we send this all into the doctor and see what he says?
I read that article too. I don't ever remember being on a train that lurched so much as to feel that I was going to be knocked over. Sounds like she was embellishing things to have her article placed in the paper. Maybe if she was hanging on to the hold bars on either the backs of the seats, or most likely where this ditz was, at the poles by the doors which block everyone's entry and exit into the car, she wouldn't have fallen and go boom.
I prefer lurching rather than a collision.
Some of the T/Os really aren't that great but most are OK. She should go to NYC and see what happens there. I would say that at least once every time I am in the city I get one T/O who has some really lurchy stops. I am sure if someone tried to explain how it all worked to her, maybe she would understand just a little more, but it wouldn't matter.
You use the Orange Line more than I do, what are the numbers of Rohrs out there? It seems at the time I go in the morning, every train on the Red Line in my direction is a Rohr. I may have gotten a Breda about 5 times from last September until June.
That's the problem with a lot of metro riders, unfortunately. Some are so spoiled and are in that 'me first' mentality, that the least bit of inconvenience is a national emergency. You're right, they should try some of the other systems that are more crowded, etc. and see how good they really have it here. Run the metro system 24 hours a day and it would be great.
On weekends, definitely there are mainly Bredas on the Orange. During the week, it seems that there are a lot of Rohrs on there, but there are a number of Bredas that appear. I dont want to say its 50/50, but the chances of getting a Breda trainset is more common than Rohr. I see a lot of Rohrs on the Blue/Yellow lines as well. I noticed the high amount of Rohrs on the Red line as well, even on late weekend nights.
i do not understand y it matters what time of day different types run because i dont thik wmata pays attention to type
they care more about train numbers and signals than manufacturers
Since the Rohr cars are almost 30 years old and the Breda cars are a lot newer and that weekend and weeknighs the trains run much less frequently, why not let the older trains catch a break and put the newer ones on. Thats what I meant by seeing the older ones a lot on weekends, especially late at night. I don't care what the train is as long as it gets me to where I'm going. I don't take it as much as I used to.
Rohrs on the Yellow? I have seen those but it is pretty rare. The only thing that is rarer is seeing a Rohr on the Green Line. I think a few Rohrs are at Alexandria but Greenbelt is only Breda and CAF. Actually, the last time I saw a Rohr on the Green Line was more recent than when I saw one on Yellow, but I don't spend too much time on those lines. The Yellow was all Breda yesterday from what I saw.
Once, I got on a 6 car Green Line train with two Rohrs on each end and a Breda set sandwiched in between. Talk about strange!
Although WMATA hasn't really tried grouping cars together for many years, I think they are about to start again. Here is what I think is going on right now.
1000s-Concentrated on Red and Orange Lines, some at Alexandria for Blue
2000s-Concentrated at Alexandria and Greenbelt
3000s-Scattered system wide
4000s-Concentrated at Alexandria and a significant number at Greenbelt, a few are at the other yards
5000s-All at Greenbelt and all are going there until further notice. I think the overflow goes to the Red Line and in turn, overflow of Bredas/Rohrs goes to the Orange. Finally, the Blue gets whatever is left of the older cars.
6000s-On order but these have been earmarked for the Blue Line for the Largo extension.
If WMATA wanted to make the yards all have only one type of car, I would have the 5000s at Greenbelt and the 1000s at Alexandria. Yellow would be all Rohr (I have reason to believe it has the fewest passengers) and the Blue Line would get the leftover Rohrs and either the 2000 or 4000 series Bredas (not all of either series if fewer than 1000 are needed). The remaining Bredas would be for the Red and Orange Lines. The only problem with this is the Rohr seating layout isn't the best for suitcases. One could also concentrate the Rohrs on the Red Line, which seems to be what is going on now, since the Red Line has twice the capacity of the other lines.
I see the Rohr's on the Yellow from time to time and once in a great while on the Green, but that is very few and far between. I was on a Rohr tonight on the Red Line from White Flint to Metro Center and saw a few pass by on the other side headed to Shady Grove. The Orange was running mostly Bredas. I didn't see any Blue Line trains. The Red Line also had a lot of the 2000 series Bredas. The only line I've never seen a 2000 is the Orange Line.
I guess as more of the 5000 series CAF's are accepted and placed in to service, the Bredas will be scattered across the other lines as well. I was on a 31xx Breda earlier on the Red and saw a few on the other side. Today was a lame day for transit watching being that it was all Sunday scheduled service. Very crowded though.
I got car 4000 this morning on the Red Line. The train in front of mine I think was a Rohr, I could hear the AC motors from quite a ways away. I also think the train behind mine was a Rohr, but I didn't really look (I get off at an above ground station). The trains I saw heading in the other direction were a mix.
I think the T/Os changed schedules again. I had a different person on my train this morning and one of the ones who used to be on one of my 4 daily trains was heading in the other direction when I got on.
I got car 4000 this morning on the Red Line. The train in front of mine I think was a Rohr, I could hear the AC motors from quite a ways away. I also think the train behind mine was a Rohr, but I didn't really look (I get off at an above ground station). The trains I saw heading in the other direction were a mix.
I think the T/Os changed schedules again. I had a different person on my train this morning and one of the ones who used to be on one of my 4 daily trains was heading in the other direction when I got on.
I forgot to add, 4000 did have some of the same lurches that the Rohr cars have when we stopped. I highly doubt the person who wrote that letter to Dr. Gridlock takes the Red Line to Silver Spring or Grosvenor. Whenever the switch is set there, it is always a rough stop. Now she could be refering to riding through D&G Junction or Rosslyn, probably the former.
The Orange Line constantly has to move up when it enters Court House heading towards Vienna. I don't know if the computer is thinking that it is a four car train instead of a 6 or what may be the case, but almost all the times we have to pull up almost a car length.
The junction at Rosslyn seems pretty smooth, though, considering its switching at a pretty fast clip. The Orange Line switch is bumpier since its taking a sharper curve than the blue line, which doesn't curve until after its been in the tunnel for awhile.
I think people just like to get people at metro in trouble!! Too bad she couldn't have provided more detail like the line she was on, the station she got off, the time, the train number. I just yawned when reading her diatribe.
Good old Ms Johnson from the WMATA public affairs office needs to be in this discussion with "Dr Gridlock" (Wash Post)
I haven't heard Ms. Johnson quoted for some time but I think she is still with them. I met her once, she is a really nice person.
WAMTA had an Assistant General Manger Rail (later promoted to deputy general manager) who wouldn't let the operators run the trains on manual mode.
On one wintry night with wet rails, a red line train overshot the last stop on the red line (Shady Grove) and crashed into a parked train. The operator was killed and passengers were hurt. Prior to the last stop, trains were overrunning stations on the above ground portions.
One of the outcomes of the collision was that operators were told to operate in the manual mode at least once a week in case of emergencies. I don't know if this rule is still observed.
Michael
Washington, DC
That was different. The management in this case did not feel that it was in the best interest of the passengers' safety to run manually under the conditions. This has nothing to do with the issue we were discussing, lurches when the trains stop.
WMATA trains are in automatic mode while in revenue service except:
When there are problems with the relays or ATO equipment either trackside or on board the train
When the train is in restricted mode (manual, no more than 15 MPH, cab signals at 0) in order to platform at a station when the cab signal reads 0 due to another train in front of it and the train is not fully in the station or just outside the station
Under special circumstances such as icy weather when permission is requested and granted from the OCC
I do not work for WMATA but these appear to be the policies.
I don't know if anyone else has a problem with this, but I regularly have to reboot Navigator whenever in Subtalk. The page is apparently too much for my browser. I have Navigator using 20MB RAM as it is. Hopefully, when I install my new G4 in a few weeks, the problem will be moot...that baby has 512MB of RAM to play with.
Till then, if anyone has any suggestions...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Have you tryed putting the forum to Display messages that were posted within a day? Maybe that will change it.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Have you tried using IE? It could work better.
Arti
That's strange. IE eventually came up with something about my cookies years ago and wouldn't let me view the page. Something along the lines I hadn't viewed the page recently enough. I switched over to NS and haven't had the issue since. Never had speed related issues though...
I've had a number of problems too. They appear to come from two sources: one, the Amazon banner, and two, something that is causing multiple cookies to be stored. Every once in a while I clear the cache, quit, and restart, and that seems to settle it for a while at least.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For all the bitching people do about Microsoft products, Netscape 4 was the last decent non-MS browser. Time Warner even tells their employees that they don't have to use it, and it is quite telling that AOL's interface is still based on IE.
-Hank
Maybe it was the last decent Netscape browser. I use nothing but Opera except for the occasional buggy web page that I absolutely must see.
what version of netscape do you have ?
i did not like #6 it was horrible deleted it big time !!!
do you use internet explorer ??
what version of netscape do you have ?
i did not like #6 it was horrible deleted it big time !!!
You're not alone in thinking Netscape 6 was rubbish. I used Netscape until 3 days after getting Netscape 6.
Any pictures????
No. I was not in Fort Worth when this last trip happen. I have to search the web in the next three weeks to find any.
Has anyone tried to log onto SEPTA's website this afternoon? If so, are you getting the same thing I'm getting? Each time I tried to log on, it would seem to take forever for the page to load, then I would get the "Page Cannot Be Displayed" screen. I have cable Internet connection, so I'm assuming that it's not a problem with my computer or connection. I'm trying to get a copy of the R5 commuter rail schedule, and schedules of buses from 69th Street that serve the Narberth area.
Same thinf for me, "page cannot be displayed". I just got a new computer , so I don't think it's me.
Chuck Greene
I got the same result this morning. The SEPTA website is observing Labor Day by going on strike.
That must have been it. It's up today. Didn't bother to explore to see if the down time was for massive update.
I spent a few days in New York last week after my round trip cruise on the QE2 to England. Since I've ridden most of the subway routes and most of the Manhattan bus routes, I decided to go to some museums.
One of them was the Museum of the City of New York @5th Avenue and 103rd street. There is a photo exhibit on "The Last Days of Penn Station" by Aaron Rose.
The photographer snuck into the station during the demolition and shot away (his camera). The film sat in his camera for 3 decades before being developed, and now on display through October 6. Admission is $12.
Michael
Washington, DC
I saw this exhibit. It is great. But I think the film actually sat in his fridge, not in his camera :)
--Brian
Too bad they can't keep that exhibit up for a few more weeks.
What are the Requirements of being a Amtrak Engineer? I think I've asked this question before, but I had forgotten. I want this position when I get out of High School, so I can work the NEC or anything in the Eastern Part of the USA. I want to operate the Acela Express, the Phase V P42 & AEM-7 Locomotives. Thanks!
-AcelaExpress6250
Amtrak Modeling
Checked the MTA website today and they announced that the test will be O/C. Filing period will be from 5/7/03-5/27/03.
Testing
if any1 is bored post here
everyone is board, and they do post here. :P
Does anybody know if TA time is unified, ie all metrocard checkers and metrocard machines have the same time so no discrimination is given toward a metrocard? This excludes those new overhanging signs on some platforms that display the date and time since I've already seen those way too fast or too slow. And while I'm at it, is it also true that TA time is 2 minutes BEHIND real time to help people to not miss their bus/train? And then, are the bus/train schedules based on real time or TA time?
TA time seems to be the same as the time checks given on any of the news radio stations (within seconds). It also seems to be the same time that NYC DOT uses for the SI Ferry.
I know that LIRR used to have a public timetable (published- pick it up in the station) and an employee timetable.
I seem to recall that the employee timetable is a minute behind the public one. You have no complaint coming if you miss your train.
Elias
71/Continental has several clock displays around the various platforms.
While I haven't been there in about 2 years, it wasn't unusual to see
the various displays way off from one another. Particularly mind-boggling
was when two back-to-back displays were two minutes off.
That's what I mean and that's why I excluded those things. I originally thought they would announce a train coming on a track rather than just sit there, be dull, and make a usually useless announcement every once in a while.
>>> TA time seems to be the same as the time checks given on any of the news radio stations (within seconds) <<<
But the time displays are not synchronized, so it all depends on the accuracy of various timepieces. I remember how impressed I was with the Deutsches Bundesbahn the first time I rode it in the ‘60s. There were several clocks on the platforms of the stations. The second hands on every clock in a station marched ahead in unison every second, and if you started a stop watch at one station and rode to another, you would discover that clocks in the second station, right down to the second hand were synchronized with the first station.
Tom
That's something you would never see in Italy, where schedules are only suggestions.
The clocks aren't perfectly synchronized. I once boarded an M5 bus and then entered the subway at 33rd Street just barely under 2 hours and 18 minutes later (by a few minutes), yet I was charged a second fare. But that's what the 18 minutes is there for -- the TA only guarantees a free transfer within 2 hours.
So far as I've been able to tell the TA does not use synchronized time at its terminals. This lack was one of the reasons that the 30 tph test failed on the Flushing line last April. There are two rush hour terminals that are essentially inserting trains onto the tracks at random times. The requirement for delay free merges at Rawson St is that trains must be within 30 seconds of schedule. The clock in the Main St dispatcher's office does not have a seconds display - it's was also off by 33 seconds from NIST time on the test date.
NIST time?
NIST = National Institute of Standards and Technology. Formerly called the National Bureau of Standards.
We did this back then - there is a system sychronized clock (blue digital display w/ seconds) in every dispatcher's office. Whether YOU the passenger can see it is a different story. I can sync my watch at one terminal and still have it be accurate at the other end.
The turnstiles communicate with the TA mainframe to verify what time it is, so if the Station Computer is off by a specific number it re-sets itself to the mainframe time. Same system exists for Depot Computers, and therefore the fareboxes in the buses.
So, they all march to the same drummer, so long as he keeps the beep everything is just fine.
Huh???
I belive he is saying the turnstiles and and comptuers in the booths talk to the Station Computer who in turn connects to the MAINFRAME the TA uses. The Depot (Bus) computers sync with the fareboxes. The Depot comptuers talk to the TA mainframe. When they sync up they use the mainframe time. Now the Station Computer polls the turnstiles and booth PC's, they aren't connected 100% of the time, same with the fare boxes, they only update when servicee so there can be time slippage if you will but in theroy fare collection should all have the same time as the TA Mainframe.
RTO on the other hand it seems go by whatever the disptacher's watch is set to but I've heard Control call out the time just like WCBS does on the hour.
When you hear the time-tone's "bong!" at the top of the hour on WCBS, that's exact = NIST time. You can now buy clocks and watches that capture NIST time as broadcast from Earth-orbiting satellites. (I have one in my home broadcast studio, which is how I can "back-time" to the top-of-the-hour announcement on WCBS, which is triggered automatically at 59:10 past the hour.)
[back on topic]
Note that the WCBS time-tone "bong!" is not the same as neither the R-46's door-closing "bing" nor "bong."
Actually, the home and even wristwatch NIST clocks don't synch to satellites--they synch to WWVB from Fort Collins (on 60 kHz). I have one in my ham shack and it's great.
Another thing to note is that while WCBS' time is indeed dead-balls-accurate, some other stations are not. For example, WABC's top-o-the-hour time tones are run through the 7-ish second delay and actually sound around 00:0675 or so.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty, W2IRT
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Soon!
NIST Clocks run off of a very very accurate atomic clock.
In fact it is too accurate, or rather it is more accurate than the roatation of the earth. NIST must be periodoically adjusted against Naval Observatory time which measures earthly movement over months, but is not as precise as NIST time on a minute to minute basis.
It is all on the NIST web site, and very intersting too.
Elias
It's amazing how you can lock into WWVB 60 Kc....I do not remember the transmitter type or power level but I would not be surprised if it was 10 Kw or less. WWV 2.5/5/10/20/25 were all Technical Materiel Corp. GPT-10Ks run at about 3500 watts coming out of a 4CX10000B running AME.
Years ago before microprocessor borne clocks, there were several kits and devices to lock into major television network clocks through your color TV. The networks use Cesium or Rhubidium time bases for network syncronisation. Twenty dollar big number clock from Sams Club works so much better...TA clocks in my yard are three minutes fast!
I can run 1000 watts AME from a pair of boiled 572B/TTL160s on eighty into a Collins Radio tape dipole. I like power...it is ...nice.
CI Peter.....WB2 Subway General Tecnician.
There's a difference between precise interval timing (Cesium clock, for example) and precise synchronization with an external time reference like NIST. Generally, applications will require one or the other, not both. The TA is an example of needing synchronization and not interval timing (an error of up to a second is Ok).
If you want both, things get a bit more interesting. Here are pictures of one of my toys. This uses Cesium as a primary reference, and has two Rubidium secondary sources in case of failure of the primary. But it also has a GPS interface to provide wall time as well as interval time. It has a variety of outputs - the main ones are 1.544MHz pulses for network element timing and NTP for time synchronization.
With one of these, you can easily see how bad most broadcast stations are at providing accurate time information. Sorry, it isn't portable, so I'm not going to check the TA's various clocks 8-)
Cesium source:
Rubidium sources, GPS, timing and control:
Network timing and synch is voodo! Talking ppm. Pretty
amazing when T-1 clocks from completely different network
providers run together with almost no slip. Keeping TA clocks
synchronized at the level of precision required for running
trains is basically 1940s technology. All sorts of systems
tried over the years. With intranet connected PCs springing up
at dispatcher and ATD offices, you'd think NTP-accurate time
would be a no-brainer.
It's always fun to hear the time-beep come over the radio from Command Center. Eight guys all fumble for their watches in concert.
Know this stuff...built the equipment used for WWV. Problem is I work for TA now...no sync...intranet is restricted and limited linkage amonst sites...punch clocks must come from Staples.
I was always proud of the way my rubidium clock on my TV truck (with yellow and purple nuclear warning stickers on it) would keep fools off my truck. Ah, for the days before cheapa$$ frame synchronizers and chroma lock to a network where your 3.579545 was real. :)
3.5795452658.....crystal used to make a nice direct conversion receiver for W1AW code practice sessions on eighty meters. I'd zero beat the receiver against a color TV and W1AW would have an 800 cycle CW note when they went on the air! CI Peter is WB2SGT
Heh. Much easier for me, we just passed along burst and happy days. :)
Gotcha...serious stuff 3.5795452658 color bursts. My brain is still alive...still can pass the 'TA flashlight test.' Happiest days were when you could open up an FT-243 quartz crystal holder and polish the slab with BonAmi to bring it up in frequency...mom bitched because of the figure-eight engraved upon the kitchen mirror. Just found a NEC 1000 Kc reference used for TMC receiver time bases...may never find the pin outs. Never went to sleep early tonight...FOURTY shoe beam current collectors to check tonight. Sleeping in my car outside the yard unarmed.....is crazy. Sleeping in my car within the yard and waking up to hop tracks...is crazier! CI Peter
Heh. Coconut paste made for a nice tweakup for some International Crystal rocks as well. PLL's sure rained on THAT parade. Heh.
Even on an Intranet, it is possible to run NTP - either an internal source can be used, or the firewall(s) can permit NTP, at least between a well-known outside source and an internal NTP server.
The TA has tried a number of systems and apparently abandoned all of them. The older (non-LED) clocks at the 10-car marker can still be seen at places like 71st/Continental, but I haven't seen a working one in some time.
The fiber optic network that was put in for MetroCard was alleged to be able to support time and message displays (I think the multicolor LED-based signs started appearing about the same time) but I've never seen one of those signs doing anything useful - they either have the wrong time or a silly "Welcome to the MTA" message.
This isn't rocket science. Even using 1950's era "school clocks" with an hourly correction signal sent over the radio would suffice.
Interesting that you mention the 50's clocks. I saw the innards of one once...two or three tubes and a handful of parts...set itself on the hour...Western Union used them. CI peter
When I arrive at a local trolley museum I compair my Wendy's Snoopy give-a-way watch with Sparky time, because no matter what time it realy is we have to run by Sparky time < G >
Correct! : )
The clocks at the Abbey might not be right, but they are the once we go by. (Our master clock has a wooden pendelum that can be affected by humidity.)
Elias
Ooooo ... owwwww ... somebody's gonna be sweeping the carbarn for that one. :)
Here is another pip.' NIST time is what we used to call 'metrological' or 'lab time,' formerly available only on semi'sophisticated receivers with external loop antennas tuned to 60 Kc. What these receivers did was to provide an accurate time base to calibrate frequency counters and the like. Hams calibrate counters by 'zero beating' the 1 or 10 Mc. time base against a receiver picking up WWV...problem is that you cannot hear below say 100 cycles.
OLD TMC SBE-2 exciters with VFO had a neon bulb that would flash so you could really see the 'beat.'
GPS has its own time base which may be sync'd with NIST...it still is military. The time differential between the two is so miniscule to even consider...propagation and distance (speed of light) is automatically set by the system....the most important function of the GPS syncronus orbit satellites is to maintain time sync between themselves for accurate position measurements (and your 99 dollar GPS handheld displays correct time 24 hours a day sans being in basements while most of our WWVB receivers work only in 'dark hours.') CI Peter
Looking at the railfan window, I frequently see the sign GT 25, and then the yellow over S signal. If it is a car I'm in that I can see the speed through the door of the cab, I would find something like 18 or 19. Now I understand that running a red light can get a T/O fired, by why are T/O run the train at a speed so far below the guideline in order to clear the signal, especially when it is a 2-shot signal, ie if you miss the yellow-over-S, it isn't the end of the world, as you can just slow down for the next signal. I can understand that you wouldn't want to run the train at exactly the speed given, but I figure after passing a GT 25, a speed like 23 seems ideal. If you end up going into BIE after passing a red light, can't you just report the speed you were going at, especially with the R142/R143 which I've heard actually monitors what the T/O is doing. The timers to me seem to give the T/O a lot of "lee way" as long as they approach them correctly. And so I humbly ask: Why do T/Os tend to approach timers almost too cautiously, and many times have them clear far in front of them, especially when they are 2-shot ones?
First of all, the Motorman probably knows that the real signal time doesn't always reflect the GT speed displayed on the signal. Also, being an employee for the Authority for over twenty years, you learn not to attempt to defend yourself by stating that you were going under the prescribed speed. Your second question asks, "why not just slow down for the second signal if the first one doesn't clear to green as you pass it?" If you pass the first signal faster than the signal is set up to clear a penalty is placed on the second signal which will just about bring you to a screaching halt before it clears. A seasoned Motorman knows the idiosyncracies of the timer signals in a particular zone and adjusts his speed accordingly and thus creating a smooth ride through the entire timed area.
I hope this is of help to you.
"Also, being an employee for the Authority for over twenty years, you learn not to attempt to defend yourself by stating that you were going under the prescribed speed."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, I know a T/O who used this argument to his favor. He hit a home signal on an R-142, and the event recorder showed that the T/O was indeed doing 5 mph where the posted speed was "GT 10". Of course, he's "from the street", so that might be the reason they were so easy on him.
When I retired in 1991 the technology of aircraft black boxes had not reached the Transit Authority.
Can a grade timer trigger the emergency brakes if a train passes it at too great of speed?
#3 West End Jeff
Only if passed on red.
GT's don't measure speed, they measure TIME the train pass certain points (signals).
Wheel Detectors (WD) actualy measure speed of the train.
There is excellent discriptions of GT's and WD's here on nycsubway.org, look it up.
Grade Timers are very elegant, simple devices.
Of course, it would be nice if their timing was set up accurately.
Please stop this before David starts saying they are correctly set up again.
Affirmative
#3 West End Jeff
Who, me? When did I ever say they were accurate? What I said was that in the newer installations they're actually set for a clearing speed HIGHER than the posted speed. I also said they could slip from their settings, as attested to by "Jeff H."
David
That's true but the distance or time between two signal equates to the speed the signal clears at, hence, GT25 etc.
Only if the signal is at danger as you pass it. The next signal after the clear timer has a penalty placed on it if you pass it without it clearing to green and if you don't have your train under control and are unable to stop that signal will remain red and put you in emergency.
Is one of those idiosyncracies the fact that in the Canarise tube you can charge the signal and have it clear in your side window, and if so, why is that?
I hate to use the word every but... the stop arm comes down right before the signal clears on some signals it is very pronounced so if you are very aggressive you never see the red clear.
A logical explanation.
"If you pass the first signal faster than the signal is set up to clear a penalty is placed on the second signal which will just about bring you to a screaching halt before it clears."
Thank you. That answers a lot of mysteries about T/O behavior.
Two reasons:
1) 98% of the timers fail to clear at the posted speed. 5 mph below is a general rule of thumb. Ideally, a T/O should be able to see the yellow S timer change to green before he/she passes it.
2) Overrunning a signal can mean a significant financial hardship (i.e. no pay for 1 to 6 weeks). Railfans may think that it's a bummer to see these T/O's going slow, but for us this is SERIOUS stuff. The TA is NOT playing around!!! The TA will come down on a T/O extremely hard if he/she were to mess up.
I agree with you 100 %.
You know, some of these Railfans think us T/O's are playing a video game that they get to watch for $1.50.
Exactly. I can understand that a railfan may be disheartened by a lack of speed (sometimes I am too), but railfans out there need to understand that there are serious ramifications that can result if one screws up.
It's not like the 1970's where you could hit a homeball and get a warning. Do it again and get maybe 3 days in the street. Now it's heavy time being doled out by Jay St. And if you're brand new (off the street) and hit a homeball, you'll probably be unemployed by the end of the day.
FWIW, if you hit a homeball in the 70's and didn't have a car inspector to back you up that there were "mechanical difficulties" they'd throw the book at you then too. It's just that with so many bad orders in revenue service, you could usually prove that it wasn't your fault. The warning was "you'd better figure that in when you apply." But at minimum, you'd have a motor instructor under your bed at night for a few weeks to "regroove you" or you'd go on restrictions. Slapping Homey upside the head was still a bad thing, even then. :)
You're so wrong when you say, "And if you're brand new (off the street) and hit a homeball, you'll probably be unemployed by the end of the day". In fact, the very opposite is true. That's why there's so much animosity towards us from some of the veterans.
I came out in a class of about 54, and at least 12 of my classmates have hit a homeball. One guy hit one leaving E.180 on M track last week. He's on the platform and I expect him to be on the road within two to three weeks.
Another guy hit an automatic during his first week out. A few weeks later, he hit a homeball entering E.180. He was put back in service, without even being retrained. And these examples are just the tip of the iceburg. This is why I sometimes have to listen to angry veterans who complain about the discipline they or their co-workers have received while "off the street" T/O's are allowed to hit Homeballs without even a day in the street.
And when it comes to the Canarsie line, we railfans are absolutely right!
5? TSS slick Joey from school car had us doing 7-8 lower and letting it clear to green for sure.
Maybe 5 less for GT 15's.
That is one bet I would not like to make.
Some things never change ... and yes, your madman Joey was reading from the book. I've confessed often to being TIMID on the road, when you were about to get twitchy passing a timer, you'd end up doing a literal "brick wall" stop. Something to be avoided at all costs since the TA-issued geese spatula was only good for a few uses. With those "Buster Brown shoes" clasping the wheels THESE days, I'd reduce speed more than I used to. If you were my follower, you'd want to get your fingers around my neck. :)
The timers themselves are not super-accurate. Maybe +/- 10 %.
Not only is there some variance where mechanical timers are used,
but differing track relay response times and imprecision in
calibrating the timer can throw it off. It can vary from day
to day. The speedometers themselves are not very accurate,
I'd say +/- 2 MPH. Add those together and 5 MPH is a conservative
speed.
I can attest to how strict they are on T/O's who hit signals
2 weeks no pay and a demotion.
I noticed in an earlier post that WMATAOAGH(hopefully i got that right w/o spell checking) mentioned a new batch of 6000 series cars slated to run on the blue line. Has metro started accepting bids from rail car manufacturers or are they the second batch of CAF cars that metro has previously ordered?
Alstrom. In about four years to arrive on property.
Alstom got it (this should be interesting). It is 64 cars (minimum needed for Largo extension) with an option for up to 120 more (to start making 8 car trains again). Options on MetroRail cars do not get new series numbers. If WMATA decides to order another set after 6062 and 6063 (remember, the first car will be 6000 unless WMATA decides to change their numbering system), they will get numbered 6064 and 6065 and so on. The option on the CAF cars is still numbered in the 5000 series.
Beautiful mint condition stock certificate - eBay 1376534246; auction closes in a few hours.
Yabba, Dabba, Doo...
Hey Dougie (heh heh)
Whoopie Goldie-bong-doggy-do-dah also.
They dont remember the real BMT as the "BMT" - and the BRT is before ALL our time (1898 to 1918) and Kings County Elevated RR ---ummmm, ahhh, lessee --think it died and was taken over by BRT in 1899 or so, yeah, mon, just around the corner from yesterday (heh)--of our grandparents' parents days !!
Yepper, real valuabe stock certificates -- hope they sell --- most of us dont remember the KCERR too well, now, do we? Hey, when yo coming over t' my place..been a while--or have you been following our
heavy daily nostalgic flow lately?
Regards - Unca Joe
NYCTM Group
BMT El gate Motor Car # 620 leads a BMT El local train to a station stop somewhere on an EL in the Bronx----ooops, ---IN BROOKLYN (heh heh)
Hey, Unca Joe! I know I've strayed from the flock....but I'll be back. Actually, I was over at the OGR site last night, but I didn't find the need to post. You did quite well on your own explaining to the novices about why you think K-Line will not enter into the O-gauge subway arena...very good posts BTW....see you at your site shortly.
Hello Dougie----(burpppp)
Yes, I tried to guide those foamers there whose lips are too welded to that center 3rd rail - that because of the sound and control system differences
between K-Line & MTH (MTH being a system to its own and only self) - persons with MTH subway sets would find operation with a K-Line set (sound and control systems) balky and problematic, unless the K Line set ran on its own track with its own command and sound control controller base.
If any of the others like K-Line ---sharing Lionels sound and control TMCC system did subway sets (Ie: Weaver, Williams, Lionel) perhaps K Line might do one set. Aside from that I guess K-Line might feel its just too small a nitch for K Line being as MTH has already eaten up a lot of subway fan pesos $$$ with the already-produced and mostly sold-out 5 different sets, and add on sets -- and how many subway sets will the average "railroad layout" modeler buy after wanting maybe one or two sets for a small "representative-subway-line- on their predominately steam & diesel RR layouts ???
Would I like to see K-Line produce an O-Scale-Gauge aluminum IRT R-62 set, sure would !!! Maybe my prodding postings and such will "irk" them to take a shot (but I REALLY doubt it --heh )
Yeah, Doug, 3750 views-hits to my OGR Topic Forum after on 75 days since I started that thread (June 18) - so I must be doing something right there !!
It MUST be all the pictures I posted there !!!
Regards - Unca Joe
Here's another old BMT-ish Pic for you - and you were there to see it !! (Enjoyed the visit)
BMT Blue Bird Articulated 8001 seen at an EL Local Station in Brooklyn--Doug D is at the controls of the Blue Bird on the despised Cinestron Controller - fore-runner of the Joy Stick controller of today ! He would rather be in the cab of a wood Gate EL Car !!
Hey, Joe! I don't see an O-gauge Heypaul pressed up against the railfan window!!! ;)
If MTH keeps selling out while people still WANT sets and then doesn't spew out some more to satisfy pent up demand to EBay's benefit, maybe there IS something for K-Line to sell. It's not like these are great economic times. Vendors have been known to get hungry for anything they CAN move in times like this. Since MTH apparently won't, ya never know.
Sure wish someone would do subway cars in N gauge ...
MOOOOOOOOoooooo----HEY---Kevin---
THEY DID DO NY SUBWAY CARS IN N SCALE --REMEMBER WHEN I SENT YOU THE Website PHOTO AND MANUFACTURER LINKS---a few months ago...but YOU want EACH CAR for $3.95 each motorized and with paint and interiors and working lights inside and out...and thats only in YO DREAMS Homie---
Your favorite cars - the R-32 and R-62 cars WERE made in N scale ---but YOU need a job that allows a few extra pesos coming in--for your desired subway sets like everyone else has that buys 'em...and they do get sold out, you know, pretty quickly !!! (heh heh)--I think its time for you to get back to the radio broadcast $$$$ business again (heh)
(Kevin, I tried to not squeeze 'em too hard --but you are tough !!)
MOOOOOOooooo (OINK--er)
REGARDS - UNCA JOE !!!
I was looking at pictures of pre-GOH R-44s and R-46s, and it looks like the side destination signs had the Letter in the middle, not on one side like current side signs. Does anyone have a clear picture of this?
R-44 MU's had originally from the factory a bullet in the middle of the mylar roller curtain, and with terminals on either side.
R-46 MU's had originally from the factory a bullet on the end, in a more updated Arial font.
Yeah....I remember those R-46 signs....had the route letter on the left and the two terminals one above the other to the right. Tourists who didn't know any better sometimes got the impression that the two terminals were actually one destination, as there was nothing separating the two lines of print.
I saw R44 cars with the original R46 type rollsigns in the 1980's. Not all, but many.
R40-46 had this(actually i am not sure that the 46s ever had them), in the late 70s through the 80s they were replaced with signs similar to the R68s
The R-46 NEVER had a center bullet mylar roller curtain.
The R40-42-44 had this type of sign, with the route bullet in the middle. The R46 did not. It's original signs had the old color bullet on the left, which was displayed on a white square. Next to this the northern terminal was displayed on top, and the southern on the bottom. Inside, a strip map like the ones on the R142/143 could be seen (no lights though). These signs started to be replaced in 1984/5 with signs showing the bullet on an all black background, as well as showing the new 1979 colors, the "diamond" rush hour bullet as well as the new, single lettered routes. However, there were several R46 cars which kept their original rollsigns into 1987. They were gone by the time the N/R swapped Queens routes.
Here's a pic of the type of sign you are referring to on a new R42 (Beware Steve, it's the R10/42 abomination pic you hate):
Thanks for the picture. Anyone know why they switched the bullet to one side?
I remember those R-42 signs as well. They were still in use during the late 70s. I swallowed hard before looking at that pic.:) Lucky for me I never saw that lashup in person. I would have had a stroke.
By the 1980's, most, if not all R42's had cheap black & white side rollsigns. The slants got the colored ones like the R44/46's did.
I found some images of the R160s on the ALSTOM website. Is this what they are going to look like or is this the images of the R143s that they used.
Link: http://www.transport.alstom.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&inifile=futuretense.ini;futuretense_xcel.ini&c=at_article&cid=1027873683549&rid=996826515305&pid=996826515900
Rob
The exterior concept photo montage makes it look like they're dropping the cra off the GE building (I thought that was reserved for the R-142s if they have one more pull-apart...)
It is interesting that when you open the .doc file on the webpage, from the specs given it seems as if the bulk of the order appears to be designed to go to the Eastern Division, since the webpages states "85-4 car units and 64-5 car units," which translates into 32 10-car trains and 42 8-cars units with one spare 5-car unit, unless they decide to start running a whole bunch of nine-car trains on the IND and the BMT Southern Division.
"85-4 car units and 64-5 car units," which translates into 32 10-car trains and 42 8-cars units with one spare 5-car unit
That would be one spare 4-car unit. I was thinking that might be for da Franklin Shuttle, but on second thoughts that's a car too long or something.
That would mean the eastern division will be completely R143/160 by 2007. It would make sense that the facility which is now equipped to handle these new cars would get them first (ENY).
Those pics are R143's with the black removed. You can even see the outline of where the black used to be in those pics.
There seem to be a couple of inconsistencies in the Word document labeled "New York City metro characteristics," a file which contains the basic statistics of the new cars, cars destined for the B division if I'm not mistaken.
"Power supply : 780 VDC
Number of doors per side : 3 and 1 door at each end"
Can anyone explain this?
Dan
Number of doors per side : 3 and 1 door at each end
It means you can pass through end doors. If you look at the design I think there's going to be a railfan window. It has the semi-blind look of the R11-42 cars. pray everyone. Pray.
.
Number of doors per side : 3 and 1 door at each end
It means you can pass through end doors.
Yes, but B division equipment has had 4 doors/side and one at each end since the R-1 and, unless the MTA is going to resurrect the patented interior design of the BMT Standards which allowed loading/unloading of passengers at the same rate as later R-type equipment, I doubt that the 3 doors/side figure is correct.
Dan
I think it would kind of suck for Alstom if they got it wrong and put only 3 door openings. Maybe they're looking at the 142's and thinking they're all the same in NY.
When a company builds a subway car they go through drawings to see what it should look like. The company(In this case Alstom and Kawasaki)co operates and draws a model they can agree on. Once they do that then they make a scale model which has to be exact to the model their going to build. Then they construct the actual car. It goes through a few test run then is introduced to general service. Thats how a train is born.
I don't think so. How do you explain the differences between the R142/R142As, R68/R68As, and R62/R62As?
>>I don't think so. How do you explain the differences between the R142/R142As, R68/R68As, and R62/R62As? <<
When I posted that I was tired. So let me correct myself. The companies only agree on the design the train should take and a few other features on the train. Besides that the R160 and R160A will most likely have a different engine and everything. Thats my story and Im stickin with it.
R160A? No such thing.
YET!
Just like the number "eleventybillion." -- from SNL Celebrity Jeopardy
--Brian
I hear the Staten Island Ferry may be replaced by smaller boats in overnight hours.
So all of a sudden, I have this desire to ride the ferry at 3AM and stand on the poop deck in the middle of New York Bay and take in the scene, before it's impossible to do it, and maybe snag a few pictures for
www.forgotten-ny.com
Question: how safe is it, is it mugger central at that hour?
Even taking the ferry in broad daylight is creepy. I saw a guy wearing brass knuckles last time I rode it. Always lots of loud ppl, gangstas, and beggars.
If you take it at 3am, bring a few 6 foot bodyguards. :-0
You talking about the same ferry? I've taken the Staten Is Ferry many times, day and night, and never had a bad feeling, even in the days when crime in the subway was rampant. Last year I took my son to a number of Staten Island Yankee games and never was uneasy on the ferry. I was a little nervous actually on the subway to from the ferry to Penn Station at midnight with my son, but not on the boat. And I wouldn't even consider taking my son to Atlantic at that hour which is where I usually get the LIRR from the ferry.
So lets not discourage Kevin from taking his ride & his pictures.
Dont forget it's Qtraindash7. For him there's no safe place in NYC but perhaps a police station.
Arti
John, you're afraid of your own shadow. The SI ferry is perfectly safe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>...bring a few 6 foot bodyguards.<<<
But, you don't like tall people, remember.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey now, what is this about tall people?
I dunno Lou, he just doesn't like us. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Apparently, us tall people (6' and more) get laid more because we look more dangerous and short girls like that kind of stuff.
And this explains why my wife (5'0") married me (6'0")? All this time I thought it was my charm and good looks. 8-)
Which is why this 5'2 guy has to be hugging a pillow at night.
OK when I see short girls with tall guys I just feel like wrapping it.
Again, your height isn't the issue. It's social skills - and you can learn some. HINT: It'll help with the girls too.
I'm 6'8", wife is 5'3"... go figure..
BTW, my major problem in operating 6688 is the door stop for the cab door (opening door inward stop) smakes me right between the eyes if I stonewall.
Wow, you've never taken the ferry, have you? Your chances are better of electrocuting yourself in the shower than being a crime victim on the ferry.
-Hank
Great, thanks for telling him that, Hank. Now he'll never take a shower and smell up board :-)
I've been on the ferry, many many times. All I know is I see rowdy ppl everywhere and not many cops. And everytime the ferry pulls into Manhattan, some guys usually yell "welcome to New York City, watch your back cause it's dangerous". I'm not kidding, there are gangstas who go on there just to intimidate people.
Perhaps because I'm riding usually in opposite peak I see this?
Hey the ferry was going to STATEN ISLAND, you know where all those GANGSTERS hang out from the Mother And Fathers Italian Association.
I lived on Staten Island from High School until I got married, I have taken the Ferry at ALL HOURS and find it safe and pleasent.
Well, safe, anyway.
-Hank
Yeah Lou, but everyone is not 6'8" and suffer from disillusioned
paranoia. Besides, if he wants to ride the ferry, he can conjur
a SubTalk field trip and invite the 3/4 tonners of which I'm the
shortest at 6'3". >G< You think he would feel secure surrounded
by Big Lou from Brooklyn, BMT Man, Mr. RT, Stef & Sparky. :| )
Judging from the other responses and my own experiences on the Ferry (and your previous posts about riding the subway) the only thing that needs fixing is your level of social skills.
I just don't feel comfortable when there's a rough crowd around. Being 5'2, I don't think I'm being paranoid. Plus it's an undeniable fact that crime is on the rise in the city.
Lets just hope the subways remain fairly safe. It didn't help that people tried to beat me up in school. :-(
Crime isn't on the rise around the city. I don't hesitate to deny nonsense of the type you have sometimes posted.
There was an article in a Queens local newspaper about crime on the rise. They said it was because many police officers were leaving for better paying suburban jobs.
What will be next? T/O's fleeing to LIRR and Metro North???
The local trash throw-away papers rarely get it right. What they are referring to is probably a spike or two on Compstat reports. That isn't a rise in crime.
Cops are retiring, it's true. Want to sign up?
Your height is not at issue here. It's your attitude and how you deal with other people. Yes, I do think you show some very unreasonable fears.
Would taking a martial arts class help you? If you took it up as an avocation it might help you in terms of self-confidence (not to mention getting you used to dealing with other people in an atmosphere of respect).
Yeah maybe it would help. Perhaps it's because I grew up in an environment (school) which taught us that taller guys seem to rule.
I sure hope that taller guys don't also rule the career world!
I think height would matter least in train operator jobs, well perhaps there being short is a good thing. Anybody 6' or over would have trouble fitting into those redbird cabs.
well at least the sharks won't be able to fit in there! :-0
If there's one thing to be learned in "school", it's that nothing that is taught there is worthwhile information. Nothing. Not the curriculum and certainly not anything social. If you take the garbage that is spewed forth from teachers' and other peers' mouths as gospel, you will definately wind up in Bellevue or comitting suicide. Which prospect is worse I don't know.
All throughout my sentence in the "cerebrel laundromat" I despised the "jocks" and their "preppy" whores, but I never let them intimidate me - I let them do their thing and I did mine. I wasn't about to let them get in the way of my so-called "education" (i.e., getting good grades just so I could get the hell out as fast as I possibly could)
You have to hold your head high, be more secure about yourself and don't let "trends", "political correctness" and like crap intimidate you. If you are short and skinny (no offense intended), consider joining a gym or something.
Myself, I am a Costanza-type (short, stocky and ... well, my hair is fine! ;-)
I never had a serious girlfriend and I never got laid and I really don't give a shit.
Just remember - Life's a bitch then you die.
And that is my two cents.
Great advice, eh? ;-)
I also forgot to clarify - I meant "school" as elementary thru high.
College is an entirely different ballgame. It is much more realistic and user-friendly. I love college life because everybody is treated with dignity - not like sheeple. And college is much more accepting of those who do not conform to "popular" society.
Yeah I want to go to Nassau community college. The commute aint fun from up here in the boonies, and I'm still waiting for my financial aid.
Still waiting for handouts...
The financial aid system is supposed to be there for helping poorer people get a college education. Most jobs won't accept ppl without one.
My point is school started already you should have addressed your needs well before now.
At least you've realized that you're not going to get anywhere with a sheet of toilet paper (high school diploma).
Sorry to rant about height, it's a hard time of year for me I lost my Mom 2 years ago from Aug.31 and Sept.11TH is coming up.
Gosh I just can't seem to shake this depression I've had since Friday. I feel sick to my stomach. It hasn't helped that I haven't railfanned in awhile. If it wasn't for the damn usual laundry errands and other crap I'd be railfanning tomorrow. :-)
Maybe you should find a counselor to talk to. I'm not being sarcastic either, it could really help. A professional counselor will listen to what you have to say, will listen to your fears, what you're feeling and they'll help you deal with it and give you [professional] valuable tips and advice. Emotional trauma happens to everybody. Some can cope, others can't, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you don't seek counseling when and if you need it, you're only hurting yourself.
Why punish yourself? You don't have to live the rest of your life lonely and depressed.
Good advice. Sorry about your Mom, Qtraindash. Do you have siblings to spend time with?
No one really lives that close by. I do wish my family was closer but it seems everybody is involved too much in their own life to spend time with others.
Usually when I travel less I feel more depressed. With the "great weekend deluge" finally over I can get back to doing some traveling, and of course, railfanning. :-)
Thanks for your concern :-)
You're welcome.
I think when you start your college classes you'll find opportunities to mix it up with people.
My cousin is getting married in a couple of weeks. He's on the short side (because my uncle is short). He's marrying a cute professional lady with a lot on the ball. I bet you could meet somebody who's right for you when you start classes at Nassau. Be a gentleman, be classy about it, and who knows...
I already am in counseling.
Good for you. That's a great first step.
>>> I sure hope that taller guys don't also rule the career world! <<<
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but studies show a correlation between height and success in the business world. That being said, don't dwell on it and improve yourself to do the best you can do. There are always exceptions.
Tom
Oh damn! Well I now have a new fondness for the Redbirds. Their cabs don't like tall guys. :-)
They have been using the smaller boats overnight for years now... The John Noble and the Alice Austin. 2 decks and about half the length.
Kevin: Even if you ride the ALICE AUSTIN and the JOHN A NOBLE you can still stand outside and take pictures. Just go down to the main deck and out the doors.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Alice AUSTEN.
-Hank
Hank: Why lower case for the first name?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stay away, it's more dangerous than the South Bronx!
You typically can't ride an overnight ferry that has accessible outside deck space. They usually use one of the 1500-passenger boats on overnight runs; two indoor decks, crappy bus-station seats.
-Hank
>>You typically can't ride an overnight ferry that has accessible outside deck space. They usually use one of the 1500-passenger boats on overnight runs; two indoor decks, crappy
bus-station seats.<<
So, you're saying that riding outdoors is impossible on overnight runs?...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(I hear the Staten Island Ferry may be replaced by smaller boats in overnight hours.)
The big issue here is privitization -- the City wants to hire a private company to provide the service. In theory there is nothing to stop the City from buying a small boat. Then again, if NY Waterway's boats are idle at that hour, it could provide the service without a new boat.
I was once going to take a round trip out of Whitehall around 9:00 on a summer Saturday night, but have to admit I was intimidated by the large number of rowdy teenagers- many of whom were drinking out of paper bags, or beer cans and bottles in plain sight!
Most of the time there are some vagrants who take up a whole wooden seat, or guys who walk around either begging, playing music or trying to sell stuff. Usually if you pretend to be asleep or bury yourself in your newspaper, they won't bother you.
One Fourth of July, I observed a deckhand politely asking a man to put out his cigarette. The man reluctantly complied, and immediately lit up another as soon as the deckhand left. So there could be a perception of anarchy and lawlessness if you put your mind to it.
Not to add fuel to the fire, but I've been 6'1" since high school, and have been robbed a couple of times at that height: once in front of a bunch of people on a crowded train, and once on the empty LIRR Far Rockaway platform. The authorities to whom I reported these incidents had no sympathy: "Aw c'mon- a big guy like you shouldn't let those punks get you."
Well most robbers carry weapons so height does not always mean beinga ble to escape robbery. I'm more afraid of being beaten, since in general small guys are beat up more than big guys. The best thing to do, in the subway or elsewhere is to leave an area where some rowdies are handing out.
And if someone does try to mug you, yell or trigger your personal siren (I have one).
Unfortunately and sadly, there will always be people who will pick on others because they are different, whether it be height,race,etc. I just wish the prejudice would stop. :-)
You're not wrong, but try not to dwell on it so much...
Well most robbers carry weapons so height does not always mean being able to escape robbery. I'm more afraid of being beaten, since in general small guys are beat up more than big guys.
One tidbit I picked up when working in the criminal court system some years back is that the people most likely to be beaten (or worse) in jails and prisons are the huge buffed-up thugs. Smaller guys quickly learn to avoid confrontations whenever possible, while the macho-man thugs won't back down from a challenge. And one invariable rule of prison life is that no matter how big and strong you may be, there's always someone bigger and stronger.
I sort of suspect that things outside aren't all that different from things in prison, at least in this context.
"And one invariable rule of prison life is that no matter how big and strong you may be, there's always someone bigger and stronger."
Or three guys together who are bigger and stronger...
And if someone does try to mug you, yell or trigger your personal siren (I have one).
My god. Is this on a belt with turn signals?
I just wish the prejudice would stop. :-)
And it should stop beginning with you.
Do you think Bedford Park Blvd should be officially called 200th Street from Webster Avenue to Allerton Avenue?
Do you think Nereid Avenue should officially be called E 238 Street from corner of E 240 Street/Mclean Avenue and Webster Avenue/Bronx River Road to White Plains Road (as shown on old 1980s map in Pelham Bay Park Subway Station)?
Why is there no West 18th, West 26th or West 34th Street in Brooklyn?
Also there is a gap in numbers on Northern Blvd in Queens. E/B you cross 172nd, then Utopia Pkwy and then the next street is 189th. Due to the narrowing of the land as you go north to the TNB.
Yeah. Queens has a "folded" street number system in that area. It gets worse the farther north you go. There are also some street numbers missing in the area of Briarwood.
:-) Andrew
>>>Also there is a gap in numbers on Northern Blvd in Queens. E/B you cross 172nd, then Utopia Pkwy and then the next street is 189th. Due to the narrowing of the land as you go
north to the TNB.<<<
In East Flatbush/Canarsie there's also a big jump from East 59th to East 91st due to the street layout. The 60s and 70s can be found in Mill Basin slanting northwest and by the time the slanted streets reach East Flatbush, they're in the 90s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>>Why is there no West 18th, West 26th or West 34th Street in Brooklyn?<<<
That is an enduring mystery that has always fascinated me.
In Bay Ridge, 69th Street and 75th Street are named Bay Ridge Avenue and Parkway, but local denizens just use the numbers.
3rd Avenue extends into the Bronx...but street signs there invariably spell it out as Third Avenue.
There is a B Street in the Bronx and an Avenue B in Port Richmond. Neither is accompanied by an A Street or an Avenue A.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The reason for the "Third Avenue" in the Bronx as opposed to "3rd Avenue" in Manhattan was the NYC Language police trying to impress upon us the proper pronunciation of "toid." :)
The dead-end block of Hobart Ave south of Baisley Ave was once A St.
Edgewater Park in Throgs Neck has a 3 Avenue as well. It also has 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Avenues, plus some other numbers as well.
Nah.....the last thing we need to do is spend tax money on new street signs! :-)
In the Bronx's Kingsbridge Heights, if you're traveling north on Bailey or Heath Avenues, the sequence is as follows:
West 193rd Street
West Kingsbridge Road
West 229th Street
The West numbered streets start to pull away from the East numbered streets downtown where the Bronx starts. Of course, the Bronx and Manhattan street systems are one and the same. The further uptown, the bigger the gap. Similarly, driving on the Deegan Expressway, you pass exits for West 230th Street, Van Cortlandt Park South and East 233rd Street! This stretch is almost two miles!
Between Northern Boulevard and Kissena Corridor Park, Flushing generally shuns numbered north-south streets west of 147th- but the standard Queens address coordinates continue as usual. Anything on the block east of Main Street has the prefix 136-. A lot of people unfamiliar with the area look for 136th Street.
In southwest Long Island City, it's one long, uninterrupted block between 11th Street and 21st Street.
It's a long-standing personal pet peeve (six has always been my lucky number for some reason), but Queens planners seemed to have had an aversion to the number 66- fear of Satan, perhaps? You'll only find 66th Avenue in three relatively short stretches. The first two, in Rego Park and Forest Hills, probably date back to the thirties when those areas were developed. The third was part of a townhouse development built in Douglaston in the seventies. Where 66th Avenue should be positioned in Middle Village and Little Neck are Juniper Valley Road and Cullman Avenue respectively. But 65th and 67th Avenues run for generous stretches through Fresh Meadows and south Bayside. NO FAIR!
65th Avenue hasn't much to do in South Bayside/Oakland Gardens. In my neighborhood it's a one-block connector. 64th, 67th, and 69th are the Avenues that keep popping up in Eastern Queens, though rarely in that long a stretch.
Now 73rd Ave is pretty major (and in my neighborhood, it's one short block away from 69th Ave)
:-) Andrew
>>>>Now 73rd Ave is pretty major (and in my neighborhood, it's one short block away from 69th
Ave) <<<<
73rd Avenue follows the path of a 19th Century (and possibly earlier) road known as Black Stump Road.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>"In southwest Long Island City, it's one long, uninterrupted block between 11th Street and 21st Street."<<<
A better description of southwest Long Island City would be appreciated.
South of Queens Plaza South, there are 12th and 13th Street
in Long Island City. Go as far south as one street
north of 44th Drive. (Not sure of the numbered avenue, drive
or road). A portion of the Queensboro Bridge upper roadway covers
13th Street at QPS towards 43rd Avenue.
;| ) Sparky
There was a thread about missing streets.....How about extra streets to keep the numbering system straight.......If you go E/B on Queens Blvd from Rawson Street (33rd St). The streets run as follows
37th Street
38th Street
39th Street
39th PLACE
40th Street
41st Street etc......
I have a postcard (bought at Branford) of the #7 train (all white) with the NYC in the background.....I think it was taken from the roof of an apartment house on 39th Place.
>>>>I have a postcard (bought at Branford) of the #7 train (all white) with the NYC in the
background.....I think it was taken from the roof of an apartment house on 39th Place. <<
That might well be Newkirk special from a calendar...I know which one you mean...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>Between Northern Boulevard and Kissena Corridor Park, Flushing generally shuns
numbered north-south streets west of 147th- but the standard Queens address coordinates
continue as usual. Anything on the block east of Main Street has the prefix 136-. A lot of
people unfamiliar with the area look for 136th Street. <<<<
If it's weird Queens street numbering you want, look no further than tiny Walnut Street just north of Union Turnpike along 71st Avenue.
This street retains Queens' old street numbering system...before the days of the dashed numbers...but does so in a maddeningly confusing manner. It uses the old system and the new system for about half its one block length, with each system taking about one-half the block!
>>>>You'll only find 66th Avenue in three relatively short stretches. <<<
If it's the number 61 you like (you Roger Maris fans out there) 61st Avenue doesn't begin until Douglaston Parkway.66t Street enjoys a good run, though it is blocked by cemeteries.
Looks like the end of the Snediker Ave "el" is getting closer.
Today I rode the (L) (R-143 #8161) and found these two items of interest:
1) On the stretch between Atlantic and Bway Jct, the new steel ramp is in place and all that remains is for it to be painted and have tracks installed. I called it a ramp because you'll see graduated sctions to raise the grade of the new connection. The new northbound track has to cut across that open field to substitute for Snediker.
2) On the stretch between Atlantic and Sutter, the new northbound track, built on new steel, has track and third rails that go down to close to where the new connection will be. That signal case is still in the way, but should be removed for the connection to be successful.
If you haven't seen this, get there with your cameras and record this, because before you know it, bye bye Snediker !
Bill "Newkirk"
Right you are Bill! The way the work has progressed, and considering that everything related to track is done as panel work (so it can be dropped in place like an erector-set09, chances are the final connection will be in place over the course of one weekend. A shuttle bus service will probably be instituted during that closure for one weekend between Rockaway Parkway and B'way Junction.
I was in the "ground zero" area today to check on the BMT Cortlandt St station before the 9/15 reopening.
It was publicized that they are building a fence to make it easier for people to see the "ground zero". Well, there is a new station entrance for the southbound (N) & (R) in this new area. Currently, pedestrians have to walk in the street, protected by "Jersey" barriers,
I saw this through the protective netting and the entrance is all painted and ready to go. Later, I rode an (R) train north past Cortlandt. It seems this new entrance is where the old mall entrance used to be.
Check it out and you'll see what I mean.
Bill "Newkirk"
Which line do you think features the sharpest track curve(s)?
Here's a few candidates that I can think of, in no particular order. Feel free to add/correct. (Non-Revenue/Abandoned facilities are OK as long as they still exist - please, nothing about the Manhattan elevated or the destroyed Brooklyn elevateds.)
1) J/Z - Double curves between Cypress Hills and Crescent Street (my selection)
2) 1/9 - South Ferry Loop (and 5 - South Ferry Inner Loop)
3) 6 - City Hall loop
4) 2/3 - Double curves entering and leaving Park Place
5) 3 - Curve between 145th Street and 148th Street/Lenox Terminal
6) R - Curve on 11th Street cut
7) S - Malbone Street/Empire Blvd curve (is there still track there? Is it ever used?)
I'd go with the South Ferry Loop(s).
I'd say either:
the Cresent St/Cypress Hills curves on the J
Or the curve at Qieensboro Plaza going toward 45 Road on the 7.
When entering the Coney Island station from Culver or Brighton, there is a 90 degree turn just before the station.
My understanding is that the site of the Malbone St wreck is just before the Prospect Park station, where today's Franklin shuttle meets up with the Brighton line (Q).
That is where it is. The track is no longer used for revenue service (so that the S trains don't have to cross over the Brighton tracks more so than to avoid using the sharp curve) although non-revenue moves are sometimes made on that track.
As it has been pointed out somewhere, One day on the late 1960's a non-revenue (light) train tried to make the turn. It was going at the speed of 3MPH as it was supposed to do. And the train derailed and hit the wall in the same place as the train did back in 1918. This time there was no major damage and no loss of life.
I am aware of that. They still use it though. I think they would rather run the risk of a derailment rather than use the NB shuttle track and cross over the Brighton Lines. Now if it is late at night, it isn't as much of a problem but if they had to do a move during the day due to a stalled train, then they might have to.
Wasn't that the December 1974 derailment which damaged an R-32 beyond repair?
It might have been. I'm not too sure when the derailment was. I think the 1974 derailment was another event on the shuttle.
The track is available for revenue use, even though it's not used in everyday revenue service. It was used during a two-day GO last year, when the NB platform was closed for construction.
I'd say it would have to be on the IRT. They use 51-foot cars for a reason. One IRT candidate not on your list is the (7), two sharp curves between Hunterspoint and Queensboro Plaza.
:-) Andrew
That's very good logic. I'd have to agree that the sharpest curve would be on the IRT as well.
I've never ridden this part of the system, but what about the jug handle at 149-Grand Concourse?
Matt
Oi Vay! That's one helluva curve.
lol... then do we have a winner?
Matt
Between City Hall and Cortland Street ?
This I got from TA track people & and a Supt...The northern most track turning into the 240th st barn is the sharpest in the system.
This is off the Broadway El between 242 & 238 st stations..on the #1.
1) J/Z - Double curves between Cypress Hills and Crescent Street (my selection)
2) 1/9 - South Ferry Loop (and 5 - South Ferry Inner Loop)
3) 6 - City Hall loop
4) 2/3 - Double curves entering and leaving Park Place
5) 3 - Curve between 145th Street and 148th Street/Lenox Terminal
6) R - Curve on 11th Street cut
7) S - Malbone Street/Empire Blvd curve (is there still track there? Is it ever used?)
You have to reject Cypress Hills and Malbone Street because they can take 67' cars and the latter 75' cars. Malbone is still used occasionally.
Of operating locations (carbarn moves don't really ocunt) I would have to give at least honorable mention to South Ferry inner loop. That was some curve to ride.
Express track just south of Chambers St.
1/9 South Ferry Loop
N/R entering Cortlandt (an S curve there)
100% CORRECT!
That is probably true...I'm no track expert and the #5 car 6458 I worked on today had all eight wheels 38 X 0 and eight identical brakeshoes well within specification but when the #2 R142s go around the Concourse 149 loops a 'bad hair day' for brakes begins. When the T/O applies brakes on the curve to slow down and then releases, brake units on outside curve wheels start ticking away their slack adjusters. All in a days pay. CI Peter
Here is some data for some of the curve radii(sources are from aerial photographs unless otherwise stated):
Inner curve - Fulton St. turning to Crescent St. on J: 160'
Inner curve - Crescent St. turning to Jamaica Ave approaching Cypress Hills: 175'
Inner curve - LI City/Sunnyside Yards, on ramp from Hunters Point on 7: 230'
Inner curve - Approach to 45th Road on 7: 285'
Lower curve - Approach to Queensboro Plaza on 7: 175'
Inner curve - Leaving Queensboro Plaza turning onto Astoria Line: 210'
Northmost track at 240 St. Yard/Carbarn on 1: 90'
Southmost track at 240 St. Yard/Carbarn on 1: 125'
City Hall Loop: 125' (based on IRT Commemorative Book, "Interborough Rapid Transit", collection of Consolidated Edison Co. Library, Irving Place, NY.
I'll leave it to others to fill in the missing numbers.
160' radius for the Crescent St. curve is very sharp, as the minimum radius of the 67' cars is 125'.
How about the curves on the Canarsie line between Graham and Grand and between Montrose and Morgan?
The M makes a fairly tight curve also when it turns onto Broadway and into the Myrtle-Broadway station.
How about the double curve on the BMT Broadway just north of Cortlandt St. and just south of City Hall, directly under historic St. Paul's Chapel.
My apologies to anyone who also posted this, since I did not read all of the postings prior to writing this.
I second that Andy. That is the most vicious S curve I know of in the system. Naturally the holy slow R and the Slow Beach N use it.
Thanks, Q. Soon the W will experience this curve nights and weekends.
Don't forget the "jughandle" curve the 5 must traverse between 149th/GC and 138th St in the Bronx, as well as the curve just north of West Farms Sq. The West End curving off of 4th Ave is also a sharpie, as is the curve north of W8th on the Culver.
More data:
Inner curve off Broadway-Myrtle: 150' radius
Inner curve approach to West 8th Street, Culver: 250'
Inner curve approach to 9th Ave., West End: 250'
Inner curve approach to 4th Ave. subway, West End: 175'
Inner curve north of West Farms Sq., No. 2/5: 165'
Again, these were all taken from aerial photographs at 0.10 mile resolution and are accurate to within 5'. Obviously, I can't measure the subways!
For the elevated lines (revenue track), it looks like the winner is the Broadway-Myrtle connector at 150', with the Fulton-Crescent St. curve second at 160'. Both very sharp turns compared to 125' minimum radius requirement of the 67' and 75' cars. The sharpest curve measured, "in the open", so far, is the nothern most track of the 240 St. Yard at 90', but that is not revenue track.
How about the curves on the Canarsie Line either end of the section under Bushwick Avenue - What's the radius of those?
Speaking of sharp curves, tracks south of Dekalb Ave towards Atlantic Ave and Pacific Street are pretty tight with 60 and 75 footers. But the sharpest I know to date is not only a curve, but a switch. The Union Square crossovers on the Downtown local and express are sharp enough for me, ever since the Union Square derailment. Not to offend my love for the subway, but the sharpest S curves to date are on our fellow sister system, the PATH.
[7) S - Malbone Street/Empire Blvd curve (is there still track there? Is it ever used?)]
According to SelkirkTMO it's used by me whenever I decide to drive my 'land yacht' through the Malbone Tunnel...;)
Seriously though, yes there is still track there, BUT it is lightly used by (1) maintenance of way equipment or (2) when a Franklin R-68 set is going 'beddy bye' for a layup on the Southbound Brighton tracks just outside of Prospect Park station.
Geez, I'm surprised you didn't slap him around for calling it "Empire Blvd." Heh. You must be slipping in yer old age. :)
Somehow I knew you were gonna say dat!
Heh. What can I say? No for shame. Speaking of "no for shame," The 3/4 ton crew is no more. It's now a full ton. Mr Boucher sez so. :)
Dougie, I TOLD you not to have that fourth helping... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Branford won't be the same with FOUR stooges. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. :)
Why, soitanly.
Anyone seen some of the PATH's curves? It looks like the train is gonna slam the wall all too many times around those curves. Even the ones where the WTC station used to be.
Is it as sharp as the MBTA Red Line's turn onto Harvard Square station? It squeals and grunts and crawls at 5 mph or less.
From the Glossary:
Wheel Detector. Part of a system to enforce speed limits during diverging moves over selected switches. Wheel detectors time each axle of a passing train and will operate an automatic stop underneath the train if overspeed is detected.
Does this mean that it is timimg the distance of the two wheels on each axle? If not, and it is timing between axles, how does it differenciate between 60 foot cars, 67 footers, and 75 footers (not to mention 51 footers on work trains?)
good question
how do the standard signals know when the train is through?
(sorry-- this was meant to go with the previous post)
By a series of relays.
When the first wheel of the train passes over the insulated rail section where the signal is, the signal turns red, somewhere past where the signal is, the relay gets the indication that the train is completely past the signal and the stop arm goes up.
When the train gets a bit further and passes another section of insulated rail then the relay sends the indication to the one next to the signal to set the aspect to yellow and lower the stop arm.
Insulated rail - signified by faded red paint on the inside of the running rail on either side of the point where the two affected rails are joined. When the wheel passes over it, a circuit is completed.
That is a very simplified explanation. I'll leave it to others to go into more detail.
Don't forget the insutlated joint and the yellow paint on the third rail cover.
Wheel Detectors time EACH AXLE one at a time. There are two sets of sensor. Each set has is spaced I think it's four feet apart from each other. As one axle passes the first sensor it start the timer for that axle untill is get to the next sensor, this is then turn into speed by a computer. This happen to all the axles on the train. So there can be at least two axles being timed at the same time with the same set of sensor. If the train is going at or BELOW(alway below just to be safe) the third light that was flashing once on the zone should go steady. If not you still going to fast and the train can be triped, or if you start to speed up to soon and are not passed the WD End sign and a over speed is sensed the train is the tripes also. Some trips are with the signal in the zone or other are by them self, you cane tell if you in a zone by looking at the trip arms. If you see a trip arm on both side of the track then that one is used for a Wheel Detectors trips zone. This is done to trip the train no matter were it is in the zone. There is more that goes with it, but this shoud give you some idear about a Wheel Detectors.
Robert
Thanks !!
There is some complication though with the wheelbase (spacing
between the axles). All current NYCT passenger cars have the
same wheelbase, but work equipment can be different. WD signals
often have to be disabled when a work train is passing through
because the different wheelbase confuses the signal timing.
I know that one for a fact. I work on Work Track tww pick ago. WD can't be turned off. I triped on one in the six mouth out there. I we have to do is go even slower over them, since the wheelbase in shoter between axles.
Robert
I was driving down the New Jersey Tpke last week. Around Exit 8A, there is a railroad track that runs underneath the highway. If I recall, about 10 years ago it was under catenary. I noticed the
catenary is now removed.
Can anyone provide details on this. Did it connect the Northeast
Corridor and the NJT Long Branch lines?
According to my map, that would be part of the trackage for the proposed MOM (Monmouth, Ocean, Middlesex) Line. That does meet up with the Corridor at Monmouth Junction. You might be mistaken about seeing catenary in the past. I don't think it was electrified more than a couple of car lengths from the Corridor, if at all.
The turnpike crosses that line close to the Jamesburg end, not too close to the Monmouth Jct end.
That is the former PRR Jamesburg Branch. It was one of the last PRR lines electrified and it has the lowest return on electrification investment. The purpose of the line that ran from MIDWAY on the NEC to SA (South Amboy) on the NY&LB was for long coal trains comming off the Trenton Cuttoff or the Bel-Del that would then unload at the coal export piers in South Amboy. The coal export bussiness in South Amboy peetered out in the 50's and the line saw little traffic. The Jamesburg Branch was the last Conrail line to loose its overhead wire which it did around 1994 or 1995.
Thanks!
So they have announced another off the street train op test.This is a complete slap in the face to all conductors who want to be promoted.Not to mention people in track ,cleaners and clerks.WHY SHOULD WE HAVE PEOPLE WITH NO EXPERIENCE COMPETING WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN MTA FOR YEARS.The last promotional T/O test was 3 years ago ,since then they have given an off the street test WHICH WE WERE TOLD WE WOULD HAVE TO resign as C/R to get the job.Then on incidents Off the streeters were given chances promotionals werent.I WAS DEMOTED FOR 1 incident People in the class I was in have had up to 3 incidents each and all they got was reinstruction.I Was TOLD BY THE UNION THE NEXT TEST WOULD BE COMPLETELY PROMOTIONAL but as it always seems the union let us down again.Why do we pay the Union for anyway there's no new contract ,20/50 is a pipe dream,OPTO is expanding ,and off the street people are taking T/O jobs away from the inhouse.I for one know for fact those T/O's are gonna have some severe Problems in the crew rooms and its not there fault.
Are the qualifications for off-the-street and in-house the same ?
Or can they go for college educated, experienced, etc. that many in-house don't have ?
Most companies I've worked for they HAD TO offer the new opening to in-house first before they were allowed to go outside. How does going outside first benifit the union ? Or what did they get for allowing it ?
They really have no control over it. Some of my classmates (I am OC)were very unsymapthetic until it was pointed out if the nex TD ot TSS was open to the public they would feel like crap too.
When is this alleged test going to be?
There is no indication of it on the DCAS site and was not on the list of exams scheduled up to June 2003.
This is either a typical crewroom rumor by some show off, a cynical Union attempt to get people pissed for the contract fight or an even more cynical attempt to get people divided so they can try and run a cheap contract by a divided membership.
Now since the new and improved version of Train Operator I & II is on managements side of the table (and some of us want it) another off the street test would be ridiculous until after it is rejected.
The new TO 1&2 would still get rid of some jobs by reducing board and XL spots BUT it would make sure that every single TO was a CR first. Even Cleaners and Agents would have to be conductors first. This is one of those things that RTO and the rest of the Union conflict on.
Its Exam No. 2085 5/7/03 to 5/27/03. This is listed under O/C Jobs on the MTA NYCT Web site.
I can't believe it myself I was told it was going to be promotional do the the problems there where having with some of the O/C T/O's.
This does make me alittle angry because I was looking foward to takeing the Exam. I will not resign as C/R and start again as a new Employee. I may just stay as a Conductor because I don't care for the other Promotional Exams like Tower Operator and ATD.
I apologize I really can't believe it but 20XX is an OC series number.
Maybe they are trying to force TO 1&2 down everyones throat and this is the best way to do it. I still will not buy it 100% until they start taking the money.
Take the test anyway if you really want the job. They let people go back to their former titles like RushHourSpecialist.
I will tell you that at this point you can be XX List for over two years as a T/O.
Take the test anyway if you really want the job. They let people go back to their former titles like RushHourSpecialist.
There's no gaurantee however because as it was stated, you have to resign as C/R first in order to accept the T/O position. They can let you go to your old post, but they don't have to.
People quit for outside jobs and then come back within the year and get their old job back.
The real question is if you finish your probation THEN get in trouble will they let you go back.
Some questions:
1. Do T/O's get more money than conductors?
2. Is the starting salary for an off-the-street T/O less than a conductor with say, 7 years on the job?
I'm also perterbed that they're doing this again. I want them to have an off-the-street test for conductor positions (the job I covet). And, it's unfair to ask conductors to resign to be eligible to take the T/O test.
BTW, I took the track inspector test on 6/29, even though it's a position I do not want. Would I have to resign from this position (assuming I'm called and hired) if I wanted to become a conductor?
1. Do T/O's get more money than conductors?
A: Yes about $2 more an hout
2. Is the starting salary for an off-the-street T/O less than a conductor with say, 7 years on the job?
A: It would came out about the same or maybe the C/R would make alittle more because of the overtime we may do.
If you are a Track inspector you may have to resign because you would be making more then a Conductor.
They should have another Conductor Exam they can't be too far from the bottom of the list.
On number 2 the starting hourly rate of ANY Train Operator was higher than that of ANY Conductor. T/O's get the board ALOT out of school car so maybe they do OK
If the TA wants to hose people they might introduce 4 years to top pay for the new exam for TO. In this economy they would still get quality applicants.
How does everyone start out in the MTA...how did YOU start out in the MTA? Yes, O/C exams...I feel your pain a little but you have to see it from the other side too.
The best way really to start out is C/R before going to T/O. The best T/O's I worked with were C/R's. Thats because in Conductor school you not only learn about your job but the job of the T/O. After all the C/R according to TA is in charge. Also if your want to be T/O I guess in the old days it was by way of Station Agent, Cleaner , and Track Worker.
I notice when I'm working with a O/C T/O 95% don't have a clue what is going on.
Promotions are an important part of a career ... would you be happy spending the REST OF YOUR LIFE in the same title and NEVER move up? That's what you're recommending ya know ...
No offense to the "off the street hires" but you just normally don't start off a career in an "executive position" ... there's something to be said for the value of earning your way up a ladder, and having something to work towards. This whole thing smacks of an employer that doesn't appreciate its workforce and if I was a conductor seeing my options cut out from under my feet, I wouldn't give a CRAP about "customer service" any longer. I don't see this as in the TA's best interests at all.
I realize promotions are important, but there haven't been any O/C exams in a LONG TIME. Promotional exams are hardly rare, O/C exams are very rare these days for T/O.
Prior to that last go round, there was NEVER an open competitive for motorpeople. That was a position that required expertise and was given only to those who EARNED it. What O/C means is that the job and the position is no longer meaningful or important and that it requires no skills. That's a pretty powerful statement, and not one I'd appreciate after earning my handles. I'd be applying at PATH in a heartbeat.
BTW, I should explain where I'm coming from here. I hold no animosity towards the "off the street" folks here - you guys are just pawns in a larger game being played by the state in "dumbing down the workforce" into little more than "welfare to a McJob." In the past 8 years, Paturkey and his "Business Council buddies" have been driving out talent in the state workforce across all agencies, pushing people with tangible skills into early retirements, wage stagnation which pushes you out into the private sector and bringing in people who lack the experience and expertise that the state once enjoyed for its taxpayer supported payroll.
It's QUITE clear that this is a path to completely automated trains and given what's going on here, it looks like sooner rather than later if the skills of someone who is required to "control their train" is so insignificant that "learning the railroad" is no longer a prerequisite. I've seen this game played in many other state agencies where technical expertise was pushed out the door and replaced with expensive consultant contracts for freinds of the politicos. Once upon a time, that expertise was ON STAFF. Not anymore.
How about me and my buddies Unca Kevin? TA hired us for our outside expertise sans the few who 'squeeked in.' We're engineers and engineering techs, experienced HVAC and elevator systems techs. I first came in to work with a hand held digital storage scope and DVM, dropped the scope and now haven't used the DVM except for voltage drops in the door control loop of Redbirds...I just use an LED 'gimmick light' (no bulb to break,) an adjustable wrench and my trusty TA approved screwdriver/hammer combo. Why hire us for oil/brakes when we have so much more to offer? New Tech needs us to do so much but we do SOS! What I see is that the vendors' game will come to and end when warranty expires and by that time I'll be MS1 or in another department.
BTW: Lunch discussion...CED is the technical end of transit that provides working trainsets. TWU100 dumped us...we should either farm out to another union (UAW or CWA but not IBEW) or organise. CI Peter
Actually, I'd expect that you were a surprise gift to the TA. Ask yourelf what the qualifications they were LOOKING for would be and I'll bet few of your capabilities were on the list of requirements. Whereas, years ago I would have expected that the requirements for the position (and the test) would have required demonstration of technical skills commensurate with the fleet at the time. That's where I was going with my diatribe, no demeaning intended.
They got good value in hiring you. But I bet they didn't know they needed it. :)
You make a very valid point there, and now I totally understand what you're trying to get across.
Thats exactly the way I feel. If T/O is no longer a Promotion I don't have anything to look foward to or reason to keep my sick days down.
Just to add I wouldn't abuse my sick time but still there is nothing to look too. All I can hope for it that they change their minds and make it promotion so I can move up.
A *lot* of people in state service have hit the silk since Paturkey came along, I'm just one of thousands. Maybe many of us who called ourselves "professionals" might have stuck it out if the pay was better than anything else, or lacking that, if we weren't treated like kindergartners or looked down upon like "welfare recipients" but alas, such is not the case.
And you KNOW that if you became demoralized and took a few more days off than you usually do, they'd be on you like sheet on flies (deliberate twist) ... I really wish I wasn't saying this but this O/C T/O thing proved itself to not work out as well as planned (once again I'm not poking those in the title now, it's the CONCEPT that I have a problem with, not the victims of it) and I'm FLOORED that they're planning on doing it again.
But to my TWU brothers and sisters, you can only be sheet upon so many times. Just as one should have pride in their work, an organization should also have pride in their workers.
Been there. And that promotion ladder was the only thing sometimes that inspired you to put up with things. I looked forward to the day I'd move up front and therefore restrained myself never bitch-slapping a customer who gave me a hard time. Now I wouldn't be so sure. :)
But yeah, this is a really BAD thing for the TA to be doing. It's not like there's a lot of future openings in the dispatcher title to look forward to ... some day. Not to mention the benefit of knowing the railroad before you tear up and down along it for a check.
I don't want Towers or ATD. I decided its Train Operator or nothing. I will not resign so that out of the question. I'm going to have to start looking somewhere else if this keeps up. Maybe I'll try PATH, Metro North or NJ Transit.
Here's hoping they come to their senses (but I won't turn blue, this is Paturkey's world after all) but at the same time, what's going on in YOUR shop is exactly what's happened in other state agencies over the past 8 years (and started in padre Mario's days) ... the ones who CAN get stomped on and leave, leaving behind only those who really couldn't cut it on their own.
Wonder why the quality of government services is going to hell in a handcart? It's because those who are good at what they do have had enough. LOTS of people put up with working the middle of the train ONLY because there was a glimmer of hope of that promotion up front someday. And if they take this away, it'll cause a lot of people to reconsider their options.
You're a VERY good conductor, and having done it for a living I know good vs. so-so. You're exactly the kind of people that should be encouraged to remain in the system and move up front because I can tell you'd be a hell of a good motorman too. But hey, these clowns won't be happy until they've got folks up front who can do their entire interval with only 5 BIE's per round trip. :)
Thank You for the kind words. I'll just end up making the best out of being Conductor. I'll keep moving to diffrent lines to keep the exitement going.
I'm looking foward to this pick SR will be my follower on my first trip during the week on the # 6 Line.
You're most welcome ... I don't hand out congratulations often (heh) but having seen you do your thing, I was QUITE impressed. And I'm hoping that you'll get your trip up front some day. I'd hate to see the TA lose someone as dedicated to your work as you are. Not many take such pride and care in what they do. And I mean that.
Hi Kevin,
Please tell me what the O/C in O/C T/O stands for? Is it over-the-counter because they're being hired off the street instead of promoted from Conductor? Thanks in advance.
Best wishes,
Bob
"O/C" is a civil service classification of a title. In this case, "Open Competitive" which means any Tom Dick or Hairless can take the test with no priors. This is as opposed to "Promotional" which means "closed to the public, eligibility only for existing employees" ... it devalues the position as a "merit" based title.
Thanks Kevin. I should have known that after so many years with the Transit Authority. I think the abbreviation threw me off. While we're on the subject, the TA has really outdone themselves this time. After years of lowering the standards so that the exams would be fair to all (I think you get my point), this seems to be the final insult. A few years before I retired I noticed an influx of operating employees that had no respect for the job, supervision or themselves. I retired as a Motorman Instructor (I refuse to call the title Motor Instructor, obviously an idiot designed it)and in my last few years I noticed the increase in these peoples obnoxiousness and insubordination towards myself and others in the supervisory field. I had to have a Conductor arrested for threatening me after I reinstructed him about being on his train two minutes prior to departure. Now how stupid is that? I can only imagine that it's gotten much worse since my retirement. I you give the operating employees no chance of advancement you're going to breed a group of individuals that, because they have nothing to lose, will truly have the "I don't give a f--k" attitude and I, for one, wouldn't want to reinstruct any of them.
Yeah, I've got 30+ years out of the TA and subtalk has been a CONSTANT reminder of just how much I've forgotten entirely myself. Heh. I get slapped around frequently for constantly injecting the necessity of politics into many threads here and a lot of folks don't seem to realize that the transit authority (and other public transit facilities just like it elsewhere) *ARE* political agencies. As such, they're subject to the insane and inane whims of sausage crafters with absolutely zero concept of what it is those folks do "down in de hole" at their bequest.
Elimination of unnecessary barriers to entry (I'm actually GLAD to see that women have come into the "trade", there really was no good reason for keeping them out in the past if they wanted to do the work) but some of this "touchy feely" nonsense just continues to put me over the top. And as a result of hiring completely unqualified people, we now have WD's and blind trips and a bunch of other complete silliness. When I worked for the TA, the mentality was one of "you're a professional and you'd better *BE* one" and "wing it or fling it" as required. You were taught your job so that no matter what happened, you were ready to deal with it, one way or another.
Seems nowadays that if you're qualified to operate a DESK, then 600 tons of steel is a coffee break. While I'm glad to see a good number of managers came up through the ranks and have a good idea, the wigs at the top no doubt have never been IN a subway car. All I can say is I'm really glad I'm not with the show nowadays. I'd feel compelled to SHOOT a few of them. :)
Bob I completely agree with you.Supervision has had its balls cutoff completely.If we are all gonna be stuck in the same titles There will be an increase in sick calls,people being late ,and just plain ignorance.Why would a qualified C/R keep his sick time down if he is at top salary?Not going to get promoted so those days in the summer look a whole lot better.And why bother doing things by the book ,if they can hire any schmuck to drive the train they can hire animals to be conductors.
Uh oh, looks like we may have to get the media spotlight out again for SR following JR!
September 17th is coming up....one year on duty as a Car Inspector! Some start in MTA because of friends or relatives...I heard of the job from a radio ad...my class for the mostpart never heard of the opportunity! So you take the test, TA wants you and you're called in quickly...1250 B'way eats your heart out and finally you go to PS248.
You finish...you do your first 'pick' and get 'thrown to the dogs.' You learn 'hands on,' you struggle as a 'newbie' despite your age, your 'chops are broken' because you have a little more interest in the work than others. Put your time in and REVALATION!!!!! TA is socialism...everyone in the title is EQUAL!!!. The 'brains' and the brainless, the 'skilled' and the stupid, the 'responsible' and the slackers are all lumped into one title at one pay level. You can stick to one title and pay level for the rest of your life...many do...but if you love the work and want better, you'll take advantage of the next promotional exam and move up. Sure, respect and perks from management are good BUT moving up is better. All the years of extensive work I have done has little managerial experience...I ran the field service department singlehandedly and am afraid of becoming MS BUT do you really think YOUR supervisors had the necessary experience?? Most started just like us. CI Peter
I'm only 15 dude, but my teachers were students before...though it sometimes doesn't seem like it ;-)
yea see thats the thing i wonder. i work for the MTA metro North Railroad. i dont have the 3 years college or the 5 years work experience. im 19 working for Metro North Railroad. am i eligible for the exam?
NO.
iight i knew ENGINEER was better anyway!!!!
Last month there was an open call for engineers too.
What does O/C stand for? isnt C/R conductor and T/O train operator?
O/C = Open Competitive.
Yes, C/R stands for conductor and T/O means Train Operator.
C/R is officially "Conductor/Revenue"
A few more, FYI:
CTA= Cleaner Transit Authority
S/A= Station Agent
TW/O=Tower Operator
ATD= Assistant Train Dispatcher
TD = Train Distpatcher
TSS= Train Service Supervisor
RCI= Road Car Inspector
CI = Car Inspector
Peace,
ANDEE
Good Day Folks,
In referencing the Train Operator position, that was previously promotional,
all reference points to it being promotional from Conductor.
Was it possible at one time within the past 10~15 years
for a Bus Operator to take the Train Operator Test as promotional.
Pass and be appointed, then because of the job requirement, resign
and be reappointed to their previous job title?
Another question, the RCI position. Is that a promotional
appointment or open competitive?
I'm not a transit expert and this posting leads me to querry to
things, that I know occured. Thanks to all for any input.
;| ) Sparky
Bus Operators could take it so could cleaners and station agents.
IMO this gave the MTA the ammunition to change the exam.
..."Bus Operators could take it so could cleaners and station agents."...
In fairness, prior to the institution of the O/C test, would not
preference be given to C/R on the list?
No offense against the others trying to promote themselves.
Another question, which dates back 3 decades is the exam for
Bus Operator and Conductor the same currently and do they still
fill from the same list?
Not forming any opinions, just want to understand the situation.
Thanks, ;| ) Sparky
Anyne who could take a promotional is treated the same. I can't speak for 30 years ago but currently you get bonus points based on your length of service in prerequisite titles.
Conductor and Bus Operator do not fill from the same list any longer (or at least are not supposed to). The last exam for B/O & C/R was in 1987. The test I took in 1993 was for C/R only.
The test I took to enter the TA was in 1989, and it too was a combo B/O, C/R test.
What amazes me is that my file # was above 4000, and they still got to me (thank God for luck).
The guy that broke me in on the R was 12K on the cleaners list and 9K on the c/r list
RCI is indeed an open-competitive title, though you need prior experience to obtain the title.
RCI requires experience but some RCIs I have met don't know what planet they're on. RCI would be a good job for me....shifts and locations really stink. Better choice is Car inspector assigned to inspections...M/F 7/3 RDO S/S. CI Peter
Im not against off the street train op test but people who worked for the MTA for years should be more eligable than some guy who just happened to wander into the MTA headpuarters.
You pay the union so that the big shots over at the union can drive there nice cars (on you of course) and have nice lunches on their expense accounts at manhattans finest resturants
"I Was TOLD BY THE UNION THE NEXT TEST WOULD BE COMPLETELY PROMOTIONAL but as it always seems the union let us down again"
Here is a little trick I learned that may help you in dealing with the TWU. You can always tell when they are not being truthful. Their lips will be moving.
FYI when a person who is permanent in a title takes a an o/c test he/she does not have to resign his/her previous title!It is still a promotion for that person BUT you do not get the extra points you would had gotten if it was a prom test.(i think it something like half point or point for every 6 months. not sure)You still have your previous title to fall back on.
As for the test being o/c now. I think there was too little interest in the prom.for c/r's The only people who take the test were brand new to the ta.I took the last one but by the time they called me i had enough seniority to get a job close to me,and got the hours i wanted.Its not appealing to be on the extra list for 2 years.The last prom.test alot of people i knew took it got called for the 1st and 2nd classes and had a pick job in the next pick. Now i talk to the guys who were out about six months later and just got to pick (2years later).
The only thing i dont think is fair is that all o/c jobs you have to wait 3 years to get top pay. the last o/c t/o test they got yard pay immediately.
YES, the 12/00 C/R class got picked jobs by 12/01 the people out six months later might still not pick in 2003 or if they fdo they might go back to XX after the work in 2004 is done. Large number of retirements and additions to serivce not factored in.
The TO's starting in early 2002 might take until 2005 to pick.
The TO promotional was a tough test. Not impossible but the OC test was much easier.
If the O/C test is technically a promotional test for the C/R then why is he being penalized by being unable to exercise the use of his/her seniority. And why is the playing field being leveled? The advantage should go to the people "in house".
I was told by a TSS from school car that the last O/C test was just to teach the union a lesson and that the next test would be promotional.
Let me shed some light on this point. In reality - the union does not care. There will be X conductors and Y train operators and Z tower operators, etc. As long as they pay their dues and talk the party line, the union couldn't care if they come from open competative or promotional lists. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues.
It's comforting to know that some things don't change. The TWU was worthless for all intents and purposes during my career and they're still worthless today.
Long may we remember Engels/Marx/Lenin and Gus Hall!! WE in TA get paid every two weeks...my deductions total over seven hundred dollars per paycheck and I just signed up for the 401K plan at 7%. TWU gets what...$500+ a year? Just had emergency dental surgery...have plan B...and will do a double reverse inspection shift tomorrow...because I cannot afford the expense even with compensation and have to take the health risk to make ends meet. Hopefully, the R142 will come in not too far past the shift start, my partner and I will complete our inspections swiftly and the car desk will leave us alone. 11PM to 3PM is a sixteen hour killer shift. CI Peter
Long may we remember Engels/Marx/Lenin and Gus Hall!!
The British firemen sure haven't forgotten:
Inflation: approx 1.5%
Pay offer: 4%
Demand: 40 (forty)%
They're now balloting for a strike.
Hazards, hours and shift durations: seeds of discontent. NYPD could get 11% over two years as decided by an arbitrator...that work is pretty safe as compared to FDNY. A fireman has longer shifts but works less days...they can sit all day polishing the chrome BUT there is always THAT fire which injures or kills. TWU100 is gearing up for a potential strike December 15th...an across the board pay increase and/or medical benefits. Signal maintainers, track workers and car inspectors are routinely exposed to hazardous duty and deserve special consideration just like firemen and police. CI Peter
Yeah well we've got the Army to put out the fires whilst the Trades Unions are being silly, so it's not a hell of a big deal. To be fair to the bastards, for the job they do, they probably deserve 15%-20% more than their current pay (£22,000-ish, roughly $33,000).
[...and off-the-street people are taking T/O jobs away from the inhouse (sic).]
People love to make the "outsiders/foreigners/whoever are taking our jobs" argument, but refuse to DO anything about it.
The easiest and most logical course of action, of course, is to simply SUE to get your T/O job. All you'd have to do is...
1. Identify the specific job that you would have gotten;
2. Identify the specific individual who was hired into that job;
3. Prove that ONLY you would otherwise have gotten that job;
4. Prove that the other person was hired specifically to prevent you from getting that job.
5. Hire a lawyer and file notices of claim against both Transit and the person who was hired.
I'll be checking the papers to see how this litigation progresses.
At least at the Transit Museum. A pre-renovation mosaic has been preserved.
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/iw-cortlandt05.jpg
On our way back from our vacation in Virginia, we traveled I-495 to connect to I-95 back to New Jersey. There is a segment of the WMATA that runs along with the highway all along for the span of two station stops and it drifts away. Speed reaches 60mph (correct me if I'm wrong). Which line of the WMATA is this on? Any other helpful or important information I might need to know? (I don't know anything about WMATA)
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You,
The Blue line. It's near Van Dorn Station and Springfield Terminal.
Love to show you a track map, but the Metro Police consider that as critical information and it was pulled from this web site.
To even further answer the question, it's along the southern portion of the Blue Line....more than likely, you saw the Van Dorn Station--as for the second station, you might have seen the Eisenhower Avenue station which is actually on the Yellow Line and is suspended above and along-side I-495. This portion of the Blue Line is the only portion of the Metro that runs parallel to I-495. Quick question, the line that you're referring to cross the highway on a bridge, if so, you maybe thinking of the Yellow Line between Eisenhower and Huntington. You can see both of those stations from I-495.
Keep these in mind for future trips to the VA/MD/DC area:
Another Metro Line, the Orange, runs in the median of I-66 in Virginia for four stations (Vienna, Dunn Loring, West Falls Church, East Falls Church) before it goes into a tunnel at Ballston and continues east along Wilson Blvd. in Arlington.
There is also a location in Maryland where the Red Line crosses the Beltway (I-495) on a large overgrade bridge on the way to /from Shady Grove. This is where 270 and 495 intersect near Bethesda.
I have spent some time riding the subways in the past years but I can't help noticing the sounds the train makes when its axles pass over a gap in the track. It's not the same sound, but a different sound on certain ones. A good example is the 53rd St. tube (E line) from 50th St. to 23rd St. - Ely Av. A myriad of sounds are depicted and I want to know what causes the different sounds to occur?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
i did think that by the year 2000 you would not hear that anymore
i just knew the rails would be welded like LAMTA MARTA METRO wash. dc.
etc...why the nyc subway is not like dat' ??.................!
i do notice you hear about 6 clacks or bams to 2 in the front an pause then 4 in the back ...the wheels i am sure ?
( just a q&a )
They still need to be seperate somewhere. The rails expand and contract with temperature so they need to be spaced with a block of wood. Also, there are IJs at the signals.
#2 line trackage is well maintained but not up to par with the rest of the world. One thing I can say for sure is that what you heard/felt was not the wheels themselves but the wheels bouncing between rail gaps...no 'flats' or chips yet. CI Peter
Maybe a switch?
New trackage which contains the welded rail has all but eliminated the clickety-clack sound you refer to. It's now just one continous roar. Also, fewer cars run with those "flat" wheels which created ear shattering dins back in the 70's/80's.
Subway riding were much more enjoyable from an audio perspective 15-20 years ago.
We also had continous roars back then too. No offense to your handle Chris but I don't miss the R27/30s at all.
Wow, those are some mighty flat wheels. Sounds like the 6th Ave shuttle circa 1987.
Well, you're always going to hear some sounds when trains pass over switches. But if the TA is maintaining the wheels properly, you won't hear a lot else. Look at how quietly Washington and Miami Metrorail operate.
The TA is doing a better job than it has in the past.
Some systems seem quiet simply because the windows stay closed and because the tracks have no sharp curves. When I was riding the Baltimore system in May, the a/c wasn't working in my car so I opened a window. I've never heard anything so loud from a train not making a sharp turn.
No. I mean a lot of DIFFERENT sounds. Try riding an E from 50th St. to 23rd St. - Ely Av. You hear about 5 or 6 totally different sounds when the wheels hit a gap over the rail and they are not all switches.
Also, when would two different switches cause two different sounds?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Check this site: Today We Save a Little gas on the Railroad.net webpage and explore. The railroad industry consumes thousands of barrels of oil on a daily basis.
I've also been wondering about the quality of the diesel fuel used on diesel-electric locomotives. At a CITGO gas station, I noticed that the CETANE level of the fuel was 40. Do the railroads use a higher quality fuel?
How do they fuel up the large tanks on the locomotives and how long does it take?
Off-link: What is the quality of the fuel used on airplanes? How do they fill those extremely large tanks?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I posted that Hot Times days ago.
I didn't post that Hot Times days ago.
I saw an article in the latest issue of Progressive Railroad magazine that featured some freight lines in the South West that were experimenting with using corn and vegetable oils in the fuel tanks of their diesel locomotives. Funny thing was: they ran just as well and released less pollutants into the air. The down side: the price was about $1.00 more per gallon than diesel. Obviously, this is great news for alternative fuel and environmental activists. Hopefully, the price can be reduced on bulk orders of these natural oils so that these 'tests' will lead to a future permanent change from diesel to corn oil.
There are some cities that run busses and municipal vehicles on waste fry oil from restaurants. None around here of course, but it's been said that when such vehicles pass by, there's a sudden urge among many for a McShake. In other words, there is an odor of fries to many of those vehicles. I'm not kidding here for once, but I do find that a bit amusing too.
'Scue me sir -- you want fries with that shake?
;-)
As long as the shaking stops when the doors close. :)
Ohio State University used a blend of waste cooking oil and diesel for their campus shuttlebus fleet in the 70s. They referred to the mixture as "Buckfry".
Very cute...
There was an article in the NYtimes a few months back that stated that there is enough used frying oil to power the entire NYC transit bus fleet
NYC and or ny state should get into the biodesil market.
Absolutely ... but for what it's worth, in other cities that HAVE tried it, almost universally the "sensitive" complained and had it stopped because they did NOT appreciate the "french fry restaurant" smell that came out of the tailpipes. In some cities, envirokooks went completely berserk and SUED, insisting that since they recognized the odor, those busses were "killing Leisure George" ... seems in some cases no matter what you try to do you can't win.
But yes, it does make sense. Maybe we can get the Saudis to eat more fries. :)
I'd prefer French Fry smell to Diesel exhaust 100 times as much. Why are people such idiots.
I guess it smells like victory. Personally, I'd crack down on those guys burning those chestnuts on the street corners. I'd hook up an oxygen mask to a bus tailpipe before I'd want to smell THOSE again. :)
It is very simple:
"Change is bad and must be resisted whenever it threatens to happen".
"You will be changed. Resistance is futile."
Well at first they used castor oil in cars, the is why one brand has its name.
The fumes supposedly made you want to go and when you were burning oil it was an overpowering one.
El Castor Malo ... "Castor" in Spanish is "beaver" ... I'm gonna let this one sit there. :)
Yeah you always have that craving.
What can I say, bro? It's that UPSTATE living. :)
"The down side: the price was about $1.00 more per gallon than diesel. Obviously, this is great news for alternative fuel and environmental activists."
Do you know how much diesel oil and gasoline farmers burn to raise the crops for that gallon of corn oil? I don't know exactly, but I believe it's considerable.
Do you have firsthand experience with farmland preservation, the cost of running machinery along with obtaining fuel and its prices? Almost every veggy scrap can be salvadged for alcohol production and the remnants used for animal feed or dried for furnace operation. Even 'cowshit' can be fermented in a container and the methane gas recovered with the use of filters and a refrigerant vacuum pump.
We're still fighting time and money...when the 'final collapse' comes into effect, motors will run on methane gas, radios on photovoltaics and light/heating on higher aromatics/veggy oils. Newspapers will cost five bucks, one auto tire will cost two months income and we'll be commuting to work on bicycles with steel rims sans rubber tires.
And my subways...30 to 40 tonnes weight per car...gone! I have ammonia absorbtion refrigeration too...just a little heat from LPgas/12 VDC/ 120VAC makes it work so very well. CI Peter
So you have a Servel referigerator?
I HAVE A HIGH SPEED REFRIGRATOR. IT WILL FREEZE ANYTHING IN SIGHT. IT REALLY QUICK. FREEZING IS EASY. POWER CONSUMPTION IS LOW BUT IS HIGH WHEN SOMETHING IS BEING FREEZED. THAT IS A HIGH SPEED GE REFRIGRATOR, ITS REALLY GOOD IT CAN GO FROM 0 TO -100 IN 6 SECONDS
"SOMETHING IS BEING FREEZED"
in America, we say "when something is being frozen."
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
:0)
I should have capitalized "In."
No juicesky no cold brewsky!
No, I'm not that off the wall to chuck out the Sears for a Servel....I have a three way portable made by one of the RV amnufacturers. If I had a Servel I would also have LP gas fired water heaters (demand and furnace back up) but the explosions I have observed with LP preclude any indoor ops. Empty out the refrigerator of all the crap you won't ever consume, leave some airspaces, trash most of the crap in the freezer...and you can run the refrigerator off a generator for two or three hours a day because of insulation efficiency.
The guy down the hall that had the fire...upon another apartment cleanup last week...had cases of candles! We're not yet ready to live by candlelight or computer/TV by photovoltaics and storage batteries.
A freezer is more effficent when filled with goods. Cold air is harder to cool and leves the frig every time you open it. Frozen material loses it coldness much less quickly.
Ay, Juice, Do you have a Servel Refrigerator?
No, an RV portable chest. I do know Swiss Servel....and am experienced with the other built in RV units (stinking ammonia leak.)
Two issues here
1)How much gas and oil does it take to drill offshore for oil and gas, ship it to refineries and refine and ship to consumers. A whole lot. I believe it takes 2 gallons of fuel for every gallon of fuel produced by the petroleum industry. Fianlly the finacial wizzard have showed farmers that the waste they now pay to haul away is actually worth money.
The economies of scale will bring down the final cost of biodesiel if it would be mass produced. In fact if all methods are used such as using waste vegatable oil, scaps and peals from the production of foods(almonds are a good example, resturant collection would be too costly + waste management and co own landfills which they rather the waste stream to go to ) the cost would probably be compettive with petroleum based desiel
The problem is just that. The oil industry wants to protect it near monopoly on the energy business. THe bush administration was elected into office by the oil states and farm belt. The bush adminstration is pushing the house and senate to mandate ethenol to be used as oxegenation agent in all gas.
Developing alternative fuel on a large scale is a national security issue not an ENVIRONMENTAL issue. THe problem is that the bush amdminstration views ethanol and biodesiel as farm subsidies for the corn and soybean industries and not as promising ways to reducing the money we send to the middle east pupet governments(who support terrotist groups out of fear in some cases).
In the past two years there has been great strides in utilizing waste products on farms as fuel. Instead of dumping waste from pigs into big poluting pools they are put into fermetors generating another revenue stream for farmers(the biggest welfare cases around even though many large farmers maek 300k plus a year)
The MTA already committed itself to buying higher cost low sulfer fuel. It would be cheaper for NYS to work with private industry to build out a biodesiel refinery (I Know the nimby would never allow it) . A NYTIMES article a few months back said that there is enough waste vegatable oil to power all nyc transit buses on b100 biodesil.
The main problem keeping biosesil in the US from becoming a partner with petroleum based desiel is politics and big business
The oil industry - why tamper with what is making money for them
The waste disposal industry - Invested heavily in land fills. Not willing to tinker with business monel (the NYC reclyling issue)
the farm industry - We want only our crops used and we want top dollar
http://www.biodiesel.org/
http:www.eyeforenergy.com
The low sulfur fuel biz is a lie...you can buy all the cheap oil you want and remove the sulfur yourself to comply with emmission standards...Conned Ed did it with coal across the river in Ravenswood until EPA said no more coal...the plant still stands today. just have to find a use for the 'yellow stuff' left behind.
Nuke the third world...nuclear power forever. Or would you like your
wonderful trainsets and your TV/VCR/computer to just go dead?
CI Peter.....Redbirds will continue to fly!
Geez, Unca Peter ... all we need is some cobalt slugs, sea water and a carboy. Hydrogen bladders for everyone. :)
Yes sulfur can be removed
But it costs to remove sulfer plus lowers the refining capacity of the refinery
A mixture of biodeseil and petroleum based desiel is the way to go long term
Sulfur is removed on site at the generating plant....Conned ED used to have barges on the East River for pickups. Biodiesel is balognadiesel...baloneydiesel...look up the 200 MPG Carbourater and you'll know why!
Sulfer is an important industrial raw material (especially for H2SO4) and most Sulfer used in this country comes from oil. De-sulfering oil not only cleans the air, but elimnatesthe added environmental cost of sulpher mines. Railroads frequently run unit molten sulpher trains, just like they run unit grain, coal and LPG trains.
The oil industries main complaint is that the extra processing needed to remove the sulfer will reduce their refineries capacity.
They should have thought of the capacity issues before they closed down all those refineries 10 years back
The most economicle path is to develope biodesil industry, thus lowering the cost of biodesil and utilize both biodeseil and petro desiel as neccessary
I hate these state mandats which end up costing far too much and returning far to little
forget about emmission standards and thing natioal security
THE CHEAP oil is costing us money- we are sending amercan greenbacks overseas
MEANWHILE
we are giving farmers money for the crops that they grow that we dont need
BIODESIEL - use unnneeded crops keep our money in the good ole USA
Hey...'Farmers rights.' East coast farmers grow grass and legumes...cows eat and fart methane and defficate carbohydrates. The farmers get property tax breaks. You are too 'city minded' to know the truth....I lost my farmland tax break because of nasty politics.
The cycle will not be broken until 'the final collapse.' When NYC dies I have an estate that is 90% self sufficient...just may need a little food. The oil companies just sit and wait taking in the income...the changes are sooner than you think when the subway ride costs two bucks. CI Peter
BTW, that's "defecate"...
You're not, by any chance, waiting for the black helicopters of the UN to invade us and bring the New World Order with them, are you?
What are you going to do when there are NYCers tring to steal your crops? You can't make ammo as fast as they steal it.
Nuclar will runout. Plus we don't know how to recycle radioactive waste (it must be emmiting energy, then how can it hurt us?).
Electromagnetic energy collection!
Google Search
Site dedicated to this stuff
Only problem is that the capitalist pigs will not allow it to excist. It would drastically change the econmy forever, since these are one-time sales. Also all governments would outlaw it and kill anyone who can create these machines. Though 15 at 120v amps really isn't much at the momment as what I herad excisted from the US Psychotronics Association quarterly newsletter. My mother is into this stuff and I know alot of it. Still free energy would kill the fossil fuel market. And do you think the 2 billion a year exxon-mobile would allow it?
"How much gas and oil does it take to drill offshore for oil and gas, ship it to refineries and refine and ship to consumers. A whole lot. I believe it takes 2 gallons of fuel for every gallon of fuel produced by the petroleum industry"
Sounds phony to me. I'd like to know here you got that figure.
"In the past two years there has been great strides in utilizing waste products on farms as fuel. Instead of dumping waste from pigs into big poluting pools they are put into fermetors generating another revenue stream for farmers(the biggest welfare cases around even though many large farmers maek 300k plus a year) "
Oh boy are we misinformed here. Farmers operate on some of the thinnest margins of any industry. Yes, some do receive subsidies, others price supports and still others cut-rate loans. But that doesn't mean they doing well.
Show us what % of farmers are making $300K a year, and how many are near bankruptcy...
I can assure everyone that "family farmers" are too small to qualify and operate at a LOSS ... this is why you see suburban sprawl as farmer after farmer throws in the towel and DEVELOPS. These "subsidies" go to the likes of CocaCola/MinuteMaid, ConAgra and ADM corporate farms. The "little guy" gets bupkiss ...
Little guys get 'farmland assesment' because they grow grass to feed cows MOOOOOOO!
If you ever get up this way, I'll give you a tractor ride across our pastures (assuming they're not under snow at the designated time coordinates) ... BIG pastures, no tax break. Zoned "residential" and PAID as "residential" ... but I save a LOT of fuel not ... mooing it. :)
(I Know the nimby would never allow it)
Then how did they allow 1 1/2 acre sewadge treatment plant near the Home Depot store in Coledge Point?
Construction on it has been going on for years now. It borders the Van Wick Expressway and Coledge Point Blvd.
The price would come down if the BUSH adminstration would allow it too.
Biodesiel is cheapest if made out of mustard seed oil.
Idealy biodesiel would be made from organic waste products but the bush administration is treating it as a farm subsidy instead of a nation security issue
How do they fuel up the large tanks on the locomotives and how long does it take?
They connect a hose to a fuel inlet on the locomotive and pump gas through the hose.
Off-link: What is the quality of the fuel used on airplanes? How do they fill those extremely large tanks?
See above.
BTW, define "airplane." Propeller planes use internal combustion engines that are fueled the same way as cars. Jet planes use kerosene.
"Propeller planes use internal combustion engines that are fueled the same way as cars"
Except that they use highly volatile 100-octane gas. It has a blue tint to it.
Most commercial propjobs today use turboshaft engines (jet engines driving a propeller through a gearbox).
Well German engines during WW2 ran on 87 octane and there were some American engines that could run on 66. Still, the fuel of choice for American aviation was the 100/131 aviation fuel.
Jet fuel is delivered through 2" or largers hoses connected to the aircraft with a Parker Pressure Fitting. Fure transfer is at an extremely high rate of speed.
Ditto Locomotives. OK, a regular fuel fill cap and hose, but the pump is not like your father's Exxon pump. Check out how fast fuel fills at a truck stop. When we fill our ambulance at the diesel pump at a local station, is no problem. If we fuel at a truck stop, just you watch out! Them suckers are FAST!
Next time you are on a locomotive fueling dock, just glance at the equipment. More difficult this past year, but they used not to object to visitors on the platform. AMTK fuels in Minot, you can watch them from the passenger platform.
Elias
That would be
Parker-Hannifin Corp?
I meant commercial airplanes that include non-jet airplanes. (Like a Boeing 737, 747, 757, 767, 777) The first is not a jet but the last four are.
Do they use kerosene?
'Jet aircraft' whether directly vented propulsion force (look what the Redbirds did to me) or turbo props use aviation grade J-1 fuel. J-1 is ultra refined kerosene, clearer than tap water. There are additives like anti-gel, anti-fungus, high tension lubricants but lacking the hectane additives diesel engines require....higher hectane in diesels means fewer misfires during compression...aircraft jet engines need higher fuel votility. One thing considered for years was the addition of a gelling agent...fuel pumps could be adjusted for the thicker fuel...what the gelling agent would do is in the event of a crash, the fuel would tend to stay in one place rather than spread around and cooking off the survivors. BTW: Do you know where the fuel tanks are??? They are in the wings! CI Peter
BTW: Do you know where the fuel tanks are??? They are in the wings!
Only in the wings? The 767 has a capacity of 23,980 gallons and I don't know if all that can be stored in the wings. Am I incorrect?
I make trains go...not an airframe or powerplant mechanic. I understand that there are three tanks in the newest 'biggies'...one in each wing and an auxillary. The FAA recall has to do with fuel transfer between tanks...you don't want to fly an aircraft overweight on one side so you pump fuel to balance out the plane....the pumps are located in each tank and the idea is to keep enough fuel always in the tank to cover up the pump and smother out any sparks or static charges which could ignite volatile vapors. CI Peter
Kerosene is NOT volatile. Jet engines have fuel pumps which "atomize" the spray, that is, create a very fine spray with lots of surface area for combustion.
Kerosene is volatile when atomised...true....and you do NOT want hectane additives to prevent 'dieseling' that would reduce volatility under pressure. Key words: 'under pressure.' You misunderstood my point: J-1 must burn during first ignition and remain burning...anything anti-diesel could prevent continued ignition and terminate engine operation. I've played with many alternative energy sources and fuels: HH1, K1,J1, gasoline 95 to 101 octane,diesel 1 and 2, alcohol, vegetable oil, water. Didn't cook up 'cold fusion' in the kitchen though. HAVE PASSIVE SOLAR HOUSE....all this stuff is a time consuming money eating hobby and don't get me started on photovoltaics much less WindChargers. The best money saver is a multifuel furnace that you can 'gyp' the carters out of weekly garbage pickup and my mother is balking about the amount of garbage to burn...township road is seven hundred feet down the driveway. Winter is coming and the garbage burns up faster in cold weather. CI Peter
What is hectane? I know hexane, heptane, octane, and "isooctane" (2,2,4-trimethylpentane), but don't know what you mean by hectane.
Hectre? The version of an acre in europe.
No, they are ALL jets. The 737 is a jet just like all Boeing 7x7 models. There are no non-jet commercial aircraft currently in service, except for some minor puddle jumpers, mostly in other countries.
Still plenty of turbo props at the (ahem, kaff) "Albany INTERNATIONAL Airport." I'm surprised there's no more DC-3's. :)
They don't call us "Podunk on the Hudson" for nuttin'.
Well, my statement about propeller planes only in third-world countries stands. :-)
Heh. And here I was hoping you'd leap on the "International" bit. We find that amusing around here since it describes a charter flight that goes somewhere in Canada, usually empty. We've got a spiffy new airport here but folks would MUCH rather take the train. :)
Heh. And here I was hoping you'd leap on the "International" bit. We find that amusing around here since it describes a charter flight that goes somewhere in Canada, usually empty. We've got a spiffy new airport here but folks would MUCH rather take the train. :)
There are "international" airports all over the United States that never see any scheduled service beyond the borders of the good old USA. It is pretty ludicrous, how the name has utterly lost whatever meaning it might have had.
You actually should be happy up in Albany, at least you've got Southwest Airlines.
True, but I'd still rather take the train. :)
>>> There are "international" airports all over the United States that never see any scheduled service beyond the borders of the good old USA. It is pretty ludicrous, how the name has utterly lost whatever meaning it might have had <<<
An international airport is one at which flights originating outside of the United States may legally land. I do not think it has ever lost that meaning. Every international airport must have facilities for Immigration and Customs checks, even if it is only done on a part time basis when an international plane arrives so the pilot and passengers have to wait at the airport until someone arrives to check them.
Tom
How does a charter flight go empty? Did the passengers pay the airline and then not show up?
Not that the airline should complain. It got paid its fee, and wound up burning less fuel because the aircraft was empty.
Unless I'm missing an important detail?
Yes, the airline gets paid its fee. Fuel burn is about the same (passengers don't weigh much). The detail is that the firm that chartered the flight then goes bankrupt.
AEM7
"Fuel burn is about the same (passengers don't weigh much)"
I think not. A 767 aircraft weighing 230,000 pounds empty will not have the same fuel burn or flying characteristics as a 767 carrying 100,000 pounds of passengers, luggage and cargo (say, US mail or parcels). The engine settings on take-off, and length of runway needed for achieving rotation speed will vary. Another important factor is how much fuel is taken on, as that contributes a lot of weight as well.
A 747-400's empty weight is around 526,000 pounds. When completely full, take off weight can be 900,000 pounds. In Asia, some air carriers can stuff nearly 600 people on that airliner. 250,000 pounds (luggage and cargo included) makes a difference. An empty 747 can take off using only 5,000 feet of runway; the pilots can conserve fuel by not opening the throttles all the way. A fully loaded 747 can require up to twice that, with the throttles opened to full power.
Fuel burn will not be the same.
Nw, admittedly every plane does not fly completely full, and the marginal cost of each passenger is very, very small (negligible). But it is not true that it makes no difference whether the plabe flies empty or not.
Yes... but we were talking about a charter plane -- usually a Regional Jet, or at most a 737. Charter planes do not usually carry scheduled freight, and these planes only carry about 50-100 pax. Passengers each weigh on average about 150 pounds, so 100 pax is 15,000 pounds and that, compared to the weight of a RJ, about 150,000 pounds, really isn't all that significant.
Fuel burn would be substantially the same. Yes, it makes a difference, but not enough of a difference to be worth noticing. The point is that the aircraft still has to move even if no one rides it, and fuel would still be burned.
This is clearly a "glass half full, glass half empty" argument.
AEM7
Given your additional details, I agree.
Please note that even a 747 can be "chartered." Remember World Airways?
You burn a lot of wood with a bigger load but save a few cords if you pick up a tailwind. Mentioning Asian airlines brings back memories of KAL flight 007. Apart from the photographic sweep of Sakholin Island, the pilots were tweeking the flight path to save some fuel...Asian pilots get a bonus for the number of pounds of fuel saved.
Thank you. Wonder if US Airways should hand out those same bonuses to its pilots. :0)
Mentioning Asian airlines brings back memories of KAL flight 007. Apart from the photographic sweep of Sakholin Island, the pilots were tweeking the flight path to save some fuel...
What was the final word on that? Was KAL 007 spying? My understanding was that it wasn't a fuel related incident, it was a pure and simple pilot fuck up. They ran simulations pretending if the inertial based navigation system had been given the wrong coordinates at Seoul, what kind of path it would have plotted on the navigation given the mistake. They found that if they reversed two of the digits for the coordinate at Soeul airport, the flight path looked remarkably like what they actually saw. Of course, the subsequent radio transmissions in wrong locations weren't picked up because some other aircraft relayed their position.
Asian pilots get a bonus for the number of pounds of fuel saved. Wonder if U.S. Airways should introduce this for their pilots...
Fuel is hardly U.S. Air's biggest problem. What about a paycut for pilots who don't achieve certain prescribed fuel savings? That's what needs to be done, but donig that will probably break the airline, but then that's not to say that the airline isn't already broken enoyugh anyway...
AEM7
Officially, there was and never be any final word. Remember the souls lost of the USS Liberty ECM ship who died at the hands of Isreali fighter pilots. Remember the sailors of the USS Pueblo ECM ship incarcerated in a North Korean prison camp. 'Spying' is nasty and dirty business...KAL flight 007 had airframe fitted with sophisticated photographic equipment...no ECM to tweek up shore batteries...the object was to overfly the shore of Sakholin Island...a former Northernmost Province of Japan where islanders have been held as impressed labor since the end of WW2...and take pictures.
The pilots had been doing course adjustments to save fuel and do an overfly for photographic recon which i'm sure added to their bonus. The whole thing was in the UN General Assembly...I heard the Russian Comm tapes and the translations. 'Sorry...ees one beeg mistake.'
Turns out is it not uncommon for Asian airlines to overload aircraft to make an extra buck...just examine some of the crashes in the phillipines. The KAL 007 debacle opened a can of worms no one remembers or cares about today. Fuel usage is predetermined by past experience and weather...you cannot punish the pilots for flying an aircraft against weather and headwind. CI Peter
It's a scheduled charter flight ... dunno the details, don't really care. All I know is that it's an arrangement made so that the airport can be called an "international" airport. Don't mind me, I'm not really into planes or flying myself. Just went and checked and Air Canada flies some puddle jumper down for service to Montreal and Toronto apparently. I'd still rather take the train tho' ... :)
My dad and I were supposed to take the Montrealer once for a vacation (I was just finishing med school in Philly)- the year they had the rail strike. We wound up going to the Poconos instead...
Sorry you missed the chance. It's a lovely (though slow) ride and the run across the long long bridge just before you come into Montreal and underground is pretty nice as well. Best part of the ride though is the company of the other people on the train. MUCH nicer then even domestic runs ...
Best part of the ride though is the company of the other people on the train. MUCH nicer then even domestic runs ...
But they are Canadians! They are French! How could they possibly be nice!?
You're the one who admitted to never riding Amtrak long-distance... while I don't want to vouch for the integrity of those who ride the Sunset Limited and the Chief, you should at least ride the Lake Shore and the Pennsylvanian before you call Canadians Gods!!
Lake Shore, Party Train #449. All Aboard!
AEM7
Ummm ... bite me. I've done Chicago (Lake Shore) and I've done Boston, DC and Florida by Amtrak. And say what you will about the Canadians, EVEN le Quebecois have more cooth than most Americans. I've found Canadians to be clean, polite, friendly and very tolerant. Considering that they have US as neighbors, that's a good thing. And they often have highly amusing opinions of our ... "leadership." :)
Bottom line, they're FUN.
My apologies, given that you had done the LSL. I guess I mis-remembered.
I've found Canadians to be clean, polite, friendly and very tolerant.
Then we agree about the Canadians. It is precisely for these reasons I hate the Canadians. Canadians are charming, out-of-the-way nice, and probably "cleaner" than us. They are not real. They are full of shit, and they are nice to the extent that you want to puke and they are so nice that you feel bad about putting them back in their place.
The Brits think that about the Americans (that the Americans are too nice and Hollywood-like), and I hate to think what they would think of Canadians.
The suburbs are really "clean, nice, polite, and friendly". I chose the City.
AEM7
Heh. You've got to get out of the city, boy. Canadians are just like my neighbors around here. With one exception. Upstate New Yorkers ARE New Yorkers after all, they're polite but unlike our neighbors to the north, they pack HEAT. :)
Yeah, did the LSL with some buddies of mine. Always a cab ride on that trip. At least to Cleveland. Had to go back with the geese into the Windy city itself. Been a few years. And as to Canada, I've learned that I had to keep an eye on my own behavior when across the border as they're easily offended but won't TELL you that you offended them. And Montreal is as international a city as there is. Growing up in New York, it was familiar and MUCH cleaner.
And as to Canada, I've learned that I had to keep an eye on my own behavior when across the border as they're easily offended but won't TELL you that you offended them.
If you like that, you should go to England. England is like Canada but 20 times more so. I hated England, and that's why I bailed for the Great White North. Well, Great White Northeast at the moment, but I hope soon that would be North.
I hated the English for being easily offended. I hated the English for not telling you they are offended. I hated the English for being so damned polite. I am damned polite too, in some quarters... but at least I'm not phoney about it. People say New Englanders are hard to get to know... Canadians, worse; English, even worse.
For my part, I like the Prairies. Upfront and honest, as long as you aren't talking about their private life... a smile means a smile, not a smile with a knife in your backside...
AEM7
Different cultures have different values, but generally they're not so different anywhere that I couldn't see myself getting along just fine. I kinda draw the line at Taliban and those here in the US that would want to EMULATE the Taliban ... but you'll find many places here in the states that'll make you remember Britain fondly. It's a BIG country - all kinda pipples. :)
Quebecois are nice to your face, then mutter something behind your back...
Wow and in New York they don't do that right :-)
In New York they say top your face "You shut up. If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
Up front with guts stinkin Vichy pigs don't have.
Yeah, true...
Quest-ce que cest? Fetchez la vache! :)
I guess it all depends on whether you're willing to meet them half way. I've had WONDERFUL times in Montreal. I suppose you get what you give. Pictures of President Franklin are tres chic. Heh.
I'm not suggesting that you can't have a wonderful time in Montreaq, in fact Montreaq is quite the cultural city. However that doesn't mean I like their culture, their people, or their attitude. I love the Canadian Rockies, it's a pity that they are part of the same country as scums of Toronto and Quebeque.
AEMque
What can I say? I guess some of us just can't play nice with others which is why we have morons lobbing bombs in so many places around the planet. Growing up in NYC, I learned that lumping groups of people into a category will cause you to have no friends, that the actions of the occasional loose wingnut have no bearing on everyone else in that pigeonhole grouping. I have good friends from Vancouver to Moosejaw to Calgary to Toronto to St John's.
But I'm starting to see why you admire Texas. :)
Agreed. But it's fun to poke fun at them in private...
The fun is good when directed with good faith. 'In the Hole, In the Hole, SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!' The crew bites me in their broken English, 'Speak English!' So I'm doing troubles and my partner catches a supervisor: 'Blubblubblubblub inspection blubblub TTs blub AC compressor.' Not very nice...so maybe I don't have the experience but I received the EPA refrigeration license upon the first examination and want to learn more. My point has and always been...English is the language of instruction and safety. CI Peter
>>> Pictures of President Franklin are tres chic <<<
That just goes to show how poor American public education is. We were never even taught about the presidency of Franklin (or Hamilton either) in the schools I attended.:-)
Tom
What did Franklin do during his presidency?
AEM7
He made $20 bills ... VERY popular with the cabbies up in Montreal. :)
Hamilton was one of my personal favorites. But reading the "Federalist papers" is considered AntiAmerican these days. :)
For those powered by radial piston engines, you are correct.
That statement probably also holds for passenger aircraft utilizing pure axial-flow turbojets. An occasional French Caravelle, I'm told, can be found at Kennedy, and Airborne Express' old DC-8's still exist for freight service, but the rest are diappearing from North America.
An occasional French Caravelle, I'm told, can be found at Kennedy
It can? As far as I know, the only Caravelles still in service are with a few third-world airlines, none of which operate in the United States.
You are correct. Moreover, there really are only a few left. But remember that Kennedy has probably more third-world airline desks than any other US airport, so the third-world airliners do come here. Also, you may see a Caravelle which has been relegated to charter or cargo service.
The Caravelle was a very decent airliner for its time, a worthy competitor to early jets like the Convairs and early DC-9's and the 727-100.
TWA Express uses prop planes, I took one to Virginia Beach once. Unless they've changed since the mid 90s?
Skipping the responses, I have years of experience in alternate energy sources. I built a solid cedar (four inch thick machined timber wall) passive solar Justus-Lindal home with 344 square feet of double insulated low E glass. No natural gas line or propane...HS Tarms multifuel furnace set for #1/#2 oil and wood burning. No active solar system...too expensive and too problem prone when you are away. I use #1/2 HH oil/kerosene/diesel in the oil burner.
J1 jet fuel is ultra refined kerosene. #1/2 HH oil is 'stripped diesel.' #1/2 diesel has hectane additives and anti fungal agents (there is a fungus that thrives in light fuel oils.) Vegetable oils have plus and minus....renewable source but leave harmful deposits and cost more than fossil fuels...special filters are required. Until fossil fuels are cost prohibitive, veggy oil is only for the 'Mother Earth' crowd.
BTW: did my research into alternative motor fuels too....McD french fry oil can run a diesel IF exceptionally filtered with an additive.
John Deere 'Johnny Popper' two cylinder tractors can run on gasoline/diesel/naptha/paint thinner/veggy oil. CI Peter
"No natural gas line or propane...HS Tarms multifuel furnace set for #1/#2 oil and wood burning. No active solar system...too expensive and too problem prone when you are away. I use #1/2 HH oil/kerosene/diesel in the oil burner."
Even if you keep the burner in tip-top shape, you will have particulant and sulfur emissions which you would not have with natural gas. When I bought a house and fitted it with a new roof, I ripped out the old oil burner (it was damaged and beyond repair anyway) and installed natural gas, in part to to protect the roof. My roof has a white elastomer coating. Keeps my kitchen 20 degrees below outdoor summer temps without air conditioning.
Wood is even worse, pollution-wise.
Thanks for the info on the fungus. Fascinating.
I do not harvest and burn wood....too messy. What I do contrary to the 'waste carters' affirmations is burn my garbage in the furnace saving thirty dollars a month....the 'hick-ass twanging locals' stench the air with 55 gallon drum burnings. We do not have gas mains
up in Warren County, New Jersey and I will NOT use propane for water heating....LP is heavier than air and any leak is a ticking bomb. I do check the burner every week...when the plumber set up the furnace he had the wrong nozzle and it overburned without piercing the casing...wasted the cast iron isolation shields. When the 'collapse' does come, I have eight acres of active woodland...the 'trick is to escape New York City.'
One thing missing about home heating fuels....the residue is caustic!
I assembled two huge TV antenna arrays on the chimney...one for VHF channels 2 through 13 and a biggie for UHF with a microwave pre amp.
The smoke residue eats the electric connections...even ate the rivets off the lower UHF TV antenna relector and it fell off! DISH is good when you want a sparkly free picture and not hunting for 525 line resolution.
BTW: my roof with basic shingles is R37 Arctic Environment....house heating system shuts down in winter with passive solar BUT summer heat does get held in...have two rollaway air conditioners.
"When the 'collapse' does come, I have eight acres of active woodland...the 'trick is to escape New York City.'"
Collapse? Are you waiting for some evil conspiracy to come and take out the US?
Of course not! We've gone through tough times...riots, blackouts, a major snowstorm that halted NYC 'cold' and the World Trade Center destruction. Working for TA is excellent and stable work but at the rate things are going, a major economic 'collapse' is not so far fetched. Such a collapse would never match the Depression but would put millions out of work and just a few might turn to 'bad ways' to make ends meet. I believe in our economic system despite my shareholding losses...the electricity will flow, the phones will ring and the TRAINS WILL MOVE. CI Peter
As the rudderless economy becomes more and more visible even to ostriches, I suspect there will be "regime change" before your visions come to pass. Still, we're fattening up our wild turkeys, Bambi and her friends just in case. :)
I don't consume meat anymore. I have Bambi, wild turkeys, BEAR,groundhogs, squirrels, mourning doves and a whole lot more of the zoo about. Now, if you could tell me how to grind em up like 'Soylent Green'....got photovoltaics and storage batteries, homebrew 2 KW alternator, ammonia absorbtion refrigerator, lots of wood, 2 KW HF radio, busted tractor, 4WD Jeep........CI Peter
Heh. There's nothing like fresh Pheasant from the Pheasant Phresh Pheasant Pharm. I wouldn't eat the Bambis though, dunno where the meat's been lately. But who needs McDisney when there's BISONBURGERS! Yum. :)
And nothing like getting woken up in the middle of the night by the snoring of a black bear below your bedroom window. Thought we had a "guest" in need of a meal out there. Went out, flipped on the light and the little guy bolted off into the night. STRANGE snoring though. Between you and I though I think we're scaring the crap out of our city cuzzins. Heh.
So I'm walking about the driveway....the patch of evergreen seedlings
bunked in for future plantings are thirty feet high. I'm standing unarmed...I hear a nasal discharge. Thinking, thinking.......sh....
the big buck is standing on the other side of the tree where I'm at.
Jump up and scream...sucker can't ram me with a tree between us. Mom caught site of a bear sitting on my tractor...probably 'Yogi' from NJ Jenny Jump State Park. Winch 70 30-06 is always a fixr...bear is not protected species anymore. Moss 500ATP 12 gauge is 8 plus 1...maggie buckshot leaves little to be desired!
Bears? Feh. As long as you keep your property clean, they come through, they trudge on. I was saddened to hear about the baby that got scrafed up down south of here, gotta be careful never to leave food around for them or they move in and don't pay rent. Haven't had to shoot at anything since I moved here and hope to maintain that record.
But they're VERY irritating at Halloween when they ring the doorbell dressed up like cub scouts looking for treats. :)
You live up there with thems/thoses peoples? Wasn't the bears fault a tasty morsel was left behind....yellow Cherios boxes make better food targets! CI Peter knows animal control....CLAYMORE RULES by remote control. SK to the yard!
I live *way* north of Sullivan county, way north of Ulster county, up where the bears are registered to VOTE. :)
Rule number one when living amongst the animules is you NEVER provide human food for them. EVER. You don't litter, and your garbage is kept LOCKED and away from them to prowl. If camping, you keep your food IN the car, you keep the doors locked (because bears DO know how to open car doors) and you never leave anything that smells good near where YOU are. Damned shame what happened though down there, apparently the campers didn't know the rules. Bears are normally quite fearful of humans but as long as we keep enticing them with food to come closer to us and hang out, there's unfortunately going to be more of these unfortunate episodes. You don't feed the animals (or they become dependent) and you don't feed terrorists or trolls.
But like I said, so far, haven't had the need to shoot at anything.
Now I know how your buddy Joe keeps getting elected -- Bruins for Bruno.
Between the bears and the Wal*Mart crowd ... of course it'd be nice if there was someone running against him, but it's real hard to put a second picture on the Rensselaer/Saratoga county ballot. :)
Here's the lowdown on HHF and diesel: as far as BTU output per consumer use, they're pretty close. HHF#1/diesel#1/kerosene are light aromatics compared with HHF#2/diese#2 and are more like solvents...chuck twenty gallons of diesel into an unmaintained oil burner fuel tank and it'll dissolve all the bottom crap and your burners pump will be clogged. During a winter freeze that belayed oil delivery I hand-carried 440 gallons of diesel...one container broke in my company car back seat and I never got rid of the smell. The higher the fuel oil number, the higher the BTU output and the thicker the fuel is. NYC apartment buildings use #5/#6/bunker oil that requires the use of a heated tanker truck...the stuff stinks and can look like jelly...diesel contains anti fungal and anti gel agents along with hctane boosters.
1972 fuel tech 101: diesel engines. #1/#2 HHF and diesel are pretty much the same....HHF is NOT taxed for on the road use and you could siphon your HHF tank to run your VW diesel rabbit. HHF does NOT have diesel engine fuel additives or anti fungal agents....truckers would cut their D1/2 fuel with un-road taxed kerosene K1 as a winterising agent...New Jersey required by law a powerful red dye in untaxed K1...adding just a little bit would disclose a 'tax cheat' to highway inspectors.
Thanks for that info.
On the same token, how efficient were steam-powered engines? I know they're ancient and slow but actually how fast was it and what trains did they pull around in New England?
Also, how do vehicles use compressed Natural Gas for power? I know some NJT and misc. buses use this. How frequent is the fill-up?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Also, how do vehicles use compressed Natural Gas for power? I know some NJT and misc. buses use this. How frequent is the fill-up?
The engine is the same as a diesel engine, the tank has to be pressurized because it's a gas, you can't just put it in a tub and have it float like gasoline or diesel fuel.
Vehicles use LPG as a vapor and CNG as a gas. Carbouration mixes liquid fuel with air and produces a vapor. Fuel injection makes the conversion much simpler...a pressure regulator to prevent high pressure of combustible gas from 'flooding' the engine, some fittings and hoses and a few hardware/software mods. Original honda Civic CVCC banged a two cylinder motorcycle engine for 55 MPG. A Pogue carbouration system in an eight cylinder car got 200 MPG...what it did was convert gasoline into a pure gas for complete combustion...catalyctic converters in the exhaust system today burn off unburned fuel. Pogue had one major drawback besides size...gassified gasoline qualifies as a class C explosive...one spark and you go to Redbird Heaven.
What is a class C explosive?
Explosives are classified by the US DOT into three classes. Class A explosives are such materials as TNT and Dynamite. Class B covers heavy pyrotechincs such as skyrockets, starshells and other professional display fireworks. Class C would be common fireworks such as firecrackers, roman candles, and bottle rockets. I am surprised to find that totally vaporized gasoline isn't classed higher. One gallon of gasoline, weighing 6 lbs, properly vaporized, has the explosive force of 40 pounds of dynamite.
Circa 1972 Energy Tech 101. Liquid petroleum gas (a recovered by product from refineries) could be used to power gasoline engines. It took two gallons of LPG to equivilate one gallon of gasoline. LPG is clean burning but requires double fuel weight and HAS NO LUBRICATION ADDITIVES. CNG is better but reqiores tanks to hold 2000psi...I do not know the potential milage of that fuel but it is probably not much better than LPG. Very simple comparison based upon BTU output per gallon: gasoline 30 miles, diesel #2 60 miles, LPG 15 miles, CNG 18 miles. I would estimate fill up is the same...really big tanks ride high on roof busses.
CNG is delivered to vehicles as a high pressure gas. Since it is not a liquid like LPG or refrigerants like Freon, it takes up a lot of space hence the higher roofline on CNG busses. CNG fueled vehicles require 3000psi rated fuel tanks. Carbouration requires special modifications to accept CNG or LPG...modern fuel injected vehicles using gasoline or diesel are a bit simpler because the CPU oxygen sensor makes adjustment. Crew don't bust my chops!!! I'm simplifying the concept... There is Liquid Natural Gas...very expensive to produce. It must be refrigerated...cold like liquid oxygen. Two insulated tanks were built in Staten Island at the cost of several lives. Never utilised...an explosion would waste SI, Brooklyn, lower Manhattan and part of NJ.
Personally, I love straight alcohol. Cheap, easy to make, clean burning (has no lubricants,) BTU a little less than gasoline but tends to absorb water. Good drinking fuel too, 'eees propulsky' but harder to start on cool days. CI Peter
I thought CNG tanks are ONLY on the top since in a accident a CNG tank exploding underneth will filp the bus upside down in addition to "Roast Homo Sapien Ala Carte". The location where the fuel tank would be is empty (NYC orions). Are you saing that there are also CNG tanks where the Diesel tank would be?
Fuel overload!
What is HH, HHF, Kerosene, Diesel 1D, 2d, #2 fuel oil (what we use)?
Actually are there any websites dedicated to pertrolium devervatives? I find stuff intersting.
The only problem w/ Natural Gas for heating is 1, its explosive and 2, you can't store it on site at your house. If something happens to your gas connection or if there is a nuclear war, you'll be left out in the cold. The best solution is an underground 1000-2000 gallon tank in your yard (my neighbor has one dating from the 20's) and a reserve 250-500 gal tank of gasoline in your basement to run a generator.
You could run NG station with 1000-2000 gallons for about a week.
isn't desil exucest take more time to be processed by mother nature than wood fire?
December 8, 2002: Advance notice-NYCT Red Bird Trip by NYDiv-ERA
More details as they become available... Stay tune!
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!! Keep us Informed. I wonder what kind of cars will be used?? gggggggrrrrrrrrrhhhhhh I hate the cold weather. R 33 8840
It's a Sunday! Yay! I'll try to be there.
--Brian
By THEN... Very likely several of us will have
held/thrown our OWN Redbird Fan Trips... :)
Any Idea which redbirds will be used? Back on May 26th they used 1 pair of ML R 36s (9532/3) and 4 WF R 33 singles.
NJ Transit has 69 Comet 1's for sale the cars are the Pullman built cars 9 have toilets.
the price ranges from $10 k to 25 k
Details at http://www.marketplace.irail.com
NJ Transit has 69 Comet 1's for sale the cars are the Pullman built cars 9 have toilets.
the price ranges from $10 k to 25 k
Details at http://marketplace.irail.com
According to documents I have seen on the net, the City partially funded a subway tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island under the Narrows as part of the Dual Contracts. The tunnel was started but never finished.
Why not? Did the BRT's financial woes during WWI and later after Malbone Street kill it? Did Hylan kill it? It seems like the project was a fairly simple one. The tunnel could have emerged on the SI side at St. George and share the tracks with the SI Railroad. As it stands today, the SIR is woefully underused.
The tunnel was planned for some time, and work did begin in 1923, as to what killed it? Some say the financial hardshp the tunnel would create, others say the city.
One thing is certain: The B&O purchased a fleet of BRT Standard cars, to MU with the BRT fleet, and tunnel headings can still be seen directly south of 59th Street for this connection.
Shame it wasn't built.
The SIRT cars were consciously patterned on BMT Standards but, ironically, they couldn't MU, if for no other reason than that the Standards had H2A couplers while the SIRT cars used H2Cs, which wouldn't MU with them.
I suppose something could have been done to have them MU, but when the cars came to the TA no effort was made and they always ran by themselves.
I don't think the SIRT MUE-1 cars have H2C couplers. The A vs the C
designation has to do with the type of air brake system the coupler
is designed to handle. The H2A expects a 90-110 psi main reservoir
pipe, always charged, on the top tappet valve and the brake pipe,
0-70 psi, on the bottom. The H2C works with SMEE, having the brake
pipe on the bottom still, but always charged with 110psi (except in
emergency), and the straight air pipe on top, which varies from 0-110
psi. As a result, the H2C includes an internal reservoir to supply
the air to move the cutting piston, whereas the H2A draws the air
from the main reservoir pipe via an internal relay valve. The H2A
also requires an external brake pipe closing check vavle, while the
H2C head has this feature internalized.
So, I believe the SIRT car is an H2A head. However, the electric
portion, which can be changed independently, is different between
the BMT cars and the SIRT cars. The TA could have MU'd the cars
by replacing the portions on the SIRT cars with spares from the AB
fleet and making a few minor wiring changes, but I guess it was
not worth it.
Incidentally, the same retired transit cop who is big on the 76
St station has shown me newspaper clippings concerning the Staten
Island tunnel. Evidently a few hundred foot length was
constructed on the Brooklyn end, and he knows someone who has
gone in there. Not much to see and the lower portions are flooded.
I've read that the S.I. end never got beyond shafts being dug, and later on they were filled in with the dirt from the Verazzano Bridge construction.
I wonder what happened to the IND version of a subway to Staten Island where it was supposed to leave the F line around Prospect Park SW-15 St somewhere and go down Fort Hamilton Parkway toward New York Bay?
That part of system II died also with all the $$ problems with system I.
My version was leaving Church and MacDonald, going downstair (relay track) and onto Bay Parkway to SI.
You must be right. I checked the 1925 specs on the SIRT cars and it does indeed say H2A.
Now I'm wondering whether it was TA engineering or SIRT that told me nearly 40 years ago (yikes!) that it was H2C.
When the ex-SIRT cars arrived on TA property, chances are there may not have been enough spare BMT standard electric portions available. The BMT division needed every steel car it could get its hands on in the mid-50s. You're probably right - since we're talking about only 25 motor cars and five trailers which were never used in revenue service, it probably wasn't worth the time and effort to rework them.
The Staten Island tunnel was explicitly included but not funded in the Dual Contracts. I don't know much about the details of the abortive tunnel heading start in the '20s, but, as to that part of the "project," it was yet another rail project that died, not so much because of some active "killing" of it, but from failure to fund and proceed.
There's an oft-quoted story that the unlikely conspiracy of Mayor John Hylan and Governor Alfred E. Smith killed the Staten Island subway tunnel. Hylan, of course, hated the BRT/BMT companies, and Smith allegedly owned significant Pennsylvania RR stock. Remember that the Staten Island Rapid was a Baltimore and Ohio property, and the B & O was the Pennsy's arch rival in what today would be called the Northeast Corridor. The Staten Island subway tunnel would have no doubt increased the B&O's stock and possibly depressed the value of the Pennsy's stock.
So these two politicians, both Democrats but not necessarily allies, conspired to kill the Staten Island tunnel project for ever.
Informed sources tell me that the The Concourse Yard has no power....at this time....details as they develop.
Peace,
ANDEE
WOWWW! Imagine just sippin' a cool one with a slight breeze...no power...no full inspections or heavy troubles...just a days pay!! The very opposite of 'Redbird Undercar' or 'Emergency Root Canal.' AND my tooth is still throbbing. CI Peter
yea, REALLY
PEACE,
ANDEE
No big loss, they didn't pay the electric bill. They had a bad habit of leaving the scrap car's A/C running so I'm sure they earned their just deserts.
No big loss, they didn't pay the electric bill. They had a bad habit of leaving the scrap car's A/C running so I'm sure they earned their just desserts.
Looks like Steve forgot to pay the light bill....LOL
This just in???? It happened at 9 AM. A 600 volt feeder blew up under the maintenance shop. Power was partially restored before the PM rush to get trains out of the yard. Power was restored tot he maintenance shop at 9:40 PM but yard power is still officially out. Lay-ups may have to sleep at the Main-Line Motel tonight.
I guess no mints on their third-rail shoes tonight.
:0)
No mints on mine either. I reached home just a short time ago. just time for a shower, a nap and then back to the wide world of trains.
Water intrusion into the vault, no doubt? Looks like da Bronx got a bit of water over the last few days, so that'd be my guess. Unless of course you invited CI Peter over with his can of RAID to entice a few bugs outta de hole. :)
Yup, water, water everywhere. Of course it doesn't help that back in 1930, the braintrust of their day built Concourse yard in what was supposed to be a reservoir. We do hold water very well.
Heh. Know the neighborhood QUITE well ... attended DeWitt Clinton for four years. I guess the real estate was an offer the railroad couldn't refuse. :)
Hey, Shea Stadium was built on top of a garbage dump. The way the Mets have been playing lately, it's only fitting.
Hey hey hey hey HEY! They STILL got soul. If the Mets didn't suck, there'd be no miracles, bro. :)
Well, there was a miracle in 1969. We'll never see anything like that again.
Sure we will ... what's that motto? "Ya gotta believe?" And of course, "Next year." ... ya see, you don't HAVE to win to have SOUL. :)
Hey, give me a break...I just report the news as I get it. BTW, I understand that power was restored by 2200. Is this correct?
Peace,
ANDEE
Power was restored at 22:00 and back out about 01:30. It was restored a track at a time to get the AM put-outs out but 2 #4s didn't make it before the power went again. Permanent temporary repairs were done about 13:00 today - I hope.
Permanent temporary. I like that phrase.
Yeah, that's a good one.
It's not an uncommon situation. A case in point. This is a true story. While TA employees will understand it - for the rest of you, I assure you, this actually happened.
About this time of year, during the first year of the west nile virus scares (2 years ago?), there was a flood in Concourse Yard all the way in the back - near Lehman College. I went to investigate and found a fire hydrant was leaking significantly and the water was pooling. I called the plumbers who gave the call a very low priority. Finally, in desperation, I played the 'West Nile' card and called System Safety.
Within a few minutes, the plumber's control desk called me to find out what the problem was. I explained about the broken hydrant. I also told them specificly that I would have dealt with the problem myself but I needed a 'Tee' wrench to shut the hydrant off. They said someone would be dispatched immediately. I told him to make sure they had a 'Tee' Wrench.
About 90 minutes later the plumbers, all 5 of them showed up. I explained to one of them what the problem was and showed him where the leak was. He told the other 4 to relax because he was going to take care of the problem. About 20 minutes later he returned from the yard. I asked him , "Everything okay?" He replied, "we'll be back later!" I dreaded to ask the obvious but did. He replied, "We have to go back for the Tee wrench."
Ever deal with OGS? (Office of General Services) These guys were PROs compared to some of my own horror stories that wouldn't be on topic for here. But OGS wouldn't have KNOWN what a "tee" was, and they would have required the formation of a study group to develop specifications for one regardless of whether it was already sitting on a shelf. :)
CI Peter learns and knows........Concourse was once a resevoir. Meida Boriquen...fourty shoe beams to do tonight on R142s. BeH got the MS to check last nights inspections....six of ten cars needed redo of 'current collectors.'
BeH learned well !!!
BeH learned well!! Same MS went after us at 5AM using another shoebeam gauge and busts my chops after I explain the tekky stuff...he's a bookey ...partner comes by with team #1s gauge and we're on the money. BeH calls CI calibration and the truck comes by..both gauges are worn, remain in spec BUT the results between the two are NOT comparable. Condemnedable instrumentation....did metrology too! My partner and I did the work properly with tools not in spec.....still working on how to use a four way caliper in place of a wheel gauge....flange wear is a problem. CI Peter
You missed the blow-out at the 239th shape up office. The building has been treated for asbestos abatement and the flat roof poured straight down into the office upon desks and computers. McK went flippo....putting up safety barriers, PPE signage and 'If you want to be pee'd upon, stand here.' Helmets and respirators are required PPE equipment. I know I came from private industry working for 'cheapos'
that didn't 'fifth degree' my expenses because I'm frugal (cheap) but I cannot believe that TA upper management is trying to save pennies when we have a system to run! One thing the group will appreciate is that the Redbird records I updated were unscathed. Where does TA find these contractors?
Haven't you seen those people on sidewalks outside Jay Street..."Will do construction for food"? :-)
Main impression: why does the R142 completey suck you-know-what in comparison? The R143 automated announcement volume are set to a reasonable level, and the digital signs inside the cars flash the important informaton (route/nextstop/time) much faster.
I had originally not placed any priority on riding the R143 because I thought it was merely a longer, wider R142. Now I await the R160 order with a lot less trepidation.
Sidenote....their AC even works better!
The 143 is a newer car (though not by much), and Kawasaki is the builder. Kawasaki's stuff works "right out of the box."
The R143 is superior to Kawasaki's R142, IMHO. The R143's internal walls are made of a darker greyish fiberglass which makes for a more ambient lighting.
Everything I hated in the R142 was corrected on the R143. It was as if the bigwigs at Kawasaki read my mind.
Sounds good.
Can't wait to seem'em on the J.
"Everything I hated in the R142 was corrected on the R143."
Obviously the R142 and R142A were not prototypes like the R110 series, but certainly a company like Kawasaki (and hopefully others) will learn from any mistakes that were made in a previous order. -Nick
I will let you know how it is to Operate one for a full day if I get one the Sunday 9/8/02
Robert
Ok...I hope you do get one! -Nick
I was on a R-143 twice today, from Bway-ENY to Rockaway Pkwy., I was in Car #8176 around 2:40 pm and coming back I was in Car #8130 around 4:45 pm. Altogether, so far I've ridden a R-143 3 times.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
I rode it from Broadway Jnctn. to Union Square, getting on at approx. 1:50 PM. It was preceeded by a new set in "test train" service. I was x-ferring from the A and I saw the test train coming, and I ran up the ramp and over the stairs to the Manhattan-bound platform for nothing. Grrrr....
At Broadway I trasferred from the A Train.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
If Jerome yard has been modified for R142A maintainance just for those 7 trains which will replace the Redbirds, why not just make the #4 line all R142A? The R62's can be sent to the 7 and the 1 and 3 lines. R62's on the 7 will enable the TA to flush all the redbirds out the system, accomplishing its goal. Extra R62/A's can be used in place of the redbirds as backup and fleet expansion.
What do you think? All Stipulation Welcome.
The R62's and R62A's are similar Maintainance wise, Right? A yard which has a mixed R62/A fleet shouldn't have many maintainance issues , or would it?
Actually, the R-62 and R-62A are very different, maintenance-wise. They look almost the same, but the big stuff (propulsion and braking) is by different manufacturers and have a host of different parts.
David
Perhaps making the 7 all R62A, and making the 1 or 3 all R62 Is an option? Didn't the TA think about fleet commonality when only replacing the redbirds? Going through all the trouble of training and yard modifications sounds incredibly wasteful only for 7 trains.
I didn't know the 7 was going to get R142's. I thought the 7 was to become all R62's or R62A's
Don't worry. NYCT didn't know that, either.
David
If Jerome yard has been modified for R142A maintainance just for those 7 trains which will replace the Redbirds, why not just make the #4 line all R142A?
Actually, after reading his post again, it sounds like he did a typo and actually meant "4" instead of 7, since he was talking about Jerome yard. It confused the hell out of me though, but the post makes a little more sense now if you substitue the "7" with a 4.
Sorry everyone, I should have clarified: there will be seven R142A's assigned to the #4 line.
i thought they only came in sets of 5
or do you mean 7 ten car trains....
70 R142A cars will be assigned to the #4 line.
He meant seven trains, not the "number 7 subway line" :)
Yeah, I just figured that out too......makes more sense now.
The plan is for the 4 to be the only line with a mixed fleet. The 1/9 will be all R-62A's, the 2 will be all R-142's, the 3 will be all R-142's, the 5 will be all R-142's, the 6 will be all R-142A's, and the 7 will be all R-62A's.
What benefit would there be in sending the R-62's somewhere other than the 4? If the extra R-142A's needed came off the 6, what would replace them?
great news guys! i called my boss at MTA Metro North Railroad. she said she is speaking to medical department and this week she should be calling me back with a new position. she mentioned custodian, but i dont care because a job with MTA is still a good job. thank you all for ur support!
Good for you!
Congrats! If they don't pull the same nonsense they're pulling at transit, there's still the ability to move up once you're been at it a while ...
Some of us got to discussing McDonald's a few days ago. I thought I'd share this story as a follow-up. It's an example of adjustments to market demand, and one that probably was fairly expensive. We'll see if it works out.
Cargill is one of the world's largest producers of oils, sweeteners etc. and McD is probably its biggest single customer.
http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-biz-fries.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
I'll go back if they start serving Bisonburgers -- American Meat.
Still not so off-topic......McBagget remains the #1 fuel source for TA train crews! So I was sick from the heat an for the first time on the job I went MikkyD....six bucks for a big fry and a milkshake! What ever happened to the 'change from my dollar?' CI Peter
Mcdonalds is MAD expensive. Wendy's is a much better value.
Maybe so, but I really don't want to be in a store holdup thank you very much.
Huh? Wendy's gets robbed more than McDonald's?? I don't get it.
The flushing Wendys massacre...
Shmuck, that could happen ANYWHERE. It didn't happen because it was a Wendy's, it happened because it was a cash business in a busy area.
-Hank
Evil, harm, injury and even death can occur anywhere at anytime. This is a reality of law enforcement...some people are assumed to be relatively docile and make better targets for criminals. The Wendys incident was a-typical...what did happen was that the store personell
did NOT resist and the crooks panicked. Cash businesses operated by docile 'immigrants' are prime targets...better to eat from the 'ziplock' than to place yourself in harms way. All kidding aside, 7-11 convienence stores and 'fast food chains' in areas of high immigrant population are 'high risk environments' to be avoided.
You'll pay more to eat at them because of the higher potential 'loss risk.' Seven bucks for fries and a shake at McD....I'll freeze my vanilla yogurt and nuke Shoprite fries.
>>> The flushing Wendys massacre... <<<
Some people have short memories. That was no where near as bad as the San Ysidro, California Mc Donalds massacre a few years ago.
Tom
That's an islated incident. Completely irrelvant to the real fact at hand.
Many people say that McDonalds' fries haven't been the same since they stopped frying them in beef tallow some years ago.
one thing i will say i loved about working for Mcdonalds is i saw sooo many Transit workers it drove me nutz!
Nothing like being able to light a fry like a candle at both ends!!!
Of course the Hindi Veggy population has a problem with fries processed with MOOOOOOOOO! Not too many of them as train crew...no McBagget for them...they're all CAR INSPECTORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CI Peter
Do they speak English?
That's true. They taste a bit different. Beef tallow carries flavor very well.
Ok for testing only.....
Tell me what you think
I think Pirmann created a PREVIEW
feature for this purpose.???
nice red X.
Here's what you get if you right click on the Red X:
FORBIDDEN
You don't have permission to access /storage/1/v5/2/67/42/46426742sEcKAk_ph.jpg on this server.
Apache/1.3.22 Server at c4.webshots.com Port 80
I give up lol
Nice picture. What station is that?
Peace,
ANDEE
What? Did you see it. Others did not?
He probably clicked "view source" to get the link and then manually see the photo.
That's what I did. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
At shows up when I'm at work (ATM line to the cloud). However it fails at home (dial up 56K running at 33.6). I right click on the photo (or red X) to get properties and source. Then a cut and paste of the photo (http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v5/2/67/42/46426742sEcKAk_ph.jpgd) to see a D type rounding a curve and entering a station. What station is it?
here is a test !!
AND IT WORKS !! hee hee lol
lol lol lol
I would like date confirmations on the following events:
1- The date of the NJT Try Transit Festival...I got 9/29/2002 as the date for it. Is this still the date?
2- The day of the D-type Triplex trip being sometime in the third week in september...when is it again? I forgot from looking at older posts...
3- The Metro-North Open House being 10/19/2002. Is this the final date or does anyone know yet?
Many thanks for anyone who responds with the answers...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"I'm going, if it's the last thing I do!"
1) Correct
2) 22
3) 19 I think is kind of preliminary but that's what I have too
Many thanks to ya, Clayton...many thanks...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Festivals Galore!"
And NY Days at Branford is Sat/Sun Sept. 28/29.
Come ride old stuff from NYC (trolleys, el & subway cars)
And Subtalk Day at Branford is on Sunday Oct. 13!
Right, the R-9 #1689 moaning & groaning as only she can do while riding in the company of some of your friends, isn't life great !
See the coming events for more details.
Sign up in advance with Steve, or Sparky.
Ah Hem!
I think that Dave is way ahead of you.
Try Up Coming Events on this site!
: ) Elias
Ya see, Elias...
If you looked at the post more carefully, I wanted date confirmations, not to tell everyone when things are..., but thanks...
Cleanairbus
Ok I called today and spoke to the union seems they have no comment on the off the street T/O test.To which I replied What good are you anyway.I was not satisfied! I called for 3 hours straight and finally talked to Mr Tousaaint ,he said they have no input on what tests DCAS offers,that he had NOT REALIZED that the test was put on the website.
He also stated and I quote "Its hard keeping up with every little detail".To that which I replied F YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!Screw you if your a little busy you have alot of angry people and you cant keep up with this.Then he should of never run for the title.To all those interested I tape recorded the Phone call Post that you want it and you will recieve an email with the voice of the traitor.New Directions My ass More like Same old direction.
Actually I would LOVE that tape. I have an employee newletter and the humor issue is coming up.
The test IS NOT on DCAS web site.
It is on the MTA site, I made the same assumption. If you notice the DCAS listings don't really cover the full year.
You know, I never wanted to go off on anyone, especially those like you who are in the right, but what the hell are you going to do about this? Union business isn't easy work. Management is always going to look for ways to screw you, and they found a way to do it and make you think it was your own flesh and blood who pulled the trigger. If you got all the balls in the world to tape a phone conversation, then you should be out there writing leaflets and handing out flyers. I wasn't the biggest Toussant supporter when I was a shop steward, as well as I wasn't the biggest Corrine Scott Supporter when I was a shop steward for the old regime. You can be angry all you want at Roger, you should take your anger to the division as well to keep them on their toes. Be careful about posting phone calls taped with or without consent. He has a lot more backing from union attorneys than a crew room lawyer. I'm not making him out to be a saint, but if you want the job done right, YOU run for a chair position and see what it really takes to keep you out of trouble.
First I had consent ,Second What makes you think I am not out there handind out buttons and fliers.Third I have been involved with this union for over 4 years from the ground up so I have seen the change from my own eyes.
C'mon, you expect me to believe that he actually knew he was being recorded, and, actually consented to his taped conversation of himself being told to F himself being placed on the web? And how am I to give you any credibility when you flip out and tell someone to F himself after he "didn't know"? Investigate his claims, prove he is a liar and you will win my sympathy. Until then I believe the TA promised the Union they would give a promotional, and then reneged. The union has been lied to by management. And we have been lied to by them, as well as the union, but until you can prove it, I wouldn't pay my dues to you. I have seen plenty of changes within my time, and unlike your 4 years, I worked under Sonny Hall, I like the present situation over the past hands down.
If you are still that mad I would check with DCAS in person and see if there is also a promotional version being offered around that time. BOTH DCAS schedules were incomplete on their web site.
If you are involved ask someone what happened at the AM special stewards meeting with the RTO people.
Even if one hand knew about this they were not about to tell the other hand.
That is why it is called 'New Directions.'
Unfortunately new direction is still the wrong direction.
Send ME an e-mail and I will post it in my shop. We have other incidents posted already. TWO years have elapsed and none of the 'bigwhigs' have shown up at 239th Yard. Why is it that the skilled/experienced titles make just a couple of bucks an hour above cleaners??? Sledgehammer Time has arrived......DC37 for the bottom and UAW for the top.
It's time for a rant:
Is it that time of year again? Yes it is! Introducing Autumn in NY to be held by the Branford Electric Railway Association, operator of the Shore Line Trolley Museum. Our annual activities take place on Saturday, September 28th and Sunday, September 29th. SubTalkers will have an opportunity to view and ride many of the cars that came from NYC.
What's your favorite? We've got a Brooklyn Trolley from 1906, a wooden Manhattan El Car from 1878, and a modern NYCTA steel subway car from 1955. You get this and much, much, more. So take an opportunity to visit the Shore Line Trolley Museum located in East Haven, CT. Take a special offer as a member! If you become one, you'll receive a lesson on how to operate a subway/trolley car of your choice at the end of regular operations. Don't miss out!
Many of the SubTalkers you know here will be in attendence. I'll be there both days in Uniform and Operating. BMTman, Thurston, JohnS, Lou from Brooklyn, and Jeff H. are just a few names to be there. Why don't you come out and meet us!
It will be great! Be there or be square! For further information, go to www.bera.org.
-------------------------
It's another shameless plug. BMTman and I are heading up today to work on R-17 Car 6688. Me thinks a Diamond of a Man and the local Station Agent will go shopping for goodies for the lady in red.... Yeah! I got to get her ready for 9/28. Hell, I know what I'll be doing, and that's playing subway car motorman for a day. Oh yes, and I'll also be running down the tracks of history in one of our beloved streetcars. Someone's got to entertain the millions, and the millions! I can't wait.
This Is My Lady In Red:
I hope to see everyone in a few weeks.
-Stef
Besides Stef's personal favorite we'll have operating:
- R-9 #1689
- Lo-V #5466
- Hi-V #3662
- Brooklyn Elevated #1227, from 1903
- Manhattan Elevated Car G (41), from 1878
- B&QT PCC #1001
- BRT Convertable trolley #4573, from 1906
- TARS trolley #629, recently back from Vienna
- Union Ry (Bronx) trolley #316, from 1895
Some of the above may be made up in trains.
Also on the property & accessable (for photos) will be:
- H&M #503
- SIRT #388
- BMT Standard #2775
- BRT Blind Trailer #197, from 1888
- Newark City Subway #27
- TARS trolley #220 from 1892 (was a cable & conduit car too)
- Nassau Elect/B&QT trolley #1792
- BRT MOW Plow #10
- TARS MOW Snow Sweeper #S-36
- IRT MOW Hose Car #53
And tours will probabaly be available to see the Mineola.
Mr rt__:^)
To continue the shameless plugs, the New York Division of the ERA is running its annual bus to Autumn in New York at the Shore Line Trolley Museum on Sunday, September 29th. The bus leaves Port Authority Bus Terminal at 9:00 am and Central Park Avenue at McLean in Yonkers at 9:30 am. Fare is $40 round-trip. For more info and reservations, call (212) 986-4482 on Mondays between 6:00 and 7:00 pm.
Sid, I hope my BusTalking friend is on that bus, as Branford has a few bues too AND recently some folks there are getting interested in getting them operational ... both the GM old looks were started recently by our friends at Double A.
Thanks for the shameless plug! I'm gonna see if my son would like to go.
BTW, methinks that's the first time I've ever seen an R-17 signed up as a 7. Did any R-17 cars ever run on the 7?
Yes they did, on two separate occasions. A group of R-17s ran on the 7 in the early 60s prior to the arrival of the R-36s, then when the WF R-33 singles went out for GOH, another group of R-17s filled in for them. They were even painted Fox Red; IIRC 6688 was included in that group.
Here are a few views from the 60s.
Check out those pasted-on side signs. Here's another:
Looks as if 6556 needs a paint job. Interestingly enough, those R-17s which ran there in the early 60s were usually intermixed with R-15s. This looks like a solid consist, although there may be some R-15s further back.
What is that in front of the R-17 in the first picture? It looks like a piece of work equipment.
-Stef
I think you're right. It does look like a work loco of some sort. Chances are the R-36s were being delivered to Corona Yard when that photo was taken.
Sign me up!
In the 60s, some R-17s were sent to the 7 to provide service.
A few R-17s returned in the 1980s to Flushing to fill in for R-33 singles undergoing overhaul.
-Stef
I'll be there on the 28th...
Also, see the Upcoming Events section on this website for information on the SubTalker Gathering at Branford on Sunday, 13 October, including a special charter of 1689. I'll be there for that as well, as will a number of other SubTalkers from far away places (Denver for one).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Count me in as well, all the way from Florida
Steve Loitsch
All T/O's and C/R's hired after 9/11 are required to operate a light train around South Ferry Loop to familiarize themselves with the route. Management wants everyone to be prepared for the Gap Filler at South Ferry. This is the reason they were running so many light trains around South Ferry Loop today. This will continue through Saturday at Midnight.
You mean Division A T/O's C/R's??
I guess so. The memo simply said "C/R's and T/O's hired after 9/11/01.
I saw one at Chambers St. Tuesday morning going into service. I was hoping the #2 train I was on might run express. Alas, we did not, as we waited for almost 4 minutes for the #1 train to leave and the signal to clear. Grrrrr ....
Hmmmmm. Surprised they made that 2 train wait. Most 2 trains were running express in some form yesterday. Especially s/b between 96 and TSQ and n/b between Chambers and 14.
I wish. I was angry it didn't.
i did a little rail fanning yesterday and on my way home on the 1 i decided to get off at Chambers and look down the tunnel to see how much of the new construction i could on both sides.i wasnt in any rush to get home either.anyway i looked at the uptown side first,couldnt see much because of the small curve before the station. during those couple of mintues i stood looking back there i thought about how great it would be to see a train come through there.lo and behold about 2 mintues after i crossed over to look at the downtown side,a 1 train,empty came through.i got so ticked off,i wanted to see it come and thinking that there wasnt gonna be one coming through for quite awhile i crossed over to the other side.still when i saw it,i got this feeling of excitement,it was so unbelieveable.almost a year since the worst day ever and the that part of the subway destroyed, not even i wouldve imagined it would be so quickly before service was restored.hard to believe that 369 days later,everything will be back to normal huh? i cant wait till 9/15 comes around,im gonna go to the SI Mall that day and finish off the whole trip from SF on the 1.if anyone wishes to come with me let me know.and make sure to buy a 1 day pass because going to the SI Mall isnt all im gonna do.
Do these light trains stop at Rector and South Ferry?
No. A 'light' train is running Not In Service - no passengers, no stops.
I have a zip file with bullits from 1967 and the present including diamonds, double letters, Future Numbers and letters (10, 11, 12, 13, P, U, X, Y, Train to the plane, and others. the files are in Gif and BMP.
I will Send Them by e-mail request, please place *bullits* on the subject line.
mapman_sp@yahoo.com
I heard that due to the crowds that were anticipated for the Caribbean-Day Parade (on Labor Day) that the TA placed Conductors on the two-car train units for the day. Was anyone aware of that?
What NYCT SHOULD have done was add on another set of 68's to each train for the heavier loads. All station can handle 4-car trains...it would have been a good test-run for the additional car lengths...oh well, maybe next year.
Well, I got to go now mon....Ireeeee
Da BMTmon
We all know that Hippos are B-I-G enough to handle lots of folks while they lumber along :-(
Franklin Shuttle station can only handle 2 R68's since it was rebuild three years ago. Has for C/R on the train this happen every year since it opens. For what I hear the crows are so big that the Cruw sometime has to go out the end door out side the train to change ends. If this is the case that the TA shout have put two T/O on each train for two reason 1) to ceep from have to change ends and 2)to speed up turn aroud. Has for putting another se of car on, it can't be done. The line only can handel two train on line becouse of the one track from Botanic Gradons to Franklin Ave.
Robert
Except for Prospect Park you mean, all other stations can only platform two cars.
Do they though out the schedule or just run with a C/R on the normal weekend schedule??
That I don't know, but it sound like when every that train can leave it leave.
Robert
All stations besides Prospect Park are only 170' long and cannot handle more than 2 car trains of 75 footers. This and the one track thru Park Place severely limits capacity and magnifies the idiocy of the rebuilding plan.
no it cant handle 4-car trains anymore.the stations were rehabbed to handle only 2 car sets of 75 foot cars.
I forgot about da mon...tanks alot, mon...
Which stations besides Prospect Park can handle 4-car trains of R-68s? Each of the other Franklin Shuttle stations has 170-foot-long platforms, long enough for two R-68s and no more.
David
Posted on Tue, Sep. 03, 2002
Student lands in legal trouble for photographing police cars
He says it's a hobby. Police cite Sept. 11 security fears.
By Jonathan Gelb and Benjamin Wallace-Wells
Inquirer Staff Writers
Mohammed Budeir says his hobby is harmless.
As with devotees around the country, Budeir says he enjoys taking photographs of police cars to post on the Internet. Sure enough, the Web is full of such sites created by those who, like Budeir, are drawn to the esoteric pursuit of collecting such pictures.
But in an anxious post-Sept. 11 world, his hobby has put him at odds with police in Willistown Township in Chester County, after they discovered Budeir, 20, a Villanova University student from Wayne, taking pictures of police cars without their permission last month. Police charged him with trespassing and disorderly conduct, saying the FBI had warned them to look out for would-be terrorists taking photos of emergency vehicles.
So are police getting excited over nothing? Or is there reason to be concerned over Budeir's behavior?
In the next few months, the Chester County District Attorney's Office will answer those questions in part by deciding how vigorously to prosecute the case.
In the meantime, Budeir and police remain deadlocked over the meaning of a case that both sides agree would have been a non-issue before Sept. 11.
Budeir, a U.S. citizen of Syrian descent, wanted the photos for his own collection, said his attorney, Richard Meanix.
"It would seem that his crime is not a real serious one," Meanix said.
He said Budeir is part of an online community - composed largely of former police but also including civilians - that is fascinated with police vehicles.
One such site, copcar.com, gets between 4,000 and 5,000 Web hits a week, said owner Dave Arnold, a retired Colorado police officer. Arnold said private citizens sometimes hoard police memorabilia for the sense of power and the thrill.
A quick Internet search reveals dozens of such sites, some that include photos of police cars from departments in the region, including those in Philadelphia, Norristown, Chester City and West Chester.
To some law enforcement officials, however, such sites could be dangerous.
"Our hypersensitivity is about people taking detailed photos of a police car to duplicate those markings," said Joseph Angelino, chief of police in Norwich, N.Y., and an expert in police collectibles. He said there was heightened concern among authorities that police cars, ambulances and other emergency vehicles could be cloned.
Willistown police said Budeir was acting "suspiciously" on the two days in August when he came to the police station to take photographs, though they stop short of alleging that he is involved in any organized crime ring.
Police chief Hugh Murray said a Willistown officer first noticed Budeir in the station's rear parking lot taking photos of police cars with a digital camera on Aug. 1.
The officer became suspicious - not because Budeir was Middle Eastern, Murray said, but because the department had received the FBI warning earlier in the week.
Budeir complied when asked by the officer to delete the photos and was told not to come back unless he had official township business, Murray said. But according to court papers, he returned the next day, when another officer saw him taking pictures of the cars.
When confronted, Budeir explained that he was taking the photos because he posted them on the Internet as a hobby. But the officer became suspicious when Budeir could not name the Web site where he displayed them, Murray said.
Budeir did not return calls for comment. No one answered the door at his Wayne home.
Last week, Budeir waived his preliminary hearing in district court in West Chester. In doing so, he applied for the county's Accelerated Rehabilitative Disposition program, an informal probation for nonviolent offenders. Entrance into the program would allow Budeir to perform community service while on probation and then apply to have his arrest expunged from his record.
If he is not approved for the ARD program, he would have a preliminary hearing and the case would proceed toward trial.
First Assistant District Attorney Patrick Carmody said the process of deciding whether to approve Budeir for ARD may take "a couple of months." Carmody said the office will weigh the seriousness of the crime, whether he has a criminal record, and "particularly, the fact that he was asked to go away and then came back."
In the meantime, the case has one clear meaning for Budeir's attorney. "It is an example about how careful one must be in his actions after Sept. 11," Meanix said.
The department was stupid about the way they handled that.
However, the student was not very smart either. He could photograph to his heart's content on the public street. Instead, he entered the police station's parking lot without permission.
Gee it like we can photograph the subway from the street all we want, but don't do it from the platform.
You can photograph the subway from the platform. Just don't use a tripod, and don't be obnoxious about it.
Police cars are often parked on the street, and there's nothing wrong with photographing them there. If you ask permission in advance, you can photograph them at the station too.
Use a long length lens, starting at around 100mm, you could stand on a sidewalk and photograph vehicles in an adjacent parking lot quite easily.
-Robert King
>>> Gee it like we can photograph the subway from the street all we want, but don't do it from the platform. <<<
Of course there is less possibility that terrorists will want to replicate a subway car than a police car. (I hope heypaul is not being held in secret detention somewhere). :-)
Tom
With all those surplus RTS buses, maybe bus photographers should be next on the list.
Yeah, I can see terrorists pulling up in a single car slant 40 in front of the municipal building and blending in with the other trains sitting outside the front steps without being noticed. :)
Back when "Poppy" was President, there were a lot of people digging bunkers too, and "survivalists" were everywhere. Back THEN I determined that if THESE were the people that were going to survive a conflagration, I wasn't so sure I wanted to be among the survivors. :(
I guess the Paoli cops should get rubber bed sheets!
I consider myself a civil libertarian, but I don't have much sympathy for this guy if the facts as stated are correct.
- A police car parking lot is not a place where the public has the right to be, any more than a subway yard or a bus parking lot is.
- He was supposedly asked to go away and came back. If I asked someone to leave my front yard and he came back, I would want himaarrested too.
It might still be overreaction by the police, but it strikes me as totally constitutional (always assuming the facts are as stated).
It also doesn't strike me as a major crime, but then again no one is saying he's going to go to jail for years or anything.
This can only happen in Paoli. That's Philly suburbs for you.
In Boston, the police officer would probably just lamp you one and told you to eff off the property.
Is there ANYTHING in Paoli worth terrorizing? So far, ALL terrorist attacks have occured in NEW YORK CITY with the exception of a SMALL handful of other "attacks" in and around D.C. So where's everybody flipping out? Atlanta, doomtown and the tri-color area. Remember West Nile? Didn't matter when people in Queens and Staten Island died. By gum, now that it's deep in the heart of them Red states, NOW it matters. Has everyone lost their frigging MINDS?
Please note, for security purposes, no photography of SelkirkTMO is permitted. Embargo enforced by Howitzer administered by a secret controller stand in the basement. Sheesh.
The department was stupid about the way they handled that.
However, the student was not very smart either. He could photograph to his heart's content on the public street. Instead, he entered the police station's parking lot without permission.
Gee it like we can photograph the subway from the street all we want, but don't do it from the platform.
You can photograph the subway from the platform. Just don't use a tripod, and don't be obnoxious about it.
Police cars are often parked on the street, and there's nothing wrong with photographing them there. If you ask permission in advance, you can photograph them at the station too.
Use a long length lens, starting at around 100mm, you could stand on a sidewalk and photograph vehicles in an adjacent parking lot quite easily.
-Robert King
>>> Gee it like we can photograph the subway from the street all we want, but don't do it from the platform. <<<
Of course there is less possibility that terrorists will want to replicate a subway car than a police car. (I hope heypaul is not being held in secret detention somewhere). :-)
Tom
With all those surplus RTS buses, maybe bus photographers should be next on the list.
Yeah, I can see terrorists pulling up in a single car slant 40 in front of the municipal building and blending in with the other trains sitting outside the front steps without being noticed. :)
Back when "Poppy" was President, there were a lot of people digging bunkers too, and "survivalists" were everywhere. Back THEN I determined that if THESE were the people that were going to survive a conflagration, I wasn't so sure I wanted to be among the survivors. :(
Well I printed out my files for filing to take the Train Operator Exam (#2085), I plan to be the first one to file them on May 7th and pass whatever test is required. I need this job to primarly achieve my dream of driving a train and help me pay for college (I am in going in to my senior year of H.S.) I know alot of people who work for the MTA, primarily conductors who are pissed off at the fact that the next test is Open Competitive and not a promotional test. I do feel bad in a way because of that, it goes through my mind that "hey I might be taking the oppertunity away from a condutor to make more money and he or she might have a family" but I want to take the test, because my life is beginning and it beats working at a McDonalds. I hope I pass, and that I do, and if I become one and the day when I enter the crew room and they look at me with anger and disgust, I'll just say I'm sorry and go right to my train. Yes I do believe it is wrong that it is no longer promotional, because a train driver is a definite good position with good pay. I just hope that the people who already worked through the promotional system will not hold a negative judgement against those taking the test for Train Operator, because we're all trying to do the same thing, live our lives.
The DCAS test list http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/html/examschedule.html
does not list Train Operator as test given. The list is covers The following exams are scheduled to be open for filing from July 2002 through June 2003.
Unless DCAS lists the test, it ain't gonna happen.
Here is the 1999 exam announcement for O/C http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/pdf/trainoperator.pdf
Here is the current list of Open Competitive Trainsit Jobs (Promotional below):
Transportation Exams
September 4 - 24, 2002 filing Structure Maintainer, Group E
October 2 - 22, 2002 filing Structure Maintainer, Group F
October 2 - November 26, 2002 filing Signal Maintainer
Transit Electrical Helper
November 6 - December 24, 2002 filing Transit Electromechanical Maintainer
December 4 - 24, 2002 filing Highway Transportation Specialist
Maintainer's Helper Group B
Power Cable Maintainer
Telephone Maintainer
December 4, 2002 -
January 22, 2003 filing Bus Maintainer, Group B
January 2 - February 25, 2003 filing Car Inspector
February 5 - 25, 2003 filing Traffic Enforcement Agent
February 5 - March 25, 2003 filing Light Maintainer
April 2 - 22, 2003 filing Structure Maintainer, Group A
Structure Maintainer, Group D
Promotional Exams:
Filing Month Title Exam No.
September 4 -
September 24, 2002 Bridge and Tunnel Sergeant 2517
Bus Maintainer, Group A 2518
Engineer, Architect and Landscape Architect Series: Architect, Chemical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Electrical Engineer, Environmental Engineer, Landscape Architect, Mechanical Engineer
October 2 -
November 26, 2002 Signal Maintainer 2519
November 6 -
November 26, 2002 Maintenance Supervisor (Structures, Group B) 2527
Highway Transportation Specialist 2505
Police Officer 2538
Transit Electromechanical Maintainer 2521
December 4, -
December 24, 2002 Highway Repairer 2506
Maintainer's Helper Group B 2539
Power Cable Maintainer 2529
December 4, 2002 -
January 22, 2003 Bus Maintainter, Group B 2522
January 2 -
January 22, 2003 Maintenance Supervisor (Power Cables) 2514
Maintenance Supervisor (Power Electronics) 2531
Maintenance Supervisor (Track Equipment) 2532
January 2 -
February 25, 2003 Car Inspector 2540
February 5 -
February 25, 2003 Associate Railroad Signal Specialist 2525
Supervisor (Stations) 2520
February 5 -
March 25, 2003 Light Maintainer 2534
March 5 -
March 25, 2003 Collection Supervisor (Revenue) 9561
Power Maintainer, Group B 2537
Check the MTA site...
Maybe the test is after June 2003 if the filing deadline is May 27.
What are the qualifications for this exam?
To read and speak English, to be over the age of eighteen,to have physical coordination and functional vision, to have some work experience of responsibility and to have a flashlight stuck against one ear and have the light come out the other. CI Peter
Go to the DCAS site and look at the old exams notices.
They might add drivers license to the requirements. Some of the operators that had the most trouble did not drive or did not drive much.
The link is in my post to the old .pdf.
Listen reading a thread that they are interested is beyond them. How do you think they will do on the test.
Heh. You haven't seen the civil service "battery test" have you? If they don't read, don't pay attention and don't think, they'll score 100 before zone scoring. :)
Hold your horses Sparky.
The last time they wanted 5 years full time work experience for the job.
It is also almost impossible to go to college and be on the road extra list which now lasts for the first 2 years + of your employment. They can accomodate you but they don't have to and some seem to slam you down with glee.
>>>"Hold your horses Sparky"<<<
Hey Wannabel, watch the use of the name "Sparky", I'm in no way
involved in this posting or treads. I'm beyond the age of taking
an o/c exam for the job. I'm just reading the treads, so please
refrain from using "Sparky" out of context. >G<
;| ) JohnS AKA Sparky
Sorry, I did not see the little TM on the name.
It's not TM, just that it could of been "s" instead of an "S". Hey don't take it wrong, just razzin. :-)
I know what you meant, just being obnoxious this morning and couldn't resist. If I offended, pardone wa.
;| ) Sparky
If I had said Chief the NA's would have been mad so would the homeless.
Maxwell Smart's boss would have also wanted a few words with ya. :)
You'll only be on the Extra list for 2+ years if you go to the A division. B division people move up a little faster. I believe there are people who came off the street in Winter 2001 who already picked jobs for the upcoming B div pick.
As far as going to school, well, I just met a C/R with just 6 months on the job who is going to school full-time. He filled out a G-2 form claiming "hardship", so the Crew Office gives him the days he needs off, and the hours he needs to finish classes before coming to work.
Story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/15914p-15065c.html
It's about time, It have only been 6years since the T/A and other line started using them.
Robert
Gee, Bus trips to Westchester!
IIRC, there is a different fare structure used on Bee Line Buses than
the base $1.50 of New York City buses. And I think there is a charge
for transfers also. Also is there a surcharge on the Bee Line bus from
Fordham to Mount Vernon?
;| ) Sparky
The last time I rode, there was a surcharge on the 60 or 61 routes to cross from the Bronx in to Westchester, and vice-versa. I also believe there is (or was) a surcharge on that route that goes from Bronxville to the Secor Houses near Dyre Ave. Which seemed crazy, because the other route that terminates at Dyre Ave Subway never had a surcharge.
that would be the 55 Cross County Shopping Center- Dyre Av Subway Station.I rode it once and i liked it.
You should know the answer, after all, you know everything about transit, right.
Peace,
ANDEE
theres a surcharge on the 60 if your going to White Plains from the Bronx. an 85 cents surcharge,so it costs $2.25 to go there via the 60 plus there's also a surcharge on the 21 Limited bus from White Plains- Bedford PK.and yes there is an extra charge for transfers,35 cents.
If this proposal goes through, BeeLine's base fare will probably go up a dime to $1.50 - but then the MetroCard transfer to the subway or another bus will be free.
the thing that bugs me is WHY is there a surcharge in the first place?
I mean,cmon why do we gotta pay $2.25 to go to White Plains from the Bronx on the 60 when we can pay the regular $1.40 on the 20,the same goes for the 21 which RUNS WITH the 20 the whole way except it doesnt stop at the Cross County Shopping Ctr and it makes limited stops.to me that surcharge crap is the most crazy thing i ever heard in my life.oh yeah it also costs $1.40 on the 1W from VCP-WP.that further proves my point on why its stupid.
The 21 is the 'express' version of the 20, a 35 minute ride. As for the 60, an 80 minute ride vs a 111 minute ride on the 20. Having taken the 20...anything faster, is better.
-Hank
um its the other way around.the 60 takes longer than the 20.it only takes the 20 usually no more than 70mins while it takes the 60 90 or more.I've been on both buses already so i know.And even though 60 is one of my favorite numbers,in this case,i wish it wasnt.
Thanks for the data and input about the Bee Line fare sturcture.
For Bee Line to enter the Metro Card spectrum, there has to be a
lot of thought before hand as to its productive return in the fae
box. Basically the base fare + transfer in Westchester is $1.75
vs $1.50, New York City.
And for those of you who need the faster ride, it may not be a subway
but the intermediate fare between Melrose thru Wakefield to White
Plains is only $2.00 on Metro North Harlem Line. That's inexpensive and speedy.
Besides your get to ride cushioned seats on the R44-46-68 look-a-likes.
;| ) Sparky
Metro-North can be a good value.
..."Metro-North can be a good value"...
Yes, it can if boarding north of 125th Street or Grand Central.
Intrastate fares very economical on the New Haven division also.
Don't have the Hudson Division full schedule handy at this time
thought. So check out Metro North off peak, going your way.
Many of Mrs. Sparky's co-workers ride from Fordham to White
Plains on the reverse commute, particularly if they can connect
with the IND Concourse Line.
;| ) Sparky
LIRR can be cheap also if boarding and departing both east of Jamaica.
Yes indeed.
In some cases LIRR is cheaper if you go to Jamaica! Off-Peak Zone 3 to 14 costs less than Zone 4 to 14!
Similar to Queens Surface, Bee Line would be 1.40 off peak and when paying with coing and dollar bills. So those who can ride for only 1.40 will most likely attempt to get the off peak discount like Queens and Bronx riders do with the QBx1
Hey guys, I'm not one of the well-knowns here at SubTalk, but I just wanted to let you guys know I'm now taking the first step to becoming an Assistant Conductor at Metro-North. I sent my resume in in Early August and got a letter on Saturday telling me that my qualifications match there's and I have to attend a Information/Testing session on Sept 18 or Sept 19 in N. White Plains. I'm hoping I score high enough to make it to the next phase (they make sure you know that even by passing you may not make it to the next round due to the number of applicants).
If you guys have any advise or pointers for me, it would be greatly appreciated and I'll be sure to let you know how I progress through the selection process.
Thanks,
Tony
Apart from the rats who prowl the tracks, and occassionally have the gall to invade the platform and even the mezzanine, the most heinous everyday subway peeve has to be the preacher: The loudmouthed, semi-cherent zealot who assaults the trapped commuters and attacks our religions, our lifestyles, and our right to do anything but listen to them.
I'm ticked off today because there was a particularly obnoxious one on board my (F) train today. She got on somewhere around Van Wyck Blvd. She attacked not only us non-Christians, but Catholics as well. And she had a few special words for those of us who dared to read the newspaper. She got louder and louder with every passing minute, till the ride became a nightmare. At Roosevelt Ave I gave up my seat and transfered to another car. By then another passenger had begun talking back to her, and I had just had enough.
It may seem like a simple nuisaince, but I think it's more than that. When they're really aggressive, they can be a public health hazzard. What if there were children aboard that train? When I was a kid, I was told that was going to hell because I was a Jew, and I was terrified for days. My wife had a similar experience as a child. And even a small child who doesn't understand the words will be frightenned by the volume and tone of voice.
Certainly the subway is technically a public space. But the freedoms even in the public sphere are not infinite. You're not allowed to yell "fire!" in a crowded theater (or on a public street for that matter, to take the "public vs. private" debate out of this.) I cannot believe that one really has the right to hold a whole carload of passengers captive between stations and essentially verbally assault them. There must be some kind of recourse.
Not that it would matter. Public health hazzards seem to be a way of life in this city. Just as rats flourish on the subway, so too, I suspect, will subway prechers.
---Andrew
I sympathize with you.
This particular "preacher" could be cited for creating a disturbance, or disorderly conduct etc. It would be appropriate to politely ask her to stop, and if she does not, request the crew to summon a transit buraeu officer to remove her from the subway.
I misspelled "bureau." Sorry.
If you ask them to stop, they just get even louder. I got so pissed off at one while I was a B/O that I started to tell her that I beleaved in Saten(Can't Speel it). Men that mad here even louder, it was just in time for the cops to walk onto the bus and take her off.
Robert
Agreed. So it's up to you to ask the crew to call them.
And the crew is NOT going to call anyone unless someone is being physically threatened. Why? Because no one will come to remove a "preacher" - something about "freedom of religion".
(Mind you, I don't agree with this. Nonetheless, it is the current reality)
Tell the conductor that in a certain car, people are being verbally threatened. A person is yelling at customers. One does not have to be touched to be threatened.
Wrong. They will remove him or her if a disturbance is being created.
The danger in being too cynical is that when help really is available (and it is) you don't ask for it.
That is irrelevant. In the Bill of Rights, you can WORSHIP any religion you choose, but you can not spread it around in places where it is not appropriate. Something call soliciting. A crime, no doubt.
One response to all three of you - having tried this, the NYPD Transit bureau officers will NOT remove someone from the train for preaching. Being abusive, yes, but not preaching. And, since the 'innocents' in NYC will never get involved when an officer shows up, ain't gonna be anyone to back you up about the verbally assualting preacher.
"Being abusive, yes, but not preaching. And, since the 'innocents' in NYC will never get involved when an officer shows up, ain't gonna be anyone to back you up about the verbally assualting preacher."
I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but I have been able to get offenders off the subway more than once - in NY and in Philadelphia. I've also kicked a panhandler off an LIRR train sitting at Penn by promising to bring an officer over and if necessary, leave the train myself to press charges.
So I've just shown you three instances where the system worked.
"Ummm ... control? Ummmm ... we have a 'faith based' incident here." :)
A 12-666
Hahaha ... if I had to endure that as an employee, I'd carry a book of Wiccan ceremonies to read from in addition to my book of sayings of the MTA Chairman. Nothing I enjoy more than getting woken up a couple of hours after going to bed on a Saturday morning to be greeted by a pair of droids with copies of the Watchtower for me. If "I don't HAVE to be born again, I did it right the first time" doesn't do the trick, there's nothing like Hendrix blaring "All along the Watchtower" to convince them to drive back down the half mile of hill and leave da property. :)
Hahaha ... if I had to endure that as an employee, I'd carry a book of Wiccan ceremonies to read from in addition to my book of sayings of the MTA Chairman.
Reminds me of the time I encountered a born-again Christian at my old job. He was shocked that, even though I was a Jew, I didn't believe that Jesus Christ was my savior. He was shocked that the Jews of Crown Heights didn't accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Kinda like being shocked that the Pope doesn't worship Budha! But this is how born-agains view Jews in particular, as high-priority conversions, the people who must immediately be shown the One True Path of Christ.
When I saw what was going on with him, I insisted on changing the subject. Then as a subtle measure, I began singing as many rock songs I knew with the devil in them: "Sympathy For The Devil", "Friend Of The Devil", etc.
:-) Andrew
You could have asked him, "What proof do you have that we are not already living in the light of the devil?"
(No offense intended to practicing Christians on this site)
No Offense Taken.
They do not allow such preachers on airport property.
They claim that it is private property and that they are trespassing.
Problem is on the Subway, they PAID a fare, and so are not tresspassing.
Mayhap the MTA ought to "License" the use of the subway. And in the small print that nobody ever reads it says "Passing this turnstyle, you agree to be bound by the rules and regulations described in this license."
That way they would be in violation of their license and could be carted off and dumpped before a judge somewhere.
Elias
>>> Mayhap the MTA ought to "License" the use of the subway. And in the small print that nobody ever reads it says "Passing this turnstyle, you agree to be bound by the rules and regulations described in this license." <<<
What would be written into those rules and regulations that would solve the problem? Keep in mind that this is a public corporation so the rules would have to pass constitutional muster and could not single out religious speech. I doubt that the rules could be more restrictive than the present laws against loitering, and disturbing the peace.
Tom
No offense taken from your post.
However, I feel the need to bring up a few important points. First, some of the members here have been VERY DISRESPECTFUL of my beliefs and I don't think it's appropriate. It is one thing to have someone that preaches the gospel in a disrespectful manner. Many of the subway preachers go about preaching in a manner that I myself don't agree with as a Christian. Does that mean we ban all preaching on subways? If we ban all prreaching on subways, you would also have to tear out all advertisements, as I do not believe that certain ads should be on a subway train "preaching" to everyone either. Why should eight year olds be subject to advertisements for alcohol that looks like Kool Aid (Captain Morgan's)? I'm also not interested in a gyn exam and don't care to read about that either. I have to deal with "preaching" every day and whether human or static, the annoyance is similar.
Some have used the fact that people go about "conversion" in the wrong manner to attack evangelicals in general. Few of the attackers know more than the names of the different evangelical branches and would be wise to lay off non-constructive criticism of one's beliefs. Many evangelicals DO make the mistake of attacking others and those folks happen to be the LEAST effective at getting people to understand their point of view. Every religion has a "mainstream" belief and deviations from it and a "branch" should not be used to judge the tree. As someone whose belief is "categorized" as evangelical, I happen to have lots of non-Christian friends and while we make it clear what we believe, we share a mutual respect for the other's beliefs and if this conversation is to be CONSTRUCTIVE, then we need to do the same here.
We must remember that united we stand and divided we fall. Banning preachers from the subway because a significant portion of them don't do it correctly is not the correct way to address the situation. There are lots of bad drivers, but we should not ban private cars from the roads because of that. You must also realize that some people on the train may NEED the assistance being offered. The trains are the next to last stop for many troubled people and sometimes, a message may come in handy for them. As much as I dislike the militant arm of Islam here in the United States, they have cleaned up and saved THOUSANDS of people from crime on the streets and poverty and I'd rather deal with their rhetoric than the alternative. Of course, a ban would deprive these people of that opportunity. If preaching is EVER banned on NYC subways, we would have to throw out ALL advertising except the MTA's (how much would that cost?). To make sure that no one is disturbed by any one else's beliefs, we could also ban the use of walkmans and CD players because the headphones rarely cover all of the emitted sound and that emitted sound could disturb or offend someone.
Therefore, a ban on preaching is a slippery slope we wish not to take.
You make some good points, but one thing that should be noted is the fact that many if not most subway preachers (and those plying their trade elsewhere too) aren't there primarily to get converts. Sure, getting some converts would be nice, but what the preachers really are doing is trying to reinforce their own beliefs.
Good insight.
...many if not most subway preachers (and those plying their trade elsewhere too) aren't there primarily to get converts. Sure, getting some converts would be nice, but what the preachers really are doing is trying to reinforce their own beliefs.
A fascinating point, and I suspect a true one. It's an old truism that if you're really secure in your beliefs or in your morality, you don't go arround waving it in other peoples faces. Those who seek to denounce others of different beliefs are probably not secure in their own.
--Andrew
I will agree with you, as much as I dislike public preachers, I'd rather live in a society where they are allowed rather than one where they are banned.
The ones that really piss me off are the Jews for Jesus. I don't have a problem with Jews converting to Christianity if they feel that it serves them better, but once that's done, they're no longer Jews!
Someone should start a Christians for Allah movement, or even better:
Atheists for God!
Actually they had that in the Soviet Union.
Respectful preachers in public places can hand out leaflets quietly. I'm sure NO ONE would object to that. It's the "fire and brimstone in public" types that irritate and embarass the rest of us who are "believers" ... reminds me of the old Cheech and Chong schtick - "I used to be all messed up on drugs and then I found the Lord. Now I'm all messed up on the Lord."
Respect is a two way street, and the demonstration of respect for your fellow humans demonstrates respect for the Lord if you follow my point ... When Jesus preached, the only people HE irritated was the politicians and religious elders.
Thankyou my friend for an affirmation of faith. CI Peter
And thank you for not being a politician. :)
I don't think preaching in the subway can be equated with advertising, after all, the advertisers pay the MTA. As far as I know preachers don't.
Peace,
ANDEE
And passengers who aren't interested in the advertising can simply not look at it. Passengers who aren't interested in the preaching have few options unless the preachers are kind enough to hand out earplugs.
That's when you wish you were on a train of R-10s. Not too many people could shout above their thundering roar.
Heh. "Jews for Jesus" was one of my own personal favorites when I lived in New Paltz. Living upstate, you let the beard grow and I must admit I looked a bit Lubavitcher (still do) and was constantly being assaulted by these guys who insisted that the Moschiach had already saved me. They'd ask others, "are you Jewish?", they'd make a BEELINE for me. I started wearing a name tag on the street ("HELLO My name is KEVIN") to ward them off. STILL didn't work.
Kevin, I thought your name was Kirk.... Hi Kevin!
Moo! Selkirk is nearby, it's a town with a big railyard. Used to live there, but am much better now. :)
Another 'Slayer' fan? Used to tool about in my company provided car blaring CDs to ward off the yellow cabbies. Moslems were scared of me...steered their cabs out of my range. 'Angel of death....monarch of the kingdom of death....infamous....butcher......' I've grown up a bit at my older age.
The sorry point is that many prosthelestizers have a serious commitment of faith that is ignored by the masses. Of course, I ain't buying a 'Hari Krishna' book of pictures of purple elephant gods with eight arms. Gotta work with 'these people' everday...you know your TA when you got to 7-11 and recognise the 'prayer card' on the cash register! Thankyouverrrrymuch.
Carry a picture of - um - the Jersey Devil!
But Wicca could probably work too. Even though it is a form of Paganism, there is nothing evil about it, though according to some unenlightened people (i.e. certain subway preachers, Christian fanatics, and/or Jehovah's Witnesses), it is satan worship. Wicca is essentially worship of nature. I have a couple of friends who practice it, and I find it quite interesting. The Wiccan rituals are really cool, and I love burning incense!
Pretty peculiar when you look at how virtually all the Christian holy days fall on or about the ancient pagan/Celtic holy days.
For example, take Halloween (the eve of All Saints Day) - the same day as Samhein (SAH-win], which is a harvest-fest of sorts.
Then Christmas (25 Dec) falls 4 days after the winter solstace (21 Dec).
Don't forget Easter. The name itself is taken from the Anglo-Saxon godess of the spring, whose festival fell at roughly the same time of year.
That's just in English. In Spanish, the same word, pascua, is used for both Easter and Passover.
Mark
And in Hebrew, the word for Passover is Pesach.
In Spanish and in other languages the name was transliterated, for English, it was translated.
Then Christmas (25 Dec) falls 4 days after the winter solstace (21 Dec).
Actually, Christmas *does* fall on the winter solstace (sol invictus... the victory of the sun... son)
Just was that due to the earth's wobble they got the day wrong, and the calendar was corrected *after* sometime Christmas was *set* on the 25th.
Indeed, the Soviet substitute for Santa Clause (Father Winter or somesuch) was a harkening back to a much older feast, one that the Christians had coopted in the first place.
Yes, most Christian rituals are a supplanting of the pagan in an attempt at conversion, and of making conversion easier. This of course does not make it wrong, or the older feasts superior. All religions, even the Jews have done this at one time or another.
It is all very interesting.
Elias
Or carry a picture of a Duke Blue Devil.:)
I'll make a note not to take any D train from 59th St. at 12:30.
Even though it is a form of Paganism, there is nothing evil about it, though according to some unenlightened people (i.e. certain subway preachers, Christian fanatics, and/or Jehovah's Witnesses), it is satan worship.
Christian fanatics believe that all non-Christians are being tricked by the devil. The really nutty ones believe Christians not in their sect are being tricked by the devil. Those of us who don't follow the One True Path are condemned to hell.
Muslim fundementalists believe all "Non-believers", ie non-Muslims, are condemned to hell, though variantly believe that "People of The Book", Jews and Christians, at least get a measure of mitigation.
The Jewish faith is not without its zeolots. I know that as well as anything. But one thing that keeps my religion relatively moderate is that we don't necessarily believe non-followers are going to hell. The concept of hell itself is not big at all in Judaism, and in some circles it is not believed in at all. At any rate, the focus is on this life rather than the next. And it is not permitted to seek to convert others. A convert must do so on his or her own accord.
None of this, however, prevents the ultra-Orthodox from trying to hook in the less obvervant Jews into whatever sect of Orthodoxy they practice. Especially at this time of year, the Lubovitchers are out in full force, asking people all over the city "are you Jewish" then making the victim...er well, let's leave that at victim perform a seasonal comandment then trying to get them into the movement. This is another nuisaince a NYC Jew faces, though I rarely see them in the subway.
---Andrew
A well-written post. A few of of my fellow Jews can be as much megalomaniacs as anybody else ("we are chosen, you are not") and make everybody suffer for it.
If I knew for a fact that it would prevent the needless loss of life, I'd wish for so-called "holy sites" to be dynamited and replaced with a park, and a Wal-Mart. But I now that won't work - the fanatics can always find something else...
None of this, however, prevents the ultra-Orthodox from trying to hook in the less obvervant Jews into whatever sect of Orthodoxy they practice. Especially at this time of year, the Lubovitchers are out in full force, asking people all over the city "are you Jewish" then making the victim...er well, let's leave that at victim perform a seasonal comandment then trying to get them into the movement. This is another nuisaince a NYC Jew faces, though I rarely see them in the subway.
Every now and then I see the Jews for Jesus handing out their pamphlets in the subway. Penn Station IRT seems to attract them, as does Union Square. They are almost always within the paid area, but usually I can tell they're around even before I get to the turnstiles thanks to the discarded pamphlets littering the ground (the pamphlets are quite distinctive as they're usually brightly colored and have simple, almost childish graphics and typefaces).
I actually suspect that many of the Jews for Jesus aren't actually Jewish.
That's possible. Some are, some aren't. In the end, it's no one's business to tell anyone else "You are or you aren't ____" fill in the religion. I do find them obnoxious, though.
Here's an article about Jews For Jesus from the Anti Defamation Leaugue. It cannot truly be called a Jewsih organization, since its entire reason for existence is to sneakily convert Jews to Christianity.
--Andrew
OK. That may be so. However, I repeat my previous assertion: It is nobody's place (in the US, at least) to tell anybody else they are or are not ___(whatever). ADL's post does reveal the misleading advertising used by Jews for Jesus.
But our Constitution protects even a Jew who has decided he or she believes in Jesus. He/she can even say so to you, though you are not obliged to believe it.
I actually suspect that many of the Jews for Jesus aren't actually Jewish.
None of them are Jewish. Maybe some of them also were never Jews and others were at one point, but Jews for Jesus is a Christian organization consisting of people calling themselves Jews.
The whole matter of who's Jewish and who isn't is quite a difficult one. Lots of Jews have varying practices, cultures and beliefs.
The easiest way of referring to Jews is as a people. That means that Jews for Jesus are really Jews (EWWW!!!).
We Catholics used to say that unless you were Catholic, you wouldn't go to heaven. In fact, it used to be if you were non-Catholic and married a Catholic, you'd have to convert. They backed off from all that after Vatican II. My sister married a Lutheran and he didn't have to convert. If and when he does, it will be his decision. (Their kids were both baptized as Catholics.) I personally don't buy the notion that you can't get to heaven if you're not Catholic.
No no no they are all wrong.
You only go to heaven if you are a RAILFAN. If you're not a railfan, you will have to convert, no matter what you religion.
Isn't that the truth.
Now you have to post that over in the Busfan area.
Hey, I was trying to find common ground for everynoe!
You only go to heaven if you are a RAILFAN. If you're not a railfan, you will have to convert, no matter what you religion.
If you are a railfan, but have led an evil life, you won't make it to Heaven ... you end up in a Hell where every car is an R-68.
When my parents got married in 1932, my father was Catholic, but my mother was not. They were married in the Rectory of St. Edwards Church on Poplar Grove Street.
I remember being taught the rule that as a Catholic you could not enter a Protestant church. Like many rules of the time, there was an exception: if you happened to go into a Anglican or High Episcopol church and did not realize it, it was "O.K."
Since my mother was not orginally Catholic (she did convert later) I was not exposed to the rabid anti-Protestant that infects some Irish-Americans.
Good thing, since I went to public schools and soon realized that it didn't really matter where you went to church, as long as you were a good person. Really helps when you go out into the world.
What I can't stand is the type (all faiths, all beliefs) that force their particular view down your throat. You don't spread a religion that way. It just turns everybody off.
Bill Cosby said it best in 1962: "The New York Subway is a wonderful thing that gets where you need to go really fast. And, they go out of their way to entertain you - they put an nut in every car."
Dan, you made my day bright!!! I'm tired and on my way back to the yard for special duty on the #5 R142s.
'If you happened to go into an Anglican or High Episcopal Church and did not realise it, it was O.K.'
Means a lot to me...serve the 8AM Communion every Sunday. Faith kept me going in a miserable job. Faith kept me going through many medical exams. Faith got me this job......I MAKE TREAINS GO. CI Peter
There were a lot of rules that were just plain silly.
At one time, Catholics were forbidden to read the King James Bible. Don't know if that still holds true today. The translation is different, plus it was (and still is) considered incomplete.
It is not true (anymore). You may read any version of the Bible you wish.
The "Protestant" Bibles do not have all of the books that a Catholic Bible has. Some of the Old Testament books, that we call the Apocrapha, are not in the Septuigent version of the Hebrew scriptures, and were therefore left out of the Protestent translations which did go back to the original sources, such as they had acceess to 500 years ago. Turns out that some of the older scrolls such as found at Qumran do have these books in them, so go figure.
Your faith is one thing, scholarship and study in that faith is quite another, and HONEST scholarship demands examination of all points of view, not just those as support your position.
Elias
Amen! First thing I got to read at Graymoor was the Qu'ran and other far eastern philosophies. The similarities were stunning. What is it about so many religions having common roots of conduct and yet so many hatreds towards one another? I'm confused. Whoops. The ONE thing I can be certain of is when confusion enters the scene, I know who's knocking on the door. I'll leave it there, this just passed the yard limits. :)
Some of the Old Testament books, that we call the Apocrapha, are not in the Septuigent version of the Hebrew scriptures
I know what you mean, but the Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Hebrew (and in places Aramaic) which actually included precisely those books. It was the Hebrew text decided on by the Synod of Jamnia (yes, a PHARASAIC synod) in AD 90 which excludes those books and parts of books. As it was a Pharasaic Synod, the Church had no reason to follow it and maintained the orthodox text of the Old Testament until that pesky Martin Luther noticed that the Hebrew wasn't in existence for most of it (it did not cross his mind that the Pharisees may have destroyed it or that no-one would write Greek in such a Semitic style unless he were translating from a Semitic language).
Oops, for "most of it" read "a sizable part of it".
I'm pretty sure Vatican II did away with that rule, among other things. In addition to the seven books included in the Catholic Bible, there are two additional chapters in the book of Daniel and six lettered chapters interspersed in Esther, IIRC.
>>> I was not exposed to the rabid anti-Protestant that infects some Irish-Americans. <<<
I was raised with Irish-Americans in New York, I have never met any Irish-Americans that were antagonistic to Protestants (but sadly the same cannot be said about their attitudes toward Jews in the ‘40s). Some thought them misguided and doomed to be denied entry to heaven, and others reacted to the prejudice displayed against Catholics by a segment of Protestant society. Do not confuse the attitudes toward a political group in Northen Ireland labeled with the name "Protestants" with religious prejudice.
Tom
I grew up in RIVERDALE and attended Saint Gabriel's (3303 Netherland Avenue) as a kid. As the high rises went up and the neighborhood turned more Jewish, I was subjected to the nuns ranting "Jews eat babies" and some of the more ridiculous stuff prevalent in the Arab world today from NUNS!!! Alas, living on Johnson and 238th, I had more Jewish pals than Catholic and none of it made any sense to me at all. Sadly though, because of the nonsense that some of the OTHER kids believed in, I was spit upon and harassed by jewish kids that didn't know *MY* disbelief of the nonsense. Those who were my friends however defended me. Antisemitism (and with BLACK Catholic kids in my school getting nonsense as well) RACISM at the hands of some folks who had moved up there from the SOUTH just completely floored me with their illogic. After all, we were ALL kids, the SAME age and we all played together just fine. UNTIL the grownups screwed up our little minds.
Never COULD figure that out, I s'pose that's why I refused to GROW UP. After all, kids didn't care who they played with, as long as they're FUN to play with. Whatever became of us kids?
As to the protestant-catholic thing over in Northern Ireland (My name is Kevin McAleavey and my ANCESTORS CAME from Belfast) while we are SOLD on it being a "religious war" it always was and always will be bickering over ECONOMICS and DISCRIMINATION ... that was the reason why I was so passionate over E-Dog's "troubles" here ... it's not often RACISM, it's CLASS WAR ... and in my own family roots, that was the lesson learned. Racism is a smokescreen for CLASS WAR and economics. The POOR are the ones that gets screwed - both sides of Belfast are the SAME skin color and yet ...
Why is it that the victims of "divide and conquer" always fall for the setup? Find the queen ... find the queen ... where's the queen? I'm sorry, the queen's here. YOU LOSE. :)
Interesting. So in NI, which group is richer and which group is poorer?
I think there is usually more to it than economics, although economics is what drives people to kill each other. If it were purely the poor versus the rich, then the poor would always win, because they have more manpower and they are usually able to terrorize the rich into moving away. Why do you think these rich suburbanites think the inner city is unsafe?
The religion/race etc are just arbitrary ways for groups to identify with each other. A bit like Subfans and Railfans, or Railfans and Busfans. Busfans and Railfans will only start killing each other if there was some compelling reason why they should, e.g. Busfans are on the whole not paid as well as Railfans. But, it's not just the poor-versus the rich, because if every Railfan were always richer than every Busfan, then Railfans would be chased out of town because there would be so many more Busfans than Railfans, and Railfans would not be able to go anywhere without getting beaten up by a group of Busfans.
AEM7
But if you're rich you can spread a little of your wealth to a bunch of fence-sitting Busfans who then use their baseball bats to club other Busfans who are not employed by you.
Throw in some tribal loyalty, and compare your results to Saddam Hussein's.
Wow ... well ... I'm not even going to touch that one. Apparently, the laissez fairy has already picked an answer here, no point in even raising an argument. I'll just leave it at the classics of history, that the poor have ALWAYS been played against one another to fight over the table scraps that have been removed from the table from others who are "non-combatants."
Ramining entrails of racism/classism persist once the impetus has been removed. Last thing I want to do though is retrace a multiply-deleted losing battle of way off topic. Belfast and the IRA though is something that never needed to be, served everyone POORLY and only prolonged the class warfare. My only point was to point out the parallels between that and racism as demonstrated here as parallels. It's just TOO far off topic to go into any further here though and thus I must beg off continuing it.
take Halloween (the eve of All Saints Day)
The name Halloween is a compressed form of All Hallows Eve, with November 1 being All Hallows Day.
Hallow is the same as Saint. The words holy and hallowed (as in hallowed ground) are related to it.
Hey Selkirk, one way to get rid of those droids was told to me by a friend who was interrupted early one Saturday morning by another pair of the aforementioned droids. So he and his girlfriend went and answered the door in their birthday suits and informed the droids that the time was a most inconvenient one and that they were NOT interested in getting their souls saved at that moment. They were never bothered again.
Heh. I've had similar. There's something about the Kingdom Halls around the Poughkeepsie area, that wouldn't phase them a bit. You're STILL going to hell unless you smile and take your pamphlets. Up where I am now, they're nowhere near as obsessed. :)
Sounds like the only option is to physically threaten the preacher!
How about questioning their beliefs?
If you're into it, go at him or her, I would not recommend being as loud and obnoxious, since two wrongs do not make a right, but perhaps get near him or her, and start a conversation. Hopefully he or she will shut up and be satisfied with you as prey. Then you need a plan, work out a kind of skit, you need to draw the person in, make 'em think you are a possible convert, and then you need a trap to spring, claim to be an atheist or something and procede to undermine their beliefs, or claim to be gay and tell them that you find them attractive (of course this is gender determined), whatever you chose, but sometimes they do backfire. It can be a hell of a lot of fun, like chess, but, hopefully, you are the only one who knows where the pieces are moving. I've had a hell of a lot of fun shrugging off nutsos in philly with this method.
Good luck
Yeah, you can have fun with 'em...
Well, either that, or just lamp him/her one. Some of these people need to be taught a lesson in real life. You know, civil liberities and all that is fine, but there's the real life too. I personally would not go down to Roxbury and proclaim that urban ghetto degeneration is the source of the society's problems, even if it were true.
(There was some Urban Planning research which suggested, in the 70's, that large clusters of poor people is the root of society's problems, because the people who live there do not have a "community role model".)
There are a few people who, if they were pissed off enough, might "accidentally" bump into this lady and knock the wind out of her, hoping the other passengers would look the other way.
I am not condoning that in any way. Also, you never know when a plainclothes cop, like the ones chasing pickpockets, is aboard.
Of course, you hope he/she would intervene...
heh. I don't need to go through again here my general distrust of the law enforcement. It's true that there are a lot of great cops out there who respect their job and everything. I originally thought that there may be a theoretical reason why cops would have double standards, then I saw it in practice. I was with the ex-wife of an city police chief in a small town in Ohio when we got pulled over on I-81 doing some 95mph. Needless to say, we got away scout free.
It's the same idea as the "courtsey" ride on public transportation.
I was with the ex-wife of an city police chief in a small town in Ohio when we got pulled over on I-81 doing some 95mph.
Quite a feat to pull that off, since I-81 doesn't go through Ohio, I-81 starts on I-40 near Knoxville, TN and then runs through Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and New York, ending at the Thousand Islands Bridge over the St. Lawrence River to Canada.
You must be thinking of I-71, which runs from Cleveland at I-90, and runs through Ohio and Kentucky and ends on I-64 in Louisville.
Maybe he was pulled over because he created the new route with his driving. (only kidding - no offense intended)
You know the old story: "I didn't know that was an expressway!" "It is now."
:0)
I was with the ex-wife of an city police chief in a small town in Ohio when we got pulled over on I-81 doing some 95mph. Needless to say, we got away scout free.
On the other hand, if it had been that city police chief who'd pulled you over in Ohio, your address for the next several years might well be 878 Coitsville-Hubbard Road, Youngstown, Ohio 44505.
I was not driving. Nor do I have a licence.
AEM7
People in the United States don't have licences.
Try have one on a Bus. I had them on my buses many times. I called command to tell them that it is unsalf for me to drive becouse they were to load for me to hear anything ease on the bus or road. I had the cops remove one or two the other just got off my bus when I told them that the cops were on there way to remove them for unsalf conduct on the bus. I had one on the B16 going right though I (think it's Midwood) 13th and 14th ave. between 60st and 36st. That place is all Jewis. Man these peaple got pissed and him. After the secound time I would just pass him up if he was at a stop buy him self.
Robert
I (think it's Midwood) 13th and 14th ave.
No. It's Borough Park.
Right. Brorough Park. I only drove though it for about a year and 3 mouths.
Robert
What I cannot understand is that you are not allowed to play a boombox on the subway, but these assholes are more offensive than any music from a boombox could ever be. They should be fined just as someone playing a boombox would be.
There is one that frequents the N/B D train every day around 12:30PM. But this bitch is really sneaky. She gets on at 34th and stays real quiet until leaving 59th. After 59th she starts, when everyone is trapped. I endured her once, never again, whenever I see her I immediately move to the next car. FYI, she always rides the 1st car.
Peace,
ANDEE
If she's being disruptive and verbally attacking individual riders, report her to the conductor. He/she can call for police assistance. Contrary to popular belief, you have no legal right to preach religion in public spaces.
There's also an annoying preacher on the J who also doubles as a homeless advocate. He'd be more tolerable if he didn't spend 10-20 minutes in a single car trying to personally strike a conversation with everyone in it.
Isn't this part of Bill Cosby's old "A Nut in Every Car" routine?
Mark
No offense to anyone hear. But i really hate those damn preachers in the subway. There's this particular one in broadway junction. Everytime i walk by there she tells everyone that their going to hell etc. Which really piss me off. Sometimes i feel like going and slapping her ( I would never do that though). There so annoying. They offend people that are catholic. They also get you on the train. They love the 75 ft cars since you can't leave till the next stop and they like to wait for long express runs such as the E/F 71st conniental and 74st roosevelt and 59 st and 125 st on the A/D. I really hate them and i want to tell them off thats my honest feeling. (sorry if i sound immature or offensive).
my regards,
Adam
>>>...and 59 st and 125 st on the A/D.<<<
See my earlier post regarding this.
RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS
Peace,
ANDEE
Just say there is no God and walk away. I know of a few of them at B'way Junction. Im glad I carry my walkman with sounds from the Roxy.
Since I've never heard one of these subway preachers myself, I have a question. Do they ever seem to be mentally ill, I mean clinically?
Mark
Sometimes, yes. The one today was going off in all directions, basically a tirade against one and all. But often they are as lucid as anyone trying to prosyletise.
---Andrew
Unless they get loud and seemingly on the verge of becoming physically violent, I usually ignore them and stay in the car I'm in. Maybe their volume is annoying and maybe one's religion is a private thing that should not be subjected to another's rant, but you know what? At least these preachers aren't raping or murdering anyone. If you listen to their messages, they seem to be religious people whose biggest flaw is, unfortunately, just being a bit unhinged.
I have a simple solution. I like to call it ignore them. It goes like this: you ignore them. Newspapers, books, cd/tape players: they're all good ways of achieving the solution.
>>> I like to call it ignore them. <<<
Sometimes that is easier said than done.
Peace,
ANDEE
I sympathize with you wholeheartedly, and this is one reason (I know I'm getting a little off topic here) I hate the R-46 with a passion. On an R-32, you can move to the next car and get away from that shit. In an "F" train, you're TRAPPED. No subway preacher has the right to verbally bash anyone because of their beliefs.
By law, if you ask them to shut up once and then don't, then you should be allowed to kill them. Those loud mouth subway preachers are insane. Death is to good for them. I hate trying to read my paper and hearing about God. I'm Catholic, and I hear God's words every Sunday.
Some have far more faith than we...we do and work and serve...and we truly do our best. Sunday is not the only day you should hear and receive the Lords words...one accident with the 'Big Bug' in the yard...1500 Kilowatts of direct current...and all your hopes and dreams and plans meet Armageddon. My internet handle 'OnTheJuice' wasn't picked out for nothing. You make your best, you do your best, you keep your faith and keep on going. CI Peter
Well said.
I'm Catholic, and I hear God's words every Sunday.
I'm Catholic too, and I go to church four times a day.
Oh wait, that's right! I live in a church.
We got a ruel for weekday homilies: 5 minutes tops.
If you can't say it in five minutes, more minutes is not going to help you.
Elias
The priest who founded our parish was nicknamed "Fast Freddie" for being able to celebrate a Latin Mass, with homily, in 20 minutes! (And you thought the R-10s were fast.) He was up-tempo, all right. At Communion, he'd be a bit out of sync with distribution and saying, "The body of Christ". Sometimes he'd say it twice before you received the host. Before he died, he met with the archbishop about starting a new parish near Denver International Airport.
Try this website for direction(s):
mtainfo.com
This discussion has been very interesting, if off-topic at times. Here's my attempt to make it somewhat on-topic: I'm a practicing Mennonite, and part of what I believe is that I'm responsible for how my actions affect other people. Transportation is one area in which I have to ask how my choices affect my fellow human beings for better or for worse. Knowing that pollution I produce may give someone else cancer, or cause someone else's coastline to flood, I feel responsible to use public transportation whenever possible. I know this isn't always possible, since I'm on SEPTA's turf, but when I do use transit, for me it's a moral decision, which is motivated in part by faith. I'm just curious if anyone else feels this way.
It's also fun to have a hobby I can feel so good about! :)
Mark
I don't think that belief is restricted to members of your religion alone.
It occurred to me today that there are two fundamentally different ways of dealing with public property (and I include, e.g., air in that category). One approach is that is that public property is available for each individual to do whatever he wants with it -- "It's mine as much as everybody else's." The other approach is that each individual has the duty, as much as possible, to maintain and preserve public property for the rest of the public -- "It's everybody else's as much as mine." You sound like you take the latter approach.
I support that approach too. I do feel, corny as it sounds, that I'm helping my country by conserving energy (patriotism?), investing in public infrastructure (paying my fare to ride and advocating or expanding the network), and fighting air pollution (environmentalism) when I use mass transit.
I'm also keeping myself from becoming overweight. Using mass transit usually means you have to do some walking every day.
Just heard something in class today:
Riding mass transit in fact does very little for the environment. Mass transit has something like a 3% mode share in urban (SMSA) trips, compared to some 84% of auto trips (1990 census). Point is, if you want to reduce energy consumption, making energy-efficient cars is much more critical than trying to grow the mass transit market share. Although, obviously from a personal perspective, every little counts.
Mass transit is really counter-intuitive. Paying fare on marginal lines may actually hurt the system more than they help it. For instance, if you insist on riding mass transit in an area where the line is carrying so little passengers that it ought to be discontinued, you are actually doing the country a disservice by allowing the nation to waste resources on something which is clearly not cost effective. The problem is, it is hard to judge what lines are marginal and what lines is really effective.
People should not assume public transit is automatically good. It isn't. You can do your country a lot more service (from an efficiency point of view) if you lobbied an organization that proposes congestion charges for cars, instead of lobbying for transit subsidy or transit usage.
AEM7
It depends on your point of view. Don't take what you hear in class out of context.
"Riding mass transit in fact does very little for the environment. Mass transit has something like a 3% mode share in urban (SMSA) trips, compared to some 84% of auto trips (1990 census)."
But within the New York metropolitan region, 90% of all people entering and leaving Manhattan use mass transit. More mass transit trips occur within areas of the boroughs than car trips. Mass transit allows the region to be the most energy-efficient in the country and one of the most energy efficient in the world, and the figures you quote do not apply. The benefit in New York, however, may not not directly comparable with what happens in, say, Peoria.
"Point is, if you want to reduce energy consumption, making energy-efficient cars is much more critical than trying to grow the mass transit market share."
Not necessarily true. In markets where mass transit is effective, growing mass transit is the preferred option. Again, one scale does not fit all.
And in fact, anywhere you can fill up a bus with at least 20 or 30 people, you are gaining in energy-efficiency, regardless of where you are.
"Paying fare on marginal lines may actually hurt the system more than they help it. For instance, if you insist on riding mass transit in an area where the line is carrying so little passengers that it ought to be discontinued, you are actually doing the country a disservice by allowing the nation to waste resources on something which is clearly not cost effective."
But the auto drivers may not be compensating the rest of us for the pollution they create and are being subdsidized through road building - to cite just one example of the holes in applying your theory to actual world conditions. Within each market, recognition of this could be utilized to create more accurate pricing. This may or may not lead more people to use mass transit, depending on whether it became less expensive than driving a car.
Now, there will be areas in the country where mass transit does not work well, clearly. But taking the overall picture and then trying to apply the lesson to individual markets leads to false conclusions, as I have shown.
"Although, obviously from a personal perspective, every little counts. "
Certainly. :0)
Not necessarily true. In markets where mass transit is effective, growing mass transit is the preferred option.
But, these cars are still needed for the same people going somewhere other than downtown New York. The point being that if you chose the "most appropriate" mode for travelling where you want to go, that's not necessarily doing the country a disservice. It might make sense to grow mass transit going downtown (in Boston at least, the CBD transit travel-to-work mode share is only 50%, by the way). But it makes no sense to try to grow a bus line that runs every 1/2 hour from Winchester into the northern Suburbs of Boston. In fact such line should be discontinued, and road tolls adjusted to reflect the true cost of living in Winchester, MA.
You will get no argument from me that the auto-highway combination ought to be priced more rationally than it is today. But as many mass transit advocates fail to realize, the car is vastly overpriced in many parts of the United States. If we removed the gas tax and changed that to a capital amortization plus congestion charge, the price per mile in driving around in rural farmland will be substantially less than they are now. On a per-ton-mile basis, the rural collectors pay for themselves many times over carrying grain. Any auto traffic for farmers is truly marginal.
AEM7
"But, these cars are still needed for the same people going somewhere other than downtown New York. The point being that if you chose the "most appropriate" mode for travelling where you want to go, that's not necessarily doing the country a disservice."
OK. That's reasonable.
"But it makes no sense to try to grow a bus line that runs every 1/2 hour from Winchester into the northern Suburbs of Boston."
It does if you can fill it with enough passengers to establish your improved fuel economy.
"In fact such line should be discontinued, and road tolls adjusted to reflect the true cost of living in Winchester, MA."
If we use that option, we must then overcome local politics, which will tend to try to make the car less expensive (because a driver living there doesn't mind ripping off other people to reduce his own expense).
" But as many mass transit advocates fail to realize, the car is vastly overpriced in many parts of the United States. If we removed the gas tax and changed that to a capital amortization plus congestion charge, the price per mile in driving around in rural farmland will be substantially less than they are now."
Not necessarily. The "congestion" charge may need to be quite high to account for increasing damage to cropland and resource usage. You may find the price of the auto drops only marginally.
The point being that if you chose the "most appropriate" mode for travelling where you want to go, that's not necessarily doing the country a disservice. It might make sense to grow mass transit going downtown (in Boston at least, the CBD transit travel-to-work mode share is only 50%, by the way). But it makes no sense to try to grow a bus line that runs every 1/2 hour from Winchester into the northern Suburbs of Boston. In fact such line should be discontinued, and road tolls adjusted to reflect the true cost of living in Winchester, MA.
Your points are generally correct. There is, however, a common belief, if not a true consensus, that transit provides a vital social service in some areas and therefore should be supported even if not cost-effective. That does not mean that low-density areas should have expensive and costly transit systems for the benefit of the 2% of the population that does not/cannot drive. But there may be justification for maintaining basic, "lifeline" transit systems in such areas.
(The auto is overpriced..If we removed the gas tax and changed that to a capital amortization plus congestion charge, the price per mile in driving around in rural farmland will be substantially less than they are now. On a per-ton-mile basis, the rural collectors pay for themselves many times over carrying grain. Any auto traffic for farmers is truly marginal. )
No way. It is true that the biggest (and most unknown) cost of the automobile is the land it occupies, and that in rural areas that land is worth less -- hence the congesion charge component would be lower.
On the other hand, in low density areas the cost of construction per person served is great. My block, like most NYC blocks, has a 60 foot wide right of way shared by about 150 households, with 16 for every 100 feet of frontage (both sides) and more at the corners. My father in law, up in the Catkills, has one family per 100 feet of frontage.
The cost of maintenance per person served is also higher in low density areas, because some wear and tear is caused by weathering and not by traffic.
There are two points worth making about the cost of the automobile. Most of the PRIVATE cost is fixed -- purchase and insurance -- while most of the SOCIAL cost is variable, depending on where and when you drive. Unless you have severe congestion pricing, once someone has already purchased an auto (or a second auto) it is always in their interest to use it, regardless of the social costs. Manhattan -- thanks to huge traffic delays and the high cost of parking -- may be the one exception, but only because it has massively high density and is on an island.
If you want high transit use (and pedestrian trips) overall, therefore, you have to convince people not to buy the car. Since there are trips for which auto is by far the best mode, however, readily available, low cost rental cars are pro-transit and a help in reducing social costs. Perhaps we shouldn't be taxing the hell out of the car rental business.
That's a very interesting post. Indeed, offer people rental cars to use when mass transit doesn't serve the purpose.
One idea - offer tax breaks for rental car agencies who make cars available at the periphery of the transit system - that is, if you're using your car, it's going to be outside the transit network's reach, so use transit to reach the rental car, and then use the rental car to complete your trip. When returning, the rental car return is on the outskirts, and mass transit brings you back to your home.
(One idea - offer tax breaks for rental car agencies who make cars available at the periphery of the transit system - that is, if
you're using your car, it's going to be outside the transit network's reach, so use transit to reach the rental car, and then use the
rental car to complete your trip. When returning, the rental car return is on the outskirts, and mass transit brings you back to
your home.)
I don't know that we need more tax breaks. But the MTA could build parking lots over the transit yards, reserving the spaces exclusively for rental car companies and those who park 'n ride. They could even add a special station in the yard in cases where trains routinely go there at the end of a run. So if you live in Manhattan, rather than garaging your car there, you'd leave it in a lot or garage over the Concourse or Jerome Ave yard, and take the subway up to get it when leaving town. Or you'd skip the car altogether, and rent it when going upstate. Either way, you'd be less likely to drive to a New Jersey supermarket if the car wasn't downstairs waiting for you.
So if you live in Manhattan, rather than garaging your car there, you'd leave it in a lot or garage over the Concourse or Jerome Ave yard, and take the subway up to get it when leaving town. Or you'd skip the car altogether, and rent it when going upstate. Either way, you'd be less likely to drive to a New Jersey supermarket if the car wasn't downstairs waiting for you.
Doesn't really work. Firstly, leaving car in a yard somewhere is clearly not secure. Secondly, the transit takes too long to get to the car, with most rides out to terminals taking some one hour or more from the city center. Thirdly, the best thing about the car is the "last mile", in that it takes you to the front door and you don't have to walk with a heavy chest of drawers that you just purchased at the Home Depot from the transit stop.
There is already car-sharing schemes in Boston called the zipcar that operates out of transit properties. Their rates are $6 per hour and $1 per mile. I don't know how close this is to the true costs of using the car, but based on various evaluations I have done, it's almost never worth it. Say I want to take a day trip to Providence, the combined Subway/Amtrak trip cost is close to $60, while the zipcar would cost $120 or more. Clearly, the zipcar's cost equation assumes city driving. If the transportation requirement was that there is a piece of freight in Providence that requires pick-up, it's clearly cheaper to send it UPS.
AEM7
"Doesn't really work. Firstly, leaving car in a yard somewhere is clearly not secure."
Not true. There are many well-run lots where you can confidently leave your car.
" Secondly, the transit takes too long to get to the car, with most rides out to terminals taking some one hour or more from the city center."
That must be why both SEPTA and LIRR parking lots are well used with often very few spaces left.
You really should do more homework when you post, dude. And I don't mean from the ivory tower. Come down to Philly and New York and actually look at what is going on here.
Secondly, the transit takes too long to get to the car, with most rides out to terminals taking some one hour or more from the city center.
That must be why both SEPTA and LIRR parking lots are well used with often very few spaces left.
Here, you take my point out of context. There is no need for me to further rebuff your point.
AEM7
The idea is that you park your car within a reasonable commute to your place of work. Many drive from western New Jersey and Pennsylvania go to lots well within half hour rapid transit commute because the areas in which they live are NOT serviced by busses or the expense based against their salary is phenomally excessive.
Right. At least CI Peter got my point. The economics and dynamics of the commute-to-work market is totally different to what someone was proposing earlier, that is, permanently leave your car at say Concourse Yd and only use the subway to get to it. The origin-destination is totally different and it's a totally different market.
* Park and Ride works well, although it is not particularly cost-effective from a planet perspective.
* Ride and Drive (i.e. leave your car out of town and ride only transit in town) doesn't work.
AEM7
"Right. At least CI Peter got my point."
And I did too, though I should have been clearer. You took my response out of context.
"The economics and dynamics of the commute-to-work market is totally different to what someone was proposing earlier, that is, permanently leave your car at say Concourse Yd and only use the subway to get to it. The origin-destination is totally different and it's a totally different market."
Not really. It's a case of utilizing a resource for a different purpose. It can be done.
"* Park and Ride works well, although it is not particularly cost-effective from a planet perspective."
False. It can be very cost-effective, esp. in areas of congestion.
"Ride and Drive (i.e. leave your car out of town and ride only transit in town) doesn't work. "
Unproven assertion, and you have zero evidence to support your point (because it hasn't been tried yet). Long term parking lots at the airport work very well. Can you show that, if this contractor were to construct properly a similar lot at an LIRR station or near a subway terminal, and operate it on a long term parking scheme, that it would not work? You can't, until the first one is tried out.
(Say I want to take a day trip to Providence, the combined Subway/Amtrak trip cost is close to $60, while the zipcar would cost $120 or more.)
You don't need a car to go to providence. You need a car to go up to the Catskills, where my in-laws live, and places like that. Even within the region, transit isn't so great in some cases, and readily available care rental would help in a transit oriented life.
Consider what it was like for me to visit relatives in Yonkers -- just over the city line -- before I had a car. I would take the F to the A at Jay Street, then change to the #1 through that (at the time, not sure of now) nasty elevator. This was on a Sunday, when there was a potentially long wait before boarding each of the trains. Arriving at 242nd Street, I'd wait for the Westchester Bus which ran evey half-hour. Finally, there was a half-hour walk up hill. 2 1/4 hours each way was typical. It was 2 1/2 hours each way every month, by subway and New Jersey Transit, to visit a friend in Princeton Junction who way dying of ovarian cancer at the time.
Eventually, we got wise and started renting cars for trips like these. Then we checked the economics and found that (barely) the cost of owning a car was lower. Now that we have a car, however, I assure you that we use it for things that we would have walked to or used transit for if we didn't own it. A little lazy on Sunday morning, and a little behind? We drive the mile to church so we can leave ten minutes before and get there on time (except for the person who has to park). If we didn't have the car, we'd be sure and leave 25 minutes ahead and walk it.
And Metro-North Service offered no advantage?
(And Metro-North Service offered no advantage?)
None whatsoever. The link from the F/A train to Grand Central by subway is not direct (hope that Bleeker to Broadway/Lafayette transfer doesn't drop out of the capital program). We could have caught a train to Downtown Yonkers, but that would have been a 1/2 mile walk up the hill -- farther away from the bus from the subway. Grandma didn't drive, and couldn't pick us up.
We did take the LIRR to Long Island to visit my wife's relatives. They picked us up from the station.
Bottom line, outside the city you'll probably need a car.
Understood.
Cool idea.
I'll take MY trains, even If I had to pay for the ride....for garanteed 45 minute commute. Sure no one watches over vehicle security in the yard BUT how about city street parking (I can write a treatise on street survival)? I would like to leave my car in the yard all week, blast out Friday afternoon, come back Sunday sans grocery load free. No ASotS signage, no parking meters, no yellow cab doors smacking my car and no trucks sideswiping off my mirror. How much power do you think it takes to move a handful of Car Inspectors to 241st/Wakefield??? CI peter
BART in the SF Bay Area and others are involved in several pilot programs to rent cars at transit nodes for short term usage. BART also leases electric cars with chargers at the station parking lots. BTW, New Yorkers already have adopted the rental car for weekend freight routine years ago--which is why most Hertz, Avis etc weekend bargain deals (when the suits have not parked them at meetings) are not valid in the NYC market.) Even at expensive rates cited, for the car in question, its likely cheaper once or twice a month than just the car insurance by the year. Add on maintenance...
Clearly the "social behavior" version of tax policy would severely tax car ownership, which in turn would encourage rental for specific tasks. Think of carpet steamers, or other occasional use machinery. In turn, perhaps the disgusting SUV's would be less numerous if the simple cost of ownership were higher.
Clearly the "social behavior" version of tax policy would severely tax car ownership, which in turn would encourage rental for specific tasks.
Errrr... no. High car ownership cost, given that I want to have a car, would encourage me to use my car whenever I can... So if for one specific task I need the car (e.g. driving out to Ohio, where a rental by the mile is clearly not cost effective), or maybe I can't get credit to rent a car because I am foreign or because of my credit history, then I would:
* Buy a junk car
* Pay the ridiculously high ownership tax on it (or find ways to evade it, for instance by registering it in Canada)
* Drive it for all its worth, because I've already paid the high fixed cost
AEM7
1. Junk cars get you stuck in unexpected places and the rescue costs are prohibitive (even when you are 'mechanically inclined.
2. Tax and insurance invasion schemes do get caught up with especially when you are a civil service employee. You can drive for five years on city streets never having any accident BUT when the BIG ONE comes, your insurance company WILL void your coverage AND the state WILL come after you for unpaid usage taxes.
3. You can drive your vehicle for all it's worth IF you start with a new vehicle under warranty and do the basics....oil changes, tire rotation/replacement, underhood inspection, etcetera.
I had at least seven fully insured company cars which listed me as the primary driver with my primary residence in Manhattan. Just before I went into TA, an elderly man caught caddy-corner in a too small parking space struck the right rear tire, apologised and I left to park around the corner for a service call. The man filed a damage claim...I left the scene of an accident and now pay over two hundred dollars a year for the surcharge. No free lunch for the kind.
I decided to get my own car after having to cough up almost $200 anytime I needed to rent a car. Why? My age (I'm 19). While the insurance is a pain, I will now be able to move without having to look at the bank account because I know the vast majority of my cost in advance. Since it will be used mostly upstate, my insurance also gave me a break.
Before you say that THINGS BREAK ON CARS UNEXPECTEDLY, the same can be said about AMTRAK, so what do you do? You can be out of luck on AMTRAK and miss an event because of mechanical failure or lateness just as easily as a malfunction on a car would cause the same thing.
By the way, I am still very much pro-transport. But CDTA has one good bus route in Schenectady (the 55) and I can't move to and from school on AMTRAK, so necessity required me to get a car.
Only if you really want the car. You missed the point. Fewer of you would want a car to begin with, and a junk car is likely not to meet emission standards.
Either way, you'd be less likely to drive to a New Jersey supermarket if the car wasn't downstairs waiting for you.
But then you'd have to deal with a crappy, overpriced city "supermarket."
>>> offer tax breaks for rental car agencies who make cars available at the periphery of the transit system <<<
I think you are missing the point. The trips would not be a combination of public transport and rented car, but the availability of a car so the person who can make most of his trips by public transit does not feel the need to own a car for the few journeys that need to be taken by automobile.
The rental car locations would have to be throughout the residential neighborhoods, and have streamlined frequent renter agreements so someone can call and say I would like a car in a half hour, and when he arrives 30 minutes later, signs one document which refers to an agreement already on file, and is handed the keys. If a person averages two days a week rental, the cost of the rental car for the two days must be lower that 1/52 the annual ownership costs (amortized price and scheduled maintenance, insurance, registration, garage) for it to make sense. That's a pretty tough business model.
Tom
No, I'm not missing the point at all. I agree it may not be easy. But I also think it's worth trying. It's failure would be tuition in our further understanding of viable transportation options.
(If a person averages two days a week rental, the cost of the rental car for the two days must be lower that 1/52 the annual ownership costs (amortized price and scheduled maintenance, insurance, registration, garage) for it to make sense. That's a pretty tough business model.)
If you are using a car two days a week, it doesn't work. But we need to use a car much less than that.
Our calculations assumed about 20 weekends per month (say 45 days) on trips out of town to visit friends and relatives or go camping. If we didn't own our own car, other trips would be replaced by transit and walking (at the cost of some time) or taxis. For example, it is common for Brooklynites to travel to one of our few large supermakets by mass transit and take a car service or taxi home with the bags, sometimes in twos to split the cost of the ride.
So we have to add up 45 days of car rental, 40 additional car service rides, and additional transit rides for the kids (my wife and I go with unlimited passes anyway, mine is provided by the job as an NYCT employee). Against that, we have the cost of the car, insurance ($1,350 per year liability only), and maintenance. Gas and tolls woudl be slightly lower, but we put on most of our mileage on those trips out of town anyway.
It was close, but that was before we bought the car and before the cost of car rental in NYC soared (in part due to "vicarious liability" -- if the rental car is used in a crime, the rental car company can be sued). Now that our $16,700 car is worth only $6,500, the cost of the car itself will be only about $50 per month for the next decade or so. When we have to buy a car again, however, it may once again make sense not to if rental cars are cheaper and more available.
One problem with car rentals, occasional or otherwise, is the fact that the actual rental charge bears only the slightest relationship to what one actually pays. Most states and many cities have figured out that taxing car rentals to death is a dandy way to raise money without political repercussions. After all, most of the renters who get stuck with these taxes are from other areas and do not vote in the taxing jurisdictions. For their part, the rental companies turn on the hard sell, trying to get customers to pay for exhorbitantly overpriced insurance. Customers who do not own their own vehicles, and therefore who do not have their own auto insurance policies, often have no choice but to pay these extortionate rates.
No way.
Alright, let's see some numbers -- not that I have comparable numbers to boot, but, do YOU?
On the other hand, in low density areas the cost of construction per person served is great... The cost of maintenance per person served is also higher in low density areas, because some wear and tear is caused by weathering and not by traffic.
You are obviously forgetting freight traffic. Your claim that the road serves a lot less persons per mile up in the boonies is correct, but the road also serves the farms where the grain is produced. Most of rural America is farmland. If you calculate the pavement damage and allocate the cost based on the three elements: (1) auto damage, (2) grain truck damage, and (3) weather damage -- with the weather damage allocated equally amongst the auto and grain users per ton-mile (would seem fair), you'll find that the grain trucks, even though only in use for the harvest season, causes some 80%-90% of the damage to the pavement, versus 10-20% for the auto traffic (including tourist, interstate and residential traffic).
In any case, the rural collectors are necessary for various reasons other than the farmers getting in and out. Rural collectors and trunks are necessary for interstate commerce, also for getting products to market. It is way cheaper to produce value added goods in the Midwest where land is cheap so you can build a factory, than trying to cram everything in the Northeast. If we assume the highest value goods are carried by truck, those also contribute hugely (both in terms of damage and their justification) to the cost of building rural roads.
The real wastage in auto-highway investment occurs in the suburbs and the commuter parkways, which are practically dedicated commuter facilities, sometimes not even designed for truck. Commuters are the biggest auto wastage. This explains why I am so hostile towards commuter autos, commuter rails, and subways that carry only commuters. It's a waste of resources.
If you want high transit use (and pedestrian trips) overall, therefore, you have to convince people not to buy the car.
No -- you should align the cost of auto-use with the true social cost.
AEM7
Believe it or not -- and on a related topic -- one quasi-federal agency actually did announce something to try and get people out or their cars and into mass transit on Friday, by trying to get people to relocate to where mass transit is available:
***
By DAVID B. CARUSO
Associated Press Writer
PHILADELPHIA (AP) - Hoping to ease traffic and revive older suburbs, Fannie Mae is offering bigger mortgages to people who buy homes near train stations and bus stops and agree to own just one car.
After a modest debut in a few cities, the program was introduced this week in Philadelphia. Fannie Mae, or the Federal National Mortgage Association, as the company is formally known, is hoping to offer it soon in Washington, D.C., Atlanta, Baltimore, Louisville, Ky., and State College, Pa.
Buyers who purchase a home within a quarter-mile of a bus line or a half-mile of a train station can qualify for a mortgage up to 8 percent larger than they could get under a traditional loan.
In exchange, they must agree to limit the number of cars they own to no more than one per adult driver.
The arrangement was perfect for Charlotte and Benjamin Loveland, who are buying a home in Ogden, Utah, about 40 miles north of Salt Lake City.
The couple had not been planning to use public transportation, but the larger loan is allowing them to buy a four-bedroom house on a street served by a city bus line. Now, Benjamin Loveland plans to take the bus to class at Weber State University.
"He doesn't have to pay for parking. He doesn't have to fight the crowds," Charlotte Loveland said. "He has enough stress at work. We figured using the bus to commute to school would be more relaxing."
The program is aimed in part at reviving older suburbs that fell out of favor when people began driving longer distances to work.
In the Philadelphia area, the "Smart Commute" program is being administered by Citizens Bank in five counties served by buses and commuter trains. The program will cover much of the city as well as older suburbs like Norristown, Chester and Jenkintown.
The program is based on studies showing that people who commute on public transportation can save $200 to $250 per month, compared to the cost of owning, maintaining and insuring an automobile.
"Basically what the program acknowledges is that commuting by train or by bus is cheaper than owning a car, and because you are spending less money, you can afford more house," said Barry Seymour of the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission, which did research for the program.
So far the loan offer is still considered a pilot program.
It began three years ago in a limited and somewhat different form in Chicago, Seattle and San Francisco. In the past year or so, Fannie Mae has backed about $3 million in loans in a 10-block neighborhood along a commuter train line in Minneapolis and recently began offering the program in the Salt Lake City area and Pittsburgh.
In some cities the loans are paired with discounts on public transportation. The Lovelands got six months of free bus passes with their home loan. In Seattle, participants can get half-off on a monthly transit pass.
"I think it is inconceivable that people could live without a car in America. We recognize that reality," said Robert Sahadi, vice president for housing impact at Fannie Mae. "But when people are sitting in traffic all day, the romance of the suburbs can fade pretty fast. We want to give real estate agents something to market, which is that their commute could be much better if they took the train."
I like that.
Expand it. New York should be included in the program, as should Los Angeles, Boston and Miami.
(Hoping to ease traffic and revive older suburbs, Fannie Mae is offering bigger mortgages to people who buy homes near train stations and bus stops and agree to own just one car. )
The real issue here is "revive older suburbs." People continue to flee those less affluent than themselves, and their fiscal and social burdens. It isn't just working class flight from the poor. It's middle class flight from the working class, etc.
Remember when people talked about the "inner city?" That was back in the 1950s and 1960s, when people were fleeing to outer city neighborhoods like Marine Park in Brooklyn, CoOp City, Queens, Northeast Philly, etc. Then came flight from the entire city in the 1970s. Now its flight from suburbs developed immediately after WWII.
This is getting ridiculous.
It's been shown that when city centers get sick, suburbs suffer too. Thus, the flight to suburbia is often futile (in the macro sense).
>>> In exchange, they must agree to limit the number of cars they own to no more than one per adult driver. <<<
Not much of a restriction for a family if the oldest child is less than five years old. After 11 years, when the kid is old enough to drive, how will they enforce the limitation? And if a child can get a driver's license at 16, and becomes an adult at 18, it is not much of a restriction even if the family chooses to abide by it. About the only thing this prevents is the family from owning special purpose extra cars like a restored classic car, a drag racer, dune buggy or RV, or vehicles at a remote location such as at a summer cottage. I do not see it as an effective way to increase use of public transportation.
Tom
But, these cars are still needed for the same people going somewhere other than downtown New York.
This is clearly NOT SO! When I lived in the City, (Both Manhattan and later in Brooklyn) I did not own a car. I never considered it necessary to own a car. I could get to any place I wanted in the New York Metropolitan Area by subway, train or bus.
When it came time for a vacation, I rented a car and drove out of state.
When I lived in Brooklyn, and wanted to go grocery shopping, I pulled a little wire cart behind me, got what I needed and walked back home. The trip was no longer than what mom (on Long Island) would have done with the car and going to a big suburban supermarket.
And if you can't do that, the supermarket would be happy to deliver to your door. Just try *that* on Long Island!
BTW: Can you tell me what state has the MOST cars per capita????
Elias
(BTW: Can you tell me what state has the MOST cars per capita???? )
I'll cheat by looking it up in the NY Times Almanac (1997 data). The answer is New Hampshire (.63) Live free or die. Connecticut, Massachusettes and Ohio are the other states at .6 or more. It's not just auto/transit use, it's income, and these are affluent states, so they can afford two cars and a third as a spare. New York State was .44.
But New York wasn't the lowest. The lowest was.. Arkansas .34, with Texas right behind at .35. With little transit, those in these states may need a second car, but many who live there cannot afford it.
North Dakota has more miles of road per capita than any state in the nation. There are approximately 166 miles of road for every 1,000 people. Therefore, we have a very large road network with a small population base to support it.
North Dakota has the second smallest department of transportation, in terms of employees, in the nation. Only Hawaii is smaller.
NDDOT maintains more lane-miles of roads per maintenance employee than any other state in the nation.
In North Dakota there are more vehicles registered than there are residents of the state.
http://www.state.nd.us/dot/facts.html
If I recall correctly, some of those roads may be DoD-related. Minot and Grand Forks AFB are up there and is there not also a B-52 or B-1 (or B-2 now?) bomber base there too - don't some of those roads service the bases?
>>> When I lived in the City, (Both Manhattan and later in Brooklyn) I did not own a car. I never considered it necessary to own a car. I could get to any place I wanted in the New York Metropolitan Area by subway, train or bus. <<<
Of course your wants and needs accommodated themselves to your life style. I was without a car from last September through June, and therefor dependant on public transportation. I was able to maintain a reasonable life style, but restaurants I used to go to regularly became so inconvenient that I no longer wanted to go to them and located new ones on transit lines. When driving I would compare the ads from several supermarkets and patronize the one that week with the specials that attracted me. While using public transportation, and having only one really convenient supermarket, I no longer looked at specials from other markets and did not miss them.
New York public transportation is much better than Southern California's, but whether you realized it or not your choices were dictated to a certain amount by the transit system, and if you never were independent of the transit system, you could not make a valid comparison.
Tom
Was watching "Dog Day Afternoon" this weekend, & at the beginning of the movie, the police summon Sonny's wife from outside a McDonald's under an El. Where is it? The one at 25th Ave. under the West End? Just curious...
After 26 years since the movie was made the McDonald's may not be there anymore.
As far as I know, the McDonalds is still there, but the el isn't. It's the corner of Queens Blvd. & Jamaica Ave., under the old Queens Blvd. station on the J line. As a matter of fact, my first day on the road as a conductor way back when I worked job J301 which started at Queens Blvd. just after 12 noon, and I grabbed a quick bite in this same McDonalds before I started work for the day.
Do work trains opreate the same way as regular trains (a master controller and brake valve stand), or are they operated a different way? Last week I saw a work train pass through canal street and the T/O looked like he was sitting sideways!
They have totaly different controlls. for one thing W/T have two type of air brakes. One for the hole train line and the other just for the Diesel. It is hard to expland how they work, only thing I could say is that it took me about a mouth to get comfable enough to opt. one the right way. You have to know how to play with the brakes to keep the train under control at all times, since if you take a train line brake it take about 10seconce or more(Depernds on the train lenth) for them to work and to release. As for sitting sideways, yes he was. You have to sit like that to look out when you are pulling a train. When you are pushing the train you can sit strate but you might be looking at cars infront of you and can't see anything else. This is why you need to have a very good partner up front telling you way inavent to slow down or thing like that.
Robert
What effect will CBTC have on work trains? I'm sure they won't have CBTC in work trains.
Know one know whats going to happen with work train and CBTC. I brought up this a few mouth ago.
Robert
Locomotive Brake and Trainline?
Sounds like Freight hauling to me!!
Then add in when you are operating from the wrong end of the train and have someone with the big earphones riding up front callnig back the signals...ohhhh....sound like fun...
Thank you to the last MOW train I saw, they ended up sitting in the station for almost 20 minutes but he shut down the prime mover and didn't stink up the place.
I like the work trains I just hated the Hours of work. I was PM, and as for TA work rules PM shift can start anywere from 12:00PM to 9:59pm and at 10:00pm that becoumes Midnight shift. I used to get alot of job that started at 9:59pm and I would not get off untill 7:00 or 8:00am or later then next moring. This depended on who I was working with that night. So for these guys are so money hungy that it can take them 30mins to go from Pacific Street to 36th Street. I mean that you could wake the track faster then they would go. I don't mind making money, but when your wife has to get to work and you have to watch a kid, it get hard. It was even more so when I move to NJ. I would say to anyone who can do these hours who don't have the same thing that I have, I mean no kids you have to watch when you wife goes to work and such. It is a good thing to learn within the TA.
Sorry for just rambling on.
Robert
What does "pulling" and "pushing" meam?
Engine in front vs engine in back !!
Since there was a recent post about an el in the movie Dog Day Afternoon, what movies do you think have the best shots of subways or other transit? I can only think of one that I've seen personally, a French movie released last year called Amelie. It had lots of shots of trains on elevated sections of the Paris Metro as well as scences in underground stations, some scences on the Paris RER commuter trains, and even a good shot of a TGV locomotive parked in a train station. I know there are more out there, but I don't see nearly as many movies as some folk.
Mark
Ghost had some decent ones.
The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3.
Saturday Night Fever
Money Train - but the R30s with the door chimes (why couldn't they model an R46?) are bogus.
Here are some more,
The French Connection
Avalon-Great PCC shots
The Incident
Speed-LA Red Line and a Fishbowl
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, "Running Scared" with that excellent chase scene on Chicago's subway and Loop.
--Mark
I only remember hearing door chimes once, and they were on that R-62 4 train.
An interesting thing about Money Train: the R-30s were used in all scenes filmed on the subway set while all scenes filmed on the actual subway featured R-62s.
Speaking of Saturday Night Fever (which was shown on AMC Sunday night), did anyone notice the goof they made on the subway scenes. It wasn't germain to the plot at all, but basically, John Travolta's character, Tony Manero boards the RR in Bay Ridge (not sure if at 95th St or 86th St, may have been the former, since he was coming from the base of the Verrazano Bridge after his friend Bobby C. had fallen to his death from the bridge), and he is headed to Manhattan to meet Stephanie. So he rides aboard an R-27 or R-30, there are various scenes of different trains (mostly R-27/R-30s, though in one scene an R-44 or R-46 passes by (couldnt tell which). Anyone, he finally gets of the train, supposedly a Manhattan-bound train coming from 95th St, as he is walking to the exit, you see the rear of the R-27/R-30 leaving the station--displaying "RR ASTORIA"!!! Now if he had been on a Manhattan-bound RR the sign shoulda been set to "95th Street" on the rear car, which means either the sign was set wrong or the director blew it (like I sad it was not relevant to the plot at all, I may have been the only person to notice it).
Are you talking about one of the final scenes in the movie? That was an R32 pulling out of the station - and I believe the interior of the car he was riding was consistent with that.
Hmm all the cars I saw, except for the R-44 or R-46, seemed to be R-27s or R-30s, didn't see any R-32 fluting on the cars, just that hideous silver/blue stripe paint scheme of course covered by a mountain of grafitti. If I can ever find my VHS copy of SNF I will take a closer look.
You're right. There were no R-32's used in the underground scenes. I think he's referring to the R-32's which you see on the El in the beginning of the film. Note the blue front and side doors (pre-GOH). Also, did the RR follow the same route as the current R?
No it the didn't The RR ran the same route as the R through brooklyn and Manhattan but in Queens It would go up to Astoria instead of going to the Queens Blvd. IND. So the routing was
95 st 4 ave. - Ditmars Blvd Astoria Queens
Adam
Thank you, Adam. Kinda wish the subway kept the double-letter routes. How well I remember the GG, but I digress....
I saw it, too. The funny thing is, Travolta is seen boarding at 53rd St., which as we all know is quite a distance from 95th St. It's yet another shining example of producers figuring no one would notice or care.
BTW, the cars at the beginning of the movie on the West End are R-38s.
The plot in "Closing Doors" all hung, of course, on Gwyneth Paltrow's character either just catching or just missing a London tube train (hence the title).
Risky Business. Great shots of the L and subways.
Ya gotta admit it...making love to "Lana" on the L is a tantalizing proposition!
I loved the way they threw out the "bum" who was riding the train so they could "get it on". Oh yeah, Lana was "hot".
Chuck Greene
How many movies would have a "sex" scene on the subway. Or even in a station or in the tunnel (of love?)?
I'd have to say "Ghost". It has some scenes in the abandoned lower 42 Street station, and also at Myrtle-Broadway.
In the scene with Patrick Swayze and that other ghost in the lower 42nd Street station, a few trains pass by without stopping. If you look closely, I think those trains were "J" R-40M's.
R-10's would have been a nice touch, would have made it seem more like it was back in the day when it was the "Aqueduct Special". At the time "Ghost" was filmed, they were just in the process of scrapping those cars.
You want R-10's? Check out the following two films: "The Pawn Broker" with Rod Steiger and "The House on Carrol Street" with Kelly McGillis. Both feature R-10's. "The Pawn Broker", which is a truly classic film with a tour-de-force performance by Steiger features them in their delivery livery while the "House" has them in the green GOH scheme. "House" is very nice little period who-done-it that is quite accurate as regards to set dressing. The street scenes feature such things as the proper type street signs, mailboxes etc. from the period. Nice shots of an old NYC "S" motor in the Grand Central Station tunnels too. Unfortunately, it is not available on video. It is shown on cable movie channels often though.
Another movie with R10's is "Jacob's Ladder" which was filmed at the lower platform at Bergen Street on the G and F lines.
And lower Bergen still had it's tiles back then yet! You can see the little IND "Bergen"'s very clearly.
I read somewhere that they put tiles on the walls at Bergen lower level just for that movie.
Frank, are you sure about House on Carroll St?
I have a VHS copy of the movie.
IIRC the R-10s weren't used on the Aqueduct Special, at least not in the 60s. Back then it used R-1/9s and possibly R-38s.
True, but when "Ghost" was filmed, R-10's were the oldest cars still in service, and I dare say they much more closely resemble the R-1/9's than do the R-40M's.
I'll have to look next time. I believe a lot of filming was done on an R40M or R42 (forgot which and don't feel like pulling out the movie), as that is what the interior shots are one of those classes. Maybe they "rented" an R40-42 and brought it to the lower 42 street for the filming. The scene where lower 42 Street actually plays 42 Street has R40M's or R42's running through (without stopping oddly enough) Also, in a few of the scenes when he is looking for the resident ghost on the train, or walking through the train, every so often you get a get a quick glimpse of an IND "42" from the tile in that station (even in the scenes where it's not supposed to be 42 Street.)
There is also a scene of a J train (R40 or R42) pulling into the Myrtle Ave station (with that old abandoned theater that used to be there in the backround) and Patrick Swayze gets out onto the platform, and then later you see him walking under the el structure at that station. The "vilain" in the movie actually gets killed and taken by demons right under the Myrtle-Broadway station in a creepy scene.
It's funny, but before the "J" pulls into the Myrtle station, you see a shot of what looks like a 3 train (R62) at I think where the New Lots line comes out of the tunnel near Utica. Well that's okay, because it is "Hollywood" - Actually the "J" train Patrick Swayze rides on starts at the "Franklin Ave" station (aka 42 lower level) turns into the 3 train at Utica (only a railfan would notice all this though) and finally pulls into the Myrtle-Broadway station!
The trains in the lower level scenes at 42 St in "Ghost" were R38's, not R40M or R42. The R62A coming out of the tunnel was at Dyckman Street on the 1/9 line. Even the resident ghost was on a mock-up set of an R38. Notice the windows and the roll signs. The give-away that its a mock-up is that GOH R38 do not have the openable part of the window 2 sectioned. All openable windows became single-sectioned on R32 and R38. The Myrtle Ave scene is with an R40 J train and a parked R42 M train on the center track.
The best scene is when Sam finds out Carl is involved. When he tries to hit Carl, R32's in the original form make a double run by at the Park Place station on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
The first subway scene where Sam and the killer board is meant to be Franklin Street, not Franklin Ave.
Okay brooklyn, you made me pull out the movie just like I said I didn't feel like doing - lol. You are right they are R38's - noticed it instantly with the benefit of having the movie right in front of me (my other post was just by a vague memory of the movie, as I hadn't watched it in a while). The J train is a full length train of R40M's (distinctive R40 dent on the exterior.) As for the set vs. real train of R38's, some may be sets, but some are no doubt real.
In the scene where "Sam" goes through the "torture" of his killer "friend" trying to seduce his wife and runs to the subway afterwards, he goes down the escalator at the lower 42 Street station to the station called "Franklin", and runs through the train, if you watch the frames of Patrick Swayze running through the train frame by frame, you can see the "42's" from the lower level very clearly outside the windows, so some of the "on train" scenes were filmed on real R38's.
As for the Franklin Street vs. Avenue (the pillars just say Franklin), I don't know - but do know that it was filmed at lower 42 Street, as the escalator is very clear, and an old painted sign I've seen in photos of the abandoned 42 street (directing people to the upper level)is in the scene very clearly in the scene where he jumps on the train.
I saw a movie last week (a funny cop movie circa 1990) that was supposed to take place in Williamsburgh, Brooklyn. At the begining there was an R38 on the Jamaica El.
At the end, there was a TTA subway (Toronto Transit Auth.) in a subway station. I stopped the tape, and clearly saw the TTA logo in the middle of the subway car, though they put an MTA logo on the glass of the doors.
The movie version of "Car 54, Where Are You?"
Sam and Molly lived in Tribeca or Soho. Most likely it would be Franklin Street being there is no Franklin Ave in Manhattan. But the shot is at the lower level 42 St platform. I also mentioned the scene with the unrebuilt R32's on Franklin service. Brings a tear to my eyes every time I see the run-bys in that scene.
Yeah that is a good scene with the run-bys.
It's funny because they get off at Myrtle-Broadway station, and walk to "Willy's" house (and can see one of the buildings that is near that station in the backround of when they go to the fortune teller near Willy's house), but have the Franklin Shuttle going by in another scene that's supposed to be in the same location (but not really quick walking distance from Myrtle-Broadway)- but it's Hollywood, so anything goes.
Lest we forget The Warriors. Then there's Class of '44, with a brief run-by pan shot of the Museum Triplex train, running empty.
Speaking of Saturday Night Fever, did anyone catch the train markings on that RR train John Travolta boards near the end? The bulkhead signs are OK, but in one particular shot, the upper destination sign is set for 168th St. Couldn't make out the rest of it; chances are the widescreen version would show the rest of it. Since the bottom sign is set for 95th St., you might think the upper sign says 168th St. Jamaica; hence the old RJ settings. However, the RJ was long gone by the time SNF was filmed. I caught another gaffe: as the train slows to a stop with Travolta aboard, the station signs say 45th St. looking out from the inside of the train. After the train leaves and Travolta gets off, all of a sudden we're at 53rd St. Oops!
The movie is old enough, though, that some TA rollsigns might have still had the old destinations on them.
If I'm wrong, let me know...
I ddn't catch the route sign setting in that particular shot. The R-27/30s still had their original side destination curtains in the late 70s; however, they got new route signs, both front and side, when the Chrystie St. connection opened.
Speaking of Saturday Night Fever, did anyone catch the train markings on that RR train John Travolta boards near the end? The bulkhead signs are OK, but in one particular shot, the upper destination sign is set for 168th St. Couldn't make out the rest of it; chances are the widescreen version would show the rest of it. Since the bottom sign is set for 95th St., you might think the upper sign says 168th St. Jamaica; hence the old RJ settings. However, the RJ was long gone by the time SNF was filmed. I caught another gaffe: as the train slows to a stop with Travolta aboard, the station signs say 45th St. looking out from the inside of the train. After the train leaves and Travolta gets off, all of a sudden we're at 53rd St. Oops!
Sounds like something for nitpickers.com!
If you look, you'll also note the then-new R-46's still with the blue stripe flying past while Travolta is waiting at 53rd St. I saw the film three times on Sat., and unfortunately no where are the car #'s of the R-27/R-30's shown. I got a kick out of seeing the original side curtains though.
If you look close as that R-46 train goes by, you'll see R-27/30s laid up on one of the express tracks. I caught a brief glimpse of an 8300-series car number as Travolta boarded the train for the first time. Someone should have slapped him on the wrist and said, "Eh!! No smoking on the train! Capeesh?!?"
Night Hawks with Sylvester Stallone has him and Billy Dee Williams chasing the bomber on a train of R1-R9's as well as a chase through the 63 Street Tunnel during construction.
Did your heart leap up into your throat when Stallone kicked out that storm door window? Mine sure did.
There was one glaring inaccuracy in that scene though. When he reaches inside to open the storm door, it's unlocked!
Peace,
ANDEE
Sylvester Stallone was alse in a subway scene in Bananas, with Woody Allen. He played a street thug who Allen pushes off the train as the doors are closing, only to have the doors re-open.
I also want to include this TV movie from the 70's(very difficult to find) called "Dreams Don't Die" about a Brooklyn kid who turned to bombing trains and got caught by TA cop Paul Winfield while painting a parked R27/30 at Hoyt-Schemehorn Station on the wall track. Close to the end has him doing another train in either Coney Island or 207 St Yard. And we must include "Beat Street, Body Rock, Wild Style, Death Wish( with Charles Bronson), The Warriors, and Fort Apache, The Bronx".
Pi (an excellent indie film from a few years back) has a couple of scenes in subway stations. One scene in particular is quite amusing. It starts out at 47-50 Street in Manhattan, but all of a sudden the signs for 15 Street in Brooklyn appear even though according to the storyline the entire scene takes place in just one station. In his commentary on the DVD, the director explains that the movie was made on a very low budget without an MTA filming permit. The crew began shooting the scene at 47-50 in the middle of the night, but had to move elsewhere when the station began to get too crowded.
The 1984 movie "Streets Of Fire" has excellent footage of Chicago's L and subway.
In the closing scene of the 1933 Movie "Buzzin' Around", you can clearly see a BMT standard in the Avenue M Brighton line station as Fatty Arbuckle, Al St. John and Petey the dog, ride a bicycle/bathtub down Avenue M.
http://subway.com.ru/vitagraph/buzzin1.htm
Here is the image from Buzzin' Around showing Ave. M station.
Check this out:
http://www.chicago-l.org/multimedia/index.html
Graham Garfield's excellent website on the Chicago "L" (a good companion to nycsubway.org, however no message board) has an entire section on the "L" in various movies and TV shows, as well as other sound bites. Pretty interesting to peruse!
A couple of movies involving the Chicago "L" that come to mind are "The Hunter" with Steve McQueen and "Ali" with Will Smith. Both movies included cars that are now at the Illinois Railway Museum. :-)
Frank Hicks
"Adventures in Babysitting" features 6000-series cars.
Which was actually an incredibly accurate Toronto studio mockup.
I don't think they ever ran anything resembling Chicago's 6000-series cars in Toronto.
There was a recent film featuring Judge Reinhold which is set in Chicago, and while it doesn't have any subway footage, it does have - streetcar tracks! When I saw it, I thought, wait a minute. Chicago hasn't had streetcars since 1958. When the credits rolled, everything fell into place. Some scenes were filmed in Toronto.
I know the hosptial in K-pax had an El running behind it, not sure where exactly it was supposed be, it coulda been the 1 or 9 at 125th, any of the bronx IRT lines, or the MN park ave Viaduct. I got the feeling that the film was either Southern Bronx or Northern Manhatten.
Another movie of about the same age is Don't Say a Word, which in which the subway in lower manhatten (1,9? N,R? 4,5? I think 1,9 at South Ferry, but I'm really not sure), where the girls father was killed. It also had scenes from Potters Island and the Island next to it, which I managed to find on Kevin Walsh's excellent site.
That's all i can think of for now, and it's late, so screw any research.
>
http://www.compleatseanbean.com/dsaw-11.jpg
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0260866/IMG0094.jpg
These are the only two Photos I would find for Don't Say a Word, the latter looks like a hell of a 12-9, at least the Girl apparantly doesn't blame the T/O.
Anybody wanna play 'Where was this Picture Taken?" Or is it a set?
And I forgot, In Kpax, there are scenes with Jeff Bridges on a MN train heading out of the city, IIRC.
Could this be the lower Nevins Street station? From the mosaic on the wall it certainly appears to be a Contract One or Contract Two IRT station.
It's Lower Bay Street in Toronto.
See:
click here
Yeah, that poster for the Toronto Globe was mucho careless.
Wow, that had me fooled, at first glance it could pass for a NYC station!
That photo, at a quick glimpse, could be a double for Grant Ave on the "A" line.
--mark
The remade ''Taking of Pelham 123''.Toronto,for GOD'S sake,looks Nothing like New York....
It's also nothing like the original, either. Awful, awful, awful.
"the Babysitter"(?), with Elisabeth Shue, had a sequence with the babysitter and her charges inside a CTA 6000 class.
"Little Nikita" featuered the San Diego Trolley
"Malcolm" was about an idiot savant tramway buff who uses his knowledge of the Melbourne Tramway system (The Met)to plan a robbery. It include a "getaway" tram.
Adventures in Babysitting...yes I remember Shue fended off a gang called the Lords of Hell on an L train.
Mark
BTW, has anyone yet mentioned "Die Hard 3"? If this has been canvassed here before, then I apologise in advance, but does anyone know about the Redbird - if it was a real Redbird - that was wrecked in the subway station bombing, which I assume was meant to be somwhere downtown on the 1-9?
Die Hard 3 was used with R30 for the bombing scene. And the station was Wall Street on the 2 and 3 line. Some scenes with Maclane on the train were on R26/28's. I still wonder how they made that cab on the left side of the train. 2 cabs and the storm door still with a railfan view. A redbird version of a full width cab but with 2 separate cabs.
I guess the Paoli cops should get rubber bed sheets!
I consider myself a civil libertarian, but I don't have much sympathy for this guy if the facts as stated are correct.
- A police car parking lot is not a place where the public has the right to be, any more than a subway yard or a bus parking lot is.
- He was supposedly asked to go away and came back. If I asked someone to leave my front yard and he came back, I would want himaarrested too.
It might still be overreaction by the police, but it strikes me as totally constitutional (always assuming the facts are as stated).
It also doesn't strike me as a major crime, but then again no one is saying he's going to go to jail for years or anything.
This can only happen in Paoli. That's Philly suburbs for you.
In Boston, the police officer would probably just lamp you one and told you to eff off the property.
The following are a list of service changes that I believe should be implemented on the Division B(IND/BMT) routes
A LINE-Have all Leffetts Blvd trains rerouted to Rockaway Park(See C Line)
B LINE-No changes
C LINE-Extend from Euclid Ave to Leffetts Blvd. Late nights Shuttle train to operate between Euclid Ave and Leffetts Blvd
D LINE-Have D trains make local stops between 59th Street and 145th Street late nights and weekends when the B Line does not operate.BTW This change can be implemented right now since its only a 2 or 3 min. differnce and no additional trains or crews will be needed
E LINE-No changes
F LINE-F trains to operate express between Continental Ave and 179th Street and between Jay Street and Church Avenue weekdays between 6AM and 7 PM- See V Line
G LINE-Discontinue service between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave evenings,nights and weekends(See R Line)
Extend from Smith/9th Street to Church Ave
J/Z LINE-Restore J Line service between Chambers and Broad Street weekends. Extend peak direction skip/stop service span. Implement reverse peak skip/stop service which the TA did in 1999 when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed for the summer
L LINE-No changes
M LINE-No chnages
N LINE-No changes at this time
Q LINE-No changes at this time
DIAMOND Q LINE-Redesignate as T Line to end confusion
R LINE-Restore 24 hour service between Continental Ave and 95th Street
V LINE-Extend from Continental Ave to 179th Street and from 2nd Avenue to Church Ave(See F Line)
W LINE-No changes at this time
FRANKLIN AVE SHUTTLE-No changes
GRAND STREET SHUTTLE-No changes
ROCKAWAY PARK SHUTTLE-Will operate late nights only when A trains do not operate to Rockaway Park
Any commnets
Thank You
>>>"G LINE-Discontinue service between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave evenings,nights and weekends"<<<
Here we go again, the G line riders (Greenpointers) are asked to
take it on the chin and do the "Citi-Corp" shuffle at Court House
Square, 24/7. We love you too Barry, BTW how often, if ever have
you done the Court Square~23rd/Ely transfer?
;| ) Sparky
This time, I gotta agree with you, John. The weekend G service needs to stay.
But this is Subtalk. So no harm done.
One favor: Before you continue whining about the G transfer at Court Square, do yourself a favor and try the transfer at 53-Lex a few times.
..."One favor: Before you continue whining about the G transfer at Court Square, do yourself a favor and try the transfer at 53-Lex a few times."...
Odd you should mention that. If for some reason the B-61 bus
from Brooklyn to Long Island City, is OOS, then I have a family
member (Mrs. Sparky) who would have to use the dual "Citi-Corp"
transfer to reach Grand Central Terminal to go to her place of
employment in White Plains. (She does have a disability and uses
a walker) Difficult enough of a dual transfer thru "City~Corp
Hell" for those who have to do it 5 days/50 weeks a year to reach
the East Side IRT from Greenpoint.
Ron, like you said this is SubTalk and I do have to defend the hood.
You know "Krakow on the East River". But now you know, there are
some personal issues involved also.
;| ) Sparky
Granted.
The MTA provided elevators on the IRT side of the Citicorp. transfer, but they still need to make the IND side ADA compliant. I think that's in the current Capital Plan, but I'm not sure.
It would make Mrs. Sparky's transfer a little easier.
Thanks Ron,
Without getting into a rant about NYCTA elevator & escalator services
to assist folks who need it, a nicer rephrased opinion from the Mrs.,
they leave a lot to be desired. Without going to the 51th Street
or 23/Ely transfers, the moving stairways at Grand Central from
Lexington Avenue mezzanine to the Flushing Line platform
are operational only 50% of the time. That's for both locations.
The Mrs. doesn't have very nice thoughts of the TA Station Manager
at Grand Central.
Forget about the elevator from mezzanine to terminal level,
unless you wear a mask to disguise the stench.
Remember the underpass at 42nd/8th.
This is what she tells me and this is on average
four days a week. 'nough said from a commuter.
;| ) Sparky
"Remember the underpass at 42nd/8th."
I walk it all the time. It's not bad at all (except it's a block long).
"Remember the underpass at 42nd/8th."
Ron, maybe I should have stated this in a more correct time frame.
I was reffering to the underpass from the northend of the south
platform to the southend of the north platform, that is no longer
used, since the rearangement of fare control at 8th Ave/42nd Street
to include a free transfer to the Times Square Station.
I was reffering to what it was to change from Downtown 'E' to
Uptown 'A', 'AA' or 'CC', back when. Not the current configuration
at that location. If you were on downtown platform and went up
you had to exit fare control or visa verse on uptown platform.
These were the stairs that went down to lower level and across.
;| ) Sparky
Thank you. Noted.
Eliminating the G on Queens Blvd. during weekends can be accomplished quite easily if the E ran local along Queens Blvd on weekends as well as late nights.
I am saying is to terminate the G Line at Queens Plaza NOT Court Square.
All you have to do is to change trains.
It was done from 1976 to 1990 first late nights and then as of 1987 weekends when the R operated full time between Contental Ave and 95th Street.
This way Queens Blvd riders will have improved access to Manhattan
Yes G Line riders will get the short end but lets face it you have more Queens Blvd local riders going to Manhattan then Brooklyn
Thank You
..."I am saying is to terminate the G Line at Queens Plaza NOT Court Square"...
it's a nice idea, but without additional trackage and tremendous
costs, which have been discussed on other posts, it's not practical.
..."It was done from 1976 to 1990 first late nights and then as of 1987 weekends when the R operated full time between Contental Ave and 95th Street....
this option is no longer applicable, now that there is a QB connection
to 21th~Queensbridge from both local and express QB tracks.
;| ) Sparky
It still is possible to terminate at Queens Plaza off hours. There is still a middle track north of Queens Plaza and before 36th Street and since short trains are used even though there is now the connection to 63rd Street just south of 36th Street
Thank You
It's possible, but why do it? Transfers are available at Court Sq.
it seems that Greenpointers are so damn lazy they hate walking so much thats why they complain about the transfers.it all comes down to people being lazy.
Would it be closer if there was a transfer from Queens Plz to Court Sq? I could see the end of a parked G train at Court Sq from the local track at Queens Plaza, and it doesn't look like that far a walk.
It's also quicker. It takes less time to get from the G platform to the E/V platform than it would if you did the transfer at Queens Plaza, factoring in the amount of time the G train would take to go from Court Sq. to Queens Plaza, and the time it takes an E/V to get from Queens Plaza to Ely Ave.
If you are transfering to an E/V, the formula is correct.
I would use the "CitiCorp" corridor if that were my destination.
But then again, dependent on where I were to disembark in Manhattan,
it's also the walk forward on my home station or Court Square,
then the walk at 23rd/Ely to where I prefer to exit the E/V in Manhattan.
It's not laziness on the part of Garden Spottersas a tomfool has posted.
But if you require the 'R', it's an additional walk to a
one stop ride to transfer to Queens Plaza and then across.
Then, if you want the 'F', east of Continental Avenue to 179th
or intermediate stops, it's an additional transfer for what
was across the platform at Queens Plaza a/o Roosevelt Avenue.
;| ) Sparky
But if you require the 'R', it's an additional walk to a
one stop ride to transfer to Queens Plaza and then across.
Then, if you want the 'F', east of Continental Avenue to 179th
or intermediate stops, it's an additional transfer for what
was across the platform at Queens Plaza a/o Roosevelt Avenue.
People will adjust.
the G cant end at Queens Plz anymore because of the widening of the tunnel between there and 36th for the 63rd st Connector.there isnt enough space for that anymore.
>>>...there isnt enough space for that anymore.<<<
WEEELLLL... they could always use the space between your ears.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh Andy, that no nica.
;| ) Sparky
Yes, John, I know, but it had to be said.
Peace,
ANDEE
..."Yes, John, I know, but it had to be said"... AMEN
:| ) Sparky
Now a queery between you & I, are you going to be visiting Branford
in the near future? Looking foward to saying HOWDY.
I hope to be there for "NY Days" as I have not visited yet, this year and need to use up my passes.
Peace,
ANDEE
..."Yes, John, I know, but it had to be said"... AMEN
:| ) Sparky
Now a queery between you & I, are you going to be visiting Branford
in the near future? Looking foward to saying HOWDY.
haha very funny ~.~ go ahead,keep it up.I dont give damn anymore.I've dealt with crap like that all my life,by the gods,why stop now right!?
I've done that transfer, it's not that bad...
There are no "people movers" at 9th Street/4th Ave, Lexington/53rd St, Times Sq (to access the ACE from all other lines), etc. Heck, trasferring to the L from the G at Lorimer/Metropolitan is a more ardous experience than the Court Sq. x-fer.
I've used it several times. Please stop whining about this transfer. Others are worse. I refuse to sanction running the useless G along Queens Blvd. because some lazy Greenpointer can't walk a little bit. The people mover even eliminates thiw weak complaint.
you really think so? I've used that transfer a few times already and each times I've seen people actually walk the people mover instead of just stand on it.
I walk on people movers all the time. It's like running without the sweat.
Exactly. I was flying down the corridor. In fact, I have to stop walking prior to stepping off the damn thing or I trip.
They should install one down the corridor connecting the 8th Ave. IND to the Times Sq. complex.
Write to them and ask for it.
yes but the point of it being there is so people DON'T have to walk at all,yet they do it anyway.
Did you read my post? If you walk on a moving platform, you go as fast as when you're jogging without the mover - so you save time without working hard.
Do all of us a favor, would you? It's a little difficult to read your posts.
Suggestion:
First, read carefully what you're responding to.
Second, please use correct punctuation marks and capital letters at the start of your sentences. It helps people understand better what you write.
whatever,i do as i please,i dont need to listen to your nor anyone else.nobody tells me what to do
Then you may find fewer people reading or responding to your posts (or taking you seriously). Is that what you want?
does anyone ever take anyone else seriously on subtalkue?
i havent taken anyone seriously in years. i learn information off this board, and i occasionally post stuff that has a serious ring to it, but it's all a good laugh (or so i feel that way).
aem7
The most serious information is what comes from the NYCTA employees who post here. Then you have the people who don't post their "dream plans" for the subway. Those people are pretty serious. The people who I DON'T take seriously are those who complain all the time, just ask simple and stupid questions, and post all kinds of crazy ideas. I mainly ignore them. But SubTalk is an irreplaceable resource for up-to-the minute news about the NYC subway system. And for those people who keep it that way, thank you very much!
--Brian
Well, I've learned over time wich posters are due greater credence. I've learned a lot on this board too, and have put that knowledge to practical use in my advocacy-related dealing with the TA and local borough governments.
But I have a life off the board, too. Believe it or not.
Yeah, it's fun. Don't take anybody too seriously.
:0)
I've been posting here since 2000[under various names,of course],and also have come to an understanding of the some sort.A ''knucklehead will be a knucklehead'',meaning you are gonna get your subtalk''foamers'' regardless,and it's up to you to respond. I learned that leason [once again]recently with a ''fellow'' poster,and now I FULLY understand. So you live an'learn. My new statement for the day is''It's all Good!''. Thanks.
Are you sure you are 19?
There I thought NYCTA introduced a television train...
Is there really a T train?
AEM7
Is there really a T train?
There certainly WAS!!
Speaking of T Train. I still don't understand why TA never bring back the T Train and use it for South Side Manhattan Bridge Service. Like
B becomee the T
D becomes the W
Orange Q becomes the "Yellow" circle or diamond Q
As in this picture:
Looking at the picture, I can almost smell the steel dust and the sweat and the beach.
Ay yes Steve & Douce Man,
From the arches leading to the Hell Gate to the Beaches of Coney
via the T WestEnd Express.
~Sparky
Is this a redbird before they were red?
This series of car was an IND/BMT car. They were painted red towards the end of their careers in 1993. EXAMPLE
Peace,
ANDEE
Are you sure you are 19?
I'm not gonna even answer that question,you don't believe me? then that's fine,i don't give a damn.believe what 'cha wanna believe,it's not my problem
What are you talking about? Of course you have to capitalize and use proper punctuation! You're not mental, are you?
It may be a case of HPS.
..."yes but the point of it being there is so people DON'T have to walk at all,yet they do it anyway"...
but they are new yawkers, and they dont have to walk on escalators,
but then again, there new yawkers, always in a hurry...
Ron in Bayside, I used his uncapitalized version to respond, think
hell get it.
:|- Sparky
It may be a challenge for him.
uhhh....him? HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU PEOPLE I'M A GIRL!!!!!!! and a very intelligent one too,even though SOMEONE doesn't think so,not mentioning names,but you know who you are.
I was just curious. Even sent you a polite email (which you didn't reply to).
I think you have something valuable to contribute here. I asked you to post more coherently so we could follow your arguments.
Pardon wa,
In the future, now being formally chastised, I will refer to you in
the correct gender. By the way are you a Miss, MS, or Mrs?
;| ) Sparky
There are subway grrls?
DOWN BOY DOWN! :D
V Train, there is a yellow board that conductors keep in the cab in case of an AEM7 sighting:)
Mrs is a scam created by men to oppress women, I just refer to everyone as miss, unless they tell me otherwise (and MIZZ is an even bigger scam for people who are unhappy with their marriage).
O.K., gotcha.
If she doesn't get offended, we'll try and remember that it is ...
Miss Darlene V Train ~ M20. YO K
;| ) Sparky
And whom do you refer to as a HIT?
:0)
Gender SHOULDN'T matter any more than race. I'd hate to think that it matters, we're all subtalkers here (though some get twitchy when asked to admit it) ... just remember that the mighty sphincter muscle is politically correct. Everybody has one and nobody's left out. :)
I'm a Ms. I'm only 19 and not really planning to get married anytime soon
I think people would be moer nietrested in talking to you because you are a girl. It makes sense that you are telling people this, but you don't have to do so in a forceful way. Just get a handle that suggests that you are a girl, like AEM7
and do tell how a handle like AEM7 shows that I'm a girl?
Just putting my 2 cents into this:
Ok, you're a girl. No problem.
I'm sure there are other people in here. Teenagers, senior citizens, Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Native Americans, Arabs, Gay, Straight, Know-it-alls, know nothings and everything else in between.
As long as you can add to the subtalk and bustalk conversations, I really don't want to know about who I'm talking to.
Quite a large body of Brooklyn Techknights.
Thank you Ms Darlene. Welcome to this madness that's male dominated,
but not exclusive.
;| ) Sparky
thats why I'm here so show that it's not completely male dominated.I know girls never have much say in transit,and I wanna change that.
Uh-oh. You ought to join the Women in Transportation Society or something like that. It's called WTS. You might find them on the web. They organize seminars given by distinguished women in transportation all over, they have a New York chapter and a Boston chapter and probably chapters at other places. I have a friend who used to be really involved with this. If you're interested, I can give you her email.
Don't become too feminist. That friend of mine, she's 27 now and still unmarried. Dated the same guy for many years but never got together because she always wanted something in her career and didn't compromise with the guy. You might think it's OK to be alone now, but when you reach the late twenties you would want company.
AEM7
thats why I'm here to show that it's not completely male dominated.I know girls never have much say in transit,and I wanna change that.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU PEOPLE I'M A GIRL!!!!!!!
You actually don't have to tell anyone if you care not to. There are others of your gender, here, who elect not to be identified by their gender - just by their knowledge and opinions.
BTW: Many people take offense to the term, you people.
"and a very intelligent one too"
Without seeming too contentious, by who's assessment and by what standard?
Can someone explain in detail the Court Sq-23rd Ely transfer ie upstairs, downstairs, how far a walk, is the walk a passageway, etc?
Up one flight of stairs. a short walk in the mezzanine towards a corridor. This corridor has 2 moving platforms which whisk you towards the Ely Ave mezzanine. Then another short walk, and down another flight of stairs and your're at the extreme northern end of the E/V platform.
No big deal.
..."No big deal."...
Dependent on your generation. Many Greenpointers are senior in years
and have difficulty manuevering extra transfers, if not required.
My only hope, is that the youngsters in decades from now, will be
more amicable to you when you become a persitent old fuddy dutty.
:| - Sparky
If the elderly can't handle the Court. Sq transfer, they can take the G in the opposite direction to Hoyt St. for an easy cross-platform x-fer to the A train.
>>>D LINE-Have D trains make local stops between 59th Street and 145th Street late nights and weekends when the B Line does not operate.BTW This change can be implemented right now since its only a 2 or 3 min. differnce and no additional trains or crews will be needed <<<
Why?? The A-train already does this late nite and the C on the weekends.
Peace,
ANDEE
Because the B train will be doing this when it resumes operating over the Manhattan Bridge in 2005. It did it for 18 months between 2000 and 2001.
Yes the B did not operate midnight hours so let the D do it
There is a sizeable ridership between 6th Ave and Central Park West
Thank Youi
Manhattan Bridge operations will resume in 2004 if everything stays on schedule.
>>>Manhattan Bridge operations will resume in 2004 if everything stays on schedule. <<<
For purely selfish reasons, I hope that bridge never reopens.
Peace,
ANDEE
it cant and even though you think it can happen,it cant.and i'll tell you exactly why through the lines you mentioned.
A/C:not enough trains to warrent it.there would be a need for extra trains,where would it come from? Mars?
D:TA feels the C being the only local CPW is enough to carry the passenger loads so they'll keep it that way no matter what.
F/V: no way in hell.not enough trains at Jamaica Yard for this.and if its true what I've heard,most R46's are gonna be used to return the G to 6 car trains leaving the F,like the E,mostly R32 dominated.
G: people in Brooklyn along the line would be seriously pissed off if that happened more than they already are,lets not cause a riot.
J:this is the only thing i like.I dont know why the hell the TA doesnt send the J to Broad 24/7.if no one boards at Broad,fine but there will definately be people wanting to board at Fulton because of the major transfer to the other lines.So thats the stupidest mistake the TA has made and i wish they'd change it already.
Q/:it seems the TA likes the circle/diamond express ideas so much thats why we got a 5/<5>,6/<6>,and 7/<7>.if that werent the case i bet those signs on the R62's would've been used ages ago.<5>=10 <6>=8
<7>=11.the T sign doesnt exist on any of the rollsigns on any of the trains in the B division as far as i know so thats why it wont be possible.
and thats about it,i hope you understand now.its great that you came up with this idea,but there are times when things just cant happen and many people fail to realize that.me excluded.
I agree that to implement some of these ideas you will need additional equipment but i totallly diagree with you about the Cental Park West situation.
If the TA believes that the C Line is the only service needed along the 8th Avenue Line between 59th and 145th Street non rush hours then how come the B operates middays and early evenings.
How come the B ran from Stillwell Ave to 145th Street between January and August 2001 when the Manhattan Bridge service changes were made all times except for late night hours ?
There is a market for service between 59th and 145th Street along the 8th Avenue Line to/from 6th Avenue. If not then why did the TA implement the change in 1988?
Thank You
Well....during the weekday yes there is a necessity to run the B with the C throughout the day but not on the weekends.as to why the B ran to 145th during that time period,if you remember correctly,it ran to 21st-Queensbridge during weekends to replace the Q which didnt run during those times,then the construction of the 63rd St Connector started and when it was finished,they had to run trains through there for testing which is why E,F and R trains were rerouted through 63rd St every weekend,mostly the F doing the reroutes.So that means that the B wasnt able to go to Queensbridge anymore so they decided to have it run to 145th St everyday except late nights since they didnt know what else to do with and that seemed the best thing to do.Even then there wasn't a need for 2 locals on the weekends and since they knew that,when 7/22/01 came along, they decided the B would run weekdays only to help the C with the weekday passenger loads and let the C handle the weekend loads since there wouldnt be a problem with 10min headways on the C.To them that was enough.
You make some good points. One minor correction, though:
"if you remember correctly,it ran to 21st-Queensbridge during weekends to replace the Q which didnt run during those times,then the construction of the 63rd St Connector started and when it was finished,they had to run trains through there for testing which is why E,F and R trains were rerouted through 63rd St every weekend,mostly the F doing the reroutes."
The trains were diverted to the 63rd Street tunnel so MTA could shut down the 53rd Street tunnel for repairs.
yes i know,i forgot to add that part.my fault
No sweat.
You are indeed correct on the B rerouting because of the 63rd Street Line was being used by the F due to the construction on the 53rd Street Line.
Please note the following:
1-Back in 1989 NYC Transit was considering routing the B train to Central Park West and to its terminal on 168th Street on weekends but it never implemented the change.(The idea was to operate a Q Shuttle between 21st Street and 2nd Avenue to serve 63rd Street but as i said it never materlizied)
2-When the B and D Lines resume service over the Manhattan Bridge in 2004 and replace the current W and Q lines where is the B going to terminate weekends. True you can run the B to Continental Ave weekends but i doubt that will happen since it is a major differnce in terminals from its weekday operation(Upper Manhattan and the Bronx)and its not really conistent with its overall service plan. I speculate that the B will operate to 145th Street.
3-Another possibility is to operate the B to Continental Avenue all times except midnight hours via 53rd Street and have the V operate weekdays from 145th Street/Bedford Park Blvd to 2nd Avenue. However the problem with this is that both lines will have to switch tracks at 34th Street which i speculate the TA will not like to implement.
Just my opinion and i would like to hear yours
Thank You
There is absolutely no need for B service into Queens.
The MTA can keep the B where it is, serving the Bronx, or it can play around with switching B and C services to reflect an earlier pattern, where the C went to the Bronx. It all depends on rider demand. This has nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge's opening.
Ron,
What i am talking about is when the Bridge is reopened and service resumes to/from Brooklyn what station will be the B Lines northern terminal on weekends?
Yes it does concern the Manhattan Bridge
Thank You
"What i am talking about is when the Bridge is reopened and service resumes to/from Brooklyn what station will be the B Lines northern terminal on weekends? "
Why not the same as it does now?
"Yes it does concern the Manhattan Bridge "
No, it doesn't. The southern terminal changes to Brooklyn; trhe northern terminal is not affected.
Ron,
It does matter and yes it is all connected. Trust me i use to work at Operations Planning
Thank You
Then show us how it is connected. It is not obvious to me, beyond the need for additional subway cars. Since more rolling stock is being delivered, that is being addressed.
Explain this in more detail.
Ron,
If you e mail me your address at BarryLv@netscape.net i will be very glad to explain it too you
Thank You
Barry,
Just click on my handle. My email address is active on Subtalk.
I tried to e mail you Hope you received it.
If not please e mail me
BarryLv@netscape.net
Thank You
I did receive it.
But why not post the answer here, so everyone can read it?
The B currently has no north terminal on weekends, since it doesn't run on weekends.
After 2004, what will serve the West End line on weekends? If the B, it will need to terminate somewhere.
Again, why are the current terminating points when the B runs during the week? What's the big fuss?
You've been saying that whatever north terminal the B has at any given time of the week now, it'll have that same north terminal when the north side of the bridge reopens.
The B currently doesn't run on weekends. It can't have the same north terminal as it does now on weekends unless something else covers the West End on weekends come 2004 (like the W).
I'm at least 95% sure that the B will be back to normal when 2004 rolls around.That means,145th St.-Coney Island all times except rush hours and late nights.rush hours to Bedford Pk,late nights shuttle to 36th St.that other 5% is a very unlikely curveball the TA might throw and change things.but the way I just mentioned is the best and seems like the only one.
If you're at least 95% sure, then you're surer than the TA's planners are.
The exact service pattern you described was in effect for under a year.
and i think it should remain that way.why on earth would they do something different? it'll really be something if they don't stick with that pattern.
I'm wondering where they'll send it midnights if the Stillwell rehab isn't finished first.
It'll probably run to Pacific St, as does the W, until Saturday. With the D and at least one Broadway service running on the bridge, it isn't needed.
this will probably be the service pattern in 2004:
B-145th St-Coney Isl all times except rush hours and nights. To Bedford Park Blvd rush hours. To pacific Street late nights.
D-205th St-Coney Isl all times. (will run to brighton Beach if Coney Island isnt open yet).
Q-57th St-Brighton Beach weekdays.
N-runs over Manhattan Bridge weekends and rush hours only.
Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see. This is "probably" according to whom? Not the TA.
But my point remains that the B service pattern you described was the actual B service pattern only for a few months (modulo Pacific vs. 36th).
I agree. Let's not forget that the Museum of Natural History is at a CPW local stop and is quite busy on weekends.
Is 6 tph (on the C) enough? In a pinch, it is. But seeing as another 12 tph go by on the express track, and those trains are by no means crowded, why not put some on the local track instead? The running time increase is almost negligible; it's more than made up for by the time saved by local passengers, particularly those bound for 6th who now have to transfer at 59th. And at night, why should the local stations get only 3 tph when they could get 6 tph at practically no cost?
The A route is too long for them to send local on weekends would you want to ride the entire A route local?
It would probably be better to run some B trains at 10-15 minute headways on Saturdays and 15-20 minutes on Sundays, (the TA has to save money) to 145 St.
I had the D in mind, not the A. The cost would be six minutes round-trip. That's less than one additional train.
The "car shortage" problem is rapidly disappearing with every new set of R143's being put into passanger service. It's time to really think about service expansion which wasn't possible a couple of years ago.
the R143's are only gonna be on the L and M there for they aren't here for expansion purposes.the R160's will be for old fleet retirements AND expansion purposes.the best the R143's coming in and sending the 40M's and 42's out to CI and where ever else is to prepare the TA for what they gotta think about,which is how service is gonna be once both sides of the Manny B. are opened 24/7.
There will be 212 new R143 cars in service by the end of next year, without a single car being scrapped in their place. That's 212 R40M/R42's which will be available for service elsewhere. That's 16 more cars than the entire current R38 fleet. Already, some ENY R40's have been moved to Coney Island, and many Coney Island R32's are going to Jamaica. This will allow 450' G trains to be used starting next week.
It is the R160 cars which will be used for replacements, with the R38's and slant R40's going first.
yes i am fully aware of that.
Then why did you ask the question if you already knew the answer?
what question? i never asked a question.
Wrong. Every car replaced by an R143 will be assigned elsewhere to provide expanded service. That is the official plan.
well thats about 212 cars,you really think thats enough for any expansion?
There are 10 cars in a full-length train. 212 divided by 10 equals 21 trains, with 2 cars left over.
So in other words, we have 21 additional trains plus a Franklin Shuttle train available.
This is enough to at least equip the L train plus some extra. So the cars leaving the L can go elsewhere -enough to increase service substantially on probably at least 4 other subway lines (like the G, the V, the R etc.)
212 cars is a lot of cars.
Hey Ron, aren't you forgetting that she knows everything and her knowledge of transit is boundless. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
She? V20 is a woman?
>>>...V20 is a woman? <<
From what I've gleened, yes.
And 19 years old at that.
Peace,
ANDEE
yeah and I've said it so many times already,hard to believe not everyone has noticed that.
Sorry. Chicks normally don't hang around here (openly, at least), and your handle doesn't do anything to describe your gender.
Maybe you can change it to "Miss V Train ..."
Why does it matter that she's a girl?
It doesn't. But unless they're hiding behind male handles, women on this board are a rare sight.
the handle no but if you click on it you'll see that the email address is a girl's name,and that isnt my real name by the way.
I like most of these ideas, with 2 exceptions. Extending the V to 179th and running the F express is a bad idea. This was done from 1988-92 and it failed miserably. Community pressure forced the change to current service. Also, changing the diamond Q to "T" is silly. Trains don't have T signs. No real confusion between the two Q routes exists.
Everything else, I like.
'T' is West End BMT ... 'Q' is Brighton BMT and if'n they still
used double letters, we would still have the "GG" along with the
"QQ" and the "RR". Who needs diamonds and circles, bring back the
double letters for the 'B' Division. OK diamonds amd circles for
the 'A' divisions numbered routes.
;| )Sparky
And then there's always the Crayola system...
uhm... No.
You would not want to cut the G for sake of Greenpoint people. This would definetly create a riot. The city is already suffered enough and lets not let our people turn against each other.
Ray Rossi, who currently co-hosts a talk show on New Jersey 101.5 from 2-7 pm weekdays was recently interviewed by "all access.com", a radio trade website. One of the questions:
Q: If you hadn't gone into radio, what would you be doing now?
A: Either baking Italian Bread...since that's the line of work my family was in back in Brooklyn.....or working as a motorman for the New York City Transit Authority.
Mr. Rossi was also heard on "New Country Y-107" before they changed formats, and he was also heard throughout the 80's on Z-100 and WPLJ as "Danny Hernandez" and "Bobby Valentine" respectively. A hell of a nice guy, Mr. Rossi had been heard mentioning "Slant R-40's" on the radio in the past, so I sort of figured he had an interest.
Ray used to be a traffic reporter for Shadow Traffic, which provides the service for WCBS Newsradio-880. Many times when we did "Traffic and Weather Together," we'd each throw in subtle (and not-so-subtle) subway references. My all time favorite was when I mentioned to him live on-the-air that the weather would be great for a Slant R-40 ride over the Manhattan Bridge, and he responded, "Yeah, we'd both be at the Railfan Window!"
By the way, WCBS's long-time staff helicopter traffic reporter Tom Kaminski is also a subway fan, as is afternoon anchor Wayne Cabot. I had Wayne and his family up to Seashore a few summers ago, and they all got a chance to run a trolley.
I always KNEW there was more than one terrific reason to listen to Newsradio 880!!!
An amazingly large number of radio people were once motormen or locomotive engineers. When I left the TA, I went back into radio full time and if I'm not mistaken, Don Imus was once a BLE member. What the correlation is is beyond me, maybe it's those bright blue sparks. :)
Don was a brakie.
Thanks ... wasn't sure (since I really don't care for his schtick) but I do recall him being a trainman of some sort. There's quite a few radio people with backgrounds in trains.
There's quite a few radio people with backgrounds in trains.
Down South Jersey way, Tony Macrie's first job out of high school was night shift at a Philly radio station (technical/electrical stuff), giving him plenty of daylight time to take train photos, of which he has an excellent collection of Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines shots. Today he's president of the Cape May Seashore Lines.
I currenlty work in radio (although not on the air) but I'm a sub buff.
Nice to see RDC's alive and well. Sounds like a nice little line.
Todd correct me if im wrog but we have a few Seashore Members who are active members who are TV and Radio personalities icluding yourself. Stevie
Yes, that's correct Stevie. The host of "Maine's Classical Network, W-BACH" is a fellow Seashore Instructor. We have an active member who's a videographer for the CBS-TV affiliate in Boston, and also a (less active) member who's a traffic reporter for the Boston MetroTraffic operation.
We have an active member who's a videographer for the CBS-TV affiliate in Boston
Is that (or was that) WHDH-TV? Wonder if he knows Ed Chuk ... lemme know off-line, please :)
--Mark
the NBC and CBS affiliates switched channels years ago. NBC is WHDH, CBS is WBZ. -Nick
A nice little line ... I was just there last week!
--mark
The CMSL is getting better and better. I notice that they don't say where the 26-mile excursion on the dinner train goes. Does it just go to the 6H playground and back to Cape May? Where did they get that diesel loco from? How did they get the $ to restore the dining car? I'm surprised that they are maknig $ in this business. It's weird to see a Santa Fe car out east.
AEM7
The CMSL is getting better and better. I notice that they don't say where the 26-mile excursion on the dinner train goes. Does it just go to the 6H playground and back to Cape May? Where did they get that diesel loco from?
The only track on which the CMSL is permitted to haul passengers is their 13-mile excursion track between the 4H Fairgrounds and Cape May City. GP9 #7000 is leased from the URHS; it was the first Geep 9 aquired by the PRR (1955).
canal bridge photo
GP9 pulling a pair of RDC's? (noted that in the bridge pic) ... do they have problems running on their own? Reason I ask is that RDC motors are not that far removed from Chevy engines and once you've dropped them, they're supposedly not all that hard to work on. RDC's used to run on the Hudson line and the old timers would curse them out but loved fixing and maintaining them. Compared to some of the other motive power MNRR was running, they were almost like a day off. :)
I know that the NH disabled the motors on b/o RDCs at one time and hauled them as coaches.
Actually, they should have "dropped out" on their own. I'm not a mechanic myself, but knew some guys that were and they actually ENJOYED working on them and rarely were any motor problems a showstopper for them once they came home to layup. RDC's were pretty hard to kill if metal fatigue didn't get 'em ...
Just to add for giggles, I've OPERATED RDC's in revenue (MNRR with a buddy piloting me) and they're actually a delight. The "stick shift" controller is amusing (and pretty foolproof) and they'd stop like a bus. Pretty simple beasties actually which was what made them so reliable. I was surprised to see a PAIR having to be towed. You lose a motor on a single unit and you usually have another chance to win, with a pair, the odds are "enormity" that you'd still be able to roll. But that was the surprise. Never saw RDC's being "towed" before.
Wish I could recognize a diverging curve before I saw the lower yellow. Heh. I can see that this will take a diverge, so have split it in hopes I've done the right thing before the original thread derails.
I never knew what an RDC was until I moved upstate, but the DESIGN of this 1940's/1950's diesel-powered "bus on rails" can be seen in the R-32's that Budd built for NYCTA. The sides are different from the subway cars but the cab was interestingly similar if the dropdown floor plate wasn't up. Completely diesel powered (with a transmission even) these "busses on steel rails" kept many unprofitable spur lines in operation longer than they would have with traditional motive power and coaches.
When I attended school car, a part of the training was under NYCTA offices on 14th and 8th Avenue in what is now "signal school" (was then as well but the door simulators had been set up there as well for my conductor class since there was a lot of us in our class and Jay Street didn't have enough room) ... I recall seeing some not quite subway cars on one of the signal school training "tracks" in miniature but didn't think much of it at the time (model train layout for TA training - OK) ...
When I moved upstate though, the run from Croton Harmon to Poughkeepsie and back was handled off-peak by a fleet of RDC's and I remember seeing them in the old Mott Haven yards in the Bronx during the Penn Central days hauling cuts of freight cars around. A pretty decent challenge for "locomotives" that had only a pair of appx. 250 HP diesel motors and an automatic transmission as motive power.
First time I got to ride a pair, I was AMUSED at how much they resembled the Mack busses and PCC trolleys in the interior and how much they SOUNDED like a BUS. Especially when they were started. JUST like a BUS. We used to laugh about these being the "bus to Poughkeepsie." I was working in the city still about 3 days a week, so this was a regular ride for me.
Over time, got to know a number of the folks who worked MNRR between the "mighty diesels" and these things and when they found out I had worked for NYCTA, got a few chances to actually operate the things and they were a absolute delight, though quite different from what I had been accustomed to ... the braking was similar enough to R9's with the lapping and all but the controller was strange. A zigzag, serpentined version of a stick shift. And the revving was also just like a bus as the transmission shifted. VERY strange piece of equipment, but comfortable with it pretty quickly.
Here's a spot with some details on RDC's if anyone's interested, I'm PLEASED to see that the folks in Cape May still have some and I just KNOW there's plenty others still running elsewhere. After all, they're BUDD cars. :)
A HREF="http://www.railpage.org.au/comrails/cr_locos/z_cb.html">http://www.railpage.org.au/comrails/cr_locos/z_cb.html
Even have a set of three RDC's which run on my little N gauge desktop railroad along with my "subway" cars ... but the RDC's were a major part of transit and served well ...
Let's try that offsite link again ...
http://www.railpage.org.au/comrails/cr_locos/z_cb.html
much better ...
When I moved upstate though, the run from Croton Harmon to Poughkeepsie and back was handled off-peak by a fleet of RDC's and I remember seeing them in the old Mott Haven yards in the Bronx during the Penn Central days hauling cuts of freight cars around
Do you remember when the Budd SPV-2000s made their debut? I know they were the mainstaw of the Croton - Po'town "shuttle" in the 1980s.
--Mark
Honestly don't remember seeing them at all ... sorry ...
Do you remember when the Budd SPV-2000s made their debut?
Seldom-Powered Vehicles
Well, yes, they were very trouble-prone :)
--Mark
The GP9 was pulling the Budd cars because the chartered trip had been billed as a #7000-hauled trip, since the West Jersey Chapter NRHS had had several previous trips with the RDC's. Three coaches were supposed to be brought in from the URHS, but the coaches' time between wheel/truck overhauls had expired.
Both M-407 (1950) and M-410 (1951) were in operating condition.
Glad to hear that, and in all sincerity I expected that they would be. They were tough railcars to kill. Just seemed mighty weird seeing them being pulled. :)
Just saw on another message board that #7000 left the CMSL yesterday. It was seen moving from Tuckahoe to Winslow Junction.
railroad.net
A gentleman named Kevin Moore, who works for Amtrak, was the program director and P.M. drive guy on WBUX in Doylestown, Pa. a few years back. While he did that during the day, at night he worked at Lincoln Tower in Metuchen.
Maybe when you get up to Unca Todd Glickman's world, radio pays enough but I can tell ya, for most who work radio, you DO need to have a "day job" too. Heh. But over the years, I've known quite a few people in radio who were involved with trains professionally one way or another.
Then there's Mark W. A guy who studied for a career in radio but is a C/R...however, we may still get a chance to hear his voice over the airwaves someday soon...
I'm sure he's gotten to appreciate the enormity of his TA check. I know I did. :)
I'm sure he's gotten to appreciate the enormity of his TA check. I know I did. :)
Why would his TA check be horrendously evil in any way?
"Enormity" meaning "largeness" compared to what radio pays. A TA check is fat city compared to radio pay. Only a handful of radio stations pay well.
Enormity means great evil.
The word your thinking of is Enormousness.
Whoops. Didn't realize. Damn those American Heritage heretics. Until 1996, the usage I used WAS proper.
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/enormity.html
Aw crap ... wrong link ...
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0111.html
I've always thought that enormity meant very large, as in "the enormous turnip". I guess I am the dissenting 41%.
AEM7
Oy, Vey...
Sure Doug.... Spoil the suprise :-) Yes... I will be heard over the airwaves soon....VERY SOON! No more button pushing for me!
Details to come......
-Mark
I can picture it now... Ron Lundy, Dan Daniel, Bob Shannon, Cousin Brucie, Harry Harrison, Mark W?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Uhh... Nevermind....
Wire reports now say that Amtrak and the Capital District Trans. Authority have reached a deal for the Rensselaer rail station.
Highlights are
-the deal is a 50 year lease
-Amtrak must pay a $50,000 annual occupancy fee. Amtrak's annual operating cost for the station is estimated at $430,000.
-Amtrak will take up about one-third of the space in the station. It will also be responsible for much of the maintenance, security and utilities.
By the way, the station is reported by Amtrak to be it's 10th busiest station in the US.
What's the busiest?
Mark
I GUESS that New York Penn Station is the busiest. The last time I checked (a long time ago), New Carrollton, MD was in the top 10.
Michael
Washington, DC
According to Amtrak's website, the 10 busiest stations in 2001 (toal boardings and alightings) were:
1 New York, NY 8,589,534
2 Philadelphia, PA 3,764,734
3 Washington, DC 3,518,423
4 Chicago, IL 2,152,241
5 Newark, NJ 1,430,144
6 Trenton, NJ 1,013,138
7 Boston, MA 989,749
8 Los Angeles 984,870
9 Princeton Junction, NJ 915,396
10 Baltimore, MD 879,136
Don't know how Albany managed to wiggle themselves in with a claim of #10, but there are lots of ways to count people.
CG
>>> but there are lots of ways to count people. <<<
I wonder if those are figures for Amtrak only, or include commuter rail which shares some of the stations. And do the Amtrak boardings include their buses as well as trains? A lot of the boardings in Los Angeles are for connecting buses to Bakersfield to catch the train there.
Tom
I don't think the number includes all commuter rail. Certainly not in New York, but perhaps where Amtrak operates the commuter lines.
LIRR handles 290,000 riders each weekday, or about 75.4 million per year (weekdays 290K x 52 x 5). Somewhere near half of those are probably Penn Station passengers, which would dwarf the Amtrak 8.6 million riders number.
I suspect that you may be right about L.A. It doesn't seem likely that the number of train passengers there is about the same as in Boston (and who knows whether that Boston number is for South Station or all three area stations).
That's great news. The last thing that rail service needs is useless squabbling.
Wow ... that's an IMPRESSIVE shakedown, even for Joey Bruno ... well, one down, now the shakedown for a SARATOGA station begins in earnest. :)
By the way, just noticed something interesting about the train station. "ALBANY" has been completely removed and apparently Amtrak must remove the word "Albany" from the tickets and schedules as well. The stop is now called ONLY "Rensselaer" ... so I would imagine the state capitol will need to move. :)
"The stop is now called ONLY "Rensselaer""
That should be interesting:
Passenger: "Round trip to Albany please."
Ticket agent: "Sorry, Amtrak doesn't serve Albany."
And it deteriorates from there. Before you know it, Rensselaer is only the 20th busiest Amtrak station.
I'm looking forward to this also. One of the things being discussed in CDTA land is actually BUILDING an "Albany" station that's actually *in* Albany. Never a dull moment where the politicos gather. :)
So what is the station code for it now? A stations code of ALB makes no sense for a station named Rensselaer. Removing Albany from the name is really dumb, unless they do some kind of promotion to make sure people realize the "Rensselaer" station still serves Albany as well. The Amtrak website still lists the station as Albany-Rensselaer; you would think this would be the easiest/ quickest change to be made if they were changing the station name.
-Josh
I have no idea what the plan is, and tomorrow's TimesUnion (web site is being changed now as I type) doesn't have any lead as to what's going to happen as yet. But politicos on THIS side of the river are less than pleased, and that's where I heard this little morsel from.
As it turns out though, after all the pressure on Amtrak, the station isn't ready to open ANYWAY ... this was all about reducing the heat on Senator Joey for election day and yet the station CONTINUES to be the gift that keeps on giving. Heh.
As soon as I hear anything, will let y'all know. I would imagine Amtrak will come up with something to indicate that Albany is in Rensselaer or perhaps they can just heave passengers off the train platforms as it blows through Albany on its way to Schenectady. :)
Does anyone out there have any idea to whom I might write to or call up to request once and for all a TVM at the BAYSIDE station on the Port Washington line of the LIRR?..any help would be greaterly appreciated....and by all the commuter that use that station.....
Call LIRR Public Affairs: 718-558-8228
On a site devoted to the real Superman, George Reeves, there's a page devoted to the IND R1/9 trains used in one episode.
Here's the home page:
http://www.jimnolt.com/
Here's the page about the episode in question "Shot in the Dark." One of the pictures on this page is of the train from the episode.
http://www.jimnolt.com/shotindark.htm
And here's the page about the trains used in the episode:
http://www.jimnolt.com/trains.htm
The author of this last page, Bobby Ryan mentions, "a friend of mine, Donald Harold...."
Is this the episode where the motorman on the local train is knocked out and it is set to try to smash into Jimmy Olsen on the express?
As I recall, Superman then splits the third rail with his bare hands to stop the train.
THAT'S the one.
Peace,
ANDEE
From the episode:
"Burt Burnside, alias "The Tulip."
??? :)
THANKS for posting that! :)
That picture of the AA train looks a lot like the same stock footage used in the "Loving Cup" episode on I Love Lucy. The R-1/9s which appear there were also part of an AA train.
The Transit Authority had a good amount of "stock footage" available for motion picture and television producers to use so they'd stay the hell out of the subway. :)
When the "B movie" makers hit their stride in the 50's, the "tripod restriction" came into play and photography by commercial interests in the subway was nearly prohibited and tightly controlled. That's why in movies like "The Incident" the photography of the third avenue el was from rooftops along the route and in other movies, rarely past fare control.
But that stock footage was pretty handy for TV shows and such since all it involved was putting a print on a plane and no expenses for "location shooting" on the other coast for the LA outfits.
Speaking of The Incident, the producers resorted to being sneaky to get their subway footage. They concealed their cameras in bags or boxes, and the cops got suspicious when they heard a whirring sound. The TA did not grant permission to film on their property. Since they paid their fare, the producers weren't technically trespassing; however, thsy could still be in hot water because they were filming without a permit.
While the Lucy subway episode was good and well thought out, the editing was a bit awkward in spots.
Not surprised actually. BoT and the NYCTA were EXTREMELY anal about filming and the city in general was SO hostile to motion picture "filming" in NYC that Mayor Lindsay had to create a "Mayor's office of film, theatre and television" in order to make it even REMOTELY possible for a "film crew" to throw sticks up and mount a camera on them anywhere in the city.
For NYC scenes, it was necessary to do things like that for the longest time. Or use stock footage if you could buy it. Recently, all you had to do was show Rudy that he had a line in the script, and you were IN. :)
I wonder how much the producers of The Wrong Man had to fork over to have Henry Fonda ride the R-1/9s.
They paid through the NOSE if it was real. Assuming of course, that they didn't just have IATSE and the Carpenter's union just CUT one out in Hollyweird. Since it was done in 1956, I'd assume that the transit police had orders to "shoot to maim" if a tripod was dropped on a REAL subway car. :)
The subway footage is the real McCoy. You can even see the conductor between the first and second cars as Fonda gets off at Roosevelt Ave. That was when they ran 11-car E and F trains, although that train didn't appear to be anywhere near the end of the station. IIRC the second car was R-4 494.
Musta had a BUDGET. :)
Now I'm confused. I always thought Superman was filmed in Metropolis.
It's SET in Metropolis. The 1950s TV series used Los Angeles as a backdrop; the movies with Christopher Reeve had a New York flavor. The Lois and Clark TV series hinted at Chicago.
For those interested in an R142 update, Units #6801-6804 are now in New York City. I saw them this morning at 11:00 at NYA's Fresh Pond Yard...still wrapped in plastic.
Chris
Wow it took a long time to come
Don't you mean R143's??
Don't you mean R143's??
No, they were definetely R142's (three doorways on each side).
No hes right. The R142s are delivered by freight through FP Yard. The R142a and R143s are delivered by flatbed truck from Yonkers.
Is there ANYTHING in Paoli worth terrorizing? So far, ALL terrorist attacks have occured in NEW YORK CITY with the exception of a SMALL handful of other "attacks" in and around D.C. So where's everybody flipping out? Atlanta, doomtown and the tri-color area. Remember West Nile? Didn't matter when people in Queens and Staten Island died. By gum, now that it's deep in the heart of them Red states, NOW it matters. Has everyone lost their frigging MINDS?
Please note, for security purposes, no photography of SelkirkTMO is permitted. Embargo enforced by Howitzer administered by a secret controller stand in the basement. Sheesh.
This is for anyone who does maintenance on trains around these parts, or those who know about it.
This afternoon, I was waiting for a 7 at Broadway/71st on the Flushing side. On the Manhattan side, I happen to notice a piece of wood being used to suspend the shoe of one of the sides of 9318! Is this a temporary thing or what? Why wood?
Wood doesn't conduct electricity, so it can be used on the third rail shoe in an emergency. Now whether or not the train should have left the yard like that is another story.
Aren't some rail cars fitted with wooden shoe beams, which treated with a fire-proofing liquid?
Now that I think about it, weren't the dual-mode locomotives fitted with wooden shoe beams?
I personally am tired of reading about vegetable oil, McDonald's, Joe Bruno (much as I dislike him too), and why certain posters are immature (even when it's true).
Maybe this will raise some interest (and then again maybe not):
Suppose the powers that be are allowed to use federal money to build an LIRR supersubway connection from Jamaicia to lower Manhattan (i.e., making the LIRR tracks into subway tracks and extending into downtown),
BUT:
There is no budget for a new East River tunnel. Existing tubes must be used.
How can this be done for the least bucks without screwing existing Brooklyn and Queens subway riders?
(And saying it's not needed would be a digression from this thread too.)
I'd think about extending the ESA project south of GCT to the financial district. That's perfectly within your stated bounds because ESA is approved and funded and the river tunnel is already there and being extended as we speak.
Story:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Train-Collision.html
Coming soon to an L near you - WD's and blind trips. And yet train operators are open competitive. Yeah, that oughta solve it. :)
(once again, no offense to those hired, this is a philosophical thing to me)
I fail to see how promotion within an organization per se guarantees better performance. A CAREFUL screening/hiring process AND serious intelligent training shoud be sufficient. As a parallel ecample, it seems to me that a person with electrical equipment repair experience in an entirely unrelated field who scored higher than a station agent with ten years in the system, is more likely to learn car repair faster. Years ago a chap showed up at a UCal computer det looking for work. No he had never done any programming but WAS a Chess Master. He was hired and performd well for many years in the era of mainframes. The inability of an organization to hire clearly competent individuls because they haven't had "tickets" roperly punched is destructive in the long run.
(The inability of an organization to hire clearly competent individuls because they haven't had "tickets" roperly punched is destructive in the long run.)
You've just described the civil service system. Or would have if you had added the inability to fire clearly incompetent and indifferent employeees because they HAVE had their tickets properly punched. On the other hand, how to replace it and not have managers just pressured to hire the relatives and supporters of politicians in another matter.
as the son of a Federal Civil Servant (29+yrs at the Army Map Service, Corps of Engineers) I have certainly heard the tales of woe as well as watched the painful exercise of filling out the forms "behhing" for the 'in grade' raises to gain enough money to feed the household. Much of the craziness resulted from my father's naturalizd citizen status and lack of US education 'tickets'. Some of this may well be why I work for the $#^*(_)&$$ in the mirror. While I do not wish to see public transit privatised, I am dismayed by the current style.
This hould end the rebuilding debates...
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/16159p-15308c.html
I don't know ... the Comptroller (and the rest of the administration) has an interest in making the economic losses appear as big as possible. No doubt a large dose of speculation and conjecture went into the report. Maybe the amounts are correct, but I'd be very interested in seeing what an unbiased, outside evaluation would come up with.
The amounts are real ... I saw the numbers from a friend in the NYS Division of the Budget. For now, with an election looming, Paturkey's been pumping up the deficit faster than you can say "tax cut" but once the election's over and the axe swinging begins in earnest, the powerpoint slides for budget school in January will be using those numbers. World of hurt is an understatement, and were it not for this being an election year, we would have saved a few of those billions by now in NOT building a few train stations, monument ball parks and other trashings of the state till.
But it REALLY IS that bad ...
The amounts are real ... I saw the numbers from a friend in the NYS Division of the Budget.
The damage done to the city's economy by 9/11 is a tiny fraction of the damage done to the city's economy by 1199.
Ooh - low cut (well below the belt). Bu I'm no fan of 1199...
I used to work for 1199. I worked 4 hours and they paid me for 6.
They also gave people 6-hour pay to go to the farewell party at the Roseland.
This was a private hospital where I worked though, but I'm sure they were screwing the city somehow.
A cool thing about this program was that I was the only white person there. It took me a week to actually notice that.
Won't argue there, and 1199 has invaded upstate as well. It'd be OK if the money actually went to the underpaid WORKERS. But of course, that ain't the game. Never was. But it bought votes for the Paturkey. Imagine if Paturkey WASN'T already popular? If you've got to blow THAT big a wad when you're popular, how much would he have been willing to pay if he wasn't???
You can count numbers anyway you like and justify any numbers large or small as suits your needs.
They mean nothing.
BUT: I've been thinkng.... and I think that more real damage was done to our country by the people at Enron, World Com and Arthur Anderson than by Bin Laden and his followers.
Elias
Umm...just to keep Atlanta's pride, we have over 93 million sq. ft. of office space, not 13 million, which makes it the fifth largest in the country. However, downtown by itself has 15 million.
when i was little in the late 70's early 80's i remember some kind of ad in the stations of the back then LL train. It had drawings or pics of subway cars one after another. but i dont remember what the ad was for or what the ad said at all. Does anyone at all remember this ad and or have a pic of it
In 1979, the NYC subway had its 75th anniversary. NYCT(A) had a poster on station walls depicting various events in the system's history. The poster was red, with black and white photos. Could that be it?
David
I had three of them, sold the first two on e-bay. The third one is coming up in October.
hmmmm no i remember it had drawings or actual pictures of different car types used in that time and they were all in color though
The "Diamond Jubilee: 75 Years of People Moving People" poster called "1904 - 1979: 75th Anniversary of the NYC Subway" ... hanging prominently in my office right now :)
Might you be lookng for the poster called "Catch all The Trains You Missed" with a drwaing of (IIRC) an R-1/9, a Standard and a Triplex?
--Mark
If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was sketch artist's conception of "All the trains you missed" advertisement for the Transit Museum.
The ad was for the Diamond Jubilee. The top car was the 1904 Gibbs car, 1914 BMT Standard, 1916 Lo-V, 1932 R1, 1938 World's Fair, 1948 R10, 1950 R15, 1963 R33 World's Fair, 1964 R32, 1968 R40, and the bottom car was the 1975 R46. Artist was George Gersninowitz.
A copy exist in my house.
Oh, *that* poster .... I'm looking at that one, too :)
--Mark
ohh u have it!!! lol
do u have a pic of it or an extra one lolol
Sorry .... don't have either ....
--mark
http://members.aol.com/philiphom/diamond.jpg
Here is your ad.
http://members.aol.com/philiphom/diamond.jpg
Here's a hypothetical:
A passenger is playing music, with or without headphones, which is audible to everybody else in the car. Would it be rude of everybody else to get up and dance to said music? (As long as we all have to put up with it, we might as well enjoy it, no?)
I take it Spock's solution to the punk playing the radio on the bus in the film "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home" would not be an option, then? :)
Might be. Remember, after Spock nerve pinches the punk, the whole bus applauds.
Trivia Q: What was the name of the song playing on the punk's boombox when Spock pinched him?
Best part of the whole movie in my book. :)
Kevin, I think you are talking about the save-the-whales Star Trek. That was my all time favorite Star Trek. It showed that Kirk actually had a humorous side.
Catherine Hicks looked pretty good in that movie too!
That's the one. LOVED the way Spock handled things. He should have gone out for school car. Heh.
It was just so good to finally see the "crew" in present-day surroundings!
I have the tape, and will dig it out and watch it tomorrow night!
Definitely one of the better ones. Give my regards to Catherine Hicks too. :)
Subway Etiquette is an oxymoron
LMAO....wish I had thought of that first!! :-)
Kick his ass and steal his boom box - that's NYC etiquette.
depends on what kind of jam he / her is playing !!
now if its some good jazz coltraine or miles davis let it rock !!
heat eat live live & enjoy !!
he he he he ....................lol !
No, but if the dancing is horrendous, it
CAN hence be considered rude to the tunes.
:)
Are we to assume one is skilled enough to dance while the train is accelerating, decelerating, and going around curves? If so, by all means! That's be a feat of skill worth seeing.
Breaking into song might be an easier option for people like myself who ain't so coordinated.
Mark
Ride the subway for 8 hours a day like most conductors, and you find it's "LAND legs" that you have trouble with. :)
Forget the dancing, how about the fact that it is rude and against subway regulations to play radios w/o headphones? -Nick
Yesterday, the receipt I got from the farecard machine still had the old slogan at the bottom, reading "The Future is Riding on Metro". I find that "Metro Opens Doors" is a pretty lousy slogan to begin with, especially for printing on things.
Today, on board Breda 3130 (I think, my notes are upstairs), a watch started beeping when we got to Bethesda. The operator opened the door, asked the passenger if they had slept enough, and asked me to vacate the railfan seat so she could sit there. It appeared they knew each other from off of the train. I did so, it wasn't like the train was really crowded. He closed up and as soon as the train started itself (ATO, remember), he kept the cab door open and chatted with her all the way to the next station, where she got off and I reassumed my position at the front. Now, I have seen WMATA operators chat with coworkers in the cab in the past, but the operator sits at the console and can take over the train in a timely manner from the computers if he has to. But while chatting with passengers for a long period of time, it is not possible. I have had operators open the door to say hello to me as the train leaves the station, but we don't converse at length while the train is in motion. If we do, it is when the train is stopped at the station and I get out and we talk through the window before the operator closes down.
You're making a big deal out of nothing. Granted, the operator has some monitoring to do, not to mentio look out the window for track jumpers etc. But the operator has less to do on that train than I would driving a car - and there's nothing wrong with my talking to a front-seat passenger.
Find something else to worry about.
I was just saying and I am well aware of the situation. I just thought it was interesting, especially in the wake of the CTA derailments report. I did not feel usafe at any point during the whole trip.
Would it ever be possible to make the subways or commuter rail just like that JetBlue ad? A good place to give out blankets, Pillows , and blue potato chips would be on MNRR express trains. Subways could be made more enjoyable by having cute blonde subway attendants tuck sleeping patrons in, and give boombox people headphones. Is this a pipe dream? Does anyone else have this pipe dream? What do you think about its feasablility?
All thoughts welcome!
"Ummm ... Mr. Conductor? My crackpipe seems to have gone out. Tiene phosphoro, por favor?" I know ... you're just testing to see if this thing's on. :)
How about commuter rail? Lowlives don't go there.
"Lowlifes" are as likely to ride commuter rail as they are the subway - they just dress more nicely and have a cigarette case for their cocaine.
Your comment was both ignorant and offensive.
Sorry. SorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorry!
Lowlifes are all over the place on the Oyster Bay branch!
... and lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Peace,
ANDEE
Certain LIRR trains have bar cars.
Most commuter trains are too crowded to afford a lot of space for that, and not enough people ride long enough to sit in a cafe car.
Ok, the system could work like this: If you get on a train ( MNRR express) and have a ticket to GCT, the C/R hands you a blanket, pillow, and a bottle of orange Juice during the AM rush.
And how expensive should your ticket be?
3 dollar surcharge.
For that? You know how much it would cost to clean the blankets, pillows, and to provide all the juice?
Ok, so this wouldn't work out. Oh well, at least it was a cool commercial.
If the subway was subsidized as much as PATH, it would be free.
I thought the LIRR did away with bar cars.
Peace,
ANDEE
The BMT tried with its Bluebird - mohair upholstered seats and mirrors -
lol !!
yea rock baby !!
Would it ever be possible to make the subways or commuter rail just like that JetBlue ad? A good place to give out blankets, Pillows , and blue potato chips would be on MNRR express trains. Subways could be made more enjoyable by having cute blonde subway attendants tuck sleeping patrons in, and give boombox people headphones.
Every one of JetBlue's aircraft has a name with "Blue" in it, e.g. Blue Velvet, Love is Blue, etc. It hasn't been too hard to come up with these names because B6 only has about 30 Airbuses (Airbii?) in its fleet. Now, if you wanted to follow the theme and give cutesy names to every subway car, you'd need 6,000+ names!
Names could work on commuter trains, since there's fewer of them.
Ah hell no, I will never ride Jetblue, damn all Airtaxi airline! They need to go out and get some real airplanes, not some Eurotrash imitation of a real plane. Now if they were to dump the damn A320-somethings and go with some brand new Boeing 737-600/700/800s, then we could talk, but until then, I will never ever fly JetBlue.
I am sure they will miss my business and eventually start negotiations with Boeing!
BTW: Flyerlover, several Metra engines in chicago are named for important people from Illinois , and Towns that Metra serves.
Aren't some PATH cars named for towns in north Jersey?
Mark
Aren't some PATH cars named for towns in north Jersey?
Correct. I also believe that a few are named after towns in Rockland and Orange counties of New York State, as commuters from those places use PATH from Hoboken.
That commercial is laughable.
The ad is just propaganda to illustrate that subway and rail transit is not up to par with Jetblue's standard. Damn air bastards...
This went down a long whiles ago, but I don't recall ever seeing it posted about here.
http://www.complacent.org/thought/blue_frame.html
(this post was partially inspired by the 'etiquette' thread - while the signs say you can't play a radio in the subday, they don't say much about marching bands...)
Are you allow to BBQ on the subway, or only out in the open? It does not state anywhere.
That would be good. Save time spent on dinner eating on the ride home... maybe they oughta make a few 'bar cars' out of them old redbirds like what CDOT has got going on the new haven line?
Great. That means Heypaul will bring out his gas grill.:)
I was talking with some friends of mine who were in town over the weekend, and they were telling me about how Septa is installing a cab signalling system in the streetcar subway. There are still a few things I don't understand though:
- Why are they installing it in the first place? I don't recall ever hearing about any deficiencies with the present signalling system inuse.
- Who is paying for it? And why, given that it doesn't appear to be a matter of necessity.
- What sort of speed and stop enforcement will there be? Also, what kind of display will be presented to the driver on the streetcar's control console? Additionally, how will it integrate with the streetcar's existing systems and how will transitions from street running to cab signalled tunnel be made?
- Will the PCCs being rebuilt for the Gerrard Ave. line have the necessary equipment installed so that any streetcar can be used on any line?
Any other technical information on how the whole thing will work would also be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Robert A. King
Rob,
Here are some of what you are looking for:
- Why are they installing it in the first place? I don't recall ever hearing about any deficiencies with the present signalling system in use.
The system is being installed to replace the current system, which basically dates from the forties. It will be a "floating block" system.
- Who is paying for it? And why, given that it doesn't appear to be a matter of necessity.
It's a settlement for the problems with AdTranz with the M4's. Cost is in the $23M area.
- What sort of speed and stop enforcement will there be? Also, what kind of display will be presented to the driver on the streetcar's control console? Additionally, how will it integrate
with the streetcar's existing systems and how will transitions from street running to cab signalled tunnel be made?
Not sure. There may be info available from SEPTA. It will only function in the subway, street running will be good old fashioned streetcar.
- Will the PCCs being rebuilt for the Gerrard Ave. line have the necessary equipment installed so that any streetcar can be used on any line?
Don't think so, but that may change. Also unknown is whether the "historic" PCC's and 8534 will be equipped with the system. One would think they would be, but we are speaking about SEPTA.
Note: Spelling of the 15 Line's street is Girard, not like in Toronto.
The rebuilt PCC's will probably be dedicated to Girard Ave (route 15), but at least one proposal was suggested to rebuild more than the 18 needed to hold down the 15 line. If another 6 could be included in the program, the thought was that these would offer some spares to be used in subway-surface service especially since the car requirements are so tight now and just about anything that can be placed in service is there in the peak hour.
Additionally, the 15's cars will be 'temporarily' housed at Callowhill (until the replacement West Phila facility is sited and built). There will be space for a handful of K cars for route 10 service, which will permit better service on 10 and a greatly reduced pull-in/pull-out (since the cars now must come in/return to Elmwood, although they frequently do this as 36's so they are providing some service). Thus the 'mixed' fleet of K's and PCC's at Callowhill would enable some PCC's to provide 10 service if needed.
And Im sorry if this bothers anyone. I just want to get this right
Im just anal about this stuff. It comes out on the Preview so I guess its fine.
Anthony
IT WORKED!!!
but what is the QX doin there
The (don't call it QX) was probably headed for layup at Coney Island.
No it was in service.
Probably extended to cover a gap in Q circle service.
Photo was taken 7.3.02. at 6:31 PM
The NEW map is different from the current map:
1, the new map has the 1993-1998 route descriptions, based on the time of day, although in the current place
2, airports are yellow, and have a plane symbol on them
3, land is darker
4, water colored like 1979-1986 maps
5, new font saying the boroughs
will this come with stripmaps on the back??????????
and where did you see this new map?
I saw one this AM on a D train.
Peace,
ANDEE
1, the new map has the 1993-1998 route descriptions, based on the time of day, although in the current place
You mean in chart form, correct? If so, good. That way is much easier to quickly glance to see what lines operate at a particular time. Better than what they had in 1999 and 2001, the last times I was up there, where you had to read each line description individually.
Yeah, it was a lot more woody and hard to follow as well. I'm glad they went back to the table format.
I just saw it myself, on the D line today, excellent map, also if you really paid attention, at the cloest point where the 2/5 lines and 6 are, they really show that they are within walking distance, with the old fashioned design mixed in with the new map look, its a very, informative map. I cant wait to get my hands on 1
That's awesome! I can't wait to come into the city and get one...or two or three... :)
--Brian
I saw the new map today on a R142#5 train. There is a mistake on the map. It shows the 2 being a 24/7 express in Manhattan.
The map doesn't reflect late night service patterns -- hasn't for at least ten years.
Or do you mean the service guide doesn't mention that it runs local at night? Whoops.
Yes, I was talking about the colorful service guide. It states that the 2 is 24/7 express in the city.
I read this story some time ago and I wanted to share it with everyone. Okay, this took place somewhere in the 1950s in Pennsylvania during a heavy snowstorm. After a train of empty coal cars kerclack kerclacked through town on the Harrisburg main line, a lone GG-1 with a string of coaches rolled silenty to a stop in front of the station. (can't recall the name) The engineer and the conductor got out and they were scratching their heads. The coaches have power, the blowers were working, but she just will not go. So the coductor went inside the station to call the tower, at which time the signal blinked red.
In an attempt to get the stricken locomotive moving, the engineer reached for a pole underneath the GG-1 and nudged the second pantograph up to contact the overhead catenary. Meanwhile, the conductor came back and reported that the same thing was happening to GG-1s everywhere. Then the signal suddenly blinked yellow. The tower did that in case the GG-1 gave up on being a mule, reported the conductor. After waiting a few minutes, the engineer asked if he should try it again. The conductor, half amused, said highball! So the engineer moved the 22 notch controller a few increments then yelled back "hey, she wants to move". The conductor climbed aboard, the GG-1 sprang to life and off they went.
Later, the gravity of the problem came to light. The very fine snow had somehow gotten into the air intakes and filtered down to the traction motors, causing a short circuit. The time that the train spent in the station allowed the water to evaporate, allowing the motors to take power. But the GG-1 fleet required major repairs including modification to the intake grills. I thought it was an interesting story.
Interesting indeed.
signal...red...???
PRR used position signals no color AFAIK
signal...red...??? PRR used position signals no color AFAIK
Might have meant that it was indicating 'stop and stay', which people sometimes call 'red'. Or, it was an indication someone saw on the power board. IIRC, red was a short/popped breaker, and some types will try to close after the short clears...
Starting in the mid 50's, the PRR replaced the typical amber A-A-A indication with a R---R indication for home signals. It was for added umph at interlockings.
NY1 has the story..
MTA people saved a lot of lives. Bus drivers pulled people out of the area. Trains took people out of Manhattan. Work crews helped attack the mess at "Ground Zero."
I'm glad they've prepared this film. I hope a lot of people get to see it.
Is there any hope of seeing this documentary outside of the city? I'd much rather watch that than most of the so-called "victim specials" the networks are planning for next Wednesday ...
Woah...I wonder if my friend who works in the Amex building was on that particular bus. She was arriving to an early morning meeting when the first plane hit, and then was outside across the street when the second plane went in. An off-duty bus took her and several co-workers out of the area. -Nick
A man riding along the ROW in Norwood Mass was thrown from his dirtbike and went under the commuter rail train. The person survived and was flown by med evac helio to the Boston City Hospital.
Stupid Human Trick, No. 234,589
I think you're missing a few zeroes on the end of that number
The headline should be "MBTA Train Hits Tresspasser"
But what would be new? MBTA trains hits trespassers all the time. The novelty value is in the fact that the trespasser was traspassing on his/her bike, rather than other implements such as shoes, bungee ropes, or horse.
It would show who is at fault, the tresspasser.
(see Operation Lifesaver)
I know I drive readers crazy with conflicting info....all has been dependent upon Bombardiers efforts to provide working R142 trainsets....and I can say firsthand that the yard has been buzzing with modifications....but we were told today that we must keep the Redbirds flying on the #5 so you foamers still have a chance to ride em in Manhattan. Weeks heavy lift barge is gone once again from 207th and the reefing is once again suspended.
Yay! Thank you!
--Brian
Gotta be kidding! Redbirds we're getting are wrecks...I do not want any part of inspection procedures because everything is so scrutinized down to the last cleaning of door closer mechanisms...I would rather walk the seperated ten car trainset ten times and pick up every 'troubles' to repair for the whole day and collapse upon the floor before I get called in to fix one stupid thing I missed during inspection. Fluoresent bulbs, inverter balasts, door rubbers, portion pins, J14 brake valves, carbody hoses, brake slack adjusters,
HVAC, glass windows and TA maps, car emergency valves, stuck brake cylinders.......anything to keep me busy but the inspection repairs of trainsets destined for 'Neptunes Fleet.' CI Peter
Ya' Gotta Believe!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Hope anyone doesn't fall out of those big, gaping holes!
Thank God! Stop Redbird cruelty. Save the Redbirds!!!!
There was an el on Third Avenue?
j/k
Anyway, according to this map, the Third Avenue el used only one track to get through 129th Street in BOTH directions?
Sure looks that way, doesn't it?
But that can't be right. I've got a map somewhere which should clear that up, but it's kind of late to try hunting for it. If noone else answers first, I'll find it tomorrow and post an answer.
Paul,
When you do have time to look for it, please let me know and I'll correct it as soon as I can.
Thanks,
Michael Calcagno
Hi Mike,
The below is the last layout through the station. I derrived this from the 1954 feeder diagram of the station.
Far as I can tell, the earlier layour (when 129 was still used as a station) had Track A as the northbound thru track, and Track 2 next to it was connected east of the station by a manual (non-tower-controlled) switch.
The red track(s) are upper level and ran above rather than next to the station.
So in the later years northbound trains did not stop at 129th?
That's one to ask Joe Frank. By the map it sure doesn't look like it.
Ihave the maps from the ERA too, and there is a missing crossover from the third track (from the top of 129th Street station).
There is a small error in that map. The third station track
from the top under the words 129St Terminal had an additional
crossover to the second track from the top.
Can you post or email me on what the T/O job is like and what's it like being a T/O? You posted it before but i lost the info. Any info would greatly be appreciated.
The one thing I would like is to be rated as T/O and retain my position as Car Inspector. I could inpect my trainsets, do repairs and take em out for test runs. All I can do now is bump the cars under supervision in the shop.
When you receive acceptance as a T/O, you go to school...PS 248 in Coney Island. You learn from class instruction, you get moving experience in the yards, you go on school cars on the routes for 'hands on' and eventually you get your first assignment (pick.)
Once you're in the system, you are at the bottom of the seniority list and your choices for hours/days/shifts/days off are pretty stinky. New T/Os are garuanteed a full week but you have to love the work...shifts and locations will change as you fill in for absent/vacationing T/Os. The training can last six months.
Hope I got this right.....T/Os will bust my chops! There are less than twelve RCIs/CIs qualified as T/Os. CI Peter
Just wanted to put my two cents in.
Being a T/O sucks at first. You start out on the extra list. I never know where I'll be from day to day.
One day I'm on the 4, next day I'm on the "board", which means I'll go to a location and wait for someone to call in sick, and I'll then take that job for the day. I can't begin to tell you how much I hate the 4 line. On average, you work 9 1/2 hours, and the food at the terminals sucks. To make things worse, everything on the 4 is three trips. And if you start late enough, the last trip is to New Lots, local!
One day I'll start work at 2pm and finish at 10, and the next day I'll start at 5 and finish at 2am. And if I'm on the 4 line, I'll start at 3 and finish at 1am because track gangs and GO's will cause delays on my last trip.
I live in Queens, and they put me in the A division and I hate it with a passion. But when all is said and done, I make good money, have great job security, work with good people, and will one day transfer to the B division so I'll be closer to home.
But who knows, maybe I'll get more work out of New Lots and Main St when things go back to normal next pick.
The page you want is here http://home.att.net/~alabianca/Welcome.html
A couple of points. PM actually goes to 1959, and Midnights begins 2000. But not that many jobs begin between 1930 and 2230.
He should also point out that when you first pick, if you are close to the bottom, you may be left with OPTO VR. This seems to be the last stuff picked now. I chose it over a Queens RDO relief job that included the G on Sunday. I had to go OPTO anyway, at least I won't have the G every week. (Now that I've been qualified, they gave it to me this past Mon.; still extra extra, anyway)
You shouls describe the bidding process, because I had ni idea how it worked. Also, this is even less orderly than extra extra. They kept me AM from the beginnig, and moved me from TW to SS right before Christmas (So I didn't have Christmas, but they left me with Sat./Sun), but now it definitely will change every week, because what i get is based on what I bid for, or what's left over if the 72 choices I get are all taken (it's a lot to go through all those jobs and screen out what i don't want, and place them all in order of preference. (Homework, ala school!) It paid off as I got stuff high on my list for the first 2 weeks, including the M OPTO with the 143's This Sun, on it's first day!) If there aren't enough jobs, you are extra.
> PM actually goes to 1959, and Midnights begins 2000
I don't think so!!!
The time between 2000 and 2200 is a grey area as far as the crew office goes. If it's a permanent pick job, then it'll be considered a PM pick job for PM crews. If it's a temporary job (600's or 900's), then the crew office normally assigns midnight crews to the job. Next time if you get a chance to view the assignment sheets, you could see a job on the payroll listed as 401, but on the supplement the same 401 crew would be known as 602.
I know but there are 600 jobs at 9PM they give to PM guys too, I have had them.
Midnight officially starts at 10pm, crew office games excepted.
Eric, I was trying to give them a little info - too much without the reality is just confusing
Reality indeed. I have found out what this job is like for myself.
I'm still on the extra list. I don't like it. Others love it and want to stay on it for as long as they can.
The job itself is great. It's the hours that get to you at first. Once I can pick a job. Things will get better.
Can you post or email me on what the T/O job is like and what's it like being a T/O? You posted it before but i lost the info. Any info would greatly be appreciated. Still waiting for the TA to call me.
Did you take a nice picture of the Triplexes in action on May 27, 2002? If so, we need your photo for use on the cover of our new video Triplex Special. Will pay you $25.00 for a non-exclusive license to use your photo, give you a photo credit on the cover, and send you a copy of the video. Please send jpg scans to us at valhallavideo@prodigy.net. If your photo is selected, we will send you a photo release, and later our check to you. Thanks to all who care to submit their pix for consideration.
I have a question to ask, could you/they please e mail me? Thank You.
Help me out here.
I believe it is the passageway that connects the "E-V" at Lexington Avenue with the "6" at 51st...
The context of the postings suggested it was the 23rd St Ely passageway between the E/V and the G. Citicorp has its big back office building there.
I oughtta know, I walk through it every morning. The only thing that irks me is that there is only one motorized walkway which leads to the 23rd St. - Ely Ave. station where you catch the "E" and the "V". I always thought there should be one in the opposite direction as well.
I think that walkway takes turns going both ways during the day. (No pun intended!)
It does indeed turn around sometime during the day...around 5 PM I was walking through there and it was heading to the G train.
Perhaps it's just me. Just seems whenever I'm down there, it's headed in the opposite direction of where I'm going.
If you are going in the reverse direction to peak travel, that would be true.
You mind me asking how that would work?
I've seen people on those things at airports just sitting there, leaning against the moving railing, just plodding along. What happens to these people when it turns? Do they just suddenly start going backward? Or is there somekind of warning/pause before the system reverses?
It would be a hell of a sight to see a bunch of one track minded commuters trying to run against the walkway as it changed!
They cordon off the entrance a few minutes before when they change the directions. They assume everyone would have gotten off it by the time they change it. They do this to escalators on deep level subway systems with an asymmetrical number of escalators.
What about a tag team? One guy stands at each end. As soon as the hapless passengers near the end, one guy changes the direction of the walkway. Then it gets reversed again. The passengers never get off...
:0)
See AEM-7's post.
Both locations can be called CitiCorp passageways.
The connection between Lexington Ave E/V to the 51th Street 6
and the Court Square G to 23rd/Ely E/V.
CityCorp contributed to both passageways to be built.
;| ) Sparky
It's the connecting tunnel between Court Square (G) and 23rd Street, nee Ely Avenue (E,V).
I'd have to agree. The transfer passageway from Lexington/3 Ave on the E & F to 51 St on the 6 doesn't go under the Citicorp building in Manhattan.
Yes, because the building that it comes near is the CitiGROUP Center.
At 30 Rockefeller Plaza we have the RCA Building, and blocking the view down 4th Avenue is the PanAm Building.
Qho owns the Pam Am building now? Do peolpe still go eat at the dining club at the top of thje Pam Am building?
PanAm (MetLife now) had a heliport on the roof, but now restaurant.
RCA (GE now) has (or had?) the Rainbow Room on top, the Chrysler Building had the Cloud Club, and 1 World Trade Center had Windows on the Worlld.
New movement afoot. STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
And for those of you with broadband (not available upstate except in HIGHLY limited areas in Joe Bruno's district) some music to go with this thread:
http://www.brianmay.com/mp3/lovetrain_hollyjohnson.mp3 (3.5 *MEGS!!!*)
For those expecting the O'Jays, here's the classic, but not MP3. Real Audio. Sorry ... one of the limits of dialup is waiting forever. Part of life in the "HIGH TECH VALLEY" Joe Bruno is trying to sell us. Fun trying to do BUSINESS on a dialup, but such is life in the "Podunk State." :)
http://www.artistdirect.com/cgi-bin/ramstream?file=~ddd-475124/0016923_0110_00_0002.ra
Do NOT ask me out on the 9/22 fantrip as I usually ride the first car and am already happily married!!
--Mark
Hey, I always ride in the first car and I'm single!:)
So do I, and so am I, except when I'm riding the "7". You can be rest assured you'll find me in the R-33 single-line cars :o)
Must be the axiflow fans, right?:)
Kinki! (oh yeah, on topic ... "shariyo") ... there. Moo. :)
How did you ever guess? :o)
Amen! I always thought the subway was a good pick-up place. Got a couple of phone numbers myself that way (back when I was single)...
Hey I'll drink to that concept. I prefer the first car anyway, not really because of the railfan window, but I just like the first car for some reason (actually what I really like is getting on somewhere in the middle and walking up to the first car - I love walking between the cars!)
Care to share some of your experiences with us?
:-)
One time, during medical school, I was waiting on the platform at 15th Street on the Market-Frankford line when I noticed the smell of some very nice perfume (not too strong and very pleasant). I turned slightly to see where it was coming from, and was greeted by a pleasant, attractive woman who asked me about something I was reading. It turned out she was a first year med student, ex-engineer, (I was a third year student). We started talking, and she gave me her phone number before she got off the train. We went on to be friends, and when she graduated, I returned to Philly for the "hooding" ceremony. She is now somewhere in the South (lost track of her) finishing up training as a neuro-ophthalmologist (yes there is such an animal - very highly specialized). A classy lady.
Well, opthamology has to do with the eyes, so she must he a highly-specialized eye physician.
Her specialty is the optic nerve and the nerves controlling the muscles which move the eye.
Sanchez came up to me yesterday at WTC as I was charging up my E. He handed me his card and was asking me what I thought of it. While this "singles car" thing sounded vaguely familiar (probably something someone mentioned here; I didn't take it seriously), I didn't know anything about it or what to say.
Well hopefully I'll meet some mystical ladies while riding the first car.
At the suggestion and in honor of Sea Beach Fred, I have changed my handle from R16 Lover to Sea Beach R16 Lover.
Slow Beach? Like they say....love is blind.
Like the Brighton Line today is any better..............
The R68's can't get out of their own way, and the slants don't belong on the express and don't get up the same speed as the old Brightliners did.
Which was faster to DeKalb in the old days - the Sea Beach or Brighton from Coney Island? I'd bet it was the Sea Beach.
I must respectfully disagree about the slants on the diamond Q. They hold their own on the express run. You should have seen us last fall on a Manhattan-bound diamond Q. It was a blast! The T/O kept his cab door open all the way and shot the breeze with us, and did a super job. We dusted a D train or two along the way and yelled "HI!!!!! BYE!!!!!", waving to the passengers. Later, as we sped along Broadway, the T/O was going to coast through a jog in the n/b express track before Union Square. We said, "Aw, go for it!", and he did. Then as we approached 28th St., I said "28th St. dead ahead!" As we ripped past, it was like being on an N train all those years ago. You had to be there.
But what about the faster run to DeKalb - Sea Beach or Brighton?
I was only busting on the slants - they hold their own. I took a ride last month. I would still love to see the R32's.
Back in the good ol' days, the Brightliners (R32s) really ripped on the N, Q, and T. Back then (pre-GOH), you could tell how relatively fast they were going because they emitted a characteristic whisper (as opposed to the R1/9s, for example, which emitted a characteristic growl). The higher the pitch of the whisper, the faster. The Sea Beach (notice I refer to it here as Sea Beach, and not Slow Beach as it is today) and West End achieved a high pitch under 4th Av. between Pacific and 36th. The Brighton did that on every stretch between 7th Av. and Sheepshead Bay. But the highest pitch of all (and thus fastest speed) was attained on the downhill raceway past Av. H going into Newkirk. Now that was a ride!
Those shiny new R-32s certainly did zip along 4th Ave. on that memorable day in July of 1965. They even crossed the bridge at a good clip.
Interesting combination of line/rolling stock. I can only recall a short period from 1976-77 when that car ran regularly on that line.
what was it before?[pardon me for askin' fella]
Click "First in Thread", above the title.
Maybe I should change my handle to R-10 Fan.:) I passed on Mr. R-10 out of respect for William Padron.
I'm thinking of upgrading my handle to Chris R42...lol
I could change my name to American R16.
Why not American Car & Foundry R16?
LOL
I'm thinking of upgrading my handle to Chris R42...lol
Well, if you are going in order of BMT/IND sized cars you skipped R40....lol (I think you were R16 before R27-30.)
Well, Wayne took care of that one. After all, he's Mr. Slant R-40
Wayne has the status of Mr. slant R40, and Tony has the 40M's all to himself. Besides, I like the R42 more than the R40.
lol. I really should get a more "subway" type handle. I originally started posting on the LIRR Forum as "GP38" (The GP38-2's are some of the engines that used to run on the LIRR), so I wanted to keep things consistant. It's funny because I hardly ever post on the LIRR forum anymore (even though I occasionally read it), and the GP38's don't run on the LIRR anymore (without the NYA).
Don't, I have a railroad type handle and it works well. There are too many subway cars in here.
Lol, Well I was thinking of just adding "Chris" or something to it like "GP38 Chris" (as that's my real name), but I guess it doesn't really matter.
Your name is GP38 Chris? Railfan parents, I guess.
lol. You know what I mean..... Hey that would be more cruel than naming a child "Moon-unit" or something.....
I was thinking of getting a more subway-related handle, but:
- if I called myself VAL208, people would think I was a girl
- I don't know how to change my handle anyway
Maybe if I did change it I could use the name of my favourite DMU - the Class 168 Clubman.
How about Chris R-42, then?:)
It's for my "love" of my favorite line - the Sea Beach, combined with my favorite rolling stock - the R16.
Do R-16's make good lovers? lol
speaking of which, what happened to sea beach fred after all?
what happened to Sea beach fred?
That's a different poster. "Sea Beach R16 Lover" used to be just "R16 Lover".
With al the talk of the iminent reopening of the 1/9 line to South Ferry, I have a question. Has the area under WTC been covered over or will the trains see daylight for tha short stretch?
Peace,
ANDEE
The new "tunnel" even though goes "above ground" through the WTC site, will look like any other subway tunnel from the inside of the tunnel. The tunnel is enclosed and ready to have what ever is to be built there to be built around it. I guess it is best that way, so that they won't have to disrupt subway service when they begin construction on the site, similar to the way the original tunnel had trains running through it during the construction of the WTC in the 70's.
You can get a fairly good view of the outside of the tunnel (as well as the rest of the WTC site) by going to the current viewing area, which is on Liberty Street west of Church Street, just outside the connecting walkway to the WFC.
I wish they hadn't rebuilt the tunnel, because I hope the new station won't mimic the original design of narrow platforms and cramped, disconnected mezzanines and entrance stairwells, but rather a modern spacious design with open sightlines like the underground stations in DC, LA, or at Roosevelt Island. In such a case, they'd have to disrupt service to remove the tunnel that they've rebuilt, reducing the likelihood of it ever happening. But, oh well.
Personally, I would have thought it would be cool if they made it a glass tunnel. Imagine that!!
Yeah, it would have been nice for about 2 days. Then the scratchiti vandals would have started showing up and that would be that.
Of course, if it were real glass, it would fall prey to sledgehammers.
I think all of that are irrelevant issues. Just have some cameras up there.
Story about inaccurate signs in stations.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow. No subway cars eating children, bursting into flames between stops or whacking walls. I tell ya, it's all coming apart like a cheap suit if that's all they have to whine about. :)
Apparently the conductors are still being dragged into another dimension, because according to the article there's nobody to ask for help. It's a wonder those doors ever get closed.
Heh. OPTO everywhere ... then again, an advocacy group with nothing to complain about makes for a bad day. I guess I'm missing something from the old "power to the people" days. If there's people who are confused and an organization formed to DO something about it, how about stationing some volunteers with "ask me" badges on the platforms to assist the confused? Nah. That'd be involvement. Much easier to snipe from the sidelines and say, "No my yob man."
I should clarify, the article doesn't say there's nobody to help you, it just implies it by ignoring the topic altogether.
It is good that this is a major item of concern in the subway, rather than more serious things.
On the other hand, the "little" things like accurate signs, escalators and elevators that work, etc., are important too. Not everyone is a vigorously healthy regular commuter who knows the subway perfectly. NYCT needs to devote a little management attention to these lesser items too.
Of course ... but it sure isn't a "banner item for consumer affairs" to a magnitude of bodies stacked like cordwood. And ya know what? Most tourists have enough sense to stop at the concierge's desk at the hotel, obtain a map with pencil lines on it that say "go here, look for this, then go here and voila" ...
The schleps are on their own. :)
True. How many stations in Queens still have neighborhood maps showing the B and Q trains terminating at 21 Street-Queensbridge?
Think that's bad? The neighborhood map at the broadway station (which they removed a couple of weeks ago) still had the R going to ditmars and the N on queens boulevard!
Hey, do you really want to make it too easy to get around? How else do you distinguish a tourist from the rest of us?
Tourists ask questions when they get lost or don't know what's going on. NYers will just wander around aimlessly.
Same map at 63rd drive!
I remember going to Grand Army Plaza last year or so, and noticing that the neighborhood map showed the JFK Express, among other things.
What I would appreciate is accurate and easier-to-understand exit signage. I dislike signs like "Use exit at end of platform", because it's ambiguous which end they're talking about. Also, it's sometimes impossible to know when part-time exits are closed until you get to them and find them closed. I know some of the platform signs directing you to part-time exits display the days and hours they are open-- all such signs should have this.
Before the horrible events of 359 days ago, there was a sign pointing to the south end of both platforms at Cortlandt Street on the N/R that said something like "Exit to Dey Street, open 6AM-8PM".
The wording would imply this exit was open seven days a week during the hours indicated. However, it was closed on weekends, even though there was nothing on the sign that said M-F. Many people would walk to that end of the platform, only to have to turn back to the full-time entrance at the north end. You can't tell the exit is closed until you're right on top of it.
The Stations Department asserted that it's 'implied common knowledge' and 'obvious' that the phrasing on the sign means the exit is closed on weekends. Doesn't seem very obvious to me- or the many tourists who frequented the area. When I suggested that a Monday through Friday be added to the sign, the person to whom I spoke said I was nitpicking and getting hung up with semantics.
But if someone- especially a tourist- were to be attacked by a mugger hanging out by the closed exit because they were drawn to it by an misleading and incomplete sign, it would be all over the news. Bloomberg and Kelly would have to hold news conferences, there'd be articles about New York reverting to its former dangerous self, etc.
That's an example of an inaccurate sign posing a potential danger.
Speaking of ambiguous exit signs, I've noticed some rehabbed stations have standard rectangular illuminated "EXIT" signs- the same kind you see in stores, theatres and schools- hanging from platform or mezzanine ceilings. But there are no directional arrows or text accompanying these signs! Is the exit in front of you or behind you? If so, how far? What street does it lead you to? Do you have to move a certain tile in the platform to reveal a hidden stairway? Or is there a secret light fixture you have to move to expose another hidden stairway? The standard white-on-orange exit signs with directional arrows have always done the job just fine, thank you.
>>>>...the person to whom I spoke said I was nitpicking and getting hung up with semantics. <<<
Sounds like your typical TA bureaucratic asshole.
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably wasn't the droid's fault. After all, if conductors are issued scripts that they're not permitted to improvise upon, what are the chances that phone droids would be permitted to vary from THEIR script? :)
I smell a TA study group coming on if someone were to call TA wigdom or perhaps the governor's office. Election years tend to make study groups schedule a meeting room for THIS week if the "second floor" or "upstairs" is involved.
Bottom line, if you want service, you're not going to find it in the numbers published in the phone book. Grade 6's have little leeway if an issue isn't on the script. But still, in the greater scheme of things, the issues ARE kinda nitpicky. And TOURISTS tend to ASK questions. It's the locals who would spend the night in an Iron Maiden (and some rockers but that's a different concert) ...
And they should be kept up-to-date! The 16th Street exit from the 14th Street station on the F/V used to be open on Sundays, but it isn't anymore -- not that you can tell from the signs, which haven't been changed. (This is as of this past February, when I was stung. Something may have changed since, either the signage or the hours.)
I remeber at Union Turnpike at the Interboro Pkwy entrance that the map by the booth indicated the permanently closed and soon to be demolished Metropolitan Ave and Queens Blvd stations on the J. And the entrance sign on the Southbound Parkway side advertized exactly like this:
Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens Station
E F G N
Heh, I guess someone didn't like the "Mott Avenue" sign at 149th and the Grand Concourse :)
--Mark
[yawn]
If this is their biggest complaint, then things are going good. I'm surprised they didn't whine that "The F train doesn't terminate at Ave. X!"
So they're going back to yellow globes? IINM they used to indicate an entrance without a token booth, then they did away with yellow and those entrances were covered under red globes (limited hours/exit only/no booth).
Why did they get rid of the yellow globes in the first place?
People thought it was a taxi stand ;-)
I'm glad they bring up the idea. The red globe means too much and the yellow globe would help simplify it.
It's ironic they did away with it since it was too confusing. Now Metrocard brings back the yellow globe! I'd like to see it happen.
I think they should make them look like flaming globes, Sigmund, like FLAMING GLOBES!
According to an ad in today's Philly Metro...if you buy a home near transit you can quality for SMART COMMUTE, a special mortgage program offered by Citizen's Bank.
As part of a program to encourage transit use and support neighborhoods served by transit, Citizens is offering a "location-efficent" mortgage for homes with easy access to several public transit options.
I tried to look up some info on-line at Citizensbank.com...but found none, but the ad in the paper says the offer is avaialable throughout Southeastern PA........
you can see the ad for yourself in the philly edition of metro at metropoint.com
I appreciate it.
Yes, I have it on good authority that they will be bringing in old "almond joys" from SEPTA to run on the new "4Q" line.
Peace,
ANDEE
And installing "flexible rail" which will stretch as the 5.5 foot Penn standard gauge SEPTA trucks pass over them, then snap back to normal configuration for other MTA subway cars.
Yes, I have it on good authority that they will be bringing in old "almond joys" from SEPTA to run on the new "4Q" line.
No, it's the modified "4Q2" line.
you guys are sick ,twisted,andreallymeannnn[LOL]!!! ''4Q... Thats terrible...[lol]
lol,
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey leave them alone, they're having fun. Besides their more up on
whom the tomfoolers who post on this board are. By the responses,
I see we are dealing with a non incoherent poster of dribble.
Right on guys, and since it's that time of the year, as ANDEE
would say
SHALOM.
;| ) Sparky
>>>>....non incoherent....<<<
Isn't that an oxymoron? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
More like a double negative.
here we go again....
There will be a subway car assigned to the B division on 9/8. NYCT is not disclosing which car it will be due to security concerns, but there is a rumor that it will be either the new R-320 or an M-3.
What kind of security reasons? It gets annoying when it becomes the reason for everything. I was at Queensboro Plaza taking pictures the other day and was told to leave and told I wasn't allowed to take pictures up there.
Seriously, does anyone have it? I'd like it too!
Does the TSS have the right to take over your train and operate it or is this a courtesy you give him? (I'm talking when you haven't violated a rule).
Does a TSS have to be qualified for the road, does he, like in the air force, have to log so many hours to remain current?
I ask because the TSS on this mornings Romeo ride needed to go back to school car...you don't need full service everytime you want to slow down ya know!! >G<
You don't have to give up your train to a TSS if he want to operate, it is a coutresy. They are all road qualifed. I was told to let them have the train so they can keep up there skills. Anyway why not give up the controlls, it give you time to rest, I always like getting them on my last trip. It was fun just sitting back and watching them operate knowing that I am going home soon.
Robert
i have seen it done several times. i was on the 7 train once with a motorman i know, and a T.S.S came on and asked if he could operate. of course my friend let him. it was nice to get paid to sit and ride the train and watch him operate the 7 from 111th to TIMES SQUARE. if i was a Motorman i would surrender my seat to any qualified T.S.S
Funny to see that on the TA people like it when TSS operate. When I used to work for a Commuter Railroad, the local union frowned upon TSS operating (because they can then bust strikes easier). Also, just like the original poster alluded, many TSS operated badly. I heard a story where a TSS got all excited when operating and blew a signal, so he called into the 'box hoping the signalman would cover up for him. He said something along the lines of how he's a TSS and isn't supposed to do stupid things like this. They did and nothing happened. Then apparently he bragged about this in the crew room, got tape recorded and got himself reassigned. He is now a platform cleaner at an intermediate station.
Where I came from, they aren't called TSS's but "traction inspectors".
There was one time when I was riding in the head end when a TSS came onboard. He spent a while talking to the regular driver and then sent him to the back to rest so he could talk to me and operate. I was in no position to judge whether he operated well but he seemed to know what he was doing, and there was no bad lurches or jerks or anything. In fact the motorman operated not as well as he did, in my opinion; the motorman was more abrupt with his stops and often braked sooner. Maybe that's why TSS's blow signals, because they are too confident about being able to stop in time...
I asked him about railhead conditions. He also seemed well versed in that.
AEM7
There shouldn't be a problem with a TSS operating a train, as long as the TSS is willing to accept responsibility in the event something goes wrong. Some T/O's will not let a TSS operate, but they are few and far between.
Back int he "motor instructor" daze, they'd be sitting there making you sit across from the cab LECTURING you on why you chewed. And yet, the relief from your left hand going numb was somehow a SACRIFICE and you somehow OWED them something for taking over. Amazing how many two shots cleared for them. I tell ya, I was willing to call a Jesuit if only one had shown UP. :)
Calling Jesuits is easy - ya just gotta know the number. They put it into my head the first day of High School, and I STILL know it.
>>>>>>>>Calling Jesuits is easy - ya just gotta know the number.
What's the area code for Jesuits? Is it in Long Island?
212. There's a large grouping at 84 St/ Park Ave as well as others near to almost every school with the word Fordham in it.
Yeah, but after Vatican II, they went to all digit dialing. :)
My High School years post-date Vatican II.
Et Cum Spiri 220 has been changed ... the NEW number is 327-220. :)
Yes, they are supposed to practice operating to maintain their skills.
What does TSS stand for? And what are there duty's?
Transit Secret Service
Train Service Supervisor
They oversee T/O's and C/R's.
What does C/R stand for?
Conducting Rats???
Conductor Reincarnate???
AEM7
"C/R" Means "Conductor, revenue" as opposed to "C/C" which means "Conductor, copper" ... moo. :)
I thought C/R was an acronym for AME....carrier reduction. 1 KW of RF with a pilot carier of 1 watt and your headphones blast a whistle on frequency that cleans your aural canals out.
Nyuck nyuck nyuck....three stooges supervisors??? Practicing T/O is like firearms practice: well, you load the magazine, drop an extra cartridge in here, operate the safety, pull back the slide and ooops...you commited fatal BIE. Everyone engaged in moving trainsets
should be examined once a year or more...just like drivers should be examined regularly by motor vehicles. Sorry for any inconvienence but whether it is a firearm, a motor vehicle or a trainset...any mechanical device that can do harm to others carries responsibility. Answer to Rons post......Transit System Supervisors. CI Peter is OnTheJuice
Story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/05/nyregion/05REBU.html
The article says that the 1 and 9 will "bypass" Cortlandt Street. That's rather misleading, as of course the station no longer exists.
The worst part is that the 9 train will run at all. A tremdous waste of time and effort(but I guess not too much money).
I know. The 9 is so useles...
I just received the artical from the Times via email. INTERESTING stuff.with the rebuilding,did they place a station shell that could latter be used as the new Cortlandt st?
I don't know.
I doubt it. A potential station here will be integrated into the transit "hub" planned for underneath the WTC site. Since nobody knows what it will be like, the exact location of Cortland St's replacement is up in the air. It might not even be on Cortland St.
yeah,I kinda figured since the ''new hub'' would strech to the FULTON ST station,from B.P.C.,they would somehow place an new station somewhere in the center of the complex.Somewhat simular to the way the A LINE links all the lines together at Bway Nassau sts.
I suspect they'd at least build the platforms for a new station, but probably with no access.
Once they decide what is going to be built above, it would seem easier to then just build access to the platforms.
If they just have tunnel, then I'd think they'd have to take the tracks out of service for quite some time once they decide to build the station.
CG
If they just have tunnel, then I'd think they'd have to take the tracks out of service for quite some time once they decide to build the station.
Was the 59th St / lex Ave express station built while Lex Avenue expreses were still in service?
--Mark
One of the links from this site shows some literature from the opening of the express station which indicates that construction of the station took 3 years and that there was no disruption to IRT local or BMT service.
By it's omission it would seem that express service was disrupted. Whether it was a long term outage or just a nights/weekends thing isn't clear.
CG
I remember passing through the station on an express in Fall, 1962. Since I was unaware of its construction and not familiar with the IRT in general then (I was 11 years old), I was surprised to see it. I think we went through it at somewhat less than optimum speed.
According to another article that was linked here recently (10 days ago or so?) a shell is being constructed; a false wall will be constructed along the platform edge so that work can proceed without flaggers after service resumes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks.That would make the most sense.
I'm told that the "you must be in the first 5 cars to exit at South Ferry" signs have started reappearing in (1) trains. Nice to see those back out on the road - it's the only sign that service is returning you can find in the system, since the 1/2/3/9 aren't getting "MORE CHANGES" posters of their own.
Please express your opinion on this idea
E train to operate from 179th Street to World Trade Center at all times
F train to operate from Jamaica Center to Brooklyn at all times and making express stops between 21st Street/Queensbridge and Jamica/Van Wyck only
V train to be extended from Continental Ave to 179th Street weekdays 6AM to 7PM (this will require 2 additonal trains only)
Advantages
1-Hillside Ave passengers from Van Wyck to 179th Street will have 1 8th Ave Express service and 1 6th Ave Local service weekdays
2-Current E line passengers who board at Jamaica Center and Stuphin Blvd/Archer Ave and go downtown can use the J/Z Line and now have a 6th Ave Midtown service
Disadvantages
1-75th Ave and Van Wyck passengers will lose access to Archer Avenue
2-Current F line passengers from Hillside Ave will have to switch for 6th Ave service and currrent E line passengers from Archer Ave will have to switch for 8th Ave service
PLEASE NOTE: The E will make all stops between 179th Street and Continental Ave at all time
Your comments please
Thank You
Interesting post.
"75th Ave and Van Wyck passengers will lose access to Archer Avenue "
They don't have it now. Only the F train stops there.
Ron,
You can travel to/from Archer Ave from Van Wyck and 75th Avenue evenings,late night and weekends when the E stops at these stations
Thank You
But not during the week or at rush hour, when most people want to ride.
My opinion is the "E" should be express all the time. By that I mean skip Van Wyck Blvd. and 75th Ave at all times. It all balances out, since the "F" serves those stations anyway, and the "E" has to make an additional stop at Jamaica Van Wyck which the "F" does not. Just my two cents...
Jamaica-Van Wyck is on a different route and does not cater to the people headed for Hillside Av stations. Off-hours, skipping it doesn't save a lot of time, since the E train has to switch on/off the local track anyway, and gives local riders more service. At rush hours and during the weekday, the F runs more frequrently, so the E can skip it.
During early mornings, evenings, nights and weekends, the (E) stops at Van Wyck Blvd. and 75th Ave.
At any rate, I like having the (F) at 179th. I live in Oakland Gardens, Queens and work on 5th Ave, so it does pretty much what I need it to. I suspect it is probbably about the best arrangement too, since