I remember reading somewhere here that they ran a DD train (I'm assuming it was a 6th Av local) for a short while...
If that's true, what was the story?
Perfect!!!
Thank you very much, I knew I wasn't crazy.....:)
Hey Mr. J-Train, come up to Shoreline Trolley Museum and climb aboard our R-9 # 1689. If you behave yourself we may let you "foam" and change the signs to read DD if the BMTman doesn't beat you to it.
Personally I prefer AA.
The priority on 1689, since it's an original IND piece and routing is mine.
If I get their first, it becomes a "GG".
There are no BMT routings except the Culvers on that car.
;-) Sparky
The last time both sides of the bridge were open, which side did most people prefer (assuming it didn't matter back home). I think that the TA thought it was 6th Avenue, but Broadway seems to pass more important locations, except for Rockefeller Center, and it has better transfers.
I think service was a little less screwed up when the bridge was closed to Broadway trains. Sure you lost the Broadway express, but I feel the 6th Ave connection is the more important one.
Is it more important because it is more important, or is it more important only because there is no other way to get to 6th from DeKalb (but from Broadway there's always the tunnel)?
Is it more important because it is more important, or is it more important only because there is no other way to get to 6th from DeKalb (but from Broadway there's always the tunnel)?
6th Ave is more important to go over the bridge beacuse Broadway still leads to DeKalb from the tunnel, so it doesn't disrupt service quite as much. Personally (so it's only my opinion) I feel Broadway is the more important service though, but it's not quite as much of a problem when service doesn't go over the bridge. It may slow it down a bit, but service is not as screwed up as it is when the bridge is closed to 6th Ave service.
So Broadway is the more important service, but 6th Ave is more important to go over the bridge. (so did I confuse everyone now?)
I prefered the Broadway Line. But then I was always partial to the BMT. I worked at 34th Street and lived in Brooklyn near enough to DeKalb that I could walk from DeKalb or Pacific Stree. Going to Manhattan, I could always take whatever train came in first, butgoing to Brookly, I had to stand on one platform or the other, and I always stood on the BMT platform.
Elias
While I'm on a question kick...
When did the QB stop running?
Last I remember seeing it was in about 1984....
Did the line go out of service when MTA went to all single letters?
QB did not go out of service, QB simply became the Q when MTA decided to go for all single letters.
Ah, right.....I should have realized that, I just didn't think before I asked :)
Thanks, Mike the Mailman!
I have a question. Which was the first train to not have flickering lights over third rail gaps prior to the GOH. And What was the first train to not have flickering lights while going over 3rd rail gaps. Answer would be appreciated.
Adam
I believe it was the R-44s.
Peace,
ANDEE
IIRC, the R-42s were the first to be wired to avoid the "flickering lights' effect, though I can't remember back in the early 70s what a train of R-42s and R-40Ms hooked up looked like when they went over a gap...
R40 to R46 came equipped with main light invertors. R10-R38 had 600 volt ceiling affixed main lighting, with the only difference being the R32A which had 600V advertising mounted light fixtures. Flickering or dark car lights applied to all of those cars whenever the main light reversors, ML1 or ML2 fuses malfunctioned and ballasts, resistors, invertors, bulbs, momentary and contactors failed. Trick question here: Which CAR post GOH was modified to avoid the flashing of car body lights after its associated fleet was GOHd without that modification?
Nope...the R-40 series came in with polarity reversers. Their main lights flickered going over gaps. The R-42s were the first with main lighting inverters.
I believe the individual car in question is 9336 or 9337, a single-unit R-33, which got the high-frequency AC lighting that the R-26 through (married pair) R-33 "Redbirds" got.
David
9336 sounds right, because I notice that car has acrylic covers over the flourescent lights, not the thick ribbed glass the cars originally came with.
Why were the thick ribbed glass covers replaced on the ML Redbirds? The old ones had class.
I rode 9336 this morning. I noticed the center row of lights are missing as well.
I was talking GE R30 there but I discounted the singles. You can have that point.
There's also an R-36 with the modification, and her mate doesn't have it.
Wonder if it was one of those carbarn shotgun weddings? :)
The R-40s were the last contract to have 600 Volt main light circuits, hence the last cars to have main lights that dropped out when the cars went over 3rd rail gaps.
R-42 - R-46 were delivered with inverters so the main lights were powered by batteries. R-62 and up plus all cars after GOH (except the R-33/R-36 WF cars) were built with inverter ballasts rather than an inverter card.
I just heard from Irwin (chicagomotorman) that our friend Pete Vesic passed away on Saturday. For those who were on the Chicago Field Trip last year, Pete was the guy who took us out on the CTA 1-50 series singles and gave us each some time at the controller. He was incredibly devoted to his volunteer work at IRM, and will be sorely missed.
On a more personal note, Pete was also the guy who I worked most closely with at IRM when I was volunteering there, and I considered him a friend. I'll really miss his dry wit, and his beloved CTA singles will miss him too. If only every other railcar at every other museum had such a dedicated guardian.
I feel like I should have something more profound to say here, but I can't seem to find the words.
So long, Pete.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I should have mentioned that he also leaves behind a wife and three kids. Please keep them in your prayers.
Donations to IRM in his memory would be greatly appreciated. IIRC, there's a specific fund set up for the CTA singles, in addition to the museum's general fund. Frank Hicks probably knows more about that stuff than I do, though. Here's the address:
Illinois Railway Museum
PO Box 427
Union, IL 60180
Maybe those of us who were on the Chicago Field Trip last year should chip in for something on behalf of the SubTalk community... I'm not sure exactly what, but it would be a nice gesture.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks for the sad news, David. I'll contribute to a SubTalk fund if one is established.
Bob
Definitely a sad day. Pete was only 47 years old, and was the last person you'd expect to have a heart attack. This hit a lot of people here at IRM pretty hard; he's been around for nearly 30 years.
I don't know that there's been any specific fund set up in Pete's memory at IRM, but a good way to memorialize him would be to contribute to cars 22, 30, 41, or 6461-6462. If I find out about a memorial fund at his funeral (tomorrow in Lombard), I'll post it. In the meantime, there are plans to drape car 41 with black bunting for the Trolley Parade on Fourth of July, but I don't know who's in charge of that or whether they'll have time to locate and arrange the bunting.
Frank Hicks
Thanks for the info, Frank.
One of my fondest memories about Pete, aside from the Chicago field trip, was from the Saturday after 9/11. I headed out to IRM partly just to do my normal volunteer thing, but also to try to get my mind off the events of that week. IIRC, I ended up helping Pete replace a horn on one of the CTA singles. Nothing notable really happened that day; it was just Pete and I working on that CTA car and taking it out for a spin afterwards. But for the first time since that dreadful Tuesday morning, I was finally able to think about something other than hijacked airliners and burning skysrapers. I returned home that evening in a much better position to face the weeks ahead. Thanks, Pete.
Regarding the Trolley Parade on July 4th, I may actually be able to make it out there that day after all. My friend's social plans for the day changed, leaving me free to head out to IRM. It will be nice to get out there again... I can't believe I haven't been there since October. What time are things getting underway? (I tried looking at the IRM website, but it's been offline all day today.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
From what I heard, Pete had been having some chest pains but it was misdiagnosed. I don't remember what the doctor thought it was, but it turned out to be hardened arteries. Early Saturday morning Pete got out of bed complaining of chest pains and went downstairs to sit up; when he didn't return his wife went to find him. The medics were called and they pronounced him dead on the spot at 7:30am. The funeral will be at Brust Funeral Home (I think that's the name) in Lombard tonight at 8:00; it's on Main Street, but I'm not exactly sure where.
As for Fourth of July, the Trolley Pageant is set to start between 1:00 and 1:30. The CA&E reenactment will be earlier, around 11:30 or noon.
Frank Hicks
I'm really shocked and saddened to hear about this. I saw Pete
just over a month ago when CERA came out east, and he looked fine.
Keep us posted, Frank.
Not to sound morbid, but none of us knows when that day will come.
May he rest in peace.
Condolences and best wishes to his family and all of you who knew him.
34 Street Connector, that would take 1 downtown express track from the 6th Avenue line and connect it to 1 downtown express track on the broadway line, and the same will go for the uptown express tracks. So the stop list would be like this
34St / 6th Avenue --> 14 Street / Broadway
12 Street/ Broadway --> 34 Street / 6th Avenue
It would work marvels though it would be one hell of an engineeing challenge and the new lines that could be created. A broadway line that goes on CPW. WOW! I could see alot of ideas with this connector if it were built.
That's a great idea. Would you extend track further east and allow it to terminate at Park Av, with a free interchange to the IRT Lex?
Why not go even further and extend it to Grand Central.
OK. Same platform transfer to the new LIRR GCT servcice being built?
Stupidest, most insane thing I ever heard.
I read the log of the chat where you described this to Tevi, and I told him the same thing.
Not only is what you described completely impossible without demolishing everything, digging a huge hole and rebuilding from the ground up, it creates no advantages.
For much, much cheaper, one can build a 6 track tunnel and 12-lane bridge to replace the Manhattan Bridge, keeping the bridge open while replacing, and even get capacity improvements out of it.
"For much, much cheaper, one can build a 6 track tunnel and 12-lane bridge to replace the Manhattan Bridge, keeping the bridge open while replacing, and even get capacity improvements out of it."
You're crazy, the cost of demolishing, trafic jams, rebuilding, shutting down lines, will cause so much hell, it wouldn't be funny. Plus you have to reconfigure all the tracks south and north of the bridges, meaning demloishing tunnels, removing switches and digging up alot of streets. Besides either end of the manhattan bridge cannot handle 6 lanes in 1 direction each. At maximum 3 lanes each direction is suitable.
All of that would be far less disruptive than what you propose to do.
Tearing, up flatbush avenue, canal street, reconfiguring dekalb, signal fixing, tunnel building, bridge demolishing, all that and its till more expensive then digging a big 4,500 ft long hole, and build 2 tracks similar to whats been done on the Queens Blvd Line? Also if it was built, the new manhattan bridge would be a toll bridge with the current budget crisis, and not to mention all of the traffic you'll be putting on the Brooklyn Bridge. I say thats a hell of a lot more expensive.
What traffic would you put onto the Brooklyn Bridge? The Manhattan Bridge would be wider.
The land near either approach of the Manhattan Bridge is much cheaper than in the Herald Square area, and it consists largely of unlandmarked, disposable buildings. DeKalb would not have to be reconfigured. The tunnels would be under the bridge, the tracks would temporarily go around the sides while the tunnels would be connected.
Meanwhile, the Sixth Avenue line through Herald Square is already the most expensive section of subway because it has to be above the City Water Tunnel, above the LIRR tracks, below PATH, and below the Broadway Subway. How are you going to build a tunnel through all this?
Sorry, but you cannot compare this to extending a dead-ending subway line along a street with no major utilities (like a water trunk), and connecting underneath a subway line that has nothing underneath it other than earth and nothing above it other than a wide street.
How can you go on and use the budget crisis to put down my ideas, when you don't consider that to be a roadblock to your idea? As for tolling the bridge, that should be done now, using continuously variable toll rates (the toll rate changes each hour according to demand with no published rates).
Toll rate changes, that is quite the interesting idea. By the way good debate. I would like to look at an architectual map of the Herald Square area with you and dicuss the idea further.
Do I hear a Boston Big Dig project in the future?
Seriously, Manhattan is becoming so overburdened with underground infrastructure that it becomes prohibitively expensive to build anything underground, because you have to move everything else.
Possible solutions:
1. Do a Seattle/Atlanta, and declare that the 2nd floor of buildings is now the first floor and put new lines on what was the street.
2. Hang the NIMBYs, revive the lease and franchises of the Manhattan Elevated Company and rebuilt the "Open Air Lines."
3. Consider the ideas of Fernando Ferrar, whose recent mayoral campaign was kind of overshadowed by Other Issues and build a new lineal downtown in the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens (or as pig would probably have it, the Cities of Brooklyn, Williamsburgh and Long Island City) and build a magnificent high speed loop to connect it all.
At least these solutions would show more imagination than what we have in the City today.
Oh, and elect Larry Littlefield mayor.
Oh, and elect Larry Littlefield mayor.
Larry Littlefield would have to carpetbag from the City of Brooklyn, wouldn't he?
I thought he was in Mr. Bronck's Land.
No, but the annexed district would not need carpetbagging.
Then I take it you don't like the idea?
The routing might be useful, but you would instantly be cutting the capacity of both the downtown sides of the 6th Avenue Line and the uptown part of the Broadway BMT Line.
So I would say no.
If I had a fish, I wouldn't be hungry.
I think that extending, rebuilding, or reconfiguting any existing line is mostly out of the question.
NEW LINES, NEW Crossings, and NEW Trunks is all that can reasonably be done.
And they probably couldn't interconnect with the existing without disrupting the whole world.
Take for example my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Line:
It is all new subway, and built deeply under existing routes where they need to cross, but is intricately woven about so as to avoid sharp turns, and to avoid existing routes.
I have checked out the main water tunnels, and they seem to be much much deeper than even the deepest of subway lines would go.
Because the new line does not run on any of the existing lines, it can be designed as a HIGH SPEED (75mph) line run with computerized precision.
It would probably cost less to build than any major ditzing with existing infrastructure.
I think the whole deal with building fantasy subways is to work them into the system without disrupting the system or slowing it down.
Any additional merges will slow it down.
As far as midtown goes, you take the line that gets you the closest to where you want to go without much in the way of transfers.
When I lived in Brooklyn and worked at St. Francis Church (31st&7th),
I took the BMT to 34th Street. There was NO REASON to change trains at 14th Street to take the IRT. Walking a few blocks in midtown is acceptable. Subways do not need to provide door to door service. It is sufficient that it runs from Neighborhood to the City.
Elias
I agree with you it is not easy to extend existing routes. It seems a lot easier than it really is. For example, it may sound easy to extend the, let's say the Queens Blvd line past 179th Street. Sure, it wouldn't be that difficult to extend it physically. The problem is that thought has to be given about all the new people using the line. The Queens Blvd line is packed now, think about if they extended the line, let's say to Francis Lewis Blvd. The train would probably be packed before it gets to 179th Street. Then what would they do with all the people that want to get on after 179th Street. The only way to extend some lines would be to build totally bypass lines, or a super express. It's not as simple as just adding tracks to the end of a current line.
Rebuild the 7 el into a 4 track High speed 30-40 mph on locals, 40-60 mph express upto 74st broadway. That would take alot of congestion off. Or you could build another pair on express tracks on the Queens blvd. line along queens blvd. There is alot of room and no NIMBYS concerns.
Extending past 179th Street wouldn't necessarily be a problem. All of the people who would ride it are already taking the bus to it.
The Pig is correct, the people living east of the line are still getting to work now, so a simple extension ought not of itself mean more passengers for the *subway system*, but it may change the riding patterns of some of those people. They might choose to take the new line instead of an express bus, or perhaps a bus to the (7) train. It is difficult to guess how patterns might change. If you go further east in Queens, especially with a super express, you will begin to pull traffic from the LIRR to your new line.
It is so tempting to extend the Hillside line to the county line, but much greater trunk and crossing capacity would be needed. At the moment we seem to have more crossing capacity in the QB area than we have QB trunk capacity, but it does not seem to be in the most convienent alignments possible.
Is there any rason why the express tracks between Continential and QBP cannot carry 45 tph right now, assuming the use of both the 53rd and 63rd Street Tunnels, and Improved turnabout capacity at Jamaica Center?
Why not the (F) and (Q) to 179th Street and the (E) to Jamaica Center all at 15thp?
And if that could be done, why not turn the (Q) at 189th Street and the (F) at the County Line.
Elias
A while back, the subject of the large jury award to the woman who was lying on the tracks and was hit by a subway train was discussed on the board. A letter to the editor of the NY Times makes the case that the jury award was reasonable and correct. Those damn T/Os should learn to stop a speeding subway train like the family SUV!
You would never guess it was writen by the President-Elect New York State Trial Lawyers Assn
I don't know how to do links, but there is where to find it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/01/opinion/L01TORT.html?tntemail1
The special July 4th Service Map is up on wmata.com. Basically the same as in previous years: Orange line east of Stadium-Armory alternates between New Carollton and Addison Rd, Blue runs between Huntington and Rosslyn. Yellow goes to Franconia/Springfield. Smithsonian station will be closed for security (and also crowd control as it has often been majorly clogged).
Can I obtain a map from you ? It may be too late to request one from WMATA.
Please use my e-mail address.
Bill "Newkirk"
What do you mean "obtain a map from [me]"? If you mean the PDF file, just click the link in the earlier message I posted and it'll open in your browser (assuming you have Acrobat 5 installed on the computer), or you can save it to disk. I don't have any printed copies.
Once again, the crossing of the lines rears its head. WMATAGMAOAGH knows what I mean (I think I spelled his handle correctly)
Okay, so that's Green Line service from Branch Avenue to Greenbelt and Branch Avenue to Fort Totten. Right. Too bad they never tried a regular split service, such as from every other Green train runs from Fort Totten to Anacostia instead of the full route.
That wouldn't help because it only would cater to riders in the District and the "outer" stations would then only have half the service, making crowding even worse. I seldom ride the line, but when I have taken it to Greenbelt, it was heavy all the way to the end. I've never taken it southbound towards Branch Av, but I would expect it's the same story since opening those stations caused a major increase in ridership. Perhaps peak hour short runs like Greenbelt/L'Enfant and Branch Av/Mt. Vernon Sq might help, as all the key in-town stations and transfers would be served from each direction. Through passengers from one end to the other would have to change trains to continue their ride, but there are probably far fewer of them than folks heading downtown.
Right. I keep forgetting that you can't do much to increase Green Line frequencies without crowding out Yellow Line trains. I was thinking more along the lines of doubling the frequency between Fort Totten and Anacostia, rather than short turn half the current trains.
That's what I get for being a DC railfan and living in Philly. Up here, we inherited the system, as opposed to being able to build it as the communities grew. As a result, there is no such thing as a "shared corridor" in the SEPTA system, because the majority of branches and spurs that were intended to be separate lines were never built.
Does anyone know whether the NYC subway was every used to deliver packages for private package delivery services or for the USPS? I don't mean individual couriers but rather large amounts of packages or letters at a given time (e.g. an entire car).
Only by private messengers.
I remember reading somewhere that when the subway first opened in 1904 the NY TImes used to have some of their papers delived via subway. Sort of makes sense since it ran through the basement of their building.
Story in Daily News:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-07-01/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-156095.asp
thanks!
Is there any plan to do anything major to the structure between Stillwell and Ocean Parkway?
Some rehabilitation work will be done at the W. 8th Street and Neptune Avenue stations.
David
I just hope the when all the rehab work on Stillwell is finished the place will look like it once did. Not only the platforms, but the downstairs area should be filled with shops, the bathrooms spruced up and the BMT signs cleaned and polished. It might go one other step towards reviving Coney Island.
Amen to that.
For once I agree with Fred, all we need now are a train od standards and Triplexs to run there in regular service, and the Parachutte Jump to reopen
Stop the presses!!!!
Bob and Fred agree on something! Now I've seen and heard it all.:-)
Now Steve, let's not get a case of apoplexy over this.
We agree to rag on you when we get together in October
Me and my big mouth.
Just watch if in the old BMT signs there isn't a slip-up toward honesty that would read like this: Brighton, Culver, West End, and Slow Beach lines.
Don't take this too personally Q---but stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
That is in Arcadia Cakif, because of all the SMOG
You have to feel sorry for poor old Fred.
That Southern California smog has gotten to his head.
He's went out there, went there to teach.
It's much more preferable to riding the Slow Beach.
Fred ... sorry to tell you, but the entire station is supposed to be enclosed in a Euro-style train shed structure. It's not going to look the same at all. Not even close.
--Mark
Hey El Marko, you have any other good news to tell me?
Yes, Fred, I do :) ... the new world record for consuming Nathan's hot dogs is 50.5 in 12 minutes. The same Japanese guy who won last year did it again this year. Second place finisher (a train conductor from Brooklyn, I heard; anyone know him?) ate 26.
--Mark
That Japanese guy is pretty big, isn't he?
He's described as "thin as a rail" in the news media.
I can understand putting a police officer at the last station before a river crossing (Tube) like Lex stops (N/W/R or E/V) but I don't understand placing a cop at Queensboro Plaza (one on both levels) when the Tube for the N/W is so far away.
Is this officer making sure no one walks down the right of way to the tube?
I assume maybe trackworkers (who have to check in with the cop if they are going to work in the tube) would access the 60th St. tube closer to the mouth of the tube then the station.
I could be wrong though and they walk down from Queens Plaza (or up, ugh).
I don't see their purpose at all. 7 times out of 10, when I pass them at either 161/RIVER or 155/8TH AVENUE, they are "napping". Real reassuring...NOT.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's called "Earning overtime for eating doughnuts."
I'm happy to see them there, earning overtime, protecting our a**es.
It's freaking hot down there, and I'm sure any one of use stationed in a chair in those conditions would have a helluv a time staying awake.
Seen at 138th St downtown 4/5 on Monday night: empty chair, many newspapers, 2 cans of Raid Roach Repellent .... uh oh, you think the Roaches got him?
--Mark
Rats. Big as rabits, especially at wall street and fulton.
It's total B.S. If you are going to blow up the tubes I doubt 1 cop at the station is going to stop you. If you put your mind to it and want to do it you will do it. Plus there are other ways to destroy the tubes if you want to.
It's total B.S. If you are going to blow up the tubes I doubt 1 cop at the station is going to stop you. If you put your mind to it and want to do it you will do it. Plus there are other ways to destroy the tubes if you want to.
It's possible that the cops serve the same purpose as the National Guard M.P.'s at Penn Station. My stepdaugher and I were talking about them yesterday, in the context of one of my periodic rants as to how Americans (and especially New Yorkers) have turned into paranoid bed-wetting cowards who see a towel head lurking around every corner ready to pounce. I pointed out that they'd be of little use in a bombing situation - not that there's even the remotest chance of such thing occurring, of course - and seem to spend most of their time flirting with young women. Anyway, she pointed out that the National Guard dudes probably are there for reassurance - their presence is meant to make Penn Station seem safer and thereby lure back fearful people who'd otherwise stay out of crowded public places. The cops in the stations nearest the river tubes might be doing the same, largely symbolic thing, in other words making the subway seem safer, although their lower visibility in contrast to the Penn Station dudes might weaken that theory a bit. I still think that's the case.
, in the context of one of my periodic rants as to how Americans (and especially New Yorkers) have turned into paranoid bed-wetting cowards who see a towel head lurking around every corner ready to pounce.
Really? I think most of us (New Yorkers) go about our business every day and don't get paranoid about homicidal terrorists lurking behind every corner. Look at the crowds of New Yorkers (not tourists) in Times Square.
you and I and everyone else knows very well there are no New Yorkers at Times Square
I PROPOSE:
The fare on the subway would not be posted, instead, it would constantly vary in proportion to the number of people riding at one time. The more people riding, the more you pay.
That needed correction.
How can a variable be constant?
When the same variable shows up throughout a system of equations. It's presence is constant, but its value changes.
Maybe that's a correct mathematical answer, but in a computer program that would simply be a named or global variable, no?
Yes, that's correct! Very good.
What is the point? I can understand this in terms of premium pay highway lanes. In that circumstance, as a premium lane (i.e., express lane) fills up, you raise the price so that only those who are willing to pay the most use the lane, thereby regulating its use in a market fashion.
By the time a person shows up to use the subway, their use is not likely to be cost-responsive, so instead of regulating use, I suspect you would simply be evoking anger.
LIRR does this (distance based and peak train fares). Washington Metrorail charges distance-based fare, though I do not think it has a peak-time premium.
I meant to say LIRR does it indirectly, in that peak trains are expected to have more people aboard. The fare isn't set to a passenger load formula.
Exactly. So they're presumably encouraging off-peak ridership and making some people ride at less crowded times through a financial incentive.
But I'm not sure about what pig is suggesting--if people don't know what the fare will be until they're ready to get on the system, what good result is created?
The fare would be announced on the radio. It would only change hourly.
What is the point of this??? to annoy people to no end? One could understand distance based fare, but HOURLY variation???
Solve this problem: Place coin and bill acceptors in the seat. As soon as you sit down, a steel arm holds you in the seat until you deposit the right $ (exact change only or tokens, please). The display of how much to pay changes based on the current weight of the train. If you don't pay, the arm doesn't release you - only the transit police can unlock it and they will release you after you pay a fine.
:0)
How many human rights laws would you like to violate today?
As many as possible at the same time.
I usually don't get a seat when I ride the subway. Does that mean I get to ride for free?
Absolutely - until we install handcuffs on the poles (they release when you drop a token in the box haging from the pole).
The trains are crowded enough that I don't need to hold onto a pole. What then?
Leg Shackles, chain you to the floor!
The trains are crowded enough that I don't have floor space to stand on.
One the roof you go. If your afriad of hights, we can have you hanging between the resitors and a air resivor, depression style.
Hang you from the ceiling? (If you don't put in exact change...)
THe ceiling? But there's another level of passengers up there!
See this:
Post 350691
The Continuously variable fare idea for the subway=bad
As toll for bridges=good.
Yes, Metro has peak fares:
Regular Fare $1.10 base (0-3 miles), maximum fare $3.25
Reduced Fare $1.10 (0-7 miles), $1.60 (7-10 miles), $2.10 (10+miles)
Regular fares are charged 5:30-9:30 a.m. and 3 to 7 p.m. weekdays.
Reduced fares are charged at all other times.
Is that based on entry time or exit time?
I don't know.
Officially, it's based on entry time. Based on my and my daughter's limited experience, however, it would appear that BOTH times must be within the window for the higher fare to be charged. Someone with more opportunities than I have might want to check it out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is based on the entry time. If you happen to be in a station just as the off-peak (non-rush) fare takes effect you will see knots of people wating for the clock/announcment (sometimes no announcment, everybody waits for 5 minutes more). It happens every weekday.
Are you going for this prize?
A previous subtalk post
Yes, but I've moved on to bigger and crazier things.
Like an East River El
That must be some strong pot......
Are you drinking vodka out of the bottle again?
;-}
lol...Hey, I didn't start these posts.
Heck with an East River El. How about an East River Submarine Train? Make it a Cable Car line so the 3rd rail won't short out. We could even(eventually) build an extension to Europe. "Now boarding at 37th Street and 3rd Avenue...Through service to London, Paris, Amsterdam, and Moscow." If we're gonna get silly, lets do it right. ENJOY
Or you could TBM to europe. Got to **ll Virgin Airlines. You must have a island every couple miles so people can escape.You will have to start it in newfoundland because the mountain range that streaches all the way to europe (deepest 600 ft.) That mountain range is also where first telegraph cable was laid on.
I PROPOSE:
The fare on the subway would not be posted, instead, it would constantly vary in proportion to the number of people riding at one time. The more people riding, the more you pay.
As I've noted before, that would penalize ordinary working stiffs who have to punch time clocks and therefore have no choice but to ride during peak periods. Your suit-covered-anus, alpha-male executive types, in contrast, usually have the flexibility to adjust their working hours and avoid the busiest (and under your proposal, costliest) times.
The executives have earned that high-exalted status. The rabble must earn its way to a seat!
I propose that, at certain times, only Armani-suited men wearing silk ties and gold cuff links be allowed to board.
:0)
(I propose that, at certain times, only Armani-suited men wearing silk ties and gold cuff links be allowed to board.)
That's as ridiculous as designating an entire desirable part of Manhattan and saying that you can only live there if you are an artist. Whoops, we did that already. Or building government subsidized (Mitchell Lama) middle income housing, but letting certain public employee unions, non-profits and political insiders know when and where the "first come first serve" waiting list would open up. Whoops, we did that too.
"Liberal" New York.
You need to factor in a "foamer" surcharge, plus an additional surcharge for those who insist that 76th Street exists but who refuse to obtain and post official documentation substantiating their claims.
How about $5 to sit at the railfan window?
Even better $5 to enter the transverse cab with drivers license (saftey purposes). Could have a vending machine dollar taker and a CC style dip reader for the Drivers License.
Even better $5 to enter the transverse cab with drivers license (saftey purposes). Could have a vending machine dollar taker and a CC style dip reader for the Drivers License. Also the Train could authenticate the Drivers license with NYS.
"How about $5 to sit at the railfan window?"
Hehehe... When Steamtown was still at Bellows Falls, I went there to see and ride the train. When I learned that *members* could get a ride in the LOCOMOTIVE, I joined up on the spot. Only $25.00, what a deal... I even got to sound the wistle at the crossings!
Best $25. bucks I ever spent.
Now the place is a Federal Park, and so you cannot feed the bears.
Elias
When Steamtown was still at Bellows Falls... I even got to sound the w[h]istle at the crossings!
So did I, back about 1961 or 1962... my father had made the acquaintance of F. Nelson Blount, the founder of Steamtown, while working on an IBM contract at Blount Seafood Co. We were invited up for a personal tour of the place and were guests at Mr. Blount's home for the weekend. I rode the cab twice, once each day, and had the privilege of blowing the whistle and (attempting to) shovel coal into the firebox of the steam locomotive. Not sure which engine it was... my recollection says it was a different locomotive each day but I'm not sure. (I was small enough to sit on Mr. Blount's lap while he was running the locomotive.) I also rode the cab of a diesel switcher on Sunday morning with one of Mr. Blount's employees.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NO,NO,NO! all 'variable' fares invariably damage most the workers who, have no choice as to shift times, and live further from the jobsite. IMHO, as the fares are a tiny fraction of the nominal costs, there is little point in 'shafting' the lower wage workers. The multi-hundred dollar an hour lawyer can wait to noard off peak but has no economic need to, the fast food server has the need, but a fixed schedule.
NO,NO,NO! all 'variable' fares invariably damage most the workers who, have no choice as to shift times, and live further from the jobsite.
You have no clue, do you? You're sold on the highway lobby argument "congesting charging will hurt those who have to work fixed shift times".
When I worked retail three decades ago, I was expected to appear just prior to the store opening, or my shift begining. How is this lack of elasticity related to highway lobby propaganda? A friend of mine who worked for one of the dot bomb outfits was given a 'commuter check' each month along w/ his $100k salary. (and no fixed office hours --a programmer) How many workers at Burger Wemdy Donalds get such benefits?
dang, by 'commuter check' did you mean Transitchek?
And invariable fares invariably damage anyone who travels short distances off-peak -- whether rich or poor. Why should someone poor who happens to be traveling in the middle of the day from Harlem to Times Square subsidize someone rich who happens to commute every day from Forest Hills to Wall Street?
If you want the rich to give money to the poor, fine, but do it under the guise of the rich giving money to the poor, not transportation, and stop making assumptions about who travels long distances at peak times, because they're often wrong.
Pig's proposal is obviously unworkable, but, logistics and politics aside, some sort of variable fare makes sense.
So I am missing something here.
1. If farebox recovery is below 50% (more like 20-30 in SF bay area) and if these 'deficits' are made up by non-regressive taxation, 'haves' are explicitly aiding 'have-nots' I believe this describes the economics of EVERY transit agency in the US (although regressibe sales taxes are also often a component of the funding dampening the benefits to the lower wage earners)
2. The elimination of 'double fare neighborhoods' with Metrocard bus to subway transfers was not(???) a move toward transit equity.
3. As to distance, I seem to recall that rents are generally lower as the distance from the CBD increases until you cross some magic border to'desireable' suburbs.
1. Farebox recovery on the NYC subway is well over 50%. It's the suburban commuter rail systems that take in the major subsidies, even though the subway has much greater and less affluent ridership. The only reason subsidies are necessary for the subway is that subsidies are also given to other modes of transportation.
2. It was a political move that, in a way, made an arbitrary transfer policy a bit less arbitrary. Keep in mind that, thanks to the new transfers, it's often trivially easy to make a round trip in Manhattan on a single fare. Not what you had in mind, is it?
3. Not true at all in NYC. Nor is it entirely relevant -- some people who can't afford high rents prefer to live tightly packed in high-rent areas over having more spacious accomodations in less expensive areas. But this raises an interesting question. Transportation over long distances costs more than transportation over short distances, but you think that the people who use low-cost transportation should subsidize the people who use high-cost transportation. Why don't you apply the same reasoning to housing costs? Shouldn't the people with low housing costs subsidize the people with high housing costs?
Good post.
Commuter rail gets about 25% of its operating cost from fares.
As to NYCTA transfers, the Metrocard transfer directly helps people who use city and LI Bus services, and this is a less affluent crowd, on the whole than the railroad commuters. But because it helped build ridership, it also helped fill the TA's coffers.
The only reason subsidies are necessary for the subway is that subsidies are also given to other modes of transportation.
I don't quite follow. The automobile is the one form of transportation that can be said to compete directly with the subway, not counting the even-more-subsidized buses. Whether auto ownership really is subsidized is one of those arguments that can go on forever without an answer. You've certainly heard the competing claims, which basically boil down to whether the value of the (mostly) free roads which the government provides is outweighed by the fuel and sales taxes motorists pay.
Even if we're to assume that auto ownership actually is subsidized, however, it does not mean that the subway therefore is unable to be self-supporting. New York's population and commercial density, and the resulting scarcity and high price of parking, makes driving an unattractive option for most people regardless of whatever subsidies they might be receiving. In other words, if gasoline suddenly dropped to 50 cents per gallon and car insurance rates plunged 75%, the subway would still be the better option for most intra-city trips. More to the point, if driving became crushingly more expensive, it doesn't follow that subway ridership would boom. Ridership probably would increase to some extent off-hours and in the outer boroughs, but it's very doubtful that we'd see any dramatic changes. Subway ridership and vehicle use are independent from one another to a much higher degree than might be imagined.
A much better way to look at things is to stop worrying about relative subsidies for various modes of transportation, and instead say The subway is a vital public service for New York and deserves whatever subsidies it requires, within reason.
The subway is a vital public service for New York and deserves whatever subsidies it requires, within reason.
The local supermarket is also a valid public service, yet it usually doesn't receive subsidies. They get paid for the food stamps they accept, but the government doesn't pay them a dime for non-poor customers.
They also get paid for the coupons they accept from customers.
"The local supermarket is also a valid public service, yet it usually doesn't receive subsidies. They get paid for the food stamps they accept, but the government doesn't pay them a dime for non-poor customers. "
Invalid comparison. If supermarket chains were required to open stores every 10 blocks throughout the city, operate them 24 hours a day, request permission from the Governor to change prices, and put up with customers' scratching and breaking windows on a daily basis, then you could compare the supermarket to the subway.
I don't care about any comparisons.
Peter Rosa justified the subsidies on account of the subway being a valid public service. I only pointed out an unsubsidised valid public service.
I don't quite follow. The automobile is the one form of transportation that can be said to compete directly with the subway, not counting the even-more-subsidized buses. Whether auto ownership really is subsidized is one of those arguments that can go on forever without an answer. You've certainly heard the competing claims, which basically boil down to whether the value of the (mostly) free roads which the government provides is outweighed by the fuel and sales taxes motorists pay.
I have yet to hear a credible claim that they are, as long as local streets are taken into account. Costs aside from the actual construction and maintenance, like noise pollution, air pollution, the use of eminent domain, and the loss of property tax and/or rent are invariably ignored in the comparison, even though the subway was built underground specifically to minimize these costs. (Oh, and BTW, sales taxes shouldn't be included in the computation unless you're referring specifically to sales taxes charged on motorist-oriented products and services above and beyond the sales taxes charged on other products and services.)
Even if we're to assume that auto ownership actually is subsidized, however, it does not mean that the subway therefore is unable to be self-supporting.
That's true. Perhaps, even when pitted against a subsidized road network, the subway system might be able to squeak by without subsidies. But why should it have to? Let's level the playing field.
New York's population and commercial density, and the resulting scarcity and high price of parking, makes driving an unattractive option for most people regardless of whatever subsidies they might be receiving. In other words, if gasoline suddenly dropped to 50 cents per gallon and car insurance rates plunged 75%, the subway would still be the better option for most intra-city trips. More to the point, if driving became crushingly more expensive, it doesn't follow that subway ridership would boom. Ridership probably would increase to some extent off-hours and in the outer boroughs, but it's very doubtful that we'd see any dramatic changes. Subway ridership and vehicle use are independent from one another to a much higher degree than might be imagined.
Yes, very few people actually drive into Manhattan -- and look at the awful traffic they cause! They inflict the traffic jams not only on themselves but also on bus riders (who have to sit in the traffic jams, since NYCDOT doesn't seem to be a big fan of enforced bus lanes), on neighborhood residents and workers (who have to listen to and breathe the output of the traffic jams and who have to dodge the traffic while crossing streets), on delivery vehicles, and on people who actually do need to drive and are willing to pay the cost.
A much better way to look at things is to stop worrying about relative subsidies for various modes of transportation, and instead say The subway is a vital public service for New York and deserves whatever subsidies it requires, within reason.
But whose reason do we rely on? Yours? Mine? Wendell Cox's? If the subway is a cheaper way to get around than whatever's predominant in city X, then why should we pay for city X's overpriced transportation? Conversely, if the subway is a more expensive way to get around than whatever's predominant in city Y, why should city Y pay for our overpriced transportation?
If we got rid of all the subsidies for transportation resources (including the hidden ones I listed above), then we don't have to worry about relative subsidies because they all drop to zero.
Better yet, individuals and businesses would finally be directly encouraged to use the most efficient form of transportation available, not the one that happens to receive enough subsidies to make it the cheapest to use. Global efficiency translates into lower prices.
And if we decide we should help out the poor with their transportation costs, fine. Give them transportation stamps (akin to food stamps), paid for by the welfare budget, valid on any form of transportation. There are ways to determine if someone is in need of financial assistance; distance or time of travel isn't one of them.
Rather than the current system, subway seats will cost money, and people will bid for the seat between each stop. The seats will be auctioned of using a dutch auction with people choosing the seats they prefer to have.
dude what the hell are you on? i'm looking at the last 4 topics you started. you need help....
Actually this one is serious, but difficult to implement. It would be a market solution to a problem and would make money for the TA.
The seats are an asset which should be sold at the market price (supply=demand).
Stop thinking logically, and look at reality.
With the bidding that would be required, service would be delayed more than it is now.
Why would it be delayed. The bids would be made before boarding on the platform.
Ingoring Pig's coke binge, let's think about other modes of transport. On a plane, if your Gluteus maximus takes up more than one seat, you pay for both seats. On a cruise boat, if you have lots of people in your party and you take up two or more rooms, you pay more. In a taxi, if you have luggauge and you use the trunk, it costs more (at least in Atlanta, I don't know about NYC).
Common sense pretty much says that everyone using public transit pays the same price, no matter how much space you take up. Is there any reasoning why it's different for transit? Maybe the high number of people using transit would make it impossible to sort out people? Or maybe because there isn't defined areas for people to sit of stand like you have with planes? Anyone else have any ideas?
Maybe there should be something on the fare gate. The rotating fare gates would be replaced with something like the doors on old trolleys and busses. It would be multi-section, and you would have to pay for the amount of width (# of sections) that you wished to pass through. Maybe the 2.00 standard fare, plus 20 cents for every door opened, perhaps 2 or three sections to the door, you could have metrocards with a special "wide body" fare built in, so you don't always need 20,40, or 60 cents. I have actually seen people stuck in fare gates, this would solve that problem, and allow the MTA, or whoever chooses to implement it, to collect a fare for that person who sits in two seats.
Oh well, I suppose it would proably somehow violate ADA or something, or perhaps it would be a kind of profiling, you know weight or size profiling as opposed to racial or sexual profiling. If I offended anyone, it really was not my intention, I just had an idea that i thought fit the post, so here it is, again sorry if anyone out there found this idea offensive.
Ingoring Pig's coke binge, let's think about other modes of transport. On a plane, if your Gluteus maximus takes up more than one seat, you pay for both seats. On a cruise boat, if you have lots of people in your party and you take up two or more rooms, you pay more. In a taxi, if you have luggauge and you use the trunk, it costs more (at least in Atlanta, I don't know about NYC).
Common sense pretty much says that everyone using public transit pays the same price, no matter how much space you take up. Is there any reasoning why it's different for transit? Maybe the high number of people using transit would make it impossible to sort out people? Or maybe because there isn't defined areas for people to sit of stand like you have with planes? Anyone else have any ideas?
Oops, almost forgot my flag
*****
Using wireless computer terminals, people will pay rent to use a sidewalk using a dutch auction bidding sytem.
Put down the crackpipe, and step away from the computer.
An auction will be used to sell space in the East River. This will raise enough revenues to prevent it from being torn down as was proposed earlier.
What's a "Dutch Auction?" Is it related to Dutch Courage?
Hope it has nothing to do with a Dutch Oven.
Behind teh Dutch Door.
where there are multiple of the same thing for auction. For example there are 3 items, all the same. starting price $1. 3 people bid $1 each, the price for each of them is $1. Now a another person puts a bid for $2. Now that means that one of the people will lose their item and the new guy will get it for $2 while the other 2 for $1.
No, everybody will get it for $1. Everybody gets it for the lowest bid on the high bidders list.
Now if two more people bid, one $3 and the other $5, then the two $1 people are bumped off, leaving Mr. $2 on the bottom and the current price at $2. When $2 is bumped off by a $10 bid, the winning price goes up to $3 and so on.
Okay. Thank you.
Who's going to tear down the East River?
I think someone has been exposed to too much East River Water. Perhaps you drank some?
Unfortunately not. But my auction system will let people drink and maintain their patch of water. In addition, they get to keep it when the river is elevated.
Where the East River intersects with other bodies of water, do you think it should be elevated above them, or tunnel beneath them? Or do you think the East River should be elevated throughout?
Does the crack you're smoking have a good taste? Sometimes crack doesn't have the smooth taste crackheads have come to expect.
*****
Crack is for losers. The gaol sentences for powdered are lower.
Jail time may be lower for coke, but which is more fun? :-)
*****
Also try smoking dry banana, it is as good skag.
We can't justify the expense. A simple series of locks and gates with three color traffic control while suffice at all intersections.
The East River is ill-named, for it isn't even a river.
Shhhhh!!
Yeah don't start that all over. You'll have to explain hard concepts like MOUTH and SOURCE.
I propose a stack interchange with the Hudson River and New York Bay, a diamond interchange with Newtown Creek, and a jughandle with the Harlem River. For the Long Island Sound extension, use a service road/diamond interchange system for connection with the bays on both sides, and a major stack interchange with the Connecticut River.
:-) Andrew
Where the East River intersects with other bodies of water, do you think it should be elevated above them, or tunnel beneath them? Or do you think the East River should be elevated throughout?
It doesn't get enough ridership to merit any service whatsoever, especially as it deprives some people going to midtown of a one seat ride. It should be reduced to a single track shuttle (running every 24 minutes), then torn down after 5 years for lack of ridership.
There has to be some kind of limit on the number of nonsensical threads you can start in a short period of time.
The subway seat thread was SERIOUS.
I don't want to admit that I actually thought that the variable fare might work, but I still believe in a variable toll.
I think someone needs a day at the beach.
Beach? He needs the Funny Farm
No, I need the Manor Animal Farm.
No, I need the Manor Animal Farm.
For those who can read the crossout.
Like I said, the Funny Farm. Orwell's piece worked about as well as the USSR.
I propose we have a new subway car the R179 which will operate normaly on tracks and then have blow up pontoons to cross the waterways of NYC (East River, Uppder Bay, Newton Creek et.).
I just read the June 2002 NYCTA Committee Agenda and it said that the TA can run a one track shuttle between Brighton Beach and West 8th Street but do not want to do it because it will cause too many problemms during rush hours
So why can they run a shuttle train and extend the B-68
The hell with the Riders
Thank You
In addition to the extension of bus route B68, a rush hours-only shuttle bus is to operate between Brighton Beach and Stillwell Avenue, along the route of the extended B68 (and making B68 stops).
Thank YOU :-)
David
Couldn't they build a crossover before the train(S/B) enters West 8th street
The track will probably only be sued to get trains into and out of the yard.
The track will probably only be sued to get trains into and out of the yard.
The track will probably only be sued if someone decides to go to sleep on it.
... and would probably win $14,000,000!
--Mark
Saw a Picture today of what Stillwell will Look like after Reconstruction,It will be the best looking station in the system.
Strong rumor is W also will get cut back to Bayparkway in January
if the supports are as bad as they think. Seems that when they took down the N platform the whole station was weakened more than they thought it will be.
Wowsers ... from over 3000 miles away, Unca Fred gets his revenge. They messed with his SeaBits and now the whole thing's gone dodgy. He'll be amused to hear that. :)
What no trains at all to Coney island, when was the last time that happened?
1863 or somewhere around there? I saw the station this past Christmas and well ... it does need to do the redbird thing and drop in the ocean. From what I saw of the artist's renderings though the replacement will be well worth the wait ...
See how rumors get started and things that are said become gospel?
The W (West End) will run to Stillwell Avenue during the entire duration of the shutdown (which starts September 8). It will skip around the facility, using whatever platform and tracks are available at the time. The reason the Brighton Line won't have a train shuttle (a bus shuttle will run instead) is that only Track #2 will be available to Brighton trains, and it will be used for put-ins and layups.
David
The "strong rumor" is 100% wrong. The W will be the ONLY service at Stillwell Avenue for 18 months, but it WILL be there during those 18 months (with the possible exception of some late night and/or weekend GOs, of course).
David
If there actually IS structural engineering consequences of the current demolition, then the TA is in dangerous straits should the el collapse as a result of that weakening. Back in the old days, structures were designed to remain intact or be condemned as a whole. While there's been no FACTS presented, it IS a possibility of the civil engineering standards of the time that the structure may in fact have been weakened by partial demolition.
Knowing the TA as I do from prior experience, I'm sure it's being studied and evaluatated ... but it IS possible that if damage HAS indeed been done to the structure, that the poster may be correct in the assumption that service may need to be cut back for the safety of the "public" ... no offense to anyone, but subtalk "facts" and a token WILL get you through the gate ... :)
Wonder if it's real though ... after all, it's on the internet, must be true. Heh.
The W will be the ONLY service at Stillwell Avenue for 18 months
There's some kind of historic justice to that, in that Stillwell Avenue is the site of the original West End Terminal.
Oops I was wrong, did not read far enough, there will be trains to Coney island
Hard to believe it's been 34 years since Phase 2 of the Chrystie St. connection went into effect. Essentially here's what was different:
The new 57th St. station at 6th Ave. opened, as did the Houston-to-Delancey tunnel connection.
The original KK made its debut along with the QJ. The JJ and RJ were dropped, although the RJ may have been killed earlier.
The B began running 24/7, to 57th St. during non-rush hours and to 168th St. during rush hours. It ran express along 6th Ave., but only during rush hours initially. The TT late night/Sunday shuttle was dropped.
The D began running express along 6th Ave. 24/7, which it still does to this day.
The GG was extended to Church Ave. during rush hours, and at the same time F express service from Jay St. to Kings Highway was inaugurated.
I was in the city on that day, too. My mother and I went out to LGA to meet my aunt, who flew in from Chicago to see a production at the Met in Lincoln Center. She stayed at the Lincoln Center Motor Inn, although we would have gladly put her up at our house. She still doesn't understand why she opted not to stay with us. I rode on the 7 for the first time that day, from 74th St. to Times Square, so that we could transfer to a n/b 1 to 66th St. In those days, there was no free transfer from the IND to the IRT and BMT. That afternoon, we went up to the Bronx on a speedy R-32 D train. Made the CPW express dash look easy.
Hard to believe that 34 years ago I was 16.
Hard to believe that 34 years ago I was....errr... well I didn't even exist yet (Not even in my mom's tummy yet either!)
I was married almost a year 34 years ago today
Glad you can remember that far back old man. What did you eat for dinner that night?
What day, my wedding, It was Prime Rib, Potatoes, I had a RUM AND Coke, and then to LAX for a PSA flight to San Francisco. Oct 1 1967
Good Post Steve, dug it monstrously.
:-) Sparky
I need to get to St. Barnabas Medical Center, 200 South Orange Av, Livingston NJ for a two day course next week that starts early in the morning. I can arrange to be in Bayside or the Bronx the previous night (family and friends to put me up) - so I can reach Penn Station or Hoboken and I don't start my trip in Philadelphia.
Recommendations for travel?
there is bus from penn sta in newark in that run to the hosp.
I think the NJ Transit Bus #73 connects Penn Station Newark with St. Barnabas Hospital - check www.njtransit.com. The South Orange Bus #31 may also connect those two points, but getting a schedule for the #31 is close to impossible.
Thank you - so I'll use PATH to Newark and then #73.
The following info comes from the St. Barnabas Medical Center web site:
"Bus Information: For a New Jersey Transit Bus #73 schedule, please call 1-800-772-2222. For a South Orange Bus Company Bus #31 schedule, please call (973) 242-1577."
If you can get any info on the #31, it may help you, as not all of the #73 buses go to the Medical Center.
Thank you for that very helpful post.
1948...Straphangers face the first fare hike, as the subway's original 5 cent price is jacked up to 10 cents.
Peace,
ANDEE
At least they got the r-10 on the road, first, shortly before asking for more money. :)
According to Mister R-10, William Padron, the first R-10s entered revenue service in November of 1948, about the same time the IND Fulton St. line was extended to Euclid Ave. So the 10-cent fare had already taken effect by then.
The Subway's went to a dime, while the Board of Transportation buses
and trolleys went to seven cents. Was the 5 cents transfer from
surface transit to rapid transit instituted the same day? It was
two cents from rapid to surface, then all went to 15 cents, if memory
serves correctly. I was only a lad then.
;-) Sparky
The transfers were introduced the same day as the fare hike. Also, they softened the blow by instituting the first interdivisional (BMT-IRT-IND) transfers that weren't based on line abandonments. Before then, if you transferred from the IRT to the BMT at Times Square, say, you paid another nickel.
The transfers between bus and subway were discontinued a couple of years later (an interim fare hike) then all fares went to 15 cents (except a couple of oddities) in 1953. The fare didn't rise again until 1966 (20 cents) but they absolutely gutted the system to hold the fare for those 13 years.
So somewheres I have this little gizmo that can hold a bunch of dimes. Actually, it held a bunch of little subway tokens. 'What do you want for your thirty five cents...to live forever?' From the crew of Marx/Engels/Lenin, a very Happy July 4th. CI Peter
I remember those. My dad bought them to keep tockens separate from dimes, since they were so nearly alike in size.
I've still got mine. It holds 9 tokens, so you would buy 10, use the first one in the turnstyle and put the other 9 in the holder. Keeps a week's worth of rides in a handy little holder.
I just saw one of those for sale on eBay the other day, still with three of the "Y" cutout tokens inside. If you hurry, it may still be on there....
Say, I have one of those token holders. Bought it from one of those station vending machines. It even has a few of the old 20-cent tokens I hadn't used up.
I remember using one of those token holders when I was in High School (took the subway every day from Brooklyn to Stuyvesant HS in Manhattan, on 15th St. near First Ave. in those days).
-- Ed Sachs
The Subway's went to a dime, while the Board of Transportation buses
and trolleys went to seven cents. Was the 5 cents transfer from
surface transit to rapid transit instituted the same day? It was
two cents from rapid to surface, then all went to 15 cents, if memory
serves correctly. I was only a lad then.
Also the turnstyles were removed from Brooklyn's 6000s Streetcars &
its PCCs.
;-) Sparky
Turnstyles in the trolleys? That must have been amusing. Never knew.
Kevin,
On the single ended cars in Brooklyn, there was a turnstyle right
behind the Operators position. If & when you make it to Branford,
a member located one of these turnstyles and it awaits instalation
on BQT PCC 1001 > the grand daddy of all PCCs. <
;-) Sparky
Your amongst a few of the "Sub Talk"ers out there who still remember when the subway fare was just 5 cents.
#3 West End Jeff
Not me. The nickel fare was before my time.
Peace,
ANDEE
My folks remember the 10-cent fare. When they came to the States in 1949, they stayed in the New York area for a week or so before heading on to Indiana, and my father's cousin took them for a ride on the subway one day, putting a dime in the turnstile for each of them.
I know the fare was 15 cents in 1965, but have very little recollection of it. I may have noticed a "Tokens, 15c. How many, please?" sticker on a token booth at 36th St. in Brooklyn of 34th St. in Manhattan. I remember the 20-cent fare very well.
My mother still remembers the 5 cent fare from when she lived in the Bronx and took the IRT Jerome Ave. line into Manhattan. Of course she rode on the IRT Low-Vs that ruled the now #4 line at the time.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember the 15c fare, though I must have ridden on the train with my parents for a dime.
My father used to live up on 68th street or some such place. Building Radios was his hobby, and he'd WALK to Radio Row (You all know where that was, right) to buy parts. He said he could not see paying 10c (5c each way) to by a part for 2c!
Elias
The earliest fare I remember was I think $.75. I think then it went to $.90 I guess that was in the early 80's. BTW, what is the history of the fare, and dates...$.05 to $.10, etc?
I remember 1948 for a far different reason. My Dad took my on the subway a lot that year because I loved it so much, but there was another reason. This 8-year old baseball fanatic (my Dad's fault) was in a bummer because his two favorite players, Dixie Walker and Eddie Stanky has been traded to the Pirates and the Braves. It was really a bummer, plus the fact the Dodgers were in a rebuilding mode and we had to watch some unknowns like Snider, Hodges, Campanella, Erskine and Roe now play for my then team. Thinks did turn out all right, though. Didn't they? And when Stanky became a Giant in 1950 I developed a genuine hatred for the little bastard.
And now the Dodgers are in 1st place(Not for long I hope) and where are the Mets?
Flushing their season down the toilet.:-( So what else is new?
Stanky was sold to the Braves after a contract dispute with Branch Rickey. Leo Durocher always sided with the player during any salary dispute, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, regarding his tenure with the Dodgers. That and the fact that Rickey wanted Jackie Robinson to play second, which would have made Stanky expendable.
Walker was traded because he made it clear he would not play on the same team with Robinson.
Rest assured Dodger fans felt the same way about Leo when he went over to the Giants as well as Stanky.
So Fred, when did you go to Ebbets Field for the first time? You already know about my first trip to Shea - it was on your wedding day!:-)
You went to Shea for the first time on August 1, 1970? That's amazing. We are blood brothers of a sort. Good show. I went to Ebbets Field a couple of times reluctantly with my Dad in 1945 and 1946. It was in 1947 on Memorial Day that I went with enthusiasm to watch the Dodgers lose two to the Braves. From then on I was a fanatic. After that double loss it was very very rare when we went to see the Dodgers play and watch them lose. They seemed to win just about every time we went except once or twice as I remember. Even when we went to the Polo Grounds, it would be the Dodgers beating the Giants. And you are a hell of a baseball fan. Your facts are absolutely accurate. But as a kid I had no inkling why Walker and Stanky were traded. I just liked them. If I knew what I later knew I would have said good riddance. Jackie became the heart and soul of the Brooklyn Dodgers and I think from 1949-1952 he was the best all around player in baseball.
Did you happen to be at Ebbets Field on August 31, 1950? Hodges hit four dingers that day against the Braves.
How about the Dodger Sym-phony or Hilda Chester? Do you remember them?
Oh BTW, were you watching that Mets game on ESPN a week or so ago when they zoomed in on a marker sign in the left field upper deck? That's the spot where the late Tommie Agee's monster home run made contact on April 10, 1969. That was one of the longest home runs ever hit at Shea. They say it would have gone well over 500 feet had it not been for the upper deck. I'm not sure if the ball was still rising when it struck that spot.
---the Braves--- any other dinosaurs out there who remember that would have been the BOSTON Braves, I'm almost positive anyway. The mve to Milwaukee came later.
Braves moved about 1953.
...to Milwaukee. They then moved to Atlanta in 1966.
On March 17, 1953, while in the middle of spring training and still wearing their red, black and white caps with a thick "B" on it, the Perini Brother announced that they were moving their Boston team to Milwaukee. I think the new caps arrived two days later. The Braves moved up from last in attendance in '52 to first in '53. They also moved up from 7th place (in an eight team league) to second that year. The Brooklyn Dodgers had probably their most lethal team that year, winning 105 games, trouncing the Giants 15 of 22 times, and won the pennant by 13 games. Alas, they lost the Series to the Yanks again, four games to two. Two years later they won it all but, ironically, their team was not as good as the '53 team except for the great middle and late relief pitching.
The Braves drew 281,000 for the entire 1952 SEASON! The Rockies would draw that much for a four-game series with the Giants or Braves in 1993 and/or 1994 when they still played at old Mile High Stadium. Alas, the honeymoon is over in Denver. Attendance has been declining year by year. Even so, the Rockies are still looking to draw 2.8 or 2.9 million this year.
>>> Jackie became the heart and soul of the Brooklyn Dodgers and I think from 1949-1952 he was the best all around player in baseball. <<<
You make the same mistake so many have made. What you really mean is he was the best all around player in the major leagues. There were a lot of great players you never got to see.
Tom
We know about the 10-cent fare.
It went up to 15 cents on July 25, 1953;
to 20 cents on July 5, 1966;
to 30 cents on January 2, 1970;
to 35 cents in 1971;
to 50 cents in 1975;
to 60 cents in 1980;
to 75 cents in 1981;
to 90 cents in January of 1984.
Not sure about the $1.00, $1.10, and $1.25 fares. It's been $1.50 for the last few years, anyway.
$1.50 since the fall of 1995.
6 1/2 years and counting. The last time the fare held steady for that long was back in the days of the 15-cent fare. At least we don't have deferred maintenance now.
>>> The last time the fare held steady for that long was back in the days of the 15-cent fare. <<<
Well, 1904-1948 was a little bit longer for a steady fare.
Yeah, and ask anyone who rode the subways in the 30's and 40's what they thought about the maintenance. I remember when I was a kid nearly 50 years ago (yes, I'm over 50 but I didn't KNOW about the subway until I was 4/5 or so and broke a tooth on a pole in a LoV owing to a BIE) that the common impression of the subway was that it was noisy and FILTHY ... even the windows were never hosed down and your "Sunday best" would get ruined by all the dirt on the subway ... then there were the "winos" (see? Some things NEVER change) ...
>>> the common impression of the subway was that it was noisy and FILTHY ... even the windows were never hosed down and your "Sunday best" would get ruined by all the dirt on the subway <<<
Wait a minute, the subways just reflected the rest of the city. I could take a shower, put on a white shirt and tie, and within an hour there was black ring around the collar without going near a subway. This was mainly due the ubiquitous Con Edison coal burning generating plants, and the many buildings which still burned coal for hot water, heating, and industrial purposes. The interior surfaces of the subway cars, and places to sit on the platforms were dusted by each rider, so they were not the cause of clothing getting dirty except for the occasional wad of chewing gum left on a seat, and you knew darn well not to lean against a pillar in a station, or touch an exterior surface of a rail car which was grime a 1/4 inch thick. The subway platforms had more litter due to the vending machines and places to buy food within the stations, but dirt did not leap from the surfaces to cling to passengers' clothing.
Tom
Hahahahaha ... You DINOSAUR! :)
And let's not forget the wonderful, bunderful outputs of all those apartment building's INCINERATORS whereupon, the Sanitation department (Department of Street Cleaning (DSC)) would come and LITERALLY "haul your ashes" ... ah, how good we have things these days and NOBODY notices ... we used to take our trash and literally throw it in the woods by the side of the road up here where I am and today, you get fined $500 if a bottle ends up amidst the papers ... while I'm all for it, for those who didn't know the "before" ... what a change in 50 years.
But the "IRT" was ubiquitously known as "filthy" among OUR parents, for better or for worse, for fact or for subtalk. :)
Ah, but the banning of the incinerators was the main reason for the roach & rat problems the city has today.
Good point ... and probably accurate. But hey, nowadays you can notice that fresh Canadian air (kaff kaff) where you wouldn't have years ago. I tell ya, those are two phenoms I don't miss upstate. And like many who have left the city, we managed to bring eggs from the little beasties with us upstate. That winter, we broke a pipe and the house froze. Ended their reign. :)
I remember July 25th very well. We just had moved into our new apartment in the Woodside Housing Project the day before, and I remember reading how the Braves had pummeled the Dodgers that night. The Dodgers wound up winning that Saturday and swept a double-header the following day (Sunday). We were accepted into the middle income apartments and it was just before we were scheduled to put a down payment on a house near Patchogue, Long Island. My brother and I were real disappointed we couldn;t get our own house, but my father promised us it was only temporary. The next year we moved to California.
I moved around that time to my new apt in Van Nuys from Baldwin Hills Calif, while my folks moved toFox Hills to a smaller apt. It was around the end of July
1993 it went to 1.50 from 1.25.
$1.50 in 1995. I was working at Woodhaven/Jamaica at the time. I was pleading with customers there to buy their tokens on Sunday to avoid bedlam on Monday. A lot of people thanked me for it!
Radio Row is now Ground Zero.
#3 West End Jeff
I didain the fact, but I do remember the nickel fare. Also I remember
traveling with Mom to visit cousins in Yonkers. Taking the trolley
at 242nd Van Cortland Park, paid the fare, then when the car reached
city line the Operator walked thru the car with a hand held fare
collector and obtained an additional 5 cents to cross the city line.
The fare may have been ten cents, but they still collected the
extra nickel to egress the city.
;-) Sparky
I vagually remember the 5 cent fare, but do remember the 10 cent fare, and when they changed to tokens in 53. I still have a couple of those someplace around
Once upon a time I would sometimes get a few of those small tokens at work. Somebody found them and wanted to cash them in. I think he value was $.20. I would buy them saying they were worth more. I paid $.30 each for them. At one time the small tokens were used for children's fare at the Transit museum at Court St. I forget the price of the regular token at the time. But for children it was 1/2. So I figured I'd get $.50 or $.60 for it. After I had collected 5, I went down there to cash them in. Unforunately when I did, the turnstiles had changed over to something with AFC. I still have the tokens at home sitting in a jar with most of the other tokens I'ce collected from transit.
Ok guys, I remember the five cent fares. I used to pay it for my Dad when we rode the trains. I thought it was a big deal that I would ante up the nickel. I do remember I used to get twenty-five cents a week allowance. Yes, that was ages ago, but remember a movie cost six cents on matinee Saturdays, a cup of coke was five cents, pop corn the same and an ice cream bar was seven cents. A quarter went a hell of a lot farther back then.
Back in my days as a sub teacher, I used to tell elementary kids that hamburgers at McDonald's used to cost 15 cents. Talk about being shocked!
Well I had a funny way of remembering the price of a token when I was a kid, it worked until fairly rescently. When a token was $.75, the cost of a slice of pizza was $.75 When the token went to $.90, pizza was $.90. The same with $1.00, $1.25. I really haven't payed attention if it was ever true for $1.50, as I hardly ever buy just one slice of pizza now (how much is just one slice?), and buy metro cards for the subway. But it worked when I was a teenager and was watching my pennies more......
STORY about a ride on Amtrak.
Peace,
ANDEE
One little nitpick ... Amtrak does NOT stop at Albany. It stops at Rensselaer in this area. Joe Bruno thought that his decayed little city is more of a garden spot than Albany and MUCH more significant to visitors - while Amtrak DOES go THROUGH Albany, it doesn't stop here.
But yeah, that's the experience, and thanks to CSX, getting TO New York City isn't all that important so one needs to plan on getting there whenever the freight fairy feels the urge. ESCAPING NYC though is usually pretty close to on time.
Glad someone managed to ride *our* subway though even if they got the location of our local stop wrong. :)
Heh....probably he intentionally said Albany instead of Rensselaer. The mere thought of that towns most famous resident makes many of us city folk see red. Bruno=Pussbucket.
Peace,
ANDEE
The train dosen't stop in Albany or Rensselaer. It stops in Albany-Rensselaer. When the station was moved the cities went through a conceptual merger and it is only a matter of time until it becomes official. Other conceptually merged cities are Abseacon-Pleasantville, Dallas-Fort Worth, Hammond-Whitting and Minnipolis-St. Paul.
Ummmm ... Mike old buddy, you need to get to the nearest Betty Ford clinic ... seriously. Albany and Rensselaer is like the Hatfields and the McCoys (and the river is narrow enough to lob grenades) ... there's no merger except in the mind of Joe Bruno ...
And pass that doobie over here. :)
Out side of the actual cities, everyone knows them as Albany-Rensselaer. Train timetables, bus timetables, airline timtables, broshures, forms, maps, etc all refer to Albany-Rensselaer. It is only a matter of time before the cities put aside their differances and become the Albany-Rensselaer Capital Metroplex
"It is only a matter of time before the cities put aside their differances and become the Albany-Rensselaer Capital Metroplex."
Albany and Rensselaer can unify if they want to (or not if they don't) but for God's sake don't let them call it the Metroplex! Bah!! on ANY use of the non-word "metroplex"!!!!
The "Albany" part was usurped and "Rensselaer" although across the Hudson from Albany is not, and will never be combined with Albany. To give you an idea of how BOGUS this whole thing is, the (ahem) "CITY OF Rensselaer" has a total population (2000 census) of 7,761! Only by the grace of Senator Joe is it STILL a city since the qualification for a "city" is a population of 100,000 or more. Even Albany doesn't make the numbers, but is close.
But don't hold your breath waiting for Smallbany to combine with Joe's hosers anytime soon. They may have a new ballpark and a deluxe new train station that hasn't opened yet, but Rensselaer is nowhere and we want no part of it. :)
He's STILL running unopposed. You'd think a city with political interests would have some cash for someone to run against the punk. He ain't done nothing for upstate either, just his own little trailer park county. And they're bleeding jobs too. But he OPENED his personal baseball stadium at YOUR expense. And he's STILL running unopposed!
NYC is $5 billion in the hole, but Bruno opened his personal ball park in HIS NAME a couple of weeks ago ... nice, eh?
How about you run?
I'm being quite serious here. Why wait for another politician to pop up, one who's just slightly less corrupt then this current assbag?
Well, the problem is that Kevin prefers to earn an HONEST living :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. I did 12 years of gubbamint service myself. Enough was enough. Besides, Senator Hairdoo lives across the river in Trailerpark county. I wouldn't be eligible since I'm (fortunately) not in his district.
But yes, I'm MUCH happier now not having to smell the sausage being made daily. :)
At least it's comforting to know that ALL politicans are scum, and not just the ones where I live :-)
Oh, some of ours would feel right at home in Mississippi or Louisiana. In fact, some would scare the good old boys. "New York may have the best crafted laws, but they also have the most juice." That's a quote from a former Senate Majority leader who wore a gawdy loud tie and a green jacket on end of session day. Once upon a time, I actually got paid to sit around the capitol with a camera waiting for that. :)
GA laws are more loopholes than laws. Everything the scum do in office revolves around making sure they profit off of anything and everything passed and proposed. They can't be bothered with trivial things like the well being of the citizens. There's a $2 billion highway being proposed by the governor, which NO ONE supports except the GDOT, and mosts his campgain donors for this November just happen to be land owners close to the proposed highway, who would just happen to make millions off the construction and rising land values if the road gets built. What a concidence! Stories like these appear everyday in our newspapers. I think the voters are finally getting fed up. I hope EVERYONE gets voted out of office.
How'd you sit around like that everyday? If I had to watch the GA legislature everyday, by the end of my first week, I'd bust out the Uzi and take care of business :-)
I'd love to ramble on but this ain't the place. I'll leave it this ay though - I got paid to put up with it, and whether we like it or not, "transit" is a profit center for politicians. That's the reason why I bring up the political angles as often as I do, hoping to make people understand that commuter rail, subways and even Amtrak are POLITICAL entities and ultimately, it's the sausage packers that we need to motivate. As to the corruption, well ... way out of topic for subtalk.
But what we all love and hold dear is constantly under the thumb of politicians and that's where we need to focus to get what we need/want out of mass transit. Know that politicians are chickensheets and when they see citizens bearing pitchforks, it gets their attention. I'd better leave it here.
Well, yesterday I started using up all the vacation and other time I had left towards terminal leave in the NYPD starting 7/31 towards eventual retirement. I will be a civilian on Sept 30th. (Although the guys at work have a pool going as to the exact date I will change my mind!) For the past 21 years I've been using my shield to get on the trains. Before that there were only tokens so I either used tokens or hopped the turnstiles. But in October I will have to buy my first metro card and learn how to use it. I will have to learn the terminology too as I still think to swipe is to steal.
I will also be looking for a job. Although the pension is excellent (that's why I'm retiring) it still isn't enough to pay my Nassau County taxes & mortgage and save for my son's college. I would love a transit related job however NYC Transit is out ((or any job with a NYC or NYS pension) because of the stupid double dipping laws.
I guess you will see me on line more often!!! I mowed the lawn 3 times the past 2 days!!!!
You should apply to become a transit worker or a worker on the MNRR/LIRR. Sort of like a golden years fantacy camp getting paid to do a job you would probably do for free. Even better, you would get an employee pass and still not need to get a Metro-Card.
LIRR/MNCR employees are unfortunately not entitled to free transportation on NYCTA services and vice versa (but this is often skirted around), so even if he were to gain employment with one of the Commuter Railroads, he would not receive a MetroCard.
True.
It seems bizarre, though, since all agencies are part of the same MTA "umbrella." Can't we all just get along?
Gone are the days when RR's would honor each other's pass as a courtesy.
Actually since they are part of the Federal Railroad Retirement Act it is NOT double dipping. However I hear its not too easy to get a job with them. Also Jersey Transit is an option. Too bad operating at Branford is only voluntary, I would move to East Haven if it ever became a paid job!!!
You could try working for a freight railroad. Just kiss any time off for your self goodbye.
Hey good luck with that. I didn't realize you were an officer, thanks for protecting us civilians for all that time.
I can see where "swipe" would be troublesome. How about "slide and ride" instead? :-)
You could always follow the path trod by many retirees in search of extra money and become a Wal-Martian. On second thought, that ain't such a good idea!
A Metro Card is simple to use. You may want to spring for a card holder. I picked one up at the Transit Museum a few years back.
Congratulations and good luck to you on your upcoming retirement.
(Is your lawn THAT long that it had to be mowed 3 times in 2 days? :)
--Mark
May I recommend a funpass?
$4.00, and you can swipe all day at lots of stations, and even practice "dipping" on buses!
--Mark
I mowed the lawn 3 times the past 2 days!!!!
In that case, why don't you come down to New Jersey and mow mine? It hasn't been cut in almost two weeks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do YOU think Broadway express trains traveling to and from Queens should stop at 49th Street?
They do and there's no other way to route them.
Arti
Sorry, I meant in the future, assuming the Q didn't muck up the express tracks by terminating there.
>>They do and there's no other way to route them. <<
This is not true. There are crossovers bewteen 49th and 57th. Back before the first Manhattan Bridge shutdown, the T West End express always ran up Broadway in rush hour and skipped 49th on its way to Astoria. I believe they switch to local before 49th today because the Qs waiting to terminate at 57th often block the more northerly crossover, though for some reason this wasn't a problem back in the day.
For the three months in 1990 that N trains ran express, they stopped at 49th. Nothing was blocking the express tracks at 57th.
Those are the facts. Facts don't seem to matter here. I'm looking for your opinion, mister.
You heard my opinion yesterday. I'm content here with presenting the facts and allowing others to give their opinions.
IIRC when the N was first extended to Continental Ave. in the mid-70s, it skipped 49th n/b when running express, switching over to the local track just before 57th St.
though for some reason this wasn't a problem back in the day.
From the time that Brighton Express trains started running through to Astoria (around 1955) until Chrystie St opened in 1967, having the Queens express trains stop at 49th (using the crossovers just north of 34th St. station) was the accepted practice.
It started because it was a year or two later that the West End and Sea Beach expresses were extended beyond Times Square to 57th St., but the practice was maintained:
1. Because of the congestion factors noted.
2. Due to the heavy passenger boardings/alightings at 49th St.
-- Ed Sachs
I rode the T many times and it always skipped 49th St during the AM and PM rush in both directions. The T used the crossovers south of 57th St. You also had the N and Q terminating at 57th.
It should because many people from Queens get off at 49 St.
It shouldn't because there's a crossover south of 57 St. that allows it to go onto the express track.
Somewhat close to the topic....why was the crossover before 57 St. station southbound removed but northbound remains?
=)
From the perspective of each of the following three people, how would YOU describe your support of the construction of the 2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands? And which one of the three arguments do you feel the most strongly about?
1) Railfan
2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
From the perspective of each of the following three people, how would YOU describe your support of the construction of the 2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands?
1) Railfan
If connected to Nassau Street, it would finally "complete" the BMT by providing an East Side line for it.
2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
No good, since the the East Side is already built out, it won't enable any more taxpaying development to help pay for it (unlike the Flushing Line extension to the West Side).
3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
Yeah, but we built and moved into all those buildings on the East Side because the City tore down the Els and promised a replacement subway. Now we're stuck paying billions in taxes, and either squeezing on the Lex or crawling on the M15 bus!
If you aren't going to build the Second Avenue, why don't you promise the Flushing Line extension, have developers build buidings and companies and residents move in, and then not build it, forcing them to walk 1/2 mile to 8th Avenue!
Thanks for answering. Hopefully more people will excercise their right to somewhat free speech in this forum and answer my questions :)
From the perspective of each of the following three people, how would YOU describe your support of the construction of the 2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands?
2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
No good, since the East Side is already built out, it won't enable any more taxpaying development to help pay for it (unlike the Flushing Line extension to the West Side).
It could encourage the replacement of East Side residential development by commercial development. At least that's the case from a strictly economic perspective; politically, of course, any wholesale displacement of residents would go over about as well as an al-Qaeda rally at FDNY headquarters. So I'd have to agree that the line wouldn't do much for the taxpayers.
A Second Avenue line might bring some indirect economic/tax base benefits, however. If it were built within budget and in a reasonable time frame, the project might send the message to business leaders that New York is the sort of place that can get things done, that it has the sort of can-do spirit usually associated with Sunbelt cities. That could, in theory at least, make NYC more attractive to businesses and hence will boost the tax and employment bases. The city's reputation as a bureaucratic morass where nothing gets done almost certainly has hindered its competitiveness.
"2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
No good, since the the East Side is already built out, it won't enable any more taxpaying development to help pay for it (unlike the Flushing Line extension to the West Side)."
Obviously wrong.
Property values will increase markedly near subway stations. Maybe not to the extent that they would in "virgin territory" but substantially nonetheless. New York never really finishes redeveloping, and the fact that the East Side is "built out" doesn't mean further redevelopment won't occur. It all depends on how much more desirable those areas become. The effect will be measurably positive, the question becomes magnitude.
"Property values will increase markedly near subway stations."
Maybe, maybe not. We are talking the UES after all, where 5th, Park, and East End have the highest property values because they are quiet peaceful avenues compared to Lex and 2nd.
I've never heard anyone say they'd love to live on the UES if only the subway service was less crowded.
( 2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
No good, since the the East Side is already built out, it won't enable any more taxpaying development to help pay for it (unlike
the Flushing Line extension to the West Side).")
"Obviously wrong."
You are disagreeing with the Mayor, the former Mayor, and the Director of Strategic Planning at City Planning, not with me. They say that the development spurred by the Second Avenue can't pay for it, unlike the Flushing Line. I say that the development caused by the PROMISE of the SAS has already paid for it many times over, and now the MTA ought to deliver.
There are, of course, plenty of development sites for high tax luxury housing in East Harlen and the Lower East Side. Politically, however, the less said about this the better.
"You are disagreeing with the Mayor, the former Mayor, and the Director of Strategic Planning at City Planning, not with me. They say that the development spurred by the Second Avenue can't pay for it, unlike the Flushing Line."
No, I'm not. I never said that the Second Avenue subway would spur sufficient development on the East Side to pay for itself (though development will occur and rents will rise - look at every study ever commissioned on the subject). That is not a legitimate reason to oppose it.
Bloomberg opposes it in part because he wants to pursue the 7 extension to Javits first - and he can't prove that this extension will pay for itself through development either (but I agree that this new subway extension should also be built. I think it's a great idea).
As to the previous Mayor, he said a lot of things.
You ended up misinterpreting what I said, and taking city politicians' remarks out of context.
Bloomberg opposes it (SAS) in part because he wants to pursue the 7 extension to Javits first - and he can't prove that this extension will pay for itself through development either
I'm skeptical too. You could have the best imaginable transit connections to the Javits Center, but that won't change the fact that the facility is just too small for today's mega-conventions. Any extension of the 7 should be coordinated with a significant expansion of the Javits Center.
I suppose the 7 extension could spur more development along the western end of 42nd and adjacent streets, but it looks as if the area has become more heavily developed in recent years even without decent subway access.
My opinion: the 7 extension may not be a wholly bad idea, but it doesn't come close to the SAS in priority terms.
Agreed.
Construction of a 7 extension will spur expansion of Javits and more development on the far west side.
SAS comes first, though.
The decision of the U.S. Olympic Committee on the 2012 Olympic site selection, and of the IOC on the final decision will probably end up being the deciding factor in the 7 extension west.
If they both go for New York and the West Side Olympic Stadium plan, than the 7 extension west becomes the major priority for the MTA (and unlike any other new subway project, this one would come with a manditory don't-embarrass-the-politicians-and-business-leaders deadline of Spring, 2012).
If the USOC turns down New York (they seemed impressed with their visit on Monday according to the Daily News, but owner Mort Zuckerman stands to be a big winner if the West Side site is picked, so there may be some hype here), or if the IOC rejects the bid (given Europe's attitude towards the U.S. right now, a better possibility), then the focus would shift away from the 7 extension and hopefully to the SAS project.
The factors you mention are certainly important.
1) Railfan
It would be nice to see a new subway line open In New York
3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
Getting people off the 4, 5 and 6 is good enough reason
Everyone's commenting on an abstract line, not on specifically "2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands" (i.e., a two-track line with no provision for future expansion to four-track local-express service). Anyone?
DUMB. Four Tracks are Needed, And the Express needs to be extended north of 125th Street to Fordham University via THIRD AVENUE!
The Local needs to turn west on 125th Street and end at the HUDSON RIVER!
Elias
But should the entire project be cancelled because of that?
My take is that it was designed wrong. Given the funding available, it should have been designed as a two-track line squished under half of 2nd Avenue, with the other half left vacant in case more funding becomes available later to build another pair of tracks. Stations should have been places where we would ultimately want stations on a four-track line, or some subset of them -- the ones in the current plan are too far for adequate local coverage but too close to have additional local stations inserted.
Getting back to the question I raised, I don't know. On the one hand, we need something. On the other, shouldn't we put the money we have now in the bank and save up for what we really need?
Four Tracks is the best, but if it is not doable, I'd do two tracks. But I'd be DAMN SURE to have a provision for extending the line along 125 to the Hudson River, AND for continuing the Subway up Third Avenue to Fordham.
Given the station spacing on the proposed 2nd Avenue line I would not be all that upset if it remained a 2 track line with all trains making all stops.
Just get the dang thin in and MAKE IT GO!
Elias
"My take is that it was designed wrong. Given the funding available, it should have been designed as a two-track line squished under half of 2nd Avenue, with the other half left vacant in case more funding becomes available later to build another pair of tracks. Stations should have been places where we would ultimately want stations on a four-track line, or some subset of them -- the ones in the current plan are too far for adequate local coverage but too close to have additional local stations inserted."
OK. To that end I would propose a double-deck design, with platforms on one side only. Upper level northbound, lower level southbound. Connecting it to the 63rd St bellmouths would take a little doing, but that's why chief engineers make the big bucks.
When money appears for a third and fourth tracks, another double-stack would be added, with platforms on the other side. Then the direction of travel would be rearranged.
All these stations would be express stations. If additional local stops were needed, they would be upper-level platforms. Similar to how parts of the Lex work now.
With all the talk about the 2nd Ave subway taking the crush off the Lexington Ave Subway, Where could I transfer from one to the other in case a train breaks down on one?
125th Street is the only common station planned (at present).
No other transfer point?
Not on the part to be constructed.
If only the "stubway" is built, then the trains will go west at 63rd and take either the 6th Avenue or 7th Avenue/Broadway line downtown. The transfer point from the 6th Avenue would be Bleecker Street (I understand it will become a full transfer point); from the 7th Avenue/Broadway line it would be 14th Street.
If the Second Avenue line goes south beyond 63rd, it is far east of Lexington until it gets far downtown -- I didn't check the plans for that.
Well, in a pinch, you could get out, walk two blocks and hop on the other service to complete your trip.
What makes this easier is that 2nd Av subway service' stations will all have escalators and elevators. By the time this new subway opens, a lot more Lex stations will have them too.
Ron's idea makes sense. By the time the subway opens, you'll have to use a metrocard anyways. -Nick
Not all MetroCards are unlimited.
If they decide on the Nassau STreet alignment, I guess there will be the current connection at Cahambers St-Brooklyn Bridge. I think Nassau will be the best choice, as the line basically connects with every other line already there at almost each of it's stations.
53st LEX (E,V) cab be connected. I think you can put one at GCT, 3rd avenue on L line and some more downtown.
Do a doublestack as exactly on the LEX. Leave the bottom express empty and the top as local.
Agreed, but I am assuming only half of the double stack can be built at a time. Thus the west (or East) doublestack gets built first as described above, and then the other half when budget permits.
They will never get around to building the other stack. Build a four track line and get it done right the first time.
OK. Do you have your checkbook handy?
Right, do want a novelty subway/ no one will use it if it has only locals. And PREY that it won't have proprietary eqipment.
"And PREY that it won't have proprietary eqipment. "The LION will get your prey!
Pray tell, it will NOT have propritary equipment because it will exchange with the Queensboro at 63rd and with The Broadway also at 63rd, and probably extend into Brooklyn via Nassau, or mayve the bridge via Christie.
Now My MYRTLE AVENUE EXPRESS *will* have propritary equipment, as it will have speeds of upto 75mph on its NON STOP EXPRESS RUN between Jamaica Center and Downtown Brooklyn! : )
Elias
"Given the funding available, it should have been designed as a two-track line squished under half of 2nd Avenue, with the other half left vacant in case more funding becomes available later to build another pair of tracks."
There isn't enough room under Second Avenue for a four track alignment.
You have a conflict with the Second Avenue sewer main that runs up to 111th Street. While the tunnel will be of TBM construction, the bore is not that deep to avoid foundations, other subsurface utilities, and piles. The additional cost would be substantial and might preclude any construction.
I agree that provisions for expansion to a four track alignment should be provided. However, it would have to be an over-under approach similar to the uptown Lexington Avenue line.
You could build certain stations, designated as express stations, with an unused lower level.
MATT-2AV
There isn't enough room under Second Avenue for a four track alignment.
It's a lot wider than Broadway between 17th and 34th, yet the BMT managed to fit a four-track line there.
You could build certain stations, designated as express stations, with an unused lower level.
But the currently planned stations are too far apart to make for good local stations on a four-track line.
Its just a different era.
The tunnels will be of TBM construction, making the diameter wider than the on-center spacing of columns in previous cut-and-cover four pralell track alignments.
Local residents are far less willing to put up with the construction, noise, and disturbance associated with underpinning their buildings.
Codes have certainly changed, although I'm not sure to what extent this would affect shoring, underpining, etc.
Second Avenue must remain in service.
Subsurface utilities occupy the eastern half of the avenue in the uptown region that, mile per mile, may be almost as costly to relocate as building new tunnel.
So from sidewalk to sidewalk there's more room, and yes, a cut-and-cover four track tunnel would fit, but times have changed, and there's a need to do this as efficiently as possible.
MATT-2AV
Have the Utility companies reroute it or they will lose their franchises. You can also say the it is for Utility replacement so you will have new, clean, better, versitile, All wheel drive utilitys.
"Have the Utility companies reroute it or they will lose their franchises. "
Utilities such as Power, Telephone and Cable are not the problem, they can be moved very easily.
The Water Mains are more of a problem, but the biggest utility (outside of the suybway itself) is the sewer line. And if you thing the sewer company is worried you are full of sewer efluent.
Elias
Damn, I smell alot of *HIT. Litteraly.
No, seriously, the sewer main that runs up second avenue to 111th street, where it makes a sharp turn to the east, is such an obstacle that it literally has forced the two track alignment over to the western side of the avenue in the uptown region.
Sewer mains, which are fragile and must be maintained in service for obvious reasons, are extremely difficult to move. Sewer mains such as this aren't pressure conduits, and operate by gravity flow.
The NYC Bureau of Sewers maintains a perimeter around their mains so that you cannot build within a certain distance on, around, or under them. Many are on piles as well, making it difficult to excavate under the bottom of the main.
Water mains are relatively easier to relocate because they are pressure conduits, and gravity flow need not be maintained.
MATT-2AV
If the sewermain had to be moved, the new line would have to be built first, and then each customer switched over to it. Eventually, even sewer mains have to be replaced.
I saw the main on 31st Street: It was deep, lined with bricks, had water flowing throught it like a river, and this was only a branch line on 31st St. Imagine what a main must look like as it heads down? second avenue to the treatment plant.
Sewers can and do have lift stations. (A Lift Station in Fargo was recently named for Dave Barry who had peeved the city in a recent column... He was here for the dedication, so apparently all was in good fun.) to raise the efluent to the aflunet or whatever level is required for it to be useful to the politicians.
Elais
I saw the [sewer] main on 31st Street: It was deep, lined with bricks, had water flowing throught it like a river
Trust me, it wasn't water that was flowing.
"If the sewermain had to be moved, the new line would have to be built first, and then each customer switched over to it. Eventually, even sewer mains have to be replaced."
And it is that very process that would be extremely costly and time consuming.
The sewer cannot simply be placed anywhere. Second avenue presents a narrow, three-dimensional corridor. The subway and other utilities occupy a substantial portion of that. So does the existing sewer main which must be kept in service. Open channel, quiescent gravity flow must be maintained, thus restricting the vertical placement. There is no room along the way for a lift station, plus the extreme NIMBY objection in such a congested area as the Upper East.
The sewer actually doesn't flow directly to a treatment facility. Instead, it makes a sharp turn to the east at 111th street and flows to the Manhattan pump station. The pump station is disguised as a beige, 2-3 story brick building, adjacent to the FDR. Flags hang outside facing the river, and an odor will greet you on certain high flow days. You will notice a clustering of manholes in the FDR outside the building. This pump station sends the flow, via a force main located at elevation -380, to Wards Island. There is a corresponding structure in the Bronx, which you can find by traveling along a line exactly 90 degrees to the Manhattan force main uptake on Wards Island.
The sewer under second avenue could not be made much deeper, as the pumps at the Manhattan Pump Station have a limitted lift, and it is physically impossible to draw up fluid more than 34 ft.
MATT-2AV
"The sewer under second avenue could not be made much deeper, as the pumps at the Manhattan Pump Station have a limitted lift, and it is physically impossible to draw up fluid more than 34 ft. "
So, the NIMBYs are correct, the project *is* full of s#it?
: ) Elias
If the sewer main for the whole East Side is on Second, and that is the utility that is most difficult to move, perhaps it would be better to put the subway on 3rd, at least south of 59th Street.
Or 1st.
There was a major push in the late 60s to put it under 1st Ave, on the grounds that this would better serve the majority of riders. For most of Manhattan from 125th down to Houston and below, there is quite a bit of territory east of 1st Ave, so 1st Ave would better "split the difference" between Lex and the river.
I never understood why this was rejected. It seemed so logical.
For the same reason the 63rd St line is under 63rd and not 64th - Rockefeller University and other research institutions complained that their instruments would suffer from vibrations due to construction.
Recall that this was back in the days of cut and cover and mine-and blast.
perhaps it would be better to put the subway on 3rd, at least south of 59th Street.
Mind reader!
3rd Av would also have much better connections to other lines - hook up to 63rd St, then stations at 57th-60th Sts (N)(R)(W)(4)(5)(6) [3 tracks, 2 island platforms], 50th-53rd Sts (E)(V)(6), 42nd St (4)(5)(6)(7)<7>(S), 32nd-34th Sts, 23rd-25th Sts, 14th-16th Sts (L), Cooper Square (5th-7th Sts), Delancey St (J)(M)(Z), then hook up to the North Side of the Manny B.
Turn the Chrystie St Line into a terminal, abandoning Grand St and building a new station with a center platform at Delancey St, with a X-crossover just North of it.
The following 6th Avenue Services would have modified Southern Terminals:
(B) Delancey St
(D) Coney Island (via Culver)
[(F) transferred to 3rd Avenue Line]
(V) 2nd Av (as previous)
The 3rd Avenue Line would have two services:
(F) Hillside - Queens Express - 3rd Av - Brighton Local - Coney Island
(T) 57th-60th Sts - 3rd Av - West End - Coney Island
Of course since the sewer issue has already been taken care of (the Second Av subway already partly exists in segments which will be kepyt and used by the TA, and the EIS have taken utilities into account) this discussion is moot.
The ideas brought up about 3rd Av are interesting.
Subsurface utilities occupy the eastern half of the avenue in the uptown region that, mile per mile, may be almost as costly to relocate as building new tunnel.
I believe that Second Avenue has fewer underground utility lines than the other main thoroughfares, which was intended to make it easier to build the subway. Of course, the city's full of water and maybe sewer lines that pre-date the first SAS proposals in the 1920's, and undoubtedly there are some under Second Avenue.
Don't forget that some utility relocation was accomplished in the 1970's when the tunnel segments for the 2nd Av line were built.
That work need not be repeated.
...but it was a great point and I hate to be a nay-sayer.
So you add additional local stations in between.
The truth, like all things in life, lies somewhere in between.
MATT-2AV
"From the perspective of each of the following three people, how would YOU describe your support of the construction of the 2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands? And which one of the three arguments do you feel the most strongly about?
1) Railfan
It would be very entertaining to witness the construction of a beneficial new line in Manhattan.
Some may object to the fact that the subway will be of TBM construction with no express tracks. I have always maintained that four tracks are better than two tracks, but two tracks are better than no tracks.
2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
I am an East Side IRT commuter, so there is a conflict of interest as my quality of life would improve with construction of the new subway.
Many object to construction because it won't benefit them directly. If we were an anarchistic confederacy of individuals and not a society, then this would be warranted.
3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
The crush loading on the Lexington Avenue lines is unacceptable. No other line: a) is as overcrowded, b) has less capacity for expansion of service, and c) benefits so many.
Hence the reason that the second avenue subway is NYCT's marquis project -- no other project receives as much attention.
Extension of the cross-town IRT, which I also support, would be second.
MATT-2AV
"Many object to construction because it won't benefit them directly."
Many from outside New York perhaps. There is virtually no opposition of any kind to this subway within the city. In fact, most NYC taxpayers overwhelmingly endorse it.
""Many object to construction because it won't benefit them directly."
Many from outside New York perhaps. "
Actually, improvements within a city, such as New York, do affect us (in North Dakota) directly!
If it brings better prosperity to the city it lowers welfare rolls, it allows prosperity, to buy the food we grow and the beef we raise. There will be more of a market for our wind, so we can package it up as electricity and ship it to you on a wire.
Our prosperity is tied to people buying the things we grow! If you can't pay top dollar for our nice wheat, then we will have to ship it overseas for the best price we can get for it.
You see, prosperity is a shared thing. You get good jobs, we sell more food, we can buy more tractors, detroit can buy more food. We grow as a nation, or we go down the tubes as a nation.
Elias
"You see, prosperity is a shared thing..."
I like that quote.
MATT-2AV
I like that! I hope your neighbors feel the same way.
Actually... We send Republicans to the Statehouse to keep our taxes down...
And Democrats to Washington to get all we can out of them!
: ( Elias
Interesting combination....
"Interesting combination.... "
Yes, especially considering that North Dakota (especially from the 30s to the 50s) was the most SOCIALIST state in the union.
We still have and operate a state owned flour mill, and a state owned bank.
Elias
>We send ... Democrats to Washington to get all we can out of them!
If that's true, thank you. (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
1) The Railfans on this board have described that accurately.
2) NYC Taxpayer - overwhelming support. NYS taxpayer - some hostility if I'm from upstate; strongly supportive in the city, Westchester and Long Island.
3) Commuter - need you ask?
> 1) Railfan
As a railfan, I would be all for a new Subway line to explore!
> 2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
I would be glad that my taxes would be going to something useful.
> 3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
It would be extremely useful. I'm all for it.
Naturally, I feel most strongly as a Subway rider.
- Lyle Goldman
Good answers!
Thank you.
- Lyle Goldman
Well as a railfan myself it is always a pleasure to see a new train line up and running, means one has to joyride. As an employee it means yet another interesting line to work on and see from an insider's view, and interesting to see what equipment will be used for it. As a taxpayer it will be money well spent if the line is built in it's entirety, not as a stub running along 2nd Avenue only from 60th Street (joining up with the N,R lines) or 63rd (F) to 125th Street. As a commuter view as long as the line it completely built from Uptown to Downtown, it will be a big alternative to the crunch time on board the Lex Line. As for 4 tracks I think they should make it 4 tracks because with only 2, and the delays caused by people soon to pack on this new line's trains, the 2 tracks will mean no way around delays, and it won't end up being any better than the Lex line as far as being a load reliever. And 2nd Avenue line riders will have the option, of course, of having express and local service to choose from if the line is 4-tracked. Well right now let's see what happens whenever they decide to resume the construction work, then let's view what is built and how eventually it is run. It's too early to call anything.
At 10:00 PM tonight I heard a report on ABC radio about an Amtrak train hitting a car at a grade crossing. I think the report said that it was somewhere in Florida.
If this had been a PhilTrak train, 20 people would now be dead.
If this had been a plane, all the people would be dead now.
Planes don't hit cars at grade crossings.
Better was the story out of (Alabama?) where the Darwin candidate was so involved in her cell phone conversation, she drove THROUGH the lowered gate before her unceremonious creaming.
-Hank
Yes; it was Arkansas and she was doing 75 mph when she smashed through the crossing gate and the Texas Eagle hit her broadside in the driver's door. I wondered whether the person she was talking to on the phone heard the train whistling for the crossing before the conversation abruptly ended.
What gets me though, especially with respect to the title of this thread is how SOMEHOW, it's the TRAIN'S fault. The words "Amtrak accident" just suggests that somehow Amtrak did it ... that's what always gets my goat. I'm curious as to how it affects others and causes the "Darwin" comments ... knowing many who have greased someone who many of us think "deserved it" such is NOT the way the poor sap in the cab takes it, and has to deal with it for the rest of their lives while in the meantime, the lawyers SUE the "driver" of the "death train." Just ain't right.
I know barbs have been traded here and there when rail people get angry that some dumb moron put themselves into the situation in the first place, knowing the realities on all sides and those who feel that every life is precious, ESPECIALLY if they're a victim of something, even if it's their own neglect that got them killed.
Maybe it's time to have this issue out amongst ourselves, but the title REALLY got my goat. It suggests that AMTRACK is somehow at fault for what happened, and just like the clueless media who constantly expell "TRAIN hits car" without ever asking "What the HELL was that car doing there in the FIRST place?" ...
See where I'm coming from here? Why is this AMTRACK'S fault?
Because it is AMTRAK's "fault" that a stalled car in a crossing got smashed. The Train Operator should have seen 2 miles down the road to see a car stalled in a crossing and slowed down to avoid a collision. It doesn't matter if the car went around the flashing barricades to cross before the train came and stalled halfway thru. The Train Operator should have seen it ahead and slowed down in time.
I know as well as you it is not that way. But a defense attorney will say someting like that in his opening remarks in court assuming it wasn't settled beforehand.
Consider there was a woman in another thread who won $14 Million from TA because she was hit by a subway train while supposively sleeping on the roadbed in the tunnel. It doesn't matter she shouldn't have been there on the roadbed in the first place. She was hit by a train. It doesn't matter if she doesn't remember how she got there, or why she was there. She was hit by a train and she should get the money. It doesn't matter if 30% of the incident was her fault. $9 Million is still a good piece of change. She was hit by a train and she should get the money.
Juries these days are easily swayed by emotional arguements from defense attorneys and figure AMTRAK and TA are always somehow at fault for anything that happens to a customer. And that they have money coming out of their wazoos and can easily part with a few million dollars with no trouble.
Excuse me, I don't feel too good. If I throw up on the platform, I should be $50,000 easily
I'll find in your favor. Dunno about the other 11 ... but yeah, this whole "scene" makes me ill. I'm ALL in favor of an ACTUAL victim, who through no fault of their own, has a piano drop on their head, but when a railroad gets blamed for someone who CLEARLY violated the laws of trespass get a huge cash reward, then I feel like grabbing for my gun. Whoops, don't have one. But you get the point.
I *wish* the railroads could countersue for trespass and damage to equipment, emotional pain and anguish for the crew and SCREW the morons out of their future income to pay off the INNOCENT in their stupidity for what the moron in a car or the moron who lays down on the tracks, or subway surfs and falls off the tail car cost the innocent CREW who had to live the rest of their lives with the stupidity of those who taunt Darwin and think they'll elude it all.
Amtrak may have its problems, but the wording of this additional unjustified crucifixion of the route of the pointless arrow just irks the crap out of me. It'd be different if the BLE brother was drunk, stupid or otherwise responsible for what happened. There's been some of those (Union Sq wreck as an example) but most of these "train hits X" things are NOT the BLE brother or sister's fault. THAT bothers me.
By the way, anyone want to venture a guess as to WHY Amtrak is strapped for cash? Oh no, let's not go THERE ... CSX has bad track? Guess who has to pay?
We do because Amtrak does, and Amtrak gets their money from us (via the warmongers [aka Congress] and via our paying their fares)
And CSX gets priority when THEIR trains are on the ROW. Screw 'em....passengers come first, fork the cargo.
Sorry...I've had a bad day, and I'm sitting in a 115 degree room w/o AC. And I still have to goto work for chrissakes...
Stuart
Disgruntled Paralegal
Because Amtrak belongs to the feds, and the feds have deep pockets for the accident victims. I wish I could be on the jury for this retard. Of course, I'd be knocked of in voir dire.
-Hank
I like this post
I agree with you that the title of this thread is a poor one. To be honest, I could not think of how to word it so that the real perp is clearly shown to be the culprit. Any suggestions for future situations? Maybe we can develop a standard title that will be picked up by the media and put the blame where it belongs.
Car blocked off train, Train got some damage from car, passengers not hurt on train.
Car Loses Race to Grade Crossing
That make people feel the pain of the car.
Car Loses Race to Grade Crossing
Actually, it was a tie.
How about Phyrric Victory, since the car must have been on the crossing before the train arrived there, right? Unless they impacted corner to corner.
"Grade crossing fatality" might be a start. Then the explanation of what the moron(s) did to get themselves greased perhaps ... don't want to make this "politically correct" but "Amtrack accident" does suggest that Amtrak did something untoward ...
I have to agree. First off, if the train was going at a relatively high speed...it MIGHT take longer than 2 miles to completely stop, even in BIE, okay....so the car and the dumb driver would have been totalled and dead anyway. Case *!@#$ closed.
Stuart
Very disgruntled paralegal.
How bout just, "Car Tresspassing, struck by train?" The railroads were, in all likelihood there before the road, and as such shouldn't the railroad only allow the cars to cross when the gates are up? Kinda like an unwritten contract, the railroad basically owns the crossing, but allows us to use it until such time as they need it. The gates being down, the lights flashing, or the horn blowing are all signs that the railroad now needs the crossing, and moving yourself onto the railroad, in a vehicle or as a pedestrian, is trespassing.
If somebody is hit, the railroad should say, "Bull!@#$, he was trespassing, tell him to pay his own bills," and go on with it's business, no more of this "Evil Death Train" that the media seems to be enamored to, if you are on the tracks when you can see a train, you are clearly in the wrong, and it is no different from running a red light.
Sadly the railroads will never grow a backbone and push back at the lowly trial lawyers that are slowly bleeding them dry, "victims" of such incidents will continue to recieve compensation from the railroads, merely because the railroad has "Deep Pockets," yeah sure there may be money there, but do they ever stop and think that maybe that money might be better spent on improving the right of way, perhaps lowering the transportation costs of a given item? No, those people are filled with nothing but greed, shortminded and simple, they let their emotions overcome them and strie out at whoever was to blame (other than themselves), there should be laws against this kind of garbage, but as I said, there will never be.
"Struk by train" makes the train seem bad.
Actually, in this incident, wasn't the grade crossing unprotected?
Does unprotected mean no gates, or no gates and no flashing lights?
Yup. Crossbucks only.
Amtrak doesn't own an INCH of track down in Florryduh ... it's CSX land, home of the "I ain't gonna pay a lot for this intersection" ... ain't AMTRAK'S fault. CSX has a LOT of unprotecteds. Much cheaper that way.
Florida DOT decides what level of protection is appropriate for each grade crossing. The one in question was in the category of anticipating one collision every 16 years, so nothing more than crossbucks ("STOP LOOK AND LISTEN") was warranted based on their cost/benefit analysis.
Out here BNSF removed many such crossings (many private crossings... ie farm or tractor roads) Some were removed, and the farmer might have to make a 5 mile round trip to a county road in order to cross from one field to another.
One county road was relocated by the Railroad because the road was in the way of a grain shipping point, and they did not want to break up the trains to keep the road open. You can still use the original road if you want to, but the railroad is under no obligation to keep the crossing clear, and is free to park a 100 car grain train across it all day long if they want.
CROSSBUCKS *are* protection. They tell you "Watch your dumb ass, 'cause a train might be coming!"
We have had kids run through a lowered gate, and right into the side of a moving train.
Elias
It's NOT AMTRAK's fault either way because motorists must give ROW to trains at grade crossings anyway. Now why do people ignore these simple rules of the railroad?
Unless if the engineer did not blow his horn, then it's not entirely AMTRAK's fault.
The engineer can blow his horn till hell frezes over, cars with closed windows, airconditioning, and thumping LOUD music...
NOT TO MENTION HE FACT THAT SHE WAS GABBING ON A CELL PHONE!
render the horn sound ineffective.
What is needed is those retractable steel barriers (protected with flashing lights and submarine klaxons) that they use in federal buildings. Raise that sucker before the train comes and just let them slam into that!
Elias
I did see a crossing arm with a steel jacket (like a pipe) with concrete and rebar in it. On a test a pickup drove into it at 60 mph and it bounced back not getting on the track.
Great idea, but who pays for it. CSX won't, Amtrak has $$ worries (see various Dave Gunn threads), states aren't gonna, I suspect BNSF won't either.
Suggested title for Media: "Driver ignores warnings, is hit by train."
Happy Brithday USA!!!!!!
I've been thinking about it, and I don't thing that they could cost much more than conventional crossing gates. Heck it would cost the state much much more if they had to build overpasses.
Elias
Planes hit flocks of gease. There is also a growing problem of crashes due to poor traffic control on the runways and taxiways. Many taxing planes cross the runways at grade and there are little or no controls to prevent catestrophic acctidents.
The 'catastophic' has occured only once (Tenefrie). Most runway accidents kill no one.
It wasn't a pretty sight
dang, color?
There are a dozen places on the net with 'after' shots of the carnage. The worst ever airliner accident (deaths), worst ground accident (death, cost), and worst airliner collision (death, cost).
In case you couldn't infer from the drawing, a KLM 747 ignored or misunderstood instructions from the tower, and attempted to take off with a PanAm 747 directly in its path. The collision killed more than 500 people.
-Hank
It does not take mile to stop an airplane taxiing on the apron.
Elias
From AP
ORLANDO - A New York-bound Amtrak train hit a car at an unguarded crossing Monday, killing two people in the car.
No one aboard the Silver Meteor No. 98 was hurt when it hit the car about five miles south of Orlando, and the train didn't derail, said Lt. Chuck Williams, a spokesman for the Florida Highway Patrol.
Three people were in the car. Their identities weren't immediately released.
The train's last stop was in Kissimmee, about 10 miles south of Orlando. The train was heading to New York from Miami.
Orange County Fire Rescue said 126 people were on board, but Amtrak spokeswoman Kathleen Cantillon said there were 129 on board. She said the number was tentative, and she didn't know the breakdown between passengers and crew.
(Note: Three in car, two killed. What happen to third one? Why does the number of passengers on the train matter? What about the engineer? Was he OK? Was he able to continue the run?)
No, the engineer can't continue the run. Federal rules require drug and alcohol tests. He gets a few days off with pay, and if he desires, counseling.
-Hank
Whichever tower controls the interlocking at 96th has been having a field day sending SB 2's down the express. While waiting for a NB local at 72nd at about 11:30 this morning, I saw a 2 followed by a 3 followed by a 2 on the SB express track (is that a real live battery run?), with a 1 on the SB local somewhere in the middle. Then this evening (around 7:30, after rush hour) I was on a SB 2 from the Bronx that came into 96th on the express track. As usual, no express was switched to the local track to fill in for the local that ran on the express track.
Every map released by the TA since 9/19/01 and all the updated station signage treats the 2 as a local. It obviously isn't a local in the mind of the TW/O's, and they're the ones who control where the trains actually go. The maps, signs, and schedules should be updated to reflect the reality. Then there's at least an inkling of a chance that the scheduling guys in Brooklyn will eventually notice how dismal the service per capita on the local really is.
The number of scheduled locals on the line I've seen go express in the past 24 hours exceeds the number of scheduled expresses on the line I've seen go local in the past 24 years, barring GO's and emergency reroutes (in either direction).
I feel your pain, fellow West Side IRT'er. Cry if you have to. It is healthy to let it out.
>>>It obviously isn't a local in the mind of the TW/O's, and they're the ones who control where the trains actually go.<<<
TW/Os do not control where trains go. They only do what they're told. Train Distpatchers and Ass't Train Distpatchers make the decisions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for that ... such was always the reality. Back in the '70's when marker lights ***OR*** that bright orange, purple, robin's egg blue or navy LETTER that you could see from two miles away before they shrunk the signage on the point of subway cars, the tower operator always held the MOTORMAN responsible if they got a bad route.
Why? Because the motorman was responsible for setting the proper "cab side and opposite" lenses. If the motorman gave them wrong, you'd get what you SIGNED for on lead cars with markers only - and they'd grab the lead and/or tail car numbers as you blew past their bay window and where you were going to cover their butts. If you "got" a wrong lineup, they had your markers recorded. It was easier for the tower operators in the days of FULL window-sized COLORED route signs in the "spaghetti colors" ... they could spot you even farther off. If you had markers that didn't match an available route at the upcoming homeball, they'd drop the ball on you and you'd better have a good explanation as to who you were and why you had "foreign markers."
That's why years ago, the FIRST thing a motorman did when boarding was drop the panel and CHECK the glasses first, THEN the rollsign. Then we'd open the cab and setup. Trainmasters could overrule the tower operators and send a train to where no train has gone before, but the tower operator's job has always been "spot the train, yank the levers" ... that's it. That's also why today still, no possibility of a wrong lineup and why wrong lineups are never GIVEN, they're taken.
Just figured I'd fill in the history for that rule since there's probably many these days who never saw and appreciated what a simple and RELIABLE method the TA once worked within. Another reason why I'm dumbfounded by how the system works THESE days. Once upon a time, we were ALL in the SAME army and we all watched out for one another and had simple, effective means of keeping the railroad running. Agggh.
I wonder what Frank Corral would be thinking today. He'd probably be calling everybody sissies and say they don't know how to run a railroad.
Heh. There are times I'd be inclined to agree. But it isn't like the folks in there now aren't TRYING to keep the tradition of running a railroad going ... too many chefs nowadays and too many study groups and lawyers ...
Thanks for the correction. I learn something new every day. Where are the TD's physically located? Do they interact at all with the public?
TDs and ATDs are usually right there in the tower, not far from the TW/Os.
Peace,
ANDEE
Which explains why I got them confused.
Do they mind if random strangers wander on up and knock on the door to discuss train service?
Which tower controls that interlocking? The one at 96th itself?
>>>Do they mind if random strangers wander on up and knock on the door to discuss train service?<<<
Generally not, it depends on the individual and how busy they are.
>>>Which tower controls that interlocking? The one at 96th itself?<<<
I am not familiar enough with the west side IRT to answer that question.
Peace,
ANDEE
Depends. If there seems to be people working at 96 St Tower, then they are controlling it in all likelihood. If no one's home, it is being controlled by Times Sq.
Like, I mentioned in a previous post, something must have somewhere in the Bx that caused those two 2 trains to go express. 96St controls that interlocking during the day, Times Square fills in on the midnights. Trust me, TD/ATD dont send trains down the express to spite/hurt people.
No, the one I was riding in the evening was held up to let a 3 slip in at 135th, and then we got to 96th as a 1 was approaching, so we were send express. (The C/R even announced that we'd be going local and then had to correct himself.)
If our 2 had gone in front of the 3, we would have gotten to 96th before the 1, so we would have gone local. Then the 3 would have pulled in across from the 1. It would have been just perfect.
Almost every time I've ridden the subway in the past week (and it's been a lot -- I just got through with a well-used 7-day unlimited), I see a 2 on the express track somewhere, usually southbound. (For a change, northbound local service is more reliable nowadays.) These aren't freak occurrences.
I don't think malice is the reason. Cluelessness is more like it. The TD's and ATD's probably don't have passenger counts in front of them (why would they?) and think of the local stations as quaint little local stations that no one uses, not as some of the busiest stations in the system. The 2 may travel between the Bronx and Brooklyn, but most of its passengers don't leave Manhattan.
Heh, yesterday, they were routing at least 4 or 5 2 trains up the express during the day.
Up as in northbound? Those I didn't see. What time?
Around 11 AM to noon.
Interesting. That's around when the NB 3 I was on got to 72nd just as a 2 was pulling out across the platform. It was while waiting for the next local that two 2's went by on the SB express. It looks like at least six 2 trains ran express between 11am and noon. The 2 runs at about 7.5 tph (each way) middays; this means that, during that one hour, no more than 60% of 2 trains made the stops they're all supposed to make.
if the 2 trains are late for whatever reason they get sent express,its as simple as that.if they're on time they go local like their supposed to.
Various photos I took on Sunday with my new camera. Range is 60k to 170k.
Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
SORRY, links fixed.
Various photos I took on Sunday with my new camera. Range is 60k to 170k.
Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
Particularly liked #4 ... all the nice little toasters on wheels, laid up and sleeping for another day. :)
heh heh...thanks
Just to test my skills, I'll attempt to identify the locations of each of these photos.
Photo 1: IRT South Ferry terminal
Photo 2: Looking south from the (L) platform at Broadway Junction
Photo 3: The southbound (L) platform at B'way Junction, the exact same spot where this photo was taken. (That's me next to the train.)
Photo 4: Looking into the adjacent yard from Broadway Junction.
Considering I'm a non-New Yorker, how did I do?
-- David
Chicago, IL
nice digital camera ! what make & model is it ??? nothing like shots of
railfan window equipped rail rolling stock !!!!!!
LOL LOL LOL !!
If that's the blue line, why do the cars have a yellow stripe?
-Hank
Because the geniouses at LACMTA decided that the Blue (and Green) Line LRVS should have the same sorry paint scheme as the buses. At least the Red Line cars have been spared that indignity :P
I took this photo back in April on MARTA and totally forgot about it. Then I just read something on CNN about another attack being planned for the summer and I remembered this photo. Only two days to go.
Where on marta? A bathroom stall? I can't tell what that is.
never mind, your subject says it was "on train." It's late. Time for bed before I make a bigger fool of myself.
That's alright. It was on the back of the seat in front of where I was sitting. Time for me to go beddy-bye also, I got too much BS to do tomorrow :-)
Rob,
It wouldn't hurt to show that photo to transit authorities, just to be on the safe side. God forbid something does happen on Wednesday, lives would be lost. But I'll leave that up to you. -Nick
Dont be to suprised If this weekend R42's start rolling this weekend
on the Q. There were 3 8 car transfers from ENY to CIY this afternoon,They went straight to the barn.
It will be strange to see the R42's out of the JMZL service. I don't remember them anywhere else. The last time they ran elsewhere was before they were rebuilt, and I really didn't pay attention back then.
R-42s have been out of the "east" a few times since rebuilding. They were on the Brighton Line on rare occasion for weekend shuttles, and the Coney Island-overhauled bunch (4840-4949) was sent to Coney Island in the summer of 1999 while the Williamsburg Bridge was closed. But as far as shop assignments go, yes, if R-42s are indeed being assigned to Coney Island Shop this will be the first time any of them have been assigned anywhere but East New York Shop since their overhaul in the late 1980s.
David
Also, briefly they took over the Sea Beach and the R line to 95th Street after 9/11. I also often forget that the M uses the West End every day. I often incorrectly think of the Eastern Division ending at Broad Street.
I didn't count the temporary service changes in 2001 because those trains were on Eastern Division services that were EXTENDED into the Southern Division, as opposed to services that didn't touch the Eastern Division at all (such as the Brighton shuttles).
David
That's true, sort of like the M train runs on the Southern Division, but it's not special because it's an Eastern Division train. Now when the Q starts running with them.......
hey what is going to J,M,Z if R42s leave them? sorry i know it sounds like a stupid question but i havent been keeping up lately. mcd got me workin 40 hours and i havent had much time to post.
Any B Division car except the 75' variety could serve there.
dont be suprised if the R32's go to the J,M,Z.they can run in 8 car sets.it happens on the C so we might see those 32's there soon.and it sure has been several years since they were on those lines.
That may be true, but I doubt that will happen. The only reason the R42's are leaving is because they are being bumped out by the new R143's arriving on the L line. The M will be getting a few also. I seriously doubt they will ship in other 60 foot cars from other lines to the Eastern Division. The Eastern division is getting rid of the old cars, not changing to old cars from other lines. The L should soon be all R143 soon.
I guess that means that they've bumped out ALL of the Slants that were formerly on the "L"...
wayne
Well Wayne, what do you think? Should we sample an R-143 ride on the L this October?
The 42's are being pushed out by the new R143's, as they start to take over the L line. The M line will be getting a few next. The J as far as I know will be keeping their R42's. I think all the R40 slants are off the JMZL, and possibly the R40M's will be gone soon too, although they are mixed up with the R42's. The L will probably become 100% R143, and the M may become half and half.
I agree, it will be very strange not having the R-42's on the L, J, Z, & M Lines, I'll probably get used to it after the full R-143 fleet arrives.
Get used to it on the L; don't get used to it on the J/Z and M, at least not yet. Remember, the R-143 order is for 212 cars. The current L requirement is 168 cars, leaving 44 cars for the J/Z and/or M and for spares/long-term holds/etc. The current requirements for the J/Z and M far exceed 44 cars.
David
9/8, the M is set for weekend OPTO with the new cars. The cars still don't even run on weekends, so there are already enough to run on the M those times.
So, will the Q circle still have the R68's as was intended since the bridge flop?
So, can someone answer my question?
Before the 42's were rebuilt, they were mainstays on the "D" train up until the arrival of the R-68's. At which point, they were given a pre-overhaul paint job which included blue doors (a la the R32) and then transferred to the Eastern Division. Many of these cars were in J/Z, L and M service prior to being rebuilt by M&K or Coney Island.
Mark
I remember the "blue door" R42's in the mid 80's on the M line. The R40 slants were also there with the blue doors around that time, and the red R27 or r30's showed up here and there. I also seem to remember the R42 (along with the R16, R40, R40M, R27-30) covered with grafitti all on the M line in early to mid 80's. Although, I also possibly recall the R32's or R38's with grafitti on the M also. I'm only going by memory, as I didn't know different car types names back then, but do remember the cars.
There may have been a Coney Island R32 here or there on the M line during the early to mid-1980's, but I don't think R38's ever made it up there. The 38's were mainstays on the BMT's Southern Division ( the B, D, and especially the N). Around 1982 or '83, the R38's went to 207th Yard for service on the "A" line. This allowed the slant 40's to be moved from the "A" line to Coney Island Yard for "B" service.
To this day, the R40 was my favorite of all the cars that ran the "A" line. I'm not old enough to remember the R10's which dominated the "A" in the 50's and 60's. And I only rode R9's on the E and F.
Mark
I rode a train of R-38s on the M in 1981 or '82, while I was in high school.
David
I didn't know you were in high school at the same time as me. I went to Grady, from Newkirk. I used to see or ride them all the time on the M, and it seems no one remembers they were there. (many don't even remember the 32's were there)
I began seeing this car that looked like a 42, but some things about it looked older like a 32. Then I caught one on the M local, and it was a short train (proving it wasn't a D). They were on all the southern div. trains (except the still Queens-based N) from mid '81 to early '82. By May, they were on the A.
I could swear I remember riding both the R38's and R32's occasionally on the M when I was in high school back around 1984 or 1985. Again, I really didn't know different cars back then, but I sort of remember some of the trains being ribbed all the way down, and some ribbed only half - the difference between the R32 and R38 on the exterior. But then I again, I can't say for sure. I definitely remember at least one or the other, but possibly both.
You definitely did ride R32's and R38's in that time frame. I remember operating them there.
I remember the R-10s on the A very, very well. It was because of those cars that the A remains my favorite route to this day.
No, they were also on the N for a short while from 1998(1999?)-2000. They were pretty rare back then, but they were still there.
They were on the N and Q Lines.
http://www.nycsubway.org/coney/maint/cimaint05.jpg
I can recall R-42's on the "Q" train about 1988-9 right after the first North Side MannyB reopening. Prior to that, R-42's were prominent on the B, D, M, (Very seldom the J), RR, and QB lines. I hadn't seen an R-42 on the F since about 1975!!!!!!!! Tony
R-42's, not R-40M's?
And why the Q and not the N?
On a related note, I saw two four-car R-68 sets from CIY at Concourse yesterday -- 2728 and friends (signed as a Q) and 2734 and friends (signed as a W).
At least one of them was School Car from Stillwell; probably both.
Car numbers would be helpful.
I bet they're from the Coney Island group (4840-4949).
Are we sure the Q is their destination? "Circle" or "Diamond"? Maybe the N, too?
According to my dog-eared notes, the last UNREBUILT (but graffiti-free) R-40M/42 trains departed Coney Island (Q) for East NY on April 3, 1989. They were used on the L and M lines until cycled through the GOH program. 4840-4949 were done by Coney Island Shops-NYCTA, while the R-40 Mods followed their sister Slants through the Sumitomo plant (now CAF) in Elmira Heights, NY during 1989.
I was up in Elmira last week and they had some Pittsburgh light rail cars buried deep inside the complex. There are probably Washington Metro cars around as well but I couldn't see any. The plant has changed hands several times, most recently being operated on behalf of Adtranz to produce LRT cars for Baltimore and the M4 cars for Philadelphia. However, the R-40s are fondly recalled by those who were there.
Regards,
George Chiasson
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Sure they weren't 40M's?
wayne
They must have been. Before they send the cars off, they change the signs to Q at ENY. I saw a bunch of 40m's like this last week, but not 42's. I guess they're sending the lesser fleets off first.
I am seeing more solid trains of 40m's now. i wonder why they don't just put all of them on the M, so they can just finish at CIYD and stay there rather than having a special transfer move.
I also wonder when the 32's will start leaving. I guess when the shortage at CI is filled.
For any of you who rides Amtrak, you will agree with me that while their dining car fare is exceedingly good, their snack bar food is half a preservitive short of disgusting. Not only that, but the swill they sell is extremely overpriced. I can't blame them for the prices, passengers are free to BTO, but they should at least try to improve quality.
The cafe (or lounge) cars basically serve 3 things. Beverages, packaged snacks and "quasi-entrees".
The beverages are fine, you can't screw up a can of soda. The packaged snacks are fine, a bag of Doriteos dosen't vary too much quality wise. The problem is with the actual "meal" type food selections. What they serve are a bunch of pre-packaged, microwavable, lo-nutrition, hi-fat, lo-taste, industrial food simulants. Its like what you find in a 7-11, only with about 1/3 the quality.
This is completely unacceptable. For most people on most of the non-Hotel type trains, the Cafe car is the only source of food they have for 3-5 hours. After the "food" is heated up in the microwave it essentially has the consistancy and texture of rubber. The stuff is impossible to cut or bite into and it is usually over cooked (as they feel that it is preferable to having a frozen spot in the center).
Some may say, "what do you expect, its just a cramped little snack bar". Well, anyone who says that obviously hasn't been to 37th and Spruce in Philly. Every day I get lunch from a guy in a cart that has the floor space of a bath tub and its reasonably priced and very tasty. He serves the full array of greasy philly food and if your order dosen't involve cooking meat you can be in and out of there in 30 seconds. There are also chineese food carts that for the same size serve all of those chineese foods we know and love. The "mon and pop" couple inside can take an order and put out your food in about 45 seconds. An Amtrak snack bar has about double the space of these street carts and with some equipment re-arrangement and some immigrant guy behind the counter they could be serving REAL food with an attedant who is smiling and happy to serve you (unlike most snack bar folk who look like they are seriously considering suicide).
The big problem is that this service would be so popular that they would probably run out of food midway along the trip. The food is also slightly harder to re-stock and requires a small amount of skill to prepare. Still, it is nothing that coudln't be accomplished with a little effort.
This brings me to proposal #2. What sort of fast food chain makes a wide variety of food, with little capital equipment and in a space that could fit in a Photomat? Here's a hint, they recently surpassed McDonnalds in terms of # of locations. Give up? Subway! Why not just subcontract with Subway (tm) to convert Cafe cars into mini-Subway shacks. All the fixins are in modular containers and the only real problem is the fresh baked bread, but I am sure some consessions can be made and the rolls can be a few hours old and not necessarily served out of warming ovens. Because Subway is all over the place, it would not be hard for a "refill" crew to meet the train at an intermediate station and offload the old fixins and inload the new fixins. Its all modular and all it would require is about 10-15 minutes time on either side of the refill stop. Not only would the food be better and better for you, it would also be easier to carry back to your seat. Currently, Amtrak put your food in this square cardboard thing. You try balancing that all the way back to your seat as the train bucks and sways and you try to open all the car end doors. Subway subs are wrapped up in a nice little bag that is proof against droppage.
Amtrak beats all other forms of transportation in terms of service in every area EXCEPT short distance food. If they want to get people out of cars, airplanes and busses, what better way than to offer a Subway Express restuarant that is accessable for the entire trip.
No I disagree Amtrak Fude was manufactured by UNION LABOR with PRIDE, LOVE and AFFECTION providing jobs for AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!! They are the BEST. It would not be RIGHTOUS to eat any other fude.
I won't TOUCH 'fude'.
-Hank
Is "fude" imitation "fudge"?
No, "fude" is food for illiterates.
Do you have PROFF??? How do you know that FUDE is food for illterates if you do not have PROFF?????
please stop, I'm gonna die from laughter
No no no, nothing is better than eating Cheese-food. It comes in those little sausage/cheese stick things, on the same shelf as the jerky at 7-11. It's a substance that looks like cheese, smells like cheese, sounds like cheese, and tastes vaguely like cheese ... but it ain't cheese.
Then there's this substance called "jerky chew", which is supposed to be shredded beef jerky ... it has the consistancy of fuzz and one of the ingrediants is sodium nitrate (ain't that the same stuff used in fertelizer ... and an explosive?)
After I purchased a little can of it, my friends and I looked at it scratching our heads, puzzled as to whether or not you're supposed to actually ingest it, or, like chewing tobacco, chew it then spit the juice and substance.
But I do love actual beef jerky. Slim Jims too.
Anything with ham has sodium nitrate. Cambells soups with ham have it. Remeber Nitrates are carcinogines. Almost all Hams/Ham product/imitation Ham has Sodium nitrate. It does add alot of flavor. Would you rather have some Mono Sodium Glutatmate (which is "Autolized Yeast Extract")?
>>>Almost all Hams/Ham product/imitation Ham has Sodium nitrate. It does add alot of flavor.<<<
Sodium Nitrate does noth for flavor, it is a preservative.
Peace,
ANDEE
You are probably thinking of Ammonium Nitrate, Sodium Nitrate, or saltpeter is used in gunpowder and as a dietary supplement in prisons and some say, the military as a potency depressant.
Me too.....OMG.........I'm still laffin' muh arse off......
I haven't rode a Amtrak Train is while, How is the Acela Express Cafe Food?
I haven't rode a Amtrak Train is while, How is the Acela Express Cafe Food?
It's the same as the Northeast Direct fude. It's made in the same kitchen. It's made with the same UNION LABOR. It is wonderful.
The Acela Cafe bar design and seating arrangement sux, but we won't go there. These were built by NON UNION LABOR up in some FROG COUNTRY.
AEM7
What I meant was, How does the Food taste on board the Acela Express?
What I meant was, How does the Food taste on board the Acela Express?
I assumed you had tasted fude on Northeast Direct. Well if you haven't, here's some info. The pizza is kind of soggy, since it's microwaved and has been in the fridge. The gourmet sandwiches are actually quite good (turkey and beef) since they are the sort of thing that preserve well in the fridge. Not as good as Au Bon Pain but they certainly do use similar quality ingredients (except the bread which is always stale due to refrigration). The hotdog is like the cheap kind you can get in a 7-11, except the actual dog itself is a high-quality beef dog but the microwave doesn't really do it justice. The snacks are hard to get wrong. The Sara Lee muffins are OK, just like ones you would get in a highway service station, but they can be a bit battered and malformed if they were not handled carefully in the stocking process. The wraps and other gourmet dishes again are made from pretty good ingredients and clearly care and skill had been taken to prepare it, but again the packaging and the storage conditions don't do these fudes justice. Some of the dishes had recently been cut due to the Gunn regime to cut back on amenities. Anyone else care to comment?
You can buy food from the cafe car even if the train isn't moving. Go to Penn Station and wait for a train to come, and buy something, to see what it tastes like without travelling on a train. Most Northeast Directs layover for like 20 mins at NYP. Usually the cafe car attendent can be found smoking on the platform.
AEM7
They don't let you to platform leval without a ticket. Plus there are ticket checkers (screw the sickos of sept11).
go to the LIRR level, and sneak down there. Once, I strolled thru the consist of an AR train, before it departed
Are you saying I should cross the tracks to get to the amtrak platform?
no, you go to LIRR Level (it's the one below the Amtrak area), and you can get onto the Amtrak platforms from there, and the stairways don't have ticket checkers.
I considered doing it once, but never did because I had a backpack on and looked a little unshaven and disheveled - i.e. I felt I looked like too much of a terrorist.
Where are they? I have been in Penn Station and am famillir with it.
Penn Station sortof has three levels below street level.
On the Bottom there are the tracks.
Then a level above that is LIRR Station (to the North East Corner) but on that level to the west there is a passageway that runs to the south, and has stairways to all of the platforms. It appeared to me that this was supposed to be the exit level, so that passengers detraining would not go all the way up to the waiting room and have to fight thier way through a mob of people tryng to get on thier trains. I was under the impression that if you went far enough south on that level you would come to the baggage room but AMTK does not seem to use it that way, but return checked baggate on their tickiting level, so I may be misteaken about that.
The uppermost underground level it the Amtrak tickiting and waiting area, of which you are familiar.
Now I seem also to recall yet another set of stairways exiting even further West on the OTHER SIDE of the eighth avenue subway, and the Iron work there looked very much like the original Penn Station.
does anybody know of this place? Is it still there? Is it open to the public? I think that it is.
Elias
I know LIRR not AMTRAK. It took me 40 minutes to find the AMTRAK area. Also on paper the Station is actually 3 different mezzanies. LIRR and AMTRAK (haven't found NJ Trasit yet)and NJ Transit. And you can only access that train from its railroad's mezzanine.
My biggest rant with AMTK snack service is the lines!
Put Pop Machines in the vestibule of EVERY CAR! That will get the people who only want a cold drink out of the snack car line. Pre-packaged snacks, same thing: vending machines, though maybe only in the snack car this time.
Finally, these bums have a plastic cup on the counter to collect TIPS! Whay the heck should these people be soliciting tips. These are not waiters in a resturant. You don't give the counterperson at Mickey D a tip! These are AMTK employees pulling down union wages and benefits. THEY DO NOT NEED TIPS. Even Dining Car Attendants get paid much more than some kid working in a local resturant.
As part of a restructure of AMTK, I would require signs on all menus, and in all food service cars "TIPPING IS FORBIDDEN" Inspectors finding service staff soliciting tips should terminate them at the end of thie run.
These people are AMTK employees, not kids working through school. They have benefits and a good wage package, and are free to negeotiate with management the terms of employment. The need not be beggars.
Elias
Put Pop Machines in the vestibule of EVERY CAR!
When/how do you restock them? When/how would you collect money? Where is there room? How many revenue seats would you lose if you installed these just inside the vestibule? Where is the capital money that would be needed to purchase these machines? How much is the operating expenses? How would you run a 12-car train with enough HEP load to power twelve fridges full of pop? How do you guarentee that it would be still cold after the machine has sat all night without power at a yard, then pulled for the 06:00 departure?
Finally, these bums have a plastic cup on the counter to collect TIPS! Whay the heck should these people be soliciting tips. These are not waiters in a resturant.
YOU work a Cafe car, then you tell me that we don't deserve tips. How much do you know about the Amtrak unions? Do you think cafe car attendents are in the same union as conductors etc? Do you think these people get overtime if the train is late? Do you think these people get to sleep in their own bed every night?
Even Dining Car Attendants get paid much more than some kid working in a local resturant.
So you're comparing a Harvey girl to some dope who works at McDonalds and accidentally put plastic bags into the deep fryer and tries to fish it out with a carton?
As part of a restructure of AMTK, I would require signs on all menus, and in all food service cars "TIPPING IS FORBIDDEN" Inspectors finding service staff soliciting tips should terminate them at the end of thie run.
I'm not even union. I've never been in an union. I think you should be forbidden from Amtrak trains.
The need not be beggars.
Party hosts who solicit tips from those who are willing to give are not beggars. I regularly solicit tips at various bars and subway stops while providing mass entertainment. Am I a beggar? Do I need the money? No.
AEM7
former GNER cafe car attendent (well for a few weeks anyway)
What does HEP stand for "with enough HEP load to power" and what is it exactly. I have faint idea but...
HEP is Head End Power. AEM7 Is now a complete kook in my book.
-Hank
Isn't HEP a system for distributing power to un-powered coaches (480v) as compared to the old fashined system of having a generator on one of the axels + batterys.
"Isn't HEP a system for distributing power to un-powered coaches (480v) as compared to the old fashined system of having a generator on one of the axels + batterys."
Correct. It comes from the locomotive, hence it is Head End Power.
In days of old, Steam was used to heat and coll the train, and batteries on each car were charged by wheelset generators to power lighting. But that is all they could power.
Modern engines do not use steam anymore, and so Electricity is used for Heating, Lithing and Air Conditioning (also know as the Hotel Load). It takes a lot of power. You will remember that the LIRR used to put a locomotive at one end and a POWER CAR on the other, just to cover the Hotel Loadings.
Elias
what do you mean by "power car"?
The LIRR converted some E7(?) locomotives to power cars. The Looked like a Locomotive, the had a cab in them from which the engineer could run the train, they had a prime mover in them spinning a generator to provide hotel loadings, but it had no traction motors. IT COULD NOT MOVE BY ITSELF!
LIRR practice was to put a GP38 on the east end of the train, and one of thes on the west. When it came at you you might mistake it for a locomotive, but it was only the power pack. the train was MUd back to the locomotive on the east end which is what was moving the train.
The cars in this consist were the old 'world's fair' cars, the last pre M1 MUs bought by the railroad. The traction motors were removed from the cars, but the MU lines were intact. The cars needed HEP because, as former MU cars they had no steam heat or steam powered airconditioning.
And this arrangement made huge savings at the terminals since the trains did not need to be turned.
Elias
Why were the MUs demotorized? Also why would LIRR demotorize some of the the E-7s/
Because they were replaced with something better. And the depowered MUs were better than the old coaches (were these the ping-pongs?) they replaced. I don't recall any E unit power cars, but they did have FAs they used as power cars. A GP38 on one end, which had no HEP, several coaches in between, all through-wired for MU operation, and the FA power car at the other end. Either cab could be used, as there were no push-pull cab cars then.
If I'm not mistaken, some of these cars had generators that provided hotel power.
The power cars were demotored to reduce weight and such. They didn't need two locomotives to MOVE the train. Thing of Amtrak's former F40s, now Cabbages.
-Hank
Yes the had FAs and also E7s(?) that had their original prime movers pulled out, and a new prime mover-generator set assembly (a sled, they called it) installed in its place. The probably used a lot less fuel than the old prime movers which were probably in pretty poor shape by this time. Basically, they bought carbodies that looked like locomotives and used them as HEP Power cabs.
LIRR did have other motor-generator-bar cars, and these could be found on other lines where push pull was not used.
The 'old' worlds fair cars were 1960s vehicles, and were near new when they were replaced on the electric lines by the M1s. The motors were pulled, as was said to reduce weight, and the card placed into diesel service. Yes, many ping-pong cars were replaced by this, though some remained in places such as the Oyster Bay, which was powered by a single MP 15 (at least in the summer when heat was not required, or by the remaining ALCOs when it was.
Elias
"When/how do you restock them? When/how would you collect money? Where is there room? How many revenue seats would you lose if you installed these just inside the vestibule? Where is the capital money that would be needed to purchase these machines? How much is the operating expenses? How would you run a 12-car train with enough HEP load to power twelve fridges full of pop? How do you guarentee that it would be still cold after the machine has sat all night without power at a yard, then pulled for the 06:00 departure?"
The Pepsi Cola Company would be glad to install the machines (no cost to AMTK) they will service the machines at selected stops and collect the money. The will probably even pay a fee for the placement of the machines, although in that case they would likely enough just jack up the price, so I would skip that part if I could. AMTK might like it though.
All needs be done is to remember to plug the consist into shore power when the locomotive leaves it, but they need to do that anyway for the car cleaners.
I do not think that a few pop machines will seriously deplete HEP, but if so then plan new power that has the excess capacity for passenger amenitites.
Elias
Put out the blue prints of the GG-1, and get a power transformer catologue. Or take 3 HHP-8s.
The Pepsi Cola Company would be glad to install the machines (no cost to AMTK)
Not so. Pepsi is a distributor and bottler. Pepsi is not interested in retailing Pepsi. The retailer takes all risks for the retailing operation. Pepsi might be interested in an exclusive contract with a retailer for a small sum of money, but the retailer retains the revenue risk.
The student union here lease machines from Pepsi. They also have to employ their own staff to service it.
All needs be done is to remember to plug the consist into shore power when the locomotive leaves it, but they need to do that anyway for the car cleaners.
Many places where coaches are left do not have shore supplies. For example, in Southampton Yard, shore supplies are only available in the shed and not out in the coach yard.
I do not think that a few pop machines will seriously deplete HEP, but if so then plan new power that has the excess capacity for passenger amenitites.
Let's see. An industrial grade refrigrator is 2kW. 2kW at 480V is 4 amps. 4 amps at 12 coaches is 48 amps. The cables under the Amfleet are rated for 600 amps, so there is plenty of capacity to power just the Pepsi dispensers. However do not forget that the toilets, the air conditioners, etc all consume electricity. Heaters on board an Amfleet could easily be at 5kW or 10kW capacity. That's 120kW for 12 coaches = 250 amps. The Cafe Car alone can easily consume up to 50 amps just by itself. This is some serious power.
The F40's only reserved about 200hp for HEP, meaning the maximum amount of draw that would be allowed is around 150kW -- that's only about 300 amps. 48 amps out of that going to the Pepsi machines, sooner or later your loco is going to start overloading and tripping the HEP.
AEM7
Couple another one on. Also Get a extension cord for the coaches like when the plug (litterally) coaches into the power at GCT.
"Not so. Pepsi is a distributor and bottler. Pepsi is not interested in retailing Pepsi. The retailer takes all risks for the retailing operation. Pepsi might be interested in an exclusive contract with a retailer for a small sum of money, but the retailer retains the revenue risk.
The student union here lease machines from Pepsi. They also have to employ their own staff to service it. "
Not so, not so.
Pepsi offers contacts either way. Yes, the student union can own the machines, and collect the monies. But many pop machines are company owned and maintained.
The pop machine in our lunch room is owned and serviced by pepsi.
The compressors on a pop machine do not run continiously, and can be arranged to run in a staggered mode, so that only one or two machines were actually cooling at once.
The most important reason for having them (besides the fact that I *like* Pepsi, and that I do not like standing in line) is that it relieves the congestion in the CAFE cars, and reduces the lines there for everyone.
Elias
Yes, by 'The Pepsi-Cola Bottling Company of (wherever)', NOT by the Pepsi-Cola Corporation. Pepsico licenses bottlers and supplies the syrup. The individual bottlers do just about everything else, including local marketing (national marketing comes out of Pepsico) The individual bottlers lease the machines to whomever wants to pay. USUALLY, the bottler also services them.
-Hank
"I'm not even union. I've never been in an union."
Well I have been in a union, and I have lost all respect for unions and union jobs as a result of that experience. I worked for Wakefern Shoprite as a Bagger and Cashier for a year, for a little over 10 months, I watched my paycheck be gouged by union dues, initiation, and other assorted fees that our local union imposed upon us. The union also required that all people start at the lowest pay level, work a minimum of 20 hr per week, hard to do when you also want to go to school, and do the all important after school activities that colleges supposedly look for. After these ten months of bull, I decided that I wanted to go focus more on school, and put in my 2 weeks notice. Just two days after I left, the store went on strike, and all that money that had been taken from me was wasted on a strike that accomplished nothing, and merely interuppted the the store's operations slightly.
When I went looking for a summer job this year, I specifically applied to places that were Non-union. Now I am making 25cents less than what I made on sunday (higher pay that day) at shoprite, every day, and that is my opening salary, the store is cleaner, newer, and not union dominated.
Unions may be good for areas where the company can cut corners and put their worker's safety at risk, and at one time they were necessary, but today I see unions as bleeding the US industry, and encouraging them to move overseas. If US labor produces the best stuff, great, but if nothing ever comes off the line, then there is a problem.
The union also required that all people start at the lowest pay level, work a minimum of 20 hr per week, hard to do when you also want to go to school, and do the all important after school activities that colleges supposedly look for.
It's a two-way street. Unions don't want scums like you who take away jobs from the real people who want to develop a profession. College kids shouldn't be taking jobs away from people who pay union dues and are prepared to work their way up to the top. What kind of a scumbag are you? Think you can be a bagger and cashier AND go to college? Let's see how smart you are...
There is a reason I remained non-union. That is precisely because I also went to school, and I never intended to develop a "craft". I intend on getting my degree and entering the workforce that way. I am too impatient to work my way up.
That having been said, unions do have their place. They retain a lot of expertise, they can assist with training on the job, and they maintain a workplace atmosphere where people look after each other, unlike in a non-union outfit (especially bad amongst white-collar office workers) where people are constantly trying to undermine each other. Let me tell you, with all that office promotional politics shit, sometimes I wish I were union and I don't have to put up with this kissing the boss's ass. All I have to do in an union is just do my job and when the elders retire, I would automatically have the seniority. What a great system.
AEM7
That having been said, unions do have their place. They retain a lot of expertise, they can assist with training on the job, and they maintain a workplace atmosphere where people look after each other, unlike in a non-union outfit (especially bad amongst white-collar office workers) where people are constantly trying to undermine each other. Let me tell you, with all that office promotional politics shit, sometimes I wish I were union and I don't have to put up with this kissing the boss's ass. All I have to do in an union is just do my job and when the elders retire, I would automatically have the seniority. What a great system.
I agree. On my last job as a field inspector for an architecture firm, I often worked among union carpenters and electricians out on construction sites. I was the guy who walked around with a clipboard to check up on their work, but I actually had a lot more respect for the union workers out in the field than for my backstabbing co-workers and managers back at the office.
With all the recent scandals involving Enron, Arthur Andersen, WorldCom, and Xerox, not to mention my own experiences working for greedy and/or incompetent bosses at various architecture firms, I've developed a much healthier appreciation for guys who put in an honest day's labor for a living rather than the mealy-mouthed corporate managers and consultants who get away with bloody murder and then leave their employees and investors footing the bill.
I used to think that unions for retail workers was a pretty silly idea -- it's not like they're down in a coal mine or anything -- but then I actually worked retail for a couple years and changed my tune. Now, we've got allegations at Wal-Mart managers are locking their employees inside the strores at night and forcing them to work off the clock. (Of course, when they're on the clock, they're barely making minimum wage with no benefits, with their managers vigorously crushing any attempts to organize.) Yet one more reason I refuse to spend a dime at Wal-Mart. My former manager at Circuit City used to pull the same stunts until I finally told him off one night and let myself out of the store via a fire exit. (Thus endeth my short career in retail.) I'd give anything to send a few dozen burly Teamsters with baseball bats to pay a visit to some of these sweatshop managers.
Of course, there are issues of greed and corruption within some unions, and these need to be dealt with. But in most cases it involves the union leadership rather than the rank-and-file workers, and it doesn't negate the need for unions in the first place.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I used to think that unions for retail workers was a pretty silly idea -- it's not like they're down in a coal mine or anything -- but then I actually worked retail for a couple years and changed my tune. Now, we've got allegations at Wal-Mart managers are locking their employees inside the strores at night and forcing them to work off the clock. (Of course, when they're on the clock, they're barely making minimum wage with no benefits, with their managers vigorously crushing any attempts to organize.) Yet one more reason I refuse to spend a dime at Wal-Mart.
I'm currently reading the book Nickel and Dimed, by Barbara Ehrenreich, in which the author (a well-known essayist and lecture speaker) describes an experiment in which she worked incognito at low-paid jobs around the country a couple of years ago. She did so in an attempt to determine whether women forced onto the job market by welfare reform would be able to survive on the mostly low-wage jobs they'd have to take.
While the book has its flaws, most notably those resulting from Ehrenreich's leftist biases, it does offer some thought-provoking observations and insights. This is true especially of her account of working at a Minneapolis-area Wal-Mart. If we're to assume that Ehrenreich's account is reasonably close to the truth, Wal-Mart appears to be a rather unpleasant place from an employee perspective. Workers simply aren't treated with much dignity, and obviously aren't going to get rich off of the wages they receive. Ehrenreich does not spare the typical Wal-Mart shopper from her scorn, however, as she notes that many toss carefully folded clothing on the floor and let their screaming children run wild. In my favorite passage in the book, Ehrenreich lamented the fact, after dealing with a particularly hyperactive ankle-biter, that abortion had to be confined to the unborn.
You work in a WalMart far from any others, you fall in love with a coworker, get married and one of you gets fired, even if you work in different departments. That was the policy for years, it may still be.
You work in Walmart and one day you wipe that stupid smile off your face and you get fired. You fall in love with a co worker on the job, get married and you're fired. The problem is not restrictions but finding and keeping a responsible workforce at a less than average salary that cannot afford to live within a reasonable travel distance. I'm still learning...TA work is excellent work but the lazy slob next to you gets the same pay...in private industry he would be fire. CI Peter
It's a two-way street. Unions don't want scums like you who take away jobs from the real people who want to develop a profession. College kids shouldn't be taking jobs away from people who pay union dues and are prepared to work their way up to the top. What kind of a scumbag are you? Think you can be a bagger and cashier AND go to college? Let's see how smart you are...
Either my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning, or you have not a clue what you are talking about. NO ONE wants to be a professional cashier. These jobs are 99% filled by people looking to work their way through school. Some of the retail workers unions are decent, others suck rotten meat. I worked for three major supermarket chains. In two of them, the minimum hours to be scheduled was 16hrs per week, with a minimum of a 4hr day (same union local 'A'). In the other, it was 9hrs, with no minimum day (different local, 'B'). Union dues, after a $60 initiation fee to each, were $4 (later $4.50) per week for union A; for the union B, it was $6.50 per week. At the first 'A' job, I started at $4.35/hr, and ended at $4.75/hr. I usually worked 16-24 hours a week between 4 and 8.5 hours a day (8 hour days required a 1/2 hour unpaid lunch), depending on how flexible I was. There were some weeks where I worked 30 or more hours. Sundays were paid at 1.5 times, with the more flexible workers (the ones who took the lousier shifts) getting longer Sunday shifts. At the second 'A' job, I started at $4.50/hr (experience rewarded) and ended at $5.75/hr. Generally, I worked the same type of shifts, with the exception of the special sales, where I worked 60 hours or more (it helped that school was out during this time), and serious work the week of Easter, Christmas, and Thanksgiving.
At the union B job, we worked the minimum hours, usually in 3 or 4 hour shifts. A three hour shift got no break, while someone on a four hour shift may have to take their break after a mere 15 minutes of work. Complaints to the union went no place. Think it was a boss problem? Think again. The head cashier had her favorites. She was union. The shop steward was a grocery clerk who worked overnights. Rarely was he seen by the daytimers. Calls to the union office were unreturned. Complaints to managment were met with awe ("She's doing what? I'm sorry! You should bring this up with your shop steward.") I trained other employees, who wound up working longer hours than I did. We had a cashier who couldn't do simple arithmetic (what's 17 from 25?) I worked there for three months, and couldn't afford to work there any longer. A paycheck in the sub-$75 range, minus taxes and then the $6.50 a week in dues, was just enough to pay for my triangular commute. This union did nothing for its workers. It was useless.
Your comments may apply to trade unions, but certainly not to retail unions. Retail unions are there to prevent employee abuse by the employer. Trade unions are there to find work for their members, and this is what their dues pay for.
-Hank
Some places and states have Union Shops.... You cannot work there without belonging to the union.
North Dakota is a Right to Work state, and no union or employer can require you to belong to a union. Yes there are unions in ND, but you cannot be required to join as terms for employment.
Elias
New York State has "agency shop" which means the union gets your money whether or not you join, so you might as well. (I'm talking public employees union here) If you DON'T join, you're entitled to a partial refund of union money spent on lobbying, but since your wages and hours are set by union contract, you still have to pay.
Some unions are OK, some are bad. I remember a time when I was in Ricky Carnivale's CWA 1101. Screwage to the max for newbies. :)
New York State has "agency shop" which means the union gets your money whether or not you join, so you might as well. (I'm talking public employees union here) If you DON'T join, you're entitled to a partial refund of union money spent on lobbying, but since your wages and hours are set by union contract, you still have to pay.
Interesting. It was like that when I was a student at Cambridge. They forced everybody to join the student union, and the college billed the union dues to your college bill, and if you don't pay up, it's like owing the college $ and therefore they can withhold your degree.
Well as all of you probably expected, being AEM7, I made badges that read "PROUDLY NON-UNION" and wrote many opt-out letters to the college authorities pointing out at great pains that I have no wish to belong to an ineffective student union. It would appear that the union was suckered in by the college administrators and are basically the arm they use to manipulate the students. I still paid my dues though, because apparently "I used student union facilities such as the college bar", so they were entitled to charge me.
My non-union stance was pretty effective. The college in question was so afraid of bad publicity that they didn't charge me for the one or two things that I "accidentally damaged" while I was there. I guess they thought that my little non-union thing might become a campus-wide thing if I put in the effort spread the word. They hated me, but they let me graduate, and I'd never been back there. Well and anyway I handled the union's computer maintenance under contract, so I guess they had to give me SOME respect.
*sigh* AEM7's college days...
A Studen Union is not like a labor union (in my mind at least) but is more like a cooperative for certain services such as the gedunk or bar or whatever.
Now in the Navy it was required of Officers on board ship to pay Wardroom Fees. That covered their room, board, laundry, and such services. The had to vote on what their Wardroom fees would be, and so it was that enlisted men ate better than the officers, who were always bitching about the price. But at least their fude was served by a steward!
: ) Elias
A Studen Union is not like a labor union (in my mind at least) but is more like a cooperative for certain services such as the gedunk or bar or whatever.
Yeah, it sort of is, although I always believed that student unions should take a more proactive stance in bargaining. In private colleges, the students pay the fees, therefore the student should have power over administration to request a standard of service that can reasonably be expected and consistent with what was advertized. Once you start with a certain college, it is kind of difficult to transfer, so in that sense you're stuck in a contract.
In state colleges, student unions have lesser power because the state is footing the bill for the education and there can be no "industrial action" by a student union because students can't go on strike. The idea though is that TA's and some of the faculty members and admin staff who choose to join the "student" union should be able to at least effect SOME influence on issues such as the condition of student housing, teaching quality, amenities and other issues relevant to the student population...
When I was a student, the union staged a one-day stoppage by encouraging all TA's and all students to not turn up to classes. This was over a tuition fee increase (at a state college). The problem was that most students crossed the picket lines because they couldn't afford to miss the class. That left me wondering if there are any ways for student unions to be more effective. For example, perhaps instead of simply abstaining from class, the unions ought to lock the doors to classrooms so even the non-union people could not go to class.
That day, I was out with my camera capturing all the stoppage and all the signs that had gone up all over the place, so even though I was non-union, I was not at class.
In Canada the Student Unions are fierce!
Some even dictate how the class can be taught, like all exmples in class must be from the textbook.
Our union pins voodoo dolls, sacrifices chickens and rides about in Mercedes Benz sedans. They ask for money and they work to eliminate representation of the workforce THAT MAKE TRAINS GO. The entire system comes to a halt without operational trainsets. RTO is in line for a change too... the next sucession will bring us...7-11s. CI Peter
The student union.... concerned with food service and accommodations and such is different from the Student Senate (or other form of student govenment.) *That* is the forum for socaial or shcolastic change... The Student Union seems (at least where I wnet to college) to be involved with the amenities that it provided.
Elias
A Student Union isn't really a union. Its a lump sum payment for all the social activities that go on around campus. The money also funds all the various student organizations that anyone with motovation is free to form. The money is usually administered by the "student council" that would exist in some form anyway (government majours need experience you know). I pay 180$ per semester and it is some of the best money I have everr spent. That 180 keeps the beer flowing at partied, the movies running down at the cinema, a constant stream of important speakers, bands, clubs, inreamural sports, snacks, refreshments, Simpsons marathons, etc, etc. I am an officer of the Society of Physics Students and we get funded about $300 a year so I even directly benifit from the student pool of fun money.
I used to be pro-union, until I was in one.
(All I have to do in an union is just do my job and when the elders retire, I would automatically have the seniority. What a great system.)
In a union, the people who actually do their job are the suckers, and are treated as such. And with multi-tier contracts, don't think you'll be getting the same deal as the elders have now when you become an elder youself. They'll have sucked all the money out by then.
And with multi-tier contracts, don't think you'll be getting the same deal as the elders have now when you become an elder youself.
Multi-tier contracts don't work, for the following reasons:
(1) Contracts are up for reneg every 3-5 years
(2) By the time all the "old" tier people retire...
(3) ... the "new" tier would be leading the negotiation
(4) so they'll screw the new recruits and get the "old" wages
Basically, the trick to maintaining a multi-tier contract is to ensure that there are more "old" tier people than "new" tier people. UAL was bitten by this one real bad in 1995.
AEM7
So an instructor said to me'You need three people to move up...two who can be trusted and one who does the work.' I'm the sucker. BUT on the job when the smucks come after you, you can seriously look them in the face and say, 'You've been on the job and have failed to learn the tasks assigned...I'm not here to teach or do the work you are responsible for.' Sure you could be burned when these smucks make MS before you but they need your skill and dedication to complete assignements. The opportunity is there to move up and out...even at my advanced age of 48. CI Peter
"Finally, these bums have a plastic cup on the counter to collect TIPS! Whay the heck should these people be soliciting tips. These are not waiters in a resturant. You don't give the counterperson at Mickey D a tip!"
While I haven't seen a tip cup at McD's yet, I see them all the time at Starbucks and the like, where the workers aren't waiters or waitresses either. I notice that:
1) the cups don't have much money in them, and
2) most people conduct their business without putting ANY money in the tip cup.
I agree that tipping cafe attendants, like tipping coffee shop workers, is not customary or expected. OTOH, who the hell is hurt by them "asking" with a simple cup that can be easily ignored? Nobody's being forced here, not even by the light hand of custom. If they DO get a tip every once in a while, it's because the customer truly liked the service (or, occassionally, they're trying to "hit on" the worker). In my experience, workers with tip cups, where tips aren't customary, do NOT:
1) verbally request or demand a tip, or
2) act in any way disappointed, belligerent, offended, or whatever when they don't get a tip.
or, occassionally, they're trying to "hit on" the worker
Since when did people do that?
I said on a earlyier post about having McDs on LIRR trains.
Selling MacDonald's food on LIRR trains would just be finishing what Colin Ferguson started.
¿
It took a second for the name to click, but I just got it... lol
-- David
Chicago, IL
[¿]
MacDonalds has probably killed more people by hardened arteries than ANY serial killer!!
Serial or Cereal?
I love catfish. Best catfish dinner I ever had was on the Amtrak Zephyr rolling down the Coloorado River in the summer of 1988.
Oh, and breakfast was outstanding.
The cafe car needs improving - so does Business Class on the Surfliner. But Amtrak employees, on the wholew, are friendly and engaging.
No need to reinvent the wheel. There's a VERY simple solution to this. Why not just contract food service out the the same people who make airline food. Despite popular belief, airline food is NOT shitty. The quality is much better than years past. They are capable of making the thousands of meals and varieties needed, so it wouldn't be hard for them to set up a "train division" for their foods.
Its still of TV Diner quality. Amtrak can do better and serve Fast Food quality.
Not really, but even if it was, they could probably make just first class type meals, which is very good. I doubt that it's much more expensive.
When was the last time you ever saw food on an airliner?????????????
And yes, AMTK cand and does do better than that.
The dining car service is near PERFECT.
It's the dang CAFE CARS that need an ocean of improvement.
And yes, Airline food (the way it USED TO BE) might just be that improvement. Today's cardboard box with a apple, a packaged bun and orange jusice just don't cut it!
Elias
""while their dining car fare is exceedingly good, their snack bar" &
"food is half a preservitive short of disgusting. Not only that, but the swill they sell is extremely overpriced."
you find that out riding COACH from los angeles union station..
to chicago union station then to penn station nyc ....
having to face someone else besides your wife on a diner car.....
even on off peak hours, paying full price in the diner if you ride
COACH .....then the crummy little kanteen with WHITE CASTLE
microwave burgers !!! & the cold air conditioned cars IN THE COLD OF
WINTER THEY DO THIS FREEZING YOU 2 DEATH !!!
I mean folks if they just had told us that they INSISTED ON BLOWING
FULL FORCE COLD AIR IN COACH !!!!
I saw the greyhound parked at many AMTRACK AMRUUUUCCCCCKKKK !!!
( stations ) man i wanted to bail so bad and ride the dog again !!
@(greyhound buses)...man i wanted to GET OFF OF THAT TRAIN SO BAD !!
it was not just da' food folks it was almost coming down with da'
FLU from the COLD BLOWING AIR CONDITIONED AIR IN THE WINTER TIME !!
man what a bummer tha was all cross country !!
there is that FREEZER CAR BELOW ALMOST FROZE 2 DEATH NO LOL !!
NO HEAT AT ALL !!!!!!!!!!
Q: Why subsidize a national rail system? We don't subsidize a national airline.
A: That's right, we subsidize more than a dozen national airlines, not to mention a score of regional airlines, plus the private ("general") aviation business. Highways and airlines do not pay their own way, and never have.
Q. But isn't competition good?
A. Sure, and as soon as the basic infrastructure is in place, we can perhaps have it. Until then, talk about "privatization" of Amtrak is meaningless. The British Thatcher government privatized BritRail 10 years ago for ideological reasons after many years of underfunding that particular national rail system, and got utter chaos - and the demand from those "private" operators for more and more new subsidies, once they realized how bad the infrastructure was. In any event, despite the New York Times continuing uncorrected error on this subject, Amtrak does not have a monopoly on intercity train service. That was abolished in 1997. It has the guaranteed right to operate, which is important, but other operators can and do negotiate their own deals with the freight railroads. These tend to be high-end luxury trips costing many times Amtrak's ticket charge, but there is a market for that. So be it.
Q. 99 percent of travel is by air and auto. Why start supporting rail, which carries so few people?
A. Amtrak carries 22 million people a year. The commuter rail lines, many of which are state agencies that contract out to Amtrak, carry more than 400 million. But the 99 percent statistic is even more misleading than that, because it includes every trip taken in the auto, like going out for a loaf of bread, or shuttling the kids to soccer practice, etc., many of which would never be a candidate for an intercity train trip.
The vehicle miles traveled add up, and distort the argument - which is exactly what Amtrak's enemies want, since they figure journalists, busy and distracted as they often are, will not catch the con job being worked on them by the rigid anti-Amtrak kooks.
Q. Couldn't someone else run the national rail system?
A. Sure, we could tear down what we've got and start over, and spend all that tax money - the money the critics keep talking about - again; but does that make sense? Only if you want to punish Amtrak for its poverty.
Q. Wait a minute. Didn't Amtrak get $24.9 billion?
A. Yes, it did, over the past 32 years. Over the same period the highways got $750 billion. Guess which mode people find easier to use? But of course, that leads to sprawl. An example: in the greater Chicago area between 1980 and 1990 population increased by 5 percent, but land use increased by 50 percent. Guess who gets to pay for all those new sewerage lines, firehouses, schools, road maintenance departments, etc?
That's right, the taxpayer. Public transportation, and commuter and intercity rail, often using existing rights of way, could have easily served that population growth in Chicago (and other places with similar sprawl growth patterns, such as Phoenix or Atlanta and elsewhere) but we chose to pave it, and then suburbanize it. Talk about subsidies!
I am just home from an early morning b-day railfan trip on the J,M,Z,L,E,F Lines wow! I am gonna go to the Museum Store later to pick up my b-day present. Wow whoever says the J,L,M lines are empty are dead mistakened,
Of course they're not empty. They run so rarely, the trains start to get full from passengers waiting 10-20 minutes for trains. During the day at least. Happy Birthday!
Happy birthday!
It's mine, too.
You guy couldn't wait 2 more days to be "Born on the 4th of July"?
My father was born on the 4th of July. No kidding. He was even asked by an emigration officer if he realized the entire nation would be celebrating his birthday.
He'll be 85, incidentally. And if you saw him, you'd never guess his age.
You guys couldn't wait 2 more days to be "Born on the 4th of July"?
Don't blame us! I was already a week late and my mother was getting uncomfortable.
On the other hand, my son WAS born on July 4.
Well then, "He couldn't come two days earlier!" :) Actually my mom and I share the same birthday.
BTW, thanks for the typo correction, I tried to correct that, but it wouldn't let me, and when I tried to do it quickly, it went wrong again, it posted a second time with a different typo.
You guyscou ldn't wait 2 more days to be "Born on the 4th of July"?
I can almost hear The Beatles' "Birthday" from their White album!
Happy Birthday to both of you.
Same here. I'll be railfanning in Miami in a few week. I heard the weather is cooler there as well.
Well... happy (belated) birthday to both of you. My older daughter shares your birthday as well... she turned 35 this year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What better way to celebrate "Independance Day For The Hibitually Forgetful" than to come out to the July 5th Regional Rail trip. We will meet at Market East in time to catch the 9:30 R3 out to West Trenton and then probably ride back to catch an R2 down to Wilmington. If you can't make 9:30, we can hang out for an hour and catch the 10:30, but you have to let us know. CSX shuts down on the 4th so there should be a heck of a lot of freight action at West Trenton as they try to undo the clogs. If you need any additional info just reply to this or e-mail me.
If you can't make 9:30, we can hang out for an hour and catch the 10:30, but you have to let us know.
If I get on R3 train #6344 at 30th Street at 9:22 and find out we're hanging out for an hour at Market East (of course you'll walk to Suburban Station and back), I can get off the train if my ticket hasn't been lifted and the conductor lets me off without paying. Otherwise, I'll join the cadre of SubTalkers who say unkind things about you and to you.
July 5 is running a special timetable. Sort of an enhansed Saturday thing. So make sure you are aware of it.
If I get on R3 train #6344 at 30th Street at 9:22 and find out we're hanging out for an hour at Market East (of course you'll walk to Suburban Station and back), I can get off the train if my ticket hasn't been lifted and the conductor lets me off without paying. Otherwise, I'll join the cadre of SubTalkers who say unkind things about you and to you.
Problem solved. (assuming I join the trip, which I plan to do) I'll buy a day pass at 30th Street, use it to take the Market Street Subway to 11th street or a subway surface car to Juniper, and meet yiz at Market East. Also, the $5.50 cost of the day pass, which is valid for one train fare, is the same as the fare from Center City to West Trenton.
You're always thinking. Although we might take the R3 to Fern Rock for a BSS Express ride into town.
Although we might take the R3 to Fern Rock for a BSS Express ride into town.
I considered that. With a day pass we could do stuff like that at no additional cost. Or we could ride the P&W in from Norristown for the cost of a 2-zone transfer.
I am going to visit some friends in suburban Philly on Sunday the 7th. Their station is served by a line that begins in West Trenton. I will be taking NJT to Trenton.
Are the two stations within walking distance? Is there a shuttle bus that runs on Sundays?
Thanks.
Well, how far can you walk? They are like 5-10 miles seperate. There might be a bus route, but damned if I know what it is. Try to come on our trip on the 5th. It will be a load of good fun.
From the NJ Transit site it would appear that bus service connecting the two stations runs daily but then looking in detail at the timetable I would question that. If you want to do things that way you might contact NJT first and see if it's actually possible on Sunday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Small piece in some paper today says that the Feds just gave up control over the WTC site and turned it back to the Port Authority. The PA now requires all workers on the site to go through background checks, about which some rescue, construction or uniformed services workers are complaining.
And, BTW, they quietly closed the viewing platform. Instead, you look through a wire fence at the south end of the site -- which frustratingly doesn't allow any view of PATH work, although you see lots of IRT rebuild.
Down there on Saturday, almost all of the IRT seems to be covered over. Looks like there's some kind of station shell roughly where the Cortlandt Street station would be -- I thought they weren't going to replace that one? Anyone got any info.
It's most likely just a shell that will remain closed to the public until the WTC site is redeveloped. When they finally build whatever it is they're going to build on the WTC site, the IRT station will be there and ready to be re-opened. In the meantime, trains will bypass it on their way to/from South Ferry.
Alternatively, I wonder if they could be building a temporary IRT station to allow convenient transfers from the temporary PATH station once that opens. But that's purely speculation.
-- David
Chicago, IL
No temporary station is planned. The idea was to build the shell for the platforms at the same time as the track work.
>>Down there on Saturday, almost all of the IRT seems to be covered over. Looks like there's some kind of station shell roughly where the Cortlandt Street station would be -- I thought they weren't going to replace that one? Anyone got any info<<
They aren't going to rebuild the station right now but rather will provide space for it and wait until the plans for the overall rebuilding of the entire site are more defined before they rebuild the station itself.
They aren't going to rebuild the [Cortlandt] station right now but rather will provide space for it and wait until the plans for the overall rebuilding of the entire site are more defined before they rebuild the station itself.
This indicates they intend the IRT tracks to stay right where they are, regardless of whatever else gets built around it. Earlier posts (by AlM, J Lee, others) have discussed the grade difficulties re/keeping a consistent level for the underground transit mall that's been discussed.
One solution was to dip the IRT tracks for that station -- sounds like they're planning that this WON'T happen? Or is keeping it level just the quickest renovation and the path of least resistance?
Because of political considerations -- getting the IRT opened before election day figures to help the incumbents, mainly Pataki -- the decision to rebuild on the former level was likely made without concern as to what will finally be on-site, since that was the fastest option.
If the final plans do include an underground passageway all the way from the World Finanical Center to Broadway, then they may have to rethink where the IRT tracks (and any new PATH station for that matter) would be located. A walkway two levels below ground at Church Street would be able to pass under the BMT tracks and pass one level under West Street to the WFC with no change of grade, but would smack head-on into the IRT tunnel, so the options would be either raise or lower the walkway there and then bring it back down (up) on the other side of the IRT tracks, or lower the trackbed one level.
A walkway two levels below ground at Church Street would be able to pass under the BMT tracks and pass one level under West Street to the WFC with no change of grade, but would smack head-on into the IRT tunnel ...
This sounds like you're saying that the IRT is well below the surface of Church Street, which is one complete level above Greenwich?
It looked to me like the roof of the replacement IRT tunnel wasn't more than a couple of feet below surface level where the southern stub of Greenwich terminates at the edge of Ground Zero. (Where the new chainlink-fence viewing site is.) This seems to conflict with what I think you're saying.
I believe much of the early IRT is just slightly under the street surface.
Going by the slope of the land, the IRT tracks at Greenwhich in relationship to the BMT tracks at Church are about a level lower (and that's just based on eyballing it a couple of weeks ago from at West and Vescey streets) -- they're both about equadistant to street level (the IRT Cortlandt platform may have been just a few more steps down than the BMT was), but that's because the sharpest drop in the street level heading towards the Hudson is between Church and Greenwhich at the WTC site. That's why the underground mall in the old WTC site wasn't really underground by the time it got to Greenwhich and then West Streets and why the "Great Wall of Vescey Street" was created. The old mall was at street level by the time it crossed the IRT tracks.
To get under West Street and to the WFC, any new mall would have to be one level lower. Run it straight across the WTC site, and that would put it two levels below ground at Church, which would allow it to easily pass beneath the BMT tracks (and if run across Fulton, above the IND tracks and below the IRT 4/5 tracks). The problem is the IRT 1/9 tracks, which would be at the same level as the walkway, which would force the addition of either ramps, escallators and/or elevators to get around if a passageway is built and if the tunnel stays where it is.
If they drop the tunnel one level, that would do two things. It would allow the pedestrian walkway to remain at the same level from Broadway to Battery Park City, and just as importantly, it would allow the new WTC site to better conform to the topography of the surronding land, since it could slope down towards the Hudson along with the surrounding streets and not interfere with the underground walkway (or any mall that might be built there.
As we've metioned before, two new tunnels can be dug out beneath the site of the old Cortlandt St. pltforms while keeping the temporary tunnels in operation. Then when those are complete, the new tunnels can be hooked up and work can begin on a new Cortlandt St. station, one level lower and with a center platform set-up that would exite out onto the new pedestrian walkway/mall area.
Since Pataki already has said there will be no buildings on the footprints of Tower 1 and 2, doing this would also put the WTC memorial at street level, instead of one level in the air and walled off on three sides (four actually, since the two acres taken for the memorial will have to be made up somewhere, probably by taking the two acres from the old WTC plaza which was mostly east of the towers). The only possible conflict then would depend on the final location of the new PATH station.
Interesting analysis. I'll agree that political considerations - open the IRT by Election Day! - probably have played a role in the decision to rebuild at the same level. Which brings up the question as to whether dropping the IRT one level, to accomodate a future pedestrian walkway, would be something that could be accomplished at reasonable cost (federal 9/11 relief funds certainly couldn't be used for that purpose). As far as I know there's no recent precedent for that sort of job.
Wouldn't dropping the IRT one level cause it to slice through the tunnel that leads to old Hudson Terminal? From what I saw this past Sunday, the concrete base of the IRT tunnel is literally sitting on top of the Hudson Terminal inbound access tube where they cross at a 90 degree angle. I mention this because Hudson Terminal was named as a possible replacement for the PATH WTC terminal.
Yes, that's the problem I was thinking of -- but if the old Hudson Terminal location is used while extending the platforms to handle 10-car trains, the turn-outs and turn-backs entering and/or leaving the station would have to be lengthened from their former locations.
The longer approaches could allow them to slightly lower the level the tubes cross Greenwich St., to where they can get under the lowered IRT tracks and still have a gentle enough grade to get up and back down from the Hudson Terminal site.
Yeah, that makes sense. Hudson terminal now only has space for a small number of train cars, say like 5 car trains, from the diagrams I've seen that show it in relation to the WTC Path terminal. So yeah, once it is extended, they will need new tubes.
Actually the closest precedent would be right below the IRT 1/9 tracks, when the Port Authority built the new World Trade Center PATH station below the old tubes to Hudson Terminal and kept the old tunnel in operation until the new station was build.
Not an exact copy, but it certainly shows the project could be done (and the MTA has recent experience in connecting the approaches from the 63rd St. tunnel to the Queens Blvd. line that they can apply to connecting the new lower level tracks to the existing ones north and south of the WTC site).
The specific decision to rebuild the line "as was" was not necessarily political. I read in the Times a while back that none of the insurance money could be used for anything new or different; it could only be used to replace exactly what was there before.
Plenty of other politics to be found with this, however.
does that mean 2 towers indishtingishable from the old?
No - the article was only referring to the insurance policy the MTA had.
Silverstein had a separate insurance problem - the company considered the whole thing one attack - Silverstein considered it two, as two planes each hit a tower. The difference? Over $3 billion.
The above was in the papers prior to my vacation disappearance. I don't know whether/how it was resolved. Given how insurance companies can be however, I suspect he's stuck.
"I don't know whether/how it was resolved"
In litigation. Jury trial expected in the fall.
>>This indicates they intend the IRT tracks to stay right where they are, regardless of whatever else gets built around it. Earlier posts (by AlM, J Lee, others) have discussed the grade difficulties re/keeping a consistent level for the underground transit mall that's been discussed. <<
The IRT will be at the same level it was before which is basically 2 levels below Church St. The BMT is just below Church, the IRT located equal to one level below that (the grade of the land slopes downward from Church St. When the Towers were standing the Shopping Concourse was on the same level as the BMT (N/R). The entrances to the IRT (1/9) was on the Concourse but then you had to go down one set of stairs to get to the platform.
The PATH WTC station was 3 or 4 levels (I could never really tell) below the IRT. When you took the escalator down from the Concourse you actually passed beneath the IRT Cortlandt St station which was supported by a bridge.
If you went to the site today and looked thru the fence on the Liberty St side you will see the encased rebuilt IRT ROW. Just underneath you will see a large tube encased in iron rings going under it. I believe that the tube is what is left from the H & M tracks to the old Hudson Terminal station.
If you look at the "floor" of the site you will see what is left of the tracks leading to/from the WTC station.
The WTC PATH platforms are still visible near the northeast corner of the site.
It's not even clear that dropping the 1/9 by a level would be a good idea even if time, money, and politics didn't play a part.
Yes, dropping them a level allows for a nice straight passageway from the WFC to Church St. BUT it would doom the 1/9 passengers to an extra flight of escalator forever, and also would doom PATH platforms at the Hudson terminal site to be a level lower (since the PATH has to pass under the 1/9).
So overall, there's probably less time spent by commuters on escalators by leaving the 1/9 where it is and bringing the PATH back to the Hudson Terminal site a level higher than it was in the bathtub.
Another factor is: where is the sewer underneath West St.? If it's just 1 level below West St, the passageway to WFC has to go below it, which would mean it has to be low enough to pass under the current 1/9 alignment anyway.
When the WTC was first planned, the idea of moving the 1/9 was raised, and rejected.
Remember, you have to build "easy" grades. If you were limited to the WTC site, the grade drop for one level (12 feet or so) would be very steep. You would have to go out some distance in either direction.
It will be interesting to see how the new plans work out.
was there last Sunday...for the first time since last year...even though my sister works just up west street at BMCC,and I visit her when ever im in the city...the area still has that smell...just couldnt bring myself downthere....
Early this monring around 04:50am @ Whitlock Av waiting for #6 trains heading to work @ Queensboro Plaza & in the middle track coming out of the tunnel heading to yard was R62A #1925 coupled with IR/OR #717 ex R22 #7344 & #7314. In R62A #1925 there were less 10 Transit armed guards & no one in OR/IR #717. This is not the first time & the other time i saw was R33 #9016/#9017 with 3 flat cars & EP017 @ Roosevelt Ave Station two weeks ago.
Peace
David
That is because the work cars (IR, OR, EP) are not air conditioned. They simply slap on a road car onto the work consist so that they don't have to sweat it out all night.
Why?
Because we're all human and sweat and deserve cool air if possible.
I think he was asking why the work cars weren't air conditioned. My answer would be "why should they, when they can just slap on a road car?". Last summer I saw 0R/1R 719 paired with R-32s somewhat often.
On older single R Types, it is next to impossible to install the AC equipment. There just isn't any room for it. Adding a road car that already has AC solves the problem. Why should the Collecting Agents have to swelter in this heat? They're carrying heavy money bags throughout the night.
-Stef
There is no money train anymore. Go down to jay street and look at all the armoured cars. they have with really weird codes on the doors.
Dude, what the heck have we been talking about here?
Do you have a clue?
-Stef
Apparently he doesn't. He's in my killfile before the haitus, and I didn't take him out. Guess why he went in mine.
I see. Haven't killfiled anyone yet, but there's always a first time.
-Stef
>>>There is no money train anymore.<<<
UMMM, then explain to me the train I that I see EVERY MORNING at BPB, at about 0430, with the people with guns and bags of money.
Peace,
ANDEE
At this time trains are still used for some stations and trucks for others. Pick up and delivery times are guarded info. At some stations, armed Police Officers are also present.
In the future, please do not reveal such info if you know it.
I am a passenger. I am not bound by any TA rules. Anyone can see this train. I will continue to reveal this info as I see fit. Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
In the future, please do not reveal such info if you know it.
If they do things in plain sight of the general public, it is public knowledge and as such should not be suppressed for any reason.
why not retire these cars, and replace with Redbirds that already have AC? (and save a few from being dropped in the ocean at the same time).
For one thing, some revenue collection is done by truck nowadays. For another, the "Redbirds" are in married pairs -- while two cars are needed for the revenue collector, if the collector is to operate under its own power (as opposed to being towed by locomotives) it needs two cars with compressors per NYCT policy. For the married pair to work properly, one car has to have a compressor, while the other carries a converter (which produces 37.5 VDC to run auxiliary equipment on both cars). If "Redbirds" were to be used, in other words, either four cars would have to be run, or pairs of them would have to be towed by locomotives.
David
Interesting angle ... hadn't thought of that, but of course ... still, for the comfort of employees, maybe those rider cars might be considered for A/C confiscated from the dunkers ... while the revenue collectors don't break a sweat like the road crews, perhaps it would be beneficial for them as well. For the guys that *DO* break a sweat, it's amazingly insensitive to their health this time of year NOT to.
Hopefully there are options and some shop time ... didn't know the rider cars WEREN'T provisioned with A/C while being "used" by employees. CERTAINLY the people responsible for preventing a Potters Bar situation while they do their life-critical work ...
Yeah, Heaven forfend the guys stop sweating or have an enclosed space to sit in before they PASS OUT while working on the railroad without being charged for laziness (unless of course they actually clock in and out in the same seat) ... on brutal days, only makes sense that there'd be SOME comfort while not pounding the rails.
I actually think that the "keep a redbird or five with working A/C and some spares for replacements down the road" wouldn't be such a bad idea if the OR/IR's don't have any ... when a car ain't in revenue service, don't matter how much rot there is, I've SEEN and ridden some of what once qualified ... there's nothing like a LoV with NO seats, just plywood, windows you can't see out of and windows that wouldn't open in the summer because they'd been painted shut. And I was HAPPY to get one of those coming in or out of the yards just to save me the WALK. 8/9 hours in one? Me don't think so. :)
7694 and 7695 have just arrived. I wish I could do a transfer from 239 yard to Westchester. But I guess that's for the guys with seniority.
Interesting.
Could be we have our first "delivery gap" with the R-142As as last I heard the high car on the property was 7670.
Well folks, where do you think they're going? The 4 or the 6?
Maybe we oughta take a poll <>
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I dont know when these trains will make to Woodlawn, but as I was watching the Yankee pregame show on YES, they had a shot of the 161st Street station, a redbird in the 9200's series, was leaving the station on the downtown side.
Monday nite there was a set of R142a's doing simulated stops on the 4. This was on the Livonia El...
BINGO! 7661-70 at your doorstep....
-Stef
Last sunday there was a test run of the r-142 (bomadier) on the 5 line. with the doors opening on the wrong side.
Wish you had car numbers...guess who'll be doing special inspections next week? Redbirds being brought to RTO standards are taking place of R142s not able to provide RTO service.
LIRR is taking resumes for promotional ONLY to engineer until 7/8/2.
12 weeks no pay( they will try to hgelp coordinate the classes so you can still get a check), 9 months at 70% pay then full pay of $29+.
Ask your TD for access to the TENS/intranet for more details
Can any RTO employee apply??
Honestly I can't get a good answer. First I was told ANY employee with good sick and 1 year in title then only LIRR employees. I figured RTO would have an advantage over a car cleaner on the resume.
Does anyone know of they sell (sold) full size authentic rollsigns at the transit museum? If so, any idea how much they sold/sell for?
What about actual porcelain signs that hung in stations?
Thanks. JR
I'd like to SEE the entire rollsigns. All the letters and numbers and destinations and terminals.
Sit down on a Redbird and start cranking.
I'd like to crank a few of the older trains at the Transit Museum Station.
All you'd have to do is put the gear back into each signbox which the Museum staff removed.
They do not sell rollsigns at the museum anymore. It was done for a few years (back in the late 1970's) and then was discontinued (I have no idea why).
The only signs they have are a handful of number plates taken from retired cars.
Your best bet is eBay but be prepared to pay some high prices ($25 and up, up, up)
This rollsign is going for $149.+
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2118034285
There are couple of enamel signs up for sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2118023925
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2117469985
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2117462404
The transit museum used to have auctions a few years back. I have gotten quite a few things there. I wish they still had them. Why did they stop doing that? To name a few, I picked up a porcelain "Woodhaven" pillar sign there for $10.00. Also a large trackside "E To: World Trade Center (all times)" sign for $25.00, (which I unfortunately gave top a friend a few years ago) And a C one that went next to it "C To: Rockaway Park.........". I have a rollsign from the R46's that displays any possible N, R, G, F route possible and the JFK Express. The stuff was plentiful, and fairly cheap. I passed up a lot of stuff up at those quctions, just because there was so much to pick from. Will they ever do it again, and why don't they still do it? They must have a lot of "junk" that people would buy.
JR, Try SubwayAl@aol.com, he has the inventory for the Rollsign
Shop and is an ardent supporter of the RT collection at Branford.
:-) Sparky
As a result of a recent structural study on the Kinzua Bridge in McKean County, Pennsylvania, the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources has closed the 120 year old Kinzua viaduct in central Pennsylvania to rail traffic. The 2,053-foot-long viaduct, built for the Erie RR in 1882 was once the highest in the world. It was declared a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark in 1982 and was the mainstay of the Kinzua Viaduct State Park. Since 1987, the Knox, Kane & Kinzua Railroad has operated a 93 mile steam and diesel excursion service that terminated with a trip over the bridge, affording the passengers with a fantastic view. The bridge was found to be not structurely sound enough to bear the weight of the locomotives and cars of the excursion service. However, pedestrials will still be allowed to cross the historic bridge on the footpath.
repairable?
It didn't sound like it. Just your typical 120 year old metal fatiegue.
It's well worth a visit, in any case.
AWWWWW. That is a mighty good beautiful bridge. If only they built bridges like that anymore. I would LOVE to go over it in a railcar.
Isn't there one like that (although obviously shorter) on the Port Jervis branch?
They do. You just need a canyon deep enough.
-Hank
That's a beautiful photograph of a beautiful bridge.....
Marvelous.
Thanks for putting that up for us to see.
Thank you. I took it in September 2000 when I was driving US 6 across Pennsylvania and took a break to walk across the viaduct.
Can someone tell me about when the JFK express ran and what the stops/schedule was like? Thanks, JR
The JFK Express ("Train to the Plane")ran in the 1970's. It used the R-46 car and started at 57 St/6 Av (before the 63rd St line opened). It ran down Sixth Av, making express stops; it then utilized a switch to get on to the A line tracks and ran through the Cranberry St tunnel , following the A line to Howard Beach station. It was a super-express in that it made fewer stops than the A express train did.
It ran about every 20 minutes and was not a success, primarily because it was a train to a bus to a plane. It took advantage of times when A trains did not utilize the express track. Thus, today, this train could not be run.
The stops were:
57/6
50/6
42/6
34/6
West 4 St-Lower Level
Chambers
Broadway-Nassau
Jay St/Boro Hall
and Howard Beach.
Toward the end of its existance I think it also stopped at:
21/QueensBridge
Toward the end of its existance I think it also stopped at:
21/QueensBridge
Yes it did that, and the JFK express did last until the very early 90's because it did use the 63rd Street line to terminate at 21-Queensbridge (which opened in 1989) in it's final days.
I'm not sure if it stopped at 63/Lexington. Maybe, Maybe not.
I can't remember that either.
The JFK Express stopped at Lex/63, Roosevelt Island and 21/Queensbridge. There was also IIRC a $5 surcharge to ride the train and the TA Shuttle Bus to the terminals. If you took the A or CC to Howard Beach and then transferred to the TA Shuttle Bus, you would have to pay $2 additional to ride the bus.
Yes, that's correct.
Yes, it did. For a time, from 12/88 to 4/90, the JFK express was the only train that served 63rd. St. from 9 PM to midnight, weekdays. No extra fares were required north of Rock. Ctr.
The last day of service for the JFK Express was Easter Sunday, April 15, 1990.
Wow. I didn't realize it ran that long. I have a wall size subway map from ~198x and it had it on there. So then again, I guess it is believable.
It was also used by the folks of Howard Beach in the same way Staten Islanders use express buses ... they were willing to pay the premium fare for a one-seat comfortable uncrowded ride to/from work.
--Mark
The R-46's that were originally used on the JFK (the high 1200 "A" cars) were eventually transferred from Pitkin Yard to Jamaica Yard for use on the "G" line, where they stayed until December 2001.
The JFK Express lived the rest of its rather dull existance using 4-car R-44 units.
Mark
Pretty high class duty compared to the G...just kidding
:0)
So was the JFK Express equipment always based out of Pitkin? Or were some of the trains & crews based out of another yard? Did some trains layup north of the 57th Street Station overnight?
Before the 63rd Street Extension to Queensbridge opened, there was nowhere for them to lay up. Afterward, I don't know what the policy would have been. 63rd St was an active line. There was no layup track east of 21 St in Queens - just a wall.
I think I read somewhere for a while there was a tail track of sorts after 21/Queensbridge. There was enough distance on it to lay-up one train on each track.
I don't think the "Train to the Plane" took advantage of it.
The tracks definitely didn't immediately past the platforms; I don't know if a train could fit, though.
Don't forget the layup tracks (planned for 2nd Avenue use) behind the wall at Lex, though.
I often noted at least one 600' train which would almost always lay up east 21St. in it's early days, so the tracks extended at least that length east of the station, similar to Jamaica Ctr, lower level.
OLd rumor thas it the tracks from Jamaica Center on the E leval go above ground and could be connected to LIRR (fat chance).
It's possible.
Someone told me they heard from someone who got an email from someone who went out with their brother's old college roommate's cousin's uncle who once spoke to someone who looked like he worked for the TA but only was an extra in a movie that had a scene in an abandoned subway station that was made up to look like a real one that the tracks are connected to the line coming from 76th Street.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
The original plan I believe was to have the Archer Avenue line enter the LIRR ROW and continue on to Springfield Gardens, or something like that.
That was the plan,along with the upper lever going farther east to Queens Village. It was part of ''Phase Two''Program for Action..in 1968.
That's not a rumor. The upper level E tracks curve around and could have utilized LIRR ROW to serve a part of SE Queens that had no subway service. This is one case where LIRR resistance, lack of funding and FRA regulation, rather than NIMBY, killed it.
This is one case where LIRR resistance, lack of funding and FRA regulation, rather than NIMBY, killed it.
As for the FRA regulation, wouldn't the share of the ROW be allowed as long as the tracks are not shared? I believe subway and conventional trains can not run on the same tracks, but I assume that if they run side by side on seperate tracks that would work.
I believe it would too. But there were several factors at work.
If the LIRR resisted it enough, the MTA chair might not push hard for it. FRA had started a regulation enforcement crackdown, and so there would have been a lot of scrutiny.
Also, extending the subway further to Rosedale and building new elevated stations on that ROW may have cost more than was available in the 1982-86 Capital Plan (the plan which provided the funding to implement the Archer Av Extension. Recall that Archer Av was actually begun in 1972 and was stopped by the financial collapsae of NYC in the mid-1970's. Thanks Abe Beame, we really appreciated that).
Thanks Abe Beame, we really appreciated that).
Don't blame old Abe for the crash of 1975. Blame Wagner & Lindsey's addiction to increasing spending on social programs.
Nonsense. Wagner had nothing to do with this screwup. It was 100% Beame.
Abe Beame's foolish decision to switch $280 million from a capital account to an operating account to forstall a 5 cent increase in the fare, a meaningless gesture which he hoped would save his mayoral career, cost NYC $1 billion in federal matching funds (4 for 1). $1 billion in 1975 was enough to build a big chunk of Washington Metrorail; fund San Francisco's BART construction; in NY, it would easily have been enough to complete the Archer Avenue Extension with the lower level stretching to 168 St and beyond. Further, the 63rd St Extension, begun in 1968, would have been substantially implemented (connected to QB as now but with an additional express line).
The Board of Estimate approved 11 new lines. That was overly optimistic, but there is no doubt in any historian's mind that that at least the two projects with a good chance to be completed would have been done.
Beame was a weak, corrupt idiot who never should have been elected.
If only this jibed with the facts...
From 1974 to 1978, the city (and any other locality that wanted to) had the option of BORROWING up to 1/2 of its federal capital grant for current operating expenses, with the money to be repaid during the course of capital construction.
The $280 million figure "Ron in Bayside" cited is substantially correct (actually $281 million). New York State paid back 3/4 of the amount borrowed, with the money coming out of its own capital budget. However, it should be remembered that the fare DID increase during this time (from 35 cents to 50 cents in 1975). It should also be remembered that the $281 million would not have triggered a grant of four times that much in capital funds from the federal government, since the money ALREADY represented the federal outlay of capital funds for the NYC Transit System. (The above distilled from A NEW DIRECTION IN TRANSIT, by the New York City Planning Commission, 1979).
As to "Ron"'s statements about Mayor Beame, neither my memories of that time nor anything I have read since (other than on this board) point to his being anything other than a lifelong public servant who was "rewarded" for loyalty to his party by essentially being handed the Mayoralty (he was a Democrat in a traditionally Democratic city) but was simply overwhelmed by the task at hand -- and, by the way, as Comptroller during the second Lindsay term, he warned repeatedly that the city was headed for fiscal disaster if it didn't stop spending more than it was taking in, and Lindsay chose to plow ahead anyway. I have never seen any evidence, nor heard or read any assertions other than "Ron"'s, that Mr. Beame was corrupt.
But I digress...
David
One could argue that Beame's taking on the job, when he knew he was unfit to handle it, was a form of dishonesty if not outright corruption.
I think Beame took the fall for things he warned about while working under Wagner and Lindsey. Beame had a city that was going bankrupt and he did what he had to.
True, but the underlying cause of the economic crash was Lindsey's fault. His people knew that the problem was coming and did nothing to correct the causes.
The causes were not his to correct.
That's bull. He was the mayor. He had the power to at least stop causing damage, even if he couldn't repair past damage.
Really? He can dictate to the State of New York what to do? He can dictate to the feds what to do? He can dismiss the City Council and form his own?
A great fantasy you have there.
Now, maybe Mayor Street here in Philly thinks he can do that (and tries to)...
He could have proposed realistic budgets. May have been political suicide, but he could have done it.
"He could have proposed realistic budgets. May have been political suicide, but he could have done it."
You've made exactly the right point. Increasingly, for decades, there was a failure of will on the part of Democrats and Republicans alike (e.g., Rockefeller shares a lot of blame too) to acknowledge how much money there really was and how much we were borrowing from the future.
It still happens now of course, but much less so than then.
"It should also be remembered that the $281 million would not have triggered a grant of four times that much in capital funds from the federal government, since the money ALREADY represented the federal outlay of capital funds for the NYC Transit System."
Wrong. The planning commisssion can say what it wants, but yes, that 281 million could have triggered an additional federal grant. SF did it, Washington did it.
"However, it should be remembered that the fare DID increase during this time (from 35 cents to 50 cents in 1975)."
The fare increase you cite only proves my point - it should have happened a year earlier, when it would have done some good.
A federal grant could trigger a federal grant? That's not the way the UMTA 80/20 program worked. A locality had to come up with 20 percent of the cost of a project on its own. The federal (UMTA) government would supply the remaining 80 percent. The $281 million ALREADY represented the 80 percent. Under "Ron"'s theory, the federal government would have paid 160 PERCENT of the cost of the project or projects!
As to the fare increase, it can easily be argued that just about ANY fare increase in the history of the NYC Transit System should have happened before it did...what politician wants to take the blame for a fare increase? (rhetorical question -- please don't answer!)
David,
I guess I should have been more clear:
The 281 million was in the city coffers. This was city money, not federal money. By applying to UMTA's capital matching program, the money would have been matched up to 4 for 1. But in order to do that, Beame would have had to spend it on capital projects, not subsidizing the fare. That was where the screw-up was.
But you knew that already.
Ron
Reguardless, the fiscal crisis of 1975 was caused by problems outside of mass transit spending, or fare increases. It was caused by a culture which thought it wise to spend money at a greater rate than revenues collected. The future was continually mortgaged to prop up the present. The pyramid collapsed on Beame.
OK - but it doesn't excuse his screw-up. Since the transit money was separate and earmarked, a 5 cent fare increase followed by a Capital funds application would have created at least two new full length subway lines, and would not have made any other condition worse or better. His failure resulted in the need to fund subway projects from other pots which ran out as NY's fiscal crisis began.
>>>The pyramid collapsed on Beame. <<<
And since he was previously comptroller, he should have seen it coming.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't tell me what I know. What I KNOW is that the money was ALREADY federal money that was part of UMTA's federal capital allotment for the MTA. I have already stated this. In addition, I have also stated that the money had to be paid back. It was.
One generally doesn't go into a bank to get a loan using, say, a house as collateral, get the money from the bank, then attempt to get a bigger loan from the same bank using the original money as collateral -- it just doesn't work that way.
David
OK. I won't tell what you know. But don't post fictional BS like that. It isn't true and you know it (sorry about that, there I go again).
The ONLY way I can figure "Ron"'s statement to be true (and it takes some pretty convoluted thinking) is if he's counting the money the city/state had to pay back to the federal government as money that should have been capital funds, which would then be eligible for 80% federal matching. The ORIGINAL funds were already federal capital funds, and therefore they were ALREADY the 80% matching funds, so that can't be it (protestations to the contrary notwithstanding), but the REPAID funds came out of the city's and state's capital budgets, and, had they been used for their original purpose, might have been eligible to trigger matching federal funding. Clear as mud :-)
David
Of course, you're always right, there's just no other way.
If someone disagrees with you, then it's because THEY are wrong and must be re-educated.
Why kind of social programs?
The tail tracks went all the way to the 29 ST bell mouth.I used to see Q/B trains lay[ed] up over there all the time...
Take a railfaned window train through the 63st tunnel towards manhatten. When you see the track change from welded-rails-on-wood-sucken-in-concrete to welded-rails-with-pandrol-clips-and-sitting-directly-on-the-concrete also the rail is slightly raised off on a little platform that was made by a mold when they poured it.
There was no layup track east of 21 St in Queens - just a wall.
I can remember seeing trains lay-up on the tracks just east of 21st st queensbridge. I don't know if this was added as construction progressed, but it was there before construction on the connector was completed.
You're correct the tracks did continue east past the platform.
Wayne
The JFK Express always used 3 car R46 trains, right up till the end, not R44's.
Wrong, Chris R27-R30!!!!!!!!
The JFK Express used four-car R44's based out of Pitkin in its final couple of years. Look it up, pal. The R46's were transferred to Jamaica for "G" service. Just because my handle is "Q5Merrick" don't think I can't tell the difference between an R44 and an R46.
Mark
Um, I really hate to burst a bubble, but fellow buff, R-44's cruised the JFK line in it's last days.
Now, My question to you is, how could they run 3 car R-46s when the R-46s are married in either 4-car or 2-car sets, 3 cars are IMPOSSIBLE by the design of the car
R-44s my man, R-44s, and 4-car sets with 1 one door opening on the platform for the conductor to collect the fare.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
At the time, the cars weren't linked together. It was indeed possible to run a 3-car train of R-46s, and it was indeed done on the JFK Express. The R-44s made their way to the JFK Express around the time the R-46s went for their GOH, at which time all of the R-46s (except the last few) were linked into 4-car units.
David
There were several dedicated R44s running on the Bird with door modifications specifically for that line. One mod was a three position vapor switch that would either Isolate, run as JFK or all door open mode. This switch was placed at the number 4 and 12 panels under the windscreens. The switchs when set to JFK would allow for only the 4,5 and 11, 12 door engines to open forcing passengers through particular doors so clerks could collect fares, similar to duties of Conductors on the Dyre Avenue Shuttles way back then. I recall 100 as having those switches. At night, when the JFK ran shuttle service to 57/6, the switch would be placed to the all doors open position, when the Grand Street Shuttle and its ENY R27 garbage was retired.
Dude, why is the response to several different threads coming up with "Flickering lights Q&A" as the subject???
Anybody else see this or is it just my computer?
I see it too. I've seen it on 2 other ones of his posts...
It was a problem with the newer Netscape 7 I used. When I saved my handle and password, the cache was imprinting the original subject line. The problem should be corrected
The R46's were sent out for their GOH in the final days of the JFK express. I stand by my statement that the R44's never ran on the line at the end. It was 3 car R46's, even into April 1990.
Stand by the statement, stand clear of the closing doors...I don't care. It is a FACT that R-44s served the JFK Express at the end of its existence. I was on the last train. Its consist was (North) 286-123-233-146 (South) -- not a R-46 in the bunch. It left Queensbridge at 11:58 PM April 14 and was scheduled to leave Howard Beach at 12:56 AM on the 15th. It was supposed to drop out at Rockefeller Center, but it continued to Queensbridge and coupled to another 4-car R-44 set.
By the way, the R-46s went out for overhaul BEFORE the R-44s did...another fact.
David
I've personaly seen R44's on the JFK Express at the 21st Queensbridge station[Queens bound platform]
What part of R44's ran on the JFK Espress" don't you understand??? I rode the JFK on its final day and it was an R44! You can stand by your statement all you want. You'll be standing alone!
Mark
Was there a band of painted grey steel on the side. Normally where the candystripe would go.
Now, My question to you is, how could they run 3 car R-46s when the R-46s are married in either 4-car or 2-car sets, 3 cars are IMPOSSIBLE by the design of the car
Before their GOH, the R46 could be configured in many ways. The 3 car JFK trains used sets of A-B-A cars. Same for the R44.
Anyone have proof the R44's ran on the JFK express post 1986?
I do...read the post (by me) immediately before this one.
David
Must've been a fluke. I saw R46's, 3 car sets, in April 1990, all up & down the line.
R-44s were used on the JFK Express from the day the Archer Avenue Line opened, December 11, 1988, until the end of service on April 15, 1990. If 3-car R-46s were observed on the JFK Express in April 1990, THAT was the fluke.
David
The end might be near for the East Broad Top, narrow guage excursion railroad in Central PA (near Mt. Union). The 130 year old railroad was rescued from scrapping in 1956 and since then was run as a tourist line utilizing 8 of its remaining Baldwin 2-8-2 steam locomotives. During the past few years there was some optimism that a future inflow of public and private money could really make the EBT a majour tourist destination like Strassburg or Steamtown. Despite infrastructure improvements and a short line freight carrier starting up in Mt. Union and re-habbing the dual guage trackage there, none of the big bucks ever materialized and now the ETB is looking at Bankruptcy and abandonnment. Adding to this, the FRA has been beathing down their necks about a full inspection for their steam locmotives, something that could cost $80,000 each. The EBT, deemed a national historic landmark 38 years ago, is on the National Trust for Historic Preservation's list of most endangered sites. Its meager income can't cover debts -- let alone shore up deteriorating buildings or buy advertising that observers say could bring a threefold increase in its laggard 12,000-person-a-year ridership. Aside from money, investment could have alowed them to offer 7-day-a-week operation, instead of just weekend service. There are a whole bunch of deals and accisition intrigues that I won't get into here. But the long and shots is that they need 2 million dollars and any deals to get this money are sketchy at best.
The head of the EBT said "It could have become a valuable property," he said. Now -- historic value aside, judging from a financial standpoint -- if the EBT vanishes, the loss won't be felt. "The impact would be practically none,"
So please go out and try to support the EBT. Either visit or send a donation or promote it to your friends or rail organizations. There are no plans to shut down operations in the near future.
Is the R-32's still operating on the F Line?
Yes, often times during the off-peak. I like them so much better than the R-46's.
When is off-peak hours? I like the R-32's because they have the railfan window and I like the R-46 because they are fast, quiet & comfortable.
When is off-peak hours?
It is any time that is not peak hours.
What I meant was what time are off-peak hours?
Uh, any time other than peak hours..meaning rush hours.
What did you think it meant?
Rush hours generally defined as 6:30 AM till 9:30 AM and again from 3:30 PM till 8:00 PM. Of course trains start rush hour service a little earlier in order to have rush hour service on the whole line by then.
I didn't know what it meant, thats why I asked, Duh!
You can find them almost all the time on the F Line. On Saturday, I rode the Brooklyn portion and saw around 4-5 trains.
"Yes, often times during the off-peak. I like them so much better than the R-46's"
I like both the R-32 and the R-46, but I hope for an R-32 F when I am Queens-bound, because I love looking out the railfan window while going through the 63rd street connector. -Nick
One trainset stopped for me at Roosevelt on Sunday. Unless something's changed in the past two days, yes, they're still there.
Funny, I was waiting, and waiting for them at Stillwell Ave. on Friday just to get a glimpse of them, and get picture shots, but yet I still found R46's. Do they only go to Kings Hwy? What's up with that?
I don't think they're used specifically on the Kings Highway short-turns, but maybe the day you were waiting they were.
How long were you waiting? The F is a long line, and if the five R-32 trains happened to be clustered together, you could be in for a three-hour wait assuming they were even running to Stillwell.
On weekends they certainly run to Stillwell, since (IINM) all weekend F trains run to Stillwell.
(Yes, the top rollsign is set wrong -- I didn't do it, I promise!)
Oops!
Call me crazy, call me what you will, but I said this all before and I will say it again.....in my opinion the R-32 was the best thing they put on the F line. The trains are fast, the A/C is good, the PA is good, as for doors they are nice and fast. The R-46s as far as the
doors go are annoying slow, sometimes the PA either doesn't work, or is far too loud, and sometimes no matter how much you close the cab window, it still gets excess feedback, which means pissed off customers complaining about loudness. I think the best equipment on the F is the R-32.
I like 4 tracks better than 2 - but you're wrong about the new subway's ability to help relieve loads.
Look at the big picture: 6 tracks on the East side are better than 4 tracks today. End of story.
I've never heard feedback. Only on the old equipment with the corner cabs that sometimes have their doors opened while the C/R makes announcements. And they're leaning on it at the same time and start getting pissed off at the feedback.
While i was doing "On Time Performance" @ Queensboro Plaza & Woodside/61 St. I count 8 sets of R62A out of 32 car sets running today on7 line & more to come soon. Here is the cars # i saw today are.
North~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~South
2151-2115-2149-2123-2114-2102-2145-2135-2143-2153-2118
2134-2107-2110-2127-2136-2112-2130-2108-2117-2122-2116
1680-1676/2148-2125-2149-2149-2155-2126
1685-1681/2128-2142-2141-2138-2137-2140
1695-1691/2132-2100-2099-2150-2131-2133
1696-1700/2120-2129-2111-2147-2097-2139
1705-1701/2109-2101-2106-2098-2104-2152
1706-1710/2103-2105-2124-2121-2119-2096
Heh, how was the on time performance?
Seen testing today at 3rd av:
8173-8176 with 8185-8188.
Seen in service were:
8161-8164 with 8165-8168
8101-8104 with 8149-8152
8108-8105 with 8153-8156
8177-8180 with 8181-8184.
I will poat daily updates as trains are seen except when I am off or if I am pulled to work somewhere else.
I didn't get car numbers, but yesterday morning around 10, a set of R-143's was blocking the Jamaica-bound J/Z track at Broadway Junction (aka Eastern Parkway). Trains to Jamaica had to use the middle track.
So, that's the first appearnce for 8177-8180.
Thank you!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I rode 8137-40/8157-60 from Livonia to canarsie. I did see the 8101-04/8149-52 set.
Thanks for the info! Anyone seeign any sets other than what I post can feel free to post the info.
Arcane detail department:
BMT line QW is on its way out.
At 8th Ave station, there are new chaining markers on the wall, with tape over the measurements. Also there is an automatic which has already recieved its new number plate.
The joke is: suppose they ever extend the Canarsie Line west again--say to Javits Center. That would mess up the new chaining.
In that case, they'll rechain all over again!
What is chaining?
See thejoekorner at http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/chainall.htm.
In short determining the distances.
My buddy used to survey for the NPS and says that a "chain" is literally a 66 foot chain, that laid over the land, is used to determine lot sizes. Like if you laid out 10 square chains you'd have an acre, or something.
Luckily for mental cases like myself, the "virtual" chains of NYCT are 100' long.
The chain is whatever length is convenient for doing the survey.
For railway surveying, 50' or 100' stationing is textbook.
[For railway surveying, 50' or 100' stationing is textbook.]
Jeff, would that 'textbook' be the one written by the noted track 'guru' Bill Young?
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of Railway Engineering by Wm. Hay, which is now in its 10th edition or so.
EXACTLY! Also, the rods and chains make miles easier to understand.
Who the hell can remember 5,280?
But:
3 feet=1 yard (we all know that one)
5.5 yards=1 rod (16.5 feet)
4 rods=1 chain (66 feet)
10 chains=1 furlong (660 feet)
8 furlongs=1 mile (5,280 feet)
An acre is 4 rods wide and 1 furrow (a corruption of forty) long, so 10 square chains or 43,560 feet2.
Nevertheless, isn't this much easier to figure out:
10 meters=1 decameter
10 decameters=1 hectometer
10 hectometers=1 kilometer
1 hectometer2=1 hectare.
Of course, the metric system is easier to use in our ten-fingered society, but like Galileo, it ignores the human dimension in worshipping strict mechanistic materialism.
As a historical aside, in the 20s, the entire US was surveyed 66 ft at a time with the chains. That is where we got the North American Datum Standard of 1927 (NAD 27) that every survey until 1983 when a more accurate NAD 83 was surveyed. But some local jurisdictions still base their surveys off of NAD 27, just because it take too much time and money to redo all the maps.
They can start a new work classification on the TA: chain gang! :)
I can hear them singing now. "We've Been Working on the Chain Gang!"
"We've Been diggin the on the SA Subway, all day long."
Too bad this website don't have audio.
Obviously a meaning of 'bad' of which I am unfamiliar.
Nothing stops you from EMBEDding audio into your posts, but I won't tell you how.
Just as well. We probably couldn't sing that well. ;-)
Look at this site. And Also on this google serach. Just remember this will suck bandwidth like hell and you better something BETTER than a T-1.
The problem with sound is that some of us look at subtalk at work sometimes.......sound won't go over to well.......please don't.
No, if the extension is long enough, they would create a new letter chain, like they did when they extended B5/6 north via 63rd.
B5/6 end N of 57th st, the become T1/2
There's always negative numbers!
Yeah, like on my new microwave! If you enter a negative number, it chills your drink! :)
I thought you could only make your microwave do that if you turned the AC plug upside down!
I tried that, but one prong is bigger than the other...
and remember about the ground prong.
If I grind up the prongs, the filings get in my pizza.
I never saw a plug/outlet compatibility issue that couldn't be solved very efficiently with a hammer.
Hey, Paul: I'm looking forward to when the Canarsie Line is RESTORED to it's original configuration....this of course would mean demolishing several backyards from Flatlands to Seaview Avenue...(hey, if Robert Moses could do it, why not the NYCT in the interests of 'progress'?)
;-D
I think there is also a high school along the route.
Tear it down! (sorry, couldn't resist) ...
Cut a big hole through it and shore up the building. If the west side el went through buildings can't any other els?
"If the west side el went through buildings can't any other els?"
The West Side el was not an el but a railroad. Many freight spurs dodge in and out of the buildings they serve.
It is also likely that the line was there first and that they built the buildings around it.
Freight Railroads are forever leasing out the land along their right of ways to firms who will then use the railroad for their shippings.
Out here BNSF is rather tough about such buildings (including their own!)... USE THEM, PAY RENT ANT TAXES, or GET THEM OFF OF OUR LAND!
They sold the depot in our town to the local florist, with the stipulation that he move it from the land in 30 days.
Actually not the physical building itself, just a portion of it's athletic field, and part of it's yard.
Actually, if you look at a Mapquest arial map, you can trace a lot of the right-of-way, even now.
Seven years ago, it was intact. My grandparents home was at 1515 E. 95th St. The line ran behind the house. They had a gate to it, but I was forbidden (and too short, the lock was behind the top of the gate) to go through it. There were houses built on the ends of each stretch. I remember them building the one on Ave M(N? fuzzy...) in the 80s.
-Hank
And PLEASE, put back the wooden shack and the grade crossing at 105/Turnbull while you're at it. That was my FAVORITE part of the old line prior to the screwage they did when they (kaff kaff ahem) "fixed" it. :)
Will do, my man...
How much work is involved in rechaining a line? Don't they have to change the number plates all over the line, in addition to relabeling all the switching machines in all the towers? How much is this going to cost, and where are they getting the money?
- Lyle Goldman
They'd have to change all the number plates on automatic signal
heads and also the model boards in the towers. Interlocking signals
and switch machines are not designated by chaining number. Since
there is a project (some might even say a conspiracy) underway to
replace ALL of the signal equipment on 14St/Canarsie, there is really
no additional work or expense. (Presumably they have just taken
the existing chaining numbers and made an arithmetic correction,
as opposed to sending someone out there with an actual chain starting
at 14 St & 8 Ave, plus a foreman, flagger and RTO flagging
supervisor).
Actually the chain was payed out from a special flat car, all the way from 8th Ave to Eastern Parkway, during a G.O.
It was the same chain that was once stretched from 6th Ave/14th all the way to the intersection of the NY&NJ state lines in the middle of New York harbor. Once there, the tugboat placed a surveying marker marked "IND ZERO" onto a bouy.
> all the way from 8th Ave to Eastern Parkway
Why only to Eastern Parkway? Why not all the way to Canarsie?
- Lyle Goldman
Canarsie is BMT Line-P.
But now that I think about it, there really is no reason not to, especially with the re-alignment at Atlantic...
Has anyone, (Doug?), been out to Canarise and seen evidence of a chaining change to Line-Q?
The Chain is only so long, and then they got to reel it in and move to the next section.
Oh... welll... yeah wait until the next section is finished with its realignment, er why do it twice!
Elias
David G. and I were up at 207th about an hour ago and I got this photo of an R-38 train heading into the portal to the A-line. The lead R-38 seems to be #3950 (first in the series) and has its flip-dots saying "B."
We also saw the R-110B in the yard...I got a photo but it is kind of bright. I think I can tell that it is the R-110B but you might not believe me.
Here is the R-110B. It is the train closest to you and set back a bit.
I can tell it's a R-110B from the black on the front of the car. Although if you hadn't told me, I probably wouldn't have seen it at all.
Yeah, that's my reasoning also. Credit goes to David J. Greenberger for spotting it in the yard.
But cleavarly the side rollsign is blocked by the signal tower (?).
oh yeah, I planned it that way. you got me. game over.
You can always jump back in time and grab some R38s on the B when the World Trade Center Terminal (for switch replacement) was closed and the E was extended to Euclid.
You know, on these new rollsigns, since we're in the year 2002, I'm sure that it's set up so that whatever letter is on the front is what the whole train is showing...side rollsigns and all.
You'd be wrong. Only the R44/46, R142/142A, and R143, which have all-electronic signs (with the exception of the 44/46, which have a front curtain). As delivered, the R44/46 had side curtain signs that could be changed automatically. I had never seen them work.
-Hank
Really?
Interesting....
I would have assumed that by now, you'd just dial up "A train", for example, and every sign on the train would read "A train".
I stand corrected....thank you.
That would require 6 motors per car for curtain signs, plus the wiring to make it work. Since the cars are almost always assigned to the same line, the roll signs are rarely changed. Each motor needs to be maintained, and so on...
-Hank
Ah, I understand now..thanks again!
The Multis had a chain driven sign mechanism operated from the cab, IIRC. In later years, it tended to malfunction. Consequently there would be instances of incorrectly marked trains.
Denver's LVS have motorized roll signs, four per car, which are changed by entering a two-digit code on a hidden keypad above the cab windshield. For the most part, they work fine; however, once in a while you'll find a sign showing an incorrect destination.
Were the side cutains on R-44/46 like the the R-68? any pics?
I haven't seen many pictures on this site of them but from I have seen, it's the route curtain in the middle and the destinations to the left and right of them.
I haven't seen many pictures, but's the route bullet in the middle and the destinations to the left and right of it.
I haven't seen many pictures, but's the route bullet in the middle and the destinations to the left and right of it.
I have a roll sign from the R46's. It was the entire length and width of the space where the digital signs are now. The bullet with the route letter was to the left, and the destinations were on the right on top of each other, for example: E Jamaica Center, with World Trade Center right under Jamaica Center
Well actually the E isn't on my rollsign I was just using that as an example. I only have any possible route combination of the F, G, N, R and JFK Express.
Those were the replacement signs. The original signs had strip maps for the insides of the cars, and had the bullet in the middle of the exterior sign, with a destination to either side. The last replacement signs before overhaul had the bullet to the left, with the destinations one atop the other. These were one-piece signs, as were the signs of the R40/R42 before overhaul.
-Hank
Ahh yes, thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I must have the replacement one. Like you said it's one piece, with the destinations on top of each other. Come to think of it I only vaguely remember the other one you are talking about. Obviously, my rollsign is not as old as some, as Jamaica Center is mentioned on a few of the possible routes, believe it or not with the G train, and I think also some route with the F also. They accounted for many different possible (totally unused) routes. I believe one is G- Jamaica Center and Smith 9th, etc. I got to pull that out and see all the others one day. Another is F - 57th/Ave of Americas and Coney Island. There is no reference to Queensbridge/21, so it's pre-63rd Street Connection in 1989.
Does anyone have a picture of the interior strip maps? The exterior signs with centered bullets show up in a few shots on this site, but I'm curious how they looked inside.
As for the R-40, are you suggesting that the three-window signbox (which I have trouble imagining dates only from GOH) revealed three sections of a single sign?
As delivered, the cars had a single-piece roll sign. The best photo I could find is this one.
-Hank
How did it look inside? One-piece or three-piece?
I can't find an interior photo that has a decent angle to show the sign. However, if the exterior sign was one piece, I can't see how they would fit the additional equipment for three independant interior signs.
Thinking about it, I just pulled out my 'Evolution' book. Page 261 shows the interior of an R42, the interior sign is one piece, with a strip map on the inside. Page 258 establishes the same sign was used for the R40/42/44/46. There is an interior photo on page 259 that looks like the same sign, and the photo is undoubtably an R40.
-Hank
No, I know it's a single roll -- but is each display on the roll in three distinct sections, to be seen through three separate windows?
I have trouble believing the R-40's interior sign layout is not a product of the late 60's/early 70's.
The interior sign is a strip map. That precludes framing it.
-Hank
R40 through 44 used the same side signs. Click here for an example.
On the "inside" was a route map that would run from right to left, down, then right (for very long routes like the D or F), with transfers to other lines shown as arrows going through the stop markers. The northern terminal, route letter and southern terminal appeared in the "middle" of the map.
W4 Roosevelt Continental Parsons 179
+-- o ---...--+--......----o----...---o---...---o
| E,EE,GG,7
|Delancey
-o- QJ, M 179 Street Coney
| Jamaica (F) Island
|
| B,D,N
+-- o ---...---o---...---o
Smith Church Coney Island
(sorry about the alignment, just quick and dirty, not going to fuss with spacing...you get the idea)
The R46 was similar but moved the route designator to the left and had the terminals stacked over each other to the right. Click here for example.
The interior strip became a single line in the color of the route with the route letter at the left and right, black dots for stations and the station names slanted towards the right at a 45 degree angle to the line and color dots of transfer below the station dot.
Thanks. So was the current R-40 three-window display installed at GOH or was that an earlier change?
The abomination must be GOH or later. From the pics I've seen here, it looks to be a really cheesy knock-off of the R68.
Have you never seen it in person? Inside, it looks nothing like what's on the R-68.
(Sorry about the picture quality -- the bright light outside fooled the camera.)
What's wrong with what was used on the R-42?
Is that a BROWN S?
-Hank
Orange upside-down "S" probably from a G.O.
No, an orange S. It should be brown. It's on a J shuttle -- service was split for the weekend at Canal.
If that's orange, one of us needs to adjust our set.
-Hank
Looks like you need to adjust yours, Hank... looks orange to me!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Look at the rolling stock pictures on this site. There are a bunch of pictures that show the original rollsigns, and blue stripes on the sides. The 44's were different from the 46's though. The 44's had the destinations on the sides and the bullet in the middle. The 46's had the bullet on the left hand side, and the destinations one on top of one another to the right of the bullet.
May have been some kind of emergency put it for some reason?
Nah... you can easily play with those flip dots. It's just a large knob with letters to select. Maybe the T/O wanted to do some "tests".
It looks like a 9. That's a yard move, not a put-in. The safety chain is down. 3950 is the first or lowest number of the R38's.
It's either a B or an 8.
I don't think you can select 8 on the dial inside.
You can select any alpha-numeric character, and 'blank'.
-Hank
Some trains have dials and others have pushbutton controls, similar to the ones on buses. Which trains have which? Is it an R-32 vs. R-38 thing?
I've definately seen R32 Phase II with the dials out in Coney Island on the N.
I've never seen pushbuttons in R32/R38.
-Hank
I saw one on an A train -- R-38, I think, but possibly R-32.
YOu can.
A 9??
What?
No, it doesn't.
You know, it's amazing how people can't just look at it and say, "wow, a R-38 signed as a B".
It has to turn into a big discussion "It looks like an 8...it looks like a 9....yada yada yada".
I don't think it is so big. If someone honestly thinks it says 9 rather than B then let him post that.
Ah, you're right, I was halfway kidding.
The Very Unusual G.O. that has swtiched the C and D line roles along the CPW has confused the public. People were like is this running express only today, or tomorrow? There was mass confusion, especially during rush hour where angry commuters were upset about being late. The Conductors didn't announce it until 145 Street. It seems that there were not enough notices to tell the people of the massive G.O. that was really hitting service on the D hard.
would have liked to have seen it :(
It's in effect every weekday, 5am to midnight (including rush hours), from today until August 9. Get used to it.
The extra three minutes on the D isn't a big deal, although most express passengers think they're saving at least twice as much time as they actually are, so I can't blame them for complaining. The loss of access between Washington Heights and CPW/8th Avenue local stops, and between CPW local stops and 8th Avenue, is a big deal. Notice that there's no direct access to 50th Street from the north.
I'm sure the SB platform at 59th was not a pretty sight.
I assume this is due to work on the switches south of 145th. (But why isn't the GO in effect on weekends, then?)
i guess they think they'll be able to get more done during the weekdays since its 5 days than in 2 days.
I'm assuming the work is keeping a switch or section of track somewhere out of service at all times, but that only with weekday headways does that force the C onto the express track.
Wait, I think I've answered my own question. If the work is on the switches south of 145th, forcing all Concourse trains onto the local, then the C can't also fit on the local, so it has to run express. (Yes, all the way to Canal -- that's the first point after the D peels off that it can switch back to the local, although by that point it needs to stay on the express.) But late nights the A and D can both fit on the local with no difficulty, and on weekends the B doesn't run, so the C can fit in its usual slot. In either case, the D could go back to normal at 125th, or it might just run local the whole way.
In any case, the way service is running now, at nights and weekends there's no direct access from local stations to 6th Avenue, but on weekdays there's no direct access from local stations to 8th Avenue.
Getting back to your suggestion, if that were the case, then wouldn't the GO run over the weekend with two weekdays off rather than only on weekdays?
Just checked GOs on the MTA website. Apparently Ds will be going down to West 4th via the A late nights until August 9th, at the same time the Cs are rerouted.
It's not the switches in Homeball Alley that are the problem. IIRC, I saw trackage that was skeletonized in the 59th street area, with a low-speed restriction on trains diverging onto the 6th Avenue track as well as 8th Avenue locals.
That may have also been the reason the D was cutoff south of 145th some time ago.
The skeletonized trackage south of 59 Street has concrete now, and trains are running fine. Now the main question is, what is going on between 145 Street and 125 Street to cause such an odd go, no one has been able to point out the exact construction they are doing, and when I was on the C express yesterday at 2 there were no construction workers in sight. Is this just a test to see how people would respond to an all Local D? Or a test to see how CPW service would take it if the system was like this. Very interesting situation.
Don't assume the work is at 145th. It could be anywhere; if it's on a switch that's currently out of use, you might not see it. The work may even be all the way down at Canal, at the crossover the C normally uses to get from the local track to the express track to continue to Brooklyn (although that leaves open the question of why service reverts to normal nights and weekends). There isn't enough capacity on the line for three services to (comfortably) share one track, so if the C is forced to run express at any point between 145th and Canal, that forces the D onto the local, and vice versa.
Does anyone have a copy of the actual GO? (Alex? This affects B service as well.) Which section of track is out of service?
I haven't been on the IND since Monday. How's the signage, both at express stations and at local stations? Anything on C and D trains?
<<<How's the signage...<<<
In a word, AWFUL, as usual.
<<<Anything on C and D trains?<<<
I can't speak for the C train. But, I have yet to see even one sign on a D train yet.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was headed downtown from 81st yesterday. There were 8.5x11 paper sheets posted on pillars saying take the D because the C runs express.
There were lots of announcements being made too, but they weren't very clear. No suggestion other than "construction" of why the change was in place.
I just missed a D, had to wait close to 8 minutes (!) for another, and meanwhile an A, a C, and another A passed us on the express track. But then we passed the A and met up with the C at 59th.
Not surprisingly, it was a madhouse in the front at 59th as people from the 10-car D train tried to get into the 8-car C train. I was in the front car of the D, and amazingly, in rush hour with an A stuck behind it, the C held its doors open so long that I was able to get into the not-as-crowded 2nd car of the C.
Was the B not running? There's supposed to be B service through all of this, even though the SB midday B is simply a Manhattan-only version of the D that terminates on a different track at 34th.
A month or two ago, on a Sunday, I was waiting at 81st for a SB C; I needed to transfer at 59th to an A to get to south Queens. I watched a D, an A, an A, and a D go by on the express track, followed by a C on the express track, before a jam packed C finally stopped for us. (And people wonder why I think the D should run local when the B doesn't run? With the A running at 10-minute headways, it would have saved me 20 minutes of waiting on the platform.)
I think the B is supposed to run, but out of 5 trains I saw headed downtown (D, A, C, A, D), none was a B.
Are they running anything besides R-68s on the D now? D trains are limited to 8-car R-68 consists.
ummm,no.and also the B and D have always used 8 cars.the R68's being 75 feet long only permit 8 of those cars to fit in the stations so its nothing new.
Sorry. I'm home today. Tomorrow I'll be on the N and back on the B on Friday. I'll look tomorrow.
The N? Since when are you on the N? Have you been talking to Fred lately?
Holidays are weird. The only reasonable EARLY job I could get in the South was an N put-infrom CIY. I start at 0556, clear at 1428 and get paid 9h30m.
Heh, I completely forgot that tomorrow was a holiday. Yes, you definitely want an early job. Everything's running on Sunday schedules except for some extra service on a few lines in the evening, right? (Some sort of V service would be really nice, but I don't expect to see any.)
Tomorrow is a Saturday schedule.
Really? The published schedules all say that Sunday service runs on New Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day.
No V in either case. Some people are going to be very confused trying to get to the fireworks.
Stations is operating on a Sunday schedule today and regular on Friday. This means if a part-time booth or a stairway is closed Sunday it will be closed today (7/4/02). Note- in some areas supervision will have a stairway or part-time booth open for crowd control.
The GO says it is due to switch 133 A & 133B being taken out of service, but neglects to say where exactly this switch is. As a guess, since the homeball at the south end of 59 St on the local track is X132, the switch causing the problem is just south of 59 St. More tomorrow, when I get back on the B.
That would be either the switch that allows the C to continue down the local track past 59th or the switch the D takes to get from the express track to 6th Avenue. The latter makes sense -- when the B isn't running, the D can switch from the express to the local north of 59th and then use the switch the B normally uses, but weekdays the local track there is too crowded, so the C and D have to switch places, and the C is stuck on the express from 145th to Canal. Tell me if I'm close.
Has anybody here stood at the railfan window on an A or C heading south out of 59th lately? How does the switch look?
I would not be surprised if the MTA is testing routes (along with the construction, if there is any construction). It's very rare to have construction-related reroutes during RUSH HOURS. I rarely say this about any routing plan, but if the MTA plans to run the A, C and D this way then I think it's a TERRIBLE plan. Riders in the Bronx and Westchester would be shafted.
From what I've seen, they're more riders using the Concourse than the A/C lines north of 145 Street, particularly during rush hours. In addition to this, Bronx riders generally have a longer trip to Midtown (or lower Manhattan) than the riders coming from Washington Heights/Inwood area. With all this in mind, logically, at least one of the trains from the Concourse should run express in Manhattan. Yes, I've heard it's only a three minute difference, thanks to all of those speed timers on the CPW Express track. However, if I'm a rider who has to make the trek from the Bronx or Westchester to midtown, I do not want to hear about spending an unnecessary extra three minutes.
Another serious flaw has to do with the lack of options on the CPW. There's no 8th Ave service at CPW Local stations. There's no 6th Ave service on the express track. As it has already been stated before, 59 St-Columbus Circle would be a mess thanks to everyone trying to transfer. People at 50 St-8th Ave heading uptown would HAVE to transfer regardless whether they want an express or local station. Imagine these riders having to use the E during rush hours in either direction.
I hope that this CPW re-routing is temporary, a plan needed because of some SERIOUS flaw on a track somewhere. I hope that this is NOT a plan that the MTA implements in the future. I feel pretty bad for Concourse riders who has to put up with this.
> In any case, the way service is running now, at nights and weekends
> there's no direct access from local stations to 6th Avenue,
> but on weekdays there's no direct access from local stations to 8th Avenue.
Can't people transfer at 59th Street?
- Lyle Goldman
Of course they can, but then it's not direct service.
You try convincing people at CPW stations that they need to take the train that comes and transfer at 59th. Some will continue to stubbornly wait.
Some will continue to stubbornly wait.
Let them! After about an hour they'll go upstairs and take a cab, more space for the rest of us!
Or go upstairs and change to the IRT.
I'm referring to the ones at local stations (who can't get the C anymore), none of which have transfers to the IRT upstairs. The IRT is 10-15 minutes away from most CPW local stations -- and isn't the IRT crowded enough already?
so what else is new,thats how dumb people are.
Is there a Subway Station in NYC that is Air conditioned?? It would really do good for this damn heat. I went Downtown Brooklyn Today on the C Line from Nostrand Ave., and the station was hot as hell, the MTA should definately consider installing A/C units(Money, Money & More Money). Today it went up to about 94 degrees, at Nostrand Ave., it must have been 105 degress.
Grand Central on the 4/5/6 and there may be one more station that has A/C.
And by "A/C" I don't mean the subway lines.
I know what you meant by A/C.
Well, the TA, I think, calls them "air-cooling units," which takes air from above ground, cools it, and spews it out, unlike "air-conditioning," where air is blown over freon or other gas and then comes out through tunes, correct me if I am wrong...
BTW, 14th St-Union Square (4/5/6 and L platforms) have fans...
Cleanairbus
The Hell with the damn Fans! We need A/C units and fast!
damn straight, brotha
when you put in the billions of dollars necessary, then you can have air conditioning. You act as if its the easiest thing in the world to do.
1. MTA= VERY little $$
2. Air Conditioning= A LOT of $$
Hmm...
And while we're installing Air Conditioning, let's allow our fleet of fairly old trains (R32, R38, R40/40M, R42, R44, R46)to run another 20 years until we can make up the money we lost putting in Air Conditioning.
Fans actually do help somewhat. Compare the temperature inside an R-33 single versus an R-36 without functioning A/C and you'll see.
It's a convection oven vs conventional oven in any subway car with no A/C on an 100 degree day like today.
Take a ride on WMATA on some humid summer rush hour day in D.C. -- their stations are air-conditioned, but most of the time you've got to stand right under the vents to get any real effect. And those stations are far deeper underground and with vaulted roofs, which (theoretically) should allow the warmer air to rise above the platforms.
Putting in enough AC units to cool a low-ceiling IRT Contract 1/2 station (especially an express stop) with waterproofed walls that hold in heat would be a pretty costly venture, though I suppose they could plop a few 20-ton units into the center median vents on the upper Broadway line (you can just picture the NIMBYs howling already about all that hot air blowing up onto the street, can't you?).
If the MTA really did want to experiment, putting some AC units in the few NYCTA stations that do have vaulted roofs to allow the hot air to rise (B'way-Nassau/High/York on the A/C, 168th on the 1/9, Clark on the 2/3) would be the best places to start.
Your idea about the upper broadway line might work if the vents went 6 feet above the surface of the center median... nobody on the street would feel the heat.
Actually, IIRC, 168 on the 1 line doesn't too overly hot due to its depth. I know for a fact it does not get very cold in the winter. Can anybody add to the heat of this station recently?
What about 181st/GWB Station????? [On the 1] Doesn't that have a similiar ceiling to 168th? Orrrrrrrrrr what about Roosevelt Island? (I know it's a high ceiling, but what about a trial run there?)
That is the definition of 'air conditioning'. You don't need to use a chemistry set to do it. The way the system at GCT works is the same way it works in most large buildings. There is a cooling unit that DOES contain freon (or ammonia), which is used to cool water that is then circulated through blowers within the area to be cooled. This reduces the amount of chemical coolant required for the system, which in turn reduces the costs associated with the system. You also don't have to worry so much about chemicals leaking, since the chemicals don't circulate outside the cooling unit.
-Hank
Doesn't "coolant" fit in there somewhere. And an A/C also takes hot air as well while putting cold air in. Ever put a thin piece of paper in front of an A/C and have it sucked into the filter?
Yes. Read my post again.
A home A/C unit functions differently from a commercial unit in that it actually cools and recycles room air, rather than drwing fresh air in from the outside, cooling it, and blowing it out indoors. This is usually more efficient, since once the unit is running, it's sucking in pre-cooled air. Most room A/C units have an 'air exchanger' vent, which can draw fresh air as well as recycle room air.
-Hank
Wow, I didn't know that. That used to be one of the hottest stations. How does it work though? Doesn' the trains suck all the hot ait from the tunnels in, and when leaving, suck all of the cold air out? It seems like it would be a loosing battle to air condition a subway station, especially at a station like Grand Central, where there never seems to not be a train in the station.
It is. The only reason the did it is because they are "borowing" drinking water from the street and pumping it through coils. They aren't burning money on a compressor/heat pump system.
the air conditioning doesn't really cool the whole patform level. It might affect the temp a little bit, but to really feel the cool air, you have to stand right under the "air-cooling unit." I think there are about 3 or 4 units per platform.
I think the whole thing only gives a few degrees benefit but sometimes that is enough so you don't pass out.
Grand Central. 4,5,6 platforms, big black units on the celing.
Ok, where do you place the heat/cooling exchange unit? We got ours on the roofs of serveral buildings. Since this whole city had short buildings, it is not that much of a problem.
And which city would that be?
- Lyle Goldman
Wash DC. Does someone else have AC in their stations too?
The New York subway and its cars were designed to be ventilated, not air conditioned. The whole problem revolves around the fact that air conditioning doesn't really make hot air cool--it simply transfers the heat from one place to another, PLUS the heat of operator the air conditioners is added the heat transferred.
So we would have to contemplate semi-sealing the stations and transfering the heat alrady inside the station (including from hundreds of warm bodies) PLUS the heat from inside the subway cars PLUS the heat generated by the train a/c PLUS the heat generated in actually air conditioning the stations, all out onto the street.
Yikes!
Get rid of the resistor coils on all the trains. Wasn't the R-142 supposed not have resiator coils because they have Alternating Current engines?
Gee, it's that simple, why didn't any of the people who spend everyday thinking about these things think of that? You should be making six figures with ideas like that. Start your own consulting firm.
Why did David Gunn get rid of most of Amtrak Conslutants?
Cause he's looking for people with brilliant ideas, just like yourself!
Was quite brutal in Main street on the 7 line and 42nd and 6th. Wherever the trains sit around blowing hot air, it's over 100 in these.
the trouble with air conditioning stations is:
a) They're poorly sealed, thus you'd be blowing cool air out all over.
b) The A/C loads would likely be amazingly high. Remember - the A/C system would not only have to absorb heat from hot air comming in, but people, subway air conditioning, and...braking loads. Yes, that's where all that energy goes when you stop a train, no matter how you do it. You'd need to site condensor units and evaporators and all those goodies, and maintain them.
If the NYCTA had platform edge doors and good air exchange in the tunnels, it might approach a reasonable cost to run A/C in stations, but even then, it would be a lot. And the subway wasn't designed for edge doors (which wouldn't work in lots of places anyway)
The problem is, you're just putting way too much heat into the tunnels....
> <i>might</b>
Since when do we close an I tag with a /B tag? You're ruining the rest of the page. Don't you preview?
- Lyle Goldman
Simple emphasis tags don't warrant a preview, unless you use enough that you end up confusing yourself. 99% of the time everything is fine!
And the page was still quite legible.
Maybe I'm just showing my age, but I don't recall hot stations being as much of a problem in the "good old days" before the subway trains were air conditioned. One would think that being underground would normally be somewhat cooler than at street level.
I think there are two issues here:
1. The extra heat generated by the A/C units on the trains.
2. The contrast between an air conditioned train and non-air conditioned stations makes the stations feel even hotter.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed, You are exactly right. Studies of heat in subway tunnels go back to the planning of the first subway. Certain stations (Grand Central, notably) have always had such a heat problem that A/C may be the only answer. Otherwise it was an issue of propert ventilation, and YES, stations are hotter because of the A/C units on the train.
Air conditioning stations is problematic--it's like this--suppose you have two rooms in your house that you want to buy wall A/C units for. Where do you put the units? In a window or an outside wall, of course, so the heat can be dispersed outside. If you did it the way the subway system does, you would place the air conditioner for one room so that it vented into the other room. Then you would put a humongous air conditioner in the second room vented to the outside which would have to remove the heat from both rooms as well as the heat generated by the units themselves.
Int he "good old days" there were more vents in the subway. Now half the vent have been sealed up. At Union Turnpike near the water leak they closed off %70 of the vents. Also the subways used to have vents that were electrically controled. Now they have been, I would guess becuase of deffered mantenance, left to rust apart being fully open. If you look into the vents at 179st you see there are the rods that controlled them broken off but still there.
I'm surpised that they didnt make the new subway stations like along Archer Av. And 63st Air Conditioned. I would think it would be easier since they were building these stations from scatch.
At least one of them (Sutphin Boulevard) was supposed to be air-conditioned, but budgetary constraints precluded it. There was to be a cooling tower at 144th Place.
David
At Parsons/Archer, there is duct work in the locker rooms and crew room and other places for air conditioning. After that was done, they stopped the project due to cost.
When will this website be updated with pictures & more information?? After a while, I get tired of looking at the same pics over and over again, same goes with the information.
Err some of us are gathering more information during this nice sunny (but humid) summer so you can review them in the fall.
BTW What line did you railfan today and what were your impressions?
Will be going on Hudsen Line tomorrow and later this week on the Harlem, I will get to see the diesels there.
I took the C Line today from Nostrand Ave. - Jay Street with my friend to walk around and buy some games, so I didn't really railfan the subway today.
Did you think of visiting Public Affairs at NYCT HQ to pick up a few items?
Hey you are welcome, provided Mr Pirmann approves of the pictures, to get out there and take your own pictures. Get a cheap disposable camera, and take some subway pictures, after the camera is spent, just get a photo cd from the developer. If you can get out in the subway, just start taking pictures of everything. Someday, the R32 will be gone, if you get photos now, you can put to rest all kinds of problems later, since it is now that they are in the configuration that works, and that is the one that most people will be intrested in someday. I notice from most of you posts that you are reasonably close to the A/C Fulton Ave subway, heck, one day when you're bored, drop 6 bucks, get a cheapo camera, drop another 2 bucks to get into the subway and start snapping.
The IND Fulton Subway's area on this site is mostly the work of one man, Wayne Whitehorne, with the inevitable sprinkling of Joe Testagrose pictures. Past Grant Ave., most of the pictures are about 30 or so years old, all you have to do is shoot some pictures of a station, and after grant ave, it's all elevated, so you don't even need a flash. If you don't feel safe getting off the train and waiting for another, either go somewhere else, or just stick your head out the door and snap the platform (Ok, the T/Os or C/Rs may not approve of this advice, but how many railfans are there out there, like one for every train?).
I have some photos of various things, like 10 rolls of film, dating back nearly two years, if I ever get it developed, I'll definitely consider sending Mr Pirmann some of my better stuff.
Good luck with your pictures, NYCsubway.org is made by it's readers.
Nostrand Ave. is the closest Subway Station to me and the A Line is what I take to school everyday (except the summer), Actually, the LIRR is closest to me, 3 short blocks away. I live in Crown Heights, Brooklyn.
There you go, just go out one day when you have some time, and start taking pictures, I would advise to get a 35 mm camera, so that you can develop your own pictures and such, but a 35 mm camera can run rather high, and also the chemicals for developing pictures can be expensive. Like I said, any pictures would be good, even if your initial attempts suck, just throw them out, grin and bear the money, and get more film, eventually you'll learn not to take pictures into the sun and other things. NYCsubway.org is not just the resonsibilty of David Pirmann, but also all those who view his website, we all have a responsiblity to add whatever we can to improve the site.
Thankx! I had an awful good time taking all those pictures. I think I finished up Fulton IND in 1999 or so. It's been a while since I've contributed, and for that I am fallible. To wit: I just did a two-day fan trip in DC on June 24-25, and I have FIVE ROLLS (5x25) of station and train pictures, most of these (IMHO) are fine quality. Every time I try and convince myself to get off my ass and start scanning them, the lazy side of me (the one on my left shoulder) finds a way to keep me from doing it. I just have to get off my duff and get moving again.
wayne
The sticking yer head out part would make great slapstick...But alas in about 4-5 years all of the subways in Hong Kong will not allow that, because of those stupid things called PLATFORM SCREEN DOORS!
Don't let the PLATFORM SCREEN DOOR happen to you, kids! Save yourselves before New York gets even AN INKLING of the idea! Run....run...runnnnnnnn!!!!
If you feel so strongly that there's something missing from this site, I'm sure nobody would object to you going out and doing some footwork yourself.
Once upon a time I looked at this site and was miffed that there was no line-by-line description of Chicago's CTA system, as there was with most of the other US systems featured here. So instead of bitching about it here on SubTalk, I went out with a camera and notepad and did the whole system myself. It took me a long time to get all the photos scanned and the text written up, but at least it was done.
-- David
Chicago, IL
All this talk of contributing to the site reminds me...I have a mess of scanned images of San Diego's Coaster commuter trains that I meant to send in. Need 'em, Dave?
By all means, Acela, go take some pictures and send them in. You'll enjoy this site a whole lot more once you've made it your own by contributing. I sometimes go look at the ones I've posted just for the ego trip. :)
Mark
Well, as with most FREE things, if you don't like it, you're free to go elsewhere.
Thit's why they call it free. "Acela", cut Dave some slack.
Noooooo!!! I wasn't getting angry or anything, I just haven't seen the website being updated in so long.
Uh, gee, instead of complaining, why not volunteer to "add information" to this site or take your own pictures and ask Dave to have them posted.
--Mark
I don't think Dave has a lack of contributors. He has about 70 photos from me which isn't up yet. He's probably just too busy to load up them right now.
I don't think Dave has a lack of contributors. He has about 70 photos from me which isn't up yet. He's probably just too busy to load up them right now.
Quite true... he's got a half dozen of mine as well that are still pending. What with his recent move and working full time - you and I know that he has a real job and that this website is simply a hobby, but there are some posters out there that don't seem to be conscious of that fact - he simply hasn't had time to put them up.
But to the originator of this thread - go ahead, take pictures (send your best ones to Dave), study the history of the lines, focus on some area of minutiae and learn all you can about it, then write it up and offer it to Dave. If it serves to expand our collective knowledge, chances are he'll include it on the site. (And if it needs some editing for style and grammar, you can send it to me first - I'll be glad to review and clean up your text. Just put it in a straight text email rather than as an attachment, I don't do Microsoft anything around here.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How true...
(I've got about 40-50 still outstanding myself.)
Uh, gee, I wasn't complaining, I just wanted to know why the site hasn't been updated in so long.
That's REALLY rude. I can't believe you wrote that.
You know, people have to work, and have families, and have things to do with their lives.
How can you possibly complain about this website? This is a fantastic website, which takes a LOT of work, I'm sure, to keep up.
If you don't see anything new here, then go look at other parts of the website...I'm sure you haven't read the whole thing.
Plus, there are a lot of other websites to go look at.
like he and they said
Like I said I wasn't complaining, I just wanted to know when was the site gonna be updated, Damn!
OK, but next time don't make your comments sound so accusatory.
If you had said something like: "This site has not been updated in a while, does anyone know when it will be updated again?", then you would not put everyone on the defensive and gotten reactions like you did.
I agree.
This site is here your and (our)enjoyment not for your convenience (the same applies to Harry's site and the sites of others).
Updates are at the webmasters discretion and leasure.
IIRC - AcelaExpress is a teenager. I won't say anything else.
But I'm sure the Pig will.
AcelaExpress is a teenager. I won't say anything else.
As David so rightly replied, I will.
AcelaExpress obviously isn't the brightest bulb in the bulb box, but it has nothing to do with the fact that, unlike you, he has fewer than 100 billion Frequent Orbital MilesTM. Since Acela isn't an interplanetary astronaut, the number of times he has gone around the sun means nothing.
>>> Since Acela isn't an interplanetary astronaut, the number of times he has gone around the sun means nothing <<<
Maybe you haven't noticed it yet, but there are wisdom cards to be picked up on each orbit, somewhat like brass rings on a carousel. Some gain wisdom with increased orbits, some do not.
Tom
These wisdom cards do not exist, as only astronauts can reach out of the sides of the Earth and grab things.
These wisdom cards do not exist ...
You just proved Old Tom's statement. Just because you haven't picked up any of them yet does not mean they don't exist. Indeed, it is possible that you have picked up a few but simply haven't accumulated enough to realize it yet :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think so.
No matter how much you try, I will never believe in the myth that is "age." These metaphorical wisdom cards are just another concoction made up by the establishment to continue to oppress a group of people. Because it's no longer fashionable to put down inferior races or the inferior sex, they no longer exist. Age classism is the same.
well maybe if i get this job with MTA Metro North, i can get some exclusive pictures.
What job? I'm taking the Assistant Conductor's test on the 11th in N.White Plains. Could it be that one??
Are you new to this board? If so Welcome to SubTalk!
I ain't even gonna say anything...I was talking to the poster of the message before mine (in the thread)....don't get me riled up, since I'm still in a unA/C'd room [after work] and it's still hot as hell here.
Buzz off. There....that's the extent of what I'm gonna say.
Can we look forward to your contributions to the site?
In the Metro Area we have the following that could be done
Shore Line East
LIRR line-by-line for those branches we dont have
NJT- Port Jervis, Main, Bergen, Pascack Lines; Gladstone Branch
Do you go on vacation- perhaps you ccan cover the rail system where you go on vacation?
Contrary to popular belief, our terrifc webmaster does not sit 24/7 at his PC awaiting material to add to the site. All material submitted has to be approved by him and he adds to the site when he can.
I have some contributions. Take a look at "Around New York" and "GRAND CENTRAL" and "NJ TRANSIT" then "Newark Division - Northeast Corridor."
You'll see the photos I took at Metuchen, Edison, and New Brunswick. I can post the photos Dave didn't put on the site if anyone wants.
NOTICE TO ALL OF THE NEGATIVE THREADS ...............please note !
well then go and make your OWN TRANIST WEBSITES like i do also
I thank Mr. David Pirmann for this site at least we could all say
>>>>>>>>THANK YOU<<<<<<<<<< ...........!!!! i do !!!
Typical Salaamallah good photo.
thankz !! appreciate dat !
Well - at least the RFW keeps you happy.
Looks like the train they used in the movie "Speed".
i do remember a los angeles subway train in some movie somewhere
guess i will have to look up the movie (speed) ............
Volcano. (Tommy Lee Jones and Ann Heche)
oh yea !! ok saw the ads however i will check it out soon !!
thankz !!
Yer welcome mon.
Not only am I a railfan, but I'm also the moviebuff.
my son is into making movies with his low bubget self ...........
you know student and experemental films etc...
i am into shooting transit videos / digital stills etc........
oh well...........boooooooooooooooorrrrrrrriinnnnnnggg???
lol !!
my son is into making movies with his low budget self ...........
you know student and experemental films etc...
i am into shooting transit videos / digital stills etc........
oh well...........boooooooooooooooorrrrrrrriinnnnnnggg???
lol !!
Don't you worry, I'm sure you'll find all of the stuff I took from Hong Kong last month will be quite stimulating for you...as soon as it's posted on the site, that is.
-J!
Hi,
I've been backlogged on contributions because I've got a bunch of other (better paying) projects that need my time right now. Sorry to those who have sent me items and I've been lagging.
Anyway, I was out in California this weekend myself and got some new photos, here's one to tide you vultures over.. :-)
One word. Wow!
E_DOG
Curb side pick up? I thought only buses did that! :-)
A trackless trolley.
>>> Curb side pick up? <<<
One of the minor advantages of designing the line as a tourist attraction (this is near Fisherman's Wharf) rather than basic transportation.
Tom
>>One of the minor advantages of designing the line as a
tourist attraction (this is near Fisherman's Wharf) rather
than basic transportation.<<
NOT! While the riders may be headed to tourist attractions once they drop fares it IS BASIC TRANSPORTATION. Besides giving the trolley car the curb lane in a NO parking block is safer for riders and easier for layovers between runs.
Brooklyn and Philadelphia, among other cities, had boarding islands for streetcars in some locations.
Some of the boarding islands from Third Avenue Railways, still
exist under the EL on Westchester Avenue in the Bronx for the
rubber tired vehicles.
;-) Sparky
If it were basic transportation, they would have used a fleet of same, new cars. The designers had more in mind.
Boy, if I could ride that to work, I'd shoot my car.
Nice shot, Dave... thanks for posting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
snazzy!
Ah yes, San Francisco. That's a great railfanning city!
Studying the paint scheme on this particular PCC in the city on the
bay, it looks like the representative of the city, that ordered but
never ran its PCCs in service prior to selling same to Cleveland. Louisville
;-) Sparky
SF does have a PCC in that scheme but that wasn't it. Check the newly revamped F Line page for a roster.
Dave, Thanks for the link for this lazy one.
BTW, you DO like night shots & take excelent photo then too !
Mr rt__:^)
Dave, close but no cigar ... It's Muni 1058 in the 1936 Chicago CTA
paint scheme. As one seasons, preception diminishes.
;-) Sparky
Right. The original poster was asking if it was the Louisville PCC in the picture. I said that it was not.
Dave, I was the original poster, and it was conjecture.
As stated, >>>"As one seasons, perception diminishes"<<<
and it was a night shot.
;-) Sparky
No problemo, we all understand very, very thoroughly.
Whenever Dave has the time.
I am thinking about just roaming the system tomorrow and taking some photos outdoors. Maybe Brooklyn and catch some R-40's on the Brighton. Anyone want to come? E-Mail me. It would be around 5 or 6 PM. I will decide on the number of responses I get :)
This is kind of late. I will be railfanning on NYC tomorrow but I don't have any real plans, I would come.
Im debating about the Brighton or the Sea Beach lines. I will check my E-Mail sometime in the aftrenon. So let me know. NYant78@AOL.COM
Well good luck! It's gonna be hot down there. Sorry I can't join you, it's just too damn hot. Stayin inside an air conditioned building all day!
What are "New Haven Railroad SPVs"?
The 'seldomly powered vehicle'. One of Budd's more interesting failures. It was an attempt to replace the RDC with a newer design. they were notorious for power plant failures and inability to run in general. IIRC, there were plenty of engineering changes to them to shut up the unions and various other concerns. They were certainly biazzre too - pneumatic throttles and such. A few remain at MN's dead line. They were buiilt in the early 80's, and pretty much were Budd's last gasp, along with the M-3s and such.
Also, a few are in service on Shore Line East (as non-powered trailers).
Did they have cantanary? Third rail? Where were their diesel engines?
No, SPVs were strictly diesel-powered. They never ran into Penn Station or Grand Central Terminal. On Metro-North, they were used only as shuttles from Waterbury to Bridgeport and from Danbury to Norwalk on the New Haven Line, from Poughkeepsie to Croton-Harmon on the Hudson Line, and from Dover Plains to Brewster on the Harlem Line. On Amtrak they ran from Springfield to New Haven on the Inland Route. I don't think they ran any further than New Haven or Springfield in Amtrak service.
I think that's about it for where the SPVs ran. Did other railroads run them or have any plans to purchase SPVs for use?
I'm not 100% on this, but I believe the diesel engines were under the floor, and they were 'direct' drive, as opposed to diesel/electric like most locomotives. Only one truck was powered. The engine connected to a transmission, and the tranny to the wheels, just like your Chevy Nova.
-Hank (pun intended)
Right about the engines being under the floor, but they had a hydraulic transmission.
Each truck was powered, albeit on only one axle.
Diesel hydraulic locomotives have existed (I believe Krause-Maffei built a few) but were judged not to be practical and performed poorly compared to diesel-electric.
Diesel-mechanical (eg through a transmission) may be OK for a relatively light-weight single-unit DMU, but its use would be ridiculous on any kind of mainline MU or pulled train service.
"Diesel hydraulic locomotives have existed (I believe Krause-Maffei built a few)"
Actually more than a few. When diesel first replaced steam, the Western Region of British Rail went for diesel-hydraulics with Krauss-Maffei transmissions in a big way, had a fleet that probably ran into hundreds, and operated most of their express services with them for quite a while. British railfans had some affection for them -- they were distinctive, a bit different from the general run of boring diesel-electric locos.
"Diesel-mechanical (eg through a transmission) may be OK for a relatively light-weight single-unit DMU, but its use would be ridiculous on any kind of mainline MU or pulled train service"
Again, when Britain first dieselized in the 1950s and early 1960s, the first-generation DMUs were mostly diesel-mechanical. You could hear the gear changes; you could see the driver changing gear if you were in the railfan seat right behind the cab. They weren't just single cars; most were in two- or three-car units, and these were sometimes coupled together into longer trains. I have seen eight- or nine-car DMU trains made up of these first-generation cars. A very small number of them still exist -- I saw a two-car unit in revenue service at Manchester Piccadilly station just the other day. As I remember they had a speed limit of 75. The second-generation DMUs in the UK (from the "Sprinter" class 150s on up) are all diesel-electric, and more recent models like the 158s and 170s can do 100 m.p.h. On trips with relatively frequest stops, they can give overall journey times better than the 125 mph "High Speed Trains", because they have better acceleration.
Fytton.
A very interestinbg post.
Did they ever stall?
Most of them have been converted to unpowered coaches; a few may have been converted to cab control cars for SLE.
-Hank
There are some cab controlled SPV's running on Shore Line East, saw it today in Stamford.
At one point Metro-North used them for service on the Hudson line between Croton-Harmon and Poughkeepsie. They were easily strangest railroad car I've ever ridden. The first time I rode one... When it starting accelerating I was thinking... "what the heck is this thing" - especially when it got up to speed and sounded like it shifted onto a higher gear.
Wayne
Budd cars (RDC's) and SPV's are not necessarily a dead concept, it was just a pity about implementation. This SPV sounds like it was a diesel-mechanical DMU, I'm not surprised that it had problems given the kind of weight it was being asked to push around. Hydraulic transmission, with two 600hp truck engines, one pushing each truck with separate transmissions, should function pretty well. Time for someone else to try again perhaps? I can certainly see three-car DMU's running on Amtrak's Springfield line. That line simply doesn't have the traffic for locomotive haulage.
AEM7
Budd RDC's operated through a shush drive so they were basically diesel hydraulic.
Were the SPVs direct drive or diesel combustion-generator-electric engines on trucks?
I think direct drive via an automatic transmission.
Budd RDC's had a Detroit Diesel 6-71 (inline) engine with a two-speed hydraulic transmission. The engine was the same as in GM "Old Look" transit buses (pre-1959).
Budd SPV's had a Detroit Diesel 6V92 engine and the same transmission. The 6V92 engine was in most RTS transit buses...but not all (NYCTA had quite a few with 6V71's as I understand).
Budd RDCs had a pair of Detroit 6-110 engines, same as the classic Greyhound Super 7 Scenicruiser bus.
No, the Greyhound "Super 7 Scenicruiser" -- in reality the MCI MC-7 "Challenger" did NOT use a 6-110 engine. It did not have ANY 6 cylinder engine. (The GM PD4501 Scenicruiser originally had TWO 4-71 engines, and due to synchronization problems, they were re-engined with the 8V71's in the mid-1950's.)
It used a Detroit Diesel 8V71 engine. I worked on, and drove, all too many of them. The 8V71 started use in tour/charter buses with the GM PD4106 and MCI MC-5's (both around the same time) and was basically the bus industry standard for many years until the 6V92 came out in late 1979.
Prior to the 8V71, the "standard" engine in GM and MCI buses was the 6-71 in line engine....
>>> Time for someone else to try again perhaps? I can certainly see three-car DMU's running on Amtrak's Springfield line. That line simply doesn't have the traffic for locomotive haulage. <<<
Someone else is trying again. The Colorado Railcar Company is developing a new DMU that they are saying meets FRA crash standards. Bombardier, Alstom and Siemens also build DMUs that are doing quite well overseas. All would be good candidates for the Hartford-Springfield line.The old ADtranz Flexliners would have allowed through service to New York, Philly and DC to continue. The Flexliner came in both diesel and electric versions and both can operate in the same train from what I read about it. That would allow a diesel Flexliner to come down to New Haven from Springfield and be attached onto an electric Flexliner that came from Boston and the entire train could continue on to Washington. No need to change locomotives or do complex switching routines to combine trains like they used to do before the wires were extended to Boston.
The crappyness of DMU's aside. They would never preform a couple at New Haven. It takes too long. You have to connect all the air pipes, HEP and MU jumpers as well as preform a brake test. Accross-the-platform transfers are more efficient.
It probably does, and that may be why Amtrak reduced the Springfield line to primarily shuttle service with connecting trains at New Haven. The way Amtrak used to combine southbound trains at New Haven really took too long, with all that switching and locomotive-changing that had to be done, so cross-platform transfers are better than that.
You guys need to think about track capacity, and asset utilization...
But it's true, from a customer standpoint, it's better to have just a cross-platform transfer.
AEM7
While you may think that about the DMU's we have used (i.e. Budd RDC's...) the Adtranz Flexliner trains did it all automatically...and could actually do it while moving under 15 miles an hour. Autompatic couplings, etc.
Colarado's units is about 20 years behind current state of the art. It's cast truck, no air bag suspension, not monobody, carbon steel, and about 30,000 lbs lighter than even an FRA compliant DMU should be. Given the past history of the company, and their (lack of) experience building rail cars, I doubt it'll go anywhere.
Aren't they the very same company that had the contract to build the rolling stock for the "Marlboro Train" a few years ago?
See what happened there.....NOTHING.
The two EMD F59PHI locomotives, PMCX 0001 and PMCX 0002 were built, and sat for a long time at the Livingston (MT) Rebuild Center. They were sold to Metrolink (southern California) about 18 months ago and they are Metrolink 882 and 883.
Yes, they are. Supposedly, they're going to test the DMU with the MBTA, but I suspect even the (T), weary of junk, wouldn't buy them. Not that I don't give the company credit for trying, but they're quite litterally 20 years late and a few tons short. Only a moron would order a carbon steel railcar today - stainless is lighter, stronger, lasts longer. Ditto for not having airbag suspension, which is all but standard in any type of passenger car today.
They need to take another 1 or 2 passes through the design and start otimising it.
Intertestingly, they claim it outperforms and EMU, yet their EMU benchmark is 0 - 55mph in 1 minute, slower than any MU I know of in the US. If you math out the power : weight ratio they quote for the 'comparison' EMU, it works to a 125,000 lb car with 400hp. I don't know of any cars with those specs in the US, except maybe the ACMUs, but those are effectively obsolete technology.
Here is a blurb from Trainweb.net
During the April - July 1980 time frame thirteen SPV2000's (Self Propelled Vehicle that would go into the year 2000) were manufactured and delivered to the Connecticut Department of Transportation for use in Amtrak and local shuttle service. Most of the SPV's were destined for use on Amtrak's "Inland Route" from New Haven, Conn. To Springfield, Mass. Via Hartford, Conn. Others would cover the shuttle service on both the Danbury Line from Danbury to South Norwalk, Conn., and the Waterbury Line from Waterbury to Bridgeport, Conn. This was Budd"s last gasp to bring back the "old" Budd Car in a modern new model.
Bud's idea that the RDC would return once again, didn't pan out. The harsh New England weather raised havoc with various systems. The Self Propelled Vehicle came to be known as the Seldom Powered Vehicle. Numerous breakdowns occurred thus necessitating calling a diesel out to rescue the train. Other cars caught fire causing other problems. After just over five years in service all were withdrawn from service.
Most of the dead SPV's were stored in New Haven, Conn., while others were stored in Wilmington, DE. The Connecticut Department of Transportation facing some expansion problems needed some more passenger equipment to cover and protect routes. However, the funds just didn't exist to purchase new. Arrangements were made with Amtrak's Wilmington Shops to rebuild the remaining fleet into modern coaches and cab cars. Out of the original thirteen car fleet would emerge four cab cars and seven coaches.
MNRR also had some and although they were very maintainence intensive, they managed to keep them running enough to haul 7 round trips a day.
Here's a pic:
YEp, thats what saw on the SLE train.
Athern's RDCs were driven with RUBBER BANDS! These did not prove to be so reliable either, and so on my railroad, we stripped out the motors and use them as cab cars on push-pull consists. Extra control stands from theses cars were used to convert two conventional consists into push pull service. (Those trainsets have hotel power provided by motor generator sets in the combine car, allowing any loacomotive to handle the train.)
Elias
Not only were Athearn's RDC's powered that way, but also early versions of the F-7's, GP-9's, and "Hustler" industrial switchers. It was known as the "Hi-F" drive; designed in the 1950's and lasted into 1961 the latest. The RDC's and Hustler kept them right to the end of their production runs.
There is a company that makes gearing replacement kits...it's known as Ernst Manufacturing. The kits cost around $12-15 each. There is a lot of negative comment about the Ernst conversion kits, but there is also some positive comment too -- in rec.models.railroad group in Usenet.
I, myself, geared one of the RDC.s The kit does one end only, and worked just fine for me. In fact, it worked fine enough that I did the other truck as well, with a second Ernst kit.
I tried the Ernst kits. They worked fine regearing some diesels, but I'd tate tem only fair in the RDCs. Maybe I am not a patient enough model builder to polish and fit all of the parts so exactingly.
Elias
I was involved with The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina for many years (the shop closed in 2001 after 55 years in business, but my direct involvement only spanned 1985-1996) and we sold and installed many, many Ernst regear kits in Hustler locos that people would bring us (they weren't in Athearn's current product line at that time). For the RDC cars, however, we simply slipped a length of silicone fuel line (for R/C aircraft) over the driveshafts; this actually made the cars run faster (and they already ran at warp 8) but it also eliminated the problem of shaft slippage and the consequent burning out of the rubber bands - an elegantly cheap solution ($3 per car, installed).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And in SD-40-2's they made them serious haulers particularly with some added lead two units 65 plus hoppers up curving 2.5 % grade.
Not only were Athearn's RDC's powered that way, but also early versions of the F-7's, GP-9's, and "Hustler" industrial switchers. It was known as the "Hi-F" drive; designed in the 1950's and lasted into 1961 the latest. The RDC's and Hustler kept them right to the end of their production runs.
There is a company that makes gearing replacement kits...it's known as Ernst Manufacturing. The kits cost around $12-15 each. There is a lot of negative comment about the Ernst conversion kits, but there is also some positive comment too -- in rec.models.railroad group in Usenet.
I, myself, geared one of the RDC.s The kit does one end only, and worked just fine for me. In fact, it worked fine enough that I did the other truck as well, with a second Ernst kit.
Those Ernst kits are sold by Walthers....
Are you talking about the RDCs that you can hold in your hand?
Sure. What size railroad do you own?
: ) Elias
Would wish to have 4 ft 8 inches railroad , have land in catskills.
How many SPV's did Metro North have , and what became of them?
I have seen some (i'm not sure how many cars, 1 or 2) that appear to be scrapped on a side track just north of Croton-Harmon.
about 8 cars were their on friday
A couple of posters have asked about the numbers and ownership of the SPV units. From Chuck Crouse's book Budd Car: The RDC Story (Weekend Chief Publishing, 1990) I offer the following roster (current as of 03 May 1989):
Serial #: 2000
Budd demonstrator, road number 2000, stored at Red Lion as of 12/88
Serial #: 2001-2006
State Railway of Morocco
Serial #: 2007
FRA track geometry car T-10
Serial #: 2008, 2012, 2015, 2017
ConnDot/Amtrak 999, 996, 993, 991, removed from service 12/85, stored at New Haven with fire damage as of 04/89
Serial #: 2009
ConnDot/CR/MNCR 50, in service MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2010
ConnDot/Amtrak 998, removed from service 12/85, being refurbished at Brewster by MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2011, 2013
ConnDot/Amtrak 997, 995, removed from service 12/85, stored at New Haven as of 04/89
Serial #: 2014
ConnDot/Amtrak 994, wrecked and burned at Springfield, MA 10 June 1984, stored Wilmington as of 04/89
Serial #: 2016
ConnDot/Amtrak 992, wrecked and burned 27 November 1983, restored MNCR Brewster 02/89, in service on MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2018
ConnDot/Amtrak 990, removed from service 12/85, being restored by MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2019
ConnDot/Amtrak 989, removed from service 12/85, in service on MNCR as of 04/88
Serial #: 2020
ConnDot/Amtrak 988, removed from service 12/85, restored MNCR Brewster 03/89, in service on MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2021-2030
NYMTA/MNCR 290-299, refurbished by Delaware Car Corp., in service on MNCR as of 03/88
Serial #: 2031
Uncompleted shell and trucks, purchased for parts by MNCR
Three additional uncompleted shells were sold to Delaware Car 01/89; ten additional uncompleted shells remained at Red Lion as of that date.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At last I heard, from 1999, the SPVs were taken out of service as more Bombardier Comets coupled with FL-9s were preferred on the northern most lines. And I heard as of late '99 the SPVs on MNRR have all been scrapped, along with a fair number of the Pullman Standard 1100s.
i saw them in albany as late as 1999, they were painted red with CONNDOT logo on the side. i dont remember what the front looks like.
Lemme find foto
I rode a CDoT SPV last Thanksgiving, 2001.
Whew, boy was it hot in the subways today. Fortunately I had luck on my side as I traveled between Flushing and the GWB bus terminal.
Going I had an R62A which does a have a railfan window, on the Manhattan side. At Main street station it was hot, I measured 96 degrees on my thermometer. I got off the 7 at 5th ave and walked through the corridor, which was hot. But I decided to take a B or D up to 59th and catch the A, in order to avoid the corridor to 42nd and 8th, which must have been a real sauna.
A D train came and took it for a short ride to 59th street, where they let an A in front of us. Fortunately I did not wait too long for an A, an R44 A came and had a fast ride to 175th street. When I entered the bus terminal, it was real hot in there. No A/C!! What is wrong with the PA, it is a disgrace there's no A/C in there. 90 degrees in there. Fortunately the 171 bus to Garden State mall came right away, which is where I stayed most of the day.
Coming back, I was lucky again and did not have to wait long for an A train, also R44's. To be honest I didn't care what car class it was, as long as the A/C was crankin. The ride was pretty quick, even CPW was quick even though there were timers. I got off at 59th and made a B right across the platform. Got off at 42nd and walked through the corridor and just made it into a cool R62A 7 train as sweat was pouring down my face. At Main street-Flushing I got off and onto that brutal platform. Walking out of the station up the stairs hoping it would be cooler outside. It wasn't. It was 98 degrees at 7pm in Flushing, absolutely brutal!
Ditched into Macy's before my bus came.
Alot of nice lookin mystical ladies in dresses, but as Kool and the Gang would say, it is just "Too Hot" for any romance.
Coming back on the N21 bus, fortunately the A/C was on, as I was listening to "I'm on Fire" by the Bruce Springsteen on PLJ.
Fox 5 just had a report on the subways. They had a temp of almost 100 on the 7 platform at GCT, while the air coolers kept Lex riders cool in the mid 80s. They were also on a brutal Redbird with no A/C, where it was 97F.
No way I'd take a train without A/C, I'd wait for the next one!
Tomorrow is expected to be even worse, with temps around 100 degrees. Still a brutal 89F in Sea Cliff, we get all that heat blowing from inland on the west wind. At the beach right now it's in the mid 70s, just about the only bearable place outside tonight.
You know if you can afford to move, I heard it was -40 in Siberia.
That would be a grat place to you.
Nah, then he'd be bitching about people not shoveling the sidewalk.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
At that temperature? It's too cold to snow.
True, but he'd find something to bitch about. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Good thing about -40 is that it's the same in Farenheit and Celsius.
No. A degreee on Farenheit isn't the samething as one on celsius. The distance between 300 and 400 degrees F on thermometor isn't the same as 300 and 400 degrees C. 100 degrees on one side won't result in 100 degrees on the other side (not temperature but value). Celsius and Kelvin the degree is the same (but places for zero).
Your point? -40 degrees happens to refer to the same temperature in Celsius and in Fahrenheit.
NO.
Run it through the conversion.
Tc = (5/9)(Tf - 32)
Let Tf = -40. Then Tc = (5/9)(-40 - 32) = (5/9)(-72) = -360/9 = -40.
So -40°F = -40°C.
yes the 5/9 conpanstates for a degree in celcious not being the same length as a farenheit. You can't just add 32 to celcious and expect it to work.
Does it look like I just added 32? Then I would have ended up with -8. That's not what I ended up with.
I started with a temperature in Fahrenheit, namely -40. I subtracted 32, giving -72. I multiplied by 5, giving -360. I divided by 9, giving -40. That's the conversion formula from Fahrenheit to Celsius. So -40°C just happens to be the exact same temperature as -40°F. That doesn't work for any other number; -40 is special.
Minus 40 F = Minus 40 C. Perhaps a simpler way to write the formula than how David did is:
F = (9/5)C + 32.
Thus, F = (9/5)(-40) + 32;
F = (-360/5) + 32;
F = (-72) + 32;
F = -40.
When C = -40
then F = -40
Hmmm, just checked the weather forcast for Sibera at:
http://meteo.infospace.ru/cities/html/index.ssi
It say its +25c (about 77f) there now.
The vendors looked at me 'crazy' because I wear short sleeve shirts...through the winter. They're still wearing wool sweaters and caps...right now. One of my 'Komaraden' has a chalkboard on his car: 'Enjoy African Winter.' Gimme three feet of dry snow. CI Peter
When John Madden was coaching, he always wore shirtsleeves on the sidelines no matter how cold it was. I'm surprised he never caught pneumonia.
I don't have a/c in my apt. Fifth floor of a five story walk up. Nuff said. (luckily this is only for this summer. I'm not insane enough to get a lease on a place like this as my permanent home.)
Oh man I feel sorry for you! At least I have an A/C, although it can cool only one room. And when it's real hot outside it don't work that well, because my place is an old building with no insulation.
Still the 83 degrees right now in my A/C'd room feels alot more comfortable than the 90 degrees it is outside right now.
how many BTUs does it have?
It was a horror even in the municipal pool where I live in Hastings-on-Hudson where the water temperature exceeded 84 degrees today. At one point while swimming laps at the pool today, I had to get out of the water and leave the pool facility for a while since my strength was fading. I walked to the downtown area of Hastings-on-Hudson and the relief for a short time was the library where there was air conditioning. I went back to the municipal pool later on recovered from the little bit of heat prostration that I experienced earlier. I swam some more laps once again, but I periodically had to get out of the water to take cool shower to keep myself from overheating. The only benefit the hot weather has on me and this is rather dubious, is that my minor cleft palate doesn't bother me that much. It is kind of dubious since I'm trading one misery for another.
Getting to the subject of trains, I wonder how many cars on Metro-North had no A/C today?
#3 West End Jeff
Intentional or none-intentional/
Either, please explain. BTW, it was much more comfortable outside today than it has been. The 4th of course was beastly to say the least.
#3 West End Jeff
Yes it is now beautiful outside, and it's gonna be a beautiful weekend. I can back to jogging and walking outside again! :-)
Luckily, I traveled by cab to the Bronx Supreme Courthouse today, then after missing a southbound #4 at Yankee Stadium, the next one came five minutes later, an R62 with good A/C (and not the Redbird WNYW reported earlier). Borough Hall was pretty hot, but when I get outside, the LED panel on the Fulton Mall gateway showed "38 Celcius, 100 Farenheit." That left me wondering if I could cook an egg sunny-side up in the intersection of Adams and Joralemon.
And with a little glass over some hot steel one could probably roast pork!
And with a little glass over some hot steel one could probably roast pork!
Let's ask American Pig to volunteer!
Roast American Pig sounds delicious. It should be nice and tasty once American Pig is well cooked.
#3 West End Jeff
Tell me you went into Borders for some time ... today was the one day I called in "sick" since I had play practice in the evening and the airhead scheduling supervisor scheduled me for 12-7:30.
Otherwise, if you had purchased anything between those hours, you were guaranteed to have me ring you up had I been working.
Oh well always next time ... see if you can recognize me.
Then again, the AC in that store has been kind of shady lately. Two Saturdays ago, the building engineer spent half the day on the roof trying to fix the damn thing and eventually he just gave up and left. Up at the registers, we were all ready to drop dead of heat stroke.
Yes, I was indeed at Borders, one of my favorite places in the mall, during the afternoon. It was nice and cool when I went in between 1 and 2pm, but when I returned at 4pm it was real hot in there, and couldn't stay as long.
Sounds like the A/C konked out.
I dunno if the mall or Borders is responsible for the store's A/C, but they better get it fixed!
Fortunately both NJT buses I had were the new MCI's and they were nice and cool.
Funny thing is, the air in Borders has kinda of a "musty" odor, sorta smells like the 6th ave express dash (currently closed) between 34th and W4th. Reminds me of how much I miss the way the musty smell penetrated the Slant R40 Q as it raced through the dash.
All of this complaining about the heat makes me laugh. I have no A/C in my Baltimore apartmentand half the buses don't have A/C either. In fact, when I started riding the Els and subways back in the early 70s, there was no such thing as A/C. That said, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE HEAT, STAY OUT OF THE SUBWAY!
E_DOG
This is bull. Are you also to deny every technological improvement just because we did without back in the day? Do you post to Subtalk using your old Underwood?
You most certainly would have a low electric bill during the summer.
Wimps?? Maggot!! Redbird brake shoes should be a two man job...i do my brakes alone at track level, including inside shoes. The ambient temp at end was 90 degrees...pit temp exceeded 100. It's harder physical work...the first job you do...and you get it done...you take multiple breaks and you do your inspection tests to get 'cooling off time.' I grew up with trainsets sans AC...and now I'm licensed to maintain those AC systems. The carbody guys think they're kings running AC when we cook undercar...you ask and warn them...then you pull the power and control systems. Dedication means keeping our city alive...CED MAKES TRAINS GO. CI Peter
I can remember when only the highest price autos had a/c too. We learned to live without it, and got very spoiled.I don't have a/c. Here in my part of Montana temps un about as high as in NYC but the nights drop down to the 50's and the houses never get too hot...the strong western sun and very clear skies can bake you in the sun. If your auto a/c doen't work [like me and my 79] it's quite warm. Eastern Montana another story. Some parts are as hot as southern Arizona in summer...but normally dry. I'm a wimp...I've hated hot weather my whole life.
Well the humidity does make it worse, because sweat does not evaporate enough to cool the skin. And in NYC, our heat is usually a humid heat.
I remember it all too well..and wonder how I survived it. Thanx for sharing and survive the summer!
No one but my wife has reason to complain. She STILL married me after the NYCRRS excursion a couple of years ago. 95 degrees outside, a former LIRR coach with no power and four open windows...Bernie promised us A/C!
-Hank
The PA Is going to charge a fare on Jamaica - JFK and Howard Beach - JFK. They said fare would be paied thru METROCARD. I wonder what it will be? (Long Term Parking - Federal Circle - Terminal Loop & Terminal Loops Will Be Free)
The rumor I've seen posted in various places is $5 for both lines. We'll see soon enough. The free Howard Beach shuttle bus will be discontinued.
Boo hiss! The shuttle bus should remain. I don't want to have to pay to transfer from Rapid Transit (the A train) to an airport just a few miles down the service road. The Airport should be more than happy to come get me for free. Even if it is by bus.
I thought the Howard Beach branch was to be free entirely, so I am surprised to hear about a fare charge. I guess it's possible to get off the A at Howard Beach and walk a little until you get to a spot to catch the shuttle bus from the long term parking lot to the Air Train station - that would avoid paying the Air Train fare!
If you can do that so easily, then the AirTrain was totally unnecessary, as I've thought all along...
I believe that the shuttle busses are going to be discontinued entirely once the Airtrain begins. You would have to walk to the Airtrain station for the Long Term lot. Presumably, there will be some impediment to doing so.
CG
Like a long walk with baggage?
More like a fence, I think. (Not everyone going to the airport has luggage.) Wire cutters, anyone?
The shuttle bus apparently WILL remain within the LTP lot only. All one has to do is take a peek at the construction at the LTP Airtrain Station. There is a huge bus-stop bay at the entrance to the station, which tells me that some form of bus transportation will be available. Besides the LTP lot is enormous it has to be covered with something wheather it be bus or van.
That being said, walking a few hundred yards to the LTP Airtrain station from Howie's Beach to catch a shuttle bus is a sure-fire way to circumvent the $5 fare (if there is to be one on that branch).
Mark
I thought people who got off the A train at Howard Beach to go to the airport had to pay $2.00 for the shuttle bus. The booth that was on the platform would charge people that to make sure no one could just walk by.
You mean currently? No, the shuttle bus has been fare-free since the JFK Express was cancelled.
AirTrain will serve the long-term parking lots. If they cancel the Shuttle bus they will probably cancel all its services.
Newark Airport belongs to the Port Authority too, so I would guess that the AirTrain arrangements will be similar at JFK & Newark. At Newark, the AirTrain is free, to change terminals or go the parking lots; it's also free to go the train station, but once you get to the train station you can't go anywhere else (except back into the airport again) without paying, because there is no exit from the train station to the outside world. And the NJT fares from the airport station include the $5 supplement (which I guess is to pay, over time, for the cost of building the AirTrain). In the Howard Beach case, the difference is that the subway station is used for other things as well as the airport, so it can't be made hermetically sealed like the Newark Airport station. Hence, presumably, the fact that the AirTrain will be free to the parking lots but fare-paid to Howard Beach. That makes it arguable whether it was worth building it to Howard Beach. In my opinion, though, the Jamaica line of the AirTrain is much more useful, as it gets you both to the subway (two lines, the E and the J)and to the LIRR, so providing a greater range of destinations.
Will LIRR offer a service to Manhattan similar to NJT's from Newark? That is, a through JFK Airport-Manhattan fare at $10 or so, with the faster train than the subway offers as the justification for the higher fare?
Fytton.
We still don't know exactly what the PA will do with the Howard Beach leg. Right now it's just meaningless Subtalk speculation.
The Jamaica leg of AirTrain will be busier, no question, because it will serve LIRR, express bus and subway customers from two corridors (Queens Blvd and the Nassau BMT).
The Port Authority's EIS called for a $5 fare. That number isn't carved in stone, but it's far from speculation.
I expect that the Howard Beach connection will lose some passengers in favor of the Q10 at Lefferts, thanks to the planned 333% fare hike via Howard Beach.
"The Port Authority's EIS called for a $5 fare. That number isn't carved in stone, but it's far from speculation"
The EIS isn't intended to be authoritative on pricing - but assumes a price for determining impact. I consider it speculation until the PA actually announces what they are going to charge.
"I expect that the Howard Beach connection will lose some passengers in favor of the Q10 at Lefferts, thanks to the planned 333% fare hike via Howard Beach."
You're probably right, but the Q10 takes forever going through airport traffic. If you want to go to Brooklyn, the Howard Beach leg will probably be a lot quicker than the Q10.
get Wire cutters and you can get off at N. Airport station and not go to Newerk. Anyways can't you get in civilization at newerk?
get Wire cutters and you can get off at N. Airport station and not go to Newerk. Anyways can't you get into civilization at newerk?
One word; AirTrain
Some years ago I came across a web page which suggested that a Metrorail station was constructed at Dulles in the early 1970s in anticipation of eventual expansion of the Orange Line (which remains in the planning stages today). Not trusting my memory, I looked up the site again tonight. (It was recently taken down, but the Google-cached version can be found here.) The information sounds somewhat specious -- the author cites only an unnamed "engineering study" for evidence -- but it piqued my interest, however doubtful this sounds. Anyone know anything about this? The page claims that the station is now entombed below a concrete slab in an airport parking lot.
C
I posted about this several weeks back. There may well be a provisional shell sitting out there, but it's not likely to be used when they finally do get a line running out that way. Back then, Dulles would have been the destination, so it could have theoretically gotten by with just a single track station. Since the line will continue past the airport to serve the suburbs that have sprung up, it will have to be two track, and will probably not deviate far from the highway alignment. IOW, it may meander in a bit for better proximity to the passenger terminals, but it also might just stay in its ROW for the journey on to keep construction costs down.
Thanks for your thoughts. Sorry to double-post, then; I normally follow BusTalk instead of SubTalk and hadn't seen your original post. Do you know anything more about it? (If it exists, what is extant/visible from surface, etc.) And did you come across the same website, or is there another source of (apocryphal) information about the phantom station?
Thanks!
chris
As far as the shell, there is no known visibility or means of public access. I haven't seen the "protrusion" referred to as a possible elevator structure, though I haven't had a chance to go to IAD with spare time to look for it. (Frankly, I'm very skeptical about the elevator as when this would have been constructed, there were no definitive designs for the stations.)
I became aware of its possible existence from a vague reference to it in an early mailing I got from the Dulles Corridor Transit project about 5 or 6 years ago, and then again a few years later on that web page. It was also uncertain as to whether there had been any actual construction beyond perhaps leaving a hole in the ground for something, and said that even if it were available, it probably wouldn't be usable because of the contemplated passenger volume and placement of the ROW and planning would only focus on the contemporary routing. There are no references to it in the current DCT materials, or any of the fed or VDOT documents I've seen.
This is also happening in Yonkers as feeders get overloaded. This might be affecting the subway. Right now 6500 people are w/o power and there are brownouts in the aformentioned areas.
Good ol' summertime at it's best. :-(
And just to think that the housing complex I'm living in wants to convert to ConEd. Humph!
And I'd better not get stuck on a subway tomorrow morning, 'cause I got too much to do, and too little time to do it.
That's my rant for this evening.
remember that last year or the year before harlem lost all power for a WEKK.
Here is a photo of the current crop of deadbirds closest to the 215 St subway stop. I can spot car numbers: 9470-71, 9367, 9406-07, 94xx (9438 maybe??)
Images of a bunch of these cars in their better days can be seen by going to the bottom of this page http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r3336wf.html and clicking on the links by car number.
ah stop it you're making me cry.
well, maybe not, but still the memories are getting to me.
I'm sad to, but records need to be kept and images captured for posterity.
Did you notice the number plates are missing from at least three of the cars? I wonder where they went....
-Stef
Yah Doug, Where did they go BMTMan...
Did you also notice that most of the American Flags are still on? Do they swim with the fishes still bearing them?
Also, what's being done with all the pairs of trucks that are being salvaged?
It looks as if the cars will go underwater with the flags on them. Meanwhile, the trucks will be shipped off to the scrap heap. These are barged separately.
SMEE Trucks might be nice to have on the side to get a trolley or subway car in working order.... Has anyone scratchbuilt a work utility vehicle?
I wonder if BERA or anyone else has any use for SMEE Trucks?
-Stef
If you know where the number plates went, please send some other stuff there also, such as a bench and one of the metal "straps." I would like one of each. I can't imagine MYCT has a use for all the stuff they are stripping out of the Deadbirds, so it would be cool if someone with connections could salvage some of that stuff for us. Anyone have any ideas? I'm really serious.
Absolutely ... and don't feel guilty for taking them. Your shots for the future are MUCH less depressing than the sight of R9's and BMT standards cut up and the remains piled on top of one another at the torch's place.
Not to mention Triplexes. What a travesty!
or streetcars being torched in Mount Vernon.
;-) Sparky
Streetcars in HEL*.
I can also see car #9687 in the photo.
#3 West End Jeff
That's 9407.
Watch the numbers you quote! Someone may suffer unnecessary anxiety.
<>
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Does anyone know where these cars are headed? I'm planning on getting a dive certification soon, hopefully before the end of summer if all works out, and would like to dive on a few of these cars. I know the PATH K cars are now down on the Sea Girt Reef off of New Jersey, and as such would be a more likely target. I don't know how deep the K cars are exactly, but it's between 70 and 80 feet deep, a fair dive on the Sea Girt Reef.
Are the NYCT cars still going down to Delaware? It seems a shame, the subway cars in the water so far from home, there are probably a few other Railfan/Divers out there who would love to see old equipment, even if it is barnicle encrusted. However, if you dive on the cars immediately after they have hit bottom, it would look just like they do in the pictures, still red, with out all the marine growth, a trip down to delaware may be worth the drive just for some interesting photos of the Redbirds.
Here are a few websites with pictures of the K cars now resting peacefully on the bottom, actually they have become quite covered by sand, nearly up to the windows on the car that seems to be featured, and marine growth has pretty much taken over the whole of their bodies.
NJScuba.net Click on the "Subway Cars" on the chart of the Sea Girt Reef.
Some Photos of K cars underwater A collection of photos by Herb Segar, although he incorrectly calls them SEPTA cars, rather than the PATH K cars that they are, other than that, pretty good quality and such.
How about a field trip? Taking subtalk to new levels, err depths!
Cars 7661-70 are on the road this evening, doing a simulated run on the 4 to New Lots Avenue, as a Brooklyn Local. SubBus can chime in if he sees it.
-Stef
This must have been the set I seen Monday nite from my vantage point.
I believe i saw that set this even while i was riding a northbound R142 #5 Train. We passed so fast that i couldnt get the numbers. I did see 76xx so its probaly the train you saw. This means that the R142As are coming to the 4 soon :).
Yep! As they enter service on the 4, we can say Farewell to the Redbirds on the line. Bye bye birdie!
-Stef
Why are there Red Birds being run with their marker lights and end roll signs unlit? They are classy looking cars. Let them run their last days looking their best. How much can it take to change a blown out bulb?
the only response you will get on this board here is the wimpy
whiners about thier AC !!!
i do agree with your post 100%!!
You'd be surprised. Why spend the money to have an electrician change the bulb in a car that may run for only another week? It's not worth the time, the effort, or the bulb. As long as the parts required to move the car and open the doors are working, that's all you need.
-Hank
I'm sure they spent plenty of money in man hours recalling the fuses for the marker light circuitry so we couldn't turn the lights on in the first place. I'm sure it would have been cheaper to replace the bulbs then it would to modify the entire Flushing Fleet overnight. I remember the days when surplus equipment was scrapped instead of sold, like rebuilt trucks on scrap cars, red R27s being sold to get rid of paint etc. Question is why do mainline cars still have markers on? Maybe the problem lies in Corona's management instead of the resistors they bought and paid for.
Actually I believe the problem relates to failed dropping resistors (that reduce current from the 600 volt supply so as to not turn the bulbs into flashbulbs from full application) ... I recall one of the folks associated with the maintenance telling us here a while ago that they had a string of failures of them, have no spare parts and because they constitute a hazard (fire, smoke, customer panic) it was decided to just disconnect them for safety purposes.
That's what I recall hearing though ... it was a Corona shop decision.
IIRC it was only the Flushing Redbirds which had their marker lights disconnected. The mainline birds still had illuminated markers last fall.
Yeah, what little I've heard about it is that Corona just threw in the towel on replacing those parts whereas the other IRT shops are still replacing them when they toast for now. Even back in the Arnine days, the bulkhead lights were in series with a biga$$ "dropping resistor" to keep the lamps from frying off the 600 supply. I lost one or two of them in my days and the whole bulkhead went dark when they smoked. And the STINK ... Woof ...
Given the concern about "smoke conditions" these days, even if it's just a piddly little part burning up, it'd scare folks and since those puppies are getting the heave-ho anyway, I sure wouldn't want to waste my crew on resistor replacement duty when I had bigger problems with more significant impact on car availability if I ever had to make the choice. Sure, it's not "as they should be" but darkened bulkheads isn't as significant an issue as runaway motors or no lights INSIDE the car.
I think they also took into consideration the fact that the 7 is an isolated line and that all trains running on it are marked as such. The only possible instance where there could be confusion would be trying to distinguish a diamond 7 from a circle 7.
Besides, the marker lights are no longer in official use.
Sometimes the express/local decision is made on the fly for the 7 making it ridiculous to use the lights.
Sometimes the express/local decision is made on the fly for the 7 making it ridiculous to use the lights.
The decision is made before Queensboro Plaza, isn't it?
Last pick I got to hear LOTS of 7 train radio traffic and it appeared that crews were never 100% sure eastbound until the Plaza and they got a command over the radio that agreed with the lineup.
Makes you wonder if the tower folks just flip a coin.
I spent a few evenings watching the rush hour on the 7 and they just don't look right.
I posted this because I rode a 4 last Thursday and the front and rear markers etc. were all out. So it looks like the problem is spreading. I grant your points on time, labor and parts. But still .....
Correct Sel, there was a post from someone saying Corona Shops pulled the fuses or whatever for the marker lights. It came up in the Express/Local light thread if anyone wants to search the archive.
Thank ya Lou! I knew YOU would be watching those. Funny how people who have operated just bite right into stories like those. You're right too, it WAS the fuses and as I recall, they did so BECAUSE of a high failure rate of dropping resistors and figured things would be safer and saner if they just weren't in the circuit. :)
The circuit is a standard 5-bulb string: 2 marker lights, 2
end route sign lights, 1 local or express light. The extra
dropping resistor in the series string is there to reduce the
wattage at which the bulbs burn, thus extending their lives.
I guess the designers of the R-1 (from which this circuit stems)
decided that it would be a problem if bulbs blew every 1000 hours
or so, thus darkening a number of significant indicators at once.
Despite SelKirk's warnings, the dropping resistor could simply be
jumped out. The bulbs would burn more brightly and would need
to be changed more frequently. Or, one could simply replace the
resistor. If the exact replacement is not available, an off-the-shelf
component available from any electronics supply house would do
just fine.
I understand the economics involved, but to me the decision not to
maintain these lights because the fleet is condemned demonstrates a
lack of pride and workmanship.
I understand the economics involved, but to me the decision not to
maintain these lights because the fleet is condemned demonstrates a
lack of pride and workmanship.
What is to understand? Boss says 'Stop doing this, your effort is appreciated but not worth it to the company'. No one lacks any 'pride' because of a sound economic decision.
-Hank
Like the marker lights don't even matter westbound. Only matter up to Queensboro east bound and even then get can overridden by the dispatcher.
I don't mean on the part of the workers. I mean on the part of
management. It may make sense economically, but like keeping the
cars clean and well-painted, it's one of those little details
that smacks of deferred maintenance, or in this case, terminal
maintenance.
Howdy Unca Jeff ... wasn't so much of a warning as an explanation of what I remember hearing the "thinking" was on it. Back in the old days, I did have one or two "events" up top where a bulb probably shorted (or the socket) and you could smell that wonderful smell of burning resistor and then the breaker on the #1 end would kick (sometimes it didn't) ... but either way, the top went dark and wouldn't come back.
The "smoke condition" was minor but even back then, the geese would just plain FLIP OUT, banging on the cab door "I smell something burning, are we on fire?" ... mind ya, this was on Arnines. Yeah, WHICH burning smell do you mean? :)
True there are some weird things in the report. Not even all the standards were out when the cited signal 'survey' was done. Maybe they revisited the issue with the R9's.
I did have a chuckle that one of the ways to ease bunching is to slow the trains not speed them up.
That makes about as much sense as painting the cars white so they could get the graffiti off as soon as it's applied.
Of course, it was common practice in the final years of the R-1/9s not to replace side sign bulbs on the ones which were still running on the IND. I don't think I saw another backlit side sign on an oldtimer after 1968 or 1969 at the latest.
I saw a few ... what was amusing is that a CI told me that they'd change the bulbs if they came in for work, but if the rollsigns were in bad shape, they wouldn't for fear of tearing the rollcurtains. You had to take them all the way out to the end of the roll to get at the bulbs without removing the whole thing. But I saw quite a few that were lit in my days ...
The original R-1/9 side roller curtains had holes cut in the canvas at one of the ends which lined up with the light bulbs. My curtains have 'em. The new curtains installed on R-7/9s used on the Eastern Division did not have the holes. Eddie S. explained that they weren't going to reinstall the light bulbs, so they didn't bother to cut the access holes. Sure enough, my Eastern Division curtains don't have them.
How often did you see a backlit side sign on any of the prewar D trains you ran or served as conductor on?
Quite a few actually. I'd say almost half of the cars had side signs lit - at least partially (always wondered how THAT happened since the lamps were in series) in my days, but then again, I actually CHECKED the sidesigns as I "mounted my steed." But yeah, the eastern division was robbed. Ours at least had a few TOP signs that said "Brighton Bch" even if the siders didn't ...
I've had a problem with these posts for some time....what are marker lights??? So I'm assigned 'Carbodsky Redbirdsky' and I activate all T/O systems in RTO simulation in the pair and every stinking lightbulb is lit. WASSUP? CI Peter
On the Redbirds, the marker lights are on either side of the end bulkhead signs. Nowadays, they're set to red-red.
Steve already got the main question - word is the Corona fleet has disconnected the circuit for everything on the ends. Nobody ever mentioned though it the TAIL lights are out too which could be an interesting question for NTSB should there be a rear-ender at some future point.
Marker lights were replaced with punch button boxes over the years. Back when they were useful, tower operators were on the wayside and would spot where you were supposed to be routed to by corresponding combinations of red-yel-grn-white lights, one cabside on the roof, the other "off-side" on either side of the big route signs up top (which also have gone byebye over the years) ... if you were green green coming out of 125th, they'd send you to the center track Concourse, green white, local, red red meant you were an A train, white white a CC, red green an AA and so on.
The tail lights should be lit, as they are low voltage running off the 22 breakers and looped through the electric portion position switches. When the reversor drum is shifted from Neutral to a forward or reverse position, the tails go dark and the headlamps illuminate. In addition, the destination end sign illuminated off low voltage in the forward position. I would presume if you were trying to read the paper while crusing down the Willy B centered, the TMO would note your destination sign was out before headlights and you were quizzed at the terminal. Nice try hotshot :-)
Is it physically possible for the headlights on a moving train to be on at both ends of a moving train?
I actually saw a n/b prewar E train at 42nd St. once whose headlights on the SOUTH motor were still on.
I'm asking because I recently took a picture of the tail end of a NB 5 express in the Bronx at East Tremont Avenue (excuse me, West Farms Square) -- but the picture clearly shows illuminated headlights, not taillights. (Yes, it's definitely the tail end. There's no T/O in the cab.)
On the R46, it is easier being the mast controller activates the lights through microswitches. On cars with spring loaded contact fingers I'm sure the folks at Branford could jumper the fingers to answer that. R44s have relays fed from the reversor, Normally Open feeds tails, latched feeds the headlights and so on.
They shouldn't be, but it is not physically impossible. It just
means a reverse key is thrown on the rear end of the train.
I'm sure it would be more like, "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!"
Whoops ... yeah, the tails (next to the headlights) ARE another circuit. What I *meant* was the upper marker lights being red on the tail (four red lights on for safety) ... and yeah, I also had my SIDE signs dark sometimes. But NEVER on the bridge. To be honest, the up and down actually gave me the willies, especially the down. You never centered there. CPW and some of Brighton was another story. Sammich and soda time. Heh.
One of the reasons though for the four way reds on the tail (I was told this a long time ago) had to do with the old ICC and a rule that your tail lamps had to be at eye-level. Since you had tails below that and roof-light markers, four reds on the rear became "acceptable" and generally used. Of course on the railroads these days, all we have is Unca Fred who isn't red at all. :)
I don't think I saw a backlit side sign on an R-1/9 after 1968 or 1969. By then, I didn't see them all that often on the IND, being a Saturday commuter. By the same token, I never saw any Brighton Beach signs on any oldtimers still on the IND. The ones on the Eastern Division did have them, as it was included on the new roller curtains. My subway riding dropped off quite a bit in 1970. The Saturday school I was attending had moved from Williamsburg to Richmond Hill and my father drove us there. It's safe to say I never rode on any D trains you operated or served as conductor on.:-(
Yeah, SOME of the D's had them on the bulkhead rollers. Not many, SOME. The deal was when you lit up your put-in, you were supposed to look for it and if it wasn't there, you'd just roll it to the end and show the white at the end of the curtain. What they wanted you to make sure of was that you DIDN'T have "Coney Island" up there if you weren't going there. Sometimes I'd roll it to "Kings Hwy" just to screw with the Brooklynites. :)
That's what they did with the R-10s which found their way on the D. The one I rode on had the bulkhead destination sign on the south motor cranked all the way to the end.
I wonder if they borrowed those Brighton Beach signs from displaced R-32 roller curtains when those cars received the multicolored route signs.
Not that roll signs mattered all that much to me (except when they were jammed and I *knew* I was going to get yelled at until the TMO tried to crank it themselves) but I *think* that the few that had "Brighton Bch" up there were probably transfers from Eastern. After all, all you really needed was ONE car on the south end that had the right signage - and since many of them ran only for rush and then would get put away for the night at either Coney or Bedford, the same wrecks came out day after day to "do it again" ... but I'd guess that about 10% of the trains I had did indeed have Brighton Bch as an option on the south end. If not, we punted.
You were a bit MORE concerned about ratcheting off your handbrakes, checking the cars and getting your brake tests than where the signs were set for - as long as they didn't say CONEY. :)
The National Weather Service is expecting the temperature to reach 98 degrees in Central Park today. In other words it is expected to be as HOT as hell. One forecast is calling for the temperature to reach 100 degrees or above. I wonder how many subway cars will have no A/C today.
I wouldn't be surprised that quite a few subway cars will have no A/C today.
#3 West End Jeff
It makes you envy deep subways like the London Underground...the deeper you go, the cooler it gets (up to a point, at least). At least all of SEPTA's subway trains are air-conditioned.
Mark
Line to NOT ride today is the 7, those redbirds can cook eggs at noon.
Well, there ARE silvers. But you'll probably be backed by the time ones comes.
oh yea they were cooler ????????????????
Yes.
Funny, I spent 22 years in Mississippi and the summers never bothered me. Down there everything is air conditioned, and the idea that things like subway cars, houses, etc., often don't have AC up here is still something I'm getting used to.
Mark
Particularly ugly upstate where FEW have A/C since you only really kick yourself in the pants for maybe five days out of the year for not having it, then you forget. It be BUTT ugly up here the past day and change and today is well ... I'm living in the basement today. :)
And you don't know if your in water or in air it is so humid and cold. Kindda like England.
It's worse if your job requires you to be outside - no air conditioning or basement. I can't get into details here but there were numerous heat exhaustion, sunstroke and dehydration medical emergencies at work on Monday while the temperature was up around the mid 40s ('C). Unbelievible.
-Robert King
Here in Atlanta, it's a cool 70 degrees, and it's supposed to get only 88 today. Sucks for you guys. :-)
And to keep this on topic. MARTA seems to have turned off the A/C in the trains or they set to thermostat higher. It's hot as crap while riding, and the humidity makes the windows fog up, it's ridiculous.
Yeah, but you guys have Ted Turner down there to deal with, so I figure we're even....
We've been in the 90s for over a week straight in metro Denver; might get a break today or tomorrow. At least it's dry - too dry IMHO. We need moisture in the worst way. I will say this much: the A/C on our light rail fleet works great.
I must confess I've forgotten just how muggy it can get back East.
So it's a dry heat, not the evil humid heat that we get here in the East? Must be a lot more bearable.
It is more bearable in that you don't perspire nearly as much. OTOH you can still get thirsty in a hurry.
I remember landing at LGA in July of 1995 when it was 102 degrees in Central Park. Talk about stepping into a blast furnace! It was still 99 degrees that night when my brother-in-law and I went to see the Mets. It was so sticky my scorecard was stuck to my arm! When we got back to Manhattan, we found an all-night deli where I bought a quart-sized bottle of Gatorade. I never chugged down an entire quart so fast in my entire life.
88 in "Hot-lanta" and 98 in New York? Can you believe that? My God, summer in New York really does suck! Unbelievable that it's 10 degrees cooler down south.
But why would MARTA turn the A/C off in the trains? That doesn't make any sense.
The key word here is "seems to." I think what Rob was trying to say is that the AC isn't working as well as it should.
Mark
rob from atlanta !! was this on all of the cars or just the french
made cars on the east west line
or the hitachi cars ??? .....would like to know if you have the info.
enjoyed your digital pics do you still have your website ??
All three car types were like this, so I imagine it's something that was deicied to do. My theory is that MARTA wants to save money on operating costs, so they turned the A/C way down.
I got some pictures here to look at:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg790a/marta
You'll like the first one, it's a railfan view!
would like to see all of those redbird haters sweat in the
GEORGIA HEAT !!!!
Even the formidable R-62A air conditioning is failing in this weather. I walked through the first six cars of a 1 train yesterday, and the first, third, and fourth all had no a/c. (They were all R-62A singles, so I latched open the storm doors so there'd at least be some air circulation.)
I once tried that on some R33 Singles, all windows, all end doors. And then some idiot complains about the noise and closes them. I wanted to have a redbird all to myself. I guess it wasn't hot enough for them.
I winder if that same guy ever rode on the R-10s.
Going accross Jamaica bay the R10s were ok with the windows open and the storm dorrs open. Thet were fast.
Yes they were. My fastest ride on those Thunderbirds occurred on that very same stretch in July of 1969. Once we had cleared the steel bridge, the motorman wrapped it and we were off to the races. Had we been in a tunnel, it would have felt as though we were going even faster.
I would guess they are of middle/south american descent?
Then you get back up and open them :D
I didn't want my behind to get kicked to the next train's single.
My R-62(A) this morning on the 1 was frigid!!!!
It isn't ever cool enough for me. I have the radiator closed in my room all winter for the last 5 years. And right now the A/C is never off.
I remember boarding a frigid R-68 on the "N" on a 92 degree day on May 11, 1993. You almost needed a sweater on that car. I've come across some frigid R-62As and even a frigid R-32. Now I carry a little black hood with me on the subway even during the summer just in case I get stuck on an unusually frigid car. The hood keeps my head warm which is a necessity for me. If you're curious enough you can E-mail me and I'll explain things to you.
#3 West End Jeff
LUCKY SKUNK!!!! Ambient temperature Wednesday inside the 239th car barn was 90 degrees F. I had 'undercar' in the middle of track 67 for 180th Street Rebirds and finished standard inspection into my lunch...skipped eating for a hard cold shower and a change of clothes.
Temperature undercar with AC units running broke 100 degrees F. 'Buck fifty a ride' is an air conditioned bargain. CI Peter
Someone should start The R33 Single Club, where you go out on a day that is over 100 and ride an R33 single on a complete round trip on the Flushing Line. It's sort of the opposite of the Polar Bear Club.
The R-33 singles are a lot more comfortable in the summer than any car equipped with air conditioning that doesn't work.
The Heat's gotten to you already hasn't it! LMAO! Sad, those Redbird beg to say "roast me" At least the body of the R-62 reflect light, instead of absorbing. Luckily we dont have the dark colored redbirds that existed in the past, that'll be begging to become a moving sauna.
Did you even read what I wrote?
I was comparing an R-33 single (which has never had air conditioning and instead has fans that blows outdoor air into the car, as well as four window panels that open and storm doors that can be latched open) to an R-62A with broken air conditioning (whose ventilation is restricted to two window panels and, on the singles, storm doors with latches).
I obviously wasn't comparing an R-33 single without air conditioning to an R-62A with air conditioning.
As for the mainline R-33's on the 2 and 5 (I don't know about the 4), their air conditioning usually works, and when it does, it works quite well -- maybe not as well as on the R-62A's, but does any? It's only the 7's Redbirds that seem to have consistently poor air conditioning.
Maybe you should call it the R-33 sauna bath car club !!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>Someone should start The R33 Single Club...<<<
It would be a short lived club...to be sure.
Peace,
ANDEE
It hit 100 degrees today in Sea Cliff. It is 100 degrees right now in my kitchen. In the room with the A/C it is 86F. Oh the wonders of no insulation.
But I'll take the 86 over the oven the rest of my apartment is!
The rampent safety concearns in the North River and East River tubes are going to be addressed with a 78 million Federal Grant. The money will help cover the costs of structural rehabilitation; installation of modernized tunnel ventilation and communication systems; and improvements for emergency access and egress. The grant agreement provides for reimbursement to Amtrak of actual costs incurred in making the improvements.
Pataki said, "This funding is an essential step in addressing the pressing fire and life-safety issues in the aging tunnels leading to and from Penn Station. I want to commend Secretary Mineta for recognizing the federal commitment to this issue and for providing funding to enhance the safety and security of these densely traveled tunnels. Although these tunnels are owned by Amtrak, over 300,000 New York and New Jersey commuters use them each day. The federal funds being released today will augment the investment New York has been making to the East River tunnels and I look forward to working with the Secretary to ensure that the federal commitment to these tunnels remains robust."
Why did AMTRAK turn down the addition of safety features of the tunnels in the first place? Lack of money?
Why did AMTRAK turn down the addition of safety features of the tunnels in the first place? Lack of money?
Amtrak didn't build the tunnels. PRR built each of the tunnels with an emergency exit. Today that's considered inadequate.
Safety considerations have evolved greatly over the last 90 years.
Wooden passenger cars were banned just over 50 years ago.
This money probably isn't enough to rebuild the tunnels, but it should be enough to install a sprinkler and smoke/fire system, add a few more emergency exits (which would be well lit and marked and not be of the narrow, spiral-stair design) and add a communications system which would support police and fire radio frequencies outside the train, and better lighting throughout the tunnel.
Not a moment too soon.
And hopefully plug up those leaks you can see when looking out the railfan window of an M-1/3!
Don't look for more emergency exits. Most of the tunnels are sort of underwater and that makes it hard to install a new exit. Frankly I like the spiral staircases. They are a prime example of 1910 engineering and design. Evacuees would have a wonderful living history exhibit.
"Frankly I like the spiral staircases. They are a prime example of 1910 engineering and design. Evacuees would have a wonderful living history exhibit."
Yeah, a living (for a while anyway) recreation of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire.
HeY! I remember that. They did that back in the 1980s.
Either you got you hands on a *very* old post, or....
Maybe they gotta do it all over again!
Elias
I saw six trains today:
8149-8152 with 8101-8104
8157-8160 with 8137-8140
8105-8108 with 8153-8156
8161-8164 with 8165-8168
8177-8180 with 8181-8184
8145-8148 with 8141-8144
As usual- there may or may not be more in a yard or cars I did not see.
then that means the chances of catching an R143 on the L now is higher than before.good,good,thanks for the update,i'll be taking the L more often now just for the hell of it.i just love those 143's.
Just saw another 143 train run light through W4th, presumably to take the cutoff over to the Eastern Division.
It looked brand-y new. Sorry, but I didn't think to get the #'s.
At about 4 PM, I nearly caused an accident on the Willy B
when I saw a light set of R143s coming northbound.
Word to the wise: Best to grip the steering wheel firmly with both hands while passing over/under or through structures featuring rail equipment.
...or wear blinders. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That was the set, I was at W4 just after 4pm.
But of course, "Jeff H."'s emergency braking rate is now the proper 3.2 MPHPS, so he was able to stop in time :-)
David
8109-12/8133-36 was in Canarsie yard this afternoon.
Another new one!
The 8140s finally surface. (I presume they were in passenger service.)
That makes 10 trainsets.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Pretty soon, we'll see nothing but R-143's and want to ride the last remaining R-42 on the (L). The old order changeth !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't know if this was said yet, but I have a feeling the remaining slants have been transfered to CI. I haven't seen any all week on the L as I pass under the line at Bway Junction and didn't see any at ENYD this afternoon either. I heard the gap train of slants at FP yard was transfered to CI a few days ago. Next question to be answered soon: what's next to go: the R40M or CI R42? I wish the latter, but expect the former!
All the slants are gone out of all three yards and the ENY barn. Next I saw 40m's signed up as Q in ENY, and it seems those few are gone as well.
Check this at the AMTRAK Web Site.
AMTRAK has got the loan and will run at least until the end of this fiscal year. Thank goodness!
The news has been out since last week. Didn't your press reported it, or is it a non-news item?
That ain't saying much....you know whent heir fiscal year ends?
It'll be the same stuff again in two months....
Well, at least better than shutting down on Wed. 2 weeks ago.
Yeah, so now when they runout of money again on 9/1, shutdown is imminent.....
The next fiscal year starts October 1, 2002. Hope that AMTRAK has another chance for that $1.2 billion from Congress for next year's expenses. The $205 million loan is a guaranteed payback one.
I've asked this before, but I think AMTRAK will be on loans as long as it lives.
>>> Yeah, so now when they runout of money again on 9/1, shutdown is imminent <<<
No, if they make it into the new fiscal year they will have 8-9 months to spend the year's budget, so the shutdown crisis will not occur until next May or June.
Tom
"No, if they make it into the new fiscal year they will have 8-9 months to spend the year's budget, so the shutdown crisis will not occur until next May or June."
Hopefully Gunn will have the guts to say that he can only do x with the money, and shut down enough services so that he can run the rest of the railroad for a whole year. Then Congress and the states will have to decide what additional money they want to kick in as a subsidy and what they are willing to let die.
It's AAALLLIIVE!
I'm coming to NY today for 5 glorious nights of dancing argentine tango. I checked the service advisories for the subway and read that for this Sunday and Monday (until 5 a.m.) the #1 and #2 won't operate below 34th Street. The 5 will run on the 2 as far as Times Square.
The reason on the advisory is "This work is necessary to restore 1 9
service to South Ferry." The 3 will continue to run to 14th Street.
Why isn't there service below 14th Street on the West Side IRT? What work being done requires service to cease at 34th street on the local tracks?
Michael
Still coming to NY even though he's confused.
I'm sure the 3 will be running local to 14th -- probably all the way from 96th -- both to provide service to the local stations south of 34th and to keep clear of terminating 5 trains at 42nd and 1 trains at 34th. And the 5 will almost certainly run express.
Why nothing below that? The usual reason in the past has been work at Wall Street. I don't see how work on the Greenwich Street line would possibly affect service on the current 1/2/3 line, but that's the stated reason.
Will the northbound 2 be running normal or on the East Side? Nobody seems to know. The poster is ambiguous. When similar GO's have been in effect, the 2 has always run normal in one direction, but this week's advisory is very different from previous ones.
im 97% certain it'll be in both directions.working on the signals around Chambers St is the most likely reason for the GO
Which signals? All trains to and from Brooklyn at are on the express tracks at Chambers; the Greenwich Street line connects only to the local tracks.
If the switches north of Chambers need work (they shouldn't; they're well north of the damage), running all trains express from 14th to Chambers and/or vice versa should do the trick with a lot less disruption than what's planned.
Anybody have the actual GO (if it's been printed up yet) and care to share it with us?
"If the switches north of Chambers need work (they shouldn't; they're well north of the damage), running all trains express from 14th to Chambers and/or vice versa should do the trick with a lot less disruption than what's planned."
Where is the tower for those switches. If they are putting in new gear somewhere, it is likely that they will put in all new gear for the entire interlocking section, even the parts of it that are still running.
Anyway. that is my take on the deal.
your take may varry, use with grains of salt.
Elias
I believe the poster advising of the GO says that ALL #2's will be on the east side.
Then why the word "downtown"?
(OTOH, the 1 and 5 changes obviously apply in both directions, so I agree that the 2 change will probably also apply in both directions.)
Since most of the ridership on the 2 and 5 is in Manhattan, wouldn't a relabeling be in order? Run 2 trains between 241st and Times Square. Run 5 trains between Dyre and Flatbush via the East Side. There will be confusion no matter what, but I think doing this would reduce it a little.
The service notice says for 28th, 23rd, 18th, use the A or C. I don't think the 3 is stopping here, at least in one direction.
It also doesn't explain where equipment is going to be turned. You can turn both the 1 and 3 at 14th St on one track, but it will be a tight squeeze.
I'll see the GO Bulletin issued by Stations hopefully on Friday, and will try to report back with my findings if no one else does it.
-Stef
The service notice is giving directions traveling south from those stations. Why else would it direct passengers at 28th to 34/8 rather than 34/7?
The 5 will run down the express, discharge at 42nd, and relay on the pocket track. The 1 will terminate on the express tracks at 34th. The 3 will run local past both messes and terminate on its usual SB express track at 14th.
I doubt the 3 will run express either way. In theory, 1's could be restricted to one of the express tracks and 3's could run express the other way, but what would be the point? I doubt the track closure is north of 14th. (That sort of track closure would be better handled by a simple all-trains-run-express GO some weekend or late night.) It would be a tight squeeze with only one track available for turning 1's. When a similar GO last ran, the 3 wasn't running, and some 1's were sent to Chambers while others terminated at 14th since they couldn't all fit at Chambers.
>The service notice is giving directions traveling south from those stations. Why else would it direct passengers at 28th to 34/8 rather than 34/7?
You didn't answer the question. Is there service to those stations at all? My impression is there would be no service stopping there, since the customer is being directed elsewhere. If the 3 is on the local track, perhaps it will stop. If it is on the express track, then obviously, it won't stop.
-Stef
I obviously don't know for sure, but I think there will be service to those stations in both directions, on the 3, which has to use the local track anyway to get past the 1 at 34th.
Why are passengers at 28th being sent to 34/8, not 34/7?
My answer is that the directions are for passengers trying to board at those stations and go south. Sure, the stations are open, but if you're trying to go past 14th Street, you don't want to use them or you'll be stuck using the long passageway to the F. Better to just walk to 8th (or 6th) and be done with it.
But if the directions are for passengers trying to go either way, and the local stations are closed, why not just send them to 34/7?
For that matter, why is 14/7 even on the list? We both agree that there will be service there. I maintain it's so passengers looking for southbound service will find it.
Well, Look, If *WE* can't figure it out, then sure as little fishes the geese aren't going to be able to figure it out.
So here is what I figure... those stations are open to passengers coming from or going to the NORTH, but that there is no service SOUTH of 14th Street.
Now if that is so.... then why couldn't they have said *that*?
Elias
Perhaps power has to be turned off on the downtown side in order for the work to be done.
does terrorist attacks on 9/11 ring a bell? the 1/9 tunnel to South Ferry and the Courtlandt St station was destroyed on that day and since then they've been putting up a new tunnel and working 24/7 to get it set to return everything back to normal within the next 3 months or so.all this time they've been working nothing like this GO has happened.so my guess is that the workers are gonna take a major step in the work on sunday through monday so they dont want any trains around Chambers St in either direction.that also means one thing,its the signals that they'll be working on.this go is so interesting im gonna be around to see it on sunday after lunch.hehe, i know if im not around people are gonna be confused just like they always are.so im there to help out like i usually do on most GO's.the 2 is gonna be running on Lexington Av in both directions thats why the 5 is gonna run to Times Sq to replace it.if you wanna hang around with me on sunday,i have no problem with that.till take care.
does terrorist attacks on 9/11 ring a bell? the 1/9 tunnel to South Ferry and the Courtlandt St station was destroyed on that day and since then they've been putting up a new tunnel and working 24/7 to get it set to return everything back to normal within the next 3 months or so.all this time they've been working nothing like this GO has happened.so my guess is that the workers are gonna take a major step in the work on sunday through monday so they dont want any trains around Chambers St in either direction.
As noted already, the work on the tunnel through the WTC site should not interfere in any way with IRT service.
"As noted already, the work on the tunnel through the WTC site should not interfere in any way with IRT service."
Might there not be some issue with the signaling system? Maybe the local tracks south of Chambers were excised from that system in some radical way in order to get service through Park Place going ASAP back in September. After all, there was also severe flooding in the tunnel back then.
does terrorist attacks on 9/11 ring a bell? the 1/9 tunnel to South Ferry and the Courtlandt St station was destroyed on that day and since then they've been putting up a new tunnel and working 24/7 to get it set to return everything back to normal within the next 3 months or so.all this time they've been working nothing like this GO has happened.so my guess is that the workers are gonna take a major step in the work on sunday through monday so they dont want any trains around Chambers St in either direction.that also means one thing,its the signals that they'll be working on.this go is so interesting im gonna be around to see it on sunday after lunch.hehe, i know if im not around people are gonna be confused just like they always are.so im there to help out like i usually do on most GO's.the 2 is gonna be running on Lexington Av in both directions thats why the 5 is gonna run to Times Sq to replace it.if you wanna hang around with me on sunday,i have no problem with that.till then take care.
Unless they are seriously lying by omission there will be uptown service on the 2 through Chambers St.
It's been posted that there will.
But what about the omissions regarding 1 and 5 service? The poster only says where they go southbound. Now, we here can all figure out that they have no choice but to turn around and go back the way they came -- but the poster doesn't give any information on changes in uptown 1 or 5 service.
1 is local in both directions. 5 is express in both directions and runs on the west side until 5am Monday morning.
Here's the skinny.
#1 trains last stop 34st. travel light to Chambers relay on 2 track and go in service at Franklin. (CHAMBERS is CLOSED)
#2 trains 241-Flatbush via Lex. both directions
#3 trains regular service
#5 trains Dyre to TSQ
Hold it. This conflicts in two major ways with what SubBus posted. Are two different versions of this GO floating around? I can't wait to see what happens come Sunday.
Why on earth would the 1 travel light all the way from 34th to Chambers? And why would Chambers be closed if trains have to go there anyway? (Work equipment blocking the platform or stairs?)
I made a mistake the southbound platform will be closed because they are pulling electrical cables. The 2 will operate NB as usual with the 1,2 and 3 going local from 42nd to 96th.
The 1 is traveling light because the only places to relay are 14th (3 trains) or Chambers, and since the southbound platforms are closed for safety reasons and you can't go from 1 track to 3 track 1 trains are traveling light. It would next to impossible to try and clean out both 1 and 3 trains at 14th.
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.
But why not do it this way instead:
2, 3, 5 as per the current plan.
1 via local to Franklin. Discharge there. Relay on the SB local and/or express tracks at Chambers. (Maybe one train every 20 minutes or so could run in service past Chambers to Park Place, discharge there, and wrong-rail back to Chambers, so nobody gets stranded at Franklin with no transfer opportunities.) Run light to 14th on the NB express track and resume normal service there.
That would give the local stations south of 14th one service in each direction. The actual GO gives them two services NB and no services SB.
If SB 1 trains will be discharging at 34th, I don't see why they don't just change ends there. The local stations south of 34th don't see much use on weekends; the 2 and 3 are providing enough NB service.
Where is the actual work? Fulton/Wall SB track?
You can't get from 1 track at 34 to 4 track at 42.
The work is being down just south of Chambers on 2 track and power is being removed where neede.
Sorry, I don't know the track numbers -- 1 and 4 are the local tracks, I assume? SB 1 trains could terminate on the SB express track at 34th, change ends, and switch to the NB local track, no? Peter Dougherty's track map seems to indicate that they could. If not, they could come in on the SB express track at 34th, do a reverse relay through the gap track, reenter service on the NB express track at 34th, and switch to the NB local track at 42nd. The 3 would run local past this mess.
But I still prefer my other idea. If the 1's going to be running down the local track to Chambers anyway, they should stay in service until Franklin. There's no need to run it in service north from Franklin since the 2 already takes care of those platforms.
How would you feel if I left you on the Express plat @ 34 and told you to go to the local plat to get the #3 to continue to 14th.
The 5 trains are going to be relaying on the spur track at TSQ.
1 SB local \
2 SB express \
3 NB express /IRT only
4 NB local /
If I'd been listening to the announcements, I would have known to get off at 42nd and wait for a 3 to continue past 34th. And if I hadn't, I'd use one of the three underpasses to get to the local platform. It just seems like overkill to implement a five-mile relay to avoid this.
You're right about the spur track.
That explains why the Schedule shows Chambers street as the turn around point for the #1 Line.
>>I'm coming to NY today for 5 glorious nights of dancing argentine tango<<
Tango on the T.A. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anybody have a recording of any of the LIRR M-1/M-3 or NYCT Subway air horns that I can get? I'm trying to change the air horn from the "foghorn" horn included in the canned HHP-8 and Acela Express trainsets in MSTS.
Thanx a billion. :)
Stuart
(Btw: If you want to save time, just email the file(s) as attachments to my email address [sguberman@nyc.rr.com] Thanx again)
The correct horns for the HHP-8 and Acela express is the Airchime K-5LA.
You can download good versions of this horn ready to put into your locos on MSTS from http://www.train-sim.com in their File Library. I know, the default horns really suck.
And just for info sake, the NYCTA horn is a WABCO single noter...I forget the actual model number. LIRR's M-1's used a Leslie "S44" single noter; the M-3's came with a Leslie "S-2M" 2-chime.
>>The correct horns for the HHP-8 and Acela express is the Airchime K-5LA.<<
Is that the Nathan K-5LA airchime used on the LIRR power packs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes. LIRR had them on many GP38-2's, a couple MP15AC's, some of the FA's. Due to varying mounting, air pressure, and ingested birds/dirt/grit conditions, they'd all sound completely different.
The DE/DM's came with them as well, and originally they were mounted in a roof niche mid-ships, with a quick on-off solenoid valve, making thems ound VERY LOUD to the side, and barely audible to the front. (Amtrak's Genesis and F59PHI's are the same way...) LIRRmoved them to the front of the units so they'd provide grade crossing warning, not headaches to those living on either side of the tracks!
I just heard people have needed medical attention in the subway because of the heat. I don't like the heat but I can take it if I must. Anyone have any physical problems today? Hope everyone is alright.
Tony
Damn, Thankfully I didn't have any problems, I'm in a house with no A/C, just fans.
I sit in a windowless server room for eight hours per workday. Luckly I have my sweater on.
Ah, a fellow computer tech. I'm more of a "traveling" tech at CCNY. In other words, when someone spills cofee into the server, that's where I go. Thank God we have central air!
Back on topic, though. The TA has done a pretty good job with A/C this year. I haven't gotten on a train or bus yet without A/C, though I'm sure there are a lot of them out there.
If the server rooms didn't have A/C they would all burn out. I already am looking at a computer that burned out when it was left in a unA/Ced room.
I'm assuming heat isn't all that good for PC's either. Fortunately my PC is in the room with A/C, and this is why I leave the A/C going full blast 24/7 in this weather. And it's 86F in here still.
I wish I could stuff some insulation in these stucco walls.
Hehe......I remember my very first computer.....an 8088 (XT) clone that died around this time in 1993 (after like 7 years in service with only a few upgrades, mainly in the HD and floppy drive departments), and the CPU itself just MELTED right in it's space on the motherboard....and this was before the lever sockets [for easy CPU chip removal and replacement]
Got 2 XTs. Good thing have been in a office building with a powerful (right now 74F) A/C that has always worked since day 1 of the computer being there.
>>>I wish I could stuff some insulation in these stucco walls. <<<
Have you considered buying a LARGER air-conditioner? Sounds as if yours is woefully underpowered. I live in a pre-war uninsulated apartment on the top floor and the temp. in my apt is 72 degrees. With a 12,000 btu unit in the living room and a 7000 btu in the bedroom.
Peace,
ANDEE
7800 BTU is my A/C's power. I have ancient wiring in my building, any more would probably trip the circuit breaker.
And two A/C's, forgettaboutit! I can't even use the microwave or toaster while the A/C is going.
Maybe the A/C he has isn't a regular model. Mine is a vertical unit because the windows a a hand crank. It is only avaliable in 11,000 BTUplus it runs on ancient wires (half the house on one circut(?)).
I'm just drinking alot of fluids and staying in A/C. I do have a low tolerance for the heat, if I stay outside too long in it I'll get tremor and nausea.
Have a happy 4th.
What are you doing for the holiday? Im going to a wedding in Boston.
Going to stay until Monday.
BBQ on Sunday at my best friend's house in Bull's Head (S.I.), but that's about it here.
Haven't had a day off from TA since I started over nine months ago. Took July 4th and the Friday (AVA) for a well deserved four day weekend. West of NYC 75 miles away in Hope, New Jersey...the heat prevents me from doing outside chores. CI Peter
Was supposed to spend it with my girlfriend, she didn't make it, so I'm all alone on subtalk
AEM7
I hope people that had to ride the R-44 didn't burn up today because of the A/C wasn't doing enough, today would be a great day to stay in a nice cool R-32 on the C Line.
Had to go down to Hoyt-Schmerhorn today on the "A" via a R-44 this morning....one of the reasons why I am not havin' a good day.
But I thought the R-44s, according to you, were soooo wonderful. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-44's are wonderful and are the best, just not during the summer.
Sounds like we are talking about an R-33.
I was riding an R44 A train from 207th all the way to 14th street yesterday and the AC was working very well.
R44's have pretty good A/C, actually they seem better than the 46's at times. But the best A/C in my opinion is on the R32's, R40 Slants, R62's and R68's(out of Concourse).
Actually the Concourse R68's can be quite cool, as I experienced the other day on the D.
Those R68's seem to perform much better than the ones at CI.
TD is doing a great job over at Concourse!
Train #97 from NYP to Miami yesterday was delayed more than 2 hours because of equipment problems. I was at Newark Penn Station and when the train pulled in, it was led by two HHP-8 locomotives #655 and #657 (IIRC) which clearly bear the Acela logo.
I thought it was interesting as I have never seen that happen before. I guess in emergency situations, anything can happen.
1) Does anybody know why this happened?
2) Which loco. does AMTRAK use regularly to pull this train?
3) I've noticed a "Dorm Lounge" and a "United States Mail" car in the front of the train. What type of mail is delivered on the train? What is the difference between a dorm lounge and a regular lounge car?
(The dorm lounge car looked old but was a "rectangular" Amfleet with square windows.)
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
2) Which loco. does AMTRAK use regularly to pull this train?
If I remember right, these runs are generally made by through Genesis engines. I don't know where the power change occurs, but there presumably has to be a power change at some point. Presumably DC. But then, I've often seen diesels go up and down the NEC. So maybe it's Philly, because allegedly diesels can't go into NYP. That said, I think sometimes they just don't care and send P-42's into NYP.
Hell, the Inland Route train is diesel all the way and they don't power change at NHV. So diesels must be OK in NYP at least some of the time.
3) I've noticed a "Dorm Lounge" and a "United States Mail" car in the front of the train. What type of mail is delivered on the train? What is the difference between a dorm lounge and a regular lounge car?
It's not an Amfleet. It's a heritage car. You can probably see the "New York Central" lettering if the light is on it right. As far as I know Dorm Lounge is a crew dorm, maybe there is a lounge area. Well I've never been in one so I can't tell you. The half with the smaller windows are roomettes, presumably the half with the larger windows are the "lounge" part.
AEM7
An AEM-7 usually hauls Silver Meteor (#97 and #98) between New York and DC. An P42 will haul that train south of DC.
Chaohwa
Yes AEM-7's do haul #97&98.They change at Washington.#89,90,91,92, usually switch engines in Philly.The electric they use, last time i saw were E-60's .
An AEM7? I thought larger locomotives were needed than the AEM7 to haul a 16-car or so long-distance train.
Also, I've been noticing a lot of AEM7/AC's lately pulling the Amfleets. Are the AEM7/AC's preferred more to use than the AEM7's or am I just noticing a bunch of trains in one time period which use all AEM7/AC's?
Or a pair of AEMs.
The only Genesis engines that go into NYP are dual mode from Albany-Rens... No Genesis diesels enter NYP from Jersey.
And they're P32AC/DMs, what Metro North has, too. The earliest of these engines for Amtrak was commissioned in 1995 by GE's EMD. There were ads for Amtrak service with these engines all over the place in Union Station/DC at that time.
EMD and GE are two different companies. GE's locomotive subsidiary is General Electric Transportation Systems (GETS). EMD is General Motors Electro-Motive Division. The GEnesis engines are all GE products.
-Hank
The inland route changes power at New Haven. AFAIK, Amtrak never runs pure diesels into NYC, and if they did, I suspect LIRR and NJT commuters would riot.
If the power at Newark is a P-42, it will ditch there. Amtrak stupidly bought a fleet of obsolete diesels, but never bothered to buy any more motors, of which they're been short for years. They got ripped royally on the HHP-8s, they're 3 million more than the ALP-46s are, and the two locos are effectively equal in performance.
HHP-8's have higher TF for starting heavy Long Haul trains.
Not by much. Actually, I believe they're effectively the same. In any case, starting TE isn't a big issue as long as it's sufficient to get the train rolling. Once you break 10 or 15mph, you're beyond the point where TE makes much difference, and HP starts to dominate. The HHP-8 has 900 more HP than the ALP-46. Which is interesting since the ALP-46 is based off a design that has a 9000+hp variant. i suspect this was more a spec move by NJT than anything else.
Since both are AC traction and virtually the same weight (though the HHP-8 is 11 ton heavier somehow. I suspect ABB was either better at design optimization than Alstom, or the penaly for Tier II is more severe than I thought. in any case, the ALP-46 is actually lighter than the ALP-44, yet has a higher starting TE by 50%, as a function of better traction and trucks).
I'd be curious to see how a 6 axle, 10,000 HP, 110ton locomotive could do, but such designs aren't common todday anywhere. 4 axle power is the most common in passenger service now.
The greater weight is for better adhesion. Long haul trains do not need the zip and hi-speed of the corridor trains. They frequently have equipment in consist that is limited to less than 120mph. They need to be able to start under all conditions and this is what the E60's and HHP-8's will do.
When I took it, we had an E60. It would take one E60 or a pair of AEM7s, usually. Since the HHP8s were aquired to replace the E60s, I don't see any 'emergency'.
All sorts of mail go on the train, usually packages and bulk magazines (magazines for individual delivery, but packed in bulk by zip code for later sorting) and such.
A dorm-lounge is a crew dorm car with a smoking lounge.
-Hank
I have some questions and information regarding PATH and I think it's interesting to note:
1) What kind of horn do PATH trains use? They sound almost identical to the horn used on NJT Arrow III's.
2) Are only the PA-1's with the lit-up destination panels on the INSIDE?
3) Real speed of PATH between JSQ and Harrison: If anyone knows the speed restriction of the Hoboken line tracks in the section which runs alongside the NEC along with I-280, that's the speed PATH reaches.
4) UNKNOWN TRAIN spotted at JSQ heading e/b. A PATH train consist of 4 cars (one of them was #640) along with a work car, and about 4 flatbed work vehicles followed the train (attached). All of the passenger cars had "33rd St" and "WTC" lit up, but the lights were all off. The last flatbed car was 1238W.
Turns out this train stops right outside of JSQ, and I think it ended up on the service platform next to track 1.
Anyone know about this irregularity?
Answers and respones would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
The PA-1s and PA-2s have no destination signs on the inside. The PA-3s and PA-4s do, but in different spots. PA-3s have them over the front-right / back-left doors, while PA-4s have them on the ends of the cars.
Also, if you note the exterior, the destination signs on PA-1 thru 3 are over the doors while the PA-4 is over the windows between the doors.
How come all of you complain the redbirds don't have AC when they do. And why do the R-33 not have them and the R-36 do?
The R-33 single units don't have the space in the chassis for the powering transformers necessary to make the A/C go. That's why in the case of the redboids, the married pairs are better than the single units...the R-33s for the 7 were there because they'd increase the # of cars per train to 11 without compromising any power configs, and the power configs for the R-33 and 36 are similiar anyway, but the 36s don't have the capability to send power to the 33s for the A/C units...or the TA decided to not put in A/C on the 33s anyway because to outfit them with it wouldn't be economically wise, and they figured that the passengers would just stick to the 10 R-36s in the rest of the consist.
Huh?
Try this: there isn't enough space under the car on the single R-33s for the compressor/condensor unit that was being purchased at the time for the retrofit of the rest of the R-26 through R-36 fleet. There was enough room under the rest of the cars because they have either an air compressor OR a motor-generator set (now converter), while the single R-33s have both.
David
yeah the Flushing redbirds are the hottest, compare to the other redbirds, the R-62a's especially on the Broadway line have the best AC.
Between the generally poor a/c and the pulled fuses on the marker lights, it certainly seems like Corona isn't putting as much into its Redbirds as the other shops.
Corona crew isn't East 180ths. We get really nasty negleted 32s and bring them up to standard. Just don't look for asthetics...body rot is fixed with duct tape and red spray paint.
33's, you mean (I hope).
Yes, East 180th does a very nice job on its Redbirds, especially the R-33's. As a West Sider, I don't see much of them anymore, but I cheer when I do (as I did a few days ago when I saw a train that was half-signed as a 2 and half-signed as a diamond-5 pull in on the SB local track at 96th -- too bad I was going north). Keep up the good work.
No more Bondo, eh?:-)
yea~!
Answer because they are a buch of crybabies !!!!!!!
""wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"""!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bad day for the IND this AM. Had a 12-9 at 34/6 and then homeless were on the tracks at 53/5th.
If that was not bad enough- when I got to the stair to the downtown F we had a platform light fixture on the L go up in smoke. I raced to the booth to call it in and returned with an extinguisher just in case. I saw the cleaner and asked him to watch with the extinguisher in case while I returned to the booth to await help. I showed the police the scene to find that lighting removed the tubes and let the police go. I spoke to Lighting and was advised I did the right thing.
If this was actually a confirmed 12-9 it will be just the first 12-9 for any of the 6th Ave lines (BDFV) since 2001. Anyone want to guess which line(s) has had the most 12-9s this year?
[ ] 8th Avenue (ACEH)
[ ] 7th Avenue (123)
[ ]Broadway (QWNR& Fs)
[ ] Eastern Division (JMZ)
[ ] Lexington Ave (456&GCS)
[ ]#7 line
[ ] L Line
[ ] G-Line
I'll wager a quarter on 8th Avenue (A)(C)(H)(E) (turn the letters, Vanna)
You can guess the A C & H but the vowel'll cost ya $250.00
Dang! That's an expensive vowel ... guess I'll take an F then and use my trusty exacto knife. :)
The J,M,Z
Nah no one likes the structure, you might fall thru.
They do it at Chambers St. It's the perfect spot, depression-wise.
-Hank
If they can figure out what track the train is coming in on. That might explain that real slow timer going east.
You think they do it on the A/C so that part of their remains will drift over to 76st?
No, depression-wise, any IND local station will do. Especially one with a few pitch black closed exits.
>>> They do it at Chambers St. It's the perfect spot, depression-wise <<<
Well if I were planning the act I would want to be taken out by an A train, preferably an R-9. (I guess I missed my chance.)
Tom
Humping in front of an R-68 hippo allows for reconsideration. Let's say, for example, you landed ten feet in front of the train as it was moving at top speed. You'd have at least a couple of minutes to re-evaluate your decision before the train covered those ten feet and got to you.
I'd have to agree with your guess on the Eastern Division. They've had a few of them lately.
My guess is the L Line.
the 7
I'll guess the No.1 Line.
Actually, the 7th Ave line (1,2,3) is running a distant 2nd. Roughly 1/3 of all of this year's 12-9 incidents have taken place on the 8th Avenue lines.
Woohoo! I won my free controller and brake stands! :)
Right? Heh.
Hey, that's what I thought too... we'll have to split the prize, Selkirk :P
I think it's nertz to both of us but sure ... I'll split the winnin's ... only fair. :)
Early Wednesday afternoon, there was a 12-9 on the E line at Jamaica Van Wyck. Jamaica Hospital is in the vicinity. I do not know if there was a fatality involved.
There was a Fatality Involved. The person was Dead under the train. I was on my way to work when I heard the reports over my radio at Union Tpk. Station.
Robert
What is this fascination with 12-9?
There is no fascination. a 12-9 means power must be cut off and no power menass no trains. When there are no trains on a line it causes a rip[ple effect delay on other lines. If a subtalker is on an effected line we usually see a post the next day or the same evening "what happened on the ??Line today?) I amswered the question before it was asked I carry my own scanner with me to assist my customers. I have been stuck on platforms with no trains and faced the "Where is my train?" I tellt ehm "Let me check w=ith the tower" and get out my scanner. I give them the public version of the message and they are not as angry. If needed, I escort the crowd to the booth and ask them to open the block tickets and then start handing out the block tickets leaving the S/A in teh booth to handle sales and bus questions I recall at Christmas season before I was even on duty. My hours were changed and the supervisor said the General Supt. said thanks. I have even assisted PATH, Amtrak and NJT with problems (and gottent hansk from them!)
Having a scanner is a great thing for an Agent to have at work. I wouldn't advise pulling it out on the platform in a crowd of people. There might be someone there who'll take it from you. It happened to me once. Sometimes I've been able to reprogram them for different booths.
Sometimes it's good to know when the s**t is flying so you know when to duck.
Yeah it's not a good idea to DISPLAY expensive valuables on the subway like a scanner, since chances are a gangsta might try and rob you.
Best thing is to hide it in your bag, that way you don't set yourself up to be a target. Same thing goes for gold chains,etc.
That is why I don't see too many people around with those pricey minidisc players. I'd like to get one but that stuff is expensive.
Stick with tape players. They're cheap and easily replacable.
Does it mean person on the line?
AEM7
>>>>>>>Does it mean person on the line?
More like a person under the line. A T/O's worst nightmare.
Chances are, nothing will happen, even in the worst of places on the worst of lines. I've traveled with an extensive amount of camera equipment exposed, and never had a problem. Not even funny looks.
-Hank
Stick with tape players. They're cheap and easily replacable.
That's because tape players suck. Tapes are clunky, have to be rewound and the sound quality leaves much to be desired.
The best two options are MP3 player or CD player that reads CD-RWs.
Your opinion. As long as you maintain 'em, they run fine and sound great.
mp3 players hold little, only about an hour of music. Discmans are too bulky to carry around. Only minidisc is the great advance in portable digital music.
Of course in this day and age when everything just has to be digital, including subway announcements, analog just isn't welcome anymore. :-(
I guess I'm getting old.
And I see plenty of people using tape players on the subway, just as many as CD players. I like to record my own stuff, especially "railfan" soundtracks and it's easy with tape. And with all the jostling on a subway car, I'd like to see a CD survive that and not skip.
Alot of people just use radios too, though underground any reception is difficult. The original IRT stations on the West Side and BMT in Manhattan offer the best reception, probably because their closest to the surface.
And if you look in the Main street station on the number 7 line in Flushing, you'll see several big piles of cassette tapes. Now I thought music wasn't allowed in towers. Or is that just for token booths?
Personally I think music should be allowed anywhere in the subway. Whenever there is some it makes the wait that more bearable.
Personally I think music should be allowed anywhere in the subway. Whenever there is some it makes the wait that more bearable.
If it's the sort of music you happen to enjoy, that is.
Well any music to be played in subway stations would have to probably be instrumental, which is what alot of subway musicians do, so it would have the most universal appeal.
I hate to break it to you, but not everyone likes every sort of instrumental music.
Most New Yorkers have no choice but to use the subway. Don't force them to listen to music they don't want to listen to. The leaky headphones that are so popular on the subway are enough of an assault on our ears.
Urrghh, I do hate the leaky headphones. Those in-ear and open air ones are the worst offendors, often having to listen to tinny hip hop is no fun. Watch out for anything with the Coby name on it, those are the worst.
I use closed ear type headphones. While they are not as fashionable, they sure keep the sound from the outside out, and the audio in.
I guess you're right about music in subway stations, but I still feel that in towers, control rooms, and token booths it should be allowed.
Some bus drivers also play music, it is rare, but I've seen it on both NYCT and LI Bus.
As I said earlier, they probably do get away with having music on in towers, but token booths should have the same right.
In token booths? How's the agent supposed to hear what you're asking him if he's listening a CD?
Some smaller transit agencies allow bus drivers to play music on the bus. It sends a very shoddy impression. NYCT is a professional operation and it should send that message.
If it's on low I don't see a problem with it. Especially during quiet hours, it gets mighty boring in the token booth.
Then bring a book and read between customers. Anyone who can't tolerate occasional quiet times in a position of customer service should take a different job. Allowing radios in booths sends the wrong message to the public and interferes with the job.
"Personally I think music should be allowed anywhere in the subway. Whenever there is some it makes the wait that more bearable.
"
YIKES! NO! I don't want to hear *YOUR* kind of music!
(and I don'r even know what kind it is... but I *know* it ain't *my* kind!)
Perhaps some quiet elevator music might not be to bad, but I'd rather have the silence.
Why do you think I moved to NORTH DAKOTA!
: ) Elias
CDs don't pop that often on the newer machines.
They're still bulky though.
You haven't been shopping for personal electronics in some time, have you?
-Hank
Nope, not really. Since my Aiwa broke around last Xmas I've been using a Panasonic that's alot better. After having something go wrong with 3 Aiwa walkmans in 2 years , I decided to give up on them.
Aiwa is like Sony (actually they are owned by Sony corp) and the stuff just doesn't last. Panasonic is made to last, and my experience is their stuff is a lot sturdier than Aiwa/Sony.
Perhaps Sony designed the defective digital announcements on the R142's, R143's and LIRR Bilevels.
Actually the system almost never works on LIRR. What a waste of $$$.
I like to record my own stuff, especially "railfan" soundtracks and it's easy with tape.
There are MP3 players with record capablity now. Plus you can use the computer to edit.
And with all the jostling on a subway car, I'd like to see a CD survive that and not skip.
You haven't used a discman in a while, have you?
And I see plenty of people using tape players on the subway, just as many as CD players. I like to record my own stuff, especially "railfan" soundtracks and it's easy with tape. And with all the jostling on a subway car, I'd like to see a CD survive that and not skip.
Alot of people just use radios too, though underground any reception is difficult. The original IRT stations on the West Side and BMT in Manhattan offer the best reception, probably because their closest to the surface.
And if you look in the Main street station tower on the number 7 line in Flushing, you'll see several big piles of cassette tapes. Now I thought music wasn't allowed in towers. Or is that just for token booths?
Personally I think music should be allowed anywhere in the subway. Whenever there is some it makes the wait that more bearable.
Your opinion. As long as you maintain 'em, they run fine and sound great.
Still not as good as new digital equipment.
mp3 players hold little, only about an hour of music.
Depends on the model. There are hard drive based models now with HOURS of music, not to mention units with removable memory cartridges.
Discmans are too bulky to carry around.
Your opinion
What is the definition of a 12/9?
Sounds like you did a darn good job. Congratulations on looking out for the public.
What is the definition of a 12/9?
Passenger under train
So the homeless on the track would be a 12-10.
unless they got hit, when it would become a 12-9. I dont have figures, but I wopuld guess many 12-9 victims are homeless wandering in tunnels or jumpoing to the tracks to get cans, bottles, etc. or to get to the other side to see thei homeless buddikes.
Anybody who's not authorized to be on the roadbed is a 12-10.
I try! Many supervisors like me because I simplify their job. Really- I am aware of the part of my duties which states "Be awareo o station conditions and report unusual occurences..."
I use stairway numbers, benches, chaining codes, signal numbners or whatever distinugishing feature I can to identify the location of a problem.
And don't forget to get the CN number, Badge numbers, Name of hospitals, ect!
Right! I left that for the person in the booth. When I ask the booth to call in an emergency I deal with the crisis and let them do the paperwork if I have to leave the station. If I am still there I hold the booth while they get the info or I can get the info.
Attention Metrocard collectors !!
Looks like there is a new MTA Metrocard out there. Sorry for no link.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2119046345
Bill "Newkirk"
Sometime this summer there be be Lincoln Center MetroCards available from "Random MVMs" and not from Booths.
I scored one right from the horse's mouth, the MVM at 66 St. Here it is:
It must've been bad. Here in NW Nassau the temp on my thermometer read 100 degrees in the afternoon. I'm sure some subway platforms were even hotter. And those R33 singles were probably empty except for a few brave souls.
Still 90 degrees here in the hotlands of Nassau county, 86F in my A/C cooled room, 96 in my hallway, and my Kitchen is at 100 degrees!
"and my Kitchen is at 100 degrees!
"
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen! : )
Interestingly, this excessive heat in the subway problem seems to be only in New York. Our correspondents in Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco don't seem to have the platform/tunnel heat problems New York has, even with a totally air-conditioned fleet.
An air conditioned fleet is part of the problem, it takes warm air out of the cars and dumps it into the tunnels as HOT AIR.
Do these other systems have the same kind of dynamic braking, ie hot resister grids, or do they use regenerative braking, butting the power back onto the power grids?
Are their lines even underground?
Are they deeper underground with more natural cool?
Do they have several million hot sweaty bodies crowding into the cars and platforms?
Do they have a fairy godmother?
Elias
I am sure Rob will add his comments. Atlanta's stations have Air COPnditioning and heating.
Baltimore and LA regenerate, the tunnels between the stations are bored tubes. Baltimore's stations have an intermedian concorse between the first set of steps and the fare mezz - the platform is one more level down. Lexington Market has one entrance at the fare level due to a low-level plaza. All stations air-conditoned.
All the newer systems learned from the pioneers - Boston & New York.
But, as I said - the excessive heat problem seems to be a New York problem - nobody in the SubTalk community outside of NYC seems to be screaming about suffocating in the summer months in the subway. It's been going on as long as SubTalk has been around.
I am on a borrowed PC, so I am not sure that this is even going to post. I am away from home and visiting friends here. We were sitting in a restaurant in Punxsutawney PA tonight, while outside two Buffalo & Pittsburgh diesels were making up a train.
The diesels had a fairly clean paint job of orange and black. They were numbered 451 & 452, and looked and sounded like SD-45's. By the time we finished, and got outside, they had departed.
Are there any railfans on the board who know the B & P and can identify this engines? Were they really SD-45's?
I would be surprised to find that there might still be SD-45's in active service after 35 years, so I am assuming that I ID'ed these engines wrong. Can anyone help?
They are rebuilt SD45's.
Buffalo & Pittsburgh locomotive roster
Bob,
Thanks for the response, and also the link.
I am really surprised to see SD-45's still in service, and even more surprised that my identification was correct. I will be back in Punxsutawney again tomorrow, and also Friday so I may get another look at them.
They really looked good, I wish I had a camera with me.
Thanks Again,
Karl B
SD45s aren't that unusual to see in service. There are still SD40s and GP30s in service.
-Hank
CP D&H still has 38's running upstate ... they're a bit crusty, but still running.
Hi Karl: I'm sure you're familiar with the SD45's most famous spotting feature...the flared radiators butbeware..BN had one or maybe a few SD40-2 with them! The SD45-2 didn't have the flared radiators but the radiator area was loner than on SD40. Oy vay..haven't I said the MRL must have the biggest feet of SD45's in the country? There must be at least 50 of them in service on MRL, some are -2's. Also [haven't seen them in a while] there were 4 F-45's, ex Susquehanna I think, some of the SD45's were in Susie Q colors for some time...called Bumble Bees here.One came back from Susie Q still in BM colors...AND had the LIVINGSTON home shop stencil still on it! Maybe this will give you an excuse to visit Livingston MT and see SD45's running [helpers mostly]! Then there's my el layout, such as it is.
NJT GP40PH's also have flared radiators: 4802 in Atlantic City.
Perhaps Karl B remembers 20-25 years ago when most SD45's were taken out of service for fuel economy when the price of energy skyrocketed.
I had three favorite SD-45's when I was still a young picture taking railfan in the mid to late 1960's.
The D & H bought three GM Demos and numbered them 801, 2 & 3. They were the only GM power on a RR that was all ALCO & GE at the time, so they traded them to EL for 3 U33C's. When Conrail started in 1976, the trade had to be undone, and the D & H got the SD-45's back.
I have a great picture of the three of them that I took in the fall of 1976. It was a cloudy gloomy day, and they were painted in the EL paint scheme, but in D & H colors. They were at Union Dale PA, marching up the hill to Ararat Summit.
Today, the engines are gone, the railroad is gone, and that great trackage is even gone. Trains don't go over Ararat Summit anymore!
I have a better photo of a NJT GP40PH-2's flared radiator:
NJT 4201
Also a MARC GP40WH-2:
MARC 56
and a Shore Line East GP40:
SLE 6696
churchbob these are cool fotos
churchbob these are cool fotos
Thank you.
BTW, that's chuchubob, as in "choochoobob", but "choochoobob" wasn't available as a Yahoo email name so I spelled it chuchubob.
I'd heard that due to the 20 cylinder engine they had a lot of broken crankshafts [also was told by MRL's roundhouse boss that they problem was cured.] MRL sure got loads of Sd45's from several roads... an SCL one showed up here in Clinchfield black ; some SP Kodachromes as well as grey SP ones, some W&LE, Susie Q's---I had the honors of working on Montana's diesel "transit museum" We sure had the stuff! Most now repainted. I guess we got so many SD45's because they were cheap...worth less than a GP7/9 and about 1/3 the price of an SD40 on the 2nd hand market.They seem to be doing OK tho.
Ok ok ok. I spent some time trying to learn how to ID all those look-alike diesels. Surprisingly, some of the best IDing features were the position of the gas tank and the air-resevior tank. Anyway, as far as I have ever seen, no SD40 has ever had a flared radiator. However, some SD45's do not have a flared radiator. But, all 45's are noticably longer than 40's. In the GP range, some 40's have a flared radiator, but most do not. However, they are different than the 80's and 35's in that they have extra flaring before the usual dynamic brake flare in the middle of the carbody. It's reminicent of the GP-30 look.
Anyway, I just so happened t take a pic of the NJT Geep flaring on the AC Trip. If you look at the below pic. The GP40 extra dynamic flaring starts at the orange stripe, the normal dynamic flaring starts at the blue stripe and then the radiator flaring starts at the NJT logo.
This is now in effect in most of Brooklyn and the South Bronx. I imagine the subway signals don't like that. Power may go out in parts of those areas. Pray your power stays on!
Makes me wonder if there are candles and working flashlights in my house?
Yeah well maybe you should go check instead of asking us ... ;-)
I coulda sworn that the MTA got their power officially from the NYPA, not Con Edison...
I do see Con Edison meters in subways. Like on 8th street Broadway BMT.
They do indeed. Problem is inadequate transmission lines between upstate and the city ... something NEVER addressed and the politicos felt that with the crappy economy and WTC being gone, there'd be no need to provide extra capacity any longer ... so nothing got done.
But it's delivered through ConEd lines.
Wow ... pity our politicos never did anything about additional lines between here and you guys ... upstate we have PLENTY of EXCESS power, but no way to get it to you guys. Enron stole the booty and the NYPSC ain't done squatola. But Joe Bruno got his baseball stadium.
It's virtually impossible to get any powerline built in the NYC area, thanks to the NIMBYs. It's even worse on LI - I can't wait for our grid to collapse so that dickhead Kessle and his NIMBY friends can get dumped and we can get the power plants we needed 10 years ago built here.
We should have opened Shoreham. It's too bad whenever we were in the dark the last few years, Lilco didn't point that out. We'd be fine with Shoreham now. instead, we've got a treehugges asshole who can't run anything right calling the shots, and bored suburban housewives worrying about gas fired plants that pollute less than 1 /10th as much as the plants they're slated to replace.
And before anyone asks, yes, I do in fact live near a gas turbine power plant. And no, it's not loud (in fact, you can barely hear it, even at the site boundry). Actually, I live near 2 (one 70's, one brand new), and an acient oil fired steam plant. The steamer's the loudest of the three, by far. You can't hear either turbine running, but I can always tell when the steamer's going.
Well ... before I get myself tagged as a bedwetting liberal, the Albany Steam plant is just a few miles from here (I used to live right by it) - used to burn COAL, now burns natgas ... on the edge of my property are major distribution lines so ain't no NIMBYing here. Shoreham was a bad location primarily because of the difficulty of evacuation if there ever was a need. THAT I can understand, it's a real issue. The cost of improving roads for a mass evacuation would just be insane.
That all said, the problem isn't necessarily the GENERATION capability - we've got PLENTY of electrons up here in upstate New York and more coming. A new plant is being built next to the Albany Steam plant that's four times the size, another one down in Greene county and others in other locations up here.
The PROBLEM is tranmission lines of sufficient capacity to TRANSPORT the electrons. That's the reason why all those jet turbines were planned around the city last year. Not because there weren't enough electrons, but because there wasn't the CAPACITY on the transmission lines to get those electrons into the city or Lung Island. Still ain't and if one line goes down at the Dunwoodie interconnect, the city is in a heap of trouble.
But if those transmission lines were built (even if buried underground) that would solve the problem. There's two paths into the city - one through Westchester, the other under the river from Jersey. Building up EITHER would solve the problem. It's PSE&G that just acquired the Albany Steam Plant from Niagara Mohawk so it would appear that New York's "watts for tots" might well be coming across underground from Jersey. I don't think they would have purchased it otherwise. That tells me that Westchester is the problem as far as the city's power supply goes. But you guys need to settle that out somehow.
Additional power plants down your way will be required down the road, but for now there's plenty of power for the city and the island. Only problem is how do we GET it there? :)
tagged as a bedwetting liberal
No, no, no. The term is "paranoid bedwetting coward," not "liberal."
"Liberal" is used in the term "Upper West Side limousine liberal."
Hope that clears up any confusion.
Heh. The scarlet letter is used with impunity by people who can't even spell. :)
But thanks for the insurrection, now back to the Ozzy Osbourne show which is already in progress ...
Well LI has seen huge growth in the past 10 years and we need more power plants. The E.Northport site, former Kings Park Psychiatric center is a prime candidate, but the NIMBY's are trying to stop any power plant from coming.
And while NYC had enough power today, even though several areas had feeder cable problems, NYC is not in the clear. Since the city gets a large percentage of it's juice from upstate, a problem in the transmission line could cause big problems. Lets say severe thunderstorms or a fire shuts down one of the main transmission corrdiors to NYC. NYC finds itself short of power, tries to get more from LIPA and through the Farragut connection. Lines overheat from demand and trip out. Now NYC has only it's "Big Allis" plant able to function. But the unit can't keep up, and starts shutting down. Voltage reductions cannot stop the process as more generators trip out. And bam it's the blackout of'77 again. It is just as likely today. The City and LI need more generators, but the power NIMBY's hold cause strain on everything from power to transit to an area's economy. What we need to do, is just ignore NIMBY's and invoke these neccesary projects with eminant domain.
If we don't practice eminent domain for our power, our transportation, and our economy, we will all suffer.
i say let NYC fall into a blackout, point the finger at the NIMBYs and that should fix things.
People really don't understand how quiet the newest nat. gas turbines are, nor how clean and efficient the combined cycle plants are. An 88 Mw turbine plant is is quiet - you hear the faint whine of the jet engine's gearboxes, and that's it.
The big noisemarker on a jet engine is actually the gearbox - they're very loud. The air noise is quite easy to muffle in a stationary application. In any case, next time you're at an airport and can watch planes takeoff/lannd, listen as they taxi, you'll note the gearbox noise dominates. When they roll for takeoff, the airflow noise becomes greater.
I live a few blocks from one of these plants. You seriously can not tell when it's running by listening. Even outside it, you can barely tell it's running. And this is in a fairly quiet residential area.
(We should have opened Shoreham. It's too bad whenever we were in the dark the last few years, Lilco didn't point that out. We'd be fine with Shoreham now. instead, we've got a treehugges asshole who can't run anything right calling the shots)
He's trying to built windmills. I think it's a good idea, but the NIMBYs are out to stop him.
Windmills??? They've been around since farms started!!! These NIMBY's are sick in the head. They should be send to Creedmoor! Or Kings Park Psych center, when the recking balls hit!
I don't believe ConEd has a power shortage, it is that the feeder cables (most of them underground) are overheating from the strain of demand in those areas. A cable rated at say 20kV is trying to carry more due to high demand, and it is overheating.
This doesn't happen in LIPA territory as much, as almost all lines are above ground.
The "street distribution" is also a problem but ConEd HAS been going to fatter wires where they can as part of routine upgrades or replacements when things fall down completely. But the BIG problem that requires the brownouts AREAWIDE (not just at a particular substation or neighborhood) is saturation of the biggie lines into the city. It's been six years since I worked at the PSC but at that time, during peak, 40% of the NYC area's power was imported. Generation capacity within the local grid has actually DIMINISHED since but I don't know what percent is imported now ... it will be more than before however and there's been no increase in transmission line capacity. If and when we have an economy again, that's going to hurt ... bigtime ...
All the squatolas responses....Con Ed does not reduce power. What they do is to reduce VOLTAGE in anticipation of lower power demands of resistive loads like lightbulbs. AC motors continue to demand the same wattage and will burn out without low voltage protection. It's hot in Joisey too...I'm hunting Mr. Coyote with appropriate center fire wearing nothing but sandals and a slingshot. Standard warm weather CI protective gear.
God, what is your problem? This is like your 8th post on the heat. Give it a rest already. You bitch when it's hot, you bitch when it's cold. Aren't you ever happy? Give it a freakin' rest already. Deal with it, like everyone else is . GEEZ!
Peace,
ANDEE
< rant mode >
And maybe we'll get lucky, your power will go out and stay out and you won't be able to post such drivel. Give it a rest already! We all know it's hot... it is summer, after all... and it's going to be hot whether we like it or not. All your bitching does is raise the temperature and everyone's blood pressure!
< /rant mode >
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did the R-40 slants have marker light as pictured in this photo.
I don't know, but that was back when the R-40 slants looked awesome! The extra metal on their face now is a travesty.
The extra metal does give them a sort of odd insectile look, but if you ever walked between two end cars while they were in service (before the added railings) you'd know instantly why they had to do it.
The original R40 ends are a classic example of an error in industrial design.
I think they are a rare example of allowing someone with style ("Raymond Lowey of Pennsylvania Railroad GG-1 fame") the freedom to design what he thought would be good looking cars. And he did a good job. I wish they'd be able to remove the railing and those metal springy things from the first and last cars. Similar to how the R-143's (and other previous models) manage to have a clean face while the inbetween cars have all the safety features. But I know that in reality this can't be done because it was not designed that way. That's why we have photos from the past. And that's why I take photos now - to remember the past.
It looks like there were loops on the original designs to install the oversized springs like the R-44,46,62,68,110a,110B,142,143. That would have looked a hell of a lot better than the scissor like gates.
The semi-new R62s and R62As have sissor gates. But the R68 and R68As don't for some reason.
That kind of scissor gate with the metal frame is called a pantograph, just like the power collectors on top of a GG1.
Yes, the first of the cars did. Later R40 slants lacked them.
-Hank
That was the "Express" "Local" light. The switch is still inside the cabs today.
Where does it go?
It's at the upper corner nearest to the emergency brake. Facing the doorway.
Gee, let's see if we can figure this out together given the meager evidence we have.
1) We have a photo of a pre-GOH R-40 slant!
2)The photo shows that the cars had a red "express" and green "local" marker light.
So let's see - photo shows R-40S. R-40S had a marker light. From this we'd have to conclude that ____________ (you fill in hte blank) - Duh.
By the same logic, 76th St exists.
-Hank
now lets not start that 76st myth thing again...
"Tear it down!" :)
"By the same logic, 76th St exists."
Ah, but 76th Street does exist. I've actually driven on it when I had a business in Howard beach. However, there is no implied linkage with the alleged station, there. The 'markers' on the R-40 did exist - I worked on them. The station may have been a drawing on some modelboard but I know of no one who's ever seen the station.
Now was that an 8 car train?
That is the Express/Green and Local/Red indicators. These are the ones you can still find on the Redbirds. The R-32, R-38, and R-40S all had these too. They were removed when they went through GOH. At least the 40S didn't lose it's rollsign with it like the 33 & 38's.
Did marker lights have subway cars to display and carry them around?
From the Sydney [Australia] Morning Herald. They report a suggestion
for some major transit improvements in Sydney.
Subway lover that I am, I recognize that buses, properly used, are usually
cheaper and faster, particularly for less populous areas. Something
like this would work in New York -- provided some serious bus-only streets
and expressway-lanes are there to handle the load.
For Brooklyn, I'd dedicate either the BB tunnel or the BBridge to busses
only, along with dedicated Gowanus/BQE lanes. Queens'd either get the 59th
St Bridge or the QM tunnel, with dedicated BQE/LIE lanes. The Bronx would
get something similar. West St. and First Avenue would be bus only. There
would be crosstown busses on bus-only streets, about 5 blocks apart. There'd
be lotsa cops and tow trucks to keep the bus only streets clear.
Nice post, wrong location.
Try BusTalk
Bill "Newkirk"
Roo bars definetly over anticlimbers.
Mayor Acknowledges M.T.A. May Have to Raise Fares in '03
By MICHAEL COOPER
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg acknowledged yesterday what some transportation experts and ratings agencies have been saying for some time: the Metropolitan Transportation Authority may need to raise fares next year.
For the full story, http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/04/nyregion/04FARE.html
-Hank
I loved the "it's premature to discuss a fare increase" from da gov's staff. Yeah, it ain't NOVEMBER yet. Sheesh. What a pander bear. But Joe Bruno got his BASEBALL STADIUM and that cost about 5% of what the MTA needs to break even right there. That money could have helped if it wasn't spent on a baseball stadium out in the middle of a trailer park.
Keep in mind that Mike Bloomberg is above all - a business man (a very rich one at that).
Businessmen like him have no problems about raising prices regardless of the impact to the consumer.
Pataki on the otherhand is a politician first so he will put the consumer (at least on paper) ahead especially during an election year.
Will the fare increase in 2003 - who knows?
It SHOULD have gone up this year.
-Hank
Ummm ... while the city has representation on the MTA board, it's a MINORITY representation. The mayor of New York can no more singlehandedly raise fares than *I* can. If he can manage to pursuade the Long Island members, the Westchester, Rockland and Dutchess members perhaps, but they're all beholden to the Governor who can say "nah-ah-ah" and while the Gov has no vote on the board, you don't cross the second floor if you're a political appointee to the MTA board and have hopes of a future promotion.
If the fare goes up, it won't be Mayor Mike, it'll be Paturkey ...
Of course it's the fault of the employees asking for a huge raise. I haven't heard anything from the union as to what's going on with our contract or if they're even negotiating yet.
Here's the same story from Thursday's Daily News. It will be interesting to see how this plays out not only with Pataki, but with Cuomo and McCall, since Bloomberg's statement places the possibility of a fare hike in the political spotlight, where it hadn't been until now.
No doubt Pataki won't be very happy with Mike for putting this forward, since he's now going to have to say something about the future of the $1.50 fare before the November election. With his current lead in the polls he might be able to get away with saying a fare hike is possible, but there's no way he's going to go as far as Bloomberg (who doen't have to run againt until 2005 -- politicians are almost always at their bravest the year after they win a four-year term).
At the same time, it alo means Cuomo and McCall will have to state their positions on raising the fare. The most likely one would be to guarentee no fare hike if elected, and then if they do win come back and jack up the fare to at least $1.75 next year while blaming it on Bush, Minetta and Congress -- something Pataki definitely cannot do (or, of course, the or George could order the MTA to go back to deferred maintenance of the 1960s and 70s to keep the fare at $1.50, and we all know how much fun that caused).
Well, you know what? As long as all the percentage discounts continue for the various MetroCards, I can see it.
People forget that because of the various MC discounts, that the average price of a subway trip is down to about $1.05
Therefore, it seems to me that the people who use the system the most will be affected the least.
For instance, I use the subway to get to and from work every day. But I seldom use it otherwise, so I buy the 11-for-10 MetroCard. I get a small discount.
On the other hand, someone who uses the subway many times a day would -- while still paying more up front for their MetroCard -- probably still pay *much less* per trip than I do. It's congestion pricing. I think it will work. I'm for it.
Anything that helps promote continued improvements to the subways, I personally am all for.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Cars 6391-95 and Cars 6401-03 were travelling south this evening without 6404-05. A diesel was following behind the train. Has something happened?
-Stef
6496-6500 were pushing 6405 and 6404 just moments ago. A Flagman was in the front, T/O was in the operating cab. There appeared to be a large object in 6405. A linkbar?
There was no power in Car 6404, and no power in 6403, on the previous train. Looks like the flagman was in the dark....
-Stef
And I thought the R=142s had just had their first fight...:-)
Guess what? They had a pull apart! And not from the coupler, From a link bar! What great cars we have here!
Uh oh! That's a no no. Yikes.
-Stef
These cars are the second coming of the R44's.
Don't say that! We don't need to wish for more trouble. Heh.
-Stef
It's a case of a disorderly R-142 that just won't cooperate today.
-Stef
Hah, A R-62 or redbird can handle a brownout but a R-142A will just go into emergency and not move.
Mark, my source WAS correct! I had heard about this earlier yesterday from one of 'your homies'.
Was that train in-service when the incident occurred?
Sounds like a case of metal-fatigue (to go along with folks suffering from heat-fatigue). If the R-142's had a link-bar problem so early in their running, keep your hats on....we ain't seen nothing yet.
That's Japanese steel for ya! Remember the '73 Fords? That's the year they tried to use Japanese steel, and what a mistake that turned out to be! Garbage then, garbage now!
And what do Canadian cars have to do with Japanese steel?????
I thought those cars were manufactured by Kawasaki. That's what it says in the roster anyway.
What does a plane manufacturer (bomdadier) have to do with trains?
Umm...Bombardier built the R-142s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bombardier is one of the worlds largest manufacturers of transportation systems. Planes, trains, busses, snowmobiles...anything that can get you there they can and do make. Problem with R142s is that too many hands got involved spoiling the product. Time can heal wounds and the vendors are stuck with problems they created until trainsets become reliable for RTO service. In the meantime, Redbirds continue to fill the gap and provide RELIABLE service despite their age. CI Peter
I'm fully aware of what Bombardier manufactures. It's BUILDMORELINES who seems perplexed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry about that...no offense intended. CI Peter.
'In the Hole BIE SPEAK ENGLISH.'
No offense taken.
Peace,
ANDEE
ANd the redbirds aren't affected by brownouts to the point where the train will not get out of emergency.
Duh, "Buildmore", where do you get all of this incorrect inside information? You might want to listen more and pontificate less.
2 sundays ago there was a brownout at GCS on the 4,5,6 lines. A 6 train was stuck hlaf way into the northbound local track. A R-142A had a BIE due to a brownout, the t/o recharged and then the train immidiatly went into BIE and he gave up. A R-62 4 passed me on the local track and later redbird 5. This was around 8:40 PM. I had brief chat with the T/O until he went back and tryed agian and the train worked and he pulled all the way into the station. The T/O said the he can't move the train because Con-Ed brownouted the system. The brownout was over after 10 minutes. The time 19:47 out of Brooklyn Bridge is what I think the train was but don't quoate me on it. I did write down the real time but I have to find it.
If anything, an R142 and R142A can get out of a brownout. Wasn't there stuff about there being enough power left in an R142/R142A's "reserve" to get it to the next station in case something happens?
You seem to be drawing an incorrect conclusion based on one observation. The converter on all NYCT cars are designed to shut down if 3rd rail voltage dips below 475 VDC. Converter drops out - CHOW.
The converter on all NYCT cars are designed to shut down if
3rd rail voltage dips below 475 VDC. Converter drops out
- CHOW.
Whoa, I don't get that! Obviously the train doesn't go in the
hole everytime a 3rd rail gap is encountered. The only thing close
I've heard of is that on ECAM equipment dropping the B3 will cause
a BIE although I don't understand the circuit that causes that.
Jeff, you are correct They don't go into emergency but will eventually lose power if the 'brown-out' is severe enough. By the same token, I don't believe that the R-142s will go into emergency with an 8% Con-Ed reduction.
Oh OK I see what you mean. Agreed, even a 10 or 20% third rail
voltage reduction shouldn't cause BIEs.
This thing with dropping the B3 and causing an emergency application
is fairly new. On "old school" equipment a loss of battery
would not do that.
One thing about R142s is that the design of the electronics package must survive the constant transients posed by a cast steel shoe making contact with a forged steel third rail of known high DC resistive losses. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to analyse actual 'foot by foot' voltage measurements which could now be done so easily. As long as one 'B car' makes proper contact, things are 'hunky dory.' A trainset off-rail with operative nicad cells will have systems live for hours...a loss of air pressure after will engage mechanical parking brakes presumably before a BIE. CI Peter
As long as one 'B car' makes proper contact,
things are 'hunky dory.'
There is no busline 600VDC between cars in a set, is there?
So, in a 5 car ABBBA set, if 2 of the B cars are sitting on
a gap, wouldn't the converters and compressors in those cars
be dead? Does a single B car have enough capacity to supply
4 other cars?
As I understand it, on the 142s, there is no trainline air or
B+ between two link sets.
The train would be able to move in the event of a power loss? Do you know the distance involved if so? Maybe through one of the east river tubes?
No trainset would be able to move in a power loss from the third rail. My comments specifically addressed failures in battery or invertor. As long as there is one car making contact with a live third rail, the trainset will move. As long as there is only one battery set feeding trainline, all R142 control systems will remain alive and kicking. What fully charged batteries will not do is provide motor (propulsion power,) HVAC and air compressor. One big drain that goes unoticed by the public is lighting...the fluorescent lights all use 37.5 volt transistorised invertors that depend upon the batteries and the convertor. If an R142 engages complete power failure it will continue to move 'free wheeling' until gravity overcomes the momentum or the T/O operates the brakes draining the reserve air below 90 PSI when the parking brakes automatically engage. CI Peter
One thing about R142s is that the design of the electronics package must survive the constant transients posed by a cast steel shoe making contact with a forged steel third rail of known high DC resistive losses. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to analyse actual 'foot by foot' voltage measurements which could now be done so easily. As long as one 'B car' makes proper contact, things are 'hunky dory.' A trainset off-rail with operative nicad cells will have systems live for hours...a loss of air pressure after will engage mechanical parking brakes presumably before a BIE. CI Peter
Let me get this straight:
A subway train, of multiple-unit cars with motors that are supposed to start all at once, pulled apart like a freight train with locos pulling thousands of tons of objects at the point would after thousands of miles of service???
Not a good sign. Then again its summer in NYC. Stranger things have happened.
Such baloney!!!! (balogna) 'A' car seperated coupling from 'B' car in linkage and electric cables (linkage) broken but pneumatic hoses not seperated. T/O lost power, trainset hung up 28 minutes. Manufacturer left out crucial pin in linkage. 'Willoghby, this stop is Willoughby, Next stop Twilight Zone.' CI Peter
Thats Right!!! It happened southbound in the River tube south of 149 St Grand Concause in service. It was the 8th car at the time. Also it pulled apart again during testing.
Please guys, lets not get carried away. The sky ain't falling yet. There was no testing and the cars did not pull apart again. There was a mechanical failure in and around the draft gear & link bar. This is very rare but it's happened before. I can only remember it happening on R-38 and possibly R-44 (one time each). In any event, when a linkbar failure occurs there is extensive damage to the greenfield cables that carry trainline info. It'll be a while before these cars will be re-married and tested.
Dame lucky that no one feel though the gap while the train split apart.
Robert
Thanks for the currection. There was a heavy rumor going around about the second pull apart.
The TA runs on paper and rumors.
Do the rumors come on a roll too? :)
There was a pull-apart in 180 yard. The TLD showed all connections made for a 10 car train and when they went to move OOPS!
The TOD will not indicate mechanical failure. You should count the number of stretched out safety springs in the junkpiles...most resulted from T/Os failing to properly couple up five car trainsets together. The best is when the stretched out broken spring contacts the third rail...July 4th all year.
I never said that the screen showed a mechanical failure. If all the cars are coupled correctly the screen would show your consist.
The last R44 pullapart I recall happened around 145 Street years ago and was blamed on a missing cotter pin which allowed a pin and nut assembly to walk out of the link bars ends. I somehow see the same cause here.
There's Bombardier for ya.
Why do you think their name starts with 'Bomb'? Self explanatory, huh? ;-D
But then again, you can always say "Kawasucky"
LOL!
Remember BombBardIer is the Bomb-Bard-Ier for quality trains.
A pull apart from a LINK BAR? That's ALL BAD! I hope that nobody was aboard when it happened.
wayne
So not really divorced - just a trial separation.
A linkage pin was ommited by the manufacturer and an 'A' car seperated from a 'B' car with hoses remaining intact but the T/O lost power and the trainset came to a halt without BIE. The delay was twenty eight minutes in legnth, passengers were escorted out of the trainset through the tunnel and the defect is NOT visible to CIs in the inspection process. Redbirds continue to replace R142s in RTO service. A previous problem was an R142 B car losing both AC units...the passengers held the doors open demanding AC repair until the arrival of TAPD. The loss was charged to TAPD for holding up RTO schedule. Always 'bring your own JUICE' when riding Bombardier R142s. CI Peter
If both of the trainline control networks are severed on a 142,
what happens? Does the train go into emergency?
I would hope so...
The initial delay may have been 28 minutes but the total delay was 111 minutes.
111 minutes is always as good as a random call down with nine minutes to spare. Haven't heard the 'YaMon call-up from Putzburgh' concerning missing parts, just the PA blaring for me cuz another CI is missing for Red Hot Redbirdsky Undercar. Now I really know what 'baloney springs' are for...and I'll take BORING R142 Carbody assignments over to 239th anytime during the summer.
With recent talk about Car 6666 and a stuck controller, I'd thought I'd mention what an unlucky car it is-
Car 6666 went BIE at Jackson Av this afternoon, but moved out rather quickly.
On the R-32 front, Cars 3558 and 3559 were coupled together, but with different partners! How often do you get that? It's a case of Odd Couples swinging together.
-Stef
Must have been Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. Were 3558 and 3559 on speaking terms?:-)
They were on friendly terms, but didn't share the same bond they used to have. Lol!
-Stef
I'm sure there was a "Hey - long time no see!" included in the pleasantries.:-) Next thing you know they'll reconcile and ask to be rejoined together.
What cars are used on the LIRR Port Jefferson branch? Do they use the double decker cars or only the MU's? I remember being at Mineola last year and trains with double decker cars were all coming off the Oyster Bay branch. I'm hoping the Port Jeff branch also has the double decker cars since I might be riding that line soon.
Electric service on the PJ Branch only goes as far as Huntington. Diesel service is provided between Huntington & Port Jefferson.
and Diesel service means the double-deckers, along with the F-59PHI in diesel mode.
A nice comfortable train (been on them). I want them to run faster (and what I want depends on a lot of other things much more than the trainsets), but overall I like them.
A nice comfortable train (been on them). I want them to run faster (and what I want depends on a lot of other things much more than the trainsets), but overall I like them.
The seats on the diesel coaches are much more spacious than those on the MU's. Plus, there's none of that wretched 3-across seating.
The train I'm looking to take requires a transfer at Huntington. Does that mean it will be electric Mu's out to Huntington and then a change to double-deckers? Or not necessarily?
The train I'm looking to take requires a transfer at Huntington. Does that mean it will be electric Mu's out to Huntington and then a change to double-deckers?
Yes
Boo. I wanted double-deckers all the way. Oh well. Thanks for replying.
Approximately alternate PJ trains on weekends (including July 4 only) originate at Hicksville, so you can see the entire line from a DD. They are the 7:04a, 10:04a, 1:04p, 4:04p, 7:04p departures from Hicksville.
You are not getting a complete answer:
Service to points west from Port Jefferson is widely mixed throughout the day.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, terminate at Huntington, and an Electric train continues to the city.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, terminate at Hicksville, and an Electric train continues to the city.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, and continue all the way to Penn Station with no transfers. There are approxomately two of these in each direction each weekday during peak hours. They take advantage of new dual-mode capability.
One Diesel train leaves from Stony Brook (why, I don't know) and connects with Electric service at Huntington.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, terminate at Jamaica, where Electric service continues to NYC.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, terminate at Hunterspoint Ave, with connecting service available at Jamaica to other points west.
But no matter what, all trains are diesel on the un-electrified track betwen Port Jefferson and Huntington. It depends on which train you take as to how far towards the city that diesel train will go.
Now, you want double deckers all the way. Here are your options:
Weekday towards Port Jeff:
4:19 depart Penn
6:05 arrive Port Jeff
peak (stops at Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville, Huntington, then local)
106 minutes
4:49 depart Penn
6:36 arrive Port Jeff
peak (stops at Jamaica, Huntington, then local)
107 minutes
Weekday towards Penn Station:
5:44am depart Port Jeff
7:20am arrive Penn Station
peak (local stops to Greenlawn, then express to Jamaica and Penn)
96 minutes
7:35am depart Port Jeff
9:23am arrive Penn Station
peak (local stops to Hicksville, then Mineola, Jamaica, and Penn)
108 minutes
No direct weekend service. Why? I don't know. What a waste of expensive captial investment!!!!
Hope this helps!
-Andrew Merelis
Train 657 actually departs Port Jeff when 660 comes in. It starts picking up passengers at Stony Brook because it is a single tracked line with controlled sidings, and with the 10 minute each way between PJ and SB would not give enough time for its meet with 662, unless the train leaves earlier between 658 and 660 with a new Huntington connection departure. Weekends right now only have trains going as far as Hicksville from PJ because of the Montauk Branch trackwork west of Valley Interlocking, and with that in mind, most diesel trains east of Babylon are being diverted onto the connecting Central Branch which runs from Babylon to B interlocking (Bethpage, and the Main Line), and continues west through Divide Interlocking (Hicksville) where the PJ Branch connects with the Main Line. 2 Westbounds, and 3 Eastbounds on the Montauk Branch temporarilly have through trains to Penn Station (1 westbound from Speonk, and Patchogue, and 2 Eastbounds to Patchogue, and 1 to Speonk). With demand on the PJ branch stations, I am sure that eventually more trains from Port Jeff will be direct to Penn Station. In reality, once the GCT connector opens, most trains will go direct to Penn Station, once more spaces through the East River Tunnels open up.
F59PHI??????
LIRR doesn't have any such animals.
Try a DM30 for the dual modes.
Check the roster...they're aliased to the F-59s
Under the MTA Capital Plans section, I see a contract labeled 'R34156' for nine diesel-electric locomotives. Are all 'R' contracts labeled 'R34###', thus the R142 are actually 'R34142'?
-Hank
Hank is correct. Before the "contract" numbers went over 99, the leading digits were "314." The overhaul of the R-29 cars was contract R-31499.
David
Hello. I have noticed that on a few signals in the Subway, there are times when the Station-Time aspect is on even though there is no train directly past it. There is one such signal approaching Brighton Beach and another one approaching Atlantic Avenue, both on the southbound Brighton Line. However, according to the signals page on this website, the Station-Time aspect is only supposed to be active when there is a train immediately past it. So, what is going on with these signals?
- Lyle Goldman
The signals are always on.
They only act differently when there is a train in the station ahead.
Grade Time signals are always effective, and normally Red.
Station Timers just stop "looking" at the farthest part of their block when an approaching train has run the timer. They would normally be Green, or Yellow.
Put GT and ST together on the same signal, and you get one that's normally red (GT) but displays "20" or whatever ST speed, because the conditions are met for the ST timer to run as well.
Since there is no train anywhere in advance, the signal clears when the GT timer runs out, which is sligtly sooner than the ST.
Where is the illuminated ST coming from, the back contact of the
ST U relay? Should not that circuit also be broken through back
contacts of the track relays in advance that are cut-around by
the timer front contacts? Otherwise you get this exact
sloppiness of having ST on with no train in the station.
On a related note, as a result of the new Queen Plaza re/over-signaling project, there are some interesting semantics.
I believe I've mentioned that when leaving on D4 track with a
G/Y lineup, I've seen the signal display Y/R briefly just as
the train passes it. More consistently, at 36 St, when the tower
clears the route northbound onto the local track, the automatic
just beyond the switch, which was solid red, briefly displays
Red/ST20, then yellow, then green. Odd!
...at 36 St, when the tower clears the route northbound onto the local track, the automatic just beyond the switch, which was solid red, briefly displays Red/ST20, then yellow, then green. Odd!
That seems right. Automatics leaving plants will stay red until a route leads to them, to prevent over-reading. When the route is lined, and the stop is driving, all the conditions for the "20" to be lit are met briefly until the signal clears.
Then they are not really "automatics", are they? I don't believe
this behavior was typical for unit lever plants.
Then they are not really "automatics", are they? I don't believe
this behavior was typical for unit lever plants.
It's a wierd case, they're like "demi-automatics." They aren't lever controlled like an approach, but still affected by the plant indirectly.
I don't know how universally the rule about over-reading is applied at the TA. There are cases like the NB switch in the Montague Tube where you see a bottom yellow for Broad St, but then clear automatics leading up to Whitehall.
Gentlemen,
After observing QueensPlaza new signals, when they clear from RED on their normal GT settings they flash YELLOW to GREEN all the time. Though this heat I've been taking the N/W more then the R >G< and the timer before the platform up there (not changed hehe) does not do this.
"lazy distants"
The more I read the orinal post the more I think he and others are confusing grade and ST signals.
How do you know station-time is in effect, and not grade-time?
There's a little number lit up in the place of the "G" or "D". A white number usually indicates the speed to approach to expect it to clear.
Even though the little number is lit up, it still could be a grade-time signal. We have a bunch of those on the White Plains line, north of Gun Hill Rd.
Perhaps they put a number instead of the white light like most of them do?
Yes. And the numbers are yellow, which some T/O's don't like. Most T/O's are used to the white light that is associated with a "one-shot" timer.
My favorite is at the south end of 238 on the 1 it says 22 when on station time but it is also an approach to the homeball at the north end of the station. Sometimes it clears sometimes it does'nt.
They had the Station-Time aspect (the little speed number). They could be Grade-Time signals, too, but it was the Station-Time aspect that was on.
Here's a little more information. Between De Kalb Avenue and Atlantic Avenue on the southbound Brighton Line, there is a series of Two-Shot Grade-Time signals. Most of them clear upon approach of the Y/S (Yellow with an S under it). However, the last one, right in front of the station, doesn't clear on approach of the Y/S. Instead, it is always red with the little number lit up, even when no train is right past it, every time my train approaches it. However, from the signals page on the website, it would seem that the Station-Time aspect (red with the little number lit up) should only be active when there is a train a small distance past it. In this case, however, that is not always the case. That is what's confusing me. Does anyone know what exactly I'm referring to?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes. Instead if the lunar white, they put a number. I think that's the situation the original poster was referring to.
It has a number, this isn't a grade timer, it is a grade DIE AT'er. The train has to be under 5mph almost stopped for it to clear (from frequent observation).
Not out in Brighton. The one out in Brighton acts just like a lunar white but with a station time plate.
Is that Brighton Line signal the one on the southbound track just north of (just before entering) the Atlantic Avenue station? That was converted some time ago to a one-shot grade timer (which immediately follows a series of two-shot grade timers but is not coordinated with them). I believe that the station timer function still works; there are some timers in the system that function either way, and in those cases usually there's both a "S" (proper "Speed") plate and a plate with a number on it indicating the speed limit under station time -- this one has only the number.
David
A lit number implies that a lower-than-posted speed is required, becuase the far end of the block in advance is occupied by a leaving train.
Since GT's are always active, and time to the posted speed, why would you need to specify a different speed on a GT signal head?
I'm not saying that you couldn't ever have a GT which displays a lit speed aspect, but it would be a departure from typical TA signal practise.
The signal I'm talking about IS a departure from standard practice. It was not built the way it is now -- it's a kludge.
David
I guess we come back to the question of how is the ST numeral
aspect illuminated? I've never seen typicals on this, and it
is a fairly recent practice (late 1960s onward). Typical STs
don't have any indicator.
As you said further up the thread, typical ST is that once the
train enters the timing section (often the track circuit immediately
in approach to the signal in question), the time element relay
starts running. When it runs time, it cuts around some of the
front contacts of track circuits in advance (the "dotted" portion
of the control line). So what makes the numeral come on? The
clean way would be to "just add a line circuit" that breaks on
the back contacts of the dotted portion, and the front contacts
of the solid portion, so the light comes on when station timing
is actually in effect. The cheap way is to just check through
the solid section, i.e. re-use the existing line circuit, and of
course break through the back contact of H, HS, V or DV as
appropriate. So, if that is the case, the numeral will come on
whenever the signal is at danger and the track in the solid portion
of the control line is clear, regardless of whether something
else is holding the signal down (tower control, grade time).
Just a theory.;
The last one.
No. It's on the A1 Track prior to entering the Brighton Beach Station. Red/#/Red. It's a home signal with both lights red till it clears and a number aspect. If I remember correctly, it used to be a traditional timer but one day I saw it and was expecting a train ahead but I looked on one more station down and didn't see anything.
Speaking of station signals, There is a little yellow speed sign that once in a while you'll see the letters "ST" on it which to me indicates that there is a station time signal ahead.
#3 West End Jeff
If it's a One-Shot Grade Timer, why does it normally display the Station-Time aspect, and why does the signal before it have a lit "S" under it?
- Lyle Goldman
As I said, it was built as a station timer. When it was modified, the plate was not replaced. It is not coordinated with the two-shots preceding it (the ones with the "S" plates).
David
Like Lyle G said, two-shots are coordinated with the signal in approach, which displays "S" only if the NEXT signal is a 2-shot.
By rights, if there is a ST condition on a signal that's GT-ST, then the preceeding head should not display an "S"
But remember, the NYCS is so huge, that there isn't the exacting standardization of practise you would find on a smaller road.
If this signal had been built as a grade timer, it likely would have been the last two-shot in the series and would have been coordinated with the two-shots preceding it. This signal, however, was built with a station timing element ONLY, thus the lighted "15" speed plate. It was converted around 2 years ago to a one-shot grade timer, not a two-shot, but the "15" plate remains, so it LOOKS like a station timer -- but it isn't anymore.
David
Then why does the preceding signal have an illuminated S? This means to me that the next signal (your convert) should clear if I approach the S at the posted speed. Or am I missing something here?
If it is now a single-shot timer with no posted speed, who do we get to fix the damned thing?
Because it's one of them newfangled "three shots" based on the Mega Millions campaign. Sheesh. :)
Yeah, 3 shots, then "you're out" pounding the pavement!
Is it a rule that there must be a posted speed for GT's? I know you normally see a GT15 sign, but sometimes you just get a "T" at the beginning of the timing section. I dunno.
It's not a rule - the T sign is enough. However, when a GT XX plate exists, all the timers following it are supposed to clear at that speed until a new plate with a different speed appears - like going NB from 59 to 36, where the GT speed goes from 30 down to 15.
My problem is timers with no GT or T plate beforehand, such as X2 on C2 Track and the following automatic going into Bedford Park Middle - both are on time, but there is no warning.
There used to be an ST plate on that automatic just outside of Bedford Park center and another in the center of the platform. I've done that one 30 years ago ...
The preceding signal has an illuminated "S" because it is a grade timer and was built as such. The signal I'm talking about was built only as a station timer (with an illuminated "15"), and it was converted to a one-shot grade timer (though I believe the station time mechanism is still in place and functional as well) WITHOUT ADDING A LUNAR WHITE ASPECT OR AN ILLUMINATED "S" for some reason.
It is something that should be brought to the attention of the Signals people.
David
The preceding signal has an illuminated "S" because it is a grade timer and was built as such.
No signal with an "S" is a GT just because of the "S" aspect. All the "S" proves is that the NEXT signal is a GT. The signal could be a GT if the signal before it has an "S," as in a long string of timers on a down grade.
Remember, "S" means 2-shot, and how could you get your second shot if the "S" signal is the one timing you?
"1st shot" is approaching the Y/S and "2nd shot" is appraching the actual GT which is stays Red if your train crosses the 1st timing section too soon.
it was converted to a one-shot grade timer ... WITHOUT ADDING A LUNAR WHITE ASPECT OR AN ILLUMINATED "S" for some reason.
GT's do not require that any extra aspect be displayed, (but it's a good idea). Case and point are the GT's in the 14th St tubes, where the T/O simply wraps it up, and flys down the hill facing red signals with stops raised.
I thought that the "S" meant that the next signal past that one was the 2-Shot Grade-Time signal. However, the signal before the signal in question has the "S" under it. If the signal in question is a 1-Shot Grade Timer, what's the "S" for?
- Lyle Goldman
Rule 66(e) GRADE TIME "GT" SIGNAL
A fixed signal used to enforce a predetermined speed on descending grades or at other locations; this signal is always preceded by a Time Control "T" Sign and a sign designating the allowable speed in miles per hour or by a "GT" Sign.
(f) "S" SIGNAL
A fixed signal bearing the letter "S" which, when illuminated together with a caution indiction, indicates that the Grade Time Signal immediately in advance is displaying a STOP indication which may be cleared by a train approaching said "S" signal at a predetermined speed.
David
From DeKalb the signals go:
Y/G (X96); R/LW; Y/G/S; Y/S; Y/S; R/15; Atlantic Ave
Passing the second Y over ill.S at the posted speed should make the R/15 clear, but doesn't. However, holding a steady 10mph from that signal will get the R/15 to clear about 15 feet in front of the train (if you don't mind playing chicken).
So, the last Y/S just doesn't upgrade to green, then? (ever?)
Truth is stranger than fiction.
"Braaak Braaak, Polly shouldn't be!"
I'm not sure - I could crawl at it and see what happens, but someone on board will probably complain.
someone on board will probably complain
Well yeah, there's that.
DeKalb is enough of a crawl as it is!
maybe this is just the exception that proves the rest of the rules...
Sounds like one of those locations where the control line
lengths were increased as part of the 1995 WB over-reaction.
I know those rules. However, like I've been saying, the signals that I am referring to don't seem to follow those rules.
- Lyle Goldman
They way they taught me was. the Yellow S was "approach me at allowable speed and the next signal will clear" the lunar red "approach me at allowable speed and I will clear" and when the GT sohlud yellow with no S it was "wake uo stupid the next one is red and is not going to clear for you."
That's the way I remember it too ... so what's changed? :)
So far all I've seen is 10's and 15's instead of 15's and 20's ...
Nothing's changed.
Lotta the new signals have LED 20's instead of lit plates.
-But CBTC will use some clever algorhythm to revise the allowable speed second to second. I just hope the software engineers remember to carry the two.
I dunno ... the way things have been going, the system won't be happy until all trains are operated from end to end in switching. What's that smell? :)
remember, its not MTA NYCRT :-)
Heh. Yeah, I have to keep slapping myself. :)
That's what I thought, too. However, that doesn't seem to be happening with this particular signal.
- Lyle Goldman
> It has a number, this isn't a grade timer, it is a grade DIE AT'er.
Could you explain this further, please?
- Lyle Goldman
> There's a little number lit up in the place of the "G" or "D".
I've never seen a "G" lit up under a signal. What does that indicate?
- Lyle Goldman
I couldn't find a "G" in the rule book. Closest I could come was "GF" for Gap Filler.
David
The signal in approach to a 2-shot GT / ST signal shouldn't display the "S" unless the whole block is clear, i.e: ST is not in effect.
One-shots are "dicier" so if you couldn't see down the tracks, I guess you'd be careful and assume the longer, ST, timer.
A lotta times the only clue to ST is the yellow "ST-20" sign, since the lighted number is not present on the signal in many cases.
It seems that almost every R143 in the fleet makes a squealing stop. Yesterday, I had to quickly put on my ear plugs because one of the 143's was making a total racket while making a stop. And this was outside!
Are any of the managers in the TA aware of this? And if so, are they in the plans of correcting this? It doesn't seem right that these new cars should be operating like crap.
I hear the brakes on both the R-142 and R-143 are of such a design that the squealing noise is normal, acceptable, and not going away any time soon.
The R142A's are the same way.
The R-143 sounds exactly like the R-142A -- and, yes, that brake squeal is painful. The R-142 isn't nearly as bad, although it sometimes has a slight squeal as well.
Get used to it, especially if the R-160 bid goes to Kawasaki.
But for people living on els it could be a problem. You just know that people who live there will start complaining about the brake noise.
Give the TA some time to get used to them. I'm sure in time, they'll come up with composite Buster Brown shoes made of sponges and cardboard that'll be nice and quiet just like they did for the redbirds and other older car classes. :)
R142s, R142As and R143s use essentially the same Tread Brake Units with one TBU per wheel and the brake shoe covering only the tread (flat part) of the wheel. Dynamic braking in these trainsets is not covering its part despite the 40 MPH limit and many shoes don't make it to the next inspection. Sure a bad 142 car is better than a Redbird...8 versus 16 shoes to change out...but it takes only one stubborn brake shoe key on an 142 to ruin your day and that is ma subject of another thread. CI Peter
thats kawaski for you.even through they made a hell of a product in the R142A.and R143.they have correct the brake sound.the sound is standard for the kawaski company.the R110A made the same sound at some point.
R142/R143MAN
BCO all of the cars Zman. The problem will go away :-)
The sound is when the brake pads kick in. Until then, I think it's regenetive braking. Only some trains with some T/Os it does that. It's loud but the stop isn't hard at all. Perhaps they're worn out during training with some T/Os.
What are you talking about, the 143s come to a drastic stop sometimes, alot harder than the older equipment on the line....
Gives you a headache after bout 10 minutes of being on the train. But i figure it has to do with the T/O and how much pressure they are putting to stop the train. Seems either harder to stop them or just reacting the way they would with the older equipment thinking it reacts the same way....
TA wanted 'new tech' with just one TBU per wheel to save money and time in inspection. Wabco has gone through three TBUs and two brake shoe compositions. I know R142 software has been revised many times to address the situation.....the ACMO didn't move up to 239th for better pizza....but to make a presence known to the vendors.
Just took my first ride on an R143 (8161-8168) yesterday afternoon. The brakes are not the only thing that makes these units almost indistinguishable from their IRT cousins. The ride is still jittery and noisy as h***. Yet I feel they were somewhat better built than the R142As for some reason (I don't have that image of them being as hapazardly bulit as the R142As).
It's a surprise to me that the way the brakes go on the Kawasakis they were not sidelined in the time frame and quantity like the R142s. IMHO, if there is another order for new cars for the rest of the BMT-IND, the MTA should open up the bidding process even more. There are other North American carmakers out there other than Bombardier and Kawasaki.
On the news on Tuesday was a short item about the possibility of turnstiles being installed on the Red Line subway. The reason given was to free up police officers from fare checking to "return them to the streets." It was mentioned that the compliance rate with POP fare control (and $250.00 fines) was 95%. That means one person in every 20 is a fare beater. This does not match my own observations of fare checks, which were that there was a much lower rate of persons without valid fares, more like one in 70 rather than one in 20.
Of course if the officers who were in the subway were returned to the streets, what happens to security in the subway? Under the present system, there are no full time station agents at the red line stations. If turnstiles are installed they will have to have someone there to watch them and allow handicapped people who cannot use a standard turnstile enter. This could not be implemented on the Blue Line because so many of the stations are located at street level with such narrow entry ways that turnstiles would not fit, and could be easily circumvented.
Of course putting in turnstiles is not all that will have to be done. L.A.'s monthly passes are simple sight passes without the coding used with MetroCards, so if they go to turnstiles they will have to upgrade the passes to be machine readable or have an employee on hand to look at the passes.
I personally believe the purpose of turnstiles is to introduce more sophisticated MetroCard like passes and debit cards. Some of the smaller transit agencies already have fare box readers that allow them to issue 31 day passes (rather than monthly passes), debit cards and machine readable transfers. LAMTA is behind the curve in developing these products.
Tom
"I personally believe the purpose of turnstiles is to introduce more sophisticated MetroCard like passes and debit cards. Some of the smaller transit agencies already have fare box readers that allow them to issue 31 day passes (rather than monthly passes), debit cards and machine readable transfers. LAMTA is behind the curve in developing these products."
I agree, and I think LAMTA is waking up to that realization. But that's a good thing.
Is it possible that the crime rate aboard Red Line is so low that the Sheriff's Department has concluded it wants to redeploy its deputies elsewhere?
>>> Is it possible that the crime rate aboard Red Line is so low that the Sheriff's Department has concluded it wants to redeploy its deputies elsewhere? <<<
I believe Red Line security and fare checking is done by the LAPD, since it is totally within the city limits. Blue and Green Line are done by the L.A. Sheriff. The LAPD is way under strength, about 1,000 officers short in a 9,000 member department. This is because of low morale, which has made other law enforcement agencies seem more attractive to both active LAPD officers and new recruits. With such a shortage I am sure that the LAPD leadership (we now have an interim chief, while looking for a new one, after refusing to give the former chief a second five year contract) and the city council which is not supportive of rapid transit, put a low priority on fare checking, and couldn't care less about the extra expense to LAMTA of having turnstiles.
I think they are making a mistake because the fare checking, like citations for minor traffic violations lets police officers run warrant checks on those they come into contact with who are minor law breakers, and thus may find people wanted for other crimes.
In my previous post I suggested this idea might be a way for LAMTA to introduce MetroCard like passes, but on second thought, I believe the idea originates as a trial balloon from politicians outside the LAMTA and is not something the LAMTA wants to do.
Tom
I think they are making a mistake because the fare checking, like citations for minor traffic violations lets police officers run warrant checks on those they come into contact with who are minor law breakers, and thus may find people wanted for other crimes.
That certainly was the case in New York. A significant percentage of the people stopped for turnstile-jumping were wanted for other, more serious offenses, or were carrying weapons.
If the Red Line is perceived to be unimportant, politically, LAMTA may want to take matters into its own hands (eg hiring and certifying its own officers to patrol the rail transit system).
RTD, prior to its reorganization, had its own Transit Police.
what in the hell would you do with 7th & metro ???
nobody seems to ahve an answer to that !!!
Maybe nothing should be done.
here is just one of 4 station entrancres to the red line subway 2
nowere @ ( we coined this phraise here on da' west coast )
now remember this is one of 4 to 5 just at this main trnasfer
station that would have to be totally rebuilt ....!! ...???
i would like to show you some of the mess at the union station whew!!
It may not be worth rebuilding.
Maybe transit police agents should be reintroduced and they should check for tickets and provide a visible law enforcement presence - and LAPD can let that duty go.
yes as long as they are not some 2 bit redneck types or some gestapo
types etc..Going on ""fishing expeditions"" looking to unleash thier
savage brutality on !! of cource enforce the law etc...
Sir, While I DO NOT favor adding turnstiles or any type of "barrier fare control" I am sure that the complexity of the 7th St transfer station pales in comparison to Union Square, Herald Square or Times Square stations. So it is POSSIBLE--that's what architects are for--just stupid. (Which IMHO is not enough to stop LA MTA)
the point is why then only the red line ?? why not all lines??
metrolink included ?? .............see my point sir ??
>>> Maybe transit police agents should be reintroduced and they should check for tickets and provide a visible law enforcement presence <<<
Not really a good idea. New York gave up its separate transit police force because of the inefficiency of having parallel police forces on transit and the rest of the city. Los Angeles has 400 square miles within the city limits and LAMTA buses go into neighboring areas also. When there were separate forces, a bus driver who sees a passenger carrying a gun, or an unruly passenger had to wait up to 40 minutes for a response by transit police. Once local police took over, the problem was dispatched to a 911 operator for the nearest police unit to respond.
The LAMTA could not have its own force just for the Red Line. It is only 17 miles long, and needs only two dedicated officers at a time in non rush hours, so the force would be so small that planning for training, vacations, illnesses etc. would be extremely inefficient, and response to disturbances would be dependant upon which station they were in at the time the call came. The LAPD now has the patrol of the Red Line in their budget. If that money were transferred to the LAMTA, it would be only natural for the supervisors in LAPD not to want their men responding to subway calls. They would respond in serious emergencies under a mutual aid pact, but a call for a drunk on a platform would be ignored to let the transit cops handle it.
Tom
I tend to agree with you; however you appear to discount the possibility that LAPD could assign a very low priority to drunk calls anyway, simply by redeploying officers.
Even if LAPD keeps Red Line responsibility, it could assign Red Line protection duty to a patrol car 4 miles away. If LAMTA objects, LAPD could say, "If you don't like that, hire your own."
>>> if LAPD keeps Red Line responsibility, it could assign Red Line protection duty to a patrol car 4 miles away. If LAMTA objects, LAPD could say, "If you don't like that, hire your own." <<<
But it wouldn't be LAMTA objecting, it would be citizens and their elected representatives. Former chief Parks lost his job in part because he did not believe he had the manpower to continue "community policing" in the low crime affluent areas to concentrate manpower in the high crime poor areas. When he ended the lead officer system, which provided a liaison with the communities, and refused to reinstate it when the affluent complained, the politically powerful went after his job.
Tom
You bring up an excellent point. And your reasoning would be quite valid in New York, Chicago, San Francisco and other places where the transit system does matter.
Does LAMTA ridership have enough clout?
>>> Does LAMTA ridership have enough clout? <<<
It is not just the ridership. Headlines of crime in the subways or on the buses would bring a severe public reaction from all, particularly if it was perceived that the police were not taking the crime seriously. Even those who do not use the transit system worry about the reputation of the city with tourists and business visitors.
Tom
his job was ended by a nut myor here who will be remembered for his
""f"" up big time !! the litle son named hann........what a nut!!
still do not see how this turnstille idea would work at 7th & metro..
>>> what in the hell would you do with 7th & metro ??? <<<
That would not be difficult. There is plenty of floor space on the Blue Line level, so fences could be erected with turnstiles leading to the stairs and elevators to the Red Line. Physically it would not be a problem, but there would have to be supervision to allow handicapped entrance. It would not be a good idea.
Tom
DUMB, and regressive. POP is indeed workng well whether in LA, SF, Sacto, SJ, PDX etc. And indeed the 5% figure does not agree with my own experiences. Hiring station agents and buying all the hardware for barrier fare control is IMHO a huge waste. Having SOME personnel in each station--random fare checkers, agents aiding riders having trouble with balky fare machines is useful. Armed LAPD a waste.
>>> Armed LAPD a waste. <<<
With a POP system you need sworn law enforcement personnel to enforce the fare policy. They need to be able to arrest anyone without proof of fare payment, and need the immunities from false arrest and the right to use force given to peace officers. Rent a cops do not have the training or authority to properly do the job. Unfortunately it is not a job most officers want; kind of like watching a school crossing to see if any motorists speed or fail to properly stop for a crossing guard.
Here in California the training to become a peace officer is so stringent that former LAPD police chief Willie Williams (from Philadelphia) was never able to pass the test and had to apply for a civilian CCW permit in order to carry a gun on the job.
Tom
here in Northern CA, San Jose and SF use fare checkers who are NOT armed, but like unto parking ticket officers they are legally able to writes summonses. AFAIK VTA is not planning to change to peace officers. SF DID use SFPD officers when the system was introduced, but has since gire specific 'fare checkers' (at much lower salaries I hope). Indeed checking on MUNI is quite random, butMUNI seems content with the present system.
>>> here in Northern CA, San Jose and SF use fare checkers who are NOT armed, but like unto parking ticket officers they are legally able to writes summonses. <<<
I suppose that is what will eventually happen here too. The cops do not like the work, since they consider it on a par with writing parking tickets. Presently the policy is to take into custody anyone who does not have proof of fare payment and also does not have identification sufficient to allow the officers to believe writing a summons will suffice to bring him to court. That is similar to what happens with a traffic stop if the driver has no ID. Also they do a warrant check on fare beaters and take into custody anyone with an outstanding warrant.
I doubt that unarmed fare checkers would be able to make arrests in those situations.
>>> Indeed checking on MUNI is quite random, butMUNI seems content with the present system <<<
I wonder if the MUNI is getting such a big subsidy that they don't care about fares. They have such a liberal transfer policy, and I have never even seen any driver check the expiration time on a transfer. Their on board fare checking is so random that I have never seen it on an LRV.
Tom
where did this SHORT article appear ???...........lol ...!!
did they say how they were going to install turnstiles in the main
7th /7 metro station or the union station ??????
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???????????????? 4 to 5 stairways there to the
red line subway 2 nowhere .....picture below ....
do you have a LINK to this anywhere ?? what NUT came up with dis'
dumb assed idea folks ?? there are no nys style transcards here !!!
LOL !!!!!!!!!
where did this SHORT article appear ???...........lol ...!!
did they say how they were going to install turnstiles in the main
7th /7 metro station or the union station ??????
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???????????????? 4 to 5 stairways there to the
red line subway 2 nowhere .....picture below ....
do you have a LINK to this anywhere ?? what NUT came up with dis'
dumb assed idea folks ?? there are no nyC style transcards here !!!
LOL !!!!!!!!!
The report was in the LA TIMES and said the idea was being tossed around at MTA HQ. As to logistics, just because it will inconvenience riders, slow down usage and generally degrade the system is no impediment to stupid bureaucrats.
I do appreciate the information on dat' however it will prove to be
a big problem at the 7th & Metro Station with at least 4 + lower
transfer from the upper Long Beach Blue Line end of the line
upstairs which is impossible to install fare gates etc.....
What a looney idea that has no possibility to work at all !! !
next time you are in los angeles check out & 7 Th & Metro with your
own eyes & you can see why this cannot be done !!!
What's the deal with the R shuttle to 95th street. Are those jobs from CI, or Jamaica? It seems like a helluva long deadhead to get there. Howzabout the equipment...does the OPTO set run from CI or Jamaica, or does it sit on F3-4 at 95th?
Thanks
For Some odd reason, while I do not know exactly, but it seems to make sense to send trains from 36 Street yard to run the R shuttle, way less dead head then from Coney Island, and defintly from Jamaica.
More like they take a train cut it in station and there are your two shuttles.
Most of the Put ins on the south end of the line come from layup and mainline tracks not 36st yard
The R shuttle crews report for duty at 95th Street. There isn't any special plan for shuttle service, all they do is take a regular 8 car R train and cut it in half. Those two 4 car sets make up shuttle service for the night. When shuttle service ends, they're added back up again.
So trains are still occaisionally "cut" on the road. It's not prohibited, but I can't think of any other situation where that happens -so I guess its unusual...
Cool.
It also happens on the midnight W at Stillwell, where 2 eight car trains are cut for four OPTO shuttles.
The road crews do the cut, right?
Now there you got me. I don't work PMs or Midnights, so I'm not sure. I do know that on Sunday mornings, the Road T/O bringing in the second set of four cars makes the add with a switchman on the first set of four (and I only know this because the train they put together is the one I take out on my first trip).
In the NEw Capital Plan it discusses the the issue of subway storage, and that it is at at a chronic state as read here:
"NYC Transit’s B division faces chronic capacity issues related to car maintenance and storage. Currently, B division demand for subway car storage exceeds secure yard capacity. Also, only six maintenance shops support the B division’s 3,233 cars, which are distributed unevenly among them. For example, the Jamaica shop has more than 1,000 cars. In addition, NYC Transit’s lack of adequate work train storage and staging facilities in Queens and within close proximity of Manhattan often cause delays to scheduled service. The opening of the Queens Boulevard Line Connector and resumption of full service over the Manhattan Bridge will significantly increase the agency’s dependence on mainline storage of trains and strain the capacity of the Jamaica and Coney Island maintenance shops. NYC Transit hopes to address these issues through a phased development of a new yard. Phase 1 is budgeted at $105 million, and the remainder of the development will occur after 2004." (Metropolitan Transit Authority"
It seems that if a New Subway Yard is Built, it will be built near the Sunnydale Train Facility. It sounds like it will be a massive yard too and probably the most advanced train yard in the system. It looks like it's main purpose it to remove congestion off the Jamaica Yard and C.I yard and add capacity for the New 600+ cars to come to the NYC subway system with in the next 10 years.
The plan for the past 15 years has always been to build a large storage facility on the north side of Sunnyside yard. Some of the "wish-list" features could be:
[ ] 70+ storage tracks for more than 1,000 cars
[ ] A service facility for work equipment (none currently in Queens
[ ] A loop for the #7 line to turn cars (instead of the Coney island loop).
To which lines would it connect? The 7 seems obvious, but how would it connect to the IND?
Has to connect to Division B since it's to be a Division B Yard.
If I understand the plans correctly it will come into Sunnyside in the same structure (but not the same tracks) as the LIRR East Side Access line, so I suppose the main access would be via the 63rd St. tunnel. But I'm only guessing.
IIRC, turnouts along the 63rd. St. connector have been built in anticipation of this facility being constructed.
Are there any track maps or any other things that describe this yard, capacity, etc?
The only active 'new build' contract I found on the MTA site is CQ028, to construct a tunnel from Northern Blvd to 'an existing yard' (it mentions Amtrak and NY&A, so Sunnyside is assumed). The project includes underpinning existing NYCT structures. It's listed under the East Side Access code. http://www.mta.info/mta/eye-esa.htm#CQ028
-Hank
The yard they referred to is indeed Sunnyside Yard. Here's something to look for if you ever ride a Penn Station bound LIRR train....on the northside of the ROW, just east of the 39th Street overpass, there are 2 markers (signs) posted, one saying "East Side Access Tunnel A" and another one saying "East Side Access Tunnel B". Look for them whenever you next ride a Penn Station bound train, right on the northside (on Penn bound trains it's the trains onside, or engineer cab side) of the right of way. It doesn't have anything to do with a new yard, it's where the ground breaking for the tunnel connection to the lower level 63rd Street tunnels will be and where the tunnel ROW will go.
Well they are construction the loop currently at Corona Yard now, so thats 1 thing down. The other 2 seem to be ready to begin shortly within 2 years.
Corona Yard has no maintenance facilities at all?
Would that include a garbage facility? That would save tons of overtime on the pickups.
How much does CI yard hold?
I agree, the Sunnyside facility would be great. In fact, the 63rd street tunnel, has bellmouths just before joining up with the Queens Blvd line, that could lead to the Sunnyside yard.
true but those bellmouths your talking about was built for the future 2nd Ave subway.
not at the Queens end.
but just before Lexington Av-63rd St yes
pass by the Hillside facility stop and they have been seen. the only ones i have noticed were #7000-#7001. I saw at least 6 more. I knmow they are not in service but cant wait until they are. they look really sharp.
Where exactly is this? Which route and side of train?
You pass by the HMF, which is on "the Main Line" [Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma Branches] just after the Babylon line diverges from the rest of the tracks over it's bridge.
Do you mean just east of Hicksville?
Just E/O Jamaica.
No, as Sarge just said e/o Jamaica. You are thinking of the split at Divide Tower where the main line diverges between the Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma Branches.
Nope....just east of Jamaica.....you're thinking of the Port Jeff/Ronkonkoma split, and that is east of Hicksville.
OK, I went out that way today, saw Hillside, but must have missed the M-7's because I didn't see them.
Did you ride during the rush hour? Better chance to see 'em with all the M-1s and 3s in service and out of the way.
they wont be in serice for A couple months.you might see them in the fall.
R142/R143MAN
Are you kidding?? The M-7 looks crappy. Looks like nothing more than an 85' subway car. Would be somewhat improved if the get rid of the pantograph gates. Makes it look too subway-like.
What hell you been drinking?? Those M-7's look great and dosen't look nothing like the other LIRR fleet.
those Sh*ts are of the meat rack.its about time for a change
And where yah Railfan Window?
Get used to the pantograph gates. They are there for ADA complaince: nobody wants to see a blind person fall in between the cars when attempting to board.
Are you kidding?? The M-7 looks crappy. Looks like nothing more than an 85' subway car. Would be somewhat improved if they get rid of the pantograph gates. Makes it look too subway-like.
How often do brake pads need to be replaced on subway trains? (And railroads if anyone knows)
Do trains need a variety of fluids to keep it running? (i.e. motor oil, coolant...)
How frequent are car inspections?
Can of Worms!!! Inspections are every two months or 10K miles or so.
Brake SHOES are checked during every inspection and good shoes which have a thin end are even replaced on Redbirds as there is a question of if and when the next SM will come. Couplings, brake adjusters and tripcock valves are greased, pneumatic valves are cleaned and lubricated, the air compressor is checked for lubrication oil level and has the air filter replaced, the battery electrolyte levels are checked and the propulsion motor gearboxes are checked for metallic debris and fluid level. Electrical contacts and relays are inspected and tested, motor and braking controls are inspected and tested...and all DC motors (AC compressor, air compressor, two blower motors) have their brushes and commutators inspected.
A major number of brakeshoes replaced means a failure of dynamic braking or a scummy schlub who let things go on the last inspection.
WE are CED, the Heart of TA, WE MAKE TRAINS GO! CI Peter
Doobie doobie doo.
Woo-hoo-you!
I've been seeing alot of posts by an "express" indivudual. They seem like they've been posted for the sake of being posted. The indivudual hangs around on the board quite often. Now this dude seems to be too. Uhhh... multiple personalities?
Which thread?
Lay off the crack pipe.
Probably not but perhaps you should be.
yer not the first person to say that
I've been meaning to ask this somewhat stupid question for awhile. While riding the A line in Brooklyn, there are signs on the express track pillars that say LU on them. What does that mean?
They were ex-London Underground pillars that got shipped during WWII for rehabiliataion of the A line. That's why they still have LU markings on them
Are you drunk or something?
- Lyle Goldman
no
The LU doesn't have pillars they are YERKES TUBES. Piffle!
wayne
On the District Line too?
LU = Lay-up.
You'll see a blue sign with white letters that may say "LU 4". This is where lay-up #4 would stop and park for the evening/weekend. Further down will be signs that say LU 1,2,3 or farther back 5,6,7.....
These lay-up points are only used for certain cold weather (LOL) plans which require trains to be lay-ed up under cover (aka snowbirds). Some LU signs have been replaced by yellow signs with black lettering that may say "Snowbird lay-up #4" (3 track on the F line between 7th Av & Church Av is one of these areas where the signs have been replaced).
I wonder why I've only seen them on the A express tracks in Brooklyn. I've seen trains get laid up on the Broadway express tracks (when the Manny B H tracks were closed), and on Queens Blvd. But the only place I saw the LU signs was on the Fulton express. Well thanks for the explanation!
Just the thought of snow is so welcome in today's blazin heat. Hit near 100 here in the hotlands of LI again.
I remember seeing trains laid up on the Broadway express tracks on certain weekends in the late 60s. Must have been a cold weather plan. We'd transfer from the Canarsie at Union Square to the Broadway line, and I'd look down the n/b express track and see R-1/9s sound asleep signed up for EE service. Then an N would pull in on the local track and make local stops. It was so depressing. Get this: I also remember seeing trains laid up only on the n/b express track while the s/b express track was clear and in use by N trains. That made me really mad.
I wonder what they do in events of very heavy rain. If many tunnels are flooded, I guess yards are the best place to lay-up, but some yards (like Coney Island) are low-lying and could flood in a bad storm.
Qtrain, do U really railfan 24-7 like some people on this board suggest? How do you finance yourself?
It's not a scarcastic Q. If I can do the same, I might do it...
AEM7
Qtrain, do U really railfan 24-7 like some people on this board suggest? How do you finance yourself?
Sure he does. And all those of us who actually work for a living finance him - it's called welfare.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I believe its really called SSI. Bottom line is that we still pay for his rail-fanning. I really don't mind that, however. I'm happier knowing that John can rail-fan as often as he wants on my money. If he didn't get that money, the government might actually waste it on some poor Appelachian family who need food or medicine.
... or the 2nd ave el.
Although, I didnt think you can survive AND railfan on just the welfare money. Surely railfanning is quite expensive, with all his digital equipment and everything. Maybe I should go on welfare. Or maybe I should shoot a few Canadians and get thrown in jail or deported.
Surely railfanning is quite expensive, with all his digital equipment and everything.
I don't think he has digital equipment and everything.
Railfanning is very cheap, you don't have to take photographs in order to be a railfan, and the subway and Long Island Bus are dirt cheap ($1.50 a ride, $4 for the whole day).
If I railfanned 24/7, how would I sleep, how would I eat, shower,etc!!!
When you sleep, you dream of subway trains... and how to route them, When you shower you contemplate subway trains, and what you would doo if the yards or tunnels flood. When you..... Aw Skip it!
: )
Logical Unit?
Load Utility?
Someone earlier pointed out the correct meaning, LU stands for Lay-Up.
That's old Honeywell speak!
Haven't heard that since S&S days (1982-84)
wayne
Wayne,
I use big iron every day, SNA 3270. What is your physical address? LU Number??
Opps, I can't it the mainframe any more, we were ordered to refer to it as the Enterprise Server >G<.
Our DBA goes around with a button "VM, The Original LAN".
That's what it was, the TDS system running under Honeywell GCOS 3.x. What a pig! No tape drives, just 7 magnum disk drives (250MB, EACH pack weighing in at a portly 28 lbs), two printers, console, and yes, (remember this?) the CARD READER and PUNCH! We had terminals all over the office and in the shop too.
S&S was a few blocks off the Bedford Avenue station on the "L" line. (just to keep it on topic).
wayne
Just read on Amtrak website, they have just let a contract to build 5 demonstration induction-driven locos from ASEA which will be dubbed AEM-10. These locos will run on freight railroads without pantographs but they will get their power from inductor loops that are installed ever 60-80 miles along the ROW. They will develope 10,000hp. The electromagentic radiation around the inductor loops are reportedly a problem but at the Transportation Technology Center Inc in Pubelo Colorado they are working on it and they have a prototype which only causes cancer in Pandas.
That would be soo coool to see an AEM-10 on the Lake Shre Ltd, although the AEM10 will be phased in starting with the Capitol Ltd, then the Santa Fe Ltd.
AEM7
"be soo coool to see an AEM-10 on the Lake Shre Ltd, "
This is correct they are going to convert all of those jerkwater towns into jerkinductance towns.
Hey! I gotta BRIDGE for sale, left over from the construction of the Mongolia Subway.
Yes, but how fast would they be able to go? A 10,000-horsepower locomotive. I like the sound of that!
In the 1830s, Cyrus P. Smith proposed unifying New York and Brooklyn (EVIL, EVIL MAN) not only politically, but geographically! He proposed filling in the East River.
I'm not as think as you high I am?
How will he fill up the E. River?
It would take lots and lots of mob hits.
Due to increased demand, the mafia is now hiring. Inquire within.
Well I was just commenting because the saying sounded weird. I thought it usually went "I'm not as high as you think I am" but I guess not this time.
Ever seen those blurry shirts that say "I'm not as think as you drunk I am?"
How will he fill it up?
Somehow I doubt he will. He made his proposal about 170 years ago. Do you think he's still around to carry it out?
Most of what is now Boston was once water.
Yes. There are pumps that have to keep pumping to prevent certain building from falling sideways. There are $500,000 condos sitting on 1890s wooden stumps drilled into the mud which, should the stumps rot away... would fall over... there's a lot of structural problems in the Back Bay. There's also a certain university which would crumble should an earthquake ever occur. Of course, there are no fault lines there, so we should be okay for a couple centuries.
Of course, modern technology can deal with all that... but isn't it cheaper just to build outwards?
AEM7
Of course, there are no fault lines there, so we should be okay for a couple centuries.
The problem with 1000-year earthquakes is that nobody knows when 1000 years after the last earthquake is. This is especially a problem in the new world.
A 1000 earthquake, flood, etc. just means there is a 1/1000 chance of it happening in any year. Natural events don't keep track of time. Statisticans and geologists can figure out how otfen a partucular sized event will happen without knowing when the last one occured.
Earthquakes do keep track of time. The tension along the fault builds up over time. The longer the time between earthquakes, the stronger it will be. Some faults build up pressure faster than others.
He proposed filling in the East River.
What!?! Isn't that what Staten Island's for?
>>>I'm not as think as you high I am!
If you said those words in that orderr, I would think u MUST be high! ROFLMAO J/k...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Coolie"
I know I have to be able to pick a job in order to transfer from the A division to the B divsion. So, I was wondering if any of you new T/O's who came in "off the street" like I did, have been able to pick a job in the B division yet? Here in the A division, only a handful have been able to pick a job thus far, and they were all hired about one year before I was.
I like the A division, but my feeling is that when I have to pick a job, it's going to be a terrible job, so I'd rather have one that's closer to home. Plus, I figure a lousy job in the B division is still better than 2 trips on the 2, or 3 trips on the 4 (including a local trip to New Lots). One night, I had three trips on the 4 line, and on my last trip, I went to New Lots. That was a rough day.
It's too early to answer your question yet Luch. The B division pick is in progress now and they're only up to about file # 1900.
One of my classmates pick a Saturday job on the No.4 Line with 2 trips to Utica and the last to New Lots last pick. That not a good way to do 10HRS.
Most Train crews on the A Div work on the No.1/2 Lines for the first pick and more then likely late PM's.
You're right, that's a rough way to work 10hrs. His paycheck will be fat, but it's still a very long day.
No no off the street people will pick this pick unless there are MANY more retirements. In fact a few people that picked last pick may lose their spots if no one retires. Even with all the added jobs there were more than enough A to B transfers to move people back.
This pick I moved up two days over the last pick. I pick on the 6th Friday last pick at about 12:00pm. This pick I pick on the 6th Thursday at 9:30am. I know this only looks like 1 day, but you have to figure that there was no pick on July 4th, so that make one less day to pick pushing everyone one day back. My first pick job for the B division was last pick, if you call it a pick. I ended up in the Work Train the hole pick. The only thing I pick was one of two slots left on the Extra List(Every thing in W/T is E-List). The day off were the same that it. I Hated every last day out there. Not knowing what your working untill 12:00noon for that day. 21:59 reports most night. It Sucked big time.
Robert
Weren't there 2 holidays last pick?
We actually count jobs and the call sheets so unless people back out of their transfers or retire our numbers are fairly good.
You did not have to pick work trains. Now you may have gotten stuck with G OPTO but w/t XL jobs for the most part were not the last picked. They should be in the summer (I assume the Jr. guy is on the moron end)!
21:59? Did not like the early clears? The Max night differential?
DONT DO IT B DIVISION IS MISREABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!I came to the B last pick and I hate it.There Seems to be A GOOD OLD BOY attitude over in the b. Equippment is slightly Better But supervision is on crack, Beeen in the B 2 months now and have been verbably reinstructed twice.Best part They want to hear the clicks ,DONT WRAP IT LOL ,Dont come into the staion wrapped HAHAHAHA.
The supervision is very uneven. Last week on the E where I operate regularly I had 7 TSS's ride me and instruction from a deputy and a Supt. On the L where this was my second L job ever no one rode me or at least was in my car.
The N is cool on PM's in fact with 3 exceptions the Brooklyn TSS's are cool and helpful. In Train Dude land all but one TD and TSS are excellent but those two are equally wretched as the others are good.
As for the North there is a method to their madnees.
I would like to operate the whole system, but because of those 3 trip 4 (and 6) jobs and 2 trip 1 and 2, I'll pass on the A div. I used to complain when I got the 2 trip A or F all the time. Now it's the 6 trip G job left by someone who has gone off into the union. At least all of these B. Div. North and Queens jobs are fairly close. The A did. is all far away. (except for Livonia, and even that would not be the easiest to reach).
Last pick, I missed it by one day. It seems more jobs will be added by the new switching jobs at Kings Hwy F. But some in the yards have been cut or restricted. You're way below me, and I may or may not make it, so you definitely won't be able to pick over here this time.
3 trips on the 6 line is a piece of cake. It goes by real fast. 3 trips on the 4 line is a different story. Especially if one of those trips is to New Lots.
2 trips on the 2 is not my favorite. When the 1 goes back to normal, I can see myself liking it.
Just keep my off the 7 line. Those redbirds are terrible.
So Eric, how would you rate B division management? I know you don't have anything to compare it to, since you've yet to work the A division, but are they really that bad over there?
I loved the No.1 Line when it was 3 trips to the Ferry. It goes faster then the No.6. As far as B Div management we have them now on the A Div. Just look at the No.1,2 Lines. The Line Supt on the No.1 just switched over from J/M/Z lines and No.2 Line Supt came from the A Line. Also the new District Gen. Supt of Bway Dist.1 came over from Queens District 5.
Not to mention some of the feared B division TSS's who have made their way to the A division.
Here's an excellent example. I won't mention names, but a well-known TSS on the _ line told a C/R to confront a man for bringing a pit bull on a train, without a leash no less. Now, you have to figure that anyone who would do something like this, is confrontational and should be dealt with by the police.
But the TSS felt otherwise. He asked the C/R such questions as, "How did he get on your train with a pitbull with no leash"?, and "Don't you know you're supposed to confront people who bring animals on the train"?
When the C/R got to (terminal), he made supervision aware of the problem, just in case the TSS ever decided to charge the C/R.
There is also a TSS on the _ line who loves to hide in stations, and clock trains with his speed gun. In this case, it's my belief that the Line Superintendent forces the TSS to do so.
That's why I consider myself lucky to be on the extra list. I'm not around any one TSS for any length of time, which allows me to fly, or in this case, operate under the radar screen.
Here's a dumb question. If that pit bull as on car nine, would that TSS expect me to key out, lock up the cab and walk back there to confront the customer while I screw up the entire railroad doing so? I'm just wondering what kind of pea-sized brains are at play here.
It'd be one thing to radio for a cop, I'd be rather miffed (as would the "customers") if I had to gum up the railroad to go fight a pit bull. Or maybe it's just me. :)
"feared B division TSS's"
Feared TSS's??????? No one but God earns my fear. As long as you do what you are supposed to do, you need not worry about no TSS or anyone. I do the job the way it's supposed to be done, all while putting my all into getting the most enjoyment out of my career.
A TSS is gonna be a TSS, if the guy is good he's good, if the guy is a jerk, he's gonna be a jerk. There is nothing much you can do about it, just do what you're supposed to do the right way and they'll stay clear of you.
I been think about going to the B Div but I now decided I'm staying in the A Div. I have already gotten a taste of B Div. and don't like it.
At least two trains of R-143s on the L (8141+ and 8161+). At least two trains of R-32s on the F.
I also had a nice ride on the M Shuttle with a fellow SubTalker. Thanks for the ride!
On June 9; they were held and questioned for four hours and released without charge. They seek compensation. Story in Wednesday's Inquirer.
Since it was the Philly police, i'm surprised they didn't call the SWAT team on them and beat the photographer to death in front of news cameras. Or drop a bomb onto the bridge to try to scare them away :)
didn't the philly PD drop a bomb on some anarchists house in the 80's, causing an entire row of homes to go up in flames?
in the new war on terrorism, owning a camera is a crime - so all of you on this board that own cameras - you certainly better hide them, or maybe even turn them into the local police station, maybe witha statement signing away your civil rights as well.
think it can't happen here? dan quayle was VP for pete's sake! anything is possible!
Yes, that was the Philly PD. Back in 1985, the MOVE group had a house on Osage Avenue near 62nd in West Philly. They were a black power anarchist group, I think. The Philly PD decided to scare them out by dropping a bomb onto the house, where i think 10 or 11 people died, and the fire spread to over 60 homes. It made mayor W. Wilson Goode look really really bad, and was a real disgrace to the city.
From CNN--
"MOVE's neighbors complained that members constantly harassed passersby, that the stench of human and animal feces was overwhelming the neighborhood, and that MOVE members had been seen with weapons.
"Police officers arrived at the MOVE home at 6221 Osage Avenue in West Philadelphia on the morning of May 13, 1985 to serve arrest warrants on four MOVE members, and were met with gunfire, authorities said. Police fired back, touching off a 90-minute gun battle.
"Later that day, police dropped the bomb on the MOVE row house from a state police helicopter. The bomb missed its target -- a fortified bunker on the roof -- and started a fire that burned an entire city block."
Yes, the police and their mayor screwed up mightily with M.O.V.E. and part of that screw-up was that they kept hands off for too long, so that by the time it became a confrontation, it was out of control.
The situation was not nearly so simple as you imply.
Correct, Paul. The MOVE situation was the predecssor to the WACO tragedy...similar situations that -- because earlier action wasn't taken -- things turned drastic in the end (loss of life).
Those who died deserved what they got. If you openly defy law enforcement with deadly weapons then the consequinces are completely of your own doing. I hope that in the future that law enforcement deals quickly and severely with these scum. Once all innoscent people are out of the line of fire the machine guns should open up and eliminate the threat, be it a hi-speed vehicle or a compound full of insane cultists. It'll be a great taxpayer savings in not only officer's time and resources, but also in court and jail fees.
Those who died deserved what they got.
Civilized countries have a justice system with judges and lawyers who decide whether the criminal is to be executed. One mentally deranged police commissioner is not entitled to convice, sentence, and execute on his own.
Watch yourself on today's SEPTA trip: you look more like a potential terrorist than I do.
Civilized countries have a justice system with judges and lawyers who decide whether the criminal is to be executed.
I intended to add "and juries".
Ajustice system with lawyeres and juries and jails is nice, and if the perps want to live long enough to enjoy these benefits, thay can put down their weapons and come out with their hands up.
If law enforcement has to go in after them, then enforcement must take what ever steps are necessary to protect themselves and bystanders. Armed persons shooting must be taken out at once.
NO DON'T BOMB THE NEIGHTBORHOOD, What you be thinking, boy!
Unfortunately, it can go too far. Enforcement professionals need to be very very professional, well trained, and well disciplined. Actions need to be well thought out.
Stopping folk for taking pictures (which *is* where this tread started) is not a well thought out action. Since we live in a free country, and since a photograph of a refinery complex set against a sunset if a very artistic and poignent statement protected by the first amendment, the police have no right to interfere.
We are a public land, and anything that can be seen by the public, standing in a public place is free to be photographed. It does not matter if the person is an artist, a hobbiest, a journalist, or a terrorist: the act of photography is not a terrorist act, nor is it an illegal act. It is instead a protected act. A camera is not going to blow up a refineary... lax security will.
Sure a terrorist *could* use a photograph to discover weakness in a defence perimiter, or a site for the placement of a weapon, but to prohibit all photography on those grounds is like using a bomb to take out a few cockroaches. And just about as effective too.
Elias
i couldn't have said it better....
Totally innocent photography of certain things has been banned in wartime and even after. Photography of the Brooklyn Navy Yard was prohibited for at least a decade after WWII ended.
Then there ought to be published notices and signs in the area warning of same.
HOWEVER... given today's photography (high quality... telephot lenses etc. etc. they are just fooling themselves. There must be thousands of places where one could make high quality clandestine photographs of any target.
They require protection for a target, then go and provide security, but forget about hiding it. *THAT* is NOT security. That is fooling yourself.
Elias
Hire a satellite. It goes for $400 for custom pic that is ordered and exactly what you want.
Totally innocent photography of certain things has been banned in wartime and even after. Photography of the Brooklyn Navy Yard was prohibited for at least a decade after WWII ended.
I was in the Navy.... during the Viet Nam War...
And I took pictures in every Naval Base, on every Ship, and in every port that I went to. There were no restrictions!
Well it *was* different from WWII, the VC did not have spies under every tea leaf such as the Germans or the Japanese did. While alQuadea might have such spies (i'd be surprized if they did not!) such restrictions would not apply to them anyway... Which is to say such restrictions would not stop or be able to stop them.
Security will stop them Paranoia will not. Security *would* have stopped the hijackers regardless of what pictures they may have taken!
Elias
with the military i would get permission etc... & i both understand
& respect thier position on what you can photograph etc...
however what we should all do
& A HUGE NUMEBER OF US DO THIS TOGETHER ANT THE SAME TIME ....
is show up at that location in philly
with our cameras do the all american thing REBEL !! shoot like MAD!!
demand with asign the we all "B" arrested then chill out and go
get some SEPTA transit photos !!! .............yea !!!
Hell lets ROCK THE G.D. BOAT HERE BIG TIME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yooooooooooooooo..............................
A HUGE NUMEBER OF US DO THIS TOGETHER ANT THE SAME TIME .... is show up at that location in philly with our cameras do the all american thing REBEL !! shoot like MAD!!
With all due respect, Salaam, and I do respect both that you have good intentions and are a marvelous photographer, I wouldn't do that. We really need to choose our battles.
While I have your eye (I assume) I'll give you a suggestion I think might be more worth pursuing. Back in the '60s when I was in transit reporting and publishing, it was suggested to me that I should have gotten a Press Pass from the NYPD, which I probably could have gotten with not too much work, given what I did. I never bothered because I had pretty much open access anyway and, in the cases where I really could expect to be challenged (such as in Staten Island) I got my permissions directly from the operating agency.
Maybe someone like you, in planning a trip to a system like New York, should look into getting a Press Pass for the duration. You would have to be willing to clearly identify who you are and your need and your connection to publication. A press pass would not only CYA in normal situations, but would give you photo access in some situations where others would be barred.
Just a thought... :)
Yea thankz ....i do have my los angeles MTA vest and i.d.
guess that will pass for being left alone !!
they did not mess with me too much last time i was in nyc & the
commuter railroads as well, they were nice to me and left me alone
to do my work wich was tiring enough !!!.............lol !
Totally innocent photography of certain things has been banned in wartime and even after. Photography of the Brooklyn Navy Yard was prohibited for at least a decade after WWII ended.
I was in the Navy.... during the Viet Nam War...
Ah-HA! Pulling rank on me, huh? :-)
I was in the Army (ours).... during the Viet Nam War...
And I took pictures in every Naval Base, on every Ship, and in every port that I went to. There were no restrictions!
First, note I said "a decade after WWII." You were probably in the service a good decade after that.
Second, their judgment obviously was that there was no harm, considering everything, in having a service member taking pictures around naval installations.
Well it *was* different from WWII, the VC did not have spies under every tea leaf such as the Germans or the Japanese did. While alQuadea might have such spies (i'd be surprized if they did not!) such restrictions would not apply to them anyway... Which is to say such restrictions would not stop or be able to stop them.
We obviously agree, the current situation is much more analagous to WWII than it is to Vietnam.
How many SubTalkers do you think have any clear memory of a conventional war (Vietnam)? How many do you think have memory of a conventional war (WWII) in which there were enormous home front restrictions? I sure don't remember the latter. Hell, we've got a war going without even a draft. I believe this disconnect colors a lot of the opinions here.
US Governments so called "War" is simply "military activity". Also America has to use up it's wepons somehow. Remember the George Bush senior is on the Board of Directors of the "Carlyle Group" [google it] a major, extremly powerful, investment group that focuses on companies that provide government services, especially defense contractors. For a article about them goto theis site.
So what do you figure? Bush and the Mossad attacked WTC so we would have an excuse to use weapons?
The following is my idea, belive it if you want, but I'am not forcing it on you.
They want some money in return for investing in defense companies. They (Pentagon/CIA/FBI(less likely)) got some radicals who thought that they (Pentagon/CIA/FBI(less likely)) were other radicals just like them ("Would you like to do something patriotic and honorable for your people [Arabs/Palestine]?"). And everything else is history. Also remember that the Taliban didn't allow any major oil drilling in Afghanistan. The Soviets did do some tests there in 1979 or 1977 and proved there was a substantial amount of oil in Afghanistan. The soviets never set up any drills because they had other place with more oil in easier places to drill (Kazakhstan, e.g.) Now with a new "cooperative with the western world" government in place they will start drilling 2-5 years from now for oil.
Then that must mean that it is illegal to look (with your eyes) at buildings. Someone have a hot metal rod? Talk about civil libirites.
It is not the job of police to risk their lives and the lives of others to peacibly disarm gun wielding maniacs. If you disregard commands to disarm yourself and surrender then you are responsible for your own fate. When police are empowered to shoot someone just because that person looks like they MIGHT have pulled a gun, it makes little sence not to alow them to people who are running around pointing and discharging an actual weapon at people.
Those who died deserved what they got.
Civilized countries have a justice system with judges and lawyers who decide whether the criminal is to be executed. One mentally deranged police commissioner is not entitled to convice, sentence, and execute on his own
Perhaps we should not ignore the point that the standoff which ended with the bomb began when police attempted to serve the M.O.V.E. people with warrants so that the situation could be dealt with by "a justice system with judges and lawyers" and they were answered with gunfire.
Please don't distort this to imply that I'm excusing the bomb, but lots not lose sight of the facts and the moral responsibility of the M.O.V.E. people, who were the provocateurs.
Uh, Mr. Jersey Mike: so far as I know the MOVE group never USED their weapons on anyone. Merely owning weapons should not be AUTOMATICALLY a precursor for law enforcement to drop bombs on your home w/o first confirming that you intend to use them for illegal acts...
By your standards alot of folks would be bombed out of their homes by the tens of thousands...glad your not in a position of power...
The Police ARE NOT GOD, They would carry a lot more respect if they were found guilty once in a while. Police are disciplined rather severly within their departments for routine misconduct and accountability is actually quite strict, but in major incidents of unjustifiable use of force most police of all ranks circle the wagons and in many cases the prosecutors are either sympathetic whih the police or are reminded that the police could easily make a prosecutors' life hell by screwing with just a few of that prosecutors' other cases. Courts represent the public, they are not part of the BROTHERHOOD and worse, the media reports the proceedings to the public. A fair number of cops can't tolerate this. If rogue police "Got the Max" in court and it stuck, it would go a long way toward building respect for a job which requires a strong body, a sharp mind, great courage, and PERSONAL INTEGRITY, Those who are lacking, aren't really part of the brotherhood after all. But those who meet the standards are truly NEW YORK'S FINEST.
Where in the post you responded to did I say the police were God?
Hear Hear!
Where in the post you responded to did I say the police were God?
They can't be God.... we got separation of church and state.
Anyway my read was that he wasn't responding to what was said, rather than adding his own thoughts to the mix.
Elias
Well said. A very good example is the current mess with Charles Schawrez and the Abner Louima case. Many of the usual "police can do no wrong" types were crying for this "innocent man". When he gets his re-trial, he will be found innocent! Yet he declined to take the stand this time (I thought he was so eager to prove his innocence?) and Thomas Wiese, the "fellow officer" who was to exonerate him had a change of heart; didn't want to face a perjury rap.
Interesting, oh well he's heading back to the big house!
I won't even get into the mob and the 44 shots into Amado Dialo! But hey, those damn wallets can be dangerous, even if you are four burly police officers with bullet proof vests and the one lone man you are confronting has his hand up! Can't take any chances and only fire a few shoots each, need to empty the magazine.
and how yould you feel if your block was burned to a crisp because of bad police tactics?
there's always a better way.
How do you think I would feel? How do you think I feel about those poor neighbors who lost their homes, their possessions and even their pets (the police told them they didn't have to bother evacuating their pets--it was OK)?
It was a horrifying blunder but, as I said, it had more history to it than was indicated in other posts, so, when we're pointing figures of moral responsibility, lets look at the larger picture. Starting with--why was this wound of M.O.V.E. crazies allowed to fester in the heart of a residential neighborhood--arming themselves, blaring loudspeakers with their polemics all day and into the night, and harassing the hell out of their neighbors?
How come this was left to a local police force? Where was the FBI and ATF, that has managed to interest itself in chasing around loonies in the woods, but didn't seem to see a federal issue in an armed encampment in the middle of a residential neighborhood?
>>> How come this was left to a local police force? Where was the FBI and ATF, that has managed to interest itself in chasing around loonies in the woods, but didn't seem to see a federal issue in an armed encampment in the middle of a residential neighborhood? <<<
Hmm! I do not remember reading anything about the Philadelphia police asking for FBI assistance. And without such a request, what authority would the FBI have to butt into an attempt to serve local warrants? (Of course seeing how well the ATF and FBI did at Waco, it was better that they were not involved). An armed encampment in the middle of a residential neighborhood remains a local police problem. There were two parts of the problem. First not acting sooner based on neighbor's complaints, so that MOVE built up a fortress, and second dropping high explosives without considering the possibility of resulting fires and how they should be extinguished. (I guess no one had seen pictures of London during WWII.) It was clearly not Philadelphia's shining hour.
Tom
"It was clearly not Philadelphia's shining hour."
Sure it was... The whole neighborhood was shining all night long.
: (
When the Feds wants to get involved, they find a way. All they needed was to find that a weapon was purchased in another state, and it's a federal matter.
>>> All they needed was to find that a weapon was purchased in another state, and it's a federal matter <<<
And when would they have done that? After the siege was under way? Another poster has said the FBI unofficially provided the explosives that were used. It seems they had already screwed up enough without being officially involved. There is nothing magic about the FBI. They are good at finding draft dodgers, but they have been screwing up barricade situations since the Little Bohemia raid in 1934.
Tom
They [the FBI] are good at finding draft dodgers
Actually, they weren't. A case had to be pretty notorious for the FBI to even bother. Even people who refused induction (not actually dodgers, but obvious resisters) were often sent home and not followed up on, in the middle of Viet Nam.
But my point was that the Federal Government as well as other law enforcement can be very selective in what they choose to pursue and what they don't. ATF expended a lot of effort pursuing white-supremicist loony Randy Weaver in the Idaho backwoods, eventually killing his son and his wife while she was holding their baby, but somehow couldn't interest itself in an armed encampment in the midst of a crowded urban neighborhood.
The people in the neighborhood were begging for intervention for months before they could even get a warrant against those people, which led to the shootout and bombing. It was left to the Philadelphia Police to finally pursue and screw up.
Since you don't seem to feel that the Federal Government should have had a role and that the Philly Cops were incompetent, what do you propose should have been done. Leave M.O.V.E. alone and tell the neighbors to just such it up or move out (no pun intended)?
>>> what do you propose should have been done. Leave M.O.V.E. alone and tell the neighbors to just such it up or move out (no pun intended)? <<<
No, if the situation was too tough for the police, the National Guard should have been activated. Military people understand high explosives, and their limitations.
Tom
How come such faith in the National Guard? Remember Kent State?
>>> How come such faith in the National Guard? Remember Kent State? <<<
Well the National Guard was certainly efficient in putting down that dangerous insurrection in Ohio. The National Guard is the military force available to the governor of a state. If it is a political old boys club rather than an efficient military organization, the state is really in tough shape. In California, the National Guard has been called up twice in the past 40 years to augment the LAPD when they allowed police problems to get out of hand. The Guard was able to handle the situation in both cases. The FBI could not have done better.
Tom
All of this avoids the issue of why the situation was allowed to deteriorate to that point. Even without the "bomb," (which wasn't expected to do what it did--but, hey, that's what bombs do) there was an armed standoff and gun battle in the middle of an urban neighborhood. Maybe if someone paid attention when the neighborhood started complaining, instead of when the situation became intolerable, we wouldn't be arguing Phiily Kops vs. National Guard vs. FBI.
Ah. Perhaps I can interject here. Paul, I believe part of the answer might lie in the ethnic makeup of the neighborhood where MOVE was situated. I'm sure had the area been middle-class and less African American, perhaps the state would have 'moved' (sorry about the pun) to do something prior to an armed conflict.
History shows us that poor, black and/or Hispanic neighborhoods are not given much attention unless there is some kind of civil unrest evident. Then they get noticed...
>>> History shows us that poor, black and/or Hispanic neighborhoods are not given much attention unless there is some kind of civil unrest evident. <<<
Fortunately that is pretty much history now that big cities regularly have minority mayors and police chiefs. The days of the NHI codes are pretty much over. (OK, Cincinnati is an exception).
Tom
How come such faith in the National Guard? Remember Kent State?
The National Guardsmen in Penn Station seem to be experts when it comes to flirting with young women ...
threw it from a copter !! saw the pbs video !!
can we talk about the philly rail transit ?
threw it from a copter !! saw the pbs video !!
can we talk about the philly rail transit ?
It was an illegal explosive not available to local police departments. It was obtained privately from a source in the FBI. Fortunately it wasn't strong enough to disturb the Market Street El structure three blocks to the north.
Tovex ® T.M. of E.I. DuPont De Nemours, Co. Inc. (good stuff)
2 the last 2 posts ..........""wrong is right"".........
Far be it from me to be the Devil's Advocate but I do it so well:
Arresting the men may have been a little overboard but you can't tell me you don't understand the police being more than a little suspicious. An oil refinery is an unusual thing to take photos of. People got stopped for taking subway photos well before domestic terrorism was something people took very seriously.
As the 2 men in question mentioned, imagine if they were Middle Eastern and caught in the same situation?
Amadue Diallo (correct spelling?) anyone?
didn't the philly PD drop a bomb on some anarchists house in the 80's, causing an entire row of homes to go up in flames?
in the new war on terrorism, owning a camera is a crime - so all of you on this board that own cameras - you certainly better hide them, or maybe even turn them into the local police station, maybe witha statement signing away your civil rights as well.
think it can't happen here? dan quayle was VP for pete's sake! anything is possible!
(oops - pardon the double post..)
Or drop a bomb onto the bridge to try to scare them away :)
Hey, that's the sort of non-nonesence, no-bullshit approach that more police forces should take with truculent criminals. Granted, in the M.O.V.E case could have been a little more thought out, but criminals need to get the message that standoffs and hi-speed chases will end in their deaths.
In some instances, I agree. But when you botch an operation so bad that over 60 homes burn down, then you seriously F*cked something up.
Ahh. Aslong the media doesn't mention it, (court order of keeping it a secret) no one will know and no one will care.
as well as th deaths of many innocent people who just happen to be nearby.
sounds great. when are you running for president again? let's cut down on some of this overpopulation while we're at it...
What should happen: each man should receive several millions of dollars in compensation, and all the police officers involved should be fired and have their accumulated pension rights forfeited.
What will happen: nothing.
God DAMN America
God DAMN America.
I liked it better when you complaind about suit-covered annuses.
If that's how you really feel about the United States, what the hell are you doing here? This was an isolated incident.
Just because he happens to live there doesn't mean he has to like it or love it like all the overpatriotic rednecks out there.
-Robert King
So loving America qualifies one as an "overpatriotic redneck"?
What does hating America qualify one as? Or does your name calling only attack America and its supporters?
Alan Glick
GIT'EM, Alan GOD BLESS AMERICA
I'm attacking rednecks. No more. No less. If you want to go hide behind a flag and state your incorrect assumptions on my position about America and what qualifies one as a redneck in my books, or even implicitly suggest that I may be a terrorist, and try to force extreme-limit-only sides to issues go right ahead. Fortunately for my limited patience and temper for that kind of crap, people fitting that general discription are few and far between where I live and everybody takes a more sensible, pragmatic and utilitarian approach to things.
-Robert King
No -- your post clearly makes the claim that those who like or love America are like overpatriotic rednecks. Your post clearly insults those who like or love America. My pointing this out does not earn me the comment of yours that I am hiding behind the flag. Of course, when emotional statements are pointed out to those making them, they have no recourse but to indulge in more emotional rants and lies. For example, nowhere did I imply that you were a terrorist, but that won't stop you from making that claim or any of the other over-the-top childish comments in your post.
Alan Glick
Normally I take stories like this with a silent reminder to myself that this sort of thing is (hopefully) an isolated occuance. However, I've been working my ass off at two jobs and I've made plans and committed money to visit Philadelphia for a week near the end of the summer. I'm now quite concerned in a realistic way - particularly since I'm not an American - about what could happen to me since I will be photographing SEPTA's streetcar operations extensively while I'm there. Despite not wanting to be a conspicuous tourist or railfan, I'm beginning to entertain the idea of bringing along as many T shirts that I can get my hands on with pictures of streetcars on them to make it perfectly clear that I'm photographing them because I'm a railfan. I'm really not sure how to proceed on this one.
I agree entirely that compensation is in order for the photographers and that the police should be disciplined severely. This sort of thing is intolerable.
-Robert King
Normally I take stories like this with a silent reminder to myself that this sort of thing is (hopefully) an isolated occuance. However, I've been working my ass off at two jobs and I've made plans and committed money to visit Philadelphia for a week near the end of the summer. I'm now quite concerned in a realistic way - particularly since I'm not an American - about what could happen to me since I will be photographing SEPTA's streetcar operations extensively while I'm there.
I'd suggest that you not go to Philadelphia at all. The city doesn't deserve your money, not if it's paying thugs like those supposed cops.
I'd suggest that you not go to Philadelphia at all. The city doesn't deserve your money, not if it's paying thugs like those supposed cops.
There's a lot of decency in Philly, including in the police dept. Your tar brush is far too wide.
I'm going to Philadelphia, that much is certain. I just need to figure out some workable method of handling whatever may be headed my way if people notice I'm doing a lot of photography and decide to panic. Personally, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if I was going to Vancouver to photograph electric buses, something I'd like to do sooner or later, but not what I'm actually doing in August.
-Robert King
If you wanna go take pics in Philly, take them in one of the high-crime neighborhoods....there aren't any cops around for miles in those areas :)
That makes sense, the cops could get hurt in a high crime area, much better harrasing photographers!
That makes sense, the cops could get hurt in a high crime area, much better harrasing photographers!
Robert, you go and take all the pictures you like. You have that right. Freedom of movement has not been canceled here in America the last time I checked. My only suggestion is that you might tell a policeman if you see one what you are going to do. I don't think there will be a problem. Try to look at it from their position, though. They could think you are taking pictures to "case out the joint" for a future terrorist attack, strange as that might seem to you. September 11 changed the equation in much of our society, sad to say. Everyone has to be more vigilant.
Philadelphia itself is a great city thats making a lot of progress....their police department just sucks. And it is incredibly difficult to straighten out the department. Mayor John Street has more important things on his mind.
I hope that Mayor Street's "more important things on his mind" means the piss poor educational system in that city. Those young minority kids who can't afford a prep school or a fine suburban public school are getting the shaft and no one seems to give a damn about them. Street has the ball in his court and must drive the lane for the good of the kids.
From what I understand, it's actually the people in Harrisburg that have been giving Philly kids the shaft when it comes to public education. IIRC, the state actually took over Philly's public schools despite Mayor Street's protests.
Chicago's schools were stuck in the same situation some years ago, except that the state lawmakers in Springfield did the exact opposite of what Harrisburg did: They dumped it all in Mayor Daley's lap and washed their hands of the whole affair. Daley appointed Paul Vallas to head up the schools and re-structure them, and to everybody's surprise, it's actually working so far.
Vallas was forced out of the job last year when became too independent for Daley's comfort, and decided to run for Governor of Illinois. In one of the closest Democratic primaries in state history, Vallas narrowly lost to Rob Blagojevich, who will be facing Republican Jim Ryan in the fall.
As for Vallas, there's some pretty strong rumors floating around that he may actually be tapped to head up Philadelphia's schools. Stay tuned...
-- David
Chicago, IL
You are absolutely right, David. Harrisburg has cut public education funding by over 20% in the last 30 years, and Philly is really suffering because of it. The problem of the Philly schools has been going on for over 40 years, and it will take a long time to straighen out.
First of all, Philly's tax base has left for the suburbs. That means that Philly has less money to run the same system. And when Harrisburg isn't coughing up extra money, Philly is getting F*cked.
Also, racial politics plays a big part of the problem. Often, the person most qualified for the higher-ranking jobs happens to be white, and its very hard for a white person to head a very black school district. The mayor and the city councilmen would crap their pants.
Its a very complicated story, and Mayor Street needs to clear other things up first. He needs to attract more business and industry to Philly and build up the economy so he can cut the enormous taxes first.
Building industry and economy does not *cut* taxes. It increases them. Hopefully however, it *will* increase the taxbase faster than it will increase the tax.
Elias
What I meant to say was that if Philly's tax base increases, then more revenue would be coming into the city, and the city could cut other taxes. Right now Philly has sky-high taxes. If there is a larger tax base, they will have more income, and can then afford to cut some of the taxes.
His spokesman just announced it today. Looks like I won't be the only Chicagoan moving to Philly this summer!
Story in today's Chicago Tribune:
Vallas to head Philadelphia public schools
Hopefully he'll be able to work similar magic in Philly as he did in Chicago.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Is this a TRANSIT issue?
Oh, shut up.
It was a follow-up to an earlier thread that was of interest to railfans. It's a drop in the bucket compared to all their other off-topic postings on the board right now, and certainly is no less relevant to transit.
And I sure as hell don't need some cyber-nanny to tell me if my postings are off-topic. If Dave wants to delete it, he's more than welcome to. Last time I checked, your name isn't Dave Pirmann.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I guess I am to be a mind reader to know that this post was for someone else asking about a non-transit related issue.
The subject of the posting was clearly spelled out. If it doesn't interest you, then don't click on it. And I guess it would have killed you to click on the previous posting up the thread to find out what it was in response to.
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot this is YOUR world... It's all about you, isn't it?
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is here is of posting non-related transit topics.....this is what SUBTALK and BUSTALK is all about. Why do you think the webmaster decided to stop it?...because too much non-transit related material kept getting posted to the point that it became personal and then rather criminal. So I am only saying, and no, this is not "MY WORLD," for all of us to follow some common sense as what you post. Thank you all out there.......
Let's hope so! Thanks for the link.
They should leave photographers alone and go after scum like scab WAL*MART managers who lock their employees in the store to work as SLAVES. The Government should declare WAL*MART stock WORTHLESS. One BIG thing wrong with America is that there is too much abuse of economic power. GOD BLESS AMERICA GOD DAMN INSURANCE COMPANIES GOD BLESS TRIAL LAWYERS WHO ARE THE ONLY WEAPONS WE HAVE TO FIGHT CORPORATE ABUSE.
GOD BLESS TRIAL LAWYERS WHO ARE THE ONLY WEAPONS WE HAVE TO FIGHT CORPORATE ABUSE.
Even more so because they do their work pro bono rather than taking their cut up front. Regular SAINTS. *lol*
I didn't say they were saints. just a little less dirty than the insurance companies.
You were God blessing them.
If it weren't for them we'd be rooting for our favorite rollerball players. Rebuild certain government agencies (SEC, FTC, ICC, CPSC, EPA, etc) and we would not need them anymore and then you may do with them as you see fit. All I know is that since 9/11 all insurance rates have skyrocketed with terrorism cited as the reason for the increase even though the specific risk biing covered is unrelated to terrorism. Non mutual insurance companies should not be allowed to sell new policies. Mutual should be the only legal ownership structure for insurance companies, or any financial instution, for that matter.
We're way off topic, but the reason for increased premium in most cases is not terrorism, but the need to replenish capital. The major reinsurers have all paid out over a billion in claims already from the WTC event(s). Without replenishing that capital, there is no way they can write as much coverage as they used to -- so supply is down, but demand is the same or higher -- up goes the price.
In the case of worker's comp for large numbers of employees in a single location or property insurance for trophy buildings (or locations near trophy buildings) the risk is considered to be much more than it used to be.
To get somewhere back near the topic, I have been under the impression that the TA (or actually, the MTA) purchases no insurance, even for the most catastrophic claims. Can anyone confirm this?
CG
In St.Louis, the St.Louis Steam Train Association has announced that this is the last season for operation for operation of their Frisco 4-8-2 1522 because their premium ihcrease was so large. I am involved in rail perservation and our group received a letter from our insurance carrier that our premium will increase "more than 10%" = It will probably double or triple. Many rail preservation organizations around the country report the same thing. Several are going out of business. In fact, every day, you read about businessen of all types that are being strangled by this cross subsidy. Mutual ownership of insurance companies by the policyholders and mutual ownership of reinsurers by the insurers is the answer. also, a simple version of tort reform where attorney's contingency percentage is reduced will discourage plaintiffs with weak cases from finding an attorney to take their case. This situation CAN NOT GO ON!!!
Insurance operates in a free market. You have an option not to insure. Thus it is not a rip off. I am aware there are certain legal requirements that requires insurance. It just means you have to have capital backing. So if you have no capital, it's not a rip off. There's nothing stopping you from gathering the capital required to settle a claim (except perhaps your inability to raise cash)
AEM7
You DO NOT have the option not to insure. Businesses must have insurance to cover their work. No company will write you a loan secured by uninsured assets (ie, a mortgage). In most states, a statement of fiscal responsibility or insurance is required for automobile ownership. Companies and municipalities that self-insure generally have sufficent assets to meet major claims.
-Hank
You DO NOT have the option not to insure.
yes you do
Businesses must have insurance to cover their work.
or have enough capital to meet the self insurance requirement. if you don't have enough capital, thats your problem
You need to check up on your US laws. To do business with the public, you must have insurance, or another form of financial surety. To get a loan, the assets used to secure such loan must be insured. The only people who have to option not to insure are private homeowners with no secured liabilities.
-Hank
It isn't the law which requires insurance, generally it is business prudence and economic reality. Banks require their mortgagees to purchase property insurance, auto leasers require comp and collision coverage, etc.
There are very few laws requiring insurance. In many states, even the "mandatory auto insurance" laws can be fulfilled by showing proof of financial responsibility. Workers Comp in many states is not mandatory if a company posts a sizeable security deposit (and reinsures catastrophic claims).
CG
Insurance... It is at its base people arranging together to protect one another. The first fire departments were actually insurance companies of a sort. If you bought in, they would come hand help you in the event of a fire. If you didn't buy in, they would bring the marshmallows.
You are paying a rate, in a pool with others, to protect your investment, in the event of a catastrophie. You hope that your house never burns down, you hope that you never have a wreck, you hope that you are not sued. And so you do not expect to see any return on your insurance premiums.... Unless an unexpected catrostohropy occurs.
Medical insureance? Pharmacy insurance? what arrant nonsence is this. Here you DO EXPECT TO RECOVER MORE THAN YOU PAY! It is NOT insurance at all, but rather a financing shceme, and the sooner people get that through their thick heads, the better our health care systmes will become.
Automobile Insurance! What a JOKE! It is based on the ancient (1700s notion) that you only need liability insurance if you have property that you would want to protect in the event of a law suit!
The onus of liabaility insurance ought not be on those who own cars, but rather on those who have taken out a driver's license! (It is good economic snese... because the premium pool is spread much wider, and individual rates would then be lower~~~ though a family would now have to insure several drivers riather than one car, the agragate ought to be in the ballpark the same). It helps to weed out the bad (drunk) drivers with less governmental intervention. You BAD, you PAY more before you can be licensed. Rate too high.... buy a metrocard.
Yes a millionare could post a bond, and thereby be self insured. No problem. And so this is how the city and the subway insure themselves... The cover suits out of their own pockets. Meethinks that the municipality, (and the ta) need some better protection against suits. Yes they are at fault for driving over that lady on the tracks.... Having be warned that she was there... but too many suits are too friviolus for words.
Oh well.... what do I know about ekonomicks!
Elias
Businesses must have insurance to cover their work.
or have enough capital to meet the self insurance requirement. if you don't have enough capital, thats your problem
And how many rail preservation organizations would have remotely enough capital to self-insure???
Businesses must have insurance to cover their work.
or have enough capital to meet the self insurance requirement. if you don't have enough capital, thats your problem
And how many rail preservation organizations would have remotely enough capital to self-insure???
my point exactly
if you dont have money, dont whine
if you do have money, go self insure and cut the insurers' profit margins
if you need/want the risk coverage, pay up
if you think it's too expensive? well, too bad. the insurance industry is dodgy anyhow to start with; it's a matter of debate how much they charge you viz-a-viz some other customer. the price does not really relate to risk but more relate to how much they can get away with charging. price is market-based and not cost-based. if you think you can cover similar level of risk with lower costs, persuade some investors this is the case and go into the insurance business. until then, pay up and shut up
AEM7
They could always go without any liability coverage -- since I'd assume that other than their equipment they have very few assets. Of course that's not an option if they're getting public money.
It also makes it very difficult to recruit volunteers who have any personal wealth (in the event of an incident, I imagine the plaintiff attorneys would go looking for a way to cut through to the personal assets of the volunteers if their only recovery was going to be 1/3 of a steam engine).
CG
Just for my 10 cents worth the whole setup STINKS and it is not deep pockets that pays...it is the little sucker, you, you, you and me, the preservationists, business in general...and if things aren't forced out of business the consumer pays,pays, pays.Meantime the lawyers get a nce hunk of change out of it, somebody who'd probably never have had a pot to --- in sees a fortune they'd never have had..all power to them BUT somebody pays, as always it "trickles down" to the little guy.
A business that can't withstand a 10% price increase in anything they purchase was probably on very shaky footing to begin with. I'd guess, however, that the increase for a tourist railroad is probably closer to 50%.
A single year over year isn't really a fair one. I'd be very curious to compare what the St. Louis Steam Train Association paid for their insurance in 1987 and then compare it to what they paid in 2001 and what is proposed for 2003. In most cases, rates for commercial insurance in 2001 were lower than they were in 1987, before factoring in inflation and changes in the litigousness of Americans.
Mutual ownership generally works well with smaller risks, but the ability to raise any kind of capital is extremely limited. If you want to get into anything of size, you would need some form of assessable mutual -- and there are very few policyholders that would sign up for something like that.
Once you get into the world of reinsurance, you're talking global risks and the potential for massive losses (or profits). I don't believe there has ever been a successful mutual reinsurer. A reinsurer's major selling point is their capital base and their ability to add to it in an emergency (the highest rated US reinsurer is Warren Buffet's Gen Re). Mutuals operate with limited capital and nearly no ability to raise additional $$. I doubt a mutual reinsurer would be able to bind a single contract.
Expect the insurance situation in the US to get worse in the next 12 months.
CG
A business that can't withstand a 10% price increase in anything they purchase was probably on very shaky footing to begin with. I'd guess, however, that the increase for a tourist railroad is probably closer to 50%.
I saw that and I suspect that that is a typo on his part. I would be very surprised if the increase was anything LESS THAN 100% !
Elias
Re Read my post - " I am involved in rail preservation and our group received a letter from our insurance carrier that our premium will increase "more than 10%" =It will probably double or triple"
Re Read my post - " I am involved in rail perservation and our group received a letter from our insurance carrier that our premium will increase "more than 10%" =It will probably double or triple"
(This situation CAN NOT GO ON!!!)
Oh, yes it can.
Most people are ignorant of the economics of insurance. Insurance companies collect your money, then they get to hold it until its time to pay out. When investment returns are good (ie. when stock prices are going up 20 percent per year), then they'll do what they have to do to get your money, even take in less in premiums than they have to pay out in claims. The investment returns are expected to make up the difference. So, in a bull market you get an insurance price war.
What happens when the stock market starts going DOWN 10 percent per year, instead of up the expected 20? Suddenly, insurnace companies don't really want to write policies anymore. Meanwhile reserves have fallen, and regulators start worrying that there won't be enough money to pay claims, and demand more revenue to finance reserves. Suddenly, everyone has to take in far more in premiums than the amount paid in claims, enough to cover investment losses, costs and profits plus the claims themselves. KABOOM!
Just wait a decade or so, and the cycle will reverse again.
You've pretty much summed things up, though there are two clarifications to your post.
First is that it isn't really the stock market that drives the insurance cycles, the bond market has more influence. Insurers are limited by statute as to how much they can hold in stocks -- most assets (usually about 60-70%) are in bonds. Up until about 12-18 months ago, insurers were figuring 4-6% rates of return on $$$ held during the time between when premiums are received and claims are paid. Now no interest credit is being given.
Second is that it won't take 10 years to turn this cycle. Rates will reach there peak in about 12-18 months and then begin another slow decline. The last period of declining rates lasted 13 years (from 1987-2000).
Not that people will notice this in their personal insurance. Homeowners and Auto insurance have very little investment return built in, and generally follow a more steadily upward trend to keep pace with inflation.
CG
>> GOD BLESS TRIAL LAWYERS [THE ONLY] WEAPONS WE HAVE TO FIGHT CORPORATE ABUSE. <,
First, stop shouting.
Second...trial lawyers as a weapon *against* corporate abuse? Puh-Lease!
It is lawyers (many of whom are employed or retained by insurance companies) and lobbyists who got us into this mess in the first place.
OK, so you like unions. In my opinion -- for the most part, unions suck.
Please feel free to continue to spout your meaningless drivel at will...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
When speaking about this issue Insurance companies and their shills refer to plaintiff's counsel as trial lawers. Of course, they have attorneys on staff (the TRUE pond scum) but they don't like to talk about that because it's easier to evade payment by creating the perception that: A. many claims are fraudulent (actually not as common as they're ad budgets make you think,) and B: that they are out lawered by the victims even though the only thing bigger than thein ad budget is their legal budget.
I agree on the part of unions. They have their place in the world, but especially in terms of politics, all they do is stand in the way of progress and create a drain on our tax dollars.
Read "A Prayer For The City", by Buzz Bissinger. Its all about Ed Rendell as mayor of Philly, and how the unions screwed the entire city.
Jeez Red, that is pretty nasty stuff about meaningless drivel. You can disagree with him about lawyers, which puts me on your side, but allow John to give his opinion without a mean counter attack. I happen to agree with him on unions, though. They are needed. Though there have been some crooks and scandals by union leaders in the past, for the most part they have played a very positive role for the betterment of the worker's economic well being.
>> ...pretty nasty stuff about meaningless drivel<<
You are correct in your assesssment.
Further, I apologize not only to you and John, but to anyone else who may have thought those particular words were overly harsh. It was late (as I recall) and I was getting a mite punchy.
Sorry for the delay in apologizing, but I was away for the weekend and am only now catching up...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
It should be: "God DAMN those Keystone Kops" not the entire country...
It should be: "God DAMN those Keystone Kops" not the entire country...
I guess you're not planning a trip to Philly in the near future, are you, Doug??????!!!!!!!
I'll be undercover in Philly. Don't tell anyone (just between you and me) but my disguise will make me look like heypaul...
I agree with your post !! hell i took pictures of a few SMELLY
oil - refi' in many states ...!!
>>>>>>God DAMN America !!
Have to disagree with you. Those photographers have the Consititutional right to speak to a lawyer and to know what they have been charged with. Those pigs (cops) should be punished severely for what they did. Just like the dirty bomb suspect Jose Padilla (an American CITIZEN) currently being held without charges. How many months has he been held now? He should be (and will, with just compensation when his trial finally comes) let go to teach wannabe dictator John Ashcroft not fuck with our rights. Where does it end? Who's gonna considered a war suspect? So far, the "crime" of photography is considered an act of war, what's next? I've personnally have been held (but not arrested) for two hours by some MARTA pigs for taking photos in a station. The reason? "Because of all the stuff going on." The strength of a country is tested during the BAD times, not the good. If we can't uphold the Constitution now, we're FUCKED.
Oh, crap! You have the same position as me. I thought you were being sarcastic, and I didn't see the "nothing" part. My bad. My opinion strill stands.
Have to disagree with you. Those photographers have the Consititutional right to speak to a lawyer and to know what they have been charged with. Those pigs (cops) should be punished severely for what they did. Just like the dirty bomb suspect Jose Padilla (an American CITIZEN) currently being held without charges. How many months has he been held now? He should be (and will, with just compensation when his trial finally comes) let go to teach wannabe dictator John Ashcroft not fuck with our rights. Where does it end? Who's gonna considered a war suspect? So far, the "crime" of photography is considered an act of war, what's next? I've personnally have been held (but not arrested) for two hours by some MARTA pigs for taking photos in a station. The reason? "Because of all the stuff going on."
You're not disagreeing with me. In fact, I agree with just about everything you say. Ashcroft is a dictator, and is also one of the biggest idiots in the government - he lost his Senate re-election campaign to a dead man, and he is afraid of calico cats because he believes they're instruments of the devil (that's not a joke!)
My theory for all this bedwetting paranoia is that Americans just aren't used to living with uncertainty and fear. With the exception of Pearl Harbor, there have been no major warlike acts on U.S. territory since the Civil War. That bred complacency, which of course came to an abrupt end on September 11th. And more to the point, we had no experience to guide us in dealing with the new, less safe world. Absurb overreaction was the result. I can only hope that this climate of fear will diminish over time.
The strength of a country is tested during the BAD times, not the good.
Very well put. It looks like the United States has failed that test, big time. What a disgrace.
You're not disagreeing with me
I realized that after I posted, check the reply to myself I posted just three minutes before you posted this one.
I agree 100%
I hope we get past the childish and dangerous idea that everyone who pins on a badge is automatically a hero, although, many truly are and their heroism is stained by scum like these.
This isn't the only incident the Philadelphia Police Department has had to make them look bad. They probably have the worst reputation of any major PD in the country. We can blame Frank Rizzo for that. His racial policy up until the 80s was to beat the crap out of black people, whether they did anything or not. If police brutality or misconduct would happen in the US, chances are, it will happen in Philadelphia.
Maybe the police did overact. But all we have from the article is the story of the photographers, their attorneys, and the ACLU, reported uncritically. If I were trying out my new camera taking multiple pictures of an oil refinery, the least I would expect is some interest from the police.
In other venues, we note that, pre-9/11, some were aware that middle eastern men (racial profiling accusation) were taking flight lessons (lots of people do that) and weren't really interested in taking off or landing (so what?) and were paying in cash (hey, it's says "legal tender" right on the notes). And post-9/11 were screaming: "how come nobody connected the dots!!!!"
It's interesting to me how quickly we're ready to blame the police, even post-9/11.
what a bunch of fascist thugs. YES, I am aware there is 'a war on terrorism' but last I looked the Constitution had not yet been abrogated. And this sort of crap has gone on for years. A RR bull who accosted me in Potomac Yard circa 1961 suggested I might be a spy--right a high school kid with a folding camera photographing random freight cars. At the very least stiff fines, long suspensions, and retraining.
apologies for generally off topic.
>>> but last I looked the Constitution had not yet been abrogated. <<<
Unless of course the government wants to call you an "enemy combatant" (taking target photos for use by terrorist saboteurs) and lock you away without trail, charges or even the ability to communicate with an attorney.
Tom
lets all show up at THAT LOCATION take TONS of pictures !!!
can they arrest all of us ???
@ now can we go back to talking about rail trnsportation ????
.......lol !
Thank you for reminding us of the stated purpose of SubTalk, Salaam. I posted the story with the unstated connection to railfan photography.
Former (?) SubTalker heypaul had to erase railfan videotape in front of a police officer.
The gentleman who accompanied Jersey Mike, Isaac Shomer and me on the SubTalk SEPTA field trip last December was escorted out of the Wilmington (DE) Amtrak station for photographing trains.
A kid in South Jersey had two rolls of film confiscated by police 6 months ago for photographing Conrail Shared Assets freight trains within ten miles of a nuclear electricity generating plant.
Hop onto a night owl flight and join our SEPTA trip tomorrow at 9:30 AM Eastern time and enjoy a session of riding and photographing trains in and around Philly.
Bob
thankz !! whish i was there thankz for the invite !!
is america becoming nazi germany ??
God DAMN America
says a subtalker !!
Let's be serious, these guys should know that in this post-September 11th world that something like this would easily arouse suspicions, just like late last week when 2 Iranian nationals from the U.N. were spotted and later detained by authorities for videotaping the Statue Of Liberty. I mean you've got to use common sense out here, because I would get suspicious too if I saw 2 unknown persons taking all kinds of photos of a place like an oil refinery, and think of what kind of target that would make for a terrorist. So I think that the police exercised an age old mentality of "better safe than sorry". And that mentality is important to have especially in this world we are living in now.
late last week when 2 Iranian nationals from the U.N. were spotted and later detained by authorities for videotaping the Statue Of Liberty
I could understand how the Philly incident occurred - however the 4 hour detention not to allow contact with an attorney is outrageous and I hope those photographers win MILLIONS in court!!! Police should also be made aware and sensitive to the fact that there are hobbyists who are into things like railroad photograpy. A few simple questions on site would have resolved the issue here.
Having said this the detention of people videotaping the Statue of Liberty is EXTREMELY troubling. If I were a tourist I would want a video or photographic record of my visit here. What is the point of visiting somewhere if you can't photograph it. NYC is sending a clear message to tourists - "STAY AWAY"
I feel that the free market is probably the best weapon against all these paranoid terrorists fears. If people just STAY AWAY from locations that have disproportionate security measures (like the Washington Mall this 4th or the entire Independance Mall in Philly) then those in charge will quickly get the message. I mean would you put up with airport style security to access an open public place? If you had to pass through a metal detector to like enter Battery Park would you bother going there for lunch? No, of course you woudln't. When the officials see that they are guarding what in effect has become a deserted plot of land they will realize the insanity of their actions. They could achieve the same effect just by fencing off said public place and making it a moot point. After all this patriotic fervor dies down you will see drastic decreases in the attendance at any location with disproportinate security.
I feel that the free market is probably the best weapon against all these paranoid terrorists fears. If people just STAY AWAY from locations that have disproportionate security measures (like the Washington Mall this 4th or the entire Independance Mall in Philly) then those in charge will quickly get the message. I mean would you put up with airport style security to access an open public place? If you had to pass through a metal detector to like enter Battery Park would you bother going there for lunch? No, of course you woudln't. When the officials see that they are guarding what in effect has become a deserted plot of land they will realize the insanity of their actions.
Indeed, it looks as if the fireworks display on the (heavily guarded) D.C. Mall yesterday was a big flop in crowd terms, although the heat might have been an issue too. But your idea is an excellent one.
But its still ridiculous. The photographers were standing on Passyunk Avenue, which is a very heavily traveled bridge. They were taking pictures of things obvious to thousands of drivers every day. Its not like they were taking pictures of something secretive or relating to detailed plant operations. If you aren;t allowed to take pictures of something that easily viewed, then America has really gone to hell.
Just a quick FYI, it IS illegal to take photographs of a secure federal facility (in my case, this was the Federal Metropolitan Correctional Facility in Brooklyn). I was escorted into the prison, my film was confiscated, my driver license was recorded, I was questioned on who I was working for, and I was let go. I did not have proper media credentials at that time (I do now, and can take photos unrestricted within NYC). At the time, Al Sharpton was being held there for protesting the military exercises on Vieques, and I looked like this:
I'm sure this had something to do with it.
-Hank
What do you have to do to get the proper media credentials?
Work for a recognized media organization.
-Hank
I could not see the picture you posted (I'm assuming from the little box with the red x in it). Is that a browser problem on my computer or on of those things were only some many people can see the picture at one time?
I'd really like to see it!
Thanks
It's hosted on Geocities, that's the problem. You can load the pic seperately.
-Hank
One way I found to get around the remote loading bans by Geocities, Lycos, Angelfire, etc is by making the picture part of a webpage, albeit a very large part, like 95%. Then you could put a link of the url right on the forum post. The only problem is that besides getting the image alone you'll get popup ads. But then that should make the free website server happy and not mind you using the loophole. An example is the image of me operating the doors on probably the ONLY R9-Low V marriage in the world at Branford
what does ""Al Sharpton "" have to do with this ..........
your photo link did not work .......dont worry this happened 2 me 2 !
Al Sharpton was in the prison I was attempting to photograph. I work for a black newspaper.
As for my photo...
-Hank
yea the link (s) sometimes do not work
yahoo and webshots sony pictures forget it !!!
....the websiyte blocks it !
finally i found one that would allow photo uploads / transfers !!!
here is my mug shot below ...you look like a bodyguard !!!!
lol !!
And Peace be with you too.
Nice Picture, Thanks
Elias
That streetcar looks so much better in the Pacific Electric paint.
-Robert King
yes it does! there is a plan for a third BIG RED CAR>>redbird<<
as i was given information to convert another blue line car
by the yardmaster at the long beach blue line yards ...
the san diego trolley ""redbirds"" all look very nice
maybe the color scam should nave not been the MTA white & gold.....
Heck, I'm surprised the fashion police don't put you under the jailhouse for those glasses :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just a quick FYI, it IS illegal to take photographs of a secure federal facility
To me that means there is a federal law on the books that specifically states this. However I doubt there is any law that prohibits the taking of pictures of refineries, power plants, or for that matter - railroads! If the government wants to prohibit such picture taking then congress or the state legislature should pass a law - my point being that police should not have the right to be lawmakers as well as enforcers.
But what have we come to - the only countries that prohibited many types of photography used to be BEHIND the iron curtain.
If terrorists were out gathering information you probably wouldn't see it. It's the hidden hand that delivers the deadly blow.
I would get suspicious too ... the police exercised an age old mentality of "better safe than sorry". And that mentality is important to have especially in this world we are living in now.
NO.
If we succumb to that mentality then the terrorists have won. Restrictions on personal freedom are a hallmark of repressive and totalitarian régimes, not of a democracy. The United States has already moved a great distance away from the democratic ideals upon which it was founded; we need to move back towards the system envisioned by the founding fathers rather than permitting ourselves to be pushed farther away from it by a bunch of two-bit thugs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> we need to move back towards the system envisioned by the founding fathers rather than permitting ourselves to be pushed farther away from it by a bunch of two-bit thugs. <<<
Hey, what can you say, we more or less elected the guy who appointed the two-bit thugs Aschcroft and Rumsfeld, and the United States Senate (who should know better) approved them.
Tom
WRONG! We didn't elect the Resident of the White House...the Electoral College SELECTED him! If i recall correctly, Gore got over 530,000 more votes.
WRONG! We didn't elect the Resident of the White House...the Electoral College SELECTED him! If i recall correctly, Gore got over 530,000 more votes.
Which is only .3% more of the total votes cast.
The electoral college is the founding fathers intention. Like the Senate, it serves to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Otherwise, all one would have to do is campaign in big cities and win their vote, small states would be left out and be effectively useless.
The question hinges on who really won Florida. This is a question whose answer will never satisfy anyone. While it is too late for it now, I personally believe that the right answer would be to satisfy NO ONE, that is not have Florida send any electoral votes to Washington. Disenfranchisement would be the appropriate punishment for a state that is unable to handle an election smoothly. The Constitution gives the House of Representatives power to elect the President if the Electoral College fails to do so, and those members are actually elected by the same people who choose electors. In the end, Bush would still be the president (28 states are majority Republican in the House and it would go by state).
As for who would be the Vice President, that would be an interesting outcome.
530,000 is not .3% of the total votes. The total votes cast was in the neighborhood of 100 million....making 500,000 .5%
The electoral college was rendered useless as soon as the two party system came into affect in the early 1800s. Putting small states at priority was not the founding fathers intentions. As originally planned, people would vote for a ELECTOR that they trusted would decide to place their vote with the right candidate. This was because at the time most people didn't know anything about the candidates, since there was virtually no media. Nowadays, you vote for the candidate, and the entire electoral process is pretty much useless. Depending on what party you belong to, you may or may not give a damn about smaller states. Gore focused his energy on big states that had a high democratic presence. Bush focused on all the smaller ones that he would win much easier.
making 500,000 .5%
Ooh, .2% is a big difference.
In any event, still smaller than the margin of error, making an effective tie.
As originally planned, people would vote for a ELECTOR that they trusted would decide to place their vote with the right candidate.
In effect, people wishing to become electors would campaign not on their qualifications, but rather on whom they would vote for.
When you vote for a member of Congress, you want to choose someone based on how they will vote. It's much easier when the person you elect will make only one vote and then go home.
Depending on what party you belong to, you may or may not give a damn about smaller states.
Which is why the smaller states need protection, otherwise nobody would ever give a damn about them.
Gore focused his energy on big states that had a high democratic presence. Bush focused on all the smaller ones that he would win much easier.
All of them focused on the "swing states" which could go either way, regardless of whether they are large or small. The candidates couldn't care less about states (like New York) that are strongly one party or another, because the outcome is expected and almost impossible to change.
Your memory is getting a little short Pig. The fault for that debacle rests at the feet of the liberal commentators who showed their bias when reporting the results. Just remember Tom Brokaw said: "We are now ahead" when Gore jumped to an early lead in Florida, and nothing he says can stand up to his mealy mouth defense. Also, he, Rather of CBS, and Jennings of ABC called Florida for Gore even though he was leading with less than 20% of the vote cast and a lead of only two percent. They did NOT concede North Carolina to Bush even though he was ahead by 8%, did not concede Georgia to Bush even though he was ahead by 12%, and did not call Virginia for Bush even though he was ahead by 10% with more of the voted counted in those three states than in Florida.
And remember this.....There are two time zones in Florida and when those liberal and bias bastards called Florida for Gore, between 100,000-150,000 voters decided not to go to the polls. Since Bush carried the Panhandle areas overwhelmingly, those people unable to vote would have swollen Bush's total so that it would have been close to 100,000 votes more than Gore rather than the 537. Democrats seem to have amnesia about this. But those are the facts.
Just remember Tom Brokaw said: "We are now ahead" when Gore jumped to an early lead in Florida, and nothing he says can stand up to his mealy mouth defense.
Regardless of to whom Florida was called, the election there would still have both candidates fall within 1/2 or 1% of each other, leading to the machine recount that eroded Bush's lead. The media calling for the wrong guy did little.
There are two time zones in Florida and when those liberal and bias bastards called Florida for Gore, between 100,000-150,000 voters decided not to go to the polls.
Those figures are obviously overblown. How many people wait for the last hour to go to vote and change their mind because they're watching TV? I'm sure that there are a few, but not a significant percentage of the population.
Those figures are obviously overblown. How many people wait for the last hour to go to vote and change their mind because they're watching TV? I'm sure that there are a few, but not a significant percentage of the population.
More are the ones who will not go out to vote thnkg that the election is already decided.
Elias
That's right and that's what happened thanks to messrs Brokaw, Rather, and Jennings, the biased bastards.
Democrats voiced the same complaints in 1980 in California, when Jimmy Carter conceded the election to Ronald Reagan well before the polls closed on the west coast. California Deomcrats were irate that several close elections were decided in favor of Republicans because west coast Democrats didn't go to the polls after the heard their candidate had lost the presidential race.
It will be interesting to see how the networks handle calling this year's elections in states with close Senate/Governor's races and that are in more than one time zone (like Florida, Michigan, Tennessee and Texas) though the real test won't be until the 2004 presidential race.
More are the ones who will not go out to vote thnkg that the election is already decided.
If the election is decided at 5 PM I can understand that. But again I ask: How many people are going to wait for the last hour to vote, and then only do so if they feel it's necessary? Not a significant number at all.
Nevertheless, there were other irregularities in the state that would have thrown the election the other way.
I still say the fair thing to do would be to disenfranchise Florida, the election should have been decided by the House, not the Supreme Court.
The house couldn't be counted on as reliably as daddy's judges ...
The people who decided not to vote were not 'unable' to vote.
-Hank
And just what does that mean? They were discouraged when the liberal newscasters called the state prematurely, figuring the state was already in Gore's column. You get that? Only two percent separated them with about 20% of the vote in. Bush was leading in three other states by a much higher percentage and more of the vote in, and yet those bums did not call those states for Bush. Period. End of Story.
By your own admission you're implying that the voting public are basically sheep and can't think for themselves, and so gave up on voting altogether beacuse the likes of Dan Rather and/or Tom Brokaw led them to think their candidate didn't have a chance? Uh, I think you've read more into this than there is...
Hey Doug, maybe I have, but I'm getting tired of those guys who keep trying to replay the 2000 Election. No pundit should call a state for anyone until the polls close in that state. Then we could avoid what happened two years ago. But I stick with my belief that those three mousketeers are very biased in the liberal direction.
The voting public, LIKE sheep, are only as good as the manure they're fed. Look at what happened to this entire thread. No "middle ground," no "reasoned enlightenment" ... we have "America" picking one extreme of thought or the other, waving the devil on a stick at the "other side" ... frankly I'm ashamed that after all we've been through in the past ten months, we're not one bit the better for all of it.
Germany, back in the 30's elected a right wing leader who promised to get the lazy off their duffs, take care of the socialist menace and bring back the pride of the fatherland. Then there was Stalin. The moral of the story is that perhaps NEITHER extreme is very good at all for any of us and MAYBE, just MAYBE we can all find a common ground.
Don't mind me, I'm a radical fundamentalist middle of the roader and I htink both sides are full of sheep. Moo. :)
Well put.....MOOOO back at ya....;-D
I take it that you aren't a fan of liberals....
Just remember, a liberal is much more likely to improve public transit than a conservative. Liberals don't have to be concerned about oil companies donating to their party. Liberals don't have to try to use as much oil as possible in this country. Liberals are concerned about the environment, and public transit is environmentally friendly. Liberals are more likely to spend the billions necessary for transit projects.
Before you express dislike over the so-called liberal bias in the media, why don't you get your head out of the sand and start to think a little about the good things liberals do.
The good things liberals do, like pick our pockets with high taxes and give us our money's worth with great highways, good schools, low crime, etc, etc, etc. Get real, I used to be a liberal, in fact, I was a member of the Young Democrats in both junior college and my Alma Mater. I saw just how phony they are. They talk integration of the races, a great point, but they send t heir kids to private schools, they laud intgreated communities but live in gated ones where the only thing black they see is the soil in their Hispanic tended gardens. Don't give me any crap about what liberals do. They have their hands in the cookie jar with the big shots as well. And if you have heard of Senators Kerry, Cantwell, Corzine, and Koll, you would know they are among the richest people in that body and not a one of them is a Republican.
I have always thought of Democrsts as political prostitutes, willing to sell their beliefs to whoever would buy thim.This of course has fractured the parts, since different regions have so many different agenda... But to be balanced, the Republicans have also prostituted themselves in recent years to a business-money oriented bent, somewhat disguised as conservatism, and frequently co-opted by a conservative agenda far to the right of where I would want to be. But... at least they are not fragmented like the Deomcrats.
In my picture of things, it is not a continum from liberal to conservative, but rather a circle, with the ultra librals being almost indistinguished from the ultra conservatives. But that was then, and this is now... and today Other agenda masquarade as liberal or conservative. A true conservative would not put up with the spoiled meat that Mr. Ashcroft sometimes seems to relish... A ture Consevative would be very much in favor of personal liberties, much much more so than a Liberal, or so I would think. I do not think that a true Conservative would bail out a business (such as an airline), but might well support a project (perhaps a rialroad authority) for the public good. But these are less conservatives seem more to me to be grasping Keeplicans, trying to hold on to every dollar, rather than investing in the infrastructure of America.
Of course if it were going for the infrastructure of America, it might not sit so badly with them, but *THEY ALL KNOW* that it is going to "those with a culture of government Subsisies" or some such apelation wich looks to me to be a circumlocution to avoid confessing that they are racist, and against welfare. Failing to realize that 'Bread and Circus' is a long conservative tradition (2000++years) to keep the rabble fat and happy, so as to not revolt against the government.
In any event it is unconsiable not to help others, who need a hand out in this life, or a helping hand to improve themselves for a better job, and besides, for the most part will turn around and spend the money in your store anyway.
We have to BREAK the idea of the overnment being the handout of last resort.
We also have to BREAK the idea that each person is an island, and not responsable for the fabric of the whole community.
< /rant >
Elias
Well said Elias. True Conservatives are not the greedy plutocrats who rape our economy, rip investors off while they line their pockets. They should have their balls ripped off, the dirty bums. Oh no, I do not favor everything my party does. In fact, Bush had better get with the program and go after those corporate louses before it makes it bad for the rest of us who are middle class advocates at heart.
>> ...In fact, Bush had better get with the program and go after those corporate louses <<
Unfortunately, it is looking more and more as if he was one of those "louses" himself.
Bush & Cheney are so in bed with the oil industry and its lobby that there is little chance that any meaningful alternative energy sources will be explored as long as they are in office.
And few things (environmentally) are scarier than Gale Norton being Secretary of the Interior.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The good ol' leaders of the GOP...
G-as
O-il
P-etroleum
>>> the Republicans have also prostituted themselves in recent years to a business-money oriented bent, somewhat disguised as conservatism, and frequently co-opted by a conservative agenda far to the right of where I would want to be. But... at least they are not fragmented like the Deomcrats. <<<
The fragmentation among Democrats is exactly why they are not so dangerous.
Tom
The fragmentation among Democrats is exactly why they are not so dangerous.
Agreed, but that frequently gives the office to the Republican Candidate.
Elias
There were no conservatives or liberals 2000 years ago, the terms are only 200 years old.
Liberal comes from the Latin root liber, the same as the root of Liberty.
Conservatives comes from the word conserve.
By the true definitions of the words, conservatives want to maintain the status quo (ALWAYS BAD), while liberals want change (good, in moderation).
The liberals were the bourgeoisie who wanted to take down the aristocracy and modernize. The conservatives were the gentry, who wanted to maintain their status quo of kings, nobles and oppressed masses (like Metternich).
When the Industrial Revolution brought the bourgeoisie to power, the new gentry were for freedom for people and for business, that was the liberal of the 19th century.
By the time these people were in power, they became the conservatives, they achieved their change, the liberals were now the people who wanted to overturn big business, but still have personal liberties.
It gets more complicated, but today, conservative and liberal has NOTHING to do with change or lack thereof. A conservative is generally for controlled masses and free business and a liberal is for controlled business and free masses. This is why the term libertarian has to be coined for people who want free masses and business.
The terms conservative and liberal mean nothing, they're just based on 19th Century political classifications. In the future, the stand of the conservative and liberal parties will both change.
In the United States, the parties are named for 18th Century political classifications, and the Democrats used to be the conservative party while the Republicans were the liberal party. Remember when the South was solidly Democratic?
There were no conservatives or liberals 2000 years ago, the terms are only 200 years old.
?????
The conservatives were the gentry, who wanted to maintain their status quo of kings, nobles and oppressed masses
And Roman Emperors who wanted to pacify the mobs of people in the city by ensuring that they were well fed and entertained (the colloseum) -bread and circus- so that they would not revolt and overthrow them.
What bothers me vis a vis welfare in this country is that it operates much the same way: "Here, take this money and don't bother me with your problems." (And oh yeah... vote for us again in November, Thank You.)
According to me, giving and taking money DOES NOT SOVLE social and interpersonal problems. (That woman who won that 14M judgement is not going to be 'healed' or 'made whole' or 'all better' just 'cause she was given money... she STILL has the underlying problem that drove her to despiration in the first place). Having people come into your life with assistance, care, and concern will make a diference, but *that* costs five times as much as just giving people money and letting them fend for themselves.
Some Catholics are really torn over the issues of political parties in this country: They really favor the social positions and policies of the Democrats, but cannot support them at all because they support Abortions. Rpublicans do not have much of a social conscious, but they are against Abortion, and so that is that.
The problem is that both of these dog houses are being wagged by the tail fringe! Too bad a third party does not have a chance.
Oh well.... there is no resolution to this issue.
Elias
You are only describing the rich democrats....which is the minority of the party. The MAJORITY of democratic voters are not wealthy at all.
The MAJORITY of democratic voters are not wealthy at all.
But this is also true of Republican Voters!
Thats very true, but the point i am trying to get across is that the Democratic party is supposed to benefit the working class, while the Republican party is supposed to support business and wealth. Whether this actually happens or not, thats another matter.
Business and wealth benefits everyone.
Without business, how will people work and get a paycheck?
But what I am getting at is that often times Republicans will favor big business and the wealthiest class, while neglecting the primary concerns of the working class. You are right though, they all tie together.
Chris,
I fully agree. An (maybe overly simplistic) example is in management/union situations, A democratic administration would tend to view things more from the point of the union while a republican administration would tend to view things more from the point of business.
My feelings are that business will always look to maximise profits, more times than not, they tends to lead to negatives for the workers; things like conners being cut on safety (we dont' need two men to do that job, one can do it; maybe so, but two may be needed to do it safely) and senior workers being let go to be replaced by junior ones who make less money. Democracts would call that unfair labor practices, Republicans would call it the wisedom of the free market.
Thats very true, but the point i am trying to get across is that the Democratic party is supposed to benefit the working class, while the Republican party is supposed to support business and wealth. Whether this actually happens or not, thats another matter.
That's too bad! Why should we have a political system that divides. That divides people into classes. Jobs and employment come form the 'wealthy business sector' and Spending money on schools and training builds good employees. Spending money of city and national infrastructure provides jobs for both business and the people they hire. Spending money on people -human assets- who need public assistance for whatever constellation of reasons will spend that money buying things that businessmen provide.
Hello? Phone home... We are one people, living in one country, we just gotta make things work... or the colapse of Capitalism will be truly many orders of magnitude more spectacular than the colapse of Communism. And It is already starting if you want to look at Enron or WorldCom... : A greedy dishonest business is a very troubling situation, that can bring down faith in the markets, and in our money.
And the thread on Labor Relations is also troubling. Why should business, especially a firm such a the TA try to shaft its employees, or even give the perception of shafting them. Hey, nobody can be perfect 100% of the time. An employee is a valuable company asset and needs to be protected by the company, not treated like a snot filled tissue. If an Employee cannot be 100% pro his company, he ought to be working elsewhere. An employer is entitled to expect loyality in return for his money. An employee is entitled to expect respect, training, suppor, and a paycheck from his employer.
It is the same thing as the political parties, only on a more personal scale.
Elias
Read any economics text book published in the last 20 years and you will read that profit=ethics.
Read any economics text book published in the last 20 years and you will read that profit=ethics.
And they don't mention Enron or WorldCom at all!
I'm just wondering when the military will start bombing Enron, Worldcom, Imclone, and Martha Stwart's corporate headquarters. These companies have now managed to do more damage to the economy than the terrorist attacks.
-Hank
I'm just wondering when the military will start bombing Enron, Worldcom, Imclone, and Martha Stwart's corporate headquarters. These companies have now managed to do more damage to the economy than the terrorist attacks.
Heh heh, that's a good one.
There's another villian to consider - as I've said on another forum, the damage to New York's economy caused by 9/11 is a small fraction of the damage caused by 1199.
Neither are the vast majority of Republicans. In fact, most of us are pro-choice, social moderates and fiscal conservatives. In addition, we want good schools, safe neighborhoods, and an end to poor kids getting ripped off my subpar schools.
Rich people will never represent poor people, no matter how hard they try.
The problem is that you have to be rich to be a big politician nowadays, or be supported by rich people. This is nothing more than a plutocracy.
While I believe in free reign for money and business, I believe that it should be separated from politics. There should not only be a separation of Church and State but also a separation of Bank and State.
All elections should be government funded, all political contributions (a euphemism for bribery) should be banned.
Pigs, Ralph Nader among others, would agree with you.
>>> Ralph Nader among others, would agree with you <<<
So would Joe Stalin.
Tom
Last time I checked, Joe Stalin was pushing up daisies...
Last time I checked, Joe Stalin was pushing up daisies...
Actually, this is not so. The Daisies REFUSED to grow there.
: ) Elias
Well, actually the daisies formed a committee and created a five year plan which resulted in a putsch. The daisies were then shipped off to Siberia to reconsider their political centerings.
Just remember, a liberal is much more likely to improve public transit than a conservative. Liberals don't have to be concerned about oil companies donating to their party. Liberals don't have to try to use as much oil as possible in this country. Liberals are concerned about the environment, and public transit is environmentally friendly. Liberals are more likely to spend the billions necessary for transit projects.
Mostly true. Conservatives will be big supporters of transit projects, however, if they see them as being important to business. That's likely the case in New York.
But conservatives are too absorbed with giving tax cuts that nobody wants instead of allocating billions toward transit projects.
The problem is that nobody in New York will elect a conservative. Bloomberg is a Democrat disguised as a Republican and Giuliani was the last of the Rockefeller Republicans.
As a result, the Democrats do jack squat because they take the city for granted, and the Republicans do likewise because the city is a lost cause. I think you said that before.
Why should the Democrats take the city for granted- Heck, the Republicans elected the last two mayors. If they are smart, they will develop some bench depth for the future.
New York City went republican the last two outings because of this critter called "JUDY HOPE" who kept putting her puppet, one "Mark Green" up again and again. The dems have FINALLY gotten the clue. Whoops, strike that - Judy Hope is now behind Andy Cuomo. :)
No, Judy Hope has finally gotten a clue.
Beg to differ, she's the hand behind the new puppet. You'd think we'd already had enough of offspring of bad politicos. :)
Oh come on Selkirk, ole Mark Green will surface again---just like a bad cold. It is kind of nice that the greatest and largest city in the country has a Republican Mayor, but I want to finaly depart from the political tack and get back down to subway matters. I have a few questions to ask that I know little about since I'm three thousand miles away on the left coast. Here goes.
1. Any idea when the #1 train will be getting back to South Ferry and when the #3 will be re-routed to New Lots.
2. I hear all this talk about a 2nd Avenue Subway, but is their anything in the works right about now?
3. What's the status with the lines that are supposed to be heading to Coney Island but are not because of the work on Stillwell Avenue?
4. Why is it that we never hear about a 1st Avenue Subway. Doesn't First Avenue have any need for one?
Thanks to those who try to answer my queries.
I'll take a stab
1. Any idea when the #1 train will be getting back to South Ferry and when the #3 will be re-routed to New Lots.
The work is progressing on the new tunnel. Things should be back to normal in the fall. Just pray they come to their sense and NEVER bring back the 9 train and skip stop.
2. I hear all this talk about a 2nd Avenue Subway, but is their anything in the works right about now?
It is funded in the current capital budget and is probably closer than any time since they shut down construction in the 70's. Not dirt has been moved yet. They are still debating over the actual route in lower Manhattan. Either to build a new tunnel under Water Street or tie in to the Nassau Street Line.
3. What's the status with the lines that are supposed to be heading to Coney Island but are not because of the work on Stillwell Avenue?
Only the N is cut now (sorry about that). The F and Q will be cut in September. They short turn and I think there will be some bus service added.
4. Why is it that we never hear about a 1st Avenue Subway. Doesn't First Avenue have any need for one?
First Ave is not a bad alternative, but they have already done some work on Second, so . There is no way to justify both a 1st Ave and a 2nd Ave line. First is a little less developed than first, but with some of the new projects they are planning for the old Con Ed complex on First south of the UN, that is slowly changing.
1st Ave really makes a lot more sense. From Canal to 23rd and from 50th to 90th there is a lot of Manhattan east of 1st Ave/Allen St. (there is 0.75 mi. of Manhattan east of 1st Ave between Houston and 14th), while no one who lives between 1st and Lex is more than 0.2 mi from one or the other. You minbimze total walking distance by putting it on 1st Ave.
I think there was some kind of politics behind the decision in the 60s to go with 2nd Ave. Some very left wing groups were calling for 1st Ave because it better served the then very poor neighborhoods of Alphabet City. Perhaps the city establishment didn't want them to win on this issue. Of course, in the end, nobody won.
Looking at it another way, you do get more offloading of the Lex by putting it on 2nd Ave. If you put it on 2nd Ave, everyone who lives in one of the many high rises on 3rd Ave will be likely to use the 2nd Ave subway because it's less crowded, while if you put the subway on 1st Ave, they'll stick with Lex. The folks further east are a captive audience and so you might as well just make them walk an extra block. Again, back in the 60s the area east of Second Ave wasn't very influential. Even on the Upper east side it was mostly working class.
I've already mentioned about Giuliani and Bloomberg.
Giuliani is the last of the Rockefeller Republicans and New York's once-a-generation Republican mayor.
Bloomberg is a Republican out of utility only.
One more thought regarding liberal vs. conservative transit support:
I suspect that the Christian Right is going to become more pro-transit. Why? Well, they've become the most pro-Israel group in the country - even more so than Jews, who by and large won't hesitate to criticize Israeli policies when appropriate. As strong supporters of Israel, the Christians have a vested interest in reducing America's dependence on imported oil, much of which comes from Arab or other Islamic countries. Hence, they've got a good reason to support better transit.
But often instead of supporting programs like that, which might use some of their precious tax dollars, they would rather destroy our arctic wilderness by drilling for enough oil to satisfy us for a few months.
You got that right...
We agree on that one Doug. Some of my fellow travelers are too eager to rape the natural beauty of our environment for the sake of a bunch of dollars. But the other side doesn't want nuclear power, they don't want solar power, they don't want electrical power, and they don't want coal power. What the hell to they want us to do? Walk? Ride bicycles?, scooters? There has to be a solution for our energy problems and mass public transit could be the answer. It could create hundreds of thousands of jobs and help alleviate our need for that stinking Arab oil.
[they don't want solar power, they don't want electrical power.]
I never heard that they turned down those two....where did you hear that?
Solar Power does polute... To have enough collectors to replace a coal plant, you would have to cover half of the state of Nebraska to do it.
And have you ever tried to get a new electric transmission line installed out here. Oh NO!!!! the cows will start giving green milk, and the calves will be born with two heads!
Doesn't Matter how you build energy resources, SOMEBODY IS GOING TO COMPLAIN!
For the moment, Coal, Gas, Oil, and Nuclear are the most efficient.
So when somebody wants to work with energy policy, you by definition HAVE TO WORK WITH AND UNDERSTAND THESE GUYS! (Oh No, Mr. Bill... He's in bed with the energy interests again!)
Look, if you don't like the energy policy, sell the car, and disconnect the power lines from your house. If you will not do that, then *YOU* are in bed with the energy interests too!
You cannot power your car with conservation! Only Gasoline will make it go.
Elias
There is a huge problem with solar collector technology as it exists right now. Silicon-based solar collectors are most responsive to ultraviolet light. This is not good, because although sunlight has enough UV to give you sunburns and skin cancer, most of the sunlight that hits the ground is in the visible range. So current solar collectors harvest only a tiny fraction of the energy that hits them, and the rest is wasted. The development of photoresponsive materials that are sensitive in the visible range is an obstacle that has to be overcome before we can have a solar power plant that doesn't cover half of Nebraska.
Mark
What's the big deal with covering up one of those square states? Turn all of Nebraska, Iowa, and western Texas into a giant solar collector. No more complaints about tornado damage and flooding.
-Hank
Maybe Nevada would be better. We need Nebraska and Iowa to grow food. I figure it's better to cover Nevada with solar collectors than to turn the whole state into a nuclear waste repository.
Of course, I'd love to hear the opinions of any Nevadans who might be reading...
Mark
I figure it's better to cover Nevada with solar collectors
What makes you thing that such power will get out of Nevada.
They will burn it *ALL* in Las Vegas!
Hhehehehehe.........
Elias
"You cannot power your car with conservation! Only Gasoline will make it go."
Yes, but with appropriate changes, we could all go to the same places we get now, in the same amount of time, using half as much gas.
But if you do not have any Gas... you are not going anywhere!
Running out of oil... out of petrochemicals... will be the end of human civilization as we know it. [PERIOD].
You can get all of the nenrgy from nuclear that you need, but without petrochemical, there will be no plastics, no pharmasuticals, no synthetic fibers, no nylon, not even any condoms!
Conservation is vastly important, RIGHT NOW, but by it self it only puts off the day of reconning, it does not answer the issues.
Proble is, if everyone has a seat at the table, all they will ever do is talk about it.
Elias
Running out of oil... out of petrochemicals... will be the end of human civilization as we know it. [PERIOD].
This is centuries off. By that time, there will not only be nuclear, there will also be fusion and solar power. Petroleum is not necessary for plastics. The first plastics were made using plant matter. Recycling, and more advanced molecular manipulation will allow the development of carbon polymers from other sources.
And nanotechnology isn't that far off, that should make it possible to manipulate things on the molecular level, like turning lumps of coal into diamonds.
For the moment, Coal, Gas, Oil, and Nuclear are the most efficient.
Coal is dirty and has the worst kind of pollution, there shouldn't be any new coal plants built.
The best kinds of power plants are gas, nuclear and oil, in that order.
Oil would be better if a certain part of the world wasn't rich with it.
Alternative fuels for gasoline already exist. You can manufacture something called Bio-Diesel by using plant oils. The HempCar ran on hemp oils last summer and they toured the continent with it. It can go directly into any diesel engine without any specific modifications. Its extremely clean, and very renewable. It would make the Agriculture business extremely successful.
Pete, you must have had SBF in mind when you said that. I am so pro-transit that it is almost beyond the pale, and as far as this Christian is concerned Israel is just about completely in the right because I know the Palestinians want to wipe that country off the map despite what some "moderates" in the PLO say. I don't believe a word they say and never have. If there is such a thing as a Christian Zionist, your reading him right now.
[Bush carried the Panhandle areas]
It's interesting to note that that area happens to be heavily populated by what we Northerners might catagorize as "trailer park trash" and "Redneck Hillbillies."
LOL!!
LOL eh? I guess it is ok with you to think that term "trailer trash" is permissible? Bull$%^&$ it is. It is name calling and denigrating a certain class of people and you have no damn business doing it---if that was your intention.
I'm not busting on anyone, and i am not calling people names. I am merely expressing personal amusement with BMTman's post.
OK! Well I've calmed down a little myself and must admit that while I don't use or like the term, a little smirk comes on my face when I hear that term. I guess that makes me a little bit of a phony myself.
You can call them that. I call them American voters who were depprived from doing so because of a premature call on the part of some biased newscasters. You know they have names for some of you people in New York, and I do not permit anyone to denigrate them and shut them up quickly, and I don't think it is ok for you to call them trailer trash either. Name calling sucks and from what I know of you I think you are too big for that kind of crap.
Uh, but Fred, you yourself has -- albeit in the past -- used derogatory terms for and/or name called people here at SubTalk...if I wasn't gainfully employed I'd spend my free time going through the archives to dig them up for you...
Individual people yes, but whole groups? I don't think so, at least until what has happened in the Middle East to turn me totally against the Palestinians. Yes, I attacked and got mine back some time ago when I got into it with some of my Bronx colleagues, but to denigrate a whole group? Well, if I ever did you would have good reason to take me to task.
Well, I do remember you referring to Italians as "dagos" on numerous occasions. Despite being an Italian, i don't take offense to it, but its still name calling to a whole group.
Fred is also of Italian Descent.
I call them American voters who were depprived from doing so because of a premature call on the part of some biased newscasters.
How were they deprived of voting? The liberal newscasters didn't close the polls. If they didn't want to be sheep and worship the almighty cathode ray tube, they could have still gone out and voted.
They were stupid for waiting until 8PM CST to vote. What if someone going out to vote got stuck in traffic for an hour when they had 13 hours before? Would they then be deprived of the right to vote?
Touche!
For some stupid reason which I cannot fathom you libs just can;t seem to get it in your heads that those newscasters did have a bias and should never have called ANY STATE until the polls had closed. What is it about that that you cannot understand?
For some stupid reason which I cannot fathom you libs...
Don't call me a liberal. You only pay attention when I bash the religious right or big oil and not when I call for banning welfare, privatizing everything and so on.
just can;t seem to get it in your heads that those newscasters did have a bias and should never have called ANY STATE until the polls had closed.
I don't disagree that the newscasters have a liberal bias and shouldn't call a state before the polls are closed there (in fact, I don't think elections should be called until ALL polls NATIONWIDE are closed, even in Alaska and Hawaii).
What is it about that that you cannot understand?
My argument with you wasn't about whether calling the election when they did was right or wrong, here your selective memory comes into play. All I'm debating is that the people who did not vote as a result of what they saw on TV were not deprived of the right to vote then or for the 13 previous hours that the polls were open. In fact, people that stupid, regardless of whom they want to vote for deserve what they get for their stupidity.
They still got their candidate elected (I still contend that the amount of people turned away from the polls by miscall was NEGLIGIBLE). The fair thing to do would be to disenfranchise Florida COMPLETELY. Bush would have been elected by the House and Floridians would get what they deserve (all 25 electoral votes dismissed).
OK, that explanation is easier to fathom because it makes more sense. At least you presented both sides of the argument. Hopefully next time the newsmen will wait until a state's polling places close before making any projections.
Welcome to America....
EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is biased to a certain degree.
If these "deprived voters" had any modicum of "personal responsibility" they would have thumbed their noses at the "liberal media" and voted ANYWAY. Why do I suspect that the only people that stayed home would have been "democraps?" After all, REPUBLICANS aren't swayed by the pansy media, right?
>>> Northerners might catagorize as ... "Redneck Hillbillies." <<<
Rednecks and Hillbillies are two distinct groups. Given the elevation of Florida, one does not find Hillbillies there.
Tom
True, but the 'Hillbilly' part of the title refers to a specific mentality...not the actual distinct classification of peoples of the Ozarks...
Thanks for picking that up...
That pretty much describes the populations of most of the states that went for Bush. Throw in some wealthy Enron tycoons and right-wing religious fanatics for good measure.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Its nice to see that we have quite a few liberals on the board :-D
Oh, come on Dave, cut the crap. You've been in the Chicago Democratic hack machine too long. I don't think Ohio falls into that category, and neither does Missouri, Kentucky, Kansas, Alaska, or Colorado. They all went for Bush. On the other hand, some of the liberal hand out states did go for Gore who, as I get the impression, isn;t even held by his fellow Dems with much affection anymore.
Fred the states that went for Bush were characterised by two contradictory trends--public propaganda againast 'gummint handouts' and actual greater Federal expenditure than IRS proceeds--de facto hypocrites. The states which went for Gore were generally the more economicly productive areas of the US whose taxes go to support the rural, less well developed parts.
You mean the parts with all the farmland from which we get most of our food?
-Hank
Bullshit. Massachusetts is an overtax and underdeveloped economic state where things have been going downhill since Dukakis. New Jersey? Their infrastructure and schools are a disgrace, and what needs to be said about Rhode Island without wanting to throw up? Save that liberal propaganda for those who swallow it. Sorry Dave, you aren;t going to pass that crap off on me.
.
The whole thread was political, anyway. However the eariler postings dealing with police response to photography of critical infrastructure should be of great concern to all ralifans.
True.
Peace,
ANDEE
.
Jersey and Rhode Island are two of the wealthiest states per capita in the country.
Jersey and Rhode Island are two of the wealthiest states per capita in the country.
Ok.... but what state has the most *cars* per capita in the country????
: )
Why, California, of course!
Why, California, of course!
Nope!
Not even close!
Try North Dakota!
1) With low insurance costs, nobody pulls the plates off for in insurance refund just because they will not use the car for several months.
2) Since salt is not used on the roads, cars can last almost forever, and so a farmer might have three or four licensed cars, trucks, and pickups on his place. We only took a 1958 pick-up truck out of service this last year.
3) Every kid has to drive, there ain't nohow else to get around. It is not unusual for a family to have two, three or more cars.
4) And of course, nobody ever steals them out here.
: ) Elias
In SOUTH Dakota, the driving age is 14 years too high, while in North Dakota, it's still 16 years too high like in the rest of the country.
If they don't use salt on the roads, what do they use? And why is salt not used?
Thanks
With hard pack and ice, often plain SAND is the best. They do that up here too. Only on the majors roads do you see a bunch of salt.
Nonsense. Even moderate pundits said that there were about 150,000 people that didn't vote in the Panhandle after the state was called. Bush carried that region by almost two-thirds. You mean to say that those who didn't vote because of the call were equally divided between Gore and Bush. That's bullshit pure and simple.
Any registered voter that sits glued to a TV all day, then decides not to vote based on projected trends, is an idiot. There are always myriad races and issues or propositions in addition to the Presidential race. As a U.S. citizen, I consider voting (and jury service) a sacred duty. In the future, I think the media should refrain from election coverage until ALL the polls in the country are closed. At the very least, projecting races based on scant data should be forbidden.
Once upon a time, when I still lived on Long Island, I was consistantly one of the FIRST to vote in my district....
OK it's true, I had to catch a 6:06 train... : )
In all my years as a voter (there) I always signed the register with the same fountain pen, with brown ink in it.
Out here there is no voter's register to sign... the pole wardens (or whatever you call them) write your name for you in thier book, one book kept by the Repblicans, and another by the Democrats. Gotta Keep things honest.
BTW: We are the only state that does NOT have motor-voter registration, or any other sort of registration drives of any kind.
BECAUSE WE NEVER HAD VOTER REGISTRATION in the first place!
You show up at the pole, and you vote. They write you name in the book as having voted. (Boy would Mayor Daly -the Elder- have had a field day!)
: ) Elias
No voter registration? Could that be true? In this state (California), hundreds of thousands of illegals could flood the polls!
In Chicago, hundreds of thousands of dead people could flood the polls! Oh wait, that already happens.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You should know Dave. Chi has one of the worst reputations for that sort of crap, and Daley the First was a champion of filthy manure at election time. On the other hand, I have to hand it to you. Your city is about the friendliest city I have ever visited. I thought it was a put on but everywhere I went I saw warmth, hospitality and friendship. I wonder why. Big cities are not noted for such behavior.
>>> In Chicago, hundreds of thousands of dead people could flood the polls <<<
Wasn't the Chicago Democratic machine slogan "Vote early, vote often!!" ? :-)
Here in Los Angeles, the parties provide precinct workers to help turn out the vote by driving voters to the polls. In Chicago they use them to drive voters to the polls, then to next precinct polls, then the next precinct polls, etc. BTW, in one election when I was a precinct worker, I came across a motel which rented rooms by the hour, but had 30 registered voters.
Now that the requirements for absentee ballots have been relaxed so much, it is no longer necessary to go to so much physical effort to stuff the ballot boxes.
Tom
Who says they don't? There have been repeated accusations of voter fraud in some of the heavily immigrant areas of our state.
George: Bingo! Thanks for your post. I couldn't disagree with it even if I wanted to.
["The incident has left Madeira shaken and with a touch of insomnia. He's also still plenty angry."]
Wait while I go get my violin.
Its kind of obvious to me that there is alot in that article that is missing. The article is very one sided which is obvious as the only people interviewed are the 2 guys' lawyers who are probably going to sue for millions and settle for thousands. The article stated that the 2 cops came over, interviewed them, left and then came back with reinforcements. I'm willing to bet they also told them they have to stop photographing (which they have a right under exigent circumstance even if it IS normally legal) and only came back to arrest them when they ignored the order and continued taking pictures. To call them scum as some posters have done here just shows that the posters are the real scum. Do any of you read the papers about the extra security this past week. And two weeks ago the FBI issued warnings that the next attack might be by a fuel truck crashing into a bldg. (Get the connection-oil refinery!!!???)
I sure hope that the likes of John Blair, Peter Rosa, and FDNY Chris don't need a cop in the future, but maybe if they do they might change their opinions.
Well said.
I suppose a part of the anger and lack of judgment of some posters is picturing themselves being posted while photographing a redbird, and this could happen.
But a lot of people have taken off on these officers knowing absolutely nothing but the self-serving statements of the alleged "victims."
I want to know what was said in the initial confrontation that gave the police the impression (right or wrong) that it was necessary to call in extra force. We hear nothing of this--the police can't say anything because this is sure to lead to a lawsuit, so all we hear is from the detainees and their representatives.
Reporting one side of an issue is not the heart of journalism.
But a lot of people have taken off on these officers knowing absolutely nothing but the self-serving statements of the alleged "victims."
I want to know what was said in the initial confrontation that gave the police the impression (right or wrong) that it was necessary to call in extra force. We hear nothing of this--the police can't say anything because this is sure to lead to a lawsuit, so all we hear is from the detainees and their representatives.
Reporting one side of an issue is not the heart of journalism.
I agree that in theory there are two sides to every story, but in this case it seems exceedingly unlikely that there was anything that could have merited the police overreaction except, of course, paranoia.
You seem utterly unconcerned with the consequences of this incident on the two sides. The innocent photographers will have to spend the rest of their lives living with the humiliation and fear that they experienced. They were cruelly brutalized - no calls for FOUR HOURS!! - and people don't recover from things like that anytime soon. And let's not forget that their reputations are totally trashed. Sure, they might eventually get some money, but it won't make up for what they experienced.
Now the paranoid cops? Nothing will happen to them, nothing whatsoever. Even if the two men get a huge judgment, it'll be paid by the city's taxpayers, not the cops personally. About the only bad thing they'll conceiveably face is a reprimand or somesuch in their files. Big deal.
>>> The innocent photographers will have to spend the rest of their lives living with the humiliation and fear that they experienced. They were cruelly brutalized - no calls for FOUR HOURS!! <<<
LOL!! I hope you were being sarcastic. As someone who has spent a few hours cooling his heels in East Berlin while the Vopos went over my passport very carefully before they allowed me to return to the West, and spent a couple of nights in U.S. jails (no convictions), I have to laugh at the idea that they were humiliated or experienced fear that would scar them for life.
Tom
Vopos -- That is EXACTLY what we are trying to prevent in America.
>>> Vopos -- That is EXACTLY what we are trying to prevent in America. <<<
Actually there seems to be something frightening about German policemen, even in West Germany. As a foreigner living in Germany, I was called into the local police station to update my residence visa. There was just something unnerving about going there (it was located in the basement of an old building with small windows high on the walls to allow in light, but in my imagination to muffle the screams in the back). I was interviewed by a police officer who was really quite pleasant, but when I sat down at his desk he went to a file cabinet and pulled out a two inch thick dossier on me, read a bit and then looked up at me and went back to reading. He determined I was still living at the same address and stamped a new visa in my passport. It was nothing but a routine contact, but for some reason I was extremely happy to get back to the street when it was over. To me the three scariest words spoken by a policeman in either East or West Germany were "Ihre Papiere, bitte!" (Your papers, please), which never sounded like a polite request.
Tom
As someone who has spent a few hours cooling his heels in East Berlin while the Vopos went over my passport very carefully before they allowed me to return to the West, and spent a couple of nights in U.S. jails (no convictions), I have to laugh at the idea that they were humiliated or experienced fear that would scar them for life.
Treatment like that was predictable in the former East Germany. We're now talking about the United States, however, not a totalitarian regime. Mistreatment here is a different matter, one that can easily destroy a person's faith in democracy and freedom. That's certainly going to be more traumatic than mistreatment in a place like East Germany.
I don't know enough about your experiences is U.S. jails to comment.
They were cruelly brutalized - no calls for FOUR HOURS!!
Four whole hours. Wow.
Last September you were considering whether people who sold stock in the wake of the attacks should be executed for treason.
I guess we all have our priorities.
They were cruelly brutalized - no calls for FOUR HOURS!!
Four whole hours. Wow.
It's not just the time involved. Try to think of what these men went through. They we