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I remember reading somewhere here that they ran a DD train (I'm assuming it was a 6th Av local) for a short while...
If that's true, what was the story?
Perfect!!!
Thank you very much, I knew I wasn't crazy.....:)
Hey Mr. J-Train, come up to Shoreline Trolley Museum and climb aboard our R-9 # 1689. If you behave yourself we may let you "foam" and change the signs to read DD if the BMTman doesn't beat you to it.
Personally I prefer AA.
The priority on 1689, since it's an original IND piece and routing is mine.
If I get their first, it becomes a "GG".
There are no BMT routings except the Culvers on that car.
;-) Sparky
The last time both sides of the bridge were open, which side did most people prefer (assuming it didn't matter back home). I think that the TA thought it was 6th Avenue, but Broadway seems to pass more important locations, except for Rockefeller Center, and it has better transfers.
I think service was a little less screwed up when the bridge was closed to Broadway trains. Sure you lost the Broadway express, but I feel the 6th Ave connection is the more important one.
Is it more important because it is more important, or is it more important only because there is no other way to get to 6th from DeKalb (but from Broadway there's always the tunnel)?
Is it more important because it is more important, or is it more important only because there is no other way to get to 6th from DeKalb (but from Broadway there's always the tunnel)?
6th Ave is more important to go over the bridge beacuse Broadway still leads to DeKalb from the tunnel, so it doesn't disrupt service quite as much. Personally (so it's only my opinion) I feel Broadway is the more important service though, but it's not quite as much of a problem when service doesn't go over the bridge. It may slow it down a bit, but service is not as screwed up as it is when the bridge is closed to 6th Ave service.
So Broadway is the more important service, but 6th Ave is more important to go over the bridge. (so did I confuse everyone now?)
I prefered the Broadway Line. But then I was always partial to the BMT. I worked at 34th Street and lived in Brooklyn near enough to DeKalb that I could walk from DeKalb or Pacific Stree. Going to Manhattan, I could always take whatever train came in first, butgoing to Brookly, I had to stand on one platform or the other, and I always stood on the BMT platform.
Elias
While I'm on a question kick...
When did the QB stop running?
Last I remember seeing it was in about 1984....
Did the line go out of service when MTA went to all single letters?
QB did not go out of service, QB simply became the Q when MTA decided to go for all single letters.
Ah, right.....I should have realized that, I just didn't think before I asked :)
Thanks, Mike the Mailman!
I have a question. Which was the first train to not have flickering lights over third rail gaps prior to the GOH. And What was the first train to not have flickering lights while going over 3rd rail gaps. Answer would be appreciated.
Adam
I believe it was the R-44s.
Peace,
ANDEE
IIRC, the R-42s were the first to be wired to avoid the "flickering lights' effect, though I can't remember back in the early 70s what a train of R-42s and R-40Ms hooked up looked like when they went over a gap...
R40 to R46 came equipped with main light invertors. R10-R38 had 600 volt ceiling affixed main lighting, with the only difference being the R32A which had 600V advertising mounted light fixtures. Flickering or dark car lights applied to all of those cars whenever the main light reversors, ML1 or ML2 fuses malfunctioned and ballasts, resistors, invertors, bulbs, momentary and contactors failed. Trick question here: Which CAR post GOH was modified to avoid the flashing of car body lights after its associated fleet was GOHd without that modification?
Nope...the R-40 series came in with polarity reversers. Their main lights flickered going over gaps. The R-42s were the first with main lighting inverters.
I believe the individual car in question is 9336 or 9337, a single-unit R-33, which got the high-frequency AC lighting that the R-26 through (married pair) R-33 "Redbirds" got.
David
9336 sounds right, because I notice that car has acrylic covers over the flourescent lights, not the thick ribbed glass the cars originally came with.
Why were the thick ribbed glass covers replaced on the ML Redbirds? The old ones had class.
I rode 9336 this morning. I noticed the center row of lights are missing as well.
I was talking GE R30 there but I discounted the singles. You can have that point.
There's also an R-36 with the modification, and her mate doesn't have it.
Wonder if it was one of those carbarn shotgun weddings? :)
The R-40s were the last contract to have 600 Volt main light circuits, hence the last cars to have main lights that dropped out when the cars went over 3rd rail gaps.
R-42 - R-46 were delivered with inverters so the main lights were powered by batteries. R-62 and up plus all cars after GOH (except the R-33/R-36 WF cars) were built with inverter ballasts rather than an inverter card.
I just heard from Irwin (chicagomotorman) that our friend Pete Vesic passed away on Saturday. For those who were on the Chicago Field Trip last year, Pete was the guy who took us out on the CTA 1-50 series singles and gave us each some time at the controller. He was incredibly devoted to his volunteer work at IRM, and will be sorely missed.
On a more personal note, Pete was also the guy who I worked most closely with at IRM when I was volunteering there, and I considered him a friend. I'll really miss his dry wit, and his beloved CTA singles will miss him too. If only every other railcar at every other museum had such a dedicated guardian.
I feel like I should have something more profound to say here, but I can't seem to find the words.
So long, Pete.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I should have mentioned that he also leaves behind a wife and three kids. Please keep them in your prayers.
Donations to IRM in his memory would be greatly appreciated. IIRC, there's a specific fund set up for the CTA singles, in addition to the museum's general fund. Frank Hicks probably knows more about that stuff than I do, though. Here's the address:
Illinois Railway Museum
PO Box 427
Union, IL 60180
Maybe those of us who were on the Chicago Field Trip last year should chip in for something on behalf of the SubTalk community... I'm not sure exactly what, but it would be a nice gesture.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks for the sad news, David. I'll contribute to a SubTalk fund if one is established.
Bob
Definitely a sad day. Pete was only 47 years old, and was the last person you'd expect to have a heart attack. This hit a lot of people here at IRM pretty hard; he's been around for nearly 30 years.
I don't know that there's been any specific fund set up in Pete's memory at IRM, but a good way to memorialize him would be to contribute to cars 22, 30, 41, or 6461-6462. If I find out about a memorial fund at his funeral (tomorrow in Lombard), I'll post it. In the meantime, there are plans to drape car 41 with black bunting for the Trolley Parade on Fourth of July, but I don't know who's in charge of that or whether they'll have time to locate and arrange the bunting.
Frank Hicks
Thanks for the info, Frank.
One of my fondest memories about Pete, aside from the Chicago field trip, was from the Saturday after 9/11. I headed out to IRM partly just to do my normal volunteer thing, but also to try to get my mind off the events of that week. IIRC, I ended up helping Pete replace a horn on one of the CTA singles. Nothing notable really happened that day; it was just Pete and I working on that CTA car and taking it out for a spin afterwards. But for the first time since that dreadful Tuesday morning, I was finally able to think about something other than hijacked airliners and burning skysrapers. I returned home that evening in a much better position to face the weeks ahead. Thanks, Pete.
Regarding the Trolley Parade on July 4th, I may actually be able to make it out there that day after all. My friend's social plans for the day changed, leaving me free to head out to IRM. It will be nice to get out there again... I can't believe I haven't been there since October. What time are things getting underway? (I tried looking at the IRM website, but it's been offline all day today.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
From what I heard, Pete had been having some chest pains but it was misdiagnosed. I don't remember what the doctor thought it was, but it turned out to be hardened arteries. Early Saturday morning Pete got out of bed complaining of chest pains and went downstairs to sit up; when he didn't return his wife went to find him. The medics were called and they pronounced him dead on the spot at 7:30am. The funeral will be at Brust Funeral Home (I think that's the name) in Lombard tonight at 8:00; it's on Main Street, but I'm not exactly sure where.
As for Fourth of July, the Trolley Pageant is set to start between 1:00 and 1:30. The CA&E reenactment will be earlier, around 11:30 or noon.
Frank Hicks
I'm really shocked and saddened to hear about this. I saw Pete
just over a month ago when CERA came out east, and he looked fine.
Keep us posted, Frank.
Not to sound morbid, but none of us knows when that day will come.
May he rest in peace.
Condolences and best wishes to his family and all of you who knew him.
34 Street Connector, that would take 1 downtown express track from the 6th Avenue line and connect it to 1 downtown express track on the broadway line, and the same will go for the uptown express tracks. So the stop list would be like this
34St / 6th Avenue --> 14 Street / Broadway
12 Street/ Broadway --> 34 Street / 6th Avenue
It would work marvels though it would be one hell of an engineeing challenge and the new lines that could be created. A broadway line that goes on CPW. WOW! I could see alot of ideas with this connector if it were built.
That's a great idea. Would you extend track further east and allow it to terminate at Park Av, with a free interchange to the IRT Lex?
Why not go even further and extend it to Grand Central.
OK. Same platform transfer to the new LIRR GCT servcice being built?
Stupidest, most insane thing I ever heard.
I read the log of the chat where you described this to Tevi, and I told him the same thing.
Not only is what you described completely impossible without demolishing everything, digging a huge hole and rebuilding from the ground up, it creates no advantages.
For much, much cheaper, one can build a 6 track tunnel and 12-lane bridge to replace the Manhattan Bridge, keeping the bridge open while replacing, and even get capacity improvements out of it.
"For much, much cheaper, one can build a 6 track tunnel and 12-lane bridge to replace the Manhattan Bridge, keeping the bridge open while replacing, and even get capacity improvements out of it."
You're crazy, the cost of demolishing, trafic jams, rebuilding, shutting down lines, will cause so much hell, it wouldn't be funny. Plus you have to reconfigure all the tracks south and north of the bridges, meaning demloishing tunnels, removing switches and digging up alot of streets. Besides either end of the manhattan bridge cannot handle 6 lanes in 1 direction each. At maximum 3 lanes each direction is suitable.
All of that would be far less disruptive than what you propose to do.
Tearing, up flatbush avenue, canal street, reconfiguring dekalb, signal fixing, tunnel building, bridge demolishing, all that and its till more expensive then digging a big 4,500 ft long hole, and build 2 tracks similar to whats been done on the Queens Blvd Line? Also if it was built, the new manhattan bridge would be a toll bridge with the current budget crisis, and not to mention all of the traffic you'll be putting on the Brooklyn Bridge. I say thats a hell of a lot more expensive.
What traffic would you put onto the Brooklyn Bridge? The Manhattan Bridge would be wider.
The land near either approach of the Manhattan Bridge is much cheaper than in the Herald Square area, and it consists largely of unlandmarked, disposable buildings. DeKalb would not have to be reconfigured. The tunnels would be under the bridge, the tracks would temporarily go around the sides while the tunnels would be connected.
Meanwhile, the Sixth Avenue line through Herald Square is already the most expensive section of subway because it has to be above the City Water Tunnel, above the LIRR tracks, below PATH, and below the Broadway Subway. How are you going to build a tunnel through all this?
Sorry, but you cannot compare this to extending a dead-ending subway line along a street with no major utilities (like a water trunk), and connecting underneath a subway line that has nothing underneath it other than earth and nothing above it other than a wide street.
How can you go on and use the budget crisis to put down my ideas, when you don't consider that to be a roadblock to your idea? As for tolling the bridge, that should be done now, using continuously variable toll rates (the toll rate changes each hour according to demand with no published rates).
Toll rate changes, that is quite the interesting idea. By the way good debate. I would like to look at an architectual map of the Herald Square area with you and dicuss the idea further.
Do I hear a Boston Big Dig project in the future?
Seriously, Manhattan is becoming so overburdened with underground infrastructure that it becomes prohibitively expensive to build anything underground, because you have to move everything else.
Possible solutions:
1. Do a Seattle/Atlanta, and declare that the 2nd floor of buildings is now the first floor and put new lines on what was the street.
2. Hang the NIMBYs, revive the lease and franchises of the Manhattan Elevated Company and rebuilt the "Open Air Lines."
3. Consider the ideas of Fernando Ferrar, whose recent mayoral campaign was kind of overshadowed by Other Issues and build a new lineal downtown in the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens (or as pig would probably have it, the Cities of Brooklyn, Williamsburgh and Long Island City) and build a magnificent high speed loop to connect it all.
At least these solutions would show more imagination than what we have in the City today.
Oh, and elect Larry Littlefield mayor.
Oh, and elect Larry Littlefield mayor.
Larry Littlefield would have to carpetbag from the City of Brooklyn, wouldn't he?
I thought he was in Mr. Bronck's Land.
No, but the annexed district would not need carpetbagging.
Then I take it you don't like the idea?
The routing might be useful, but you would instantly be cutting the capacity of both the downtown sides of the 6th Avenue Line and the uptown part of the Broadway BMT Line.
So I would say no.
If I had a fish, I wouldn't be hungry.
I think that extending, rebuilding, or reconfiguting any existing line is mostly out of the question.
NEW LINES, NEW Crossings, and NEW Trunks is all that can reasonably be done.
And they probably couldn't interconnect with the existing without disrupting the whole world.
Take for example my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Line:
It is all new subway, and built deeply under existing routes where they need to cross, but is intricately woven about so as to avoid sharp turns, and to avoid existing routes.
I have checked out the main water tunnels, and they seem to be much much deeper than even the deepest of subway lines would go.
Because the new line does not run on any of the existing lines, it can be designed as a HIGH SPEED (75mph) line run with computerized precision.
It would probably cost less to build than any major ditzing with existing infrastructure.
I think the whole deal with building fantasy subways is to work them into the system without disrupting the system or slowing it down.
Any additional merges will slow it down.
As far as midtown goes, you take the line that gets you the closest to where you want to go without much in the way of transfers.
When I lived in Brooklyn and worked at St. Francis Church (31st&7th),
I took the BMT to 34th Street. There was NO REASON to change trains at 14th Street to take the IRT. Walking a few blocks in midtown is acceptable. Subways do not need to provide door to door service. It is sufficient that it runs from Neighborhood to the City.
Elias
I agree with you it is not easy to extend existing routes. It seems a lot easier than it really is. For example, it may sound easy to extend the, let's say the Queens Blvd line past 179th Street. Sure, it wouldn't be that difficult to extend it physically. The problem is that thought has to be given about all the new people using the line. The Queens Blvd line is packed now, think about if they extended the line, let's say to Francis Lewis Blvd. The train would probably be packed before it gets to 179th Street. Then what would they do with all the people that want to get on after 179th Street. The only way to extend some lines would be to build totally bypass lines, or a super express. It's not as simple as just adding tracks to the end of a current line.
Rebuild the 7 el into a 4 track High speed 30-40 mph on locals, 40-60 mph express upto 74st broadway. That would take alot of congestion off. Or you could build another pair on express tracks on the Queens blvd. line along queens blvd. There is alot of room and no NIMBYS concerns.
Extending past 179th Street wouldn't necessarily be a problem. All of the people who would ride it are already taking the bus to it.
The Pig is correct, the people living east of the line are still getting to work now, so a simple extension ought not of itself mean more passengers for the *subway system*, but it may change the riding patterns of some of those people. They might choose to take the new line instead of an express bus, or perhaps a bus to the (7) train. It is difficult to guess how patterns might change. If you go further east in Queens, especially with a super express, you will begin to pull traffic from the LIRR to your new line.
It is so tempting to extend the Hillside line to the county line, but much greater trunk and crossing capacity would be needed. At the moment we seem to have more crossing capacity in the QB area than we have QB trunk capacity, but it does not seem to be in the most convienent alignments possible.
Is there any rason why the express tracks between Continential and QBP cannot carry 45 tph right now, assuming the use of both the 53rd and 63rd Street Tunnels, and Improved turnabout capacity at Jamaica Center?
Why not the (F) and (Q) to 179th Street and the (E) to Jamaica Center all at 15thp?
And if that could be done, why not turn the (Q) at 189th Street and the (F) at the County Line.
Elias
A while back, the subject of the large jury award to the woman who was lying on the tracks and was hit by a subway train was discussed on the board. A letter to the editor of the NY Times makes the case that the jury award was reasonable and correct. Those damn T/Os should learn to stop a speeding subway train like the family SUV!
You would never guess it was writen by the President-Elect New York State Trial Lawyers Assn
I don't know how to do links, but there is where to find it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/01/opinion/L01TORT.html?tntemail1
The special July 4th Service Map is up on wmata.com. Basically the same as in previous years: Orange line east of Stadium-Armory alternates between New Carollton and Addison Rd, Blue runs between Huntington and Rosslyn. Yellow goes to Franconia/Springfield. Smithsonian station will be closed for security (and also crowd control as it has often been majorly clogged).
Can I obtain a map from you ? It may be too late to request one from WMATA.
Please use my e-mail address.
Bill "Newkirk"
What do you mean "obtain a map from [me]"? If you mean the PDF file, just click the link in the earlier message I posted and it'll open in your browser (assuming you have Acrobat 5 installed on the computer), or you can save it to disk. I don't have any printed copies.
Once again, the crossing of the lines rears its head. WMATAGMAOAGH knows what I mean (I think I spelled his handle correctly)
Okay, so that's Green Line service from Branch Avenue to Greenbelt and Branch Avenue to Fort Totten. Right. Too bad they never tried a regular split service, such as from every other Green train runs from Fort Totten to Anacostia instead of the full route.
That wouldn't help because it only would cater to riders in the District and the "outer" stations would then only have half the service, making crowding even worse. I seldom ride the line, but when I have taken it to Greenbelt, it was heavy all the way to the end. I've never taken it southbound towards Branch Av, but I would expect it's the same story since opening those stations caused a major increase in ridership. Perhaps peak hour short runs like Greenbelt/L'Enfant and Branch Av/Mt. Vernon Sq might help, as all the key in-town stations and transfers would be served from each direction. Through passengers from one end to the other would have to change trains to continue their ride, but there are probably far fewer of them than folks heading downtown.
Right. I keep forgetting that you can't do much to increase Green Line frequencies without crowding out Yellow Line trains. I was thinking more along the lines of doubling the frequency between Fort Totten and Anacostia, rather than short turn half the current trains.
That's what I get for being a DC railfan and living in Philly. Up here, we inherited the system, as opposed to being able to build it as the communities grew. As a result, there is no such thing as a "shared corridor" in the SEPTA system, because the majority of branches and spurs that were intended to be separate lines were never built.
Does anyone know whether the NYC subway was every used to deliver packages for private package delivery services or for the USPS? I don't mean individual couriers but rather large amounts of packages or letters at a given time (e.g. an entire car).
Only by private messengers.
I remember reading somewhere that when the subway first opened in 1904 the NY TImes used to have some of their papers delived via subway. Sort of makes sense since it ran through the basement of their building.
Story in Daily News:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-07-01/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-156095.asp
thanks!
Is there any plan to do anything major to the structure between Stillwell and Ocean Parkway?
Some rehabilitation work will be done at the W. 8th Street and Neptune Avenue stations.
David
I just hope the when all the rehab work on Stillwell is finished the place will look like it once did. Not only the platforms, but the downstairs area should be filled with shops, the bathrooms spruced up and the BMT signs cleaned and polished. It might go one other step towards reviving Coney Island.
Amen to that.
For once I agree with Fred, all we need now are a train od standards and Triplexs to run there in regular service, and the Parachutte Jump to reopen
Stop the presses!!!!
Bob and Fred agree on something! Now I've seen and heard it all.:-)
Now Steve, let's not get a case of apoplexy over this.
We agree to rag on you when we get together in October
Me and my big mouth.
Just watch if in the old BMT signs there isn't a slip-up toward honesty that would read like this: Brighton, Culver, West End, and Slow Beach lines.
Don't take this too personally Q---but stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
That is in Arcadia Cakif, because of all the SMOG
You have to feel sorry for poor old Fred.
That Southern California smog has gotten to his head.
He's went out there, went there to teach.
It's much more preferable to riding the Slow Beach.
Fred ... sorry to tell you, but the entire station is supposed to be enclosed in a Euro-style train shed structure. It's not going to look the same at all. Not even close.
--Mark
Hey El Marko, you have any other good news to tell me?
Yes, Fred, I do :) ... the new world record for consuming Nathan's hot dogs is 50.5 in 12 minutes. The same Japanese guy who won last year did it again this year. Second place finisher (a train conductor from Brooklyn, I heard; anyone know him?) ate 26.
--Mark
That Japanese guy is pretty big, isn't he?
He's described as "thin as a rail" in the news media.
I can understand putting a police officer at the last station before a river crossing (Tube) like Lex stops (N/W/R or E/V) but I don't understand placing a cop at Queensboro Plaza (one on both levels) when the Tube for the N/W is so far away.
Is this officer making sure no one walks down the right of way to the tube?
I assume maybe trackworkers (who have to check in with the cop if they are going to work in the tube) would access the 60th St. tube closer to the mouth of the tube then the station.
I could be wrong though and they walk down from Queens Plaza (or up, ugh).
I don't see their purpose at all. 7 times out of 10, when I pass them at either 161/RIVER or 155/8TH AVENUE, they are "napping". Real reassuring...NOT.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's called "Earning overtime for eating doughnuts."
I'm happy to see them there, earning overtime, protecting our a**es.
It's freaking hot down there, and I'm sure any one of use stationed in a chair in those conditions would have a helluv a time staying awake.
Seen at 138th St downtown 4/5 on Monday night: empty chair, many newspapers, 2 cans of Raid Roach Repellent .... uh oh, you think the Roaches got him?
--Mark
Rats. Big as rabits, especially at wall street and fulton.
It's total B.S. If you are going to blow up the tubes I doubt 1 cop at the station is going to stop you. If you put your mind to it and want to do it you will do it. Plus there are other ways to destroy the tubes if you want to.
It's total B.S. If you are going to blow up the tubes I doubt 1 cop at the station is going to stop you. If you put your mind to it and want to do it you will do it. Plus there are other ways to destroy the tubes if you want to.
It's possible that the cops serve the same purpose as the National Guard M.P.'s at Penn Station. My stepdaugher and I were talking about them yesterday, in the context of one of my periodic rants as to how Americans (and especially New Yorkers) have turned into paranoid bed-wetting cowards who see a towel head lurking around every corner ready to pounce. I pointed out that they'd be of little use in a bombing situation - not that there's even the remotest chance of such thing occurring, of course - and seem to spend most of their time flirting with young women. Anyway, she pointed out that the National Guard dudes probably are there for reassurance - their presence is meant to make Penn Station seem safer and thereby lure back fearful people who'd otherwise stay out of crowded public places. The cops in the stations nearest the river tubes might be doing the same, largely symbolic thing, in other words making the subway seem safer, although their lower visibility in contrast to the Penn Station dudes might weaken that theory a bit. I still think that's the case.
, in the context of one of my periodic rants as to how Americans (and especially New Yorkers) have turned into paranoid bed-wetting cowards who see a towel head lurking around every corner ready to pounce.
Really? I think most of us (New Yorkers) go about our business every day and don't get paranoid about homicidal terrorists lurking behind every corner. Look at the crowds of New Yorkers (not tourists) in Times Square.
you and I and everyone else knows very well there are no New Yorkers at Times Square
I PROPOSE:
The fare on the subway would not be posted, instead, it would constantly vary in proportion to the number of people riding at one time. The more people riding, the more you pay.
That needed correction.
How can a variable be constant?
When the same variable shows up throughout a system of equations. It's presence is constant, but its value changes.
Maybe that's a correct mathematical answer, but in a computer program that would simply be a named or global variable, no?
Yes, that's correct! Very good.
What is the point? I can understand this in terms of premium pay highway lanes. In that circumstance, as a premium lane (i.e., express lane) fills up, you raise the price so that only those who are willing to pay the most use the lane, thereby regulating its use in a market fashion.
By the time a person shows up to use the subway, their use is not likely to be cost-responsive, so instead of regulating use, I suspect you would simply be evoking anger.
LIRR does this (distance based and peak train fares). Washington Metrorail charges distance-based fare, though I do not think it has a peak-time premium.
I meant to say LIRR does it indirectly, in that peak trains are expected to have more people aboard. The fare isn't set to a passenger load formula.
Exactly. So they're presumably encouraging off-peak ridership and making some people ride at less crowded times through a financial incentive.
But I'm not sure about what pig is suggesting--if people don't know what the fare will be until they're ready to get on the system, what good result is created?
The fare would be announced on the radio. It would only change hourly.
What is the point of this??? to annoy people to no end? One could understand distance based fare, but HOURLY variation???
Solve this problem: Place coin and bill acceptors in the seat. As soon as you sit down, a steel arm holds you in the seat until you deposit the right $ (exact change only or tokens, please). The display of how much to pay changes based on the current weight of the train. If you don't pay, the arm doesn't release you - only the transit police can unlock it and they will release you after you pay a fine.
:0)
How many human rights laws would you like to violate today?
As many as possible at the same time.
I usually don't get a seat when I ride the subway. Does that mean I get to ride for free?
Absolutely - until we install handcuffs on the poles (they release when you drop a token in the box haging from the pole).
The trains are crowded enough that I don't need to hold onto a pole. What then?
Leg Shackles, chain you to the floor!
The trains are crowded enough that I don't have floor space to stand on.
One the roof you go. If your afriad of hights, we can have you hanging between the resitors and a air resivor, depression style.
Hang you from the ceiling? (If you don't put in exact change...)
THe ceiling? But there's another level of passengers up there!
See this:
Post 350691
The Continuously variable fare idea for the subway=bad
As toll for bridges=good.
Yes, Metro has peak fares:
Regular Fare $1.10 base (0-3 miles), maximum fare $3.25
Reduced Fare $1.10 (0-7 miles), $1.60 (7-10 miles), $2.10 (10+miles)
Regular fares are charged 5:30-9:30 a.m. and 3 to 7 p.m. weekdays.
Reduced fares are charged at all other times.
Is that based on entry time or exit time?
I don't know.
Officially, it's based on entry time. Based on my and my daughter's limited experience, however, it would appear that BOTH times must be within the window for the higher fare to be charged. Someone with more opportunities than I have might want to check it out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is based on the entry time. If you happen to be in a station just as the off-peak (non-rush) fare takes effect you will see knots of people wating for the clock/announcment (sometimes no announcment, everybody waits for 5 minutes more). It happens every weekday.
Are you going for this prize?
A previous subtalk post
Yes, but I've moved on to bigger and crazier things.
Like an East River El
That must be some strong pot......
Are you drinking vodka out of the bottle again?
;-}
lol...Hey, I didn't start these posts.
Heck with an East River El. How about an East River Submarine Train? Make it a Cable Car line so the 3rd rail won't short out. We could even(eventually) build an extension to Europe. "Now boarding at 37th Street and 3rd Avenue...Through service to London, Paris, Amsterdam, and Moscow." If we're gonna get silly, lets do it right. ENJOY
Or you could TBM to europe. Got to **ll Virgin Airlines. You must have a island every couple miles so people can escape.You will have to start it in newfoundland because the mountain range that streaches all the way to europe (deepest 600 ft.) That mountain range is also where first telegraph cable was laid on.
I PROPOSE:
The fare on the subway would not be posted, instead, it would constantly vary in proportion to the number of people riding at one time. The more people riding, the more you pay.
As I've noted before, that would penalize ordinary working stiffs who have to punch time clocks and therefore have no choice but to ride during peak periods. Your suit-covered-anus, alpha-male executive types, in contrast, usually have the flexibility to adjust their working hours and avoid the busiest (and under your proposal, costliest) times.
The executives have earned that high-exalted status. The rabble must earn its way to a seat!
I propose that, at certain times, only Armani-suited men wearing silk ties and gold cuff links be allowed to board.
:0)
(I propose that, at certain times, only Armani-suited men wearing silk ties and gold cuff links be allowed to board.)
That's as ridiculous as designating an entire desirable part of Manhattan and saying that you can only live there if you are an artist. Whoops, we did that already. Or building government subsidized (Mitchell Lama) middle income housing, but letting certain public employee unions, non-profits and political insiders know when and where the "first come first serve" waiting list would open up. Whoops, we did that too.
"Liberal" New York.
You need to factor in a "foamer" surcharge, plus an additional surcharge for those who insist that 76th Street exists but who refuse to obtain and post official documentation substantiating their claims.
How about $5 to sit at the railfan window?
Even better $5 to enter the transverse cab with drivers license (saftey purposes). Could have a vending machine dollar taker and a CC style dip reader for the Drivers License.
Even better $5 to enter the transverse cab with drivers license (saftey purposes). Could have a vending machine dollar taker and a CC style dip reader for the Drivers License. Also the Train could authenticate the Drivers license with NYS.
"How about $5 to sit at the railfan window?"
Hehehe... When Steamtown was still at Bellows Falls, I went there to see and ride the train. When I learned that *members* could get a ride in the LOCOMOTIVE, I joined up on the spot. Only $25.00, what a deal... I even got to sound the wistle at the crossings!
Best $25. bucks I ever spent.
Now the place is a Federal Park, and so you cannot feed the bears.
Elias
When Steamtown was still at Bellows Falls... I even got to sound the w[h]istle at the crossings!
So did I, back about 1961 or 1962... my father had made the acquaintance of F. Nelson Blount, the founder of Steamtown, while working on an IBM contract at Blount Seafood Co. We were invited up for a personal tour of the place and were guests at Mr. Blount's home for the weekend. I rode the cab twice, once each day, and had the privilege of blowing the whistle and (attempting to) shovel coal into the firebox of the steam locomotive. Not sure which engine it was... my recollection says it was a different locomotive each day but I'm not sure. (I was small enough to sit on Mr. Blount's lap while he was running the locomotive.) I also rode the cab of a diesel switcher on Sunday morning with one of Mr. Blount's employees.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NO,NO,NO! all 'variable' fares invariably damage most the workers who, have no choice as to shift times, and live further from the jobsite. IMHO, as the fares are a tiny fraction of the nominal costs, there is little point in 'shafting' the lower wage workers. The multi-hundred dollar an hour lawyer can wait to noard off peak but has no economic need to, the fast food server has the need, but a fixed schedule.
NO,NO,NO! all 'variable' fares invariably damage most the workers who, have no choice as to shift times, and live further from the jobsite.
You have no clue, do you? You're sold on the highway lobby argument "congesting charging will hurt those who have to work fixed shift times".
When I worked retail three decades ago, I was expected to appear just prior to the store opening, or my shift begining. How is this lack of elasticity related to highway lobby propaganda? A friend of mine who worked for one of the dot bomb outfits was given a 'commuter check' each month along w/ his $100k salary. (and no fixed office hours --a programmer) How many workers at Burger Wemdy Donalds get such benefits?
dang, by 'commuter check' did you mean Transitchek?
And invariable fares invariably damage anyone who travels short distances off-peak -- whether rich or poor. Why should someone poor who happens to be traveling in the middle of the day from Harlem to Times Square subsidize someone rich who happens to commute every day from Forest Hills to Wall Street?
If you want the rich to give money to the poor, fine, but do it under the guise of the rich giving money to the poor, not transportation, and stop making assumptions about who travels long distances at peak times, because they're often wrong.
Pig's proposal is obviously unworkable, but, logistics and politics aside, some sort of variable fare makes sense.
So I am missing something here.
1. If farebox recovery is below 50% (more like 20-30 in SF bay area) and if these 'deficits' are made up by non-regressive taxation, 'haves' are explicitly aiding 'have-nots' I believe this describes the economics of EVERY transit agency in the US (although regressibe sales taxes are also often a component of the funding dampening the benefits to the lower wage earners)
2. The elimination of 'double fare neighborhoods' with Metrocard bus to subway transfers was not(???) a move toward transit equity.
3. As to distance, I seem to recall that rents are generally lower as the distance from the CBD increases until you cross some magic border to'desireable' suburbs.
1. Farebox recovery on the NYC subway is well over 50%. It's the suburban commuter rail systems that take in the major subsidies, even though the subway has much greater and less affluent ridership. The only reason subsidies are necessary for the subway is that subsidies are also given to other modes of transportation.
2. It was a political move that, in a way, made an arbitrary transfer policy a bit less arbitrary. Keep in mind that, thanks to the new transfers, it's often trivially easy to make a round trip in Manhattan on a single fare. Not what you had in mind, is it?
3. Not true at all in NYC. Nor is it entirely relevant -- some people who can't afford high rents prefer to live tightly packed in high-rent areas over having more spacious accomodations in less expensive areas. But this raises an interesting question. Transportation over long distances costs more than transportation over short distances, but you think that the people who use low-cost transportation should subsidize the people who use high-cost transportation. Why don't you apply the same reasoning to housing costs? Shouldn't the people with low housing costs subsidize the people with high housing costs?
Good post.
Commuter rail gets about 25% of its operating cost from fares.
As to NYCTA transfers, the Metrocard transfer directly helps people who use city and LI Bus services, and this is a less affluent crowd, on the whole than the railroad commuters. But because it helped build ridership, it also helped fill the TA's coffers.
The only reason subsidies are necessary for the subway is that subsidies are also given to other modes of transportation.
I don't quite follow. The automobile is the one form of transportation that can be said to compete directly with the subway, not counting the even-more-subsidized buses. Whether auto ownership really is subsidized is one of those arguments that can go on forever without an answer. You've certainly heard the competing claims, which basically boil down to whether the value of the (mostly) free roads which the government provides is outweighed by the fuel and sales taxes motorists pay.
Even if we're to assume that auto ownership actually is subsidized, however, it does not mean that the subway therefore is unable to be self-supporting. New York's population and commercial density, and the resulting scarcity and high price of parking, makes driving an unattractive option for most people regardless of whatever subsidies they might be receiving. In other words, if gasoline suddenly dropped to 50 cents per gallon and car insurance rates plunged 75%, the subway would still be the better option for most intra-city trips. More to the point, if driving became crushingly more expensive, it doesn't follow that subway ridership would boom. Ridership probably would increase to some extent off-hours and in the outer boroughs, but it's very doubtful that we'd see any dramatic changes. Subway ridership and vehicle use are independent from one another to a much higher degree than might be imagined.
A much better way to look at things is to stop worrying about relative subsidies for various modes of transportation, and instead say The subway is a vital public service for New York and deserves whatever subsidies it requires, within reason.
The subway is a vital public service for New York and deserves whatever subsidies it requires, within reason.
The local supermarket is also a valid public service, yet it usually doesn't receive subsidies. They get paid for the food stamps they accept, but the government doesn't pay them a dime for non-poor customers.
They also get paid for the coupons they accept from customers.
"The local supermarket is also a valid public service, yet it usually doesn't receive subsidies. They get paid for the food stamps they accept, but the government doesn't pay them a dime for non-poor customers. "
Invalid comparison. If supermarket chains were required to open stores every 10 blocks throughout the city, operate them 24 hours a day, request permission from the Governor to change prices, and put up with customers' scratching and breaking windows on a daily basis, then you could compare the supermarket to the subway.
I don't care about any comparisons.
Peter Rosa justified the subsidies on account of the subway being a valid public service. I only pointed out an unsubsidised valid public service.
I don't quite follow. The automobile is the one form of transportation that can be said to compete directly with the subway, not counting the even-more-subsidized buses. Whether auto ownership really is subsidized is one of those arguments that can go on forever without an answer. You've certainly heard the competing claims, which basically boil down to whether the value of the (mostly) free roads which the government provides is outweighed by the fuel and sales taxes motorists pay.
I have yet to hear a credible claim that they are, as long as local streets are taken into account. Costs aside from the actual construction and maintenance, like noise pollution, air pollution, the use of eminent domain, and the loss of property tax and/or rent are invariably ignored in the comparison, even though the subway was built underground specifically to minimize these costs. (Oh, and BTW, sales taxes shouldn't be included in the computation unless you're referring specifically to sales taxes charged on motorist-oriented products and services above and beyond the sales taxes charged on other products and services.)
Even if we're to assume that auto ownership actually is subsidized, however, it does not mean that the subway therefore is unable to be self-supporting.
That's true. Perhaps, even when pitted against a subsidized road network, the subway system might be able to squeak by without subsidies. But why should it have to? Let's level the playing field.
New York's population and commercial density, and the resulting scarcity and high price of parking, makes driving an unattractive option for most people regardless of whatever subsidies they might be receiving. In other words, if gasoline suddenly dropped to 50 cents per gallon and car insurance rates plunged 75%, the subway would still be the better option for most intra-city trips. More to the point, if driving became crushingly more expensive, it doesn't follow that subway ridership would boom. Ridership probably would increase to some extent off-hours and in the outer boroughs, but it's very doubtful that we'd see any dramatic changes. Subway ridership and vehicle use are independent from one another to a much higher degree than might be imagined.
Yes, very few people actually drive into Manhattan -- and look at the awful traffic they cause! They inflict the traffic jams not only on themselves but also on bus riders (who have to sit in the traffic jams, since NYCDOT doesn't seem to be a big fan of enforced bus lanes), on neighborhood residents and workers (who have to listen to and breathe the output of the traffic jams and who have to dodge the traffic while crossing streets), on delivery vehicles, and on people who actually do need to drive and are willing to pay the cost.
A much better way to look at things is to stop worrying about relative subsidies for various modes of transportation, and instead say The subway is a vital public service for New York and deserves whatever subsidies it requires, within reason.
But whose reason do we rely on? Yours? Mine? Wendell Cox's? If the subway is a cheaper way to get around than whatever's predominant in city X, then why should we pay for city X's overpriced transportation? Conversely, if the subway is a more expensive way to get around than whatever's predominant in city Y, why should city Y pay for our overpriced transportation?
If we got rid of all the subsidies for transportation resources (including the hidden ones I listed above), then we don't have to worry about relative subsidies because they all drop to zero.
Better yet, individuals and businesses would finally be directly encouraged to use the most efficient form of transportation available, not the one that happens to receive enough subsidies to make it the cheapest to use. Global efficiency translates into lower prices.
And if we decide we should help out the poor with their transportation costs, fine. Give them transportation stamps (akin to food stamps), paid for by the welfare budget, valid on any form of transportation. There are ways to determine if someone is in need of financial assistance; distance or time of travel isn't one of them.
Rather than the current system, subway seats will cost money, and people will bid for the seat between each stop. The seats will be auctioned of using a dutch auction with people choosing the seats they prefer to have.
dude what the hell are you on? i'm looking at the last 4 topics you started. you need help....
Actually this one is serious, but difficult to implement. It would be a market solution to a problem and would make money for the TA.
The seats are an asset which should be sold at the market price (supply=demand).
Stop thinking logically, and look at reality.
With the bidding that would be required, service would be delayed more than it is now.
Why would it be delayed. The bids would be made before boarding on the platform.
Ingoring Pig's coke binge, let's think about other modes of transport. On a plane, if your Gluteus maximus takes up more than one seat, you pay for both seats. On a cruise boat, if you have lots of people in your party and you take up two or more rooms, you pay more. In a taxi, if you have luggauge and you use the trunk, it costs more (at least in Atlanta, I don't know about NYC).
Common sense pretty much says that everyone using public transit pays the same price, no matter how much space you take up. Is there any reasoning why it's different for transit? Maybe the high number of people using transit would make it impossible to sort out people? Or maybe because there isn't defined areas for people to sit of stand like you have with planes? Anyone else have any ideas?
Maybe there should be something on the fare gate. The rotating fare gates would be replaced with something like the doors on old trolleys and busses. It would be multi-section, and you would have to pay for the amount of width (# of sections) that you wished to pass through. Maybe the 2.00 standard fare, plus 20 cents for every door opened, perhaps 2 or three sections to the door, you could have metrocards with a special "wide body" fare built in, so you don't always need 20,40, or 60 cents. I have actually seen people stuck in fare gates, this would solve that problem, and allow the MTA, or whoever chooses to implement it, to collect a fare for that person who sits in two seats.
Oh well, I suppose it would proably somehow violate ADA or something, or perhaps it would be a kind of profiling, you know weight or size profiling as opposed to racial or sexual profiling. If I offended anyone, it really was not my intention, I just had an idea that i thought fit the post, so here it is, again sorry if anyone out there found this idea offensive.
Ingoring Pig's coke binge, let's think about other modes of transport. On a plane, if your Gluteus maximus takes up more than one seat, you pay for both seats. On a cruise boat, if you have lots of people in your party and you take up two or more rooms, you pay more. In a taxi, if you have luggauge and you use the trunk, it costs more (at least in Atlanta, I don't know about NYC).
Common sense pretty much says that everyone using public transit pays the same price, no matter how much space you take up. Is there any reasoning why it's different for transit? Maybe the high number of people using transit would make it impossible to sort out people? Or maybe because there isn't defined areas for people to sit of stand like you have with planes? Anyone else have any ideas?
Oops, almost forgot my flag
*****
Using wireless computer terminals, people will pay rent to use a sidewalk using a dutch auction bidding sytem.
Put down the crackpipe, and step away from the computer.
An auction will be used to sell space in the East River. This will raise enough revenues to prevent it from being torn down as was proposed earlier.
What's a "Dutch Auction?" Is it related to Dutch Courage?
Hope it has nothing to do with a Dutch Oven.
Behind teh Dutch Door.
where there are multiple of the same thing for auction. For example there are 3 items, all the same. starting price $1. 3 people bid $1 each, the price for each of them is $1. Now a another person puts a bid for $2. Now that means that one of the people will lose their item and the new guy will get it for $2 while the other 2 for $1.
No, everybody will get it for $1. Everybody gets it for the lowest bid on the high bidders list.
Now if two more people bid, one $3 and the other $5, then the two $1 people are bumped off, leaving Mr. $2 on the bottom and the current price at $2. When $2 is bumped off by a $10 bid, the winning price goes up to $3 and so on.
Okay. Thank you.
Who's going to tear down the East River?
I think someone has been exposed to too much East River Water. Perhaps you drank some?
Unfortunately not. But my auction system will let people drink and maintain their patch of water. In addition, they get to keep it when the river is elevated.
Where the East River intersects with other bodies of water, do you think it should be elevated above them, or tunnel beneath them? Or do you think the East River should be elevated throughout?
Does the crack you're smoking have a good taste? Sometimes crack doesn't have the smooth taste crackheads have come to expect.
*****
Crack is for losers. The gaol sentences for powdered are lower.
Jail time may be lower for coke, but which is more fun? :-)
*****
Also try smoking dry banana, it is as good skag.
We can't justify the expense. A simple series of locks and gates with three color traffic control while suffice at all intersections.
The East River is ill-named, for it isn't even a river.
Shhhhh!!
Yeah don't start that all over. You'll have to explain hard concepts like MOUTH and SOURCE.
I propose a stack interchange with the Hudson River and New York Bay, a diamond interchange with Newtown Creek, and a jughandle with the Harlem River. For the Long Island Sound extension, use a service road/diamond interchange system for connection with the bays on both sides, and a major stack interchange with the Connecticut River.
:-) Andrew
Where the East River intersects with other bodies of water, do you think it should be elevated above them, or tunnel beneath them? Or do you think the East River should be elevated throughout?
It doesn't get enough ridership to merit any service whatsoever, especially as it deprives some people going to midtown of a one seat ride. It should be reduced to a single track shuttle (running every 24 minutes), then torn down after 5 years for lack of ridership.
There has to be some kind of limit on the number of nonsensical threads you can start in a short period of time.
The subway seat thread was SERIOUS.
I don't want to admit that I actually thought that the variable fare might work, but I still believe in a variable toll.
I think someone needs a day at the beach.
Beach? He needs the Funny Farm
No, I need the Manor Animal Farm.
No, I need the Manor Animal Farm.
For those who can read the crossout.
Like I said, the Funny Farm. Orwell's piece worked about as well as the USSR.
I propose we have a new subway car the R179 which will operate normaly on tracks and then have blow up pontoons to cross the waterways of NYC (East River, Uppder Bay, Newton Creek et.).
I just read the June 2002 NYCTA Committee Agenda and it said that the TA can run a one track shuttle between Brighton Beach and West 8th Street but do not want to do it because it will cause too many problemms during rush hours
So why can they run a shuttle train and extend the B-68
The hell with the Riders
Thank You
In addition to the extension of bus route B68, a rush hours-only shuttle bus is to operate between Brighton Beach and Stillwell Avenue, along the route of the extended B68 (and making B68 stops).
Thank YOU :-)
David
Couldn't they build a crossover before the train(S/B) enters West 8th street
The track will probably only be sued to get trains into and out of the yard.
The track will probably only be sued to get trains into and out of the yard.
The track will probably only be sued if someone decides to go to sleep on it.
... and would probably win $14,000,000!
--Mark
Saw a Picture today of what Stillwell will Look like after Reconstruction,It will be the best looking station in the system.
Strong rumor is W also will get cut back to Bayparkway in January
if the supports are as bad as they think. Seems that when they took down the N platform the whole station was weakened more than they thought it will be.
Wowsers ... from over 3000 miles away, Unca Fred gets his revenge. They messed with his SeaBits and now the whole thing's gone dodgy. He'll be amused to hear that. :)
What no trains at all to Coney island, when was the last time that happened?
1863 or somewhere around there? I saw the station this past Christmas and well ... it does need to do the redbird thing and drop in the ocean. From what I saw of the artist's renderings though the replacement will be well worth the wait ...
See how rumors get started and things that are said become gospel?
The W (West End) will run to Stillwell Avenue during the entire duration of the shutdown (which starts September 8). It will skip around the facility, using whatever platform and tracks are available at the time. The reason the Brighton Line won't have a train shuttle (a bus shuttle will run instead) is that only Track #2 will be available to Brighton trains, and it will be used for put-ins and layups.
David
The "strong rumor" is 100% wrong. The W will be the ONLY service at Stillwell Avenue for 18 months, but it WILL be there during those 18 months (with the possible exception of some late night and/or weekend GOs, of course).
David
If there actually IS structural engineering consequences of the current demolition, then the TA is in dangerous straits should the el collapse as a result of that weakening. Back in the old days, structures were designed to remain intact or be condemned as a whole. While there's been no FACTS presented, it IS a possibility of the civil engineering standards of the time that the structure may in fact have been weakened by partial demolition.
Knowing the TA as I do from prior experience, I'm sure it's being studied and evaluatated ... but it IS possible that if damage HAS indeed been done to the structure, that the poster may be correct in the assumption that service may need to be cut back for the safety of the "public" ... no offense to anyone, but subtalk "facts" and a token WILL get you through the gate ... :)
Wonder if it's real though ... after all, it's on the internet, must be true. Heh.
The W will be the ONLY service at Stillwell Avenue for 18 months
There's some kind of historic justice to that, in that Stillwell Avenue is the site of the original West End Terminal.
Oops I was wrong, did not read far enough, there will be trains to Coney island
Hard to believe it's been 34 years since Phase 2 of the Chrystie St. connection went into effect. Essentially here's what was different:
The new 57th St. station at 6th Ave. opened, as did the Houston-to-Delancey tunnel connection.
The original KK made its debut along with the QJ. The JJ and RJ were dropped, although the RJ may have been killed earlier.
The B began running 24/7, to 57th St. during non-rush hours and to 168th St. during rush hours. It ran express along 6th Ave., but only during rush hours initially. The TT late night/Sunday shuttle was dropped.
The D began running express along 6th Ave. 24/7, which it still does to this day.
The GG was extended to Church Ave. during rush hours, and at the same time F express service from Jay St. to Kings Highway was inaugurated.
I was in the city on that day, too. My mother and I went out to LGA to meet my aunt, who flew in from Chicago to see a production at the Met in Lincoln Center. She stayed at the Lincoln Center Motor Inn, although we would have gladly put her up at our house. She still doesn't understand why she opted not to stay with us. I rode on the 7 for the first time that day, from 74th St. to Times Square, so that we could transfer to a n/b 1 to 66th St. In those days, there was no free transfer from the IND to the IRT and BMT. That afternoon, we went up to the Bronx on a speedy R-32 D train. Made the CPW express dash look easy.
Hard to believe that 34 years ago I was 16.
Hard to believe that 34 years ago I was....errr... well I didn't even exist yet (Not even in my mom's tummy yet either!)
I was married almost a year 34 years ago today
Glad you can remember that far back old man. What did you eat for dinner that night?
What day, my wedding, It was Prime Rib, Potatoes, I had a RUM AND Coke, and then to LAX for a PSA flight to San Francisco. Oct 1 1967
Good Post Steve, dug it monstrously.
:-) Sparky
I need to get to St. Barnabas Medical Center, 200 South Orange Av, Livingston NJ for a two day course next week that starts early in the morning. I can arrange to be in Bayside or the Bronx the previous night (family and friends to put me up) - so I can reach Penn Station or Hoboken and I don't start my trip in Philadelphia.
Recommendations for travel?
there is bus from penn sta in newark in that run to the hosp.
I think the NJ Transit Bus #73 connects Penn Station Newark with St. Barnabas Hospital - check www.njtransit.com. The South Orange Bus #31 may also connect those two points, but getting a schedule for the #31 is close to impossible.
Thank you - so I'll use PATH to Newark and then #73.
The following info comes from the St. Barnabas Medical Center web site:
"Bus Information: For a New Jersey Transit Bus #73 schedule, please call 1-800-772-2222. For a South Orange Bus Company Bus #31 schedule, please call (973) 242-1577."
If you can get any info on the #31, it may help you, as not all of the #73 buses go to the Medical Center.
Thank you for that very helpful post.
1948...Straphangers face the first fare hike, as the subway's original 5 cent price is jacked up to 10 cents.
Peace,
ANDEE
At least they got the r-10 on the road, first, shortly before asking for more money. :)
According to Mister R-10, William Padron, the first R-10s entered revenue service in November of 1948, about the same time the IND Fulton St. line was extended to Euclid Ave. So the 10-cent fare had already taken effect by then.
The Subway's went to a dime, while the Board of Transportation buses
and trolleys went to seven cents. Was the 5 cents transfer from
surface transit to rapid transit instituted the same day? It was
two cents from rapid to surface, then all went to 15 cents, if memory
serves correctly. I was only a lad then.
;-) Sparky
The transfers were introduced the same day as the fare hike. Also, they softened the blow by instituting the first interdivisional (BMT-IRT-IND) transfers that weren't based on line abandonments. Before then, if you transferred from the IRT to the BMT at Times Square, say, you paid another nickel.
The transfers between bus and subway were discontinued a couple of years later (an interim fare hike) then all fares went to 15 cents (except a couple of oddities) in 1953. The fare didn't rise again until 1966 (20 cents) but they absolutely gutted the system to hold the fare for those 13 years.
So somewheres I have this little gizmo that can hold a bunch of dimes. Actually, it held a bunch of little subway tokens. 'What do you want for your thirty five cents...to live forever?' From the crew of Marx/Engels/Lenin, a very Happy July 4th. CI Peter
I remember those. My dad bought them to keep tockens separate from dimes, since they were so nearly alike in size.
I've still got mine. It holds 9 tokens, so you would buy 10, use the first one in the turnstyle and put the other 9 in the holder. Keeps a week's worth of rides in a handy little holder.
I just saw one of those for sale on eBay the other day, still with three of the "Y" cutout tokens inside. If you hurry, it may still be on there....
Say, I have one of those token holders. Bought it from one of those station vending machines. It even has a few of the old 20-cent tokens I hadn't used up.
I remember using one of those token holders when I was in High School (took the subway every day from Brooklyn to Stuyvesant HS in Manhattan, on 15th St. near First Ave. in those days).
-- Ed Sachs
The Subway's went to a dime, while the Board of Transportation buses
and trolleys went to seven cents. Was the 5 cents transfer from
surface transit to rapid transit instituted the same day? It was
two cents from rapid to surface, then all went to 15 cents, if memory
serves correctly. I was only a lad then.
Also the turnstyles were removed from Brooklyn's 6000s Streetcars &
its PCCs.
;-) Sparky
Turnstyles in the trolleys? That must have been amusing. Never knew.
Kevin,
On the single ended cars in Brooklyn, there was a turnstyle right
behind the Operators position. If & when you make it to Branford,
a member located one of these turnstyles and it awaits instalation
on BQT PCC 1001 > the grand daddy of all PCCs. <
;-) Sparky
Your amongst a few of the "Sub Talk"ers out there who still remember when the subway fare was just 5 cents.
#3 West End Jeff
Not me. The nickel fare was before my time.
Peace,
ANDEE
My folks remember the 10-cent fare. When they came to the States in 1949, they stayed in the New York area for a week or so before heading on to Indiana, and my father's cousin took them for a ride on the subway one day, putting a dime in the turnstile for each of them.
I know the fare was 15 cents in 1965, but have very little recollection of it. I may have noticed a "Tokens, 15c. How many, please?" sticker on a token booth at 36th St. in Brooklyn of 34th St. in Manhattan. I remember the 20-cent fare very well.
My mother still remembers the 5 cent fare from when she lived in the Bronx and took the IRT Jerome Ave. line into Manhattan. Of course she rode on the IRT Low-Vs that ruled the now #4 line at the time.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember the 15c fare, though I must have ridden on the train with my parents for a dime.
My father used to live up on 68th street or some such place. Building Radios was his hobby, and he'd WALK to Radio Row (You all know where that was, right) to buy parts. He said he could not see paying 10c (5c each way) to by a part for 2c!
Elias
The earliest fare I remember was I think $.75. I think then it went to $.90 I guess that was in the early 80's. BTW, what is the history of the fare, and dates...$.05 to $.10, etc?
I remember 1948 for a far different reason. My Dad took my on the subway a lot that year because I loved it so much, but there was another reason. This 8-year old baseball fanatic (my Dad's fault) was in a bummer because his two favorite players, Dixie Walker and Eddie Stanky has been traded to the Pirates and the Braves. It was really a bummer, plus the fact the Dodgers were in a rebuilding mode and we had to watch some unknowns like Snider, Hodges, Campanella, Erskine and Roe now play for my then team. Thinks did turn out all right, though. Didn't they? And when Stanky became a Giant in 1950 I developed a genuine hatred for the little bastard.
And now the Dodgers are in 1st place(Not for long I hope) and where are the Mets?
Flushing their season down the toilet.:-( So what else is new?
Stanky was sold to the Braves after a contract dispute with Branch Rickey. Leo Durocher always sided with the player during any salary dispute, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, regarding his tenure with the Dodgers. That and the fact that Rickey wanted Jackie Robinson to play second, which would have made Stanky expendable.
Walker was traded because he made it clear he would not play on the same team with Robinson.
Rest assured Dodger fans felt the same way about Leo when he went over to the Giants as well as Stanky.
So Fred, when did you go to Ebbets Field for the first time? You already know about my first trip to Shea - it was on your wedding day!:-)
You went to Shea for the first time on August 1, 1970? That's amazing. We are blood brothers of a sort. Good show. I went to Ebbets Field a couple of times reluctantly with my Dad in 1945 and 1946. It was in 1947 on Memorial Day that I went with enthusiasm to watch the Dodgers lose two to the Braves. From then on I was a fanatic. After that double loss it was very very rare when we went to see the Dodgers play and watch them lose. They seemed to win just about every time we went except once or twice as I remember. Even when we went to the Polo Grounds, it would be the Dodgers beating the Giants. And you are a hell of a baseball fan. Your facts are absolutely accurate. But as a kid I had no inkling why Walker and Stanky were traded. I just liked them. If I knew what I later knew I would have said good riddance. Jackie became the heart and soul of the Brooklyn Dodgers and I think from 1949-1952 he was the best all around player in baseball.
Did you happen to be at Ebbets Field on August 31, 1950? Hodges hit four dingers that day against the Braves.
How about the Dodger Sym-phony or Hilda Chester? Do you remember them?
Oh BTW, were you watching that Mets game on ESPN a week or so ago when they zoomed in on a marker sign in the left field upper deck? That's the spot where the late Tommie Agee's monster home run made contact on April 10, 1969. That was one of the longest home runs ever hit at Shea. They say it would have gone well over 500 feet had it not been for the upper deck. I'm not sure if the ball was still rising when it struck that spot.
---the Braves--- any other dinosaurs out there who remember that would have been the BOSTON Braves, I'm almost positive anyway. The mve to Milwaukee came later.
Braves moved about 1953.
...to Milwaukee. They then moved to Atlanta in 1966.
On March 17, 1953, while in the middle of spring training and still wearing their red, black and white caps with a thick "B" on it, the Perini Brother announced that they were moving their Boston team to Milwaukee. I think the new caps arrived two days later. The Braves moved up from last in attendance in '52 to first in '53. They also moved up from 7th place (in an eight team league) to second that year. The Brooklyn Dodgers had probably their most lethal team that year, winning 105 games, trouncing the Giants 15 of 22 times, and won the pennant by 13 games. Alas, they lost the Series to the Yanks again, four games to two. Two years later they won it all but, ironically, their team was not as good as the '53 team except for the great middle and late relief pitching.
The Braves drew 281,000 for the entire 1952 SEASON! The Rockies would draw that much for a four-game series with the Giants or Braves in 1993 and/or 1994 when they still played at old Mile High Stadium. Alas, the honeymoon is over in Denver. Attendance has been declining year by year. Even so, the Rockies are still looking to draw 2.8 or 2.9 million this year.
>>> Jackie became the heart and soul of the Brooklyn Dodgers and I think from 1949-1952 he was the best all around player in baseball. <<<
You make the same mistake so many have made. What you really mean is he was the best all around player in the major leagues. There were a lot of great players you never got to see.
Tom
We know about the 10-cent fare.
It went up to 15 cents on July 25, 1953;
to 20 cents on July 5, 1966;
to 30 cents on January 2, 1970;
to 35 cents in 1971;
to 50 cents in 1975;
to 60 cents in 1980;
to 75 cents in 1981;
to 90 cents in January of 1984.
Not sure about the $1.00, $1.10, and $1.25 fares. It's been $1.50 for the last few years, anyway.
$1.50 since the fall of 1995.
6 1/2 years and counting. The last time the fare held steady for that long was back in the days of the 15-cent fare. At least we don't have deferred maintenance now.
>>> The last time the fare held steady for that long was back in the days of the 15-cent fare. <<<
Well, 1904-1948 was a little bit longer for a steady fare.
Yeah, and ask anyone who rode the subways in the 30's and 40's what they thought about the maintenance. I remember when I was a kid nearly 50 years ago (yes, I'm over 50 but I didn't KNOW about the subway until I was 4/5 or so and broke a tooth on a pole in a LoV owing to a BIE) that the common impression of the subway was that it was noisy and FILTHY ... even the windows were never hosed down and your "Sunday best" would get ruined by all the dirt on the subway ... then there were the "winos" (see? Some things NEVER change) ...
>>> the common impression of the subway was that it was noisy and FILTHY ... even the windows were never hosed down and your "Sunday best" would get ruined by all the dirt on the subway <<<
Wait a minute, the subways just reflected the rest of the city. I could take a shower, put on a white shirt and tie, and within an hour there was black ring around the collar without going near a subway. This was mainly due the ubiquitous Con Edison coal burning generating plants, and the many buildings which still burned coal for hot water, heating, and industrial purposes. The interior surfaces of the subway cars, and places to sit on the platforms were dusted by each rider, so they were not the cause of clothing getting dirty except for the occasional wad of chewing gum left on a seat, and you knew darn well not to lean against a pillar in a station, or touch an exterior surface of a rail car which was grime a 1/4 inch thick. The subway platforms had more litter due to the vending machines and places to buy food within the stations, but dirt did not leap from the surfaces to cling to passengers' clothing.
Tom
Hahahahaha ... You DINOSAUR! :)
And let's not forget the wonderful, bunderful outputs of all those apartment building's INCINERATORS whereupon, the Sanitation department (Department of Street Cleaning (DSC)) would come and LITERALLY "haul your ashes" ... ah, how good we have things these days and NOBODY notices ... we used to take our trash and literally throw it in the woods by the side of the road up here where I am and today, you get fined $500 if a bottle ends up amidst the papers ... while I'm all for it, for those who didn't know the "before" ... what a change in 50 years.
But the "IRT" was ubiquitously known as "filthy" among OUR parents, for better or for worse, for fact or for subtalk. :)
Ah, but the banning of the incinerators was the main reason for the roach & rat problems the city has today.
Good point ... and probably accurate. But hey, nowadays you can notice that fresh Canadian air (kaff kaff) where you wouldn't have years ago. I tell ya, those are two phenoms I don't miss upstate. And like many who have left the city, we managed to bring eggs from the little beasties with us upstate. That winter, we broke a pipe and the house froze. Ended their reign. :)
I remember July 25th very well. We just had moved into our new apartment in the Woodside Housing Project the day before, and I remember reading how the Braves had pummeled the Dodgers that night. The Dodgers wound up winning that Saturday and swept a double-header the following day (Sunday). We were accepted into the middle income apartments and it was just before we were scheduled to put a down payment on a house near Patchogue, Long Island. My brother and I were real disappointed we couldn;t get our own house, but my father promised us it was only temporary. The next year we moved to California.
I moved around that time to my new apt in Van Nuys from Baldwin Hills Calif, while my folks moved toFox Hills to a smaller apt. It was around the end of July
1993 it went to 1.50 from 1.25.
$1.50 in 1995. I was working at Woodhaven/Jamaica at the time. I was pleading with customers there to buy their tokens on Sunday to avoid bedlam on Monday. A lot of people thanked me for it!
Radio Row is now Ground Zero.
#3 West End Jeff
I didain the fact, but I do remember the nickel fare. Also I remember
traveling with Mom to visit cousins in Yonkers. Taking the trolley
at 242nd Van Cortland Park, paid the fare, then when the car reached
city line the Operator walked thru the car with a hand held fare
collector and obtained an additional 5 cents to cross the city line.
The fare may have been ten cents, but they still collected the
extra nickel to egress the city.
;-) Sparky
I vagually remember the 5 cent fare, but do remember the 10 cent fare, and when they changed to tokens in 53. I still have a couple of those someplace around
Once upon a time I would sometimes get a few of those small tokens at work. Somebody found them and wanted to cash them in. I think he value was $.20. I would buy them saying they were worth more. I paid $.30 each for them. At one time the small tokens were used for children's fare at the Transit museum at Court St. I forget the price of the regular token at the time. But for children it was 1/2. So I figured I'd get $.50 or $.60 for it. After I had collected 5, I went down there to cash them in. Unforunately when I did, the turnstiles had changed over to something with AFC. I still have the tokens at home sitting in a jar with most of the other tokens I'ce collected from transit.
Ok guys, I remember the five cent fares. I used to pay it for my Dad when we rode the trains. I thought it was a big deal that I would ante up the nickel. I do remember I used to get twenty-five cents a week allowance. Yes, that was ages ago, but remember a movie cost six cents on matinee Saturdays, a cup of coke was five cents, pop corn the same and an ice cream bar was seven cents. A quarter went a hell of a lot farther back then.
Back in my days as a sub teacher, I used to tell elementary kids that hamburgers at McDonald's used to cost 15 cents. Talk about being shocked!
Well I had a funny way of remembering the price of a token when I was a kid, it worked until fairly rescently. When a token was $.75, the cost of a slice of pizza was $.75 When the token went to $.90, pizza was $.90. The same with $1.00, $1.25. I really haven't payed attention if it was ever true for $1.50, as I hardly ever buy just one slice of pizza now (how much is just one slice?), and buy metro cards for the subway. But it worked when I was a teenager and was watching my pennies more......
STORY about a ride on Amtrak.
Peace,
ANDEE
One little nitpick ... Amtrak does NOT stop at Albany. It stops at Rensselaer in this area. Joe Bruno thought that his decayed little city is more of a garden spot than Albany and MUCH more significant to visitors - while Amtrak DOES go THROUGH Albany, it doesn't stop here.
But yeah, that's the experience, and thanks to CSX, getting TO New York City isn't all that important so one needs to plan on getting there whenever the freight fairy feels the urge. ESCAPING NYC though is usually pretty close to on time.
Glad someone managed to ride *our* subway though even if they got the location of our local stop wrong. :)
Heh....probably he intentionally said Albany instead of Rensselaer. The mere thought of that towns most famous resident makes many of us city folk see red. Bruno=Pussbucket.
Peace,
ANDEE
The train dosen't stop in Albany or Rensselaer. It stops in Albany-Rensselaer. When the station was moved the cities went through a conceptual merger and it is only a matter of time until it becomes official. Other conceptually merged cities are Abseacon-Pleasantville, Dallas-Fort Worth, Hammond-Whitting and Minnipolis-St. Paul.
Ummmm ... Mike old buddy, you need to get to the nearest Betty Ford clinic ... seriously. Albany and Rensselaer is like the Hatfields and the McCoys (and the river is narrow enough to lob grenades) ... there's no merger except in the mind of Joe Bruno ...
And pass that doobie over here. :)
Out side of the actual cities, everyone knows them as Albany-Rensselaer. Train timetables, bus timetables, airline timtables, broshures, forms, maps, etc all refer to Albany-Rensselaer. It is only a matter of time before the cities put aside their differances and become the Albany-Rensselaer Capital Metroplex
"It is only a matter of time before the cities put aside their differances and become the Albany-Rensselaer Capital Metroplex."
Albany and Rensselaer can unify if they want to (or not if they don't) but for God's sake don't let them call it the Metroplex! Bah!! on ANY use of the non-word "metroplex"!!!!
The "Albany" part was usurped and "Rensselaer" although across the Hudson from Albany is not, and will never be combined with Albany. To give you an idea of how BOGUS this whole thing is, the (ahem) "CITY OF Rensselaer" has a total population (2000 census) of 7,761! Only by the grace of Senator Joe is it STILL a city since the qualification for a "city" is a population of 100,000 or more. Even Albany doesn't make the numbers, but is close.
But don't hold your breath waiting for Smallbany to combine with Joe's hosers anytime soon. They may have a new ballpark and a deluxe new train station that hasn't opened yet, but Rensselaer is nowhere and we want no part of it. :)
He's STILL running unopposed. You'd think a city with political interests would have some cash for someone to run against the punk. He ain't done nothing for upstate either, just his own little trailer park county. And they're bleeding jobs too. But he OPENED his personal baseball stadium at YOUR expense. And he's STILL running unopposed!
NYC is $5 billion in the hole, but Bruno opened his personal ball park in HIS NAME a couple of weeks ago ... nice, eh?
How about you run?
I'm being quite serious here. Why wait for another politician to pop up, one who's just slightly less corrupt then this current assbag?
Well, the problem is that Kevin prefers to earn an HONEST living :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. I did 12 years of gubbamint service myself. Enough was enough. Besides, Senator Hairdoo lives across the river in Trailerpark county. I wouldn't be eligible since I'm (fortunately) not in his district.
But yes, I'm MUCH happier now not having to smell the sausage being made daily. :)
At least it's comforting to know that ALL politicans are scum, and not just the ones where I live :-)
Oh, some of ours would feel right at home in Mississippi or Louisiana. In fact, some would scare the good old boys. "New York may have the best crafted laws, but they also have the most juice." That's a quote from a former Senate Majority leader who wore a gawdy loud tie and a green jacket on end of session day. Once upon a time, I actually got paid to sit around the capitol with a camera waiting for that. :)
GA laws are more loopholes than laws. Everything the scum do in office revolves around making sure they profit off of anything and everything passed and proposed. They can't be bothered with trivial things like the well being of the citizens. There's a $2 billion highway being proposed by the governor, which NO ONE supports except the GDOT, and mosts his campgain donors for this November just happen to be land owners close to the proposed highway, who would just happen to make millions off the construction and rising land values if the road gets built. What a concidence! Stories like these appear everyday in our newspapers. I think the voters are finally getting fed up. I hope EVERYONE gets voted out of office.
How'd you sit around like that everyday? If I had to watch the GA legislature everyday, by the end of my first week, I'd bust out the Uzi and take care of business :-)
I'd love to ramble on but this ain't the place. I'll leave it this ay though - I got paid to put up with it, and whether we like it or not, "transit" is a profit center for politicians. That's the reason why I bring up the political angles as often as I do, hoping to make people understand that commuter rail, subways and even Amtrak are POLITICAL entities and ultimately, it's the sausage packers that we need to motivate. As to the corruption, well ... way out of topic for subtalk.
But what we all love and hold dear is constantly under the thumb of politicians and that's where we need to focus to get what we need/want out of mass transit. Know that politicians are chickensheets and when they see citizens bearing pitchforks, it gets their attention. I'd better leave it here.
Well, yesterday I started using up all the vacation and other time I had left towards terminal leave in the NYPD starting 7/31 towards eventual retirement. I will be a civilian on Sept 30th. (Although the guys at work have a pool going as to the exact date I will change my mind!) For the past 21 years I've been using my shield to get on the trains. Before that there were only tokens so I either used tokens or hopped the turnstiles. But in October I will have to buy my first metro card and learn how to use it. I will have to learn the terminology too as I still think to swipe is to steal.
I will also be looking for a job. Although the pension is excellent (that's why I'm retiring) it still isn't enough to pay my Nassau County taxes & mortgage and save for my son's college. I would love a transit related job however NYC Transit is out ((or any job with a NYC or NYS pension) because of the stupid double dipping laws.
I guess you will see me on line more often!!! I mowed the lawn 3 times the past 2 days!!!!
You should apply to become a transit worker or a worker on the MNRR/LIRR. Sort of like a golden years fantacy camp getting paid to do a job you would probably do for free. Even better, you would get an employee pass and still not need to get a Metro-Card.
LIRR/MNCR employees are unfortunately not entitled to free transportation on NYCTA services and vice versa (but this is often skirted around), so even if he were to gain employment with one of the Commuter Railroads, he would not receive a MetroCard.
True.
It seems bizarre, though, since all agencies are part of the same MTA "umbrella." Can't we all just get along?
Gone are the days when RR's would honor each other's pass as a courtesy.
Actually since they are part of the Federal Railroad Retirement Act it is NOT double dipping. However I hear its not too easy to get a job with them. Also Jersey Transit is an option. Too bad operating at Branford is only voluntary, I would move to East Haven if it ever became a paid job!!!
You could try working for a freight railroad. Just kiss any time off for your self goodbye.
Hey good luck with that. I didn't realize you were an officer, thanks for protecting us civilians for all that time.
I can see where "swipe" would be troublesome. How about "slide and ride" instead? :-)
You could always follow the path trod by many retirees in search of extra money and become a Wal-Martian. On second thought, that ain't such a good idea!
A Metro Card is simple to use. You may want to spring for a card holder. I picked one up at the Transit Museum a few years back.
Congratulations and good luck to you on your upcoming retirement.
(Is your lawn THAT long that it had to be mowed 3 times in 2 days? :)
--Mark
May I recommend a funpass?
$4.00, and you can swipe all day at lots of stations, and even practice "dipping" on buses!
--Mark
I mowed the lawn 3 times the past 2 days!!!!
In that case, why don't you come down to New Jersey and mow mine? It hasn't been cut in almost two weeks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do YOU think Broadway express trains traveling to and from Queens should stop at 49th Street?
They do and there's no other way to route them.
Arti
Sorry, I meant in the future, assuming the Q didn't muck up the express tracks by terminating there.
>>They do and there's no other way to route them. <<
This is not true. There are crossovers bewteen 49th and 57th. Back before the first Manhattan Bridge shutdown, the T West End express always ran up Broadway in rush hour and skipped 49th on its way to Astoria. I believe they switch to local before 49th today because the Qs waiting to terminate at 57th often block the more northerly crossover, though for some reason this wasn't a problem back in the day.
For the three months in 1990 that N trains ran express, they stopped at 49th. Nothing was blocking the express tracks at 57th.
Those are the facts. Facts don't seem to matter here. I'm looking for your opinion, mister.
You heard my opinion yesterday. I'm content here with presenting the facts and allowing others to give their opinions.
IIRC when the N was first extended to Continental Ave. in the mid-70s, it skipped 49th n/b when running express, switching over to the local track just before 57th St.
though for some reason this wasn't a problem back in the day.
From the time that Brighton Express trains started running through to Astoria (around 1955) until Chrystie St opened in 1967, having the Queens express trains stop at 49th (using the crossovers just north of 34th St. station) was the accepted practice.
It started because it was a year or two later that the West End and Sea Beach expresses were extended beyond Times Square to 57th St., but the practice was maintained:
1. Because of the congestion factors noted.
2. Due to the heavy passenger boardings/alightings at 49th St.
-- Ed Sachs
I rode the T many times and it always skipped 49th St during the AM and PM rush in both directions. The T used the crossovers south of 57th St. You also had the N and Q terminating at 57th.
It should because many people from Queens get off at 49 St.
It shouldn't because there's a crossover south of 57 St. that allows it to go onto the express track.
Somewhat close to the topic....why was the crossover before 57 St. station southbound removed but northbound remains?
=)
From the perspective of each of the following three people, how would YOU describe your support of the construction of the 2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands? And which one of the three arguments do you feel the most strongly about?
1) Railfan
2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
From the perspective of each of the following three people, how would YOU describe your support of the construction of the 2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands?
1) Railfan
If connected to Nassau Street, it would finally "complete" the BMT by providing an East Side line for it.
2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
No good, since the the East Side is already built out, it won't enable any more taxpaying development to help pay for it (unlike the Flushing Line extension to the West Side).
3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
Yeah, but we built and moved into all those buildings on the East Side because the City tore down the Els and promised a replacement subway. Now we're stuck paying billions in taxes, and either squeezing on the Lex or crawling on the M15 bus!
If you aren't going to build the Second Avenue, why don't you promise the Flushing Line extension, have developers build buidings and companies and residents move in, and then not build it, forcing them to walk 1/2 mile to 8th Avenue!
Thanks for answering. Hopefully more people will excercise their right to somewhat free speech in this forum and answer my questions :)
From the perspective of each of the following three people, how would YOU describe your support of the construction of the 2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands?
2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
No good, since the East Side is already built out, it won't enable any more taxpaying development to help pay for it (unlike the Flushing Line extension to the West Side).
It could encourage the replacement of East Side residential development by commercial development. At least that's the case from a strictly economic perspective; politically, of course, any wholesale displacement of residents would go over about as well as an al-Qaeda rally at FDNY headquarters. So I'd have to agree that the line wouldn't do much for the taxpayers.
A Second Avenue line might bring some indirect economic/tax base benefits, however. If it were built within budget and in a reasonable time frame, the project might send the message to business leaders that New York is the sort of place that can get things done, that it has the sort of can-do spirit usually associated with Sunbelt cities. That could, in theory at least, make NYC more attractive to businesses and hence will boost the tax and employment bases. The city's reputation as a bureaucratic morass where nothing gets done almost certainly has hindered its competitiveness.
"2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
No good, since the the East Side is already built out, it won't enable any more taxpaying development to help pay for it (unlike the Flushing Line extension to the West Side)."
Obviously wrong.
Property values will increase markedly near subway stations. Maybe not to the extent that they would in "virgin territory" but substantially nonetheless. New York never really finishes redeveloping, and the fact that the East Side is "built out" doesn't mean further redevelopment won't occur. It all depends on how much more desirable those areas become. The effect will be measurably positive, the question becomes magnitude.
"Property values will increase markedly near subway stations."
Maybe, maybe not. We are talking the UES after all, where 5th, Park, and East End have the highest property values because they are quiet peaceful avenues compared to Lex and 2nd.
I've never heard anyone say they'd love to live on the UES if only the subway service was less crowded.
( 2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
No good, since the the East Side is already built out, it won't enable any more taxpaying development to help pay for it (unlike
the Flushing Line extension to the West Side).")
"Obviously wrong."
You are disagreeing with the Mayor, the former Mayor, and the Director of Strategic Planning at City Planning, not with me. They say that the development spurred by the Second Avenue can't pay for it, unlike the Flushing Line. I say that the development caused by the PROMISE of the SAS has already paid for it many times over, and now the MTA ought to deliver.
There are, of course, plenty of development sites for high tax luxury housing in East Harlen and the Lower East Side. Politically, however, the less said about this the better.
"You are disagreeing with the Mayor, the former Mayor, and the Director of Strategic Planning at City Planning, not with me. They say that the development spurred by the Second Avenue can't pay for it, unlike the Flushing Line."
No, I'm not. I never said that the Second Avenue subway would spur sufficient development on the East Side to pay for itself (though development will occur and rents will rise - look at every study ever commissioned on the subject). That is not a legitimate reason to oppose it.
Bloomberg opposes it in part because he wants to pursue the 7 extension to Javits first - and he can't prove that this extension will pay for itself through development either (but I agree that this new subway extension should also be built. I think it's a great idea).
As to the previous Mayor, he said a lot of things.
You ended up misinterpreting what I said, and taking city politicians' remarks out of context.
Bloomberg opposes it (SAS) in part because he wants to pursue the 7 extension to Javits first - and he can't prove that this extension will pay for itself through development either
I'm skeptical too. You could have the best imaginable transit connections to the Javits Center, but that won't change the fact that the facility is just too small for today's mega-conventions. Any extension of the 7 should be coordinated with a significant expansion of the Javits Center.
I suppose the 7 extension could spur more development along the western end of 42nd and adjacent streets, but it looks as if the area has become more heavily developed in recent years even without decent subway access.
My opinion: the 7 extension may not be a wholly bad idea, but it doesn't come close to the SAS in priority terms.
Agreed.
Construction of a 7 extension will spur expansion of Javits and more development on the far west side.
SAS comes first, though.
The decision of the U.S. Olympic Committee on the 2012 Olympic site selection, and of the IOC on the final decision will probably end up being the deciding factor in the 7 extension west.
If they both go for New York and the West Side Olympic Stadium plan, than the 7 extension west becomes the major priority for the MTA (and unlike any other new subway project, this one would come with a manditory don't-embarrass-the-politicians-and-business-leaders deadline of Spring, 2012).
If the USOC turns down New York (they seemed impressed with their visit on Monday according to the Daily News, but owner Mort Zuckerman stands to be a big winner if the West Side site is picked, so there may be some hype here), or if the IOC rejects the bid (given Europe's attitude towards the U.S. right now, a better possibility), then the focus would shift away from the 7 extension and hopefully to the SAS project.
The factors you mention are certainly important.
1) Railfan
It would be nice to see a new subway line open In New York
3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
Getting people off the 4, 5 and 6 is good enough reason
Everyone's commenting on an abstract line, not on specifically "2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands" (i.e., a two-track line with no provision for future expansion to four-track local-express service). Anyone?
DUMB. Four Tracks are Needed, And the Express needs to be extended north of 125th Street to Fordham University via THIRD AVENUE!
The Local needs to turn west on 125th Street and end at the HUDSON RIVER!
Elias
But should the entire project be cancelled because of that?
My take is that it was designed wrong. Given the funding available, it should have been designed as a two-track line squished under half of 2nd Avenue, with the other half left vacant in case more funding becomes available later to build another pair of tracks. Stations should have been places where we would ultimately want stations on a four-track line, or some subset of them -- the ones in the current plan are too far for adequate local coverage but too close to have additional local stations inserted.
Getting back to the question I raised, I don't know. On the one hand, we need something. On the other, shouldn't we put the money we have now in the bank and save up for what we really need?
Four Tracks is the best, but if it is not doable, I'd do two tracks. But I'd be DAMN SURE to have a provision for extending the line along 125 to the Hudson River, AND for continuing the Subway up Third Avenue to Fordham.
Given the station spacing on the proposed 2nd Avenue line I would not be all that upset if it remained a 2 track line with all trains making all stops.
Just get the dang thin in and MAKE IT GO!
Elias
"My take is that it was designed wrong. Given the funding available, it should have been designed as a two-track line squished under half of 2nd Avenue, with the other half left vacant in case more funding becomes available later to build another pair of tracks. Stations should have been places where we would ultimately want stations on a four-track line, or some subset of them -- the ones in the current plan are too far for adequate local coverage but too close to have additional local stations inserted."
OK. To that end I would propose a double-deck design, with platforms on one side only. Upper level northbound, lower level southbound. Connecting it to the 63rd St bellmouths would take a little doing, but that's why chief engineers make the big bucks.
When money appears for a third and fourth tracks, another double-stack would be added, with platforms on the other side. Then the direction of travel would be rearranged.
All these stations would be express stations. If additional local stops were needed, they would be upper-level platforms. Similar to how parts of the Lex work now.
With all the talk about the 2nd Ave subway taking the crush off the Lexington Ave Subway, Where could I transfer from one to the other in case a train breaks down on one?
125th Street is the only common station planned (at present).
No other transfer point?
Not on the part to be constructed.
If only the "stubway" is built, then the trains will go west at 63rd and take either the 6th Avenue or 7th Avenue/Broadway line downtown. The transfer point from the 6th Avenue would be Bleecker Street (I understand it will become a full transfer point); from the 7th Avenue/Broadway line it would be 14th Street.
If the Second Avenue line goes south beyond 63rd, it is far east of Lexington until it gets far downtown -- I didn't check the plans for that.
Well, in a pinch, you could get out, walk two blocks and hop on the other service to complete your trip.
What makes this easier is that 2nd Av subway service' stations will all have escalators and elevators. By the time this new subway opens, a lot more Lex stations will have them too.
Ron's idea makes sense. By the time the subway opens, you'll have to use a metrocard anyways. -Nick
Not all MetroCards are unlimited.
If they decide on the Nassau STreet alignment, I guess there will be the current connection at Cahambers St-Brooklyn Bridge. I think Nassau will be the best choice, as the line basically connects with every other line already there at almost each of it's stations.
53st LEX (E,V) cab be connected. I think you can put one at GCT, 3rd avenue on L line and some more downtown.
Do a doublestack as exactly on the LEX. Leave the bottom express empty and the top as local.
Agreed, but I am assuming only half of the double stack can be built at a time. Thus the west (or East) doublestack gets built first as described above, and then the other half when budget permits.
They will never get around to building the other stack. Build a four track line and get it done right the first time.
OK. Do you have your checkbook handy?
Right, do want a novelty subway/ no one will use it if it has only locals. And PREY that it won't have proprietary eqipment.
"And PREY that it won't have proprietary eqipment. "The LION will get your prey!
Pray tell, it will NOT have propritary equipment because it will exchange with the Queensboro at 63rd and with The Broadway also at 63rd, and probably extend into Brooklyn via Nassau, or mayve the bridge via Christie.
Now My MYRTLE AVENUE EXPRESS *will* have propritary equipment, as it will have speeds of upto 75mph on its NON STOP EXPRESS RUN between Jamaica Center and Downtown Brooklyn! : )
Elias
"Given the funding available, it should have been designed as a two-track line squished under half of 2nd Avenue, with the other half left vacant in case more funding becomes available later to build another pair of tracks."
There isn't enough room under Second Avenue for a four track alignment.
You have a conflict with the Second Avenue sewer main that runs up to 111th Street. While the tunnel will be of TBM construction, the bore is not that deep to avoid foundations, other subsurface utilities, and piles. The additional cost would be substantial and might preclude any construction.
I agree that provisions for expansion to a four track alignment should be provided. However, it would have to be an over-under approach similar to the uptown Lexington Avenue line.
You could build certain stations, designated as express stations, with an unused lower level.
MATT-2AV
There isn't enough room under Second Avenue for a four track alignment.
It's a lot wider than Broadway between 17th and 34th, yet the BMT managed to fit a four-track line there.
You could build certain stations, designated as express stations, with an unused lower level.
But the currently planned stations are too far apart to make for good local stations on a four-track line.
Its just a different era.
The tunnels will be of TBM construction, making the diameter wider than the on-center spacing of columns in previous cut-and-cover four pralell track alignments.
Local residents are far less willing to put up with the construction, noise, and disturbance associated with underpinning their buildings.
Codes have certainly changed, although I'm not sure to what extent this would affect shoring, underpining, etc.
Second Avenue must remain in service.
Subsurface utilities occupy the eastern half of the avenue in the uptown region that, mile per mile, may be almost as costly to relocate as building new tunnel.
So from sidewalk to sidewalk there's more room, and yes, a cut-and-cover four track tunnel would fit, but times have changed, and there's a need to do this as efficiently as possible.
MATT-2AV
Have the Utility companies reroute it or they will lose their franchises. You can also say the it is for Utility replacement so you will have new, clean, better, versitile, All wheel drive utilitys.
"Have the Utility companies reroute it or they will lose their franchises. "
Utilities such as Power, Telephone and Cable are not the problem, they can be moved very easily.
The Water Mains are more of a problem, but the biggest utility (outside of the suybway itself) is the sewer line. And if you thing the sewer company is worried you are full of sewer efluent.
Elias
Damn, I smell alot of *HIT. Litteraly.
No, seriously, the sewer main that runs up second avenue to 111th street, where it makes a sharp turn to the east, is such an obstacle that it literally has forced the two track alignment over to the western side of the avenue in the uptown region.
Sewer mains, which are fragile and must be maintained in service for obvious reasons, are extremely difficult to move. Sewer mains such as this aren't pressure conduits, and operate by gravity flow.
The NYC Bureau of Sewers maintains a perimeter around their mains so that you cannot build within a certain distance on, around, or under them. Many are on piles as well, making it difficult to excavate under the bottom of the main.
Water mains are relatively easier to relocate because they are pressure conduits, and gravity flow need not be maintained.
MATT-2AV
If the sewermain had to be moved, the new line would have to be built first, and then each customer switched over to it. Eventually, even sewer mains have to be replaced.
I saw the main on 31st Street: It was deep, lined with bricks, had water flowing throught it like a river, and this was only a branch line on 31st St. Imagine what a main must look like as it heads down? second avenue to the treatment plant.
Sewers can and do have lift stations. (A Lift Station in Fargo was recently named for Dave Barry who had peeved the city in a recent column... He was here for the dedication, so apparently all was in good fun.) to raise the efluent to the aflunet or whatever level is required for it to be useful to the politicians.
Elais
I saw the [sewer] main on 31st Street: It was deep, lined with bricks, had water flowing throught it like a river
Trust me, it wasn't water that was flowing.
"If the sewermain had to be moved, the new line would have to be built first, and then each customer switched over to it. Eventually, even sewer mains have to be replaced."
And it is that very process that would be extremely costly and time consuming.
The sewer cannot simply be placed anywhere. Second avenue presents a narrow, three-dimensional corridor. The subway and other utilities occupy a substantial portion of that. So does the existing sewer main which must be kept in service. Open channel, quiescent gravity flow must be maintained, thus restricting the vertical placement. There is no room along the way for a lift station, plus the extreme NIMBY objection in such a congested area as the Upper East.
The sewer actually doesn't flow directly to a treatment facility. Instead, it makes a sharp turn to the east at 111th street and flows to the Manhattan pump station. The pump station is disguised as a beige, 2-3 story brick building, adjacent to the FDR. Flags hang outside facing the river, and an odor will greet you on certain high flow days. You will notice a clustering of manholes in the FDR outside the building. This pump station sends the flow, via a force main located at elevation -380, to Wards Island. There is a corresponding structure in the Bronx, which you can find by traveling along a line exactly 90 degrees to the Manhattan force main uptake on Wards Island.
The sewer under second avenue could not be made much deeper, as the pumps at the Manhattan Pump Station have a limitted lift, and it is physically impossible to draw up fluid more than 34 ft.
MATT-2AV
"The sewer under second avenue could not be made much deeper, as the pumps at the Manhattan Pump Station have a limitted lift, and it is physically impossible to draw up fluid more than 34 ft. "
So, the NIMBYs are correct, the project *is* full of s#it?
: ) Elias
If the sewer main for the whole East Side is on Second, and that is the utility that is most difficult to move, perhaps it would be better to put the subway on 3rd, at least south of 59th Street.
Or 1st.
There was a major push in the late 60s to put it under 1st Ave, on the grounds that this would better serve the majority of riders. For most of Manhattan from 125th down to Houston and below, there is quite a bit of territory east of 1st Ave, so 1st Ave would better "split the difference" between Lex and the river.
I never understood why this was rejected. It seemed so logical.
For the same reason the 63rd St line is under 63rd and not 64th - Rockefeller University and other research institutions complained that their instruments would suffer from vibrations due to construction.
Recall that this was back in the days of cut and cover and mine-and blast.
perhaps it would be better to put the subway on 3rd, at least south of 59th Street.
Mind reader!
3rd Av would also have much better connections to other lines - hook up to 63rd St, then stations at 57th-60th Sts (N)(R)(W)(4)(5)(6) [3 tracks, 2 island platforms], 50th-53rd Sts (E)(V)(6), 42nd St (4)(5)(6)(7)<7>(S), 32nd-34th Sts, 23rd-25th Sts, 14th-16th Sts (L), Cooper Square (5th-7th Sts), Delancey St (J)(M)(Z), then hook up to the North Side of the Manny B.
Turn the Chrystie St Line into a terminal, abandoning Grand St and building a new station with a center platform at Delancey St, with a X-crossover just North of it.
The following 6th Avenue Services would have modified Southern Terminals:
(B) Delancey St
(D) Coney Island (via Culver)
[(F) transferred to 3rd Avenue Line]
(V) 2nd Av (as previous)
The 3rd Avenue Line would have two services:
(F) Hillside - Queens Express - 3rd Av - Brighton Local - Coney Island
(T) 57th-60th Sts - 3rd Av - West End - Coney Island
Of course since the sewer issue has already been taken care of (the Second Av subway already partly exists in segments which will be kepyt and used by the TA, and the EIS have taken utilities into account) this discussion is moot.
The ideas brought up about 3rd Av are interesting.
Subsurface utilities occupy the eastern half of the avenue in the uptown region that, mile per mile, may be almost as costly to relocate as building new tunnel.
I believe that Second Avenue has fewer underground utility lines than the other main thoroughfares, which was intended to make it easier to build the subway. Of course, the city's full of water and maybe sewer lines that pre-date the first SAS proposals in the 1920's, and undoubtedly there are some under Second Avenue.
Don't forget that some utility relocation was accomplished in the 1970's when the tunnel segments for the 2nd Av line were built.
That work need not be repeated.
...but it was a great point and I hate to be a nay-sayer.
So you add additional local stations in between.
The truth, like all things in life, lies somewhere in between.
MATT-2AV
"From the perspective of each of the following three people, how would YOU describe your support of the construction of the 2nd Av subway as the plan currently stands? And which one of the three arguments do you feel the most strongly about?
1) Railfan
It would be very entertaining to witness the construction of a beneficial new line in Manhattan.
Some may object to the fact that the subway will be of TBM construction with no express tracks. I have always maintained that four tracks are better than two tracks, but two tracks are better than no tracks.
2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
I am an East Side IRT commuter, so there is a conflict of interest as my quality of life would improve with construction of the new subway.
Many object to construction because it won't benefit them directly. If we were an anarchistic confederacy of individuals and not a society, then this would be warranted.
3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
The crush loading on the Lexington Avenue lines is unacceptable. No other line: a) is as overcrowded, b) has less capacity for expansion of service, and c) benefits so many.
Hence the reason that the second avenue subway is NYCT's marquis project -- no other project receives as much attention.
Extension of the cross-town IRT, which I also support, would be second.
MATT-2AV
"Many object to construction because it won't benefit them directly."
Many from outside New York perhaps. There is virtually no opposition of any kind to this subway within the city. In fact, most NYC taxpayers overwhelmingly endorse it.
""Many object to construction because it won't benefit them directly."
Many from outside New York perhaps. "
Actually, improvements within a city, such as New York, do affect us (in North Dakota) directly!
If it brings better prosperity to the city it lowers welfare rolls, it allows prosperity, to buy the food we grow and the beef we raise. There will be more of a market for our wind, so we can package it up as electricity and ship it to you on a wire.
Our prosperity is tied to people buying the things we grow! If you can't pay top dollar for our nice wheat, then we will have to ship it overseas for the best price we can get for it.
You see, prosperity is a shared thing. You get good jobs, we sell more food, we can buy more tractors, detroit can buy more food. We grow as a nation, or we go down the tubes as a nation.
Elias
"You see, prosperity is a shared thing..."
I like that quote.
MATT-2AV
I like that! I hope your neighbors feel the same way.
Actually... We send Republicans to the Statehouse to keep our taxes down...
And Democrats to Washington to get all we can out of them!
: ( Elias
Interesting combination....
"Interesting combination.... "
Yes, especially considering that North Dakota (especially from the 30s to the 50s) was the most SOCIALIST state in the union.
We still have and operate a state owned flour mill, and a state owned bank.
Elias
>We send ... Democrats to Washington to get all we can out of them!
If that's true, thank you. (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
1) The Railfans on this board have described that accurately.
2) NYC Taxpayer - overwhelming support. NYS taxpayer - some hostility if I'm from upstate; strongly supportive in the city, Westchester and Long Island.
3) Commuter - need you ask?
> 1) Railfan
As a railfan, I would be all for a new Subway line to explore!
> 2) NYS/NYC taxpayer
I would be glad that my taxes would be going to something useful.
> 3) NYC Transit rider/commuter
It would be extremely useful. I'm all for it.
Naturally, I feel most strongly as a Subway rider.
- Lyle Goldman
Good answers!
Thank you.
- Lyle Goldman
Well as a railfan myself it is always a pleasure to see a new train line up and running, means one has to joyride. As an employee it means yet another interesting line to work on and see from an insider's view, and interesting to see what equipment will be used for it. As a taxpayer it will be money well spent if the line is built in it's entirety, not as a stub running along 2nd Avenue only from 60th Street (joining up with the N,R lines) or 63rd (F) to 125th Street. As a commuter view as long as the line it completely built from Uptown to Downtown, it will be a big alternative to the crunch time on board the Lex Line. As for 4 tracks I think they should make it 4 tracks because with only 2, and the delays caused by people soon to pack on this new line's trains, the 2 tracks will mean no way around delays, and it won't end up being any better than the Lex line as far as being a load reliever. And 2nd Avenue line riders will have the option, of course, of having express and local service to choose from if the line is 4-tracked. Well right now let's see what happens whenever they decide to resume the construction work, then let's view what is built and how eventually it is run. It's too early to call anything.
At 10:00 PM tonight I heard a report on ABC radio about an Amtrak train hitting a car at a grade crossing. I think the report said that it was somewhere in Florida.
If this had been a PhilTrak train, 20 people would now be dead.
If this had been a plane, all the people would be dead now.
Planes don't hit cars at grade crossings.
Better was the story out of (Alabama?) where the Darwin candidate was so involved in her cell phone conversation, she drove THROUGH the lowered gate before her unceremonious creaming.
-Hank
Yes; it was Arkansas and she was doing 75 mph when she smashed through the crossing gate and the Texas Eagle hit her broadside in the driver's door. I wondered whether the person she was talking to on the phone heard the train whistling for the crossing before the conversation abruptly ended.
What gets me though, especially with respect to the title of this thread is how SOMEHOW, it's the TRAIN'S fault. The words "Amtrak accident" just suggests that somehow Amtrak did it ... that's what always gets my goat. I'm curious as to how it affects others and causes the "Darwin" comments ... knowing many who have greased someone who many of us think "deserved it" such is NOT the way the poor sap in the cab takes it, and has to deal with it for the rest of their lives while in the meantime, the lawyers SUE the "driver" of the "death train." Just ain't right.
I know barbs have been traded here and there when rail people get angry that some dumb moron put themselves into the situation in the first place, knowing the realities on all sides and those who feel that every life is precious, ESPECIALLY if they're a victim of something, even if it's their own neglect that got them killed.
Maybe it's time to have this issue out amongst ourselves, but the title REALLY got my goat. It suggests that AMTRACK is somehow at fault for what happened, and just like the clueless media who constantly expell "TRAIN hits car" without ever asking "What the HELL was that car doing there in the FIRST place?" ...
See where I'm coming from here? Why is this AMTRACK'S fault?
Because it is AMTRAK's "fault" that a stalled car in a crossing got smashed. The Train Operator should have seen 2 miles down the road to see a car stalled in a crossing and slowed down to avoid a collision. It doesn't matter if the car went around the flashing barricades to cross before the train came and stalled halfway thru. The Train Operator should have seen it ahead and slowed down in time.
I know as well as you it is not that way. But a defense attorney will say someting like that in his opening remarks in court assuming it wasn't settled beforehand.
Consider there was a woman in another thread who won $14 Million from TA because she was hit by a subway train while supposively sleeping on the roadbed in the tunnel. It doesn't matter she shouldn't have been there on the roadbed in the first place. She was hit by a train. It doesn't matter if she doesn't remember how she got there, or why she was there. She was hit by a train and she should get the money. It doesn't matter if 30% of the incident was her fault. $9 Million is still a good piece of change. She was hit by a train and she should get the money.
Juries these days are easily swayed by emotional arguements from defense attorneys and figure AMTRAK and TA are always somehow at fault for anything that happens to a customer. And that they have money coming out of their wazoos and can easily part with a few million dollars with no trouble.
Excuse me, I don't feel too good. If I throw up on the platform, I should be $50,000 easily
I'll find in your favor. Dunno about the other 11 ... but yeah, this whole "scene" makes me ill. I'm ALL in favor of an ACTUAL victim, who through no fault of their own, has a piano drop on their head, but when a railroad gets blamed for someone who CLEARLY violated the laws of trespass get a huge cash reward, then I feel like grabbing for my gun. Whoops, don't have one. But you get the point.
I *wish* the railroads could countersue for trespass and damage to equipment, emotional pain and anguish for the crew and SCREW the morons out of their future income to pay off the INNOCENT in their stupidity for what the moron in a car or the moron who lays down on the tracks, or subway surfs and falls off the tail car cost the innocent CREW who had to live the rest of their lives with the stupidity of those who taunt Darwin and think they'll elude it all.
Amtrak may have its problems, but the wording of this additional unjustified crucifixion of the route of the pointless arrow just irks the crap out of me. It'd be different if the BLE brother was drunk, stupid or otherwise responsible for what happened. There's been some of those (Union Sq wreck as an example) but most of these "train hits X" things are NOT the BLE brother or sister's fault. THAT bothers me.
By the way, anyone want to venture a guess as to WHY Amtrak is strapped for cash? Oh no, let's not go THERE ... CSX has bad track? Guess who has to pay?
We do because Amtrak does, and Amtrak gets their money from us (via the warmongers [aka Congress] and via our paying their fares)
And CSX gets priority when THEIR trains are on the ROW. Screw 'em....passengers come first, fork the cargo.
Sorry...I've had a bad day, and I'm sitting in a 115 degree room w/o AC. And I still have to goto work for chrissakes...
Stuart
Disgruntled Paralegal
Because Amtrak belongs to the feds, and the feds have deep pockets for the accident victims. I wish I could be on the jury for this retard. Of course, I'd be knocked of in voir dire.
-Hank
I like this post
I agree with you that the title of this thread is a poor one. To be honest, I could not think of how to word it so that the real perp is clearly shown to be the culprit. Any suggestions for future situations? Maybe we can develop a standard title that will be picked up by the media and put the blame where it belongs.
Car blocked off train, Train got some damage from car, passengers not hurt on train.
Car Loses Race to Grade Crossing
That make people feel the pain of the car.
Car Loses Race to Grade Crossing
Actually, it was a tie.
How about Phyrric Victory, since the car must have been on the crossing before the train arrived there, right? Unless they impacted corner to corner.
"Grade crossing fatality" might be a start. Then the explanation of what the moron(s) did to get themselves greased perhaps ... don't want to make this "politically correct" but "Amtrack accident" does suggest that Amtrak did something untoward ...
I have to agree. First off, if the train was going at a relatively high speed...it MIGHT take longer than 2 miles to completely stop, even in BIE, okay....so the car and the dumb driver would have been totalled and dead anyway. Case *!@#$ closed.
Stuart
Very disgruntled paralegal.
How bout just, "Car Tresspassing, struck by train?" The railroads were, in all likelihood there before the road, and as such shouldn't the railroad only allow the cars to cross when the gates are up? Kinda like an unwritten contract, the railroad basically owns the crossing, but allows us to use it until such time as they need it. The gates being down, the lights flashing, or the horn blowing are all signs that the railroad now needs the crossing, and moving yourself onto the railroad, in a vehicle or as a pedestrian, is trespassing.
If somebody is hit, the railroad should say, "Bull!@#$, he was trespassing, tell him to pay his own bills," and go on with it's business, no more of this "Evil Death Train" that the media seems to be enamored to, if you are on the tracks when you can see a train, you are clearly in the wrong, and it is no different from running a red light.
Sadly the railroads will never grow a backbone and push back at the lowly trial lawyers that are slowly bleeding them dry, "victims" of such incidents will continue to recieve compensation from the railroads, merely because the railroad has "Deep Pockets," yeah sure there may be money there, but do they ever stop and think that maybe that money might be better spent on improving the right of way, perhaps lowering the transportation costs of a given item? No, those people are filled with nothing but greed, shortminded and simple, they let their emotions overcome them and strie out at whoever was to blame (other than themselves), there should be laws against this kind of garbage, but as I said, there will never be.
"Struk by train" makes the train seem bad.
Actually, in this incident, wasn't the grade crossing unprotected?
Does unprotected mean no gates, or no gates and no flashing lights?
Yup. Crossbucks only.
Amtrak doesn't own an INCH of track down in Florryduh ... it's CSX land, home of the "I ain't gonna pay a lot for this intersection" ... ain't AMTRAK'S fault. CSX has a LOT of unprotecteds. Much cheaper that way.
Florida DOT decides what level of protection is appropriate for each grade crossing. The one in question was in the category of anticipating one collision every 16 years, so nothing more than crossbucks ("STOP LOOK AND LISTEN") was warranted based on their cost/benefit analysis.
Out here BNSF removed many such crossings (many private crossings... ie farm or tractor roads) Some were removed, and the farmer might have to make a 5 mile round trip to a county road in order to cross from one field to another.
One county road was relocated by the Railroad because the road was in the way of a grain shipping point, and they did not want to break up the trains to keep the road open. You can still use the original road if you want to, but the railroad is under no obligation to keep the crossing clear, and is free to park a 100 car grain train across it all day long if they want.
CROSSBUCKS *are* protection. They tell you "Watch your dumb ass, 'cause a train might be coming!"
We have had kids run through a lowered gate, and right into the side of a moving train.
Elias
It's NOT AMTRAK's fault either way because motorists must give ROW to trains at grade crossings anyway. Now why do people ignore these simple rules of the railroad?
Unless if the engineer did not blow his horn, then it's not entirely AMTRAK's fault.
The engineer can blow his horn till hell frezes over, cars with closed windows, airconditioning, and thumping LOUD music...
NOT TO MENTION HE FACT THAT SHE WAS GABBING ON A CELL PHONE!
render the horn sound ineffective.
What is needed is those retractable steel barriers (protected with flashing lights and submarine klaxons) that they use in federal buildings. Raise that sucker before the train comes and just let them slam into that!
Elias
I did see a crossing arm with a steel jacket (like a pipe) with concrete and rebar in it. On a test a pickup drove into it at 60 mph and it bounced back not getting on the track.
Great idea, but who pays for it. CSX won't, Amtrak has $$ worries (see various Dave Gunn threads), states aren't gonna, I suspect BNSF won't either.
Suggested title for Media: "Driver ignores warnings, is hit by train."
Happy Brithday USA!!!!!!
I've been thinking about it, and I don't thing that they could cost much more than conventional crossing gates. Heck it would cost the state much much more if they had to build overpasses.
Elias
Planes hit flocks of gease. There is also a growing problem of crashes due to poor traffic control on the runways and taxiways. Many taxing planes cross the runways at grade and there are little or no controls to prevent catestrophic acctidents.
The 'catastophic' has occured only once (Tenefrie). Most runway accidents kill no one.
It wasn't a pretty sight
dang, color?
There are a dozen places on the net with 'after' shots of the carnage. The worst ever airliner accident (deaths), worst ground accident (death, cost), and worst airliner collision (death, cost).
In case you couldn't infer from the drawing, a KLM 747 ignored or misunderstood instructions from the tower, and attempted to take off with a PanAm 747 directly in its path. The collision killed more than 500 people.
-Hank
It does not take mile to stop an airplane taxiing on the apron.
Elias
From AP
ORLANDO - A New York-bound Amtrak train hit a car at an unguarded crossing Monday, killing two people in the car.
No one aboard the Silver Meteor No. 98 was hurt when it hit the car about five miles south of Orlando, and the train didn't derail, said Lt. Chuck Williams, a spokesman for the Florida Highway Patrol.
Three people were in the car. Their identities weren't immediately released.
The train's last stop was in Kissimmee, about 10 miles south of Orlando. The train was heading to New York from Miami.
Orange County Fire Rescue said 126 people were on board, but Amtrak spokeswoman Kathleen Cantillon said there were 129 on board. She said the number was tentative, and she didn't know the breakdown between passengers and crew.
(Note: Three in car, two killed. What happen to third one? Why does the number of passengers on the train matter? What about the engineer? Was he OK? Was he able to continue the run?)
No, the engineer can't continue the run. Federal rules require drug and alcohol tests. He gets a few days off with pay, and if he desires, counseling.
-Hank
Whichever tower controls the interlocking at 96th has been having a field day sending SB 2's down the express. While waiting for a NB local at 72nd at about 11:30 this morning, I saw a 2 followed by a 3 followed by a 2 on the SB express track (is that a real live battery run?), with a 1 on the SB local somewhere in the middle. Then this evening (around 7:30, after rush hour) I was on a SB 2 from the Bronx that came into 96th on the express track. As usual, no express was switched to the local track to fill in for the local that ran on the express track.
Every map released by the TA since 9/19/01 and all the updated station signage treats the 2 as a local. It obviously isn't a local in the mind of the TW/O's, and they're the ones who control where the trains actually go. The maps, signs, and schedules should be updated to reflect the reality. Then there's at least an inkling of a chance that the scheduling guys in Brooklyn will eventually notice how dismal the service per capita on the local really is.
The number of scheduled locals on the line I've seen go express in the past 24 hours exceeds the number of scheduled expresses on the line I've seen go local in the past 24 years, barring GO's and emergency reroutes (in either direction).
I feel your pain, fellow West Side IRT'er. Cry if you have to. It is healthy to let it out.
>>>It obviously isn't a local in the mind of the TW/O's, and they're the ones who control where the trains actually go.<<<
TW/Os do not control where trains go. They only do what they're told. Train Distpatchers and Ass't Train Distpatchers make the decisions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for that ... such was always the reality. Back in the '70's when marker lights ***OR*** that bright orange, purple, robin's egg blue or navy LETTER that you could see from two miles away before they shrunk the signage on the point of subway cars, the tower operator always held the MOTORMAN responsible if they got a bad route.
Why? Because the motorman was responsible for setting the proper "cab side and opposite" lenses. If the motorman gave them wrong, you'd get what you SIGNED for on lead cars with markers only - and they'd grab the lead and/or tail car numbers as you blew past their bay window and where you were going to cover their butts. If you "got" a wrong lineup, they had your markers recorded. It was easier for the tower operators in the days of FULL window-sized COLORED route signs in the "spaghetti colors" ... they could spot you even farther off. If you had markers that didn't match an available route at the upcoming homeball, they'd drop the ball on you and you'd better have a good explanation as to who you were and why you had "foreign markers."
That's why years ago, the FIRST thing a motorman did when boarding was drop the panel and CHECK the glasses first, THEN the rollsign. Then we'd open the cab and setup. Trainmasters could overrule the tower operators and send a train to where no train has gone before, but the tower operator's job has always been "spot the train, yank the levers" ... that's it. That's also why today still, no possibility of a wrong lineup and why wrong lineups are never GIVEN, they're taken.
Just figured I'd fill in the history for that rule since there's probably many these days who never saw and appreciated what a simple and RELIABLE method the TA once worked within. Another reason why I'm dumbfounded by how the system works THESE days. Once upon a time, we were ALL in the SAME army and we all watched out for one another and had simple, effective means of keeping the railroad running. Agggh.
I wonder what Frank Corral would be thinking today. He'd probably be calling everybody sissies and say they don't know how to run a railroad.
Heh. There are times I'd be inclined to agree. But it isn't like the folks in there now aren't TRYING to keep the tradition of running a railroad going ... too many chefs nowadays and too many study groups and lawyers ...
Thanks for the correction. I learn something new every day. Where are the TD's physically located? Do they interact at all with the public?
TDs and ATDs are usually right there in the tower, not far from the TW/Os.
Peace,
ANDEE
Which explains why I got them confused.
Do they mind if random strangers wander on up and knock on the door to discuss train service?
Which tower controls that interlocking? The one at 96th itself?
>>>Do they mind if random strangers wander on up and knock on the door to discuss train service?<<<
Generally not, it depends on the individual and how busy they are.
>>>Which tower controls that interlocking? The one at 96th itself?<<<
I am not familiar enough with the west side IRT to answer that question.
Peace,
ANDEE
Depends. If there seems to be people working at 96 St Tower, then they are controlling it in all likelihood. If no one's home, it is being controlled by Times Sq.
Like, I mentioned in a previous post, something must have somewhere in the Bx that caused those two 2 trains to go express. 96St controls that interlocking during the day, Times Square fills in on the midnights. Trust me, TD/ATD dont send trains down the express to spite/hurt people.
No, the one I was riding in the evening was held up to let a 3 slip in at 135th, and then we got to 96th as a 1 was approaching, so we were send express. (The C/R even announced that we'd be going local and then had to correct himself.)
If our 2 had gone in front of the 3, we would have gotten to 96th before the 1, so we would have gone local. Then the 3 would have pulled in across from the 1. It would have been just perfect.
Almost every time I've ridden the subway in the past week (and it's been a lot -- I just got through with a well-used 7-day unlimited), I see a 2 on the express track somewhere, usually southbound. (For a change, northbound local service is more reliable nowadays.) These aren't freak occurrences.
I don't think malice is the reason. Cluelessness is more like it. The TD's and ATD's probably don't have passenger counts in front of them (why would they?) and think of the local stations as quaint little local stations that no one uses, not as some of the busiest stations in the system. The 2 may travel between the Bronx and Brooklyn, but most of its passengers don't leave Manhattan.
Heh, yesterday, they were routing at least 4 or 5 2 trains up the express during the day.
Up as in northbound? Those I didn't see. What time?
Around 11 AM to noon.
Interesting. That's around when the NB 3 I was on got to 72nd just as a 2 was pulling out across the platform. It was while waiting for the next local that two 2's went by on the SB express. It looks like at least six 2 trains ran express between 11am and noon. The 2 runs at about 7.5 tph (each way) middays; this means that, during that one hour, no more than 60% of 2 trains made the stops they're all supposed to make.
if the 2 trains are late for whatever reason they get sent express,its as simple as that.if they're on time they go local like their supposed to.
Various photos I took on Sunday with my new camera. Range is 60k to 170k.
Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
SORRY, links fixed.
Various photos I took on Sunday with my new camera. Range is 60k to 170k.
Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
Particularly liked #4 ... all the nice little toasters on wheels, laid up and sleeping for another day. :)
heh heh...thanks
Just to test my skills, I'll attempt to identify the locations of each of these photos.
Photo 1: IRT South Ferry terminal
Photo 2: Looking south from the (L) platform at Broadway Junction
Photo 3: The southbound (L) platform at B'way Junction, the exact same spot where this photo was taken. (That's me next to the train.)
Photo 4: Looking into the adjacent yard from Broadway Junction.
Considering I'm a non-New Yorker, how did I do?
-- David
Chicago, IL
nice digital camera ! what make & model is it ??? nothing like shots of
railfan window equipped rail rolling stock !!!!!!
LOL LOL LOL !!
If that's the blue line, why do the cars have a yellow stripe?
-Hank
Because the geniouses at LACMTA decided that the Blue (and Green) Line LRVS should have the same sorry paint scheme as the buses. At least the Red Line cars have been spared that indignity :P
I took this photo back in April on MARTA and totally forgot about it. Then I just read something on CNN about another attack being planned for the summer and I remembered this photo. Only two days to go.
Where on marta? A bathroom stall? I can't tell what that is.
never mind, your subject says it was "on train." It's late. Time for bed before I make a bigger fool of myself.
That's alright. It was on the back of the seat in front of where I was sitting. Time for me to go beddy-bye also, I got too much BS to do tomorrow :-)
Rob,
It wouldn't hurt to show that photo to transit authorities, just to be on the safe side. God forbid something does happen on Wednesday, lives would be lost. But I'll leave that up to you. -Nick
Dont be to suprised If this weekend R42's start rolling this weekend
on the Q. There were 3 8 car transfers from ENY to CIY this afternoon,They went straight to the barn.
It will be strange to see the R42's out of the JMZL service. I don't remember them anywhere else. The last time they ran elsewhere was before they were rebuilt, and I really didn't pay attention back then.
R-42s have been out of the "east" a few times since rebuilding. They were on the Brighton Line on rare occasion for weekend shuttles, and the Coney Island-overhauled bunch (4840-4949) was sent to Coney Island in the summer of 1999 while the Williamsburg Bridge was closed. But as far as shop assignments go, yes, if R-42s are indeed being assigned to Coney Island Shop this will be the first time any of them have been assigned anywhere but East New York Shop since their overhaul in the late 1980s.
David
Also, briefly they took over the Sea Beach and the R line to 95th Street after 9/11. I also often forget that the M uses the West End every day. I often incorrectly think of the Eastern Division ending at Broad Street.
I didn't count the temporary service changes in 2001 because those trains were on Eastern Division services that were EXTENDED into the Southern Division, as opposed to services that didn't touch the Eastern Division at all (such as the Brighton shuttles).
David
That's true, sort of like the M train runs on the Southern Division, but it's not special because it's an Eastern Division train. Now when the Q starts running with them.......
hey what is going to J,M,Z if R42s leave them? sorry i know it sounds like a stupid question but i havent been keeping up lately. mcd got me workin 40 hours and i havent had much time to post.
Any B Division car except the 75' variety could serve there.
dont be suprised if the R32's go to the J,M,Z.they can run in 8 car sets.it happens on the C so we might see those 32's there soon.and it sure has been several years since they were on those lines.
That may be true, but I doubt that will happen. The only reason the R42's are leaving is because they are being bumped out by the new R143's arriving on the L line. The M will be getting a few also. I seriously doubt they will ship in other 60 foot cars from other lines to the Eastern Division. The Eastern division is getting rid of the old cars, not changing to old cars from other lines. The L should soon be all R143 soon.
I guess that means that they've bumped out ALL of the Slants that were formerly on the "L"...
wayne
Well Wayne, what do you think? Should we sample an R-143 ride on the L this October?
The 42's are being pushed out by the new R143's, as they start to take over the L line. The M line will be getting a few next. The J as far as I know will be keeping their R42's. I think all the R40 slants are off the JMZL, and possibly the R40M's will be gone soon too, although they are mixed up with the R42's. The L will probably become 100% R143, and the M may become half and half.
I agree, it will be very strange not having the R-42's on the L, J, Z, & M Lines, I'll probably get used to it after the full R-143 fleet arrives.
Get used to it on the L; don't get used to it on the J/Z and M, at least not yet. Remember, the R-143 order is for 212 cars. The current L requirement is 168 cars, leaving 44 cars for the J/Z and/or M and for spares/long-term holds/etc. The current requirements for the J/Z and M far exceed 44 cars.
David
9/8, the M is set for weekend OPTO with the new cars. The cars still don't even run on weekends, so there are already enough to run on the M those times.
So, will the Q circle still have the R68's as was intended since the bridge flop?
So, can someone answer my question?
Before the 42's were rebuilt, they were mainstays on the "D" train up until the arrival of the R-68's. At which point, they were given a pre-overhaul paint job which included blue doors (a la the R32) and then transferred to the Eastern Division. Many of these cars were in J/Z, L and M service prior to being rebuilt by M&K or Coney Island.
Mark
I remember the "blue door" R42's in the mid 80's on the M line. The R40 slants were also there with the blue doors around that time, and the red R27 or r30's showed up here and there. I also seem to remember the R42 (along with the R16, R40, R40M, R27-30) covered with grafitti all on the M line in early to mid 80's. Although, I also possibly recall the R32's or R38's with grafitti on the M also. I'm only going by memory, as I didn't know different car types names back then, but do remember the cars.
There may have been a Coney Island R32 here or there on the M line during the early to mid-1980's, but I don't think R38's ever made it up there. The 38's were mainstays on the BMT's Southern Division ( the B, D, and especially the N). Around 1982 or '83, the R38's went to 207th Yard for service on the "A" line. This allowed the slant 40's to be moved from the "A" line to Coney Island Yard for "B" service.
To this day, the R40 was my favorite of all the cars that ran the "A" line. I'm not old enough to remember the R10's which dominated the "A" in the 50's and 60's. And I only rode R9's on the E and F.
Mark
I rode a train of R-38s on the M in 1981 or '82, while I was in high school.
David
I didn't know you were in high school at the same time as me. I went to Grady, from Newkirk. I used to see or ride them all the time on the M, and it seems no one remembers they were there. (many don't even remember the 32's were there)
I began seeing this car that looked like a 42, but some things about it looked older like a 32. Then I caught one on the M local, and it was a short train (proving it wasn't a D). They were on all the southern div. trains (except the still Queens-based N) from mid '81 to early '82. By May, they were on the A.
I could swear I remember riding both the R38's and R32's occasionally on the M when I was in high school back around 1984 or 1985. Again, I really didn't know different cars back then, but I sort of remember some of the trains being ribbed all the way down, and some ribbed only half - the difference between the R32 and R38 on the exterior. But then I again, I can't say for sure. I definitely remember at least one or the other, but possibly both.
You definitely did ride R32's and R38's in that time frame. I remember operating them there.
I remember the R-10s on the A very, very well. It was because of those cars that the A remains my favorite route to this day.
No, they were also on the N for a short while from 1998(1999?)-2000. They were pretty rare back then, but they were still there.
They were on the N and Q Lines.
http://www.nycsubway.org/coney/maint/cimaint05.jpg
I can recall R-42's on the "Q" train about 1988-9 right after the first North Side MannyB reopening. Prior to that, R-42's were prominent on the B, D, M, (Very seldom the J), RR, and QB lines. I hadn't seen an R-42 on the F since about 1975!!!!!!!! Tony
R-42's, not R-40M's?
And why the Q and not the N?
On a related note, I saw two four-car R-68 sets from CIY at Concourse yesterday -- 2728 and friends (signed as a Q) and 2734 and friends (signed as a W).
At least one of them was School Car from Stillwell; probably both.
Car numbers would be helpful.
I bet they're from the Coney Island group (4840-4949).
Are we sure the Q is their destination? "Circle" or "Diamond"? Maybe the N, too?
According to my dog-eared notes, the last UNREBUILT (but graffiti-free) R-40M/42 trains departed Coney Island (Q) for East NY on April 3, 1989. They were used on the L and M lines until cycled through the GOH program. 4840-4949 were done by Coney Island Shops-NYCTA, while the R-40 Mods followed their sister Slants through the Sumitomo plant (now CAF) in Elmira Heights, NY during 1989.
I was up in Elmira last week and they had some Pittsburgh light rail cars buried deep inside the complex. There are probably Washington Metro cars around as well but I couldn't see any. The plant has changed hands several times, most recently being operated on behalf of Adtranz to produce LRT cars for Baltimore and the M4 cars for Philadelphia. However, the R-40s are fondly recalled by those who were there.
Regards,
George Chiasson
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Sure they weren't 40M's?
wayne
They must have been. Before they send the cars off, they change the signs to Q at ENY. I saw a bunch of 40m's like this last week, but not 42's. I guess they're sending the lesser fleets off first.
I am seeing more solid trains of 40m's now. i wonder why they don't just put all of them on the M, so they can just finish at CIYD and stay there rather than having a special transfer move.
I also wonder when the 32's will start leaving. I guess when the shortage at CI is filled.
For any of you who rides Amtrak, you will agree with me that while their dining car fare is exceedingly good, their snack bar food is half a preservitive short of disgusting. Not only that, but the swill they sell is extremely overpriced. I can't blame them for the prices, passengers are free to BTO, but they should at least try to improve quality.
The cafe (or lounge) cars basically serve 3 things. Beverages, packaged snacks and "quasi-entrees".
The beverages are fine, you can't screw up a can of soda. The packaged snacks are fine, a bag of Doriteos dosen't vary too much quality wise. The problem is with the actual "meal" type food selections. What they serve are a bunch of pre-packaged, microwavable, lo-nutrition, hi-fat, lo-taste, industrial food simulants. Its like what you find in a 7-11, only with about 1/3 the quality.
This is completely unacceptable. For most people on most of the non-Hotel type trains, the Cafe car is the only source of food they have for 3-5 hours. After the "food" is heated up in the microwave it essentially has the consistancy and texture of rubber. The stuff is impossible to cut or bite into and it is usually over cooked (as they feel that it is preferable to having a frozen spot in the center).
Some may say, "what do you expect, its just a cramped little snack bar". Well, anyone who says that obviously hasn't been to 37th and Spruce in Philly. Every day I get lunch from a guy in a cart that has the floor space of a bath tub and its reasonably priced and very tasty. He serves the full array of greasy philly food and if your order dosen't involve cooking meat you can be in and out of there in 30 seconds. There are also chineese food carts that for the same size serve all of those chineese foods we know and love. The "mon and pop" couple inside can take an order and put out your food in about 45 seconds. An Amtrak snack bar has about double the space of these street carts and with some equipment re-arrangement and some immigrant guy behind the counter they could be serving REAL food with an attedant who is smiling and happy to serve you (unlike most snack bar folk who look like they are seriously considering suicide).
The big problem is that this service would be so popular that they would probably run out of food midway along the trip. The food is also slightly harder to re-stock and requires a small amount of skill to prepare. Still, it is nothing that coudln't be accomplished with a little effort.
This brings me to proposal #2. What sort of fast food chain makes a wide variety of food, with little capital equipment and in a space that could fit in a Photomat? Here's a hint, they recently surpassed McDonnalds in terms of # of locations. Give up? Subway! Why not just subcontract with Subway (tm) to convert Cafe cars into mini-Subway shacks. All the fixins are in modular containers and the only real problem is the fresh baked bread, but I am sure some consessions can be made and the rolls can be a few hours old and not necessarily served out of warming ovens. Because Subway is all over the place, it would not be hard for a "refill" crew to meet the train at an intermediate station and offload the old fixins and inload the new fixins. Its all modular and all it would require is about 10-15 minutes time on either side of the refill stop. Not only would the food be better and better for you, it would also be easier to carry back to your seat. Currently, Amtrak put your food in this square cardboard thing. You try balancing that all the way back to your seat as the train bucks and sways and you try to open all the car end doors. Subway subs are wrapped up in a nice little bag that is proof against droppage.
Amtrak beats all other forms of transportation in terms of service in every area EXCEPT short distance food. If they want to get people out of cars, airplanes and busses, what better way than to offer a Subway Express restuarant that is accessable for the entire trip.
No I disagree Amtrak Fude was manufactured by UNION LABOR with PRIDE, LOVE and AFFECTION providing jobs for AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!! They are the BEST. It would not be RIGHTOUS to eat any other fude.
I won't TOUCH 'fude'.
-Hank
Is "fude" imitation "fudge"?
No, "fude" is food for illiterates.
Do you have PROFF??? How do you know that FUDE is food for illterates if you do not have PROFF?????
please stop, I'm gonna die from laughter
No no no, nothing is better than eating Cheese-food. It comes in those little sausage/cheese stick things, on the same shelf as the jerky at 7-11. It's a substance that looks like cheese, smells like cheese, sounds like cheese, and tastes vaguely like cheese ... but it ain't cheese.
Then there's this substance called "jerky chew", which is supposed to be shredded beef jerky ... it has the consistancy of fuzz and one of the ingrediants is sodium nitrate (ain't that the same stuff used in fertelizer ... and an explosive?)
After I purchased a little can of it, my friends and I looked at it scratching our heads, puzzled as to whether or not you're supposed to actually ingest it, or, like chewing tobacco, chew it then spit the juice and substance.
But I do love actual beef jerky. Slim Jims too.
Anything with ham has sodium nitrate. Cambells soups with ham have it. Remeber Nitrates are carcinogines. Almost all Hams/Ham product/imitation Ham has Sodium nitrate. It does add alot of flavor. Would you rather have some Mono Sodium Glutatmate (which is "Autolized Yeast Extract")?
>>>Almost all Hams/Ham product/imitation Ham has Sodium nitrate. It does add alot of flavor.<<<
Sodium Nitrate does noth for flavor, it is a preservative.
Peace,
ANDEE
You are probably thinking of Ammonium Nitrate, Sodium Nitrate, or saltpeter is used in gunpowder and as a dietary supplement in prisons and some say, the military as a potency depressant.
Me too.....OMG.........I'm still laffin' muh arse off......
I haven't rode a Amtrak Train is while, How is the Acela Express Cafe Food?
I haven't rode a Amtrak Train is while, How is the Acela Express Cafe Food?
It's the same as the Northeast Direct fude. It's made in the same kitchen. It's made with the same UNION LABOR. It is wonderful.
The Acela Cafe bar design and seating arrangement sux, but we won't go there. These were built by NON UNION LABOR up in some FROG COUNTRY.
AEM7
What I meant was, How does the Food taste on board the Acela Express?
What I meant was, How does the Food taste on board the Acela Express?
I assumed you had tasted fude on Northeast Direct. Well if you haven't, here's some info. The pizza is kind of soggy, since it's microwaved and has been in the fridge. The gourmet sandwiches are actually quite good (turkey and beef) since they are the sort of thing that preserve well in the fridge. Not as good as Au Bon Pain but they certainly do use similar quality ingredients (except the bread which is always stale due to refrigration). The hotdog is like the cheap kind you can get in a 7-11, except the actual dog itself is a high-quality beef dog but the microwave doesn't really do it justice. The snacks are hard to get wrong. The Sara Lee muffins are OK, just like ones you would get in a highway service station, but they can be a bit battered and malformed if they were not handled carefully in the stocking process. The wraps and other gourmet dishes again are made from pretty good ingredients and clearly care and skill had been taken to prepare it, but again the packaging and the storage conditions don't do these fudes justice. Some of the dishes had recently been cut due to the Gunn regime to cut back on amenities. Anyone else care to comment?
You can buy food from the cafe car even if the train isn't moving. Go to Penn Station and wait for a train to come, and buy something, to see what it tastes like without travelling on a train. Most Northeast Directs layover for like 20 mins at NYP. Usually the cafe car attendent can be found smoking on the platform.
AEM7
They don't let you to platform leval without a ticket. Plus there are ticket checkers (screw the sickos of sept11).
go to the LIRR level, and sneak down there. Once, I strolled thru the consist of an AR train, before it departed
Are you saying I should cross the tracks to get to the amtrak platform?
no, you go to LIRR Level (it's the one below the Amtrak area), and you can get onto the Amtrak platforms from there, and the stairways don't have ticket checkers.
I considered doing it once, but never did because I had a backpack on and looked a little unshaven and disheveled - i.e. I felt I looked like too much of a terrorist.
Where are they? I have been in Penn Station and am famillir with it.
Penn Station sortof has three levels below street level.
On the Bottom there are the tracks.
Then a level above that is LIRR Station (to the North East Corner) but on that level to the west there is a passageway that runs to the south, and has stairways to all of the platforms. It appeared to me that this was supposed to be the exit level, so that passengers detraining would not go all the way up to the waiting room and have to fight thier way through a mob of people tryng to get on thier trains. I was under the impression that if you went far enough south on that level you would come to the baggage room but AMTK does not seem to use it that way, but return checked baggate on their tickiting level, so I may be misteaken about that.
The uppermost underground level it the Amtrak tickiting and waiting area, of which you are familiar.
Now I seem also to recall yet another set of stairways exiting even further West on the OTHER SIDE of the eighth avenue subway, and the Iron work there looked very much like the original Penn Station.
does anybody know of this place? Is it still there? Is it open to the public? I think that it is.
Elias
I know LIRR not AMTRAK. It took me 40 minutes to find the AMTRAK area. Also on paper the Station is actually 3 different mezzanies. LIRR and AMTRAK (haven't found NJ Trasit yet)and NJ Transit. And you can only access that train from its railroad's mezzanine.
My biggest rant with AMTK snack service is the lines!
Put Pop Machines in the vestibule of EVERY CAR! That will get the people who only want a cold drink out of the snack car line. Pre-packaged snacks, same thing: vending machines, though maybe only in the snack car this time.
Finally, these bums have a plastic cup on the counter to collect TIPS! Whay the heck should these people be soliciting tips. These are not waiters in a resturant. You don't give the counterperson at Mickey D a tip! These are AMTK employees pulling down union wages and benefits. THEY DO NOT NEED TIPS. Even Dining Car Attendants get paid much more than some kid working in a local resturant.
As part of a restructure of AMTK, I would require signs on all menus, and in all food service cars "TIPPING IS FORBIDDEN" Inspectors finding service staff soliciting tips should terminate them at the end of thie run.
These people are AMTK employees, not kids working through school. They have benefits and a good wage package, and are free to negeotiate with management the terms of employment. The need not be beggars.
Elias
Put Pop Machines in the vestibule of EVERY CAR!
When/how do you restock them? When/how would you collect money? Where is there room? How many revenue seats would you lose if you installed these just inside the vestibule? Where is the capital money that would be needed to purchase these machines? How much is the operating expenses? How would you run a 12-car train with enough HEP load to power twelve fridges full of pop? How do you guarentee that it would be still cold after the machine has sat all night without power at a yard, then pulled for the 06:00 departure?
Finally, these bums have a plastic cup on the counter to collect TIPS! Whay the heck should these people be soliciting tips. These are not waiters in a resturant.
YOU work a Cafe car, then you tell me that we don't deserve tips. How much do you know about the Amtrak unions? Do you think cafe car attendents are in the same union as conductors etc? Do you think these people get overtime if the train is late? Do you think these people get to sleep in their own bed every night?
Even Dining Car Attendants get paid much more than some kid working in a local resturant.
So you're comparing a Harvey girl to some dope who works at McDonalds and accidentally put plastic bags into the deep fryer and tries to fish it out with a carton?
As part of a restructure of AMTK, I would require signs on all menus, and in all food service cars "TIPPING IS FORBIDDEN" Inspectors finding service staff soliciting tips should terminate them at the end of thie run.
I'm not even union. I've never been in an union. I think you should be forbidden from Amtrak trains.
The need not be beggars.
Party hosts who solicit tips from those who are willing to give are not beggars. I regularly solicit tips at various bars and subway stops while providing mass entertainment. Am I a beggar? Do I need the money? No.
AEM7
former GNER cafe car attendent (well for a few weeks anyway)
What does HEP stand for "with enough HEP load to power" and what is it exactly. I have faint idea but...
HEP is Head End Power. AEM7 Is now a complete kook in my book.
-Hank
Isn't HEP a system for distributing power to un-powered coaches (480v) as compared to the old fashined system of having a generator on one of the axels + batterys.
"Isn't HEP a system for distributing power to un-powered coaches (480v) as compared to the old fashined system of having a generator on one of the axels + batterys."
Correct. It comes from the locomotive, hence it is Head End Power.
In days of old, Steam was used to heat and coll the train, and batteries on each car were charged by wheelset generators to power lighting. But that is all they could power.
Modern engines do not use steam anymore, and so Electricity is used for Heating, Lithing and Air Conditioning (also know as the Hotel Load). It takes a lot of power. You will remember that the LIRR used to put a locomotive at one end and a POWER CAR on the other, just to cover the Hotel Loadings.
Elias
what do you mean by "power car"?
The LIRR converted some E7(?) locomotives to power cars. The Looked like a Locomotive, the had a cab in them from which the engineer could run the train, they had a prime mover in them spinning a generator to provide hotel loadings, but it had no traction motors. IT COULD NOT MOVE BY ITSELF!
LIRR practice was to put a GP38 on the east end of the train, and one of thes on the west. When it came at you you might mistake it for a locomotive, but it was only the power pack. the train was MUd back to the locomotive on the east end which is what was moving the train.
The cars in this consist were the old 'world's fair' cars, the last pre M1 MUs bought by the railroad. The traction motors were removed from the cars, but the MU lines were intact. The cars needed HEP because, as former MU cars they had no steam heat or steam powered airconditioning.
And this arrangement made huge savings at the terminals since the trains did not need to be turned.
Elias
Why were the MUs demotorized? Also why would LIRR demotorize some of the the E-7s/
Because they were replaced with something better. And the depowered MUs were better than the old coaches (were these the ping-pongs?) they replaced. I don't recall any E unit power cars, but they did have FAs they used as power cars. A GP38 on one end, which had no HEP, several coaches in between, all through-wired for MU operation, and the FA power car at the other end. Either cab could be used, as there were no push-pull cab cars then.
If I'm not mistaken, some of these cars had generators that provided hotel power.
The power cars were demotored to reduce weight and such. They didn't need two locomotives to MOVE the train. Thing of Amtrak's former F40s, now Cabbages.
-Hank
Yes the had FAs and also E7s(?) that had their original prime movers pulled out, and a new prime mover-generator set assembly (a sled, they called it) installed in its place. The probably used a lot less fuel than the old prime movers which were probably in pretty poor shape by this time. Basically, they bought carbodies that looked like locomotives and used them as HEP Power cabs.
LIRR did have other motor-generator-bar cars, and these could be found on other lines where push pull was not used.
The 'old' worlds fair cars were 1960s vehicles, and were near new when they were replaced on the electric lines by the M1s. The motors were pulled, as was said to reduce weight, and the card placed into diesel service. Yes, many ping-pong cars were replaced by this, though some remained in places such as the Oyster Bay, which was powered by a single MP 15 (at least in the summer when heat was not required, or by the remaining ALCOs when it was.
Elias
"When/how do you restock them? When/how would you collect money? Where is there room? How many revenue seats would you lose if you installed these just inside the vestibule? Where is the capital money that would be needed to purchase these machines? How much is the operating expenses? How would you run a 12-car train with enough HEP load to power twelve fridges full of pop? How do you guarentee that it would be still cold after the machine has sat all night without power at a yard, then pulled for the 06:00 departure?"
The Pepsi Cola Company would be glad to install the machines (no cost to AMTK) they will service the machines at selected stops and collect the money. The will probably even pay a fee for the placement of the machines, although in that case they would likely enough just jack up the price, so I would skip that part if I could. AMTK might like it though.
All needs be done is to remember to plug the consist into shore power when the locomotive leaves it, but they need to do that anyway for the car cleaners.
I do not think that a few pop machines will seriously deplete HEP, but if so then plan new power that has the excess capacity for passenger amenitites.
Elias
Put out the blue prints of the GG-1, and get a power transformer catologue. Or take 3 HHP-8s.
The Pepsi Cola Company would be glad to install the machines (no cost to AMTK)
Not so. Pepsi is a distributor and bottler. Pepsi is not interested in retailing Pepsi. The retailer takes all risks for the retailing operation. Pepsi might be interested in an exclusive contract with a retailer for a small sum of money, but the retailer retains the revenue risk.
The student union here lease machines from Pepsi. They also have to employ their own staff to service it.
All needs be done is to remember to plug the consist into shore power when the locomotive leaves it, but they need to do that anyway for the car cleaners.
Many places where coaches are left do not have shore supplies. For example, in Southampton Yard, shore supplies are only available in the shed and not out in the coach yard.
I do not think that a few pop machines will seriously deplete HEP, but if so then plan new power that has the excess capacity for passenger amenitites.
Let's see. An industrial grade refrigrator is 2kW. 2kW at 480V is 4 amps. 4 amps at 12 coaches is 48 amps. The cables under the Amfleet are rated for 600 amps, so there is plenty of capacity to power just the Pepsi dispensers. However do not forget that the toilets, the air conditioners, etc all consume electricity. Heaters on board an Amfleet could easily be at 5kW or 10kW capacity. That's 120kW for 12 coaches = 250 amps. The Cafe Car alone can easily consume up to 50 amps just by itself. This is some serious power.
The F40's only reserved about 200hp for HEP, meaning the maximum amount of draw that would be allowed is around 150kW -- that's only about 300 amps. 48 amps out of that going to the Pepsi machines, sooner or later your loco is going to start overloading and tripping the HEP.
AEM7
Couple another one on. Also Get a extension cord for the coaches like when the plug (litterally) coaches into the power at GCT.
"Not so. Pepsi is a distributor and bottler. Pepsi is not interested in retailing Pepsi. The retailer takes all risks for the retailing operation. Pepsi might be interested in an exclusive contract with a retailer for a small sum of money, but the retailer retains the revenue risk.
The student union here lease machines from Pepsi. They also have to employ their own staff to service it. "
Not so, not so.
Pepsi offers contacts either way. Yes, the student union can own the machines, and collect the monies. But many pop machines are company owned and maintained.
The pop machine in our lunch room is owned and serviced by pepsi.
The compressors on a pop machine do not run continiously, and can be arranged to run in a staggered mode, so that only one or two machines were actually cooling at once.
The most important reason for having them (besides the fact that I *like* Pepsi, and that I do not like standing in line) is that it relieves the congestion in the CAFE cars, and reduces the lines there for everyone.
Elias
Yes, by 'The Pepsi-Cola Bottling Company of (wherever)', NOT by the Pepsi-Cola Corporation. Pepsico licenses bottlers and supplies the syrup. The individual bottlers do just about everything else, including local marketing (national marketing comes out of Pepsico) The individual bottlers lease the machines to whomever wants to pay. USUALLY, the bottler also services them.
-Hank
"I'm not even union. I've never been in an union."
Well I have been in a union, and I have lost all respect for unions and union jobs as a result of that experience. I worked for Wakefern Shoprite as a Bagger and Cashier for a year, for a little over 10 months, I watched my paycheck be gouged by union dues, initiation, and other assorted fees that our local union imposed upon us. The union also required that all people start at the lowest pay level, work a minimum of 20 hr per week, hard to do when you also want to go to school, and do the all important after school activities that colleges supposedly look for. After these ten months of bull, I decided that I wanted to go focus more on school, and put in my 2 weeks notice. Just two days after I left, the store went on strike, and all that money that had been taken from me was wasted on a strike that accomplished nothing, and merely interuppted the the store's operations slightly.
When I went looking for a summer job this year, I specifically applied to places that were Non-union. Now I am making 25cents less than what I made on sunday (higher pay that day) at shoprite, every day, and that is my opening salary, the store is cleaner, newer, and not union dominated.
Unions may be good for areas where the company can cut corners and put their worker's safety at risk, and at one time they were necessary, but today I see unions as bleeding the US industry, and encouraging them to move overseas. If US labor produces the best stuff, great, but if nothing ever comes off the line, then there is a problem.
The union also required that all people start at the lowest pay level, work a minimum of 20 hr per week, hard to do when you also want to go to school, and do the all important after school activities that colleges supposedly look for.
It's a two-way street. Unions don't want scums like you who take away jobs from the real people who want to develop a profession. College kids shouldn't be taking jobs away from people who pay union dues and are prepared to work their way up to the top. What kind of a scumbag are you? Think you can be a bagger and cashier AND go to college? Let's see how smart you are...
There is a reason I remained non-union. That is precisely because I also went to school, and I never intended to develop a "craft". I intend on getting my degree and entering the workforce that way. I am too impatient to work my way up.
That having been said, unions do have their place. They retain a lot of expertise, they can assist with training on the job, and they maintain a workplace atmosphere where people look after each other, unlike in a non-union outfit (especially bad amongst white-collar office workers) where people are constantly trying to undermine each other. Let me tell you, with all that office promotional politics shit, sometimes I wish I were union and I don't have to put up with this kissing the boss's ass. All I have to do in an union is just do my job and when the elders retire, I would automatically have the seniority. What a great system.
AEM7
That having been said, unions do have their place. They retain a lot of expertise, they can assist with training on the job, and they maintain a workplace atmosphere where people look after each other, unlike in a non-union outfit (especially bad amongst white-collar office workers) where people are constantly trying to undermine each other. Let me tell you, with all that office promotional politics shit, sometimes I wish I were union and I don't have to put up with this kissing the boss's ass. All I have to do in an union is just do my job and when the elders retire, I would automatically have the seniority. What a great system.
I agree. On my last job as a field inspector for an architecture firm, I often worked among union carpenters and electricians out on construction sites. I was the guy who walked around with a clipboard to check up on their work, but I actually had a lot more respect for the union workers out in the field than for my backstabbing co-workers and managers back at the office.
With all the recent scandals involving Enron, Arthur Andersen, WorldCom, and Xerox, not to mention my own experiences working for greedy and/or incompetent bosses at various architecture firms, I've developed a much healthier appreciation for guys who put in an honest day's labor for a living rather than the mealy-mouthed corporate managers and consultants who get away with bloody murder and then leave their employees and investors footing the bill.
I used to think that unions for retail workers was a pretty silly idea -- it's not like they're down in a coal mine or anything -- but then I actually worked retail for a couple years and changed my tune. Now, we've got allegations at Wal-Mart managers are locking their employees inside the strores at night and forcing them to work off the clock. (Of course, when they're on the clock, they're barely making minimum wage with no benefits, with their managers vigorously crushing any attempts to organize.) Yet one more reason I refuse to spend a dime at Wal-Mart. My former manager at Circuit City used to pull the same stunts until I finally told him off one night and let myself out of the store via a fire exit. (Thus endeth my short career in retail.) I'd give anything to send a few dozen burly Teamsters with baseball bats to pay a visit to some of these sweatshop managers.
Of course, there are issues of greed and corruption within some unions, and these need to be dealt with. But in most cases it involves the union leadership rather than the rank-and-file workers, and it doesn't negate the need for unions in the first place.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I used to think that unions for retail workers was a pretty silly idea -- it's not like they're down in a coal mine or anything -- but then I actually worked retail for a couple years and changed my tune. Now, we've got allegations at Wal-Mart managers are locking their employees inside the strores at night and forcing them to work off the clock. (Of course, when they're on the clock, they're barely making minimum wage with no benefits, with their managers vigorously crushing any attempts to organize.) Yet one more reason I refuse to spend a dime at Wal-Mart.
I'm currently reading the book Nickel and Dimed, by Barbara Ehrenreich, in which the author (a well-known essayist and lecture speaker) describes an experiment in which she worked incognito at low-paid jobs around the country a couple of years ago. She did so in an attempt to determine whether women forced onto the job market by welfare reform would be able to survive on the mostly low-wage jobs they'd have to take.
While the book has its flaws, most notably those resulting from Ehrenreich's leftist biases, it does offer some thought-provoking observations and insights. This is true especially of her account of working at a Minneapolis-area Wal-Mart. If we're to assume that Ehrenreich's account is reasonably close to the truth, Wal-Mart appears to be a rather unpleasant place from an employee perspective. Workers simply aren't treated with much dignity, and obviously aren't going to get rich off of the wages they receive. Ehrenreich does not spare the typical Wal-Mart shopper from her scorn, however, as she notes that many toss carefully folded clothing on the floor and let their screaming children run wild. In my favorite passage in the book, Ehrenreich lamented the fact, after dealing with a particularly hyperactive ankle-biter, that abortion had to be confined to the unborn.
You work in a WalMart far from any others, you fall in love with a coworker, get married and one of you gets fired, even if you work in different departments. That was the policy for years, it may still be.
You work in Walmart and one day you wipe that stupid smile off your face and you get fired. You fall in love with a co worker on the job, get married and you're fired. The problem is not restrictions but finding and keeping a responsible workforce at a less than average salary that cannot afford to live within a reasonable travel distance. I'm still learning...TA work is excellent work but the lazy slob next to you gets the same pay...in private industry he would be fire. CI Peter
It's a two-way street. Unions don't want scums like you who take away jobs from the real people who want to develop a profession. College kids shouldn't be taking jobs away from people who pay union dues and are prepared to work their way up to the top. What kind of a scumbag are you? Think you can be a bagger and cashier AND go to college? Let's see how smart you are...
Either my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning, or you have not a clue what you are talking about. NO ONE wants to be a professional cashier. These jobs are 99% filled by people looking to work their way through school. Some of the retail workers unions are decent, others suck rotten meat. I worked for three major supermarket chains. In two of them, the minimum hours to be scheduled was 16hrs per week, with a minimum of a 4hr day (same union local 'A'). In the other, it was 9hrs, with no minimum day (different local, 'B'). Union dues, after a $60 initiation fee to each, were $4 (later $4.50) per week for union A; for the union B, it was $6.50 per week. At the first 'A' job, I started at $4.35/hr, and ended at $4.75/hr. I usually worked 16-24 hours a week between 4 and 8.5 hours a day (8 hour days required a 1/2 hour unpaid lunch), depending on how flexible I was. There were some weeks where I worked 30 or more hours. Sundays were paid at 1.5 times, with the more flexible workers (the ones who took the lousier shifts) getting longer Sunday shifts. At the second 'A' job, I started at $4.50/hr (experience rewarded) and ended at $5.75/hr. Generally, I worked the same type of shifts, with the exception of the special sales, where I worked 60 hours or more (it helped that school was out during this time), and serious work the week of Easter, Christmas, and Thanksgiving.
At the union B job, we worked the minimum hours, usually in 3 or 4 hour shifts. A three hour shift got no break, while someone on a four hour shift may have to take their break after a mere 15 minutes of work. Complaints to the union went no place. Think it was a boss problem? Think again. The head cashier had her favorites. She was union. The shop steward was a grocery clerk who worked overnights. Rarely was he seen by the daytimers. Calls to the union office were unreturned. Complaints to managment were met with awe ("She's doing what? I'm sorry! You should bring this up with your shop steward.") I trained other employees, who wound up working longer hours than I did. We had a cashier who couldn't do simple arithmetic (what's 17 from 25?) I worked there for three months, and couldn't afford to work there any longer. A paycheck in the sub-$75 range, minus taxes and then the $6.50 a week in dues, was just enough to pay for my triangular commute. This union did nothing for its workers. It was useless.
Your comments may apply to trade unions, but certainly not to retail unions. Retail unions are there to prevent employee abuse by the employer. Trade unions are there to find work for their members, and this is what their dues pay for.
-Hank
Some places and states have Union Shops.... You cannot work there without belonging to the union.
North Dakota is a Right to Work state, and no union or employer can require you to belong to a union. Yes there are unions in ND, but you cannot be required to join as terms for employment.
Elias
New York State has "agency shop" which means the union gets your money whether or not you join, so you might as well. (I'm talking public employees union here) If you DON'T join, you're entitled to a partial refund of union money spent on lobbying, but since your wages and hours are set by union contract, you still have to pay.
Some unions are OK, some are bad. I remember a time when I was in Ricky Carnivale's CWA 1101. Screwage to the max for newbies. :)
New York State has "agency shop" which means the union gets your money whether or not you join, so you might as well. (I'm talking public employees union here) If you DON'T join, you're entitled to a partial refund of union money spent on lobbying, but since your wages and hours are set by union contract, you still have to pay.
Interesting. It was like that when I was a student at Cambridge. They forced everybody to join the student union, and the college billed the union dues to your college bill, and if you don't pay up, it's like owing the college $ and therefore they can withhold your degree.
Well as all of you probably expected, being AEM7, I made badges that read "PROUDLY NON-UNION" and wrote many opt-out letters to the college authorities pointing out at great pains that I have no wish to belong to an ineffective student union. It would appear that the union was suckered in by the college administrators and are basically the arm they use to manipulate the students. I still paid my dues though, because apparently "I used student union facilities such as the college bar", so they were entitled to charge me.
My non-union stance was pretty effective. The college in question was so afraid of bad publicity that they didn't charge me for the one or two things that I "accidentally damaged" while I was there. I guess they thought that my little non-union thing might become a campus-wide thing if I put in the effort spread the word. They hated me, but they let me graduate, and I'd never been back there. Well and anyway I handled the union's computer maintenance under contract, so I guess they had to give me SOME respect.
*sigh* AEM7's college days...
A Studen Union is not like a labor union (in my mind at least) but is more like a cooperative for certain services such as the gedunk or bar or whatever.
Now in the Navy it was required of Officers on board ship to pay Wardroom Fees. That covered their room, board, laundry, and such services. The had to vote on what their Wardroom fees would be, and so it was that enlisted men ate better than the officers, who were always bitching about the price. But at least their fude was served by a steward!
: ) Elias
A Studen Union is not like a labor union (in my mind at least) but is more like a cooperative for certain services such as the gedunk or bar or whatever.
Yeah, it sort of is, although I always believed that student unions should take a more proactive stance in bargaining. In private colleges, the students pay the fees, therefore the student should have power over administration to request a standard of service that can reasonably be expected and consistent with what was advertized. Once you start with a certain college, it is kind of difficult to transfer, so in that sense you're stuck in a contract.
In state colleges, student unions have lesser power because the state is footing the bill for the education and there can be no "industrial action" by a student union because students can't go on strike. The idea though is that TA's and some of the faculty members and admin staff who choose to join the "student" union should be able to at least effect SOME influence on issues such as the condition of student housing, teaching quality, amenities and other issues relevant to the student population...
When I was a student, the union staged a one-day stoppage by encouraging all TA's and all students to not turn up to classes. This was over a tuition fee increase (at a state college). The problem was that most students crossed the picket lines because they couldn't afford to miss the class. That left me wondering if there are any ways for student unions to be more effective. For example, perhaps instead of simply abstaining from class, the unions ought to lock the doors to classrooms so even the non-union people could not go to class.
That day, I was out with my camera capturing all the stoppage and all the signs that had gone up all over the place, so even though I was non-union, I was not at class.
In Canada the Student Unions are fierce!
Some even dictate how the class can be taught, like all exmples in class must be from the textbook.
Our union pins voodoo dolls, sacrifices chickens and rides about in Mercedes Benz sedans. They ask for money and they work to eliminate representation of the workforce THAT MAKE TRAINS GO. The entire system comes to a halt without operational trainsets. RTO is in line for a change too... the next sucession will bring us...7-11s. CI Peter
The student union.... concerned with food service and accommodations and such is different from the Student Senate (or other form of student govenment.) *That* is the forum for socaial or shcolastic change... The Student Union seems (at least where I wnet to college) to be involved with the amenities that it provided.
Elias
A Student Union isn't really a union. Its a lump sum payment for all the social activities that go on around campus. The money also funds all the various student organizations that anyone with motovation is free to form. The money is usually administered by the "student council" that would exist in some form anyway (government majours need experience you know). I pay 180$ per semester and it is some of the best money I have everr spent. That 180 keeps the beer flowing at partied, the movies running down at the cinema, a constant stream of important speakers, bands, clubs, inreamural sports, snacks, refreshments, Simpsons marathons, etc, etc. I am an officer of the Society of Physics Students and we get funded about $300 a year so I even directly benifit from the student pool of fun money.
I used to be pro-union, until I was in one.
(All I have to do in an union is just do my job and when the elders retire, I would automatically have the seniority. What a great system.)
In a union, the people who actually do their job are the suckers, and are treated as such. And with multi-tier contracts, don't think you'll be getting the same deal as the elders have now when you become an elder youself. They'll have sucked all the money out by then.
And with multi-tier contracts, don't think you'll be getting the same deal as the elders have now when you become an elder youself.
Multi-tier contracts don't work, for the following reasons:
(1) Contracts are up for reneg every 3-5 years
(2) By the time all the "old" tier people retire...
(3) ... the "new" tier would be leading the negotiation
(4) so they'll screw the new recruits and get the "old" wages
Basically, the trick to maintaining a multi-tier contract is to ensure that there are more "old" tier people than "new" tier people. UAL was bitten by this one real bad in 1995.
AEM7
So an instructor said to me'You need three people to move up...two who can be trusted and one who does the work.' I'm the sucker. BUT on the job when the smucks come after you, you can seriously look them in the face and say, 'You've been on the job and have failed to learn the tasks assigned...I'm not here to teach or do the work you are responsible for.' Sure you could be burned when these smucks make MS before you but they need your skill and dedication to complete assignements. The opportunity is there to move up and out...even at my advanced age of 48. CI Peter
"Finally, these bums have a plastic cup on the counter to collect TIPS! Whay the heck should these people be soliciting tips. These are not waiters in a resturant. You don't give the counterperson at Mickey D a tip!"
While I haven't seen a tip cup at McD's yet, I see them all the time at Starbucks and the like, where the workers aren't waiters or waitresses either. I notice that:
1) the cups don't have much money in them, and
2) most people conduct their business without putting ANY money in the tip cup.
I agree that tipping cafe attendants, like tipping coffee shop workers, is not customary or expected. OTOH, who the hell is hurt by them "asking" with a simple cup that can be easily ignored? Nobody's being forced here, not even by the light hand of custom. If they DO get a tip every once in a while, it's because the customer truly liked the service (or, occassionally, they're trying to "hit on" the worker). In my experience, workers with tip cups, where tips aren't customary, do NOT:
1) verbally request or demand a tip, or
2) act in any way disappointed, belligerent, offended, or whatever when they don't get a tip.
or, occassionally, they're trying to "hit on" the worker
Since when did people do that?
I said on a earlyier post about having McDs on LIRR trains.
Selling MacDonald's food on LIRR trains would just be finishing what Colin Ferguson started.
¿
It took a second for the name to click, but I just got it... lol
-- David
Chicago, IL
[¿]
MacDonalds has probably killed more people by hardened arteries than ANY serial killer!!
Serial or Cereal?
I love catfish. Best catfish dinner I ever had was on the Amtrak Zephyr rolling down the Coloorado River in the summer of 1988.
Oh, and breakfast was outstanding.
The cafe car needs improving - so does Business Class on the Surfliner. But Amtrak employees, on the wholew, are friendly and engaging.
No need to reinvent the wheel. There's a VERY simple solution to this. Why not just contract food service out the the same people who make airline food. Despite popular belief, airline food is NOT shitty. The quality is much better than years past. They are capable of making the thousands of meals and varieties needed, so it wouldn't be hard for them to set up a "train division" for their foods.
Its still of TV Diner quality. Amtrak can do better and serve Fast Food quality.
Not really, but even if it was, they could probably make just first class type meals, which is very good. I doubt that it's much more expensive.
When was the last time you ever saw food on an airliner?????????????
And yes, AMTK cand and does do better than that.
The dining car service is near PERFECT.
It's the dang CAFE CARS that need an ocean of improvement.
And yes, Airline food (the way it USED TO BE) might just be that improvement. Today's cardboard box with a apple, a packaged bun and orange jusice just don't cut it!
Elias
""while their dining car fare is exceedingly good, their snack bar" &
"food is half a preservitive short of disgusting. Not only that, but the swill they sell is extremely overpriced."
you find that out riding COACH from los angeles union station..
to chicago union station then to penn station nyc ....
having to face someone else besides your wife on a diner car.....
even on off peak hours, paying full price in the diner if you ride
COACH .....then the crummy little kanteen with WHITE CASTLE
microwave burgers !!! & the cold air conditioned cars IN THE COLD OF
WINTER THEY DO THIS FREEZING YOU 2 DEATH !!!
I mean folks if they just had told us that they INSISTED ON BLOWING
FULL FORCE COLD AIR IN COACH !!!!
I saw the greyhound parked at many AMTRACK AMRUUUUCCCCCKKKK !!!
( stations ) man i wanted to bail so bad and ride the dog again !!
@(greyhound buses)...man i wanted to GET OFF OF THAT TRAIN SO BAD !!
it was not just da' food folks it was almost coming down with da'
FLU from the COLD BLOWING AIR CONDITIONED AIR IN THE WINTER TIME !!
man what a bummer tha was all cross country !!
there is that FREEZER CAR BELOW ALMOST FROZE 2 DEATH NO LOL !!
NO HEAT AT ALL !!!!!!!!!!
Q: Why subsidize a national rail system? We don't subsidize a national airline.
A: That's right, we subsidize more than a dozen national airlines, not to mention a score of regional airlines, plus the private ("general") aviation business. Highways and airlines do not pay their own way, and never have.
Q. But isn't competition good?
A. Sure, and as soon as the basic infrastructure is in place, we can perhaps have it. Until then, talk about "privatization" of Amtrak is meaningless. The British Thatcher government privatized BritRail 10 years ago for ideological reasons after many years of underfunding that particular national rail system, and got utter chaos - and the demand from those "private" operators for more and more new subsidies, once they realized how bad the infrastructure was. In any event, despite the New York Times continuing uncorrected error on this subject, Amtrak does not have a monopoly on intercity train service. That was abolished in 1997. It has the guaranteed right to operate, which is important, but other operators can and do negotiate their own deals with the freight railroads. These tend to be high-end luxury trips costing many times Amtrak's ticket charge, but there is a market for that. So be it.
Q. 99 percent of travel is by air and auto. Why start supporting rail, which carries so few people?
A. Amtrak carries 22 million people a year. The commuter rail lines, many of which are state agencies that contract out to Amtrak, carry more than 400 million. But the 99 percent statistic is even more misleading than that, because it includes every trip taken in the auto, like going out for a loaf of bread, or shuttling the kids to soccer practice, etc., many of which would never be a candidate for an intercity train trip.
The vehicle miles traveled add up, and distort the argument - which is exactly what Amtrak's enemies want, since they figure journalists, busy and distracted as they often are, will not catch the con job being worked on them by the rigid anti-Amtrak kooks.
Q. Couldn't someone else run the national rail system?
A. Sure, we could tear down what we've got and start over, and spend all that tax money - the money the critics keep talking about - again; but does that make sense? Only if you want to punish Amtrak for its poverty.
Q. Wait a minute. Didn't Amtrak get $24.9 billion?
A. Yes, it did, over the past 32 years. Over the same period the highways got $750 billion. Guess which mode people find easier to use? But of course, that leads to sprawl. An example: in the greater Chicago area between 1980 and 1990 population increased by 5 percent, but land use increased by 50 percent. Guess who gets to pay for all those new sewerage lines, firehouses, schools, road maintenance departments, etc?
That's right, the taxpayer. Public transportation, and commuter and intercity rail, often using existing rights of way, could have easily served that population growth in Chicago (and other places with similar sprawl growth patterns, such as Phoenix or Atlanta and elsewhere) but we chose to pave it, and then suburbanize it. Talk about subsidies!
I am just home from an early morning b-day railfan trip on the J,M,Z,L,E,F Lines wow! I am gonna go to the Museum Store later to pick up my b-day present. Wow whoever says the J,L,M lines are empty are dead mistakened,
Of course they're not empty. They run so rarely, the trains start to get full from passengers waiting 10-20 minutes for trains. During the day at least. Happy Birthday!
Happy birthday!
It's mine, too.
You guy couldn't wait 2 more days to be "Born on the 4th of July"?
My father was born on the 4th of July. No kidding. He was even asked by an emigration officer if he realized the entire nation would be celebrating his birthday.
He'll be 85, incidentally. And if you saw him, you'd never guess his age.
You guys couldn't wait 2 more days to be "Born on the 4th of July"?
Don't blame us! I was already a week late and my mother was getting uncomfortable.
On the other hand, my son WAS born on July 4.
Well then, "He couldn't come two days earlier!" :) Actually my mom and I share the same birthday.
BTW, thanks for the typo correction, I tried to correct that, but it wouldn't let me, and when I tried to do it quickly, it went wrong again, it posted a second time with a different typo.
You guyscou ldn't wait 2 more days to be "Born on the 4th of July"?
I can almost hear The Beatles' "Birthday" from their White album!
Happy Birthday to both of you.
Same here. I'll be railfanning in Miami in a few week. I heard the weather is cooler there as well.
Well... happy (belated) birthday to both of you. My older daughter shares your birthday as well... she turned 35 this year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What better way to celebrate "Independance Day For The Hibitually Forgetful" than to come out to the July 5th Regional Rail trip. We will meet at Market East in time to catch the 9:30 R3 out to West Trenton and then probably ride back to catch an R2 down to Wilmington. If you can't make 9:30, we can hang out for an hour and catch the 10:30, but you have to let us know. CSX shuts down on the 4th so there should be a heck of a lot of freight action at West Trenton as they try to undo the clogs. If you need any additional info just reply to this or e-mail me.
If you can't make 9:30, we can hang out for an hour and catch the 10:30, but you have to let us know.
If I get on R3 train #6344 at 30th Street at 9:22 and find out we're hanging out for an hour at Market East (of course you'll walk to Suburban Station and back), I can get off the train if my ticket hasn't been lifted and the conductor lets me off without paying. Otherwise, I'll join the cadre of SubTalkers who say unkind things about you and to you.
July 5 is running a special timetable. Sort of an enhansed Saturday thing. So make sure you are aware of it.
If I get on R3 train #6344 at 30th Street at 9:22 and find out we're hanging out for an hour at Market East (of course you'll walk to Suburban Station and back), I can get off the train if my ticket hasn't been lifted and the conductor lets me off without paying. Otherwise, I'll join the cadre of SubTalkers who say unkind things about you and to you.
Problem solved. (assuming I join the trip, which I plan to do) I'll buy a day pass at 30th Street, use it to take the Market Street Subway to 11th street or a subway surface car to Juniper, and meet yiz at Market East. Also, the $5.50 cost of the day pass, which is valid for one train fare, is the same as the fare from Center City to West Trenton.
You're always thinking. Although we might take the R3 to Fern Rock for a BSS Express ride into town.
Although we might take the R3 to Fern Rock for a BSS Express ride into town.
I considered that. With a day pass we could do stuff like that at no additional cost. Or we could ride the P&W in from Norristown for the cost of a 2-zone transfer.
I am going to visit some friends in suburban Philly on Sunday the 7th. Their station is served by a line that begins in West Trenton. I will be taking NJT to Trenton.
Are the two stations within walking distance? Is there a shuttle bus that runs on Sundays?
Thanks.
Well, how far can you walk? They are like 5-10 miles seperate. There might be a bus route, but damned if I know what it is. Try to come on our trip on the 5th. It will be a load of good fun.
From the NJ Transit site it would appear that bus service connecting the two stations runs daily but then looking in detail at the timetable I would question that. If you want to do things that way you might contact NJT first and see if it's actually possible on Sunday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Small piece in some paper today says that the Feds just gave up control over the WTC site and turned it back to the Port Authority. The PA now requires all workers on the site to go through background checks, about which some rescue, construction or uniformed services workers are complaining.
And, BTW, they quietly closed the viewing platform. Instead, you look through a wire fence at the south end of the site -- which frustratingly doesn't allow any view of PATH work, although you see lots of IRT rebuild.
Down there on Saturday, almost all of the IRT seems to be covered over. Looks like there's some kind of station shell roughly where the Cortlandt Street station would be -- I thought they weren't going to replace that one? Anyone got any info.
It's most likely just a shell that will remain closed to the public until the WTC site is redeveloped. When they finally build whatever it is they're going to build on the WTC site, the IRT station will be there and ready to be re-opened. In the meantime, trains will bypass it on their way to/from South Ferry.
Alternatively, I wonder if they could be building a temporary IRT station to allow convenient transfers from the temporary PATH station once that opens. But that's purely speculation.
-- David
Chicago, IL
No temporary station is planned. The idea was to build the shell for the platforms at the same time as the track work.
>>Down there on Saturday, almost all of the IRT seems to be covered over. Looks like there's some kind of station shell roughly where the Cortlandt Street station would be -- I thought they weren't going to replace that one? Anyone got any info<<
They aren't going to rebuild the station right now but rather will provide space for it and wait until the plans for the overall rebuilding of the entire site are more defined before they rebuild the station itself.
They aren't going to rebuild the [Cortlandt] station right now but rather will provide space for it and wait until the plans for the overall rebuilding of the entire site are more defined before they rebuild the station itself.
This indicates they intend the IRT tracks to stay right where they are, regardless of whatever else gets built around it. Earlier posts (by AlM, J Lee, others) have discussed the grade difficulties re/keeping a consistent level for the underground transit mall that's been discussed.
One solution was to dip the IRT tracks for that station -- sounds like they're planning that this WON'T happen? Or is keeping it level just the quickest renovation and the path of least resistance?
Because of political considerations -- getting the IRT opened before election day figures to help the incumbents, mainly Pataki -- the decision to rebuild on the former level was likely made without concern as to what will finally be on-site, since that was the fastest option.
If the final plans do include an underground passageway all the way from the World Finanical Center to Broadway, then they may have to rethink where the IRT tracks (and any new PATH station for that matter) would be located. A walkway two levels below ground at Church Street would be able to pass under the BMT tracks and pass one level under West Street to the WFC with no change of grade, but would smack head-on into the IRT tunnel, so the options would be either raise or lower the walkway there and then bring it back down (up) on the other side of the IRT tracks, or lower the trackbed one level.
A walkway two levels below ground at Church Street would be able to pass under the BMT tracks and pass one level under West Street to the WFC with no change of grade, but would smack head-on into the IRT tunnel ...
This sounds like you're saying that the IRT is well below the surface of Church Street, which is one complete level above Greenwich?
It looked to me like the roof of the replacement IRT tunnel wasn't more than a couple of feet below surface level where the southern stub of Greenwich terminates at the edge of Ground Zero. (Where the new chainlink-fence viewing site is.) This seems to conflict with what I think you're saying.
I believe much of the early IRT is just slightly under the street surface.
Going by the slope of the land, the IRT tracks at Greenwhich in relationship to the BMT tracks at Church are about a level lower (and that's just based on eyballing it a couple of weeks ago from at West and Vescey streets) -- they're both about equadistant to street level (the IRT Cortlandt platform may have been just a few more steps down than the BMT was), but that's because the sharpest drop in the street level heading towards the Hudson is between Church and Greenwhich at the WTC site. That's why the underground mall in the old WTC site wasn't really underground by the time it got to Greenwhich and then West Streets and why the "Great Wall of Vescey Street" was created. The old mall was at street level by the time it crossed the IRT tracks.
To get under West Street and to the WFC, any new mall would have to be one level lower. Run it straight across the WTC site, and that would put it two levels below ground at Church, which would allow it to easily pass beneath the BMT tracks (and if run across Fulton, above the IND tracks and below the IRT 4/5 tracks). The problem is the IRT 1/9 tracks, which would be at the same level as the walkway, which would force the addition of either ramps, escallators and/or elevators to get around if a passageway is built and if the tunnel stays where it is.
If they drop the tunnel one level, that would do two things. It would allow the pedestrian walkway to remain at the same level from Broadway to Battery Park City, and just as importantly, it would allow the new WTC site to better conform to the topography of the surronding land, since it could slope down towards the Hudson along with the surrounding streets and not interfere with the underground walkway (or any mall that might be built there.
As we've metioned before, two new tunnels can be dug out beneath the site of the old Cortlandt St. pltforms while keeping the temporary tunnels in operation. Then when those are complete, the new tunnels can be hooked up and work can begin on a new Cortlandt St. station, one level lower and with a center platform set-up that would exite out onto the new pedestrian walkway/mall area.
Since Pataki already has said there will be no buildings on the footprints of Tower 1 and 2, doing this would also put the WTC memorial at street level, instead of one level in the air and walled off on three sides (four actually, since the two acres taken for the memorial will have to be made up somewhere, probably by taking the two acres from the old WTC plaza which was mostly east of the towers). The only possible conflict then would depend on the final location of the new PATH station.
Interesting analysis. I'll agree that political considerations - open the IRT by Election Day! - probably have played a role in the decision to rebuild at the same level. Which brings up the question as to whether dropping the IRT one level, to accomodate a future pedestrian walkway, would be something that could be accomplished at reasonable cost (federal 9/11 relief funds certainly couldn't be used for that purpose). As far as I know there's no recent precedent for that sort of job.
Wouldn't dropping the IRT one level cause it to slice through the tunnel that leads to old Hudson Terminal? From what I saw this past Sunday, the concrete base of the IRT tunnel is literally sitting on top of the Hudson Terminal inbound access tube where they cross at a 90 degree angle. I mention this because Hudson Terminal was named as a possible replacement for the PATH WTC terminal.
Yes, that's the problem I was thinking of -- but if the old Hudson Terminal location is used while extending the platforms to handle 10-car trains, the turn-outs and turn-backs entering and/or leaving the station would have to be lengthened from their former locations.
The longer approaches could allow them to slightly lower the level the tubes cross Greenwich St., to where they can get under the lowered IRT tracks and still have a gentle enough grade to get up and back down from the Hudson Terminal site.
Yeah, that makes sense. Hudson terminal now only has space for a small number of train cars, say like 5 car trains, from the diagrams I've seen that show it in relation to the WTC Path terminal. So yeah, once it is extended, they will need new tubes.
Actually the closest precedent would be right below the IRT 1/9 tracks, when the Port Authority built the new World Trade Center PATH station below the old tubes to Hudson Terminal and kept the old tunnel in operation until the new station was build.
Not an exact copy, but it certainly shows the project could be done (and the MTA has recent experience in connecting the approaches from the 63rd St. tunnel to the Queens Blvd. line that they can apply to connecting the new lower level tracks to the existing ones north and south of the WTC site).
The specific decision to rebuild the line "as was" was not necessarily political. I read in the Times a while back that none of the insurance money could be used for anything new or different; it could only be used to replace exactly what was there before.
Plenty of other politics to be found with this, however.
does that mean 2 towers indishtingishable from the old?
No - the article was only referring to the insurance policy the MTA had.
Silverstein had a separate insurance problem - the company considered the whole thing one attack - Silverstein considered it two, as two planes each hit a tower. The difference? Over $3 billion.
The above was in the papers prior to my vacation disappearance. I don't know whether/how it was resolved. Given how insurance companies can be however, I suspect he's stuck.
"I don't know whether/how it was resolved"
In litigation. Jury trial expected in the fall.
>>This indicates they intend the IRT tracks to stay right where they are, regardless of whatever else gets built around it. Earlier posts (by AlM, J Lee, others) have discussed the grade difficulties re/keeping a consistent level for the underground transit mall that's been discussed. <<
The IRT will be at the same level it was before which is basically 2 levels below Church St. The BMT is just below Church, the IRT located equal to one level below that (the grade of the land slopes downward from Church St. When the Towers were standing the Shopping Concourse was on the same level as the BMT (N/R). The entrances to the IRT (1/9) was on the Concourse but then you had to go down one set of stairs to get to the platform.
The PATH WTC station was 3 or 4 levels (I could never really tell) below the IRT. When you took the escalator down from the Concourse you actually passed beneath the IRT Cortlandt St station which was supported by a bridge.
If you went to the site today and looked thru the fence on the Liberty St side you will see the encased rebuilt IRT ROW. Just underneath you will see a large tube encased in iron rings going under it. I believe that the tube is what is left from the H & M tracks to the old Hudson Terminal station.
If you look at the "floor" of the site you will see what is left of the tracks leading to/from the WTC station.
The WTC PATH platforms are still visible near the northeast corner of the site.
It's not even clear that dropping the 1/9 by a level would be a good idea even if time, money, and politics didn't play a part.
Yes, dropping them a level allows for a nice straight passageway from the WFC to Church St. BUT it would doom the 1/9 passengers to an extra flight of escalator forever, and also would doom PATH platforms at the Hudson terminal site to be a level lower (since the PATH has to pass under the 1/9).
So overall, there's probably less time spent by commuters on escalators by leaving the 1/9 where it is and bringing the PATH back to the Hudson Terminal site a level higher than it was in the bathtub.
Another factor is: where is the sewer underneath West St.? If it's just 1 level below West St, the passageway to WFC has to go below it, which would mean it has to be low enough to pass under the current 1/9 alignment anyway.
When the WTC was first planned, the idea of moving the 1/9 was raised, and rejected.
Remember, you have to build "easy" grades. If you were limited to the WTC site, the grade drop for one level (12 feet or so) would be very steep. You would have to go out some distance in either direction.
It will be interesting to see how the new plans work out.
was there last Sunday...for the first time since last year...even though my sister works just up west street at BMCC,and I visit her when ever im in the city...the area still has that smell...just couldnt bring myself downthere....
Early this monring around 04:50am @ Whitlock Av waiting for #6 trains heading to work @ Queensboro Plaza & in the middle track coming out of the tunnel heading to yard was R62A #1925 coupled with IR/OR #717 ex R22 #7344 & #7314. In R62A #1925 there were less 10 Transit armed guards & no one in OR/IR #717. This is not the first time & the other time i saw was R33 #9016/#9017 with 3 flat cars & EP017 @ Roosevelt Ave Station two weeks ago.
Peace
David
That is because the work cars (IR, OR, EP) are not air conditioned. They simply slap on a road car onto the work consist so that they don't have to sweat it out all night.
Why?
Because we're all human and sweat and deserve cool air if possible.
I think he was asking why the work cars weren't air conditioned. My answer would be "why should they, when they can just slap on a road car?". Last summer I saw 0R/1R 719 paired with R-32s somewhat often.
On older single R Types, it is next to impossible to install the AC equipment. There just isn't any room for it. Adding a road car that already has AC solves the problem. Why should the Collecting Agents have to swelter in this heat? They're carrying heavy money bags throughout the night.
-Stef
There is no money train anymore. Go down to jay street and look at all the armoured cars. they have with really weird codes on the doors.
Dude, what the heck have we been talking about here?
Do you have a clue?
-Stef
Apparently he doesn't. He's in my killfile before the haitus, and I didn't take him out. Guess why he went in mine.
I see. Haven't killfiled anyone yet, but there's always a first time.
-Stef
>>>There is no money train anymore.<<<
UMMM, then explain to me the train I that I see EVERY MORNING at BPB, at about 0430, with the people with guns and bags of money.
Peace,
ANDEE
At this time trains are still used for some stations and trucks for others. Pick up and delivery times are guarded info. At some stations, armed Police Officers are also present.
In the future, please do not reveal such info if you know it.
I am a passenger. I am not bound by any TA rules. Anyone can see this train. I will continue to reveal this info as I see fit. Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
In the future, please do not reveal such info if you know it.
If they do things in plain sight of the general public, it is public knowledge and as such should not be suppressed for any reason.
why not retire these cars, and replace with Redbirds that already have AC? (and save a few from being dropped in the ocean at the same time).
For one thing, some revenue collection is done by truck nowadays. For another, the "Redbirds" are in married pairs -- while two cars are needed for the revenue collector, if the collector is to operate under its own power (as opposed to being towed by locomotives) it needs two cars with compressors per NYCT policy. For the married pair to work properly, one car has to have a compressor, while the other carries a converter (which produces 37.5 VDC to run auxiliary equipment on both cars). If "Redbirds" were to be used, in other words, either four cars would have to be run, or pairs of them would have to be towed by locomotives.
David
Interesting angle ... hadn't thought of that, but of course ... still, for the comfort of employees, maybe those rider cars might be considered for A/C confiscated from the dunkers ... while the revenue collectors don't break a sweat like the road crews, perhaps it would be beneficial for them as well. For the guys that *DO* break a sweat, it's amazingly insensitive to their health this time of year NOT to.
Hopefully there are options and some shop time ... didn't know the rider cars WEREN'T provisioned with A/C while being "used" by employees. CERTAINLY the people responsible for preventing a Potters Bar situation while they do their life-critical work ...
Yeah, Heaven forfend the guys stop sweating or have an enclosed space to sit in before they PASS OUT while working on the railroad without being charged for laziness (unless of course they actually clock in and out in the same seat) ... on brutal days, only makes sense that there'd be SOME comfort while not pounding the rails.
I actually think that the "keep a redbird or five with working A/C and some spares for replacements down the road" wouldn't be such a bad idea if the OR/IR's don't have any ... when a car ain't in revenue service, don't matter how much rot there is, I've SEEN and ridden some of what once qualified ... there's nothing like a LoV with NO seats, just plywood, windows you can't see out of and windows that wouldn't open in the summer because they'd been painted shut. And I was HAPPY to get one of those coming in or out of the yards just to save me the WALK. 8/9 hours in one? Me don't think so. :)
7694 and 7695 have just arrived. I wish I could do a transfer from 239 yard to Westchester. But I guess that's for the guys with seniority.
Interesting.
Could be we have our first "delivery gap" with the R-142As as last I heard the high car on the property was 7670.
Well folks, where do you think they're going? The 4 or the 6?
Maybe we oughta take a poll <>
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I dont know when these trains will make to Woodlawn, but as I was watching the Yankee pregame show on YES, they had a shot of the 161st Street station, a redbird in the 9200's series, was leaving the station on the downtown side.
Monday nite there was a set of R142a's doing simulated stops on the 4. This was on the Livonia El...
BINGO! 7661-70 at your doorstep....
-Stef
Last sunday there was a test run of the r-142 (bomadier) on the 5 line. with the doors opening on the wrong side.
Wish you had car numbers...guess who'll be doing special inspections next week? Redbirds being brought to RTO standards are taking place of R142s not able to provide RTO service.
LIRR is taking resumes for promotional ONLY to engineer until 7/8/2.
12 weeks no pay( they will try to hgelp coordinate the classes so you can still get a check), 9 months at 70% pay then full pay of $29+.
Ask your TD for access to the TENS/intranet for more details
Can any RTO employee apply??
Honestly I can't get a good answer. First I was told ANY employee with good sick and 1 year in title then only LIRR employees. I figured RTO would have an advantage over a car cleaner on the resume.
Does anyone know of they sell (sold) full size authentic rollsigns at the transit museum? If so, any idea how much they sold/sell for?
What about actual porcelain signs that hung in stations?
Thanks. JR
I'd like to SEE the entire rollsigns. All the letters and numbers and destinations and terminals.
Sit down on a Redbird and start cranking.
I'd like to crank a few of the older trains at the Transit Museum Station.
All you'd have to do is put the gear back into each signbox which the Museum staff removed.
They do not sell rollsigns at the museum anymore. It was done for a few years (back in the late 1970's) and then was discontinued (I have no idea why).
The only signs they have are a handful of number plates taken from retired cars.
Your best bet is eBay but be prepared to pay some high prices ($25 and up, up, up)
This rollsign is going for $149.+
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2118034285
There are couple of enamel signs up for sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2118023925
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2117469985
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2117462404
The transit museum used to have auctions a few years back. I have gotten quite a few things there. I wish they still had them. Why did they stop doing that? To name a few, I picked up a porcelain "Woodhaven" pillar sign there for $10.00. Also a large trackside "E To: World Trade Center (all times)" sign for $25.00, (which I unfortunately gave top a friend a few years ago) And a C one that went next to it "C To: Rockaway Park.........". I have a rollsign from the R46's that displays any possible N, R, G, F route possible and the JFK Express. The stuff was plentiful, and fairly cheap. I passed up a lot of stuff up at those quctions, just because there was so much to pick from. Will they ever do it again, and why don't they still do it? They must have a lot of "junk" that people would buy.
JR, Try SubwayAl@aol.com, he has the inventory for the Rollsign
Shop and is an ardent supporter of the RT collection at Branford.
:-) Sparky
As a result of a recent structural study on the Kinzua Bridge in McKean County, Pennsylvania, the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources has closed the 120 year old Kinzua viaduct in central Pennsylvania to rail traffic. The 2,053-foot-long viaduct, built for the Erie RR in 1882 was once the highest in the world. It was declared a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark in 1982 and was the mainstay of the Kinzua Viaduct State Park. Since 1987, the Knox, Kane & Kinzua Railroad has operated a 93 mile steam and diesel excursion service that terminated with a trip over the bridge, affording the passengers with a fantastic view. The bridge was found to be not structurely sound enough to bear the weight of the locomotives and cars of the excursion service. However, pedestrials will still be allowed to cross the historic bridge on the footpath.
repairable?
It didn't sound like it. Just your typical 120 year old metal fatiegue.
It's well worth a visit, in any case.
AWWWWW. That is a mighty good beautiful bridge. If only they built bridges like that anymore. I would LOVE to go over it in a railcar.
Isn't there one like that (although obviously shorter) on the Port Jervis branch?
They do. You just need a canyon deep enough.
-Hank
That's a beautiful photograph of a beautiful bridge.....
Marvelous.
Thanks for putting that up for us to see.
Thank you. I took it in September 2000 when I was driving US 6 across Pennsylvania and took a break to walk across the viaduct.
Can someone tell me about when the JFK express ran and what the stops/schedule was like? Thanks, JR
The JFK Express ("Train to the Plane")ran in the 1970's. It used the R-46 car and started at 57 St/6 Av (before the 63rd St line opened). It ran down Sixth Av, making express stops; it then utilized a switch to get on to the A line tracks and ran through the Cranberry St tunnel , following the A line to Howard Beach station. It was a super-express in that it made fewer stops than the A express train did.
It ran about every 20 minutes and was not a success, primarily because it was a train to a bus to a plane. It took advantage of times when A trains did not utilize the express track. Thus, today, this train could not be run.
The stops were:
57/6
50/6
42/6
34/6
West 4 St-Lower Level
Chambers
Broadway-Nassau
Jay St/Boro Hall
and Howard Beach.
Toward the end of its existance I think it also stopped at:
21/QueensBridge
Toward the end of its existance I think it also stopped at:
21/QueensBridge
Yes it did that, and the JFK express did last until the very early 90's because it did use the 63rd Street line to terminate at 21-Queensbridge (which opened in 1989) in it's final days.
I'm not sure if it stopped at 63/Lexington. Maybe, Maybe not.
I can't remember that either.
The JFK Express stopped at Lex/63, Roosevelt Island and 21/Queensbridge. There was also IIRC a $5 surcharge to ride the train and the TA Shuttle Bus to the terminals. If you took the A or CC to Howard Beach and then transferred to the TA Shuttle Bus, you would have to pay $2 additional to ride the bus.
Yes, that's correct.
Yes, it did. For a time, from 12/88 to 4/90, the JFK express was the only train that served 63rd. St. from 9 PM to midnight, weekdays. No extra fares were required north of Rock. Ctr.
The last day of service for the JFK Express was Easter Sunday, April 15, 1990.
Wow. I didn't realize it ran that long. I have a wall size subway map from ~198x and it had it on there. So then again, I guess it is believable.
It was also used by the folks of Howard Beach in the same way Staten Islanders use express buses ... they were willing to pay the premium fare for a one-seat comfortable uncrowded ride to/from work.
--Mark
The R-46's that were originally used on the JFK (the high 1200 "A" cars) were eventually transferred from Pitkin Yard to Jamaica Yard for use on the "G" line, where they stayed until December 2001.
The JFK Express lived the rest of its rather dull existance using 4-car R-44 units.
Mark
Pretty high class duty compared to the G...just kidding
:0)
So was the JFK Express equipment always based out of Pitkin? Or were some of the trains & crews based out of another yard? Did some trains layup north of the 57th Street Station overnight?
Before the 63rd Street Extension to Queensbridge opened, there was nowhere for them to lay up. Afterward, I don't know what the policy would have been. 63rd St was an active line. There was no layup track east of 21 St in Queens - just a wall.
I think I read somewhere for a while there was a tail track of sorts after 21/Queensbridge. There was enough distance on it to lay-up one train on each track.
I don't think the "Train to the Plane" took advantage of it.
The tracks definitely didn't immediately past the platforms; I don't know if a train could fit, though.
Don't forget the layup tracks (planned for 2nd Avenue use) behind the wall at Lex, though.
I often noted at least one 600' train which would almost always lay up east 21St. in it's early days, so the tracks extended at least that length east of the station, similar to Jamaica Ctr, lower level.
OLd rumor thas it the tracks from Jamaica Center on the E leval go above ground and could be connected to LIRR (fat chance).
It's possible.
Someone told me they heard from someone who got an email from someone who went out with their brother's old college roommate's cousin's uncle who once spoke to someone who looked like he worked for the TA but only was an extra in a movie that had a scene in an abandoned subway station that was made up to look like a real one that the tracks are connected to the line coming from 76th Street.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
The original plan I believe was to have the Archer Avenue line enter the LIRR ROW and continue on to Springfield Gardens, or something like that.
That was the plan,along with the upper lever going farther east to Queens Village. It was part of ''Phase Two''Program for Action..in 1968.
That's not a rumor. The upper level E tracks curve around and could have utilized LIRR ROW to serve a part of SE Queens that had no subway service. This is one case where LIRR resistance, lack of funding and FRA regulation, rather than NIMBY, killed it.
This is one case where LIRR resistance, lack of funding and FRA regulation, rather than NIMBY, killed it.
As for the FRA regulation, wouldn't the share of the ROW be allowed as long as the tracks are not shared? I believe subway and conventional trains can not run on the same tracks, but I assume that if they run side by side on seperate tracks that would work.
I believe it would too. But there were several factors at work.
If the LIRR resisted it enough, the MTA chair might not push hard for it. FRA had started a regulation enforcement crackdown, and so there would have been a lot of scrutiny.
Also, extending the subway further to Rosedale and building new elevated stations on that ROW may have cost more than was available in the 1982-86 Capital Plan (the plan which provided the funding to implement the Archer Av Extension. Recall that Archer Av was actually begun in 1972 and was stopped by the financial collapsae of NYC in the mid-1970's. Thanks Abe Beame, we really appreciated that).
Thanks Abe Beame, we really appreciated that).
Don't blame old Abe for the crash of 1975. Blame Wagner & Lindsey's addiction to increasing spending on social programs.
Nonsense. Wagner had nothing to do with this screwup. It was 100% Beame.
Abe Beame's foolish decision to switch $280 million from a capital account to an operating account to forstall a 5 cent increase in the fare, a meaningless gesture which he hoped would save his mayoral career, cost NYC $1 billion in federal matching funds (4 for 1). $1 billion in 1975 was enough to build a big chunk of Washington Metrorail; fund San Francisco's BART construction; in NY, it would easily have been enough to complete the Archer Avenue Extension with the lower level stretching to 168 St and beyond. Further, the 63rd St Extension, begun in 1968, would have been substantially implemented (connected to QB as now but with an additional express line).
The Board of Estimate approved 11 new lines. That was overly optimistic, but there is no doubt in any historian's mind that that at least the two projects with a good chance to be completed would have been done.
Beame was a weak, corrupt idiot who never should have been elected.
If only this jibed with the facts...
From 1974 to 1978, the city (and any other locality that wanted to) had the option of BORROWING up to 1/2 of its federal capital grant for current operating expenses, with the money to be repaid during the course of capital construction.
The $280 million figure "Ron in Bayside" cited is substantially correct (actually $281 million). New York State paid back 3/4 of the amount borrowed, with the money coming out of its own capital budget. However, it should be remembered that the fare DID increase during this time (from 35 cents to 50 cents in 1975). It should also be remembered that the $281 million would not have triggered a grant of four times that much in capital funds from the federal government, since the money ALREADY represented the federal outlay of capital funds for the NYC Transit System. (The above distilled from A NEW DIRECTION IN TRANSIT, by the New York City Planning Commission, 1979).
As to "Ron"'s statements about Mayor Beame, neither my memories of that time nor anything I have read since (other than on this board) point to his being anything other than a lifelong public servant who was "rewarded" for loyalty to his party by essentially being handed the Mayoralty (he was a Democrat in a traditionally Democratic city) but was simply overwhelmed by the task at hand -- and, by the way, as Comptroller during the second Lindsay term, he warned repeatedly that the city was headed for fiscal disaster if it didn't stop spending more than it was taking in, and Lindsay chose to plow ahead anyway. I have never seen any evidence, nor heard or read any assertions other than "Ron"'s, that Mr. Beame was corrupt.
But I digress...
David
One could argue that Beame's taking on the job, when he knew he was unfit to handle it, was a form of dishonesty if not outright corruption.
I think Beame took the fall for things he warned about while working under Wagner and Lindsey. Beame had a city that was going bankrupt and he did what he had to.
True, but the underlying cause of the economic crash was Lindsey's fault. His people knew that the problem was coming and did nothing to correct the causes.
The causes were not his to correct.
That's bull. He was the mayor. He had the power to at least stop causing damage, even if he couldn't repair past damage.
Really? He can dictate to the State of New York what to do? He can dictate to the feds what to do? He can dismiss the City Council and form his own?
A great fantasy you have there.
Now, maybe Mayor Street here in Philly thinks he can do that (and tries to)...
He could have proposed realistic budgets. May have been political suicide, but he could have done it.
"He could have proposed realistic budgets. May have been political suicide, but he could have done it."
You've made exactly the right point. Increasingly, for decades, there was a failure of will on the part of Democrats and Republicans alike (e.g., Rockefeller shares a lot of blame too) to acknowledge how much money there really was and how much we were borrowing from the future.
It still happens now of course, but much less so than then.
"It should also be remembered that the $281 million would not have triggered a grant of four times that much in capital funds from the federal government, since the money ALREADY represented the federal outlay of capital funds for the NYC Transit System."
Wrong. The planning commisssion can say what it wants, but yes, that 281 million could have triggered an additional federal grant. SF did it, Washington did it.
"However, it should be remembered that the fare DID increase during this time (from 35 cents to 50 cents in 1975)."
The fare increase you cite only proves my point - it should have happened a year earlier, when it would have done some good.
A federal grant could trigger a federal grant? That's not the way the UMTA 80/20 program worked. A locality had to come up with 20 percent of the cost of a project on its own. The federal (UMTA) government would supply the remaining 80 percent. The $281 million ALREADY represented the 80 percent. Under "Ron"'s theory, the federal government would have paid 160 PERCENT of the cost of the project or projects!
As to the fare increase, it can easily be argued that just about ANY fare increase in the history of the NYC Transit System should have happened before it did...what politician wants to take the blame for a fare increase? (rhetorical question -- please don't answer!)
David,
I guess I should have been more clear:
The 281 million was in the city coffers. This was city money, not federal money. By applying to UMTA's capital matching program, the money would have been matched up to 4 for 1. But in order to do that, Beame would have had to spend it on capital projects, not subsidizing the fare. That was where the screw-up was.
But you knew that already.
Ron
Reguardless, the fiscal crisis of 1975 was caused by problems outside of mass transit spending, or fare increases. It was caused by a culture which thought it wise to spend money at a greater rate than revenues collected. The future was continually mortgaged to prop up the present. The pyramid collapsed on Beame.
OK - but it doesn't excuse his screw-up. Since the transit money was separate and earmarked, a 5 cent fare increase followed by a Capital funds application would have created at least two new full length subway lines, and would not have made any other condition worse or better. His failure resulted in the need to fund subway projects from other pots which ran out as NY's fiscal crisis began.
>>>The pyramid collapsed on Beame. <<<
And since he was previously comptroller, he should have seen it coming.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't tell me what I know. What I KNOW is that the money was ALREADY federal money that was part of UMTA's federal capital allotment for the MTA. I have already stated this. In addition, I have also stated that the money had to be paid back. It was.
One generally doesn't go into a bank to get a loan using, say, a house as collateral, get the money from the bank, then attempt to get a bigger loan from the same bank using the original money as collateral -- it just doesn't work that way.
David
OK. I won't tell what you know. But don't post fictional BS like that. It isn't true and you know it (sorry about that, there I go again).
The ONLY way I can figure "Ron"'s statement to be true (and it takes some pretty convoluted thinking) is if he's counting the money the city/state had to pay back to the federal government as money that should have been capital funds, which would then be eligible for 80% federal matching. The ORIGINAL funds were already federal capital funds, and therefore they were ALREADY the 80% matching funds, so that can't be it (protestations to the contrary notwithstanding), but the REPAID funds came out of the city's and state's capital budgets, and, had they been used for their original purpose, might have been eligible to trigger matching federal funding. Clear as mud :-)
David
Of course, you're always right, there's just no other way.
If someone disagrees with you, then it's because THEY are wrong and must be re-educated.
Why kind of social programs?
The tail tracks went all the way to the 29 ST bell mouth.I used to see Q/B trains lay[ed] up over there all the time...
Take a railfaned window train through the 63st tunnel towards manhatten. When you see the track change from welded-rails-on-wood-sucken-in-concrete to welded-rails-with-pandrol-clips-and-sitting-directly-on-the-concrete also the rail is slightly raised off on a little platform that was made by a mold when they poured it.
There was no layup track east of 21 St in Queens - just a wall.
I can remember seeing trains lay-up on the tracks just east of 21st st queensbridge. I don't know if this was added as construction progressed, but it was there before construction on the connector was completed.
You're correct the tracks did continue east past the platform.
Wayne
The JFK Express always used 3 car R46 trains, right up till the end, not R44's.
Wrong, Chris R27-R30!!!!!!!!
The JFK Express used four-car R44's based out of Pitkin in its final couple of years. Look it up, pal. The R46's were transferred to Jamaica for "G" service. Just because my handle is "Q5Merrick" don't think I can't tell the difference between an R44 and an R46.
Mark
Um, I really hate to burst a bubble, but fellow buff, R-44's cruised the JFK line in it's last days.
Now, My question to you is, how could they run 3 car R-46s when the R-46s are married in either 4-car or 2-car sets, 3 cars are IMPOSSIBLE by the design of the car
R-44s my man, R-44s, and 4-car sets with 1 one door opening on the platform for the conductor to collect the fare.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
At the time, the cars weren't linked together. It was indeed possible to run a 3-car train of R-46s, and it was indeed done on the JFK Express. The R-44s made their way to the JFK Express around the time the R-46s went for their GOH, at which time all of the R-46s (except the last few) were linked into 4-car units.
David
There were several dedicated R44s running on the Bird with door modifications specifically for that line. One mod was a three position vapor switch that would either Isolate, run as JFK or all door open mode. This switch was placed at the number 4 and 12 panels under the windscreens. The switchs when set to JFK would allow for only the 4,5 and 11, 12 door engines to open forcing passengers through particular doors so clerks could collect fares, similar to duties of Conductors on the Dyre Avenue Shuttles way back then. I recall 100 as having those switches. At night, when the JFK ran shuttle service to 57/6, the switch would be placed to the all doors open position, when the Grand Street Shuttle and its ENY R27 garbage was retired.
Dude, why is the response to several different threads coming up with "Flickering lights Q&A" as the subject???
Anybody else see this or is it just my computer?
I see it too. I've seen it on 2 other ones of his posts...
It was a problem with the newer Netscape 7 I used. When I saved my handle and password, the cache was imprinting the original subject line. The problem should be corrected
The R46's were sent out for their GOH in the final days of the JFK express. I stand by my statement that the R44's never ran on the line at the end. It was 3 car R46's, even into April 1990.
Stand by the statement, stand clear of the closing doors...I don't care. It is a FACT that R-44s served the JFK Express at the end of its existence. I was on the last train. Its consist was (North) 286-123-233-146 (South) -- not a R-46 in the bunch. It left Queensbridge at 11:58 PM April 14 and was scheduled to leave Howard Beach at 12:56 AM on the 15th. It was supposed to drop out at Rockefeller Center, but it continued to Queensbridge and coupled to another 4-car R-44 set.
By the way, the R-46s went out for overhaul BEFORE the R-44s did...another fact.
David
I've personaly seen R44's on the JFK Express at the 21st Queensbridge station[Queens bound platform]
What part of R44's ran on the JFK Espress" don't you understand??? I rode the JFK on its final day and it was an R44! You can stand by your statement all you want. You'll be standing alone!
Mark
Was there a band of painted grey steel on the side. Normally where the candystripe would go.
Now, My question to you is, how could they run 3 car R-46s when the R-46s are married in either 4-car or 2-car sets, 3 cars are IMPOSSIBLE by the design of the car
Before their GOH, the R46 could be configured in many ways. The 3 car JFK trains used sets of A-B-A cars. Same for the R44.
Anyone have proof the R44's ran on the JFK express post 1986?
I do...read the post (by me) immediately before this one.
David
Must've been a fluke. I saw R46's, 3 car sets, in April 1990, all up & down the line.
R-44s were used on the JFK Express from the day the Archer Avenue Line opened, December 11, 1988, until the end of service on April 15, 1990. If 3-car R-46s were observed on the JFK Express in April 1990, THAT was the fluke.
David
The end might be near for the East Broad Top, narrow guage excursion railroad in Central PA (near Mt. Union). The 130 year old railroad was rescued from scrapping in 1956 and since then was run as a tourist line utilizing 8 of its remaining Baldwin 2-8-2 steam locomotives. During the past few years there was some optimism that a future inflow of public and private money could really make the EBT a majour tourist destination like Strassburg or Steamtown. Despite infrastructure improvements and a short line freight carrier starting up in Mt. Union and re-habbing the dual guage trackage there, none of the big bucks ever materialized and now the ETB is looking at Bankruptcy and abandonnment. Adding to this, the FRA has been beathing down their necks about a full inspection for their steam locmotives, something that could cost $80,000 each. The EBT, deemed a national historic landmark 38 years ago, is on the National Trust for Historic Preservation's list of most endangered sites. Its meager income can't cover debts -- let alone shore up deteriorating buildings or buy advertising that observers say could bring a threefold increase in its laggard 12,000-person-a-year ridership. Aside from money, investment could have alowed them to offer 7-day-a-week operation, instead of just weekend service. There are a whole bunch of deals and accisition intrigues that I won't get into here. But the long and shots is that they need 2 million dollars and any deals to get this money are sketchy at best.
The head of the EBT said "It could have become a valuable property," he said. Now -- historic value aside, judging from a financial standpoint -- if the EBT vanishes, the loss won't be felt. "The impact would be practically none,"
So please go out and try to support the EBT. Either visit or send a donation or promote it to your friends or rail organizations. There are no plans to shut down operations in the near future.
Is the R-32's still operating on the F Line?
Yes, often times during the off-peak. I like them so much better than the R-46's.
When is off-peak hours? I like the R-32's because they have the railfan window and I like the R-46 because they are fast, quiet & comfortable.
When is off-peak hours?
It is any time that is not peak hours.
What I meant was what time are off-peak hours?
Uh, any time other than peak hours..meaning rush hours.
What did you think it meant?
Rush hours generally defined as 6:30 AM till 9:30 AM and again from 3:30 PM till 8:00 PM. Of course trains start rush hour service a little earlier in order to have rush hour service on the whole line by then.
I didn't know what it meant, thats why I asked, Duh!
You can find them almost all the time on the F Line. On Saturday, I rode the Brooklyn portion and saw around 4-5 trains.
"Yes, often times during the off-peak. I like them so much better than the R-46's"
I like both the R-32 and the R-46, but I hope for an R-32 F when I am Queens-bound, because I love looking out the railfan window while going through the 63rd street connector. -Nick
One trainset stopped for me at Roosevelt on Sunday. Unless something's changed in the past two days, yes, they're still there.
Funny, I was waiting, and waiting for them at Stillwell Ave. on Friday just to get a glimpse of them, and get picture shots, but yet I still found R46's. Do they only go to Kings Hwy? What's up with that?
I don't think they're used specifically on the Kings Highway short-turns, but maybe the day you were waiting they were.
How long were you waiting? The F is a long line, and if the five R-32 trains happened to be clustered together, you could be in for a three-hour wait assuming they were even running to Stillwell.
On weekends they certainly run to Stillwell, since (IINM) all weekend F trains run to Stillwell.
(Yes, the top rollsign is set wrong -- I didn't do it, I promise!)
Oops!
Call me crazy, call me what you will, but I said this all before and I will say it again.....in my opinion the R-32 was the best thing they put on the F line. The trains are fast, the A/C is good, the PA is good, as for doors they are nice and fast. The R-46s as far as the
doors go are annoying slow, sometimes the PA either doesn't work, or is far too loud, and sometimes no matter how much you close the cab window, it still gets excess feedback, which means pissed off customers complaining about loudness. I think the best equipment on the F is the R-32.
I like 4 tracks better than 2 - but you're wrong about the new subway's ability to help relieve loads.
Look at the big picture: 6 tracks on the East side are better than 4 tracks today. End of story.
I've never heard feedback. Only on the old equipment with the corner cabs that sometimes have their doors opened while the C/R makes announcements. And they're leaning on it at the same time and start getting pissed off at the feedback.
While i was doing "On Time Performance" @ Queensboro Plaza & Woodside/61 St. I count 8 sets of R62A out of 32 car sets running today on7 line & more to come soon. Here is the cars # i saw today are.
North~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~South
2151-2115-2149-2123-2114-2102-2145-2135-2143-2153-2118
2134-2107-2110-2127-2136-2112-2130-2108-2117-2122-2116
1680-1676/2148-2125-2149-2149-2155-2126
1685-1681/2128-2142-2141-2138-2137-2140
1695-1691/2132-2100-2099-2150-2131-2133
1696-1700/2120-2129-2111-2147-2097-2139
1705-1701/2109-2101-2106-2098-2104-2152
1706-1710/2103-2105-2124-2121-2119-2096
Heh, how was the on time performance?
Seen testing today at 3rd av:
8173-8176 with 8185-8188.
Seen in service were:
8161-8164 with 8165-8168
8101-8104 with 8149-8152
8108-8105 with 8153-8156
8177-8180 with 8181-8184.
I will poat daily updates as trains are seen except when I am off or if I am pulled to work somewhere else.
I didn't get car numbers, but yesterday morning around 10, a set of R-143's was blocking the Jamaica-bound J/Z track at Broadway Junction (aka Eastern Parkway). Trains to Jamaica had to use the middle track.
So, that's the first appearnce for 8177-8180.
Thank you!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I rode 8137-40/8157-60 from Livonia to canarsie. I did see the 8101-04/8149-52 set.
Thanks for the info! Anyone seeign any sets other than what I post can feel free to post the info.
Arcane detail department:
BMT line QW is on its way out.
At 8th Ave station, there are new chaining markers on the wall, with tape over the measurements. Also there is an automatic which has already recieved its new number plate.
The joke is: suppose they ever extend the Canarsie Line west again--say to Javits Center. That would mess up the new chaining.
In that case, they'll rechain all over again!
What is chaining?
See thejoekorner at http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/chainall.htm.
In short determining the distances.
My buddy used to survey for the NPS and says that a "chain" is literally a 66 foot chain, that laid over the land, is used to determine lot sizes. Like if you laid out 10 square chains you'd have an acre, or something.
Luckily for mental cases like myself, the "virtual" chains of NYCT are 100' long.
The chain is whatever length is convenient for doing the survey.
For railway surveying, 50' or 100' stationing is textbook.
[For railway surveying, 50' or 100' stationing is textbook.]
Jeff, would that 'textbook' be the one written by the noted track 'guru' Bill Young?
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of Railway Engineering by Wm. Hay, which is now in its 10th edition or so.
EXACTLY! Also, the rods and chains make miles easier to understand.
Who the hell can remember 5,280?
But:
3 feet=1 yard (we all know that one)
5.5 yards=1 rod (16.5 feet)
4 rods=1 chain (66 feet)
10 chains=1 furlong (660 feet)
8 furlongs=1 mile (5,280 feet)
An acre is 4 rods wide and 1 furrow (a corruption of forty) long, so 10 square chains or 43,560 feet2.
Nevertheless, isn't this much easier to figure out:
10 meters=1 decameter
10 decameters=1 hectometer
10 hectometers=1 kilometer
1 hectometer2=1 hectare.
Of course, the metric system is easier to use in our ten-fingered society, but like Galileo, it ignores the human dimension in worshipping strict mechanistic materialism.
As a historical aside, in the 20s, the entire US was surveyed 66 ft at a time with the chains. That is where we got the North American Datum Standard of 1927 (NAD 27) that every survey until 1983 when a more accurate NAD 83 was surveyed. But some local jurisdictions still base their surveys off of NAD 27, just because it take too much time and money to redo all the maps.
They can start a new work classification on the TA: chain gang! :)
I can hear them singing now. "We've Been Working on the Chain Gang!"
"We've Been diggin the on the SA Subway, all day long."
Too bad this website don't have audio.
Obviously a meaning of 'bad' of which I am unfamiliar.
Nothing stops you from EMBEDding audio into your posts, but I won't tell you how.
Just as well. We probably couldn't sing that well. ;-)
Look at this site. And Also on this google serach. Just remember this will suck bandwidth like hell and you better something BETTER than a T-1.
The problem with sound is that some of us look at subtalk at work sometimes.......sound won't go over to well.......please don't.
No, if the extension is long enough, they would create a new letter chain, like they did when they extended B5/6 north via 63rd.
B5/6 end N of 57th st, the become T1/2
There's always negative numbers!
Yeah, like on my new microwave! If you enter a negative number, it chills your drink! :)
I thought you could only make your microwave do that if you turned the AC plug upside down!
I tried that, but one prong is bigger than the other...
and remember about the ground prong.
If I grind up the prongs, the filings get in my pizza.
I never saw a plug/outlet compatibility issue that couldn't be solved very efficiently with a hammer.
Hey, Paul: I'm looking forward to when the Canarsie Line is RESTORED to it's original configuration....this of course would mean demolishing several backyards from Flatlands to Seaview Avenue...(hey, if Robert Moses could do it, why not the NYCT in the interests of 'progress'?)
;-D
I think there is also a high school along the route.
Tear it down! (sorry, couldn't resist) ...
Cut a big hole through it and shore up the building. If the west side el went through buildings can't any other els?
"If the west side el went through buildings can't any other els?"
The West Side el was not an el but a railroad. Many freight spurs dodge in and out of the buildings they serve.
It is also likely that the line was there first and that they built the buildings around it.
Freight Railroads are forever leasing out the land along their right of ways to firms who will then use the railroad for their shippings.
Out here BNSF is rather tough about such buildings (including their own!)... USE THEM, PAY RENT ANT TAXES, or GET THEM OFF OF OUR LAND!
They sold the depot in our town to the local florist, with the stipulation that he move it from the land in 30 days.
Actually not the physical building itself, just a portion of it's athletic field, and part of it's yard.
Actually, if you look at a Mapquest arial map, you can trace a lot of the right-of-way, even now.
Seven years ago, it was intact. My grandparents home was at 1515 E. 95th St. The line ran behind the house. They had a gate to it, but I was forbidden (and too short, the lock was behind the top of the gate) to go through it. There were houses built on the ends of each stretch. I remember them building the one on Ave M(N? fuzzy...) in the 80s.
-Hank
And PLEASE, put back the wooden shack and the grade crossing at 105/Turnbull while you're at it. That was my FAVORITE part of the old line prior to the screwage they did when they (kaff kaff ahem) "fixed" it. :)
Will do, my man...
How much work is involved in rechaining a line? Don't they have to change the number plates all over the line, in addition to relabeling all the switching machines in all the towers? How much is this going to cost, and where are they getting the money?
- Lyle Goldman
They'd have to change all the number plates on automatic signal
heads and also the model boards in the towers. Interlocking signals
and switch machines are not designated by chaining number. Since
there is a project (some might even say a conspiracy) underway to
replace ALL of the signal equipment on 14St/Canarsie, there is really
no additional work or expense. (Presumably they have just taken
the existing chaining numbers and made an arithmetic correction,
as opposed to sending someone out there with an actual chain starting
at 14 St & 8 Ave, plus a foreman, flagger and RTO flagging
supervisor).
Actually the chain was payed out from a special flat car, all the way from 8th Ave to Eastern Parkway, during a G.O.
It was the same chain that was once stretched from 6th Ave/14th all the way to the intersection of the NY&NJ state lines in the middle of New York harbor. Once there, the tugboat placed a surveying marker marked "IND ZERO" onto a bouy.
> all the way from 8th Ave to Eastern Parkway
Why only to Eastern Parkway? Why not all the way to Canarsie?
- Lyle Goldman
Canarsie is BMT Line-P.
But now that I think about it, there really is no reason not to, especially with the re-alignment at Atlantic...
Has anyone, (Doug?), been out to Canarise and seen evidence of a chaining change to Line-Q?
The Chain is only so long, and then they got to reel it in and move to the next section.
Oh... welll... yeah wait until the next section is finished with its realignment, er why do it twice!
Elias
David G. and I were up at 207th about an hour ago and I got this photo of an R-38 train heading into the portal to the A-line. The lead R-38 seems to be #3950 (first in the series) and has its flip-dots saying "B."
We also saw the R-110B in the yard...I got a photo but it is kind of bright. I think I can tell that it is the R-110B but you might not believe me.
Here is the R-110B. It is the train closest to you and set back a bit.
I can tell it's a R-110B from the black on the front of the car. Although if you hadn't told me, I probably wouldn't have seen it at all.
Yeah, that's my reasoning also. Credit goes to David J. Greenberger for spotting it in the yard.
But cleavarly the side rollsign is blocked by the signal tower (?).
oh yeah, I planned it that way. you got me. game over.
You can always jump back in time and grab some R38s on the B when the World Trade Center Terminal (for switch replacement) was closed and the E was extended to Euclid.
You know, on these new rollsigns, since we're in the year 2002, I'm sure that it's set up so that whatever letter is on the front is what the whole train is showing...side rollsigns and all.
You'd be wrong. Only the R44/46, R142/142A, and R143, which have all-electronic signs (with the exception of the 44/46, which have a front curtain). As delivered, the R44/46 had side curtain signs that could be changed automatically. I had never seen them work.
-Hank
Really?
Interesting....
I would have assumed that by now, you'd just dial up "A train", for example, and every sign on the train would read "A train".
I stand corrected....thank you.
That would require 6 motors per car for curtain signs, plus the wiring to make it work. Since the cars are almost always assigned to the same line, the roll signs are rarely changed. Each motor needs to be maintained, and so on...
-Hank
Ah, I understand now..thanks again!
The Multis had a chain driven sign mechanism operated from the cab, IIRC. In later years, it tended to malfunction. Consequently there would be instances of incorrectly marked trains.
Denver's LVS have motorized roll signs, four per car, which are changed by entering a two-digit code on a hidden keypad above the cab windshield. For the most part, they work fine; however, once in a while you'll find a sign showing an incorrect destination.
Were the side cutains on R-44/46 like the the R-68? any pics?
I haven't seen many pictures on this site of them but from I have seen, it's the route curtain in the middle and the destinations to the left and right of them.
I haven't seen many pictures, but's the route bullet in the middle and the destinations to the left and right of it.
I haven't seen many pictures, but's the route bullet in the middle and the destinations to the left and right of it.
I have a roll sign from the R46's. It was the entire length and width of the space where the digital signs are now. The bullet with the route letter was to the left, and the destinations were on the right on top of each other, for example: E Jamaica Center, with World Trade Center right under Jamaica Center
Well actually the E isn't on my rollsign I was just using that as an example. I only have any possible route combination of the F, G, N, R and JFK Express.
Those were the replacement signs. The original signs had strip maps for the insides of the cars, and had the bullet in the middle of the exterior sign, with a destination to either side. The last replacement signs before overhaul had the bullet to the left, with the destinations one atop the other. These were one-piece signs, as were the signs of the R40/R42 before overhaul.
-Hank
Ahh yes, thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I must have the replacement one. Like you said it's one piece, with the destinations on top of each other. Come to think of it I only vaguely remember the other one you are talking about. Obviously, my rollsign is not as old as some, as Jamaica Center is mentioned on a few of the possible routes, believe it or not with the G train, and I think also some route with the F also. They accounted for many different possible (totally unused) routes. I believe one is G- Jamaica Center and Smith 9th, etc. I got to pull that out and see all the others one day. Another is F - 57th/Ave of Americas and Coney Island. There is no reference to Queensbridge/21, so it's pre-63rd Street Connection in 1989.
Does anyone have a picture of the interior strip maps? The exterior signs with centered bullets show up in a few shots on this site, but I'm curious how they looked inside.
As for the R-40, are you suggesting that the three-window signbox (which I have trouble imagining dates only from GOH) revealed three sections of a single sign?
As delivered, the cars had a single-piece roll sign. The best photo I could find is this one.
-Hank
How did it look inside? One-piece or three-piece?
I can't find an interior photo that has a decent angle to show the sign. However, if the exterior sign was one piece, I can't see how they would fit the additional equipment for three independant interior signs.
Thinking about it, I just pulled out my 'Evolution' book. Page 261 shows the interior of an R42, the interior sign is one piece, with a strip map on the inside. Page 258 establishes the same sign was used for the R40/42/44/46. There is an interior photo on page 259 that looks like the same sign, and the photo is undoubtably an R40.
-Hank
No, I know it's a single roll -- but is each display on the roll in three distinct sections, to be seen through three separate windows?
I have trouble believing the R-40's interior sign layout is not a product of the late 60's/early 70's.
The interior sign is a strip map. That precludes framing it.
-Hank
R40 through 44 used the same side signs. Click here for an example.
On the "inside" was a route map that would run from right to left, down, then right (for very long routes like the D or F), with transfers to other lines shown as arrows going through the stop markers. The northern terminal, route letter and southern terminal appeared in the "middle" of the map.
W4 Roosevelt Continental Parsons 179
+-- o ---...--+--......----o----...---o---...---o
| E,EE,GG,7
|Delancey
-o- QJ, M 179 Street Coney
| Jamaica (F) Island
|
| B,D,N
+-- o ---...---o---...---o
Smith Church Coney Island
(sorry about the alignment, just quick and dirty, not going to fuss with spacing...you get the idea)
The R46 was similar but moved the route designator to the left and had the terminals stacked over each other to the right. Click here for example.
The interior strip became a single line in the color of the route with the route letter at the left and right, black dots for stations and the station names slanted towards the right at a 45 degree angle to the line and color dots of transfer below the station dot.
Thanks. So was the current R-40 three-window display installed at GOH or was that an earlier change?
The abomination must be GOH or later. From the pics I've seen here, it looks to be a really cheesy knock-off of the R68.
Have you never seen it in person? Inside, it looks nothing like what's on the R-68.
(Sorry about the picture quality -- the bright light outside fooled the camera.)
What's wrong with what was used on the R-42?
Is that a BROWN S?
-Hank
Orange upside-down "S" probably from a G.O.
No, an orange S. It should be brown. It's on a J shuttle -- service was split for the weekend at Canal.
If that's orange, one of us needs to adjust our set.
-Hank
Looks like you need to adjust yours, Hank... looks orange to me!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Look at the rolling stock pictures on this site. There are a bunch of pictures that show the original rollsigns, and blue stripes on the sides. The 44's were different from the 46's though. The 44's had the destinations on the sides and the bullet in the middle. The 46's had the bullet on the left hand side, and the destinations one on top of one another to the right of the bullet.
May have been some kind of emergency put it for some reason?
Nah... you can easily play with those flip dots. It's just a large knob with letters to select. Maybe the T/O wanted to do some "tests".
It looks like a 9. That's a yard move, not a put-in. The safety chain is down. 3950 is the first or lowest number of the R38's.
It's either a B or an 8.
I don't think you can select 8 on the dial inside.
You can select any alpha-numeric character, and 'blank'.
-Hank
Some trains have dials and others have pushbutton controls, similar to the ones on buses. Which trains have which? Is it an R-32 vs. R-38 thing?
I've definately seen R32 Phase II with the dials out in Coney Island on the N.
I've never seen pushbuttons in R32/R38.
-Hank
I saw one on an A train -- R-38, I think, but possibly R-32.
YOu can.
A 9??
What?
No, it doesn't.
You know, it's amazing how people can't just look at it and say, "wow, a R-38 signed as a B".
It has to turn into a big discussion "It looks like an 8...it looks like a 9....yada yada yada".
I don't think it is so big. If someone honestly thinks it says 9 rather than B then let him post that.
Ah, you're right, I was halfway kidding.
The Very Unusual G.O. that has swtiched the C and D line roles along the CPW has confused the public. People were like is this running express only today, or tomorrow? There was mass confusion, especially during rush hour where angry commuters were upset about being late. The Conductors didn't announce it until 145 Street. It seems that there were not enough notices to tell the people of the massive G.O. that was really hitting service on the D hard.
would have liked to have seen it :(
It's in effect every weekday, 5am to midnight (including rush hours), from today until August 9. Get used to it.
The extra three minutes on the D isn't a big deal, although most express passengers think they're saving at least twice as much time as they actually are, so I can't blame them for complaining. The loss of access between Washington Heights and CPW/8th Avenue local stops, and between CPW local stops and 8th Avenue, is a big deal. Notice that there's no direct access to 50th Street from the north.
I'm sure the SB platform at 59th was not a pretty sight.
I assume this is due to work on the switches south of 145th. (But why isn't the GO in effect on weekends, then?)
i guess they think they'll be able to get more done during the weekdays since its 5 days than in 2 days.
I'm assuming the work is keeping a switch or section of track somewhere out of service at all times, but that only with weekday headways does that force the C onto the express track.
Wait, I think I've answered my own question. If the work is on the switches south of 145th, forcing all Concourse trains onto the local, then the C can't also fit on the local, so it has to run express. (Yes, all the way to Canal -- that's the first point after the D peels off that it can switch back to the local, although by that point it needs to stay on the express.) But late nights the A and D can both fit on the local with no difficulty, and on weekends the B doesn't run, so the C can fit in its usual slot. In either case, the D could go back to normal at 125th, or it might just run local the whole way.
In any case, the way service is running now, at nights and weekends there's no direct access from local stations to 6th Avenue, but on weekdays there's no direct access from local stations to 8th Avenue.
Getting back to your suggestion, if that were the case, then wouldn't the GO run over the weekend with two weekdays off rather than only on weekdays?
Just checked GOs on the MTA website. Apparently Ds will be going down to West 4th via the A late nights until August 9th, at the same time the Cs are rerouted.
It's not the switches in Homeball Alley that are the problem. IIRC, I saw trackage that was skeletonized in the 59th street area, with a low-speed restriction on trains diverging onto the 6th Avenue track as well as 8th Avenue locals.
That may have also been the reason the D was cutoff south of 145th some time ago.
The skeletonized trackage south of 59 Street has concrete now, and trains are running fine. Now the main question is, what is going on between 145 Street and 125 Street to cause such an odd go, no one has been able to point out the exact construction they are doing, and when I was on the C express yesterday at 2 there were no construction workers in sight. Is this just a test to see how people would respond to an all Local D? Or a test to see how CPW service would take it if the system was like this. Very interesting situation.
Don't assume the work is at 145th. It could be anywhere; if it's on a switch that's currently out of use, you might not see it. The work may even be all the way down at Canal, at the crossover the C normally uses to get from the local track to the express track to continue to Brooklyn (although that leaves open the question of why service reverts to normal nights and weekends). There isn't enough capacity on the line for three services to (comfortably) share one track, so if the C is forced to run express at any point between 145th and Canal, that forces the D onto the local, and vice versa.
Does anyone have a copy of the actual GO? (Alex? This affects B service as well.) Which section of track is out of service?
I haven't been on the IND since Monday. How's the signage, both at express stations and at local stations? Anything on C and D trains?
<<<How's the signage...<<<
In a word, AWFUL, as usual.
<<<Anything on C and D trains?<<<
I can't speak for the C train. But, I have yet to see even one sign on a D train yet.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was headed downtown from 81st yesterday. There were 8.5x11 paper sheets posted on pillars saying take the D because the C runs express.
There were lots of announcements being made too, but they weren't very clear. No suggestion other than "construction" of why the change was in place.
I just missed a D, had to wait close to 8 minutes (!) for another, and meanwhile an A, a C, and another A passed us on the express track. But then we passed the A and met up with the C at 59th.
Not surprisingly, it was a madhouse in the front at 59th as people from the 10-car D train tried to get into the 8-car C train. I was in the front car of the D, and amazingly, in rush hour with an A stuck behind it, the C held its doors open so long that I was able to get into the not-as-crowded 2nd car of the C.
Was the B not running? There's supposed to be B service through all of this, even though the SB midday B is simply a Manhattan-only version of the D that terminates on a different track at 34th.
A month or two ago, on a Sunday, I was waiting at 81st for a SB C; I needed to transfer at 59th to an A to get to south Queens. I watched a D, an A, an A, and a D go by on the express track, followed by a C on the express track, before a jam packed C finally stopped for us. (And people wonder why I think the D should run local when the B doesn't run? With the A running at 10-minute headways, it would have saved me 20 minutes of waiting on the platform.)
I think the B is supposed to run, but out of 5 trains I saw headed downtown (D, A, C, A, D), none was a B.
Are they running anything besides R-68s on the D now? D trains are limited to 8-car R-68 consists.
ummm,no.and also the B and D have always used 8 cars.the R68's being 75 feet long only permit 8 of those cars to fit in the stations so its nothing new.
Sorry. I'm home today. Tomorrow I'll be on the N and back on the B on Friday. I'll look tomorrow.
The N? Since when are you on the N? Have you been talking to Fred lately?
Holidays are weird. The only reasonable EARLY job I could get in the South was an N put-infrom CIY. I start at 0556, clear at 1428 and get paid 9h30m.
Heh, I completely forgot that tomorrow was a holiday. Yes, you definitely want an early job. Everything's running on Sunday schedules except for some extra service on a few lines in the evening, right? (Some sort of V service would be really nice, but I don't expect to see any.)
Tomorrow is a Saturday schedule.
Really? The published schedules all say that Sunday service runs on New Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day.
No V in either case. Some people are going to be very confused trying to get to the fireworks.
Stations is operating on a Sunday schedule today and regular on Friday. This means if a part-time booth or a stairway is closed Sunday it will be closed today (7/4/02). Note- in some areas supervision will have a stairway or part-time booth open for crowd control.
The GO says it is due to switch 133 A & 133B being taken out of service, but neglects to say where exactly this switch is. As a guess, since the homeball at the south end of 59 St on the local track is X132, the switch causing the problem is just south of 59 St. More tomorrow, when I get back on the B.
That would be either the switch that allows the C to continue down the local track past 59th or the switch the D takes to get from the express track to 6th Avenue. The latter makes sense -- when the B isn't running, the D can switch from the express to the local north of 59th and then use the switch the B normally uses, but weekdays the local track there is too crowded, so the C and D have to switch places, and the C is stuck on the express from 145th to Canal. Tell me if I'm close.
Has anybody here stood at the railfan window on an A or C heading south out of 59th lately? How does the switch look?
I would not be surprised if the MTA is testing routes (along with the construction, if there is any construction). It's very rare to have construction-related reroutes during RUSH HOURS. I rarely say this about any routing plan, but if the MTA plans to run the A, C and D this way then I think it's a TERRIBLE plan. Riders in the Bronx and Westchester would be shafted.
From what I've seen, they're more riders using the Concourse than the A/C lines north of 145 Street, particularly during rush hours. In addition to this, Bronx riders generally have a longer trip to Midtown (or lower Manhattan) than the riders coming from Washington Heights/Inwood area. With all this in mind, logically, at least one of the trains from the Concourse should run express in Manhattan. Yes, I've heard it's only a three minute difference, thanks to all of those speed timers on the CPW Express track. However, if I'm a rider who has to make the trek from the Bronx or Westchester to midtown, I do not want to hear about spending an unnecessary extra three minutes.
Another serious flaw has to do with the lack of options on the CPW. There's no 8th Ave service at CPW Local stations. There's no 6th Ave service on the express track. As it has already been stated before, 59 St-Columbus Circle would be a mess thanks to everyone trying to transfer. People at 50 St-8th Ave heading uptown would HAVE to transfer regardless whether they want an express or local station. Imagine these riders having to use the E during rush hours in either direction.
I hope that this CPW re-routing is temporary, a plan needed because of some SERIOUS flaw on a track somewhere. I hope that this is NOT a plan that the MTA implements in the future. I feel pretty bad for Concourse riders who has to put up with this.
> In any case, the way service is running now, at nights and weekends
> there's no direct access from local stations to 6th Avenue,
> but on weekdays there's no direct access from local stations to 8th Avenue.
Can't people transfer at 59th Street?
- Lyle Goldman
Of course they can, but then it's not direct service.
You try convincing people at CPW stations that they need to take the train that comes and transfer at 59th. Some will continue to stubbornly wait.
Some will continue to stubbornly wait.
Let them! After about an hour they'll go upstairs and take a cab, more space for the rest of us!
Or go upstairs and change to the IRT.
I'm referring to the ones at local stations (who can't get the C anymore), none of which have transfers to the IRT upstairs. The IRT is 10-15 minutes away from most CPW local stations -- and isn't the IRT crowded enough already?
so what else is new,thats how dumb people are.
Is there a Subway Station in NYC that is Air conditioned?? It would really do good for this damn heat. I went Downtown Brooklyn Today on the C Line from Nostrand Ave., and the station was hot as hell, the MTA should definately consider installing A/C units(Money, Money & More Money). Today it went up to about 94 degrees, at Nostrand Ave., it must have been 105 degress.
Grand Central on the 4/5/6 and there may be one more station that has A/C.
And by "A/C" I don't mean the subway lines.
I know what you meant by A/C.
Well, the TA, I think, calls them "air-cooling units," which takes air from above ground, cools it, and spews it out, unlike "air-conditioning," where air is blown over freon or other gas and then comes out through tunes, correct me if I am wrong...
BTW, 14th St-Union Square (4/5/6 and L platforms) have fans...
Cleanairbus
The Hell with the damn Fans! We need A/C units and fast!
damn straight, brotha
when you put in the billions of dollars necessary, then you can have air conditioning. You act as if its the easiest thing in the world to do.
1. MTA= VERY little $$
2. Air Conditioning= A LOT of $$
Hmm...
And while we're installing Air Conditioning, let's allow our fleet of fairly old trains (R32, R38, R40/40M, R42, R44, R46)to run another 20 years until we can make up the money we lost putting in Air Conditioning.
Fans actually do help somewhat. Compare the temperature inside an R-33 single versus an R-36 without functioning A/C and you'll see.
It's a convection oven vs conventional oven in any subway car with no A/C on an 100 degree day like today.
Take a ride on WMATA on some humid summer rush hour day in D.C. -- their stations are air-conditioned, but most of the time you've got to stand right under the vents to get any real effect. And those stations are far deeper underground and with vaulted roofs, which (theoretically) should allow the warmer air to rise above the platforms.
Putting in enough AC units to cool a low-ceiling IRT Contract 1/2 station (especially an express stop) with waterproofed walls that hold in heat would be a pretty costly venture, though I suppose they could plop a few 20-ton units into the center median vents on the upper Broadway line (you can just picture the NIMBYs howling already about all that hot air blowing up onto the street, can't you?).
If the MTA really did want to experiment, putting some AC units in the few NYCTA stations that do have vaulted roofs to allow the hot air to rise (B'way-Nassau/High/York on the A/C, 168th on the 1/9, Clark on the 2/3) would be the best places to start.
Your idea about the upper broadway line might work if the vents went 6 feet above the surface of the center median... nobody on the street would feel the heat.
Actually, IIRC, 168 on the 1 line doesn't too overly hot due to its depth. I know for a fact it does not get very cold in the winter. Can anybody add to the heat of this station recently?
What about 181st/GWB Station????? [On the 1] Doesn't that have a similiar ceiling to 168th? Orrrrrrrrrr what about Roosevelt Island? (I know it's a high ceiling, but what about a trial run there?)
That is the definition of 'air conditioning'. You don't need to use a chemistry set to do it. The way the system at GCT works is the same way it works in most large buildings. There is a cooling unit that DOES contain freon (or ammonia), which is used to cool water that is then circulated through blowers within the area to be cooled. This reduces the amount of chemical coolant required for the system, which in turn reduces the costs associated with the system. You also don't have to worry so much about chemicals leaking, since the chemicals don't circulate outside the cooling unit.
-Hank
Doesn't "coolant" fit in there somewhere. And an A/C also takes hot air as well while putting cold air in. Ever put a thin piece of paper in front of an A/C and have it sucked into the filter?
Yes. Read my post again.
A home A/C unit functions differently from a commercial unit in that it actually cools and recycles room air, rather than drwing fresh air in from the outside, cooling it, and blowing it out indoors. This is usually more efficient, since once the unit is running, it's sucking in pre-cooled air. Most room A/C units have an 'air exchanger' vent, which can draw fresh air as well as recycle room air.
-Hank
Wow, I didn't know that. That used to be one of the hottest stations. How does it work though? Doesn' the trains suck all the hot ait from the tunnels in, and when leaving, suck all of the cold air out? It seems like it would be a loosing battle to air condition a subway station, especially at a station like Grand Central, where there never seems to not be a train in the station.
It is. The only reason the did it is because they are "borowing" drinking water from the street and pumping it through coils. They aren't burning money on a compressor/heat pump system.
the air conditioning doesn't really cool the whole patform level. It might affect the temp a little bit, but to really feel the cool air, you have to stand right under the "air-cooling unit." I think there are about 3 or 4 units per platform.
I think the whole thing only gives a few degrees benefit but sometimes that is enough so you don't pass out.
Grand Central. 4,5,6 platforms, big black units on the celing.
Ok, where do you place the heat/cooling exchange unit? We got ours on the roofs of serveral buildings. Since this whole city had short buildings, it is not that much of a problem.
And which city would that be?
- Lyle Goldman
Wash DC. Does someone else have AC in their stations too?
The New York subway and its cars were designed to be ventilated, not air conditioned. The whole problem revolves around the fact that air conditioning doesn't really make hot air cool--it simply transfers the heat from one place to another, PLUS the heat of operator the air conditioners is added the heat transferred.
So we would have to contemplate semi-sealing the stations and transfering the heat alrady inside the station (including from hundreds of warm bodies) PLUS the heat from inside the subway cars PLUS the heat generated by the train a/c PLUS the heat generated in actually air conditioning the stations, all out onto the street.
Yikes!
Get rid of the resistor coils on all the trains. Wasn't the R-142 supposed not have resiator coils because they have Alternating Current engines?
Gee, it's that simple, why didn't any of the people who spend everyday thinking about these things think of that? You should be making six figures with ideas like that. Start your own consulting firm.
Why did David Gunn get rid of most of Amtrak Conslutants?
Cause he's looking for people with brilliant ideas, just like yourself!
Was quite brutal in Main street on the 7 line and 42nd and 6th. Wherever the trains sit around blowing hot air, it's over 100 in these.
the trouble with air conditioning stations is:
a) They're poorly sealed, thus you'd be blowing cool air out all over.
b) The A/C loads would likely be amazingly high. Remember - the A/C system would not only have to absorb heat from hot air comming in, but people, subway air conditioning, and...braking loads. Yes, that's where all that energy goes when you stop a train, no matter how you do it. You'd need to site condensor units and evaporators and all those goodies, and maintain them.
If the NYCTA had platform edge doors and good air exchange in the tunnels, it might approach a reasonable cost to run A/C in stations, but even then, it would be a lot. And the subway wasn't designed for edge doors (which wouldn't work in lots of places anyway)
The problem is, you're just putting way too much heat into the tunnels....
> <i>might</b>
Since when do we close an I tag with a /B tag? You're ruining the rest of the page. Don't you preview?
- Lyle Goldman
Simple emphasis tags don't warrant a preview, unless you use enough that you end up confusing yourself. 99% of the time everything is fine!
And the page was still quite legible.
Maybe I'm just showing my age, but I don't recall hot stations being as much of a problem in the "good old days" before the subway trains were air conditioned. One would think that being underground would normally be somewhat cooler than at street level.
I think there are two issues here:
1. The extra heat generated by the A/C units on the trains.
2. The contrast between an air conditioned train and non-air conditioned stations makes the stations feel even hotter.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed, You are exactly right. Studies of heat in subway tunnels go back to the planning of the first subway. Certain stations (Grand Central, notably) have always had such a heat problem that A/C may be the only answer. Otherwise it was an issue of propert ventilation, and YES, stations are hotter because of the A/C units on the train.
Air conditioning stations is problematic--it's like this--suppose you have two rooms in your house that you want to buy wall A/C units for. Where do you put the units? In a window or an outside wall, of course, so the heat can be dispersed outside. If you did it the way the subway system does, you would place the air conditioner for one room so that it vented into the other room. Then you would put a humongous air conditioner in the second room vented to the outside which would have to remove the heat from both rooms as well as the heat generated by the units themselves.
Int he "good old days" there were more vents in the subway. Now half the vent have been sealed up. At Union Turnpike near the water leak they closed off %70 of the vents. Also the subways used to have vents that were electrically controled. Now they have been, I would guess becuase of deffered mantenance, left to rust apart being fully open. If you look into the vents at 179st you see there are the rods that controlled them broken off but still there.
I'm surpised that they didnt make the new subway stations like along Archer Av. And 63st Air Conditioned. I would think it would be easier since they were building these stations from scatch.
At least one of them (Sutphin Boulevard) was supposed to be air-conditioned, but budgetary constraints precluded it. There was to be a cooling tower at 144th Place.
David
At Parsons/Archer, there is duct work in the locker rooms and crew room and other places for air conditioning. After that was done, they stopped the project due to cost.
When will this website be updated with pictures & more information?? After a while, I get tired of looking at the same pics over and over again, same goes with the information.
Err some of us are gathering more information during this nice sunny (but humid) summer so you can review them in the fall.
BTW What line did you railfan today and what were your impressions?
Will be going on Hudsen Line tomorrow and later this week on the Harlem, I will get to see the diesels there.
I took the C Line today from Nostrand Ave. - Jay Street with my friend to walk around and buy some games, so I didn't really railfan the subway today.
Did you think of visiting Public Affairs at NYCT HQ to pick up a few items?
Hey you are welcome, provided Mr Pirmann approves of the pictures, to get out there and take your own pictures. Get a cheap disposable camera, and take some subway pictures, after the camera is spent, just get a photo cd from the developer. If you can get out in the subway, just start taking pictures of everything. Someday, the R32 will be gone, if you get photos now, you can put to rest all kinds of problems later, since it is now that they are in the configuration that works, and that is the one that most people will be intrested in someday. I notice from most of you posts that you are reasonably close to the A/C Fulton Ave subway, heck, one day when you're bored, drop 6 bucks, get a cheapo camera, drop another 2 bucks to get into the subway and start snapping.
The IND Fulton Subway's area on this site is mostly the work of one man, Wayne Whitehorne, with the inevitable sprinkling of Joe Testagrose pictures. Past Grant Ave., most of the pictures are about 30 or so years old, all you have to do is shoot some pictures of a station, and after grant ave, it's all elevated, so you don't even need a flash. If you don't feel safe getting off the train and waiting for another, either go somewhere else, or just stick your head out the door and snap the platform (Ok, the T/Os or C/Rs may not approve of this advice, but how many railfans are there out there, like one for every train?).
I have some photos of various things, like 10 rolls of film, dating back nearly two years, if I ever get it developed, I'll definitely consider sending Mr Pirmann some of my better stuff.
Good luck with your pictures, NYCsubway.org is made by it's readers.
Nostrand Ave. is the closest Subway Station to me and the A Line is what I take to school everyday (except the summer), Actually, the LIRR is closest to me, 3 short blocks away. I live in Crown Heights, Brooklyn.
There you go, just go out one day when you have some time, and start taking pictures, I would advise to get a 35 mm camera, so that you can develop your own pictures and such, but a 35 mm camera can run rather high, and also the chemicals for developing pictures can be expensive. Like I said, any pictures would be good, even if your initial attempts suck, just throw them out, grin and bear the money, and get more film, eventually you'll learn not to take pictures into the sun and other things. NYCsubway.org is not just the resonsibilty of David Pirmann, but also all those who view his website, we all have a responsiblity to add whatever we can to improve the site.
Thankx! I had an awful good time taking all those pictures. I think I finished up Fulton IND in 1999 or so. It's been a while since I've contributed, and for that I am fallible. To wit: I just did a two-day fan trip in DC on June 24-25, and I have FIVE ROLLS (5x25) of station and train pictures, most of these (IMHO) are fine quality. Every time I try and convince myself to get off my ass and start scanning them, the lazy side of me (the one on my left shoulder) finds a way to keep me from doing it. I just have to get off my duff and get moving again.
wayne
The sticking yer head out part would make great slapstick...But alas in about 4-5 years all of the subways in Hong Kong will not allow that, because of those stupid things called PLATFORM SCREEN DOORS!
Don't let the PLATFORM SCREEN DOOR happen to you, kids! Save yourselves before New York gets even AN INKLING of the idea! Run....run...runnnnnnnn!!!!
If you feel so strongly that there's something missing from this site, I'm sure nobody would object to you going out and doing some footwork yourself.
Once upon a time I looked at this site and was miffed that there was no line-by-line description of Chicago's CTA system, as there was with most of the other US systems featured here. So instead of bitching about it here on SubTalk, I went out with a camera and notepad and did the whole system myself. It took me a long time to get all the photos scanned and the text written up, but at least it was done.
-- David
Chicago, IL
All this talk of contributing to the site reminds me...I have a mess of scanned images of San Diego's Coaster commuter trains that I meant to send in. Need 'em, Dave?
By all means, Acela, go take some pictures and send them in. You'll enjoy this site a whole lot more once you've made it your own by contributing. I sometimes go look at the ones I've posted just for the ego trip. :)
Mark
Well, as with most FREE things, if you don't like it, you're free to go elsewhere.
Thit's why they call it free. "Acela", cut Dave some slack.
Noooooo!!! I wasn't getting angry or anything, I just haven't seen the website being updated in so long.
Uh, gee, instead of complaining, why not volunteer to "add information" to this site or take your own pictures and ask Dave to have them posted.
--Mark
I don't think Dave has a lack of contributors. He has about 70 photos from me which isn't up yet. He's probably just too busy to load up them right now.
I don't think Dave has a lack of contributors. He has about 70 photos from me which isn't up yet. He's probably just too busy to load up them right now.
Quite true... he's got a half dozen of mine as well that are still pending. What with his recent move and working full time - you and I know that he has a real job and that this website is simply a hobby, but there are some posters out there that don't seem to be conscious of that fact - he simply hasn't had time to put them up.
But to the originator of this thread - go ahead, take pictures (send your best ones to Dave), study the history of the lines, focus on some area of minutiae and learn all you can about it, then write it up and offer it to Dave. If it serves to expand our collective knowledge, chances are he'll include it on the site. (And if it needs some editing for style and grammar, you can send it to me first - I'll be glad to review and clean up your text. Just put it in a straight text email rather than as an attachment, I don't do Microsoft anything around here.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How true...
(I've got about 40-50 still outstanding myself.)
Uh, gee, I wasn't complaining, I just wanted to know why the site hasn't been updated in so long.
That's REALLY rude. I can't believe you wrote that.
You know, people have to work, and have families, and have things to do with their lives.
How can you possibly complain about this website? This is a fantastic website, which takes a LOT of work, I'm sure, to keep up.
If you don't see anything new here, then go look at other parts of the website...I'm sure you haven't read the whole thing.
Plus, there are a lot of other websites to go look at.
like he and they said
Like I said I wasn't complaining, I just wanted to know when was the site gonna be updated, Damn!
OK, but next time don't make your comments sound so accusatory.
If you had said something like: "This site has not been updated in a while, does anyone know when it will be updated again?", then you would not put everyone on the defensive and gotten reactions like you did.
I agree.
This site is here your and (our)enjoyment not for your convenience (the same applies to Harry's site and the sites of others).
Updates are at the webmasters discretion and leasure.
IIRC - AcelaExpress is a teenager. I won't say anything else.
But I'm sure the Pig will.
AcelaExpress is a teenager. I won't say anything else.
As David so rightly replied, I will.
AcelaExpress obviously isn't the brightest bulb in the bulb box, but it has nothing to do with the fact that, unlike you, he has fewer than 100 billion Frequent Orbital MilesTM. Since Acela isn't an interplanetary astronaut, the number of times he has gone around the sun means nothing.
>>> Since Acela isn't an interplanetary astronaut, the number of times he has gone around the sun means nothing <<<
Maybe you haven't noticed it yet, but there are wisdom cards to be picked up on each orbit, somewhat like brass rings on a carousel. Some gain wisdom with increased orbits, some do not.
Tom
These wisdom cards do not exist, as only astronauts can reach out of the sides of the Earth and grab things.
These wisdom cards do not exist ...
You just proved Old Tom's statement. Just because you haven't picked up any of them yet does not mean they don't exist. Indeed, it is possible that you have picked up a few but simply haven't accumulated enough to realize it yet :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think so.
No matter how much you try, I will never believe in the myth that is "age." These metaphorical wisdom cards are just another concoction made up by the establishment to continue to oppress a group of people. Because it's no longer fashionable to put down inferior races or the inferior sex, they no longer exist. Age classism is the same.
well maybe if i get this job with MTA Metro North, i can get some exclusive pictures.
What job? I'm taking the Assistant Conductor's test on the 11th in N.White Plains. Could it be that one??
Are you new to this board? If so Welcome to SubTalk!
I ain't even gonna say anything...I was talking to the poster of the message before mine (in the thread)....don't get me riled up, since I'm still in a unA/C'd room [after work] and it's still hot as hell here.
Buzz off. There....that's the extent of what I'm gonna say.
Can we look forward to your contributions to the site?
In the Metro Area we have the following that could be done
Shore Line East
LIRR line-by-line for those branches we dont have
NJT- Port Jervis, Main, Bergen, Pascack Lines; Gladstone Branch
Do you go on vacation- perhaps you ccan cover the rail system where you go on vacation?
Contrary to popular belief, our terrifc webmaster does not sit 24/7 at his PC awaiting material to add to the site. All material submitted has to be approved by him and he adds to the site when he can.
I have some contributions. Take a look at "Around New York" and "GRAND CENTRAL" and "NJ TRANSIT" then "Newark Division - Northeast Corridor."
You'll see the photos I took at Metuchen, Edison, and New Brunswick. I can post the photos Dave didn't put on the site if anyone wants.
NOTICE TO ALL OF THE NEGATIVE THREADS ...............please note !
well then go and make your OWN TRANIST WEBSITES like i do also
I thank Mr. David Pirmann for this site at least we could all say
>>>>>>>>THANK YOU<<<<<<<<<< ...........!!!! i do !!!
Typical Salaamallah good photo.
thankz !! appreciate dat !
Well - at least the RFW keeps you happy.
Looks like the train they used in the movie "Speed".
i do remember a los angeles subway train in some movie somewhere
guess i will have to look up the movie (speed) ............
Volcano. (Tommy Lee Jones and Ann Heche)
oh yea !! ok saw the ads however i will check it out soon !!
thankz !!
Yer welcome mon.
Not only am I a railfan, but I'm also the moviebuff.
my son is into making movies with his low bubget self ...........
you know student and experemental films etc...
i am into shooting transit videos / digital stills etc........
oh well...........boooooooooooooooorrrrrrrriinnnnnnggg???
lol !!
my son is into making movies with his low budget self ...........
you know student and experemental films etc...
i am into shooting transit videos / digital stills etc........
oh well...........boooooooooooooooorrrrrrrriinnnnnnggg???
lol !!
Don't you worry, I'm sure you'll find all of the stuff I took from Hong Kong last month will be quite stimulating for you...as soon as it's posted on the site, that is.
-J!
Hi,
I've been backlogged on contributions because I've got a bunch of other (better paying) projects that need my time right now. Sorry to those who have sent me items and I've been lagging.
Anyway, I was out in California this weekend myself and got some new photos, here's one to tide you vultures over.. :-)
One word. Wow!
E_DOG
Curb side pick up? I thought only buses did that! :-)
A trackless trolley.
>>> Curb side pick up? <<<
One of the minor advantages of designing the line as a tourist attraction (this is near Fisherman's Wharf) rather than basic transportation.
Tom
>>One of the minor advantages of designing the line as a
tourist attraction (this is near Fisherman's Wharf) rather
than basic transportation.<<
NOT! While the riders may be headed to tourist attractions once they drop fares it IS BASIC TRANSPORTATION. Besides giving the trolley car the curb lane in a NO parking block is safer for riders and easier for layovers between runs.
Brooklyn and Philadelphia, among other cities, had boarding islands for streetcars in some locations.
Some of the boarding islands from Third Avenue Railways, still
exist under the EL on Westchester Avenue in the Bronx for the
rubber tired vehicles.
;-) Sparky
If it were basic transportation, they would have used a fleet of same, new cars. The designers had more in mind.
Boy, if I could ride that to work, I'd shoot my car.
Nice shot, Dave... thanks for posting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
snazzy!
Ah yes, San Francisco. That's a great railfanning city!
Studying the paint scheme on this particular PCC in the city on the
bay, it looks like the representative of the city, that ordered but
never ran its PCCs in service prior to selling same to Cleveland. Louisville
;-) Sparky
SF does have a PCC in that scheme but that wasn't it. Check the newly revamped F Line page for a roster.
Dave, Thanks for the link for this lazy one.
BTW, you DO like night shots & take excelent photo then too !
Mr rt__:^)
Dave, close but no cigar ... It's Muni 1058 in the 1936 Chicago CTA
paint scheme. As one seasons, preception diminishes.
;-) Sparky
Right. The original poster was asking if it was the Louisville PCC in the picture. I said that it was not.
Dave, I was the original poster, and it was conjecture.
As stated, >>>"As one seasons, perception diminishes"<<<
and it was a night shot.
;-) Sparky
No problemo, we all understand very, very thoroughly.
Whenever Dave has the time.
I am thinking about just roaming the system tomorrow and taking some photos outdoors. Maybe Brooklyn and catch some R-40's on the Brighton. Anyone want to come? E-Mail me. It would be around 5 or 6 PM. I will decide on the number of responses I get :)
This is kind of late. I will be railfanning on NYC tomorrow but I don't have any real plans, I would come.
Im debating about the Brighton or the Sea Beach lines. I will check my E-Mail sometime in the aftrenon. So let me know. NYant78@AOL.COM
Well good luck! It's gonna be hot down there. Sorry I can't join you, it's just too damn hot. Stayin inside an air conditioned building all day!
What are "New Haven Railroad SPVs"?
The 'seldomly powered vehicle'. One of Budd's more interesting failures. It was an attempt to replace the RDC with a newer design. they were notorious for power plant failures and inability to run in general. IIRC, there were plenty of engineering changes to them to shut up the unions and various other concerns. They were certainly biazzre too - pneumatic throttles and such. A few remain at MN's dead line. They were buiilt in the early 80's, and pretty much were Budd's last gasp, along with the M-3s and such.
Also, a few are in service on Shore Line East (as non-powered trailers).
Did they have cantanary? Third rail? Where were their diesel engines?
No, SPVs were strictly diesel-powered. They never ran into Penn Station or Grand Central Terminal. On Metro-North, they were used only as shuttles from Waterbury to Bridgeport and from Danbury to Norwalk on the New Haven Line, from Poughkeepsie to Croton-Harmon on the Hudson Line, and from Dover Plains to Brewster on the Harlem Line. On Amtrak they ran from Springfield to New Haven on the Inland Route. I don't think they ran any further than New Haven or Springfield in Amtrak service.
I think that's about it for where the SPVs ran. Did other railroads run them or have any plans to purchase SPVs for use?
I'm not 100% on this, but I believe the diesel engines were under the floor, and they were 'direct' drive, as opposed to diesel/electric like most locomotives. Only one truck was powered. The engine connected to a transmission, and the tranny to the wheels, just like your Chevy Nova.
-Hank (pun intended)
Right about the engines being under the floor, but they had a hydraulic transmission.
Each truck was powered, albeit on only one axle.
Diesel hydraulic locomotives have existed (I believe Krause-Maffei built a few) but were judged not to be practical and performed poorly compared to diesel-electric.
Diesel-mechanical (eg through a transmission) may be OK for a relatively light-weight single-unit DMU, but its use would be ridiculous on any kind of mainline MU or pulled train service.
"Diesel hydraulic locomotives have existed (I believe Krause-Maffei built a few)"
Actually more than a few. When diesel first replaced steam, the Western Region of British Rail went for diesel-hydraulics with Krauss-Maffei transmissions in a big way, had a fleet that probably ran into hundreds, and operated most of their express services with them for quite a while. British railfans had some affection for them -- they were distinctive, a bit different from the general run of boring diesel-electric locos.
"Diesel-mechanical (eg through a transmission) may be OK for a relatively light-weight single-unit DMU, but its use would be ridiculous on any kind of mainline MU or pulled train service"
Again, when Britain first dieselized in the 1950s and early 1960s, the first-generation DMUs were mostly diesel-mechanical. You could hear the gear changes; you could see the driver changing gear if you were in the railfan seat right behind the cab. They weren't just single cars; most were in two- or three-car units, and these were sometimes coupled together into longer trains. I have seen eight- or nine-car DMU trains made up of these first-generation cars. A very small number of them still exist -- I saw a two-car unit in revenue service at Manchester Piccadilly station just the other day. As I remember they had a speed limit of 75. The second-generation DMUs in the UK (from the "Sprinter" class 150s on up) are all diesel-electric, and more recent models like the 158s and 170s can do 100 m.p.h. On trips with relatively frequest stops, they can give overall journey times better than the 125 mph "High Speed Trains", because they have better acceleration.
Fytton.
A very interestinbg post.
Did they ever stall?
Most of them have been converted to unpowered coaches; a few may have been converted to cab control cars for SLE.
-Hank
There are some cab controlled SPV's running on Shore Line East, saw it today in Stamford.
At one point Metro-North used them for service on the Hudson line between Croton-Harmon and Poughkeepsie. They were easily strangest railroad car I've ever ridden. The first time I rode one... When it starting accelerating I was thinking... "what the heck is this thing" - especially when it got up to speed and sounded like it shifted onto a higher gear.
Wayne
Budd cars (RDC's) and SPV's are not necessarily a dead concept, it was just a pity about implementation. This SPV sounds like it was a diesel-mechanical DMU, I'm not surprised that it had problems given the kind of weight it was being asked to push around. Hydraulic transmission, with two 600hp truck engines, one pushing each truck with separate transmissions, should function pretty well. Time for someone else to try again perhaps? I can certainly see three-car DMU's running on Amtrak's Springfield line. That line simply doesn't have the traffic for locomotive haulage.
AEM7
Budd RDC's operated through a shush drive so they were basically diesel hydraulic.
Were the SPVs direct drive or diesel combustion-generator-electric engines on trucks?
I think direct drive via an automatic transmission.
Budd RDC's had a Detroit Diesel 6-71 (inline) engine with a two-speed hydraulic transmission. The engine was the same as in GM "Old Look" transit buses (pre-1959).
Budd SPV's had a Detroit Diesel 6V92 engine and the same transmission. The 6V92 engine was in most RTS transit buses...but not all (NYCTA had quite a few with 6V71's as I understand).
Budd RDCs had a pair of Detroit 6-110 engines, same as the classic Greyhound Super 7 Scenicruiser bus.
No, the Greyhound "Super 7 Scenicruiser" -- in reality the MCI MC-7 "Challenger" did NOT use a 6-110 engine. It did not have ANY 6 cylinder engine. (The GM PD4501 Scenicruiser originally had TWO 4-71 engines, and due to synchronization problems, they were re-engined with the 8V71's in the mid-1950's.)
It used a Detroit Diesel 8V71 engine. I worked on, and drove, all too many of them. The 8V71 started use in tour/charter buses with the GM PD4106 and MCI MC-5's (both around the same time) and was basically the bus industry standard for many years until the 6V92 came out in late 1979.
Prior to the 8V71, the "standard" engine in GM and MCI buses was the 6-71 in line engine....
>>> Time for someone else to try again perhaps? I can certainly see three-car DMU's running on Amtrak's Springfield line. That line simply doesn't have the traffic for locomotive haulage. <<<
Someone else is trying again. The Colorado Railcar Company is developing a new DMU that they are saying meets FRA crash standards. Bombardier, Alstom and Siemens also build DMUs that are doing quite well overseas. All would be good candidates for the Hartford-Springfield line.The old ADtranz Flexliners would have allowed through service to New York, Philly and DC to continue. The Flexliner came in both diesel and electric versions and both can operate in the same train from what I read about it. That would allow a diesel Flexliner to come down to New Haven from Springfield and be attached onto an electric Flexliner that came from Boston and the entire train could continue on to Washington. No need to change locomotives or do complex switching routines to combine trains like they used to do before the wires were extended to Boston.
The crappyness of DMU's aside. They would never preform a couple at New Haven. It takes too long. You have to connect all the air pipes, HEP and MU jumpers as well as preform a brake test. Accross-the-platform transfers are more efficient.
It probably does, and that may be why Amtrak reduced the Springfield line to primarily shuttle service with connecting trains at New Haven. The way Amtrak used to combine southbound trains at New Haven really took too long, with all that switching and locomotive-changing that had to be done, so cross-platform transfers are better than that.
You guys need to think about track capacity, and asset utilization...
But it's true, from a customer standpoint, it's better to have just a cross-platform transfer.
AEM7
While you may think that about the DMU's we have used (i.e. Budd RDC's...) the Adtranz Flexliner trains did it all automatically...and could actually do it while moving under 15 miles an hour. Autompatic couplings, etc.
Colarado's units is about 20 years behind current state of the art. It's cast truck, no air bag suspension, not monobody, carbon steel, and about 30,000 lbs lighter than even an FRA compliant DMU should be. Given the past history of the company, and their (lack of) experience building rail cars, I doubt it'll go anywhere.
Aren't they the very same company that had the contract to build the rolling stock for the "Marlboro Train" a few years ago?
See what happened there.....NOTHING.
The two EMD F59PHI locomotives, PMCX 0001 and PMCX 0002 were built, and sat for a long time at the Livingston (MT) Rebuild Center. They were sold to Metrolink (southern California) about 18 months ago and they are Metrolink 882 and 883.
Yes, they are. Supposedly, they're going to test the DMU with the MBTA, but I suspect even the (T), weary of junk, wouldn't buy them. Not that I don't give the company credit for trying, but they're quite litterally 20 years late and a few tons short. Only a moron would order a carbon steel railcar today - stainless is lighter, stronger, lasts longer. Ditto for not having airbag suspension, which is all but standard in any type of passenger car today.
They need to take another 1 or 2 passes through the design and start otimising it.
Intertestingly, they claim it outperforms and EMU, yet their EMU benchmark is 0 - 55mph in 1 minute, slower than any MU I know of in the US. If you math out the power : weight ratio they quote for the 'comparison' EMU, it works to a 125,000 lb car with 400hp. I don't know of any cars with those specs in the US, except maybe the ACMUs, but those are effectively obsolete technology.
Here is a blurb from Trainweb.net
During the April - July 1980 time frame thirteen SPV2000's (Self Propelled Vehicle that would go into the year 2000) were manufactured and delivered to the Connecticut Department of Transportation for use in Amtrak and local shuttle service. Most of the SPV's were destined for use on Amtrak's "Inland Route" from New Haven, Conn. To Springfield, Mass. Via Hartford, Conn. Others would cover the shuttle service on both the Danbury Line from Danbury to South Norwalk, Conn., and the Waterbury Line from Waterbury to Bridgeport, Conn. This was Budd"s last gasp to bring back the "old" Budd Car in a modern new model.
Bud's idea that the RDC would return once again, didn't pan out. The harsh New England weather raised havoc with various systems. The Self Propelled Vehicle came to be known as the Seldom Powered Vehicle. Numerous breakdowns occurred thus necessitating calling a diesel out to rescue the train. Other cars caught fire causing other problems. After just over five years in service all were withdrawn from service.
Most of the dead SPV's were stored in New Haven, Conn., while others were stored in Wilmington, DE. The Connecticut Department of Transportation facing some expansion problems needed some more passenger equipment to cover and protect routes. However, the funds just didn't exist to purchase new. Arrangements were made with Amtrak's Wilmington Shops to rebuild the remaining fleet into modern coaches and cab cars. Out of the original thirteen car fleet would emerge four cab cars and seven coaches.
MNRR also had some and although they were very maintainence intensive, they managed to keep them running enough to haul 7 round trips a day.
Here's a pic:
YEp, thats what saw on the SLE train.
Athern's RDCs were driven with RUBBER BANDS! These did not prove to be so reliable either, and so on my railroad, we stripped out the motors and use them as cab cars on push-pull consists. Extra control stands from theses cars were used to convert two conventional consists into push pull service. (Those trainsets have hotel power provided by motor generator sets in the combine car, allowing any loacomotive to handle the train.)
Elias
Not only were Athearn's RDC's powered that way, but also early versions of the F-7's, GP-9's, and "Hustler" industrial switchers. It was known as the "Hi-F" drive; designed in the 1950's and lasted into 1961 the latest. The RDC's and Hustler kept them right to the end of their production runs.
There is a company that makes gearing replacement kits...it's known as Ernst Manufacturing. The kits cost around $12-15 each. There is a lot of negative comment about the Ernst conversion kits, but there is also some positive comment too -- in rec.models.railroad group in Usenet.
I, myself, geared one of the RDC.s The kit does one end only, and worked just fine for me. In fact, it worked fine enough that I did the other truck as well, with a second Ernst kit.
I tried the Ernst kits. They worked fine regearing some diesels, but I'd tate tem only fair in the RDCs. Maybe I am not a patient enough model builder to polish and fit all of the parts so exactingly.
Elias
I was involved with The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina for many years (the shop closed in 2001 after 55 years in business, but my direct involvement only spanned 1985-1996) and we sold and installed many, many Ernst regear kits in Hustler locos that people would bring us (they weren't in Athearn's current product line at that time). For the RDC cars, however, we simply slipped a length of silicone fuel line (for R/C aircraft) over the driveshafts; this actually made the cars run faster (and they already ran at warp 8) but it also eliminated the problem of shaft slippage and the consequent burning out of the rubber bands - an elegantly cheap solution ($3 per car, installed).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And in SD-40-2's they made them serious haulers particularly with some added lead two units 65 plus hoppers up curving 2.5 % grade.
Not only were Athearn's RDC's powered that way, but also early versions of the F-7's, GP-9's, and "Hustler" industrial switchers. It was known as the "Hi-F" drive; designed in the 1950's and lasted into 1961 the latest. The RDC's and Hustler kept them right to the end of their production runs.
There is a company that makes gearing replacement kits...it's known as Ernst Manufacturing. The kits cost around $12-15 each. There is a lot of negative comment about the Ernst conversion kits, but there is also some positive comment too -- in rec.models.railroad group in Usenet.
I, myself, geared one of the RDC.s The kit does one end only, and worked just fine for me. In fact, it worked fine enough that I did the other truck as well, with a second Ernst kit.
Those Ernst kits are sold by Walthers....
Are you talking about the RDCs that you can hold in your hand?
Sure. What size railroad do you own?
: ) Elias
Would wish to have 4 ft 8 inches railroad , have land in catskills.
How many SPV's did Metro North have , and what became of them?
I have seen some (i'm not sure how many cars, 1 or 2) that appear to be scrapped on a side track just north of Croton-Harmon.
about 8 cars were their on friday
A couple of posters have asked about the numbers and ownership of the SPV units. From Chuck Crouse's book Budd Car: The RDC Story (Weekend Chief Publishing, 1990) I offer the following roster (current as of 03 May 1989):
Serial #: 2000
Budd demonstrator, road number 2000, stored at Red Lion as of 12/88
Serial #: 2001-2006
State Railway of Morocco
Serial #: 2007
FRA track geometry car T-10
Serial #: 2008, 2012, 2015, 2017
ConnDot/Amtrak 999, 996, 993, 991, removed from service 12/85, stored at New Haven with fire damage as of 04/89
Serial #: 2009
ConnDot/CR/MNCR 50, in service MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2010
ConnDot/Amtrak 998, removed from service 12/85, being refurbished at Brewster by MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2011, 2013
ConnDot/Amtrak 997, 995, removed from service 12/85, stored at New Haven as of 04/89
Serial #: 2014
ConnDot/Amtrak 994, wrecked and burned at Springfield, MA 10 June 1984, stored Wilmington as of 04/89
Serial #: 2016
ConnDot/Amtrak 992, wrecked and burned 27 November 1983, restored MNCR Brewster 02/89, in service on MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2018
ConnDot/Amtrak 990, removed from service 12/85, being restored by MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2019
ConnDot/Amtrak 989, removed from service 12/85, in service on MNCR as of 04/88
Serial #: 2020
ConnDot/Amtrak 988, removed from service 12/85, restored MNCR Brewster 03/89, in service on MNCR as of 04/89
Serial #: 2021-2030
NYMTA/MNCR 290-299, refurbished by Delaware Car Corp., in service on MNCR as of 03/88
Serial #: 2031
Uncompleted shell and trucks, purchased for parts by MNCR
Three additional uncompleted shells were sold to Delaware Car 01/89; ten additional uncompleted shells remained at Red Lion as of that date.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At last I heard, from 1999, the SPVs were taken out of service as more Bombardier Comets coupled with FL-9s were preferred on the northern most lines. And I heard as of late '99 the SPVs on MNRR have all been scrapped, along with a fair number of the Pullman Standard 1100s.
i saw them in albany as late as 1999, they were painted red with CONNDOT logo on the side. i dont remember what the front looks like.
Lemme find foto
I rode a CDoT SPV last Thanksgiving, 2001.
Whew, boy was it hot in the subways today. Fortunately I had luck on my side as I traveled between Flushing and the GWB bus terminal.
Going I had an R62A which does a have a railfan window, on the Manhattan side. At Main street station it was hot, I measured 96 degrees on my thermometer. I got off the 7 at 5th ave and walked through the corridor, which was hot. But I decided to take a B or D up to 59th and catch the A, in order to avoid the corridor to 42nd and 8th, which must have been a real sauna.
A D train came and took it for a short ride to 59th street, where they let an A in front of us. Fortunately I did not wait too long for an A, an R44 A came and had a fast ride to 175th street. When I entered the bus terminal, it was real hot in there. No A/C!! What is wrong with the PA, it is a disgrace there's no A/C in there. 90 degrees in there. Fortunately the 171 bus to Garden State mall came right away, which is where I stayed most of the day.
Coming back, I was lucky again and did not have to wait long for an A train, also R44's. To be honest I didn't care what car class it was, as long as the A/C was crankin. The ride was pretty quick, even CPW was quick even though there were timers. I got off at 59th and made a B right across the platform. Got off at 42nd and walked through the corridor and just made it into a cool R62A 7 train as sweat was pouring down my face. At Main street-Flushing I got off and onto that brutal platform. Walking out of the station up the stairs hoping it would be cooler outside. It wasn't. It was 98 degrees at 7pm in Flushing, absolutely brutal!
Ditched into Macy's before my bus came.
Alot of nice lookin mystical ladies in dresses, but as Kool and the Gang would say, it is just "Too Hot" for any romance.
Coming back on the N21 bus, fortunately the A/C was on, as I was listening to "I'm on Fire" by the Bruce Springsteen on PLJ.
Fox 5 just had a report on the subways. They had a temp of almost 100 on the 7 platform at GCT, while the air coolers kept Lex riders cool in the mid 80s. They were also on a brutal Redbird with no A/C, where it was 97F.
No way I'd take a train without A/C, I'd wait for the next one!
Tomorrow is expected to be even worse, with temps around 100 degrees. Still a brutal 89F in Sea Cliff, we get all that heat blowing from inland on the west wind. At the beach right now it's in the mid 70s, just about the only bearable place outside tonight.
You know if you can afford to move, I heard it was -40 in Siberia.
That would be a grat place to you.
Nah, then he'd be bitching about people not shoveling the sidewalk.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
At that temperature? It's too cold to snow.
True, but he'd find something to bitch about. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Good thing about -40 is that it's the same in Farenheit and Celsius.
No. A degreee on Farenheit isn't the samething as one on celsius. The distance between 300 and 400 degrees F on thermometor isn't the same as 300 and 400 degrees C. 100 degrees on one side won't result in 100 degrees on the other side (not temperature but value). Celsius and Kelvin the degree is the same (but places for zero).
Your point? -40 degrees happens to refer to the same temperature in Celsius and in Fahrenheit.
NO.
Run it through the conversion.
Tc = (5/9)(Tf - 32)
Let Tf = -40. Then Tc = (5/9)(-40 - 32) = (5/9)(-72) = -360/9 = -40.
So -40°F = -40°C.
yes the 5/9 conpanstates for a degree in celcious not being the same length as a farenheit. You can't just add 32 to celcious and expect it to work.
Does it look like I just added 32? Then I would have ended up with -8. That's not what I ended up with.
I started with a temperature in Fahrenheit, namely -40. I subtracted 32, giving -72. I multiplied by 5, giving -360. I divided by 9, giving -40. That's the conversion formula from Fahrenheit to Celsius. So -40°C just happens to be the exact same temperature as -40°F. That doesn't work for any other number; -40 is special.
Minus 40 F = Minus 40 C. Perhaps a simpler way to write the formula than how David did is:
F = (9/5)C + 32.
Thus, F = (9/5)(-40) + 32;
F = (-360/5) + 32;
F = (-72) + 32;
F = -40.
When C = -40
then F = -40
Hmmm, just checked the weather forcast for Sibera at:
http://meteo.infospace.ru/cities/html/index.ssi
It say its +25c (about 77f) there now.
The vendors looked at me 'crazy' because I wear short sleeve shirts...through the winter. They're still wearing wool sweaters and caps...right now. One of my 'Komaraden' has a chalkboard on his car: 'Enjoy African Winter.' Gimme three feet of dry snow. CI Peter
When John Madden was coaching, he always wore shirtsleeves on the sidelines no matter how cold it was. I'm surprised he never caught pneumonia.
I don't have a/c in my apt. Fifth floor of a five story walk up. Nuff said. (luckily this is only for this summer. I'm not insane enough to get a lease on a place like this as my permanent home.)
Oh man I feel sorry for you! At least I have an A/C, although it can cool only one room. And when it's real hot outside it don't work that well, because my place is an old building with no insulation.
Still the 83 degrees right now in my A/C'd room feels alot more comfortable than the 90 degrees it is outside right now.
how many BTUs does it have?
It was a horror even in the municipal pool where I live in Hastings-on-Hudson where the water temperature exceeded 84 degrees today. At one point while swimming laps at the pool today, I had to get out of the water and leave the pool facility for a while since my strength was fading. I walked to the downtown area of Hastings-on-Hudson and the relief for a short time was the library where there was air conditioning. I went back to the municipal pool later on recovered from the little bit of heat prostration that I experienced earlier. I swam some more laps once again, but I periodically had to get out of the water to take cool shower to keep myself from overheating. The only benefit the hot weather has on me and this is rather dubious, is that my minor cleft palate doesn't bother me that much. It is kind of dubious since I'm trading one misery for another.
Getting to the subject of trains, I wonder how many cars on Metro-North had no A/C today?
#3 West End Jeff
Intentional or none-intentional/
Either, please explain. BTW, it was much more comfortable outside today than it has been. The 4th of course was beastly to say the least.
#3 West End Jeff
Yes it is now beautiful outside, and it's gonna be a beautiful weekend. I can back to jogging and walking outside again! :-)
Luckily, I traveled by cab to the Bronx Supreme Courthouse today, then after missing a southbound #4 at Yankee Stadium, the next one came five minutes later, an R62 with good A/C (and not the Redbird WNYW reported earlier). Borough Hall was pretty hot, but when I get outside, the LED panel on the Fulton Mall gateway showed "38 Celcius, 100 Farenheit." That left me wondering if I could cook an egg sunny-side up in the intersection of Adams and Joralemon.
And with a little glass over some hot steel one could probably roast pork!
And with a little glass over some hot steel one could probably roast pork!
Let's ask American Pig to volunteer!
Roast American Pig sounds delicious. It should be nice and tasty once American Pig is well cooked.
#3 West End Jeff
Tell me you went into Borders for some time ... today was the one day I called in "sick" since I had play practice in the evening and the airhead scheduling supervisor scheduled me for 12-7:30.
Otherwise, if you had purchased anything between those hours, you were guaranteed to have me ring you up had I been working.
Oh well always next time ... see if you can recognize me.
Then again, the AC in that store has been kind of shady lately. Two Saturdays ago, the building engineer spent half the day on the roof trying to fix the damn thing and eventually he just gave up and left. Up at the registers, we were all ready to drop dead of heat stroke.
Yes, I was indeed at Borders, one of my favorite places in the mall, during the afternoon. It was nice and cool when I went in between 1 and 2pm, but when I returned at 4pm it was real hot in there, and couldn't stay as long.
Sounds like the A/C konked out.
I dunno if the mall or Borders is responsible for the store's A/C, but they better get it fixed!
Fortunately both NJT buses I had were the new MCI's and they were nice and cool.
Funny thing is, the air in Borders has kinda of a "musty" odor, sorta smells like the 6th ave express dash (currently closed) between 34th and W4th. Reminds me of how much I miss the way the musty smell penetrated the Slant R40 Q as it raced through the dash.
All of this complaining about the heat makes me laugh. I have no A/C in my Baltimore apartmentand half the buses don't have A/C either. In fact, when I started riding the Els and subways back in the early 70s, there was no such thing as A/C. That said, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE HEAT, STAY OUT OF THE SUBWAY!
E_DOG
This is bull. Are you also to deny every technological improvement just because we did without back in the day? Do you post to Subtalk using your old Underwood?
You most certainly would have a low electric bill during the summer.
Wimps?? Maggot!! Redbird brake shoes should be a two man job...i do my brakes alone at track level, including inside shoes. The ambient temp at end was 90 degrees...pit temp exceeded 100. It's harder physical work...the first job you do...and you get it done...you take multiple breaks and you do your inspection tests to get 'cooling off time.' I grew up with trainsets sans AC...and now I'm licensed to maintain those AC systems. The carbody guys think they're kings running AC when we cook undercar...you ask and warn them...then you pull the power and control systems. Dedication means keeping our city alive...CED MAKES TRAINS GO. CI Peter
I can remember when only the highest price autos had a/c too. We learned to live without it, and got very spoiled.I don't have a/c. Here in my part of Montana temps un about as high as in NYC but the nights drop down to the 50's and the houses never get too hot...the strong western sun and very clear skies can bake you in the sun. If your auto a/c doen't work [like me and my 79] it's quite warm. Eastern Montana another story. Some parts are as hot as southern Arizona in summer...but normally dry. I'm a wimp...I've hated hot weather my whole life.
Well the humidity does make it worse, because sweat does not evaporate enough to cool the skin. And in NYC, our heat is usually a humid heat.
I remember it all too well..and wonder how I survived it. Thanx for sharing and survive the summer!
No one but my wife has reason to complain. She STILL married me after the NYCRRS excursion a couple of years ago. 95 degrees outside, a former LIRR coach with no power and four open windows...Bernie promised us A/C!
-Hank
The PA Is going to charge a fare on Jamaica - JFK and Howard Beach - JFK. They said fare would be paied thru METROCARD. I wonder what it will be? (Long Term Parking - Federal Circle - Terminal Loop & Terminal Loops Will Be Free)
The rumor I've seen posted in various places is $5 for both lines. We'll see soon enough. The free Howard Beach shuttle bus will be discontinued.
Boo hiss! The shuttle bus should remain. I don't want to have to pay to transfer from Rapid Transit (the A train) to an airport just a few miles down the service road. The Airport should be more than happy to come get me for free. Even if it is by bus.
I thought the Howard Beach branch was to be free entirely, so I am surprised to hear about a fare charge. I guess it's possible to get off the A at Howard Beach and walk a little until you get to a spot to catch the shuttle bus from the long term parking lot to the Air Train station - that would avoid paying the Air Train fare!
If you can do that so easily, then the AirTrain was totally unnecessary, as I've thought all along...
I believe that the shuttle busses are going to be discontinued entirely once the Airtrain begins. You would have to walk to the Airtrain station for the Long Term lot. Presumably, there will be some impediment to doing so.
CG
Like a long walk with baggage?
More like a fence, I think. (Not everyone going to the airport has luggage.) Wire cutters, anyone?
The shuttle bus apparently WILL remain within the LTP lot only. All one has to do is take a peek at the construction at the LTP Airtrain Station. There is a huge bus-stop bay at the entrance to the station, which tells me that some form of bus transportation will be available. Besides the LTP lot is enormous it has to be covered with something wheather it be bus or van.
That being said, walking a few hundred yards to the LTP Airtrain station from Howie's Beach to catch a shuttle bus is a sure-fire way to circumvent the $5 fare (if there is to be one on that branch).
Mark
I thought people who got off the A train at Howard Beach to go to the airport had to pay $2.00 for the shuttle bus. The booth that was on the platform would charge people that to make sure no one could just walk by.
You mean currently? No, the shuttle bus has been fare-free since the JFK Express was cancelled.
AirTrain will serve the long-term parking lots. If they cancel the Shuttle bus they will probably cancel all its services.
Newark Airport belongs to the Port Authority too, so I would guess that the AirTrain arrangements will be similar at JFK & Newark. At Newark, the AirTrain is free, to change terminals or go the parking lots; it's also free to go the train station, but once you get to the train station you can't go anywhere else (except back into the airport again) without paying, because there is no exit from the train station to the outside world. And the NJT fares from the airport station include the $5 supplement (which I guess is to pay, over time, for the cost of building the AirTrain). In the Howard Beach case, the difference is that the subway station is used for other things as well as the airport, so it can't be made hermetically sealed like the Newark Airport station. Hence, presumably, the fact that the AirTrain will be free to the parking lots but fare-paid to Howard Beach. That makes it arguable whether it was worth building it to Howard Beach. In my opinion, though, the Jamaica line of the AirTrain is much more useful, as it gets you both to the subway (two lines, the E and the J)and to the LIRR, so providing a greater range of destinations.
Will LIRR offer a service to Manhattan similar to NJT's from Newark? That is, a through JFK Airport-Manhattan fare at $10 or so, with the faster train than the subway offers as the justification for the higher fare?
Fytton.
We still don't know exactly what the PA will do with the Howard Beach leg. Right now it's just meaningless Subtalk speculation.
The Jamaica leg of AirTrain will be busier, no question, because it will serve LIRR, express bus and subway customers from two corridors (Queens Blvd and the Nassau BMT).
The Port Authority's EIS called for a $5 fare. That number isn't carved in stone, but it's far from speculation.
I expect that the Howard Beach connection will lose some passengers in favor of the Q10 at Lefferts, thanks to the planned 333% fare hike via Howard Beach.
"The Port Authority's EIS called for a $5 fare. That number isn't carved in stone, but it's far from speculation"
The EIS isn't intended to be authoritative on pricing - but assumes a price for determining impact. I consider it speculation until the PA actually announces what they are going to charge.
"I expect that the Howard Beach connection will lose some passengers in favor of the Q10 at Lefferts, thanks to the planned 333% fare hike via Howard Beach."
You're probably right, but the Q10 takes forever going through airport traffic. If you want to go to Brooklyn, the Howard Beach leg will probably be a lot quicker than the Q10.
get Wire cutters and you can get off at N. Airport station and not go to Newerk. Anyways can't you get in civilization at newerk?
get Wire cutters and you can get off at N. Airport station and not go to Newerk. Anyways can't you get into civilization at newerk?
One word; AirTrain
Some years ago I came across a web page which suggested that a Metrorail station was constructed at Dulles in the early 1970s in anticipation of eventual expansion of the Orange Line (which remains in the planning stages today). Not trusting my memory, I looked up the site again tonight. (It was recently taken down, but the Google-cached version can be found here.) The information sounds somewhat specious -- the author cites only an unnamed "engineering study" for evidence -- but it piqued my interest, however doubtful this sounds. Anyone know anything about this? The page claims that the station is now entombed below a concrete slab in an airport parking lot.
C
I posted about this several weeks back. There may well be a provisional shell sitting out there, but it's not likely to be used when they finally do get a line running out that way. Back then, Dulles would have been the destination, so it could have theoretically gotten by with just a single track station. Since the line will continue past the airport to serve the suburbs that have sprung up, it will have to be two track, and will probably not deviate far from the highway alignment. IOW, it may meander in a bit for better proximity to the passenger terminals, but it also might just stay in its ROW for the journey on to keep construction costs down.
Thanks for your thoughts. Sorry to double-post, then; I normally follow BusTalk instead of SubTalk and hadn't seen your original post. Do you know anything more about it? (If it exists, what is extant/visible from surface, etc.) And did you come across the same website, or is there another source of (apocryphal) information about the phantom station?
Thanks!
chris
As far as the shell, there is no known visibility or means of public access. I haven't seen the "protrusion" referred to as a possible elevator structure, though I haven't had a chance to go to IAD with spare time to look for it. (Frankly, I'm very skeptical about the elevator as when this would have been constructed, there were no definitive designs for the stations.)
I became aware of its possible existence from a vague reference to it in an early mailing I got from the Dulles Corridor Transit project about 5 or 6 years ago, and then again a few years later on that web page. It was also uncertain as to whether there had been any actual construction beyond perhaps leaving a hole in the ground for something, and said that even if it were available, it probably wouldn't be usable because of the contemplated passenger volume and placement of the ROW and planning would only focus on the contemporary routing. There are no references to it in the current DCT materials, or any of the fed or VDOT documents I've seen.
This is also happening in Yonkers as feeders get overloaded. This might be affecting the subway. Right now 6500 people are w/o power and there are brownouts in the aformentioned areas.
Good ol' summertime at it's best. :-(
And just to think that the housing complex I'm living in wants to convert to ConEd. Humph!
And I'd better not get stuck on a subway tomorrow morning, 'cause I got too much to do, and too little time to do it.
That's my rant for this evening.
remember that last year or the year before harlem lost all power for a WEKK.
Here is a photo of the current crop of deadbirds closest to the 215 St subway stop. I can spot car numbers: 9470-71, 9367, 9406-07, 94xx (9438 maybe??)
Images of a bunch of these cars in their better days can be seen by going to the bottom of this page http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r3336wf.html and clicking on the links by car number.
ah stop it you're making me cry.
well, maybe not, but still the memories are getting to me.
I'm sad to, but records need to be kept and images captured for posterity.
Did you notice the number plates are missing from at least three of the cars? I wonder where they went....
-Stef
Yah Doug, Where did they go BMTMan...
Did you also notice that most of the American Flags are still on? Do they swim with the fishes still bearing them?
Also, what's being done with all the pairs of trucks that are being salvaged?
It looks as if the cars will go underwater with the flags on them. Meanwhile, the trucks will be shipped off to the scrap heap. These are barged separately.
SMEE Trucks might be nice to have on the side to get a trolley or subway car in working order.... Has anyone scratchbuilt a work utility vehicle?
I wonder if BERA or anyone else has any use for SMEE Trucks?
-Stef
If you know where the number plates went, please send some other stuff there also, such as a bench and one of the metal "straps." I would like one of each. I can't imagine MYCT has a use for all the stuff they are stripping out of the Deadbirds, so it would be cool if someone with connections could salvage some of that stuff for us. Anyone have any ideas? I'm really serious.
Absolutely ... and don't feel guilty for taking them. Your shots for the future are MUCH less depressing than the sight of R9's and BMT standards cut up and the remains piled on top of one another at the torch's place.
Not to mention Triplexes. What a travesty!
or streetcars being torched in Mount Vernon.
;-) Sparky
Streetcars in HEL*.
I can also see car #9687 in the photo.
#3 West End Jeff
That's 9407.
Watch the numbers you quote! Someone may suffer unnecessary anxiety.
<>
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Does anyone know where these cars are headed? I'm planning on getting a dive certification soon, hopefully before the end of summer if all works out, and would like to dive on a few of these cars. I know the PATH K cars are now down on the Sea Girt Reef off of New Jersey, and as such would be a more likely target. I don't know how deep the K cars are exactly, but it's between 70 and 80 feet deep, a fair dive on the Sea Girt Reef.
Are the NYCT cars still going down to Delaware? It seems a shame, the subway cars in the water so far from home, there are probably a few other Railfan/Divers out there who would love to see old equipment, even if it is barnicle encrusted. However, if you dive on the cars immediately after they have hit bottom, it would look just like they do in the pictures, still red, with out all the marine growth, a trip down to delaware may be worth the drive just for some interesting photos of the Redbirds.
Here are a few websites with pictures of the K cars now resting peacefully on the bottom, actually they have become quite covered by sand, nearly up to the windows on the car that seems to be featured, and marine growth has pretty much taken over the whole of their bodies.
NJScuba.net Click on the "Subway Cars" on the chart of the Sea Girt Reef.
Some Photos of K cars underwater A collection of photos by Herb Segar, although he incorrectly calls them SEPTA cars, rather than the PATH K cars that they are, other than that, pretty good quality and such.
How about a field trip? Taking subtalk to new levels, err depths!
Cars 7661-70 are on the road this evening, doing a simulated run on the 4 to New Lots Avenue, as a Brooklyn Local. SubBus can chime in if he sees it.
-Stef
This must have been the set I seen Monday nite from my vantage point.
I believe i saw that set this even while i was riding a northbound R142 #5 Train. We passed so fast that i couldnt get the numbers. I did see 76xx so its probaly the train you saw. This means that the R142As are coming to the 4 soon :).
Yep! As they enter service on the 4, we can say Farewell to the Redbirds on the line. Bye bye birdie!
-Stef
Why are there Red Birds being run with their marker lights and end roll signs unlit? They are classy looking cars. Let them run their last days looking their best. How much can it take to change a blown out bulb?
the only response you will get on this board here is the wimpy
whiners about thier AC !!!
i do agree with your post 100%!!
You'd be surprised. Why spend the money to have an electrician change the bulb in a car that may run for only another week? It's not worth the time, the effort, or the bulb. As long as the parts required to move the car and open the doors are working, that's all you need.
-Hank
I'm sure they spent plenty of money in man hours recalling the fuses for the marker light circuitry so we couldn't turn the lights on in the first place. I'm sure it would have been cheaper to replace the bulbs then it would to modify the entire Flushing Fleet overnight. I remember the days when surplus equipment was scrapped instead of sold, like rebuilt trucks on scrap cars, red R27s being sold to get rid of paint etc. Question is why do mainline cars still have markers on? Maybe the problem lies in Corona's management instead of the resistors they bought and paid for.
Actually I believe the problem relates to failed dropping resistors (that reduce current from the 600 volt supply so as to not turn the bulbs into flashbulbs from full application) ... I recall one of the folks associated with the maintenance telling us here a while ago that they had a string of failures of them, have no spare parts and because they constitute a hazard (fire, smoke, customer panic) it was decided to just disconnect them for safety purposes.
That's what I recall hearing though ... it was a Corona shop decision.
IIRC it was only the Flushing Redbirds which had their marker lights disconnected. The mainline birds still had illuminated markers last fall.
Yeah, what little I've heard about it is that Corona just threw in the towel on replacing those parts whereas the other IRT shops are still replacing them when they toast for now. Even back in the Arnine days, the bulkhead lights were in series with a biga$$ "dropping resistor" to keep the lamps from frying off the 600 supply. I lost one or two of them in my days and the whole bulkhead went dark when they smoked. And the STINK ... Woof ...
Given the concern about "smoke conditions" these days, even if it's just a piddly little part burning up, it'd scare folks and since those puppies are getting the heave-ho anyway, I sure wouldn't want to waste my crew on resistor replacement duty when I had bigger problems with more significant impact on car availability if I ever had to make the choice. Sure, it's not "as they should be" but darkened bulkheads isn't as significant an issue as runaway motors or no lights INSIDE the car.
I think they also took into consideration the fact that the 7 is an isolated line and that all trains running on it are marked as such. The only possible instance where there could be confusion would be trying to distinguish a diamond 7 from a circle 7.
Besides, the marker lights are no longer in official use.
Sometimes the express/local decision is made on the fly for the 7 making it ridiculous to use the lights.
Sometimes the express/local decision is made on the fly for the 7 making it ridiculous to use the lights.
The decision is made before Queensboro Plaza, isn't it?
Last pick I got to hear LOTS of 7 train radio traffic and it appeared that crews were never 100% sure eastbound until the Plaza and they got a command over the radio that agreed with the lineup.
Makes you wonder if the tower folks just flip a coin.
I spent a few evenings watching the rush hour on the 7 and they just don't look right.
I posted this because I rode a 4 last Thursday and the front and rear markers etc. were all out. So it looks like the problem is spreading. I grant your points on time, labor and parts. But still .....
Correct Sel, there was a post from someone saying Corona Shops pulled the fuses or whatever for the marker lights. It came up in the Express/Local light thread if anyone wants to search the archive.
Thank ya Lou! I knew YOU would be watching those. Funny how people who have operated just bite right into stories like those. You're right too, it WAS the fuses and as I recall, they did so BECAUSE of a high failure rate of dropping resistors and figured things would be safer and saner if they just weren't in the circuit. :)
The circuit is a standard 5-bulb string: 2 marker lights, 2
end route sign lights, 1 local or express light. The extra
dropping resistor in the series string is there to reduce the
wattage at which the bulbs burn, thus extending their lives.
I guess the designers of the R-1 (from which this circuit stems)
decided that it would be a problem if bulbs blew every 1000 hours
or so, thus darkening a number of significant indicators at once.
Despite SelKirk's warnings, the dropping resistor could simply be
jumped out. The bulbs would burn more brightly and would need
to be changed more frequently. Or, one could simply replace the
resistor. If the exact replacement is not available, an off-the-shelf
component available from any electronics supply house would do
just fine.
I understand the economics involved, but to me the decision not to
maintain these lights because the fleet is condemned demonstrates a
lack of pride and workmanship.
I understand the economics involved, but to me the decision not to
maintain these lights because the fleet is condemned demonstrates a
lack of pride and workmanship.
What is to understand? Boss says 'Stop doing this, your effort is appreciated but not worth it to the company'. No one lacks any 'pride' because of a sound economic decision.
-Hank
Like the marker lights don't even matter westbound. Only matter up to Queensboro east bound and even then get can overridden by the dispatcher.
I don't mean on the part of the workers. I mean on the part of
management. It may make sense economically, but like keeping the
cars clean and well-painted, it's one of those little details
that smacks of deferred maintenance, or in this case, terminal
maintenance.
Howdy Unca Jeff ... wasn't so much of a warning as an explanation of what I remember hearing the "thinking" was on it. Back in the old days, I did have one or two "events" up top where a bulb probably shorted (or the socket) and you could smell that wonderful smell of burning resistor and then the breaker on the #1 end would kick (sometimes it didn't) ... but either way, the top went dark and wouldn't come back.
The "smoke condition" was minor but even back then, the geese would just plain FLIP OUT, banging on the cab door "I smell something burning, are we on fire?" ... mind ya, this was on Arnines. Yeah, WHICH burning smell do you mean? :)
True there are some weird things in the report. Not even all the standards were out when the cited signal 'survey' was done. Maybe they revisited the issue with the R9's.
I did have a chuckle that one of the ways to ease bunching is to slow the trains not speed them up.
That makes about as much sense as painting the cars white so they could get the graffiti off as soon as it's applied.
Of course, it was common practice in the final years of the R-1/9s not to replace side sign bulbs on the ones which were still running on the IND. I don't think I saw another backlit side sign on an oldtimer after 1968 or 1969 at the latest.
I saw a few ... what was amusing is that a CI told me that they'd change the bulbs if they came in for work, but if the rollsigns were in bad shape, they wouldn't for fear of tearing the rollcurtains. You had to take them all the way out to the end of the roll to get at the bulbs without removing the whole thing. But I saw quite a few that were lit in my days ...
The original R-1/9 side roller curtains had holes cut in the canvas at one of the ends which lined up with the light bulbs. My curtains have 'em. The new curtains installed on R-7/9s used on the Eastern Division did not have the holes. Eddie S. explained that they weren't going to reinstall the light bulbs, so they didn't bother to cut the access holes. Sure enough, my Eastern Division curtains don't have them.
How often did you see a backlit side sign on any of the prewar D trains you ran or served as conductor on?
Quite a few actually. I'd say almost half of the cars had side signs lit - at least partially (always wondered how THAT happened since the lamps were in series) in my days, but then again, I actually CHECKED the sidesigns as I "mounted my steed." But yeah, the eastern division was robbed. Ours at least had a few TOP signs that said "Brighton Bch" even if the siders didn't ...
I've had a problem with these posts for some time....what are marker lights??? So I'm assigned 'Carbodsky Redbirdsky' and I activate all T/O systems in RTO simulation in the pair and every stinking lightbulb is lit. WASSUP? CI Peter
On the Redbirds, the marker lights are on either side of the end bulkhead signs. Nowadays, they're set to red-red.
Steve already got the main question - word is the Corona fleet has disconnected the circuit for everything on the ends. Nobody ever mentioned though it the TAIL lights are out too which could be an interesting question for NTSB should there be a rear-ender at some future point.
Marker lights were replaced with punch button boxes over the years. Back when they were useful, tower operators were on the wayside and would spot where you were supposed to be routed to by corresponding combinations of red-yel-grn-white lights, one cabside on the roof, the other "off-side" on either side of the big route signs up top (which also have gone byebye over the years) ... if you were green green coming out of 125th, they'd send you to the center track Concourse, green white, local, red red meant you were an A train, white white a CC, red green an AA and so on.
The tail lights should be lit, as they are low voltage running off the 22 breakers and looped through the electric portion position switches. When the reversor drum is shifted from Neutral to a forward or reverse position, the tails go dark and the headlamps illuminate. In addition, the destination end sign illuminated off low voltage in the forward position. I would presume if you were trying to read the paper while crusing down the Willy B centered, the TMO would note your destination sign was out before headlights and you were quizzed at the terminal. Nice try hotshot :-)
Is it physically possible for the headlights on a moving train to be on at both ends of a moving train?
I actually saw a n/b prewar E train at 42nd St. once whose headlights on the SOUTH motor were still on.
I'm asking because I recently took a picture of the tail end of a NB 5 express in the Bronx at East Tremont Avenue (excuse me, West Farms Square) -- but the picture clearly shows illuminated headlights, not taillights. (Yes, it's definitely the tail end. There's no T/O in the cab.)
On the R46, it is easier being the mast controller activates the lights through microswitches. On cars with spring loaded contact fingers I'm sure the folks at Branford could jumper the fingers to answer that. R44s have relays fed from the reversor, Normally Open feeds tails, latched feeds the headlights and so on.
They shouldn't be, but it is not physically impossible. It just
means a reverse key is thrown on the rear end of the train.
I'm sure it would be more like, "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!"
Whoops ... yeah, the tails (next to the headlights) ARE another circuit. What I *meant* was the upper marker lights being red on the tail (four red lights on for safety) ... and yeah, I also had my SIDE signs dark sometimes. But NEVER on the bridge. To be honest, the up and down actually gave me the willies, especially the down. You never centered there. CPW and some of Brighton was another story. Sammich and soda time. Heh.
One of the reasons though for the four way reds on the tail (I was told this a long time ago) had to do with the old ICC and a rule that your tail lamps had to be at eye-level. Since you had tails below that and roof-light markers, four reds on the rear became "acceptable" and generally used. Of course on the railroads these days, all we have is Unca Fred who isn't red at all. :)
I don't think I saw a backlit side sign on an R-1/9 after 1968 or 1969. By then, I didn't see them all that often on the IND, being a Saturday commuter. By the same token, I never saw any Brighton Beach signs on any oldtimers still on the IND. The ones on the Eastern Division did have them, as it was included on the new roller curtains. My subway riding dropped off quite a bit in 1970. The Saturday school I was attending had moved from Williamsburg to Richmond Hill and my father drove us there. It's safe to say I never rode on any D trains you operated or served as conductor on.:-(
Yeah, SOME of the D's had them on the bulkhead rollers. Not many, SOME. The deal was when you lit up your put-in, you were supposed to look for it and if it wasn't there, you'd just roll it to the end and show the white at the end of the curtain. What they wanted you to make sure of was that you DIDN'T have "Coney Island" up there if you weren't going there. Sometimes I'd roll it to "Kings Hwy" just to screw with the Brooklynites. :)
That's what they did with the R-10s which found their way on the D. The one I rode on had the bulkhead destination sign on the south motor cranked all the way to the end.
I wonder if they borrowed those Brighton Beach signs from displaced R-32 roller curtains when those cars received the multicolored route signs.
Not that roll signs mattered all that much to me (except when they were jammed and I *knew* I was going to get yelled at until the TMO tried to crank it themselves) but I *think* that the few that had "Brighton Bch" up there were probably transfers from Eastern. After all, all you really needed was ONE car on the south end that had the right signage - and since many of them ran only for rush and then would get put away for the night at either Coney or Bedford, the same wrecks came out day after day to "do it again" ... but I'd guess that about 10% of the trains I had did indeed have Brighton Bch as an option on the south end. If not, we punted.
You were a bit MORE concerned about ratcheting off your handbrakes, checking the cars and getting your brake tests than where the signs were set for - as long as they didn't say CONEY. :)
The National Weather Service is expecting the temperature to reach 98 degrees in Central Park today. In other words it is expected to be as HOT as hell. One forecast is calling for the temperature to reach 100 degrees or above. I wonder how many subway cars will have no A/C today.
I wouldn't be surprised that quite a few subway cars will have no A/C today.
#3 West End Jeff
It makes you envy deep subways like the London Underground...the deeper you go, the cooler it gets (up to a point, at least). At least all of SEPTA's subway trains are air-conditioned.
Mark
Line to NOT ride today is the 7, those redbirds can cook eggs at noon.
Well, there ARE silvers. But you'll probably be backed by the time ones comes.
oh yea they were cooler ????????????????
Yes.
Funny, I spent 22 years in Mississippi and the summers never bothered me. Down there everything is air conditioned, and the idea that things like subway cars, houses, etc., often don't have AC up here is still something I'm getting used to.
Mark
Particularly ugly upstate where FEW have A/C since you only really kick yourself in the pants for maybe five days out of the year for not having it, then you forget. It be BUTT ugly up here the past day and change and today is well ... I'm living in the basement today. :)
And you don't know if your in water or in air it is so humid and cold. Kindda like England.
It's worse if your job requires you to be outside - no air conditioning or basement. I can't get into details here but there were numerous heat exhaustion, sunstroke and dehydration medical emergencies at work on Monday while the temperature was up around the mid 40s ('C). Unbelievible.
-Robert King
Here in Atlanta, it's a cool 70 degrees, and it's supposed to get only 88 today. Sucks for you guys. :-)
And to keep this on topic. MARTA seems to have turned off the A/C in the trains or they set to thermostat higher. It's hot as crap while riding, and the humidity makes the windows fog up, it's ridiculous.
Yeah, but you guys have Ted Turner down there to deal with, so I figure we're even....
We've been in the 90s for over a week straight in metro Denver; might get a break today or tomorrow. At least it's dry - too dry IMHO. We need moisture in the worst way. I will say this much: the A/C on our light rail fleet works great.
I must confess I've forgotten just how muggy it can get back East.
So it's a dry heat, not the evil humid heat that we get here in the East? Must be a lot more bearable.
It is more bearable in that you don't perspire nearly as much. OTOH you can still get thirsty in a hurry.
I remember landing at LGA in July of 1995 when it was 102 degrees in Central Park. Talk about stepping into a blast furnace! It was still 99 degrees that night when my brother-in-law and I went to see the Mets. It was so sticky my scorecard was stuck to my arm! When we got back to Manhattan, we found an all-night deli where I bought a quart-sized bottle of Gatorade. I never chugged down an entire quart so fast in my entire life.
88 in "Hot-lanta" and 98 in New York? Can you believe that? My God, summer in New York really does suck! Unbelievable that it's 10 degrees cooler down south.
But why would MARTA turn the A/C off in the trains? That doesn't make any sense.
The key word here is "seems to." I think what Rob was trying to say is that the AC isn't working as well as it should.
Mark
rob from atlanta !! was this on all of the cars or just the french
made cars on the east west line
or the hitachi cars ??? .....would like to know if you have the info.
enjoyed your digital pics do you still have your website ??
All three car types were like this, so I imagine it's something that was deicied to do. My theory is that MARTA wants to save money on operating costs, so they turned the A/C way down.
I got some pictures here to look at:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg790a/marta
You'll like the first one, it's a railfan view!
would like to see all of those redbird haters sweat in the
GEORGIA HEAT !!!!
Even the formidable R-62A air conditioning is failing in this weather. I walked through the first six cars of a 1 train yesterday, and the first, third, and fourth all had no a/c. (They were all R-62A singles, so I latched open the storm doors so there'd at least be some air circulation.)
I once tried that on some R33 Singles, all windows, all end doors. And then some idiot complains about the noise and closes them. I wanted to have a redbird all to myself. I guess it wasn't hot enough for them.
I winder if that same guy ever rode on the R-10s.
Going accross Jamaica bay the R10s were ok with the windows open and the storm dorrs open. Thet were fast.
Yes they were. My fastest ride on those Thunderbirds occurred on that very same stretch in July of 1969. Once we had cleared the steel bridge, the motorman wrapped it and we were off to the races. Had we been in a tunnel, it would have felt as though we were going even faster.
I would guess they are of middle/south american descent?
Then you get back up and open them :D
I didn't want my behind to get kicked to the next train's single.
My R-62(A) this morning on the 1 was frigid!!!!
It isn't ever cool enough for me. I have the radiator closed in my room all winter for the last 5 years. And right now the A/C is never off.
I remember boarding a frigid R-68 on the "N" on a 92 degree day on May 11, 1993. You almost needed a sweater on that car. I've come across some frigid R-62As and even a frigid R-32. Now I carry a little black hood with me on the subway even during the summer just in case I get stuck on an unusually frigid car. The hood keeps my head warm which is a necessity for me. If you're curious enough you can E-mail me and I'll explain things to you.
#3 West End Jeff
LUCKY SKUNK!!!! Ambient temperature Wednesday inside the 239th car barn was 90 degrees F. I had 'undercar' in the middle of track 67 for 180th Street Rebirds and finished standard inspection into my lunch...skipped eating for a hard cold shower and a change of clothes.
Temperature undercar with AC units running broke 100 degrees F. 'Buck fifty a ride' is an air conditioned bargain. CI Peter
Someone should start The R33 Single Club, where you go out on a day that is over 100 and ride an R33 single on a complete round trip on the Flushing Line. It's sort of the opposite of the Polar Bear Club.
The R-33 singles are a lot more comfortable in the summer than any car equipped with air conditioning that doesn't work.
The Heat's gotten to you already hasn't it! LMAO! Sad, those Redbird beg to say "roast me" At least the body of the R-62 reflect light, instead of absorbing. Luckily we dont have the dark colored redbirds that existed in the past, that'll be begging to become a moving sauna.
Did you even read what I wrote?
I was comparing an R-33 single (which has never had air conditioning and instead has fans that blows outdoor air into the car, as well as four window panels that open and storm doors that can be latched open) to an R-62A with broken air conditioning (whose ventilation is restricted to two window panels and, on the singles, storm doors with latches).
I obviously wasn't comparing an R-33 single without air conditioning to an R-62A with air conditioning.
As for the mainline R-33's on the 2 and 5 (I don't know about the 4), their air conditioning usually works, and when it does, it works quite well -- maybe not as well as on the R-62A's, but does any? It's only the 7's Redbirds that seem to have consistently poor air conditioning.
Maybe you should call it the R-33 sauna bath car club !!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>Someone should start The R33 Single Club...<<<
It would be a short lived club...to be sure.
Peace,
ANDEE
It hit 100 degrees today in Sea Cliff. It is 100 degrees right now in my kitchen. In the room with the A/C it is 86F. Oh the wonders of no insulation.
But I'll take the 86 over the oven the rest of my apartment is!
The rampent safety concearns in the North River and East River tubes are going to be addressed with a 78 million Federal Grant. The money will help cover the costs of structural rehabilitation; installation of modernized tunnel ventilation and communication systems; and improvements for emergency access and egress. The grant agreement provides for reimbursement to Amtrak of actual costs incurred in making the improvements.
Pataki said, "This funding is an essential step in addressing the pressing fire and life-safety issues in the aging tunnels leading to and from Penn Station. I want to commend Secretary Mineta for recognizing the federal commitment to this issue and for providing funding to enhance the safety and security of these densely traveled tunnels. Although these tunnels are owned by Amtrak, over 300,000 New York and New Jersey commuters use them each day. The federal funds being released today will augment the investment New York has been making to the East River tunnels and I look forward to working with the Secretary to ensure that the federal commitment to these tunnels remains robust."
Why did AMTRAK turn down the addition of safety features of the tunnels in the first place? Lack of money?
Why did AMTRAK turn down the addition of safety features of the tunnels in the first place? Lack of money?
Amtrak didn't build the tunnels. PRR built each of the tunnels with an emergency exit. Today that's considered inadequate.
Safety considerations have evolved greatly over the last 90 years.
Wooden passenger cars were banned just over 50 years ago.
This money probably isn't enough to rebuild the tunnels, but it should be enough to install a sprinkler and smoke/fire system, add a few more emergency exits (which would be well lit and marked and not be of the narrow, spiral-stair design) and add a communications system which would support police and fire radio frequencies outside the train, and better lighting throughout the tunnel.
Not a moment too soon.
And hopefully plug up those leaks you can see when looking out the railfan window of an M-1/3!
Don't look for more emergency exits. Most of the tunnels are sort of underwater and that makes it hard to install a new exit. Frankly I like the spiral staircases. They are a prime example of 1910 engineering and design. Evacuees would have a wonderful living history exhibit.
"Frankly I like the spiral staircases. They are a prime example of 1910 engineering and design. Evacuees would have a wonderful living history exhibit."
Yeah, a living (for a while anyway) recreation of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire.
HeY! I remember that. They did that back in the 1980s.
Either you got you hands on a *very* old post, or....
Maybe they gotta do it all over again!
Elias
I saw six trains today:
8149-8152 with 8101-8104
8157-8160 with 8137-8140
8105-8108 with 8153-8156
8161-8164 with 8165-8168
8177-8180 with 8181-8184
8145-8148 with 8141-8144
As usual- there may or may not be more in a yard or cars I did not see.
then that means the chances of catching an R143 on the L now is higher than before.good,good,thanks for the update,i'll be taking the L more often now just for the hell of it.i just love those 143's.
Just saw another 143 train run light through W4th, presumably to take the cutoff over to the Eastern Division.
It looked brand-y new. Sorry, but I didn't think to get the #'s.
At about 4 PM, I nearly caused an accident on the Willy B
when I saw a light set of R143s coming northbound.
Word to the wise: Best to grip the steering wheel firmly with both hands while passing over/under or through structures featuring rail equipment.
...or wear blinders. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That was the set, I was at W4 just after 4pm.
But of course, "Jeff H."'s emergency braking rate is now the proper 3.2 MPHPS, so he was able to stop in time :-)
David
8109-12/8133-36 was in Canarsie yard this afternoon.
Another new one!
The 8140s finally surface. (I presume they were in passenger service.)
That makes 10 trainsets.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Pretty soon, we'll see nothing but R-143's and want to ride the last remaining R-42 on the (L). The old order changeth !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't know if this was said yet, but I have a feeling the remaining slants have been transfered to CI. I haven't seen any all week on the L as I pass under the line at Bway Junction and didn't see any at ENYD this afternoon either. I heard the gap train of slants at FP yard was transfered to CI a few days ago. Next question to be answered soon: what's next to go: the R40M or CI R42? I wish the latter, but expect the former!
All the slants are gone out of all three yards and the ENY barn. Next I saw 40m's signed up as Q in ENY, and it seems those few are gone as well.
Check this at the AMTRAK Web Site.
AMTRAK has got the loan and will run at least until the end of this fiscal year. Thank goodness!
The news has been out since last week. Didn't your press reported it, or is it a non-news item?
That ain't saying much....you know whent heir fiscal year ends?
It'll be the same stuff again in two months....
Well, at least better than shutting down on Wed. 2 weeks ago.
Yeah, so now when they runout of money again on 9/1, shutdown is imminent.....
The next fiscal year starts October 1, 2002. Hope that AMTRAK has another chance for that $1.2 billion from Congress for next year's expenses. The $205 million loan is a guaranteed payback one.
I've asked this before, but I think AMTRAK will be on loans as long as it lives.
>>> Yeah, so now when they runout of money again on 9/1, shutdown is imminent <<<
No, if they make it into the new fiscal year they will have 8-9 months to spend the year's budget, so the shutdown crisis will not occur until next May or June.
Tom
"No, if they make it into the new fiscal year they will have 8-9 months to spend the year's budget, so the shutdown crisis will not occur until next May or June."
Hopefully Gunn will have the guts to say that he can only do x with the money, and shut down enough services so that he can run the rest of the railroad for a whole year. Then Congress and the states will have to decide what additional money they want to kick in as a subsidy and what they are willing to let die.
It's AAALLLIIVE!
I'm coming to NY today for 5 glorious nights of dancing argentine tango. I checked the service advisories for the subway and read that for this Sunday and Monday (until 5 a.m.) the #1 and #2 won't operate below 34th Street. The 5 will run on the 2 as far as Times Square.
The reason on the advisory is "This work is necessary to restore 1 9
service to South Ferry." The 3 will continue to run to 14th Street.
Why isn't there service below 14th Street on the West Side IRT? What work being done requires service to cease at 34th street on the local tracks?
Michael
Still coming to NY even though he's confused.
I'm sure the 3 will be running local to 14th -- probably all the way from 96th -- both to provide service to the local stations south of 34th and to keep clear of terminating 5 trains at 42nd and 1 trains at 34th. And the 5 will almost certainly run express.
Why nothing below that? The usual reason in the past has been work at Wall Street. I don't see how work on the Greenwich Street line would possibly affect service on the current 1/2/3 line, but that's the stated reason.
Will the northbound 2 be running normal or on the East Side? Nobody seems to know. The poster is ambiguous. When similar GO's have been in effect, the 2 has always run normal in one direction, but this week's advisory is very different from previous ones.
im 97% certain it'll be in both directions.working on the signals around Chambers St is the most likely reason for the GO
Which signals? All trains to and from Brooklyn at are on the express tracks at Chambers; the Greenwich Street line connects only to the local tracks.
If the switches north of Chambers need work (they shouldn't; they're well north of the damage), running all trains express from 14th to Chambers and/or vice versa should do the trick with a lot less disruption than what's planned.
Anybody have the actual GO (if it's been printed up yet) and care to share it with us?
"If the switches north of Chambers need work (they shouldn't; they're well north of the damage), running all trains express from 14th to Chambers and/or vice versa should do the trick with a lot less disruption than what's planned."
Where is the tower for those switches. If they are putting in new gear somewhere, it is likely that they will put in all new gear for the entire interlocking section, even the parts of it that are still running.
Anyway. that is my take on the deal.
your take may varry, use with grains of salt.
Elias
I believe the poster advising of the GO says that ALL #2's will be on the east side.
Then why the word "downtown"?
(OTOH, the 1 and 5 changes obviously apply in both directions, so I agree that the 2 change will probably also apply in both directions.)
Since most of the ridership on the 2 and 5 is in Manhattan, wouldn't a relabeling be in order? Run 2 trains between 241st and Times Square. Run 5 trains between Dyre and Flatbush via the East Side. There will be confusion no matter what, but I think doing this would reduce it a little.
The service notice says for 28th, 23rd, 18th, use the A or C. I don't think the 3 is stopping here, at least in one direction.
It also doesn't explain where equipment is going to be turned. You can turn both the 1 and 3 at 14th St on one track, but it will be a tight squeeze.
I'll see the GO Bulletin issued by Stations hopefully on Friday, and will try to report back with my findings if no one else does it.
-Stef
The service notice is giving directions traveling south from those stations. Why else would it direct passengers at 28th to 34/8 rather than 34/7?
The 5 will run down the express, discharge at 42nd, and relay on the pocket track. The 1 will terminate on the express tracks at 34th. The 3 will run local past both messes and terminate on its usual SB express track at 14th.
I doubt the 3 will run express either way. In theory, 1's could be restricted to one of the express tracks and 3's could run express the other way, but what would be the point? I doubt the track closure is north of 14th. (That sort of track closure would be better handled by a simple all-trains-run-express GO some weekend or late night.) It would be a tight squeeze with only one track available for turning 1's. When a similar GO last ran, the 3 wasn't running, and some 1's were sent to Chambers while others terminated at 14th since they couldn't all fit at Chambers.
>The service notice is giving directions traveling south from those stations. Why else would it direct passengers at 28th to 34/8 rather than 34/7?
You didn't answer the question. Is there service to those stations at all? My impression is there would be no service stopping there, since the customer is being directed elsewhere. If the 3 is on the local track, perhaps it will stop. If it is on the express track, then obviously, it won't stop.
-Stef
I obviously don't know for sure, but I think there will be service to those stations in both directions, on the 3, which has to use the local track anyway to get past the 1 at 34th.
Why are passengers at 28th being sent to 34/8, not 34/7?
My answer is that the directions are for passengers trying to board at those stations and go south. Sure, the stations are open, but if you're trying to go past 14th Street, you don't want to use them or you'll be stuck using the long passageway to the F. Better to just walk to 8th (or 6th) and be done with it.
But if the directions are for passengers trying to go either way, and the local stations are closed, why not just send them to 34/7?
For that matter, why is 14/7 even on the list? We both agree that there will be service there. I maintain it's so passengers looking for southbound service will find it.
Well, Look, If *WE* can't figure it out, then sure as little fishes the geese aren't going to be able to figure it out.
So here is what I figure... those stations are open to passengers coming from or going to the NORTH, but that there is no service SOUTH of 14th Street.
Now if that is so.... then why couldn't they have said *that*?
Elias
Perhaps power has to be turned off on the downtown side in order for the work to be done.
does terrorist attacks on 9/11 ring a bell? the 1/9 tunnel to South Ferry and the Courtlandt St station was destroyed on that day and since then they've been putting up a new tunnel and working 24/7 to get it set to return everything back to normal within the next 3 months or so.all this time they've been working nothing like this GO has happened.so my guess is that the workers are gonna take a major step in the work on sunday through monday so they dont want any trains around Chambers St in either direction.that also means one thing,its the signals that they'll be working on.this go is so interesting im gonna be around to see it on sunday after lunch.hehe, i know if im not around people are gonna be confused just like they always are.so im there to help out like i usually do on most GO's.the 2 is gonna be running on Lexington Av in both directions thats why the 5 is gonna run to Times Sq to replace it.if you wanna hang around with me on sunday,i have no problem with that.till take care.
does terrorist attacks on 9/11 ring a bell? the 1/9 tunnel to South Ferry and the Courtlandt St station was destroyed on that day and since then they've been putting up a new tunnel and working 24/7 to get it set to return everything back to normal within the next 3 months or so.all this time they've been working nothing like this GO has happened.so my guess is that the workers are gonna take a major step in the work on sunday through monday so they dont want any trains around Chambers St in either direction.
As noted already, the work on the tunnel through the WTC site should not interfere in any way with IRT service.
"As noted already, the work on the tunnel through the WTC site should not interfere in any way with IRT service."
Might there not be some issue with the signaling system? Maybe the local tracks south of Chambers were excised from that system in some radical way in order to get service through Park Place going ASAP back in September. After all, there was also severe flooding in the tunnel back then.
does terrorist attacks on 9/11 ring a bell? the 1/9 tunnel to South Ferry and the Courtlandt St station was destroyed on that day and since then they've been putting up a new tunnel and working 24/7 to get it set to return everything back to normal within the next 3 months or so.all this time they've been working nothing like this GO has happened.so my guess is that the workers are gonna take a major step in the work on sunday through monday so they dont want any trains around Chambers St in either direction.that also means one thing,its the signals that they'll be working on.this go is so interesting im gonna be around to see it on sunday after lunch.hehe, i know if im not around people are gonna be confused just like they always are.so im there to help out like i usually do on most GO's.the 2 is gonna be running on Lexington Av in both directions thats why the 5 is gonna run to Times Sq to replace it.if you wanna hang around with me on sunday,i have no problem with that.till then take care.
Unless they are seriously lying by omission there will be uptown service on the 2 through Chambers St.
It's been posted that there will.
But what about the omissions regarding 1 and 5 service? The poster only says where they go southbound. Now, we here can all figure out that they have no choice but to turn around and go back the way they came -- but the poster doesn't give any information on changes in uptown 1 or 5 service.
1 is local in both directions. 5 is express in both directions and runs on the west side until 5am Monday morning.
Here's the skinny.
#1 trains last stop 34st. travel light to Chambers relay on 2 track and go in service at Franklin. (CHAMBERS is CLOSED)
#2 trains 241-Flatbush via Lex. both directions
#3 trains regular service
#5 trains Dyre to TSQ
Hold it. This conflicts in two major ways with what SubBus posted. Are two different versions of this GO floating around? I can't wait to see what happens come Sunday.
Why on earth would the 1 travel light all the way from 34th to Chambers? And why would Chambers be closed if trains have to go there anyway? (Work equipment blocking the platform or stairs?)
I made a mistake the southbound platform will be closed because they are pulling electrical cables. The 2 will operate NB as usual with the 1,2 and 3 going local from 42nd to 96th.
The 1 is traveling light because the only places to relay are 14th (3 trains) or Chambers, and since the southbound platforms are closed for safety reasons and you can't go from 1 track to 3 track 1 trains are traveling light. It would next to impossible to try and clean out both 1 and 3 trains at 14th.
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.
But why not do it this way instead:
2, 3, 5 as per the current plan.
1 via local to Franklin. Discharge there. Relay on the SB local and/or express tracks at Chambers. (Maybe one train every 20 minutes or so could run in service past Chambers to Park Place, discharge there, and wrong-rail back to Chambers, so nobody gets stranded at Franklin with no transfer opportunities.) Run light to 14th on the NB express track and resume normal service there.
That would give the local stations south of 14th one service in each direction. The actual GO gives them two services NB and no services SB.
If SB 1 trains will be discharging at 34th, I don't see why they don't just change ends there. The local stations south of 34th don't see much use on weekends; the 2 and 3 are providing enough NB service.
Where is the actual work? Fulton/Wall SB track?
You can't get from 1 track at 34 to 4 track at 42.
The work is being down just south of Chambers on 2 track and power is being removed where neede.
Sorry, I don't know the track numbers -- 1 and 4 are the local tracks, I assume? SB 1 trains could terminate on the SB express track at 34th, change ends, and switch to the NB local track, no? Peter Dougherty's track map seems to indicate that they could. If not, they could come in on the SB express track at 34th, do a reverse relay through the gap track, reenter service on the NB express track at 34th, and switch to the NB local track at 42nd. The 3 would run local past this mess.
But I still prefer my other idea. If the 1's going to be running down the local track to Chambers anyway, they should stay in service until Franklin. There's no need to run it in service north from Franklin since the 2 already takes care of those platforms.
How would you feel if I left you on the Express plat @ 34 and told you to go to the local plat to get the #3 to continue to 14th.
The 5 trains are going to be relaying on the spur track at TSQ.
1 SB local \
2 SB express \
3 NB express /IRT only
4 NB local /
If I'd been listening to the announcements, I would have known to get off at 42nd and wait for a 3 to continue past 34th. And if I hadn't, I'd use one of the three underpasses to get to the local platform. It just seems like overkill to implement a five-mile relay to avoid this.
You're right about the spur track.
That explains why the Schedule shows Chambers street as the turn around point for the #1 Line.
>>I'm coming to NY today for 5 glorious nights of dancing argentine tango<<
Tango on the T.A. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anybody have a recording of any of the LIRR M-1/M-3 or NYCT Subway air horns that I can get? I'm trying to change the air horn from the "foghorn" horn included in the canned HHP-8 and Acela Express trainsets in MSTS.
Thanx a billion. :)
Stuart
(Btw: If you want to save time, just email the file(s) as attachments to my email address [sguberman@nyc.rr.com] Thanx again)
The correct horns for the HHP-8 and Acela express is the Airchime K-5LA.
You can download good versions of this horn ready to put into your locos on MSTS from http://www.train-sim.com in their File Library. I know, the default horns really suck.
And just for info sake, the NYCTA horn is a WABCO single noter...I forget the actual model number. LIRR's M-1's used a Leslie "S44" single noter; the M-3's came with a Leslie "S-2M" 2-chime.
>>The correct horns for the HHP-8 and Acela express is the Airchime K-5LA.<<
Is that the Nathan K-5LA airchime used on the LIRR power packs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes. LIRR had them on many GP38-2's, a couple MP15AC's, some of the FA's. Due to varying mounting, air pressure, and ingested birds/dirt/grit conditions, they'd all sound completely different.
The DE/DM's came with them as well, and originally they were mounted in a roof niche mid-ships, with a quick on-off solenoid valve, making thems ound VERY LOUD to the side, and barely audible to the front. (Amtrak's Genesis and F59PHI's are the same way...) LIRRmoved them to the front of the units so they'd provide grade crossing warning, not headaches to those living on either side of the tracks!
I just heard people have needed medical attention in the subway because of the heat. I don't like the heat but I can take it if I must. Anyone have any physical problems today? Hope everyone is alright.
Tony
Damn, Thankfully I didn't have any problems, I'm in a house with no A/C, just fans.
I sit in a windowless server room for eight hours per workday. Luckly I have my sweater on.
Ah, a fellow computer tech. I'm more of a "traveling" tech at CCNY. In other words, when someone spills cofee into the server, that's where I go. Thank God we have central air!
Back on topic, though. The TA has done a pretty good job with A/C this year. I haven't gotten on a train or bus yet without A/C, though I'm sure there are a lot of them out there.
If the server rooms didn't have A/C they would all burn out. I already am looking at a computer that burned out when it was left in a unA/Ced room.
I'm assuming heat isn't all that good for PC's either. Fortunately my PC is in the room with A/C, and this is why I leave the A/C going full blast 24/7 in this weather. And it's 86F in here still.
I wish I could stuff some insulation in these stucco walls.
Hehe......I remember my very first computer.....an 8088 (XT) clone that died around this time in 1993 (after like 7 years in service with only a few upgrades, mainly in the HD and floppy drive departments), and the CPU itself just MELTED right in it's space on the motherboard....and this was before the lever sockets [for easy CPU chip removal and replacement]
Got 2 XTs. Good thing have been in a office building with a powerful (right now 74F) A/C that has always worked since day 1 of the computer being there.
>>>I wish I could stuff some insulation in these stucco walls. <<<
Have you considered buying a LARGER air-conditioner? Sounds as if yours is woefully underpowered. I live in a pre-war uninsulated apartment on the top floor and the temp. in my apt is 72 degrees. With a 12,000 btu unit in the living room and a 7000 btu in the bedroom.
Peace,
ANDEE
7800 BTU is my A/C's power. I have ancient wiring in my building, any more would probably trip the circuit breaker.
And two A/C's, forgettaboutit! I can't even use the microwave or toaster while the A/C is going.
Maybe the A/C he has isn't a regular model. Mine is a vertical unit because the windows a a hand crank. It is only avaliable in 11,000 BTUplus it runs on ancient wires (half the house on one circut(?)).
I'm just drinking alot of fluids and staying in A/C. I do have a low tolerance for the heat, if I stay outside too long in it I'll get tremor and nausea.
Have a happy 4th.
What are you doing for the holiday? Im going to a wedding in Boston.
Going to stay until Monday.
BBQ on Sunday at my best friend's house in Bull's Head (S.I.), but that's about it here.
Haven't had a day off from TA since I started over nine months ago. Took July 4th and the Friday (AVA) for a well deserved four day weekend. West of NYC 75 miles away in Hope, New Jersey...the heat prevents me from doing outside chores. CI Peter
Was supposed to spend it with my girlfriend, she didn't make it, so I'm all alone on subtalk
AEM7
I hope people that had to ride the R-44 didn't burn up today because of the A/C wasn't doing enough, today would be a great day to stay in a nice cool R-32 on the C Line.
Had to go down to Hoyt-Schmerhorn today on the "A" via a R-44 this morning....one of the reasons why I am not havin' a good day.
But I thought the R-44s, according to you, were soooo wonderful. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-44's are wonderful and are the best, just not during the summer.
Sounds like we are talking about an R-33.
I was riding an R44 A train from 207th all the way to 14th street yesterday and the AC was working very well.
R44's have pretty good A/C, actually they seem better than the 46's at times. But the best A/C in my opinion is on the R32's, R40 Slants, R62's and R68's(out of Concourse).
Actually the Concourse R68's can be quite cool, as I experienced the other day on the D.
Those R68's seem to perform much better than the ones at CI.
TD is doing a great job over at Concourse!
Train #97 from NYP to Miami yesterday was delayed more than 2 hours because of equipment problems. I was at Newark Penn Station and when the train pulled in, it was led by two HHP-8 locomotives #655 and #657 (IIRC) which clearly bear the Acela logo.
I thought it was interesting as I have never seen that happen before. I guess in emergency situations, anything can happen.
1) Does anybody know why this happened?
2) Which loco. does AMTRAK use regularly to pull this train?
3) I've noticed a "Dorm Lounge" and a "United States Mail" car in the front of the train. What type of mail is delivered on the train? What is the difference between a dorm lounge and a regular lounge car?
(The dorm lounge car looked old but was a "rectangular" Amfleet with square windows.)
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
2) Which loco. does AMTRAK use regularly to pull this train?
If I remember right, these runs are generally made by through Genesis engines. I don't know where the power change occurs, but there presumably has to be a power change at some point. Presumably DC. But then, I've often seen diesels go up and down the NEC. So maybe it's Philly, because allegedly diesels can't go into NYP. That said, I think sometimes they just don't care and send P-42's into NYP.
Hell, the Inland Route train is diesel all the way and they don't power change at NHV. So diesels must be OK in NYP at least some of the time.
3) I've noticed a "Dorm Lounge" and a "United States Mail" car in the front of the train. What type of mail is delivered on the train? What is the difference between a dorm lounge and a regular lounge car?
It's not an Amfleet. It's a heritage car. You can probably see the "New York Central" lettering if the light is on it right. As far as I know Dorm Lounge is a crew dorm, maybe there is a lounge area. Well I've never been in one so I can't tell you. The half with the smaller windows are roomettes, presumably the half with the larger windows are the "lounge" part.
AEM7
An AEM-7 usually hauls Silver Meteor (#97 and #98) between New York and DC. An P42 will haul that train south of DC.
Chaohwa
Yes AEM-7's do haul #97&98.They change at Washington.#89,90,91,92, usually switch engines in Philly.The electric they use, last time i saw were E-60's .
An AEM7? I thought larger locomotives were needed than the AEM7 to haul a 16-car or so long-distance train.
Also, I've been noticing a lot of AEM7/AC's lately pulling the Amfleets. Are the AEM7/AC's preferred more to use than the AEM7's or am I just noticing a bunch of trains in one time period which use all AEM7/AC's?
Or a pair of AEMs.
The only Genesis engines that go into NYP are dual mode from Albany-Rens... No Genesis diesels enter NYP from Jersey.
And they're P32AC/DMs, what Metro North has, too. The earliest of these engines for Amtrak was commissioned in 1995 by GE's EMD. There were ads for Amtrak service with these engines all over the place in Union Station/DC at that time.
EMD and GE are two different companies. GE's locomotive subsidiary is General Electric Transportation Systems (GETS). EMD is General Motors Electro-Motive Division. The GEnesis engines are all GE products.
-Hank
The inland route changes power at New Haven. AFAIK, Amtrak never runs pure diesels into NYC, and if they did, I suspect LIRR and NJT commuters would riot.
If the power at Newark is a P-42, it will ditch there. Amtrak stupidly bought a fleet of obsolete diesels, but never bothered to buy any more motors, of which they're been short for years. They got ripped royally on the HHP-8s, they're 3 million more than the ALP-46s are, and the two locos are effectively equal in performance.
HHP-8's have higher TF for starting heavy Long Haul trains.
Not by much. Actually, I believe they're effectively the same. In any case, starting TE isn't a big issue as long as it's sufficient to get the train rolling. Once you break 10 or 15mph, you're beyond the point where TE makes much difference, and HP starts to dominate. The HHP-8 has 900 more HP than the ALP-46. Which is interesting since the ALP-46 is based off a design that has a 9000+hp variant. i suspect this was more a spec move by NJT than anything else.
Since both are AC traction and virtually the same weight (though the HHP-8 is 11 ton heavier somehow. I suspect ABB was either better at design optimization than Alstom, or the penaly for Tier II is more severe than I thought. in any case, the ALP-46 is actually lighter than the ALP-44, yet has a higher starting TE by 50%, as a function of better traction and trucks).
I'd be curious to see how a 6 axle, 10,000 HP, 110ton locomotive could do, but such designs aren't common todday anywhere. 4 axle power is the most common in passenger service now.
The greater weight is for better adhesion. Long haul trains do not need the zip and hi-speed of the corridor trains. They frequently have equipment in consist that is limited to less than 120mph. They need to be able to start under all conditions and this is what the E60's and HHP-8's will do.
When I took it, we had an E60. It would take one E60 or a pair of AEM7s, usually. Since the HHP8s were aquired to replace the E60s, I don't see any 'emergency'.
All sorts of mail go on the train, usually packages and bulk magazines (magazines for individual delivery, but packed in bulk by zip code for later sorting) and such.
A dorm-lounge is a crew dorm car with a smoking lounge.
-Hank
I have some questions and information regarding PATH and I think it's interesting to note:
1) What kind of horn do PATH trains use? They sound almost identical to the horn used on NJT Arrow III's.
2) Are only the PA-1's with the lit-up destination panels on the INSIDE?
3) Real speed of PATH between JSQ and Harrison: If anyone knows the speed restriction of the Hoboken line tracks in the section which runs alongside the NEC along with I-280, that's the speed PATH reaches.
4) UNKNOWN TRAIN spotted at JSQ heading e/b. A PATH train consist of 4 cars (one of them was #640) along with a work car, and about 4 flatbed work vehicles followed the train (attached). All of the passenger cars had "33rd St" and "WTC" lit up, but the lights were all off. The last flatbed car was 1238W.
Turns out this train stops right outside of JSQ, and I think it ended up on the service platform next to track 1.
Anyone know about this irregularity?
Answers and respones would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
The PA-1s and PA-2s have no destination signs on the inside. The PA-3s and PA-4s do, but in different spots. PA-3s have them over the front-right / back-left doors, while PA-4s have them on the ends of the cars.
Also, if you note the exterior, the destination signs on PA-1 thru 3 are over the doors while the PA-4 is over the windows between the doors.
How come all of you complain the redbirds don't have AC when they do. And why do the R-33 not have them and the R-36 do?
The R-33 single units don't have the space in the chassis for the powering transformers necessary to make the A/C go. That's why in the case of the redboids, the married pairs are better than the single units...the R-33s for the 7 were there because they'd increase the # of cars per train to 11 without compromising any power configs, and the power configs for the R-33 and 36 are similiar anyway, but the 36s don't have the capability to send power to the 33s for the A/C units...or the TA decided to not put in A/C on the 33s anyway because to outfit them with it wouldn't be economically wise, and they figured that the passengers would just stick to the 10 R-36s in the rest of the consist.
Huh?
Try this: there isn't enough space under the car on the single R-33s for the compressor/condensor unit that was being purchased at the time for the retrofit of the rest of the R-26 through R-36 fleet. There was enough room under the rest of the cars because they have either an air compressor OR a motor-generator set (now converter), while the single R-33s have both.
David
yeah the Flushing redbirds are the hottest, compare to the other redbirds, the R-62a's especially on the Broadway line have the best AC.
Between the generally poor a/c and the pulled fuses on the marker lights, it certainly seems like Corona isn't putting as much into its Redbirds as the other shops.
Corona crew isn't East 180ths. We get really nasty negleted 32s and bring them up to standard. Just don't look for asthetics...body rot is fixed with duct tape and red spray paint.
33's, you mean (I hope).
Yes, East 180th does a very nice job on its Redbirds, especially the R-33's. As a West Sider, I don't see much of them anymore, but I cheer when I do (as I did a few days ago when I saw a train that was half-signed as a 2 and half-signed as a diamond-5 pull in on the SB local track at 96th -- too bad I was going north). Keep up the good work.
No more Bondo, eh?:-)
yea~!
Answer because they are a buch of crybabies !!!!!!!
""wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"""!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bad day for the IND this AM. Had a 12-9 at 34/6 and then homeless were on the tracks at 53/5th.
If that was not bad enough- when I got to the stair to the downtown F we had a platform light fixture on the L go up in smoke. I raced to the booth to call it in and returned with an extinguisher just in case. I saw the cleaner and asked him to watch with the extinguisher in case while I returned to the booth to await help. I showed the police the scene to find that lighting removed the tubes and let the police go. I spoke to Lighting and was advised I did the right thing.
If this was actually a confirmed 12-9 it will be just the first 12-9 for any of the 6th Ave lines (BDFV) since 2001. Anyone want to guess which line(s) has had the most 12-9s this year?
[ ] 8th Avenue (ACEH)
[ ] 7th Avenue (123)
[ ]Broadway (QWNR& Fs)
[ ] Eastern Division (JMZ)
[ ] Lexington Ave (456&GCS)
[ ]#7 line
[ ] L Line
[ ] G-Line
I'll wager a quarter on 8th Avenue (A)(C)(H)(E) (turn the letters, Vanna)
You can guess the A C & H but the vowel'll cost ya $250.00
Dang! That's an expensive vowel ... guess I'll take an F then and use my trusty exacto knife. :)
The J,M,Z
Nah no one likes the structure, you might fall thru.
They do it at Chambers St. It's the perfect spot, depression-wise.
-Hank
If they can figure out what track the train is coming in on. That might explain that real slow timer going east.
You think they do it on the A/C so that part of their remains will drift over to 76st?
No, depression-wise, any IND local station will do. Especially one with a few pitch black closed exits.
>>> They do it at Chambers St. It's the perfect spot, depression-wise <<<
Well if I were planning the act I would want to be taken out by an A train, preferably an R-9. (I guess I missed my chance.)
Tom
Humping in front of an R-68 hippo allows for reconsideration. Let's say, for example, you landed ten feet in front of the train as it was moving at top speed. You'd have at least a couple of minutes to re-evaluate your decision before the train covered those ten feet and got to you.
I'd have to agree with your guess on the Eastern Division. They've had a few of them lately.
My guess is the L Line.
the 7
I'll guess the No.1 Line.
Actually, the 7th Ave line (1,2,3) is running a distant 2nd. Roughly 1/3 of all of this year's 12-9 incidents have taken place on the 8th Avenue lines.
Woohoo! I won my free controller and brake stands! :)
Right? Heh.
Hey, that's what I thought too... we'll have to split the prize, Selkirk :P
I think it's nertz to both of us but sure ... I'll split the winnin's ... only fair. :)
Early Wednesday afternoon, there was a 12-9 on the E line at Jamaica Van Wyck. Jamaica Hospital is in the vicinity. I do not know if there was a fatality involved.
There was a Fatality Involved. The person was Dead under the train. I was on my way to work when I heard the reports over my radio at Union Tpk. Station.
Robert
What is this fascination with 12-9?
There is no fascination. a 12-9 means power must be cut off and no power menass no trains. When there are no trains on a line it causes a rip[ple effect delay on other lines. If a subtalker is on an effected line we usually see a post the next day or the same evening "what happened on the ??Line today?) I amswered the question before it was asked I carry my own scanner with me to assist my customers. I have been stuck on platforms with no trains and faced the "Where is my train?" I tellt ehm "Let me check w=ith the tower" and get out my scanner. I give them the public version of the message and they are not as angry. If needed, I escort the crowd to the booth and ask them to open the block tickets and then start handing out the block tickets leaving the S/A in teh booth to handle sales and bus questions I recall at Christmas season before I was even on duty. My hours were changed and the supervisor said the General Supt. said thanks. I have even assisted PATH, Amtrak and NJT with problems (and gottent hansk from them!)
Having a scanner is a great thing for an Agent to have at work. I wouldn't advise pulling it out on the platform in a crowd of people. There might be someone there who'll take it from you. It happened to me once. Sometimes I've been able to reprogram them for different booths.
Sometimes it's good to know when the s**t is flying so you know when to duck.
Yeah it's not a good idea to DISPLAY expensive valuables on the subway like a scanner, since chances are a gangsta might try and rob you.
Best thing is to hide it in your bag, that way you don't set yourself up to be a target. Same thing goes for gold chains,etc.
That is why I don't see too many people around with those pricey minidisc players. I'd like to get one but that stuff is expensive.
Stick with tape players. They're cheap and easily replacable.
Does it mean person on the line?
AEM7
>>>>>>>Does it mean person on the line?
More like a person under the line. A T/O's worst nightmare.
Chances are, nothing will happen, even in the worst of places on the worst of lines. I've traveled with an extensive amount of camera equipment exposed, and never had a problem. Not even funny looks.
-Hank
Stick with tape players. They're cheap and easily replacable.
That's because tape players suck. Tapes are clunky, have to be rewound and the sound quality leaves much to be desired.
The best two options are MP3 player or CD player that reads CD-RWs.
Your opinion. As long as you maintain 'em, they run fine and sound great.
mp3 players hold little, only about an hour of music. Discmans are too bulky to carry around. Only minidisc is the great advance in portable digital music.
Of course in this day and age when everything just has to be digital, including subway announcements, analog just isn't welcome anymore. :-(
I guess I'm getting old.
And I see plenty of people using tape players on the subway, just as many as CD players. I like to record my own stuff, especially "railfan" soundtracks and it's easy with tape. And with all the jostling on a subway car, I'd like to see a CD survive that and not skip.
Alot of people just use radios too, though underground any reception is difficult. The original IRT stations on the West Side and BMT in Manhattan offer the best reception, probably because their closest to the surface.
And if you look in the Main street station on the number 7 line in Flushing, you'll see several big piles of cassette tapes. Now I thought music wasn't allowed in towers. Or is that just for token booths?
Personally I think music should be allowed anywhere in the subway. Whenever there is some it makes the wait that more bearable.
Personally I think music should be allowed anywhere in the subway. Whenever there is some it makes the wait that more bearable.
If it's the sort of music you happen to enjoy, that is.
Well any music to be played in subway stations would have to probably be instrumental, which is what alot of subway musicians do, so it would have the most universal appeal.
I hate to break it to you, but not everyone likes every sort of instrumental music.
Most New Yorkers have no choice but to use the subway. Don't force them to listen to music they don't want to listen to. The leaky headphones that are so popular on the subway are enough of an assault on our ears.
Urrghh, I do hate the leaky headphones. Those in-ear and open air ones are the worst offendors, often having to listen to tinny hip hop is no fun. Watch out for anything with the Coby name on it, those are the worst.
I use closed ear type headphones. While they are not as fashionable, they sure keep the sound from the outside out, and the audio in.
I guess you're right about music in subway stations, but I still feel that in towers, control rooms, and token booths it should be allowed.
Some bus drivers also play music, it is rare, but I've seen it on both NYCT and LI Bus.
As I said earlier, they probably do get away with having music on in towers, but token booths should have the same right.
In token booths? How's the agent supposed to hear what you're asking him if he's listening a CD?
Some smaller transit agencies allow bus drivers to play music on the bus. It sends a very shoddy impression. NYCT is a professional operation and it should send that message.
If it's on low I don't see a problem with it. Especially during quiet hours, it gets mighty boring in the token booth.
Then bring a book and read between customers. Anyone who can't tolerate occasional quiet times in a position of customer service should take a different job. Allowing radios in booths sends the wrong message to the public and interferes with the job.
"Personally I think music should be allowed anywhere in the subway. Whenever there is some it makes the wait that more bearable.
"
YIKES! NO! I don't want to hear *YOUR* kind of music!
(and I don'r even know what kind it is... but I *know* it ain't *my* kind!)
Perhaps some quiet elevator music might not be to bad, but I'd rather have the silence.
Why do you think I moved to NORTH DAKOTA!
: ) Elias
CDs don't pop that often on the newer machines.
They're still bulky though.
You haven't been shopping for personal electronics in some time, have you?
-Hank
Nope, not really. Since my Aiwa broke around last Xmas I've been using a Panasonic that's alot better. After having something go wrong with 3 Aiwa walkmans in 2 years , I decided to give up on them.
Aiwa is like Sony (actually they are owned by Sony corp) and the stuff just doesn't last. Panasonic is made to last, and my experience is their stuff is a lot sturdier than Aiwa/Sony.
Perhaps Sony designed the defective digital announcements on the R142's, R143's and LIRR Bilevels.
Actually the system almost never works on LIRR. What a waste of $$$.
I like to record my own stuff, especially "railfan" soundtracks and it's easy with tape.
There are MP3 players with record capablity now. Plus you can use the computer to edit.
And with all the jostling on a subway car, I'd like to see a CD survive that and not skip.
You haven't used a discman in a while, have you?
And I see plenty of people using tape players on the subway, just as many as CD players. I like to record my own stuff, especially "railfan" soundtracks and it's easy with tape. And with all the jostling on a subway car, I'd like to see a CD survive that and not skip.
Alot of people just use radios too, though underground any reception is difficult. The original IRT stations on the West Side and BMT in Manhattan offer the best reception, probably because their closest to the surface.
And if you look in the Main street station tower on the number 7 line in Flushing, you'll see several big piles of cassette tapes. Now I thought music wasn't allowed in towers. Or is that just for token booths?
Personally I think music should be allowed anywhere in the subway. Whenever there is some it makes the wait that more bearable.
Your opinion. As long as you maintain 'em, they run fine and sound great.
Still not as good as new digital equipment.
mp3 players hold little, only about an hour of music.
Depends on the model. There are hard drive based models now with HOURS of music, not to mention units with removable memory cartridges.
Discmans are too bulky to carry around.
Your opinion
What is the definition of a 12/9?
Sounds like you did a darn good job. Congratulations on looking out for the public.
What is the definition of a 12/9?
Passenger under train
So the homeless on the track would be a 12-10.
unless they got hit, when it would become a 12-9. I dont have figures, but I wopuld guess many 12-9 victims are homeless wandering in tunnels or jumpoing to the tracks to get cans, bottles, etc. or to get to the other side to see thei homeless buddikes.
Anybody who's not authorized to be on the roadbed is a 12-10.
I try! Many supervisors like me because I simplify their job. Really- I am aware of the part of my duties which states "Be awareo o station conditions and report unusual occurences..."
I use stairway numbers, benches, chaining codes, signal numbners or whatever distinugishing feature I can to identify the location of a problem.
And don't forget to get the CN number, Badge numbers, Name of hospitals, ect!
Right! I left that for the person in the booth. When I ask the booth to call in an emergency I deal with the crisis and let them do the paperwork if I have to leave the station. If I am still there I hold the booth while they get the info or I can get the info.
Attention Metrocard collectors !!
Looks like there is a new MTA Metrocard out there. Sorry for no link.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2119046345
Bill "Newkirk"
Sometime this summer there be be Lincoln Center MetroCards available from "Random MVMs" and not from Booths.
I scored one right from the horse's mouth, the MVM at 66 St. Here it is:
It must've been bad. Here in NW Nassau the temp on my thermometer read 100 degrees in the afternoon. I'm sure some subway platforms were even hotter. And those R33 singles were probably empty except for a few brave souls.
Still 90 degrees here in the hotlands of Nassau county, 86F in my A/C cooled room, 96 in my hallway, and my Kitchen is at 100 degrees!
"and my Kitchen is at 100 degrees!
"
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen! : )
Interestingly, this excessive heat in the subway problem seems to be only in New York. Our correspondents in Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco don't seem to have the platform/tunnel heat problems New York has, even with a totally air-conditioned fleet.
An air conditioned fleet is part of the problem, it takes warm air out of the cars and dumps it into the tunnels as HOT AIR.
Do these other systems have the same kind of dynamic braking, ie hot resister grids, or do they use regenerative braking, butting the power back onto the power grids?
Are their lines even underground?
Are they deeper underground with more natural cool?
Do they have several million hot sweaty bodies crowding into the cars and platforms?
Do they have a fairy godmother?
Elias
I am sure Rob will add his comments. Atlanta's stations have Air COPnditioning and heating.
Baltimore and LA regenerate, the tunnels between the stations are bored tubes. Baltimore's stations have an intermedian concorse between the first set of steps and the fare mezz - the platform is one more level down. Lexington Market has one entrance at the fare level due to a low-level plaza. All stations air-conditoned.
All the newer systems learned from the pioneers - Boston & New York.
But, as I said - the excessive heat problem seems to be a New York problem - nobody in the SubTalk community outside of NYC seems to be screaming about suffocating in the summer months in the subway. It's been going on as long as SubTalk has been around.
I am on a borrowed PC, so I am not sure that this is even going to post. I am away from home and visiting friends here. We were sitting in a restaurant in Punxsutawney PA tonight, while outside two Buffalo & Pittsburgh diesels were making up a train.
The diesels had a fairly clean paint job of orange and black. They were numbered 451 & 452, and looked and sounded like SD-45's. By the time we finished, and got outside, they had departed.
Are there any railfans on the board who know the B & P and can identify this engines? Were they really SD-45's?
I would be surprised to find that there might still be SD-45's in active service after 35 years, so I am assuming that I ID'ed these engines wrong. Can anyone help?
They are rebuilt SD45's.
Buffalo & Pittsburgh locomotive roster
Bob,
Thanks for the response, and also the link.
I am really surprised to see SD-45's still in service, and even more surprised that my identification was correct. I will be back in Punxsutawney again tomorrow, and also Friday so I may get another look at them.
They really looked good, I wish I had a camera with me.
Thanks Again,
Karl B
SD45s aren't that unusual to see in service. There are still SD40s and GP30s in service.
-Hank
CP D&H still has 38's running upstate ... they're a bit crusty, but still running.
Hi Karl: I'm sure you're familiar with the SD45's most famous spotting feature...the flared radiators butbeware..BN had one or maybe a few SD40-2 with them! The SD45-2 didn't have the flared radiators but the radiator area was loner than on SD40. Oy vay..haven't I said the MRL must have the biggest feet of SD45's in the country? There must be at least 50 of them in service on MRL, some are -2's. Also [haven't seen them in a while] there were 4 F-45's, ex Susquehanna I think, some of the SD45's were in Susie Q colors for some time...called Bumble Bees here.One came back from Susie Q still in BM colors...AND had the LIVINGSTON home shop stencil still on it! Maybe this will give you an excuse to visit Livingston MT and see SD45's running [helpers mostly]! Then there's my el layout, such as it is.
NJT GP40PH's also have flared radiators: 4802 in Atlantic City.
Perhaps Karl B remembers 20-25 years ago when most SD45's were taken out of service for fuel economy when the price of energy skyrocketed.
I had three favorite SD-45's when I was still a young picture taking railfan in the mid to late 1960's.
The D & H bought three GM Demos and numbered them 801, 2 & 3. They were the only GM power on a RR that was all ALCO & GE at the time, so they traded them to EL for 3 U33C's. When Conrail started in 1976, the trade had to be undone, and the D & H got the SD-45's back.
I have a great picture of the three of them that I took in the fall of 1976. It was a cloudy gloomy day, and they were painted in the EL paint scheme, but in D & H colors. They were at Union Dale PA, marching up the hill to Ararat Summit.
Today, the engines are gone, the railroad is gone, and that great trackage is even gone. Trains don't go over Ararat Summit anymore!
I have a better photo of a NJT GP40PH-2's flared radiator:
NJT 4201
Also a MARC GP40WH-2:
MARC 56
and a Shore Line East GP40:
SLE 6696
churchbob these are cool fotos
churchbob these are cool fotos
Thank you.
BTW, that's chuchubob, as in "choochoobob", but "choochoobob" wasn't available as a Yahoo email name so I spelled it chuchubob.
I'd heard that due to the 20 cylinder engine they had a lot of broken crankshafts [also was told by MRL's roundhouse boss that they problem was cured.] MRL sure got loads of Sd45's from several roads... an SCL one showed up here in Clinchfield black ; some SP Kodachromes as well as grey SP ones, some W&LE, Susie Q's---I had the honors of working on Montana's diesel "transit museum" We sure had the stuff! Most now repainted. I guess we got so many SD45's because they were cheap...worth less than a GP7/9 and about 1/3 the price of an SD40 on the 2nd hand market.They seem to be doing OK tho.
Ok ok ok. I spent some time trying to learn how to ID all those look-alike diesels. Surprisingly, some of the best IDing features were the position of the gas tank and the air-resevior tank. Anyway, as far as I have ever seen, no SD40 has ever had a flared radiator. However, some SD45's do not have a flared radiator. But, all 45's are noticably longer than 40's. In the GP range, some 40's have a flared radiator, but most do not. However, they are different than the 80's and 35's in that they have extra flaring before the usual dynamic brake flare in the middle of the carbody. It's reminicent of the GP-30 look.
Anyway, I just so happened t take a pic of the NJT Geep flaring on the AC Trip. If you look at the below pic. The GP40 extra dynamic flaring starts at the orange stripe, the normal dynamic flaring starts at the blue stripe and then the radiator flaring starts at the NJT logo.
This is now in effect in most of Brooklyn and the South Bronx. I imagine the subway signals don't like that. Power may go out in parts of those areas. Pray your power stays on!
Makes me wonder if there are candles and working flashlights in my house?
Yeah well maybe you should go check instead of asking us ... ;-)
I coulda sworn that the MTA got their power officially from the NYPA, not Con Edison...
I do see Con Edison meters in subways. Like on 8th street Broadway BMT.
They do indeed. Problem is inadequate transmission lines between upstate and the city ... something NEVER addressed and the politicos felt that with the crappy economy and WTC being gone, there'd be no need to provide extra capacity any longer ... so nothing got done.
But it's delivered through ConEd lines.
Wow ... pity our politicos never did anything about additional lines between here and you guys ... upstate we have PLENTY of EXCESS power, but no way to get it to you guys. Enron stole the booty and the NYPSC ain't done squatola. But Joe Bruno got his baseball stadium.
It's virtually impossible to get any powerline built in the NYC area, thanks to the NIMBYs. It's even worse on LI - I can't wait for our grid to collapse so that dickhead Kessle and his NIMBY friends can get dumped and we can get the power plants we needed 10 years ago built here.
We should have opened Shoreham. It's too bad whenever we were in the dark the last few years, Lilco didn't point that out. We'd be fine with Shoreham now. instead, we've got a treehugges asshole who can't run anything right calling the shots, and bored suburban housewives worrying about gas fired plants that pollute less than 1 /10th as much as the plants they're slated to replace.
And before anyone asks, yes, I do in fact live near a gas turbine power plant. And no, it's not loud (in fact, you can barely hear it, even at the site boundry). Actually, I live near 2 (one 70's, one brand new), and an acient oil fired steam plant. The steamer's the loudest of the three, by far. You can't hear either turbine running, but I can always tell when the steamer's going.
Well ... before I get myself tagged as a bedwetting liberal, the Albany Steam plant is just a few miles from here (I used to live right by it) - used to burn COAL, now burns natgas ... on the edge of my property are major distribution lines so ain't no NIMBYing here. Shoreham was a bad location primarily because of the difficulty of evacuation if there ever was a need. THAT I can understand, it's a real issue. The cost of improving roads for a mass evacuation would just be insane.
That all said, the problem isn't necessarily the GENERATION capability - we've got PLENTY of electrons up here in upstate New York and more coming. A new plant is being built next to the Albany Steam plant that's four times the size, another one down in Greene county and others in other locations up here.
The PROBLEM is tranmission lines of sufficient capacity to TRANSPORT the electrons. That's the reason why all those jet turbines were planned around the city last year. Not because there weren't enough electrons, but because there wasn't the CAPACITY on the transmission lines to get those electrons into the city or Lung Island. Still ain't and if one line goes down at the Dunwoodie interconnect, the city is in a heap of trouble.
But if those transmission lines were built (even if buried underground) that would solve the problem. There's two paths into the city - one through Westchester, the other under the river from Jersey. Building up EITHER would solve the problem. It's PSE&G that just acquired the Albany Steam Plant from Niagara Mohawk so it would appear that New York's "watts for tots" might well be coming across underground from Jersey. I don't think they would have purchased it otherwise. That tells me that Westchester is the problem as far as the city's power supply goes. But you guys need to settle that out somehow.
Additional power plants down your way will be required down the road, but for now there's plenty of power for the city and the island. Only problem is how do we GET it there? :)
tagged as a bedwetting liberal
No, no, no. The term is "paranoid bedwetting coward," not "liberal."
"Liberal" is used in the term "Upper West Side limousine liberal."
Hope that clears up any confusion.
Heh. The scarlet letter is used with impunity by people who can't even spell. :)
But thanks for the insurrection, now back to the Ozzy Osbourne show which is already in progress ...
Well LI has seen huge growth in the past 10 years and we need more power plants. The E.Northport site, former Kings Park Psychiatric center is a prime candidate, but the NIMBY's are trying to stop any power plant from coming.
And while NYC had enough power today, even though several areas had feeder cable problems, NYC is not in the clear. Since the city gets a large percentage of it's juice from upstate, a problem in the transmission line could cause big problems. Lets say severe thunderstorms or a fire shuts down one of the main transmission corrdiors to NYC. NYC finds itself short of power, tries to get more from LIPA and through the Farragut connection. Lines overheat from demand and trip out. Now NYC has only it's "Big Allis" plant able to function. But the unit can't keep up, and starts shutting down. Voltage reductions cannot stop the process as more generators trip out. And bam it's the blackout of'77 again. It is just as likely today. The City and LI need more generators, but the power NIMBY's hold cause strain on everything from power to transit to an area's economy. What we need to do, is just ignore NIMBY's and invoke these neccesary projects with eminant domain.
If we don't practice eminent domain for our power, our transportation, and our economy, we will all suffer.
i say let NYC fall into a blackout, point the finger at the NIMBYs and that should fix things.
People really don't understand how quiet the newest nat. gas turbines are, nor how clean and efficient the combined cycle plants are. An 88 Mw turbine plant is is quiet - you hear the faint whine of the jet engine's gearboxes, and that's it.
The big noisemarker on a jet engine is actually the gearbox - they're very loud. The air noise is quite easy to muffle in a stationary application. In any case, next time you're at an airport and can watch planes takeoff/lannd, listen as they taxi, you'll note the gearbox noise dominates. When they roll for takeoff, the airflow noise becomes greater.
I live a few blocks from one of these plants. You seriously can not tell when it's running by listening. Even outside it, you can barely tell it's running. And this is in a fairly quiet residential area.
(We should have opened Shoreham. It's too bad whenever we were in the dark the last few years, Lilco didn't point that out. We'd be fine with Shoreham now. instead, we've got a treehugges asshole who can't run anything right calling the shots)
He's trying to built windmills. I think it's a good idea, but the NIMBYs are out to stop him.
Windmills??? They've been around since farms started!!! These NIMBY's are sick in the head. They should be send to Creedmoor! Or Kings Park Psych center, when the recking balls hit!
I don't believe ConEd has a power shortage, it is that the feeder cables (most of them underground) are overheating from the strain of demand in those areas. A cable rated at say 20kV is trying to carry more due to high demand, and it is overheating.
This doesn't happen in LIPA territory as much, as almost all lines are above ground.
The "street distribution" is also a problem but ConEd HAS been going to fatter wires where they can as part of routine upgrades or replacements when things fall down completely. But the BIG problem that requires the brownouts AREAWIDE (not just at a particular substation or neighborhood) is saturation of the biggie lines into the city. It's been six years since I worked at the PSC but at that time, during peak, 40% of the NYC area's power was imported. Generation capacity within the local grid has actually DIMINISHED since but I don't know what percent is imported now ... it will be more than before however and there's been no increase in transmission line capacity. If and when we have an economy again, that's going to hurt ... bigtime ...
All the squatolas responses....Con Ed does not reduce power. What they do is to reduce VOLTAGE in anticipation of lower power demands of resistive loads like lightbulbs. AC motors continue to demand the same wattage and will burn out without low voltage protection. It's hot in Joisey too...I'm hunting Mr. Coyote with appropriate center fire wearing nothing but sandals and a slingshot. Standard warm weather CI protective gear.
God, what is your problem? This is like your 8th post on the heat. Give it a rest already. You bitch when it's hot, you bitch when it's cold. Aren't you ever happy? Give it a freakin' rest already. Deal with it, like everyone else is . GEEZ!
Peace,
ANDEE
< rant mode >
And maybe we'll get lucky, your power will go out and stay out and you won't be able to post such drivel. Give it a rest already! We all know it's hot... it is summer, after all... and it's going to be hot whether we like it or not. All your bitching does is raise the temperature and everyone's blood pressure!
< /rant mode >
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did the R-40 slants have marker light as pictured in this photo.
I don't know, but that was back when the R-40 slants looked awesome! The extra metal on their face now is a travesty.
The extra metal does give them a sort of odd insectile look, but if you ever walked between two end cars while they were in service (before the added railings) you'd know instantly why they had to do it.
The original R40 ends are a classic example of an error in industrial design.
I think they are a rare example of allowing someone with style ("Raymond Lowey of Pennsylvania Railroad GG-1 fame") the freedom to design what he thought would be good looking cars. And he did a good job. I wish they'd be able to remove the railing and those metal springy things from the first and last cars. Similar to how the R-143's (and other previous models) manage to have a clean face while the inbetween cars have all the safety features. But I know that in reality this can't be done because it was not designed that way. That's why we have photos from the past. And that's why I take photos now - to remember the past.
It looks like there were loops on the original designs to install the oversized springs like the R-44,46,62,68,110a,110B,142,143. That would have looked a hell of a lot better than the scissor like gates.
The semi-new R62s and R62As have sissor gates. But the R68 and R68As don't for some reason.
That kind of scissor gate with the metal frame is called a pantograph, just like the power collectors on top of a GG1.
Yes, the first of the cars did. Later R40 slants lacked them.
-Hank
That was the "Express" "Local" light. The switch is still inside the cabs today.
Where does it go?
It's at the upper corner nearest to the emergency brake. Facing the doorway.
Gee, let's see if we can figure this out together given the meager evidence we have.
1) We have a photo of a pre-GOH R-40 slant!
2)The photo shows that the cars had a red "express" and green "local" marker light.
So let's see - photo shows R-40S. R-40S had a marker light. From this we'd have to conclude that ____________ (you fill in hte blank) - Duh.
By the same logic, 76th St exists.
-Hank
now lets not start that 76st myth thing again...
"Tear it down!" :)
"By the same logic, 76th St exists."
Ah, but 76th Street does exist. I've actually driven on it when I had a business in Howard beach. However, there is no implied linkage with the alleged station, there. The 'markers' on the R-40 did exist - I worked on them. The station may have been a drawing on some modelboard but I know of no one who's ever seen the station.
Now was that an 8 car train?
That is the Express/Green and Local/Red indicators. These are the ones you can still find on the Redbirds. The R-32, R-38, and R-40S all had these too. They were removed when they went through GOH. At least the 40S didn't lose it's rollsign with it like the 33 & 38's.
Did marker lights have subway cars to display and carry them around?
From the Sydney [Australia] Morning Herald. They report a suggestion
for some major transit improvements in Sydney.
Subway lover that I am, I recognize that buses, properly used, are usually
cheaper and faster, particularly for less populous areas. Something
like this would work in New York -- provided some serious bus-only streets
and expressway-lanes are there to handle the load.
For Brooklyn, I'd dedicate either the BB tunnel or the BBridge to busses
only, along with dedicated Gowanus/BQE lanes. Queens'd either get the 59th
St Bridge or the QM tunnel, with dedicated BQE/LIE lanes. The Bronx would
get something similar. West St. and First Avenue would be bus only. There
would be crosstown busses on bus-only streets, about 5 blocks apart. There'd
be lotsa cops and tow trucks to keep the bus only streets clear.
Nice post, wrong location.
Try BusTalk
Bill "Newkirk"
Roo bars definetly over anticlimbers.
Mayor Acknowledges M.T.A. May Have to Raise Fares in '03
By MICHAEL COOPER
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg acknowledged yesterday what some transportation experts and ratings agencies have been saying for some time: the Metropolitan Transportation Authority may need to raise fares next year.
For the full story, http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/04/nyregion/04FARE.html
-Hank
I loved the "it's premature to discuss a fare increase" from da gov's staff. Yeah, it ain't NOVEMBER yet. Sheesh. What a pander bear. But Joe Bruno got his BASEBALL STADIUM and that cost about 5% of what the MTA needs to break even right there. That money could have helped if it wasn't spent on a baseball stadium out in the middle of a trailer park.
Keep in mind that Mike Bloomberg is above all - a business man (a very rich one at that).
Businessmen like him have no problems about raising prices regardless of the impact to the consumer.
Pataki on the otherhand is a politician first so he will put the consumer (at least on paper) ahead especially during an election year.
Will the fare increase in 2003 - who knows?
It SHOULD have gone up this year.
-Hank
Ummm ... while the city has representation on the MTA board, it's a MINORITY representation. The mayor of New York can no more singlehandedly raise fares than *I* can. If he can manage to pursuade the Long Island members, the Westchester, Rockland and Dutchess members perhaps, but they're all beholden to the Governor who can say "nah-ah-ah" and while the Gov has no vote on the board, you don't cross the second floor if you're a political appointee to the MTA board and have hopes of a future promotion.
If the fare goes up, it won't be Mayor Mike, it'll be Paturkey ...
Of course it's the fault of the employees asking for a huge raise. I haven't heard anything from the union as to what's going on with our contract or if they're even negotiating yet.
Here's the same story from Thursday's Daily News. It will be interesting to see how this plays out not only with Pataki, but with Cuomo and McCall, since Bloomberg's statement places the possibility of a fare hike in the political spotlight, where it hadn't been until now.
No doubt Pataki won't be very happy with Mike for putting this forward, since he's now going to have to say something about the future of the $1.50 fare before the November election. With his current lead in the polls he might be able to get away with saying a fare hike is possible, but there's no way he's going to go as far as Bloomberg (who doen't have to run againt until 2005 -- politicians are almost always at their bravest the year after they win a four-year term).
At the same time, it alo means Cuomo and McCall will have to state their positions on raising the fare. The most likely one would be to guarentee no fare hike if elected, and then if they do win come back and jack up the fare to at least $1.75 next year while blaming it on Bush, Minetta and Congress -- something Pataki definitely cannot do (or, of course, the or George could order the MTA to go back to deferred maintenance of the 1960s and 70s to keep the fare at $1.50, and we all know how much fun that caused).
Well, you know what? As long as all the percentage discounts continue for the various MetroCards, I can see it.
People forget that because of the various MC discounts, that the average price of a subway trip is down to about $1.05
Therefore, it seems to me that the people who use the system the most will be affected the least.
For instance, I use the subway to get to and from work every day. But I seldom use it otherwise, so I buy the 11-for-10 MetroCard. I get a small discount.
On the other hand, someone who uses the subway many times a day would -- while still paying more up front for their MetroCard -- probably still pay *much less* per trip than I do. It's congestion pricing. I think it will work. I'm for it.
Anything that helps promote continued improvements to the subways, I personally am all for.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Cars 6391-95 and Cars 6401-03 were travelling south this evening without 6404-05. A diesel was following behind the train. Has something happened?
-Stef
6496-6500 were pushing 6405 and 6404 just moments ago. A Flagman was in the front, T/O was in the operating cab. There appeared to be a large object in 6405. A linkbar?
There was no power in Car 6404, and no power in 6403, on the previous train. Looks like the flagman was in the dark....
-Stef
And I thought the R=142s had just had their first fight...:-)
Guess what? They had a pull apart! And not from the coupler, From a link bar! What great cars we have here!
Uh oh! That's a no no. Yikes.
-Stef
These cars are the second coming of the R44's.
Don't say that! We don't need to wish for more trouble. Heh.
-Stef
It's a case of a disorderly R-142 that just won't cooperate today.
-Stef
Hah, A R-62 or redbird can handle a brownout but a R-142A will just go into emergency and not move.
Mark, my source WAS correct! I had heard about this earlier yesterday from one of 'your homies'.
Was that train in-service when the incident occurred?
Sounds like a case of metal-fatigue (to go along with folks suffering from heat-fatigue). If the R-142's had a link-bar problem so early in their running, keep your hats on....we ain't seen nothing yet.
That's Japanese steel for ya! Remember the '73 Fords? That's the year they tried to use Japanese steel, and what a mistake that turned out to be! Garbage then, garbage now!
And what do Canadian cars have to do with Japanese steel?????
I thought those cars were manufactured by Kawasaki. That's what it says in the roster anyway.
What does a plane manufacturer (bomdadier) have to do with trains?
Umm...Bombardier built the R-142s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bombardier is one of the worlds largest manufacturers of transportation systems. Planes, trains, busses, snowmobiles...anything that can get you there they can and do make. Problem with R142s is that too many hands got involved spoiling the product. Time can heal wounds and the vendors are stuck with problems they created until trainsets become reliable for RTO service. In the meantime, Redbirds continue to fill the gap and provide RELIABLE service despite their age. CI Peter
I'm fully aware of what Bombardier manufactures. It's BUILDMORELINES who seems perplexed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry about that...no offense intended. CI Peter.
'In the Hole BIE SPEAK ENGLISH.'
No offense taken.
Peace,
ANDEE
ANd the redbirds aren't affected by brownouts to the point where the train will not get out of emergency.
Duh, "Buildmore", where do you get all of this incorrect inside information? You might want to listen more and pontificate less.
2 sundays ago there was a brownout at GCS on the 4,5,6 lines. A 6 train was stuck hlaf way into the northbound local track. A R-142A had a BIE due to a brownout, the t/o recharged and then the train immidiatly went into BIE and he gave up. A R-62 4 passed me on the local track and later redbird 5. This was around 8:40 PM. I had brief chat with the T/O until he went back and tryed agian and the train worked and he pulled all the way into the station. The T/O said the he can't move the train because Con-Ed brownouted the system. The brownout was over after 10 minutes. The time 19:47 out of Brooklyn Bridge is what I think the train was but don't quoate me on it. I did write down the real time but I have to find it.
If anything, an R142 and R142A can get out of a brownout. Wasn't there stuff about there being enough power left in an R142/R142A's "reserve" to get it to the next station in case something happens?
You seem to be drawing an incorrect conclusion based on one observation. The converter on all NYCT cars are designed to shut down if 3rd rail voltage dips below 475 VDC. Converter drops out - CHOW.
The converter on all NYCT cars are designed to shut down if
3rd rail voltage dips below 475 VDC. Converter drops out
- CHOW.
Whoa, I don't get that! Obviously the train doesn't go in the
hole everytime a 3rd rail gap is encountered. The only thing close
I've heard of is that on ECAM equipment dropping the B3 will cause
a BIE although I don't understand the circuit that causes that.
Jeff, you are correct They don't go into emergency but will eventually lose power if the 'brown-out' is severe enough. By the same token, I don't believe that the R-142s will go into emergency with an 8% Con-Ed reduction.
Oh OK I see what you mean. Agreed, even a 10 or 20% third rail
voltage reduction shouldn't cause BIEs.
This thing with dropping the B3 and causing an emergency application
is fairly new. On "old school" equipment a loss of battery
would not do that.
One thing about R142s is that the design of the electronics package must survive the constant transients posed by a cast steel shoe making contact with a forged steel third rail of known high DC resistive losses. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to analyse actual 'foot by foot' voltage measurements which could now be done so easily. As long as one 'B car' makes proper contact, things are 'hunky dory.' A trainset off-rail with operative nicad cells will have systems live for hours...a loss of air pressure after will engage mechanical parking brakes presumably before a BIE. CI Peter
As long as one 'B car' makes proper contact,
things are 'hunky dory.'
There is no busline 600VDC between cars in a set, is there?
So, in a 5 car ABBBA set, if 2 of the B cars are sitting on
a gap, wouldn't the converters and compressors in those cars
be dead? Does a single B car have enough capacity to supply
4 other cars?
As I understand it, on the 142s, there is no trainline air or
B+ between two link sets.
The train would be able to move in the event of a power loss? Do you know the distance involved if so? Maybe through one of the east river tubes?
No trainset would be able to move in a power loss from the third rail. My comments specifically addressed failures in battery or invertor. As long as there is one car making contact with a live third rail, the trainset will move. As long as there is only one battery set feeding trainline, all R142 control systems will remain alive and kicking. What fully charged batteries will not do is provide motor (propulsion power,) HVAC and air compressor. One big drain that goes unoticed by the public is lighting...the fluorescent lights all use 37.5 volt transistorised invertors that depend upon the batteries and the convertor. If an R142 engages complete power failure it will continue to move 'free wheeling' until gravity overcomes the momentum or the T/O operates the brakes draining the reserve air below 90 PSI when the parking brakes automatically engage. CI Peter
One thing about R142s is that the design of the electronics package must survive the constant transients posed by a cast steel shoe making contact with a forged steel third rail of known high DC resistive losses. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to analyse actual 'foot by foot' voltage measurements which could now be done so easily. As long as one 'B car' makes proper contact, things are 'hunky dory.' A trainset off-rail with operative nicad cells will have systems live for hours...a loss of air pressure after will engage mechanical parking brakes presumably before a BIE. CI Peter
Let me get this straight:
A subway train, of multiple-unit cars with motors that are supposed to start all at once, pulled apart like a freight train with locos pulling thousands of tons of objects at the point would after thousands of miles of service???
Not a good sign. Then again its summer in NYC. Stranger things have happened.
Such baloney!!!! (balogna) 'A' car seperated coupling from 'B' car in linkage and electric cables (linkage) broken but pneumatic hoses not seperated. T/O lost power, trainset hung up 28 minutes. Manufacturer left out crucial pin in linkage. 'Willoghby, this stop is Willoughby, Next stop Twilight Zone.' CI Peter
Thats Right!!! It happened southbound in the River tube south of 149 St Grand Concause in service. It was the 8th car at the time. Also it pulled apart again during testing.
Please guys, lets not get carried away. The sky ain't falling yet. There was no testing and the cars did not pull apart again. There was a mechanical failure in and around the draft gear & link bar. This is very rare but it's happened before. I can only remember it happening on R-38 and possibly R-44 (one time each). In any event, when a linkbar failure occurs there is extensive damage to the greenfield cables that carry trainline info. It'll be a while before these cars will be re-married and tested.
Dame lucky that no one feel though the gap while the train split apart.
Robert
Thanks for the currection. There was a heavy rumor going around about the second pull apart.
The TA runs on paper and rumors.
Do the rumors come on a roll too? :)
There was a pull-apart in 180 yard. The TLD showed all connections made for a 10 car train and when they went to move OOPS!
The TOD will not indicate mechanical failure. You should count the number of stretched out safety springs in the junkpiles...most resulted from T/Os failing to properly couple up five car trainsets together. The best is when the stretched out broken spring contacts the third rail...July 4th all year.
I never said that the screen showed a mechanical failure. If all the cars are coupled correctly the screen would show your consist.
The last R44 pullapart I recall happened around 145 Street years ago and was blamed on a missing cotter pin which allowed a pin and nut assembly to walk out of the link bars ends. I somehow see the same cause here.
There's Bombardier for ya.
Why do you think their name starts with 'Bomb'? Self explanatory, huh? ;-D
But then again, you can always say "Kawasucky"
LOL!
Remember BombBardIer is the Bomb-Bard-Ier for quality trains.
A pull apart from a LINK BAR? That's ALL BAD! I hope that nobody was aboard when it happened.
wayne
So not really divorced - just a trial separation.
A linkage pin was ommited by the manufacturer and an 'A' car seperated from a 'B' car with hoses remaining intact but the T/O lost power and the trainset came to a halt without BIE. The delay was twenty eight minutes in legnth, passengers were escorted out of the trainset through the tunnel and the defect is NOT visible to CIs in the inspection process. Redbirds continue to replace R142s in RTO service. A previous problem was an R142 B car losing both AC units...the passengers held the doors open demanding AC repair until the arrival of TAPD. The loss was charged to TAPD for holding up RTO schedule. Always 'bring your own JUICE' when riding Bombardier R142s. CI Peter
If both of the trainline control networks are severed on a 142,
what happens? Does the train go into emergency?
I would hope so...
The initial delay may have been 28 minutes but the total delay was 111 minutes.
111 minutes is always as good as a random call down with nine minutes to spare. Haven't heard the 'YaMon call-up from Putzburgh' concerning missing parts, just the PA blaring for me cuz another CI is missing for Red Hot Redbirdsky Undercar. Now I really know what 'baloney springs' are for...and I'll take BORING R142 Carbody assignments over to 239th anytime during the summer.
With recent talk about Car 6666 and a stuck controller, I'd thought I'd mention what an unlucky car it is-
Car 6666 went BIE at Jackson Av this afternoon, but moved out rather quickly.
On the R-32 front, Cars 3558 and 3559 were coupled together, but with different partners! How often do you get that? It's a case of Odd Couples swinging together.
-Stef
Must have been Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. Were 3558 and 3559 on speaking terms?:-)
They were on friendly terms, but didn't share the same bond they used to have. Lol!
-Stef
I'm sure there was a "Hey - long time no see!" included in the pleasantries.:-) Next thing you know they'll reconcile and ask to be rejoined together.
What cars are used on the LIRR Port Jefferson branch? Do they use the double decker cars or only the MU's? I remember being at Mineola last year and trains with double decker cars were all coming off the Oyster Bay branch. I'm hoping the Port Jeff branch also has the double decker cars since I might be riding that line soon.
Electric service on the PJ Branch only goes as far as Huntington. Diesel service is provided between Huntington & Port Jefferson.
and Diesel service means the double-deckers, along with the F-59PHI in diesel mode.
A nice comfortable train (been on them). I want them to run faster (and what I want depends on a lot of other things much more than the trainsets), but overall I like them.
A nice comfortable train (been on them). I want them to run faster (and what I want depends on a lot of other things much more than the trainsets), but overall I like them.
The seats on the diesel coaches are much more spacious than those on the MU's. Plus, there's none of that wretched 3-across seating.
The train I'm looking to take requires a transfer at Huntington. Does that mean it will be electric Mu's out to Huntington and then a change to double-deckers? Or not necessarily?
The train I'm looking to take requires a transfer at Huntington. Does that mean it will be electric Mu's out to Huntington and then a change to double-deckers?
Yes
Boo. I wanted double-deckers all the way. Oh well. Thanks for replying.
Approximately alternate PJ trains on weekends (including July 4 only) originate at Hicksville, so you can see the entire line from a DD. They are the 7:04a, 10:04a, 1:04p, 4:04p, 7:04p departures from Hicksville.
You are not getting a complete answer:
Service to points west from Port Jefferson is widely mixed throughout the day.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, terminate at Huntington, and an Electric train continues to the city.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, terminate at Hicksville, and an Electric train continues to the city.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, and continue all the way to Penn Station with no transfers. There are approxomately two of these in each direction each weekday during peak hours. They take advantage of new dual-mode capability.
One Diesel train leaves from Stony Brook (why, I don't know) and connects with Electric service at Huntington.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, terminate at Jamaica, where Electric service continues to NYC.
Some Diesel trains begin at Port Jefferson, terminate at Hunterspoint Ave, with connecting service available at Jamaica to other points west.
But no matter what, all trains are diesel on the un-electrified track betwen Port Jefferson and Huntington. It depends on which train you take as to how far towards the city that diesel train will go.
Now, you want double deckers all the way. Here are your options:
Weekday towards Port Jeff:
4:19 depart Penn
6:05 arrive Port Jeff
peak (stops at Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville, Huntington, then local)
106 minutes
4:49 depart Penn
6:36 arrive Port Jeff
peak (stops at Jamaica, Huntington, then local)
107 minutes
Weekday towards Penn Station:
5:44am depart Port Jeff
7:20am arrive Penn Station
peak (local stops to Greenlawn, then express to Jamaica and Penn)
96 minutes
7:35am depart Port Jeff
9:23am arrive Penn Station
peak (local stops to Hicksville, then Mineola, Jamaica, and Penn)
108 minutes
No direct weekend service. Why? I don't know. What a waste of expensive captial investment!!!!
Hope this helps!
-Andrew Merelis
Train 657 actually departs Port Jeff when 660 comes in. It starts picking up passengers at Stony Brook because it is a single tracked line with controlled sidings, and with the 10 minute each way between PJ and SB would not give enough time for its meet with 662, unless the train leaves earlier between 658 and 660 with a new Huntington connection departure. Weekends right now only have trains going as far as Hicksville from PJ because of the Montauk Branch trackwork west of Valley Interlocking, and with that in mind, most diesel trains east of Babylon are being diverted onto the connecting Central Branch which runs from Babylon to B interlocking (Bethpage, and the Main Line), and continues west through Divide Interlocking (Hicksville) where the PJ Branch connects with the Main Line. 2 Westbounds, and 3 Eastbounds on the Montauk Branch temporarilly have through trains to Penn Station (1 westbound from Speonk, and Patchogue, and 2 Eastbounds to Patchogue, and 1 to Speonk). With demand on the PJ branch stations, I am sure that eventually more trains from Port Jeff will be direct to Penn Station. In reality, once the GCT connector opens, most trains will go direct to Penn Station, once more spaces through the East River Tunnels open up.
F59PHI??????
LIRR doesn't have any such animals.
Try a DM30 for the dual modes.
Check the roster...they're aliased to the F-59s
Under the MTA Capital Plans section, I see a contract labeled 'R34156' for nine diesel-electric locomotives. Are all 'R' contracts labeled 'R34###', thus the R142 are actually 'R34142'?
-Hank
Hank is correct. Before the "contract" numbers went over 99, the leading digits were "314." The overhaul of the R-29 cars was contract R-31499.
David
Hello. I have noticed that on a few signals in the Subway, there are times when the Station-Time aspect is on even though there is no train directly past it. There is one such signal approaching Brighton Beach and another one approaching Atlantic Avenue, both on the southbound Brighton Line. However, according to the signals page on this website, the Station-Time aspect is only supposed to be active when there is a train immediately past it. So, what is going on with these signals?
- Lyle Goldman
The signals are always on.
They only act differently when there is a train in the station ahead.
Grade Time signals are always effective, and normally Red.
Station Timers just stop "looking" at the farthest part of their block when an approaching train has run the timer. They would normally be Green, or Yellow.
Put GT and ST together on the same signal, and you get one that's normally red (GT) but displays "20" or whatever ST speed, because the conditions are met for the ST timer to run as well.
Since there is no train anywhere in advance, the signal clears when the GT timer runs out, which is sligtly sooner than the ST.
Where is the illuminated ST coming from, the back contact of the
ST U relay? Should not that circuit also be broken through back
contacts of the track relays in advance that are cut-around by
the timer front contacts? Otherwise you get this exact
sloppiness of having ST on with no train in the station.
On a related note, as a result of the new Queen Plaza re/over-signaling project, there are some interesting semantics.
I believe I've mentioned that when leaving on D4 track with a
G/Y lineup, I've seen the signal display Y/R briefly just as
the train passes it. More consistently, at 36 St, when the tower
clears the route northbound onto the local track, the automatic
just beyond the switch, which was solid red, briefly displays
Red/ST20, then yellow, then green. Odd!
...at 36 St, when the tower clears the route northbound onto the local track, the automatic just beyond the switch, which was solid red, briefly displays Red/ST20, then yellow, then green. Odd!
That seems right. Automatics leaving plants will stay red until a route leads to them, to prevent over-reading. When the route is lined, and the stop is driving, all the conditions for the "20" to be lit are met briefly until the signal clears.
Then they are not really "automatics", are they? I don't believe
this behavior was typical for unit lever plants.
Then they are not really "automatics", are they? I don't believe
this behavior was typical for unit lever plants.
It's a wierd case, they're like "demi-automatics." They aren't lever controlled like an approach, but still affected by the plant indirectly.
I don't know how universally the rule about over-reading is applied at the TA. There are cases like the NB switch in the Montague Tube where you see a bottom yellow for Broad St, but then clear automatics leading up to Whitehall.
Gentlemen,
After observing QueensPlaza new signals, when they clear from RED on their normal GT settings they flash YELLOW to GREEN all the time. Though this heat I've been taking the N/W more then the R >G< and the timer before the platform up there (not changed hehe) does not do this.
"lazy distants"
The more I read the orinal post the more I think he and others are confusing grade and ST signals.
How do you know station-time is in effect, and not grade-time?
There's a little number lit up in the place of the "G" or "D". A white number usually indicates the speed to approach to expect it to clear.
Even though the little number is lit up, it still could be a grade-time signal. We have a bunch of those on the White Plains line, north of Gun Hill Rd.
Perhaps they put a number instead of the white light like most of them do?
Yes. And the numbers are yellow, which some T/O's don't like. Most T/O's are used to the white light that is associated with a "one-shot" timer.
My favorite is at the south end of 238 on the 1 it says 22 when on station time but it is also an approach to the homeball at the north end of the station. Sometimes it clears sometimes it does'nt.
They had the Station-Time aspect (the little speed number). They could be Grade-Time signals, too, but it was the Station-Time aspect that was on.
Here's a little more information. Between De Kalb Avenue and Atlantic Avenue on the southbound Brighton Line, there is a series of Two-Shot Grade-Time signals. Most of them clear upon approach of the Y/S (Yellow with an S under it). However, the last one, right in front of the station, doesn't clear on approach of the Y/S. Instead, it is always red with the little number lit up, even when no train is right past it, every time my train approaches it. However, from the signals page on the website, it would seem that the Station-Time aspect (red with the little number lit up) should only be active when there is a train a small distance past it. In this case, however, that is not always the case. That is what's confusing me. Does anyone know what exactly I'm referring to?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes. Instead if the lunar white, they put a number. I think that's the situation the original poster was referring to.
It has a number, this isn't a grade timer, it is a grade DIE AT'er. The train has to be under 5mph almost stopped for it to clear (from frequent observation).
Not out in Brighton. The one out in Brighton acts just like a lunar white but with a station time plate.
Is that Brighton Line signal the one on the southbound track just north of (just before entering) the Atlantic Avenue station? That was converted some time ago to a one-shot grade timer (which immediately follows a series of two-shot grade timers but is not coordinated with them). I believe that the station timer function still works; there are some timers in the system that function either way, and in those cases usually there's both a "S" (proper "Speed") plate and a plate with a number on it indicating the speed limit under station time -- this one has only the number.
David
A lit number implies that a lower-than-posted speed is required, becuase the far end of the block in advance is occupied by a leaving train.
Since GT's are always active, and time to the posted speed, why would you need to specify a different speed on a GT signal head?
I'm not saying that you couldn't ever have a GT which displays a lit speed aspect, but it would be a departure from typical TA signal practise.
The signal I'm talking about IS a departure from standard practice. It was not built the way it is now -- it's a kludge.
David
I guess we come back to the question of how is the ST numeral
aspect illuminated? I've never seen typicals on this, and it
is a fairly recent practice (late 1960s onward). Typical STs
don't have any indicator.
As you said further up the thread, typical ST is that once the
train enters the timing section (often the track circuit immediately
in approach to the signal in question), the time element relay
starts running. When it runs time, it cuts around some of the
front contacts of track circuits in advance (the "dotted" portion
of the control line). So what makes the numeral come on? The
clean way would be to "just add a line circuit" that breaks on
the back contacts of the dotted portion, and the front contacts
of the solid portion, so the light comes on when station timing
is actually in effect. The cheap way is to just check through
the solid section, i.e. re-use the existing line circuit, and of
course break through the back contact of H, HS, V or DV as
appropriate. So, if that is the case, the numeral will come on
whenever the signal is at danger and the track in the solid portion
of the control line is clear, regardless of whether something
else is holding the signal down (tower control, grade time).
Just a theory.;
The last one.
No. It's on the A1 Track prior to entering the Brighton Beach Station. Red/#/Red. It's a home signal with both lights red till it clears and a number aspect. If I remember correctly, it used to be a traditional timer but one day I saw it and was expecting a train ahead but I looked on one more station down and didn't see anything.
Speaking of station signals, There is a little yellow speed sign that once in a while you'll see the letters "ST" on it which to me indicates that there is a station time signal ahead.
#3 West End Jeff
If it's a One-Shot Grade Timer, why does it normally display the Station-Time aspect, and why does the signal before it have a lit "S" under it?
- Lyle Goldman
As I said, it was built as a station timer. When it was modified, the plate was not replaced. It is not coordinated with the two-shots preceding it (the ones with the "S" plates).
David
Like Lyle G said, two-shots are coordinated with the signal in approach, which displays "S" only if the NEXT signal is a 2-shot.
By rights, if there is a ST condition on a signal that's GT-ST, then the preceeding head should not display an "S"
But remember, the NYCS is so huge, that there isn't the exacting standardization of practise you would find on a smaller road.
If this signal had been built as a grade timer, it likely would have been the last two-shot in the series and would have been coordinated with the two-shots preceding it. This signal, however, was built with a station timing element ONLY, thus the lighted "15" speed plate. It was converted around 2 years ago to a one-shot grade timer, not a two-shot, but the "15" plate remains, so it LOOKS like a station timer -- but it isn't anymore.
David
Then why does the preceding signal have an illuminated S? This means to me that the next signal (your convert) should clear if I approach the S at the posted speed. Or am I missing something here?
If it is now a single-shot timer with no posted speed, who do we get to fix the damned thing?
Because it's one of them newfangled "three shots" based on the Mega Millions campaign. Sheesh. :)
Yeah, 3 shots, then "you're out" pounding the pavement!
Is it a rule that there must be a posted speed for GT's? I know you normally see a GT15 sign, but sometimes you just get a "T" at the beginning of the timing section. I dunno.
It's not a rule - the T sign is enough. However, when a GT XX plate exists, all the timers following it are supposed to clear at that speed until a new plate with a different speed appears - like going NB from 59 to 36, where the GT speed goes from 30 down to 15.
My problem is timers with no GT or T plate beforehand, such as X2 on C2 Track and the following automatic going into Bedford Park Middle - both are on time, but there is no warning.
There used to be an ST plate on that automatic just outside of Bedford Park center and another in the center of the platform. I've done that one 30 years ago ...
The preceding signal has an illuminated "S" because it is a grade timer and was built as such. The signal I'm talking about was built only as a station timer (with an illuminated "15"), and it was converted to a one-shot grade timer (though I believe the station time mechanism is still in place and functional as well) WITHOUT ADDING A LUNAR WHITE ASPECT OR AN ILLUMINATED "S" for some reason.
It is something that should be brought to the attention of the Signals people.
David
The preceding signal has an illuminated "S" because it is a grade timer and was built as such.
No signal with an "S" is a GT just because of the "S" aspect. All the "S" proves is that the NEXT signal is a GT. The signal could be a GT if the signal before it has an "S," as in a long string of timers on a down grade.
Remember, "S" means 2-shot, and how could you get your second shot if the "S" signal is the one timing you?
"1st shot" is approaching the Y/S and "2nd shot" is appraching the actual GT which is stays Red if your train crosses the 1st timing section too soon.
it was converted to a one-shot grade timer ... WITHOUT ADDING A LUNAR WHITE ASPECT OR AN ILLUMINATED "S" for some reason.
GT's do not require that any extra aspect be displayed, (but it's a good idea). Case and point are the GT's in the 14th St tubes, where the T/O simply wraps it up, and flys down the hill facing red signals with stops raised.
I thought that the "S" meant that the next signal past that one was the 2-Shot Grade-Time signal. However, the signal before the signal in question has the "S" under it. If the signal in question is a 1-Shot Grade Timer, what's the "S" for?
- Lyle Goldman
Rule 66(e) GRADE TIME "GT" SIGNAL
A fixed signal used to enforce a predetermined speed on descending grades or at other locations; this signal is always preceded by a Time Control "T" Sign and a sign designating the allowable speed in miles per hour or by a "GT" Sign.
(f) "S" SIGNAL
A fixed signal bearing the letter "S" which, when illuminated together with a caution indiction, indicates that the Grade Time Signal immediately in advance is displaying a STOP indication which may be cleared by a train approaching said "S" signal at a predetermined speed.
David
From DeKalb the signals go:
Y/G (X96); R/LW; Y/G/S; Y/S; Y/S; R/15; Atlantic Ave
Passing the second Y over ill.S at the posted speed should make the R/15 clear, but doesn't. However, holding a steady 10mph from that signal will get the R/15 to clear about 15 feet in front of the train (if you don't mind playing chicken).
So, the last Y/S just doesn't upgrade to green, then? (ever?)
Truth is stranger than fiction.
"Braaak Braaak, Polly shouldn't be!"
I'm not sure - I could crawl at it and see what happens, but someone on board will probably complain.
someone on board will probably complain
Well yeah, there's that.
DeKalb is enough of a crawl as it is!
maybe this is just the exception that proves the rest of the rules...
Sounds like one of those locations where the control line
lengths were increased as part of the 1995 WB over-reaction.
I know those rules. However, like I've been saying, the signals that I am referring to don't seem to follow those rules.
- Lyle Goldman
They way they taught me was. the Yellow S was "approach me at allowable speed and the next signal will clear" the lunar red "approach me at allowable speed and I will clear" and when the GT sohlud yellow with no S it was "wake uo stupid the next one is red and is not going to clear for you."
That's the way I remember it too ... so what's changed? :)
So far all I've seen is 10's and 15's instead of 15's and 20's ...
Nothing's changed.
Lotta the new signals have LED 20's instead of lit plates.
-But CBTC will use some clever algorhythm to revise the allowable speed second to second. I just hope the software engineers remember to carry the two.
I dunno ... the way things have been going, the system won't be happy until all trains are operated from end to end in switching. What's that smell? :)
remember, its not MTA NYCRT :-)
Heh. Yeah, I have to keep slapping myself. :)
That's what I thought, too. However, that doesn't seem to be happening with this particular signal.
- Lyle Goldman
> It has a number, this isn't a grade timer, it is a grade DIE AT'er.
Could you explain this further, please?
- Lyle Goldman
> There's a little number lit up in the place of the "G" or "D".
I've never seen a "G" lit up under a signal. What does that indicate?
- Lyle Goldman
I couldn't find a "G" in the rule book. Closest I could come was "GF" for Gap Filler.
David
The signal in approach to a 2-shot GT / ST signal shouldn't display the "S" unless the whole block is clear, i.e: ST is not in effect.
One-shots are "dicier" so if you couldn't see down the tracks, I guess you'd be careful and assume the longer, ST, timer.
A lotta times the only clue to ST is the yellow "ST-20" sign, since the lighted number is not present on the signal in many cases.
It seems that almost every R143 in the fleet makes a squealing stop. Yesterday, I had to quickly put on my ear plugs because one of the 143's was making a total racket while making a stop. And this was outside!
Are any of the managers in the TA aware of this? And if so, are they in the plans of correcting this? It doesn't seem right that these new cars should be operating like crap.
I hear the brakes on both the R-142 and R-143 are of such a design that the squealing noise is normal, acceptable, and not going away any time soon.
The R142A's are the same way.
The R-143 sounds exactly like the R-142A -- and, yes, that brake squeal is painful. The R-142 isn't nearly as bad, although it sometimes has a slight squeal as well.
Get used to it, especially if the R-160 bid goes to Kawasaki.
But for people living on els it could be a problem. You just know that people who live there will start complaining about the brake noise.
Give the TA some time to get used to them. I'm sure in time, they'll come up with composite Buster Brown shoes made of sponges and cardboard that'll be nice and quiet just like they did for the redbirds and other older car classes. :)
R142s, R142As and R143s use essentially the same Tread Brake Units with one TBU per wheel and the brake shoe covering only the tread (flat part) of the wheel. Dynamic braking in these trainsets is not covering its part despite the 40 MPH limit and many shoes don't make it to the next inspection. Sure a bad 142 car is better than a Redbird...8 versus 16 shoes to change out...but it takes only one stubborn brake shoe key on an 142 to ruin your day and that is ma subject of another thread. CI Peter
thats kawaski for you.even through they made a hell of a product in the R142A.and R143.they have correct the brake sound.the sound is standard for the kawaski company.the R110A made the same sound at some point.
R142/R143MAN
BCO all of the cars Zman. The problem will go away :-)
The sound is when the brake pads kick in. Until then, I think it's regenetive braking. Only some trains with some T/Os it does that. It's loud but the stop isn't hard at all. Perhaps they're worn out during training with some T/Os.
What are you talking about, the 143s come to a drastic stop sometimes, alot harder than the older equipment on the line....
Gives you a headache after bout 10 minutes of being on the train. But i figure it has to do with the T/O and how much pressure they are putting to stop the train. Seems either harder to stop them or just reacting the way they would with the older equipment thinking it reacts the same way....
TA wanted 'new tech' with just one TBU per wheel to save money and time in inspection. Wabco has gone through three TBUs and two brake shoe compositions. I know R142 software has been revised many times to address the situation.....the ACMO didn't move up to 239th for better pizza....but to make a presence known to the vendors.
Just took my first ride on an R143 (8161-8168) yesterday afternoon. The brakes are not the only thing that makes these units almost indistinguishable from their IRT cousins. The ride is still jittery and noisy as h***. Yet I feel they were somewhat better built than the R142As for some reason (I don't have that image of them being as hapazardly bulit as the R142As).
It's a surprise to me that the way the brakes go on the Kawasakis they were not sidelined in the time frame and quantity like the R142s. IMHO, if there is another order for new cars for the rest of the BMT-IND, the MTA should open up the bidding process even more. There are other North American carmakers out there other than Bombardier and Kawasaki.
On the news on Tuesday was a short item about the possibility of turnstiles being installed on the Red Line subway. The reason given was to free up police officers from fare checking to "return them to the streets." It was mentioned that the compliance rate with POP fare control (and $250.00 fines) was 95%. That means one person in every 20 is a fare beater. This does not match my own observations of fare checks, which were that there was a much lower rate of persons without valid fares, more like one in 70 rather than one in 20.
Of course if the officers who were in the subway were returned to the streets, what happens to security in the subway? Under the present system, there are no full time station agents at the red line stations. If turnstiles are installed they will have to have someone there to watch them and allow handicapped people who cannot use a standard turnstile enter. This could not be implemented on the Blue Line because so many of the stations are located at street level with such narrow entry ways that turnstiles would not fit, and could be easily circumvented.
Of course putting in turnstiles is not all that will have to be done. L.A.'s monthly passes are simple sight passes without the coding used with MetroCards, so if they go to turnstiles they will have to upgrade the passes to be machine readable or have an employee on hand to look at the passes.
I personally believe the purpose of turnstiles is to introduce more sophisticated MetroCard like passes and debit cards. Some of the smaller transit agencies already have fare box readers that allow them to issue 31 day passes (rather than monthly passes), debit cards and machine readable transfers. LAMTA is behind the curve in developing these products.
Tom
"I personally believe the purpose of turnstiles is to introduce more sophisticated MetroCard like passes and debit cards. Some of the smaller transit agencies already have fare box readers that allow them to issue 31 day passes (rather than monthly passes), debit cards and machine readable transfers. LAMTA is behind the curve in developing these products."
I agree, and I think LAMTA is waking up to that realization. But that's a good thing.
Is it possible that the crime rate aboard Red Line is so low that the Sheriff's Department has concluded it wants to redeploy its deputies elsewhere?
>>> Is it possible that the crime rate aboard Red Line is so low that the Sheriff's Department has concluded it wants to redeploy its deputies elsewhere? <<<
I believe Red Line security and fare checking is done by the LAPD, since it is totally within the city limits. Blue and Green Line are done by the L.A. Sheriff. The LAPD is way under strength, about 1,000 officers short in a 9,000 member department. This is because of low morale, which has made other law enforcement agencies seem more attractive to both active LAPD officers and new recruits. With such a shortage I am sure that the LAPD leadership (we now have an interim chief, while looking for a new one, after refusing to give the former chief a second five year contract) and the city council which is not supportive of rapid transit, put a low priority on fare checking, and couldn't care less about the extra expense to LAMTA of having turnstiles.
I think they are making a mistake because the fare checking, like citations for minor traffic violations lets police officers run warrant checks on those they come into contact with who are minor law breakers, and thus may find people wanted for other crimes.
In my previous post I suggested this idea might be a way for LAMTA to introduce MetroCard like passes, but on second thought, I believe the idea originates as a trial balloon from politicians outside the LAMTA and is not something the LAMTA wants to do.
Tom
I think they are making a mistake because the fare checking, like citations for minor traffic violations lets police officers run warrant checks on those they come into contact with who are minor law breakers, and thus may find people wanted for other crimes.
That certainly was the case in New York. A significant percentage of the people stopped for turnstile-jumping were wanted for other, more serious offenses, or were carrying weapons.
If the Red Line is perceived to be unimportant, politically, LAMTA may want to take matters into its own hands (eg hiring and certifying its own officers to patrol the rail transit system).
RTD, prior to its reorganization, had its own Transit Police.
what in the hell would you do with 7th & metro ???
nobody seems to ahve an answer to that !!!
Maybe nothing should be done.
here is just one of 4 station entrancres to the red line subway 2
nowere @ ( we coined this phraise here on da' west coast )
now remember this is one of 4 to 5 just at this main trnasfer
station that would have to be totally rebuilt ....!! ...???
i would like to show you some of the mess at the union station whew!!
It may not be worth rebuilding.
Maybe transit police agents should be reintroduced and they should check for tickets and provide a visible law enforcement presence - and LAPD can let that duty go.
yes as long as they are not some 2 bit redneck types or some gestapo
types etc..Going on ""fishing expeditions"" looking to unleash thier
savage brutality on !! of cource enforce the law etc...
Sir, While I DO NOT favor adding turnstiles or any type of "barrier fare control" I am sure that the complexity of the 7th St transfer station pales in comparison to Union Square, Herald Square or Times Square stations. So it is POSSIBLE--that's what architects are for--just stupid. (Which IMHO is not enough to stop LA MTA)
the point is why then only the red line ?? why not all lines??
metrolink included ?? .............see my point sir ??
>>> Maybe transit police agents should be reintroduced and they should check for tickets and provide a visible law enforcement presence <<<
Not really a good idea. New York gave up its separate transit police force because of the inefficiency of having parallel police forces on transit and the rest of the city. Los Angeles has 400 square miles within the city limits and LAMTA buses go into neighboring areas also. When there were separate forces, a bus driver who sees a passenger carrying a gun, or an unruly passenger had to wait up to 40 minutes for a response by transit police. Once local police took over, the problem was dispatched to a 911 operator for the nearest police unit to respond.
The LAMTA could not have its own force just for the Red Line. It is only 17 miles long, and needs only two dedicated officers at a time in non rush hours, so the force would be so small that planning for training, vacations, illnesses etc. would be extremely inefficient, and response to disturbances would be dependant upon which station they were in at the time the call came. The LAPD now has the patrol of the Red Line in their budget. If that money were transferred to the LAMTA, it would be only natural for the supervisors in LAPD not to want their men responding to subway calls. They would respond in serious emergencies under a mutual aid pact, but a call for a drunk on a platform would be ignored to let the transit cops handle it.
Tom
I tend to agree with you; however you appear to discount the possibility that LAPD could assign a very low priority to drunk calls anyway, simply by redeploying officers.
Even if LAPD keeps Red Line responsibility, it could assign Red Line protection duty to a patrol car 4 miles away. If LAMTA objects, LAPD could say, "If you don't like that, hire your own."
>>> if LAPD keeps Red Line responsibility, it could assign Red Line protection duty to a patrol car 4 miles away. If LAMTA objects, LAPD could say, "If you don't like that, hire your own." <<<
But it wouldn't be LAMTA objecting, it would be citizens and their elected representatives. Former chief Parks lost his job in part because he did not believe he had the manpower to continue "community policing" in the low crime affluent areas to concentrate manpower in the high crime poor areas. When he ended the lead officer system, which provided a liaison with the communities, and refused to reinstate it when the affluent complained, the politically powerful went after his job.
Tom
You bring up an excellent point. And your reasoning would be quite valid in New York, Chicago, San Francisco and other places where the transit system does matter.
Does LAMTA ridership have enough clout?
>>> Does LAMTA ridership have enough clout? <<<
It is not just the ridership. Headlines of crime in the subways or on the buses would bring a severe public reaction from all, particularly if it was perceived that the police were not taking the crime seriously. Even those who do not use the transit system worry about the reputation of the city with tourists and business visitors.
Tom
his job was ended by a nut myor here who will be remembered for his
""f"" up big time !! the litle son named hann........what a nut!!
still do not see how this turnstille idea would work at 7th & metro..
>>> what in the hell would you do with 7th & metro ??? <<<
That would not be difficult. There is plenty of floor space on the Blue Line level, so fences could be erected with turnstiles leading to the stairs and elevators to the Red Line. Physically it would not be a problem, but there would have to be supervision to allow handicapped entrance. It would not be a good idea.
Tom
DUMB, and regressive. POP is indeed workng well whether in LA, SF, Sacto, SJ, PDX etc. And indeed the 5% figure does not agree with my own experiences. Hiring station agents and buying all the hardware for barrier fare control is IMHO a huge waste. Having SOME personnel in each station--random fare checkers, agents aiding riders having trouble with balky fare machines is useful. Armed LAPD a waste.
>>> Armed LAPD a waste. <<<
With a POP system you need sworn law enforcement personnel to enforce the fare policy. They need to be able to arrest anyone without proof of fare payment, and need the immunities from false arrest and the right to use force given to peace officers. Rent a cops do not have the training or authority to properly do the job. Unfortunately it is not a job most officers want; kind of like watching a school crossing to see if any motorists speed or fail to properly stop for a crossing guard.
Here in California the training to become a peace officer is so stringent that former LAPD police chief Willie Williams (from Philadelphia) was never able to pass the test and had to apply for a civilian CCW permit in order to carry a gun on the job.
Tom
here in Northern CA, San Jose and SF use fare checkers who are NOT armed, but like unto parking ticket officers they are legally able to writes summonses. AFAIK VTA is not planning to change to peace officers. SF DID use SFPD officers when the system was introduced, but has since gire specific 'fare checkers' (at much lower salaries I hope). Indeed checking on MUNI is quite random, butMUNI seems content with the present system.
>>> here in Northern CA, San Jose and SF use fare checkers who are NOT armed, but like unto parking ticket officers they are legally able to writes summonses. <<<
I suppose that is what will eventually happen here too. The cops do not like the work, since they consider it on a par with writing parking tickets. Presently the policy is to take into custody anyone who does not have proof of fare payment and also does not have identification sufficient to allow the officers to believe writing a summons will suffice to bring him to court. That is similar to what happens with a traffic stop if the driver has no ID. Also they do a warrant check on fare beaters and take into custody anyone with an outstanding warrant.
I doubt that unarmed fare checkers would be able to make arrests in those situations.
>>> Indeed checking on MUNI is quite random, butMUNI seems content with the present system <<<
I wonder if the MUNI is getting such a big subsidy that they don't care about fares. They have such a liberal transfer policy, and I have never even seen any driver check the expiration time on a transfer. Their on board fare checking is so random that I have never seen it on an LRV.
Tom
where did this SHORT article appear ???...........lol ...!!
did they say how they were going to install turnstiles in the main
7th /7 metro station or the union station ??????
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???????????????? 4 to 5 stairways there to the
red line subway 2 nowhere .....picture below ....
do you have a LINK to this anywhere ?? what NUT came up with dis'
dumb assed idea folks ?? there are no nys style transcards here !!!
LOL !!!!!!!!!
where did this SHORT article appear ???...........lol ...!!
did they say how they were going to install turnstiles in the main
7th /7 metro station or the union station ??????
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???????????????? 4 to 5 stairways there to the
red line subway 2 nowhere .....picture below ....
do you have a LINK to this anywhere ?? what NUT came up with dis'
dumb assed idea folks ?? there are no nyC style transcards here !!!
LOL !!!!!!!!!
The report was in the LA TIMES and said the idea was being tossed around at MTA HQ. As to logistics, just because it will inconvenience riders, slow down usage and generally degrade the system is no impediment to stupid bureaucrats.
I do appreciate the information on dat' however it will prove to be
a big problem at the 7th & Metro Station with at least 4 + lower
transfer from the upper Long Beach Blue Line end of the line
upstairs which is impossible to install fare gates etc.....
What a looney idea that has no possibility to work at all !! !
next time you are in los angeles check out & 7 Th & Metro with your
own eyes & you can see why this cannot be done !!!
What's the deal with the R shuttle to 95th street. Are those jobs from CI, or Jamaica? It seems like a helluva long deadhead to get there. Howzabout the equipment...does the OPTO set run from CI or Jamaica, or does it sit on F3-4 at 95th?
Thanks
For Some odd reason, while I do not know exactly, but it seems to make sense to send trains from 36 Street yard to run the R shuttle, way less dead head then from Coney Island, and defintly from Jamaica.
More like they take a train cut it in station and there are your two shuttles.
Most of the Put ins on the south end of the line come from layup and mainline tracks not 36st yard
The R shuttle crews report for duty at 95th Street. There isn't any special plan for shuttle service, all they do is take a regular 8 car R train and cut it in half. Those two 4 car sets make up shuttle service for the night. When shuttle service ends, they're added back up again.
So trains are still occaisionally "cut" on the road. It's not prohibited, but I can't think of any other situation where that happens -so I guess its unusual...
Cool.
It also happens on the midnight W at Stillwell, where 2 eight car trains are cut for four OPTO shuttles.
The road crews do the cut, right?
Now there you got me. I don't work PMs or Midnights, so I'm not sure. I do know that on Sunday mornings, the Road T/O bringing in the second set of four cars makes the add with a switchman on the first set of four (and I only know this because the train they put together is the one I take out on my first trip).
In the NEw Capital Plan it discusses the the issue of subway storage, and that it is at at a chronic state as read here:
"NYC Transit’s B division faces chronic capacity issues related to car maintenance and storage. Currently, B division demand for subway car storage exceeds secure yard capacity. Also, only six maintenance shops support the B division’s 3,233 cars, which are distributed unevenly among them. For example, the Jamaica shop has more than 1,000 cars. In addition, NYC Transit’s lack of adequate work train storage and staging facilities in Queens and within close proximity of Manhattan often cause delays to scheduled service. The opening of the Queens Boulevard Line Connector and resumption of full service over the Manhattan Bridge will significantly increase the agency’s dependence on mainline storage of trains and strain the capacity of the Jamaica and Coney Island maintenance shops. NYC Transit hopes to address these issues through a phased development of a new yard. Phase 1 is budgeted at $105 million, and the remainder of the development will occur after 2004." (Metropolitan Transit Authority"
It seems that if a New Subway Yard is Built, it will be built near the Sunnydale Train Facility. It sounds like it will be a massive yard too and probably the most advanced train yard in the system. It looks like it's main purpose it to remove congestion off the Jamaica Yard and C.I yard and add capacity for the New 600+ cars to come to the NYC subway system with in the next 10 years.
The plan for the past 15 years has always been to build a large storage facility on the north side of Sunnyside yard. Some of the "wish-list" features could be:
[ ] 70+ storage tracks for more than 1,000 cars
[ ] A service facility for work equipment (none currently in Queens
[ ] A loop for the #7 line to turn cars (instead of the Coney island loop).
To which lines would it connect? The 7 seems obvious, but how would it connect to the IND?
Has to connect to Division B since it's to be a Division B Yard.
If I understand the plans correctly it will come into Sunnyside in the same structure (but not the same tracks) as the LIRR East Side Access line, so I suppose the main access would be via the 63rd St. tunnel. But I'm only guessing.
IIRC, turnouts along the 63rd. St. connector have been built in anticipation of this facility being constructed.
Are there any track maps or any other things that describe this yard, capacity, etc?
The only active 'new build' contract I found on the MTA site is CQ028, to construct a tunnel from Northern Blvd to 'an existing yard' (it mentions Amtrak and NY&A, so Sunnyside is assumed). The project includes underpinning existing NYCT structures. It's listed under the East Side Access code. http://www.mta.info/mta/eye-esa.htm#CQ028
-Hank
The yard they referred to is indeed Sunnyside Yard. Here's something to look for if you ever ride a Penn Station bound LIRR train....on the northside of the ROW, just east of the 39th Street overpass, there are 2 markers (signs) posted, one saying "East Side Access Tunnel A" and another one saying "East Side Access Tunnel B". Look for them whenever you next ride a Penn Station bound train, right on the northside (on Penn bound trains it's the trains onside, or engineer cab side) of the right of way. It doesn't have anything to do with a new yard, it's where the ground breaking for the tunnel connection to the lower level 63rd Street tunnels will be and where the tunnel ROW will go.
Well they are construction the loop currently at Corona Yard now, so thats 1 thing down. The other 2 seem to be ready to begin shortly within 2 years.
Corona Yard has no maintenance facilities at all?
Would that include a garbage facility? That would save tons of overtime on the pickups.
How much does CI yard hold?
I agree, the Sunnyside facility would be great. In fact, the 63rd street tunnel, has bellmouths just before joining up with the Queens Blvd line, that could lead to the Sunnyside yard.
true but those bellmouths your talking about was built for the future 2nd Ave subway.
not at the Queens end.
but just before Lexington Av-63rd St yes
pass by the Hillside facility stop and they have been seen. the only ones i have noticed were #7000-#7001. I saw at least 6 more. I knmow they are not in service but cant wait until they are. they look really sharp.
Where exactly is this? Which route and side of train?
You pass by the HMF, which is on "the Main Line" [Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma Branches] just after the Babylon line diverges from the rest of the tracks over it's bridge.
Do you mean just east of Hicksville?
Just E/O Jamaica.
No, as Sarge just said e/o Jamaica. You are thinking of the split at Divide Tower where the main line diverges between the Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma Branches.
Nope....just east of Jamaica.....you're thinking of the Port Jeff/Ronkonkoma split, and that is east of Hicksville.
OK, I went out that way today, saw Hillside, but must have missed the M-7's because I didn't see them.
Did you ride during the rush hour? Better chance to see 'em with all the M-1s and 3s in service and out of the way.
they wont be in serice for A couple months.you might see them in the fall.
R142/R143MAN
Are you kidding?? The M-7 looks crappy. Looks like nothing more than an 85' subway car. Would be somewhat improved if the get rid of the pantograph gates. Makes it look too subway-like.
What hell you been drinking?? Those M-7's look great and dosen't look nothing like the other LIRR fleet.
those Sh*ts are of the meat rack.its about time for a change
And where yah Railfan Window?
Get used to the pantograph gates. They are there for ADA complaince: nobody wants to see a blind person fall in between the cars when attempting to board.
Are you kidding?? The M-7 looks crappy. Looks like nothing more than an 85' subway car. Would be somewhat improved if they get rid of the pantograph gates. Makes it look too subway-like.
How often do brake pads need to be replaced on subway trains? (And railroads if anyone knows)
Do trains need a variety of fluids to keep it running? (i.e. motor oil, coolant...)
How frequent are car inspections?
Can of Worms!!! Inspections are every two months or 10K miles or so.
Brake SHOES are checked during every inspection and good shoes which have a thin end are even replaced on Redbirds as there is a question of if and when the next SM will come. Couplings, brake adjusters and tripcock valves are greased, pneumatic valves are cleaned and lubricated, the air compressor is checked for lubrication oil level and has the air filter replaced, the battery electrolyte levels are checked and the propulsion motor gearboxes are checked for metallic debris and fluid level. Electrical contacts and relays are inspected and tested, motor and braking controls are inspected and tested...and all DC motors (AC compressor, air compressor, two blower motors) have their brushes and commutators inspected.
A major number of brakeshoes replaced means a failure of dynamic braking or a scummy schlub who let things go on the last inspection.
WE are CED, the Heart of TA, WE MAKE TRAINS GO! CI Peter
Doobie doobie doo.
Woo-hoo-you!
I've been seeing alot of posts by an "express" indivudual. They seem like they've been posted for the sake of being posted. The indivudual hangs around on the board quite often. Now this dude seems to be too. Uhhh... multiple personalities?
Which thread?
Lay off the crack pipe.
Probably not but perhaps you should be.
yer not the first person to say that
I've been meaning to ask this somewhat stupid question for awhile. While riding the A line in Brooklyn, there are signs on the express track pillars that say LU on them. What does that mean?
They were ex-London Underground pillars that got shipped during WWII for rehabiliataion of the A line. That's why they still have LU markings on them
Are you drunk or something?
- Lyle Goldman
no
The LU doesn't have pillars they are YERKES TUBES. Piffle!
wayne
On the District Line too?
LU = Lay-up.
You'll see a blue sign with white letters that may say "LU 4". This is where lay-up #4 would stop and park for the evening/weekend. Further down will be signs that say LU 1,2,3 or farther back 5,6,7.....
These lay-up points are only used for certain cold weather (LOL) plans which require trains to be lay-ed up under cover (aka snowbirds). Some LU signs have been replaced by yellow signs with black lettering that may say "Snowbird lay-up #4" (3 track on the F line between 7th Av & Church Av is one of these areas where the signs have been replaced).
I wonder why I've only seen them on the A express tracks in Brooklyn. I've seen trains get laid up on the Broadway express tracks (when the Manny B H tracks were closed), and on Queens Blvd. But the only place I saw the LU signs was on the Fulton express. Well thanks for the explanation!
Just the thought of snow is so welcome in today's blazin heat. Hit near 100 here in the hotlands of LI again.
I remember seeing trains laid up on the Broadway express tracks on certain weekends in the late 60s. Must have been a cold weather plan. We'd transfer from the Canarsie at Union Square to the Broadway line, and I'd look down the n/b express track and see R-1/9s sound asleep signed up for EE service. Then an N would pull in on the local track and make local stops. It was so depressing. Get this: I also remember seeing trains laid up only on the n/b express track while the s/b express track was clear and in use by N trains. That made me really mad.
I wonder what they do in events of very heavy rain. If many tunnels are flooded, I guess yards are the best place to lay-up, but some yards (like Coney Island) are low-lying and could flood in a bad storm.
Qtrain, do U really railfan 24-7 like some people on this board suggest? How do you finance yourself?
It's not a scarcastic Q. If I can do the same, I might do it...
AEM7
Qtrain, do U really railfan 24-7 like some people on this board suggest? How do you finance yourself?
Sure he does. And all those of us who actually work for a living finance him - it's called welfare.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I believe its really called SSI. Bottom line is that we still pay for his rail-fanning. I really don't mind that, however. I'm happier knowing that John can rail-fan as often as he wants on my money. If he didn't get that money, the government might actually waste it on some poor Appelachian family who need food or medicine.
... or the 2nd ave el.
Although, I didnt think you can survive AND railfan on just the welfare money. Surely railfanning is quite expensive, with all his digital equipment and everything. Maybe I should go on welfare. Or maybe I should shoot a few Canadians and get thrown in jail or deported.
Surely railfanning is quite expensive, with all his digital equipment and everything.
I don't think he has digital equipment and everything.
Railfanning is very cheap, you don't have to take photographs in order to be a railfan, and the subway and Long Island Bus are dirt cheap ($1.50 a ride, $4 for the whole day).
If I railfanned 24/7, how would I sleep, how would I eat, shower,etc!!!
When you sleep, you dream of subway trains... and how to route them, When you shower you contemplate subway trains, and what you would doo if the yards or tunnels flood. When you..... Aw Skip it!
: )
Logical Unit?
Load Utility?
Someone earlier pointed out the correct meaning, LU stands for Lay-Up.
That's old Honeywell speak!
Haven't heard that since S&S days (1982-84)
wayne
Wayne,
I use big iron every day, SNA 3270. What is your physical address? LU Number??
Opps, I can't it the mainframe any more, we were ordered to refer to it as the Enterprise Server >G<.
Our DBA goes around with a button "VM, The Original LAN".
That's what it was, the TDS system running under Honeywell GCOS 3.x. What a pig! No tape drives, just 7 magnum disk drives (250MB, EACH pack weighing in at a portly 28 lbs), two printers, console, and yes, (remember this?) the CARD READER and PUNCH! We had terminals all over the office and in the shop too.
S&S was a few blocks off the Bedford Avenue station on the "L" line. (just to keep it on topic).
wayne
Just read on Amtrak website, they have just let a contract to build 5 demonstration induction-driven locos from ASEA which will be dubbed AEM-10. These locos will run on freight railroads without pantographs but they will get their power from inductor loops that are installed ever 60-80 miles along the ROW. They will develope 10,000hp. The electromagentic radiation around the inductor loops are reportedly a problem but at the Transportation Technology Center Inc in Pubelo Colorado they are working on it and they have a prototype which only causes cancer in Pandas.
That would be soo coool to see an AEM-10 on the Lake Shre Ltd, although the AEM10 will be phased in starting with the Capitol Ltd, then the Santa Fe Ltd.
AEM7
"be soo coool to see an AEM-10 on the Lake Shre Ltd, "
This is correct they are going to convert all of those jerkwater towns into jerkinductance towns.
Hey! I gotta BRIDGE for sale, left over from the construction of the Mongolia Subway.
Yes, but how fast would they be able to go? A 10,000-horsepower locomotive. I like the sound of that!
In the 1830s, Cyrus P. Smith proposed unifying New York and Brooklyn (EVIL, EVIL MAN) not only politically, but geographically! He proposed filling in the East River.
I'm not as think as you high I am?
How will he fill up the E. River?
It would take lots and lots of mob hits.
Due to increased demand, the mafia is now hiring. Inquire within.
Well I was just commenting because the saying sounded weird. I thought it usually went "I'm not as high as you think I am" but I guess not this time.
Ever seen those blurry shirts that say "I'm not as think as you drunk I am?"
How will he fill it up?
Somehow I doubt he will. He made his proposal about 170 years ago. Do you think he's still around to carry it out?
Most of what is now Boston was once water.
Yes. There are pumps that have to keep pumping to prevent certain building from falling sideways. There are $500,000 condos sitting on 1890s wooden stumps drilled into the mud which, should the stumps rot away... would fall over... there's a lot of structural problems in the Back Bay. There's also a certain university which would crumble should an earthquake ever occur. Of course, there are no fault lines there, so we should be okay for a couple centuries.
Of course, modern technology can deal with all that... but isn't it cheaper just to build outwards?
AEM7
Of course, there are no fault lines there, so we should be okay for a couple centuries.
The problem with 1000-year earthquakes is that nobody knows when 1000 years after the last earthquake is. This is especially a problem in the new world.
A 1000 earthquake, flood, etc. just means there is a 1/1000 chance of it happening in any year. Natural events don't keep track of time. Statisticans and geologists can figure out how otfen a partucular sized event will happen without knowing when the last one occured.
Earthquakes do keep track of time. The tension along the fault builds up over time. The longer the time between earthquakes, the stronger it will be. Some faults build up pressure faster than others.
He proposed filling in the East River.
What!?! Isn't that what Staten Island's for?
>>>I'm not as think as you high I am!
If you said those words in that orderr, I would think u MUST be high! ROFLMAO J/k...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Coolie"
I know I have to be able to pick a job in order to transfer from the A division to the B divsion. So, I was wondering if any of you new T/O's who came in "off the street" like I did, have been able to pick a job in the B division yet? Here in the A division, only a handful have been able to pick a job thus far, and they were all hired about one year before I was.
I like the A division, but my feeling is that when I have to pick a job, it's going to be a terrible job, so I'd rather have one that's closer to home. Plus, I figure a lousy job in the B division is still better than 2 trips on the 2, or 3 trips on the 4 (including a local trip to New Lots). One night, I had three trips on the 4 line, and on my last trip, I went to New Lots. That was a rough day.
It's too early to answer your question yet Luch. The B division pick is in progress now and they're only up to about file # 1900.
One of my classmates pick a Saturday job on the No.4 Line with 2 trips to Utica and the last to New Lots last pick. That not a good way to do 10HRS.
Most Train crews on the A Div work on the No.1/2 Lines for the first pick and more then likely late PM's.
You're right, that's a rough way to work 10hrs. His paycheck will be fat, but it's still a very long day.
No no off the street people will pick this pick unless there are MANY more retirements. In fact a few people that picked last pick may lose their spots if no one retires. Even with all the added jobs there were more than enough A to B transfers to move people back.
This pick I moved up two days over the last pick. I pick on the 6th Friday last pick at about 12:00pm. This pick I pick on the 6th Thursday at 9:30am. I know this only looks like 1 day, but you have to figure that there was no pick on July 4th, so that make one less day to pick pushing everyone one day back. My first pick job for the B division was last pick, if you call it a pick. I ended up in the Work Train the hole pick. The only thing I pick was one of two slots left on the Extra List(Every thing in W/T is E-List). The day off were the same that it. I Hated every last day out there. Not knowing what your working untill 12:00noon for that day. 21:59 reports most night. It Sucked big time.
Robert
Weren't there 2 holidays last pick?
We actually count jobs and the call sheets so unless people back out of their transfers or retire our numbers are fairly good.
You did not have to pick work trains. Now you may have gotten stuck with G OPTO but w/t XL jobs for the most part were not the last picked. They should be in the summer (I assume the Jr. guy is on the moron end)!
21:59? Did not like the early clears? The Max night differential?
DONT DO IT B DIVISION IS MISREABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!I came to the B last pick and I hate it.There Seems to be A GOOD OLD BOY attitude over in the b. Equippment is slightly Better But supervision is on crack, Beeen in the B 2 months now and have been verbably reinstructed twice.Best part They want to hear the clicks ,DONT WRAP IT LOL ,Dont come into the staion wrapped HAHAHAHA.
The supervision is very uneven. Last week on the E where I operate regularly I had 7 TSS's ride me and instruction from a deputy and a Supt. On the L where this was my second L job ever no one rode me or at least was in my car.
The N is cool on PM's in fact with 3 exceptions the Brooklyn TSS's are cool and helpful. In Train Dude land all but one TD and TSS are excellent but those two are equally wretched as the others are good.
As for the North there is a method to their madnees.
I would like to operate the whole system, but because of those 3 trip 4 (and 6) jobs and 2 trip 1 and 2, I'll pass on the A div. I used to complain when I got the 2 trip A or F all the time. Now it's the 6 trip G job left by someone who has gone off into the union. At least all of these B. Div. North and Queens jobs are fairly close. The A did. is all far away. (except for Livonia, and even that would not be the easiest to reach).
Last pick, I missed it by one day. It seems more jobs will be added by the new switching jobs at Kings Hwy F. But some in the yards have been cut or restricted. You're way below me, and I may or may not make it, so you definitely won't be able to pick over here this time.
3 trips on the 6 line is a piece of cake. It goes by real fast. 3 trips on the 4 line is a different story. Especially if one of those trips is to New Lots.
2 trips on the 2 is not my favorite. When the 1 goes back to normal, I can see myself liking it.
Just keep my off the 7 line. Those redbirds are terrible.
So Eric, how would you rate B division management? I know you don't have anything to compare it to, since you've yet to work the A division, but are they really that bad over there?
I loved the No.1 Line when it was 3 trips to the Ferry. It goes faster then the No.6. As far as B Div management we have them now on the A Div. Just look at the No.1,2 Lines. The Line Supt on the No.1 just switched over from J/M/Z lines and No.2 Line Supt came from the A Line. Also the new District Gen. Supt of Bway Dist.1 came over from Queens District 5.
Not to mention some of the feared B division TSS's who have made their way to the A division.
Here's an excellent example. I won't mention names, but a well-known TSS on the _ line told a C/R to confront a man for bringing a pit bull on a train, without a leash no less. Now, you have to figure that anyone who would do something like this, is confrontational and should be dealt with by the police.
But the TSS felt otherwise. He asked the C/R such questions as, "How did he get on your train with a pitbull with no leash"?, and "Don't you know you're supposed to confront people who bring animals on the train"?
When the C/R got to (terminal), he made supervision aware of the problem, just in case the TSS ever decided to charge the C/R.
There is also a TSS on the _ line who loves to hide in stations, and clock trains with his speed gun. In this case, it's my belief that the Line Superintendent forces the TSS to do so.
That's why I consider myself lucky to be on the extra list. I'm not around any one TSS for any length of time, which allows me to fly, or in this case, operate under the radar screen.
Here's a dumb question. If that pit bull as on car nine, would that TSS expect me to key out, lock up the cab and walk back there to confront the customer while I screw up the entire railroad doing so? I'm just wondering what kind of pea-sized brains are at play here.
It'd be one thing to radio for a cop, I'd be rather miffed (as would the "customers") if I had to gum up the railroad to go fight a pit bull. Or maybe it's just me. :)
"feared B division TSS's"
Feared TSS's??????? No one but God earns my fear. As long as you do what you are supposed to do, you need not worry about no TSS or anyone. I do the job the way it's supposed to be done, all while putting my all into getting the most enjoyment out of my career.
A TSS is gonna be a TSS, if the guy is good he's good, if the guy is a jerk, he's gonna be a jerk. There is nothing much you can do about it, just do what you're supposed to do the right way and they'll stay clear of you.
I been think about going to the B Div but I now decided I'm staying in the A Div. I have already gotten a taste of B Div. and don't like it.
At least two trains of R-143s on the L (8141+ and 8161+). At least two trains of R-32s on the F.
I also had a nice ride on the M Shuttle with a fellow SubTalker. Thanks for the ride!
On June 9; they were held and questioned for four hours and released without charge. They seek compensation. Story in Wednesday's Inquirer.
Since it was the Philly police, i'm surprised they didn't call the SWAT team on them and beat the photographer to death in front of news cameras. Or drop a bomb onto the bridge to try to scare them away :)
didn't the philly PD drop a bomb on some anarchists house in the 80's, causing an entire row of homes to go up in flames?
in the new war on terrorism, owning a camera is a crime - so all of you on this board that own cameras - you certainly better hide them, or maybe even turn them into the local police station, maybe witha statement signing away your civil rights as well.
think it can't happen here? dan quayle was VP for pete's sake! anything is possible!
Yes, that was the Philly PD. Back in 1985, the MOVE group had a house on Osage Avenue near 62nd in West Philly. They were a black power anarchist group, I think. The Philly PD decided to scare them out by dropping a bomb onto the house, where i think 10 or 11 people died, and the fire spread to over 60 homes. It made mayor W. Wilson Goode look really really bad, and was a real disgrace to the city.
From CNN--
"MOVE's neighbors complained that members constantly harassed passersby, that the stench of human and animal feces was overwhelming the neighborhood, and that MOVE members had been seen with weapons.
"Police officers arrived at the MOVE home at 6221 Osage Avenue in West Philadelphia on the morning of May 13, 1985 to serve arrest warrants on four MOVE members, and were met with gunfire, authorities said. Police fired back, touching off a 90-minute gun battle.
"Later that day, police dropped the bomb on the MOVE row house from a state police helicopter. The bomb missed its target -- a fortified bunker on the roof -- and started a fire that burned an entire city block."
Yes, the police and their mayor screwed up mightily with M.O.V.E. and part of that screw-up was that they kept hands off for too long, so that by the time it became a confrontation, it was out of control.
The situation was not nearly so simple as you imply.
Correct, Paul. The MOVE situation was the predecssor to the WACO tragedy...similar situations that -- because earlier action wasn't taken -- things turned drastic in the end (loss of life).
Those who died deserved what they got. If you openly defy law enforcement with deadly weapons then the consequinces are completely of your own doing. I hope that in the future that law enforcement deals quickly and severely with these scum. Once all innoscent people are out of the line of fire the machine guns should open up and eliminate the threat, be it a hi-speed vehicle or a compound full of insane cultists. It'll be a great taxpayer savings in not only officer's time and resources, but also in court and jail fees.
Those who died deserved what they got.
Civilized countries have a justice system with judges and lawyers who decide whether the criminal is to be executed. One mentally deranged police commissioner is not entitled to convice, sentence, and execute on his own.
Watch yourself on today's SEPTA trip: you look more like a potential terrorist than I do.
Civilized countries have a justice system with judges and lawyers who decide whether the criminal is to be executed.
I intended to add "and juries".
Ajustice system with lawyeres and juries and jails is nice, and if the perps want to live long enough to enjoy these benefits, thay can put down their weapons and come out with their hands up.
If law enforcement has to go in after them, then enforcement must take what ever steps are necessary to protect themselves and bystanders. Armed persons shooting must be taken out at once.
NO DON'T BOMB THE NEIGHTBORHOOD, What you be thinking, boy!
Unfortunately, it can go too far. Enforcement professionals need to be very very professional, well trained, and well disciplined. Actions need to be well thought out.
Stopping folk for taking pictures (which *is* where this tread started) is not a well thought out action. Since we live in a free country, and since a photograph of a refinery complex set against a sunset if a very artistic and poignent statement protected by the first amendment, the police have no right to interfere.
We are a public land, and anything that can be seen by the public, standing in a public place is free to be photographed. It does not matter if the person is an artist, a hobbiest, a journalist, or a terrorist: the act of photography is not a terrorist act, nor is it an illegal act. It is instead a protected act. A camera is not going to blow up a refineary... lax security will.
Sure a terrorist *could* use a photograph to discover weakness in a defence perimiter, or a site for the placement of a weapon, but to prohibit all photography on those grounds is like using a bomb to take out a few cockroaches. And just about as effective too.
Elias
i couldn't have said it better....
Totally innocent photography of certain things has been banned in wartime and even after. Photography of the Brooklyn Navy Yard was prohibited for at least a decade after WWII ended.
Then there ought to be published notices and signs in the area warning of same.
HOWEVER... given today's photography (high quality... telephot lenses etc. etc. they are just fooling themselves. There must be thousands of places where one could make high quality clandestine photographs of any target.
They require protection for a target, then go and provide security, but forget about hiding it. *THAT* is NOT security. That is fooling yourself.
Elias
Hire a satellite. It goes for $400 for custom pic that is ordered and exactly what you want.
Totally innocent photography of certain things has been banned in wartime and even after. Photography of the Brooklyn Navy Yard was prohibited for at least a decade after WWII ended.
I was in the Navy.... during the Viet Nam War...
And I took pictures in every Naval Base, on every Ship, and in every port that I went to. There were no restrictions!
Well it *was* different from WWII, the VC did not have spies under every tea leaf such as the Germans or the Japanese did. While alQuadea might have such spies (i'd be surprized if they did not!) such restrictions would not apply to them anyway... Which is to say such restrictions would not stop or be able to stop them.
Security will stop them Paranoia will not. Security *would* have stopped the hijackers regardless of what pictures they may have taken!
Elias
with the military i would get permission etc... & i both understand
& respect thier position on what you can photograph etc...
however what we should all do
& A HUGE NUMEBER OF US DO THIS TOGETHER ANT THE SAME TIME ....
is show up at that location in philly
with our cameras do the all american thing REBEL !! shoot like MAD!!
demand with asign the we all "B" arrested then chill out and go
get some SEPTA transit photos !!! .............yea !!!
Hell lets ROCK THE G.D. BOAT HERE BIG TIME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yooooooooooooooo..............................
A HUGE NUMEBER OF US DO THIS TOGETHER ANT THE SAME TIME .... is show up at that location in philly with our cameras do the all american thing REBEL !! shoot like MAD!!
With all due respect, Salaam, and I do respect both that you have good intentions and are a marvelous photographer, I wouldn't do that. We really need to choose our battles.
While I have your eye (I assume) I'll give you a suggestion I think might be more worth pursuing. Back in the '60s when I was in transit reporting and publishing, it was suggested to me that I should have gotten a Press Pass from the NYPD, which I probably could have gotten with not too much work, given what I did. I never bothered because I had pretty much open access anyway and, in the cases where I really could expect to be challenged (such as in Staten Island) I got my permissions directly from the operating agency.
Maybe someone like you, in planning a trip to a system like New York, should look into getting a Press Pass for the duration. You would have to be willing to clearly identify who you are and your need and your connection to publication. A press pass would not only CYA in normal situations, but would give you photo access in some situations where others would be barred.
Just a thought... :)
Yea thankz ....i do have my los angeles MTA vest and i.d.
guess that will pass for being left alone !!
they did not mess with me too much last time i was in nyc & the
commuter railroads as well, they were nice to me and left me alone
to do my work wich was tiring enough !!!.............lol !
Totally innocent photography of certain things has been banned in wartime and even after. Photography of the Brooklyn Navy Yard was prohibited for at least a decade after WWII ended.
I was in the Navy.... during the Viet Nam War...
Ah-HA! Pulling rank on me, huh? :-)
I was in the Army (ours).... during the Viet Nam War...
And I took pictures in every Naval Base, on every Ship, and in every port that I went to. There were no restrictions!
First, note I said "a decade after WWII." You were probably in the service a good decade after that.
Second, their judgment obviously was that there was no harm, considering everything, in having a service member taking pictures around naval installations.
Well it *was* different from WWII, the VC did not have spies under every tea leaf such as the Germans or the Japanese did. While alQuadea might have such spies (i'd be surprized if they did not!) such restrictions would not apply to them anyway... Which is to say such restrictions would not stop or be able to stop them.
We obviously agree, the current situation is much more analagous to WWII than it is to Vietnam.
How many SubTalkers do you think have any clear memory of a conventional war (Vietnam)? How many do you think have memory of a conventional war (WWII) in which there were enormous home front restrictions? I sure don't remember the latter. Hell, we've got a war going without even a draft. I believe this disconnect colors a lot of the opinions here.
US Governments so called "War" is simply "military activity". Also America has to use up it's wepons somehow. Remember the George Bush senior is on the Board of Directors of the "Carlyle Group" [google it] a major, extremly powerful, investment group that focuses on companies that provide government services, especially defense contractors. For a article about them goto theis site.
So what do you figure? Bush and the Mossad attacked WTC so we would have an excuse to use weapons?
The following is my idea, belive it if you want, but I'am not forcing it on you.
They want some money in return for investing in defense companies. They (Pentagon/CIA/FBI(less likely)) got some radicals who thought that they (Pentagon/CIA/FBI(less likely)) were other radicals just like them ("Would you like to do something patriotic and honorable for your people [Arabs/Palestine]?"). And everything else is history. Also remember that the Taliban didn't allow any major oil drilling in Afghanistan. The Soviets did do some tests there in 1979 or 1977 and proved there was a substantial amount of oil in Afghanistan. The soviets never set up any drills because they had other place with more oil in easier places to drill (Kazakhstan, e.g.) Now with a new "cooperative with the western world" government in place they will start drilling 2-5 years from now for oil.
Then that must mean that it is illegal to look (with your eyes) at buildings. Someone have a hot metal rod? Talk about civil libirites.
It is not the job of police to risk their lives and the lives of others to peacibly disarm gun wielding maniacs. If you disregard commands to disarm yourself and surrender then you are responsible for your own fate. When police are empowered to shoot someone just because that person looks like they MIGHT have pulled a gun, it makes little sence not to alow them to people who are running around pointing and discharging an actual weapon at people.
Those who died deserved what they got.
Civilized countries have a justice system with judges and lawyers who decide whether the criminal is to be executed. One mentally deranged police commissioner is not entitled to convice, sentence, and execute on his own
Perhaps we should not ignore the point that the standoff which ended with the bomb began when police attempted to serve the M.O.V.E. people with warrants so that the situation could be dealt with by "a justice system with judges and lawyers" and they were answered with gunfire.
Please don't distort this to imply that I'm excusing the bomb, but lots not lose sight of the facts and the moral responsibility of the M.O.V.E. people, who were the provocateurs.
Uh, Mr. Jersey Mike: so far as I know the MOVE group never USED their weapons on anyone. Merely owning weapons should not be AUTOMATICALLY a precursor for law enforcement to drop bombs on your home w/o first confirming that you intend to use them for illegal acts...
By your standards alot of folks would be bombed out of their homes by the tens of thousands...glad your not in a position of power...
The Police ARE NOT GOD, They would carry a lot more respect if they were found guilty once in a while. Police are disciplined rather severly within their departments for routine misconduct and accountability is actually quite strict, but in major incidents of unjustifiable use of force most police of all ranks circle the wagons and in many cases the prosecutors are either sympathetic whih the police or are reminded that the police could easily make a prosecutors' life hell by screwing with just a few of that prosecutors' other cases. Courts represent the public, they are not part of the BROTHERHOOD and worse, the media reports the proceedings to the public. A fair number of cops can't tolerate this. If rogue police "Got the Max" in court and it stuck, it would go a long way toward building respect for a job which requires a strong body, a sharp mind, great courage, and PERSONAL INTEGRITY, Those who are lacking, aren't really part of the brotherhood after all. But those who meet the standards are truly NEW YORK'S FINEST.
Where in the post you responded to did I say the police were God?
Hear Hear!
Where in the post you responded to did I say the police were God?
They can't be God.... we got separation of church and state.
Anyway my read was that he wasn't responding to what was said, rather than adding his own thoughts to the mix.
Elias
Well said. A very good example is the current mess with Charles Schawrez and the Abner Louima case. Many of the usual "police can do no wrong" types were crying for this "innocent man". When he gets his re-trial, he will be found innocent! Yet he declined to take the stand this time (I thought he was so eager to prove his innocence?) and Thomas Wiese, the "fellow officer" who was to exonerate him had a change of heart; didn't want to face a perjury rap.
Interesting, oh well he's heading back to the big house!
I won't even get into the mob and the 44 shots into Amado Dialo! But hey, those damn wallets can be dangerous, even if you are four burly police officers with bullet proof vests and the one lone man you are confronting has his hand up! Can't take any chances and only fire a few shoots each, need to empty the magazine.
and how yould you feel if your block was burned to a crisp because of bad police tactics?
there's always a better way.
How do you think I would feel? How do you think I feel about those poor neighbors who lost their homes, their possessions and even their pets (the police told them they didn't have to bother evacuating their pets--it was OK)?
It was a horrifying blunder but, as I said, it had more history to it than was indicated in other posts, so, when we're pointing figures of moral responsibility, lets look at the larger picture. Starting with--why was this wound of M.O.V.E. crazies allowed to fester in the heart of a residential neighborhood--arming themselves, blaring loudspeakers with their polemics all day and into the night, and harassing the hell out of their neighbors?
How come this was left to a local police force? Where was the FBI and ATF, that has managed to interest itself in chasing around loonies in the woods, but didn't seem to see a federal issue in an armed encampment in the middle of a residential neighborhood?
>>> How come this was left to a local police force? Where was the FBI and ATF, that has managed to interest itself in chasing around loonies in the woods, but didn't seem to see a federal issue in an armed encampment in the middle of a residential neighborhood? <<<
Hmm! I do not remember reading anything about the Philadelphia police asking for FBI assistance. And without such a request, what authority would the FBI have to butt into an attempt to serve local warrants? (Of course seeing how well the ATF and FBI did at Waco, it was better that they were not involved). An armed encampment in the middle of a residential neighborhood remains a local police problem. There were two parts of the problem. First not acting sooner based on neighbor's complaints, so that MOVE built up a fortress, and second dropping high explosives without considering the possibility of resulting fires and how they should be extinguished. (I guess no one had seen pictures of London during WWII.) It was clearly not Philadelphia's shining hour.
Tom
"It was clearly not Philadelphia's shining hour."
Sure it was... The whole neighborhood was shining all night long.
: (
When the Feds wants to get involved, they find a way. All they needed was to find that a weapon was purchased in another state, and it's a federal matter.
>>> All they needed was to find that a weapon was purchased in another state, and it's a federal matter <<<
And when would they have done that? After the siege was under way? Another poster has said the FBI unofficially provided the explosives that were used. It seems they had already screwed up enough without being officially involved. There is nothing magic about the FBI. They are good at finding draft dodgers, but they have been screwing up barricade situations since the Little Bohemia raid in 1934.
Tom
They [the FBI] are good at finding draft dodgers
Actually, they weren't. A case had to be pretty notorious for the FBI to even bother. Even people who refused induction (not actually dodgers, but obvious resisters) were often sent home and not followed up on, in the middle of Viet Nam.
But my point was that the Federal Government as well as other law enforcement can be very selective in what they choose to pursue and what they don't. ATF expended a lot of effort pursuing white-supremicist loony Randy Weaver in the Idaho backwoods, eventually killing his son and his wife while she was holding their baby, but somehow couldn't interest itself in an armed encampment in the midst of a crowded urban neighborhood.
The people in the neighborhood were begging for intervention for months before they could even get a warrant against those people, which led to the shootout and bombing. It was left to the Philadelphia Police to finally pursue and screw up.
Since you don't seem to feel that the Federal Government should have had a role and that the Philly Cops were incompetent, what do you propose should have been done. Leave M.O.V.E. alone and tell the neighbors to just such it up or move out (no pun intended)?
>>> what do you propose should have been done. Leave M.O.V.E. alone and tell the neighbors to just such it up or move out (no pun intended)? <<<
No, if the situation was too tough for the police, the National Guard should have been activated. Military people understand high explosives, and their limitations.
Tom
How come such faith in the National Guard? Remember Kent State?
>>> How come such faith in the National Guard? Remember Kent State? <<<
Well the National Guard was certainly efficient in putting down that dangerous insurrection in Ohio. The National Guard is the military force available to the governor of a state. If it is a political old boys club rather than an efficient military organization, the state is really in tough shape. In California, the National Guard has been called up twice in the past 40 years to augment the LAPD when they allowed police problems to get out of hand. The Guard was able to handle the situation in both cases. The FBI could not have done better.
Tom
All of this avoids the issue of why the situation was allowed to deteriorate to that point. Even without the "bomb," (which wasn't expected to do what it did--but, hey, that's what bombs do) there was an armed standoff and gun battle in the middle of an urban neighborhood. Maybe if someone paid attention when the neighborhood started complaining, instead of when the situation became intolerable, we wouldn't be arguing Phiily Kops vs. National Guard vs. FBI.
Ah. Perhaps I can interject here. Paul, I believe part of the answer might lie in the ethnic makeup of the neighborhood where MOVE was situated. I'm sure had the area been middle-class and less African American, perhaps the state would have 'moved' (sorry about the pun) to do something prior to an armed conflict.
History shows us that poor, black and/or Hispanic neighborhoods are not given much attention unless there is some kind of civil unrest evident. Then they get noticed...
>>> History shows us that poor, black and/or Hispanic neighborhoods are not given much attention unless there is some kind of civil unrest evident. <<<
Fortunately that is pretty much history now that big cities regularly have minority mayors and police chiefs. The days of the NHI codes are pretty much over. (OK, Cincinnati is an exception).
Tom
How come such faith in the National Guard? Remember Kent State?
The National Guardsmen in Penn Station seem to be experts when it comes to flirting with young women ...
threw it from a copter !! saw the pbs video !!
can we talk about the philly rail transit ?
threw it from a copter !! saw the pbs video !!
can we talk about the philly rail transit ?
It was an illegal explosive not available to local police departments. It was obtained privately from a source in the FBI. Fortunately it wasn't strong enough to disturb the Market Street El structure three blocks to the north.
Tovex ® T.M. of E.I. DuPont De Nemours, Co. Inc. (good stuff)
2 the last 2 posts ..........""wrong is right"".........
Far be it from me to be the Devil's Advocate but I do it so well:
Arresting the men may have been a little overboard but you can't tell me you don't understand the police being more than a little suspicious. An oil refinery is an unusual thing to take photos of. People got stopped for taking subway photos well before domestic terrorism was something people took very seriously.
As the 2 men in question mentioned, imagine if they were Middle Eastern and caught in the same situation?
Amadue Diallo (correct spelling?) anyone?
didn't the philly PD drop a bomb on some anarchists house in the 80's, causing an entire row of homes to go up in flames?
in the new war on terrorism, owning a camera is a crime - so all of you on this board that own cameras - you certainly better hide them, or maybe even turn them into the local police station, maybe witha statement signing away your civil rights as well.
think it can't happen here? dan quayle was VP for pete's sake! anything is possible!
(oops - pardon the double post..)
Or drop a bomb onto the bridge to try to scare them away :)
Hey, that's the sort of non-nonesence, no-bullshit approach that more police forces should take with truculent criminals. Granted, in the M.O.V.E case could have been a little more thought out, but criminals need to get the message that standoffs and hi-speed chases will end in their deaths.
In some instances, I agree. But when you botch an operation so bad that over 60 homes burn down, then you seriously F*cked something up.
Ahh. Aslong the media doesn't mention it, (court order of keeping it a secret) no one will know and no one will care.
as well as th deaths of many innocent people who just happen to be nearby.
sounds great. when are you running for president again? let's cut down on some of this overpopulation while we're at it...
What should happen: each man should receive several millions of dollars in compensation, and all the police officers involved should be fired and have their accumulated pension rights forfeited.
What will happen: nothing.
God DAMN America
God DAMN America.
I liked it better when you complaind about suit-covered annuses.
If that's how you really feel about the United States, what the hell are you doing here? This was an isolated incident.
Just because he happens to live there doesn't mean he has to like it or love it like all the overpatriotic rednecks out there.
-Robert King
So loving America qualifies one as an "overpatriotic redneck"?
What does hating America qualify one as? Or does your name calling only attack America and its supporters?
Alan Glick
GIT'EM, Alan GOD BLESS AMERICA
I'm attacking rednecks. No more. No less. If you want to go hide behind a flag and state your incorrect assumptions on my position about America and what qualifies one as a redneck in my books, or even implicitly suggest that I may be a terrorist, and try to force extreme-limit-only sides to issues go right ahead. Fortunately for my limited patience and temper for that kind of crap, people fitting that general discription are few and far between where I live and everybody takes a more sensible, pragmatic and utilitarian approach to things.
-Robert King
No -- your post clearly makes the claim that those who like or love America are like overpatriotic rednecks. Your post clearly insults those who like or love America. My pointing this out does not earn me the comment of yours that I am hiding behind the flag. Of course, when emotional statements are pointed out to those making them, they have no recourse but to indulge in more emotional rants and lies. For example, nowhere did I imply that you were a terrorist, but that won't stop you from making that claim or any of the other over-the-top childish comments in your post.
Alan Glick
Normally I take stories like this with a silent reminder to myself that this sort of thing is (hopefully) an isolated occuance. However, I've been working my ass off at two jobs and I've made plans and committed money to visit Philadelphia for a week near the end of the summer. I'm now quite concerned in a realistic way - particularly since I'm not an American - about what could happen to me since I will be photographing SEPTA's streetcar operations extensively while I'm there. Despite not wanting to be a conspicuous tourist or railfan, I'm beginning to entertain the idea of bringing along as many T shirts that I can get my hands on with pictures of streetcars on them to make it perfectly clear that I'm photographing them because I'm a railfan. I'm really not sure how to proceed on this one.
I agree entirely that compensation is in order for the photographers and that the police should be disciplined severely. This sort of thing is intolerable.
-Robert King
Normally I take stories like this with a silent reminder to myself that this sort of thing is (hopefully) an isolated occuance. However, I've been working my ass off at two jobs and I've made plans and committed money to visit Philadelphia for a week near the end of the summer. I'm now quite concerned in a realistic way - particularly since I'm not an American - about what could happen to me since I will be photographing SEPTA's streetcar operations extensively while I'm there.
I'd suggest that you not go to Philadelphia at all. The city doesn't deserve your money, not if it's paying thugs like those supposed cops.
I'd suggest that you not go to Philadelphia at all. The city doesn't deserve your money, not if it's paying thugs like those supposed cops.
There's a lot of decency in Philly, including in the police dept. Your tar brush is far too wide.
I'm going to Philadelphia, that much is certain. I just need to figure out some workable method of handling whatever may be headed my way if people notice I'm doing a lot of photography and decide to panic. Personally, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if I was going to Vancouver to photograph electric buses, something I'd like to do sooner or later, but not what I'm actually doing in August.
-Robert King
If you wanna go take pics in Philly, take them in one of the high-crime neighborhoods....there aren't any cops around for miles in those areas :)
That makes sense, the cops could get hurt in a high crime area, much better harrasing photographers!
That makes sense, the cops could get hurt in a high crime area, much better harrasing photographers!
Robert, you go and take all the pictures you like. You have that right. Freedom of movement has not been canceled here in America the last time I checked. My only suggestion is that you might tell a policeman if you see one what you are going to do. I don't think there will be a problem. Try to look at it from their position, though. They could think you are taking pictures to "case out the joint" for a future terrorist attack, strange as that might seem to you. September 11 changed the equation in much of our society, sad to say. Everyone has to be more vigilant.
Philadelphia itself is a great city thats making a lot of progress....their police department just sucks. And it is incredibly difficult to straighten out the department. Mayor John Street has more important things on his mind.
I hope that Mayor Street's "more important things on his mind" means the piss poor educational system in that city. Those young minority kids who can't afford a prep school or a fine suburban public school are getting the shaft and no one seems to give a damn about them. Street has the ball in his court and must drive the lane for the good of the kids.
From what I understand, it's actually the people in Harrisburg that have been giving Philly kids the shaft when it comes to public education. IIRC, the state actually took over Philly's public schools despite Mayor Street's protests.
Chicago's schools were stuck in the same situation some years ago, except that the state lawmakers in Springfield did the exact opposite of what Harrisburg did: They dumped it all in Mayor Daley's lap and washed their hands of the whole affair. Daley appointed Paul Vallas to head up the schools and re-structure them, and to everybody's surprise, it's actually working so far.
Vallas was forced out of the job last year when became too independent for Daley's comfort, and decided to run for Governor of Illinois. In one of the closest Democratic primaries in state history, Vallas narrowly lost to Rob Blagojevich, who will be facing Republican Jim Ryan in the fall.
As for Vallas, there's some pretty strong rumors floating around that he may actually be tapped to head up Philadelphia's schools. Stay tuned...
-- David
Chicago, IL
You are absolutely right, David. Harrisburg has cut public education funding by over 20% in the last 30 years, and Philly is really suffering because of it. The problem of the Philly schools has been going on for over 40 years, and it will take a long time to straighen out.
First of all, Philly's tax base has left for the suburbs. That means that Philly has less money to run the same system. And when Harrisburg isn't coughing up extra money, Philly is getting F*cked.
Also, racial politics plays a big part of the problem. Often, the person most qualified for the higher-ranking jobs happens to be white, and its very hard for a white person to head a very black school district. The mayor and the city councilmen would crap their pants.
Its a very complicated story, and Mayor Street needs to clear other things up first. He needs to attract more business and industry to Philly and build up the economy so he can cut the enormous taxes first.
Building industry and economy does not *cut* taxes. It increases them. Hopefully however, it *will* increase the taxbase faster than it will increase the tax.
Elias
What I meant to say was that if Philly's tax base increases, then more revenue would be coming into the city, and the city could cut other taxes. Right now Philly has sky-high taxes. If there is a larger tax base, they will have more income, and can then afford to cut some of the taxes.
His spokesman just announced it today. Looks like I won't be the only Chicagoan moving to Philly this summer!
Story in today's Chicago Tribune:
Vallas to head Philadelphia public schools
Hopefully he'll be able to work similar magic in Philly as he did in Chicago.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Is this a TRANSIT issue?
Oh, shut up.
It was a follow-up to an earlier thread that was of interest to railfans. It's a drop in the bucket compared to all their other off-topic postings on the board right now, and certainly is no less relevant to transit.
And I sure as hell don't need some cyber-nanny to tell me if my postings are off-topic. If Dave wants to delete it, he's more than welcome to. Last time I checked, your name isn't Dave Pirmann.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I guess I am to be a mind reader to know that this post was for someone else asking about a non-transit related issue.
The subject of the posting was clearly spelled out. If it doesn't interest you, then don't click on it. And I guess it would have killed you to click on the previous posting up the thread to find out what it was in response to.
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot this is YOUR world... It's all about you, isn't it?
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is here is of posting non-related transit topics.....this is what SUBTALK and BUSTALK is all about. Why do you think the webmaster decided to stop it?...because too much non-transit related material kept getting posted to the point that it became personal and then rather criminal. So I am only saying, and no, this is not "MY WORLD," for all of us to follow some common sense as what you post. Thank you all out there.......
Let's hope so! Thanks for the link.
They should leave photographers alone and go after scum like scab WAL*MART managers who lock their employees in the store to work as SLAVES. The Government should declare WAL*MART stock WORTHLESS. One BIG thing wrong with America is that there is too much abuse of economic power. GOD BLESS AMERICA GOD DAMN INSURANCE COMPANIES GOD BLESS TRIAL LAWYERS WHO ARE THE ONLY WEAPONS WE HAVE TO FIGHT CORPORATE ABUSE.
GOD BLESS TRIAL LAWYERS WHO ARE THE ONLY WEAPONS WE HAVE TO FIGHT CORPORATE ABUSE.
Even more so because they do their work pro bono rather than taking their cut up front. Regular SAINTS. *lol*
I didn't say they were saints. just a little less dirty than the insurance companies.
You were God blessing them.
If it weren't for them we'd be rooting for our favorite rollerball players. Rebuild certain government agencies (SEC, FTC, ICC, CPSC, EPA, etc) and we would not need them anymore and then you may do with them as you see fit. All I know is that since 9/11 all insurance rates have skyrocketed with terrorism cited as the reason for the increase even though the specific risk biing covered is unrelated to terrorism. Non mutual insurance companies should not be allowed to sell new policies. Mutual should be the only legal ownership structure for insurance companies, or any financial instution, for that matter.
We're way off topic, but the reason for increased premium in most cases is not terrorism, but the need to replenish capital. The major reinsurers have all paid out over a billion in claims already from the WTC event(s). Without replenishing that capital, there is no way they can write as much coverage as they used to -- so supply is down, but demand is the same or higher -- up goes the price.
In the case of worker's comp for large numbers of employees in a single location or property insurance for trophy buildings (or locations near trophy buildings) the risk is considered to be much more than it used to be.
To get somewhere back near the topic, I have been under the impression that the TA (or actually, the MTA) purchases no insurance, even for the most catastrophic claims. Can anyone confirm this?
CG
In St.Louis, the St.Louis Steam Train Association has announced that this is the last season for operation for operation of their Frisco 4-8-2 1522 because their premium ihcrease was so large. I am involved in rail perservation and our group received a letter from our insurance carrier that our premium will increase "more than 10%" = It will probably double or triple. Many rail preservation organizations around the country report the same thing. Several are going out of business. In fact, every day, you read about businessen of all types that are being strangled by this cross subsidy. Mutual ownership of insurance companies by the policyholders and mutual ownership of reinsurers by the insurers is the answer. also, a simple version of tort reform where attorney's contingency percentage is reduced will discourage plaintiffs with weak cases from finding an attorney to take their case. This situation CAN NOT GO ON!!!
Insurance operates in a free market. You have an option not to insure. Thus it is not a rip off. I am aware there are certain legal requirements that requires insurance. It just means you have to have capital backing. So if you have no capital, it's not a rip off. There's nothing stopping you from gathering the capital required to settle a claim (except perhaps your inability to raise cash)
AEM7
You DO NOT have the option not to insure. Businesses must have insurance to cover their work. No company will write you a loan secured by uninsured assets (ie, a mortgage). In most states, a statement of fiscal responsibility or insurance is required for automobile ownership. Companies and municipalities that self-insure generally have sufficent assets to meet major claims.
-Hank
You DO NOT have the option not to insure.
yes you do
Businesses must have insurance to cover their work.
or have enough capital to meet the self insurance requirement. if you don't have enough capital, thats your problem
You need to check up on your US laws. To do business with the public, you must have insurance, or another form of financial surety. To get a loan, the assets used to secure such loan must be insured. The only people who have to option not to insure are private homeowners with no secured liabilities.
-Hank
It isn't the law which requires insurance, generally it is business prudence and economic reality. Banks require their mortgagees to purchase property insurance, auto leasers require comp and collision coverage, etc.
There are very few laws requiring insurance. In many states, even the "mandatory auto insurance" laws can be fulfilled by showing proof of financial responsibility. Workers Comp in many states is not mandatory if a company posts a sizeable security deposit (and reinsures catastrophic claims).
CG
Insurance... It is at its base people arranging together to protect one another. The first fire departments were actually insurance companies of a sort. If you bought in, they would come hand help you in the event of a fire. If you didn't buy in, they would bring the marshmallows.
You are paying a rate, in a pool with others, to protect your investment, in the event of a catastrophie. You hope that your house never burns down, you hope that you never have a wreck, you hope that you are not sued. And so you do not expect to see any return on your insurance premiums.... Unless an unexpected catrostohropy occurs.
Medical insureance? Pharmacy insurance? what arrant nonsence is this. Here you DO EXPECT TO RECOVER MORE THAN YOU PAY! It is NOT insurance at all, but rather a financing shceme, and the sooner people get that through their thick heads, the better our health care systmes will become.
Automobile Insurance! What a JOKE! It is based on the ancient (1700s notion) that you only need liability insurance if you have property that you would want to protect in the event of a law suit!
The onus of liabaility insurance ought not be on those who own cars, but rather on those who have taken out a driver's license! (It is good economic snese... because the premium pool is spread much wider, and individual rates would then be lower~~~ though a family would now have to insure several drivers riather than one car, the agragate ought to be in the ballpark the same). It helps to weed out the bad (drunk) drivers with less governmental intervention. You BAD, you PAY more before you can be licensed. Rate too high.... buy a metrocard.
Yes a millionare could post a bond, and thereby be self insured. No problem. And so this is how the city and the subway insure themselves... The cover suits out of their own pockets. Meethinks that the municipality, (and the ta) need some better protection against suits. Yes they are at fault for driving over that lady on the tracks.... Having be warned that she was there... but too many suits are too friviolus for words.
Oh well.... what do I know about ekonomicks!
Elias
Businesses must have insurance to cover their work.
or have enough capital to meet the self insurance requirement. if you don't have enough capital, thats your problem
And how many rail preservation organizations would have remotely enough capital to self-insure???
Businesses must have insurance to cover their work.
or have enough capital to meet the self insurance requirement. if you don't have enough capital, thats your problem
And how many rail preservation organizations would have remotely enough capital to self-insure???
my point exactly
if you dont have money, dont whine
if you do have money, go self insure and cut the insurers' profit margins
if you need/want the risk coverage, pay up
if you think it's too expensive? well, too bad. the insurance industry is dodgy anyhow to start with; it's a matter of debate how much they charge you viz-a-viz some other customer. the price does not really relate to risk but more relate to how much they can get away with charging. price is market-based and not cost-based. if you think you can cover similar level of risk with lower costs, persuade some investors this is the case and go into the insurance business. until then, pay up and shut up
AEM7
They could always go without any liability coverage -- since I'd assume that other than their equipment they have very few assets. Of course that's not an option if they're getting public money.
It also makes it very difficult to recruit volunteers who have any personal wealth (in the event of an incident, I imagine the plaintiff attorneys would go looking for a way to cut through to the personal assets of the volunteers if their only recovery was going to be 1/3 of a steam engine).
CG
Just for my 10 cents worth the whole setup STINKS and it is not deep pockets that pays...it is the little sucker, you, you, you and me, the preservationists, business in general...and if things aren't forced out of business the consumer pays,pays, pays.Meantime the lawyers get a nce hunk of change out of it, somebody who'd probably never have had a pot to --- in sees a fortune they'd never have had..all power to them BUT somebody pays, as always it "trickles down" to the little guy.
A business that can't withstand a 10% price increase in anything they purchase was probably on very shaky footing to begin with. I'd guess, however, that the increase for a tourist railroad is probably closer to 50%.
A single year over year isn't really a fair one. I'd be very curious to compare what the St. Louis Steam Train Association paid for their insurance in 1987 and then compare it to what they paid in 2001 and what is proposed for 2003. In most cases, rates for commercial insurance in 2001 were lower than they were in 1987, before factoring in inflation and changes in the litigousness of Americans.
Mutual ownership generally works well with smaller risks, but the ability to raise any kind of capital is extremely limited. If you want to get into anything of size, you would need some form of assessable mutual -- and there are very few policyholders that would sign up for something like that.
Once you get into the world of reinsurance, you're talking global risks and the potential for massive losses (or profits). I don't believe there has ever been a successful mutual reinsurer. A reinsurer's major selling point is their capital base and their ability to add to it in an emergency (the highest rated US reinsurer is Warren Buffet's Gen Re). Mutuals operate with limited capital and nearly no ability to raise additional $$. I doubt a mutual reinsurer would be able to bind a single contract.
Expect the insurance situation in the US to get worse in the next 12 months.
CG
A business that can't withstand a 10% price increase in anything they purchase was probably on very shaky footing to begin with. I'd guess, however, that the increase for a tourist railroad is probably closer to 50%.
I saw that and I suspect that that is a typo on his part. I would be very surprised if the increase was anything LESS THAN 100% !
Elias
Re Read my post - " I am involved in rail preservation and our group received a letter from our insurance carrier that our premium will increase "more than 10%" =It will probably double or triple"
Re Read my post - " I am involved in rail perservation and our group received a letter from our insurance carrier that our premium will increase "more than 10%" =It will probably double or triple"
(This situation CAN NOT GO ON!!!)
Oh, yes it can.
Most people are ignorant of the economics of insurance. Insurance companies collect your money, then they get to hold it until its time to pay out. When investment returns are good (ie. when stock prices are going up 20 percent per year), then they'll do what they have to do to get your money, even take in less in premiums than they have to pay out in claims. The investment returns are expected to make up the difference. So, in a bull market you get an insurance price war.
What happens when the stock market starts going DOWN 10 percent per year, instead of up the expected 20? Suddenly, insurnace companies don't really want to write policies anymore. Meanwhile reserves have fallen, and regulators start worrying that there won't be enough money to pay claims, and demand more revenue to finance reserves. Suddenly, everyone has to take in far more in premiums than the amount paid in claims, enough to cover investment losses, costs and profits plus the claims themselves. KABOOM!
Just wait a decade or so, and the cycle will reverse again.
You've pretty much summed things up, though there are two clarifications to your post.
First is that it isn't really the stock market that drives the insurance cycles, the bond market has more influence. Insurers are limited by statute as to how much they can hold in stocks -- most assets (usually about 60-70%) are in bonds. Up until about 12-18 months ago, insurers were figuring 4-6% rates of return on $$$ held during the time between when premiums are received and claims are paid. Now no interest credit is being given.
Second is that it won't take 10 years to turn this cycle. Rates will reach there peak in about 12-18 months and then begin another slow decline. The last period of declining rates lasted 13 years (from 1987-2000).
Not that people will notice this in their personal insurance. Homeowners and Auto insurance have very little investment return built in, and generally follow a more steadily upward trend to keep pace with inflation.
CG
>> GOD BLESS TRIAL LAWYERS [THE ONLY] WEAPONS WE HAVE TO FIGHT CORPORATE ABUSE. <,
First, stop shouting.
Second...trial lawyers as a weapon *against* corporate abuse? Puh-Lease!
It is lawyers (many of whom are employed or retained by insurance companies) and lobbyists who got us into this mess in the first place.
OK, so you like unions. In my opinion -- for the most part, unions suck.
Please feel free to continue to spout your meaningless drivel at will...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
When speaking about this issue Insurance companies and their shills refer to plaintiff's counsel as trial lawers. Of course, they have attorneys on staff (the TRUE pond scum) but they don't like to talk about that because it's easier to evade payment by creating the perception that: A. many claims are fraudulent (actually not as common as they're ad budgets make you think,) and B: that they are out lawered by the victims even though the only thing bigger than thein ad budget is their legal budget.
I agree on the part of unions. They have their place in the world, but especially in terms of politics, all they do is stand in the way of progress and create a drain on our tax dollars.
Read "A Prayer For The City", by Buzz Bissinger. Its all about Ed Rendell as mayor of Philly, and how the unions screwed the entire city.
Jeez Red, that is pretty nasty stuff about meaningless drivel. You can disagree with him about lawyers, which puts me on your side, but allow John to give his opinion without a mean counter attack. I happen to agree with him on unions, though. They are needed. Though there have been some crooks and scandals by union leaders in the past, for the most part they have played a very positive role for the betterment of the worker's economic well being.
>> ...pretty nasty stuff about meaningless drivel<<
You are correct in your assesssment.
Further, I apologize not only to you and John, but to anyone else who may have thought those particular words were overly harsh. It was late (as I recall) and I was getting a mite punchy.
Sorry for the delay in apologizing, but I was away for the weekend and am only now catching up...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
It should be: "God DAMN those Keystone Kops" not the entire country...
It should be: "God DAMN those Keystone Kops" not the entire country...
I guess you're not planning a trip to Philly in the near future, are you, Doug??????!!!!!!!
I'll be undercover in Philly. Don't tell anyone (just between you and me) but my disguise will make me look like heypaul...
I agree with your post !! hell i took pictures of a few SMELLY
oil - refi' in many states ...!!
>>>>>>God DAMN America !!
Have to disagree with you. Those photographers have the Consititutional right to speak to a lawyer and to know what they have been charged with. Those pigs (cops) should be punished severely for what they did. Just like the dirty bomb suspect Jose Padilla (an American CITIZEN) currently being held without charges. How many months has he been held now? He should be (and will, with just compensation when his trial finally comes) let go to teach wannabe dictator John Ashcroft not fuck with our rights. Where does it end? Who's gonna considered a war suspect? So far, the "crime" of photography is considered an act of war, what's next? I've personnally have been held (but not arrested) for two hours by some MARTA pigs for taking photos in a station. The reason? "Because of all the stuff going on." The strength of a country is tested during the BAD times, not the good. If we can't uphold the Constitution now, we're FUCKED.
Oh, crap! You have the same position as me. I thought you were being sarcastic, and I didn't see the "nothing" part. My bad. My opinion strill stands.
Have to disagree with you. Those photographers have the Consititutional right to speak to a lawyer and to know what they have been charged with. Those pigs (cops) should be punished severely for what they did. Just like the dirty bomb suspect Jose Padilla (an American CITIZEN) currently being held without charges. How many months has he been held now? He should be (and will, with just compensation when his trial finally comes) let go to teach wannabe dictator John Ashcroft not fuck with our rights. Where does it end? Who's gonna considered a war suspect? So far, the "crime" of photography is considered an act of war, what's next? I've personnally have been held (but not arrested) for two hours by some MARTA pigs for taking photos in a station. The reason? "Because of all the stuff going on."
You're not disagreeing with me. In fact, I agree with just about everything you say. Ashcroft is a dictator, and is also one of the biggest idiots in the government - he lost his Senate re-election campaign to a dead man, and he is afraid of calico cats because he believes they're instruments of the devil (that's not a joke!)
My theory for all this bedwetting paranoia is that Americans just aren't used to living with uncertainty and fear. With the exception of Pearl Harbor, there have been no major warlike acts on U.S. territory since the Civil War. That bred complacency, which of course came to an abrupt end on September 11th. And more to the point, we had no experience to guide us in dealing with the new, less safe world. Absurb overreaction was the result. I can only hope that this climate of fear will diminish over time.
The strength of a country is tested during the BAD times, not the good.
Very well put. It looks like the United States has failed that test, big time. What a disgrace.
You're not disagreeing with me
I realized that after I posted, check the reply to myself I posted just three minutes before you posted this one.
I agree 100%
I hope we get past the childish and dangerous idea that everyone who pins on a badge is automatically a hero, although, many truly are and their heroism is stained by scum like these.
This isn't the only incident the Philadelphia Police Department has had to make them look bad. They probably have the worst reputation of any major PD in the country. We can blame Frank Rizzo for that. His racial policy up until the 80s was to beat the crap out of black people, whether they did anything or not. If police brutality or misconduct would happen in the US, chances are, it will happen in Philadelphia.
Maybe the police did overact. But all we have from the article is the story of the photographers, their attorneys, and the ACLU, reported uncritically. If I were trying out my new camera taking multiple pictures of an oil refinery, the least I would expect is some interest from the police.
In other venues, we note that, pre-9/11, some were aware that middle eastern men (racial profiling accusation) were taking flight lessons (lots of people do that) and weren't really interested in taking off or landing (so what?) and were paying in cash (hey, it's says "legal tender" right on the notes). And post-9/11 were screaming: "how come nobody connected the dots!!!!"
It's interesting to me how quickly we're ready to blame the police, even post-9/11.
what a bunch of fascist thugs. YES, I am aware there is 'a war on terrorism' but last I looked the Constitution had not yet been abrogated. And this sort of crap has gone on for years. A RR bull who accosted me in Potomac Yard circa 1961 suggested I might be a spy--right a high school kid with a folding camera photographing random freight cars. At the very least stiff fines, long suspensions, and retraining.
apologies for generally off topic.
>>> but last I looked the Constitution had not yet been abrogated. <<<
Unless of course the government wants to call you an "enemy combatant" (taking target photos for use by terrorist saboteurs) and lock you away without trail, charges or even the ability to communicate with an attorney.
Tom
lets all show up at THAT LOCATION take TONS of pictures !!!
can they arrest all of us ???
@ now can we go back to talking about rail trnsportation ????
.......lol !
Thank you for reminding us of the stated purpose of SubTalk, Salaam. I posted the story with the unstated connection to railfan photography.
Former (?) SubTalker heypaul had to erase railfan videotape in front of a police officer.
The gentleman who accompanied Jersey Mike, Isaac Shomer and me on the SubTalk SEPTA field trip last December was escorted out of the Wilmington (DE) Amtrak station for photographing trains.
A kid in South Jersey had two rolls of film confiscated by police 6 months ago for photographing Conrail Shared Assets freight trains within ten miles of a nuclear electricity generating plant.
Hop onto a night owl flight and join our SEPTA trip tomorrow at 9:30 AM Eastern time and enjoy a session of riding and photographing trains in and around Philly.
Bob
thankz !! whish i was there thankz for the invite !!
is america becoming nazi germany ??
God DAMN America
says a subtalker !!
Let's be serious, these guys should know that in this post-September 11th world that something like this would easily arouse suspicions, just like late last week when 2 Iranian nationals from the U.N. were spotted and later detained by authorities for videotaping the Statue Of Liberty. I mean you've got to use common sense out here, because I would get suspicious too if I saw 2 unknown persons taking all kinds of photos of a place like an oil refinery, and think of what kind of target that would make for a terrorist. So I think that the police exercised an age old mentality of "better safe than sorry". And that mentality is important to have especially in this world we are living in now.
late last week when 2 Iranian nationals from the U.N. were spotted and later detained by authorities for videotaping the Statue Of Liberty
I could understand how the Philly incident occurred - however the 4 hour detention not to allow contact with an attorney is outrageous and I hope those photographers win MILLIONS in court!!! Police should also be made aware and sensitive to the fact that there are hobbyists who are into things like railroad photograpy. A few simple questions on site would have resolved the issue here.
Having said this the detention of people videotaping the Statue of Liberty is EXTREMELY troubling. If I were a tourist I would want a video or photographic record of my visit here. What is the point of visiting somewhere if you can't photograph it. NYC is sending a clear message to tourists - "STAY AWAY"
I feel that the free market is probably the best weapon against all these paranoid terrorists fears. If people just STAY AWAY from locations that have disproportionate security measures (like the Washington Mall this 4th or the entire Independance Mall in Philly) then those in charge will quickly get the message. I mean would you put up with airport style security to access an open public place? If you had to pass through a metal detector to like enter Battery Park would you bother going there for lunch? No, of course you woudln't. When the officials see that they are guarding what in effect has become a deserted plot of land they will realize the insanity of their actions. They could achieve the same effect just by fencing off said public place and making it a moot point. After all this patriotic fervor dies down you will see drastic decreases in the attendance at any location with disproportinate security.
I feel that the free market is probably the best weapon against all these paranoid terrorists fears. If people just STAY AWAY from locations that have disproportionate security measures (like the Washington Mall this 4th or the entire Independance Mall in Philly) then those in charge will quickly get the message. I mean would you put up with airport style security to access an open public place? If you had to pass through a metal detector to like enter Battery Park would you bother going there for lunch? No, of course you woudln't. When the officials see that they are guarding what in effect has become a deserted plot of land they will realize the insanity of their actions.
Indeed, it looks as if the fireworks display on the (heavily guarded) D.C. Mall yesterday was a big flop in crowd terms, although the heat might have been an issue too. But your idea is an excellent one.
But its still ridiculous. The photographers were standing on Passyunk Avenue, which is a very heavily traveled bridge. They were taking pictures of things obvious to thousands of drivers every day. Its not like they were taking pictures of something secretive or relating to detailed plant operations. If you aren;t allowed to take pictures of something that easily viewed, then America has really gone to hell.
Just a quick FYI, it IS illegal to take photographs of a secure federal facility (in my case, this was the Federal Metropolitan Correctional Facility in Brooklyn). I was escorted into the prison, my film was confiscated, my driver license was recorded, I was questioned on who I was working for, and I was let go. I did not have proper media credentials at that time (I do now, and can take photos unrestricted within NYC). At the time, Al Sharpton was being held there for protesting the military exercises on Vieques, and I looked like this:
I'm sure this had something to do with it.
-Hank
What do you have to do to get the proper media credentials?
Work for a recognized media organization.
-Hank
I could not see the picture you posted (I'm assuming from the little box with the red x in it). Is that a browser problem on my computer or on of those things were only some many people can see the picture at one time?
I'd really like to see it!
Thanks
It's hosted on Geocities, that's the problem. You can load the pic seperately.
-Hank
One way I found to get around the remote loading bans by Geocities, Lycos, Angelfire, etc is by making the picture part of a webpage, albeit a very large part, like 95%. Then you could put a link of the url right on the forum post. The only problem is that besides getting the image alone you'll get popup ads. But then that should make the free website server happy and not mind you using the loophole. An example is the image of me operating the doors on probably the ONLY R9-Low V marriage in the world at Branford
what does ""Al Sharpton "" have to do with this ..........
your photo link did not work .......dont worry this happened 2 me 2 !
Al Sharpton was in the prison I was attempting to photograph. I work for a black newspaper.
As for my photo...
-Hank
yea the link (s) sometimes do not work
yahoo and webshots sony pictures forget it !!!
....the websiyte blocks it !
finally i found one that would allow photo uploads / transfers !!!
here is my mug shot below ...you look like a bodyguard !!!!
lol !!
And Peace be with you too.
Nice Picture, Thanks
Elias
That streetcar looks so much better in the Pacific Electric paint.
-Robert King
yes it does! there is a plan for a third BIG RED CAR>>redbird<<
as i was given information to convert another blue line car
by the yardmaster at the long beach blue line yards ...
the san diego trolley ""redbirds"" all look very nice
maybe the color scam should nave not been the MTA white & gold.....
Heck, I'm surprised the fashion police don't put you under the jailhouse for those glasses :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just a quick FYI, it IS illegal to take photographs of a secure federal facility
To me that means there is a federal law on the books that specifically states this. However I doubt there is any law that prohibits the taking of pictures of refineries, power plants, or for that matter - railroads! If the government wants to prohibit such picture taking then congress or the state legislature should pass a law - my point being that police should not have the right to be lawmakers as well as enforcers.
But what have we come to - the only countries that prohibited many types of photography used to be BEHIND the iron curtain.
If terrorists were out gathering information you probably wouldn't see it. It's the hidden hand that delivers the deadly blow.
I would get suspicious too ... the police exercised an age old mentality of "better safe than sorry". And that mentality is important to have especially in this world we are living in now.
NO.
If we succumb to that mentality then the terrorists have won. Restrictions on personal freedom are a hallmark of repressive and totalitarian régimes, not of a democracy. The United States has already moved a great distance away from the democratic ideals upon which it was founded; we need to move back towards the system envisioned by the founding fathers rather than permitting ourselves to be pushed farther away from it by a bunch of two-bit thugs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> we need to move back towards the system envisioned by the founding fathers rather than permitting ourselves to be pushed farther away from it by a bunch of two-bit thugs. <<<
Hey, what can you say, we more or less elected the guy who appointed the two-bit thugs Aschcroft and Rumsfeld, and the United States Senate (who should know better) approved them.
Tom
WRONG! We didn't elect the Resident of the White House...the Electoral College SELECTED him! If i recall correctly, Gore got over 530,000 more votes.
WRONG! We didn't elect the Resident of the White House...the Electoral College SELECTED him! If i recall correctly, Gore got over 530,000 more votes.
Which is only .3% more of the total votes cast.
The electoral college is the founding fathers intention. Like the Senate, it serves to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Otherwise, all one would have to do is campaign in big cities and win their vote, small states would be left out and be effectively useless.
The question hinges on who really won Florida. This is a question whose answer will never satisfy anyone. While it is too late for it now, I personally believe that the right answer would be to satisfy NO ONE, that is not have Florida send any electoral votes to Washington. Disenfranchisement would be the appropriate punishment for a state that is unable to handle an election smoothly. The Constitution gives the House of Representatives power to elect the President if the Electoral College fails to do so, and those members are actually elected by the same people who choose electors. In the end, Bush would still be the president (28 states are majority Republican in the House and it would go by state).
As for who would be the Vice President, that would be an interesting outcome.
530,000 is not .3% of the total votes. The total votes cast was in the neighborhood of 100 million....making 500,000 .5%
The electoral college was rendered useless as soon as the two party system came into affect in the early 1800s. Putting small states at priority was not the founding fathers intentions. As originally planned, people would vote for a ELECTOR that they trusted would decide to place their vote with the right candidate. This was because at the time most people didn't know anything about the candidates, since there was virtually no media. Nowadays, you vote for the candidate, and the entire electoral process is pretty much useless. Depending on what party you belong to, you may or may not give a damn about smaller states. Gore focused his energy on big states that had a high democratic presence. Bush focused on all the smaller ones that he would win much easier.
making 500,000 .5%
Ooh, .2% is a big difference.
In any event, still smaller than the margin of error, making an effective tie.
As originally planned, people would vote for a ELECTOR that they trusted would decide to place their vote with the right candidate.
In effect, people wishing to become electors would campaign not on their qualifications, but rather on whom they would vote for.
When you vote for a member of Congress, you want to choose someone based on how they will vote. It's much easier when the person you elect will make only one vote and then go home.
Depending on what party you belong to, you may or may not give a damn about smaller states.
Which is why the smaller states need protection, otherwise nobody would ever give a damn about them.
Gore focused his energy on big states that had a high democratic presence. Bush focused on all the smaller ones that he would win much easier.
All of them focused on the "swing states" which could go either way, regardless of whether they are large or small. The candidates couldn't care less about states (like New York) that are strongly one party or another, because the outcome is expected and almost impossible to change.
Your memory is getting a little short Pig. The fault for that debacle rests at the feet of the liberal commentators who showed their bias when reporting the results. Just remember Tom Brokaw said: "We are now ahead" when Gore jumped to an early lead in Florida, and nothing he says can stand up to his mealy mouth defense. Also, he, Rather of CBS, and Jennings of ABC called Florida for Gore even though he was leading with less than 20% of the vote cast and a lead of only two percent. They did NOT concede North Carolina to Bush even though he was ahead by 8%, did not concede Georgia to Bush even though he was ahead by 12%, and did not call Virginia for Bush even though he was ahead by 10% with more of the voted counted in those three states than in Florida.
And remember this.....There are two time zones in Florida and when those liberal and bias bastards called Florida for Gore, between 100,000-150,000 voters decided not to go to the polls. Since Bush carried the Panhandle areas overwhelmingly, those people unable to vote would have swollen Bush's total so that it would have been close to 100,000 votes more than Gore rather than the 537. Democrats seem to have amnesia about this. But those are the facts.
Just remember Tom Brokaw said: "We are now ahead" when Gore jumped to an early lead in Florida, and nothing he says can stand up to his mealy mouth defense.
Regardless of to whom Florida was called, the election there would still have both candidates fall within 1/2 or 1% of each other, leading to the machine recount that eroded Bush's lead. The media calling for the wrong guy did little.
There are two time zones in Florida and when those liberal and bias bastards called Florida for Gore, between 100,000-150,000 voters decided not to go to the polls.
Those figures are obviously overblown. How many people wait for the last hour to go to vote and change their mind because they're watching TV? I'm sure that there are a few, but not a significant percentage of the population.
Those figures are obviously overblown. How many people wait for the last hour to go to vote and change their mind because they're watching TV? I'm sure that there are a few, but not a significant percentage of the population.
More are the ones who will not go out to vote thnkg that the election is already decided.
Elias
That's right and that's what happened thanks to messrs Brokaw, Rather, and Jennings, the biased bastards.
Democrats voiced the same complaints in 1980 in California, when Jimmy Carter conceded the election to Ronald Reagan well before the polls closed on the west coast. California Deomcrats were irate that several close elections were decided in favor of Republicans because west coast Democrats didn't go to the polls after the heard their candidate had lost the presidential race.
It will be interesting to see how the networks handle calling this year's elections in states with close Senate/Governor's races and that are in more than one time zone (like Florida, Michigan, Tennessee and Texas) though the real test won't be until the 2004 presidential race.
More are the ones who will not go out to vote thnkg that the election is already decided.
If the election is decided at 5 PM I can understand that. But again I ask: How many people are going to wait for the last hour to vote, and then only do so if they feel it's necessary? Not a significant number at all.
Nevertheless, there were other irregularities in the state that would have thrown the election the other way.
I still say the fair thing to do would be to disenfranchise Florida, the election should have been decided by the House, not the Supreme Court.
The house couldn't be counted on as reliably as daddy's judges ...
The people who decided not to vote were not 'unable' to vote.
-Hank
And just what does that mean? They were discouraged when the liberal newscasters called the state prematurely, figuring the state was already in Gore's column. You get that? Only two percent separated them with about 20% of the vote in. Bush was leading in three other states by a much higher percentage and more of the vote in, and yet those bums did not call those states for Bush. Period. End of Story.
By your own admission you're implying that the voting public are basically sheep and can't think for themselves, and so gave up on voting altogether beacuse the likes of Dan Rather and/or Tom Brokaw led them to think their candidate didn't have a chance? Uh, I think you've read more into this than there is...
Hey Doug, maybe I have, but I'm getting tired of those guys who keep trying to replay the 2000 Election. No pundit should call a state for anyone until the polls close in that state. Then we could avoid what happened two years ago. But I stick with my belief that those three mousketeers are very biased in the liberal direction.
The voting public, LIKE sheep, are only as good as the manure they're fed. Look at what happened to this entire thread. No "middle ground," no "reasoned enlightenment" ... we have "America" picking one extreme of thought or the other, waving the devil on a stick at the "other side" ... frankly I'm ashamed that after all we've been through in the past ten months, we're not one bit the better for all of it.
Germany, back in the 30's elected a right wing leader who promised to get the lazy off their duffs, take care of the socialist menace and bring back the pride of the fatherland. Then there was Stalin. The moral of the story is that perhaps NEITHER extreme is very good at all for any of us and MAYBE, just MAYBE we can all find a common ground.
Don't mind me, I'm a radical fundamentalist middle of the roader and I htink both sides are full of sheep. Moo. :)
Well put.....MOOOO back at ya....;-D
I take it that you aren't a fan of liberals....
Just remember, a liberal is much more likely to improve public transit than a conservative. Liberals don't have to be concerned about oil companies donating to their party. Liberals don't have to try to use as much oil as possible in this country. Liberals are concerned about the environment, and public transit is environmentally friendly. Liberals are more likely to spend the billions necessary for transit projects.
Before you express dislike over the so-called liberal bias in the media, why don't you get your head out of the sand and start to think a little about the good things liberals do.
The good things liberals do, like pick our pockets with high taxes and give us our money's worth with great highways, good schools, low crime, etc, etc, etc. Get real, I used to be a liberal, in fact, I was a member of the Young Democrats in both junior college and my Alma Mater. I saw just how phony they are. They talk integration of the races, a great point, but they send t heir kids to private schools, they laud intgreated communities but live in gated ones where the only thing black they see is the soil in their Hispanic tended gardens. Don't give me any crap about what liberals do. They have their hands in the cookie jar with the big shots as well. And if you have heard of Senators Kerry, Cantwell, Corzine, and Koll, you would know they are among the richest people in that body and not a one of them is a Republican.
I have always thought of Democrsts as political prostitutes, willing to sell their beliefs to whoever would buy thim.This of course has fractured the parts, since different regions have so many different agenda... But to be balanced, the Republicans have also prostituted themselves in recent years to a business-money oriented bent, somewhat disguised as conservatism, and frequently co-opted by a conservative agenda far to the right of where I would want to be. But... at least they are not fragmented like the Deomcrats.
In my picture of things, it is not a continum from liberal to conservative, but rather a circle, with the ultra librals being almost indistinguished from the ultra conservatives. But that was then, and this is now... and today Other agenda masquarade as liberal or conservative. A true conservative would not put up with the spoiled meat that Mr. Ashcroft sometimes seems to relish... A ture Consevative would be very much in favor of personal liberties, much much more so than a Liberal, or so I would think. I do not think that a true Conservative would bail out a business (such as an airline), but might well support a project (perhaps a rialroad authority) for the public good. But these are less conservatives seem more to me to be grasping Keeplicans, trying to hold on to every dollar, rather than investing in the infrastructure of America.
Of course if it were going for the infrastructure of America, it might not sit so badly with them, but *THEY ALL KNOW* that it is going to "those with a culture of government Subsisies" or some such apelation wich looks to me to be a circumlocution to avoid confessing that they are racist, and against welfare. Failing to realize that 'Bread and Circus' is a long conservative tradition (2000++years) to keep the rabble fat and happy, so as to not revolt against the government.
In any event it is unconsiable not to help others, who need a hand out in this life, or a helping hand to improve themselves for a better job, and besides, for the most part will turn around and spend the money in your store anyway.
We have to BREAK the idea of the overnment being the handout of last resort.
We also have to BREAK the idea that each person is an island, and not responsable for the fabric of the whole community.
< /rant >
Elias
Well said Elias. True Conservatives are not the greedy plutocrats who rape our economy, rip investors off while they line their pockets. They should have their balls ripped off, the dirty bums. Oh no, I do not favor everything my party does. In fact, Bush had better get with the program and go after those corporate louses before it makes it bad for the rest of us who are middle class advocates at heart.
>> ...In fact, Bush had better get with the program and go after those corporate louses <<
Unfortunately, it is looking more and more as if he was one of those "louses" himself.
Bush & Cheney are so in bed with the oil industry and its lobby that there is little chance that any meaningful alternative energy sources will be explored as long as they are in office.
And few things (environmentally) are scarier than Gale Norton being Secretary of the Interior.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The good ol' leaders of the GOP...
G-as
O-il
P-etroleum
>>> the Republicans have also prostituted themselves in recent years to a business-money oriented bent, somewhat disguised as conservatism, and frequently co-opted by a conservative agenda far to the right of where I would want to be. But... at least they are not fragmented like the Deomcrats. <<<
The fragmentation among Democrats is exactly why they are not so dangerous.
Tom
The fragmentation among Democrats is exactly why they are not so dangerous.
Agreed, but that frequently gives the office to the Republican Candidate.
Elias
There were no conservatives or liberals 2000 years ago, the terms are only 200 years old.
Liberal comes from the Latin root liber, the same as the root of Liberty.
Conservatives comes from the word conserve.
By the true definitions of the words, conservatives want to maintain the status quo (ALWAYS BAD), while liberals want change (good, in moderation).
The liberals were the bourgeoisie who wanted to take down the aristocracy and modernize. The conservatives were the gentry, who wanted to maintain their status quo of kings, nobles and oppressed masses (like Metternich).
When the Industrial Revolution brought the bourgeoisie to power, the new gentry were for freedom for people and for business, that was the liberal of the 19th century.
By the time these people were in power, they became the conservatives, they achieved their change, the liberals were now the people who wanted to overturn big business, but still have personal liberties.
It gets more complicated, but today, conservative and liberal has NOTHING to do with change or lack thereof. A conservative is generally for controlled masses and free business and a liberal is for controlled business and free masses. This is why the term libertarian has to be coined for people who want free masses and business.
The terms conservative and liberal mean nothing, they're just based on 19th Century political classifications. In the future, the stand of the conservative and liberal parties will both change.
In the United States, the parties are named for 18th Century political classifications, and the Democrats used to be the conservative party while the Republicans were the liberal party. Remember when the South was solidly Democratic?
There were no conservatives or liberals 2000 years ago, the terms are only 200 years old.
?????
The conservatives were the gentry, who wanted to maintain their status quo of kings, nobles and oppressed masses
And Roman Emperors who wanted to pacify the mobs of people in the city by ensuring that they were well fed and entertained (the colloseum) -bread and circus- so that they would not revolt and overthrow them.
What bothers me vis a vis welfare in this country is that it operates much the same way: "Here, take this money and don't bother me with your problems." (And oh yeah... vote for us again in November, Thank You.)
According to me, giving and taking money DOES NOT SOVLE social and interpersonal problems. (That woman who won that 14M judgement is not going to be 'healed' or 'made whole' or 'all better' just 'cause she was given money... she STILL has the underlying problem that drove her to despiration in the first place). Having people come into your life with assistance, care, and concern will make a diference, but *that* costs five times as much as just giving people money and letting them fend for themselves.
Some Catholics are really torn over the issues of political parties in this country: They really favor the social positions and policies of the Democrats, but cannot support them at all because they support Abortions. Rpublicans do not have much of a social conscious, but they are against Abortion, and so that is that.
The problem is that both of these dog houses are being wagged by the tail fringe! Too bad a third party does not have a chance.
Oh well.... there is no resolution to this issue.
Elias
You are only describing the rich democrats....which is the minority of the party. The MAJORITY of democratic voters are not wealthy at all.
The MAJORITY of democratic voters are not wealthy at all.
But this is also true of Republican Voters!
Thats very true, but the point i am trying to get across is that the Democratic party is supposed to benefit the working class, while the Republican party is supposed to support business and wealth. Whether this actually happens or not, thats another matter.
Business and wealth benefits everyone.
Without business, how will people work and get a paycheck?
But what I am getting at is that often times Republicans will favor big business and the wealthiest class, while neglecting the primary concerns of the working class. You are right though, they all tie together.
Chris,
I fully agree. An (maybe overly simplistic) example is in management/union situations, A democratic administration would tend to view things more from the point of the union while a republican administration would tend to view things more from the point of business.
My feelings are that business will always look to maximise profits, more times than not, they tends to lead to negatives for the workers; things like conners being cut on safety (we dont' need two men to do that job, one can do it; maybe so, but two may be needed to do it safely) and senior workers being let go to be replaced by junior ones who make less money. Democracts would call that unfair labor practices, Republicans would call it the wisedom of the free market.
Thats very true, but the point i am trying to get across is that the Democratic party is supposed to benefit the working class, while the Republican party is supposed to support business and wealth. Whether this actually happens or not, thats another matter.
That's too bad! Why should we have a political system that divides. That divides people into classes. Jobs and employment come form the 'wealthy business sector' and Spending money on schools and training builds good employees. Spending money of city and national infrastructure provides jobs for both business and the people they hire. Spending money on people -human assets- who need public assistance for whatever constellation of reasons will spend that money buying things that businessmen provide.
Hello? Phone home... We are one people, living in one country, we just gotta make things work... or the colapse of Capitalism will be truly many orders of magnitude more spectacular than the colapse of Communism. And It is already starting if you want to look at Enron or WorldCom... : A greedy dishonest business is a very troubling situation, that can bring down faith in the markets, and in our money.
And the thread on Labor Relations is also troubling. Why should business, especially a firm such a the TA try to shaft its employees, or even give the perception of shafting them. Hey, nobody can be perfect 100% of the time. An employee is a valuable company asset and needs to be protected by the company, not treated like a snot filled tissue. If an Employee cannot be 100% pro his company, he ought to be working elsewhere. An employer is entitled to expect loyality in return for his money. An employee is entitled to expect respect, training, suppor, and a paycheck from his employer.
It is the same thing as the political parties, only on a more personal scale.
Elias
Read any economics text book published in the last 20 years and you will read that profit=ethics.
Read any economics text book published in the last 20 years and you will read that profit=ethics.
And they don't mention Enron or WorldCom at all!
I'm just wondering when the military will start bombing Enron, Worldcom, Imclone, and Martha Stwart's corporate headquarters. These companies have now managed to do more damage to the economy than the terrorist attacks.
-Hank
I'm just wondering when the military will start bombing Enron, Worldcom, Imclone, and Martha Stwart's corporate headquarters. These companies have now managed to do more damage to the economy than the terrorist attacks.
Heh heh, that's a good one.
There's another villian to consider - as I've said on another forum, the damage to New York's economy caused by 9/11 is a small fraction of the damage caused by 1199.
Neither are the vast majority of Republicans. In fact, most of us are pro-choice, social moderates and fiscal conservatives. In addition, we want good schools, safe neighborhoods, and an end to poor kids getting ripped off my subpar schools.
Rich people will never represent poor people, no matter how hard they try.
The problem is that you have to be rich to be a big politician nowadays, or be supported by rich people. This is nothing more than a plutocracy.
While I believe in free reign for money and business, I believe that it should be separated from politics. There should not only be a separation of Church and State but also a separation of Bank and State.
All elections should be government funded, all political contributions (a euphemism for bribery) should be banned.
Pigs, Ralph Nader among others, would agree with you.
>>> Ralph Nader among others, would agree with you <<<
So would Joe Stalin.
Tom
Last time I checked, Joe Stalin was pushing up daisies...
Last time I checked, Joe Stalin was pushing up daisies...
Actually, this is not so. The Daisies REFUSED to grow there.
: ) Elias
Well, actually the daisies formed a committee and created a five year plan which resulted in a putsch. The daisies were then shipped off to Siberia to reconsider their political centerings.
Just remember, a liberal is much more likely to improve public transit than a conservative. Liberals don't have to be concerned about oil companies donating to their party. Liberals don't have to try to use as much oil as possible in this country. Liberals are concerned about the environment, and public transit is environmentally friendly. Liberals are more likely to spend the billions necessary for transit projects.
Mostly true. Conservatives will be big supporters of transit projects, however, if they see them as being important to business. That's likely the case in New York.
But conservatives are too absorbed with giving tax cuts that nobody wants instead of allocating billions toward transit projects.
The problem is that nobody in New York will elect a conservative. Bloomberg is a Democrat disguised as a Republican and Giuliani was the last of the Rockefeller Republicans.
As a result, the Democrats do jack squat because they take the city for granted, and the Republicans do likewise because the city is a lost cause. I think you said that before.
Why should the Democrats take the city for granted- Heck, the Republicans elected the last two mayors. If they are smart, they will develop some bench depth for the future.
New York City went republican the last two outings because of this critter called "JUDY HOPE" who kept putting her puppet, one "Mark Green" up again and again. The dems have FINALLY gotten the clue. Whoops, strike that - Judy Hope is now behind Andy Cuomo. :)
No, Judy Hope has finally gotten a clue.
Beg to differ, she's the hand behind the new puppet. You'd think we'd already had enough of offspring of bad politicos. :)
Oh come on Selkirk, ole Mark Green will surface again---just like a bad cold. It is kind of nice that the greatest and largest city in the country has a Republican Mayor, but I want to finaly depart from the political tack and get back down to subway matters. I have a few questions to ask that I know little about since I'm three thousand miles away on the left coast. Here goes.
1. Any idea when the #1 train will be getting back to South Ferry and when the #3 will be re-routed to New Lots.
2. I hear all this talk about a 2nd Avenue Subway, but is their anything in the works right about now?
3. What's the status with the lines that are supposed to be heading to Coney Island but are not because of the work on Stillwell Avenue?
4. Why is it that we never hear about a 1st Avenue Subway. Doesn't First Avenue have any need for one?
Thanks to those who try to answer my queries.
I'll take a stab
1. Any idea when the #1 train will be getting back to South Ferry and when the #3 will be re-routed to New Lots.
The work is progressing on the new tunnel. Things should be back to normal in the fall. Just pray they come to their sense and NEVER bring back the 9 train and skip stop.
2. I hear all this talk about a 2nd Avenue Subway, but is their anything in the works right about now?
It is funded in the current capital budget and is probably closer than any time since they shut down construction in the 70's. Not dirt has been moved yet. They are still debating over the actual route in lower Manhattan. Either to build a new tunnel under Water Street or tie in to the Nassau Street Line.
3. What's the status with the lines that are supposed to be heading to Coney Island but are not because of the work on Stillwell Avenue?
Only the N is cut now (sorry about that). The F and Q will be cut in September. They short turn and I think there will be some bus service added.
4. Why is it that we never hear about a 1st Avenue Subway. Doesn't First Avenue have any need for one?
First Ave is not a bad alternative, but they have already done some work on Second, so . There is no way to justify both a 1st Ave and a 2nd Ave line. First is a little less developed than first, but with some of the new projects they are planning for the old Con Ed complex on First south of the UN, that is slowly changing.
1st Ave really makes a lot more sense. From Canal to 23rd and from 50th to 90th there is a lot of Manhattan east of 1st Ave/Allen St. (there is 0.75 mi. of Manhattan east of 1st Ave between Houston and 14th), while no one who lives between 1st and Lex is more than 0.2 mi from one or the other. You minbimze total walking distance by putting it on 1st Ave.
I think there was some kind of politics behind the decision in the 60s to go with 2nd Ave. Some very left wing groups were calling for 1st Ave because it better served the then very poor neighborhoods of Alphabet City. Perhaps the city establishment didn't want them to win on this issue. Of course, in the end, nobody won.
Looking at it another way, you do get more offloading of the Lex by putting it on 2nd Ave. If you put it on 2nd Ave, everyone who lives in one of the many high rises on 3rd Ave will be likely to use the 2nd Ave subway because it's less crowded, while if you put the subway on 1st Ave, they'll stick with Lex. The folks further east are a captive audience and so you might as well just make them walk an extra block. Again, back in the 60s the area east of Second Ave wasn't very influential. Even on the Upper east side it was mostly working class.
I've already mentioned about Giuliani and Bloomberg.
Giuliani is the last of the Rockefeller Republicans and New York's once-a-generation Republican mayor.
Bloomberg is a Republican out of utility only.
One more thought regarding liberal vs. conservative transit support:
I suspect that the Christian Right is going to become more pro-transit. Why? Well, they've become the most pro-Israel group in the country - even more so than Jews, who by and large won't hesitate to criticize Israeli policies when appropriate. As strong supporters of Israel, the Christians have a vested interest in reducing America's dependence on imported oil, much of which comes from Arab or other Islamic countries. Hence, they've got a good reason to support better transit.
But often instead of supporting programs like that, which might use some of their precious tax dollars, they would rather destroy our arctic wilderness by drilling for enough oil to satisfy us for a few months.
You got that right...
We agree on that one Doug. Some of my fellow travelers are too eager to rape the natural beauty of our environment for the sake of a bunch of dollars. But the other side doesn't want nuclear power, they don't want solar power, they don't want electrical power, and they don't want coal power. What the hell to they want us to do? Walk? Ride bicycles?, scooters? There has to be a solution for our energy problems and mass public transit could be the answer. It could create hundreds of thousands of jobs and help alleviate our need for that stinking Arab oil.
[they don't want solar power, they don't want electrical power.]
I never heard that they turned down those two....where did you hear that?
Solar Power does polute... To have enough collectors to replace a coal plant, you would have to cover half of the state of Nebraska to do it.
And have you ever tried to get a new electric transmission line installed out here. Oh NO!!!! the cows will start giving green milk, and the calves will be born with two heads!
Doesn't Matter how you build energy resources, SOMEBODY IS GOING TO COMPLAIN!
For the moment, Coal, Gas, Oil, and Nuclear are the most efficient.
So when somebody wants to work with energy policy, you by definition HAVE TO WORK WITH AND UNDERSTAND THESE GUYS! (Oh No, Mr. Bill... He's in bed with the energy interests again!)
Look, if you don't like the energy policy, sell the car, and disconnect the power lines from your house. If you will not do that, then *YOU* are in bed with the energy interests too!
You cannot power your car with conservation! Only Gasoline will make it go.
Elias
There is a huge problem with solar collector technology as it exists right now. Silicon-based solar collectors are most responsive to ultraviolet light. This is not good, because although sunlight has enough UV to give you sunburns and skin cancer, most of the sunlight that hits the ground is in the visible range. So current solar collectors harvest only a tiny fraction of the energy that hits them, and the rest is wasted. The development of photoresponsive materials that are sensitive in the visible range is an obstacle that has to be overcome before we can have a solar power plant that doesn't cover half of Nebraska.
Mark
What's the big deal with covering up one of those square states? Turn all of Nebraska, Iowa, and western Texas into a giant solar collector. No more complaints about tornado damage and flooding.
-Hank
Maybe Nevada would be better. We need Nebraska and Iowa to grow food. I figure it's better to cover Nevada with solar collectors than to turn the whole state into a nuclear waste repository.
Of course, I'd love to hear the opinions of any Nevadans who might be reading...
Mark
I figure it's better to cover Nevada with solar collectors
What makes you thing that such power will get out of Nevada.
They will burn it *ALL* in Las Vegas!
Hhehehehehe.........
Elias
"You cannot power your car with conservation! Only Gasoline will make it go."
Yes, but with appropriate changes, we could all go to the same places we get now, in the same amount of time, using half as much gas.
But if you do not have any Gas... you are not going anywhere!
Running out of oil... out of petrochemicals... will be the end of human civilization as we know it. [PERIOD].
You can get all of the nenrgy from nuclear that you need, but without petrochemical, there will be no plastics, no pharmasuticals, no synthetic fibers, no nylon, not even any condoms!
Conservation is vastly important, RIGHT NOW, but by it self it only puts off the day of reconning, it does not answer the issues.
Proble is, if everyone has a seat at the table, all they will ever do is talk about it.
Elias
Running out of oil... out of petrochemicals... will be the end of human civilization as we know it. [PERIOD].
This is centuries off. By that time, there will not only be nuclear, there will also be fusion and solar power. Petroleum is not necessary for plastics. The first plastics were made using plant matter. Recycling, and more advanced molecular manipulation will allow the development of carbon polymers from other sources.
And nanotechnology isn't that far off, that should make it possible to manipulate things on the molecular level, like turning lumps of coal into diamonds.
For the moment, Coal, Gas, Oil, and Nuclear are the most efficient.
Coal is dirty and has the worst kind of pollution, there shouldn't be any new coal plants built.
The best kinds of power plants are gas, nuclear and oil, in that order.
Oil would be better if a certain part of the world wasn't rich with it.
Alternative fuels for gasoline already exist. You can manufacture something called Bio-Diesel by using plant oils. The HempCar ran on hemp oils last summer and they toured the continent with it. It can go directly into any diesel engine without any specific modifications. Its extremely clean, and very renewable. It would make the Agriculture business extremely successful.
Pete, you must have had SBF in mind when you said that. I am so pro-transit that it is almost beyond the pale, and as far as this Christian is concerned Israel is just about completely in the right because I know the Palestinians want to wipe that country off the map despite what some "moderates" in the PLO say. I don't believe a word they say and never have. If there is such a thing as a Christian Zionist, your reading him right now.
[Bush carried the Panhandle areas]
It's interesting to note that that area happens to be heavily populated by what we Northerners might catagorize as "trailer park trash" and "Redneck Hillbillies."
LOL!!
LOL eh? I guess it is ok with you to think that term "trailer trash" is permissible? Bull$%^&$ it is. It is name calling and denigrating a certain class of people and you have no damn business doing it---if that was your intention.
I'm not busting on anyone, and i am not calling people names. I am merely expressing personal amusement with BMTman's post.
OK! Well I've calmed down a little myself and must admit that while I don't use or like the term, a little smirk comes on my face when I hear that term. I guess that makes me a little bit of a phony myself.
You can call them that. I call them American voters who were depprived from doing so because of a premature call on the part of some biased newscasters. You know they have names for some of you people in New York, and I do not permit anyone to denigrate them and shut them up quickly, and I don't think it is ok for you to call them trailer trash either. Name calling sucks and from what I know of you I think you are too big for that kind of crap.
Uh, but Fred, you yourself has -- albeit in the past -- used derogatory terms for and/or name called people here at SubTalk...if I wasn't gainfully employed I'd spend my free time going through the archives to dig them up for you...
Individual people yes, but whole groups? I don't think so, at least until what has happened in the Middle East to turn me totally against the Palestinians. Yes, I attacked and got mine back some time ago when I got into it with some of my Bronx colleagues, but to denigrate a whole group? Well, if I ever did you would have good reason to take me to task.
Well, I do remember you referring to Italians as "dagos" on numerous occasions. Despite being an Italian, i don't take offense to it, but its still name calling to a whole group.
Fred is also of Italian Descent.
I call them American voters who were depprived from doing so because of a premature call on the part of some biased newscasters.
How were they deprived of voting? The liberal newscasters didn't close the polls. If they didn't want to be sheep and worship the almighty cathode ray tube, they could have still gone out and voted.
They were stupid for waiting until 8PM CST to vote. What if someone going out to vote got stuck in traffic for an hour when they had 13 hours before? Would they then be deprived of the right to vote?
Touche!
For some stupid reason which I cannot fathom you libs just can;t seem to get it in your heads that those newscasters did have a bias and should never have called ANY STATE until the polls had closed. What is it about that that you cannot understand?
For some stupid reason which I cannot fathom you libs...
Don't call me a liberal. You only pay attention when I bash the religious right or big oil and not when I call for banning welfare, privatizing everything and so on.
just can;t seem to get it in your heads that those newscasters did have a bias and should never have called ANY STATE until the polls had closed.
I don't disagree that the newscasters have a liberal bias and shouldn't call a state before the polls are closed there (in fact, I don't think elections should be called until ALL polls NATIONWIDE are closed, even in Alaska and Hawaii).
What is it about that that you cannot understand?
My argument with you wasn't about whether calling the election when they did was right or wrong, here your selective memory comes into play. All I'm debating is that the people who did not vote as a result of what they saw on TV were not deprived of the right to vote then or for the 13 previous hours that the polls were open. In fact, people that stupid, regardless of whom they want to vote for deserve what they get for their stupidity.
They still got their candidate elected (I still contend that the amount of people turned away from the polls by miscall was NEGLIGIBLE). The fair thing to do would be to disenfranchise Florida COMPLETELY. Bush would have been elected by the House and Floridians would get what they deserve (all 25 electoral votes dismissed).
OK, that explanation is easier to fathom because it makes more sense. At least you presented both sides of the argument. Hopefully next time the newsmen will wait until a state's polling places close before making any projections.
Welcome to America....
EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is biased to a certain degree.
If these "deprived voters" had any modicum of "personal responsibility" they would have thumbed their noses at the "liberal media" and voted ANYWAY. Why do I suspect that the only people that stayed home would have been "democraps?" After all, REPUBLICANS aren't swayed by the pansy media, right?
>>> Northerners might catagorize as ... "Redneck Hillbillies." <<<
Rednecks and Hillbillies are two distinct groups. Given the elevation of Florida, one does not find Hillbillies there.
Tom
True, but the 'Hillbilly' part of the title refers to a specific mentality...not the actual distinct classification of peoples of the Ozarks...
Thanks for picking that up...
That pretty much describes the populations of most of the states that went for Bush. Throw in some wealthy Enron tycoons and right-wing religious fanatics for good measure.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Its nice to see that we have quite a few liberals on the board :-D
Oh, come on Dave, cut the crap. You've been in the Chicago Democratic hack machine too long. I don't think Ohio falls into that category, and neither does Missouri, Kentucky, Kansas, Alaska, or Colorado. They all went for Bush. On the other hand, some of the liberal hand out states did go for Gore who, as I get the impression, isn;t even held by his fellow Dems with much affection anymore.
Fred the states that went for Bush were characterised by two contradictory trends--public propaganda againast 'gummint handouts' and actual greater Federal expenditure than IRS proceeds--de facto hypocrites. The states which went for Gore were generally the more economicly productive areas of the US whose taxes go to support the rural, less well developed parts.
You mean the parts with all the farmland from which we get most of our food?
-Hank
Bullshit. Massachusetts is an overtax and underdeveloped economic state where things have been going downhill since Dukakis. New Jersey? Their infrastructure and schools are a disgrace, and what needs to be said about Rhode Island without wanting to throw up? Save that liberal propaganda for those who swallow it. Sorry Dave, you aren;t going to pass that crap off on me.
.
The whole thread was political, anyway. However the eariler postings dealing with police response to photography of critical infrastructure should be of great concern to all ralifans.
True.
Peace,
ANDEE
.
Jersey and Rhode Island are two of the wealthiest states per capita in the country.
Jersey and Rhode Island are two of the wealthiest states per capita in the country.
Ok.... but what state has the most *cars* per capita in the country????
: )
Why, California, of course!
Why, California, of course!
Nope!
Not even close!
Try North Dakota!
1) With low insurance costs, nobody pulls the plates off for in insurance refund just because they will not use the car for several months.
2) Since salt is not used on the roads, cars can last almost forever, and so a farmer might have three or four licensed cars, trucks, and pickups on his place. We only took a 1958 pick-up truck out of service this last year.
3) Every kid has to drive, there ain't nohow else to get around. It is not unusual for a family to have two, three or more cars.
4) And of course, nobody ever steals them out here.
: ) Elias
In SOUTH Dakota, the driving age is 14 years too high, while in North Dakota, it's still 16 years too high like in the rest of the country.
If they don't use salt on the roads, what do they use? And why is salt not used?
Thanks
With hard pack and ice, often plain SAND is the best. They do that up here too. Only on the majors roads do you see a bunch of salt.
Nonsense. Even moderate pundits said that there were about 150,000 people that didn't vote in the Panhandle after the state was called. Bush carried that region by almost two-thirds. You mean to say that those who didn't vote because of the call were equally divided between Gore and Bush. That's bullshit pure and simple.
Any registered voter that sits glued to a TV all day, then decides not to vote based on projected trends, is an idiot. There are always myriad races and issues or propositions in addition to the Presidential race. As a U.S. citizen, I consider voting (and jury service) a sacred duty. In the future, I think the media should refrain from election coverage until ALL the polls in the country are closed. At the very least, projecting races based on scant data should be forbidden.
Once upon a time, when I still lived on Long Island, I was consistantly one of the FIRST to vote in my district....
OK it's true, I had to catch a 6:06 train... : )
In all my years as a voter (there) I always signed the register with the same fountain pen, with brown ink in it.
Out here there is no voter's register to sign... the pole wardens (or whatever you call them) write your name for you in thier book, one book kept by the Repblicans, and another by the Democrats. Gotta Keep things honest.
BTW: We are the only state that does NOT have motor-voter registration, or any other sort of registration drives of any kind.
BECAUSE WE NEVER HAD VOTER REGISTRATION in the first place!
You show up at the pole, and you vote. They write you name in the book as having voted. (Boy would Mayor Daly -the Elder- have had a field day!)
: ) Elias
No voter registration? Could that be true? In this state (California), hundreds of thousands of illegals could flood the polls!
In Chicago, hundreds of thousands of dead people could flood the polls! Oh wait, that already happens.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You should know Dave. Chi has one of the worst reputations for that sort of crap, and Daley the First was a champion of filthy manure at election time. On the other hand, I have to hand it to you. Your city is about the friendliest city I have ever visited. I thought it was a put on but everywhere I went I saw warmth, hospitality and friendship. I wonder why. Big cities are not noted for such behavior.
>>> In Chicago, hundreds of thousands of dead people could flood the polls <<<
Wasn't the Chicago Democratic machine slogan "Vote early, vote often!!" ? :-)
Here in Los Angeles, the parties provide precinct workers to help turn out the vote by driving voters to the polls. In Chicago they use them to drive voters to the polls, then to next precinct polls, then the next precinct polls, etc. BTW, in one election when I was a precinct worker, I came across a motel which rented rooms by the hour, but had 30 registered voters.
Now that the requirements for absentee ballots have been relaxed so much, it is no longer necessary to go to so much physical effort to stuff the ballot boxes.
Tom
Who says they don't? There have been repeated accusations of voter fraud in some of the heavily immigrant areas of our state.
George: Bingo! Thanks for your post. I couldn't disagree with it even if I wanted to.
["The incident has left Madeira shaken and with a touch of insomnia. He's also still plenty angry."]
Wait while I go get my violin.
Its kind of obvious to me that there is alot in that article that is missing. The article is very one sided which is obvious as the only people interviewed are the 2 guys' lawyers who are probably going to sue for millions and settle for thousands. The article stated that the 2 cops came over, interviewed them, left and then came back with reinforcements. I'm willing to bet they also told them they have to stop photographing (which they have a right under exigent circumstance even if it IS normally legal) and only came back to arrest them when they ignored the order and continued taking pictures. To call them scum as some posters have done here just shows that the posters are the real scum. Do any of you read the papers about the extra security this past week. And two weeks ago the FBI issued warnings that the next attack might be by a fuel truck crashing into a bldg. (Get the connection-oil refinery!!!???)
I sure hope that the likes of John Blair, Peter Rosa, and FDNY Chris don't need a cop in the future, but maybe if they do they might change their opinions.
Well said.
I suppose a part of the anger and lack of judgment of some posters is picturing themselves being posted while photographing a redbird, and this could happen.
But a lot of people have taken off on these officers knowing absolutely nothing but the self-serving statements of the alleged "victims."
I want to know what was said in the initial confrontation that gave the police the impression (right or wrong) that it was necessary to call in extra force. We hear nothing of this--the police can't say anything because this is sure to lead to a lawsuit, so all we hear is from the detainees and their representatives.
Reporting one side of an issue is not the heart of journalism.
But a lot of people have taken off on these officers knowing absolutely nothing but the self-serving statements of the alleged "victims."
I want to know what was said in the initial confrontation that gave the police the impression (right or wrong) that it was necessary to call in extra force. We hear nothing of this--the police can't say anything because this is sure to lead to a lawsuit, so all we hear is from the detainees and their representatives.
Reporting one side of an issue is not the heart of journalism.
I agree that in theory there are two sides to every story, but in this case it seems exceedingly unlikely that there was anything that could have merited the police overreaction except, of course, paranoia.
You seem utterly unconcerned with the consequences of this incident on the two sides. The innocent photographers will have to spend the rest of their lives living with the humiliation and fear that they experienced. They were cruelly brutalized - no calls for FOUR HOURS!! - and people don't recover from things like that anytime soon. And let's not forget that their reputations are totally trashed. Sure, they might eventually get some money, but it won't make up for what they experienced.
Now the paranoid cops? Nothing will happen to them, nothing whatsoever. Even if the two men get a huge judgment, it'll be paid by the city's taxpayers, not the cops personally. About the only bad thing they'll conceiveably face is a reprimand or somesuch in their files. Big deal.
>>> The innocent photographers will have to spend the rest of their lives living with the humiliation and fear that they experienced. They were cruelly brutalized - no calls for FOUR HOURS!! <<<
LOL!! I hope you were being sarcastic. As someone who has spent a few hours cooling his heels in East Berlin while the Vopos went over my passport very carefully before they allowed me to return to the West, and spent a couple of nights in U.S. jails (no convictions), I have to laugh at the idea that they were humiliated or experienced fear that would scar them for life.
Tom
Vopos -- That is EXACTLY what we are trying to prevent in America.
>>> Vopos -- That is EXACTLY what we are trying to prevent in America. <<<
Actually there seems to be something frightening about German policemen, even in West Germany. As a foreigner living in Germany, I was called into the local police station to update my residence visa. There was just something unnerving about going there (it was located in the basement of an old building with small windows high on the walls to allow in light, but in my imagination to muffle the screams in the back). I was interviewed by a police officer who was really quite pleasant, but when I sat down at his desk he went to a file cabinet and pulled out a two inch thick dossier on me, read a bit and then looked up at me and went back to reading. He determined I was still living at the same address and stamped a new visa in my passport. It was nothing but a routine contact, but for some reason I was extremely happy to get back to the street when it was over. To me the three scariest words spoken by a policeman in either East or West Germany were "Ihre Papiere, bitte!" (Your papers, please), which never sounded like a polite request.
Tom
As someone who has spent a few hours cooling his heels in East Berlin while the Vopos went over my passport very carefully before they allowed me to return to the West, and spent a couple of nights in U.S. jails (no convictions), I have to laugh at the idea that they were humiliated or experienced fear that would scar them for life.
Treatment like that was predictable in the former East Germany. We're now talking about the United States, however, not a totalitarian regime. Mistreatment here is a different matter, one that can easily destroy a person's faith in democracy and freedom. That's certainly going to be more traumatic than mistreatment in a place like East Germany.
I don't know enough about your experiences is U.S. jails to comment.
They were cruelly brutalized - no calls for FOUR HOURS!!
Four whole hours. Wow.
Last September you were considering whether people who sold stock in the wake of the attacks should be executed for treason.
I guess we all have our priorities.
They were cruelly brutalized - no calls for FOUR HOURS!!
Four whole hours. Wow.
It's not just the time involved. Try to think of what these men went through. They were held incommunicado, unable to let their family members or anyone else know what was happening, and not knowing whether they'd be charged with serious crimes. Had they been arrested for felonies they would have merited better treatment. I don't care what anyone else may think, that was brutal treatment, all for doing something harmless and LEGAL.
By the way, don't think to yourself "Big deal, I'd never bother with photos of oil refineries, this couldn't happen to me." It's not hard to imagine that people taking rail photos could end up being treated the same way.
Last September you were considering whether people who sold stock in the wake of the attacks should be executed for treason.
I guess we all have our priorities.
For Christ's sakes, that was not a serious suggestion! I was simply expressing my utter disgust at the total lack of faith that investors were showing the the American economy and way of life.
For Christ's sakes, that was not a serious suggestion!
I guess investors can all breathe easier now.
>>> that was not a serious suggestion <<<
Certainly glad to hear that. But at the time you seemed serious.
Tom
Do any of you read the papers about the extra security this past week. And two weeks ago the FBI issued warnings that the next attack might be by a fuel truck crashing into a bldg. (Get the connection-oil refinery!!!???)
I'd say there's about a one-in-a-quadrillion chance of that fuel truck attack ever happening. It's all scaremongering ("Oh no, the towel heads are going to attack us!!!")
And what exactly would you have rated the chances of twenty foreigners, most from "friendly" nations, infiltrating the U.S. and eventually hijacking four civilian aircraft, all on the same day, and crashing them into The World Trade Center, the Pentagon and maybe the White House, all on the same day, during peacetime?
One in a quadrillion? One in a kazillion? What does you network say?
Oh please, people just want to worry. I am convinced that September 11th was a totally one-of-a-kind thing, and that al-Qaeda has been pretty much destroyed. There's no point getting all paranoid.
Hey, if you want odds, I can say that there's a 100% chance that we'll all be stinking up a coffin someday soon.
I can say that there's a 100% chance that we'll all be stinking up a coffin someday soon.
No, because some people will be cremated.
"I'd say there's about a one-in-a-quadrillion chance of that fuel truck attack ever happening. It's all scaremongering ("Oh no, the towel heads are going to attack us!!!")"
Umm, you DID see in the papers that someone actually attempted such an attack in Israel, and actually succeeded in setting at least one tanker truck ablaze at a tanker farm?! A big KABOOM! the likes of the Black Tom incident of 1918 or Texas City in 1947 was prevented only because workers put out the fire IMMEDIATELY and (IIRC) a guard shot the saboteur before he could set more trucks on fire.
You're giving good examples from history, John. But some people don't learn from history, even history that's less than a year old.
Your point is very well stated. I must admit, I very often seek to place blame on police. I believe in the post 9/11 world I have come to see both sides of the story. VERY VERY often, I see police officers defuse situations that otherwise could have gotten out of hand in an extremely professional manner. In fact, even I will admit, the vast majority of times I witnessed such encounters, the police have handled themselves and the situation in a terrific manner. And they do this day in and day out with little thanks.
I guess my problems comes from the fact that it at least seems like when the bad cops swing into action (again, I acknowledge the percentage is very very low, but not infentesimal) they do seem to get away with what ever egerous actions they undertake. I refer to the Dialo and Louima cases. I truely cannot buy that not a single criminal act was commited when 4 cops fired over 40 shots at an unarmed man. I might even be able to buy that the cops felt they were in danger (MIGHT), and if they fired a few rounds each; I might be able to accept that. But over 40 shots????? I am not saying they should have been hit with murder 2, but surely some crime was commited by firing so many times.
I do wish to extend my thanks to the police, fire and all emergencies workers on this board. You do a great job.
But over 40 shots????? I am not saying they should have been hit with murder 2, but surely some crime was commited by firing so many times. "
Correct, some of them even had to stop and reload, did they not?
Very bad proceedure, even if they did panic and make a mistake at first.
Elias
Yes,
I believe 1 of the cops did take the time to reload his weapon. In that interval, it seem he should have been able to assess the situation.
True, there are two sides to everything.. However in some ways this is a case of "there but by the grace of God, go I". I can see myself being in a situation where I am photographing a train or RR yard (from a legal vantage point) and objecting to being told it is illegal when I clearly know that there is no statute prohibiting it. I would probably demand that the officer cite the municipal code section, etc that stated that photography was not allowed from the specific location I was at. Then I could possibly get into the same hot water these photographers got into. I tend to question everything - I almost never obey blindly.
The officer would be within his rights to interview you and perform a warrants/ID check. A reputable citizen, as these two persons apparently were should have been free to go within a few minutes. but they were held for four hours against their will. They should now be able to retire. Freedom is what bin Scum and his crew wants to destroy. Some cops in Philly are helping make it happen.
I honestly don't know about the United States but in Canada you have to lay a charge when you arrest someone (even a citizen's arrest) unless the person(s) are actually engaged in committing a crime or fleeing from one committed right before. If this took place in Canada, the arrest of these photographers would not have been legal (although they do like to bend rules in Toronto quite a bit), no crime being involved, and the police officers involved could concievebly be charged with a couple offences mainly regarding unlawful detainment etc.. On the other hand, it may be legal in the United States to actually arrest someone without the commission of any crime or any charges laid at the time in order to lay charges (or not) at a later point in time.
-Robert King
>>> On the other hand, it may be legal in the United States to actually arrest someone without the commission of any crime or any charges laid at the time in order to lay charges (or not) at a later point in time. <<<
U.S. law is similar to Canadian law, but court decisions have allowed "reasonable detention" to determine if a crime has been committed. Originally that meant that a police officer could detain you at the scene if for instance you are walking along and someone a block away is yelling "Stop thief!"until he can determine if the person is accusing you and there really was a theft, or if a crime victim gives a description that matches you, you may be detained to go back to the crime scene to see if you are the perpetrator. Now it has been stretched to taking someone to the police station (in handcuffs for officer safety), and as long as they are not formally "arrested" i.e. charged with a crime and not allowed to leave, it is considered an allowable "detention." (This leads to the B-movie line "O.K. copper, either charge me or I'm walking out of here.")
Tom
It just clicked, where I've seen something similar before - I should visit Toronto Image Works, buy that HUGE photograph they have of an oil refinery at night since it's been rotated off display and send it to the Philadelphia police's headquarters. That would fix the losers.
-Robert King
Why were they arrested for photographing the refinery for the first place? I guess that you are not supposed to photograph certain refineries.
I would assume that they were doing something similar to railfanning. Something seen from the outside as queer, odd, and perhaps conferring something upon the person or persons partaking in it, generally, to those opn the outside, this connotation is negative. And while to a railfan, the Golden Fleece may be a steam special, or old alco set pounding away at a hill in some scenic setting, to a photographer, an industrial plant, particularly such an exposed plant as an Oil Refinery, hold photographic gems. The contrasts of the pipes, seemingly a maze of metal, winding from one tube to another tank, is the Golden Fleece. I guess you could call it Industyfanning, or perhaps UrbanFanning, but that plant will never get up and move to a more convienient location to be shot, you can never arrange an excursion for an oil refinery, and as such you must come to it, and meet it on it's turf, where it lives.
Ever since reading online about power generation and power transmission, I have been facinated by powerlines, the different styles, why they all have either 3 or 6 lines, and so on. I have actually come to the point of following the ones nearest my house. Does this mean that now I am gonna go check out Salem or Oyster Creek nuclear power plants, NO, I am gonna use common sense and stay away from such an obvious security threat. I think I won't even go to Deepwater or Somers Point coal plants, I know that the Govn't would not like me taking pictures of such an obvious target, and as such, by taking such pictures all I am doing is tying up resources that could be used to actually watch for a possible attack.
Before I am hit with the Redneck, Zealot or other charge, let me get this straight, I HATE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION, ok, I hate Bush, I hate Cheney, and I hate whatisname, Arschecroft, but as the terrorists proved on 9/11, anything could be a weapon, and they certainly have proven that they hate us. Conspiracy theorists aside, (thus assuming that is was Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists aboard those airliners), they have shown a resolve against us, and the world does suck, that's life, get used to it, even if we go in and give them all they could ever want, there is nothing to stop them from turning right around and taking out the Sears Tower, just to spite us. There is no comradere between thieves, and there is most certainly no honor code for governments anymore. If we keep bombing away at random villages that may have fired at us, we are gonna incite the population against us, anyone remember, hmm, well, The Boston Massacre? The entire vietnam war? afganistan I from the russians POV? In all places we, or they (the russians) went in to make the government bend to their will, to increase their (the goverment's) stability. Boston - The crown needed to pay off war debts, raised taxes, people riot or assemble, (depending on how you like it), chaos ensues. Vietnam - we go in to keep the dominos from falling (threatens our stablity), propping up an unpopular democratic government, the people reject it with help of a neighbor, and we spend 7 years of bloodshed appologizing for our error. Afganistan I - the russians seek to secure their southern flank, perhaps gain an advantage in the event of WWIII in the Persian Gulf theater, invades the relatively primitive neighboring country of Afganistan, US comes to their aid, the russians now get to appologize for their error with a few years of bloodshed, and we come out on the side of the victors, and promptly leave, we basically defended them from the largest army in the world, but then forgot to create stablity in their world, we were fine, iraq, saudi arabia, all our friends in the middle east were safe, and besides, Iraq was becoming a pest, so we left, we left it worse than we got there. What happened, I think we all saw how much of a bond exists between nations on February 26, 1993, October 19, 2000, August 7, 1998, and most recently September 11 2001. Despite the fact that we liberated them from the russians, whom a majority opposed, they turned right around and attaked us through a variety of less than full warfare methods. Today we are attaking them with nearly the full brunt of our military, and have deposed a government that was, albeit arguably, more popular than the russians. If they can be convinced that the very country that provided them with the arms to defend themseves from a outside invasion is the Great Evil in the world, then what will they think after we blow up a few more houses,
My quite rambling point is that you can never be to careful. I forget who said it, but somebody once said, "Even paranoids have enemies," as the most visible, and argueably the most powerful country we undoubtedly have a few more enemies, open or secret, than any other countries. There are a lot of countries that see us as the pinnacle, whether we are or not I'll leave to others, however, we have become complacent at the top, and most certainly they are ready and willing to unseat the master, and as such, secure a century or two at the top. Depite the fact that we have virtually no colonies, no exterior possesions to speak of, we are the british empire at the end of the 1920s, tired of war, tired of the top, and worn by internal and external forces. And we all remember what a fun time the final comedown of the british, french, and other european empires was like? World War two and all, you gotta admit that the downfall of the british empire hold some striking similarities to the current situation, yes the british empire lasted much longer, but the US has endured, and indeed prospered in the 20th century, possibly the hardest of all to form and create a working republican government in, given the massive changes that occurred in society, manufacturing, and theology. Also lifespans have become much longer, enabling us to view what is wrong with the world, and then do something about it before kicking the bucket, if you live to be 40, and you are out of schooling at 20, you had better learn what's going on fast, but if you live to be 80, and again you get out of school and all at 20, you still have 60 years to do something about your government, thus change happens faster, since the society's collective memory becomes longer.
We now sit basically at a precipice, I would say that to continue up, we must abandon the old, and make an evolutionary leap over all the current countries that threaten our position, in rail this means maglev instead of HSR, in technology, robots not computers, and space not air travel. That last is quite important, since we are getting to the point where space must become and integral part of life, more so than just sticking a DSS dish on the roof and getting your 200 channels, but actually become part of life. The ISS is great, a stepping stone if you will, but we need something like the Apollo program again, preferably without the debts. The Chinese are planning moon landings by 2020, and while we are planning for mars by then, you really have to ask first if we can do it, and second, if we can justify it. Sure, now I've got those who have read so far scoffing at space travel, which really is too bad, just like the 1940s all over, "We'll never travel in space, it's too hard" remember that at maximum 17 years later we made it into space, and that 29 years later, a mere generation, we walked on the moon. We traveled 250,000 or so miles, achieved the greatest speed that has ever been achieved by a human being, and walked on our closest planetary neighbor. Space travel will one day be the railroad of the solar system, today we are the Richard Trevithicks, the pioneers of the interplantary trade routes, and we are the pioneers of the technology that will get us there, infact, suppose that Trevithick hasn't even been born yet, then we are the miners, using horses and donkeys to pull our loads, walking or talking stage coaches, that is where we sit now with space travel. Undoubtedly there were those who scoffed at the steam engine and railroads in the 1830s, but eventually it showed it's worth, and just as people now scoff at my pointing to the sky as the US's salvation, people proabably once scoffed at a similar promise from those who supported the railroads. Eventually the George Westinghouses will come, the Rudolf Diesels and Isambard Kingdom Bruneis will come and go, and space travel will have gained from them, but it will work, eventually, all it takes is the system that the first pioneers to the rail industry created for their sytems.
Now back to something resembling my point, which is, just use common sense, you need not taunt the government, and In 2 more years you'll have a chance to change it, I'm assumung you vote, so squeel away how your party and or candiate is not in power now, and in two years help me get him out of power. Life sucks, get used to it, and stupid stuff happens, such as police holding someone for taking pictures. And no matter how much bull happens, going out en masse to protest does not help, it just gets you on TV, all the better to be forgotten about, much better to save it, bottle all your outrage over this and let it out just before election day, to remind the voters what your opponent has done, if you vent it en route to election day, you have lost all that you once felt about it, and as such you lose, period.
Wow, first of all, really sorry for the really long, quite rambling post. Mr Pirmann, if you like, delete the message, it's quite long, rambling, and gets border line OT, no, wait, it's mostly OT, like most of this thread. But to readers who are about to try and read what I wrote, first off it was written at about 3 am ET, and I have been up for like 20 hours now. Second, if you skip the third (longest) paragraph, you acutally have a somewhat readable post that stays close to a theme, if not to the topic of the message board, although I like paragraph three, and think I made some good, if incomplete thoughts there.
Once again, sorry about the post, I was gonna trim it down, but just hit post, not preview.
Hope I don't waste too much time
and thanks
---
I would assume that they were doing something similar to railfanning. Something seen from the outside as queer, odd, and perhaps conferring something upon the person or persons partaking in it, generally, to those opn the outside, this connotation is negative. And while to a railfan, the Golden Fleece may be a steam special, or old alco set pounding away at a hill in some scenic setting, to a photographer, an industrial plant, particularly such an exposed plant as an Oil Refinery, hold photographic gems.
The contrasts of the pipes, seemingly a maze of metal, winding from one tube to another tank, is the Golden Fleece. I guess you could call it Industyfanning, or perhaps UrbanFanning, but that plant will never get up and move to a more convienient location to be shot, you can never arrange an excursion for an oil refinery, and as such you must come to it, and meet it on it's turf, where it lives.
---
The photography hobby is quite interesting. Chances are these two people saw the oil refinery during sunset and decided that the view was such that it merited photographing. Sunset and dusk and conversely sunrise are two of the most interesting times of the day to take pictures because of the particular quality of the light availible at that time and, to some degree, the angle at which it shines from. To put this in perspective for the railfans, I took a photograph at dusk of a PCC coming north to Bathurst from the waterfront posed in front of the long abandoned Canada Malting Company plant. After an all night fan trip, I had photographed the PCC on Queen St. outside the carhouse with the first pale light of morning broken by the first direct rays of sun brilliantly illuminating the side of the Eaton's tower all the way back downtown. Then, when we turned off Queen St. and headed down Connaught Ave. which was darkened by the tree canopy to enter the carhouse, I photographed the PCC again in the very gentle, blue twilight of the morning. I'll find the pictures and put them online later today.
---
Does this mean that now I am gonna go check out Salem or Oyster Creek nuclear power plants, NO, I am gonna use common sense and stay away from such an obvious security threat. I think I won't even go to Deepwater or Somers Point coal plants, I know that the Govn't would not like me taking pictures of such an obvious target, and as such, by taking such pictures all I am doing is tying up resources that could be used to actually watch for a possible attack.
---
Definitely a good course of action, particularly in the United States, particularly these days. I don't know how things were there before September 11, but up here Ontario Hydro used to run tours of the Bruce nuclear plants because they take great pride in their atomic power installations (this despite the fact that the nuclear division has been incompetently managed...resulting stranded debt...paid for by us in marked deregulation...) I've been through the grounds twice and through the operating Bruce B plant itself (including control rooms etc.) once. I haven't checked recently, but I'll bet they kicked out the tour group in there on September 11 and haven't hosted any since.
-Robert King
Wdobner's long post was rather interesting and worthwhile reading to some extent. Once in a while there is a long sort of drawn out postr that is worth reading. Wdobner's post was worthwhile reading in my opinion.
#3 West End Jeff
I was on 3559 today, on E line. Very interesting, as this car had the handles to turn side destination signs. Both ends of car were marked wrong-apparently someone out there was having a good time marking cars as F.
Why is this car equipped this way? Looks like hardware came from another series of cars(too big).
I've seen those. All the side signs used to have knobs and many of redbirds still do. I guess they never changed them to the ones that use the "key".
All of the Redbirds except the Corona fleet have them. (A few Corona cars may have them as well.)
R32's that still have the handles:
3480-3480 (previously CI on Sea Beach now on the E)
3542-3543 (previously CI on Sea Beach now on the E)
X (one more that belonged to the original Jamaica E fleet - it wasn't 3559, because it was not a mis-matched pair)
I was on one of the R-32 cars with those handles on the Q Local line, back in September or October when they ran on that line. As I recall, the signs were incorrect, and I fixed them. I don't remember the car numbers.
- Lyle Goldman
I remember 3559 quite well when I worked the E line. It is married to 3904. Car 3904 was o/s with severe damage for quite some time because it collided with a fallen street grating entering Lex/53rd one midnight. The T/O was injured. While 3904 was getting repaired in the main shop, 3559 had no partner so that car was cannibalised for parts. I would wager that the current sign box in 3559 came from an R27/30 rotting away in some yard. As for the F sign, I can explain that. Subway vibrations and worn out parts in the sign box causes the sign to move from one reading to another. I observed this myself. As far as CED is concerned, the sign box works properly and signs can be set correctly. They are not concerned about the sign moving by itself since they have a lack of spare parts. Replacement parts cost money. For a multi million dollar organization thay have lots of big ticket items, but the smaller ones they are very careless about. Take R42 #4570. For YEARS this car is missing a pin which locks in the adjustment for the t/o seat. The TA refuses to repair this. The bolts on all t/o seats should be checked each inspection to insure that it is securely anchored to the floor and all parts are functional.
I have heard that ALL 142/142a and 143s have been taken out of service until further notice due to the draw-bar failure incident on that Bombardier set of Wednesday.
With a good deal of the Redbird fleet sent to Davy Jones' Locker I am sure this will leave a line like the #2 without enough cars to cover rush-hour service...this is a most unsettling development...I'm sure they'll be more news to come on all this...
So, is the (6) <6> going to be shut down tomorrow morning? 5 (or less) R62A's is not enough to cover rush hour....
Read this...
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=352269
Since it's a Bombardier deal, I'm sure those guys at Platsburg will get an earful. If anything, only the Bombardiers will be pulled for inspection. Lets hope it's an isolated incident and only one guy fell asleep on one linkbar.
Yeah, I'd surmise that the R-142a sets will NOT be pulled, but I'd imagine their link-bars will be inspected as well (different vendor BUT remember it's the same specs).
Damn mess this'll make of the #2 and #5 lines outta Flabush Avenue (!!!)
Question: Where \ What are the link bars? Are they part of the Couplers?
No, Link bars are IN PLACE OF the couplers when two cars (units) or more are permanently or semi-permanently 'married'. This is not something you will find on single-unit cars (pre-R-33 series) which have Train Operator contorls on both ends (ie a 'double-ended' car).
The link bar is -- I believe -- a solid piece of metal...literally a bar that is physically connected to the "A" unit and has either a hole or pin that attachs to a hole or pin on the "B" unit. Also every two cars (or in some cases the fourth car) will have a coupler-unit to attach to another set of 'married units').
Hope this helps you out...
Thanks for the info :)
From what I saw, as I was leaving a R-46 (G) train at Smith/9th, the link bars between cars was a semi-solid piece of metal, but is most likely able to me physically seperated by blow-torching the ends under the anti-climbers [which are more "hollow" than the center mass]...if anyone should be able to see one, they'll know what I'm talkin' about...it's hard to decribe without a definitive picture to illustrate.
Actually, they aren't all that similar. They make look the same. but are differnt. I can find many differences. That part should be the same but still, the cars are very different. Ever seen the door control panels inside? Or the window assembly or the end door borders. And also, those doors to pass over from car to car suck on the R142. You can barely open them outside. The handles suck and you can't wrap your hands around it to open it. Not a good position to be in expecially if the train jerks.
Yes, there are SUBTLE differences between the R-142s and 143s. Looks like you pointed out the main items.
Just for the record, I jumped on a #2 out of Flatbush last night to go into Manhattan at around 10 pm. Guess what? The Bombardiers were IN SERVICE! So my source either got the info completely wrong, or the consist will be getting pulled and inspected on an individual basis (so as not to disrupt the 'flow' of service).
I was referring to the R142 and R142A (different vendor but same specs). I think it'll be done on an individual basis if it wasn't an isolated incident. There are too many birds gone to a whole withdrawal from service.
Looks like most, if not all of the equipment is still running. They'll have to evaluate the sets on an indiviual basis. The Redbird spare factor may prohibit them from pulling sets. Other than that, the 142s are operating as they always do.
-Stef
True, and the cars that were involved in the incident were 6700's if my facts are correct, so there could be a 'metal fatigue' factor behind the failure considered their time in the system (which ain't much but they were some of the first deliveries)...
I hope they don't have the same joint problems the LIRR Bi-levels have developed.
6401-05 is the set in question. Drawbar broke between Cars 6403-04.
They were performing oddball moves with this divorced set. 6404-05 were operating with the blind end as the front of the train and T/O was using 6496-6500 to push. It must be a joy to be a flagman in the dark (which is exactly what he was doing!).... I have incredible luck in seeing these things.
-Stef
A "blind T/O" ... whodathunkit!? :)
Well I gotta admit, I don't get to see a Train with someone's blind end leading the pack.
My god! What will they think of next?!?
-Stef
Why diesels equipped with canes, tapping on the third rail at 10 MPH. :)
Sounds like fun. Still if you're blind end is leading the pack you must be ass backwards. :)
I better go to sleep.
-Stef
Heh. And this would fail the S.O.P test HOW?
S.O.P?
-Stef
Standard
Operating
Procedure
Yeah, you whipped. Go sleepies, bro. :)
I rode R142's on the 2 both to and from work today and saw nothing but R142's on the 2 today. So they're there and they're still running.
Thats right!!! There was not one Redbird on the 2 line today. 100% R142..........
Really? I thought they still needed Redbirds for the weekdays. I guess they now have enough R142's to cover all service on the 2 and only use Redbirds as spares. But on Sunday night, June 23rd, I saw a Redbird 2 pull into Burke Avenue, in service. I thought that was unusual, because I was under the impression that the 2 is all R142 on weekends.
I haven't seen ANY Redbirds on the 2 Line for the past week or so...gone are the days of Redbirds holding down the deuce...:-( (sniff)
Bombardier R142s on the #2 and #5 lines come and go like the summer snow. When a trainset is pulled out of RTO service for a TT, a reliable Redbird is there for replacement. CI Peter
As of now the R-142a and R-142 are running just came back from riding them at Dyre Avenue, saw a couple of test trains at Jackson Avenue and Simpson Street, I saw a R142A with not in service sign flashing passing through Grand Central this train was in the 7400's series.The best part of my trip was I caught two Woodlawn redbirds uptown and downtown.
Uhm, this doesn't seem to me to be a factory problem, but a QC problem at final delivery. The cars are delivered one by one, not linked into five-car sets. This means the linking is done in the yard that the cars are delivered to. This could even have been an error by a transit worker.
-Hank
This could even have been an error by a transit worker.
Thus it could be a problem for any recelent delivered trainset, regardless of manufacture or division.
Elias
Error by Transit worker????? TA employees don't touch nuttin until AFTER delivery. WE find and FIX vendors errors. This isn't the Twilight Zone. 'Willoughby, this stop is Willoughby. Willoughby.'
That was my favorite episode.
I just got word that the trains are running for a person that rode one today, they probably pulled that train OOS and probably are doing periodic checks on trains coming into the yards at night!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
The R-142's are currently running.
I just went down to 86th Street on the 1/2 to check it out. First 6675-6674-6673-6672-6671-6480-6479-6478-6477-6476 pulled in on the southbound side. Then another R-142 trainset (I couldn't see the car numbers from where I was standing) pulled in on the northbound side. Otherwise, only R-62A's on the 1 and 3.
Well the R-143s are still in service on the L, not to mention additional burn testing is still going on with brand new 143s fresh from Kawasaki. And I see them in service on the L during the weekdays. Although I think they should get sidelined for a little because lately this little problem they have suffered with in the testing (pre-revenue service) phase, in which for no apparent reason the train will consistently go into emergency, not to mention as of late there have been problems with the doors on the trains sometimes not even opening, despite proper conductor operation of the door system. I will still continue to say the technology is too much too soon and lots of it is not ready to work in an environment like NYCT's 24/7/365. I think they need more test time before they consider getting any more trains and further work out these bugs the train suffers from.
I heard in regard to the R-142/142As, I hear they are suffering from brake problems, primarily wearing of the brakes.
YEP ! should have KEPT SOME REDBIRDS AROUND !!! ..............lol !
This has been a question which has been bugging me for quite a while.
Why, just why did the TA not suspend or cancel the Bombardier R142 contract when they began having major problems see- Brake problems, still incorrect announcements ( train is at times square and is announcing intervale ave.)shoddy build quality, etc. Why do they tolerate such bull when buying such expensive pieces of equipment? You wouldn't buy a new Ferrari ( or any car) if it had an incorrect spedometer, dents, and a botched paint job would you?? If something as severe as train seperation occurs this early in this car's life, what more can we expect, frames cracking??!! What puzzles me even more is that the TA is considering an Option order of these pieces of crap?!?! If the TA needs more trains, then purchase some more from Kawasaki , which can besides making solid cars, can deliver in a timely matter.
Any thoughts?
This has been a question which has been bugging me for quite a while.
Why, just why did the TA not suspend or cancel the Bombardier R142 contract when they began having major problems see- Brake problems, still incorrect announcements ( train is at times square and is announcing intervale ave.)shoddy build quality, etc. Why do they tolerate such bull when buying such expensive pieces of equipment? You wouldn't buy a new Ferrari ( or any car) if it had an incorrect spedometer, dents, and a botched paint job would you?? If something as severe as train seperation occurs this early in this car's life, what more can we expect, frames cracking??!! What puzzles me even more is that the TA is considering an Option order of these pieces of crap?!?! If the TA needs more trains, then purchase some more from Kawasaki , which can besides making solid cars, can deliver in a timely matter.
Any thoughts?
we saw yer post the first time
Ok, was just trying to keep it from getting buried..
the real reason is because when you are operating in a duopoly market, you need to keep the lesser competitor alive. if say bombardier goes bankrupt because kawasaki gets all the orders, then bombardier goes bankrupt, then kawasaki can charge whatever they like. so they just give bombardier enough order to crank on (starvation diet), while they give kawasaki all the beef, but if kawasaki starts being unreasonable then at least bombardier would still be aronud to beat them with a fish.
Is bombardier currently getting the Starvation diet?
Maybe they need to actually build a good product and compete. The Canadair RJ-50 is an excellent commuter aircraft and rock solid PROFF that Bombardier is capable of producing top quality products.
Bombardier is fully capable of producing quality, it is their American Assemply Plants that are having the problems. Don't know why they can't hire good help in NYS, Kawasaki seems to be able to.
Elias
Well, let's see how them ALP-46s for NJ Transit turn out...they were built over in Germany.
Also, it seems to be anything built in Plattsburgh is shoddy...Thundrer Bay and Barre, VT seem to have good products.
idk, jmho.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Coolie"
I believe the Bombardier cars were made in Quebec...
What the hell is "PROFF"? I don't think that's a word.
- Lyle Goldman
Search for "PROFF" in the subject lines in the archives. We all know yer a newbie :-) Welcome to Sbutalk.
AEM7
>l We all know yer a newbie
Actually, I've been here for several years. And the word is "PROOF," not "PROFF." Say what you mean!
We all know yer a newbie We all know yer a newbie We all know yer a newbie We all know yer a newbie - Lyle Goldman
Yes, too many newbies forgot that they are ones themselves. At the same time, remember we were all newbies before.
What happened to Rohr, the company that built the first generation DC Metro cars? It is my understanding that the cars are still doing well.
I realize that they might not be in business anymore, as DC just bought cars from another company. However, did the MTA ever look at Rohr in the past?
They had that one DOT/Rohr Test train thats now at seashore.
The SOAC? Really?
NYCT might have missed out on an opportunity to get some quality, innovative cars, by not contracting with them.
The SOACs were made by St. Louis Car, not Rohr. They're basically modified R-44 carbodies. One car had a subway seating configuration, the other had a commuter car seating configuration.
David
Same truck, differnet car body.
From page 283 of THE HISTORY OF THE ST. LOUIS CAR COMPANY by Andrew D. Young and Eugene F. Provenzano, Jr. (Howell-North Books, 1981):
"In 1972, two projects were underway. A design study was being undertaken jointly with General Electric, for a gas turbine-electric commuter car, and through a sub-contract from the Boeing-Vertol Comapny, two State-of-the-Art subway cars were being built, and were delivered on August 31, 1972. These cars were little different in overall appearance from the R44 cars, except for their front end, but their electrical and control equipment was more advanced."
David
A design study was being undertaken jointly with General Electric, for a gas turbine-electric commuter car ..
This eventually became the Garrett turbine cars on the LIRR, correct?
--Mark
I have no further details, but I'd imagine that yes, the design St. Louis Car was working on in 1972 became the GT-E. If memory serves, Budd won the contract for the cars, which looked an awful lot like M-1s but didn't last very long.
David
Can I assume Garrett refers to Garrett Co. gas turbine engines?
Yes...on the GT-E, those were Garrett gas turbine engines. According to the MTA's 1976 annual report, the train entered service on June 17 of that year, leaving Oyster Bay at 9:04 AM and running under gas turbine power to East Williston, then through Mineola and Jamaica to Penn Station on third rail power. The annual report states that the cars were built by General Electric, but the M-1s and M-2s were also "built" by General Electric, with the carbodies subcontracted to Budd. Meanwhile, the 1974 annual report indicates that four of the cars were built by GE, with the other four being built by Garrett. If anyone here saw the builder's plates, clarification would be appreciated!
David
What ever happened to those 8 cars. I know that there was a lot of problems with the retractable steps. They were nice cars just like the M-1's inside. I once caught them on the 6:14 PM from HP (the last train of the day from HP back then). It was a shame that the LIRR couldn't keep them and run them as an additional electric train.
My understanding is they were scrapped a few years ago. They didn't run very long.
David
They sat in Sunnyside for a while. I never knew what they were until someone from NY&A told me.
-Hank
Dual-power units long before the DM30's!
What did the GT-Es look like
Any pictures?????
They looked like M-1s but had retractable steps at the doors so they could stop at low-platform stations. I don't have any pictures to post, unfortunately.
David
SOAC prime contractor was Boeing. SLC was the sub contractor that made the carbody
Yes, the DC Metro Rohr cars are doing nicely, at the age of 25-26 years, with minor cosmetic modifications; I understand that some of them have had a general overhaul or are soon to get one. They still have their (very '70s) original interior schemes.
wayne
If subway manufacturing is a duopoly market, what do you call Alstom, Breda and CAF?
"what do you call Alstom, Breda and CAF? "
Losers?
Oh yeah, I forgot NYC is the only subway market in the world. If someone can't get an NYCT order, they might as well give up and go out of business.
NYCT can pick between at LEAST five different subway manufacturers in the world. Where AEM7 got that we had a duopoly market, who the hell knows.
The trick is all in the way the city orders them. THey send out specs, companies decide whether or not to bid. Lowest bidder wins. If only two companies want to bid...
These two companies also have the benefit of previously producing cars for the city.
-Hank
Lately, NYC subway car orders have not been low-bid. They've been negotiated procurements. Other than that, Hank's correct -- if you don't submit a bid, you can't win the contract.
David
In regards to the bidding process:
I've heard that the process has changed from the lowest bidder to the three lowest bidders. This is so that the TA could potentially pick quality over cost.
In regards to the number of car builders:
While Kawasaki, Bombardier, Alstom, Breda and CAF have really been the companies who built subway cars, anybody could really jump in and do it. Kawasaki is a heavy machinery company who just happens to include subway cars in their products. If they so desired, Hitachi could jump in the market.
In regards to why Kawasaki and Bombardier get so many car orders:
Could be the fact that they have plants in NY state.
>>> Could be the fact that they have plants in NY state. <<<
You have it backwards. They have plants in the State of New York because they got the contract.
Tom
Haven't they had those plants for some time now? I'm referring to recent contracts.
As LONG as they HAVE a plant in New York already, then they can play "Let's make a deal" ... the feds require railcars that get federal assistance to be vuilt in the USA, Bruno and Paturkey made it one better insisting that it be in New York State. Pity BOCES doesn't have *real* technical education any longer or it might have resulted in well built railcars.
Correct.
However, if I recall correctly, the first 300 R-62 series cars Kawasaki built were shipped completely finished straight from Japan. Later cars were shipped as kits and assembly was completed in the US, with some components supplied by US companies.
All 25 of them? (The R-62 order was a small one, of only 325 cars. The R-62's make up some but not all of the 4 fleet, and that's it. Their nearly identical twins on the 1, 3, 6, and 7 are Bombardier-built R-62A's.)
Alstom also has a plant in NY State - A rather large plant. They are operating out of the old Hornell, NY plant that MK used.
Right. They've been busy rebuilding the CTA's 2600-series cars there. I saw two 2600's on flatbed trucks headed back toward Chicago while I was driving to Philly last month. I have no idea what other projects the Hornell plant is working on right now.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually I'd Like to see the Talgo-Livingston Rebuild Center here in Montana gear up for subway/light rail/commuter rail car construction. Some people are betting on Amtrak high speed Midwest trains and their being built here. I'd say don't bet on it unless you want to lose. But all forms of urban-suburban rail transit are a going thing..I'd lke to see some built right here. {Former Northern Pacific backshops]
My feelings? As long as it is public money and not a company that has to answer to stockholdes, anything goes. Why after inconclusive testing were all theR44 delivered as they were [and cost fortunes to retrofit and cover problems]. With so much wrong with the R44 why did they have to place a whopper order for R46's? They reverted to proven stuff for the R62 nd it has been a success; so they had to reinvent the wheel again with more grief. NYCT alone? Why do nearly new Amtrak engines fail when the freight RR's locos, same technology, work.For example when the F40 were new on a trip to Seattle there was trouble...yet the SD40 coal power worked almost flawlessly. A friend of mine told me on an Amtrak trip last year 3 of 4 Genesis failed .But when thigs are new there shouldn't be SO MUCH wrong...of course they don't build em like they used to! [I said that when redbirds, etc were new too...haha]
It is the belif that newer is better. Also the more distant from the old something is the more people think it is better and sells better (or so execs think).
It is the belif that newer is better.
Is belif anything like "Proff."
belief
'Belif' is like 'Taco Bell.' 'Belif' is like one of my classmates whom I broke in and left for Jerome in the last pick and smacked carbody with a bug. 'Belif' is trusting the guy behind you. CI Peter
>>> Is belif anything like "Proff." <<<
Belif is all you have when you have no proff.
Tom
How many times have you noticed the incident of wrong announcements? I was on a R142 #2 at 42nd TSQ and the announcements worked fine.
The brakes (which do not squeal as much as I've noticed in the past) are normal.
If the R142 are technically similar to the MBTA 01800 fleet, then the wrong-announcements are only to be expected. From what I hear, the R142 sound like they have the same blueprint as the 01800's.
AEM7
Boston's Red Line cars also having problems with their canned announcements? Fortunately for the MBTA, each line is referred to only by color and is self-contained, like the L and the 7 here, and so Tremont Street will always be served by the Green Line and only the Green, Wonderland by the Blue Line and only the Blue, etc. But in New York's case, we had the B and D cut back to 34th St/Herald Sq and replaced by the W and the Q in Brooklyn. There's no more 9 train and the 2 is local. The Q train is back on Broadway (where it belongs!) and there's a W train there now. But if you listen to the canned voices, you would think that never happened if you didn't know better (and we here all do).
Funny thing, at Barnes & Noble, we sell Hagstrom subway maps - and they show subway service pre-7/22/01! A couple of Russian tourists were about to buy one and I told them that it was significantly out of date and that they should go across to the station at 66th & Broadway to get a current map for free. They did. People ask me where they can get "the 1 and the 9 trains". I tell them there is no 9 train, there's only the 1 train.
Boston's Red Line cars also having problems with their canned announcements?
Only the Red Line has canned announcements, apart from a few experimental Green Line cars that have been retro-fitted. The Red Line car does a few things:
(1) On leaving station X, it often announces "next stop is station X", followed a moment later by "next stop is station X+1" (correct).
(2) On leaving station X, sometimes it announces "next stop is station X-1" when the correct station is X+1. Then I panick and wonder if I had gotten on the wrong side.
(3) One time, when it really screwed up, it kept looping through all the stations on both branches without the "next station is" -- it literally said this: "Alewife. Davis Square. Porter. Harvard Square. Central Square. Kendall Square. Charles MGH. Park Street." etc etc until it got to Braintree, then it started again from Alewife. The T/O shut off the announcement thing after a few loops.
AEM7
Every R-142(A) running on the 2 and 6 has year-old announcements. They don't reflect the July 22, 2001 service changes. They don't reflect the September 11, 2001 (et. al.) service changes. They don't reflect the December 16, 2001 service changes.
At Times Square, the 2 fails to announce the Q and W and it declares itself an express. If you didn't hear that, it's because the C/R made a manual announcement in place of the automatic one.
As for other errors on the 2: it announces transfers to the 9 during rush hours, it announces transfers to the 1 where it should announce transfers to the 3 and vice versa, it omits the V at 14th, it includes PATH at Park Place, it omits the midday M at Fulton, Borough Hall, and Atlantic, and it includes the B and D but not the W at Atlantic (and it omits the Q on weekends).
The 6 fails to announce the MetroCard transfer to the F at 59th, announces the F instead of the V at 51st, omits the Q and W at 14th, includes the B, D, and Q at Bleecker (SB), and omits the Q and W again at Canal.
This is always the case on all R-142(A)'s unless the C/R silences the automated announcements.
As for announcing the wrong location, it happens from time to time. I was once on a 2 train that was flashing both Flatbush and Nevins at the same time. Last week, the signs in my car were stuck at Freeman (even though it was in Manhattan at the time), but the signs in the other cars kept up.
Well, it's really not the fault of the manufacturer. It's not malfunctioning. It's mearly spitting out what's been programmed into it.
I wasn't assigning fault.
But if you insist, it is the fault of the manufacturer for making it difficult to reprogram transfers -- or, alternatively, it's the fault of the TA for ordering equipment that would be difficult to reprogram.
As for the 2-express bit, that's a design error. The express/local status should be determined on the fly from which stops are programmed for that trip. It certainly shouldn't be hardcoded. This problem showed up the first late night the 2 ran R-142's, before any service changes.
And what about the fact that the R-142's on the 5 don't know how to deal with the numerous scheduled runs each day to Utica and New Lots? I thought the idea behind electronic displays was flexibility; the systems should be able to handle GO's and emergency reroutes, but they can't even handle scheduled service!
Yes, they're functioning as designed, for the most part. But they were designed all wrong!
I was on a 2 Train the other day at Chambers Street. My train stayed in the station for a while. It said local. The C/R then announced local. And we stayed a bit more, the C/R announced express, and local, and finally express for the last time. The signs changed accordingly. Also, I'm not sure how the digital signs on the R142 works but if it's like the R44 and R46 where there are many codes, perhaps the crew didn't know the code for it.
The train didn't say "local" -- it doesn't know that word, even on the 6. Maybe it was the C/R, who proceeded to get conflicting messages from the dispatcher?
The usual announcement at Chambers NB, if local stops are programmed, goes like this: "This is a Bronx-bound 2 express! train. The next stop is (pause) Franklin Street."
Let's say the train in question was terminating at 34th due to problems on the line further up, and let's say the T/O (yes, the T/O, not the C/R) has removed all stops north of 34th from the list of stops the train will be making. The strip maps will correctly light up only Chambers (blinking), 14th, and 34th. But the announcements will still call it Bronx-bound and the exterior signs will still have it going to the Bronx. The only alternative is to turn them off entirely. (I suspect that's why the 3 runs express to 14th and the 2 local to Brooklyn rather than vice versa, which would seem to make more sense.)
I've mentioned that my first R-143 ride was during a GO on the L. Trains were running in two segments, 8th Avenue to Lorimer and Myrtle to Canarsie, with a shuttle bus in the middle. The R-143 test train was on the south segment. It couldn't handle a north terminal of Myrtle, so the displays were blank and the C/R made manual announcements. (That may not be a big deal on the L, but what about on the M? The M shares platforms with lots of other routes.)
The R-44/46 displays are much more versatile. So are old-fashioned rollsigns. This Sunday, I expect to see only Redbirds on the 5, since I doubt the R-142's know how to deal with a 5 to Times Square.
I was talking about the interior destination signs. Don't remember the train saying express or local. Maybe "OnTheJuice" can help. I'm not familiar with the annoucement systems and I wouldn't know what to tell you about their capabilities and limitations. But I i strongly believe that it IS flexible but perhaps may need some addition T/O familiarization. Remember when the R142As on the 6 Line were new? The crews constantly forgot to set/reset the annoucements going uptown and it took them a few stations to get it right. Nowadays, they get the announcement to yell at people for holding doors after they leave the station.
The interior displays cycle between next stop (or current stop), route and destination, and time. They never display "express" or "local" -- that's relegated to the exterior signs and the announcements. (I once saw a 6 train at Brooklyn Bridge with interior signs mirroring the exterior signs. I've only seen it that one time.)
You may have seen the display go back and forth between Franklin and 14th as the T/O reprogrammed the stops. That part usually works correctly. What I'm saying is that, in either case, the announcements and the exterior signs consider the train an express.
I ride the 2 often and I have never heard the automated announcements or the exterior signs call it a local. If that's because the T/O's don't know how to use the system, then not one of the T/O's knows how to use the system. Besides, shouldn't the system be able to figure out on its own that, if the train's making all local stops, there's no way it could possibly be an express? There are two related design flaws right here. This is a particular problem on the 2, which is officially a local but often runs express -- how are passengers supposed to know whether a given train is making local stops if it announces itself as an express in either case?
I wish the system were flexible, but I'm afraid it isn't.
Besides, shouldn't the system be able to figure out on its own that, if the train's making all local stops, there's no way it could possibly be an express?
No. These systems typically do not know whether the train is stopping. They only know where the train is. Usually the systems work either by reading GPS or coded track circuits. So if something is an express, it will only announce at the stops where the express is supposed to stop. If something is a local, it will announce at all stops. So what happens if you tell the train that it's a local when the T/O is making all express stops, is you will hear the "local" stop announced as the train flies by.
While I do not know the particulars of the NYC system, I don't see why these systems should be designed to take T/O's stopping pattern into account. That's too hard and too expensive. A much easier system is for all the trains to be announced as "local", and have the T/O press a manual override button every time the train isn't going to make a stop. Now, I see that will have lots of T/Os going nuts esp when they are running express trains. So I ask the question: WHAT THE F**K IS WRONG WITH JUST HAVING THE CONDUCTOR ANNOUNCE THE STOPS? Okay, the guy has an accent and you can't hear? Well it would be easier just to have the Conductor enter a code in advance of each stop and have the computerized voice do the work. These GPS/track-circuit systems are difficult to get to work smoothly, esp. if it isn't part of the cab signalling system. (Which it won't be on NYCTA, because NYCTA doesn't have cab signalling).
AEM7
You don't know the hows or whys of these systems, do you?
The reason the announcements are automated is to integrate them with the interior station displays. Both an audio and visual announcement of station stops and transfers are required by the ADA. 50% of the time, the conductors don't announce the stops.
The system is programmed with the major route possibilities. They do have the ability to be bypassed, and they can be manually activated at each stop. The way the system is supposed to work (once the line is set) is by counting the door openings. If the doors are opened fully more than once at each stop, the system is screwed up. It can be 'realigned' again manually from the cab.
Personally, I think a better way for it to be done on the subway is by using a scanning system, the same way things are scanned in a supermarket.
-Hank
Both an audio and visual announcement of station stops and transfers are required by the ADA. 50% of the time, the conductors don't announce the stops.
Yes, and your point? That's a conductor problem. We have the same thing on MBTA, with bus drivers not announcing the stops. Personally, I don't see why they should comply with ADA if the Feds aren't out there enforcing it. ADA is the same piece of legislation that allowed "working horses" onto Amtrak trains, the ones which even won't fit around the doorway.
The system is programmed with the major route possibilities.
That is precisely why it doesn't work. The system I worked with (on DMUs running interurban services) had something like 100 route possibilities that each train must know and each T/O must know the index code for. So for example, if I were a T/O, for each of these stopping patterns I must know a code which I punch into the thing at the beginning of the run:
Glasgow, Croy, Falkirk High, Haymarket, Edinburgh
Glasgow, Falkirk High, Polmont, Linlithgow, Haymarket, Edinburgh
Glasgow, Falkirk High, Haymarket, Edinburgh
Glasgow, Croy, Falkirk High, Linlithgow, Haymarket, Edinburgh
Glasgow, Lenzie, Croy, Falkirk High, Haymarket, Edinburgh
Glasgow, Lenzie, Croy, Falkirk High, Linlithgow, Haymarket, Edinburgh
... etc
Now if you look at the stopping patterns for just one route, and then understand that one T/O may operate over many routes... you'd see why these systems screw up. The index code was printed out on a card and given to T/O's. They still periodically screw up. Easier just to have the conductor manually set up annonucements for each run.
The way the system is supposed to work (once the line is set) is by counting the door openings.
Anyone to design a system that retarded (care to actually observe how the conductors actually work the doors?) doesn't deserve to build trains...
AEM7
Personally, I think a better way for it to be done on the subway is by using a scanning system, the same way things are scanned in a supermarket.
And *that* is no problem. The conductor already gotta point at the Zebra, he might as well SCAN it at the same time. Make it part of the dor opening sequence. In order to OPEN the doors, you have to scan the zebra. If that is not possible than both the T/O and the C/R need to agree (by puching buttons) that it is save to open the doors.
I had already posted a suggestion to build a fence around the C/R position so that the geese would not mob him with questions and thus delay the train. And that would put the zebra boards right in his face. All he has to do is to scan the correct announcement for his train and the doors open.
: ) Elias
That's not what I had in mind. It would be a simple bar code or EZPass-type transponder at each station. A reciever/scanner is installed on each cab car. The train is programmed as to the route code, so it announces the train as an 'A Express' or a 'C Local'. Each time it enters a station, the scanner picks up the code from the transponder, which contains information as to what station it is and what transfers are available. This system relies only on the signal of the nearest transponder, and does not count starts, stops, or door openings. All the station and train info would be in the train's computer.
I believe service patterns change too often to specify transfers by time of day, although it is possible to do so. Frequent changes would complicate matters somewhat.
-Hank
The automated annoucements are controlled by the number wheel revolutions. And it doesn't factor in slipping. Hence on the display, it shows the distance from the last station.
Your homework assignment for tonight is to look up what local and express trains are in New York City Transit parlance.
Get back to me when you have some idea of what you're trying to discuss.
Ever noticed the shapes around the route line such as "(6)" and "< 6 >" inside? The 2 Line isn't differentiated between local and express. If things were normal on the West Side Lines, the 2 would be running on the express and the stops would be programmed to only include the express. And when something gets screwed over, the train is reprogrammed with the local stops.
Actually, I once saw a diamond-2 on an R-142 train. It was express in the Bronx due to a GO. It was still local in Manhattan, but it was identified as an express.
For a number of years -- since long before the first R-142 was delivered -- the 2 has run local in Manhattan at night. The announcements were wrong from the start. How do you account for that? How would you feel if you were the one waiting late at night at 42nd for a local, and you had to wait 15 extra minutes for no reason because you let a 2 go by without you thanks to the incorrect announcement?
You claimed that the R-142 signs and announcements are flexible. Obviously you define that word differently than I do. I see practically no flexibility at all in the system! Every 2, no matter what, is an express, and it only has a few approved terminals. Where do you see flexibility? For today's IRT GO, it should have been possible to reprogram the R-142's on the 2 and 5 with their actual routes, and the announcements should have updated themselves automatically (obviously the strip maps would have to blank out). Instead, the 2's were signed as usual, and the one R-142 5 train I saw (the line was mostly R-33's today) was signed as a Lexington Avenue express to Bowling Green. (The Redbird rollsigns, which have very little flexibility, got the route wrong but got the destination correct.)
I'm also waiting to hear from someone what the possible advantage is to a hard-coded "local" or "express" status on a given line. Wouldn't it always make more sense to figure it out from the list of stops, or to at least allow the crew to manually override the default setting?
Every combination can be programmed in. I've seen a 5 running on the 2 (or was it 2 running on the 5) with the right route with the destination and line of operation correct like "(2) Lexington Avenue Express" Definately can be worked out. We just need to see if the T/O feels like putting "(2)" and "7 AV LOCAL" together.
I'm sorry. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't believe you. I ride the 2 all the time and I've never seen anything of the sort. The rerouted 2 might have been reprogrammed on the fly as a 5 to get it to announce the right stops. Did you take a picture, by any chance?
The poster "Clayton" has some pictures on his site which is linked to his system which is off while he's on vacation. He'll be back by the end of the month.
I look forward to seeing them. I've seen probably thousands of R-142 2 trains and I've never seen the number 2 appear next to any routing other than 7 AV EXPRESS.
(But in any case, my earlier question still stands: why doesn't the system automatically figure out that a train that's making all local stops can't possibly be an express? Aren't computers supposed to take care of tasks like that for us?)
These trains don't have logic. If there was a street called "Express", I sure hope it wouldn't start calling it "Local". Only as good as those combinations being put in.
But the interior strip map will show the wrong route if you freely swap cars between the 2 & 5.
Yes. So it'll be off in that case.
>>>This is always the case on all R-142(A)'s unless the C/R silences the automated announcements.<<<
Not quite. It is always the case on the 2 and 6. But not on the 5. On the 5, the only mistakes are that it announces transfers to the 3 instead of the 1 at Fulton, Boro Hall, Nevins and Franklin and the 1 and 2 are omitted at Atlantic. I guess they figure if you want the 1 or 2, you'll transfer at Nevins where you have a cross-platform transfer. Also the 6 does say local - in the Bronx on trains to and from Parkchester.
But they do need to update the automated transfer voices. That or just eliminate them. Someone posted here that the TA passed some rule requiring C/R's to use the canned voices. Yet they didn't fix them. Now there was a smart thing for the TA to do! Confuse the riders and write up C/R's for trying not to do so.
Yes, I only mentioned the 2 and 6 for that reason.
Here's what I find really odd: about a month ago, I rode a 5 train with 2 strip maps (i.e., it was part of the 2 fleet but it was on the East Side at that time for some reason), and it made the correct announcements at 59th (I only rode from 42nd to 59th). Yet that very same train, when back home on the 2, gets everything wrong! So it's not a matter of some trains having up-to-date info and others not.
From what I've read here, C/R's are supposed to replace incorrect announcements with correct ones, but are otherwise required to allow the canned announcements to play. But how does one define an incorrect announcement? As far as I'm concerned, if the 2 is running local, then the train identifies itself incorrectly at each stop in Manhattan. Every reference to the 9 is an incorrect announcement. Every reference to the 1 but not the 3 an express stop is an incorrect (incomplete, really) announcement. The omission of the midday M is an incorrect (incomplete) announcement. But I don't think I've ever heard a C/R correct those errors. (Not that they should have to! We've spend enough money on these cars that are supposed to take care of the announcements.)
And if the R-142's could be programmed to have any destination, I suspect we'd see the 2 as an express to 14th and the 3 as a local to New Lots.
The C/R didn't properly program the train on the 2 Line. C/Rs will talk in place or in addition to the announcements. Like on the 6 Line heading downtown at Bleeker, the 6 annouces B,D,F,Q trains. But the C/R will override and say only F,V, and S. At 14 Street, the train announces, N,R,L,4,5 Trains. The C/R will say, "Transfers also avaliable Q, and W." Number 2 Trains identify themselves as local and express? I thought that was only on the 5, 6, 7, and Q because all the other routes have only one routing.
The trains on the 2 are programmed as well as they can be. The T/O (not the C/R; for some reason, the T/O does all the programming) can't correct the programs with the outdated transfers on the 2 -- even if the very same train has up-to-date transfer information for the 5. If it's a 2, the B and D stop at Atlantic; if it's a 5, they don't but the W does.
The signs on the 2 identify the train as 7 AV EXPRESS, even if the train is programmed to make local stops. The automated voice announces, "This is a Bronx-bound 2 express train" or "This is a Brooklyn-bound 2 express train" at every stop in Manhattan (and only in Manhattan), even if the train is programmed to make local stops.
(What did you think my point was in the other subthread?)
Incidentally, I do think it's good practice (on trains without automated announcements) for C/R's to make "local" and "express" announcements at each station (where relevant). Not everyone has memorized the entire system. The one exception is on the SB circle-Q in Manhattan on weekdays; the C/R really should announce it as an express, since it is an express in Manhattan, but that might chase away people looking for local stops in Brooklyn. (I don't know what most C/R's tend to do in that case.)
????????????
Usually, they call it plain Q until it gets to Dekalb AVe.
Still hear them refer to it as the Q Diamond/Express or Q Local from the conductors
It depends on the conductor.
If the C/R ever worked in the A Div, he calls it a Q until DeKalb, when the differentiation begins to make difference, much the same as he would have called it a 6 until 125 St, when it became a 6 Local or 6 Express.
But some C/R's identify their trains as local or express at each stop to aid tourists and anyone else not familiar with the line, even if there's only one version of the line thta always runs local or always runs express. How do they identify SB circle-Q's in Manhattan -- express (just as they'd identify the A as express) or local (to make the distinction with the diamond, even though the train at that point is running express and calling it a local might cause some people to miss their stops)?
The same question applies on NB diamond 6's in Manhattan, although there's no risk of people missing stops due to an ambiguous announcement. The point there is just about moot now, since C/R's don't make announcements on the 6 anymore.
Probably Q or Q local, in most cases. But I don't think most C/R's announce the current local-express status of their trains in general.
A better question is whether those C/R's who, on other express lines, do announce at each stop that their train is an express, make similar announcements on the circle-Q.
They mix and match the words in "Q Diamond Express" and "Q Circle Local". Now when both go to Brighton Beach, what kinda call signs will those be? Same origin and destination.
So just how tough is it to update these automated announcements? Does the on-board computer read some sort of text file that can be edited and written back into the computer? Or is it a file that can be downloaded into each motor car's computer?
wayne
--The brakes (which do not squeal as much as I've noticed in the past) are normal. --
Remember when the R142's were First arriving, there was the issue of excessive brake wear..
--How many times have you noticed the incident of wrong announcements?--
On the 2, which i take monday- thursday,about 40% of the time, but the signs screw up even more.
On the 6, which i take daily, never.
On the 2, which i take monday- thursday,about 40% of the time, but the signs screw up even more.
I didn't notice the signs messing up when I rode the 2 yesterday. Probably I should ride it more frequently or for longer distances to see the mistakes?
I've only seen it on the 6 once, and that just so happened to be when I was with a few of my friends, who just so happened to be discussing the technical problems of the R142s at the time. Strange coincedence.
Your question betrays a lack of understanding about business in the public sector. Ask yourself two questions.
1) Where are the Bombardier cars built?
2) What will happen if the NYCT stopped accepting the delivery of the cars?
If you can answer those two questions then you need not ask your question!!!
OK, I'll bite:
1) Where are the Bombardier cars built?
Where? They're assembled in the U.S., but then any builder (including Kawasaki) would have to assemble them in the U.S. The only difference is that Bombardier cars have their innards built in Canada instead of Japan. Now, is Canadian build preferential because they are under NAFTA?
2) What will happen if the NYCT stopped accepting the delivery of the cars?
People in Canada get the shaft. What the hell is the problem? Canadians deserve the shaft anyway.
AEM7
I kinda like Canadians.
"I kinda like Canadians"
Sure, they taste like Chicken.
: )
The Bombs are built in Upstate New York. Bombardier was forced to open a plant in Plattsburg and hire a bunch of inexperienced workers at high wages to get the contract. The workers are rural whites, and are therefore hardworking and deserving, not on welfare, unlike the million of us scum in NYC (there may not be a million New Yorkers on welfare arithmetically anymore, but there still are politically).
Bombardier and Kawasaki made equal campaign contributions to a wide variety of elected officials, therefore, they deserve equal orders. The quality of the car has nothing to do with it.
But hopefully, with some experience the non-welfare recipients of Plattsburg will do a better job next time. Even though they don't have to.
BINGO
Don't knock the good people of Plattsburg. I spent the whole day there when my Harley broke down on a trip to Montreal (don't say it Train Dude!!) and me and my wife were treated royaly. The Harley dealer offered to loan us their truck to get lunch and when they were finished they charged us only for the parts, not the labor or the road service call. The people in the city were all VERY friendly.
Jeff, far be it from me to say anything about a Harley breaking down (Tsk, Tsk, Tsk)
It was one loose wire that came out which stopped the battery from charging. Somewhere between Lake George & Plattsburg it stopped charging and the battery finally went dead in Platsburg. I now have a voltage meter mounted on the handlebars so I will always know if it stops charging!!!
I'm glad that it turned out to be so simple, Jeff. One of our club members lost a clutch cable recently. Another's engine just quit and had to be trailered back from Woodstock. My Harley is going to be 3 on July 10th. My major probles are he occasionally pees in the livingroom and won't eat dogfood.
hah. So what is your motorcycle of choice, then? Is this like an EMD versus GE argument again?
AEM7
"I ride ASEA"
I have 4 motorcycles.
My favorite is my Honda Shadow A.C.E. tourer 1100cc. For shorter rides (although I've ridden it to Miami) I have 1994 Honda Shadow 1100 cc (my wife is 'asking' that I sell one or the other). I also have a 1978 Honda CB550K which is undergoing a major rebuilding. My toy is a 1974 Honda CB360.
I was actually lucky it broke down where it did. The trip to Montreal was a day trip from the Americade in Lake George (in '96). If I broke down at Lake George I never could have got it fixed as the only dealer was McDermott's in Queensbury about 15 miles away and during the Americade the line in the door is around the block there, mostly to get T-shirts. (McDermott's is actually a very good dealer the other 51 wks of the year. And if I broke down 20 miles past Plattsburg I'd have been in a foreign country and the only French I know is Oui and no!!!
Actually I've seen many Jap Bikes breaking down too. Its not only Harleys. My ex-girlfriend (way before my wife) had a Honda Interceptor that never seemed to finish any trip we went on. I spent many a time pushing her so she could pop the clutch.
By the way, I have a Harley and a Jap Bike so I know both sides. As I'm in the process of retiring from the NYPD I'll be getting a big check in Sept as a final pension loan. Although most will go into an IRA I plan to buy a new car and a New Sportster 883 to compliment my big bike.
You would love the T-shirt I'm wearing today:
If Harley Davidson made airplanes
would you fly in one?
To keep this on topic I rode to Branford a few weeks ago. Riding a bike 90 miles each way from L.I. then operating Brooklyn convertible 4573 all day, what a combo!!!
Most Harleys are known for peeing oil on the driveway
Four former TA employees did a X-country trip a couple of years ago. The harley wore a diaper most of the trip.
That was a quesion I was interested in a while ago while looking at a conductor's Sportster. I would think since Harley owners seem to turn down their idle RPMs they may be starving their rear oil seals or lowering the oil pressure altogether?
I went with the Honda Shadow Spirit 1100 I emailed you with. Look for it at CC this week. The Harley looked better at the dealers lot.
"I kinda like Canadians"
Look, my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend is a white Canadian. I'm Asian. I kind of have some issues. Actually some pretty big issues. Please excuse me.
So if I hate Canadians, that's where it comes from. I hate to be condeming a whole nation of people for one individual, but I also hate the lack of national pride amongst some Americans. People are forever banging on this board about how good the Canadian healthcare system is, how good the Toronto transit is and how much of a cultural city Montreal is. How'd you like to pay the taxes they pay? How'd you like to have a Budd car running around with some 12% load factor on lines that nobody rides? The U.S. is one of the best countries I've lived in and I've lived in a few places, believe me.
AEM7
Hahhahahah, then I'd say it's it's a good thing she didn't work at the United Nations. If she did and had a morally casual attitude, you might hate the entire world. Get over it, guy.
Hey, for once Train Dude shows his real sympathic self, wow, I'm impressed. Is he hinting that not everything is a pass/fail? :-) Thanks, TD. I needed that.
Hahhahahah, then I'd say it's it's a good thing she didn't work at the United Nations.
Actually, it would probably have been better if she did. If that were the case, her family would not have the mindset of the Midwestern suburbanite. I don't claim to have lived the ghettos of Boston, but I have at least seen it, and lived with someone who came from the ghettos of London.
Get over it, guy.
I did, until three months after they broke up, the mom calls up the ex-boyfriend because she had decided to take a trip to my ghetto home in Boston with me. The ex-boyfriend was not amused. Wait -- this is three months after HE dumped HER, gutter style. Now I am wondering how much my head is worth in the ghettos of Toronto. Maybe I should offer more money for his head in the ghettos of Boston? Too bad I don't live in the ghettoiest part of the city.
You know how David Gunn quit WMATA because of "political meddling"? Now I know how that feels to be on the receiving end of this. I'm just grateful to my parents that they don't meddle.
AEM7
Duh, stupid me. I didn't realize who AEM7 was. This has the makings of a great story! If the boy friend dumped her, why does he care where she goes or who she visits? Wait, E-mail me with the rest of the story. If it's any good .............................
Health Care sucks. They won't do anything that doesn't preseent an immidiate death risk. For example, they won't operate on cancer because it isn't significant, or do blood transfusions. Also doctors are forbided from accepting money from anyone to do a operation that would be done in the USA but isn't covered by Socialized Health Care (mandatory Medicare paid by taxes or mandatory fee each year(?)). Most people have to go to the USA just to get certain heart operations.
Canadas health care sucks. The Canadians goverment is communists because it thinks "If some people get bad health care (minoritys), why should the richer get better health care?"
Me too. No doubt aboot it.
They have good music. I get MuchMusic CAN, MoreMuchMusic from Canada since USA networks are having a R&B/Soul/Rap/Urban/aimed-at-blacks fixation right now. Plus some stuff comes out on MuchMusic CAN before VH1 or MTV, like months before. Also they have some artists that aren't well known in the USA. I have a grey marketExpressVU system from Canada. Mother's relatives live in Canada. It is legal because there aren't any rules that you can't export the system, nor that you can't use it from another country (reception is fine in NYC, if you use a 30inch dish you can get it on the Key West islands, better than really northern Canada). All they need is a residential address in Canada which I have.
--What will happen if the NYCT stopped accepting the delivery of the cars? --
Besides the obvious, Bomba(doh) will get the message that the TA will not tolerate the disrespect of having POS' built and delivered for the amount of money paid for each car . Cutting corners is one thing, but building a car with nothin more than chewing gum and duct tape is another.
Makes perfect sense. Quality and pride in workmanship should be important. If I were to go to a restaurant and the food were lousy, I wouldn't go to that restaurant again, and no one should blame me for that (except maybe the people who work at the restaurant). Right?
- Lyle Goldman
My point exactly. Welcome to the club.
yet if that restauraunt was a chain, and one of the restaurants was bad, yet you have had a good meal at another one, would you return?
Sure i'd go to another one if I hadn't had too many bad experences as a whole with The chain.
The R62as(BOMBARDIER) are a great order, one of the best(structurally), look at how many are completely wrecked in accidents compared to their sister order the R62s(KAWASAKI)(which is a much smaller fleet as well)
What do accidents have to do with the quality of a car?
the R62s crumple like aluminum foil in any stress
Train Dude,
To your knowledge is there any provision in federal or NYS law to do "second sourcing in the event of a problem?
DoD and its predecessor during wartime could and did order the licensing of one company's weapons to another. General Motors built planes designed by Boeing in the 1940's etc. When Hughes had trouble with the AIM-54 Phoenix missile and the Maverick anti-armor weapon in the 1980's, DoD had a coproduction contingency plan ("this is not a request").
While granting the unique environment in defense contracting, is there any provision for MTA to engage in this sort of thing?
didn the R62a have some sort of problems?
Yes. The R-62A had many problems, mostly relating to the propulsion system. Delivery was stopped several times and the order was nearly canceled before all cars could be delivered. The problems were ultimately resolved to NYCT's satisfaction and the cars became very reliable. More recently, the propulsion systems were replaced by electronic versions and now the cars are even more reliable.
David
As I recall the R-68 had some problems, when new, also. What were those?
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-68s were delivered in 1986-87 - built a french-American collaberation. by 1994 their MDBF had reached about 19,000 miles between breakdowns. Chief among the problems were the New York Air Brake brakevalve, 3 different types of door hangers and a primative Westinghouse propulsion system. By 1998, with much hard work, the cars had attained an MDBF of 80-90,000 miles.
Keeping the cars there was highly labor-intensive. Fortunately, when the cars went for their heavy (12 year) SMS we took some major corrective actions.
The New York Air Brake brakevalves were replaced by the spare WABCO brakevalves that were removed when the R-62s were linked.
The Faverly, Edwards and Morton door tracks were replaced with HAFCO coaxial door hangers.
The air operated Westinghouse propulsion system was replaced by the Adtranz E-Cam system.
The DC Evaporator motors were replaced by Rotron inverters and AC blower motors.
The cars were linked into 4-car units - reducing much of the redundent equipment that was maintenance intensive. This allowed more attention to be paid to fewer components.
The result is a car that is now one of the most reliable pieces of equipment in the NYCT fleet. 12 month moving MDBF is around 180,000 miles.
With a little hard work and some tweaking we've been able to move the MDBF
That is a superb MDBF!!! It paid off, obviously. :)
Sounds like you guys pretty much built brand new cars (after all, what's a shell in the maintenance scheme of things?) ... does sound like you guys did a LOT of work to get there and it seems to have paid off. I wasn't impressed with the CI cars on the Q, but the ones on the D train were pretty nicely behaved and looked well cared for ...
I'm very impressed. I've never heard of an MDBF that was more than 100,000 miles. But that's probably because I was playing with shoddy British Rail equipment.
The DMU's that we were getting from Adtranz -- they had an MDBF of 8,000 miles when they were delivered. This translates into a failure every day, since we ran an average an 400 mile diagram for each unit every day and we had a fleet of 22 to cover 20 diagrams (required availability = 91%). I seem to remember they never really got any better than about 12,000 miles. I've since left the transit authority in question, but I read in the trade press recently that the entire fleet was recalled to have their Cummins engines replaced.
AEM7
Were those R68 limited or included the R68As?
SMS is done on a time-based schedule. The R-68s were purchased 2 years before the R-68As so were SMSd 2 years earlier. In addition, the R-68A already had a WABCO brakevalve and so that part of the workscope was eliminated. I assume that the R-68A workscope was similar in other respects.
I remember reading about that in the News awhile ago.... whats the problem with this contries inablity to produce decent rail cars is totally beyond me....I dont get it at all....
Kawasaki has had major problems with the C-3s, too. The problem is simple. When you buy a Ford or a Honda or a Saturn, you get a car off the shelf with specs. determined by the company that built it. There is no "Off-the-Shelf subway car built in the USA or built for any US rail properties. NYCT and every other rail property set out their own specs and their own engineering criteria. Every subway car model is different, analagous to the first year of a new car model. If US rail properties would buy "off-the-shelf" models, the manufatcturers could standardize parts and the people who build them would also become more proficient in doing their job. As it stands now, each contract of railcar has its own learning curve associated with it.
Just think how well Bombardier would do if they produced 1,000 updated R-62As for NYCT (instead of the R-142)and then sold that same car to others such as PATH.
Just think how well Bombardier would do if they produced 1,000 updated R-62As for NYCT (instead of the R-142)and then sold that same car to others such as PATH.
Is it true that the Boston and the Chicago procurement strategy is a better one then? The MBTA 01500, 01600, and 01700 fleets are all based on the same design, with incremental mods, right? As far as I understand, CTA also steered clear of any radical design changes.
I would be very interested to know whether the R-142A's are at least in some vague way based on the MBTA 01800. Bombardier built the 01800's too, and I assume the R-142A's have an updated version of what went in the 01800. I also know that the 01800's were built at about the same time as British Rail class 365 "Networkers", and the cars ride similar and sound similar. Of course, lots of physical components are different, but I am thinking that the traction package etc are probably based on the same basic design.
Anyone care to comment?
AEM7
Also remember the Metropolitan commuter Railcars series on MNRR and LIRR.
They need to reconvene the Presidents Conference Committee.
Yeah, but where are you going to find Electric Railway Presidents today? Remember, the ERPCC was funded by the transit companies that wanted a new streetcar, the car builders (St. Louis Car, J.G. Brill, and Perley-Thomas Car Company) and the electric equipment suppliers, GE and Westinghouse.
The PCC was a product of private industry. The private rail transit company doesn't exist today.
Interesting note: Of the 27 elctric railways/transit companies that belonged to the ERPCC, only 2 made every annual subscription payment through the entire process from 1929 to 1935 - The Toronto Transportation Commission (Today's Toronto Transit Commission) and the United Railways and Electric Company/Baltimore Transit Company.
The various transit properties (BART, MTA, PATH, LAMTA etc), need to agree on a modular design for rapid transit cars. A family of cars which would be supplied in various lengths as needed and as mechanically similar as possible so that economies of scale can be taken advantage of in manufacturing. However options would be available for properties as CTA for instance, who uses a unique electric braking system. The car builders would be required to produce cars of that design for customers who are in the "committee"
However, today the industry has moved back to the pre-PCC day of "We have to have equipment designed for our system. Cars from somewhere else won't work here"
Other than Seimens making the SD series of LRV's which has resulted in several LRV systems having similar equipment.
However, Baltmore, Boston, LA, Dallas, Philadelphia, NJT and Toronto have gone to custom designed equipment for each system at increased costs.
The lessons of a standard streetcar that fit everywhere (and could be easily modifed for local systems at low cost) were lost after the PCC.
Unless there's a change in industry mindset, its not going to happen.
In my experience, the R142/142A/143 trainsets share a lot of common major parts but 'experts cooked the fecal soup' and generated a batch of trainsets that cannot swap the essentials to MAKE TRAINS GO. It's the old story of the deaf/dumb/blind examining an elephant. If a propulsion module failed on my R142 I should be able to have the supply counter call up a replacement from a yard maintaining R143s or if a door control unit failed I should be able to hunt down a loose unit from a R142A. This ain't the Army Mr. Blair...it's TA and I'm learning every day to work with the system. Today I had R142 ceiling panels with defective locks that needed properly fitting roll pins to keep the lock cylinders from rotating beyond 90 degrees. Made permanent repairs...engineering is studying the matter. One of my supervisors said, "A good Car Inspector can improvise." I take that to heart...I cannot name him but I can say 'I work with the best.' The Train Dude knows of who I'm talking about. CI Peter
Did the TA consider ordering new R-62(A)'s instead of the R-142(A)'s? How much would that have saved?
Remember, the R-142/142A/143 procurements followed the testing of the R-110A/110B. NYCT's push toward "new technology" goes back to the late 1980s (the R-110s were contracted for in 1989 and delivered in 1992-93). The technology the R-62, etc. were built with, while tried-and-true, is pretty old, and was pretty old when it was ordered. It should also be remembered that the R-62, etc. have had incremental updating of their components (such as replacement of DC air conditioning blower motors by inverters and AC motors -- thanks, "Train Dude," for mentioning this about the R-68s in another thread today) over the past few years, and will continue to do so. Some of the "new" componentry on the R-142/142A/143, while new here, has actually been in use in other places for a while now. Fewer and fewer transit systems are ordering components of the types prevalent on NYCT's older cars, so it doesn't make sense for NYCT to keep ordering elderly (though reliable) parts and pay top dollar when other, newer, equally (or more) reliable and/or less maintenance-intensive components (once the "teething problems" are addressed, at any rate) are more widely available for less money.
David
Remember, the R-142/142A/143 procurements followed the testing of the R-110A/110B. NYCT's push toward "new technology" goes back to the late 1980s (the R-110s were contracted for in 1989 and delivered in 1992-93). The technology the R-62, etc. were built with, while tried-and-true, is pretty old, and was pretty old when it was ordered. It should also be remembered that the R-62, etc. have had incremental updating of their components (such as replacement of DC air conditioning blower motors by inverters and AC motors -- thanks, "Train Dude," for mentioning this about the R-68s in another thread today) over the past few years, and will continue to do so. Some of the "new" componentry on the R-142/142A/143, while new here, has actually been in use in other places for a while now. Fewer and fewer transit systems are ordering components of the types prevalent on NYCT's older cars, so it doesn't make sense for NYCT to keep ordering elderly (though reliable) parts and pay top dollar when other, newer, equally (or more) reliable and/or less maintenance-intensive components (once the "teething problems" are addressed, at any rate) are more widely available for less money.
David
So the answer to my first question is "no"?
Everything I've seen indicates that nothing but "new technology" has been considered since pre-1989, which is long before the cars now coming in were ordered.
David
The problem is simple. When you buy a Ford or a Honda or a Saturn, you get a car off the shelf with specs. determined by the company that built it. There is no "Off-the-Shelf subway car built in the USA or built for any US rail properties. NYCT and every other rail property set out their own specs and their own engineering criteria.
Which also means that each subway car bears a high proportion of the design costs.
Does anyone know if the R142 option order has been placed? Did Bomb. finish delivering the original order?
The option order and a change order for more cars were placed simultaneously in early 2001. The base order was for 680 cars, and I don't think it's finished yet.
David
1) Change order?
2) Why did they buy more of the r-142's? are they trying to ensure that CI's have something to do?
1) Just like it sounds: a change in the terms of the contract -- in this case, increasing the number of cars. A new car procurement contract normally has many change orders, some of which affect what ends up going out on the road, some of which are purely administrative.
2) They also bought more R-142As (from Kawasaki). The original R-142 and R-142A contracts did not provide for enough cars to replace all of the "Redbirds" (1,080 vs. 1,401). The orders had options built in, but they didn't provide for fleet expansion (remember, the free MetroCard bus/subway transfer kicked in just after the contracts were signed, and ridership soared). The change order (150 cars) covered that, with "Redbird" retirements being manipulated to provide at least some service increases (like 10-car #3 trains) before all the new cars are in.
In April (latest month I have available), R-142 Mean Distance Between Failures was 97,862 miles, while R-142A MDBF was 112,128 miles. The contractual minimum MDBF is 100,000 miles, which the pre-R-142/142A fleet reaches on a regular basis but didn't at the time the contracts were signed.
David
So, if the TA needed more cars why not just buy them all from kawasaki? Is the TA blissfully unaware of all the problems the R-142's are giving?
Y'know, you can't give a contract to someone who doesn't want it. It's possible Kawasaki didn't want to produce as many new cars for NYCT as NYCT needed, no? Kawasaki's base order was for 400 R-142As, with an option for 120 cars (which was taken), for a total of 520 cars.
As for NYCT being "blissfully unaware" of problems with the R-142s, does anyone here REALLY think the newspapers get their information out of the ether? The information we've all been reading in the papers (and seeing on TV, etc.) is provided by NYC Transit in response to reporters' questions. In addition, NYCT and Bombardier meet all the time to discuss various contractual issues, as they did with the R-62A order.
David
ok, the " blisfully unaware" part was very sarcastic and rhetorical.
Question: Why wouldn't Kawasaki want to sell NYCT more subway cars? After all, that's more money in the bank, and money is what every company wants, or am i missing something? That sounds almost as strange as walikng into a car dealer and not being bombarded by sales pitches.....
Kawasaki usually takes the smaller order. Probably just because they don't want to do so many cars. Quality over quantity.
-Quality over Quantity-
Ok, so Kawasaki would rather build better cars than more of them... Perhaps NYCT could spread car orders out over time so kawasaki could build them all.
But, seriously, Bombardier is just ridiculus as far as the quality of the cars they are spitting out. They obviously have no shame and low standards.
I have not been on a "bomb" 142 in quite some time. What's been going on lately? Are they breaking down? Are crews having problems? I'm just curious.
hey man calm down,its obvious that many bad things are gonna happen with these new cars.you cant expect everything new to come perfect,it just doesnt happen.there will be problems and as time passes the TA will deal with them.for now WE have to deal with them.
bring back the r12-r36s!!!.....bring back the low-vs & high vs ..!!
bring back the ALL AMERICAN BUILT TRANSIT RAIL CARS & COMPANIES !!
sorry bout' da' caps' ............lol !!
Doncha Wish!!!
I suspect that when we get the WayBak Machine, we will discover that folks didn' t like those new-fangled electric streetcars as they replaced the familiar horse and cable cars.
I would note that, when I was a young railfan, the older fans weren't wild about the PCC. Too much new-fangled, over-complicated stuff in them. The semi-convertible cars that dominated Baltimore from 1905 to 1955 were just fine. Simple and dependable.
Now fast forward to today - where solid dependable PCC's are replaced with new-fangled, over-complicated LRV's.
It's not the equipment, it's the attitude!
oh yea its the equip. that counts........thankz !!
All right all you lazy parkers, you have absolutely NO excuse not to attend tomorrow's SEPTA trip. The trip starts at 9:30 on the Market East eastbound platform. We can happly postpone the departure to 10:30, all anyone has to do it inform us. Please, this'll be fun and packed with Silverliners (tm).
How do I go to the SEPTA trip, Im in BOS
How do I go to the SEPTA trip, Im in BOS
Take the 5:15 AM Acela Express BOS to PHL. We'll meet you at 30th Street if you let us know you're coming.
I don't pheel like going to Philly again so soon. I was there Tuesday watching the Mets pretend to be a baseball team. The best thing I saw was the hulk of the SS United States. I wanted to take some photos of the USS New Jersey from South Street, but I didn't want to pay $9 to park the car nearest the best POV.
-Hank
Thanks again for the invite, as well as the info re Trenton & West Trenton. Sorry I can't make it, but enjoy the trip!
I have an excuse, I have to leave early Friday afternoon because I have to go upstate. Sorry!
Hope ya have fun!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Coolie"
The Philadelphia Police Department is nothing more than a bunch of jack booted Nazi thugs. Imagine, arresting two guys for simply taking pictures! They ought to wear swaztica patches on their sleeves to make it official. The nerve!!!!
E_DOG
For once, I agree with you. The Philly police are nothing but a headache for the city of Philadelphia. They don;t do their jobs, and when they actually do, its something stupid like arresting photographers.
If anybody saw them from the subway elevateds in Brooklyn or Queens, let us know how it was. As for myself, I just watched them on TV, and saw the 10 minute show from my window over in Morgan Park in Glen Cove.
Alot of people came to see the show, cars parked everywhere and when they ended there was big traffic in Sea Cliff. Just to see a small 10 minute show!
Well hope you all had a great July 4th. :-)
It was a marvelous firework show to be seen on the Williamsburg Bridge. ALthough there wasn't that much people on the bridge. Lucky that I brought confortable cushion to sit on and a large bag potatoes chip with me to enjoy spectacular site in a nice breey air from the east river.
I might have seen the Glen Cove fireworks from the Northern State Expressway. Is that possible?
Very unlikely, as it is difficult to see the Glen Cove fireworks from anywhere but right along Sea Cliff beach and Morgan Park.
Also between Northern pkwy and Glen Cove are the 300-400 foot East Hills which would block any view. Perhaps you saw another show.
No, that's not possible, considering there is no Northern State Expressway here.
- Lyle Goldman
I had my window open all night long, and heard not one firecracker. And this in a state where fireworks are LEGAL! must have something to do with he dryness and the extreme fire indexes. ood to see (and hear) that people were paying attention to these. Maybe kids ain't so stoopid out herer after all.
I must say thet fireworks are much safer here since they are legal. None of the illeagal kinds (the big ones like M-80s and Cherry Bombs) are found.
Elias
Firework sales were banned in Colorado last month by the governor due to the extreme fire danger from the drought we're in the middle of. Many public firework shows were canceled last night due to high winds.
Ahh. Nothing like celebrating the independence of one's country by blowing up a small piece of it.
I went to Vernon-Jackson Avs. and had a short walk to the Gantry Park near the E. River. From here, you can view all five barges and the fireworks lifting up from them.
Best view I've had in the history that I've been to see fireworks.
I watched them from the Queensboro Plaza platform on the "7". Somebody on SubTalk suggested this spot and they were right. Luckily, a Flushing bound "7" arrived (a redbird - even better!) just as the finale was taking place (so I got to beat the rush). The motorman was nice enough to turn off the lights, so we had an excellent view of the fireworks.
The motorman was nice enough to turn off the lights, so we had an excellent view of the fireworks.
When did the motorman actually turn off the lights?
Between Queensboro Plaza and 33rd Street.
Great timing!!!
My wife and I went to the East River right near the Vernon-Jackson (7) station. They were awesome! What was funny was that the fireworks that spelled "USA" to Manhattanites looked more like "AZU" to those of us in Queens and Brooklyn.
:-) Andrew
I saw the fireworks with a friend of mine on the roof of his apartment building in lower manhattan (alphabet city). The distance was perfect; a great view for my eyes, and quiet enough for my ears! :-) -Nick
Just finished watching "The Warriors" on TV. The film was made in 1979 and the trains were very ugly with graffiti from top to bottom, inside and out. The subway scenes were superb, though. The film is about a big meeting of all the gangs in the city led by the Big Cahoona from the Bronx. Some Bronx or Manhattan gang punk shoots him for the hell of it and the poor Warriors get the blame. They have to fight their way out of the north Bronx through Manhattan and back to their home "on the ocean". It all turns out well for seven of them but they lost two or three on the way home. Brooklyn boys wouldn't do such a dastardly deed, only the Bronx and Manhattan gang bangers would. (that's just a kidding opinion) Anyway, it was a good flik and I loved the last scenes shot at Coney Island. I'm not sure though if I saw the Cyclone or the now defunct Thunderbolt. I did see the Wonder Wheel and the static Parachute non ride.
I will never understand why they didn't name that new Minour League Baseball team in Coney Island, the Coney Island Warriors. I mean come on. It's just TOO perfect. The Coney Island Cyclones is lame and predictable. Had them been named "The Warriors" they would have had a PERFECT fan cheer. WARRIORS...COME OUT AND PLAY
The Coney Island Cuniculi would have been more linguistically appealing (and made for many learnedly lacivious jokes). Confer AHD4.
The Coney Island Stud Bunnies would be just as good.
I have it on DVD for abour three weeks and I still never got to see it. Trian Opt. for the board told me about.
Robert
The VHS and DVD versions include some footage not shown on TV. OTOH the TV version includes a daytime sequence at the very beginning, even before the opening titles, showing the Warriors planning their excursion to the Bronx.
As much as the train markings vary on the R-27/30s which are seen the most, there is not a single N marking anywhere to be seen.
Since it is almost midnight New York time I had better get this post off right away. Fifty years ago today, July 4, 1952, saw the Dodgers defeat the Giants 5-1 in the first game of a double=header at the Polo Grounds. The second game was rained out and the first was called after eight innings. Clem Labine came in relief for the Bums in the first inning and shut the Giants down cold.
Whew!! I made it just in time with ten minutes to spare.
Willie Mays had already left to be inducted into the army. Remember when Charlie Dressen said, "The Giants is dead"?
On July 4, 1968, we set out on vacation, taking the Turnpike through most of Pennsylvania. At that time, the 12-mile bypass had not yet opened, and because of that, six of the original seven tunnels were still in service. Two years later, we had just started our trip to the western states and spent the 4th in South Bend visiting old friends and neighbors.
I have a question about some Hudson Line cars I saw at Grand Central today. Cars #6286-6288 look look like Shoreliner IIIs and Shoreliner IVs but in ConnDOT colors and a Connecticut Commuter Rail logo on it. They look relatively new and have a middle door. Are these new cars that ConnDOT purchased or what?
BTW, I have a pic of #6288. If anyone wants to see it and/or respond to my question, please e-mail me at carlwal@hotmail.com. Thanx!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Rapid Transit Series
"Coolie"
It was meant as a question...
>>>I have a question about some Hudson Line cars I saw at Grand Central today. Cars #6286-6288 look look like Shoreliner IIIs and Shoreliner IVs but in ConnDOT colors and a Connecticut Commuter Rail logo on it. They look relatively new and have a middle door. Are these new cars that ConnDOT purchased or what?
BTW, I have a pic of #6288. If anyone wants to see it and/or respond to my question, please e-mail me at carlwal@hotmail.com. Thanx!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Rapid Transit Series
"Coolie"
Yes, and about 10 of them were purchased for the New Haven dieselized lines, but you will see them often in Harlem and Hudson Lines. Brand new it is, and just came about 4 to 6 weeks ago.
okay, so they are new. So what do we call them? Shoreliner Vs? ew Shoreliner IVs?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Coolie"
They are still Shoreliner III's.
Carlton,
I was wondering about these cars, because I saw them on the New Haven Line this Wednesday and was confused myself! -Nick
yea well those red striped shoreliners are to match the NH Genesis. when i went to go take the exam for Metro North i did happen to see a shoreliner 1 series with a NH genesis, but it was on the HARLEM LINE?????
"yea well those red striped shoreliners are to match the NH Genesis. when i went to go take the exam for Metro North i did happen to see a shoreliner 1 series with a NH genesis, but it was on the HARLEM LINE?????"
The Shoreliners that I saw on the New Haven Line had the blue stripe, and now you are saying that you saw the red stripers on the Harlem Line? Thats strange, because I know the older "red striped" shoreliners could run with or without the diesal engine, so they had to have pantographs. -Nick
Had to take a ride on the ferry yesterday, since the speed-produced sea breezes were the only salvation in the sweltering heat. I noticed some interesting things in my little excursion:
For once the DOT allowed something wise to happen. With the expected crowds out today, the Barberi-class boats (Andrew Barberi and Samuel Newhouse) were broken out and used instead of the Kennedy-class boats. I assumed previously that they are used for weekdays, so to see them used on holidays was a first for me.
Upon calling at St. George, I notice that the two of the Kennedy-class boats, the Gov. Herbert Lehman and American Legion, are docked and out of service. But I don't see the flagship of this class, the John Kennedy itself, is nowhere in sight. I also see the John Noble docked away from the terminal. Is it also only used for commuter duty?
The ride on the Barberi, although not exactly smooth (especially at stern-side) is a lot smoother than that of the Kennedy. I also see that although the Barberi and Newhouse are pushing twenty, they are both showing signs of hard-useage. And, there was no A/C (was that a DOT oversight when they ordered for the two boats?)
Is there any info on the whereabouts of the John F. Kennedy, and when (or if) the Kennedy-class boats are due to be replaced anytime soon? They (the Kennedy-class) are pushing 40; I do recall that one of them was featured in an "I Love Lucy" episode (I think that it was the Legion).
Disclaimer: No offense to the elder members of this board.
Yeah those Kennedy class boats (well I call them the car boats) give the worst ride. They're slow and often run late it seems. I'm not all that familiar with the SI Ferry fleet, but my preference are the newer "no car" boats with the bucket seats. As far as A/C is concerned, it is usually cool enough on the water that it is not needed. But on a few days each summer, like today, there's no sea breeze and it is BRUTAL with a capital B.
I would like to see higher speed boats on the SI Ferry that could do the trip in 15 minutes or less. Is there a plan for that?
The older boats could and did get faster speeds -- way back in the 60s when I was going to day camp out on Staten Island (the Henry Kaufman campgrounds off Manor Road), we would occassionally time the boats to see how long it took between terminals. The best I can remeber was 19 minutes on the Verrazzano (the worst being an unavoidable 90 minutes on the Merrill one time due to a jumper on a morning trip to Staten Island. The camp couselors had a sit-down with us on the boat after they gave up the rescue effort, but none of us had seen the actual jump and as first graders we were a little too young for the seriousness to hit home).
You'd be wrong about the ferry in 'I Love Lucy'. The show ran from 1951 to 1957. The Kennedy class boats were delivered in 1964. This should have been obvious, as the Kennedy is named for a man shot in 1963.
OK, I sound harsh...
The boat used, if I'm thinking right, was the Mary Murray or the Miss New York.
No A/C on the boats wasn't an oversight. It was rare that it was needed on the existing boats, so it wasn't put on the new boats when they were ordered. I don't believe the replacement boats for the Kennedy class will have it either, but they will have elevators (ADA).
The John A. Noble and Alice Austen were meant to be used for weekend and overnight service. Problem is, one of them is always OOS, and weekend ridership is too heavy. These boats were used for the Brooklyn Ferry when DOT was running it. Summer weekends, they use a piar of car boats, in winter they usually use one Barberi and one Kennedy. Late nights, you get either a mini-ferry or a car boat.
The ferry service is set up so that of the five big boats, one is ALWAYS out of service for some reason. I believe the Kennedy is at Caddell Dry Dock in Mariner's Harbor for an annual inspection. When it's done, one of the other boats will go in. This usually creates a problem if one of the four remaining boats goes down during the day, as the rush hour schedule is for four-boat service. There is no margin for error.
-Hank
Your right, there is almost always one boat undergoing its required coast guard inspection. You very rarely see the whole fleet at St. George.
They also take variuos boats out for training but that is rare (and on a holiday no way).
Best bet is the boat is in dry dock for Coast Guard inspection.
As hank says if one boat is laid up for inspection and another goes down for problems the rush hour schedule gots out the window.
Your right, there is almost always one boat undergoing its required coast guard inspection. You very rarely see the whole fleet at St. George.
They also take various boats out for training but that is rare (and on a holiday no way).
Best bet is the boat is in dry dock for Coast Guard inspection.
As hank says if one boat is laid up for inspection and another goes down for problems the rush hour schedule gots out the window.
You'd be wrong about the ferry in 'I Love Lucy'. The show ran from 1951 to 1957. The Kennedy class boats were delivered in 1964. This should have been obvious, as the Kennedy is named for a man shot in 1963.
The current American Legion is the second boat by that name in the Staten Island Ferry fleet. The original American Legion ran from 1926 to 1963.
I forgot about the first American Legion.
-Hank
Yes! She was the first of the fleet built as an oil burner and the only one tohave a sponsoned hull until the arrival of the Merrell class. Sponsonesd meaning the skin covered the main deck struts, a very attractive pattern and my favorite of them all [First American Legion]. Because the bow design caused too much wash and spray over the main deck they reverted to the then-standard strutted hull for her sisters Dongan Hills, Tompkinsville and Knickerbocker. They were beautiful steamboat classic style!
Offense to oder members of the board! Haha..don't worry about it...we usually have enough squeaks and crunches to remind us, I feel I'm doing OK for 59 but the truth is there. Some other posters have answered your question...I'll elaborate and bring back the days when there were 10 boats [all steam]before the bridge opened, there was 20 minte service on weekends, 3 boats and often an extra for vehicles. The original American Legion [1926] almost identical to the Dongan Hills Class was ususally the spare boat kept under steam at the Tompknsville base, one as now in the shipyard; perhaps they had as many as 5 running at a time in rush hour but i won't swear to it. The "Merrell" class were the same as the "Kennedy" in capacity but the older ones were smaller. Even with the large newest ones allowing for a smaller fleet they are cuting it close...little room for emergencies. Enjoy that gorgeous, short cruise and respite from the heat!
Before the arrival of the Barberi class, they did have a five-boat rush hour schedule. The reason for the change was the better than 1/3 increase in capacity afforded by the new boats. (5000 vs 3500)
-Hank
Were not the Barberi class licensed for 6000 passengers? I read that once but it may have been a press error. So there are now 3 on line in rush hour? Guess they're not "runnin as tight a ship" as I thought.
I don't get to ride NJT very often, so the few times that I do, I buy single tickets.
Several weeks ago, I purchased a one-way ticket from NYC to North Elizabeth. I was going to visit someone for the evening, and then take a bus back.
Unfortuantely, that happened to be the day that all service was suspended on the NE Corridor line for several hours. By the time it was restored, it didn't pay for me to go.
I went to the ticket counter today, as my wife and I did a round trip to South Orange this evening. While I ws buying those tickets, I tried to return the other one.
I was rudely advised that there were no refunds & no exchanges. The clerk then muttered something else under her breath. I was probably better off not hearing it, and so was she.
NJT used to give refunds, as I had done that once several years ago. More insulting, the ticket expires one year from the purchase date, and I will most likely not be using it.
It wasn't very expensive, but certainly NJT could afford to give me a refund, particularly since the need was created by their not being able to provide the service.
This is a new policy that went into effect on April 1, 2002.
Go to :
http://www.njtransit.com/sf_ticketrefund.shtm
for the full details.
Shouldn't NJT make a distinction between a return because the customer changed his mind and a return because the customer bought a ticket to use at a particular time but service was suspended then?
The NJT tickets are not specified for a specific day or time. An unused 1 way ticket is valid for a year.
The only thing that can be suggested is that he write to NJT, explain the entire situation and appeal to their good judgement (what am I saying???)
I know. But someone who bought a ticket to use at a particular time may have no use for that ticket at any other time. The return policies should reflect that.
If I had bought my ticket with a credit card, I'd be very tempted to initiate a chargeback in this case. (Just another reason to use credit cards wherever possible.)
In this case, perhaps the OP would have been better off seeking a refund right away rather than waiting a few weeks. It would be clear that I wasn't trying to cash in on a ticket that had been used but that the conductor never got around to punching.
Incidentally, why don't the railroads have the passengers punch their own tickets before boarding, as on light rail systems with POP? That would solve this problem.
>>I know. But someone who bought a ticket to use at a particular time may have no use for that ticket at any other time. The return policies should reflect that. <<
That would be difficult since a one way ticket is not based on time of day and is not sold that way. NJT has no way to know that he intended to use it at that specific time.
>>If I had bought my ticket with a credit card, I'd be very tempted to initiate a chargeback in this case. (Just another reason to use credit cards wherever possible.) <<
You would have a very tough time on this one. Credit Card issuers have very strict policies on the subject. If the vendor has a published rule on returns/refunds and elects not to waive that rule then you have no right to get a chargeback on your credit card just because they would not give you a refund.
>>Incidentally, why don't the railroads have the passengers punch their own tickets before boarding, as on light rail systems with POP? That would solve this problem. <<
Perhaps but since the majority of NJT passengers are weekly/monthly ticket holders it would not be an effective method.
On a personal note - I visit family in NJ on occasion and I have several one-way tickets that I purchase in advance (avoids having to wait in line and also helps if I am running late). There have been a few times where the train was so crowded that the ticket wasn't collected. That is to my benefit in that I can use it again (what am I supposed to do - throw it away?)
If they had a time stamp like light rail then I "lose out" on the occasional freebee. I am sure others would feel the same way. I am sure you would as well.
Things will be better in the future when they bar code everyone and scan you as you take the train and bill you later. -G-
I didn't try to get a refund that day because the line was a mile long.
I actually did use a credit card, having purchased it at a machine. However, as I have already paid that bill, and given the stated policy, the cost of the ticket isn't worth the aggravation.
At least I got a thread out of it.
clearly, the only thing left to do is ostentaiously give away the ticket next time you are at the departing station. Someone other than NJT should benefit.
Thanks, but I suspect that most people who use North Elizabeth have monthlies.
Things will be better in the future when they bar code everyone and scan you as you take the train and bill you later.
Are they going to put this bar code on your forehead?
What a beastly thing to do!
Elias
It worked in Alien 3 (the Doctor was bar-coded, and you saw it), and a few more science fiction style movies had bar-coded people.
You want bar-coded people? Go see 'Minority Report' and you'll see what it would REALLY be used for.
-Hank
LOL...just got in from seeing that movie, it is excellent.
Peace,
ANDEE
I will......sometime. *lol*
Stuart
Dark Angel on fox.
That would be difficult since a one way ticket is not based on time of day and is not sold that way. NJT has no way to know that he intended to use it at that specific time.
That's why I suggested that, next time, the OP ask for a refund right away. If he bought a ticket shortly before train X's scheduled departure time, train X was cancelled, and he asked for a refund shortly after train X's scheduled deprature time, it's pretty obvious that (a) he probably wanted to take train X, and (b) he didn't use the ticket on another train.
You would have a very tough time on this one. Credit Card issuers have very strict policies on the subject. If the vendor has a published rule on returns/refunds and elects not to waive that rule then you have no right to get a chargeback on your credit card just because they would not give you a refund.
I've gone through three chargebacks, all with the same vendor. (I was signed up for a service with monthly billing. I tried to cancel the service, but I was unable to contact the vendor by phone, mail, and email -- I tried all three.)
Here's how it works. When a chargeback is initiated, the bank puts a credit on the complainant's account and takes the money back from the vendor. The vendor has 30 days to respond. If the vendor lets the 30 days slide (as my vendor did all three times), the credit sticks. Only if the vendor responds within the 30-day window are the merits of the case even considered.
As for the merits of the case -- the vendor's policies aren't necessarily relevant. (Imagine a vendor with an unposted rule of "no refunds no matter what" -- and the merchandise you buy is defective or isn't what the box said it was.) According to the back of a recent credit card statement:
If you have a problem with the quality of goods or services that you purchased with a credit card, and you have tried in good faith to correct the problem with the merchant [i.e., don't do this before asking for a refund], you may not have to pay the remaining amount due on the goods or services. [So far so good.] You have this protection only when the purchase price was more than $50 and the purchase was made in your home state or within 100 miles of your mailing address. [Most banks apply this protection even when these conditions aren't met. Of course, a one-way NJT ticket is unlikely to cost $50 or more.]
Looks like I'd have a definite case, unless my bank opted to throw out my request due to the low purchase price.
Perhaps but since the majority of NJT passengers are weekly/monthly ticket holders it would not be an effective method.
It would be irrelevant. They wouldn't have to validate their tickets. The rest of us would.
On a personal note - I visit family in NJ on occasion and I have several one-way tickets that I purchase in advance (avoids having to wait in line and also helps if I am running late).
No problem with that. Just run over to a validation machine and punch before boarding. Otherwise your ticket isn't valid and, if the conductor comes by, you'll have to pay cash (plus surcharge).
There have been a few times where the train was so crowded that the ticket wasn't collected. That is to my benefit in that I can use it again (what am I supposed to do - throw it away?)
If they had a time stamp like light rail then I "lose out" on the occasional freebee. I am sure others would feel the same way. I am sure you would as well.
No, I would prefer that the people who ride the train actually pay for their rides and those who buy tickets for trains that don't run should get their money back.
Once upon a time I rode MN north to Irvington with my father. (Normally we would have ridden the LIRR, and we each had monthly tickets there) Mom was going to meet us there with the car.
Anyway we bought our tickets in GCT, and apparently the computerized register slips that they used for tickets (instead of nicel pre printed RAILROAD tickets such as the LIRR used in those days, and my yet still use to this day for all I know) looked exactly same as their monthly tickets. (HUMPH)
The conductor just came by and glanced at them as if they were the monthly variety rather than FULL FARE ONE WAYS.
Oh well.... it was't like we'd be riding that line again anytime within 30 years! : )
Elias
LIRR still uses pre-printed tickets. And yes, custom tickets are still hand-stamped.
The ironic thing is that before this policy went into effect and even prior to 9/11, NJ Transit seemed deathly afraid to lose even ONE customer for whatever reason. They even changed the term "penalty" to "on board surchage" for fear of "offending" anybody. They want the trainmen to enforce every single aspect of fare collection, but if one person made a complaint, even if the trainman was 100% in the right, NJT always took the side of the customer, and usually sent him/her a "complinentary" ticket.
Since 9/11, most trains out of New York are so crowded, NJ Transit is trying to discourage extra ridership, especially during the peak hours. That is reflected by the new policy where off peak round trips are NOT accepted on westbound trains leaving New York, Newark, or Hoboken between 4pm-8:30pm. Of course, on the 8:14 pm Raritan Valley train leaving Newark, the train is very light, and there are many people who think it's AFTER the peak period. However, according to the schedule, it is still considered "peak", and as a result, there are many "heated discussions" between the surprised passengers and the traimen who enforce the policy.
The ironic thing is that before this policy went into effect and even prior to 9/11, NJ Transit seemed deathly afraid to lose even ONE customer for whatever reason. They even changed the term "penalty" to "on board surchage" for fear of "offending" anybody. They want the trainmen to enforce every single aspect of fare collection, but if one person made a complaint, even if the trainman was 100% in the right, NJT always took the side of the customer, and usually sent him/her a "complinentary" ticket.
Since 9/11, most trains out of New York are so crowded, NJ Transit is trying to discourage extra ridership, especially during the peak hours. That is reflected by the new policy where off peak round trips are NOT accepted on westbound trains leaving New York, Newark, or Hoboken between 4pm-8:30pm. Of course, on the 8:14 pm Raritan Valley train leaving Newark, the train is very light, and there are many people who think it's AFTER the peak period. However, according to the schedule, it is still considered "peak", and as a result, there are many "heated discussions" between the surprised passengers and the trainmen who try to enforce the policy.
April 1st, huh? Figures.
I looked at the NJT announcement, and what seems to be missing is any explanation of just why they've adopted the no-refund policy. What could their reasons be?
Same reason they raised the on-board service charge: a way to indirectly make more money without raising the fare further. If people can't refund tickets, they either find reason to use them or let them waste. Either way, NJT gets to keep the green.
Without minimizing the point about the ridiculousness of the no refund policy (especially when they couldn't provide service) as well as the rude service, why couldn't you just use your North Elizabeth ticket on the South Orange train? Both stations are "Zone 5". When I used to ride NJT frequently back in the early 90's, a ticket was good on other branches as long as it covered the appropriate zones.
CG
Thanks for your suggestion! I have never known that before. (I've known about the zones but not sure if you could use a ticket on another branch).
Right! Any NJT tickets can be used for service between points other than on your ticket if the fare is the same or less.(Unless it is during peak times or if you end at MY, Newark Penn, Newark Broad or Hoboken or if you transfer there during poeak hours.)
Thanks - that will greatly increase my likelihood of being able to use this thing.
When I wa a kid going thru the old roll signs, I NEVER saw ANY RJ or NX signs on ANY rolling stock. Can anybaody tell me what cars were used on those lines????? TOny
Usually 27/30's ... the NX was particularly amusing because there WAS NO ROLLSIGN for most 27/30's as far as I knew. Instead they put a "necklace" on the front chains of all the lame things to do ... However, leave it to Willie Rosenberg to find the ONE NX train that had the designator up top for it ...
IIRC the NX was dropped right after those new signs had been spliced in.
Always the way at the TA ... I'd never seen the RJ necklace ... what a STUPID concept. :)
>>Always the way at the TA ... I'd never seen the RJ necklace ... what a STUPID concept. :)<<
I have a slide of an R-16 with the red (RJ) necklace sign at Essex St. Those R-16's, dirty as hell still had their original number signs let alone any lettered route signs.
I bought an original, yet abbreviated R-27 front route sign at the Transit Museum years ago. I noticed there were two (RR) designations. One (RR) was a stick on type sign. I started to peel away the stick on sign very slowly as not to damage it. I kept peeling away the sign and without any damage, viola !, (RJ) was underneath. The sign still was the residue of glue, but I'm not removing that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. That train designation always reminded me of the "but ya doesn't has to call me Johnson" joke ... dunno why. Gotta hand it to the TA though back in Lindsay's day. They DID try out a lot of interesting routings and sheetcanned most of them.
I've a poster of Raymond J. Johnson, Jr. with all the different names you could call him. Those were good comercials.
You're a sick man. Turn yourself in. For homeland defense, if no other reason, man. :)
Hey, I never asked him what his name was.:-)
That would have gone on for longer than the "Susquehanna HAT company" ... visit Unca Harry's place and take in the "Improved Accessibility for Rodents at Stillwell" thread over yonder ... you can PLAY the skit as long as you have something that'll play WAV files ... or Apple's player thingy ... Heypaul's LATEST new obsession. But ya doesn't HAVE to call me Johnson. :)
I'd like to see the original commercial once again which started the whole thing. Good old Norm Crosby.
"You can call me Ray
Or you can call me Jay
Man, did that get old fast"
Krusty The Clown
Here's an R16 RJ at Dekalb. You can almost hear that little old lady, talking to the guy in the uniform, saying "What the &%$#@ is an RJ?"
"Well ... you can call me Ray or you can call me Jay or you can call me Ray Jay Jay ... but ya doesn't has to call me "RJ"" ... agggh.
Which begs the question: who shot the RJ?
Sorry to say, I have no idea ...
Actually you could call him RJ. Or RJJ. Or RJJ, Jr.
Here goes:
Ohhh you can call me Ray.
Or you can call me Jay.
Or you can call me Johnny.
Or you can call me Sonny.
Or you can call me Junie.
Or you can call me Ray Jay.
Or you can call me R. J.
Or you can call me R. J. J.
Or you can call me R. J. J., Jr.
Buy ya doesn't has to call me Johnson.
No wonder that train got the hook. :)
Those Anheuser Busch Natural Light commercials came out in 1980, long after the RJ had been dropped.
Chris: Great picture. I did ride the RJ a few times but this is the first one I ever saw with the necklace. The NX used a blue necklace.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
To which the conductor replied, "Hell if I know, lady."
I was on an R32 "NX" back in early '68, and I do believe it had the rollsign for "NX". The one time I saw an "RJ" it was deadheading back from Metropolitan, coming towards me on the Williamburgh Bridge; this was during one of my 1968 rides. Oh yes, it was an R27/30, the sign had the rounded letters.
wayne
Wild ... of course, being from the north end of the system, didn't get to see many of them. When I worked for the TA, had more than enough trouble on the Arnines trying to find "Brighton Beach" since only a few had that. Route signs usually had to go to the end of the roll or leave "Coney Island" in place.
Never did an NX or RJ though ...
Did you ride it on the Sea Beach express run? Fred would have been drooling all over the railfan window if he'd ever ridden on one.:-)
Fred and I rode the Triplexes over Memorial Day down Sea Beach middle to Coney Island yard. Fortunately, the foam was kept in check.
I did it again a few weeks later aboard an R-32 running express to Kings Highway from 59th St due to a midday GO.
--Mark
Yeah, Fred was wearing a silly grin the whole time, too.:-)
Great googa mooga man...you knew Willie Rosenberg too. I knew him vaguely back in the late 50's..and I have a picture of his from about the late 40's: a NY Central K11 [steam] on the Harlem Div.Wille still kicking, and out and about?
Actually didn't know Willie at all ... sorry to get you excited, just wanted to make sure he was properly credited for his picture. And I'm aware of his legendary shots of the strange and the obscure. But no name dropping other than photo credit intended ... maybe Unca Dave P who runs this site might know if he's still around ...
>>Wille still kicking, and out and about?<<
Last I heard, Willie Rosenberg was alive, but not doing well health wise.
Bill "Newkirk"
Education time for the young: Who is Willie Rosenberg?
>>Education time for the young: Who is Willie Rosenberg?<<
Willie Rosenberg is a railfan whose forte' was NYC Subway to my knowledge. His photography goes way back to the 50's from what I've seen. Pretty impressive stuff, lots of shots of the old equipment we talk and drool about here. Back in the late 70's when I first met him, I immediately indentified with him because of his Minolta XE-7 camera he swears by. I have the same model too. Quite a charachter.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ahhhhh. Thanks.
Here's another photo of an NX on Fred's favorite express stretch, dated 4/11/68 - the day before the NX left the scene for good:
Here's a pic of an RJ. Looks as though they used R-16s as well:
Those necklaces do look kind of primitive.
Ever ride an R1/R9? That's primative!
BULLSHIRT! Arnines grew HAIR on your chest! Ever hear of ANYONE requiring VIAGRA while the Arnines plied NYCTA? WORD. :)
Well, bare bulbs, exposed fans, and pneumatiuc doors are as primative to me as the Pony Express was to you....LOL
Go ahead, snicker away you freaking ***SLACKER*** heh. I'll have you know that the PONY EXPRESS, besides screwing itself into the ground in 10 months, had a better performance record than ANY railroad today. Unless of course, the horse caught on fire, Enron, TimeWarner, WorldCon, Qwest, Halliburton or Harken Energy *FED* the horses, in which case they'd be dead.
Once upon a time sonny, people GOT LAID ... and it was the "romantic candlelit subway cars" that put MANY in the mood. Ain't no REASON to bless a cab these days ... heh. And those old girls balanced around 55 MPH between stations. You show me how modern subway cars can do that without benefit of the spam that my WIFE gets daily, "Surprise them with a bigger p*nis" ... ummmm ... well ... yeah, that'd be one HELL of a surprise. Y'all actually SELL anything today sending that to my wife? Granted, I ain't republican or democrap, if it feels good do it, if it feels REALLY good, do it again, and if it's a mojo, then don't STOP doing it ... but hey ... them Arnines didn't NEED air-conditioning, they moved more air than a FEDDERS when they was trickin' ...
Um, okay.
Heh. Just funnin' for the folks. Don't feel bad though, I get all these spams about "increasing my bust size" ... ummm ... thanks guys, but I really don't wanna drink more beer thankyouverymuch. :)
>>Education time for the young: Who is Willie Rosenberg?<<
A strange thought just crossed my mind. Blessing the cab of an R-142!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Been done, so I hear. Certainly would seem a lot easier in one of those than in the broom closet of an Arnine. I *know* one of those handles on the wall opens up the Murphy bed, still trying to figure out which ONE. :)
Primitive? That would be the R-1 and R-4 in their last days. Nothing worked. Fans turning at half speed. Lights blinking on and off.
Now, the R-6-2, THAT was a mighty machine. None of the others in the class had the heft that those beasts had. Perhaps it was their GE pedigree. Picture yourself flying along the Queens IND, bull gears howling away at A above middle C, pitching from side to side like a ship in a storm, one of the penultimate subway experiences.
wayne
You forgot to mention the heat being on when it was 95 degrees.
Those oldtimers were mah-velous. A glorious cacaphony of sounds. Music to my ears. And if you got a lead motor with no headlights, you were in for a real treat.
Oh yeah....how about riding in a dark, pre-GOH R42 as it whizzes up Central Park West on old unwelded rail tracks? The psychadelic experience as you scream past each incandescent tunnel light, briefly lighting up all the faces on the train, only to go pitch black once again.
Damn, those were the days.
Wow, I knew about the NX necklace but I never knew they had it for the RJ also. Wonder if any survived?
The R-16 apparently popped up in RJ service as well.
RJ used the J lines compliment of R27/R30/16's. The NX used the R27/R30/R32's assigned to the N.
About a year ago, somebody posted (and I downloaded) a picture of enamel, MTA color-signs (the type that might be found on a station wall or entrance) for the MJ, NX, and RJ.
Does anyone know (if the poster reads this, please help) if those signs were:
a) actuallly posted along the lines in question;
b) prepared, but never posted, in light of the short lives of those route designations (the conditon looks excellent);
c) made in the TA sign shop by subway buffs;
d) really good counterfeits
If this is the picture you are talking about the answer is a).
These bullet signs were hanging on the sign over the platform edge, some even still have the mounting flanges on the back.
They weren't up for long so they are in pretty good condition. The person I purchased these from was selling many old subway signs, including old porcelain enamel station signs.
Thank You. That is the picture.
Well, I was on the LIRR and had the front railfan window all to myself. However, I made the mistake of using the bathroom, and when I came back it was taken: the cab door was now open, blocking most of the view; and the rest of the view was taken up by a kid and his father.
When faced with a difficult situation like this, would you choose bathroom and risk the window, or maintain yourself at the window and hope for the best?
Hmmm. Depends on how bad I had to go. If i was traveling over virgin territory, I would stay at the window. But if it was old ground, I would go to the bathroom.
Hmmm. Depends
LOL!
NOT... Depends are too leaky. Too bad Attends are so hard to come by.
Some of the store brands aren't too bad!
Hheheheheee........
Heypaul swears by Depends.:-)
When you gotta go, you gotta go...
So I have heard, but the store brands *are* better.
I use a generic brand for my patients that is much much better,
but you gotta buy them in case lots. (In case you gotta go lots!) : )
Elias
External blader. Get a bag thats attached to your leg. Go whenever you like.
or wear a diaper if you have to do the "other" thing.
Maybe this thread has gone far enough...
Can humans do that standing upright?
Like RonInBayside said, this thread has gone far enough.
Peace,
ANDEE
I understand what Ron said. But if people can solve the need of a Bathroom, the railfanning can go alot further. Potty jokes aside that's what this thread was about in the first place.
In seriousness you are correct, it started out as a logical thread. This type of thread always seems to turn into this eventually though. I started a totally serious thread weeks ago about the condition of the subway restrooms and you should have seen what that turned into! I believe half the thread had to be deleted!
From the original posting:
Bathroom vs. Railfanning
Posted by 4thAvenueLocal on Fri Jul 5 02:26:00 2002
"When faced with a difficult situation like this, would you choose bathroom and risk the window, or maintain yourself at the window and hope for the best?"
I thought the thread started out about someone who was at the railfan window, had to do something. When they came back, the window was taken by someone else. Of course some jokes were made. I'm guilty of makeing a few cracks myself. But I tried to bring it back to a serious issue by "seriously" suggesting one do what they have to do before getting on the train. And then railfanning would go on. Later on in the thread it was brought up about the conditions in some public rest rooms.
I guess some of us would wonder why the question came up at all. Most people know what they have to do by the time they're four years of age.
If all the railfanners were 4 years old, I wouldn't mind. But sometimes they are old enough to be their fathers. And they ought to know better.
If you don't mind wetting yourself, by all means stay at the window.
:0)
Sign of a true Foamer.
>>> Sign of a true Foamer <<<
No, the true foamers wet themselves anyway from excitement, no matter how recently they went to the rest room.
Tom
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd stay at the window as long as I could hold it in.
Then you're screwed when someone's in the bathroom for as long as you can't hold it.
That can happen anytime. Generally in taking a long trip I try not to drink alot. What does annoy me, is in bathrooms in NYC, especially those in Grand Central and Penn station, people are in there forever. Sometimes I have to wait as long as 10, 15 minutes for someone to leave the stall. There really should be time limits for restrooms in busy places, say no more than 5 minutes or so.
I don't wanna know what some guys are doing in there, I'm sure it aint number 1 or 2!
You can always run off into a McDonald's or Burger King or any fast food chain. Order a drink worst comes to worst.
Order a drink worst comes to worst.
Nah... Just ask for the empty cup.
I'd suggest visiting the donicker before getting on the train.
You should've just used the bathroom, threw the person who took your spot away from the railfan window bodily and slammed the engineer's door shut.
Do not try this in real life! You have been warned!
Put a knife to the person's back. And pull out a LIRR rule book and show that to the engineer. Yoou might want to have him close the door first so he doesn't see the knife incident.
Go to the toilet BEFORE you get on the train. You may not feel like going. But if you go before, you won't have to do it while. And on a moving train, there may not be a place to do it.
AHA the real reason you guys hate locked end doors
AHA the real reason you guys hate locked end doors
That reminds me of the old LIRR coaches. Those vestibules sometimes smelled worse than the bathrooms on the trains. Apparently, some people used the vestibules rather than the bathrooms on the trains.
And you never serviced a coupler someone 'let loose upon.' The stench reaches down to the first axle and it's worse with an increase in humidity and temperature. Nothing like TA 'Tough Guy Solution' to bring out the smell of a Springs morning urinal disinfectation. Stuff is so nasty it peels my fingernails. CI Peter
REAL subway fans know which side the contact rail is on everywhere they go.
AMEN!
Last night(Thursday) at about 6:00pm there was a call for T/O who are R143 trained to transfer sets from Canaries Yard to ENY. It sound like something very inported to pay T/O overtime on a holiday were we get an extra $2.00 to work.
I think this had to do with the R142 pull apart yesterday.
If any one has more info please post.
Robert
There was a rumor flying around they were pulling all 143/142's put I think it is just to cycle them for inspection.
Maybe Peter can jump in??
I don't think you get the $2 for 4th July and second on the holiday it's all probies who are not 143 qualified. It has haapened before on regular days.
How does the TA compensate its employees who work holidays (like July 4)? You mention $2.00 per hour, is that it? An extra $2.00 per hour? When I worked for Con Edison, union employees recieved 250% of base pay for every hour worked on a company holiday.
You get $2 an hour for major holidays, plus 8 hours bonus pay. So if you worked July 4th, you would be making the equivalent of double time plus 8.22% for an 8 hour shift. Anything after 8 hours nets 1 1/2X + 8.22%
I heard that on the speaker at WTC right before my last E run last night. I was thinking I might like to take that overtime, but I had an early Canarsie job this morning.
So this morning, there were two 143's that were B/O due to some "propulsion fault". I had started inspecting one and saw that, then was told that the put-in track schedule was changed because those couldn't go out.
The third put-in I had had a door fault. The TSS came and cut it out (I was told not to), then it went into service for the rush, but then I had to lay it back up. Another one came in and I had to bring out a replacement and then lay thast one up too. It had a door enable button that got stuck. Was scary seeing so many of the new trains going out of service left and right like that. But they should be back.
So the technicians from Kawasaki plus Car Equipment came and fixed the door. (had to open the ceiling and ad panels). When I left, they were getting ready to start fixing the door enable button. The technician had to go back to ENY to get stuff, and they would have to remove a panel to do work on that. I'm not sure whether they were going to work on the ones with the propulsion fault after that.
So that was at least four that were out of service today, though two of those will probably go back in for the evening rush. I don't know about the one that went to ENY last night. Several others remained in service.
Almost the first 100 are in, and all the slants are gone. I think the modifieds are getting ready to start going as well.
Below is a link to a photo of a Boston steeplecab, #14; the photo was taken in 1975. Does anyone have any information about when #14 was built or by whom? Does anyone know what happened to it? I'm pretty sure Seashore never got it, but is it still around, or has it been scrapped? Did anyone at least save some parts?
Frank Hicks
http://abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?june02/06-12-02/MBTa14atEverettYard3-28-75Sz.jpg
Frank, I think that's the one Seashore does have: From our roster:
0514 Boston, MA - 1914 Boston Elevated None DE Steeple Cab Locomotive acquired in 1976
"Frank, I think that's the one Seashore does have"
Well, for pete's sake. You're right! I probably should have looked at that roster before opening my mouth...
I'm glad to see it was preserved - that's a pretty neat looking piece of equipment! Do you know what condition it's in, or where it's stored? I don't remember seeing it when I was at Seashore in 2000, but the place is so vast I probably shouldn't be surprised that I don't recall it.
Thanks for the info!
Frank Hicks
I was reading the history of the IND and came across IND Ghosts...
"subway tunnel along 73rd Ave. right to Alley Pond Park"
I did a little exploring and there seems to be a concrete box (that somewhat looks like a subway tunnel entrance) at 73rd Terrace (which is direct east of 73rd Avenue) and Park Drive (which parallels the Van Wyck). This concrete box is about 30ft x 30ft. Only the top of the box is fenced off and it has 4 vents on top. Directly west of this "box" is the Jamaica yard's turnaround track.
Anyone have more info on this? I have researched and looked at maps and came up with nothing. I don't see it anywhere other than here and this box where an entrance "COULD" be has me wonding.
Thanx all. :)
There were plans for two subway lines to be extended, joined and them the combined line sent to Bayside. I don't remember which ones, but perhaps elsewhere on this site...
Maybe under the History of the IND, since it included a lot of extensions in the Second System phase.
I live near there and I remember that box being installed
in modern times. I doubt it has anything to do with this
73 Ave subway. IIRC it is a utility structure of some sort
(water, sewer or electric).
I figured that since there is no further info on it. I just found it interesting that its near the Jamaica yard and the rumors of the 73rd Ave subway. :) Thanx for the info.
I saw this flick yesterday. The subway sequences featured a fairly realistic portrayal of New York's subway tunnels IMHO, and the R-32 exterior looked remarkably good. Even the interiors didn't look that bad. On top of that, there were no graffiti! One detail caught my eye right away: the windows on the door leaves. They were set higher, a la the R-27/30s, and did not line up with the windows on the car sides they way they do on the real R-32s. I got a chuckle out if the way they disguised Church Ave. as 81st St. For once Hoyt-Schermerhorn wasn't used....
I can't wait to see this movie.
> Church Ave. as 81st St.
I don't think that was Church Avenue. The color tile band in the station they showed in the movie had three rows of yellow tiles. The color tile band in the Church Avenue Station has two rows of purple tiles. I don't know what station that was in the movie. Does anyone else here know?
By the way, they also showed signals hanging from the ceiling of the tunnel. Where did they film that?
- Lyle Goldman
[By the way, they also showed signals hanging from the ceiling of the tunnel. Where did they film that?]
Those "signals" were added later. In the scene deconstruction, there's one "angle" that shows the various objects hanging from the ceiling of the tunnel as yellow boxes with X's in them.
But did you catch the ceiling on the R-32 in MIB II? Axleflow fans! Apparently, either the set designer hasn't been on a NYC subway car in about 15 years, or he's a closet fan (no pun intended) of the R-33WFs. :-)
i think that was a R30
Yep. Going by the side windows, it was a makeup of an R-30 (possibly one of those R-30s that were sitting alongside Interstate 5 near Burbank a couple of years ago, or based on a copy of its interior), though the inside doors seem to have been updated to resemble a more modern-looking car.
Nobody noticed that even on the exterior shot, even though it was an R-32 body, the windows were still R-30. I had always dreamed of something like this).
Just this morning while sitting on the board, on ch4, they were doing the making of the movie with Al Roker, and they showed how it was all computer enhanced. They even had Roker ridre the worm through the tunnel and face him when he bit the car in half.
So it looks like a real R-30 interior, and the exterior had an R-32 exterior digitally pasted over all but the window to make it look more modern.
I've noticed from the TV ads that the subway cars have the grab-bars of the R40 and R42 but the rollsigns of the R16-R38.
:-) Andrew
so considering that this subway car has so many inconsistancies, is it fair to say that it is 100% digital and not a real car at all?
no, its an R30!!!!!!!!!!! THE R30s DO EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND CURRENTLY SHOULD HAVE MUCH LARGER #'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
larger #s meaning their fleet size
I guess you better blame the problems on ''JEFF''[blocking the tunnels,and eatting up trains... you 'd think there wasn't enough food in N.Y]!!!!
Church Ave is now the station of choice for filming movies. It was extensively used in HBO's "Subway Stories" disguised as Penn Station, Broad St. and Times Sq.
Why church street?
The express tracks are not in service, allowing trains to run in/out without interrupting regular service.
That makes sense. I guess most of the other abandoned stations such as lower 9th Ave, lower Bergen, lower 42, etc are getting to be in too bad of shape to use anymore.
Why did Hoyt-Schermerhorn fall out of favor?
I don't know, that one used to be used quite often in many movies, Coming to America, etc.
I lived in Church Av my whole life now (27yrs), I remember a couple of times when the C/R announced if you wanted to get off at Church Av, do not board the last 2 cars. I remember seeing a R32 on the southbound express track about 3-4 years ago at church av...it was out of service and kept goin back and forth between the relay and back into the station. It was signed as a N and wasn't full length, I didn't get a chance to count.
Jamaica Center
Special (upside down)
N Bdwy/Astoria/Sea Beach
now i would have dug it big time if A R-142 or some transvere cab
car had been the one that was .........""eaten alive""
i guess that is why i dont go to movies .........................!
As recording to NJ Transit's website
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Montclair Connection
The Montclair Connection, opening in the fall of 2002, is a public transportation enhancement that will combine
NJ TRANSIT's Boonton Line,west of Pine Street, with its Montclair Branch to form the new Montclair-Boonton Line. This rail infrastructure improvement will allow
NJ TRANSIT to provide direct train service to Newark for Boonton Line customers and direct service to midtown Manhattan for many customers along the new Montclair-Boonton Line, as well as service to Hoboken. Montclair-Boonton Line service will include electric-powered trains, which are quieter than traditional diesel-powered trains. Although the number of trains moving along the line will increase,
NJ TRANSIT will limit the number of diesel trains that will pass through the communities of Montclair, Glen Ridge and Bloomfield.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a link to the Route Map. Please Copy or paste the link
http://www.njtransit.com/images/an_capitalprojects_montclair_map.jpg
It opens on Sept. 30, 2002. So NJT has electrified the entire Boonton Line? What happened to the current Montclair Branch line?
The current Montclair Line is still there. After Bay Street, the line merges with the Boonton Line which is being electrified to Great Notch. Boonton Stations East of Great Motch will be abandoned. The Boonton Line West of Great Notch Yard is still diesel except for a brief stretch where it shares tracks to Dover with the Morristown Line.
Clarification: The Connection will be built to Walnut Street on the Boonton Line. East of Walnut Street the abandonment will occur.
What is the difference between the announcements on the R142's and the R142A's? They sounded identical to me when I rode R142 #6865 yesterday after coming from the fireworks display.
The female voice is informative, and the male voice is not cheerful. Why did SubTalkers note this difference in the first place?
The male is Charlie Pellett (sp?) on all trains. Each line has a different female, although I think the 2's female announces the transfers (but not the stations) on the 5.
The female makes transfer announcements on the 5? I rode an R142 on the 2 and the R142A on the 6 and noticed no difference in who says each portion of the announcement.
Sorry, my mistake -- Charlie usually (but not always) makes the transfer announcements.
I think the only time Charlie doesn't do the transfer announcements is when the transfer is from IRT express to express (2 to 4 and 5, 5 to 2 and 3) or IRT express to local during rush hours (2 to 1 and 9, 5 to 6). He doesn't do any of the transfers on the R143.
Who's Charlie Pellet?
- Lyle Goldman
Charlie Pellett is the "Stand clear of the closing doors" guy.
I think Bloomberg's got the wrong picture up for the personal safety of the announcer. Anyone who's been on an R-143 can identify the voice of "watch the CLOOOOoooooosing doors" as the horse on the left.
LOL!!!!!! :-) -Nick
lol...Actually it also has a "Disney" sounding voice. That "Watch the CLOOOOOOOOsing Doors, please" sounds very much like the voice on the Walt Disney Wold monorail.
... And you thought they sent him to the GLUE factory. :)
Mister Ed was a ZEBRA!
I guess Charlie got rid of his accent. I never would've guessed that he was British from hearing the all announcements he does in the R142s and 143s. How did you find out that he did the "Stand clear" voice?
I don't know how David knew, but I knew from reading a news article.
Railfanners noted the difference because they can't stand 'Traffic and Weather Todd Glickman.'
"Railfanners noted the difference because they can't stand 'Traffic and Weather Todd Glickman.'"
The future voice of the R-160! -Nick
@ did he sound >>>>>>>>>DRUNK...????...............lol!!!
Well, I'm off on vacation for the next three weeks, heading across the pond with my folks to picturesque Lithuania. We're having a big family reunion on the 20th and 21st; it'll be great to see my cousins again. No plans for railfanning; other than passenger rail service, there are no trams or subways anywhere in the country, although Vilnius and Kaunas do have trolley buses.
See you all on the 29th.
Enjoy your trip Steve: remember those countries are quite small and it isn't more than a few hours sometimes to reach cities that have trams and/or metros. Hope I'm being some help.
Wouldn't a side trip to St. Petersburg by nice? Fabulous trolley system in a westernized city. Almost like being able to time travel to the U.S. c.1920.
My daughter is studying Russian. Maybe in a few years she can translate for me, like my wife did in Germany. :-)
Enjoy your trip....wish i was going....
Enjoy your trip, Steve!
wayne
Be safe.
I love you
Yesterday around 9:00p on the message board at Penn Sta. NY, there was this message:
WELCOME TO PENN STATION NY
DUE TO WIRES DOWN WEST OF NEW HAVEN
BE DELAYED ENROUTE
SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE
R - INDICATES A RESERVED TRAIN
When we came back from the fireworks display around 10:45p, the message was still there.
Did the heat cause the wires to come down when a train's pantograph hit it? Anyone have any details?
Did the heat cause the wires to come down when a train's pantograph hit it?
No, a firework flew past the wire, got stuck to it and exploded, causing the wire to break.
No -- "wires down" is the railroad term for saying that for whatever reason, the wires have snapped and the track is out of service. Likely reasons are wind, or simply a pantograph accident pulling the wires down.
AEM7
With the NH's old catenary, a possibility is that the heat caused the wires to droop, and thus increased the possibility of a pan snagging.
-Hank
Was the catenary from NY to Boston built before the segment from NY to D.C.? AFAIK, the PRR built Newark Penn Sta. in 1935 as part of their electrification project.
Thus, is the catenary from D.C. to NYP in better shape than the one to Boston?
NEC electrification dates
GCT-NHV 1890s (By the NYNH&H)
PHL-Paoli 1909
PHL-WAS 1920s
SHELL-NYP-PHL 1935
NHV-BOS 1999
Some of the dates are approximate
Is the electrical voltage, current, and frequency the same in all segments of electrification?
No
BOS-NHV = 25kV 60Hz
NHV-GCT = 12.5kV 60Hz
SHELL-WAS = 11kV 25Hz
Some parts of SHELL-NYP and SHELL-GCT is also 3rd rail and has screwy voltages like 750VDC. I dont rememvber
750 volts DC is correct. It isn't particularly screwy, though - its the standard voltage for MUs employed by Metro-North and LIRR.
MNRR's third rails read 700 volts. You sure that isn't the correct voltage?
LIRR is 750.
I wasn't disputing that, I was asking only about MNRR's.
Actually the segment to Washington is 12kV, as noted on the orange, upside down triangular stickers on Arrow III MU's which operate from NY to Trenton.
You need to not answer these questions and just tell me to.
Here are the CORRECT answers.
GCT-STM 1908 (By the NYNH&H)
PHL-Paoli 1915
NYP-SHELL 1918
STM-NHV 1918
TRE-PHL-WAS 1930
TRE-NYP 1933
PHL-HBG 1939
NHV-BOS 1999
Can we be sure that the cause of the problem wasn't the BMTman playing with crane car W-3 and said "oops" when moving the boom?
?
I didn't know Branford was connected to the NEC. Oh yes, I forgot about the Eash Haven siding. Yikes!
-Stef
I mean East Haven. Sorry for the typo!
-Stef
Somebody forget to pull down the trolley pole at the end of the run? Bustini bustini ... :)
Yeah, that's a problem. Someone got carried away. Surely He must've realized he wasn't on track anymore! Nooooooooooo!
-Stef
I guess we should be grateful that the compressor was running. (smirk)
The overhead ends before the track does at Short Beach but operators forget that as they try to use every inch of the track.
BMTMan might have turned off the wrong circut breaker and caused the problem.
What lies and falsehoods...besmirching my good name...I'll see you in court buddy...
You said "Court", now Dave will have to shut down the board once more.
GRRRRR dont ruin it BMT MAN!!!!
Whenever power is out on the NH line MNRR scrambles to get engine-hauled trains running to the nearest place past the problem where power is still available and trains can turn, people then are transferred to MUs for the rest of the trip.
What does Amtrak do in such situations?
Somebody had to do some measurements, so here they are. The conclusion: the 7 train can pass under the lower 8th Ave platform provided you implement a down gradient of 2.5% from the west end of the Times Square tail tracks to 8th Ave. The 7 platform is 3' below sea level and the lower 8th Ave platform is at sea level or maybe 2' above sea level, so the extended 7 tracks need to lose 10 or 12 feet of altitude over the course of nearly 500 feet. This is a very reaosnable gradient of at most 2.5%.
Here are the numbers:
From http://www.topozone.com/, with interpolation:
Elevation of 41st and 7th: 55’
Elevation of 41st and 8th: 44’
The probable error is very small: 41st St has a quite constant slope on this block, so interpolation from the topo map should be pretty good.
7 platform:
Steps down from 41st and 7th:
25 to upper mezzanine
20 to 1/2/3 platform
30 (approximation; there is a bit of ramp involved) to lower mezzanine
18 to 7 platform
This puts the 7 platform 93 steps down, or (at 7.5” per step), 58’ down, or 3’ below sea level.
Aqueduct Special platform:
Steps down from 41st and 8th:
28 to mezzanine (the steps I counted were at 40th; but both the mezzanine and the sidewalk slope down slightly from 41st to 40th)
18 to platform
estimate 25 to lower platform (maybe only 22; see below)
This puts the lower platform 71 steps down, or 44.5’ down, which corresponds very closely with the number cited elsewhere of 41+ feet down. 44’ down would be exactly sea level.
The 7 platform is extremely level. You can tell by looking at the wall tiles. If there’s any slope, new rows of tiles need to appear or disappear, because the tiles are laid horizontal
So, the 7 line has to lose about 10 or 12 feet to run below the lower 8th Ave platform (assuming 15’ clearance needed between levels that have tracks).
The west end of the 7 platform is 380’ west of the center of 7th Ave. The distance from 7th to 8th Aves. is 0.20 mi., or 1056’. You also need to keep some of the tail track west of the platform, or else the capacity of the TSQ station would decrease dramatically during construction. The tail track appears to be at least 200’ long (or at least let’s assume you need that much tail track to allow trains to come into TSQ quickly), so the west end of the tail track is about 580’ west of 7th Ave.
That gives you 1056’ – 580’ = 476’ in which the 7 tracks have to lose 10’ to 12’ of altitude, or at most 2.5% gradient, which is quite reasonable.
And I bet no one in the TA's engineering department can gainsay this (mostly, because I believe no one there has actually searched the archives -- or even knows where to search -- to find the actual data).
I also bet that the cops'd arrest you if you brought a yardstick into the TS station to measure the rise in steps from the 7 platform up to the street.
This seems to be the great state secret of the NYC subway.
'Sea level' is a difficult term. We all know what we want it to mean, but there are parts of the oceans where sea level is lower or higher than other parts, independent of the action of the tides. It's mainly a local measure.
I'm using "sea level" as the US Geological Survey defines it and uses it for its topographic map of the midtown Manhattan area. Whatever that is, it should be consistent from 7thvAve to 8th Ave.
I admit I did feel very conspicuous when I was pacing off the length of the 7 platform and then peering down the tail tracks to eyeball their length.
What percentage of the passengers going to the Javits Center on an extended 7 line would not enter at Times Square (be on the 7 from G.C. or Queeens)? A Light Rail or a shuttle that connects to the Time Sqaure Station would only inconvience the above people. Most passengers would be transfering from the IND, BMT or 7th Ave. IRT lines anyway. Extend the L kine from 14th through the Javits Center to Times Square would also be a good idea. Less disruption (14th instead of 41 St) for construction.
Too bad the old High Line couldn't be used as an extension from the 14th Street Line uptown; but any suggestion to re-use that line would result in the world'd largest NIMBY Convention.
'Course that is the best route, and should be used. As to the nimby, hearing protection anyone?
There is the small matter of the difference in grade between the 14th Street subway and the old freight line.
There is the small matter of the difference in grade between the 14th Street subway and the old freight line.
There are lots of times where a subway emerges from the tunnel to become an elevated line. This should work there also.
There are lots of times where a subway emerges from the tunnel to become an elevated line. This should work there also.
Yeah, but then you're talking REALLY serious changes in elevation. I'd guess the High Line is at least 25' above the surface, perhaps 30'. The L tracks are at least 12' underground, probably more. You're talking 40' ... at a 2% grade you're talking 2,000' of track.
Then there are the alignment problems. What're you gonna do, put in a huge loop through the West Village and/or newly-fashionable West Chelsea filled with expensive art galleries?
Plus, and perhaps most important, there's only a mile of the High Line, and I've seen estimates of $40 million to bring it up to standard. I bet you could tunnel-bore under Ninth Avenue from 34th to 14th for cheaper than that.
No way. Never.
Well, I guess that ends that idea........
No. Tunnel boar would be at least 2 billion dollars, 1 billion if your luck.
A Light Rail or a shuttle that connects to the Time Sqaure Station would only inconvience the above people.
An LIRR shuttle that connects with Penn Sta could be implemented within a few months and at less than $1 million.
Can they spare the platform space for a shuttle at Penn in the rush? I though that place was plugged solid.
They run trains to and from the yard during the rush. All they would have to do is run some of those trains with pax.
true.
Thank you so much for the info. I had previously inquired about whether the 8th Avenue-IND lower level platform obstructed the Crosstown-IRT. No one seemed to have the data. It is quite heartening to hear that there is at least some room for an extension to pass under the lower level.
Of course, it still isn't that easy. The 8th Avenue platform may rest on piles, and will certainly have a fairly substantial slab of about 18" to 24" thick. The only cross-section I have of an IND tunnel is of the Crosstown-IND in the vicinity of Newtown Creek. No piles are shown.
But still, this is good news. I always said that this superfluous lower level platform should be demolished for construction of a Javitz extension. Why let a disused platform stand in the way of a useful extension?
MATT-2AV
"The 8th Avenue platform may rest on piles, and will certainly have a fairly substantial slab of about 18" to 24" thick."
My calculations were based on a clearance of 15' between levels. Maybe if there is a complicated support structure a few more feet are needed. But if you measure steps in stations where trains pass directly over each other, usually 15' or 16' is enough clearance.
Ted Williams died today. Just think of the many people who took the old Low-Vs to Yankee Stadium to see him lock horns with Dimaggio and Mantle. Though I am a lifetime Yankee fan, I am saddened by his passing. Goodbye Teddy Ballgame. You will be missed.
E_DOG
*takes his Yankees cap and joisey off, and MOMENTARILY puts on a Bawston Red Socks cap and joisey* Farewell to him. *elbows the bugle player to play "Taps"*
Stuart
Story here ... deferred maintenance costly:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/story.jsp?story=312089
The many accidents "over there" since privatization have blown proponents of privatization INCLUDING ME who once was, out of the water.
Yeah, the "privitization" craze has sorta smacked the wall. Sorta like buying your electricity from Enron ... dunno what's WRONG with me, I just don't see the logic of the greatest run in American history, "eliminating the middleman" somehow being wrong and now the policy is "ADDING the middleman" ... but then again, I must be crazy. I remember when the word "progress" was synonymous with "improvement." Whoops. :)
There is a good reason for the Midleman!
The big producers cannot serve you with personal attention.
If you wanted to buy screws, would you go directly to the manufacturer? He'd ask you how many boxcars of screws you wanted!
You go to the local hardware store, "I got three boxes, if you need more, I can have them in next Thursday."
So the guy in the hardware store is a local merchant who has a few peices of many. many items.
He gets scre...his screws from a jobber who got them from a wholesaler, who was able to buy a box car from the manufacturer.
Each one adds something to the product. Maybe the manufacturer ships them in bulk to a distributer who packages them in boxes of 100 count, or 50 pound kegs, who sells them to jobbers, or perhaps to national distributers such as Wal*Mart or Hardware Hank.
Why electricty or telecomunications should be any different, I do not know. But the PROBLEM with the Enrons and the WorldComs of this world, is that they do not deal in screws (well.... in any HARD product that can be COUNTED and ACCOUNTED for) but in stock trades and commodity trades, frequently trading Items and serveses that they do not actually own.
And this was brought to us by deregulation, require the big comanies to allow small companies to compete using the facilities of the big companies. [HELLOOOOoooooo...... Anybody home?] And because they deal in futures and deals or whatever, they have different accounting principles.
EGADS! It was BETTER to have one company ~Con Ed for Example~ who generated and distributed electricity (Bought some extra if they had to) maintained their equipment paid their employees, and managed their business.
Oh But they are a monopoly and they charge too much....
WELL ELTORO POOPOO! They have to pay their employees a living wage, and a very very good living wage at that for such skilled employes, they have to buy and maintain infrastructure, the have to erect and maintain generating facilities and transmission lines, and oh yes, also buy some fule of some sort to fire those generators.
AND YOU SAY THEY CHARGE TOO MUCH!
So they are RGULATED.
But instead we DEREGULATED THEM, and said that they no longer have a monopoly and anybody can compete with them. Did Prices go down? Did Service Get Better?
Enter ENRON.... Oops!
Elias
Well then ... I sit CORRECTED then. Heh. Well, all I can tell ya is that with my red dyed fuel oil, I can beat the power company with my own diesel by 7 cents a kWH ... guess who I get MY power from? :)
Watts for tots ... made fresh daily, and CHEAPER. Never a blackout here unless I need to clean the commutator. Heh.
"with my own diesel by 7 cents a kWH ... "
HMMmmmmm..... I don't know a watt the whats cost here, but I'm sure it is not that much!
Elias
New York is impressively expensive ... OFFICIALLY the rate here is about 5.7 cents a kWH HOWEVER, there's all sorts of vigorish in "delivery charges and adjustments" on top, putting it near 11 cents a kWH as a "real price" ... of course the politicos love to harp only on the 5.7 and forget the rest. Downstate, it's MUCH higher.
I can make my own for about 4.2 just so's you have the numbers, a little under twice what it costs the power company to make watts for tots. :)
So they are RGULATED.
But instead we DEREGULATED THEM, and said that they no longer have a monopoly and anybody can compete with them. Did Prices go down? Did Service Get Better?
Hey hey hey, hold it. There are various ways of regulating natural monopolies (transits, pipelines and electricity distribution are examples). There's the cost-of-service model, where the Federal regulators basically allow a x% return on investment plus all costs required to maintain and operate the infrastructure. The problem is that the company then has no incentive to be efficient, because they can bill everything to the consumer as "costs". Then there's the RPI-X model, where a fixed term contract is signed for the prices to go up by "Retail Price Index minus X percent" (i.e. RPI-X) then if the company can beat the X index in terms of cost reductions then they keep the profits (and if not they lose money). It's a slightly better system but setting X is a difficult process and companies would not make investments that generate savings beyond the contract period which generally leads to short-termism. Then there is the deregulated model which tends towards monopoly over time because all the new upstarts will go bankrupt (the reason being that there is a NATURAL monopoly in the market, as in the most efficient number of firms operating in the market is less than one -- due to immense economies of density, scale or scope).
So far, I have not seen an easy way out of this. (If I did, then I would have been appointed the chairman of the STB). Let's not criticize the regulators just because they needed to solve the "high-cost" problem through deregulation. The real issue here is that there is a need to return to regulation once the system is cut down to the bone and new capital investment is needed. Only stupid people (oh and those who are in the short-term market) will invest in an utility firm during deregulated periods.
AEM7
Enter ENRON.... Oops!
I haven't really been following up on the Enron case, but my understanding is that Enron hit the sack because of their foreign investments and not because of their operations at home. Am I correct?
Compare Enron with RRDC (Rail Road Development Corporation) of Pittsburgh PA. Henry Posner III is highly regarded, and in his position papers he is quite clear that investment in foregin franchises is a highly risky approach. He thought that there is too much competition in the domestic market. The real difference between those two outfits is that Enron had over-invested in the ventures abroad and RRDC is still hanging in there because they are only ever minority shareholders in their foregin ventures and they usually raised local capital to make up the rest.
I think my point is that Enron isn't in itself a bad outfit. They just got it wrong. The accounting corruption is a natural phenomenon once people see big red ink. The point is to avoid the big red ink in the first place by offloading most of the risk to the foregin finance market.
AEM7
>>> I think my point is that Enron isn't in itself a bad outfit <<<
Enron stands for political influence leading to the manipulation of markets and artificially creating shortages to create higher prices. Certainly not bad in itself if you want to emulate the 19th century robber barons who helped build America.
Tom
"Why electricty or telecomunications should be any different, I do not know. But the PROBLEM with the Enrons and the WorldComs of this world, is that they do not deal in screws" --- HUH, I have it on good authority that they screwed the American poor and middle classes raw
There are NUMEROUS fields where free-market rules should NEVER apply, because these commodities are relatively indispensable : i.e. electric power, pharmaceuticals, housing - once these basic necessities of life are deregulated and subject to free market forces, the jackals and predators appear, and, well you know the rest. Look what's happening with drug prices! This is RACKETEERING PURE AND SIMPLE, and where's the government? GOD DAMN 'EM, they're all bought and paid for!!!!
wayne
Pharmaceuticals are a little bit different. It takes years to bring a product to market, whole research and development departments, testing and all. And then only a handfull of products so researched acctually ever make the companines big money.
Rather than bitch bitch bitch about prices, we (the government) should subsidize the R&D, and then license the products to manufactures who can produce the and distribute the product. This also shifts much of the product liabalty for the product patent to the government leaving the manufactures with normal production and quality liability.
As long as we gotta pay private companies to do raw and speculative research we will pay through the nose on the porduct end. Putting governemnt money here, will cost us a lot less in the end than trying to subsidize drug prices to the elderly and poor at the other end.
What do you think?
Elias
Research is something which is very hard to put government money in. Unless it is a big, big project competitive on an international level, it's pretty hard to get value for money out of government research. Look at all the projects that the U.S. has funded and got relatively good results:
* Boeing 747 (was: Military cargo plane)
* GPS (was: Need to know where to bomb in Russia)
* Landing on the Moon (was: Need to be there before the Russians)
Now look at foregin government research which ahs done well:
* TGV (was: Need to beat the Germans)
* Frog A-bombs (was: Need to beat the Americans)
* Airbus (was: Need to beat the Americans)
Now look at government research which has flopped:
* Telecommunications
* Computers
* Biotechnology
Why? Because these research projects are smaller and entities less than the national/federal government is able to undertake their own research with less bureaucracy and less restrictions. They do not need the financial backing of a national government. In that kind of research, the private sector is better suited (or a government-sponsored, cost-recovery basis research organization like the Volpe Transportation Research Center).
AEM7
Why? Because these research projects are smaller and entities less than the national/federal government is able to undertake their own research with less bureaucracy and less restrictions. They do not need the financial backing of a national government. In that kind of research, the private sector is better suited (or a government-sponsored, cost-recovery basis research organization like the Volpe Transportation Research Center).
If this is so, then we cannot complain about the price of the drugs.
Elias
>>> If this is so, then we cannot complain about the price of the drugs. <<<
Nor can we complain when drug companies spend inordinate amounts to research drugs for hair loss, impotence and general "feel good" drugs rather than something which would cure major diseases in relatively small numbers of people.
Tom
Nor can we complain when drug companies spend inordinate amounts to research drugs for hair loss, impotence and general "feel good" drugs rather than something which would cure major diseases in relatively small numbers of people.
I couldn't agree more. If the disease does not affect a large number of people, then it will go away -- natural selection will take care of that. The human race only needs to start worrying if a life-threatening disease starts affecting a significant population. It's the principle of natural democracy. If the disease affects a significant population, then drugs that treat it are likely to find a market.
As to impotence, do you actually know how much of a problem it can be for some people? I don't personally suffer from it, but I know someone who has a problem. Now, if there aren't enough people like that to support a market for drugs, it's probably not worth treating. But clearly there is, which is why all the impotence drugs are out there.
AEM7
>>> If the disease does not affect a large number of people, then it will go away -- natural selection will take care of that <<<
That may be true, but the families of those with Parkinson's Disease (over 1 million cases in the United States, first described in 1817), Huntington's Disease (over 250,000 at risk in the United States, first described in 1872), and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), more commonly referred to as Lou Gehrig's disease (about 5,600 new cases per year in the United States, first described in 1869) have not found the natural selection idea all that great, nor have these diseases gone away, nor are they likely to go away on their own any time in the near future.
Tom
If the disease does not affect a large number of people, then it will go away -- natural selection will take care of that.
That assumes the disease will appear before one has children.
Nor can we complain when drug companies spend inordinate amounts to research drugs for hair loss, impotence and general "feel good" drugs rather than something which would cure major diseases in relatively small numbers of people.
Few people recognize this. Most Americans think the pharmaceutical companies are charities that should give away medicine to sick people because they need it. The Pharmas have a bad reputation because they're greedy as hell, but in many cases a $200 drug can replace a $50,000 surgery, and the patients bitch about the $200.
The pharmas are businesses that have to answer to their stockholders, who invest in the companies for an expected financial reward. Spending $1 billion in research for a drug that sells $50 million per year would cause a stockholder revolt demanding sacking the management.
Regarding diseases affecting relatively few patients, the gummint recognizes that it is not financially advantageous to a Pharma to research potential drugs to alleviate such conditions, so they are designated "orphan drugs" and certain economic considerations are made(longer patent life, expedited FDA consideration if it would be the first drug to treat the condition). The patients are grateful to get such a drug, then later bitch about the excessive price.
BTW, when the GOP controlled Congress 7 years ago, there were two sets of Senate hearings concerning the FDA taking place simultaneously; one to terminate the FDA and let the drug companies regulate themselves and the other investigating how the FDA can be lax enough to approve drugs that eventually cause side effects serious enough to warrant removing the drug from the market.
It is a good idea in theory, but in reality it may be hard to make this happen. The prices have to be brought down if it can be shown that the needy and the elderly are making Hobson's choices due to the high cost of these drugs.
This is having a ripple effect; causing health insurers to jack up premiums to all kinds of companies, large and small, mine included.
I'm looking at a hefty (in excess of 20%) premium increase in the not too distant future.
wayne
"The prices have to be brought down "...
How can tis be so. The price of a Ford is too high! Maybe we should FORCE Ford to sell cars for 1/4 price to the elderly and the poor!
You say a car is nt like a medication, and that you can do without it. Maybe this is true in New York, but it is very much a necesity in NORTH DAKOTA. Theere are elderly living by themselves on farms 10, 20 and 20 miles from the nearest small town, and as amny af 5 miles from the nearest neighbor!
You cannot bring the prices down if the research, the research facilities and researchers all have to be paid.
It is probably better to subsidize the research and for the govt to own the patents, and license the resulting product to the drug companins. Then your costs will only reflect the cost of the ingredents, the manufacture and marketing of the particular pills that you take.
Everything else, as far as I can see is a smoke and mirrors Enroh Scheme that will cost EVERYONE more money.
Elias
Pharmaceuticals are a little bit different. It takes years to bring a product to market, whole research and development departments, testing and all. And then only a handfull of products so researched acctually ever make the companines big money.
Pharmaceutical prices also have risen so dramatically because consumers frequently aren't paying out of pocket. The federal government picks up the tab for a big percentage of drug expenditures via Medicare and Medicaid, and private health insurance pays for another big share. Consumers still are paying indirectly, of course, through taxes and insurance premiums, but there isn't the immediate impact of shelling out at the pharmacy counter and hence less public opposition to rising prices.
i.e. electric power, pharmaceuticals, housing - once these basic necessities of life are deregulated and subject to free market forces, the jackals and predators appear, and, well you know the rest.
It's not about regulation or deregulation. It's about finding a way to entice firms into producing the socially optimal result. Cost-based regulation does not necessarily achieve that goal (as I explained in the Econ 102 thread). Deregulation almost never accomplish the said goal, because of abuses, however, some periods of deregulation is necessary to clear out the "dead wood" built up during regulation periods.
Well that is my damn fool opinion.
AEM7
I wouldn't call it a "damn fool" opinion, you raise a very valid point. Just HOW do we stop predatory/confiscatory pricing practices that are disguised as "market forces"? If neither regulation or deregulation works, then the carrot-and-stick approach you described may be one of the few remaining options. But what kind of carrot do you give a shark? Tax credits? Incentives? Give these guys an inch and they will rake John Q.Public over the coals every time. And the government can't (or WON'T) do a damn thing! I just read that the price of electricity for delivery at the Calif-Oregon border went from $10.50 to over $27.00 a megawatt-hour, all on speculation that there would be a heat wave in parts of California! This is the kind of crap that Enron orchestrated. Gotta be a way to stop it.
wayne
"This is the kind of crap that Enron orchestrated. Gotta be a way to stop it."
Sure it wasn't a problem when a single company produced and distributed electricity. But do remember that they have many costs and some of them are not cheap. You cannot bitch about an honest price, that covers honest costs, growth, expenses, and maintenance.
***
Tax Breaks feed the problem. There should be NO tax breaks. Lower the tax rate a little, but then, everyone uses the SHORT FORM! No Breaks of any kind. Too many times the tax law via tax breaks is used to force a company to do this or that. This is wrong.
Corporate Tax until now has been based on profits, and the company gets to decide what the profits are. Instead, TAX THEIR GROSS INCOME.
You put $xxx.oo in the bank, pay x% on it. PERIOD! And we don't give a rats ass if you did move your company off shore. You took in these dollars here, you pay this tax on it here and now before any other deduction. That tax rate might well be only 1 or 2% but is on gross income not net income, and so ought to be equal or higher then an HONEST tax, and much much higher than all of those tax breaks and incentives.
If you need an incentive, pass a law: "your emissions will be no more than...." or whatever. That is not the business of tax law.
< /rant > Elias
>>> TAX THEIR GROSS INCOME <<<
The simplest solutions are also the most unworkable. Taxing the supermarket industry with a traditional 2% profit margin and a corporation which is just an individual with a telephone making deals all day, which net 90% profit on their gross sales would be inequitable to say the least. This becomes a tax on the amount of capital invested, since huge capital investments with modest returns would pay more tax than businesses with virtually no capital investment but high profit margins. In effect you are penalizing those who invest in infrastructure and rewarding the quick buck artists.
Tom
TAX THEIR GROSS INCOME
The simplest solutions are also the most unworkable. Taxing the supermarket industry with a traditional 2% profit margin and a corporation which is just an individual with a telephone making deals all day, which net 90% profit of their gross sales would be inequitable to say the least.
In fact, a gross income tax (such as the business and occupation tax in the state of Washington) applies even to a money-losing venture. Most new businesses lose money at first. Washington considers the tax to be a disincentive to business start-ups, it's kept on mainly because an income tax is a political taboo.
>>> In fact, a gross income tax (such as the business and occupation tax in the state of Washington) applies even to a money-losing venture. <<<
And it can be fiddled to a certain extent. Here some of the local municipalities have business and professions taxes based on gross income (usually one or two mils on a dollar), others base their taxes on the number of persons employed at the location, regardless of income. We have to pay government fees for our clients, so in a location without a gross income tax, a fee including the expected charges will be quoted, and the government fees will be carried as an expense. Where there is a gross income tax, the fee quoted is for services only, and we collect and hold in trust the charges which will be paid to the government (about 10% of the total paid by the client). The net income from either method is the same, but the latter method yields 10% lower gross income. It is also possible to have a headquarters/sales office with few employees in a city without a gross income tax, but a tax on the number of employees, and the bulk of the service workers located in a city which taxes gross income, but not the number of employees.
Tom
It is also possible to have a headquarters/sales office with few employees in a city without a gross income tax, but a tax on the number of employees, and the bulk of the service workers located in a city which taxes gross income, but not the number of employees.
I think you're missing the original poster's point. The original poster suggested a Federal tax based on revenue. By definition, if you want to operate in the US, you will have to pay Federal taxes, so the kind of "fiddle" that you suggest couldn't take place, unless you can somehow arrange for commuters in NYC to pay for their Metrocards using foregin bank accounts in Bermuda. And anyway the kind of "fiddle" you point out really isn't fiddle at all; it's legitmate competition between municipalities. If a particular city has better tax codes, it is natural that business should gravitate towards that city where possible. Thus it is natural for multi-city companies to locate their head office in a place that has low revenue tax, and locate their employees in a place that has low employee tax. Competition is not tax evasion.
AEM7
>>> The original poster suggested a Federal tax based on revenue. By definition, if you want to operate in the US, you will have to pay Federal taxes, so the kind of "fiddle" that you suggest couldn't take place, <<<
Nonsense, of course there are ways around that. Make your sales in Canada, or other foreign location and have the buyer import the product to the United States. We already see American corporations fleeing to places like the Bahamas (Ingersoll Rand) to get away from net income taxes. It can be done for gross income taxes also.
Tom
No, actually the ORIGINAL poster (me) was talking about poor maintenance and how it can KILL people. Instead, we're talking about business taxes and listening to the usual "supply side" arguments. C'est la guerre. :)
Taxing the supermarket industry with a traditional 2% profit margin and a corporation which is just an individual with a telephone making deals all day, which net 90% profit on their gross sales would be inequitable to say the least.
Actually, this is how it works: if you choose to tax revenue, then you give tax breaks on costs. For example, if you were a company in the UK, then you were taxed "value added tax" whenever you sell something (it's like a sales tax) so the effect is that your product is always 17.5% more expensive than you could make it, so in a sense this is a tax on your revenue. However, everything you buy to make that product with, including equipment, materials, consumables, software, etc., are tax-exempt, so you can buy them at 17.5% less than the public can buy them, as long as it goes through the company account.
So in your example, the supermarket with the 2% profit margin would have HUGE tax breaks because it pays for everything upstream tax-exempt. The guy with the 90% profit margin doesn't buy much, thus doesn't get much tax breaks.
AEM7
>>> Actually, this is how it works: if you choose to tax revenue, then you give tax breaks on costs.
But now you are describing a VAT rather than a gross income tax which was suggested in the original post and criticized in my post.
Tom
I just read that the price of electricity for delivery at the Calif-Oregon border went from $10.50 to over $27.00 a megawatt-hour, all on speculation that there would be a heat wave in parts of California! This is the kind of crap that Enron orchestrated. Gotta be a way to stop it.
The underlying question being raised here is not the price of electricity. It is cost allocation.
Simple example:
* My fridge runs all day (500W).
* I use my heater between 6am and 10pm (1,000W).
* I use my kettle for 10 minutes each day, at 7am (2,000W).
Question: If I were to provide electricity to my house using a generator, how big a generator do I need to buy? Answer: Generator with a capacity of at least 3,500W.
Wait. But if I forget about the kettle, I only need to buy a generator that has a capacity of 1,500W.
So, to run the kettle each day for 10 mins, I need an additional 2,000W of generating capacity. So I can attribute all the costs of the additional generating capacity to the use of the kettle?
Unfortunately, this is true -- the PEAK load is often the most expensive load to cater for in terms of capacity. If NYC Subway did not have morning and afternoon rush, 10-car trains would not be necessary. They could cater all loads with just 5-car trains. That would hack 50% off equipment capital and maintenance budget RIGHT AWAY.
Thus, if there is an anticipated heat wave, when a PEAK demand in electricity is expected to be generated, it is only fair that such investment in SURPLUS generating capacity (normally unused) should command a high PRICE to recover the marginal capital associated with making the SURPLUS capacity available.
In other words, consumer advocates like yourself should think about costing before you bash pricing.
This is nearly an Econ 103 post...
AEM7
the PEAK load is often the most expensive load to cater for in terms of capacity. If NYC Subway did not have morning and afternoon rush, 10-car trains would not be necessary. They could cater all loads with just 5-car trains. That would hack 50% off equipment capital and maintenance budget RIGHT AWAY.
Indeed, the "peaking" phenomenon (ridership much higher at rush hour than other times) is a major reason why transit systems nationwide find it seemingly impossible to operate without subsidies. This actually may be more pronounced with commuter rail systems than with urban transit.
Indeed, the "peaking" phenomenon (ridership much higher at rush hour than other times) is a major reason why transit systems nationwide find it seemingly impossible to operate without subsidies.
Bingo. Somebody understood my post! Yay!
Of course, on the Washington Metro it's not as bad as it is on other systems, because they have CONGESTION PRICING! I don't know if the peak/offpeak pricing they have on NJTransit is helping matters. What they really need to do is to make a fare structure that encourages off-peak travel and encourages monthly pass use. Per ride price should run in this sort of order, from high to low:
Peak, occasional rider
Peak, monthly contract (average price based on 40 rides monthly)
Offpeak, monthly contract (average price based on 40 rides monthly)
Offpeak, occasional rider
The idea is that the occasional rider actually ADDS to the peaking problem by showing up beyond the base load, so they need to pay more than the contract riders. The offpeak occasional rider is simply using asset which has already been paid for by the peak monthly riders, so should be admitted at any price -- in fact, should be admitted at below cost levels, since the variable costs are nearly zero. (i.e. traincrew and train would still be bought and running around even if this rider doesn't ride, so both the crew and equipment costs are sunk -- the nature of scheduled service economics).
In fact, this makes it pretty much pointless to have an "offpeak" contract, because it is almost always going to be cheaper to just pay for each run. The idea is to make the peak passes something like the cost of say 30 peak rides, and the offpeak passes something like 100 offpeak rides. Of course, the peak rides would be something like 5 times the cost of offpeak rides, depending on the demand elasticity.
AEM7
What they really need to do is to make a fare structure that encourages off-peak travel and encourages monthly pass use.
Quite true, with the caution (as I've stated before) that many peak riders have no choice in the matter due to inflexible work hours. One can argue that high peak fares make good sense economically but bad sense morally.
...that many peak riders have no choice in the matter due to inflexible work hours.
I don't know how true this is in the United States. People tell me it's true, and I've never bought into the argument. The reasons:
* If employers find out that they can pay their workers less if they make the change-shift times 11:00/19:00/01:00 rather than 08:00/17:00/23:00, they will do exactly that. The reason they can pay their workers less is because if the workers don't have to endure congestion, don't have to buy peak-hour passes, they would be more likely to take a wage cut (or less likely to demand a wage increase)
* Most white-collar firms now offer flexi-time. If they don't, then they will need to pay their workers more to attract the same caliber of workers, because the commuting costs will be relatively higher
* If businesses figure out that they can pay less and have less employee absenteeism by starting their business day at 10:00 (for example, it isn't out of line for an NYC company trading across the U.S. to do so, because that's 08:00 MST and 07:00 PST anyway), then they will do exactly that. The business day does not have to start at 8:30, especially when you realize that if you release the workers later, you'll get business from workers at all the other businesses which close at 17:00. It's impossible to buy anything if everyone got off work at 17:00 and everyone got out of work at 17:00, when they begin to try to shop at the stores that are closed.
Yes, it's a cultural change, but it can be done, especially when people become educated about the peaking phenomenon.
One can argue that high peak fares make good sense economically but bad sense morally.
Probably true in practice, at least for the first 20 years before work places settle into the new hours pattern. The only issue this sort of thing doesn't solve is that of the "all day peak", like on the Green Line on MBTA.
AEM7
>>> many peak riders have no choice in the matter due to inflexible work hours <<<
Of course it is not advertized as a premium fare during peak hours, but a discount during non peak hours. Here in Los Angeles regular bus fares are $1.35 from 5:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M. and 75¢ between 9:00 P.M. and 5:00 A.M. The daytime fare is considered the standard fare, and the night fare a discount. (BTW, the rail fare remains $1.35 between 9:00 P.M. and midnight when the system closes, and tokens good anytime are sold at the rate of 10 for $9.00).
>>> One can argue that high peak fares make good sense economically but bad sense morally. <<<
Economics (long known as the dismal science) is independent from morality. That's why life saving medicines are the most expensive, and the rich people, not the good people, get the best health care.
In general though, staggered work times could do quite a bit to ease rush hour congestion and level out somewhat the peak usage of the subways.
Before the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, gridlock was predicted for all the roads into the city during the period of the games because of all the extra people going to Olympic venues. The city promoted staggered starting and ending times for workers (starting times in 15 minute increments from 7:00-10:00 A.M.) as an emergency measure during the games, and lo and behold, congestion on the roads was less during the Olympic games than it was the month before the games in spite of all the extra people. If that sort of thing could be introduced in New York, the rush hour would be stretched, but the peak loads on public transit would be reduced.
Tom
AEM7 and Old Tom:
You are both correct about the advantages offered by flexible working hours. Transit peaking and traffic congestion would be reduced. I do not believe, however, that flex-time of sufficient magnitude to eliminate these situations would be easy to achieve in all but a relatively small number of workplaces. And magnitude is important - work 9:30 to 5:30 instead of 8:30 to 4:30 and you'll still encounter crowded trains. Something like 11:00 to 7:00 (am to pm), or at least 10:30 to 6:30 would be needed, seeing as how rush "hour" is usually more like rush several hours. But this isn't to say that smaller gains wouldn't be helpful; peaking and traffic congestion won't be eliminated, but they might be lessened. I suspect progress will be made as time goes on.
The bottom line is still: some poor person is going to have to pay through the nose, whether or not they are able to afford to do so!
Somebody has to advocate for the little guy, unpleasant as that may be to big business.
wayne
Again....
The ta cannot add more trains during rush hour. If more service is needed, then the rush hour needs to be LONGER! Making it longer is something that only the employer can do.
What is needed is a Tansit Tax on employers in the city.
It is then graduated so that if all of your employees arrived to work before 0700 or after 1000 hours there would be no tax.
if all of your employees arrived in rush hour, you would pay 100% tax. (probably $1.00/day/employee)
The employer can arrange hours accordingly, which is something the employee cannot do.
Elias
The employer can arrange hours accordingly, which is something the employee cannot do.
Doesn't flexitime exist in America?
>>> Doesn't flexitime exist in America? <<<
Only with enlightened employers.
Tom
Grrr - I quite like the 37 hour week that runs from 10 am to 7:30 pm four days a week, with a short break for lunch around 2 pm.
I quite like the 37 hour week ...
I'd love one of those too. However, I consider a "short" week to be 45 hours... 50+ is more like it. Flextime with my employer simply means that I can work all the unpaid overtime I want whenever I want (and, of course, it's expected and necessary to get the job done).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd love one of those too. However, I consider a "short" week to be 45 hours... 50+ is more like it.
The EU has to be good for something... Working Time Directives!!!
It seems you need to get your employer to hire an assistant for you.
This way, instead of working for 50 hours a week, you'd work for 25 hours and your assistant would work the same, then you'd spend another 25 hours correcting your assistant's mistakes. :-)
That's the problem... as a project manager, I AM the one charged with correcting all the foul-ups that upper management makes (and making it look like they didn't make them in the first place). Oh well, it pays the bills!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grrr - I quite like the 37 hour week that runs from 10 am to 7:30 pm four days a week, with a short break for lunch around 2 pm.
heh. Lazy British. 37 hour week, which country are you in? Wait -- I forgot you're in a conutry with no economy. Well I'm allowed to say that, I'm British.
I work 8.30a-5.30p Mon-Fri with 0.5 hr lunch break, although usually 85% of that ends up being billable.
AEM7
Wait -- I forgot you're in a conutry with no economy.
I quite agree it's a lousy country as far as the economy goes. (I do have plans to make it a better country - I may well attempt to become a politician, but I will not compromise my intellectual integrity, so I would have to be an independent). Seeing as it's the fourth largest economy on Earth, it might be worth emigrating to Alpha Centauri. I wonder if I can get the Subway there (back on topic)?
Well I'm allowed to say that, I'm British.
You're allowed to say it anyway. (1) it's true (at least in both of our opinions). (2) "freedom of speech" is a nice ideal.
it might be worth emigrating to Alpha Centauri. I wonder if I can get the Subway there (back on topic)?
The subway to Alpha Centauri will be built, oh, about the same time as the Second Avenue Subway.
The ta cannot add more trains during rush hour.
Why not? They used to run more trains during rush hours.
What is needed is a Transit Tax on employers in the city.
It is then graduated so that if all of your employees arrived to work before 0700 or after 1000 hours there would be no tax.
if all of your employees arrived in rush hour, you would pay 100% tax. (probably $1.00/day/employee)
Nice in theory, but in actual fact the last thing New York needs is anything that increases the cost of doing business!
The many accidents "over there" since privatization have blown proponents of privatization INCLUDING ME who once was, out of the water.
It's surprising that it hasn't blown that many other people out of the water. Like Jeff Jacoby that writes for the Boston Globe. He wrote some other column the other day that trumpeted privatizing Amtrak. I should have known. People who have the name "Jeff" have to be stupid.
Amtrak needs privatized, that is probably true, but it doesn't need to be split up into micro-franchises. The MBTA pretty much privatized its bus operations without much problems (a lot of the routes now go out to bid), and the commuter rail is also supposedly privatized. Granted, this kind of pseudo-privatization is not as effective as real privatization, but it at least preserves the service integrity as if the thing was being run by the public sector with a cost that can be substantially lower (due to the bidding process). Amtrak needs that and not some harebrained split-up privatization model. If they can do the same kind of cost-cutting while remaining in the public sector, more power to their elbow...
AEM7
Amtrak needs privatized, that is probably true, but it doesn't need to be split up into micro-franchises. The MBTA pretty much privatized its bus operations without much problems (a lot of the routes now go out to bid), and the commuter rail is also supposedly privatized. Granted, this kind of pseudo-privatization is not as effective as real privatization, but it at least preserves the service integrity as if the thing was being run by the public sector with a cost that can be substantially lower (due to the bidding process).
That sort of quasi-privatization also has happened with the Queens bus lines that get city DOT funding. From what I can gather, their service quality is no worse than on MTA buses.
>>> it at least preserves the service integrity as if the thing was being run by the public sector with a cost that can be substantially lower (due to the bidding process) <<<
In Los Angeles you can go one step further, and say the independent operators who provide the lower bids do so by hiring lower paid non-union drivers and mechanics and many more part-time drivers without benefits. We see the LAMTA shedding routes as quickly as they can to local operators (mostly Laidlaw), none of whom pay the wages that LAMTA does.
Whether or not that is a good thing depends a good deal on your philosophical view of unionized labor.
Tom Davis
In Los Angeles you can go one step further, and say the independent operators who provide the lower bids do so by hiring lower paid non-union drivers and mechanics and many more part-time drivers without benefits.
That is a questionable practice -- the most extreme example is in Las Vegas where the unions appear to have been suckered in by the city authorities and were bidding so low that their members were being paid basically minimum wage. They were afraid of losing the contract hence the power. (Details in Jonathan Richmond's book "The Private Provision of Public Transport" -- read the book before you make comments on the author.)
Of course, the ideal situation is that if the Vegas bus drivers realize how low they were being paid, they would simply revolt against their union and organize a new management team to bid on more reasonable wages. Non-union can still bust union, but by bidding higher and getting the contract by threatening to leave the union job.
It's all a question of balance, n'est pas?
AEM7
Quelle surprise - at least Failtrack has gone now. I hope the victims sue Balfour Beatty for their pisspoor maintenance and send them bust too.
With new problems with the 142 possible. Will they try to keep some red birds as spares.
They already have. All the yards around the city are holding some just in case.
Redbirds regularly replace R142s pulled out of RTO service. That is why i am so very busy....gimme Redbird air conditioning anyday.
I went up to North Carolina Thursday came back todays and did some backpacking with one of my friends at Linville Gorge in Pisgah National Forest. On our way up there, north of Ashville, and I saw a train at a station made up of about 6-8 cars with what looked like tourists boarding. The cars looked old school (I can't tell a specific era) and were painted orange and brown. It was a very rural area. Does anyone know anything about this? I don't know jack squat about the area, so I can't tell exactly where this train was at.
As an aside, that trip was my first trip since 1996 where I've been outside of Atlanta and was not flying out of Hartsfield. I never go out to the border states or even into Georgia. This was also the first trip since '96 where I have gone to a city with no transit!
Are you sure you were north of Asheville? The Great Smoky Mountains Railway runs a few different trips in the area southwest of Asheville.
Could it be the Tweetsie Railroad, Blowing Rock, NC?
http://www.tweetsie.com/
That's too far away, and besides, Tweetsie is inside an amusement park.
Rob, are you sure you weren't west of Asheville when you saw that train? The description sounds exactly like the Great Smoky Mountains Railroad, which runs from Dillsboro to Andrews via Bryson City. I've got family out in that area (in Horse Shoe, between Hendersonville and Brevard) so I've seen the RR run several times, although I've never managed to find the time to ride it.
The only other tourist RR in that part of the state is Tweetsie, which is a narrow gauge line that runs as part of an amusement park near Boone - more in the geographic area where you described but not the setting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't know about the train you described, but that's a beautiful area down there. When I was growing up, we lived in Asheville for a couple years and would often take road trips on the nearby Blue Ridge Parkway. Linville Falls was a favorite destination of ours... I love waterfalls, and Linville Gorge is probably one of the few areas of the Appalachians that looks like it could have been transplanted from the Sierra Nevada or the Pacific Northwest. There's also a large cluster of waterfalls down near Brevard, south of Asheville... We used to go camping there as Boy Scouts.
It's been over ten years since the last time I was in that area... I'll have to get back there someday. My idea of happiness would be cruising the full length of the Blue Ridge Parkway in a convertible C4 Corvette. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
My idea of happiness would be cruising the full length of the Blue Ridge Parkway in a convertible C4 Corvette. :-)
Awww, that's cute. I was looking at the Blue Ridge Pkwy for a summer trip too. Damn it that I don't have an auto operator's licence. And then there's the fact that I don't have the $$ nor the time off. Why is it that whenever I contemplate something romantic, reality kicks me in the rear-end?
AEM7
Yes, I went to the Falls, they're great. I camped by the river about 2-3 miles down from the water falls. I swan in the river, and man, it's HARD to walk upstream!
C4? Nah, a BMW M3 convertible or a Porsche 911 :-)
C4? Nah, a BMW M3 convertible or a Porsche 911 :-)
Those are nice cars, but since I'm a fairly tall person, a Corvette or an F-body is about the only sports car I can really get comfortable in for a long road trip. Besides, Corvettes in general have that classic look to them that can never be mistaken for another car. (I like the C4 generation because of its clean lines and because it's the only type of Corvette I'll likely have any chance of being able to afford within the next few years.)
Actually, the most comfortable car I've ever driven is the 1986 Trans Am beater I'm driving now... Up in the front seats, I've got more legroom than I know what to do with. (Back seats are a different story.) Corvettes are a bit more cramped because of that huge console in the middle, but they still have decent legroom. My dream car for a long road trip would actually be a 1987-90 Trans Am GTA... Same engine as a Vette, but considerably roomier on the inside. They're rare as convertibles, but you can always pop the t-tops off when the weather is nice.
The only downside to third-generation F-bodies -- aside from their horrible gas mileage and high insurance rates -- is that they carry the unfortunate stigma of being associated with greasy mullets and Knight Rider. But if you can get past that, they're great cars, and incredibly reliable despite all their squeaks and rattles.
My current Trans Am -- the so-called "Day Rider" as nicknamed by my former co-workers -- is well past 154,000 miles and needs a ton of work before it could ever be mistaken for a nice car or pass emissions, so I'll most likely end up replacing it later on this year once I'm settled in Philly and have some cash saved up. I'm hoping I can get my hands on a Trans Am GTA in good condition, although I wouldn't rule out a C4 Vette that needed some TLC if I found one at the right price.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Now that I got to look at a map of where I went, it IS west of Ashville. I looked up the Smokey Mtn RR, and that's it. Gary and Anon are right.
In ENY Yard today are:
8185,86,87,88
8189,90,91,92
8193,94,95,96.
In other words, 8185 thru 8196. These cars are in the testing phase.
Do they complain about multiple terminals the way #5 riders complain about it?
The #3 goes to either 148 Street Manhattan, East 180 Street or E 238 Street (sometimes also E 241 Street????)
This question was raised several months ago. Now through countless hours of research (actually skimming through the LIRR T.H.E.M. manual, I have the answers. According to the book, there are three possible configurations.
Cab Car # 5001-5023 =137 Seats
Trailer car (even #4002-4134) = 143 seats
Toilet Trailer car (odd #4001-4087) = 137 seats
Not listed are the handful of bar-cars. (Subtract 8 seats from either of the trailers)
Car #'s 4055, 4061, 4063, 4065, 4067, 4069, 4071 and I believe 4051 is the 8th bar car. Correct me if I am wrong.
Why can a mono-level SEPTA mono-level Bombardier coach seat 131 people, but an LIRR Bi-level can only seat 137? Ideally they would seat 262, but yes I know that people need to be able to enter the vehicle. Still, shouldn't they get seating up somewhere up around 160? 180? What gives?
Double deckers generally seat 2 x 2 while single level cars generaly seat 2 x 3. Leastwise that is how it was done when LIRR double deckers still had Owl Eyes in the front!
Elias
They opted for more comfortable seating rather than more capacity. The C-3s have 2-2 seating.
The C-1s had 3-2 seating, so clearly they tried it and people must have not liked it much.
Wasn't the whole point of bi-levels to increase capacity? I hardly think that providing a cushy ride for Long Islanders was worth the extra expense of bi-level cars.
Do you remember what the old coaches looked like? Nostalgia-wise and railfan-wise they were great. (I miss them) But for commuters they were rolling pieces of junk! I think the new bi-levels are great, and well worth the expense. (The engines, however, are another story).
I love the cars as well, and in fact was hoping the LIRR was going to give up on MUs and just purchase some electric-only engines to run with the bilevels. But alas, that didn't swing.
Railfan Window?
I would tend to agree with you, but seeing as how the prototype did have the additional capacity there must have been something that triggered the LIRR to change their minds...
Maybe to make up for the lack of headroom?
Actually, it may have to do with the middle seat of the three seater. Unless the train is oppressively crowded, no one really goes for it. So the LIRR may have decided on an increase in "desired" seating capacity, since on everyone's list of preferred seating the middle seat comes dead last. I mean, standing in the vestibule is often preferred!
And remember, a comfortable seat is important for these particular LIRR riders. These aren't people going on a 30 minute run from Nassau County (Oyster Bay line excepted), the ride from many stations in diesel territory is actually much longer than anything on SEPTA. Plus, these people have had to deal with horrible pieces of... antiquated equipment for many years, they deserve a better seat.
Plus, the bilevels do increase capacity. There's much more standing space on two floors than one!
Around 4pm a fire in a ConEd substation that overloaded caused a momentary voltage drop city-wide. So did any signal problems occur as a result?
I should've known something happened as I was sitting in the pizza place and the TV station went out for a minute.
Lucky you to be sitting in a pizza place!Broadway line was a mess i got up to astoria 45 min late and multible trains got tripped.
Yeah I wuz doin' laundry in Great Neck, and having some "linner" (early dinner). They also had WCBS 101.1 on, but they didn't mention anything. If I didn't have 2 do laundry I might've railfanned today and got caught in the mess.
Something similar happened in Flushing a few years ago while I was waiting for the bus. It was dusk and all the lights flickered, later on the news I heard Con Ed had a fire at a substation.
Good thing it wasn't a regular weekday, things could've really been much worse. Computers aren't too fond of voltage drops either.
Trains at Queens Plaza were taken out of service at 4pm, my wife's R was discharged. The following E went on the R local Broadway. Annoucned was "signal problems".
The Q's were piled up outside of 57th, at 4:30pm my wife saw two w's and an R on the local, next was her Q so she left the area.
Is "Lou from Brooklyn" you or your wife? Are you both TOs? Who is the 6'8" person?
Lou is known as "Big Lou" up at Branford, and yes, he's 6' 8"... and no, he doesn't work for the TA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There were multiple problems.
At 3:49PM, my booth lighting, AC, and MVMs went off momentarily. Then, I am told of signal problems system wide. N,Q,R,W effected. 4,5,6 got knocked out later on from Fulton St to GCT. Normal Lex service wasn't reestablished until 10PM.
To add to this, there was a BIE at 59th and 72nd Sts on the D. The northbound D that went BIE was on the switch coming into 59th St. At least one B Train may have been turned at 59th St to go north. The T/O took a call on and crossed all four tracks? Is that possible? Police Investigation at 183rd St on the 4 forced a skip, and troubles on a 2 at Lincoln Center. All in a days work I say!
-Stef
>>>The T/O took a call on and crossed all four tracks? Is that possible?<<<
Stef,
According to my resident TW/O, no, it is not possible at 59th.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for clarifying!
Regards,
Stef
I was On the Q got Discharged at Dekalb ,and got the rare Court St. turnaround.
It was a big mess. There was a ConEd substation fire in Yonkers which played havoc on TA signals in various places in the system particularly at interlockings. Near 121 St. on the J line, a stop arm on a homeball came up underneath a train. There were problems on the Bway BMT subway all the way from DeKalb to 57/7th also leading toward Chambers St. on the J/M/Z lines. This is called an AC power failure. Signals are AC power and third rail is DC power. With all these new signals controlled by Master Towers, signal failures now reach wide areas. In effect, ConEd power has a lot to do with TA operations even though they do not provide third rail power. Manhattan bound J/M/Z trains were either held in the middle tracks, or turned at Essex, Marcy, or Bway Junction. The whole episode showed how inadequete the RTO radio system is. Everybody talking over one another and no one could comprehend instructions given to them by towers or Control Center. Here we have the Eastern Division all botched up and we get cut off by transmissions from Dekalb and the Bway subway. For all the trains out there, all we have is 3 channels on the road: IRT, BMT, IND. For a multimillion dollar organization, it's one sick joke.
Needless to say, if we don't know what is going on, then we cannot advise the riding public of what is going on. Because of the inadequete TA radio system, the front line employees are the bad guys in the eyes of the public. Then the TA has the gall to memo us that we have to keep customers informed during delays. Give us the tools and we will.
Don't ya miss the days when the subway generated it's OWN power!!
Signals had their own power??
Well built systems have dual power supplies to signals and signal towers. Admittedly it is easier on an AC system where you only needed a transformer, but it is probably not beyond the designers of the system to put either a little UPS pack or a rectifier and transformer for each signal. Yes, expensive, but it is needed in certain parts of the subway!
All the signalboxes and signals are suppliable both from the power grid and the overhead line on the West Coast Mainline in the UK. This is probably the case for most electrified suburban lines also.
AEM7
Railroad signals are usually battery powered, and AC, uesd to be DC strung across the telegraph poles recharged the Batteries.
BNSF pulled all of the telegraph poles down, and se the local utility (if any) to recharge the batteries. Utility poles anre not permited to follow the ROW, but the utility must negeotiate with land owners to string the poles in to the place where the signal is located.
BNSF also rents out ROW to fiber optic companies for telecomunications and these also seem to provide the RR with chanels for signals and communitcations.
In some places Photovoltaic cells are used to recharge the batteries. As in places there there is no local utility.
Ovcourse photovoltaic cells do heve their limitations in subway applications.
LOL : ) Elias
FAQ time: IRT and BRT/BMT, having been private operating companies,
had their own powerplants. They generated 25cy AC at high voltages
(e.g. 11kV). This was stepped down and turned into DC at substations.
Signal power on these two divisions was historically from the same
powerplant, with high-voltage AC mains (2400VAC) distributing the
signal power from substations into the field. The BMT used 2400AC
mains and sectional step-downs to 120. The IRT used 600AC local
mains and special transformers that powered the lights and track
feeds directly from the 600AC.
The IND never generated power. They bought it from ConEd. For
signal supply, the nearest source of 120AC is used. This could
be the same that powers the station lights. Therefore, IND power
was always 60cy.
Since there are only two plants in NY that can make the 25cy needed
for most IRT and BMT signals, the TA has been slowly cutting over
to local power on those divisions. Instead of recalibrating all
of the track circuits for 60cy impedances, they have been installing
solid-state converters. I honestly thought most of the system was
cut-over already, but evidently this was another example of a
major system-wide 25cy outage.
P.S. DC track circuits have NEVER been used in the NYC subway,
going back to '04.
Also, the AC signal mains generally do have 2 sources, in case a local distribution circuit goes loco.
With auto-failover, or manual bypass switches?
Dunno fer sure, but think the newer stuff might have and auto-transfer.
Also, the AC signal mains generally do have 2 sources, in case a local distribution circuit goes loco.
There are several levels of electric transmission from the generator to the outlet in one's home. The first level goes from the generator to the substation. This is high tension around 69 KV. Prior to the last citywide blackout (ca. 1977), there was single contingency in the supply to the substations. The substations were supplied by two different high tension lines. One could go out without affecting the substation. Con Edison was supposed to provide a third high tension feeder to each substation as a result of that blackout.
Next there is the transmission from the substation to a transformer which is close to one's house. This is called primary. The secondary side of the transformer - 3 phase 208/110 is called secondary. There are two architectures for this transmission: radial and network.
For radial networks there is a single primary feeding the transformer. If the primary goes, there is no power on several transformer secondaries. I believe the primary voltage for radial networks is around 5 KV.
For networks there are 3 primary lines feeding each transformer. One of the primary lines takes a completely separate route than the other two. One (single contingency) or two (double contingency) primary lines can go out and sufficient power will be provided to the transformer. I believe the primary voltage for netorks is either 12 KV or 25 KV (there used to be two separate standards).
There is only a single 3 phase line going from the transformer secondary to the customer's property. If this wire or transformer fails, then the customer will be without power.
There is only a single 3 phase line going from the transformer secondary to the customer's property. If this wire or transformer fails, then the customer will be without power.
Sure, but we're not talking about a residence. Like I said, there are generally TWO drops from TWO DIFFERENT local distro circuits, and an auto-transfer. So if there are too many Fedders window units running on one circuit and the xformer goes cablooey, the railroad still runs.
Thanks Jeff!
On the IRT the No.2,4,5,6 Lines had problems in the Bronx and Lower Manhattan on the Lex Line.
Yeah, my bro told me how he and his CE crew were 'camped out for the night' up in Yonkers till they got that substation back online...
I was driving and there were no problems with the traffic signals.
TRaffic signals seem to tolerate voltage drops better than subway signals. I dunno why.
I was in the middle of all this. Got on to a SB R at 23 St and it just sat there. At 4pm. They said "local AC power failure to the signals. We should be moving shortly." Was trying to get to Flatbush LIRR Term. Sat there for 17 minutes then said the hell with this, got on an M23 and went to 7 Av where I got a SB 2 to Atlantic Av. Good thing I didn't go east to take the 4/5/6 because I hear that was messed up also. There were no problems that I saw on the 1/2/3.
Good thing it didn't happen on a regular weekday, because the chaos would've been even worse. I wonder why it took so long to reset the signals. Considering how sensitive signal systems are to voltage drops, as well as the millions of computers in Manhattan, you'd think ConEd would have a better system of keeping these things isolated.
It shows NYC's electrical system is too reliant on power from Upstate.
Where can I buy Metroliners. I want one. Do you think it will make me happy? I think it might. Well I could restore it and maybe I can make it run really fast, if I just put a lot of money into it. Upgrade the motors and upgrade the transformers. Then it can go at 150mph also. Is that really fast. I will probably also need to change the trucks right, cuz the Metroliner trucks don't ride right at high speeds. Where can I get a Metroliner. Are there any still left for sale? And I will need to buy two Amfleet trucks that I can replace the original trucks with.
AEM7
*just kidding about this but...* You on drugs?
Well, today Chuchubob and I were the SOLE participants in the SubTalk SEPTA trip to West Trenton. SEPTA was running a Saturday RR schedual so we caught the 9:30 R3 at Market East. While battling signals up the SEPTA Main Line to Wayne Junction, we took pictures from the windows of all the junctions and the two sets of shops at Wayne Jct. We spotted a Reading Blueliner and WAYNE tower as well as the shop switchers at the Wayne MU shoppe.
We switched to the Neshamity line at JENKIN and I discovered that all the block signals had been turned and line converted to Cab Signals with out Fixed Wayside Signals. Of course this upgrade only lasted till we got the the CSX trackage at CP-NESHAMITY. The SEPTA commuter lines are very quaint and photogenic with a close packed RoW w/ maky rock cuts. Everything was viberantly green due to the recent rain. We spotted a CSX freight train comming down past the Woodburn Yard. We arrived at West Trenton on time and watched the MU reverse in the yard and then pull out back east while we went on a 90 minute layover. Despite high hopes, not a single CSX freight train passed through while we were waiting. We busied ourselves checking out the layover yard and TRENT tower. The 11:48 train back to the city was composed of Budd Silverliner II's and we bought a ticket for passage to Throndale on the R5 with a changeover at 30th St.
We had a 15 min layover at 30th St. where I bought this mouth wattering (and fat filled) cinnemon and sugar pretzel. We rode the surprisingly full 12:25 R5 out to Thorndale and saw numerous inbound R5's, the Sperry railcar at PAOLI and an Amtrak Keystone train. Upon making the restricted speed crossover over 5 tracks at THORN interlocking, we entered the new Thorndale station. While waiting for the train to make its turnaround run, we caught another Keystone train w/ a Phaze IV Genesis pulling a Heritage coach. FYI David Gunn has pulled out the Heritage coaches again and won't out them away until he gets money to fix the broken rolling stock at Beech Grove.
On the way back we ran into a surprise Three Rivers at PAOLI and both Chuchubob and I took identical bad photos that cut of the nose of the lead P42. Also, the crew didn't let us ride in the front car from THORN to PAOLI thus kinning out chance to get a good shot of the -SYLVANIA Silverliner II #218 at Frazier.
To got back into town and took the BSS to Walnut-Locust and then transferred to PATCO. I left chuchubob as he waited in the rainfan window of the PATCO car trying to get a pic of the 4:27 train out of Lindenwold. Stay tuened for a switch and signal report.
Wow, so I DIDN'T miss anything. lol
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Coolie"
Good for you Jerky Mike, I'm slacking away and my 2nd job so I can pay for a trip down to SEPTA in July. You can't just instantly say "FIELD TRIP" and have people show up the next day.
I know I should have kept quite, but your ticking me off (and I'm being polite)
so I can pay for a trip down to SEPTA in July
It's only like $20 round trip, NJTransit+SEPTA. You are in NYC right? I know that getting the time off work could be a problem, but $20 is hardly a barrier. If you really wanted to go, you could have gone. Why not just say "I didn't feel like going" as opposed to "Don't have any money" which is a poor excuse?
OK, $20 is a lot of money to some people, but if you REALLY wanted to go, you'll eek out $20. Say instead of the payday treat, you go on the SEPTA trip. Well maybe you don't have a payday treat. What about just go to one less movie?
I don't ever go on Jersey Mike's field trips in PHL because I live in BOS and I can't afford the $120 round-trip Northeast Direct ticket.
AEM7
Actually, round trip is just below $30. Plus food, plus SEPTA regional rail fares.... "not having the money" is a perfectly valid excuse.
You said there was a Reading "Blueliner" at Wayne Jct. Does anyone know what the number of this car is, what condition it's in and what it's used for?
I wonder if anyone has even attempted to compile a list of what happened to all the Reading MU cars. I always thought they looked pretty neat, but they seem to have been scattered to the winds. I know of one at Scranton, one in Danville PA, eight in Leesport, and three owned by the mysterious West Chester RR. There are a bunch of virtually destroyed cars in Wilkes-Barre, and I know there's at least one on the Stewartstown RR, but I know little about these. I don't even know the original numbers of any of the 9100's. Sorry for rambling...
Frank Hicks
There are about 10-20 at Jim Thorpe (Mach Chunk) PA. Some are in a back and forth tourist train operation, other are parked on a storage track. Some are in Reading green while a few are in SEPTA R/W/B. There might also been some Blueliners in and around Hamburg PA. All of these cars are in some way involved with the Reading and Northern Railroad. Here is a pic of #9110 at Jim Thorpe, taken from the Rt. 206 bridge over the Schukyll River.
Thanks for the info, and for the picture! If you know the numbers of any other RDG MU cars in Jim Thorpe, I'd love to know. I knew that the Reading & Northern had a bunch of ex-Lack MU cars, but I didn't know they had any Reading MU's.
Frank Hicks
I didn't see a number on the Reading Blueliner at Wayne Junction.
Thanks for the photo. Jeez, it looks ready to run! Is it possible that someone is actually maintaining this car, perhaps as an historic relic and not just a storeroom? Of course, even if it is just a storeroom, an unusually history-minded employee could have repainted the car in RDG colors instead of some drab MOW dip job.
Frank Hicks
To Frank Hicks:
If you are interested in the MU fleet of the RDG, you may want to get a copy of the book by Wes Coates "Electric Trains to Reading Terminal" which I think is currently out-of-print.
Very detailed book about the original electrification of the RDG and the original equipment, including the 38 rebuilds into Blueliners in 1964-65.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim:
Thanks for the suggestion of that book on the RDG MU cars! I'd never heard of it, but it sounds like just the kind of reference book I'd be interested in. I'll see if I can put in an "order" with the Strahorn Library at IRM and try to get my hands on a copy.
Frank Hicks
I hate when they don't let you ride in the first car! Those arrogent lazy ticket collectors don't want to have to walk through so many cars. Well get some excercise! Some people like the first car! Or tell your boss to make the trains shorter. I buy my ticket so I can ride in the first car, not the 3rd car. BTW, this happened to me just this evening on the 10:51pm LIRR train out of Inwood. Makes me so mad!
I hate when they don't let you ride in the first car! Those arrogent lazy ticket collectors don't want to have to walk through so many cars.
Incorrect. You are not permitted to ride in the first car for your own safety. I can think of at least one case on Metra where lives were saved because the accident occured off-peak and the customers were not permitted to ride in the first car.
This is not to say that the first car is unsafe; first car is as safe as an FRA vehicle, but second car is safer than the first in case of a collision. For example, in the Metrolink accident, most of the injuries occured in the first car; in the MARC Silver Springs accident, all of the dead were sitting in the first car, which caught fire on impact.
Or tell your boss to make the trains shorter.
The switching isn't done for two reasons: (1) safety, as crash barriers, as mentioned above; (2) save coupler/pipe wear, which reduces likelihood of failures.
I buy my ticket so I can ride in the first car, not the 3rd car.
Ride during the peak hour, when the first car is open.
BTW, this happened to me just this evening on the 10:51pm LIRR train out of Inwood. Makes me so mad!
ha ha.
AEM7
Doesn't it burn more money to haul around 2 car with no revenue passengers?
I left chuchubob as he waited in the rainfan window of the PATCO car trying to get a pic of the 4:27 train out of Lindenwold.
I missed photographing the NJT Atlantic City to Philly train from PATCO's railfan window because it was 7 minutes late and we arrived in Lindenwold as the NJT train was pulling out.
The bargain of the day was the trip from West Trenton to Thorndale with a train change at 30th Street (we could have changed at Market East of Suburban Station as well): Seven dollars for 68.3 miles.
I just got back from a weekend at Dewey Beach, Delaware, and expect to add something to this thread in a day or two.
Lou from Brooklyn: you would enjoy railfanning with JM; just stand at the railfan window and make him try to see past you.
The last seven pictures on my Webshots Railfan Potpourri 7 page were taken on the SEPTA trip last Saturday.
I don't know if there has been an official "ribbon cutting" ceremony yet, but the two new center platforms at Stamford are now in use. When Metro-North trains pull in, doors open on both sides, and the conductor announces which side of the train people should exit in order to get a connecting train for either local service, or the New Canaan branch. I'm sure this will be helpful, since so many Metro-North and Amtrak trains stop there. -Nick
They must have been doing that for a while then because I rode MN home from New Haven about a month ago and the doors opened on both sides. They also did that when I rode back from New Haven in October of last year.
In the midst of the power failure, a 10 Car Transfer to Concourse Yard took a detour into the West Side this evening.
R-33ML Cars going into storage are: 8866-67, 8972-73, 9042-43, 9088-89, and 9158-59. Farewell? Perhaps, as cars stored at Concourse wind up on the Reef. I had nothing better to do and jotted their numbers down as they came up from TSQ.
On the work service front, 9018-19 and 9130-9225 could be found pulling the refuse train with the R-134 workhorses.
-Stef
Despite recent events with the R-142s, cars continue to enter service. 6481-85 and 6491-95 were on the road today, not necessarily with each other.
6441-60 and 6496-6500 should be what remains of the group that sat out of service for the last year.
-Stef
About the first IRT subway opened in 1904:
Where is Elm Street, or rather, what street used to be Elm St.?
Where is Elm Street, or rather, what street used to be Elm St.?
Lafayette St
Ah, makes sense....thanks :)
Elm Street was Elk Street from Chambers to Duane, continued through what is now the Federal Plaza, and then was the name for the current Lafayette as far as Spring.
I counted 5 ALP-46's in the Harrison yard Wednesday evening on my way home from work. I thought I counted 6 on the way in, but could have been mistaken.
Does anyone know when these locomotives will make their debut? Will it be when Montclair connection service begins this fall?
It just seems such a waste to have these locomotives just sitting there with the Arrow III equipment really needing some work.
I don't think the ALP-46's will be in service until all or almost all of them are delivered. From Michael Steinberg's site:
"NJ TRANSIT is purchasing 29 new ALP46 electric locomotives. An original order of 24 electric locomotives was placed in anticipation of new service associated with Secaucus Transfer, Montclair Connection and other projects as well as to accommodate anticipated ridership growth. An additional five new locomotives have been ordered in anticipation of the take-over of Clocker Service from Amtrak which will occur no earlier than 2006."
Actually it's not a waste having them stored there for awhile because NJT does not need them now. When they open the Secaucus Transfer and the new Montclair Connection, then NJT will take them out.
I can't wait to see the new NJT equipment in passenger service! Those Comet V & ALP-46's came out beautiful, especially the paint scheme.
The Arrow IIIs don't need any work! They were just rebuilt less than 10 years ago, and for some ungodly reason they're sending them out for more modifications again (variable tap transformers).
Having the pleasure of riding the Arrow III's everyday along the NEC, I would have to disagree.
There are always door problems with the crews having to go to bypass. There is a car or two on a train without airconditioning, and then there are cars with no lights. I hold my breath everytime I get to Jersey Ave. and the 7:11 hasn't made it's way out of the yard.
Yes, they were rebuilt less than 10 years ago, but they are being worked pretty hard. If they have ALP-46's sitting around in Harrison doing nothing, then now is a good time to roll them out and get some maintenance done on the Arrow III's before they are run into the ground.
If they have ALP-46's sitting around in Harrison doing nothing, then now is a good time to roll them out and get some maintenance done on the Arrow III's before they are run into the ground.
How would NJT do that? There aren't enough push-pull coaches running for the entire NJT system. The NJT Arrows were technically "reserved" for the NEC and some of the NJCL and the Gladstone Branch. You wouldn't find too many Comets even lying around (i.e. at MMC).
As someone in this board once mentioned, it's not worth the Arrows being taken off the track for minor incidents such as door problems which do not affect the entire train neither a whole set of trains. Unless if a train is dying in service, or needs its motors repaired, the Arrows will stay on the track until their appointed inspection time.
Of all the times I have rode the Arrow III, I have found no major door problems even with the conductors. Just that some doors "slide slowly inward, then are pulled back open," as I mentioned in another thread a long time ago.
No lights on a train simply means that power cannot be supplied to that car at that time, which also means no A/C. I've only come across two consecutive connected cars at the front of the train like this last summer. Conductors encourage people to seat in the other cars of the train since the first two cars did not have electricity.
If you encounter serious problems, please contact NJT via e-mail or phone. Info. is found at the NJT website.
I've seen an ALP-46 on the Coast Line twice within the past two weeks... not sure if it's testing or what, but it was on a revenue train. No, I didn't happen to notice the number.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You seen an Alp-46 on the coast line....in revenue service? I really doubt that....but anythings possible right.
June 28th and July 5th (both Fridays), inbound at the route 35 crossing in Red Bank... from the time (about 0800) my guess would be that they were either overnight at Long Branch or were on the first train outbound from NYP that morning. May have been the same motor both times, may have been a different one, I don't know, but it definitely wasn't a meatball and it definitely had a pan.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Story here.
I see a magic solution since others in other threads keep harping on the theme ... once upon a time, there were ADAMS gum machines, gumball, Chicklets and other dispensers of consumer goods on the stanhions on station platforms. Perhaps it's time for Kimberley-Clark to install DEPENDS vending machines on subway platforms across this "under God" U.S.A. so that "customers" can relieve themselves WHILE they're in that railfan window or "God-given seat."
If it works out, then "Attends," "wee-care" and others can bring the stock market out of its slump with a whole new retail angle that Wal*Mart ain't cornered. :)
That's a good point. Don't they issue doggy bags to Norfolk Southern employees? Why can't Metro riders just buy some doggy bags off Norfolk Southern? We don't want everybody to be like Conrail. If people were, then we'd not respect the big blue anymore.
AEM7
If I need a "pith thtop" while railfanning on the Metro - three locations come to mind: Crystal City (just inside Crystal Shops North, left of Sbarro, down the hall), Farragut North, (inside the food court, north end of station), and Union Station (follow the signs in the concourse). Other than those, you're SOL.
My Dad (age 88) and I were out on June 24 on the Green line and he had to go while we were at Naylor Road; the station agent was more than happy to show Dad to the facilities.
wayne
Lucky you. We Philadelphians don't have the major convenience of subway restrooms, except in two spots:
69th Street Terminal at the end of the Market-Frankford Line (there are two along the east wall next to the exit stairways from the arrival platform, and another two (larger) facilities in the hallway leading to the center bus platform at the west terminal. For some reason (and by the looks of the restrooms, it ain't maintenance), both are closed between 8:00 PM and 5:00 AM, despite the fact that quite a few suburban bus routes run until at least 11:30 PM, the city routes almost all night.
Chinatown station on the Broad-Ridge Spur (locked, the station attendants have the key)
Regional Rail Stations have restrooms, but only if the station has the agent housed in a building, not a trailer, and the rooms are closed when the building is. Suburban Station and Market East don't have this problem, as the stations also hold a passeger service office which remains open until the last train has left.
Yes, but notice that all three locations that Wayne mentioned are outside fare control -- i.e., they're not "subway restrooms" at all. The Metro has no openly available restrooms anywhere; they're all under the control of the station manager.
Mvh Tim
On MARTA, I believe there are about five stations where the restrooms are always open. I had to go at a station with locked ones, but the station manager unlocked it for me with no hassles.
Ah Yes, Rest Rooms.
Out here in North Dakota, The interstate highways have new restrooms on them (the olde one hole boxes seemed no longer appropriate... and there was Federal Funding, so....) and these state of the art restrooms were 2-6 million dollars each.
Well it goes without saying that new restrooms on a transit system ought to be of the same quality as these. Of course the Federal Funding ougt to be the same... but it isn't.
Still it can be done. And since things 'railroad' ought to be self-supporting according to the Fed... There ought to be a private Restroom Company. Now that is not all that unusal, there are private port-a-potty companies all over the place, and they even *are* state of the art, as far as the art of the porta-potty has come. But that is not quite what I had in mind.
And so a sanitation concession is in order. The company offering the successful bid will build and operate restrooms under contrace. Funding will come from the use and users of these restrooms. Access will be by metro-card, token, or cash, the price the same as the subway fare. So, an extra fare to use a clean restroom.
The contract stipulates that the restrooms will be open 24 hours a day, and that there will be an attendant there 24 thours a day. Part of the cost of the attendant *could* be picked up by the tranisit authority, if that attendant might also have the contract for maintaining the rest of that station. In larger stations of course, the attendtant cost of the attendant will not be so shared since the ta needs to provide its own station attendants, and because the maintenance of restrooms at such facilities would be a full time endevour.
In larger stations there will be both men's and women's rooms and therefore would also need to be both male and female attendants, while in smaller stations the restrooms would consist of several single stall unisex faciliities, maintained by a single attendant.
Smaller facilities might not be open at all hours. Even larger stations might have several individual unisex stalls, and be managed by a single attendant at night or on weekends.
It is also possible that the company offering the successful bid for service might also provide other services such as maintaing pop and candy machines.
Yes, I know that the law does not permit pay toilets. But, laws can be changed, and exceptions made. $1.50 (presently) is not an excessive price to pay for the use of a clean, safe restroom.
Elias
When I was in London, they had clean and well-attended public restrooms all over the city, costing 20p per use (the equivalent of our quarter). The system works quite well, even in heavily-trafficked areas, i.e. the one on Edgware Road east of Baker Street station.
wayne
I wanted to know if anyone knew what was the time frame for replacing the current vending machine with the new touch screen models...and does anyone have a list of the stations that have them at this time? these machines are so great and such a time saver.
I have seen them at Great Neck and of course at Penn station.
Do they take credit cards or is it still just cash and debit cards?
Yes, they accept all three like MVMs.
I think they do take credit cards, and you can purchase some types of Metrocards from the machine.
They do take credit and debit cards.
The monthly/weekly tickets come printed on the back of a metrocard -- whether you purchase a card or not. (If you don't pay for the metrocard, it just has a zero value).
CG
Ronkonkoma got them about a month ago.
Great Neck?? Ya, but only in the waiting room, which isn't open at 12:30pm on a Thursday night, which means you have to use the push button machine that only takes debit cards and cash and the screen is impossible to read and the labels on the buttons are all worn off. Luckily the local rider who took me to the station new the machine and was able to do it for me. I NEVER would have figured it out.
Yeah, the new machine is in the waiting room only. The old crap is still outside. I guess the LIRR doesn't want their new machines out in weather, or, for fear of vandalism.
One of the new machines at RVC is outdoors. Also, the machine at Laurelton is outdoors, but I don't know if it's one of the new ones.
CG
The one at Bay Shore its outdoors , same with the ones in babylon
Mineola has them.
They have those new ticket vending from what ive seen in Bay Shore , Babylon , Jamica, Penn Station . I heard that they were also going to be installed in hicksville and great neck. I dont know the time frame of them replacing the old ones though.
I have a feeling the stations on the Oyster Bay line will be the last to get the new machines. :-(
I like the old machines! Last place you can get a ticket for Quogue, Mill Neck, Center Moriches, Holtsville, and Southampton Campus LIU!
I am really hoping that the BAYSIDE train station will get one once in for all. BAYSIDE is a major hub, next to Great Neck, and it never got one at all. Not sure why they never thought of installing one. Maybe Sea Cliff will get one to replace the TVM at the station too.
LIRR has a habit of neglecting it's Queens stations.
Well....that seems really dumb on their part considering that Bayside is a main station on the line and having a new vending machine would be worth their while...I mean right now Fleet Bank has their ATM right there at the station, making money off the fees it charges...so why not offer commuters a ticket machine they can use off hours...especially to buy a monthly..that would save time so much....how can I write to to convince them?..does anyone know?
yea they have some at jamaica too. i like them better because u dont have to enter ur station code and all that. not to mention they accept Debit cards. YAY
I saw them at both Flatbush Avenue (Brooklyn) and Huntington.
You can add Rockville Centre to the list with the new machines. They replaced the old one with 2 new ones about 3 weeks ago.
The new machines are MUCH better.
CG
.........at the expense of somebodys...........JOB...........!!....?
These machines didn't take jobs, the old ones did. LIRR cut back ticket offices and hours a few years ago and replaced them with the sorry slow machines.
I'd be surprised, though, if these machines don't make ticket agents even more expendable. The window agents at the stations don't accept credit or debit cards, and these machines do. On the other hand, the agents accept personal checks.
CG
I'd be surprised, though, if these machines don't make ticket agents even more expendable. The window agents at the stations don't accept credit or debit cards, and these machines do. On the other hand, the agents accept personal checks.
Now that so many checking accounts come with Mastercard or Visa debit cards, the check-acceptance policy at the ticket windows will become less and less important.
Put in a blank (signed?) check + dip your drivers license (OCR and/or barcode reading). Check is read and printed withdrawl and payto info and voided and given back for records. Then it is electronically submited via TVM LAN/MAN network or telephone modem or cellphone network. The drivers license can be ether recorded and sent to MTA headquaters or somehow electronically verfied via TVM LAN/MAN network or telephone modem or cellphone network. I'am not really sure how TVMs and MVMs are connected.
There are many at Penn Station NY at the LIRR level. I've noticed this months ago and according to appearances, it looks simpler than the old LIRR machines. (At a glance)
>>it looks simpler than the old LIRR machines.<<
It is much simpler than the old TVM's. The hang up was finding which station you want to go and entering the 3 digit code and finding which button is "peak" or "off peak". By that time you've missed your train.
Now is NJT watching and ready for a touch screen TVM that's better than the one they have now ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The new LIRR machines are very similar to the TA's MVM's in both appearance and functions.
Besides the items Bill Newkirk mentioned, my biggest gripe with the old machines was the unbelievable length of time it took to process a debit card transaction, and then the painstaking wait for your ticket and receipt to be printed.
CG
NJT ticket machines have 3-digit station codes, but for frequent travels I just memorize a few of them. NJT will have to update their TVM's anyway for the new opening of the Secaucus Transfer station, which is not included in the list of "Rail Station Codes". And if I'm not mistaken, I think NJT has a lesser amount of stations than LIRR does and it is nicely alphabetized so it shouldn't be a painstaking effort to get a ticket.
Most riders usually have a weekly or a monthly pass anyway so they wouldn't worry too much about it. I think the new TVM's are fine. What's so bad about them?
I used them at PENN STA!!!
They are VERY cool, and quite neat, too. In Hong Kong where fare is determined by distance traveled (sucks), it's so convienent to be able to press for your desired station on a map screen...at least with a screen will know where that ticket can go.
But it's only with the subway though, currently...I think the KCR West Rail may have it, but I have no idea.
>>> it's so convienent to be able to press for your desired station on a map screen... <<<
That's new technology, but older systems have been just as effective. I remember maps in the Paris Metro 40 years ago where you pressed a button on your destination station, and the map displayed the price of a ticket to get there (both 1st and 3rd class) from your present location, and lit up the proper route including necessary transfers. You then had to purchase the ticket from a nearby machine by price. The new machines you describe includes all the functions in one machine, but the Paris system worked well since regular commuters knew the price of the tickets they wanted, and a first time user had all the information needed clearly laid out.
Tom
Since they had to strip the Cortlandt Street area anyway, and the new 1/9 tunnel is, in effect, being built outdoors, wouldn't it be nice if some of the tunnel were left in the open air instead of completely undisclosed--maybe passengers could get a view of a sunken plaza or something, like at 15th Street on the Philly Subwa-Surface.
There are places in London where daylight gets through on some of the Underground, I suppose left over from steam days. The effect can be interesting and dramatic.
Or make the station part of the new mall complex (well lighted).
I saw that effect on the northern half of the Circle/District-Edgware/Metropolitan lines, a good example of this is around Aldgate, also at Paddington, Gloucester Road, Gt.Portland Street &c. You are correct, the original motive power was steam and tank engines, and these needed some openings to the air in order to vent.
wayne
During my three day visit to Punxsutawney & DuBois this week, I drove by car on PA 119 between the two towns on a half dozen occasions.
I couldn't help but notice a RR crossing on the north end of Punxsutawney that seemed little used. There were no crossing signals, but it was posted with a state highway sign in yellow and black indicating that it was a RR crossing. Just below the sign was a second sign in black and white, simply stating "EXEMPT".
I have never seen this before, does anyone know what this means?
It means that the crossing is exempt from "vehicle must stop" rules, such as fuel trucks, buses, etc.
HOWEVER, in NY state when I got my bus license back in 1974, we were told to IGNORE the "exempt" signs, and stop anyway. That's because (1) some cops don't know what exempt means, and (2) some motorists will report non-stoppers -- and make for a lot of hassle.
There is an exempt sign at the crossing on Clinton Rd by the ticket office turned fire house. (Just south of Stewart)
As far as flagging goes I remember a freight train crossing Stewart Av years ago by the the Stewart Av Yard, a conductor jumped off the train and stopped traffic on Stewart. He then stopped traffic a little further north on that small street that enters Roosevelt Field. I don't remember any "exempt" sign at those 2 crossings.
While we're on the subject, what did they use to do on MacDonald Av when the South Bklyn RR used to run an occasional diesel train on the trolley type tracks on it?
Sometimes railroads issue bulletin orders (like a G.O.) dealing with rusty rail conditions (where trains may not reliably shunt track circuits) directing crews to stop and flag the crossings.
Not much at all, at least in the early '70s. I grew up two blocks from MacDonald Ave and my school was on the opposite side from me. Quite a few times, I remember having to cross MacDonald by using the Ave N station, due to aslow moving train in the street.
>>> we were told to IGNORE the "exempt" signs, and stop anyway <<<
I was riding on a bus recently where the driver must have had the same training. He stopped at a rail crossing which had a sign saying "abandoned" on the traditional railroad cross bucks. I was amused to notice that the tracks which crossed the road had been torn up on both sides beyond the sidewalk line. Since this was a transit bus on its regular route, I assume the B/O knew of this condition before stopping.
Tom
It's used on crossings that are used so rarely, that, in effect, the trains stop for the traffic instead of vice versa--i.e., someone on the train has to get out and flag.
The crossings on the Cape May Line were all exempt a decade ago. I wonder if they still are now that they've restored track into Cape May City and run a regular tourist train.
There was a crossing downtown Cape May, and they had to flag there. I don't remember seeing an exempt sign though. The train did not stop at any other crossing on the Cape May Line.
AEM7
There is a crossing on Route 1 in Edison Twp. NJ which was exempt as of about 1991. I saw flagging there a few times.
A real b-tch to try and stop traffic breezing along at 50-60 MPH!
CG
Not really. When the crossing signals are activated, the traffic lights at Forest Haven Blvd and the next northern intersection go all-red. This stops the traffic quite well, although people get impaitient and blow the light; this is usually not a problem because the train is quite visible and usually moving by then.
After traveling this area for years and never seeing a train, I was stopped five times in three days by trains there.
-Hank
I saw flagging there a few times.
What is flagging?
Also, my dad reported seeing a train on that track even if the EXEMPT sign is there. What I also noticed was that the red covers that were used to cover the lights are gone, now revealing the original lights. Only one set of two are covered.
I guess this line is not entirely abandoned.
Which line was this served as?
Flagging is when the train stops at a crossing, kicks out a crew member with a flag and instructions to stand in the middle of the road to make sure cars know a train is crossing. This is usually done at "unprotected" crossings across major streets. Quite often the line is so seldom used or maintained that the track has a 10 MPH restriction anyway.
I rememmber a crossing in Crystal Lake Illinois on Rt 14 (A pseudo-highway with divided roadways for most, and limited access for parts) with an exempt sign. On one side was a rails to trails path heading south for a ways, an old quarry siding. To the north was a CNW siding and reversing wye for some industries along the road that paralleled it (can't remember the name now). The crossing track went maybe 20 feet on the other side, where there was an end of track bumper, and as such was marked as exempt.
One day I was waiting in the car at an adjacent K-mart, watching an SD40-2 swap cars from a freight that was stopped north of me, in downtown Crystal Lake. Apparantly the SD40-2 and a cut of cars could not fit on the switching tail without going out onto the Crossing. After some discussion, they apparantly decided who would risk his neck by stopping the 70+ mph traffic on 14. Two guys went out, each of them with a flag, and waved like crazy to get one of the four lanes to stop, while one guy stopped that lane, the other guy headed across the divide to stop the other direction. When all appeared calm, and the three traffic-having lanes had been stopped, the SD40-2 ventured out onto the highway. It had just about made it all the way across the street when a car came zooming down the left lane of the westbound traffic, making maybe 60 mph, he kept coming, the flag man waved wildly, and the SD40-2 blew it's horn incessently. Maybe 50 or so feet from the train, the car slammed on it's brakes, and smashed into the front fireman's side truck at a good speed. I jumped out and ran to the corner, but the air bags had deployed, and the train crew had extricated the driver, young teenager and two passengers, a kid about the same age and the other my age, about 13, from the car. Once the car was backed up (apparantly the firemen had to cut the bumper from around the HTC sideframes, it just wrapped around the truck), the SD40-2 moved clear of the intersection, to allow traffic to flow. I heard one of the flag man says that there seemed to be some damage to the wheel bearings, but it could go on with work before being sent to the shop. Pretty good when you consider that the car was pretty much totalled.
Probably one of the few 'Car Hits Train' accidents!
The "EXEMPT" sign is used for crossings which are not or rarely ever used. There is one grade crossing over a county road in South Edison that connects to a small, old factory (not the one on Rt.1) which I think should be marked "EXEMPT" but it's not. There are no lights, no gates, and a run-down crooked metal sign with the traditional "RAIL ROADxCROSSING".
Rarely, I see freight trains moved (i.e. I drive by and no train is on the other end, and the next day I see a set of cargo cars alone on the side away from the factory.)
If you think you might know where this is, it is in the vicinity of COSTCO Wholesale and not too far from the Ford Assembly Plant in Edison.
I think the definition of the word "exempt" will aid you in the meaning.
Thank you all for your responses to my "EXEMPT" question. I sort of suspected its meaning, but I am surprised that in all of my travels and railfanning over the years that I had never noticed it before.
Several miles north of this location on PA 119 is the site of another railroad crossing long since removed. The tracks and ties are gone. The land to the east of the highway has been excavated removing any trace of railroad roadbed. I can still make out where the roadbed must have been to the west of the highway. The highway itself has been regraded eliminating any trace of tracks crossing.
The unusual part is that the overhead highway flashers on their own poles are still in place, but with all signs removed. They suffer greatly from peeling paint and rust. The tracks must have been removed many years ago.
It sure would be startling to approach this area, and suddenly see those old flashers start blinking since there is hardly any trace of it ever being a crossing.
Maybe a ghost train!
I knew it was bound to happen to me sometime. I use an RFM (Reduced Fare Metrocard)and put an amount for weekly unlimited use. Well the first bus I took today it was fine. Problem began on the 2nd bus. My card kept getting a READ ERROR. I tried it several times, the driver even wiped it with a cloth, but still saying READ ERROR.
Same thing happened on the 3rd bus I took. Both LI Bus drivers were very nice about it and didn't make me pay fare. One of the drivers said to go to a subway station token booth and they should be able to fix it. I'm going to Main street in Flushing tomorrow, hopefully they will be able to fix it.
I wonder how it happened. Well I just hope they will be able to fix it, or I guess I'll have to go to Jay street and get a new one.
Same thing happened to me a while back with a one month unlimited. At the turnstile, it kept saying please swipe again. The card was dead and I had to send it to Jay St. They reimbursed me about 7 dollars since it was about to expire.
I'll have to go to Jay street, it looks like...
No no, they give you an envelope and a slip so you just mail it to them.
He can get the enveloep from a booth or the bus Operator but the conditiosn also statement he can go to 370- Jay Street. street level for imemdiate assistance.
I'd rather get this taken care of ASAP, so I'd rather go to 370 Jay.
I once had a similar problem with a 7 day unlimited. I went to Jay Street, but they only write down the problem and you have to leave it and wait for a refund via mail.
I don't know if it is still the same.
QTrain's original post states he has a RFM (Redcued Fare MetroCard.) For those, the guidelnes states "or go to 370 Jay STreet Street Level Lobby Between 9Am and 5PM..."
Anotehr option is the MetroCard Bus or MetroCard Van.
Considering problems with Metrocards are relatively common, I wouldn't want to put more than $20 on one.
The value Matrocards are easier to deal with. If you're having trouble getting it to be read, you can take it to a token booth and ask for a new one of the same value.
There's always a problem of trust.
"There's always a problem of trust"
I had this problem once, but the token clerk was able to read the card, and therefore knew how much money to put on the new card. I guess if the card was totally unreadable, I would have had to go to Jay St. I'm sure the clerk wouldn't have given me a new card for $20 on my say-so.
All we can do is transfer the balance to a new card if we can read the old card. If that is the case you show the bad card and ask for a return trip ). You then contact the MetroCard Number and ask for a new card or go to 370 Jay STreet, Street level for a replacement card.
If we cannot read the card at all, then you'd have to pay the full fare and show the bad card as ID and ask for a return trip.
Of course- since your card is unlimited we cannot fix these cards per Transit Policy and your only option is to show it as ID , pay full fare and ask for a rerturn trip ticket. Go to Jay STreet as soon as possible.
Sorry your card is givign problems. We find that many times the bus farebox messes up cards.
When can I go down to Jay street? I imagine they are closed tomorrow I will have to go Monday.
There was a thread about bus fareboxes "killing" MetroCards a few months ago....the prime suspect is that they (the fareboxes) are never cleaned and a foreign substance in the reader can scratch or demag the stripe and thereby kill the aforementioned card.
Gee would Peggy say Stations is blaming Surface?? now now
I asked Peggy and here is here answer:
"No. We are not blaming Surface but many bus operators do not carry head cleaning cards."
Peggy ahs alkso advised that she has spoken to bus dispatchers and told them to advise their operators to please clean their fareboxes and to check with a booth if they need cleaning cards.
Of course, if the bus is Queens Surface then their fareboxes are well maintained :-)
Well in my case the driver "tested the farebox" and it was OK, that's how he knew it was my card that was defective.
I've seen fareboxes refuse to accept any metrocards and everybody gets a free ride. This has only happened on NYCT buses, the fareboxes on LI Bus probably get less dirty since there's less riders.
Of course with all the smoke in the air today, that could cause problems.
Well the testing is no good if the testing was on the second or third bus. You said that problems began on the second bus. What if the first bus damaged the card?
It's possible, but the Metrocard was accepted on the 1st bus. On the 2nd and 3rd bus they tested the farebox, which worked fine.
I guess it could've been the 1st bus. It seemed to function OK but the engine was making a grinding noise, not that would have anything to do with it.
Every time a bus has killed my card, it was accepted on the killer bus, which makes me think the problem is with the part _after_ it reads the card, and with the part when it writes the transaction detail onto the alternating volatile area. I've had occasions where I've been with a bunch of passengers who transfer from one bus to another, and all of our cards wouldn't read on the second bus.
In many of these cases, the card would work happily in the subway, but never on a bus. I get some strange looks when I ask for the card to be exchanged by the station agent because "buses can't read it" - it always shows as fine on their reader, but they humor me anyway and exchange it.
If acustomer has a MetroCard other than an unlimiyed or Railroad Plus or Yearly (TransitChek Gold) then they have to the right to ask us to transfer it to a new card.
>>>"Of course, if the bus is Queens Surface then their fareboxes are well maintained :-)"<<<
You got that right, the revenue manager instead of seat warming is
cleaning the fare boxes, while the drivers is on strike.
;-) Sparky
PS-He also paints roofs on redbirds as a hobby.
You might want to get that fixed today before it gets worser.
My Lincoln Festival monthly wouldn't swipe at 225 St (NB platform) on the 1 last week. Some nice guy swiped me in as he exited. It has worked fine since then...
As a employee who has to make the card last at least 2 years at a time
Here's some tips
1)in the subway never go to the first or last turnstile there usually the dirtiest and most heavily used.
2)swipe evenly and at a good speed.
3)And when the above fails take your card,turn it upside down and swipe a few times this is an effective way to clean the slot.This is a great way to avoid having to find a 24 hour entrance when using those 'metrocard required' entrances.
Another way is to get a fresh card every week its free!Thats how i used to get back for the lousy service before i got hired! LOL
Of course now the service is great!LOL
No R143 cars were seen today. The common practice with the exception of last weekend (the weekend before 7/4/02) is not to run the cars on weekends.
My next post on this will be 7/7/02- even if none are spotted.I expect I will see R143 cars on Monday 7/8/02.
DISCLAIMER: As usual, there coudl be some in a yard or I could have missed a set or two.
Did you see any Slants or R40Ms? The buzz is that they've all (at least all the Slants) departed Eastern Division for the wilds of Coney Island.
wayne
I have not seen any Slants on the L lately. I do see a mix of R40M and R42 based on mixed trains of large and small ripples. From what I see, most trains on the L now are wide ripples (R42?)
From my wanderings at Times Square BMT I see many slants on the N. Q circle seems to be all R68 series (2xxx). Due to my hours I do not see the diamond Q.
Keep your eyes out for Slant "N"s in the upper reaches of the 4400 series, from 4422 and up; this finding will confirm the transfer; last trip to the "L", in May I believe, all the ENY Slants were asleep in the Canarsie-Yard, perhaps they were awaiting their transfer even then.
wayne
Saw 4425 on the N or Q Wed. Also saw a 4400 lower than that (at one time they were all on the L, as well as the upper 4300's). Yes, all of the slants are gone from the Eastern Div.
Saw a few R-40 slants on the N by Queensboro Plaza. How much longer do you think they will be used on this line?
Don't know, seem that Slants are just as home on the "N" as they are on the Diamond (Slant) "Q". Last few trips, I have seen quite a few of them on the "N".
wayne
There had been a marked increase of Slants on the N since the July changes (Geez- the W's approaching its first birthday ALREADY!), but now there seem to more than ever. The last couple weekends I rode out of Astoria, it's been about 75% Slants, with the remainder 68s. For a long time, 68As were quite common on the N weekends, but not lately. R32s have become quite scarce on the N- the few times I've seen any recently is during the rush hour.
It would be nice to see Slants on other lines, especially on weekends. If they're all at Coney now, they could conceivably fill in on the Q and W. My schedule hasn't allowed me to ride the weekday Q express lately.
There are at least occasional off-peak R-32's on the N. One trainset pulled into DeKalb yesterday across from the Q I was on, and I rode one on a weekday midday two weeks ago (and saw another one going the other way).
I don't know if it's more unusual by now to find R-32's on the N or on the R.
I rode trains of R-32s on the N both ways (heh) today.
David
I saw one at Coney Island. Perhaps relaying...
Yes - let's see slants on some of the other lines like the Q and W. Why does the N seem to be getting more of them?
The last few times I've been on the L, I've seen mismatched R-40M/R-42 4460/4665. It will be interesting to see what happens to this one if the other R-40M's disappear.
4460 is the only R40M which has the door enabler system. The other 98 do not. 4460 from personal operating experience has MK R42 parts in it even though it is not an R42. The whining of the traction motors and the whining of the dymnamic brake have a slightly different pitch in the R40 vs. the M/K R42.
According to the latest Car Maintenance Computer print-out, East NY has 10 trainsets of R-143 accepted into service. It also shows that 121 R-40 cars assigned to East NY Shop. Since the computer does not differentiate between the R-40S and R-40M, I can't tell how many of each are still around. Also keep in mind that the Fleet/Class Situation menu will be updated early this week after the MDBF numbers are finalized.
There are 100 R40Ms. So, about 20 R40 Slants.
Ah, but the computer says that 121 R-40s are assigned to East NY along with 391 R-42s. That would seem to suggest that there is at least one bastard R-40M/R-42 marriage in the East NY fleet. That would mean 99 R-40Ms (maximum) and 122 R-40 Slants. N'est Pas?"
You forgot the -ce in the middle of n'est pas. It should be "n'est-ce pas?" (translation: Isn't that right?) since it's in the form of a question.
Sorry, but I couldn't help myself. It's not too often that an hourly guy can correct a supt (LMAO).
BTW, give my best to Momma Dude for me.
The bastard pair is 4460 (R40M) married to 4665 (R42 M/K). Their natural mates were destroyed in the WillyB crash. 4664 is scrapped; the front of original slant 4260 (the middle left side was destroyed north of Ninth Ave. some time ago as that car "picked" a switch) is in the process of being transfered to 4461. When completed, 4461 will undergo a "sex" change and become 4260 (the second). When completed, they can marry that to 4259 which has been out of service and stored for a very long time. 4460 is the only R40M to have a functioning door enabler system. The 98 other R40M cars do not have it. As far as I know, no slants are door enabled and no CI R42's are functionally door enabled yet, but some have the box already installed. All the M/K R42's have it so 4460/4665 always runs with M/K cars. When one operates the cars daily, you can tell the difference between the models. I have operated 4460 numerous times and it has M/K parts installed. That car sounds and rides like an M/K car. 4460 retains the high brake valve stem, unique to the R40 contract.
Ah, poor #4259, the bride still waiting for her mate. From your report, it sounds like they have fixed her nose. I wonder who the donor was. #4918, that brute, messed up #4259's face on February 9, 1995 in a tussle on the West End el just outside 9 Avenue. For his troubles, #4918 spent a couple of years on the rack and came out of it wearing the nose and bonnet of #4726. He also got a new air conditioner, and it is MUCH COLDER than the rest of the CI-rebuilt R42s. The Frankenslant, #4260 II (ex #4461) - how close to completion is it and what might be holding it up if it is still not done?
This is an interesting saga, these cars and parts of other cars.
wayne
What is a "Door Enabler?"
T/O stops train in the station. T/O presses button (left or right) to allow doors to be opened on the corresponding side otherwise the door won't open. It's a box infront of the T/O. Door closes, T/O continues. In otherwords, a box with buttons the T/O presses in order for the doors to be opened by the C/R. This one for the Subway FAQ's abbreviations section.
Slant R40's have had enabler boxes installed, but they haven't been turned on yet.
Alas, I have spotted a CI R42 with the enabler activated. I didn't jot down the car #'s, but it was in the middle of a M&K R42 consist and it didn't have a red diamond on the exterior (it WAS in service on the J Friday).
with the 42-40M marriage, is it officially counted as 2 r40s, 2r42s or 1 r40 and 1 r42?
any MDBF yet for the R143?
No MDBF for the R-143s yet. I believe that there is a time constraint or a percentage of the fleet accepted into service before the MDBF is tracked.
>>According to the latest Car Maintenance Computer print-out, East NY has 10 trainsets of R-143 accepted into service.<<
That would mean about 80 cars of a 212 car order. We're almost half way there. This R-143 order should be all in in no time unless any problems surface.
Bill "Newkirk"
Cars 8185 thru 8188, 8189 thru 8192, and 8193 thru 8196 are on the grounds at ENY Yard.
BTW, when certain cars are scheduled to be transferred to CI Yard from ENY, they put on Diamond Q signs on the car(s) to be sent over when they're in ENY Yard. Thought you'd find that interesting.
Also, saw cars #8201-8204 and 8230 at the Kawasaki plant.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Coolie"
on the 28th i saw 2 143s and 12 142as at yonkers kawasaki
Cool! We are almost up to 100 R-143 Cars.
Mrs. Train Dude's mother (90 years old) was released from the hospital Wednesday night and we've pretty much been home-bound trying to get her back on her feet. Hence, we're pretty much tied to the house tonight. It's still over 80 degrees and absolutely beautiful here on Long Island. What the heck are you guys doing on a computer on a night like tonight?
well, Steve, I am home between two small jovs and perhaps a parts run here in moderate but sunny no Cal. and its only 4:30 ot do here. Soon out the door to a BART station.
I have to work overnight!
After a long day on the job at the Post Office in East Hampton, I'm spending time at my fiancee's house crashing in.
I'm taking a break from looking for porn.
-Hank :p
Pfft, i don't need breaks... :-O
ROFL
Hey Hank, we Mets fans have to look for other things to keep our interest now, don't we? But let's not get too perverted out there, ok?
Semi-Hiding from Mrs. Charles G as she takes care of Little Charles G as he goes through the terrible twos. I had him all day... it's her turn!!
CG
My wife and I had to watch 2 of our grandkids all day (ages 4 mos. and 18 mos.) since our daughter is home with the flu and her husband had to work. Now that they have gone home, I read all the new messages on Subtalk to relax! :-)
Bob, you come to SubTalk to relax?! Most of the time this place will get the blood pressure to the boiling point...
;-D
Most of the time this place will get the blood pressure to the boiling point...
But haven't you notice that I never get involved with those threads!
;-D
I resent the insinuation of that remark. My threads are NEVER controversal. Other people see them that way, that's all.
E_DOG
It was nice earlier today, but now there's a smoky haze over Nassau county. It's getting pretty thick here in Sea Cliff, I'd say visibility is down to 3 miles. The sun is a weak, weird red glow.
At least I got my walk through Manhasset in before the smoke came in.
Hope Mrs. Train Dude's mother gets well soon!
Whhhaaaaatttttt? You have smog in Nassau County? And you give us the rasberries for smog out here. Actually our Air Control Board has been saying for years that our air quality has improved and it has by leaps and bounds. We have some strict standards now in place and the result has been very impressive. Try to keep cool. I hear it has been very humid in the East the past week or so.
Actually the weather got better when a cool front came through on Friday, but then the smoke rolled in Saturday afternoon from the North. Well that's the good thing about the L.A. climate, it doesn't get as humid as it does here.
Actually, Sea Beach Fred, the "smog" and haze was an export of our Canadian friends. Seems that smoke from some serious forest fires in Quebec got caught up in the jet stream and was sent all over the east coast today (Sunday). The NY area, in particular, was pretty bad. It's supposed to clear up tomorrow when the high winds aloft change direction.
--Mark
Well at least it wasn't intentional on the part of our Canadian "friends". We've had some serious fires out here ourselves. The dry winter made the brush in the hills ripe for a spark and we've had a few. Summer is always fire weather out here. Don't forget to ride the Cyclone when you get back to Coney Island.
SBF ... you oughtta try the Cyclone on a clear night ... wow!!
--mark
You know I have never ridden the Cyclone at night. For some reason I never realized that until I read your post. I'm going to do that sometime. Sounds like a great idea.
Got confused if the orange thing in the sky is the mmon or the sun. Looked at it for 30 minutes no eye problums.
Got confused if the orange thing in the sky is the mmon
Is mmon anything like PROFF?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i'd say something about my situation, but i won't...
suffices to say, i could be there enjoying the sunset over massachusetts bay if i really wanted to. in fact i had plans to do just that. oh and over the independence day period too. was planning to take friday off work.
but when things don't go to plan, it's sometimes best to just look inwards and be alone. i'm normally too much of an outgoing person anyway, and i need some time like this in my life to balance things out. today, i kind of shuttled between here and school, and even managed to dig out a highway design manual that i intend to read tonight.
it's just not the same. even when i'm alone, i can do all this fun stuff in BOS and just live my wonderful life. but when i'm alone, not through my choice, not through my girlfriend's choice, but because of non-governmental third-party entities, it is a little difficult to enjoy the sunset.
tomorrow, my plans are to go down to framingham and watch trains roll by. there is something calming about watching unit coal trains.
AEM7
All the best to mama Train Dude! I am home because I'm out of the house every weekday night pounding the road! Mrs. Bill from Maspeth and myself spent too much money today. Food shopping, gardening center for weed killer, lunch at Wendy's and a purchase of the most expensive pair (orthopedic type) of shoes I ever bought for my 24/7 aching feet! They seem to have good support for my fallen arches, flat feet ans heel spurs. I have no more money and just got paid!
Just got back from the in-laws to check Sub-talk. Glad your Mom is doing better! Say prayers for my wife who had a brain tumor removed last December and is not walking very well . Her right "side" is not coming back as well as it should (the tumor was on the left).
Anyway, the best to everyone.
Chuck Greene
I'm sure we all pray for a full recovery for your wife...
Best wishes. you have my prayers.
Hey Chuck, I will remember to keep your wife's thoughts in my prayers tonight. I wish her the best of luck in overcoming her health problems. I know it can be easy for either of you.
Our best wishes, as always...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse and family
Keep the faith. Things have a way of working out for the best. We're all behind you.
E_DOG
After spending the day with Thurston and Al Aron painting the roof on 6688, I have to check out what happened. With the wide array of posts here, this is a better site than cnn.com to catch up with whatever happens in the world. This site is like visiting the family. Some good stories, squabbles, arguments, information, and a lot of fun.
After spending the day with Thurston and Al Aron painting the roof on 6688 ...
Yes, our intrepid "fiddlers on the roof"... or so I introduced you all to our visitors :-) Nice job, BTW. Too bad I didn't have any obnoxious brats on the tour when Thurston had the "stinger" out... some days I'd give anything to offer an urchin a "shocking" experience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Saw your work this A.M. (at 7:15) when we came BACK to finish the line wire work.
Well done, you got the whole roof finished, then, eh?
Not my work... Thurston, Al, and Lou were the ones doing all that good stuff, I was just showing it off to all our visitors :-) Of course, I took advantage of you guys occupying the line to regale the last batch of visitors with some interesting stories until Sparky let me pass the red signal and depart Short Beach.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Any pics?
Not from me, I was too busy taking visitors through to get my camera out of my truck. Maybe when I'm up there on the 20th... but even if I get some then it will be about three or four weeks until I can get them posted since I'll be heading out on vacation for a couple of weeks and I'm still shooting Kodachrome slides that I then have to scan. Digital is nice for certain things but I still prefer slides.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I should be heading up on Wednsday to visually inspect eveyone's work and finish the job.
This railfan carries a digital camera, but seldom does he use it. Now's the time to take pictures!
-Stef
Overall, I could make some negatory rhetoric about Saturday at BERA,
but I'll be kind and refrain. Will welcome Mr. SMEE [aka Lou
Shavell] to the board. And as we members at BERA know, his commentary
is oft biased, since he is narsicissistic, that anything that occurs
beyond him is non-existent. Besides the pair [Hart Bus & Mr. RT]
laboring on 6688 with their advisor, Anon_e_mous & I covered operations,
the signal gang went into high labor mood after the conclusion of public operations. Working on this crew were Dave Barraza, Jeff H [sub talkers]along with Harry W & Dana B. So progress was made on 6688 & the next signal at BERA. The Chairman of the Board, Ken R, continued on his project of paint removal at "Spatch". Sure there were other things going on as well in the shop.
;-Sparky
It'll be nice to have the "shack" look a little less like, well, a shack!
Dave,
Without being vindictive to any of Branford's volunteers, the project
of "dressing up 'Spatch" or other infa structure choirs are not
glamorous deeds. 'Spatch is in the view of the visitor, but no one
wants to tend to it. There is more jubilation in performing other
tasks, up to and including ditch digging. >G<
Appearance wise, we look better each year, those little extra touches to the property. Maybe we don't add a new restoration annually, but if we concentrated on that only, then the property would look like an outhouse. Plaudits to the B & G folks, the C & S gang & the M of W
contingent for their efforts.
;-) Sparky
Hey Sparky,
I'm surprised that you thought that Lou was new to the board.
He has been around for years, but he doesn't post very often.
Thanks for the info Karl. The least often that SMEE posts is more then suffice for me.
You are fortunate, you do not have to harken to his articulation while trying to conduct
a tour at Branford.
;-) Sparky
Without sounding like a bad guy, personal comments about other BERA members are not necessary here. Try to refrain from expressing personal opinions.
-Stef
Stef,
I'll refrain on the board, but it's a two way street, the opposite
should refrain from orbitor dictum about the docent with visitors
present. >OK<
;-) Sparky
Sorry we held you up, but we had to get started on a big job which lasted until 2230.
I suppose we could have made a little "crane & line car in natural habitat" exhibit out on the line.
Hey, those folks didn't mind... since I was a couple of minutes late getting started (OK, so the 1630 trip didn't run until almost 1645) they were concerned that they weren't going to get their money's worth, but I made sure they did. Wish I had been operating anything other than 2001 though - get just a wee bit of uneven track and that car dances. Hopefully 357 will be back in service when I'm up there next (20 July) - that one rides like a Cadillac.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We were watching 2001 leave Short Beach yesterday, and it appears to sway to and fro about 10' off track center !!
Those whacky French-Kanucks!
Only 10 feet off track center? Feels more like 30 feet! 4573 in full parallel is more stable than 2001 in series, and it likes to nose a bit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey guys,
2001 has been the tread that has held together the operating fleet
for many years. It's received basic maintenance & cosmetic touch-up
only. And if memory serves correctly, the trucks under 2001 are
not the originals from North of the Border. As for the swing & sway,
in comparison to other locations, our track guru "the bag", keeps it
straight.
Also remeber your operating Streetcars on T-rail, not girder rail in
pavement or whatever. What about NJT LRVs, if they exchange them
between Newark & Hudson~Bergen, they have to exchange wheels. >HMM<
And as to the delay of the operator at Short Beach, the "Dispatcher
of the Day" did the utmost to minimize it, when not tending to other
duties due to a short operating crew. He didn't leave you out at
Short Beach & forget about you. Also operation has to relinquish the
railway at the earliest for other departments to perform obligatory
instalations which will benefit all.
;-) Sparky
Short Crew??
Thought there was two of ya, sounds like a normal weekend day to me >G<.
Yeah, you was the "Missing Link" ... If we don't get a reversal in
operating crew availability, we'll be having a crew of none ...
If this is the standard we are looking to achieve, you'll be the
crew of one, because I'll play Houdini. >G<
;-) Sparky
We were clearing up at Short Beach Sunday to facilitate the minimum delay and maximum work time on riverside curve. Still tough going, with about 12.5 minutes max between getting in position and clearing up. That platform on the line car gets heavier and heavier to crank up and down too!
Dave,
I've been there done that ... I was the operator of 25, while Dana
worked on the repeater, several seasons ago under trafficked conditions.
It can be done, if a seasoned creative dispatcher is running the railway, and motivated operators take the time to interface the task into their trip, you will get more than the 12.5 minutes.
The car on thirties is fine, with some inovation to the work location.
;-) Sparky
Hey, no complaints from me, Sparky... I knew exactly what you and the rest of the folks were doing and I wasn't concerned at all about the amount of time it took you to do it. But our guests needed some reassurance.
As for 2001, she may have been an essential part of the operating fleet for many years, but she's my number six choice on the list of service cars... and last I looked there were only five :-) As I said, none of the others are significantly bothered by that section of track - the crew has done a good job. It's just 2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lets see, just got home from work, probably the most enjoyable cashier position of the two I've had. Store was dead, relaxing but boring. It is nice out, and I would have my telescope out there but the seeing is pretty bad, theres a haze that sounds similar to what Qtraindash7 described over Nassau, but I'm in South Jersey.
Best of luck to Mrs Traindude's mother.
... I'm in South Jersey.
Whereabouts, if I can be nosy?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How bout camden county, just outside philly, sorry i'm not being more specific, lets say that Cherry Hill and Lindenwold on the NJT AC line are about equidistant from me. I hope you don't mind my averting your question, but everyone can read this, and we already get enough junk mail.
Hey, that's fine... I consider North Carolina to be my permanent home, but my employer also thinks that I should actually show up for work, so I own a house in Eatontown, NJ as well. Basically I was wondering if you were near me, that's all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Um...after getting back from work, looking at other railway sites (namely the Kowloon Canton Railway Corporation's English website) and just lazing.
Why?
Best wishes to Mrs. Traindudes Ma. It only gets to 80 degrees in Phoenix in the wee hours of the morning. To address the question at hand, I`m at work looking across the runway at the Union Pacific tracks with the Ringling Bros. Circus railway cars parked on a siding, wondering if I can get close enough to take pictures when I get off.
I feel bad -- everyone has wished Mrs Traindude's mom well, and I forgot to do that in my post :-/ Here's my excuse: I kind of assumed that she would be OK, since TD didn't sound like it was going to be a problem. So here are my two cents: I'll remember Mrs Traindude's mom in my prayers today. Hope everything turns out how you want it.
AEM7
LOL. This reminds me of the SNL sketch with Capt. Kirk talking to the Trekkers.
Just got on Dude after three days, otherwise I would have answered you a hell of lot quicker. I hope your Mom is coming along fine. She is your priority now and getting back on line with your pithy comments can wait a day or two. I lost my Mother May 16, so I have some idea about your consternation over her health. No one loves you like your mother does, so cherish her. Hope to see you in New York when I arrive in October. We have a lot to bull---- about, don't we?
Well, first, I want wish your mom well and I hope she feel better, as for me, I just updated mah subway map collection. Also check back here to see if there's any new interesting topic to discuss, and also checking on National Hurricane Center Website to see whats brewing out in the Atlantic and Pacific and Western Pacific Ocean. I'm not just a railfan. I'm also a weather fan who track hurricanes and typhoon and collect data from the storm in my spare time. Also I called few of mah fwens to come out to chinatown to hang out together.
I am into weather too, especially thunderstorms. You like Chinatown also??
I live in Chinatown, I'm only 1/2 block from Grand Street Station (Chrystie Street/Hester Street). Tracking Hurricane is much more fun. U can plot their track on the map. Thats what I did every hurricane seasons.
At the time you posted your message, I was on my way to work(!).
It was a lovely night. Since there was nobody around to cause trouble, I was able to enjoy a warm sunset accompanied by music on a tabletop radio as classic fishbowl buses passed by in the distance while I went about my duties.
-Robert King
I've been outside all day yesterday and today working at my car wash. I'm SICK of the good weather right now :-)
Well it's Sunday now, but I was in most of Saturday night because: (1) I'd been running around on various errands most of the day, and (2) my wife was working the 3 to 11:30 shift (as she is tonight too). Hence, once the kids were done with the computer, I got online in order to babble about paranoid bedwetting cowards and suit-covered anuses, and to play Poppit (a hopelessly addictive if utterly retarded game on aol.com).
Best wishes to your mother.
Long Island is NEVER beautiful but be that as it may we are on the computer enjoying our dull but simple lives.
E_DOG
All kidding aside, I wish Train Dude's mother the best of health.
E_DOG
Surfing eBay category 20801 for vinyl 45s!
wayne
Just got back from the beach, got the kids into bed, tucked the wife in, and I'm wide awake because I did the driving. So here I is!
Hope your mom is doing well. Hope you are doing well.
--Mark
First off best wishes from Mr. & Mrs. Sparky to "Train Dudes" Mom.
Just back from a long weekend in Ulster County and my Saturday at
Branford. So just catching up on the newest, oldest or whatever.
;-) Sparky
I generally don't surf the Net at home because by the time everybody's asleep, usually 10:30, I'm too tired or impatient to wait for AOL to kick in. Or if I do get on, before I know it, it's 1:30 or 2:00, and then I'm a basket case all through Sunday. So I respond belatedly from the office.
We spent the afternoon in the pool in North Woodmere Park, which is usually nice and empty on Saturdays, situated as it is in the largely Orthodox Jewish Five Towns area. The boy finally learned to swim, so he wants to ply his new trade. Great view of planes touching down at JFK. If the wind blows right, you can hear the LIRR horns at the numerous crossings along the Far Rockaway branch about a mile away. Woodmere Park is on the edge of a swamp, so skeeters and horseflies were plentiful. I'm still scratching.
After dinner, Rob and I hung out watching people fish and crab at the Bayside marina, which has a beautiful view of Little Neck Bay, Great Neck and City Island. Also visible is Port Washington trains crossing the trestle at the end of the bay between the Cross Island overpass and Douglaston station. We then went to Crocheron Park and shot some baskets- at least till our ammo ran out.
A beautiful, comfortable Saturday, all too rare in July. Hope your mom's doing all right.
So what are the best songs to railfan by? Do you have a favorite train song? And to those who do bring music to railfan by, do you use tape or CD?
My favorite songs for railfanning are
Amber-Flying Above the Clouds: a dance song, particularly great when riding the 7 express and flying above the rooftops
Travis-Sing:A rock song great for riding on a railroad with wooden ties, the banjo in the background is the perfect addition
Dave Koz-The Way I Feel about you: A vocal jazz tune, great sax reminds me of riding an express train underground whizzing by stations
My mode of media is the beloved cassette tape of course. While most of my songs are on CD, I copy them to cassette tape and listen to them sometimes while at "The Window" for a railfan soundtrack.
Anybody else this crazy?
hehe yep.....whenever I railfan on the LIRR or MNRR, I turn to track 2 of my custom made Indiana Jones & The Last Crusade soundtrack (track 2 is the ending of the End Theme, self-named by me as "The Raider's March" since it is part of the original ROTLA theme and it IS a marching type of song), othertimes, when in the NYCT system, I'm using my other 24 CDs in my CD case, and is just what I feel like listening to at the moment, and just a side note: 16 of those 24 CDs are the full Billy Joel collection.
Call me a freak if you want. *lol*
For me, I like the plain old sounds of the railroad itself. I've never really thought about music during railfanning, but I like classical music. Some baroque and Mozart tunes are catchy! Also, the music used on "PHOTOJAM" for the NEC at www.ble373.org brings back the old-time of me riding the NEC. The one for the Raritan Valley line sounds a little polky and informal!
When I ride (not operate, let's get that straight right now) the trains, I like to listen to tunes from the Pet Shop Boys, The Smiths, Joe Jackson, U2 or when I'm feeling (feeling, not smelling) really funky, I put on the hardest working man in show bizniz, JAAAAAAAAAMES BROWN.
Of course when you pass thru a smoke condition, you should always keep handy a copy of Firestarter from Prodigy.
Pet Shop Boys! The Smiths! Joe Jackson!
Are you me? *g*
When I railfan the NYC subway, I like to listen to the soundtrack from "Midnight Cowboy." Those sounds really take me back to the way I imagine New York was in the late 1960s. Mmmm.
Mvh Tim
Hey, does anyone want to try my CD of Gregorian Chant?????
: ) Heheheheee...... Elias
Bob Marley, From Wailers stuff, to Rastaman vibrations to live! it makes railfanning an ire experience
""THE WARRIORS OPENING THEME SONG""............remember dat '..??
me i like road to nowhere, by talking heads. id say the best way to here this song is on the a train. with a r-38 heading to the rockaways in thefront. its so cool
Funny you mention it, when I had Mechanik (this was on my old PC that broke) one of the files, I think it was the NYC subway one, had that song in the intro. Unfortunately Mechanik won't run on the current Windows (ME) but BVE works great! I still miss Mechanik though.
It is a great rail song, that's for sure!
>>> So what are the best songs to railfan by? Do you have a favorite train song? <<<
I like "Casey's Last Ride" by Kris Kristofferson. It starts me people watching while on the subway.
Tom
"YMCA" is definately a subway song. So is "Hella Good" (No Doubt).
For subways, it's basically anything 70's Funk/Groove/Disco and some Motown/Soul. Some stuff by Tavares (It Only Takes a Minute/Heaven Must Be Missing an Angel), Diana Ross (Ain't No Mountain High Enough/Touch Me In the Morning), Love on a Two-Way Street (Stacy Lattisaw) (though most of that stuff is more for elevated lines as opposed to underground sections)
The Motown/Soul/Oldies stuff I assiciate more with NJ Transit and longer-distance trains, however.
Virtually any older stuff by Dionne Warwick, Diana Ross, and then my personal hit single, Rainy Night in Georgia (Brook Benton).
Then there's the bus music ...
Virtually anything by Rammstein. "Brick in the Wall" by Pink Floyd is great for a night ride on a city bus, "Careless Whisper" by George Michael is the perfect long-distance bus song, and I've always associated "I Want You" by Gato Barbieri with riding an NJ Transit bus down Bloomfield Av toward Newark.
I also love Smooth Jazz too, but amazingly never made any real transit connections with it.
Pink Floyd....Shine on You Crazy diamond parts 1 and 2...good stuff
Depends how I feel. If Im on an express line then I pick something with fast beats like The Chemical Brothers or one of the FEW Madonna songs I listen to (Ray Of Light). I like the 70's Disco Type Music by 'Dimitri From Paris' I carry lots of MiniDiscs...So I have plenty of Music to listen to. Late at night coming home from the clubs and bars I need to listen to trance music so I can keep awake.....lol
Yeah trance is cool, I wish the radio played more of it. KTU 103.5 is usually too mainstream but this weekend they sound good.
Dance is great for express line railfanning, especially on the Lex express, Fulton express, and Queens Blvd express, for those underground express runs.
Also works on Metro-North. try some trance or Dance or fast pop on the 90 mph zone on NHRR or on the quuens blvd, right out of roosevelt towards manhatten because it reaches 40-45 mph on mind blowing curves.
I like listening to the Motown sound of the early '60's while I'm riding the redbirds on the "7". Just my two cents.
Also a great 90s tune called "Children" by Robert Miles, great for that underground speed rush.
lol....I know that tune. Wow!! Its been a while since I heard that
I haven't tried railfanning with a walkman, but I'd think Duke Ellington's "A Train" or the Kingston Trio doing the "MTA Protest Song" would be appropriate. But I have to say the song that subways make me think of most is "Back Stabbing Liar" from John Flansburgh's Mono Puff. The first line is "Hear the scream that the turning subway makes/Hear the screams of the people in your way."
Of course there's always John Coltrane's "Blue Train," and "Locomotive," the opening number on Thelonious Monk's Straight No Chaser. If you're into Jethro Tull, I suppose "Locomotive Breath" might work, but I'm not into Tull.
Mark
My dad and I went to the center platform at 34th St. Penn to take the #3 to 42nd St. to transfer to the 7 to Vernon-Jackson to see the fireworks.
We got there around 9:00p and waited. One #1 train went downtown, and another came uptown. A #2 train came uptown, then downtown. A #3 downtown arrives, but it is not our train.
The announcer for the station said "We are momentarily holding the #3 train in the station," but the train left anyway and did not stop.
Another #1 train goes uptown and a #2 follows. A #1 train comes downtown, and immediately in about 30 seconds another #1 train downtown follows.
It was around 9:15p-9:20p by now and I suggested to go to the uptown local platform instead. By now, I thought a #3 uptown would come which looked like it was coming. But as the train approached the station on the express track, it switches over to the local and found out that it was a #1. The passengers on the express platform looked discouraged.
The announcer stated something about the uptown #3 and told the passengers to be patient.
We took the train and made the connection.
1) What happened to the #3 uptown on the Fourth? Is it just that the scheduling is sporadic at this hour?
2) How many #1 and #2 trains are scheduled to come during this hour as I have seen many in the minutes gone by waiting for the #3? It seems that the #1 always comes in both directions before a #3 pulls along.
You should just take the No.1/2 Local trains it was only one stop. The No.3 Line is the only Express and runs every 8 to 12 Minutes. The No.1 Line runs every 4 to 8 Minutes and the No.2 Line every 6 to 12 Minutes pending on time of day. I still see people get off my train at 96 Street just to get back on at 14 Street because the No.3 doesn't pass me until around 23 St. Sometimes when the No.3 runs late it comes in to 14 Street as I'm leaving 14 Street so now the people who think they made the time just lost time or didn't gain any.
Perhaps the TA had extra service assigned to the #1 & 2 lines due to the fireworks? Extra service is not needed on the #3 since that line is mostly redundant with the others.
thats why i always think why in blazes are they gonna switch over to the 3 if no time is saved.and also i see people waiting for it and never acknowledge the 1 or 2 when they could get to where they're going long before the 3 does.im telling ya people gotta stop thinking that they save time by taking an express cause in reality the most you save is 5mins and its not like its a big deal that you get there 5mins later although they make it that way like always.
The weekend schedule on the 3 calls for trains every 12 minutes. So if one got delayed by 5 minutes, you'd have a 17 minute gap between trains. Perhaps that's what happened to you.
CG
A lot of (2) trains seem to go express at all times!! Did you see any of those? It happens to me all the time. The funny thing is that they announce they local stops as you go by.
I thought all #2 trains ran local post-9/11 which they do. Have you seen #2 expresses during this time period?
The No.2 runs local most of the time. It may run Express from 96 St to Times Sq if the train is over 5 Minutes late. The set up is two No.1 trains for every 1 No.2 Train. Sometimes if a No.2 runs late you have 3 No.1 trains ahead of the No.2 which they try to avoid
I've been planning a trip to Phoenix Az in August and since I'd rather not fly I'm trying to decide between driving and Amtrak. I'm leaning towards driving as from what I see on the Amtrak website its not so convenient. It's 3 days (2 nights) on 2 separate trains (one night on each train) changing in Chicago. The nearest station is Flagstaff which is about 150 miles from Phoenix. The train is scheduled to arrive at Flagstaff at 9:21 PM barring delays. The website says the ticket office is closed at 8:30 so I doubt we could rent a car there at that hour. The other thing is that the cost of roomettes are ridiculously high. The difference is almost $3,000. And they fit 2 which look like closets and we have a 5 yr old child with us. So it looks like we'll have to spend the 2 nights on coach seats. The only return train leaves Flagstaff at 5:15 in the AM which doesn't seem too great.
Questions to people who know Amtrak:
How are the seats? Are they comfortable? Can the average person sleep two days in a row sitting on one? (And then drive 2 1/2 from Flagstaff to Phoenix) I've never slept too well on chairs. (Although I have dozed off on the LIRR)
How are the bathrooms? Are there enough and can you sh_t, shower, and shave?
Are the trains usually late?
I see both trains are reserved seats. What if the 1rst train arrives too late to make the second train?
I assume because of terrorism there are no lockers in Chicago. Is there anywhere to safely store the luggage for the 4 hrs between trains to possibly sightsee Chicago?
The website gives AAA discounts. Does all three of us get it (family) if I'm the only member?Dumb question: Can you stand on the rear platform like the old LIRR trains when there was no rear engine. That was better than any railfan window!!!
And finally, how is the food? And are we free to walk through the train at any time?
As a railfan I'd much rather take the train and I'm sure the scenery is alot better than interstates. I'm also considering Amtrak one way and driving the other with a one way unlimited milage rental.
How are the seats? Are they comfortable?
Amfleet II (in use on Lake Shore Ltd) is very comfortable. So are the seats in the Superliner (in use on the Super Chief).
Can the average person sleep two days in a row sitting on one?
If you're tired, hell, yeah. If you're not tired, go sit in the Cafe car and talk to everyone. They all have stories to tell. You usually meet students, truckers who have had wrecks, crew who are deadheading, and people who don't like to fly. Usually, if you're tired enough, and if you operate these seats correctly (they have legrests, footrests and lean back some 20 degrees if you know how to work it), then they work like a Lazyboy.
And then drive 2 1/2 from Flagstaff to Phoenix
There is a charter coach link operated by Amtrak.
How are the bathrooms? Are there enough and can you sh_t, shower, and shave?
The ones on the Superliners are spacious and very clean. Try to use the disabled one if you can. You can shit, I am not sure you can shower very well (even in a Viewliner or a Superliner -- it's more like get in, get wet, get out), and you can definitely shave. The ones on the Amfleet II's leave something to be desired, especially if you get one of the unrefurbished ones.
Are the trains usually late?
Yes.
I see both trains are reserved seats. What if the 1st train arrives too late to make the second train?
They put you up in a hotel in Chicago and then put you on the train the next day. In extreme circumstances, they will hold the train for you. Usually if the first train is running THAT late, there is a good reason, and the second train would also depart late due to the same reason.
I assume because of terrorism there are no lockers in Chicago.
There was the last time I was there, but that was before 9-11. They are $6 for 1/2 hour and $3 per 1/2 hour thereafter. It's a rip off.
Is there anywhere to safely store the luggage for the 4 hrs between trains to possibly sightsee Chicago?
You won't make it anywhere far in 4 hours. If you are taking the train THROUGH Chicago, you can check your baggage right through to the final destination.
The website gives AAA discounts. Does all three of us get it (family) if I'm the only member?
Ask AAA.
Can you stand on the rear platform like the old LIRR trains when there was no rear engine. That was better than any railfan window!!!
On the Lake Shore Ltd, you have to do this skilfully. IF there are no roadrailers on the back of the LSL, you can make your way through the NYC portion (#49) of the train and advance towards the Cafe car. Get past the Cafe Car, get past the Dining Car, and pretend you are a customer in the Viewliner at the very end of the consist. Keep going through the Viewliners (avoiding the attendents) you can stand in the rear vestabule. There may be boxcars behind there, which would block the view. But if not, you will have a good view of the Conrail NYC main.
On the Super Chief, you should be able to stand at the very last car of the Superliner (usually a coach car) and the conductor would not hassle you (it is safe to do so in a Superliner, but not in a Viewliner). However there is usually freight attached to it. Sometimes, the boxcar is low enough that the Superliner actually towers over it, so you can see everythign you want over the top of the boxcar. Other times it is roadrailers and those may be too high for you to see over.
And finally, how is the food?
The Cafe Car food was discussed in a previous thread. The dining car fare is like what you'd get a Bickfords, Cracker Barrel, or Ryan's. But it's not that expensive either. I highly recommend it.
And are we free to walk through the train at any time?
Generally, yes. A few people will hassle you, you are free to ignore them.
I recommend that you drive from NYC to CHI using the rental car, and then board the Super Chief from there, and take the Amtrak motorcoach to Arizona. On the return leg, you can do the same thing, or just drive the whole way. I hope you become a regular Amtrak customer.
AEM7
We're going to Phoenix in August too, leaving on the 11th and returning on the 18th. Arizona may be hot, okay very hot, in summer, but the prices absolutely can't be beat. We're staying at the ultra-posh Arizona Biltmore for about what a standard Hiton or Sheraton would cost in most cities. A week in Disney World at a decent but not top-notch hotel would've cost significantly more.
Dunno anything about Amtrack, though. We're taking America West from JFK (cheaper than Southwest, who'd have believed it?) HP's supposedly a pretty good airline ... as long as they give the pilots a Breathalyzer test!!
"Arizona may be hot, okay very hot, in summer..."
It's August, so it's just a tradeoff between 95 degrees and 90% humidity in NYC and 110 degrees with low humidity in Phx. It's just a different kind of being hot.
Enjoy.
CG
I resemble that remark. Thanks for for business, we need all we can get. Airline employees and airplane fans can also be railfans. Have a pleasant stay in our hot little corner of the globe. and remember " I`ts mostly a dry heat" But you are arriving during Monsoon season and could see a little thunderstorm activity. The Biltmore is top of the line and the prices durng "off season" are some what reasonable. Regards Paul B. Stevens a.k.a. trains61, Brooklyn`s native son
We're definitely looking forward to the trip. It'll be my first significant experience with "dry heat," and now I'll be able to see whether it really makes a difference. But hey, most everything in Phoenix is air-conditioned, so it shouldn't matter much any way.
<< HP's supposedly a pretty good airline ... as long as they give the pilots a Breathalyzer test!! >>
Worst seat pitch on the industry. Unless you're "vertically challenged" you'll spend the flight with your knees up around your chin. Flight atendants are surly, too. It didn't get the nickname "America Worst" for nothing!
Flight atendants are surly, too. It didn't get the nickname "America Worst" for nothing!
Don't start on America West flight attendents. I flew to CMH on Chatauqua the other week, and I was so bowled over by the attendent that I asked her to autograph my boarding pass. She wanted to know why and I just froze and turned bright pink. Finally managed a pathetic "I dunno, you're famously stunning?"
AEM7
Forget Amtrak. Seriously, if you've got kids, you can make driving cross country a LOT of fun if you work it right. I still remember my last cross country trip back in the 80's.
Amtrak's gonna big one big 'Are we there yet'
Driving at least will allow you to stop at anything interesting, and stretch out when needed.
The way we did it was keeping my brother and I involved with everything (from planning the tourist traps we'd hit to getting pics of the state's signs). my brother made these neat cardboard, white spraypainted covers for the windows (reduced A/C load on the wagon something major), and we wrote various destinations down on them. Still have them in the basement.
I've heard Amtrak horror stories, and few good ones. Hit http://www.freecongress.org/press/offpress/020628LF.htm if you really don't think things can get bad on Amtrak...
Seriously, if you've got kids, you can make driving cross country a LOT of fun if you work it right. I still remember my last cross country trip back in the 80's.
Amtrak's gonna big one big 'Are we there yet'
As if driving's not one big "Are we there yet?" Most ankle biters will be saying that before the car is out of the driveway!
Why do children bite ankles?
AEM7
Why do children bite ankles
They probably don't, in most cases ... but if they did, they'd be right at ankle level. Hence the expression.
Amtrak's gonna big one big 'Are we there yet'
And they won't be saying that every 5 minutes in the back seat of this guys car? At least on Amtrak the parents can get out of their seats and go hide in the cafe' car.
The way we did it was keeping my brother and I involved with everything (from planning the tourist traps we'd hit to getting pics of the state's signs). my brother made these neat cardboard, white spraypainted covers for the windows (reduced A/C load on the wagon something major), and we wrote various destinations down on them. Still have them in the basement.
So why can't this guy's kids take pictures of all the the various railroads or play "Lease Power Bingo". They can learn the heritage of the lines they travel on and the wonders of PRR engineering. They can listen to the defect detectors on a scanner or just sit around and read in the super-Air conditioned Splendor of the Amtrak cars. Heck, when they get on a Superliner I'll get the kids won't be able to be dragged away from the lounge car where they will have met other kids and then proceeded to have all sorts of fun (to the detriment of other passengers).
You could only get a sleeper for just part of the trip to help save on the costs...
And if you're concerned about space, deluxe rooms fit 3 people and family-sized rooms fit 2 adults and 2 children (and are the entire width of the car, so you get a window on both sides).
For a really dirty trick, you could actually ask for the sleeper accommodation for only the overnight portion of the trip. It will cost less, any you still get all your meals free.
1. How are the seats? Are they comfortable? Can the average person sleep two days in a row sitting on one?
My wife and I do just fine. Knowing you and your family, I'd say Arthur will do fine, you'll be too hyper to sleep, and your wife will kill you.
2. How are the bathrooms? Are there enough and can you sh_t, shower, and shave?
Not shower, that's for sure. Otherwise you'll be fine.
3. Are the trains usually late?
You mean you even have to ask that question? Let's just say I've only once been on a long distance train that was on time. How late? Depends. The Three Rivers into Chicago is usually pretty close. The Lake Shore Limited is usually about two hours late.
4. I see both trains are reserved seats. What if the first train arrives too late to make the second train?
If you have sleeper accomodations on BOTH segments of your journey, Amtrak will either put you up in a hotel overnight and find space on the next train out for you (although it might be coach space if the sleepers are sold out, in which case they'll give you a refund for the accomodation charge) or, depending on circumstances, they may hold the train (if you'll arrive within 30 minutes). Don't expect any baggage that has been checked all the way through to arrive with you, though, if your train doesn't arrive at least one hour before the other train departs.
5. I assume because of terrorism there are no lockers in Chicago. Is there anywhere to safely store the luggage for the 4 hrs between trains to possibly sightsee Chicago?
If you want to sightsee in Chicago your best bet is to plan the trip that way, with a one-day stopover. Amtrak will accomodate that gladly, since it relieves them of any responsibility in the event that your train is late. There's lots to see and do there; your son would enjoy the Museum of Science and Industry and the trip down into a recreated coal mine, plus the U-boat tour; or, if you can beg everyone's indulgence, rent a car and go out to IRM. But that would probably be pushing it from a family perspective.
6. The website gives AAA discounts. Does all three of us get it (family) if I'm the only member?
As I understand the AAA/Amtrak marketing agreement, yes. I'm not a AAA member though so I can't be 100% certain.
7. Dumb question: Can you stand on the rear platform like the old LIRR trains when there was no rear engine. That was better than any railfan window!!!
What rear platform?
8. And finally, how is the food? And are we free to walk through the train at any time?
The food used to be excellent. Amtrak has recently dropped its regional menus (as an "economy measure"), however, and the first reports I have had aren't positive. I've only been on Amtrak once since that was done and it was a short hop on a café car train (St. Louis to Washington, Missouri this past Monday) so I haven't experienced the change first-hand. Editorial comment: dropping the regional menus is a big blunder on Amtrak's part. I know quite a few people who justify the added time and (often) expense of Amtrak simply because the dining car meals, especially on the Western routes, are truly fine dining. I believe that decision has the potential to cost Amtrak up to 15% of its long-haul passengers, maybe even more. If you aren't travelling in a sleeper you won't be permitted to enter the sleeping cars unless it is necessary to do so to access the diner or café car / lounge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Depends. The Three Rivers into Chicago is usually pretty close. The Lake Shore Limited is usually about two hours late.
I beg to differ -- LSL is usually late due to issues at Albany, whereas the Three Rivers is usually late due to CSX dispatching. Depends on which one you find more frustrating -- sitting at NYP when no sign of train, or getting stopped somewhere in the middle of Indiana just so that pigs and corn (and in some cases coal) can fly by you.
The Pennsylvanian (#46) was usually ontime according to the old schedule, but since they have changed the schedules round, I don't know. #46 is more reliable because it is an NS train throughout whereas 3 Rivers is CSX from Akron to Chicago. CSX do not dispatch their mainline well. The ex-Conrail portion of CSX (LSL route) is dispatched reasonably well.
AEM7
The 3 Rivers is the worst train on the Amtrak system in terms of lateness. It is frequently up to 4 hours late. The other Amtrak long distance trains have a 75% confidance of being 0 to 2 hours late.
Eastbound on the Lake Shore is also an adventure, especially if CSX feels like moving empties when they see the headlight coming at SYR. :)
...and Westbound comes out of the Chicago Yard -- need I say more?
Still, I'd rather be late than have to sit in a gray running mutt or driving. I don't believe in airyplanes ... if humans were meant to fly, we'd have a rocket up our butts. :)
Well, I ride the LSL all the time. I don't really have an opportunity to ride the 3 Rivers anymore, my FOS access having been cut off (people won't drive me to FOS anymore... boohoo). I miss it though. Three Rivers has such a friendly crew of PGH people.
AEM7
The ONE thing that can be said about the route of the pointless arrow even in its worst times is that the poor bastards who WORK for the railroad are almost universally the most WONDERFUL people on the planet. For whatever may happen to the train, being in the company of the Amtrak PEOPLE is always an absolute delight ...
...the poor bastards who WORK for the railroad are almost universally the most WONDERFUL people on the planet. For whatever may happen to the train, being in the company of the Amtrak PEOPLE is always an absolute delight ...
Selkirk, don't over do it. LOL. You know, Amtrak is a funny outfit. There's the old-school railroaders and real union people who know what's going on. Then there's the new-school people who don't understand the railroad culture. Then there's the small % of a$$holes (they could be either new- or old- school) who deserve to have been fired long ago. I've just had to complain about some attendent on the #49. (I thought long and hard about this one, but he ticked me off one time too many). Guess what they came back with? A $75 voucher I specifically told them I did not want, and a two-page long letter that was so full of apologies and shite that you could puke reading it. I guess I'm impressed at least they are TRYING to make me feel better. I could just tell this letter was written by a new-school marketing guy. At no point in the letter did he mention what he's going to do to RESOLVE the situation. I was tempted to write him and say "Thanks for your apologies, but they do not benefit any Amtrak customer so you can have them right back. Now go out to the Yard and pick up some trash, that's a better use of your time than writing me a two-page letter full of apologies."
*sigh*
I need to go run this railroad. But there's only one of me...
AEM7
well said.
For years friends who know I love trains have cornered me at parties with ATK horror stories and I have found myself trying to sort out the freight RR sabotage from ATK's own incompetence/mismanagement. My perspective extends back to truly wonderful trains on the B&O when I was a kid traveling alone to Chicago from DC through the PC merger era in NY--the dirty trains, no AC, etc.
In my view the 'bad apple/needs reeducation/what was he thinking' factor at ATK is higher than the expected few in nearly any large organization. A short trip to Sacramento several years back illustrates well the dysfunctional process.
SP during the 'Moyers' administration, created a bottleneck between Davis and Sacto by removing the second main track. This maneuver has caused untold delays for both ATK trains and SP(now UP) freights.
This particular Sunday SP had a derailment in the single track segment plugging the railroad. As there was a final NB of the day now stuck at Davis the solution seemed obvios--bus bridge. And indeed after two hours of garbled PA promising the derailment would be cleared and the train would be leaving 'real soon now' the bus btidge happened. BUT,first the buses loaded as if they were going to run all the way back to Oakland or San Jose. To top t all off, as we approached Oakland, the train PA announced we would terminate in Oakland and buses would take passengers futher south--Fremont, San Jose.
The grumbling frm a mother with brood accross the aisle about the first and last time she would try the train says it all.
In my view the 'bad apple/needs reeducation/what was he thinking' factor at ATK is higher than the expected few in nearly any large organization
I don't know that is entirely true, depending on your perspective I guess. There are definitely more mudey people on AMTK than there is on the airlines, but you have to remember that AMTK staff is far more versatile -- a conductor not only has to operate the train, he also has to do customer service duties, shift baggage, and answer queries about the dining car offerings. Flight attendents do not get on the radio to couple two aircrafts, do not collect tickets, and do not shift baggage. If you had to interact with the rampers, the push-back crew and the ground management people, you will come across a lot more mudey people amongst an airline.
I happen to think most Amtrakers are pretty friendly, so in that sense I agree with Selkirk. But I just feel that it is important to point out that there are bad apples, and that the majority of people are very friendly, and that it is the few that cause disproportionate amount of problems. They need some kind of a performance measure where individual employee could be rated in a statistically significant way with regard to their probability of mudeyness, and action taken based on that statistic.
It will be difficult, because most customers do not like to make complaints. Perhaps a feedback survey is needed.
Another issue which needs to be addressed is the hand-over from one conductor to the next. Very frequently the conductors are aware of mudey personnel on their train; in fact the conductors are usually not the mudey ones, it's usually the lowly paid attendents that cause the problems (although on the Capitol Ltd there are a few conductors that need their heads bashed together). Frequently, these conductors could do nothing about their share of mudey attendents, because they have no means and no authority to rectify the situation. The job description of the conductor ought to be enhanced to give them much more control over the on-train staff, perhaps including a performance rating. After all, the conductors also hate working a train with shitty attendents, because they need coffee too, and they don't want to deal with customer complaints.
If conductors and attendents were in the same union, there would be less issues. These conflicts would be taken care of within the "brotherhood".
I don't know if that infamous "mudey" conductor is still working #46. Apparently his reputation is so bad that newbies were warned about working with him while they were in engine school. I'm not surprised they assigned him to Amtrak freight train #46.
AEM7
actually at one time ATK had 'on board Crew Chiefs' who were there to address the attendant/waiter/steward etc issues, leaving the conductor out of that loop. They of course were abolished as an economy move..
I too have had pleasant trips on Am,trak, including using the CZ to Chgo and then one or another further east. and then back again. In fact, in terms of the current route structure the main routes I have not traveled are the Texas Eagle and Sunset (although I rode an MP Texas Eagle in '62. And I expect to do some easterly trip this fall if there are trains.
I've only run into one moderately surly person on Amtrak in all my years, and one of the other people on the train told me WHY they were having such a crappy day. I felt sorry for the poor basket once I knew. What can I say? Must be that my main experiences with Amtrak are the Hudson river line and the Lake Shore ... over the years, I've gotten to know most of the people, a lot of them live right here where I do and frankly, you couldn't ask for a better bunch.
ALL of these guys really want it to work, and despite loads of abuse that they get daily, they still manage to make the trip pleasant for all in their care. But I'm quite serious about the universality of the general attitude, at least on the Amtrak *I* have ridden ... sure there's a grouser here and there. Now compare to any transit authority anywhere. :)
if humans were meant to fly, we'd have a rocket up our butts. :)
If humans were meant to travel at more than 5 MPH, then we would have had legs like a Cheetah.
That's why God gave us skates. :)
"I assume because of terrorism there are no lockers in Chicago. Is there anywhere to safely store the luggage for the 4 hrs between trains to possibly sightsee Chicago?"
1) There ARE lockers at CUS. Not the cheapest lockers on Earth, but there you go. They WERE closed off for a few weeks after 9/11, but have been "back in business" for months now.
2) If you have a sleeper either into OR out of Chicago, you can put your luggage in the Metropolitan Lounge (sleeper passengers only), where it should be safe.
3) I second the advice to spend a day in Chicago and to see the Museum of Science and Industry if you have the time. A ride on the L or a Metra route if you have the time would be good too.
"How are the bathrooms? Are there enough and can you sh_t, shower, and shave? ... Not shower, that's for sure. Otherwise you'll be fine."
Agree that there are enough washrooms, and usually enough time to shave in one without someone pounding on the door. Plus, if you have a sleeper, you CAN shower. Coach has no shower, though.
I took Amtrak from Philly to Topeaka KN with a Chicago stopover and it was a blast. I highly recomend using Amtrak LD services and the price is very comparable to walk-up Airfare.
How are the seats? Are they comfortable? Can the average person sleep two days in a row sitting on one? (And then drive 2 1/2 from Flagstaff to Phoenix) I've never slept too well on chairs. (Although I have dozed off on the LIRR)
The seats on the Amfleet I's and Superliners are very comfortable. They have both extending foot and leg rests and the crew passes out copious amounts of pillows and blankets. My only problem sleeping on them has been that I am usually so jazzed about railfanning that I can't get to sleep. Then, on return trips I am so tired from traveling that I can't stop from OVERsleeping and usually miss a lot of good railfan stuff.
How are the bathrooms? Are there enough and can you sh_t, shower, and shave?
Superliner bathrooms are definitly better than the ones on the Amfleets as they are bigger an on a seperate level. However, I woudln't classify any of them as unsueable or unpleasant. Sometimes on the Amfleets, they run out of water toward the end of the run. Showers are for "accomidated" passengers only.
Are the trains usually late?
Three Rivers is up to 4 hours late due to CSX baffoonery. Other trains have a %75 chance of being 2 hours late or less. The Pennsylvanian is almost always spot on time. The closer you are to the train's origin, the smaller the amount of lateness.
I see both trains are reserved seats. What if the 1rst train arrives too late to make the second train?
I assume because of terrorism there are no lockers in Chicago. Is there anywhere to safely store the luggage for the 4 hrs between trains to possibly sightsee Chicago?
I would assume that the lockers are still there. They are a cash cow for Amtrak and are not in a location that presents too inviting a target.
The website gives AAA discounts. Does all three of us get it (family) if I'm the only member?
I think it's only you. I ran into this problem once.
Dumb question: Can you stand on the rear platform like the old LIRR trains when there was no rear engine. That was better than any railfan window!!!
The rear vestabule will usually have intermodal trailers behind it. However, there is usually a big gap b/t coach and the first trailer providing a nice view up and to the sides. On Horizon coaches there is no vestabule end door and the side doors can be opened manually which provide for some cool railfan oppurtunities. Again, be careful of the watchful eyes of the crew. Conductors will generally eject you from any vestabule. Superliners do not have vestabules and the window on the last car usually sees over the trailing intermodal cars. Superliners also have big openable side windoes on the doors so you can stick your head out. Make sure you post a friend in the staircase to block nosy train crew and be watchful of lineside equipment or trains on adjacent tracks else you might loose your noggen.
And finally, how is the food? And are we free to walk through the train at any time?
The cafe' meal "food" sucks ass. The dining car food is close to heaven. BYO as much as you can. Also, if you ride the 3 Rivers, it is so late that they will give away the food in the Cafe midway through Ohio. Be quick, it goes fast.
On Horizon coaches there is no vestabule end door and the side doors can be opened manually which provide for some cool railfan oppurtunities.
Mike, you're not supposed to tell them that. They do not know about 3-point-contact and other safety related issues. You could get sued. Good job you don't (yet) know about Amfleet doors and ex-ATSF heritage baggage cars.
AEM7
Amfleet side doors can also be manually opened with the emergency release above the door. Conductors often use them at low platform stations when they only have to open the one door and don't want to waste time with keys and buttons.
(Sorry AEM7, but your post reminded me!).
Yeah, but all those doors are electrically controled/connected and an indication would probably light up somewhere.
To Jeffrey Rosen and anyone contemplating a long-distance trip on Amtrak: Check www.trolleycar.org for an excellent letter/diatribe by Linda Ferri, posted 06/28/2002. After reading that, I'll stick to airline travel, thank you, except for short trips. Amtrak travel between Los Angeles and San Diego is, for the most part, quite pleasant.
"To Jeffrey Rosen and anyone contemplating a long-distance trip on Amtrak: Check www.trolleycar.org for an excellent letter/diatribe by Linda Ferri, posted 06/28/2002. After reading that, I'll stick to airline travel, thank you, except for short trips."
I've made five trips by Amtrak long-distance, all the full length of the route, four in sleeper and one in coach. I was happy with the service and the food on all the trips, and I'm a person who likes his creature comforts and good food, never "roughing it". I never met a rude Amtrak employee on any trip. Beds, washrooms, showers, etc. were all clean and functional. We were no later than a half-hour on any of the trips, and a few minutes early on two of them.
IMHO, Amtrak horror stories are valid, but are outnumbered by the good or average trips. The "never again!" stories get posted on the net and in the media way more often than people telling of good trips because:
1) anger is a MUCH stronger motivator to action (writing a letter or e-mail) than contentment. Happy people don't take to the barricades, literally or virtually.
2) in the case of the media, bad trips make for compelling news while good trips don't.
Thank you. On July 7th another poster Phillip Nasadowski recommended I read an article at http://www.freecongress.org/press/offpress/020628LF.htm It turned out to be the exact same article!!!!
One month after setting a new high of $117.25, a copy of Staten Island Rapid Transit just closed on eBay for $36.00. But I don't think the winner will find the book boaring!
Am I correct that the only eastbound trains on the LIRR Montauk Branch from LIC to Jamaica are the 3:24pm and 4:54pm departures from LIC?
(I'm planning on going for a ride on the Montauk Branch some afternoon this week -- probably Monday, Wednesday, or Thursday. If anybody wants to join, email me.)
The 3:24 runs via the Main Line, it leaves Hunterspoint at 3:40.
The 4:54 does run via lower Montauk.
Happy riding!
Sorry to kill your expectations of an off-peak fare :·)!
I rode the branch last Thursday from Penn Station. I couldn't believe how busy the station was at 7:40 A.M. It looked like rush hour. I was amazed at the number of people getting on the Montauk train. There were at least eight bi-levels. I was flabbergasted at the number of passengers getting off at Montauk. There must have at least 150. I didn't know Montauk was a vacation spot like the Hamptons.
The train used the Main Line in both directions. On Friday, I rode the train to Bablyon and back on the Montauk branch. Now I can say I've ridden every line in the system, except for Long Island City. I won't lose sleep over not having that mileage.
Michael
Washington, DC
Now I can say I've ridden every line in the system, except for Long Island City.
There are a number of trains that leave LIC and use the lower Montaul branch at rush hours, so it wouldn't be too difficult to ride that line. Local service eneded about 5 years ago, but a small fraction still run through.
Actually there are only 2 passenger trains that use the Montauk from LIC to Jamaica, one AM westbound (Lv Jamaica 8:11am, Arr. LIC 8:34), and one PM eastbound (Lv LIC 4:54, Arr. Jamaica 5:16), both Oyster Bay trains. All others that use the Montauk are freights (NYAR RS-30/31, RS-50/51, RS-80/81) and MOW equipment moves, as well as special welded rail trains for LIRR track projects.
Actually there are only 2 passenger trains that use the Montauk from LIC to Jamaica, one AM westbound (Lv Jamaica 8:11am, Arr. LIC 8:34), and one PM eastbound (Lv LIC 4:54, Arr. Jamaica 5:16),
Actually, those sound like the same trains that always used the Lower Montauk branch. Although when they did local service there were two in each direction. IIRC, the Jamaica 8:11 train was always the express from Jamaica to LIC from the Oyster Bay Branch, and another came from Patchogue to Jamaica at 8:15, and that is the one that ran local to LIC. I had taken that train a few times from Patchogue to Fresh Pond. In the evening the LIC 4:54 (or about that time) skipped Penny Bridge and Haberman, but stopped at Fresh Pond, Glendale and Richmond Hill. Then there was a fully local train about 15-30 minutes later that also went through. Both went to Oyster Bay in the evening.
After the local stops were closed, they still ran the former locals express over the line. Unfortunately, when the DM service started on the Montauk and Oyster Bay branches was when they got rid of the other runs via the Lower Montauk.
The Patchogue train no longer goes to LIC via the Montauk. It goes there via the Main/Hunterspoint/LIC. The last time this train ran via the Montauk was when the Main Line work was running a few years ago.
Yeah, I know. There is only one train in each direction. The one in the morning is the one that was always the express train (8:11) from Oyster Bay, before the Patchogue train, that used to run, that went local.
I hate to be the one to break it to you but the Long Island City Branch is what this thread is all about!!!
lol....I didn't want to burst the bubble.
The name of the thread is "LIRR Montauk Branch" and that's exactly what I wrote about. I just wrote about the OTHER end.
Michael
Washington, DC
The line from Jamaica to Long Island City is usually known as the "Lower Montauk line." I don't know whether that's its formal name or just what's commonly used. References to the "Montauk Line/Branch" are usually taken to mean the much longer line running out to Montauk.
In other words, you had it right.
The name is used for both lines. (Do a Google search and see for yourself.) I think it's pretty clear from my original post that I'm going from LIC to Jamaica -- I said so explicitly. Now, I don't mind information about the other Montauk Branch, but it's not what I'm looking for.
Have you decided which day you're going, yet - or have you already done it?
Piggo and I did it this afternoon. Sorry.
But seeing as nobody bothered to collect my fare, I'm tempted to go again, especially if the expert comes along. It was an interesting ride but I'm afraid we didn't really know what to look for.
Lots of times they failed to collect the fare on the train before Jamaica even when it ran local. I had used the Fresh Pond Station a few times to go out to eastern LI. I would always have to change at Jamaica, as I wasn't using the Oyster Bay Branch. Most of the time I would just get off at Jamaica to transfer trains without ever having seen the conductor. Of course they would collect after Jamaica, but if you were just traveling to Jamaica, you would possibly get a free ride now and then. Maybe it was their way of proving that the line had even less local passengers than it really did!
Here's the history of it:
1854 - Flushing RR formed and builds the portion from LIC (Hunter's Point) to Haberman (continuing northeast to Flushing).
1868 - South Side RR formed and builds the portion from Jamaica to west of Fresh Pond (continuing southwest to Bushwick).
1870 - A subsidiary of the SSRR, the Hunter's Point and South Side RR formed and builds the connection from Fresh Pond to Haberman by 1872.
1874 - South Side goes into Bankruptcy and purchased by Flushing, North Shore and Central system. Renamed the Southern RR Co.
1876 - Owners of the FNS&C buy out the majority of LIRR stock so that all the RR's are now under common ownership (but still separate corporate identities).
1877 - Southern RR mortgage foreclosed and reorganized under the name Brooklyn and Montauk RR Co.
And that's how it got to be called the Montauk Branch.
hows the trolly line coming along?
Wrong Bob.
oh.so sorry.
I do have a couple of N scale PCC's.
And Hagstrom maps reflect it as such.
Hey everybody. My girlfriend is moving to paterson New Jersy.I dont know what part yet. i need to knwo how to get there by train or bus. any info would help out so much. thank you.
You can take the NJT Main Line to Paterson from Hoboken. Round trip fare is $6.
To get to Hoboken, take PATH's HOBOKEN train from 6th ave.
Speaking of which, it is beyond me why that line is still called the Main Line. It was the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad's Main Line (I'm almost positive), but wouldn't you think that NJ Transit's "main line" is the Northeast Corridor (which also used to be the Pennsylvania Railroad's "Main Line"!)
A much more appropriate name for the Main Line would be Passaic County Line.
Northeast Corridor is fine, but if any NJ Transit line should be called the "Main Line" it is the NEC!
but wouldn't you think that NJ Transit's "main line" is the Northeast Corridor (which also used to be the Pennsylvania Railroad's "Main Line"!)
PRR's Main Line was Philly to Paoli.
Not Pittsburgh or even Harrisburg?
My dad would raise holy hell if they were to rename the line: He's lived near it in various places for almost his entire life!
The trouble is the NJT "Main Line" is really the old DL&W Boonton Branch from Hoboken to South Paterson! The original Erie Main Line ran up the middle of Main Ave in Passaic, but there were so many complaints about the trains tying up traffic at the many grade crossings, that that route was abandoned when the Erie and DL&W merged in the early 60's. (I hate to admit it, but I remember riding an Erie train from Hoboken to Narrowsburg NY in 1953 along the original route!). When the railroads merged, they made use of what had been an Erie freight-only line that crossed the DL&W Boonton at grade in South Paterson. This line connects with the original Erie Main Line just south of Paterson Station.
To further complicate things, what NJT now calls the Boonton line south of Mountain View is really the old Erie Greenwood Lake branch, which will soon connect with the former DL&W Montclair branch at Bay Street, Montclair, to make it possible for electric trains on that line to go directly into Penn Station, NY. The original Boonton line between Mountain View and South Paterson was abandoned and much of it became the right of way for I-80.
Well now that we cleared that up ... ;-)
But I have seen pictures of the line running down Main Ave. Know what's there now? Municupal parking. Shocking, I know.
That would've been perfect for light rail as part of a line between Newark and Paterson, or something similar!
Next thing you know you'll be telling me the Main Line originally split from the Bergen Co. after Rutherford :·)!
As long as we're talking about Paterson, can you tell me when the station was trimmed to its current size? I know it was much bigger, by looking at it it appears to have had at least two more tracks and another platform, and I have a schedule indicating that trains originating/terminating there use the "Lower Level".
And, when was passenger service on the Newark Branch discontinued?
Or the 171 bus from the George Washington Bus Terminal.
NJ Transit offers frequent service between PABT and Paterson on the 161 and 190 routes. From GWB Bus Station, you can take the 171. Check out schedules at www.njtransit.com
thank you all for your help.
You know you have it good when:
1) You get an empty #5 train running as a 7th Avenue Express to the Bronx
2) When your train gets the clear ahead of an R-142 #2 at 96th St
3) You're at the RAILFAN WINDOW! Hooray!
All in a day's work, I guess. I caught a #5 on the way home from TSQ shortly after midnight. The GO on 7th Avenue is now in effect.
-Stef
I rode the GO today also. Got a 1 at 34 St at 12am heading NB. But for some reason we ran express up to 96 St.
What?!? I think I was behind you (on the 5). You ran past a 2 on the local track and crossed back over to the local track leaving 96th St. How do I know? I saw a 1 taking the switch, and those dreaded WDs were lit.
-Stef
Well, 96th is also the point of no return for a 1 that wants to end up at 242. It would need to cross over or become a 3. :)
Someday I want to be on a 1 that passes the point of no return and becomes a 3. It would be an experience. Maybe I would finally get to Lenox Terminal.
Heh. You can always get on a 3 and go there for real. I remember when 145th was the end of the line and marveled at Lenox terminal when it was new. It's quite a unique stop if you've never been there.
He can also get a view of the House that Ruth Built, as the 3 rounds the curve under the Harlem River Drive. Once, the almighty Lenox Shop stood there.
-Stef
Yep, forgot that little bit ... what can I say? Growing up in the Bronx, I always looked forward to Shea. Heh. No Steingrabber out there. But yeah, that's an interesting little run ... and a STRANGE terminal. And I *do* remember when the shops were there. Yipe.
Hey Kev/Stef,
You guys wound this Brooklyn Streetcar Bum up. I've never been to
148th~Lenox Terminal. Most likely did do the 145th Street~Lenox in
me younger days. Have to add it my to do list.
Also wondering, if one of our BERA operators, whose is a MABSTOA
Dispatcher, still working 148th & Lenox? Twofold reason to visit.
;-)Sparky
John, it's a VERY interesting little sidetrip from 96/Broadway and doesn't take very long to do the trip at all ... and years ago, they'd use 145th to turn the 2 train (terminal for 3) when there were problems upstream. Definitely worth the trip ... dunno about your MaBSTOA guy though. :)
Kevin,
Like I said, I's a Streetcar Bum and must venture over there.
Must put on the October itinerary, if not sooner. The MABSTOA Guy,
hasn't been active lately at Branford, after changing residence from
New York to Orange County. You know, he was introed to a "grass
trimming device" etc...>G<
;-) Sparky
Ah yes, the magic wheel'o'nylon ... ball of twine in a nanosecond. Ayup. Fortunately we've been able to convince our neighbors up here in farmland that it's a MEADOW ... yeah, that's the ticket - we'll be baling hay in a few more weeks. Yeah. :)
Once they move upstate, they forget what a token is in no time ... and half of them BEGIN token ... whoops.
You're right!!!! We passed a 2 on the local track. Today I will be out to ride some 5's on the West Side.
I think I have one better ....
Having it good is railfanning in Rockaway Beach, shooting video of the North Channel Bridge, when it opens at the request of marine traffic. (I have never seen that bridge open until now). Then when the bridge closes, all the A's and S's that were queued up waiting to cross start parading across the bridge.
--Mark
Good one....
-Stef
Filming from a CLEAR railfan window of a redbird
running down the 7 Ave Local bypassing through
CORTLANDT Street and RECTOR Street and SOUTH FERRY.
(this act would have been IMPOSSIBLE on an r62a)
However, I accomplished this just PRIOR to 9.11.01
(just think how many people would bark to have
footage of these temporarily-closed stations!!!)
One never knows what might happen. You could get a Redbird going down that way.... We'll see!
-Stef
Sure... but now with Cortlandt St. "completely
removed" (cite: Joe Brennan) it aint the same..
Glad I got it then..
1SF9
Is it true that the R32 cars will remain in service after the next order of subway cars for the B division, the R160 come in & that the R38,R40M,R40S & R42 cars will all be retired.
Nothing is written in stone yet.
Everyone says that but no one KNOWS that because it is like 10 years away!!! Who knows, maybe, G-d forbid, the R-32 frames might start cracking in half tomorrow while they are in service! Then they would be the FIRST to be taken out of service.
When the TA makes the base purchase or 660 cars, then the R-32s are likely to remain. However, if and when the options for 1,040 cars are acted upon, the R-32s will eventually be retired. If the funding is there, this will take place sometime in the next 10 years. If the funding is not available, then the R-32s may be around for a while.
TD
The 660 car base purchase, is that more or less equal to the number of R-38/40m/40s/44 and 42 in service? And are those the car classes to be retired with the 660 car base purchase?
And should the funding be available, what will the 1,040 option order replace, the R46's and some R-68's?
Thanks for the info
The simple answer to your question is that the cars in the worst shape will be 'reefed'. Right now it would seem that the R-R-38s will be the first to go.
Look at the B division in its entirety.
There are 1,572 60' cars currently in service. If the 1,700 R-160s are purchased, then all of the present 60' cars can retired plus give the B division the desired additional fleet. Now the interesting question is, do you replace all of the R-32s or do you replace the R-44s which perform poorly relative to the R-32s and which are suffering from corrosion OR do you replace the oldest cars first? Keep in mind that 272 R-44s are the equivalent of 340 60' cars.
Is either phase of the R32s performing worse than the other half of the fleet?
Worst fleet/phase MDBF goes first?
Please do not put words into my mouth. I said the cars in the worst shape - not the cars with the worst MDBF (although there may be some coincidence). The R-38s do not have the worst MDBF but structurally are in the worst shape. They should be the first B-Division cars to Sleep with the fishes.
Dude,I said the very same thing 3 years ago on this board,and got blasted for it...the R38'S have always fared worst,because they are not the 32!!:> They ran rougher,jerked you around,were extremly loudder than any other train on the rails[even the R10]and they leaked like no tommorow!!!They were fast,[can't take that from them]and they did provide the IND system with new cars since the r16[ha]was sent back to the BMT..AND AIR CONDITIONING...yeah yeah it was a test train,but still...anyway,as it stands now,Ive seen the efforts made to make them leak proff,and they are paying off...[tar,duck tape,and maybe some bondo.. whatever]Still when the new cars start to treckle in,im sure the will be the first to go depending on the conditions under inspection[yah im sure..]
Agreed. Indeed, the MTA should look forward to dunking them, to cleanse itself of these mistakes: Going back to purchasing less than all stainless steel cars (R38 & R44) after previously figuring out that all stainless steel (as in the R32's) made more sense? Unforgivable.
Good riddance to the rustbirds of the B Division.
Hey, Busfan, doesn't the question mark key on your keyboard work?
- Lyle Goldman
From the imformation I have, the R-32s "Brightliners" are expected to remain in service even after the R-38,40,40M & 42s are retired.
#3 West End Jeff
Could somebody please give me the exact date & records when the R30's retired & which were the car #'s on the last run of the R30's?
Not sure of the exact date, would say mid 1993. The last batch of the 30's were the ones overdone at CI, 8250-8411.
Popular gossip has it that these MU's were withdrawn a bit too early from service.
Popular gossip has it that these MU's were withdrawn a bit too early from service
When retired, these cars were in good shape. They were retired strictly because they lacked air-conditioning.
.....and retrofitting them with A/C would have made them too heavy to use on the els.
And I say, so what? AC only comes into play during the Memorial Day -Labor Day time period. In cooler weather, the R30 would not feel any different that other AC equipped cars.
So run them on lines without els! Problem solved!
Hey I agree, I hated to see them go, but the E was the only "all-underground" line at the time.
The R still ran on the Astoria El.
The C still ran from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park (at least part time).
The G which is sort of underground does see the sun at Smith-9th and for it's turn-around at the next station.
So that just leaves the E. Also the problem comes in with unexpected reroutes. It would have been hard to have to reroute the E if there was an emergency reroute.
And where would that be?E/R-?nope,Queens riders wouldn't have that.Those are the only routes that dont see sun.C line? Thats where they were assigned to. I grew up riding these cars over on the Eastern division lines[QJ/KK/M/RJ/JJ]along with the R1/9 and R16's. TO me,they will be sorely missed.To this day,the car shortages around the system,is a direct result from from the scrapping.The R68/68a contract[425/200 cars = 625]could not replace the R10[400]R16[200]R27/30/30A[550].1500 cars were replaced with 625,no more were coming anytime soon,until the R143.As we stand now,the 143's won't be enough,with the R40/40M/42 and 44 coming to the end of their service life.Hopefully, the R160/160a will take care of these problems and they will bring some sort of expantion,and incressed service levels.
I operated the last train of R30's in the Eastern Division, an M interval out of Bay Pkwy. They ran on the C for some time after that. Somewhere in my pile of books I have the consist and date from the article I wrote for the NY Division ERA.
I believe the last R30 run was on September 30, 1993.
The webpage below should give you some more details
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r2730.html
And I have a question of my own about the R30. In it's last years in the subway, what was the last subway lines it ran on?
And I have a question of my own about the R30. In it's last years in the subway, what was the last subway lines it ran on?
I think they finished their life on the C line. I remember riding them to Rockaway back around 1992 or 1993. The M also had them near the end, but I think the last trains were on the C. The C is probably the last and the M is second to last.
Well the date says May 30, 1993 the last run for the Redbirds R30, but in the webpage its only stated a "Farewell to the R30" fantrip was held on the date above by the Electric Railroaders Association(ERA) but since I was to young to remember their last run did any ran in passenger service after the May 30, 1993 fantrip?
i dont remember the exact day either(i was also too young), but i remember that for a year they were VERY rare
The C line was the R30's last hurrah.
Could somebody please give me the exact date & records when the R30's retired & which were the car #'s on the last run of the R30's?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amin: According to my Book of Last Runs the last trip of the R-30s and R-30A's ran on the C train on June 25,1993. It was composed of 8408-8397-8322-8305-8298-8295-8396-8393.
Thank you Larry,RedbirdR33. I knew that you were the very only one to come up with the answer.
Amin: Your quite welcome.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks, Larry
Thank you Larry,RedbirdR33. I knew that you were the very only one to come up with the answer. Wow 8408 is the movie train which appear in Die Hard 3, Money Train & Blade)& 8397 only appeared in Die Hard 3.
the last prodestants
Wow, that late? I never saw 'em past March!
Wow, that late? I never saw 'em past March.
Chris: Although most of the R-30/30A's had been retired there were about 16 cars that subbornly refused to go. This combined with the tempremental R-44 keep the R-30s running.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Darn, I wish I had looked for them. When the R30's began disappearing after New Years 1993, I didn't realize they were being retired until it was too late. Ditto with the R10's 4 years earlier, although their retirement didn't exactly bring a tear to my eyes.
It did to me.
Isn't it odd how I hate some of the most popular cars on this board (R10, R38), but I love some of the most derided (R44)?
Go figure.
I like the R44 and R46. They give a smooth ride, they're comfortable; the A/C works. The Raiulfan window isn't an issue for me.
Ditto. The foward facing window seat is a big issue for me, which is why I like the 44, 46, 68 & 68A.
Not too long ago, I got my first ride in an R-40 slant. I actually like them better than the R-32's. With the bigger windows they seem roomier inside. Transferring the R-40's to the "E" train would be like a dream come true, though I know the chances of this happening are slim to none, and somehow the R-40M's are just not the same.
The slants actually made their debut on the E and F lines back in 1968. I remember it well. Even my sister liked them, and she's not a subway buff by any stretch of the imagination. Except for a one-stop hop on an F train, I didn't ride on them until they had taken over on the A. Chalk it up to my stubborn refusal to take an E train south of 42nd St.
How could she not like a train with a BIG pink "F" on the front:
That's a nice photo. Thank you for sharing that. They must have been brand-spanking new at this time. I would have loved to see them on the "F". It lacks those hideous guards between the cars. I especially like the way they incorporate the "local" and "express" indicators into the body. Guess all that was done away with after the rebuild.
Believe it or not, I actually didn't notice that humungous F the first time I saw those cars! I was so used to looking above the storm door for route and destination signs and was so zeroed in, I just plain didn't see the F. My mother had to point it out to me.
Those lights up there are the local/express markers? Are there any pictures up that close up?
There should be. Try the car roster pages on this site. There has to be a close up of it.
Roster Page
I will like to see the R40 slants back on the A express to Far Rockaway.. And I will love to see how they perform on that long stretch.
N Broadway Line
<<>>
They DID run on the E and F in the mid-1970s. You should have heard the noise they made going through Woodhaven Blvd. Wow! THAT was express service, no firggin timers on the line....
The a/c is noticeably worse than on most other models. IINM, there's less refrigerant per cubic foot than in the smaller cars. R-46's are often humid.
Personally, I find the R-26/28/29/32/33/36/38/42 bench seats by far the most comfortable in the system. The R-44/46 isn't that great to stand on, either -- my hands, at least, don't naturally wrap around a square.
And I find the interior decor to be about as attractive as that other TA creation of the 70's: the so-called bathroom tile at BMT local stations. It's exceptionally pretentious, and I find it downright unpleasant.
Most of that is a matter of taste, of course. Those who like the R-44/46 are in luck, or moreso, at least, than those who like the Redbirds. One fact that isn't a matter of taste is that the R-44/46/68/68A handles tight crowds poorly.
Everybody has their own taste. Nothing wrong with that.
<<<"Isn't it odd how I hate some of the most popular cars on this board (R10, R38), but I love some of the most derided (R44)?">>>
Chris, I'll give you soem backup here. The R44/46, with their blue stripe, super quiet run, and "new car smell" WERE really something in the 1970s. As a kid, I loved them.
Now, they don't look too good at all, especially with those yellow LCD side displays, the blue stripe gone, and the spot where the stripes went all beat up and dented.
The R30's should have never been retired as early as they did.. They were in very wonderful shape! and they could have address the problems of car shortage.. like the G train.
N Broadway Line
I also didn't realize they were getting rid of them before it was too late. I rode one on the C Train, and never realized that would be the last time I would ever be on one. For most of my childhood they were on the J/M/Z. I hated them at the time, as they were filthy wrecks, not quite as bad as the R16's, but bad just the same. Then they got that great "redbird" paint scheme, and I started to like them. Just when they looked the best in their lives, they disapeared.
Even though they could have lasted must longer, I do understand the reason behind their retirement. They just would have been too heavy for the els if converted to air conditioning.
For most of my childhood they were on the J/M/Z.
I meant J/M/L. Obviously the Z wasn't "born" yet.
This has been my experience with the R30's as well.. They were terrible loud and dirty.. But once they fixed them up, they were gone.. What a WASTE of PUBLIC resources!
"Even though they could have lasted must longer, I do understand the reason behind their retirement. They just would have been too heavy for the els if converted to air conditioning."
Transit riders were living without air condition for years.. why the sudden change?
N Bwy
Wow, that late? I never saw 'em past March.
Chris: Although most of the R-30/30A's had been retired there were about 16 cars that subbornly refused to go. This combined with the tempremental R-44 keep the R-30s running.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
I notice that the numbers were not the original married pairs. Was this common?
Yes it was. The R-27/30s had couplers on both ends of each car, so they could be mixed and matched at will. The R-26s and R-28s originally had couplers on both ends, then during GOH received drawbars.
Had a birthday on 6/25, yeah a whole 51 years old but don't feel that old thank God. Anyway a good friend of mine was over the other day and had a belated gift for me. Much to my surprise it was a giant subway map the type they have in the stations. I beleive it was the 7/01 map. Has the notice about the 63rd St connecter and of course before that terrible day of 9/11. He said he got it on E-Bay.
I had one of those maps mounted and on my wall when I was a kid many years ago. I was living in Atlanta at the time, and unfortunately, I got rid of it when my family moved...
Boy do I regret that!
I still kick myself for giving away my Nolan Ryan rookie card when we moved to Connecticut in 1973.
Hi guys, any of you plan to be at the NMRA convention at Fort Lauderdale, Fl.? I will be there, i can't wait to be there, and meet
the dealers.
I attended the convention two years ago in St. Louis. Far superior to the Greenberg and GATS shows although the NMRA show doesn't display as nearly as many club layouts as Greenberg and GATS. It was exciting to see all the new cars, motive power, DCC and control systems, etc., before the ads appeared in the model railroad press. What I enjoyed most was speaking with manufacturers representatives who could talk intelligently about the new products, rather than just people who ran booths selling merchandise. Watching the MR staff build the conference layout was pretty neat.
It was also fun speaking with the editors of MR, RMC, etc., who attended the convention.
While you were all out baking in the Smoky afternoon sun, I was in the cool of the computer room devising a plan for the Second Avenue Subway.
This plan includes an extension along 125th Street, and another following Third Avenue in the Bronx extending to Broadway and Van Cortlandt Park. The (W) (Q) and (V) trains will run on Third Avenue, and a table demonstrates possible routings for other affected lines.
Elias
(This plan includes an extension along 125th Street)
You know, I saw another map of the Second Ave in a conference room. Instead of having the 2nd Avenue make two turns and come into 125th Street paralell to the Lex, this one had it make one turn and come in on 125th Street itself, extended to Park. Under this plan, there will just a couple of crowded stairwells for Lex riders to transfer, but MetroNorth riders get a direct transfer also. It should be noted that the Upper East Side hospitals and universities are important job generators in and of themselves.
This plan also makes a "someday" extension along 125th Street as a crosstown feasible.
Instead of having the 2nd Avenue make two turns and come into 125th Street paralell to the Lex, this one had it make one turn and come in on 125th Street itself, extended to Park. Under this plan, there will just a couple of crowded stairwells for Lex riders to transfer, but MetroNorth riders get a direct transfer also.
I've seen that map, somewhere, as well. And it's a very smart idea. If Metro North riders can get seats on a fast, new subway, some of them will ride it all the way downtown. This requires using the Broadway express tracks with Stubway trains, of course.
This ought to alleviate at least SOME of the LIRR madness heading our way.
Interesting how the line after turning on to Webster Ave mimics the old 3rd Ave L (stationwise that is).
I like the plan, a lot of similatities to mine when it comes to manhattan and the bronx, but you should understand the NIMBY opposition your line would face in the bronx when the line curves west because thats Riverdale, Kingsbridge, and they would fight any line going there to the death. People along Second Avenue and Webster/ Third Avenues would love the line, most other places would hate it.
I like the plan, a lot of similatities to mine when it comes to manhattan and the bronx, but you should understand the NIMBY opposition your line would face in the bronx when the line curves west because thats Riverdale, Kingsbridge, and they would fight any line going there to the death. People along Second Avenue and Webster/ Third Avenues would love the line, most other places would hate it. How about sending another branch east towards Co-Op City, I bet they would love a subway line to death as well, they are getting MetroNorth, and what not. My line goes through several commercial sectors and goes along routes that people would want them to aviod less Nimby Opposition and it follows the Guidelines of serveral lines in the IND Second System Plan, what was your guideline?
Christopher...
My original plan for the Second Avenue line was to terminate it at Fordham University. Because Second Avenue is going to be a two track line (boo....hisss......) I thought it unsuitable for CoOp City.
Besides, my plan calls for it to be served by both the Fifth and Ninth Avenue Subways. The Idea is that a new two track line will follow Grand Concourse (But without making any stops) to 205th Street and then to follow Burke Avenue as an elevated to CoOp City.
Of course an extenison of the IND would do the same thing but.... with tons of local stops. The Fifth and Ninth Avenue lines do not connect (route wise) with the existing system, but run on new ROW with some super express runs. It is these lines that will serve the out-lying areas. A non stop run from 205th Street to 149th Street is not without its appeal.
Elias
What routing does the line take after Fordham University? It appears to run under Mosholu Parkway, which is a plausible route - serves Montefiore Hospital for example. There should be a track connection to the Concourse Yards, to allow for equipment moves. There is a very steep drop in elevation from the Jerome-Mosholu location down to Broadway; would the station at Van Cortlandt Park actually be above ground (much like the 1 train emerges from the Fort George Hill at Dyckman Street)?
I wasn't looking at a topo map, but yes, I'd expect the line to emerge from under Mosholu Parkway and run elevated, perhaps skirting the edge of Van Cortlandt park to end at Broadway with a transfer to the (1) train. It starts to answer the questions of a Cross Bronx Line but it crosses Grand concourse itself north of the IND. Transfers to the east can be accomplished in the neighborhood of 205th street with a connection to the NEW Fifth (and (Ninth) avenue lines to CoOp City.
Elias
Elias,
I like your plan and as usual we have similar ideas. I am still working on my "fantasy" subway.
I bought MS Streets and Tips to map out my lines like you do. However, I find it difficult to work with.
Your strip map was great, what software did you use to create it?
Regards,
Alan-scott
BTW, I am actually in New York this week!
Alan...
Some tips on streets and trips:
1) I usually select a line width of 3 or 4 points, and then I select the line color that I want to use. Then I use the free shape tool not the line tool to draw the lines. If you click and drag the tool you will be drawing freehand, and that is not so neat. But if you just click to make points, MS will make a straight line between those two points, and the tool is still armed, and so you can make whole lines of points, you can ease them around the corners by makeing three or four points in the corner.
2) Once a line is on the map you can highlight it to change its width or color, but even better, you can grab (click on the line) at any point and move it, adjusting it this way or that, and thus add a new point which will help you round out the curves. You can also re-route a line that you have drawn. Suppose you drew the line down Houston Street, but later want to move it to bleeker: Just highlight the line, left click on the individual points and move them to a different street.
3) You can cut anpaste lines. I made a separate map for the IND, the BMT and the IRT (ala the 1960s arrangement) and then I made a composite map by opening the IND map, saving it as "Composite Map" and then in a new window opening the BMT map. You then can click on each line segment, copy it, and then paste it on the composite map. And on the composite map, you can paste it anywhere, even in MOSCOW and it will still show up on the Brighton Line! This saves a lot of repeat work.
4) Once I have a base map of the whole system, I can open a copy of it, save it as say Myrtle-Fifth and then add my new subway line.
5) Make each line segment long enough so that you can move the whole "Brighton Line" at once, but not so long as you have to move the whole thing when you only needed a section. In other words, Put your new lines in in sections so that you do not have to kill the whole thing if you need change something.
6) If you have too many points on a line, say you made a line al the way to hempstead, and want now to end it at the county line, you can delet points. Right click on a point, and select delete.
I enjoy making and changing lines with this program, and I think it is great once you get used to it.
DONT CLICK on that Paint Pot color, or it will think that your line is an enclosed thing and make a big blotch of color. But then you can open that menu again and select "none" so nothing is lost if you play with that.
STRIP MAPS....
You can use any good photo program (such as PhotoShop) to make strip maps, you can even do so in Microsoft "Paint" but that is a .bmp raster program, and once somehing is made is cannot be unmade.
I use Seriff's DrawPlus 5.0 (www.seriff.com) (I think). It costs $9.95. Well ok it costs a lot more, but they always send out these special prices and you can get the older version as "the Newest and the BEST" several hours before they come out with their newest release. I have several copies of their DrawPluss, PhotoPlus, and PagePlus programs. I think they are worth the money.
DrawPlus is a vector program, and I know little of its finer points, but each idem that you place remains a distinct item that can be edited, moved, deleted or copied. It also exports my drawings to .jpg .gif or .bmp formats (also many others that I don't use.
With that program it is best just to play with it until you are able to do what you want with it.
Enjoy : ) Elias
I use Seriff's DrawPlus 5.0 (www.seriff.com) (I think).
But think again! It is Serif and www.serif.com. the extra 'f' was my 'f'ault! : (
: ) Elias
Elias,
Thanks for the info & suggestions . I already use MS Streets that way. I just find that it doesn't work the way I'd like it do. Guess I am kind of fussy, but I don't like it, especially the way the lines stay the same size when you zoom in and out. I also got frustrated trying to use the pushpins when I was only able to use a limited number.
I have also tried Photoshop and find that cumbersome. I may check out some of the other software you've suggested.
I noticed that the MTA strip maps are just in Table format (I cut and pasted into MS Word and frontpage), so I am going to check into using that.
I am on vacation now in NYC and don't have access to my own PC (which is back in PA) so I'll have to wait till I get back.
Regards,
A-sB
"I also got frustrated trying to use the pushpins "
You use the push pins????
I have never used them.
Yes the lines do not scale in suze as you move in and out.
You asked for a 4pt thick line starting at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and running to Fulton-Euclid, and that is what it will give you regardless of what scale you are showing the map in.
It is a limitation, but it has not bothered me.
Elias
Again, no R143 cars were seen. I expect, nased on previous weekends, to see them around the start of the Monday (tomorrow) AM Rush. I will post the next update tomorrow. For this week I will be off Wed., Thurs., Fri., and Sat. so Tuesday (7/9/02) will be the last update for this week. After Tuesday, the next update will be SUnday, 7/14/02.
The usual disclaimer applies. (I might ave missed some or some may be in yards.) As a Station Agent,, i do not have access to yards and my schedule (as a Lunch Relief) does not take my past any yar ds. Any one spotting any in yards, feel free to sound off!
The question speaks for it self.I for one have gotten a R62A on the 7 more often in the past 2 months than an R36 while I have yet to even see a R143 run with any regularity on the L.Yet you have a slew of them sitting in the ENY yard.What is reason for the inactivity?(FYI-all the overnight trips on the 7 last night/this morning where R62a's).
Are you only riding on weekends? Then you wouldn't see any, but on weekdays, several are running.
Does anyone know when they will start running them on weekends. With sending the R-40's to CI, they will reach a point when they will need to run the R-143's on the weekend.
How many trains of R143's are actually on the L right now?
When did you ride the L ? For some reason,not known to me, the R143 dont run from late Friday PM until Monday AM Rush. I am guessing that they are waiting for more crews to bequalified before running them on weekends.
Another guess is also the common weekend split L service.(8th Ave to Broadway Jct and Broadway Jct to Canarsie.) I am working a lunch on the Line from 8th Ave to Bedford.
During the last week, I have seen a total of 6 trains running every day.
At the rate they're scrapping the 9300's and 9400s, the R62A will become quite commonplace on the #7. Does anybody have the current assignment unit numbers for the Corona R62A?
wayne
The current amount of R 62As on the 7 line is 100 cars. 1676-1715 married sets. and 2096-2155 single cars.the 93/9400s are almost all gone.
I did see one set of R62's last Friday on a morning rush hour train, and one redbird set had a single R33 unit on it.
The R-143s appaarently leave the yard togeher on Mondays, so that four or five trains will run back-to-back, followed by a series of R-40M/R-42 trains. So if you happen to be on the L at the right time, catching a R-143 is easy, while at other times, it may seem as if they're nowhere to be found.
I went to Flushing today, and my Metrocard was still doing READ ERROR on the bus and in the subway it said "Please Swipe Again".
So I went to the token booth, where I gave the Metrocard to the lady, who put in a machine (looked sorta like a bus farebox)and said that the bus corrupted my Metrocard, not just once, but twice, according to the computer. I will have to go to Jay street and get another RFM.
Fortunately she was very nice and gave me two slips of paper for entry to the subway, so I won't have to pay extra when I go Jay street tomorrow.
I did pay with change (using my RFM as ID) on the buses, since I didn't want to push my luck with the drivers.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Metrocard (I wonder where they derived that name from?) is a magnetic stripe card, not a smart card with an embedded chip, right?
-Robert King
Yes, Metrocard uses a magnetic strip.
If any Subtalkers want to get the low down on matters of transit, just talk to my dispatcher at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, Dan Lawrence. The man is absolutely brilliant!
E_DOG
Why do I get the impression that a lot of people on this board have just been insulted????
Or is it Eric trying to start a controversy?
Only time will tell.
It's not insulting. I just have what some call an edatic memory - I retain almost everything I observe, read, or particpate in. My transit/streetcar stuff above the eyebrows goes back to the 1950's.
I don't flaunt it, but ask and you usually receive.
edatic, should be EIDOTIC. This word is of Greek origin and it's root is the word EIDOS which means "That which I see". Another word which shares the same root is kalEIDOScope.
EIDOTIC should be eidetic. If making corrections, correct correctly.
Ok, Thank you.
Or is it Eric trying to start a controversy?
Not this time. What he said is true - Dan has a tremendous knowledge of Baltimore stuff in general and streetcar stuff in particular. I've known Dan for a long time and can vouch for that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You must have lost your damn mind. I just praised a guy. How in hell is that starting a controversy?
E_DOG
i still have a TON of questions. ..on rail tranist to ask ........!!
until THEN i will have to settle for being a DUMMY ............!!
.................!
Wha? The fact that Lawrence is smart makes no one else a dummy. The man knows his stuff and I simply tip my hat to him.
E_DOG
and if salaamallah has a question that I may be able to answer, feel free to post or e-mail.
Got that Salaam? Go to the source.
E_DOG
oh no!! .............i guess i now know where to go !!!
2 get the truth from DA' EXPERTS...!!!
>>>>>>>>thankz..........
Who is Dan Lawrence?
Here's a question for Mr. Lawrence:
Is there anything you can tell me about cars 4533 and 4662 at BSR? I have basic builders info on both (Brill, 1904), but I know nothing of their design, condition, current situation, outlook for restoration, etc. Any help is GREATLY appreciated... of course, OTOH I'm planning to stop by BSR in August, so I'll see the cars for myself then.
Frank Hicks
Frank, firstly, it's BSM (Baltimore Streetcar Museum) not BSR.
4533 first. Brill 1904, rebuilt by UR&E 1924 to 1-Man Safety car. Restored by BSM 1970-2001 (yes, 31 years) Car appears as restored in the BSM section of nycsubway.org. Run's great!!
4662 - Brill 1904. Never rebuilt, remains in two-man configuration. Out of service, stored on track 3. Car had its orginal Brill 21 truck with WH101B motors were taken by Baltimore Transit for a new rail grinder, 3737. (3737 scrapped 1956) Car has a Lord Baltimore model 49 truck improperly mounted by BTC, possibly from the old 3737, a converted Brownell (1898), similar to our 1050. We are currently in search of a Brill 21 truck, 8'6" wheelbase to properly re-equip the car.
E-mail me when you plan to visit in August - I'll clear my schedule to meet. We can talk at length then.
As we have now entered a world of 60/40 Federal funding, it is obvious that a Second Avenue Subway must be STARTED and COMPLETED soon. Since the government agencies are in no hurry, I have decided to see if the private sector can take this project over. Of course, this necessitates a few questions to the transit experts we have assembled:
1) Should I make this system subway-compatible, commuter rail compatible, or should I go fully ATO and forget about them?
2) LIM subway cars can reduce the profile necessary for tunnels with low-floor cars, as used in Japan, while maintaining ceiling space. They may also allow me to use Airtrain. What are LIM (linear induction motor) cars' pros and cons?
3) Should I run a subway via 3 Avenue and Boston Road to Co-op City, use AMTRAK right-of-way to get there (betcha it's cheaper than ever), or tunnel under I-95 to run near Throgs Neck?
4) Should I purchase PATH and integrate that system into mine? I've been tempted to look at that possibility, although I would have to use smaller cars. I've also looked at taking over commuter rail service south of Mount Vernon West and Yonkers to integrate into my system.
Just a few words about my system, in case any investors are present. The MTA says that 578,000 trips would be made each day on this system. 346,800 would be paid trips as I expect almost 40% of passengers to transfer from other lines. Stations would be spaced between 1/2 mile and 3/4 mile from each other. Line capacity would be 65,000-80,000 passengers per hour per direction due to strategically placed multi-track stations which would allow up to three trains traveling in the same direction to load and unload AT THE SAME TIME, greatly decreasing headway.
Reponses please.
The cars need to be compatable with the rest of the system, at least for the Second Avenue Subway, since, as you can see by my map, they will move on and off of other routes n the system.
Both the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway and the Metropolitan-Ninth Avenue Subway are fully isolated from the rest of the system and do run their own high speed equipment.
As you can see, I prefer to run the Bronx Extension to Broadway via Third Avenue, to give the Bronx some crosstown capablilit in that direction. Also both the 5th and 9th Avenue subway serve CoOp City. A new two track line is to be put right along side of the Concourse line, but the new line does not actually stop along the consourse, nor does it *really* share trackage with them. All current Concourse trains will stop at Bedford Park Road, and the new lines will pick ub 205th Street, and then once clear of the park, will run elevated along Burke Avenue right into CoOp City. Since these are high speed trains, they will make faster time than going down the 2nd avenue LOCAL!
Elias
Since the government agencies are in no hurry, I have decided to see if the private sector can take this project over.
Yay!!!!!!!!
1) Should I make this system subway-compatible, commuter rail compatible, or should I go fully ATO and forget about them?
Go with ATO. Higher speeds, lower headways and of course bigger railfan windows are possible with that. Add to that "pneu" technology for better acceleration. For cheaper build, use cars that are only 2 metres (6'7" approx) wide, with 13 metre (42'8" approx) long cars, running 6 car trains.
3) Should I run a subway via 3 Avenue and Boston Road to Co-op City, use AMTRAK right-of-way to get there (betcha it's cheaper than ever), or tunnel under I-95 to run near Throgs Neck?
Take over the AMTRAK ROW! But build a 3rd Av - Webster Av - Mosholu Pkwy Subway as well right into Westchester County.
4) Should I purchase PATH and integrate that system into mine? I've been tempted to look at that possibility, although I would have to use smaller cars. I've also looked at taking over commuter rail service south of Mount Vernon West and Yonkers to integrate into my system.
Start small, build the best system you can to 21st Century standards. Only take over other people's railroads if you can make them conform to those standards.
strategically placed multi-track stations which would allow up to three trains traveling in the same direction to load and unload AT THE SAME TIME, greatly decreasing headway.
Expensive and unnecessary. Pneu and ATO will allow 60 tph on any track. If the subway were four track, 120 tph in both directions would be possible. I don't think you'd even need half of that.
Please explain how "pneu" technology (by which I assume rubber tires) can increase a line's capacity and/or a train's acceleration capabilities.
David
According to the location map on Metro-North Railroad's site, there are tracks continuing past Port Jervis Rail Station westward. Where does this track lead to?
Well, ulimately at one time Chicago. This is a surving segment of the Erie, later Erie-Lackawanna about which much history has been published, and a google search should net muvh info.
That is currently the NS Southern Tier Line that runs to Buffalo via Binghamton. It was at one time the only Conrail East-West double-stack line (something envisioned by the Erie-Lackawana back in the 1960's). As you go west there is a fork in the line and one track does to Buffalo (still used) and the other line was the old Erie RR route to Chicago. The tracks are still intact at least all the way to Meadville PA, although they might be out of service (but a shortline recently bought them and are going to put them back in service). Most of the former Erie Hi-speed main through Ohio and Indiana are out of service or abandonned.
I have received an answer from 5301 Fishbowl about this, but if anyone has any extensive info. or history please post your responses here.
As far as I'm concerned, the Redbirds have been taking too long to die. Kill the bastards once and for all and be done with it!
E_DOG
Yup, they are a going...
But....
They gotta find a different part of the ocean to dum 'em in
And....
They is still usin' some of 'em as backup whilest the 142s got to get some of them teething pains out o da way.
Oh Well...
Now what else shall we kill....
The ocean's a pretty big place. I think there's plenty of room for em'.
E_DOG
the 40S,40M and 42's are the next to be 'killed' once the 160's come in and thats another few years away.
over my dead body. let them try to take away my slants.
:)
38s and possibly the R42cis will go first
I think the R40's are going before either of those though.
Oh no!!! Slant 40's are on my Sea Beach train and I want to keep the R-40's around for awhile. They still run very well from what I can tell, and from what I've been hearing there are a lot of other cars that run like pigs and should be retired first.
SBF, this AM returning home on 31th Street, Astoria, had a set of
slants overhead southbound. Don't know if they were an "N" or "W",
though. There still alive.
;-) Sparky
I love the slants also, but I heard here once that they are really starting to rust. I will hate to see them go, but if they are rusting more than some of the other cars, I'm sure the MTA will retire them. Hopefully they are not as bad as I heard they were.
not as bad as the 38s
Yeah, I like the R-40 slants myself. Somehow they seem roomier than the R-32's. Kinda wish they'd use a few R-40's on the "E" train.
from prior posts, it seems that the 38s will most likely be the first to go, IMO the R40M should be the last to go(that is if no R32/46s are retired)
the 38's arent gonna be retired,but they sure as hell will be running on other than the A and C when the 160's come in.as i think ive mentioned before,the A will be entirely R160.
how do you know that the A will be 160? i think the A will probably go R46, or R68A
The R160s will probably(IMO) go to the J,M,E,F,G,R,V
because i was already told this by someone who works at MTA H.Q.
From what i understand,the A has always mantained it ''show piece'' status,and the T.A. wants to continue the status quo... the R160 rail cars[5 car units]will serve on the 8th ave subway out of Pitkin Yards,with the first units going directly to the ''A'' line until the line is full.Whatever is left after that will be used on the ''C''. The 4 car R160 units will[not maybe]go to the ENY Yard for service on the ''J/Z'',then ''M''.During this time,the R40m/42 cars will be tranfered out to the south until the new cars arrive there to send them to the scrap heap......
I agree with you that the A will be the first to get the R160's for the reason you mentioned. I don't think so for the C though. The C has traditionally always gotten the oldest equipment, at least in rescent years. The R10's lived out their lives there, as well as the R27-30's. The equipment it has now is also the oldest of the 60 foot cars, so as the new trains come, the C will probably become whatever is the last few 60 foot cars are left, whether it be the R32, 38, 40 or 42's, or a combination of different trainsets, the last to be retired. If what I hear on this board is true, it'll probably be the R32's that survive the longest, so they will be on the C for quite some time yet.
The C used to get old equipment when it was a rush hour-only service. That is no longer the case.
Now it runs all day and still gets old equipment. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The C was the last line to run the R-30's, and it was an all-day service at the time. Not being much of a railfan yet, but still knowing that certain lines had narrower cars than others, I was a little bit surprised to see a Redbird pull into Broadway-Nassau. I got on and rode it to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, having no idea that they'd be retired before I next had the opportunity to ride the C. Oh well.
a "showpeice" line would not run R44/38s
where else would you send them? Thats what Pitkins RTO crews are trained for[becides 32s],and with the R143/160 CARS coming,there are training for them also.years ago,the D was in the same shape if not worst than the A.All R40m/42 service of the worst kind,until the 68/68a's came along. NOW they[r68]have the track record in the system besides the 62s.[thanks to Concourse yards caring about their work]Not to mention that the R38/44 cars were beautiful after GOH,BUT lets face facts, the 38 are 35 years old,44's 28 years,and they are beat DOWN!!!SO if you place them SOMEWHERE else, the same PROBLEM will exist some where FOR SOMEONE ELSE.So the best thing for them? They stay where they are,be repaired when they brake down,and WAIT until the new cars come in and are accepted for service.
R-38's are maintained at 207.
doesnt the same thing apply there?[
Yeah, I wuz just being annoying.
ok ok. i gotcha.... thats what this board is all about. lets have fun with it!!! have a great day ,dude!
While we're at it, so are the R32GE.
The R-38's will be retired by the R-160. It'll be R-38/40/40M/42. After that, who know if the 44's or the 32's will go first.
Odds are the 44 will be going,given the size of the option contract[660 cars at first draw, over 1000 option]should fairly kill any ideas about them beging around after 2010[and even to say that,Im giving them way too much credit].So I'm gonna enjoy them now,while I can.They will be going they way of the REDBIRDS.....
i'll repeat it just once more and sorry if you like the slants like crazy but they,just like everything else in this world,gotta go,go,go!
the R40S,40M and ALL 42's will be retired when the 160's start coming in which might be after the bridge rehab in 2004.with that monster car order think of all the possible route extensions and who knows what else.the A i dunno about the C,will be all R160.in turn the 38's and 44's will go elsewhere.and when all the 42's are gone,the 32's and maybe the 38's will rule the J,M,Z .So happy trails to the R40 and R42's because thier days will soon be coming to a halt.
Good job on that B.S. In case you didn't know, the order will include 4 car sets AND 5 car sets. 4 car sets will head to the Eastern Division (J, M, Z) and the rest will head out of the system.
the 40S,40M and 42's are the next to be 'killed' once the 160's come in and thats another few years away
I wonder if they are going to go "sleep with the fishes" like the Redbirds.
Nah I see them being melted and used for other things, you might have an R40S in your room in 5 years!
Kitchen is the next stop. Watch the closing doors.....
yea they said they keeping the best of the redbirds, which i say are the R33 mainlines and the R33 WF
AAAAGGGHHHH!!!! MINDLESS VIOLENCE!!
They'll be in service on the 4 and 5 lines until next Spring, although far fewer than there are today.
You might want to wait a little while, 'till they figure out what the deal was with that R-142 linkbar seperation incident last week (human error? metalurgy failure?) and get the problem with the extra wear on the cars' brakes fixed.
No point in having the A Division go through its own version of 1979-80 on the B Division with the R-46s in the role of the R-142s...
riiiiiiiight.
ok you gonna pay for this ??
salaam!
i rode the 5 and 7 today and saw not 1 redbird!!!
Theyre goin fast
SAVE THE R 29s!!!!!
no redbirds on the #7 ??? by this august / setember ???...........!
It's a distinct possibility. Too bad for you.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow, they are going fast on the 7. It seems like yesterday that everyone was so excited because the first R62 set arrived on the 7.
Relax they're still plenty of redbirds still left on the 7 but they're mostly GEs and they'll be here to stay for a little while. The ones on the 4 and 5 you better get your pics now because those are going to go pretty fast with the arrival of the R142/R142A. Today, there were only about 4 sets of R62A's on the 7: 3 transverse 1 single set. I did see that 1686-1690 have made it back to their proper home: the 7.
I went to the DoubleHeader at Shea-UGH! I do not need to say anymore about that!!! Had the same train both ways but different cars: 9674 going 9660 coming back from Shea. Both descent with a/c.
#9660 7 Flushing Local
Curse out the Redbirds, bitch about the window scratchitti but maintained Redbird HVAC will take you home in comfort. R22 HCFC is a far better refrigerant than R134A. Gimme Redbirdsky Siberia...New Tech stinks cuz it makes too much noise and doesn't get cold enough faster. CI Peter
Why do the new cars have such loud fans, anyway? (Interpret that however you wish.)
One of the TA engineers bugs me about wavering....love of old versus New Tech. The squirrel cage blowers circulating air from the evaporators are pretty much the same sans Redbird DC versus R142 AC. What is different is the air circulation...R142s have a battery of ducts to cool off the storm doors and the ceiling ventilation appears to be alittle closer to your head. To make matters worse, R142 AC works harder because the R142A refrigerent has a higher boiling point than Redbird R22. You can go into a cold Redbird and freeze while you can go into a 'cooled R142' and sweat. The noise is from the evaporator air flow....noise is less in the middle of the R142 car...what I do during inspection is shut off the DC control systems for one of the air conditioning units to make a 'quiet end.' These trainsets were designed for transport, not comfort. CI Peter
why could not the AC equipment be made SIMPLE ?? was that just tooo
dammed hard to do ?? ...like build em in the USA too ....!!!..??
it must be something in the mind by the folks who draw this stuff on
paper !! why not just KEEP IT SIMPLE & build em' like they used to??
You don't understand, Salaam. They don't want to make them so they last. They don't want to build them here anymore because it costs too much. They want them to be built so it lasts a short period of time and then breaks. Take the new Orion V CNG buses (which I hate with a passion) for example. The water pump uses a plastic impeller! Certainly not the standards to which the GMC and Flxible New Looks were built.
It pains me so to see the redbirds being retired. I feel as bad now (if not worse) than when the Low-V's were taken out of service. As far as I'm concerned, the R-142/A doesn't even remotely resemble a redbird. In theory they SHOULD last 40 years. It'll be a miracle if they last half that.
I think we've got more than one person here who doesn't understand.
The R-142s have air conditioners that use new-tech refrigerant because that's the L-A-W. The older air conditioners use R-22 (that's a refrigerant, not a subway car class in this case), which is being phased out. The newer ones use R-134a, which (as "juice" pointed out) doesn't seem to be as effective, but it IS "greener," producing fewer pollutants. Want to go back to R-22 air conditioners? Get the law changed (good luck).
David
Couldn't the R-22 in the Redbirds be transferred to the new cars? That would be legal, I think.
Do the other cars all use R-22?
I read your post out of context, and hadn't seen the posts before it and I was trying to figure out what you meant. At first read it sounded like you wanted to call the new cars "R22"...legal I assume? It took me a few minutes to realize you were talking about air conditioning!
That would be legal, but it IS NOT worth the time or ( especially) effort required to do it. More likely than not the HVAC manufacturer will object to this being done. It would be difficult, if possible to do. When the R22 wears out, it will be replaced with R134a.
Who cares what the HVAC manufacturer wants? If R-22 cools better than R-134a, and it's legal to use existing R-22, and the TA has R-22 on hand, why throw it out and replace it with an inferior product?
The new systems are manufactured to use refrigerant R-134a. Systems that use R-22 can continue using it for the next few years, after which production will be outlawed.
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/phaseout/58fr65018.html
The above document (dated 1993) says that production of R-22 will be phased out after 2010 and outlawed after 2020. The government will allow only enough R-22 to be produced between 2010 and 2020 (at least for U.S. use) to service equipment built before January 1, 2010. Since the new subway cars NYCT is buying are expected to be in service well past 2020, would it have made sense to buy air conditioners made to run on R-22, knowing they would have to be replaced or converted?
The pre-R-110 cars all use R-22. To my knowledge (and "OnTheJuice" or another Car Equipment person can correct me if I'm wrong), the refrigerant on NYCT subway cars IS recycled.
David
If the refrigerant is recycled (in-house), then why does it matter if R-22 production is outlawed after 2020? Can't the old R-22 be used indefinitely? There's a huge supply in the cars that are about to be retired. Pass it on to the new cars. What's the leakage rate? Keep a 50-year supply in storage and stick with R-22 through the R-160 order. The a/c on the R-142's is noticeably louder and less effective than on older cars and I don't see the need to put up with it (yet).
I don't know what the leakage rate is, but undoubtedly there is SOME leakage or there wouldn't be a need to stock ANY refrigerant, recycled or otherwise.
Here's the actual paragraph (and its follower) from that 1993 EPA document I provided the URL for before:
"The production and consumption of HCFC-142b and HCFC-22 will be frozen at baseline levels in 2010, with a complete phaseout of these chemicals by January 1, 2020. Production and consumption of these chemicals between 2010 and 2020 can only be for the purpose of servicing equipment manufactured prior to January 1, 2010. Production and consumption of the remaining HCFCs will be frozen at baseline levels beginning January 1, 2015, with all uses of virgin production of these materials banned except for use as a feedstock or as a refrigerant in appliances manufactured prior to January 1, 2020. The final category of HCFCs would be phased out by January 1, 2030.
The Agency has not established a baseline year or corresponding
levels for these HCFCs at this time. EPA will continue to monitor
the production and consumption of these chemicals to determine
the appropriate baseline to ensure that the requirements of
the Copenhagen Amendments and the Clean Air Act are met. Although
a baseline level may be required in order to establish the appropriate freeze levels in 2010 and 2015 as required under section 605(d) of the Clean Air Act, the Agency believes that action so far
in advance of these dates is neither necessary nor desirable."
Note that in the first sentence it says "production AND consumption." Whether "consumption" includes recycling from one's own systems, I am not in a position to know.
David
Why do you like this Ozone destroying R22 Refrigerant? Its not like the AC on Redbirds was much good at all ( That is, when it worked). R142A's are here to stay and their AC rocks.
You're quite wrong. Run an experiment yourself. Board a Redbird 5 with working a/c (I hate to break it to you, but most Redbirds on the 5 do have working a/c) and ride for a few stops. Wait for an R-142A 6 to pull up across the platform and change trains. You will be warm.
An R-142 with properly functioning a/c is warmer and more humid than any other 51-foot or 60-foot car with properly functioning a/c. Don't be misled by the loud fans.
As for ozone depletion, my understanding is that it's an issue of disposal, not of use. Throwing away perfectly usable R-22 doesn't accomplish anything.
-You're quite wrong. Run an experiment yourself. Board a Redbird 5 with working a/c (I hate to break it to you, but most Redbirds on the 5 do have working a/c) and ride for a few stops. Wait for an R-142A 6 to pull up across the platform and change trains. You will be warm. -
No, the order is wrong. I begin to sweat when I board a redbird ( especially on the 5 since the car is stuffy and the air hardly moves).
Freezing occurs when I board a <6> with the AC turned all the way up ( which is pretty much every ride).
Then your Redbird didn't have properly functioning a/c. (Before you ask, I've been on a good number of R-142's without properly functioning a/c. My comparison isn't with them.) Call the number someone posted in another thread so it gets repaired and try again with a different car.
I don't like R142's. I don't ride R142's. Let's deal only with the R142A's which always have excellent AC, not those Bombsuckier units which AC is crap if it works.
I think the a/c component is identical on the R-142 and the R-142A. Anybody know for sure?
the R142's have a diferent''feel'' to them than the R142A's ...... overall I'd say the 142a was the better car.....
On a hot day, everything is cool. I remember being in a chilly R142A before. Can't say for R142.
Oh, they're better than nothing. They're just not better than their predecessors. (That's why I suggested making the evaluation by moving quickly from one train than another, not just by entering a cool train from a hot platform.) This has been attributed to the refrigerant.
Well..... um... well at least the R142A's are clean, although they occasionally reek of bleach. The Redbirds aren't clean and don't reek of bleach, which is a bad thing. Even if the AC might be better, They are not bright, comfortable , and welcoming like the R142A's are.
I don't think the cleaning crews spend any more time on R-142A's than on R-33's. Get on the train right after it's been cleaned and you'll find a clean train. Get on a few hours later, after a few thousand passengers have had the opportunity to trash it, and you'll find a dirty train. There is one spot on the R-142(A)'s that gets habitually dirty that the cleaners seem to miss every time: the vents on the ceiling. Take a look next time -- they're covered in steel dust and whatever else wafts in, and it shows quite prominently against the white ceiling.
Speaking of which -- if you find white-white-white with smoky blue seats welcoming, be my guest. I find it about as welcoming as an operating room, and the lighting gives me headaches and makes it difficult to see out the windows while underground (I'm afraid I can't rely on the announcements). But if you like it, I don't mind. Really.
CTAs do not clean out ceiling vents thoroughly to the best of my knowledge. Car Inspectors assigned to Carbody Inspection wipe off the exterior surface and may run a brush on the inside edges (usually not.) I thought i had a good idea by spraying 'Tough Guy' interior cleanser solution into the vents only to receive a deluge of black liquid. Air filters in the R142 (8) are changed every inspection but that city/tunnel dirt makes its way past and lodges in the ducts...you have a clean ceiling and run HVAC a few hours only to find more whips of black dust reappear. R142s have very efficient condensation drains, water pours out like from a faucet but that may be because the trainsets are still new. CI Peter
As for ozone depletion, my understanding is that it's an issue of disposal, not of use. Throwing away perfectly usable R-22 doesn't accomplish anything.
Well the reason the EPA is trying to phase out the CFC based refrigerants is that all A/C systems leak. Even a brand new one will leak because hoses are porus, improperly seated O-rings, and so on. So even though the system is in good repair, this 'harmful' stuff still reaches the atmosphere.
I'm still all for R22 anyway. Hey, ozone depletes, harmful rays get in, warming the atmosphere, and then I get in a car with ice cold a/c because of the same R22 that warms the earth. It balances out. :)
But doesn't it reach the atmosphere whether it leaks from an R-142 or from a landfill? Or does the disposal process reduce the leakage concern?
I was just addressing the fact that it leaks when its in use. I don't know the disposal procedure for refrigerant so I can't answer that.
Volcanoes balance out the environment and population as well. Krakatoa, East of Java. R22...ice cold beer. R143a, warm soup and no ice.
R142/R142A trainset HVAC is not effective in the carset....these trains were designed with limited opening windows so the passengers MUST suffer. R22 refrigerant HCFC is not proven to be so damaging to the Earths ozone layers...what has NOT been researched thoroughly is the use of chlorine bleach to whiten clothing, chlorine oxidizers to freshen swimming pools and chlorine gas to purify drinking water.
Chlorine is heavier than air...so is the chlorine in refrigerant chemical compounds...the 'gas'does not break down with exposure to atmosphere or sunlight...but much more enters the environment by the use of 'Clorox.' One thing I have noticed in the shops is that the R142 trainset is very efficient in dehumidifying the car...'kazoo tubes pee out dozens of gallons of reclaimed moisture.' CI Peter
Get it from a country that it is legal in. you can't manufacture it, but you can import it .
Read again the URL I provided from the Environmental Protection Agency. It says the _consumption_ of HCFC-22 will also be illegal.
David
So don't serve it to the passengers as a beverage. Problem solved!
R22 is still legal...it available as a recovered and reprocessed refrigerant. It will be outlawed soon...that was the basis for my EPA refrigerants handling license. A trainset expected to last fourty years cannot use it...thus R143a systems must be employed. Third world nations remain exempt...and guess who is the biggest supplier of refrigeration systems? CHINA! CI Peter
You're missing the point. I'm not referring specifically to the air conditioning (if they want to do an R-134 retrofit, that's fine), I'm saying the quality of the car in general is inferior to its predecessor R-33's and 36's. If the MTA still had it's policy of deferred maintenance (as it did in the '70's), those R-142's wouldn't last 5 years. Even as such, I highly doubt they will still be around some 30 or 40 years from now.
-If the MTA still had it's policy of deferred maintenance (as it did in the '70's), those R-142's wouldn't last 5 years. Even as such, I highly doubt they will still be around some 30 or 40 years from now.-
That's pretty true, the R142's are barely surviving right now and there only 3 or less years old.
The important part is the carbody. The R-142 carbody is made of stainless steel. The R-26 through R-36 carbodies are not. If the problem on the R-142 is the componentry (which seems to be the case here), the problem component(s) can be replaced, whether by Bombardier now under warranty or by NYCT later under the SMS program. The carbodies on the R-26 through R-36 cars are falling apart, and nothing's going to change that.
David
On some cars, I agree. But alot of the redbirds on the "7" appear to have quite a bit of life left in them. The redbirds on the "4" and the "5" do not appear to be in as good a shape. However, I appreciate the fact that these cars still have working LOCAL and EXPRESS indicators. Where there's a will, there's a way. They COULD weld new sheet metal into the carbody at Coney Island shops, but of course, these cars are on their way out. Thing that bothers me most is that with the influx of all these R-142's, they're trying to hasten the death of these tried-and-true workhorses.
On the Redbirds, it's not just the metal we see (though it's certainly problematic). It's the metal we DON'T see -- the framing. All the sheet metal and Bondo in the world won't cure rusted framing.
David
-Where there's a will, there's a way. They COULD weld new sheet metal into the carbody at Coney Island shops, but of course, these cars are on their way out.
That would cost money that the TA doesn't want to spend.
- Thing that bothers me most is that with the influx of all these R-142's, they're trying to hasten the death of these tried-and-true workhorses-
The Redbirds have exceeded their lifespan, and are costing too much to maintain. The point of buying R142 class cars is to hasten the death 0f the redbirds.
"The Redbirds have exceeded their lifespan, and are costing too much to maintain."
- If this is the case, why is it the Redbirds have a higher MDBF than the R-142's? You would think a lesson would have been learned when BOMBardier produced the R-62/A's. In the initial outset, they failed miserably. Shades of the Grumman Flxible 870 in NYC....
THe redbirds have a higher MBDF than the R142's because the R142's suck ass.
Indeed, at the outset the R-62As were problematic. That was 15 years ago, the problems have been fixed, and now the cars are among the system's highest performers.
As for Redbird vs. R-142 reliability, look at the Redbirds vs. the R-142As (Kawasaki). The R-142As do quite well.
In short, it's not the idea, it's the implementation that's not working out well so far with the R-142s. That doesn't mean the cars are going to be unreliable forever.
David
Eleven months on the job working with the oldest and the newest of the IRT line. If the R170 is an IRT car, I'll move. CI Peter
Thing that bothers me most is that with the influx of all these R-142's, they're trying to hasten the death of these tried-and-true workhorses.
I like the redbirds as much as anyone, and they served well, but there time has come. They need to be replaced.
Hey on a similar note, I hated to see the old LIRR diesel trains go. I miss the open vestibules, the GP38's, the F's, the MP15's, but I knew they had to go. They may have been great for the railfans, but were becoming a disaster for the commuters (who the railroad is run for).
Yes the redbirds will be missed, but if it were up to railfans we would still have the Low-V's and the Standards running. The subway has to move on. Whether we like it or not, the subway can't be running vintage equipment.
Ok, I was just reading my latest issue of Car Craft which had a nice article on A/C this month (and learned some nifty stuff too), let's put this 'not as effective' stuff in perspective.
R134a can be more effective as R22 (and R12) if the proper equipment is used (pretty much larger condenser and evaporator frost control). Unfortunately manufacturers want to use basically the same equipment as for the old refrigerants. And on a large scale like TA rolling stock, I guess it would make sense since you could swap parts around easily. But using the old stuff is like doing a retrofit on your car... most of the time its evacuate R12 and put in R134a, replacing in most cases some hose and valves. Yes, it works, but doesn't get as cold.
Want to go back to R-22 air conditioners? Get the law changed (good luck).
I don't know the specifics on the law of R22 (an HCFC), but R12 (a more dangerous for the ozone CFC) can still be used as long as it is replaced by and maintenance is done by a certified technician.
OOOH! What is better to have than my certified EPA tecnicians license is generating a whole page full of responses. I love the smell of ammonia in the morning...it smells like....my RV compressor less refrigerator is leaking...my ice cream will melt and my beer will get warm. I need dry ice and Siberia. Get me the acetylene torch and Leak Lock. Redbird AC is A1. CI Peter
you said :
You don't understand, Salaam. They don't want to make them so they last. ......
i say ....i guess U "R" right it is like everything nowadayz a big
nasty ""throw away society"" even andy rooney on 60 minutes sayz that
almost everything is being thrown out and the waste piles up into da'
streets. even with computers these days piling up high !!
i see your point i guess ...............( sigh )........!!
guess i am from an older time era & think differently .......!!
you said :
""In theory they SHOULD last 40 years. It'll be a miracle if they last half that""
yes i will gieve em under 20 years total !!!
the quality does not go in before the name goes on ......no ...lol.
The Mets are back to their merry losing ways. What can you say about a team that plays in Flushing?
@ dont be so sure SOUTH FERRY (1-9) is on da' case holing em down !!
is this true that no redbirds now run onj the #7 ??
no reds on the # 5 # 4 ?????..........................!
The 7 is still predominantly populated by Redbirds (I ride it every day). There are a few R-62 consists...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
...........whew ........!!
im just saying that on my trip from 125th /lex to 42/5th i saw not one redbird!!! (sniffle)
during the week ?? or a slow lazy smoky sunday ??...............??\
.........................!
on a monday rush hour
BUt the silver birds are comming like the locusts.
Isn't it horrible? They just seem to keep multiplying. Ick!
You make it seem bad. I would rather ride a shiny silverbirds than one of those rusty redbirds...
If you say so. I'm a firm believer in making do with what you have for as long you can. I still get teary-eyed thinking about when M.S.B.A. retired the last of the GM Fishbowls. But I digress....
I understand what you're saying, but it's kind of hard when the 'birds are practically dying.
There are only 7 R62's on the line unless if more have arrived. When you go pay a visit, you will only occasionally see one.
What are "Silverbirds"?
r-62 ..?
If there are no "Redbirds" on the #7 line it wouldn't surprise me at this point. Now they've been probably replaced with R-62As.
#3 West End Jeff
The replacement of the #7 fleet is nowhere near complete at this point.
David
I'm aware of that since I get "The Bulletin" from the New York division of the Electric Railroaders' Association.
#3 West End Jeff
If the answer was already known to "West End Jeff," why did he bother posting the question?
David
I posted the question to correct my error in thinking that all of the "Redbirds" on the No.7 line were replaced with R-62As.
#3 West End Jeff
is this true that no redbirds now run on the #7 ??
no reds on the # 5 # 4 ?????..........................!
>>>As far as I'm concerned, the Redbirds have been taking too long to die. Kill the bastards once and for all
and be done with it! <<<
Um, agreed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There are still enough (but not enough) Red Birds on the #4 to make one realize that all is well with the world.
good ! that will make a going by yankee stadium rail fan window view
video look real good !!
cannot wait until this august-setember !!
THE BARGES ARE BACK! Repent Ye Sinners. CI Peter
A POX on you!
Voodoo! Voodoo!! LOL!
E_DOG
shots like this one video / still will be impossible with those new
overseas junkers the r-142s ...............ugh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SAY GOODBYE TO THE RAILFAN WINDOW FOREVER !!!
shots like this one video / still will be possible with those new
overseas junkers the r-142s ...............ugh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
proff is n da pooding!!!!!!! WAWAWAWA
A POX on you too!
World's Fair redbird! The main reason I always ask the crew office to keep me away from the 7 line. The brakes are terrible on those things. I won't miss them.
Don't forget to get your POX shot. Heh. Yeah, those things are in SORRY shape, shame to see them go but then again, those hosers replaced my beloved LoV's. :)
ON THE #7 ??
Yep, the "WF LoV's" ended up on the third avenue el in the Bronx. They were different from the standard LoV's (and NEWER, Queens always got the newest IRT toys until THIS time) but they were pretty much similar otherwise. But yeah, there were LoV's over yonder too.
Moo, brother! :)
Now if only the MUSEUM trains of LowVs still did special fantrip
runs like the D triplexes do now !!!
I would love to do a LowV run on express on the #7 !!!!!
wow !!!!
They never got the special treatment the old BMT stuff got. While I greatly admire the Transit Museum for existing AT ALL, the IRT never really got a fair shake. Branford and Seashore did manage to do them justice though ... but not the TA.
In all seriousness, you'd LOVE the charm of the old bull and pinion cars - it's worth turning on the MICROPHONE for, and THEN some. :)
I can see by your post you have a lot of class bout' you !!
unfortunately missing is this with most of these pro NEW JUNKERS CLUNKERS
( non railfan window transverse cab equipped rolling stock fan clubs on this board ).. !!!
I beleive to my SOUL the old trainz were built simple stronger better !!! thankz !!!
sorry folks if i mistyped anything here i had to go back to my OLD MAC .....lol !!!
too hot 4 my sony viao laptoip pc !!!! wooooooooooo!!
You'd have loved those old growling, rattling High-V and Low-v if you wanted to feel like you were railroading! Without the sound of those tractionmotors it was never the same again. Lucky me..I was there thru childhood and youth, even got to run the R1-9 for 10 years and serve some time on the Q and AB.Ran one Low-V fantrip.It ws antiquated and things don't stand still as I accepted after many years, but I was glad to share it. BTW if ou had a "Gibbs" car [1904 model] you wouldn't have had a railfan window...the only negative thing for fans!They had a full width cab but only by design, not for OPTO.
Talk about growling and rattling -- there was one Uptown White Plains train running up the hill from the Pelham Parkway station - the track was wet from the rain and the wheels on one of the motor cars started to spin as we left the station and it continued to spin until the train was half way to the next station. -- Just something to throw into the discussion for fun.
I would guess the controller on that car had it taking excess power. On that same stretch once I rode a Low-V railfanning, in the last days, in which the voltage had dropped so low the lights were burning orange instead of the usual bright yellow. Probably had too many dead motors and the ones that were working were drawing way too much amperage...to move at best about 15 MPH!
Wow ... either the squirrels were tired that day or that was ONE unhappy train. I did a number of runs up the Manny B on some mighty pooped out Arnines and was worried about making over the hump because I had so many dead motors, but never had the lights dim on me. Heh. I'm impressed ...
man would i get off with a good museum ride with em now !!
Nothing like a death march over the bridge. Everybody out and push!!
yep i remember this too
>>>"They never got the special treatment the old BMT stuff got. While I greatly admire the Transit Museum for existing AT ALL, the IRT never really got a fair shake. Branford and Seashore did manage to do them justice though ... but not the TA."<<<
Kevin,
I do not want to burst your bubble, and appreciate the Plaudits for
Branford and Seashore. I do not have all the facts, but if it
were not for the TA, Branford may not have the Low V it does.
It was the fifth car of the preserved Low V set, used for the
75th Anniversary. Some where in the late eighties TA management
decided to clean house and dispose of excess vintage equipment.
The Low V set was on the hit list, and four of the cars went to
Railway Preservation Corporation and the fifth 5466 to Branford.
That's all I know, and it's not conjecture.
;-) Sparky
In a aroundabout way, that's what I meant behind it all, that the LoV's were NOT going to be retained by the museum proper and THANKS to Branford and Railway Preservation, they still exist at all. My reasoning behind what I said was that despite the history of the BMT, it was the "IRT" that was considered NYC's "first subway" and you'd think that there'd be a train of Gibbs cars doing the "nostalgia train" (at least every now and then) rather than "newer" cars.
Meant no disrespect other than commenting on how sad it is that for the upcoming 100th, there may or may not be an authentic IRT train making the rounds. At least, so far ...
Kevin,
Like I said, I do not have all the details, but happily there was
sufficient time allowed for salvation of these museum pieces from
the scrap line. Wasn't so with the R-11s except 8013 safe at
Court Street. They was gone, before any organization could ransome
any. I agree with you about the 100th, very little of the earliest
IRT equipment was salvaged by anyone.
The one's with the forsight to preserve, went after
the streetcars that were disappearing. The RT conservationist
started later, yet a uniqe portion of the Branford collection, receives
minor attention. We have the largest collection of wooden EL cars
in the world. But these are like dinosaurs to most afficionados of urban transit.
Oh, if I were a rich man, yada, yada, yada ...
;-) Sparky
Heh. Yeah, wish I had some coin too - and yes, between car G, 1227 and others, I was quite impressed to see that some still live on. Ah to be able to see one of the old Manhattan elevateds. Have to settle for Uncle Joe Frank's models for that. Sorry that I was born at a time when the trolleys were already just about completely gone. And the subway cars that I knew as regulars disappeared shortly thereafter.
Regardless, I'm extremely pleased and proud that SOMEBODY bothered.
would it not be nice if the 100th anneversary of the nyc subway
system included rides on the entire museum fleets
including ALL the surviving R-1s-R-9s..& the low-Vs ???????
Might have been a possibility had the economy not gone teats-up. I think we're going to have to settle for ANYTHING now ...
Kevin,
Thank you, you knew what direction I was leading in. Thank the Lord
for the conservatists who salvaged what we have today at the
Museums.
But my ultimate fantasy, if the denero was there, at Branford, the
BRT EL train consisting of 1227, 1349, 659, 197 & 1362.
I can dream, can't I.
;-) Sparky
AMEN to that! And yes, although many were before my time (born in 1951, to me the remaining LoV's were a treat as were the Q's, the standards, the WF IRT's and of course the Arnines which I was INCREDIBLY fortunate to get paid handle time at for almost a year on the latter [the folks I worked with thought I was *insane* to WANT to work them] ... the wife is a Manhattan elevated fanatic and is even more into the wooden el cars than I am) ...
If only I had the means, I can assure you I'd do MY bit ... and am glad to have met Dougie who loves them every bit as much as I do (just don't sharpen that damned S curve, he's dying for that to happen) Heh. But yeah, I knew exactly what you meant, sorry you've got a couple of years on me - I would have LOVED to have ridden them in their natural habitat.
What's actually a bit amusing though is everybody flipping over the redbirds. Just like I did when they started to replace the flivvers, as the bingbongs started to replace the Arnines ... been there, done that, miss the sweeties ...
Every generation is going to have its personal treasured cars.
After reading Kramers latest book, I'll have to correct my
recolections of the trips to Yonkers. The IRT portion that is,
it was HiVs, not LowVs from 168th to 242/Van Cortlandt Park.
Seems the last runs were on what is now the 1 line. At that time it was the B'way~Seventh Avenue Express from New Lots to 242/Van Cortlandt. Brooklyn to the Bronx.
;-) Sparky
Meant no disrespect other than commenting on how sad it is that for the upcoming 100th, there may or may not be
an authentic IRT train making the rounds. At least, so far ...
I'm sure the Lo-Vs will get some attention before then. I doubt the
surviving 2 Hi-V cars at Seashore and Branford could be made
mechanically suitable for carrying passengers in the subway.
560 volts through a soft trolley wire is one thing, but I wouldn't
want to test those motors and controls on a stiff 650V third rail.
there is a sizable amout of museum cars at coney ....saw em in the fall of 2000 !!!
Yeah, and that's the pity of it all. I know Seashore and Branford are certainly in no financial condition to do that and possibly risk them being damaged either by the eletricity or other means. And while I realize that the transit authority, being a government entity, would not be fiscally prudent in maintaining stock that doesn't generate revenue, it's really a shame that a few of the heritage cars couldn't have been put aside and maintained by the system itself. To ride the real deal though, we'd have to visit the museums on October 27 and 28th instead of City Hall station. Damned shame it is that it wasn't practical for the TA to keep a set though.
Right, Jeff.
I was at Seashore today and took a walk through our 3352. Even if were able to run (which would take some work), the interior is not in condition to accept passengers. Even we members have to "mind the gap(s)" on the floor!
But you can get shots like this...
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Arrrrrrrrgh! Cut to the quick.
All it takes is a good tank filled with helium and a pressure regulator. :)
Love it, David... just what they deserve...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, that looks more like a global warming problem to me :-)
Me too.
you stupid jackass.....!! these were some of THE MOST BEAUTIFUL stock
you ever had !! throwing it away polluting the ocean not even using
them in some kind of recycled metal program or something like that
ABSOLUTELY NO R-142 EVER LOOKED AS BEAUTIFUL AS THESE !
HELL EVEN IN THIER OLD AGE THEY HAD MORE CLASS THAN ANY R-142 !
NEVER AGAIN WILL YOU SEE THIS BEAUTIFUL SIGHT IN NEW YORK !!
TO HELL WITH THE R-142 !!!
i could not said it better my self.
Ok, I'm a jackass. You must know from experience. The junk going into the ocean is nothing like the pictures you produced in this thread. This is what I had to put up with:
They are red versions of Swiss Cheese, with armbreaking master controllers and lousy ventilation. You don't have a clue what its like to be stuffed into one of them for 8 hours because you are living your life focusing on a piece of glass that will eventually be shattered.
Ten more scrap cars came up tonight from Corona, with 9420 on the South. You know what that means pal? Progress! I like running R32s and R38s. Outdoors on the doorcheck at 70 degrees. Indoors, I'll take the R68s. I can hardly wait to see R160s coming into action on the A line so I can have more comfortable summers and winters for the rest of my time left until retirement. I will always cherish the times I had with my mother riding prewar cars at the window, and the opportunity to run cars now only seen in pictures but I see the future clearly:
Uh is that Jamaica center? I don't know of a orange/red tile station on the 7 line. Unless it was restored 7 yeaers ago.
8958 is an A division R33ML. So why would it be at Jamaica Center?
;-) Sparky
no, its bowling green on the 4/5(prettymuch the same cars, just different paint and windows)
okay!
Looks like Weeks got a really deep draft barge and stacking three carbodsky high. Three trainsets get 86 in one shot. Goodbye Redbirdsky...Hello Motherland. Brothers and Sisters of the Soviet Salute you. Remember the Kursk!!! CI Peter
You're Wacky. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Ugh! I remember those days with all the graffitti. It wasn't a pleasant experience. I remember when the TA painted the cars white and that did nothing to stop the graffitti. I kept thinking the red would do nothing too. I thought "Great! The other IRT lines got new silver cars and the 2 and 5 get the same old stinky cars!"
Well said. Get rid of those really ugly, red, swiss cheese garbage. Enough living in the past, people. The line had became an eyesore before the R62As arrived.
There's still plenty of railfan windows on the line for months to come. Folks, please stop whining and crying and b___hing about the railfan window on the #7. That piece of glass ain't worth s__t considering the condition some of those cars have that passengers like me had to bear. Good riddance.
you can dispose of em after november at least keep enough of em
for this late august / early setember ...!!
What a waste! 9321 - the only World's Fair R-33 to date to have been sent seaworthy. Seems nowadays there are more and more Silverbirds on the "7". What crap!
Amen to that!
Send the redbirds seaworthy right after the R-62's and R-142's. They are udder pieces of junk!
Why is everyone weeping over the loss of these things? Talking to train crews on the #6 at pelham bay, one quickly realizes that the Redbirds were hated because they were small, hot , noisy and rickety. One does begin to feel for the T\O or C\r who is stuck in a broom closet(not even) for 7+ hours every day. They deserve comfort just like each of us. The railfan window is dead... What can you honestly see in a dark subway tunnel anyway?
With the railfan front total view window ...
you can see plenty !!
I dont hear any r-32 -r-38 operators complaining!!
>>>maybe just only you<<<too bad you dont have
ENOUGH CLASS to enjoy what many of us
have enjoyed for years !!
At least philadelphia got it right on thier elevated lines
( i just know that teees you off to the hilt! )
......lol !!!
@ this is proff that the the hostile TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB on this message board does exhist !!
sick !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------->>>maybe just only you<<ENOUGH CLASS to enjoy what many of us
have enjoyed for years !! -----------------------
YOU ARE BEGINNING TO PISS ME OFF.........
Have you thought about going to the toilet?
lol !!!
>>>I dont hear any r-32 -r-38 operators complaining!!<<<
Uhhhh, could that be because the cabs in R32s and 38s are wider than the Redbirds? You know, I think that just might be why.
not much wider though...only about 5 inches i think(if these assumptions are made- cab=1/3rd of width, ind=10 ft, irt=>9 ft)
woooooooooooooooooooooo
Another intelligent comment from our resident WEST COAST, NON-DAILY RIDING pundant.
Peace,
ANDEE
..........again ...........ladies first !!!
oh by the way ia am a frequent rider of all rail and bus transit
systems coast to coast whenever and where ever i can do this ....
@...& about your ""west coast comment".........??...............!!
>>well it is HELL DRIVING A VEHICLE here man i wish the PE system
was still operational and not just at the orange empire rail museum!!
........right sweetie ??..............ladies first ..!!!
With the railfan front total view window ...
you can see plenty !!
I dont hear any r-32 -r-38 operators complaining!!
...............maybe just only you???........!
too bad you dont have
ENOUGH CLASS to enjoy what many of us
have enjoyed for years !!
At least philadelphia got it right on thier elevated lines
( i just know that teees you off to the hilt! )
......lol !!!
@ this is proff that the the hostile TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB on this message board does exhist !!
sick !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every Redbird married pair will be maintained and kept fully operational until the very last Bombardier R142 trainset is delivered and placed into RTO service reliably and under warranty. The worst summer disaster is entering a R142 with HVAC failure...the electromechanical nature of Redbird HVAC means easy and rapid repair on the floor. An R142 with almost any HVAC failure must go back to East 180th Street for a system exchange. CI Peter
so, get some more kawasaki R-142A trainsets, and forget about HVAC failure ever again..
Get some R-62s and forget about it.
142as are the same as 142s
Posted by OnTheJuice on Wed Jul 10 21:55:35 2002, in response to Re: Enough Already: Kill the damn Redbirds!, posted by Flyerlover on Wed Jul 10 21:36:07 2002.
Every Redbird married pair will be maintained and kept fully operational until the very last Bombardier R142 trainset is delivered and placed into RTO service reliably and under warranty.
Could they make the marker lights and roll sign lights operational too?? Please??
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS
You're seeing on the road failures....Carbodsky replaces lightbulbs during inspection...but nobody ever cleans the glass. CI Peter
the electromechanical nature of Redbird HVAC means easy and rapid repair on the floor. An R142 with almost any HVAC failure must go back to East 180th Street for a system exchange
Interesting observation, because this was supposed to be one of the innovative things about these cars... a "simple" HVAC unit exchange. The faulty unit can be worked on without the car being out of service. I know you work to make trains go, so I'm very interested in Why you feel this way.
--Mark
It is economically much more feasible to disconnect the entire HVAC unit when there is a compressor failure and swap out but 239th does NOT have the facilities and the #2 and #5 cars MUST be pulled out of service as a five car trainset and sent to East 180th. One MAJOR defect being worked on is when the HVAC 'goes to sleep.' When trainsets come into the yard for overnight storage, the HVAC automatically shuts down in about a half hour BUT the AC inverters do not and continue to run unloaded until they reach an ambient temperature of over 190 degrees and go into 'safe mode' so that when the T/O starts up in the morning...you have 'hot cars.' The 'temporary fix' is to have CIs go through the cars...disconnecting power...and resetting the system. Redbird technology generally presents only two problems due to age: blown compressors/DC motors and refrigerant leaks. CI Peter
What type of HVAC compressors are on the redbirds? Carrier/Carlyle 5F40s, perhaps. Also what is on the '142, '142A, and '143 ? (my guess is that all three use Carlyle 06D series Compressors. BTW, I work for Carlyle.
And while we're on the subject, what's the capacity of the air conditioning systems on the R-142, R-142A, and R-143 cars? The R-26 through R-62A cars have 12 tons (144,000 BTU) of heat removal capacity via one unit, while the R-32 through R-42 cars (60-footers) have 18 tons (216,000 BTU) via two units of 9 tons each and the R-44 through R-68A cars have roughly 20 tons (240,000; 2x10 tons). I haven't seen anything on the air conditioning capacity of equipment newer than the R-110s and am curious.
David
yea! the whole irt fleet with ONE TYPE OF CAR............
railfan window equipped R 62 s !! yea the whole fleet with
the same type of rail car throughout !! the 1 all the way to the 9 !!
yea! the whole irt fleet with ONE TYPE OF CAR............
railfan window equipped R 62 s !! yea the whole fleet with
the same type of rail car throughout !! the 1 all the way to the 9 !!
If subway cars were built for railfans and not operators or passengers, then that would be the case.
But you know from past conversations that I don't believe in building subway cars with railfan windows where a conductor needs to operate doors on either side of the train.
MATT-2AV
I think the rail-fan window is important. Don't tell me as a kid you never enjoyed playing motorman. And for the conductor, at least the controls are INSIDE of the train as compared to the early R12 and
R14 cars when they had to stand between the cars in all kinds of weather. Changing cabs for different sides of the train is not much of a hassle. Conductors are supposed to be there for the riding public, not locked up in the cab.
I never said I didn't like the railfan window.
I was born at Lenox Hill, but never had the opportunity to ride in the railfan window as a child. As an adult, of course I like the view from the railfan window; especially on the express run under Central Park West.
Yet it doesn't matter what I like -- only the good of the operators and riding public matter. In an era where conductors need to operate doors on either side of the train and our subway cars are married in sets, the railfan window is a design blunder.
Just because operators did something a hundred years ago or so doesn't mean that it is acceptable. Lots of things went on the past that progress has abolished. Every day on the commute home, if I had a red bird for the ride, I watched the operator of a Lexington Avenue local switch to the next car after Grand Central. Its bad enough having to sit in that brrom closet all day, but to then get up and switch back and forth between broom closets?
MATT-2AV
There was an R33 ML consist on the 6 today:
1 motor was 8930 and the other was 8825. 9140/1 9000/1 were 4 of the other cars on it. I forgot who was coupled to 8931.
Did anybody else see it?
Seems like the R142/R142A's are screwing up once again! Why would a Redbird return to the 6?
Way to go Redbirds! Keep on rolling!
#8825 6 Pelham Local
MY MAIN MAN !
Perhaps it was borrowed from the #5 to cover a shortage of available cars at the Pelham yard? The Kawasaki R142's on the #6 have been virtually problem free.
Stop...you're making too much sense!
Peace,
ANDEE
Crew for #5 has a bigger workload to MAKE TRAINS GO everyday as Redbirds continue to overcome the lack of R142s. At least they are fixable on site...hot cars are immediately HVAC repaired. Kawasaki has much better quality control and engineering response that Bombardier The most important thing is to SPEAK ENGLISH!! CI Peter
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEAH man GO,GO BIRDYS!!!!!!!
they are going to be sorry they waisted em as soon as they did !!!
here you had an old reliable FAITHFUL WIFE & you throw her away???
....................!!!
UMMM...I don't think that ANYONE here would want to be married to an ]R-33.
Peace,
ANDEE
you would say anything ..........!! .............lol !
Marry a SUBWAY CAR-- now that's a FOAMER!
We live for the One, We die for the One and We don't die stupidly. We are the TA Rangers and we'll fix those Redbirds piece by piece until the last car is replaced by New Tech. Spent Friday night repairing air conditioner leaks...no passenger should have to enter a 'hot car' or ever have to worry about 'uncoupling.' The end has to do more with body rot...Bondo, steel wool, duct tape, red paint and welded plates just doesn't do anymore. Redbirds only die by the hands of man. CI Peter
Right On! I think the TA should have kept them and do some "autobody" work on 'em. Come on I know you guys see them classic cars riding around our streets, that could go the same for the redbirds. A little bondo some fiberglass resin and some polyurthane paint plus some galvnzed steel and you got a new subway car to last for another 12 years! Provided the chassis is not shot!
The chassis isn't shot but the bondo stench will kill you. CI Peter
BTW: I lent the doorman across the street an engraved 'Made in the 200th Year of American Freedom' Ruger Mini 14 with two 30 round magazines loade with hot handloaded match/sniper .223 rounds. Wimpy anti gunner liberals were really surprised who was looking out for their snooty rich fat behinds...I kept my M1 Garand and an ammo box filled with .30 match/sniper rounds for the protection of the residents of my apartment building. No trouble here! CI Peter
Nice rifles. I wish the demoncrats would lay off our guns.
I serve when called and the Lord gifted me with this work after twenty one years of miserable service to weasels. OUR President stood up on the podium and announced, 'You can pry my gun out of my cold dead hands.' It was a flintlock. The 'OMEGA MAN' carried a M14.
My M1A/M14 Douglas air gauged heavy barreled ULTRAMATCH glass bedded heavy walnut stock makes his rifle look like a BB gun. Nothing like the satisfaction of filling an ammo can with fresh 168 grain HPBT reloads from an RCBS press. If only we could get Charleton Heston to fix the subways, 'In the hole SPEAK ENGLISH.' Now if only I could find the time for some range time! CI Peter
??????????????????.....................................!
John Garand was an immigrant farm boy from Canada gifted with mechanical genius. His M1 Garand Rifle was accepted as US standard in the 1930s and was responsible for 'turning the tides' of WW2. It is a very nice rifle and mine was built in 1938. Too bad that Bombardier does not have the genius of Garand. General Patton called Mr. Garands creation 'The Greatest Battle Implement ever created.'
Next class: marksmanship 101. CI Peter
i confess i should have read the posts several ones before the 1
i posted sorry ..........
No offense taken and missing posts understood. John Garand was the true American hero forgotten by history but his most valuable attribute was that HE COULD SPEAK ENGLISH!!!! Forgive me of my present rants...some incidents have happened because rapid train movements require rapid and comprehensible notification. Just do an internet search 'My M1 does the talking.' The poster jpg is second to the one created for me by John Blair that I use on my lock-out tags. CI Peter
........lol.!!.....correction......actually americans do not speak
british english at all ..........we speak american .....lol !!
you know southern drag new jersey slang ....miswestern slurl...
So you know who BIEs a static trainset with me working undercar...I give Grace and burst out 'Thankyouverrry Much.' Now it's 'SPEAK ENGLISH.' Don't matter if American/British/Indian English...point is car inspectors do have a dangerous work to do and comprehensible communication means safety of life. 'In the hole SPEAK ENGLISH you stupid turds.' Nothing like having the wax in your ears blown into your cranium like a BIE vent. Ci peter, deafer than ususal.
Most R-33's are already married. The only singles have one very undesireable trait: no air conditioning. (Despite that, they do have fans.)
also why did they not WAIT until all of the 'crap' was workded OUT of da' new r-142 SCRAP READY CLUNKERS first ???..............lol!!
Hurrah!!! Destroy all of them! Nothing but rumbling red scrap heaps if you ask me! lol!!
do with them what you want after i finish this late summer ....
The only thing that will kill the Redbirds is the evil hand of MAN.
LOL!!!
I don;t really hate them,.... I kinda got into this whole thing..
I don't know who you are and as such my words may have little meaning. But to live ninety years and see all that you have seen is a blessing, not so much to you, but to those fortunate enough to be around you. We wish you good health, and Godspeed in your recovery, hopefull that you will bless your loved ones and your friends by your continued presence for still many years to come. God bless you.
Eric Dale Smith
E_DOG
I heartily second that.
She is in my prayers.
Looks like the Mighty TWU has suffered another setback with several higher ups quiting on July 3rd.Seems there was a Seperate Motive for certain indidivduals.If the Queens bus strike is an example I hope everyone strarts saving money because if there is a strike we are all in trouble.
The h*ll with the TWU. They do nothing for thier workers. Take NJT for example, they (trainmen) have been without a contract for more than a year and their union isn't doing anything about it.
Dont forget a union is only as good as its members. attend the meetings and take an active role in it and it will get better.Ill bet that 75%of the members dont attend the meetings.And remember you are the union so when you say to &%$# with the twu your saying to %&$# to yourself!
The UTU and the BLE represent NJ Transits C/r's and LE's.
As for turnout, without giving away Union business it could be much better.
Those unions are the usual pair for "real" railroads and in other places (like up here) when there's a "Meetin'" most show up just to give the adminiswigs a hard time. This is a rought year for negotiating though, our rudderless ship of state has left the economy in a mess that we haven't seen since "poppy" ... I doubt there's going to be much for raises this go-round ...
When I worked for the TA 150 Motormen were reassigned as Railroad Clerks, Bus Operators and Towermen. That was in 1976. This temporary change was made, according to the TA, to alleviate shortages in the other titles. It was a bunch of crap because when I checked out the Motorman assignment lists it was loaded with overtime. The TA was trying to show a savings by playing a chess game and using the employees as pawns. The gentleman in a previous post was right about the union is only as good as its memebers. After a year of this temporary nonsense and after confronting a high ranking TWU representative and asking when we were going back to our Rapid Transit jobs and having him tell me "don't make a big deal out of it; at least your up in the fresh air and looking at all the pretty girls". Another thing that was shoved down our throats was that we were still getting our Motorman rate. I suggested that all the reassigned Motormen from the various bus depots to go to the Union in force and assert our discontent. When the day came only myself and 12 others showed up out of a possible 150 and no help from our brothers that were not affected. A long story short, we were almost arrested and it took another year before we got back to our proper Civil Service titles. If you don't show the union that you are discontent with their policies they'll shove the TA's policies down your throat. The higher-ups in the union will take the road of least resistance; they don't want to deal with the TA hierarchy. Besides, they make the same amount of money whether or not they fight for you.
OK, who quit?
This is the M.O. of New Directions. So far they've put forth more of an effort to "Free Mummia" than they have for their members. Applause to the Mayor for refusing to negotiate with the TWU in the Queens Bus Strike. I think ole Roger T. knows what's in store for him at contract time. One short term for roger..........
Be fair he is fairly new to ND.
ND is more the Anti-Willie James party then a unified philosophy.
You ought to look up the history of New Directions. It's not a movement born within the NYCT. They're not newcomers.
Here's a link to the New Directions Website.
http://www.newdirections.net/ND98/Diallo.html
Your union dues at work? I'd like to know how this will get you better medical benifits or 20/50. There seems to be a political agenda that has little to do with raising the working conditions of local 100 members.
Well that is a general Union tctic keep the membership politized and they have more of a voice.
That is not unique to the TWU 100, if you run for mayor of NYC you are expected to have a foreign policy. Also web space is cheap and in this case uncompensated.
As for the history, Roger is not a old time ND person he was not part of it his first ten years in Transit. As for my other statement the people that voted for ND run the gamut of reds trade unionist to craft unionists, they just wanted Willie out.
Do you think Willie was better?
As part of management I really do not care to comment on your question. However, as a former TWU member (yes, I came up through the ranks) I have very strong opinions about union leadership.
Then, as now, the TWU spent far too much time defending the losers and far too little time improving the lot of the 90+% of employees who come to work every day and do the right thing. The difference is that the current union is contentious where the former union would wheel & deal.
As a supervisor and a manager, (witht he old TWU) on the job I fought with shop chairmen & organizers. Off the job we could sit down and have a drink. We could work together to make improvements in facilities and work schedules. The current union leadership is contentious on and off the property. I was told by one organizer that he only deals with the barn chief and he does not shake hands with or have coffeee with managers. How do you work together with a philosophy like that?
Now let me ask you a question - which TWU do you think will get you more at the forth-coming contract negotiations?
THANKYOU TRAIN DUDE !!! WE need spokespersons like you and the MS who pushed me to learn and do. I never thought that when leaving my many years of employment I would survive this new work. My mother said 'You prayed for this work and you got it all.' Better to be overloaded with responsibility than to 'walk with hands in pockets stupid/dumb.' Chances are many losers might become my supervisors...for a while. CED MAKES TRAINS GO. CI Peter
"As a supervisor and a manager, (witht he old TWU) on the job I fought with shop chairmen & organizers. Off the job we could sit down and have a drink. We could work together to make improvements in facilities and work schedules. The current union leadership is contentious on and off the property. I was told by one organizer that he only deals with the barn chief and he does not shake hands with or have coffeee with managers. How do you work together with a philosophy like that? "
What that means is, back in your day, you were a professional and so was your collaborator/opposition. It may have been adversarial, like two attorneys squaring off in court, but you recognized that each was trying to fulfill a legitimate mission and, hopefuly, you could find common ground - but if not, "you gotta do what you gotta do." But you had respect for each other.
That's very admirable, in my opinion.
>That's very admirable, in my opinion.
The problem is that one of the hardest things to do is to keep each case separate from another. As a rep you are always open to the charge that you traded one member for another. Juice and Train Dude are on charges they want to give TD 30 days w/o pay you think it is excessive 10 is fair to you, you think 30 for juice might be too much too but you don't know him well .
Meanwhile you hang with me, your opponenent who HATES Juice (I want him out of my barn and the stubborn MFer won't leave). Over time the temptation will be for BOTH of us to trade TD for Juice.
Another problem is (I am not really sure where TD is in the management hierarchy) the Shop Steward is also an employee and under the supervision of his opponent, hardly the meeting of equals in court plus hear there is no real judge or jury just endless appeals (OK there is arbitration eventually).
As for the higher ups they were voted in and what they promised was a more adversarial relationship. Could you imagine
Berlin 1942- "Bring back that Chamberlain guy, I could work
with him."-Adolf Hitler
You don't work in a system alone. Even if TD is the nicest guy on earth and the fairest and the yada yada yada... There are some serious nutty managers out there that helped cause the change in attitude among many workers. So it is easy to blame the Union but maybe it was the old Unions fault or the fault of his fellow managers.
As a Jr. Accountant I had to set up papers for tax audits. My boss who was a fair accountant was a master of talking up the IRS guys. Start with the cup of coffee then try sports, car, college whatever it took to get the common ground. Our clients got over like fat rats all the time. The disciplinary hearing process is set up almost exactly the same with similiar steps, etc.
Some managers are really nuts and expect you to roll over if they are nice to you. On 2 of my prolems on the road I was expected to eat charges (which they would let me off with just a warning) so they would not have to show a late train. Somehow first train to get a dark signal is only worth 4 minutes to the running time, i was in a radio dead zone and ti took me longet to report it and get thru the area but instead of showing a late train they wanted me to say I passed a dark signal, which I did not. Of course agrguing with the guy at w4 took 2 more minutes. If this had gone thru channels and the Union rep suggested I eat it to help everyone out (I was still on probation and would likely get off with a warning and 2 weeks on the plat) and I later found out he trade my favor for a friend or he routinely had Sunday BBQ with management I would be furious and so would you in my shoes.
Wannabe, perhaps you would be interested in Labor relations 101 or Collective Bargaining 101. If the union and management cannot negotiate minor matters of contract interpretation or discipline, those matters usually wind up in arbitration. A tri-partite arbitration panel is made up of 1 member from management, one member from labor and an impartial arbitrator. Since the management rep always sides with management and the union rep always sides with the union. Therefore the decision is always left to the impartial arbitrator, hence the votes are always 2-1. That sounds fair, right? The problem is that the arbitrator is paid for jointly by the union and management (usually about $1,500.00 per day). In order to keep enjoying those fat pay days, he or she MUST satisy both sides. Therefore, the arbitrator must split the pie, 50-50. In other words, the union wins hald and management wins half.
So what happens if the union wants to save one of their people? What happens if you are also facing charges that day but you are not known by the union? If one must win and one must lose - who do you think loses? That's exactly what happens at every arbitration session. So what were you saying about BBQs and deals?
>Wannabe, perhaps you would be interested in Labor relations 101 or >Collective Bargaining 101
Actually, I have taken both. Please save it for Jersey Mike, Elias and BuildMoreLines they deserve it more than me.
My points were. One, if you don't like the new union leadership too bad you have no say, something must have happened for them to be voted in, I have my issues with them too, while you might not see it this way your not liking the new guard gives them a sort of credibility . Two, the proper relationship is not vitriolic or the ability the have a beer afterwards, it is a professional detachment. Three, while sometimes the ability to have a beer afterwards is beneficial it may give the perception of a conflict to the members and that would be totally unprofessional, no matter how honest that manager and rep are. Fourth, I worked in a field where there was no detachment and the two sides were chummy and one side almost always got raked over the coals because of it.
Additionally, SBF in agreeing with you also outlined what happened at the TWU, several officers chummy with management almost immediately going to the other side after the election. While they can maintain distance from you without being rude, rudeness is not unigue to labors side of the equation.
Now the best grievance or contract issue is the one that gets settled without officially going to step one. This is actually something I strongly believe in UNLESS the person has some sort of history of abusive behavior. I have been able to resolve problems without going Via official channels. On the otherhand it is possible to win at labor relations without going to the arbitrator, I am 2 for 2 and all at step one.
Lastly I am in RTO and things are just done differntly here. Please be open to the idea that what is good and works at your barn may not be right in other barns and departments, I am.
Well, you are right about one statement - I don't get a say in who represents you. As for the rest - I'm not impressed by you being 2 for two at step 1. I'd be more impressed if you were 0 for 0 at step 1. (By the way, I've never lost at tri-partite)
I will tell you of two instances, both where different employees were 'written up' for insubordination by two different managers. Both were removed from service. Both were offered the same deal - things were said in the heat of the moment. Take vacation time in lieu of the time out of service and apologize. Both considered the break but both were advised (instructed) by the TWU to fight the charges. However, when the cases got to tripartite arbitration (having been upheld at step II & step III) the union had no tangible defense - raising only extraneous issues. Bottom line - one has been fired and one served time in the street.
I could say more about a former RTO exec board member that the union threw to the wolves. However, as you said - it is your union.....
>I'd be more impressed if you were 0 for 0 at step 1
I am talking about grievance not discipline. As for discipline they sent me down there in error once but I did not count that one, I signed in and then got sent home when they looked closely at their papers.
>Take vacation time in lieu of the time out of service and apologize.
That could be a generous offer, unless they were already high up on that particular discipline track or the number of days was very high or they had plans that they had paid for.
Again from my outside experience with clients you would not believe the BS they tell you either in the hopes of convincing themselves or that somehow you will try harder for them if they play the violin. A stubborn or untruthful client is just as detrimental as a dumb rep. I would also add that some of the worst people to represent are gamblers, you tell them they only have a 10% chance and they go for it everytime and when they lose it is your fault even if they withheld information.
>I've never lost at tri-partite
Well very impressive with the new arbitrators.
I am painfully aware of G case. In fact that is only the tip of a deep iceberg.
When I run on an ACRE platform maybe someone in your dept might look carefully at our platform and copy some of it.
Who quit on July 3rd?
There really is no good answer. I do not agree with all ND does either, I believe in Craft Unionism not Trade Unionism which is not too popular down here (except CI). These people were elected so something had to ring true with the members.
As for rude people I tried to report a problem on a GO with stations not sealed off and no red lights, the Supt. did nothing and was mad at me because I said TSS not Supt., like I knew them from Adam, it's not my line. My point is there are many people Union, management and rank and file who act like they were raised in a barn. I know one person your dept has to deal with who I would want nothing to do with personally or professionally.
As for this contract, I think ND would be marginally better, this is not a good climate at all. It was last contract that they could have made a bit more of a difference.
You know Dude, I had always had a tendency to look at labor problems from the union side since I just retired as a teacher after 35 years in the profession, but your post made me see that there can really be another side to this problem. Unions can go on the offensive for their workers without being offenseive. It takes two to work out an agreement when there are two sides. It's as simple as that. Of course, I have to tell you my experience did color my views somewhat because we had the double whammy of management acting lordly and some of our so-called representatives selling us out and brownnosing so they could eventually get a better job as an administrator. But I have to hand it to you because you made your point clear and no one with a modicum of intelligence should dispute it. Have a great day.
Gee I guess, Me am bizarro.
'Juice was Loose Today' and got into an arguement with someone with more time on the job. I look at this guy straight into his eyes and say, "This union stinks, they have abandoned the Car Equipment Department to punish us and remember...WE ARE C.E.D. AND WE MAKE TRAINS GO EVERYDAY. Without us, RTO will eventually have no trainsets to run and CTAs will have nothing to clean and Revenue will have no need to sell metroCards or tokens.' So he looks at me and pronounces the union was worse five years ago. I know it's my age and experience but 'The hammer of Odin' will smack their Mercedes Benz flatter than a pancake...these jerks do not represent US working TA employees and the guy arguing with me admitted he'd rather not be in a union shop. The 180th Street shop steward berated me this morning because I complained of not having the proper gauges for inspection...gauges are available Off Hours overtime to check the new trainsets...having the proper tools available means NO OVERTIME or doing a reverse double shift...11PM to 3PM...stinks. TA work is EXCELLENT work. Just wait till the 239th union rep gets back to work and I'll give him an earfull. CI Peter
'New Directions is a B-25 crashing into Dresden from 20K feet after the firestorm.' Maybe it's my age, maybe it's my experience or it's just maybe my faith waining of the 'good works of others.' What I see is that the management of TWU 100 has purposley isolated the Car Equipment Department to force an issue, to 'make a point.' Every time the 'bigshots' schedule to meet us at 239th, they disappear, leaving some poor schlub to rally us 'for their cause' but always show up in big Mercedes Benz sedans looking for money. My father never gave a rats ass about me as I grew up, I struggled along and alone but when he died, there were a few dollars available for a decent used car that I take care of and drive to work proudly every day. In my hand I hold 'Odins Hammer,' a ten pound sledge to be used in smacking Mercedes Benz sedans THINNER than a pancake. The Car Equipment Department may only represent five percent of the TA force BUT WITHOUT US THERE ARE NO TRAINS. Period!!!! We are the new force in the TA, we are not young men but experienced professionals that the TA hired to MAKE TRAINS GO and WE are very grateful to be hired after September 11th. Roger Toussaint is making a very poor decision in 'placing us before a rock and a hard place.' In my crew there isn't a man that doesn't 'Be there, do the work and Give Grace.' TA work is excellent work and we know it by doing our best. CI Peter
How about "Free Metrocards for Mummia"? I'm sure the union can swing that...
Actually the Free Mumia movement has recently had a small victory, a judge tossed out his death sentence. Now to liberate the brother!
He deserves only a new trial, not outright release.
-Hank
He may deserve eternal release.
He may deserve eternal release.
Actually, as I understand the court ruling, the issues were with the sentencing and not with the conviction. I'm not clear as to the legal (liberalese) issues that lead to the overturning of the death sentence but as I understand it, the conviction stands. Personally, I don't give a rats ass whether this scum of the earth lives the rest of his life in some prison or under it. My real objection was that the TWU spent rank & file money to pay for busses so the radical element of the TWU could attend a rally in Philadelphia.
Liberate Brother Mumia!!~!~! The Big Bug is truly the adjudicator of justice...then come up to 239th for Halal goats and chickens. Better frying than R142 pigeons.
EWWWWWwwwww THE JUICE IS ON!!!!!!
In what city, other than the one you live in, do you enjoy railfanning most? My personal favorite is Toronto, because it has so many different modes all together. There is a heavy subway, light rail rapid transit in Scarborough, and regular and articulated streetcars downtown. However, I think I'm going to have fun when visit Boston and San Francisco for the same reasons: lots of modes all in one system.
Mark
The SF Bay Area (for all those cities San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose).
Most definitely San Francisco. It has a great mix of different types of transportation. Of course everyone thinks of the cable cars, which are great, and very unique. The Market street trolly line is also very cool, as it has a variety of PCC's painted in other cities paint schemes. (I think some of New Jerseys rescently went there also.) There is also an extensive light rail system throughout the area, both above and underground.
I'm not that much of a bus fan, but for those who are, they run an extensive electric bus system also. BART is nearby, as well as Amtrak, and freight railroading.
And when you get tired of the rails, the scenery is spectacular. The whole setting is very beautifu. And of course the Golden Gate Bridge is probably one of the most beautiful bridges (at least a close second to the Brooklyn Bridge).
New Orleans is also a great city for railfanning. The St Charles line is very unique and great cars, on a great line. The riverfront line is also a nice run. They are rebuilding the Canal Street line, and when that is finished, will also be a nice addition (or "readdition"). Freight runs quite often along the river, right next to the riverfront trolly line. Amtrak is also nearby, even if the terminal is pretty pathetic. It's also a fun city.
NJT PCC #14 has been out there for a while and San Francisco was so pleased with it that they are going to purchase it and 14 others from NJT.
T.Beverett
For me, it's a toss-up between Chicago and Toronto.
I think that railfans built all those multi-deck parking garages in the Loop because there seems to be one a every great photography location!
--Mark
Now I'm kicking myself for not thinking to climb into those garages to take pictures of the Chicago L when I was there last August!
Mark
Geez ... you missed the one by Tower 18? Shame SHAME!!!
Next time I'm there, I bring a stadium chair and some drinks and watch the never-ending train parade!!
--Mark
While Toronto is #1 in my book, let's not forget Philadelphia. They have heavy rail, light rail, trolley buses, and regular buses. Plus, there's Patco, and a decent size commuter rail system as well.
I live in Philadelphia, and couldn't vote for it according to the rules I set forth in my original post, but I agree, Philadelphia is a great place to be a railfan!
Mark
I did in my last post. I forgot Philly, Chicago, and Atlanta. A senior moment I guess---I seem to get my share of them.
I should have mentioned Atlanta in my post, too. I love MARTA because it's clean and pretty, but mostly because it's easy to go railfanning during layovers at Hartsfield airport.
Mark
New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago are all contenders, but I just returned from a long weekend in San Francisco. It was great! The best part was riding the Milan streetcars on the F Market line. It was interesting to watch a PCC followed by a Milan car, which I boarded at Castro Street. Any number of people, both tourists and locals, let the PCC pass by in favor of the 80-year-old Milan car.
Well, since I can't nominate Chicago because I live here (I'll nominate it once I arrive in Philly), I'd have to say New York just because it's home to the grandaddy of all subway systems in the US. I could spend a lifetime exploring the NYC subway system and still not see everything. What fascinates me most about the NYC subway is all its little quirks and oddities, like Wilson Avenue on the (L), South Ferry, Smith/9th, and Broadway Junction. The scale and complexity of the system is incomprehensible.
However, I'd also have to nominate Boston and Philadelphia. What they lack in quantity, they make up for in diversity. Each city has a healthy stew of rapid transit, light rail, and commuter rail. (Others on this thread have nominated San Francisco, but I haven't been out there yet.)
Of course, London also ranks very high in my book. The Jubilee Line extension alone is worth the price of admission, and the massive railway terminals like Victoria and Liverpool are spectacular.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As it looks like we're now beyond the bounds of North America, I'd definitely like to explore Tokyo's transit system. It looks as complex as New York's, maybe more so. Moscow's ornate subway system looks worth seeing too.
I was sure you would pick Ronkonkoma, Peter! :-)
Good Lord, I forgot Tokyo, too. Quick, someone send for the guys in the white coats.
Don't let Bob get wind of this.:-)
Of course, London also ranks very high in my book. The Jubilee Line extension alone is worth the price of admission, and the massive railway terminals like Victoria and Liverpool are spectacular.
Wow! You like the bad bits!!! I like the Hammersmith & City Line between Hammersmith and Paddington (nearest thing London has to an El - nice view of the BBC as you go high above White City - YAY!) and of course the Metropolitan Line where it runs on what should be the GCR. The end of the Central Line as you head towards Ruislip is quite fun, and if you time it right you can get a train to Birmingham (nice enough big city with appalling buses and an useless pseudo-metro, but good local rail) from West Ruislip (of course if you do that you miss out on the best London Terminal - Marylebone).
Whilst I was in London, I absolutely LOVED the Bakerloo line, more curves than a chorus line, and the noisiest wheels in the entire fleet, those 1972 MkII Tube Stock. Stand at the south end of Paddington and listen to them sing! Noisiest of the lot was 3255-4255-4355-3355-3446-4546-3546; and 3548-4548-3448-3338-4338-4238-3238 also was especially rowdy. You can hear them singing all the way up the airshaft at the corner of London and Praed Streets.
I also liked the Piccadilly Line with the 1973 stock, and also the Northern Line (the part that went via Bank), I liked the color scheme in the 1995 stock.
I did NOT like the 1992 Tube Stock on the Central Line!!!
wayne
Can someone please tell me what these new fangled trains are eliminating the railfan window. I don 't know about the rest of you but whenever I come to New York that's where I head. Here's the problem, though. Just about everytime I do someone else is there ahead of me. I have to wait my turn. That means there are a hell of a lot more railfan window buffs that just the guys here on Subtalk. I remember leaving the Coney Island Yards and heading back to my hotel in Manhattan on Memorial Day weekend and having been pissed off all the way after a great day riding the Triplexes because the F train's railfan windown was cardboarded. That's crap and it takes a lot of the joy out of it for all railfans. I wonder if the TA could do something about this.
It is indeed unfortunate that tranverse cabs are eliminating the railfan window, but I do applaud the TA in at least trying to accomodate people who like to look out the front. Some other cities (London and Singapore come to mind) just have walls. No forward view at all.
Transverse cabs are the wave of the future and their is nothing that can be done to stop it. We, as railfans, just have to accept it and adapt. Who knows, somewhere down the line future generation of railfans may be bitching about the elimination of the transverse cab. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess you can't stop progress Andee, if that is what it is. I don't know if you remember the Triplexes but that car not only had a railfan window but a railfan seat window just to the left of it. Then two guys should share in the fun. Well if that;s the way it is heading no use to continue bitching about it, but it sure spoils some of the pleasure of railfanning somewhat.
I know and love the triplexes VERY well and will be riding on one this Sunday.
Peace,
ANDEE
I had a blast on the Triplex on May 27. Two guys gave up their part of the railfan window because they knew what a fanatic I was about the Sea Beach. That was really great of them to do that, and when I got that position Mark Feinman and I had a blast seeing the Triplex go down the Sea Beach express tracks. We really wooshed through those mini tunnels I love so much, and the only fly in the ointment was that the front car had the Brighton's former #1 on it instead of the former Sea Beach BMT#4. But that was only a minor irritation. Hope you have fun and maybe think of that crazy guy in California who would love to trade places with you this weekend.
The week of July 1st, N trains (ooops, sorry, Sea Beach trains) were running on the Sea Beach middle track from 59th St to Kings Highway from 10am - 3pm. I thought of you as I videotaped the run from Pacific St to Kings Highway that week. Unlike the triplex, the front car didn't sideswipe the tunnel wall south of New Utrecht Ave :)
--Mark
Now THAT will be a worthy addition to anyone's video collection!
Ditto for many other places, too, Andee. Montreal I believe is the same, along with Paris and Hong Kong. (Dammit, those are MY THREE FAVORITES!)
-J!
It is indeed unfortunate that tranverse cabs are eliminating the railfan window, but I do applaud the TA in at least trying to accomodate people who like to look out the front. Some other cities (London and Singapore come to mind) just have walls. No forward view at all.
Transverse cabs are the wave of the future and their is nothing that can be done to stop it. We, as railfans, just have to accept it and adapt. Who knows, somewhere down the line future generation of railfans may be bitching about the elimination of the transverse cab. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW-as far as windows being covered by T/Os, they are not supposed to do it and can get in trouble if they are caught by their bosses.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does that apply on R-62A's, which seem to have some sort of hook above the window that's often used to hang bags and coats?
Can someone please tell me why these new fangled trains are eliminating the railfan window. I don 't know about the rest of you but whenever I come to New York that's where I head. Here's the problem, though. Just about everytime I do someone else is there ahead of me. I have to wait my turn. That means there are a hell of a lot more railfan window buffs that just the guys here on Subtalk. I remember leaving the Coney Island Yards and heading back to my hotel in Manhattan on Memorial Day weekend and having been pissed off all the way after a great day riding the Triplexes because the F train's railfan windown was cardboarded. That's crap and it takes a lot of the joy out of it for all railfans. I wonder if the TA could do something about this.
I absolutely LOVED the Bakerloo line, more curves than a chorus line, and the noisiest wheels in the entire fleet
Not to mention doors that break down and only close if someone gives them a shove.
I often wonder why the Bakerloo Line was never extended the short distance from Elephant & Castle to Bricklayer's Arms to give some relief to the bit where a load of lines converge to go into London Bridge (plus of course a transfer to the ELL at New X Gate).
"This is a Bakerloo Line train to Norwood Junction. The next stop is Kenton." - Imagine that!
And on the same stream...
"The next station is Yau Tong, doors will open on the left. Please change to platform two for the Kwun Tong Line towards Yau Ma Tei."
...but then again, I don't think I have to wait long for THAT one!
It does seem strange that the Bakerloo has never been extended south of its original southern terminus at Elephant & Castle. However, the Elephant was a major centre of tram (streetcar) services, and it is still a major transfer point to buses. [There is also a commuter rail station there, though the potential transfer facility doesn't actually seem to be used much.] More importantly, though, tube expansion in south London was a political hot potato in the 1920s. The newly-formed Southern Railway had a large network throughout London south of the Thames, and was busy rapidly electrifying it. The underground was still a private enterprise then, and the two companies were in competition. The Southern used all its political clout to prevent the underground extending further into its bailiwick.
I must say Elephant & Castle is one of my favourite places in London - hell on Earth for motorists, but really quite a nice place with good shops, plus Thameslink and of course the Bakerloo Line.
It is of course a pity the trams have gone - E&C would've been so much more useful as a transfer point. I'm not really into buses, as they tend to be slow. I only bother with them in London when it's raining.
A Bakerloo Line extension which would really work would be the Bricklayers Arms - New X Gate alignment, with some trains terminating at Crystal Palace, others at Norwood Junction or even Epsom or Epsom Downs via West Croydon and Sutton (Surrey). It would be tempting to run some to Gatwick via East Croydon. It would be probably the most significant expansion of capacity South London could have.
The 1992 Central stock is my favorite. I like the Northern stock slightly better than the almost indentical Jubliee stock.
We're not supposed to nominate our home city, but I live 50 miles from London, at the end of one of the commuter rail lines, so maybe I can cheat. (And my regular commute goes the other way, on a main line train -- away from London to my work 110 miles from London.)
London has improved as a railfanning city in recent years with the addition of new facilities (like the Docklands LR and the Croydon Tramlink). I agree with my compatriot James that the Hammersmith & City is the tops. Its terminus at Hammersmith (separate from the main tube station there) is a nice dinky little Victorian building with three tracks, kept quite smartly maintained. The next bit is like an el, as James says (though actually on brick viaducts rather than a steel structure), and goes over the top of Shepherds Bush Market, with fun views down on to the stalls and customers below. And then when you approach central London, you ride over the whole of the original 1863 Metropolitan Railway from Paddington to Farringdon -- the world's oldest underground railway.
However, you can also (surprisingly) ride over historic ROW on very new systems. Part of the Croydon Tramlink light rail system between Wimbledon and Croydon runs over the trackbed of the Surrey Iron Railway, which was possibly the first railway in the world -- horsedrawn, dating from about 1800. And the first part of the Docklands Light Railway out of Tower Gateway terminus runs over the viaducts of the London and Blackwall Railway, which was the first local railway in London (and east of Limehouse station these viaducts had been disused for years before the DLR was run across them).
The Jubilee Line extension of 1999 (Green Park to Stratford) has had its teething troubles, but it's still interesting -- the architecture of some of the stations is very different from tradition, and the new Westminster station is a positively Kafkaesque place, in a kind of brutalist post-nuclear-war architecture!
In fact much of the railfan interest in London lies out to the east. James mentions the western end of the Central Line, but its eastern extremity is made up of former branch lines of the old Great Eastern Railway, (not all the stations have been modernised), with the addition of a 1940s tube between Leyton and Newbury Park where the stations are designed like (and given their date, maybe under the influence of) the Moscow system. And (as I found out when I rode the Central Line for the first time in a long while a few days ago) its old part in the central area is very twisty -- between Liverpool Street, Bank and St Paul's stations, the tunnels are made up of almost continuous reverse curves, as the line (although a deep tube) was made to follow the medieval street pattern up above to avoid legal problems of going under buildings.
Some of the national rail (commuter rail) lines are interesting too -- like the Tattenham Corner branch which terminates right on the horseracing track at Epsom -- and while we have nothing as magnificent as Grand Central, the crowds and bustle in rush hours at the main termini are fun to watch (if you haven't got to put up with them every day).
Incidentally today (more of less) is the 50th anniversary of the end of the London trams (streetcars) in 1952. My dad took me to ride on the last route but I can't actually remember it, unfortunately. It's great that trams returned in 2000, even if down in the southern suburbs in Croydon. They are painted the traditional red, though sadly they are not double-deckers (which would not have fit under the bridges and through the tunnels of the ex-railway ROW sections).
Fytton.
My non-cheating response has to be San Francisco -- Muni, BART, trolley buses, the CalTrain, and of course the cable cars (hopelessly touristy though they are) provide such great variety in such a small space. Non-rail, there are also ferries, and even the buses are fun to ride as they grind up the steep hills.
Fytton.
In fact much of the railfan interest in London lies out to the east. James mentions the western end of the Central Line, but its eastern extremity is made up of former branch lines of the old Great Eastern Railway
Rather amazingly, I've never been East of Bank on the Central Line. :( I never made it to Ongar! From the photos I've seen of that bit, it looks very like some of the Western extremities of the Metropolitan Line.
Some of the national rail (commuter rail) lines are interesting too
I think everyone knows I'd nominate all the lines out of Marylebone, but I am extremely biased when it comes to the GCR :D
On other lines, I like the LTS for its rather small-scale feel, and both rides out to Windsor are quite nice (although I prefer the line via West Drayton to that via Staines). Marlow is a good ride, including the absurd reverse move at Bourne End!
and while we have nothing as magnificent as Grand Central
Marylebone of course should have been, if it had ever been finished. Instead it is a weird third of a station with a full width concourse. In terms of actual magnificence, Victoria is pretty good (both stations), although I'd say that St Pancras' is probably the most magnificent there is (there you go, Fytton - your terminal!). The old Euston might have been worth a look (to be fair, the current one deserves a look too: how NOT to build a station).
However, you can also (surprisingly) ride over historic ROW on very new systems.
The biggest oddity is the viaduct into the old Island Gardens station. Opened - abandoned - reactivated by DLR - abandoned.
It's great that trams returned in 2000, even if down in the southern suburbs in Croydon.
I agree - they should of course be on Kingsway (preferably in the Tunnel). The Newt has of course made a decent attempt with his CRT plan, but, if I understand correctly, this won't use the tunnel!
"and while we have nothing as magnificent as Grand Central
Marylebone of course should have been, if it had ever been finished. Instead it is a weird third of a station with a full width concourse. In terms of actual magnificence, Victoria is pretty good (both stations), although I'd say that St Pancras is probably the most magnificent there is (there you go, Fytton - your terminal!)."
I have spent most of my life living in St Pancras-land (born in Radlett and lived there till I was six, later twenty-five years in Nottingham, then Loughborough, now Bedford), so of course I should have mentioned St Pancras. Both the wonderful (though disused) Victorian Gothic hotel on the front and the splendid trainshed will, thank goodness, be preserved. But in a few years' time it will be even more spectacular, as it is undergoing a massive expansion to become the London terminal of the (much overdue) high-speed line from the Channel Tunnel. The platforms are being extended to take the long EuroStar trains, and then it is being extended sideways (beyond the end of the trainshed) to provide extra, shorter platforms for Midland Mainline.
In "Under the Sidewalks of New York", Brian Cudahy says that 6th Ave/33rd Street in New York is the biggest concentration of electric railways on Earth. I beg to differ. I think Kings Cross/St Pancras in London is. Three deep tube lines (Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria), the subsurface tracks taking the Metropolitan, Circle and Hammersmith & City line trains, more subsurface tracks (the old "Metropolitan Widened Lines") taking the Thameslink trains and, from Kings Cross main line station, electric expresses to the north of England and Scotland and electric commuter trains. St Pancras station is all diesel at the moment, but after the Channel Tunnel line is finished it will have electric EuroStar trains from Paris and Brussels, as well as high-speed electric commuter trains from Kent.
Fytton.
I have spent most of my life living in St Pancras-land (born in Radlett and lived there till I was six, later twenty-five years in Nottingham, then Loughborough, now Bedford)
My experience is much more diverse. I was born in Cardiff, lived in Birmingham for most of my life, and in September shall be off to Leicester. Therefore, I've already had experience of Pad, Euston and Marylebone, and will shortly be in St-Pancras-land! Still doesn't stop me wanting the Leicester Central - Aylesbury section restored!
Brian Cudahy says that 6th Ave/33rd Street in New York is the biggest concentration of electric railways on Earth. I beg to differ. I think Kings Cross/St Pancras in London is.
Pity all the Goods Yards have just about gone. The thing which strikes me about King's X - St Pancras is how King's X anywhere else would be a fine, if slightly dull, station. Being put right next to St Pancras, however, makes it look like the poor relation.
Dammit... And when I was in London last year, I made a point to visit most of the major railway terminals. I saw Victoria, Paddington, Waterloo, Liverpool, and Kings Cross. Guess which one I didn't make it to? Yep, St. Pancras. And the shameful part about it was that I visited Kings Cross not once, but twice! Right next door!! Guess I'll have to make another trip back there someday.
At least I got a good close-up view of an ex-Eurostar train at Kings Cross, though. It was a lot smaller than I was expecting, but still pretty sharp-looking.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dammit... And when I was in London last year, I made a point to visit most of the major railway terminals. I saw Victoria, Paddington, Waterloo, Liverpool, and Kings Cross. Guess which one I didn't make it to? Yep, St. Pancras. And the shameful part about it was that I visited Kings Cross not once, but twice! Right next door!! Guess I'll have to make another trip back there someday.
Next time it looks like you'll need to look at St Pancras, Marylebone, Charing X and Fenchurch St. I'd give Euston (top appalling 1960's dump of a station) and London Bridge a miss. Liverpool St is okay. Broad St was a lovely if dilapidated station - sadly, it's been demolished to put a crappy little shopping centre on the site. If you look at:
http://members.tripod.co.uk/McCormick/brd-a70c2.JPG
the station on the left is Broad St.
At least I got a good close-up view of an ex-Eurostar train at Kings Cross, though. It was a lot smaller than I was expecting, but still pretty sharp-looking.
Yep, smaller than you think they'd be, and they still have been only about 10% full every time I've used the damn things. Plus they're VERY slow. I wish someone would create something useful like a Tilbury - Ostend Hovercraft (getting the port North of the Thames), and Express Trains to Tilbury:
- Sheffield - Leicester (via Tottenham & Hampstead and Tottenham & Forest Gate Lines)
- Birmingham - Coventry - Rugby , Liverpool - Stafford - Rugby, Manchester - Stafford - Rugby (via North London Line and Stratford (London))
- Bristol - Bath - Swindon - Reading, Swansea - Cardiff - Swindon Reading, Gloucester - Cheltenham - Swindon - Reading, Hereford - Worcester - Oxford - Reading (via Acton Wells Junction, Willesden Junction, the North London Line and Stratford (London))
The Express Trains already exist in Belgium, so no new trains would be needed over there.
"Broad St was a lovely if dilapidated station - sadly, it's been demolished to put a crappy little shopping centre on the site. If you look at:
http://members.tripod.co.uk/McCormick/brd-a70c2.JPG
the station on the left is Broad St."
That's right, that is Broad Street in the picture, but what is now on the site is not "a crappy little shopping centre", it is a large office development (Broadgate).
"ex-Eurostar train at Kings Cross, though. It was a lot smaller than I was expecting, but still pretty sharp-looking.
Yep, smaller than you think they'd be, and they still have been only about 10% full every time I've used the damn things. Plus they're VERY slow."
I think David was referring to the ex-Eurostar trains that GNER has bought (leased? borrowed?) and uses on the London-Edinburgh route, where they certainly aren't slow. I think James is talking about the actual Eurostar London-Paris and London-Brussels trains. It is common knowledge that the Eurostars on the Channel Tunnel route get very slow in England, because they have to use the ordinary old lines through Kent. However, the new hig-speed line frm the Tunnel to London is progressing well, although belatedly, and will provide a high-speed route all the way from Paris to London in a couple of years time.
I've only used the Eurostar once, to Brussels, and it certainly wasn't fast between Lille and Brussels where, as in England, it has to use the old lines. [It's the Tunnel-Paris stretch which is a new HGV line and is very quick.] Nor was it only 10% full, it was well filled. However, the Eurostar may have been hit by the growth of the low-cost airlines in Europe recently -- certainly my favoured method, even though I am a railfan.
Fytton.
It is common knowledge that the Eurostars on the Channel Tunnel route get very slow in England
Plus there seems to be something wrong with the ride once you get into France - the shock absorbers seem way too weak for the line - so it feels not dissimilar to riding the WCML.
However, the Eurostar may have been hit by the growth of the low-cost airlines in Europe recently -- certainly my favoured method, even though I am a railfan.
I thought Eurostar was a great idea until riding it. Now I think the Dover - Ostend Ferry is a hell of a lot better. My favourite method used to get out of the UK is of course hovercraft, though these seem to have become very scarce - that is if any run at all any more.
Give me a Tilbury - Ostend Hovercraft!
I spent some time riding London Transport in Oct. 98. My freind in Northolt, with whom I stayed..introduced me to the Central Line which I liked well enough, until I discovered the District Line which I grew to favor riding it to Ealing Broadway then back to Northolt.Was that part of the original steam powered system? There are places on the underground portion where you could see daylight. But now that you mentioned Hammersmith and Ciy I wish I had ridden it.
".....until I discovered the District Line which I grew to favor riding it to Ealing Broadway then back to Northolt. Was that part of the original steam powered system?"
Yes, the District Line to Ealing Broadway was steam operated before the electrification of the Metropolitan District Railway Co. in the early 1900s (which took place after it was bought by Americans!).
Thank you! You have confirmed what I suspected. So the Yanks were buying railways over there then!Wonder how many Americans know he White Star Line was American owned when the Titanic sunk?
Was the American who ran tube lines in London Charles Yerkes, the same one who owned Chicago's Northwest Rapid Transit (Ravenswood and Howard Street EL)?
Charles Tyson Yerkes (the same one!!) built the Picadilly, Hammersmith and Bakerloo lines
Samuel Insull who later united the L lines, streetcars, and Interurbans [and I think the C&IM RR and power companies] into a big empire of his own in Chicago, ironically enough was British born.Further irony was his death by heart attack in a Paris Metro station. IIRC read this in Middleton's "North Shore Line.
The new Stations of the Jubilee extension would me enough to make anyone a fan, check this pict out
http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/london/jubilee/jub-northgreen01.jpg
Boston. I forgot that one, too. I'm beginning to think I;m getting a little senile along the way.
If you mention London, then someone had to say Paris. The system in Paris is stunning! Ligne 14 especially, the new Meteor. Ligne 1 has these sweet new trains...and the system is very much like Montreal's, heck, they're almost related!
My list would be:
- Paris (Ligne 1 rolling stock the biggest plus there)
- Montreal (Berri-UQAM to Longueil esp.)
- Hong Kong (Can't wait for the Tseung Kwan O Line there!)
I haven't ridden the Paris Metro in about 14 years, but for those of you who, like me, don't get to Europe very often, you can see a lot of the Paris Metro in the French film Amelie. The white-and-aqua trains look great, and the movie had lots of footage of them in elevated sections. In addition, there was a lot of footage of Paris commuter trains and one great shot of a TGV parked in the station.
Mark
London, no doubt. It's a blend of old and new, endless passageways, FAST and huge.
Runner up is San Francisco, that city has nearly every mode of rail transport that exists.
New York is probably my favorite, at least in the USA. Great passenger, freight, subway, light rail -- who could want for more? I also have a great fondness for Philadelphia for the same reasons.
I have to admit, however, that my all-time favorite railfanning area is the Glasgow-Edinburgh, Scotland region in Britain. The scenery is great, the passenger rolling stock is varied, and most important of all, it has the Forth Rail Bridge -- the largest RR bridge in the world. A simply magnificent structure that could take anyone's breath away. I could also stand in Glasgow Central station for hours and never get bored. Couple that with rail lines past Loch Lomand, through the Scottish West Coast, and the nearby Highlands, and it makes for an incredible railfanning experience.
and most important of all, it has the Forth Rail Bridge -- the largest RR bridge in the world.
The thing which strikes me more when riding up that way is the Tay Bridge - or rather the eerie presence of the piers of the original Tay Bridge alongside - it gives me the creeps! I've therefore ridden via Stirling every time bar one I've been to Inverness (the time I rode via Dundee was a Sunday - need I say more?).
That must be eerie. I've never taken a train across the Tay into Dundee, and did not realize the remnants of the original bridge were still visible. My understanding is that the Tay Bridge disaster was the direct impetus for enormous presence of the Forth Bridge. I remember reading somewhere that its immense design and construction was done specifically to avoid the potential of another similar disaster. The winds along the Firth of Forth can be brutal at times. I know from experience.
When I lived in Edinburgh about 10 years ago, I would regularly cross over the Forth Bridge on my way to Dunfermline or Perth. Actually, I lived within just a couple of miles of the bridge, on a hill off the Queensferry Road near Barnton and Cramond. From my front garden I could see the tops of the cantilever towers.
Another favorite line in the UK is the Settle-Carlisle Branch in Yorkshire. I stumbled upon that magnificent bridge off the B6255, the Ribblehead Viaduct, one morning purely by accident when traveling from Heysham to Hawes. That was a splendid surprise!
and did not realize the remnants of the original bridge were still visible.
There are some piers left for it to the East (IIRC) of the current bridge. I haven't ridden it for two years - that was a Sunday morning when I was trying to get from Edinburgh to Inverness and had to change at Aberdeen. It took a VERY long time!
You're right about the Forth Bridge being deliberately built not to be like the Tay Bridge for obvious reasons.
Another favorite line in the UK is the Settle-Carlisle Branch
Which, rather unfortunately, is one of two routes to Scotland I haven't ever used. I've done Birmingham NS - Derby - Wakefield W - Newcastle - Edinburgh, ditto via Doncaster instead of Wakefield, Birmingham NS - Stoke - Man Pic - Lancaster - Carlisle - Glasgow C, and Birmingham NS - Crewe - Warrington - Lancaster - Carlisle - Glasgow C. The other route I've never used is a West Coast train to Edinburgh.
One of my personal favourite lines is the Vale of Glamorgan Line from Bridgend to Cardiff via Barry - unfortunately AFAIK this is only at present used for diversions.
The Clockwork Orange -- Glasgow's tiny little subway system (which the local people do actually call "The Subway") -- is entertaining, and Glasgow also has two underground commuter rail lines (the one through Queen Street Low Level and the one through Central Low Level) at the heart of its extensive electric suburban rail network. Edinburgh, sadly, has very little local rail service left. Its bus service is particulary efficient and good value, though (and mostly double-deck still).
NYC is certainly my favorite, but Boston would definitely be the runner-up. Since I spent four years in beantown as a college student, I enjoyed my travels on the MBTA, especially the type 8s (when they would run) and of course the Mattapan Line. -Nick
New York without a moment's hesitation. I've done it in San Fran, LA, D.C., Paris, London, and a few other places I can't recall at this moment. New York's the best. It can be creaky, creepy, but oh boy the people you meet, the different routes, the cuts, elevated, and subways, and, yes, Brighton fans, the embankment. New York rules in that regard.
and, yes, Brighton fans, the embankment.
Oh wow, has he flipped? The Sea Beach isn't even mentioned in this response! LOL. Seriously though, I agree, that emabankment is great.
Some say I flipped ages ago, but I do have a reputation for honesty, and the Brighton does give the rider a hell of a lot of variety. But don't tell that to Q, Bob, or the other Brightoneers. I'll never live that down.
Yes, he's flipped because he left out the CYCLONE!!!
--Mark
My top four, in descending order: Dayton, New York, London, San Francisco.
What about Ulan Bataar?
Check Stan Fischler's "Subways of the World" book for looks at worldwide subway systems...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I would love to spend a week in Tokyo to do railfanning. There are 3 different transit monorails in the area, numerous private commuter trains running through the metro, expansive subway, streetcar line, and an elevated train that loops the downtown.
I'm told the Tokyo subway is all underground. Can anybody verify that or reject that?
It's my understanding (I've never been there, but I do have a video about the Tokyo subway) that the subway trains access commuter rail lines when they leave the central city and move out into the suburbs. They have crew changes at those points as well.
So it would be a matter of definition: do you count the commuter rail lines (which are above ground) as part of the subway, since subway trains run there, or do you not, since they're not dedicated to the subway?
(I don't know whether there's any above-ground running on dedicated subway tracks or not.)
Mvh Tim
Check out the web page http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-oasis/5002/
It has pictures of subways in Japan and includes suburban trains running in subway tunnels.
Regarding above ground Tokyo subway running, there is some elevated tracks too.
I would love to spend a week in Tokyo to do railfanning. There are 3 different transit monorails in the area, numerous private commuter trains running through the metro, expansive subway, streetcar line, and an elevated train that loops the downtown. I also believe JR also runs double decker bullet trains as commuter trains to a couple of suburbs 65 miles away!
Hm? No DC nominations? I'm shocked! Well, DC is my favorite, then Philly, of course. Only problem in DC is a lack of railfan seats, but it's easy to access the system, especially by Amtrak. Philly, however, has almost every type of rail transit that exists (I think monorails and cable cars are all that's missing), though the subway isn't very expansive, it's easy to find.
Fortunately, the wall between the tranverse cab of some DC subway cars is a transparent window, so at least when the train is above ground, you can look straight ahead as it you had a real railfan window. I haven't tried this in the tunnels, though. It may be too dark to get a good view this way, since I think that divider window is tinted. I may be wrong about this, since my memory is a little fuzzy.
Always glad to hear a vote for Philly, too!
Mark
It's not so bad underground, except for some of the older alignments. At first, I thought it was too dark to see anything, then I realized that DC uses separate tubes, much unlike the structure of the Broad Street Line. There's little to see underground, and you've got to keep your eyes peeled to spot the interlock structures. I'm headed down there in about a month, but I'm taking my sweetheart, so this won't be a railfan trip.
As far as the older alignments, think of any tunnel except the tunnel from Wheaton to Glenmont, the Green Line Mid-City tunnel, or the southernmost tunnels on the Green Line. Most of the new tunnels use brighter lights, thoug Metro could stand to think of using the orange lights that SEPTA is so fond of (Think Broad Street Line, Fairmount to Snyder Avenue, or Market-Frankford Line from 34th Street east (excluding the 2nd Street curve))
Well, as a long time railfan, I would HAVE to say New York, with its huge variety of trains, stations and routes, but with my favorite cars either vanishing or soon to vanish, the era of the railfan window will come to an end here in NYC - and I would have to relinquish the crown to my Second City - that being Washington, DC and its beautiful Metrorail system.
wayne
Someone had to bring Hong Kong up, and I guess that duty fell to me. Heh...
Still, Hong Kong has a very complete system: subway, commuter rail, LRT, tram, peak tram, ferry, bus, minibus. It's a commuter transport fan's paradise! But still, I should stick to plain rail transports.
Railway is going through a boom in HK...Tseung Kwan O line, West Rail...they've barely started the great expansion! I wish I could have photos and stuff, but I sent 'em all to Dave.
-J!
Just imagine trackage made of bamboo and trainsets powered by riceballs always going East with icons of Mao Zhe Tung facing you in the urinal. Nothing will ever compare with the noise/smell/dirt/grease/heat/humidity/wandering fruitloops of the New York City Subway. Car inspector Peter NYCTA CED
wellllllll...then OJ.
have you been there? I think not so shut you face and you might learn something.
Actually, I have become very familiar with the worlds transportation systems since working for TA. Hong Kong was moving very heavily long before 1999 'surrender' with the 'New Territories.' Despite all the flak and bad experiences TA has with Bombardier, THAT company is international in scope and is a major worldwide supplier of transportation systems along with a battery of other international companies that will not do business with NYCTA. You obviously missed my 'tongue in cheek' humor and allowed revisionist thought to overcome common sense. Punishment will be rereading the Red Book ten times over with a 'pop quiz.' Rice is good for the bowels and laughter heals. CI Peter
Actually, Even China proper doesn't push Mao Zedung too much any more, Pepsi and McDonalds are making China look like the rest of the world.
Chairman Mao Zse Dung is a tourist icon now like buying a sitting statue of Abraham Lincoln in Washington, D of C. The poor guy didn't recognise my off the wall humor. So where does the USA dollars go? To development of the Shengzou Economic Development Zone and real estate here in New York City. Former USSR used to buy two...like two tractors...one to take apart/analyse/duplicate and the other to figure out why the duplicate doesn't work. China 'ain't no stupido' and pays premium bucks for working Western technology. 'Hand Laundry' has gone 'Maytag.' Oh for the days of the 'English speaking commentator' of Radio Moscow.......Ladd the Impailer. CI Peter
And here I was trying to make my point...-_-;
Having spent a whole morning on the Peak tram in Hong Kong, stopping at the various stations and looking around, I would seriously commend bamboo as a scaffolding material. Since there is little space, but apparently good rock footings, all the way up the beak there are high-rise apartments being built, with the exteriors covered in bamboo!
BTW, the peak tram is fascinating engineering: the outer wheel of each tram has two flanges while the inner wheel has none, so that the trams can use one set of rails for most of the trip and have a short length of double track for passing. The views are pretty good too!
John
I would have to pick California, because of the Amtrak California Trains such as the Pacific Surfliner, Coast Starlight, and Metrolink (None Amtrak). And my second favorite city would be New Jersey for the NJT Trains.
When did California become a city?
When did California become a city?
About 1950 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And was it before or after New Jersey became a city? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Mine? Why, New York, of course.
The Boston Big Dig Web site has a few new transit-related photos:
Two-car Green Line train on Lechmere viaduct at Science Park Station (and MBTA North Side Commuter Rail bridge over Charles River in background)
MBTA Commuter Rail and Amtrak NE Corridor approach to South Station (left of image)
MBTA Commuter Rail bridge over Charles River and North Station lead tracks
MBTA Red Line Cabot Yard(and Dorchester Branch (left) and NE Corridor (right) approaches to South Station)
I remember saying that Amtrak should purchase TGV trainsets, to have more competition with the Airlines, Now, I think Amtrak should purchase Maglev Trainsets that can reach speeds of 350+ mph, with Maglev, Amtrak would be #1 in Passenger Transportation in the US. They say the Maglev Trains are virtually impossible to derail, saves energy, and is a safer way to travel.
You need a lot of money to do something like that. plus, freight and commuter trains use the trackage that amtrack owns. It doesn't own most of its trackage though, and that cannot be converted to maglev.
The Maglev can't be blocked by Freights & Commuters because, it doesn't run on tracks, it runs on a Guideway.
You don't understand what I mean: Amtrack would have to remove the existing tracks (used by freight trains and commuter lines) and put in the guideway, effectively screwing the LIRR and numerous other northeast corridor lines (freight or commuter). And in the places where they DO NOT own their own tracks, they'd have to purchase a NEW ROW and build tracks. That would cost billions of dollars right there, and we haven't even bought trains yet. Where is this money coming from?
they'd have to purchase a NEW ROW and build tracks.
What you are forgetting is that MagLevs tend to be elevated. For that sort of thing, you merely have to build an elevated structure down the middle of a major highway.
okay, lets say that you do that. an elevated structure is more expensive than one on the ground. So, while it might be cheaper than purchasing new ROWs, it would still be expensive.
Agreed. It is fair to say that if one owns the land, the actual construction of an el would be three times that at ground level and the construction of a subway three times that at elevated level. Elevated becomes viable when land becomes expensive.
Another problem with Maglev is the technology is incredibly expensive, and there are currently NO commercial applications of it. There are also issues with the effect that the magnetic field will have on pacemakers and carry-on electronics.
-Hank
Another problem with Maglev is the technology is incredibly expensive
It would become less so once there was more application of the technology. Any technology which is not applied much will cost a lot to begin with.
there are currently NO commercial applications of it.
Thanks to BHX replacing it with a lousy shuttle bus which takes up to 20 minutes rather than up to 3. (Call me bitter, but it sure as hell annoys me every time I use BHX).
There are also issues with the effect that the magnetic field will have on pacemakers and carry-on electronics.
I had not seen that documented.
I don't think Amtrak would get rid of existing tracks to install Guideways, I think Amtrak would install a whole new route, but who knows.
Making whole new routes would be expensive, because, once again, Amtrak would have to buy new right of way to do that, unless they built all the lines down the medians of interstate highways.
Mark
IF it is ever built, it won't be run by Amtrak.
-Hank
It would be impossibly expensive for Amtrak to do this....
If AMTK were a private or quasi-private company.
But as a national railroad agency, it would NOT be so expensive to acquire ROW.
Much of the ROW would be along existing interstate and other highways. I envision an elevated ROW because it is more reliable (Or perhaps you have never seen a North Dakota Blizard.) An elevated ROW will blow clear of snow where other transportation grinds to a halt.
Another intersting thing, that a private company cannot take advantage of, but a goernment agency could... SECTION LINES.
OK you east coast states do not have section lines, after all it was the Federal Govt that invented section lines AFTER the east coast states were populated... but, at least here in North Dakota, every secion line *is* a road. We own three adjacent sections of land, and between two of them is a state highway. OK... That *looks* like a road, but between the other two sections, there is nothing. OK, there *is* a parbed wire fence, but we put that there to control where the cows were. But If a neighbor wanted to build a house on a land locked section, he would go to the county and say "I want to put a road here.", the county would require us to move back our fences and open up that section line so that the other guy could build a road. (Or if the county wanted to build the road (then the School Bus could use it too)).
The power company could not say, we will put a power line here, that is a private company, and could not build on the ROW anyway. Even now when you look along the highways (at least here in ND, the power poles are usually on the private side of the fence. But a govt agency such as AMTK could build an elevated line along the section line and it wouldn't even disrupt the farms.
Listen Guys... you Gotta think outside of the box, you gotta think HOW WE CAN, not why we cannot.
Elias
Your theories for Maglev are great but the issue of Amtrak rebuilding their tracks wouldnt cost so much being that Amtrak owns barely 300 miles nationwide. Perfect example is a trip from NYC to Miami. Amtrak doesn't own a single inch for the entire trip. If you want to see Maglev happen on the east coast then the MTA-NYC or NJTransit can do it. their the only commuter transit companies that owns their rails.
Excuse me?
First off: NYC-Miami not on any Amtrak track? I'm confused, if amtrak does not own the NEC, then who does? Some evil conspiracy group perhaps? NYC-Miami is a perfect example of track that IS amtrak owned, not visa versa. Amtrak owns all the NEC south of NYP, down to Washington Union. The NYP-Miami trains run right down them, usually they're pulled by E60s, and use Amfleets, heritage, and viewliner equipment.
Second: What does exsisting ROW have anything to do with maglev? Do you think that NJT is gonna rip out the Boonton and M&E lines just to run some Maglevs? That would be a travesty of all times, Maglev moves people, not necesarrily freight (sure it could, but since when does coal need to get there in a hurry?). Maglev is much better suited to an elevated position over an existing row, especially out here in the east, where land is at a premium, and you no longer can go around displacing all kinds of people.
Third: Why would NJT and MTA want to run Maglevs? And no, they are not the only commuter agencys on the east coast to own their own track my NYC-centric friend, Septa and IIRC MBTA both own their own track for portions of their respective lines. Maglev is not really suitable to commuter service, since you would need to get going really fast to make it worthwhile, and the acceleration would be quite stressing. Also if you want to see Maglev on the east coast, keep an open mind and when it comes support it. Ridership powers this thing, and you have to ride it to keep it, so don't turn your nose up at it. A maglev could come from a varity of sources, from a Quasi-Amtrak-type group, to a fully private venture, be prepared for anything.
You are correct about the NEC however beyond DC is owned by NS and CSX. And like you said Maglev is for a long distance. But time will tell what will come down the road. I'm still waiting for Acela service to reach Atlanta or Jacksonville on the planned SEC.
Look at this circular argument:
(1) Maglev won't be competitive unless it travels a long distance, because it needs to accelerate to top speed.
(2) Maglev won't be competitive unless it is kept reasonably short, because the guideway is very expensive.
Therefore, it is conceivable that there is no distance niche for which Maglev is the best technology. For short distances, conventional HSR is more cost effective; for long distances, airplane is more cost effective.
People used to say the same about overnight trains -- people told me that there may be no niche between a somewhat long corridor train (e.g. 5 hours) and a somewhat short flight (e.g. 1.5 hours flight time) to be covered by overnight rail. However, I argue that overnight rail has its niche in the "type of accommodation", because it is a unique product different to corridor rail and different to a short flight. That, plus the incremental cost of implementing overnight rail is practically zero once you have continuous corridor rail infrastructure in place. However, Maglev cannot claim to be a substantially different product to either a corridor train or an airline seat. The incremental cost of implementing it is not trivial either.
AEM7
How long does it really take these maglev trains to accelerate to top speed? And if thats the case, wouldn't it depend more on how many stops the train makes rather than how long the route is? Also, I remember speaking to some of the Baltimore-Washington maglev people who said acceleration would not be a problem.
Why would you want an SEC when Maglev is just as possible? Two rail steel wheel on steel rail is nearly obsolete, so why go building another NEC? Acela is basically a failure, kill it before it takes amtrak down with it, from what I have heard, MARTA has problems, and Hartsfield is a mess, why do you want Atlanta to endure another transportation faux pas?
Wait for maglev. I don't care if you build a grade separated, dedicated ROW with 25000vac power, cab signals and armed guards every mile with NVGs to keep the suicides off the tracks. Two rail HSR will never come close to the efficency that can be achieved by an Inductrack monorail system, no matter what obsolete French equipment we buy. The simple truth is that we need maglev, planes pollute too much, trains are fine, but even the HSRs that are being discussed are too slow to be a competition to the Airlines, and we definitely need to get people out of their cars in certain areas, heck in most of the country.
BTW: Do we really need ANOTHER acronym with SEC, aren't two enough? Couldn't we come up with a better name for a South East Corridor?
AMTRAK!
AMTRAK!!
AMTRAK!!!
AMTRAK!!!!
AMTRAK!!!!!
AFLAC
*sigh* Another lemming.
You got it. Nowhere is there a common-carier maglev line. The ones that exist are test tracks only.
The Baltimore/Washington and Pittsburgh areas are in contest for aa maglev line - in Baltimore/WAshington there are no ready rights-of way. Neither ATK or CSX wants it anywhere near or on their ROW's, all other proposed routes are already occupied by multi-laned interstates with no place for the structure.
It's a billion dollar boondoggle, may Pittsburg win!! (They just might. Their Senators are fighting for it, Maryland's (properly) don't care.
You got it. Nowhere is there a common-carier maglev line. The ones that exist are test tracks only.
There is a real system being built in China by Siemens or "Transrapid". My cynicism tells me that they are outsourcing their testing to a 3rd world country. After all, if some Maglev trains blow up, I bet you the political fallout would be much less for Siemens if it occured in China and killed Chinese people than if it occured in Germany and killed Europeans from all countries. Unfortunate but true.
The Baltimore/Washington and Pittsburgh areas are in contest for aa maglev line - in Baltimore/WAshington there are no ready rights-of way. Neither ATK or CSX wants it anywhere near or on their ROW's, all other proposed routes are already occupied by multi-laned interstates with no place for the structure.
Pittsburgh is about the most braindead place you can put a Maglev. It's not at all strategic: if you were going to be building a transcon Maglev system between BOS, NYC, WAS, Florida and CHI, you wouldn't hub it through Pittsburgh -- certainly not along the PRR ROW. And anyway a transcon Maglev is a stupid idea to start with.
So the U.S.'s first maglev project could well be linking Pittsburgh Airport with Greensburg -- a redneck "city" of less than 250,000 population.
Actually, that may not be a bad thing. This maglev will flop, no one will ride it, and people will forget about maglev for a long while. At least they aren't building it in the BWI corridor just because it's close to Washington and the bigwigs.
Personally I think the California proposal had the most merit. Not that I had read it in any detail. The Denver proposal was half-assed, and I seem to remember there was a Portland proposal.
Hey, I'll tell you where to build a Maglev that will actually make a difference. One linking JFK, LGA, and EWR with a huge Park & Ride on I-80 or I-90 somewhere near Albany.
AEM7
It's a billion dollar boondoggle, may Pittsburg win!! (They just might. Their Senators are fighting for it, Maryland's (properly) don't care
I should have noticed that. Somehow this about Pennsylvania senators does not surprise me at all. Think about it:
* Main Line of Public Works
* Penna Turnpike
* Penn-Central
* U.S. Airways
* I-99
* Pittsburgh Maglev (?)
AEM7
Wait, wait, an explanation is needed for the younger ones:
* Main Line of Public Works [verdict: bankruptcy]
* Penna Turnpike [verdict: does not comply with interstate standards]
* Penn-Central [verdict: Chapter 11]
* U.S. Airways [verdict: Chapter 11 soon enough]
* I-99 [verdict: no one uses it]
* Pittsburgh Maglev [jury is out on this one]
Wait, wait, an explanation [of Pennsylvania's transportation woes] is needed for the younger ones:
* Main Line of Public Works [verdict: bankruptcy]
Dunno anything about this one.
* Penna Turnpike [verdict: does not comply with interstate standards]
It long pre-dates the Interstate system and its standards.
* Penn-Central [verdict: Chapter 11]
We all know about this - is it really Pennsylvania's fault?
* U.S. Airways [verdict: Chapter 11 soon enough]
Its headquarters is in the DC area, and CLT is as large a hub as PIT.
* I-99 [verdict: no one uses it]
Bud Shuster's personal folly.
* Pittsburgh Maglev [jury is out on this one]
Agreed.
* Main Line of Public Works [verdict: bankruptcy]
Main Line of Public Works consisted of a series of "transportation facilities" across PA constructed in the early 18th century using public funds. The technology involved a true integrated intermodal system with a railroad, a number of inclined planes (cable cars on rails), and a number of canals. Despite the construction of Pennsylvania Railroad and the Horseshoe Curve, PA legislature pressed for the construction of the Muleshoe Curve over the same mountain ridge, and when the MLofPW opened in its entirety, quelle surprise nobody used it. They wound up being bought out by the Pennsylvania Railroad.
This is in stark contrast to the goings on in upstate New York, where the legislature protected the State (public) canal interest and regulated the market so tightly that NYC hardly made much money in its early days. Well, that's until Vanderbilt came along and screwed the legislature over.
So the verdict is:
Pennsylvania Legislature (in the 19th century) = Corrupt
New York Legislature (in the 19th century) = Stupid
We all know about this - is it really Pennsylvania's fault?
I think much of the problem arose from ex-Penn people's obsession with doing things in an "acceptable" manner. I agree that the ex-NYC camp was too radical and did things that weren't 100% surefire, but Penn's decision to issue dividends every year (electing instead to defer much needed maintenance) and failure to recognize that the giant PRR could soon be no more, is what eventually caused the Penn Central debacle. I think that NYC could have made it all alone Conrail style, but instead they had to merge... Many NYC-types left Penn-Central after the merger and went to work elsewhere.
U.S. Airways: Its headquarters is in the DC area, and CLT is as large a hub as PIT
PHL and PIT are the two biggest hubs. If CLT is truly a hub in the sense of an airline hub, how can an air carrier with three hubs within 200 miles of each other expect to make money!? Anyway, U.S. Airways is pretty much propped up by Pennsylvania legislature. If they had been owned by a less old-school group, they'd have been out of business long ago. U.S. Air is worth a lot of money, especially their shuttle routes. They need liquidated.
AEM7
The infrastructure for MagLev trains is extremely expensive. I believe it is the way of the future, but there needs to be a major change of thinking in this country before people will invest in it,
MATT-2AV
The infrastructure for MagLev trains is extremely expensive. I believe it is the way of the future, but there needs to be a major change of thinking in this country before people will invest in it.
It's entirely possible that there has been a major change of thinking. After September 11th, air travel is no longer quite as desirable an option for long-distance trips. Many millions of people have sworn off flying altogether, and no doubt a signficant percentage of those who still fly would rather not, but lack decent alternatives. Don't get me wrong, a MagLev network, even one that's not very dense, would be extremely expensive, but if there's ever been a right time for such a huge project the time is now.
Okay, forget the thinking. MONEY is what you need. The whole friggin population could be like: yay, maglev trains!, but it's ultimately who the government funds that matters. They seem to bail out airliners without hesitation, but as for funding Amtrak, they seem hesitant to do that.
Okay, forget the thinking. MONEY is what you need. The whole friggin population could be like: yay, maglev trains!, but it's ultimately who the government funds that matters. They seem to bail out airliners without hesitation, but as for funding Amtrak, they seem hesitant to do that.
I do not view Congress' stinginess when it comes to Amtrak as a rejection of the concept of passenger rail per se. Congress has figured that Amtrak's chronic mismanagement means that giving more funding will be throwing good money after bad. In other words, the problem from a government perspective is with Amtrak specificially, not passenger rail generally. I know, this is a fine distiction, and I'm well aware that political insistence on uneconomic routes is a major cause of Amtrak's woes. Even so, the idea of passenger rail has not been discarded.
As for the airline bailout, it's a response to a very bad situation (the aftermath of September 11th) that wasn't the airlines' fault. Moreover, the airlines are big employers, far more so than Amtrak, and the federal government obviously did not want to see mass unemployment in the industry. And let's not forget that the bailout does not involve direct subsidies to the airlines, but merely the federal government's willingness to guarantee private loans. Nor are these loan guarantees being handed out indiscriminately; the government told Vanguard Airlines to take a hike, so to speak, as the company's financial position was too precarious.
Of course, the fact that we have a system like Amtrak in the first place could be indicative of a less-than-enthusiastic attitude toward passenger rail in the first place. AMtrak is so screwy because to few people care enough to set up a decent system.
Mark
>>> I do not view Congress' stinginess when it comes to Amtrak as a rejection of the concept of passenger rail per se. Congress has figured that Amtrak's chronic mismanagement means that giving more funding will be throwing good money after bad. <<<
Such naivete. Congress was preventing Amtrak from being successful right from its beginning hoping it would go away and die on its own accord.. They treated it like parents who lock an unwanted child in a closet and give it just sufficient food and water to keep it from starving to death, but nothing to develop it into a functioning human being. The best management in the world cannot run an effective organization without sufficient resources.
>>> As for the airline bailout, it's a response to a very bad situation (the aftermath of September 11th) that wasn't the airlines' fault. <<<
The bailout after September 11th was not the first subsidy to the airline industry, and since airlines were responsible for security (or lack of it) before September 11th, it is not exactly true that they were completely blameless for what happened. The biggest bailout was setting up a fund for victims to keep them from suing the airlines involved.
Tom
The biggest bailout was setting up a fund for victims to keep them from suing the airlines involved.
I can tell you're a lawyer...
Maybe in the far future when maglev technology is prefected, and Europe switches all their high speed trains over to maglev, the U.S. will finally decide that trains really are important and we can buy all the old obsolete TGVs, ICEs, etc. from the European railroads and run them here. :)
Mark
Unfortunately, that statement is true. The United States has fallen behind in the terms of technology, while other countries continue to grow. For some reason they just love the status quo here. It was fine, when all the other countries were behind us, but for the US to continue to be the most advanced, and the leader, we really need to start embracing new technology more freely, as the European countries and Japan are doing, and have done.
The United States has fallen behind in the terms of technology, while other countries continue to grow. For some reason they just love the status quo here.
Hey, the Republicans don't want to pay any taxes at all
and the Democrats want pay it all out on social things that will get them reelected.
A POX on both of them!
They probably would buy the TGV's, they wouldn't be that expensive, because they are used vehicles.
They probably would buy the TGV's
Nah the TGV's are good trains - they'd buy Eurostars and IC225's.
That would require a lot more infrastructure changes than buying TGVs. TGVs would require straigtening curvy tracks and welding the rails, eliminating grade crossings, etc. But a maglev would require a whole new "track" system, adding expense.
The other problem with maglevs is that a lot of energy is required just to levitate the train. To eliminate this, we might imagine using a hybrid vehicle, that is, a train on wheels that is propelled by linear propulsion, like some of the fancier roller-coasters are. This would save some energy.
I know there are more obstacles, but I'm not expert enough to know what they are. Personally, I would be happy with real high speed trains in this country, even if they were powered by old-fashioned electric motors. Even this seems like a fantasy way beyond reach most of the time, given prevailing attitudes.
Mark
High Speed TGV's will be always #1 with me.
But a maglev would require a whole new "track" system, adding expense.
And this *is* a heck of a lot cheaper than upgrading the existing crap. Especially since you would still have to have heavy railroads to move freight.
Europe doesn't know squat about rail freight.
The trouble being, the energy requirements to move a maglev train at 300+mph are greater than the requirements to move an airplane of the same capacity.
maglev's a waste. The TGV has already been proven to be able to operate at 300+mph, and the trouble with it being *viable* is - the energy costs. it simply takes too much energy to move it to be economic (not to mention, it stretches the limits of current propulsion technology)
The trouble being, the energy requirements to move a maglev train at 300+mph are greater than the requirements to move an airplane of the same capacity.
Maybe so... but Ill bet you it would not cost too much more than that to move an extra 15 cars on the same train since it is the lead car that has to break the wind resistance, and the rest follow in the opening it has made.
Think of geese in flight! The leader puts the most energy into the project, and the others are lifted on the currents that he sets up. When the leader gets tired, he falls back and the next one gets the point.
Elias
Yes / no.
Never discount the effects of the inevitable gaps between the cars, even with acordians. At that high a speed, stuff like that actually becomes quite significant. Even at lower speeds - ever wonder what the metal plates at the ends of the pans on New Haven line cars were put there for?
Since we are looking at new technology, we need to break through all of the old technology. Are the gaps between the cars a problem? Eliminate them. A Talgo fleet with no gaps at all is one possible solution.
When I think of high speed, my mind tends to wander away from two rails with round wheels. A monorail system seems to be very viable.
Maglev is interesting in the abstract, but I am NOT sold on it.
How is MagLev diferent from Liner Induction Motors?
In my vision of High Speed Rail, one might have double lines in high density coredors, but a majority of routes might wll be single line with Island Stations at meet points. But I am not married to a plan, but only looking at all of the plans that wnader in here.
Elias
All maglevs are driven by linear propulsion motors, but not all vehicles with linear propulsion motors are maglevs. In a maglev, magnetic field propels the vehicle and lifts the vehicle a tiny hieght above the "track." Meanwhile, some systems roll on wheels, not levitating at all, but are powered by linear propulsion motors. Some fancy roller coasters use this kind of hybrid technology. Since they don't levitate, they aren't maglevs.
Mark
I wouldn't call LIM a hybrid technology. It's well proven, in use in several countries everyday (coming soon to the USA!), as opposed to maglev technology, which is still in its infancy.
-Hank
By "hybrid" I only meant that it used aspects of both maglevs and the classical wheeled vehicle. I wasn't trying to imply any novelty to the technology. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Mark
When I think of high speed, my mind tends to wander away from two rails with round wheels. A monorail system seems to be very viable.
I got a dumb question.
You like the idea of a monorail.
How do you keep the monorail vehicle on the rail? How do you stop it from derailing?
No one from the monorail lobby has satisfactorily answered that question. They talk about the vehicle being suspended, they beat around the bush with additional guidence systems and center of gravity etc. WHY BOTHER? Why not two rails?
AEM7
Monorails work just fine, just not at high speed. Outside of Disneyland/Disneyworld, Seattle and Tokyo have mass-transit monorail systems. They exist at numerous airports (such as Newark in the US). Monorails are a proven technology. They're expensive, however.
-Hank
I'm aware of the monorail systems that are in operation. I do not have positive opinions about any of them. AEM7
Having ridden it last summer, I have difficulty terming the Seattle monorail a mass transit system. Yes, monthly commuter tickets are available, and it might be useful for people who work in the Seattle Center exhibition area and take trains or buses into downtown, but I'd say it's a fair assumption that 99% of the riders use it for strictly entertainment/tourist purposes.
How do you keep the monorail vehicle on the rail? How do you stop it from derailing?
Monorail is according to me a bit of a misnomer. I rode on the Seattle Monorail, and yes I agree that it is that it is more of a tourist attraction than a commuter line. But I'm not sure that I would call it a monorail either.... It is a bout 18 inches wide, and while the weight appears to be carried on the top, the cars are hugging the guiedways on all four sides (Top, right left, and on the bottom, both right and left. In otherwords, you cannot lift the car from the trackway, as you could with a railroad car.
A system with an over riding rail woould ballance like a cable car, and again would clamp the rail from all sides. Such a system as this does not attract me as there is little mass there for the propultion system.
An elvated concrete and steel guideway perhaps three feet across, having flat shoulders for the wheelways, and some sort of guidance and propulsion system seems attractive, but we have no real prototypes running,especially for the distances and speeds that we are interested in.
Elias
Is the Maglev Trains driverless or with a operator?
"Is the Maglev Trains driverless or with a operator? "
So far, the poor thing doesn't even have an engineer to design it.
Still, I'd not want to put such a vehicle on the road without an operator.
Elias
Ok, why do people have such a !@#durn hard time with anything that deviates from conventional 2 track and wooden rails?!
Monorails of the Alweg style, that is of the types found in Seattle, Disneyland and also Japan and Malaysia, and seen above, are derail-proof, the way they hug the guide way on three sides with three wheels means that the cannot be removed from the track. The Seattle Monorail is indeed a monorail, in the classic sense of the word, do you see two tracks? I sure as heck only see one. The Seattle monorail's Alweg style of construction is perhaps the most effiecent of all methods of building a monorail since it requires only prefab concrete beams and simple supports. On the subject of construction of the Seattle monorail, Monorails.org technical pages says, "The construction procedure was very simple. After the foundations were in place, one crane and one labor crew could set 12 columns/day. Then, two cranes plus one labor crew could set 18 beams/day." Japan has taken advantage of this and built many many monorails, the Osaka monorail is one of the most prolific systems in the world.
Seattle's monorail is somewhat odd, for it's trains are very heavy, designed for high speed, and yet it's route is only like 2 miles long. It is a commuter system, many people use it to get from parking garages and such up by the seattle center down to the westlake center in downtown. And yes it is also a major tourist attraction, and at around 2 miles long, it is shorter than some tourist monorails elsewhere.
Also, according to the Seattle area of this very site, the Seattle monorail, "With adult round trip fares of $2.50 ... Has the distinction of being the only publicly owned rail transit system, in the US, that makes a profit," and, "With a maximum speed of 50 mph, Seattle's monorail remains the fastest full-sized monorail system in the U.S." Both of these are quite impressive, especially when the fact that they were built in 1962 is remembered, and are representative of the Alweg style of monorails. They are much faster, cheaper, and lower maintenence than the PA's Airtrain "VonRoll" style steel box monorails.
I highly recommend these sites for all of you who are confused about monorails:
The Monorail Society
The Alweg Archives
Just One Heck of a good idea.
Ok, why do people have such a !@#durn hard time with anything that deviates from conventional 2 track and wooden rails?!
Because we're AAR people maybe?
... seen above, are derail-proof, the way they hug the guide way on three sides with three wheels means that the cannot be removed from the track.
That's not a monorail. That is a tri-rail. There are three rails, one facing the top, the other two facing either side.
Thanks for all your effort in explaining the monorail (well, tri-rail) concept to me. Now, how does a tri-rail vehicle negotiate a set of points? I don't see how this sort of design could go around a turnout or a diamond.
I remember seeing sometime ago some people from Taxi2000 explaining that they could build the switching mechanism into the vehicle rather than into the track, in a "personal rapid transit" system. I am thinking that monorail could do the same type of mechanism, but I seriously do not think that it will work at high speeds. Speed aside, let me ask this simple set of questions:
How many moving parts do you have in a set of points?
How many moving parts do you have in a self-steering truck/bogie?
Are there more sets of points or trucks in a typical transit system?
(Hint: There are a total of 47 switch machines on the MBTA Red Line. The MBTA Red Line fleet comprises of 4 trucks per 2-car trainset, and there are perhaps 250-ish trainsets in service)
AEM7
It's doable, and it is done. There are segmented switches, beam replacement switches, and rotary switches. A segmented switch works exactly like the movable barrier on the Gowanus or the Tappan Zee Bridge, only the mechanical parts are permanent. A beam replacement switch mounts two beams on a table, and the table is moved and the beam is 'changed'. A rotary switch is a beam replacement switch that has a pivot in it's center, and simply rotates over.
-Hank
Sorry about that, I suppose, dependent upon your definition of rail, the Alweg design is either a Monorail or a Tri rail, I alway assumed monorail to mean just the load bearing wheels, which ride on one wheel, and that the stablizing wheels to either side don't count, but is suppose its a tomato - tomahto kinda thing.
Yes switches are a problem for monorails, especially when they were concieved, perhaps the technology or something was not there to adequately switch the trains from one track to another. But today there are a variety of switches for a variety of monorail designs. The Monorail Society did an excellent piece on switching monorails, and there are basically three different choices for an Alweg style monorail (BTW you'll have to excuse my ignoring the Safege, I beam, and Von roll systems, but I see much more promise in the Alweg monorail, and consequently I know little about these systems).
The first is a segmented switch, which has been used to great effect in Japan on Osaka's Monorail. There are approximately 8-10 moving points per switch, that I can tell from the picture at the link. The Advantages of a segemented switch are that the monorail can pass over the points at speed, and that the passengers will never know that they just were switched from one track to another, also because of it's design, it takes up no more space than a parallel section of track. The downside to a segemented switch is that it is more complex and expensive than a straight or curved track without a switch, and also is possibly the most complex of all switching methods. As such it is really only suited to mainline applications at major junctions, where trains will need to pass over at speed, and where space may be at a premium.
The second method for a to switch tracks called the Beam Replacement Method. Just like it sounds, the divergent and tangent routes both are mounted on hinges. There are only maybe 5 moving parts to this system, the two hinges, and then the two support structures that hold all this up, they don't move, but at the top there would need to be a rail or something for the tracks to move on, and finally a drive motor for all of it. When a train wishes to go straight, the straight track is aligned on the mainline, and the curved section is pushed aside, thus the train goes through without a change in direction. When a train wishes to take the divergent path, the hinged straight track is pushed aside, and the curved divergent track aligns with the main in it's place. The advantages of this are that the train can maintain speed over the crossing, and it is, from an engineering perspective, a slightly simpler solution, since you do not need to bend concrete. However, this swich requires a bit more real estate than a segmented switch, and also takes more materials, in the form of the divergent track than a segemented switch. Beam Replacement switches are really only suited to a mainline use where the mainline will be used most of the time, but the divergent route will be used occasionally, like a lead for a train yard or something. These kinda switches are used by Disneyworld Florida for it's monorails.
The final solution to switching an Alweg style train is to use a turntable. Not a full 360 degree one, but one restricted to maybe 60 degrees or so. This is not a mainline application, it would require a full stop, unless you want one a mile long, but that would be ridiculous. It could only really be used in a yard, where trains will not be going very fast any way. The only possible application I could see for a turntable style switch would be on a 90 degree rarely used branchline. It would allow the mainline traffic to pass unmolested, but trains requiring switching would incur massive delays due to the fact that they must switch tracks. Also the turntable style switch would eat up a whole lot of space. The Wuppertal Schwebahn in Germany uses turntable style switches, but is a suspended double flanged monorail, a far cry from an alweg monorail.
A Possible alternatve to the turntable style switch is a Transfer table switch. Again, the mainline traffic can go along without delay. However, the traffic heading to the divergent route would be able to maintain some speed, so long as the switch was long enough, say two or three train lengths. The divergent route would merely curve off at the end of the transfer table, while the mainline kept a straight path.
Diamonds are a hard thing to do when the traincars straddle the track. Really the only solution I can come up with is to basically make a short section of track a turntable, it turns to meet the crossing traffic. If anyone can do better, please do try.
OK, now for the rolling stock, there are 6 wheels, two powered for each of the two bogies on each of the cars. There are 4 cars for each of the 2 trainsets. And there are no switches or anything for the Seattle Monorail.
However, the Osaka monorail is a much better comparison, since it is up to over 20 km long, with 16 stations. It has a bogie that uses 10 wheels per bogie, 4 powered in a 2 pair configuration, and the other 6 stabilizer wheels. There are two bogies per car, and, IIRC, Four cars in a trainset. Unfortunately, I can find no car count for the Osaka Monorail, it may be on their site, but I cannot find it in all those Japanese Characters.
Hope I clarified a few things about the Alweg Monorails
Look at what happened in Brockaway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook.
I thought the Monorail put them on the map.
"Ok, why do people have such a !@#durn hard time with anything that deviates from conventional 2 track and wooden rails?!"
We don't INSIST on wooden ties; stuff like concrete and plastic ties clearly work. :)
Seriously, though, IMHO the resistance comes from a desire to operate an integrated railway system, whether we're talking about an urban transit railway in a single city or the overall national passenger and freight system. Almost 2 centuries and untold billions have been spent creating a single interconnected American railway network, and grafting on incompatible new technology seems to me and others to be like institutionalizing at the national level New York's inefficient BMT/IND versus IRT split.
Like any network, railways are more valuable the more places that can be reached and the easier they can be reached. To give another network example, the telephone became more valuable both when more towns and cities were added to the system and when long-distance dialing lowered a barrier between the phones in one's city (which could be direct-dialed) and all other phones (where an operator had to be used).
To bring it back to rail, cross-platform transfers are good, but track connections allowing through train operation are even better because whole new routings can be created -- often literally with the flip of a switch -- as traffic patterns change. A completely incompatible monorail or maglev line prevents this useful through-routing. A monorail Second Avenue route would not be able to connect to the 63rd Street river tunnel or to any other existing subway route. While all the north-south subway lines in Manhattan include various routes branching in various directions in the outer boroughs, a Second Avenue monorail would be just a Second Avenue monorail, an island unto itself.
At the national/intercity level, no nation on Earth has created a high-speed network completely separate from its conventional-speed passenger and freight railways, with the exception of Japan's Shinkansens. All high-speed trains, Shinkansens excepted, operate at least some percentage of their route on conventional-speed tracks shared with slower trains, including freights.
The closest to a completely separate system outside Japan are the French TGVs, which use specially-built lines, the LGVs (Lignes de Grande Vitesse). But the LGVs are used only as trunks, with TGVs operating on non-LGV conventional-speed tracks to reach places off the LGV lines. "Of the 5000km that TGV trains serve in France, only about 1200km is high speed line, meaning 75% of TGV services run on existing track."* Far from being a negative, this is seen as giving the TGVs greater flexibility; cities off the LGV lines can still have TGV service without costly construction, and the trains are still faster than conventional trains because they operate at least part of the time on LGVs. Note that the Eurostar (Channel Tunnel) trains are TGVs that operate on conventional track in Britain and on LGVs in France -- the Eurostar project would have cost hundreds of millions (at least!) more if a completely new line had to be built between the British tunnel portal and London. A good description of the TGV system, includings its operation on non-LGV lines, is at http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A711785
* http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/maglev.htm a fairly PRO-maglev website. New LGV track has opened in the last couple of years, so this number may be different now, depending on when this guy last updated his webpage.
But wouldn't the magnetic fields erase credit cards and tapes?
"But wouldn't the magnetic fields erase credit cards and tapes?"
That would help! : ) Elias
Maglev is the only way the united states will ever free itself of the stranglehold that the airlines currently has on us. Some people have said that we should invest in a High Speed Corridor, running TGV, ICE or Shinkansen trains on a grade separated, dedicated ROW. The trouble with such a plan is that it gets us right back where we started, right behind the europeans and asians. By the time such a project were completed, if ever, they would have a functioning, if infantile, Maglev system. It is only by skipping HSR and going straight to Maglev that the US can catch up somewhat to the currently advanced Asian and European systems.
Maglev is a better choice for any speed, not merely the extreme 200+ mph, a TGV may be able to top 300, but can it sustain it? And how efficient will it be at that speed? The wheels and rotary electric motors of a TGV, ICE, or other HSR train mean that they store massive quantities of kinetic energy, and subject those parts to massive G forces in the form of Centripedal Acceleration. This eats up energy, and can make it harder to stop. Also there is friction between the Wheels and Railhead, along with sideforces in turns that grind the flanges, and also there will always be vibration, both to the truck and the passenger compartment no matter whan is done to the track, the trucks, or the cars. Vibration is a vehicle killer, it shakes nuts loose, knocks cables off and potentially lowers the lifetime of a vehicle. At the very least it eats up maintnence time that could be spent elsewhere.
Maglev has no wheels, no vibration, and no friction from those wheels, all it has to do is overcome the wind resistance after accelerating. This apparantly makes the maglev many times more efficient than a conventional rail using train. However, the track often needs to powered, to provide levitation, and that sumps energy that could be used to power the train. Also the German Transrapid, and Japanese sytems both require very advanced technology, and, in the case of the german system, are prone to catastrophic failure. The Japanese system uses maglevs with superconducting magnets, and while eventually these could be the thing in Maglevs, for the time being, they are too advanced, and more importantly, too expensive, for us. The German system uses a monorail style track with the Maglev wrapped around the track. The Magnets are placed on the bottom, and the train pulls itself up to the track. However, the train is not automatic, and as such a computer must be used with a feedback circuit to determine if the train needs to rise or fall, and a failure in that computer could lead to the train smashing into the guideway at 200+mph.
The solution to both of these problems, the superconductors, and the feedback system, is the Halbach Array, also called Inductrack. It actually isn't new news, it's been around for maybe 5 years or so already, yet it is perfect for maglev applications. The Halbach array consists of a series of permanent magnets placed at 90 degrees to the previous under the train. This halbach array concentrates all the power on oneside of the magnet, while on the other side there is nearly no force at all. A train using the halbach array needs to achieve a specific speed before it "transitions" from a rolling wheeled vehicle to a flying maglev vehicle, most physicists seem to think this would be between 2 and 6 miles per hour. Above this speed, the train can move as a normal maglev, performing as well, if not better than the competing systems. Once the operating as a maglev, the train is litterally foolproof, for as load increases the magnetic force correspondingly pushes back. The effect of magnetic drag on the halbach array is similar, as speed increases, the drag actually decreases, unlike other kind of friction, which increase as speed increase. This means that the maglev is actually more efficient at speed than starting out. If, for some reason the maglev were to fail, the train would simply settle down onto the guideway, assuming that the wheels and wheelways used for the takeoff were continued along the length.
As to the appearance and such, I would lean toward a design similar to the TransRapid 8, with a large, flat guideway containing the coils that provide power and propulsion, and it also makes a nice area to land when it comes time to slow down and pick up passengers, provided that rubber tires are used in a manner similar to the Alweg style monorails in seattle. Some would argue for a steel wheel on steel rail, however, rubber wheels provide more cusioning with less suspension than a steel wheel-rail would. Also it keeps with the Transrapid Monorail Maglev style. Power could come from a variety of sources. In stations, to achieve a rapid acceleration, Linear Induction Motors could be used for a rapid take off and rapid stops. Whats more, the energy created in braking one train could be stored by a bank of capacitors, and discharged into the LIM when the train was ready to depart. Elimintating a lot of the energy lost, and improving the effiency of the system. On a two track system, a train pulling into one station could power another leaving, helping to recoup the losses for power generation and transmission.
Another way to power the trains, practical for cruising between stations, is to run a current through the coils that hold the train up, this current provides a forward thrust, and moves the train faster. Indeed, this method may be satisfactory for eliminating the LIMs I described above, if the track can be powered up, and can move trains, then why do you need LIMs? Oh well.
LIMs and guidway powering are really only practical in the city, like the LIRR and it's substations, 750 vdc third rail may be great there, but what will Nevada, IA get? Running third rail, or even catenary across the US will probably never be practiceable, and as such creating enough substations to provide power to all the LIMs would drive the cost of the system through the roof. A better solution is to equip the train with a gas turbine system, either to provide thrust, or electrical power to run an LIM system with the train as the powerplant, or both. This could result in Maglev locomotives, and certainly means that a failure of a certain area will by no means put the whole line out of commission, since a selfpowered maglev could go on without worrying. With a dual mode gas turbine-guideway powered system the maglev can glide in and out of cities and towns silently, and switch on the turbine at the town's edge, where the people are fewer and farther between, and fewer people will complain about the sound.
Now, where to put it? I have heard a lot of people say "In the middle of the interstates," or "along state roads," and think that those are the best two ideas. In fact a group in seattle wishes to do exactly that with a potential Monorail system. Ideally it would be elevated, since that reduces it's vunerablitiy to stupidity, and the elements, alos it doesn't raise the price prohibitively. There are problems with the elevated interstate plan, namely that out east there are roads like the Cross Bronx, the Penna Turnpike and other Robert Moses and Robert Moses wannabe creations that have no room for additional lanes, let alone an elevated guideway for some Maglev in them. Here the only solution is to seek a dedicated ROW, running on it's own, where it must. Perhaps it could use the NEC as an approach to New York from the south, but it may be better to run up the NJTP, since I think that may have the room to accomodate it, with some work. I do have a few reservations about the Elevated Interstate Idea, most of them relating to the apes in steel gas guzzling boxes that share their right of way. How would you react to a train zippin by less than 20 feet overhead at 200+ mph? I actually find that worriesome, since it could lead to disorientation, and possibly accidents. But on the other hand, if people are sitting in traffic where the truck and car lanes come together, and they see a train zip over them, perhaps, just maybe, reason and logic will overcome them and they will abandon their gas guzzler and catch a maglev next time.
I think that's all my brain can handle for now, hope I enlightened you, but if I didn't maybe these will help.
Links:
A Scientific American Article on the Halbach array and it's applications
A similar article from Popular Mechanics also about the Halbach Array, focusing on it's application in rail travel. Shows a retrofitted Acela as a maglev, the last thing we need now.
Transrapid, the company that brought us the German Maglev system, has descriptions of their methods and so on
Lawrence Livermore's page about the Halbach array, and how it works.
The European Rail Server's Pictures of the Transrapid 06, 07 and 08
The Baltimore-WashingtonMaglev system page.
The California Maglev Alliance
That Maglev in Pittsburgh that AEM7 keeps complaining about
How Maglevs will work at howstuffworks.com
How much did the Maglev lobby pay you?
It's great to put forth all those qualitative arguments for Maglev, and about "advancement in technology and all that". Nowhere in here do you make a single mention of costs, or cost-benefit analysis. You talk of "beating the airlines" without really arguing whether airlines actually have a role to play in intercity transportation. To all this I quote a small statistic:
Cost/mile Maglev (from BWMaglev.com) = $58 million per mile
Cost/mile Conventional HSR = $5m/mile ROW + $8m/mile track + signals + catenary = $13m/mile
Yes, there are assumptions built in here about terrain, etc, but you know what? If you were going to build a Maglev across the Allegenhies, you'll get hit with the ROW costs too.
AEM7
From the European Railway Server
Transrapid 08, interior of a 2nd class car. To make the Transrapid an economical means of transport, high numbers of passengers have to fit into short trains, so the train has six-abreast seating like a short-distance jet...
There. Do you prefer the Amfleet II seats, or these seats that even compactly-built EUROPEANS describe as small?
Anything --any ground transportation-- that doesn't beat the airplane at comfort levels is going to be an expensive white elephant. The airplane can always do it cheaper, because their infrastructure basically exist only at nodes.
You left out that to achive such wonderfully high speeds, you need superconduction, which requires refrigeration, which makes the energy costs nearly equal.
-Hank
No NO NO NOOOOOOOOO!
This is a completely new technology called the Halbach Array, ok?
There is no Superconducting material, there is no feed back circuit, and as such there is much less cost. I am quoting from the Scientific American, the link is in my previous post
"Calculations show that by using high-field alloys-neodymium-iron-boron, for example-it is possible to achieve levitating forces on the order of 40 metric tons per square meter with magnet arrays that weigh as little as 800 kilograms per square meter, or one fiftieth of the weight levitated".
So it isn't anything with a superconductor, the bottom of the car is a bunch of "high-field alloys-neodymium-iron-boron" arranged in a Halbach Array. This means that the build time is faster, cheaper and can handle every bit of traffic that a superconducting maglev can handle.
And AEM7, please, give me a friggin break, complaining about the seats??? That is the most superflous reason to hate a maglev. Seats are possibly one of the most changeable things on a train. If you don't like it, change it! All transrapids prior to TR08 used a very wide, almost expansive seating format. I would gather that the Transrapid 08 was used to test a more economical seating format than the previous. If you can afford an Amfleet type seat, great, more power to you, but why should ridership be kept down because there are people who would be willing to settle for a slightly thinner, lower pitched seat (very low vibration, remember!), so long as they get there. Something that Amtrak really seems to need to learn, I would often settle for an comet car if it ran on the back of a metroliner, let those with money pay for their expansive seats.
BTW, here is a photo of TR07, from the European Rail Server, look better than Acela and Amfleet, heck, looks better than First Class on an Airliner!
Link to the Picture, if it doesn't come up.
And AEM7, please, give me a friggin break, complaining about the seats??? That is the most superflous reason to hate a maglev.
I don't think you understood the point of my post, so I shall explain again. You're a techie, so you should understand this quantitative stuff:
(1) Every type of transportation technology has something like a "cost-equation" associated with it. It's not precise, but usually the cost of providing service using a specific technology, as applied to a specific system, can be somehow related to a few fundamental variables, such as:
* Number of nodes (i.e. station stops)
* Length of guideways, if any
* Seats per vehicle
(2) So supposing we look at a simple system consisting of cities A and B linked by one single link of distance X, with S seats in each vehicle for each of the modes considered, we have:
Cost = 2*nodecost + X*guidewaycost + vehfixedcost/S
For the Air mode, "nodecost" is a very high constant (airports are expensive to build and maintain), "guidewaycost" is basically zero (assuming uncongested skies), and "vehfixedcost" is also very high (aeroplanes are expensive).
For the Rail mode, "nodecost" is a low constant, "guidewaycost" is a reasonable number, and "vehfixedcost" is also reasonable.
For the Maglev mode, "nodecost" is a low constant, but "guidewaycost" is very high number, and "vehfixedcost" is also very high.
(3) Now, if you consider the revenue potential available from carrying one passenger on each of the modes, I think you will agree that Air and Maglev have similar revenue generation potential, whilst the Rail mode have a much lower revenue generation potential. But now look at your costs: Rail has the lowest cost, but both Maglev and Air mode have high vehicle costs. The result is that you have to carry a large number of seats per vehicle for the proposition to be viable.
(4) Consider an example. Why did the Concorde not take off as the flight instrument of choice? The reason for that is similar to the argument I just made: the fact is, the additional revenue generation potential of the Concorde is insufficient to cover the additional vehicle costs. By making the seats smaller on the Concorde, the revenue generation potential is lost (i.e. people prefer to sit for 7 hours in a big seat rather than 4 hours in a cramped seat). But by making it the size it is on the Concorde, the revenue generation is insufficient to cover the costs except in very few specialized markets.
Seats are possibly one of the most changeable things on a train. If you don't like it, change it!
Now, if changing the seats makes the operation uneconomic, you wouldn't change it. But if you don't change the seats, people won't ride it, because it has virtually no advantage over the air mode. (i.e. if the journey time is similar, and seats are similar, then the passenger is indifferent as to whether they want to take maglev or the aeroplane). If the costs of maglev are not lower than those of the aeroplane, then no one would ride it. Because of guideway costs, maglev will never be competitve with the aeroplane for long distances. For short distances, if people are indifferent, then why not harvest the economies of scope by sticking with proven aviation technology?
BTW, here is a photo of TR07, from the European Rail Server, look better than Acela and Amfleet, heck, looks better than First Class on an Airliner!
If you make a few assumptions about the width of the walls, from the external dimensions of the vehicle you can actually calculate the seat pitch shown in that photo. I put it between 30" and 34". (I had divided the seat pitch by two because the seats face one another over a table.) The seat pitch on an Amfleet II is 40".
There are good economic reasons why Maglevs won't sell. No point wasting money on some technology that offers no cost savings and merely substitutes an existing product (i.e. an airplane seat).
AEM7
OK, I do get your point, crystal clear.
However, you make such a big deal about the Guideway. I wish to itierate the point that I am NOT talking about any kind of Superconducting, or Feedback respons guideway, I am talking about a concrete prefab prestressed guideway with a bunch of copper coils running along the top. That is the essence of the Halbach Array, and arguably one of it's best selling points. HSR requires ballast, track, ties, bridges (little ones for road crossings), wire, and to top it all off, due to vibration, the Trains are maintenince intensive. Inductrack Maglev on the other hand, merely needs a set of Prefab concrete pillars, spaced every 90 feet or so, perhaps further. But even that is 520 or so per mile, but by the time a HSR cooridor gets around to putting up a catenary, it's costs are already about equal. You'll have to excuse my lack of numbers, but I have not seen a price placed on a Halbach Array Maglev, only heard that it will be "Cheaper than conventional Maglevs"
You seem to be comparing an AEM7 with Amfleets to a Maglev, while a much better comparison would be an Acela, ICE or TGV to a Maglev, since most people seem to see the alternative to a Maglev as Grade separated dedicated ROW HSR. Heck, Acela is bleeding Amtrak dry, and the TGV don't turn a profit, but I don't think the Germans and French care if their rail turns a profit. So those trains must cost a lot, and as such you must accept that your vehfixedcost/S would be much greater than for a simpler AEM7 and Amfleet consist. I would venture to say that the costs of an ACELA and a 737 are not too different, expecially considering the initial prices for those Acelas.
With the halbach array as described above, guideway costs are kept down, since there are no, and i repeat, no superconductors. This drops the X*guidewaycost price of the system, making more comparable to a conventional railway ROW.
I hope I responded to your inquiries adequately. I am at a slight disadvantage, since I am unable to find an adequate cost-equation for the Halbach Maglev, while Railway ROW contruction has documentation dating back 170 years already.
...and to top it all off, due to vibration, the Trains are maintenince intensive...a Halbach Array Maglev, only heard that it will be "Cheaper than conventional Maglevs
OK, this is worth looking at. If the Halbach Maglev is truly maintenance free, then the capital costs may well be outweighed by maintenance savings. The Maglev has one disadvantage -- it does not allow freight railroads to share the guideway, meaning that it can only be applied to really high density corridors where there is enough passenger trains amongst which to spread the guideway depreciation costs.
You seem to be comparing an AEM7 with Amfleets to a Maglev, while a much better comparison would be an Acela, ICE or TGV to a Maglev...
See my previous posts on how much of a waste of time and money conventional very high speed rail (i.e. 150mph+) is. I believe there is a niche for the railroad to occupy between the private auto and the airline. An AEM7 type consist with 125mph-ish infrastructure can offer a genuine product differentiation from driving at 65mph along an interstate highway, yet does not make the cost of the infrastructure prohibitive.
I also thought that AEM7's can be fitted with Maglev-type traction package for use in difficult terrain. The terrain is the main limitation to conventional HSR. Maglevs will eat up 10% grades and stay on very sharp curves, offering superelevation way beyond the 7" allowable on a flangeway. If we can somehow "hold" an AEM7-X to the steel rails in a curve or on a grade, we only need expensive infrastructure where the geography demands it.
I would venture to say that the costs of an ACELA and a 737 are not too different, expecially considering the initial prices for those Acelas.
Acela contract was some $550m for 20 trainsets ($27.5m per trainset). I seem to remember 737's are currently around $50m per vehicle if you are talking about newbuilds. Yes, it's close enough. On the other hand, an updated AEM-7 plus a rake of Amfleets would still set you back some $20m today, I am guessing. Largely depends on the size of the order.
I liked your response. It made interesting brain exercise. Where are you based? If you're looking to get into transportation professionally, we're always looking for people on our programme.
AEM7
Right now I'm down in NJ, just outside philly, a Pre-Frosh at drexel in engineering, hopefully I'll be there for the next five years.
I really like that idea of the AEM-7X, heck, that could very well kill Phils beloved MUs. If a Linear Inductive Motor were mounted on the track with a separate magnet, derived from a maglev to pull the engine closer to the tracks, yielding a greater tractive effort for the light engine's wheels, the train would accelerate at a greater rate. The LIM could be used to just brake the train when it stops, hold the energy in a capacitor, and then discharge it to just give the train that little push to get it going. The Maglev-type thing to increase tractive effort could extend further from the station (or hill as the case may be), to get the train up to the speed where the brute horsepower of the AEM-7 can take over and make up for it's shortcoming elsewhere. This idea is similar to the SERAPHIM system, I think, but that uses monorail trains rather than AEM-7s.
You describe it in terms of hills and turns, but I think of it as a way to reduce the penalty of station stops also. NJTs ALP44s have trouble hauling a trainload up to track speed, their lightweight, high-horsepower bodies mostly result in a lot of sand, or a lot of slipping. Something like what was described above could help them out by just giving them the edge they need to beat out an Arrow set in a drag race.
You said that Maglevs do not allow freight railroads to use their ROW. My first reaction was, "So what? Freight railroads don't use the NEC, and I don't hear them crying about that," but freight could travel by Maglev, if boxcar or flatcar maglev trains were adapted. Perhaps everything on a Maglev could be intermodal, passengers ride in special containers that fit onto flatcars in such a way as to make it appear that they are permamently attached. Freight could be loaded on any number ways, but I see intermodal as having the greatest demand for this High Speed travel. A simple container stuck on the same flat car that was just carrying passengers with a shroud to keep the train aerodynamic would suffice. I don't think coal and grain service would be in great demand on a maglev, since those products are not so time critical, and can be delivered on railroad schedules.
It would be nice to see Maglev, and electrified mainlines break from their "really high density corridors" and get out there to truely compete with the Automobile and Airplane, but sadly I don't think either will happen in any of our lifetimes. Just as an electrified mainline to chicago would be great, a maglev line along the same line would be even better, but sadly, both are about as likely to happen.
Oh well.
Freight railroads DO use the NEC. A lot.
-Hank
but freight could travel by Maglev, if boxcar or flatcar maglev trains were adapted.
The reason why you wouldn't is mainly economic. As it stands, railroad track achieves immense economies of scope: as you said, bulk, intermodal, and passenger traffic all use the same track, so that the capital costs for the track can be divided up amongst those different uses. The moment you go to some specialized infrastructure (e.g. Maglev), because bulk traffic won't want to pay for a share, you will have to recover the capital costs from fewer customers. In really high density areas where freight AND passenger capacity is a problem, I can see why you might want to build a Maglev to take the passengers off the tracks, but in most areas in the U.S. there isn't enough density. In commuter corridors, usually 4-tracking or CBTC with 2-tracks are better options.
Perhaps everything on a Maglev could be intermodal, passengers ride in special containers that fit onto flatcars in such a way as to make it appear that they are permamently attached.
There is a reason why the "pods" they proposed that we could people in and load into bellies of the planes did not catch on... A 747 would be much more efficient at carrying passengers if we used a freight version and just load people into freight pods containing life-support systems. Instead of everyone sitting on the same level and having to waste all the space above and below the bulkhead, we can stack people up, taking advantage of all the space that is available in a 747.
No, it wouldn't sell. I'd certainly not ride a pod, but then I'm rich and spoiled and prefer my Amfleet II seats.
AEM7
There is a reason why the "pods" they proposed that we could people in and load into bellies of the planes did not catch on... A 747 would be much more efficient at carrying passengers if we used a freight version and just load people into freight pods containing life-support systems. Instead of everyone sitting on the same level and having to waste all the space above and below the bulkhead, we can stack people up, taking advantage of all the space that is available in a 747.
Well, actually, that pretty well describes most airlines' coach classes today ...
I'd certainly not ride a pod, but then I'm rich and spoiled and prefer my Amfleet II seats.
Pods *could* work on an airliner, though I'd really not want to use one.
They will not work on a train, where it is important to the passenger to move about... the lounge, the dining car etc.
Elias
"For the Rail mode, "nodecost" is a low constant, "guidewaycost" is a reasonable number, and "vehfixedcost" is also reasonable. "
If we're talking about new high speed lines rather than existing ROW, guidewaycost is an extremely high number for all forms of high speed surface transportation. You have to buldoze vast stretches of suburban territory, or build an elevated ROW on top of an Interstate, or do something else that costs billions of dollars for a few hundred miles.
The French have it much easier than us in this regard, because their inter-city landscape is mostly flat, rural farmland. Ours is mostly suburbs (in the NE) or mountains (in CA) or both.
guidewaycost is an extremely high number for all forms of high speed surface transportation.
Only comparatively. It is true to say that vehicles are free in comparison to guideway in most intercity setting, but if you look at the relative costs of building schtuff, for example, in Ohio Interstates cost about $2m/mile, railroads cost about $2m/mile, maglev will cost about $20m/mile. In West Virginia however, interstates cost $15m-$30m/mile, railroads cost $25m/mile, and I hate to think how much maglev will cost. The only cost saving might come from the fact that maglevs can take a much more direct route due to relaxed engineering constraints.
AEM7
And in the northeast, a new ROW would be at least $100 million/mile.
You'll get a KICK out of THIS sidewalk act ... Our beloved Senate Majority leader, one "Joseph M Bruno" has hatched this little scheme to transport people across the bridge to Smallbany from his train station. Only problem, there's two stops - the Amtrak Station and the Capitol building:
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/arthuraspen.htm
http://www.cybertran.com/
Woohoo! Maglev for da hicks! Heh.
Wow, i didn't even know this site was back up.
anyways, i have a question: Signage on the broadway line says:
N/W either train. All stops. But maps continue to say that W trains run express in queens. My question is does the W still run peak dir. express?
does the W still run peak dir. express?
No - it hasn't for a few months - the express was a failure as it served fewer people than it inconvenienced.
You must have an older version of the map. On my February 2002 map and on most of the wall maps, the W runs local. The December map was the last map to show the W run express in Astoria.
I saw it on maps in trains.
Most trains STILL have the December map, which still shows the WTC (E) station as being closed.
:-) Andrew
which still shows the WTC (E) station as being closed.
As do the timetables @ www.mta.nyc.ny.us
Heh, I've seen trains on the 1 Line with B,D,Q Trains still going over the bridge within the last 2 weeks.
Strip maps or system maps? The system maps in the cars have all, AFAIK, been updated at least twice in the past year (July and December); the strip maps have never been updated. With all the R-62A's moving around, you're as likely to find a 3 strip map as a 1 strip map on the 1, and 6 strip maps aren't uncommon.
or a 5 strip map on the 1
Interesting today I ran into somebody who got off at Canal from a W from Brooklyn, he was confused that this wasn't Grand street and he wanted to go to West 4th from Canal. I told him to go up the local N,R platform or ask the token clerk how to get there. I believe one of the local stations has a stop not too far from W4th st.
In theory W 8 St would be the closest but you have to walk clear across NYU's campus
"go to West 4th from Canal."
Thats easy! take the Uptown N Q R or W to 34 and transfer to downtown F.
Don't forget the V!
Even easier (much less walking), take the SB J/M/Z two stops to Fulton and transfer downstairs to the NB A/C.
The N/R at 8th Street is walkable but it's a few long avenue blocks away.
The quickest way is actually to walk crosstown on Canal to 6th Ave and take the A/C/E from there. 6th and Broadway are much closer at Canal than at 8th. But that's an extra fare.
One other question. Why does the sign on the N/B express Track at 42nd street BMT say W stops here in evenings? The W has to switch tracks for Astoria before 42nd street.
W Trains run only to 57 Street in the evenings.
Ahh, so that explains it.
The clock on subtalk shows 10:37. It's like 10:51 here now. My computer shows 10:56. The Novell server, which runs a time synchonization module, shows 10:52. Is this a NYC/BOS difference?
Lexcie
I think my eyes were squint. I must have glanced at the "last visit began on" line and mistook that for the "page generated" line.
AEM7
Huh??
She means that the times off on daves server.
Here's the situation ... you live near a subway station and everytime a train pulls in, your phone rings.
Some people living adjacent to the 25th Avenue West End Line station have this, er, feature, for real!
--Mark
One up, I'd go for a feature which detects an approaching
redbird train and turns your CAMCORDER ON and propels it
into the RECORD mode... added BONUS! if you can get it
to "make invisible" any Rmadillos which may appear in
the background...
yea some new r-142 or some other transverse cab train caused this!!
Here's a clue:
"....is already on the phone when a train passes, a loud squawk often cuts off her conversation and causes friends to worry about her."
She's using a cordless phone, probably 900 Mhz. Something in the signal system is probably putting out a weak signal. Maybe it's from the display in the mezzanine that tells passengers a train is approaching.
There has been a lot of work done on the West End Line signal system in the past few years so some of this new equipment may be to blame. If the guys from the radio shop sniff around with a spectrum analyzer - or her cordless phone - they'll find the problem.
Like the guys from the radio shop would really know how to use a spectrum analyzer and interpret the display??? Chuck the phone and go to Circuit City for a 2.4 gig DSP handheld. WB2SGT....as in WB2 Subway General Technician (Extra Class.) WE MAKE TRAINS GO. CI Peter
How about the MTA offers that woman $100 for a new phone as an ex gratia payment and quietly bury the matter? If she wants anything more she can go and sleep on the tracks.
Here we walk the fine line between unwarrented interference to a consumers device by a commercial source emitting excessive spurious emmissions in violation of FCC Part 15 or a consumers device not properly shielded from 'out of band' interference per one unit or the entire batch of manufactured handsets. Troubleshooting such situations is probably far beyond the scope of Transit and unless there were multiple complaints filed with the FCC, if it were my decision based upon pratical experience, the situation would NOT be investigated any further and I would purchase the best 2.4 Gig DSP handset for her and be done with the matter. We all know IF we operate radio and television receivers that out computers do emit a myriad of spurious signals...the new tech trainsets do too but ALL control systems reside in heavily sheilded GROUNDED enclosures. Judge Judy grants 100 bucks for the plaintiff. CI Peter, WB2SGT, Extra Class licensee as in WB2 Subway General Technician.
Is anyone going on the Nostalgia Train this Sunday?
I'll be there. As staff.
Peace,
ANDEE
Who can afford it? $30.00 to ride to Coney Island for two hours
and return. >EGH< Some of my favorite streetcars, can use the
financial infusion. Besides for the cost of riding with the Mrs.,
I just added a new book to my library, "New York City Trolleys" in color was just released by Morning Sun Books. May disagree with some of the rhetoric by the author, but the photos of Third Avenue Cars in Manhattan & Bronx, the Queensboro Bridge Line, and for you RT fans, surface operations of the SBK. And of course the piece de resistance of the publication, my beloved Brooklyn & Queens Streetcars. Gawd, I have to get another copy, so I'll have one less the foam. Well worth the $59.95 suggested list for hard cover/full color publication.
How will it get to Coney Island on Sunday. I want to take photos :)
This is A GUESS. Since the train will be leaving from the downtown express track at 59 it HAS to go down 8th Ave. There is no connection from 59 downtown express to 6th Avenue at this time, due to switch replacement. Then it will probably change to the F line at W4, and on to CI. Return is anybodys guess, but it will end up on B'way BMT. I will try to find out more and let you know.
Peace,
ANDEE
Impossible. The connection to the F is from the local track only, and there's no way to get to the local track from the express at 59th without a reverse move. It could switch at Jay, though.
It will switch at J my bet, teh GO will be out for it soon so hold on to your horses.
i call all times of the day but only get a pre-recorded message !!
no live person answeres the phone live !! does this happen to you???
................!!....................!
No, this doesn't happen to me. I don't call all times of the day. As a matter of fact, I don't call at all. Don't you know their slogan? It is "Don't call us, we'll call you."
I'll be there this Sunday.
--Mark
Did anyone notice that boston MBTA subway trains don't use headlights.
I only rode the red line so I don't know about trains on other lines.
What is the reason for this? Can it be that the tunnels are brighter then most NYCTA tunnels?
I had that same question when I first visited Boston. Apparently they use headlights between stations, but dim them when entering a station or approaching an oncoming train to avoid blinding people. (When the headlights are on, they're incredibly bright.) The Red, Blue, and Orange lines follow this practice; the Green Line keeps their headlights on full-time, but those aren't as bright.
I think the practice is a bit strange, and it's very weird to see trains barrelling into a station with only the red tail lights on. It looks like they're going backwards! (That's the real reason I moved back to Chicago, you know.) You'd think they could just do like every other transit system in the world and have less-bright headlights on full-time, but then, this is Boston we're talking about. Sometimes I think they do stuff like that just to piss off people from out of town.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>Sometimes I think they do stuff like that just to piss off people from out of town. <<<
Or, to confound foamers. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, BOS's tunnels are generally brighter because they have more lighting installed. I've always wondered why subway needs lighting at all during the times when trains are running. After all signalling is supposed to keep trains apart.
entering a station or approaching an oncoming train to avoid blinding people.
They also use it to caution pax when the train is about to express past a station. The T/O will leave the headlights on and hoot horns if the train is not stopping at the stop.
AEM7
Headlights are less for you to see what's ahead than they are for what's ahead to see YOU. i.e., the single trackworker walking along, checking bolts; the man on track one avoiding the oncoming train by standing on track two.
-Hank
Do the T/O's have to manually turn them on and off, or is it automatic?
The truly amazing thing is that headlights weren't considered necessary in the NY Subways (IRT, BMT, or IND) until the late 1950s. I'm not sure which were the first cars equipped with headlamps (as opposed to dim white marker lamps), probably the R22 or R26 were the first to come equipped with them from the factory. During the 1960s, older rolling stock (incuding BMT Standards and pre-war IND R-types) had headlights added. My favorite cars, the BMT Triplexes (D-types) never had headlights when they were in revenue service, although the museum cars have them now.
-- Ed Sachs
'Tis Interesting, I was reading a picture book of British Steam Engines, and none of them have headlights on them. And they run out doors and at night.
Elias
The first sealed-beam headlights at NYCTA were delivered on the R22's. The rest of the postwar cars got them very quickly afterwards, and many of the pre-war IND and BMT cars also got them.
Boston seemed to run without any sort of headlights right into the 1970's....from the photos I've seen posted in Usenet by Joe Testagrose. Seems like they ran with the reds on the front of the train at all times on their heavy-rail subway lines.
Ed: I can't vounce for the accuracy of this statement but I recall being told by a now deceased transit worker that the reason for the installation of headlights on subway cars was due to several accidents involving transit workers. Even for all the noise our subway trains make there are places in the tunnels where due to acoustics it is not always possible to hear a train coming.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Anyone know where one can buy NY subway tokens (just the plain old tokens, not token jewelry!)? Looking for 60' or 70's tokens with the cut out 'Y'.
The NY Transit museum used to sell them, at reasonable prices, don't know if they still do. I will try to find out for you. Keep in mind they are far from collectible as over 5M were minted of each type.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 80s tokens that read "Metropolitan Transit Authority" are circulating in BOS. I think people were buying them cheap somewhere and are using them to dodgy T fares. If you buy T tokens, you have a reasonable chance of running across one.
AEM7
I can remember a similar situation with Connecticut Turnpike Tokens
showing up in New York City, prior to the nutmeg state going toll free.
The Tpk tokens were 17 cents each vs the TA $1.25.
;-) Sparky
Hah ... I remember when the Russian penny worked just perfectly in NYC subway turnstiles .... full fare? NYET!!
--Mark
Error?
MTA = Metropolitan Transportation Authority
The tokens that read: "Metropolitan Transit Authority" are from Los Angeles.
The NY MTA has never issued transit tokens on its own.
The NY MTA has never issued transit tokens on its own.
Oh yes they have!
They do still sell them for $1.75 each at the NYTM gift shop.
I left some older tokens with Arnold Joseph about a year before he died; if anyone knows who assumed his stock that party might have some.I might even have some, and a 75th anniversary one, I think a couple Queensboro Bridge Railway ones. If I get any e-mails I can see what I have. I had some real exotic ones now long gone.
Turning the old Poughkeepsie Railroad Bridge into a pedestrian skyway over the Hudson River has become one man's fixation.
--Mark
I dun get it. There are many more railroad bridges out there. Why fight over this one?
AEM7
There are many more railroad bridges out there. Why fight over this one?
1. It's one of only two across the Hudson in the 140 miles between Albany and NYC.
2. It's very high. It's very wide. It offers incredible views.
3. It would connect two communities (Poughkeepsie and Highland) with a bicycle and pedestrian path now sorely lacking in the road bridge just to the south.
4. There are tens of millions of people within a two-hour radius who might come see it.
Want me to go on?
As the article indicates, Bill Sepe is a very well-intentioned man with all the leadership skills of the proverbial bull in a china shop. As you know, Mark, I grew up in the shadow of that bridge, and it is very special to me. Unfortunately, I don't have the financial resources (who does?) to take control of it and carry out the vision for a walkway. I'd like to think that the professional management skills that I have developed over the years would be sufficient to handle that end of it, but even if I did have the time and resources to devote to it the reality of the situation is that Bill has soured even the most ardent supporters of the concept on it, and the damage he has unintentionally inflicted on the cause will take years to undo.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This was posted at a airliners.net forum, which I also contribute to. It's pretty funny and it isn't for the easily offended.
http://www.eco.rug.nl/medewerk/smidbc/graphics/altubemap.jpg
That map is SO inmature. The humour of naughty words went out in 7th grade.
SO inmature
You should find it funny, you sppel like a 7th grader. I have PROFF. Look at your spelling of inmature.
Past experience shows that you should always check for typos in posts flaming other people's typos.
-Hank
Oh no, not another PROFF post!!!
It's wittier and has a greater internal consistency than Simon Patterson's very similar effort, "The Great Bear", which won the Turner Prize (GBP 20,000) at London's Tate Gallery. It may not be as postmodern as that famous work, but IMHO the less postmodernism we have, the better.
The present work engages in a relevant way with both London's history and nomenclature, and with the scatological lingua franca of the metropolis. In both these respects, of course, it does what the sterile postmodernism of Simon Patterson cannot attempt.
Of course it's in bad taste, but so are several of Shakespeare's works.
Good stuff.
Peter
London, England
Anybody have a high-res version of it? My wife's Mac has a tube-map mousepad that she got in London a few years ago, and I have a lot of spare time on my hands (insert evil laugh here). I know I'll get smacked for it eventually, I just want to see how long it takes!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
LOL!!! "Satan's Bumgut" is a good description of Stratford (Middlesex not Warwickshire). And as for Jack the Ripper, if he's in Beckton, no wonder they could never find him in "Shitechapel"! Labelling Richmond "Wombledon" is cruel though - that would mislead people into getting the wrong District Line Train at Earl's Court. "Bus Stop" for Wimbledon is quite apt however. It's a pity this is surrounded by some very bad taste in humour.
Try
http://www.going-underground.net/tubequiz.html
to work out the names of some obscure stations.
funny stuff. good work.
Think someone's working on a similar map for the NYC subway?
Since when does New London have a subway?
Since when does New London have a subway?
Didn't you hear? It was built just after Ulan Batoor.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...!
Oops, sorry. Heh
Does anyone know if these 4 #3 trains in the morning come from 238 or 180?
148 135 96 42 14
— 6:03 6:11 6:18 6:21
— 6:25 6:33 6:39 6:43
— 6:43 6:52 7:02 7:05
— 7:00 7:08 7:15 7:19
Does anyone know if this #3 train in the morning goes to 180 or 238?
14 42 96 135 148
8:50 8:54 9:02 9:10 —
i know there are only two or three #3 trains from 238 in the morning
.the first at about 7:15.and another about 7:45.i know the ones from 180st are all in the 6AM hour.
Amtrak
all trains in the morning from what i heard start service at E180 St. 2 trains in the rush hours the 5:19 and 5:40 from 14st go to 241st and i think T/O on the 5:40 will likely put up a 2 sign in the front so people dont get confused.
The #3 north end AM put-ins from other than Lenox Yard are:
Lv E. 180th Street: 5:45, 6:07-1/2, 6:25-1/2, 6:42-1/2
Lv 241st Street: 7:29, 7:52
No northbound #3 trains terminate anyplace but 148th Street in the morning.
The northbound #3 PM trips that go to places other than 148th Street are:
Lv 14th Street to 241st Street: 5:18, 5:40
Lv 14th Street to E. 180th Street: 11:24-1/2, 11:36-1/2, 11:48-1/2, 12:03 AM next morning
David
The #3 north end AM put-ins from other than Lenox Yard are:
Lv E. 180th Street: 5:45, 6:07-1/2, 6:25-1/2, 6:42-1/2
Lv 241st Street: 7:29, 7:52
----------
Funny, I got those same times when I made up my own #3 southbound schedule from the #2 schedule.
E 238 E 180 149 148 135 96 42 14
St St St St St St St St
— — — 5:02 5:06 5:14 5:20 5:24
— — — 5:18 5:21 5:29 5:36 5:39
— — — 5:31 5:34 5:42 5:49 5:52
— — — 5:49 5:52 6:00 6:07 6:10
— 5:45 6:00 — 6:03 6:11 6:18 6:21
— — — 6:09 6:13 6:22 6:28 6:32
— 6:07 6:21 — 6:25 6:33 6:39 6:43
— — — 6:29 6:33 6:42 6:51 6:54
— 6:25 6:40 — 6:43 6:52 7:02 7:05
— — — 6:46 6:51 7:00 7:09 7:12
— 6:42 6:57 — 7:00 7:08 7:15 7:19
— — — 7:01 7:05 7:14 7:21 7:25
— — — 7:07 7:10 7:21 7:29 7:32
-----------
No northbound #3 trains terminate anyplace but 148th Street in the morning
-----------
Then the schedule maker must have made a mistake on this one then, the 148 Street terminal has no time. Maybe this one goes to Lenox yard instead?
8:50 8:54 9:02 9:10 —
-------
The northbound #3 PM trips that go to places other than 148th Street are:
Lv 14th Street to 241st Street: 5:18, 5:40
Lv 14th Street to E. 180th Street: 11:24-1/2, 11:36-1/2, 11:48-1/2, 12:03 AM next morning
David
-------
Shouldn't all of them have 1/2 by the times since they all go to 180 Street yard?
Oh, I was at 238 Street a few times and I seen #3's terminating at 238 and going into the yard, so the MTA must change their minds on how to operate the #3. Do they become #2 trains southbound, or do they go to the yard?
It's not fair, the #3 can go to 241 and the #5 can't, the #3 should be yard bound as well.
Thanks for the information
do you work for MTA?
"1/2" denotes a half minute...on the timetable, half-minutes are denoted by a "+" sign. Not all trips are going to be scheduled to start, pass through, or terminate at any location on a half-minute.
The trains being observed going into 239th Street Yard might be going there to be washed (Lenox Yard doesn't have a car washer). They're not scheduled moves.
There are only a few #3 trains scheduled to terminate at 241st Street, while the #5 service operates on the upper White Plains Road Line throughout the PM rush (AM, too, but the other way). To whom is it "unfair" (besides, perhaps, railfans) for those few #3 trains to go to 241st Street?
In answer to the last question, yes, I work for NYC Transit.
David
Lexington Ave riders who want to use one train to get from Flatbush/Utica/Bowling Green to 241 Street, while 7th Avenue riders have the #2 and the #3 as one seat rides.
Oh, and that the #5 should get priority over the #3 by having a complete WPR run, that is also what I meant.
Remember, we're talking about TWO trips, here, TWENTY MINUTES APART! I fail to see where this constitutes a huge problem or unfair situation for anybody.
David
Did these trains operate in the Bronx BEFORE September 11?
Do all Bronx bound #3s go to the yard, or do some of them come back southbound as #2s. I seen some southbound r-62 #2s and wonder if any of them could be changed #3 trains
theres only 2 bronx bound (3) trains in the afternoon that go to 238th then head into the yard.i guess those R62A (2) trains were trains that needed to be operated because there were a few 142's that needed repairs so there wasnt enough.and also,NO,the (3) train never went to the bronx before 9/11.since it was 9 cars at the time all trains were easily stored at either the Lenox Yard or at Livonia Yard.
Interesting- were these extra peak directional Bronx 3s implemented after September 11 to give White Plains riders some West Side express service in the wake of the 2 being made all-local? Or was this the case even before then?
Back in December, while riding a downtown 2 from 241st around 6 PM, I saw a couple of 62As pass the other way around Allerton and Freeman. Both were signed as 3s. I figured there must've been some kind of delay further downtown that caused this. Those must've been the 5:18 and 5:40 out of 14th you refer to.
Based on this schedule and my upcoming vacation, I'll have to head to 241st one morning in order to get the 7:29 or 7:52. Likewise, I'll try to get the two PM trains out of 14th. The chance to ride a 62A on the upper White Plains is not to be passed up.
Of course, I'll also make sure to get a 142 on the 5 to see how it does on the former B & W ROW. The couple of times I've gotten 142s on the Lex express (weekend GOs having rerouted the 2 to the East Side), their speed has been very good.
Haven't ridden the Lex the last few weekends, but from what I've read on this board it seems that 142s now outnumber Redbirds on the 5.
Except the White Plains Road #5 which is still mostly Redbirds. The off peak 238 #5 will likely remain a Redbird, because it goes local instead of express (unless they disable the strip map)
A few questions about the MBTA subway
1)Do all trains on the red line have ASC? I assume its the big cabinet blocking the railfan window on the left side.
2) How old are the train cars?
3) What is the MAS?
4) What company makes the announcement systems on those newer red line cars?
5) How is the name of the station ALEWIFE Pronounced? a-le-wife, I hear people say Al-a-wife.
Also why is the Mattapan trolley line called a high speed line? The MAS is 30 MPH.
1)Do all trains on the red line have ASC? I assume its the big cabinet blocking the railfan window on the left side.
ASC? If you mean automatic train control, yes.
2) How old are the train cars?
Look on NYCSubway.org under American Transit Systems
3) What is the MAS?
There are a series of MAS's. The 01800 series will take speed codes 00, 05, 10, 20, 40, 50. The earlier 01500 series will take speed codes 00, 05, 10, 15, 18, 20, 40, 50. Signalling system only use the former set now.
5) How is the name of the station ALEWIFE Pronounced? a-le-wife, I hear people say Al-a-wife.
It's Alewife the fish, pronounced Ale (like the drink) wife (like the female). I personally tend to say Al Wife, thinking of maybe some guy's wife or something.
Also why is the Mattapan trolley line called a high speed line? The MAS is 30 MPH.
MAS of streetcars is 25mph, and it's higher speed than streetcars.
AEM7
It's in a reserved right-of-way, instead of "slow running" on the street.
They are running. I saw 5 trains as follows:
8113-8116 with 8181-8184
8145-8148 with 8141-8144
8137-8140 with 8157-8160
8149-8152 with 8101-8104
8109-8112 with 8133-8136
Please note that the usual disclaimer applies.
That's not really update, there are no new R-143 Cars.
When I post the "update" it is to advise all of the R143 cars that I saw that day. I do not check to see what I posted yesterday or if our webmaster posted the latest. I thought I was doing a service but you seem to misunderstand. I will continue to post updates in this format. If you choose not to read therm be my guest! Others do want this info.
I make the daily post in this way due to concern that "R142/143" cars may be taken off the road.
BTW- yesterday I was up in Stef Land and saw mostly R142 (no numbersd gotten) on the 5 and saw one test train signed up as a 4 Lexington Local to New Lots. I did not get numbers.
Stef Land? Where is that? LOL!
-Stef
The Bronx Of course, just like Train Dude Land is the Concourse Line Shop.
Does that make the ocean off of Deleware Salaamland?
Where, if your not careful, you can catch sallamallah poisoning.
Peace,
ANDEE
Story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-womankilled0708.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dtop%2Dutility
I can't think of how this could happen on MTA or SEPTA or Amtrak -the conductors wouldn't allow it (doors on the wrong side are locked).
I can't think of how this could happen on MTA or SEPTA or Amtrak -the conductors wouldn't allow it (doors on the wrong side are locked).
Not always. and I've seen Amtrak conductors open on the wrong side 3 times over the last few years I traveled on Amtrak.
In any case, why on earth was the woman getting off the wrong side of the train? I tend to think Newsday's reporting is a bit thin here (Trains in France have doors on both sides of the car?!? No way! *rolls eyes*)
There were few details, tis true.
Actually, on MNRR they still have trains with manual doors (ACMUs). The conductors leave the doors on both sides open for the whole trip, since at 125 they could have to open either side and at White Plains they have to open both sides.
LIRR used to leave the doors open from Freeport to Babylon, but only on the platform side.
Well, that was befre the days of M1s and high level paltforms.
Boy I'd love to stand on that bottom step, hanging on to the grab iron as the train rushed into the station. The conductor would usually turn his back rather than watch. He didn't want to deprive a boy of his fun, but neither wanted to be responsible if something did happen. "No sir, I was over in the other car, I didn't see him down there."
Hehehehe.....
Elias
>>> the conductors wouldn't allow it (doors on the wrong side are locked). <<<
Obviously there was some negligence since the off side doors were unlocked. Of course the rabid rail fans on this site believe no railroad should ever be found liable for anything that happens to a passenger.
Since this was a beach stop away from the main station, it may have been so small that it was not obvious to those on the train not in the front coaches which side to get off. The problem might have been compounded if the passenger had been dozing and rushed to get off the train before it started moving again.
Tom
France always has strikes of one sort or another.
I here visiting N . Y .C. and I rode the new R-142 and I think there are great train my son never been to N.Y. said he love the subway his frist train ride was the D train and then the C train EXP. it' great to back in N.Y.
C Train Is One Of The Slowest Locals On The System Next To The G Train
By what measure? From beginning to end, it only takes about ten minutes longer than the A express.
It's a hard local to take, even if it is just psychological. I would much rather be on the express between let's say 59th and 125th. That's a lot of stations skipped! It may just be psychological, as it's probably true, as you say, that the savings is only 10 minutes, but the express is very useful, as long as you don't need one of the local stations.
You're welcome to take whichever train you want, but if you're going from 59th to 125th, your best bet is probably to take whatever comes first (especially if you just missed an express). Certainly in this weather -- why stand on a hot platform for five minutes so you can spend three fewer minutes riding?
A few weeks ago, I was waiting at Jay for an A/C to take me to 34th. An announcement came over the PA: a C was approaching, and an A was one stop away. I decided to wait for the A -- between the two stops skipped and the possibility of the C being delayed because of an E crossing in front of it (it hadn't occurred to me that the A would be stuck behind the delayed C), I figured I'd probably get to 34th sooner. So I passed up a C with lots of seats and got on an SRO A (not crowded, but no empty seats, at least no useful ones). The C wasn't delayed because of an E, but we were -- we were held at Canal for a connection. (Why would anyone want to transfer from the E to the A at Canal? We were probably held for scheduling reasons, actually.) Then there was a door holding problem at 14th. By the time we got to 34th, the E was pulling out, and the C was probably at 59th if not beyond.
And you have to consider that often the A goes Missing in Action. I recall quite a few times about 6 or 7PM that I waited at least 15 minutes for an A at 59th (and I didn't just miss one). And above 125, I really believe the C is just as fast. I know the A crawls between 125 and 145, I often see an A and C leave 125 at the same time, the C usually gets to 145 first.
Well my most recent experience with the A & C, was at the conclusion
of the June ERA meeting. Boarded at Chambers, walked down and hustled
to the "C" to get the railfan window for the Cranberry Tunnel
and trip to Hoyt/Schemerhorn for the transfer to the "G" [GG].
While waiting for the connector, this was 2045 hours, an "A" & "C"
rolled eastbound, followed by a new "Not In Service" R-143 eight car
train bound for Pitkin Yards. And it was less then 10 minutes before
my "GG" arrived to whisk me home. [That was a "C", "A", "C" & a R143
yard move in ten minutes on a Friday Night. Gotta Love New York].
;-) Sparky
>>> It may just be psychological, as it's probably true, as you say, that the savings is only 10 minutes <<<
Why do so many on this board denigrate a ten minute time savings? If you ride both ways five days a week, that is more than 1 1/2 hours a week. If the local takes 20 minutes and the express 10 minutes, it is a 50% savings on the travel time. The savings should not be looked at as a gross number but as a percentage reduction of time of the same local service.
Tom
I actually agree with that. I am one of those people that will run to the express. It's just my nature, I can't help it. Sometimes I do fall into the situation that David G. mentioned, but I just like expresses, even if it only saves me a minute or two (or costs me a minute or two). In the end, the express may cost you some time in the end sometimes, but if you average it out over many trips, the express will leeave you ahead.
Wouldn't that depend entirely on where you're going? For many trips, if you're in a rush, the way to get to your destination soonest on average is to take whichever train pulls in first, be it express or local.
If you like expresses, fine -- again, no one's stopping you from waiting for them. But when the question is how to reach your destination most quickly, or how to design a service pattern for the whole system, that preference of yours is irrelevant.
Well, maybe that's one of my faults. If I was in a hurry, and I had to go from Brooklyn Bridge to let's say 51st, I would still probably grab the express to Grand Central and grab the 6 there, instead of riding the 6 all the way up. Stupid or smart. I agree though, in some cases it would be smarter to take the local, but tell that to me when I wait for the 4 or 5 at Brooklyn Bridge, as the 6 pulls out.......
And you're far from alone. At least in that case there's a reasonable chance of the express passing two locals. What about all the people at Roosevelt who will simply refuse to board a V, even if they've just missed an E and there's a V waiting for them across the platform? Chances are the V will get them to Lex sooner, but the idea doesn't even occur to them.
I'd say there are three categories of people who let locals go and wait for the express. There are the people who really do get where they're going faster that way -- fine. There are the people, like you, who don't really care when they get where they're going but prefer the express anyway -- fine. But there are also lots of people who think the express is much slower than it actually is, and wait for an express even when the local might get them where they're going sooner.
Have you ever transferred from an express to a local because you thought the local would move faster? I once did. It was a Sunday evening and I was standing on a crowded NB A, going to 59th. At 42nd we pulled in across from a mostly empty C. It occurred to me that, between the inevitable door holding on the crowded A and the possibility of getting stuck behind a D at 59th, the C might well get there sooner. Seeing as there's little I find pleasant than being trapped, even for only a minute, on a stationary R-44 between stations, I opted for the C. Indeed, when the C got to 59th, a D was waiting across the platform for the connection!
And by the way, often in the morning rush, the local is as fast as, or faster than, the express from GCT to 14th.
And you're far from alone. At least in that case there's a reasonable chance of the express passing two locals.
Yeah, and I used the Lex example because the express will usually pass a local or two. But you are right. There is no reason to not use the V. And most other lines, at least the trunk lines in midtown, it doesn't matter if you take a local or express. On Broadway, I will usually take whatever is in the station if I am in an express station, because the savings for the express is minimal, but will usually take the express if there is a choice. The same for 8th AVe, and especially for 6th, as the local is basically the same as the express. I think the whole reason for the express/local service in Midtown is mostly just to increase the tph on the trunks, as opposed to time savings. And as long as you are going to build four tracks, two might as well be express.
Where I think the express is really better is on the Lex, and possibly CPW, maybe Brighton, and peak direction on lines such as the White Plains Line. Queens Blvd works as long as you are going to where the express is going, such as taking the E because you are going to 8th Ave.
You might be interested in the approximate express time savings I worked out from the posted timetables a few months ago:
IRT
96 - Chambers: 8 min; Nevins - Utica: 3 min; 125 - Brooklyn Bridge: 9 min; E180 - 149-GC: 4 min; Parkchester - 3/138: 1 min; Main - QbP: 6 min.
IND
168 - 145: 2 min; 145 - 59: 3 min; 59 - Canal: 1 min; Hoyt - Euclid: 4 min; Bedford Park - 145: 7 min; Continental - QP: 7 min; Union - Continental: 1 min; 34 - W4: not in current schedules and I was too lazy to look it up in an old schedule.
BMT
Myrtle - Marcy: 1 min; 57 - Canal: 5 min; Canal - DeKalb (bridge): 7 min; Pacific - 36: 3 min; 36 - 59: 1 min; Brighton Beach - Prospect Park: 5 min.
I think that covers all the express service currently operating.
Thanks for posting that, that actually is very interesting. It's kind of what I expected though:
The Lex Line is a descent savings, as is Queens Blvd, for the most part, and both were what I expected. However, I feel the "non-V riders" are fools though, as if I were a regular rider, I would probably want a seat if I can get it. I think the Lex line is a win-win situation for both the express riders and the local riders. You save enough on the express to make it worth-while, and the 6 train runs frequent, if you are a local station rider. The 6 is one of the best run lines in the system I feel (or at least the least frustrating if you are a regular user).
There were a few surprises though, both ways:
The Broadway-7th Ave line's express is faster than I thought.
Actually, also the Broadway line I thought you would save less than 5 minutes, so it was faster than I thought.
The CPW express run is much slower vs. the local than I expected.
And the White Plains line, and 7 line's expresses were slower than I expected.
All the others were about what I expected.
Keep in mind that all of this is according to the posted timetables. If either the local or the express often runs either behind or ahead of schedule, my numbers are off. Also, the running times listed in the timetables aren't constant; to come up with my figures, I've glanced at a few running times and taken a rough average.
No, I do understand that. But it's a good estimate anyway. Of course all kinds of conditions may come up to change that.
I did put the CPW number to the test. I was on the NB platform at 59th when a C and a D pulled in at the same time. I got on the D, rode to 145th, went upstairs, and waited for the C. The time elapsed from when the doors opened on the D to when the doors opened on the C was just under 3 minutes. (Of course, that was only one trial. Regular riders on the line are welcome to repeat the experiment when the opportunity presents itself if they have a few minutes to spare.)
>>> You might be interested in the approximate express time savings I worked out from the posted timetables a few months ago: <<<
Again, these figures would be much more meaningful if we knew the local times on each of these runs so we could see the per cent of time saved on the express.
Tom
I agree. Maybe some day I'll work out those numbers. You can do it yourself, if you're interested -- all the information's right here. (I doubt you'll find any ratios approaching 50%, I'm afraid.)
Why do so many on this board denigrate a ten minute time savings?
Who's denigrating anything? Someone claimed that "C Train Is One Of The Slowest Locals On The System" and I challenged that claim. There are slower locals and there are faster expresses. Nobody called for the elimination of the A train.
If you ride both ways five days a week, that is more than 1 1/2 hours a week.
How many people do you know who commute both ways, five days a week, from Euclid (near the Brooklyn-Queens line) to 168th (in upper Manhattan)? Is there anything stopping them from taking the A?
If the local takes 20 minutes and the express 10 minutes, it is a 50% savings on the travel time.
Scheduled running time on the C local between terminals is about 64 minutes. Scheduled running time on the A express between those same points is about 54 minutes. That's a 16% savings on the travel time, not taking into account the wait for the train.
The savings should not be looked at as a gross number but as a percentage reduction of time of the same local service.
Waiting time should also be included in the analysis, including the waiting time of those at or bound for local stops. On shorter trips (i.e., the ones that cost the passenger more per mile), waiting time often exceeds riding time.
it is only 10 longer minutes if you go from 168th to euclid, which not many people do
so why not combine the C with the Eastern division routes[J/M/Z],cut travel time between ENY and midtown,create an H/K service to cover the local stops in brooklyn or make the A LEFERTS local? or run the V LOCAL from Houston st to Euclid?
I don't know about the (C), but I find that the (G) isn't really that slow. In fact, in its solo run south of Queens Plaza it's about as fast as a local ever gets. The only thing that makes it slow is the wait for it. It is quite an infrequent route.
For "slowest locals" I nominate the (L), the (R), and the (J) when the (Z) isn't running.
:-) Andrew
I think the L is actually quite fast, it rounds curves fast and flies through its tube. It does not have as many stops as the map makes it look like it has, it has 5 stops in Manhattan and 19 stops in Brooklyn. A line with only 24 stops end to end cannot be that slow and the stops are close together.
The G and C are annoying and infrequent, I agree.
The R is pretty good, I think it is more on schedule lately than it has been in the past few years, I find it to be more dependable, and I think it does its job.
I've never ridden the full stretch on the J but by the map and some BAHN layouts I have, it sure seems long and boring.
The J is long & slow, but hardly boring.
What about the (A) "against the wall" on the midnight tour?
Yikes. From Mott Ave to 207th St in what, 2 and a half hours?
It's not quite that bad.
The (A) leaving 207 St. on Saturday at 1:09am arrives at Mott Ave. at 2:54am. An hour and 45 minutes; 58 stations including termini.
Wow, only 10 more minutes than it took the D to get from 205th St to Coney Island, running local in the Bronx.
Wow, only 10 more minutes than it took the D to get from 205th St to Coney Island, running local in the Bronx.
And only 10 more minutes than it takes the A when it runs express.
The R is pretty good, I think it is more on schedule lately than it has been in the past few years, I find it to be more dependable, and I think it does its job.
The N/R in Manhattan below Canal St is painfully slow, even when compared to the normally slow speed of NYC subway trains in general. I rarely ride it into Brooklyn, but I seem to remember that the ride in the tunnel between Manhattan and Brooklyn was none too fast either, at least compared to the other lines, and I thought it was pretty slow in Downtown Brooklyn. But then, maybe it was just my bad luck.
The problem with the N/R, I feel is not so much that they are so slow, but that the wait time at stations seems longer. I don't know if they have less tph than some other lines, but I always seem to wait long for the N or R. That may be why the Broadway line seems so frustrating below Canal Street.
The curves and turns down there are crazy! Ever peered through the front of an R46 R Train heading north out of Cortlandt?
I totally agree. The N is terrible...it feels like it takes hours to get from canal to kings H'way.
Well, if your son is my grandson's age ... 4th grade, then he'll love the Hippo's (R-68) even more (off hours). Because they make a great jungle jim.
Seriously, the front window of the Slant 40's are a kids best friend, i.e. room for dad & junior to see ahead.
Mr rt__:^)
I'm looking to schedule a railfanning trip to NYC for SF grand reopening. What's the latest grand opening date being discussed around here? Think there will be any sort of ceremony?
>>What's the latest grand opening date being discussed around here? Think there will be any sort of ceremony?<<
They have to finish the Greenwich St subway rebuilding at Ground Zero first. It will possibly open this November, but be patient because you'll probably hear about it here first.
Bill "Newkirk"
The correct answer is 'Before Election Day' so the incumbants can all pose at the ribbon cutting.
-Hank
I love having effective incentives to get the subway finished.
Last I heard, the Greenwich reconstruction to South Ferry was ahead of schedule and could be done as early as the end of September. That's the last I heard, but that was about a month ago. I don't know if they are still ahead of schedule. A good guess would be October, give or take a month.
The $1 million per-day project was scheduled to be completed in November, but now the project is two months ahead of schedule. Look for it to re-open on or around 9/30/02, and at that time, all service will go back to normal too. -Nick
From what I heard South Ferry and Rector street is suppose to be open by September 30, yet the MTA is trying to make a September 11 deadline.
If it is at all possible, which it seems to be, it would be a very fitting day for it to be reopened on September 11th. It would fit in nicely with all the ceremonies that are bound to occur that day. It's getting close. It's amazing that it's almost a year now. It started out as such a beautiful day. I will never forget what I was doing at the time when I first heard that the plane hit, and the rest is history.
hey you guys, im going to 347 madison avenue on july 17. as you all know, im not sure if i told you, but i got a response, and if all goes well, this interview can lead me to a trackworker position with the Metro North Railroad. anyways the interview is the 17, and the best way would be the F to 42nd street right? Anyways they claim the physical exam is hard because they gonna have u doing parts of the job, but i doubt it. this is the main building, so i dont think they will have u working on live rails just yet. so this exam should be easy right? thanks guys.
Take any train to GCT. Go through the passageway to the west (where the TA Museum is), then north along the platform gates. You enter a narrow passageway, which has a tennis racket shop and a watch stand. You come out inside the lobby of the MTA building on Madison.
-Hank
In reference to this post, anyone know if that set of Slants saw service on the M?
I have a pic of one....I will E-Mail it you
I thought I could pick up your E-Mail address..If you want a photo of an R-40 on the 'M' let me know
I'd like to see a photo if it's not too much trouble.
Thanks
If I approach the average station booth clerk and ask him if I can take down and keep the expired Service Notice hanging on the wall of the station, is there any reason why he would say "no?" Like do those HAVE to be thrown away or something? Or will the agent say I can have it? Thanks for your help.
I see no problem but then I dont speak for all.
If it's expired, I'd just go "borrow" it long term. But I'd do it fast quick and swift.
I mean do you think the agent will think I am a terrorist or some crazy person for asking or will they be cool about it? I guess I'll just have to try it. I'd hate to see all those "nice" 1/2/3 GO posters from this Sunday go to waste...so many already have :(
And by "nice" I mean "totally messed up and makes no sense"
In my opinion, a customer taking down notices does not make me think they are a bad person trying to hurt someone.
I have seen people taking down current notices and that is when I challenge them and put the notices back up. Expired notices are to be removed and if you take them down it saves my time.
You could simply print the PDF files from the MTA web site; wouldn't that be the same?
--Mark
I could. But there's nothing like the real thing...you know, that extra heavy paper stock they print on. Plus I'd have to use up my own ink. Although I do have a bunch of free or almost-free-after-rebate printers, they're not here in NYC with me. BUT, I could print out a bunch of the PDF's at work....hmmmm. Of course I would hang them up in my cubicle at work. So it would be work related.
That would make some interesting wallpaper ... an entire wall of GO notices :)
--Mark
I basically did just that in my dorm room last semester. I had 10 GO notices plus some other posters I found in the stations. I had them all up on one wall. Looked really cool. In fact, here is a photo of this. Oh yeah, in the photo one of the GO notices has fallen over and is covering the one below it so you only see 8 of them but there really are 10.
kewl! I should hang up my strip map of the S (63st/6ave) train.
Oh, you took the other one? I claimed mine on December 16, only to find an even more outdated B strip map underneath (but behind plastic, so I couldn't take it too).
Thanks. Ya, you should. Everyone will think you are cool. Ok, they won't, but I think I'm cool for taking them and hanging them up.
Today was the day I headed down to Jay street with my defective RFM. I handed my slip to the token clerk in Flushing and they opened the door. It definately felt weird, as I always go through the turnstyle. Had a fast R62A ride to Grand Central, where I just missed a 4 but caught a Redbird 5. After some congestion in Manhattan, we flew through the Jorelemon tube. The speed those birds get in there can be frightening!
Got off at Borough Hall and walked a few blocks over the Jay street. 370 Jay seems to be a major NYCT office building, but they are also at Livingston st. I guess NYCT has two main offices.
I went into the service center where I had a short wait (only 10 minutes) and they filled out a form with my name and address. They will mail me a new card, but in the meantime they gave me a temporary one. They also asked me how much time was left since the last refill on the RFM.
For now I had to put time on the temp card, so I went down into the IND station which is right there. The MVM's don't allow refills on temp cards so I had to add time at the token booth.
After one "please swipe again" message at the turnstyle I finally saw the magic word "go".
All in all things went pretty well, I'm glad they gave me a temp RFM so I didn't have to get a full fare card.
In other notable rides today, going from Chinatown on the Q uptown was fast, this was a circle Q but this R68 really flew.
Going back in late afternoon I had yet another R62A 7 express train. The Redbirds are sure starting to flock away, I'm seeing alot of R62A on the 7. I better get that railfan window view while it lasts.
Another fast ride, with frightening speed between Woodside and Junction.
Weather was nicer today, still abit hazy and warmer, but the humidity still was low, that is until I got back to the "jungle".
At least we'll get to keep the railfan window with the silverbirds, as well as *eleven* AC cars.
How do you qualify for a Reduced-Fare Metrocard? Are you a student?
- Lyle Goldman
>>> How do you qualify for a Reduced-Fare Metrocard? <<<
A pretty nosey question. He is disabled.
Tom
To qualify you have to be either a senior citizen or disabled.
Glad all went well. BYW- S/As are allowed to add time and money to temporary RFMs. A holder of a RFM can have up to two time periods (weeks or months) at a time and can mix time and money. If hjave have both it will take the one that is started and when completed roll to the other--if you havce a week started it will finish the week and then use the money you added. If you just added a week, it will use the week first anmd then the money. Ifv you add a second time period, iut will use ythe first one (no evidence shown of the second)until the first is used up and then "like magic" the second period will show up. In the boothj we will know because oru scr een will add the word 'Rolling" or "Renewed" (I have seen both.)
Hang on to your Temprary card! If you lose it you are out of luck. If damaged, show it to the S/A after you buy a full fare and ask for the return trip. Yerah, you'd pay $1,50 to enter but return free.
Yeah on my regular RFM I'd add a weekly a few days before the week ran out. Actually on the buses, if you have added a week before the old week expires it says R on the farebox next to the expiration date.
As usual I take good care of my cards. store them in a seperate place from other cards in my wallet. Now that I have an MC holder I use that, probably provides better protection than the ol' wallet.
Sorry about that prior message (or lack thereof). I did type in a message but it didn't appear. Not sure what happened. Anyway, I'm wondering where to buy NYC subway tokens (not jewelery made from tokens!) from the 60s and 70s with the 'Y' cut out. Thanks to all who replied previously to my obtuse posting.
They appear on eBay once in a while - also the NYC Transit museum sells framed sets
I saw a bowl of them at the Transit Museum gift shop in Grand Central yesterday. Catch the "Elevated City" exhibit while you're there.
Bill "Newkirk"
I noticed on the plaza in front of the terminal large plywood partitions painted blue. Those blue partitions mean MTA to me. They would be where I believe there were air grates.
Now on the other side of of the (1)(9) entrance by Battery Park, there is another set of blue plywood partitions across from where the cars wait on line for the ferry. About twenty uyears ago, I photographed what looked like a closed up subway entrance that was removed years later and sealed.
Does anyone know if that closed entrance was for the South Ferry station ? With the rebuilding of the Greenwich St subway at Ground Zero, I understand there is upgrading of Rector St and maybe even South Ferry. Any concrete details and not heresay.
Bill "Newkirk"
Definitely according to the news reports nothing major is happening at South Ferry or Rector St. this year. However, there could easily be minor work not reported in the papers, such as reactivating an entrance.
They are also putting in a track crossover south of Rector St., but that would be further north.
There was a switch south of Rector pre 9/11
There is indeed. I thought so, but I needed to check the book to be sure. it's a single crossover, trailing point from the southbound to the northbound. Southbound train must pass over it and reverse to cross.
-Hank
Yes, I strongly believe that there is a "stairway slabbed over" type of entrance to the South Ferry inner platform located northwest of the current entrance. It was just west of the roadway curb line.
>>Yes, I strongly believe that there is a "stairway slabbed over" type of entrance to the South Ferry inner platform located northwest of the current entrance. It was just west of the roadway curb line.<<
I don't think that slabbed over entrance would be for the inner loop. There are no plans to reuse that station.
The center of the platform where the current exit/entrance is may have a corridor for that Battery Park entrance. I would love to see a blueprint of South Ferry showing everything as originally built and the relation to the South ferry "el" terminal that was upstairs.
You have to admit, with the present setup, there are the crowds coming off the ferry fighting the crowd who just got off a train. A lot of mayhem with two staircases and a few turnstiles. We'll find out by November what's cooking.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with, but I'm saying this slabbed over entrance has been slabbed over for a long time and it leads to stairs that end on the inner platform. It was probably used at some point when the inner platform was open.
I agree. I took a picture back in the mid-1970's when there was still the entrance marker (or whatever the small structure around the staircase marking the entrance is called - too small to be a full kiosk) was still standing even though the staircase was slabbed over.
I will have to look for the photo but IIRC it said Lexington Avenue Subway on the sign.
Just how long it was slabbed over I do not know because for the couple of years that I used the BG/SF shuttle you entered the inner loop to the left of the Token booth (they had one or two turnstiles).
I dug up the photograph which I took sometime in 1979 (sorry, I don't have a scanner but I will do what I can).
The sign reads:
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT SYSTEM
IRT LEX-4TH AVE. EAST SIDE LINE
SHUTTLE TO BOLWING GREEN STA
SATURDAYS FROM AM TO AM
SUNDAYS " AM TO AM
OTHER DAYS " AM TO PM
OTHER TIMES LEX-4TH AVE TRAINS DEPART FROM THE B'WY 7TH AVE STATION TO THE EAST
Actually the sign read: SUNDAYS & HOLIDAYS but the & HOLIDAYS was painted over in white and the " put there instead.
>>I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with, but I'm saying this slabbed over entrance has been slabbed over for a long time and it leads to stairs that end on the inner platform. It was probably used at some point when the inner platform was open.<<
Sorry for not being clear, but I meant to say if that slabbed over entrance is being reopened for reuse again, it would have to be for use of the outer loop. I'm curious how this is going to turn our when the 1/9 line reopens. Perhaps a handicapped elevator ?
Bill "Newkirk"
If it is re opened, it might just be for construction and company purposes, and not as a passenger enterance at all.
Leastwise, *that* is my guess...
Elais
>>> I would love to see a blueprint of South Ferry showing everything as originally built and the relation to the South ferry "el" terminal that was upstairs. <<<
The two subway stations were where they are today and they were not connected physically with the el station, but underneath it. The subway stations had separate stairways to each platform with no interconnection between them. In effect there were three separate rapid transit stations which serviced South Ferry.
The el station had an entry from the platform to the second floor of the ferry building, so passengers transferring between the el and the ferry would enter the terminal on the second floor and board the ferries on the upper deck. Before the demise of the 9th, 6th, and 2nd Avenue els, most of the ferry traffic was through the el station. The subway stations were relatively minor.
Tom
At the time, Water Street was still narrow and ended on State Street, which in turn ended on South Street instead of curving and becoming Water at Whitehall (the old path of State is Peter Minuit Plaza now). In addition, this was before all of the superblocks on Water Street like New York Plaza, so Front Street also went all the way down to State Street.
On what streets did the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Av Els run in Downtown?
That info is actually (barely) available on this site.
See http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/bigirtmap.jpg.
The writing is barely legible, but the 9th Ave went down Greenwich St, the 6th Ave down Church St, and the 2nd and 3rd Ave down Pearl St (may have been Water St below Fulton, since Pearl St becomes incredibly narrow).
No it was Pearl -- Water was just as narrow south of Fulton until being widened in the 1950s. But it did travel on Water briefly
The el went down St. James Pl. from Chatam Square to where it merged with Pearl south of Madison St., and then down Pearl to Hanover Square. Then it made an 'S' curve from Pearl onto Water, and from there south to the South Ferry terminal.
That's amazing. Pearl St. below Fulton is barely wide enough for 2 cars.
Amazing but true.
Someone at where I work gave me some old photos from the 1940's and you can see that the structure did fit along Pearl St. It was not a tight fit as there was some space betwenn the El and the buildings on either side.
2nd:
At 23rd, it turned away from Second onto First, then continued down Allen and Division to Chatham Square
3rd:
Went down Bowery to Chatham Square. From Chatham Square, two branches: One went down Park Row (originally Chatham Street) to City Hall, the other went down New Bowery (St. James Place after 1943), Pearl Street, Coenties Slip and Front Street. Water south of Fulton and Pearl north of Fulton being wide is a recent innovation, they were narrow until the 1960s. Front Street is demapped south of Old Slip now, but it used to go to State Street, which instead of turning and becoming Water at Whitehall, would stay along its path (along the current Peter Minuit Plaza) to South Street. The el would turn onto this State Street and run to South Street.
6th:
6th ended on Carmine Street, so the el turned onto West 3rd to West Broadway, then onto Warren to Church. It then merged with the 9th where Trinity Place hits Greenwich Street
9th: Greenwich, Battery Place, State.
CORRECTION: Not Warren, but Murray.
Here is a street map that shows the els as they were in 1902.
Strange for 1902 - it shows the Broadway, Lexington, Fulton, Fifth and Park Ave. Els in Brooklyn but the Myrtle El is missing east of Grand. Must be a mistake. Also, wasn't the Park Ave. El gone by 1902?
They must have been working from old plates and didn't bother changing anything on the Brooklyn side.
I also believe the map is actually older than the date on it.
I vaguely recall there being exits at both ends of the inner loop when I rode the shuttle with my parents back in the mid-1960s, though I don't think the Battery Park exit was being used even at that time. The only access was from the north stairway at the current South Ferry station.
A G.O. started yesterday that has the 5 going from B loop to A loop and back to B, plus the work being done on the shuttle platform at B.G. makes you wonder.
I guess I should have gone down to the platform last week and seen for myself. The doors to the station and the service gate were wide open.
The last time I was at the inner loop duirng a Transit Museum trip a lot of the platform was walled off to create offices and storage areas.
It makes you wonder what it is all about. Hopefully someone will find out.
Creating a new entry to those offices while the entry from the token boooth area is renovated as part of the reconstruction of the Whitehall St Terminal?
-Hank
After taking a sleepy ride on the ferry over to Staten Island, the next thing for me to do was to take an even sleepier ride out to Tottenville. Damn I miss those old steel cars !
At Tottenville I noticed on the south motor of my train, an official Staten Island Yankees logo in the sign box. Seems like it was added on to the roll sign. Has anyone seen it this sign yet ?
Also, for the few times I ride Staten Island Railway, I never seem to catch a ride on the Ex- NYCYA R-44's. You can tell the original SIRTOA R-44's from the NYCTA ones. The SIRTOA ones have dings from ballast rocks hurled by local vandals.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, they fenced in the ROW pretty well since 1991. But I bet if you took a look at the roofs of the cars, you'd see all sorts of dents, dings, and paint stains.
And why didn't you tell me you were coming out to Tottenville?
-Hank
>>And why didn't you tell me you were coming out to Tottenville?
-Hank<<
It was a spur of the moment thing. It wasn't on my agenda earlier in the week. Maybe next time I'm out there, we'll ride one of those Ballpark specials bypassing St.George.
Bill "Newkirk"
That is the Ball Park Special that skips St. George. Runs local from Tottenville and onto the Wye lead out to the Ballpark.
I don't know if the Ball Park Shuttle (St.George to the Ballpark) displays that sign since I only have ridden the special.
The MTH R-36s have fallen victim to the normal MTH delivery delay. According to the MTH website, tonight, the R-36s are slated to be delivered on 8/15/02.
Also added to the NYCT MTH roster will be a crane car and crane car tender.
Why...why...why....I'm shocked!!!
Whaaat!!! I am really surprised at this.
This must be the very first time MTH has delayed delivery of a new item! :-)
Really, the thread about the Philadelphia photographers has now deteriorated into a back-and-forth about the 2000 elections. Some off-topic stuff is okay, but I don't imagine that Dave wants to see all this.
Thank you, I agree with you.
Bill "Newkirk"
You're quite right. Let's talk about the 2004 elections instead.
E_DOG
Let's not. We don't need any more misery.
Ok, I know that the R-44, and R-46 are not compatible with each other, or anything else in the system for that matter. I know that they can be linked to each other, but just steel to steel. Just curious about a few things. First, why if they made them incompatible with everything else, why not compatible with each other? Second, prior to GOH the couplers had large boxes on each side of it horizontally. The boxes on the R-44 were strikingly different in appearance than the ones on the R-46. After GOH, these boxes were removed on both models. Now there is a little tube looking device with a little metal tongue below the coupler on both models. I am assuming this is for the digital signs. Can somebody please tell me what the original devices were for, and the difference between the two models. After all the State Of The Art Control crap was removed, why are they still incompatible. Why were they not made to be compatible after GOH, and was it reasonably possible.
The device you describe at the bottom of the coupler is the
electric portion, which carries the trainline electrical circuits
across the coupling. On the older H2C heads, the electric portion
is also at the bottom of the coupler, covered by a flat metal plate.
When coupled, the cover plate automatically retracts exposing the
pins. Pre-GOH, the R44 and R46 had different electric portions
which were side-mounted and exposed. Placing the portions on the
extreme outside of the coupling subjected them to greater deflection
stress than if they were placed under the coupling, leading to
numerous intermittent bad contact problems. This was the reason
for replacing and relocating the portions during GOH.
The two fleets are compatible with each other, however the brake
package on the R44 was converted before GOH and is now an orphan.
For whatever reason, the R44 brake system omits the feed (pressure
regulating) valve at the motorman's stand. I believe if the
two types of cars were to be mixed, this would cause the R46
cars to take excessive brake pressure in emergency and slide.
However, I am not certain on that last point.
>>I know that they can be linked to each other, but just steel to steel.<<
For your info, an old term for that is "iron hitch".
Bill "Newkirk"
It was not to be a normal night for me, as a passenger, on my way home from another day as a T/O in the "A" division.
At 10:45pm, I was waiting for a n/b R train at Lexington Ave., when a very loud work train entered on the s/b track. Immediately, I noticed "the TSS from Continental", as I refer to him, standing at the front end of a flat, with a serious look on his face, and his once white shirt, now black.
As the train continued, several slant 40's came into view. There were hooked up to the work train. As the first car passed me, car # 4246, I saw that there were passengers on board the train. Then the train made a station stop at the 10-car station stop sign, allowing passengers to detrain. I asked an RCI about what was going on, and he told me that the passenger train rescued the work train.
At that point, I tuned-in to B1 on my radio, to hear someone say, "Nancy at 49th, close down and proceed", and realized it was going to be a long wait for an R train. So I hopped on a s/b 6 to transfer to the E or V train, and made my way home from there.
That must have been one really interesting sight. Damn, wish I could have been there to see it.
It was fun seeing the different expressions on the faces of passengers, as they ran off the train at Lexington.
The FRA required some conditions and available "collateral" for the $100 million loan.
Amtrak management is required to significantly improve financial controls and accounting transparency, including all revenue and expenses associated with rail operations by route, and budgeted/actual expenditures for all capital investments.
The carrier "must provide its monthly performance report to the board of directors, DOT and Congress," and the same details and reports on financial performance that it makes available to Amtrak management at the same time as it provides these details and reports on financial performance that it makes available to Amtrak management, for the remainder of fiscal 2002.
The railroad can spend Amtrak funds only on existing plant and services - no expansions. Except where written permission from DOT is obtained, Amtrak will suspend use of any of its funds for actual expansion or planning of expansion of rail service, including high-speed Rail, through fiscal 2003.
All management salaries are frozen, and it must suspend any annual bonus for calendar year 2002. The board of directors is allowed to make exceptions where necessary to comply with existing agreements. Raises are suspended for people who make $75,000 annually or more.
The carrier must "Seek cooperation of all its employees in achieving substantial operating cost reductions..."
Within ten days, Amtrak must provide DOT with all of the work projects of Amtrak's third-party consultants, and Amtrak and DOT will jointly retain a third party consultant to report on a range of management efficiencies and cost reduction options. The DOT Inspector General is to comment on the draft consultant report and provide assessment of such to DOT and Congress.
Within 30 days, provide a report containing an inventory and existing valuation of all Amtrak assets and the extent to which they are encumbered, and a proposal, timeline and estimated cost for obtaining an ongoing and updated valuation of all assets.
The DOT IG will comment on such reports and provide an assessment of such to DOT and Congress.
Amtrak must provide to the board of directors and DOT by August 1 a detailed report on the operating relationships with commuter rail systems, to explain the effect of an Amtrak shutdown on those commuter agencies. DOT Inspector General is required to comment on such reports and provide assessment of such to DOT and Congress.
Amtrak will provide the directors with a prioritized list of expense reduction options for implementation in fiscal 2003, to identify potential operating reductions of $100 million from currently forecast fiscal 2002 expenses.
Amtrak must agree, along with the Administration, to secure funding to cover the remaining need for up to $170 million for fiscal 2002. The Administration will not request amendments or added conditions, to these currently mutually agreed conditions. The Administration's support is dependent on Amtrak's timely compliance with all other conditions set forth.
Amtrak is also required to provide the "operational information, including origin and destination data by class of service, route, numbers of passengers, revenue, passenger-miles; transportation (rail fare) revenues separated from accommodations revenues; and in one-way city pairs where possible."
The carrier is also required to compile an "on-time performance, one-time report, then monthly and by fiscal year, by route and sub-route where applicable, by direction. NO adjustment for DOT standards. On Time is ON THE SCHEDULED TIME."
The capitalization was in the original text.
Amtrak is also required to "provide whatever is necessary to calculate average minutes late arrival for all trains" at destinations, standard deviations, measurement of how late 95 percent of the trains arrive, percentage of late trains at destination, percentage of late trains at origin, average initial terminal delay, and percentage of trains completing their run to the scheduled destination.
Amtrak provided a preliminary list of "available collateral, currently unencumbered. Values were reported to be net book value and "current escalated value." The values include all encumbrances, but for these assets there are no encumbrances. Figures are in millions of dollars.
The total estimate is $180 million to $286 million.
Harrisburg Line, Harrisburg to Philadelphia,
Thirtieth Street Station $78.9 / 131.6
Wilmington, Del. Training Facility 4.0 / 10.6
Richmond, Va. station and parking, 4.3 acres 1.5 / 4.8
Providence, R.I. station 20.6 / 30.8
Adams Maintenance-of-Way base and adjacent property,
New Brunswick, N.J. 4.6 / 7.4
Odenton, Md. MOW base 4.2 / 6.8
Schenectady, N.Y. station 0.3 / 0.8
Sanford, Fla. station (AutoTrain) 5.9 / 16.6
Lorton, Va. station (AutoTrain) 21.7 / 23.1
Miami, Fla. Station 3.9 / 14.5
Redondo Jct., Cal. Yard 30.1 / 31.8
This may not be all of the available collateral Amtrak has. The original document simply labels it "List Of Collateral" as of June 28.
Amtrak is also required to "provide whatever is necessary to calculate average minutes late arrival for all trains" at destinations, standard deviations, measurement of how late 95 percent of the trains arrive, percentage of late trains at destination, percentage of late trains at origin, average initial terminal delay, and percentage of trains completing their run to the scheduled destination.
odd.
Now if only we could apply the same criteria to congressional and legislative BUDGET passage and we'd have a winning formula. I'll bet on Amtrak being on time first though. :)
Perhaps we might want to provide a subscription to the London Times for our congressfish to mull over. Nah, Amtrak profits WILL be the biggest thing since Enron stock. We'll all be rich.
Amtrak provided a preliminary list of "available collateral, currently unencumbered.
This collateral stuff bothers me. Amtrak is allegedly a corporation, but they really act more as an arm of the government. They've mortgaged Penn Station to the hilt to spend on operating expenses. This is a little like mortgaging your house to pay for your food.
Point is, what is mortgaged can be foreclosed, and this is, IMO, as corrupt (though smaller in scale) as many of the private-sector corporate deaings being revealed now. Can you picture banks taking over Penn Station and kicking passenger trains out entirely?
I feel these are public assets and not Amtrak's to mortgage.
Amtrak didn't really have a choice. They were under the Congressional gun, with a mandate to become operationally self-sufficient by (what year was it? Last year, this year?). Meanwhile, Congress pulled the rug out from under them on this by not appropriating all the money that was promised (in fact, only about half of it). In order to stay alive and on track to self-sufficiency, Amtrak had to mortgage many of its assets.
What would you have had Amtrak do?
Mvh Tim
Amtrak didn't really have a choice. They were under the Congressional gun, with a mandate to become operationally self-sufficient by (what year was it? Last year, this year?).
Generally one does not become self-sufficient by mortgaging your assets to pay current expenses.
Meanwhile, Congress pulled the rug out from under them on this by not appropriating all the money that was promised (in fact, only about half of it). In order to stay alive and on track to self-sufficiency, Amtrak had to mortgage many of its assets.
Begging the question. Were they mortgaging their assets to continue on the road to self-sufficiency or to keep their sorry bureaucracy alive a little while longer?
What would you have had Amtrak do?
You (and most of us) assume that "Amtrak" is synonymous with "American Passenger Trains." Maybe "Amtrak" shouldn't exist any more as the national rail system. We've put all our eggs in the Amtrak basket. The only game in town? If they could put Conrail in bankruptcy and split it up, they can do the same with Amtrak.
And to answer your immediate question--if they can play hardball now, threatening to kill not only intercity trains, but commuter trains that are not their concern as well, they could have done it years ago, before mortgaging OUR rail assets.
If the military decided they wanted a missile system Congress wouldn't authorize, would you let them mortgage Fort Dix? :-)
If the military decided they wanted a missile system Congress wouldn't authorize, would you let them mortgage Fort Dix? :-)
Since Congress has been known to authorize things that the military doesn't want, I don't see this as an option.
To make a long story short,they were busted,making it appear that they were in the black,while they realy were in the RED!!! I truly believe that they should disolve,into regional authorities,with some transit authority type watch dog looking over their sholders ....
Meanwhile, Congress pulled the rug out from under them on this by not appropriating all the money that was promised (in fact, only about half of it). In order to stay alive and on track to self-sufficiency, Amtrak had to mortgage many of its assets.
Begging the question. Were they mortgaging their assets to continue on the road to self-sufficiency or to keep their sorry bureaucracy alive a little while longer?
Talk about begging the question (or, more accurately, about a leading question)!
Have you considered that they might have been mortgaging their assets in the hope that Congress would, at some later time, appropriate enough money for them to redeem the mortgages and achieve operational self-sufficiency?
Do you really think it's realistic to expect Amtrak, any more than any other large organization, to hasten its own demise?
Can you think of another source of operating funds that Amtrak could have tapped?
What would you have had Amtrak do?
You (and most of us) assume that "Amtrak" is synonymous with "American Passenger Trains." Maybe "Amtrak" shouldn't exist any more as the national rail system. We've put all our eggs in the Amtrak basket. The only game in town? If they could put Conrail in bankruptcy and split it up, they can do the same with Amtrak.
Actually, I assume nothing of the kind. I am merely asking what you think Amtrak should have done, given the difficult situation Congress put it in. Again, I hardly think it's realistic to imagine that Amtrak would, or should, have happily gone about the task of dismantling itself (and rather abruptly).
If the military decided they wanted a missile system Congress wouldn't authorize, would you let them mortgage Fort Dix? :-)
No. But then, operational self-sufficiency wasn't an Amtrak decision, it was a Congressional decision.
If the military was trying to comply with an unfunded Congressional mandate, and they wanted to mortgage Fort Dix, what alternatives would you offer them?
-- Tim
Meanwhile, Congress pulled the rug out from under them on this by not appropriating all the money that was promised (in fact, only about half of it). In order to stay alive and on track to self-sufficiency, Amtrak had to mortgage many of its assets.
Begging the question. Were they mortgaging their assets to continue on the road to self-sufficiency or to keep their sorry bureaucracy alive a little while longer?
Talk about begging the question (or, more accurately, about a leading question)!
I asked it as a rebuttable question. The original presented it as an assumption.
Have you considered that they might have been mortgaging their assets in the hope that Congress would, at some later time, appropriate enough money for them to redeem the mortgages and achieve operational self-sufficiency?
First, I argue with the assumption that they are "their" assets. They are the public's assets, purchased and secured with the taxpayer's funds.
Second--Yes, they are trying to buy time, but again, with what isn't really theirs?
Do you really think it's realistic to expect Amtrak, any more than any other large organization, to hasten its own demise?
Of course a company tries to perpetuate itself. But not at the expense of robbing the shareholders. What do you think Enron and WorldCom are about?
Can you think of another source of operating funds that Amtrak could have tapped?
It's not my job to find funding for their bureaucracy. Are you arguing that they can do whatever they want to raise funds if they can't get them from Congress, including, in effect, be selling what isn't theirs.
What would you have had Amtrak do?
They should have done before what they're doing now. Go to Congress and tell them that they can't survive under the current circumstances and what does Congress propose to do about it.
Actually, I assume nothing of the kind. I am merely asking what you think Amtrak should have done, given the difficult situation Congress put it in. Again, I hardly think it's realistic to imagine that Amtrak would, or should, have happily gone about the task of dismantling itself (and rather abruptly).
I already answered that above.
If the military decided they wanted a missile system Congress wouldn't authorize, would you let them mortgage Fort Dix? :-)
No. But then, operational self-sufficiency wasn't an Amtrak decision, it was a Congressional decision.
So what? Congress was warning Amtrak that it expected it to operate out of the farebox. If Amtrak couldn't do it, they should have said so. What real-world business wouldn't like to operate on a permanent subsidy? In fact, this did happen in the so-called "dot-com" frenzy. Companies raised money in IPOs and spent it all trying to stay afloat. When the money went bye-bye, so did the companies.
If the military was trying to comply with an unfunded Congressional mandate, and they wanted to mortgage Fort Dix, what alternatives would you offer them?
Easiest of all to answer: YOU CAN'T. Activities like that are what courts-martials are for.
Meanwhile, Congress pulled the rug out from under them on this by not appropriating all the money that was promised (in fact, only about half of it). In order to stay alive and on track to self-sufficiency, Amtrak had to mortgage many of its assets.
Begging the question. Were they mortgaging their assets to continue on the road to self-sufficiency or to keep their sorry bureaucracy alive a little while longer?
Talk about begging the question (or, more accurately, about a leading question)!
"I asked it as a rebuttable question. The original presented it as an assumption."
The point, of course, was that your language ("sorry bureaucracy") made it, shall we say, less than a neutrally worded question.
Have you considered that they might have been mortgaging their assets in the hope that Congress would, at some later time, appropriate enough money for them to redeem the mortgages and achieve operational self-sufficiency?
First, I argue with the assumption that they are "their" assets. They are the public's assets, purchased and secured with the taxpayer's funds.
They are Amtrak's assets. Amtrak owns them.
Second--Yes, they are trying to buy time, but again, with what isn't really theirs?
They are Amtrak's assets. Amtrak owns them.
Do you really think it's realistic to expect Amtrak, any more than any other large organization, to hasten its own demise?
Of course a company tries to perpetuate itself. But not at the expense of robbing the shareholders. What do you think Enron and WorldCom are about?
Two completely private companies that (in theory at least) didn't receive any government funding, and that were profitable, and that thus bear little or no resemblance to Amtrak.
AFAIK, Enron and WorldCom have not mortgaged their assets to obtain operating funds. The crimes they've committed have nothing to do with mortgages, which, regardless of what you seem to think, are both legal and moral.
Can you think of another source of operating funds that Amtrak could have tapped?
It's not my job to find funding for their bureaucracy. Are you arguing that they can do whatever they want to raise funds if they can't get them from Congress, including, in effect, be selling what isn't theirs.
They're Amtrak's assets. Amtrak owns them.
What would you have had Amtrak do?
They should have done before what they're doing now. Go to Congress and tell them that they can't survive under the current circumstances and what does Congress propose to do about it.
On that score, I agree with you. But I think it would have done as much good as it's doing now. The US would now have been without passenger rail for a few years.
Actually, I assume nothing of the kind. I am merely asking what you think Amtrak should have done, given the difficult situation Congress put it in. Again, I hardly think it's realistic to imagine that Amtrak would, or should, have happily gone about the task of dismantling itself (and rather abruptly).
I already answered that above.
Yes, I know, although you hadn't when I wrote it. You snipped the portion I was responding to, in which you asserted that I was assuming that Amtrak was equivalent to US passenger rail. Which I'm not, except for the fact that when Amtrak dies, the political obstacles to medium- and long-distance passenger rail in the US will prevent it from existing for a very long time.
If the military decided they wanted a missile system Congress wouldn't authorize, would you let them mortgage Fort Dix? :-)
No. But then, operational self-sufficiency wasn't an Amtrak decision, it was a Congressional decision.
"So what?"
So it invalidates the analogy.
"Congress was warning Amtrak that it expected it to operate out of the farebox. If Amtrak couldn't do it, they should have said so. What real-world business wouldn't like to operate on a permanent subsidy? In fact, this did happen in the so-called "dot-com" frenzy. Companies raised money in IPOs and spent it all trying to stay afloat. When the money went bye-bye, so did the companies."
No real-world business (which, BTW, Amtrak is, unless you think it exists in some sort of parallel universe or something) would like to operate on a permanent subsidy the way Amtrak has done, since that has meant breaking even (rather than making a profit) year in and year out. No business wants to operate that way.
If the military was trying to comply with an unfunded Congressional mandate, and they wanted to mortgage Fort Dix, what alternatives would you offer them?
Easiest of all to answer: YOU CAN'T. Activities like that are what courts-martials are for.
1. You expect Amtrak to be court-martialed? *snicker*
2. I didn't ask the question you asked. I asked, "What alternatives would you offer them?" If you won't let them mortgage Fort Dix (which I agree obviously is not a good idea), WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE THEM DO?
-- Tim
Gunn FINALLY had the stones to do what his predecessors should have done. Shut it down and let the commuters fall where they may. Now if Amtrak had done this back in the 80's, perhaps we'd be there today.
Amtrak is allegedly a corporation, but they really act more as an arm of the government. They've mortgaged Penn Station to the hilt to spend on operating expenses. This is a little like mortgaging your house to pay for your food.
Point is, what is mortgaged can be foreclosed, and this is, IMO, as corrupt (though smaller in scale) as many of the private-sector corporate deaings being revealed now. Can you picture banks taking over Penn Station and kicking passenger trains out entirely?
It does seem like an odd arrangement, but then again the lenders wouldn't have agreed to provide financing unless they had adequate security. Penn Station without passenger trains admittedly would not be a particularly valuable asset, absent massive renovations to convert it to commercial uses. Yet some lenders were willing to go along with the deal. My guess is that they figured Congress would come up with an emergency bailout if Amtrak were on the verge of defaulting.
This all strikes me as very reasonable. If any company is in bad shape and wants to be bailed out (irrespective of whose fault the problems were), the organization doing the bailing should know exactly what shape the target company is in.
The DOT ought to know exactly what assets Amtrak has, and how encumbered, even though it would indeed be very bad policy to encumber more of them just to pay for operating expenses.
Good point. I wonder if we can look over some airline's balance sheets while we're throwing taxpayer money around. Maybe Enron, WorldCon and Merrill Lynch too ... I don't think anyone would object to the policy if it was universally applied to all who want a handout.
I think an even playing field is the only answer. My argument is that I think we've invested too much in the Amtrak bureaucracy. Among their failings is the ability to make the rail passenger's case before Congress and the nation. Is it their responsibility? You bet it is. They not only hold the passenger train monopoly in this country, they feel they can take the commuter roads down with them as well.
Commuter roads should die. They do not generate value, they hold up freight traffic, and they sucker money out of my pocket only because some politicos think it's a good idea to take cars off the roads, and the only politically popular way of doing that is to start up a commuter rail and compete with the cars. What about just making people pay for use of the road? People who choose to utilize the private auto should pay the full costs -- whether this be through lost productivity during congestion, or through an EZ-pass.
Let them congest! Let them jam! You wanted your free highways, so deal with the jam! I'm not going to bail you out with a commuter rail.
AEM7
The commuter railroads COULD have built their own track ... Meatball North (aside from the Connecticut run) ain't going to be hurting if Amtrak were to die ... why? Because they don't borrow Amtrak's rails.
The commuter railroads COULD have built their own track ... Meatball North (aside from the Connecticut run) ain't going to be hurting if Amtrak were to die ... why? Because they don't borrow Amtrak's rails.
I don't know the history, but I'd bet that fact came about through political horse-trading in the early Eighties when Metro North was spun out of the mess that became Conrail. I'd love to know how the MTA convinced the powers that be to keep the track with the RR.
Obviously most passenger RRs ran freight or vice versa back in the day. The trouble w/Amtrak is that it's not paying "market value" for its use of the rails; instead, it owns some (NE Corridor) but has a government-passed law that says freight rails must carry it for the rest.
Make it worthwhile for the freight RR to carry passenger trains (more revenue per mile or whatever than freight) and see what fares turn out to be then ... anyone do the math?
Good point ... honestly I don't know the history and don't have time to research it. But it's not like there isn't payment for runs on the "host railroads" that Amtrak does - my understanding of the legislation behind Amtrak was that the host railroads couldn't REFUSE access but that they were paid for it much like any other "private varnish" on their lines. But don't quote me on that.
But at least New York did something smart, however they went about it.
The railroads got s carrot and a stick. Until Amtrak the ICC was empowered to force railroads to seek permission to cancel passenger trains--it was possible to discontinue trains but it was absolute hell for the railroads to do so.
Railroads could be made to run the trains, but they couldn't be made to run them to high standards. Less than 10 years before Amtrak came in the Pennsy still had (IIRC) three westbound and four westbound daily trains between New York and Chicago but only the Broadway was run like they cared. I remember being in Penn Station once to see the General arrive. It was like three cars, no diner, no sleeper, and almost no passengers. And quite late on an aleady leisurely schedule.
With Railpax (Amtrak's working name) the railroads were offered a deal: join Railpax, make a financial contribution (usually equipment--this was the "legacy fleet") and allow us to run our trains on your tracks and we'll remove all operating responsibility from you.
If a railroad refused, they stayed under the old rules. Two major railroads, the Southern and the Western Pacific refused to join and had to keep operating their trains themselves.
The significant name above was W. Graham Claytor's Southern Railway. Mr. Claytor was damned if he would let the government run trains on his road. Of course it is significant that Claytor becane Amtrak President. That was Amtrak's golden era, IMO--a sharp railroad man (and railfan) running a railroad.
Gunn may be a great manager and all that happy horses--t, but he's a modern transit man, not a railroad man, and there's a big difference.
That part I was aware of ... still, you've gotta admire Gunn's brass clangers for calling Congress' bluff in shortsheeting the railroad. If Amtrak is going to head for that great trainwreck in the sky, then it's also time to stop funding the airlines, privatize the airports and demand a profit from United. Let's see how far THAT gets. I think we've all had more than enough of Enronomics and the elected criminals behind this whole mess ...
Gunn may be a great manager and all that happy horses--t, but he's a modern transit man, not a railroad man, and there's a big difference.
Yes, there is a big difference, I agree. However, Gunn is a railfan, a political oldhand, and a good manager. I did not 100% believe in him when he first came onboard, but so far, I have been very impressed. He is straight-talking, he changed things that mattered the most (equipment utilization), and he also played all his political cards perfectly. He had acknowledged to all his employees that "he will make mistakes" -- and that he did, IMHO, by getting rid of the regional menus in the dining cars. Nonetheless, that sort of thing is easy to reverse, and in the grander scheme of things, I think he's going to do really well. If not better than Claytor, at least as good as.
AEM7
Mr Gunn also has several railroads among his list of former employers.
When AMTK was formed Penn Central was still the host railroad. They had no need for Penn Station, and AMTK took it over. PCRR was still running commuter trains on what became Metro North, so in a sense, Metro-North *Always* owned that line. Ditto, I presume ConnDOTs assumption of the PCRR (former NHRR) tracks, since they colaborated with the MTA in the aqusition of these railroads.
So AMTK never owned the lines to Albany or New Haven. How they got hold of the NEC is another matter. I guess they saw a need to operate that line themselves and in the deal that created ConRail, CR ceeded that property to AMTK.
I am not sure if the Poughkeepsie and New Haven branches had come itno the MTA before this time or not, but I suspect that that was the way of it.
Maybe Someone has a *real* history of these events, because I do not remember them all that well.
Elias
July 3 (Reuters) - Six dollars might not fill up your car's gasoline tank, but it can get you from Chicago to Detroit on Amtrak.
Amtrak is increasingly relying on Internet clearance sales, according to a report via Reuters on July 3, with discounts as high as 88 percent, to fill empty seats.
A passenger going from St. Louis to Kansas City could try a special online fare of $5.30 on the 283-mile trip, an 80 percent discount, and a weekend jaunt from Seattle to Portland can be found for $7.20, about 69 percent off the normal fare.
Before the June 28 government deal, Amtrak's crisis shook train travelers with threats of a shutdown to begin after July 4.
The discounts may seem counter to Amtrak's cash-raising goal, but its rationale is simple: the trains are running anyway, so a ticket that brings in even a few dollars is better than leaving the seat empty.
"To haul an empty seat and to have no revenue, it's better to sell it for a nickel," said Gilbert Carmichael, chairman of the Amtrak Reform Council.
Still, do not expect discounts on the some of the more popular trips, such as the Boston-to-Washington line.
On a recent day, Amtrak sold 381 clearance tickets, which can be found on Amtrak's website under the "Rail Sale" promotion, said Amtrak spokesman Clifford Black. That's more than 10 times as many as it sold daily last year, Black said.
The clearance sales have created some extraordinary discounts. The trip between Grand Rapids, Mich., and Chicago, which winds along 176 miles of track and normally costs $35.00, can be bought for $4.30.
The reason? On a recent day, Amtrak carried only 84 passengers on the journey, leaving around 150 seats empty.
Black said Amtrak managers place blocks of seats on clearance depending on capacity. Clearance seats are limited in number, and carry heavy restrictions.
Amtrak's deep discounts also may lure customers into considering rail travel as an alternative to cars and planes, said John Spychalski, a transportation expert at Pennsylvania State University, particularly those travelers still fearing plane travel after last September's attacks on America.
"In some cases, it does work and will bring them back even though the fare the next time might be higher," he said.
However, the fate of Amtrak is in the hands of the federal government, which agreed in last week's deal to supply a $100 million loan to keep it going through summer.
To be sure, rail fare sales will play only a small part in boosting Amtrak's revenue. Of the 65,000 tickets sold on an average day, Black said, fewer than 400 tickets are sold at internet-only clearance prices. Another 6,400 are sold on the Web at regular fares.
Another reason why the discounted web fares may not be selling any better than they are is that the Amtrak web site has had problems with ticket sales in general. When Jr. and I attempted to purchase tickets online for St. Louis to Washington, Missouri, we weren't able to do so - not that the tickets weren't available, but the website continually timed out when trying to complete the transaction. After two days of trying to buy the tickets that way (both from home and from my office) we said to heck with it and waited to purchase them until we were in St. Louis and able to go directly to the station. No discount, but for the distance we were travelling it still only came to $13 each.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tunnel Vision Column
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/09/nyregion/09TUNN.html<<
Strange. The original planners of the 8th Avenue subway had the same problem of people being addicted to the express, which is why the A has that long run from Harlem to West Midtown, and the C stops at all the key stops in Midtown and lower Manhattan where the A is not designed to reach. Now, over 70 years since the gates to the IND subway first opened, planners still have that same problem: wooing people to stay on the locals instead of crowding onto the express. Only now, what's at stake here is not only the Queens line, but the transfer to the #6, a local line that gets tied up on account of so many riders from the Queens line express trying to squeeze on (see the paradox here?)
I may not know how the transfer has gone at 51st since the V replaced the F, but I will say that the TA should keep it that way, just for the sake (and movement) of the IRT east side lines.
Have you seen the TA posters all over Queens Blvd encouraging riders to try the V train? Basically, the posters say, "What's an extra 5 minutes, when you can have your own seat, and arrive to work much more relaxed"?
And the TA is so right. For years, us Queens riders complained about overcrowding on the Queens Corridor. So what does the TA do? They create an additional line with service to Manhattan, and Queens residents avoid it like the plague. Last year, we had only three lines that ran to Manhattan. Today, we have four. Yet, Queens residents and the Straphangers Organization have turned this into a negative.
Truth is, the only passengers who have had their travel time extended, are passengers who enter at 67th, Rego Park, Woodhaven, Grand, and Elmhurst, who used to take a local to Roosevelt and then transfer for an express train.
Truth is, the only passengers who have had their travel time extended, are passengers who enter at 67th, Rego Park, Woodhaven, Grand, and Elmhurst, who used to take a local to Roosevelt and then transfer for an express train.
They can still do this. So not even this can be used as a complaint.
"Truth is, the only passengers who have had their travel time extended, are passengers who enter at 67th, Rego Park, Woodhaven, Grand, and Elmhurst, who used to take a local to Roosevelt and then transfer for an express train. "
Various passengers have had their waiting time extended. Hillside Ave passengers bound for E 53rd now have to transfer for an E (unless they are lucky enough to catch one of the 3 Es per hour).
Passengers from QB to Brooklyn now have to switch at Court Square.
The current arrangement is still the best that can be done, but it has inconvenienced some people. What the media doesn't understand is that on net, more are helped than hindered.
Metrolink is trying to work out a deal to transfer its workforce of contracted Amtrak operators to a freight rail company, a move designed to make sure the commuter trains keep running if Amtrak shuts down later this year, reports The Associated Press.
Metrolink officials sent proposals to two short-haul freight railroads last week asking them to bid on hiring the nearly 145 Amtrak workers who run the commuter line's 416-mile, six-county network.
"It's still tough to tell what is going to happen with Amtrak," Metrolink chief executive David Solow said. "Obviously, that's scary for us. We're looking for a backstop to make sure we aren't affected by what happens with them."
The Metrolink request was sent to Anacostia & Pacific, a Chicago-based company that operates out of the San Pedro area, and RailAmerica, a Florida-based company that runs trains in San Diego and Oxnard. Metrolink contracts with Amtrak, paying about $18 million per year for operators, conductors and dispatchers.
Anacostia & Pacific also operates the New York & Atlantic Railroad On LIRR ROW.
They should look into Herzog, they seem to have a good operasting rep.
elais
If all goes according to plan, "baby bullet" trains will be whisking its riders between San Francisco and Silicon Valley in 45 minutes in about one year, instead of the current one-and-one-half hours. Maybe, planners hope, the trains will persuade up to 30,000 drivers to ride the rails rather than sit on congested highways.
Politicians, including California Gov. Gray Davis and state Sen. Jackie Speier, joined transportation planners to herald the new Caltrain locomotives and cars, which won't open to the public until late 2003. Upgrades to accommodate the new trains are the largest rail improvement project in Caltrain's 139-year history.
"We're trying to get you to work faster and get you home quicker," Davis said.
Speier, a San Mateo Democrat who championed the project in the Legislature, said new transportation options are crucial as California's population grows.
Caltrain has drawn as many as 10 million passengers annually. The 77-mile system runs through Santa Clara, San Francisco and San Mateo counties.
The express trains will cost $55 million; it will cost an additional $110 million for new and upgraded track, new signals, a new station and other improvements, according to Caltrain estimates.
The state's Traffic Congestion Relief Program chipped in $127 million, said Jayme Maltbie, a spokeswoman for the rail system. Additional funding came from federal grants, passenger fares and money from government agencies along the route.
The express trains will be able to dodge some stations along the way and pass slower trains on new tracks. Though they can reach 95 mph, the speed limit along the corridor is 79 mph, and the new trains typically will go around 70 mph. Current trains must stop too frequently to go 70 mph for an extended stretch.
The first phase of the improvement project will be completed by a joint venture partnership between Herzog Contracting Corp. and Stacy & Witbeck, Inc. Part of that will be a centralized traffic control system to let train dispatchers switch trains between tracks remotely, rather than trainmen racing out of stopped engines and performing the task manually.
Chicago's Metra Commuter Rail and the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) hit the federal jackpot June 2 when they were told they were in line to get $56.9 million.
The grant is coming from the Federal Transit Administration.
Federal Transit Administrator Jennifer L. Dorn said the Administration has proposed $7.2 billion for the Federal Transit Program as part of the fiscal 2003 budget.
Metra will use $54.5 million to fund improvements to its Union Pacific West, South West Corridor and North Central lines. CTA will receive $2.5 million to purchase up to five articulated buses.
The Union Pacific West Line will receive $16,390,400 to extend service further west to Elburn, IL, and for right-of-way improvements, two new stations, commuter parking and building a commuter train storage yard at Elburn.
The South West Line will receive $20.6 million to extend service to Manhattan, Ill., and for right-of-way improvements, two new stations, commuter parking and new rail cars.
The North Central Line will receive $17.4 million for improvements, such as the addition of a second track, on portions of the Wisconsin Central Ltd.; and track, signal and station upgrades on the Milwaukee-West Line, five new stations, additional parking at existing stations and rail yard expansion.
Britain handed its insolvent railways to a state-backed firm on Thursday, ending a disastrous six-year privatization blighted by crashes and cash crises. In short, it's a Crown Corporation again.
In a deal aimed at rebuilding passenger and investor confidence, Railtrack Group Plc is giving up the railways for about $11 billion in debt and equity.
Reuters reported last week the government hopes new owner Network Rail will revive the fortunes of a business long starved of investment. It is the third owner of the world's oldest railway in a decade.
"The railways are of critical importance to the social and economic fabric of this country. There is now an urgent need to give the rail system stability," Transport Secretary Alistair Darling told parliament.
Railtrack estimates shareholders will receive from 245 to 255 pence per share under the takeover and a side deal to sell its stake in high-speed Channel Tunnel rail link to a private consortium, London & Continental Railways.
But investors will have to wait until the end of January before they receive the first installment of 160-180 pence.
Railtrack Group Chairman Geoffrey Howe said it was a matter of time before Railtrack, one of the UK's least-loved companies, disappeared. Rail passengers shed no tears for its passing, but also wondered whether its successor would do any better.
"Things will probably get worse," said Michael Doak, a retired engineer, waiting for a train to Aberdeen, Scotland from London's Kings Cross station. He has been making the trip every few weeks for two years and has only arrived on time once.
Railtrack was created in 1996 after the then Conservative government privatized British Rail, handing 40,000 kilometers of track and 2,500 stations to Railtrack and splitting up the train operators to create more than 20 private train franchises.
The firm ran up massive losses, funded by taxpayers, even as it handed millions of pounds in dividends to investors.
One rail worker with 40 years experience had fond memories of British Rail. Speaking at Kings Cross he said today's firms were managed by "wonderboy graduates full of ideas. They don't understand the railways are different. You need experience."
Railtrack shares, suspended at 280 pence last October, resumed trading on Thursday and tumbled as low as 215 pence.
The government forced the firm out of business last October after a series of crashes shattered public confidence and an emergency track repair program sent costs soaring. The decision caused uproar among investors. The architect of Railtrack's demise, Stephen Byers, quit last month.
A group representing 25,000 small shareholders of Railtrack, including thousands of the firm's employees, said it would vote against the offer, which it viewed as unfair, and pursue its battle with the government through the courts.
It was a return to the bad-old days of railroading, only in this case "economic progress" must have been the keyword here.
I'm still trying to figure out how was it that an express train, traveling at 100kph (60mph) through a station, which is normal crusing speed on any railroad, suddenly jumps the tracks and lands on the platform, like in the H&M Exchange Place disaster.
In this case, the wreck was the clear result of shoddy maintenance. The points were not properly assembled and locked and were of a bad design as well. I posted a link to the official report of inquiry which appeared in a UK paper a few days ago but I'm sure the link's dead by now.
Sometimes laissez faire becomes roller derby.
"C" trains were running down express tracks this morning at 6:45.
What was going on???
G.O.
in effect until August 10th.
Peace,
ANDEE
Due to a switch removal south of 59 St on the southbound express track, D trains will be running local from 145 St in order to access 6 Ave. This in turn forces the C to operate on the express track from 145 St to Canal, since the only crossover from the express to the local is north of 59 and then again south of Canal.
The CPW local could easiuly fit the B,C,and D trains
Yes, except with all the people txfring from the D to an express, it's better to have both the C and the A as opposed to just the A. Before D riders would ride to 59th if they wanted 8th ave, and choose from the A and C. Now, they'd all get on the A at 145 or 125 instead of going down all those local stops.
The smart ones would get off their B/D at 125th and take whichever of the A or C comes first, even if the C runs local. The express savings are more than offset by the additional wait time.
The problem with sending the C express is that passengers at CPW local stops bound for 8th Avenue have no choice but to get off at 59th (or 7th, for local stops) and transfer, and passengers at 50th, 23rd, and Spring bound for Brooklyn (or Broadway-Nassau) have no choice but to take the E one stop and transfer. Some sort of direct service would be very useful.
you're up early
> Due to a switch removal south of 59 St on the southbound express track
They are removing a switch? What switch are they removing, and why?
- Lyle Goldman
Switches 133A&B are being removed and will be replaced.
David
Good thing they're going to be replaced. Which switches are 133A&B? Which tracks do they connect?
- Lyle Goldman
The switch that's out is south of 59th Street. There is no switch connecting the southbound express to Sixth Avenue. The only switch connecting the 59th to Sixth Avenue is from the southbound local, which is why Ds and Bs are running on the local track and the Cs are running on the express track. It's much easier to keep the switches set at one position instead of alternating between Sixth and Eighth Avenue.
It's much easier to keep the switches set at one position instead of alternating between Sixth and Eighth Avenue.
That's what usually happens during regular service.
Yeah. And have you ever been on a B (or C) that doesn't get a line-up before the doors close? No one ever said regular service had to be the easiest way to do things.
But the switch will be replaced, and regular service will be restored, right?
- Lyle Goldman
But of course.
David
133A and B lead and exit from tracks A1 to B1 south of 59th Street allowing B Local movement to the 6th Avenue Corridor. If I recall, there was a major derailment over this switch in the middle to late '70s involving one car sheared in half with a sliding handbrake that picked the points. This GO is running until August
NYC owes a big part of its development to the subway lines. People flock to Coney Island, Harlem, Flushing because its a simple train ride away. Manhattan largely has flourish due to this ability to hop on a line n go. History has proven in this city, if u build it, they will go, and more than likely, that area will flourish
All this is brought up to make a point. All the train lines that weren't built. If it were a simple trainride away, you would actually go?
From Queens to the Bronx Zoo; the Bronx to LaGuardia; various area of Brooklyn, Queens, across boroughs rather than just in and out of Manhattan; would people travel between Staten Is and Brooklyn if the R line continue into it?
Quite frankly is easier n less annoyance to get to and from Manhattan than across boroughs sometimes.
The Second Avenue line is long overdue, but its time for some new lines which benefit all the boroughs. Give the people the abilty to flow through the "whole city" easily. Sounds easier said than done, but if u take a good look, could be done easier and faster than the Second Ave line, & benefit more
On a final note, If ur going to make new train lines (eg, the V & W lines) shouldnt they run to new places?
I hope this gives everyone something to think about, & this is not taken as rantings or a trivial knock at the MTA, Thanks and please reply, interested in ur opinions.
Let's say this, if the Second Phase of the IND from 1929 had been built, this subway system would be by far the busiest subway system in the world because (just look at the section here at NYCSUBWAY.ORG on the 1929 Second Phase IND plan) the vast majority of this city would be served by a subway line, especially Queens. Queens would never had been the most underserved borough by the subway. There was so many plans for additional subway lines (hell there was a plan for one that WAS due to down the block away from my place here in Queens!! Never even knew that til now!!). But fiscal crises, the Great Depression and political and NIMBY B.S. put them on hold. I think if they had built these lines, the people definitely would go, and especially in Queens, where people would now have a better option as to ways to get around other than the crowded and delayed Queens Division (E,F,G,R,V).
the v and w were not really new lines, just a reorganization of services(the f is the only new line)
The V really is new also. There was no line that ran local from Queens Blvd through the 53rd Street tunnel. Only the Expresses used it prior. The F however is the only one that uses new trackage.
If you want to get really picky, the V uses trackage that was never used in normal daytime service: the crossovers between local and express at Queens Plaza.
That whole section between Queensplaza and 36th St is still fascination to watch when going through. There a part of me that still thinks if ur going to run 3 local lines like that through Steinway, at least one should branch off instead of all ending the same terminal, one up to Queens College, Kissena Park. When its a foot a snow outside & u have to get around, a underground subway ill do just fine, and arts of Queens could sure use it
That whole section between Queensplaza and 36th St is still fascination to watch when going through. There a part of me that still thinks if ur going to run 3 local lines like that through Steinway, at least one should branch off instead of all ending the same terminal, one up to Queens College, Kissena Park. When its a foot a snow outside & u have to get around, a underground subway ill do just fine, and arts of Queens could sure use it
it never happens that all 4 lines that run local at some time actually run local, theservice patterns are as follows
Rush-------E,G,R,V
Midday----E,G,R,V
Evenings---E,G,R,V
Weekends-E,G,R,V
Nights------E,G,R,V
I understand that, but its still that feeling that each trainline should have their own specific destinations at their terminals and should just meet up as a transfer or track usage option.
the R is Broadway, the V is 6th Avenue, meet up in between, then split again
I think that instead of a branch off of the queens boulevard line a whole new line, or an extension of the astoria line would do better
(the q b line is full throughout)
Turns east and continue on Ditmars or Astoria Blvd
Up to La Guardia, maybe continue to College Point turn south back to Flushing or continue to Beechhurst
Make the El (it's better) 4 tracks and ahve a super express go between JFK and La Guardia.
Actually, that what the new AirTrain will do, if they decide, which common sense dictated too, to extended between the airports.
Right now it will run from JFK up the Van Wyck to Jamaica Station
AirTrain link:
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/index.html
also check out the Queens part of the Independent Second System proposal 1929:
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/indsecond.html
There have been suggestions made about putting intercity rail on new, exclusive rights of way. Someone posted a figure of $5 million per mile for a new ROW.
The AirTrain shows how expensive this is. With few or no exceptions, it has:
- No tunnels
- No condemnation of private property
- All simple elevated track
Cost: nearly $200 million per mile.
Anyone who thinks you could do a new ROW from LA to SF, or NY to Chicago, or Wash to Boston, for less money than that is not thinking through the issues involved in new construction.
There is a pretty big tunnel underneath the one taxiway at JFK, if i'm not mistaken.
The original AirTrain proposal in 1994 specified a line running from Jamaica through Sunnyside and across the East River to 59 St terminal. This wqas nixed due to the projected cost of the project.
Too bad logic didn't prevail with a connection to the A line...Howard Beach was it? or Aqueduct? and cleaning up the remains of the LIRR ROW north of Liberty to hook in for Jamaica and Penn Station [even if the A line goes to Penn too] . Good not only for travellers but airport personnel as well.Yes, also Astoria from Ditmars to LAG is long overdue. So near and yet so far.
There have been suggestions made about putting intercity rail on new, exclusive rights of way. Someone posted a figure of $5 million per mile for a new ROW. The AirTrain shows how expensive this is. With few or no exceptions, it has:
- No tunnels
- No condemnation of private property
- All simple elevated track
Cost: nearly $200 million per mile.
It surely wasn't inexpensive to build the elevated AirTrain line down the middle of the Van Wyck without disrupting vehicular traffic. You also have to figure in the several stations within the JFK loop and possibly the reconstruction of Jamaica station, or at least whatever part of it came out of the AirTrain budget.
Another factor which surely must have boosted the AirTrain's costs are the fact that it's in New York, where construction costs are famously overpriced. Finally, funding for AirTrain came from the PFC (passenger facility charge) levied against airport passengers; maybe I'm just a little cynical, but I get the impression that the cost of AirTrain sort of grew to fit the available funding, if you catch my drift.
My point is that the $200 million/mile cost of AirTrain is scarcely representative of what it would cost to build new HSR lines in the United States. The $5 million/mile figure is no doubt too low, but I'll bet it's closer to the nationwide average than is AirTrain's $200 million/mile.
Enclosed is a link with rendering of what Jamaica Station would look like, along with rendering of the other stations of AirTrain. The one at Howard Beach towers over the side of the line right now
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/galleryframe.htm
Very sharp-looking... It will be nice to see those stations complete. I'd love to see the CTA have that sort of vision on their current projects. Kudos for the Port Authority for hiring a talented architect.
But...
Do you see credit given to the architect anywhere on that web page? Nooo... That really burns me up, and unfortunately it's all too common. No other profession would allow its creative work to be published on the web without credit, but somehow it's okay to post architectural renderings without a mention of the architect. It's as much the architects' fault for allowing their clients to get away with it, though.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think that instead of a branch off of the queens boulevard line a whole new line, or an extension of the astoria line would do better
(the q b line is full throughout)
Doesn't the V come in on the express track when it's heading for Jamiaca, while the manhattan bound comes in on the local track? If that's true, where else in the system does a local come in on a express track while the other local on the reverse side come in on the local track?
N Bwy
Well actually on the 6th Avenue line, there is a point where it seems that the local and the express switch sides, and the local is in the middle, and the express is against the wall. Of course in that case the express track IS actually against the wall, and the local track IS actually in the middle. I forgot what station that is though.
47th-50th Streets
But only on the downtown side.
Peace,
ANDEE
Canal IND: the C stops on the SB local but on the NB express.
There is one thing that you need to remember about the original subways. They were not built to replace the automobile.... automobiles did not exist when the subways were built... They were built to replace the HORSE!Look at pictures of the Roosevelt Avenue line when it was built. It looks like North Dakota out there.
Today, for better or wurst the cah is king, and people have other options. Trains are nice for commuters, but less so for a family outing.
All though a family outing seems tho have a whole new meaning today too, we won't go there.
: ) Elias
Yes I understand the subway came before the car, and do have respect for the automobile and the things it offers (like avoiding the unwanted spinal adjustments which one can recieve on the way to/from home; via the crowded Brighton Line in my case)
Anyway, when is icy, a foot of snow outside and a windchill of -2, those underground subway lines prove more of a comfort than "Car or Bus skating on Ice"
The points uve raised are the reason, as much as I love subways, why I question building lines in certain area. Would still love to see the Second Avenue line, but question the time and cost, where as other areas they can be built or extended easier.
I just joined this group today, and my whole thing is u should be able to put the car aside and catch a subway comfortably whether to work or a family trip and get anywhere around this city. I wonder if Robert Moses didn't have the power he had and the whole Second System was built if the automobile would still be seen as "king" in NYC
Anyway, when is icy, a foot of snow outside and a windchill of -2, those underground subway lines prove more of a comfort than "Car or Bus skating on Ice"
Nobody's going to go for a family outing with 30 centimeters of snow outside and a windchill of -19.
I wonder if Robert Moses didn't have the power he had and the whole Second System was built if the automobile would still be seen as "king" in NYC
If Robert Moses was never born, then SOMEONE ELSE would have been the master builder. You would have been complaining about someone else.
And the car isn't king in NYC alone, it's king EVERYWHERE in the United States and that's not something that Robert Moses did, Robert Moses is a product of that era.
Even if it wasn't for the Great Depression, World War II and the Automobile Age, the Second System would NEVER have happened. The city already had to go into deep hock to get Phase I of the IND built, do you seriously think they would have found the money for the remainder? Intermodal transportation isn't wrong, there is no problem with some areas being served by busses or trolleys (too bad those are gone, stupid NCL).
People do not go on family outings during in snowstorms, however, people DO that need to get to work; Teachers, Doctors, the work list goes on. "I couldnt find a parking space" for many bosses, esp in Manhattan is not a good enough reason to be late
As for Robert Moses, the man did a lot of great things in this country, he also did a few spiteful things, eg building the BQE in ways that buses have to go 10 block up before they could pass under & slashing through various communities without much care for the areas. If he had his way, a structure like the BQE would cut straight through Houston and down Broadway in Manhattan (and thats not an overstatement).
He also did finds ways of pulling funds out of public transportation and projects for his own
As for the Second System, not everything would have been built, correct, but at least the 2nd Avenue and some other crucial lines would have been much more than drawings and plans on paper right now
Overall the point is to getting from point A to point B, and in a city as big, populated, at many times congested as NYC, that is the main objective, whether be bus, car, trolley.
You can drive buses and cars clear cross the country, they have there purpose everywhere, including this city, but u try sitting in one of them on Broadway n see people walking faster than u moving, and wouldnt u gladly hop to the Broadway Express right below you :)
People do not go on family outings during in snowstorms, however, people DO that need to get to work
Your original post was about people riding the subway to access recreational venues. You in fact COMPLAINED that it is easy to access the Central Business District using the subway but it's difficult to travel between peripheral areas.
building the BQE...slashing through various communities without much care for the areas.
You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. The BQE is a vital link. Landowners were properly compensated and renters had nothing invested.
If he had his way, a structure like the BQE would cut straight through Houston and down Broadway in Manhattan (and thats not an overstatement).
Yes, it is. There was no plan for any such thing. The closest was the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would have run between Broome and Spring Streets in the then rundown Cast Iron District. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it would have taken a lot of vehicles off of Canal Street at the cost of destroying some dirty, but beautiful buildings in what could and did become a vital community.
He also did finds ways of pulling funds out of public transportation and projects for his own
He didn't need to. Funds for highways at the time were just ROLLING IN. Highways were the wave of the future, transit was the wave of the past.
As for the Second System, not everything would have been built, correct, but at least the 2nd Avenue and some other crucial lines would have been much more than drawings and plans on paper right now
No, they wouldn't. A bond issue was passed in the 1950s for Second Avenue construction. It was squandered to pay off old debts and current operations.
Another bond issue was passed later. In 1968, the MTA was formed specifically to take the toll surplus from the TBTA bridges and funnel it to transit instead of new approach highways. In 1972, ground was broken on the Second Avenue subway. In 1975, construction had to stop thanks to decades of fiscal mismanagement by the city and ridiculous overspending on wasteful social programs that left the city near bankruptcy.
u [sic] try sitting in one of them on Broadway n [sic] see people walking faster than u [sic] moving
I wouldn't be insane enough to drive down Broadway, I'd use Second, Eleventh or Park, or the West Side or FDR.
"You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. The BQE is a vital link. Landowners were properly compensated and renters had nothing invested."
I will not enter into the debate over the BQE, or the Cross-Bronx, or other roads which have attracted detractors.
However "renters had nothing invested" is a false concept, acondescending and insulting idea which landowners commonly promote to deny renters a voice in this city's democracy. Renters often have a lot invested; being forced to move is always traumatic, esp. for those of middle or lower incomes who struggle to find housing elsewhere. Renters have as much invested in communities, as a whole, as landowners do and their concerns are often intertwined with their landlords' concerns. Renters are as affected by quality of life as anyone else.
So please disabuse yourself of that notion. You're better than that.
However "renters had nothing invested" is a false concept
No, it's the very definition of renting. Renters don't buy their property, therefore nobody has to buy it back.
Buying is permanent, but a rental lasts only for the duration of the lease.
acondescending and insulting idea which landowners commonly promote to deny renters a voice in this city's democracy.
I never said we should bring back landowning requirements for voting.
Renters often have a lot invested; being forced to move is always traumatic
Renting is by nature a transient from of housing. The rent will eventually go up. How can someone expect to live forever in the same place while renting?
esp. for those of middle or lower incomes who struggle to find housing elsewhere.
It shouldn't be difficult for middle class people to find housing. Rent control is what makes it difficult for middle class people to find new housing because it discourages development of rental properties.
It is irresponsible to expect to live in a rental for a long period of time, since the price will invariably go up (assuming market forces prevail), whereas a person buying a house, condo or coop will pay the same mortgage fee every month for 15 or 30 years and then never again. Maintenance may go up, but that's different.
Renters have as much invested in communities, as a whole, as landowners do and their concerns are often intertwined with their landlords' concerns.
No, the renter doesn't own the property and doesn't have to make sure it can be sold. Renters can just walk away.
So please disabuse yourself of that notion. You're better than that.
I am better than that, therefore I will NOT disabuse myself of that notion.
A person who expects to die a renter is a damn fool and I'm not afraid to say it.
Hey! He doesn't call himself a Pig for nothing! (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
I admit I've rarely seen more ignorance with regard to a subject. Marie-Antoinette's "Let Them Eat Cake" comes to mind...
No, you're wrong.
Renters did not purchase their apartments. All they deserve is a few months notice and time to find a new location and to move their stuff out (and a return of their security deposit). If you want to extend the definition of investment further, then go ahead, but all I meant by investment is financial.
That is true. Yes renters have some sort of investment in the neighborhood, and it is hard to find good rentals. However, there investment is nowhere near as much as the landowner's investment. It's comparing apples and oranges. Basically, a renter can just pack up and leave, for the most part. An owner can not just walk away from his building quite as easily.
"Landowners who aren't bought out should be paid for the depreciation in their property. "
You haven't done a lot of renting, have you? While the basis of renting does agree with that, the impact of renting a home and moving is a bit more than, say, renting a car and furniture.
I never said that phrase in the quotes.
You are correct. I placed my reply in the wrong box.
That quote has nothing to do with renting. A person who owns property in the path of a highway and is bought out is much better off than someone who is right next to the path, and goes from living on a quiet street to living next to a highway, the property is obviously cheaper then, and the homeowner loses.
If you're talking about my "costs of moving" quote, then I don't see how you can get any more fair in paying someone for the cost of moving their furniture and themselves to another apartment. Sometimes things have to be torn down to make way for other things.
"but all I meant by investment is financial. "
Then limit yourself to that. The original post which I responded to implied much more than merely a financial investment. And if it didn't acknowledge that, then you do need a lot of educating.
I didn't even see the original post, so I don't knwo if my respose applies or not.
I said "Landowners were properly compensated and renters had nothing invested."
The problem with that quote is that I used the word "compensated," as if I meant that there are other things for which a landowner has to be paid, like the cost of moving or for all of the memories that will be lost, but renters do not.
Thinking about that, I feel I should add something: If renters are forcibly evicted to build something, then they should have their moving costs paid. Landowners who aren't bought out should be paid for the depreciation in their property.
After reading that reply, I think I'm going to end this thread now.
He doesn't call himself a Pig for nothing!
That's right, I have to associate myself with the smartest animal if I'm going to make sense.
And am more than willing to hear ur responces, but please understand what Im saying before u get worked up and respond. You are twisting up earlier statement I made without giving consideration to why Im making them
As congested as this city can get, (with traffic, then finding a parking spaces in Manhattan), my point is You should be able to go from point A to point B with ease, whether id be work or recreation. Buses & trolleys become limited again due to the traffic which occurs in Manhattan, this is why I lean more towards usage the subway line.
You URSELF make the statement: "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." I dont despute the BQE having a purpose in this city, its up, its being used, alright, but there are 2 sides to every story. Again, there are sections of the BQE that buses and truck cannot pass under, yuo have to go up and around. This it time.
Regardless of the route, the main point… traffic, You urself again talk about traffic on Canal, (traffic: which im sure we can both agree on as a nuisance and try to avoid it at all cost).
A lot of the funds he got in the beginning was from tolls off of the Triborough Bridge, which he used to fund the Whitestone and Throgs Neck. Towards the end is where the public transportation was neglected (and yes there was persuasion of moneys)
"…would have been much more than drawings and plans on paper right now." You, myself, and a ton of other people have issues with the MTA and how its allocated funds, but debt havent stopped any company when they were bent on building something, just slowed them down.
Finally, and I quote u "I wouldn't be insane enough to drive down Broadway, I'd use Second, Eleventh or Park, or the West Side or FDR." Broadway has businesses, shops, vendors, colleges, ect. people use Bway, hence conjestion & traffic. Theres no need to add more congestion on it surfacewise
Wow! Good post! You actually managed to spell a few words correctly! (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
think I hit a nerve bringing up Robert Moses
Today, for better or wurst the cah is king, and people have other options. Trains are nice for commuters, but less so for a family outing.
The average New York City household does not have a car. That statistic includes those parts of New York City not near the subway.
I remember being huddled up with 20 other people at Kings Hwy Station Bus stop. 10 degrees outside, & all of us watching the bus a stop away stuck in the ice.
All of us heading from Kings Hwy Station (Q) To Nostrand & Utica Avenues, were train lines were supose to be
In the Second plan, the nostrand line was suppose to be extended further down. Also the reason Utica Avenue Station (A & C train is so large because it has a provision; the center has and express and local box. a train line from 2nd Ave (F) was suppose to continue under the east river, (joining with the South 4th line from Chambers (E)) connecting to the G train, through Utica Avenue
I guess that's true, especially in Manhattan, where it would be the most inconvenient to own a car. It's hard to imagine, since out here in Suffolk, there are sometimes 3 or 4 cars to each house!I would assume that many parts of Queens, that have driveways, the statistic would be closer to the rest of Long Island. However, I did not have a car when I lived in the city, it was more of a hassle than a convenience, so I definitely understand why many of the households in the city may not own a car.
If anything, dealing with Suffolk and Nassau, there should be a main underground line, because commuters into the city have the most trouble outthere wither, and always hearing about the delays whern even a little show falls. The scenery is beautiful, but scenery is the lest thing on ur mind when u just want to get & ur stuck in a car or the platform cause of the snow
Just to clarify -- I'm not speculating; my information is straight from the U.S. Census Bureau web site (well, I had to do a bit of arithmetic). IIRC, 52% of NYC households have access to zero automobiles. Obviously, that number is much higher in Manhattan and much lower in Queens and Staten Island.
I myself never owned a car when I lived in the city, but when I say the car is king, I mean that it is the cars and the roads that get attention without any second thought whatsoever.
Most New Yorkers have no use for either a car or a king!
The city spend millions upon millions building and fixing roads with out question and without state or federal dollars. Why is transit a second class citizen.
Screw the Fed.... Just DO IT!
: ) Elias
thats exactly my annoyance too, n part why I pick on Robert Moses a bit sometimes cause the things that were done and blocked in public transportation for his roads, one could only imagine
I really have nothing against what Robert Moses did for the highway system. Most of the roads and bridges are very necessary, and we would be paralyzed without them. My only problem with him was his total lack of support for public transportation.
Most New Yorkers have no use for either a car or a king!
Ah, what sensible people - however, lighting up the ESB for the Queen was a nice touch even though I see no point in monarchy!
And even those with cars are riding the subway more than they're driving.
["Look at pictures of the Roosevelt Avenue line when it was built. It looks like North Dakota out there."]
Here's a picture of it
That "farmland" sums up this thread perfectly......If u build it, they will go
Hey, great picture
A line that flows through the whole city?
Hell Gate/New York Connecting RR/Bay Ridge Line. Direct access from Co-op city and the East side of the Bronx to Bay Ridge Brooklyn, passing through Astoria, Woodside, Middle Village/Maspeth, Ridgewood, Bushwick, East NY, Midwood, Brooklyn College, Ocean Pkwy, Bensonhurst.
Lines it comes within close proximity to: The 6 (Whitlock Av), N/W (Ditmars Blvd), 7 (69st), M (Metropolitan), L (Wilson Av, Bushwick Av), A/C/L/J/Z (B'wy Junction), L/LIRR (Atlantic Av), L (Sutter, New Lots), 3 (Livonia), Q (Ave H), F (Ave I), N/W (New Utrecht), N (Ft. Hamilton, 8th Av).
Track is already there, but separate tracks would have to be laid on the ROW for the subway, since Amtrak and the NY & A operate on various parts of the line.
If NJT could do it with the former CNJ main and the HBLR, why can't the MTA?
As far as I see it, and annoyingly enough, the MTA wouldnt create any train line out to the Queens/Nassau border, cause they think they would loose the money they pull in from the LIRR.
What they failed to realize, if they built some "underground line" in the outer borough, more would travel to avoid the drama of conditions above ground, be it the elements, or other traffic. The M train could take the LIRR rout up to Jamaica instead of dead stoppin at Metropolitan, that could turn express to Jamaica
AMEN!
- Lyle Goldman
I call this one, "Tying up loose ends."
O.k. I've stayed out of this discussion long enough. If this has been suggested before, I apologise, but I haven't seen or heard it:
Take two trains that are both under-utilized, and put them together. Simultaneously correct a mistaken express/local flip-flop.
The recent V train and it's changes have had one major positive, and one major negative:
The positive: More trains to Manhattan. This is good because this is where most people are going. Most. Mass transit. Most. Good.
The negative: Less express trains to 51st street. Bad. This is bad, because this is where many, if not most long distance riders of the Q.B. line are going. Bad.
So, the suggestion has been to flip-flop express and local service on the Q.B. line between the F and V. This maintains previous express levels of service to 51st street while still having the added benefit of more trains to Manhattan.
But this is where the logic stops.
People have been arguing against this flip, because they see, plain as day, that if people had a choice of taking an express train to 6th ave local stations, or a local train to 6th av. local stations... they'll STILL CRAM ONTO THE F.
So, so far, in either scenario, the V train remains under-utilized. So perhaps all the arguing continues on because BOTH SIDES ARE CORRECT. Whether the V runs via 63rd or 53rd, it is still a local train to where an express train goes much faster. With the same destination as the F, the V can NEVER compete.
So... don't fuss over the Q.B. end of the V... make a fuss over where it goes. Offer a truly new routing alternative:
Let's look to Manhattan, and see where there are problems. Maybe we can kill two birds with one stone.
One need only look as far as the Broadway Express tracks to see a line over-serviced in one direction, and under-serviced in the other. Uptown (Q) and diamond trains pulling into 42nd and 57th street stations are always almost empty. This is because it is the end of their line. The same occurs on the downtown (V) at or near 2nd avenue. Two train lines terminating uselessly in Manhattan. Hmmmm. An idea is born:
Make the Q and V trains the same train.
Get rid of the V designation all together. Continue(Q) and trains uptown, through the 63rd street tunnel, and then along the local Q.B. line.
Suddenly, a person waiting at Roosevelt Ave, can take an express E to 8th av, an express F to 6th av, OR a Local (Q) or to Broadway Express!!!
"But wait," you say. "What about the R?" What about the R? It's a local-local service that gets into Manhattan slower than the F, and then moves through Manhattan as slow as the F. So people take the express F right to 6th avenue, and walk from their cross street to places like Broadway and 30th street. But the 63rd street tunnel feeds into the Broadway express tracks. And suddenly, people can take an express... WITHOUT TAKING A *QUEENS BOULEVARD* EXPRESS. It may actually take people off the crowded F, because it would be a better way than the (R) to get quickly to 34th & B-way and especially the Union Square or Chinatown neighborhoods. A person might take a Q.B. local if they have a single seat to express service through to lower parts of Manhattan. For example... From 36th St, the last local stop on Q.B. inbound, The R train does this:
Queens Plaza, Lex @ 59th, 5th Av @ 59th, 57th @ 7av, 49th, 42nd @ B'way, 34th, 28th, 23rd, 14th, 8th, Prince, Canal.
13 stops to Canal.
The Q train on 63rd st would do this:
21st Queensbridge, Roosevelt Island, Lex @ 63rd, 57th @ 7av, 42nd @ B'way, 34th, 14th, Canal.
8 stops to Canal.
In addition, people know the 59th street tunnel to be slow. The 63rd street tunnel is newer and allows faster river crossing.
So, make the V and the Q trains, one train, call them the Q trains, and it works like this:
Current Service:
E - 8th Av Loc, 53rd st, Q.B. Exp.
F - 6th Av Loc, 63rd st, Q.B. Exp.
G - Cut Back status
Q - B'way Exp, Terminating at 57th & 7th av.
R - B'way Loc, 59th st, Q.B. Loc.
V - 6th Av Loc, 53rd st, Q.B. Loc.
Result: 2 Exp-Loc trains, 2 Loc-Loc trains, and 1 Exp to nowhere.
My Plan Service:
E - 8th Av Loc, 53rd st, Q.B. Exp.
F - 6th Av Loc, 53rd st, Q.B. Exp.
G - Leave it cut back. No room on Q.B.
Q - B'way Exp, 63rd st, Q.B. Loc.
R - B'way Loc, 59th st, Q.B. Loc.
V - No need.
Result: 3 Exp-Loc trains and 1 Loc-Loc train.
The main principal behind making this work, is that you are luring people off of a Q.B. express train with a train that goes express in Manhattan. People ARE express crazy. Make as many announcements as you'd like. It won't change the desire to feel like you're getting there a little faster. This is the NEW YORK CITY subway system. Did we forget?
You can't build a new express line. But you can make a new express route. This is the key.
Now, to make sure this plan works, let's do math in terms of Trains Per Hour. TPH. This is based on looking at the schedules to find the most frequent service and estimating TPH. These are estimates. Don't shoot me!
(Maximum TPH on one track is 30, which is a train every other minute).
Current service pattern:
Q.B. Express:
E - 12 TPH
F - 12 TPH
Total 24 TPH.
Q.B. Local:
R - 9 TPH
V - 9 TPH
Total 18 TPH
(funny how this leaves room for G service. Am I estimating completely incorrectly? The g schedule shows an ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM of 8 TPH. Probably more like 7. 18 + 8 = 26!! Perhaps the problem is storage at Continental Av? But if you bring more trains in, you are also sending more trains out. And a short-term build option would be possible to fix this kind of problem. But I don't want to get into the G. It's a whole other story.)
6th Av Local:
F - 12 TPH
V - 9 TPH
Total 21 TPH
B'way Express:
Q - 6 TPH
- 6 TPH
W - 7 TPH
Total 19 TPH
And here's how it might look with my service plan:
Q.B. Express:
E - 12 TPH
F - 12 TPH
Total 24 TPH.
Q.B. Local:
R - 9 TPH
Q - 6 TPH
- 6 TPH
Total 21 TPH
(funny how this still leaves room for G service!)
6th Av Local:
F - 12 TPH
Total 12 TPH
B'way Express:
Q - 6 TPH
- 6 TPH
W - 7 TPH
Total 19 TPH
Result:
Before:
Q.B. Express - 24
Q.B. Local - 18
6th Av Local - 21
B'way Express - 19
Overall: 82
After:
Q.B. Express - 24
Q.B. Local - 21
6th Av Local - 12
B'way Express - 19
Overall: 76
This results in an overall service decrease (6 less trains per hour overall as two lines were combined into one, providing more station-stop service with fewer trains).
This also results in a significant service drop to 6th Av. local stations excluding 34th street, which has a transfer to where service was increased. Service is reduced to 12 TPH at 57th St, 23rd St, and 14th St on 6th avenue. That's a train every 5 minutes, which is just about enough to cover those stations during the rush anyway. By comparison, Broadway Local stations only get about 18 TPH at rush hour, which is every 3 to 4 minutes. [And if the N and R came spaced out evenly, we wouldn't have to wait the 8 minutes after an N AND R go by one right after the other!]
If more service is truly needed for more intra-6th av service during rush hour without the V train... the B or D could theoretically be extended down the local track to 2nd av. The switches just north of 42nd street, though busy, could probably handle allowing a few B's or D's to switch to the local track instead of the uptown express track. It's the same maneuver, just in the other direction. In fact, I'll bet a whole bunch of CPW or Grand Concourse riders would LOVE to have an extension of one of those two lines through the rest of Manhattan.
So there it is! A completely thought out idea (born in the mind of my good friend and fellow sub-talker Mike Piaker) for your parousal and tomatoes.
It's a sound plan. It looks good on a map. It cleans up a bunch of "loose ends" by making the Q and V one service, offering Q.B. riders more choices, rather than simply more trains, and it might even have a benefit in store for Bronx IND riders as well.
The trains fit. The service makes sense. The options are better... and perhaps, it may create an excellent compromize between those who advocate more Local ridership on Q.B., and those who need to get to 51st and Lex (or wherever they're going) as fast as possible.
Fair enough?
Discuss,
-Andrew Merelis
i would put extra service on the F, and run these extra trains through the 63rd tunnel to provide 57/6 with service
The idea makes sense to me, though I'm not a Queen's rider. You are right that it doesn't make sense to terminate a line in Manhattan if you don't have to. And I would think that extending the Q to Queens would be a more efficient use of subway cars than having the whole new V line. Plus, it gives Queens riders an express train through Manhattan. Furthermore, I even think it would make sense for Q to be a Queens express as well, but I don't think that Queens riders could cope with the drastic change of having the E or F bumped down to a local.
"Furthermore, I even think it would make sense for Q to be a Queens express as well, but I don't think that Queens riders could cope with the drastic change of having the E or F bumped down to a local. "
I agree that it is a possibility. But I also agree with your psychological assumption. And besides, don't mess with a good thing. The E and the F (as they were) work. How many other lines could say that?
-Andrew Merelis
Can you maintain the 5 to 6 minute Q experss headways during Rush??
How it the Q under used during rush hour?? The trains (Local and Express) are standing room only. Yes they are not (for the most part) at crush densitity but I won't call it under used.
Both Q trains, in Brooklyn, are at or near crush capacity. Reduction from current headways during rush hours is out of the question.
Gentlemen,
If you are going to refute or negate an arguement I make in my proposal, I welcome it, wholeheartedly.
But if you are going to put words in my mouth, and negate THAT, I'm going to have to correct you.
First:
"How is the Q under used during rush hour?? The trains (Local and Express) are standing room only."
Response:
I'm sure they are. I never said the Q was underutilized along it's length. But you must admit that the Q empties out above 42nd street, as it only has one more stop to go. It is this midtown unloading that I am addressing.
Second:
"Both Q trains, in Brooklyn, are at or near crush capacity. Reduction from current headways during rush hours is out of the question."
I agree. I did not advocate reducing headways. Nowhere, during my meticulous combing-over of the TPH statistics did I say the words "reducing" or "headways." I took CURRENT schedules to make the alternative plan. So, based on my figures, the current Q services in brooklyn would be UNAFFECTED!!... other than a new one-seat express ride from Brooklyn to Q.B. :)
Guys. God is in the details.
-Andrew Merelis
"God is in the details."
Fine. Here are the details of what's wrong with your plan:
- The introduction of the V provides a way for QB passengers to get to E 53rd and 6th Ave without taking one of those precious commodities, namely a QB express. This has been moderately successful. The 5 tph worth of V passengers (10 tph at 50% capacity) are gone from the E and F, making those trains less crowded. (Actually, they are gone from the F, allowing NYCT to replace 3 Fs with Es, thus also reducing crowding on the Es).
- These 5 tph worth of passengers mostly go to 34th St or further north in Manhattan (you can see the V empty out at each station; by 34th there aren't many people left). If they had wanted to take a Broadway train, they could have taken an R. Pardon me for emphasizing, but you have 5 TPH WORTH OF V PASSENGERS WHO WERE NOT WILLING TO TAKE AN R before December 2001, because it didn't go where they wanted to go. A Q is only an advantage over an R if you go south of 34th (only one station skipped up till 34th).
You can argue that current V passengers can just walk an extra block from the Q to get to 6th Ave, if that's where they are heading, but the fact is they had this opportunity before Dec 2001 and they didn't take it.
One more (related) point: The V is a failure in the eyes of (some) passengers at express stations because they prefer the faster F they had previously to 53rd. However, the V is a success in the eyes of (some) passengers at local stations, especially those south (west) of Roosevelt, since they now have direct access to 53rd and to 6th. Sending a local via 63rd not only eliminates that direct access, it even makes the indirect access worse than it was before December 16 -- local passengers could previously take either a G or an R to QP and change there to an E or F, but under this plan they'd have to wait (twice as long, on average) specifically for an R, since the Q wouldn't take them to QP.
Also, sending only Queens expresses through 53rd forces G passengers who need local stops in Queens to make two transfers -- the second one only to the R, again, since the R is the only local by this plan to serve QP. That's two more transfers than they had to make seven months ago. Sometimes it's impossible to avoid transfers like this, but the OP doesn't even consider this problem.
Love the Q plan! The E and F should only be to what it used to be before 12/16/01. Making the F a local is a good idea making a few G trains into Queens Blvd. would be a plus for G riders. With all of the lines feeding into Queens Blvd. now asks what equipment each line will use. Now you can restore the G into 8 R46 cars keeping the E, F, and R with the same equipment as now. What about the Q? Keep the proposed assignment plan from 1997 when the Q had R68A's. Mix the line with either R68's or R68A's from Coney Island with the extra surplusses from the two shops providing all of the equipment needed to keep the other lines going. Give the B slants again, the N the R42's, the E R32's, the F R32/46 combo, and the R all R46's. The D will have the surplus from Concourse Shops in R68's.
I didn't understand some of what you were saying in there...
You said: Love the Q plan! The E and F should only be to what it used to be before 12/16/01. Making the F a local is a good idea making a few G trains into Queens Blvd. would be a plus for G riders.
I am to assume that you want to put the F back on 53rd and the Q on 63rd.
1. 56/6th av stop becomes unserved.
2. You say make the F a local through 53rd st and the Q express through 63rd st. That's the same thing right now, except you send the 63rd st line to the broadway line, one that gets lower ridership from Q.B. than any other.
3. how do you plan on sending the Q to queens blvd. exp when the E already has 18tph?
Well, you can have a few F trains as explained earlier in this thread operate via 53rd St. while most operate through 63rd. Either the F, or Q will become local on Queens Blvd. The V would be eliminated entirely.
Sending a local via 63rd not only eliminates that direct access, it even makes the indirect access worse than it was before December 16 -- local passengers could previously take either a G or an R to QP and change there to an E or F,
I think that is one of the faults of the connection of the 63rd Street line. I guess it was the only way to connect it, but I really think that the connection would be better if it stopped at Queens Plaza first. The fact that the 63rd Street line doesn't stop at the first/last express station, Queens Plaza, makes it a less flexible route. If the line stopped at Queens Plaza before going into the 63rd Street conncetion, it would have given the people who got on at the local stations b/t QP and Roosevelt one last chance to transfer, or people coming from the 63rd STreet line a chance to tranfer if their destination was one of those local stations before Roosevelt.
That's an interesting point. However, the location of the 21 St- Queensbridge station (41 Av and 21 St) and subway tunnel alignments would probably have made that exceedingly difficult.
The problem is, unhappy people complain, happy people keep their mouths shut.
-Hank
The problem is, unhappy people complain, happy people keep their mouths shut.
That is very true, and on a similar note, that is one of the reasons that NIMBY voices are so strong when a new line or increases in a line are proposed. The people who hear about it and are for it just say to themselves, "Isn't that great", while the NIMBYS start screaming and jumping up and down.
And of course, the people who complain think their opinions are the only ones which count, and "YOU (meaning the opposing view point) KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR YOUR STUPID OPINION."
This is an honored tradition in New York.
But you seem to be running more (Q) trains in Brooklyn than you are in Queens. Where are you turning the others.
If you have through traffic into the 63rd Street tunnel, then you cannot terminate the other (Q) at 57th.
I like your plan, but I'd terminate the (Q) at Continential and the at 179th Street.
Elias
I agree. I did not advocate reducing headways.
As I understand your proposal, you would have only a 6 TPH rush hour headway on both the circle & diamond Q. This is inadequate.
The current 9 TPH is inadequate, but the capacity of the Manhattan beidge negates additional trains.
The current 9 TPH is inadequate, but the capacity of the Manhattan beidge negates additional trains.
If (Q) and < are not enough for the Brighton Line, then why does the (M) run on the West End and not the Brighton Line?
At one point the M did run on the Brighton Line, but not sure of the reason for the switch. Still question its purpose pass 36th Street. Would be happy if anyone could explain that
To Brsubways:
Yes, the "M" did run on brighton. When it did, the D was the express, and the Q was a peak direction local (which had many of it's runs cancelled according to some of the older TA employees)(D trains ran local on weekends/nights). When Q service became a more permanent affair, M trains were sent to West End to relieve rush hour crowding on the B line. That's why it runs to Bay Pkwy rush hours. Off-peak hours the West End didn't really need 2 trains, so the M was cut back to 9th av middays. During the '95 bridge construction midday M's terminated at Chambers to make room for Q's using the montague tunnel, and this cut back remained in effect until recently when people cried about loosing Grand St. Service, so M's were extended to 9th av again.
thanks 4 explaining that :)
I think you're a bit off. In the 80s, the TA completely rebuilt the Brighton line, making the D and Q skip-stop between Brighton Beach and Prospect Park. That's when the M was moved to the West End, and the R to Nassau St was eliminated.
-Hank
1. The M wouldn't draw enough ridership to be of any value.
2. The Brighton line has been off limits to tunnel service due to switching delays which would cause problems south of Dekalb.
But you must admit that the Q empties out above 42nd street, as it only has one more stop to go. It is this midtown unloading that I am addressing.
Almost every train is empty when it nears it's terminal. The Q especially, because people can take three other trains between 57th/7th and 42nd.
#1- I like the plan though I still want to see the G in Queens...If theres no space in Continental relay, how about MAKING more space by building a new relay yard with 4-6 tracks or just simply run ALL local trains(G,Q,R) to Hillside Av where they have a 4-track relay and the F can run express to 179st for a separate set of a 4-track relay.
#2- How about using the V as a shuttle between 57st/6av and 2av/Houston during weekdays and use the B between 57st/6av and Herald Sq on weekends/nights?
I'll concur on #1, the G must return to Queens. No space at
Continental extend the service[s] to 179th. I is a Greenpointer.
;-) Sparky
The next time you buy a lottery ticket, would you be willing to sign an affidavit promising to contribute all your winnings to the construction of expanded track and platform space at Queens Plaza for the G?
Why don't you go and indulge in some more of "Mike's Lemonade".
Or visit the South Side of Brotherly Love.
:-) Sparky
"Or visit the South Side of Brotherly Love. "
How did you know? I'll be on the Broad Street Subway this evening headed to Race-Vine Station.
Are you sure you wouldn't rather live in Philadelphia? No G train to complain about; the Broad Street Line express runs
faster than the Lex and the G; and you can bitch and moan about all the rich suburban bastards who conspire to block funding for subways in Philly. And, unlike your current posts, you'd actually be right (though there's not much SEPTA would do about it).
How'bout sending the E back to 179 st as the express,run F trains thur Queens as the 53st local[like it was originaly proposed]place V trains in service from Archer ave as the 6th av,Q B Exp thru 63st [like it was suppose to]and run them to Coney Island.F trains can go to Hudson Terminal[WTC]except rush,then it can run to Church ave
That idea solves nothing. People on 53rd st still want double express. Doesn't matter if you call it the F or the V.
that is the way the MTA outlined the new services some years ago with the V line as the express out of 179st insted of Archer....The plan called for the F/V from 179,E/R from Archer[only a few R rush hours]and some Q from 71 ave.....Q/V from 63rd st E/F from 53 st and R from 60th. F/R served as the locals,while E/V and some rush hour Q's served the express .No G trains past Court Square.
Greenpointers, get the short end of the "Going Your Way" MTA stick,
no "G" to Q.B. >GG< anybody.
;-) Sparky
While your charge is clearly nonsensical, I like it far better than the NIMBY attitude we sometimes see from certain loudmouths in Queens who pretend to represent their communities, who lack subway service.
It is truly excellent that Greenpointers support the subway and want expanded service.
Ron,
I may even have to obstain from negatories in my thoughts about you.
I'll agree, Queens did, does and will need expanded subway services.
The single fare does help.
The second IND should have been built, but the section thru Maspeth,
as an EL, is questionable.
As for supporting Greenpoint, well I've already resided more then
I will reside. The 'GG' is a blue collar/student line that connects
Brooklyn with Manhattan via Queens on one end and Brooklyn with
Manhattan on the other. True, there is no peak crush at a given hour,
but the loading is spread thruout the day, evening and night.
;-) Sparky
"The second IND should have been built, but the section thru Maspeth, as an EL, is questionable. "
You have a good point about the El. But how many Maspeth residents (from all of them, not just the loudmouth crybaby busybodies) would really object to true subway service (this could include a near-grade or sunken portion enclosed in a tunnel box and topped with a park or other type of open space -see what Boston does with the Big Dig)?
Ron,
I do not know what was on the site of the alignment of the El thru
the heart of Maspeth, would it have remained suburban as it is today,
if built?
Maspeth is the closest suburban community on Long Island nearest
Manhattan, while Greenpoint is urban, but not dense. They did
bisect the community with the Long Island Distressway.
But that's me three cents worth.
;-) Sparky
"I do not know what was on the site of the alignment of the El thru
the heart of Maspeth, would it have remained suburban as it is today, if built?"
The only thing that is predictable is that property values near the stations would rise dramatically. There might be some increase in housing density along the transit line, but this would not necessarily change the neighborhood's character.
Forest Hills has high-rise housing near Queens Blvd., but if you go further up the hill there are beautiful single-family homes. If you look at the LIRR, say, in Bayside, Douglaston or Little Neck, there is higher density immediately around the stations, but the suburban character is intact.
So the fear of transforming a whole established neighborhood is unreasonable.
One good thing that might happen is that residents will get a cluster of useful retail establishments near station sites where all you have now is garbage, railroad tracks etc.
Of course, you should understand something up front: I believe that the residents of a neighborhood have every right to fully participate in any process which brings new services or infrastructure to the area, but they do not have absolute veto rights over them, because the greater need can at times be more critical.
Ron
You make some very good point in ur last post.
Elias made earlier comment: "when most of these lines were built, parts of NYC looked like North Dakota."
The 7 line made a lot of areas, and the LIRR line were built as a subway line as early as the 7, maybe it would have looked like Broadway under the J/Z line now. Ur definately right about the store clustering around the stations
In terms of real estate, people renting basement apts from private owners, one of the first question in peoples mind is "how close is it to the subway."
For any new line, ur going to get everyones opinion. A lot of people would like lines near, just not right up under there homes(not me speaking, but the average comment I get) They cant have it both ways tho, this is where agin I agree with the last part of ur post on the matter:
"Of course, you should understand something up front: I believe that the residents of a neighborhood have every right to fully participate in any process which brings new services or infrastructure to the area, but they do not have absolute veto rights over them, because the greater need can at times be more critical."
You are absolutely right about the 7. Its construction virtually created Flushing and Corona.
Of course, Maspeth is definitely not like North Dakota, so the changes would not be as dramatic.
One city where density grew dramatically (and housing went upscale) was Bethesda,after the Red Line stations opened at Bethesda and the NIH.
Luxury housing was built and opened on Roosevelt Island in 1989, when the 63rd St Extension of the IND 6th Av line opened. The subway made that possible by jacking up real-estate values. However, this did not change the entire island.
Although areas like Maspeth are developed already, if they were to run a line through it, it would definately raise real-estate values and become very densely populated
Red Hook Brooklyn is now developing. Its all old warehouses and a fair amount of home right across the river. Wonder how that area would really burst if they branched from the N/R/M down there.
Actually, they may bring back the old trolley line to service the area up Columbia to Atlantic Downtown Bklyn. Was in the Daily news a while back, if find the site, will post
Although areas like Maspeth are developed already, if they were to run a line through it, it would definately raise real-estate values and become very densely populated
While it will definitely raise values, I don't know if the area will be come more densely populated, as it is already built, unless they started tearing down the old houses, and building newer multi-family housing there.
in some cases, NYC is notorious for tearing down things in the name of progress
The once beautiful Hub on 42nd. I do agree they wouldnt start ripping up hosin, but a few apt would pop up.
Originally all the low income housing round Ave D were built as upscale waterfront, was just the fact that the area was not easily accesible.
Who know what will start happening with talks or running a line closer now
And as to Red Hook, a new subway service or new trolley service (the latter is on hold, I believe, due to $$$ problems) would be the best thing that could ever happen to it.
And as to Red Hook, a new subway service
Is it the sort of place where an El would let loose a zillion NIMBYs?
Not likely. NIMBY would not be a significant problem there.
In fact, Brooklyn generally is pretty subway-friendly.
I don't really mind the noise. I live 1 block away from the 37 St/Culver EL. Ahem...Excuse me, I liveD 1 block away form the EL. I never really mind it, I like riding it and it's useful for getting me to Ave I/Culver on weekends, Prospect Av/4 Av during weekdays.
"Although areas like Maspeth are developed already, if they were to run a line through it, it would definately raise real-estate values and become very densely populated"
If you read my previous post, I showed you why that is not uniformly the case, although some elevation in dennsity is likely.
As it stands, Archer can't handle all of the "E" trains. How could they send R trains from Archer as well?
V express out of 179th is the same as the F, just as a different letter. It still ran via 63rd too, and still terminated at 2nd av, right? How could they turn all the V's (which would have been on F headways) at that station? Then, the V would have replaced the F in Brooklyn. I can't see the TA doing all of that.
And, How would rush hour Q expresses be able to run with the E/F(V in this plan) at the specified headways? That plan is chock full of holes my man.
The T.A wanted to place 2 6th ave services on Q.B[just like they have today],but they wanted the F to be the local,V/express along with some Q[this was part of the 3-1 plan=three track toward city AM and the same in reverse PM.]OF course this would be kinda hard to pull off,so the plan went back to study....] the best way to handle the problem with capacity? build the one track line along the LIRR with reverse signals as an superexpress. THIS VERY THING COULD BE [AND SHOULD BE]DONE RIGHT NOW,along with the LIRR construction to Grand Central. out in Jamaica, a ramp could be built from the LIRR to the J line into the Archer ave line,so no tunneling would be needed. there are many ways the problem could be addressed.you just have to keep looking for solutions to them and put your back into it.
"the best way to handle the problem with capacity? build the one track line along the LIRR with reverse signals as an superexpress."
This was the original proposal back in the 60s when they started work on the 63rd St tunnel.
Even then it was going to cost a lot of money.
Other postings here have said the LIRR ROW doesn't all have enough room for 5 tracks, so some tunneling would be required.
Actually, this topic has been brought up many times before, but that's not important.
There are reasons why NYCT routed the lines as they did:
by making the F run express through 63rd st, it forces local riders west of roosevelt to ride the V (or R). Passengers previously had to change for an "E" or an "F". Further, many people want to transfer to Lex trains at 53rd st. By sending the "V" through that tunnel, they were hoping to get more people off of the "F" train. The TA also expected that people would still want express service more, so the "E" was increased to 18tph (some extras coming out of 179th st).
But, everyone has just tried to jam themselves onto the "E" train. The Straphangers have suggested swapping the "F" and "V" trains, but that in no way solves anything.
By sending the "Q" into queens, you're assuming that Broadway ridership will be higher by doing this. Since both the "Q" and "R" will be the locals, you can bet that people riding into manhattan will definately forget about the "R" train, since the "Q" is express. And the E and F become bombarded with passengers again. (BTW, as for the 63rd st tunnel being faster than the 60th [or 59th], trains going thru that tunnel have reached 62mph. I don't think that 63rd st tunnel trains go faster than that).
The only real way to relieve crowding is to convince people to ride the locals.
R ridership is already at only 70%. Running the Q with the R means empty trains on both lines and even more crowding on the E/F lines.
The Queens Blvd. local will always run under 100% capacity, as long as people still have express service. The great thing about the V train is that it has drawn enough riders off the E & F that both are now running under crush capacity (98% for E, 95% for F, IIRC). That's a victory.
Nobody seems to want to call that a victory. They all think that the V should be changed.
People, for the most part, are idiots. Except us.
How about this quote from this week's "Mobilizing the Region" newsletter, which repeats the Straphangers' view that the F and V should be switched:
“I can’t stand it (the V line),” said Wendy Constat, a commuter who gets a ride the 179th Street station on Hillside Avenue. “Before, I used to take the F straight to Lexington, but now sometimes I have to transfer 3-4 times to get where I’m going."
3-4 times?? What the heck is she doing? But this is part of the "proof" that they use for why the F and V should be swapped.
She can still access 53rd St directly by utilizing the special E trains from 179th St. If not, a SIMPLE x-fer to the E at Union Tpke. is all she needs to do.
I suspect that she's one of those Queens Blvd riders who has to use the F and winds up transferring four times. Why?, because she's looking for Lexington Ave Express service, probably heading to lower Manhattan. If the rider uses the F and wants to get Lexington Ave Express service she has three options. One is to take the F to Lexington-63 St, then use the MetroCard transfer to the Lexington Ave Express at 59 Street. Great, except this entails a series of escalator rides just to get in/out of Lex-63rd Street (or an elevator ride, which could take a while). Then it's a three block walk outdoors. Then she deals with a VERY long flight of stairs down to the Lexington express platform. That's a good amount of time spent trying to complete a SINGLE transfer. The second option, take the F to the E to the 6 to the Lex Express (which she's probably doing). The third option, take the F to the R to the Lex Express at 59 Street. The last option may be the best option for her except that she has to get off at Roosevelt Av. to get the R. This means enduring five Queens Blvd Local stops. In short, taking the F off of 53rd Street Line REALLY inconveniences her (and a lot of other riders out there). That is one reason why there are a lot of people who want to have the F return to 53rd Street. She's not stupid. She's only using the options given to her and has a legitimate beef.
As I've stated before, I believe that having the Q run as the third Queens Blvd Express helps. The transfer that the Q has at Union Square to the Lex Express would be much more convenient than these three options I've mentioned. Of course this would have to wait until the Manhattan Bridge fully re-opens.
F to Roosevelt, 7 to Grand Central, Lex express there. Or F to 34th, Bway line to Union Sq. Lex express there.
She (and others) should just cope with a transfer and quit whining.
Or F to W4, A/C to Bway-Nassau. Or F to 34, N/R to City Hall or Rector. Or F to Continental, E to WTC. Or a north-south bus to the J/Z to Fulton or Broad.
Anyone who thinks it's worth changing trains twice to avoid riding a local for a few stops doesn't know how to use the subway.
I see what you're saying. They're other options into lower Manhattan. I admit now that the rider doesn't have a legitimate beef. Even when the F ran through 53 Street, she would still have to take two other trains just to reach the Lex Express. However, I've got to disagree with you with the whole express vs. local thing. If you can spend a little less time on the trains then why not take the opportunity? I think NYC riders (for the most part) know how to use the subway, and are using it correctly. They generally avoid the slower trains such as the N/R in lower Manhattan and the J/Z in Brooklyn because these lines are either really slow or not as fast as its express counterpart. For instance, taking the E from Jamaica Ctr to the 6 to the Lex Express will usually get you into lower Manhattan quicker than the J/Z even with the latter's skip-stop. Still you've made some good points.
"If you can spend a little less time on the trains then why not take the opportunity? I think NYC riders (for the most part) know how to use the subway, and are using it correctly."
Where there is a slower, but less crowded option, and a faster, but more crowded or complex option, there is no correct or incorrect route. It's purely a matter of preference. Everyone has their threshhold of how much discomfort they want to deal with, and the faster route gets just crowded enough so that you have a balance.
If I'm going from 14th to GCT, I can usually get a seat on the local or just barely squeeze in to the express. I make my choice depending on my mood, and maybe if an express looks too much like a sardine can I'll wait for a local.
Good point. I won't lie; there has been some days where I did not feel like waiting for the express. It is a mood thing.
However, I've got to disagree with you with the whole express vs. local thing. If you can spend a little less time on the trains then why not take the opportunity?
I knew I'd get a rise out of someone.
Because there's no point in walking and waiting for 5 minutes so you can save 2 minutes riding. Is your goal to minimize your time riding or to minimize the time it takes to reach your destination?
I think NYC riders (for the most part) know how to use the subway, and are using it correctly.
On the lines I ride, most passengers do know how to use the subway. They don't evacuate the local at the express stops unless an express happens to pull in right then. They'll gladly board the local at an express stop if the local happens to come first and it goes where they're going. Most of the time they get where they're going sooner than they would if they had waited for an express.
For instance, taking the E from Jamaica Ctr to the 6 to the Lex Express will usually get you into lower Manhattan quicker than the J/Z even with the latter's skip-stop.
No it won't. I worked it out from the schedules. Including a few minutes to make the transfer at 53/Lex and half the scheduled headways to account for waiting, the J/Z comes out ahead by (IIRC) two or three minutes. It comes out ahead in other ways, too. It comes out behind only in perception. Perceptions are often wrong.
Yeah David G., you certainly did get my attention.
As for your first point, our goal should be minimizing the amount of time it takes to reach our destination (which is what you're probably getting at). Admittedly on some lines (i.e. Central Park West, 8th Ave, 6th Ave) it's not worth it to go out of way to wait for a express train. On other lines (Brighton, Flushing, Pelham), its worth the wait, particularly when you live further away from midtown or lower Manhattan. I've seen expresses pass two and sometimes three different locals on a single run (for example, a single Q passing three different D local trains on the Brighton). The difference in time sometimes amount to about 8-10 minutes. You're correct though in stating it doesn't make sense to use three trains to avoid using a single local.
Ditto on your second point. People on the line I use generally don't leave the local unless either they live further from Manhattan on the line or see an express pull in at a station. I believe though in the case of the Queens Blvd line, people abandon locals at Roosevelt because the express comes very frequently and saves about 5 minutes.
As for the third point, are you sure??? I've heard people say that using that E-6-Lex Exp combination is quicker to lower Manhattan than staying on the J/Z during rush hours. Then again, I remember you once told me that the difference between the express and local on the CPW is about three minutes, which is absolutely correct.
Admittedly on some lines (i.e. Central Park West, 8th Ave, 6th Ave) it's not worth it to go out of way to wait for a express train. On other lines (Brighton, Flushing, Pelham), its worth the wait, particularly when you live further away from midtown or lower Manhattan.
As for the CPW run, I'm not sure. Once while going uptown, I let a C train pass at 59th st. I waited another 5 minutes for an A train, and while waiting a B train also passed. 1-2 mins. after the B train, the A train arrived. We caught the B train just after 81st, an the C train just before 116th. I got off at 125th to wait for a D train and the D train arrived at almost the same time as the C train.
I've seen expresses pass two and sometimes three different locals on a single run (for example, a single Q passing three different D local trains on the Brighton).
That's not really a good measure. When track work forced the E to run in Brooklyn on the local track, Fulton Expresses often overtook 2 or 3 E trains. But When the C train is the local only one train is passed. (on rare occasions 2). Scheduling is an important part too.
Of all the expresses, the useful ones are (to my knowledge/opinion):
Brighton, Pelham, Flushing, Fulton, Queens Boulevard, Lexington, 7th av., CPW(especially for riders on the A line north of 168th. or D riders).
The least useful ones are:
Broadway, Broadway Brooklyn, 4th av (brooklyn), 6th av, 8th av.
Note: I didn't count the Bronx-thru express, I've never rode it or observed it enough, and I didn't include discontinued expresses. If anyone could add about those.
CPW express vs. CPW local: If you have time, try getting on a CPW express at 59th with a CPW local right across the platform. Then get off at either 125 or 145 to wait for that same local. You can time it by looking at the clock in the station.
The other point about 2,3 locals being passed on a single trip: You're correct in saying that scheduling is a factor. My whole point about that is when an express passes that many local trains on a single trip and a local has to terminate nearby, you could probably expect delays on the local. For example, if I am heading to Coney Island and I board a Q, which comes right after a D I decided not to use. I pass 3 D locals before I reach Sheepshead Bay. I can board the 1st D at Sheepshead and save time. However if I board the D I decided not to use, not only would I lose time, but I'm probably facing delays because there are two D's ahead of me at CI that either has to get turned around or sent to the yard. I could lose about 8-10 minutes.
I hope I made sense...
By the way, the 5 is a pretty good express in the Bronx, compared with the 2.
That D issue, I hope there's no R68 slowness to stem from this. But as a frequent rider on the Brighton Line, you usually pass/meet one, and on those rare days, you'll see one more after you pull into Brighton that already left. But before anyone says the R68s are slow, passing 3 locals on the Brighton Line is rare.
-Speedy R68A Response Team
Excellent points.
David G. is correct when he states the J/Z is faster to lower Manhattan. The key is, the destination is really lower Manhattan, not a point closer to midtown.
I recently experienced a "wild card" in the local vs. express debate. I declined to board a southbound Broad Street line local here in Philly, at Erie Av station, because I saw approaching headlights while the local was still in the station, with doors open. "I think I'll take the express," I thought. It was about 7PM.
The local closed up and departed. The headlights, it turns out, stayed on the local track. They belonged to a work train - a set of four Kawasaki Broad Street line cars, the first modified to have no windows, and the other three traveling with all doors open (either the safety brake interlock had been disabled, or the doors had been removed altogether. I couldn't tell). It tooted its horn and rolled through without stopping. It was another 15 minutes till the next train - a local- so I got on that.
I killed 30 minutes like that. Should've gotten on the local.
I don't think it generally makes sense for most people to abandon their locals at Roosevelt, unless the train they're on doesn't take them where they need to go anyway. The express saves about four minutes, assuming no delays (and as we know, delays there are not unlikely, especially on the express track). The two expresses each run at four-minute rush hour headways, and they have no stops in common until W4, so I assume most of the crowd needs a specific express. Let's look at three cases: (a) the express you want is across the platform with its doors open, (b) the express you want just pulled out, and (c) you don't know how far away your express is. In (a), the mad rush across the platform is well-justified -- that express will probably save you about four minutes, and you know you won't have to wait for it. In (b), your express will probably come in about four minutes and (if the E) just catch up with the local at Queens Plaza. If you wait for an express, you've given up your seat for a four-minute wait on the platform followed by a ride on a crowded E train for no gain whatsoever. In (c), the average wait time for an E or an F is two minutes. If you get off the local and wait for an express, chances are you'll come out two minutes ahead (with the same caveats as before). If your only criterion is time, then it is indeed worth transferring. I do think most commuters do have some other criteria, like comfort, and if you managed to convince them that they're only saving two minutes in exchange for their comfort, I suspect many would opt for the comfort. Expresses invariably feel faster than they are.
Yes, I am sure of my third point. I worked out the times from the posted timetables and added a few minutes to make the transfer at 53/Lex. (I don't remember exactly how many, but I can't imagine a marathon runner making that transfer in less than four, and the average is probably closer to six.) I posted the details here about a month ago. It'll probably be easier to work it out yourself than to find my post: for the J/Z, add half the J/Z headway and the J/Z running time from Jamaica Center to Broad (make sure you're looking at the morning rush, when skip-stop and express are in effect). For the E, add half the E headway (only counting the 12 tph from JC), the E running time from JC to Lex, a few minutes for the transfer to the 6, a minute (my guess) from 51 to 42, half the headway of the combined 4/5, and the running time from 42 to Wall (which is one block from Broad, hence the proper point of comparison). The E and 4/5 certainly move faster than the J/Z, but the J/Z takes a more direct route. Another interesting comparison would be to the LIRR to Flatbush followed by the 1/2 or 4/5 to Wall, the M to Broad, or the N/R to Rector; of course, that comes at an added expense.
One more comment on my first point: if it's not rush hour, the average wait for the E or F will be greater than two minutes, so waiting for the express is less likely to save time. (OTOH, the express probably isn't uncomfortably crowded, so it's also less likely to result in extreme discomfort.)
I quite agree David about perceptions, but I believe that it's not just perceptions. I believe that the reasons why people prefer the express is the less stopping and going. Same reason why some people prefer the subway over the bus, even if they have to walk further to the subway and it's about the same amount of total time: stopping and going.
I think very few people care about stopping and going, aside from the perception that gives of a slow trip. If you convinced them that a trip with the stopping and going wasn't slow at all, or wasn't as slow as they'd imagined it, they'd flock to it. The hard part is convincing them.
"I think very few people care about stopping and going, aside from the perception that gives of a slow trip."
I definitely care about stopping and going if I'm standing on a crowded train. I'd rather stand on a crowded express than a crowded local, because of the jostling for position at each stop.
For instance, taking the E from Jamaica Ctr to the 6 to the Lex Express will usually get you into lower Manhattan quicker than the J/Z even with the latter's skip-stop
No way. The delays in 6 service during rush hours, and the time needed just to make the long, slow trek from the IND platform to the IRT platform compensates for any saved time using the express gives you.
Are you sure??? I've heard from other riders that riding the E-6-Lex Express would get you to lower Manhattan quicker than the J/Z during rush hours.
It's all pretty close to the same amount of time. Looking at the NYCT schedules in the morning rush:
The E takes 47 minutes to WTC.
The skip stop J also takes 47.
The E to Lex takes 30 minutes. Then 4 minutes to get to the 6, plus a 1 minute wait, plus 2 minutes to GCT, plus a 1 minute wait, plus 9 mins to BB or 13 mins to Bowling Green is 47 to 50 mins., with considerable variability because you may have to wait longer, and because 14th St may be all jammed up.
Based on these numbers, I'd settle in on the J or Z and know people wouldn't be standing on my feet the whole way in.
And those Lexington Ave numbers are idealistic, not realistic. It doesn't take into account the crowding which would force many riders to have to let a train go because you cannot squeeze into it. And the #6 has one of the longest average idling times at stations than any other route in the system.
You heard wrong. It'll get you into Manhattan faster, but then there's the slow crawl on the 6, and the long walking transfer at Lexington Ave.
Very good point. Your second option is probably the best way she could get a Lex Express. I had not considered that option. I take back most of what I said. She has no legitimate gripe, at least for now. I say this because even when the F went through 53rd Street, she would still have to transfer three times. Still, if the MTA ever decides to run the Q as a third Queens Blvd Express, it'll likely mean one less transfer to the Lex Express for Queens riders. That would have to wait though until the Manhattan Bridge is fully opened.
A less disruptive service change would be to take the 18 tph from Hillside (3 Es and 15 Fs) and regroup them as 9 Fs and 9 trains on a new service that goes QB express to E 53rd to 6th Ave.
This would allow all the benefits of the V and the 63rd St F, while still a allowing a considerable level of express service to E 53rd.
You have a good idea there. The only problem I see is that you would have 33 tph on the QB Express, (15 E's, 9 F's and 9 of your new express train). That's three more than capacity. If you could somehow get around that problem then your plan could work.
No, there are currently 15 Es, 3 of which come from Hillside. I'm suggesting making those into the new service, so you have 12 Es from Parsons, 9 Fs from Hillside, and 9 of the new service from Hillside.
Wait a minute!!!, disregard my last letter. You would have 12 E's, 9 F's and 9 of your new express service per hour. My fault. If 12 tph E is enough for passengers, then I believe your idea could work.
Sorry, I answered before looking at your 2nd post.
I don't understand why everyone keeps knocking the V! As it stands you have a Broadway (R) on the Queens local, and a 6th Ave (V) on the Queens Local. Why would they want to put the Q, a second Broadway train on the Queens local also? Then all the local service would only be going to Broadway. Now at least there is a choice between a 6th Ave or a Broadway on the local tracks on QB. This is also a step up from before the switch in December when you had an exodous form the G at Queens Blvd. I think they are doing the best routing with what they have. Sure the grand scheme of the original intent of the 63rd Street line is lost, but since this current 63rd ST line is what we have, this is the best arrangement, even if at the expense of the G line riders.
The only improvement to the V train would be to send it to Church and have express/local service in Brooklyn, with the F running Express and the V running local. Of course the current equipment shortage doesn't allow that at this time.
The only improvement to the V train would be to send it to Church and have express/local service in Brooklyn, with the F running Express and the V running local. Of course the current equipment shortage doesn't allow that at this time.
It would be nice to see this, and the R-143 order would end that shortage, but I doubt that this will happen.
Does anyone know if the bergan interlocking was ever replaced?
Don't forget the the Bergen St Station Lower Level also needs tile work, and some thought will have to be put into how to run the G without gumming up the works too much.
Bergen St can remain a local station if the V is extended to Church Ave. Church Ave could easily turn both V & G trains with ease.
Actually I never thought of that. Just because Bergen has a lower level, doesn't mean trains have to stop there. The trains can just pass through, like they do at Carroll St. The only difference is you will pass an abandoned station at Bergen, whereas at Carroll, there's nothing. There is no reason that Bergen has to be an express stop, just because it can. If they want to refurbish it, and retile it....great....but if not, that'll work also.
Correct, and this is the better solution, at least with an (F) (G) (V) alignment. Why? because someone waiting at Bergen would want to take the first train to Manhattan, and would not know to wait on the upper or lower levels to accomplish this.
(V) will need greater headways if you do this.
Elias
(V) will need greater headways if you do this.
9-10 TPH is more than adequate. Remember, these trains will not be as crowded coming into Bergen St. as the F running local currently does.
Actually, J Trainloco had an idea b4, but adding a bit more 4 though.
If after Jay Street, The F makes its normal switch to the upper level, Begen St & continue. The V would use the lower taccks, running express to 7th and Church Avenues.
After leaving Church Avenue Station, seems like the express tracks dips down, then 2 more express are created from the local line before it emerges, wondering if any can comfirm this: If there are submerged line/sections before the line becomes elevated.
The F line passes, (between Avenue I and 18th station) over the old LIRR Bay Ridge Branch (section not in commuter use now, but cuts clear across Brooklyn from the L to N line) the V could turn east and use this as far as Utica Avenue (embankment style stations)
Provide an express route, relieve congestion into Brooklyn on the F, allow for more passengers and provide service East Flatbush area, may turn and go as far as Kings Plaza Mall
The V to Brooklyn via the Culver would require more cars, and the F isnt' overcrowded, so I don't think we'll see it. I say cut the V train to 8 60'cars, and have it run on the Jamaica line replacing the J and Z. It would eliminate the need to switch on the narrow stairs at Essex.
That is another option, as opposed to just dead ending the V at Second Avenue. It would make the V more crowded in Manhattan too, as it wouldn't be near empty at West 4th (the Daily News' favorite spot to photograph the V to show how empty the V is, but that's another story) If trains were not a shortage, the V could run from Continental to Eastern Parkway or Canarsie, allowing the J/Z to run express through from Eastern Parkway, with the V running local from EP to Myrtle. If the Express track could handle the J/Z/V from Marcy to Myrtle, then the M could handle the local, as it does now, otherwise have the J/Z stay on the express, and have the M/V run local. The V would still get a fair share of the Broadway line's riders, as enough people use the Delancy-Essex transfer to make a one seat local train worth-while, even if it is local.
I dunno if the Broadway El can handle the J, M, Z and V trains all at once. Perhaps the V could run to Metropolitan in place of the M. Rush hours, you would be dealing with M trains switching onto the Broadway El delaying the V's or you would have to run fewer M's and V's, which given how infrequent the M already runs may not be so good. Plus, you end up with three lines, J, M and V, on one track in the reverse peak direction, which may severely limit the number of trains that can run on any one of those lines. But run the V in place of the M or J/Z and you solve that problem. It might be better to run the V in place of the M, because you would have to have another letter to replace the Z if the V replaces the J (more confusion up in Queens), or go back to all-stop rush-hour service on the Jamaica Ave El.
I would hate to see the M go, but since the trains already have an orange V, it would be easy to send it to Metro. The old M line to Metro would become an orange route as opposed to a brown one, as it would be running on 6th Ave.
Me too, but at least trains from Metro might become more popular and be more than just a shuttle during nights and weekends if they went to Midtown Manhattan.
Either an eight-car V replacing the M or a V train running local to Church Ave. would be workable once either the Manhattan Bridge is fully back in service or the Bergen interlocking is fixed, and the full R-143 order arrives to give the MTA enough railcars to extend the route.
If the V went via the Willie B to Metropolitan Ave., the M's rush hour service in South Brooklyn could be replaced by keeping the W train in operation as a Bay Parkway/Astoria local, while the N and Q operated over the express tracks on the Manny B. The main loss would be a rush hour connection to South Brooklyn from the Nassau Loop, but if the transfer from Jay St. on the A/C/F to Lawrence on the N (W)/R is built, that would solve some of that problem, at least at Fulton/Nassau.
If the V continued past Second Ave. via the Rutgers tunnel to Church Ave., the G could be extended from Smith-9th to Church and F could run express between Jay and Church, which would speed up the trip for passengers further south on the Culver line and at Church and 7th Aves. Carroll Gardens and some in Park Slope might complain about losing F service, but so long as the TPH for the V is relatively close to what the F runs, it should be do-able.
The main loss would be a rush hour connection to South Brooklyn from the Nassau Loop
What about having the J/Z continue on to Bay Parkway during rush hours, and to 9th Ave during the day?
If the MTA thought four lines on B'way in Manhattan was too much service, they could consider that plan, though like its distant ancestor, the CI-168th St. QJ train, it would create a very long Bay Parkway-Jamaica Center trip for rush hour train crews.
If the MTA thought four lines on B'way in Manhattan was too much service,
Why would they say that? 2 locals and 2 expresses sounds perfect.
They might think that four lines on Broadway (N/Q/R/W) and four lines on Sixth Ave. (B/D/F/V) were a little too much, as close to each other as they are between Union Square and 57th St. (eight full-time lines on both routes would be a record, if it ever came to pass).
Weren't there 8 combined lines pre Chrystie (N,Q,RR,QT,T,BB,D,F)?
Broadway needs 2 locals. 6th Ave MUST have 2 locals because the V & F cannot run express. I think current ridership demands would support 8 routes during the week.
Weren't there 8 combined lines pre Chrystie (N,Q,RR,QT,T,BB,D,F)?
Yes, but the BB and D did not serve brooklyn at that time. The only trains coming into manhattan from Brooklyn were the N (sea beach line), Q (Brighton exp.), QT(Brighton local, occasionally replaced by QJ), T(West End Train), RR(Bay Ridge), and F(Culver train not thru DeKalb). Only 6 of the 8 trains served south brooklyn/manhattan at any time, which has been maintained. (Look at the present, Q,Q,W,N,R,F or the pre flip plan B,D,Q,N,R,F)
"Yes, but the BB and D did not serve brooklyn at that time. The only trains coming into manhattan from Brooklyn were the N (sea beach line), Q (Brighton exp.), QT(Brighton local, occasionally replaced by QJ), T(West End Train), RR(Bay Ridge), and F(Culver train not thru DeKalb). Only 6 of the 8 trains served south brooklyn/manhattan at any time, which has been maintained. (Look at the present, Q,Q,W,N,R,F or the pre flip plan B,D,Q,N,R,F) "
The present time and the pre-flip time are not representative; Manhattan service is reduced below what the traffic would support because the bridge can't handle more.
There should be at least 6 services from Brooklyn into midtown Manhattan: 2 Brighton, 1 Sea Beach, 1 Bay Ridge, 1 West End, 1 Culver.
There should be at least 2 more Manhattan local services because of local Manhattan traffic. These don't go into Brooklyn if the traffic in Brooklyn doesn't justify it:
- an additional 6th Ave local (i.e., the V)
- an additional Broadway local (probably an Astoria to Whitehall W)
It would be inexcusable to have only 6-7 trains per hour in midday and evenings at places like Prince St, E 8th, 23rd St (BMT) and 14th and 23rd (6th Ave).
There should be at least 2 more Manhattan local services because of local Manhattan traffic. These don't go into Brooklyn if the traffic in Brooklyn doesn't justify it:
- an additional 6th Ave local (i.e., the V)
- an additional Broadway local (probably an Astoria to Whitehall W)
It would be inexcusable to have only 6-7 trains per hour in midday and evenings at places like Prince St, E 8th, 23rd St (BMT) and 14th and 23rd (6th Ave).
The 6th av local doesn't need two lines. The F alone has something to the effect of 12 tph, and when 6th av was the bridge service, 15tph. Safe to Say that the V will stay though, even though having 20tph on the local is unnesecary.
On Broadway though that extra local IS needed. You could just have more R short turns, or add the W, whatever fits the bill.
The F runs frequently during rush hours but at other times it has relatively long headways. Given that one of the local stops is a transfer point, there needs to be more service there than the current F provides, whether that's done by increasing F service, by running an additional off-peak service, or by switching one of the peak expresses onto the local track off-peak.
"The F runs frequently during rush hours but at other times it has relatively long headways"
I've never had to wait longer than 10 minutes for an F, and usually a lot less than that, even outside of rush hour. F service, schedule-wise, is exceptionally good.
I've never had to wait longer than 10 minutes for an F, and usually a lot less than that, even outside of rush hour. F service, schedule-wise, is exceptionally good.
It didn't used to be. I used to be a regular F user about 8 years ago and it was horrible back then. They must have improved it.
Now the 6 is another story, that line is exceptionally good, I'm not a regular user now anymore, but it was great when I used to use it everyday.
The F is good schedule-wise, but bunching of trains can seriously hurt the F line.
That does happen sometimes. DON'T HOLD THE DOORS.
That could be the problem I used to experience. I used to get on at Delancey, Brooklyn Bound, and at Jay Street, Queens Bound. I only used it for that length, but I would typically wait quite a while. It is sort of at the middle of the line, so I guess the bunching could have been the problem.
I get the A train at Jay St. This gives me time to watch the F trains go by some times. I've noted that three of them can come real close together. Jay st seems to be the only station where trains are held in that vicinity, all the way to 2nd av. So, it seemed quite common to see an F on the heels of another one, but the problem wasn't corrected until Jay st.
A major annoyance is having to transfer to the E from the F at Union Turnpike in the afternoon rush. Almost universally, 2 or 3 F trains will pass before an E rolls in.
The F runs at 8 TPH all day long, as opposed to the usual 6 TPH. 6th Ave is the one trunk line which can survive with only 1 local.
"6th Ave is the one trunk line which can survive with only 1 local."
It can survive. People would be able to fit into the trains. So could 8th Ave or Broadway survive. It would just be a lower quality of service for a comparable number of customers.
If you skimp at all, the non-IRT lines should really have 2 locals and 1 express in mid-day.
If you skimp at all, the non-IRT lines should really have 2 locals and 1 express in mid-day.
Indeed there is tracks capacity to run all non-IRT lines local in mid-day Monday - Friday (CPW: 24tph, 8th Av: 20tph, Broadway: 30tph, 6th Av: 26tph), with the exception of fitting both Broadway (Manhattan) and Nassau St service through the Montague St Tunnel (The M,N,Q,QX,R,W would add up to 36tph).
Neither West Side (31tph) nor East Side (34tph) IRT would be able to run all local in mid-day Monday - Friday.
However, Late Nights and Weekends, it is theoretically possible to run everything local. Evenings, it is theoretically possible except for the Montague St Tunnel problem (35tph)). This is not to say it would be a good idea, but it is possible.
How does that make it exceptionally good? Midday and weekend headways on most B Division lines hover around 10 minutes. Considering that 14th Street is a local stop and a transfer point, a good number of people use the F to go one or two stops so they can transfer from an express to the L or 1/2/3. That's a long wait for a 2-minute ride. (And obviously you haven't done much late night riding -- at night, the standard headways on all lines, including the F, is 20 minutes.)
I definitely think that, rather than running one late night local and one late night express, both trains should run local at night. That's become standard practice on most other lines, but would be particularly useful on 6th Avenue, where half the local stops are transfer points. The express run there saves through passengers about one minute, but it costs late night local passengers an average of five minutes, or ten minutes if they have to transfer from the express to the local.
And nights and weekends it's now particularly irritating that to get from 14th or 23rd and 6th Ave to E 53rd St or Queens Plaza, the obvious route takes 3 trains: F to D to E. (Yes I know there are non-obvious, indirect routes that cut it down to 2 trains).
"The F alone has something to the effect of 12 tph"
The MTA schedule I have says 8 tph in mid-day, and as others have pointed out, there's a lot of bunching. The V is 6 tph, so that makes 14. I've often waited 8 minutes for EITHER a V or F to show up.
Sorry, I was thinking of rush hour service. I hadn't realized that the previous poster said off-peak.
Agreed. Even though 8 lines may service both trunks, only 6 need to go into Brooklyn. One of the B'way locals can end at Whitehall, and the V currently ends at 2nd Ave.
PRE 1967-D Avenue Exp via Culver[to Coney Island] BB 6 Ave Local[to 34th st]F 6ave Exp[to Second ave or 34th st nights/weekend] N Bway exp [57st to Coney island]Q Broadway Express[57st or Astoria to Brighton beach]T Broadway exp [Astoria to Coney Island rush hours]QB/QT Broadway local[Astoria to Coney Island via bridge or tunnel]TT West End short line[ Chambers st or 36st to Coney Island]RR Bway local[71-Continental ave or 57st to 95 st]M Bankers speaial[Nassau loop to Coney Island]no15 Jamaica local/exp[168 st Jamaica to Broad st only] 1967 = B 168 st or West 4 st to Coney Island 6ave exp,D 205 st to Coney Island 6ave exp via Brighton line,F 179TH st to Coney Island via CULVER 6Ave exp,N SAME AS BEFORE,QB 57 st to Coney Island via Bway Brighton Exp rush hours,EE 71 ave to Whitehall st Bway local,RR Astoria to 95st Bway local, QJ 168th st Jamaica to Coney Island or Broad st via Jamaica/Nassau st line. WHEW.... I hoped that helped you guys.......
I don't think southern Brooklyn riders would live with the loss of Nassau St. service. The M is patronized quite a lot during rush hours between Pacific St. & Chambers St. As for Carroll Gardens riders complaining about the loss of F service, the new V line would be identical to the old F in Manhattan as well as the trains being less crowded due to people traveling south of Church Ave not utilizing it. Hey, you could actually get a seat in the AM rush!
Problem is the Broadway (Bklyn) Line is limited to eight cars, while Queens Blvd trains use ten (and need 12).
-Hank
OTOH, the V runs at only half capacity from Queens to Manhattan. If it's not too much of an operational headache to dedicate certain consists for V service, maybe shorter V trains would kill two birds with one stone -- less excess capacity on the Vs and compatibility with the Jamaica El.
Actually it may work if they shortened the V trains to fit the 8 car limit on the Eastern Division.
With V ridership hovering around 50%, I'm re-thinking the idea of using 480' V trains in Queens.
Thats the point, the F line isn't crowded; it may be the least congested coming in and out of Brooklyn. That is the reason I say it could take more usage. The un used express track and the old Bay Ridge line could provide relief to most of Midwood, Flatbush & East Flatbush which heavily used/congested Brighton and numbered lines. As for the cars, what happened to the ones ripped from the G line, and why does the M train have to come all the way into Brooklyn?
The idea u posted is not a bad on either. (just a side thought, imagine if the F line did as u said, but ran in a complete loop Queens Blvd, 6th Ave, Jamaica, we'd have a true city loop)
As for the stairs at Essex, the way construction is going, those stairs may be expanded soon enough. Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn is being expanded currently, use to be similar
The idea u posted is not a bad on either. (just a side thought, imagine if the F line did as u said, but ran in a complete loop Queens Blvd, 6th Ave, Jamaica, we'd have a true city loop)
Actually, a while back we had a thread about the "loop". It's possible to run a train from Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center. You start at JC upper level, QB, run down 8th or 6th Ave to Chyrstie Street, Broadway el to Jamaica Center lower level. Now which would be the northern terminal.......Jamaica Center or Jamaica Center......and both ends of the train would say Jamaica Center. And the sides of the train would say Jamaica Center Jamaica Center.
I guess the reason they didn't create a line like that, is because, it's so confusing.
N Bwy
Probably the reason why it's not as crowded as the other lines, is it's a local in Brooklyn.. The entire route.
N Bwy
That's not a bad idea. The F always reaches crush loading at Delancey in the AM's.
The V to Brooklyn via the Culver would require more cars, and the F isnt' overcrowded, so I don't think we'll see it. I say cut the V train to 8 60'cars, and have it run on the Jamaica line replacing the J and Z. It would eliminate the need to switch on the narrow stairs at Essex.
The Williamsburg Bridge trains carry fewer rush hour passengers than those using the Rutgers St tunnel. OTOH, if you want to match service to where there is demand on the Eastern Division, start improving 14th St service.
OTOH, if you want to match service to where there is demand on the Eastern Division, start improving 14th St service.
It's a shame that the 14th Street line wasn't built to four tracks like the Fulton Subway, or even three tracks. I think it would have been a very useful, and more used line.
It's a shame that the 14th Street line wasn't built to four tracks like the Fulton Subway, or even three tracks. I think it would have been a very useful, and more used line.
My above phrase can be confusing. I mean more used than it is now, not more used than the Fulton subway........
Even with all those tight curves? Unless a shorter route is created for the express, this might be useful.
N Bwy
THE F (Brooklyn/ Lower Manhatan portion) is not over crowded!!!!!! WHAT???????????????? No, it doesnt have the volume of the Queens portion, but it IS heavily used. And supposedly, there are currently station upgrades at Delancey Essex to include more stairways to transfer btwn trains (I dont see HOW, but that's what I am told!!!! TOny
Afternoon most of the F lines congestion is from 34th, build up down the line, then the added bulk at Jay Street from the A, most empty out at Carroll, 7th Street, Church Avenue, same opposite in the morning
The F does get congestion, but when I said the F line is not overcrowded, meant in comparison to the Brighton and numbered lines, which can get congested well into the night, using both the express and local tracks.
The F line gets congested, but has and alternative unlike the other line. If u use the lower level, so now 2 lines could accomidate the culver line
- V would run expess pass Bergen Street) all the people that crowd the line are trying to get to 7th and Church Avenue from Jay Street Stations
- Fline would maintain its route, but now nt have the stress of all those passengers. the Carroll St and 4th ave can take the F
instead of having an empty V line in Brooklyn now, it could go further, using the old Bay Ridge line and cut over trough east Flatbush, relieving a bit more of all that congestion on the Brighton and numbered lines
If most passengers are going to points north of Church, wouldn't it make more sense to run both the F and V as Brooklyn locals (to Church) than to send one express? The express would be largely empty, much like the W Astoria express was.
You missed a part of the plan:
instead on one, 2 lines would now be entering via F Line: F & V
The F line currently has to deal with all the congestion.
An express V would take passengers for 7th Avenue and Church Avenue off the F line, releaving that bottle necking effect in that area
* After Church avenue: Ditmas, 18th Avenue, before avenue I, passing under is the LIRRs Bay Ridge branch (an embank trench, the V could be extended onto this to serve East Flatbush, so the V wouldnt be empty, the crowds that flock to the number & Brighton lines would have a new route, also helping people get across (east-west)
After Church avenue, 2 trached seem to dip down, wondering if those can stay sumberged for 5 blocks to the LIRR old line, then use that
It makes little sense for the F to be the local and the V express. The people traveling further should have the express run, not the short timers.
-Hank
* After Church avenue: Ditmas, 18th Avenue, before avenue I, passing under is the LIRRs Bay Ridge branch (an embank trench, the V could be extended onto this to serve East Flatbush, so the V wouldnt be empty, the crowds that flock to the number & Brighton lines would have a new route, also helping people get across (east-west)
HOW MUCH MONEY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
N Bwy
Have not worked out the cost, but considering the embankment is already exist, that knocks the cost one out; would just have to be shaped up for usage.
This section could remain 2 local tracks running about 2.5 miles over to Utica Aveune About 7 or 8 embankment stations; 2 being tranfer station access to the Brighton and the 2/5 line.
Was trying to confirm earlier: After Church Avenue, but before the line train emerges, the express tracks appears to dip down to a lower level and 2 more express track are created from the local line, so the line emerges as 4 tracks again. Does the express line dip down to a lower level?
If not, this would probably be the most expensive section, to now tunnel under the F the distance of 2 stations to access the old Bay Ridge Branch
May be cheaper and easier to just branch a line after 18th street east and decend again down into the trench, but this seems too cumbersome
"instead of having an empty V line in Brooklyn now, it could go further, using the old Bay Ridge line and cut over trough east Flatbush, relieving a bit more of all that congestion on the Brighton and numbered lines"
Good Idea.. Except, I would probably terminate the F at Church Avenue during the time when the V is running.. Which will be rush hour only.
N Bwy
["instead of having an empty V line in Brooklyn now, it could go further, using the old Bay Ridge line and cut over trough east Flatbush, relieving a bit more of all that congestion on the Brighton and numbered lines"]
And what ROW would the NY & Atlantic RR use?
It is just one track down the center of this trench from the N line up until Albany Avenue. That one has served them well, also which is bearly used currently. After Albany, it branches into 2 before become fully elevated at Glenwood/Utica Avenues.
The branch would provide just local service, 2 tracks. The trench could handle 3 tracks, the 2 for the subway, the center for, the center for NY and Atlantic RR usage. The subway line could turn off Glenwood Avenue (allowing the RR to branch back two track) then south on Utica Avenue
After Albany, it branches into 2 before become fully elevated at Glenwood/Utica Avenues.
Reduce it to one and squeeze two Subway Tracks in. You yourself say:
That one has served them well, also which is bearly used currently.
Okay, a couple of passing places might need to be built, but a another Brooklyn - Queens Line further out would have quite some use.
Suggestion:
(NG) Train - stops: 4th Avenue (new Terminal), 8th Av (N), Ft Ham Pkwy (N), New Utrecht Av (M)(N)(W), 18th Av, McDonald Av (F), E 8th St, E 15th St (Q)<Q>, E 23rd St, Flatbush Av (2)(5), Albany Av, Utica Av, Ralph Av, Remsen Av, Rockaway Av, New Lots Av (L), Livonia Av (1)(L), Sutter Av (L), Atlantic Av (L), Broadway Junction (A)(C)(J)(L)(Z), Bushwick Av / Aberdeen St (L), Wilson Av (L), Cypress Av, Myrtle Av, Metropolitan Av (M), Eliot Av (M)-ext, Grand Av (M)-ext, Queens Bvd (M)-ext, Jackson Heights Interchange (M)-ext, Northern Bvd, 50th St, Steinway St, 31st St / Ditmars Bvd Astoria (N)(W).
Confused about the point u are trying to make…
The old Bay Ridge Line ran in a trench from the N to the L trains. Currently it is just one track down the center of this trench till about Albany avenue (2 miles east of the Culver Line (F)). In the next half a mile (before Utica Ave) it become 2 tracks, then elevated.
Jerrery asked the question before: "And what ROW would the NY & Atlantic RR use"
That is the one track they use, which serves them well. The point I was making was a subway could run with the track still in place:
Center for NY & Atlantic RR usage
Outer 2 tracks for subway usage
As for ur suggestions: your basically running another Brooklyn-Queens line via: LIRR old Bay Ridge Branch, NY, Atlantic Amtrack, the line that cuts across Queens and over Randalls Is, what does anyone else think about that?
Especially after Jay Street when A/C passengers transfer to the F.
N Bwy
The ''Kings Hwy short turns could be used as ''V'' trains during rush hours,
Not without cutting F service by 50%
how many tph? does the F have during rush?
And couldn't some of those displaced R40/42 cars from the L line be used to on the V or F ?
12-14 in both directions, IIRC. However, half of these terminate/originate at Kings Highway. You can't simply replace those trains with V trains.
You can't simply replace those trains with V trains.
Why Not?????????
yeah..WHY NOT?!!!
Umm, because Hillside ave service would suddenly be cut 50%!! And Queens Blvd express by 25%! Yeesh, tink about it!
People tend to forget that most lines have ridership needs at both ends. This is the main reason why most of the planned extensions of the Q line into Queens are totally unrealistic.
The reason why those extensions are unrealistic is because people want to increase service where it isn't needed (Adding the Q is pointless when the "R" already runs there under capacity.
"The reason why those extensions are unrealistic is because people want to increase service where it isn't needed (Adding the Q is pointless when the "R" already runs there under capacity."
Is the "R" still underutilized, and at what capacity? Is it worse than before since the V was brought into service? Comparing the two lines... Who have the higher ridership, R or V? Thanks for your reply.
N Bwy
Who have the higher ridership, R or V?
Definitely the (R). I can't recall the exact figures, but the (R) is about 70% full and the (V) about 50%.
hmmmmmm... I guess because the R is more established than the V line.. and people haven't gotten use to it.. But I still think the R should be fuller than it is.. Especially since it connects to the Lexington Avenue line.
N Bwy
(Does anyone know if the bergan interlocking was ever replaced?)
Contract awarded 6/18/02, with a 36 month duration.
Not only does it limit Queens local to Bway-only service, this silly plan makes it impossible for Queens local riders west of Roosevelt Ave from accessing 53rd. St in any capacity short of backtracking back to Roosevelt Ave.
Let's can all these idiotic & DUMB ideas and accept the fact that the current configuration is the BEST way to utilize 63rd. St.
I totally agree.
Henry Szablicki, 63rd Drive customer.
This is also a step up from before the switch in December when you had an exodous from the G at Queens Blvd.
Sorry, Typo. I meant Queens Plaza, not Queens Blvd.
During the AM rush, crowding on E trains is basically limited to the first car, because everyone just has to be in that car to make the transfer to the 6 train. This gives the illusion that there is overcrowding on the E train. Truth is, there's plenty of room on those trains, if people would just have enough common sense to spread out.
Common sense? Subway passengers?
Excuse my laughter!
-Hank
IDEA! Cut out the first car so the doors in that car don't open at Roosevelt. Pull past the station so that people who want the first car end up in the second.
Actually, if this idea could be implemented successfully we may be able to get 12 car trains... If (when the R-160's come in) the doors could be cut out from the C/R console there could be a "first 2 cars" / "last 2 cars" will not platform at various stations. Since some stations can still comfortably fit 11 cars they could allow 11 cars to open there.
And don't say it will be too confusing. Commuter RR riders and conductors are quite used to restricted openings of doors, subway riders would have to either wise up or stay out!
The "underutilized" (as you call it, I don't agree) "Q" is a temporary situation through 2004 due to Manhattan Bridge work. Assuming your plan were adapted, how would 6th Ave express service be restored?
--Mark
"Assuming your plan were adapted, how would 6th Ave express service be restored?"
Send one of the two Brighton services to 6th Ave, the other to Broadway.
However, the fact that you can still operate this plan after 2004 doesn't make it a good idea.
I agree it isn't a good idea -- but, in fact, it could only run after 2004. Nobody's pointed out that 57/7 can't have some trains terminating on the express tracks and others running through on those same express tracks.
Assertion:
"Nobody's pointed out that 57/7 can't have some trains terminating on the express tracks and others running through on those same express tracks"
Refutation:
My plan DOESN'T call for some trains to terminate while others pass through. You are corrrect: That would be very hard to do. But my plan had both Q services (That's Q circle, and Q diamond) continuing on to Q.B.
-Andrew Merelis
Your references to diamond Qs are hard to read because you write the diamond Q with brackets and no spaces. That's interpreted as meaningless HTML, with the result that the whole diamond Q disappears.
How would you get <, Q and > to follow eachother on screen when using HTML?
< = <
> = >
& = &
When you do this, Do NOT preview. If you must preview, don't click post from the preview screen, go back and click post from here.
I think it also works to leave spaces between the brackets and the Q.
As in: < Q >
<Q>
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh & thanks, Pig!
I used the codes correctly, but I didn't give the correct ones, I omitted the semicolons from the displayed codes, I will now correct for those of you who may have been misled:
< = <
> = >
& = &
My mistake. I apologize.
I can't imagine the R and both Q's being turned at Continental under current rules. That's why the G was cut back -- not because of track capacity. (Incidentally, your service levels are off, too. The E and F each run at 15 tph now; I'm not sure about the others.)
Your plan suffers from a loss of flexibility. All expresses go to 53rd. All locals go to Broadway. Unless you have reason to believe that express passengers overwhelmingly want 53rd and local passengers overwhelmingly want Broadway, a more flexible arrangement -- like the one currently in place -- would be better.
David G is right in stating this. For now, I think this is the best that the MTA can do with the Queens Blvd Line, considering the amount of resources available. I believe that the V should continue to exist, because it can become a more useful route in the future. Also, without the V, G riders wanting a Queens Blvd local stop would have to use THREE different trains just to get to their stop. That would be totally unfair to them
"I can't imagine the R and both Q's being turned at Continental under current rules. That's why the G was cut back -- not because of track capacity."
I certainly wouldn't agree. Track capacity is an issue (however, switching, turning trains, signalling system efficiency and physical capacity all interact with each other and improvements to one will help the others as well).
Ah, but is the Q service terminating at 57/7 really temporary? With the restoration of the north side of the bridge, where do you propose terminating the Q? Sixth Ave Express service will be covered by the B and D when they can run over the bridge again.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Q "disappear" and have D trains run to both Brighton as expresses and Stillwell as locals .... I mean, the Q can't terminate at Queensbridge anymore ....
--Mark
Who knows, they may keep the Q & W as is now, and just add back the D, not sure about the B
Brighton Line (D) All times (LCL) / (Q) Day times. (EXP)
West End Line (W) All times (LCL) / (B) Day times. (EXP)
Culver Line (F) All times (LCL) / (V) Day times. (EXP)
Sea Beach (N) All Times / (M) Day Times
Fourth Avenue (R) All Times
Elias
As I see it the (D) (6ht Ave Exp) will run to Coney Island via Brighton Local at all times
And the (Q) (Broadway Express) will run to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express during day times. The question then becoms: where shall the Uptown (Q) terminal be. It *could* be at 57th Street, though I'd rather see it run all the way to 179th Street. This way you have 6th Ave, Bway and 8th Ave Express trains from Hillside,
and you would have 6th Ave and Bway Locals from Continential.
I always thought that it was better to look at the crossings first, so:
53rd St: (E) (V) or I'd call it an (FF)
60th St: (R) (N) (W)
63rd St: (F) (Q)
And I'd adjust the Exp tph to Hillside so that these services would fit.
Elias
eventually, as the plans are drawn up now for the 2nd Ave line so far through the 63rd Street tunnel:
Manahattan side, from Broadway Express line, a brach will cut off and turn north up 2nd av
Queens side, a branch will cut south down 2nd ave
and the 2nd ave line would run under all of this, connecting north and south branches
And we're a minimum of three years from the first shovel being turned, so it has no relevance whatsoever.
-Hank
Except the 2nd ave line is not expected to be completed in any way shape or form until at least 2015.
The negative: Less express trains to 51st street. Bad. This is bad, because this is where many, if not most long distance riders of the Q.B. line are going. Bad.
Good. People will have to change their ridership behavior. Access to 53rd. St. has not been significantly reduced by the V train.
Q.B. Local:
R - 9 TPH
Q - 6 TPH
- 6 TPH
Total 21 TPH
(funny how this still leaves room for G service!)
Funny how it also screws Brignton line riders which already must deal with inadequate 9TPH rush hour headways in Brooklyn.
I have said it before and have to say it again the Q line will never operate to Queens via Queens Blvd.
When 2nd Avenue is complete the Q will provide the service operating from 57th St/7th Ave to Lexington Ave/63rd Street which will become a major transfer station and continue to 125th Street via 2nd Avenue but this is 8 years away.
When the Manhattan Bridge reopens to both 6th Ave and Broadwy service in 2004 the Q will remain exactly like the current Diamond Q Brighton Express/Broadway Express only and the B and D will return to their old service pattern then what happens?
FACT-There is no additional room for Queens Blvd Express Service
FACT-The G will terminate at Queens Plaza at a new level to be built in conjuction to a new Division B Sunnyside Yard.
I believe that the R line will return to 24 hour service to Continental Ave
Once additonal equipment is obtained extend the V to Eastern Parkway via the old K Line. The Bushwick and Williamsburg sections of Brooklyn are growing and a one seat ride to Midtown is needed. Also the L line is so overcrowded off peak now even with a 8 minuate headway middays they are standees by the time the L gets to Grand Street.
Thank You
I believe that the R line will return to 24 hour service to Continental Ave
At present, the E,F and G all service Queens Blvd. at night. I don't think that the "R" will return to 24 hour service other than the shuttle it already is.
The G will terminate at Queens Plaza
Thank You
The only reason why the G runs on Queens Blvd. late nights now is because people chose this as a bargain. previous to this E and F trains were the locals. If the G terminates at Queens Plaza, it's safe to say that the F will run local again.
Also, there's no reason why the "G" couldn't terminate at Queens Plaza late nights right now. E trains only arrive every 20 minutes. G trains could use the turnaround they used for decades when they terminated at Queens Plaza off-peak hours. Safe to say that passengers would still want that late-night extended G, no matter how inconsequential it is.
Sure there is a reason, they don't want to spend the extra money.
They are trying to close QP 24/7. Now the G is often OPTO and shorter so if someone gaps there is no one around to move the train. Unless you made QP the terminal and the you would have to add crew facilities and kill some of the million rats on the south end of that station.
Ct Sq is not a 24/7 facility so you can't do a Bedford/205 type deal.
Sometimes Worktrains also need to use the turnaround so that is another problem late at night.
Queens Blvd can survive with only one local anyway. As I have previously stated the E,F and G usually come within 5 minutes of each other, the E and G leaving 71st within 2-3 minutes of each other. A second local really does not add much. Also there is a trend to get all the OT out of the F jobs, keeping it express helps this alot.
"FACT-The G will terminate at Queens Plaza at a new level to be built in conjuction to a new Division B Sunnyside Yard."
Is this project part of the capital budget?
I believe so
Thank You
As of May 16, 2002 (the date the revised Capital Program was submitted to the MTA Board), construction of a G train terminal at Queens Plaza was NOT in the Capital Program -- not design, and not construction.
David
Take a look at a track map of the Queens Plaza station and you can see what the problem is with buildng a new G terminal -- the G tracks between Court Square and QP are sandwiched in above by the Queens-bound 11th St. cut crossing over so the R can reach the station, while the Brooklyn-bound G track is sandwiched in from below by the E/V tracks crossing under before the 23rd-Ely station on their way to Manhattan.
To build a new G terminal at Queens Plaza on the mezzanine level would require lowering the tunnel from the 11th St. cut to QP and building a new tunnel for the G to ramp up to the mezzanine. That's the easy option. Building one below the current QP platforms would require dropping the G tracks two levels lower at Court Square -- or at least the Brooklyn bound track, to get it under the tracks headed for the 53rd St. tunnel, since there's not enough distance between Court Square and Queens Plaza to ramp the G tracks down to a new station. That option would really cost a chunk of change, and is unlikely to heppen.
The other option would be two new tracks connecting up at the east end of the QP station and rising up towards the new Sunnyside yard that could be used to turn G trains. That would be the most logical option, since the tracks would serve a dual purpose, but G trains finishing up and starting their runs at the existing platform would have to be synched up to avoid delaying R trains entering and leaving from the same platforms.
Thank you for posting that.
The new yard, yes. A new level at Queens Plaza, No.
-Hank
Hank,
At the MTA meeting when the 63rd Street service changes was approved it was said that a new lower level will be built for G trains to terminate at Queens Plaza.
It was estimated it will take 4 to 5 years to complete.
Thank You
Which meeting was this? At MTA headquarters? Did the MTA board say this?
Tell me where to find it in writing on the MTA site.
-Hank
I've never seen it myself. An idea like that was floated in a letter by me and others at one time to the MTA, but in the context of a larger discussion, not as a serious proposal. I did make specific proposals which were subsequently accepted.
But this (the new lower level of QP) was not seriously considered by MTA. In fact, when I posted the idea of a new 2-track ramp to a Queens Plaza lower level on Subtalk, other Subtalkers replied (see the archives) that the engineering was too complicated, due to the required grade, soil conditions, etc. and would not be worth doing ($100 million expense).
Would it be possible to make Queens Plaza wider? A fifth platform face would be all the G Train would need to terminate; or even a bay platform.
That is an interesting idea. Yes, I suppose the station could be wider.
Question: Would buildings on either side need to be condemned, or at least underpinned (foundations rebuilt)? Would Queens Plaza remain open during this construction? If train service was not interrupted you would have a multi-year project similar to the 63rd St Connector's - where a four-track tunnel segment was enlarged to six tracks.
It's a good idea, but be prepared to spend a lot of money.
I feel that according to the original plans for 63 st,the Northern Blvd station should have been built[still should]so at least there would be an option for riders coming from Manhattan[no tranfers] and likewise from the 179th street branch.
Northern Blvd. station? You mean a new express station at Northern Blvd. and 41 Avenue? This would add an extra stop to all trains in that corridor. The two stops would be very, very close together
There is precedent for that; two Miami Metrorail's stops downtown are little more than a block or two apart; the Market-Frankford line's stops in Center City Philly are two-three blocks apart. Boston's Downtown Crossing and Park stations (under the Common) are very close together.
Would our finicky express riders go for that?
there was a plan for it while the 63rd was being built. The stop was gonna be right where[or near]the High school at 29th and 41 st. It was dropped when they fugde the money up and didn't know what else to do with the line......
FACT-The G will terminate at Queens Plaza at a new level to be built in conjuction to a new Division B Sunnyside Yard.
It is not a "FACT" unless you post the link or complete url to where this is specified on the MTA website or one of the major daily newspapers, or the name, job title and phone number of your contact at NYCT to substantiate your assertion. Either do this promptly or withdraw your assertion, because bogus "facts" serve no purpose other than making you look foolish.
Once additonal equipment is obtained extend the V to Eastern Parkway via the old K Line.
Or merge it with the other line that terminates in Manhattan - the Jamaica Line. It would be quite weird seeing F, J and V trains as 6th Avenue Locals...
first off,not a bad idea,but like every other plan that is brought up here,it wont happen.we can come up with all the plans we want,the TA is the one who decides ultimately what to do,not us.the way i see it and only hope it happens in the near future,the (V) train will remain,forever?who knows.possible extention to brooklyn? it'll happen when the R160's start coming in i bet'cha.the (Q) train will get extended to QB via 63rd and Broadway when the 160's also come in.question remains whether it'll be to 71AV or 179th St.the rest im sure will remain the same
I think the V Train needs to terminated from the NYC Subway System and put it back to normal, as for the Q trains replacing the V, Hell No!
So you advocate making the system worse than it currently is? I haven't seen ideas like that since the 1970's!
No, No, No, No..... I meant they need to have the V Train leave the system because it has less ridership and the E & F Trains are still overcrowded.
OK - so let's use your plan: cancel the V and install seating on the roofs of the E and F trains, because that's obviously better than putting those passengers on a V train (and you don't even need air conditioning that way).
"I meant they need to have the V Train leave the system because it has less ridership and the E & F Trains are still overcrowded"
Before 12/2001, there were 30 E and F trains per hour. Their average rush hour occupany was about 106%. In other words, there were 32 tph worth of people stuffed into 30 tph.
Now there are still 30 E and F tph. Their average occupancy is about 90%, which is still very high, but less bad than before. There are now about 27 tph worth of people somewhat stuffed into 30 tph worth of trains. It's not always perfect; some trains (usually Es) are more crowded than others.
Where did the 5 tph worth of people go? TO THE V!!! There are 10 tph of V trains, at 50% occupancy.
So how does abolishing the V help matters? Where are those 5 tph worth of people going to go, if not bac to the same nmber of E and F trains?
But E & F service is no longer overcrowded. Both are running under 100% capacity for the first time in decades. Thanks to the V train siphoning off enough people to do so.
The V train is currently running on its normal route. You want to make it abnormal?
Back before this plan took place, I suggested the V trains be 6-car r-26 units, but everyone told me that I was wrong. Well, now I have the solution to the TA's problem.
there aren't enough A-A units to run V trains as 6 car R-46's. Instead, have the V swap cars with the E train, and have it run 8 car R-32 trains. (The E could retain R-32's the V doesn't need). This way, V trains increase from 50% capacity to something closer to 65%, and the TA saves on maintenance costs. Plus, there'll be even more cars available to use at Jamaica yard.
That's an interesting way to conserve rolling stock and apportion it more effectively.
Worth considering.
I agree. With 480' V trains, they might be able to restore 450' G trains, which might placate G riders somewhat. But the TA is convinced that the more popular R46 will attract more riders to the V.
But the TA is convinced that the more popular R46 will attract more riders to the V.
What the...? As if the ordinary Subway rider will say "Ooooh look, that train's an R46 - won't that be SO much better to ride?" Unless a train of D-Type "Triplex" cars rolled in on the V train, most people wouldn't even notice.
Most people do notice the difference between the 46's and 32's. The 46's do look nicer on the outside and inside, and the digital displays help put on a look of being advanced trains.
But if you were trying to get to work, would you ride a train JUST because it had digital displays?
No not really. Like I said, I'd cut the V back to 8 60' cars. That is the practical solution to this whole mess. Maybe in the distant future, the R-160 could be placed on the V in 8 car units.
No. The E uses the oldest B division equipment in service, yet is packed. The idea of using the R46 to attract riders to the V is a fallacy.
Nothing phases New Yorkers. You can send some wierd subway train from China through the system and 85% of New Yorkers will probably just say, "Hey, the train is here, let's sit down."
You can send some wierd subway train from China through the system
Probably headed by To-Ma Da Ta-ngku En-Dje
Actually different subway cars don't really matter that much right now, I don't believe. New cars, or clean more modern cars, only really mattered during the graffiti era when most trains were trashed. Now that most of the trains in the system are relatively clean, I don't think most passengers really care which ones they ride so much.
So should NYCT pay people to trash the express trains on QB, so people would be less likely to ride them?
That may be an idea to get them to take the local V.........
This is true. When the N/R swapped terminals in May 1987, the R instantly went from one of the worst lines to one of the best, because of it being equipped with the grafitti-free cars Jamaica had at the time (R46, pre-GOH R32). The N, OTOH, while it got a few brand new 2800 series R68's put in on it immediatley, had to absorb a part of the old, crappy R fleet which was based out of CI, and that meant grafitti-covered R32's and R40's. These were all gone by autumn, but Sea Beach riders did cry foul. The same thing happened in late 1986 when politicians representing Middle Village and Ridgewood were fuming that the M was getting the horrible R16's dumped on it, while the newly overhauled R30's were going exclusively to the J and L lines.
True, but the R46 is more popular with those of us not fascinated by railfan windows. They, like me, love the foward facing window seats.
What about the ?
sorry if some one posted that already but I didn't feel like going through 50+ posts.
weekdays... no, the current service works fine. (though extending the V to brooklyn wouldnt hurt)
weekdays... no, the current service works fine. (though extending the V to brooklyn wouldnt hurt)
but weekends... run the F through 53rd, and the Q through 63rd turning at Queensbridge
Just after 10 this morning, a rumor spread about an explosion at Grand Central Terminal, and at the Kennedy Center in Washington. It goes without saying that neither one had even the slightest modicum of truth. But take a look at the effect these rumors had on the stock market - remember the news broke just about 10.
It would be interesting to see just who was responsible for spreading these false stories. My bet is on short sellers :)
HAHAHAHA!
oh that's great. if the SEC has half a clue they'll be looking for suspicious activity. Did this rumor make it to any of the major media outlets? I heard nothing of it here, but my office is always pretty quiet...
Now who's worse, the potiental people that spread such a rumor on purpose, or the idiots that went on a selling blitz?
But the market didn't nosedive until later in the day. I watched all the news programs today, never saw this mentioned; even if it were a rumor, it would have been reported.
-Hank
I was in Grand Central Terminal this evening. If there was an explosion, it was covered up quickly and extremely effectively, and any dead victims did a good job of masquerading as live commuters.
David
You are correct in that the major selloff came after 2PM. But there was a significant dip right around 10AM -- the Nasdaq dove about 20 points and the Dow about 50, followed by a complete recovery by about 10:45 AM.
See http://biz.yahoo.com/mu/update.html -- apparently they believe the rumors had something to do with it.
CG
But the market didn't nosedive until later in the day. I watched all the news programs today, never saw this mentioned; even if it were a rumor, it would have been reported.
Yahoo Finance reported the rumor at about 10:45. Actually, it didn't report the rumor itself, but rather said that the Dow, S&P and NASDAQ had plunged right about 10:00 due to the rumor (the charts show the fall quite clearly). Exactly how the rumor spread is uncertain, as I didn't see it on any of the news sites. It's possible it could have been nothing but word of mouth.
Cooler heads prevailed within a few minutes after 10:00 and the indices were back up. Of course, they tanked later in the day, this time on no significant news at all ... other than the fact, as I've stated many many times, that stock market investors are ignornant schmucks.
Dunno how many of you guys have Bloomberg TV, but they had the people making the sell decisions on, asking why. Universally the answer was, "we were waiting for signs from the administration that something would be done to reassure investors, but all we got were empty words." Sorry, that was what they all said without exception. Look for a bigger tanking tomorrow is what they were all saying as well ... Joe Beercan sold short.
Well, it's like this: lots of people here have plans for how the Second Avenue Subway can/should be built, but the point is--without money, nobody's plans will be built.
So I have a new idea--WE can build the Second Avenue Subway and then lease it to the MTA! How? I got this email today:
Dear sir,
(RE: TRANSFER OF ($39,000,000.00 USD)
THIRTY NINE MILLION DOLLARS
( URGENT & CONFIDENTIAL )
I have the honor and confidence to introduce you to
this business in view of the fact that you are
trustworthy and reliable. I got your contact from the
girl who operates my computer and I have confided in
her about this transfer.
I am Mr.Morgan Ado. I work in the foreign Payment
Department of ECOWAS DIPLOMATIC RESOURCES MANAGEMENT
BANK LTD[EDREMB LTD]. There is an account opened in
our bank in 1990 but since 1996 nobody has operated on
this account again. After a private investigation I
discovered that the owner of this account was the
manager of U. Martins CO.LTD - a foreigner who has
since died without having a beneficially to this
account here in Ghana. My investigation proved to me
also that nobody from the company knows about this
account since the company has not become operational.
The amount contained in this account is US $39m United
States Dollars.
I get about 10 of these offers a week, from foreign trade missions, dictators, and widows of military strongmen. My wife and daughter also get these offers. I figure that if we accept just half of them , we'll be able to build 10 blocks of the Second Avenue Subway (maybe 23rd Street to 33rd Street) if noone else wants these blocks by the end of the year!
What do you say, guys. Is this a great idea or what? ;-)
and the "station naing rights" will go to the spammers right? Mobutu Sese Soko change for the L watch the closing doors"
Great idea! I was thinking of holding bake sales, but that is not a particularly good short-term manoever.
For the Second Avenue Suway as I understand, there aready is a 30 block tube from about 110th Street to 96th. Built after Robert Moses was finally bumped out of the picture.
For the time being al least, to al least get the line started, a branch from the Lexington line across 96th, then up Second Avenue. Only fear to that is the possible added conjestion to the already overstrained Lexington Line.
30 block tube from about 110th Street to 96th.
I thought inflation only affected money.
What gas is this 30 block tube inflated with?
:0)
NOx.
I lost u on ur last comment.
Was saying instead of leaving that section tunnel closed up, make use of it, just to get the line started.
A branch off the Lexington Line to 96th over to Second Avenue, then continue up to 110th. As that section is being used, construction from 96th down could be continue.
(Making the tunnel so it can accomidate both types of trains since the Division B-letter train cars are wider that the Division A -numbered lines' cars)
Making the tunnel so it can accomidate both types of trains since the Division B-letter train cars are wider that the Division A -numbered lines' cars
This is really not possible. Tunnels are no problem, but stations are a major headache. You would have to make the platform gap wide enough for B-division trains. Needless to say, this would make the gap dangerously big for A-division trains. The only possible way to do any of this would be to make express and local tracks different from each other, but I don't think that would be a good idea. Besides, the TA seems intent on building new trackage to accomodate larger trains, having smaller cars means you need a much larger car fleet (and the Lexington Line is proof of how it can induce crowding.)
Think the moving platform at South Ferry and 14St Union Square is a cool design. Thats what I was thinking of in reference to Second Ave. I understand it wouldnt work & would cause too much problem. Its just the annoyance the tunnels are there an not being used when You hear and see a need for something now.
If u get a chance, London extended the Jubilee line with some great safety features. Probably wouldn't do them here, but they are still sweet.
http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/london/jubilee/
Canary Wharf Station:
Glass wall along the platform edge with doors that line up to the trains as they pull in (safety to keep people from accidently falling over):
stations are a major headache.
Hmmm I could just about imagine the switches before every station to get the IRT tracks 6" closer to the platform - then the bit in the station with 6 rail (IRT Left Rail, BMT Left Rail, IRT Third Rail, BMT Third Rail, IRT Right Rail, BMT Right Rail) - what a mess!
Your third rails have to be on the outside. Starting from a platform at the left, it would be IRT 3rd rail, IRT left rail, BMT left rail, IRT right rail, BMT right rail, BMT 3rd rail. There is a precedent. On Chicago's elevated, where freight trains were carried (North Side main line and Evanston), there were gauntlet tracks. Generally, these tracks were under wire, as in Evanston. On the West Side, where Garfield Park "L" trains shared track with Chicago Aurora & Elgin passenger and freight trains, platforms were equipped with "flip boards", hinged extensions that flipped for freight trains, then flipped back for "L" and CA&E passenger trains. The flip boards were handled by freight train crews.
120 st to 110 st,105 st to 96 st......
so what ever happened to 105-110th to connect the two?
Well,that was suppose to be the 105 street station[somewhat]
They built tunnel sections not involving stations first, for whatever reason. The stretch from 105-110 would probably have included a station, so they left it for later.
the Els were torndown in part cause they were loud, clunky, and blocked the sunlight out from the street. But given how developed Manhattan is now, in all these discussion, has anyone brought up the idea on a monorail for Second Avenue
Early and often. The locals don't want anything above ground.
I hear u, still wonder how it would look a monorail pulling out of the newly done section on South Ferry Terminal up South or Water Street
The only problem with a monorail is the fact that we already have a subway. A monorail would gain no advantages from integration with the existing system (yards, common equipment, etc), and transfers would mean a huge loss of time. We'd be better off with just the Stubway.
The real way to get it is to integrate it with the commuter railroads, not the subway, and charge a premium fare. Add an express route to bring NJT riders from Secaucus Transfer to Grand Central, Metro North riders from Grand Central to Lower Manhattan, and LIRR riders from Lower Manhattan to Jamaica (and vice versa) with a minimum of stops and maximum of speed. You'd have a separate system, complete if the commuter railroads were included, just for the wealthy East Side, LIRR riders in Eastern Queens, and the suburbs. Then, the business community will be interested.
Bronx and Brooklyn riders would benefit indirectly through reduced crowding, of course, but we wouldn't have to tell that to the people with influence.
The only problem with a monorail is the fact that we already have a subway.
Imagine if we could start fresh. A swarm of genetically altered duorail eating termites destroys the entire New York subway system and, incredibly, insurance will cover replacing it.
Imagine the complexity of trying to create a system as large and complex as New York's in monorail. Imagine trying to switch trains at the frequency that New York subways operate. Imagine the wear-and-tear on the heavy switching mechanisms.
A swarm of genetically altered duorail eating termites destroys the entire New York subway system
Related to the termites that are eating the Manhattan Bridge?
Hey, if birds can wreck havoc on the cables of the Willamsburgh Bridge, sure ... why not? :)
--Mark
Wasnt implying something as drastic as that, just saying with what we have currently, 50 story towers on both side of the street (like some areas of manhattan, could we find a simplier solution that can be put into effect right away to deal with the current problems. But building subways lines could still be done, and various area of MAnhattan and other borough could use it
eg: 7 train to Javits canter
branch of the L trough the east village, ave B? 1st Ave?
but for certain heavy area which could not take anymore construction easlty, monorail could be an option
You could do light rail or possibly even heavy rail on modern structures, but, as I say, it won't happen because the locals won't have it.
Monorails are JUST PLAIN STUPID.
What if they are in the mountains?
:0)
Hey, I love subways more than monorails too. Im just looking at the current issue: Overcrowding on the Lexington line and the need for a solution
Also, I think when monorail is mention, ur thinking of the ones at Disney (and the thought of those types running up 2nd ave, Id fully agree with ur remarks)
If design with some thought for the area it runs through, one could look pretty well, be almost invisible, and do its main job, to move people. There are monorails with the tracks overhead and covered, so rain, Ice and snow would not be a factor. Plus it would be one way of solving this issue now.
We still need subway lines, Second Avenue line was long overdue (in some respects, if it weren't for Robert Moses, it would be on the map already) Im just saying given the time, cost, and effect (especially in a highly developed area such as Second Ave) to build this now, its just something to consider
"They built tunnel sections not involving stations first, for whatever reason."
I think stations are complex and usually have to be excavated via cut and cover even if they are very deep. Once you've done the stations, it's easy to lower down the drilling machines and drill the tunnels.
Never mind, my comment was the opposite of the previous observation.
I was thinking more along the lines of a pyramid scheme, but whatever gets it built.
MATT-2AV
maybe 23rd Street to 33rd Street
I could just about imagine it! Have a Local Train with an intermediate stop at 28th, and a non-stop express train 23rd-33rd. There a 4-track 2nd Av Subway! Everyone satisfied?
i just heard from the news radio, that the N AND R ARE SUSPENDED BOTH WAYS IN 60TH ST TUBE, due to fire dept activity at 59th. does this mean 4,5,6 are bypassing too? and has service resumed yet? according to the news, R is running on the F. thank you
Well not live this isn't via a wireless connection. This was my trip in at approx 9am.
Missed a Slant at Kings Hwy and got the following local. All normal until Prospect Park. At Prospect Park the C/R comes on and says this train is going back to Coney Island there is no service to downtown brooklyn (nothing about the fire or lex ave).
I sit and wait because the T/O hasn't dumped the train. Needless to say the C/R says something on the IC and CAHAAHAA we go.
The platform is playing a recording from DeKalb tower that there is limited service on the Q and no service on the N/R/W do to "problems at Lexington Ave". Switch at Atlantic for limited sergice on the 4/5 or use the Prospect Shuttle.
This repeats at least 10 times as the Q local I just got off reverses out of the station. Then someone local inturupts the Tower PA and says EVERY OTHER Q will go to Manhattan. At this time the PACKED shuttle has left, you never see them having trouble closing the doors on the shuttle (hehe).
The next Q in is a slant. First it looks like it is going to discharge then it loads up and off it goes downtown.
At this point I jump on the next shuttle, take to the C, to the E to Queens Plaza. Nothing was said on the IND part of my trip as to the troubles at Lex.
I went through there around 7.30, 8 this morning, and all was normal.
Ok everyone I am making my final push to get my Second Avenue Subway Line to the public, I need help, maybe David Pirmann will be nice enough and let me put my plan on the nycsubway.org site. My new plan is 75 pages long, and incorportes alot of changes from the plan thats currently at my school site, including letters instead of numbers, a Queens Boulevard to Second Avenue Line, a broadway to Northern Second Avenue Line, and 4 other branches of the Second Avenue Line, alot of stops that were express stops were converted to local stops. I made a trip to all of the proposed stops to see if what I need is feasble. The track maps were also upgraded with more switches and a 3rd track was added to the line to Co-Op City for a rush hour peak line. Here is the problem, I have no contact that would let me get it into the Public, I've contacted several newspapers and news channels, and no response has been made, even the New York Times has no responded to my e-mails. So if anyone knows how to get me into a newspaper or something please let me know, I have been working on this plan for 6 years and I wont let it dissappear without a decent fight.
Have you consdered showing your plan to the Regional Planning Association? They are in Manhattan. Look them up; give them a ring and ask to speak to the Transporttion Fellow. Perhaps they would be willing to hear you out (and you can look at their stuff to).
If I were you, I would, however, prepare a one page summary of your plan andbe prepared to detail the most importanbt points in five minutes or less. If your audience is interested, you can offer them additional layers of detail as desired.
Christopher, I will happily lend my assistance to helping you get your plan to the public.
I came into the city last Wednesday to go dancing and ride the LIRR to Montauk.
I left Washington on Amtrak #178, scheduled to leave at 4:05 p.m. Fortunately I had a business class ticket. I expected the train to be jammed because Wednesday was the day before the holiday. According to the public timetable, #178 is an unreserved train. Imagine my surprise when I saw "R" on the monitor indicating the train was a reserved train. If I didn't have a reservation for the train, I couldn't have gotton on and would have to wait for #176, 90 minutes later.
At 3:55, we were still waiting to board. I was able to overhear that a motor had to be shopped. The train left 30 minutes late and arrived New York Penn 55 minutes late.
I returned yesterday on #141, leaving New York Penn 15 minutes late.
I called Amtrak and spoke to an agent about a customer service certificate. Without any argument, the agent verified the lateness of the trains and told me a $54 certificate would be mailed. This was completely fair since I had used the H212 30% off promotion.
Michael
Washington, DC
Do you feel happy with yourself that you pushed Amtrak just a little closer to going away for good? How late will you be in the future when the trains stop running and you have to drive? You should consider your rail fare a donation toward better transit in America and stop kicking Amtrak while they're down.
H212
You seem to know more about Amtrak revenue mgmt than I do. Care to explain what these symbols mean?
BOF3
YOTC
DRF1-H207
These are "fare plans" that Amtrak has like the airlines have the code "fare basis". I assume H212 is some fare basis for the 30% off discount. So tell me what those other ones mean! I think H207 was the buy-one-get-one-free trip that Jersey Mike and I went on. But what about the other portions?
AEM7
H212 was advertised on Amtrak's web page as 30% off so it was easy to figure out.
I don't know what the other codes mean. However, if you go to Amtrak's web page, I think there is a place on fares where you can type in the fare code for an English translation.
Some codes are restricted to particular routes. I suggest that you go to Amtrak's web page, look are promotions. The farecodes for the specials might show up.
Michael
Don't be silly. If Amtrak didn't compensate its gue^H^H^Hpassengers in some way for service problems, it would drive them away.
$54, especially in the form of a certificate which can only be used as payment for a future Amtrak fare, seems no more than fair compensation for the lost time Michael endured on that run. And the fact that it's a certificate could even tip the balance the next time he's contemplating a trip.
Mvh Tim
$54, especially in the form of a certificate which can only be used as payment for a future Amtrak fare...
Yes, in fact, it's a form of revenue management. Remember every seat in an Amtrak train that departs empty is a full-fare revenue loss. A partial revenue hit (due to a certificate) is better than a full-fare revenue loss.
This would seem to explain their logic behind the $75 certificate I got. So maybe I could afford to ride the Acela Express just once, at the price of a Northeast Direct ticket.
These marketing people sometimes end up giving the whole house away though. That's why we have revenue management systems that use statistics to determine just exactly how much discount they should give to their guests...
AEM7
AEM7 wrote:
I think H207 was the buy-one-get-one-free trip that Jersey Mike and I went on.
Are you the "Jersey Mike" who took advantage of a discount fare and complains that I'm pushing Amtrak "a little closer to away for good"?
If you are the same "Jersey Mike," don't be a hypercrite and complain about me asking for a customer service certificat. You SHOULDN'T have taken advantage of a discount fare and paid full fare yourself!!
Michael
Are you the "Jersey Mike" who took advantage of a discount fare and complains that I'm pushing Amtrak "a little closer to away for good"?
My take on service certificates is this:
The availability of service certificates (and other promotions) should not be used as an excuse for poor service. In no event should they be used as substitute for service with a smile. If you genuinely felt short-changed due to a late train (e.g. missed a meeting which would have been of value to you, or if your wife got upset because you were home 30 mins late because she'd planned a surprise ice-cream homecoming for you and the ice cream were melted when you got home), then you should and have every right to call in for a service certificate. If you're like me, a mostly leisure traveller who loved all the excitement of the train breaking down and them having to substitute locomotives (maybe even an E60), you should not request a certificate and consider your ticket price a donation.
A number of times, I could have not paid my fare (connexions in the crewbase), and other times I could have not paid the change fee (they forgot to charge me), and one time I was double-charged for the $30 change fee. Not one time did I take up on the cash refunds/fares evaded I could have gotten out of the situations.
As for the promotions -- use them. That's why they are there. If promotions fail to fill up the seats, they will only take deeper and deeper cuts. Maybe they would even cut an entire coach or an entire train if the promotions fail to sell the seats. If the promotion happens to fulfil your requirements, you should take it.
AEM7
Maybe they would even cut an entire coach or an entire train if the promotions fail to sell the seats.
Somewhat related, but I heard that the Twilight Shoreliner is going to be losing its sleepers with the next timetable change due to lack of patronage.
Somewhat related, but I heard that the Twilight Shoreliner is going to be losing its sleepers with the next timetable change due to lack of patronage.
As far as I know, no and no.
Twlight Shoreliner lost its Sleeper due to the Auto Train wreck, effective around May 1.
Twlight Shoreliner regained its Sleeper around June 1 -- Gunn did some equipment reshuffle after some money was found to repair some of the not-structurally compromised Viewliners.
Twlight Shoreliner has more Sleeper boarding than many trains (compare to, e.g. the Three Rivers which I think recently lost its Heritage Roomette), but because it is a short-haul run, it is not as lucrative for Amtrak as other routes. Also, the Acela has become something of a formidable competitor to the Twlight Shoreliner.
AEM7
Also, the Acela has become something of a formidable competitor to the Twlight Shoreliner.
It shouldn't be, though! If I lived in DC and had to be in Boston at the start of business the next day, I'd rather ride an overnight train than take a high-speed train and stay in a hotel (an extra night)!
Twlight Shoreliner regained its Sleeper around June 1 -- Gunn did some equipment reshuffle after some money was found to repair some of the not-structurally compromised Viewliners.
I was in Louisville in June when the Kentucky Cardinal lost its sleeper to the Twilight Shoreliner. A 30 mph overnight trip from Chicago to Louisville without a sleeper sucks, but the sleeper should be in the train in which it will carry the most passengers.
It'd be nice if there were more sleepers - proof positive of Amtrak's anemic funding for proper equipment or at least REPLACEMENT equipment. This chronic underfunding is the entire reason why so many are whining about Amtrak being truly the "route of the pointless arrow." Any overnight trip should have such accomodations but with so few cars these days, there just aren't enough to go around.
Don't mind me, Bob ... I KNOW you know what I mean, just needed to be said for the naysayers ... not enough cars, not enough people to properly clean them owing to a cutthroat congress and somehow it's Amtrak's fault if they're short-sheeted ...
owing to a cutthroat congress and somehow it's Amtrak's fault if they're short-sheeted...
I keep waiting for Gunn to tell the Feds that he'll withdraw his request for emergency funding as soon as Congress releases the $2.5 billion that was promised and not delivered 5 years ago.
Heh. Right man for the right job. No anatomically correct KEN DOLL is he. I'm psyched. One of the things that has REALLY PYTHED me off here on subtalk is the whiners who keep posting that republican BIMBO who was upset about the diesel dust on her curtains. If Newt and his pals hadn't scuttled EVERYTHING in their "contract ON America," we'd still have a WORKING railroad, the World Trade Center and an economy.
And the AIRLINES are going to get Amtrak's money, you wait and see. If Amtrak is such a waste, how come the airlines ain't making any money and why are THEY getting cash without all this nonsense? Oh yeah. Campaign cash. Amtrak ain't got *THAT* ...
...that republican BIMBO who was upset about the diesel dust on her curtains. If Newt and his pals...
Which republican bimbo...? Who is Newt...?
Wow ... you REALLY need to get out more often. OK ... imagine Lady Thatcher with a mistress .... that's the Newtie ... BIMBO ... it was a recent message, repeated by a few anti-Amtrak persone here. I'd go nuts trying to work a search for it, but it was a link to those a$$hole$ at the Amtrak Reform Council who would rather kill Amtrak than admit that it wasn't a suicide, but clearly a congressional homicide ...
It's the boring story of a woman who did four sections out to the west and back via Chitown and her room was messy and her shower had chocolate (or so she hoped) on her seat. The kind of emotional BS instead of facts that people with "it" caught in their zipper often resort to in order to divert attention away from fact. Don't mind me, I have a strengthy BS detector, and growing up in the city, I can spot a crappy sidewalk act. :)
Jersey Mike isn't happy unless he's complaining about something.
Mike,
Amtrak has the service guarantee for a reason, to keep customers. The reason Amtrak is losing money is because it continues to run unprofitable routes. But no customer of Amtrak should feel guilty of using the service guarantee, and shame on you for suggesting such a thing! -Nick
Rode Amtrak eighty three times and never had a properly run trip. And yourself?
man i rode Amtrak one time, and they have proven themself. i rode train 53, the auto train from lorton virginia to sanford florida. great food, and its a railfans dream trip!
My sister in law and her family rode Amtrak this past winter from Boston to Florida and said they would never ever do it again. Delays galore, rude service staff, overflowing toliets ..... Amtrak sent her 4 free tickets because of the fiasco and she probably won't use them.
--Mark
Yeah, NEC is bad -- well except trains out of BOS. They have to do something about the NEC... maybe dismantle the NYP crewbase and run all Acelas out of Richmond -- there, we could have Southern Belles running our train.
I've never had anybody rude to me on the intercity runs.
AEM7
Rode Amtrak eighty three times and never had a properly run trip.
Could you publish your travel plans so we can avoid your trains? :)
I rode the westbound Capitol Limited to Chicago last August and had a good trip. The meals in the dining car were marvelous, I saw the GG1 at the NYC museum in Elkhart during breakfast, and we arrived 25 minutes ahead of schedule.
Surfliner trip last month was on time, with a pleasant crew, and the view was marvelous.
I plan on taking the Emprire Builder / Lake Shore Limited east on vacation. I have done so many times and enjoy the trip.
On Time, in Amtrakease means it arrived on the scheduled day.
That's the best you can do when you ride on freight railroads.
Once you get past that idea, the trip is great.
Elias
Lots of good rides, a couple of bad ones. My most recent was great (St. Louis to Washington, Missouri, the day before we met at Arden) although it was almost ten minutes late after only a little over an hour... with no apparent reason for the delay... we kept moving at a decent clip the whole time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
go for it. if you're not happy, you should get your money back. there's no reason why you put up with poor service from anyone.
Well, Mr. M4 here is a railfan so what service is Amtrak providing him? They are providing a train ride, so as long as Mr. M4 wasn't put on a bus he recieved a worthwhile experiance and any attempt to get lateless money is just pure greed. He should be paying Amtrak for the extra railfanning time he got. Anyone on this board know deep down that they have more fun traveling by rail to their destination than whatever they have to do at their destination. None of us care about how late our train is, we're just jazzed about being on the rails. So demanding compensation for something that actually benefits us is morally reprehensible, espceically when the "deep pocket" is about 2 heartbeats away from death.
>>> None of us care about how late our train is...<<<
There you go again, speak for yourself.
Peace,
ANDEE
Jersey Mike:
Did you ever think that maybe I had an appointment in New York and needed the train to be close to on time?
Did you ever think I had other plans for the evening?
Did you ever think...???
Railfanning is no longer my primary interest. It's now dancing and I expect the train to be on time to maximize my time for dancing.
Just because you get an orgasm from riding trains doesn't mean everyone else gets one.
Michael
Washington, DC
M4
Did you ever think that maybe I had an appointment in New York and needed the train to be close to on time?
Did you ever think I had other plans for the evening?
HA! So your girlfriend got upset!? Just be grateful she wasn't sitting out at Fostoria (Ohio) at 2.30am in the rain and I didn't turn up until 5.30am. I still didn't ask for a voucher. I did buy her something, but out of my own pocket.
AEM7
If you have so many better things to do, why are you posting on this board?
That'a a real lame answer...and you know it! As my father used to say, "you talk like a man with a paper ass"
Peace,
ANDEE
That'a a real lame answer...and you know it! As my father used to say, "you talk like a man with a paper ass"
Well what else was he supposed to say? When I come up with a real argument, everyone just goes quiet and shuts up. So perhaps I should start writing lame answers too.
AEM7
Who asked you? What are you? His P/R man?
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm pissed because I posted earlier about why you should and should not request a voucher. No one said anything. Those were real arguments. Seems to be subtalkers just like to lung at each other for no reason, and the moment someone comes up with a real argument, they go hide in the sand.
And yes I did work in Corporate Affairs
I'm sorry I did not catch your post about vouchers.
I do believe that if a given transportation provider offers a give back upon late arrival that it should be taken advantage of.
To call anyone greedy for taking this give back is wrong.
To say that one should pay the transportation provider for the delay is ridiculous.
Peace,
ANDEE
As a reminder, Amtrak advertised the customer service certificate.
From the first page of the NEC timetable:
"We promise to make your trip a safe, comfortable and enjoyable experience. If something isn't right, talk to any amtrak employe and we'll try to make it right.
If our efforts aren't enough, call ... for a Service Guarantee Certificate toward future travel.
Your satisfaction is guaranteed."
Amtrak encourages passengers to call with problems. If somebody
chooses not to take advantage, that is their perogative. I don't draw any conclusions about that person. And nobody should draw conclusion about me asking for a certficate.
Michael
Washington, DC
I appreciate Subwaysurf's supporting statements
As a reminder, Amtrak advertised the customer service certificate.
Down at London King's Cross station, in the many red telephone booths, many young ladies advertize their services on small postcards, often with a picture of themselves or a model. Looking through my archives, I have ones that read "Sweet Irish Redhead -- fresh from Belfast, barely legal", and various others.
Unfortunately, we live in a judgmental society. If I were to call Kathleen and request her services (for a suitable fee, of course -- although she'd probably waive it for me), I am sure some people (if not yourself) will draw conclusions about me for taking advantage. So let's now re-read what you said:
Amtrak encourages passengers to call with problems. If somebody
chooses not to take advantage, that is their perogative. I don't draw any conclusions about that person. And nobody should draw conclusion about me asking for a certficate.
Of course, it is also my perogative not to call Kathleen and arrange to meet her at a Park Lane hotel. We are all free to draw our own conclusions about other people's decisions and actions. If Jersey Mike happens to believe that it is somehow immoral to request a certificate (in the same way that some people might believe it is somehow immoral to take advantage of Kathleen's offerings), it is his right. Again those who do make use of Kathleen are entitled to believe that they have done nothing wrong. After all, the service is advertized, and it is an exchange of services between consenting parties -- whether this be M4 and Amtrak (shall I call her "Julie"?), or Jeff and Kathleen.
AEM7
(I'm not a liberal.)
If I were to call Kathleen and request her services (for a suitable fee, of course -- although she'd probably waive it for me)
What makes you so sure Kathleen would waive the fee?
He's probably asking for a senior citizen discount. Maybe a frequent customer bonus. After nine, the tenth is free.
How he compares escort services to Amtrak is beyond me. I don't remember Amtrak advertising escorts on their trains. Well, some people will go to any length to prove that they are right, no matter how ridiculous their position.
Michael
I don't remember Amtrak advertising escorts on their trains.
You've not ridden the Sunset Limited, have you?
He's probably asking for a senior citizen discount. Maybe a frequent customer bonus.
Ooooh, so first Michael misses his date with his dancer girlfriend in NYC and gets pissed at Amtrak, and then now he's got penis envy? *I* ask for a senior citizen's discount? heh heh heh. In your case it might be a surcharge for being in the "bic pen" width category. After all, they do practice revenue management -- higher prices for the occasional customer, and lower prices for the contract high-volume clients...
AEM7
You ARE really a regular dickhead, aren't you?
Peace,
ANDEE
Alright, I'm sorry. Soon after I posted that, I realized I went a little too far. I'll be very quiet from now -- well except about transit related matters.
AEM7
I don't remember Amtrak advertising escorts on their trains.
Maybe they should. It's a dandy revenue source for the Village Voice!
Yeah! then maybe the sleepers will sell out!!
Take a look at these photos, the constuction is coming along quite well
These Pictures were taken from the Subway New Website http://www.subwaywebnews.com/
Thanks for posting those. Good news indeed.
This is great news.
I just want to say one thing, for a few months I was thinking maybe they'd put full priority on reconstructing the tracks and making sure they are sound and then worrying about the tunnel structure later so maybe the trains would actually go outside for a second before going into Chambers Street. That would've been very interesting, going right through Ground Zero outside. Of course, I'm not complaining, it is great to hear that this reconstruction is on or ahead of schedule and that the 7th Ave line will be back to its order.
Maybe they should build side platforms at the new station and then immediately seal them up so that we'll have something new to talk about here. ;)
That is what they're doing...
-Hank
Oops. You're right. I meant that they should build a portion of the station and then immediately close it up so that we'll have a mystery to discuss.
I am at a loss for words -- awesome pictures! Thank you so much!
Every now and then, when I'm working out of 111-113 Broadway, I catch a glimpse down into Ground Zero. I haven't been back to that office since the board reappeared.
I was somewhat surprised that the tunnel is being constructed out of steel beams, almost as per the original tunnel segment. You will notice in the second photo down how the new beams are substantially more slender than the original ones, demonstrating the advances in steel technology over the past 97 years.
I was surprised that the damaged segments were being built out of steel beams because I had figured that poured concrete construction would be less expensive.
Perhaps it was more economical to match the new construction with the old. Could the unit cost of new construction per se be less, but when you factor in the cost to interface with existing segments, the net construction cost is greater.
Does anyone know why?
MATT-2AV
Steel is easier to change than concrete. If any future plan calls for it, it can be modified much more easily.
-Hank
I still would have preferred them to not rebuild the tunnel at all, leaving the restored line out in the open. Then when the WTC site is redeveloped, build whatever tunnel and station fit the overall site at that time. The way they're doing it, creating a truly new station (with, hopefully, a more spacious design and better integration with the complex above) would require (re-)demolishing the tunnel they're building right now. Still, I'm not going to complain much about a subway project that is ahead of schedule. =)
It's a interesting idea leaving the line out in the open, but the line would be disturbed alot, if not in a tunnel when they are building whatever is to be built there. This way they could build around the line, while keeping trains running, sort of like they did when the built the World Trade Center the first time.
As recently as a few weeks ago, I saw some of last fall's posters which said that service to South Ferry would be stopped for "several years" while the tunnel was rebuilt. Who'd have thunk it?
There have been more amazing things done in even more stressful situations. The reopening of the Greenwich St. tunnel in just over year after it was flattened, if the engineers and workers pull it off, will probably take its place among these events.
Yes indeed, and that's even after removing two 110 story buildings from on top of it also!
"Steel is easier to change than concrete. If any future plan calls for it, it can be modified much more easily."
That's a good theory, but it only holds if the construction is temporary. Final structures, steel, concrete, or wood, would all be difficult to modify. The structure is designed for certain conditions. If those conditions change, substantial modifications are in order regardless of materials of construction.
MATT-2AV
Concrete makes more sense because it absorbs sould better and lasts longer than steel. I couldn't imagine construction costs would be higher because only a very short segment interfaces with the old tunnel. I think the reason is maintenance. You would have to retrain all tunnel inspectors who are used to looking at steel, plus perhaps you need different equipment. But then again, doesn't NYCT have concrete tunnels elsewhere? I also wonder why they didn't make wider tunnels to allow for emergency walkways.
Why are they building a four track tunnel? I thought that tunnel was only two track.
Two tracks and two eventual platforms.
I believe the section you are looking at includes the provision for the new Cortlandt St station when they decide to build it. That's why it looks like four tracks, instead of two.
Ok, I see now.
"I think the reason is maintenance. You would have to retrain all tunnel inspectors who are used to looking at steel, plus perhaps you need different equipment. But then again, doesn't NYCT have concrete tunnels elsewhere?"
Yes, it does.
When I ride the Lexington Avenue express from 86th Street, the tunnel construction transitions from open-cut, steel beam construction to deep-bore concrete, and remains deep-bore concrete until just north of Grand Central where the construction transitions back to open-cut, steel beam.
And there are numerous other transitions in tunnel construction method. Some notable examples are:
Right at the uptown end of 145th Street station on the (1) the tunnel transitions from open cut steel beam construction to deep bore as you enter the Washington Heights mine tunnel.
Between 190th and Dyckman Street on the (A), the tunnel transitions from open-cut box to deep bore, about halfway through the tunnel. This transition is very obvious from the railfan window.
MATT-2AV
Concrete is not stronger than steel. Go out to any elevated freeway segment (like I-95 in Bridgeport) and see how small the steel supports are. Then look at the concrete replacements. In bridgeport the 6-lane roadbed is supported by 2 12-24 inch on a side steel box beams. Their replacement are 36 inch diameter concrete columns. Concrete is just easier (cheaper) to with with and easier to maintain (no paint). However, it is definitly not as graceful and not as space efficient. It is also easier to work steel into complex structures like a subway tunnel.
If you consider at the Greenwitch St. tunnel the space for the tunnel is already set. A concrete tube would require much larger wall and roof walls, structures that would not fit in the already available space.
I don't if concrete is cheaper than steel once all other costs are factored in. Site considerations play a lot in the decision. The maintenance costs, tho', are cheaper. Concrete can last as long as the pyramids.
Who is Richard Levin and how can we get him to get us tours like this? Who does he know? Does he also know the guy who is stockpiling all of the stripped Deadbird parts? This guy is my idol. I betcha he even has the coveted "MTA unlisted email address for complaints."
These pictures appeared today (10 July) in the London newspaper Metro! This is a free paper that is given away at tube stations; the Underground doesn't publish it, it's a general paper not just a transport one, but London Underground does sponsor one page each day. And today that page covered the Greenwich Street subway reconstruction, illustrated by four of these very pictures. Someone at London Underground must be monitoring New York subway websites.
Fytton
Which car class went for their GOH first? I recall the R44's having the new digital signs before the R46's, but someone on here stated that the R46 went first, which doesn't jibe with my recollections. Also, did the R44's return from their GOH renumbered, or were they changed later, like the R46's (renumbered in 1993)?
And who's idea was the uglification program on the R40-R46?
;-D Andrew
R46 went first,during the the time where you found anything and everything runnig on the E,F,G and R[anything means R32/38/40,BUT MOSTLY 32'S]Also the the 44's were renumberd while GOH[have a few pics here with cars at CI with new number plates]:}
R44 went first and then R46. Look at the renumbering (original numbers) tables here...
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r4446.html
They have the dates each car was overhauled.
You may have read the table wrong. The R46's were overhauled 1990-1991 and the R44 1991-1992 with renumbering of the R46's taking place in 1994-1995.
Tony
The R46's renumbering was done in the second half of 1993.
D'oh!
The R44s had their original P-wire braking system replaced with
WestCode ca 1988. The R46 GOH program began before the R44,
by about a year or two. The 46s came back with their original
numbers. The 44s came back with the new 4 digit numbers. A few
years later someone must have had an uncle in the number plate
business because they decided to renumber the R46s, after they had
already been back on the road for a few years. Unlike the R44
renumbering, this was completely random. They just pulled the
trains off the road and renumbered them so the cars in each 4-car
set were consecutive. So, you need a long lookup table to map
current to previous numbers. AFAIK, this is the only example in
the history of rail transit in NYC where a fleet renumbering was
done in this fashion.
The R-46 went to GOH about a year before the R-44 program began. The first 270 (approximately) R-46s came back from GOH as 2 car units before the 4 car linking was cut in. The renumbering was done later. The R-44s were linked and renumbered during the GOH. As for the electronic side signs, the R-46 got them first. They were not part of the original specs but were one of the first change orders cut in after the program began. I don't recall the quid pro quo involved. BTW: there were 10 R-46s that had the luminator side signs installed in 1988-89 to prove the technology. I don't remember all of the cars involved but 1086-1087 both had the prototype signs.
were the luminator side sign tests successful?
and how were they different?
I don't quite recall the test sign on the R46's, but I clearly recall the test signs on the R-44's. I believe they were on cars 292-293-151-150-314-141-111-172. I know someone will correct me on the original numbers, but let's see if you guys can give me the CURRENT numbers of that R44 test train.
Mark
The luminator technology promised three things:
1) Where it would previously take 10 - 20 minutes to change signs at a terminal (usually by a platform conductor and a manual crank), the electronic signs were instantaneous without phisical labor.
2) Where the average roll side destination sign could display up to 20 locations the luminator system could display well over 2,000
3) While the plastic gears were prone to breakage and curtains prone to tearing, the luminator system promised reletively maintenance free service.
In general, the prototypes performed adequately but the version installed on the R-44/R-46 has easily lived up to expectations.
Luminator are NOT a reletively maintence free system. I have train were they were out complety or somewere inbetween work or not. The control panel dose not always work at one or both end of the train or only half or 2 cars change when the codes are changed. Even on buses were there are only three signs to chance it dose not always work.
Robert
Overall, I'd say we are better off with those luminator side
signs that a manual crank system. Does anyone remember the
_original_ R46 side signs though? They were roller curtain signs,
but automatic. On the inside a corresponding strip map was
displayed.
The big problems with the current side sign technology are lack
of color display and the use of scrolling messages. The conventional
signs gave the route, in color, and the destination, all in one
reading. The scrolling means either you miss part of the message
and/or you have to wait for it to come back around again. Those
few seconds could be critical when you are trying to decide whether
or not to board the train.
It is unfortunate that the MTA spent countless millions to color-code
the system, then deployed sign technology that can not display that
color on the trains themselves.
Does anyone remember the _original_ R46 side signs though?
Sure. And "roller" describes them perfectly - most of the ones I saw rolled continuously from one end to the other, trying to read the pseudo-bar-code key through the accumulated grunge on the sign.
IIRC, these signs were also named "Identra" - perhaps that is the TA's code name for "really good ideas that don't work at all in actual use"?
Regarding color and the digital signs, at the time the signs were added, I don't think color LCD displays were available. And they certainly weren't available with decent contrast. When I first saw the new-style digital signs, I was amazed at the contrast the TA managed to get.
Speaking of bus signs, if you remember the original flip-disc style of signs, I have a funny story to tell - I saw one of the replacement signs, all boxed up new-in-the-box. It was labeled "Ferranti (that's the brand) bus destination display model something-or-other" in big letters, and "not intended for mobile applications" in much smaller letters. I think that sums it up quite well - one good jolt while those discs are flipping and they lock up for good.
Get a panel with LEDs instead of filp-disk ones.
Sure. And "roller" describes them perfectly - most of the ones I saw rolled continuously from one end to the other,
trying to read the pseudo-bar-code key through the accumulated grunge on the sign
It was a 1970s approach to automated signs. They worked pretty
well for a few years, but that was also during the period of
0 maintenance. IIRC when the route colors were changed, new
curtains were made up without the barcodes. There was still the
keyswitch located on the inside of the car above the sign...better
than cranking it by hand!
I can no longer remember how the signs were set originally. Was
there a 2-digit rotary switch on the console?
I don't think color LCD displays were
available. And they certainly weren't available with decent contrast. When I first saw the new-style digital signs,
I was amazed at the contrast the TA managed to get.
That's true, BUT that was 10+ years ago. The technology is certainly
there today. Why are we ordering thousands of cars with monochrome
displays?
P.S. Don't get me wrong. I'm actually not a big fan of the
tourist-centric Manhattan trunk line color coding scheme. I'd
rather have black-and-white uppercase-only end signs, as long
as the trains display MARKER LIGHTS! But, all this effort and
money was expended on making a consistent color code. It's a shame
that it can't be displayed on the cars.
And why do the cabs have friggin Color (atleast 65,000 colors) LCD displays. Put them on the inside where those infernal strip maps are that won't be changed till the R-142s are swimming with the fishes.
"And why do the cabs have friggin Color (atleast 65,000 colors) LCD displays
What cabs wave LCD displays with 65,000 colors?
What do you mean by "Friggin color"? Is that something like "PROFF"?
Can you be more specific?
The R-142 and R-142A have a LCD panel (7X5 inches) of some sort in each transverse cab. I don't know if it is a touch panel. But it can display many colors and it is PC computer quality.
IIRC, these signs were also named "Identra" - perhaps that is the TA's code name for "really good ideas that don't work at all in actual use"?
Not to be confused with the Identra signs on the Flushing Line?
Robert, I don't wish to debate your knowledge of maintaining side signs but I assure you that the luminator system is far less maintenance intensive than the mechanical signs were.
Example 1: A luminator sign will not change route, you change a controller card - 30 minutes. If the same failure on a mechanical sign occurs you have to remove the sign find the broken gears,dis-assemble the gear box and repair it.
Example 2: Northbound F train gets to Continental Ave and is turned south in V service. If it's R-46, changing the signs involves entering the security code then the route code - 40 seconds? If it's R-32 equipment, the conductor and hopefully a platform conductor start cranking the signs - looking for the correct 2 terminals and route signs - maybe 2-3 minutes per sign ?
I don't know but I find that less labor intensive.
That's good. So why don't they put the electronic signs on the R-62's and R-68's (including A's)?
- Lyle Goldman
IIRC, the R44/46's were built with electrically powered rollsigns in mind. This made them easier to be wired for the current LCD signs.
That's correct. The installation was simplified on the R-46 because some carbody wiring was already in place. Also the budget for the R-46 overhaul was significantly larger that the R-62 & R-68 12 year SMS. The TA did not want to spend the extra money.
Do you think the advantages of the electronic signs would motivate the TA into installing these signs in those car types in the future?
Car maintenance would love to see it happen. They are far easier to maintian. At the same time, RTO would like to have them because it makes the equipment more flexible in service. Customers like them because they can provide better information - especially in the instance of a re-route.
However, in 1990 dollars, the cost of the major components was:
Side Signs $3,000 per sign (8 required for a 4-car link)
SCU = $6,000 each (2 required for a 4-car link)
ODK = $750 each (2 required for a 4-car link)
This is in addition to the labor and suplimental wiring. You can compute the cost in today's dollars if you wish.
What's an ODK?
-Hank
However, in 1990 dollars, the cost of the major components was:
Are these the installed costs or the cost of the matherials?
I believe it's supply only. He mentions it doesn't include labor.
-Hank
Then how come the R-68s don't have it?
Cost. Retrofitting was done on the R-44 and R-46 series during GOH, and the R-110-and-up cars come in with digital signs, but it's been deemed cost-ineffective to retrofit the rest of the fleet. The subject still comes up internally (within NYCT) from time to time, so never say "never."
David
This obviously stems from the JFK Express debate. Well the R-46's went first, and as previously stated, came back with their original numbers. The R44's went a year or two later and returned with the four-digit numbers. Look it up yourself.
Mark
Don't really have to look it up Mark. I ran the R-46 GOH warranty and acceptance program.
The R-44s have the LAHT steel "belt band" as part of their bodies and the R-46s don't.
At least, that's what I thought until this past Friday.
On Friday, while railfanning in Rockaway Beach, I watched an A train of R-44s proceed across the North Channel Bridge, and it was easy to see where this "belt line" appeared on the GOH R-44s. I saw this on 6 of the cars. But on 2 of the cars, I didn't see it - the sides "looked" like R-46s - where there isn't the LAHT steel belt line - it's all stainless steel. I didn't see that change in the steel at all as these cars crossed the bridge.
Can the R-44's/R-46's "mate" since GOH? Or, did any R-44's, after going through GOH, have their LAHT steel belt lines replaced with stainless steel?
I need to find this on the video I took and take a still of it, and post it. I am not imagining it!
Can anyone fill me in? Thanks.
--Mark
The SIR R-44s had their belt replaced w/stainless steel, so mayhaps they did it for several R-44s on the mainland as well?
The SIR R-44s had their belt replaced w/stainless steel, so mayhaps they did it for several R-44s on the mainland as well?
Since no R44's run in the Bronx, calling the subway version of the car "mainland" R44's is geographically incorrect.
Picky...Picky...Picky 8-))
Peace,
ANDEE
The R44's had their belt lines painted over with silver paint all except for cars 5228-29 which are the cars that resemble the 46's.
Mark
Can somebody explain to me what GOH is ? Thanks
GOH=General Over Haul.
Many classes of cars, R27/28/29/30/32/33/36/38/40/42/44/46, went through this in the late 80s early 90s.
Peace,
ANDEE
'Overhaul' is one word.
-Hank
True, but I was trying to make a point.
Peace,
ANDEE
no 27s were redone, also the redbirds were done throughout the 80s
If you'd invest the time in reading the Subway FAQ and other material on the main nycsubway.org site or going through the archived discussions in subtalk, you would have answers to many of the questions you might have, and could then focus on thought-provoking questions. If you don't understand something you've read, fine -- then ask pertinent questions. But don't waste other people's time (and bandwidth) with your laziness. Your penchant for just popping in with questions about material that is covered/has previously been discussed or baseless rumors is inexcusably selfish and inconsiderate of you.
First of all, I'm not lazy, I just asked a simple question, I don't read all the posts you know, All you had to say was "General Over Haul" was that so hard??????
Your question (as is the case with many of the ones you have asked) was just as plainly answered in the Subway FAQ. If you don't first consult the other resources available here, then you are lazy. Period.
I didn't know it was here. Period.
Several people have pointed out the main entry of www.nycsubway.org to you. It's there, plain as day. If you don't bother to read and take advantage of helpful messages, then you have zero standing to get annoyed when you are criticized for being lazy (and ignorant as well).
Ohhhhhhhh Boy! I really don't read all the messages, so if they say that, I may have not read it.
Again, it's matter of laziness and ignorance. If you post to a thread, then etiquette requires that you check for responses. You don't have to read every message, but look for replies under yours and read those. If you don't like dealing with the responsibilities and expectations of etiquette, then either don't post or graciously accept being chastised for your lack of consideration.
AAHHH... The hell wit this! This is gonna go on forever.
LOOK AROUND. period.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why did they renumber the cars anyway?
- Lyle Goldman
Why did they renumber the cars anyway?
Because they wanted all the car numbers to be 4 digits.
So couldn't they insert zeroes in front of the 3-digit numbers?
- Lyle Goldman
That's one explanation that was floating around. The other was
that since the cars didn't come back from GOH linked in 4-car sets,
but rather that was done after the fact, the link sets were going
to be in essentially random order. So, as they linked them, they
renumbered consecutively into a new series. Maybe Train Dude
knows the real scoop.
The explanation is simple. The TA/MTA wanted the rolling stock to carry a 4 digit number. They did not want to add a zero so the cars were renumbered as you see them.
Now, Lyle, why do you think that this was wrong?
This morning, getting to 4th Avenue, my NB N trian came in on the local track and ran express over the local. Then at Pacific, the message was there were no Manhattan bound N or R trains. Anyone know what broke?
Here is a great site for those wanting to see the last days of MU service on the Mitchell Field spur:
http://arrts-arrchives.nstemp.com/shuttle2.html
R44 (MK) 5202-5341 (140 MU's) 91-92 (Orig. 100-387)
R44 (TA) 5342-5479 (138 MU's) 91-92 (Orig. 100-387)
R46 (MK) 5482-6258 (752 MU's) 90-91 (Orig. 500-1278)
The R46's WERE first out for GOH. This is why 44's were put on the JFK toward the end.
For the 60' MU's:
R32 (I & II MK/GE) 3350-3949 (595 MU's) 88-90
R38 (GE) 3950-4149 (196 MU's) 87-88
R40 (SU) 4150-4549 (396 MU's) 87-89*
R42 (MK/TA) 4550-4949 (392 MU's) 88-89
* R40M and R40S
(595 R32 making the GOH)
Amazing, those R32. The odd car that didn't make the GOH was 3620, no?
wayne
I believe that WAS the only single MU not to go under the knife. Others with records I am sure can confirm or deny this, but I'm betting 3620 was the only oddball.
Wayne,
3620 was GOH'd and was coupled to 3549 after coming back from M&K. Then something happened to it which led to the infamous 3659 into 3348 transformation, with 3348 then being coupled to 3549. I checked my interval records from the early 90's and indeed had a few occasions where 3549/3620 turned out to be my operating position. 3620 was stripped and the windows boarded up and was stored in Coney Island yard for awhile, I don't know if it's still there. I had heard once upon a time that 3617 was supposed to be the 'odd man out' as far as the GOH, but it got overhauled, was coupled to 3776 and then 3659 was sitting by itself for a good while. Hope this helps, anyone wishing to elaborate on this feel free.
Billy
This is something that should've already gone into effect on the 7 and I think should go into effect on the Q come 9/8:
On the Q line, both locals and expresses will end at Brighton Beach. Instead of differentiating between locals and expresses with shapes, the line should just be called simply, "Q," so:
Going North on Brighton: people will know if the train is local or express based on what track it arrives on and it will be on that track at Brighton Beach as well, so no confusion.
Going North on Broadway: All trains are labelled Q and run express, no problems.
Going South on Broadway: Both locals and expresses are called "Q" so nobody will pass up any trains.
Going South on Brighton: At Prospect Park, the announcement will be made as to whether the train is local or express, at which point the customers can decide what they want to do. The passengers, either by the conductor or by signage, will be assured that the express can only pass one local between Prospect Park and Brighton Beach, and will also be reassured that no express will pass a local before the local gets to Church Ave. Therefore, if the train turns out to be a local, the only stops that MAY be inconvenienced and may wish to get off are those going to Newkirk, Kings Hwy, Sheepshed Bay, and Church Ave. However, speaking from experience, many passengers wishing these stations usually take a local and run across the platform at express stops to see if the express is coming and then run back onto the local if it isn't, so this will be of no change. If the train turns out to be an express, the only people who will get off are those wishing service to Parkside, and anyone else will get off at the express stop before they're local stop, and in most cases, a connection will be made to the local at Church or at worst, Newkirk. Also, the trains will alternate at 1:1 local to express so that there is DEFINITELY an express behind a local and vice versa. Right now, there are still times when two of one kind come in in a row, but with this system, all trains will be labelled the same so anything is capable of being local or express.
The same system will similarly go into effect on the 7, except there will be no worry about making connections between the express and the local since service is extremely frequent. This will also make all the signage correct since all signs will say "7," and make no differentiation between local and express. I've ridden on the 7, and there's always confusion in Manhattan as to which trains are local and which are express. Passengers will be told to take whatever train comes in to avoid confusion. At Queensboro Plaza, announcements will be made.
While I haven't given much thought about it, the 6 may also be a candidate for this system as well.
ADVANTAGES OF THIS SYSTEM: the locals and expresses when they are on their main trunk line in Manhattan will be more equally distributed as to the amount of passengers they carry as they will not necessarilly pass up a local for an express or vice versa. The unequal distribution should be limited to the outerboroughs, where there is room for passengers to leave a train and wait on a platform. Also, this system is appealing to tourists. While I admit no tourist has ever conveyed to me his or her anger or frustration of not knowing why there is a diamond Q running in Manhattan as well as the circle Q, I'm sure it's got to be a little confusing. Since tourists don't usually leave Manhattan, at least most as far as I know, they should just be told that the N and R run Bway lcl, and the Q and W run Bway exp. If they see a circle Q and then later see a diamond Q they may wonder what's the difference. Also, if there is a conductor that likes to say Q local because he is a circle Q even though he is running express in Manhattan, it is likely to confuse people.
DISADVANTAGES: The only disadvantage I could see are people being angry as to having to worry about changing at Prospect Park on the way home on the Q, or Queensboro Plaza on the 7. However, since there is no stair-climbing, I believe that getting off to wait for the train behind you {knowing what it is BEFORE HAND} than going through unequal passenger distribution among trains and the confusion in Manhattan. Also, all signs on the trains will be automatically correct as each train may be a local or an express.
All comments are welcome, I know this plan may seem a bit radical, but let's keep the cursing to a minimum, lol.
"I know this plan may seem a bit radical, but let's keep the cursing to a minimum, lol."
......cursing?......woiuld not think of dat'........!
..stair climbing..?? whats dat'??
Another advantage to this is that it allows greater flexibility. Any train could be made a local or an express to alternate and keep trains in order (the occasional times where there is a lack of circle or diamond trains would be over because any train could be either). So, I definitely see an advantage to this plan. However, the disadvantage is that people often don't want to change trains, and want to know in Manhattan which train they should take for a one seat ride. If I'm going to the beach on a weekday for example, I always wait at 14th for a diamond Q so that I can sit down and get a one seat ride out to Brighton, where I may or may not change to a local depending on how much further I want to go.
It's an interesting idea. I'm not ruling it out, but one flaw is that people won't be happy giving up their seats when they find out they're on the wrong train. (OTOH, it's not like there's a net loss in seats -- everyone who loses a seat is offset by someone else who was standing who now has a seat. Still, I can't see it happening politically -- the ones who have the seats now will scream louder than the ones who don't have the seats will cheer.) Also, do you really want to force people to wait outdoors in the winter when they can currently wait underground in Manhattan for the right train?
It wouldn't work on the 6. When express service is running, all peak direction expresses go to/from Pelham Bay Park and all peak direction locals go to/from Parkchester.
Let's expand on the idea! Why not get rid of all signage on all subway trains so people get on the first train that comes. When the train reaches a station after which the track goes in two or more directions, the conductor can announce where the train is going, and people can then decide what to do. (This could be extremely helpful to even out crowds on the northbound F and V trains along 6th Avenue.)
Announcements? Forget announcements. Anyone who cares which way the train goes will ride in the front car and watch the homeballs!
(I have an ulterior motive, of course: railfan windows become a necessity.)
"Also, do you really want to force people to wait outdoors in the winter when they can currently wait underground in Manhattan for the right train?"
Good point, maybe the announcement could be made at 7th Ave, which is underground, and that may also help because if 7th Ave gets too crowded from people getting on and off then the people know they have a second shot at changing at Prospect Park.
No, at Brighton Beach in September all Q Trains will enter on A3 and leave on A4. Using only the center express tracks because of the complicated switchwork north of the station. It's easier and faster to use the switches south of the station. Right now Q trains are schedules about every 6 minutes during rush hours. Q Locals leave 2 minutes ahead of a Q Express and on a perfect day meet at Church Avenue or Kings Highway depending on Direction. But sometimes, delays happen (or the crews suck) and they fall out of order. With the September changes, it'll be harder to recover from this.
The Line Sup't swears that ALL Diamonds will arrive and leave from A3 and ALL Circles will arrive and leave from A4 at Brighton Beach. Only time will tell.
Only if they can get everything on in time. Or you'll have Q Circles crossing infront of expresses waiting to leave. Yes, they do that. I've been on a circle at Stillwell where the start lights light up and we get red over red for a incoming train to enter on the other side.
On the 7 during afternoon rush hours at TSQ, locals leave from track 1 and expresses leave from track 2. Would this change in your system?
Also, I find that if I'm boarding the train in Manhattan I'd much rather find a local and take it all the way home then find an express and change at Queensboro Plaza (a very crowded, outdoor, elevated station with a narrow platform) or Woodside (a less crowded outdoor elevated station with a narrow platform and a much smaller canopy), especially when the weather is such that I don't want to be outside. Under your system, half the people going to local stops on the 7 would have to wait outside at some point in their journey for several minutes on a dangerously crowded platform exposed to the elements. No thank you, I think I'll just stick with ducking my head into the train at Grand Central and asking "Express or local?"
Dan
"several minutes"
I believe headways on the 7 are every 90 seconds, someone please confirm? Plus you are sure that the next train is a local if you got off an express, no guessing games.
A 90-second headway is 40 trains an hour. Currently, #7 service does no better than 28 trains an hour (leaving Queensboro Plaza Manhattan-bound) in the AM peak, which is roughly a 2-minute headway.
David
forget about it,if people fail to listen to announcements when a GO occurs,much less they'll listen to an announcment saying wether the train be local or express,so its gonna remain the same.to me,this wouldnt work at all.
Okay I know this is off topic but I am putting together some information for friends overseas about what happened on 9-11 and I know that several posters on this site are members of the Fire Department. What I would like to know was what was the alarm response for the WTC disaster. The best information I have is that a total of 22 alarms were called for. This surpasses the previous high which was sixteen alarms for the 1993 bombing of the WTC. I have tried several of the fire-related web-sites but no one seems to have this information.
So as to avoid a major off-topic discussion if you have any info would you please e-mail me at RedbirdR33 @hotmail.com.
Thanks for your time and responses.
Larry,RedbirdR33
there's an article on the response on the NYtimes website this week - i don't think it has the specific info you want, but it's a decent source. the graphics are waay off though - they only list a few units from queens going to the scene on a little map they had, and that morning I pretty much saw every unit from western queens on the west side highway parked behind BMCC.
My guess is that the reporters only worked with offical fdny data, and that lots and lots of units went when they might not have offically been told to. my cousin who's with engine 6 just down the street from wtc had just got off duty around 8 and was home here in queens - no one told him to go in that i know of, but he rushed down to the local stationhouse and went in with them.
there were also lots of out of town units. i recall seeing some from huntington and irvington coming in around 11ish... there were also commondered busloads and taxiloads of them, waving helmets and gear out the windows to get through traffic.
...so, whatever offical stats you might find, the actual number is probably a lot higher.
Thanks Joe, I saw that article about the volunteers. It was nice to see them get some recognition.
Larry
no problemo.
IN 1993 FDNY struck boxes in other parts of the City to simply the response to the WTC. There was an article in the Times about it... FDNY hit a third alarm in Downtown Brooklyn that day to speed up the response without having to figure out who was available in Manhattan and shift relocated companies into houses that responded.
That 1993 record was broken a before the WTC massacre by the St. George Hotel fire in Brooklyn Heights a few years back. That was 18 alarms.
That 1993 record was broken a before the WTC massacre by the St. George Hotel fire in Brooklyn Heights a few years back. That was 18 alarms.
Is that the building with the entrance to the Clark Street IRT station?
Can anyone still confirm that & if it is true, what other Manhattan routes will be effected at the other Manhattan depot & prehaps the Bronx depots.
Two comments:
1. "Will" is future tense, but "opened" is past tense. Please choose one tense and stay with it.
2. This topic is better addressed in BusTalk.
Another comment: You might want to consider using a question mark (?) to end your questions.
- Lyle Goldman
For anyone interested and can get PBS (Ch13) There is a documentary on New York City and America when Electricity began to be used, Lighting up the City and Country. Think its worth watching
Crap about therapy. Tesla RULES.
DOCUMENATRY is wednesday night, apologies
TOO late...Tesla still RULES. Gimme high frequency energy anytime...DC traction systems still stink one hundred years later. Just change out some DC motor brushes and get all that graphite dust in your clothes and skin. Better to have 'wireless' power oscillate your cranium. CI Peter
I just like to know on how to Damange a MetroCard so like that no one else can use it? And what people do to damange MetroCards?
Use a hole punch on the mag stripe.
-Hank
Stick it in the nuker for 30 seconds
So no one else will use it?
If it's good, use it yourself; if it's used up who cares, as it's useless anyway; and if you want to damage it in case you loose it, so no one else will use it, well no point there because you wouldn't loose it on purpose.
So, why would you want to do this?
Because he wanted to murder his girl friend and did not want them to use his card as evidence against him!
(Oh.... sory... they did that one already, but they *failed* to clean the card)
I am not sure that a hole punch will suffice, enough data should remain, and it will be obvious that it was tampered with.
In the Microwave???? Isn't that a METAL oxide in the str ****KABOOM***
Or you could go to radio shack and get a bulk tape eraser, and just run the card under that.
Elias
Why so complicated things? Just throw it into a garbage disposal, won't cost anything.
I just like to know on how to Damage a MetroCard so like that no one else can use it? And what people do to damange MetroCards?
I just like to know how to damage an MBTA token so that no one else can use it? It has to be recognizable as a token, but when dropped into the hole in the turnstile mustn't allow the turnstile to unlock. What do people do to damage Tokens?
I tried drilling a hole in the token, that didn't work (the turnstile still unlocked). I tried cutting a corner off, that didn't work either. I could get the turnstile to jam if I cut the token into three pieces, but it's no longer a token.
AEM7
Changing the weight should have worked...
-Hank
I am not sure that a hole punch will suffice, enough data should remain
If you punch it in the area of the non-volatile upper track, it won't work any more. Punches in the bottom volatile tracks are harder, because a) the track is wider, and b) there are two alterating areas (leading and trailing). Take a look here to see what I'm talking about.
Was that tape developer?
Yes.
I just like to know on how to Damange a MetroCard so like that no one else can use it? And what people do to damange MetroCards?
Have a your stove give sweet love to it.
Strong magnetic fields will wipe the information off the stripe. I recommend using one of these, it should do the job quite nicely from a few meters away!
A tape recorder head demagnetizer would work just as well and cost a lot less. Not to mention the fact that they're useful as well if you do a lot of work with tape recorders.
-Robert King
Yeah and I work with CASSETTE TAPE alot. Most demagnetizers are now only in cassette cartridges, so you just put 'em in the deck and hit play.
The old "wand type" ones are supposed to be more effective but can't seem to find them anymore (damn CDR's!).
Of course when working with any demangetizer, I keep other cassette tapes and magnetic cards (including Metrocards) at least 6 feet away from the work being done.
I wounder if any cleaning products can damange a MetroCard?
Ok Bus Boy, it's damage, not damange, and I forgot to take my metrocard out my pocket and washed and nothing happened.
Look, Mr. Stuck-In-Newbie-Mode, there's no need to correct everyone and everything for spelling. And there's definately no reply needed with the simple words "Ok", "I agree with you" or anything like that. It takes the joy out of reading. Of course I can always put the killfile to use. There's no hostility needed here and definately not from you.
You know, I don't feel like arguing, so OK
Actually If you wash it long enough the shape can get somewhat distorted.
I think Q46 Nova means how to Damage a Metrocard's information inside the magnetic strip, Am I correct?
Wouldn't just be easier to keep the Metrocard in your pocket, and not lose it?
Or tear it up when you no longer want it?
I agree with you 100%, I wouldn't want to damage a Metrocard at all.
Tear it? These things are really hard to rip. Almost as if they don't.
Make the card un-useable --- just bend it, duhhhh
Damage the data --- scratch it, duhhhh
P.S. getting it dirty or greasy won't do it, because the card will go thru your washing machine & come out just like a Timex.
Mr rt__:^)
But back down to this again.....
Why would someone want to damage a good metrocard, when they could just use it. And if they want to damage it so no one else can use it in case they loose it, well there's not much point to that, as they would never know if they were going to loose it, and they would have lost it before they could damage it......so not much point to that..........confused now?
At my depot folks bend them all the time ... weekly or monthlys that they are using for the last time vs. throwing them away.
The MetroCard police (yes TA employees with guns) have visited us with a audit trail in hand of the cards use. In a incident that I remember they thought it was one of our employees (driver, etc.). It wasn't. Did they ever catch the guy/gail that was screwing around with some cards ... they never told us, but they were looking for him/her & knew what stations/times he/she frequented.
We've talked about this before, but not recently.
Mr t__:^)
Why all this jazz about trying to damage a MetroCard? Who would want to do that anyway? Here's the $64,000.00 question of the day - how do you change the encryption on the card so it registers as having more money?
I would like that, Only if I could make my metrocard a unlimited card like the employees have at MTA.
step one. But a magnetic card reader/writer for a computer. That sets you about $400, I haven't found anything cheeper.
Is there something like that, that's in stores, or in special places?
If you have connections you can...
1. Get someone from behind the booth to put $80.00 (88.00) on your card for free or at a HUGE discount (40.00)
2. Somehow get a hand on one of those fare input devices (again requires MTA connections outside of just stealing it)
Good Luck with that. Don't get caught out there!
Why don't you just walk into a store, find a nice item you like, put it in your coat and walk on out?
Why would he be wearing a coat in the summer?
Thought the trick to that a while ago was just creasing the card in a certain area and then leaving it in the runner. Beside, they have hackers working for the MTA whose sole job is to beat the Metrocard and correct those loopholes
Yes, but they will never reveal all the loopholes as they'd be out of a job. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
how do you change the encryption on the card so it registers as having more money?
I don't actually think it is encrypted. However (aside from the obvious fact that it is illegal) the next time the station controller or bus farebox communicates with the central system, either a balance mismatch (in the case of a higher-than-expected balance on a valid card) or an invalid card (in the case of a made-up card serial number, or a serial number of an expired card or not-yet-encoded card) will register.
I don't know if that will trigger an immediate invalid card update to all the station controllers/fareboxes when they next check in, or whether it is just flagged to watch for further activity.
In any event, eventually the card will get marked as invalid and won't work, or (if you routinely use only a few stations) you'll be arrested and asked to explain yourself, the same as happens when someone uses an employee pass inappropriately. My suspicion is that even if it doesn't invalidate on the next poll, the card will be disabled within 3 uses (assuming at least one update between uses).
The only reason I haven't bothered to figure out the encoding and explain it here is because somebody would get the bright idea to use it, get busted, and then complain to me (or worse).
Oh, and the stripe isn't a standard width, etc. since (as my earlier scans show) it is a thin full-length upper track and two wider half-length lower tracks. The turnstiles and bus fareboxes write the lower tracks alternately. I think the only equipment that writes the upper track is the encoder machines at Jay St. (which also imprint the serial number/expiration date on the back of the card).
>>>I think the only equipment that writes the upper track is the encoder machines at Jay St.<<<
I always thought that the cards were shipped blank, except for the serial number, and encoded at the point of sale. That's the way we do gift cards in the retailing world.
Peace,
ANDEE
How about running the metrocard on those store desensitizers, so you won't beep through the exit. If it wipes credit card info off, it should wipe off metrocard info off as well
I would think something as simple as a lit match would do the job.
Exactly, I didn't really see the whole point right from the beginning.
How about just cutting the damn thing in half?? Yeah, That'll work!
easy run a simple MAGNET over it !!
I am sure someone else said this too .................
Wegman's Food Markets of Rochester NY is apparently marking their food packages with colored lettered dots to help customers determine the nutritional value of the product.
These dots are white letters on different color backgrounds. While most of the the marks are two letters over the background, there are several that are single letter, and remind me of the NYC Subway route signs.
The single letter markings are
D (purple background) Diabetes Exchanges
L (light blue backgound) Lactose Free
L (light green background) Lean
G (orange background) Gluten Free
N (pale red background) Contains Nuts
V (green background) Vegan
I know that the background colors aren't right, but they still remind me of the subway route markers when I see them.
I haven't seen them in any of the three Wegmans I frequent
John,
It is my impression that the program is just getting started, and it will only be on Wegman brand products.
The brochure rack of one of your Wegmans should have a brochure called Wegman's Wellness Keys, with a row of the subway like route symbols below it. Watch for it!
Remember, the symbols will only appear on Wegman brand products!
Wegmans is one of the most progressively run supermarket chains around.
The closest Wegmans to me from NYC is in Nazareth, Pa. Kinda like a Balduccis/A&P kitsch in the middle of farmland. CI Peter
After seeing some of the ridiculous prices being asked for these books at train shows and the internet, I was surprised to see new copies still on the shelf at my local hobby shop.
Subway to the World's Fair (6 copies) priced at $8.00 each.
Building the Independent Subway (2 copies) priced at $14.00 each.
Yup. My rule of thumb is: I never bid for Fred Kramer's books (aka 'Bells & Whistles' Publications) on the web as they are relatively easy to find at hobby shops and/or at train memoribilia shows.
Chances are you will pay more for them at ebay even if you are the only bidder.
I guess these sellers with the high prices are assuming that the books are OOP, and they're really not.
Besides Kramers Books, there a new entry on the market. Morning Sun
Books has just released "New York City Trolleys in Color".
The written rhetoric with questionable statement of factuality is forgotten
with the elocution of 128 pages of full color photos.
It's a must purchase for any "Trolley Aficionado" as yours truly.
O.K., it's a $59.95 suggested list for a hard cover publication.
Available thru the BERA gift shop, with discount for members.
;-) Sparky
Most Morning Sun books do turn up brand new at the bigger train shows at up to a 20% discount from MSRP.
If you're saying what I think you're saying, I agree, the pictures are the best part of any rapid transit publicaton, but don't always believe the captions below them.
Karl,
It takes a lot to get me foaming, and you read my posting correctly.
With the 20% off list, it was better then me Branford Discount, but
I couldn't wait ... Had to have it now!!! Will look for a second clean
copy for my collection.
As you said, the captions & commentary are frivolous in sections, the
photos are worth the cost. Your thing is the Brooklyn Lexington El,
and now they've got Sparky whizzzziiiiinnnnnng about his favorite
subject Brooklyn & Queens Transit Trolleys. Many good pre PCC shots
also. My favorite Brooklyn cars are there, the six thousands.
I better calm down, or I'll boil my hypertension. Just wanted to
spread the news about a GOOD NEW BOOK.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
It sounds as if your new book must be something. You apparently feel about it the way I feel about Watson's "Brooklyn Elevated".
A good friend who used to live in Bushwick (Greene & Evergreen) shares your passion for the trolleys. It would seem as if this new book you are recommending would make a great present for him. He is 78, retired, and really loved Watson's "Brooklyn Trolleys".
I will be watching at the shows to see if I can get a look at it, and maybe find a good price on a copy.
Karl B
Karl,
What can I say, I have both of Watson's Books [two copies of the
trolleys], but this new book, far exceeds them, beyond the Borough
of Kings. Third Avenue Transit in Manhattan, Bronx & Westchester.
[Rode some of the Yonkers lines in my youth]. Brooklyn & Queens
Transits operation, PCC & prior. South Brooklyn Railway, not
often remembered or pictured. The final trolley to operate in
New York State, the Queensboro Bridge Line. [Spent some time there
also]. And all in living color.
What I found negative, besides some of the rhetoric, was the omission
in the Preserved Cars of New York City, the two cars in Maine.
The Seashore Trolley Museum is home to Brooklyn's 4547 &
Third Avenue's 631, which are restored and they were not included.
[I may be expressing some bias about these cars, being we
were financial sponsors of both.] Currently 631 is operational.
This book is a definite must for your young friend in Bushwick, ASAP.
Any others on the board, have seen and read this book, please post
your comments. I'm esthetic about it and now ranting. Gotta go.
;-) Sparky
The Interborough Fleet is a treasure but many photos have incorrect captions. My favorite error is the one that says I think 239 st yard but very obviously is on the center track of an el, Jerome I guess. Another says "on the Dyre line" with the Lex-Woodlawn-Flatbush signs in the train obvious, plus I know for a fact it was 161/Jerome.
Karl, that's absolutely correct. Because the Kramer books appeal to our 'special market' they are treated as OOP by sellers and books collectors even though they are current. Most places that do carry 'Bells & Whistles' publications only stock a small quantity for just those reasons.
I boarded a Slant diamond Q at 14 St today at 5:40pm. I rode out to Prospect Park. It took abnormally long and we stopped many times. Finally I got off at PP wanting to get a hippo Q to go to Parkside to take some photos. I got off at PP at 6:00pm and didn't get to Parkside until 6:40pm. After my diamond Q, there was a long wait until another train came, which was a circle Q, but it was 100% crammed, at least where I was standing on the platform and I could not get on. I then watched three diamond Q's come and go. One circle Q came in there, but it was announced that it would be going express to Church and then to Kings Highway. Not only skipping all the local stops, but also Newkirk. So I had to wait 40 minutes to go one stop. I now take back everything I said last month about West Side IRT service being much worse than the Brighton Service I rode for seven months last year. This Q service is utterly disgusting.
So I had to wait 40 minutes to go one stop.
Ever think of walking?
No. I'd answer you by saying I wanted to stay in the system because I was planning on photographing *subways* from the Parkside platforms, then crossover and get back on, BUT, I am on a monthly... Ok, my real excuse is that it is a bad area and although I don't think it would have been too hard to follow the subway from street level, I'd rather not venture out there. ALSO, IT WAS RAINING! And I wasn't in a rush. I just wanted to go one stop...
OH,COME ON!!!Prospect Park station...?? A real bad area??? I go thur there all the time and I dont see the element of what you refer to as a ''BAD area''.I dont want this to be one of those ''racial things'',but maybeyou where at an diadvantage by waiting so long for a train to a station you wanted to take pictures of...I don't know,but I DISAGREE with your statement. You take care and try to have some fun next time you go out....God bless...
That use to be my old sumway station b4 I moved into the trainles void on ur map, The baddest thing about Prospect Park Station or that area was the food from the Blimpies that use to be one the corner, just live n feel free to travel
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything. What I meant by "bad area" was that 1) it's not Disneyland and 2) I have never walked around up there before and I like to be semi-familiar with a place before I start wandering around it on a dreary day in the late afternoon looking for another subway station. Look, at the end of the day, if I had a darn good reason, yes, I would walk between PP and Parkside. But I don't feel that today I had such a darn good reason.
Like i said,you were in a bad space at the time.hey im not knocking you for your feelings,I wouldn't walk around the BUS TERMINAL at a certain hour,and if i didnt have to go there from time to time... I wouldn't...ever. So dont take whjat i said personal... you enjoy your evening...
This area is not as bad as it once was, and walking the streets in late afternoon, even for us "fair-skinned" folks, is reasonably safe.
I grew up on Ocean Av between Parkside and Lincoln Rd (Prospect Park Station). It is just one very long uninterrupted block between them, with the park on one side and the tracks on the other. We always assumed it was the longest uninterrupted residential stretch in the city. While it may not be NYs richest neighborhood, it is not dangerous, and the block has some very nice houses in the middle.
Ever think of going to Church and riding back a stop?
Yes, but NB local service seemed only a bit more frequent than SB service (aka I saw 2 NB circle Q's while I waited and I believe they were towards the beginning of my 40 minute wait) and I was getting ready to just cross over at PP and head back into the city.
"Yes, but NB local service seemed only a bit more frequent than SB service "
Hmm, no wonder they did a Battery of southbounds then....
How was he supposed to know there was a 40-minute gap before waiting 40 minutes?
Why didn't any of the diamonds run local to fill in the gap? Are the 1/2/3 dispatchers vacationing in Brooklyn or something?
That must have been it :)
If you don't know by now. The Brighton is the best/worst line. When it wants to be its best and run on schedule in 3-5 min intervals its great, but like BMdoobieW said it gets bad after living on the line for 18 years at Beverley Rd, there are days you want to walk. And for anyone who felt they may offend someone by saying the are is rough, it is, to this day I won't walk on E 21st or Ocean Avenue even if you paid me.
Please it ain't that bad. Look at the platforms next rush hour. From Newkirk on north the color of the faces on the platform are changing as well as the hats people wear as well.
I've ridden that line for over 30 years, any line can get screwed up like that. A single delay can effect scheduling
I would have given up after 20 minutes and just walked. Unless you're elderly or disabled, or you have small children, most others would have as well.
Thats only today the West Side IRT mess goes on every day until Sept.
Yeah I guess. But I had just spoken so highly of the Brighton Line previously and I was very shocked that it would turn on me like this. I mean we'd been through sooo much, 7 months of daily commutes last year :(
I'm afraid the West Side IRT has been messed up for at least 12 years and will continue to be messed up until much more local service is scheduled between 96th and 42nd. That is, unless you don't consider it messed up for the 55th, 66th, 53rd, and 33rd busiest stations in the system to have about 8 tph (of IRT-sized trains) in the afternoon rush in the peak direction.
Quite rare... a joyful line only during Middays without track work.
The Brighton Line usually rocks! It's combination of subway / open cut / embankment / elevated running, express service, and cars with railfan windows is very unique and makes for a great time...when the trains run.
I meant to say "Its" not "It's"
its not utterly disgusting pal,its simply when something goes wrong somewhere,we gotta suffer for it and wait it out.im suprised they didnt send 1 of those diamond Q's local to fill the gap in local service.what the hell was wrong with the tower anyway?those morons
I knew you were all worried but here she is at Parkside, yesterday (Tuesday) at 6:43pm, heading north.
Hmmm... when were we worried about 2786? 5200 has been running on the Q Local since the weekend. Have you seen her?
I won't be around for a few days, I'll be taking a trip to Albany for freshman orientation at the University they got over there... the orientation starts at 8 AM on Thursday, conveniently placed when absolutley no trains arrive beforehand. Also convieniently, they offer lodging the night before for an extra $40. You know you're in the state capital when that happens!
Anyway, I'm aiming for the Turboliner at 4:25 PM, how's the crowd level on it? If I can get ready early enough, I'll might end up going for the Ethan Allen Express at 2:45 PM (poorly named, it makes all Amtrak stops along the way, but I digress...).
Which Empire Corridor trains run with the Heritage cars? I got one on the Ethan Allen once coming back (with an Amfleet café, go figure!). Is there any set equipment/train assignment?
Which Empire Corridor trains run with the Heritage cars? I got one on the Ethan Allen once coming back
Adriondack usually sports heritage coaches, although I saw those very coaches going to Chicago on #46 on June 30, so I have no clue where they are now. Heritage coaches belonging to the Adriondack fleet have also been hanging around 30th Street, I assume all because Gunn is on fire. So you just have to try your luck. Ethan Allen is a cool train.
AEM7
Yeah, I just remembered the ones on the Ethan Allen that day were Adirondack cars, I swiped a VIA rail Canada litter bag from a shelf somewhere on the car.
Do you mind me asking what college you are going to? I applied to both Rennsalaer Poly Tech and SUNY Albany up there, actually the fact that it was just a train ride from home was a big draw.
Did you say that there is a Turbotrain in operation up there? Damn I wish I had known that last weekend when I was in Syracuse. I had plans to ride back to Philly by train, but was out voted by my parents, and had to endure 4 hours on the G!@#$%^ highway. I guess I'll be heading up there again soon if there's a Turbotrain about.
SUNY Albany. I chose it because it was
1 - Cheap
2 - You could go in all 4 directions by train (and there's a city with a subway in all of those directions)
3 - I'm close enough to home to come down for holidays, but far enough that they don't expect me on weekends
Yes, there is a Turboliner that runs down from Albany at about Noon every day, and runs up from NY at 4:25 Mon-Thurs. I think it also has a southbound run from Syracuse that arrives in NYP at around 9ish, but I'm not sure on that one.
2 - You could go in all 4 directions by train (and there's a city with a subway in all of those directions)
Where is the subway in Buffalo?
2 - You could go in all 4 directions by train (and there's a city with a subway in all of those directions) (Henry)
Where is the subway in Buffalo? (AEM7)
There's one a little farther west, in Chicago.
Or closer, in Toronto.
Picky, picky, picky ... Someone's in a snit and bitchy. Heh.
Sorry to say, m8 ... even the city of the stolen BISONBURGER has a genuine subway ... have a peek here at what genuinely IS a SUBWAY. Now maybe not the the T, or the Q, but it DOES meet the requirements. Montreal, NYC, Beantown and Beefaloo ... run rings around you logically there, eh. :)
You can take in the whole Boofalo subway and surface transit starting on the previous link. I can though, as an upstater, understand the "HUH?!?!?!" factor ... I didn't believe it either until I ended up on it on "Official NYS business" and had to show my badge to beat the fare. Heh.
There is an article on the Buffalo system on this site under American transit systems.
The Turbo is a DELIGHTFUL ride, fast and VERY smooth. The regular Amfleets in service here are also very nice and have the added benefit of 110AC outlets so you don't have to burn out your laptop battery. The Turbos only have hotel power in business class if that makes any difference in your choice. The trains run *ON TIME* between NYC and Rensselaer ... one drawback though is that the train does NOT stop in Albany (Joe Bruno has it stop in his little trailer park city (pop 7700) of "Rensselaer" but there's cabs and a bus that will take you to Smallbany. SUNY Albany, I trust? If so, you might want to check with the college and see if THEIR bus will come get you when you arrive. I don't know if it still runs across the Dunn Memorial Bridge to Brunoland. It used to but the schedule was limited.
Welcome to Smallbany in advance ... you can smell the bacon being made in the capitol every day. :)
Actually, the first time I went my friend and I ran from downtown Albany over the bridge to Rensselaer since we'd missed the bus and wanted to make the same train. And we would have made the train (Late Shore Limited held up our train) but the bridge we decided to use to cross the tracks wasn't open yet :) (the one by the new station). It would help if they put the fence on both sides of the bridge, instead of the side we arrived at after crossing.
Heh. Well, when y'all move up here, you'll see that catch-22 and Darwinism as a way of life are one and the same. You're moving to where the fine legislative sausage is crafted daily, the next best thing to Nebraska. But you'll get used to it. Yeah, would be nice if they'd closed it off but you'll hear "but the taxpayers would get restless if we did" ... over yonder in Brunoville, everyone's a fine republican if they know what's good for 'em ... over here, it's mostly democrats (at least in the city) and independents throughout the rest of the county (teaches our electeds to NEVER take us for granted and we switch sides just to keep them dancing) ...
I think you'll like it around here in all sincerity - it's a fairly laid back place as long as you don't get in other people's faces. :)
Oh ... by the way ... when you get up here, you'll arrive at the old squat heap you remember from the last time. The politicos are still applying gold leaf to the new station that was supposed to open two years ago - it still ain't done yet owing to a little argument as to whether it's going to be called the "Rensselaer CDTA station" or the "Joseph M Bruno Amtrak station." So it's STILL closed.
CSX got their money from the state but no commitment as to WHEN they'll run tracks to it, so the old dump is still there and so is the closed bridge. Welcome to Smallbany, state capitol where nothing is as it seems. You'll get used to it and actually find it amusing and curious. When I moved up here years ago, I was dumbfounded by what passes for normal here. But once you get used to it, it's actually a pretty cool place. But much like Kankakee here and there too. Plenty of good eats, plenty of fun downtown until they roll up the sidewalks at 10PM. Only downside is the wimmens are downright SURLY. :)
Something that may never happen, but then again, never say never
Suppose at 168 st, the C train branched east, under the Hudson one stop into Jersey. Riders exiting Fort Lee would pay a $1.50 extra, or $3 when entering (similar more modern deal to the Rockaway extension when they started)
How do u think this would effect the area, would people actually run areas around to use this service into NYC? Could this even pull enough revenue for other projects set back because of "lack of funds"? Or would this create a new set of conjestion issues to unbareable to deal with
prooving profitable 4 the PATH, but then again that Downtown Manhattan
Just an idea for the day, give it a thought
Branch west, not east, but all probably figured that was a typo :-|
better yet, extend the A to jersey (lets make the longest line even longer!) and run the C up to 207 full time.
Realistically speaking, however, this won't work. PATH and NJT already provide this service (NJ to manhattan rail transportation), and I don't think the MTA is going to build a tunnel, a few miles of track, and a new station to compete with those services.
PATH does not provide this service from Fort Lee! Fort Lee is about 8 miles north of where the PATH crosses. Very different area and would serve a different suburban territory. PATH is mainly Hudson and Essex counties. The extension discusses here would serve Bergan Passaic and Rockland. Only Bergan directly, but the people from the others (at least, maybe other counties also).
. . .and I don't think the MTA is going to build a tunnel, a few miles of track, and a new station to compete with those services.
No problem. We can connect the A to NJ (and eliminate a lot of street congestion in Manhattan) by taking back the lower level of the GWB.
Have a huge park-n-ride lot at the station, with "reasonable" rates, and you might just be able to pull it off... I mean, you can get to most places in Manhattan via subway, and an elevated toll for the upper level would convince people to take the train from NJ instead of resorting to crowding the bridge / other crossings.
>>>Have a huge park-n-ride lot at the station...<<<
Where would you put it? Have you seen how developed Fort Lee, NJ is these days?
Peace,
ANDEE
the stub tracks at 168st were built for this purpose... to send trains over the G.W. look for it in ''building the indepenent'' book,and also the book on the '' hudson river crossings''
How about the A to Garden State Plaza via Rt.4. It can run under Route 4!
Can you imagine how bad the traffic on Route 4 would be while they did subway construction. Traffic on 4 is already murder during rush hours and on Saturdays for the Plaza. Add in construction and you'd have total meltdown on 4 and 17 in Paramus.
>>>...total meltdown on 4 and 17 in Paramus. <<<
Total meltdown at the 4/17 interchange occurred about 25 years ago.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
they rebuilt it 2 years ago. Try going from 17 south to 4 east and the new ramp they built is a beautiful view because it goes 8 stories in the air.
Interstate it! "Write to your congress man for it to be a three lane instead of 2 lanes!" Also it is a good excuse to build a RR line there. They will probly double stack or triple stack it. Ground is service road and maybe RR. Second is Interstate manhatten bound (south then east) and third is northbound with maybe a RR on it in the middle.
Route 4 is already three lanes in both directions. Also, that area is highly developed. They can't turn it into a main road/service road deal without MAJOR construction. And with houses and businesses already on or very close to the road, double- or triple-decking 4 would be political suicide. Plus, you have to remember that 4 feeds directly into Route 95, before it crosses the GW Bridge. To have more traffic lanes feeding into the GW Bridge will only bring more traffic jams on the bridge. It's just not that simple.
And NJ has this thing called home rule where the towns have emormous power. The town I used to live in (Teaneck) will not permit any development along Route 4. So that alone kills any rail plan along route 4
Then guess what happens - the FRA gets to oversee the subways maintenance and operations, because since it goes between two states, it now is involved in interstate commerce, which is mandated by the US Constitution to be controlled by the federal government. The subways will be very different, and you might find the difference hard to take.
Then guess what happens - the FRA gets to oversee the subways maintenance and operations, because since it goes between two states, it now is involved in interstate commerce, which is mandated by the US Constitution to be controlled by the federal government. The subways will be very different, and you might find the difference hard to take.
Then the Constitution needs amending!
Sure, sounds like a good enough reason. Look at all the other important things they amended it for-abolish slavery, prohibition, ending prohibition, voting rights, freedom of speech...may as well add the all-important 'extend the subway to New Jersey' amendment.
-Hank
Well it's more sensible than prohibition!
My beard will be longer than the one Santa Claus has by the time such an amendment even gets written. I might even be worm chow by the time it even gets considered. Congerss has much bigger fish to fry, and they will fool around with more interesting things ( to them anyway ), so forget that one. The Second Ave. subway is very necessary, yet our lawmakers blather around for years about getting it built.
The DC Metrorail and St. Louis Metrolink both run between states. In fact, the DC Metrorail runs through federally controlled DC, yet neither of these systems is FRA regulated to the slightest degree.
The DC Metro got a free pass on interstate regulation courtesy of Congress in 1976. Metrolink is light rail which either has no connection to the "National Rail System" or a waiver from the FRA. I suspect #1.
WMATA has one other oddity -its Police are empowered in 3 jurisdictions: Maryland, Virginia and DC.
Don't confuse them with the facts.
Actually, the Constitution does not "mandate" that the Federal government regulate interstate commerce. It just authorizes Congress to pass laws for that purpose. The states remain free to act within their respective jurisdictions in ways that affect interstate commerce so long as Congress hasn't passed a law claiming exclusive power to regulate whatever, so long as the state regulation doesn't conflict with federal laws, and so long as the state is not imposing an unreasonable (whatever that means) burden on interstate commerce in doing so.
Bottom line? Having IND tracks shared with LIRR brings in FRA. Running the IND to NJ doesn't -- unless they do something silly, such as hooking the IND into the Erie Mainline.
Create a quasi-government private corporation to manage it. Like PATh is set up, because the PANY&NJ it a private corporation reciving grants from NY state.
PATH does not even come close to making a profit. It is a tremdous cash drain. Useful service, but like all transit, it loses money.
Was just an idea I threw out. If anything, New Jersey Transit would probably fight it because it may conflict with the future success of the Hudson Bergen light rail, which they would like to extend that far someday.
It'd probably help... if people could take the HBLR to the subway it would be a tremendous boost for NJT!
Before servicing people in New Jersey, let's focus on New York!
Besides, that would be politically and fiscally impossible.
The MTAs constant reason/excuse for slow or no expansion is always "not enough money"
Funny, this is very similar to the arguements about the Chunnel in London b4 it was built :) Cause of the Chunnel, people now take daytrips bet Eng and France like a trip from 14th to 42nd.
I agree with what u say about the political part, but hey, this may benefit everyone. If this could be done to which people find it easier, hance park n ride, think of the new revenue that would flow in the system.
Maybe we could maintain or current fare, and build up some much needed funds to build the new lines we need in the city.
But again this was just an idea I threw out
1. The MTA is a New York State agency. It shouldn't run into New Jersey.
2. Putting this line into New Jersey would hardly raise funds for other construction, and would probably be more of a drain on transit's resources than a plus.
3. How would it look if the NEW YORK CITY transit started servicing New Jersey when Queens and parts of Brooklyn are already without trains and Staten Island has no Subway connection?
To the first part of point #3, are we forgetting Metro-North, Pascack and Port Jervis Lines (and yes I know those are regional, not subways, but still)
Again I agree and respect ur arguements, was just a thought thrown out for the group
One of my current and main annoyances is that there are a good few old lines that run through Brooklyn and Queens and provide service.
>The M train could used the LIC Branch as and express to
Jamaica (sevicing Glendale, Middle Village, Kew Gardens)
>A line could run from the L to the N straight across Brooklyn
>The R could continue in SI
These could help out a lot
Operated by NJT under contract. The MTA pays NJT to provide service to those portions of the lines in NY. This was not new construction, but neccesitated by the failure of the Erie Lackamoney and later decision by the feds to force Conrail (1983?) out of the commuter business, putting the burden of these trains completely upon the states.
The opposite occurs with Metro North. ConnDOT pays the MTA to provide service in the state of Connecticut.
New construction and new lines are a very differnt animal from preventing failure of the existing service.
-Hank
1. The MTA is a New York State agency. It shouldn't run into New Jersey.
What, legally speaking, would prevent a merger of the MTA and either or both of NJT and Condot?
How would it look if the NEW YORK CITY transit started servicing New Jersey when Queens and parts of Brooklyn are already without trains and Staten Island has no Subway connection?
I think the last part of that would give an excuse to run via NJ. It would be a plausible Manhattan - Staten Island route. Local service could also be provided for sake of the revenue it would provide.
LIRR provides LI to NYP & Flatbush Service
MN provides NY & CT (former CR nee PC etc.) service to GCT
NJT provides NJ service to HOB & NYP
Do you see a pattern here? The RRs go to an NYC *Terminal*
NYCT provides Subway Service, and
PATH provides cross-river local service.
So... PATH is the proper agency to provide additional cross river local service.
Were a Manhattan North service be desireable, PATH should provide it, and might likely enough run it down the WEST SIDE LINE next to AMTK to NYP or mor likely into a Javits Center Complex together with the 42nds Street Line, the 14th Street Line, and my most highly favoured 23rd Street Subway! : )
Elais
Well Elias, u raise a good point, thats the purpose of the PATH, but how much money does the PATH have to run a new line up the west side and over again; also that may become a whole conflict with Amtrack.
I threw the idea out because a branch over may pull more people into NYC from the north. The money raised using this could be used for future lines.
How much money does the PATH have to run a new line up the west side and over again?
How much money does the PATH have to run a new line up the west side and over again?
It doesn't matter how much money PATH has... It is a government agency, and if the service is needed, then bonds can be floated and funding found.
It is NOT taking service from AMTK...
AMTK is an intercity service... Their stations are generally one hour apart (Given that Newark is only a satelite station for NYP... ie. you cannot buy an NYP-NEW AMTK ticket anyway.)
The H&M was a connecting Railroad connecting several New Jersey lines with NYC across the river (For those RRs not as well healed as the PRR who *could* build thier own tunnels and terminal across the sea.) Since H&M was providing a viable and needed service, NY&NJ colaborated via the Port Authority to keep the service running after the financial embarassment of H&M.
So a new service, while not part of H&M would probably be a PATH service since that agency is already in this sort of cross channel busines..
Elias
You make good points and thanks for clearing a bit of that up. Was wondering with the mess of levels at 34th, how would the PATH get to turn west and access that line. Could also mak the arguement that it doesnt have to and can be a seperate entity, but it still would be nice to see it
Nah... I wouldn't consider connecting the 6th Ave PATH with any West Side Line that might be built.
But I *do* have a plan for a 34th Street Line.
Maybe I will resurect that plan and post it on my website.
Elias
But I *do* have a plan for a 34th Street Line.
So do I.
Maybe I will resurect that plan and post it on my website.
Maybe I should get a website and race you to it!
A monorail that looped 23rd and 42nd? :) Considered that
Maybe I will resurect that plan and post it on my website.
Ok... you talked me into it. Here is a first look at The 34th Street LRV and Mall
Elias
But politically, running a Route 4 - Manhattan rail line as a PATH service would have a better chance of making, mostly due to the PA's bi-state status, and also because PATH is under FRA rules, so it can run alongside Amtrak on the West Side without too much trouble, though not on the same tracks. Since the MTA is only a New York agency (the New Haven line MN trains are run by the MTA for ConnDOT), it needs to focus on providing addtional subway service to parts of NYC that so desperately need it, projects like the 2nd Avenue Subway and maybe a parallel line to the Queens Blvd IND (Super Express).
But the PA and/or NJ Transit should definitely look at this kind of a service.
Well Elias, u raise a good point, thats the purpose of the PATH, but how much money does the PATH have to run a new line up the west side and over again; also that may become a whole conflict with Amtrack.
I threw the idea out because a branch over may pull more people into NYC from the north. The money raised using this could be used for future lines.
How much money does the PATH have to run a new line up the west side and over again?
What, legally speaking, would prevent a merger of the MTA and either or both of NJT and Condot?
Techincally speaking, nothing. But, let's be realistic here. The MTA if it ran a service into NJ couldn't charge extra for trains that cross the river. And, that merger would give the New York State governor control over transit matters in New Jersey, which is a definite no-no. Consider the PA. The only way the PA can operate is through a federal permit. Otherwise, the PA couldn't exist, it is an interstate government agency. So, the Federal government would need to OK that merger, as well as the NJ governor.
I think the last part of that would give an excuse to run via NJ. It would be a plausible Manhattan - Staten Island route. Local service could also be provided for sake of the revenue it would provide.
Again jurisdiction. Further, last time I checked Staten Island has a fraction of the amount of people of Queens or Brooklyn. I think that servicing Staten Island through New Jersey would be a slap in the face to New Yorkers.
last time I checked Staten Island has a fraction of the amount of people of Queens or Brooklyn.
Agreed. Staten Island really doesn't need a Subway connection (at least, not as much as those in Queens and Brooklyn need to be improved), but it was a nice hypothetical situation. The indicator I particularly like for showing the difference is the average speed of the slowest bus in each borough:
Manhattan (M96): 4.3 mph
Queens (Q32): 5.6 mph
Bronx (Bx35): 5.9 mph
Brooklyn (B63): 6.0 mph
Staten Island (S42): 8.5 mph
The low speed for the s42 is a bit misleading. It's not because of traffic (if traffic were the reason for low speed buses on SI, the Hylan Blvd, Forest Ave, or Victory Blvd routes would be 'it'. THe s42 runs on rather narrow streets and some of the steepest hills in the city. The route is also winding, going out of its way to reach streets wide enough for the bus to use.
-Hank
Cause of the Chunnel, people now take daytrips bet Eng and France like a trip from 14th to 42nd.
For people, read people who live on commuter lines into a Southern Region Terminal (Waterloo (incl East), Charing X, Cannon St, Victoria, London Bridge). For anyone else, one has to first get to London, then across that urban sprawl.
Then, once you manage to get to Waterloo and convince British Customs to let you out of the country, you are likely to have a long wait because of the ridiculous check-in system at Waterloo. Then to cap it all, Eurostar is very slow. It operates on the same tracks as commuter trains via Brixton, Herne Hill, Beckenham Junction, Orpington, Tonbridge, Ashford and Sandling (not an exhaustive list by any means!) before finally getting onto its own line. This route is not only slow, but very indirect.
It would be much better if a line avoiding London and serving the main lines were built. Something like (Channel Tunnel) - Canterbury - (a new tunnel under the Thames) - Shoeburyness - Chelmsford - Stansted Airport - Bedford - Banbury would provide a much more useful connection for the majority of British people who live North of the Thames.
Oh yes, and get rid of the imbeciles at British customs! I had to show my passport once to a Frenchman and three separate times to Englishmen to get back into England (once before leaving Lille, once on the train and once on arrival in London - wouldn't on the train be enough - it's all the Swiss do)!
We had this discussion a while ago about having NYC subway lines going into jersey, If the C Line goes into jersey, 1)Your Screwing the hell out of the PATH service, 2)It would cost billions of dollars to have the tunnels built, etc.
I understand, was just an idea thrown out.
"C Line goes into jersey, 1)Your Screwing the hell out of the PATH service"
How so, could u clarify? In terms of passengers or just stepping into their territory
If the PATH built a line from Fort Lee under the Hudson and down the West Line (suggested by Elias earlier) they would now be providing service to central and nothern NJ
What I meant was that if the C Line goes into Jersey, people would start using the C Line and not using the PATH, causing the PATH to lose money.
Or maybe the opposite. If you hooked these lines together, you'd create a new market for PATH and increase ridership on all PATH lines by creating new useful destinations.
True
Except PATH doesn't service the area in discussion.Talk about extending the L to Hoboken, yes, you're biting PATH. But there's currently only one way from Fort Lee to Manhattan, and it doesn't involve rails.
-Hank
The PATH is a good distance from the GWB that any new service by the GWB wouldnt affect the # riding the PATH, unless the line extended and connect with the Pascack Valley Line (at eg: Hackensack) of NJT
Who ever built the line, I still believe it may bring a food of new riders on the 8th Ave line, and more profits for the MTA to do other projects (which was the idea behind the thought)
I remember as a kid in 1998 when I posted my first message that got 30 responses (when 30 use to be alot) and we discussed the possible service patterns when everything opens up. So in your opinions what will the service pattern be post bridge reconstruction?
Weekdays:
Q Express via Broadway line
D (reinstated as previous) 6th Ave Express
Weekends
Q Local in Brooklyn, express in Manhattan via Broadway line
B train (reinstated as previous) Fate of the W train is questionable
What is your suggestion for the weekend D and weekday B?
My suggestion and a strong one is that no B or D gets on the bridge unless the N gets there first. Enough already with the Sea Beach in the Montague Tunnel. Time is now ripe to start preparing my train to resume its BMT status as a bridge train, and maybe making it an express again in both Manhattan and Brooklyn. Maybe make the B or D a local and put one of those in the tunnel. I hope the TA does the right thing. I believe express and a shorter time via bridge will add to the ridership for people who want to go somewhere fast. Right now you can't do that with the N and it's a pisser.
>>>Maybe make the B or D a local and put one of those in the tunnel.<<<
Can't do that, but you could always make the main West End service the W and run it through the Montague Tunnel. Run the B only on weekdays to supplement the W. Yes, the Sea Beach should be out of the tunnel, and once all four bridge tracks are back in service, it will be back on the bridge.
Nobody will go for that plan.
We all know how David always gets pissed off that we contemplate possible service alternatives, but there's one thing we know:
Currently, the following services run through DeKalb:
2 Brighton trains
2 West End trains
1 Sea Beach train
1 Bay Ridge train.
The junction of the Sea Beach with the 4th Avenue line has the Sea Beach becoming the express train, it has to switch to become local. Since we know the TA likes to avoid complicated switches, they're not going to make the Bay Ridge an express, it'll be a local. The Sea Beach may still be a local.
The West End now has two trains, they can run them both express, or one local and one express like now. If they do the first one, the Sea Beach is local, if the latter, it's express.
At DeKalb, the 4th Avenue expresses that haven't switched off at Pacific are pointing towards, the bridge, so are the Brighton trains, that leaves 4 bridge trains (as much as needed) and 2 tunnel tracks: perfect.
Now, is anybody going to be running the M over the bridge? I don't think so. The only possibility for a local Sea Beach is if the M stops going to Southern Brooklyn and the West End gets both the B and W, with both running over the bridge. This is incredibly silly, the West End doesn't need that kind of service.
So the question is not whether the Sea Beach line will be express or not, but whether this train will be called the N or not, and whether it goes to 6th Avenue or Broadway.
At DeKalb, the 4th Avenue expresses that haven't switched off at Pacific are pointing towards, the bridge, so are the Brighton trains, that leaves 4 bridge trains (as much as needed) and 2 tunnel tracks: perfect.
Not quite. The 4th Avenue express tracks do point towards the bridge, but the 4th Avenue local tracks and the Brighton tracks have equal access to the bridge and the tunnel. It would be possible (though not necessarily a good idea) to send a 4th Avenue local over the bridge and to send a Brighton train through the tunnel.
Also, just because there are six services now doesn't mean there will be six services when the north side is reopened.
"Also, just because there are six services now doesn't mean there will be six services when the north side is reopened."
With Tunnel, Bridge Sout, and Bridge North, it would be irresponsible to run anything less than 6 services, maybe more. We need all of the cross river capacity we can get!
The number of services isn't the constraining factor here -- it's the number of TRAINS. 30 trains an hour is 30 trains an hour whether they're all Qs or 10 Q (yer welcome), 10 W, and 10 N (just an example -- nobody get excited, please).
David
Also, just because there are six services now doesn't mean there will be six services when the north side is reopened.
There have to be five. This means that one of the lines leaving DeKalb will have only one line on it. Most likely this would be the tunnel. I don't think that's enough service, and enough service with the R alone won't fit onto Queens Blvd and you can't send the R to Astoria again.
No, there have to be at least five (assuming at least one service from each branch, and at least two from the Brighton, run into Manhattan -- a reasonable assumption, I think). There could be six, or seven, or eight, or 32 (the ultimate in flexibility: one infrequent route via each of the four lines into Manhattan from each of the six Brooklyn branches, including a West End express but not a useless Sea Beach express).
I suggest they do one of two things:
Either:
B - All times 205th Street to Coney Island via West End
D - Weekdays Bedford Park to Brighton Beach via Brighton Exp.
Q - All times 57th Street/7th Avenue to Coney Island via Brighton Local
W - Weekdays Ditmars/Astoria to Bay Pkwy via West End & Bway Local
Or:
B - Weekdays Bedford Park to Coney Island via West End
D - All times 205th Street to Coney Island via Brighton Lcl.
Q - All times except nights 57th Street/7th Avenue to Brighton Exp.
W - All times Ditmars/Astoria to Bay Pkwy via West End & Bway Local
:
Either:
B - All times 205th Street to Coney Island via West End
D - Weekdays Bedford Park to Brighton Beach via Brighton Exp.
Q - All times 57th Street/7th Avenue to Coney Island via Brighton Local
W - Weekdays Ditmars/Astoria to Bay Pkwy via West End & Bway Local
Or:
B - Weekdays Bedford Park to Bay Pkwy via West End
D - All times 205th Street to Coney Island via Brighton Lcl.
Q - All times except nights 57th Street/7th Avenue to Brighton Exp.
W - All times Ditmars/Astoria to Coney Island via West End & Bway Local
:
Either:
B - All times 205th Street to Coney Island via West End
D - Weekdays Bedford Park to Brighton Beach via Brighton Exp.
Q - All times 57th Street/7th Avenue to Coney Island via Brighton Local
W - Weekdays Ditmars/Astoria to Bay Pkwy via West End & Bway Local
Or:
B - Weekdays Bedford Park to Bay Pkwy via West End
D - All times 205th Street to Coney Island via Brighton Lcl.
Q - All times except nights 57th Street/7th Avenue to Brighton Beach via Brighton Exp.
W - All times Ditmars/Astoria to Coney Island via West End & Bway Local
B, D Trains return back to normal as a promise to the riders. Leave M Train as is but those 24 minute headways are really annoying with no J. Q Local discontinued. Q Express as todays's Q Express but without the diamond shape. W gets cut or we won't have enough cars for the B and if there is anything left, put it toward the N.
>>>"M Train as is but those 24 minute headways are really annoying with no J. "<<<
Is the GO for the Willy B and Mary's on twenty four single track
still in effect?
;-) Sparky
The GO is over.
There's some weird GO anyway. M runs normal route every 24 minutes or so and then connected with the J or a shuttle bus, don't remember... I stay out of that area for railfanning.
Not anymore. That GO (midday J between Jamaica Center and Myrtle only; M on 24-minute headways due to single tracking over the bridge to accomodate DOT work) was effective for a few months but it's over now.
That's what I thought. The Willy B GO ended in June. Just toooo
lazzzzzy to check the service advisory board.
Tanks ;-) Sparky
Here I go again:
B: same as pre 7/22/01
D: same as pre 7/22/01
M: same as today
N: via bridge, express to 34th St, local to Astoria, nights via local/tunnel
Q: Same as today's diamond Q
R: Same as today
W: Astoria to Whitehall St, weekdays to 10 PM.
The least radical and most logical plan. Look for most, if not all, of it to be implimented.
Well R-27 you can guess what part of your plan I like the best. Maybe we ought to get you a job with the TA. My train could use a real advocate there.
My idea is a little different, and refers to some pre-1985 service plans:
(D)-Rush hours/middays:6th av express/Brighton express to Brighton Beach
All other times: Local on brighton to Coney Island
(B)-West End local to Coney Island nights shuttle to 36th st.
(N)-Rush hours/middays express in Brookyln,Manhattan. Via manhattan bridge. Skips DeKalb.
Evenings/weekends-local in brooklyn. Stops at DeKalb. Via bridge.
Nights-local. Via tunnel
(Q)-Rush hours/middays and evenings only-Coney Island to 57th/7av. Broadway express, Brighton local.
< W >-peak direction only. Astoria to Whitehall. Replaces N and R short turns
(M)-to Bay Parkway rush hours only. Middays to Chambers. all other times to Myrtle Av.
Curious: What was or is curently the purpose of the M train running all the way to Bay Parkway? Or even in Brooklyn for that matter? (excpt to branch off to Broad Street) Never really seen the M packed pass Chambers
Could return the B (as was prior constuction) and run the W with it
NOT! PHFTFtftftfttttt.........
(D) 6th Ave Exp to Coney Island via Brighton Local : All Times
(Q) Broadway Exp to Brighton Beach via Brighton Exp : Day Times
(W) Broadway Exp to Coney Island via West end Local : All Times
(B) 6th Ave Exp to Coney Island via West end Exp : Rush Hours
(B) 6th Ave Exp to Ninth Avenue via West End Lcl : Day Times
(N) Broadway Exp to Coney Island via Sea Beach Exp : Day Times
(N) Shuttle : Sea Beach : Nights
(R) Broadway Lcl to 95th St via 4th Ave Lcl : All Times
(M) Nassau St. Lcl to Ninth Avenue (Lower Level) Rush Hours
(F) 6th Ave Lcl to Coney Island via Culver : All times (Lcl Night)
(V) 6th Ave Lcl to Church Ave via Culaver : Day Times
(G) Crosstown to Church Avenue via Culver : Day Times (Smith 9th Night)
So put that in your smoke and pipe it!
I still don't see the point of sending the V to Church Avenue.
Do they really need all that service there? An F-circle and F-diamond should suffice.
Your right, there is no purpose in sending the V train to church avenue if it just going to END at Church Avenue
The G train could run to Smith 9th, then instead of going up to 4th Avenue to switch over, continue it to 7th, maybe Church. Its a nuisance for many riders taking the F to find out they are letting the G train you needed to catch cross ahead.
If they do extend the V express, it should do something more.
The point is to send the V as a LOCAL to church (much how the C terminates at Euclid). Then, the F can run EXPRESS, with a train to manhattan still servicing local passengers (G trains have to run local to church as well).
When the Bergen interlocking is completed, they should send some F trains express from Church to Jay in peak direction. Like maybe every other Coney Island train.
Thats a clearer explination and a good point. My next question tho is, will it become an issue to turn the V around if its on the local track? will going up to Ditmas and turn around on the express part there cause any big issue? If not, cool :)
If anything, the G should run to Church Avenue too
Church is designed to be able to turn local trains. Express service was actually run on the Culver in the 60s or 70's (can't remember which). First, G trains Ran local to church with all F trains running express. Then, F trains that terminated at Kings Hwy were scheduled to run local between along with the G train, (Coney Island F's ran peak direction express to Kings Hwy at this time). In the end, the whole plan was scrapped.
If express service was re-instituted, G trains have to go to Church to terminate, along with the V (smith-9th uses the express tracks as a turnaround).
Hope that helps.
Thanks for the clarification. Im still wondering what happens after Church Avenue
Looks like the express decends a level and 2 new express created from the local, then emerges, do u or anyone knows about this, if its true?
(that why I keep bring up the idea of using the old Bay Ridge Line
everything switch to 3 before Ditmas because the 4th was were the Culver Shuttle came in (and the true original F route).
Church avenue was originally a terminal. The Culver south of there turned off and linked up to the BMT at 9th av on the West End. However, the IND linked up to the BMT at Ditmas (for awhile, a shuttle between 9th av and Ditmas before being torn down). Church avenue remained a plausible terminal. When track work is done at Smith 9th sts., Church is the G train's terminal. Both express and local trains could continue past church or terminate at the lower level of the station.
Go to The page: http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smbklyn3.gif
This page shows how south of Church has a lower level which can be accessed by either exp. or local trains.
Thank you very much for the link (highly appreciated) :)
thats what I mean, If that bottom level could be extended, could access the Bay Ridge Branch and access the south eastern part of Brooklyn, (wouldnt look like a big empty agp on the map) and provide much needed surface
The lower level tracks were at one time conciderd for a extention west to the SEA BEACH LINE, with a branch line using the Bay ridge routing over to Flatbush ave/Nostrand area,to continue south east to Ave U.... The EL would be removed placing the line under ground,and in a open cut. At the Flatbush junction,the line would have a major transfer point to the Canarsie line[also relocated to the Bay Ridge tracks]and the IRT Nostrand subway.
As crowded as the F is going towards Brooklyn in the PM rush, they could use it. I take it to the transfer at Delancey, which the V doesn't reach, and have to wait for an F that's hard to squeeze into. The V would certainly help this.
The transfer at Delancey would be unneccessary if the V was sent EAST over the Jew Bridge.
uh ohhhh....
What in hell is the "Jew Bridge"? Are you trying to be funny, cute or sick? Come on, are you talking about the Manny B or the Willy B?
Obviously, he's referring to the bridge my parents (both Jews, one from Williamsburg and one from the LES) walked across on many a shabbos in their youth.
In fact, the settlement of Williamsburg by Jews is directly related to the construction of the Williamsburg Bridge, which allowed Jews from the Lower East Side to settle on the other side of it. Hence the early nickname "Jew Bridge."
NOT PHFTFT!
1. West End service does not need both the W and B trains. Plus, you have the M running to 9th av as well. That has trains arriving at Coney Island on 4 minute headways (a difinite no-no) and trains leaving 9th av approximately every 3 minutes. Didn't know West End service had picked up That much.
2. B/N/W share 4th av express tracks? Let's say that the B/N/W all have 8 tph. That's a grand total of 24 tph on the track! with mergings at 36th and DeKalb. How you gonna pull that off?
3. Why shouldn't the D be the Brighton express? Prior to construction, it was the express, and the Q was a crappy peak direction local. I think 6th av still would get more service than Broadway, so why shouldn't the D be an express?
4. Much as I'd like to see a Culver express re-instated, It's unnecessary. Maybe send some F trains as peak direction expresses, and send the G to Church during all times xcept nights, but there's no need for a V to Church.
Nice fantasy, but not in any way realistic dude.
The main thing is, after renovations you'll now have access to both the Brighton and Broadway
(D) will return to prior route
will return to prior: Brighton Exp, but will run up Broadway
Both will be express in Manhattan (D) 6th Ave Exp,
Bway Exp (reduce service late night or local along with D
(B) return to prior route, express up 6th Ave, ex to 36th
(W) terminated for the time being (theres no real need for it "currently", can transfer at Atlantic to get to Canal faster if u want
(N) current service, exp to 59th; can do its own skip stop for Astoria
(V) If ur just going it to Church and end it there, whats the point, its not doing anything much, but thats the every reason I say extend it over the old Bay Ridge branch; let it pick up some passengers and relieve some of the conjestion on the Brighton line
the only thing about the F running express and local is annoyance, having to get off ur train or miss ur stop cause ur on the wrong one
Again, the point of the V to Church is to be a manhattan bound local so that the F can run express (similar to the A/C configuration.)
the only thing about the F running express and local is annoyance, having to get off ur train or miss ur stop cause ur on the wrong one
Plenty of trains do something like this:
-6/7 peak direction expresses.
-A train split (you have to know which train is going where.)
-Former F peak direction express
-E trains going to Hillside (same as the A train)
As long as an announcement is made, passengers should have the right train. (or make the expresses have a diamond)
also 4/5 peak expresses,
1/9 and j/z skip stops originally ran as just the 1 and j(half would act like todays 9 and j)
Why shouldn't the D be the Brighton express?
Because I *like* the (Q) better!
And because the (D) runs at all times 205th to coney Island
The (Q) is a daytimer and threfore should be the Express to Brighton Beach. There is no point in ditzing about with the (D) routing every few hours!
Prior to construction, it was the express, and the Q was a crappy peak direction local.
Nonsense! The (Q) was the Broadway Express, Flagship of the BMT lines, it was diverted into a crummy 6th Avenue service when half the bridge was closed the first time, but with the Bridge in FULL SERVICE, it needs to go back to where it belongs!
In a PERFECT WORLD the (T) train would run Astoria to Coney Island via the Broadway Express and West End. But it does seem to be expendable if we *Have* to give the (B) train a southern terminal and you don't want *both* the (B) and the (T) or (W) : (
You see the (B) is a "part-time" train, and cannot be given a "full-time" service such as the West End Line, at least not according to me, yet I still wanted to run that train to Brooklyn in the day time.
Elias
>>> Nonsense! The (Q) was the Broadway Express, Flagship of the BMT lines, it was diverted into a crummy 6th Avenue service when half the bridge was closed the first time, but with the Bridge in FULL SERVICE, it needs to go back to where it belongs! <<<
Yes, the the Q needs to go back to where it belongs. I like the Q better too, heck I like the whole Broadway BMT line better and I feel it should dominate southern Brooklyn. However, during the 70's and early 80's, the Q, then called the QB, ran only during rush hours and local in Brooklyn.
>>> In a PERFECT WORLD the (T) train would run Astoria to Coney Island via the Broadway Express and West End. But it does seem to be expendable if we *Have* to give the (B) train a southern terminal and you don't want *both* the (B) and the (T) or (W) : ( <<<
That is exactly what should be done. You make a valid point about the B, it is a part-time service. It is not needed on weekends. It only ran on weekends in the past to serve the 57th St/6th Ave station and the extention to 21st/Queensbridge when the Q wasn't running. But now that the F runs through the 63rd St tunnel full-time, the B isn't needed on weekends. I don't think ridership on the Central Park West local warrants two services on weekends.
The W, by contrast, will become a full-time service in September. Express weekdays, local all other times. The best thing to do in 2004 would be to leave the W as a full-time service and to run the B weekdays only, terminating at Bay Pkwy. West End line riders will still have express service over the Bridge weekdays as they do now, and maybe Broadway could have decent weekend service with the N, R and W running there. Broadway needs three services on weekends more than 6th Avenue does and it would minmize the number of changes that will come in 2004.
Prior to construction, it was the express, and the Q was a crappy peak direction local.
Nonsense! The (Q) was the Broadway Express, Flagship of the BMT lines, it was diverted into a crummy 6th Avenue service when half the bridge was closed the first time, but with the Bridge in FULL SERVICE, it needs to go back to where it belongs!
Wrong-o chief. I have a map of 1985 service (which was just before the 6th av side was shut down and the Yellow B/D trains went into effect). The D was an express, the M was a local and the Q was a peak direction. In fact, after the Chrystie St. connection, Q trains became increasingly unimportant, with the D providing express service and some Nassau St. train providing the bulk of Local service. (Be it the M or the QJ or whatever.) The Q as we know it today was reduced to Peak direction runs as the QB train on the local track. With the M on West End, you can bet that the Q won't be that sad again, but it doesn't necessarily need to be the express, especially if D trains on 6th av see more service.
The (Q) is a daytimer and threfore should be the Express to Brighton Beach. There is no point in ditzing about with the (D) routing every few hours!
That's ridiculous. That's like saying the C train should run express instead of the A. "Ditzing about with the routing every 'few' hours" should never be a reason to not consider a potential routing. D trains would run express Weekdays from 6:30am to 10pm, and then run local nights and weekends. No different than the A was just recently.
The Q (QB from 1967 to 1985) was a peak direction Brighton Local-Broadway express which ran every 8-10 minutes for about an hour each rush hour. The pre-Chrystie Q was identical to today's diamond Q, and the pre-Chrystie QB was identical to today's circle Q, but only running during evenings and weekends.
"Wrong-o chief. I have a map of 1985 service (which was just before the 6th av side was shut down and the Yellow B/D trains went into effect). The D was an express, the M was a local and the Q was a peak direction. In fact, after the Chrystie St. connection, Q trains became increasingly unimportant, with the D"
PHFTftftftftt...... Brat Kid!
Before there was a Christie Street Connection.
Before the evil IND usurped too many of the Glorious BMT LIONS
And the (D) train was a CULVER LOCAL!
The (Q) Was Boss!
Long Live the (Q)!
PHFTftftftftt...... Brat Kid!
Don't you know that I'm reading the board here?
You never mentioned pre-Chrystie service. The text to which you responded did not mention anything about pre-Chrystie service and you only talked about pre-bridge flip service.
It appears to me that you're just changing the subject because that's the only way you'll be right.
PHFTftftftftt...... Man whose age I don't know!
The FACT is, this topic comes up here every few weeks.
My OPINION is, there's no point in talking about it, since in point of FACT, NYCT's planning process for post-2004 is just beginning.
David
HEY!
Don't SPOIL our FUN with Facts!
We ain't INTERESTED in FACTS!
: ) Elias
Okay, Here we go again!
Service on the North Side Manhattan Bridge........
B Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Nights] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx.
[Nights] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops from 36 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave.
Transfer to N or R at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan.
D Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
Service on the South Side Manhattan Bridge.......
N Train: Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th Street/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island (via South Side Manhattan Bridge). Transfer to R for local service in Manhattan. On weekends nights, N makes all local stops in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
W Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All stops from 36th St to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via N).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
Service on the Montague Street Tunnel.......
**R Train: Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
** Increase R Service during Rush Hour Midday and Nights
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Middays] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to 9th Ave, Brooklyn.
[Rush Hours/Evening] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Bay Pkwy, Brooklyn.
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
R replaces N between Canal St and Dekalb Ave via tunnel when N run via bridge.
When the n is all local, it wont run via bridge, when it is express it will
How do you know that? Has a new schedule been worked out? I haven't heard of any. I want my train on the bridge and I think everyone knows it. If 2004 comes and goes and the Sea Beach is still stuck in the Montague that will really bug the hell out of me. If both sides are operating the N belongs on the bridge and another line can join the R in that disgusting meandering tunnel.
The time will come, just wait and see.
He (she?) doesn't know. N-O-T-H-I-N-G has been worked out yet. I know the guy running the computer simulations for NYCT (to determine ridership patterns), and he hasn't even started running them yet.
David
Well David, send the guy a good word from me. Tell him you have a colleague in California who would be devastated if the Sea Beach is emasculated any more. Maybe I'll throw myself at the mercy of the TA court.
[Tell him you have a colleague in California who would be devastated if the Sea Beach is emasculated any more. Maybe I'll throw myself at the mercy of the TA court.]
Umm... Sorry, my fellow rail fan, but computer modeling of service options doesn't (and, IMHO, shouldn't) include allowances for nostalgia, distant history, divine right, or even California. The Sea Beach simulations should take into account only the CURRENT travel patterns of CURRENT Sea Beach riders; ditto for Fourth Avenue, West End, and Brighton. Wherever the people want to go is where the trains should take them - even if that's through the Montague Tunnel!
It's unrealistic to assume that both ridership patterns and the riders themselves can possibly remain fixed across years and decades. People move in, move out, grow up, grow old, find jobs, retire, and die. The needs of today's riders should have priority over memories of yesteryear.
Say if N runs local in 2004, Does that mean there will be no train service on the southside manny entirely?
"Say if N runs local in 2004, Does that mean there will be no train service on the southside manny entirely?"
Certainly NOT!
The (Q) and the (W) will run there.
The (D) 6th Ave (North Side) will replace the circle Q and the (Q) will replace the diamond Q
The (W) will be the Full time -West End Service and the (B) will be the daytime/rush hour service.
BECAUSE I SAID SO, THAT'S WHY!
Wait a min Elias!
IF W operates full time and B operates rush hour/part time (as current M Service) in West End. Then whats gonna happen to M? The M will end up in where? Are u suggesting that it will operate via Sea Beach line or Bay Ridge?
I think he's suggesting that the M train does not go to the Southern Division at all. There are (at least) three other places it could be turned - Broad St, Chambers St, Myrtle/Broadway. Actually, with it being Elias, I won't be surprised if this is another attempt to tear down the Myrtle Av El and put it in a Subway.
Actually, with it being Elias, I won't be surprised if this is another attempt to tear down the Myrtle Av El and put it in a Subway.
The Myrtle Avenue el has already been torn down : (
all I want to do is to *finally* replace it with a Subway, which incidently will make all but the last stop of the present Metropolitan Avenue Spur obsolete.
However...I was not necessairily removing the (M) from the Southern Lines. The (B) would be the express routing on the West End, and the (M) could terminate at 9th Avenue, perhaps even on a refurbished Lower Level, to keep it out of the (W) (B) parade. Or it may go to 95th Street to augment the (R) service if 95th St has the extra turning capacity.
Elias
The Myrtle Avenue el has already been torn down : (
Only South of Broadway. Yes, Broadway - Wyckoff is a bit of a stub for such a great line, but it's still there.
which incidently will make all but the last stop of the present Metropolitan Avenue Spur obsolete.
Are you saying you'd have a Wyckoff-Metropolitan Shuttle or something?
"Are you saying you'd have a Wyckoff-Metropolitan Shuttle or something? "
No, Actually, that would be picked up by the new 9th Avenue Subway running on Metropolitan Avenue! :)
(As you can see, I am two or three fantasies ahead of the ta!) : )
Elias
What would the rest of your Ninth Avenue Subway do?
(As you can see, I am two or three fantasies ahead of the ta!)
Aren't all subtalkers with an imagination like that?
Ah, yes, will I don't have that map posted yet, to I.
Well it starts at the Queens Line and follows Union Turnpike to Metropolitan Avenue, and then Metropolitan Avenue to the East Channel and then on to Houston Street. It co-habitates with the IND at the Second Avenue Station, but uses the tracks that the IND does not use, and so there is no switching issue there. Immedietly west of the Second Avenue Station it bends north and follows bleeker Street to Ninth Avenue.
There is a line that branches to the south along Westside Drive makes WTC, and then a new Terminal at South Ferry.
The Uptown segment follows Ninth Avenue ducking to the east of Morningside Park with the Local terminating at 125th Street and the Hudson River, and the Express bending east along 135th Street, joining the Fifth Avenue line for a fast Express run along side of the Concourse line, and then making stops along Burke Avenue to CoOp City.
Elias
If anything, the B may be restored and the W terminated till they can find more of a use for it. If anyone needs/wants express service from West End/4th up Broadway, they can just transfer at DeKalb
If anything, the B may be restored and the W terminated
The (B) cannot be 'restored' because it was an interloper in the first place. Besides, it is a PART TIME route as it is.
I put the (D) on the Brighton inspite of my love of the (Q) because the (D) is a full time service, and the (Q) need not be.
On the ohter hand the (B) *is* a part time service, so it becomes the West End Express, and the (W) becomes the Full Time Broadway Express. There needs to be a full time express service on Broadway, and it *does* have to go *somewhere*!
The West End needs more Service than the Sea Beach.
Hey, it's just basic Subway Routing 101!
Elias
The (D) is a full time service, so its restored, Brighton Local/6th Ave express
The (Q) Brighton Express/ Broadway Express (parttime till 9:30pm as is currently)
The Brighton Line is set up pretty well (if u just look at the route)
Your right about the B and a Broadway Express is useful and needed, but what happens to Grand Street?
Granted the West End carrys more than the Sea Beach, but does it really need express service now? or 2 trains running it?
Granted the West End carrys more than the Sea Beach, but does it really need express service now? or 2 trains running it?
No, actually, it does not. But both Broadway and Sixth Avenue need to have a southern terminal for their trains.
(B) is a 6th Avenue train, local in the Bronx to 59th Street, and Express on 6th Avenue and on the West End. There really is no place else to send it. It cannot cross over onto the Culver without switching in front of (F) and (V) trains somewhere.
(W) is the Full Time 24/7 Broadway Express. And this too has to go somewhere. Astoria - Broadway - West End 24/7. The (Q) is part-time service, and the (N) can supplemnet (W) service in the day time, but (Sea Beach Fred not withstanding) doesn't *Need* to be an Express *IF* more service is needed in the SoCanal area.
So, as far as 6th Ave/Bway to South BMT:
A Fulltime and a Part-time Exp Service on both 6th and Broadway, and a Fulltime and a Part-time Service on both Brighton and West End.
The Frequencies of the (B) and the (W) are adjusted according to the needs of West End and of Bdford Park, and the (N) provides additional service to Astoria making up for any shortage of tph on the (W) caused by its cohabitating with the (B).
Elias
Interestingly enough, you keep speaking about what things NEED and DON'T NEED. To be honest, Broadway DOESN'T NEED 4 services into brooklyn after 6th av opens up. Hence, they WON'T NEED the W train as more than a token local from Astoria to Whitehall. The West End WILL NEVER NEED 3 trains turning on it, or a peak direction express service.
You keep saying that the "B" is the part-time route, but you're just a wee bit wrong. Last time that the B ran into brooklyn, it gave riders service all the way to 21st/Queensbridge, later 168th st. Look at the W's sorry routing. Terminating at Pacific (which the N couldn't do if the W ran to manhattan. The N would have to turn at 36th or Pacific on the Express tracks, and that would make the W run via tunnel.) Talk about part-time.
6th avenue was more serviced than Broadway last time both sides of the bridge were open. That's because it needs more service. Sorry if the TA bases their routing on logic rather than nostalgia or sentimental feelings for crappy BMT lines.
2 express for 6th Ave, 2 for Broadway; again I agree
My thing is just the excess, but again, the lines have to end somewhere
If anything they should bring the Culver Shuttle back, but continue it across Church Avenue to the L; God knows they could use a line; B35-Church Avenue is one of the worst, traffic and crowd wise (not feasible right now I know :)
Where on the L line would Culver go?
Was just a side joke/thought, but now u got me thinking
Well, 2 choices:
Go straight to New Lots Ave (make a tranfer between the L & 3 (Junius Ave) lines
Turn southeast down Remsen, left on Glenwood and right into the L Rockaway Terminal
2 express for 6th Ave, 2 for Broadway; again I agree
My thing is just the excess, but again, the lines have to end somewhere
Not excessive:
N/Q broadway expresses
B/D 6th av expresses.
The thing is, the lines should have a total of 6 lines into brooklyn (each line has a local into bk, and the M also runs there for Nassau St.)
During the day it wouldnt be, but wondering what the Q and W service st night will be, just turn around at Pacific Street?
Only thing about Pacific Street-Atlantic Avenue is that staircase now (under nothbound 1/2 to the rest of the station) bigger yes, but just visually a deterrant
Didnt see the plans for that station, maybe they will build a ramp alternative, escalator or something
Question: Does anyone know what will, or happened already to that mosaic in the transfer corridor before you get to the Q line?
Again, there will probably be no "W" train. The N will probably run nights from 4th av, the D from brighton. Q no service and B terminates at 36th.
(B) is part-time at present because 6th Av is cut off from the bridge and TPTB don't see any benefit in running 2 essentially duplicate Concourse/CPW/6 Av services nights/weekends. Since 1968 and prior to the bridge closings/reroutes, it was full-time, either to 57/6 or CPW/Wash Hts/Concourse. My guess is that when the bridge reopens to 6th Av, the B resume its former full-time West End route, N will be Broadway express, and the W will become Astoria/Bway/Whitehall weekday local service. M will continue as it is now to provide Nassau St connectivity on weekdays.
Since 1968 and prior to the bridge closings/reroutes, it was full-time, either to 57/6 or CPW/Wash Hts/Concourse. My guess is that when the bridge reopens to 6th Av, the B resume its former full-time West End route
This it cannot do. 57/6 cannot serve as a terminal anymore, it is a through station for both the (F) and the (V).
Elias
I did NOT say anything about 57/6 being a recent terminal, nor was I suggesting it be used as one again. I was simply pointing out that B was a full-time service before the bridge closure on routings that were highly useful. It is most likely it will be returned to its full previous route when it can again access a useful southern terminal.
The B was never intented to be a cast off.It was part of the original IND[SEE THE OLD IND ROLL SIGNS].Most likely,if some of the second system routes were built,you would have seen the B train on 6th ave insted of the BB before 1967....but with A/C/D[EXPRESS]AA/CC and later BB service on the local,where was it going to go? It was meant to go to Washington hts,to a second system line.. but non existed.SO it was unuseable.
The (B) is not a cast off by any stretch of the imagination. It is an important and intergal service to the 6th Aveneue Line, but...
Its cohabitating with the (D) up north diminishes its viability/flexibility. It is not needed up there at night. Two 6th Avenue Expresses are not needed at night. We all have agreed that the (D) is the 24/7 6th Avenue Express. Ergo the (B) is the primo part-time (16/7) service on 6th Ave.
If the Brighton gets the (D) 24/7 and the (Q) 16/7 Express
then why not:
The West end gets the (W) 24/7 and the (B) 16/7 Express
To run the (B) 24/7 as you desire, it needs to 'go-somewhere-up-north'. It cannot turn at 57/6, and isn't needed on 8th or Concourse at those off hours. What then? You tell me. You (plural whoever answered some other posts) say I'm sold on the Broadway Line, but methinks that someone is also over sold on the 6th Avenue Line.
The (N) *could* be the Broadway 24/7 Express. I have no objection, and Fred would *love* it. But the West End is the No.2 South Brooklyn line, and holds the next slot, (After the Brighton) for a good 24/7 line. We already have such a line (D) on 6th, Broadway is next, is it not?
I'd like each of the South Brooklyn lines to have one full time 24/7 service that doesn't turn into a pumpkin at night. Maybe this goal is not possible. But if we need a pumpkin at night It seems to belong to the (N) line.
Think not that I am giving the West End *TWO* services, such as we are on the Brighton. We give west end some tph, and divide them between the (B) and the (W).
The (W) is not enough for Astoria so add the (N) trains to it in the day time.
To me the whole situation is about as cleay as a cow pie in July!
: ) Elias
Think not that I am giving the West End *TWO* services, such as we are on the Brighton. We give west end some tph, and divide them between the (B) and the (W).
Even if you increase to 12 tph, that divides the tph into 6 and 6, unacceptable for a manhattan trunk line.
The B might not run at nights, true. But night service doesn't see a whole lot of riders. It would be one thing if those 3tph were crowded, but they aren't. Making the N the nighttime through service is not a slight to west end riders. Your system is sillier: it has people waiting 10 minutes for their train at rush hour, or it has the line running up broadway nights only.
"BECAUSE I SAID SO, THAT'S WHY!"
There we have it: proof positive that "Elias" is none other than Lawrence G. Reuter.
David
Ai-ya! This again?! If this is a bad, bad, bad, bad case of deja vu, someone please inform me.
Wait, this IS a case of deja vu! Never mind, never mind...
*sigh* I guess as much as we can talk about it until the cows come home, all we can do is speculate. The best-case scenario is everything goes back to the way it is, V is extended into Brooklyn, and each and every South Brooklyn line gets two services (That means all 5: Brighton (D-Q), West End (B-W), Sea Beach (N-W), Culver (F-G-V) and Bay Ridge (R-M).)
-J!
Okay, how about this variant on the subject which is discussed at least fortnightly here:
For some reason, the Manhattan Bridge has to be totally taken out of service (both sides). What service pattern should be adopted in that eventuality?
If they still wanted to use DeKalb Avenue Station, the easiest would probably run everything via the M/N/R tunnel:
one line running up to Essex (to access the 6th Avenue line)
the others up the Broadway line
Any train from DeKalb Avenue that was headed for the Sixth Avenue Line via the Montague Street Tunnel would have to reverse somewhere on the Nassau Street Line or Broadway-Jamaica Line east (railroad north) of the Essex Street station. This would be nearly impossible in the rush hours, even with the current headways coming off/headed for the Williamsburg Bridge.
In the early 1980s, weekday midday Manhattan Bridge work necessitated that D trains from Sixth Avenue go via the "BJ" tracks onto the Williamsburg Bridge, reverse direction, and go via the Montague Street Tunnel to DeKalb Avenue. One time I rode it (cars 4764-4765 -- the pair that went to Colorado in the early 1970s for testing by the federal government, and for years after they returned sported their original paint scheme inside with USDOT emblems on the interior ends), we sat on the bridge for half an hour -- and this was BETWEEN rush hours!
David
Clearly the BMT lines will run via Montague.
I'd terminate (J)(M)(Z) trains n Borad Street, none of them would go to Brooklyn.
The (Q) becomes the dominant life form on the Brighton
The (W) on the Worst End
The (N) on the Sea Beach... But would terminate at Dekalb, using the bridge leads to relay.
And of course the (R) to 95th Street.
On the IND side...
(F) to Culver is no problem
(B) would run to Grand Street
(D) I would also send via the Culver. Maybe it can draw some of the traffic from the over worked (Q)s
(V) would run to Chambers Street
(A) to Lefferts
(E) to the Rockaways
(C) local to Euclid since I'd want to get extra service into Brookly no matter where it went!
Over the Longer term, I'd build a connection betwen the Rutger's tunnel and the bridge leads from DeKalb, which would get the (D) and (B) services back where they were.
Elias
You forgot extension of Brighton Local to Fulton/Franklin on 8 minute headways with "temporary" wooden platform extensions.
I believe this is {or is close to} what the ERC {East River Crossing} study had in mind: The B/D would continue to be cut at 34th running from there up to the Bronx, the N/R would run through the Montague tunnel as usual, and the N would be 4th ave local all times because the W would be the 4th Ave Exp as a Pacific to CI shuttle. The Q would be the only train on Brighton and would run 15 tph or more, through the Montague tunnel and then express on Broadway. I'm not sure, but the plan may have included N express on Broadway with a diamond N or something like that starting at Canal from the City Hall relay tracks and running up to Astoria via local with the regular one {Don't quote me on that!}
This is the official ERC plan:
TerminallineBrooklyn
route Brooklyn
Stop patternTPHCrossing Manhattan
routeManhattan
Stop PatternCrossingRouteTerminalConey Island
B
West End
4th Ave. express 9 Pacific St. 34th Street
D
10 6th Ave.
express CPW/Concourse 205th St
Coney Island F Culver Local*14
Rutgers 6th Ave local 63rd St Queens Blvd 179th St. Coney Island FV Culver local* 14 Rutgers 6th Ave. Local 53rd St. Queens Blvd 71st StChambers St. M
7 Nassau local
Williamsburg
Bridge Myrtle Ave. Metropolitan
Coney Island N Sea Beach,
4th Ave. local
8 Montague
St Tunnel Broadway local 60th St Astoria Ditmars BlvdConey IslandQBrightonlocal*12
Montague
St. TunnelBroadwayExpress 57th St. Brighton Beach QS Brighton local* 7 Franklin Ave
95th St. R 4th Ave. Local 8 Montague
St. Tunnel Broadway Local 60th St.
Tunnel Queens Blvd. 71st St.
Grand St. S 6 Shuttle Bway-Lafayette
Euclid Ave. A Fulton Local 12(TSM-C); 10 Cranberry
St. Tunnel 8th Ave. Express Wash.
Heights 207th St.
WTC C 8 8th Ave. Local CPW Bedford Park
[168th]
Rockaway/
Lefferts E Fulton Express 18(TSM-C); 20 Cranberry
St. Tunnel 8th Ave. Express 53rd St.
Tunnel Queens Blvd. Jamaica
*Notice, F and "FV" service on full length of Culver, but no express service.
Also, Franklin Shuttle extended to Brighton Beach, but also no express service. This plan counted on the Franklin shuttle being rebuilt to full two track, 600 ft. station capacity. The rebuilding of the shuttle was apart of the ERC plan, but became a "no build" option, as it was already proceeding under another project. Of course, that project called for single tracking for half of the line, and 170 foot stations. So as it is now, only 2 car trains at even fewer tph could run. But it seems provisions were left on the line for extension, so the other trackway could be put in with only modest construction, rather than rebuilding the whole line again, and a concrete room would have to be demolished to extend the northbound Botanic Gardens platform.
The purpose of the ACE swap was to bring the higher capacity A service to the Franklin Av. station transfer for Brighton riders displaced by bridge closure.
If Stillwell rebuilding was not finished, the N would cut back at Pacific and the W go throught to Astoria as they will off hours this fall, of course.
Also a highlight of this plan is the extensive supplemental bus service over the Manhattan Bridge ond Battery Tunnel. (Original plans called for Brooklyn Bridge, but they couldn't get over the weight restrictions on that bridge, so then they proposed Bus/HOV only lanes on the Manhattan Bridge
The B-45 (8 peak hour trips both ways) and B-67 (5 trips) would be extended from their present routes on Livingston St. over the Manhattan Bridge to a "Downtown Loop" (probably the present route of the B-51, which would be eliminated) to City Hall.
A new "B-99" from both Atlantic Terminal and Empire Blvd via Flatbush Ave. (12 peak hour trips both ways each) would also run over the bridge to City Hall.
the B-71 would be extended from Union St. through the Battery Tunnel and West or Church streets to "Lower Manhattan"
A new bus storage facility of about 19,440 feet would be required. Two potential locations were identified: a large block of cleared property between Delancey and Broome Sts. in the Seward Park Urban Renewal Area Extension (owned by the city), and two plots beneath the ramps of the Williamsburg Bridge, on opposite sides of Columbia Street.
I had that exact chart and lost it.
Also a highlight of this plan is the extensive supplemental bus service over the Manhattan Bridge
Wrong!
The Bridge is CLOSED remember! It Fell into the East River and floated out to sea with the Redbirds!
Suspension bridge decks are not designed to be buoyant. If the bridge collapses, it sinks to the bottom.
In fact, when the Golden Gate Bridge was being built, people were concerned of any enemy bomb hitting the bridge and blocking the Golden Gate. The engineers successfully deflected such arguments by showing that the deck, if severed, would sink to the bottom.
I don't know if that's supposed to be 50% or 100% a joke, but the bridge "closing" assumes it is only to rail. (vehicular traffic is rarely affected, as it is not as heavy). They did ban the buses briefly during 1988, and if it was completely closed, maybe then they'd try to waive the Brooklyn Bridge restriction, perhaps consider getting lighter vehicles (and I wonder if the low floors are lighter), or just send them all through the Battery.
I'd venture a guess of:
Oh, piffle. It looks like you can't just drop in pretty table HTML.
Anyway, what I was trying to say:
M - Met/Chambers.
N - 57-7/86 St (or CI if it's back) Bway/Sea Beach. Local 6AM-10PM Mon-Fri. Other times, shuttle from Pacific.
Q - Continental/Brighton Beach (or CI). QB/Bway/Brighton local. All times.
< Q > - 57-7/Brighton Beach. Bway/Brighton express. 6AM-10PM Mon-Fri.
R - 36 St/95 St. Shuttle. All times.
W - Ditmars/Coney Island Bway/4 Av exp 6AM-10PM Mon-Fri. Local other times.
You can't fit the N, the two Qs, and the W all through the tunnel, only 3 trains can fit. You can only send one train from Brighton and two from 4th.
Reducing either Brighton or the 4th Av corridor to only a single through line to Manhattan would create absolute chaos. Both sides need to have 2 through lines, at the very least during peak times. The only other obvious alternatives would be to run shuttle buses from Brighton to the Culver, and/or run "reverse NX-like" service "southbound" on the West End and Sea Beach that would switch to the northbound Culver at Stillwell.
If that were to happen, then all four routes {the two from Brighton and the two from 4th} would operate at very low frequency.
Yes, you are right, only Three Lines through the Montague.
So think of this:
(Q) 179th Street to Coney Island via Brighton (63rd St Tnl)
(QX) DeKalb Avenue (relay on Bridge Leads) Brighton Exp to Brighton Beach
(QS) Franklin Avenue to Brighton Beach via Express
(R) Continetial to 95th St. via 4th Avenue (60th St. Tunnel)
(W) Astoria to to Coney Island via Sea Beach (60th Street Tunnel)
(N) DeKalb Avenue (relay on Bridge Leads) to Coney Island via Sea Beach
(F) 179th Street to Coney Island via Culver (63rd Street)
(V) Continental Avenue to Chambers Street (53rd Street)
(B) Bedford Park to Second Avenue
(D) 205th Street to Kings Highway via Culver
(E) Jamaica Center to Rockaways via Fulton
(A) 207th Street to Lefferts via Fulton
(C) 168th Street to Euclid Avenue
Sending the (E) via Fulton Street will max out Cranbery, but we need to get as much as possible between Brooklyn and Manhattan.
Pressing the Franklin Shuttle into Express service will be able to move some passengers from Fulton street onto the Brighton.
Elias
Why do you send both the Q and R trains thru the tunnel, and then send them to Queens Blvd.? That's completely unnesecary. And suddenly, you have 3 trains running on Brighton? What's the point of that? And sending the A/C/E trains ALL through Cranberry would be sickening delays, and that line doesn't even serve areas in South Brooklyn. If anything, you should promote more people using the Brooklyn IRT to Atlantic avenue. Finally, you have the B/D/F/V trains all stopping on the W4th Local platform.
Here's What I'd do:
VIA TUNNEL
(Q)-Brighton Beach to 57th/7thav. Via Brighton/Broadway express. Montague tunnel. Weekends via Brighton local. Nights via local to 57th/7th av.
(N)-Coney Island to Ditmas Av. Via 4th av/Broadway local.
(W)-Coney Island to Continental, Via 4th av express/Broadway Local. Nights to 36th St.
"STRANDED SERVICES"
(S)-Franklin Av. to Botanic Garden. Terminates on Northbound platform only.
(QB)-temporary platform used to extend southbound Botanic Garden platform to accomodate 8 car 60' trains. QB trains terminate at this platform. Via brighton Local to Coney Island.
(R)-95 st Bay Ridge to 59th st. All times.
(M)-to Chambers st only
OTHER SERVICE CHANGES
(F)- express from Bergen to Kings hwy.Weekdays (peak direction express between Church and Kings Hwy. Skips Ditmas. Re-installation of switch north of Kings Hwy.) 2 out of 12 tph terminate at 2nd av.
(V)-To Kings Hwy. via local. 2 out of 10tph terminate at 2nd av. No service weekends, nights.
(G)-To Church av. Nights/ Weekends to Smith 9th sts.
(B)-To 34th st Herald Sq. Weekdays.
(D)-To 34th st Herald Sq. All times.
The circumstances leading to a complete subway cutoff from the Manny B would most likely come about suddenly or with little advance notice. This would put NYCT in the position (as it often is) of having to implement whatever service changes it could as quickly as possible with the existing infrastructure.
If the closure were to be of a long duration (or even "permanent"), then they would have to implement such things as platform extensions on the Franklin, putting in or restoring switches, and maybe creating new routing capabilities (such as the DeKalb/Rutgers connection). However, knowing How Things Really Work, proactive projects would either crawl along at a snail's pace or never see the light of day at all because of the bureaucracy, politics and NIMBYism. So, whatever routings were created would undoubtedly remain in effect for quite some time. And, were a closure to be only temporary, they'd most likely opt for just reroutes and quickly forget about doing anything for the future.
Well, the temporary platform extension at Botanical Gardens and the re-installment of the switch at Kings Hwy. are the only suggestions that I have, and those aren't anything that NIMBY's could oppose. Both of those elements were in place in the past, "upgrading" removed them.
Still, in the event of an emergency, those two improvemnts would take a very short time to add, so in the meantime, V trains could terminate at Chruch with the G while F trains continue to run local, and The Brighton local could empty out at Prospect Park, and reverse on the southbound shuttle track, while shuttle trains would continue to use only the northbound track, and would have to get in and out of prospect in a hurry. (Note, the southbound platform would be unused, allowing for work to be done on the platform.)
The point of my plan is the following:
1. 6th av riders can use the F or V to get to stops near ANY other south brooklyn line, especially with free bus transfers.
2. Brighton/Sea Beach/West End still get through service to Manhattan.
3. By sending the Brighton Local to Botanic Gardens, it keeps a transfer to the 2,3,4,5, which can be used by passengers in manhattan as well. (The 2,3 especially, since it's so close to both 6th av and Broadway.)
According to the ridership stats that have been posted here as part of the never-ending debates about the Sea Beach (stay calm, Fred, I'm not dissing it), Brighton simply could not be combined into a single route into Manhattan, even if most or all of the people living between Culver and Brighton went to the Culver instead. While condensing the combined 4th Av lines into just one Manhattan routing isn't pretty either, there is just that much more flexibility on that side because of the F/Culver. Diverting some riders to a Sea Beach/Culver alternative instead of into 4th Av would (with luck) keep things moving with a reduced amount of frayed nerves.
Brighton simply could not be combined into a single route into Manhattan, even if most or all of the people living between Culver and Brighton went to the Culver instead.
I beg to differ. First of all, many people use the Brighton solely because it's express and the Culver is all local. Second, How the TA promotes this has a lot to do with it. They can encourage people that use the bus to access Brighton to ride just a few more stops for an F express into manhattan. That would help a lot. Also, the Tie in at Botanic Gardens to the Bk. IRT allows Brighton riders to get to manhattan without even going thru Montague. Finally, if riders spend enough mornings crowded into those Q trains, They'll start riding the F train instead of being unable to get on the Q.
While condensing the combined 4th Av lines into just one Manhattan routing isn't pretty either, there is just that much more flexibility on that side because of the F/Culver.
Something that you're forgetting is that 4th av includes ridership or West End, Sea Beach and 4th avenue local ridership. That was divided into 4 lines(B/W,M,N,R), but now you have an extremely limited choice. Everyone here concurrs that the M is gone. Local service suffers. And then, you have to drop at least one more service. Dropping two services forces nearly all of the Sea Beach, West End and 4th avenue riders to either cram into the W train (still running on those 8tph headways, right?) or to take your long roundabout way along the culver line. And, I'm betting that to get a seat and a quick ride into manhattan, those on the Sea Beach get the W at 62nd. Thus, the West End "W" train would probably have almost as many riders as the Brighton line does with the combined trains. You have to make a sacrafice somewhere, and you're plan asks 4th av line riders to bow before the Brighton Line constituents totally.
In an emergency routing, everyone has to make sacrafices. Why should the brighton get special priviledges?
I was dating someone in Sheepshead Bay back in the late 1970s. Every now and then I would stay over on a weeknight and catch the train at Neck Rd to Manhattan in the morning. It was already crowded, and by Church Av, you could barely breathe. So much for the theory the local would be less crowded. The expresses were bursting at the seams. At Atlantic you could just about forget the notion of being able to breathe again until midtown -- throngs of people transferring from the IRT and the LIRR made the crowding even worse. It was every bit as bad, if not worse, than Queens Blvd crowding. From what I've read and heard, I doubt this has changed much since then.
I lived in Bensonhurst for a while around '86-87, right after the north side of the bridge closed and when the tracks on 4th Av were all skeletons with 5mph all the way from DeKalb to 36 St. The trains were very full, but nowhere as packed solid as on the Brighton. It didn't matter if I were on an N, B or R, the crowds thinned out considerably at DeKalb and Pacific, most changing for Brighton or LIRR. By 36 Street, the trains were probably 50% full. The B was maybe 25% full by the time it turned onto 86th Street. At 25th Av, where I got off, maybe a dozen or so people remained on the train when it left. Going to Manhattan in the mornings, the trains were reasonably loaded until about 36th, became significantly crowded at 9th, then unbearable from Pacific on.
I finally experimented some and found that taking the B to Stillwell and changing to the F into Manhattan seldom took more than a few minutes longer than suffering through the crawl and extended dwell times along 4th Av and the long, slow march over the bridge, and faster than the express bus from where I was on Cropsey & Bay 37 to Wall St and then having to take the subway uptown. The trains were relatively crowded from Kings Highway on, but not as horrible as either Brighton or 4th Av.
So, based on my own experiences (granted, 15-20 years ago now), Brighton can't afford any loss of through service to Manhattan. As inconvenient as it might be, reducing the 4th Av to a single through-route might not be as painful a prospect when compared to the greater good. Even getting only one or two thousand riders off the "south end" of Sea Beach and West End onto the Culver could result in noticeable relief on 4th Av. The only folks who really wouldn't benefit much are those down in Bay Ridge or who need a financial district destination.
About the time of your observations, D trains to 6th av were the expresses, while the M nassau st local was the Brighton Local. The M is not the Q local.
I have observed Rush hour loads on the Q train, and I think that the Q could indeed get away with one thru line. No one said that this train had to keep the same amount of headways as the present trains. I wouldn't be opposed to making the brighton express something to the effect of 12-14tph and reducing the headways of one of the 4th avenue trains to 6-7tph. Plus, my plan is hopeful that crowding on the brighton will:
1. Become somewhat reduced by getting some riders to go to the Culver line, which now has an express service.
2. Some Brighton riders will take the Q local to Botanical gardens and transfer to the Brooklyn IRT.
I'm confident that those changes will occur. I think that because after the TA promoted the A/C/E to 1/2/3 riders, the A became more crowded (I ride the A everyday, and the TA musta thought so too, because they increased A service)
I'm not trying to say that every Brighton rider could fit onto one service. I'm saying that the Brighton riders have more options that can be exrecised to make everyone's commute a little easier.
P.S.-It's been awhile since I've had an engaging debate like this on subtalk. Thanks!
It seems to me that the amount of Brighton vs. 4th Av. trains, say based on a maximum 30 tph through the Montague St. tunnel, would have to be balanced according to collected AM rush hour fares on all of the lines as of today. My guess is that it is somewhere around 13 (Brighton) vs. 17 (4th Av.). Probably sub-talker David has the exact statistics. But the Brighton could be made to suffer less by Manhattan Bridge closure, as you pointed out, by reinstating the Franklin Av. spur to full capacity and running the Brighton local through it. I believe that "temporary" platform extensions could be put in on all stations of the Franklin Av. spur, but unless double-tracked anew, it would restrict train numbers to about 7 full-length trains per hour. What's nice about your plan is the turning around north of Botanic Gardens, which would allow immediate increase in number of tph.
If anything again I just question the abilty for the 8th Avenue, Lexington, and Bway/7th Ave lines could handle this extra weight during rush hours, especially the 8th Ave @ Hoyt-Schermerhorn
I suspect that the Lex and 7th Av. lines would, as a result, increase from crowded to crush-load. As far as I have read here on SubTalk, the C trains are not especially crowded, but some As would have to become Cs to increase tph at Fulton/Franklin to make this option attractive.
It would probably be more like Brighton vs. (Fourth Avenue PLUS Sea Beach PLUS West End). This would be (2000 statistics, average weekday):
Brighton (Ocean Parkway through Seventh Avenue, except Prospect Park):
112,871
Fourth Avenue (95th Street through Union Street, except 9th Street):
66,820
Sea Beach (86th Street through 8th Avenue, except New Utrecht Avenue):
25,601
West End (Bay 50th Street through 9th Avenue, except 62nd Street):
43,996
New Utrecht Avenue (Sea Beach PLUS West End): 3,879
TOTAL: 140,296
GRAND TOTAL: 253,137
Breakdown:
Brighton: 44.6%
Fourth Avenue, etc.: 55.4%
The service breakdown would have to be something like 14 Brighton to 16 Fourth Avenue (etc.) unless people with access to other lines could be persuaded to take them (assuming, of course, there were physical space for those people and the extra trains needed to carry them on those lines). In practice, assuming 30 trains could be operated through the tunnel (not saying they couldn't, but they aren't now), the ratio would probably end up being 15/15. As for the breakdown of Fourth Avenue vs. West End/Fourth Avenue vs. Sea Beach/Fourth Avenue service, the balance would seem to lead heavily toward the main service being the West End (while the total for Fourth Avenue is 66,820, only 23,924 of those riders board at stations between 95th Street and Bay Ridge Avenue, the ones where only one service is available).
If I could only run 15 trains along Fourth Avenue, I'd probably split them 8 West End, 4 Sea Beach, and 3 Fourth Avenue, or have the Fourth Avenue stub be a shuttle as far as 59th Street (a 20-minute headway between 95th Street and 59th Street probably wouldn't fly politically, even under a "doomsday" scenario such as this one).
David
Those numbers would indicate something more like a 17 Fourth Avenue to 13 Brighton split.
From Fourth Avenue, 4 tph theoretically should be Bay Ridge, 5 tph Sea Beach and 8 tph West End. You are probably right that Bay Ridge would prefer a shuttle (It looks like 8 tph should theoretically be possible with the tracks as is, so 6 tph should be scheduled), leaving an 11 West End to 6 Sea Beach split.
On the Brighton Line, currently a maximum of 16 tph run (8 local, 8 express). With 8 Car Trains, this is 64 cars per hour local, 64 cars per hour express. What I would suggest would be making all 13 tph local (104 cars per hour), leaving a deficit of 24 cars per hour to be filled in. The Franklin S uses 2 car trains, so if the 24 cars per hour were to be sent there, 12 tph would be needed. (I'd suggest running these from Brighton Beach, immediately merging with the local.) 12 tph CANNOT be turned at Fulton Street. What I would suggest would be using TPTO on these trains, running not at the 5 minute intervals suggested by the 12tph figure, but at 2 minute followed by 8 minute intervals. This would in effect leave six pairs of trains. The first in each pair would go to Fulton Street; the second would terminate at Park Place. This way, there should be sufficient capacity for 12tph to Park Place, with 6tph continuing to Fulton Street.
The issue then becomes what to do with the 24 car-loads of people landed on the Franklin Shuttle. Let me first state some assumptions:
Of the 12 car loads of people going to Fulton / Franklin, 6 will get off at Botanic Garden, 6 at Fulton St.
Of the 12 car loads terminating at Park Pl, all will get off at Botanic Garden.
All riders will want to transfer to a Subway to Manhattan.
Of the 18 car loads of people at Botanic Garden, 12 will want the 4/5 Trains, 6 will want the 1/2 Trains.
Of the 6 car loads of people at Fulton / Franklin, all of them will want the A Train.
An IRT Car (51x9=459) can only hold 61% as much as a BMT Car (75x10=750).
THEREFORE
There are nearly 20 car loads of people wanting the 4/5 Trains.
There are nearly 10 car loads of people wanting the 1/2 Trains.
There are 6 car loads of people wanting the A Train.
This can be fairly easily catered for (as the number of people who can fit on the Franklin Shuttle stops there being too many people to cater for at any transfer point).
The 4 and 5 Trains never run more than 24 tph. The 5 Train doesn't even reach Brooklyn most of the time. An increase of +2 tph would absorb the load from the Franklin Shuttle, bringing this to 26tph.
The 1 and 2 Trains never run more than 25 tph. An increase of +1 tph would absorb the load from the Franklin Shuttle, bringing this to 26 tph.
The A Train has a bottleneck with the C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, limiting it to 24 tph at Rush Hours. It currently runs only 15 tph. An increase of +1 tph would more than absorb the load from the Franklin Shuttle, bringing this to 16 tph.
So in short, in light of those numbers, this seems the best idea to me:
N ?(Astoria)? - Broadway Local - Sea Beach Local - Coney Island [up to 6tph]
Q ?(Continental)? - Broadway Local - Brighton Local - Coney Island [up to 13tph]
R 59th St - 95th St Shuttle [up to 6tph]
S Fulton / Franklin - Brighton Local* - Brighton Beach [up to 6tph]
S Park Place - Brighton Local* - Brighton Beach [up to 6tph]
W ?(Astoria)? - Broadway Local - West End Local - Coney Island [up to 11tph]
* Express if no Brighton Express would cause WWIII
Any comments? Particularly I'm unsure about the Northern Terminals.
The ridership split was 44.6% (Brighton) vs. 55.4% (Fourth Avenue and its tributaries). 13 trains vs. 17 is 43.3% vs. 56.7%, while 14 trains vs. 16 is 46.7% vs. 53.3%. Perhaps my Brighton bias got in the way (I must admit that I ride the line), but really either would work. Currently, there are 17 Manhattan-bound Brighton trains (express + local combined) leaving Prospect Park between 7:30 and 8:30 AM and between 8 and 9 AM.
By the way, if all people headed for Franklin/Fulton from Brighton via the Franklin Avenue Shuttle want the A train, they're all going to be disappointed -- during rush hours, and for most of the day 7 days a week, only the C runs there. Also, only 10-car trains run on all of the IRT lines running through Franklin/Eastern Parkway, and the train length of the BMT/IND trains is overestimated by a factor of 25% (750 feet vs. the actual 600).
Two-car trains on the Brighton Line would not work (I don't care what kind of emergency situation we're talking about here). In addition, what's the sense of turning trains at Park Place when Franklin Avenue is one stop away?
There should be room for some additional IRT service (assuming cars and crews are available -- the cars could be garnered by stopping Redbird retirements, assuming this Manhattan Bridge closure happened while there were still Redbirds on the property). However, Rogers Junction (where the Eastern Parkway and Nostrand Avenue services merge/diverge) is a constraining factor under the current service plan. As Steve Bauman has pointed out, if all Lexington Avenue trains continued along Eastern Parkway and all Seventh Avenue trains operated along Nostrand Avenue (or even vice versa), more service could be operated -- but that's not the way it works now, and it would be a helluva political fight to get that changed, emergency or not.
David
Perhaps my Brighton bias got in the way
Yes, well 14/16 or 13/17 would be fair - 15/15 probably wouldn't - my favouring a 13/17 rests upon not wanting to give the stretch of 4th Av South of 36th St fewer than 6 tph - an average 5 minute wait is really the longest you can ask people to put up with - even then it's not fun. The Brighton Line of course has the capability of running Brighton - Franklin.
By the way, if all people headed for Franklin/Fulton from Brighton via the Franklin Avenue Shuttle want the A train, they're all going to be disappointed -- during rush hours, and for most of the day 7 days a week, only the C runs there.
Trust you to notice my obvious mistake muddling up Franklin and Nostrand. The point I was making is however still valid - there is capacity for an extra 9 tph on the C train (I'm only proposing +1 or maybe 2 tph), the bottleneck coming on the 8th Av Local with the E Train at 15 tph.
By the way, if all people headed for Franklin/Fulton from Brighton via the Franklin Avenue Shuttle want the A train, they're all going to be disappointed -- during rush hours, and for most of the day 7 days a week, only the C runs there. Also, only 10-car trains run on all of the IRT lines running through Franklin/Eastern Parkway, and the train length of the BMT/IND trains is overestimated by a factor of 25% (750 feet vs. the actual 600).
Maybe I should have explained what I was doing a little better. I was talking in terms of cars. An IRT car is 51' by 9' hence 51x9. A BMT car is 75' by 10', hence 75x10. The loads required by the calculations are: just under 20 cars per hour on the 4/5 (just under 2 tph), just under 10 cars (1 tph) on the 1/2, and 6 cars of 75' - or 7½ cars of 60' (1 tph) on the C. The 9 and 10 in the calculations were widths not lengths. I am assuming, of course, that the vertical dimension has no effect ;-)
Two-car trains on the Brighton Line would not work (I don't care what kind of emergency situation we're talking about here)
They would provide exactly the same number of cars as before - in fact, the majority of trains would be ten cars. The average wait for a ten car train would be slightly under 4 minutes and 37 seconds - an improvement for local stops where the current average is about 7 minutes 30 seconds. Of course in this "emergency" scheme, the wait would vary from 2 to 7 minutes, but the longest wait would still be lower than the previous average wait at local stops. This would more than make up for the fact that 18.75% of the service was provided by 2 car trains. A lot of people wouldn't get on the 2 car trains anyway - they wouldn't give a one seat ride to Manhattan.
In addition, what's the sense of turning trains at Park Place when Franklin Avenue is one stop away?
The line goes down to single track just before Park Place station. Park Place to Fulton Street takes 3 minutes by the timetable, which even with a fast TPTO turnaround of 1 minute would still take 7 minutes until another train could use the whole section to Fulton Street. This limits the Fulton / Franklin Terminal to 8½ tph MAXIMUM. A way of circumventing this problem is to run one train in to Fulton / Franklin, run the following train into Park Place (also on the single track section) whilst the first train is on its 7 minute single track journey. Terminate the second train at Park Place and send it back out towards Brighton Beach, whilst the first train leaves Fulton / Franklin. (Yes, this does sound extremely like the sort of operation a Trolley company would come up with). This in effect doubles the terminal capacity of the single track section to 17 tph. To make up a capacity shortage off the Brighton Line, I want to run 12 tph. With the single terminal arrangement at Fulton / Franklin, this would not be possible, but by terminating alternate trains at Park Place, this becomes easily possible.
However, Rogers Junction (where the Eastern Parkway and Nostrand Avenue services merge/diverge) is a constraining factor under the current service plan.
IIRC, if both extra East Side trains come from Utica or New Lots (4 or another odd diamond-5 working), there is no problem. By creating an extra 2-train, another 5 or diamond-5 might have to go to/from Utica or New Lots, but I don't think this causes too much hassle from an operational standpoint and it is more politically acceptable to switch one journey's terminal than to switch every journey on that route.
The Franklin Avenue Shuttle platforms (except Prospect Park) are 170 feet long...long enough for two 75-footers, not long enough for anything else (not even three 60-footers, not that that could be done with NYCT's present car confiuguration, anyway). It should also be mentioned that Park Place is a single-track station, making it unsuitable as a mid-line terminal (I can easily see a situation IN PRACTICE in which a train gets to Franklin Avenue, then can't get out because of trains in and around Park Place).
If most people wouldn't be boarding the two-car trains anyway, then why bother running them? All they do is create a possible source of delay, confuse passengers, and cause queuing problems on the platforms.
As to the IRT situation, that's pretty much what I was trying to say. However, over the past 30+ years that the present pattern has been in operation (each branch -- Eastern Parkway and Nostrand Avenue -- gets both Lexington Avenue and Seventh Avenue service in the rush hours), people have gotten used to it, and I maintain that it would be difficult if not impossible to get the local politicians to allow a change to happen, even if it's for the "right" reasons. In 1982, when the pattern was revised so that 10-car #2 trains served the Nostrand Avenue branch while 9-car #3 trains were moved to the New Lots Avenue branch (extension of the Eastern Parkway branch), the local politicians screamed bloody murder -- and that wasn't that big a deal!
David
Not all 5 trains need to be removed from the Nostrand branch, and the change doesn't have to happen all at once. Already, many rush hour 5 trains go to Utica and New Lots -- start by advertising the current service pattern better. Then gradually start moving 5's from Flatbush to New Lots, maybe one or two trips each pick over the course of a few years, adding a 2 to fill in for each 5 that used to go to Flatbush. Already most Nostrand passengers take whichever train comes first and transfer at Franklin or Nevins to the train they actually need. Stop when the West Side overcrowding (on the local south of 96th as well as on the express) is relieved -- if any 5's still go to Flatbush, great.
We're talking about an emergency situation here (see thread title). Whatever would have to be done, would have to be done all at once.
David
I know. In that case, the politicians would have to live -- the choice is whether to leave some passengers stranded on the platform or to give others one-seat rides One-seat rides are great but not when they deny others access to the trains at all.
I was shifting the topic to what could be done right now, with no emergency. All of the IRT lines are very crowded. There is a way to reduce the crowding on one line without increasing it on others (in fact, increasing 2/3 service would draw some passengers away from the 4/5, primarily those headed for lower Manhattan but also some of those going to the Bronx and some who transfer in downtown Brooklyn or in Manhattan). I agree that making a sudden change wouldn't fly politically but gradual changes might fit beneath the radar screen.
In the event of the emergency, I'd want more people to use the IRT at Franklin. (with the Brighton local terminating at Botanic Gardens) 7th av seems to be the only place where more trains could be squeezed in at. Sending more 5 trains to New Lots or Utica would allow for more 2 trains to be put in on the line, and it's really the only way service could be increased, thanks to the configuration of Rogers junction. Why not put those trains on the map as a peak direction 5 service (since that's what it is anyway), and then add in more 2 trains.
However, the BEST solution at hand is to give people the one seat ride through the existing tunnel below half-capacity. And that's the Rutgers tunnel. By advertising the F as giving an EXPRESS, DIRECT ride to 6th avenue stations, you could probably attract more passengers to it. (That means terminating the V at Kings Hwy and G at Church Av. during rush hours.)
It should also be mentioned that Park Place is a single-track station, making it unsuitable as a mid-line terminal
I'd argue quite the reverse - its being the first single track station makes it a very good midline terminal as (1) the track's already bi-directionally set up and (2) you don't have to clear everyone off the train for a relay.
(I can easily see a situation IN PRACTICE in which a train gets to Franklin Avenue, then can't get out because of trains in and around Park Place).
Here's a list of possible situations:
1) Train A approx 1 min ahead of Train B - Train A runs to Fulton, Train B to Park Place - Train B returns 6 minutes ahead of Train A. The previous train has to have left Fulton / Franklin at least 7 minutes before Train A (scheduled 10), so MUST leave Park Place before Train B arrives (Train A is in between anyway).
2) Train A approx 2 mins ahead of Train B Northbound - Train B 4 minutes ahead of Train A Southbound.
3) Train A approx 3 mins ahead of Train B Northbound - Train B 3 minutes ahead of Train A Southbound.
4) Train A approx 4 mins ahead of Train B Northbound - Train B 2 minutes ahead of Train A Southbound.
5) Train A approx 5 mins ahead of Train B Northbound - Train B 1 minute ahead of Train A Southbound. Slight delays may be experienced at Park Place.
6) Train A approx 6 mins ahead of Train B Northbound - Train B held for 1 minute at Botanic Garden for Train A to clear single track section, then operated to Fulton / Franklin.
7) Train B approx 7 mins ahead of Train B Northbound - both run to Fulton / Franklin - no conflict.
8) Incident at Fulton / Franklin - all trains turn at Park Place.
9) Incident at Park Place - bit of a problem - take all S trains OOS - one may be stranded at Fulton / Franklin, but not much can be done about that.
Short of case 9, only a 5 minute gap between a Fulton / Franklin and Park Place Train will cause any delay and at that a slight one, which could be compensated for by holding the train at Fulton / Franklin a minute longer.
If most people wouldn't be boarding the two-car trains anyway, then why bother running them?
See arguments for V Train reducing crowding on more popular trains etc, despite not being overly popular in itself...
the local politicians screamed bloody murder -- and that wasn't that big a deal!
Presumably led by Mr Richard Cranium.
Trust you to notice my obvious mistake muddling up Franklin and Nostrand. The point I was making is however still valid - there is capacity for an extra 9 tph on the C train (I'm only proposing +1 or maybe 2 tph), the bottleneck coming on the 8th Av Local with the E Train at 15 tph.
However, the Franklin Av shuttle can only run two cars. I doubt that any more people will be able to fit on the two car trains during rush hours, they're already decently filled. That's why I suggested turning trains at Botanic Gardens with a platform extension. This way, you could run something to the effect of 10tph on the Brighton local. (I'm suggesting 8 car trains of 60' cars, or 480' trains) And, you could still run the Shuttle from the Northbound platform. By doing this, you can get people to get off the shuttle and take the 4/5 trains. The temporary platform extension wouldn't be a problem on the embankment construction of Botanic Gardens, similar to what was done at a brighton local station in the 80's.
They would provide exactly the same number of cars as before - in fact, the majority of trains would be ten cars. The average wait for a ten car train would be slightly under 4 minutes and 37 seconds - an improvement for local stops where the current average is about 7 minutes 30 seconds. Of course in this "emergency" scheme, the wait would vary from 2 to 7 minutes, but the longest wait would still be lower than the previous average wait at local stops. This would more than make up for the fact that 18.75% of the service was provided by 2 car trains. A lot of people wouldn't get on the 2 car trains anyway - they wouldn't give a one seat ride to Manhattan.
That implies that the Brighton/Montague train would run local. I'd run that train express to Brighton Beach, because it's the through train to manhattan. Franklin trains to Botanic gardens could be run at as high a headway as the one track terminal at Botanic Gardens would allow, and I'd build that terminal to support 480' trains. (You could also throw in a train or two of 6-car R-68's, using some 2 car units from the shuttle).
The arrangement I'd use would be something to the effect of:
Brighton:
(Q)-12 tph 8-car R-68/46's. Brighton Beach to Continental. Brighton/Broadway express, Queens Plaza Local.
(S)-10tph 8-car R-40/40M/42. Coney Island to Botanic Gardens. Brighton Local.
(S)- one 2-car train from Botanic Gardens to Franklin Av.
(W)- 10 tph 8-car R-68/68A. Coney Island to Ditmas Av Astoria. 4th av local/Broadway Local.
(N)-8 tph 10 car R-32/40/40M/42 86th st to Ditmas Av Astoria. 4th av/Broadway local.
(R)-Shuttle to 36th st. 6-car R-46. Local.
This plan only sends 12tph to Brighton instead of 13 or 14, But I'm banking on the fact that people will eventually get tired of crowds and will instead ride the F/V on Culver (With F's express from Bergen to Kings Hwy.) or will take the 2/3 at Franklin avenue.
However, the Franklin Av shuttle can only run two cars.
I know that.
I doubt that any more people will be able to fit on the two car trains during rush hours, they're already decently filled.
There would be more trains in my scenario - 12tph not 6tph, although because of the silly track layout, half would only reach Park Place.
That's why I suggested turning trains at Botanic Gardens with a platform extension. This way, you could run something to the effect of 10tph on the Brighton local. (I'm suggesting 8 car trains of 60' cars, or 480' trains) And, you could still run the Shuttle from the Northbound platform. By doing this, you can get people to get off the shuttle and take the 4/5 trains. The temporary platform extension wouldn't be a problem on the embankment construction of Botanic Gardens, similar to what was done at a brighton local station in the 80's.
I agree that your plan would also work, but would necessitate some construction.
That implies that the Brighton/Montague train would run local.
I stated that explicitly. Running it local gives riders at Ocean Parkway, Gravesend Neck Rd, Av U, Av M, Av J, Av H, Cortelyou Rd, Beverley Rd and Parkside Av a one seat ride which you would deny them. Unless you can demonstrate that the ridership at the five Express Stations on this section is over double (i.e. an equal amount for the local PLUS the same again for the express) the ridership at all those local stations, what you are suggesting is merely a device to screw local riders, like the IND tried (and failed) in Queens with the GG and in Brooklyn with the HH. If any train should run express, it should be the SS, as an encouragement to ride a line which would necessitate a transfer.
This plan only sends 12tph to Brighton instead of 13 or 14, But I'm banking on the fact that people will eventually get tired of crowds and will instead ride the F/V on Culver (With F's express from Bergen to Kings Hwy.) or will take the 2/3 at Franklin avenue.
I agree that encouraging people onto the Culver with a Peak Direction Express IN ADDITION TO current local service levels would be a VERY good idea. Your plan may go down better with Brighton Riders if you made the Local an (N) not an (S) - route it to Manhattan via the Sea Beach (this is the one through routing at Stillwell Avenue which would be operationally easy), plus the Sea Beach is a good fast line as a certain of our esteemed colleagues in California keeps reminding us (Hey, Fred, would you like to ride that one?)!
(R)-Shuttle to 36th st. 6-car R-46. Local.
Would be less of an operational headache than the 59th-95th Shuttle that I'm suggesting, but it would require more trains. Plus 59th-95th is possible on 7-10 minute headways with two trains (would be enough to connect perfectly with every single N Train!). One thing you have got absolutely right is getting rid of 4th Av Express - necessary even without using the Express Tracks as a Bay Ridge Shuttle Lay-Up.
British James? I would like to ride the Sea Beach any time, anywhere, but I would much prefer it over the Manhattan Bridge as an express. But one thing at a time I guess. Thanks for the plug and thanks for thinking of me.
I would like to ride the Sea Beach any time, anywhere
Once it's back on the bridge, there'd better be a fan-trip! I'd try to find the money to get to NYC for that one!
I would much prefer it over the Manhattan Bridge as an express.
Indeed the only good routing using the Sea Beach Line and the Montague Street tunnel was the M Train run in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 - best Eastern and Southern branches on one train!
Thanks for the plug and thanks for thinking of me.
Any time, Fred!
I stated that explicitly. Running it local gives riders at Ocean Parkway, Gravesend Neck Rd, Av U, Av M, Av J, Av H, Cortelyou Rd, Beverley Rd and Parkside Av a one seat ride which you would deny them. Unless you can demonstrate that the ridership at the five Express Stations on this section is over double (i.e. an equal amount for the local PLUS the same again for the express) the ridership at all those local stations, what you are suggesting is merely a device to screw local riders, like the IND tried (and failed) in Queens with the GG and in Brooklyn with the HH. If any train should run express, it should be the SS, as an encouragement to ride a line which would necessitate a transfer.
For the record, the GG did not fail, there was just more of a need for trains into manhattan, and that's why it was put off of QB, decades after it's beginning. Somehow, I don't think that people would mind doing a cross-platform transfer. And from what I've picked up, Express stations on Brighton do get significantly more riders than local stations. The whole point of running the through train as an express is to give those people a quicker ride (and chances are more people are going to be on these trains anyway, Q expresses are often more crowded than locals, I attribute this to the fact that people who want local stations ride to the nearest express station and transfer to the local). By making the manhattan train a local you:
1. screw express riders
2. screw local riders who ride the expresses some distance
3. possibly deny riders of all local service, because S and Q trains have to cross in front of each other, so it wouldn't really be worth it.
I agree that encouraging people onto the Culver with a Peak Direction Express IN ADDITION TO current local service levels would be a VERY good idea. Your plan may go down better with Brighton Riders if you made the Local an (N) not an (S) - route it to Manhattan via the Sea Beach (this is the one through routing at Stillwell Avenue which would be operationally easy), plus the Sea Beach is a good fast line as a certain of our esteemed colleagues in California keeps reminding us (Hey, Fred, would you like to ride that one?)!
The reason why I ran the culver express between Church and Bergen (peak direction only between Church and Kings hwy.) is because I'm trying to give riders a direct ride into manhattan on an underused route. For a local rider on the Brighton line, that local route is a long and roundabout way, which will probably not be utilized much, and you screw Sea Beach riders too, their local train will only be a shuttle to connect with the express that will run as the through service.
Would be less of an operational headache than the 59th-95th Shuttle that I'm suggesting, but it would require more trains.
You're acting as if trains would be a problem. Remeber, the R could give all of it's trainsets to the Q, V and G for their extensions, but there would still be many cars. The M has been truncated (I'd put those 8 car trains on the S) and the Q express is giving up all of it's cars. There's more than enough cars for the trains to 36th, at most you need 4 trainsets. Plus, you give R riders the option of getting on either the N or the W at 36th.
I agree that your plan would also work, but would necessitate some construction.
The temporary platform constructed in the 80's required a single weekend. This platform might take a little longer, but it would still be operational in a week AT MOST.
the GG did not fail, there was just more of a need for trains into manhattan
I.e. it failed as a Queens Boulevard rapid transit route. You can dress it up in whatever terminology you like, but the simple fact is that riders at local stations require the easiest possible access to Manhattan.
1. screw express riders
Nope. They would still have a one seat ride to Manhattan. The time savings by running Express on the Brighton Line are not much - about 5 minutes. At 8tph on both local and express, you can expect a wait of 3m45s. This makes it an average gain of 1m15s if you decide to pass up a local for the next express. It is a gain, but not much. Furthermore they would still have exactly the same number of cars per hour to fit into.
The only way you can prove that riders at the Express stations deserve twice as much service as everyone else is by seeing if the sum of the ridership stats for all express stations is at least double the sum of the ridership stats for all local only stations. Once you provide the numbers to demonstrate that, the express riders would have a good case.
2. screw local riders who ride the expresses some distance
Not at all. I'd probably put in a Culver Peak Direction Express. The riders at Ocean Parkway and West 8th Street (who would be the only riders to benefit from changing train) would then have an alternative Express.
3. possibly deny riders of all local service, because S and Q trains have to cross in front of each other, so it wouldn't really be worth it.
That's why I'd be inclined to make everything local on the Brighton Line if the Bridge weren't available.
The reason why I ran the culver express between Church and Bergen (peak direction only between Church and Kings hwy.) is because I'm trying to give riders a direct ride into manhattan on an underused route.
Agreed. A second Culver service would probably be a useful express.
For a local rider on the Brighton line, that local route is a long and roundabout way, which will probably not be utilized much
It's neither ridiculously long, nor roundabout, particularly if you happen to live near that line.
and you screw Sea Beach riders too, their local train will only be a shuttle to connect with the express that will run as the through service.
WRONG!!! Bay Ridge would be the shuttle. This would indeed require the Bay Ridge Shuttle crossing in front of the Queens-bound N Train because the switches at 59th St are at the wrong end of the station. If the Franklin - Brighton Line were to be connected to Manhattan via the Sea Beach (i.e. the fastest CI-Manhattan Line), it would have to be as an extension of the N Train, not running along the center tracks (one of which is abandoned anyhow).
You're acting as if trains would be a problem. Remeber, the R could give all of it's trainsets to the Q, V and G for their extensions, but there would still be many cars.
They would - the Culver Express would take up many of the ex-R-Trains. Two trains would be needed for the R Shuttle, plus extra train crews to operate the Franklin / Brighton Line.
the Q express is giving up all of it's cars.
No it wouldn't. They'd be needed as Q Locals. There would be more Q Locals (13tph not 8tph), plus the line would be longer (via Montague, to Queens).
The temporary platform constructed in the 80's required a single weekend. This platform might take a little longer, but it would still be operational in a week AT MOST.
Sounds like it should be done.
"The only way you can prove that riders at Express stations deserve twice as much service as everyone else is by seeing if the sum of ridership stats for all express stations is at least double the sum of the ridership stats for all local only stations."
Please check out post 357686 (July 16). The weekday proportion is similar. Ergo, the requirement is met.
No, the express stations have only 1.5 times the ridership of the local stations; running an equal number of expresses as locals gives them proportionately too much service, and running only the expresses into Manhattan denies direct Manhattan access to 41% of the passengers and ensures that the expresses will be packed (since everyone on a local will necessarily transfer to the express at the next express stop).
(I'm excluding Prospect Park and points north from my calculations, since it makes no difference to people there whether they take the local or the express. It makes little difference at Church also; if I exclude Church, the local and express ridership are practically equal -- off by a factor of .02.)
(No, the express stations have only 1.5 times the ridership of the local stations; running an equal number of expresses as locals
gives them proportionately too much service, and running only the expresses into Manhattan denies direct Manhattan access to
41% of the passengers and ensures that the expresses will be packed.)
I don't have the numbers in front of me -- they are at work -- but it seems that your share for express stations is too low if bus transfers are involved, as they are on the Brighton and in Queens. The express stations are also the major bus transfers for those outside the subway area in Marine Park, Sheepshead Bay, Flatlands and East Flatbush. They get heavy ridership.
I have not been a NYC resident for over 20 years, so I don't know about this. Do you mean that, with the MetroCard, fares collected from people transferring from bus to subway are not included in the counts for patronage on the subway? If true, those numbers are WAY off. You're right, most of the buses serve the express stations.
Please check out post 357686 (July 16). The weekday proportion is similar. Ergo, the requirement is met.
WRONG AGAIN!!! The ridership at express stations in those figures is only 1.5 times the ridership at local stations, not over 2 times which would justify all express. In fact, those figures (if the weekday figures are similar) only justify running a maximum of one train to/from Manhattan in three express (at current levels 5 or 6 tph, with the Manny B closed completely 4 tph). Even at 6 tph, the average wait for the express would be greater than or equal to the time saved by riding it, so the express service benefits no-one and disadvantages a hell of a lot of riders. From those figures, the better argument constructed upon them would be the same as it was in Astoria: scrap express service now. I know you are a fan of the Brighton Line, but the force of reason seems to be against Brighton Express.
Did you figure in 7th Av. and Atlantic Av.?
No, because the express section ENDS at Parkside Avenue. That is the last stop the <Q> skips, so it's the last one that makes a difference. Prospect Park, 7th Av, Atlantic Av etc are NOT on the express section.
I.e. it failed as a Queens Boulevard rapid transit route. You can dress it up in whatever terminology you like, but the simple fact is that riders at local stations require the easiest possible access to Manhattan.
How can you say that? Riders at local stations require the easiest possible access to Manhattan? I think that the Queens Boulevard line is the EXACT opposite of that statement. Expresses were packed beyond their capacity while the R train (which connects with the 4/5/6 at 59th instead of just the 6 at 53rd/lex) has been at 74% capacity. And, many people east of Roosevelt continue to transfer to expresses at Roosevelt, something that the G train allowed riders to do just fine. You can't say that the G failed as a Queens boulevard route when people do the same thing now that they did on the G previously.
Nope. They would still have a one seat ride to Manhattan. The time savings by running Express on the Brighton Line are not much - about 5 minutes. At 8tph on both local and express, you can expect a wait of 3m45s. This makes it an average gain of 1m15s if you decide to pass up a local for the next express. It is a gain, but not much. Furthermore they would still have exactly the same number of cars per hour to fit into.
The only way you can prove that riders at the Express stations deserve twice as much service as everyone else is by seeing if the sum of the ridership stats for all express stations is at least double the sum of the ridership stats for all local only stations. Once you provide the numbers to demonstrate that, the express riders would have a good case.
First off, you're using this sickening formula. Only if express stations have double riders? let's be realistic, local trains will generally not be ridden at an express stop, and will probably donate some of their riders to the express train. Your formula just states that this line needs more tph at certain stations only. Why not just run those extra trains local too, and then give everyone the service boost? Why not run all trains local, and give everyone a service boost? That's because you can give some people a faster ride, and the others will get the same slow ride they did before.
On this site, everyone proclaims the holy-one-seat-ride-to-manhattan. Guess what? A cross platform transfer is not that bad kids. That's right, I'm asking people to get up, take a few steps, stand still and then take a few more steps. Asking people to walk a little is not a sin. Plus, the local train service that would be provided would give passengers a choice of a transfer to a Q express at the express stop of their choice, or to the 2/3/4/5 at Franklin. I don't see how this 'screws' local riders. Granted, they might no longer have a one seat ride into manhattan (gasp!), but many people transfer as a matter of practice everyday, because they have to anyway (B'way-Nassau/Fulton St being a prime example). Asking these people to transfer is nothing, but you're making it a big deal. Under your philosophy, there's no reason to run the Franklin-Brighton line at all.
Not at all. I'd probably put in a Culver Peak Direction Express. The riders at Ocean Parkway and West 8th Street (who would be the only riders to benefit from changing train) would then have an alternative Express.
Many riders ride a bus to the brighton. Riding it to the Culver would benefit these people also.
I'd put the F express in both directions from Bergen to church (much like the A/N/Q/W/4/5 lines in brooklyn) and peak direction from there to Kings Hwy.
That's why I'd be inclined to make everything local on the Brighton Line if the Bridge weren't available.
I messed that line up. I meant to say deny riders of any express service.
[Sea beach/brighton line] neither ridiculously long, nor roundabout, particularly if you happen to live near that line.
The only people who might benefit are those on stations on brighton south of Brighton Beach. Everyone else will leave that line alone. It is long, and it is roundabout. Because of signaling in/around Stillwell av, it would be 10 minutes just between 86th and Brighton Beach, and then you're making EVERY stop to Pacific. That's long.
WRONG!!! Bay Ridge would be the shuttle. This would indeed require the Bay Ridge Shuttle crossing in front of the Queens-bound N Train because the switches at 59th St are at the wrong end of the station. If the Franklin - Brighton Line were to be connected to Manhattan via the Sea Beach (i.e. the fastest CI-Manhattan Line), it would have to be as an extension of the N Train, not running along the center tracks (one of which is abandoned anyhow).
I was under the impression that the train would run express on Sea Beach, but since it's running local, the whole point is moot, the line is a wash.
You're acting as if trains would be a problem. Remeber, the R could give all of it's trainsets to the Q, V and G for their extensions, but there would still be many cars.
They would - the Culver Express would take up many of the ex-R-Trains. Two trains would be needed for the R Shuttle, plus extra train crews to operate the Franklin / Brighton Line.
the Q express is giving up all of it's cars.
No it wouldn't. They'd be needed as Q Locals. There would be more Q Locals (13tph not 8tph), plus the line would be longer (via Montague, to Queens).
Okay, lets analyze this:
The F/V runs 12/10tph. The Culver won't need 20 tph into manhattan (Unless riders start pouring into that line). So, I said that you could still short turn about 2F and 2 V trains so that the mix is 10/8 (about the same as the fulton st. line). You will need only a few extra trainsets to extend the V as 8tph to Brooklyn, and virtually none for the G to Church.
The Q could take the remaining trainsets that the R uses (there will be a lot of R-46's around, enough to expand the Q to 13 tph between 57th and Brooklyn and still have service to Queens. I'm assuming that you would turn short turn Q trains north of 57th, and the others could stop at the express track like normal). The cars from the Q express still haven't been touched yet (maybe a small few have). And, if the Q runs local as you suggest, the Shuttle has no need to be changed, so there's no need for more cars there. There's still plenty of cars for snything you'd like to do with them.
I believe one of your assumptions to be incorrect, that regarding 2-car trains. "Temporary" platform extensions could be used on the Franklin Av. line to accommodate longer trains. Yes, to entice riders, the Franklin Av. trains should run express. And, as J trainloco suggested, perhaps a switch could be installed north of Botanic Garden to reverse trains and, as you suggested, allow for increased capacity.
perhaps a switch could be installed north of Botanic Garden to reverse trains and, as you suggested, allow for increased capacity.
I don't see quite how such a switch would be necessary (unless there were an incident at Park Place). With TPTO, it is theoretically possible to terminate 17 or 18 tph on the line as is (with half to two-thirds of the trains turning short at Park Place).
I see you're at it again with that two train Brighton propaganda. You don't need two trains over the bridge. Stop being so greedy. And who the hell is running the TA anyway? They must all be residents around the Brighton line for all the goodies those trains get.
On the contrary, Fred. You always choose to ignore ridership statistics. Your favorite line was also the favorite of the TA for many years until sensible heads realized that an underutilized line should not get preference over one that is heavily used. Crush-loading at rush hour is synonymous with the Brighton, but a foreign concept with the Slow Beach.
David, thanks very much for those statistics. They certainly are the basis of formulating service, and not just for the doomsday scenario. Seems to me there is even relevance to the current situation. If the Brighton has so many customers as compared with the 4th Av. lines, it too should be getting two weekend services, express and local.
David posted the average weekday ridership statistics. Don't you want weekend statistics if you're discussing weekend service patterns?
Right now, 4th Avenue (which has greater weekday ridership than Brighton) has two weekend services into Manhattan, the N and the R. (The W terminates at Pacific.) I don't see it as obvious that a lesser used line also needs two services.
Now, my impression is that, on weekends, Brighton has much greater ridership than all of 4th Avenue combined, so perhaps additional service would be warranted. However, the primary reason both the N and R exist is that they go to different places. The Q, while far from empty, is rarely overcrowded on weekends. Once in Manhattan, there's certainly no justification for more Broadway service than currently exists -- I rarely see anyone standing on any of the Broadway BMT lines on weekends. The same cannot be said for any of the IRT lines. If the TA is going to spend money increasing service somewhere, shouldn't it be on the most crowded lines?
Quite right, David, the weekday statistics, only, were posted. I think the other David posted weekend statistics (for the previous year) some time ago. If my memory doesn't betray me, the proportion was similar (that's how I guessed the 13:17 ratio in a previous post). Also, if my memory serves me correctly, the Q runs every 8 minutes for most of Saturday and a good deal of Sunday. Let's say, during those time frames, both express and local services were run, but at 10 minute headways each. We should be able to calculate how many extra train sets would that cost. We would have to figure in the savings in running time of the express from 57th--7th to Brighton Beach and the savings in having every other train terminating there instead of at Coney Island. TA statistics have ridership up to 1953 levels, again if my memory serves me well, quite a bit higher than just a decade ago. I agree, the heavily used lines should benefit from increased service, but I confess that I live far from NYC and therefore am not familiar with many of the lines, first and foremost the A division lines. Whenever I do get into my hometown, I am sure to ride my favorite (obvious which one). But if I say that NYC is quite some distance from my moledet of the past 24 years, you'll understand where I am and the reason that I am only as current on NYC subways as my relatively infrequent visits and the responsible posts on subtalk.
Don't get me wrong. From what I've seen (with my eyes, that is, not on a list of official numbers), in Brooklyn, the Q is by far the busiest of the south Brooklyn BMT lines. (Just yesterday, I tried to transfer to the Q at Atlantic, but I missed a train because seemingly the entire world was coming up the one staircase. From a Manhattan-bound train! Where were they all going?) If service on any of those lines is increased, it should be on the Q. Whether that's done by adding express service or simply by adding more local service I can't say without seeing the numbers. (Church obviously has heavy ridership. Do the other express stations have greater ridership than the local stations? I have no idea. Express service is a bad idea if it results in empty expresses and crowded locals, so it's important to consider the numbers.)
I don't blame you at all for having an allegiance to your favorite line, and I appreciate that you deal with it logically, unlike one poster in California. You are excused for not being a MetroCard swipe away.
I heard that Greenie and the boys and I are going to pay you a visit when we invade New York in October. Never mess with the Sea Beach man. He gets a little crazy when his train is maligned. Wierd for a 61 year old man to act, eh?
Your train? I didn't malign your train. I'll say it again: the Sea Beach is my favorite of the four routes to Coney Island, and it's one of my favorite lines in the system. It also happens to have pretty low ridership.
I like the Slow Beach, too. But one has to invest a lot of time to ride it, so I haven't done that in years.
Listen Bub, you don't like the Sea Beach, otherwise you would ride it and you wouldn't call it the ..., well, you know what. It wouldn't be the .... ..... if it were an express and out of that damn rat infested Montague Tunnel.
True, true. But the Astoria leg does makes things even more interesting. And the SB could still go express to Times Square, and continue local up to Astoria.
The Sea Beach is the fastest of the four routes to Coney Island, at least when it goes to Coney Island.
Which now it doesn't thanks to your friends at the TA. Maybe you could put in a good word, and then, walla, we could become an express, go over the Manny B and then to Coney Island where I would treat you to a Nathan's hot dog after we ride the Cyclone, front row of course.
Well then, you're ok. Think of it this way. If it were an Express and ran over the bridge ridership would increase because of the convenience of it. How can it be convenient when it stops at every station, duplicates the R up to 59th Street and is stuck in that disgusting Montague Tunnel?
There are ridership statistics from the glory days of the BMT, 1927-28. Check out www.bmt-lines.com. Your train did not do much better, proportionally, then as compared with the other BMT lines. So going over the bridge is not likely to help in that respect, IMHO.
The N runs express on weekdays in Brooklyn between Pacific and 59th.
As for Manhattan, if the N ran express, R trains would be extremely crowded well into the evening and on weekends. A local is convenient to more people than an express; it's just slower for some of them.
I was at Whitehall a few weeks ago. I looked into the tunnel. Didn't see any rats.
I was at Whitehall a few weeks ago. I looked into the tunnel. Didn't see any rats.
The Aligators ate them.
: )
Take my word for it, they're there, and if you don't take my word, venture out aways and you'll see for yourself----if you are dumb enough to try. I saw them from the train. Ugly bastards.
Oh, I've tangled with the Sea Beach man and gotten out of it all right. It's all in fun, Fred. I know your ride on the Slow Beach is going to take a loooong time. You won't have much time left over for anything else, so if I were David, I wouldn't worry about your visit.
That's what I like about you Q, you're a real smart ass. Maybe I'll just ride the Brighton and when you least expect it sneak up on you and give you the what for.
See you there. BTW, should I give your regards to the cashier at Adelman's.
Oh please do. She was a pretty Russian girl, too young for me, but she sure seemed to like me. My Sea Beach charm I guess.
David, your namesake posted the numbers on individual Brighton line stations some time ago. I'd have to go look through my print-outs to find the exact post, let me know if you want the figures and I'll get the number and date of the post. But in short, to my recollection, all of the express stations, led by Kings Highway, have by far more passengers than the local stations, except Av. U. I trust that your point is well-taken concerning no need to increase frequency of Broadway Express service, so perhaps (re-)institution of Brighton Express service on weekends might have to wait until 2004, when presumably both the D and the Q will service the Brighton line. On the other hand, instituting express service, at the expense of some local service as I outlined in the previous post, would provide increased service to the Manhattan stations and almost all of the heavily used Brooklyn stations (Kings Highway, Sheepshead Bay, Church Av. and Atlantic Av.).
The numbers he posted were, IIRC, weekday ridership statistics, which, unless my eyes have deceived me, are very different from weekend ridership statistics on the Brighton. On weekends, half the train empties out at Parkside and Church and from Church on south the Q is as empty as any other south Brooklyb BMT line. The only segment of the line where I think more service might be warranted is between DeKalb (maybe Canal) and Church. Of course, we can't add service just there, and I don't know if it makes more sense to add service on the entire line even though the trains will be running around mostly empty most of the way or to keep service as it is despite the crowded conditions. (If trains aren't so crowded that people have trouble fitting or trains can't keep to schedule, I'd be inclined to go for the latter.)
Here they are! (all for year 2000)
AVERAGE SATURDAY
Brighton: 61,444
Fourth Avenue: 39,032
Sea Beach: 14,173
West End: 19,991
(62nd Street/New Utrecht Avenue: 2,447)
AVERAGE SUNDAY
Brighton: 50,568
Fourth Avenue: 29,196
Sea Beach: 11,399
West End: 16,387
(62nd Street/New Utrecht Avenue: 1,859)
As for the Brighton, here's the breakdown:
AVERAGE SATURDAY
Ocean Parkway: 1,722
Brighton Beach: 6,201
Sheepshead Bay: 5,309
Neck Road: 1,746
Avenue U: 4,233
Kings Highway: 6,928
Avenue M: 1,917
Avenue J: 2,873
Avenue H: 1,424
Newkirk Avenue: 5,139
Cortelyou Road: 3,356
Beverley Road: 1,619
Church Avenue: 10,005
Parkside Avenue: 3,710
(Prospect Park/with Shuttle: 4,850)
Seventh Avenue: 5,462
AVERAGE SUNDAY
Ocean Parkway: 1,604
Brighton Beach: 5,579
Sheepshead Bay: 3,908
Neck Road: 1,366
Avenue U: 3,489
Kings Highway: 5,815
Avenue M: 1,950
Avenue J: 2,744
Avenue H: 1,164
Newkirk Avenue: 3,963
Cortelyou Road: 2,636
Beverley Road: 1,312
Church Avenue: 7,262
Parkside Avenue: 3,042
(Prospect Park/with Shuttle: 3,774)
Seventh Avenue: 4,734
David
Thanks. Those numbers aren't exactly what I expected to see, but I was right about Church being a major destination. How do they compare to the numbers on other lines that have weekend express service? How do they compare to the numbers on other lines that have express service on weekdays but not weekends?
I'm not going to print the whole book (it's dozens of pages long). I'll give a sampling, though:
AVERAGE WEEKDAY/SATURDAY/SUNDAY (2000)
Pelham: 74,009/41,580/30,608
White Plains Road: 87,645/51,771/36,761
Flushing: 204,753/135,103/107,096
Queens Boulevard: 225,473/121,325/87,986
Fulton Street: 82,741/49,371/35,871
Remember, stations that serve more than one line (Jay Street, Queensboro Plaza, 149th Street-Grand Concourse, etc.) are not included in these counts.
David
Thank you. Very interesting, as always (but I was hoping you'd sneak in something from Manhattan, like my line from 42nd on up -- although it's probably not nicely grouped that way).
What I find particularly interesting is that, of these five lines, the weekday-to-Sunday ridership ratio ranges from 1.91 to 2.56, with both extremes in Queens. (The Queens Boulevard line has more passengers than the Flushing line on weekdays but fewer passengers on Sundays.) That isn't very surprising: the Flushing line serves local neighborhoods while the Queens Boulevard line gets much of its ridership from people who get to the line by bus and probably don't use the subway much except to commute to and from work. Despite that, the Flushing line doesn't have weekend express service while the Queens Boulevard line does.
David, the most interesting thing, for me, from those statistics is the importance of Brighton Beach on the weekends, in comparison with what I remember from the statistics on its patronage on weekdays. It ranks 3rd, after Kings Highway and Church Av. on the weekends, with almost as many as Kings Highway, which IIRC has the highest patronage on weekdays. So, Brighton Beach, the terminal station, is very important on the weekends, making a good case for (re-)institution of express service on weekends. And thanks for the figures concerning the Flushing Line, which makes a good case for weekend express service there, too.
Yes, but is the Brighton Beach usage heavily skewed towards summertime? Are people using Brighton on weekends more often in the warm months than the cold months?
Next summer oughtta be very interesting, I think, with only W's serving Stillwell and Q's ending at Brighton Beach ...
--Mark
Mark, that would be very interesting if it was seasonal and I suspect, it is. All the more reason for having express service during the summer months. Sort of reminiscent of the Brighton-Franklin Expresses that operated only during the summer months, many years ago.
Not surprised those Kings Highway and Church have the highest number, espcially stations with bus route connections (these bus lines are southeast Brooklyn's main access to the Brighton line)
I use Kings Highway Station, and like a lot of people continue on the B82 or B7; the B100 out into Mill Basin, B2 to Kings Plaza, B31 to the Beach
Church Avenue is always and forever packed (and one of the nightmares to travel on, besides Flatbush Avenue)
Question, how many pass through the numbered lines terminal Utica Avenue 1/4 and Nostrand Avenue 2/5? (because they are always jammed; reason I take the Brighton line at times, and many others)
Utica Avenue/Eastern Parkway (year 2000):
Average Weekday: 27,258
Average Saturday: 14,907
Average Sunday: 10,571
Flatbush Avenue (year 2000) (I'm assuming this is what was meant, rather than Nostrand Avenue):
Average Weekday: 18,816
Average Saturday: 7,605
Average Sunday: 5,250
David
Hey thanks David :)
Have to take Utica in the morning, btw which was just rated the most dangerous intersection in Brooklyn - Utica And Eastern Parkway
Problem is, the terminal is in the center of the service and main roasd, but instead of extending the station exit/enterance onto the larger sidewalk, its left in the center and they put up a j-walking rail so now everyone has to go in the middle of the street
Don't know how the Lexington and 7th Ave lines handle the crowd some mornings
the most dangerous intersection in Brooklyn - Utica And Eastern Parkway
You mean in terms of accidents? It used to be Flatbush Ave & Ave U ... when did that change?
--Mark
For years it was Eastern Pkway and Atlantic coming off the viaduct over the LIRR Station. Alot of people disregarded the "no turns" sign and made a right onto Eastern not knowing about the service road on their right.
I have to find the news article again, but ch 5 did an article about it bout 2 months ago. Utica Ave and Eastern Parkway was the worst in congestion
Not surprised those Kings Highway and Church have the highest number, espcially stations with bus route connections (these bus lines are southeast Brooklyn's main access to the Brighton line)
I use Kings Highway Station, and like a lot of people continue on the B82 or B7; the B100 out into Mill Basin, B2 to Kings Plaza, B31 to the Beach
Church Avenue is always and forever packed (and one of the nightmares to travel on, besides Flatbush Avenue)
Question, how many pass through the numbered lines terminal Utica Avenue 1/4 and Nostrand Avenue 2/5? (because they are always jammed; reason I take the Brighton line at times, and many others)
David, thank you very, very much for those statistics. Among the stations of the Brighton Line, Brighton Beach ranks third in patronage on weekends! This for me is quite a surprise as, IIRC from statistics you posted some time ago, Brighton Beach had the lowest or next-to-lowest patronage among the express stations of the Brighton Line during weekdays. Seems to me, this presents a strong case for (re-)institution of express service on weekends.
Any chance you have numbers from the Culver too?
Culver Line Average Ridership (year 2000):
(Neptune Avenue through York Street, excluding 4th Avenue and Jay Street)
WEEKDAY: 79,498
SATURDAY: 43,274
SUNDAY: 34,528
David
The Plan that I suggested has trains turning SOUTH of Botanic Gardens, with no new switches needed to be put in. All you have to do is extend the southbound platform to be able to accomodate 480' trains. Then trains can turn by switching to the southbound track south of the station, terminating, and going back to Prospect Park on the southbound track. The problem with extending the other platforms is that they are on an elevated structure, whereas the one station platform extension I suggested is on an embankment,making for easier installation, and allows the franklin av shuttle to operate along the rest of the line.
Weren't the platforms at Fulton / Franklin, Park Place and indeed Dean Street longer at some stage? If so shouldn't there be stanchions left to put more platform on?
The Shuttle was 6 cars in 1980s, then 4, then down to the present 2. Before they tore the whole line down and rebuilt it, the platforms (if u could call them that) were longer.
Botanic Gardens wouldn't be that hard to extend; Franklin maybe since they centered it. Dean Street was elimated. (I remember at the end watching that whole platform sway when trains pulled into it, scary)
Overall if ur still going to consider this, you have to consider the new issues during rush hour on the 1, 2, 4, 5, A & C lines
you have to consider the new issues during rush hour on the 1, 2, 4, 5, A & C lines
If you look further back on this thread, I managed to demonstrate from numbers provided by David and the TA that this would be no problem.
Weren't the platforms at Fulton / Franklin, Park Place and indeed Dean Street longer at some stage? If so shouldn't there be stanchions left to put more platform on?
The line was also a two track line at one point as well. Portions of the platforms were sectioned off at first, and then, the line was completely re-built, requiring it's closure. The rebuild single-tracked the line north of Botanic Gardens, and re-built the platforms ENTIRELY. The entire alignment of the platforms was changed, so I doubt any 'stanchions' remain for platform extensions.
It think I have a plan which would satisfy the following two points.
1. 6th av riders can use the F or V to get to stops near ANY other south brooklyn line, especially with free bus transfers.
Or stay on the same train through Stillwell Avenue Terminal to get to the Sea Beach and West End Lines
2. Brighton/Sea Beach/West End still get through service to Manhattan.
My plan still has all 5 lines having through service to Manhattan, with Sea Beach and West End Riders having a choice between a one seat ride and a shorter route.
How about:
(F) Hillside - Queens Express - 63rd St - 6th Av Local - Church Av
- up to 10tph
(G) extended to Church Avenue (Local)
- up to 6tph
(N) Hillside - Queens Express - 63rd St - 6th Av Local (Express in Brooklyn) - Culver Peak Direction Express - Sea Beach Local - 59th Street (some may turn short at Kings Highway on the Sea Beach)
- up to 8tph
(Q) Astoria Local - Broadway Local - Brighton Local - Brighton Beach
- up to 10tph
<Q> Astoria Local - Broadway Local - Brighton Express - Kings Highway
- up to 10tph
(R) Continental - Queens Local - Broadway Local - 4th Av Local - Bay Ridge
- up to 10tph
(S) Franklin of course, and also Brighton Beach - West 8th Street
(V) Continental - Queens Local - 53rd St - 6th Av Local (Express in Brooklyn) - Culver Peak Direction Express - West End Local - 36th Street
- up to 12tph
This is similar to the plan proposed by Dupont Circle Station. It's a plan that I disagree with.
1. First off, Why is everyone infatuated with sending more trains to Queens? Under your plan, 6th av is sending 30 tph to/from 6th avenue.
2. Routing trains through Coney Island as you have suggested is extremely inefficient and complicated.
3. Your plan has 30 tph going through both the rutgers and Montague tunnels. It'll be like Queens Blvd. all over!
See, your plan wouldn't be a bad one, except for the fact that riders won't like taking a route the roundabout way and will try taking the through service, making it extremely crowded. In the plan that I suggested, 4th av still has two direct routes, Brighton riders have a through express service and a local service that connects them with a train that will take them relatively close to 6th av/ Broadway and everyone can walk a few extra blocks (GASP! WALKING! What makes you think you have the right to make us walk a few extra blocks) or take a bus to the F train which now runs express to attract more passengers.
Maybe, along the lines of your service, you couldrun the Brighton Local NX style:
Q-Brighton Express to Brighton Beach via montague tunnel.
N-Beginning at Botanical Gardens (as outlined before) then via brighton local to Coney Island, then via Sea Beach express and 4th av express (stops at CI then 36th then Pacific) then thru Montague tunnel to Broadway Lcl. to Ditmas Av. Astoria. Off-hours via Sea Beach Local
NX-rush hours only via Sea Beach Local. Terminates at Dekalb and turns around on Bridge Leads.
R-Local to Dekalb turns around using Bridge Leads
W-4th av express. via montague tunnel.
I still like the my first plan better, but this one gives you both a thru Brighton and 4th av service.
(R)-95 st Bay Ridge to 59th st. All times.
How? You have two options:
1) Build a load of switches across the middle tracks and hold up the N Train horribly.
2) Single rail operation from 59th to just North of 86th where operation as two single lines would be most practical. This would restrict sevice to approx 10 minute headways. Two trains would be required for this service, but probably three train crews (for faster turnaround at 59th Street).
I had forgot that 59th doesn't already have all the switches in place! Well, I'd 'shuttle' the R train as you suggested in option 2 until I could build a relay on the bridge leads. Then I'd send R trains to DeKalb to supplement 4th av local service.
If one line absolutely must get dropped from Montague, I'd pick a 4 Av trunk route. The W would be my choice for the through line.
Franklin can only handle 2 car trains, so it'd be pretty useless for regular daytime Brighton service.
Send the A to Far Rockaway, C to Lefferts, E (QB express/53) to Rockaway Park. Late nights, a shuttle covers for C between Euclid and Lefferts (since A/E are 24/7 lines).
F from 179 express all the way in Queens via 63.
G stays off QB entirely (sorry, Greenpoint, but this scenario would be an emergency rerouting to accommodate far more riders than the G has).
N ("NF") highly unusual routing replaces V: Pacific St, 4 Av local through (or to) Stillwell via Sea Beach, then via Culver (peak direction express) and 53 St to Continental as QB local.
Q from 179 as Hillside/QB/60/Bway/Brighton local 24/7. In peak direction, alternate trains or supplements ("diamond Q"?) from 57-7 run Bway & Brighton express. Additional shuttle buses from key Brighton stations to the Culver.
R Shuttle 36 St/95 St.
W Astoria to Coney Island. Bway & 4 Av Express 6AM-10PM M-F, local other times. West End.
I would expedite connecting the Lawrence & Jay/Boro Hall stations.
An extremely drastic idea would be to make Montague "one way" in the peak direction, but that would require a switch between the express tracks between Prince and Canal, and getting Brighton line riders to use Culver or the Franklin Shuttle & Fulton for travel in the non-peak direction. 4th Av/West End/Sea Beach folks would have to use the "NF".
Send the A to Far Rockaway, C to Lefferts, E (QB express/53) to Rockaway Park. Late nights, a shuttle covers for C between Euclid and Lefferts (since A/E are 24/7 lines).
Let's do some math here:
E-18 tph
A-9/10tph
C-7tph.
Grand total: 34/35tph through Cranberry tube. Fulton local gets 25tph. Not only does this cause unbearable delays EVERY DAY for REGULAR FULTON RIDERS, but it also seems quite pointless. Your banking on the notion that: 1. People whoe ride 6th av or Broadway will walk to 8th avenue trains (which btw has the 7th av trunk line between them.) and 2. that the people will be able to squeeze onto the 2 car Franklin Shuttle to head to Brighton. I don't see why people who are using the B/D/N/Q/W would ever use the A/C/E. It's not near them in Manhattan, or in Brooklyn. Contrary to the suggestion, cramming trains onto Fulton St. Subway won't improve the situation in South Brooklyn.
N ("NF") highly unusual routing replaces V: Pacific St, 4 Av local through (or to) Stillwell via Sea Beach, then via Culver (peak direction express) and 53 St to Continental as QB local.
First off, the terminal at Pacific means that any 4th av express train other than this "NF" train would be significantly delayed. It's also not possible for a train to terminate at Pacific and run local. (Without adding some new switches.). Also, no one going to manhattan is going to ride this train the roundabout way from Pacific or 36th when they have a perfectly good W train. Better to terminate it at 36th st with the W (Which forces the W to run local BTW.) Finally, routing through CI onto culver from Sea Beach would require delays and some single tracking too. That's a real big headache.
I didn't come up with the idea of A/C/E. The C could just as well stay in Manhattan and a full-time shuttle from Euclid to one of the destinations could pick up the slack.
My idea for the "NF" isn't focused on 4th Av service to Manhattan. From 62nd and on 4th Av, it would cover the local stops and provide the Sea Beach service. Passengers boarding between 36 & Pacific would take the W (or the "NF" to the W). Its benefits would be for passengers from 62nd and south: they could chose it going towards the Culver over taking the W to Manhattan. The amount of time would probably be a wash, but it would be a less-crowded alternative. On the Culver, it would alleviate crowding on the F from displaced Brighton riders.
Trackwise, I agree that Pacific is a bit problematic. However, if there are only the two lines (N & W), the delays caused by switching would be tolerable. If it were to be a "few years" situation, the necessary switches could be put in beyond DeKalb on the bridge tracks and it could turn there. At the Coney Island end, however, it wouldn't be that big a deal: Sea Beach to Culver could just do a quick switch onto the West End and then onto the "northbound" Culver just outside Stillwell. Culver to Sea Beach would switch from the "soutbound" F track to the "southbound" N track and would only momentarily block a Stillwell-bound train while it switched to the northbound N track. (At least that's what the track maps show.)
Remember, this is an emergency rerouting scenario we're playing with here. Some delays would just have to be coped with. Would people rather have absolutely no service instead? At least they would still have the subway and be able to continue bitching about it.
I didn't come up with the idea of A/C/E. The C could just as well stay in Manhattan and a full-time shuttle from Euclid to one of the destinations could pick up the slack.
That would eliminate express service. Again, nothing needs to be done with the Fulton.
Trackwise, I agree that Pacific is a bit problematic. However, if there are only the two lines (N & W), the delays caused by switching would be tolerable. If it were to be a "few years" situation, the necessary switches could be put in beyond DeKalb on the bridge tracks and it could turn there.
The bigger problem is that local trains cannot access the express track of 4th av. If the only problem was the delays caused, that wouldn't be a too big a deal with the N & W as you suggest, but you have to add access from the local track.
At the Coney Island end, however, it wouldn't be that big a deal: Sea Beach to Culver could just do a quick switch onto the West End and then onto the "northbound" Culver just outside Stillwell. Culver to Sea Beach would switch from the "soutbound" F track to the "southbound" N track and would only momentarily block a Stillwell-bound train while it switched to the northbound N track. (At least that's what the track maps show.)
Yes, that's true, but that doesn't consider terminating F trains there. You would have to find a new Terminal for the F trains (I don't think every single one can be turned at Kings Hwy's single track terminal.) I guess you could terminate some F's at Church or 18th av, but there are much simpler ways of doing this than routing the Sea Beach Line through CI to Culver.
In a way, the details don't matter. Just make sure everyone is roughly equally miserable.
The solution in simple terms:
- 30 tph on the Culver line (up from 12). Encourage bus passengers to use it rather than the Brighton.
- 30 tph on the A/C (up from 21).
- A 15 tph service from 4th Ave into the Montague tunnel. It doesn't really matter which one.
- A 15 tph service from the Brighton line into the tunnel.
- More 2/3/4/5 trains if possible.
- Other 4th Ave and Brighton trains terminating at Dekalb and on the Franklin Shuttle, allow transfers to the 2/3/4/5 at Atlantic/Pacific, and the A/C at Franklin.
- A free transfer from Dekalb to Hoyt-Schermerhorn in the style of the current transfer at Lex/59th-63rd.
- 30 tph on the Culver line (up from 12). Encourage bus passengers to use it rather than the Brighton.
See, an idea I like. Finally. You don't need 30 tph on Culver, I doubt service would increase that much, but an increase would be good. Running the Culver as an express would attract more riders too.
- 30 tph on the A/C (up from 21).
This AGAIN? Increasing service on the A/C will do NOTHING for the riders affected by the loss of the bridge. The only feasible south brooklyn transfer point is at Jay St, and that is the F train which connects with the A at W4th, and already is running on 6th av, a bridge line. The shuttle isn't a realistic transfer point. Putting 30tph on the A/C does nothing but make more riders miserable that don't have to be.
- Other 4th Ave and Brighton trains terminating at Dekalb and on the Franklin Shuttle, allow transfers to the 2/3/4/5 at Atlantic/Pacific, and the A/C at Franklin.
By allowing the Brighton local to terminate at Botanic Gardens, you allow it to grant transfers to 2,3,4,5 at Franklin. All that is required is 2/3 weeks of work to extend the southbound Botanic Gardens platform to be able to accomodate 480' (or maybe 600') trains. Then the shuttle can terminate on the northbound track.
The Franklin shuttle can't be relied on for transfers to the A/C. Franklin is a local stop, and the shuttle is only 2 cars long and single tracked. Extending Botanic Gardens ain't too hard, because it's on the ground, but the rest of the line would take months, not to mention the neccessary two tracking work.
- A free transfer from Dekalb to Hoyt-Schermerhorn in the style of the current transfer at Lex/59th-63rd.
That wouldn't be used too often. 8th avenue is just a bit out of the ways in manhattan, and the 2/3 is closer. Maybe they might use it for the G, but one or two days of waiting for the G and that's over.
I guess I should have added "if necessary" to the tph numbers. You're probably right that it would be hard to get people to take the A/C because they aren't going to 8th Ave, so that would be 3 trains (ugh).
My main point was that there is plenty of spare capacity. The Montague, Rutgers, and Cranberry tunnels are all way below full capacity right now. The Montague alone can't handle the loss of the bridge, so the trick is to encourage people to use the Rutgers and Cranberry tunnels. The latter probably doesn't work very well, so the main goal is probably to divert as many people as possible to the Rutgers tunnel. And that is best done by getting people who take a bus to the Sea Beach or Brighton lines to take the same bus to the Culver line instead.
The Montague alone can't handle the loss of the bridge, so the trick is to encourage people to use the Rutgers and Cranberry tunnels. The latter probably doesn't work very well, so the main goal is probably to divert as many people as possible to the Rutgers tunnel. And that is best done by getting people who take a bus to the Sea Beach or Brighton lines to take the same bus to the Culver line instead.
Now, I agree wholeheartedly with that idea. Under the plan that I made, the point is to attract riders from Brighton to Culver. Making the F an express would always be music to those rider's ears as well.
This AGAIN? Increasing service on the A/C will do NOTHING for the riders affected by the loss of the bridge.
You are quite mistaken.
1) It provides for more trains Manhattan to Brooklyn.
2) People boarding trains Between H-S and the Cranberry will be attracted to this line (vs 2 3 4 5 or one of the others) by the increased headways.
3) By putting the A C and E on Fulton Street, you free up the Chambers Street Terminal to turn a 6th Avenue Service such as the (V) or the (B) thus not forcing the (D) and the (B) to terminate at 34th Street.
A big picture needs to look at... well, the big picture.
A disruption of the Manhattan Bridge is not just a disruption of Brooklyn, but of all of Sixth Avenue, and by sendign all 8th Avenue Trains out to Fulton Street (And maximaize the Cranberry) you also set up the following possibility:
(D) Kings Highway (Culver)
(F) Coney Island (culver)
(V) Chambers Street
(B) Second Avenue.
Elias
1) AM, both the A/C lines are crowded before you even get to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. This is also where express and local converge, which can be another nuisance all together as they try to decide what train goes in first. Adding more trains to this would cause more issues than now
2) Bringing another trainload to Franklin Avenue is not an option, least u want to hear about it on the midday news. Most of southest Brooklyn (including the Q35 from Queens) crams into Nostrand Avenue (2/5), Utica Avenue (1/4 & A/C) and by Franklin (1,2,4,5,C) are jammed already
"1) AM, both the A/C lines are crowded before you even get to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. This is also where express and local converge, which can be another nuisance all together as they try to decide what train goes in first. Adding more trains to this would cause more issues than now"
If the merge is a problem, then I'm afraid that all of the trains will have to run local. Sorry 'bout that.
Elias
- A free transfer from Dekalb to Hoyt-Schermerhorn in the style of the current transfer at Lex/59th-63rd.
And Atlantic / Pacific - Fulton / Lafayette
A number of years ago I noticed that some of the ex-BMT stations in Manhattan were capable of handling 10 car trains of the 67' BMT "Standards" or 5 car trains of "Triplexes". Did they ever do test runs of such trains to anyone's knowledge?
#3 West End Jeff
Which stations? I doubt this.
Most of these stations had to be extended to accomodate the IND standard of 600' trains. I don't think a single BMT station in Manhattan could handle a 670' train length. Heck, even the 536' long trains would not fit entirely into some stations.
Interesting since it appeared that some or all of the express stations in Manhattan could handle a 10 car train of BMT Standards. Believe it or not there were some IND stations that were set up to handle trains of 11 60' 6" cars.
#3 West End Jeff
The "F" in the fifties with 2 c/rs operated with 11 cars of
arrnines in rush hour service. I was told that all IND stations as built
were capable of handling 11 car 60' trains.
;-) Sparky
Interesting since it appeared that some or all of the express stations in Manhattan could handle a 10 car train of BMT Standards.
Where? I can think of none. All had to be extended just to handle 600' trains after Chrystie St. opened.
What about stations like 28th Street and Rector on Broadway. They seem longer than average. How many cars of what lengths can they handle?
I've seen those stations. They might have been set up to handle ten car trains of BMT "Standards" or 5 car trains of "Triplexes".
#3 West End Jeff
No, these stations were simply extended in the opposite direction. There are no BMT stations that were ever long enough to handle 670' trains. As others have stated, many of these stations could hardly handle the 536' 8-car trains.
What do you mean by the "opposite" direction? Opposite of what? Weren't they both extended in the same direction?
- Lyle Goldman
Extended at the other end. 28th St was extended southward to such an extent that a small piece of the northern section was walled off.
Yes and before they removed the 60's tile, you were still able to see one of the old 28th name mosaics in the walled off area. Now of course you can see all of them.
These stations were extended in the opposite direction to a greater extent than some other stations.
The BMT stations that I recall from the late 50s/early 60s as having longer platforms were Prospect Park, Church Ave., and Sheepshead Bay on the Brighton line. None of these needed to be extended to handle 600' long trains, although I don't know if they were long enough to handle 670' trains. Chambers St. also had/has longer platforms, although I'm not really sure how long.
I recall that Whitehall St. had short platforms, and that on 8 car trains of standards, the last door of the last car opened on a little separate platform behind the main stairs, with its own narrow stairway. Once the line converted to R27/30s, 8 of which fit on the main platform, these little platforms were closed off.
-- Ed Sachs
I hope that someone out there can help me with this one! I am in need of one of the old NYCTA "TA" uniform patches. I've been after one for almost 25 Years, as logos and uniforms change, the older ones you cannot find! I have a few wonderful people out there looking for me, some are MTA Bus Operators/Subway who have had no success, and I even have the MTA Government Relations Department looking! They suggested this fine website. I have patches for the "M" and newer "MTA" patch, but I need an older "TA" style one to complete my collection. I do not live in the New York City area, I am in the Northern Indiana Suburbs Of Chicago (nee, South Shore Line) area, and trying to obtain something like this calls for my brothers and sisters who are out East! I pray you can help! God Bless, and have a great day! :^)
Train #144-The Downtown Local
We were required to turn in ALL uniforms for our last check. Don't think you'll find any of those, sorry to say ... the meatball confiscated every last one (and they KNEW how many you had since they PAID for them back then) ... the badges, the keys, the handles and the uniforms all had to go before YOU did, and thanks to minor "lag pay" compared to these days, you turned that in JUST so the checks would clear.
Let me take a look for you. It won't be free.
BLX has answered on bus talk. You can find these. Look at the response of BLX.
People like THIS give railfans a bad name.
Peace,
ANDEE
Foamer ... indeeeeeeed. (wipes mustache) ... :)
I would put the brunt of the blame squarely on the shoulders of the people responsible for the operation of the monorail. They should have been more diligent in making sure that the controls were better secured.
"Lead a Foamer not unto temptation - for he will surely follow"
Heh. One of these days when I ain't overloaded by 20+ hour workdays, would LOVE to retell the story of the missing #1 Broadway local that was ABD'd short of 191 while we 15-16 year olds climbed out of the grating after stealing a passenger-laden train by stealing the "magic bag" left on the platform of a single-leaf open at 242 while the assigned motorman took a whiz upstairs. :)
Right now, and busting my chops on extreme workload, the story has been posted here before and is IN the archives. Some day though, I'll tell it again. BEWARE of 15 year olds, we didn't KNOW that having big brass clangers was a problem. :)
But yeah, I took a train once and they made me put it back! (hey, maybe THAT is the search keywords to find what I posted before) ... love the internet - anything you say lives on forever (or at least until the media dies or it's actually REALLY deleted by something that actually goes beyond the "forver recycle bin") ... I left MY posterior. Heh.
HEH...if it weren't for the statute of limitations you couldn't tell THAT story.....
Peace,
ANDEE
That's ridiculous. Liberal pap that always blames the next guy while having no thoughts about self-responsibility.
That may be, but I still like the idea of locking the cab door...
Mark
Liberal pap that always blames the next guy while having no thoughts about self-responsibility.
The EWR monorail incident is clearly a case of a security violation. The violator and the security staff are equally at fault. The violator, for hacking; the security staff, for making hacking possible.
By your argument about "self-responsibility", no airline security would be necessary, since Osama bin Laden should be responsible for refraining from crashing airliners into tall buildingd.
I don't care who is at fault, I just don't want to see valuable law enforcement resources wasted by running this guy through the system. Just have him pay a fine and ban him from the system. The arrest and that laundry list of bogus charges was wholely excessive.
wishy---washy
Peace,
ANDEE
MUDEY
moo
Clearly, the PA was attempting to divert responsibility away from itself. The employees responsible should be canned, if they have not already been so.
I don't see any point in the mental health examination, personally, since he didn't do anything horrendous with/to the monorail train or the passengers aboard while he was in control of it.
-Robert King
I don't see any point in the mental health examination, personally, since he didn't do anything horrendous with/to the monorail train or the passengers aboard while he was in control of it.
You and I may not think wanting to operate a train-like vehicle is aberrant, but most "normal" people think we're crazy.
I actually didn't think at all of the desire to operate the train when I made that comment but now that you mention it, it is a very good point. I just accepted the fact that the guy saw the opportunity present itself and took control of the train illegally - all he did was commit a crime. Nothing, not even the commission of a crime, suggests that he is mentally unstable; after all, plenty of sane people break the law all the time. Now, if he took off at top speed and ran it around the line half a dozen times like a maniac with all of the passengers on board, questions regarding his mental state should be asked.
-Robert King
Bob,
Some of our fellow buffs think we are crazy.
The article stated:
When he entered the monorail's first car, he saw the lid of a small control box was open.
And airports are supposed to be some of the most secure facilities around now .... yeah, right.
I could imagine a parent being on that monorail with a small, inquisitive child who happens to see a button and presses it (the "game boy generation") and stops the train ...
--Mark
Well, at least the button stops the train. Probably the safest outcome in the event of unauthorized operation. However, the joystick should be disabled.
IMO, because it was a plea bargain arrangement, I would not be surprised at all if he pried the panel cover open.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh come on, that case was suck bullshit. The guy saw an open box and pressed a button and then when the train stopped tried another lever and it went 15 feet. What human, when presented with a strange button, wouldn't press it. If the PA didn't want people pressing the buttons they should have locked the case. Sheech, it was just a little spur of the moment curiosity. It's not like the guy pried open the case and took the train for a joy ride.
>>>What human, when presented with a strange button, wouldn't press it.<<<
Gee, I see emergency brake cords every day. Maybe I should pull one just to see what happens.
>>>Sheech, it was just a little spur of the moment curiosity.<<<
That could have killed people.
Peace,
ANDEE
Brake cords are marked clearly. Yeesh, maybe he thought it was the water cooler!
And what gave this guy the idea that the controls were supposed to be used by passengers, hmmm? Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate to me.
And what gave this guy the idea that the controls were supposed to be used by passengers, hmmm?
In an emergency situation, I'd grab the controls of anything. This was clearly not an emergency, but there are no real reasons why controls cannot be operated by passengers.
AEM7
Killed someone I doubt the monorail reaches a top speed of are you ready 5 MPH I can see all the whiplash cases now.
I was about to say the same thing! That monorail, at least in auto mode, is so damn slow! No fun at all. And I'm sure that in manual mode you can push the joystick "forward" till you're blue in the face and the monorail still won't exceed a certain speed limit, such as 5mph.
Does that mean that we better not bend over to tie our shoes when you are around?
"Does that mean that we better not bend over to tie our shoes when you are around? "
Correct. Bending over is bad bour your back and stuff.
You should lift you foot to a bench or other rest to tie your shoe, or else you should squat down to tie it, but bending over? *OUCH*
ROTFLMFAO!
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Mike,
From your handle, you must be from NJ. You should know they have one of the strangest legal systems this side of Nazi Germany (every crime is a felony, the state does not even HAVE misdemeanors on the books). And while it may look like he got off more or less easy, I can assure you, they will put him through 3 years of hell while on NJ probation.
Ahh...It's nice to see someone who loves NJ as much as I do. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess that makes 2 of you.
Yes, New Jersey is truly a place I avoid at all costs! If I never set foot there again, it will be way too soon!
What happens if you saw a button that said this:
PRESS TO DIE
pressing of button has 10% chance of release Insta-DeathTM brand poison gas, 90% chance of giving you a quarter.
Insta-DeathTM: The antidote resistant poison gas!
YOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8~?
If the guy wants to operate trains so bad, give him a job on NYCT.
Now which line would be perfect punishment ?
Bill "Newkirk"
TS-GC shuttle!!!!!!!!
Whats a foamer?
Whats a foamer?
A fanatical railfan.
Whats a foamer?
A fanatical railfan.
It comes out of an old railroad lexicon, perhaps now forgotten.
A steam engine that was not steaming well, because it had foam forming in its boiler was very hard to work with.
Some raifans (rabid railfans) (foaming at the mouth) also make it hard to run your train.
Once upon a time I saw an engine sitting on the main line, it was switching some freight cars in town.
I stepped upt to the team platform and then onto a flat car to take some pictures of the locomotive. The crew patiently waited while I took my pictures, and stepped back onto the team platform...
AND THEN THE OTHER LOCOMOTIVE THAT DID NOT SEE, BUT WAS COUPLED TO THE CAR I HAD STOOD ON PULLED IT AWAY!
That is what Rabid Railfans do!
: ) Elias
That sounded pretty dangerous. Don't do that again.
¿¡¿
He put an A in front of IMG SRC and used some C tags ... had to go to the source and manually load the JPG. Remote control locomotives. Yipe. I can see some kid hotwiring one of those RC cars and having more fun than the guy at EWR ever dreamed of ... sure hope the guys at "Homeland security" are thinking about that possibility ... Run 8 can be a really really bad idea with nobody in the box.
OK, I hope I got it right now....
A Sign of the times!
And I hope my HTML improves. : )
Yep ... you were there on the second posting ... "A" for address with "HREF" makes a browser go to a link, the "IMG SRC" pulls in a picture. Looks like you got started on one, then went with the other in the same tag - that results in a management indecisijig. But ya got it the next time and this time.
Welcome to the craft! :)
Climbing on the Railroad Tracks.
You can now file for civil service exams on-line. STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
"After more than a year of work, the Department of Citywide Administrative Services is now able to accept exam applications online."
is the government always this slow at getting stuff done, even when it's trying its hardest?
"the system also requires candidates to create a user name and password."
What a unique idea! A website that requires user names and passwords? Who'd have thought of that?
Cruel fate! They musta waited until I was done filing.
Driving on Myrtle Ave. this morning and passed under the Bay Ridge line. Saw cars 6996, 7, 8, 9 and 7000.
6991-95 were here as of last Friday. 6996-7000 should be in either tonight, or tomorrow.
6991-95 is ready to go into testing with 6451-55. Saw them this evening at the East, getting ready for simulated 5 service.
6991-7000 are the first cars of Bombardier's option order to be delivered.
7671-75, 7681-85, 7691-95 are also here and should be at the East.
-Stef
What happened to all the previous car #'s in the Bombardier order that havent been delivered yet? When are they going to close the gap and arrive?
Those cars will arrive once the factory has implemented modfications to them. Numerous bugs that needed to be worked out result in these odd deliveries.
-Stef
Any idea as to when these deliveries might occur?
I have no clue. Only time will tell. The factory knows what is being shipped.
Can you list the modifications?
I there was a brake modification to the Bombardiers. Those who've been modified have blue stickers under their number plate. Not sure what the orange diamonds mean.
I saw 7676-80 at the East this evening.
By itself? It may have been coupled to 7671-75.
7661-70 may be on the road but I am unable to confirm this.
I have been told that 7686-90 had not arrived as of this writing.
-Stef
Yep. Saw it yesterday and today by itself at the East. But it probably will be leaving soon. Stef, do you know if 7651-60 are in service?
Yes they are.
-Stef
saw them today
Speaking of which, I have heard that there is going to be a second option order in numbers lower than the R62's which start at 1301. If so, what is it, and where will they be operating when in service?
There is no second option order of R-142s. A CHANGE ORDER for 150 additional cars (over and above the original order of 680 and the option of 200) was made in early 2001. As to the car numbers, things can change, but at this point the plan does not call for numbering cars below 1301.
David
UPCOMING HISTORICAL EXHIBIT:
"The Tubes: Hudson & Manhattan's Rails Under the Hudson, 1874 to the Present-day PATH"
[NOTE: We are looking for individuals, institutions, libraries or museums who possess rare and unique historical collections related to the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad for this show. Additionally, any contacts or leads to special H&M collections would be gratefully appreciated and acknowledged. Please see below for contact information.]
From January 19, 2003 through April 13, 2003, the Hoboken Historical Museum and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy will present "The Tubes: Hudson & Manhattan's Rails Under the Hudson, 1874 to the Present-day PATH," an exhibition at the Hoboken Historical Museum on the development of the Hudson Tunnels, from 1874 until their completion over 30 years later, and their inclusion into the PATH rapid transit system.
Along with text, photographs, diagrams, enlarged images from postcards, and artifacts from the collection of the Hoboken Historical Museum, "The Tubes" will feature rare artifacts borrowed from private collectors, early footage of the tunnels transferred to video and viewable on a Museum monitor, and a model of an H&M train that will move through the Museum space on a miniature track installed along its mezzanine. An eight-page, four-color brochure will accompany the exhibit.
The exhibit will be presented in wall panels and glass showcases in the Hoboken Historical Museum's fully-accessible, ground-floor level, 1,500-square-foot exhibition space in its permanent home in a portion of the former Bethlehem Steel Shipyard Machine Shop, 1301 Hudson Street, Hoboken.
Sections include: "Sandhogs & The Engineering Marvel," featuring numerous diagrams, photographs, and accompanying text on the subaqueous tunnel's 1874 conception by Colonel Dewitt Clinton Haskin, and its construction and completion in 1908 by resourceful engineers and an army of "sandhogs" under the leadership of William Gibbs McAdoo; "The Public Be Pleased," featuring old advertisements, photographs, and other paper ephemera on the ways in which Hudson & Manhattan's innovative philosophy was made manifest in the company's cars, stations, and the treatment of riders and employees, especially women; and "John Oakman, An Architect and His Legacy," featuring vintage and contemporary photographs of Oakman-designed structures, including the majestic brick Powerhouse in Jersey City and the Christopher Street PATH station in New York City, and efforts to preserve them.
Two scholarly, illustrated lectures will be provided to complement the exhibit. On Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 3 p.m., transportation historian, Brian J. Cudahy, author of "Rails Under the Mighty Hudson: the Story of the Hudson Tubes, the Pennsy Tunnels, and Manhattan Transfer" (Brattleboro, VT: Stephen Greene Press, 1975; reissued Bronx, NY: Fordham University Press, 2002) will provide an illustrated lecture on the building of the Hudson and Manhattan tunnels. Mr. Cudahy, who also authored "Cash, Tokens, and Transfers: A History of Urban Mass Transit in North America" (Fordham, 1990) will discuss the engineering advances that made the "tubes" and rapid transit possible, as well as the ways the tunnels have changed the lives of New Yorkers and New Jerseyeans by physically linking them as never before. A book signing will follow audience discussion.
And on Sunday, March 9, 2003 at 3 p.m., John Gomez, president of the preservation non-profit Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy, will provide a slide lecture on the history of Jersey City's 1906 Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which once literally gave life to the Hudson Tunnels, and current efforts not only to preserve this rare architectural reminder of America's Gilded and Industrial Ages, but to make it the innovative centerpiece of the cultural and commercial revival of Jersey City's waterfront.
Please contact the Hoboken Historical Museum to discuss specifics about, and arrange, collection loans.
Contact Holly Metz at:
Tel: 201.656.2240
Hoboken Historical Museum
PO Box 3296
Hoboken, NJ 07030
Email: hollymetz@earthlink.net
Or contact:
John Gomez
Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy
P.O. Box 68, Jersey City, NJ 07303-0068
Tel: 201.420.1885
Email: jclandmarks@earthlink.net
Web: www.jclandmarks.org
Have you looked at www.tmk.com?
Thanks for the reference. I've already responded to John's request and I'm in the process of cataloging my collection so he can pick and choose what items would be of most interest. I expect that the following will be part of the exhibit:
Full view
Title view
Detail view
You could also arrange to go up to the Shoreline Trolley Museum in East Haven, Connecticut where there is an old H&M Tube car undergoing volunteer restoration.
Perhaps by prior arrangement it can be brought out for you to photograph.
Really? I didn't know that a museum had an old H&M car! That's great!
TMNY has two H&M cars "awaiting restoration." Info here.
Yes we do. Black Car #503 and it is receiving some TLC. Join us
for Sub-Talk Day at Branford, Sunday 13th October and we'll be sure
you get to see it.
;-) Sparky
Have you contacted The NY Transit Museum? If not, E-mail me and I will give you some connections. They may be able to help.
Peace,
ANDEE
Story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-07-10/News_and_Views/Crime_File/a-157030.asp
During my last visit to NYC about three weeks ago, a kid wish a United Homeless Org card came on board a crowded LIRR train at Penn and started sticking the card in people's faces. I objected and told him that his choices were limited to exactly two: get off the train, or have a chat with a police officer. He threatened physical violence, but I stood my ground. Eventually, he left.
UHO....is a scam, I work in the area and have spoken with a few of them. Did you know that they get to keep 1/2 of their collections?
And that they trust the person to be honest in reporting what they collect?
Peace,
ANDEE
It is a scam - it's basically a means to try to legitimize panhandling and avoid paying taxes.
Before my 'new life' at TA, I was servicing the gameroom at WWF along with a batch of digital photo sticker machines at Old Navy stores in the area. I went past the UHO collection 'centers' almost everyday and never saw a homeless or hungry individual. Word was that the charter had been cancelled two years before and paperwork was just 'Xeroxed.' About time!!!! Anyone wanting a decent job should apply for 'Car Inspector.' CI Peter
When they started originally the name was differetn but when the guy got nailed he started UHO. Actually I think UHO is the old group and Food for the Homeless is the new name they use on tax stuff.
OK You buy the can, it used to cost $35 and you are supposed to hand over half the money. Obviously people buy the set up and then scram. The parent organization is supposed to provide information on fundraisers that take a cut, the old organization did not, I don't know what the new guys do. They are exempt from filing if the total take is under either 15K or 25K (I don't remember I have not done a tax return for a NP/NFP in a decade it might be much higher now).
The Gov traditionally lets these groups off easy their first 3-5 years in regards to record to let them set up their books. So you get charitable status for a few years without having to do much to prove it.
The UHO may be really pushing the boundaries of legitimacy, but then again there are many recognized national charities that spend most of the donation they collect on executive salaries and professional fundraisers.
True...the United Way comes to mind.
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL!
I wonder if UHO is the same one that is in front of the Barnes & Noble bookstore at Union Square. This one guy there is always so rude and insulting if you don't contribute.
The area around Penn and Herald Square are going downhill fast. Getting real seedy, especially around the Manhattan Mall going south.
There is one guy who rides the 1 train with a real intersting scam. He says he does part time work for the UHO because they were the only group to help him in his time of need. He says he was burned out of his apartment and while he had plenty of money, he couldn't find a place since the vacancy rate is so low. He claims the UHO put him up for 3 or 6 months in "Y" while he found a place. He also claims to take homeless people off the trains and give them voucher for 3-6 months in the Y. YEAH RIGHT!!!!!!!
Pull out your blade and give it to his stomach.
A tempting thought, but I don't want to stoop to his level.
Hello fellow railfans/subfans. This is Matt from Mount Vernon NY, but I am currently in North Carolina, stationed on Camp Geiger (Marine Corps Base). I have been looking, without much luck, for pictures of the Fleetwood Metro North train station, as this is the station i frequented the most. I wanted to put some metro north pictures on my laptop, and found all the pictures i wanted, except for the ones of my station! If anyone has some, or knows of a website with a good picture, please email me :)
Thank you very much.
Matt
Hello and Welocome, thank you for serving our country.
Have you looked at the pictures on THIS SITE
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you very much SubwaySurf. This site was of course the first place I looked :):) There are many photos, which are now on my computer, of course, but unfortunately, none of the Fleetwood train station. Thank you again :)
Semper Fidelis
Matt
Good Evening, This is Matt from Mount Vernon NY. I've been trying to find pictures of my train station, Fleetwood, but have come up empty. This site unfortunately doesnt have one. And neither does the MTA website. If anyone knows of a site that does, or has pictures of this station, please let me know. My email is MatteokofVulcan@aol.com.
Thank you.
Matt
PS - I would just take them myself, but I am in North Carolina right now, in the Marine Corps :)
I was walking to Yankee Stadium the other day and I saw a guy wearing a grey button down Hawaiian-style shirt with large subways, route signs and Bronx written all over it. Has anyone seen this shirt and have any idea where I could find it? If so, please e-mail me at cshaffer@broadwayvideo.com as I don't get to the board much these days. Thanks.
Chrtis C. Shaffer
If anyone knows the store, its location, as well as email,website address, or phone number please email me as well!
Just thought I'd take another shot at this. Has anyone seen or know where I could get the grey Hawaiian Style NY Subway shirt I saw the other day. Thanks.
Chris C. Shaffer
Apparently you are the only one that saw it.
I guess it was a USS (Unidentified Subway Shirt)
It may have been a one-of-a-kind item made by or for the person who was wearing it.
Does anybody know the exact schedule and what kind of equipment will be used for testing of the connection. I know it is this weekend.
After dealing with the blurr of Mapquest, someone at my job pointed out http://www.oasisnyc.com. The ariel photos are unreal. I love stuff like this, especially for viewing above ground trains. The photos are not brand new, but it's still fun. Check it out, if you like that kind of stuff. :)
Believe it or not, they can get even more detailed. I've used some at work where you can zoom down nough to see cracks in the road and oil stains in parking lot spaces, or even indentifly what type of cars in the lot. The photos are a *.hmr file type and they are HUGE. Usually around 40 MB large.
That's a good site though, thanks. I love this kind of stuff.
Oh, and another thing, this site is basically a GIS database, a good one. The US Census has something similar, but doesn't use arial photos and shows more detailed info, like who owns the land, taxes paid, etc.
Wow, that's great. I can even see my blue car in my backyard!
Rob:
Can I get the ones you're talking about? Is there a site or are they private or something?
Unfortunately no. These photos are taken by low flying planes for surveying purposes, mainly for transport design and other infrastructure projects, so it stays within the engineering firms and gov't. I work for the GA DOT, so that's how I get to use them. Even if you could get them, HMR files are only readable within a CAD program called Bentley Microstation, which costs about $4000 per copy, and other Bentley products.
Bummer. Oh well. That close, you can just take the pic yourself! I'll stick to Oasis. They're pretty damn good. Thanks anyway. :)
Ariel photos?
Like This one?
LOL: you should have went for Ariel the mermaid from Disney.
Or Mrs. Durant.
I always thought that photos taken from the air were AERIAL photos.
-Hank
Yeah, actually Ariel was in "The Little Mermaid".......
The original is Shakespeare's Ariel, from The Tempest.
Yes! Thanks for Sharon that with me.
These are zoomable *.jpg format. Wonderful! Some of them are rather older than others.
Wow! Thank you for letting us know about this site. My home was easy to find, (the rooftop ventilators were in their correct positions!) and the site encourages further exploration. It's too bad that a search for the Third Avenue El would only be in one's imagination! Fortunately, placing memories on those maps is a pleasure. This encourages one to find out how much of the beloved New York Central Putnam Division can still be seen from the air. A drive on the competing Saw Mill River Parkway today indicated that the pattern should be relatively clear.
Makes you want to extend the M all the way to Jackson Heights along the Connecting RR r.o.w.
According to the date on the Webpage, these aerial photos were taken in 1996. It's AMAZING how College Point has changed since then. 20th Ave. has been colonized beyond belief, and it looks like the Multiplex Cinemas and Toys-R-Us were built right on top of a pond!
And I guess those were all Redbirds I saw in Corona Yard. ^_^
Wow ... that is a GREAT site .. thanks for the link!
--Mark
Thanks for the link. I was in the area of the old Evergreen branch recently but I still had questions as to what the route looked like today. I used the link and answered all my questions. A lot of the route is still just alleys for parking. I always wanted to know where exactly did the branch connect with the Bay Ridge line. It is right across from the point where the L line has its portal between Wilson and Halsey stations. Appears to have only met the line in a southern direction the way the factories are shaped around the track.
Transportation Securiity Administration...
Does this replace the FAA, the FRA, the FHA and the DOT or does it merely supplement it?
Peace,
ANDEE
It just supplement it. Most notiable are the people that screen passengers at checkpoints at the nation's airport.
Maybe you were expecting more beekies ridong the subway?
J.S.A.....Juice Security Administration.....preserving the sancity of the third rail. CI Peter
The FAA, FRA, and the FHA are part of DOT.
Furthermore, TSA is scheduled to go to the new Department of Homeland Security with INS, Customs, and Coast Guard.
Michael
Washington, DC
When I flew from West Palm Beach to Islip via Baltimore two weeks ago, the security people at BWI wore TSA uniforms, while those at PBI and ISP still wore the uniforms of private security services. I would imagine that most of the TSA people at BWI used to work for whatever private service had the contract and just switched to the TSA following the changeover.
If you ask me, it's just another government bureaucracy. There really was nothing wrong with private-firm airport security.
It's the same people with new uniforms, so nothing has changed at all.
It's the same people with new uniforms, so nothing has changed at all
Except that poorly performing employees will be much harder to dismiss.
And they may actually get some training and be paid a fair wage, so they may actually be motived and do a good job!
And they [airport security screeners] may actually get some training and be paid a fair wage, so they may actually be motived and do a good job!
And who says the private screeners haven't been doing a good job? Their track record has been excellent. U.S. commercial aviation has been almost completely free of incidents ever since security screening began in the early 1970's.
Oh, and September 11th is not an exception. As best can be determined, all of the hijackers were carrying weapons - box cutters and small knives - that were allowed aboard airplanes as per FAA regulations.
Their track record has been excellent. U.S. commercial aviation has been almost completely free of incidents ever since security screening began in the early 1970's.
There are special guards on all of the Bronx stations to keep LIONS and BEARS that live in the ZOO from boarding subway trains. AND since 1970 not ONE LION has ever tired to baord the subway there.... SO IT MUST BE WORKING!
Ah Er... Hello.... Times have changed, and now terrorists *are* trying to board planes. Temember that th70s breed of hijackers WERE NOT TERRORISTS!, they were deranged kooks trying to hijack a plane for money or for political asylum in CUBA probably because we aso thried to discharge too many people from the Stae Asylums in those days.
Todays terrorists are soldiers without boarders or flag, trying what they might to disrupt and destroy our society. They have no interest in their personal survival, only in their ideological goals. What scared away the former will not prevent the latter.
So Yes... Security is worth doing, and it is worth doing well. Yes private security companies CAN DO A MUCH BETTER JOB than the government can in this kind of security IF AND ONLY IF the expend the resources necessary to do it, and this can only happen when those contracting the service are no longer interested in the bottom line lowest bid possible.
Then beyond a certain point, there are security steps that only the government can undertake, but these may well be overkill for the task at hand.
Whatever sort of guards are used, they need to be professional, and highly skilled, not quick to pull out the nightsticks or punches, not too quick to do body searches, yet not too bashful to not do them either. Yes Arabs and Arab men will and perhaps ought to be looked at more closely. But you cannot also check out little old ladies with a fine toothed come just in order to be fair, and politically correct and egalitarian random so as not to offend the sensibilities of thoes that are statistically higer risk groups of people.
BTW: The stopped one little old lady for having knitting needles with her on a flight. Apparently they thought she was going to make an Afgan.
Elias
Well, heck. I stand by my view that most people are worrrying way too much about the whole terrorism thing. Here is an article that, in my view, makes a pretty good case that September 11th was basically the death knell of the al-Qaeda movement rather than the opening salvo in a long war. It's funny, sometimes people on the "other side" (note the source of this article) can see things we cannot.
Yeah, right. The paper seems a little biased, don't you think? Everything is censured in Saudi Arabia, EVERYTHING!!! S.A. is a nation that is trying to be our friend yet stab us in the back when we're not looking. 15 of the terrorists on 9/11 are from S.A. When the President had his little barbeque with the Saudi Prince I couldn't help thinking of Neville Chamberlain in Munich. Peace in our time.
I'm certainly not going to deny that Saudi Arabia has media censorship, but nonetheless some of the points made in that article sound quite convincing. America was complacent ("terrorism can't happen here") and was unwilling to strike back (Bill Clinton's idea of retailiation would be to fire a $10 million cruise missile - the coward's weapon par excellence - at an empty tent).
And bu$h's fearmongering to keep republican poll numbers up rings true also but the Saudis want the civilized world to fall under Arab control which would be the end of freedom in the world. America MUST deal with this problem DEFINITIVELY.
I went to visit my old street in Southwest Philly , and caught up with some old neighbors, one who has recently retired from SEPTA working out of Elmwood, I didn't get to talk to him, but I did get to talk to his wife who told me that SEPTA was hiring Light Rail operators as well as bus operators, (she remembered I was a mark, and I told her I still am) Does anyone out there know the deal? I'm seriously considering sending a resume to 1234! Thanks for any info!
Oh, how I wish I could quit my job as a CAD Designer and drive a trolley or bus!
The problem is it's too far from home ,and I wouldn't make enough
$$$$. Oh, well.....
Chuck Greene
Exton, Pa. (30 miles West of Philly)
Isn't SEPTA always hiring? I hear they have the lowest rates in the regional rail division. All their engineers eventually end up on NJTransit or Amtrak.
AEM7
SEPTA has a very serious shortage of transit operators (bus and light rail) despite the relatively high pay ($20 +/hour) for the positions. I'm not quite sure why this is - maybe the work environment, hours, clientele? At any rate, I've noticed ads in Metro, the Inquirer, and other places looking for drivers. I do know it requires a CDL and I'm not sure SEPTA will train you to get this. Since the last union contract, it even has part-time positions available.
I can't think of a better way to pay your way through 4 years of Penn....be a part-time trolley operator.
yea alot of major transit is hiring. i took a exam for both MTA NYCT for Trackworker, and i passed Metro North's Trackworker exam. i have to go to the main office next wednesday for my 9am interview appointment. this could be the gateway to what i have always wanted!
Hmm... If I can't find a job with an architecture firm soon, this might be an avenue to consider. I wonder how hard it would be to get an express run on the Broad Street Subway. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
You guys thinking about taking these jobs are lucky that you're able to do that - think of the 10% of the male population that's had their career hopes in numerous fields (transit, police, military, pilot etc.) dashed because of those &^%$ colourblindness tests!!!!
-Robert King
Hmm... Drexel is right next door, I'll have to look into that. Right now I'm about 1-1/2 pr 2 years short of the driving requirement for the job. I would love to drive LRVs, or even busses for a living, especially if they give a railpass. Think they'd overlook that little discrepancy (the only about 1.5 years experience)? Or should I just bide my time at a supermarket? BTW, do you need a CDL to drive a bus, subway, lrv? And would septa provide the training, or would I need to?
Sure as hell beats working at Genaurdis for the next 5 years!
Thanks
Does anyone know:
How many R62 consists run on the #7 line right now?
Approixmately when the last redbirds will operate on the #7?
Thank you to all who take the time to answer.
Well, there are no R62s on the 7, u actually meant R62As, and there are at least 6-9 sets running. Get them Redbirds now, while they're still red hot (and rusting, lol)...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Third Avenue El"
It's R-62 AND R-62A.
Nope...just R-62A. Outside of a few trips in 1984 while the cars were in acceptance testing, R-62s have NEVER run on the #7.
David
Nope, Nothing but R-62A on the 7 Line.
It will be YEARS before the last redbirds run on the #7 line. I'd say the last redbirds will run in 2004, or later. As far as I know, there are only 5 consists of 62's on the 7 line. That's why I always get nervous working that line, even though it's right down the road from my house. I don't like the redbirds on that line, because the brakes take alot of getting used to. If I could work that line everyday, or even two or three times a week, I think I would like it, because I'd learn how to use those brakes better.
Oh, and by the way, to all the people who argue over or emphasize the difference between an R 62 vs. R 62A, I have to tell you, you're the only ones who do so. The truth is, few if any employees make the distinction between the two. We just say "62's".
What I'll never understand is this. Why do the same super-buffs call a redbird a redbird, instead of calling them by their proper classifications (R29, R33, R 36)?
Because it near immpossable to tell them apart from the outside (maybe easier on the inside but still hard). We don't carry books with roster numbers in them when we railfan.
BS...you can tell a 68 from a 68A can't you. W/O looking at the numbers.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can.
That's just scary.
So can I (and it's not scary; two of the cosmetic differences are very noticeable), but I don't know of any way (aside from memorizing numbers) to tell an R-26 from an R-28 from an R-29, and it doesn't help that all three run on the same line.
Personally, I agree with you. I hate the generic term, Redbirds.
Peace,
ANDEE
Let's clarify how many R62A sets are on the 7 now shall we:
Here are the NORTH MOTORS ONLY:
There's 1 all single consist:
2149-1
1680-2
1685-3
1695-4
1696-5
1705-6
1706-7
1715-8
1686-1690 Their whereabouts are unknown.
2096-2155 are the singles on the 7.
1676-1715 are the Transverse sets.
Let's do the Math:
2096-2155 = 60 singles +
1676-1715 = 40 cars
= 100 cars / 11 car train = 9 trains with a car left over.
I saw 7 out of these 9 R62A sets on the road today. In fact I rode 1 of them. See Below.
#1697 7 Flushing Local
The question speaks for itself. {Yes I have gone through previous threads, they only seem to mention oddball trains which may or may not be on there, but I believe it is much more likely today to see an R142 on the 5 line than within the past three months or so.}
One hundred and fourty Bombardier R142s now running the rails of the #5 line with another twenty coming about before the end of the week.
Repent Ye Sinners for the End is Near. Ten cars per week anticipated until September. CI Peter
"Repent ye sinners?" You mean there is no joy in heaven for having ridden the Red Birds?
THE END IS NEAR! THE END IS NEAR! REPENT YE SINNERS! Of course there is joy riding the Redbirds but not like when I was a kid and they used to 'rock and roll' slamming down the express tracks from 14th Street to City Hall. So a supervisor walks up to me while waiting for some Redbird undercar parts and says, 'Some don't believe in an afterlife. If there is and you die while you're working as a Car Inspector, you will live througout Eternity as a Car Inspector.' Maybe that's not so bad as long as I don't have Redbird undercar to do anymore. Of course, my assignment is 'troubles' with little to do in the early hours and loaded at the end of the day...I never sit down and am always on my feet and they hurt from ill-fitting safety shoes. #5 has 140 R142 cars now, 30 more should be delivered by the end of the week, with the vendor not being able to keep up with the demand. THE SKY IS FALLING! Three R142 trainsets coming in for inspection #5 line next week. CI Peter
When the 2 train is in Manhattan, the announcements label it as a "2 express train" as opposed to a simple "2 train" in Brooklyn and Bronx. With the 6 train first of all being both a local and an express, and also with the express running local in Manhattan, how do announcments operate, are all 6 trains just the "6 train" or do they mention local or express as on the 2 line in Manhattan.
"This is a Bronx-bound 6 train. The next stop is 68th Street-Hunter College," whether it's a Pelham Express or a Parkchester Local.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Budd R32 GOH"
>>This is a Bronx-bound 6 train. The next stop is 68th Street-Hunter College," whether it's a Pelham Express or a Parkchester Local. <<
But once it gets into the Bronx then the announcement may change to:
"This is a Bronx-bound 6 Express train. The next stop is Hunts Point Avenue".
It doesn't say "Pelham Bay Park bound. . ."?
You're right but only when it gets to the Bronx.
Spiderman has scenes of the 7 Line's Queens Blvd Viaduct. IOn one such scene, you can see the Subway Series Redbirds.
Already an old movie, eh?
The very first scene in the movie features the 7 and its Redbirds. The World Series cars are no more, sad to say.:(
I think only a pair of WS cars got scrapped. The reat are still running.
I love the Queens street scenes in the movie. Especially the 7 train.
:-) Andrew
I was at Penn Station today and yesterday. I noticed that when a train arrival was announced, everyone in the upper level Amtrak councourse lines up at the gate and has to go single file down to the train after showing an Amtrak person their ticket. BUT, I went down to an area of the lower level that has stairs that lead to the Amtrak platforms, which I think might be called the "Exit Concourse," and there was no one down there boarding. Are these stairs really only for exiting Amtrak trains, or can you board there too? I'm just wondering if I can beat the line and get on to the platfrom from the lower level, or will I get in trouble if I try to board that way? (I want to get a window seat on an Acela Regional train on Friday afternoon and, this being my first time, I don't know how crowded the train will be) I asked the guy at the Info Booth in that big high circle ceiling room on the upper level what the diff was between the upper and lower level staircases and he just said "it is easier to board the train from the upper level." I have no idea what that means because if it is allowed, it seems to me it is a lot easier to board from the lower level. Ok, sorry for rambling, but if you have any insights about this I would really appreciate hearing from you. Thanks.
You can get to the platform from the lower level. The upper level has escalators leading down to the platform if I remember correctly, which is probably why it's "easier".
Thanks. Yeah, sorry, I should have been more clear. I know you can physically get to the platform from the lower level stairs, but I'm wondering if you are "allowed" to board the train if you enter the platform from the lower level. Will the doors of the train be open and I just walk right on, or is there a specific line to get on the train that flows from the upper level down the escalator and onto the train? With all the new security precautions, I'm thinking they may have the boarding process working a certain way and I don't want to mess with it. I'm really getting too worked up about this. I'll just board the normal way on Friday.
The doors right where you get on the platform might not be open, but you can walk down the platform. If I remember correctly, there is no line, instead conductors stand on the platform and direct you to the correct car.
However, I agree that with the new security precautions, it may be easier to just follow the rules. Try to get to the escalator first so you get in the train early and get your window seat.
If the train is not originating in Penn Station, why not keep an eye on the Arrival Board? The track is usually posted there before it shows up on the big board. That's how I used to get to be first in line on my way back to Boston.
My only problem was that I never knew whether we would be loading from the east or west escalators.
Where is the arrival board? This is different from the "big board?"
The arrival "board" is a TV monitor located in the rear of the Amtrak waiting area.
Sometimes I turn on my scanner and hear Amtrak operations state the track number. Other times, I'm on the lower level and wait for the track number to show up on the departure board. Other methods are to ask people getting off a train where they got on. Last Monday, my train originated in Springfield, MA. Nobody mentioned a stop on that line so I knew I had the wrong train. Another way to find out is to observe red cap activity. I asked somebody walking with a red cap for the train they were getting on and they said "Baltimore." I knew that was my train to Washington. I even used the elevator to get to the tracks.
Michael
Washington, DC
Thanks for the tips! Very helpful!
I've been doing this for a long time. Just watch the arrivals board (on the small monitors near the northwest and soutwest staircases to the street), and when you see the arrival track posted, go down via the lower mezzanine. Just be patient as arriving passenger "detrain" (is that a real word?), and then board to find a good seat.
Oh, and double-check to ensure it's the right train. Sometimes there are last minute changes. Fortunately the Acela Express scrolls the train number on the LCD signs.
On reserved trains, you cannot sneak down there because there will be an AMTRAK worker inspecting your ticket which is required at the upper level. I know where you are talking about, the stairwells on the LL between the TL (track level) and the ML (Main Level) [this is how Penn Sta. characterizes its levels]
The portion from tracks 1-12 were renovated by NJT and from Track 13 starts the LIRR "design" of the rest of the station.
Notice the stairwells and the entrances at the LL are not as "luxurious" as the newly renovated ones on the ML.
I guess AMTRAK wants to put a good impression on customers from when you line up to board down the stairwells to Point B on your trip.
Not that New York wasn't great then...still a lot of varied and interesting subway/el and commuter equipment. But I got to love Chicago: I did miss the "woods" on the L and the Chicago Aurora and Elgin interurban, which ran ito the loop On the Garfield L. Still had the steel 4000's in two varieties and the dandy North Shore interurban which came into the city over the L.There was the South Shore and the old IC; Intercit trains of many roads came into several depots, including Grand Central and Dearborn now gone. Call your shots for whose road's diesels you'd like to see, many makers too. A lot more fascinating than todays Generic Amtraks, ot to mention all the original roads' commuter services now Metra, likewise generic! Chicago still has the only elevated train ride into the city center in an Americancity! Don't miss it, especially at night.
Miami has an elevated in downtown, but pickiness aside, Chicago's is a much better ride!
Mark
I'll second that in a New York minute. Any mention of the Chicago Aurora & Elgin gives me spasms of rapture. Hard to believe that passenger service has been gone for over 45 years (July 3, 1957)! Add to the mix open-platform cars on Ravenswood, red Pullman streetcars, massive sleek PCCs, and the Electroliner. I miss it all every day.
I'm too young to remember riding the CA&E into the Loop or even to Forest Park, but I'm still a big fan. The CA&E is a real favorite of mine for a number of reasons, but I particularly like the rolling stock. Where else could you ride a 50-year old wooden interurban car at 75mph into the 1950's? Fortunately, I've had that experience - I work on the CA&E cars at IRM, so I do have a connection of sorts with the railway. I still like riding into Chicago on the "L" and find it hard to imagine living more than 5 miles from some sort of passenger rail service, but boy, what I would give for a one-seat ride on a third rail car from the Fox River into the Loop!
Frank Hicks
<< what I would give for a one-seat ride on a third rail car from the Fox River into the Loop! >>
Convince the board to build the bridge, Frank, and it will become reality!
Oh, god. :-)
Yes, then all we need is another 20 miles of ROW to Elgin... to convince the Illinois Prairie Path Corporation to end its own existence by selling us its entire right-of-way to Maywood... buying out the businesses which have built over the ROW in Maywood itself... building 40 miles of third-rail-equipped track... fixing up our cars so that we can provide service with a motley collection of wood interurbans, 4000's and 6000's... and convincing the CTA to let us run into the Loop via the subway.
Sounds good to me!!!
Frank Hicks
I've enjoyed all the replies to my original post; wasn't aware the Miamai modernistic el went downtown but nice to know; I did get to ride my preferred North Shore cars, the old heavyweights of course..to me takng the electrolner was like riding an R10 if I knew an R1-9 was coming [NYC this is] so never did ride one. I do wish I hadn't missed the "Roarin Elgin" and the woodies on the L but had my turn at them in NYC. My final comment: what do you mean use the subway to get into the loop? You've gone this far put the Garfield L back up! Haha.All in fun.BTW the lower case L at the end of my handle is "el" spelled Chicago style to honor that system.
I suppose I should stick up for my hometown and mention that Seattles monorail is an elevated railroad in a sense, and that it runs into the heart of the city and back, if you could consider around 2 or so miles 'to the heart of the city.' But Seattle aint that big, so I suppose it could be. I understand that at night it is a beautiful ride in the mainly glass walled cars, and that Downtown, the EMP, and the space needle make for a beautiful ride. Unfortunately last summer when I was out there my rides both occured in broad daylight.
Maybe it would be better to say that Chicago and Miami and the only U.S. cities that have elevateds running to and from downtown. This would distinguish them from Seattle with its downtown monorail and Detroit with its downtown people mover. Also, I say "U.S. cities" because I think Bangkok has elevated downtown service, too.
Mark
> Maybe it would be better to say that Chicago and Miami
> and the only U.S. cities that have elevateds running to
> and from downtown. This would distinguish them from Seattle
> with its downtown monorail and Detroit with its downtown
> people mover.
If people movers count as els, Jacksonville can be added to the list. And, as far as that goes, downtown Miami has its own people mover, separate from but connecting with the rapid transit line.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
You are right about Bangkok. Tokyo and Osaka also have elevated trains looping the downtown, and is operated by JR East (Tokyo) and JR West (Osaka). Berlin has a S-Bahn that runs on an 100+year old Viaduct thru downtown.
These recent posts on this topic confirm a saying Amtrak used in the late 70's..even if Amtrak didn't turn out to be the one who proved it, excpet in NEC. Sounds like tracks are definitely in for urban areas worldwide. BTW I rode some Paris Metro lines once and surprisingly surfaced briefly onto a gorgeous el in what appeared to be a downtown type area...came out to an elevated station at "Stalingrad" and went back underground.
Frank, you took a little ribbing on northshoreline.com. I guess we are on both of these boards.
"what I would give for a one-seat ride on a third rail car from the Fox River into the Loop!"
It's my most cherished memory. The highlight of my year as a child was a Christmas-time to trip to Chicago from Elgin on the Third Rail, organized by my mother. We usually took the morning Cannonball, ending up at Canal Street about an hour later. Jet planes can't exceed the speed of Third Rail trains, in my estimation. At Canal, we changed for an "L" train to Randolph & Wells, Marshall Field's, the best store in the world.
Then a visit to the toy department on the 4th floor, for an operating model train display. After that, lunch in the Walnut Room under the Great Tree, the high point being a ice cream Santa.
In the late afternoon, another short "L" ride back to Quincy & Wells, with direct connections to the CA&E Wells Street Terminal, and another exciting Third Rail ride back to Elgin.
Correction: Randolph & WABASH.
George, that trip sounds great... my memories of electric railways mainly consist of auto rides to various museums to look at preserved cars! I like riding Metra and CTA, but it's nothing like riding the stuff out at IRM. I've worked there for years, but I still pause and look whenever a streetcar goes by!
Yeah, I hover around northshoreline.com... too bad there isn't a CA&E website! Of course, it probably wouldn't get enough hits to support a message board - for some reason the North Shore is just about the most popular interurban line in American history. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :-)
Frank Hicks
It's a very good thing that most of us are on the side of good, cause Ol' Scratch would be collecting a lot of souls to bring back all the wonderful stuff that has gone away.
I was lucky enough to ride the North Shore in 1962. Railfan seat on an ElectroLiner to Milwaukee. Heaven on flanged wheels.
It's been 38 years (39 on 11/3/2002) since a streetcar ran on Belair Road. I know it as a fact. I was on the last car on both 8 and 15 on that cold November night. I watched the cars get dragged out of the car houses the following August - all to scrap except one - 7407. She lives today in the City she served for 19 years.
I can still drive down the hill on Erdman Avenue approaching Belair Road - and it still looks wrong!
For an electric railway/streetcar fan, 1963 was a very bad year. We lost the North Shore in January, Los Angeles in March and Baltimore in November.
From 1959 on we seemed to be going from one wake to another. The one salvation was the musuem movement. Things were being saved, and if we wanted the cars to survive, that's where we had to go.
Keep the faith.
If there was a switch right before Rockerfeller Center that would all D trains to swtich over to the local track or after then we could set up a nice subway pattern.
D- 205 Street to 2nd Avenue, CPW Express, 6th Avenue Local
B- Bedford Park Boulevard or 145 Street to 34 Street, CPW Local
V- 179 Street to 34 Street, Queens Boulevard Local
Its one of the more stupid plans but give it a chance
They should just build platforms on the express track at 14th and 23rd, because the 6th Ave Express as it stands is a joke.
While it is true that the 6th Ave line is not much of an express route (thinking of normal service when the Manhattan Bridge is open), The point of the express tracks is not so much an express route, but to increase the tph that can run on the line. A four track line can handle double the traffic, as if it were just a two track line. You would not want to get rid of the express tracks on the 6th AVe line. Even though it isn't much of an express route, they serve their purpose, at least when the Manhattan Bridge is open.
You bring up a good point, but it makes me bring up another question, (and switching lines a sec)
When the train lines finally reached Coney Is,I assume there was a lot of service, hence, building the Sea Beach line and the "NX route. Could the express tracks serve a purpose now? (beside running up more train from Coney Is yard when needed)
When the train lines finally reached Coney Is,I assume there was a lot of service, hence, building the Sea Beach line and the "NX route. Could the express tracks serve a purpose now? (beside running up more train from Coney Is yard when needed)
In Manhattan, four track lines are very useful, as you have a lot of ridership. On lines such as the Sea Beach, presently you really don't need that extra capacity. Even if they added some "express Stations" to the Sea Beach, and you would have some extra stops, so that it is of use to more than just Coney Island riders, I don't know if there are enough people to warrant that. The West End is set up for express service, and has some intermediate stations on the express, but they don't seem to need it there either, and there all they would have to do is start running the trains, all the infastructurre is there. On the Sea Beach even if they thought about using the express tracks, they would have to add some intermediate express stations to make it useful. Currently there is not enough call for a super express from just Coney Island.
What exactly is the point of doing that? It doesn't really accomplish anything.
I'm neither approving or disapproving of the proposed plan but one thing it accomplishes is people from the Bronx and CPW line have a direct train to Houston St and the Lower East Side, instead of having all Bronx/CPW trains cut at 34th St and having the two Queens trains go on south.
And, all the D and V trains cross in front of each other. F and V trains come often enough that the people coming from CPW can transfer.
If you did the switch south of 50th St., then you'd significantly reduce capacity on the 6th Ave line, because B and D trains would take up capacity on both the express and local tracks, reducing the whole capacity of 6th Ave way below its current 60 tph.
The right way to do it would be north of 50th St. as a flying crossover, so that Bs and Ds can go local if you choose, without interfering with (say) Fs that now go express. This would add a lot of flexibility without decreasing capacity.
HOWEVER, doing the switch north of 50th as a flying crossover would involve a lot of construction, and all it would gain would be some moderate additional flexibility. Nice idea, but probably not worth the money.
One switch idea that would have eliminated the Grand Street Shuttle and would have probably helped 6th Ave service to some degree is constructing a crossover switch just north of Grand. Under this scenario both B and D trains could have run express between 34th and West 4th and terminated at Grand. As I have stated before, I don't understand why the MTA never constructed this crossover.
"As I have stated before, I don't understand why the MTA never constructed this crossover."
They didn't see the possibility that the community around Grand Street would eventual develop political clout and might actually get listened to by our esteemed vote-seeking governor.
They'll probably spend more money on additional M service than it would have cost to build the switch (though there would have been pressure for that service even with B and D service to Grand St).
NOT...
The IND was built so that trains would not cros in fron of one another. As was stated above, the purpose of the 6th Ave exp is to increase capacity.
The reason the (B) and (D) are express and the (F) and (V) are local is so that they do not cross in front of each other.
Therefore the reason (B) and (D) must go Bridge and (F) and (V) must not is again the cross over problem.
The only INTERESTING change that can and SHOULD be made is for the (V) to switch to the 8th Ave Local south of West 4th, and terminate at Chambers while the (E) (or swap (C) and (E) at this point)swithches to the 6th Avenue Local (to Second Avenue or maybe to CHURCH via CULVER!!!!) giving better access to these routes from the opposite Avenues, and the configurations of IND tracks post W4 *does* permit this without having tains cut each other off at the points.
Elias
By the way, why wasn't that track map updated with the V Line?
- Lyle Goldman
Peter Dougherty is looking for volunteers to update the track maps. It's labor-intensive.
A quick question about the Woodhaven Station. The name tablets at the station say, "Woodhaven Blvd - Slattery Plaza" What exactly was "Slattery Plaza"? I assume it was something that was at the Queens Center site before Queens Center.
How dumb, obviously I meant the Woodhaven Blvd station
Before Queens Center Mall was the Queens Center Mall there used to be Fairyland. A small children's amusement park. It wasn't small when I used to go there. But that's another topic! Slattery Park was somewhere around the intersection of Queens Blvd and Woodhaven Blvd. I think it also had something to do with Hoffman Drive that ran behind St John's Hospital.
Hoffman Blvd was the original name for Queens Blvd. When Hoffman Blvd was upgraded and widened shortly after the construction of the Queensborough Bridge, it was rerouted in this area, leaving Hoffman Drive as the original route.
Makes sense. Was Hoffman the name of the entire road that became Queens Blvd? Or was there several roads that became Queens Blvd?
In Long Island City it was called Thomson Avenue, in the Town of Newtown it was Hoffman Blvd.
wow, i didnt kno that
Could that be the old name for the shopping center?
I don't know. I don't know what was at the Queens Center site before Queens Center. I assume "Slattery Plaza" in the station name refers to something that was there when the station was built, as the mosaics are original. The QB line when it was built went through some fairly "rural" areas when it was built.
I think Slattery Plaza would refer to the actual intersection of Woodhaven, Queens and Horace Harding Blvds.
Somewhere around there. Maybe that was before the Long Island Expressway was built.
No, I mean the actual intersection, like Times Square refers to the intersection of 7th Avenue and Broadway.
I had meant the entire triangle area of Queens Blvd, Woodhaven Blvd and Horace Harding Blvd. All before the LIE came into the neighborhood.
That makes sense.
I don't know what was at the Queens Center site before Queens Center.
Fairyland - a small amusement park.
So where does the "Slattery Plaza" fit in with this? I the amusement park was there before Queens Center, Was this "Slattery Plaza" there before that?
from the usma
John Rodolph Slattery graduated 5th in the Class of 1900. Born in Athens, OH, on 31 Jan 1877, he was appointed to the Academy by Charles P. Taft, brother of President William Howard Taft.
After graduation, Slattery was assigned to the Philippines to work on bridges and roads—a typical beginning for an engineer. The next few years found him living in Honolulu, HI; Jacksonville, FL; and Vicksburg, MS, in charge of flood control. He remained in Vicksburg for several years and worked on the Flood of 1916. He then served in France as the Chief Engineer of the Seventh Army Corps until 1919.
One of his contributions was the development of a project on the upper Hudson River known as the Port of Albany. After it was completed, oceangoing vessels could travel 150 miles inland from New York City. While working on the project, Slattery was noticed by John Delaney, Dock Commissioner of New York City, who was impressed with Slattery’s work and wanted him to serve as one of Delaney’s chief aids on the new system of transportation in New York, the subway system. In an unusual move, the Army granted Slattery a year’s leave of absence so he could work on the subway system. At the end of that year, Slattery had served 25 years and wanted to retire, but the Secretary of War would not allow it. Dissatisfied with the decision, Slattery resigned in 1925 and became the Deputy Chief Engineer of the Board of Transportation, in charge of such projects as the tunnels to Queens and Staten Island and the New York Central Railroad.
Slattery earned a master of arts from Ohio University. He was a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers and past president of the Society’s New York section, American Military Engineers and the Municipal Engineers. He also received accolades from the mayor of New York for his work. The intersection of Queens and Woodhaven Boulevards in Queens, NY, is named Slattery Plaza in his honor.
He suffered a heart attack while working in 1932 and died several days later in Jackson Heights, NY, at the age of 55
Wow, now that was an answer!
Thank you. So I was right about it being the intersection, like Times Square.
Sounds like it should've been located on Fire Island instead ;-)
I lived a few block from there when I was a kid. I remember Queens Ctr being built. Formerly, there was Fairyland and a supermarket.
I never knew what slattery plaza was.
I had always had the impression Slattery Plaza was more or less forgotten in the past 30 years.
It was, except for the mosaics in the station, which are landmarked I believe.
Just like the stations that have names that haven't existed for almost 80 years. Yet the names are still in the name of the station. eg. Hudson, Boyd, Oxford, Greenwood, Rawson, Lowery, Bliss, Lincoln, Fisk, Alburtis and so on.
Rawson, Lowery, Bliss and Alburtis are gone from the signs.
In the case of 33rd, 40th and 46th, there is at least one sign in each of those stations with the old name, it's hung on the canopy instead of the wall I believe.
103rd Street-Corona Plaza hasn't had the name Alburtis in decades.
Hudson, Boyd, Oxford, Greenwood, Rawson, Lowery, Bliss, Lincoln, Fisk, Alburtis
Okay, I know where Rawson, Lowery, Bliss, Lincoln, Fisk and Alburtis all are, but where the BLEEP are Hudson, Boyd and Oxford?
A line. 80 St., 88 St. and 104 St. respectfully. Don't forget 111 St. was also known as Greenwood. I didn't know where Alburtis was.
As I've mentioned, 104th Street in Corona was Alburtis Avenue (OK, I didn't mention that). 103rd Street on the 7 used to be called that (I did mention that). Does nobody read my posts?
Does nobody read my posts?
I for one usually read your posts - although our economic points of view differ just slightly, your posts tend to be factually and historically accurate (and you're not going to start claiming that there's a "lost" station beyond 205th Street on the D, complete with Thomas the Tank Engine, Alice in Wonderland and the Wizard of Oz...).
Yes, I did read your post. I didn't know that before I read it. Should have stated that in my post but I didn't know I had to. It hasn't been used in years which is why I wasn't aware of it. I put it in my post to relate to British James that I didn't know where a particular station name was either.
I'm not blaming you for any indiscretions, I just pointed out that I had originally posted the information. A few times recently I posted information only to have other people ask the same question again.
Also, you're asking again was a good thing. Otherwise I would never have posted that Alburtis was 104th and not 103rd.
I just pointed out that I had originally posted the information. A few times recently I posted information only to have other people ask the same question again.
Unless someone has a trremendous amount of time on their hands, I doubt everyone can keep up with everything that is ever posted, or read everything. Things are bound to be missed. Posts are bound to be repeated, and questions reasked. There is no way to read everything.
Also, you're asking again was a good thing. Otherwise I would never have posted that Alburtis was 104th and not 103rd.
Did 103rd have a name too?
Most of the numbered streets in Queens had real names like Brooklyn at one time. Unfortunately, they decided to number all the streets, so Queens lost most of it's historical names.
The old names for 80th St. (Hudson), 88th St.(Boyd), 104th (Oxford) and 111th St. (Greenwood). The Liberty Ave extension of the Fulton el was opened in 1915, shortly before the streets here were changed from names to numbers. That's why the same stations along Jamaica Ave. were never known by the street names, because they opened 2 years later.
IIRC there was a supermarket on the north side of the property. Called Parade (something).
Slattery Plaza Queens: The Mega Intersection Of 12 Lane Queens Blvd Of Death, 12 Lane Horace Harding Blvd, Woodhaven Blvd, Elliot Avenue & 59 Avenue.
How many lanes would the Long Island Expressway be over there? Seems like they're building more roadway over there.
Last time I went through, not counting construction closures, there were 10 lanes, five in each direction. Three each for the main roadways, and a pair for each set of 'local' lanes.
-Hank
I was looking at an old subway map of the JFK express like and noticed how nice it must have been to have such a quick ride from the Rockaway area to Manhattan. This got me wondering. Why doesn't the TA stop this skip-stop stuff on the A/C line and make the A an express from Euclid into Manhattan? Or atleast have a few diamond A's going express thru Brooklyn?
Doesn't the A run express through Brooklyn already?
Yes, it does.
Peace,
ANDEE
From Hoyt Schermerhorn, the 8th Avenue branches into Express and Local tracks, the A runs:
Hoyt Schermerhorn
Nostrand Avenue
Utica Avenue*
Broadway Junction
Euclid Avenue where the C terminates and the A takes over all the stops
* if u ever get out here, look at this station well, its humongous. Utica was built with a provision for the Utica line that would have run from 2nd Avenue (F). In the center if u look up, can see the boxes for the express and local tracks
Huh?
The "A" IS express in Brooklyn from Euclid to Manhattan(except during overnight hours when it is local). The C covers regular local service (except during overnight hours).
The A train express stops are Euclid, Broadway Junction (East NY), Utica Av, Nostrand Av. It then shares trackage with the C from Hoyt-Schermerhorn into Manhattan (both lines make the same stops into Manhattan up to Canal where local and express service resumes.
Maybe you should stop looking old subway maps and making comments before you compare them to current ones.
Well excuuuuse me! Perhaps I should have said a straight shot from Euclid to Manhattan as in no stops.
That plan wouldn't work. It would get stuck behind A trains making express stops, and it misses the Broadway junction stop, one where there are many transfers made.
I agree, Broadway ENY station is a very large complex and handles toooooooooooooo many commuters to have the "A" Line pass through that station, try going to the MTA website and look at the current Subway Map and get updated on what's going on.
I agree. Skipping the express stops wouldn't save enough time and would anger those in the bypassed stations, especially the crowds at B'way/ENY.
Such a service is not practical. It would run up against a regular A express train.
"Perhaps I should have said a straight shot from Euclid to Manhattan as in no stops."
You could do that as long as you do it for all A trains.
But that's true of all express lines. Why not make the E and F skip Roosevelt (that would get rid of their overcrowding)? Why not make the 4/5 skip 86th and 59th?
Express lines (except maybe for CPW, which follows your philosophy) are all built as a compromise between providing service at all stops and providing a really fast non-stop ride.
But that's true of all express lines. Why not make the E and F skip Roosevelt (that would get rid of their overcrowding)? Why not make the 4/5 skip 86th and 59th
Oh man......wait till David Greenberger sees this.......
LOL!
There isn't much to say. Have too long an express run and the locals will be incurably overcrowded. Besides, in this case, why would anyone want expresses to bypass a busy transfer point to two BMT lines? (It's one of the few decent interdivisional transfer points the IND has.)
Of course.....I just said it as a joke....
Even with the current setup, both the express and local recieve a tremendous crowds during the weekday rush hour, agreed, pretty well balanced for the most part.
One grip would be Hoyt-Schermerhorn station, the Manhattan bound A and C converge here; standing in the A one stop from Hoyt, but having to wait for a C train 2 stops back to catch up, pass, and switch over in front, then get stalled in the station :-| but guess its something we just have to live with right now
give him a brake...:}mistakes happen.
Now I'm curious:
When, where, and why did the A/C ever go skip-stop {if they did}?
So that no trains would get in the way of the JFK express?
I must be brain dead. Forget I started the whole thread. I was thinking about the horribly long J/Z skip stopping and not being local - not the A. The two lines are parallel on the map and I just got them confused. Forgive this GA boy please.
You can not distinguish the differential between "brown" & "blue"?
I said I made a mistake and am sorry. Good grief - you yankees are an unforgiving bunch.
You want to critique us New Yawkers >G<, we're a tough bunch,
unforgiving mate.
:-)Sparky
We're just like the WWF. (Or should I say WWE?)
We have attitude!
Please do not compare New Yorkers to professional wrestlers. Those with IQ's above single digits find it offensive.
This is very true
Soooooo that's why you didn't know what was going on in the NYC subway system because you don't even live in NYC, and us New Yorkers can be very aggressive but you'll get used to it on this board.
I'm not from NYC but I loooove your subway and the crowds. It's a blast. I'll be there come October to check out the new 1/9 trackage.
I can Tell.
Most of us who use the 7th Ave Broadway local are still praying the TA will come to its senses and kill the #9 (aka - the most useless line every). Please refrain from using the term 1/9 and just go with #1.
He may not live in NYC but he found his way a year ago to the very last (ever?) R-40 B train (where he found me glued to the railfan window). I'd say that's pretty impressive.
There were no skip stops on the A/C or A/CC to expedite the JFK
Express, they just joined the conga line at W 4th to Howard Beach.
Non-stop from Jay Street.
;-) Sparky
I don't understand, could you clarify that? What joined the conga line?
The JFK Expreseses joined the procession of A/C or A/CC from
West 4th Street to Howard Beach/JFK. >The Conga Line following
the A/C or A/CC from West 4th to Hoyt Schermerhorn, then the A
to Euclid and the A/C or A/CC to Howard Beach, non stop from
Jay Street.< O.K.
;-) Sparky
The TA wouldn't have the A Line go express right through Brooklyn Non-Stop, because then your screwing Commuters in Brooklyn, like me! And Besides, the "A" already runs express, the "A" by-passes 9 stops in both direction in Brooklyn.
Angel: Why does this station look much newer and larger than the other Northern Line stations around it?
Baker St A long time ago, this is where the Bakerloo branched off north and continued along today's Jubliee line. How is the station arrangment between the Jubliee and Bakerloo stations? The map shows it to be a perpindicular crossing, but that's just a schematic. Did the now Jubliee line branch off after Baker St or before?
And one last thing, does this track layout look complicated enough? :-) (No, don't answer this)
Every time I look at the London photos on this site, it reaffirms why the Underground is my favorite subway in the world. I can't wait until the next time I can go back.
Heres a link to london lines and the pictures of some of the station:
http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/london/
click on Bakerloo
"And one last thing, does this track layout look complicated enough? :-) (No, don't answer this)"
Boy, I wasn't paying as much attention to the tracks as to that train. It seems to be ALL DOORS! Not only is there little room for seats, but it would seem that about half of the standees would be inside (and therefore blocking to some degree, depending on traffic) a door.
Angel station used to be a single center island platform much like some of those on the southern end of the Northern line to Morden. It was closed (around 1995-1997), and rebuilt to what's there now.
Looking at the photos of other stations with the narrow island platforms, it looks like they reused the old station for use as one of the new platforms. Is that true? It would be a waste of money if they didn't. If so, which direction is the old station used for now?
"it looks like they reused the old station for use as one of the new platforms"
That is exactly what they did at Angel. The platform for trains running towards Kings Cross is the new one; it is of the usual width. The one for trains running towards Moorgate is very wide, because the platform occupies the space of the old track as well as the old island platform.
The escalators and the station entrance on the east side of Islington High Street are totally new. If you go round the corner (left out of the station and then turn left again at the traffic lights) you can see the old station entrance building, on the north side of City Road. It had elevators, not escalators, and the entrance to the platform was directly on to one end of the island platform.
I believe the work was done for safety reasons; the station is quite busy, and with a narrow island platform being fed with people from one end, at crowded times there was a danger of people being pushed off the platform edges. It must have been quite an expensive rebuilding though.
It is true that there are still stations with the old layout of Angel at the southern end of the Northern Line. I guess they are not as busy as Angel.
Fytton.
The Jubilee line used to have two branches, with the Harrow & Wealdstone and Stanmore branches converging at Baker Street. They built new platforms for the Jubilee, and managed to rearrange the tracks, so I’m not sure these days that there is a track connection.
The photo is from somewhere around Acton, which is a major depot. There is a big junction just west where the District Line to Ealing and the Piccadilly line to Uxbridge diverge (there is a flying junction for the Piccadilly) from the Heathrow branch.
The Jubilee line used to have two branches, with the Harrow & Wealdstone and Stanmore branches converging at Baker Street.
Of course you actually mean the Bakerloo Line. The Jubilee Line was a tacky name dreamt up in the 1970's when they realised that the planned Fleet Line wasn't going to get anywhere near Fleet Street.
Duh! Yes, of course!
I remember that the Fleet Line was going to continue from Charing Cross, pick up the Aldwych (RIP) station**, then continue along Fleet Street.
Still doable, given that the Jubilee Charing Cross platforms still exist…
John
(In the 1970s, I was a student at King’s College and lived in Tavistock Square, so I would take the Piccadilly line to Holborn and change for the Aldwych shuttle)
Still doable, given that the Jubilee Charing Cross platforms still exist…
And the tunnels all the way to Aldwych (but no station). It would provide quite a bit of relief to the District Line (IIRC, the planned alignment was something like Charing X - Aldwych - Ludgate Cricus - Mansion House - Monument - Tower Hill), plus we'd get the Aldwych Shuttle back!!!
And perhaps they might even extend the Aldwych shuttle to Waterloo, as per 1960s plans. Much more effective than the trams that are proposed.
And perhaps they might even extend the Aldwych shuttle to Waterloo, as per 1960s plans.
I have a plan for an "Aldwych Line" which starts as the 1960's plans, then goes a bit grandiose! In brief, the Alignment would be Holborn - Aldwych - Waterloo (as per the 1960s plans), then under Kennington Road (stops: Lambeth North, Black Prince Road), Camberwell New Road (stops: Oval, Camberwell Green), Camberwell Church Street, Peckham Road (stop: Peckham Town Hall), Peckham High Street (stop: Peckham High Street), Queen's Road (stop and interchange: Queen's Road Peckham), Lausanne Road, Gellatly Road (stop and interchange: Nunhead), then under the National Rail Line onto the disused SE&CR alignment (stops: Merttins Road, Honor Oak, Lordship Lane, Upper Sydenham, Crystal Palace), then becoming Elevated over Crystal Palace Park, continuing over Church Road (stop: Belvedere Road), Grange Road (stops: Upper Norwood, Thornton Heath High Street), Whitehorse Road (stop: Northcote Road), Wellesley Road, Station Road (stop, interchange and terminus: West Croydon).
Much more effective than the trams that are proposed.
The trams are not much good as they would run in the street. If Red Ken gave them their tunnel back, separated lanes in Bloomsbury and on the Waterloo Bridge, an El from Waterloo Bridge to at least Elephant and Castle, then separated lanes again in the South, it'd be perfectly effective. Unfortunately, he's not - he's come up with some half-assed (to use a good American descriptor) scheme to do ßüggér all!
The station at Aldwych is still there. It is occasionally used for filming.
Yes, the Shuttle station still is. It's also used for testing out new forms of cladding for Underground Stations on the other platform. However, the Fleet Line Station was never built (unless it's the 76th Street of the London Underground...)
The District Line runs east-west parallel to the Strand/Fleet Street route, only a little to the south, and the Central Line runs east-west parallel to it only a little to the north; it might not have been worth paying for a third parallel line so close. The Jubilee Line extension as built runs east-west south of the Thames, serving previously unserved Bermondsey and Southwark, arguably a more useful addition to the network.
Fytton.
The Central and District/Circle Lines are packed! The streets above are packed. The Fleet Line would have had a hell of a lot of use. I don't know Bermondsey very well, but I doubt it has such transit problems as the Cities of London and Westminster and the occupied Borough of St Marylebone... (oops, I'm nearly sounding like American Pig there...)
However, the Charing X - Aldwych Tunnel would be useful for building a completely different Fleet Line:
1) Take over the British Rail Lines from Wimbledon to Shepperton, Hampton Court, and Chessington South.
2) Take over the Wimbledon Branch (stations: Wimbledon, Wimbledon Park, Southfields, East Putney, Putney Bridge, Parson's Green, Fulham Broadway).
3) Close the current West Brompton Station.
4) Build a new tunnel from Fulham Broadway Station, roughly under Tamworth Farm Lane, the Old Brompton Road, Pelham Street, Sloane Avenue, Walpole Street, Royal Hospital Road, Pimlico Road, Buckingham Palace Road, Buckingham Gate, and the Mall. (stations: West Brompton (at 90 degrees to and below the current one), Drayton Gardens, South Kensington (transfer to Circle, District and Piccadilly Lines), Royal Hospital, Victoria (transfer to Circle, District and Victoria Lines), Buckingham Palace (for the tourists)
5) Enter Charing Cross (Fleet Line Station). Extend the current over-run tracks along the Strand, Fleet Street (YAY!), Ludgate Hill, Saint Paul's Churchyard, Saint Martin's le Grand, Aldergate Street, Old Street, Hackney Road, Mare Street, Lower Clapton Road, Median Road, Powercroft Road, Lea Bridge Road, Woodford New Road, Chelmsford Road, Churchfields. (stations: Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, St Paul's (transfer to Central Line), Barbican (transfer to Circle, H&C, Met Lines), Old Street (transfer to Northern, Northern City Lines), Hoxton (transfer to ELL Extension), Queensbridge Road, Cambridge Heath, South Hackney, Hackney Central, Clapton Park (at Rushmore Road), Markhouse Road, Hoe Street, Whipp's Cross, Woodford Green)
6) Tunnel continuing under Central Line tracks, rising to take over Epping Branch. (stations: Woodford, Buckhurst Hill, Loughton, Debden, Theydon Bois, Epping)
7) As this is fantasy: North Weald, Blake Hall, and Ongar!
This would relieve:
- Waterloo (National Rail) station, by taking over some suburban lines
- the District Line, by taking over a branch then running in close alignment to the City
- Buses in the Hackney area
- Traffic in the Hackney area
- the outermost reaches of the Victoria Line in Walthamstow
- the Central Line, by taking over a branch then running in close alignment between the City and West End
The following other expansions would be made possible:
- District Line: Richmond - Shepperton, Richmond - Windsor Riverside, Ealing - Windsor Central, Ealing - Uxbridge Vine Street, Upminster - Grays
- Central Line: Ealing - Greenford, West Ruislip - Uxbridge High Street, Stratford - Romford - Upminster
- Victoria Line: Walthamstow Central - Chingford
So I'd say that the right sort of Fleet Line would bring massive benefits to London, the commuter belt, and beyond (at not having terminal space taken up by local trains).
That's on the Central line near Ruisilip. Look at the train - that's a 1992 Central line train.
-Robert King
It’s been many years since I went so far out on the Central Line, but I don’t remember such complicated trackwork so far out.
OTOH, I have been around Acton much more recently, as I now live in the US and have taken the Piccadilly line to Heathrow–at least until the Paddington train started. The points look quite like the storage area just East of Acton, but I certainly stand corrected!
John
I may be slightly wrong, too... It is definitely the Central line - the windows on that train give it away immediately that it's a 1992 stock train. But that train's running away from the camera on the right hand side so this moves us in from Ruisilip, where I mistakenly believed the picture was taken, to White City where the old layout of the depot forced right hand running.
I've got a 1957 book which has a chapter on the London Underground and hit has an above-ground view of Acton with lots of Standard Stock negotiating the complicated point work which is quite similar. The fourth rail electrification certainly makes the track junctions much more complicated...
-Robert King
By the way, the track arrangement would look a lot less complicated without the 3rd and 4th rail segments all over the place.
I know, that's why I didn't want an answer for it :-)
Why does this station look much newer and larger than the other Northern Line stations around it?
Can't really comment - I haven't ridden the Bank Branch for quite some time. I rarely even use the Charing X Branch when I'm in London.
Did the now Jubliee line branch off after Baker St or before?
I believe there was (is?) a flying junction North (geographically West) of Baker Street where the Stanmore Branch was (is?) connected to the Bakerloo Main Line.
The Stanmore Branch was originally a part of the Metropolitan Line (10th December 1932 (when it was first opened) - 19th November 1939). On 19th November 1939, two of the three local stops (viz Lord's and Marlborough Road) on the Met between Baker St and Finchley Rd were removed. The third, Swiss Cottage, was removed on 17th August 1940.
From the 20th November 1939, the Stanmore Branch was served by the Bakerloo Line, as it remained until 30th April 1979. On 1st May 1979, through "Jubilee" (EUGH!) Line service began from Charing X to Stanmore (this joined the current routing at Green Park). This was how it remained until the late 1990s, with the extension to Stratford (London, not -upon-Avon, despite what the tourists think!), opened in parts through 1999, with the very confusing situation of having two Jubilee Lines for much of the year (really bad once it reached Waterloo from the East, but still ran into Charing X from the North).
And one last thing, does this track layout look complicated enough?
Ah, White City on the Central Line, I believe. The one place I can think of on the Underground where the trains are running on the right-hand track.
Every time I look at the London photos on this site, it reaffirms why the Underground is my favorite subway in the world. I can't wait until the next time I can go back.
It has its nice bits - my next trip to London will definitely include the Central Line Loop and Epping Branch. I may well ride the ELL as well.
> Ah, White City on the Central Line, I believe. The one place I can think of on the Underground where the trains are running on the right-hand track.
IIRC, Bank (or maybe London Bridge) station on the Northern Line City branch is likewise.
And the Victoria Line at Euston?
"And the Victoria Line at Euston?" (Right-hand running on the London Underground)
And the Victorai Line at Kings Cross and Warren Street, the stations on either side of Euston, too, so it 0ust run right-hand for some distance (I don't know why). But the photo that started this thread is in the open air, and may well be White City. In which case the multi-level highway in the background is the M40. David (Webmaster) Pirmann took the photo -- can he confirm where it is?
Fytton.
All the photos are captioned with location on the London pages. Yes, it's White City. Western end of platform I believe.
NJ Transit board okays spending plan
NEW YORK CITY -- New Jersey transportation officials on Wednesday (July 10) approved a $1.19 billion fiscal year 2003 capital budget for NJ Transit, the nation's third largest transit system, Reuters reported.
The capital budget is $60 million greater than last year's plan, which will be used to increase capacity on the system's rail lines, many of which have become severely overcrowded since the Sept. 11 attack on the World Trade Center.
About $130 million of the budget will be used to buy bi-level railcars from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to help relieve the congestion problems.
The plan is funded with about $529 million from the State Transportation Trust Fund, which receives most of its money from fuel taxes and other vehicle-related fees. Federal sources will fund $497 million of the plan and $34 million will come from other sources.
The capital plan also includes the purchase of new Comet V railcars, new buses and new electric and diesel locomotives. Funding for the state's three light rail systems, Hudson-Bergen, Newark-Elizabeth and Southern Jersey, is also part of the budget.
The transit system's board of directors on Wednesday also adopted a $1.22 billion operating budget for fiscal year 2003, which began on July 1.
The plan is funded through $549 million in passenger revenues, $260 million in state operating assistance, $260 million from the capital budget, and $152.7 million from other resources.
July 11, 2002
taken from here
About $130 million of the budget will be used to buy bi-level railcars from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to help relieve the congestion problems.
Since when did PANYNJ own railcars?
The plan is funded through... state operating assistance, $260 million from the capital budget...
CAPITAL BUDGET????????????
AEM7
Well aside owning the PATH cars, all the LIRR M1's and M3's are owned by the PA and leased to the LIRR and MNRR. Check out the owner's plate in the car.
I once saw text on the outside of a LIRR M-1 saying it was owned by the PANYNJ.
For a week, everyone talked about Amtrak. Now they got their $100m, nobody is talking about it anymore. Not even on subtalk.
No wonder they find it hard to get $.
AEM7
that's how all news works. When it's no longer seen as a problem, it stops getting discussed. For example, the news rarely talks about airport security anymore, but it hasn't been improved much since September.
Now that Gunn is at the helm, maybe when Amtrak has budget problems, they'll just turn to the media and threats of shutting down, instead of simply mortgaging its life away.
I would see no reason to talk about it since they don't have any "news-related" issues. Notice that in no time or rarely ever does a news channel (or a group of people) mention about an organization or company that is doing all right. Imagine how it would be if all of the companies in the world were mentioned in the news for their "well-doing". What a waste of time that would be!
Also, are late trains completely AMTRAK's fault or just equipment problems?
There's been a lot of talk lately about how the federal government keeps Amtrak on a near-starvation diet, while at the same time lavishing money on airlines and roads. I'm certainly not going to deny that Amtrak's funding level is shameful. As far as airlines are concerned, however, things aren't always as simple as they seem. While Washington indeed has stepped in to help the airlines with the loan guarantee plan, and of course has provided much of the nation's aviation infrastructure, the fact remains that air travel - more precisely, airline passengers - are very heavily taxed.
Last month I bought a round-trip ticket on Southwest Airlines between Long Island-MacArthur and West Palm Beach. The total round-trip fare is $175. But wait! An analysis of the billing statement shows that only $128.38 of that amount, or 73.4%, represents the actual cost of transportation. The rest is federal tax of $21.62 and a combined Passenger Facility Charge/security fee (basically, taxes in disguise) of $25.00. In other words, my air travel is being taxed at a rate of 26.6%. No wonder Congress has plenty of money for the airlines ...
The way the airlines are putting more planes up, Long Island-MacArthur may be the next La Guardia; probably the reasoning behind the new terminal at Jamaica Center from the AirTrain. You may find a lot more landing at MacArthur and catching the train into the city
... actually, the effective tax rate on your ticket is 36.3% (46.62 / 128.38 original price) -- but nobody really wanted a math lesson, did they?
Your case is somewhat extreme, since you're flying on a relatively low cost fare and many of the taxes/fees are flat charges -- they make the fee/tax percentage seem very high.
I have a round trip to Dallas next Wednesday for $415 which has only $46.13 of fees, or 12.5% of original price. Of course the government will pick up another $22 of fees and taxes on my $61 car rental for that day.
Most of these fees and taxes are plowed back into air concerns. It would be interesting to see the % of airline industry subsidy which comes from these taxes and fees as opposed to the general tax collections.
CG
While I do not claim to be an expert on the actual dollars involved, I would think the money the government spends on the air tranport industry is significantly more than it takes in in taxes related to the services it provides. To get a true picture, we also need to factor in state and local governments. Airports are usually owned by public agencies or local/state governments themselves. So you need to figure that the local government is not getting any property tax on the land occupied by the airport, while it (or some agency like the Port Authority) must provide services such as police, fire and EMS.
And I have to believe the federal governments costs are enormous when you consider the safety inspections, regulatory review of aircraft and air traffic control.
>>> To get a true picture, we also need to factor in state and local governments. Airports are usually owned by public agencies or local/state governments themselves. So you need to figure that the local government is not getting any property tax on the land occupied by the airport, while it (or some agency like the Port Authority) must provide services such as police, fire and EMS <<<
Here is Los Angeles, one of the big concerns after 9/11 was the reduction of traffic through LAX, because prior to 9/11, LAX was the city's biggest contributor of money into the city's coffers. In general, the fees charged by big airports to the airlines in landing fees, and directly to passengers through departure taxes, more than make up for the loss of property tax and the services provided.
Tom
"There's been a lot of talk lately about how the federal government keeps Amtrak on a near-starvation diet, while at the same time lavishing money on airlines and roads. "
Nobody who posts here is willing to do the many days of analysis it would take to estimate the total government expenditure on the air system, total taxes paid by air users, total revenues of the airlines, etc., and come up with a net government subsidy per airplane passenger mile traveled.
I'd sure like to see someone do that (or even do a quick and dirty version), because the answer would be very interesting, no matter how it turns out.
There's been a lot of talk lately about how the federal government keeps Amtrak on a near-starvation diet, while at the same time lavishing money on airlines and roads.
Nobody who posts here is willing to do the many days of analysis it would take to estimate the total government expenditure on the air system, total taxes paid by air users, total revenues of the airlines, etc., and come up with a net government subsidy per airplane passenger mile traveled.
I'd sure like to see someone do that (or even do a quick and dirty version), because the answer would be very interesting, no matter how it turns out.
I'd be very interested to see it too. My guess is that the airline industry is largely self-supporting. In other words, the special taxes and fees on air travel fully or mostly pay for the government's costs associated with maintaining the system. Or at least that's what I suspect.
None of this is actually relevant as far as passenger rail is concerned. Rail is deserving of reasonable government support, though not necessarily in its current (Amtrak) form, regardless of whether or not the airlines are getting a free ride. These are separate issues.
Airline passengers are taxed. The airlines themselves get the benefits of these taxes; airline executives and their boards of directors get lavishly compensated.
Amtrak deserves more money.
OK boys and girls as promised:
GENERAL ORDER 4066-02
which replaces,
GENERAL ORDER 4044-02
Museum "D" train type cars 6095abc, 6019abc and 6112abc
At 0800 hours the Excursion train will leave CIY and proceed N/B via the 'F" line to Jay st. Then via the "A" line to north of 59/CC. The excursion train will then proceed south to track A3 at 59/CC.
At 1000 hours, guests wil board the excursion train at 59/CC, middle platform.
The excursion train will relay north of 59/CC
The excursion train will operate south via track A1 to south of 59th street/CC, cross to track B3 and operate via the "F" line to Stillwell where guests will detrain for lunch. The excursion train will proceed to CIY and lay up.
After the lunch break, guests will board the excursion train at Stillwell. The excursion train will operate via the "W" line to DeKalb where Brooklyn guest will detrain.
The excursion train will proceed via the "Q" line, Manhattan Bridge and B'way/7th Ave, to 57th/7 ave where remaining guests will detrain.
The excursion train will then return light to CIY.
Peace,
ANDEE
> At 0800 hours the Excursion train will leave CIY and proceed N/B via the 'F" line to Jay st.
Will it go through Stillwell, or will it use the yard lead near Avenue X?
> The excursion train will then return light to CIY.
Along what route?
Also, will this be the upcoming Sunday? And what time is lunch break expected to be? I probably won't make it to the train, but I would at least like to view it.
- Lyle Goldman
Lunch break will probably be around 1130-1200.
Don't know the answers to the other queries.
Peace,
ANDEE
My bet it will leave via Ave X since she is normaly over by that lead anyway.
Thank you Andee. See you Sunday.
I hope the trip on the West End will use track M ....
--Mark
So do I
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, I find the relay NORTH of 59 AFTER the passengers load most interesting. Does this mean that the train will wrong-rail out of 59?
HMMMM
Peace,
ANDEE
I think it has to because of the GO that has C trains running express from 145 - Canal ....
--Mark
That's a weekday GO. SB D trains have to be on the local track at 59th at all times (the switch from the express track is temporarily gone). On weekdays, the C has to run express to avoid having three lines share a track. On weekends, without the B, there's more flexibility.
They have the southbound express track completely dug up at 86th street, where on Saturday they were raising all kinds of cain with jackhammers and concrete smashers and the entire roadbed was gouged out, big chunks of concrete everywhere. I was not happy that the "A" train (and I had waited up at 207th Street for an R38!) was RUNNING LOCAL, so much so that I abandoned my planned trip to Brooklyn and bailed out to see the Kinkisharyo LRVs' and new stations on the Newark Subway.
wayne
All because of 4-5 minutes extra running time (plus the increased risk of merging delays at 125th)?
Incidentally, why weren't A trains running express south of 59th? They could have switched to the express track there. Maybe to fill in for the missing E? But if the A had gone express, the E could have terminated at WTC as usual -- I assume it went to 2nd Avenue so the local track from W4 to Canal wouldn't have to carry all three services.
And were uptown D's running local or express? While I was waiting at 59th for the Nostalgia Train, I saw two D's pull in on the uptown side, one on the local track and one on the express track. Who was right? What about the uptown A? I saw one of those on the local track, too.
Down in Brooklyn, southbound W trains (which were operating express on the Sea Beach) ran express from Pacific to 36th and local from 36th to 59th, because the express track was filled with sleeping R-46's. Apparently the northbound express track can't be used without interfering with the single-track R shuttle, but aren't there unused express tracks elsewhere? How about the unused F express tracks, the 6th Avenue express tracks, the 8th Avenue express tracks (see above), or even the parts of the 53rd Street line (from the 63rd Street turnoff from the QB express tracks through 50th) that weren't actually closed for the GO?
...the E could have terminated at WTC as usual -- I assume it went to 2nd Avenue so the local track from W4 to Canal wouldn't have to carry all three services.
E was running via F from Roosevelt Ave to 2nd Ave.
And were uptown D's running local or express? While I was waiting at 59th for the Nostalgia Train, I saw two D's pull in on the uptown side, one on the local track and one on the express track. Who was right? What about the uptown A? I saw one of those on the local track, too.
Uptown D's were running express. Uptown A's were running against the wall.
You were on the Nostalgia Train, too? I was wearing a #7 tee-shirt. It was a good, but slow, trip.
but aren't there unused express tracks elsewhere? How about the unused F express tracks, the 6th Avenue express tracks, the 8th Avenue express tracks (see above), or even the parts of the 53rd Street line (from the 63rd Street turnoff from the QB express tracks through 50th) that weren't actually closed for the GO?
The Queens Blvd line northbound track nort of Van Qyck Blvd is just chock full of stored trains on weekends. The other unused express tracks on the IND South Brooklyn Line are "too hard to get to"; I'd say the same for the 6th Ave express tracks, too.
--mark
E was running via F from Roosevelt Ave to 2nd Ave.
I know, but according to the posted service notice it was supposed to go to WTC. There wasn't much point in running the E yesterday, and it caused a good deal of confusion in Manhattan. The E should have been cancelled and the R extended to Jamaica Center, as was done so many weekends last year.
Uptown D's were running express. Uptown A's were running against the wall.
At least one D came in on the local track. I don't know why.
You were on the Nostalgia Train, too? I was wearing a #7 tee-shirt. It was a good, but slow, trip.
I wasn't on it; I was chasing after it with a camera.
I started at 59, expecting it to come in on the express track. I'd get a picture and, while it was loading up, hop on a train on the local track and head to Smith-9th. Just before the train came, it occurred to me that that plan wouldn't work with only one track in use, so I hopped on a D. We got to 47-50 just as an F was leaving, and all hopes of catching it at 42 or 34 were dashed when we were held for a minute. At 34, I realized I wouldn't make it in time that way, so I went upstairs to get an N over the bridge to 9th Street, where I'd go upstairs hopefully in time for the NT. Well, I hadn't counted on a 10-minute wait for the N! So, at Pacific, I crossed to a W and figured on catching it at Stillwell. We stopped before 36 to let the N go in front of us and we didn't catch up until Bay Parkway (but then it slipped ahead and we passed it again at Kings Highway). By the time I got to Stillwell, the NT had already arrived.
I had somewhat greater success catching it after lunch. While waiting, I ran into our very own Alex L. After the NT pulled in, I got back on a W one stop and got a few pictures as the NT passed at Bay 50. (If anyone on the NT saw someone at the north end of the platform at Bay 50 with a camera, that was me.)
I really like the horn.
All that trouble for a picture? :)
I'll have to check the return trip video I took and see what you look like :)
--Mark
Question: Can anyone come and ride these trains? or do you have to be invited?
Well it ain't for free and nor is it going to be $1.50...
Subwaysurf should have the details...
I do not know if the Train is sold out. *IF* it is not sold out you *SHOULD* be able to show up at 59th street on Sunday and buy a ticket. But, I would advise you to call to Museum @ 718-694-5139 and make a reservation.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe the price is $25 for museum members and $30 for anyone else. There are 2 trips in August as well.
is the august 25 trip sold out ??
>>is the august 25 trip sold out ??<<
I'm not sure if they started selling tickets for the August 25th trip. Try that second phone number I gave you. Also try calling mornings New York time. Avoid lunch hour (NY time)
Bill "Newkirk"
THANKS! I'll just show up down there, wherever it is, with my $25 and more than likely if they're not overcrowded, I'll get on.
Where's it start again?
wayne
>>Where's it start again?<<
59th St/Columbus Circle (IND). Today was by the area that connects to the downtown #1.
Bill "Newkirk"
Are you related to Police Officer Steve GRABOWSKI?
This trip seems to be so short. Is this the schedule for all 3 trips? How would I get tickets for the event on 8/11 or 8/25? Would I be able to pay the Transit Museum at GCT? Also why not a tour of CI Yard be included?
I never rode 1 of these trains before and I'd like to get on it this summer while I can. Any info would be appreciated.
#2812 Q Brighton Beach Local
I saw it today, it arrived at 57st at about 3PM so not all that short.
They used 3 triplex units, I thought only 2 were operational?
Last time (2000) I saw them, #6095 had some minor electrical problems, which I guess they have fixed. They MU'd with her at Court Street, we had #6112 and a very rickety-looking #6019, complete with patched-up ceilings. They rode very poorly in the IND, but fared better when they got out to elevated territory and were fine in the BMT.
wayne
>>They rode very poorly in the IND, but fared better when they got out to elevated territory and were fine in the BMT.<<
They rode poorly on the IND but better on the BMT. Even the D Tyes know they were not on their home turf. Now what does that tell you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
> They rode very poorly in the IND, but . . . were fine in the BMT.
Really? That's very strange.
- Lyle Goldman
Well, I think it was short - the layover at Coney Island was 2 hours.
That's a long way from the first D-Type trip of the "modern day era" Transit Museum, in 1995, where we went to Stillwell Ave twice in the same trip - once via CUlver, through CI Yard to Stillwell, through Stillwell, down Brighton Express, via tunnel to Whitehall St, back via 4th Ave Express and West End Local to Stillwell Ave, return trip leaving Stillwell Ave via Culver. Now THAT was a ride.
--Mark
The difference is the Museum does the same thing over and over. The Sub-Division C march of dimes trip does something different each year.
It pays to save your pennies for the Division 'C' trips vs the
Transit Museum trips. It's on $5.oo more for most, $10.oo for
museum members and you won't be disapointed. Just wear your waders.
;-) Sparky
Just heard from a very reliable source, that most likely, there will
be another Division 'C' Division "March of Dimes" excursion in 2002 with the D types and an extra. The TM Nostalgia Trips are for the Strappies, and the 'C' Division excursion for the Rail Enthusiast.
;-) Sparky
Tell C Division not to schedule their next D Type trip the week of August 26th :)
Otherwise I'm ready!
--Mark
I can tell you with utmost certainty that the next 'C' division
"March of Dimes" excursion is not the weekend of August 24/25, 2002.
That's a Museum Trip for the Strappies.
;-) Sparky
Two possibilities:
1. They installed a center track at JFK that was never there.
2. I am going insane e.g. the Joker in Batman.
BTW, in the LIRR days, wasn't that station 4 tracks? Have to take out my track map book.
Also, why doesn't the Northbound use the new center platform? I assume this platform was installed to allow easier access to Airtrain, but unless both directions use it, it makes no sense.
The new platform (I haven't seen it yet) was built over one or both of the middle tracks. There were 4 tracks and two side platforms before.
At Howard Beach there are 4 tracks. The same number that the LIRR had there since they first built the line. Because of Airtrain construction TA is not using the 2 side platforms since PA is going to build new staircases to the existing platforms. At the present time N/B trains are stopping on the N/B express track with a temporary platform over the N/B local track. With walkways toward the buses to the airport and toward the overpass to the S/B side. S/B trains are stopping on the S/B Local track with a temporary platform over the S/B express platform. Of course there are new stairways as well to the overpass.
The platforms will also be receiving elevators. I don't know if they will have to be widened for that...
They probably will. On the Coleman Square Side of the station, it looks like the platform will be widened into the street somewhat. I wouldn't be surprised also if the platforms will move north of where they are now.
You can see my photos of this over at http://www.nycrail.com
Great photos. Nice to see AirTrain coming along.
After the R-44 did it's test run on the LIRR property back in the 70's, did the MTA test anymore Subway Cars on that Line?
I've never seen evidence of that written anywhere, so I'd say no.
Nobody's ever mentioned it...no evidence. Probably not.
The only other NYCTA subway cars *I* know of that were tested on rail lines around NY City were the first R32's that did a trip on the New York central from Mott Haven Yard to Grand central. Photos of that move do exist in a few places.
Do you have the links to the pages?
It was not a test, but a demo run paid for by the BUDD Company. The R32 were still owned by BUDD and was not NYCTA property yet.
Sounds like it was a great marketing move.
And if that is the case.... they ran on the other kindo of third rail!
Imagine that!
lirr third rail is almost the same(though it does have different voltage)
700 -750 for LIRR,600 for subway....
LIRR: 750 volts
NYC Subway: 600 volts
When the R-44 was tested on their property back in 70's and made a subway speed record, half the motors died because they weren't designed for 750 volts.
Actually more traction motors than that were lost, the count as I understood it was 3/4 of the traction motors.
Except he was talking about NYCentral, which is now Metro-North, which has overrunning third rail.
A number of railfan books (one being Greller's 'NYC Subway Cars') use a shot of the R-32's -- complete with a banner spanning the end of the lead car -- amongst freight equipment over at Mott Haven on its way to Grand Central. Have yet to see pictures of the cars at GCT.
I bought a couple of shots at a train show of the 32's on a float barge docked at Long Island City. It's a nice b&w.
I dsoubt it. I remember another poster here stating that the voltage on the LIRR Main Line in 1972 (when the R44 speed trials happened) was 700 volts or maybe a little less; the voltage was subsequently stepped up to 750 volts.
NYC subway cars are set to run at 600 volts. I am not familiar with the voltagges on other systems (does Metrorail in DC run on 750 volts?)
Metro is 750v
The R46's were also tested. So to prove you guys wrong, in 1975 a set of R46's were tested on the Main Line passing Kew Gardens Station. See Grellers book on NYC Subway Cars under R46 to prove the point.
That is R44 262 at Forest Hills on the LIRR, in 1972. The picture is right here, or if my HTML really is as bad as i think: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r4446.html
Here's another, provides pretty irrefutable proof, eh?
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r4446/r44lirr-a.jpg
There are a bunch of pictures in addition to the picture I posted, such as (BTW, these are all R44s except where noted, I think):
LIRR Parkville Jct. With R4 M506, Ex-466
LIRR Shea Stadium. Testing on LIRR
LIRR Forest Hills. Testing on LIRR
LIRR. Testing on LIRR
Sorry about that, I missed AE2005's After the R44s, really wish I had read more carefully, again sorry about the useless post, you can go ahead an close or delete it if you like.
Your post was awesome! I didn't know there were photos like you posted available on this site! Thanks.
I've seen those photos already, actually I forgot to mention the R-46 on the LIRR property.
You mean to say R44 instead of R46 that were tried on the LIRR.
I menat to say the R-44 & R-46 were tested on the LIRR.
Are you sure R46s were tested on the LIRR?
Yeah, I'm Sure, they even had pics to prove it right here on this website.
Look again. Note the number plate. They (R44) are black numbers on a silver backing. The R46 were the standard white number on black background. This was as delivered from the plant.
The webmaster grouped the R44 and R46 together. After their GOH the R44 and R46 look the same a first glance.
grey carbon steel strip on a R-44 makes it look different than a R-46. With the candy stripe removed.
Hey if you're bored some day click the subway tokens at the top and start exploring :-)
Dum Dah Dum Dum!
Great photos.
Wow, those are really cool photos!
Neat photos indeed! Did the LIRR's R-44s really have the same plastic seating? That would make a long ride uncomfortable. -Nick
Nick,
I think you misunderstand.
Those R44s are NYC Subway Cars only. They were on LIRR tracks for speed testing only. They were not put in passenger service on the LIRR.
Oh dear, indeed I did..thanks for the clarification! -Nick
The lopk right at home. Just give them some commuter style seats plus a Voltage regulator and railfan windows they will run perfectly.
The R-44/46 class were tested on the LIRR Main Line from Bridge 83 east of Kew Gardens to Woodside. Thise is one of the faster stretches of railroad in the LIRR system. No place on the TA system was suitable for the high speed 70+ mph testing the R-44/46 classes were to undergo. These were not the only subway cars to be tested on the Main Line. PATH PA-1 class cars were also tested on the Main Line for speed testing. To see pictures of this testing check the section on PATH (Hudson & Manhattan RR) section right here at nycsubway.org. Click the link for "Historical Photos".
A very good day for riding the "7". Hardly a piece of shit R-62A in sight :o)
Wrong Board, Kiddo.
Don't tell me you too are a fan of the R-62A's. I can't stand anything new....
I guess you'd take a ride in a DC-3 propeller plane over a modern Boeing 737, then. I guess you'd take an rotting AMC Gremlin over a brand-new Ford Taurus too.
Me too. Those were classics. Give me a DC-3 and a Gremlin any day and I'll be happy.
My flight in a DC-3 was one I'll never forget! Atlanta to Fayetteville, NC, with 4 intermediate stops. The last leg was so short that we flew low enough to have to climb a couple times to clear a tall tree.
Three days later we were on a train heading south, laughing about stopping in every little one-horse town. Then we roared when the train stopped at a grade crossing in the middle of a swamp in Georgia. We stopped laughing when the conductor told us WE were getting off there! When the train pulled out we saw that it was actually a town, with a freight station, three houses and a general store.
October, 1962
Our destination was Fort Stewart, a National Guard camp, where the First Armored Division was staging for the invasion of Cuba (Cuban missile crisis).
FYI, I do drive a 1976 AMC Pacer and I'm damn proud of it!
HEY, I used to have one of them. It was a very good car, IMO. Even though it looked like a mayonaise jar on wheels. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
i once owned a entire CORVAIR fleet & was a good mechanic !!
>>>>>>>U could work on em easy back den'.........!!
my favorite was the greenbrier van and lakewood wagon .....
Perhaps the Wright Brothers' plane...
But your handle is Fishbowl...that bus replaced an old classic design in service since the 1940s. Why would you select such a handle if you don't like new stuff...
Because now, even the newest American-made Fishbowls are antiques, and as far as I'm concerned, it was the best designed, most aesthetically pleasing bus of all time. They withstood the test of time, even in the roughest terrain (NYC streets). Sure, I like the Old Look too.
Santa Monica Municipal Bus Lines (AKA "Big Blue Bus") in California still runs some GMC Fishbowls, but they have been extensively rebuilt and re-engined.
Ido not know if their door design would allow the fitting of wheelchair lifts, though.
Yes, and they have bus #2180, the last GMC Fishbowl ever produced in 1986. Fortunately, from what I understand that bus is destined for museum status. Of course, I should really be talking about this on BusTalk. I just love fishbowls so much....
R-62As are hardly new, they are pushing 20 years old.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, but compared to the R-33's and 36's, I consider them brand new.
They're not.
Peace,
ANDEE
yyyyeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.......!
Maybe a good day for riding the WF redbirds because it has not been hot and humid over the last couple days. Once the heat and humidity build up this weekend, those R62As will come in handy. -Nick
have the R142s been removed from service? i heard they would be, because of some problems? this is regarding the bombardier R142
That statement (that the R-142s had been removed from service) was posted here about a week ago, and it was very, very wrong.
David
They're running in force on the #2 line. They'd have to. I don't think there are enough redbirds left to cover service should they be pulled.
Kinda as wrong as having a dispatcher run a train during an opeartor strike on the fulton el.
No R142s have been removed from service. A defect in Wabcos coupler/link bar has been observed and trainsets with said problem go to shop for immediate repair and return to RTO service. The myriad of other R142 problems are handled as a 'case by case basis' but no trainsets get removed from service. CI Peter
Is it true that when the cars pulled apart the computer still said that the train still had 10 cars. I would think that the computer will tell the T/O what had happen.
Robert
It'd make sense that "10 cars" would be shown if the electricals didn't separate. From what I heard, there was no BIE, so there was air hoses, and just a plain loss of power which would indicate that some electricals went, but not the whole shot. Chances are the hoses and the wires were the coupler in that event. :)
In the past months I have devised two plans for a Second Avenue line, but I have had problems choosing which one. Each line serves a vital part in this city, all I know is that the fleet for each train will consist of R143's and R160's(R44's and R46's if R160 isn't available when the next draft comes out). This is where you guys are needed. I need you to help me choose which plan is better, plan one or two, and which neighborhoods have more of a Nimby presence. If you don't like any one tell me what you think should be built.
Plan 1
This plan consist of 4 lines each with one branch serving 3 boroughs other than Manhattan. Each subway line is it's own branch and provides service to 3 major stations. Houston Street (Transfer for the V and F), 116 Street and Lexington Avenue (Transfer for the 4,5,6 and Metro north). The 2 Avenue line consists of
T 2 Avenue local serving West Staten Island
U 2 Avenue express Serving The Bronx
X 2 Avenue express Serving Brooklyn
Y 2 Avenue local Serving East Staten Island.
Here are some facts for these lines
T 2 Avenue local
Serving 40 stops from Lexington Avenue 125 street to Pleasant plains in south Staten Island. This will consist of 25 operating trains per hour to fill standard service to ease overcrowding from the Lexington Avenue line. The following neighborhoods will be linked to New York thanks to this subway line
Pleasant plains, Prince bay, Woodrow, Annadale, Arden Heights, Bulls head, Casleton Corners Westerleigh, Port Richmond, New Brighton area, Financial district (South Street area), Chinatown, lower and upper east side. Home yard will be in Staten Island south of St. George.
U 2 Avenue Express
Serving 25 stops from Gun Hill Road to Battery Park City which will consist of 20 operating trains (some terminating at City Hall) to fill a 5 minute per train order at rush hour.
The following neighborhoods will be linked to New York thanks to this subway line: Williamsbridge, Fordham, Tremont, Morrisania, The Hub, Mott Haven, The Upper and lower east side, Financial district (World Trade Center, Trinity place) and Battery park city.
X 2 Avenue express
Serving 24 stops from Lexington Avenue to Seaview Avenue which will consist of 20 operating trains to fill a 5 minute per train order (If you respond please tell me if I'm not wording this right) at rush hour. The following neighborhoods linked to New York thanks to this subway line are: East Canarsie, Starret City, East New York, Ocean Hill, Crown heights, Perk Slope, Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn Heights, Chinatown, lower and upper east side.
Y 2 Avenue local
The backbone of the whole line if anything goes wrong this line will have to carry the extra weight until normal service is restored to the extra line. This is due to the large number of trains serving this line. Serving 46 stations (Most in Staten Island) this line will connect the Staten Island railway to the rest of New York, and for the first time singe the Verrazano-Narrows bridge was open Staten Islanders have more than one way to get to Manhattan. From Lexington Avenue to Tottenville this line will require 38 trains to operate but due to the vast amount of trains on the other 2 lines serving Lexington Avenue 19 of those trains will only go to Manhattan. There are so many neighborhoods on this line I can only say a handful: Lower and Upper east side, Chinatown, Financial district, New Brighton, Fox hills, Dongan hills, New Drop, Richmondtown, Woodrow and Tottenville.
Plan 2 Adds service to Co-op City and Queens. A few things have changed in service but some of it is still the same. The 4 same lines still exist but serve all 5 boroughs.
T 2 Avenue local
Serving 44 stops from Ropes Avenue in the Bronx to Whitehall Street. Consisting of 26 trains per hour serving the following neighborhoods: Eastchester, Pelham Parkway, Baychester, West Farms, Morrisania, Melrose, Mott Haven, Chinatown, Lower and upper east side.
U 2 Avenue local
Serving 27 stops from Main Street to City Hall Consisting of 22 trains per hour serving the following boroughs: Flushing, Corona, Woodside, Sunnyside, Long Island City, Chinatown, Lower and upper east side.
X 2 Avenue express
Same as Plan 1
Y 2 Avenue express
Same as plan one but also serves west and East Staten Island with 52 operating trains per hour (only 26 going to Manhattan) and running express.
Sorry if plan one seemed more fuller than plan 2 but I was up all night doing this.
It looks like you are trying to build a four track main line, which while needed is not going to happen.
A rail connection to Statten Island is not very feasible, SIRT runs two ro three trains PER HOUR during the RUSH (The meet the boats) 25 trains per hour out there is rediculous. AND these are SHORT trains! They do not have the population density.
Here is My Plan. It is a modest plan with only a little embelishment on what the ta already has in the works.
Now I *have* considered new service to Staten Island, but Second Avenue has nothing to do with it. It would come in on the West Side Drive, and could have service down both the 9th Avenue and the 5th Avenue lines. On Staten Island we would co-opt the existing SIRT service (4tph) add the north shore (to meet the 4tph from Tottenville with an across the platform transfer, and two elevated lines up Liberty Avenue and Forest Aveneue which will have direct service into the tunnel.
Elias
Like the plans, one thing tho, the Q u have on 125th, what if another line ran through, a stop a Dowling Stadium/Randalls Is, then onto the N line back into Manhattan? Just a thought
Staten Island does have the population density for a subway, particularly on the North Shore and Mid-Island. Staten Island also grew 15% from 1990-2000, which makes it the fastest growing borough in the city. The transit has not kept pace with the population. Please also remember that Staten Island has 75% of the population of Boston and up to now, they have been treated like a suburb.
By the way, SI could pose NIMBY issues. But all you need to fix that is a little cash.
A better idea for the Southern Ends of the Locals and Expresses would be for all locals to terminate at Whitehall Street. The final express station in Manhattan should be Chatham Square, after which the express would go into a lower level, before turning off under Jeanelle Park under the East River. In Brooklyn, the line would follow Pierrepoint St, Clinton St, Hoyt St, then become the Fulton St Local. This would enable both A and C trains to run Express and Eastward Extensions to be made to the Fulton Street Line.
There is a whole new batch of deadbirds at 207th and I can see a tall white crane out by the water so I assume they have loaded the last batch onto a barge. The car numbers of the deadbirds that I could see are:
7842
7843
7930
7931
8745
8780
8781
9352
9353
And here is a photo [133k] of most of them for your viewing pleasure:
may they rest in peace
Amen brother.
That too
Wow, they are wasting no time. Oh, the humanity!
Looks like they're ready to head out to bermuda triangle.
"BYE BYE BIRDIES"
Well I guess everything comes around in its time. I remember being home with the flu i 1962 whenI lived i Highbridge at 169 & Merriam and my bedroom had a Harlem River view. Down river came a tug and barge, and on the barge were loaded a bunch of Low-V's heading for the great railyard in the sky (?) What you see in that photo was what was replacing the Low-V's. 40 years ago...it went by too fast. How long do I have to ride the redbirds? I'm hoping to visit NYC in late September or October. Hope there will be some for a while yet.
There will be. Definitly on the #7, and probably on other lines as well.
you say thank you by polluting the ocean with her ???
throw her away DUMP HER !!!!
??????????????????????
Why do MBTA commuter trains have gratings on the front windows? Did someone throw a rock at a train and people got hurt? If so when?
I think Boston is just a rough town and the MBTA is smart.
The gratings somehow got the name "Ghetto Grates" in the early years that they were installed.
Rocks, hell!! It was shopping carts and steel drums being dropped off bridges that led to the Ghetto Grates.
Not so much that people got hurt, but they got tired of replacing windows, and looking to prevent injury. THe assholes throwing things at trains didn't stop at rocks, either. I read a story about bicycles, shopping cars, baby carriages (empty, obviously) and all sorts of debris being rained upon the trains by the scum of the earth that live in Boston.
-Hank
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58054-2002Jul11.html
. . . also discusses geological causes for the persistent water leakage problems on the Red Line from Farragut North to Medical Center.
>>Water is eating away at the track bed, the power system, electrical components and steel girders that support fire pipes, communications cables and power lines throughout the subway tunnels. Mineral deposits left by dripping water have built up along the track bed, turning insulators into conductors and interfering with the flow of electricity from the 750-volt third rail to the trains.<<
Shades of the Nostrand Ave subway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
As everybody knows interest rates are at all time lows. Furthermore, as the stock market tanks, Bonds have become the current hot item, pushing yields down even further. Should American cities be using the current market conditions to sell bonds and raise needed capital for transit investments? Municipal bonds should be the hottent thing since slived pizze right about now. Are cities and states missing a potential boon?
YES!
Absolutely.
It should be noted that the US Treasury's auctions for T-Bills are attracting a lot of demand - so the interest rates the government has to pay for these is dropping too.
This is helping me - I have seen the rate on my one last outstanding student loan drop by half, because it is pegged to the 90 day T-Bill. My loan rate dropped again July 1. (I'm ahead on payments, which also helps).
I paid off my last fixed rate student loan (9%) some time ago.
Whoops, I need some sleep.
Most municipalities/public agencies are refinancing as fast as they can. However, when you issue bonds, you usually promise not to repay them before a certain date, or else no one would buy them. So there is some limit as to how fast you can redeem high interest bonds and replace them with low interest ones.
Also, long term interest rates (and most municipal bonds for capital projects are long term) haven't fallen as much as short term rates.
Got a question about service on the former Rockaway branch. Was going south to Rockaway park considered eastbound or southbound? I assume all LIRR trains leaving penn are eastbound. Were there service from Rockaway Pk to Far Rock?
There was the LIRR Rockaway Park service starting from the LIRR Main Line at White Pot Junction. The area just behind 63rd Drive on the IND. It went along side Woodhaven Blvd. I'm not sure if the correct term was Eastbound or Outbound.
After the line crossed over Atlantic Ave, it picked up some trains coming from the Atlantic Branch. Service kept going south. After going over Jamaica Bay it split off at Hamills. Usually trains would turn right and continue to B116 Street.
There would also be LIRR service that branched off the Montauk line at (I think) Lynbrook. Over what is now the Far Rockaway Branch. The Far Rockaway station was about in the shopping area between the current LIRR station and the current MTA Station.
The line would continue along the Rockaway Pennisula. Meet up with the Rockaway Beach line at Hamills and go to B116 Street. There was also a connection so that service coming from Far Rockaway go get to NYC without having to go around Nassau County.
I probably missed a few points. But I think I got the gist of it.
Yeah I'm gonna be heading that way tomorrow (Saturday) on the A train. It's too bad such a great connection from central Queens was severed. Now I have to go all the way to Manhattan and get the A train and then the shuttle at Broad Channel to B116.
No Q53 thanks to Wimpberg and the strike, so it'll be the A to the shuttle both ways. There will be a lot of waiting (A)while.
It really is a shame that the tracks from Whitepot junction to Ozone Park have been abandoned. A connection from Queens Blvd to the Rockaways would be great. My idea would be to have a new line called the P go from 42nd and 8th lower level to Rockaway Park, via Queens Blvd (local) and Rockaway branch. The V would be eliminated and the G would run to Continental full time. The A would still go to Far Rockaway, with changes at Rockaway Blvd to the P train to Rockaway Park. Yeah I know it's a fantasy but someday it might just happen. :-)
A simplier route would be to get to the Hempstead Hub via the bus from Sea Cliff and the take the N31/32 to Far Rockaway. From there you should be able to the Rockaway shuttle service from one end to the other. I am not sure how long it would take, but it would beat having to go all the way into Manhattan to meet up with the A train.
A simplier route would be to get to the Hempstead Hub via the bus from Sea Cliff and the take the N31/32 to Far Rockaway.
Of course it would. It's a pity the MTA doesn't do more to publicise LI Bus. I don't think there's even a Nassau County bus map online. If that is true that can only be described as pisspoor.
The LIBUS has always been the "step child" of the MTA group. Look how they pushed to get more people to use Metro-North train service by using commercial TV ads. Too bad they can't use a good advertizing agency that would somehow convince Nassau resident to leave their cars at home at take the bus service. My hope is that the new county executive Tom Suozzi will at some point push more transit issues on the board and more people to use the system to ease traffic congestion.
Funny you should say that about not finding a LIBUS map online. When I went to the MTA.info site, none could be found!.....I guess someone must think it not very important to have one online.....all I could find was the individual route maps, and not an overall system map.
Funny you should say that about not finding a LIBUS map online. When I went to the MTA.info site, none could be found!.....I guess someone must think it not very important to have one online.....all I could find was the individual route maps, and not an overall system map.
Maybe we should orchestrate a mass-complain at the MTA for this ;)
Also where are the neiborhood maps on the MTA website?
.....all I could find was the individual route maps, and not an overall system map.
What makes you think there *is* an over-all system?
I have some LI Bus and old MSBA system maps. They're not easy to find outside of Nassau and Suffolk. Probably the best place to get one in Queens is at the Bus Terminal at 165 St. You may have to be persistant. But you should be able to get one there.
Go to Hempstead transit center, ask the people in the booth for a map. You'll get one from 1994, but it's better than nothing.
And Jones Beach service is pitiful. The best run for me is the JB50 from Hicksville, but there's only 3 runs in the AM and 3 runs in the PM. And those buses get so packed with teens that some people cannot fit on, obviously there's a need for more. And I guess I'm not the only one who's not crazy about waiting for a bus in downtrodden Freeport.
That's why I almost never go to Jones Beach. Long Beach and Rockaway Park are much more transit friendly. Scary how Moses's ideas STILL keep alot of transit away from Jones Beach.
"That's why I almost never go to Jones Beach. Long Beach and Rockaway Park are much more transit friendly. Scary how Moses's ideas STILL keep alot of transit away from Jones Beach."
Jones beach , along with a good few other ares he designed higway in NYC and LI were never meant to be "bus friendly"
And that part of my big issue with Robert Moses, but going to behave and limit the comments on him
Qtd7 --
What's so bad about Freeport and Far Rockaway? I've waited for busses at both stations dozens of times and never had any problems.
CG
OOOOHHHH, many thing are soooo... bad to him:
He hates rich people.....he hates poor people.
He hates cold weather....he hates hot weather.
He hates tall people.....he hates short people (himself)
Need I go on?
Peace,
ANDEE
Main reason it is just longer to go that way. Well maybe not. Going to Rockaway park I had a lot waiting on the subway, so maybe next time I'll take the N32 route to Far Rockaway then a Q22, if the bus dispute doesn't end.
As for Jones Beach, it is better during the week when the N27 runs to Hempstead, then it's only 3 buses (N27,N40/1,JB62)
I just like the JB50 better over the 62 because it goes down Wantagh parkway which I like better than Meadowbrook.
"That's why I almost never go to Jones Beach. Long Beach and Rockaway Park are much more transit friendly. Scary how Moses's ideas STILL keep alot of transit away from Jones Beach."
Jones beach , along with a good few other ares he designed higway in NYC and LI were never meant to be "bus friendly"
And that part of my big issue with Robert Moses, but going to behave and limit the comments on him
Jones beach , along with a good few other ares he designed higway in NYC and LI were never meant to be "bus friendly"
Sounds good enough reason to take a lane in each direction off the highway and put a Trolley line in!
Robert Moses was definately "pro-automobile" in his day. The man never drove a car, he was always driven to where he needed to go. Yes, it would be great if there was better access to Jones Beach via mass transit. Maybe the LIBUS could get some the articulated buses or even double decker buses like they use in the UK.
Maybe the LIBUS could get some the articulated buses or even double decker buses like they use in the UK.
Or even trolleys!!!!!!!!! Gimme a PCC!!!
Will you buy a damn car already?
There is no shuttle from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park.
I'd have to wind up taking the A up to BroadChannel and the cross over for the shuttle.
I could take a Q22, but it doesn't run that often. Besides most N27 runs terminate at Roosevelt Field on Saturdays, so It'd be three buses just to Far Rockaway. Not to mention it's not a super area to be in.
It's just easier picking up the A train from Manhattan. Also due to a GO railfan window equipped E trains go through the 63rd street connector via the F (E trains run on the F between Roosevelt and W4th)and a rare ride on an E on 6th ave.
I guess I'll have to transfer to the A at Canal street (easiest).
I was thinking Jones Beach but I like Rockaway Park better, plus those LI Bus JB routes get PACKED with teens, not fun..
Fox 5 just said that the Queens bus strike may be over. If it is, I'll take the Q53 at least one way to Rockaway Park!
Got a question about service on the former Rockaway branch. Was going south to Rockaway park considered eastbound or southbound? I assume all LIRR trains leaving penn are eastbound.
As with most systems, the LIRR has/had only two directions--in the LIRR case, east and west. Rockaway Park was always east of Hammells.
Were there service from Rockaway Pk to Far Rock?
Apparently there was no regular Far Rock to/from Rock Park service from at least the '20s until the trestle burned in 1950. From then until LIRR service ended to allow conversion to the subway line, through service from through Valley and passing Far Rock to Rockaway Park.
Now outside of some of the track maps on this site, I haven't read any of the current Second Ave Subway Plans, but going back to the original IND second system plan I noticed a few problems. Why do we need a 2nd Ave Subway (2AS). Well, first to serve the ppl around 2nd Ave and secondly to relieve the pressure on the Lex which I have heard described as simply awful. The Second System planed for the 2nd Ave Subway to connect to a number of Bronx IND routes. In today's climate where getting 2nd Ave Subway funding is going to be a bitch and a third, I think there's about as much chance of getting both money for the 2AS and the new Bronk lines as Chist comming back to Earth and running around Times Square naked.
Therefore, I am proposing the idea of having the 2AS be a DUAL division route hosting both A division trains comming from the branch lines in the Bronx and B division locals and feeder connections. This could be done in one of two ways. The first would be to build a 4 track line w/ A division trains probably running express in the middle. Everything except the platforms would be built to B division specs so there would be no problem mixing A and B division trains at interlockings or in segments without stations. My second idea would have a 2 track line w/ each platform having a full legnth platform width extender or FLPWE. The rectangular extender would be covered in yellow plastic and sort of look like the joint on a flexi-straw. The platform would be interlocking into the signaling system to prevent B division trains from hitting it in its extended mode. T/O's would punch in their division just like their lineup and then proceed down the line. Special "wide car detectors" connected to signals could provide the final degree of safety. The FLPWE's would ne no more dangerous than and cost no more than your typical esclator or eclinator.
Any thoughts?
Um, the SDEIS for the 2nd Ave subway is nearing completion. You better call NYCT fast if you want them to see this.
You know very well that there have been many 2AS plans in the past and there will be many in the future. The Second Ave Subway will probably never be built w/in our lifetimes unless they plan to line the studies up end to end and then run trains in them.
The Bronx lines will be converted for 10 foot wide cars to feed into the 2AS.
Dual width cars is not practical from an operational standpoint.
Actually your idea was already thought of, and is a good idea. Originally the 2 Ave subway was to take over the Pelham, and I think the White Plains/Dyre Lines. There is no problem having the SAS be B division size, and doing this. All they have to do is shave off the platforms of the Pelham and WP lines. The els themselves can handle the wider trains. (on a similar note that the Astoria el was really built for IRT sized cars.)
This plan however would make the Lexington line much less important though, although it would still use the Jerome el. I feel they should only take over Pelham el though for SAS, as the WP el should remain IRT sized, otherwise the 7th Ave line would have no where to go in the Bronx either.
A surprising note to add though, on a similar note. I remember reading that the Lexington line north of Grand Central can actually handle BMT sized cars! Only the station platforms are a little too wide. There is no problem in the tunnels! And the same is true for south of Times Square on the 7th AVe line, and I believe east of Atlantic on the New Lots and Flatbush lines! It really is ONLY the original IRT subway, and the first extensions into Brooklyn (and the Steinway tunnels) that cause the problem for the IRT not being able to have BMT sized cars. I was amazed when I first read that!
The better way to mix A div and B div trains on the same platform would be with a gantlet track. from the platform, the rails would look like this:
A div 3rd Rail
A div running rail
B div running rail
A div running rail
B div running rail
B div 3rd Rail
Since you are building a new line it is cheaper, safer and more efficient to do it this wah then to consider moving platforms.
I might consider the same sort of arrangement even if it was only B division, but you had planned to skip a bunch of stations without building a four track wide tunnel, which apparently cannot be done because of the placement of some very large sewer tunnels along 2nd Avenue. An express could never pass a local doing this but by passing more than 20 inches from the platform, it would not have to slow down. Such an arrangement might give passengers from the Bronx a quicker ride to midtown, while ensuring that passengers along upper Second Avenue got a fresh train with seats and plendy of standing room.
Elias
yohh, thats smart. BUt how are you going to stop the third rail from stripping the underbody of the train? I understand it as
DivA rail
DivB rail
DivA rail
DivA 3rd rail
DivB rail
DivB 3rd rail
You can't have 2 third rails always! what about switches and turnouts? Also won't the thrid rail shoe melt (friction) if is was on the third rail for 3 to 4 miles?
Isn't that why they switch which side the thrid rail is on in tunnels?
No, I had it correct. The Third rails have to be on the outsinde, it cannot run under the b div train.
Yes, there would be a third rail on the platform side, but so what of it? You will find it that way in many palces.
The third rail will not melt. It rides for mile after mile on the LIRR and MN with no problem.
CI might tell us more, but the pans at least are made of carbon, the idea being that the pans will wear out and not the whole wire from NYP to WAS. So are not the shoes designed to be replaced? are they to made with carbon faces?
Elias
but even on lirr they switch sides.
If I understand correctly, you are putting forth two ideas:
1) A four track line, with A-Division express tracks and B-Division local tracks, or
2) A two-track line built to B-Division standards, but with extendable platforms to handle A-Division trains.
Idea #1:
There is at least on other instance I can think of in the subway system where A and B division trains run together along the same alignment. Between Atlantic Avenue and Grand Army Plaza, the BMT lines run as a super-express between IRT local and express lines. Pretty cool.
However, I am not sure the MTA would wish to repeat this scenario in modern times.
For the 2AS, the MTA would lose the flexibility that is inherent in a four-track alignment, as local trains could not be switched to the express tracks during the inevitable GO.
Also, the cost of upgrading a Bronx IRT line to B-Division standards might be considered worth more than the cost of lost flexibility and operational challenges.
Why not just build a four-track alignment all to B-Division standards, and capture a Bronx line, in the process converting it to B-Division?
The disadvantage is that the option of sending a Bronx train down either the 2AS or Lexington Avenue line is lost.
So really it is up to the engineers to decide where is the optimal need for efficiency if a 4-track alignment were to be constructed, which it is not.
Idea #2:
The second idea involves building a 2-track alignment, which is what will be built, if ever, and has extendible platforms. Again, the idea is clever because extendable platforms are used elsewhere in the system. The Lexington Avenue line in Union Square is an example. The Times Square shuttle stop is another.
However, both of these stations involve bridging a smaller gap usually present from the curvature of the platform. The technology works, but if a platform were not to extend and the train doors were to open, the gap could be stepped over with relative ease. However, the misalignment from an A and B division train might be considered too great. It is up to OSHA.
Yet the only purpose for such a dual-division system would (again) be to give Bronx IRT trains the option of heading down the Lexington Avenue line or the 2AS.
So while these ideas are creative, and certainly nifty from the (irrelevant) railfan perspective, I am just not sure if the flexibility is required.
MATT-2AV
However, both of these stations involve bridging a smaller gap usually present from the curvature of the platform. The technology works, but if a platform were not to extend and the train doors were to open, the gap could be stepped over with relative ease. However, the misalignment from an A and B division train might be considered too great. It is up to OSHA.
IIRC the misalignment is 6" on each side - i.e. not very much. A third alternative would be to put a step under the doors (like they did to the Q-Cars on the MJ Line) which would pass above the platfroms where they are A Division and would fill the gap on B Division platforms.
<< Any thoughts? >>
Yeah...you have way too much free time on your hands .
One time on the news they said a line would run express up Broadway, then 2nd Ave (this was before news of Manhattan Bridge renovation and the Qs switchover)
Who knows, the Q may get a Second Ave Broadway Express
Another suggestion, why not build 2 levels, 2 tracks each:
Upper Level Uptown, Lower level Downtown
one side Division A, the other, Division B
Below is a link to what the Second Avenue configuation is so far
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/2ndave/2ave-tr.gif
The ways the plans are sofar, looks like it will be a solely Division B setup (letter lines only)
One time on the news they said a line would run express up Broadway, then 2nd Ave (this was before news of Manhattan Bridge renovation and the Qs switchover)
Who knows, the Q may get a Second Ave Broadway Express
Another suggestion, why not build 2 levels, 2 tracks each:
Upper Level Uptown, Lower level Downtown
one side Division A, the other, Division B
Below is a link to what the Second Avenue configuation is so far
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/2ndave/2ave-tr.gif
The ways the plans are sofar, looks like it will be a solely Division B setup (letter lines only)
An architect friend of mine who I'm doing some freelance work for just bought me a digital camera this evening! It's a Fujifilm FinePix 2600Z with 2 megapixel resolution and 3x optical zoom. Nothing too fancy, but it will allow me to get out and take a lot more photos around town. Stay tuned for more of my handiwork!
Maybe I'll head out and get some photos of the Douglas 'L' reconstruction while I'm still here in Chicago...
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's EXACTLY the camera I have! You get a lot of stuff for the price (I think that's the only zoom camera for $300). Let me warn you that it's going to be tough getting clear photos underground or at night, I recommend you mess with the white balance and EV settings (in manual mode) to get what you want. I believe using the "3" mode in white balance will get a good picture, but wil look reddish. You can use something like Photoshop to adjust the color balance. OR, try finding something to prop or sey your camera aganist and the photo should came out great.
When you're outside in the day, the auto setting works just fine. So the Douglas photos should come out good.
If you have questions,let me know.
Congrats. I love my new digital camera (Toshiba PDR-M71) with all its manual modes and settings. Hopefully later this summer I will be creating a huge website of all my transit photos. Until then I have been submitting photos to Harry at nycrail.com
If you somehow get a chance to take pictures of anything interesting happening at IRM, especially work being done on electric cars, e-mail me the photos. We do everything digital anyway, and I can probably use them for "Rail & Wire"!
Frank "I Can Make You Famous" Hicks
Will do... Thanks.
I'll try to make it out there tomorrow, but it depends on how cooperative Citibank is willing to be at letting me use my ATM card (long story).
-- David
Chicago, IL
Frank, you may want to ask Dave Pirmann if you can reuse some of the IRM photos we sent him last year from the Chicago Field Trip. Lots of nice photos there.
I know Dave doesn't hold a copyright on those pictures but it would be appropriate to ask him beforehand, I suggest, since we sent them to him first.
I repeat my question again, where do the 4 tracks go after Euclic Ave?
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/pitkin.gif
They were supposed to go to 76 St., BUT 76 st. was sealed off, making the tracks go to Grant Ave.
And that was the whole point of the thread. There was to be a station at 76 St and a station at Grant Ave.
I have an idea, but you won't like it.
-Hank
To a wall. No-one knows what is behind the wall. Perhaps the Pied Piper of Hamlyn and all those children are behind it.
That map is wrong or at least misleading. A8 goes to k6 and a7 to k1. There is no spur.
I think the trackways are still there.
The 4 four tracks together, yes. The two hooks to the right, I have never seen them while I have been down there.
The 2 hooks were the yard leads that were going to 76 St station.
The problem is they don't exist. Or at least I have seen no evidence of them the half dozen times I have been down there. They are not on the official NYC track schematics either.
There aren't even bellmouths or any sign that they did exist and were torn up later.
the Pied Piper of Hamlyn and all those children are behind it.
Better call the DA, he might be doing something BAD in there!
>the Pied Piper of Hamlyn and all those children are behind it.
Better call the DA, he might be doing something BAD in there!
Heh - in this litigious age, they may well just do that if someone took my jest seriously and reported a strange man with bagpipes and a village-worth of children behind that wall... I could just about imagine a NY court ordering that they be rescued by shovel...
I think we should get the Money Train (the "invincible" one from the movie, not the real one) and ram it through the wall.
Warning: the following post is about as true as the existence of 76th Street station.
Nah it's a little known fact that some of the R1/9s were equipped with cannon, machine guns and full Sherman Tank armor in 1941 upon America's entry to the war, in case the Germans landed in the Rockaways... Blast through it with those - apparently they got "lost" in a certain yard in Washington Heights in a stock move when the AA Train finished...
I guess the answer is the same as last week.....to the wall, they were supposed to go to a planned station at 76th...blah....blah....blah, it may or may not be there......blah....blah.....blah.....no proof either way......maybe we should get Geraldo Rivera involved.....he did so well with Al Capone's safe.
Maybe. But I came up with a map this week. I did not draw it! And the map shows 4 tracks leading away from Euclid. Also there are 2 tracks from the yard that lead in the same direction. There is a wall at the end of the section. But it shows the route was to have continued. The route was started but never built. Part of the route that was built was sealed off. How much of the sealed off route was actually built, who knows? I still say there was a station behind the wall called 76 Street. Sealed off from the rest of the subway.
Please scan this map so we can all see it.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/pitkin.gif
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/pitkin.gif
And if you notice the map comes from nycsubway.com. If you don't believe the map, talk to Dave.
Was this suppose to be another line? from Euclid?
*sigh* There are tracks that lead to the 76 st. station after Euclid Ave. on the A/C Lines, but it was sealed off, diverting the tracks to the current next station Grant Ave. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over and over again.
I understood that part, but was asking if anyone knew what it was suppose to do after 76th, where else would it have gone
That was explained elsewhere. Including David's FAQ page regarding the IND Second System. But that route was never built. All that was built was 76 St. But it was sealed off since the route was not built.
You mean - you believe "All that was built was 76 St. But it was sealed off since the route was not built."
I think the only thing that is clear is that there is no proof of the stations existence. As much as we would all like to believe it is there, there would be some record somewhere if it really did. A few people on this board like to write as if the station exists, no maybe, it exists. I believe the majorty opinion here is that it does not exisit.
Maybe there is a tunnel of some kind after 76 St. When the IND first opened up the line to Rockaway Ave in 1936 there was tunnel built well ahead of it. How much was actually built, I don't know. I'm just talking about the one station. In about 18 months there will be some sewers built along Pitkin Ave and area. The local papers will mention what they find there when they start digging. I'll consider that the final proof.
No, you won't. The results will be against you, as all the other evidence we have given you is, and you'll just come up with some excuse as to why you're right.
Let's wait until they build the sewers. If it's there, it's there. If not, I'll admit you're right.
The tracks wre suppose to run out to South Jamaica[Springfield Blvd]
I understand your curiousity though, I started this post:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=309459
way before I even ever heard there may be a station there
N/T
What's that mean?
N/T probably means "Not There", a common synonym for the supposed 76th Street Station on the C Line East of Euclid Avenue.
N/T means "no text"... it's usually used at the end of the subject line of a message when the person is simply using the subject line itself for a brief message. Generally considered bad form; Dave has previously asked that we not do that here. In this case Andee was altering the subject line to a more appropriate one but had no further comments so he put the n/t in the body of the message.
Good guess, though... Not There is the truth of the matter!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wonderland, via the Yellow Brick Road express.
Just another piece of NYC subway that was planned, partually built abondoned and sealed off.
The same place the D1A amd D2A tracks go after Jamaica Center. Nowhere.
And D1A and D2A are supposed to go somewhere after Parsons/Archer. Based on the curve I see from the edge of the platform, over there, I'd say it was going toward Rosedale.
Yes. that is where they're supposed to go, to connect with the LIRR Montauk Line, but they go only so far, then stop, like the tracks towards 76th Street.
But that is exactly where the tracks were supposed to go. As someone said on an adjoining thread, something happened. A no-no about having RR and subway running on the same track and the funding from Washington D.C. was cut off. And the D1A and D2A tracks ended just after Parsons/Archer.
Oh okay, thank you, that was all
And if the route was built, One could take the E train to Green Acres Shopping center!
Doesn't the LIRR already stop over there already?
TA would have taken over the line from LIRR and ran their own train over there. A cheap way of getting to a LI Mall.
"…A 'cheap' way of getting to a LI Mall."
Think you hit the key word to why they didn't, remember the NYCT and LIRR are still under the MTA
Annoyingly sometime I think part of the reasoning behind not extending in Queens and other boroughs so they can squeeze just a little extra fare out of you (least definately pre Metrocard and free transferring bet bus & subway)
Two city buses now go to the Green Acres Mall, plus you can take Nassau County buses there (from Queens) on Metrocard.
The LIRR doesn't service any LI malls directly. The Babylon Line runs directly adjacent to the parking lot of the Sunrise Mall, but there's no stop there.
Looked at it a different way, maybe it's just as well. If really convenient transportation stops at malls, you're reinforcing mall culture and helping to kill downtowns (yes, LI has downtowns). Malls (with other factors) have harmed or killed downtowns on Long Island. Bay Shore, Patchogue, Hempstead, even upscale Garden City have been hurt by mall ocmpetition.
It stops near, but not at, the Mall. It's a bit of a walk from Springfield Blvd. You'd really need to take a cab or bus.
BTW, there is a Model Train store called Trainland in Lynbrook, LI, Is the Lynbrook station the closest to that store? Is there a bus I can take from Lynbrook Station that goes down Sunrise Hwy.?
It's a short walk.
-Hank
Hey! What you or I (who wlaked 3 1/2 miles up hill each way to school each day) call a short walk, a kid of today would think is at the other end of the known universe.
Well, I don't know if I still count as a kid (I'm 19), but I regularly walk distances of five to ten miles and think it nothing special (apart from the scenery and quite often the nice bits of disused railway).
Well, I don't know if I still count as a kid (I'm 19),
Hobbits do not come of age until 33!
But nowhere is somewhere, therefore they go somewhere, only that somewhere is nowhere.
My head hurts ...
The same place the D1A amd D2A tracks go after Jamaica Center. Nowhere.
Where were they meant to go after Jamaica Center?
They were meant to join the LIRR ROW and go on to Springfield Gardens, via the LIRR. There was also a branch that was to go to Queens Village I believe. Another grand plan that fiscal crisis in the 70's killed.
True, and an FRA crackdown on what they considered misuse of RR ROW by subway trains.
misuse of RR ROW by subway trains.
How the hell is that a misuse? Are you telling me the Bakerloo and Metropolitan Lines in North-West London conduct such misuses on a daliy basis?
There is some kind of law that subway/light rail, can't use the same tracks as conventional rail. There was some kind of discrepancy, even if they shared the same ROW, but not the same tracks.
Is there any point to this law? I mean, okay, it might be a bit silly running PCCs on the NEC, but what's the problem with R32 and R38s on the LIRR?
FRA crash standards are different. The fear is that a collision between a railroad train (eg LIRR MU or locomotive-pulled train) and a subway train would result in inordinate casualties due to greater damage to the subway carriages.
FRA crash standards are different. The fear is that a collision between a railroad train (eg LIRR MU or locomotive-pulled train) and a subway train would result in inordinate casualties due to greater damage to the subway carriages.
Evidently not too different - R44s run on the SIRR. Any passenger train crash can result in casualties - the point is that you make it just about impossible for a crash to happen. Two trains hitting eachother is a rare occurrence (a signal system designed by anyone with half an ounce of common sense would stop it), except, so it seems, on the approaches to London Paddington.
I wouldn't personally fancy an LIRR MU's chances against an Acela Express or a Conrail freight train - indeed, I'd suggest that it would probably be a worse result than an M1 and an R44 colliding.
"Evidently not too different - R44s run on the SIRR."
SIRR has a limited waiver and no other kind of rolling stock uses that line.
Actually they got the wavier in the late 80's early 90's. So before they did have to follow the FRA. Since the Northshore was closed and there is no rail link they got a wavier because they aren't connected to the system. THey got the R-44s the same time the subways got them.
They still do follow some FRA rules. The R44's on SIRTOA service have had some RR equipment modifications.
AFAIK, the FRA modifications were removed (grab irons, etc) were removed during an in-house GOH. They no longer have all the FRA required equipment.
Thanks for correcting me on that.
thats from the days they were required to follow FRA rules.
The two trains came from the same basic frame design.
>>>R44s run on the SIRR...<<
Yes, but SIRTOA recieves ab TON of waivers, IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
Subway trains are not inspected to FRA standards (I think that the only peices of NYCT equipment that are is the South Brooklyn Railway's N1 & N2 Diesel locomotives). By using the LIRR ROW, it wouldn't be a part of the LIRR anymore! The tracks can't be shared.
It seems like the FRA inspections have outlived their usefulness then. No-one is suggesting that subway cars are unsafe because they aren't checked by the FRA. Indeed they have to be safe because of all the litigation that would follow if they weren't. Perhaps the right thing to do would be for the LIRR to tell the FRA to sod off as it was part of NYCT now.
There are posters on this website who espouse this (see Philip Nasadowski's posts); on the other hand see Jersey Mike's posts for an opposing view.
I will try to remain neutral...
lol
"Perhaps the right thing to do would be for the LIRR to tell the FRA to sod off as it was part of NYCT now."
If the LIRR called itself a mass transit system rather than a railroad, it wouldn't be able to carry freight. This would choke the island even worse than it already is. The future of the Long Island economy depends on being able to divert more truck traffic to rail, rather than moving rail freight onto trucks.
If the LIRR called itself a mass transit system rather than a railroad, it wouldn't be able to carry freight.
Why? Couldn't they dream up a "Freight-LRV" or something?
To correct a drift in this thread:
It seems like the FRA inspections have outlived their usefulness then. No-one is suggesting that subway cars are unsafe because they aren't checked by the FRA. Indeed they have to be safe because of all the litigation that would follow if they weren't.
The issue isn't inspection issues or inherent safety per se. Some years ago the FRA got it into its head that FRA-compliant equipment and non-FRA-compliant equipment and services must not run on the same trackage. They have made exceptions in very narrow cases, such as on the South Jersey Light Rail, where the light rail can operate during most hours, and railroad freight can operate in the middle of the night, with something like an hour cushion between one service and the other.
This is an extreme position, but FRA has made it stick. It would be rather like specifying that heavy trucks and passenger autos couldn't operate on the same highway at the same time.
This could be resolved by making NYC subway equipment FRA-compliant, which would involve certain standards of construction and certain equipment, which is not now present on the subway cars. But it might go further than that, the FRA might require that T/Os that operate this compliant equipment on LIRR tracks might have to qualify themselves by FRA standards, which goes beyond the TA's requirements. Certain practices, like OPTO, might be prohibited. We might like that, but the TA wouldn't want to touch it.
So you can see this is a ball of wax that the TA doesn't want to get stuck in, for the sake of being able to extend a few lines.
Perhaps the right thing to do would be for the LIRR to tell the FRA to sod off as it was part of NYCT now.
No can do. First, the LIRR is NOT part of the NYCTA. The LIRR still operates under its original charter and is now a public benefit corporation under the MTA. It has nothing to do corporately with the NYCTA, except that both have a relationship with the MTA.
Secondly, the MTA already tried that gambit, saying that they were no longer subject to the FRA as a state agency, in order to get out from under FRA labor rules. The argument went all the way to the United States Supreme Court. The MTA/LIRR lost.
No can do. First, the LIRR is NOT part of the NYCTA. The LIRR still operates under its original charter and is now a public benefit corporation under the MTA. It has nothing to do corporately with the NYCTA, except that both have a relationship with the MTA.
The MTA could however change its structure.
Secondly, the MTA already tried that gambit, saying that they were no longer subject to the FRA as a state agency, in order to get out from under FRA labor rules. The argument went all the way to the United States Supreme Court. The MTA/LIRR lost.
The MTA should buy Penn Station by eminent domain, remove a few switches to isolate the LIRR and tell AMTRAK to **** off out of Sunnyside (I believe it is the LIRR's tracks!). NYP - BOS could be provided by MNRR instead out of GCT, so that the Hells Gate connection could be cut (at New Rochelle, with local stations added to the Hells Gate Line).
These are all fantasies. You're dealing with the Federal Government vis a vis Amtrak and also vis a vis the FRA. If you want to play hardball with the Feds, they have a bigger ball, and it is much harder.
As I said, the LIRR already tried to claim that it could unilaterally change labor rules, and the Supreme Court said:
"To allow individual states, by acquiring railroads, to circumvent the federal system of railroad collective bargaining, or any of the other elements of federal regulation of railroads, would destroy the longstanding and comprehensive uniform scheme of federal regulation of railroads and their labor relations thought essential by Congress, and would endanger the efficient operation of the interstate rail system." [emphasis added]
The court was unanimous, and notwithstanding some people's belief that New York is an independent socialist republic, the U.S. Supreme Court is the last word on the subject.
would destroy the longstanding and comprehensive uniform scheme of federal regulation of railroads and their labor relations
That would be the entire point. The federal regulation and labor regulations are the main problems.
Declare Independance!
In a way it's kinda surprising the "New York Redbird Party" hasn't happened...
tell AMTRAK to **** off out of Sunnyside (I believe it is the LIRR's tracks!). NYP - BOS could be provided by MNRR instead out of GCT, so that the Hells Gate connection could be cut (at New Rochelle, with local stations added to the Hells Gate Line).
NOT!
All of Sunnyside (apparently to New Rochelle) was always PRR track and was *never* owned by LIRR.
I suspect that only the sunnyside yards were conveyed to AMTK with its purchace of the NEC (Sunnyside being intergal to the operation of NPY) But Hellgate Bridge *might* have remained a CR property which would later have been taken over by the MTA.
LIRR Never Owned anything in Sunnyside or in NYP. MP Zero on the LIRR is EAST of Harold Tower. There is (or was) a marker or a monument of some sort at that point.
Elias
It would be interesting to do some historical digging. The PRR bought out the LIRR in order to gain access to the site of Penn Station. It seems that the PRR had the money, but the LIRR had the franchise. By acquiring the LIRR, PRR ended up with the money and the franchise. Voila! Penn Station.
Since Amtrak and LIRR are separate agencies, wouldn't it be fun if the LIRR could reclaim the franchise?
Since Amtrak and LIRR are separate agencies, wouldn't it be fun if the LIRR could reclaim the franchise?
Ouch! Lost in legal terminology - what would that do in practical terms?
LIRR had the franchise to build a New York terminal onthe site of Penn Station--i.e., permission.
The LIRR had the permission but no money. PRR had the money but not the permission. PRR bought the LIRR so that it would buy the permission as well. They had no great desire for the LIRR otherwise.
So if the legal permission still rests with the LIRR (still the same company as in 1910) what would happen if the LIRR, no longer with a legal relationship with the owner (PRR in 1910, Amtrak now) were to claim the permission as its own, and make Amtrak an illegal occupier of the station space?
I'm afraid the answer is that this issue was legally settled when the State bought the LIRR, but I can always dream... :)
and make Amtrak an illegal occupier of the station space?
Heh! PATH would really thank LIRR for the extra revenue!!!
I suspect you aren't actually being serious. But if you are, may I point out that passenger rail is in a tenuous enough situation in the US that it would just hurt everyone to have a real legal battle between two major passenger rail agencies.
I suspect you aren't actually being serious.
Damn, you noticed! I was enjoying playing the "FRA are f@$¢í$t ß@$t@rð$" line!
No. But this isn't Britain. It's the US.
Hopefully this thread does not grow large. There have been three threads on 76th St. already and I think I feel sick.
I think that the map shows it VERY CLEARLY!
The END RIGHT THERE! at a CONCRETE WALL.
FIN
: ) Elias
Hey... Wait a minute.... There is a SECRET DOOR here in the corner...
Its Unlocked.....
CREeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkk screetch.........
Darkness pours out onto the tunnel floor.....
Where is my YELLOW Flashlight.
>click<
Well what do you know... there *is* a tunnel in here....
I can'd se the end of it.
It is level and smooth, but there are no tracks in here.
Walk walk walk walk......
The floor is getting a little damp....
Hey! I feel a draft!
The tunnel seems to be curving to the right a little...
Yp! There is the end of it!
No wait... there is more over here to the left.
What the Heck!
There is a Rabbit down there, and he sems to be having a tea party!
LOL!
Except I read Stephen King and Lovecraft too much. I wasn't picturing a rabbit at the end of the tunnel...
Maybe those of you interested in this supposed station should write nice polite letters to MTA/NYCT. Then at long last we will solve this transit mystery once and for all. My guess is that nothing substantial is out there based on the lack of above ground evidence.
'nuff said.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are you just trying to keep this thread alive? We've answered your question time and time again and you just refuse to listen.
This is very True, I started this thread about 2 weeks ago, and had over 150 responses, we asked questions about the entire 76 st. Station from Rats to the tracks.
Then explain the map. The map is not mine. I did not print it. I took it from David's FAQ section. I don't want to draw David into this arguement. But it is his map. He put in the website and I'm pointing it out to everyone. If you don't want to believe his map then take it up with him.
The map doesn't show 76th Street, it shows the tracks dead-ending. What more is there to see?
The tracks were going in that direction. And there is the board at Euclid Tower. It shows a station at 76 Street. It was built as a special project. Like the upper level at Utica/Fulton St. But the route was never built. So it was sealed up.
Everytime I take the crowded B46 to Utica Avenue Station and look up at the provision I think of what could have been. Actually, a lot of people dont know thats why Utica Avenue is that large.
Just because it's on the board does not mean it exists. Haven't you ever seen a map with roads or railroads that were never built but were proposed?
If the station was there, they would not have sealed it, it would still be there. They need to go down and inspect if it isn't going to collapse. Since they don't, it's not there.
Well, it's more fun to argue than to do anything affirative to prove a pet theory.
If anyone really wanted to know, they can go to the NYC DOT section that handles streets. They would know (and have definitively mapped) any such large structure under the street. As Joe Brennan has pointed out, even the Beach tunnel wsa not "found," as legend had it. When they began building the BMT tunnel at City Hall, entering the Beach tunnel was first things they did, through an openly accessible grating.
And as you pointed out, something appearing on a map also proves nothing. I have a detailed blueprint of the Times Square terminal of the 42nd Street Conveyor Belt Line. Anyone ridden it lately?
Hello. Something strange has been happening lately. Every time my browser is on the Subtalk index page for about an hour or so, it reloads the page from scratch. Has anyone else experienced this? It is very annoying, and hopefully Webmaster Dave can figure out why this is happening and fix it.
- Lyle Goldman
I think this is a feature built into the script. It automatically refreshes itself after a certain time period (the default is 30 minutes) to display new messages.
As for why anybody would have the SubTalk message index page up for an hour at a time, I have no idea... How about doing like the rest of us, and surfing porno sites while waiting for new messages to appear? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
It appears to be intentional - the HEAD area of the generated HTML includes the line:
meta http-equiv="Refresh" content="3600"
Hmmm - something is interpreting the < and > tags in posts, so I can't show the above HTML as it should be.
More annoying to me is that for some reason IE6 isn't caching the index page and so every time I go [BACK] from a message, I lose the NEW tags. I've gone over this with Dave and it isn't anything obvious. If I ever get some free time I'll do some more digging and see why it is happening.
Now that is weird - the message preview doesn't render all HTML the way the real index does - the greater/less than symbols in my post showed up "spelled out" the way I wrote them in the preview box (ampersand/l/t/semicolon) but interpreted in the actual display. Plus, the text at the end of "HTML as it should be" says "This text should not be visible" Weird.
Well that's probably just a bug. Not a high priority to fix. Sorry.
I see now that when you preview and return the text is gone.
That depends on your browser cache, among other things.
-Hank
Well this type of problem never happens to me, because I don't stay on SubTalk for more than a 1/2 hour, actually I'm on here most of the day, but I don't leave SubTalk on Browser for the entire time.
If you're curious, an online interview with your webmaster conducted by The Morning News (the website, not the show Bryant Gumball used to be on) can be found at
http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/people/kevin_walsh.shtml
The proper subway content can be found therein.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin ... there's a book I just got at Costco that I really like with a title close to "New York 1960: An Architecutral Look at NYC From 1960 to the bicentennial" (though it really seems to cover the mid-50s to the early 80s). It's huge book (1200 pages) and you can slip a disc carrying it if you're not too careful, but it seems like it's just up your alley. It cost me about $20.00 and I think it's WELL worth the price. It was printed in 1996, I believe.
Robert Moses is mentioned in it quite a bit and there was even a paragraph on the proposed late '50s conveyor replacement for the TS-GC Shuttle (which I'll add to my history of the shuttle). It even had an entire chapter on the 1964/65 World's Fair.
There are HUNDREDS of pictures on buildings, most which were built around that time, but others that are older.
There is also some subway content in it as well, though by far this book is not about the subway in any way.
--Mark
Story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-07-12/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-157214.asp
So far, much easier transfer between Pacific Street and New Lots/Flatbush bound local without going back down and up the staircase like before, which is nice
Have u ever tried transfering or just getting out of the station from the Lexington Line? The staircases are wider now, but deeper by the numbered lines
I apologize, but this story is too cute (get a life?) to not post...
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/sns-ap-7-11-wedding0712jul12.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dtop%2Dutility
You're correct on two counts: 1) It is cute; and 2) It is off-topic.
1. E train stays as is, but is increased to 18 THP.
2. F train is rerouted thru 63rd St after 36th St 24/7.
3. The G train is truncated to Court Square.
4. A new line, (let's call it the V) runs local in Queens, switches to the 53rd st tunnel, then runs along 6th Ave into lower Manhattan and perhaps Brooklyn.
Advantages: Gives the 63rd St. tunnel a reason to exist, routes a heavily used line (F) away from the equally heavily used 53rd. St stations in Manhattan, it gives Queens Blvd. local riders an additional Manhattan bound route which now will take them directly to stops on 53rd St, and it enables Queens Blvd local riders who need G service to Brooklyn only a 1 train transfer at Ely Ave from the V.
After exhaustive study, I cannot think of a better way to use the new li......oh wait, that's what the TA is currently doing.
Never mind ...
{sarcasm mode:OFF}
I agree. At first I thought the new pattern was dumb, but you have to work with what we have. The 63rd connection is not the grand plan it once was, that was lost years ago, but since it was partially built, the connection they made was the best they could do with the funds available, and the routing they are doing is the best they could do with the connection as it was built.
Yeah I also think the current plan is the best (for now).
If the entire IND second system was built, then the tunnel would be able to do more. But for now the TA's plan is the best one.
I agree. Like GP I originally thought that sending the F through 63rd Street wasn't a good idea, but now I admit that with the resources available, this is the best routing plan (for now).
Until 2nd av opens up south of 63rd.
If we all live that long......
This idea sounds both reasonable and effective. I wonder why people like you don't work at the MTA...
The man can't handle what I'm dishing, man.
WAIT! don't forget that Some E trains come from 179th, just for the Hillside passengers headed to 53rd!
Brilliant! I wonder why the TA never thought of that.
I use them! I know of one that leaves 179 at 3:17 pm every day.
A great idea. By the way, pre-December the E was 12 tph and the F was 18. Now both are 15 (with 3 Es coming from Hillside).
Can the WTC stub handle 18 TPH? What if the tracks were extended south (since there's nothing to block it anymore)?
You know,I've always said that.It makes perfect sense to join the 8th ave local tracks to the Bway line at that location. it opens up a whole world of new possiblites for thur routing,just like the the Dekalb/Rutgers link makes penty of sense....
As discussed about 6 months ago, joining the E to the R under Chuch St would be a major construction effort. You don't want a grade level crossover. But the E and R are 1 level down, and the A crosses underneath both of them 2 levels down, so you'd have to go 3 levels down to put in a crossover. Very ugly and expensive.
Nothing has changed south of the E terminus. You have Church St just as you always did, with the N/R coming in from the east within less than a block.
I guess you could build some curved tail tracks curving into the former cellar of 5 WTC, but that would dramatically interfere with the retail space that the PA is contractually obliged to restore.
The thought just struck me that the IND 2nd System was supposed to include a branch off the 8th Av IND after Canal St, running under Worth St, East Broadway, through an East River tube to South 4th Street. Was this supposed to branch off where the E train currently does, or was there somewhere else left to connect it? Presumably it was meant to connect into the Local tracks.
If you ride a southbound E train (I know, that entails more than a swipe of the MetroCard for you) and stand at the railfan window, you'll see a turnout to the left just after the local track drops down a level to clear the express tracks. That's it. I'm not sure if there's a similar turnin (is that a word?) onto the northbound track.
On the northbound local track just before Canal Street there is a turnout (turnin?) there.
. E train stays as is, but is increased to 18 THP.
2. F train is rerouted thru 63rd St after 36th St 24/7.
Does the increased service on the E train come at the expense of decreased serice on the F? Currently they are running 15 E's and 15 F's. Are you suggesting 18 E's and 12 F's?
I think he thought that pre-12/01 there were 15 Es and 15 Fs rather than 12 Es and 18 Fs.
I thought it was 18 E/12 F. But from looking at the schedule again, it looks like 15/15.
"E train stays as is, but is increased to 18 THP"
Is the E train really running at 18 tph? Last I heard, it was 15 for the E and 15 for the F. Also, I thought Parsons Archer couldn't turn more than 15 tph anyway.
Per the official Weekday timetable, it's currently 15 E (12 Jamaica Center and 3 179th Street) and 15 F in the peak hour.
David
Yesterday was interesting but I'll skip right to the best part. I was coming back from buying film downtown and I got off the subway at my station at 4:00 where I bumped into a friend of mine who was waiting to meet someone else.
We started talking and a little later a teenager came barreling through the mezzanine level of the station to the fare collection area at top speed untill he tried to go through one of the exit turnstiles at full speed without pushing the spinning part with one of his hands and he became ensnared in it. However, it probably is kind of difficult to spin a turnstile or disentangle yourself from one if your arms have been handcuffed behind your back.
About 10 or 15 seconds later, one Transit Patrol constable followed, also at top speed and nabbed the teenager who had just finished freeing himself from the turnstile and had just exited the fare paid area, forcing him to the floor and sitting on him while the second constable (they always function in teams of two, occasionally more) took a little more time arriving, having been run out of breath during the chase. They then took the teenager they arrested, what transpired in the station to lead to this is something I don't know right now, back into the station and presumably to the real police who have a station located across the street from the bus bays.
What I find particularly puzzling is that the teenager was actually able to get away from the transit patrol constables after being arrested and handcuffed, and then put a good 10 to 15 seconds distance between himself and them at top speed. Either the constables were careless in some way to have allowed the kid to escape or the kid was very 'innovative', for lack of a better term. Also, this kind of high speed chase through a crowded subway station during rush hour is quite dangerous for obvious reasons, although I don't know if any of it took place on the subway platform where the danger factor would be at it's greatest. It does quite clearly show that the use of handcuffs isn't the conclusive be all and end all of officer and public safety the way many people believe - the correct handling of an arrested person is of the most importance regardless of whether or not they are handcuffed (after all, someone can try to run for it before they're handcuffed when policy requires their indiscriminate use).
Lastly, assuming for the moment the teenager made a clean exit through the turnstile and successfully got away from the Transit Patrol constables, how would he explain and get out of the handcuffs?!
Definitely an interesting day.
-Robert King
Ever try running at top speed wearing 40-50 lbs of equipment around your waist?
You do have a point, though. Cops need to stay in good physical shape.
Sometimes endurance is enough. I was once chasing someone (it was a game) in high school. I was significantly slower than he was. However, while he sprinted like a rabbit, he got tired after 2 blocks. I kept up my top speed for several blocks while he tired out and slowed down. So I caught up to him.
running at top speed wearing 40-50 lbs of equipment
One of the physical tests in the Army was to run 100 yards carrying someone of equal weight.
Don't even ask what FDNY has to do.
Yes indeed.
Approximately a 125lbs load three flights just to pass the physical. Real-life load is typically heavier.
-Hank
All good points. Yes, I've had to run at full speed loaded down with equipment although not as much as 50 pounds of it.
-Robert King
---
Ever try running at top speed wearing 40-50 lbs of equipment around your waist?
You do have a point, though. Cops need to stay in good physical shape.
Sometimes endurance is enough. I was once chasing someone (it was a game) in high school. I was significantly slower than he was. However, while he sprinted like a rabbit, he got tired after 2 blocks. I kept up my top speed for several blocks while he tired out and slowed down. So I caught up to him.
Now that I think about it, the kid who had been outrunning the special constables untill hitting the turnstile had his backpack on and it looked like it was reasonably full so this levels the playing field somewhat between him and the constables, in terms of weight being carried. I find it odd that they handcuffed him with his backpack on - certainly could cause unnecessary discomfort which can be a headache for the arresting officeers later if accusations of police brutality surface and, in my opinion,a bit of an unnecessary risk since there could be a weapon of some sort in it. Personally, I was one of the special constables in that situation, I'd remove the backpack, cuff the kid, have one person handle the kid and the other split between handling the kid and carrying the backpack, just for safety.
Oh well, this wasn't my problem and it isn't an every day occurance on the TTC so...
-Robert King
You're right. It does sound like they missed a step or two. What does the police manual say? (You don't have to look it up, I'm just wondering)
"...have one person handle the kid and the other split between handling the kid and carrying the backpack..."
The cops don't often worry about carrying a suspects possesions, here in NYC, after they search what you were carrying, they most often toss it in the nearest garbage can. They don't want to be bothered. If a claim about the backpack is made later, the response is inevitably "What backpack, you didn't have any backpack!"
OKay so this was not in NYC, but we have had our own problems with escaped criminals.
They say it's best to remove the backpack and sit on top of the suspect and to double-lock the cuffs. It's rough on the suspect, but it's a better way of preventing escape.
Transit Patrol Constables????? Real Police????
I have to assume this did not happen in NYC. Because our NYPD Transit Bureau officers are the real thing.
Since you did say subway and not underground can I be safe to assume you are in Toronto?
Note: This is why I always say that if you are posting about a system other than NYC's make mention of the system you are talking about. It helps to give others a point of reference.
The word "constable" is used in Canada and the UK to mean full-fledged police officers, not like in the U.S. where it usually means a rural law enforcement officer with much less authority.
Mark
I'll reply to both posts here. Yes, this is Toronto. The TTC's private security service, the Transit Patrol is staffed by 'Special Constables' which, under local law, are not real police officers but have police powers that are limited to specific geographic areas. In the case of the TTC's special constables, this would mean TTC property and vehicles. Off TTC property and vehicles, the police powers that they have no longer take effect and they have the same powers of arrest and law enforcement etc. that an ordinary licensed security guard or citizen would have.
-Robert King
There is no way for an adult to out run a kid, unless the adult is in partcularly good shape. If the kid were to try to run away from me, he would probably be in New Jersey before I could get up the steps.
On the ohter hand, if I were holding on to him, he could not have run or carried me very far! : )
Hehehehehee.....
Don't be punching or hitting the kid, you might get into trouble.
Elias
Escaping from the police has become a sport here in NYC. So far this year 18 suspects have gotten way while in police custody (actually 17, one murders suspect who was shakeled and cuffed, escaped from officers of the Manhattan DA's office). And not just from the officer trying to make an arrest. One suspect was in the precinint in a locked interegation room. He jimmied the lock and walked out the front door. He is still on the lam. Another suspect was in court and he climbed out a bathroom window and went down a drain pipe.
Ever since Wimpberg took over, the tight ship that Guiliani created is just falling apart.
I hope the "bad old days" aren't returning, but it sadly seems this way.
Hey, let's be realistic. Guilani did some good. No doubt there were a significant number of career criminals who needed to be put away. But we should not be too quick to forget Diallo and Loumia. Guiliani's mind set contributed to those cases of abuse. The police need to do there jobs, AND at the same time need to respect the rights of all citizens. Just becasue someone has be ACCUSED of a crime (or a cop merely suspects someone may be up to no good ie, a minority walking around in a rich area or a white guy walking around in a minority area) doesn't mean the constitution has been suspended.
Let's withhold the sainthood for Sir Rudy for a while AND give Bloomberg a chance. I didn't vote for him, but I think he will be a very good mayor. He is willing to meet with representative from all communities (unlike his predecesor, who dismissed anyone who didn't agree with him and felt disagreeing with him was a traitorus act) and seems to respect many points of view.
Let's do what they do (or wish they could)in other countries. Tanks and artillery rolling down the street, checkpoints with machine guns and dogs everywhere, pass through an x-ray machine to ride the subway (a la "Total Recall"), DNA fingerprinting to make sure your DNA is valid (a la "Gattica"), your brain wired into the Thought Police by way of a lap top...
Once again, a legitimate post becomes an excuse for flight of thought responses unrelated to transit.
Geez, even I'm doing it now!
Hey if Rudy could have had a third term, you never know!
Well I dunno what the heck is going on with all these escaped criminals (every day there's another one). Ever since Wimpberg got into office NYPD's morale is slipping.
Just don't want the "bad old" days to return, but they might if this keeps up.
how would he explain and get out of the handcuffs?!
If you're cuffed in a manner where you can work on them (meaning hands in front of you) or you can get someone to help, it isn't particularly hard. Of course, if you have a key with you, you can uncuff yourself relatively easily even if your hands are locked behind you, unless the person who put on the cuffs took extra care (double locked and both keyholes up).
Cuffs can be regular locked (they will continue to ratchet tight if squeezed) or double-locked (can't open or ratchet tighter). Double locking is normally done by pushing a pin on the end of the key into a hole on the edge of the cuffs.
The lock mechanism is actually pretty simple, though for the inexperienced I'd suggest using a large screwdriver or tire iron through the slotted part of the frame (popping the hinge) rather than trying to pick the lock. This is likely to leave some ugly bruises, though.
Note: before I get grief from folks saying I'm helping bad guys escape, the purpose of cuffs is to temporarily restrain people and make sure they don't do anything with their hands. That's why for speed, or in large groups, cable ties are also used. If someone has a tire iron on their person, I'd say they weren't searched sufficiently 8-)
Yes, I know this having had some training. You should also mention that a) handcuff keys these days are standardized for the most part and b) they're widely availible and 'unregulated' in terms of purchase, too. But I think it's a safe assumption most teenagers don't have this kind of information.
-Robert King
Double-locking is done to prevent the cuffs from getting tighter on the wrists and cutting off circulation.
I was talking to a Dispature at 71ave yesterday and he told me that one R143 had a pull apart at the Draw Bar the other day(I could not get the exect day, I was running late to work at Court Sq.) I will see him again today and try to find out when it happen, or dose anyone know about this. He said that the R143 are still running becouse the shop can only handle one train at a time.
Robert
Robert,
Please forgive me for correcting you but the word is DISPATCHER not Dispature.
Allan
I am a bad speller, That for the help. I sould type what I want into Wordperfect and Cut and Past it her like I di once before.
Robert
Damn they are just having all kinds of problems with the R-143s! Pull aparts, doors that won't open, unexplained emergency brake activations......I think the trains should be sidelined and more "out of revenue service" testing be done. They still have a lot of bugs that seriously need working out. And if these trains do this once CBTC comes online, there's lots of problems ahead as far as service.
You got that right brother! But I tell you one thing, I bet many years down the road, the TA will alter them cars just like every other piece of equipment they own. Just to get it to run right. Look at the R-44/46 cars. Break-a-parts... That's serious stuff.
Peace
David
Pull Apart: a condition in New Tech where the retaining sleeve was screwed down in the Wabco coupling linkage but a crucial locking pin was not installed during assembly. My buddy Vincent used to say, "EES OK, you no worry, ees new train, you no have to fix, ees OK." EVERY R142, R142A and R143 MUST be inspected for evidence of the pull apart pre conditions. You cannot see the missing pin but you can see the conditions which give it away. More evidence that TA got trainsets improperly assembled and pre-inspected before acceptance. HAHAHAHAHAHA MADE IN USA. Vincent, I worry. CI Peter
That sounds VERY similar to the R-142 story from last week. Is it not possible that we're seeing the end result of a game of "Telephone," in which someone said that a train of R-142s pulled apart, and by the time the story got to "Robert" from the Dispatcher it had magically turned into a train of R-143s?
If anyone has facts in this case, I know I'd be interested in reading them here, and I'm probably not the only one. (BTW, I'm not blaming "Robert" here -- he's just reporting what he heard.)
David
Dispature? Is that French? As of this 1PM today, there have been no pull-aparts on the R-143 fleet. Sounds like the dispature is a but confusee.
Aw hell ... there ya go again confusing us with FACTS. :)
I'm rootin' for the 143's. Granted, I'm no car inspector but I was pretty impressed by what I saw inside and undercar when I spotted them. Pretty nice ride actually, and given what goes for subassemblies these days in many railcars, they looked pretty well built to me for what little that's worth. Only complaint I have is the location of the controller - I can see that being a REAL pain in the "arm" for many.
Dispature? Is that French? As of this 1PM today, there have been no pull-aparts on the R-143 fleet. Sounds like the dispature is a bit confusee.
Dispature de la missing fabricature....New Tech uses Wabco couplers and any trainset missing the locking pin from the retainer sleeve is eventually going to pull apart...like CINNABUNS. Maybe trainsets marked 'Fabriken auf Allemagne' might hold up better.
Gluestick and printer works wonders...www.engrish.com CI Peter
On Saturday, June 29, my family and I flew to NY for a surprise wedding shower for my daughter hosted by her future mother-in-law in East Northport and bachelor party for my future son-in-law at Sunken Meadow. Some railfanning observations:
1. Flying in to JFK with Jet Blue. Pilot announces that winds in NY are from the northeast....this means flying in over Rockaway. Skies are clear. When we get there, great view of the Hammels Wye off left side and....yes! an A train coming off the draw bridge pulling into Broad Channel.
2. Later that afternoon (6-7 pm?) going from Sunken Meadow to East Northport, we drive down a street called Town Line Road. About to pass under a classic, single track trestle on Port Jefferson branch. Suddenly, a train with about 3 bi-level coaches and diesel engine passes by westbound...going about 60 mph...in reverse! Who knew? (Only my fourth time in Suffolk County.) Is this normal? Is this SAFE?
3. Sunday morning, returning to JFK...LIRR passing on viaduct over Belt Parkway at the Laurelton curve. My kids remark that they are amazed at what makes me happy.
Later that afternoon (6-7 pm?) going from Sunken Meadow to East Northport, we drive down a street called Town Line Road. About to pass under a classic, single track trestle on Port Jefferson branch. Suddenly, a train with about 3 bi-level coaches and diesel engine passes by westbound...going about 60 mph...in reverse! Who knew? (Only my fourth time in Suffolk County.) Is this normal? Is this SAFE?
Westbound LIRR bi-levels usually operate with the cab car leading. It's perfectly safe, as far as I know, don't see why it wouldn't be.
By the way, how did you like JetBlue?
Cab-leading trains are very common. Amtrak's San Diegan (the Surfliner now) does that, the Coaster does it, NJ Transit does it. I think Metrolink does it.
MBTA commuter rail also has push-pull service. The control cab always points "inbound" to South or North Station. This is so the diesel fumes are not in the semi-enclosed terminals.
Maximum allowable speed in either push- or pull-mode is 80 mph, which is achieved only on the Attleboro/Providence Line between Ruggles and South Attleboro. Most other lines are limited to 60 mph.
SEPTA also runs push-pull with its AEM7 motor/Bombardier coach sets. The one in the linked photo was pulling into Trenton, and later pushed back to Philly.
So does CalTrain out here. The 4th and King stop is not enclosed, but northbound trains are cab-control car first (they do allow passengers in the first car :) )
Interesting predicament happening for a while, though, weekend service is going to be eliminated for 22 months as they do rail work and the installation of bypass tracks to allow for "Baby Bullet" service from SF to SJ
taken from the caltrain site:
<The RRX, Caltrain's alternate bus service, will operate for the duration of the CTX construction project, which is expected to last approximately 22 months.
The route will operate both northbound and southbound, originating on Caltrain's regular weekend schedule and serving the San Francisco, Hillsdale, Palo Alto and San Jose Diridon stations. The last schedule on this route will depart the terminal stations at 8 p.m.
Caltrain also will offer express bus service to weekend Giants games at Pacific Bell Park. The baseball bus routes - BB1, BB2 and BB3 - will operate at or near 15 stations along the rail corridor. The buses will arrive at the park 45 minutes before the game and depart as they fill after the final out.
Passengers are required to have a ticket to board the bus. Tickets will be available from ticket vending machines located at stations. Tickets also can be purchased weekdays at staffed stations or Caltrain headquarters in San Carlos. Cash fares cannot be accepted onboard buses.
Train service is being temporarily eliminated to accommodate much-needed rail upgrades. The CTX construction project will include work to complete the Millbrae station, modernization of the signaling and switching system between San Francisco and San Jose and laying bypass tracks to accommodate future Baby Bullet express service. >>
I know it's a little off-topic, but it's interesting because it's going to be down for so long!
chuchubob already said it, SEPTA uses these with their AEM-7 and also their one existing ALP-44 electric locomotive (engine #2308). Typically, it's the R7 Trenton express runs and the R5 Malvern/Thorndale express/limited service that sees these, though some have occasionally wound up on the R3 Media/Elwyn and West Trenton side, and even a few R2 Warminster trains.
NJT Also has some AEM-7 locos somewhere. Mostly, all I see from them are the diesel cabs on their NECL express runs and the Atlantic City Line, with their MUs covering most other service. Granted, I've never been on most of their northern lines, but I know the North Jersey Coast Line uses MUs frequently.
Amtrak.... need I say more?
VRE is push/pull only, though it's all diesel. For some strange reason, there is no catenary south of Washington, DC, though the railroad bridge over the Potomac River looks to have poles that could once have supported wires. But, in Arlington and Alexandria and further south, no evidence of canetary at all.
MARC also uses push/pull equipment. Again, it's a massive diesel restriction; only the Penn Line (Perryville/Baltimore to DC) uses electric locomotives, there is no catenary on the Camden Line or Brunswick Line. Again, I've no clue why.
"NJT has AEM-7s somewhere?"
Ok, they're ALP-44s, probably the Septa Alp-44 (thanks for the number), was spun off that order.
How bout taking a quick trip on the R7? Connect to the NJT NEC line at trenton, if you don't catch an ALP-44 pulled train right off the bat, sit on the left of the train, you'll see one before New Brunswick I'd bet. If you make it all the way to around Newark without a single ALP sighting (and manage to miss those out by MMC, but that's on the right), just ride all the way into Penn, there should be a Midtown direct train to Summit, Gladstone, or Dover sitting out, and NJT does not restrict platform access, so go look away. I would recommend a trip out to dover if you have the time, morristown may actually be better, since there you can see the M&E C430s (A pair of only 16 such engines).
BTW, these push pull trains make like 90 or so on the NEC, backwards and forwards. I know that they largely keep the schedules of the Arrows.
VRE is push/pull only, though it's all diesel. For some strange reason, there is no catenary south of Washington, DC
PRR put up the catenary, and they did not go south of Washington.
They may have gone across the bridge to a yard, much as they do/did at sunnyside. But that is it.
No wires in the south, the Rednecks might try to get free powe for their trailerhomes.
Elias
rednecks will be running around on fire if they like to play with 11 KV. Also their TVs might not work because of the 25hz.
What was the Jeff Foxworthy joke? TVs sitting on top of other TVs not working? Oh well, it'd be cool to see them all burst into flame!
There's no catenary on the Camden/Brunswick/Frederick lines because they are ex-B&O lines. The B&O pioneered railroad electrification in the 1890's - with DC third rail. That, and the Staten Island line were B&O's only electric operations. Now that CSX (the We HATE Passengers line) owns all of it, there's no chance of electrification, even if Maryland is willing to pay for it.
NJT does the same thing as MBTA -- diesels always on the west end to avoid fumes building up in Hoboken.
NJT does have an exception, though -- the first Monday morning Hoboken bound train on the weekday only lines runs with the diesel on the head (eastbound) end in case they need to do some heavy duty clearing of debris that build up over the weekend.
CG
What does Amtrak's "Downeaster" do?
What does Amtrak's "Downeaster" do?
It makes four daily round trips between Portland (Maine) and BON.
I meant, does it turn in North Station or is it push-pull. If the latter, how?
I was very satisfied with Jet Blue.
>>>>...going about 60 mph...in reverse! Who knew? (Only my fourth time in Suffolk County.) Is this normal? Is this SAFE? <<<<
YES, it is normal and safe. There is a T/O or engineer in the front, piloting the train. It is not a *BLIND* operation.
Peace,
ANDEE
I saw the movie on Wednesday.
The first train that is shown is a Redbird on an express line at a station signed as St-Broadway. A pillar blocks the street number. The next train is an R32 (presumebly on the same line) with 3674 at the head. An alien eats up the all but the front of the first car. The train then pulls into the "81st Street/CPW" station, but it is a large station with more than 2 tracks. I think it was Hoyt-Schemerhorn but the tiles were yellow and maroon. When Will Smith exits the subway, the enterance says the right statoin name with font sizes and all, but the line bullets are for the A and C. When Will Smith nurealizes all the passengers on the train, he first tells them they are all typical New Yorkers and don't listen until they have to (he orders them to the front car but they don't listen), then nurealizes them again and tells them "Thank you for riding your smaller, more energy efficient subway car."
MIB 2 was funnier than the first one but was not as good. I still reccommend it.
I will return to SubTalk on a regular basis in 10 days. Until then, enjoy my limited posts.
I've been hearing quite a bit of talk lately about the status of the WTC site,and what would be done with it..now I'm asking you guys[only the people that are knowledgeble of the facts,not speculation]what will be done as far as transit aspects.
the Lower Manhattan Redevelopement Corp. wants a major passway similar to that of Times Square that would connect all the Subway Lines in Lower Manhattam with the Path, Possibly L.I.R.R. and New Jersey Transit. So far the MTA likes the idea and will follow suit if funding is provided, and is expect to take place.
The thing about the L.I.R.R. is that there isn't any way for it to get into manhattan. They were talking about taking over the Cranberry St. tunnel, but realistically, you can't inconvenience 150,000 subway riders for 10,000 commuters.
That's not what they're talking about.
A new PATH terminal would have a convenient pedestrian concourse linking it to other subway lines.
LIRR passengers will have to be content with Penn Station; however, once the GCT station opens via the 63 St tunnel, service to Penn will be upgraded.
There is some talk that the permanent PATH terminal may be moved eastward to make it connect better with the Fulton St/Bway-Nassau complex.
At this point the main concentration is on the rebuilding of the present station in a temporary mode. I think what is to become permanent will be dependent on whatever the final overall rebuilding plans finally turn out to be.
That's correct.
I know what they're talking about, but it was suggested in the previous post that the LIRR would be included.
once the GCT station opens via the 63 St tunnel, service to Penn will be upgraded.
What are you talking about?
The schedule, not hardware, though Penn Station's getting an upgrade too. Sending trains to GCT will help reduce congetion into the Penn tubes.
Brookfield Properties, owners of the WFC, have been proposing hijacking the Cranberry tunnel for use by the LIRR. Some newspapers have even taken them fairly seriously (occasional editorials in Newsday, e.g.). But no one suggests that the MTA is seriously considering this idea.
I stand corrected.
No harm comes from discussion.
Why don't they suggest doing the job the other way round - instead of LIRR to Downtown, Downtown PATH to Jamaica? A Maiden Lane - Orange St - Nassau St - Brooklyn Tech Place - Ft Greene Place - Atlantic Avenue Line would be a good idea - maybe some through workings on the LIRR could go to PATH.
thats what im talkin 'bout.
Absolutely nothing is committed yet, so in that sense there are no facts. There is strong talk among people with influence and maybe even money of making a transit center at the corner of John St and Broadway with passageways to all the subways and the PATH.
Someone said they saw on the Strap Hanger Board that an employee from Bombadier (sp?) clamied TA said the R142's did 66,000 MDBF. They are required to have a 100,000 MDBF and that 50% of the failures were door related.
Any truth?
(Steve your numbers in yet?)
I can't remember where I saw this (on this site I think) but Kawasaki R-142's had something in the 60,000s and the R-142a's By Bombardier had something in the 40,000's.
In April, 2002, the most recent month for which I have information, the R-142 fleet (450 cars at the time) had a MDBF of 97,862 miles, while the R-142A fleet (410 cars at the time) had a MDBF of 112,128 miles. There were not enough R-143s in service for MDBF to be published.
David
Count yourself lucky. I just read in the latest copy of RAIL that the class 334 units used in Scotland (built by Alstom) has an MDBF of 8,000 miles -- up from 800 miles when they first entered service. The MD of Scotrail was quoted as saying "These new trains are now ten times more reliable than before". I guess that is true. However he neglected to mention that NYCTA subway cars are some 12 times more reliable than even the improved figure...
AEM7
>>>Scotrail was quoted as saying "These new trains are now ten times more reliable than before". <<<
HAHAHA...just goes to prove the old adage, they're lies, damn lies and statistics.
Peace,
ANDEE
The guy has been sniffing Tri-Zone Penetrating Lubricating Oil. Until all the loose hardware is found and secured, 66K MBDF ain't gonna happen. 'In the hole SPEAK ENGLISH.' CI Peter
As you may have noticed, I've stopped posting MDBF numbers months ago. I'm simply got tired of the inane nit-picking by a few subtalkers about how MDBF is calculated, whether it's relevant or if it should be divided by the number of cars in the link. Let me say that for the past several months the MDBF for the R-142 and R-142A has been higher than the number you posted.
Thanks Steve
Why did the MTA give the 148th Street station this secondary name? And not only that the station is NOT on 148th but on 149th Street.What's up with that????
Why did the MTA give the 148th Street station this secondary name?
Because Lenox terminal is like right there.
And not only that the station is NOT on 148th but on 149th Street. What's up with that????
Numerous stations have names that are somewhat inaccurate. W4th st has no actual exit to W 4th st. For example.
Numerous stations have names that are somewhat inaccurate. W4th st has no actual exit to W 4th st.
It originally did, however.
That's a mystery explained!
Do you know why they got rid of the entrance? One of my first experiences with the NYC subway, about 35 years ago, was trying to find the entrance at W 4th St. It wasn't there then.
They had entrances in the mezza-mezzanine, you had to go down, then up for 8th Avenue.
I think once upon a time, there was a booth at the W4 St Station under the W4th Street intersection. Notice the token booths. There is N80 which was at the N/E of the S/B platform. It has been closed for 15 years. N81 which is at the N/E of the N/B platform. And there is N83 at the S/E of the station. Where was N82? I think it was in the middle of the station in the mezzazine between the 8th and 6th Ave roadways.
N80 is still open. N81 is not.
-Stef
Ok, I got the booths mixed up. But there was N82 in the middle of the mezzazine. That goes back years.
It's hard to imagine there were some booths that never received the AFC Treatment. There is one booth at my home station that has been closed since the 70s and was never rebuilt (I was only a baby at the time). It's designation should be R313 over at Jackson Av on the 2/5. Might have been an old rickety booth.
On the uptown platform at Jackson which had old iron maidens, got replaced with HEETS. Unfortunately, someone forgot that there are folks who still use tokens out there... Better have your card handy! I guess the lack of patronage on the uptown platform didn't warrant a rebuild of the station. Downtown is a different story - busy in the morning with everyone going to work.
-Stef
Do the HEETS work better than the Iron Maidens?
The Iron Maiden was a big, heavy thing. IND and BMT Iron Maidens had a plunger which you pushed to get your token in. IRT Iron Maidens do not have the plunger, you just deposited your token. A few occassions, it was out of order. The damn thing was padlocked.
At least with a HEET, you can swipe and enter. It is controlled by the booth from across the street.
-Stef
And Iron Maidens still accepted Japanese 5 yen coins (worth about 2 & 1/2 cents back in 1980 now worth about 4.5 cents) even after the magnet tokens were introduced for the dollar fare. I'm not surprised they phased out those.
I never got an iron maiden to work. I invariably had to go back to the street, find the nearest booth, explain my situation, and enter through the gate. At one point the clerk even asked me why I bothered trying. Most of these attempts were at the uptown IRT entrance at 59th on the south side of CPS (still the only convenient access to that platform).
The HEETs work as well as turnstiles, although their user interface is a bit clunky. I wish the 87th Street entrance to 86th on the 1/2, which is only open rush hours, would get a few -- I've missed countless trains due to the walk to the only full-time entrance, at the front of the platform.
That HEET you mentioned at 59 St is definately sometimes not working. Alot of the time it's just a matter of the slot being dirty. Too many people using it! I always carry a few cleaning cards with me so that when I find a HEET that's not working, I give it a quick swipe and it works again. What I get on the card looks like a cross between grape jelly and purple crayon.
Yuk!
The damn thing hasn't been cleaned in eons......... Should it be the responsibility of the clerk in the nearby booth to clean them?
-Stef
I would think whoever opens and closes the gates over at the HEET there should clean them. If they are opened all the time, then no one will clean them until someone calls the F/O and the S/S orders the CTA to clean them. And the clerk at the booth will be too busy getting someone relieved to clean a HEET that they don't see. Especially if it's an extra.
Those HEETs are not open at all times.
Which brings up another question: Why aren't all HEETs open at all times? Any safety argument for closing them (someone may be lurking in the corner waiting to rape/mug/kill anyone who walks by) is offset by the safety argument for keeping them open (if the HEET is locked, lots of people who had planned on using it will have to walk the length of the platform, go upstairs at the full-time booth, and walk back to the other end of the platform, and there are many more places along that four-block walk for rapers/muggers/killers to lurk).
In any case, yes, those HEETs do get a lot of use. I wonder why there are only two. Perhaps that would be a good place for the TA to experiment with a row of standard turnstiles and video surveillance.
But they still work better than the old iron maidens. I've always gotten the HEETs to work, though sometimes it takes a few tries; I never got the iron maidens to work, not even once. (I never got an iron maiden anywhere to work.) And when an iron maiden doesn't work, your token's gone.
>>> Why aren't all HEETs open at all times? Any safety argument for closing them (someone may be lurking in the corner waiting to rape/mug/kill anyone who walks by) is offset by the safety argument for keeping them open (if the HEET is locked, lots of people who had planned on using it will have to walk the length of the platform, go upstairs at the full-time booth, and walk back to the other end of the platform, and there are many more places along that four-block walk for rapers/muggers/killers to lurk) <<<
You just don't get it do you? No one at the TA cares if a passenger is raped/mugged/killed, as long as it does not happen on TA property. They are not concerned with passenger safety, they are concerned with TA liability.
Tom
That accounts for the half of the extra walk on the street. What about the half on the platform?
Also there is the Flatbush Line such as Church Ave with booths only on the Manhattan side and the 1 line from 215 to 242 (except 242) with booths on the downtown side only.) If you'll look at the booth numbers you'll discover there were booths on the other side.
I looked at the both list and found many booths that are no longer around including some at IND Penn, IRT Penn, 42 (IND, BMT, IRT), Grand Central among others.
Look at 50th and 8th- there was a booth in the middle uptown (see the outline in the wall) and at 52nd st!(note the tile has directional sings to a 52 st exit no longer there.) I could go even further but wont!
NOTE: All these former booths are plainly visible from the platform or mezzanine or from the street. Do not enter closed areas. If you'd like, e-mail me and I can show you some locations not mentioned.
If I have any inquiries, I'll be sure to chat with you offline.
Thanks!
Stef
Picky, picky, picky.
It is a terminal and it serves the Lenox Avenue line - therefore Lenox Terminal.
Accroding to the Hagstom NYC 5 Borough Atlas it is on 148th St. But I am sure it is wide enough to reach 149th St as well.
Maybe when TA was building the station, The section they wanted for an entrence at 148 St was an important part of the yard. I think I saw on an old map there are the shops over there. Instead of removing the buildings there, they built the platforms in the yard itself closer to 149 St. The name of the station was called 148 St probably because they did not want customers confusing this station with the 149 Stations in the Bronx.
The tracks and platform are oriented east-west along 149th Street. The closest the station gets to 148th Street is the south (logical west) track, which is along the south edge of 149th Street. Your Hagstrom is incorrect. Check the Manhattan neighborhood maps.
Don't tell me tell Hagstom.
Hagstrom doesn't post here. You do.
I know where 148th St-Lenox Terminal is, so I am not concerned that Hagstrom has it misaligned on their publication.
Because it's a place where Lenoxes go to die?
:0)
Are you saying you'd rather it were called "149th Street / Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard"?
Well, yes the station entrance is on 149th/Powell Blvd. If you named it 149th Street, people at 135th Street would be confused with the 2 and 3 trains going to separate 149th Street stations (#2 to 149th-CG and the #3 to 149th/Powell). Just name it 148th Street ad leave it alone...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Where them R142s?"
What about the (5) and <5> situation with some stations in the Bronx, like Pelham Parkway and Gun Hill Road, the MTA had no problem with that. The #2 (and rush hour/late night #3 service) 149 Street IS right after 135 Street, the #3 148(149) is after 145 Street, so that would eliminate some confusion.
See, the (5) is a full-ime service, except nights. The <5> situation is only during rush hours. I wouldn't realy be concerned with the two Pelham Parkways and Gun Hill Roads as much as the two 149th Streets (supposing Lenox Terminal was named 149th Street), one in Manhattan, the other 149th St being way over on the other side of the harlem River. In this instance, the two 149th Sts means the difference between walking 10-15 blocks and walking 10 blocks then across the bridge, the three blocks more.
Big Difference
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"R68s Are Hippos!"
The (5) runs at nights as a shuttle.
The <5> also runs at the end of rush hour/beginning of midday around 10 am to the yard.
Chicago CTA L has no less than 5 "Western Ave." statins, 3 of which are on the Blue Line (no matter which branch of the Blue Line you're on, you stop at Western Ave. twice). If they ever through route the Orange and Brown lines through the Loop, then the other two Western Ave. stations will both be on the same line.
-- Ed Sachs
In Toronto, the TTC differentiates their possible same name stations by calling them "east" or "west". For example, "Eglinton" and "Eglinton West".
To avoid confusion with the other 149th St. stop?
Well when the Hi~Vs & Low~Vs dominated the IRT, prior to the arrival
of the 51 foot Rs, it was the Lenox~Seventh Avenue Line and till
1968 it terminated at 145th Street on the North. The designation
of 148th in TA parlance was in the same geographical grid as the IRT Shop.
;-) Sparky
I realize not all subtalkers can check the board on a regular basis. Therefore, to avoid a topic that keeps coming up, please be aware that these topics have been brought up already:
1)Spider-Man movie (Subway Series Redbirds)
2)Men in Black II (Redbird and R-32)
-Nick
Oh, behave.
You might as well add 76 St., Manhattan Bridge 2004, the Q to Queens and connector posts to that list of triple cooked hash.
Actually, if some subjects weren't repeated once in a while, the board might as well shut down, as there'll be nothing to talk about.
Now 76th Street is another story.........
The Manhattan Bridge is beyond triple-cooked. It's more like scrambled eggs-the only thing on the planet that any idiot can cook. (I say this because my dad can't boil water)
-Hank
In the area of New Lots is a great deal of land along the LIRR Bay Ridge line. Those who ride the IRT can look down and see a lone catenary bridge among nothing but a bunch of railroad frogs. There is a building not too far behind it. All this land is fenced and is apparently part of the NYCT Linden yard complex now. I heard this was a yard for the railroad at one time. Was this area at one time a yard? Did it consist of thru tracks or bumping blocks at one end? Was the NYCT Linden complex part of the original yard also? The bridge for the LIRR that crosses Linden appears to be for 4 tracks. Were there 2 yards, one on each side of Linden? Was there anything of importance in the area for the railroad to have built a yard there? Thanks.
The Linden Yard was originally known as the Linden Iron Shops (that might still be the formal name), so I imagine that some sort of heavy maintenace work was done there at some time in the past.
Both of the areas you are referring to were LIRR Classification yards prior to being turned over to the NYCTA. A classification yard is the place where rail freight gets sorted from the initial delivery before the final move to it's final destination (also called 'making up a train'). The LIRR turned over the unused properties sometime in the late 1970's and track panel construction began there sometime in the early 80s.
Currently, Linden Yards/Shops also includes a diesel engine refueling platform and serves as a location for receiving new subway cars via delivery from New York & Atlantic Railway.
Yes, at one time the Bay Ridge branch included four-track operation (prior to the discontinuence of passenger service in 1923). The cantenary tower sitting in that large yard with the switch frogs is the last remnant of the 'glory days' of BIG electric engines (like the Rectifiers) of the New Haven RR running on the Bay Ridge.
Hope that helps you out...
Yes, thanks. Interesting that there were two yards. One on each side of Linden. They must have had thru tracks. That catenary bridge must have been for the yard leads. That building that is close to it appears to be much younger than the bridge and would be in the way of the former trackage if it still existed. It looks so strange being there all by itself and away from the main line track. Did NYCT build the buildings for the Linden yard complex? I passed by once and noticed they have a big shop building.
A lot of the area was mainly old warehouses from industries previously there. As for NYCT shop, I don't know for sure if they built it. The shop building is where track sections are constructed, then later placed on flatbed trucks or flatcars. They especially construct switches there.
Actually, one of the buildings that are used by Linden Shops was formerly a Frito-Lay distributorship (on Rockaway Ave.).
NY & Atlantic doesn't deliver the cars to Linden. NYCT (SBK) has trackage rights on the Bay Ridge line from 65th Street Yard to Fresh Pond. NYCT locos (mainly SBK diesels, which are built to FRA railroad standards) haul the subway cars down the Bay Ridge from "the Pond" to Linden. NYAR locomotives aren't equipped with NYCT couplers to haul the cars to Linden.
Where do you get your information???? SBK DOES NOT go down to Fresh Pond. They do not have the rights to the Bay Ridge Branch. To be more precise, SBK let the rights that they DID HAVE back in the days of the Willy B. shutdown lapse, so they currently DO NOT have the rights to go down the line.
And moreover, I have WITNESSED the deliveries, and they are done with NY&A locos hauling them down to just outside the Linden Shop gates. BTW, doesn't need NYCT couplers, because they have a coupler-adapter for doing the moves...
Thanks for the info!! My sources will be shot for bad info!! lol :-)
Looking out from the L, one can see strings of covered hoppers (concrete sand haulers) on the storage tracks by the Linden Yard. Are these hoppers delivering anything for NYCT? They are always there, sometimes seeming like they never get moved because I always seem to see the same ones sitting there all the time.
They are being stored on a siding for a plastics manufacturer located near Glenwood Road and Utica Ave (Favorite Plastics, Corp.). The covered hoppers contain tiny plastic pellets which are then heated, melted down to a liquid form and then reshaped into whatever product is desired.
Obviously, Medford Recyclers (adjacent to the Canarise Line at Pitkin) are a major client of NY&A as is another auto scrap place near Remsen Ave.
Gershow Recycling Co. is also a customer, and the funny thing is that Gershow is DIRECTLY across the street from Medford!!
Train Man Paul: sorry, my goof -- I meant to say Gershow. The Medford reference is the fact that Gershow's main facility is located in Medford, L.I. (near Deer Park). So both their facilities are serviced by NY&A. They were smart to purchase the former Lieberman-Koren scrap metal facility as it is huge (covers both sides of the street) and is a convenient place to send pieces of the old Fulton-Pitkin El that are being removed...
Does Gershow have a siding in Medford?
I've never seen it, but at the NY&A website but the Gershow location in Medford is listed among their "stations" listings.
It is listed as one of NYAR's stations as far as customers served by the NYAR. It is safe to assume that these locations would only be listed if they had active sidings for car pickup and delivery.
Yes, at one time the Bay Ridge branch included four-track operation
What was the extent of the four track stretch?
Yes, I wanted to ask that question also. Originally, it doesn't remain 4 tracks past the Linden/New Lots area does it? The rest of it appears to have been only 2 tracks.
Look at www.oldnyc.com, in particular their virtual tours of the NYA and Bay Ridge Branch, as well as their tour of the proposed Cross Brooklyn Expressway. Between the commentary and pictures, you can get a feel for how many tracks existed at various points along the ROW.
I believe it was four track from Fresh Pond all the way down to Bay Ridge. I'd have to check some reference material, but I believe that was the case.
I'm susprised that no one has mentioned this already. What happened to you, David Cole? :-)
Yesterday a Metra Electric empty move derailed at around 11th, knocking out catenary right downtown Chicago. Thursday night, all passengers were being bussed from downtown to McCormick Place (27th/Convention Center) to board their train. NITCD has an equipment shortage as 40 cars were trapped north of the derailment. NITCD trains were terminating at East Chicago while Metra was running shuttles (on a load-&-go basis) between 27th and 63rd. Diesel sets borrowed from Blue Island line was being used for some services.
Catenary is still being repaired as we speak (too bad, those were old-school, pretty IC catenaries -- natural rust steel and all that). Today, 2 lines were opened for operation Friday afternoon rush. Normal service should resume after the weekend.
AEM7
I saw the article in the Tribune, and though abou posting a link to it. But it seems like whenever I do that, people bitch and complain either because they have to register to view the Trib website (cry me a friggin' river) or because they think my posting is off-topic, or for some other stupid reason. So I decided it was more trouble than it's worth. I figured if it was important enough, some other SubTalker would mention it. Thank you for proving me right.
Besides, I was busy today with errands, including going to Citibank to figure out how I'm supposed to withdraw money so that I can buy groceries. Apparently the fact that I don't make a 6-figure income gives them reason to close my accounts. Oh, and the IRS says I owe them $3000. Nothing worse than being kicked while you're already down.
Sorry... I'm in a pretty rotten mood right now...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Besides, I was busy today with errands, including going to Citibank to figure out how I'm supposed to withdraw money so that I can buy groceries. Apparently the fact that I don't make a 6-figure income gives them reason to close my accounts. Oh, and the IRS says I owe them $3000. Nothing worse than being kicked while you're already down.
I'm sorry to hear that. Considered joining Citibank because of their international coverage when I was moving over to MA, and they had to ask me what my income was. So I told them that I am an independent researcher currently being paid by no one, and will not be paid by anyone unless I so choose. Anyway ever since then I have regarded them a pain-in-the-butt outfit, and anyway they don't have that many branches in BOS, if any.
In general, I'm very disappointed at the U.S. banking system. Not only do they not have national banks (Wells Fargo is about as close as you get to any such thing), they also charge you a fortune to do anything (Fleet charges $2 per month just to have an account, and extras for checks and use of tellers -- HELLO???) It is true that the banks are providing you with a "service" -- safe keeping of your money, etc., but really, I am beginning to wonder whether it is cheaper just to keep $20 bills at home in a safe, and cash paychecks at the grocery store, and put any excess cash in offshore savings accounts.
It's weird to think that ever since I left Europe I've become much more of a socialist outfit, buying into things like employee credit unions which I would never have even considered when I was living over in Europe. I even decided that trade unions are not a bad thing in the North American employment environment.
As to the Chicago Tribune issue, just post the entire article, I really don't think anybody would care if you just took the "Copyright Chicago Tribune" notice off it. Most of the press don't have time to track copyright violations.
I hope your $$ situation gets sorted out.
AEM7
Our webmaster takes a dim view of copyright violations, and has in the past pulled posts that contained entire news articles.
-Hank
Try a local bank and shop around until you get one w/o fees. My family has never paid any bank fees. They would pull their account if they had to and most banks will waive them if you threaten that. I personally bank at a new local startup that is run by people in town. They are really nice and have free food on Fridays. You were there, remember. Its where you got your traveler's cheques cashed to buy that stuff at the doll shoppe.
I bank with the MBTA employees credit union (don't ask). No fees there either.
Over the past few years I've banked with Bank One (formerly First Chicago), Fleet, and Citibank. Up until now I've been very happy with Citibank. Their locations are convenient (at least in Chicago and NYC), and they've always treated me like a real person whenever I've had to go into a branch office. But now that I've lost my job and hit some hard times, I'm apparently no longer worth the time of day to them.
I banked with Fleet while I was in Boston, and they make Enron look like the Sisters of Mercy. I can't tell you how many times I stood in line behind 20 (yes, twenty) other people while they had only two teller windows open. I once got into a shouting match with the branch manager at their Kendall Square location because of that bullshit. First Chicago used to be tolerable, but since becoming Bank One they're doing their best to emulate Fleet. They're the ones who invented the $3 fee just to talk to a live person. I've always heard good things about LaSalle Bank here in Chicago, but there's no point in opening an account with them when I'm getting ready to move to Philly.
Credit unions are looking better and better... I've been a member of Navy Federal Credit Union since I was a kid (I grew up a military brat), although I only kept the bare minimum in my account and did my primary banking with the more convenient local banks. NFCU is the largest credit union in the world, and has branches almost anywhere in the world that has a US Navy base. Now I'm thinking I'll close out my Citibank accounts and start using NFCU full-time now. The nice thing about credit unions is that the customers themselves own the organization and call the shots, rather than some greedy CEO looking for new ways to screw over the customers and get his fat bonus check.
-- David
Chicago, IL
FWIW, I haven't used a commercial bank for my personal banking in over 20 years - credit unions have always been able to serve my needs as effectively if not more so. I'm currently a member of two (one based in North Carolina, the other in New Jersey) and am extremely satisfied with both. My younger daughter's one experience with a commercial bank (First Union) was quite unsatisfactory (they bounced a check due to "uncollected funds" - even CASH deposited in a different branch than where your account is located has a three day hold on it) and neither of my sons have ever had an account at a commercial bank. Used to be that credit unions had a lot of restrictions and weren't terribly convenient as a result but that changed when banking restrictions were eased during the Reagan years; now they're a lot easier to use than most commercial banks.
Question for all you MTA folks out there: is there a credit union available to you, either through the City or State government or otherwise?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, NYC municipal workers have a credit union available to us (Municipal Credit Union). But to put it mildly, they are not a really convenient option.
Plus the small one at 207 yard.
I initially resisted registering on newspaper websites, fearing spam and who knows what else, but did so with the New York Times, with happy results, though the pop-up ads are a nuisance. A David Cole reference led me to the Chicago Tribune website, and no-hassle registration. The Los Angeles Times, a Tribune property, is a different story. In order to access their site, you MUST provide a phone number, an e-mail address, AND your ANNUAL INCOME! (Forgive the caps, you cap-sensitive people.) No way! Being a Los Angeles resident, I am often tempted to suggest links to rail transit items in the Times, but I refuse, and I refuse to register with the Times. Their telemarketers are relentless, and besides, I subscribe to the print edition. (What choice do I have?) Again, I stress, the Los Angeles Times is owned by the Chicago Tribune. Corporate consistency, anyone?
There is another paper published in Los Angeles, the Daily News, the voice of the San Fernando Valley (dailynews.com), another no-hassle website, but slanted to the Valley, and not particulalrly focused on transit.
The Los Angeles Times wants to know my ANNUAL INCOME? Enough of this rant.
The Los Angeles Times wants to know my ANNUAL INCOME?
They want to know whether you're worthy enough to receive their spam.
The Los Angeles Times, a Tribune property, is a different story. In order to access their site, you MUST provide a phone number, an e-mail address, AND your ANNUAL INCOME! (Forgive the caps, you cap-sensitive people.) No way! Being a Los Angeles resident, I am often tempted to suggest links to rail transit items in the Times, but I refuse, and I refuse to register with the Times. Their telemarketers are relentless, and besides, I subscribe to the print edition. (What choice do I have?) Again, I stress, the Los Angeles Times is owned by the Chicago Tribune. Corporate consistency, anyone?
Newsday, Long Island's monopoly newspaper, is also a Tribune property. We get calls from telemarketers at least once a month trying to get us to subscribe. Newsday is a total rag with very little hard news; mostly it's pointless features crap. It's only useful if you have a puppy to train.
Of course if you didn't offer something in return, why would the publishers want to allow you to read it for free?
I agree about Newsday - it is a rag, but sometimes there's decent local news coverage and transit coverage.
The tabloids are often a waste to read - but not always. I can recall one occasion where a court decision was pending, and the only NY paper to correctly predict the outcome and publish a good legal analysis was the Daily News. The Times had it all wrong.
The tabloids are often a waste to read - but not always. I can recall one occasion where a court decision was pending, and the only NY paper to correctly predict the outcome and publish a good legal analysis was the Daily News. The Times had it all wrong.
The Daily News usually has pretty good transit coverage; the Times has somewhat less and the Post is a dead loss.
I don't think the Post is totally hopeless -- they were the first paper to mention the MTA was having a bit of a problem with the workmanship being done on the R-142s up in Plattsburgh -- but overall their coverage does tend towards the superficial.
BTW -- for all you Newsday online readers out there; this was on an article out of the USC-Annenberg Journalism School magazine:
In the U.S., the Los Angeles Times could be the first major general news site to adopt a subscription model, says Steve Barth, general manager of L.A. Times Interactive. The paper is currently weighing the option, he said.
"If we took a leadership position and did our part in helping condition the reader that not everything is free forever, hopefully other substantial news organizations would follow," says Barth.
For the moment though, The Wall Street Journal remains the only major U.S. newspaper Web site charging a subscription. The online Journal -- which recently significantly raised its subscription rate to $79 from $59 for non-print subscribers -- is losing money despite 642,000 paying subscribers and a demographic that attracts premium ad rates.
If the Chicago Tribune is able to make a pay site in Los Angeles profitable, odds are the idea will be coming to their Long Island newspaper not long after (though the Hearst Corp. tried that system back in the mid-1990s with their San Antonio Express-News and it bombed; apparently, outside of the reading the city's police report, noone was willing to shell out the extra $$$ to read the other news online).
"...condition the reader..." Thank you, Los Angeles Times. I am not a rat in a maze that needs "conditioning." This is an egregious example of corporate contempt for the public it presumably serves.
Salon.com made most of its content subscription-based about a year ago. While this was intended to curb the company's major losses, it didn't work, and today Salon is facing a severe cash crunch and may have only a few months to go before it has nothing left.
...or a canary that won't take its Imodium.
Newsday doesn't require you to register, though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why don't you just provide false information? Or the information of someone you don't like.
Assuming this addressed to me, I should tell them that my lover is David Geffen, and that I have no other source of income. But, just as Richard Nixon spoke to the microphone in the ceiling, "that would be illegal".
>>>Or the information of someone you don't like. <<<
That's just plain childish, spiteful, and wrong.
Peace,
ANDEE
Its less destructive than other forms of revenge.
It's still wrong.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just lie.
-Hank
I live at 69 No. F---ing Way
I try to make my lies funny.
Actually, it's not 69, it's 666. I have a bunch of other EVIL things in my registration profile.
I live in Iran
The city is Morningstar
The phone number is +666 (666) 666-666
Yes, I know that's not a number in Iran, but Iran is evil.
I always use the E-mail address NOYDB@NOYDB.COM.
NOYDB=Non Of Your Damn Business.
Peace,
ANDEE
I always lie when websites require me to register. Who says you have to tell the truth?
Peace,
ANDEE
Who says you have to tell the truth?
You do... or at least, your conscience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hate the registering, even though I am registered for the Times, and the Chicago tribune (because of SubTalk). I hate the hassle though. When someone gives a link to a Newsday, Daily News, or Post article, I usually read it right away, as it's fast and easy. When it's the Times, alot of times I just skip it because alot of times I am just glancing through SubTalk fast due to time constraints, and don't feel like taking the time to log into the Times to read it. It all depends on what mood I am in, and how much time I have at the time. A lot of times you can get an idea of what the article was about by the responses that follow, then if it still catches my interest, I may go back and read it when I have the time.
Oh, and the IRS says I owe them $3000. Nothing worse than being kicked while you're already down.
My wife and I got a notice from the IRS yesterday saying that we owe $531 for the 2000 tax year. This happened because they're boosting our wages and salaries income (Line 7 of the 1040 Form) by a certain amount, which in turn leads to the increased tax liability. What is particularly maddening is that the notice does not list any source for this extra income they say we have. I re-added the W-2's and everything checks out. So now I have to send a response, asking the IRS for more information. Very annoying.
Rest assured that as long as I am reading this site IC Electric info past and present is of interest. IMHO the Gold Stahdard of FRA commuter service.
'South Chicago Special now loading on track five. 53rd, 63rd, Stony Island , Bryn Mawr, South Shore, Windsor Park, Cheletenham, 83rd, 87th, South Chicago.'
On a personal note, sorry to hear of difficulties, as to CitiBank, after unpleasant experiences with them (took them over a year to admit there had been a fraudulent charge) some years back, I am barely willing to even accept a check drawn on them.
My Dad was laid off in November ($@!*&% Delta), and he still doesn't have a job. But his bank still lets him withdraw the $5 he probably has left :-)
Nothinglike like having a 'day of deposit to day of withdrawl' account (account is closed automatically by the bank if balance=$0), having one cent in the account (a mistake on my part) and receiving a notice three months later that I owe the bank 35.99 for a $12/month account fee!
-Hank
I hate the registering, even though I am registered for the Times, and the Chicago tribune (because of SubTalk). I hate the hassle though. When someone gives a link to a Newsday, Daily News, or Post article, I usually read it right away, as it's fast and easy. When it's the Times, alot of times I just skip it because alot of times I am just glancing through SubTalk fast due to time constraints, and don't feel like taking the time to log into the Times to read it. It all depends on what mood I am in, and how much time I have at the time. A lot of times you can get an idea of what the article was about by the responses that follow, then if it still catches my interest, I may go back and read it when I have the time.
Oooops, Ignore that, I posted that in the wrong spot!
During the PCC era on the Newark City Subway, there were several rear-end collisions. Despite the signals, an operator would round a curve too quickly and hit a car stopped at a station. Yesterday, it seemed that the new signal system (or cab speed control) was so restrictive that the cars crawled. In each direction, there were maddening restrictions. Our top speed appeared to be about 42 mph, reached three times. Some was at 25 or 30 mphs, but often we traveled less than 10 mph. Who is responsible for engineering such a speed control? It not only wastes travel time, but it also wastes the company's money, as it severely reduces the efficiency of crews and equipment. The inbound trip (not quite 6 miles, I believe) took 24 minutes, an overall speed of 15 mph. In 2001, the PCC's began their following round-trip 32 minutes after their previous one, including two lay-overs! Joe McMahon
The previous block signal system was, um, "quaint". Only one
other person on the board will get this fully, but there were no
distant relays: the lighting circuit was broken over line wires
at the track relay in advance! Nonetheless, it worked pretty
well for a streetcar system, with no train stops.
The new system is Harmon Ultracab II. This installation has
been a pretty good example of how not to do a signal cutover!
It is simply not designed for the kind of density they need.
That's regress folks :-;
It appears to me that most, if not all, of the individuals that made posts concerning "How to damage a Metrocard" have more free time on their hands than should be legally allowed.
Not to be rude, but why did you start a new post on How to damage a Metrocard??? There was already a thread for it.
Because he has too much time on his hands.
I have too much time on my hand and I should have used a current thread; nothing like a little smoke to camouflage the real problem.
nothing like a little smoke to camouflage the real problem.
Yup... Just as Enron or WorldCom.....
or for that matter, just check out the Federal Budget, and tell me how *that* is any different.
Today it’s yet another long day’s journey into night.
This column is rather late in coming as I have been very busy dealing with union issues, lots of work and some medical issues again. Hopefully I’ll start catching up somewhat in the near future. For those of you who have written to me and not received a response as yet please be patient, I’ll be getting to you as soon as time allows.
Once again the column I had intended to send out this time has been pre-empted. The railroad gods were in another one of their wicked moods and today they bombarded us with lightning bolts and poison darts.
This day (8 July) started a little earlier than normal as we had a special union meeting to discuss the proposed new contract. Both our General Chairman and International Vice President were present to discuss and explain the proposal. I had to arise earlier than normal to attend before heading off to work. We kicked for twelve hours rest Sunday evening when we tied up so that I would have more time to attend this meeting. This meant of course, another night of sleeping fast.
I left the meeting at the last possible second so as to make work on time. Upon my arrival at Glenn Yard I ran into the Brakeman on Job 16 which is the daylight lead job at Glenn. He commented that I should’ve stayed home for awhile. It seems the FRA was here today and was just starting to inspect part of our train. I talked with the Assistant Super before I headed out to look at my power. He told me the third unit of our locomotive consist, the IC 1025, was going out dead in tow. I had trouble with it yesterday and reported it to the Locomotive Hot Line when tying up. Some of the Mechanical boys from Woodcrest were dispatched to check it out after we had tied up. They discovered some serious problems with the turbocharger and it was shutdown and now it will just go along for the ride.
While the FRA took to inspecting the train, I took to the power giving it a quick look over. The power had already received a daily inspection, so I didn’t have to perform that chore but instead, just give them my normal pre-launch look over. When that chore was finished I quickly headed back to the office and the air conditioning. Being that it was already in the low 90’s with very high humidity, there was no reason to sit in the cab of the locomotive. We had a Dash 9 with a super cab as our lead unit today. The CN super cab units do not have air conditioning and when you turn on the central fan in these units, they quickly become like convection ovens as all this system does is re-circulate the hot air in the cab. It was brutally hot in there today prompting me to pull out my trusty thermometer for a temperature check. The reading quickly rose to 103 degrees. Oh it’s going to be a long day.
When the FRA and car inspectors finished with our cars in track one, we learned of eight bad ordered cars. The original plan planned on them not inspecting the cars on number two main which was going to be the tail end of our train. This portion of our train had come in on train 348 from Winnipeg a little earlier. The chore to kick out the bad orders was undertaken. Somehow during all these proceedings, a mind was changed and it was decided to inspect the cars off 348 as well. Another seven bad orders were found there meaning we would have to kick them out as well making for a total of fifteen cars to throw out of today’s train. We finally got this task completed after a couple of hours which included a delay for some yard congestion.
The Feds had discovered a problem with my second unit, the IC 6059. Before we could double our train up, the Electrician had to make the necessary repairs. Again we had a chance to get into the air conditioned yard office while the repairs were affected. When they were completed, we were told the Dispatcher was now holding us and we could not double our train up.
BNSF train M-GALCNI (Manifest, Galesburg, IL to CNIC) which becomes CN train 394 (Glenn Yard, Chicago to Toronto) was brought up on main two. We had just cleared main two and shoved the cars from here towards the yard while we kicked the bad orders out of it. A train from the Belt Railway of Chicago had been brought out onto main two at Lemoyne where the BRC crosses and connects to the Joliet Sub, just over a mile north of Glenn Yard. There was still a southbound Metra commuter train that had to move first on main one so we could not use this track. Now logic would dictate letting us get doubled up and air tested using main two between 45 Crossover at the north end of Glenn Yard and Lemoyne. We would fit. They could cross the BRC job over to main one at Lemoyne after the Metra went south which would clear main two for us all the way. For some reason, this was not considered. I thought of it but who am I? I figured there was no need for me to suggest this move as was not running the show.
The guard had changed and a fresh new crop of managers was now in charge. The Assistant Super now on duty questioned the logic of this Dispatcher and decided to override it. And it was very logical that he did. I actually agreed with this decision. He called the Desk One Dispatcher and explained this idea with him telling him to make it work. And so we headed back out into the steam bath to double up our train and get an air test.
While starting to perform the air test my lead unit, CN 2532 began to act up. A look at the computer screen indicated an overheating problem. I attempted to reset the problem as instructed by the computer but the system would not cooperate. I reported the problem to the Yardmaster. The Assistant Super heard the conversation and suggested I call the "Diesel Doctor" for some assistance. The Diesel Doctor is Mechanical Services in Edmonton. They have Mechanical Department employees stationed at Network Operations in Edmonton to talk with Engineers via a toll free telephone number or over the radio to assist us with trying to remedy locomotive problems. No they are not doctors of locomotion, just qualified personnel that oftentimes can help you solve problems. In some cases these guys can be of great help. Other times though, they simply cannot fix the locomotive over the phone or ether. Today was one of those days.
The railroad gods were obviously in a particularly foul mood today. Heat, humidity, an insanely hot locomotive cab, the FRA, bad orders and locomotive troubles. I guess this would be the double hat trick of railroading.
I tried all the fixes suggested by the good doctor including rebooting the on board computer but to no avail. The doc said I should get some use of it as this locomotive should give me about two-thirds of its normal output under the circumstances. Key here on the word should. About all we could hope is this engine would hold together long enough to get us to Markham where would could swap it out for another unit.
We finally departed Glenn at 1835 with 89 loads, 45 empties, 12,273 tons and 8259 feet of train behind us. For power I had the CN 2532, now in very poor health, the IC 6059 and the aforementioned IC 1025 which was dead. The gods are having the time of their life today.
The computer on the 2532 was telling me the unit was operating at reduced power but still operating. As I got the train rolling it dropped out and quit loading in order to protect itself from burning up. The computer stated "hot manifold temperature sensor" and also "hot diesel exhaust." I’m thinking that maybe it got word about the infamous MoPac 1741 I burned up in 1981. I tried to reset the system again, but to no avail. It would run for about a quarter mile or so and drop out back to idle and quit loading again. I now had one working unit to pull this beast of a train around with. I reported this fact to the Assistant Super and Desk One.
As we proceeded north up the Joliet Sub, Conductor Rich Stevens and I discussed the situation and mulled over whether we would be able to make the pull from 21st Street through 16th Street (formerly known as Clark Street) and the McCormick Place tunnel. This is tricky railroading when things are going good as the profile here is what is referred to as undulating. There are short steep little dips and sags as well as several curves and signals strategically placed so that you cannot readily see them. I told him with a train of this length we should make it alright as we would have portions of the train going downhill and actually pushing us where we needed the push to overcome the fact we only had one unit to pull us up the short steep grades.
As we approached Halsted Street on the Freeport East Sub, the Operator at 16th Street called and asked if we could give him a good move across his place if 21st Street lined up right now. I told him we would do the best we could with only one working unit. His response was "WHOOOWEEE!"
As it turned out, we made the grade with no problem. And I was able to give him a pretty good move across his plant. At least we dodged this lightning bolt anyway.
When we reached 39th Street on the Chicago Sub, I attempted to get the 2532 working again. It was successful although again at reduced output. We did manage to get the train up to about 34 MPH anyway, better than the 12 or 15 MPH I was expecting with one working unit.
As we approached Markham, Rich and I discussed the potential options. We were getting low on time and mulled whether they might recrew us here and cab us to Champaign or let us run until we went dead on the hours. We soon learned that after swapping out all this sick power, we would head south with our train. So now we had a decision to make base on our personal options, should we order a pizza from Aurelio’s or have the cab we will take to Champaign stop for us to pick up something to eat en route to the hotel? We decided on the pizza and made the call to order a pie for pick up. We have an inherent advantage here in that we have to go directly along side of Aurelio’s to get in and out of Markham.
After cutting off the train at Homewood we headed into the yard at Markham to swap out our power. With that task completed and the new power looked over, we headed back out 8 Lead to Homewood interlocking where we would be headed back out to our train. But first we had to make the quick stop to pick up dinner. Aurelio’s is strategically located right next to 8 Lead and there just happens to be a signal there for the Homewood interlocking. Sometimes life is really good. I made the quick stop and Rich ran in to pick up our order. He was back out in a flash with dinner which smelled really good.
We were back on the train in another five minutes or so and pumping air. I contacted the Lead Car Inspector for an air test. Being that we changed power, we needed to re-arm FRED with the new head end device, perform the required dump test and road brake test. While waiting for the Car Department, we dug into the pizza. For those of you that really need to know, it was a large one with spinach with mushrooms and onions. And yes, it tasted every bit as good as it smelled.
We got the required air test and departed Markham with the IC 6128 and 6140, a pair of SD40-2’s to replace the dead and dying power we came in with. There was no pick up or set out to make at Markham which saved us quite a bit of time here today.
After passing Steunkel Road near Milepost 32 in University Park, I contracted the Desk Two Dispatcher to see what they planned on doing with us. We only had about 85 minutes left to work at this point in time so the trip had become little more than a "Mission Impossible." We knew we were not going to accomplish today’s journey.
"Your mission Tuch, should you decide to accept it is to run this train until recrewed en route or lost to hours of service. Should you or any of your CNIC team be caught or killed, the Train Dispatcher will disavow any knowledge of your activities."
Desk Two informed us of the plan to recrew our train at Kankakee having us take the cab in which the recrew came out on into Champaign to tie up. We met the relief crew at the Kankakee Yard office, swapped out and exchanged pleasantries and loaded up into the cab. We headed south on Interstate 57 to conclude today’s journey on the rubber tires instead of the steel wheels. Our little sojourn which began at 1155 Monday morning concluded at 0110 hours early Tuesday morning at the La Quinta Inn at Champaign.
For those keeping score, we have begun to vote on our proposed new contract. The balloting is conducted by mail with all ballots having to be postmarked by midnight July 12th. I will post the results when they are known. And if it is ratified, perhaps I’ll write up a piece on it.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
Does anyone know what will be the fate of the M1/M2s MUs once they are replaced with the M7 series? Will they be sold off to another commuter system or will they go to the scrap yard?
I would like to take parts off the Trains, LOL!
Undoubtedly, some would be retained as worktrains and some would be held for a while as emergency replacement rolling stock.
Actually only the worst of the M1's will go. The M3's will be rebuilt, and the worst will be scrapped.
I cant't wait until the M-7 fleet is all in, even though their's no railfan window.
You can't also wait until your brain transplant.
Ouch....that was harsh :-)
Shut the Hell Up!!! That was uncalled for!
We don't always get what we call for.
yea !!.........agreed !!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>keep tha railfan window !!
SEND the M1 [after GOH] TO Staten Island.
you are saying put em in servive at staten..??
UMMM,,,,I think that was pretty obvious.
Peace,
ANDEE
SIRT has hosted LIRR equipment before.
wayne
Here's a picture of it right off this site:
Weren't wood platforms illegal due to fire concerns?
Actually, Milbourne (spelling?) station on the MFL in Philly still has wood platforms. So is Long Island City's, and Richmond Hill's.
no M3s will be scrapped.
also many M1s will also be rebuilt
Neither of the LIRR M-cars (M-1 and M-3 - M-2 is Metro-North) is likely to go away anytime soon. Some are going to be rebuilt, others will be scrapped, or become parts cars.
Maybe in 10 years, though.
Stop. A once all railfan window railroad (on electrics) going blacked out transverse cab window..
Stop. A once all railfan window railroad (on electrics) going blacked out transverse cab window..
Can you please translate your post into english. It sounded interesting. I'd just like to know what you are trying to say.
basically in plain english, us railfans will no longer be able to see where the train is going as it is a full width cab. perfect example of this? practically all 50 F trains in a am rush on a weekday
Try looking out a bombadier cab control coach (ADA high-leval platform door in the middel) on metro-north. The windows are blacked out. It is plastic but it has a sheet of black (can't see through) garbage bag style plastic guled onto the window (at the factory). At least on the old non-ADA coaches by Pullman-Standard it was a advestisment with scotch tape. Almost always there was a 1 cm space around the window where the advertisment didn't reach that you can see through.
M2's run on ConnDot and they are going to be re-habbed and run at least until 2030. ConnDot had the right idea in terms of cost containment and new equipment needs.
(none of this has happened)
M1- Lirr- most saved, some rebuilt, Mncr- few saved
M2- Lirr- none exist, Mncr- All rebuilt
M3- Lirr- all rebuilt, Mncr-?????????????
M4/6-nothing done
also, the mta commuter rail cars seem to be sold off to owners(maybe afghanistan would like M1s)
There are no railways in Afghanistan.
housing?
Yes there are. I saw on the news a train crossing that "Freedom" bridge into one of the Northern "Stan" countries.
>>M1- Lirr- most saved, some rebuilt, Mncr- few saved<<
Where is the LIRR going to save retired M-1's ? There's no storage room whatsoever anywhere. They found a siding out in Calverton for 10 derelict M-1's and that's about it.
Bill "Newkirk"
most are to remain in service
Don't forget: MNCR: ACMU-1100-All Retired.
They will be reefed, like the redbirds. But only suburban fish will be allowed inside.
-=But only suburban fish will be allowed inside=-
Hehe... better yet, city fish loaded with cash.
The M2 are staying; they date only to 1986 or so, not old enough to warrant replacement. The M1s are falling apart; one I was on today was worse than all but the most decrepit subway trains, alternately blew hot and cold air and was deafeningly loud with flat wheels etc.
wayne
GOH anyone? I don't see any structual problums with the frame. Perfect candidates for a GOH.
Hey Mr. Pirmann, if SubTalk/BusTalk was to ever to go on a hiatus (hopefully not) again, Would me or someone else on this board be able to open up a Alternative SubTalk/BusTalk Message Board?
You mean The Other Side of the Tracks message board and the various others that were linked from here during the hiatus weren't enough? Who's stopping you from opening another message board now?
They were great, I'm just saying a SubTalk/BusTalk that's in Alternative to this one, I have to tell ya, this website, you get responses in less than 5 mins on this board, When the hiatus was in affect, not everybody from SubTalk came to the Other side of the Tracks, so I just wanna make a Alternative and have everyone from SubTalk be transferred over to the Alternative Board.
You forgot about straphangers.org
I never been to that website, I'll have to check it out.
A bunch of uninformed passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
I would not say that Andee.
I hang out there as well and provide the desparatly needed historical information (I am not the only one from here over there). They are getting better informed and maybe one day their transit IQ might get as good as all of ours.
This board is easy to use. TOSOT was a PIA to use. This board list things logically. That other board was annoying. And none of the Amtrakers were there. God only knows where Amtrakers go during the hiatus. Back to their jobs maybe? :-)
AEM7
>>>This board is easy to use. TOSOT was a PIA to use.<<<
That was a very unkind comment. Harry Beck works very hard on his website and, while their are differences, I consider it on a par with NYCSUBWAY.ORG.
....and who gives a FF about amtrakers anyway? There are plenty of RR boards out there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Slow down buddy! I'm a Amtrak Fan!
i use both boards plus run several yahoo groups rail pages...
mine !! anyone interested?? e - mail me !!!
........lol!!
although i do not have enough dough to run a subtalk / bustalk
type forum etc.. all of you folkz out dere can do dis'...!!
here is a somewhat list of my yahoo groups :
and photo album communities etc...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7FLUSHING/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASIATICCOMMUNICATIONS/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BLUELINE/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitaltransitphotography/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSCS30/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dscs30sonydigitalstillcamera/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MassTransitCommentary/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/METROLINKCOMMUTERtrainz/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGSR33K/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/REDLINEsubway/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthernCaliforniaTransit/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/finishthe710freeway/?yguid=43376975
THIS IS ONLY A PART OF MY YAHOO GROUPS LISTS !!
ENJOY- JOIN PARTICIPATE !! SalaamAllah "ants" ol' man here !!!
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com RAIL & BUS TRANSIT
salaamallah@hotmail.com
donutsdude@yahoo.com other information etc....
http://www.webspawner.com/users/salaamallah/index.html WEBSPAWNER LINKS SITE
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/ TRANSIT VIDEOS FOR SALE INFORMATION
ALSO MY LIST APPEARS ON http://www.nycsubway.org/transfer/salaam_videos.html
http://www.nycsubway.org/index.html DAVID PIRMANNS SITE DA" EST EVER !!!!
Thankz folks SalaamAllah { THAT CRAZY BALD HEADED TOOTHLESS 50+ OLD MAN }
Um? IS this your full time job? Do you work for CA transporation departments?
I shouldn't asked that question, because, there are to many alternative websites out there.
NOW he realizes it. Sheesh
What is the Highest Track Speed in the LIRR system?
80mph
Thanks
Thanks, Where does it achieve that speed?
Everywhere.
What about the MNCR Highest Track Speed?
90 mph for commuter between New Rochelle and Harison on ATC.
HMM...I haven't seen many trains plowing through Jamaica at 80 mph recently.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are we talking about The Diesel Trains or the Multiple Units (M-1, M-3)? BTW, Can the MU's hit 80 mph or just the diesels?
Yeah The M-1/3's can hit 80 mph if the ASC doesn't kick in. They were design to go at least a buck.
Yeah, I remember back in the late 60's-early seventies when the LIRR were just getting the M-1's or the Budd Cars as Newsday called them. Newsday said they were designed to go over 100 MPH and that they will regularly go over 100.
What does newsday know about trains? It was something the reporter heard while the Engineer was screeming as the train left the station.
That is the highest posted speed. I have heard of LIRR MU consists reaching 90 mph along the mainline, east of where the Hempstead branch splits off.
Got Damn!! That's faster than regular Amtrak Trains(non-electric).
I believe the diesel consists which preceded electric service to Boston were permitted 100 mph on some stretches.
And of course turbotrains go fast too.
"That's faster than regular Amtrak Trains(non-electric). "
The Albany trains do the 55 mi from Rhinecliff to Albany in 45 minutes, with an intermediate stop in Hudson. Since that averages 73 mph, including some time at 0 mph, they probably are going 90 here or there.
Isn't there a short stretch of 110 mph somewhere on the Empire Corridor?
The Southwest Chief is allowed 90mph on a part of its route, and I think there's a part of the Chicago-Detroit line that has been upgraded to somewhere in the 90-110 vicinity.
That's probably about it for above-79mph speeds in the rest of the country though.
The Atlantic City Line is rated for 90mph in its eastern end where grade crossings are less numerous. Not sure is NJT still runs 90 there tho.
hey guys. LIRR does hit like 80, sometimes. i think on the mainline starting once u pass floral park, u can hit 90 plus mph. but ASC only allows 80. lol but how many engineers cut it out??? on the Far Rock branch, between locust manor and Rosedale, ASC gives u a 80 code, althp due to the curves, they want u to do no beter than 70. i have seen mus hit 75
As of late the stretch between Floral Park and just west of Hicksville is not that fast now. Lately the trains been getting barely past 60 without the ASC ringer going off. Sometimes the trains actually slow to crawl, even though no other trains are ahead. The Main from 83-bridge by Metropolitan Avenue to 36-bridge east of Woodside by Queens Blvd. still gets 70 - 75 mph running. An honorable mention can also be made about the Flatbush/Atlantic Avenue tunnel, from Bolands Landing (Morris Park Yard) to East New York, where they get up to 75 (75 was the fastest I seen there).
"Flatbush/Atlantic Avenue tunnel"
Yes, I love that run! The highest speeds are when the train leaves the East New York station and goes through the tunnel towards Jamaica. Wait, that's what you said, just in a westbound description :) I've only ridden that stretch eastbound, and I have done it twice.
Well the westbound is just as fast (when MOW isn't doing G.O.s in the area, mainly the new tunnel lighting project). One time the engineer went so fast ASC gave a full service brake to a complete stop, after 2 or 3 times of the ASC warning going off. On an eastbound run, an engineer hit 75.
I love when the train goes over the switches at high speed just before the old Woodhaven Station.
The highest track speed on the LIRR is the same as AMTRAK & NJT - Zero miles per hour. Track does not move - or shouldn't, anyway. The MAS on the LIRR is 80 MPH for electrics. Deisel MAS varies but in electrified territory it's also 80 MPH for the new equipment (was 65 MPH for the old stuff). In non-electrified territory it varies from 65 MPH to 40 MPH.
> Track does not move - or shouldn't, anyway.
Actually, tracks at switches move, don't they?
- Lyle Goldman
Well, if we're going to nitpick, so do drawbridges.
According to the MTA website, July 20 from 12am to July 22 at 5am, N trains Manhattan bound are running on the Brighton Line from Stillwell Ave. to DeKalb Ave., W trains end at 9th Ave., and R trains run on a shuttle from 95th St., to 59th St., and then 36th St., to Queens. What's up, switch replacement at the 36th St. switches to the West End Line? That would be a great time to get your pictures there while it happens. Some G.O. I guess N trains will go through Stillwell with passengers, and take them all the way to Queens.
So will the West end be Closed completely? They are trying to reconstruct the Consey Island/Stillwell Avenue Station, (salt water sea breeze is finally taking its toll on the structure) The N terminal and staircases @ coney Is have been ripped out for replacement, but what will they do for the time being on the West End Line, shuttle bus service?
W's will run from Stillwell to 9th Ave only.
N's run as normal Brooklyn Bound.
N's (Manhattan Bound run on Brighton).
R's shuttle only 95th to 59th, and from Canal to Continental.
Q's are normal.
I've taken N trains that were rerouted over the Brighton Line on three separate occasions due to emergency reroutes. The train ran local the first time and express the other two times and used the Brighton-Sea Beach connecting track at Stillwell. It was an unusual, but intersting reroute.
What next? The Brightons running on the Sea Beach line. Heaven help us all.
Nah, just the TA trying to settle that age-old argument. :)
Well I did ride the Q over the Sea Beach in May during a major GO. Maybe we're all going to be in trouble now . . .
Um... sorry Fred, but Brightons did run on Sea Beach already. There have been some recent GOs for a couple of weekends where the Q replaced the N, and to make it worse, there was only service in one direction.
Hey N Train. Maybe all us Sea Beach fans are going to have to pay the TA a little visit.
Fred, pretty soon the IRT #7 Flushing Line will go down the Sea Beach. They will install movable platform extenders at all Sea Beach platforms stations, to alleviate the gap. This way all the Mets fans along the Sea Beach route can have a "one seat ride" to Shea Stadium!
(because of financial considerations, the "Sea Beach/Flushing" train will go express from 59th Street Brooklyn to Queensboro Plaza. There won't be enough money for platform extenders for EVERY station!)
Yeah, right!
- Lyle Goldman
Perhaps it's the TA's way of telling the two sides to kiss and make up, maybe?
The Brightons vs the Sea Beaches aren't the problem; the myopic TA is.
The Brightons running on the Sea Beach line
It happened! I still have the service Q and N W advisories card. It was in few weekends ago June 1 & 3; 15 & 17 & May 18 & 20 where Q runs on the N and W.
The Service Advisories shows that
Manhattan Bound Q runs on the N.
Brooklyn Bound Q runs on the W.
Shuttle Bus replaces Q between Atlantic Ave and Prospect Park.
No trains running on the Brooklyn N line and Manhattan W line.
Hey Express, what are they trying to do? It sounds like they are going to make my train a shuttle or something akin to it. Now I have to worry not only of getting the Sea Beach back on the Manny B and back to Coney when the work is done, I have to ensure that the TA doesn't do the unthinkable. Quick, get a rope.
That's reminiscent of the Coney island express days....
It's GO's like this one that make me feel glad that I have enough time on the job to pick weekends off. Try explaining this to passengers who have a hard time with English. Nuts!
Are you a train operator or a conductor?
- Lyle Goldman
Conductor. Currently working the W line.
I'm confused as to whether or not Ns will be stopping at Stillwell. If they do stop, which platform will it share with? Seems like all the platforms at Stillwell during this GO are still in use.
At this point, the only platform at Stillwell Avenue that is out of service (more than that...it's GONE, along with the structure that supported it) is the Sea Beach platform.
David
But if the N is running up the Brighton, it can't get to the West End platform (where the N usually goes nowadays when it runs through to Stillwell and the W doesn't) -- both West End tracks end at bumper blocks. It looks like the N will be sharing the Brighton platform with the Q. Q trains will be limited to one track (effectively if not actually); they'll have to move in and out pretty fast.
Actually, they could be nasty and NOT have the N stop at Stillwell:
From 86 St southbound, stay on E1 Track and enter Stillwell station on 2 Track, bypass Stillwell, and out the other end, crossing over to A4 Track south of W.8 St.
If you're riding the Brighton this weekend, Q trains are running express from Prospect Park to Kings Highway and are NOT stopping at Newkirk Ave ...
--Mark
But that's only Coney Island bound, NOT Manhattan bound.
- Lyle Goldman
Does anyone here model Trains? If so, What trains do you own and how do you maintain the Layout?
I model Amtrak Trains, I have the Acela Express Model from Bachmann, and I have a AMD-103 Locomotive from Athearn along with 5 Superliners in Phase IV. Later this summer, I will have my entire Layout Controlled by my PC.
nice set up. good lock with it. all i have is a metro north car. in h/o scale. i have it for show.
I only model HO Scale, this sunday I will be exchanging my AMD-103 for a F59 Locomotive in the Pacific Surfliner Paint Scheme.
For those who interested in Computer Controlled Model Railroading click here
where trainland.what happened to the AMD103
There is no AMD-103 in the Acela Paint Scheme at Trainland, I was just there last Tuesday, they only have the AMD-103 in Phase IV which is the one I have now. I will be at Trainland tomorrow to exchange my AMD-103 for a F59 Loco.
I used Bachmann's Bahn software. I re-created all the NYC Subway trains in it. I made the whole B-Division in a layout. But I got tired of it and currently enjoy BVE. Bahn was too much to get it to run perfectly. Scheduling was a pain and somehow the trains still found their way around to collide with each other.
Bachmann Bahn??? I never heard off it, is it new or old???
Check a fellow Brooklyn Tech grad Joe Korman's web site to get the Bahn software.
Brooklyn Tech Pride! Class of 2004 who hoo!!!
I go to Transit Tech High School in East New York, I'll in class of 2005.
http://www.jbss.de/
Still new-ish. Best for virtual modeling.
I'm in the process of building my first El.
It's going to be a 2 track dual contract IRT type el like the one in Brooklyn (Sorry E-Dog). I've got the first 3 feet done with more on the way. I have enough basement for 40 straight feet and if I can figure out how to make a curve, I'll have a yard like the one at New Lots.
I have two brass R15 subway cars with 3 more R15's on order from Image Replicas, and I plan on 3 R17's, 3 R21's, 2 R26-28, and 2 R29 in their original paint schemes.
If my grandfather could only see me now.
I also plan to repaint my Superliners in Surfliner Cars and exchange my AMD-103 for a F59 Locomotive in the Surfliner Paint Scheme.
For my Computer Control I will be using CTI's electronic equipment, I will be able to control my entire Layout right from PC, I might just purchase a Laptop and put that at my Layout Control Panel.
There had been some inquiries the last couple of weeks about how many Redbirds were left and how many R-142s are on the 5 line.
As of July 6, 2002, all assigned to the #5:
4 GE R-26 7780/7781, 7790/7791.
4 GE R-26 7818/7819, 7846/7847.
2 GE R-28 7862/7863.
4 GE R-28 7926/7927, 7938/7939.
20 GE R-29 8694/8695, 8716-8719, 8722/8723, 8740/8741, 8746/8747, 8752/8753, 8782-8787.
192 GE R-33 8806-8809, 8812/8813, 8816/8817, 8820-8835, 8858-8865, 8868/8869, 8874/8875, 8878/8879, 8882/8883, 8886-8903, 8908-8939, 8942-8965, 8970-8973, 8978/8979, 8982/8983, 8986-8997, 9000-9013, 9016/9017, 9020-9023, 9026-9035, 9038-9041, 9044-9055, 9058-9063, 9066-9075.
74 GE R-33 9076-9079, 9082-9087, 9090-9095, 9100-9109, 9112/9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9123, 9126-9129, 9132-9151, 9174-9177, 9184/9185, 9196-9199, 9210/9211.
140 Am R-142 6361-6410, 6436-6440, 6461-6465, 6471-6475, 6481-6485, 6491-6500, 6566-6570, 6761-6765, 6771-6780, 6816-6825, 6856-6875, 6951-6960 (5-car unitized). Used on OPTO.
(40 Am R-142 6441-6460, 6486-6490, 6971-6980, 6991-6995: Delivered).
This week, 7780/7781, 8752/8753 and 8910/8911 were removed from service, but the R-33 situation keeps changing. Some are gone for weeks and suddenly reappear.
There should be two more R-142 trains on the 5 within the next week: 6441-6445, 6446-6450, 6971-6975 and 6976-6980. This would leave only 15 Cobweb cars to go. There are now 10 R-142 Option cars on the property, which I didn't notice anyone else posting. 6991-7000.
That sound right, 'Juice?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Cobweb Cars? 10 Cars should be unaccounted for, 6441-50.
6451-55 are getting a workout with the first option order set, 6991-95. Observed them in sim mode at 125th St and Lex on Thursday. Seats were still covered in plastic.
-Stef
hello there. i have a question about the trip. i just found out about it today.i guess its a little to late to get the tickets. is there any way if i can show up there and buy a ticket on the spot?
is there any way if i can show up there and buy a ticket on the spot?
See earlier thread.
I've got wonderful news:
[b]I'M A DADDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/B]
Thurday morning my daughter was born. Her name is Jessica and she's 7 pounds, 8 ounces and 20 1/2 inches long. My wife must be Wonder Woman the way she bounced back from a long labor which (frustratingly) ended in a C-section! She's already off all the yucky hospital wires (IV et al) and walking arround. The baby is the most wonderful baby ever!
You may not be seeing as much of me here from now on. But I'll check in when I can. Thank you all so much for talking subway with me!
:) Andrew
Congratulations :)
Three rules:
(1) This is not going to be the most frustrating experience of your life. She has not turned 21 yet.
(2) Don't over-protect.
(3) Be good to her mother. She has to put up with a lot more sh1t than you do.
AEM7
HEY,CONGRATS!!!DUDE!!! Been there myself about 8 months ago.. my son was 9pounds 10 oz,almost 22 inc.Very chunky and very hungry!!! Enjoy them now while their small[and qute],cause when she reaches my son's size,man o man,your in for it!!!! GOD bless you and your family....
Congratulations, man!
Mike
Mazel Tov!
May she be inscribed for a long and happy life.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Todah Rabah!! Thank you very much.
:-) Andrew
congradulatins sir.dont forget to have the train mobile set up
Congrats. Shoulda named her 'R142 Option 76th Street' through...
-Hank :)
PS-I suspect you'll be here more than you think...new babies means lots of late nights.
-Hank
Now that a new Born size baby. My daughter was 10 1/2pounds and 21 inches long at birth. My wife also had a C-section after a long labor. The first words after she found out my daughter size was "I had a Butter ball.". My 2 1/2 now and she is the biggest the 4 other 2 year old at her daycare center.
Well anyway Congrats. It's fun having a daugter, they can't piss in your face when chaging them.
Just think she Dad's little girl.
Congradulaions dude. Happy to hear about your new blessing
From
SciGuy6586 A.K.A Alshawn J. Kelly Rushing
Congrats. Glad to see everyone is OK.
Why, with all those midnight feedings and sleepness nights, wouldn't you be on Subtalk even more?
Congratulations. A new straphanger (and a cute one too).
Congratulations! Did you decorate her room with subway wallpaper?
Congratulations!
Mister K, my heartiest congratulations to you. I hope you love her to pieces. I know how you must feel, the same way I did when my wife presented me with a brand new baby girl 23 years ago. I spent over four hours after they took her to the nursery just sitting on a chair staring at her. It was a feeling I will never forget or experience again. I salute you and your wife.
Congratulations!! May she bring you and your wife joy and happiness.
T.Beverett
Congratulations!! May she bring you and your wife joy and happiness.
T.Beverett
Congratulations and wish u all well
Fabulous, Andrew ... congratulations! May all her subway rides find a railfan window! :)
--Mark
Mazal tov! What's her favorite subway line?
What's her favorite subway line?
The carseat!
:-) Andrew
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that one. Does it have a railfan window? Is it express or local?
Hey, congrats!
Hey congrat. God bless you and your family.
Mazel Tov! You better take her out on some rides that have Railfan windows before they're all gone.
Mazel Tov!!!
Congratulations! Enjoy her, but don't expect to get out much for the next couple of years. Nurture her properly and the world will have another subfan.
Well, congratulations. If she's anything like I was, you'll be able to generate that subway roar in her room.
What was that song in "Gigi" that Maurice Chevalier sang? "Thank heavens, for little girls, for little girls get bigger every day..."
Congrats Man!
E_DOG
Just wanted to say CONGRATS and treasure her while she is young cause she will grow up too quickly right in fromt of you. Hope to see you on again
I never knew that Amtrak had Bi-Level Cars on the Cascades Service, I haven't actually seen the real thing but, MTH (Model Railroad) produced the Bi-Level Cascades Cars, does anybody have any information on this?
They didn't, those are just superliners that somebody painted in the Cascade Talgo scheme. There are Bombardier UTMA cars running around up there from Sound Transit, but the superliners, painted normal amtrak colors, on the cascades have given way to the Talgos and F59PHIs.
They did. The service started well before there were enough Talgo sets to cover the service.
-HAnk
I didn't think they were ever painted in the Cascades colors though, wasn't that introduced with the Talgos?
I looked this up on the site but I could not find this. I remember reading somewhere that there were talks/plans to build a Jewel Ave. spur off the Queens Blvd. line. Don't recall how far it was to go. Does this sound familiar to anybody? It was a new plan so I looked up the plans for expansion in the '60's (Archer, 63 St.) but it wasn't there. They did mention a spur at the LIE to the north. If they had built this spur it would've been a good bet that they would've used those turnouts and make Woodhaven an express stop. I am fairly sure that this was not the same plan because I remember the mentioning of Jewel Ave. Thanks.
This is a new one on me. I do recall proposals for the LIE line and even a line along 73rd Ave. in Queens, but don't recall anything about Jewel Ave. Gotta do some digging through my literature, perhaps I either missed it or forgot about it.
The plan was drawn because some felt the LIE Line was abit too expensive,would cause too much disruption,and was too long[given the money it would have cost per mile]thus bringing the NINBY'S out to play. The line would have left the Q.B at woodhaven blvd,ran under Jewel ave to or somewhere near Parson Blvd[at least that was the first draft that I saw].It was killed after the 1975 bond act was voted for[it was suppose to pay for this line and a few others,but it didnt pass,some voters remembered the 500 million they shelled out during the 50's for subways they never got and 1968 for 11 new lines they were suppose to be getting with all likelyhood they wouldnt!!]
Ok, at least I wasn't dreaming. Thanks. Jewel Ave. is just west of the 71/CTL station. They still would have branched the line off at the LIE/Woodhaven Blvd? Was it to run parallel to the other tracks until it reached Jewel Ave.?
ok, now i see ... i mixes up the two ..sorry.The Jewel ave line was suppose to branch off from the 71ave station to Utopia,as a cheaper line to build,rather than the LIE...and would have been built along with the Super express/Archer ave line. As I said,the money was sqwandered away,and the feds didn't[nor the voters]want to hand out more doe until they saw SOMETHING for the money they already was spending. Well,what we got for it was the 63st tunnel [still incomplete to this day],Archer ave subway[the same thing applys here]and last and[certainly as far as the city was concerned],the least,the three holes in the ground that make up the the Second ave subway...so insted of 11,we got 2.Somebody got robbed.. guess who?
Thanks for the info. I wonder why it is not on the website? Must have only been in the talks stage.
I don't know if you noticed but I responded to another one of your posts.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=356098
I was hoping to get an answer from you.
Thanks again.
Woodhaven is nowhere near Jewel Av. Jewel begins at Queens Blvd in Forest Hills, where 69th Rd and Yellowstone Blvd cross QB (about 3 blocks west of 71-Continental). It crosses GCP, goes through Flushing Meadow Park, then crosses the Van Wyck, Main St, Kissena Blvd, Parsons Blvd, 164 St, Utopia Pky and then ends at 178 St/73 Av.
Coming off the QB mainline around Woodhaven, it would pretty much have had to follow the LIE and come across along the Van Wyck or Main Street to reach Jewel. "Usefulness" of such an alignment would have been quite limited as that's all moderate or low-density residential, especially surrounding Flushing Meadow. And since it's residential, other than the highways or the "major streets", the streets aren't wide enough for a subway under them. Coming off at Jewel would have been problematic as well -- 69 Rd & Jewel aren't wide enough for a two-track line unless it was stacked. Furthermore, a tunnel from QB up through Flushing Meadow would be very costly because it's all marsh and fill (there are few buildings taller than 6 stories between 108 St & Main because of that). Frankly, not enough potential ridership for either scenario.
I think you're confusing this with the "super express" that would have come from the 63 St connection, run along the LIRR ROW and rejoin the mainline at Continental.
If you read my other post concerning the subject,you would have seen that i did indeed mix up the LIE route with the Jewel ave route,and i did state that as such...no harm done...
500 million they shelled out during the 50's for subways they never got and 1968 for 11 new lines they were suppose to be getting with all likelyhood they wouldnt
What subways was the $500,000,000 to pay for?
Queens Super-Express, Jewel Av, 2nd Av... What were the other eight planned in 1968?
The Second ave subway and it connections,Nostrand ave subway,Dyre ave line connection to the Pelham line,6th ave express tunnel and its connections to the 2nd ave lines various branches and so on....
CO OP CITY, Utica ave, South Jamica[phase 2]LIE, Avenue C loop line t[from the houston street subway]to the 14 street line,Canarsie Line relocation to the Bay ridge line with its extention to Flatbush, the Rodgers ave grade separation for the IRT Eastern Pky subway[this one is still talked about today]and the MTA TRANSIT CENTER HUB at 48th street/3rd ave for LIRR,and the 48th st subway.....
This was probably asked before but does anyone really know why they decided to make 4 Ave. just a local stop on the F? I was waiting at 4 Ave. and was thinking that the line from Bergen to Church could have been planned better and done cheaper. I am fairly sure that when it was planned that they envisioned the Crosstown to go local to Church and have the 6 Ave service go express and then local afterwards. I am fairly sure that planning for the line was based on overtaking the Culver line south of Church from the beginning. I guess it is one of those, "if you knew then what you know now" situations. It seems like such a waste that the express tracks aren't used in mainline service because of Carroll and 4 Ave. It was good to plan big so if the need arises but it didn't seem to work here. Maybe in the future. It always bothered me that the G doesn't really have a south terminal, just a relay track. I was thinking that they could have gotten away with 3 tracks and only one level instead of two levels in spots. Have only one level at Bergen and keep the F/G merge north of the station like it is. South of Bergen they could start an express/bypass track in the middle and let it continue to 4 Ave. Smith St. is narrow but should be able to fit three tracks south of Bergen on the same level. Make 4 Ave an express stop with two island platforms. Make 4 Ave. the G terminal. Continue with 3 tracks south of 4 Ave. and make 7 Ave. a local stop. If there are no width limits, make Prospect Park a side platform station with the express track in the middle on the same level. Keep the middle track on the same level at Ft. Hamilton Pkwy and then on to Church Ave. where it would be 3 tracks instead of 4. South of Church would be a straight connection to the el, 3 tracks to 3 tracks, not the current 4 to 3. Would have been a lot cheaper. Just some observations.
When the city-owned IND was built in the 1920's and 1930's, it was to designed and built to compete with the rival IRT and BMT which were privately owned and operated.
I don't feel like digging up my book "Building The Independent Subway," but I believe it was never intended to build 4th Avenue as an express stop.
If you think about it, 9th Street on the 4th Avenue Subway was a local stop, so did it really make sense to put an Express stop on the IND?
The IND did have grandiose plans. They were stymied by the Depression, the Second World War, and Robert Moses.
Yes, you have a point. Figured the since the connection was there that they would be better off to build it as an express. What is at 7 Ave. to warrant that stop as an express? There might be a hospital, I think.
No, 7av is a big shopping district as long as residential, barnes and noble, yes the hoospital, a lot of schools(2jhs, 1 hs), etc...
oopz, i meant "...shooping district as well* as..."
I.S.88 and John Jay high School along with the shopping district and a hospital. You would be surprised at the number of school kids that used that station. In fact I would walk from 5th ave and 5th St. JHS 51,to 7th Ave just to catch the express to Bergen St. and transfer to the GG to go home.
> I would walk from 5th ave and 5th St. JHS 51,to 7th Ave just to catch the express to Bergen St.
> and transfer to the GG to go home.
That must have been a long time ago!
- Lyle Goldman
>>
From highlights of a speech by General Musharraf (president for life?) of Pakistan
* Dual track of Pakistan Railway will be
ready in next five years from Peshawar to
Karachi and train speeds will be increased
to 140 and 150 miles per hour. <<
Care to wager which actually happens first? (second ave, HSR in Pakistan, some other leader)
It's sad that these countries have projects like this, and ours does not.
Yeah. I'd MUCH rather have a 43% illiteracy rate amongst adult males (72% for females), 11% child mortality (per 1000), 34% of my population impoverished, and a per capita GNP of $440, as long as I had a world-class railway!
-Hank
PS-Comparative rates for the US: .7% child mortality (per 1000), per capita GNP over $29K, 11.3% impoverished. I couldn't find clear data on literacy.
Comparative rates for the US: .7% child mortality (per 1000), per capita GNP over $29K, 11.3% impoverished. I couldn't find clear data on literacy.
Now that is PROFF!!!
I think that's the point...it's sad that a country with all these problems can count rail as worthwhile, but our prosperous nation doesn't.
That is, it this is for real. I feel skeptical.
Mark
I'd put my wager on Pakistan. If the Second Avenue Subway is built, construction won't start until 2004, which means it will be completed in 2012 (hopefully in time for the Summer Olympics, in case NYC is the host). -Nick
And by 2012, Hong Kong will have finished:
- Tseung Kwan O Line (Next month)
- West Rail, Nam Cheong to Tuen Mun (2003)
- Ma On Shan Railway (2004)
- Penny's Bay Disneyland Line (2005)
- Lok Ma Chau Spur (2007)
- North Island Line (2008)
- West Island Extension (2008)
- Sha Tin to Central Link (2008)
- South Island Line (2008)
9 projects, all set to be running by 2008. And the Second Ave Line isn't due to start until 2004? Oh, boy...
-J!
Yikes, makes iu think. If the Daily News id post info like that, maybe it would get enough people going and embarrass the MTA into building something than just talking
Well, we are not sure about North Island Line, West Island extension and South Island Line(s), but others are confirmed to be built by 2008.
HKSAR government is ambious to let people to take trains other than other modes of transport while MTA is still sitting down and planning how to lay an inch of track in the tubes under 2nd Avenue.
Anyway, how could it need EIGHT YEARS to build such a short line, we can make it in half of the time.
Well if we didn't give them all our money they won't be filth rich. Remember that they through the second ave el metal on us in Perl Harbor. The japanese government colloects taxes from every japan company that sell stuff to the US. The more we but from them the more money they get. Now if international commerence was stoped, we would have the money to build a second ave subway. Buy MADE IN THE USA.
Now if international commerence was stoped, we would have the money to build a second ave subway. Buy MADE IN THE USA.
Nah, don't stop it! Abolish the WTO, then create import taxes - the only popular sort of tax because you're taxing foreigners, who don't have a vote!
(If the Second Avenue Subway is built, construction won't start until 2004, which means it will be completed in 2012)
I hope they keep the 2004 date, because Bush and the Congress will have to approve or disapprove federal funding just before the 2004 election. That at least gives us a shot at Phase I, the Stubway, and (if I had my way) down to 42nd Street with both Upper East Side and Queens service terminating there.
A more cynical sceario is this -- Bush agrees to federal funding for the LIRR to GCT and other suburban improvements, but not city subway improvements. In exchange, the schedule slips a little, and the request for money comes in 2005. And is turned down.
A typical way for the anti transit republicans to deal with a subway issue.
A lot probably depends on who runs against Schumer in the U.S. Senate race and the overall political map of the U.S. in 2004.
Unless Rudy suddenly gets a hankerin' to be a Senator again, I don't see any Republican giving Schumer a major challenge two years from now -- good news if you're a Democratic supporter (or a Democratic Senate committee chairman), but bad news if you're looking for federal funds; Schumer would be pushed more to work for the $$$ if there was a close race, since bringing home the bucks translates into votes; while at the same time the Republican nominee would benefit if Bush made a big show of handing out more transit dollars to the state (though a lot of that would go to the suburbs and upstate, where the Republican voters hang out).
On the national level, the odds are less likely the election could be used to pry loose funds; Bush would be more likely to back a 2004 transportation bill with money for New York if Karl Rove thought it could help win the state, but if Bush has a chance to win New York, odds are he's going to roll up about 450 or so electoral votes anyway and wouldn't need to give extra money to the state, because he wouldn't need it to win in the first place. And if it's going to be a close national race, New York's one of the states he'll write off first, to concentrate on the more likely Republican states (does Miami need a rail line extension?).
Heck, with all the money we are $pending over there, Pakistan will have all that and MORE.
Does anybody have any information on the F59 Locos coming to the Northeast or is just a model? Because I was searching the MTH Model Railroad Website and they have the F59 Loco there in Phase VI and says Amtrak (Northeast)Cab #3000.
i saw the same thing. i thing they just painted it like that.
Friday's Times had an article about Amtrak travel. One suggestion made was that time-pressed travelers consider taking Amtrak for one leg of a trip and flying the other. For instance, let's say you would like to take Amtrak from New York to Miami but can't spare the time for the round-trip. You take Amtrak to Miami, then fly back to New York. So far so good. But the article went on to say that as many non-discount airlines charge a stiff premium for one-way tickets, it might be cheaper to buy a round-trip airline ticket but use only half. For instance, you'd buy a New York-Miami round-trip but only use the Miami-New York half, as you'd have taken Amtrak for the first leg.
This could be very costly advice. Airlines know about these tricks and use their reservations system to catch people using them. When you go to check it at the Miami airport for your flight home, the airline may very well charge you several hundred dollars (the difference between what you paid and a one-way ticket) or deny boarding altogether. While buying a Miami-New York-Miami round-trip would avoid that problem, as you'd be throwing away the second half of the ticket, if you had any frequent-flyer miles on the airline they might be cancelled.
All in all, the Times should have researched the issue a little better.
Agreed.
Amtrak has agreements with United Airlines which allows a traveller to purchase a round-trip ticket, whereby Amtrak takes you one way and the airline the other way (the order of the travel legs does not matter). Amtrak also has an agreement, which I believe is a code-sharing agreement, with Continental Airlines.
Otherwise, with any other travel arrangements you make, you're on your own. Caveat emptor.
You are allowed to use the first half of a discount round trip air ticket and discard the return half. You still get frequent flyer miles. This happens all the time and is not considered naughty. I have done it for business reasons.
As you point out, you are not allowed to use only the second half of a discount ticket. Also, if your discount ticket is A to C (change planes at B) and return, you'd better not forget to take the leg from B to C, or your return reservation will disappear.
Basically, once you forgo a leg of a discount ticket without discussing it with the airline, the rest of your itinerary may (will) be canceled.
So in the example in the Times, if you buy a Miami-NY-Miami ticket and use only the Miami-NY part, you have done nothing wrong, illegal, contrary to airline policy, immoral, or fattening.
Actually, the airlines technically do have a policy against throwing away the second half of a discount ticket as well. It's just that it's pretty much unenforceable -- if they ever questioned you, it's pretty easy to claim that some kind of emergency forced you to change your travel plans, etc.
They do try to enforce this with their most frequent flyers in granting them higher privelege tiers. There was a thread in www.flyertalk.com under American Airlines about this recently.
CG
Just give a terrorist the return ticket. God knows they have enough problems buying tickets now as it is.
"This could be very costly advice. Airlines know about these tricks and use their reservations system to catch people using them. When you go to check it at the Miami airport for your flight home, the airline may very well charge you several hundred dollars (the difference between what you paid and a one-way ticket) or deny boarding altogether... All in all, the Times should have researched the issue a little better."
I don't believe the New York Times was that off base in their advice -- the trick of using only one half of a round trip ticket in lieu of a one way ticket has been around for some time.
I have personally used this trick a handful of times, and I don't even refer to it as a trick, as I feel it is about as criminal as pulling the tag off your mattress. After all, is it our fault that the airlines price one-way tickets beyond practicality?
The only catch it that you have to use the first leg. Whenever I have used this little maneuver, it has always been when flying somewhere and returning in leisure by car or boat.
The airlines can't hold you responsible for using the second half? Can they? I certainly hope not...
My take has always been that the airline corporations are pretty rigid, and have thought of every way to prevent people from breaking their rules.
MATT-2AV
I have personally used this trick a handful of times, and I don't even refer to it as a trick, as I feel it is about as criminal as pulling the tag off your mattress. After all, is it our fault that the airlines price one-way tickets beyond practicality?
The only catch it that you have to use the first leg. Whenever I have used this little maneuver, it has always been when flying somewhere and returning in leisure by car or boat.
Unless you have frequent-flyer miles, you're in the clear if you use the first half of the r/t ticket and throw away the other half (because you're taking the train). Problem is, the Times article didn't mention that. Most people who take Amtrak to, say, Miami and fly back to New York and don't want to pay the high cost of a one-way air ticket will naturally buy a New York-Miami-New York r/t, not a Miami-New York-Miami one. The article should have made it clear that buying the latter type of ticket is the way to go.
"The article should have made it clear that buying the latter type of ticket is the way to go."
Oh. I see. You're right. The point of always needing to use the first half of the round-trip ticket is extremely important, even if it means doing the counter-intuitive and purchasing a round-trip ticket that originates in the destination city. Have you written to the editor?
MATT-2AV
"This could be very costly advice. Airlines know about these tricks and use their reservations system to catch people using them. When you go to check it at the Miami airport for your flight home, the airline may very well charge you several hundred dollars (the difference between what you paid and a one-way ticket) or deny boarding altogether... All in all, the Times should have researched the issue a little better."
I don't believe the New York Times was that off base in their advice -- the trick of using only one half of a round trip ticket in lieu of a one way ticket has been around for some time.
I have personally used this trick a handful of times, and I don't even refer to it as a trick, as I feel it is about as criminal as pulling the tag off your mattress. After all, is it our fault that the airlines price one-way tickets beyond practicality?
The only catch it that you have to use the first leg. Whenever I have used this little maneuver, it has always been when flying somewhere and returning in leisure by car or boat.
The airlines can't hold you responsible for using the second half? Can they? I certainly hope not...
My take has always been that the airline corporations are pretty rigid, and have thought of every way to prevent people from breaking their rules.
MATT-2AV
ah, yes the "benefits" of deregulation. Anyone for some discount megawatts good only if you run your air coditioner in the winter??
"Anyone for some discount megawatts good only if you run your air coditioner in the winter??"
Turn it inside out and you have yourself a heat pump.
"Anyone for some discount megawatts good only if you run your air coditioner in the winter??"
Turn it inside out and you have yourself a heat pump.
Pump what?
An a/c pumps heat from "inside" to "outside".
If you turn it inside out during the winter, there isn't much heat outside to pump in.
If you turn it inside out during the winter, there isn't much heat outside to pump in.
It's there, though... and that's the previous poster's point. A heat pump works like an air conditioner in reverse. It's at its most efficient in warmer climates where the temperature rarely goes below freezing (or at least not for very much of the day)... in North Carolina, which I call home, over 90% of new construction uses them (although I don't happen to have one - I have electric baseboard heat, which isn't a bad proposition either in that climate). In New Jersey, however, they're not a particularly wise choice for a year-round home (in my house there I have oil-fired hot water heat, which I personally prefer).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The first half can be auctioned off. Ohh wait! Damn sept 11! Stupid ID! #$/]@32&%&^^)*# afghes, Errrrh!
That started quite a few years ago. My father almost missed a flight because of it. (He doesn't drive and he's quite obviously over 21, so he doesn't generally carry ID. He didn't realize the rules had changed and he now had to bring his passport for a domestic flight.)
And I think you figured out the reason for the rule: not security, but so the airlines can ensure that tickets aren't transferred.
This is not true at all.
You can buy airline tickets round trip, and travel only one way. They will never catch you.
Because, you can book an outbound as your return trip. If you want to take Amtrak to Miami and want to return on the airline, you would book a Miami-NYC-Miami round trip ticket. Because your return leg would be an "outbound" leg, they cannot catch you.
Do not use frequent flier scams when using this trick. I never have this problem, as I only have frequent Amtrak miles, nothing else (see my post about my 15,848 miles).
Technically it is a breach of contract, but they cannot enforce the contract as they cannot prove that you intended not to travel.
AEM7
You can buy airline tickets round trip, and travel only one way. They will never catch you.
Because, you can book an outbound as your return trip. If you want to take Amtrak to Miami and want to return on the airline, you would book a Miami-NYC-Miami round trip ticket. Because your return leg would be an "outbound" leg, they cannot catch you.
True. But the Times never said that. The average person wanting to take Amtrak to Miami and fly back wouldn't think to buy a MIA-LGA-MIA round-trip, so it would've been nice if the article offered some advice.
Enough about the airlines. I hate flying. Since the airline industry
has frequent flyer miles, then AMTRAK needs to start having frequent
rail miles. I'd buy into that. I travel to Florida on AMTRAK and I
love every minute of it. With that, more people will be riding AMTRAK
trains and the railroad won't be in such bad financial terms. This may
help AMTRAK bring up revenues.
PASS THE WORD..
... AMTRAK needs to start having frequent rail miles.
They do. It's called the Amtrak Guest Rewards program. Go to the Amtrak web site to sign up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How long does it take to travel between New York and Miami on Amtrak?
- Lyle Goldman
Why don't you look for that answer here?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which airlines charge more for a single one-way ticket than for a round-trip ticket? To me, that doesn't make much sense (for the reasons you have given, and for the obvious reason that there is more flying done round-trip).
- Lyle Goldman
"Which airlines charge more for a single one-way ticket than for a round-trip ticket?"
Almost all, if you buy an excursion fare round trip several weeks in advance.
Which airlines charge more for a single one-way ticket than for a round-trip ticket?
Almost all, if you buy an excursion fare round trip several weeks in advance.
More specifically, the full-fare airlines follow this practice. The discounters do not charge higher fares for one-way tickets.
Yesterday while working my Friday job on the J, the train I had on my second trip, at my operating position, was a mixed married pair of an R-40M, # 4460, and the other an R-42, # 4665. This was the first time I had ever seen, much less worked on, a married pair where the pair was of two different car classes. I wonder what happened to each cars' original mates to make for this kind of married pairing? Does anyone know of or ever seen a mixed married pair of two different car classes? This was a first for me. Good thing about it was that it offered good doors and good PA, but was definitely something I never saw before.
WILLIAMSBURG BRIDGE CRASH.....
Those were the cars involved? I would have never even considered that!!
In fact, the involved cars are their mates, 4461 and 4664. You can look at the rosters of R40 and R42 for details.
Chaohwa
Thanks :-)
Where they too lazy to uncouple the cars after they crashed together?
They had to cut them apart! #4664 was telescoped for a distance of 11 feet and #4461 had her nose and cab mashed flat, killing the motorman.
The two surviving cars suffered blind-end and anticlimber damage, especially true of #4665. Part of the reason that #4461 is being recycled is that her sill survived the impact and she didn't get out of plumb with the rest of the car body. Not so of #4664, he lost several feet of his overall length due to the impact.
wayne
That's the ultimate Odd Couple, that's for sure.
Speaking of the Odd Couple, it was 34 years ago on July 31 that I saw that movie at Radio City Music Hall. HmmmmAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!
Let's keep this example of miscegenation a secret from Jesse Helms.
I dumped at 242 at 1400 and they were opening the bridge as of 1445 still no service and trains being turned at 215,207 and Dyckman st.
That sounds very normal. Had to weigh the bridge down on several occasions with a L/U on M track. Said it was a bad electrical contact or something. With out the train on the bridge, the bridge circuits still read the bridge as being open. Needless to say, the train returned to the yard all pretty COLORS
Got dropped on your next trip?
That bridge has been historic for getting stuck when snow isn't flying. Even the year they floated it into place, they'd sometimes need to bring in fireboats to cool it down enough to drop that last half inch.
The always pick 10AM and 2PM to open up the bridge. The opened it up on Thursday and it messed me up I went 1 intervel behind with my interval ABD do to no train so I had a 10 Minute gap in service without any skips. I made it to New Lots 8 Minutes late and two No.1 trains directly behind me. I'm not use to being at the head of the daily West side congo line.
That bridge has been the bane of many a crew's existence. If I were king of the IRT, I'd put some folks there with sledges to bang it back down when it's been opened. :)
I hate that bridge. That bridge is one of the reasons I left the A division. Had a Killer 2 to new lots am job ,guess what I was supposed to get to V C at 156 but the bridge usually was OPEN!!!!!!!!!!Either had to sit at 215 st Or get turned and wind up in Manhattan.Dont get me wrong Late clears are great but Damm 3 times a week will hurt anyone.
When does that bridge open. I have never seen it open or even move
once. E-Mail me at DiNOBILI91@aol.com. I would like to get pictures of it in the open position and possibly tape it moving up and down.
That would explain why several stations I gave lunch to was littered with block tickets....
They must have been turning a few trains south at 137th St, because clerks at 145th and 157th Sts had given out tickets.
-Stef
Story:
http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/002/775psxwc.asp
According to what I have read in Hot Times, Railroads use "Restricted Speed" tests when they want to fire workers. Now that nobody wants to work for railroads (employee abuse) they cut back on testing to be able to retain their current workforce.
So the anti employee bu$h FRA steps up weed weasel activities instad of dealing with management UNDERstaffing policies which is the real problem. If the clowns ran trains on schedule, the customer (who is King) would be happier and the peons could plan their lives and have a better family life, and normal sleep cycles, none of which matters to Al Rutter but is pushing rail accident rates to dizzying heights.
From 6:00 to 12:30 to Manhattan/Brooklyn(last leaves Northern Terminal at 12:30)
From 12:30 to 8:00 from Manhattan/Brooklyn (last leaves Southern Terminal at 8:00 pm)
Dyre riders can have their express service all day and White Plains Road riders will have increased express service.
From E 238 6:00-9:00 am (last train leaves E 238 at 9:00)
To E 238 4:00-7:00 pm (last train leaves New Lots/Utica/Flatbush/Bowling Green at 7:00)
Dyre riders will see some increased service
8:59 am Utica will still run to E 238 as usual, plus a 2:59 pm Nereid will leave to go to Utica to match that off peak train, this way there will be two local White Plains Road #5s, one each going opposite of peak direction (for those who have to travel opposite of peak direction).
I've proposed this idea before, but I think ridership at the bypassed stations south of E180th St. is too heavy for just one line running at 6 TPH during the midday hours. Now, if the #2 line had it's midday service increased to 8TPH, like the E/F, then maybe it would work.
Of course, the best way to maximize any all day express service on the 2/5 would be to swap the 2/5 northern terminals in the Bronx.
Swap the northern terminals, is that necessary? I would just send some(not all) of the <5>s to 241, then put them back into the yard
Swapping terminal would put the more heavily used route (Lexington Ave.) on the more heavily used line (White Plains Rd.), allow all WPR line trains to run express during the rush hour, and would simplify things immensley. To those who say that the WPR line should have the 24/7 Manhattan access as opposed to the Dyre Ave. branch, I'd say that the West End line gets heavier patronage, yet it has always been served with a late night shuttle as opposed to the Sea Beach line, which has 24/7 Manhattan access.
The only problem is the Dyre Ave riders who will cry like babies when they see their unjustified express service moved.
It was like that before, but the MTA switched it because more people on the Dyre line took the Lexington Line. However they left some rush hour(5)s that would go to 241 Street (first express to Gun Hill Road, then express to just 180 Street only).
If you swapped terminals, would you have a <2> go to 238/241 or a <5> going to Dyre as well?
What about the #3, would it remain local or go express as well?
It was like that before, but the MTA switched it because more people on the Dyre line took the Lexington Line. However they left some rush hour(5)s that would go to 241 Street (first express to Gun Hill Road, then express to just 180 Street only).
It was changed because they wanted the WPR line to have 24/7 Manhattan access. More people want the Lexington Ave line, no matter which Bronx branch you're talking about.
If you swapped terminals, would you have a <2> go to 238/241 or a <5> going to Dyre as well?
No, all #5 trains would go to 241st, all #2's would go to Dyre Ave. Very simple. Dyre Ave. has fewer riders, fewer stations, and gets to 149th/3rd Ave in the same amount of time going completely local than a train from 241st St. does running express south of E180th St.
What about the #3, would it remain local or go express as well?
It was like that before, but the MTA switched it because more people on the Dyre line took the Lexington Line. However they left some rush hour(5)s that would go to 241 Street (first express to Gun Hill Road, then express to just 180 Street only).
It was changed because they wanted the WPR line to have 24/7 Manhattan access. More people want the Lexington Ave line, no matter which Bronx branch you're talking about.
If you swapped terminals, would you have a <2> go to 238/241 or a <5> going to Dyre as well?
No, all #5 trains would go to 241st, all #2's would go to Dyre Ave. Very simple. Dyre Ave. has fewer riders, fewer stations, and gets to 149th/3rd Ave in the same amount of time going completely local than a train from 241st St. does running express south of E180th St.
What about the #3, would it remain local or go express as well?
The #3 doesn't go to the Bronx.
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The #3 doesn't go to the Bronx.
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Yes it does, during rush hours and beginning of late nights.
6 #3 trains enter the Bronx daily (except weekends) 4 go to/come from E 180 Street and go to/come from either 238 or 241 Street
The #3 isn't scheduled to go to the Bronx.
A few #3 trains ARE scheduled to go into the Bronx in the afternoon and late night (and come out of the Bronx in the morning). It's not any kind of real service pattern, however.
David
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It was changed because they wanted the WPR line to have 24/7 Manhattan access. More people want the Lexington Ave line, no matter which Bronx branch you're talking about
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So the #5 was a shuttle from 241 to 180 Street during nights before the switch? The White Plains Road Shuttle.
Before the Dyre line was integrated with the #2 line, didn't the #2 go to only 241 during rush hours and the #5 went to 241 all the time?
The #2 used to be cut and the #5 ran all the time before?
Well, let's look at, say, 1959. The forerunner of the #5 ran to 241 St at all times except late nights, when the forerunner of the #2 would take its place. This same #2 would run to Dyre at other times, while the Dyre-180 shuttle ran late nights.
My guess is this service pattern continued until the #2 and #5 swapped terminals.
Volunteer webmaster needed for a transit oriented group. The site is not designed to compete with this site or any other existing site. I represent a group of transit employees who would like a place for employees to print forms, read official news, look up bulletins, have job oriented discussions, etc. this person should know HTML and coding. I already have a domain registered.We would pay you a monthly fee for starting the site and training me as a turnkey operation. You'd also be given space for a page of your own on the domain.(Your page would be udner your control but we'd be able to review it to be sure we do not obecj to your content- i.e. you wont overthrow the government or do some criminal action.)
The site should be compatible with Frotn Page 2002 but not use the server extensions.
If interested please e-mail me off-site. Do not take up dave's bandwidth!
I could send you proposed layout, e-mails or CDs with forms and bulletins, etc. or coudl meet with you at a mutual location in NYC.
The proposed site ,once again, will not compete with this site, TWU sites or Harry's site but complement them like this site complements the MTA site.
Ever try?
http://www.msnusers.com/Local100Hideout/
It's for employees only and has forms like take AVA and all that stuff in pdf format.
conversions to storage trailers ..... sent to farms used for homes
homeless shelters in cities towns etc...( & for needy families )
plenty of places where they could be used for homes converted !!
used for diners ( would work great in da' western states )
At least a good set of em sent to & displayed at NY NY ( las vegas )!!
send them to other countries that use used usa built rail equip.
At least re-cyclye the metal re use it properly instead of polluting
our earth mother & the life giving atlantic ocean at dat'...!!
Sorry folks i do have a social responsibility side connection etc...
( just a comment folks ) !!!
BRING BACK THE HI VS & LO VS !!! ...........lol !!
***A*S*B*E*S*T*O*S***. Steam engines were loaded with the stuff. If the same fears and knowledge we have now existed in the '50s there would be ZERO steam engines left anywhere in North America
mr blair what about the steam locomotive museums and museum trains
i saw in georgia ?? one was a beauty !! 1951 steam locomotive
nofolk / western !! even the orange empire museum, peris ca. has
operational steam locomotives that still run !! i know you know that!
The asbestos has been removed from nearly all steam locomotives in America and replaced with a substitute thermal insulation in operating engines and with wooden strips to hold the jacketing to shape. The jacketing is a thin sheet metal covering over the entire boiler. Between the jacketing and the boiler shell is the lagging or insulation. This is either asbestos or a substitute.
then the same could be done with the redbirds
could be done ..............!!
thankz !!
It was looked into. I seem to recall hearing that professionally decontaminating EACH CAR would cost $35 Thousand Dollars. The steam engines were done long before there were many regulations or complicated legal issues. Regulations "cut both ways" - for the most part they are for the best but like anything else, no situation is perfect and this is the result.
And... you do not have to abate the asbestos if you are going to leave it alone and not make any renovations to the locomotive. It is only when you plant to do such work as would expose the asbestos that you have to spend the money to correctly abate it.
If you were going to reconfigure redbirds for any of the applications that you have suggested, or even to refurbish them to run as railroad cars, you would be doing such work as would require these abatements.
There comes a point where a working machine meets the end of its existance. (period)
Elias
"There comes a point where a working machine meets the end of its existance. (period)" Maybe so, but if it were not for the asbestos, a redbird carbody could be resurected. Trolley museums routinely take cars which were used as chicken coops for decades and rebuild them like new. A redbird is "near mint" in comparison. As for display steamers, the jacketing is as thin as stove pipe metal but ungalvanized. ANY locomotive which has asbestos MUST be remediated.
If a machine does come to the end of its life. Atleast replace it with something respectable, unlike the R-142s.
A new R-142 is atleast a million. $35,000<$1,000,000
More about $1,500,000.
A new R-142 is atleast a million. $35,000<$1,000,000
Thing is that the R-142's are going to be around another 40 years, whereas the redbirds would be gone in a few more years.
The Redbirds are excellent running cars. If the TA wanted to, the cars can be converted to stainless steel.
Then the Redbirds will become known as the SILVER HAWKS.
Pass it on.
Very true....just dump out the rotted carbody and smack on a new one...every system in the car is readily maintainable...but wouldn't such a change interfere with 'progress?' The first inspection taught to me by a fellow CI...Redbird carbody...rings with my 'teachers incantations.' 'ONE STEP FOWARD AND TWO STEPS BACKWARD...PROGRESS IS OUR ONLY SETBACK.' Komrades...ees Pravda. CI Peter
just like da' r32 - r 38s !!
i posted dis' idea & got no responses ...........it mad too much
sense !! ...............lol.......!!
So what? There are still ACTIVE ***A*S*B*E*S*T*O*S***, open pit, strip mines in the Province of Quebec as of 1999. They have a nice viewing platform of the mines which is very close to the site. The strip mine (main one, counted 4 other smaller ones, 2 unstarted (topsoil removed), and 8 retired ones (trees, brush)) is 1 or 2 (maybe 3) miles in diameter.
I know they're dumped in the oceans to build new reefs and all of that, but I agree - there's lots of other purposes they can serve. It seems like such a waste. The only thing I can say is this practice has probably been done since the first Manhattan Elevateds were scrapped. Sadly, there's nothing I or anyone else can do to stop it (much as I'd like to). It's been going on for a long time.
I recall once Caroll O'Connor saying on an episode of All of the Family - "A woman is like a streetcar, the oceans are full of them!"
The simple reason that the 'birds are sleeping with the fishes is not waste, but money. Asbestos removal for future use, as salaamallah suggested would cost more than the entire scrap value of the cars. Asbestos won't post a hazard under water - it's only when exposed to air that it poses a health hazard.
As to the Manhattan El car (and Brooklyn) scrappings, since the MUDC and BU's were wood, they were burned to recover any metal that could be salvaged, just like 99% of the streetcars that were driven from the streets in the 1930's on.
Just an interesting side note: Virginia has offered up to $900 per car if some of the 'birds can be dumped off their coast. When the next major group is scrapped, betcha there will be competition for dumping sites.
''Asbestos won't post a hazard under water ''...?????...........!!!!
any science study been done to prove dat'....????
''Asbestos won't post a hazard under water ''...?????...........!!!!
any science study been done to prove dat'....????
Yes. In fact it has (sort of).
Asbestos is naturally occuring, and lives in the ground and ground waters. And, since carcinogen studies generally only apply to people, the hazzard here being breathing the dust... I have it on good authority that we do not breathe seawater.
OK, that really isn't the best answer, but since it is a naturally occuring organic substance already found in the soils....
Elias
"A woman is like a streetcar, the oceans are full of them!"
!! so they did that to streetcars too ???..........terrible !!!
No, most streetcars were burned and scrapped, including PCC's. Asbestos wasn't a problem then. Medical science wasn't as advanced. In the 1940's and 50's the connection between asbestos and cancer wasn't discoved yet.
Crying for the 'birds isn't going to change one thing. They are worn out. The cost of rebuilding them for future service is not worth spending the money. Just as a question, how many early 1950 automobiles are running around? Not many, and the ones that are still running are treasures to their owners.
Just like the jewels in every streetcar/railway museum in the country.
"homeless shelters in cities towns etc...( & for needy families )"
I spend much time working witht he disadvantaged in the City, and not making light of their plight, but they would probably prefer their current accomodations to a rust bird.
MATT-2AV
Yesterday I was walking along the Misourri River, it was very hot out, and some girls were swiming near the shore while the boys were hotdogging their skidoos in the water. I saw some shade up ahead and walked under the shadow of the bridge. The Railroad Bridge. It was the first bridge across the Missouri in Bismarck, and it carries several mile long coal trains daily.
Then I got to examining the bridge, but dang if those steel beams under the rails were not smaller than those found on the old els. Now you cannot tell me that 100 loaded coal cars are lighter than a subway train.
A little Down stream is the highway bridge. It was built 10 - 20 years after the railroad bridge. It carries one lane of traffic in each direction. It just finished a major overhaul that kept it out of service for a year or more. But what is this... I read in the paper that it needs to be completely rebuilt or replaced *sometime soon*. Apparently the hindge plates that hold the bridge to the piers have frozen up and squished down, and are in any event no longer functional.
People ask "Why does this bridge need to be replaced already, while the railroad bridge does not. "It's the Cars" they explain, and that they use salt on the roadway (I was not aware that they used salt on ND roadways, but *that* *is* what they said.)
Clearly cars are more detrimental to bridges than 100 car coal trains pulled by the heaviest of diesel locomotives. And I looked at the railroad bridge, at it slender ironworks, and I looked at the highway bridge at its massive iron works, and I looke at (in my mind's eye) the Manhattan Bridge, and I wonder who the culprit in this story really is.
Elias
Lots of things go into letting bridges get sick.
Salt is certainly a factor. But also, is there a place for water to collect and never dry out, or freeze and thaw repeatedly? In a simple steel structure with no concrete, it is less likely that water of any kind will sit for weeks on end. Concrete had the problem that you can get tiny cracks that allow water in, and then with the years of freeze/thaw cycles the cracks get bigger, etc., etc.
Also, steel bridges need to be scraped and painted from time to time, and then they can last forever. But sometimes the bridge owner defers maintenance.
The Manhattan Bridge of course has one more issue: heavy trains are on the very outside of the bridge, causing stresses that probably weren't expected by the designers. I'm sure the rail bridge over the Missouri, like almost all rail bridges, is constructed so that heavy loads are directly supported by the infrastructure.
Railroad bridges, especially the older (before World War 2) ones, were notoriously overbuilt. Part of this was the science of bridge building, which was not as understood as it is today (and the Brooklyn Bridge is an example of this, with its redundancy - the designers/builders wanted to ensure it didn't fall down). Another factor was steam locomotives, which pounded rails, structures, etc with their reciprocating drivers which produced great impacts. These impacts (and their accompanying loads) had to be accounted in the design of bridges. Thus, the bridges were built much stronger than highway bridges.
Salt is another factor, as is drainage. Water has to be removed. If it accumulates anywhere, it will cause damage. If it has the added corrosive factor of salt in it, worse things will happen. I'm sure North Dakota salts like crazy. Freeze-thaw is another major problem in any structure but that would affect both the highway bridge and the railroad bridge.
Of course, railroads can control the weight and speed of vehicles crossing their bridges. Highway agencies often cannot do this. If you look at statistics on trucks, a fairly large percent of them are found to be overweight. When a bridge's design loading considers a 40-ton truck and the trucks are consistently heavier, this will contribute to the bridge's demise. (Keep in mind that, only a few years ago, the load limit for trucks in most states was 36 tons. If bridges were designed for that, and the law allows bigger and heavier trucks, the bridge doesn't automatically become able to support the higher loadings.) There are factors of safety which account for higher loads, but, again, the factors of safety might be lower than they have to be with the larger trucks.
Lastly, railroad bridges often don't get the amount of wear and tear that highway bridges do. Even if a train crossed a railroad bridge every 5 minutes, that would amount to 288 crossings in a day. In the same day, the highway bridge could get in excess of 5000 vehicles using it (and that would be a not-so-busy bridge in the scheme of things). Yes, the train could be longer and heavier, but the bridge is still getting much less use (and abuse) compared to the highway bridge.
You indirectly bring up an interesting question. What is the weight on a heavily loaded rail wheel vs. a heavily loaded truck wheel? It's probably the individual point stresses that hurt a bridge rather than the overall load of the entire truck or train. After all, dilapidated rural bridges often have a maximum weight per axle rather than a max weight per vehicle.
There are all orts of factors involoved that there probably isn't one thing that is causing it. I can't imagine that your local DOT is stupid enough to put salt over a steel bridge, so I would rule that out.
The rail bridge is exposed to WAY more stress than a road bridge. A road bridge has lots of low weight vehicles crossing all the time, a rail bridge has a heavy vehicle crossing every once in a while. Think about it like this: a person poking your arm with their finger every two seconds won't hurt. But if that person punched you every two minutes, you'd have a huge bruise after a while.
So why is the road bridge failing? My guess is defered maintenance, that's why the Manny B is under repair and NOT because the subways are on the outside edges.
So why is the road bridge failing? My guess is defered maintenance, that's why the Manny B is under repair and NOT because the subways are on the outside edges.
Well the issue with that bridge is that they just finished an extensive overhaul of it. But the didn't (couldn't do) the place where the plates meet the piers. A hindge sort of a construction is no longerfunctioning as designed. ad is transferring forces in a way that seems to harm the piers.
Elias
eBay Item 2119308078, closes early tomorrow Sunday, July 14
That looked like an original (the ERA reprinted it), yet it only went for $9.99. Could the market for these maps really be saturated?
I think so many reprints of the 1939 map have been sold on eBay that it really has been saturated. And no-where in any of the descriptions did it ever say they were reprints.
At least I can trust when Joe Saitta states that something is original - he really has put some rare items up for bid.
As I say, Joe's map looked like the real thing.
A couple of years ago I sold a copy of the c.1965 reprint of the BMT PCC brochure on eBay, and made no bones that it was the reprint. I got about half what the same reprint was selling for where people (including probably the seller) thought it was an original.
Caveat emptor.
It's kind of strange, when you look at the bidding history for that map, there were two other bidders.
One bid $14.09 and the other bid $25.50.
Both retracted their bids for "Error in listing" ??
While waiting at an auto repair shop on E. Tremont Ave. early this afternoon, I see a northbound train, Acela Regional, being towed by said engine; at the angle I was sitting I couldn't see the number. Only thing was that in tow aside from the 8 passenger cars was an Acela engine. And, the train was doing good speed too.
Oh Boy, what happen to the Acela HHP-8 Engine now???
Must have been something bad, 'cause the pantographs were down on the Acela engine.
Oh, so damn the AEM-7 is powerful enough to pull a engine and 8 Amfleets??? Damn
Remember in the pre-Acela times, AEM-7s used to pull up to 10 Amfleets and sometimes one or two MHCs on the ends, done quite a few times by ONLY one AEM-7. This was evident on the Boston-NYC-D.C. trains.
The Acela HHP-8 is much more powerful than that.
Yeah but the HHP-8 wasn't powering much that day, huh? lol Good ol' AEM-7 had to save the day.
Actually, the HHP-8 isn't trhat much more powerful. It's got a higher starting TE and slightly higher HP, but otherwise, it's not much better. Once you get above 15mph, HP becomes dominant over TE (not ahesion), and then the difference becomes smaller. So It'll be better out of the station, but once it's rolling, they're both the same more or less. Actually, I've noticed the HHP-8s are actually slower accelerators than the AEM-7s, for some dumb reason.
Actually there are 3 differences between the AEM-7 and the HHP-8. 1)HHP-8 has more Horsepower 2)HHP-8 has a max speed of 135 mph, AEM-7 has a Max of 125 mph 3)The Acela HHP-8 looks better and is longer than the AEM-7. That's my opinion.
However, in the Amtrak's employee timetable, the maximum speed of HHP-8 is only 125 mph.
Chaohwa
Oh, That timetable is bullshit, those HHP-8's goes at 135 mph.
Forget it. If you as an enginer exceed the posted speed by timetable or special order, the speed recorder in the motor (I use PRR termology, BTW) will get you a couple of days off.
What I meant was that the Engine's max speed is 135, I already know the max allowed speed.
Maybe in MSTS, but in real life other things play a part. I'm sure that an AEM-7 could make it to 135, of course light, or with a minimal load, but still, it's doing 135. The reason that the HHP-8 could appear to accelerate more slowly is that both the HHP-8 and AEM-7 use similar rectification systems, the AEM-7 is lighter, with less TE, but as Mr. Nasadowski pointed out, above 15 mph, horsepower is all that matters, the AEM-7 has 7000, and is very light, but the HHP-8 has 8000, and is slightly heavier. When TE goes out the window, it becomes a drag race, and there the engine putting the most power on the track with the lightest weight wins.
Also the AEM-7ACs have IGBT, which reduces the gearing type noises, and undoubtedly improves the performence of the engine. The HHP-8s us GTOs, which have a lag period where it is in between stages, i think. These differing systems could account for the better acceleration in the AEM-7.
Is there any way to talk Amtrak into more AEM-7s? Perhaps we can see how the ALP-46s turn out, they would look pretty good in the AEM-7 scheme (although knowing amtrak they'd just slap some Acela-type scheme on them, oh well). It'd be worth the cost to see the HHP-8s and Acelas follow the UA turbos, Pooches, SPVs, etc, etc, ad nauseum...
Also the AEM-7ACs have IGBT, which reduces the gearing type noises, and undoubtedly improves the performence of the engine.
Actually, it just provides a much faster switching speed of the semiconductors. IGBT inverters can, and do, do some degree of frequency shifting. IGBTs give you fast switching without high drive currents, and they can tolerate certain things better. I forget what the next generation will be, but I believe ABB and others are already looking past IGBTs for large industrial drives. The idea is faster switching speeds, which give better control and more efficiency.
The HHP-8s us GTOs, which have a lag period where it is in between stages, i think. These differing systems could account for the better acceleration in the AEM-7.
What you're thinking of is switching speed. GTOs can't be turned on and off as fast as an IGBT can. This is partly because of various electrical things related to them - they take a lot of power to turn on, to turn off, and they "kick back" at the driver circuit, which blows up the driver circuit if any of it's protective diodes die. The IGBT is a faster switching device, and speed means efficiency with these types of drives. (If it were instant, things would be great)
Is there any way to talk Amtrak into more AEM-7s?
Nope. Nobody makes locomotives like that anymore. They were state of the art when new, but dinosaurs today.
Perhaps we can see how the ALP-46s turn out, they would look pretty good in the AEM-7 scheme (although knowing amtrak they'd just slap some Acela-type scheme on them, oh well).
I can't wait for the inevitable 'shoot outs' between the HHP-8 and ALP-46. The 8's got the power advantge, but the 46 has less weight and a different design for its propulsion system.
Interestingly, the ALP-46 has a central corridor through it between cabs - the inverters are along the walls of the locomotive, along with the other equipment. The transformer is underfloor, like most modern (electric) locomotives.
It'd be worth the cost to see the HHP-8s and Acelas follow the UA turbos, Pooches, SPVs, etc, etc, ad nauseum...
I suspect the Acelas and HHP-8s won't ever be duplicated again, since they're both dinosaurs that are buggy, to boot.
since when do AEM-7s have a computer in that you have to boot?
after the overhaul.right
eghhh! :-[
People are throwing these power electronics jargons around. Let's just make sure everyone understands here (I for one, don't quite get it):
Actually, it just provides a much faster switching speed of the semiconductors. IGBT inverters can, and do, do some degree of frequency shifting.
A diode is an electronic device that will only allow current to flow in one direction. So current flows from A to B if voltage (potential) at A is higher than voltage at B, but not from B to A, even if the voltage at B is higher.
Thrystor is a is a diode that needs to be turned on. The thrystor has a third terminal that is called the gate. Let's call it G. A thrystor is turned on (i.e. allows current to flow from A to B) if the voltage at A is higher than both the voltage at G and voltage at B. However once turned on, the thrystor will continue to allow current to flow from A to B, even if voltage at G drops off.
GTO = Gate Turn-off
A GTO thrystor will allow current to flow from A to B only if current at both A and G are higher than B. Current will never flow from B to A. If the voltage at G drops off, then current is cut between A and B. So in a sense it acts like a power amplifier (or a fairly basic NPN transistor). The current flow between A and B is driven by the waveform between G and ground.
A GTO chopper is a circuit that uses GTO thrystors to chop DC waveforms into AC waveforms. Because the driving waveform (input at G) can vary in frequency, you can generate a variable-frequency, high-current AC waveform between A and B. The motor is then connected between B and ground.
IGBT = Inverted Gate Bipolar Transistor(?)
So instead of a thrystor, we are now back to a transistor. Phil and Wdobner -- ? for you guys. What the hell is the difference? IGBT sounds like they are functionally the same as a GTO thrystor, but somehow work faster and and current at G can be even lower (so the amplifier gain is better). Right?
Why Inverted Gate?
What is a bipolar transistor (yes, a transistor with two poles, but how is it different from a thrystor?)
The HHP-8s us GTOs, which have a lag period where it is in between stages,
In between stages. WHICH stages? Normally when we talk about stages, we are talking about a DC motor that has different field stages. Then we have transistion stages for an AC motor meaning that you can drive the motor at 0.5x, x, 2x, 3x etc of the speed of rotation (i.e. every 2, 1, 0.5, 0.333 rotations the stator gets a kick from the AC coils, right?) So what the hell does "lag period between stages" mean? As in the control circuit that drives the GTO thrystor at G cannot change between different frequencies in a discrete fashion quickly enough?
IGBT is a faster switching device, and speed means efficiency with these types of drives.
Wait. Why? GTO thrystors might give a sloppier waveform at the output end if the signal at G was driving it faster than it can handle (in terms of d(voltage)/dt). However why would a sloppy waveform matter if all you want to do is drive a motor with it? Besides, wouldn't you phase-shift the signal at G to compensate for the characteristics of the GTO thrystor? Is it a nonlinear sloppiness that the electronics that drives signal at G cannot predict? Why can't they use a feedback system?
I want to know why speed means efficiency in those drives. I understand that the lower driving current and the no kickback from IGBT's are advantages. But what about speed?
AEM7
Oh yeah, and what the hell is a "Forced Commutated Bridge"? (circuit diagrams will help)
Is that in an rectifier you are forcing the commutation by using a drive signal and using thrystors in place of normal bridge diodes? How does that help the efficiency of the transmission?
Someone talk me through an AC motor. I'm confused as hell. AFAIK this is how it works:
AEM-7:
25kV -> Fixed Transformer -> GTO Thrystor Bridge Chopper Rectifier -> Smoothing Capacitors -> DC Motors
HHP-8:
25kV -> Fixed Transformer -> GTO Thrystor Bridge Chopper Rectifier -> Smoothing Capacitors -> GTO Thrystor Inverters -> AC Motors
AEM-7AC:
25kV -> Fixed Transformer -> GTO Thrystor Bridge Chopper Rectifier -> Smoothing Capacitors -> IGBT Thrystor Inverters -> AC Motors
What did I get wrong?
AEM7
(see the previous post for more questions -- please answer them!)
Off the street you know far more than most CIs. IGBT....isolated (or insulated) gate bipolar transistors. New Tech isn't complicated....just requires learning the steps. All these transistorised switchers do is take 600 VDC and make three phase AC like a commutator does in reverse...switch AC in sync to provide alternating magnetic fields. SCRs switch DC...triacs are double SCRs that switch AC. Thyristors are more like zeners having a conduction point. What the propulsion system in these trainsets does is to convert DC into three phase AC without the loss inherent in commutator brushes and speed/current is controlled much like the trigger in a variable speed electric drill. A 'take-off' from the IGBT is used to provide 230 VAC for HVAC systems and there is even a 120 VAC outlet for service use. Old timers complain that DC provides more traction power...but you will never see any of them going undercar to inspect and replace worn commutator brushes. The frequency does change a little...you can hear it from the traction motors and propulsion cases...but the system does more to change applied duty cycle to the motor fields, just like the electric drill. Simple, easy and clean. CI Peter
Thanks Peter. I appreciate it. It's good knowing how the system can work on a DC-juice AC-drive subway car in addition to the mainline trains. I had never really thought about it in the R142, but now it makes sense.
AEM7
"Is there any way to talk Amtrak into more AEM-7s?"
Ok, Have you been drinking lately?
"Perhaps we can see how the ALP-46s turn out, they would look pretty good in the AEM-7 scheme (although knowing amtrak they'd just slap some Acela-type scheme on them, oh well).
The ALP-46's would look good in the Acela Paint Scheme.
I wonder if Amtrak can order Acela Trainsets, but a Diesel Type for Long Distance, Perhaps a Bi-Level Diesel Acela Trainset, just like the TGV Duplex.
Have you seen the Diesel hi speed acela.Its red.It can acheive 150mph+ too.IT made by bombardier.Its on the website.I hope those ALP-46's do well.
You mean the Turboliners, I seen them painted in to Acela Paint Scheme, I think it serves for the Acela Commuter Service. I was talking about the Electric Acela Trainset, Maybe they can buy Acela Express Trainsets in Diesel Version.
No, I think he means the gas turbine test vehicle which looks similar to the HHP-8 engine, as can be seen here
Oh S**t, that Engine looks hot, it doesnt look nothing like the HHP-8, it looks very similar to the Acela Express Trainset, Does anyone have anymore information on this Loco? Is it gonna coupled into a trainset like the Acela Express? Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005
It is expirimental. See the link to the FRA website someone else posted here.
I went there already, I gotta tell ya, that Loco looks great, I hate red, but It kinda looks good on the Loco.
You missed a signal (red - get tripped).
The word is diesel, not turbo.
Here is the link you didn't know about.
http://www.fra.dot.gov/rdv/nextgen/
Read it and take it from there (signal is now yellow over yellow).
Since mister Gunn hates the Acela. Amtrak won't paint any new Rolling Stock in Acela colors unless it has tilting tech.
That Jacka**, I hope he resigns very soon or he gets fired!
Wow, that's a smart idea. Bring in a guy with a reputation for righting ships, but let's fire him because he doesn't like the color scheme.
Shmuck.
-Hank
AE2005
Here is David Gunn's background from Amtrak's Press release:
"Gunn most recently served as Chief General Manager at the Toronto Transit Commission from 1995 until 1999. Managing the largest transit system in Canada, he led 10,000 employees serving 1.3 million daily passengers with a system of 1,500 buses, 650 heavy rail cars and 250 streetcars. In this position, he improved the system’s cost recovery ratio from 66% to over 80% and implemented a State of Good Repair Capital Program.
Prior to leading the Toronto Transit Commission, Gunn was the General Manager for the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) from 1991-1994. While at WMATA, Gunn developed the accelerated construction plan and initiated building of three of four remaining segments of the planned 103-mile rail system. Gunn also developed and implemented a multi-year $1 billion capital rehabilitation program, and strongly improved productivity at the agency.
Gunn was the President of the New York City Transit Authority from 1984 through 1990, and is credited for establishing strong fiscal controls, corporate goals and performance measures, while rebuilding track, railcar and bus fleets at the nation’s largest transit system.
From 1979 through 1984 Gunn was General Manager/Chief Operations Officer for the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA). In this position, he reduced the system’s operating costs from $138 million to $97 million per year, while rebuilding and replacing its subway cars, buses, trackless trolleys, and trolley fleets. He also planned and negotiated the takeover of Philadelphia's 400-mile, 800-train-per-day commuter rail system from Conrail and Amtrak.
Among Gunn's other past executive positions, he worked for the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority as the Director of Operations in 1975-1979 and as Director of Commuter Rail in 1974-1975. From 1969 through 1974, Gunn was the Assistant Vice-President for the Illinois Central Gulf Railroad. He worked for the New York Central System in 1967-1968 and for the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad in 1964-1967 at the beginning of his career.
Gunn graduated from Harvard College in 1959 and continued his education at Harvard Graduate School of Business, where he received his MBA in 1964. From 1959 to 1962, Mr. Gunn served in the U.S. Naval Reserve."
JJust because you don't like his comments on your holy Acela, your wrote him off. It's like not liking a teacher you have because you failed his first pop quiz on the second day of class and you don't like his shoes. He has more experience in railroads than anyone else. He worked commuter rail from Boston to Washington (end points of your Acela).
So, it is the same David Gunn Who ran NYCT. I don't think that Acela realizes what this guy did for NYCT, and what he could do for Amtrak.
Some of us do, and enjoyed all hell out of him knocking the politicos upside the head with a sock full of quarters. Homey the clown would be proud. :)
There is a school of thought out there that Gunn is a transit manager and not a railroad manager. There is a difference.
For me, the realization that Amtrak long-haul is part of the whole system proves to me that he is the best man for the job. I was afraid that Gunn would run the NEC like a transit district. The irony is that Warrington with his NJTransit tendencies ran the NEC into the ground more than Gunn, the transit manager, did. Soon enough, when the money permits, Gunn would probably come to the conclusion that regional menus in the dining cars are part of the long-haul system, too. We'll find New England Clam Chowda served onboard the Acela and the Northeast Direct between BOS and NYP, and we'll find Philly Steak served only between NYP and WAS.
Warrington pales in comparison, even if he made people like AcelaExpress2005 love his newest creation.
AEM7
There is nothing SO parochial as local transit or the minds of congressfish. To me, he's a natural. Have some faith. The man has HUGE brass clangers and UTU and BLE has suddenly noticed as well. Local politicos are MUCH more mature than what's in congress these days. Let's all head down to the "Acela," there's a twister comin'. :)
I still don't like him for getting rid of the Acela name, It's good that he made changes but but changing the Acela is just plain wrong.
okay, you have a 'personal' opinion. And some of us were disgusted wih the name and the 'branding' from the get go. So The Real Issue is will Gunn manage to shape up the operation, AND force Congress to cough up enough money on a regular basis. While I would revert to traditional tran names in the NEC Morning Congressional, Senator, etc, I geneuinely care less if they are reliable, clean and affordable. Which is about what my sister said to one of their telephone survey people several years back==they sent her an ekevation drawing of the Acela "power car" nose. They weren't listening.
Acela, that train is packaged VERY BADLY. What is good for Gunn is good for Passenger Rail in America. also, his stint with Santa Fe which CAME AT A TIME WHEN ATSF WAS BUYING NEW PASSENGER LOCOMOTIVES assures that Mr. Gunn is a seasoned, multi-disciplined Professional with ALL the talents and experience necessary to provide the VERY BEST SHOT to save America's national passenger rail system. IF HE CAN'T DO IT, NO ONE CAN.
If Gunn fails, Amtrak is TOAST, along with any hope of an integrated rail system for America. The money spent on that BUTT UGLY new paint scheme and corporate image for Amtrak should have been spent on improved service to sell more tickets. Warrington was the Jacka**! While I am NOT a PRR or NH Fan, "American Flyer" (the working name for that poor equipment which that IDIOT Warrington pasted the acela label onto) train services should be referred to according to the destination market. Boston trains could be called Shoreliner Service and Washington bound trains could be operated as Congressional Limited service. the AWFUL acela name and pastel colors belong in the GARBAGE.
Bravo!!
poor equipment which that IDDOT Warrington pasted
... What has Warrington got to do with Idaho DOT? Does he shop potatos?
the AWFUL acela name and pastel colors belong in the GARBAGE.
Whoa. I'm not an Acela fan and I thought that was a little strong. I think the HHP-8's look good in Acela. I thought that AEM-7ACs could be painted Acela colours to distinguish them from AEM-7's. I thought the Acela boxcar with "ExpressTrek" logos look pretty cool. Maybe "Acela" should be the brand name for Amtrak freight. After all, Acela paint schemes look better on boxcars than they do passenger equipment.
Repainting the Amfleet cars and remodelling the Amfleet Cafes was the biggest mistake of the Warrington regime.
AEM7
I gotta agree, Repainting the Amfleets was just wrong, The Amfleets look ugly with the Acela Paint Scheme.
I think the amfleets look best in the Phase 4 Scheme.IT LOOKS GOOD WITH THE aem-7 IN ACELA PAINT.
R142/R143MAN
AMTRAK
You don't know how a railroad car looks. It's time to send you to get a Great Pennsy education.
You don't know how a railroad car looks. It's time to send you to get a Great Pennsy education.
AEM7
Altoona Shops
Penn-Central Consolidated Holdings Corporation
I the Acela is not Garbage! The Acela Paint Scheme is the best yet. If all of you think otherwise, thats your problem.
THE acela paint looks good on everythinG except the amfleets.Give it a break.WHat do you think.
well, IMHO its butt ugly, however I don't expect ATK to ever have a gorgeous paint scheme like those of the classic streamliners. A the money is better spent on mechanical upkeep and car cleaning, B choosing any of the prettier schemes would 'defeat' the national image/character concept.
I wonder how the Superliners would look with the Acela Paint Scheme, LOL!
thats a good point.i dont know about that look
the acela paint scheme looks crap on aem7's. it is poorly adapted. it should be extended so that it disguises the aem7's square looking front:
The sweep of the curve gives the impression of speed. I like it!
Reminds me of the paint schemes to the streamline era of the 1930s. Very classy.
Mark
Thats a Great Pic! Where did you scoop that up from?
http://paintshop.railfan.net/
http://paintshop.railfan.net/
That site has line drawings of various locomotives which can be imported into MS Paint and colorized.
http://paintshop.railfan.net/backlot/acela_gg1.jb2.html
OK. I'm now waiting for a response from a teen age railfan who loves the Acela Express and is in the class of 2005 in high school.
Cover your ears!
Actually, that looks pretty cool... LOL
He put the unit #'s too close to the ends, and he should not have painted / over the lourves. Those are a pain to paint and maintain.
AEM7
aren't they cute? i wonder if my kids would do anything like this... makes me want to have children...
aem7
in this geezer's opinion--right down there with PC mating worms over black.
Oh Hell Na!!! That piece of sh*t is ugly with the Acela Paint Scheme! Couldn't they pick something a little classier??
Hey, are you talking about the GG-1??
Someone who likes a ugly piece of junk like the Acela has no room to sat stuff like "That piece of sh*t is ugly".
If you think the GG-1 is anything other than a great locomotive, you know NOTHING about trains.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, And I think the GG-1 would disgrace the Acela Name if it had it's paint scheme.
How DARE you belittle the GG1! I think YOU disgrace the Acela name by using it as your handle. Heh heh. And disgracing the Acela name is pretty hard to do...
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! HOW DARE YOU! I don't like the GG-1 and that's that, it looks like piece of garbage with that paint scheme.
Actually, I thought it was demening to the GG1 to be painted in such a SLOW paint Scheme!
Brunswick Green or Tuscan Red, with five gold pinstripes... it doesn't get any better than that!
Elias
CHILDREN!!!BAH!!!
WHOA!!!! I aint no child! Get that Straight
I support the GG1s...
but the E60s... no
Calm down, son some day you'll GROW UP
That's a much better way of putting what I said, I guess.....
That joint is hot .Where did you get that from
Wow! Send a copy of that to AMTRAK!!!
That paint on an AEM7 Sorta reminds me of the shape of an HHP-8 Not a bad idea, on second thought.
Well, people seem to like it, so I extended it a little. The scheme is going to be called the "New England Shoreliner" and will be applied to AEM-7AC's in Northeast Direct and Twlight Shoreliner service only. The other AEM-7's (in Keystone service, Clocker service, and running mail trains) will continue to sport Phase III and Phase IV.
The little wave in the teal is supposed to represent Atlantic waves. An asymmetrical scheme is necessary because to cover both ends with a wave would look silly. There would need to be "left hand" and "right hand" locomotives, though obviously they will be operated both ways, so in a given scene you may see the wave leading or the wave trailing, depending on which side you are viewing the locomotive from.
Locomotives should be named. For instance, 902 is named "Dutchess Lynn" and has the name denoted on the side where the "Amtrak" name currently is. The Amtrak logo carried on P42's are applied to one side with a flat metal panel, like they are on the boxcars.
Anyone has the balls to send it to Amtrak?
AEM7
wATCH mE SEND THIS JOINT TO AMTRAK RIGHT NOW.
If you send it to them using that type of english, they *will* ignore you.
Peace,
ANDEE
I won't use my bad englinsh.I'll use my good english
Nice looking concept!
Peace,
ANDEE
That says it all!!!
That Gunn guy.he wasnt good when was herew at th TA and not good at Amtrak
GUNN WASNT GOOD AT THE TA????????
What are you on??????????
That Gunn guy. He wasnt good when was here at the TA and not good at Amtrak - R142/R143MAN
GUNN WASNT GOOD AT THE TA????????
What are you on?????????? - R30
A friend of mine worked for Gunn at ICG 25 or 30 years ago and has utmost respect for him.
Another friend is a bus driver for SEPTA and says "That SOB ruined SEPTA".
We can't rely on personal bias to predict how Gunn will work out with Amtrak.
Gunn was at ICG with ***ALAN S. BOYD***, Gunn is a FREAKING THOROUHBRED! I don't give a rat's wazoo what some bus driver thinks and as for R142/143MAN, Gunn will not tolerate certain things and if you can not deal with that, TOO BAD. and you know that I'm no knee jerk apologist for management.
Wow, when did he say this?
He's on record as saying he doesn't like that the 'rebranding', but I don't recall ever seeing where he vowed to never paint in those colors again.
-Hank
He did say that Amtrak's colors are "red white and blue, not teal and orange." So one can infer that he wouldn't like new stuff painted in that scheme.
Since when was Acela colours ORANGE?
I don't know, it's a thirdhand quote!
Thank god engineers are screened before they are hired. I wouldn't want to ride a railroad or airline where an engineer or captain thinks that timetables and procedures are bullSH$%. I would like fries with my order.
The HHP-8 is a victim of what makes a lot of the "so-called" New Tech trains today so crappy.....too much technology!! I say trains should be built now as they were back then....built to last with quality parts, not parts built cheaply and sold to the highest bidder looking to cut costs.
Well one time, while working one evening on the N out of Astoria, I saw a northbound Acela Regional train stall out midspan on the arch on Hell Gate. After like 30 minutes I had seen that this train was still there. After making an N shuttle trip to Queensboro and back, on the way back I saw a fellow AEM-7 come to the rescue. I believe the train (which the AEM-7 rescuer pulled up behind on the same track as the stalled train) hauled the train "wrong rail" back to Penn. Later after another shuttle trip, came back to notice the train had been pulled clear of the bridge, yet the signal at the south (geographic east) end of the bridge was still at danger for sometime, before being cleared back to a clear aspect. AEM-7 saves the day for one of it's own!! :-)
Well since I haven't been to the beach in awhile I figured I'd go today. The shortest part of the trip was the LI Bus ride, which was just under an hour both ways.
Going I got a Redbird on the 7, and had a window view to 74th street. I went down to the IND for a Manhattan bound E or F. Wound up waiting 10 minutes, until an F finally came.
The ride was kinda slow (and the semi-front window was covered boo!), and I got to W4th about 30 minutes later.
Went upstairs and heard about the G.O. on the E. I knew that it was running via the F due to work in the 53rd street tunnel, but they also mentioned that E's would be going to 2nd ave, so either way I'd have to get out at W4th for the A. After 10 minutes a packed R44 A train came, that said Lefferts. I figured I'd get on anyway, I'd rather wait the rest of the time at Rockaway blvd instead of W4th which stunk. It arrived on the local track. There was another G.O. in effect that I didn't see on the MTA web site, A's ran local between 125 and Canal.
Alot of people emptied out by Broadway Nassau, and the rest of the ride was fairly quick. At Rockaway Blvd I got off and waited some more, another 15 minutes for the Far Rockaway train.
It was another 44, and it was a kinda slow ride, except on the flats. Got off at Broad Channel and waited another 10 minutes for the shuttle.
Finally got to B116-Rockaway Park, almost 2 1/2 hours after I left Flushing. I spent 45 minutes of that time waiting (A)while for the subway. There really needs to be more frequent service to the Rockaways. Maybe I would've been better off going to Jones Beacha fter all!
The beach was busy, as the weather today was pretty nice. I took a walk by Neponsit and B129 in Belle Harbor, where I could see several burned out buildings from the plane crash. Man are they lucky it missed the main commercial area on B129.
Except for some "undesirables" hanging around B116 and the Boardwalk, I enjoyed the Rockaways. It just a real pain in the ass to get to without the Q53!!
Going back I took the shuttle, which did leave promptly. Wound up waiting 20 minutes for an A train at Broad Channel. Well at least this time it was an R38! Had a fast ride on the flats, and we were screaming down the Fulton express. Too bad somebody had the window though. :-(
We switched to the local after Canal (you could just hear the groaning) and I got off at W4th. I didn't have to wait long for an E train on the lower level, and had a quick and enjoyable ride to Roosevelt avenue via the 63rd street tunnel. Everything just seems more enjoyable when it aint a 75 footer.
Went upstairs and didn't have to wait long for a 7, it was packed and a Redbird, but at least the A/C was on.
Going back was quicker, it only took just over 2 hours from Rockaway Pk to Flushing.
Some interesting stuff goes on though down there, when the train crosses the south channel bridge, the A/C goes out and it sounds like the train is going over a long 3rd rail gap. I guess this has to do with the LIPA/Con ed switch.
Also the substation at Broad Channel hums louder when there's a train accelerating nearby.
[There really needs to be more frequent service to the Rockaways.]
Maybe you could let Transit know your travel plans in advance, so that trains can be diverted for you.
Better yet, sue all the people in the Rockaways who don't ride the train enough to justify better service for the one day you happen to be riding.
At Broad Channel, that shuttle is supposed to arrive right after the A train leaves if it is on time. Obviously your A train was very late, due to local all the way from 125 to Canal. That is also why you had to wait 10 minutes instead of the usual 1 or 2 at Broad Channel. Under on time operations, there should not be a 15 minute wait at Rockaway Blvd. between A trains of both branches. All southbound A trains would be late today, but not on paper since extra running time was provided due to a supplement schedule. Of course, the crews would lose recovery time in between trips as well, but that is the price of being a rookie working the A line on a weekend. Coming home, if you had to wait for 20 minutes at Broad Channel for a connection, that tells me that either your shuttle left Rock Park late for some reason and missed the connection or the A had a supplement schedule and the shuttle didn't but should of had one.
Yeah usually during the week the waits are shorter. Gotta love those G.O.'s!!
One of the many reasons weekend subway riding sucks. Well it aint all bad, I did get an R32 railfan window through the 63rd street connector!
i dunno but maybe you shouldve taken the 7 from flushing to queensboro plaza and taken the N to Dekalb,with a trip over the manhattan bridge because of another GO, and taken the 2 to flatbush and taken the Q35 to B116th.i think that wouldve been shorter.but too late now,still something to keep you pondering on for next time ^.^
Well next time I go to Rockaway I'm with LI bus routes N27 to Hempstead, N31/2 to Far Rockaway and the green lines Q22 ro Rockaway Park. Going through Manhattan is just too out of the way.
Besides I never been on the N31/32 or Q22, so I'd like 2 try it out.
Maybe with a stop-over in Cedarhurst, on the way back.
Could also take N21 to N25 to N31/2 as well.
Looking at my map it seems that all bus service from Far Rockaway to Jamaica is with Jamaica lines! Yikes.
I guess they have to take LIRR, or the N31/2 to Lynbrook and then the N4.
the ride on the N31/32 is really good,ive done twice,once on each bus.
I STILL have failed to take the Q22 across the Rockaway's but one of these days i will.but yeah that way is the shortest and quickest.
The Q22 is a pretty cool ride, though it goes thru some depressed areas of the Rockaways.
I took the 22 a couple times times, one of them being just yesterday (Tuesday, whenever) and I changed at Jacob Riis Park to the Q35 across the Gil Hodges into Brooklyn - THAT was a nice ride the because it was one of those older RTS's with a busted A/C and all the windows were open so we got wonderful sea breezes flowing through the bus!
I was also on the N33 once last year from Far Rockaway to Long Beach and returned to Manhattan on the LIRR. That was also an awesome ride - I opened the window to get a nice breeze in, but it was still April or so and just a tad short of being mild out, so the woman in front of me shut the window and said, "It ain't THAT warm out!" I was like, "Screw You!" (to myself, of course)
But nice nontheless.
I also picked up from my couple of trips down there that the Rockaways are generally kinda depressed. Except for maybe Neponsit and Belle Harbor, which have some really nice houses, the rest looks run down. And many parts of Jacob Riis Park look like they're in a bad state of neglect.
Except for some "undesirables" hanging around B116 and the Boardwalk, I enjoyed the Rockaways.
You mean the Strappies? :)
Didja see the jet-powered snowblower at Beach 116?
Yes I did see the snowblower, and I did take a picture of it on my last trip down there. I'm sure many others have pics of it also.
I also saw an R44 train front rollsign for the JFK special, it was in the Rock Pk yard, but I didn't have my camera with me today.
Wow, you went to Rockaway from Nassau County, via Manhattan? I mean, even without the Q53 available, there had to have been a better way than what you did (unless you were looking to combine a day of joyriding/railfanning with a day at the beach).
Assuming that you started on the N20 or N21, you could have changed at Bell Blvd. to a Q31 to Jamaica. There you could have caught a Q41 to Liberty/Cross Bay, and then a Q21 to Rockaway.
Or, you could have taken an N23 to Mineola and changed there for the short ride to on the N15 to Hempstead, where you could have caught an N31 or N32 to Far Rock, and then a Q22 across to Rock Park.
Neither of these routes involve subways, however. So, that may have been why you took such a circuitous route.
Of course, that would not explain why you chose Rockaway in the first place, as opposed to staying on the F and riding it all the way down to Coney Island.
Ferdinand Cesarano
How about the LIRR from Sea Cliff to Jamaica and change for the Far Rockaway Branch?
I haven't thought of that, if the schedule works that'd be the quickest way. I never been to LIRR Far Rockaway station, how far is it from the A train? Is there any remnants of the connection left?
No connections left. They built a shopping center where they were connected. Its a short walk though.
Just a quick question to Qtraindash7, do ever go the Sea Cliff beach on Shore Road? or Tappen Beach?.....I mean, if you are a resident of Sea Cliff, which I am just guessing if you are, you could use those beaches as opposed to traveling such long distances for the beach fun. But if you are just an avid rail fanner like the rest of us, then ignore this message.....
Well it's simple, those beaches by me are HOT. On the North shore it is very hot, no ocean breeze on the north shore like on the south shore. And I like the train ride. I just wish it'd run abit more frequently.
Going sucked because we had an R44 with no railfan window. But the R38 ride on the way back rocked. Even though someone had the window I could still see past them, plus the cab door was open (I didn't see the speedomter tho)
Back in the day with the old cars must've been real fun on the A.
Back in the old days it was a real **ride** and a feast for the senses. Those r1-10's were classic, very strongly framed, FAST and unmatchable. (especially the pre-wars)!
Actually they were more fun on the "E" (Which went to Rockaway during rush hours) than on the "A" as the "E" had R1-9's and the "A" only had R10's.
And R44's have just a little peephole into the cab, so there's never a chance of getting a view since it is always blocked.
At least the 46's and 68's have a bigger cab window so if it aint covered you still get a view.
IME, the peephole is often not covered, and in many cases there's no polarized coating, so the view isn't fuzzy.
This Saturday afternoon was bad for the No.6 Line. At about 3PM they had switch problems South of Pelham Term. The only way into Pelham was Uptown No.6 trains had to come in by M Track. So selected Uptown No.6 trains went Exp from Parkchester to Pelham Bay and others where sent Local to Westchester SQ and turned back for Southbound Service. Also some Uptown No.6 trains were turned back at 138 St- 3 Ave.
Then at about 3:20PM a No.6 had a 12-9 at E 149 Street. This suspended service from North of 125 Street to South of Parkchester.
A small cadre of Bera volunteers took a SEPTA field trip on Saturday July 13 and allowed me to join them as tour guide and referee. I met three of them on SEPTA train #1710, while the fourth had missed NJT train #7821 from NYP and joined us at 30th Street Station an hour after we got there. We rode the Frankford El to pass the hour. Unfortunately, the Market Street Subway-Elevated was busing between 30th Street and 69th Street, so we missed the most picturesque part of the line. After taking care of some business, we went to the SEPTA store and museum and photographed the PCC car there. Then a ride on Subway-Surface route 36 turned into a bustitution because of construction on Elmwood Ave, but the trolley motorman suggested we tour the yard at Elmwood Depot. Three of us waltzed into the yard while the other two feared arrest and waited outside. The three then got permission to peruse the yard, where we photographed orange PCC #2186, maroon Red Arrow PCC #2799, orange PCC #2194, green Chestnut Hill PCC #2168, green PCC #2160, red/white/and blue PCC #2181, and Peter Witt #8534, which had a cover protecting its deteriorating roof. This jaunt through Elmwood Yard made the whole trip worthwhile.
We were then allowed to ride a short non-revenue trip to Route 13, where it became a revenue trip. We went to 30th Street Station, where we then took the R6 to Norristown Transportation Center, and SEPTA Route 100 (Philadelphia and Western) hoping to see ”Almond Joys” at 69th Street Yard.
While at 69th Street, we photographed Route 101 Kawasaki double-ender #109 from West Chester Pike. Then the El bustitute took us back to 30th Street where we took the NJT Atlantic City line to Lindenwold, where I put the guests onto PATCO and bade them adieu.
Note: because of trackwork around 30th Street Station (SEPTA track), the R7 from Trenton did not go through the tunnel at Zoo Junction, but rather used a track on the surface to enter 30th Street Station on a (normally) outbound track.
Wow ... the usual suspects ... heh. Notably lacking is HeyPaul ... I take it the busses weren't running? And did SEPTA count the stock to make sure nobody made off with a PCC while Thurston created a diversion? :)
I neglected to mention that Doug didn't mention the Franklin Shuttle until 4:13 PM, a new record, I'm sure!
Thanks for sharing the story and pictures! I had hoped to join the group, but a prior committment on Sunday kept me here. Good thing, too; I unexpectedly had to work this morning!
Are you sure Doug didn't mention the Sh_ttle sooner, but you simply weren't listening? :) :)
Hahaha ... I take it there was a Franklin street nearby that reminded him. Shoulda invested in socks for those pesky street signs. :)
Hahaha ... I take it there was a Franklin street nearby that reminded him.
No...it was on the El bustitution ride from 69th to 30th Streets where the El structure came into view. It looked very decrepit. Doug said "It looks like the Franklin Shuttle before it was rehabbed."
Heh. So did anybody slap him? :)
Hey, might I be able to bum a ride from you for that Wayne Jct trip this Saturday? I'll supply the sodas if you like.
ChuChu,
Great photos. After you left us we had a very nice PATCO ride back. Then supper at Bookenders. Our final trip of the day was on the Orange line (we got the last Express of the week-end out of 8th & Market to Fern Rock). We also took a tourist walk along the waterfront before calling it a night.
We spent another day in the City of Brotherly Love, but guideless. Took a round trip on the #10 trolley to the North-West, then Market Street line to Frankford where we caught a #66 bus to Joe Frank's house. Spent a couple of hours in his basement, then at a local dinner before he was kind enough to drop us off at the SEPTA line to Trenton.
It was one hell of a week-end !!!!
Many thanks to our hosts ChuChu & Joe.
Mr t
Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, those in the photo are:
Lou from Brooklyn, Piort the Pole, The BMTman & myself.
Lines we took:
- From NYC to Philly: NJT & SEPTA
- In Philly: Market Street & Borad Street subways; #10, 11, & 36 trolleys; #R6 "Regional Rail" to Norristown (fromer route of the Bullets); #100 "light rail line"; NJT (push/pull) to Lindenwold; PATCO from Lindenwold ... plus a couple of buses.
Mr rt__:^)
Yes, I had a good time. Only disappoint was that the trolley lines going east #36 and #11 were bus-ticated (i.e., meaning that the lines were replaced with buses) due to trackwork. We'll have to do a repeat trip, but prehaps with a weekday involved so that all the lines would be in full operation.
BTW, Mr, T: that very good seafood restaurant is "Bookbinders" NOT "Bookenders".
Hey BMTman, go to bed, you have to work tommorow ... I only have Jury Duty < G >
Got to visit the Newark Subway today for the first time since 8/23/2001, and it was very strange to see Kinkisharyo LRV's waddling up and down this venerable route. The two new stations are nice (there's a dizzy curve at a grade crossing north of Branch Brook park), and the terminal's in the middle of nowhere. Oh, yes - there are PCCs sleeping in the yard- saw 2, 4, 9, 10 and 24. Time marches on - but the LRVs can't hold a candle to the PCC's.
wayne
and the terminal's in the middle of nowhere.
Should've exended it another three blocks and met up with the Watsessing Ave Montclair branch station.
Hartz Mountain is in the way.
Perhaps a trip in November ?
Simon
Swindon UK
thats how i feel bout that new rolling stock.......the 142 ...!!!
i agree with you a good old PCC is a joy to ride in !!!
When the Court Street Stub was made, was that a provision for another East River tunnel into Manhattan, or that was the final Terminal?
Right now the side tracks to the Court Street Stub only use is for access to the Transit Museum and movie shots (while the 8th Avenue express and local have to bottleneck to Canal St.)
The E currently terminates at Church and Fulton Streets, the N/R swicthes infront at Church Street.
Propsed idea: Extend the E onto the N/R, allowing the E access to the Montague St Tunnels. After Court Street Station (N/R) in Brooklyn, create another tunnel under Boreum Place to the Court Street Stub, reacessing the 8th Avenue Line
This would provide another route and stop the bottlenexk effect bet Hoyt and Canal, and thoughts on this?
Forgot to add the links to the maps:
Lower Manhattan
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/bigdowntown.gif
Brooklyn Heights
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smbklynhts.gif
Also just thought this up if the Manhattan Bridge Did close, for the idea about extending service onto the Franklin line to access the numbered and 8th avenue, may ease a lot of congestion
Where do you propose moving the Transit Museum to?
IIRC, there were two plans had actually been drawn up for the Court Street Stub. One plan would have been to tie the stub to the 8th Ave local tracks at WTC, paving the way for another route through the financial district. The other was said to have connected the IND with the BMT at the Whitehall St Station. None of this was actually acomplished, but I can only wonder how service would have been impacted today.
I had discovered this bit of information during the time I was a Tour Guide at the Museum. It's been a long time since I was there doing tours.
-Stef
wouldnt move the museum, Boreum Pl is a block ahead of the station; would switch in front. Cool, thanks for that bit of info; I don't see why they didnt link the two at Whitehall St. Station, and dont see how a link baack to 8th via the stub track would be difficult. could be a plan :)
I'm afraid the Transit Museum is located in the Court Street station.
If....
If another tunnel were to be built...
and if the Fulton Local wanted to use it...
The Transit Museum at Court Street would be untouched
The line going to it would bend to the North and follow Court Street.
(You do know that the Court Street station is NOT under Court street, right?)
and then connect to the (yet to be built) Pineapple Street Tunnel.
(You do know that the Court Street station is NOT under Court street, right?)
What streets does the station cross then?
The closed entrance I believe may be at Court. The current entrance is at Boerum and Schermerhorn.
Right now, both entrances are closed because the museum is closed for rebuilding. Under normal circumstances, the entrance to the museum is at Schermerhorn Street & Boerum Place. The Schermerhorn Street & Court Street entrance has a machine (not an elevator) that allows wheelchairs to enter and exit the museum.
David
What sort of machine?
I think it's a chair-lift type of thing. I've never tried it or seen it in use.
David
In addition, the in use main entrance to the Court Street Station (transit museum) is similar to a few stations in the system. The "in use" exit to the museum is at Boerum Place and Schermerhorn Street. The "closed" or "abandoned" exit (except for wheelchairs) is the namesake exit, "Court Street" and Schermerhorn..
This got me wondering, and in another thread it was mentioned that West 4th Street doesn't have an exit at West 4th Street anymore, it had been abandoned. Another one is 102 Street on the J line. It's 102 Street exit has been abandoned, and completely removed. That actually made them add "104" to the station name (102-104 Street) and I believe newer maps have even rescently even dropped the "102".
Are there any other stations who have lost their namesake exit, and are still called by that name, even though there is no longer an exit there anymore?
I believe that some stations on the Canarsie line have only "part-time" exits at their station's namesake exits, I guess that sort of counts also.
Elderts Lane, and Forest Parkway on the J.
One of my favorite topics.
No exit:
190th Street (A): exits around 192 and 193
155th Street (B/D): exit on 8th Avenue near 157
148th Street-Lenox Terminal: exit on 149 and 7th/Powell
West 4th Street: exits at 3, Waverly, 8
Eastern Parkway [name being phased out] (J/Z): exit via IND mezzanine only
Junius Street (1): exit at Powell (evidence of closed Junius exit remains)
Carroll Street (F)
Part-time exit only:
59th Street (4/5/6): full-time at 60
59th Street (A/B/C/D/1/2): all full-time exits are closer to 60, 58, or 57
51st Street (I think)
Bleecker Street (SB 6): full-time exit at Houston
East Broadway (I think)
3rd Avenue-138th Street: full-time exit at Alexander
179th Street (F): full-time exit at 180
36th Street (R/V) (I think)
Lorimer Street (L): full-time exit at Union via IND mezzanine
15th Street (F): there is an entrance from the street to the mezzanine at 15, but there are no full-time entry points except at the other end
More?
Thanks! I always was interested in that, ever since years ago I noticed that 102 Street on the J didn't have an current exit at the station (and that is even before they removed it).
I thought there were a few more on the Canarsie line. I remember Lorimer, as mentioned, but I thought I remembered another one, like Jefferson, but am not sure, so can't say.
Jefferson Street's west exit is just west of Jefferson Street; the east one's at George.
wayne
I think the George Street exit is the full time one, with the token booth, and the Jefferson exit is the one with the "egg-cutter" exits?
I'm sure there are many others. I just listed the ones I know. I've been through every station in the system but I haven't tried to exit from each one, certainly not late at night when all the part-time exits are closed! On the L, I've only passed through fare control at 11 stations (8th, 6th, Union Square, 3rd, Lorimer, Grand, Myrtle, BJ, Atlantic, Livonia, and RP). ("Only"? That's nearly half the stations on the line!)
the L, I've only passed through fare control at 11 stations
Only!? I used to use that line every day for three years, and I can only boast 8th, 6th, US, Myrtle, Wilson, Bway Junct, Atlantic, and Rock Pkwy. Although that's more than I thought, that's 8.
East Broadway's main exit is at Madison Street.
And Second Ave.'s main exit is on First Ave.
That could be because the projected Second System extension that would have continued east on Houston Street (with a possible stop at Avenue C/Pitt or Avenue D/Columbia) under the river along South 4th Street and Utica Avenue never materialized.
Probably when the Houston-Rutgers branch was built in 1936, 2nd Avenue was the main entrance to said station. But when it became apparent the Second System would never be built, the powers that were changed the main entrance to 1st Avenue to partially compensate for the cancellation of service further east along Houston.
Of course, had the 2nd Avenue subway been built, the 2nd Avenue end of the station might have remained the full-time entrance as well.
I use that station whenever I want a Katz's hot dog!!!
Here's a BIG one - Fordham Road on the Concourse line, the north (Fordham) exit's been closed up for some time, the only working exit is at 188th Street, that's a whole block south. And the mezzanine is a beautifully dim place, with lovely incandescent lights, but that's going to end soon; studs are in place for the flourescents.
wayne
Actually at some of the totally closed exit stations, such as Eastern Parkway, or 102 on the J, it's easy to solve the problem because they are elevated stations, and all they have to do is change the signs (to Broadway Junction or 104th), and the maps, and after a few years, the old name will be forgotten.
The underground stations are harder, as there is mosaic tilework involved. They would either have to cover up the tilework (which would be a shame) or redo the tilework (which would be costly, and also a shame to destroy the old mosaic name tablets). In addition, can you imagine them changing the name to a major station like West 4th!
You know, they DID that at 138th Street on the #4 and #5 lines, the metal signs cover up tablets that read "MOTT HAVEN". You'd think they would leave ONE of them (like they did up at 149-Concourse, AKA Mott Avenue) exposed, but no, they covered them up. Thankfully, they left the "MH" icons alone!
I'm for renaming that station "138th Street-Mott Haven". Then they could actually expose a couple of tablets and it would be sort of correct.
As far as altering tablets, the way they treat the tablets these days, detailing and recreating them down to the tiniest tile chip, it wouldn't be such a terrible thing to do, given the right hands to work on it. Some of the recreated/restored tablets are simply beautiful.
wayne
I'm for renaming that station "138th Street-Mott Haven". Then they could actually expose a couple of tablets and it would be sort of correct
Yeah, that station also got me interested a while back in this subject! I remember riding through there and seeing the little "MH's" in the band, and thought that was neat. I agree though, a lot of the "repro" mosaics are quite nice where they have done that. I would be for exposing every other "Mott Haven", and removing the other ones and replacing it with 138th Street. it's better than having them all covered up.
There are a lot of stations that have been COMPLETELY renamed such as Mott Haven, and Mott Street. Actually the Canal Street Bridge station was originally called "Broadway". I know for a fact that the mosaic tablets must say "Broadway" under two layers of renovation tiles (both the 60's tile and current renovation tile). When they were rehabbing the station, a portion of the refrigerator was removed, and I saw the little "B's" in the original mosaic band along the ceiling. It wasn't for long though, and it wasn't a portion of the wall where any of the name tablets were exposed. I've never seen a photo of that station with the original tiles. They are under there though and they say "Broadway".
When they were rehabbing the station, a portion of the refrigerator was removed, and I saw the little "B's" in the original mosaic band along the ceiling.
Of course I meant "refrigerator TILE".
Yes they are, and they have the same pattern as the stations above, such as Prince Street.
I take it you've seen the expert restorations going on at Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th Streets. Top-notch job, worthy of the approval of Mr.Vickers himself.
wayne
Yes, I'm so glad they are doing that along Broadway. Broadway's mosaics are some of the nicest in the system! It's a shame that they were covered for so long. I used to love seeing the 28th Street name tablet at the closed off end of the station when I used to use that line every day. I always hoped they would restore the old tiles. I would always like seeing the mosaics in the token areas of those stations also, where they were never covered. Hopefully they will one day restore the walls on 4th Ave in Brooklyn also, as those must be very similar to the Broadway line's.
the walls on 4th Ave in Brooklyn also, as those must be very similar to the Broadway line's.
They are and they aren't. The 4th Avenue local stops (1913) have a little diamond tracer running along the top of the frieze, along with a different mezzanine pattern (has the little squares, like Chambers Street BMT mezzanine), the icons have slightly different borders and there is more use of dulled, earthen colors. Bits of these can be seen in exitways and above token booths and in some stations' mezzanines.
Along Broadway, it reverts to the 1916-1918 (Arts and Crafts) school, with brighter colors used as accents. There are the little diamond inserts between the icons, similar to the Lexington Local above Grand Central, also from this period.
They are adding a lower border (wasn't there originally) to the Broadway Local stations, in colors complementary to the main frieze and tablets.
wayne
Very interesting. Does anyone know of any photos online of any of the 4th Ave stations walls from before they were covered? Are there any plans to take the 60's tile down like they did on Broadway?
Thos metal signs there are just plain ugly..
They should just take them down
I agree, but the name on the tiles is not the name of the station anymore, that's why they are covered. They should have alternated the new name with the old name so they could have left every other mosaic exposed.
I agree. I think it's better to incorporate the old name than cover it up in such a manner. At least they didn't cover up the MH .Although for years I didn't know what stood for.
I thought it was for a hospital at first.
There is an entrance to the C at 155th & Saint Nick. At least I think I saw one riding past on the BX6.
Recently I drove the entire lengths of Utica Avenue and Malcom X Boulevard. While stopped for the light at Fulton Street, I could not see any subway entrance at all. Is it further west by Stuyvesant Avenue?
The main entrance for Fort Hamilton Parkway on the F puts you at Prospect Avenue between Greenwood and Reeve. The part-time entrance puts you at the underpass where southbound Ocean Parkway swings west to south, crossing over the Prospect Expressway. Fort Hamilton Parkway, at least southbound, does begin at that point, but it's not really signed until a block west at East 5th Street. Of course, these conditions didn't exist until the expressway was built around 1961. Before that, I'm told it was all surface streets in that area.
Before the Citicorp tower came up in LIC, the full-time entrance to 23rd/Ely was on 44th Drive just east of 23rd Street. That stairway was obliterated by the construction, and there is now a weekday-only entrance within the building midway in the passageway between the 23rd/Ely and Court Square stations. The part-time entrance at 21st Street and 44th Drive has since become a full-time entrance.
170th-Concourse: Full-time entrance at 171st; exit-only at 170th. Could be that 170th passes under the Concourse and above the subway might have something to do with that. Many crosstown streets have this setup, and buses used to stop in the tunnel in front of the subway entrance. I can remember in the mid-seventies when Kingsbridge Road still had this arrangement. Security concerns may have played a part in this being phased out, because every crosstown bus I've been on in recent years avoids the tunnels and crosses the Concourse at grade.
205th's main exit empties onto Bainbridge and 206th. There's another exit at 205th and Perry (not sure if full or part-time), a quiet corner surrounded by apartment buildings. The Bainbridge/206 exit has many stores and bus stops, just what you'd expect at a subway terminal. Somewhat similar is an extra full-time exit from 15th/Prospect that empties onto Windsor and Howard, a T-intersection in the middle of a residential block.
Chambers/Church offers a weekday-only exit to that intersection. The full-time exits are several blocks south on Church, at Murray, Park Place and Barclay.
All of these names stayed probably because its near the area everyones knows:
Tell someone Stuyvesant Avenue Station and they may cringe, but everyone knows Utica Avenue, can find it on the map, or have a general idea of where it is
While areas change over time, unless there is a big change, people still are use to saying certain name/streets, so they just left it.
Only reason I could think of, just a thought
All of these names stayed probably because its near the area everyones knows:
Tell someone Stuyvesant Avenue Station and they may cringe, but everyone knows Utica Avenue, can find it on the map, or have a general idea of where it is
While areas change over time, unless there is a big change, people still are use to saying certain name/streets, so they just left it.
Only reason I could think of, just a thought
There is an entrance to the C at 155th & Saint Nick. At least I think I saw one riding past on the BX6.
I know. I used it last week. I said there was no entrance to the B/D on 155th -- I walked past where it would be on my way to the C. (I was on the viaduct but I looked down to the lower level. Nothing there.)
The main entrance for Fort Hamilton Parkway on the F puts you at Prospect Avenue between Greenwood and Reeve. The part-time entrance puts you at the underpass where southbound Ocean Parkway swings west to south, crossing over the Prospect Expressway. Fort Hamilton Parkway, at least southbound, does begin at that point, but it's not really signed until a block west at East 5th Street. Of course, these conditions didn't exist until the expressway was built around 1961. Before that, I'm told it was all surface streets in that area.
That's quite an unusual station, located underneath the expressway. I wonder if it gets much use.
Oops, you're right. I reflexively thought of pre-'97 service patterns when the B went to Washington Heights and stopped at 155/Saint Nick. If you're looking for the 155/8 Avenue stop, it's buried in the Polo Grounds projects off Frederick Douglass Boulevard (nee 8th Avenue) about one block north of 8th Avenue. It was situated there to be right at the entrance of the New York Giants' home stadium.
The only reason I know this is that I saw it personally back in December '99 on the Subtalk Polo Grounds tour.
Actually, the south entrance to Fort Ham station isn't under the expressway. It's right alongside the Prospect underneath the Fort Hamilton Parkway overpass.
Was there ever a 155th Street exit at the 155th Street station?
The FHP entrance isn't under the expressway but the station itself is -- or at least it sounds that way.
Howard,
There are staircase at Utica and Fulton. They are just set back on Fulton. On the North side its just past the parking lot for the stores about 60' W/O Reid (Malcolm X) and about 40' N/O Fulton. On the South side its on Fulton about 50' W/O Utica by the path that leads to the Boys And Girls Schoolyard. There is staircases just west of Stuyvesant by the entrance to Fulton Park. (A great place to position a radio car for girlwatching during the PM rush hour when I worked there!)
True, none of these staircases are exactly AT the corner but they're close enough and there are no streets by them. (They are the closest streets)
The reason why the station staircases at Utica and Fulton are set back from the actual intersections are due to the sweeping curves that were constructed on both Utica and Reid (Malcom X Blvd) Avenues in order to connect the two thoroughfares.
Originally, both Utica and Reid Avenues ended at Fulton Street. Traffic was forced to turn onto Fulton then turn again onto either Utica or Reid to continue north or south. This situation still exists at New York/Marcy Avenues, Kingston/Throop Avenues and at Sumner(now Marcus Garvey Blvd)/Albany Avenues. The station entrances were properly located at the ORIGINAL intersection of UA and Fulton. When the Utica and Reid were connected by the curves, the station entrances, of course, remained where they are. Hence, its current unusual location.
Mark
At Columbus Circle, 59th St. (in name) doesn't intersect there.
Probably at one time it did. Central Park South does intesect there.
Is or was central Park South referred to as 59 th St. Although it line up with 59th St., I've heard it referred to as 59th St.
Also, was there ever an entrance at W 4 St?
One station I use is Gates Avenue on the Bway El. The only staircases are at Quincy Street. I don't think there ever was an exit at Gates. The closed mezzanine at the other end is at a triple intersection of Monroe Street, Bway, and Howard Avenue.
Although a few people mentioned Eastern Pkway I have to add that that is the perfect example of the topic because the only entrance to the station on Van Sinderin is no way near Eastern Pkway!!
Honorable mention: Van Siclen on the "F". There is no Van Siclen anywhere near there!! (at least presently)
At least at platform level, the Eastern Parkway staircases are still there; they're just not open to the public.
The "Van Siclen" name was removed from the F station a few years ago. It's now just Neptune Avenue. It's not entirely clear if Van Siclen referred to a street or to something else -- notice the name wasn't Van Siclen Street or Van Siclen Avenue or anything like that, just plain old Van Siclen. That may be normal in Chicago but it isn't in New York.
Even the name Neptune makes it fit the subject as the staircases are about a block north of Neptune by the Warbasse Co-Ops.
Maybe Van Siclen used to be the name of the shopping plaza near-by. Or
even the name of the community.
That could be true. On a similar note, the LIRR had a station under the intersection of Fresh Pond Road and Metropolitan Ave called "Fresh Pond" It wasn't named for the street, it was named that because that area used to be called "Fresh Pond". Of course it was absorbed into Ridgewood and Maspeth, but that name remained. The same may be true for Van Siclen. BTW, the street that Brooklyn has is spelled Van Sicklen, not Van Siclen, so it must be two different origins.
Wasn't Van Sicklen the name of a hotel that was in that area?
There IS a Van Sicklen Street, up on the other side of the Belt Parkway.
wayne
I think you may be right about Van Siclen being a hotel. I vaguely remember hearing something like that before.
Actually Van Sicklen Street runs parallel to the west of McDonald Avenue between 86th Street and Kings Highway. It currently ends at Coney Island Yard, but I guess it is possible that it ran all the down and ended at Neptune Avenue near the station.
Mark
It probably didn't.
The street ends on 86th, not on Avenue X which is the actual northern boundary of the Coney Island Yard.
This 1913 Brooklyn Eagle Map shows a street grid where the yard would later be. Van Sicklen still ends at 86th Street.
This 1873 Gravesend Town Map shows no part of Van Sicklen street existing, except for where it is the western boundary of Gravesend village. It does however show a number of houses, all belonging to a member of the Van Sicklen family, all in the area along Shell Road immediately south of the Coney Island Creek. It also shows a building labeled "Hotel." Perhaps the Van Sicklen Hotel.
Does anybody know where the Coney Island House, the first hotel on Coney Island was located specifically?
The station was also called Van Sicklen. My mistake.
Ok, as long as you brought up an LIRR station I have to say I've been searching all through Garden City & Hempstead for a Country Life Press Street or Avenue.
Where is CLP anyway (in terms of streets)?
Coutry Life Press I think was a newspaper that was near the station. I don't remember.
Coutry Life Press I think a newspaper that was near the station. I don't remember.
Actually, the station was named after the nearby Doubleday Publishing facility, which as far as I know printed books and magazines. I believe the printing's now done elsewhere, but the company's offices remain.
Yes, you are right, that is where the station got it's name. I knew it had to do with something like that, I just couldn't remember what kind of printing was done there.
There are not too many stations that are named for businesses, Country Life Press and Times Square being the only two I can think of. Of course, I guess, Times Square is really named for the "square" not really for the Times, however, I believe Times Square started being called Times Square around the time when the subway came through.
There are not too many stations that are named for businesses, Country Life Press and Times Square being the only two I can think of. Of course, I guess, Times Square is really named for the "square" not really for the Times, however, I believe Times Square started being called Times Square around the time when the subway came through.
Correct about the timing, although I don't believe there was any connection between the renaming and the coming of the subway.
I suppose you could say that Chambers Street-WTC on the E is, er, was named for the World Trade Center.
Uhh yeah, that's an important one I totally overlooked!
Also Herald Square was named for the New York Herald. That's why the Times had Longacre Square renamed in its honor.
Yes you are right. The station name didn't catch on quite like Times Square did though.
Was Herald Square Herald Square's original name?
Yes
In Scotland, on the Scotrail suburban branch from Glasgow Central to Wemyss Bay, there is a station called IBM! It is inside the IBM plant. The timetable says that only IBM employees or authorised visitors to the plant can get on or off trains there. I've never been there, but I assume IDs are checked at the ticket barrier, and if you have got off a train and are not permitted into the plant, you have to wait for another train to leave again.
Fytton.
"In Scotland, on the Scotrail suburban branch from Glasgow Central to Wemyss Bay, there is a station called IBM!"
On Metra in Chicago, the station on the Milwaukee West line next to the M&M/Mars factory is named Mars. THAT gets a double-take from some passengers when "Next stop ... Mars" is announced. :^) Unlike that IBM station, though, it's open to the public; it generally has more ridership from the surrounding neighborhood than the factory AFAIK.
Sort of like Hillside Facility.
Country Life Press station is along East St.James' Street, with entrances at Chestnut, Elm and Filbert Streets. It is a single track and the platform is on the east side of this track.
The nearest large intersection is 6th and Franklin.
wayne
What's the town it's in? I guess it should be named for a town if it's LIRR. ALthough it may overlap with other stations. For example Merillon Ave and Nassau Blvd stations are both in Garden City, but there is also a station for Garden City so they had to use the road names for the station names of the other two.
I'm pretty sure its in Garden City although it might be Hempstead as it's very close to the border. I remember years ago I used to use that station and parked in a parking lot off Stewart Av that had a RR crossing from the rarely used Central Branch right in the middle of the lot. The lot was just E/O where the Hempstead Line branches off the Central Branch. The interesting thing about that crossing is that it has crossing gates, something the rest of the Central Branch doesn't have. (no gates at Clinton, Washington, Nassau Community College, etc.
Country Life Press is in Garden City, only a couple of blocks from the Garden City station. Sometimes I wonder why they keep CLP open when it's so close to GC. But I once rode an AM peak train in from Hempstead, and there was a sizable number of people waiting at CLP. They must come from the eastern reaches of Garden City towards the mall.
Stewart Manor station is actually in Garden City, not the village for which it's named. Stew Manor is only about six blocks from east to west, and the ROW actually runs completely through it before it arrives at its station. On the main line, the eastern extremity of New Hyde Park station is right on the Garden City border- as you drive south on NHP Road across the tracks, you enter GC.
At Merillon Avenue, the Main Line ROW forms the town line between North Hempstead and Hempstead. The Hempstead side is the village of Garden City; the North Hempstead side is the hamlet of Garden City Park. Merillon is a relatively minor side street, but the station was probably so named because there already was a Nassau Boulevard station on the Hempstead branch (originally a private railroad built by Stewart, whose first name I forget, the man who laid out Garden City). To name the station Garden City Park with a Garden City station on the Hempstead branch would've led to more confusion.
As had been mentioned many time, the OB's Sea Cliff station is in the city of Glen Cove, and the ROW doesn't pass through Sea Cliff at all.
originally a private railroad built by Stewart, whose first name I forget, the man who laid out Garden City
Alexander T. Stewart.
Here are a few good ones as well. 21 Street(Van Alst), never heard
of Van Alst Street or Avenue. 23 Street-Ely Ave, I haven't found Ely
Avenue yet. Van Wyck Blvd-Briarwood, Van Wyck Blvd is not found on a
Queens street map. Cypress Hills should have the name of a street, not
the neighborhood. Jay Street-Boro Hall should be renamed Jay Street-
Fulton Mall or Metro Tech. Borough Hall on 1,2,4,5 lines should be renamed either Court Square(Brooklyn), or Cadman Plaza, or even Court
Street, same on the M,N,R lines. 75 Ave-Puritan, where's Puritan.
And the entire East New York complex should just be called Broadway
Junction. Everyone else but the TA calls it that.Grand Ave-Newton,
Newton what? And to finish it off-22 Ave-Bay Parkway on the F. I only
see Bay Pkwy, but maybe that changed.
You are right, they are outdated names, but In the case of Van Alst, that was the original Queens name for 21st, and Ely was the name for 23rd, similar to Bliss, Lowery, etc on the 7. Most Queens streets had real names like Brooklyn until the early part of the century when they were changed to numbers. The Ely, etc are remnants of that. Van Wyck Blvd predated or became the Van Wyck Expressway.
Newtown is the old Queens township name for that area. Why it's in the station name....don't know why they included it.
The name Elmhurst had not yet supplanted Newtown as the name for the neighborhood.
23 Street-Ely Ave, I haven't found Ely Avenue yet.
It may well be that 23rd St IS Ely Avenue. Likewise, 21st and Van Alst, 75th and Puritan etc... If so, I rather prefer the name Ely Avenue...
Van Wyck Blvd-Briarwood, Van Wyck Blvd is not found on a
Queens street map.
Pedant. If you're really THAT bothered, send NYCT a nice big cheque to cover changing all the signs from Boulevard to Expressway.
Grand Ave-Newton, Newton what?
I believe Newton is a neighborhood.
If so, I rather prefer the name Ely Avenue...
That is the case. They are one in the same. It's a shame that Queens lost all of it's street names to numbers. I hate the fact that they did that. Why they did it, I have no idea, as Brooklyn doesn't seem to have any problem with their streets not being numbered. I think it is much more interesting to have names rather than numbers.
It's a shame that Queens lost all of it's street names to numbers.
Is there somewhere online I can find a complete list of the old street names in Queens?
I hate the fact that they did that. Why they did it, I have no idea, as Brooklyn doesn't seem to have any problem with their streets not being numbered. I think it is much more interesting to have names rather than numbers.
I wholly agree with your views on this issue, GP38! Perhaps as a mark of disrespect to the d***head who replaced all the lovely names with numbers, we should unilaterally call the streets by their real names. I know American Pig already does this with a certain Boulevard in Richmond County.
Of course, I appreciate the obvious arguments for street numbering (stranger arriving in a town and looking for, say, 10th St will find it between 9th and 11th Sts etc...). This however, doesn't quite work in Queens. There are some quite odd juxtapositions (like going along Ditmars Boulevard, the streets suddenly jump about 20 numbers at 50th St, the large number of "Roads" and "Places", some bizarrely angled streets, and of course the center of Flushing).
Of course, I appreciate the obvious arguments for street numbering (stranger arriving in a town and looking for, say, 10th St will find it between 9th and 11th Sts etc...). This however, doesn't quite work in Queens. There are some quite odd juxtapositions (like going along Ditmars Boulevard, the streets suddenly jump about 20 numbers at 50th St, the large number of "Roads" and "Places", some bizarrely angled streets, and of course the center of Flushing).
Exactly. The numbered streets work well in Manhattan where it is a perfect grid system. Actually, I like it in Manhattan, first of all because they didn't replace historic names, and second because the numbered streets sort of took on a life of their own. What would Manhattan be without 5th ave, or 42 Street, or 125th Street (ironically lost it's number to a name, but that's another topic). (It's funny, but would 42nd Street still have the same feel if it was called 44th Street or Maple Street? A rose by any other name is still a rose......)
Anyway, in Queens the numbering doesn't make sense a lot of times, for the reasons you mentioned, and alot of times there is a let's say a 40th Drive that is in one place, then disapears, and comes back 30 blocks away! It is no more easier to find the numbered streets in Queens a lot of the times, than it is to find the named streets in Brooklyn. Thank goodness Brooklyn opted to keep it's streets.
Manhattan where it is a perfect grid system
At least as near as damn it. There's the odd stupid bit like the intersection of W125th and W129th Sts and the whole W12th St being four blocks from Little W12th St, but that's about as bad as it gets.
Actually, I like it in Manhattan
So do I! What sort of idiot is going to refer to the intersection of Adam Clayton Powell and Doctor Martin Luther King "Junior Boulevards" (I mean is that a small boulevard or just a fake one? Oh yeah, and since when have boulevards been eligible for Postgraduate Degrees?). The "new" names have an alarming tendency to (1) be pretentious, (2) be too long and (3) stick out like a sore thumb (spot the odd one out: Grand Av, Classon Av, Franklin Av, Bedford Av, Nostrand Av, Marcy Av, Tompkins Av, Throop Av, Marcus Garvey Boulevard - I'm not saying that Mr Garvey was a bad bloke - I don't know a thing about him, so I presume he deserved an Avenue - but these naming conventions are absurd!). One final question about a silly name - is it Malcolm "Eks" Blvd or Malcolm the Tenth Blvd (and of which obscure principality was he the ruler and what did he have to do with Brooklyn?)?
42nd Street still have the same feel if it was called 44th Street or Maple Street?
Maple St would be far too tasteful for a modern renaming - it'd have to be "Professor Doctor Sir John Q. Clayton Public the Tenth-and-a-Half Junior Boulevard".
and alot of times there is a let's say a 40th Drive that is in one place, then disapears, and comes back 30 blocks away! It is no more easier to find the numbered streets in Queens a lot of the times, than it is to find the named streets in Brooklyn. Thank goodness Brooklyn opted to keep it's streets.
Amen to that! In either case you need a good map or to know Brooklyn and Queens pretty damn well!
There is one named street which does throw me a bit "Central Avenue" - there are two completely different ones just off Myrtle Avenue either side of the Brooklyn-Queens border.
Well, the whole grid system was thought up before the street were even made (from 1804, everything north of Houston would be created or sold in these grids, can't explain or account for Broadway tho and the story behind that diagonal)
As for the name "Malcolm X" basically in the Black Muslim group he joined; part of a belief (the last name was not his original) X meant he was the 10th person named Malcolm in the church.
Most of the long names you see are dedications to people who have had great effects in this city or country; can still call it 7th Avenue
Staten Island's roadway is just as twisty as Queens, plus they have hills and curves added to it all, but they still keep the names on the street; try taking a taxi in SI and telling em to go to where ever, even the taxi driver has to dig through a map :-|
(from 1804, everything north of Houston would be created or sold in these grids, can't explain or account for Broadway tho and the story behind that diagonal)
So how did Broadway end up being left there?
Most of the long names you see are dedications to people who have had great effects in this city or country
I was taking the P out of the modern naming conventions rather than the individuals. I think Martin Luther King was a great man and certainly did a hell of a lot for his country, but - come on - why Doctor Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard? It would be a lot more natural to use a shorter name - e.g. "King St" - same guy, but a lot more use as a street name. And what's the fixation with renaming everything to "Boulevard" anyway?
can still call it 7th Avenue
I know. But it doesn't show much respect to these great guys to go slapping their full names on the maps, so that everyone ignores them. You'd have more of a chance getting people to use the name if only the Surname plus St or Av were used.
try taking a taxi in SI and telling em to go to where ever, even the taxi driver has to dig through a map
Obviously don't have a hard enough exam to be a taxi driver on Staten Island. You should see what you have to know to be a London cabbie!
As for the name "Malcolm X" basically in the Black Muslim group he joined; part of a belief (the last name was not his original) X meant he was the 10th person named Malcolm in the church.
What did he do to merit having Reid Avenue renamed after him? - he sounds a bit of a religious nutcase to me.
>>> So how did Broadway end up being left there? <<<
Broadway was the post road out of New York when Canal Street was the northen end of the City. It predated the division of the area into grids.
>>> You'd have more of a chance getting people to use the name if only the Surname plus St or Av were used <<<
That is what is done in conversation, but the full name lets one know who the street was named after. A "King" street could be named after George III, or B.B. King for all we know. And a street named after Malcolm X, called "X" street wold leave those like you who are ignorant of recent American history completely unaware of whom the street was named after. Using the full name gets people to ask who was that person the street was named after?
Tom
A "King" street could be named after George III
NOOOOOOOOOO never!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Using the full name gets people to ask who was that person the street was named after?
You mean people ignorant of music don't ask about Steinway Street? Would they be more likely to ask if were called Heinrich E. Steinway Boulevard?
Broadway was the post road out of New York when Canal Street was the northen end of the City.
Presumably that is why 4th Av is at such an odd angle too. What's going on with W125th St - is that ancient too?
There must have been something at West 125 that made the street go that way. It's strange how these things may happen. I heard there is some bend in a street in Lower manhattan that is there because Peter Stuyvesant didn't want his pear tree cut down or something.
There must have been something at West 125 that made the street go that way.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=357309
I heard there is some bend in a street in Lower manhattan that is there because Peter Stuyvesant didn't want his pear tree cut down or something.
Urban legend, although the legend doesn't usually refer to Peter Stuyvesant as the subject since he didn't own property along Broadway immediately south of Union Square.
The bend along Broadway south of Union Square was so built in order to create a union of the Bowery and Broadway, it has nothing to do with trees and/or landowners refusing to sell land.
"There must have been something at West 125 that made the street go that way."
There is a very steep hill if you run it straight. Note that no street north of 110th (Cathedral Pkwy) goes through all the way west to Riverside Drive. 125th is a major through street, so presumably the city planners decided it was more important for it to go all the way through than to have it be completely striaght.
As I've already mentioned, and posted a link in the previous response, 125th Street DID travel straight across to Riverside Drive. That was renamed LaSalle Street, 125th Street was rerouted onto the existing Manhattan Street.
To the Riverside Drive service road, that is. The main road is well on its way to becoming a viaduct by LaSalle.
Exactly. LaSalle St does not go all the way through to the west side of Manhattan. According to my Hagstrom's (which may be wrong), it doesn't even go through to the service road but terminates on Claremont Ave. Also according to my Hagstrom's the northbound and southbound portions of Riverside Dr are still firmly on land at that point.
For LaSalle to go through to the Henry Hudson, it would have to go up a very steep hill and down a very steep hill. 125th St can go through to the Henry Hudson without vlimbing that hill.
No, your Hagstrom is right -- I was thinking of Tiemann, one block north.
The main Riverside Drive roadways are on land until just south of 125th, but the ground to their immediate west drops fast. Here's a southbound view from underneath the viaduct at St. Clair, the westward extension of 129th after it crosses 125th (so we're just south of 125th), with the service road snaking up the hill:
Excellent picture. And the point is that the through street (125th) was made to curve north so that it didn't have to climb that hill and drop down the other side.
That has nothing to do with it. Manhattan Street led to the ferry to New Jersey. It made more sense to reroute 125th Street to lead to the ferry pier than it did to bring the ferry to a 125th that was too high for it.
Had there been no ferry, it really wouldn't have mattered much, 125th Street would have went straight across and ended on Claremont, or Riverside.
That something is called Manhattan Valley. It's the same something that forces the 1 onto a viaduct for one station even though it's running slightly downhill (northbound) all the while.
Riverside Drive is on an equally impressive viaduct across Manhattan Valley.
Old Tom Wrote:
> Using the full name gets people to ask who was that
> person the street was named after?
You're definitely right about that. If we had a Harding Expy, I would have assumed it was named after former president Warren G. Harding, rather than an obscure banker and train company director. This one was a doozy to track down, too!
http://home.att.net/~berliner-ultrasonics/limpkwy2.html#HH
That is what is done in conversation, but the full name lets one know who the street was named after. A "King" street could be named after George III, or B.B. King for all we know. And a street named after Malcolm X, called "X" street wold leave those like you who are ignorant of recent American history completely unaware of whom the street was named after. Using the full name gets people to ask who was that person the street was named after?
Trivia question: Who is the namesake of Lincoln Square/Lincoln Center? Van Wyck Expressway?
Are you serious about the first question, or is it a joke?
Van Wyck was either named for Robert Van Wyck, first mayor of Greater New York, or some local Van Wyck landowner (the latter more likely).
That is what is done in conversation, but the full name lets one know who the street was named after
This may be the intent but it is a recent phenomenon. I feel that streets should have the shortest names possible for addressing purposes - I'll be damned if I start writing these entire names when I address envelopes.
I absolutely refused to use "Avenue of the Americas" for example - no matter what I addressed my envelopes to "Sixth Ave" or even better "6th Av"
As for the long names - well i use initials for everything except the last name and/or I abbreviate - heck my attitude is if they want to give the street that name - then let the postal workers figure out where the mail goes.
>>> heck my attitude is if they want to give the street that name - then let the postal workers figure out where the mail goes. <<<
Your abbreviations won't bother anyone at the post office as long as you include a correct ZIP.
Tom
you should do some reading on Malcolm-before you pass such bias judgements-on a man who probly did more in his short life then we will ever do for civil rights[for everybody]
"can't explain or account for Broadway tho and the story behind that diagonal"
Broadway was originally Bloomingdale Road, the main road to the north. Supposed even earlier it was the main Indian footpath to the north. Tt must have been so well established by 1804 that it would have been unacceptable to obliterate it.
Bloomingdale Road was saved largely because of a blunder on the part of the people who layed out the street grid.
Avenues were to be closer together near the rivers than in the middle of the island because that's where it was though the populations would be. As it turned out, the opposite was true. Bloomingdale Road was maintained as an extension of Broadway (which was to end on 23rd between 3rd and 4th) and Lexington and Madison Avenues were added to the grid. There was also to be another inter-avenue between 5th and 6th.
What was 5½th Av going to be called?
Cool, Thanks for the info
from 1804, everything north of Houston would be created or sold in these grids, can't explain or account for Broadway tho and the story behind that diagonal)
I believe Broadway is an old Indian path.
As for the name "Malcolm X" basically in the Black Muslim group he joined; part of a belief (the last name was not his original) X meant he was the 10th person named Malcolm in the church.
It meant no such thing. Malcolm X's original name was Malcolm Little, he dropped it because it was his slave name and thus replaced it with X, the universal symbol for something absent.
As head of the Nation of Islam, he had a very racist agenda, until his pilgrimage to Mecca, at which time he decided to be for peace. He also changed his name at that time to El Hajj Malik Di Shabazz (his wife's last name was Shabazz).
>>> As head of the Nation of Islam, he had a very racist agenda, <<<
Malcolm was never the head of the Nation of Islam. He was a national spokesman for the organization, and a gifted orator. He became disillusioned with Elijah Mohammad, the leader of the Nation of Islam, and his haj to Mecca convinced him that true Islam was not what the Nation of Islam was preaching.. It is generally believed that his vocal disillusionment with the Nation of Islam, and the fact that his personal charisma was causing other members of the Nation of Islam to question it and its's leader Elijah Muhammad, led to his assassination.
Malcolm had been the leader of Mosque #7 in Harlem. When he was expelled, that mosque was turned over to Louis X who he had recruited in 1955. Louis X is now known as Louis Farrakhan.
Tom
The point is the same, he dropped his last name because it was his slave name. As for the X, thought that was the point of the last name, if you were the third Malcolm, would have been Malcolm 3. Anyway, thank you for the correction
Exactly. You need a map in Queens OR Brooklyn if you are looking for a street. And it doesn't matter if it's a numbered street or a named street. Either way you have to look in the box, and the coordinates, due to the screwey way the Queens number system is layed out.
Yeah, but at least in Queens, if you are looking for a certain address number you know about where it is by the digits before the dash. That is the cross street.
That's the only thing I'll give the numbered system. It still would have been nice if they left the old names also, sort of like let's say "23rd St-Ely Ave" on the street signs.
They could have went the Chicago route and kept the name, while giving it an implied number.
The signs would say:
Ely Avenue
2300 East
Interesting that you bring up implied numbers. I remember when stations along the Jerome el had small black-on-white signs on the light poles on exposed sections of the platform. If the station was numbered- 161, 167, 170, 176, 183- that was the numeral that was on these little signs. But at named stations, the numeral equivelant appeared, probably to keep people oriented:
Mount Eden= 173
Burnside= 180
Fordham= 188
Kingsbridge= 194
Bedford Park= 200
I don't remember if Mosholu Parkway had a numerical equivelant.
The only time I rode the 3rd Avenue el, I noticed the signs at Claremont Parkway had a subtext in parenthesis under that name: (Between 171st & 172nd Streets). Tremont Avenue and Fordham Road had subtexts without parenthesis of 177th and 190th Streets respectively.
I remember those little signs, as some were still there about 10 years ago. The Pelham line had them also, but I don't know if they were numbers. Stations like Zerega had them, but I think the name was just cut short on the little signs.
At least as near as damn it. There's the odd stupid bit like the intersection of W125th and W129th Sts
The diagonal part of 125th Street was once Manhattan Street and 126th was Lawrence Street. The current LaSalle Street was 125th Street.
and the whole W12th St being four blocks from Little W12th St, but that's about as bad as it gets.
You forgot to mention how West 4th Street intersects with West 10th, West 11th, West 12th and West 13th.
Little West 12th Street is the true path of 12th Street. All of the numbered streets in the Village grid had names at one time.
West 4th was Asylum Street
West 10th Street was Amos Street
West 11th was Hammond Street
West 12th was Troy Street
and West 3rd, part of the regular grid, was called Amity Street.
The big issue with the most of the roadways in Queens (except for main ones) is it is so cut up/choppy.
Its hard enough making ur way around Queens with the number system, least you live there and are used to it. Could u imagine if all of those little streets still had names.
Brooklyn sorta survives because its big patches of grids; everything is basically north-south or east-west, with some exceptions
-west of the F line and north of Broadway, roads for the most part are southwest-northeast;
-canarsie Northwest-southeast
The big issue with the most of the roadways in Queens (except for main ones) is it is so cut up/choppy.
I agree. A real grid, like Manhattan is pretty close to, is a LOT better.
Its hard enough making ur way around Queens with the number system, least you live there and are used to it. Could u imagine if all of those little streets still had names.
I'd say the number system makes it worse. There should at least have been a compromise by which streets retained both a name and a number. It is easier to remember in strange patterns what named streets do rather than numbered. If you for instance look at the very complex city of Birmingham in the UK, you will find roads in the East of the City called 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Avenues. Even those don't quite work (1st and 2nd are no through roads, 3rd becomes Pretoria Rd after a block, 4th becomes Botha Rd after a block, and 5th becomes Colonial Rd after, quelle surprise, a block); there is an even worse set of 1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th Avenues in the South of the City, where 4th meets 3rd at a right angle! - imagine if the whole city's streets were numbered! There are a hell of a lot more examples of this sort of numbered rubbish in unsuited places (for instance, check out Bushbury, Wolverhampton, UK on Mapquest - trust me, it's indescribable).
From such examples, you can draw a conclusion that the further a city deviates from an uniform grid, the less useful a street numbering system will become. In the end, it becomes a hindrance. Queens stretches reasonable street numbering to its limits. It would be just as well if not more suited to named streets. It would therefore be useful to at least display both name and number (as both have merit in the Queens situation). If anything Brooklyn is more suited to numbering throughout than Queens, and there they decided to keep the names.
Personally speaking, I much prefer named streets, but I accept that numbers can also be useful, indeed preferable in certain situations, such as where the name rings of pretentiousness or is merely WAY too long (e.g. "Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard" vs "7th Avenue" and "Doctor Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard" vs "125th Street" - I mean, anyone would prefer 125/7 to the monstrous phrase to describe those cross-streets!).
"Doctor Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard" is just an honorific -- the "125th Street" name is still valid. I'm not sure if that's the case with "Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard" vs. "7th Avenue" but I think it is.
ObSubway: Four subway lines have stations called 125th Street. No subway lines have stations called Doctor Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard.
Are the "new" names in Brooklyn just honorific too? Can one still reasonably talk about Sumner and Reid Avenues?
I believe so, but ask a Brooklynite to make sure before you offend someone.
It's a recent phenomenon that anyone even considers using the honorifics. Part or all of W. 84th Street is also known as Edgar Allan Poe Street (Drive? Boulevard?), but nobody ever uses that name, and if anyone tried to use that name, few would recognize it.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Avenue of the Americas in this thread. Back in the 50's or whenever it got that name, that became the name -- the 6th Avenue name was officially dropped, and the 6th Avenue street signs were removed. The problem is that people continued to use the 6th Avenue name in directions and addresses, and tourists got lost since it wasn't on the signs. Finally, about ten years ago, NYCDOT relented and put up 6th Avenue signs. Now both names are official.
A few years ago, there was also a proposal to make the Museum Mile nickname (on part of 5th Avenue) the official name, and again the only official name. That idea was quickly dropped due to pressure from 5th Avenue residents (and museums!) who didn't want to lose the prestigious address.
Cant mess with 5th Avenue, they love writing it too much on there envelops :)
Nobody calls Garvey Blvd Sumner anymore but alot of people still call Malcolm X Blvd Reid Av. In Brownsville alot of people still call Mother Gaston Blvd Stone Av while very few people still call Boyland Street Hopkinson Av.
Living in East Meadow they changed the name of Newbridge Avenue to East Meadow Avenue about 20 yrs ago. As an old timer of 49 and a creature of habit I still call it Newbridge Avenue and none of my neighbors know what I'm talking about. They think I mean Newbridge Road!!
I still call the Jakie Robinson, the Interboro.
I call it the Jackie Interboro.
So do I. Jackie Robinson was too good a ballplayer to have such a lousy parkway named after him!!!
The new names in Brooklyn (Garvey, X, Boyland, Gaston) are the official names. The old names are completely dead except for those who hang on to them. The same for Powell and Douglass Blvds in Harlem.
Since the Brooklyn names aren't part of an easily recognizable numbering system like the ones in Manhattan, the old ones will die easily.
My 79-year old neighbor, who owned a candy store at the corner of Sumner Ave. (a.k.a. Marcus Garvey Blvd.) and Fulton St. for many years, favors Sumner Ave. Not sure what younger people use.
I don't like when they change names period on streets, Whether it be for John F Kennedy, or Marcus Garvey, or Jackie Robinson, or whoever. I like the historic names. There's no problem with giving them honorary names like the 125th Street/Martin Luther King Jr. thing, or the Sunrise Hwy-MIA/POW Memorial Highway.
Sumner should have stayed Sumner, etc, etc. I guess if the Myrtle El was stil there, Sumner Ave would have been added to the list - no exit the namesake's stations street.
I guess if the Myrtle El was stil there, Sumner Ave would have been added to the list - no exit the namesake's stations street.
Sumner was, however, VERY close to Broadway.
>>>"Sumner was, however, VERY close to Broadway."<<<
Not that close, Sumner begins at Broadway 1 block east of Flushing
Avenue and travels south. By the time it reached Myrtle there are
a number of street between Broadway & Myrtle and Sumner & Myrtle.
Broadway Brooklyn bisects in a Southeast direction vs Sumner in
a Southerly path.
;-)Sparky
Marcus Garvey Blvd, everyone just calls it that now
The oddity here is during the course of a year, I'll have occasion
to traverse Sumner & Reid Avenues, but the street signs are fully
changed to read Marcus Garvey or Malcom X Blvd. Even on the B-46
Utica Avenue busses, the short turn local the digital reads DeKalb
Ave. & Malcom X Blvd. These are southbound trips to reach my
destination. On my return trips Northbound, most times I use Marcy
Avenue, which has a long honorific sub name on the street signs,
but here Marcy Avenue is on top.
Another street that comes to mind in Northern Brooklyn that goes
from Greenpoint to Bushwick is Graham Avenue. On the North end,
till Meeker Avenue its, plain Graham Avenue. South of Meeker Ave
[BQE] it gains an Italian honorific subname till Grand Street.
At Grand Street, the honorific subname is for the Puerto Rican
community. But the point its still Graham Avenue first.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
One block E/O Garvey and two blocks w/o Reid is Lewis Avenue. On all the street signs on Lewis Av it says (right under Lewis Av) Dr Sandy Ray Blvd. I don't think anybody has ever used that name yet! Probably only 1% of the people has even noticed it on the sign!!!
While we're on the subject does anybody other than his widow ever call the Meadowbrook Parkway the "The Senator Norman J. Levy Memorial Parkway"? Yet thats what the sign says its called right after it branches off the Northern State. I wonder what Robert Moses would have thought. I mean he never even named any of his parkways after his idol Governor Al Smith!! By the way, if they were going to name the Meadowbrook after a Levy it should have been George Morton Levy as the Meadowbrook went right past his Roosevelt Raceway!!
By the way Sparky, we keep missing each other at Branford.
Yeah, but the good thing about the numbering is the addresses. The numbers before the dash are the cross streets. The only exceptions that I know of (there might be more) are The Rockaways and Douglaston Manor.
Ridgewood and Broad Channel are two others.
Are you sure about Ridgewood? Don't they have the dashes with the cross streets in their addresses?
Dependent on whether your in Ridgewood, Brooklyn or Ridgewood,Queens.
;-) Sparky
What's very strange about Ridgewood is that luckily alot of the lod names survived, even though it is in Queens. I wonder why. Alot of the streets have never been re-numbered from the Brooklyn border Fresh Pond Road. It's not consistent though, some streets had their names up to Forest Avenue, and then lost them to numbers on the other side of Forest Ave.
The numbering is just as strange. Whether the street name was changed or not, one side of Forest Ave has the "Brooklyn" sequence of numbers, even though in Queens, 18-02, 19-02, then when the streets cross Forest, even the streets that still have names jump to 60-02, 61-02, etc. Anyone know why "Queens" Ridgewood got to keep alot of it's names, but lost a few also?
If memory serves correct, the Ridgewood section be it Queens or
Brooklyn was served by the Post Office of Brooklyn Zone 37
or 11237. So you lived in Queens with a Brooklyn Post Office
or whatever? Gotta look at the current zip coding for Brooklyn
in a bit.
;-) Sparky
Hagstrom's says 11237 for Ridgewood Brooklyn and 11385 for Ridgewood Queens.
I lived in Ridgewood in the 70's and our zip was 11227. It was changed in the early 80's to 11385.
did you ever find that info about the Jamaica ave subway?
Not anymore than was posted here, I have the IND book out and ready to reread, but just haven't had the time lately.
ok... makes a interesting read...love that book
>>>"I lived in Ridgewood in the 70's and our zip was 11227. It was changed in the early 80's to 11385."<<<
Thank you GP38, I may be seasoned, but I haven't lost it yet. You know what I meant. :-)
>>>"Hagstrom's says 11237 for Ridgewood Brooklyn and 11385 for Ridgewood Queens."<<<
AIM, the official Postal designation for 11237 is Wyckoff Heights, Brooklyn and 11385 is Ridgewood, Queens.
But if someone where to ask me how to get to Wyckoff Heights in
Brooklyn, I'd give them directions to the "Hospital", not the
neighborhood.
;-) Sparky
Forest Hills Gardens is SO exclusive, it not only doesn't conform to the Queens street numbering and address system, but it has its own street light and sign system, making it look like it's not even part of New York City. Other than military installations (Forts Totten, Hamilton, Wadsworth, Tilden) and a couple of private enclaves in the Throgs Neck section of the Bronx, that's the only place in the city you'll see such an arrangement.
Before the seventies, street maps of Douglaston Manor showed the usual numbered avenues. But since then, the streets have assumed their historic names and dedicated address numbers. Normal NYC lamp posts and green-and-white street signs are present, however. Malba also is this way.
Interestingly, 81st Avenue and 82nd Avenue,Road and Drive in Kew Gardens shun the Queens address system while keeping their numerical designations. Parts of a few named streets (Audley? Abingdon? Beverley?) may also shun the hyphenated system as well.
What's funny is that large parts of Brooklyn with primarily numbered streets- Bay Ridge, Borough Park, Bensonhurst, Midwood, Sheepshead Bay, Gravesend, Flatlands, Canarsie- use a similar address system to Queens, but without the hyphen. Where lettered avenues are present, the address is oriented to the numerical position of the letter. So 12XX East 14th Street is south of Avenue L, the 12th letter of the alphabet.
Riverdale (don't EVER call it the Bronx in front of a Riverdalian!!) also uses a numerical system for its N-S streets geared to the number of the intersecting numbered street.Again, no hyphens.
Riverdale (don't EVER call it the Bronx in front of a Riverdalian!!)
Why not? The Bronx isn't all bad! Saying Riverdale was not in the Bronx would be like saying Rockaway Park wasn't in Queens!
Some people are just snobs. I knew a guy who lived in the Pelham Parkway section of the Bronx who referred to his neighborhood as Pelham, which is quite a different place.
There was a posting on this board from someone who lives near Fulton
Street & Atlantic Avenue LIRR, that called their hood "Crown Heights".
Sorry to say but that is Bedford~Styvesant. Crown Heights is served
by the IRT on Eastern Parkway.
Also the residence of Riverdale look upon others of their "hood" as
inferior dependent on which side of the Parkway they reside.
;-) Sparky
Of course, I appreciate the obvious arguments for street numbering (stranger arriving in a town and looking for, say, 10th St will find it between 9th and 11th Sts etc...). This however, doesn't quite work in Queens.
You can mess people up in Manhattan, too, thank to the bent grid in Greenwich Village that allows there to be an intersection of 10th St. and West Fourth St. (the city planners 175 years ago must have had a bunch of yucks on how that would confuse the country rubes from north of 42nd St. when they did that...)
You can mess people up in Manhattan, too, thank to the bent grid in Greenwich Village that allows there to be an intersection of 10th St. and West Fourth St. (the city planners 175 years ago must have had a bunch of yucks on how that would confuse the country rubes from north of 42nd St. when they did that...)
In Lower Manhattan, alot of the streets south of 14th Street were there before they laid out the grid system, so that's why some of the streets don't conform. North of around 4th Street was probably farmland when they laid out the grid system. Hard to believe isn't it! Actually I've seen pictures of upper Manhattan from the turn of the centry, and that was really rural in the 1800's and early 1900's yet, as was most of Queens and much of Brooklyn. Think of what happened in the last 100 years!
In 1804, the village of Greenwich was already established west of the current 6th Ave. East of 6th was swamp and farmland. That's why the grid goes down to Houston on the east side but only down to 14th on the west side.
The High St. station on the A/C has no exit at the street it was named after, but not because any exits were closed.
The portion of High St. where the station is located was renamed, and is called Red Cross Pl.; a separate portion of High St. -- which retains the name -- exists directly to the west.
Does this one count?
Ferdinand Cesarano
Sure does, and I'm surprised I missed that one.
Its cousin York Street has an entrance about half a block from York, but the platform itself is entirely south of York.
Did the Carroll Street Station on the F ever have a Carroll Street exit? It currently has open exits on both ends, at 2nd Place and President Street (one block from Carroll). I certainly understand how a namesake exit could be closed, but how does a station get named after a street it doesn't exit to at all?
No, I don't think it ever did. I guess it's just one of those IND mysteries, like why Jay Street is named Jay Street (the lines run along Jay Street there, and the next stop on the F is also on Jay Street).
like why Jay Street is named Jay Street (the lines run along Jay Street there, and the next stop on the F is also on Jay Street).
I think it's because Jay St is a major street, and they wanted to name it as such. They could have named it Fulton or Willoughby, but I think they just liked Jay st better. (Plus the A line runs on Fulton).
After stopping at Jay, the A/C turns onto Schermerhorn, not Fulton. Fulton is occupied there by the IRT.
Yeah, it is strange that they called it Jay St, as like mentioned, it is the street the subway is under, not a cross street. But at least Jay Street is there when you exit. Carroll Street was never a spot where you could exit from it's namesake station!
Jay Street should actually be something like Myrtle Ave. Maybe they felt there were too many Myrtle Avenue stations at the time? (Although, if it was called Myrtle, It could be added to this list because Myrtle Ave was abandoned to Jay to build Metro-Tech.)
The way that area is building up, "Jay Street-MetroTech" seems like an appropriate change (if they ever decide to rename it)
That wouldn't be a bad idea. Actually the "Boro Hall" name is also sort of inacurate. Borough hall is not all that close to the station. I assume it was called that from the beginning, and was actually the IND's only Boro Hall station, so that's why they called it Boro Hall.
And I dislike the Borough Hall name for other reasons, I call it Brooklyn City Hall.
lol...I've heard those reasons...okay call the station "Jay Street-Brooklyn City Hall".
And I dislike the Borough Hall name for other reasons, I call it Brooklyn City Hall.
YAY!!!
If anything, should just call it "Jay St-MetroTech" most accurate, simple n sweeet
Or Myrtle-Willoughby, like the station on the G? The IND liked hyphenated names.
Was the Borough Hall subtitle there from the start? It should be removed.
How about Myrtle-Willoughby? Sort of matches with Clinton-Washington (of which there are two in the IND), and Bedford-Nostrand.
What about Metropolitan Avenue~Grand Street on the 'G'. The Map
calls it Metropolitan Avenue, but the tiles still included Grand
Street, that's post renovation. The mezzanine to Grand Street is
completly occupied by the TA Police District. Before the closure
of Grand Street, the exit was at Hope Street & Union Avenue, a block
away. When the Q-54 & Q-59 are on there regular routes, there are
no longer any bus stops at Union Avenue & Grand Street either.
;-)Sparky
Yes, I forgot about that one! In the case of the mosaics, I believe some of them in some stations are landmarked, so they can't remove or alter them in renovations. That may be why they also kept the Grand Street in the tablets after the renovations. But from what it sounds, the closed exit didn't even have a Grand Street exit! So the station may never have had a Grand Street exit. It's interesting why they even added a second name to the station to begin with!
Well at the time the line was built, Grand Street had the main
surface line access to the area [Grand Street & Metropolitan
Avenue car lines] from East Williamsburgh & Queens. That's why
I made the notation in reference that the current bus lines don't
even stop at the intersection. The Union Avenue carline was rerouted
to Lorimer Street, with the construction of the Crosstown Subway
and all surface tracks removed to Broadway.
;-)Sparky
Oh, so that's where those staircases at the other end of the platforms go!
Having trouble wading through all of this. Simple question: Did anybody mention Hewes St. on the B'way El? The stairs to Hewes St. are there, even been refurbed. But the only access is B'way and Hooper.
Yeah, this thread started to flow in many directions, although fairly on topic.
Anyway, no, no one mention Hewes Street station as having it's HEwes Street exit closed. I did notice that all the Broadway el stations that were rebuilt, they rebuilt the whole exit area of the abandoned (unused side) of the stations, in addition to the rest of the platforms. They even extended the canopies over the stairways.
Again, you would have to go one more block past Court - to Clinton Street- the (unused) WEST entrance to the Court Street station is at the NE corner of Court and Schermerhorn, and the station ends a few yards past Court Street's west side.
wayne
The entrance to the Transit Museum is right AT the corner of Boerum Place and Court Street.
wayne
Actually the main entrance is at Boerum and Schermerhorn Streets. The old Court Street exit hadn't been used, although someone said they added a handicapped entrance there.
Boerum Place and Court Street never meet.
I doubt that connecting the stub at Court St. to the WTC stub would make fiscal sense. Billions of dollars for a tunnel which would increase capacity on a line that doesn't need it? If another line was branched off the Fulton St. IND, say sown Utica Ave, then this connection would be very valuable.
I believe Court St. Station was the last Stop, according to this site, those tracks were used for a Shuttle Train.
Court Street was indeed the LAST STOP, but it was not intended for a Shuttle! Oh No! Please do remember that NO IND Locals were supposed to cross from Brookly or Queens into Manhattan.
Queens Blvd and the Culver routes were supposed to share the GG local, while the Fulton HH local was to have terminated at Court Street. The Proper configurations (as planned) for the HH line died when they SEALED UP 76th STREET!
Elias
If you read it on this site, it says that there was a shuttle.
Yes, there was a HH shuttle. If I remember correctly, they had a lot of patronage on the Fulton local so they wound up routing it into Manhattan. Nobody wanted to go to Court St.
Ya and that's why they sut down that Shuttle and made Court St. Station into the Transit Musuem.
Actually, Court st was going to be the Brooklyn stop for the Second ave line after the East River tunnel...as the revised plans for the second system stated...there was also going to be another route to Brooklyn from the 8th ave line at Canal st terminating at Driggs Ave.
Oh I didn't know that, Thanx!
dinada....
There was a shuttle, but that is not what was originally planned for the Court Street station. Court St was to be a similar to the World Trade Center station stub. The Fulton locals were to use the Court Street station in a similar way to the way the E's use the 8th Ave line and terminate at WTC. Of course, plans changed as the second system was not built, and the shuttle is what wound up using it.
That is correct, but Court Street's use as shuttle had nothing to do with the Second System, one way or the other. One of the IND's planners theory (one of their better ones) was that local trains were to provide local service, both in the sense of "local" meaning frequent stops and "local" meaning serving a limited area.
So people were to get on an express in the CBD (original IND has fewest local stations** in the CBD of any of the divisions) then switch to a local for their outlying destinations, where local stops were many and express stops few.
Court Street was intended as the terminus of the HH Fulton Street Local, which was to provide the local service in Brooklyn, while trains from Manhattan ran express. When the Fulton Street Subway opened in 1936, in the midst of the Depression, the BofT decided that express service wasn't justified yet, so Court Street opened as a shuttle station.
When Fulton Street express service finally started running in 1949, the theories had shifted and E service was extended to East New York to serve as the local to the A express, rather than reviving service to Court Street, which had closed three years earlier.
So now you now "the rest of the story." :)
**There were only three local stations in the entire CBD on the original IND system as built--50/8. 23/8 and Spring Street. Two more, 14/6 and 23/6, didn't become local stations until 1968.
the BofT decided that express service wasn't justified yet, so Court Street opened as a shuttle station.
Also because they couldn't terminate two trains at Rockaway. Only when Euclid opened could they run two trains along Fulton.
When the Queens Blvd line opened, the E was a local and the GG was a shuttle from Nassau Avenue to Queens Plaza. When the line was extended to Kew Gardens, the E became express to Forest Hills and the GG was extended there.
There were only three local stations in the entire CBD on the original IND system as built--50/8. 23/8 and Spring Street. Two more, 14/6 and 23/6, didn't become local stations until 1968.
Calling Spring Street part of the CBD is really pushing matters, though I suppose things were a bit different back in the 1930's.
Yes, But...
In the original thinking is was not supposed to be a shuttle, but rather, the Fulton Street Local. Indeed, the last useful stop would have in fact beeh HS, and the Court Street Station was merely the terminal.
That Idea Won't happen, You expect the MTA to move the Transit Musuem?? And that's to much money for the MTA to create another tunnel and to have the E Train come into Brooklyn.
I never said to move the transit musuem.
The idea was to access the tracks "infront" of the museum.
A tain would leave Hoyt-Schermerhorn down the Court Street Stub, but brach off a new tunnel under Boreum Place, in front the transit museum up to Court St Station N/R. Just accessing the tracks in front, not to move the museum.
Plus I too like where the museum is currently and many cool to hear trains echo ing plass while in the museum
In Manhattan, the E would urn straight up Church St, (as current) right into WTC station. (linking the N/R & E tunnels)
If it were moved, City Hall (BMT) Lower Level would be a cool Transit Museum!
The BMT lower level at City hall is used to lay up trains. also there are no tiles on the walls. What makes Court street so cool is that the original tile is still there.
Pre 9/11, I thought it would be great to tile the lower level of the BMT City Hall Station, and then in place of the mezz level at Court St. for other exhibits, a passageway could be built from the south end of the City Hall platform beneath the park over to the IRT City Hall stop. The exhibits could be located in that hallway and on the IRT platform, while a plexiglass wall could be built to keep the museum guests and the No. 6 train apart.
That would have allowed the museum to actually have a working subway line running through it, while the trains laid up on the lower level in the tunnel between Canal and City Hall could remain in place (and possibly one train could be redirected to the center track at Whitehall). However, post-9/11 the odds of building anything like that as close to City Hall as it would be are remote, at best.
Great idea, but I agree, after 9/11 it's not going to happen soon. Wasn't there some sort of plan to add the IRT city Hall station as an annex to the Brooklyn Transit museum. I guess the plexyglass would've had to be there anyway. I think Guiliani killed that idea, even before 9/11. I don't know how Bloomy feels about all this.
However, post-9/11 the odds of building anything like that as close to City Hall as it would be are remote, at best.
That's it, let the terrorists win! If Bloomie is SO worried about having a Subway right next to City Hall, he should go and move City Hall into a nuclear bunker on Second Avenue.
Bloomberg hasn't said anything about the City Hall station so far, but any actual proposal to move the Transit Museum to that site would certainly reopen the debate (battle, war, whatever) that Giuliani and his security people had with the MTA over simply allowing passengers to ride the 6 through the City Hall loop.
reopen the debate (battle, war, whatever) that Giuliani and his security people had with the MTA over simply allowing passengers to ride the 6 through the City Hall loop.
What's the problem with that? Is the Mayor even in City Hall most of the time?
How close to City Hall is this station? I mean, unless the station is directly under the foundations of the building, I don't see how a terrorist is going to harm City Hall from the station. It's not like they can pack a whole train full of ammonium nitrate.
Supposedly, there used to be a private entrance to the City Hall station from City Hall itself.
--Mark
The BMT lower level at City hall is used to lay up trains.
Which particular trains (I've had a quick glance at the N and R Lines' Timetables and can't see quite where it happens)? What stops them being laid up outside the station on the "Express" Tracks at Canal or even sent to Queens to use the center track of the Astoria Line if there are that many of them?
also there are no tiles on the walls. What makes Court street so cool is that the original tile is still there.
That's like saying "what makes the R32 so cool is that it has a railfan window". It's a nice feature, but not such an important one that one wouldn't use the facility if the feature wasn't there.
That's like saying "what makes the R32 so cool is that it has a railfan window".
Maybe that's why a lot of people like the R32.......
Seriously though, what I mean with Court Street is that, I find the historic tile is part of what makes that particular station an interesting museum. Sure, it would be a great museum even if the tile was put up in let's say 1995, but that tile was actually there in the 30's and 40's when the station was used for passenger service. It adds to the whole nostalgia aspect of the station.
Of course, don't get me wrong, that shouldn't be a deterent to stopping them from using lower City Hall station, but tile put up in 2002 would not have the same effect of nostalgia and history, than if the station had original tile from the 1920's, no matter how "retro" they make the tile look.
Of course, don't get me wrong, that shouldn't be a deterent to stopping them from using lower City Hall station, but tile put up in 2002 would not have the same effect of nostalgia and history, than if the station had original tile from the 1920's, no matter how "retro" they make the tile look.
Why go retro if you think you can do something more artistic ;-)
I always through the lower level of 9th Ave would be a good place. It could accommodate three 10-car trains. It can be sealed off at both ends (protecting the equipment from the elements) and the 38th St MOW yard is right there, too .....
--Mark
Yeah, pity the shuttle tracks to Ditmas have gone, or there could've been daily trips on the old trains on an "abandoned" line.
The possible problem getting the E to tie-in with the N/R at the WTC is the A/C tunnel which begins to the west of the E tracks on Church and curves east onto Fulton. It ends up four levels below ground at B'way-Nassau, but to work it has to be three levels below ground at Church-Vescey to allow the E's uptown track to go north on Church without requiring a crossing at grade with the N/R tracks turning onto Vescey going to City Hall.
If the tunnel is deep enough to allow a crossing above, you would also have to lower the platform for the E train at WTC one level, since it's too close to the Cortlandt St. N/R station for the uptown tracks to have a train stop there, then drop down and come back up again (connecting the downtown E to the N/R is easy -- just break out a wall, though having it stop twice in three blocks would be a bit of overkill).
Looking at the track maps in downtown Brooklyn, the easier way to solve the bottleneck would be to hook up the local tracks at Hoyt-Schemerhorn with the F tracks at Jay St., which would allow the C to use the Rutgers tunnel between Jay and West Fourth St. The two problems there are you cut Fulton St. service to lower Manhattan (though the number of A trains could be increase) or you limit any possible extension of the V south of Second Ave., since the F and C trains would already be using the Rutgers tunnel.
Just some minor corrections which don't affect your logic:
The A is 3 levels down at Bway-Nassau (the J/M/Z is 1 level down and 2 levels down, and there is no mezzanine in between anywhere). But Broadway is higher in elevation than Church St, so this corresponds to being 2 levels down underneath Church St.
I was thinking four levels because the A/C platform under the 4/5 underpass from the downtown tracks at Fulton/B'way seem a little bit more than right below the walkway, but you may be right; the ramps on the east side of the 4/5 platform may have fooled me.
The J/M/Z platforms at Fulton don't occupy a full two levels. The lower level track ceiling extends all the way to the upper level platform. Notice on the lower level that the platform has a lower ceiling than the track.
I hadn't noticed that. Definitely an example of the fact that a "level" is'nt a precise unit of measurement.
In other places, there are 3 distinct levels, though not all with tracks. The underpass under the IRT is above the A. The token booth at William and Fulton is above the 2, which is above the A.
Also, of course, my original point was that the A wasn't 4 levels down, but only 3.
I always get confused at that station, especially when I haven't been there in a while, I never can remember which direction the train is going to come in. I loose all sense of direction down there.
Me too! It's a very counterintuitive setup. It took me a long time just to figure out why I sometimes ended up transferring by way of the IND platform and sometimes not.
the easier way to solve the bottleneck would be to hook up the local tracks at Hoyt-Schemerhorn with the F tracks at Jay St
Complicated job, but you could end up with A and C Fulton Street Expresses and V Fulton Street Local :D
Going by the track map of the Bergen/Hoyt-Schermerhorn area, connecting the Rutgers tunnel tracks up to the Fulton local wouldn't be that tough -- the Euclid-bound track could paralell the center tracks used by the A/C out of Jay and ramp up over the G tracks to connect with the local track coming from Court St., while Manhattan-bound, there would be no obsticle at all to ramping the Fulton local tracks down to tie in with the F train before Jay Street.
It wouldn't be a cheap project, and there would have to be some reason to justify the cost based on increased passenger usage in central and east Brooklyn and southwestern Queens. But logistically, it's a lot easier option than trying to realign the IND tracks in lower Manhattan to either build a new tunnel to connect with the Court St. station, or hook them up to the BMT Montague St. tunnel, as mentioned in another thread.
A line: Brooklyn/Manhattan express (as is now)
C line: Brooklyn/Manhattan Local (via Rutgers,6th Ave to West 4)
Not a bad idea, only potential issues/questions:
1)Would C train passengers now overcrowd A line to access
Broadway Nassau during Rush hours?
2)Can the F handle trains switching in between its route (West 4th to Jay)?
Looked at the E accessing Montague Tunnel for 2 reasons:
1)New 8th Avenue access to South Ferry
2)Giving 8th Avenue riders easier access to Broadway line
----
B James came up with a nice addition,
A/C 8th Ave Express
V 6th Ave Local/Fulton Local
going one step further,
A: Far Rockaway (current route)
C: Lefferts Blvd (turns the same as A line)
V: Euclid Ave (Rutgers Tunnel)
So you've got the Fulton Local and the Culver Express both dead-ending at the same spot. Sounds like the perfect place to start a four track tunnel up to the 2nd Ave line (if only 2nd Ave was going to be 4 track). But I'm sure I'm stating the obvious.
Actually, the C would take over A line-Lefferts Blvd branch and the V would terminate at Euclid (where the C local currently)
Chrystie Street becomes 2nd Ave after Houton Street. Under the initial plans, Grand Street would have become a 4 tracked station…
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/2ndave/2ave-tr.gif
…who knows if the tracks east of Grand would have been a branch from Rutgers Street (if they decided not to build a new tunnel)
Overall I can't stand to see train lines dead end certain places when/where they have potential to do more
1.) If you only send the C to Euclid, than the C and A would never share trackage and theoretically you could increase the number of TPH on the A train (at least to the point where you max out the section between CPW and 145th St.) which would handle the passengers headed for lower Manhattan. If the C and the A share trackage between Euclid and the Rockaway split so that the C goes to Lefferts, then you only relocate the bottleneck from Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Canal Sts., to east and south of Rockaway Blvd. (some C trains could be short turned at Euclid to allow more A service, but they you tick off the Lefferts people who would already be ticked off at losing their direct express service to Manhattan).
2.) Since the F has to co-mingle with the E in Queens and with the V on Sixth Ave., and the E runs more TPH than the V does, that would leave some room for adding the C train South of West Fourth to share trackage with the F and V, but not enough under current rush hour schedules.
What the MTA could do is cut the number of F trains per hour to allow the C trains to fit into Rutgers tunnel, and replace those F trains with E trains to 179th in Queens. Sixth Ave. riders would still have both F and V service (and the change might actually force more passengers onto the under-used V train in Queens), while there would be a reduction in service for Queensbridge-Roosevelt Island-63rd/Lex and 57th/6th passengers, and if you run the V along Fulton instead of to Church Ave., the Culver passengers would also lose service.
As I said, hooking the E up to the BMT N/R tracks at Church and Vesecy becomes messy because of the A train traveling underneath. Unless they want to allow a grade crossing, the only practical solution is to either drop the A train's tunnel an additional 20 feet to allow room for a new tunnel linking the uptown N/R tracks with the E terminal at WTC (which would really mess up Brooklyn-Manhattan IND service during the construction phase), or drop the WTC station for the E two levels, so that it can go beneath the A and then connect with the N/R tracks between Cortlandt and Rutgers streets, or even between Rutgers and Whitehall, since the BMT tracks plunge down at the south end of the Rector station.
I heard on the news tonight it was 25 years ago that the lights went out in New York City. It was the blackout of 1977. It all started when lightning from a severe tstm struck a major substation in Westchester county. Once the transmission lines from Indian Pt went out, there wasn't enough power. ConEd tried to make up the difference but there just wasn't enough in-city generation. After Farragut and LILCO cut loose, the city's generators strained to the max. The remaining generators such as Ravenswood in Queens dropped frequency and tripped out, even after shedding loads in Westchester and 5 and 8% voltage reduction. At 9:30pm all 5 boroughs went dark. There are recordings of radio stations that night at the NY Radio message board, many mention the transit sitaution ( a real mess).
MNRR was Conrail at the time, and one report included people coming out of an emergency exit at Park and 59th needing medical attention.
LI was not affected because LILCO pulled out of the grid in time. Also because the Rockaways was powered by LILCO, their lights stayed on. Gee I wonder if the A train ran a Rock Pk to Rockaway shuttle??
I was only 1 year old at the time and living in Shirley, and I don't remember anything. It must have been weird. The same storms caused isolated outages on LI, not involved with NYC's blackout.
And I have to think could this happen again? I think it could. NYC is still to reliant on power from upstate, and lacks in city generation. Severe thunderstorms KO'ing important transmission lines into the city, during a long heat wave could cause the same problems. Just last week a major substation popped in Westchester, causing a city-wide voltage dip. And with terrorist worries (could they hit a power line?) NYC still remains vulnerable to blackout, to this day.
Definately check out the recordings, they are available at the NY Radio board http://musicradio.computer.net/wwwboard/
If any of you have blackout stories, I'd like to hear them. It must have been some mess in the subways.
There was an earlier blackout but I don't remember the year. It was in the 1960s during the school year. Con Ed needed more power but the electric grid it belongs to couldn't give it because they needed power themselves. (I'm a railfan not an power fan but I'm pretty sure the grid covers Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland.) The grid disconnected Con Ed from the grid and plunged New York City, Nassau and Suffolk Counties (I don't remember who else) into darkness. My father's LIRR train went dead around Rosedale and he hitchiked home. The next day in high school, the blackout was the #1 reason homework wasn't completed.
Michael
Washington, DC
There was an earlier blackout but I don't remember the year. It was in the 1960s during the school year.
Were you in summer school in 1967? There was a blackout in the summer of 1967 that affected much of the northeast. I was working a summer job in Camden when the lights went out. We assumed it was just our building until a few minutes later when it was noticed that the City Hall clock stopped at the same time. When we looked at Philly's City Hall clock with binoculars and saw that it had also stopped at the same time, we realized it was pretty big. Later we learned that New York and beyond were affected, too.
The first blackout was shortly after 5 p.m. on Nov. 9, 1965 and affected almost all of the northeast except for Staten Island and a part of southwest Brooklyn, which were able to cut loose from the regional power grid before the overload hit it.
New Yorkers, and people in the rest of the northeast, took that outage in stride, which is what made the 1977 blackout reaction, especially the looting and fires along Broadway in Brooklyn, such a sharp contrast (and probably also helped Ed Koch beat Bella Abzug in the 1977 Democratic mayoral primary, the same way the WTC attack turned a sure win by Mark Green in last year's mayoral election into a loss).
My mother said she was stuck on a J around Elderts Lane. Had to finally get off and walk the structure. She only had one more stop to go. Ouch!
That one was caused by a relay at a Niagara Falls Power Plant that failed. Since NYC is on the CANUSE Grid (Canadian Northeast US Electric). When that station tripped it caused a vacuum and power flowed into the grid. At that time, NYC could have stayed on if the operators at Con Ed were paying attention. One of Con Ed's plants went down whichc aused a domino effect.
At that time, Transit had just sold their own power plants to COn Ed and had sued Con Ed.
that blackout starteds as a fade out. at 510pm the TV picture was lost (juist snow. Mys ister asked if the lights were dimming.We thought she was kidding. Then the TV started pulling in on all isde ans finally died. We then went in the kitchen and turned on the tube radio after noticing the lights were dimming and finally went out.. The radio never warmed up and the electric clocked stopped at 528pm.
We went outside thinking it was just us and then we saw iot was our street, then we heard the stories" Russians bombed L.i, or UFOs landed, ad nauseum." We then finally learned it was citywide.
The next day school let out early and all customers had to reduce electric use including using half ther lights and half the elvators. Subways had to run all local.
Taxis charged $20 for two blocks since all gas pumps were electrically operated. It is my understanding that parts of NYC did go back out.
Even phones were out due to heavy use. One law was passed due to that blackout-- all elevators ahd to have battery backup or generator power long enough to get to any floor and open the doors. Laws wer e also passed stating sizes for emergency exits fromk elevator cabs.
Perhaps Matt-2nd Ave can elaborate on that part.
I was also at home in front of the TV when the blackout began; my dad was up in the Times Square area and was able to call before the phone problems really began. He also said one of the hotels north of TS -- the New Yorker IIRC -- had its own generator and was able to keep its power on while the rest of the area went black.
>>that blackout starteds as a fade out. at 510pm the TV picture was lost (juist snow. Mys ister asked if the lights were dimming.We thought she was kidding. Then the TV started pulling in on all isde ans finally died. We then went in the kitchen and turned on the tube radio after noticing the lights were dimming and finally went out.. The radio never warmed up and the electric clocked stopped at 528pm<<
You are right about the fade out. At about 5.27PM, the lights in my Brooklyn apartment were slowly dimming until everything went black. My father was recuperating in St.Johns hospital from an operation and told us that the night of the blackout, there was some panic in the hospital with some people believing an attack had taken place. Remember, this was 1965, the Cold War years.
I do remember some volunteers directing traffic on the corner of Ocean and Newkirk. Then, sometime in the we hours, the lights and TV etc came on.
Bill "Newkirk
Because Baltimore Gas & Electric is on the Penn-Maryland-Jersey Interconnect, we didn't get blacked out like New York. The dispatchers at PMJ reacted instantly to the voltage drops and cut the system off the northeast connection.
The blackout even sparked a rock song: "Where were you when the lights went out?"
"Where were you when the lights went out?"
Don't remember for sure, but I think there's a pretty good chance I was down in the cellar eating sauerkraut :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sauerkraut...with milk and sugar or just neat?
On a bun, with brown mustard and a kosher hot dog :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a movie by that title, too. It even featured a prewar HH train with the conductor played by the Maytag repair man.
I had flown out of JFK for Zurich on July 13, 1977 and read about the blackout while in Switzerland.
I remember the 1965 blackout quite well, even though that was back in my ankle-biting days. We lived in Connecticut at the time and thought at first that the problem was limited to a small area.
The bells in my elementary school were screwed up for several days until the maintenance people figured out how to reset them. Now that was enjoyable!
The first blackout was shortly after 5 p.m. on Nov. 9, 1965 and affected almost all of the northeast except for Staten Island and a part of southwest Brooklyn, which were able to cut loose from the regional power grid before the overload hit it.
I was in that area of Southwest Brooklyn (Brighton Beach) and our lights stayed on, but I remember my mom telling the family to shut them all off being worried about crime!!
--Mark
Rosemary and I were living in our junior apartment in the 260-xx block of Hillside Avenue, just inside the city line, when the blackout hit. I had just got home from night school and had taken a cold one out of the fridge when POOF! The lights went out at 9:29PM. Rosemary didn't want to stay in the dark so I walked her round the corner to her Mom & Dad's house. I could see the lights of Nassau County up at the fare end of Hillside. I rode over to Elmont and stayed with my own folks for a few hours to see if there was any news. The TV stations were out but WCBS radio was running on emergency power.
Power came on briefly where we were at 3:43AM, went out at 4:02 and came back on at 6:15AM. We got to watch the riots on TV later on the 14th. There was a particularly huge fire near Broadway Junction at Stone Avenue (Mother Gaston Blvd). All up and down Broadway stores were burning, and they had shut down "J" service. One giant fire was going at Myrtle and Broadway. Another fire was burning in the heart of Bushwick and burned down a whole block of homes on Greene Avenue.
wayne
That is such a shame. That used to be a beautiful neighboorhood. Never realized that some of the building loss was a result of the blackout.
It is definitely off its lows, especially up in the neighborhood proper. The block of homes that burned (bounded by Greene, Wilson, Harman and Central) has been rebuilt, and while still a very gritty inner-city neighborhood, is by no means unsafe. Lots of shopping up and down Myrtle Avenue and along Wilson.
Along Broadway though, much needs to be rebuilt and reclaimed.
wayne
Broadway looked like Berlin, circa 1946, well into the 1980's.
I could smell it in Woodhaven the next day, although I was too young to understand what I was smelling. My father refused to take the J to work for weeks afterwards, because he grew up in Bushwick and didn't want to see what had happened to his childhood neighborhood.
Well... I suppose this is better suited for BusTalk, but here's my story. I was driving a school bus charter -- 40 firemen from Great Neck -- to Shea for a Mets game. We were in the ballpark when the blackout hit. After waiting an hour or so, the game was called. I drove the bus back along Northern Boulevard with my red school lights flashing (probably illegal, but I wanted to be seen :-) and the cops along the way waved me through thinking I was an emergency vehicle.
The firemen, who had had a few beers to drink on the way to the ballpark, and many more during the delay, and even more on the way home, were very generous. They each gave me a $10 tip when we got back to Great Neck. Not bad, a $400 tip in 1977.
As I didn't have an air conditioner at the time, I was relaxing on my bed when the window fan started running too fast, I thought something was wrong with it. I shut it down. Then the tv went off and the lights slowly dimmed into total darkness. My landlord downstairs, who was having an evening snack cussed in frustration that the fuse blew again. I yelled in the hall that all houses in the backyard were darkened. He said "holy sh**"" and ran to the liquor store he owned at the corner to close it down, fortunately he had those sliding things which covered the windows so the store wasn't looted. I took my little transistor radio and truthfully tuned into WCBS radio. I forget the name of the anchorman, a Greg someone or other. He was a fill in guy with a weird shift: weekend mornings and 3 daily evenings. I didn't sleep at all that night, it was sooooooooo hot! I did not go tho work the next day since I was working for Chemical Bank at the time and the main safe would be unable to open since the clock timer stopped when the lights went out.
Well... I suppose this is better suited for BusTalk, but here's my story. I was driving a school bus charter -- 40 firemen from Great Neck -- to Shea for a Mets game.
You actually admit to visiting "Grant's Tomb" in the late 1970's? Wasn't the blackout just a few days after the infamous Seaver trade?
You're one brave dude.
He was getting paid.
I should hope so.
A month later, to be exact. Seaver was traded to Cincinnati on June 15, the trading deadline in those days. Dave Kingman was also unloaded that same day. It came to be known as the Midnight Massacre.
I still say the Mets never would have tanked in the late 70s had Gil Hodges remained alive. Grant never questioned Gil. Heck, Whitey Herzog, who also worked for the Mets at one time, once told Grant to his face that he "didn't know beans about baseball".
The Mets were playing the Cubs when the 1977 blackout hit during the sixth inning. Play was suspended and the game completed at a later date.
Good thing you were only 1 year old, you might have complained yourself to death. :-)
yes, this could happen again at any moment, NYC could go completely dark, riots will break out, and it will be hell on earth. if i were you, i'd never, ever come into NYC again, cuz you just never know.
my god i love this town :)
My favorite movie is 'Escape from New York.' In 1983 we had a blizzard that stunned the city...I made it into Manhattan from Long Island in an hour, stopped to take a break and wound up spending the night under the George Wasington Bridge. My car was full of groceries, I was heavily armed but I COULD NOT SLEEP THINKING OF SOULS LOST IN MIDWEST BLIZZARDS. Thousands were in the 'same boat' and human compassion/comaraderie was explicit. We were all safe together...only a fool would have tried to take advantage of our 'entrapment.' The worst: stuck next to an Oldsmobile closed block diesel...the worst hangover I ever had in my life. My September 17th classmates still laugh at me for my Sept. 11th collection of survival supplies. I carry food/water/fuel/two batteries/...HF/VHF/UHF communications...tools/clothing...and everything lawful to get my butt out or provide rescue service. Trick is timing...beating out the wimps and cowards. CI Peter
I remember that all too well - February 11, 1983, a Friday. I was working in Brooklyn (N.4th & Bedford) and living on Little Neck Parkway (87xx block) and we were well forewarned of the storm so I got the cars off of LNP and onto the side streets and headed out that morning via the Q36, and on to the "F", "G" and "L" trains. By 12:45 PM it was snowing to beat the band and we were dismissed from work at 3:15PM, well ahead of the 5PM quitting time. So off to the "L" I heade (after charging up at the bar on Bedford betw. N6 and N7), I decided to pick up the "F" at 14 Street thinking I would get a seat, but NOPE, there were standees even then (the snow was falling onto the tracks through the sidewalk grates at 14 Street), R46 #906 (the old number) took us out and we were crush loaded by the time we got to 47th Street-Rockefeller Center. It was some of the worst crowding I have ever experienced, certainly as bad as that R-6-2 back in '73 (this time nobody threw up), and it didn't thin until UNION TPKE! ANYWAY by the time I got out of the subway about 4 inches of snow had fallen, and the queue for the Q36 was around the corner of 179 Place. I stood in the snow, which accumulated on my head. The bus was murder, as bad as the train. And we crawled along at barely 5MPH in the blinding snow. Finally got off and made it the 300 yards to my door but by then it was a full blown blizzard. We had 20 inches by the next morning.
wayne
Hey Wayne, was the heat on in that R-46?:) I couldn't resist.
We got belted twice that winter by heavy snow: 24 inches on Christmas Eve and something like 18 inches on March 4, 1983. Snow removal was a joke; Mayor McNichols lost his job because of that.
I believe the standard climate control was working on that R46 - it wasn't terribly uncomfortable when I boarded, but by the time we got to 5 Avenue (at which point passengers could neither board nor depart), it was rather uncomfortable.
wayne
The F is mostly underground, so it should not have had so many delays due to the snow. I guess trains were delayed in Brooklyn, but the TA should have had "snowbirds" layed up on express tracks, just in case.
Nice cool thought on brutally hot days like these. Even though I'm a winter person, whenever I do complain about winter weather, I think of these brutal days of summer and am glad it's winter.
I'm the opposite, whenever there's horrible weather like this, I'm just happy it isn't winter.
Because it isn't going to snow in weather like this, and that's the biggest advantage to the summer.
What happen with the area in Brooklyn along the J train?
Also, what about the public transit in the city?How was the situtation during the blackout period?
Broadway in Brooklyn, under the elevated J line, suffered very heavy looting and arson. Ride the J out to Jamaica and you'll notice that the areas between Marcy and Broadway/ENY are much more run-down than the stretch along Jamaica Avenue east of Crescent. At least to some extent that's a lingering effect of the riots.
You are correct. That area is STILL struggling to overcome the effects of those few days!
So that area has never been rebuilt?How was the area before the Blackout?
just feel bad about this.....
I have no personal knowledge of what the section of Broadway under the J was like pre-1977, but from what I've gathered it was a relatively downscale but still thriving district. Today it would be quite a stretch to call the area thriving. There still are quite a vacant storefronts and abandoned buildings, although things might be improving a bit.
True story: one evening a couple of years ago, I stood at the railfan window of an R-42 all the way out to Sutphin Blvd. After the train passed the curves and entered the stretch above Jamaica Avenue through Woodhaven and Richmond Hill, I noticed that I could see the elevated structure much better than had been the case earlier in the trip. But why? It had gotten darker out and the train's headlights weren't any brighter. Then it dawned on me. Light was coming from storefronts and illuminating the structure from below. When the train had been running along Broadway, in contrast, so many of the storefronts were vacant that there was much less illumination from below.
Actually I found the run alng the J thru Williamsburgh, as far as B'way-Myrtle not bad and rather lively in those years. Even before the riots teh Bushwick stretch from there to Eastern Parkway was a step from hell, but still better than Brownsville...or much of the Bronx.
That was a crazy summer. The city was gripped in fear thanks to the Son of Sam shootings. The Yankees won the World Series, and I was already railfaning on the M line on a regular basis.
My neighbor's dog tells me to go railfanning!
And if you'd like to know where I go railfanning, let me give you some clues as to where I go, and what I see along the way.
The wicked King Wicker
Knock on pines
Sam "wheaties",
I'd just graduated high school and was working at a day camp. We were closed that day (and got docked pay accordingly!!), but I noticed that the Q16 and 76 were running along Francis Lewis Boulevard in Whitestone. What was the point? No subways were running and everything was closed.
The lights went out while I was relieving myself in the basement bathroom during a commercial break during GOOD TIMES. My dad immediately yelled "What the hell did you DO down there?!" I was somewhat absolved from blame when it became apparent the whole neighborhood, then city, was down. One neighbor, a Con Ed worker, was being ganged up on by the rest of the block.
Couldn't get much sleep without air conditioning. There was nothing to do the next day except look at the wall clock to see if the power was back on. The phone was working, but because somebody dropped it, a strange ringing sound was heard whenever the rotary dial (remember them?!) was turned. That added an unwanted element of surrealism to an already scary situation. Power came back briefly a few times around 3 or 4 in the afternoon, then permanently around 5.
That was a terrible summer all around. I only had to use the bus to get to work, and generally avoided the subways. If I did have to use them, I took the Q76 a half-hour to Jamaica for the F train, whose spanking new R46s could always be relied on to have working A/C. This was preferable to the ten-minute trip on the Q16 to Flushing. A/C had not yet invaded the A Division. One weekend, lacking anything better to do, I rode an R44 on the D all the way from 205th to Coney just for the coolth. The non-A/C R32 I rode on the B back out of Coney was a stark contrast.
I was in first grade for the first blackout and remember (a) it hit as we were driving back over the Whitestone Bridge from my brother's orthodontist in Parkchester; and (b) I was very upset that I couldn't watch Yogi Bear, Woody Woodpecker, or whatever cartoon Channel 11 was showing at dinnertime. My brother was ecstatic he didn't have to do his homework.
For many years we may have thought a midsummer blackout was the ultimate in urban choas and helplessness. This past September 11 proved us wrong.
I was about 24 & living on Long Island. When I heard about the blackout in the city I decided to drive in to see what it was like. What a mistake. I got off the LIE by Queens Blvd & Woodhaven and with the traffic lights out I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for about 2 hours. I finally made it back onto the LIE and made it home.
When the big blackout hit in the mid sixties I was in a classroom at Hebrew School at my synagogue. (we went during the PM's after Public School) When the lights started flickering we all started making jokes about the Schul not paying their electric bill! Then the lights went out completely. My father found a diner (The Empress on Hempstead Tnpk by the Wantagh Pkway) which had their own generators and therefore power and that's where we had dinner. In those days everyone seemed to have transistor radios.
I was a junior at Stuyvesant HS. I had stayed after school for the "intramural bowling club" at a bowling alley at 14th St. between, IIRC, Ave B & C along with "DaWheelFlange's" dad. I couldn't get down the stairs at GC quick enough to get the local that was there. It took off, an express followed and left. While waiting for the next local the lights went out in the train headed for TS. Our train rolled in and was able to stop. NO lights but the platform still had lights. Eventually the platform lights went out and word filtered down that the street lights were out also. Its now about 6pm and of course its dark outside because its November and Eastern Standard Time.
I walked to Fifth Avenue, which was a two way street then,and waited for a northbound #15 to Jackson Heights. Of course everyone was full and I realized that I should get on the S/B side. Climbed in the back door of the first one to arrive. Rode it down to 25th St and it turned around.
Got home about 8PM that night. The driver said he was going to make limited stops so he could get back in to get more people home.
I remember that the probationary cops in their gray uniforms were on most corners and there was a full moon on a clear night to provide light.
When I got home my mother asked why I didn't call. I said I thought that if the electric was out the phones wouldn't work either.
And today alot of people don't even carry radios on them anymore. Now with the popularity of these stupid "discman" things, people don't even have radios on them. Yeah if ya didn't know most of these discman things don't have AM/FM radios.
One of the many reasons, portable cassette radios are better.
One of the many reasons, portable cassette radios are better.
You don't need to have a cassette deck in order to have and AM/FM radio, you can have one that's standalone, and avoid the useless, obsolete cassette deck.
The reason discmen don't have AM/FM radios is because there isn't a point. Radio sucks, especially FM radio. AM radio is only useful for breaking news, but with the horrible music selection on FM radio, there's no point in playing FM radio when you have the option of using CDs.
If you want to have radio, carry an AM/FM radio, smaller than a cassette deck and small enough to fit in a breast pocket.
You don't need to have a cassette deck in order to have and AM/FM radio, you can have one that's standalone, and avoid the useless, obsolete cassette deck.
Speaking as someone who owns over 200 cassettes, I can say that cassette decks are neither obsolete nor useless. I did not start buying CD's until 1996, and I still recorded my own tapes for another 4 years until I bought a PC with a CD player and a burner.
If you had 200 vinyl records, it would be the same.
Vinyl records are even more obsolete. I'll agree that tapes have their place, but vinyl is dead. As dead as 8-tracks and wax phonograph tubes (invented by Thomas Edison, who did NOT invent an electric hammer).
Vinyl isn't quite dead. Millions of people still own records (my mother's collection of 45's from the late 1950's would make most collectors drool), and DJ's use them as musical instruments. It's not the technology which keeps turntables and cassette decks in production, but the demand by those of us who lived well before the flavor of the moment (compact disks) was invented.
It's still obsolete.
Your mother's collection of records falls into the antique category.
To bring this back on topic: Like a steam locomotive, sure they still have them, but that doesn't mean they aren't obsolete.
To bring this back on topic: Like a steam locomotive, sure they still have them, but that doesn't mean they aren't obsolete.
It's not the same thing. New steam locomotives aren't being produced.
Believe it or not, there was an offshore company building new steam locomotives just a few years ago.
It was the Chinese. Three tourist railroads bought locomotives, two were delivered, one was sunk (with the ship it was on). One road sold theirs to the Susquehanna (NYS&W) where it still is.
The locos arrived in Chinese National Railroad mode, one still is, AFAIK. The Railroad that sold theirs actually made it look like an American engine.
Perhaps one of the SubTalk community knows more.
Somewhere, at the bottom of the ocean lies a brand new steam locomotive!
But the guy who invented small corporate jet aircraft also invented the eight track music deck when Phillips/Norelco cassetes produced music that sounded like the soundtrack of 'The Treaure of Sierra Madre.' LEAR as in LearJets. HF lives -.-. --.- and so does the Redbird Fleet. CI Peter
Yeah then explain why I saw the record store in Levittown I was at today spinning vinyl. And it wasn't old time music either, they were playing current dance music. And ya know it sounded damn good.
Antique store
Do they still make "new" phonographs?
Yeah, though they're harder to find than they used to be and the selection's much smaller, they still make 'em new ... pricey though.
I have been able to find turntables that play 45 RPM & 33 RPM, but not 78 RPM.
78's are out there, but you've got to go with the Euro ones of high price like Bang & Olefsen and similar. They ARE out there though. I still have a few 78's myself (jazz, blues, big band, honky tonk and such)
Luckily, I copied my favorites onto a 90 minute cassette about 15 years ago. I still have the original records though. They were pop records from the late 1940's & early 1950's. I upgraded to a 45 RPM changer in 1953. I still have the 45's too. I save everything!!!
Well, in fond memory of the old spring-powered 78's (no need for Cone Head to power them) there was nothing like a finger twirling on the label to give them that proper sound. And with the old hollow arm and diaphragm, you could but your ear next to the needle and hear everything without benefit of amplification. The perfect Enron music player. :)
I think I still have some of those little yellow adapters that you placed in the middle of a 45 to make the hole smaller!!!
I still have my folks' Magnavox hi-fi which they bought in 1954. It still works and is great for 78s. You have to use sapphire needles due to the heavy tracking force. A diamond needle on its tonearm will literally stop a 45 cold.
I have a 1956 RCA Victor console (with the 4 brass legs), had it overhauled in 1990, plays 78s great, will play OLDER 45s (pre-1969) OK but will tear up any new ones. I learned that the hard way.
wayne
I still have a Webcor tabletop automatic changer from the same period (1955). It gave up the ghost on me several years ago, and the local TV dealer said that he couldn't find the tube that it needed.
I never got rid of it because it was in a real nice wood case, and I get so attached to everything.
Last night, I found a beautiful 1951 RCA Victor television with a mahogany cabinet which has doors and brass handles. I'm anxious to see if it works. How could anybody throw something like that away?
If I could find one, I could play some of my old Allen Sherman comedy albums. The only one ever played on the radio now is Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah!!! He had alot more other songs even funnier than that!!!
Marge, is Bart at Camp Granada?
Let's not even go for the Spike Jones pile then. :)
The first transistor radio I ever owned was about the size of a pack of cigarettes and came with a 6 volt battery and an ear piece. For you nostalgia buffs, my mom bought it at MASTERS DEPT STORE in Manhattan in the late 50's for $14. If you invested that $14 over the years and see what advanced stuff you could buy today for that money you see how far down in price radios,TV's computers and such have descended.
That radio probably operated with six or less transistors and ate batteries like there was no tomorrow. Masters, Peerless and Korvettes are all gone. I collect transistorised short wave capable radios....tube sets are too much of a problem. Favorites include Delmonico/Nivico and Japan Victor Company. Remember the 'Gyp stores' of Times Square? I have two Zenith TranOceanics. CI Peter, WB2SGT, member of Quarter Century Wireless Club and Antique Wireless Association
Old radios got much better reception. I have several little radios from the 80s, pulls in stuff on AM and FM like crazy. Today's digital tuners can't even get strong stations in well.
The problem with AM/FM radios is that half of them think AM is the same as MW - which when you want to listen to a LW station is a bit of a problem.
Since 911 and my start in TA, I carry not only the leatherman tool collection but a triband multimode wireless phone and a HF/VHF/UHF transceiver capable of receiving everything but cell com frequencies. Two flashlights complete the collection. Being informed and aware counts the most...for escapong from New York City. CI Peter
One neighbor, a Con Ed worker, was being ganged up on by the rest of the block.
LOL!!!!!!!!
I was in sleepaway camp in PA giving play by play of the '77 blackout (via WCBS radio) from my little green transistor radio.
--Mark
i've noticed a few posts on this thread of those not knowing much about the '77 riots & blackout - this site has lots of .pdf file archives of news coverage of the situation.
http://blackout.gmu.edu/archive/a_1977.html
some of the language in said articles is probably downright derogitory by todays standards, but hey, i didn't write it...
I find it weird today areas like Washington Hts, part of the outer borough and LI get at time heavy warnings & brownouts, yet Times Square (which drain only God knows how much a minute) remains unaffects or talked about, are they on a seperate power supply?
It's not power distribution advantages but a matter of money. The heart of NYC is its soul and the place where commerce takes place and tourists visit. I constantly wondered what was happening to my answering machine...only my computer has an uninterruptable power supply...and then I saw my lights blink/the airconditioner shut down/the answerer flashed. Full power restored within 500 milliseconds. Outer boroughs and odd neighborhoods are not so lucky...the house I built in New Jersey has four UPS online at all times. CI Peter
In today's world with all this computer stuff, even a brief "dip" in voltage reaks havoc. And I imagine these new computer controlled NYCTA towers aren't too keen on even a voltage dip.
Back then radio stations tried to stay on just before the lights went out. The records slowed down and DJ's knew what was going on. In '77 they had generators that powered some studios and the ESB antenna, keeping the equipment running. With today's digital junk, the stuff would probably go off air the minute the voltage dips. And since "generator power" isn't usually a good steady voltage, digital crap just won't work.
An outage today would probably leave most radio and TV in NYC off the air, as today's equipment and costs make it impossible to provide reliable service.
And it was a mistake to sell the subway plants to ConEd. If we didn't, than the subways would have been able to run (except for IND which always used ConEd) in both the '65 and '77 blackouts.
I believe someone mentioned PATH was running during the '77 blackout, since they got their power from NJ.
So I guess some people took PATH to get downtown (from 33rd street to WTC)
With today's digital junk, the stuff would probably go off air the minute the voltage dips. And since "generator power" isn't usually a good steady voltage, digital crap just won't work.
Today nobody would notice anything slowing down, since anything that has to stay up uses an UPS, and mission-critical applications use even more reliable continuous UPS.
The only thing that would tell someone in a electromagnetic feces distribution center (FM Radio station) that the power is out is a red LED lighting up somewhere.
If you dislike digital so much, then WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE? Are you typing Subtalk posts on the old Underwood?
An outage today would probably leave most radio and TV in NYC off the air, as today's equipment and costs make it impossible to provide reliable service.
How are you qualified to comment on equipment and costs? Do you work at a TV station?
To ConEd and the politicos, midtown Manhattan will be more important than any part of the city.
Other areas will lose power before midtown.
Power companies in general tend to give business areas more reliable juice and bring them back quicker in outages.
Yeah that site is quite interesting.
Anybody here born during April 78?
I was only 5 at the time, but I remember it as clear as yesterday. Though some have argued this point with me whenever this subject has arisen, I still say that there was a MASSIVE thunderstorm that night just prior to the loss of power, at least over Woodhaven NY. Of course, being 5 at the time, I was upset at not being able to watch TV, or that my nightlight wasn't able to work (my mom had to light a candle in my bedroom to get me to go to sleep). I was blissfully unaware of the looting and arson, since Woodhaven was spared.
I was only 5 at the time, but I remember it as clear as yesterday. Though some have argued this point with me whenever this subject has arisen, I still say that there was a MASSIVE thunderstorm that night just prior to the loss of power, at least over Woodhaven NY. Of course, being 5 at the time, I was upset at not being able to watch TV, or that my nightlight wasn't able to work (my mom had to light a candle in my bedroom to get me to go to sleep). I was blissfully unaware of the looting and arson, since Woodhaven was spared.
I'll bet your mom was more than a little worried. Woodhaven may have been spared, but it was definitely in the "too close for comfort" category.
I was five months old to the day when the first one hit in 1965 but I remember the 1977 one quite well. Freeport had built its own electric power station after the first blackout so we weren't affected by the second one.
E_DOG
It wouldn't have mattered anyway as Long Island wasn't affected by the '77 one.
I can definately answer your question regarding the "A" train running in the Rockaways during the Blackout of '77. The answer was no. The only transportation service we had in my part of the Rockaways was the Green Bus Lines (Q21A and Q22).
I was switching at Pitkn Yard that night, miserably hot IIRC. I was about ready to quit and move to Montana so that was one of the last shifts I worked. We were all ordered to go out and tie handbrakes on all trains as there would be no power for compressors and of course concern was for brakes eventually bleeding off and trains getting away. My shift was up at 11:00 PM so when I did my tracks I was off. Luckily I could walk home from there...up Grant Ave to Atlantic where I lived. Hearing what happened later I was glad I didn't have to go thru any really bad areas.The events of that night helped further convinceme I was doing the right thing getting out of NYC and moving west. It was ugly, and a far cry from how good people were in the 1965 blackout.
Yeah such a shame what was going on in NYC back then. Even before the blackout, the problems were running rampant through the city. NYC was a dangerous place in 1977. I imagine the subways were pretty unsafe (and grafitti covered). God help us if those days return.
It took me 18 1/2 years to return for a visit; I felt I had better visit mom before it was too late; luckly I got back for a few more visits before her "last run" and glad I did. To say the least I was very impressed with the improvements and feeling pretty safe again.
I started railfanning again in 1977 after my subway riding had become virtually nonexistant after 1970. One area I explored a lot was the IRT, specifically the West Side. Those R-21/22s could really move. The graffiti was repulsive, but I never felt threatened.
Okay, I was back Friday, but too tired to post.
Railfan wise, my trip to Albany was somewhat boring. Buying the Amtrak ticket, the person really didn't look too hard at my High School ID: My name was over the bar code to scan after someone is absent, so the line read "Henry Szablicki - Absent". I look at my ticket, and sure enough it reads "Passenger Name: SZABLICKIABSENT/HE".
The cars designated for people not going to Vermont were the GOH'ed Amfleets, while the people going to VT were stuck with the pre-goh cars (but had better air conditioning). While waiting to leave NYP, I saw the Turboliner being towed in by a Genesis, it must have died in the tunnel or something. I suddenly was glad I decided not to wait for it's outbound departure, I'd have been sorely disappointed.
We ran on the local track from the drawbridge to Tarrytown. Just before Tarrytown, we started wrong-railing on the southbound express. Then, after passing the station we started wrong-railing on the southbound Local! Another Amtrak train was using the southbound express, and a local using the N/B local, which forced this odd move to keep us on time (so MNRR actually does care!).
Passing Croton yard, I saw the new CDOT Shoreliner IIIs, I noticed they have the new CDOT logo at one end. Further north, I saw the SPVs, old engine-hauled coaches, Fl-9s and other engines I couldn't identify, and a pair of LACKAWANNA MUs (??).
The CSX River Line, which I thought would have plenty of freight traffic to keep me occupied, was completely barren save for a parade of hi-rail MOW equipment.
Arrived at Albany early. My my, don't they pad generously!
While at the University, I noticed I could hear trains well but could not see them, even from the top of one of our 23 story buildings. I guess I'd have to know where to look.
On the way back, I missed the 4:15 Ethan Allen Exp. I would have been on the Adirondak at 5:15, except it was running 1 hour late courtesy freight traffic around Syracuse (according to the dude who sold me the ticket).
When the train did arrived, they did an engine change from a Genesis to a Genesis (?). I'm guessing one of them was not dual-mode. I saw the turboliner come in at 6:15 under its own power, and now I know what northbound trip it takes on Friday so all was not lost. The car I was in was a long-distance style GOH'ed Amfleet, with foot rests and curtains, and was right in front of the Café car (which had sold out of most of its food.
Leaving Albany I noticed the LSL from Boston was waiting to enter, it has its own Baggage Car and Sleeper plus several amfleets... this train must be loooong after it's combined with the NY half!
At some point north of Poughkeepsie I noticed a closed station called "Hyde Park". How many closed stations are there on the Hudson Line?
I noticed there were many ACMU trains in Croton yard, while on the way up there were none. I'm guessing most of the rush hour Hudson line trains are ACMU?
Leaving Croton Harmon a conductor had to fight off someone who insisted he could ride without a reservation, and referred him to Metro-North.
Around Yonkers the conductor announced Grand Central was next, then corrected himself... old habit?
We arrived in NYP less than an hour late, so everything was good.
Over here I rant about how bad the maps are for their little system... If I didn't get free travel on it I'd have incentive to complain.
Sounds like a pretty normal trip, except of course the southbound being EARLY ... one hour late is unimpressive for a run on CSX rails, and yes, LEAVING the city, the trains are often early. Had you caught one of the morning trains leaving from RENNSALA, they're early on arrival too AND the cafe car is stocked. I'm surprised that they didn't refill at Rennsala, they generally do a refill in both directions there. My guess is that the truck that comes in from Syracuse was late (yes, Amtrak TRUCKS it in since they don't trust CSX) and that's why you were empty southbound.
Hyde Park did indeed close a while ago, and yes your trip was pretty much as normal as it gets. Sorry. :)
SOOOoooooo ... whadya think of BRUNOVILLE where the (ahem, kaff) "station" was? Heh. They're claiming that the new station MIGHT open before the snow flies ... but they didn't specify WHICH winter.
The new station looks almost exactly the same as it did when I went in October... except now it has tactile warning strips. The sheer speed of this project is quite overwhelming.
To be fair, they did open that parking garage and relocate the bus stop to a much less convinient place on the street instead of right at the station.
Ah, you've gotten with the rhythm and logic of Smallbany already! Yeah, that's how life is when you're around Joe Bruno, and that station is as close to him as you can get without going to that baseball stadium of his. Still, when you come up here, you'll find the folks around here are pretty nice - it's the politicos that screw up everything. And ya gets to see it up close too. Heh. But it's still coming together faster and better than the legislative session. Never a dull moment around here though ... keep telling yourself that. ;)
When the train did arrived, they did an engine change from a Genesis to a Genesis (?). I'm guessing one of them was not dual-mode.
Good guess! The dual modes seem to be restricted to NYP-ALB, I guess so they won't wind up in New Orleans or Seattle. I documented the engine change on the Lake Shore from eastbound to southbound at ALB last Labor Day:
Lake Shore Ltd power, 1st unit
Lake Shore power, second unit
Lake Shore Ltd P32AC-DM
For those interested, there was a nice clear photo in yeterday's Post that shows the redbirds "falling" off the barge in North Carolina. They didn't even remove the number plates! All what seems to be missing are the trucks, and the windows and doors. Even the seats are still in them.
Ignore this post, see other one, some how the subject got screwed up.
I was watching Transit Transit News yesterday and they showed the Redbirds being dumped into the Delaware River for the Reef Program.
What channel is Transit, Transit showed on?
Transit Transit News: WNYE-Channel 25 at 3:30 pm on Saturday.
Thank you Sir, for the info.
No Problem, And you don't have to call me sir, I'm only 15, LOL!
No Problem, And you don't have to call me sir, I'm only 15, LOL!
Why should he give you any less respect because you're "only 15?"
Actually I don't want less respect I just don't like being called sir on the board.
You think you hate it now. Just wait until you get into your mid 20s and teens start calling you Sir.
(Now that I am 50 - I sort of expect it - I still don't like it - but I expect it).
Last week a C/R on the 5 looked a bit surprised when I addressed him as "Sir." I don't think C/R's are used to getting much respect from the public, unfortunately, especially not when the topic is broken windows.
I call'em sir. Should I say "Yoh bro waz up, how ya chillin?".
I was watching Transit Transit News
My condolences.
To the best of my kmowledge, no carbodies are dumped into the Delaware River. It's Atlantic Ocean of the coast of Delaware.
Everything that can float in water was removed - that includes the seats. That picture goes back a year, as 7871 and 7789 were among the first to go.
-Stef
That picture goes back a year! Why only in the paper now?
Here's a link to the photo and story, (it's at the far left) I can't find any way to make the photo larger.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07132002/index.shtml
The caption under the picture refers to the Reefing program that already started and is not a picture of a Redbird being reefed off the Carolina coast. That is why they used "an old pciture".
--Mark
They wouldn't be crazy enough to scrap those cars with the signboxes still in them? Would they? That would be a sin...
Maybe
..see what i am saying ..........pollute the ocean ...!!!
For those interested, there was a nice clear photo in yeterday's Post that shows the redbirds "falling" off the barge in North Carolina. They didn't even remove the number plates! All what seems to be missing are the trucks, and the windows and doors. Even the seats are still in them!
Yesterday while riding aboard a westbound train (M-1s), there were two trains sets (4 cars each) of M-7s testing on Main Line 1 Track (westbound express). One train I spotted about 1/4 east of Forest Hills Station, the second train was by Signal Bridge 32 west of Woodside. I admit compared to the pictures, the M-7 is a rather sharp looking train when seen in person. But I still say the pantograph gates have to go!! Other than that it is a sharp looking train. If anyone here lives along the Main between Jamaica and Woodside, be on the lookout!!
>>But I still say the pantograph gates have to go!!<<
No Paul, those pantograph gates HAVE to stay. That ADA thing you know. They don't want any blind person falling between the cars.
I heard about the M-7 test on the Railroad.net forum board, so you're on the money.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think they should try the spring coil cabling and chains between cars like the R-44/46s. The pantograph gates take away from the look of the cars, and as for ADA, the cabling works well on subway cars here, so why not apply them to the M-7. The gates make it look like a 85' subway car.
I think they should try the spring coil cabling and chains between cars like the R-44/46s. The pantograph gates take away from the look of the cars, and as for ADA, the cabling and chains works well on subway cars here, so why not apply them to the M-7. The gates make it look like a 85' subway car.
Ha you, Why are you coping my handle. Just kidding. What train do you run on or are you Extra List.
Robert
Might be like your handle....but you can't be the Train Man!! ONLY I CAN BE!!! lol juss kiddin'!! I am RDO Relief North 325R Mon/Tue M-313, Wed/Thu RDO, Fri J-311, Sat A-313, Sun L-308 (A BIG MISTAKE PICKING THIS!!!)
I have a large number of U.S. & Canadian transfers from 1930's to 1990's -- NYC, Philly, Boston, Chicago, L.A., San Francisco, Toronto, many more.
For details, email me at HP1944@aol.com
Harry
A subway car is like a sneaker. After 40 weeks, a sneaker is worn out. Sometimes sneakers can go more than a year. You can "rebuild" them by cleaning them and making them look good on the outside but still on the inside, they have the same beginning worn condition. Proper work does extend life.....
Unfortunatly, many of our favorite subway cars are worn. We have grown attached to them....we have grown up with them. They were there when we took a ride with our parents for the first time, like a baseball game. They were there when we first went to school and eventually work. They are hard to let go.
Yes my screen name does say alot. The redbirds may be dying and old and rusty physically. But emotionally.....they will be with us forever.
I have been reading alot of posts.....many saying they love the R-40 slants.......others the troubled R-44's. All I ask is that we all respect each others love for subway cars. I myself love the R-36's and R-32's and someone else might love the R-40's. Just like we have different tastes in sneakers....styles....colors....and manufacturers.
Thanks for taking the time......Ihope you enjoyed and maybe laughed a little....but its true.
Don't you hate it when your new sneakers won't tie or the top gets pulled apart from the bottom when you walk?
>>A subway car is like a sneaker. After 40 weeks, a sneaker is worn out. Sometimes sneakers can go more than a year. You can "rebuild" them by cleaning them and making them look good on the outside but still on the inside, they have the same beginning worn condition. Proper work does extend life<<
Unfortunately subway cars are more expensive than sneakers. And rebuilding them to extend their lives does run into the thousands of dollars per car. Transit and railroads have a term for this. They say the cars are at the end of their usefull life. When you spend thousands of dollars overhauling a subway car, for X amount of dollars more, you can have a new car.
Bill "Newkirk"
with a rebuildable car body ?? or replacement car body then rebuild?
Yes, and after a while, without proper cleaning, they can smell, too (duck, run)
--Mark
Well guess I have to put in a plug for the trains I loved most in my youth, the high-v and low-v on the old IRT. They took my grandfather, then my mother, finally me to work for seemingly endless years; the childhood experiences you mention were what I had on them. I thought they'd be forever but the beginning of the end came in 1955, the end came in late 63-early 64, so I rode the R1-9 on the IND instead.But I understand well how the lovers of the redbirds feel; hope I can get to NYC in time to get my last riding in on them, even if they and their predecessors (r17-22) replaced what I loved. They'll be with you in spirit as long as you live...like the old IRT is with me. The voice of experience....
On the Philadelphia telecast (channel 57) of the Phillies-Mutts game, the camera was on a bridge for the segue from commercials to the bottom-of-the-fourth. One Phillies announcer identified the bridge as the Whitestone Bridge. Another (probably Larry Anderson) said "I don't know about bridges; I take the 7 train." The first announcer then said "We all came out on the 7 train this morning...a very pleasant ride." The camera then showed an R62A on the 7.
They probably are used to taking the BSS down to Patison for home games.
I'm not that big of a LIRR fan, but what are the differences between the LIRR Electric Multiple Units(except the M-7)?? Because they all look different to me. Thanks for any info!
-AcelaExpress2005
"Because they all look different to me"
The different ones are the different contracts (i.e. Budd and GE). The same ones are the same.
I meant to say that they all look the same to me, sorry.
9001-9770 M1 Budd
9771-9944 M3 GE
and that information came from.....
NYCSUBWAY.ORG!!!
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/commuter/lirr/lirr-roster.html
THE m3S WERE BUDD
9891-9892 has been renumbered 9945-9946.
wayne
>>9891-9892 has been renumbered 9945-9946<<
For those of you who may not know, #9891 was the car Colin Fergusen shot those people. The last M-3 was #9944, so 9945-46 were numbers not in the original order.
Bill "Newkirk"
Im talking about in Technical terms.
The M-3s have that vent sticking out the middle windows.
BTW: On MNRR, there is an additional difference. All the windows are the long ones that can open on the M-3, while only the ones on the end open on the M-1s.
Metro North's By far look the best and are well kepted!
M3's have that sliding operaters window,M1's have drop stash windows.[plus the vents=M3]
The M-1 was built by Budd from '69 to '70 something. It is a 93,000 lb MU with 540 hp, riding on Pioneer III trucks. Control is GE SCM-4 (I think it's 4). There's a few minor differences between the early numbers and later ones.
The M-3 was built in the early 80's by Budd. It's a 110,000 lb car with 600 or so hp and cast trucks that are different. The body is identical on both, I believe. The extra weight came from the heavier motors and trucks, and the different cooling systems.
M-3s can be identified by the large air intake on each side that takes up a window, and a large blower casing below it. Air ducts run the air to the traction motors. This was done because the M-1s would suck up "the wrong type of snow" and short out at times.
The 1's and 3's can MU, and often do. They both share identical controls and braking, which is P wire. In this system, there is no air reduction on the brake pipe, instead, brake commands are handled by a current loop through the train. A brake control unit under a seat by the crew locker takes the signal from the current loop, and turns it into the brake command for the dynamics on the controller, and then takes the dynamic's current feedback, and subtracts the two to come up with the resultant brake input the brake unit uses to work the brakes. It is fail safe - maximum P wire current is required to release the brakes. The brake air line between cars does not change, but any drop (say, emergency cord or train sepperation) in it will automagically trip the brakes too. One beautiful result of this system is that braking response is instant in every car, at the same time. There's virtually zero delay, just the speed of light. It's also graduated relse, and automagic blending of dynamics - the engineer selects a brake rate and the train handles the rest. Braking automatically varies with speed - at 100mph, max service is 1.9mph/s, and it increases to 3.0mph/s at 50 and stays there the rest of the way to 0. It's a really slick system. BTW, this comes from the GE Blue Book on the M-1a's they built - corrections welcome :)
The M-7 is all new, and can't MU with the M- 1/3s. I suspect with 30 years of microelectronics improvements, the brakes are now digital and even slicker. Of course, IGBT traction technology (first MU in the US with it?), a new truck design, and other improvements were made. I believe Mitsubishi is doing the propulsion systems, and it's their first US order. It'll be interesting to see how well they run.
BTW, the M-2s have digitally controlled brakes as delivered from GE in the 70's.
The M-1's still have Passenger Release door buttons on the conductor's panel. The actual passenger buttons have long since been replaced by blank plates.
The M-3's apparently never had those buttons.
Can you explain what thoses were?
Can you explain what thoses were?
The were never used, that's what they were.
Well, maybe they were tried.
The idea was that instead of opening the doors, the conductors would unlock them, and then the passengers, either insideo or outside of the train, could push the button to open the doors. Kinda like the back door on the bus.
The geese NEVER figured it out. Thouh I can never ever recall them being promoted either.
Elias
In fact, once I believe the conducto must have pushed the worng button, for I saw the lights by these buttons come on, but nobody made a move to press them, and the conductor quickly opened the doors correctly in any event.
whats the most powerful american Diesel currently .and of all time
It terms of horsepower, weight, speed, or what?
all of those
The post powerful single unit diesel are the EMD SD-90MAC and the GE AC6000, both have a 6000 hp prime mover and AC traction. If you count multi-unit diesels the EMD DD40AX had 6600 hp and the Baldwin Centipeade had 6000. I don't have any numbers for TE, but I think that the modern AC units will win hands down there.
The post powerful single unit diesel are the EMD SD-90MAC and the GE AC6000, both have a 6000 hp prime mover and AC traction. If you count multi-unit diesels the EMD DD40AX had 6600 hp and the Baldwin Centipeade had 6000. I don't have any numbers for TE, but I think that the modern AC units will win hands down there.
Currenntly, I'd guess the GM SD 90MAC. Though GM's having lots and lots of trouble with the H engine.Their ass is against the wall, though, since the 710 won't be able to meet the sooncomming EPA regulations. So it's four stroke or "for sale", for EMD.
Then again, I wonder how hard EPA is too meet on a loco, given the lack of catalyst, EGR, air injection, etc.
4-stroke diesel engines for locomotives suck. They have absolutely no get up and go. God damn EPA. ITs not about efficienty, its just less power.
Not that hard, considering they just started phasing in regulations.
-Hank
Horsepower wise? Currently it's GE's AC6000CW and EMD's SD90MAC, both with 6000 horsepower, of all time, probably EMD's DD40X Centennial built for Union Pacific, they had 6600 HP, but this was accomplished with 2 prime movers (equipment-wise, they were the equivalent of 2 GP40-2 locomotives), by comparison, GE built gas turbines for UP which had 8500 HP,and EMD had a 10,000 HP electric demonstrator in the late '70's.
What ever happend to the 10,000 hp electric?
I have seen pictures of it at this also to see how big this thing was look at
If you're wondering what happened to your html I checked the source and you left out the quotation marks before the > at the end.
there is one UNION PACIFIC xxxxl BIG singe diesel loco parked as a
permanent display - as part of the railroad museum of pomona
california i plan to re visit soon .
they also have the largest ever steam locomotive BIG XXXXXL !!!
a sight to see ( located at the los angeles county fairgrounds )
in pomona california ........
Actually, that's NOT the largest ever steam loco, simply the largest ever operated on a non-experimental basis. The largest steamer ever is in the Franklin Institue in Philadelphia, Baldwin 60000.
The big diesel is a DD40, but that's a pair of prime movers, so it gets counted as a multi-unit.
-Hank
is it still there hank ?
also is there a picture of the largest steam locomotive ever ??
i was just goin' by what dis' ol' timer guide was tellin' me !!
( you know how folkz like 2 brag ) ....like they R some big shot...
Today I saw 6 C Series Cars and a DM30 Loco #509 on the Express Track today. I saw it near the Forest Hills Station going eastbound. Is there now diesel service on weekends to Penn Station? If not then why I saw it. I saw it around 2 PM
Hunterspoint Ave, or LIC. Single units can't go to Penn.
BTW, I neighbor of mine works for the LIRR and says that for what the DE/DMs are costing the LIRR (so far), they could have electrified the damm system. He says the Kawasaki cars ride great but are technical nightmares, and the DE/DM locos just plain suck.
I believe those new engines and coaches stink as well. Also, I believe
the point of purchasing these new locos and cars should have been the introduction of push/pull service. I just saw recently 2 DM's in a
pull-pull scenario at Penn Station and my response was: "What a waste
of millions."
You figure the LIRR would have learned from its sister agency Metro-
North, and its Penn roomate NJ Transit. Simple Locos( like the FL9 &
P32-DM Genesis)should have been purchased for LIRR as well as the
Comet IV push-pull cars. Service would be much better, and less
mechanical nightmares.
As a final note, all the older diesels still running on LIRR should have had the Push-Pull interface installed in them in the first place.
IIRC correctly, on those thru trains to Penn station, the engines on each end MU with each other, technically it is not pull-pull. AMTRAK wants one on each end so that the train won't die over third rail gaps.
The DM-30's also supposedly can't pull a train out in diesel mode - they just don't have the ommph and overheat. One died this way the other week.
It's sad. The LIRR could have laid third rail down on almost all of LI for the same cost, and gotten a hell of a lot more bang per buck. Where the acountability is at the LIRR, I don't know. I just hope next time around, they don't try to repeat this assinine experiment, and just go electric like they should have THIS time around.
Dual mode technology does work, and is supposed to be cheaper. The problem is, the LIRR decided to experiment rather than go with an off-the-shelf Genesis.
Plus, I like the bilevel cars better than single-level MUs. If you want to electrify the whole system, I'd suggest buying more bilevels with electric engines.
MUs require more underfloor equipment than coaches which would eliminate the possibility of bi-levels. Electric bi-level service would have to be push-pull.
That's actually what I meant. I should have said buying more bilevels with electric locomotives...
No, just put all the equipment over head where the car isn't bi-leval. Like where the bar and Bathroom and ADA wheelchair spots are.
Dual mode technology does work, and is supposed to be cheaper. The problem is, the LIRR decided to experiment rather than go with an off-the-shelf Genesis.
The trouble being, the Genny 2 doesn't work that great either. It's a notoriously flaky locomotive, and unable to run more than a few minutes in E mode. And they're not cheap either. and GE's are slow locomotives, the last thing you want in a predominantly EMU rail system with lots of bottlenecks.
In any case, they're not cheap either, and neither were the DM-30's. The last benchmark I heard was 1 million dollars a mile of third rail. The DM fleet cost 200+ million. There's less than 200 miles of worthwhile electrification left on the LIRR. In any case, traffic demands will require it sooner ort later, since diesels can't match EMU performance at all. So why not do it now, order more MUs, and get rid of having to maintain a dual fleet anyway?
"In any case, they're not cheap either, and neither were the DM-30's. The last benchmark I heard was 1 million dollars a mile of third rail. The DM fleet cost 200+ million. There's less than 200 miles of worthwhile electrification left on the LIRR. In any case, traffic demands will require it sooner ort later, since diesels can't match EMU performance at all. So why not do it now, order more MUs, and get rid of having to maintain a dual fleet anyway?"
Not to comment on the worthiness of the electrification vs. dual mode discussion (my own opinion is to either electrify it or abandon it), but in the interest of fairness it should be noted that simply comparing the cost of the DM equipment to the cost of electrification is incomplete. To be fair, you would need to compare the cost of DM against the cost of electrification PLUS the cost of additional MU cars to serve the newly-electrified areas.
CG
(my own opinion is to either electrify it or abandon it)
I had no idea the president of SEPTA posted on this board :)
Actually, if it wasn't for undergroundness, electrification would be totally unneccessary, anywhere. Hoboken division gets along fine, the only use they've made out of electrification is two-car trains on the Gladstone Branch and trains that don't pass Summit. Any other times they run electric trains out of Hoboken it's just because they can, there's no real need for them.
Boston's 100% diesel and they get along fine as well. DC area commuter rails are also mostly diesel.
I vote we close Penn Station to commuter rail. Problems solved.
I agree with your points as respects the other commuter lines. The electrify or abandon was specific to the LIRR.
As for shutting down Penn Station to commuter rail, perhaps a nice 12 track terminal at Hunterspoint Avenue could be built. Then we could convert the existing 4 tunnels into massive high-speed moving sidewalks with exits to the east side as well as going all the way to Penn Station.
CG
Now you're talkin!
Because Kalikow will have a job at Bombardier when he retires from the MTA.
I have lived in the Huntington Area of Suffolk County for the past 26 years. Many years ago Congressman Robert Mrazek secured funding to electrify the Port Jeff branch from Huntington to PJ. As soon as the funding was announced then LIAR President Bruce McGiver proclaimed that the money would go to electrify to Ronkonkoma because 1) the flater and straighter terrain would enable the expresses to reach Penn in 60 minutes instead of the then 90 minutes (aided by the closing of some stations) and 2) the terminal at MacArthur was to be relocated to the north end of the field with either a people mover or tram system to shuttle people to Ronkonkoma so they could be in Penn shortly after their plane landed. Due to the winding and hilly track from Hunt to PJ the most they could cut would be about 10 minutes at best.
The dual mode was the political appeasement to the North Shore people. The first trains were about 8 years behind in the delivery.
In anticipation of the electrification two high level platforms were installed in Greenlawn. There is a side track that runs for about 3,000 feet from just east of Greenlawn Road to about 200 feet west of Taylor Avenue. The LIAR installed TWO high level platforms where only one low level platform is used. To date, the second platform HAS NEVER BEEN USED. Talk about a waste of money...........
Even with the dual-modes, service is now cut by 20 minutes, and not the 10 as projected. Well, the changeovers at Huntington, and Hicksville cut the running times at best of 5 to 10 minutes. More direct trains to Penn Station from Port Jeff will have to occur, but not until more slots are available when some trains go to GCT.
To date, the second platform HAS NEVER BEEN USED. Talk about a waste of money...........
Actually, that still makes it a bit cheaper for them if they decide to double-track the line. One less station to worry about. As it stands, only Northport and St. James (and Port Jefferson, but there it doesn't matter) have only one platform on the entire PJ Branch.
He says the Kawasaki cars ride great but are technical nightmares, and the DE/DM locos just plain suck.
BRING BACK THE GP38-2's!!!!!!
Seriously though, obviously the old trains had to be replaced, and even though most of the engines were freight engines, I don't think the LIRR had too much grief with them over the years. And it made for some interesting and unique railroading!
For railfans, the F's, GP38's, and MP15's were great, and the vestibuled wrecks the coaches were also. But for commuters they were rolling disasters. It's a shame that when the LIRR finally decided to replace the equipment it went for the pieces of garbage DM/DE's. The whole purchase has been a total disaster. The coaches are attractive and are comfortable, but since they are technical disasters, what good is it? And for the junky DM/DE 30's, they don't even look nice! That might be easy to accept if they ran good, but there is nothing about them that is good.
They should just ask MNRR to send over more old Fl-9s... they work! Although the electrical system problem is still present...
And I still maintain that the MNRR Fl-9s can use both third rail types, since the NHRR used to run 'em into Penn Station.
There was anouther DM30 Loco but I did not get a # for that
On the weekends due to trackwork on the Montauk branch between Valley, and Hall interlockings there are 2 eastbounds and 1 westbound to/from Patchogue, and 1 train each way to/from Speonk. Now trains to Penn Station have to utilize a DM30AC on each end to prevent gapping through the third rail in Penn Station. It could be possible to see one engine with a cab car on the west end, but it is doubtful.
It could be possible to see one engine with a cab car on the west end, but it is doubtful
Do they ever run them on the west end? I've never seen that unless there is one on each end.
That is what I meant (one on each end). I am replying to what that fellow said that he saw a 6 car train with only 1 engine and an included cab car in the mix found west of Jamaica.
To corect what I said. I did saw anouther DM30 Loco but I forgot the # but that Loco was the lead Loco to Jamaica. I just asking why I saw one past Jamaica when they don't go past Jamaica Normally on a Weekend
I wished that LIRR trains only had one locomotive on 6 car trains to Penn Station, but with the gaps, there is understanding why there is one engine on each end on Penn Station trains.
No, I understood that, I was just wondering if they ever did run on the west end, which I doubt. I wonder why they only run on the east end.
When they were first testing I saw a three car train with the engine on the west end and the cab car on the east end. I wondered why the LIRR wouldn't be going ass-first into NYC like MNRR or NJT at Hoboken. But then when I first had chance to see one in service it was in the current orientation.
To run with cab cars on the east end would have a host of complications. All the cars on the train would still have to face the same direction, due to the positioning of the conductor controls. So not only would you have to turn a cab car around, but all the cars on the train. And whenever you have to take a car out for servicing, it'd have to go back onto a train with the cab on the east end or get turned around again. Since the LIRR doesn't use loops anywhere, cars would never naturally be turned around, so may as well have them all face the same direction!
I mean, MUs always face the same direction, as all city-bound trains have odd numbered head cars while all outbound trains have even numbered head cars, and all trains have cars that alternate odd-even. No one is ever more than one car away from a bathroom.
Yep, it was cab car #5004, 2 coaches, and 400.
We have a LOT of bilevels going through the Central connection, behind Our Lady of Grace here in West Babylon - no doubt the summer schedule, due to track work. One casualty is the 8:06am MU express from Babylon; replaced by the 7:55am bilevel, via Hicksville.
wayne
Hi,
Has anyone taken any pictures in the DC Metro recently? Have there been any problems with the metro people trying to stop it? I want to go take some pictures and maybe have them put up on this site, but I want to be sure there won't be any trouble.
Thanks,
David
i think the answer is ""NO""! reason?? they are bunch of #@&*$#^**!!!
You're probably right. Remember that now, cops are above the law and chewing gum is considered terrorist activity.
he he he ...........lol...........!!................?...but ....
..maybe there is a place you can go to get a permit ...!.........??
"...cops are above the law.." Not to mention the prelates of a church to be not named, but the initials are "RC". Cardinal Lawless, Cardinal MaPhoney, plus countless others.
I have been taking picture there for years. Nobody never gave me any greif. Of course I didn't use flash and a tripod.
Bill "Newkirk"
I took a few pictures there in May. Like you, no flash or tripod. Like you, no problems.
I was there today (Sunday) and I took photos and was not given any trouble. Additionally I DID use my flash once or twice and I WAS NOT arrested. Of course, no one saw me, but whatever. The point is if you are careful and you aren't taking a photo of a train head on or the person in the booth, you can use your flash if you want. I've seen the rules about photography for the NYC subway but I haven't seen the rules for the DC Metro. BTW, the way I read the rules about photography in the NYC subway, I think that if your flash is built in to your camera and is not a seperate piece of equipment, then it is legal to be used in the NYC subway. You should still use common sense though and not use the flash to blind a T/O. or C/R.
A flash doesn't really help in the subway, anyway. Sometimes I end up with darker pictures when I use a flash (I'm really trying to figure that one out!).
<< Sometimes I end up with darker pictures when I use a flash (I'm really trying to figure that one out!). >>
Depending upon the type of camera, the aperture and shutter speed will preset when a flash is attached or (if built-in), engaged. If the object of your picture is outside the flash range, the pic will appear dark. Not using a flash means you usually use a slower shutter speed and a wider aperture.
Sometimes I end up with darker pictures when I use a flash (I'm really trying to figure that one out!).
That's an easy one. The flash is only good for about 15 or 20 feet. BUT when the camera knows that it is using a flash, it believes that the entire frame will be properly illuminated by the flash, so it acts as if it has so much light, when actually it does not.
Put the flas away and you will get better pictures.
Elias
wear a vest ?? & really get ignored ?
Thanks for your replies. I went and took my pix today. I took about 50 or 55 on the blue and yellow lines near where I live in Virginia, and I didn't have any problems. I haven't looked over them yet, but when I do I will email Mr. Pirmann about maybe having some of them put up at this site.
David
I want to ride the whole Boonton line before it closes (both ways) I figure I could go to Hackettstown, but is there anything to do there or is it like Croton-Harmon? Should I take a shorter trip (I'm in no hurry to ride past Denville, of course)?
I have been to both Dover and Denville. Dover station is in the middle of town ans there is stuff to do. According to my topo map the rail station is in the middle of Hackettstown and if it is anything like Washington NJ (the next station is the service was extended) there will be things to eat/do. Is the trip still on for Friday?
I do not know about Fridays trip and I expect a full report from you of the excursion, The trackage extends from Netcong, goes through the Village Green apartment complex in Mount Olive, picks up a siding stop in the international Trade Zone and ends in Hackettstown. Plans for extenstion rely upon recovering the Lackawanna Cut to run to Scranton, Pa. Blairstown (forgive me Mr. John Blair) objects to a station as it would bring in more 'outsiders.' The mayor of Frelinghuysen invited me to become an advisor to the transportation committee...the creamery would be an ideal stop. Just imagine me...CI Peter...fifteen years from now....as an MS2/DepSup/Sup...burning my NYC bridges and commuting on high speed rail from Warren County. Always MAKING TRAINS GO. CI Peter
I would plan on seeing service extended to Washington NJ some time soon. Its only about 5 miles down the track, the town is 1.5 times bigger than Hackettstown. It is on the busy Rt. 31 corridor and with the current sprall patterns, a station at Washington w/ a park and ride in the big former DL&W yard there is just too tempting for NJT in terms of a cost effective service improvement.
It aint 'Buddy Hacketts town' any more. Washington is crap....a new 143K foot store is being planned for Route 46 in Hackettstown after the mall development in Mansfield. P'burg ain't no bargain either...a slice of the Bronx. I'm seeing new unoccupied homes being built about my property in Frelinghuysen and nobody wants the sucky 6AM drive into NYC. CI Peter
I can't believe that people are so worried about "outsiders." These so called "outsiders" would bring in revenue to the tax rolls which would lessen the burden on older residents. People become afraid because you have poor planners who don't know or understand how to properly plan for an expanding area. There are so many commuter's who live in the Pocanoes region that are dying for a some sort of train service. Even if someone were to have some sort of limited put in place, like DMU's running 2 runs in the AM and 2 in the PM.
I had to deal with the planning/zoning boards of Frelinghuysen Township (you know where that is if you get an I-80 speeding ticket before Blairstown.) These 'upstanding citizens of record' aren't decendents of Revolutionary War Heroes' but 'dickweeds' from Joisey City and Brooklyn. They made my life miserable calling me 'an outsider.' Their secret 'enclave' is being busted by development so rapid transit is only ancilliary. Nuke em all...bring on the trains.
They're all going to retire to Florida...home of giant roaches and alligators. CI Peter
I believe that NJ Transit NE Corridor trains should be extended to 30
Street Station in Philadelphia. That way, we can connect to Atlantic
City Line trains without a hassle. The need to change to SEPTA at
Trenton is time consuming, plus you have about an hour's wait for the
next train to Atlantic City when you arrive in Philadelphia.
I have a sort of commuter rail merger scheme planned out and if you are interested in obtaining sample maps of my dream and possible
real-to-be services, e-mail me at DiNOBILI91@aol.com and I will send
at no cost at all. I want to share my vision with all commuter rail buffs. These happen to be strip maps not to scale due to space.
NJ Transit, Metro-North, and Shoreline East are available. LIRR will be available at a future date.
NJ Transit lines are done by Divisions, Metro-North and Shoreline
East are done line by line.
However, as a note, AMTRAK is not included in my new rail system. You will notice by how the rail lines are serviced.
I think the Montclair Connector is good for Midtown Direct service,
however the eastern portion of the Boonton Line should be left alone.
Commuters on the soon-to-be abandonded portion east of Montclair need
these trains.
Unfortunately, there are two bridges on that line that are in a terrible state of disrepair. NJT must have looked over the numbers and realized that from a cost-benefit standpoint, building the connection would be a better solution than fixing the bridges.
Plus, if the towns really want to keep service, they could always fork over the cash themselves to fix the bridge, since after the connection they would be the only ones benefitting from it and as it stands they're the only ones who want to keep the service running. Money could be raised through taxes or a fare surcharge...
Just heard on the news, NIMBY's have derailed the PATH Christopher st expansion. I guess getting rid of a firetrap isn't important.
Once again, those damn NIMBY's win. Too bad there aint anybody to take 'em out. :-0
Close the station entirely during the rush hour. Problem solved (or at least shifted to 9st). Then do the same at 9st.
What ever happened to "We are doing it like it or not"! Our government has lost it's balls, both state, and federal.
>>"We are doing it like it or not"!
Our government has lost it's balls, both state, and
federal. <<
"of the people, by the people and for the people"
I may agree that the current issue shuld have gone the other way, but then voters in SF demanded an end to freeway construction within the core , and insisted on removing the double deck Embarcadero Freeway which was an eyesore worthy of Moses. Now we have a PCC and vintage streetcar line instead.
Just remember that it can go the other way. Do you want the gov't building a highway even if no one wants it. Didn't think so. NIMBYs are using their right to petition gov't to the fullest extent. Thank God for them.
(Didn't think so. NIMBYs are using their right to petition gov't to the fullest extent. Thank God for them.)
Perhaps they can have an annual holiday to celebrate their victory. Erect a narrow stair, pile up some scarecrows representing trapped PATH riders at the bottom of it, and burn them.
Yeah I miss those days. But I guess most people today label that kind of progress as Communism.
No, it's called fascism.
Those days are gone because of that attitude.
-Hank
It's a PITY that government would have to do that at all ... lost completely is the attitude of the great depression, WWII, or any other situation where America had its jewels in a clamp. "The needs of the MANY outweigh the needs of the few" as put in "Star Trek" ... once upon a time, all of us carbon-based lifeforms (gack!) actually cared about others OTHER THAN OURSELVES ...
While I can understand a loss of "property value" as an issue, the government and the rest of us paying the bills COULD "make whole" those who would be disadvantaged by more pressing societal needs ... but then again, we have the Enron party as guidance, so what's in it for me? Platinum parachute? No? Well then, screw the public good.
Once upon a time, we were concerned about morality when it came to interns. Any OTHER moralities matter not. Sheesh.
You think NIMBYs are a new invention and that people in the past ALWAYS considered the public good (while of course nobody does today)? This old poster puts a bit of a crimp in that idea:
http://www.archives.gov/digital_classroom/lessons/anti_railroad_propaganda/images/propaganda_poster.gif
Being a history buff, I've always been a strong opponent of the idea of past "golden ages" or that the present is "going to hell in a handbasket." Our predecessors were not all as virtuous as SELECTIVE popular history would lead to believe, not are as many of us as unvirtuous as SELECTIVE popular news and perception would lead to believe.
nice reminder. seems to me from reading the history of the IRT on this sight there were law suits against it too.
Those people have to be arrested on Insighting riot!
Hey, John! Dropped the "Esq.," did you?
- Lyle Goldman
"Hey, John! Dropped the 'Esq.,' did you?"
Yep. I found that including my "esquire" title was hazardous on many railfan web boards. :^)
What's amusing about "Esq." is that most people think it means a LAWYER when in reality, the "Esq." means "multiple property owner" ... whoops, that could be even worse in some people's eyes. Nevermind. :)
What happened to allowing the riders who live in the vicinity of ALL other stations on that line to outvote the NIMBYs at one station?
Excuse my ignorance to this, but what is NIMBY and what is there purpose?
Not In My Back Yard!
Put your (insert project) somewhere else, but don't put it in my back yard (NIMBY).
?????? was just asking what is NIMBY, what are u talking about?
Sorry bout that, I get the message now. Thanks
Well… where there is a new project, there is a group that will scream not in my backyard (percent of the reason lines take so long to be built or updated)
He told you! NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard. It makes sense, hayna?
I realized after I post and reposted Thank You, and Thank You too (not sarcasm)
That is what NIMBY means: Not In My Backyard.
And John from Sea Cliff (Qtraindash7) has an unnatural hatred for them!!! (Will he change his tune if they decided to put a chemical plant or a homeless shelter next door to him?)
Owner occupied single family housing is the greatest waste of resources in America.
And also the greatest PROTECTOR of those resources in non-suburban settings. Lemme tell you a fast story of life OUTSIDE of Levittown. I own 7.5 acres of land with a modest house on it in a hilltown outside of Smallbany. On this 7.5 acres, about 5 of them are heavily wooded (when I bought it, 2 were) ... no chemicals on the lawn that exists, it's actually MEADOW with bunnies and woodchucks and chipmunks and skunks. Wildlife thrives here (though I despise the Bambis for eating our expensive plantings) and the increase in trees helps to supply a little bit more oxygen for NYC when there's a northerly wind compared to when I moved in.
We live next to a major power line to the city (no NIMBY's here, we've agreed to let it have more wires so you guys can have lights if only the a$$holes in Westchester will approve of it also), we have prisons, power plants and things that people down in the city and its environs simply won't allow.
Now I'll grant you that SUV Suburban living is as anti-earth as it gets. But please don't lump ALL of us "homeowners" into the same ball of twine. Some of us CARE and are doing something about suburban sprawl by making our OWN paid-for land "forever wild" and contributing to the air supply and other things good by eschewing pollutive pressures and "giving back to the land" ... but I doubt many folks who are NIMBYs could be self-sufficient, hunt and gather, take CARE of their woods and live on $8,000-$10,000 a year, take care of our neighbors and their needs and do our part to make sure that bad people don't get south of here from the Canadian border to do the city harm.
John, I respect you, but PLEASE don't lump me in with those damned republican "soccer moms" ... :)
Everythings gonna die sometime or later.
My family has 81 acres of forever wild land. Originally cow/sheep pasture with badly rocky soil, it has grown in the 100 years to a thick forest with %40 swamp (if you don't have misqueto repelent you will want to freze you legs in ice, (70 bites on 2 legs in 3 hours)). There is a area that is clear with a trailer for some poor reletives of us. There is a septic tank + electric + telephone + well water (rural, no gas). There was once a 16 (maybe more) room bed and brekfast style house that was burned down by arson in 1978. There was a disgruntled gentleman that threatend volience and harased if we wouldn't sell the property to him; for 2 years before it burned down. Before my parents in 1963, bouaght it; it was a bed & brekfast in WW1 and WW2, it closed in the early 50's under the last owners.
Actually, even more protective of the resources (though not so great for the local economy) is absentee ownership of land. Greene County (just south of Albany county, where most of the highest Catskill Mts are, and also Hunter and Windham Ski areas) has over 50% of its privately held land owned by non-residents.
There are more trees there than there have been in 150 years, since the hemlock trees were first cut down for their bark to tan leather.
The permanent residents would love a higher density with more economic activity, but the low density sure helps the enivronment. It also allows NYC to get by without filtering Catskill water.
(Greene County (just south of Albany county, where most of the highest Catskill Mts are, and also Hunter and Windham Ski areas) has over 50% of its privately held land owned by non-residents. The permanent residents would love a higher density with more economic activity, but the low density sure helps the enivronment.)
Higher density is better for the environment, if combined with land preservation elsewhere. Sprawl in the Hudson Valley is something I think about quite a bit, because I love the area but have to drive further and further out of Brooklyn to find something of value.
If they allowed Brooklyn-type densities in targeted "town" settings to developers who purchased development rights on other land elsewhere and turned it over to the state, than the same number of people could be accomodated on much less land. As it is, its two to five acre lots over the whole landscape -- not very transit friendly. My kids will take their kids apple picking in Washignton County at this rate.
Perhaps what was meant is that a high population density in the cities allows us to keep population densities in the countryside low enough to still be considered rural and not suburban, low enough as to have minimal impact on natural ecosystems. Maybe?
Mark
As it is, its two to five acre lots over the whole landscape -- not very transit friendly. My kids will take their kids apple picking in Washignton County at this rate.
The large acreage zone sounds good on the surface, but actually is harder on the landscape than let's say cluster building. Like mentioned, if you build citylike conditions and really build in one area, while leaving other vast areas open, at least you still have open space. WIth 2-5 acre zoning over an entire area, every one needs a car, it's harder to bring in transit, and the entire area is built on, as opposed to only a portion. Tourists and other people don't come to an area to see 5 acre estates, they come for the rural open feel. That rural open feel is harder and harder to find with suburban sprawl.
I think the distinction we have to draw is that its one thing to own twenty acres of land that you farm or leave as unspoiled habitat, and quite another to turn a large parcel of land into a mowed-grass backyard. The former is good and keeps countryside from becoming suburbia. The latter leads to sprawl.
Mark
20 acres of mowed grass isn't that bad either. It's the 2 acres per plot that leads to enough density that the roads get choked with traffic, but not enough density to support any kind of transit.
So then maybe we could say that the ideal is to have our cities be cities and our country be country, and not try to mix them together in a sprawl that tries to be both and succeeds at being neither.
Mark
"So then maybe we could say that the ideal is to have our cities be cities and our country be country, and not try to mix them together in a sprawl that tries to be both and succeeds at being neither. "
That's the ideal of many of us city dwellers, but unfortunately not the ideal of most of the American public.
Yeah, we want to have it both ways, city and country life all in one, and end up with something that has the worst of both: The hassles and traffic of a big city with the inconvenience and isolation of living in the sticks.
Mark
SOME of us chose the sticks and thumb our noses at both urban sprawl and suburban motor idling. We sit up here among the pines, sipping our pina colonics all day giggling at the sirens in the distance, knowing that the MTA commuter line will NEVER make it out here, not even a hundred years from now.
Don't get me wrong, I like the sticks just fine. What I meant is that sprawling suburbs give the drawbacks of urban living and the drawbacks of rural living, without giving the benefits of either. Sorry if I sounded like I was down on the country. (I lived in rural Mississippi myself for over a decade!)
I think sprawl is a threat to both the health of cities and the ruralness of the countryside, two things which are both worth preserving.
Mark
Couldn't possibly agree more. Once you shake off the "Gristede's on every corner" mindset, you find that life among the trees is soothing and far more real than being an "SUV soccer mom." What's sad is that I used to live in New Paltz, then it got a bit too hairy, moved up to Rosendale, got too "low rent" and new houses going up everywhere, and then moved up to SELKIRK ... which is expanding like frigging East MUDHOLE, finally said "fook this, I can see the writing on the wall and it's surveyor's BENCHMARKS" and decided to buy me some trees. :)
The land I bought years ago had been intended to be subdivided into four "lots" and was taxed accordingly. As soon as I took possession, I wrote away the ability for this property to be zoned and let the trees come back in (along with the honeysuckle, wine grapevines, and all else wild around here) ... since I own an entire hilltop, not too worried about encroachment and many of the trees I planted have reached maturity. The remainder are growing like sum'bitchers ... I figure the more foliage I put between me and the power lines that head south of here on the far western edge of my property the better.
But one big happy Wal*Mart mall is *not* my idea of sanity. I moved away from the city to get AWAY from the "push-push-push" and am lucky to live in an area of like-minded people. There's a moratorium on construction in our little village of 3200 souls BECAUSE all of the land on which sprawl could occur is already OWNED. And NONE of us want our rural setting to change, therefore it won't happen here. Yay. :)
Owner occupied single family housing is the greatest waste of resources in America.
For "America" read "the civilised world".
That depends on the size of the house, and the size of the yard. In an urban setting, like my own Philadelphia for example, increasing homeownership has been shown as a very effective way to stablize neighborhoods and fight urban decay. Here in Philadelphia this usually means a single family row house or twin with a very modest yard. I know that this is not the case in most of America, but we should specify that single familiy homes with very large yards carved out of what once was wilderness or farmland is a huge waste of the earth's resources.
Mark
Good point! And something else "apartment dwellers" just don't get (although this would WORK for them as well) is that "property owners" take a MUCH greater stake in their community than people who could just as easily "rent another dump" when confronted with street crime. When homeowners in urban areas have a STAKE in their COMMUNITY, they don't take no crap.
HOMEOWNERS will sit on the stoop, and where a neighborhood is ON the street, criminals find a "shadier spot" ... one of the MAJOR reasons for the improvement in the Bronx is because of townhouses and single/dual/triple family residences instead of highrise slums. Even in an URBAN environment, there's something to be said for "single/dual family housing" over the warehousing of the poor ...
Out in the country where I live, ALL of us our stewards of our community. If I were to put crap on my lawn, my neighbor could end up DRINKING it (hello, Long Island as Lloyd Lindsay Young used to say at the beginning of his weather forecasts on WWOR-9 years back) ... so for all the highrise whiners that play NIMBY, SOME of us CARE ... and do the right thing, for the betterment of everybody.
Then there's the selfish bastards (and a political environment that SHAFTS those who want to do the right thing) who screw with the needs of the many. Let them have Worldcom/Harken Energy/ Halliburton stock. The Laissez Fairy has spoken and a pox on them all. :)
Good point! And something else "apartment dwellers" just don't get (although this would WORK for them as well) is that "property owners" take a MUCH greater stake in their community than people who could just as easily "rent another dump" when confronted with street crime. When homeowners in urban areas have a STAKE in their COMMUNITY, they don't take no crap.
Substitute "long-term residents" for "property owners" and I agree. Long-term residents naturally care about where they live; temporary residents often don't. Whether they own or rent is irrelevant.
Yeah, but if you don't have to eat a huge cash loss like those of us upstate would have to to move out of Podunk, it's a whole LOT easier to cash in your chips and say "to hell with that stupid baseball stadium that Joe Bruno bought" that means we can't afford to pay our taxes.
If you think Joe Bruno shafted NYC over rent control, you should SEE the mass exodus upstate as a result of the new taxes we have to pay. Nobody's playing long-term ANYMORE with Paturkey and Bruno and the Enronpublicans shafting the entire state this year ... and watch all the bastards get re-elected. Upstate has gone completely to hell in the last six months and people ARE abandoning their property.
Want to see the South Bronx reincernated? It's called SCHENECTADY. Things are so desperate, they hijacked a busload of Queens residents who came from Guiana BEGGING them to move to Schenectady! If you think NYC's in trouble, well ... you ought to see how screwed up things are here in Bruno/WALMART land. And Bruno's been looting the CITY (which is why YOUR taxes are about to go through the roof) to pay for his trailer park county while running UNOPPOSED ...
Don't mind me, life in upstate NYS truly sucks lately with these Enron bastards ...
Renting is by nature a transient form of dwelling, since you're subject to rent hikes that would never happen if you own your facility (be it a home, condo or co-op), making it highly inefficient to expect to live for more than 10 years in a rental.
The thing that made people think that they could live forever in a rental are the SCAMS known as rent control and rent stabilization.
Certain types of dwelling simply are very hard to find except in the rental market. Anybody who wants to live in that type of dwelling and isn't lucky enough to find one for sale has little choice but to rent, whether with the assistance of rent control or without.
But you didn't address my point, in any case. There are long-term renters, even if you don't think they should exist. They have just as much of an interest in their communities as long-term homeowners. Similarly, someone who buys a house for two years and then sells it and moves out has just as little interest in the community as someone who rents for two years and leaves. What matters is how long he lives in the community, not under what terms he has access to his dwelling.
They should transform rental units into full ownership partnerships.
Would you be thinking of Condos and Co-ops? The residents in those buildings have a big stake in their neighborhood. Besides not everyone is cut out to be a home owner. Remember that home owner means home repairer and some folks don't choose to go that route.
Intersting, that I was the first in this thread to champion homeownership, but I myself don't own my home. I'm not sure I'm ready to be a homeowner, or if I ever will be considering the prices of houses in my West Philadelphia neighborhood. I've always rented my homes, and I've always taken good care of them, painting and fixing and doing other odd jobs myself rather than calling the landlord, just because it's faster and because I take pride in my home, whether or not I own it.
I do feel a certain stability knowing the family that owns my house also lives right below me. They're good friends of my fiance, both households are committed to the neighborhood, though, even though I'm a renter and they're homeowners. I think this sort of relationship between neighbors, between the owner and the renter, is also of importance to neighborhood stability.
But I still feel that homeownership has a role to play in neighborhood stability. That's why organizations like Habitat for Humanity seek first and foremost to get people into homes they own. There is security in knowing you won't be kicked out of your home because your landlord decides that there are more profitable uses for the property.
I also think it might be useful to make a distinction between New York City and the rest of North America. Outside of New York, people aren't as willing to rent long term. When they want to settle down, they want to buy a home. Redlining forced people to buy in the suburbs. I think it's important to urban health that homeownership be available as an option to city dwellers.
Mark
Can't you guy's shut up on saying bad thing about Qtraindash7. He's a nice guy and should not say anything bad about him
The PA is looking for FEMA funding. FEMA has said that it will take them 3 month to decide, and they will take the inerests of the community into account.
Maybe they will totally derail it, but it hasn't happened yet. PATH commuters who have to wait 15 minutes to get into the Christopher street station in the PM rush had better show up at whatever hearing FEMA holds if they want any improvement.
It seems that the heavy ridership due to 9/11 is a cause for the additional exit at Christopher St. But is the real reason that there is only one way to exit this station in the event of an emergency or terror attack.
Are there any laws on the books dealing with extra subway exits giving passengers options to exit in the event of an emergency ?
Bill "Newkirk"
So you're telling me these people would rather restore the integrity of a "historical area" than help extinguish a possible fire hazard? This sounds like those people who ignore a safety concern only for their own selfish good. God forbid there's a fire at Christopher Street.
Well, it's not exactly an expansion. It was classic, stupid NIMBY, I agree with you.
The larger entrance would have been useful, but as soon as the WTC line reopens, it'll be a moot issue.
I was shooting at del mar near the pasadena freeway when a manager came running up to me and ordered me to stop shooting pictures of the construction at the intersection !!!
...this is the gold line pasadena to downtown LA construction....
I told him i was not trying to frame up anybody and that i was just shooting construction once in a lifetime opp. pictures .
He told me i have to have construction boots , helmet and LA MTA id !
( which i do own with my dumb ass ) ..............lol ...!!
I agreed with him 100% shook his hand and said i was sorry i was not in proper uniform !! & wont do this again !!
You know he was 100% right folks !!! see ??..we can all get along !!
did not feel bad at all bout' dis whatsoever !!next time git' it right
!!! oh well ....lol !!
Pasadena? Are you talking about those tracks that run across the main road through Pasadena? When I was in Pasadena two years ago, I saw them working on something like that.
yep that is the GOLD LINE which will run into union station downtown los angeles a historical landmark ( transfer 2 the red line )
which we call "the subway 2 nowhere" ....!!!...........lol...!!
["which we call "the subway 2 nowhere" ....!!!...........lol...!!"]
No offense, but to us New Yorkers ALL of Las Ange California is nowhere!!!
>>> to us New Yorkers ALL of Las Ange California is nowhere <<<
It is interesting to see how much New Yorkers have broadened their perspective. It used to be that anything on the other side of the Hudson was considered nowhere. :-)
Tom
It is!!!
"...we call 'the subway 2 nowhere...'" Who is this "WE"? There is only one person in Los Angeles that uses that phrase. Go to the Red Line platform at 7th/Metro/Julian Dixon station at 5:00pm on a weekday and observe the throngs headed for "nowhere".
More importantly, did you get any photos of the Gold Line construction? I, for one, would like to see them.
>>> He told me i have to have construction boots , helmet and LA MTA id ! <<<
That sounds like you were in a hard hat area, not on a public walkway, and it was just being there, not taking pictures that they were objecting to.
Tom
right !! actually i felt like a fool !! & he had me dead 2 right !!!
he he he he he he he .........lol !!!
The manager was 'dead to rights' as a safety matter. One of my supervisors routinely goes after vendors on our #5 New Tech trainsets. Everyone wears the hard hat and safety shoes (our shoes are proofed at 600 VDC when new) but some are lax about safety glasses. Eye injuries are easy to get and are the most painful to receive. SalaamAllah: try to stay out of trouble. CI Peter
oh yea ........he had me DEAD 2 RIGHT !!
& i admitted it right 2 his face .............lol !!
Good for you....hope you learned a lesson. Next time you will be prepared IF you do something careless and pleeeese don't look like something 'Arabic.' My handle isn't 'OnTheJuice' for nothing...the real work of a working car inspector is serious and dangerous. A stubborn classmate touched carbody with the Big Bug several weeks ago and we're still tweeking the grapevine to see if the guy is alive and unfried. Allah Akbar...God is Good and God is Great. We give the Grace, we do our best and we keep the Faith. CI Peter
["A stubborn classmate touched carbody with the Big Bug several weeks ago..."]
You said that in another post too. What does that mean?
"...we can all get along !!" Tell that to a certain officer on the Inglewood police force on administrative leave.
Incidentally, do you have any photos of the Gold Line construction to be posted? I'm sure SubTalk people are interested; I know I am. I'm sorry I didn't take pictures of the early Disney Hall construction. I am fascinated by the steel framing, as it reminds me of elevated structures.
I am fascinated by the steel framing, as it reminds me of elevated structures.
Then you must have loved the old Penn Station! There the steal was permanently exposed. Although you didn't have to love steal framing to love Penn Station, I do and I never stepped foot in the old building....
Yes I do, although, unfortunately, I never passed through it in real life. I revel in its beauty only through books, of which I have a number. "Manhattan Gateway" by William D. Middleton is excellent. I was in San Francisco over the July 4th weekend and picked up a new book, "New York's Pennsyvania Stations" by Hilary Ballon (Norton, ISBN 0-393-73078-6). It covers construction, demolition, and the new proposal for the station. It's a bit pricey, but well worth it. Just consider, what would it be worth to you to spend time in the original Penn Station?
For you nitpickers, it's "Pennsylvania". I meant to mention also that we have Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis to thank for the fact that Grand Central Terminal didn't suffer the same fate as Penn Station.
Yes, and thank goodness it was saved "at the last minute" It's bad enough NY lost one of it's great stations. Both would have been a total tragedy. If Penn would have lasted a few more years, it too probably would have been noticed. It just got caught in the 60's "out with the old, in with the new" mentality. In one of the books it was mentioned that a building's life goes through cycles. (This may be quoted a little wrong, but it's close) When it's new everyone admires it as it's new and spectacular. After a while it blends in, is taken for granted, and then slowly becomes an "eyesore". This is the most dangerous time for a building. If it can survive through this period, before it gets rediscovered, it will survive, like Grand Central did. Unfortunately, Penn did not. If Penn had survived, can you imagine what it would look like again! It would have been renovated by now, and have been a gem, and almost a tourist attraction. Just look at the great job they did on Grand Central. Penn would have even been better.
Yes, yes, yes. I couldn't agree more.
Penn was lost either way. It was the reason behind the landmark laws, which allowed the saving of GCT, as well as many other grand stations across the US. Once the US Supreme court declared the lane in NY constitutional, laws in other areas followed. Look at Penn Station as the one that died for the benefit of the many.
-Hank
Look at Penn Station as the one that died for the benefit of the many.
You're absolutely right, Hank, but it's painful nonetheless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's exactly what I was thinkuing when I read that.
If I could choose any lost building to spend a few hours in it would be Penn Station. I like Grand Central, and am glad it's still around as it is a spectacular building, but I think Penn probably blew it away. I have the Manhattan Gateway book, along with one written by Lorraine Diehl, which is also pretty good. I have to look into the other one you mentioned.
I was lucky to have been there many times in my youngers days..all I can see is it had no equal on this continent.Even NY City's Grand Central couldn't touch it for awesome beauty. Now "Penn" is an overgrown subway station. Some subway stations have more to offer.
Could they move MCS to the spot where Penn is right now?
MCS was a terminal station, not set up for through trains. It too was a magnificent building; I don't remember it, except from pictures, although I was there a couple of times as a small child. But Penn Station was the grandest of them all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where is the original Penn Station? Also, where is the rotunda and the concourse in Penn Sta?
Where is the original Penn Station?
Dumped in the New Jersey Meadowlands.
Also, where is the rotunda and the concourse in Penn Sta?
Well the Knicks play in the old steal and glass concourse, so to speak. MSG is on the site. The floor of the old concourse is still the area where people board for Amtrak. Of course the low ceiling becomes MSG's floor.
Here's a link to some photos of Penn Station in it's darkest hour, when it was being demolished. Does someone know of a link to some photos of Penn in it's "good days"?
Destruction of Penn Station
ok, ive seen pics of the old penn station and im just in amazement!
how could a city allow the destruction of something like penn station to build MGS??????
such a piece of this cities history was just destroyed as if it was a mistake....
i dont know, this city is something else lolololol
True it was indeed a travesty to tear down the old Penn Station, and reduce it to being nothing more than the basement of "MSG"....."MSG", not "MGS"... lol :-) But yes who knows what the city was thinking, and to be honest none of us in this lifetime would ever be able to understand what the city's "higher powers" (heh!!) think. Hopefully it'll be made up for when the new Penn Station is built out of the Farley building across the street. Looking at the design and architecture, I wonder why it was never Penn Station all along instead of being a mail facility.
>>> Looking at the design and architecture, I wonder why it was never Penn Station all along instead of being a mail facility. <<<
Why it was never Penn Station all along?? It was where it was to be near Penn Station. In a day when the vast majority of intercity mail arrived and departed by rail, and hand sorting without machines (or even zip codes) and two or three deliveries a day were the rule (all for 3¢ an ounce), it was absolutely necessary to have a huge postal facility very close to the major railroad station. Since it was right next to Penn Station, it was natural that the architecture would complement Penn Station.
Tom
Just as the mammoth Main Post Office in Chicago sits astride the platforms of Union Station with a direct connection. I worked for the Chicago Post Office for eight years, and the occasional assignment to the building's bowels wasn't pleasant, particularly in the winter.
>>> Just as the mammoth Main Post Office in Chicago sits astride the platforms of Union Station with a direct connection <<<
And of course you remember when Terminal Annex in Los Angeles was the biggest post office in town. It has been sold and is no longer a postal facility.
Tom
Hm. I think the platforms of 30th Street Station in Philadelphia extend partly under the main post office. I've seen mail cars on Amtrak trains, usually the Carolinian and Twilight Shoreliner. However, the post office is across Market Street from the station, so I guess if they attach mail cars to a train, it's at the very rear going north, and at the very front going south.
BTW, exactly how do Amtrak trains get from Penn Station to the alignment alongside the Hudson River in NY (heading towards Albany). I don't recall Grand Central trackage connecting with Penn Station trackage, though I was very young when I last went to NYC by rail.
If they are coming from Philadephia, they enter NY Penn Station. It travels light to Sunnyside Yard. Make the loop and return to Penn Station to pick up customers. After the train leaves Penn, it makes a right hand turn and goes up the West Side of Manhattan into the Bronx and all the way to Albany.
... how do Amtrak trains get from Penn Station to the alignment alongside the Hudson River in NY...
There is a tunnel from Penn Station, opened about 1991, that connects NYP to the west side line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Once upon a time...
NYC (New York Central System.... remember them)
built a terminal in NYC (New York City)....
Called it GCT (Grand Central Terminal)
Hudson line trains would come down the river line and make a sharp left turn at Spuyten Dyvil (It means "Spitting Devil") to Marble Hill, and thence joining the Harlem line for the run down Park Avenue to GCT.
But there, at Spuyten Dyvil there was a "turn-bridge" mostly left open for boats to pass, but could be closed to let a freight train down the West Side Line and eventually the old "High Line" that others had been yapping about, ending in the middle of a meat market.
PRR never connected to this line, only NYC.
So one day many years ago, I was on a ride around Manhattan on the Circle Lion, and I saw them working on that old swing bridge... Darn, said I to myself, they are going to tear that thing out.
But No! Low and Behold! they were fixing it for Amtrak to use. Now Metro-Norths continue to hang a left at Spuyten Dyvil, and head over for GCT via Marble Hill, but AMTK swings the bridge, and crosses over to the old West Side Line, and through the tunnels they go. They keep the diesels running through the tunnel, for it is well ventilated, but then there is new trackage (with bright sodium vapor lighting), and they cut the diesel and drop the shoes, gliding into NYP on the third rail. This connection was made at the same time as some additionnal LIRR layup yards in the station.
So.... No Connection to GCT, there needs not be. The come down on the west, and MN has GCT to themselfs (for now) while all of AMTK shares NYP with LIRR and NJT.
And to make a short story long, *that* is how it was done.
Elias
Thank you, all three of you. I guess they use the West Side Line to access the line out to New Haven also. Seriously, why did they wait so long to add the connection from NYP to the Hudson Line, and how exactly do they reach the New Haven branch from NYP? None of the maps I have give much detail on Amtrak/LIRR/Metro-North/NJT, even the 1995 NYC Subway map I own.
BTW, a question regarding Union Station, Washington DC. Why does it seem like the track numbers jump from 10 (stub track for northbound-only or terminating/MARC trains) to 22 (through track for Virgina/Carolina/Georgia/Florida service and VRE) Or have I been missing Tracks 11 through 21 every time I visit DC?
Thrid Rail into NYP? Used by Amtrak? Now I brin up a question: does Metro-North or LIRR use Diesel, overhead wire, third rail, or a mix of any or all of the three? I've seen third rail at what look to be Metro-North stations while on the way to visiting friends in Hartsdale (we were traveling by car, btw).
Lastly, what MTA subway yards are located in upper Manhattan/South Bronx? I've seen one off one of the freeways. (I think it was Major Deegan Expressway, again, we were headed to Hartsdale, thus heading north)
>>>Lastly, what MTA subway yards are located in upper Manhattan....?<<<
The 207th Street Yard is most likely the one you saw.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I guess they use the West Side Line to access the line out to New Haven also."
No. See belo.
"Seriously, why did they wait so long to add the connection from NYP to the Hudson Line"
Money. Evidently the new connection into Penn tunnels under a building foundation. I recall it cost $100 million.
"how exactly do they reach the New Haven branch from NYP?"
LIRR tunnels into Queens, split off northward at the Sunnyside yard, viaduct through Astoria onto the Hellgate Bridge, through the east Bronx on the former New Haven Railroad line, join with the Metro North New Haven line in New Rochelle.
"does Metro-North or LIRR use Diesel, overhead wire, third rail, or a mix of any or all of the three?"
Overhead wire from Pelham to New Haven on the New Haven Line. New Havin Line equipment supports both overhead and third rail.
Third rail from GCT to Pelham, from GCT to Brewster North (?) on the Harlem Line, and from GCT to Croton Harmon (?) on the Hudson line.
All other (i.e., the branches and the far north ends) is diesel; most locomotives have both diesel and third rail so they can go straight into GCT without a need to change equipment or trains.
I'm sure others will correct me if I've made a few mistakes as to the extent of electrification.
I passed through what was left of Penn Station on July 20, 1965 en route to the World's Fair. The only thing I can remember is the booming announcer's voice over the loudspeakers. I can't recall seeing any signs of demolition. Apparently the Concourse was still intact in 1965, so I am assuming that was where we waited for our train back to Linden that evening. It left on Track 2.:-)
On a brighter note, I rode on the subway for the very first time the following day and rest is history. My father told us on the LIRR train back to Penn that we would be going to the Empire State Building and pointed it out through the train window.
oh well next year or so these will be running to union station downtown los angeles hooooorrrraaayyy !!!...........lol !!!
actually it will be the siemens P 2000 type (s) not the shayro pictured here ............lol !!!
PHOTO TAKEN AT THE LONG BEACH YARDS BY ...........you know who !!!
Next time show up in uniform, soldier! ;-)
whats you re favorite subway car
The R-33mainlines. Those are the best I think and half of them dispite their age look great! They also run very well too. So whats yours?
My current favorites are the Slant 40's, the R-32's and the R-68's. They are currently running on a line that, well, I think you know all about from me.
Slant R40's. They are unique. I'll miss them when they are gone. (Not very comfortable to sit on though!)
For the 3127958789357th time:
r-22
r-26/28/29/33/62
R1-9s ------ Red Birds
Red Birds ---R1-9s
I can't make up my mind.
How can you not make up your mind? NOTHING compares to the R1-9's. NOTHING
HAHA.. a matter of opinion...although I happen to agree.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Sarge, you have been out in the sun too long. Nothing compares to the "D" Types, my beloved Triplexes.
I have only had two extended trips on the subway, and yet on one of those trips I saw more of the inside of the IRT cars than I ever care to see. On one day before Mememorial Day I went up to NY with two other friends. After lunch at Unos on South Street Seaport, we bought our tickets, walked up south street under the FDR, and eventually wound up at Brooklyn Bridge on the 4,5,6. We were heading for times square anyway, so we headed down. An R142 6 train was waiting for us, actually it wasn't, it was trying to leave, but people were holding doors, and so, in this confusion, my one (male) friend darted onto the train, leaving myself and my other friend (female) standing on the platform screaming for him to get off at Grand Central (he didn't hear, and got off at Canal). We caught the next 6 north, went right by him, and rode up to GC. After that we spent nearly 3 hours looking for him, we rode the Shuttle, the 7, and the 6, catching R62s and R142s mostly, thinking that he had gotten off at at GC. We were later reunited at the WTC, and caught an #5 R33 north to 59th. Perhaps it was just that we were all back together or something, but it was one of the most enjoyable rides on the subway I have had. R33 8825 (It's in the background, #board visible) whipped us from Bowling green to 59th street in the time that the R142s on the 6 took BB-GC. And the best was the look on my friends faces (not railfans), for this was far removed from the PATCO, the car was noisy, yet not crowded, and man did it move!
Sorry about the story, I think I may have even told it before, I feel like I'm on Who wants to be a millionare or something. Oh well, g'night.
LOW VS !!- HIGH VS !! R1-9s !!
& all pre world war 2 stock !!!!!
yessssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!
No Standards???
IRT LoVs (with the IND R1-9s as a distant second).
A Distant second? Not a close second? And how about the standards?
Jeff,
I grew up in the East Bronx the only line I knew growing up was the Pelham Bay line, the Dyre Avenue line and the White Plains Road line and the 3rd Av El (Bronx section).
The IND R1/9 are distant 2nd because I rarely rode them as a child except when visiting my grandparents and they took me downtown from upper Manhattan (they lived 2 blocks away from the Broadway line but preferred walking to the A train).
As for the standards, I didn't even know they existed until my mid-teens. By that time they were almost retired. I knew very little about the BMT until then.
Well, at least you like the pre-war trains.
So I guess you would like this trainset!!! (with my son Arthur at Branford)
Actually I do.
Tell me, has Arthur qualified on either of those cars yet
To be perfectly honest with you I haven't even qualified on 'em yet. As a volunteer operator I only am qualified for the trolleys and only operate the subway cars on member's days. But at least on the trolleys its pretty much the same controls and the sounds are pretty much the same.
Mines would have to be the R-44/46 & R-143.
............!!!!!!!!!oooooooo mannnnnn!!!!!!
I REALLY LIKE THE R46! IT FAST! IT HAD SELECTIVE SPEED SERVICE AND USED TO GO 65MPH ALL THE TIME (SUCK ON THAT IRT FANS!!!)!!! IT SO FAST THAT IT COLLIDE WITH OTHER TRAINS AND THEY HAD TO MAKE THEM SLOW. PLUS, IT COUZIN THE R44 WENT OVER 80 MPH, AND THOSE TRAINS RUN ON GOOD EXPRESS RUNS IN QUEENS AN DBROOKLYN!!!!! I HAVE TO GO AND MOP UP DROOL NOW!!!! BYE!!!!!
And I thought it was the female T/O operating it!
My favorite is the Toronto T-1 car. I like the brushed aluminum body, and the classic styling (even though I like modern designs, too.) I also like the SEPTA Broad Street Subway's big orange Kawasakis. I have a soft spot for the PATCO equipment, too.
Mark
The IRT Low-V's without a doubt. And the BMT Standards a close second.
my top 5
1. R-33,36 wf
2. R-32
3. R-40 slant
4. R-68a
5. R-143(even though ive yet to be on one they look cool)
All-time: tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s.
Current: R-32s, R-38s, slant R-40s, Redbirds.
Who has some good stories about drunks they've seen on the subway? This happened last friday, pretty funny:
I was on a Doraville train around 11:30 pm, we got to Civic Center and this drunk guy gets on and mumbles "Happy New Year" and, of course, he has to sit next to me. He tries to shake my hand and goes "Hi, Happy New Year." He does the same thing to the person across from him. Then he comes back to me, tries to shake my hand again and says "Hi, I'm James Brown, famous musician, Happy New Year." Then, he gets up and shouts "Merry Christmas! Have a happy New Year!" No one paid attention except some little girls who started giggling. Then the guys goes "What? It's Christmas every day!" We got to the next station and he got off.
Well, there's always the guy who pissed on the third rail on the CTA Ravenswood line some years back...
-- David
Chicago, IL
At 30th street station on the MFL, i was waiting for a train, when I see several enibriated people coming down to the nearly abandoned Trolley platforms, they're screaming about how they have to get to the Patco, which you can only access by the MFL, as I was doing. It was getting late on a weekend, and train service wasn't at it's peak, so there was a considerably wait.
During this time they continue to consume alchohol and scream about how they're going to Haddonfield. Finally one of them screams "Naked!" and begins to strip, soon the other two are joining in. The fully naked woman attracts a crowd on the MFL platform, and her two partially clothed accomplices (one man, one woman) carry on with their drinking, they race up and down the platform, but then the fully naked woman runs out onto the tracks for the trolley, I'm thinking this is it for her, a trolley will come into the station and not see her, shes a goner.
Then, in one of the fastest actions by the Philly Police I have ever seen, five officers come down the stairs, grab the naked track-stander, and then cuff her accomplices. I do not know what happened, they were marched upstairs and I really didn't want to go gawk (unlike the rest of the MFL platform), I caught the next train about 2 minutes later.
Why don't I ever have such luck? Hopefully she was well endowed and had some handles.I don't mean the HANDCUFFS. Anywat on a festive night in mid-Manhattan two drunks who were hanging out together got separated. One drifted into the subway with the crowd and managed to get to the platforms without paying a fare.I don't know what happened in between but a few hours later still smashed he was reunited with his friend.His first comment was " I was down in some guys basement and you ought to see the trains HE has"
I also saw one on SEPTA...there was a guy on the MFL one morning who was drinking a beer form a can, and kept toasting everyone who looked at him with the words "breakfast of champions!" Another time at 30th street while waiting for a trolley another inebriated fellow started giving me and my fiance a lecture on his view of American history.
Mark
Stages Of Drunkenness
Stage 1 - SMART
This is when you suddenly become an expert on every subject in the known
Universe. You know you know everything and want to pass on your knowledge to
anyone who will listen. At this stage you are always RIGHT. And of course
the person you are talking to is very WRONG. This makes for an interesting
argument when both parties are SMART.
Stage 2 - GOOD LOOKING
This is when you realize that you are the BEST LOOKING person in the entire
bar and that people fancy you. You can go up to a perfect stranger knowing
they fancy you and really want to talk to you. Bear in mind that you are
still SMART, so you can talk to this person about any subject under the sun.
Stage 3 - RICH
This is when you suddenly become the richest person in the world. You can
buy drinks for the entire bar because you have an armored truck full of
money parked behind the bar. You can also make bets at this stage, because
of course, you are still SMART, so naturally you win all your bets. It
doesn't matter how much you bet 'cos you are RICH. You will also buy drinks
for everyone that you fancy, because now you are the BEST LOOKING person in
the world.
Stage 4 - BULLET PROOF
You are now ready to pick fights with anyone and everyone especially those
with whom you have been betting or arguing. This is because nothing can hurt
you. At this point you can also go up to the partners of the people who you
fancy and challenge to a battle of wits or money. You have no fear of losing
this battle because you are SMART, you are RICH and hell, you're BETTER
LOOKING than they are anyway!
Stage 5 - INVISIBLE
This is the Final Stage of Drunkenness. At this point you can do anything
because NO ONE CAN SEE YOU. You dance on a table to impress the people who
you fancy because the rest of the people in the room cannot see you. You are
also invisible to the person who wants to fight you. You can walk through
the street singing at the top of your lungs because no one can see or hear
you and because you're still SMART you know all the words.
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable...
wayne
That's the 13th stage of drunkenness ... when you build a soapbox and USE it. :)
No, actually, it's the first step.
wayne
So what you're saying then is the "12 step program" is actually a spiral staircase? :)
I've gotten to stage 1, I spent a good 20 minutes explaining Physics to my friends while they just stared at me. I usually skip the rest and go straight to Invisible. When I'm really wasted I act about as retarded as one can get, then I pass out.
I like to explain physics to people completely sober. I guess that's why I'm a science teacher.
Anybody got any ideas for using subways to teach science?
Mark
Let's see, this should make instant railfans:
1. Find the friction coefficent of:
a. A person slipping on Vomit
b. A person slipping on Urine
c. Drool from a railfan sliding down the railfan window
2. Find the force produced by the lungs after shouting "f**k off" to a panhandler.
3. What is the resistance in the wires of the intercom system when the Conductor annouces that, "We will be held for two hours?"
4. How much heat is produced by the passengers when they hear the above annoucement?
5. Using the given position v. time graph and equation, find the velocity and acceleration equations for a person jumping a turnstile. Also, find at what time and height is where his vertical velocity is zero.
6. Using the Kinematic equations, determine the time it takes for a R40 to fall off Smith/9th and into the Gowanus Canal.
7. How fast does a 7 train need to move in order to crash into the 42st lower level?
8. How much time does it take NIMBYs to organize a protest once they hear the news of a useful transit project? At what velocity will they be at? Assume 5 sec. reaction time.
If a Monthly Pass is purchased by the father of four children, one of which rides between 9:00 AM and Noon, when will the one-man car system be abolished?
Explain fully. Use typewriter only.
Lots of "science" to peddle from the subways. Acceleration, decelleration (in nice ft/sec2 even), elasticity (couplers and whoopsies), mass, momentum, conservation of energy, watts for tots, plenty ... adopt a car inspector, better than a field trip. Seriously.
The way air flows through the subway is very interesting. In the late '80s the London Underground suffered a VERY BAD station fire that was made worse by the trains pumping air through the station. Perhaps Simon Billis or British James has some detailed information on what happened.
The stuff you're talking about is fluid mechainics. That crap is very hard (I'm taking that class right now, and I'm praying to pass), and would be too much for a physics or science course.
Heh. At stage 1, I write code. At stage 2, I do email, Beyond stage 2, I come visit subtalk. 'nuff said. :)
IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! :)
Two years ago I was riding the red line on the MBTA, and I noticed a guy in the next car who was drunk, thanks to the "see-thru" windows. He was walking around and heckling people, and than he took his shirt off...but luckily the rest of his clothes stayed on. -Nick
Drunk boards at Parsons blvd. He has a 6 pack of 18 oz buds in his hand. He drops them. Then falls over trying to pick them up. He does say something but I don't rememeber (2 years ago). At Sutphin Blvd. I switch cars because I don't want to be killed if he does something. But he never cursed or was rude or agressive. At Van Wick Blvd 20 cops where at the platform and removed him without problums. I don't know how the message got to the conductor 3 cars away. I feel sorry that the guy lost his beer. Later the day when I switched to a E to goto 53st there was a drunk in the railfan seat with a beer-in-bag between his legs. He did mumble something every 15 minutes, but he didn't cause problums and stayed still and was asleep most of the time.
Once upon a time this drunk and his buddy were walking along 6th Avenue. The first walked down into the subway while the other just walked across the street.
Whe the first guy cam up on the other side, the first said "Where di you go?"
He said "I just went trough somebody's basement. You should see the train layout they have!
: ) Elias
I saw a guy step off the down escalator at Wheaton Metro (Red line) before the escalator got to the bottom and he dropped a bag which contained at least a half a dozen 160z. Buds. He almost got tangled in the footplate trying to pick them up. THEN one of the brews gets caught by the footplate and it goes FOOSSSHHHH! all over the place.
Priceless.
wayne
Sorry about the post's subject, I ran into the max character limit. So I was inspired by AcelaExpress2005 to ask this question about Septa and NJ Transit on the NE Corridor. I did the Septa/NJ Transit trip today from 30th St Sta in Philly to Penn Sta in New York. From what I could tell, it seemed like my Septa train maxed out at ~75mph and my NJ Transit train maxed out at ~80mph. Is this accurate? Both trains were Electric MU's, Silverliners and Arrows. On Friday I took an Acela Regional train from Penn Sta NY to New Carrollton. I think that train gets up to 110mph?
Wow, I that post really was in AcelaExpress2005 style. The post's subject should have read: "In full AcelaExpress2005 style, what is the max attainable speed of Septa & NJ Transit on NE Corridor?"
(Time for bed. Take 3:) Wow, that post really was in AcelaExpress2005 style. The post's subject should have read: "In full AcelaExpress2005 style, what is the max attainable speed of Septa & NJ Transit on NE Corridor?"
The local tracks b/t FAIR and SHORE are 100mph, the express tracks are 120 or 135. SEPTA MU's can usually get up to 90+ b/t GRUNDY and MORRIS, 70-75 on the rest of the line due to station stops. I have seen them hit 92, but was stopped by a 45 cab signals. Phil saw a Silverliner II get up to 98, but there was the smell of burning wire in the air. I assume the AEM push-pulls hit 100 on the local tracks.
NJT trains are goverened to a top speed of 100. The MU's usually only get up to 92-96. The ALP-44 haulted trains frequently overspeed at 100 and have the breakers trip.
The AEM Amtraks do 125. The Acela Expresses do 135 in the middle tracks.
Thanks. You answered everything!
Local track speed b/t SHORE and FAIR might be 110. Also I think that b/t FAIR and NYC local track speed is either 110 or 120. The 135 speed stops at UNION as the special satilite cab signaling gives out there. Elsewhere I think that AEM haulted trains are limited at 120, not 125. I suspect this because a clear cab signal has 120 w/ it on the max speed box.
The ALP-44 haulted trains frequently overspeed at 100 and have the breakers trip.
What are you talking about? NJT trains never reach past 96 and it almost never does. The locomotive hauled trains pull slower than the MU's by experience because they take a long distance to start up so there is less distance for a fast speed.
The MU's have good acceleration but are a bit pokey at top speed. They weigh more than standard coaches and the powered trucks have greater internal friction than non-powered trucks. Whenever I have been able to see the speedo in the cab the speed is not that fast, usually hovering around 92. The loco hauled trains are usually the Trenton expresses and thus have plenty of room to hit 100.
Im glad I inspired you, and your right, that is my style!
That's right. NJT MU's reach 80mph tops in all non-restricted areas (except for the segment between Rahway and Newark Penn.) and if you looked at the actual speedometer, you'll know.
S/b from Elizabeth to Rahway is 55mph after the curves at Elizabeth, then 80 all the way until Hamilton, then 30mph or so and less as you pass through the switches at Trenton.
On SEPTA, you can see the speedometer from the railfan window, which is not the case on NJT. From what I've seen, the usual top speed is around 83 MPH, but I have seen it higher. Most other SEPTA lines are in fact slower, but they feel faster. The Trenton line feels so slow because trains are often getting passed by cars on I-95 while stopped.
thanks! Yeah, I didn't want to stand at the railfan window becuase I had a bunch of bags with me and was traveling alone. But if that weren't the case, I definitly would have been up at the window.
PA Drivers go 75-80 so the train's aren't that slow. If you get lucky you can see into the NJT cab. Often the don't close the door until Princeton Jct.
Alright, all knocks at septa aside.
I was intrigued by a post a few days ago, where somebody suggested working as a B/O, T/O, or Trolley/LRV operator for SEPTA. I'm 18, going into my first year of college at drexel, and to me, working for septa makes sense, especially since the pay is much much better than I'm used to. However, on their website, they say that prospective B/Os (that's all it appears they are looking for) must have three to five years of driving experience. Now because of NJs regressive driving laws, I only have about 1.5 years experience (started at 17). I can fufill all the other requirements, but that one is a sticker, should I just wait on it, or should I go to septa and say, "I can do all of this, but just have a slight lack of experience," or should I wait on it?
Also I was wondering, if the ad is for B/Os, can I walk in and say I want to drive a Trolley, LRV or RT100 car? Are those seniority spots? If I do go and ask that, will they laugh my sorry arche out of the building?
And finally, is the pay really all that good? I'm making about 7 bucks an hour now, and if I go to work for septa I have to cover the cost of crossing the delaware every day.
BTW, anyone know if PATCO or NJT are hiring?
Thanks in advance.
BTW, anyone know if PATCO or NJT are hiring?
It's my impression that PATCO doesn't pay very well. It's a very cost-conscious, frugal operation.
SEPTA will not even look at you unless you meet their minimum requirements. You'll have to get that extra 1 1/2 years under your belt. And yes, the LRV/trolley/100 jobs are high seniority positions. You'll have to drive a bus for a few years before considering picking those runs, though as a newbie you may see a day or two on one of those lines depending on how SEPTA assigns it's employees.
NJT normally does not post their job openings on line. For NJT, you should simply send in your resume and specify that you'd be interested in the Assistant C/R position or whatever position that you'd be interested. The address is:
NJ TRANSIT General Office Building
Attention: Personnel
180 Boyden Avenue
Maplewood, New Jersey 07040
Also if you're interested, the PATH is looking for Conductors. They've been actively hiring lately.
I rode an F train from Coney Island to 179th Street last Thursday for the first time in years. It was great -- would have been better if: (1) it could use the express tracks in the four track subway in Brooklyn and (2) if the Time Signal at the foot of the grade up to Queens Blvd. from the 63rd St. tunnel were eliminated or at the very least have the speed raised much higher. What a waste of the energy that the train has from coming through the tunnel only to be slowed down and have to pick up speed once again to climb a steep grade.
I had forgotten what a fast ride the Queens Blvd. line provides.
Time Signals in general should be reevaluated. Some do not slow the trains enough and others slow them down for no apparent reason.
Time Signals in general should be reevaluated. Some do not slow the trains enough and others slow them down for no apparent reason.
Agreed.
Yes it might be better if they let you cruise thru and if there was a red that did not clear and you hit an E train Gomez Addams would be proud.
Cay-E-da! You spoke FRENCH! :)
I think it's 'tish or querida
Yep, caught me there, It's "'Tish, Caida (spelled it phnetically, hoping for the best, exit stage left) you spoke French" ... but yeah, you got the usefullness of the point. Moo. :)
I mean he had the trains go head on AND he blew up the bridge. What a perfectionist. It will be hard for me to top that if I make yard dispatcher.
Heh. We'll see about getting a button installed and a free cigar too. :)
> Cay-E-da! You spoke FRENCH!
Huh?!
- Lyle Goldman
Gomez to Morticia in the old Addams Family TV show. Don't mind us. :)
Its called progress. Write to the MTA or your congress men or mayor. Or just write a leter to Kalikow say that you will come forth with the "truth" if he doesn't comply.
aint life unfair and a bitch ! it seems like san francisco has our
#1 burger chain {IN & OUT } and our PACIFIC ELECTRIC RED PCC CARS !!
@ like i said life is unfair !!!.............lol !!
I think you had better cut down the dosage of whatever you are taking.
You are starting to sound like a certain individual who doesn't post here any longer (but hangs out at Harry's).
2 much coffee ?? ...........maybe so........!!...........lol...!!
Well, dunno if you knew this but that "PE" car in SF (#1061) is actually an ex-SEPTA PCC painted to look like a PERy car. AFAIK,
none of the PE PCCs survive to this date :(
PS, In-and-out sucks lol
...which one did U go to ?? .....lol!!
i mean a burger every now & then is ok i guess if you still eat em'
i thought the KOSHER DOGS at penn station at NEWARK were nice .....
.........lol !!
Today is 46 years since the Transit Authority declared the IRT Lexington Ave. line closed between the Brooklyn Bridge and Grand Central stations due to the washout at the IRT Astor Pl. station. My mother has a cousin who remembers this event quite well since his father couldn't get to work the next day, because his shop was in the vicinity of the affected subway line, and the street was closed off to traffic. If any old timers still remember this event, it must of created one hell of a mess on the subways until they got everything straightened out. They started working on repairs on Monday July 16, 1956 and everything was completed so that the affected subway line was running once again on Friday July 20, 1956. It was remarkable that they managed to get the subway line up and running in less than a week after the incident. The incident was caused by all of the water that was used to put out the fire at the old John Wanamaker store between 9th and 10th Sts. and 4th Ave.
#3 West End Jeff
From what I've read about the washout, it sounded like the sort of thing that very easily could have shut down service for weeks. It's just amazing that the trains were running in only a few days.
Back in THOSE days, the Transit Authority was a WONDER OF THE WORLD in how they could replace RAILS while NOT interfering with a 90 second headway on THAT track, could rebuild a MAJOR calamity in 24 hours, and could keep the trains running AS PLANNED without GO's (except for diversions for 6 hours at a time when the entire BMT fourth avenue express line was completely replaced) ... nowadays, such is no longer the case.
Even byt hte 70's when I was a motorman, once the rush hour was over, it was not unusual to encounter a swinging lamp, and when I came around the curve, a rail was MISSING! The guys down below would swing a new rail into place, pound spikes, and I'd roll over a partially placed rail within five minutes at 10 MPH.
Once upon a time, the TA was AMAZING, and I'd often relate stories of the old TA to buddies on "real" railroads about how things were and they never believed a word I said. Fortunately, until two years ago, I had a former TMO as a neighbor who hung out in the local bar who would confirm every word I told the others. Gone are the days of the "gung-ho CAN DO" TA ... aside from a few others who are recent hires in "car equipment" ...
But once upon a time, before today's "touchy-feely management" the TA worked wonders EVERY DAY ... and Train Dude hired up just at the edge of those "old days" when I worked there - when trains didn't get yanked just because a door didin't close ... they got yanked beacuse they had to be pushed onto a siding. :)
Signs of the times, although where there's a will -- or in this case where there's political pressure from above -- things can still get done pretty fast, as in the IRT tunnel reconstruction through the WTC site, which apparently will be completed well before Election Day.
No election = no pressure = inertia, and that's even before they get to the actual work, but in the planning and contracting phases (If NYC gets the 2012 Olympic bid, watch how fast the 7 extension project to Javits Center goes forward if the Olympic stadium is built next door).
Definately have a point there.
Another thing is tho, the MTA has no competition, and may never will because of all the blocks one would have to go through to even think building a seperate entity from the MTA.
Competition before unification of the BMT IRT & IND was a big kick for new lines
the three divisions had all been city owned for SIXTEEN years when that washout occurred. The issue is political will/pressure and the generally low motivation/willingness to produce. The Subways were considered a NECESSITY, thus repairs were immediate.
The remark I made was in reference to the 3 divisions prior city ownership
The subways have always been a Necessity for this city; never disputed that. In fact, this is the reason why I brought up the point of competition. The MTA does not have to worry about customers blowing them off (because they cant provide new service) and finding other subway company lines.
"The issue is political will/pressure and the generally low motivation/willingness to produce. "
No competition, no political heads jobs on the line for it, no big rush.
No competition, no political heads jobs on the line for it, no big rush.
The subways are really a little different. Even if the BMT and IRT still existed as seperate entities, how would they get permission to build? They could acquire private property, and build on that, but that would be expensive, and when it comes time to cross a street, you'd still need permission. With a huge public service like that, it should be controlled by one agency that it city-owned. The TA gets additional funds this way.
3 characters: PSC
I believe that the deal to give the TA to the MTA thus separating fare increases from the mayoralty elections is the significant change. Once ALL of the authority/responsibility was disconnected from the voting customers, the pressure was gone. 'course that assumes democracy is a functional concept--got any bridges for sale?
All it did was put that fare-power in the governor's hands instead.
-Hank
Which allowed a mayor to say he had nothing to do with it. That is the point. The city voters no longer have a hammer to use on politicians to make the system serve them.
No election = no pressure = inertia
Tell the Pakistanis and the Chinese that - they obviously haven't cottoned on to the fact that production can only happen in a liberal democracy ;-)
Well, China also helps it's production by use of forced prison labor (so much so that many jobs that moved from the U.S. to Mexico are headed there because 50 cents an hour labor costs at the maquiladoras is too high compared with Chinese inmates). I'm sure some goodhearted soul down at the MTA or up in Albany would love to take all the Rikers inmates and make them build the Second Ave. subway, but that would probably run into problems both with the U.S. Court system and the local unions, since overall construction wage rates would be skewered a wee bit downward doing that...
I'm sure some goodhearted soul down at the MTA or up in Albany would love to take all the Rikers inmates and make them build the Second Ave. subway, but that would probably run into problems both with the U.S. Court system and the local unions, since overall construction wage rates would be skewered a wee bit downward doing that...
Probably not a workable idea. On the other hand, using foreign "guest workers" to build the SAS is not wholly beyond the realm of possibility, though of course the unions would have a bird.
Just sign some laws into effect that set up a system where you just can't sue the MTA because it is an entity of the US government. Now you can try to sue in the UN but you will be arested for being a traitor.
though of course the unions would have a bird.
Grrr... can we sell you Lady Thatcher?
I like that idea!
election doesn't mean anything. There is no reason a politician has to follow out what he says.
The trouble with a "can do" attitude is that every now and then, people being human, someone makes a mistake and someone gets hurt.
Now there is a precedent for this "can do" procedure being potentially dangerous. If the procedure were continued, and another accident happened, there would be a lawsuit where the plaintiff would now charge GROSS negligence, because the TA ALREADY KNEW the procedure was dangerous. So that's the end of that procedure.
Given our litigious society, the TA has to put in a million redundant safety procedures, and the can do attitutde loses out.
It's a shame. Once upon a time, the subways ran 24/7 with some "slight delays" here and there. Well ... give the attorneys a few more years, we'll all be walking around in plastic bubbles with parachutes to assure our personal liberties. :)
Nah, These days train go out of service because the Train Operator Display screen doesn't work on the R142's.
Geez ... I'm gaining a newfound respect for Dispatcher Frank in Pelham 1-2-3. :)
Used to be, I've got 90 pounds of air, I got watts for tots, buzz buzz, let's go. Sheesh.
Why can't they make the controls on the subway cars as simple as they were 40 years ago?
#3 West End Jeff
In 68's they're the same as they used to be, same for the 32's and others. What I suspect with all this "high tech" is that having a computer to second guess you means that the position can be "dumbed down" as a craft and thus can be paid less, a MAJOR watchword these days (cost-reduction and "broadbanding") ... I guess it allows the cleaners to operate the trains someday. I dunno.
But I'll guess we'll be there when we see "Train Operation for Dummies" next to the "Chief" at the news stands. :)
I can certainly picture going into Barnes & Noble or Border's books and seeing a copy or two of "Train Operation For Dummies" next to the "Windows XP For Dummies".
#3 West End Jeff
If there was a repeat of the Astor Pl. washout today, I'd bet you money that it would take them a month before the trains are up and running.
#3 West End Jeff
I'd bet it could be even longer than a month today. The Astor place flood was a MAJOR disaster and the undermining and other damage that occurred there was remarkable in its extent. That repair was one of the biggest repair jobs the TA's done up until today's IRT rebuild down near ground zero ...
It was quite amazing at the time that they managed to repair the damage from the Astor Pl. washout in less than a weeks' time.
#3 West End Jeff
Now that entire area which was undermined is filled in with concrete. It may feature one of the sturdiest, if not the sturdiest, tunnel floors in the entire subway system.
I remember the Astor Pl incident quite well; for history's sake I'll mention the building that was torn down [there was also a Wanamaker 1907 much bigger building and a bridge connecting the two] was built in 1867. for what it's worth. But my rail related story was the TA's public statement was after the roadbed and track was restored that "it could never happen again" Maybe not at that one place but what about all the rest of the system?Oh well, I found it humorous.
Astor was QUITE a job, I vaguely remember it as a kid and read up on it many times in later years. You were out there on the rails around the same time I was (and prior) ... I'm sure you've encountered the swinging lamp and missing rail yerself. Amazingly, they can't seem to do that anymore. Wimps. :)
Fortunately I never had to make an emergency stop for a missing rail.Or being swung to a stop without advance flags/lamps. But I did roar aroud a curve once and see a red lamp staring at me and dumped it...for a careless worker who I almost nailed a few minutes earlier going north. [Turned at 57/7 for the return trip]
You'll love this one then. First trip north at just after 6am, was told there was trackwork just south of DeKalb and keep my eye peeled. Worklights everywhere of course, signals bagged, encounter the flagman. Flags me on, proceed at caution into the curve, whereupon the rail is GONE on the offcab side! Bunch of guys lifting the new one into place 50 feet in front of my face. Talk about left hand, right hand. 10 minutes later, rolled over it all. Sheesh. First trip in the morning, nobody needs that. Apparently the work continued into the early part of the rush too since all the gap trains were gone when I got to 205th.
Speaking of flooded stations, I remember a water main berak near Grand Central, and have photos from the newspaper of Niagra Falls going down the stairways of the Lexington station, and the trackways were bacically "row-ways" as the water was even with platform level. It looked sort of like a Disney water ride. I hate to think what the 7 platform looked like. It seems like everytime there is a water main break in Manhattan, there is always a subway underneath flooded.
What other stations have been flooded out over the years?
I remember in August 1999 (I think it was 8/26). An early morning thunderstorm hit and the tides were just at high so the drains could not go into the rivers. I know the 1,2,3 were out most of the day. At least from 8AM to about 3PM.
I remember that. The weather forecasts called for a "drizzle." Ha!
It was on national television that two MNRR MUs, one from Harlem, one from New Haven, got caught in 4 ft of water at Mott Haven Jct. and required the services of FL9s to get them out.
Nearly all of the subway lines were messed up, but the #6 from 125th to Pelham was the last to come back into service, and that wasn't until well into the evening. Reason being that the low point in the strecth between Cypress and E 143rd was under 5 ft of water.
And what unnerved me about the whole expereince was the fact that Hurricane Floyd was still about less than a week from town.
and i was on I87 both TIMES LEAVING NYC!!!! It rained so hard that my window wipers broke on my car!!!!killed the motor....
A Cat 3 or more hurricane hitting NYC would be awful. Most Hurricanes veer east, at least no further west than Long Island, but God help us the day that a monster cane's eye goes right through NY Bay and up the Hudson, putting Manhattan in that dangerous northeast semicircle.
I remember in August 1999 (I think it was 8/26). An early morning thunderstorm hit and the tides were just at high so the drains could not go into the rivers. I know the 1,2,3 were out most of the day. At least from 8AM to about 3PM.
Yeah, but IIRC, that was because the Hudson and East River both overflowed into the waterfront Con Ed stations that generate the DC to run the IRT (and/or whole system)? Not sure about the details, but it was much-remarked-on that both of the plants were in areas susceptible to floods ... anyone got more details?
They would take atleast a year nowadays.
Observed at 0430 this AM at Bedford Park Blvd. Two redbirds added to the money train consist. They were in the middle though with the 2 IR/OR cars on the ends. One of the redbirds also had maps taped up on all the windows.
Peace,
ANDEE
Who they cut up the money train. I thought even thought they had a Coupler inbetween then they were unable to be cut. I would make sence to do it so the crew can have A/C, but the poor T/O still has none. They should just get ride of the cars an put in whats needed into the Redbirds.
Robert
Andee,
I saw that train this evening going south at 23rd St, on the 8th Avenue Line. 8990-91 are in between 0R/IR720. The reason for having a collector on each end is due to the fact that the 'birds lack those dual trip cocks. An interesting sight.
I'm pretty sure these were in service in the last week or so, otherwise they were pulled from the deadline at Concourse. It is said that an R-33 and R-36 pair is being pulled to work service, for what is beyond me.
-Stef
Sounds Excellent. My guess is they added the redbirds to that train for A/C purposes? Im sure the people on that train had a cool break tonight. I hope this contiues R 22s and R 33s gotta love it.
Check your maibox, dude.
The addition of AC sounds good for Collecting Agents.
-Stef
Last week I was walking through Penn Station when I spotted someone studying an outdated map (too much orange, not enough yellow). Turns out it was a Hagstrom. I walked over and gave him the news. He asked me how to get to 8th Street (I guess it didn't matter in this case), and as part of my directions, I suggested he pick up a new map at a token booth. He told me that he had just bought that map at a newsstand right in the station. I told him to go back and to demand a refund.
What business does a newsstand at Penn Station have selling year-old maps when up-to-date maps are available for free at either end of the station? Can anything be done? Obviously the newsstand is legally entitled to sell any map it likes, but maybe the TA should attach a condition to its MetroCard vendor agreement that prohibits the sale of subway maps, at least outdated ones. (How much does the vendor make on each MetroCard sale?) Add a notice underneath the MetroCard emblem that free subway maps are available at all subway stations.
>>What business does a newsstand at Penn Station have selling year-old maps when up-to-date maps are available for free at either end of the station? Can anything be done? Obviously the newsstand is legally entitled to sell any map it likes, but maybe the TA should attach a condition to its MetroCard vendor agreement that prohibits the sale of subway maps, at least outdated ones. <<
Newsstands operate on a very small profit margin. As such they can't just throw away a map that they might have paid $8 or $9 dollars (or a bit more)for. They will hold it until they sell it.
The MTA cannot dictate such terms as to what the age of maps are as long as they are not MTA issue maps. That is called free enterprise.
I know book publishers do allow bookstores to return books that haven't sold. Do map publishers do the same?
In any case, if that's a recurring problem, perhaps the newsstand shouldn't sell subway maps at all, seeing as it's half a block from a subway station in either direction.
The MTA can dictate just about anything it likes in its contract with vendors who sell MetroCards. And doesn't the MTA (or LIRR) lease the lower level of Penn Station from Amtrak? Then the MTA can choose to sublease its space only to vendors that agree not to distribute outdated information. The MTA can also opt to modify the MetroCard emblem posted at MetroCard sales outlets by including a notice that free, up-to-date subway maps are available at all subway stations.
>>The MTA can dictate just about anything it likes in its contract with vendors who sell MetroCards.<<
I am sure that the First Amendment comes in here some place. Remember the MTA is a government agency.
I am sure map publishers do teh same as book publishers but I'll bet you dollars to donuts(don't ask, it is just an expression) that most newsstand vendors wouldn't bother.
David, if you are so concerned about this why not contact the NYC Dept of Consumer Affairs.
Better still why don't you put up signs near each newsstand:
"Don't waste your money!!! Subway Maps are free at all token booths"
The First Amendment doesn't bar government agencies from only entering into business ventures with those private bodies that voluntarily choose to restrict what they sell. The newsstand is entitled to sell whatever maps it likes, as I said, but its owner might think twice if doing so would leave it without MetroCards to sell or without a lease in the lucrative Penn Station. The decision is up to the newsstand; nobody's free speech is being restricted.
The MTA can also opt to modify the MetroCard emblem posted at MetroCard sales outlets by including a notice that free, up-to-date subway maps are available at all subway stations.
OR, they could just put it on the back of the metrocard somewhere. The ones without the ads have a lot of blank space on the back.
They have the instructions on how to use them.
Was the outdated map an official NYCT map? If so, its resale probably is prohibited. I have, however, seen newsstands selling unofficial maps by Hagstrom's or other companies, that surely is okay.
It was a Hagstrom map. It's certainly legal, but I don't think it's okay unless the customer was warned that there had been three major service changes since the map's publication date.
I've heard a story once in Chinatown. One of the tourist stores was selling official TA subway maps for $5 each. Everytime someone in the shopkeeper's family would pass a token booth, they would ask for a free map from the agent on duty. A label with ($5) would be put on the map and the map would be put on sale. When an off-duty employee would stop by the store and enlighten a prospective customer about the same map being free at the token booth, the owner would get mad, pull out a meat cleaver and chase the agent from the store.
Some stores in Chinatown can rip you off. I think they sell the DMV drivers training book while you can get it for free from the DMV.
>>>I think ...<<<
A true surprise for you.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also in Chinatown they have the CD's for $4.00 each.......of course the cover is a computer scan of the original.....so you know what that means.
I've never seen the DVD's they sell there, but I assume you'll see the back of people's heads, as they have movies like Spiderman wjich are still in the theater. I'm sure the picture quality of those must be "great".
Yeah I usually don't buy CD's that cheap in Chinatown, especially if they look pirated. Sometimes you'll find deals on that stuff though. And Canal street electronics shops are way better to shop in than the Best Buys and Circuit Cities.
They still have plenty of blank cassettes and players to play them.
All the interesting electronics can be found there.
Also in Chinatown they have the CD's for $4.00 each.......of course the cover is a computer scan of the original.....so you know what that means.
I've never seen the DVD's they sell there, but I assume you'll see the back of people's heads, as they have movies like Spiderman which are still in the theater. I'm sure the picture quality of those must be "great".
Ah, but if you're in Chinatown and not accessible to a DMV paying for the book might be worth it.
The Greenwich Street DMV is about two miles away from Chinatown. It's a lot closer than the nearest DMV to my apartment.
Isn't there one on Worth & Lafayette? That's much closer to Chinatown.
Not anymore -- Greenwich near the tunnel exit and the south exits of the two Rector stations is its replacement.
Does the "This map may not be sold or offered for sale without written permission from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority" blurb have any legal force? I don't see how it can. If I've obtained a piece of property (e.g., a map) legally (e.g., I was handed one at the token booth), can't I then sell it to anyone who's willing to buy it?
Just because you have something doesn't mean you're free to sell it. Common examples include event tickets, where re-sale is restricted by law and also professional works which have limited distribution.
If anyone really wanted to bring this to a courtroom, I imagine that the TA's (or, "the people's") argument would be that by accepting the map without payment, you implicitly gave your agreement to accept the limitations on sale written on it.
CG
I agree. As proof, I bought a Hagstrom subway map that still indicates
that the JFK Express train is still in service. JFK has been gone since 1990 or 1991.
If anyone really wanted to bring this to a courtroom, I imagine that the TA's (or, "the people's") argument would be that by accepting the map without payment, you implicitly gave your agreement to accept the limitations on sale written on it.
Without seeing them or even being told they exist? I find that hard to believe.
I wasn't saying it was airtight -- or even close. However, people accept restrictions all the time without having them disclosed. Concert tickets prohibit your ability to record what you view/hear. Baseball tickets limit your ability to file lawsuits for injuries from being hit in the head with a ball....
CG
Does the "This map may not be sold or offered for sale without written permission from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority" blurb have any legal force?
And how about if the map dates from, say, 1967 and has become a collector's item?
The 1967 maps didn't have that verbage on them.
When was the "verbiage" introduced?
If memory serves it started to appear in the early to mid 1990's.
Perhaps the TA is beginning to notice all of these maps on e-bay!! Today for the very first time the customer service person asked for my telephone number when I requested updated maps for subway and bus.
The next thing they could ask is for your e-mail address and compare that to those on e-bay.
Today for the very first time the customer service person asked for my telephone number when I requested updated maps for subway and bus.
Does anyone know if I could 'phone and request these from the UK - or rather if they'd mail them?
Yes, they will send them to the UK.
There was another subtalker from the UK who did so.
That was me. I 'phoned the MTA number and asked for the latest subway map to be sent to my home in London, England. The lady took my address and raised no question about it being overseas. I emphasised to her that this was in the UK and asked whether this was OK. She said yes.
Six months later, I have received nothing in the post from the MTA.
I assume it's too expensive for them to ship it over the pond.
If the MTA were to operate a subscription service for people to pay to have the latest subway map sent out to wherever they are in the world, I'd happily pay. I don't know of any transit authority that does this, though. Transit services that have pocket maps at all offer them for free -- but only at stations. It seems that collectors don't figure in their commercial equation. Only passengers do. This contrasts with postage stamp companies, who often produce special commemorative packages aimed at the collector market rather than at people who are mailing things.
Peter
The Oslo transport agency does, or used to do, a subscription service for their timetables, which include maps. Their timetables are published as books, one for each type of service (one for subways, one for trams, one for buses). But I think they may have abandoned this with the advent of the Internet. I looked at www.trafikanten.no and didn't see anything about subscibing to timetables, although they are available as PDF documents from that site.
Mvh Tim
Ah, so after anything interesting historically - it'll be a problem in 30 years (maybe).
"Does the "This map may not be sold or offered for sale without written permission from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority" blurb have any legal force?"
It all depends how much money you have for lawyers.
A year ago I saw a used copy of Office 97 on sale at ebay and bid on it. Pretty soon I got an email from ebay saying the auction was canceled because Microsoft has threatened them with legal action because resale is not permitted.
I also know there was some brouhaha many years ago where some vendors were charging for the NYU student newspaper, which was actually free. I don't remember the details, but they stopped selling it.
On the other hand, if a store sells the maps for $5 and stops if and when they get a nasty letter from NYCT, they probably won't get sued for retroactive damages. And maybe NYCT won't bother suing.
I don't think it has any legal force. I think it is more intended to let the buyer know that they are being charged for something that is free.
Some of the newsstands in Penn Station sell copies of the Village Voice for $1.50, even though it's supposed to be distributed free in Manhattan.
It's distributed free citywide.
And if someone is willing to buy it, the newsstand just made a $1.50.
The message about the map can not be sold or offered for sale is inside the map. One would have to unfold it first to read it. I doubt if tourists would be allowed to open up a map to read it.
We sell the outdated Hagstrom map at my book store. A couple of Russian tourists were going to buy one and when I saw that it had the B, D, F and Q trains on 6th Avenue and only the N and R trains on Broadway, I told them the map was out of date and that they should go across the street to the subway station to get a current map and that it wouldn't cost them a cent.
Maybe Hagstrom just hasn't printed out an updated subway map. I know Streetwise has - well at least it shows the Q and W trains on Broadway and the B and D trains terminating at 34th Street.
Thank you for directing them to an up-to-date map.
Have you suggested to the store manager (or is that you? you spoke of "my book store") that the outdated maps be pulled, or at least that a warning be posted at the map rack?
>>at least that a warning be posted at the map rack? <<
David,
No retailer in their right mind would ever do something like that.
"Don't buy these maps - they are outdated"
No honest retailer would sell a map it knows has critical errors without first warning the customer. I hope we still have some honest businesses left.
David,
You are living in a dream world.
Aside from us on SubTalk and similar boards, how many people do you really think are even going to notice such things (or even care).
This has less to do with honesty and more with practicality. Do you really think a merchant is going have the time to spend time going over each page to see where there are errors? Do you really think they are going to do more than take the books out of the package and put them on the shelf? They buy the items "as is" and sell them the same way. That is why there is the saying "Caveat Emptor".
I'm obviously not blaming someone for selling a map he doesn't know is outdated. But if a customer or an employee notices that it's outdated and informs the manager, if he's honest he'll pull it off the shelf or post a warning. And if the outdated maps came in a recent shipment from the publisher, he may have a word with them as well.
At least in New York State, most store purchases are not "as is." I don't know if this applies to obsolete maps (especially if the maps are date-stamped), but I do know that, e.g., if I buy what looks like a CD but is an empty jewel case, I have every legal right to demand a replacement or refund (even from a store that doesn't normally offer refunds or exchanges) -- unless the store has an "as is" warning posted (as is often found in used CD stores).
At least in New York State, most store purchases are not "as is." I don't know if this applies to obsolete maps (especially if the maps are date-stamped), but I do know that, e.g., if I buy what looks like a CD but is an empty jewel case, I have every legal right to demand a replacement or refund (even from a store that doesn't normally offer refunds or exchanges) -- unless the store has an "as is" warning posted (as is often found in used CD stores).
I bought a used copy of a recently published book from Amazon a couple of weeks ago, and it was shipped from a dealer in Brooklyn. Just last evening, I noticed that about 30 pages in the middle of the book were missing, which came as quite a surprise because the book looked otherwise brand-new. I e-mailed the seller right away, and this morning got an apology and a promise that Amazon would re-credit my credit card (which they already did). Now that's terrific customer service!
(It's just as well. The book in question is Fire Lover by Joseph Wambaugh, who used to be an excellent author. God only knows what happened, this book is barely readable crap.)
I can see both sides of the issue.
If the store owner is stuck with the old map, what's there to do but sell it? As others have pointed out, the margins are exceedingly thin.
On the other hand, if I discovered I had bought a faulty piece of merchandise (such as a map that no longer applied to real life) I would go back to the store and demand my money back if it was reasonably convenient.
I don't understand. Does the newsstand continue to sell the New York Times from two weeks ago? Of course not -- if any copies are left unsold at the end of the day, they're thrown out. That's part of the cost of doing business, and every newsstand owner knows to account for it. I'm sure those same newsstand owners could account for the cost of throwing out old maps -- or if not, they could stop selling subway maps entirely and direct customers to subway stations.
The Times is different, as are newspapers in general. They agree to accept returns of all papers not sold by the next morning.
I thought we had already decided elsewhere in this thread that map publishers probably do the same thing (book publishers definitely do) but that the newsstands were too lazy to bother. Guess it's just easier to fool the gullible tourists.
>>but that the newsstands were too lazy to bother. Guess it's just easier to fool the gullible tourists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally! You've figured it out.
Now let's give this subject a rest.
It also has to be remembered that your average person probably doesn't read up on changes in the subway, and whether or not the Manhattan Bridge is open to the 6th Ave line (unless you are a user of the line). It's quite possible that the store owner doesn't even know or think about whether the maps are current. A subway map is a subway map, may be the thought.
Remember we know a lot more about the subway than most people ever will, or care to know about. Most people, unless it effects them, aren't going to be current of recent (or even not so recent) service changes.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with them selling old outdated maps, but more than likely the store owner never gave it a thought.
Go read this story from Sunday's SI Advance for another out-dated problem.
>>> I spotted someone studying an outdated map (too much orange, not enough yellow). Turns out it was a Hagstrom. I walked over and gave him the news. He asked me how to get to 8th Street (I guess it didn't matter in this case), and as part of my directions, I suggested he pick up a new map at a token booth. He told me that he had just bought that map at a newsstand right in the station. <<<
Naturally we were all shocked, SHOCKED, to learn that a tourist might be ripped off in the Big Apple!
Tom
How does one register signs of SHOCK with a "SNORT"? I am truly beside myself. And this after a personal pledge not to post on SubTalk after drinking three martinis? To think that God excluded the unicorns from boarding the Ark.
On Saturday I decided to do a bit of riding and photo taking.
I was hoping to see some R143s in action but alas they were all in the yard at Rockaway Parkway (I took a couple of shots). On the way back to Manhattan I was at the RFW and was watching intently and noticing the mixture of old BMT signals with newer ones.
About 1/4 of the way between Jefferson St and Morgan Av we passed a platform on the right ahdn side which was only about 20 feet long!! It was the depth of a standard passenger platform.
In all of my reading of the research done on doesn't mention this platform. Anyone got any ideas as to what this platform is for?
I also noticed that there were a number of old BMT signals that were ar red but the train past right by them at speed. Unfortunatly the headlights were misaligned so I could not get a good look at the roadbed to see if there was the standard stop arm hardware.
Are there signals that were deactivated but the lights not turned off or the signal heads covered? If so why weren't they covered over?
I have noticed that a few times also. It is probably some sort of emergency exit. I don't believe there was ever a station there or planned there.
I do know that originally the plan for the Canarsie line had a Flushing Ave station and not a Jefferson St station, but I think the original plan was also for the line to be elevated east of Montrose or Morgan also.
IIRC the Canarsie line was to have run on the ROW of the old LIRR Evergreen Branch from Morgan Ave to B'way East New York.
I think you may be right. I believe it was to be an elevated over the LIRR Evergreen branch, as there was to be some sort of junction at Wyckoff Avenue.
The area between Jefferson & Morgan on the Manhattan-bound side is simply a storage area.
As far as the signals go, those signals are still active with the proper stop arms still working. But what it is is that the timers on that line are worked by the regular T/O's on the L line so well that the stop arms go down just as the train passes the signal by and you MAY see the signal clear beforehand. But believe me, if the T/O's speed is just a bit off, that signal will trip the train.
I was riding with one of those "regular" T/Os on the Canarsie Line on July 4th. He was so close to getting tripped that I heard an "Oh, S#!+" through the door... but the arm must have gone down nanoseconds in time.
"First you say it, then you do it." :)
Why do the T/O's push it so close? Tight scheduling? Or is it a matter of pride?
You should see them play chicken with the timers in the tunnel. And they clear at 45MPH!
wayne
Funny mentioning those timers. I never was a NYCT operator but I am a volunteer operator at Branford. I am so used to the W/B signal just before the loop to change from red to yellow as I creep up to it that I assume it works just like the timers on the subway system. Well, while operating this past Saturday, you can imagine my surprise when it stayed red. Fortunately I was going slow as its within yard limits and just before a facing point switch (Branford rules)) so I didn't have to dump.
Jeff,
There are no timers at BERA. 8W/4W protect the curve from the 1E to the start of double track. Then there is the clear post right before the IJ of 8W. Send me an email and I'll reveiw how the 1E/8w/4w work and how you can cheat up to 4W (especially in the Fall). (Don't let Jeff hear me >G<).
I should say there are no times signals at BERA, YET!!!
If certain people in certain red cars continue certain practices,
look for a blind trip in Riverside curve.
Yeah, alot of hard work on the guard rail went up in smoke thanks to certain 'hot rodders' behind the wheel of a big red car...
Tsk, tsk, tsk.... I've been waiting for someone to mention the use of trippers. I'm surprised you haven't already installed them (LMAO). The power drop system is more than sufficient. Are we a subsidiary of NYCT?
-Stef
Stef, I'm surprised you'd even ask such a question...don't you know BERA is top-heavy with Supervision...LOL!
Yes, big brother is watching.
-Stef
They shoulda painted it olive drab like it came from the factory. There's nothing in the world that attracts radar guns like "cop bait red" for an Earl Scheib job. :)
In my days as a motorman on that line it was quite the game to hit those timers [without a lunar] just right and never see them go green orget tripped [thankfully I didn't] Otherwise [we made in those days] 4 round trips could get very boring! I still don't think timers without the lunar are proper and if you did get tripped the rules left you hanging..RED MEANT STOP. There are places in the Chicago dearborn subway [maybe State too?] that have such timers, and they cut them close too. Come to think of it they had them on the Willy B and many other places on the BMT.
Since a friend of mine claimed that he had travelled more than three times round the world since last September, I thought I would total up my systemwide Amtrak mileage and see how much it came to. The answer was 14,585 miles, or 58% of the earth's circumference. In other words, I have travelled more than half-way round the world on Amtrak.
14,585 miles
That's before any bonus miles and before any Acela runs which pads 500 miles into a BOS-NYP run. I would calculate things like railpass miles, cost per mile etc but I have to do some real work soon, so I will leave that exercise for later.
The amazing thing is, I have ticket stubs for more than 85% of the journey legs detailed below. The attached is a list of journey legs, some of which are on charter trains, others are on mail trains.
The mileage will continue to rise. Long live Amtrak.
How many miles do you people have?
--AEM7
[N.B. I have excluded mileage gained on Amtrak NEC through riding commuter rail. I have also excluded yard moves and empty moves. I also excluded all mileage accured on Clocker, Keystone, Empire Corridor to Albany and other Amtrak commuter services. I have included thruway bus mileages where there used to be a train service, but in an effort to cut costs, it was replaced by buses. The thruway bus is only counted where the route cuts have occured since 1971. For example, the DTW portion of the Lake Shore. Car-hire partner scheme would only count if the mileage driven follows exactly the route of an abandoned former Amtrak line. Any local portion of such drive does not count (i.e. only line-haul mileage as it was on the railroad could be counted). Airline legs of the air-rail scheme does not count.]
O/D____ Trn# Date___ Miles
------- ---- ------- -----
WTI-ALB _448 27DEC98 00663
ALB-POH __69 28DEC98 00117
POH-ALB __68 29DEC98 00117
ALB-CLE _449 29DEC98 00477
CLE-ALC __44 30DEC98 00056
ALC-WTI __43 02JAN99 00241
WTI-CHI __43 04JAN99 00140
NWK-PHL _178 13SEP99 00081
PHL-GNB __43 14SEP99 00322
GNB-CHI __41 16SEP99 00495
CHI-DEN ___5 18SEP99 01038
DEN-RAT 6003 20SEP99 00220 (Thruway Coach)
RAT-LAX ___3 20SEP99 01176
LAX-OAK __14 21SEP99 00473
CHI-FOS __40 09AUG00 00234
FOS-CHI __41 14AUG00 00234
CHI-FOS __40 18NOV00 00234
FOS-CHI __41 26NOV00 00234
TRE-BOS __66 06JUN01 00289
BOS-PHL **** 10JUN01 00322
PHL-WAS _175 13JUN01 00135
WAS-PHL __12 14JUN01 00135 (Fast Mail)
PHL-CHI __41 15JUN01 00817
CHI-WTI __48 19JUN01 00140
TOL-CHI _449 02AUG01 00234
FOS-PHL __40 09SEP01 00583
PHL-BOS _194 09SEP01 00322
BOS-MDN _145 28SEP01 00158
MDN-BOS _142 29SEP01 00158
BOS-PHL __67 09JAN02 00322
PHL-CLE __43 10JAN02 00492
CLE-WAS __30 11JAN02 00423
WAS-PHL _146 12JAN02 00135
PHL-WAS _143 13JAN02 00135
WAS-BOS __66 16JAN02 00457
BOS-BRA _498 21FEB02 00192 (MassBay Charter)
BRA-BOS _497 21FEB02 00192
BOS-PVD _195 28APR02 00043
BOS-TOL _449 30MAY02 00783
TOL-BOS _448 06JUN02 00783
TOL-BOS _448 01JUL02 00783
Well, at least definately 7,000, probably more. Went on a x-country trip about 5 years ago with my father, NYP-LAX via Kansas City, then across the south with the Sunset Limited (a great train), then up the east coast with one of those Silver trains.
Add on over the years a few round trips from NYP to orlando, a few trips to RI, washington, chicago, philly, I probably have 10,000 miles under my belt.
All Aboard!
My lifetime mileage for steel wheel on steel rail in the US stands at
94,826 miles.
I don't have a breakdown for how much of that comes from trips on Amtrak, but I bet more than half of it is Amtrak mileage. (I started keeping track of mileage in 1979 when I graduated from High School, so that figure doesn't include a trip on the 20th Century Limited from La Salle to Croton-Harmon as a kid, nor does it include lots of CTA and CNW mileage pre-1979, or the mileage from a 1971 trip to Europe as a kid.) I've ridden the entire Metra system in Chicago, except for the South Chicago and Blue Island branches of the former IC electric, and the former CNW Northwest line branch to McHenry. Systems I've ridden every revenue inch of: CTA, MUNI, BART, MAX (Portland, OR). I've ridden significant portions of: LIRR, MNRR, NJT, SEPTA, NYCTA. I also include steam excursion milage in my personal totals.
"Old Head" New Yorkers might be interested to know that I started keeping track of all this after reading "All Aboard With E.M. Frimbo" while I was in High School.
"There isn't a train I would not take, no matter where it was going..."
Enroll in guestrewards. see www.amtrak.com.
When you enroll you will get poitns which can be used for free rides on AMtrak.
Actually I'm a rewards member. I've always taken a hostile attitude towards the airline frequent flier schemes, except the Amtrak scheme since I actually use Amtrak. All my flying still goes out to the lowest bidder, and I'm not a frequent flyer on any airline. As a result of that policy, in the past year I have flown: Southwest, Midway, ATA, Airtran, Delta, America West, American, (and probably many others that I had forgotten about...)
More often than not, I couldn't bothered (or forgot) to enter my rewards #, so Amtrak computer doesn't pick up my mileage. They should really do it automatically when I enter my name and address.
I'll send you a bagfull of Redbird flatluence as your reward for subsidizing Amtrack if you like. One should NEVER have to enroll in these phoney programs...any business that recognises customers does it automatically. When I was in the video game business and I needed paint from the paint store down the block, they extended a discount to my purchase despite the fact that I was a working employee and not the owner of the business. CI Peter
Oh, and the other good thing about flying many airlines is that you meet many more attendents, and they are never likely to run across each other. My first experience with America West was this year when I had an urgent need to get to Columbus. We had some chick named Amber for an attendent... my, she was hot!
I ran some more numbers yesterday:
14,585 Amtrak Miles
10,358 of which was NOT railfan related (defined as having a genuine purpose for the destination in question, non-transportation related)
7,131 of which was revenue miles
(7,454 of which was either railpass, or non-revenue)
Total revenue from revenue miles was $962.64.
Average yield was 13.5 cents per mile.
Total revenue from non-revenue miles was $750.00 (three railpasses)
Average yield was 10.1 cents per mile.
My total payment to Amtrak was $1,712.64
$1,712.64
Alright, not as significant for some high-yield customer that took the family on the AutoTrain or booked a Sleeper car across the continent, but that's still quite a lot of dough. I estimate that about 30% of my leisure budget in the past 4 years had gone directly to Amtrak, and a lot of the other 70% was spent on airfares getting here in the first place. Since moving to MA, I've spent very little personal money flying or engaging in other forms of intercity transportation (such as using a hire-car).
AEM7
I've had enough of this dispute. It's done nothing for this Board or our reputations. I don't know you and as such it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to dislike you. You're a very spirited young lady who's passionate about her positions and even though I've often been on the receiving end of your wrath, I would be a fool not to respect you for having the guts to stick by your guns. I regret every ill word and insullt I've thrown at you on this Board and I want Dave and every Subtalker to know that in that respect I HAVE BEEN WRONG. You and I would make better friends than enemies anyway for we both have one very important thing in common; we each know who and what we are and don't give a rat's ass what anybody else thinks about it. So enough of this ill will; if we must not agree at least let us agree not to be disagreeable. I'll be your friend and stand by you if you'll do the same for me.
E_DOG
how about a muskrat's ass?
What, prey tell, are you apologizing for?
I gave her a pretty rough time and I don't care what anybody else thinks of me, I have a great deal of respect for young women.
E_DOG
Yes, treat all railfans -- whether they be foamers or foamettes -- with equal dignity...;-D
>>I gave her a pretty rough time<<
An argument about the Astoria "el" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That's where it all started, but it's been going on ever since. I hope this well settle it and they can get on with their mutual interest......on the tracks.......... It's nice to be able to see them possibly holding out their right hands to each other.
what do you think im gonna do?marry the guy!? o.0
what do you think im gonna do? marry the guy!?
Only if he's into bigamy :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
uhhhh.....yaright ok ~.~
Well I meant a handshake, but......
lol,i know what you meant,i was just joking around
I am completely unaware of this particular issue, but I think there is a lesson here. Think twice before hitting the "Post Message" button. Is this posting something I want to be recorded for eternity? It just might be.
huhhhhhh....alright,fine.lets just put this behind us.i,just like you,am tired of this dispute.so bygone's will be bygone's.and do know one thing,all my posts reflect on what i think and my vast knowledge of transit and ive said i do know alot,not bragging or anything but that is true.so whats past is past so lets just move on.i stand by you but please,as the noble sir foelschow mentioned,think twice before pressing the 'post message' button,i and the others dont want something wacky happening again.
I recall someone mentioning that there is a store that sells vintage subway signs on Houston street. I'd like to visit there when I come to NYC in October. Can someone please give me more details (name of store, authencicity of signs, location (nearest subway stop as I'll be subwaying the whole trip))? Thanks in advance.
its a block away from bway.i used to pass it right after 9/11. i couldnt believe they had a sign there for cortlandt st world trade center. signs werent there when i last passed. i think a lot are used for movie shoots. walk from bway east on houston. you cant miss it.
>>I recall someone mentioning that there is a store that sells vintage subway signs on Houston street.<<
I know there is a fenced in corner slice of land where they sell old porcelain signs, subway, gas station etc.
Across the street there was a larger fenced in lot selling all sorts of oddities and some six or seven years ago. I kid you not when I say this, but they had a front of a green R-10 in there. The front was probably cut with a torch at the scrapper and brought over in three pieces. The establishment is gone and so if the R-10 front.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's the northwest corner of Bowery & E Houston St. I forget the name, but there are subway signs, Coke machines, furniture, and bathroom fixtures strewn about on the Houston St side; you really can't miss it. They're ghastly overpriced (approx. $125 for a pillar sign to $900+ for an overhead). Prices are based on "desirability" of the sign; i.e., Times Sq or 161-Yankee Stadium would cost significantly more than, say, 75 Ave.
The (6) to Bleecker Street or
The (F) (S) (V) to Bway Lafayette..
It's the white-tent lot across from
Houston Billiards.. variety of oddities
and SUBWAY SIGNS (station pillar tablets,
overhead EXITlike signs, redbirdlike straphangers,
bulkhead rollsigns, more)..
Their prices tend to run $50 and up...
Lot 76 Antiques
76 East Houston St.
Phone: (212) 505-8699
Story at http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-rail0715.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
He's only a kid. Its a terrible tragedy. Please keep all negative comments to yourself.
Over fourty years ago, I remember places in Brooklyn and Staten Island where you had to transfer or access trainsets by crossing wooden walkways reached by wooden stairs over tracks with third rail nearby. Maybe then media didn't push such tragedies. I'm trying to find out about my classmate who touched carbody with Big Bug several weeks ago. CI Peter
What is a Big Bug?
It seems to be a 600vdc extension cord with a gator clip at the end.
Leastwise that is what I assume (sort of) from the context of several posts. Maybe it is in the Glossary?
Elias
Yep, that's pretty much it. Allows 600DC to be applied to the current collectors of cars in the shop so they can be tested under power (or moved a short distance in testing) without having to have third rail on the floor for safety. But all it takes is one dumbass to let it contact ground and you don't have to wait for the fourth of July.
Hung from the ceiling on springs (and supposed to have the bootie on the end to protect against accidents) they're there when you need power to complete an inspection of electricals and running systems at voltage.
Serious stuffsky...big bugs and stingers hang down from an overhead trolley without spring support. Stingers have 150 amp fast blow fuses...big bug clocks the 2500 amp breaker. Picking up the big bug to trolley out a trainset follows a specific procedure like arming an RPG-7....hold it DOWN in the aisle at floor level , raise it SLOWLY and place it against the shoe with enough pressure to overcome the spring loaded shield. Make the effort BEFORE trolleying to insure that the big bug will roll upon its track and you have enought distance between other stingers and bugs to move the trainset. Of course, in a loud voice, announce 'Hot Shoes' as all shoes on the car are live. Serious stuffsky...the reason we get paid a decent wage....really dangerous work. Komrade Gillaganovich struck carbodsky with the big bug....ARMAGEDDONOWKSY....600 VDC at 2500 amps is 1.5 MegaWatts of deadly power. 'On the track, on the track, HOT Shoes, HOT shoes, trainset moving out, watch your back, HOT shoes, trainset now on the deck, Hot shoes, watch your back.' CI Peter
Okay, there is a joke I don't get here. Why is everythink yada-yada-ski? Is this because some Russian or Polish immigrant person who worked as a CI once electrocuted himself? I doubt you guys would joke about something like this, but there must be a reason why you were posting only in this message using the -ski-isms.
AEM7
I'm older and more experienced than most of the new CIs per industrial controls and high voltage safety. I've worked on everything from pinball machine CPU drivers to 40,000 watt shortwave transmitters. Like many new CIs, I carry a big chip upon my shoulder...something went wrong with the CI exam I took. TA knows it, changes were made in the last exam and TA needs 'every breathing walking body.' Problem was that a select number of 'immigrants' received coaching to pass the exam with high scores. Do not get me wrong or lable me XENOPHOBIC but I'm bugged because high score means union seniority...if you have no basic mechanical skills...well...I'm not there to be a supervisor or teach the work that should have been learned before OTJ. English language comprehension and understanding is 'really serious stuffsky.' Not being able to complete inspection reports results in train troubles and RTO pulls 'out of service.' Not being able to communicate conditions of high voltage/pneumatic pressure application/rapid train movement can lead to serious injury or death. We work with these people everyday...they are our friends, they are our partners, they are our brothers, they are Car Inspectors just like us...and we keep a safe distance from those who have demonstrated a potential safety risk. We all can make mistakes..we are all Gods children...and some children make more mistakes than others and never learn from their errors. REMEMBER THE KURSK: open sea doors before a torpedoe launch. 'In the hole SPEAK ENGLISH.' My classmate was stubborn in his ways despite his extensive electronics experience...this work was 'far below his stature'...and he did not heed my warnings about 'going with the flow.' He may have failed to observe the steps in applying high power to a third rail shoe and made contact with the grounded carbody...his career is probably 'muddsky.' English remains the language of instruction and communication...despite the high influx of Eastern European/Indian Penninsula immigrants. Just one mistake on the job can change your life forever. I love my work and make the effort to protect my fellow CIs from injury. CI Peter
"I just want a fence,” she said. "That place is dangerous.”
Yes, there should have been a fence in that area.
Unfortunately a fence is easily climbed, cut or broached, and then presents an even greater attraction to kids.
I grieve for kids and their parents. Knowing that tracks are dangerous, and knowing that they are doing wrong (such as tring to put a peice of metal on the tracks) is not enough.
The biggest predictor of auto accidents (or boat accidents or stupid railroad accidents) is the presence of other kids. Unfortunately, I do not have an answer for that.
Blessings on the mother who donated the boys organs, that is not done very often in stressful situations such as this, even though an accident victims organs are always the most useful.
Elias
I think they should put cyclone gates where third rail tracks intersect streets, such as the CTA grade crossings just south of Linden Terminal (Purple Line). A few years ago, a drunk man strayed into the CTA Brown Line tracks and was electrocuted (this line has numerous street crossings on the western end).
He peed on the third rail! The CTA posted signs, so they are completely blameless. Quote me. End of story.
Yeah, I saw it on the news yesterday...
Isn't it an NYS law that third rail must be securely fenced in?
Nassau police said Kevin climbed over a three-foot concrete abutment and through a pire rail fence in order to reach the tracks.
I think that says it all.
The circumstances of the accident are somewhat mysterious and have nothing to do with fencing.
Apparently he was biking on the Long Beach Line, which means he could have entered the track at any grade crossing. Why he and his friends entered where they did is beyond me, except maybe they thought hey would be more easily observed at a crossing.
It is also not that easy to contact the third rail. If the kids are telling the truth that they got off their bikes, my guess is that they tried to carry their bikes across the track (and third rail).
The only answer is to teach kids to never never go near the third rail. But kids don't always listen.
Why he and his friends entered where they did is beyond me
"On Sunday evening, trouble struck again. Kevin Brown, 10, and a handful of friends from nearby Valley Stream were riding bicycles along the dirt road when one of the friends threw a piece of siding on the tracks to see what it would look like after being run over by a train, investigators said today.
The siding did not land where the boys wanted it to, so Kevin leapt off his bike, climbed a short concrete wall and slipped through a metal railing onto the tracks, where he tried to rearrange the piece, officials said. But instead, Kevin, a catcher on the local Little League team who had been looking forward to a trip to a water park this week, apparently touched the electrified third rail with his leg, his mother said.
Kevin's friends tried frantically to save him, but he was pronounced dead about an hour later, at 7 p.m."
Tuesday's Times
I didn't always do bright things when I was a kid, and my kids don't always use the best judgment.
You tell kids what's the right thing and hope the mistakes they make aren't too dangerous. Usually after they make a mistake once 99.9% of kids will at least not make the same mistake again.
But as a parent, I use stories like Kevin's as an object example that certain things really are dangerous and your parents finding out isn't always the worst punishment.
But as a parent, I use stories like Kevin's as an object example that certain things really are dangerous and your parents finding out isn't always the worst punishment.
There had been various discussions (amongst developmental psychologists) as to whether kids understand what dead really means -- "not living", "not coming back", "dead is it, done, punto"... The problem is, when their pet chinchilla dies, they buy a new one, etc, so for kids "dead" is often not a great deterrent.
Then there is the judgment of risk. The society as a whole actual perpetuate the myth that kids are not required to judge the level of risk for themselves and instead should rely on their parent's judgment (thus if the parent doesn't find out then everything is permissible). For example, if your kid set the house on fire with your matches, then you are responsible, despite having told him that he should not play with matches (or should do so only in a safe environment). That is plainly stupid. That sort of reasoning encourages kids to play with matches when you're out. If it were my kid, I would rather they played with matches while I am there watching with easy access to a fire blanket than behind my back in a garage filled with combustibles.
Many a times I find the best advice to give to kids is "use your judgment". They are not stupid. The "don't come crying to me" rationale is a very effective deterrant, especially if it is followed through.
Enough social commentary for the day.
AEM7
The problem is, when their pet chinchilla dies, they buy a new one
And save the old one's fur for a coat.
As a parent, I can tell you that by the time, they are 10, barring some fairly severe developmental disorder, kids know what "dead" means.
On a metaphysical basis, you can argue further points. Some adults imagine that they will somehow be able to observe their own funerals and such. Different religious traditions have different concepts of what, if any, consciousness we have after death.
But for the purpose of our discussion, kids younger than 10 know full well what dead means. Whether they believe that they in particular, may die from a particular act, is another matter. That's why stories like Kevin's are so important--they make danger more realistic when it seems like someone "who could be you."
["There had been various discussions (amongst developmental psychologists) as to whether kids understand what dead really means -- "not living", "not coming back", "dead is it, done, punto"... The problem is, when their pet chinchilla dies, they buy a new one, etc, so for kids "dead" is often not a great deterrent."]
That is why I don't really like when my wife and also relatives tell my 5 yr old son that people go to heaven when they die. At his age he thinks heaven is just another place and there is no finality to death.
I've always preached against the belief in afterlife as being bad for society.
I did so on this board and was yelled at (the thread was probably and rightly if so, deleted).
My parents never taught me about the afterlife, neither of them believe in it.
The good thing about believing in afterlife is that you can use ultimate reward or punishment to promote moral behavior.
On the other hand, not believing in an afterlife allows one to truly grasp exactly how horrible murder (and death) is.
I personally do believe in an afterlife, but I doubt kids should be taught it when they don't even understand anything yet. I mean, if you're young and are told that heaven is a place "where all your dreams come true" and everyone who they know has died is there, you won't see the harm in killing: a- yourself, or b- others.
I personally do believe in an afterlife, but I doubt kids should be taught it when they don't even understand anything yet. I mean, if you're young and are told that heaven is a place "where all your dreams come true" and everyone who they know has died is there, you won't see the harm in killing: a- yourself, or b- others.
I would imagine that almost anyone who believes in an afterlife believes so for religious reasons. If so, that same religion almost invariably teaches that suicide and murder are mortal sins, therefore you would not spend that afterlife in a good place.
I believe the problem arises when people who don't believe in it talk about heaven as a "fairy story" to avoid a difficult discussion about death with children.
What I wanted to say was that it is all too easy for a parent to "forget" to tell the child the rules if they're not in "religion-teaching mode". And, as you say, it is an easy way out of a difficult discussion.
What I wanted to say was that it is all too easy for a parent to "forget" to tell the child the rules if they're not in "religion-teaching mode".
Yes, I see that point. And if you're telling a child about heaven as a comfort, you might not want to seem to be threatening him/her with h-ll in the next breath.
I'm in a strange situation of being a mostly Catholic person who do not believe in afterlife.
The good thing about believing in afterlife is that you can use ultimate reward or punishment to promote moral behavior.
I don't know that moral behaviour should be "promoted" in such a way. People need to understand right from wrong, no matter what the consequences. Stealing and not getting caught doesn't mean it's right. On the other hand, hauling off trash that no one cares for or wants is not an issue even if it is technically stealing and therefore, would, "in God's eyes, be a sin", according to the more traditional school.
In any case, I don't think little kids understand what "forever" really means. They just think it's something you put at the end of a book, and all it means is that you need to wait for the next episode to read another story. Sure as hell, *I* did not understand what "forever" really means until several very real experiences recently and I'm 22.
For the longest time, I have failed to understand why death should be upsetting. I still do not have the first-hand understanding of the death of a close relative, for example, but in a way I believe death is only a terrible experience for those who choose to make it so. Take an example, my grandmother died a while ago, while travelling economy class trans-Pacific. It wasn't exactly expected, but people deal. It just means that you aren't going to get to talk to her anymore. You can't share your time together anymore. Sure, you miss them, you wish they were back, but they aren't gonna. So you accept it. You are glad for the time they did spend with you, and you are happy in the knowledge that you gave the person the best time they could have had with you.
I've found breaking up from a relationship a harder thing to handle than the death of a few relatives and friends. The difference there is that when a relationship is broken, it can be salvaged, you just have to work at it. The unwillingness of (often) the other person to work at it upsets me. When people die, they can't come back even if they wanted. Get over it.
AEM7
(now dating Melyssa again)
There is a major problem with the idea of an "afterlife".
First of course is the images of what people or cartoon writers depect as Heaven. I presume it is nothing like that at all, Yet I do (obviously as a Catholic Monk) belive in eternal life.
And there is a big difference between an after-life and eternal live.
Eternity is without beginning or end. Today *IS* part of eternity... a part of your eternal life.
I am not so interested about this 'be good now to earn eternal life' morality play... you have already embarked on your eternal life, and somewhere your mortal life will end, but your soul, your essence, will continue on, like ripples in a pond long after the sone has sunk to the bottom and rests in the mud.
How this will be, once your mortal life ends, I have no clue, nor am I particularlly interested. I have begun this journey, and I will continue it. Climb up to the life-fan window, we are on a roll, and the lights are green!
Elias
NICE touch! (from a former resident of Graymoor who had a problem signing on to the celibacy thing and went back to civvies before it was too late) ... :)
Celibacy is not hard.
: ) Elias
Ummm ... yeah. YOU explain that to a 17 year old. :)
>>> Celibacy is not hard. <<<
The correct phrase is: "When it's not hard, celibacy is easy." :-)
Tom
Elias, as a Catholic monk, you probably would consider me a "lapsed Catholic".
What year were you born? Where were you the year before that? Is it not possible that when you die, that is the end? Like you, I don't have a clue either, and I don't think one can, but the concept of eternal "life" seems to be only a comforting legend, and I'll leave it at that.
I was born in 1948....
But, I remember Perl Harbor, with the planes buzzing around the USS Arizona and I remember the trenches of World War One, and Battles around Gettisburg. I saw Paul Revere climb the old North Church tower: One if by Land, Two if by Sea, Three if they come on the IRT!
OK, I'm not a kook, or beleive in a former life, but the pictures of these events, gleaned from magizines and film have made a impression in my memory, not at all unlike copying some old files to your hard drive. And then when you call up those files in the directory, you have no way of knowing that they were created before your computer was built.
And so it is that we are not islands unto ourselves, but we in fact do have a collective memory, traditions first handed down orally, then written on scrolls, printed in books, then as images on film, and then as digits in cyberspace. Caral Sagen called 'man' the "Compulsive Communicator". And what we communicate is our human tradition.
And more than that, we are the City, its infrastructure, and more importantly its people. We feel the loss of that 11 year old, along the LIRR tracks, and we feel the hurt and anguish of his mother, even though we have never met them. Monks and hermits have always climbed the mountains, or crossed the deserts seeking God in silence, in solidude, but they must always return to the valley for while you can find God in solitude, his ower is mutliplied and amplified through his people. When we combine into a people, with a history, with a tradition, we are as individuals, far greater than we could be alone.
I said that we live in eternity, that we are a part of eternity, and that eternity includes the here an now. I said that we share in this eternal life, but not all of this eternity is visible to us. It is bigger than we.
Death, the death of this 11 year old, or of those two out on the bay are moments when life touches the sacred, the eternal in a special way. Such moments are portals, windows into the eternal, and into ourselves.
Elias
Sorry, you know I'm not a suckup by now, but I'm REALLY impressed by your faith. For all those who beat up on priests and pray in their graven images of Jerry Fallwell, I'm even MORE proud to be able to say, "I don't have to be born again, I did it RIGHT the FIRST time." :)
Seriously though, WELL put.
When we combine into a people, with a history, with a tradition, we are as individuals, far greater than we could be alone.
This is called agglormeration economies, right? (You can tell I like that word, can't you?)
AEM7
So a 'little wacky MS' who knows me says, 'If you die upon this work as a Car Inspector, you will spend Eternity as a Car Inspector.' Elias, that's not so bad...spending my eternity before Ressurection doing work that I like to do. So my Father Bill says, 'I want to go to Heaven and take as many people with me as possible.' Wrong thing to say post 911...didn't know of your commitment to a monastery either. Sometimes it takes a very long time for the Lords Graces to circle the 'Karma Wheel' and find us to remove us from situations of harm and deliver us to situations of contribution and Good Works. The Transit Authority may never know of the bonds of the September 17th class of Car Inspectors.....or maybe they planned for that. I never ask the Lord 'what's next?' WE LIVE FOR THE ONE, WE DIE FOR THE ONE AND WE DON'T DIE STUPIDLY...WE ARE THE CI CLASS OF SEPTEMBER 17TH AND WE ARE THE T.A. RANGERS. God Bless, CI Peter
Actually, I hear Hell ain't so bad: if you like to party with the likes of Richard Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover...;-D
The good thing about believing in afterlife is that you can use ultimate reward or punishment to promote moral behavior.
I don't like the way religions define morality. Look at the seven deadly sins, all of them are victimless crimes in most cases.
A person with good judgement should decide on their own how to live their life and society should make sure that one person's life, liberty and property doesn't adversely affect someone else's pursuit of same.
On the other hand, not believing in an afterlife allows one to truly grasp exactly how horrible murder (and death) is.
It's also much more difficult to live with a death in the family. With a belief in afterlife, your loved one is in a better place and one day you will be reunited. If you don't believe in the afterlife, then they're gone, and one day you will be too.
Much more depressing not to believe in the afterlife.
but I doubt kids should be taught it when they don't even understand anything yet.
I don't believe kids should be taught it at all. It's not a fact, like the sky being blue or the world being round. Knowledge of it wasn't derived through observation and it was never proven with the scientific method.
Many Japanese children believe in Annual Gift Man (who lives on the moon), but eventually, they outgrow it.
I don't like the way religions define morality. Look at the seven deadly sins, all of them are victimless crimes in most cases.
A person with good judgement should decide on their own how to live their life and society should make sure that one person's life, liberty and property doesn't adversely affect someone else's pursuit of same.
I totally agree on all points here. Which is why I feel most organized religions are just.... I won't go there here.
What are the seven deadly sins?
Anger, Envy, Greed, Gluttony, Lust, Pride... forgot the last one.
Sloth.
Anger, Envy, Greed, Gluttony, Lust, Pride... forgot the last one.
Welllll... if those were the seven deadly sins, I can see why they are deadly. For instance, anger makes you do stupid things, and you'd probably end up harming yourself, so it's just as well that religion teaches you to avoid it! Envy is just likely to drive you nuts, it makes your life so much better if you did not have envy. Greed is the same.
I think where the religion went wrong is that it did not teach you how to avoid the seven deadly sins. It only said not to sin, but it offers no practical help. Face it, if you had a way not to get angry whenever you felt that someone has done something to anger you -- like a reset button or something, wouldn't you press it?
Yeah, those sins really are deadly.
Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to...
Oh, wait...
Never mind.
-Hank
Huhhhhh????
Anger, Envy, Greed, Gluttony, Lust, Pride... forgot the last one [Sloth]
Actually, and as contrasted to the 10 Commandments, which you might say are a bit more in the sense of law, the list is elegant.
They are all things that debase us as human beings.
"Look at the seven deadly sins, all of them are victimless crimes in most cases."
The seven deadly sins aren't "deadly" in the sense of being the ones that send you straight to hell (they aren't; that's "mortal sin"), nor are they the ones that are the worst to others (murdering someone is clearly worse to that person than being gluttonous or slothful). They are supposedly the worst sins FOR THE PERSON SINNING and are deadly in that they are the most likely to (1) **lead to** the worst actions (anger or jealousy leading to murder, for example) and/or (2) consume the sinner (hence gluttony and sloth, otherwise victimless as you say, being included).
Good thought, but we can't even make many ADULTS adopt that behavior these days. That's why we have lawyers for them to come crying to when they blow themselves up.
Well at least they won't sue the LIRR for inadequately protecting the kid. But on another note, WHY did he go through the trouble of getting to the tracks just for a piece of siding? Had he no clue that if a train were coming he would be killed ? ( assuming he knew nothing about elebtrified rails)
Umm, just so you know on the News tonight the mother is suing the LIRR. Hopefully just to put up a fence, not for $$$.
Well, you have to expect people will sue after a loss like that, even if the suit doesn't have merit.
But the problem was not the lack of a fence. You can access third rail from any electrified grade crossing on Long Island. Your biggest danger on the railroad, anyway, is getting hit by a train thundering through many of these crossings at 80 mph, not touching the third rail.
Think about it, anyone who really wants to walk where there's third rail can climb down or jump down from any platform on the LIRR, or the subway or MNRR, for that matter.
If they were personally liable for the same damages as they sue for if they lost, then people might not sue so fast.
The incident occurred between Lynbrook and Valley Stream, where the tracks are "elevated" for the entire stretch. (Although they are eleveated, they do drop down to near ground level in between some stations). The nearest grade crossing is at Centre Avenue, a couple of miles away and further from his home.
I suspect that the kids are telling the truth, as there is an underpass less than 1/4 mile away and no need to carry bikes over a 6 foot high wall/fence combo and across 4 tracks.
CG
I don't know precisely where the electrocution occurred, but you can easily reach the track from either the maintenance (motor vehicle) yard at Valley tower, or the Gibson station grade crossing. Still, the kids would have been visible to tower staff.
Third rail is adjacent to every grade crossing on the Far Rockaway & West Hempstead lines. The old Hewlett ground-level platform, between West Broadway and Franklin, abuts the track. The third rail is between the train rails, so you'd have to go out of your way to touch it, but it's only six feet away and hardly secured.
WELL, what have we all learned? When the NRA brings 'Eddie Eagle' into the classroom to teach children 'find a gun, not to touch, call an adult,' the NRA gets flack about gun violence. Should children in schools be taught about railroad safety? CI Peter
I remember a story when I was a kid. Me and a friend went on a bus without our parents permission from our homes in East Meadow to Hempstead. (pre LI Bus, the Hempstead Bus Comp) We went to Hempstead Station to see the trains. Hempstead still had low platforms back then (pre M-1's) so it was easy to get onto the track from the platform. For some reason I thought the running rails were electrified instead of the third rail and I told my friend Lew not to touch the rails or he'd be electricuted. He said "yeah right", went down on the track and touched the rail. I shuddered but nothing happened. What if I had said "don't touch the third rail". Would he have touched it? I still shudder when I think of it.
OnTheJuice
My guess is simply that Lew knew the difference between the running rails and the third rail and showed off that fact to you.
When I was maybe 11 (1957 or so) I rode over near Avenue H station, which was a favorite spot, because I liked to ride my bike down and up the underpass there. I have talking with a track worker who was sitting eating his lunch beside the southbound local track. I forget how it came up, but he told me the piece of third rail right near his foot was not live, even though trains were running by. He said he would prove it to me if I gave him my hand. I did, and as he held my hand, he jammed his foot on the third rail! Nothing happened. Can anyone guess why?
I give up! Why?
When I was maybe 11 (1957 or so) I rode over near Avenue H station, which was a favorite spot, because I liked to ride my bike down and up the underpass there. I have talking with a track worker who was sitting eating his lunch beside the southbound local track. I forget how it came up, but he told me the piece of third rail right near his foot was not live, even though trains were running by. He said he would prove it to me if I gave him my hand. I did, and as he held my hand, he jammed his foot on the third rail! Nothing happened. Can anyone guess why?
Two possibilities:
1) He was wearing boots with thick rubber soles.
2) "Something" did happen, and you were reincarnated.
The boots wouldn't have helped unless Paul also was wearing rubber soled boots. Remember they were holding hands.
The answer is that the third rail the track worker was touching was a carrier rail that lit up the train annunciators in the Newkirk Avenue station. The rail only carried current when a train's third rail shoes touched it, carrying over current from the live third rail on the opposite side.
You only need to insulate once, not twice.
-Hank
The track worker was replacing third rail, and he kicked the rail he just took out.
Everyone, especially kids, are so inclined to think that trains either stop on a dime, or can steer around them, and unfortunately, as part of Operation Lifesaver's slogan says, "they are DEAD wrong!!".
I think Operation Lifesaver needs to step up trackside safety awareness at NY area schools. They think the railroad track tresspassing thing happens mainly out of the city in rural areas, and unfortunately they're wrong, and this is evidence of that. I think railroad safety awareness in the schools by them would help big time.
Giving I have seen the condition of fencing along the LIRR right of way, the LIRR breaks that law big time!! Anyone who wants to see hard evidence of this just take a gander at the right of way along the Montauk line by St. Albans, or the inadequate fencing along the Main by Kew Gardens, or the Babylon/Montauk east of Rockville Centre (all the street-level ROW), or the stretch on Sunrise Highway, across from Harrow's in Lynbrook. Anyone can easily access the ROW.
Yeah, never understood why LIRR didn't make the Montauk branch completely elevated between Valley Stream and Lynbrook. The friggin' ROW dips down to street level for about 2 or 3 blocks then goes back up to an elevated. Totally retarded (guess it was a cost-saving feature when the line was originally elevated).
I guess there was no need to since there were no crossings there.
If you remember a few years ago 2 kids were sideswiped by a train right at that spot because they took the liberty to sit on the third rail protection board like it was a park bench, not even realizing a train was bearing down on them. Luckily they survived but with pretty bad injuries. LIRR needs to fence this ROW. Often I seen kids and even grown ups roaming the ROW.
Right. I've even seen locals walking their dogs near the ROW. The area around that portion of the ROW could be mistaken for a park...
They should consider better fencing at Forest Park in Queens, as well. Even though train frequency is high, I still have seen several nearmisses with trespassers and trains, one of which this day the train was blaring the horn like it was gonna strike a car at a crossing. It was stupid kids walking too close to the right of way. At Forest Park they even have certain walking trails that have "makeshift" crossings thru the right of way. I wonder if permission was obtained from the LIRR to do this.
CORRECTION*** In regard to train frequency I mean "low" not high. My mistake!!
They should consider better fencing at Forest Park in Queens, as well. Even though train frequency is low, I still have seen several nearmisses with trespassers and trains, one of which this day the train was blaring the horn like it was gonna strike a car at a crossing. It was stupid kids walking too close to the right of way. At Forest Park they even have certain walking trails that have "makeshift" crossings thru the right of way. I wonder if permission was obtained from the LIRR to do this.
I would like to know what will happen when the Coney Island Rehabilitation's next phas goes into effect? What will the service patterns be?
F: 179th Street to Avenue X only; otherwise as now.
N: As now on weekdays. Nights and weekends, Pacific Street to 86th Street only. It will run express between Pacific and either 36th or 59th, I'm not sure.
circle-Q: 57th Street to Brighton Beach only; otherwise as now.
R: Same as now, but extended to Pacific Street at night (express between Pacific and 36th).
W: As now on weekdays. Nights and weekends, Ditmars Boulevard to Stillwell Avenue via Astoria local, 60th Street tunnel, Broadway local, Montague tunnel, 4th Avenue local, and West End local.
This will go into effect on September 8. All other lines remain unchanged. Also around September (probably later in the month), West Side IRT service is planned to revert to the way it was before 9/11, only with no Cortlandt Street station and with ten-car trains on the 3. (I don't know when Cortlandt BMT will reopen.)
Can Pacific handle turning both Ns and Rs or will their TPHs be dramatically lowered?
If the trains can be turned around quickly, I think it can be done.
R trains will be turning at Pacific only late at night, when the N and R each run at 20-minute headways. If they're spaced evenly (good luck!), that should be no more difficult than the current practice of turning weekend W's, which run most of the weekend at 10-minute headways.
Besides, keep in mind that turning trains relay north of the station. There's room for three trains at the north end of the line at once: one at the NB platform, one in the relay, and one at the SB platform.
Uh, NO! Thanks to the work of a matched pair of idiots, the best that can be done currently is one train at each platform, and the northbound one can't even platform until the southbound has cleared the interlocking coming out of the relay.
Speaking of Coney Island, I can't find this anywhere in the net so I'll ask here: When does it (the amusement park) close down for the winter? I'll be there Oct 1-7 and would like to go on Saturday. Will it be open? Thanks
Looks like it's closed. See http://www.astroland.com/.
Anyone know how long it will be before F/Q service to Stillwell is restored?
It's supposed to be 18 months.
David
Yikes, the summer of 2003 with only one line serving Coney Island will be tough for local businesses.
According to a "large poster" on the old tower that used to span the Norton's Point platforms (facing Surf Ave), the estimated completion date of the whole project is 2005 (I forgot if it mentioned a month).
--Mark
By that time restoration is complete at Stillwell Ave., the B and D should be back there since the north side of the Manhattan Bridge is open. I'll be curious on what lines if others will be there. W, N, Q??????
If the reopening occurs simultaneously with the reopening of the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge (or after), then what will run through Stillwell Terminal when it reopens has not yet been decided, since the service plan for full operations on the bridge has not yet been developed.
David
Well if I know the TA the Sea Beach will still be in that damn tunnel. Certainly it belongs back on the bridge in 2004 and what a way to celebrate the 100th Anniversary of the NY Subway and my 64th birthday---to have my train back where it belongs.
That would be nice to see N trains back there. I remember them around 1983 operating on the Manhattan Bridge when I was only 8, and riding in my car with my parents to see my Mom's relatives in Staten Island right off the Staten Island Expy., and seeing R32's all covered with graffiti then. Most likely it will be W, and Q on south, and B, and D on north, but again like mentioned, planning is in the stages. My question was not a question, but just out of curiosity regarding assignments to Coney Island.
So met me see if I have this right. The only way to get from say, Stillwell to Brighton Beach or Ave X is to go the loing way around and instead of a 3 station trip make a 30 or so station trip? I hope they have shuttle buses running. I may just avoid Coney island this trip.
They will have a shuttle bus from Stillwell to Brighton Beach Station on the Q. As far as the F Line, I do not have that answer, but I am**guessing** they'll have some transfer at Ave X of the F to regular bus or a shuttle bus.
No shuttle buses on between Stillwell and Brighton, they will extend a normal bus route to Brighton Beach (B68??) I am not sure of the number but it isn't a dedicated shuttle bus. If there is problems on the bus line there won't be service.
Thanks, Lou! Any info on the F plans?
incorrect,there WILL be shuttle bus service to CI from Brighton Beach and Ave.X
IINM, there will be supplemental Q shuttle service during rush hours, but otherwise it's just the B68 (or whatever the number is -- I don't know either).
I don't know what the fare structure will be. It should be just like the fare structure on the typical GO shuttle bus: no fare to ride the bus, and transfers distributed and collected at either end of the blockage. When the Williamsburg Bridge was closed in 1999, that was the arrangement.
shuttle buses will run from both Brighton Beach and Ave.X plus the B68 will get extended to the Stillwell Terminal for extra convience.
Check thI just found a interesting link on Amtrak's Turboliner in the NEC.
now i have seen that before.now they it will be in service in the summer between NYC and bufflo.Is this going to happen.Wasn't that train made in 1976.ive never seen it but have pictures of it in the phase 3 paint.Is that the Acela paint on the train in the picture
That's brand new isn't it? Yeah it's Acela Paint, its gonna be used for the Acela Commuter Service.
okay.Amtrak sent me some stuff about a acela commuter train.When is that going to start.
That I don't know, Try searching Trains.com
"okay.Amtrak sent me some stuff about a acela commuter train.When is that going to start."
Acela Commuter was going to be the new name for the Clockers. But since the Clockers are going to be handed over to NJT, they're leaving the name as-is for the rest of the Clockers' time with Amtrak.
thats a rohrs turbo(deisel power) it has been and will be running onthe empire corridor
in an old paint scheme:
http://mainlineseast.railfan.net/RT.html
Talk about a snake-oil salesman. Those trains have yet to turn a wheel in revenue servuce since they were rebuilt. They're incredicle hanger queens.
-Hank
*yawn*
The RTL III has been "starting service soon" for a few years now. Last I heard, there were tons of problems, not the least of which was obnoxious fuel useage. But that's a problem for any turbo in rail service, so it's not like SSSI is in the boat all alone.
I'm getting sick of this turbo crap. We're dumping millions of dollars into a concept that doesn't, and probbably can't , work, has unknown, but likely very high operational costs, and is unseen anywhere else in the world, simply to avoid electrification, which is known, reliable, readilly available, and would be cheap if we'd figure out how to do it right.
In any case, there are zero high speed lines in the US, and only California's proposal is anywhere near close to being built, and they've already selected electrics anyway.
I kinda agree with ya, I don't like the fact that Amtrak is repainting the Turboliner and putting millions of dollars into a peace of Krap that looks ugly, I think the High Speed Turbine Locomotive that the FRA is testing now, would look real good for the Empire Corridor.
The trouble being, the HSFFL is no better. It's still got all the disadvantages the RTL has. Every other country has given up on turbine development but us.
Every other country also has a very high gas tax, every other country also have no rights to carry arms, every other country also have lower standard of living in absolute terms. Do you want to be like every other country?
saw a set at super steel[Scoita NY]resently
every other country says that they have a higher standard of living than all but them... are we really that much better than them?
we should restrict arms much more, and taxes on gas means less fuel consumption, which is very good, so that really dosnt mean anything
WCBS Newsradio 880 is reporting a freight derailment north of Milwaukee.... about 20 cars involved with possible HAZMAT. TV pictures are showing cars piled on top of each other and a few are on fire.
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
Here's the story in today's Chicago Tribune:
Train derails, spills hazardous materials
It's unclear whether the HAZMAT cars were the ones that derailed.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Correction: The article headline clearly states that at least a few of the HAZMAT cars derailed (duh). However, they're not the ones on fire.
-- David
Chicago, IL
For those interested there are a few cool photos in the Times Newsweekly this week. One the photos is of the Forest Avenue station on the M line in 1906 when it was still on the ground, before the Myrtle El was elevated through here (The Myrtle el ended at Wyckoff and went to the ground for the reminder of the trip to Metro.) Anyone who is familiar with Ridgewood will recognize all of the buildings from the station area there, as they have changed little (except maybe condition), and there is now the el and station there. Incidentially 67th Ave is still called Jefferson Ave in the photo (The same one that runs from Brooklyn) Some how most of the streets in that section of Ridgewood (Queens) retained their names (like Putnam Ave), while others lost them (like Jefferson). Very strange.
Anyway, The other photo is of the LIRR Glendale Railroad Station area. It looked beautiful back then!
The actual article is about gaslamps, and conversion to electic lighting, but I thought the photos would interest some here, as they have to do with those two stations.
Get your clicks now as they change the link's page weekly, so the link will only be appropriate for this week..........
TimesNewsweekly
Actually Kevin Walsh's great site has these same tracks in one of his links about the trolly line that took over the Myrtle's route's tracks after the Myrtle el was elevated through the area.
Forgotten-NY
It's been a long, long time since I've ridden the north end of the Myrt, but I thought I remembered Fresh Pond and Metro being on the ground. Are they elevated now?
They're same as when you were last there. Fresh Pond on the el, then ramps down to the surface into Metropolitan.
Thanks! There was a certain vagueness that confused. I know the old wooden platform and station house burned at Met, but somehow I thought they built some more el ... thanks!
It's been a long, long time since I've ridden the north end of the Myrt, but I thought I remembered Fresh Pond and Metro being on the ground. Are they elevated now?
Sorry, I wasn't clear when I wrote that, but Fresh Pond has been on the el since 1914......now Metro I might have been a little vague with......
Yeah, it's been about 30 years since I was last out there - I remember a ramp down off the el around a large bus garage, a slight curve and into the old wooden Metropolitan station which I heard burned in the 70's or 80's somewhere and got replaced. I found the ramp down to "street running" a charming feature of the line, much like the old Canarsie line's "Turnbull/105" stop at a similar wooden platform and station house with a GRADE crossing with crossbucks and all prior to that too going byebye. There were once some CHARMING aspects of the BMT that have all gone byebye ... just was a bit hazy on what I had remembered and had this vision that perhaps they had desecrated Metropolitan like they did Turnbull/105th ... now that latter was a genuine shame. It was like a small town railroad station in the city.
Yeah, and even so it's still is an interesting line on it's short run from Myrtle-Broadway, one of my favorites.
I vaguely remember the Metropolitan station burning in the 70's when I was a kid. I was wondering how they handled service when the station burned. Did they erect a temporary station, or did the trains terminate at Fresh Pond Road while they rebuilt the station?
Honestly don't know what they did, I'd blown town prior to the fire. I'd imagine that they just bussed it until a new platform could be built. I couldn't see a "temporary" being practical, it'd only delay the reconstruction. It's a shame though that the old station went, it had a "turn of the century" charm to it even if it was dilapidated as all get out. Then again, I don't think there's any wooden platforms anywhere any longer. Concrete is hard to burn, more so than wood. :)
Actually, here are a few photos from this site of the old Metro terminal, if anyone's interested. The second one seems to be from some sort of fantrip, and an R11....anyone know?
Yep, that's the place I remember. Pity it's gone and has gone "homogenous MTA" ... once upon a time, the subways had a lot of character amongst the degradation. Ah well, it's one big happy starfleet today. :)
In case you haven't been paying attention, the homogeneous MTA went out with the 70's. The standardized "bathroom tile" that went up at the Broadway BMT local stations is now removed (except at Rector) and the original BMT mosaics are being restored.
One thing that I noted on my last visit was that no matter where you go in the system, all the signage is identical, all the token booths look the same, and no matter what line you run on, the signals all look the same. That's what I meant ... and bringing back some VARIETY is nice even if all the elevated platforms are concrete these days. :)
Just think to the future....The R142's look similar to the R143's, which will look similar to the R160's......were continuing to loose variety.
One big happy starfleet ... pity a lot of the younger folks didn't get a chance to see NYC when it was "interesting" (before Disney, back in the days of "Black Jack's Peeps" and "PlayLand") or the subways when you could tell YOUR train ebcause it looked MIGHTY different from the "others" ... today we have "toasters on wheels" that all look like some 1950's refugee from the world of "Proctor-Silex" ...
But hey, the WAL*MART culture of "you'll buy what we HAVE mister!" does make for better droids and a more peaceful world. I guess. Everybody scarf down your "Zoloft" (tm) or your "Prozac" (tm) and have a nice day. Gack. Bring back "Rollerina" ...
kirk,you shop wal-mart?
HELL no ... but thanks for asking. We've sure got enough of them around here but I just can't get into Deer musk perfume and "camo fashion" ... amazingly, we've got a Pottery Barn, Macy's, Filene's, Williams-Sonoma, you name it. But the yellow happy face store is BIG over in Joe Bruno's TrailerPark county. Amazingly, I've never set foot in a Wal*Mart, when they came along, they killed off a lot of local mom and pops and therefore they can smooch my butt ...
But they're there if you really need fresh ammo in the middle of the night. :)
yeah...i feel you. there's one ''real close'' to me on Altamont ave in Rotterdame.... the parking lot is ''always'' full... drones...
AH! OK, forgot you were from around here. Between Cruisegates and our local Guilderland/Vville establishments, why would anybody in their right mind need Wal*Fart? Chinese crap and every drooler on the planet in CHARGE ... I'd rather shop at Wife Chopper. :)
You know how it is ... jsut cuz we do it in the woods don't mean we's hicks. Except for those who live in the Troylet of Brunoland. Heh.
HA....you for got Colonie Center....
Didn't mention it, but of course. Latham Circle, and dozens of others forgotten as well ... after all, we don't wanna let folks down on Lung Island know that we've got it MUCH sweeter up here than in Syosset or Clifton Pork would be completely overrun with former Nassau-ites. Then again, what do I care? I live in the "hilltowns." But if folks down souht knew how good we had it here for all those materialistic things, they'd forget Paramus even EXISTS. :)
LATHAM CIRCLE MALL????? WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT YOUNG MAN!!!!!![We have a running joke about that place... we call it Low Class mall...
And you've been *IN* a Wal*Mart. Hmmm. :)
LCM doesn't have wooden platforms either though, and I won't be satisfied until a TRAIN runs through it. So there. Gotta get back on topic so far and I'm tired so that'll have to do. Heh.
Those bastards and their good samaritan law.
>>>"But if folks down souht knew how good we had it here for all those materialistic things, they'd forget Paramus even EXISTS."<<<
They do further North to "Woodbury Commons" & cause unprecidented
gridlock. Two hours to egress the barking lot to save a buck or two.
I know we got them all in Kigston now,also ... Don't have to cross the
Mid~Hudson to Poughdonksie anymore.
;-) Sparky
I like the way you correctly note Wal*Mart with the "star" in between the Wal and the Mart. That is how it is dispalyed all throughout the United States. However, just as a piece of "useless information", the last time I was in CANADA, the Wal-Marts up there displayed the "Wal-Mart" logo with the "dash" between the Wal and the Mart.
Probably le Quebecois disapproving of improper use of ENGLISH. :)
(Don't let Qtraindash7 see this post... he'll really go off on a tangent...)
In Canada, the Wendy's hamburger stands use the maple leaf in place of the apostrophe... my wife thinks it's neat :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't know why this sort of thing is done, but a lot of American chain businesses, particularly fast food (McDonalds has a maple leaf planted in the centre of the M arches as well, for example), try to stick maple leafs in their logos on the Canadian stores. I don't know why they go to the trouble of creating a modified version of the logo when the standard one would be fine.
-Robert King
I'm sure the companies don't want to be seen as exclsuively American.
I suppose that's true although I don't think it's necessary to highlight that as McDonalds etc. are pretty much the same on both sides of the border and throughout the world, in some cases.
Me, I'd just be happy if the people who own Mr. Steer would move down from Montreal and eliminate the need to have typical 'fast food' burgers (granted Harvey's are actually quite good)!
-Robert King
I suppose that's true although I don't think it's necessary to highlight that as McDonalds etc. are pretty much the same on both sides of the border and throughout the world, in some cases.
Me, I'd just be happy if the people who own Mr. Steer would move down from Montreal and eliminate the need to have typical 'fast food' burgers (granted Harvey's are actually quite good)!
-Robert King
... (granted Harvey's are actually quite good)!
I'll be getting my annual Harvey's fix in about a week... still not sure where we're going, other than that we will probably cross into Canada at Fort Erie after riding the Buffalo "subway". From there it's anybody's guess.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It used to be Wal~Mart 15 years ago
I buy most of my basic automotive stuff at WalMart: Castrol Syntec oil, Fram oil, air, and gas filters, stuff like that.
kirk,you shop wal-mart? I try to stay away from the glazed over,dull eyed ''hi.welcome to Wal-mart!'' places.But if i have to go,its in and out,or you will get sucked into the Wal-mart blackhole of socalled bargain[the shovel in your pocket,its theirs..with all the ''must have items'']
The worst thing about Wal-Mart is their true lack of any community involvement, unless they can turn it into some public relations effort that the local store can use to promote itself in the media. Wally World will come into a town and knock off a bunch of smaller stores, and then when anyone from the community comes asking for either donations or sponsorship funds for some event or youth league -- things that the smaller stores used to sponsor -- it's like trying to get blood out of a stone.
Wal-Mart's ranked as the World's Largest Company now, but apparently all the bucks collected from around the country have to go to Arkansas. Jeez, even company No. 2 has more local charitable involvement at the national corporate level, and that's ExxonMobil...
IT'S true.... they are a bunch of bloodsuckers.... I serverly dislike them,and tend to stear clear of them.... once in.. you will get sucked into the walmart blackhole,and have to fight your way out[besides getting that shovel out of your pocket...]
Restance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Actually, we have more variety than we had at some points in the past. At least the IRT will have two noticeably different kinds of equipment. And you could divide the BMT/IND into notably different classes for some years--R32/38, R40 slant, R40M/42, R44/46, Maybe R68, R143.
In anything was more homogeneous than the run of Redbird/Reggie Welsh crs from R16 through R36 (except R32) I don't know what was.
Since you wanna talk sameness - remember when the IRT was HI-v's. Low-V's and the associated sub-classes (fliver's, etc.)? For a lttle variety, the Manhattan el's had MUDC's and and the orginal IRT subway cars, banished early in life out of the subway. The IND was all R-types, and everything looked alike. For variety you went BMT - Standards and d-Types in the hole and BU's and the world's ugliest rebuilds, the C's and the multi's on the els.
Pretty much the same today, except the Manhattan els were killed.
What comes around, goes around.
Maybe in the next life there will be variety in the cars.
The "Q"s were pretty ugly too.
As originally converted, the Qs had a neat if plain appearance, but when they lowered the roof they uglied it up.
I wish they could do a better job of retoring the roofs on the ex-Q restored BUs to look a little more like the original appearance.
Why did they lower the roof?
They were approximately five inches high than BMT/IND subway cars, which limited the routes the cars could take from the Eastern Division to Coney Island Yard. By lowering the roofs, they could go anywher4e.
So it was convenience.
Especially after their roofs were cut down -a travisty to loyal BMT'ers. What is really galling is that after the 1 Q set was re-backdated to BU status - without having the clestories put back, despite the $$ that was spent to recreate all the hardware that was removed in the conversion, plus reconstructing the 6 carsides to remove the doors, the associated hardware. A half-baked effort. If you are going to do a back-dated restoration, do it right!
If they put the roofs back to the old height, they couldn't clear much of the system. In fact, they wouldn't make it into the transit museum, because they'd be about five inches higher than the other equipment.
I think they could've done a better job of creating a compromise roof to something closer to the original appearance, though.
Weren't the roofs too high because the cars had been refitted with the old IRT trucks?
I don't think so, because that wouldn't that have also raised the floors?
IIRC, BRT elevated cars were about 4-5 inches higher than subway cars. They could clear the Williamsburg Bridge, Manhattan Bridge H Tracks, Fourth Avenue Subway and Sea Beach Line tunnels, giving them a clear path from the Eastern Division to CI. But they couldn't clear the Montague Street tunnel and other locations. Also, a number of structures were adedd over the Sea Beach tracks in the late '50s or early '60s which effectively reduced the clearances on the line.
I have been trying to blame the clerestory roof butchering on those IRT trucks for years.
After all of these years, I still have trouble believing that clearances were so tight that a 12' 2" tall 60' or 75' car could clear and a 12' 5" tall 50' car couldn't.
I get that the Standards measured a fraction under 12'2" while the Q-types were 12'5-1/2" in Queens, and 12' even with the lowered roofs.
I don't know how close tolerances are in some tunnels, but I guess if a car is a little high and bouncing a bit, 3-1/2 inches can make a difference.
I forget whether it was the Zephyr or the Hornet, but when one of those was tried on the Fulton Line the first time, it tore up some platform at one of the stations, even though the platforms had already been cut back for the C-types. So I guess an inch or two in the wrong place can be the "straw that broke..." etc.
I would like it if they restored 2 inches to the ex-Q/BU roofs. If they did that and lowered the lower part of the roof a bit, maybe they could fake a creditable looking BU roof. As it is now, it looks like a tar-paper roof on a mansion--the effect is really jarring.
As it is now, it looks like a tar-paper roof on a mansion--the effect is really jarring.
I agree but I know it will never happen. I would also like to see the Van Dorn couplers reinstalled, and the marker lights returned to their outboard position.
It's just too bad that someone hadn't been museum minded a few years earlier, and saved a couple of the 1300 series gate cars. Then they could have rebuilt the Q's to their original 1939 rebuilt condition.
It's just too bad that someone hadn't been museum minded a few years earlier, and saved a couple of the 1300 series gate cars
"No sadder words from tongue or pen than the words 'it might have been' "
At least several 1300s have been saved, albeit none at NYCTA. The museum idea was rolling by 1964--if the TA had just put aside a few cars not that many years earlier, we would have an incredible museum fleet, including, onthe BMT side, a representative of most of the classes of BU car, not to mention IRT survivals...
Only three 1300's still exist, 1349 & 1362 at BERA, and 1365 in St Louis.
1349 is the only one to have had any restoration work, and the progress on it has been slow. One side of 1349 is apparently painted brown, and the other green. Both are legitimate colors, with green being its last paint job in revenue service.
The 1300's really would have been a terrific model of gate car to preserve. It's a shame that it never occurred to NYCTA to save any.
Leave those markers where they look better..haha.Rooves at proper height, a new coat of Pullman Green paint...3rd ave thru express coming!
Ah, if these marker lights could talk.... :-)
Can you imagine any piece of equipment in the entire New York City Transit System that saw near the diversity of service that those 1200/1400s that became Qs saw? The length and breadth of their service is really astonishing.
Indeed...even with a visit to a foreign railroad for 6 years! Caption in " the Brooklyn El book..."45th-3rd ave southbound..the Q's have made the big time!"
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
C'mon Ed, those Q's were representing BMT gate cars, and should have had their markers restored to their original position.
I personally thought that the inboard markers on the IRT cars looked dumb, but it was obvious that I was not used to them there.
Well of course if we wanted to be authentic---you're right, the BMT markers, most cars anyway, were outboard. Therefore so should the BU's such as they are have them there. Did you have to break my heart saying the IRT setup looked dumb? Alles in fun, trust me! Best wishes; big the IRT-MAN hattan L man born and raised in de Bronck!
Dumb was just the word I used, since I was accustomed to outboard markers. I'm sure that being used to inboard markers, the outboard location probably looked dumb to you.
Es tut mir leid!
A few inches can make quite a difference. The D-Types inevitably lose a door indicator light nder Propsect Park on the Brighton because a signal leans out a bit too much. It has to slow to a crawl leaving Kings Highway on the Clver (to Coney Island) because it might sideswipe a sign if it's going too fast and rocking a bit too much. Finally, we sideswiped the tunnel wall on oneof those overpasses ont he Sea Beach Line at the end of the Memorial Day fantrip because the train was rocking back and forth just a little too much.
--Mark
By "rocking" I suppose you mean the phenonmenon of "nosing," which is the tendency of a railcar to rock back and forth in a horizonal plane. The Triplexes (for all their excellences) were always terrible nosers. I was several times almost knocked off the edge of my aisle seat at the front while dozing because of a good SLAM when my Triplex was nosing a bit too much.
You're absolutely correct, a few inches CAN make a big difference.
If this were an ERA meeting, someone would make a sound effect
right about now.....
Anyway, an unmodified BU car will not clear most of the B division.
Paul has already listed the places where BUs ran. Don't take it for
granted that they could still fit there, though. For example, since
Low-Vs ran everywhere on the IRT, you'd think there wouldn't be any
clearance issues, but there are. This is because contractors are
given the envelope of current cars to work around for clearance
planning. Outboard marker lights are definitely outside of the
shape envelope of any cars produced in the last 50+ years. There
are places in the system where the roof of current cars clears by
just a few inches.
If one were to try and bring a BU car into the Transit Museum, the
upper deck roof would be planed off! As the story goes (I wasn't
around), in the mid 70s when the Transit Exhibit was getting started,
someone came to a board meeting at Branford and asked if they could
borrow one of the 1300s to display down there (much like "G" was
displayed in recent years). It took a while to convince them of
the clearance problems.
Unfortunately things didn't work out as planned. There were supposed
to be 2 complete Q sets saved, one of which would have been left
as a Q and the other back-dated to BU. Similarly, there were supposed
to be two sets of ABs, representing the unrebuilt style (the set
that is currently preserved in CI) and the modernized style (of
which 2775 wound up in Branford, other two cut).
In retrospect, the Q car set that became the BQs in the transit
museum should have been left alone to represent Qs, and the Q
single could have been back-dated more authentically. The roof
height can never be what it originally was and still have the car
clear into the Transit Museum at Court Street.
At the end on the Myrtle they were dirty, slow & more, BUT I'm glad that just by chance I got to ride on them from Jay Street to Middle Village.
Mr rt__:^)
I had the WONDERFUL experience about a year ago of talking to a former Myrtle motorman who did the MJ every day until almost his retirement. What he told me is that the Q's STILL had balls to the very end of their life, but you didn't DARE take the third notch after Broadyway southbound for fear that the vibration would collapse the damned El or the sway would take out a center platform. :)
But I had it on GOOD word that those puppies could STILL do 55 if you had big brass clangers and were all paid up with GOD. Heh.
Mot my memory. The deterioration in performance from the 1300s to the Q's was quite noticeable. I never had a ride on a Q on Myrtle that was better than ... well ... dignified.
Could be ... all I can do at the tender young age of 50 is pipe up some HEARSAY. Ain't got no "proff". :)
I think the Qs were still running when you were about ... um ... 17?
Yep, that'd be right ... and while they were like tortoises on the el, they did have some stones on the upper portion of the Myrtle line before going up over Broadway. That was why what I had been told sounded right based on what I remembered.
Due to leaving the city, I never got the chance to ride the Q's on the Myrt. I believe that the 1300 series gate cars were probably the only equipment used on the Myrt for about eight years before the arrival of the Q's. Before that they used gate cars in the 600, 900 & 1200 series.
I thought that all of the gate cars moved right along on the Myrt, but perhaps I was not as conscious of speed as you younger fellers.
Even so, there was something about the higher-pitched clacking sound the wooden cars made compaired with the metal cars on the M north of Myrtle that made the Qs just sound faster, especailly when they came around the curve into the Wyckoff Ave. station heading towards Jay Street.
Hmmm, that runs pretty much counter to what I've heard from motormen
who worked the Qs on the Myrtle.
First of all, by that point, the Qs had nothing resembling balls.
They were very slow trains. After the re-trucking, they had a pair
of 120hp motors under each motor car, vs the pair of 190hp
behemoths that they were built with. This, plus the inclusion of
a trailer for every two motor cars, left them severely underpowered.
On top of that, maintenance was not so hot, so there was a good chance
that at least one of the motor cars was dead.
The 1300s, OTOH, had been re-equipped with those 190hp WH300 motors,
whereas they were built with 150hp WH50 motors. They were over-
powered and indeed must have flew.
Another slight nit-pick: there was no third notch. Qs had only
two power positions: series and parallel. The switching position
on those flop-over "elevator"-style controllers was removed in the
1920s, we think because too many motormen were coasting in what they
thought was the center coast position but was in fact switching,
burning up grids. I've been told that SOP was to come in to the
station on the Myrtle el, get about half way in, then let go of
the controller handle, letting the train stop in emergency.
Maybe I misunderstood my buddy then. He did say that there were only two notches you could "use" so maybe what you're describing is what he actually meant, and your mention of the 190 motors vs. the 120's was what he meant in saying that they once DID have some "balls" ... the guy is no longer with us (died earlier this year) but remembered the "C" conversions and was an old-timey BMT'er. He *despised* the "transit authority" and would give me a hard time from his corner of the bar about "here comes that damned MTA kid again" ... heh.
As in he remembered the C types being converted, or he just
remembered them operating. If the former, then he must have been
REAL old!
I think he OPERATED them. He was 83 last year and worked for the BMT, then the BoT and then the transit authority. I think he retired in 1970 or thereabouts. Nice old guy. To put him in perspective, he always spoke fondly of working the "Culver taxi" ... and how the whole system went to hell when the city "stole it." :)
Just out of curiosity, what was the name of the Motorman on the Myrtle Ave. Line that operated the "Q" cars? When I was a kid I rode the Myrtle and knew a lot of Motormen.
Steve Santucci ...
I don't remember a motorman by that name. But I do remember Frank Carlino, J. Cartin, Albert Lukin. Also I knew Conductors by the names of Wm. Paskowitz and Barney (no last name). Ring any bells?
Unfortunately, no ... I worked the TA for a little under a year on the Brighton and none of those names came up that I can recall. Steve didn't like to talk much about his days in the TA and its predecessors. He was MUCH more into what was going on in Conrail and Amtrak and what happens when government tries to run a railroad. :)
Hell of a nice guy though - always busted my chops whenever I walked in, would buy me a beer and point to ME as a walking example of everything that went wrong with the railroad. Heh. I often think the only reason that he talked to me at all was because I passed his "test" on operating R1/9's, what he BARELY considered as "civilized trains" ... and heaven help you if you got him going on the "Evil IND" ... :)
Not as ugly as the 'C' types on Fulton. They were grotesque.
;-) Sparky
They were really bad, weren't they?
Can you imagine how many lookalike R-1/9 cars there might have been had the IND Second System been built?
Again, the signage is not identical -- sure, there's the standard white-on-black signage, but more underground stations sport their original platform signage now than they did in the 70's.
As for the rest, I'm afraid functionality rules the day. As well it should in this case, IMO.
Sorry for blaspheming, I live upstate. Been here for nearly 30 years now and every few days, I "discover" a new critter lurking about that I had no idea was living on my property. GOD thrives on variety and uniqueness and I have a personal "issue" with conformity and uniformity like so many pooted-out "extruded foods" ... don't mind me, it's a personal thing but every STAIN is unique. I get off on variety and DESPISE "McCulture" ... it's just me though.
The thing I hate is the system now sounds the same. All the cars utter the same sounds when they pull in/out of stations. They don't screech as they brake, the doors don't rattle when they open, and the brakes all sound alike, except for the R36's old SMEE sounds and the R44's gas-passing sound. I miss the Darth Vader R40/42, the whirring/belching of the R16's, the "whistling" R46's, etc.
Can't tell where you are these days, and I still don't get that diamond and circle nonsense ... when I lived in the city, each line had a different COLOR on BIG lit signs on the front that you could make out three stops down the line, you could tell the line by the car class (a 38 was an E, a 32 was a D or B, a 10 was an A and a 4/6 was a CC. No guesswork. Marker lights told you if it would be an express or local in the outer boroughs, we had it made.
"Please step into the Proctor Silex, watch the closing ports, no flashes please" ...
That was a good way of putting it, "I miss the Darth Vader R40/42." I remembered that low hum that they used to have. Guess that was the compressor. I liked the compressor sounds of the older equipment also. They caught a nice one on "The Taking of Pelham One, Two, Three" when the compressor cuts off. In the beginning when they are around Grand Central.
You know what I really miss?
I miss the sounds of having all the doors and windows open on the trains. Air conditioning was a necessary addition, however we lost something in the process.
I used to love to hear the sounds of a train of R16's, R27-30's, and the cars passing on the roadways outside, as a train would pass over the Williamsburg Bridge with all the windows and doors open. And the noisy fans!
There was no better feeling than chuging out to Rockaway on a train of R10's, in green scheme, clanking along, with all the windows and doors open, little fans whirling.
Also because all the windows and doors are now closed, you can never hear the flanges screaching in the tunnels. The tunnel rides also lost some feel, the lights don't flicker, there's less noise form the tunnels, and you hardly ever hear the screaching from the curves in the tunnels, or at least not like you used to when all the windows and doors were open. I'm not that old, but the younger railfans here probably never experienced those sounds, just like I never heard the sounds of the pre R10 cars!
If you had witnessed the clatter of gates, and the passing of the bell signals in the 1940's, I bet you would miss them too!
Unfortunately through no fault of your own you missed the best cars, all the pre-war stuff. The sounds and feels were great on them. The ceiling fans were much better than the small hanging desk fans that the R10-12's had. The R1-9's had the best sounds. Even when the trains were resting you heard the compressors go on & off and air hissing. I even miss the manual brake arm swinging and clanging as the train went fast. Even the doors opening and closing had distinctive sounds.
The interiors were all different too and each had its own flavor. The Standards had the two and three person forward seating which made the aisle snake instead of being straight. They and the triplexes had little windows into the motorman's cab just the right height for a little kid to see through. The "Q" cars on the Myrtle (my earliest cars) were more like railroad cars and had little private compartments at the ends of each car (presumably where the gate platforms once were)
Even the LIRR pre-war MU's had great sounds like the subways. As a kid I used to go to Hempstead Station where there were always a few trains on the storage tracks E/O the station and would listen to the compressors go on & off!!
Maybe thats why I like operating at Branford. Even though they rarely use the subway and el cars most of the trolleys sound just like them between the motors, brakes, and compressors. And with R9 1689 usually outside and the standard and old GM bus in the back its really great for memories. Every time I go there its a great experience.
Great post, thanks for the info! Incidentally, Anglefire wouldn't let direct links work (a screen that said that came up when I tried to click your sound link) But I did get it to work by "view source" and copying and pasting the link. Interesting whirling sound! So here is the link for those who it didn't get it to work from the direct link:
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/lowv.wav
I feel lucky to be old enough to remember the R-1/9s. Their marvelous sounds were music to my ears.
And I miss the thundering, rip-roaring R-10s on the A.
Well kind of anticlimactic, but here's "The Met" today: (well sort of today)
BOAR-ing. :)
You should have turned the camera to take in more of the platform.
All of those photos are posted on this site in the Broadway Brooklyn statiion by station section. I didn't take them. It seems that whoever took the picture was going for a view of the train, not the station.
Sorry, I thought that you had taken the picture. With this piece of thread about Metro Ave Station, I should have said someone should have taken a picture of of the modern platform.
Yeah, that was the best one I could find, without taking too much time to look for it. Like I said, that one was probably actually taken for the train picture, not the station view.
Heh. I always loved the old plank platforms where they existed - some on the Bronx IRT lines were MIGHTY ratty. Standing waiting for your train on some of the rotted timbers was amusing - while the sturctures were very solid, there was a nice "creakiness" to it that made it real for me. The one thing I don't miss from having split the city in '75 was I no longer find myself standing in the middle of an intersection in the Broad/Wall St area at sunrise shouting out "Where are the TREES?" or sitting there staring at steaming sidewalk looking at a sickly elm pooking out of a missing sidewalk square looking like hell, moth eaten and full of tent caterpillars.
What I'm trying to say is I really got OFF on those old wooden platforms, rickety or not, they had some SOUL. My ramblings "tonight" (I work nights) are my own lament about how the few things that I appreciated when I lived in the city that kept me sane before I said "Scroo this" and moved upstate have all seemingly vanished. I guess the perspective I'm trying to put across is lost among asphalt and cement as the environs. When I was a kid, I used to come upstate for a part of the summer and each year, I was more and more depressed coming back to the city for another school year and all the hassle.
But this whole Myrtle thing, the old Franklin Avenue shuttle, the Culver, the Nostalgia train and missing what once made life in the city TOLERABLE to me personally is all evaporating into a Burger King kinda motif is a bit upsetting. I loved the old stuff, and I realize that it'd be fiscally INSANE to try to maintain it, but it really had a charm and soul that I noted was rather lacking in the subways recently. And that's a shame. To me at least ...
Heh. I always loved the old plank platforms where they existed - some on the Bronx IRT lines were MIGHTY ratty. Standing waiting for your train on some of the rotted timbers was amusing - while the sturctures were very solid, there was a nice "creakiness" to it that made it real for me.
Speaking of woodened platforms, a few months back someone mentioned that Marcy Ave on the Broadway El sort of felt like it would fall down everytime a train would pull in, or that you would just fall right of the platform. This phot was posted in that thread.
IRT platforms were similar, except the boards were perpendicular to what you showed. And yeah, the steel swayed and all that too on either. Wasn't no big THANG ... it was that shaking that let you know a train was coming. :)
Ever walk on a bridge? Same deal ...
Selkirk, since you live by Albany have you ever gone to Saratoga Racetrack in August? Half of the grandstand is still made of wood and you can hear the creakiness as you walk.
Wouldn't go NEAR the place during "tourista season" ... the damned golf shirts could make ya blind. But yeah, been there for off-season concerts and such ... keep it quiet though, or Yonkers Construction will end up copping a contract to turn THAT into cement too. :)
It's funny to look at Metro and there is no sign of Metro Mall!
When they redid the East 105th Street station (in the 70s), they not only eliminated the grade crossing, they de-mapped Turnbull Avenue as well. No trace of it remains but maps continued to reference it, even into the 1980s
wayne
>>>they de-mapped Turnbull Avenue as well. No trace of it remains but maps continued to reference it, even
into the 1980s <<<
The folks at Hagstrom still believe it's there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Some Hagstrom maps are so outdated that they need to be adjusted for continental drift.
That was one INCREDIBLY NEAT little stop while it lasted and the RR crossing for a SUBWAY LINE made it all the better. I'd get off the train just to hang out there for a while. Sorry it's all gone. I was very disappointed when BMTman, Harry B, Bill N, HeyPaul, and Nancy and I got out there and not only was it gone, but all traces of where it HAD been were obliterated. That was one of my favorite places in the system when I was young.
And I love the "on the ground" bit of the title - has special meaning to railroaders and not a good thing. :)
And I love the "on the ground" bit of the title - has special meaning to railroaders and not a good thing. :)
Hmmm, not a good thing, okay, you got my interest......
When you derail, you're charged with "putting it on the ground." It's up to you and the board of inquiry to blame someone else, like perhaps a signalman a few feet from the wreck who was eating his lunch in the company truck. There's an old saying in the railroad industry, "whoever was CLOSEST to the wreck was responsible for it all." :)
lol! Well I guess it should have been called...on the surface.
No problem ... those of us who have spent time in a cab (ones NOT serviced by the Taxi and Limousine Commission) snickered at that little bit in the title, I'm sure. :)
Fresh Pond Road is elevated. As the train leaves the station going to Metro, it goes down an incline, makes a left hand turn and crosses over the NY&A yard/LIRR Montauk line before it pulls into Metro.
Was there a connection between the subway and the railroad? It would have been a long time ago.
I've never seen any LIRR/BMT connection at this spot, nor any trace of one which may have existed in the past.
I didn't think so either. It's just a nagging question I always had.
According to "The Tracks of New York Number 2" there was no connection or evidence of a connection as of 1910. My guess is there never was.
Roads of different ownership (LIRR, BRT) often didn't have track connections, unless there was an important interchange. For example, there was no connection between the Brighton Line and the Manhattan Beach at Manhattan Junction (between H and I). Later there was a connection, but only for purposes of temporary operation.
I believe the publication above is to be (or has been) reprinted. Every BMT fan should have one. Pages 30-31 have some excellent pictures of Myrtle extension being constructed as well as Lutheran Yard when Myrtle was on the surface.
The picture of the old Glendale station is fascinating, since the area has not changed appreciably since 1906.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, and some of those buildings are still there!
Maybe with luck there will be some pix out someday showing the West End and Culver with surface running. Somewhere I have a photo of a 5 car BU running down the middle of the street in Boro Park...qute developed then and wonder how there weren't a lot of accidents..but of course safety prevailed and the lines were elevated in entirety in a few more years.
Now that I would love to see! The reason I liked the one from the Forest station is because you can still recognize the spot, the buildings are still there. It would be fascinating to see the Culver or West End on the surface. I also like the reverse.....like photos of Jamaica with the el still there. Like photos of the Bowling alley next to the Metro Ave station on the J or photos of the Valencia theather with the el still running past.
Damn, that picture brought back memories....
Thanks.
Not as populous as now. A mere fraction of the traffic you have now. They didn't run all that fast in the street. Maybe 30 MPH tops. There were clear sight lines in most places.
When you think about it, why would BUs in street running be any more dangerous than tractor-trailers or even buses in today's more crowded streets?
BU's did have a nasty habit of requiring the operator to count to FIVE before the steel would apply to the wheels. Today's brakes are a LOT faster. Just a thought ...
Well, part of my point is that kids knew not run in front of a BU train just as they know not to run in front of a tractor-trailer.
Back when the BU's ran, I'd agree. Not so sure these days. If the BU's were street-running today, I wonder how many baby carriages would be 12-9'd. :)
And worse come to worse the "big hole" would stop even the BU's pretty quickly. Agreed the area is a lot more developed and busy today.
I can not see a train of 8 R40 Slants Running along the Myrtle Avenue Line In The Street?
But if you did, would you faint dead away because you forgot your camera? ;-)
I had a weird dream once in which Flushing trains ran at ground level past Shea Stadium. The R-36s had pantographs and loud diesel horns.
The Albany trip report posting below mentions a pair of Lackawanna MU cars on display (in storage?) somewhere in the area of Croton-Harmon Yard. I've heard of these cars before, but I've never seen photos or solid information regarding them. Does anyone have photos or car numbers for these two? Thanks!!
Frank Hicks
Frank, I believe the ones he's referring to are on the east side of the tracks adjacent to a former station structure (?) that is now used as offices. Somewhere I've got some pictures (taken within the past five or six years) but they're in the great "unlabelled" yellow boxes (of which I've only got about 1000) so I can't lay hands on them right now. Don't remember if the numbers are visible or not.
They are quite accessible from route 9 so if you're in the area with a car you should be able to find them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
they are next to the old croton north station building, right across from the freight yard. there's a driveway if you're coming south on the little service type lane on rt. 9
That's the spot...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I noticed on the southbound platform that it had been turned into a veritable Hollywood set this morning. Director's chairs, cameras on booms, lots of extra lighting and an R68 signed up as an F partially inside the station on the express track. My guess is a movie, not a television show.
No service between Grand Central and Atlantic. 7th Ave. was clogged with wayward #5 trains, but no announcements actually said what the problem was.
I heard on 1010 WINS (12 noon) a police action at Bleecker St. Unknown exatly what it was.
12-9
That would make it the Second one since Saturday.
According to the reports a destraught person was walking in the tunnel, presumably with suicide on his mind - according to news reports. Where was the 12-9 Saturday?
The 12-9 Saturday was at E 149 Street on the No.6 Line. It happened at 3:20PM.
I'm distraught but I don't walk in tunnels or step in front of moving yellow cabs driven by 'thankyouverrrrrymuch.'
Someone was hit by a train?
- Lyle Goldman
12-9 is the TA Radio Code for "Customer Under Train". Most people on this board use that code instead of saying someone was hit by a subway train.
That has a little more decorum than''someone got hit by a train?''
You have a better idea?
>>>"12-9 is the TA Radio Code for "Customer Under Train".<<<
What if its a TA employee or contractor in lieu of a customer,
is not "Person Under Train" more correct. I know, picky, picky >G<
;-) Sparky
Time for a customer service lesson! There are two types of customers of any buainess. Internal- employees of the business and External- those not employed by the business. External customer includes contractors.
If Train Dude were to visit one of my stations and approach the booth with a question, he would be an internal customer. If a contractor approached the booth with a question they are an external customer.
Just stating what the rule book says, take it up with the TA.
O.K., so in future posts of 12~9s, we should make an attempt to note if it was an "internal" or "external" customer.
I know it's warm, so I am cracking some nuts.
;-) Sparky
Excuse me but I don't believe that the 12-9 code was worded as such to make the distinction between customer and employee. To the best of my knowledge, we'd still use the 12-9 code.
Looking into my crystal ball, I see a lawsuit in the TA's future. It doesn't make any difference that the TA may not have been at fault. This reminds me of earlier messages where somebody was sleeping on the track, hit by a train, and collected ($12 million?).
Michael
Washington, DC
I believe there was a story of a couple actually having sex on the spur track at Canal/Centre, getting hit by a train, and collecting a large cash reward.
LMAO!!!
Didn't someone mention to them that to bless the cab one had to be the other side of the windshield?
I wonder if they hit the tripper on the train and caused a BIE. I'd love to hear the motorman call that report in.
Michael
That was a while ago. They had dragged a mattress to the roadbed between (I think) Canal and Bowery. They were at it believing a train wouldn't be coming by. But a train did. I think one of them lost part of a foot. I don't know if it went to court.
Union Square. Downtown 'Q,W,N,R' lines. 5:15 PM Monday. I am patiently waiting for an express train to take me down to Canal st. The Platform is very crowded. First train that comes is a 'W' on the express track, it too is crowded. I notice it is a set of R68A's. Anyway, I get on and all the roll signs on the inside said 'N'. The first thing I hear is next stop is PRINCE ST. People got confused and I start nodding my head. Doors close, train moves. "Next Stop Canal St" It would have been nice to say this BEFORE the doors closed. Nice thing I know all the track switches along the lines I ride. Someone was not paying attention when they changed the roll signs on that R68A. Talk about confusion. Been riding the subway since I was a kid. Never in my life have I seen a front roll sign (In this case 'W') disagree with the rest of the train (N).
Anyone else on that "mix" train?
I've seen nonsense like that on the "E" and "F" lines back in my commuting days. Better still is a Slant 40, totally unmarked, and some wearing upside-down or misaligned "S" signs, in service on the "EE"! BTW the front sign was missing (just bare flourescent tubes visible) and the back was half "F" half "S". I did not get the whole train's numbers, the ones I got were newly-delivered R40 AC (4500 series).
wayne
I remember in 1986, while riding on a Manhattan-bound F, the train was "switched" to an N at Forest Hills for some reason. The conductor had to say "N, N, N, Nancy, not F to Coney Island" at every stop. At Elmhurst Ave, the train operator changed the front bulkhead sign to an N, which only made it more confusing. People in the station saw "N" on the front, but "F" on the sides. Needless to say, it took a long time to get to Coney Island.
last year i saw a set of r68s with D as the front signs, And B 145th-34th as the side signs. it was running on the 6th ave shuttle
That was due to a shuttle train going out of service. At the time the shuttle needed four trains to make service and the B and D both had extras. If something happened to a shuttle, an R68 was 'borrowed' while the gap train on the B/D was put in service. Problem was that shuttle schedules didn't allow time for changing bulkhead signs, never mind side signs.
>>JULY 15TH, 2002
It was anything but a normal Monday morning commute for one straphanger who actually gave birth in the subway in Manhattan.
Police Officer Harlan Hyans sprang into action after he discovered Barbara Rijos yelling for help on the station stairs at the Whitehall Street station in Lower Manhattan this morning. Rijos had gone into labor and was on her way from the Bronx to St. Vincent's Hospital on Staten Island, but didn't quite make it.
“When I got off the N train I started having contractions, and I just pushed out,” said Rijos. “Another gentleman that was coming up the stairs asked me what was wrong and I said, ‘I had my baby already.’ He went and looked for the officer, and he came as soon as possible.”
“It’s a real miracle, and it's good when things happen that are good instead of bad all the time,” added Officer Hyans. “She’s a beautiful baby, and thank God everything worked out good.”
Mother and baby are healthy and resting at NYU Downtown Hospital. The baby weighs 7 pounds and was named Honesty.<<
From NY1. Something to warm the hearts of others
Police Officer Harlan Hyans sprang into action after he discovered Barbara Rijos yelling for help on the station stairs at the Whitehall Street station in Lower Manhattan this morning. Rijos had gone into labor and was on her way from the Bronx to St. Vincent's Hospital on Staten Island, but didn't quite make it.
Now that is an example of absurd planning. What, there aren't any hospitals closer to the Bronx????
Some hospitals are better than others. Sometimes you have to travel a bit to get to it.
Umm...there are some very good hospitals on the Bronx. And on her way to Staten island, she passed how many hospitals in Manhattan? Perhaps she had family in SI and wanted to be near them.
This is Keith's wife. I gave birth in a hospital in Manhattan, and I think Witehall Station would have been a better choice.
Vanya
Well (wandering even farther off topic), after our experience with the birth of our oldest in a military hospital, the next two of our four children were born at home, and our youngest would have been born in a birthing center (due to some known risk factors that made a home birth a less desirable choice) except that he didn't want to wait so he was born in the parking lot of the Apex Rescue Squad in Apex, North Carolina. So I can certainly understand wanting to choose your place! (Incidentally, our older daughter - the one born in a military hospital - had both of her children at home.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yea i heard, john muller from the WB11 morning news said they should call her baby N and R or baby IRT! what a CORNBALL!!! everyone knows N and R is NOT IRT U DOOF!!!!
I guess John M. doesn't.
Keith's wife again. Douce Man, you don't happen to know of a hospital that is OK give birth in do you? I'm afraid to get pregnant again until I find one because my experience was so horrible, and anyone I talk to seems to have had even worse horror stories at different Manhattan hospitals.
I don't know of any hospitals I would prefer to hae a child. >g< All I know is a woman who lives in the Bronx was trying to get to St Vincent's in Staten Island and didn't make it to the ferry. I don't know why she had to go so far. She had her reasons. Hopefully Beekman Downtown was a good substitute.
Otherwise ask around about what hospitals are good and bad.
Anyone I ask says things like "They couldn't find the anesthesiologist, and then they didn't notice the baby was in the wrong position, so in the end they used forceps and tore me through the anus and scratched up my baby with no pain killer and for no good reason." That's giving birth in NYC.
-Vanya
Maybe she was in the HMO from hell; St Vince is the only hospital in the city that participates?
"Now that is an example of absurd planning. What, there aren't any hospitals closer to the Bronx???? "
Peter -- you should know better. Pregnant women do not make reasonable decisions.
When my wife and I moved out to Long Island she was 6 mos. pregnant. She had no desire to switch ob/gyns and insisted on having the baby in the city, despite having an excellent hospital less than 2 miles away.
Since this was our first child, and I had little experience with such matters, I attempted to reason with her. Big mistake.
Of course, the fact that she did give birth in the city (Beth Israel) gave me some good railfanning opportunities each day on the way into the hospital -- LIRR to ENY, then L to 1st Ave. was a good one -- that I didn't normally have.
CG
not that it really matters, but why didn't you do LIRR to Penn, 7th avenue express to 14th, and then the L over? It's an additional train, but you avoid having to go outside at ENY, which isn't a great neighborhood, and it's probably faster too.
I did that one too. I was just using the opportunity to railfan a bit.
CG
"When my wife and I moved out to Long Island she was 6 mos. pregnant. She had no desire to switch ob/gyns and insisted on having the baby in the city, despite having an excellent hospital less than 2 miles away."
She would not have been able to find another OB/GYN to take her. I tried that after firing my 1st OB/GYN and had a hell of a time finding another practice that would take me. They like to make money on the early appointments, which they really only have to show up to (late) to collect money for, to make up for having to be at the birth, which is messy, unpredictable, and subjects them to possible malpractice liability (since they seem to invariably screw something up).
Y could i not B that lucky ...??
@.....born in a hospital in nyc ......ugh !!
I got Blessed with the sweetest RDO job Ever. I was actually on the Movie train.Its a Woody Allen Movie,Got Paid all day to move R 68's 6 feet .It was filmed on Church ave and Bergen Lower.The Conductor and I had Free lunch ,drinks and offers to attend an after party.I never seemed to realize Church ave on the F is Kind of Deserted during the afternoons ,Plus the Neighborhood doesnt look to friendly.Lots of Teenagers and Beer bottles everywhere.
Can you give us some more information on the movie? Like, what's it called, and what it's about?
- Lyle Goldman
cool!
6688 has been rented for a couple of hours this Thursday.
oooooo Can we have your autograph?
Heh. Get that man a can of spray paint. :)
So, what' the name of the flick?
I seem to recall that Woody Allen is very secretive about his movies. Will not reveal the name until its ready for release. Will film scences out of order so nobody can figure out the story line and does other obfuscating things to keep things under wraps.
I believe he calls his movies something like "Fall 20xx project" until he names them.
I think a lot of movies are filmed out of order, because it makes it easier sometimes. Especially if 2 or more scenes from different parts of the movie are in the same location, they film it at the same time.
Yep. But then you wind up with HUGE continuity issues, like the length of a character's hair (usually not noticable) to the kind of continuity errors, the truck chase scene in Terminator 2.
-Hank
Yep. But then you wind up with HUGE continuity issues, like the length of a character's hair (usually not noticable) to the kind of continuity errors, the truck chase scene in Terminator 2.
And thing like that make nitpickers.com so much fun!
Lots of Teenagers
Lots of Teenagers
Is that a problem?
If there weren't lots of teenagers today, there wouldn't be very many adults a few years from now.
I'm sure Woody liked that. Any of the teens Asian?
Did the same thing several years back. Was one of the T/O's for "Gloria" w/ Sharon Stone. Only saw her briefly from a distance. We were set up on the northbound and had 4 slants. Filmed the train wrong-railing into the station on 4 track. No party.
Was it only a one day thing or can we still go out and perhaps see some more stuff being shot?
Was Church Ave open for regular revenue trains on the platform on which this was being filmed?
--Mark
THESE PRETZELS ARE MAKING ME THIRSTY!
I saw that episode a few days ago, and I don't really watch Seinfeld.
For those of us who are tube travellers, read below for some very good, original and funny announcements of why we have delays. Otherwise known as Management failures!
Those of you who suffer the underground will find this a laugh, it's a list of actual announcements that Tube train drivers have made to their passengers. For those of you on the MTA, ADAPT. :)
"Your delay this evening is caused by the line controller suffering from
elbow and backside syndrome, not knowing his elbow from his backside.
I'll let you know any further information as soon as I'm given any."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, I do apologise for the delay to your service. I
know you're all dying to get home, unless, of course, you happen to be
married to my ex-wife, in which case you'll want to cross over to the
Westbound and go in the opposite direction".
"Please allow the doors to close. Try not to confuse this with 'Please
hold the doors open'. The two are distinct and separate instructions."
During an extremely hot rush hour on the Central Line, the driver
announced in a West Indian drawl 'step right this way for the sauna,
ladies and gennelmun... unfortunately towels are not provided'.
"Please note that the beeping noise coming from the doors means that the
doors are about to close. It does not mean throw yourself or your bags
into the doors."
"May I remind all passengers that there is strictly no smoking allowed on
any part of the Underground. However, if you are smoking a joint it is
only fair that you pass it round the rest of the carriage".
"Do you want the good news first or the bad news? The good news is that
last Friday was my birthday and I hit the town and had a great time. The
bad news is that there is a points failure somewhere between Stratford
and East Ham, which means we probably won't reach our destination."
"Ladies and gentlemen, we apologise for the delay, but there is a
security alert at Victoria station and we are therefore stuck here for
the foreseeable future, so let's take our minds off it and pass some time
together. All together now.... Ten green bottles, hanging on a wall...."
"We are now travelling through Baker Street, as you can see Baker Street
is closed. It would have been nice if they had actually told me, so I
could tell you, but no, they don't think about things like that"
"This is a customer announcement, please note that the big slidy things
are the doors, the big slidy things are the doors".
"Apparently, this train is no longer terminating at Barking, but is in
fact, terminating here. I'm sorry about this but I too was under the
impression that this train was going to Barking, but 'they' have other
ideas. I mean, why tell me - I'm merely the driver..."
'We can't move off because some c*** has their f***ing hand stuck in the
door' 'let the passengers off the train FIRST!' He gave up... 'Go on
then, stuff yourselves in like sardines, see if I care, I'm going home.'
Cue uproarious laughter from the whole station.
"to the gentleman wearing the long grey coat trying to get on the second
carriage, what part of 'stand clear of the doors' don't you understand."
Beggars are operating on this train, please do NOT encourage these
professional
beggars, if you have any spare change, please give it to a registered charity, failing that, give it to me!"
If I was adopt these sayings for use in the TA, At the first use of such a saying, I would likely be taken out of service pending dismissal with a footprint applied to my backside.
I don't know that is true. I've heard lots of weird announcements on the MBTA, including "Today is hug a coworker day"...
Heh. Well, once upon a time when supervision was out RUNNING TRAINS because of a shortage of motormen and conductors, I actually had the STONES to say similar things on the PA when I was on a train that had one. (usually worked R9's) And yeah, I got some royal chewing out and put onto "personal supervision" (A/K/A "if this mofo is about to board a 32, MAKE him fall back one and send the NEXT C/R out on this interval and ***NOT*** him!") ... but I kept my geese amused. :)
very funny 'Kirk.....its guys like you that keep me coming back here...and Harry's place...
If ya can't have some FUN when you wake up, ain't no point in waking up. Word. :)
If I was adopt these sayings for use in the TA, At the first use of such a saying, I would likely be taken out of service pending dismissal with a footprint applied to my backside.
Well that just shows that the TA are pillocks! London wouldn't be the same without the amusing Underground announcements. Last time I was in London, there weren't any mega-funnies, but did get one very confused announcement (clue: I was actually going from Charing X to Marylebone):
"This is a Piccadilly Line Train to Willesden Junction."
"This is a Piccadilly Line Train to Willesden Junction."
Sounds like the same fuck-up as they are having on the R142's. Similar incident occured on GNER, except on their printed destination slips. One train said:
Calling at:
Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Oxwellmains Down Goods Loop, Berwick-upon Tweed, Edinburgh, and Glasgow Central.
AEM7
Sounds like the same fuck-up as they are having on the R142's.
Except this was a live, human fuck-up (It'd have been brilliant if he'd announced Bakerloo Circus in the same announcement, but sadly he didn't fuck that bit up). I'd hate to think what an R142 would think of the Bakerloo Line. Southbound would be easy enough - it'd just have to display Elephant & Castle. Northbound would be another matter - Harrow & Wealdstone, plus short turns at: Stonebridge Park, Willesden Junction, Queens Park.
Really I don't know why LU doesn't give the trains letters to identify them by. It'd make stations like Earl's Court so much easier.
Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Oxwellmains Down Goods Loop, Berwick-upon Tweed, Edinburgh, and Glasgow Central.
Where the hell is Oxwellmains, incidentally? I can't find it on any map. This isn't another Cold Meece type thing, is it?
(For those who don't know - Cold Meece is a village in North Staffordshire, near Newcastle-under-Lyme/Stoke-upon-Trent, where the government put a "secret" facility during WW2. This facility, which has only recently begun to appear on maps included a very large railway station on its own branch off the Stoke - Stafford Line which didn't appear in timetables and officiallly "didn't exist". It's amazing the government managed to cover up something so large!)
I've never understood the GNER's fixation with stopping all its trains at Peterborough - I mean, why not Doncaster, Newark, Grantham, or Corby, - hell - even sodding Retford. It's not like Peterborough has been all that significant a place since the Middle Ages. It's definitely not up to a real city like Leicester or Coventry.
The best typo I saw on a mainline train in the UK was one of the paper notices on the side of Virgin Cross Country Trains:
NEWCASTLE TO PENANCE
calling at: Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Wakefield Westgate, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Burton-upon-Trent, Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads, Exeter St David's, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Plymouth, St Austell, Truro, and Penzance.
Quite some penance.
I have my own letter shorthand for LU trains:
A-Piccadilly
B-Bakerloo
C-Circle
D-Central
E-Victoria
F-Metropolitan
G-District (main service)
H-Northern via Bank
I-(Moorgate GN to Highbury/Islington)
J-Jubilee
K-East London
L-DLR-Lewisham
M-Hammersmith & City
N-Northern via Charing X
O-Waterloo & City
P-District-Edgware Road
Q-future
R-DLR-Beckton
S-Kensington Olympia shuttle
T-Tramlink
wayne
A letter system for London would need to be monstrous if it were to achieve much, e.g.:
BB - Bakerloo Line
CA - Central Line (W Ruislip Branch - Epping Branch)
CB - Central Line (Ealing Bway Branch - Epping Branch)
CC - Central Line (W Ruislip Branch - Hainault Branch)
CD - Central Line (Ealing Bway Branch - Hainault Branch)
CE - Central Line (Miscellaneous)
CF - Central Line (Woodford - Hainault)
CI - Circle Line (Inner Rail)
CO - Circle Line (Outer Rail)
CS - Ongar Shuttle (RIP)
DA - District Line (Wimbledon Branch)
DB - District Line (Wimbledon Branch - Edgware Rd Branch)
DC - District Line (Richmond Branch)
DE - District Line (Ealing Bway Branch)
DG - District Line (Olympia Branch)
DH - District Line (Olympia Branch - Edgware Rd Branch)
JJ - Jubilee Line
MA - Metropolitan Line (Amersham Branch)
MB - Metropolitan Line (Amersham Branch Fast)
MC - Metropolitan Line (Chesham Branch)
MD - Metropolitan Line (Watford Branch)
ME - Metropolitan Line (Watford Branch Semi-Fast)
MF - Metropolitan Line (Uxbridge Branch)
MG - Metropolitan Line (Miscellaneous)
MH - Hammersmith & City Line
NA - Northern Line (Edgware Branch - Charing X Branch)
NB - Northern Line (Edgware Branch - Bank Branch)
NC - Northern Line (Mill Hill Branch - Charing X Branch)
ND - Northern Line (Mill Hill Branch - Bank Branch)
NE - Northern Line (Barnet Branch - Charing X Branch)
NF - Northern Line (Barnet Branch- Bank Branch)
NG - Northern City Line
PA - Piccadilly Line (Heathrow Branch)
PB - Piccadilly Line (Rayner's Lane Branch)
PS - Aldwych Shuttle (RIP)
VV - Victoria Line
ZA - DLR (Stratford Branch - Tower Gateway)
ZB - DLR (Stratford Branch - Bank)
ZC - DLR (Stratford Branch - Lewisham Branch)
ZD - DLR (Beckton Branch - Tower Gateway)
ZE - DLR (Beckton Branch - Bank)
ZF - DLR (Beckton Branch - Lewisham Branch)
ZG - DLR (Lewisham Branch - Tower Gateway)
ZH - DLR (Lewisham Branch - Bank)
Well, that's covering all the bases for sure,
You could further distinguish lines like
the Bakerloo BA for Queens Park, BB for Harrow & Wealdstone etc.
wayne
Oxwellmains
It's by Torness on the A1 I think, by the power plant or near there. Nothing much there except an old coal mine (and a Goods Loop). I messed up the mess up -- it should have been between Berwick and Edinburgh.
I've never understood the GNER's fixation with stopping all its trains at Peterborough
The "crack" trains do not stop at P'borough. The Scottish Pullman, for example, is a first stop York (or at least was before Hatfield). The other trains stop at P'borough because WAGN terminates there. It stops for the same reason as Amtrak stops their NEC trains at New Carrolton, MD; Wilmington, DE; Trenton NJ and Providence RI.
why not Doncaster, Newark, Grantham, or Corby, - hell - even sodding Retford.
Corby is not on the ECML.
The ECML has needed reforms for a long time. In fact, practically since it was built, it needed changes. I assume you are familiar with the ECML upgrade programme. Welwyn has needed a new viaduct since the 1940's, and the power supply and signal capacities beyond Peterborough is really quite appaling. The reason the WAGN's terminate at P'borough is not because they want or should terminate there... it's because they can't get beyond there without capacity upgrades!
GNER no longer stop their peak trains in P'borough due to a loading problem with long-distance commuters misusing GNER trains for commuting purposes.
If GNER really wants to be a serious long distance operator, they probably need to really differentiate their long distance trains with their local hops. That said, the local passenger is actually the intercity train's best friend. Many significant transfers occur at P'borough (which is a Central Trains hub) and many more at Doncaster (which is a Northern Spirit hub). If I were going to discontinue stops on GNER, I would probably do so at places like Newark and Retford because they do not represent connecting opportunities. But this also means captive customers, so I will run the locals to carry those people.
The GNER issue is a part of a wider issue of multi-carrier revenue attribution and sharing. Suffices to say their current ORCATS system can be gamed quite easily and it's a problem even on the German national railways. So much for open access.
AEM7
Corby is not on the ECML.
Interestingly, the (now closed) station is, but the town is nowhere near it. For some reason the original name of Corby Glen station was Corby. The town of Corby (20 miles away) was served by the Weldon & Corby station on the Midland Railway. Anyway, that was an oops - I was looking at a map which only had railways on it and got carried away!
it's because they can't get beyond there without capacity upgrades!
One capacity upgrade should be restoring the Newark - Market Harborough Line (preferably with the spur to Leicester Belgrave Road) so that some trains can be diverted onto the Midland "main" line. Even better just divert the sodding things after York via Sheffield Midland and Leicester London Road.
GNER no longer stop their peak trains in P'borough due to a loading problem with long-distance commuters misusing GNER trains for commuting purposes.
I don't get how that's misuse. It's absolutely permitted. In fact it's promoted on the Cov - B'ham NS - Wolves Line.
If GNER really wants to be a serious long distance operator, they probably need to really differentiate their long distance trains with their local hops.
They aren't as bad with that as Virgin Cross Country. Anyway, there simply aren't local trains in certain places (thank you Dr. Beeching).
The GNER issue is a part of a wider issue of multi-carrier revenue attribution and sharing.
I'm very much pro-nationalisation myself. Then that problem would disappear.
I don't get how that's misuse. It's absolutely permitted. In fact it's promoted on the Cov - B'ham NS - Wolves Line.
a seat out of London with a commuter is a displaced customer who is wishing to travel from London to the North. The traveller from London to the North is paying more money, also is making better use of a scarce resource (seating capacity). In other words, the consumer surplus is greater when the long-distance traveller takes the seat (even though the commuter may give higher yields). That also means GNER recovers more profits from the long-distance customer. Therefore commuters should be banned from GNER trains, as invariably there are more demand at peak times than can be catered for.
I'm very much pro-nationalisation myself. Then [the revenue attribution] problem would disappear.
In fact, re-nationalization would make the problem worse. There is no accountability and no basis on which to make business decisions in a nationalized railroad. Not only are the revenues not attributed to any particular flows, they are not managed! Before anyone interprets this as an anti-Amtrak sentiment, it isn't. Amtrak uses business sector management, which is something that I strongly believed under BR. Socialists often do not realize the importance of micro-privatization and its revenue and cost management functions.
At least under the present regime, people are paying attention to the market demands even if it is a distorted market.
AEM7
People will also be joining at Peterborough to head north, from Ipswich, Norwich and Cambridge. My recollection of the ECML from 10 years ago was that the trains were full to standing all the way most of the day.
People will also be joining at Peterborough to head north, from Ipswich, Norwich and Cambridge.
Read my previous post regarding connecting traffic.
Read my previous post (2 weeks ago) about peak capacity and electricity charges at peak times.
AEM7
That also means GNER recovers more profits from the long-distance customer.
That just means that long distance fares in the UK are extortionate. Okay, some local fares are very low - the West Midlands is a great example of cheap local fares as far as Stourbridge Junction, but as soon as you go one stop further to Hagley the price rockets.
Therefore commuters should be banned from GNER trains, as invariably there are more demand at peak times than can be catered for.
Ever heard of standing? Not everyone has to get a seat on a train. If you're saying more people would fit on a commuter train between P'boro and King's X, then perhaps the expresses at peak times should terminate at P'boro to allow more room for commuter service. If you're saying more people would fit on the express train, then it's only right that commuters are allowed on.
There is no accountability and no basis on which to make business decisions in a nationalized railroad.
Not as BR was. What is actually needed is a railway dictated by a Minister from Whitehall to satisfy the social need for transport provision. All other Europeanq countries have seen the obvious merits of a nationalised railway. It doesn't help the private sector's case that the private companies running the railways at the moment are a load of nancies. They will not take any risks to invest in the railway. If they will not, then the people should. Accountability is obvious: the Minister is accountable to Parliament of which each Member is accountable to his/her constituents. This is economics in its correct place: as a tool of politics. It has been the great mistake of the modern age to put those the other way round.
At least under the present regime, people are paying attention to the market demands even if it is a distorted market.
That's right, they're paying attention to distortions and not acting as an agent of social and political policy.
Socialists often do not realize the importance of micro-privatization and its revenue and cost management functions.
I am not a ****ing Marxist.
...Okay, some local fares are very low - the West Midlands is a great example of cheap local fares as far as Stourbridge Junction, but as soon as you go one stop further to Hagley the price rockets.
This is an example of zone boundry. Stourbridge Jct is in the Midlands PTE zone where the fare is subsidized. Beyond that point, the fare being charged are the true costs plus a profit margin. True costs should be charged. Subsidizing transportation leads to overconsumption of transportation relative to say, food and housing. (That's another topic).
Ever heard of standing?
It is not acceptable for the high-revenue intercity passengers to have to put up with people standing in the corridors so they are unable to access the cafe car, for example. The incremental revenue generated by the standing commuters is insufficient to cover the potential loss of long-haul passengers due to degraded level of service.
then perhaps the expresses at peak times should terminate at P'boro to allow more room for commuter service.
As it happens, for outbound expresses, peak time on those trains are also peak time on suburban trains. Economics dictates the train path goes out to the highest bidder. Since intercity trains have far higher revenue potential, the train paths could be priced accordingly and thus the long distance trains take precedence.
However, there are probably special cases here and there where the commuter train actually generates more revenue per track path. If this can be shown to be the case, then I'm quite happy to hold the 17.00 ex-KGX for EDI and 17.10 ex-KGX for LDS until 17.25 and 17.35, but only if the 17.00 WAGN train recovers more revenue for that 17.00 train path.
If you're saying more people would fit on the express train, then it's only right that commuters are allowed on.
The object of the railroad is to generate maximum revenue at constant costs, and not to carry the maximum number of people.
...the Minister is accountable to Parliament of which each Member is accountable to his/her constituents.
If you really think that, you need a refresher course in real life. What happened to your cynicism? Was Margaret Thatcher held accountable for her actions by her constituents? She may have left office, but is that accountability? Losing office? Had the schemes that she had implemented which had not been considered for the greater good, been reversed?
That's right, they're paying attention to distortions and not acting as an agent of social and political policy.
Social and political policy can go f**k themselves. Money talks, and will continue to talk. Don't forget, most of Britain's social policy was written by a bunch of mungoheads studying at the supposedly-prestigious institutions of Oxford and Cambridge. Most of them have no idea of what real life is, on the floor level. Whilst some academics have truly attempted to analytically work out a socially optimal system, most of them don't know diddly squat. Just how you can entrust your welfare to these academics (and not $$ in your pocket), is beyond me.
AEM7
(a graduate of Trinity Hall, Cantab., so I am qualified to speak about my fellow alumnis in this way.)
This is an example of zone boundry. Stourbridge Jct is in the Midlands PTE zone where the fare is subsidized. Beyond that point, the fare being charged are the true costs plus a profit margin. True costs should be charged. Subsidizing transportation leads to overconsumption of transportation relative to say, food and housing. (That's another topic).
I'd subsidise te lot properly, not just the West Mids. The "zone boundary" has a very odd effect - buy a ticket from Stourbridge Junction to University - the route on the ticket they'll sell you is via Birmingham, often with a transfer between the two main stations. It is actually WAY easier to go via Droitwich Spa, but then they screw you for extra fare because of the silly boundary. The actual cheap way of doing that if you do it at all regularly is to extend your Centrocard to Droitwich Spa (at a cost of about £15 a month). The boundaries of the West Midlands PTE were based upon a stupid 1970s notion of "Metropolitan Counties" - a better definition of the West Midlands would be the area between the Welsh border and Watling Street, certainly in terms of transport.
It is not acceptable for the high-revenue intercity passengers to have to put up with people standing in the corridors so they are unable to access the cafe car, for example. The incremental revenue generated by the standing commuters is insufficient to cover the potential loss of long-haul passengers due to degraded level of service.
Bovine verbal excrement. If there aren't people standing, the train's too long. Standing is considered wholly acceptable and a reality on the South Wales Main Line - I've stood from Swansea (High Street) to Bristol Parkway before - it's really not too bad. ECML riders should get used to reality and stop whining. There's always the M1 instead for them. They don't even have to pay to cross the Severn.
Plus, why would anyone want to use one of those overpriced buffet cars with food that tastes of cardboard and coffee that tastes of nothing, but is served too hot.
As it happens, for outbound expresses, peak time on those trains are also peak time on suburban trains. Economics dictates the train path goes out to the highest bidder. Since intercity trains have far higher revenue potential, the train paths could be priced accordingly and thus the long distance trains take precedence.
Long distance an hour difference is no difference - local it's a hell of a difference. If there's not enough capacity between 5:30pm and 6:30pm on the ECML, then Expresses should not be run until 6:30pm. The point of a local train is that it serves more people by calling at more stations. King's X could do with some proper DMUs to give good Local and Semi-Fast services like there are out of Marylebone and St Pancras. Express is a bonus - because of lack of both competition and regulation, they have become ridiculously overpriced (compare ticket prices in Spain and Italy, both of which run better railways than the UK, both state monopolies), but the primary duty of a line is to local passengers.
The object of the railroad is to generate maximum revenue at constant costs, and not to carry the maximum number of people.
These people who you hate so much are fare paying PASSENGERS (none of this customers crap please). Of course fitting more passengers at the same fare onto a train with fixed costs will create more revenue. If someone objects to being on a crowded train they can get off onto the platform and wait for the next one.
Was Margaret Thatcher held accountable for her actions by her constituents?
Yes, she was. Her constituents preferred her to any of the named alternatives, and thus re-elected her. The following Conservative Member for that constituency was rejected by the electorate and so lost his seat. What more do you want - an anarchy box on the ballot paper?
Was Margaret Thatcher held accountable for her actions by her constituents? She may have left office, but is that accountability? Losing office? Had the schemes that she had implemented which had not been considered for the greater good, been reversed?
Her leaving office was not from losing a General Election. It therefore has nothing to do with accountability, other than that the majority of the MPs from the party holding the majority of seats in the House of Commons decided John Major would do a better job. John Major did actually reverse some immensely unpopular (if wholly sensible) taxes introduced by Thatcher and his government was returned in 1992.
Money talks, and will continue to talk.
Fallacious statement.
Don't forget, most of Britain's social policy was written by a bunch of mungoheads studying at the supposedly-prestigious institutions of Oxford and Cambridge.
On that we do agree - current poitical and social policy is shite. Oxford and Cambridge are also no longer even the best universities in the UK (and haven't been for a long time). Their high positions in league tables actually points to flaws in the principles of the TQA and RAE, but this is way off topic for here.
most of them don't know diddly squat.
That is always the problem with academics. Although the best academics are much better than everyone else, there are an awful lot of nutcases.
Just how you can entrust your welfare to these academics (and not $$ in your pocket), is beyond me.
I have a distrust for nutcases as much as you do. I just happen to realise that economics is only a small part of the humanities (yes, humanities, not social sciences - now you know where I stand on the positive/normative debate). A sensible and thorough application across the humanities will lead to a much better picture than a narrow one based wholly in one discipline.
(a graduate of Trinity Hall, Cantab., so I am qualified to speak about my fellow alumnis in this way.)
I'm glad you noticed.
Bovine verbal excrement.
Shouldn't that be rodent? I'm not from Nebraska.
If there aren't people standing, the train's too long.
The UK evidently wishes to choose a third-world standard of living for its citizens. That is why I left. On Indian Railways, your principle there would hold. I do not believe it should hold on British Railways. The fact that you, a rail advocate in the UK, stated that, suggests that BR really is no better than Indian Railways in terms of its intended level of service.
Standing is considered wholly acceptable and a reality on the South Wales Main Line
May be within the jurisdiction of the "sick man of Europe". Over here across the Atlantic, where life is more civilized, to be forced to stand on an intercity train is considered a wholly unacceptable level of service, as are seats that are aeroplane sized like those on GNER. I have said so before, and I will say so again, I like my Amfleet II seats with the 42" seat pitch. Britain has obviously lost much of its insistence on living in a civilized fashion since the Victorian era.
Plus, why would anyone want to use one of those overpriced buffet cars with food that tastes of cardboard and coffee that tastes of nothing, but is served too hot.
Firstly, Debbie (GNER hostess, York depot) would be most upset that you talk about her wonderful service in this manner. I think an apology is in order.
Secondly, may I suggest that you purchase and eat some cafe car fude before you pass a judgment on it?
Thirdly, if the cafe car service really is unsatisfactory, then isn't it the management's responsibility to make it acceptable, instead of simply removing it (by allowing excessive number of commuters to stand?)
You had claimed in an earlier post that you "have some American values". May I suggest you return to your Citizenship 101 class. You ought to be ashamed of what you had just written. It demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what drives the world's greatest superpower -- insistence on uncompromised quality, and a constant desire to improve (instead of accepting that things will never be better).
AEM7
The UK evidently wishes to choose a third-world standard of living for its citizens. That is why I left. On Indian Railways, your principle there would hold. I do not believe it should hold on British Railways. The fact that you, a rail advocate in the UK, stated that, suggests that BR really is no better than Indian Railways in terms of its intended level of service.
I'd say India ran a better railway. And Pakistan. And Nigeria. And Ghana.
May be within the jurisdiction of the "sick man of Europe". Over here across the Atlantic, where life is more civilized, to be forced to stand on an intercity train is considered a wholly unacceptable level of service, as are seats that are aeroplane sized like those on GNER. I have said so before, and I will say so again, I like my Amfleet II seats with the 42" seat pitch. Britain has obviously lost much of its insistence on living in a civilized fashion since the Victorian era.
If you want better, First Class is always there and half-empty.
Secondly, may I suggest that you purchase and eat some cafe car fude before you pass a judgment on it?
I have. The only ones which are at all tolerable are Wales & Borders, ScotRail, and Chiltern, all of which have a trolley not a car.
Thirdly, if the cafe car service really is unsatisfactory, then isn't it the management's responsibility to make it acceptable, instead of simply removing it (by allowing excessive number of commuters to stand?)
It'd still be there. You'd have to give up your seat to use it, but it'd still be there. Commuters are not excessive subhumans, they are paying passengers, just like those occasional long-distancers who insist on travelling at stupid times.
You had claimed in an earlier post that you "have some American values".
Which I do. Taxation with representation (except for customs duties of course), liberty for all innocent people, the equality of all people before the law, AND the stupidly abolished encouragement of immigration (which has arguably helped lead to today's stagnation, corruption and shortage of labour). I may have disagreements with current economic policy, but that does not affect my sharing SOME values.
British James -- I am curious as to whether you have actually been to the USA outside the Northeast.
If you want better, First Class is always there and half-empty.
Back in the day (1998), I did some financial analysis comparing GNER standard class fares with Amtrak coach class fares. On a per mile basis, GNER fares were found to be four times more expensive (prevailing exchange rate at the time was 1.5). On a level-of-service benchmark, perhaps I should have compared GNER first class with Amtrak coach class, in which case GNER fares would be eight times more expensive than Amtrak. Both railroads have their share of problems. Amtrak suffers from extremely slow journey time, whilst GNER suffers from a lack of service (compared to Amtrak) and also from being too expensive.
Zooming out looking at the big picture, I believe the GNER problem is representative of the problems that Europe has in general. Much of the old British Empire pride -- insistence on quality (i.e. building it properly), has been lost in today's cost cutting world. This applies from everything from engineering structures, to interior of train cars, to cafe fude (as you found out). I am willing to bet that if you were able to travel back in time and visit London North Eastern's dining car, the service would not be unlike what was provided on New York Central, Southern, and the Santa Fe.
At the same time, profit margins have creeped up as firms sought to maximize profit. This is partly due to higher labor costs in Europe, and also due to the fact that the white-collar people decided they needed this high standard of living and thus needed to maximize returns on their capital, giving rise to generally high prices.
In America, the business model is drastically different. Here, the returns on investment are generally lower than that in European markets, i.e. there is a longer lead-time for investment payback. The result is that profit margins are generally thinner and higher levels of service costs less. Also, there are economies of scale, etc. contributing to the lower prices here.
The results are actually very interesting. In the U.S., even the working man can afford a first class seat -- because, everyone has a first class seat (by European standards). Of course, the cost base for the businesses are higher, so the profit margins are thinner. However there is less need for the white-collar people to pay ridiculous amount to get a good level of service -- because everyone has it anyway. So that additional small amount of dividend you get each year as a capitalist actually goes a long way towards enhancing your standards of living.
The results leads me to believe that the U.S. business model is better. Labour is efficient, because profit margins are low; standards of living is high, because products have to have quality to be competitive; income gap is lower than in Europe, but a little money goes a long way. People -- whether you are poor or rich, are better off. The poor person can afford what Europeans consider luxury (as evidenced by the GNER first class seats), and the rich person finds most products inexpensive.
Why can the U.S. run on this kind of business model? The reason is basically because the U.S. has a solid foundation of economy: farming, mining, and manufacturing. I am a little concerned that the U.S. is heading in the ruinous direction that Europe has taken over the past 30 years, but, we shall see. I hope the U.S. will pull through.
I think most of your "American values" are what I thought were American values before I came and lived over here. I wouldn't say they are wrong, and they are for the most part correct but I don't believe the implementation is great over here. That having been said, overall I still prefer to live over here compared to the U.K. I don't know if this is because the grass is always greener on the other side, but in general I have found that there are just far fewer life frustrations here than there was in Scotland.
AEM7
On a per mile basis, GNER fares were found to be four times more expensive (prevailing exchange rate at the time was 1.5). On a level-of-service benchmark, perhaps I should have compared GNER first class with Amtrak coach class, in which case GNER fares would be eight times more expensive than Amtrak.
I don't know if a per mile comparison is valid. Distances are much greater in the US. There are more stations and their associated costs per mile than in the UK and Europe.
I don't know if a per mile comparison is valid. Distances are much greater in the US. There are more stations and their associated costs per mile than in the UK and Europe.
Actually, that is besides the point. The point is, I pay less. If the stations are costing GNER money, then eliminate them.
The truth with regards to why GNER costs more is basically because (a) Intercity East Coast spent a lot of money on the infrastructure and therefore have debt burden (b) Amtrak isn't paying much of its bills -- it's only paying incremental costs for track access, and its trainsets came free.
While I believe in true cost accounting, I don't believe that GNER runs a particularly efficient ship with regards to its cost control. If British Rail as a whole were more efficient, the tickets would cost less.
AEM7
I accept that you did some research, AEM7, but I question some of your comments about GNER in Britain.
"A lack of service, compared with Amtrak" ???? Over most of its routes, Amtrak runs one train a day if you are lucky. GNER runs essentially an hourly service London-Edinburgh (400 miles), with an overall speed of close to 100 m.p.h. inclusive of stops. Plus London-Leeds every hour too. Maybe the Amtrak NE corridor is more frequent- but the UK has the parallel West Coast Main Line running London-Scotland too (admittedly slower, since the WCML was electrified and modernised earlier than the ECML and is now in need of further upgrading).
"Comparing GNER standard class fares with Amtrak coach class fares" Probably right -- GNER (and Virgin on the WCML) have very high standard fares. But it is not a fair comparison. The fare system in the UK works on the basis that the standard fare is for the business person travelling on expenses; there are all kinds of cheap deals for other classes of passenger. If you are under 26 or over 60, you can get a railcard for a few pounds that entitles you to a year's discounted fares. If you are travelling at off-peak times (or even at peak times but not towards London), much cheaper fares are available to everybody. My daily (contraflow) commute costs 18 pounds (say $27) for 120 miles of travel in uncrowded main line trains going at over 60 m.p.h. inclusive of several stops; I'd like it to be cheaper, but it isn't too bad. And individual companies offer special deals provided you ride only on their trains; for example, in a couple of weeks' time I'm going (on the much-maligned GNER) from Peterborough to Edinburgh, about 325 miles, for 24 pounds (say $35) on a cheap one-way fare (on a Saturday). For regular daily travellers into London (even if they are "abusing" the main line expresses by commuting on them) season tickets give a lower price per mile than standard tickets. If you were able to work out what the average traveller is paying per mile on a GNER train, it would be a much lower amount than shown by reference to the standard fare tariff. My experience is that trains in the USA do not have such a complex (bewildering!) range of different fares as in the UK, so the published Amtrak coach fare is what most people are actually paying. But nowadays many forms of private enterprise transportation (including airlines and ferry services) try to segment their markets as British railway companies do -- they are advised by economists who research this kind of thing. On the other hand, the low-price airlines in the UK have a different system, based on an algorithm that raises the fare as a particular flight fills up, thus letting the consumer decide whether they would rather (a) make a non-changeable booking a long way ahead, (b) go at a rather inconvenient time to get a cheap fare at short notice, or (c) pay more for a convenient timing. That's o.k. too; different companies have to decide what kind of tariff suits their particular operation, and will succeed in filling up the seats.
For what it is worth, I think that, wherever one stands politically on the nationalisation/privatisation issue as a principle, the *way* BR was privatised was nuts. But you are painting Britain's train services too gloomily, both as regards price and as regards quality of service.
"A lack of service, compared with Amtrak" ????
Over most of its routes, Amtrak runs one train a day if you are lucky.
This is true.
GNER runs essentially an hourly service London-Edinburgh (400 miles)
How does this benefit me, if all I need to do is travel from Edinburgh to London on a given day? Supposing they cut the service back to every two hours, they may be able to have a fancier train car, have a dining car, and still cut my ticket price. The real reason for running hourly service is not to increase the service levels but to compete with the airlines. They should not have to compete with the airlines. I don't like it when competition drives up my ticket price, and makes my service terrible. People talk about the economies of density when you run frequent services. They fail to think about the diseconomies of scale in running 20 sets of dining car crews instead of 10 sets.
with an overall speed of close to 100 m.p.h. inclusive of stops.
Closer to 91mph, but you're pretty close. See my old webpage http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/amt-compare.htm.
But then again, is a 100 m.p.h. average speed really necessary? If you were to drive from Edinburgh to London, the driving time is going to be around 8 to 9 hours assuming that you stay below the speed limit. Rail could be competitive with the car if it offered journey times of less than 6 hours. Cutting it down to 4 hours doesn't really help you compete with the airlines, since the airplane is still quicker at 2.5 hours (including terminal security and access time). Why bother to go fast if you can compete without spending all that capital dollars?
The real reason of course lies with the competitiveness of the Newcastle and Leeds services. That also explains why linespeeds are still so poor between Edinburgh and Newcastle. But in any case, I fail to see why speed alone should be a definition of the service quality. If you would ask me whether I prefer to sit in a GNER train for 4 hours, or sit in an Amfleet II seat for 6 hours and be able to watch a movie while travelling, I'd pick the latter hands down.
Maybe the Amtrak NE corridor is more frequent- but the UK has the parallel West Coast Main Line running London-Scotland too.
No, Amtrak's NEC service except between NYP and PHL, isn't really all that frequent, especially if you intend to either travel on an Acela Express or on a Northeast Direct (so much for segmenting the market). The point I am making here is that frequency of service, and speed (or journey time), is not the sole basis on which a passenger makes her mode choice. GNER would be foolhardy if it believed that speed is all that mattered. For the same reason, the Acela has turned out to be more of a flop than those promoting it expected. They overestimated the value of going fast, which for most rail travellers today, isn't real big. Those people who want to go really fast will choose to fly. Rail travellers look for relaxed work/social environment onboard, not a transit-service that just gets you from A to B.
For the same reason, during rush hour the Park St-Alewife timing on the Boston Red Line is 25 minutes (compared to at least 45 minutes in the private auto). Nonetheless, more than 40% of people choose the private auto despite its slower journey time. It's more comfortable.
AEM7
I'm confused about what you are now arguing -- I thought you were pro-competition and private enterprise! Running trains at high frequency gives consumers a choice of when to travel, as well as the choice of train or plane. What's wrong with trains running a good service to compete with planes? It's a lot better than Amtrak running the Coast Starlight once a day while the airlines run four planes an hour between LAX and SFO!
You were complaining about GNER's high fares but also their "poor service". In what sense is their service poor? It's fast and frequent, and at 5'11" I fit the standard class seats o.k. In a previous post I tried to argue that the differential prices charged were an attempt to make the overall operation profitable by segmenting the market -- at which I think they have been successful. There is no sign of them wanting to give up the franchise, anyway! (Richard Branson would like to get it, so that Virgin could monopolise London-Scotland, but he won't get the chance.) And their trains are well filled despite several airlines, some of them low-cost, operating London-Edinburgh as well. (They get filled too.)
You are right that GNER also does well on London-Newcastle and London-Leeds business -- the distances in those cases are closer to the optimum for success with a fairly fast train service. London-Edinburgh at 400 miles is a little further than the optimum distance. London-Aberdeen is definitely too far (550 miles) -- which is why I always fly on my business trips to Aberdeen.
I'm confused about what you are now arguing -- I thought you were pro-competition and private enterprise!
That is not an uncommon reaction to my ramblings. You're confused because you had tried to pigeonhole me into either someone who is a pro-subsidy and nationalization left-winger, or someone who is a pro-competition and privatization right-winger. I am neither. Now think about what I've said so far:
* People should pay what it costs to provide the service
* That cost should be kept as low as possible
* If the "service" suits my needs, I don't complain
My point is this: privatization and competition are tools with which better services and better cost-effectiveness could be sought. I am arguing that GNER service is poor because they have provided for a level-of-service which is below what I expect. I am arguing that they are providing a service which is too frequent and too fast for anyone but the business traveller; they are providing an on-board service which is too lousy (by U.S. standards) for anyone but the cheapest person. In other words, their business model is, as far as I am concerned, wrong.
There are also issues in the U.S. shuttle markets where similar things are happening on the airlines. For example, out of LGA, there are simply too many flights. So much for frequent service. What people actually want is reliability -- which is compromised by the fact that service is frequent and there isn't enough airside capacity. No one, except the highest business travellers, actually need the 1/2 hourly service provided by Delta and U.S. Air. If the airlines would align themselves with the mass market demand of bi-hourly service with cheaper fares, more people would be more satisified. The business travellers who want the 1/2 hourly service should pay the true costs of 1/2 hourly service. Those who only need bi-hourly service should not have to subsidize those who do.
Customer education is needed here. People usually *plan* their long-distance (>200 mile) trips. People usually know when they want to leave, except the business person who is stuck in a meeting until whenever. If the business person realizes the true cost (in terms of providing rolling stock) of the 1/2-hourly service, she may not be so interested in being stuck in that meeting. Intercity service is not transit. You cannot expect on-demand service over distances of greater than about 200 miles.
It's a lot better than Amtrak running the Coast Starlight once a day while the airlines run four planes an hour between LAX and SFO!
Actually, it's not. If people understood the vehicle costs of providing such a frequent service, and realized that their ticket prices might half if they would plan their trips in advance, then people would do so. There is increasing evidence in the airline industry that high-frequency service doesn't actually pay, because too little high-yield passengers are travelling. The exception to that rule is Southwest, but the reason that their service is popular is more because of their fare structure. If Southwest would exchange their fleet overnight from 737's to 767's and cut all their frequencies in half, in the larger markets they would in fact make more money. The use of 737 as a standard aircraft allows them to offer service to smaller markets.
It's fast and frequent,
You don't get it. Speed and frequency does nothing for me beyond an every two-hourly service on a trip which I plan in advance. It's useless. There is a speed/comfort tradeoff, and I believe GNER went too far in promoting its speed and thus leave their comfort level too low.
differential prices charged were an attempt to make the overall operation profitable by segmenting the market
We can talk about that for days. It's called revenue management. It can be a form of cross-subsidy, also a form of demand management. I am arguing a different point, which is a strategic point about the business model of British intercity operators in general.
There is no sign of them wanting to give up the franchise, anyway!
That does not mean their services are good or appropriate.
AEM7
"In the U.S., even the working man can afford a first class seat -- because, everyone has a first class seat (by European standards)."
Maybe things have changed, but:
- MNRR and LIRR (which I understand are not under discussion here) are 5 seats across.
- Last time I rode Amtrak it was 4 seats across.
- Last time I rode 2nd class in France and Germany it was 4 seats across, while I believe 1st class was 3 across.
- MNRR and LIRR (which I understand are not under discussion here) are 5 seats across.
Correct. These are commuter cars.
- Last time I rode Amtrak it was 4 seats across.
Correct. Did you ever notice/measure the internal dimensions of the Amfleet or Viewliner vehicles? There is a clear 10' across the carriage. On the long-distance Amfleet II, the corridor measures about 1.5' across.
- Last time I rode 2nd class in France and Germany it was 4 seats across,
And did you ever measure the internal dimensions? These are usually 8.5' across. With a corridor measuring 1.25', you work out the seat dimensions and compare that with the seat dimensions on say LIRR with a 2+3 seating arrangement.
Do your own math.
AEM7
The closed station on the ECML was called Corby Glen, because it served the village of Corby Glen. The town of Corby in Northamptonshire is a completely different place.
Local services on the ECML north of Peterborough dissappeared many years before privatisation and certainly aren't about to be restored, renationalisation or no. They carried few passengers and cluttered up a fast main line with slow trains, reducing its capascity. WAGN commuter services finish at Peterborough because it is the more or less natural end of the London commuter zone, about 75 miles out. GNER trains stop at Peterborough (which, contrary to earlier assertions, is also quite an important town in its own right) partly to allow connections so that people from the Northeast of England and Scotland can get to the intermediate stops between Peterborough and London by transferring to WAGN; but more importantly, it is the only connecting point to get to and from the whole of East Anglia from the Northeast and Scotland.
Isn't it one of the strengths of trains (which has been mentioned here in connection with Amtrak, too) that, unlike planes, they can easily make intermediate stops at medium-sized towns? If I want to go from London to Edinburgh, I fly, nonstop; if I want to go from London to Grantham, or Peterborough to York, or Durham to Edinburgh, I go on the train.
The closed station on the ECML was called Corby Glen, because it served the village of Corby Glen. The town of Corby in Northamptonshire is a completely different place.
What I had done was look at a print of a map dating from 1922. At that stage Corby Glen Station was called Corby (Lincs). Of course they hadn't printed (Lincs) on the map page, only the index, so I saw it and immediately typed it - just after posting I noticed that it was the wrong way from Uppingham to be Corby (Northants), so I checked the index and realised I had been conned by a Great Northern naming trick.
Local services on the ECML north of Peterborough dissappeared many years before privatisation and certainly aren't about to be restored, renationalisation or no.
Fair enough - the fact that they can run trains non-stop King's X to York shows how little's there. Compare Birmingham NS - York. If you're unlucky there can be six intermediate stops on an Express!
partly to allow connections so that people from the Northeast of England and Scotland can get to the intermediate stops between Peterborough and London by transferring to WAGN
WAGN as in We Are Going Nowhere?
it is the only connecting point to get to and from the whole of East Anglia from the Northeast and Scotland.
Plus it's a route one occasionally has to use if one misses the last Newcastle - Birmingham train. I've only changed at P'boro once - it was an awful journey: P'boro - Nuneaton TV is SO slow (the scenic route via Melton Mowbray). I somewhat suspect I'd've got to Birmingham quicker via London.
If I want to go from London to Edinburgh, I fly, nonstop
I only fly if I'm going further than I can reasonably get from either Calais or Ostend in a day. I never fly within the UK (partly because no useful internal routes operate from Birmingham International Airport).
I never fly within the UK (partly because no useful internal routes operate from Birmingham International Airport).
Not true. You never fly within the UK because you're a railfan. British Airways operates out of Birmingham international with direct flights to:
Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Southampton, Plymouth, Aberdeen, Inverness, London Heathrow, London Gatwick.
While I would be the first one to agree that Birmingham does not need an airport (what is wrong with Heathrow?), and I also never fly within the UK (because I, too, am a railfan), there are people who choose to use B'ham Airport.
AEM7
I remember the bleeding "tri-Stars" ... no WONDER people take the train even if their chances of survival are questionable. :)
Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Southampton, Plymouth, Aberdeen, Inverness, London Heathrow, London Gatwick.
Notably not Cardiff, Swansea, Dublin, Newcastle... i.e. anywhere I want to go.
You never fly within the UK because you're a railfan. British Airways operates out of Birmingham international
British Airways are a rip-off for anything short-distance. I would fly Birmingham - Newcastle if there were a sensibly priced flight as:
(1) the railway's appalling.
(2) I'm usually trying to get to a place (Ponteland) further out of Newcastle than the Airport.
While I would be the first one to agree that Birmingham does not need an airport
Don't you go taking away my airport! It is necessary because public transport in the South East is pisspoor. The Airports which need to go are:
(1) Stansted (it's a really roundabout ride to get there - Melton Mowbray and March are WAY north of a due east-west line)
(2) Gatwick (If you're that side of London you can go to Southampton instead, which at least has decent rail links from North of the Thames where most of the UK population live)
Rite One is so much easier to contend with. Give the Grace, toss a buck, share the peace and accept Communion. Fix a train and make it go. Life is becoming too complicated. CI Peter
I prefer BCP Evensong - sing the Mag and Nunc, mutter a few things about the Queen and go home.
We ain't got no Queen or King and hate singing hymns but we appear to be upon the same frequency. Chuck the ECUSA BCP of 79...I was taught through the BCP of 28 like Redbird Tech and what works goes. Bishop Spong, Lambeth Conference and the rest of 'hokey poke' is 'grounded shoe beam' (no offense to the poster.) I will refrain from comments based upon the BritCom 'Bless me Father.' I'm too busy MAKING TRAINS GO. The Lord gifted me by getting me out of a miserable job in return for my service as a licensed lectionary/chalice bearer. Nuff said. CI peter
This is wayyy off-topic, but it's nice to see some Anglicans/Episcopalians here. I was raised Presbyterian, but ended up going to Trinity Church (Episcopal) in Boston because all the Presbyterians had apparently been chased out of town by the Puritans at some point. Trinity has a beautiful Rite II Holy Eucharist on Sunday evenings that hooked me on Episcopal liturgy. Must be all that Anglican family ancestry in my blood.
I'm still pretty active with a large Presbyterian church here in Chicago (although our worship is so stiff and formal we could almost be confused for Episcopalians), but I'll probably seek out an active Episcopal parish once I get to Philly. Nothing against the Presbyterian denomination, but for some reason I just feel more at home in the ECUSA these days.
Mind the gap, and God save the queen!
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is wayyy off-topic, but it's nice to see some Anglicans/Episcopalians here...
Funny that. M was just telling me that her local Episopalian church is in trouble because of a sharp decline in membership over the past two years. The congregation is down to about 30 people now, 80% of which are over 65. You want to help out?
AEM7
My current church has about 5000 memebers with a large and active young adult community. I like being in a place where things are happening, and I'm hoping to find a similar church in Philly. Being the only young person in a small, dying congregation isn't really my idea of how to spend a Sunday morning.
Sorry to hear about M's parish... Sounds like the UCC church I grew up in near Cincinnati, and it's a pretty sad thing to see happen. Unfortunately, it's happening in a lot of mainline protestant denominations. People seem to flock to the ultra-fundamentalist mega-McChurches in the suburbs, or they abandon organized religion altogether. Progressive mainline churches, with a few exceptions, haven't done a very good job of letting people know that there is a viable alternative.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My current chuchu has about 5000 memebers with a large and active young adult community. I like being in a place where things are happening,
Doesn't "being at a place things are happen" preclude you from church? Usually, the Saturday all-night parties are a lot more happening than waking up on Sunday before 10.30! *G*
Seriously though, I think that in general the younger generation had been abandoning churches en-masse (myself included), and once you get below a certain critical mass, it is no longer possible to attract new members. It's like subway lines and frequency of service; once the population falls below a certain number, it is no longer possible to justify every-30-mins service, and at below every-30-mins frequency, people then stop using transit altogether...
Unfortunately, it's happening in a lot of mainline protestant denominations.
Why don't those people merge? Like forget the denominational divide and just make a bigger church out of a few smaller ones. Maybe this is Penn-Central in the making, I don't know, but it's better than having the congregation die out.
Progressive mainline churches, with a few exceptions,
What do you mean by progressive mainline church? There's a pretty ghetto Catholic church here in Boston that has done a pretty good job of bringing young and low-income people together, with full turn outs on their 6pm service. I am really amazed by how many young people there are who still believe in going to church. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be happening in other places.
AEM7
I share 'M's problem. We're not so off topic....BCP is Brake Cylinder Pressure in the R142 trainsets. My BCP remains 1928. CI Peter
Since the issue of the London Tube has arisen, here's a question I've been interested in for years. All the original Tube motor cars had a large compartment behind the drivers cab for switching gear. Depending on the design, this compartment seems to have taken up a quarter to a third of the space in the cars that would otherwise be available for seating. This was a feature of Tube car design until (I think) the 1938 stock, and I assume it reflected space constraints in the Tubes that prevented the gear from being installed elsewhere.
So what were the design and/or enginerring advances that enabled the gear to be placed elsewhere - presumably underneath - in the 1938 stock
Thanks in anticipation
Mainly, it was the development of small, relatively low powered traction motors placed throughout the train: A 7 coach 1938 stock train would have 10 motorised axles, as opposed to 6 on pre-1938 stock. The wheels protruded above the chassis (hence the transverse seets were hollow over the wheels) and the floor was ramped up to a greater height.
Smaller but more was the philosophy across the board. The switchgear worked well (PCM) but the compressors never worked reliably.
If you can get hold of "1938 Tube Stock" by Piers Connor (Capital Transport) it is well worth a read. I think it is still in print. In fact, if anyone ever gets the chance to see Piers Connor speak (he does worldwide consultancy now) do it, he is one of the best.
I almost forgot: take a look at:
http://www.showbus.co.uk/efe/1938tube.htm
You can still ride on 1938 tube stock -- on the Isle of Wight! See
http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/iow/
Fytton.
Excellent book! It is available at the LT museum in Covent Garden, if anyone's travelling to London.
Another good book (but it costs 30 pounds) is "Underground Movement", which gives excellent pictorial descriptions of everything (tube and surface) from the 1920 Tube Stock (surface F stock) onward.
wayne
Mr Roberts
Thanks, thats cleared it up well for me. With your indulgence I'll raise on more issue, particularly as the Connor book may not be easy to source here (Canberra, Australia). So far as I know, the original stock on the Waterloo and City, which was introduced around the same time as the other tube stock, managed to keep all the equipment under the cars. On the assumption that the "Drain" had the same dimensions as the other tubes, how did they managed it??
Thanks again
Glad to be of service.
I'm pretty sure that the Waterloo & City Line stock of the same generation as 1938 tube stock had a switch compartment. There is a really good picture at:
http://www.semg.org.uk/gallery/class437.html
which shows this well, just next to the guard. They would never have needed to go much over 30 mph in any case, which is why they never headed for the Isle of Wight.
I did manage to travel on these a few times. Compred with 1938 tube stock, they were quite a basic design, and very primitive.
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
Excellent, thanks!!
I can attest from personal experience when I was a conductor and got the rare train with a PA on it ... I used to have a bit of fun and after making the "official announcements" out of the little book of sayings of the Chairman, I'd improvise every now and then and take delight in the laughter I could hear. Sadly, even then, the wigs had *NO* sense of humor and I'd get me a little lecture for my efforts.
Eventually they realized I sometimes couldn't help myself, so they made sure I'd be on a train WITHOUT a PA system. I can only imagine how seriously management takes itself *THESE* days ... damned shame. The first "captivity" of the public after waking up in the morning is that ride on the train, I always thought it would be real nice to slap a smile on their puss for however long it lasted ...
Sounds like you were a good C/R, Selkirk!
Management didn't think so, but I had some fun. The mindset they taught you though was that in the monkeysuit, you were a sort of shepherd, responsible for the safety and good will of your daily flock. Somehow it was a crime to make them smile though - TOTALLY unprofessional and an offence to the uniform. Ho-kay ... :)
Well I have one word to describe your managers:
Pillocks!!!
Care to oblige us with the best of SelkirkTMO announcements?
Thanks!! I needed a good laugh.
You hear some good announcement on NYC Subway trains but not as good as that.
The downside of government agencies is a lack of a sense of humor and a uniform code of desire to provide any humanity to the ride. And you wonder why I didn't last? :)
But yeah, figured the TWU folks would get a kick out of it, I sure know *I* did.
This is what can happen with OPTO -- this is the T/O talking, and there is no other staff member on the train to snitch on her/him to the management! And it all shows that the Underground has a human face. Incidentally, I heard an announcement on the Tube the other day in what sounded like a Canadian accent. This made me wonder whether there are any ex-NYCT T/Os working on the tube?
Fytton.
Ya never know ... only the local council knows for sure. I heard Maggie Thatcher was moonlighting on the Bakerloo ... something about the pension not being up to snuff. Of course, it could be a false nose. :)
Of course, it could be a false nose. :)
Or a false head...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2091000/2091660.stm
Wow ... even though I didn't think much of her politics, there's no excuse for vandalism. A more proper protest would have been to place a blue curtain in front of her. :)
Heh. The funny thing is that on the day, one TV news reporter said in a very serious voice "The motive was unknown".
To be fair to Thatcher, quite a bit of what she did needed doing, but she is definitely a bit off the map as far as my views on politics go.
Well, "off with their head" is a typically British ... ummm ... idiom, sir. Even if it was the French who actually practiced it. But vandalism is vandalism even if one objects to the pendulum of politics whacking either wall on a recurring basis. I'd wave my finger about Maggie, but being an American, it's a bit difficult at the moment. :)
I'm not into defacing art, but you really had to smile at that one!
I'm never quite sure whether I'm left or right wing - I have prominent elements of both in my politics. I'm DEFINITELY no Thatcherite tho.
Feel free to wag a finger at her - and listen to Sousa's Hands Across the Sea March to make you feel better ;-)
"Please allow the doors to close. Try not to confuse this with 'Please
hold the doors open'. The two are distinct and separate instructions."
Can't've been a Bakerloo Line train - quite often you have to give the doors a shove to shut them!
You missed out my favourite anouncement (it's actually a tube station announcement, but I guess it counts):
"Will someone please apprehend the gentleman running down the escalator? He has failed to buy a ticket."
He runs a bit faster...
"It's no use running: you're on camera."
He leaps over onto the up-escalator and starts running back to the ticket office.
"Next time, buy a ticket, you tosser!"
Another hilarious annoucement was heard on the Hammersmith and City Line:
"This is a Barking Train... woof, woof!"
A puzzling one given that Edgware Road has six through platforms is:
"I apologise for the delay leaving the station ladies and gentlemen, this is due to a passenger masturbating on the train at Edgware Road. Someone has activated the alarm and he is being removed from the train."
I suppose it could've been on the Bakerloo Line. (Actually not - I've found the identical one on www.going-underground.net and it says it was on the District Line.)
And one for the horror movie fans:
"I am sorry about the delay, apparently some nutter has just wandered into the tunnel at Euston. We don't know when we'll be moving again, but these people tend to come out pretty quickly...usually in bits."
A few more:
"Ladies & Gentleman, upon departing the train may I remind you to take your rubbish with you. Despite the fact that you are in something that is metal, fairly round, filthy and smells, this is a tube train for public transport and not a bin on wheels"
"Hello this is xxx speaking, I am the captain of your train, and we will be departing shortly, we will be cruising at an altitude of approximately zero feet, and our scheduled arrival time in Morden is 3:15pm. The temperature in Morden is approximately 15 degrees celsius, and Morden is in the same time zone as Mill Hill east, so there's no need to adjust your watches."
'Well good morning everyone and welcome to your Waterloo and City Line service on this lovely, yummy, lemon-scummy day. This is your Waterloo....' then realising that he had already said Waterloo and City Line service, 'train...service...thingy'. Then as we approached Bank,'Well ladies and gentlemen. I can see a light in front of me which I think is probably Bank station, so that's good isn't it? But I personally was hoping for Calais. Perhaps next time, eh?"
'welcome to this lovely train - taking the scenic route to Richmond'.
"Ladies and gentlemen this train has 22 doors on each side, please feel free to use all of them, not just the two in the middle".
From the Piccadilly Line:
"This is Knightsbridge Station... All change here for Mr Fayed's little corner shop.."
And to sum it all up:
"This is the Line Control Room at Baker Street. The Bakerloo Line is running normally today, so you may expect delays to all destinations."
For more such hilarity see www.going-underground.net
"This is Knightsbridge Station... All change here for Mr Fayed's little corner shop.."
Most Americans wouldn't get this, it's too subtle and a bit rude! Anyway most of them think that Mr Fayed's little corner shop is "really neat". Don't forget, Mr Fayed also has branches at Heathrow, Terminal Four.
I haven't heard that many funnies on the Tube, I guess I just don't ride it enough.
Most Americans wouldn't get this, it's too subtle and a bit rude!
I know, but it was a great one, so I just HAD to include it!
Perhaps those who don't understand it can look at:
www.knightsbridge.net/shop.html
In the final clause of the paragraph beneath the photo, for "not" read "now".
We don't have to go so far for the hilariaty. This is my home, this is my city and this is the work that love. You'all in England have yet to engage 'English Comprehension and Understanding' in the tubes...or do you??? Thank God we have Todd Glickman....'forneys' at the car desk would get us 'flattened and squished' if we were deaf and blind. 'Pleese watch the closing of the opening doors...next stops are New Delhi and Ho Chi Minh City.' The only deli I know is in Food Emporium. CI Peter
Absolutely PRICELESS! Thanks for tossing a few more in there. Yes, I don't quite know what this obsession with dustbins on wheels has been lately, so I'll toss this in as well (and I have no idea of WHY I'm throwing this in) ...
A dustbin man is going along a street picking up the wheelie bins and
emptying them into his dustcart lorry. He gets to one house where the
bin hasn't been left out so he has a quick look for it, goes round the back but still can't see it so he knocks on the door.
There's no answer so he knocks again.
Eventually a Japanese bloke answers... "Harro", says the jappy chappy.
"Alright mate, where's your bin?" asks the dustman.
"I bin on toilet" replies the Japanese bloke, looking perplexed.
Realising the Japanese fellow has misunderstood, the binman smiles and
says, "No mate, where's ya dust bin?"
"I dust bin on toilet I told you" says the Japanese man
"Mate" says the dustman... "you're misunderstanding me...
Where's your Wheelie Bin?"
"OK" "ok" , says the Jap, "I wheelie bin having wank."
"Hello this is xxx speaking, I am the captain of your train, and we will be departing shortly, we will be cruising at an altitude of approximately zero feet, and our scheduled arrival time in Morden is 3:15pm. The temperature in Morden is approximately 15 degrees celsius, and Morden is in the same time zone as Mill Hill east, so there's no need to adjust your watches."
HA! When I was doing my turn on the GO trains in Toronto in the mid-90s, I got to do PA duties. Since I have a very good PA and radio voice--which kinda sounds like an airline capitan when I want it to, I took to the task like a duck to water. And yes, I did a similar announcement tailored to the Milton Line. It actually got a laugh from the pax and fortunately no comments from the other conductor and brakeman.
I followed it up the following evening with an announcement as if done by a southern RR station PA announcer: "GO Train 155...now leaving on track number 13 for Kip ling, Dix ie, Cooks ville, Erin Dale, Streets ville, Meadow Vale, Mil ton and Kook-a-monga!"
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
Yo Selkirk TMO...you think this goes unoticed by me...then my printer jams for two copies? So I get R142 Carbody today and these messages should be availabe on TOD (translated into English.) CI Peter
Well, if anybody can make sure the propers are in there, it'd be you. Lemme see ... what's "High tech" these days in trains? 74LS189's in 16 pin dip? A couple of bit shifters and there we are. :)
What is the AMTRAK freight service.what cars do they use .what are the materials.
boxcars
intermodal trailers
baggage cars
commodoties are:
mail
magazines
perishables
contract intermodal (these could contain anything)
Some of us was talking about the GM-10 Locomotive in some of the past threads, I was not able to read them all, so I may have missed some important facts, I need to know why was the GM-10 taken out of service?? That Locomotive is a powerful motherf***er, It had 10,000 hp!
Market condition changed.
Amtrak forced ConRail to move its freight off the NEC, thus EMD lost its only existing customer for any electric freight locomotive.
GF6C
What year did BC Rail picked up their GF6C?
I just answered my own question.
GM6C was a C motored demo and it was completed in 1975.
GF6C was for BC Rail and the first one was rolled out on Nov 84.
BTW, BC Rail just had a bid (closed 3 Jul 2002) on ALL the GF6C parts they had in supply.
For those that did not know, the export market dried up and BC Rail shut down their overhead.
Amtrak didn't kick them off insomuch as raise trackage rates. They kicked them off of daylight operations after the Chase MD collission. The funny thing Re: the NEC is that it was built with freight and long distance passenger service in mind, not commuter and hi-speed service. Back in PRR days the middle tracks were for freight and the outside tracks were for passenger. Look how all the flying jct's were arranged. Today we need all 4 tracks for passenger service, w/ the middle tracks for hi-speed service. The NEC became too sucessful as a passenger route to keep its place as a first class freight main line.
Amtrak didn't kick them off in so much as raise trackage rates.
Incorrect. They raised trackage rates, to the point of 89 cents per car-ton-mile (where the industry typical practice is around 30 cents per car-ton-mile). However that statistic is misleading as freight running on the NEC tended to be short trains and the NEC is charged on a per-train-mile basis (which makes sense from a signalling capacity standpoint) rather than the usual per car-mile basis which assumes excess capacity and the only costs were incremental track maintenance which *is* in fact axle related.
The NEC became too sucessful as a passenger route to keep its place as a first class freight main line.
The NEC did not become a successful passenger route. It was made into a passenger route. Whether this was a wise decision is open to debate. However, what is done is now done, and there still is a problem shifting freight around in the Northeast. Freight passenger may not mesh very well when you have AEM-7's running around, but I am all in favour of kicking the commuter operators out for some freight capacity; it's a much better use of a scarce resource. Railfreight to highly urbanized areas actually generate money, especially with long-haul intermodals, unlike commuter rail.
AEM7
Well there is a paralell Freight Line to the NEC in the CSX Philly and Trenton subvidisions. The problem is that both lines are mostly single track w/ passing sidings.
That line needs an upgrade. I didn't know it was single track etc. But the NEC goes through so much more industrial blight. In the Northeast, they have done with the Europeans did, sacrificed railfreight in favour of passenger service. What is needed is a combined freight and passenger railroad. If Amtrak were serious not just about intermodals but conventional freight on the NEC (no, not the coals, but the merchandizers), and have good load/unload facilities at industrial sites across the Northeast (such as distribution centers in Winsoocket, RI), then I-95 probably wouldn't be as congested as it is today, and some money might even be made in the process.
AEM7
The GM6C (#1975)and GM10B (#1976) were built as demonstrators. They only came about at the time because the fears of rising fuel prices had some of the class I's considering electrification of their main lines, but once fuel prices came back down as well as the discovery that electification would be hella expensive, that was it for them and they ended up going back to EMD.
Does anyone know the top speed of an NYC subway? Or a subway going from Times Square to Penn Station? Any idea where I can look this up?
Thanks
Each Subway Car has their own max speed, like the R-142, according to Bombardier, it has Max speed of 66 mph. But If you are talking about the Max authorized speed in system, every line has a different max speed, I've been on the A/C Lines between Brooklyn & Manhattan, and topped out a max of about 45-50 mph.
it always looked like about 55 top not quite 60 ...even on video !!
the ""liar"" LIRR was a joy to ride on MAN! -DEY' "R" FAST !!!
Fron Times Sq to Penn Station? In subway terms the stations are close to each other.
I don't think they have enough time to get above 20 mph before having to come to a station stop.
All that for just (42-33=9) 9 blocks.
I'd say about 28mph between Times Sq and Penn Station
East NY to Myrtle on the J. At 53 MPH the car started to shake violently so I went to coast. I think 55+ is a possiblilty BUT there are timers near the end of that stretch anyway.
best i ever saw was 65 on a R32 N before the W came out. it was 3862 in the 60th street tube.
This was relatively flat. Roosevlet-QP with a fast E and the flats near Broad Channel oare the other fast flat spots.
In the tube someone who is a speed freak claims to have topped 70 with a kick ass train. In school car he was doing 60+ in the tube.
Ive seen 68 MPH with a set of R40's in the 60 St tube.
Those who talk about the high speeds in the 60th Street Tunnel fail to take into account two conditions:
1. The timers are set for a much-higher-than-normal speed for a NYCT river tube; and
2. These speeds are reached at the bottom of the tube, after the train has had a chance to build up a good head of steam because of the aforementioned higher-than-normal speed limit and gravity. The removal of field shunting several years ago means that a train that flies downhill will be huffing and puffing by the time it reaches Lexington Avenue or 11th Street Cut.
On straight, level track, with all motors and propulsion systems functioning properly, "legacy" equipment should be able to reach a balancing speed in the area of 45 MPH (down from 50-55 MPH before field shunting was removed. The new stuff should be able to do about the same, but should be able to reach its top speed in less time (and yes, I know what it says on Bombardier's website).
David
You speak the truth. BTW, my DC Metro train hit a max speed of 54mph during the 5 minutes that I was looking at the speedo. That system is like night and day compared to ours. No need to debate this. I'm just mentioning it...
I don't know if this track is level, but I was on a 5 train (yes, a 5 train, of R-33's) two or three months ago on the SB West Side express that reached 50 at 50th, according to the speedometer in the T/O's cab. More common speeds around there are 45-47.
That's right. The R40's are the fastest little buggers in the system. Slants rule! I'll challenge anyone to a drag race: me operating a 10-car train of R40 slants and you operating any current revenue set of cars other than R40 slants or R40M's. We'll race on the Brighton Express tracks from Church Ave to Sheepheads Bay. I know I'll win.
You're not going to do that with New Tech unless freewheeling on a downslide. No more catching up on trainsets ahead...RTO runs schedule. Clocking 35 MPH on an aluminum folding scooter down Lexington Avenue was a real rush saving a token...now what is for free...well, I drive to my yard saving one hour and ten minutes. What transit does do is provide safe and reliable transport on schedule...just slowly. Paraphrasing from a poster, 'What do you want for thirty five cents...to live forever?' The scooter remains in the trunk of my car anticipating another blackout. CI Peter
I hope that scooter was electric. I bike ride in midtown a lot. Its annoying to hear one of those annoying gas motors on those scooters. I just like to catch up to them and pass them just for the fun of it. Im VERY good at drafting, but thats a different story.
I hope that scooter was electric. I bike ride in midtown a lot. Its annoying to hear one of those annoying gas motors on those scooters. I just like to catch up to them and pass them just for the fun of it. Im VERY good at drafting, but thats a different story.
OOPS. It got posted twice.........Stupid AOL LOL
It's foot powered...those little wheels at 35 MPH could turn you into a vegetable. CI peter
Sure that was the TRAIN shaking and not the structure? :)
They used to say the old "Q" cars on the Myrtle could do 35, downhill, with a good tail wind!
...woah man !! ....i actually spoke to the woman at the museum bout
this !! i cant believe i will be riding this august 25 th !!!!
oh man !!! i have to get control of myself BIG TIME !!!!
...............lol..............lol...........!!
Gee whiz, why don't you be more enthusiastic?
[I suppose we shouldn't tell him that the RFW on those cars was painted over - JUST KIDDING].
Painted over? Nah. They installed a transverse cab!
on a D triplex !!..............lol !!
Play Friendly.
Alot of fellow SubTalkers tend to ride
(and appear on) that train.
Well, I didn't plan to be on that trip, and I guess it's a good thing, now, too :)
But have fun! ...And keep the tripod at home - it's not allowed on the train.
--Mark
""And keep the tripod at home - it's not allowed on the train.""
because you sez so ????..............!
@ they did not stop me before on lirr or the nyc subway !!
where did you get that............
""And keep the tripod at home - it's not allowed on the train.""
did mr mike hanna say that or mark w ??
there is an ol' sayin' its not waht you do it is how U do it !!!
...........lol !!
You'll get the same letter with your ticket that we all did ... and it will plainly tell you that photography and video is allowed but no tripods.
--Mark
nobody stopped me before
They WILL now.
Peace.
ANDEE
BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO BE THERE WITH A AK 47 TO ENFORCE THIS ??
....................lol......................
............lol...!!!
never heard so much shit in my life !
Only Commies and Middle Eastern terrorists have AK-47s. Such firearms are forbidden under NYC 'assault weapon laws.' Nothing like a NYC cop who knows how to swing and bounce a Night Stick to clear out a subway platform of tourists with tripods. Of course, Monseuir Garands creations remain available only to the qualified. Check out the August 2002 issue of NRA 'American Rifleman' in the library for more details...half the magazine was devoted to HIS designs. CI Peter
i dont own a gun of any kind whatsoever ....i did use a cheap bb type
2 run off the stray dogs / cats who raid our trashcans and spill em'
over !! .......i got a rap cd tune on a ak 47 .......
but since that poster ahead of me insisted i just wanted to put a Q&A
as to how far he would go to block my shooting a video on the D
triplex train trip this august ( maybe he owns an uzzie ) !!!!!!
lol !!!
anyway i just want to show up early shoot thru the front window if i
can without blocking anybodys else' view if possible so others can
enjoy themselves on the museum train trip this august !!!
& i am riding the greyhound cross cou8ntry so i can do this as well!
.................lol !!
i dont own a gun of any kind whatsoever ....i did use a cheap bb type
2 run off the stray dogs / cats who raid our trashcans and spill em'
over !! .......i got a rap cd tune on a ak 47 .......
but since that poster ahead of me insisted i just wanted to put a Q&A
as to how far he would go to block my shooting a video on the D
triplex train trip this august ( maybe he owns an uzzie ) !!!!!!
lol !!!
anyway i just want to show up early shoot thru the front window if i
can without blocking anybodys else' view if possible so others can
enjoy themselves on the museum train trip this august !!!
& i am riding the greyhound cross country so i can do this as well!
.................lol !!
Travelling by bus cross country is probably the best way to experience 'real America.' Just keep your opinions to yourself...I had a big laugh one day travelling America in rural North Carolina...chubby Rednecks looked at my BIG motorhome and pronounced, "Guoing, Gouing, Gouing (the Redneck neck verbalisation,) look at that big box house on wheels.' Television reception was a recentently introduced access to 'first world' civilisastion. Scanned Ockracokes beaches late at night with a helium/neon laser and 'hit' a Redneck with the red dot. Sucker thought he just met 'StarTrek' and had to apolgise for the 'contact.' NYC/LA life is on a higher plain...learn 'Klingon' to communicate with lower life forms. CI Peter
i did it driving from southern california once ...
hell let the dog do it this time !!
amtrak was not as good the winter trip was without any heat at all !!
almost froze 2 death ...............no..>>>.lol......!!
i will bet you my best video ...
i get to use my tripod on the museum train like i do on the #7 etc...
....&...if i win this bet do i get your best video ??
i was supposed to win a video anyway i won #1 best nightshot
photographer in da' photo contest !!.......lol!!
just a friendly bet provided you do not contact them first and later
i find this out you told them to stop me !!
..example... like the ak 47 subwaysurf .......lol ......!!
..how bout' da' bet here ...??..............!!
You want proof? OK - here:
NYCRR Chapter XXI - Metropolitan Transportation Authority
Subchapter C - Conduct and Safety of the Public
Section 1050.9 Restricted area and activities
(c) Photography, filiming and video recording in any facility is permitted EXCEPT that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used.
(Note: I put the word except in all caps for emphasis. It is in lower case in the actual wording of the rule)
I was thinking of something else that could happen as a worst case due to certain circumstances that surround us these days and was going to comment on it but it is just to far fetched so I will end that thought.
Allan ... that's not proof ... that's PROFF :) :) :)
--Mark
the word is pooooofff!! .........i know i spelled proof wrong lol!
And guess who worked for so many years with nothing in return that will be off for TEN DAYS at the end of August? I did the 'Last Redbird Excursion' and maybe I can do a 'Museum Train' in a semi-official capacity. CI Peter
yep !!...plan 2 do both for sure ...............lol !!
Article in today's Trib:
Metra's Electric seen as model
The Electric has always been my favorite Metra line, for many of the same reasons mentioned in the article. Glad I'm not the only one. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
However, South Shore fans might quibble over the Trib's description of Metra Electric as Chicago's /only/ electric commuter service.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Here's a link to how San Francisco Muni is seen as a model:
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/models/htm/gk05.htm
...and to how CTA is seen as a model:
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/models/htm/as05.htm
...and even to how the CA&E is seen as a model:
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/models/htm/sl03.htm
I'm sorry. I saw the subject line and couldn't resist. :-)
Frank Hicks
Oh, hush. :-)
Anyway, I still prefer the 1:1 scale model railroad out at IRM. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
YUP still the best. when I commuted on the IC from Bryn Mawr to Van Buren for work in the loop I was late maybe twice in a year and a half. And that was after a major blizzard.
Can anyone confirm this.
Some of it was. Most of the action sequences were computer generated, the inside of the subway car was a set, but that was Will Smith standing on the platform telling people about the new, more energy efficient subway cars.
Yesterday, another movie was being filmed at that station. If you see a future movie with an R68 signed as an F train, that's what I saw.
I saw that in the morning at church with W's, and then in the afternoon at 18th Av. with F's (but the north destination was still Astoria). It was an R-68A. If I remember correctly, 5046 was one of the cars
Would anyone happen to know whether the train carried passengers (as an F) at any time during the day? A friend of mine claimed to have seen it in service.
David
My guess is that he saw it full of "extras".
YEAH....and how about JEFF'S feeling... his Space was invaded.he did,however get a tasty treat..a train buffet....
Anybody know roughly how many people die every year from nyc subway accidents? I often hear of such incidences, but have never seen an overall figure.
I don't have figures for any other years but it would be interesting to see if anyone canguess how many there have been this year.
Does that include CIs trying to make popcorn or 'pissing on the third rail?' The public just does not know how dangerous 'off platform' can be. MTA made efforts years ago to inform the public but just sometimes someone thinks 'I can do this without being hurt...it is so easy.' My training at Coney Island wasn't much...hopping tracks...learned more on my own at 239th Yard. Nothing like a 'spectacular demonstration' of third rail power and trainset wheels upon the tracks. Several weeks ago, a stubborn classmate smacked carbody with the Big Bug at Pelham. Armageddon in an instant...we are still trying to find out how 'Gilliganovich' made out. Not much better for kids trying to cross LIRR with bicycles...the hazard remains the same. TA work is excellent work...and it is dangerous...inspection IS NOT walking about the trainset with a clipboard. When you do your final walkabout checks...and you find something wrong from another inspector...you do that work to make the trainset safe and ready...and you let your supervisor know that you picked up this work that was missed in the event that there was another undisclosed problem or you didn't do anothers work at the last minute properly. CI Peter
My training at Coney Island wasn't much...hopping tracks...learned more on my own at 239th Yard.
BN gave a day long traing course to EMS providers. Among other things, they said If you cannot step over the running rail, then walk around it!
Slipery even if not wet, and the opposite rail is placed where it is so that you head will hit it if you slip.
Elias
It was just ten months ago...I remember like yesterday...and one day...in my last job...in this career...I hope to teach others. "Oh well you should avoid switch points so as not to get trapped and walk around multiple third rail sites." Yeah, right. So a grounded lightpost stands in the midst of two third rails in the 239th yard. Do you really want to depend upon your 'safety shoes' or are you a proponent of Orville Redenbakker? Every day we at 180th have a safety meeting. A supervisor looks at me today and says, 'Murricane, this is directed at you. DO NOT work upon subway cars above platform level without approved safety equipment or support.' The day before I was given the assignment to replace a end car destination glass and was looking for a ladder...the very same supervisor told me to look for a ladder and to report to him if I could not find one by 14:50 hours....the end of the day. The humor was 'tongue in cheek' but the matter was serious...no matter how badly you want to do the work, an injury causes loss to TA of your skills and a lot of paperwork to your supervisors. Leave popcorn to the microwave. CI Peter
Heh. It's amusing how many "civilians" think you're SUPPOSED to step on the steel. Rude awakening for many it is, it is ... :)
Heh. It's amusing how many "civilians" think you're SUPPOSED to step on the steel. Rude awakening for many it is, it is ... :)
When I first started brakeman training on CP Rail back in 1994, everyone in our class of 16 was fined $5 by the instructor each time they were caught stepping on a railhead. Me and one other were the only ones who never did it. One bloke must have paid a couple of hundred by the time he got it through his head. Scary, actually...and we didn't have any third rail to worry about either!
I was actually surprised when I took my Amtrak rules this spring that there wasn't more focus paid to electric safety (just a one-day course). In fact, one thing we were warned NEVER to do on the CP--ever--was regularly done by my instructor and other class members here: walking between the guage!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
CP rules down here near Selkirk (CP-VO on the map) the rules are the same as they are elsewhere. And of course, don't forget to provide that extra width away from the outside of the heads to prevent getting smacked in the head by step plates ... yeah, it's amusing how few people know how truly bad an idea either practice is. And heaven help you if you don't crane your head thrice before crossing over as quickly as you can scoot. But I *do* like that $5.00 story. Once that chap caught on, that'll be a bit LESS "grease" on the rail. :)
Selkirk, what is the reason for not stepping on the rail?
The smoothness of the steel (on shiny ones) makes them VERY slippery, especially in civilian shoes. Check the width, you can see how easy it is to slip, fall and split your skull open. With third rail about, multiple dangerous. Railroads also teach you that you have no business ever being between them either since you never know when a train's coming, and to be at least three feet (or more) away from the rail on the outside. A lot of dumbasses will walk on tracks, just clear of the ties and wonder why they got hit by an overhang. But there ya be's.
Was taking some cars out of 239 barn one night and was in the middle of my walk around inspection. Walking down the side with the bugs and luckily I saw it. A bug was put back on the hook still exposed without the covering. Jeez. Move the bugs sometimes from side to side to get down the aisle.
I don't have any numbers myself. But based on what I've heard on my scanner, on Shadow Traffic and what I've read in here, at LEAST once a month. Probably more.
(Anybody know roughly how many people die every year from nyc subway accidents? I often hear of such incidences, but have never seen an overall figure.)
According to a memo I saw, the average seems to be about 40, not including those who jump, are pushed, or are employees. I was surprised it was that high. Then again, about 200 pedestrians and cyclists are killed per year by motor vehicles on the street.
Don't walk between cars, stay far away from the platform edge, and don't even smile, let alone run or engage in horseplay, while on the platform. That's what I tell my kids. I do fear having them goof off, run, trip, fall, and get hit.
But I fear having them cross the street more.
(According to a memo I saw, the average seems to be about 40, not including those who jump, are pushed, or are employees.)
Check that. After reviewing the memo, it's about 40 per year including customers killed accidently and those who commit suicides -- but not employees and those pushed in front of trains. It's about 20 per year by accident, not including suicdes, and 20 suicides.
Today on the L
Homeless using Transit electricity to watch TV.(police were called to remove them.)
Disorderly customer riding a scooter on the train! (I told conductor.)
Did they have cable, too? ;) Even the subway probably gets the YES network.
LOL!!! (as a Yankee fan and a Cablevision subscriber I had to laugh at that). I hope there wasn't too much power from that third rail, otherwise it may have blown out the tv, just like if lightining hit the house. -nick
Last time I had to call Customer Service at Cablevision and they fixed my problem they went into ye olde customer service speach "We strive to be the best in service (yadah yadah yadah)... Is there anything else I can do for you??"
I had to say it, "GIVE ME BACK MY DAMM YANKEES!!"
"Umm err ahh, Sorry Sir...umm ahhh, you can call 1800....." They now have a special 800 number that after you listen to THEIR SIDE of the story you can complain.
Meanwhile I'm getting $0.55 a month refund for not haveing Yankees on Cablevision.
I'll take the 55 cents, anyday!
NYM
55 cents for NYY??? Too damn generous.
Damn Yankees... Damn Yankees... oh yeah, they're the guys that were shooting at my countrymen back during the Late Unpleasantness...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I didn't know one could pick up TV in the subway.
What was the TV plugged into? I never noticed any 120V plugs in the subways.
During station renovation work, they seem to be changing the older round-pin receptacles for conventional NEMA 5-20's. They're still in boxes with screw-on round covers with keeper chains, though. Often you'll find them coming off the new-style lighting conduits.
1. Is the fare set yet?
2. Will you be able to go all the way through once it's done? i.e. Get on at Howard Beach, ride through the airport, and get off at Jamaica?
3. Will they take Metrocards?
4. Will the TA bus be eliminated?
Thanks in advance.
1 - Fare will be $5
2 - Don't know exactly what you mean...
3 - Yes, they'll take MetroCard
4 - Yes, the PA's shuttle bus will be eliminated (the bus is not run by the MTA)
I would doubt #2 would be very desirable. If the PA is planning on charging $5 at the transfer stops and free for inter-terminal traffic, they'll probably have entry/exit swipers at Jamaica and Howard Beach only. Which means, it will cost $10 to go from one to the other. It also means it will cost $10 to do a round trip.
the $5 fare would quickly run a $15 Metrocard. Wonder how they would charge a single fare: Token(S)? Ticket(S)? Cash at Jamaica or Howard Beach Turnstiles?
Five dollars to ride some automated shitbox light rail/people mover choo-choo electric toy trainset? Please, I'd rather have the buses than that BUM-bardier Airtrain shit...Just once I will ride it and enjoy it at that time...no more riding that shit...Five dollars...PUH-LEASE!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Airtrain is Rip-off"
No, no - say thank-you to the Government of Ontario for that one. They're the ones who cooked up the whole thing back in the very late 1970s, early 1980s. Bombardier picked up ICTS when they picked up UTDC since it was one of their 'products' and they continue to sell it. Why, and why people buy it is quite perplexing especially when you take the history of the Scarborough RT into account.
We have a little ICTS line tacked on the east end of the Bloor-Danforth subway, essentially meaning that the real subway won't be pushed further east unless the SRT is abandoned wich isn't going to happen any time soon. That little line has been just about nothing but trouble from day one for a variety of reasons. At least it only costs a regular TTC fare to ride instead of $5 US.
-Robert King
As a veteran of the JFK Subway bus it is witout doubt the worst ride possible, even if is free. A horse and cart would be better. A five dollar alterantive is CHEAP !
Simon
Swindon UK
What I mean is, if I want to take the Airtrain from Howard Beach to Jamaica without getting off in JFK, can I?
Also, on a half fare card, would the Airtrain be 2.50?
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/projectframe.htm
from what I see, would take the Howard beach 2 stops to Federal Circle, then transfer to the Jamaica Extension
hope the link helps
1. Is the fare set yet?
$5.00
2. Will you be able to go all the way through once it's done? I.e. Get on at Howard Beach, ride through the airport, and get off at Jamaica?
I honestly doubt that you can do that
3. Will they take Metrocards?
I presume yes.
4. Will the TA bus be eliminated?
Again, I presume yes.
They should make it AirCard for the AirTrains, LOL.
The Port Authority seems to want to charge all airport visitors some pricey fee because airports are expensive to run. I object to the loss of #109 service between Newark Airport and 41st Street. The bus runs, but it handles only EWR-Irvington people, not those trying to save money to/from NY. (There is a loading restriction.) At Newark, once can still catch the infrequent #92 to Perth Amboy via EWR. At JFK, I presume the Q10 will remain at standard fare. Note that the $5 Airtrain fare to Jamaica gets you on a vehicle with only 22 seats! The somewhat similar cars in Vancouver have more seats, and the seats are comfortable, with a railfan seat up at the front window.
Channel 7 news reported a power failure at the Jay Street/Borough Hall station, screwing up everyone's commute.
Here are the service changes as of now, according to the MTA's Travel Information Hotline:
A and C trains suspended in both directions, Chambers Street to Broadway/East New York.
F trains running via the G in both directions, Queens Plaza to Bergen Street.
The power failure was at around 5 PM.
Con Ed sucks! Last month I went 8 hours without power, and the folks at Fire Island were screwed up for days! The subway system should never have sold its power plant. We need some competitors to break the Con Ed monopoly.
Then again, if you compare it to the West Coast, Con Ed does not look THAT bad.
Fire Island is on LI and powered by LIPA. That outage was caused by a substation fire at Brightwaters.
What does Con Ed have to do with Fire Island?
The subway system should never have sold its power plant. We need some competitors to break the Con Ed monopoly.
The IND has used ConEd power for the beginning
The power plant once belonged to the IRT.
The IRT's power came from the IRT's power plant (W. 59th Street and the Hudson River in Manhattan). The BMT's power came from the BMT's power plant (Kent Avenue and the East River in Brooklyn). Both of those plants were sold by the city to Consolidated Edison in 1959.
The IND's power, from the very beginning in 1932, was purchased from Consolidated Edison.
David
Now let's get the facts correct. The power used by the MTA, is
purchased from the New York Power Authority and feed into the system
by Con Edison. Even though NYPA has sold it nuclear reactors to
Entergy, there are contracts in place for blocks of power for the
MTA.
There are also blocks of power generated by NYPA's hydro plants and
purchases from Hydro~Quebec. All goverment entities in New York
City & Westchester purchase NYPA power, that is transmitted to
location by Con Edison.
;-) Sparky
Correct, as it refers to current operations. I was talking about 1932, when Con Ed both produced the power and transmitted it.
David
That's right! John's job at NYPA was, in fact, painting the
little NYPA logo on the electrons so they could be sorted out
once they entered the Con Ed distribution grid.
And for those unhappy with the Con Edison electrons, there's always Enron, Williams or Keyspan, or Duke Power Park electrons. They spin in the opposite direction. :)
Do any companies spin both ways?
That would be Harken Energy and Halliburton, but both are prohibited thoughts. :)
I was going to suggest hacking apart a phone jack and stealing power from WorldCom...
-Robert King
Yeah, a 20 milliamp loop should at least be able to get you into series mode. :)
Oooyyveyyy!! Glad I didn't go 2 the Rockaways today!
About the same time, there was no service in/out of the Rockaways. The South Channel Bridge was stuck in the open position. That lasted for at least 1 hour.
And I take it Keanu Reeves wasn't on hand to try to jump the train across the gap?
Don't you mean Sandra Bullock? :)
I'd ride her bus anyday. What do you do? What DO you do? :)
Got nailed. Stood on the platform for half an hour, before they finally made an announcement and sent a G to Coney Island.
Could not have picked a worse time to happen, and it shut down a major IND trunk line and caused diversions/problems elsewhere. They were sending "E" trains to 2nd Avenue and turning "A"s and "C"s at Chambers and coming in at Broadway Junction.
wayne
Damn! the A/C Lines screwed up not only the commuters but the other Lines also.
You should have seen the mess that was up on the Fulton Mall. I felt sorry for bus operators on the B25, for they had to bear the brunt of it.
Oh, so that's what happened. I had a dental appointment on W 86th and Columbus. No A/C and I couldn't get to the B from Bway/Nassau; the 1/2 would have taken too much time. Ended up cancelling it and taking a J to Jamaica for the LIRR home. Took me 2 1/2 hours to get home from Downtown, all told.
The 1/2 would have taken too much time? According to the official schedules, the 1/2 takes one or two minutes more than the C from Fulton to 86th (23 minutes on the 1/2 from Chambers to 96th, 20 minutes on the C from Chambers to 86th), and the 1/2 runs more frequently. Or you could have walked to Chambers/Church (or taken the 1/2 one stop) and gotten the A/C there. Or you could have taken a 4/5 straight up to 86th and taken a bus across. If you couldn't afford a loss of two minutes, wouldn't it pay to leave a few minutes earlier next time? (What would you have done if your C train had door problems or if your C train had switched to the express track at 59th with no warning and you had to backtrack from 125th?)
And another choice would have been the N/R from City Hall to get the B at 34th.
The A/C was not running anywhere in lower or midtown Manhattan, as far as I know.
Furthest south the A and C trains went was Chambers St/WTC.
There was something going on before the signals went out in the area. At around 2 pm. a block away from Jay St., Con Ed had the block roped off and had several trucks in the area. There was a distinct odor in the air of something smoldering. The block that was roped off was also entirely closed. Businesses must have been pissed. Noticed that Lawrence St. was partially dark later. Much later, Con Ed was still in the area doing repairs. The smell was even worse.
I heard about that today on NY1, The A/C had a third rail power failure and screwed up commuters for about 3 hours.
Actually, the "A/C" referred to here can be AC power. That's what went out in the area of Jay Street, causing the signals to go kerflooey (that's the technical term {g}).
David
I meant A/C Lines and that can also be referred to Air Condition
AC can be a lot of things; however, it was NOT third rail power that went out.
What was it?
Instead of berating me for the way I answer a question, READ MY ANSWER!!!! I told all SubTalkers what the power problem was...now go back and read it again.
David
Well Damn, you aint gotta get a attitude!
If you were inside a crowded subway train bewteen stations, Not moving and the air confort went out, you'd have an attitude also.
Control Center was advising conductors on the F to tell people to catch 4th Avenue line service at 4th Avenue/9th Street station. I was on the "M", anf I caught the loads BIG TIME!! Had lots of travel alternatives to let the customers know, so I think I handled it well. As much as I love the A Line, I am so glad I wasn't on it yesterday.
Just yesterday while on my way to Lawrence Street station to catch the train to Bay Parkway while heading to work, before the outage, Cond Ed had Lawrence Street all blocked off, and numerous businesses in the area were closed and numerous Con Ed vehicles were present. I think one of them dumb*** workers messed something up to cause that. Them utility workers come around, tweak a few lines, and be causing all kinds of problems.
I cannot link to pictures directly. I've posted the plans at:
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/subways/newwtc.jpg
They look pretty good. I haven't decided on a favorite, but the footprints should be left alone. That is sacred ground.
They all suck. What is so hard about rebuilding two WTC towers? Its a no brainer. You don't even have to pay any new design people. Its the solution that will piss off the fewest people as its a common ground that everyone can reach for. Instead of building something new (and objectional), just rebuild what was there and accepted. You can't please all of the people, but you can at least retain the status quo and not piss off any new people.
Not a bad idea. One change. All four sides of each building will have manned guns on the roofs capable of shooting down any plane. You could hire some veterans to work the guns and keep an eye out. I am DEAD serious. Off coure, there would also be a giant, beautiful memorial. And, if Bloomberg doesn't like it, he can lay down and drop dead. I can't wait until the heartless, selfesh billionaire is out of office. Rudy, where are you!!!!???
If you want to put any type of weapon atop a 110 story office building make sure you put a rail gun. I too am serious.
I would love for those buildings to be built back up. So many memories about going up to the top with friends. I always love the fact that you could pretty much see the twin towers from almost anywhere in NYC and the surrounding areas.
'nuff said
Baloney (balogna.) The Secret Service agents responsible for protection of the White House were 'asleep at the switch' when some old whacko tried to crash a Cesna while they were armed with SOTA surface to air missles. Smucko crashed into Congress office building across the street. Now what is needed is military hero/snipers like Hackathorn. No BS/M21/M25 .308 168 grain HPBT hot load serious whackers...Dep Ur bullets preferred. Nike missles for backup. TA should get some serious backup too. I'd volunteer for the duty... I can paint straight yellow lines...and shoot straight too. Car Inspectors are now required to do any work assigned...cleaning, painting, inspecting, replacing lightbulbs and signage, fixing walls and floors, anything. The 'supressed' cross draw holster on my belt isn't a hidden decoration.
If you mess with the "Juice", you're gonna get squeezed. And it's gonna hurt REAL BAD.
It takes a brain, it takes a pro. To fix a train and make it go.
For once I am without words. Peter
What does OnTheJuice mean?
Ten months on the job, over a year on these postings and someone NOW has to ask? When I started TA train school, we were taught that before you 'bug up a car' (connect auxilliary 600 VDC 100 Amp service, you bang the carbody with your fist, announcing the Car number and make the 'salute' OnTheJuice to warn anyone that cold power systems are about to come alive. I chose 'OnTheJuice' as a internet handle in recognition of the instructor I had at PS 248 Subway School for his kindness, understanding and respect.
'On The Juice' warns of 600 VDC hookup
'In the Hole' warns of BIE/brake discharge/dump of air
'On the Horn' warns of air horn operation
'On the Brakes' warns of brake shoe engagement...keep hands away
'Off the Brakes' means brake release and the car may move
'Hot Shoes' means one shoe is bugged and the others are live
'Brake Shoes on the Floor' warns of tossing used brake shoes
'On the Deck' means one third rail shoe met rail leaving the barn
'Speak English' is self explanatory
'On the Bowl' means taking a dump
'Hurricane is OnTheJuice'..........me, CI Peter
In other words...
If they include a transit hub, then the terrorists win, AND...
If they DON'T include a transit hub, then the terrorists win, AND...
If they do ANYTHING other than rebuilding the entire WTC complex in kind, then the terrorists win, AND...
If they do ANYTHING other than using the site exclusively for a permanent memorial, then the terrorists win, AND...
If we all go about our business, then the terrorists win, AND...
If we fail to cower in fear, then the terrorists win, AND...
If we cling to our constitutional rights, then the terrorists win, AND...
If we give up our constitutional rights, then the terrorists win, AND...
If we disobey the President's orders to be more confident in the economy, then the terrorists win, AND...
If our farts stink and we burp off-key, then the terrorists win, AND so on and so on...
They did not include any structures of over 110 stories in the plans.
WHich plan is the "tallest", and how tall?
Plan 3 has an 85 story tower.
Sounds like "plan 9 from outer space" ... Ed Wood at his best. Glad to see "number one" went down in flames, looks WAY too much like "Rockefeller's self-portrait in rich Corinthian leather" Empire State plaza submarine pen in Smallbany ... my guess is that the one with the twin antennas will pass muster and win because the NYS Broadcaster's Association will want all the antenna space they can find even if they explain it as "oh yeah, can we put yon scared antenna upon yon sacred mountain?"
(old Firesign Theater thing [and you wondered what my inspiration was as a conductor])
Introduction: High Desert, Northern Arizona
Elder #1:
Well, I think it's about time; the way the corn's been growing for the last two or three
generations...
Elder #2:
Look at that herd of buffalo, they're ready!
Elder #1:
Everything's living the Great Spirit's Way - in Harmony!
Elder #2:
He'll be here soon...
Elder #1:
The True White Brother is coming Home... Remember what the Great Spirit said? If we
did what we were supposed to do and lived according to the plan, White Brother would
finish His work in the East and come back to us.
Elder #2:
It'll be nice to have the family together again.
Act 1 - (Music: Flemenco Guitar - Enter the Spaniards)
Conquistidore:
Buenos dias, amigos!
Elder #1:
Hello! You must be the True White Brother!
Conquistidore:
Chore! And Jou muss be the Indians!
Elder #1:
Yes!
Elder #2:
Welcome Home!
Conquistidore:
Welcome to New Spain! This is your new Father, Father Corona...
Priest:
Pox Venucci Ixum! Down on your knees now! Do you recognize what I'm holdin' over
yer heads, lads?
Elder #1:
It's a cross; the symbol of the quartering of the Universe into active and passive
principles.
Priest:
God have mercy on their heathen souls!
Conquistidore:
What the Father means, is what is the cross made of? Gold! ... Have you got any?
Elder #1:
No.
Conquistidore:
What about the seven cities of gold? Phoenix, Tuscon, Las Vegas...
Elder #2:
Uh... This is gold...
Conquistidore:
What's that?
Elder #1:
Corn.
Spaniard #1:
Hey, corn! Now we can make tortillias!
Spaniard #2:
We've been waiting for this for hundreds of years!
Spaniard #3:
I just invented tacos!
Conquistidore:
So this is all you've got?
Elder #1:
Yes... but, aren't you the True White Brother who's supposed to come and live with us
in peace?
Conquistidore:
Chore! Therefore, I claim this rich, verdant pasture land in the name of the Empire of
Spain!
Spaniard #1:
Hey, Capitano, the rain, she's a stop to fall, and the corn, she's all dead!
Conquistidore:
Shut up, Vespucci! I claim this stinking desert in the name of the Empire of Spain forever
- let's go!
All Spaniards in chorus (to the tune of God Bless America):
God bless Vespucciland! Mmm, mm, mm, mmm...
Priest:
Oh, by the way, you're all Catholics now, Domini, Domini, Domini, God bless you and...
Spaniard #2:
C'mon, Father, nobody in their right mind would live in this stinking desert!
Spaniard #3:
C'mon, Cisco...
Act 2 - (Music: Harmonica playing Oh, Suzanna - Enter the Settlers)
Settler #1:
Boy, I'm tired of pushin' west. How long ago'd we leave Goshen?
Settler #2:
About two hours ago... Ain't we ever gonna stop?
Settler #3:
Quiet down now, boys, the wagon boss is gonna speak.
Wagonmaster:
My fellow settlers! We stand here at the edge of civilization, on the banks of the
Mississippi river. Lookin west, at our Destiny! What may appear to the faint-hearted as a
limitless expanse of God forsaken wilderness, is in reality a golden opportunity for
humble, God fearin' people like ourselves and our families and our children and the
generations a-comin' to carve a new life - out of the American Indian!
Settler #1:
Amen!
Settler #2:
Hallelujah!
Settler #3:
You can say that again!
Elder #1:
Welcome, White Brother!
Wagonmaster:
Injuns! Pull the wagons up into a circle!
Elder #1:
Why do you always do that?
Wagonmaster:
We get better reception that way... Mind if I put this antenna up on yonder peak?
Elder #1:
That's our sacred mountain.
Wagonmaster:
This is our sacred antenna. It's shaped like a cross, made of aluminum... Have you got
any aluminum?
Elder #2:
We've still got some corn left...
Settler #1:
Hey, corn! Now we can make whiskey!
Settler #2:
We've been waiting for this for hundreds of years!
Settler #3:
I just invented the Tom Collins!
Wagonmaster:
Here, Injun, want some fire-water?
Elder #1:
No, we were warned by our elders not to drink anything that would make us weak or
silly.
Settler #1:
HA! HA! - Put it in their well!
Elder #1:
That's not a well, it's the eye of the Holy Serpent Mound on which you're standing.
Settler #2:
It's a beaut!
Elder #2:
No, it's a mound.
Settler #2:
And right purty too... Can you move it?
Elder #1:
But why?
Wagonmaster:
Railroad's comin' through - right now!
(Sound: Locomotive braking to a halt, steam hissing and bell clanging.)
Passenger #1:
Why we stoppin, we in Goshen yet?
Conductor:
Can't go no further; this here's Injun territory!
Government Agent:
Well, then, it's Treaty Time!
(Fanfare, Hail to the Chief.)
Government Agent:
My Fellow redskins; on behalf of the Great White Father in Washington and all the
American people, let me just say that we respect you savages for your native ability to
instantly adapt and survive in whatever God forsaken wilderness we move you to... out
there. Sign here.
Conductor:
They did it!
All Passengers:
Yee Haw! Yippee! Hooray!!!
(Repreive fanfare, Hail to the Chief.)
Act 3:
Elder #1:
There's no reason to complain. I mean, it's not so bad out here. We still have our People
and our Ceremonies and the Sun and the Moon and the Sand and the black stuff coming
out of the ground...
Government Agent:
The black stuff coming out of the ground? Civilization, HO!!!
(Fanfare, Gerschwin's Manhattan Rhapsody.)
Elder #1:
Oh, it's nice out here in the desert. No rain, no crops, no White Brother...
(Sound: Tour Bus braking to a halt, air brakes hissing and door opening.)
Bus Driver:
All out for Fort Stinkin' Desert, last Indian reservation for two thousand miles; get 'em
while you can!
Tourist #1:
Isn't it beautiful...
Tourist #2:
Oh, lookit them Indians, they're a funny dark color!!
Tourist #3:
Gopher Dan, ye pesky redskin, which way's Goshen?
(Sound: Gunfire.)
Bus Driver:
Hi, there, colorful replica of America's past, when is the 'exiting-in-its-primitive-splendor'
snake dance going to take place?
Elder #1:
Well, it's usually in August, but with all of our children off at Indian School, there's no
one left to do the ceremonies....
Young Indian:
Hi-ya, Pop!
Elder #1:
Hello, Soaring Eagle! It's good to have you back from school!
Young Indian:
Oh, come on, call me Eddie! I'm an American now!
Elder #1:
What have they been teaching you?
Young Indian:
Just what we need for a better life! French Horn, Itallian, water polo...
Government Agent:
Yes, at the Custer Memorial Indian School, Eddie's one of our Prize students. We're
giving him away next week!
Elder #1:
Oh, my White Brother...
Hippie:
Hey, man, don't let 'em bring you down, now. There's a lot of young people in this
country just like myself who really know where the Indian's at, and don't worry, pretty
soon we're all gonna be out here on the reservation living like Indians, dressing like
Indians and doing all the simple, beautiful things that you Indians do... Got any peyote?
Tourist #1:
Hey, how much is that necklace you'r wearin?
Tourist #2:
Isn't it amazing how they survive in this stinking desert!
Tourist #3:
Ya got any scalps?
Tourist #1:
Lemme git a shot of you and your squaw.
Tourist #2:
Hey, you know how to do the war dance?
Tourist #3:
Yeah! Let's see the war dance.
Tourist #1:
Dance.
Tourist #2:
Dance!
All Tourists: (with gunfire)
DANCE!!!
Bus Driver:
All right, folks, fun's over! Back on the bus!
Elderly Female Tourist:
Where's little Billy Joe?
Elderly Male Tourist:
He's in that run-down outhouse over there, Mama.
Elder #1:
That's our Sun alter.
Government Agent:
Well, Indian, it just goes to show the obvious need to preserve our priceless national
herritage. The government is turning your home into a national monument!
(Fanfare, America the Beautiful.)
Politician:
It behooves me, upon this historic occassion, to dedicate the Stinking Desert National
Indian Monument and Cobalt Testing Range!
Government Agent:
Civilization, HO!
(Sound of nuclear bomb being detonated)
Epilogue
Elder #1:
Well, it's about time; there's been no corn growing for the last few generations, the
buffalo are gone and there's no one left to live in harmony with...
Elder #2:
I wonder where we went wrong?
Elder #1:
Oh, well, let's just keep to the life plan.
Remember what the Great Spirit said, "Follow the peaceful way.."
The True White Brother is bound to come...
Director:
All right, Indians, get ready!
Production Assistant:
Winning of the West, the massacre, take four!
(Sound of movie producer's clap-board)
All Indians:
Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop!
I think the tops of WTC 2 should have a regional air defence command post with billboard style phazed radar arrays and Vulcan Phalanx CIWS providing 360o fire and pop up octal launches w/ Sparrow missiles. In effect, a model day FlaK tower.
Heck, since the CWIS is becoming more and more obsolete, the navy should have a few to spare from upgrades to the RIM-116 RAM.
But Sparrows? Even the new ESSM is limited by range.
Heck, get an old Ticonderoga class ship (perhaps the Vincennes, It's already shot down 1 airliner), park it by the Intrepid and use the Aegis and Standard missile systems to keep everything that even hints at hostility out of a 90 mile circle. Shoot the damn thing down while it's over the LI Sound. Course I wonder what the pilots in the VFR corridor would think flying above something that carries 100 some missiles and could pump more than a million watts of RF into the air.
Course all of this would be like waving a giant white flag to the terrorists. Besides, I have serious doubts as to whether this kind of attack could happen again. We're alerted, and they seem to not like to try the same thing twice.
Do you expect a plane over lower Manhattan that is shot down to simply disappear? It's just possible that it would crash in a heavily populated area, creating havoc.
Plunging scattered debris is less damaging than an intact missile.
Are you so sure about that?
The MK15 CWIS is now considered obsolete against missiles like the SS-N-22 Sunburn, which travels at around Mach 2. The CWIS can hit it alright, that's not the problem, the problem is is that the debris from this missile moving at Mach 2+ strikes the ship, and does a significant amount of damage to things like Engine intakes, sensors, windows, and such. The solution the navy found was to engage the leakers beyond the range of the CWIS with the RIM-116 RAM. Since at sea you need only worry about yourself (I doubt the fish care if some steel strikes the surface), the RAM can destroy the missile at a greater range, negating the effect of the shrapnel left from the missile.
Over land, especially a population center, you do not want a bunch of aluminum, JP5 and other stuff raining down on the people's heads. Yeah sure you just shot that A300 down, kept it from it's objective, and saved thousands of people, but how many people were killed in the apartment building 5 miles uptown that was struck by the CF6 engine (those things are heavy and surprisingly durable)? How about the tail section that smashed the office building a block over? The navy, and, for the most part, the army and air force, have little problem shooting stuff down over sea and over land, but when you are dealing with some 6 million people below your target, and
Falling debris is a lot less deadly than an aircraft missile. Most of the city area is rooftops which to not support large numbers of pedestrians. Also, the tops of buildings often contain floors w/ mechanical or storage rooms. While some people might die from falling debris, those who are injured can be evacuated quicky as they are not in some building, but on easily accesable surface streets.
Says someone who hasn't been hit by falling aircraft debris.
Ever wonder what the impact load of an apartment building roof is? The General Electric CF6-80E1, standard equipment on the Airbus A330, weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 tons. Anyone know how heavily it hits something when falling approximately 500'?
-Hank
Those engines shot through the WTC and landed on busy streets on 9/11 and nobody was hit. With falling debris its more a crap shoot than a holocaust.
I read that a woman on the street was hit and killed by one of those falling engines.
Alright more physics!
OK, lets say, for a nice number, that the plane is moving at 200m/s, thats 447.387mph, and the engine comes off at 500 feet, the horizontal velocity will remain constant throughout it's flight, while the vertical velocity will change at the rate of 9.81 m/s^2, for simplicity's sake lets just let it be 10 meters per second every second.
So the engine falls off at 500 feets, 150 or so meters, and falls to ground level, or the plane just happens to be 500' above the roof of the building, either way.
First the vertical, we'll assume the plane was horizontal when it fell off, and that no forces were applied to it after it fell off.
The equation for this part would be -10X^2+150=Y, so when Y, or height in meters, equals 0, X should equal the time in seconds. Thus the engine takes about 3 seconds to fall to earth. It is doing 76.66 m/s, vertically, when it hits.
But that aint all, remember how we said the plane was doing 200m/s, and that the Horizontal velocity was constant? Well that energy does not disappear. In 3 seconds the engine covers 600 meters, or about 2000 feet, and is still going 200 m/s when it hit the ground.
To get the final or resultant velocity vector, you need to do Pythagoras theorm, A^2+B^2=C^2, thus the engine is moving at a total velocity of 214.188 m/s, and strikes at an angle of 20.97, or about 21 degrees off of horizontal.
GEAC quotes the CF6/F103 engine as between 8,768 and 11,162 lbs, the average of those is about 9900lbs, and that is around 4,500,000 grams.
Kinetic energy is 1/2MV^2, and thus the engine's energy is computed as 1/2(4,500,000)(214.188^2), which equals 1.0322E11 Joules, or about 1/12 the energy of an empty 767 striking under similar conditions. See this message.
An engine, especially one of the size of a CF6, would do considerable damage to a sidewalk, since 1.0322E11 joules is equivilent to 24.670172 tons of TNT.
I dunno the impact load of an Apartment building roof, but I don't think it would tolerate a 10000lb engine moving at 215 m/s.
As a note, I negelcted Wind resistance, there surely would be some, since a wildly flipping engine with all the fixins (pipes and such that would normally come out of the nacelle) would have a rather high drag coefficient, but I'll be damned if I know how to compute it, so my numbers are off, probably a bit on the high side.
"I dunno the impact load of an Apartment building roof, but I don't think it would tolerate a 10000lb engine moving at 215 m/s."
You can skip over the physics, as you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that aircraft debris is something you don't want raining down over densely populated areas.
Remember that the enemy on September 11 was fire, not impact. Many of the buildings in New York City are older and labelled combustible by the fire code. And the label isn't that far from the truth. The spray of flaming jet fuel and debris could do much more damage to countless City blocks of row houses, brown stones, and walk ups than a single impact.
And as an engineer, no, a residential building roof could not handle such a force.
MATT-2AV
P.S.: Don't forget that after separation from the aircraft, the engine will begin to slow to its terminal velocity
And I had thought all the brains had leaked out of this place. Thank you for the needed logic.
-Hank
"Plunging scattered debris is less damaging than an intact missile."
What about plunging flaming debris? If something like that happened over my block, consisting mostly of circa 1900 highly flammable 5-story walk-ups, the firestorm would cause massive loss of life and property.
Stop the plane before it gets to New York? If that's what you have to do, so be it, and may the Lord have mercy on your soul. But New York City is not a fortress, nor will it ever be one. We have a right to live unarmed and not in fear!
MATT-2AV
This entire idea of arming the WTC is a fantasy. Not a chance in a trillion it would ever happen.
In any case, if there ever is a next major attack, it won't be by commercial plane because cockpits will be well safeguarded and pilots won't let anyone in no matter what. It'll be by truck or by ship.
Have you lobbied your congressperson for funding for equipment that allows the Coast Guard to detect explosives and radioactive materials on ships?
Of course I realize that there is no chance of arming the facility. I am just dismayed that some people believe this is the solution to our terrorist problem.
"In any case, if there ever is a next major attack, it won't be by commercial plane because cockpits will be well safeguarded and pilots won't let anyone in no matter what. It'll be by truck or by ship."
I somewhat agree with you here. I don't believe it will be by truck or ship -- I believe it will be by whatever means we don't suspect.
MATT-2AV
He's right. This is why I propose a large freestanding arm that doubles as a flagpole on each side of the new complex. Then, we just whack the jets into the Hudson. It may cause a little wave action, but so do high-speed ferries.
I believe that a new four-track tunnel should be constructed from Hoboken to the new WTC complex. At the new complex, there should be an emergency staging area built to the side for National Guard troops to unload their gear in case of a serious emergency. CSX and NS could bring equipment by rail, while AMTRAK would bring in troops. Then, the response could be coordinated off-street.
Sadly, the terrorists seemed to have won. They were jealous of our economic productivity and their actions are still being felt. If I owned the land, those towers would go back up fast. With a new setup, it will take YEARS before the zoning rules are settled. This economy needs a SHOT IN THE ARM.
Corporate criminals have managed to do as much (if not more, since the bottom hasn't been located yet) damage to the economy as the terrorists did. Let's bomb Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, and Martha Stewart.
-Hank
"Do you expect a plane over lower Manhattan that is shot down to simply disappear? It's just possible that it would crash in a heavily populated area, creating havoc."
That is probably the most intelligent post I have read so far.
I think some people on this board have been watching too much Start Trek or Star Wars or cartoons some combination of the three.
Although I don't really like the idea I'll be devil's advocate. I think having anti-aircraft on the roof would be more for deterrence than anything else. I doubt any plane would ever be shot down.
>>> I think having anti-aircraft on the roof would be more for deterrence than anything else. I doubt any plane would ever be shot down. <<<
It might shoot down a plane, but it would not be any deterrence. To be effective, it would have to be ready to shoot as soon as an aircraft left the regular flight pattern for area airports. This means only a few minutes reaction time and on site control of weapons which would have to be armed and ready 24 hours a day, and constantly tracking aircraft in the area.. How long would it be until a mistake like the one made by the Vincennes occurred? Or some less than stable person fired a weapon. No sane person in government would allow such a situation.
If there were such a setup, how effective would it be after ten years of manning the site without ever firing? The disbelief factor would slow down reaction time to the point where the system would be useless. We have already seen military ships with defensive weapons hit by Exocet missiles that these weapons and trained operators were supposed to stop.
Tom
I wasn't going to respond here but much to my shock and dismay, an article is STILL out there in public that has been my OWN little nightmare scenario. The BIGGEST mistake is the strange inbred military conditioned mind that continues to fight the *LAST* war. That and the more serious mistake of underestimating your enemy.
Go ahead and put all the cannons you want on top of skyscrapers. The terrorists have proven time and time again that they're not idiots as much as we'd like to think of them as cartoon character morons. Each time they've struck, it's always been something different, taking full advantage of "soft pink underbelly" and the element of surprise. I doubt we'll see another big plane used as a weapon.
While the media falls over itself with scenarios of germs, nukes and other "same old same old" thoughts, one of the things that scared the crap out of me (and something I made the state officials I know aware of to pass along up the chain) was one of taking out our computers, our "high tech subway cars" and pretty much everything else that isn't built from relays, vacuum tubes and "old tech" (this was the Russian's scenario of EMP warfare and why they chose NOT to go with modern semiconductors in military critical operations) ... check THIS out ...
http://popularmechanics.com/science/military/2001/9/e-bomb/print.phtml
Don't yell at me for posting this folks, the terrorists already had it in September 2001 ... and "our side" already knows about this scenario, has for YEARS. Only civilians have no clue about this stuff (and study groups). Everything with transistors and chips in it DEAD in a nanosecond and won't reboot.
So go ahead, put yon cannon on yon sacred mountain ... sure hope we've "rad-hardened" critical infrastructure by now but then again, one of the things that drove me OUT of government service was that nobody cared what I thought - the folks who would put cannons on top of buildings ALWAYS prevailed ...
Footnote, I worked in the "Communications Division" of the New York State Public Service Commission until 1995 when I came to work for the security/privacy software company I work for now. I brought this up years ago as something that we needed to protect against (EMP from nuclear detonations at the time with hints of what was described in the article) ... I was dismissed by every level of the NYPSC when I suggested that this was something that needed to be designed for which, among other advice I offered as an electronics engineer was overruled by politicos and their "counsel." That's why I left.
But were something like what I described to actually occur, the residents of New York (and a few other states) would be literally screwed. And yes, anyone who has the electronics engineering or technical background will concur - there's plenty of study materials out there. I SERIOUSLY worry about this scenario though, and fortunately SOME at the FEMA level and higher have taken the advice even if our own "politicos" refuse to face it. Alas, Y2K's outcome made me even more of a lone voice in the woods on this scenario but I can assure you it's quite real. That's one of the reasons why I brought it up HERE of all places - it's a question BEGGING to be asked of our "homeland security" types and I figured there'd be some people here who might want to ask their "leaders" what's being done about it. The answer should come as no surprise though and that's what's unfortunate.
At least in my CURRENT incarnation as a software designer, the folks I work for LISTEN to me and allow me to design my code to a level of paranoia I am accustomed to. :)
That Popular Mechanics article isn't going to tell anyone how to do anything unpleasant. There's no useful physics in it at all. EMP may be a threat achieveable by low budget devices (as opposed to massive nuclear bombs), but if so no one is going to figure out how to make it happen from that article.
I wasn't really worried about that since there has already been evidence of "interest in TESLA COILS" among "Al Qaeda" (sorry, no Arabic character set here to print it correctly) and it is upon the fabled "Tesla coil" that such would function. For those who live in a "bunker mentality" (our software customers expect same for us to keep ahead of all the "computer backdoors" of the last few years and that's the mindset I have for a "living" (pity the state wasn't interested in those who can think "outside the voting booth") the means between that article and reality is pretty thin, thus my whole point about our gravest mistake thinking that the "diaper heads" have the cognitive capacity of a two year old ... fact is, all of this is "out there" and has been for YEARS.
What got ME to think of mentioning it here is criticism of the TA for "there's got to be RELAYS in the traction circuits" and "how come computers running NT aren't in the motoroman's cab?" and a number of other "let's trust INTEL to keep us secure" that have pretty much put very dangerous electronics into everyday life while we collectively snicker at vacuum tubes, relays and things that EMP won't completely destroy even if the power's out. The R9's, if the motors were cut out would probably run if they were not connected to commercial power. The 142's would likely have internal meltdowns. As an electronics engineer, my sensibilities have always been towards reliability and while electromechanical components and electron tubes have always had *HIGH* MBDF's, in the scenario I desribed, enough of the system would survive that perhaps some relays with opened coils may need replacing, but largely the damage would be minimal. In a SILICON-based realm however, it would be total unless protected by cages and schottky diodes on every external input. And even THEN, most semiconductors would revert to beach sand.
But serious stuff if exploited and while we're debating another tax cut as a society, we might really wonder what is being done to harden the CRITICAL infrastructures against such an attack. What REALLY irks me (and has been part of my own emotional attack on the ReClueless party is that all they care about is big oil, and the "internet economy" which is now officially DEAD in their eyes is GREATLY at risk.) Enron's done, long live pets.com. Heh.
Bottom line though is this little ditty is out there and my primary purpose in raising it is that we have to stop worrying about every plane overhead and whose sneakers we're sniffing. The terrorists AIN'T morons, and UNLESS we become aware of EVERYTHING that ain't right, and our leaders insist on thinking inside the "Russkies are going to see the big teat behind Ashcroft in the gallery" mentality, the NEXT surprise will be just as shocking as the WTC collapse. And *JUST* as predictable for those of us who think "outside the voting booth." I saw it coming when the '93 attack failed. There was an OBVIOUS obsession there - "we didn't get it THIS time, we WILL next time." And so they did.
One needs to be able to think LIKE the enemy in order to thwart them. And the REPUBLICAN PARTY and its underfunding of EVERYTHING has driven away (including Paturkey) anyone with the CAPABILITY of NOT being a damned drone. That was my intended point here ... and here we go again with the clueless elephant, another "tax cut," another "reduction in payscales to drive out people with a brain" and an even more effective terrorist attack as a result of all that underfunding of the brain trust. We haven't learned $HIT. As Ronnie Raygun said, "there you go again" ... sheesh.
The first is that very-high-frequency pulses, in the microwave range, can worm their way around vents in Faraday Cages.
Yes -- the problem is how you generate such a high frequency, high energy EMP. They have a hard enough time generation high frequency EM wave that will power a fucking AC traction motor. Pfffffft.
The second concern is known as the "late-time EMP effect," and may be the most worrisome aspect of FCG devices.
Many telephone exchanges, etc are now optically isolated. This means when electric current flow along a piece of wire, before they enter the electronics they are converted to light and then back to current again. Any installation with a fibre optic cable connexion would be forced to do this electical-optical conversion. "Late-time EMP" has no effect on fiber optic infrastructure. The damage will be severe, but only to optical coupler links, if the electronics itself is enclosed in a Faraday's cage.
The power connexion is more prone to attack, which means better excess-current isolation devices are needed.
AEM7
Ummm ... BUZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz! Wrong answer. Whilst the "telecommunications act of 1984" and its subsequent PROMISED us "fiber to the HOME" ever mindful of this, our elephantine politicos decided to cut the telcoNs a "tax break" against the "unfair taking" ... the DEAL was that the telcos would build fiberoptic to your APARTMENT and that the copper would be ditched, received by COMPETITORS to your local telco until such time as THEY ran fiber to your APARTMENT. That was the "Enron competition" bill of goods we were sold by Ronnie Raygun, Newt ("she turned me into a NEWT!") Gingrich and the other Republicraps ... and WHY? Because of all this. Whoops. Screwed again, just like your 401k.
YES, Fiber is immune. The ELECTRONICS are NOT. And as long as COPPER remains in the telecom "web" then we're just as screwed as without fiber. THAT was my whole point ... and you can't send POWER over glass as yet, so copper remains there. Sorry for the reality check, but we've all been lied to.
And as long as COPPER remains in the telecom "web" then we're just as screwed as without fiber.
Yes, but the degree of screwing is different. A twisted-pair based network with relays or solid state electronics would take a longer time to fix following an EMP attack compared with a telephone network based on twisted pair from your home to the exchange, where it is optically isolated, and switched through electronics that are enclosed in a Faraday's cage, where the trunk switch-to-switch transmission is made by fibre.
AEM7
Reality check (no offense) ... while most computers destroyed by lightning take it down the PHONE line (I worked for the PSC, know the numbers) it's almost EVENLY split by destruction down the power lines. Even on battery operations, bear in mind that a mere 6 feet of cable between the printer and a computer is a 40 wavelength antenna and can induce QUITE a bit of voltage from a strong microwave signal even if it's not connected to power OR phone.
Our own MORONS buried their heads in the sand over this, the reality is unless your electronics are buried in a WELDED gold box under 6 feet of water in an underground pool (at least 30 feet down), kiss it goodbye ... such is the reality of what this weapon can do. Wish I could put it happier, but math is math and watts for tots are based on CONSTANTS ... immutable as all hell - only variation is the yield of a particular device.
Hell, you can fry chips in a PC with the static electricity from your body. When I work on a PC, I use a wrist strap that grounds the tech.
The "threat" is orders of magnitude higher though. Anyway, don't want to appear to be more obsessed with it than anyone should be, but figured the exercise in reading all that would point to just how *FRAGILE* our "connected world" has become and just how dependent we've all become on services delivered by *WIRE* ...
The "TELECOM ACT" which gave us WORLDCON, and Enron and Cheney Electric was FUNDED out of YOUR wallet to obsolete copper. But we was ROBBED and there's STILL no "uniform fiber infrastrucutre" that we've been paying "FCC charges" and "wire investment" charges for more than a DECADE to replace that natty crap with genuine glass. This whole EMP thing is the *REASON* for those charges and "competition" to pay for the conversion. Is anyone feeling RIPPED OFF yet? Or do we have to wait for this all to happen just like our 401k happened? Same republican bastards screwed us here as well ... came out of YOUR pocket. Anyone want to ask where what you PAID for might be?
Just because a criminal broke through your front door dosen't mean you can now leave it open as "the rotten scoundrel would never do it the same way twice." The terrorists are smart enough to use any vulnerable opening, not just ones they haven't tried yet. We need to lock the front door before locking up the rest of the house.
What I meant by deterrence is that terrorists wouldn't try to do it knowing there was anti-aircraft up there. Why spend years of planning for something doomed for failure?
>>> What I meant by deterrence is that terrorists wouldn't try to do it knowing there was anti-aircraft up there <<<
Jeff;
I fully understood what you meant, I think the whole idea would not be a deterrence because of the complications I stated. I have a background working with SAMs. They are not something you turn on and leave sitting around until you need them.
And BTW, using that reasoning there should be no crime in New York, since the city's excellent police force acts as a deterrence.
Tom
["And BTW, using that reasoning there should be no crime in New York, since the city's excellent police force acts as a deterrence.
If there was a cop stationed in the same exact place every day and everybody knew it, someone planning a crime would not pick that spot.
>>> If there was a cop stationed in the same exact place every day and everybody knew it, someone planning a crime would not pick that spot. <<<
Or they would take into account that the cop was there and take steps to neutralize him. (This happens regularly to armoured truck guards who are armed and supposidly alert for an attack.) In any case, stationing police to stand guard 24/7 at a place where crime might happen is prohibitively expensive. Stationing an operational antiaircraft weapons systems and crews on a skyscraper would likewise be prohibitively expensive.
Tom
How much does it cost to operate NORAD.
Lots
That is a poor analogy. A better one is, does a store with an armed cop buying something inside get robbed? No. Does a tower with a SAM battery on top get blown up? No. And if SAM's are too much of a problem, a SkySweeper battery should be more than enough to deal w. hi-jacked airliners.
If the top of WTC 2 was a regional air defence station w/ all the new hi-tech AEGIS style radar units then the marginal cost of manning gun batteries would be 0. The WTC air defence command center would be responsible for identifying targets of potential threat and could also tie in w/ marine tracking stations to provide a stragiegic view of the whole area. RAM missiles or a Vulcan CIWS would provide area defence from missiles or large hostile aircraft.
How long would it be until a mistake like the one made by the Vincennes occurred?
That wasn't a mistake. It was called revenge on Iran.
We have already seen military ships with defensive weapons hit by Exocet missiles that these weapons and trained operators were supposed to stop.
If you are referring to the USS Stark, the CIWS automatic system was shut down at the time and the ship was effectivly caught w/ its pants down.
"I think having anti-aircraft on the roof would be more for deterrence than anything else. I doubt any plane would ever be shot down."
They would just pick another unarmed building as their target. There are plenty of high-rise buildings in New York, most of which were not built as strong as the World Trade Centers. Do you have to arm these other buildings too?
MATT-2AV
A SAM battery can cover a radius as large as 100 miles around the city.
Back in the 50's-70's we had a ring of SAM batteries around all major US cities. The 9/11 planes were known about 15-45 minutes before imapce. If just a small fraction of our former Air Defence system had been operational they would have been shot down far away from Manhattan or the large population centers near it.
While I doubt that domestic passenger flights could e used as flying missiles again, there is a threat from overseas flights or air cargo flights. If we get a report of an aircraft that has been taken over and it is heading toward a major US city we need a system to shoot it down, just like we would a Russian bomber.
>>> The 9/11 planes were known about 15-45 minutes before imapce. If just a small fraction of our former Air Defence system had been operational they would have been shot down far away from Manhattan or the large population centers near it. <<<
A great re-write of history, Mike. No one would have ordered an airliner shot down prior to the impact of the first one on the WTC. If anyone had even an inkling that those planes were headed toward the WTC, some kind of an evacuation of the WTC would have been started prior to the impact.
Tom
Maybe not #1, but what about plane #2. I think in the future when a large jetliner alters its course over rural America and w/o any communications streaks towards a population center things will be different.
>>Not a bad idea. One change. All four sides of each building will have manned guns on the roofs capable of shooting down any plane. You could hire some veterans to work the guns and keep an eye out. I am DEAD serious<<
Yes and how about we arm the Empire state building with a ray gun to shoot down anything flying which comes within a mile of it. And why not build a Airforce feild near thhe United nations. Look, protecting famous landmarks is the governments job rather if we like it or not. So instead of arming the top of a building with guns, lasers and cannons, why not just let the government do their job.
>>Not a bad idea. One change. All four sides of each building will have manned guns on the roofs capable of shooting down any plane. You could hire some veterans to work the guns and keep an eye out. I am DEAD serious<<
Yes and how about we arm the Empire state building with a ray gun to shoot down anything flying which comes within a mile of it. And why not build a Airforce feild near the United nations. Look, protecting famous landmarks is the governments job rather if we like it or not. So instead of arming the top of a building with guns, lasers and cannons, why not just let the government do their job.
Reality check: rudy was a self induldgant womanizing a-hole.
Reality check: rudy was a self induldgant womanizing a-hole.
It seems that reality to you means the same thing as fantasy to the rest of the world.
Doesn't it get confusing?
I agree with everything you said except "womanizing". Womenizing is not bad!!!
Sure it is ... the "Enron party" made hay of all that for eight years. "Morality" doesn't apply to corporations though. :)
I agree, anything less than 110 stories is a coward's way out.
The WTC was also a very easy and cheap to build design. It was like building w/ Lincoln Logs. It was made out of a small number of mass produced components that were just stuck onto each other. Some fancy pants building that requires complx computer models and plans to fit everything together is going cost more and give less. Trying to be "new" was what made WTC I less than ideal. Now they are trying to be "new" again. WTC 2 is going to be a generic piece of crap and once the novelty wears off it will be as monumentus and swe inspiring as the WFC or Penn Center in Philly. The park will be too much of a memorial for any serious public use (how many people take time every day to eat lunch at the Vietman Mem?) and the buildings will be no better than any other building on Manhattan. No more will someone arrive in Manhatten on a train, walk out of the concourse and look up and up and up and up and the giant gleaming monument before them.
Far too many times as a railfan I have had to look at some historical info kiosk that has a picture of the "way it was" or the station that used to be here. I thought we had reached a point in our society where such treasured were saved. It looks like there's another "way it was" kiosk in our future.
I plan to visit the WTC site while it is still empty, but unless they build it back I will never go above ground there again, not even to see the memorial. I refuse to be a party to a national embrassment.
I absolutely loved the WTC's design. Functional and unique, and an accomplishment to be proud of. And there were TWO of 'em. Three of the tallest buildings of the world in one city, there's some serious bragging rights and tourist dollars.
I can't even count how many people I know that want them to be built back the way they were, or at least close to it. Some less informed actually expected it.
I can't even count how many people I know that want them to be built back the way they were, or at least close to it. Some less informed actually expected it.
That would be nice. It's bad enough that we destroyed some of our own landmarks and great buildings, such as Penn Station, etc. But for people to come here and destroy them for us is not tolerable. We must rebuild tall. When you try to get over the fact and shock that so many people died that day, you look at that spot in our great city and see a void, a wound. The wound must heal. Yes, there will always be a scar there, but to have anything less there than there was on Septemeber 10th would leave the wound an ulcer, and that never fully heals.
ARE YOU SMOKING CRACK????? I'm at a loss for words after reading this post..............
Ok
The WTC was also a very easy and cheap to build design. It was like building w/ Lincoln Logs. It was made out of a small number of mass produced components that were just stuck onto each other.
Yup, it's that easy. That's why there are only 25 buildings in the whole world over 1000 ft tall. In fact, one of those 25 is a 1200 ft building I personally made out of Legos. There are only two buildings that used the same structural layout as WTC (hint: those two are 1WTC and 2WTC)
Some fancy pants building that requires complx computer models and plans to fit everything together is going cost more and give less.
You're right, it makes you wonder why computers were designed in the first place. You know, since they make everything cost more and the quality is less.
The truth is that structural computer programs like GTSTRUDL cut down the time required to perform structural analysis by months or in something as complex as WTC, years. If you've ever did a structural analysis on a simple 2-D truss by hand (I have), you'll know what a pain in the ass it is.
______________
The rest of your post is rational and makes sense. I'm not going to form an opinion about what is built until I see what will finally be built.
There are only two buildings that used the same structural layout as WTC
According to the History Channel's thing on the WTC some buildings in (Baltimore?) were built using a similar design.
Some fancy pants building that requires complx computer models and plans to fit everything together is going cost more and give less.
You're right, it makes you wonder why computers were designed in the first place. You know, since they make everything cost more and the quality is less.
Ummm, he wasn't knocking computers, he was knocking the concept of designing something new.
Are you talking about this? If so, it looks as if this building is supported by the columns at the corners of the building. Notice how there are no intermediate columns between the coner columns. The NYC WTC was supprted by the many small columns which you know about.
If someone uses a computer for something, it's because that person knows that the computer will make that task more fast efficent, otherwise they would do it some other way. To say that designing a building on a computer will cost more and give less quality, means you are knocking computers.
BTW, if they were going to rebuild the WTC exactly the way it was (which is impossible, due to newer and better building materials), they'd be using comuters models.
New and better materials? The WTC was built using American forged Bethlehem Steel. There is no better material on the face of this planet. Beth Steel went into some of the best buildings this world will ever see, one example being the Verazanno Narrows bridge. The WTC withstood the impact of a 500mph, 100x100 foot flying BOMB. I think that the basic design is a winner and should be rebuilt.
There are people whose careers are dedicated to steel R&D, what do you think they've been doing for the past 30 years? The steel of 30 years ago, even Beth steel, is not the same as the steel of today. I don't need to rewrite my post about the different properties of materials and how they affect their placement in a structure.
Most of that R&D goes into making the process cheaper, not necessarily better.
I can argue this all day and night. The simple fact is that the steel today is stronger and lighter than the steel of 15, 30, and 100 years ago.
Read the second paragraph of this from the American Iron and Steel Institute. If this doesn't convince you, nothing will.
There are people whose careers are dedicated to steel R&D, what do you think they've been doing for the past 30 years? The steel of 30 years ago, even Beth steel, is not the same as the steel of today. I don't need to rewrite my post about the different properties of materials and how they affect their placement in a structure.
"I don't need to rewrite my post about the different properties of materials and how they affect their placement in a structure."
No, you don't. At least not for me. Don't worry about JM -- he's a bit nostalgic. I once argued ad infinitum about the O&M beneifts of an R-142 over a Redbird.
MATT-2AV
"New and better materials? The WTC was built using American forged Bethlehem Steel. There is no better material on the face of this planet."
Yeah... back in the 1960's.
Times have changed, and there have been vast improvements in steel over the past 40 years.
If it was your money, why rebuild in the 2000's with outdated and suboptimal materials?
MATT-2AV
You have a naive view of progress. In this day and age progress means cheaper, not better.
No I don't -- steel really has improved in quality over 40 years. Just take a look at the changes made to the ASME and ANSI standards since 1960.
MATT-2AV
You have little room to talk. You believe cars from the 50s and 60s are safer than cars today. You know why cars are safer today? Because the MATERIALS have gotten much better. I gave you rock solid proof of something everyone already knows, and you're STILL not getting it!!?? Matt is a practicing civil engineer, and I'm civil engineering student. This crap is our lives, we know what we're talking about.
Yes, construction may often be cheaper, but the materials used for construction per se are much better.
But you have to examine this on a case-by-case basis. I spend each and every day designing repairs to New York City's water and water pollution control systems.
Construction of these facilities, most of which occurred right after World War II, was horrendously poor in quality. Moses built the water tunnels and plants the same way he built his highways: as cheap as possible with no regard for quality. I can't count the tens of billions being spent on repairs and rehabilitation.
As for steel, there is a whole history of engineering failures due to old steel technology, starting with one of the most famous disasters of all times: The Titanic. Please find below an abstract for a particularly interesting paper on the role of steel failure in the tragic loss of life.
"The purpose of this paper is to explain the material failures and design flaws that contributed to the rapid sinking of the Titanic and to review the changes that were made to ship designs and safety regulations as a result of the disaster. Specifically, brittle fracture of the hull steel, failure of the rivets, and flaws in the design of the watertight compartments will be analyzed as causes of the disaster. Human factors that contributed to the sinking will not be reviewed. Effects of the Titanic disaster that will be discussed include changes made in ship design, such as double hulls and taller bulkheads, and stricter standards for safety regulations governing ships at sea, such as mandatory use of electronic communication, minimum lifeboat capacities, and the development of the ice patrol."
You can find other examples online by searching for structural steel failures.
MATT-2AV
There are only two buildings that used the same structural layout as WTC (hint: those two are 1WTC and 2WTC)
Actually the Aon Center (formerly Amoco Building, formerly Standard Oil Building) here in Chicago uses almost an identical structural system as the WTC towers, and it's almost as tall (80+ floors vs. 110).
And it's every bit as butt-ugly as the WTC towers were, too. The Aon Center is utterly anonymous compared to the Sears Tower and Hancock Center, just as the WTC towers would have been completely anonymous on the NYC skyline if they hadn't visually bullied everything else around them. Just because they were big and stuck out like sore thumbs didn't make them examples of good design.
Ironically, the Aon Corporation was also a major tenant of the WTC. After 9/11, many surviving Aon workers in NYC were transferred to the Chicago office, and the resemblance of the Aon Center to the WTC was a bit unsettling to them, so say the least.
Like it or not, people are going to have to face up to the fact that the WTC towers will NEVER be rebuilt in their original form. Eat it, swallow it, deal with it. They were a horrible design in 1972, and they were a horrible design on September 10th, 2001. The tragic circumstances of their demise doesn't change that. Rebuilding them wouldn't bring back a single one of the 3000 lives that were lost, and it would be just plain creepy to build them back and pretend that nothing had happened. It's okay to miss the old WTC, just like I miss a lot of my deceased relatives, but you don't see me advocating that my relatives' bodies be cloned.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You're not joking, it does look just like them. And you're right, it is built like the WTC, notice how all the columns go all the way down I stand corrected. But still, if it was such a cheap and easy design, we'd see many more examples.
It's okay to miss the old WTC, just like I miss a lot of my deceased relatives, but you don't see me advocating that my relatives' bodies be cloned.
Don't tell that to Ted Williams' son.
It's not really the same. Since the brain would be preserved, it would be the same person.
How were they a bad design? They were a moden equavalent to the great hand sculpted buildings made back in the day. The WTC made you go WOAH! LIKE IT OR NOT WE NEED BUILDINGS THAT MAKE PEOPLE GO WOAH! It makes people feel proud to be Americans and New Yorkers and that's something this country is desperately lacking. We need to get back into the bussiness of doing things because we CAN. Hoover Dam, Men on the Moon, Golden Gate Bridge. Those are what made this country great. Not panzy ass crap that can bee seen in any city on earth.
Not panzy ass crap that can bee seen in any city on earth.
That reminds me, I thought Alternative 1 resembled Empire State Plaza in Albany...
It does make you go "wow" for a city of about 95,000. Not very fitting for NYC, though.
In a nutshell, the WTC towers were bad design because they wiped out an entire city neighborhood and replaced it with a barren plaza that sucked the life out of everything around it. The worst of 1960's design mentality. In detailing, the entire WTC complex had all the architectural merit of an airport hotel in Indianapolis.
On the NYC skyline, the towers were about as refined as a couple of pro wrestlers butting into a family photo. They were completely out of scale with everything else around them, and their design reflected nothing but contempt for the rest of the city.
The same architect who designed the WTC also designed the infamous Pruitt-Igoe public housing complex in St. Louis, which was proven to be a dismal failure and was demolished the same year the WTC was completed. Need I say more?
Don't get me wrong, I love tall skyscrapers, and I'd personally like to see something tall and magnificent get built on the WTC site. The New York skyline looks incomplete without a "mountain" to visually anchor the "foothills" of lower Manhattan.
However, a building's ability to make people go "whoah!" isn't necessarily indicative of good design. The atrium lobby of the Times Square Marriott Marquois also makes people go "whoa!", but that building is almost universally accepted as an example of how not to build an urban high-rise.
For better examples of skyscraper design, I'd point to:
Rockefeller Center, New York, by Ramond Hood: Shows how a group of skyscrapers can be successfully woven into the urban life of a city.
Empire State Building, New York, by Shreve, Lamb and Harmon: Has a graceful presence on the skyline that, while far taller than anything else around it, compliments rather than bullies its neighbors.
John Hancock Center, Chicago, by Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill: Perfectly conveys its muscular structural system far more gracefully than the WTC ever did.
Sears Tower, Chicago, by Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill: Its series of setbacks helps break down the mass of the building against the rest of the skyline, while not compromising its massive presence.
Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank Building, Hong Kong, by Norman Foster: Shows how cutting-edge design and technology can create a successful skyscraper design in a dense urban setting.
John Hancock Tower, Boston, by I.M. Pei: Its sleek, reflective surface changes colors with the sky, sometimes standing out and sometimes almost invisible. Its beauty is in its subtlety.
Not all of these are as big or tall as the WTC, and these cover a pretty broad spectrum of design styles, but they each have something unique to contribute to skyscraper design. They may or may not make people go "whoa!", but they're each examples of good design and should be looked to for inspiration in the new WTC plans.
-- David
Chicago, IL
What about the Japanese Metropolitan Government Buildings designed by Tange Kenzo? I'd put that on my list of great skyscapers
I haven't studied those buildings closely enough to comment intelligently about them. Based on the few photos I've seen of them, I'd say I'm not a huge fan of those buildings, but then, my opinion may change if I had more and better photos and/or drawings to look at.
With the exception of the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank Building, I've personally visited all the buildings in my list, and I'm very familiar with each of them. With the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank, I've seen a great deal of photos and drawings of that building, and I've also visited a number of Norman Foster's other projects (including his own studios in London), so I'm pretty familiar with his work. He's one of the best architects alive in the world today.
Since you bring up the subject of Japanese architects, I'm also a huge fan of Tadao Ando, who does beautiful things with bare concrete. However, since he's done no high-rise projects (he concentrates on smaller-scale buildings like houses and churches), I didn't see fit to include him in my list.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Do you have any pictures of the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank Building? I'd like to see them.
I can also find some good pictures of the Tokyo Metropolitan Building if you'd like. BTW...I like that concrete housing devleopment by Tadao Ando. Very nice design.
Now what about the transit hub itself? What should they design that like? Maybe an glass ceiling flush with the ground outside the complex would be nice to people exiting from the PATH, 1/9, 2, 3, A, C, E, N, R could look up and see the buildings from inside would be nice. Something kinda like what I've seen of the Old Penn Station.
He posted links in message 357926
"…the WTC towers were bad design because they wiped out an entire city neighborhood and replaced it with a barren plaza that sucked the life out of everything around it. "
If this is ur first point, you've just manage to condemn a thousand other buildings, parks, open spaces in one shot. If ur going to make a statement like that, you have to be more specific
Any design must first and foremost fit the area its in. The building u list are beautiful and fit the areas they are in, but what works in one area, doesn't necessarily work in another.
"On the NYC skyline, the towers were about as refined as a couple of pro wrestlers butting into a family photo."
These were the tallest structures in NYC, they could help but stick out as a point of emphasis. Something on such a scale as the WTC leave little room for excess, (and again, what works in one area, doesn't necessarily work in another)
On a side not, I thought it was Noguchi that designed the exterior
of the WTC
Overall my point is, given the scale of these 2 building, compared to its surrounding, may not have been the best, but not the worst design.
Final note, standing next to the WTC, you could not help but go whoa, and the simple lines up the sides emphasized that
"They may or may not make people go "whoa!", but they're each examples of good design and should be looked to for inspiration in the new WTC plans."
And I don't believe that has been done.
As you mention, the architectural merit of the World Trade Centers is subject to much debate, to say the least.
Fair enough. A better urban planning and architectural concept should be considered.
But (and this is a big but) why stop there?
The World Trade Centers made millions of people go "whoa!" every day. That has been taken away from us. You would think that, as an engineer, I would be satisfied with saying: build better and don't worry about the "whoa!".
The need to replace the "whoa!" is an irrational and emotional need that people feel. Whatever is rebuilt must be at least as grand as what was taken away. To do less is to take the cowards way out. We won't build dramatic structures because someone may come and knock them over.
Its a very slippery slope; once you disengage from prominence, its hard to get back.
MATT-2AV
>>> For better examples of skyscraper design, I'd point to: <<<
Only the Empire State building with no mention of its rival, the Chrysler building?
Tom
Also the 3 buildings on Ave of the Americas right across from Rockefeller Center, each about 50 stories high also look alot like the WTC. I hang out there alot, especially at 1251 Ave of the Americas, that's my favorite. Love the closely spaced column look, it makes the building look sleek and tall. Also the Chase building as well has similar construction.
1) "Rebuilding them wouldn't bring back a single one of the 3000 lives that were lost…"
2) "… and it would be just plain creepy to build them back and pretend that nothing had happened. It's okay to miss the old WTC"
No arguement on point 1), but as for point 2) it feels just as creepy looking up everytime and not seeing them there anymore.
They had a big influence on NYCs skyline. If anything, there grandure was one of its aspect that should be restored. Noguchi had a simple design that worked.
Building something back that is just going to disappear in the skyline is like quitle cowering in the corner
Another man with a sensible point of view. It's good to see that we don't only have people obsessing over "a whole in the skyline" on this board. People seem to forget that the towers were hated when they were first built. They were impractical and considered an eyesore. Only in their destruction have they come to be so revered. It is the same case that you will always have that one person who says "he was such a nice quiet guy" when someone, ANYONE dies. No matter how nasty and hateful that dead person may have been.
"Like it or not, people are going to have to face up to the fact that the WTC towers will NEVER be rebuilt in their original form. Eat it, swallow it, deal with it. They were a horrible design in 1972, and they were a horrible design on September 10th, 2001. The tragic circumstances of their demise doesn't change that. Rebuilding them wouldn't bring back a single one of the 3000 lives that were lost, and it would be just plain creepy to build them back and pretend that nothing had happened. It's okay to miss the old WTC, just like I miss a lot of my deceased relatives, but you don't see me advocating that my relatives' bodies be cloned."
How were they a horrible design? They were a raw testiment to American might and power. A straight sided box has no inherant engineering advantages what so ever. The towers didn't taper or use interesting shapes to achieve their great height, they just gave the laws of physics the middle finger and stood up straight and tall. It opitimised the American Juggernaught and how when we set our mind to something we accomplish it. The design was amazing because of what it represented.
>>> They were a raw testiment to American might and power. A straight sided box has no inherant engineering advantages what so ever.... It opitimised the American Juggernaught <<<
I guess the sight of a Wal-Mart store really turns you on also. :-)
Tom
Maybe if you stood one on end.
I agree with you. The real tragedy is all the people killed and the economic and tourism effects it had in NYC. As far as the buildings are concerned I have always thought of the Empire State Bldg as the greatest bldg in NY. Whenever I thought of the NYC Skyline I think of Midtown with the ESB, the Chrysler Bldg, & Rockafeller Center. When I do think of Lower Manhattan I think of the Financial District, Battery Park, the Seaport, and of course Jeremy's Ale House.
Sarge, if that's how you're going to misspell Rockefeller, you should go all the way-Rockafella.
-Hank :)
I'd like to say it was a typo but it wasn't. I usually use a dictionary when I'm not sure of a word when I post on a forum but since they don't have proper nouns in the dictionary I didn't try it, I just prayed it was right.
What a wuzz. Geeze your more of a wimp then John
Actually the Aon Center (formerly Amoco Building, formerly Standard Oil Building) here in Chicago uses almost an identical structural system as the WTC towers
Add to that list the Railtrack head office in London (I forget what it's called, it's right by Euston station and for a time was called the Railtrack house). It's not as tall, only 14 stories high. Also much narrower.
Well, for once I agree with David, they weren't a particularly good design, but then I see no reason why they should not build similar large towers in that plot to an alternative design. The fact that they are "large" and visually bully everything else around it is important. Maybe it's 60s design mentality, maybe it replaced entire city neighbourhoods, but it's an important landmark and a nice anchor to the NYC skyline. To design something else in place that doesn't vaguely live up to the splendour (or the visual bullying effect) of the WTC towers would be as disasterous as replacing the old Penn Station in New York with the much more functional structure which stands there today. Both were NYC landmarks, although in quite different ways.
I miss Penn Station. I will miss the WTC.
"They were a horrible design in 1972, and they were a horrible design on September 10th, 2001."
Say what you will about their architecture, but I believe September 11th was their finest moment -- innovative engineering permitted tens of thousands of people to leave with their lives. Many other structures built throughout history would have shattered on impact.
MATT-2AV
My heart bled for New Yorkers when I sat watching those awful scenes on my screen on 9/11, and I cried when I saw Ground Zero for myself in November. But -- I agree with David Cole that the towers had little architectural merit -- they were just big, nothing else. And he is dead right about the 1960s mentality that destroyed whole neighbourhoods to put up sterile monuments (I blame Le Corbusier, myself). To me over here in England, the Empire State Building is the one that has always symbolised New York.
I'm not sure about which of the six designs I like best -- they all look a bit uninspired -- but I can't see any merit in rebuilding the WTC just like it was. Something that restores the original pre-WTC street layout, but as pedestrian streets with protection against the weather, would be good.
Fytton.
Just said on the news this Saturday is the first public hearing at thte Javits Center on the 6 ideas
There was a plan to build them back as is, but leave the top 40 floors empty (except elevatior access for an observation deck)
A lot of the designs coming out for this are impractical and insane, there was on that looked like a pair of pants slacks; another building on its side to bridge the Hudson; the most obscene looked like a 5 wobbly towering slinkies
I agree, build em back as they were, just dont allow what happened to happen again
"I agree, build em back as they were, just dont allow what happened to happen again "
Easier said then done. Given the security lapses you read about all the time, I don't have too much confidence that they could prevent it.
Well, then our only choice is to abandon our vast cities and move back into caves.
THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN! OUR SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT!
They all suck. What is so hard about rebuilding two WTC towers?
The fact that they are structurally and environmentally unsound?
but you can at least retain the status quo and not piss off any new people.
I happen to agree with you about the WTC towers; well I think they should rebuild and expand it (maybe they should have three towers instead of two), but they sure as hell need to redesign the damn thing. Oh and keeping the status quo isn't always a good idea. If you like the status quo, go to England. I came here to escape the status quo.
AEM7
formerly of Leeds, England
I haven't lived in NYC since 1972, when the WTC was still young. Like everyone else outside of the city on 9/11, I learned that the buildings had good occupancy rates and served as the home for tens of thousands of jobs. Obviously, those jobs are now somewhere else or completely gone.
Whatever gets built has to have in the forefront of the design the ability to utilize the space to near capacity. Will those jobs come back? Will new ones be created in the future, assuming Wall Street gets back on track? Or is 9/11 going to stand as a defining moment in the decline and fall of the US?
No one really knows if the jobs will come back sooner or later, but they will come back. They may not be financial services jobs, but rather other industries. There are just so many advantages (along with the disadvantages) to locating your offices where many other people have their offices.
Downtown has had its ups and downs for 340 years and there's no reason to expect the pattern to change, barring another act of terrorism that makes people consider New York City unliveable.
First of all in regard to people speaking of similarly designed buildings:
Many buildings use the design of the Twin towers. I don't mean that the coloumns are on the exterior and have slit windows like the twin towers or Aon center do, but the column placement on the buildings. A perfect example is the former 7WTC. It had a ring of columns around the exterior of the building (they were inside the curtain wall though), then another ring of columns around the core of the building. While they looked nothing alike on the outside, they did have similar skeletons. This design is favored for it's provisions of open space, something companies desire.
Second, in regard to building back either something bigger or the same thing:
When a public hearing was held at Pace university, a similar sentiment was echoed. "Build back the towers." Realistically, that's not going to happen. That would be extremely strange, to see the same towers that fell and killed people. I also doubt that the families would want that, and while I don't think that they should be able to control what goes on the site totally, they should have some say.
Now we come to building buildings tall as or taller than the previous WTC with a different design. Well, first say to yorself, would you work there? One reason that they don't want to re-build tall buildings is because no one would work on those top floors.
Another reason is the same reason the 16-acre site can't be left completely open: money. Jersey Mike has suggested that the construction was 'cheap' thanks to identical parts (creating something very disgusting). However, it's not cheap. Why is that? When you build up, the cost is higher (just like the rents). Supplies need to be lifted to higher floors than previously. Workers are going to get more money welding on the 80th floor than the 8th. Elevator space becomes more of a problem (WTC's solution was express elevators. Citicorp has a more interesting one: double deck elevators). In the end, with the economy the way it is I wouldn't expect to see a building taller than the previous towers. On the other hand, if Silverstein gets wins his case against his insurance company, you might see some taller buildings. Personally, I just want to see something in the skyline again. For the record, an 85 story building could be the second tallest building in manhattan if constructed to a standard similar to the WTC (approx 12' per floor, 85 floors, that's 1020ft approx. and that could easily be extended taller than the Chrysler Building, at 1046ft)
The problem that I have with the plans is that they are all the same thing. They're just 11 million square feet of office space randomly arranged. People said they didn't like plan one, but that open plaza at least has some order to it. In many of the other plans, the buildings seem to be placed in any ol' spot that wasn't occupied by a memorial or other open plaza (or above ground transit center). I would have liked to have seen some variation in the plans. Virtually every one calls for one tall tower and then a number of midsized towers much like the existing one Liberty Plaza across the street.
For starters, its the disgust and audasity of the event that have people screaming "Build em Back" and even furthermore, higher.
Some thought they were beautiful, some thought ugly, overall, they were OURS and NO ONE had the right to destroy them like that.
"…Realistically, that's not going to happen. That would be extremely strange, to see the same towers that fell and killed people."
Your right, but its also very creepy looking up and seeing nothing where 2 110 story buildings stood and that for one has to be addressed (throwing out other factors for a second and speaking as someone born after the towers; not knowing how the city looked before without them)
Time will tell
on a side note: When the cocorde had its first accident, a lot of things and thoughts came up, but it didn't stop people from flying it now its back up, just made them more cautious and aware. Im more scared of the Airbus A3XX
http://flug-revue.rotor.com/FRtypen/Fotos/airbus/A3XX-100.jpg
I'm scared of any Airbus. They seem think that their computers are more experianced than human pilots. I guess when that Airbus chose to land in that pine forrest there was a sceret CIA runway there that nobody else could see.
What's wrong with the A-380? It'll be the largest passenger aircraft ever, beating the B-747. I'm sure when the 747 was being developed in the 1960s, people were afraid of it.
It's been over 30 years since the 747 took flight. It's time for a new king.
Not scared of the plane itself, just of the possiblities…especially on that scale. I'll give it about 5 years of service till they work all the bugs out
http://flug-revue.rotor.com/FRtypen/Fotos/airbus/A3XXEmi.jpg
http://flug-revue.rotor.com/FRtypen/Fotos/airbus/A3XX-100.jpg
At first I thought I liked the look of the 6th version, but I didn't realize the buildings were the shortest with that plan. At least one building in the complex has to be tall, so in my book #6 is a looser now.
The NY Post showed the plans behind the skyline, so you can see how far each plan goes.
Plan #6 still has the tallest towers downtown.
The URL for the Post's pictures (and poll) is http://www.nypost.com/poll/nyp2.htm
I think it's LAME that all plans are called memorial something. We should be celebrating life, not wallowing in death and misery.
A society conditioned to believe in "victims" just loves that kind of stuff. If America wasn't sold solid on being victims, then "Dateline NBC" and similar "hour of whiners" shows would have no audience. You're right though, it IS pretty lame. Some day, we'll hopefully get over this phase and learn to take the bull by the cojones once again.
OFF TOPIC
Why the hell did you post that stupid warning? Do you like being noticed? People on this MB are generally literate. They can read a subject line and use their own brains to determine if the threa interests them.
For future notice the WTC is and always will be a Railroad Station, that makes any WTC devolopment discussion ON TOPIC. Just like Penn Station became MSG, Husdon Terminal became the WTC. That above the ground effects that which is below the ground.
So please stop trying to save us from all the evil "off topic" posts. It's not reading one will cause one's head to explode like an overripe cantaloupe.
Well said
heheh
Jersey Mike is good -- sometimes :)
It was not a stupid post. It was just his way of saying that we should all (myself included of course) limit our posts to transit related topics.
E_DOG
It's up to the consent and the discretion of the management (webmaster) if postings get deleted if you read the small paragraph on top of the SubTalk message index. Now a thing like the WTC issue is serious, and according to your logical explanation this thread is on topic. I would think Dave would keep postings about the WTC to a certain degree. I think if we started a 70-posting thread about the structural design and all the little details, I think that would get deleted. But on the other side of the coin, I think postings of the WTC would not.
I agree w/ you, but its Dave's call what is On or Off topic, not a disgruntled SubTalker. If we just don't look at posts we don't like they will loose their power and go away.
I like the bottom two the best.
Elias
#6 was the most popular, with a whopping 91%! Over 2000 people voted.
I have to agree. It's like they started with the worst, and they get progressively better. The first one is the worst!
Sadly, the FIRST one looks like a horrible copy of Albany's "Empire State Plaza" ... yeech.
My Ideas!
In My Opinion:
#4 - because it still has that "see from anywhere" feel like the original Twin Towers had. It also leaves the top floors empty and transparent as a memorial. It would be great if they would be able to color it using lights (ie: Empire State Building)...or use lights like a light house would.
#6 - I like how they designed the footprints here. It reminds me of DC a bit. I just don't like how those two towers look. It looks like something Donald Trump would build. It is almost like...Casino-ish or maybe Hotel-ish.
#3 - I like this one because it uses that transparent memorial at the top of the building. It also uses the footprints wisely, but I don't think they should build on top of it, though. Sacred Ground...not suppose to be touched.
#5 - this one is alright. Kinda reminds me of what was described of the old Hudson Terminal. I like that oblisk type object near West Street, but it looks too much like a larger version of the WFC.
#2 - uses alot for memorial. I also don't like that cylinder shaped building. If you are going to have TV Att. please put it on a taller building.
#1 - uses too much for memorial in my opinion. I doesn't have that NYC feel to it at all. Its not that great.
Nothing beats the original...I'd love to see them back again. My take on another target is like this:
A Plane hit into the Pentagon which is only about 5 stories...should we build only 4 story buildings? No.
Is the Sears Tower being deconstructed because it is too tall? No. As a kid...you're taught to reach for the stars...why give up?!
If I had a choice. I'd like to see. A Concert Hall, 2 Level Mall (1 Underground, 1 In Doors) and a tower that you can see for miles beyond. With this tower(s) they should have empty floors above floor x (x denoting the level the plane impacted)....to commemorate those who lost their lives.
They all suck! By building the buildings smaller we are showing those pieces of s**t that we are scared. As beautiful as the towers were, I feel it would be creepy, and disrespectful to build them as they were. So lets build them bigger, and better. With todays technology it would not be hard to make them safer. Even still the originals were designed to withstand the impact from a Boeing 707. They were hit by two Boeing 767's, which are almost twice the size of the 707, at full throttle, and look how well they did. Why are we not able to touch the ground the original towers were on? It is a great tradgedy what happened, but we are not the only ones who have suffered great losses. If Europe were to make a memorial in every place where thousands of lives were lost in WWII, almost all of Europe would be a memorial. Remember they rebuilt bigger, and better. Why not us?
Even still the originals were designed to withstand the impact from a Boeing 707. They were hit by two Boeing 767's, which are almost twice the size of the 707, at full throttle, and look how well they did.
A 767 is only slightly larger than a 707. Nor are any of the three larger airliners in existence (747, 777, 340) anything close to twice the size of a 707.
And I'd hardly say that the towers did well. The impacts alone, not even counting the fires, cut off all exit stairwells in the north tower and two of the three in the south tower, destroyed the standpipe/sprinkler systems, and put all elevators out of service.
>>And I'd hardly say that the towers did well. <<
Pretty much every engineer interviewed for the recent PBS/Nova special disagrees with you.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Thank you!
The 767 is only slightly larger, but the differences are in the mass:
707 767-200 777-300
Empty Weight 122,500lbs 165,000lbs 353,600lbs
Max Takeoff Weight 257,000lbs 387,000lbs 580,000lbs
Wingspan 130' 156' 200'
Length 153' 159' 242'
-Hank
And I'd hardly say that the towers did well.
Considering the stress the buildings were going through they did well.
They could have toppled over on their sides on top of neighboring buildings, killing countless thousands more.
They could have fell much sooner killing countless thousands more.
The area above the impact zone could have broke off and fell sideways over the surrounding area, killing countless.......more.
As horrific as the scene was, they fell in the best possible way. They imploded, and fell in their own area for the most part. The scene could have been so much worse if they didn't hold up as well as they did. Unfortunately the people above the impacted areas were mostly lost. However the stregth of the buildings allowed THOUSANDS of people to escape, as opposed to an immediate or different type of collapse. As bad as it was, it could have been even worse.
Don't forget. Thats how they were designed to fall. It wasnt just luck that made them collapse like that.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, we should build bigger, something that will replace the WTC as a focal point for Lower Manhatten, but to pick a nit. The 707-120B weighs 122,533lb empty, while the 707-320B weighs 146,400lb empty. The 767-200 with CF6 engines (which IIRC both UA and American used) weighed 163,900lb, and the 767-300 (also with CF6s) weighs 175,000lb. Unfortunately both those figures are a good deal off the double weight that you specify, and yet it is remarkable that they were able to withstand the impact. Also, the planes were not moving at anything near 500mph, I would estimate it was maybe 350 or so. That may not seem like much, but compare that to a train standing still, and a Metroliner moving at 125 mph, add 25 and that is the difference.
As a show on PBS said, the WTC could have withstood the full impact and resulting furniture fire (note: not fuel, the fuel was gone rather quickly), if the bolts on the inside trusses had been about 3/8" bigger, and the bolts on the outside of the trusses had been 1/4" bigger. Also the Program stated that using drywall instead of concrete to protect the emergency stairs was a major mistake. The Drywall was great from a fireproof and economical sense, largely fireproof, cheaper, and lighter than concrete, it made sense to use it in such a building where weights and such are so critical. The problem is that it lacked any stopping power, and on September 11, was litterally blown away, killing all fireproofing the stairs had, and basically dooming all those above the struck floors.
If we could fix these two things, the WTC could be restored, of course I am not in favor of a direct clone of the buildings, but something needs to fill the gaping hole in the lower manhatten skyline, and some 80 story punk out building ain't gonna do it.
Where is our spirit, does it only come out when people are dying or something? Come on, lets go, a 120 story tower is it! Enough pussy footing, moaning about old streets, memorial sites, and the dead,
Thank you for clearing that up for me, seriously. That still is quite a bit heavier though, wouldn't you agree? Enough to make a difference.
Well lets see,
Kinetic energy equals 1/2MV^2
So a 55,589,000 gram 707-120B moving at 350 mph, which is 156.464 meters per second brings 1/2(55,589,000)(156.464)^2 or 6.8043E11 Joules to the building, which converts to: 644,923,174.212 BTUs, 162.627 tons of TNT, or 4,785.02 gallon of kerosene type jet fuel (how apt).
A 74,344,000 gram 767-200, flying at 350 MPH, again 156.464 m/s, also can be converted by 1/2MV^2. So that would be 1/2(74,344,000)(156.464)^2, which equals 9.1E11 Joules, which, in the units above, would be: 862,513,540.751 BTUs, 217.495 tons of TNT, or 6,399.437412 gallon of kerosene type jet fuel.
As you can see, the increase in mass between the 767 and 707 really added to the Kinetic Energy that the plane brought to the building. An increase in velocity could have even greater effects, as a 767 flying at 400 mph (178.816 m/s) could bring a full 1.1885E12 Joules, while the same plane flying at 200 mph (89.408 m/s) would bring only 2.9714E11 Joules, a drastic decrease from the 400 or 350 mph plane.
Of course other things effect the impact of a plane on a building, this really is physics at it's simplest, but things like where the plane hits the building play a major part in determining how the building responds. It would seem that the first pilot thought he might have enough energy to actually knock the building over, he struck high, sacrificing weight above the impact for leverage on the building, since he was basically working a giant lever, fortunately he couldn't budge it, and the lost mass allowed the north tower to survive slightly longer. The other plane aimed lower, sacrificing leverage for weight (and, morbidly, victims) above the strike, perhaps he thought nothing while on approach, or perhaps he actually considered the fact that the other plane did not knock over the towers, but merely incited a fire, and as such aimed lower. What he actually thought we'll never know, and thank whomever you choose to put your faith in for that.
Hope I cleared it up some more.
The whole building would be a memorial, one visible from miles around. If you still need a memorial park, build the building with a spaceweb type frame (I think that's the name, I know it was used on the Bank of China Tower), and use shafts to bring natural light into a grassy main area, The building need not even touch the sites, but rather would soar above them. With todays techiniques and such, it should be possbible to go even taller, and that would be the greatest victory we could ever hope to achieve against a foe such as the one we face now, and as such, it would be a fitting memorial to those who perished on september 11.
[Sorry about the split post, i accidentally hit the post button.]
Hopefully the NIMBY's that we all love to hate can finally prove useful for once and block any of these bullshit provject from getting started. I'd rather see an empty pit than a lame ass compromise.
All of these are unacceptable.If any of these are made i will be really disgusted. whats so hard. you get contractors and rebuild the same way they were. but noooooooooo people want change. it makes me sick
I say build them exactly the way they were: IN BAGHDAD!!! After we beat the crap outta them and put Saddam 6 ft under one of the towers. Then make it the U.S. Embassy!!!!
nice i like that idea
First let's rebuild them where they are. No changes; that way those Arab bastards that destroyed them will know just what kind of guts and ingenuity Americans have. Later on, somewhere in the vicinity of those Al-Queda (sic) bums, we build a large monument to the WTC and put it under armed guard and annex that small piece of territory for ourselves and if anyone gets in the way send them to hell on a one way trip. That where most of those mid-east rats are going anyway. Help them get there quicker.
Are all arabs bastards? I don't hink so. Watch what you write. John walker as a white bastard right?
Those are some ugly designs. (I mean all of them) What happened to the television networks which sent their frequencies over the antenna on 1 WTC? They all moved to the Empire State Building?
I liked the WTC complex a lot. Two, black, 9-story ell-shaped buildings, with 7 WTC, the two 110-story towers, and 3,4,5 WTC. I remember riding PATH to WTC and walking out of the ell-shaped building and beholding the complex. It was truly a sight to behold.
How did 3,4, and 5 WTC look like? Was it the ell-shaped buildings?
Incredible how 35 years later, we can't think of even something close to what Yamasaki planned. (Did he design it or another producer?)
Here is a letter that I received from the Straphangers Network (http://www.straphangers.org):
From: Straphangers Network <network@straphangers.org>
Date: 15 Jul 2002 15:55:21 -0400
Subject: Listening to the City
Dear rider-
Want to have your opinion count in the post-9/11 rebuilding effort? The Straphangers Campaign would like to encourage you to join thousands of others this Saturday, July 20th at the Javits Center for "Listening to the City" - a historic town hall meeting to discuss rebuilding the World Trade Center site, Lower Manhattan and the region in the wake of 9/11. There will be a lot of discussion around transportation and your interest in the topic will be a valuable contribution.
We hope you will take time out to attend. You must pre-register by calling 800-862-3154 or visiting http://www.listeningtothecity.org
Breakfast and lunch will be provided for free. Free day care on-site and translation services will be available too. Participation is free but space is limited.
We hope to see you there!
Straphangers Campaign
PS: People who can?t participate on July 20th for religious or other compelling reasons can register on a first-come/first-served basis for a smaller event on July 22nd. You can call 212.404.3031 for more info.
==============================
- Lyle Goldman
So, what do you guys think? Is anyone here planning on going to this meeting?
- Lyle Goldman
I am.
Free food
So am I. It's a bit of an early start though. And a subway to Javits would be nice.
I will be visting the great state of Ohio this weekend and plan to look in on the Ohio Railway Museum in Worthington on Sunday. I understand that this is an operating trolley museum. Are there any posters on this board who might be in the neighborhood that day?
Best Wishes,Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, just don't ask anyone about Dayton Area Rapid Transport.
Juice: I am familiar with the Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority which operates diesel buses and trackless trolleys in Dayton. What is Dayton Area Rapid Transit?
Larry,RedbirdR33
DART was a hoax I was suckered into. It was a joke...a SOTA subway system to replace diesel and caternary busses. The site even went into details on how the Huber Heights station was blown up before construction by 'No More Trains TM.' I know the roads...78/76/70...drove em to the HARA convention center for nearly twenty one years straight because driving 600/700 miles was better than flying and renting a car. I'm a sucker for good ideas...the Mongolian Subway was another. There is no WKRP....only WKRC....in Cincinatti. Dayton Hamvention would bring tens of thousands from all over the world but a decade of bad weather (tornado season) forced a change to the second week of May. Dayton, armpit of the world....life sucks when the sidewalks are rolled in by 6PM. We used to have big parties Friday night at a hotel on main street across from 'hooker bars.' All gone, we remember Mendelsohns Electronics like Cortland Street. Miss building pyramids of empty Coors cans...it was another generation, like tubes versus transistors. What we 'old timers' have from Dayton HamVention is good memories of good times of things we could buy parts for and assemble. All gone, all past history. You know me Larry, the guy on 'The Last Redbird Excursion' with the tools and the radios in uniform representing my crew and yard. CI Peter
Actually, Larry, it's the Miami Valley Rail Authority, which may at one time have been known as the Dayton Area Rapid Transit - I haven't read enough of the history to know. But anyway, they do have a real nice website :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's a fako....no subway plans for Dayton. They don't even have plans to build auxilliary rails to fly Wright Brothers kites or biplanes. Bin Loden might have done Ohio a favor. CI Peter
I'm well aware of that... but wanted to point the website out to Larry anyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: I appreciate hearing about this web-site. It certainly is a good hoax. Interestingly nearby Cincinati actually did start construction of a major heavy rail rapid system and there are several sections that where completed and abandoned. Dayton does have a number of electric trolley buses though which makes it an interesting vist.
Thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
Another sucker.Anon e mouse has a good and technical heart like me.
Great Site!!!!
If you're visiting Worthington, be aware that it is BARELY an operating museum. I think they have one operating car, and it only runs for about four hours on Sunday afternoons (that's the only time the Museum's open).
Worthington is an excellent place to visit if you would like to have a better opinion of... just about any other museum. The Museum's official name is the Ohio Railway Museum (they also have some historic steam-road stuff), and it was one of the earliest and most successful electric museums. Back in the 1960's, they were restoring carbodies and even building bridges when many museums didn't even have a carbarn. However, in the 1970's their membership split completely, and most of the people who worked on the equipment left. During the late 1970's, 1980's and 1990's the (extremely historic) collection essentially rotted away. By now, there are probably four cars out of their collection of 15-20 that could even conceivably be restored to operating condition. Most are junk, and if they're lucky they're under tarps. ORM is a failed museum, and a lesson to the rest of the preservation community of what not to do.
Frank Hicks
Frank: Thanks for the insight. I was aware of there limited operating hours. I'll let you know what I see.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If you are going to be in Ohio, there are much better places to spend your time than a junkyard in Columbus.
There is the Nickel Plate Museum in Bellevue, OH (Ohio Rt.4 by Sandusky) which is on an active NS mainline (the old NKP) and the site of a large intermodal yard. There are many diamonds around the place where excellent photo opportunities could be had. Just some that I can think of off the top of my head: Marion AC Tower, Fostoria C&O/B&O diamond, Deshler diamond, big PRR roundhouse in Crestline...
There are a few other RR museums out that neck of the wooods, I just don't remember right now...
AEM7
AEM 7: Thanks for the interesting comments. Your the second sub-talker who didn't have too many good words to say about the museum. I will be staying nearby so I will look in on the collection. I also plan to vist a tourist rail operation in Lebanon.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
We have discussed many different kinds of subway cars on this board but I noticed that some types never seem to come up for comment. The IRT R-21's and R-22's are rarely mentioned. There were 250 of the former and 450 of the latter. They arrived on the IRT in the middle to late 50s and completed the replacement of the High-V fleet begun by the R-17's. They were no beauty queens to be sure. They were the first IRT cars to sport that dull olive drab paint. The train door windows had a single drop sash which was great for railfanning on hot days before AC. The original seating was very comfortable red vinyl form but this was replaced by those ugly two-piece fibreglass seats due to vandalism. They never quite caught the imagination and although 30 or so remain in work service I don't think any will turn up in museums.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I agree. I loved riding on the R22 cars. I never had the honor of riding the R21 fleet. Anytime I want to see the R22's in revenue service, thats why I have the movie "The Taking of Pelham 123". When
the Transit Museum reopens, I'll mention it to them. Maybe they felt
the R17 looked the same and the public would not notice the difference. Only fans like us can tell the difference. I also think a real R10 should be in the museum as well. You can tell the bootleggedness with car 1575.
R21 and R22 ran in mixed company most of their careers. You probably rode an R21 and never knew it - the way to tell them apart was by the handholds - the R21 had the same kind as the R17 (AND the R10 and R16) had - curved inward. The R22s were triangular at the end of a stem.
I believe the R21 outlasted the R22 - there were some running on the #5 line as late as 1988.
wayne
Also the motormans door opened like the R-62's, the opposite way.
The last R21 was run on 11/30/87, IIRC. The R17's lasted into 1988. Some R22's never made it to the 30 year mark.
Funny thing is, R21 and 22 were very rare on the 6, if they ran there at all. The drop-down sash window came in very handy in the movie for Robert Shaw to lower it and fire his machine gun through. If the hijacked car was an R26 or up, it would've been one solid pane of glass. Firing a gun through that could've sprayed glass onto the hijackers. We wouldn't want THAT, would we?
The 21s and 22s were mainstays on the West Side, especially the 1. One R22 gained notoriety for being the car Bernhard Goetz was riding in on the 2. I think it was in the 76 or 7700-series. In December '84, the Redbirds hadn't yet been overhauled, and the only new cars were on the 4.
By the time of Goetz's trial, in June '87, the car where it all happened had been retired and converted into a work train. I'm not sure if any 21s or 22s were still in service. The last time I saw a white car covered with graffiti was on the 6 in November '87. It would probably become an overhauled Redbird shortly.
Yep, by the mid-70s, when Pelham 123 was made, the only single units on the 6 were the last 100 R-17s (6800-6899). And of course the round windows in the storm doors of the R-17 were impossible to open, so that is probably why the R-22s were used in the film. At the time I was annoyed at the lack of realism, but later on I realized why they had to do that.
For the last several years of service, the R22s did indeed run on the "6" on a regular basis. They were officially assigned to the Pelham Yard and chances are that they were mixed in 80% of the train consists on the "6". The numbers were 7450-7499.
The Pelham novel specifically referred to a single unit car being cut from the rest of train. There may have been mention of an opening storm door window as well, so the choice of using an R-22 was a wise one.
Never say never - Anything is possible. Even an R-22 might turn up somewhere!
-Stef
Perhaps in Maine.
Perhaps. I'll leave that for someone else to comment on.
-Stef
The train in Maine runs mainly on the plain ... (sorry, couldn't help myself)
The last ten R-22's delivered: #7515 to #7524. They were to be a prototype for future TA subway cars. They had pink, hard fiberglass seats -- the first cars to have them; speckled green interior paint scheme (later used on the rebuilt B-types); and the storm door was a one-piece, small, drop-down window, never used on any other car. Only the hard seats were incorporated on later cars - R-26's and up.
Harry P.
Yep, I remember them. And the speckled paint and "salmon" colored seats as well. Rode them often years and years ago. Thanks for the memory tease! :)
One or two of those cars remains as a rider car on the Misc roster. I recall riding one of them in Pelham where they were retired. The windows did not drop down, the window was covered over with one piece of Tuffak. Those cars also had R29 side door panels with sandwich glazing.
Spain sounds better.:)
i remember my visits to nyc with the r-21-22 series LOUD PA SYSTEMS !!
thats what i dont understand bout' some redbirds ....???...!!
& that split front window was the bomb !! wooooooooooooo...........
Man the split railfan window was and the experence that no r-142 will
never ever be !! & the electric motors were strong and fast !!!
sorry 2 see them gone ......
During my early days (70s) I'd look for R21s and R22s as lead motors on lines like the #2, #3 and #5 that had numerous sharp curves. I'd go up to the head car and drop the sash window and let the wheel noise pour in.
wayne
I know, it's music to my ears.
my man !!
wasnt dat fun ??...............yea !!
no r-142 fan has a clue !!!
Yes it was, esp. between 138th Street and Mott Avenue on the #5, and on the #2/#3 betw. Chambers and Park, and south of Clark Street. Lotsa ouch, the R21 and R22 were among the noisiest subway cars ever, right up there with the R27/R30, which I ranked as the absolute noisiest.
wayne
man you should have rode em on the # 1 back in 1977 !!!
slaming into the railroad ties hard and loud and booking fast !!!
wooooooooooo
I hate the R-42's so much, because they are replacing my Redbirds.
r42 is on the J.............lol ....!!
I dont mind em at all !! nice railfan-window-view!!
Sorry, i reposted the message.
As much as I love my Red Birds, I think the 142s are a worthy successor. (And I hope that a good working set of Red Birds is kept for the Transit Museum).
The R-62s have no class at all. Although they have good air-conditioning.
I hate the R-142's so much, because they are replacing my Redbirds.
& with NO railfan window .....like the r21-22 ....for example ...
the 21/22s had railfan windows!
thats what i said the r-142 does not !!
Oh yes, I WILL NOT ride R-142's (or for that matter R-62A's). I hate them with a passion. Something about them I just can't stand. They have almost a demonic appearance from the front, and on the inside, there's a hospital-like sterility to them. Oh no, I despise them.
>>>...I WILL NOT ride R-142's (or for that matter R-62A's).<<<
Then what, pray tell, do you do when you're on a line where you have no choice?
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, but I do. I can just take the "E" straight through. I only ride the "7" for recreational purposes. Mark my words, I WILL NOT ride it once the redbirds are all gone.
Seems a little extreme to me but, to each his own.
Peace,
ANDEE
You have to understand, I'm a purist. This is getting a little off topic, but I love vintage Volkswagens. I wouldn't step foot inside a New Beetle. It's just a mere shadow of it's former self. For crying out loud, the engine isn't even in the back!
I like vintage cars railcars and bikes myself. I am restoring a 68 Plymouth Fury at home, sold a '70 Camaro and do volunteer work at TMNY doing my share to restore instead of deliberate. I can't see how you will be able to avoid riding new cars, let alone sounding silly for claiming to avoid them. Mark my words, you will never avoid the new cars. If you choose to take a cab inbstead of the 7 train, you will be riding in a Crown Victoria, not a Checker, and although your can of Pepsi may not be made of an R36, it probably was a Low-V in a former smelting pot. Thanks to the TLC, I will likely not be able to ride in a Taxi with a stool in the back. I miss them. But I feel safer in a vehicle used for everyday stop and go that isn't breaking though its frame. Grumman Buses anyone?
'Grounded Shoe Beam' is a really classic inside handle...too bad R142s are coming up with this chronic problem. CI Peter
I tried 4 inch flats, Enginebrake and my new handle but it doesn't meet up to modern standards. Perhaps the Transit Professional who lost his P-Wire or Air Bag Rupture might have to do. I recall a lad posing under B/P Rupture so thats copyrighted. I actually had dropped a shoe beam in my newbie days involving a deadbird on the double-C. The "Motorman Instructor" from Euclid pulled the alarm box for me passing the window Northbound. Kind of an unforgotten salute for an R27 passing itself off for an electric arc welder. On the subject of Deadbirds, they have 8998/9 in for stripping tonight. Those too hard working CIs got all of the doors and windows out before the batteries had a chance to discharge. The interior lights and tail lights were on with the upper body stripped. Pretty good, lets sink some more Pete. Keep 'em coming.
4 inch flats are cool and all, but nothing beats a "split wheel" ... that was one of my own little crises once upon a time. They had to pump up my tail car and put a set of cauley wheels under it so it could limp back home. Not as dramatic as your own rolling fourthajuly works, but every bit as entertaining. Screwed up the railroad for HOURS. Gave me a sense of accomplishment it did, it did. :)
I was working work trains around '93 or '94 when they yanked those dollies as I referred them as after an incident on the LEX IRT where signal cables, third rail feeter wire and screwed up the mainline for hours. As the SUpt who was charged with operating the train learned, cauley wheels weren't meant for tunnels, although I heard they were used throughout for years.
Mine broke at 34 St northbound on the D. It went back south the way it came through quite a bit of tunnel all they way back to CIY on those little scooter wheels. I guess it's a matter of how the rescue power handles it and how fast they want to roll it. Sure hope the operator on the Lex didn't wrap it to unscrew the railroad. :)
Why do you people even bother stripping them? It's not like you'll be able to use parts for subsequent series cars anyway. Do you sell them for scrap?
Everything that can float must be removed from the car. Plus, the cars in question must be cleaned - grease and other contaminants must be removed before the cars enter water. As for parts, they often get discarded. Roll signs, doors, etc. have been known for hitting the dumpsters. The cars' trucks are shipped on a separate barge to Mr. GSB's favorite place - Naporano.
For any surviving Redbirds that continue to run, a supply of parts would be kept for them.
-Stef
Huh? Where is this dumpster full of Redbird rollsigns and other such parts? I would a roll sign. Can I have one, please?
Go to the shop and ask them. Subway parts may also be advertised on www.mta.info under the material division.
-Stef
At least my 1968 GMC Fishbowl isn't going anywhere anytime soon....
You don't like anything new, do you? At least you can take the E, like you said. Tell the average 6 line commuter why he should take rusty Redbirds with erratic heat and A/C over reliable Kawasaki R142A's and he'll just laugh!
And for those that like it, go forward....
actually a lot of 6 train riders hate the 142as because of their seats
They could certainly have chosen another color for the R142/142A interior than the antiseptic grey they have used. It's terrible.
wayne
I like it. It makes the cars much brighter. If the walls were of a dark color the cars would seem darker inside. I like my subway cars to "light up my world." I also like them to have huge railfan windows, but that is a whole other thread.
Long hot day means a place to rest for a few minutes. R142s are like Times Square....bright and noisy....you have to disconnect DC controls to find a little peace....then you discover the 'plastic smell'or the stench of other CIs that shed their safety shoes. Redbirds are more 'homey.' CI Peter
Much like the yuk interiors on R16-30 . The same grey with blue doors looked nice on Low-v etc but unfortunately the ugly Patterson green took its place. Under incandescent light the grey looked nice, under fluorescent...eeech.The nicest interiors of tht period for the SMEE was the last 10 R22 that had the speckled green...it came up beautifully.So why does the R142 have to have the decor of the operating room? Anyone remember rail author Lucius Beebe? That was his expression.RIP
At least they didn't use pistachio green. Eeewwwwwwww!!!
Double EWWWWWWWWW!!!
wayne
What do you have against the R142 class cars? I love the inside because its bright cheery and clean. The best part about them is that they are getting rid of those bloody redbirds. Why do you want to save them since they have horrible A\C , malfunctioning heaters and the shaky and dirty interiors. Yes i know what's coming (Throw the tomatoes) i'm young and stupid and have no clue about subway history. Transit workers hate them ( on the 6 anyways) and i understand why. Noone bitches about the complete lack of a railfan window on the R62 class cars, but when the R142 class arrives and you NOW CAN see out the front of the train hell breaks loose... what is this??? Does everyone on this board feel NO sympathy for the T\O or C\r who is stuck in a broom closet for 8 hours a day??? Transverse cabs are the future and I support them because Train Operators and Conductors deserve better.
I happen to gripe about losing the railfan window on the R62 and R62A
cars. Transverse cabs means that the conductor will not be able to greet passengers between stations. You need to remember that the conductor's controls are inside the train, not outside between the cars like on the R10,R11,R12 and R14 cars. As another note, notice how
the new controls on the R142 and R142A are combined to 1 Slide control. Subway trains that still have the "dead man's feature" are ten times safer with that separate brake handle. If a Train Operator
drops dead while driving an R142/142A, they will most likely fall forward and push the accelerator forward, causing the train to move faster. To stop this runaway train, pray for a red signal or that the train is close to "timed territory".
On a Redbird or all other R types(including R44 and R46, excluding R143 cars), the Train Operator passes out, the "dead man's feature"
control moves up, the train screeches to a halt. Safest fail-safe system.
Pass it on..
What statistics do you have that state a deadman with a pilot valve is 10 times safer than one without? I haven't seen studies available on this subject. We had a motorman who did have a heart attack at 179 Street in the 80s resulting in such a collision and not many if any since. If a crew member fell forward atop the deamman, his body weight would serve to over ride its purpose so how is the redbird controller proven safer? I'd personally like to see the Pulse Sensory Alerter setup found in NJT engines, where a function must be performed in the cab, IE horn, controller movement, brake handle movement or acknowledge button depressed for every minute or so. Remember NOTHING is FAIL-SAFE.
Hey: good working enviroments produce best results....no complaint from me about R142 transverse cabs. You can even plug your FM radio in to listen to Howard Stern if you know where BUT the R142 appears designed to be the most uncomfortable trainset I ever experienced. Lighting blinds you, seats are so unconforming that you 'hurt' and remain awake, PA blairs your hearing, can't even sleep on gel coat seats cuz braking makes you slide off. Good for T/Os and C/Rs, bad for riders. Two bucks a bargain...I'll now charge three bucks for Redbirds I did carbody in...without wiping off the excess grease on door operators and you can enjoy hand crafted etched glass windows at no extra cost. CI Peter
I know where! I know where! I always said that one day Ill bring a small radio and have a party! Club 142.
"Noone bitches about the complete lack of a railfan window on the R62 class cars, but when the R142 class arrives and you NOW CAN see out the front of the train hell breaks loose... what is this???"
Um, the R62 singles HAVE railfan windows, and all of them had them when they were delivered I believe. Plus the ones with full-width cabs have a little window. The R142 just has a blurry black window. I DO like the R62 and R142, but I'd RATHER ride a redbird ANYDAY so that I can look out the railfan window.
yea dats' my point !!
Well i was referring to the majority of the R62's which have a big metal door and a tiny rectangle of glass.....
And i would hardly call the tiny rectangle of glass a railfan window. The R142 railfan window is perfectly clear if you look at it at the right angle ( straight on)
You must need new glasses. Something is visible out the front window straight on, but it's severely blurry. It may be good enough if you want to have a general idea of what's out there on an elevated structure, but it's not good enough if you want to closely watch the trackside details as the train moves underground.
Perhaps we should recommend to the MTA that the entire R142 railfan window is tinted instead of making it slightly blurry....
One problem though! A single from Livonia (#1931) had its compartment open to full width, so there sometimes is no guarantee that a railfan window would exist on an R62A single.
I hate the R-142's because they are so foreign to me. They are too much of a radical change from the redbirds. I will miss the grabhandles, the paper signs, and most importantly the railfan windows. As another SubTalker put it, the lighting is like that of an operating room, and like I say, with the black trim in the front, they have a demonic look. No, I don't like them at all, but I'm from the old school. I know I must say farewell to the beloved redbirds on the "7", but it is with the deepest lament I do this.
Do you hate the R68\a's?
Can't really comment on that one, since I'm never on a line that uses those type of cars. But if they're anything like the R-62A's (and judging from photos they sure seem to be) my answer would have to be "yes"
But wait- the R142 is shaped like the redbird and has red accents.
But the R62 looks nothing like a redbird, so i could undersatnd your hatred of them...
No way, the redbird has much nicer lines. To me, the R-142 (and R-62A) are in every way different from the R-33's and 36's. The only thing I respect about the R-62A is its utilization of paper signs. The bright orange and yellow seats in those cars remind me of being in a bowling alley. I know there are people out there who love the R-142, and that's fine. I respect their opinions. I just like the Redbirds much better. They could be overhauled and put back in service for another 20 years. To me, sending them seaworthy is the dumbest thing they could do. But I've never known the MTA to make much sense, so why should now be any different?
When I started TA, I did New Tech troubles and inspections...easy work. Then I was given Redbird work: nasty, dirty and difficult without experience. I've learned those trainsets 98%...learn them and you can fix almost anything that comes along. Lazy CIs think I'm nutz...the CTAs call me by a term of endearment...'Redbird.' You have to accept the passage of time...to allow what has been done to be entered 'into the books of history' and let quiet demise pass. The carbon steel bodied Redbird trainsets have paid for themselves a dozen times over...they are easy to fix...I just repaired several 'hot cars' by sealing refrigerant leaks...and rebuilt an air compressor head Friday afternoon. Never knew I could do this work, never knew I could apply myself so well to a task but I know I have to let go. Save the pictures and remember...TA has learned an important lesson in trying to accelerate technology without improvements in trackage or the rest of the system. The Redbirds will come back...new and better...in a new form...running everyday keeping our city alive...just maybe not in my lifetime. CI Peter
"The Redbirds will come back...new and better...in a new form...running everyday keeping our city alive...just maybe not in my lifetime...."
You must forgive me, but here I'm a little lost. Oh sure, they will save a few for posterity (i.e. fan trips) but how else can they come back? You certainly don't mean they'll come back in the form of R142's - there is not even a hint of resemblance there. I know the redbirds era is coming to a close, destined for the pages of history, just as the Low-V's and GMC Fishbowls. I know what lies ahead, still I can't help feeling a little baleful...
TA surely has learned a lesson in SOAC...just too complicated. The Ford Model T provided reliable transportation for everybody. The 'Redbird Series' provided reliable transportation in mass transit...the postwar 'M1 Garand' of the subways. There must become a point where SOAC and common mechanical practice will reach a balance to MAKE trains go. Or buy a scooter. CI Peter
the only r-62 i liked was the ones i rode with a motorman with ......
......inside his cab !!! .........yep !!
I bet you live nowhere near a line that has (or had) Redbirds. If you HAD NO CHOICE but to ride them on a regular basis like I had to for many years, you'd change your mind about the Redbirds pretty quickly.
My man, i grewup riding all of the R- type cars.
Those windows were like the ones on the R16's.
The R16 had round front windows, like the R11, R15 and R17; the R21 and R22s were unique in that they had the drop down panel.
wayne
Sorry, ignore my previous post, I WAS thinking of the round ones. II forgot about the drop down ones.......
Well, not entirely unique:
(I took that picture on July 12, 2001; according to this page, the car -- 7773 -- was sunk six months later.)
Didn't the BMT Standards have drop down railfan windows?
Yes, if they worked!
D-Types, too.
--Mark
The R-21/22s worked the IRT West Side Line for years and they were some of the most reliable cars at the time. Though they weren't the prettiest looking cars, many of them sported the MTA paint scheme starting in the early 1970s before the graffiti ruled over any paint scheme.
#3 West End Jeff
IIRC, the R21s also had R10 style momentary light switches, located outside the storm door under the signs, minus the buzzer and indication bulbs. R22s had interior light momentary buttons. I recall the R22s having squared corners for the storm door and side window sashes, while R21s had rounded corners for many windows, accomplished by an inserted piece of stainless trim. R27s and R30s had mixed side windows. This R17 had a door of an R33 until Naporano uninstalled it.
I knew that door didn't look right. What was with the older doors? They only had like a minimal amount of insulation? Anyway, you could tell from a newer, rubberized door. The R16's had that type also.
isnt this a R17?
My point was if they didn't have a part, they made something else fit, like 7773's storm doors, or the handful of redbirds that had vented R12 cab doors. I recall 7271 on the Broadway local with an R15 side door panel, and an 8500 R30 with the storm door from a pre GOH R42. The door with the extra rubber was pre GOH R26-33 I recall. The mounting hole patterns were the same for most of the cars.
Yep ... that was the TA I remember - a ball pein hammer and a dream. Motto of the car inspectors was "stand aside, sonny. We'll *MAKE* it fit." :)
Man, did I hate those cars. Then again, I rode them in 85-87, when they were doomed to the scrap heap and in AWFUL condition.
There were a couple in work service yellow in really good condition, one even having the old compressor, at 207th last year. They had a 3 added before the original #'s. (37371 was one of them) They may have been replaced with redbirds, but I hope they hold on to them and someone grabs them. A whole bunch of 17's were saved, but none of the 21/22's. That is why it is the "forgotten car". A bunch of them were butchered up for the continuous rail train and other miscellaneous equipment.
Has anyone been seeing any yellow on the barges with the redbirds?
Last barge to SC from 207th had fifty Redbird carcasses. Sucker was even on TV news. No 'yellow stipers' seen. CI Peter
7366 and 7420 were scrapped the old fashioned way a few months ago with a 9306 impostor.
7307, 7371, 7460 - Their status is unknown. Someone may have grabbed one or all of them. I won't say anymore because I don't know all of the facts. Someone who can shed some light on the whereabouts of these cars can chime in.
-Stef
I wonder why the R21-R22s didnt last longer. There just a little bit older then the R26s. I think they couldve GOH them and given them AC and all. And There wouldve been more IRT trains becuase of it. Was there any technical reason why they werent kept like the R17s?
Deferred maintenance took its toll. When the GOH program began, it was decided not to rebuild any of the single unit cars except for the WF R-33s. Lack of space for A/C probably had a lot to do with it.
The R-16s suffered more from deferred maintenance than any other car class.
Apparently current plans call for R-62A's to be assigned to the Flushing Line. This is the first time that I know of that the bulk of the Flushing Line car fleet will be second hand equiptment.
The Flushing Line has always been something of a showcase for new equiptment both for the IRT and the BMT.
The Steinway Motors were built specifically for operation on both the Astoria and Flushing Lines. There were three groups of standard Steinways built; the origial "Boilers" of 1915, the Pullman cars of 1916 and the ACF cars of 1925. There also were the highly destinctive "World's Fair-Steinway" Motors of 1938. The last cars built for the Interborough Rapid Transit Company.
The first postwar cars built for the IRT division were the R-12's,R-14's and R-15's. They were assigned to the Flushing Line and in there first year of operation the R-12's saw service on the Astoria Line as well. The R-12's and 14's had a very distinctive roof style while the R-15's were the first cars to have the low arch or "ogee" roof. The R-15's also sported those for circular windows on the side doors. A feature shared only with the R-11's.
The 1964-65 World's Fair saw the introduction of the R-33 and R-36 "Bluebirds" with blue and white exteriors and picture window. Now called Redbirds these cars have provided virtually all Flushing Line service since for the past 38 years.
The 1938-39 World's Fair saw the intoduction of the converted BU's which became known as the Q-Types. When rebuilt these cars had a bright orange and blue paint scheme.
Now its true that the Flushing Line did see service by both IRT and BMT Gate cars as well as soem Steinway conversions and even a few Low-V were sent over before the Flushing Line was separated from the rest of the IRT. I wonder how the riders will like these cramped Silver Bullets.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R62A cars are very reliable equipment. As a note, the 6 train did
get second hand R36 cars from the Flushing line. As a frequent resident of the 6 train, I guess we are returning a favor the 7 line
did for us. Those R36 cars did a lot of good for the Lex Local. These
R36 cars had the honor of being sent to the reef in Delaware. They
are still doing their job, although its for tuna commuters. LOL
Are you sure about that? I thought the 6 had R-36ML's (with narrow windows), not R-36WF's (with wide picture windows). Only the R-36WF's came from Flushing.
Dave: The Flushing had the "Bluebirds": 40 R-33 single units and 390 R-36 married pairs. All had picture windows.
The mainline had the "Redbirds": 236 R-29, 500 R-33 and 34 R-36. All had standard drop-sash windows.
In latter years a few R-36WF migrated over to the mainline at first on the 4 and later on the six. I frequently remember them running on the six usually mixed with the R-36 ML.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, the R-36WF cars made it over to the No. 1 train on the IRT first, as seen in this 1972 photo on Dave's site:
I remember when I first saw them on the 1, I thought the tail tracks at the west end of the Times Square station on the Flushing Line must somehow connect with the IRT local tracks on Seventh Ave. for them to have gotten there, the same way that Track 1 on the shuttle at Grand Central connects up with the IRT local track on Park Ave. Live and learn...
Probably grateful that they don't *LEAK* ... :)
Interesting observation, Larry. But I like the R62s, so I don't feel to bad on the Flushing Line's behalf. :)
One nitpick, the roofs on R10 and R12, not the R15 and later, are what are described as "ogee." An ogee describes the kind of double curve on each side of the roof.
Paul: So its the other way around. The R-10,12 and 14 had the ogee roof while the 15's had the turtleback or low-arch. Thanks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So i'm on my regular ride home from my summer job....B/D/F/V to 34th then W to 50th in Brookyn, and when I step on the W I realize there's something wrong. It was a "hippo" (i think - the one with the full-across cabs and orange/yellow seats that stick into the aisle in place) and the front driver's cab in the first car had the door completely open! So I gave up my seat within 2 stops and stood in the doorway watching the track and signals and everything through all 3 big windows - it was awesome, and not only did the T/O let me stand there but he even answered my questions when i asked.
So it was very cool.
-West End Scott
Cool! We need more like him.
Watch the poor sap get written up for having the door open in the first place.
yeah, that's why i didnt mention the time or the train car number or anything.... good deeds are always punished :)
Be grateful for the gift and we're thankful you didn't. Having been in a cab with sheet for airflow myself, there were many times I was in violation of the three fingers rule myself just to BREATHE. When I was a kid, I was blessed by a number of motormen and conductors that would let me watch the "show and tell" and when I got there myself, I was always happy to do the same when things were quiet and the kids were well behaved. But ratting out good people by fingering them after being nice isn't a good thing at all. Thanks for the wisdom of knowing the difference.
I have heard from a TSS that operating a 62/a with the cab door open gets you a 3 day vacation.
Paid or unpaid?
- Lyle Goldman
Vacations like that are always unpaid.
Yep ... they'd scorch your butt in the 70's too for that. No clamp, keep it shut was the golden rule. But back in MY day, supervision wasn't QUITE as insane as they seem to be today. I guess they were afraid of geese falling into the cab and pushing the wrench past full service. Heh.
Purina geese chow ... chow chow chow! :)
Same for Conductors on a R62A single cab. I was warned about my cab door being open.
Is there an official rule against that?
- Lyle Goldman
Several although I'm not certain of today's specific phrasing. A motorman's cab is SUPPOSED to be closed. Quarter-cabs, you're allowed "three fingers" (there was a clamp that you could mount that would provide the required clearance) or door closed. I guess they were afraid of hijackings. Heh. But yeah, there's always been rules to keep it closed.
Conductors have it even stranger. On a transverse, they're supposed to be imprisoned inside and NEVER come out whereas on the older quarter cabs, they had to be OUTSIDE in plain view of the geese at all times, door left open on your side, closed on offside. Nutso ...
Kevin,
You mention the conductors, in sight of the riders with quater cabs.
You were a Bronxite, but when I was a youngone, the C/R on the E/F
QB Express walked the train between Q.P. & Roosevelt and Roosevelt &
Continental. The rear cars between express stops then the front
cars between the next two express stations. This was off hours of
course and the sets were the arnines. No TA Cops those years, in
uniform at least. Many undercover to enforce the no smoking rules.
And gum was available for a penny on the pillar.
;-) Sparky
Probably checking the sidesigns. When I was a conductor, I'd walk them between Tremont and 145 and 125 to 59th, more out of sheer boredom than anything "real." :)
I vote for Pappy.
Who's Pappy, and why do you vote for him?
- Lyle Goldman
You're pappy.
Happy pappy?
Why do some T/Os wear those big noise reducing earphones and others don't? Is it required?
The earmuff type are issued. If you like your ears to sweat wear them, I prefer the foam earplugs. All T/Os and C/Rs are given hearing tests every year.
I like the little yellow foam earplugs. (E-A-R Classic brand) They work better than those clunky muffs.
Once upon a time, a railroad conductor was told he could not wear those things, because he had to be able to hear his train, and the wistle and buzzer signals.
Later, his hearing went bad, and the railroad, and workman's comp would not pay for his care, because he didn't use ear protection.
Elias
Railroaders are covered by the Federal Employers' Liability Act, Not state comp. which is a SCAM! FELA is a MUCH BETTER SYSTEM.
Can they hear the radio and the train whistles with their ears covered like that?
- Lyle Goldman
the TO that will invite me to shoo9t inside his cab on the 1-9 line
yes & we e mail each other often!!
subwaysurf , mark f.get jelous !!
the TO that will invite me to shoot inside his cab on the 1-9 line
yes & we e mail each other often!!
subwaysurf , mark f.get jelous !!
Been there, done that ... on a Lo-V!
--Mark
can i9 get a ride there too ??.....with my video that is ...???
can i get a ride there too ??.....with my video that is ...???
How can you have THREE big windows when one of them has to be used for the big, lighted rollsign in the front?
I would've wanted to go through what you went through. One motorman on the #1 at 242 St. was very mean and slammed his door when it was ready to go. Further yet, he put his gigantic bag hooked onto the door which prevented me from seeing through the little window on the R62A's.
Yeesh!
In Sao Paulo, one of the new subway lines that will open this September (one month after I'll be there, arrrrgh!!!) will have a station that is on a cable stay bridge:
This is going to be really cool when it opens. Are there any other stations in the world that are like this?
Here is another photo:
And for the curious, this is the new Alstom rolling stock that is ordered for the new line:
Gee, I would say that it looks like such an odd place for a station, and then I keep thinking "Smith/9th Street"!
The old Queensboro Bridge trolley had a station on the bridge over Welfare Island ....
--Mark
They're here.
Someone left the Rider Car at Linden Yard and sandwhiched a flatcar between the leading diesel locomotives.
Also.... 6436-40 and 6861-65 appear to be on the way to the shop. Safety chains appeared to be removed from the cars.
-Stef
I guess that confirms that the option order for R142 has been exercised. subway-buff told me that the option order for R142A has been exercised and some of the cars had arrived.
wayne
Yes, but what's odd is that a number of primary order cars have yet to arrive. So much for progress!
-Stef
The R142A's are up to 7690. 7661-70 will be the first set to run on the No.4 Line.
VRE apology sent to riders after a horrendous delay
Train Talk
July 16, 2002 1:15p
_____________________________________
The following is an update for Train
Talk subscribers.
____________________________________
The Commute from Hades on the
Fredericksburg Line Last Night
First of all, VRE apologizes to all
of you that had an extremely long
commute on our Fredericksburg Line
trains on Monday, July 15. We agree
that this delay was unacceptable and
want to assure each of you that VRE
will do everything possible to
address the issues that caused this
event. While passengers for
Fredericksburg and Leeland were hit
hardest, trains delays were
experienced all the way up the line.
What Happened: (Note: this offered
as an explanation, not as an excuse)
In short, CSX blew it last night.
The broken down freight combined
with a questionable dispatching
decision caused what turned out to
be an interminable delay.
A signal problem at Dahlgren
Junction (just north of
Fredericksburg) that started all the
difficulty was first noticed at
11:20a yesterday. It caused minor
delays to #301 and #303. However,
because the switch was still
working, CSX made the decision not
to order a repair. At approximately
5:20p the switch became completely
non-functional, which caused trains
not to be able to change tracks
between track #3 (closest to the
station) and track #2 (west track).
This problem, if left alone, would
have caused some congestion and
delays and take #2 track out of
service for VRE trains. A maintainer
(a person who fixes broken switches
and signals) was called at 5:20p,
but was caught in traffic and could
not get directly to the scene. In
the meantime at 6:15p freight train
Q401, which had 66 cars and was
almost one mile long reported a
broken air hose. It broke down
directly in VRE's path north of the
Dahlgren switch and effectively
blocked all trains southbound behind
it. The combina!
tion of a disabled freight and a
non-working switch in the same area
effectively froze all trains in
place.
Now a questionable dispatching
decision comes in to play. The CSX
maintainer arrived and repaired the
switch at 7:00p, BUT the CSX
dispatcher had already made the
decision to allow a freight train
and an Amtrak train northbound on
track #2 which took the option of
"going around" the broken down train
out of the picture. Before this
decision was made, VRE trains #309
could have changed tracks, picked up
passengers on #305 and #307 and
continued south. This would have
mitigated the delay for #311 and
#313 as well. However, this decision
to run the Amtrak and freight train
north changed what would have been a
troublesome problem to an extreme
problem. Now the only "go around'
was blocked and passengers had to
wait for the freight to move out of
the way. The freight finally cleared
just before 8:00p and trains began
to move shortly thereafter.
What Now?
This switch at Dahlgren is a problem
and needs work. It actually caused
some difficulty again this morning.
We are taking this matter up with
CSX and, as our landlords, we hope
they will rectify this situation and
counsel their dispatchers so they do
not have a repeat of last evening.
We are asking for a maintainer to be
on standby near Dahlgren until the
problem is completely fixed.
We know, regardless of whose at
fault, that you depend on VRE for
reliable transportation. We
appreciate that you and your loved
ones tolerance were tried by the
delay. As always we appreciate your
patience and continued patronage.
-
For the latest information, don't
forget to check out the VRE web site
at:
http://www.vre.org . If you would
like to unsubscribe yourself from
this
message service simply go to the VRE
website under "Train Talk" and
follow
the directions.
I was on a W this afternoon, I'd say Times Square heading south around 5PM'ish. It went express, but was routed through the tunnel. Stopped only at express stops in Manhattan. When we got to Canal and were on the local platform, I was skeptical, but we skipped everything until Dekalb, via Montague tunnel. After stopping at Dekalb, it continued as any normal W would.
Was all bridge traffic routed through the tunnel, due to something happening up there? Was the bridge overly congested and the W moved to the tunnel to ease things up? Anyone have any info?
No info, but a personal thought..
Don't you just find it interesting when a train runs nonstop through a local station platform and everyone standing on the platform has that strange look on their faces?
Last time I was on a train like this was a few months ago, riding on the #6 train, nonstop from 42nd Street to 14th Street on the local track.
I remember some years ago when this R62A 6 train actually skipped ALL stops between 42nd and 125th Street...after 42-GCT was 125th Street! How's THAT for weird?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Skip-stop service"
Yeah, I find it amusing. Especially at Whitehall street, the people on the platform looked like they were seeing a ghost or someting rolling by right in front of their eyes.
There was power outage around Jay street, that could've affected the bridge. Perhaps related signal probs.
An underground transformer exploded in the vicinity of the Manhattan Bridge today.
-Hank
This happens almost every day. In fact, it happened to me today also. If you had said you were at Times Square about 5:30 or 5:35, then it would have been my W train you rode. Usually when things get too jammed up on the express track and/or the bridge, the dispatcher at City Hall will reroute a W train through the tunnel in this fashion. We made stops at 34th, 14th, Canal, then DeKalb. Actually this was my first trip through Cortlandt St. since 9/11. To make up the time we lost, we were sent down the middle track on the West End line, express stops only (9th Ave., 62nd St., Bay Parkway). Still got to Stillwell 10 minutes late, but no biggie, this was 6:35 and I don't leave Stillwell until 8:01.
I think that was the train I was on. It got to 36th Street around 6, so it would've made it to Stillwell.
Maybe it was your train I got on. Cool.
I think that was the train I was on. It got to 36th Street around 6, so it would've made it to Stillwell around 6:30-6:35.
Maybe it was your train I got on. Cool.
Besides the AC power failure at Jay St and the South Channel Bridge on Jamaica Bay stuch open, there was some chatter on my scanner about a s/b #1 train at Park Place not moving and at least 4 trains stuck behind it. Probably all related.
I remember reading a post about the R-142A's being tested on the 4. Have any gone into service, and if they haven't when will they be entering service on the 4?
There was a report last week that an R142A was being tested in non-revenue service on the #4, so my advice would be to stay tuned to this board. When someone sees it, subtalkers will find out about it! -Nick
I have seen 2 R142as making test runs on the #4 line.they were in the hight 76s.i forgot the the numbers
saw them from yankee stadium
YANKEES WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TIGERS LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2-1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that the #4 was supposed to get some of the new cars to replace their 9200-series redbirds, I heard it was the R142 they were supposed to get.
wayne
No, the R-142 goes to the 2, 3, and 5; the R-142A goes to the 4 and 6.
yep,thats correct.of course the 3 getting the 142's is cause its giving up its R62A singles to the 7.this of course for anyone who didnt know that yet
Today on the 4 I saw 8800, 9100 and 9200 series cars on the 4 in addition to R62 type cars.
9100s on the 4? Oh goodie more redbirds to the 4 :0) lets go YANKEES!!!!!!!!!YAAAAA!!!!!!
Just curious, when is then next A and B division pick?
B pick is now.
A div starts 8/5
Presumably there are going to be some major schedule changes on the 1/2/3 in the middle of the pick. How will they be handled? Or will there be another pick then?
I thought they were going back to 'normal' or at least operate on a supplement (the current schedule) until the work was finished.
To bad I just came from the Union meeting and had those books in front of me. No matter someone from the A must know
The new schedules include "normal" #1/#9, #2, and #3 service. If the branch to South Ferry isn't ready when the pick takes effect, the current service pattern will continue to operate under "supplements" until the branch is ready.
David
If? The new pick starts 8/5; somehow I doubt the construction work will be done in three weeks!
Do the supplements send crews to lines other than the ones they picked? The 3 needs fewer crews now than it will after the line is reopened; the 1 and 2 need more.
The pick starting means they start to pick jobs, the pick is planned to go into effect on September 12.
During a pick everyone in seniority order gets a few minutes to pick or gets assigned a job. It takes a lot longer than people think at first.
Scratch that either Sept 8 or the 15th, I forget.
8th. The first Sunday after Labor Day. Which means we might see odd GOs on either Saturday or Sunday, due to service changes.
That's right some nice deadhead, too. You start a 1 job in brooklyn and can't go back.
The "pick" is an "advance date" based on the contract. Those picking now will have their "new assignments" at a later date, this is all a matter of "filling in the calendar" in terms of "regular employers" for tasks and work "to be done" ...
Betcha the timing of the pick will coincide PERFECTLY with the line reopening and those picking I'm sure have the wisdom to realize same even if they have to spend a week or three on "WAA" until the line reopens and their job number becomes real. Those who "play the game" likely know this as well. During my very short time with the TA, I actually got what I wanted as well, even if it wasn't the SHIFT I wanted on the line I picked (D-205/Brighton) ...
The pick is supposed to go into effect on 9/8 with a supplement working on the 8, 9, and 10 and service to the ferry starting on 9/11
I've been kind of out of the loop, but I heard that they were installing Automatic/Computerized operated trains on the L and 7 lines. When will or has this been implemented? I don't ride these lines so I wouldn't know, although I took a brief detour on the L yesterday to see if I'd spot one, but didn't. Will these trains be similar to the DC Metro?
Thanks!
Not quite.
Communication-Based Train Control (CBTC) is being installed on the Canarsie Line, and new cars (R-143) are being delivered to work with the new control system. Though the system will be capable of automatic operation (ATO), there will still be a Train Operator and the trains will not be run in a fully automatic mode. One can have ATO without CBTC (Washington Metro, BART, PATCO, etc.), and one can have CBTC without ATO. They can work together, but aren't the same thing.
The Flushing Line is supposed to be next, after whatever bugs are found are worked out of the Canarsie Line's system.
David
OK, so we got past the Philadelphia Oil Refinery, and now have an Arab Male CAUGHT taking pictures of the golden Gate Bridge, AND its Bridge Abutments and footings.
Not only that, but they put all of his footage on the TV so that we all could see how BAD he was. Photos are in the papers too!
Is the National Guard going to shut down the whole photo and camera and film industry and squash all semblence of the first admendment?
Actually I think not. One has many legitimate reasons to take pictures of bridge abutments. These range from:
1) Legitimate news stories
2) Artistic Photographs, (The picture of the abutment rising out of the water and soaring into the clouds *was* of high artistic merit.)
3) Wanting to be able to make a modle of bridge abutments on my railroad layout.
And many many others.
I beleive, therefore, that there be NO RESTRICTIONS whatsoever on taking pictures of whatever can be seen from a public place.
Certainly if you are an Arab Male, or a Caucasion-Asian-Black-Female or what ever, *AND* you were charged as a terrorist, such photos in your posession *could* be used as evidence against you (the worth of such evidence to be weighed by a judge and jury).
If I am taking such pictures (and I do), I'd not object to a friendly hello from an officer. And of course he is free to log what he sees in his notebook, after all he to is standing in a public place going about *his* business. Maybe he has the right to check an ID, but then, maybe he does not, with out more suspicion than this.
But any escallation of an incident beyond this is unwarrented, even if I were an Arab Male (or whatever). Protection of a property, such as a bridge lies someplace else, but not here.
Elias
Was he in a public place or was he on the wrong side of a fence or "no trespassing area"? Lots of areas around that bridge are not open to the public.
Was he arrested or just politely questioned/asked for identification?
Were there signs posted saying "no photos allowed" (not that this would necessarily be constitutional, but at least it would give the officer one leg to stand on)?
And was he asked to stop taking pictures by a police officer and did he then respond with highly impolite remarks (again, not much of a leg for the officer to stand on, but it might make the case more understandable)?
If he was in a public place AND he was arrested rather than just questioned, he has an excellent case for a false arrest lawsuit. Even Justice Rehnquist isn't going to go for allowing that (though Scalia and Thomas might). Because after all, if an Arab can be arrested taking tourist photos, so can Justice Rehnquist.
He was arressted in Spain.
-Hank
Wait a minute. The guys arrested in Spain weren't just arrested because they had Golden Gate Bridge pictures in their pockets. They have alleged Al Qaeda ties.
So if we're talking about the guys in Spain, it looks like they were arrested for other reasons and then the pictures were found on them.
plus, the pictures highlighted all teh structural details....not exactly tourist-like to take scientific studies of 10-or-so US landmarks from *all sides*, etc...
just lookign at the serious of pictures you could tell that it was a study being done. and by guys with links to al-qaeda.....that's enough proof for me
You should be quiet and not make such posts, afterall, your neighbors (and surely some on this board) in the new volunteer citzens anti terror guard will surely report you to the office of homeland security and have you sent to tribunal for exercising what was once your legal rights. You'll be detained for an undefined period of time, be given no right to counsel (as this is a 'war' and you have no rights), and will eventually admit to anything in order to get out of said situation - resulting in your jailing for the next 20 to 40 years before someone finally figures out you were doing nothing wrong and lets you out of jail. Maybe you'll get a metrocard to get you home (not that you'll have one at that point) and half a pack of newports.
Oh, and by the way, it's no longer "Mr. President" it's "Heil Bush!'.
Remember: the war on terrorism will be BETTER than the war on drugs.
>>>Remember: the war on terrorism will be BETTER than the war on drugs. <<<
In WHAT respect?
Inquiring minds have to know.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, instead of having a losing, never-ending war on something that doesn't hurt us (drugs), now we'll fight a losing, never-ending war on something that kills slightly more of us on an annual basis than train crashes.
Well, I figured somebody had to put this topic back on track (pun intended).
Both wars are important.
Yeah, but the "war on DRUGS" was declared. Merely an observation.
Not the war on drugs. What a person does with their own body should be their own business.
Absolutely correct. In general, there should be no victimless crimes, period. Otherwise you're imposing your personal values on other people. Who is to decide which values are worth following?
I do think that drugs that make one go nutso and lible to hurt other people should possibly be illegal or controled, but there should exist a wide range of legal soft drug alternatives so people won't turn to the illegal stuff. Of course, Alcohol is about the most destructive drug out there and its legal.
Depends on the compulsion-driven actions some drugs create and how they would affect the situation even under legalization.
If you've got a coke habit and the stuff is legal, but you've blown your cash to the point you can't afford the primo stuff in the local narcotics store anymore, do you go out and rob or burglarize someone to cover the added cost to avoid the cut rate (and cut) crap over in the discount bin? If so, then the situation is hardly any different than it is today, except possibly you end up with more people facing the same problem because it is legal (with alcohol cost doesn't factor in that much as far as the potency of the product goes -- you pay mainly for the production process, including aging and blending. Unless they come up with flavored/scented cocaine or hickory-barrel aged heroin to entice shoppers, potency would remain the main pricing distinction in a legalized drug market).
More people die because drugs are illigal (gang wars, high prices) than if they were legal. Wouldn't the 20,000% markup of coke tempt you to kill a few people? That's quite a profit for yourself. If they were legal, drugs would be MUCH cheaper and you won't have the violents ones out stealing money for it.
You have thousands of enforcement officals who try to stop the importing and transport of drugs, yet 95% (I'm just making up a number, feel free to correct me) of all drugs shipments still get in. That's pretty poor job proformance. It's a complete waste of mine and your money. It would be much cheaper to get drug addicts into rehab instead of jail. Don't forget that the gov't could TAX drugs if they were legal, so there's another source of revenue.
Cigarettes and alcohol are drugs, yet they are legal. How many people die from these? What is the reasoning behind this?
Cigarettes and alcohol are drugs, yet they are legal. How many people die from these?
I have seen many die from diseases caused by tobacco. One patient of mine was on three oxygen concentrators at once (with a non-rebreathing mask) just to be able to breathe. It is not nice to have to fight for your last breath. Can be expensive too, and for people who as cannot work, society pickus up that tab. A two or three dollar tax on a pack of smokes isn't all that bad *IF* that is where it is going.
NB. $1.50 tax/pack x 2 pks/day is only $90. per month, which is about the same as the difference between a smoker and a non-smoker on health insurance.... i.e. THAT TAX IS *NOT* Out of Line!
Drink is another problem. I have been to far too many car wrecks to not have strog opinions r/t drinking and driving. I understand that for whatever reason, some people are compelled to drink. Such people must never drive again. (period). In the City, it is easy, buy a metrocard. Out here it is easy (buy a horse) in the subburbs it is another problem.
Felony DUI is serious and needs strong enforcement.
Elias
["Cigarettes and alcohol are drugs, yet they are legal. How many people die from these? What is the reasoning behind this?"]
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Pernoally, I think cigarettes are more addicting but less intoxicating than marijuana, while alcohol is both more addicting and more intoxicating than pot, and cocaine and heroin are a lot more addicting than either, with herion tops on the intoxication/incapacitation scale.
Alcohol's legal position vis a vis marijuana more than likely is based on traditions that go back hundreds of years, due to the fact that pot plants don't grow very well in Western Europe or the northern United States, but grapes and all the ingreidents to make beer and hard liquors were wonderfully available to earlier generations. Not fair, but there are a lot of things that are based on the way things were done before that should have been changed, but weren't, like 8-foot-10 inch wide A Division subway cars instead of 10-footers.
As for the harder drugs, I think if they were legalized you would trade a narrower pool of clients and a not-very-cuddly network of suppliers who cause crime on their own for a legitimized/legalized network of suppliers, but a much larger pool of users. And, I suspect the companies that would supply the legal cocaine and heroin would have no better morals than the executives of the cigarette companies who have been demonized for their behaviors over the past 55 years. If Phillip Morris or RJR is caught tweaking their cigarettes to boost the nicotine absorption levels and the ensuing nicotine addition, who doesn't think that the new narcotics supplying companies wouldn't try to do the same thing. Nuns and public librarians are unlikely to be running such highly profitable corporations...
The problem with the 'War on Drugs' is the crime that follows drug users around.
What needs to be is the legalization of drugs. The price drops (I mean, what is that crap *really* worth), the pushers are out the fast buck, the users can get it without having to rob your house for money.
For those who *want* to get off of drugs, there can be programs, for those as who want to fry their brains to death: hey cremations are cheap.
But NOOooooo..... we are such moral people, insisting on the 'good' (and that all others be 'good' too, and share our morality) and keep this 'scourge' illegal, and oh BTW the prices high, and pushers on every corner.
Go ahead, choose which kind of neighborhood you want to live in. A few crackheads passed out in a corner somewhere beats pushers and crime on every corner anyday.
Elias
I was reading an article in today's Newsday about how the WTC transit hub is getting much closer to reality. (There is a photo of the very progressed work on the Greenwich St line) The network would inclue connecting 14 subway lines, Path, the Hudson River Ferry and also Commuter rail. The project is to contain a 3000 foot underground concourse area. It will include a cavernous building like Grand Central near Church St, and another for the subway lines by Broadway and Fulton.
The project will also reserve space as a provision to bringing in Metro North and the LIRR which will pull into a corridor beneath Liberty Street. The subway-PATH hub is in the immediate plans, while commuter rail is scheduled for 10-15 year range. The Fulton complex will be connected and the 1,2,4,5,C,J,M,Z connections all improved. The3 Fulton complew will actually connect through moving walkways and caverns to the Winter Garden.
How did they plan to connect the commuter rail to under Liberty Street? Other than that it looks like a fairly straight forward plan. I was just wondering how they were planning to bring LIRR/MN to the site. Directly from Grand Central? If the ROW for the High Line was still there, that would have been an option.
"How did they plan to connect the commuter rail to under Liberty Street?"
There has been no serious thought about this so far. Brookfield, owner of the WFC, proposes hijacking the Cranberry tunnels for LIRR trains, but the MTA is not treating that proposal seriously.
Any realistic proposal for bringing MNRR or LIRR to lower Manhattan requires massive new construction.
Unfortunaltely, that's what I figured. The Cranberry tube is an insane idea, and will not happen. I don't see how they feel the commuter rail will be possible, without major construction. There is no easy way to get fron Grand Central to the WTC without extensive tunneling, unless I'm missing something. From Penn it would be slightly easier by following the path of the old High Line. BTW, I know the structure now ends at 14th and 11th Ave, where did it terminate in Lower Manhattan, and is there anything left of it? I assume there is no ROW left anymore.
if you go to www.topozone.com, you can see US Geological Survey topo maps on line. Fortunately for historical research, these are often out of date.
The one for lower Manhattan shows:
- No WTC yet
- Highline tracks down to 2 blocks below W 12th.
So anything lower than that has been gone for decades.
In any case, there is now a nice new condo right in the ROW just south of Westbeth.
Like you say, Cranberry tunnel wouldn't happen (and is in the wrong place anyway) so noone should worry their heads about it.
For the LIRR it would make the most sense to figure a way to connect from the Brooklyn Line. This would have multiple benefits: it would utilize an underused resource (the Atlantic Avenue line), avoid placing an additional burden on Penn Station or the jammed Penn-East River tubes, and it would free up breathing space on the IRT Lines west of Flatbush & Atlantic, maybe even freeing enough capacity for an extension of the Nostrand Line.
If we get past the city-suburban rivalry thing, the commuter trains dead-ending at two big stations makes no sense at all, no more than all the BRT lines ending at Park Row before the Dual Contracts.
New York City stands to benefit big time from an efficient commuter line distributor, because a central city is only as strong as its accessibility. Otherwise, business has more incentive to go to Jersey City or Long Island.
"For the LIRR it would make the most sense to figure a way to connect from the Brooklyn Line."
Unfortunately it's the better part of 3 miles from LIRR's Brooklyn terminal to a central point in lower Manhattan. And any route you take is going to have lots of obstacles in the way that need to be gotten under or around.
But the land you're going through is a lot less burdened than in Manhattan. Fewer utilities and expesnive developed properties to go through, etc.
I'm thinking that is it were possible to tunnel straight out Atlantic Avenue, then go underwater to pop up on the WTC site, it might be the best choice. Maybe it could then through-route with MNRR up the High Line and up the west side.
"I'm thinking that is it were possible to tunnel straight out Atlantic Avenue, then go underwater to pop up on the WTC site, it might be the best choice. Maybe it could then through-route with MNRR up the High Line and up the west side."
All possible, but:
- If you tunnel straight through on Atlantic, you bypass the LIRR Brooklyn station. Unless you run dedicated Manhattan trains only, you have to build a new LIRR Brooklyn platform for the Manhattan bound trains. However, it's still probably cheaper than using the current station and then having to make awkward turns and tunnel under lots of subway lines in Brooklyn.
- Once you get into Manhattan, you again have to tunnel under lots of subway lines whatever route you choose. There's no clear route from the south (i.e., from an Atlantic Ave tunnel), what with the 1/9, the N/R, and the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel in the way. There are better routes from the east, but then your Brooklyn alignment is messier.
- There is little financial advantage to the high line route. It has many buildings in the way below 12th Street. Cheaper to tunnel under Greenwich St than to tunnel under the buildings.
- A Penn station connector doesn't serve the Harlem Division of MNRR, even once East Side LIRR access frees up tracks for the Hudson and New Haven Divisions to use. Also, Hudson Division trains would have to reverse direction to go to Penn, and then to downtown.
They should bring MNRR trains down the Hi-Line was far as it currently goes to a new mid-downtown terminal. When expanding transit, try working with what is already built before trying to build new.
"They should bring MNRR trains down the Hi-Line was far as it currently goes to a new mid-downtown terminal. When expanding transit, try working with what is already built before trying to build new."
Unfortunately the Meat Market (14th St and 10th Ave) is not a useful place for a rail terminal. There are no subways particularly nearby and only a few significant commercial buildings.
If you ride a 14th St crosstown bus westward, it pretty much empties out by the time it gets to 8th Ave.
Besides, only the Hudson Line of MNRR has the slightest chance of accessing the area until LIRR East Side Access is completed and the LIRR can vacate some track space at Penn.
In some cases, like a Second Ave Stubway, half a project is still much better than none. But I don't see it for the High Line unless it's connected to something else.
It would be cheaper to runn MNRR down there and then build a short connector to an underground terminal than try to tunnel a new line all the way. This country has had a lot of infrastructure investment. No sence not letting the past work for the future. If the choice is between 75% ideal transit or no transit (ot 100% ideal transit at 3 times the cost) take the less than ideal plan.
"If the choice is between 75% ideal transit or no transit (ot 100% ideal transit at 3 times the cost) take the less than ideal plan."
I agree.
The trouble is that a rail spur that just goes to 14th and 10th is 5% ideal, not 75% ideal. No one will use it.
As long as we're dreaming, extend the L to the new terminal to solve the "no subways reach it" problem.
Plus, commercial growth could occur around the terminal once it's there.
Plus, commercial growth could occur around the terminal once it's there.
That's true. That's actually what happened around both Grand Central and Penn station when they were first built. The area around the first Grand Central was almost in the middle of nowhere when it was built. 42nd Street was almost farmland.
Penn Station's area, although slightly developed, was a pretty run down neighborhood.
Which is why they built them there in the first place.
The old High Line is a farce, not worth anything except perhaps as a novelty for pedestrians to walk on. There is no way you coulr *RUN* a moder high speed commuter train up there.
And No reason to do so either. Tring to get MN trains trhough NYP interlockings would be a major headache for everyone.
Elias
The Hudson Line at least could bypass NYP entirely and go straight downtown.
To what? A pair of 90 degree turns and a terminal in an old meat market?
: ) Elias
Be creative. You take a shuttle bus from the new WTC towers to the meat market, pick up some quality beef, and then catch your commuter train home. The perfect trip-chaining example.
Considering that the city wants to redevelop the entire West Side from the WTC to 57 Street, a new commuter rail terminal at 14 Street could be interesting. And if nothing else, a restaurant could be built right under the station and they would have the freshest meat around. The High Line Cafe, maybe?
And trhrough all of this discussion, My Plan is still the best and looking better!
Manhattan under Avenue C doesn not have a lot of infrastructure in the way, following around on Park Row you are below the existing infrstructure coming in right on the floor of the bathtub.
Lower Montauk is much more viable for high speed service than it the Atlantic Line *AND* MN trains could come across Hell Gate Bridge and right into the new tunnel.
Ane NJT get a direct shot into the station, and existing PATH service is not disrupted. True, PATH as a connector from NJT becomes irrelevent, but it becomes a Major player for those living and or working in the near-by New Jersey communities.
My Plan is Clearly the BEST, so you guys just brin it in to the mayo and those other dudes and show them what should be don.
(In my Humble Opinion, that is)
: )
Elias
"…Manhattan under Avenue C doesn not have a lot of infrastructure in the way"
Theres a reason for this, the foundation in this area is too soft. All the willow trees around and on Avenue C thrive cause of all the undergroud streams in that area. A common truck drives down C and everything shakes; doesnt seem to stop all the apts being thrown up around there tho. Not knocking ur plan, just saying Avenue C may cause a bit of issue in construction
I'm thinking that is it were possible to tunnel straight out Atlantic Avenue, then go underwater to pop up on the WTC site, it might be the best choice.
Straight out of Flatbush Av Terminal is very problematic. All sorts of infrastructure is in the way (several Subway lines for starters). However, there would be quite a neat route which could take the Atlantic Av Branch into Downtown Manhattan:
Two track tunnel under: Atlantic Av, Ft Greene Pl, Brooklyn Tech Pl, Commodore John Barry Pk, Nassau St (Brooklyn), Orange St, East River, Maiden La, Cortlandt St to WTC.
Stations At: Fulton St / Lafayette Av, Jay St, Water St, WTC.
Stations At: Fulton St / Lafayette Av, Jay St, Water St, WTC.
Hey! you're talking LIRR. the only stations are:
Jamaica
WTC
For all points in between, there is the Subway.
Elias : ) Fromer LIRR Customer
No, I want downtown to grow, hence 2 stops in Downtown Manhattan and 2 in Downtown Brooklyn. Local rides would bring in income too - charge more than the Subway :D $$$
LIRR customers would REVOLT!
They do not want to make local stops in the city and its occupied provences. I used to take the Lirr from NYP non-stop to Merrick, Bellmore and Wantaugh!
If LIRR customers want brooklyn they take the Atlantic Branch to Brooklyn, they wnat WTC, they take a NON-STOP to WTC.
This is the difference between a subway and a commuter train.....
Commuter trains leave the Terminal and speed on out to their own branch.
Elias
They are now redesigning LIRRs Altantic Terminal (scheduled finish by 2006). Would be a long while before they even think of extending this branch into Manhattan.
If anything, the LIRR would extend through 34th Street, more likely so if Nov # we hear NYC is chosen to represent N America in the final running for the 2012 Olympics
LIRR linking NJT as one Olympic linee in the proposal. If anything from that they could extend south the High Line or West Street (as earlier suggested west island routes) to WTC area
The problem with the mixture of LIRR and MN is the need for a compatible third rail.
Naw, you can use compromise shoes, like on the FL-9s
Unfortunately it's the better part of 3 miles from LIRR's Brooklyn terminal to a central point in lower Manhattan. And any route you take is going to have lots of obstacles in the way that need to be gotten under or around.
We've been paying for Brooklyn's ban on steam engines for a century. If the line still went to the Brooklyn waterfront like it originally did, there would have been a tunnel built to Lower Manhattan decades ago.
Not neccessarily, since it would have to begin it's descent to go under the riverbed well before the waterfront, meaning that the Atlantic Avenue tunnel would be useless anyway. BUT, there would be a direct path for the trains to cross through the Atlantic complex.
Any Brooklyn route would involve building a deep tunnel for the LIRR beginning well east of Flatbush so that it's at least three levels below the current LIRR terminal (you could still have a terminal station at the current IRT level, and you could even have a station three levels down, though access would be a pain). After running it all the way down Atlantic, the line would have to curve towards due west to get over to lower Manhattan to the west of the IRT and BMT tunnels. From there, it could go under the Battery Tunnel's tubes and come up to the WTC site on Washington or West streets.
A route from Penn Station could theoretically use the High Line and then build an elevated line over West Street south of 14th, so long as the MTA is willing to combat The Mother Of All NIMBY Battles with the residents of Chelsea.
A more likely option would be an elevated line over 12th Ave. and West Street from the 33rd St. yards south to the WTC site, or a tunnel down 10th Ave. and then Greenwich or Washington Streets to the WTC. The former would be a lot faster to build, but would probably face more NIMBY fights; the latter would probably have its own NIMBY battles, but would be less a presence after it was built and would only have to deal with crossing the PATH line in Greenwich Village (or going over it for several blocks, if it ran down Greenwhich St.).
The problem with a West side alignment into WTC it that WTC would have to be a TERMINAL with terminal service and many tracks for holding and maintaining trains.
With my cross river plans, WTC is a station, with only four platforms and 10 tracks. LIRR terminal services are provided in New Jersey, and NJT terminal services are provided at Sunnyside. It gives NJT trains laid up in Sunnyside the option of being used at either NYP or WTC.
Don't even talk to me about a WTC terminal, unless you have a place to service trains.
Elias
There should be some serious considerstion into the RPA ''METRO RAIL'' lines...with the spur to the former WTC....
If you tunneled to Manhattan from the Flatbush terminal you would have to obliterate the 1840s tunnel, would you not...
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, any East River tunnel would have to pass well underneath it, if I understand the grades.
Recently, I have seen and smelled old things coming back to haunt certain subways and their stations. It seems I am seeing homeless people lounging out in the subway cars and the benchs in the stations. On top of that, since the summer time with its humidity, I now smell the urine aftermaths. I guess there no police enforcement crews anymore?....or cleaning crews in the big stations?....what is a nose supposed to do under these circumstances?
I am especially concerned about not seeing too many police personal on the trains.....what gives?
Giuliani's gone (he was tough on quality of life crimes).
Budget problems means less cops on the beat.
"More important" things for cops to do, like sit at the mouth of tunnels reading a book...oops, I mean, watching for terrorists.
have I forgotten anything?
Aside from the city's (and state's) budget woes, there's also the little matter of the defunding of Clinton's "100,000 cops" in exchange for that big tax cut ... you remember I'm sure, that same tax cut that cut the funding for terrorism intelligence prior to that little "whoopsie" last year? Ya gets what ya pays for ...
But with an already shortened police force reassigned to more important duties, there's fewer to go around for "whizzing on the third rail detail" ... bottom line, we need to hire some more.
I think that I've seen more cops recently. However, I also see more quality of life problems like the ones mentioned before.
I agree, some bad things seem to be coming back. It's probably due to the combination of the faltering economy and Bloomberg's wimpy attitude about crime and quality of life issues.
This is not offensive.
http://www.moonamtrak.org/
Kinda interesting, weird. Can only happen in California.
AEM7
Maybe if I start a website and promote it enough, we can get one started in NYC. I'm thinking the south side of the Manhattan Bridge..
Bad enough I hear a bunch of assholes every day. Now I gotta see them too???
I'm proposing that we sell out a ten car load of redbirds with mooning foamers INSIDE, posteriors to side glass as the train slowly battery runs the entire system. So for once, the TA can "give back" to the customers as it gives the "toot toot" through station after station. Now wouldn't you want to cash in an RDO to motor THAT interval? :)
Well, you know, it's like a proctologist - they have to work with assholes all day every day.
That does it! We've got to organize a LOCAL fantrip ... "moon over the redbirds" where the exhibition is INSIDE the fan train. How about it, folks?
Only in NY!
I think it'd be a genuine "GO" ... with the longitudinal seats on them redbirds, all the foamers could line up, posterior to glass and watch the reaction of the geese on the platform as it slows down to 15 to leave the station. Sure would amuse more than a dark train rolling by. :)
Ah, for the days when NYC was FUN ...
Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase “They’re all a bunch of bums!”
John
Oh my. Next thing you know, word about the Over The Line tournament and Black's Beach will filter back to the Right Coast.
Oh my. Next thing you know, word about the Over The Line tournament and Black's Beach will filter back to the Right Coast.
how many.. ""born on the east coast".. members do this crap ??
california is like a lot of other states , folks are from other places
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On www.alexia.com, Dave's site is ranked as 36,208 based on average traffic.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=nycsubway.org
I only read the background of the rankings briefly but the lower the number the better.
Straphanger's Campaign ranked 234,346
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?q=straphangers&p=DestSearch_W_t_40_M1&url=http://www.straphangers.org/
nycrail (Harry's place) ranked 649,137
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?q=straphangers&p=DestSearch_W_t_40_M1&url=http://www.straphangers.org/
Now what does this all mean?? I haven't the faintest idea but NYC Subway Resources is far ahead of some of the competition.
Keep up the great work Dave.
This is a very alarming development.
Alexa.com is sending out a torjan that collects statistical information (and disguises itself as a toolbar under IE).
Although obviously it is nice to see that Dave's site is getting viewed by people, it's alarming to see that people at Alexa.com know what Alexa toolbar users are looking at. Therefore, one should never install the Alexa toolbar if one cares about one's privacy.
From Alexa.com
The traffic data is based on the set of Alexa users, which may not be a representative sample of the global Internet population. Known biases include (but are likely not limited to) the following:
Our users are disproportionately likely to visit alexa.com and archive.org, and traffic to these sites is substantially overcounted.
The Alexa Toolbar works only with the Internet Explorer browser. Sites frequented mainly by users of other browsers will be undercounted. For example, the AOL/Netscape browser is not supported, which means that Alexa collects little data from AOL users, and our traffic to aol.com is likely lower than it would be for a more representative sample.
The Alexa Toolbar works only on Windows operating systems. Traffic to sites which are disproportionately visited by users of other operating systems will be undercounted.
The rate of adoption of Alexa software in different parts of the world may vary widely due to advertising locality, language, and other geographic and cultural factors. For example, Korean sites are prominent among our top-ranked sites, but it is unknown to what extent this reflects high rates of general Internet usage in Korea.
In some cases traffic data may also be adversely affected by our "site" definitions. With tens of millions of hosts on the Internet, our automated procedures for determining which hosts are serving the "same" content may be incorrect and/or out-of-date. Similarly, the determinations of domains and home pages may not always be accurate.
>>Therefore, one should never install the Alexa toolbar if one cares about one's privacy. <<
I never, ever install a toolbar from someone elses site.
Reminds me of the google toolbar. I don't know how much info, if any, that the Google toolbar is sending back, but I've never seen anywhere near this much detail on google.com
I think the google toolbar has a mode that ranks the search results (PageRank). I don't know how much information it sends back, but it's turned off by default ayway.
When you download the bar, Google gives you the option for the version that sends back info or one without.
Note that Lavasoft's AdAware detects the Google toolbar as "Alexa", so they may well be the same underlying software.
8165-8172 in service today.
yippee!
My count is 8 in service? I'm probably wrong since there are many trains that keep getting moved around {ie sent back to yard for fixup, sent back to company that made them?}
while this is not official, I see a rotating mix of 5-6 trains Monday Rush Hour to late Friday PM. They do not seem to run them weekends due to split L (or thery are running on the L shuttle from Broadway Jct to Canarsie.)
If desired I can post the cars I see each night. I was doign that but someone complained. What is the general consensus?
Don't worry about "someone". Their posts are mostly steel dust anyway.
Now that the Manhattan Bridge is undergoing repairs and the D train is terminatng at 34th St. and Sixth, for the third time that I can remember, it becomes apparent that the connection between the Manhattan Bridge and the Sixth Ave. lines was a mistake. The IND Second system plans called for the line to get a tunnel under the East River to Brooklyn from Manhattan, not the cheap quick fix that was made with the bridge. The bridge is not getting younger, and will need penty of care over the next few years, while a tunnel will serve the purpose and not be a juicy target for any fanatical maniacs who would consider hijacking an airliner and flying it into the aforesaid.
The connection between the Sixth Ave. lines and the Eastern Division lines is not even being used anymore, except for maybe equipment moves on a non revenue basis, so would some consideration be in order for the Christie St. Connection to be re-done so that the original plans in the IND Second system can be put in place with service being provided to the passengers who would use the Grand St. station, so that they would no longer have to deal with problems on the bridge?
If you say that the money is not available, that may be true, however, what you try to save today by going for the cheap fix will be spent later due to the costs of trying to maintain the old structure down the line. This is not anything inflammatory, I just would like to kow what some of you guys think. Brooklyn could use two more subway tunnels to Manhattan to ease the crowding, and if each tunnel had four tracks each, rush hour would be much more tolerable. OK, so that is a real pipe dream, but the riders could use some relief.
The second system did not go to south Brooklyn, it is true, it would have had a BIG STATION COMPLEX at South 4th Street (if you know where *that* is), But... Traffic pattern never developed in that neighborhood, so that a train there today would be less valuable.
(Naturally enough, had the line been built, the area would have developed, but that is another issue.)
With the infrastructure that we have today... this *is* the best we could do. The (D) or the (B) could have been sent across the Willie B to Myrtle and or Canarsie.... but hey wait a minute! That bridge is close for repair too!
It is true that more service is now needed in the Bushwick-Broadway area, but it is also true that More service is needed in East Queens, and that Myrtle Avenue and Metropolitan Avenue are ripe for new lines. Local service between Jamaica Center and Manhattan on both lines but FAST NON-STOP EXPRESS service from Union Turnpike, Jamaica Avenue, Linden Boulevard, and Merrick Boulevard are also worth doing. But these could not merge into the existing lines, for as we have seen they are all (but the (J) ) maxed out. Therfore they need new crossings, and new Manhattan Turnks....
Oh Well, I already told you about the Fifth Avenue and Ninth Avenue Subways. : )
Elias
If the Second ave concept was followed though as conceived... then the Chrystie st lines would be valuble even with out the spurs. As of right now,the line could be used via the Jamaica line to any one of it branches...The MTA could use this connection to help with the crowding at Essex/Delancy hub....and if the Second ave route was started from Downtown[Water st]and a connection was made to the BMT Montague st Tunnel[replacing the Nassau st line's],direct service could be provided to Brooklyn.Also,the DeKalb/Rudgers connection should be built to bring Brighton trains into Manhattan to 6TH AVE. Whatever the case may be,the fact is that this route is not being used as it was intended,not only because of the Manhattan Bridge,but it was the only station of the Second ave line that was built,and it lacks the REST OF IT'S ROUTE!!!!! As of right now,the subway system looks just like it did pre-1967[with out the new extentions].There's so many ways you can fix this,or you can do nothing.... I guess it all comes down to,who screams the loudest......
The Broadway-Jamaica is a useless routing because it is SOOOOOOOO SLOWWWWWWW to Jamaica, and... nothing can be done about that.
A Myrtle Avenue Subway, and or a Metropolitan Avenue subway as I have described them could bring more traffic and development to an area that needs it, but builting those lines alone without also building Fast Express lines from Eastern Queens is not feasible.
Build thoes Avenue as trunk lines for the fast express, and the local lines are a gimmie.
Elias
Redesigning the Jamaica EL[in a few key locations] would speed the trip up much more than now.eliminating the ''S'' CURVE in Cypress hills could and would help...also a track connection to the Fulton street subway at ENY..... THE OPTIONS ARE ENDLESS...but one has to have the vision[and cash/balls]to do it!@!!!!!
Upgrading the J line is a much feasible idea than to build a subway that will take years to construct. As was said before, just eliminate the S curve.. reconstruct an express station at Woodhaven Blvd.. and your good to go.
N bwy
The only thing which could make it better then would be some interurbans!
What was needed most hasn't happened 30 and more years later: another east side trunk line and more service to Queens, possibly with extensions beyond Jamaica in more directions than one. While routing of some former Broadway services like Brighton and West End MAY have increased capacity the 6th ave serice is not a real improvemnt; some gained, some were inconvenienced.The connectionto the Eastern lines unused for years. If all the capabilities were used it may have been worth it; as it stands, no. Just like 63rd st..IMHO anyway. Had more Queens tackage been available..yes,but not as is.
The only way you can get new sunway tunnels for the B and D right now would be to somehow connect them into a proposed bi-level tunnel that would also bring the LIRR into Lower Mahattan.
Running a tunnel to paralell the Manny B would allow the MTA to use much of the current approaches to Grand Street and DeKalb as connectors. The Manny B's four tracks could then be converted into a two-track alingment for the Broadway line -- one on each side of the current roadway to balance out stress on the bridge, while the pedestrian/bicycle paths on the outside of the lower roadway could be widened (if they wanted to splurge they could even build a flying junction beneath Canal St. to allow both the Broadway and Sixth Ave. lines access to the tunnel, so that the bridge tracks could be completely unused on nights and weekends).
Bringing the LIRR tracks across the river near Pike Street would make it tough to get down to the WTC, but the tracks could be curved back to the southwest and brought down Madison and then Pearl streets to a new terminal near the South Street Seaport. Not exactly at the proposed transit hub, but close enough.
Doing this would allow the MTA to get the backing of both the politicians from Brooklyn and from Long Island for the project, as well as the downtown real estate developers and building owners who eye a new LIRR terminal with more fondness than they do a new IND tunnel from Brooklyn.
"Brooklyn could use two more subway tunnels to Manhattan to ease the crowding"
What crowding?
Once the Manhattan Bridge is reopened fully, the only crossings operating at more than 70% of capacity will be the IRT tunnels. And even they could support more trains if the 5's grade level crossover were made into a flying junction.
Once the Manhattan Bridge is reopened fully
IF it reopens.
IF it stays open.
(Once the Manhattan Bridge is reopened fully. --- IF it reopens. IF it stays open.)
Given the past 20 years and the next two, and the risks for the future, clearly a major investment that relied on the two old bridges was a mistake.
It was a further mistake with regard to the "opportunity cost" -- what could have been done for the same amount of money. The TA could have built the Rutgers-DeKalb connection, and structured 2nd Avenue station to have the express trains run through to Brooklyn while the locals terminated further along on the underutilized Lower East Side. That would have provided some relief to the threat to the Manhattan Bridge, and a base from which to build a new tunnel to replace the Willie B tracks if needed.
True, this is retrospect. But the problems of the bridges were well known at the time, and no one was even painting them.
"…The TA could have built the Rutgers-DeKalb connection…"
Was thinking about this earlier. What stopping that from being created now? While the Manhattan Bridge is closed (or the next time :-| ) that could be constucted.
After 2nd Avenue, the express tracks are set up for a tunnel already
Do you know of any problems with the rebuilt side of the bridge? I haven't heard any so far. The trains are crossing the bridge now.
Rather than aimlessly speculating, why not do a little research on just how the repaired side is performing now and report the results here? We'll all learn something...
"Rather than aimlessly speculating, why not do a little research on just how the repaired side is performing now and report the results here? We'll all learn something..."
It's more comfortable to just worry.
Engineers have known how to stiffen up bridges ever since they fixed "Galloping Gertie" (the Tacoma Narrows Bridge) after the road bed collapsed. The towers are still the originals but that replaced bridge has now stood for about 50 years. All it takes is knowledge, good engineering design, and money.
Some people just won't admit that the only way the MB won't support subways for a long time to come is if either:
- Maintenance is neglected (in which case nothing is safe; tunnels can go bad too if you don't watch out).
or
- There is a vast conspiracy to hide the fact that the redesign of the bridge was a complete act of incompetence and the bridge is still not stiff enough to handle trains over the long run.
The towers on the TNB are new. This is because the new bridge was made 4 lanes for more traffic (the replacement took 10 years) and for more balance, before it was too long and narrow.
The piers however are the same. If the towers were wide enough, they would have remained.
Engineers have known how to stiffen up bridges ever since they fixed "Galloping Gertie" (the Tacoma Narrows Bridge) after the road bed collapsed. The towers are still the originals but that replaced bridge has now stood for about 50 years. All it takes is knowledge, good engineering design, and money.
The Tacoma Narrows Bridge was not "fixed." It was effectively built new to a new design using the original anchorages and tower foundations only.
Some people just won't admit that the only way the MB won't support subways for a long time to come is if either:
There is technical knowledge, which should be the most important thing, but there is also experience in how the City has historically handled things, as you acknowledge in saying:
- Maintenance is neglected (in which case nothing is safe; tunnels can go bad too if you don't watch out).
or
- There is a vast conspiracy to hide the fact that the redesign of the bridge was a complete act of incompetence and the bridge is still not stiff enough to handle trains over the long run.
I think there's more than just "stiff enough." The City had a number of surprises leading to the closing of the WB and partially closing of the MB. Stiffening added enough dead weight to the BB so now they claim it would be threatened by too many SUVs. You're certain that changes to the MB won't strengthen bridge at the expense of live load bearing capacity?
(Rather than aimlessly speculating, why not do a little research on just how the repaired side is performing now and report the results here? We'll all learn something...)
I think we'd all like to hear something. Given what has happened, why isn't the media insisting on quarterly reports on inspections for cracks? No one is saying anything.
Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I doubt there would be public access to any core material that suggested that the entire bridge reopening and staying open might be doubtful.
But we have a decade and a half of evidence that suggests the bridge may have long term problems.
The test is not how one side or the other of the bridge is performing under load, but rather how the entire bridge will perform when the overall train traffic increases by 50% or greater.
"The test is not how one side or the other of the bridge is performing under load, but rather how the entire bridge will perform when the overall train traffic increases by 50% or greater."
No, you're dead wrong on that one. Right now the bridge is accepting very heavy subway traffic on one side only - exactly the nightmare NYCDOT engineers had to anticipate when they started repairs. So right now is an excellent time to see just how much the bridge's twisting has been reduced.
When the steel braces on the north side are fully in place, then subway traffic will once again exist on both sides; and that data will also be useful and vital. But if the bridge performs well now, under maximal non-symmetric stress, that should be good news.
But the final verdict, though, will come from DOT's engineers, not Subtalk.
While on a cost:benefit ratio based on what the City is paying for the opinions of its engineers, and what it's paying for the opinions of those on SubTalk, SubTalk wins hands down! :)
The question is, what is the relivance to the Chrystie Street connection. When you look at it, the trackage is based mainly on these two bridges being operational
A post a while back that asked the question of what if: What if the Manhattan Bridge was not an option anymore (for whatever cause/reason) what next? Same what if applies to the Willamburg?
Broadway Express and 6th Avenue Express no more. J, M, Z are cut (as was a while back when they were fixing the bridge)
Given the current setup, except for Grand Street Station, the more I look at the connection, the more I question it (based on the various posts about it)
It doesn't matter where the trains come from. The only thing that matters is whether the "Manny B" will be able to handle the train loads or not.
If the bridge's repairs are successful, a Chrystie St Connection usage would be successful, and so would any other.
I understand all of that. Would be glad in the bridge could handle the train loads with near repair again, was still just a "what if" in the back of my mind.
I don't think the connection was a mistake, it just wasn't utilized properly.
The service provided by the KK/K was local, and the primary equipment used (R7-R9 - 6 car trains at the end of their careers) was not going to attract ridership necessary to make the service a success.
Now if you tried something a little different, such as a new service from Metropolitan Avenue than ran express from Myrtle Avenue Bway to Essex Street, and then up 6th Avenue, you may get some ridership. The same could be said for a new express service from Canarsie that switched over to the J/Z and ran express from East New York to Essex and then up 6th. In both cases, you are giving M and L riders the option of a 1 seat ride into Midtown Manhattan.
The other problem now presented with instituting Christie Street Service is where are you going to turn the trains. 57th Street - 6th Avenue is no longer a terminal. You'd have to send the trains up 8th Avenue to 168th during rush hour.
"The other problem now presented with instituting Christie Street Service is where are you going to turn the trains. 57th Street - 6th Avenue is no longer a terminal. You'd have to send the trains up 8th Avenue to 168th during rush hour."
Or, as has frequently been discussed, to Continental as V trains (not ideal because they can only be 480' long).
well,why can't they be 8 cars long[eastern division size]? the V only carries about 50% of what the E/F does,so why not swich over to R32,RUN 8 car trains hook up with the J at Essex/Delancy and bang them out to Metro' orENY or Rockaway pkway?
If they do that, then they'll admit that the V is not working the way it should be.
They'd be cutting back train capacity by 20% by running 8 car R32's.
But you are on to something. Maybe they don't need 10 car trains on the V. The V is replacing the G which never ran into Manhattan, and hence the increase in capacity from this improvement only warrants 8 car trains.
I'd run the V out to Metropolitan or Rockaway Pkwy via Bway Bklyn Express.
Question: With the realignment at Atlantic Avenue - did they leave the connection in between the Bway El and Canarsie lines?
I believe, from what other people posted here, that the connection between the broadway line and the canarsie line was severed while they are doing the reconstruction of the Atlantic Ave station. It is supposed to be fully resotred when they are finished with the Atlantic Ave project. I think your ides for the v train are very good. The V should be extended either to Metro Ave or Canarsie. If it is extended to Canarsie the J and Z could run full express from Broadway Junction to Marcy. I don't know how many more trainsets they would need for that, but maybe with a combination of r shortening the V trains to Eastern Division lengths (with 60 foot cars) and some extra cars with the bringing of the R143, they may havge enough.
the connection is there, i dont know what the others were talking about, but i have seen it earlier ths month
I think it's back again. It was however gone for a while.
I wouldn't run the J/Z full express and let the V pick up the local stops. This was the problem with the KK/K service.
What I want to offer is Express Service to Midtown Manhattan which will hopefully attract ridership. So by starting the service from Metropolitan or Rockaway Pkwy, you make all the local stops picking up passengers to Broadway, and then via the Express over the Willy B.
Maybe have the Z express from Eastern Parkway to Essex. But the V should not run local. It would be making the same mistake as the earlier KK/K service. No one is going to ride it.
Running the V local to Rockaway Parkway would be different than the earlier failed KK/K service. The people in the Canarsie area are currently served by the L, which makes only local stops into Manhattan, so the V would give them the alternative of another local into Manhattan, but one that would go all the way to the midtown instead of only to 14th, where they have to transfer north at Union Square, Sixth or Eighth Aves.
In contrast, when the KK was running to 168th St., its competition at the far eastern end of the route was the E and F trains over on Hillside Ave and Queens Blvd. Those two lines did run express into the same midtown areas the K/KK served. Given the option of which train to ride, passengers living east of Woodhaven Blvd. saw no reason to alter their existing commuting patterns to use the new KK service, since it was unfamilar, part-time and slower than the E and F. That's why it failed.
From Rockaway Pkwy., a V train via B'way-Brooklyn would arrive at Sixth Ave-14th St., roughly as fast as the L from Rockaway Pkwy., so it would be a viable option for people going north of there. At the same time, using it as the local from B'way Junction to Marcy (along with the M west of Myrtle) would permit both the J and Z trains to run peak direction express along Broadway, which would make both those lines more attractive to people along Jamaica Ave. headed into lower Manhattan, who now jam the E to the gills at Jamaica Center, or cram onto the F at stations from Kew Gardens east to 179th St. (Plus the flyover from Canarsie to the B'way el hooks into the local tracks at B'way Junction, so running the V onto the outer local tracks and letting the J/Z oome in on the express tracks during rush hours would involve the least amount of switching, leaving the M crossover at Myrtle and the Willie B merge after Marcy as the main bottlenecks).
Of course, this option is still a ways down the road even if the MTA though it was a good idea. With the CBTC testing of the R-143 trains coming up on the L, there won't be any other line sharing trackage with it until the test is concluded and CBTC is expanded to the rest of the Eastern Division, or at least to the J/Z line between Essex and B'way Junction.
You make some very good points.
Since L riders are making all stops anyway, they are used to the local. The V would offer a one seat ride to midtown.
And if the connection from the Canarsie line comes down along the local tracks, you'd have to run the J/Z express to avoid the bottleneck.
You may also get people off the E and onto the J/Z by running it express between Eastern Parkway and Essex.
If the skip-stop J/Z is kept in effect between East New York and 121st St. and both lines run express from East New York to Marcy, there would be a significant boost in at least the feeling of speed on those two lines, even if the time saved was only 2-3 minutes at best. An, as anyone who rides the IND in Queens can tell you, perceptions do count in terms of how well the service is used, which is why some people still won't get off or wait for a crowded F train over a far emptier V.
The only problem you would have is from people getting on/off at local stops between Myrtle and B'way Junction and are headed to/from downtown. They would now have to change once at Essex, Marcy or Myrtle from the J, M or Z to the V train, but I think like the G cutback to Court Square so the V could run Queens local, the benefits would outweigh the liabilities.
The only problem you would have is from people getting on/off at local stops between Myrtle and B'way Junction and are headed to/from downtown. They would now have to change once at Essex, Marcy or Myrtle from the J, M or Z to the V train,
That's relatively minor, as you have to remember that some of those stations passengers would actually not have to change to another line to get to midtown, while now they do have to change. I also think Kosciousko, Gates, Halsey, and Chauncey are not the "most" used stations on the line anyway, so I think the benefit will be for more people, than the few that may have to transfer from those stations.
. I also think Kosciousko, Gates, Halsey, and Chauncey are not the "most" used stations on the line anyway,
They sure are, especially Halsey & Kosciousko.
In 2000, Koscius(z)ko [aside: how is it really spelled?] ranked 362 systemwide (755,744 boardings) and Halsey ranked 305 (1,093,787 boardings). They're pretty typical for the line -- every station on the J/Z in Brooklyn and Queens is ranked in the 300's except Marcy (198), Flushing (240), Myrtle (247), Chauncey (402), Broadway Junction (159 for the entire complex), Crescent (284), Cypress Hills (410, the third least used station in Brooklyn), Sutphin (74 including the E), and Parsons/Archer (19 including the E)
David, where did you get that information? Is it online somewhere, I'd be interested in seeing the list.
It's not online anywhere, AFAIK. I'm told the ridership reports, in print form, are available by request from NYCT, but I haven't bothered with that. All I have are photocopies of a few pages from the 2000 book (annual ridership and rank of each station in list form, annual rank of each station in map form, and historical counts at Manhattan IRT stations -- can you believe that 72nd had 13,068,597 passengers in 1930, and 50th had a full 15,331,473?).
If someone can confirm that I wouldn't be running afoul of any copyrights, I'd be glad to scan the pages I have and post them online. (But the result might be better -- and more complete -- if someone with the entire book did the job instead.)
Incidentally, I'm glad I got the 2000 numbers. The 2001 numbers are badly skewed for obvious reasons, and the years before 2000 each had rehabs that closed stations for a while and messed up the counts. AFAIK, everything was normal in 2000.
If you ran the service from Canarsie via the local, I'd still think you'd get the ridership because it's one seat to Midtown. Canarsie riders are used to making all stops. Here, they won't have to change for a ride up to midtown.
If you ran it from Metropolitan, the same applies. You are providing a one seat ride again to midtown.
I agree. That's why if the V came from Canarsie, I think it should be the local, and the J/Z should be the express.
If they do that, then they'll admit that the V is not working the way it should be.
I don't see it as such an admission - the MTA are right in asserting that even the current low loads on the V train have practically solved the overcrowding problem. If these loadings continue, they will both be able to claim success and shorten the trains.
I believe the connection from the Eastern division BMT was a waste of money. The connection to the Southern division via the Manhattan Bridge was not.
Looking back at it, I agree with you, it was a waste of money because it hasn't been used in a quarter century.
I still think there will be some potential use for the connection sometime in the future.
maybe the 2nd Avenue Subway
Why do you believe that? I'm just curious to know. If direct Midtown service is very important, then shouldn't the Eastern Division have it too. You have the L, but it doesn't go into the CBD and you have to transfer to another train. If you live near the M in Queens or Bushwick, you're looking at a three-seat ride. I think the reason the old KK train failed was because it only ran during rush hours and was local all the way from Jamaica and it mostly used tired old prewar IND cars. I think if you run the V through the Chrystie connection to Metropolitan Avenue, you just might have a potentially popular service. Chrystie-BMT East may not be as useful as Chrystie-BMT South is, but it is far from a waste of money. It's certainly worth another try, given how much the subway has changed since the late 60's and 70's.
And when the KK was run, Broadway Brooklyn was in total shambles and in decline. Broadway is far from "heaven" now, but it's not the total "neighborhood from hell" it was back then and a few years ago. I think ridership is increasing on the line, and if anyone rides the J/M/Z it's hard not to notice quite an exodous and stampede from the train at Essex-Delancey as people transfer for the F. Many would welcome direct service to midtown, or even a "same platform" transfer, depending on where the train starts at (Metro, Jamaica, or Canarsie)
And I'm sure the F is already overcrowded. And they have the empty V train dead-ending at 2nd Avenue, when it could be sent over the Willy B to provide one-seat service to Midtown for the Eastern Division. You also have the M dead-ending at Myrtle nights and weekends, when it could run to Midtown to bring riders directly to all the attractions, instead of having to transfer to the J or L and then to another train.
Running the V to Broadway-Brooklyn sounds like a good idea; however, you'd have issues over train length and car availabilty. The R-46s currently used would have to be swapped with 60-footers, plus you'd be limited to 8-car trains.
The G train always had shorter trains on Queens Blvd, and since the V isn't filled to capacity, they may be able to use shorter trains. They can possible increase the tph a bit if need be.
The connection was no mistake. It was a vast improvement over the pre-Chrystie configuration. The Manhattan Bridge structure problems are a seperate issue.
To me the question isn't so much whether it was a "mistake" as to whether it's goals were valid and whether it succeeded in achieving its goal. For the sake of the argument, let's consider that the Manny-B was still fully open.
Stated goals and "marks":
Greater capacity through DeKalb Avenue B
More service through DeKalb Avenue F
More Midtown eervice for Southern Division BMT B-
Midtown service for Eastern Division BMT F
More efficient use of 6th Avenue Line A-
Operating efficiency from through routing of lines ending in CBD B
If you accept my analysis, you will notice that the areas in which Chrystie succeeded best were areas where of interest mainly to the TA, not its passengers.
I also didn't factor in what were not goals, but rather side-effects: a poorer midtown line and connections for Southern Division riders, and much poorer financial district service for those same riders.
Greater capacity through DeKalb Avenue B
I'd give this one an A. The post Chrystie configuration allowed for 48 TPH to midtown (24 Broadway, 24 6th Ave). This capacity was never fully exploited. It was the TA's idiocy not to fully maximize the Broadway capacity by limiting Brighton/Broadway service to the one-way rush hour limited QB route.
More service through DeKalb Avenue F
I'd give this a C. Again, the pre Chrystie St. configuration rendered the south tracks almost useless, and they were hardly used for revenue train service after 1931.
More Midtown eervice for Southern Division BMT B-
This one deserves an A+. Fault the city for not using all the capacity the Chrystie St. connection gave to the Flatbush Ave corridor, not the design.
Midtown service for Eastern Division BMT F
Yup. The Essex/6th Ave connection was a failure fron day #1 and should have never been constructed.
More efficient use of 6th Avenue Line A-
The express tracks increased capacity nearly 100%
Operating efficiency from through routing of lines ending in CBD B
What Chrystie St. did was to solve two major problems with one stroke: giving the southern division BMT the surplus northern terminals it's service required (5 routes, only 2 real terminals), as well as giving the 6th Ave IND the surplus southern terminals it's service required. It also allowed for more efficient and even increases in D & F service because both of these routes no longer had to share a track from B'way Lafayette to 34th St.
Greater capacity through DeKalb Avenue B
I'd give this one an A. The post Chrystie configuration allowed for 48 TPH to midtown (24 Broadway, 24 6th Ave). This capacity was never fully exploited. It was the TA's idiocy not to fully maximize the Broadway capacity by limiting Brighton/Broadway service to the one-way rush hour limited QB route.
I couldn't give this an "A" because it increased midtown capacity at the expense of downtown capacity.
More service through DeKalb Avenue F
I'd give this a C. Again, the pre Chrystie St. configuration rendered the south tracks almost useless, and they were hardly used for revenue train service after 1931.
Still give it an "F". The TA operated fewer trains through DeKalb several years after Chyrstie Street than they did before.
And that's not so about the H tracks. They could have been more effectively used, but still they carried four different rush hour services through most of the '50s and relieved strain on the Montague Street tunnel. Sure, this was at rush hour, but from the passenger point of view, Chrystie was all about rush hour. BMT Southern didn't need more service during off hours.
More Midtown eervice for Southern Division BMT B-
This one deserves an A+. Fault the city for not using all the capacity the Chrystie St. connection gave to the Flatbush Ave corridor, not the design.
But I'm talking service. Before Chrystie you had Brighton, Sea Beach, West End Expresses operating to midtown, after Chyrstie the same thing. Plus you lost Brighton Locals to both downtown/midtown. There was more theoretical capacity, but the actual services available were less useful than before Chrystie.
I couldn't give [greater capacity through DeKalb] an "A" because it increased midtown capacity at the expense of downtown capacity.
Which is what was supposed to have been done. Midtown has grown faster than downtown for a century now, the past year being no exception. Downtown didn't need the service that it had back then. Still, the loop could not have full capacity. It was limited to whatever could fit in half the Montague tunnel. If that many trains were needed, they could have just run them all up Broadway (there was room) or have Eastern Division trains use the tunnel. The M right now is hardly used. Was that capacity necessary?
Note that a gave DeKalb a "B", not lower.
But the H tracks gave extra capacity to the Loop nevertheless, since trains used the loop both ways, four services needed to use Montague Street in only one direction.
Still, that makes the south side only two half tracks, as opposed to two full tracks like it is now.
Well, Chrystie Street will seem much more worthwhile if they operate four expresses (Brighton and Sea Beach on Broadway, Brighton and West End on 6th) if the bridge reopens both sides.
The original plan was supposed to increase service dramatically, not just shift it from one line to another.
The QJ/QB scheduling decision was the big mistake the original plan made, presumably with the idea of maintaining one regular Monday-Friday service via the Brighton line to downtown Manhattan, while running only M-F rush hour express service via Broadway for Brighton customers.
In retrospect, the TA should have made the N and QB the full-time services and run the QJ on the Southern Division route the M currently uses. That would have forced Brighton riders headed downtown to change at DeKalb, but it would have given both sides of the Manny B two midtown express services, via Broadway and Sixth Ave.
The original plan had no Brighton Broadway service at all, at any time, just the D express and QJ local.
They addded the QB and NX (which came off Sea Beach intervals anyway) in response to widespread protests.
Going by that, my suspicisions over the years that the "Ghost of Mike Hylan" and his idea of IND recapture of the BMT Southern Division away from the Broadway line may have been a fairly big factor in the initial post-Chrystie route plans.
A lot of original IND people from the late 1920s and 1930s who were brought up with the same mindset; that the city's subway was better than the BMT or the Interborough; were probably still around and in top management positions when the Chrystie St. plan was drawn up in the late 1950s. The decsion to shift the Southern Division from 3 BMT Broadway lines and one IND Sixth Ave. line terminating at/near Coney Island to 3 IND and one BMT line doing that post-Chrystie (QJ to CI M-F 6:30 a.m.-8 p.m.; D all other times) is a plan Hylan would have been proud of -- well, maybe he would have grumbled about why that damn BMT Sea Beach train was still going to Stillwell, but he would have been happy with the Brighton and West End routes.
Of course, it was an idiotic plan for the people who actually used the line, especially if the QB was not part of the initial post-Chrystie route scheme. But it did do a good job of castrating the Broadway Express for most of an entire generation, until problems with the Manny B forced the Broadway tracks back into heavy usage.
(Going by that, my suspicisions over the years that the "Ghost of Mike Hylan" and his idea of IND recapture of the BMT Southern Division away from the Broadway line may have been a fairly big factor in the initial post-Chrystie route plans.)
The real problem is that in Midtown, from 30th to 60th Street, the Broadway line and the Sixth Avenue line are redundant. If only we could wave a magic wand and move one of them east!
I agree, and posted on a thread about that a few months back that logic would have dictated back in the 1920s that the IND build one Manhattan line on the east side and one on the west side. Builing an Eighth Ave. subway and a Second (or Third) Ave. line would have been much more practical, but an east side subway would have done virtually nothing towards cutting into the ridership of Hylan's hated BMT on the Broadway line, the way the Fulton St. subway killed the BMT's Fulton el.
So even though the city had to dig around the PATH tracks for 1 1/2 miles on Sixth Ave. and tunnel through the PATH/BMT/LIRR laybrinth at Herald Square -- two barriers that drastically increased the cost of the project duing the middle of the Depression -- the city chose to build two west side subways, with the ensuing consequences over the past 65 years.
(Builing an Eighth Ave. subway and a Second (or Third) Ave. line would have been much more practical, but an east side subway would have done virtually nothing towards cutting into the ridership of Hylan's hated BMT on the Broadway line, the way the Fulton St. subway killed the BMT's Fulton el. )
That might have explained the planning, but remember that Hylan's folks thought the second system would be built. The 6th Avenue Line, however, was actually done in the LaGuardia Administration, and LaGuardia was mostly into roads. This was the only subway he built, and he didn't plan any more. So he, and Robert Moses his Planning Commissioner, should have realized that this might be the last line, and thought of it that way.
Someone once told me that he heard that it was all part of a real estate deal. This was before WWII, when the suburbs and the office district near Grand Central were not yet what they would become. The office district was still Downtown, and most of Midtown's jobs were west of 5th Avenue.
The prestige office location of the 1930s was Rockefeller Center. The new presige residential areas were the new art deco apartments on the Grand Concourse and the semi-suburban areas of Queens like Rego Park, Forest Hills, Jamaica Estates. The 6th Avenue Line, Queens Boulevard Line, and Concourse Line tie these together.
Larry, I suspect you have nailed it. In my view, real estate and other money issues will trump a single ideologue.
You're probably right about the Rockefellers' influence on the Second Ave. line -- certainly in the 1920s and 1930s, tha affluent areas of the East Side were far less than they are today. But IIRC, the original IND route plan in Manhattan predated the purchase and construction of the complex by John D. Rockefeller Jr., so the idea to build along Sixth Ave. was in the works when Hylan was in office, no doubt in part because of its proximity to the BMT's Broadway line.
The money the Rockefeller family shelled out for the center in the early 1930s and their need for higher real estate values in the area (hard to picture the Radio City Music Hall marquee on Sixth Ave. obscured by el tracks) was likely the driving force behind actually getting LaGuardia to build the line, despite all the construction obsticles on Sixth Ave. between Ninth and 35th streets. But the center, which went up very fast, was conceived between the conception and construction of the IND's First System (and while Fiorello was a big backer of Bob Moses' roads, he also disliked els in general and enjoyed tearing them down, though his was more of a generic dislike and wasn't BMT-centric, the way Hylan's was).
(hard to picture the Radio City Music Hall marquee on Sixth Ave. obscured by el tracks)
Someone pictured it.
With as much money as John D Jr. spend on the marquee, no wonder he pressured LaGuardia to take down the el. :-)
I'm always amazed at how ornate the old Manhattan El's stations were. As much as I would love to go back and have just one day to ride the els in Manhattan (must've been amazing), Manhattan is better off without the els on it's Avenues. Even though I know it was there, and see it in the photo, I just can't imagine an elevated structure in front of some of our landmarks like Radio City.
I used to think like this as well. But the East Side, even today, is a less desirable location, especially as far east as 2nd Ave. There is no real demand for Brooklyn/2nd Ave service. The demand for this line is from the areas currently underserved by the lone Lexington Ave. trunk.
You're right about that, because Brodway (and Sixth Ave.) are more centrally located, but as Third Ave. has built up into more of a business area over the past 40 years (between about 37th and 65th streets), people working in that area who live in Brooklyn might opt to walk east instead of west to the Lex to get the subway home.
And, of course, had they built the Second Ave. line back in the 30s instead of Sixth Ave., odds are Second would be far more of a commercial street today, given the post-WWII development of the East Side.
And, of course, had they built the Second Ave. line back in the 30s instead of Sixth Ave., odds are Second would be far more of a commercial street today, given the post-WWII development of the East Side.
Agreed. But today, new subway lines are built to accomodate existing needs, not to create new ones.
But today, new subway lines are built
They are?
All right, new subway lines are planned to meet existing needs.
The original Chrystie St. configuration had the north tracks feeding into the IND's 2nd Ave plan of 1929.
IMHO, doing that would have been a huge mistake. The 6th Ave. and Broadway lines might run paralell to each other, but they run like this thru the most desired midtown destinations. If the bridge had a Broadway/2nd Ave configuration, the vast majority would be riding the Broadway services.
Not necesarily. Alot of the development concentrated in midtown west might have been spread out to the east, which would have become more developed.
But that's silly. The BMT-IND feud was settled on 6/1/40. The "BMT" lines after this date were city run.
True - but it is unmistakeable that the TA decimated the Broadway BMT in favor of the IND 6th Avenue Route. If access to midtown were the issue then why send the Brighton Local to Jamaica - Jamaica riders now had 2 Coney Island services, while Astoria riders LOST both of theirs.
I still don't understand the logic behind the QJ. If you're going to run a Nassau St. line down the Brighton line, why the longer J and not the M? That QJ trip from 168th St to CI must've been a real pain for the crews.
Because the J and Brighton Local were a closer match in TPH.
A great mistake was to kill the West End Nassau service. This has since been rectified by running the M from Metro to Bay Parkway.
The D run to 205th was about the same length - about 94 minutes one way on a good day, 2 hours on a typical day. I loved it. OVERTIME! :)
You'd like operating the current #2 train. 1 hour 45 minutes terminal-to-terminal, if all goes well!
Yeah, the number one is a charlie horse run also since you don't fall back when you get to the south end. :)
They did, and I hope they will not do that again when the north tracks reopen. Broadway serves both commuters and tourists well, while 6th Avenue seems to be more of a commuter-oriented line. Even when the south tracks were closed, 6th Avenue seemed quiet on weekends below 34th Street, while N and R trains were standing room only a lot of the time. Broadway has better service now and should continue to have it when we get all four bridge tracks back in service.
The ownership question may have been settled in 1940, but the mindset on which the IND's inital system was built -- that the lines, instead of serving new areas of the city would compete against existing BMT and IND lines for most of their routes -- may have still been ingrained among some of the top personnel running the system (the E, F and G lines east of Roosevelt Ave. in Queens being one of the only exceptions).
I have no way of knowing exactly what the planners were thinking back in the 1950s when they devised the Chrystie Street plan. They may have envisoned two express routes each over the Manny B for Broadway and Sixth Ave. at the time. But the end result in 1967 was the cut back of the Broadway line's express routes to the bare minimum and no easy access except for riders in far southwest Brooklyn, with a nonsensical "Local from Hell" taking the Broadway route's place on the Brighton line (heck, if you wanted a second Coney Island-Queens route via downtown it would have made far more sense to run the EE via Brighton local than the QJ).
South Brooklyn riders were steered over to the Sixth Ave. line, even though the BMT Broadway route had much better conections to the rest of the system and served stations with overall higher passenger usage. It could have been just due to a misreading of post-Chrystie ridership patterns on the TA's part, or there really could have been a "IND is best" ethos in place that caused the ill-advised routes to be selected.
If anything good can be said for Chrystie Street Connection, is that it lines up with Second Avenue.
When the section of the 2nd Avenue line (between Grand Street and the 63rd Street tunnel) is built, can start a new line. Brighton-2nd Ave-Queens Blvd line for example; hopefully by then the MTA decides and have the money to extend a new route through Brooklyn and Queens
The section the K line used (Essex to Bway-Lafayette) is the question, but maybe later that could be redone to run up 2nd Avenue also
hopefully by then the MTA decides and have the money to extend a new route through Brooklyn and Queens
All they have to do is connect it to the very underutilized Nassau Street Line. The infastructure potential is amazing on that line. There are so many unused and abandoned tracks on that line. You could easily have across the platform transfers with the J/M/Z lines, and the Nassau line connects with almost every line in the system - almost every station connects to something. And you have an instant connection to Brooklyn. I think it is a very good way to cheaply (or cheaper than a whole new line) connect the 2nd Ave subway to Brooklyn, and at the same time resurrect unused already built, but abandoned infastructure - why let it go to waste. Whenever I look out of the railfan window of a Nassau Street line train, I can't believe how big it is down there.
Lets say the Z was became a permenant express, (AM to Manhattan and PM to Jamaica) and used that trackage to become the Second Avenue Line
The M from Brooklyn, with the transfer to the Z up on 2nd Avenue
This is one of the more interesting discusions on this board,for years the Eastern division[J] was my line.From the first time I ever stepped foot on a subway in NYC,[A from PAB]IT was always my favorite...I've seen it from it's worst[blackout of 77] to its best[now].I was there when the QJ/KK went to train heaven[and that imposter M replaced it],and again in 76 when the K went bye bye[which left us with the worst service and cars]. The point I'm making,is that you dont have to work for the system to know whats right and whats wrong with it...you DO have to be a PASSENGER!! We know what we want and need[and whats best for us as commuters],what makes our trip easier/faster and more comfortable. the less time it takes us to get to where we have to go ... the better.WHICH brings me to this.. the whole concept of the Chyrstie st line was on point[even though it lacks definishtion].Thur routing from Jamaica to C.I[QJ] was a mistake,that should have gone to the M from the jump.Shorter trip, shorter cab time for operaters. All day service from midtown to jamaica[with expresses ALL DAY into the late evenings along Bway,skip stop along Jamaica ave during the rush]should have been one of the opptions.that why the KK FAILED.Rush hours only,all local except the am skip/stop did not cut it at all .To this day,I still say the middtown run should have been made the MAIN TRUNK LINE,to and from Manhattan,operating 24hours a day. When first proposed ,the Bway /Bklyn[Chyrstie st] line was to operate to 168 st Washington hts[via 6th av to West 4th st,the 8th ave local]Of course it wasnt used,because it became the B train insted.Here's my gripe...most riders want a direct trip to Middtown,most have forgoten about this link.....the TA has done nothing to push this or give commuters a heads up about it. They 'ed rather spend huge sums of cash to incress transfer oppertunities at Essex st. Far be it that I should be the one to say that the station complex doesn't need a make over[cause it does],BUT...HOW ABOUT A SERVICE ADJUSTMENT? Why not sent the V train over the bridge to Bklyn?" Why not send it to Cressent st or ENY? Why not switch cars with the E [75ft for 60ft],run 8 car train to Forest hills? I mean,thats what the V replaced... didnt it? This line has so much potental,such as what it does right now ..PLUS... OFFERING direct service to and from Eastern division station[what the KK/K use to do].mull this over for awhile... see if it makes sense to you like it does to me.......
"…The point I'm making,is that you dont have to work for the system to know whats right and whats wrong with it...you DO have to be a PASSENGER!!"
In the end, passengers have to deal with the routes, agreed. How they react and reroute themselves can indicate the success/failure of that route/change. The QJ was excessive, but question the M to Bay Pkwy at times too. Also, passengers can be off at times on what they what could work too (eg. the initial uproar against closing MBs 6th Ave side for repairs, now most love the Broadway Express) So propose, throw out ideas, test and balance accordingly, much like this group does.
Gave a bit of thought about the J, M, Z, B, D, V lines & came up with the following:
M - Nassau Street Local (9th Ave to Metropolitan, why does it need to go to Bay Pkwy)
J - Nassau Local Remains permenantly this
Z - Nassau Express (AM Manhattan-PM Jamaica) - 6th Avenue Express. Provides direct express service bet 6th Ave and Jamaica without need of transfer (Essex-Delancy) & may relieve the E line; J/M would be enough service to Broad Street.
*V - 6th Ave Local-Utica
*B - 6th Ave Express-Utica (leave the W for Broadway-West End Line)
* Only if a new line is created, otherwise excess. Would follow the Z route to Myrtle Avenue. Another 2 tracked el would branch after Myrtle Ave Station south onto Malcolm X Blvd. At Utica Ave and Fulton St, branches into 3 tracks; (express AM to Manhattan; PM to SE Brooklyn) to Kings Plaza. Only fear is the bottleneck that could occur at Myrte Avenue and Essex St.
For one, accessing an area which has remained basically forgotten. Utica Avenue has a lot more potential for development.
It would also relieve the numbered lines tremendously and provide an easier route into Manhattan without passing through Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan.
F line can remain; D return to Brighton-6th Ave
Yes there would be now 5 lines on 6th Avenue, but coming from areas were that would drive costomers to use it. Furthermore, after 2nd Ave is built, could shift one of these over to the new line
Hey,that Utica avenue line sounds line a winner to me... could use a line out there[like for years].to tell the truth,the B46[no matter how much you ''tweek'' it]still is a LONG bus rider down to K.P. I 've talkin this trip more times than I care to remember....and believe me when i say nothing can be done to make the trip easier EXCEPT by subway... I 've always questioned the M's south terminal..the line itself always seemed like it was the''J plus''..thats why I'm for it removal. ITS service seems redundant,and could easly be merged with the J/Z south of Myrtle,and replaced entirely with a new line going uptown in Manhattan from Metropolitan ave,adding to its value.Right now,the line is barely used[the 24 minute HEADWAY G.O. WASN'T EVEN FELT IN LOWER MANHATTAN] Thanks for understanding....
"M - Nassau Street Local (9th Ave to Metropolitan, why does it need to go to Bay Pkwy)"
The reason why it was sent to Bay Parkway, is because, the B line alone didn't provide enough service for that stretch.
N Bwy
(heck, if you wanted a second Coney Island-Queens route via downtown it would have made far more sense to run the EE via Brighton local than the QJ).
Yup, the old QT would have been better than the QJ.
Which only highlights the idiocy of the post Chrystie service plan. The NX was dumb from day #1. The outcry and the implimentation of rush hour QB service should have sent a message that midtown was more important than lower Manhattan, even in the 1960's.
I couldn't give this an "A" because it increased midtown capacity at the expense of downtown capacity.
But it didn't. The same number of trains which could run thru Dekalb into lower Manhattan was unaffected by Chrystie St. Pre-Chrystie service to Nassau St via the south tracks was almost non-existant. Again, the service pattern didn't exploit all the potential capacity
Still give it an "F". The TA operated fewer trains through DeKalb several years after Chyrstie Street than they did before.
And that's not so about the H tracks. They could have been more effectively used, but still they carried four different rush hour services through most of the '50s and relieved strain on the Montague Street tunnel. Sure, this was at rush hour, but from the passenger point of view, Chrystie was all about rush hour. BMT Southern didn't need more service during off hours.
IIRC, pre Chrystie St. service after the opening of tha Nassau St. loop in 1931 only used the H tracks for rush hour specials. The H tracks, accessing only the Nassau St. loop, didn't attract enough ridership to warrant anything more. By the late 60's, midtown was an even more desired destination. The H tracks today, if still configured as they were pre-Chrystie, would be virtually useless.
Again, the connection's layout was sound. Capacity was increased significantly. But this capacity was never properly utilized.
But I'm talking service. Before Chrystie you had Brighton, Sea Beach, West End Expresses operating to midtown, after Chyrstie the same thing. Plus you lost Brighton Locals to both downtown/midtown. There was more theoretical capacity, but the actual services available were less useful than before Chrystie.
Here we agree. The service plan was assinine. Brighton local riders were screwed. West End riders benefited greatly with all-day midtown service. If i could have planned post Chrystie St. service, I'd have run the QB all day long as the Brighton local, and whatever Nassau St service running thru Dekalb would have been routed via the 4th Ave local and Culver line to Ditmas Ave, possibly saving this connection from it's inevitable destruction.
The same number of trains which could run thru Dekalb into lower Manhattan was unaffected by Chrystie St. Pre-Chrystie service to Nassau St via the south tracks was almost non-existant. Again, the service pattern didn't exploit all the potential capacity.
[...]
IIRC, pre Chrystie St. service after the opening of tha Nassau St. loop in 1931 only used the H tracks for rush hour specials. The H tracks, accessing only the Nassau St. loop, didn't attract enough ridership to warrant anything more. By the late 60's, midtown was an even more desired destination.
As a point of history, there was substantial rush-hour service on the H tracks until about 1957. This consisted of West End Locals running on the H tracks towards Brooklyn and Culver Expresses running towards Manhattan throughout the rush hours, plus there were about four or five each of 4th Avneue and Brighton Specials. The specials used the H tracks in the direction of peak travel and used the tunnel in the direction of light travel.
So, in the aggregate, you had 16-18 trains (8 Culver/West End, 4-5 each Brighton and 4th Avenue) running on the H tracks in the direction of rush travel in the peak hour. This was not as much as the nearly 30 TPH on the A tracks, but neither was it nothing.
Once Chrystie Street was opened, you still had close to 30 TPH on the A tracks, but then only had a maximum of 20 TPH on the reconfigured H tracks (15 N/NX, 5 QB), not nearly what was promised. Be aware that this represented the height of Chrystie Street service--it was downhill from there, even while both sides of the bridge were open.
Now that all downtown service was in the Montague Street Tunnel, there was Brooklyn capacity for only 15 trains on Broadway and 15 to Nassau Street.
I know this is somewhat confusing, but what it boils down to is this.
At its peak, there were 50 TPH in the peak hour directly to midtown vs. 30 TPH before.
But there were 30 TPH in the peak direction to downtown vs. 36-38 before.
And there were 15 trains via tunnel to midtown vs. 20 before.
So the raw number increase of 20 more midtown expresses was somewhat offset by a reduction of 11-13 trains in other services.
I'm sure you can argue that the cut trains were less useful than the added trains, but that is only partially true.
If, after MB opens fully, they run 15 each B and D to 6 Avenue, and 15 each N and Q via bridge to Broadway, I'll be able to give Chrystie capacity increase an "A". But in the past, IMO, it's never been better than "B".
But there were 30 TPH in the peak direction to downtown vs. 36-38 before.
I have to correct myself here. Until 1957, in the peak hour there were approximately 44-46 TPH to downtown in the peak direction. These consisted of:
10 QT
10 RR
8 TT to Nassau Street
8 Culver Express
8-10 Brighton and 4th Avenue Nassau Specials
After Culver-Nassau was discontinued this became about 36-38 TPH
After Chrystie Street this became 30 TPH max, consisting only of
15 RR
15 QJ/RJ
30 TPH, and a much less diversified service.
[...]
If, after MB opens fully, they run 15 each B and D to 6 Avenue, and 15 each N and Q via bridge to Broadway, I'll be able to give Chrystie capacity increase an "A". But in the past, IMO, it's never been better than "B".
15 TPH each for B/D/N/Q is excessive. 12 TPH on each line gives adequate service, and it would be a 25% increase over current service.
That's 48 TPH straight to midtown, the more desired location. That's why Chrystie St. is a success. If not more trains overall, more trains going to the more desired destinations. You couldn't fit more than 30 TPH on the AB tracks pre 1967.
You couldn't fit more than 30 TPH on the AB tracks pre 1967.
Um, hey were the "A" tracks before 1967. Us BMT guys notice stuff like that. ;-)
Us gen-xers don't.
Us gen-xers don't.
But there's no "X" train, so you guys are inherently off-topic. :)
lol
Would like to see what happens after the bridge reopens:
Brighton Local (D) express up 6th Ave
Brighton Express express up Broadway
West End (B) express up 6th Avenue
West End (W) express up Broadway
Which will people really for and why?
The West End doesn't need a Broadway and 6th Ave service.
So which one will the West End Lone take after the bridge is completed, 6th Ave as before, or continue on Broadway?
It will go back to the B with it's routing on 6th Ave.
Possibly. Possibly not. As one of our posters is fond of saying, all possibilities are still being considered.
But even if you want to assume that the Brighton will have two bridge services and the West End and Sea Beach will each have one, why do you assume that the West End will go to 6th and the Sea Beach to Broadway? Trackwise it would be just as easy to swap them (after all, they'll be on the very same tracks between 36th and DeKalb in either case).
Wouldn't it be equally possible to do this (and make the Sea Beach and West End BMT Fans very happy):
(B) abolished - some C trains run on Concourse Line at Peak Times.
(D) Concourse Local - 6th Av Express - Brighton Local
(N) Astoria - Broadway * - Sea Beach
(Q) 57th St - Broadway * - Brighton Express
(R) Queens Local - Broadway Local - 4th Av Local
(W) Astoria - Broadway * - West End
* two of these three Express, the other Local.
It would be possible, but I'm not sure it would be a good idea.
For one thing, the commonly assumed arrangement has four bridge lines, and this only has three. I can't say for sure that four bridge lines would be better before I've seen the results of a source-destination survey, but I can guess.
For another, it cuts local service on CPW and Concourse in half. That wouldn't provide sufficient service on either branch of the line or on the CPW trunk.
It would also overcrowd D trains north of 59th St, being the only 6th Ave route running on CPW.
For another, it cuts local service on CPW and Concourse in half.
Nope, it'd be a massive increase to Local service as the D train would be increased in frequency to provide good service for the Brighton and Concourse Lines. A few C Trains would fill in the rest of the need on the Concourse Line. It would just eliminate one route being 3 minutes slower than the other on CPW. For those who are petty enough to still want that 3 minutes, there's still the A Train.
Probably a very silly idea, but theoretically possible and fun...
So the D would run local on CPW?
I ask because there's a common misconception here that the CPW local stations are desolate. In comparison to the nearby IRT stations, that's true, but they're still busier than stations on (e.g.) the Concourse line. One CPW local on weekdays won't cut it (and I'm not convinced it's a good idea on weekends, either).
So the D would run local on CPW?
Of course. Why not?
At current service levels, I think all three could be express.
The thing I was concerned about was if the R Train would be sufficient for Downtown.
If the R isn't enough you could run additional R trains short-lined at Whitehall, as was done in the past, or create a new service from Astoria to Whitehall.
After the bridge is restore, the W should run to Whitehall Street (via local). And the N should be put back on the express tracks.
N Broadway Line
No decision has been made, but a safe bet is the restoration of the 6th Ave B.
The W won't make it to Coney Island (via West End) once the B is back on the Manhattan bridge.
N Broadway Line
"More Midtown service for Southern Division BMT B- "
I'd argue most with this one. There is no way you can fit two Brighton services, one Sea Beach, and one West End onto the BMT Broadway express track. Therefore, the 6th Ave connection was essential for allowing better service to midtown.
Yes, you could have even more service, but is it really needed? You can't fault NYCT for failing to give everyone a seat. As long as trains aren't seriously overcrowded, they've done their job. And post-2004, if they run (say), 12, 12, 8, and 8 trains on those 4 lines they will be providing ample service.
"More Midtown service for Southern Division BMT B- "
I'd argue most with this one. There is no way you can fit two Brighton services, one Sea Beach, and one West End onto the BMT Broadway express track. Therefore, the 6th Ave connection was essential for allowing better service to midtown.
But that wasn't the original plan or service. Before and after Chrystie you had one Brighton, Sea Beach, West End Express, but you were supposed to have 15 TPH on each instead of 10.
Greater capacity through DeKalb Avenue B
I would say more like C- - the Gold Street interlocking project did make the switching less of a pain, but Chrystie St did not alter the fact that there are still only 6 tracks through DeKalb and across the East River.
More service through DeKalb Avenue F
I agree with you on that one.
More Midtown eervice for Southern Division BMT B-
I'd give this one a D. The only benefit having Chrystie St open would give today would be allowing the N Train to run express, saving 3 minutes IINM. The N train still reaches Midtown, but it runs via Downtown. The remaining 2 crossings aren't even used at anywhere near their combined capacity.
Midtown service for Eastern Division BMT F
In terms of service, you are right. In terms of capacity, this is the one area where I would give the project an A.
More efficient use of 6th Avenue Line A-
I'd rate this at B as it removed the ability for Expresses to terminate at 2nd Avenue and didn't add it at Grand Street, leaving the current 34th St terminal on the B and D trains.
Operating efficiency from through routing of lines ending in CBD B
You are just about right on that one.
However, it has major failings:
- the flying junctions onto the 6th Avenue Express, in addition to being ineptly done in removing emergency terminal capacity, took up money which could have been spent on tunnelling straight on up 2nd Avenue.
- 6th Avenue Express was less necessary than 2nd Avenue Local, as express service was already on 7th Avenue and on Broadway and there are no Subway Lines at all in the area East of Lexington Avenue.
My argument is that it was not a total mistake - the local tracks of it added capacity - but the express tracks were misappropriated for harping on after an old misprioritisation by the IND. Okay, 6th Avenue Express (including Chrystie St) isn't useless, but it was a grave error to construct it before 2nd Avenue from Grand to 63rd.
building the 6th Avenue line was definitely a mistake.. Not only the money could have been used for the 2nd Avenue line, the Path could have been expanded to 57th Street and help to eliminate the two-fare zone. Plus.. the same connections could have been made to more subway lines - allowing transfer flexibility.
N Bwy
On an either/or basis, I don't believe two tracks on 2nd Avenue were or are more important than added capacity on 6th Avenue, to the heart of midtown.
Plus you could not have built that much of 2nd Avenue for the price of the deep tunnel from 4th to 34th.
(On an either/or basis, I don't believe two tracks on 2nd Avenue were or are more important than added capacity on 6th Avenue, to the heart of midtown. Plus you could not have built that much of 2nd Avenue for the price of the deep tunnel from 4th to 34th.)
All things considered, I also believe that if they knew then what we knew now, they'd have wanted the last additional line east of Fifth Avenue, rather than having a fourth lines between 6th and 8th, in Midtown. Just imagine the entire 6th Avenue line between Houston and 63rd, in exactly the same configuration and with the same links, but on Third Avenue. All we would need is the Stubway to finish out the system in Manhattan.
A bigger waste of money than the 6th Ave line was the Fulton Avenue subway. A great line, yes, and I like it very much, but the Fulton el was partly rebuilt to dual contract standards, and was just fine, if they finished the last parts that were not rebuilt. The money spent on the Fulton subway should have been used to build a 2nd or 3rd Ave subway. Then you would still have a line on Fulton (in the form of the el), a second line on the East Side of Manhattan, and the LIRR Rockaway Branch may have been connected to the Queens Blvd line in addition to (or instead of) where it connects now, thus providing subway service also between Liberty Avenue and Queens Blvd.
Of course, when I talk about the fact that they should have kept the Fulton el and nit build the Fulton Subway as mentioned in the above post, I wanted to add that the Cranberry tube should still have been built, but connected to the Fulton El, similar to the way the IND took over the Culver Line in Brooklyn.
Of course the a big reason for the a lot of the redudancy of the IND was to destroy the BMT. I understand that, but wouldn't we be better off today if that was not the case.
Granted the Fulton Avenue Subway isnt packed 24 hours a day, but how is it a waste? Currently the express and local tracks are crammed every morning to Manhattan and crammed the way back.
How would the Atlantic Avenue el with just its local tracks handle the weight the Fulton subway does now?
6th Av between 14th and 57 I can see as a waste, cause Broadway is basically the same.
How would the Atlantic Avenue el with just its local tracks handle the weight the Fulton subway does now?
I think you misunderstood, I didn't mean the Atlantic Ave El. The Old Fulton Street El (not the LIRR ATlantic Ave Branch) that was rebuilt to dual contract standards was built similar to the Jamaica el with room for an express track in the middle.
The Old Fulton Street El (not the LIRR ATlantic Ave Branch) that was rebuilt to dual contract standards was built similar to the Jamaica el with room for an express track in the middle.
It actually had an express track east of Nostrand and ran express service.
Yeah, I thought it did. I think the old Fulton St el could have handled the load that the current Fulton St subway holds, especially if the old Roackaway branch was used for subway and connected to the Queens line. Is the part that was east of Nostrand Ave the part that was rebuilt? I know there was still part that was not rebuilt to dual contracr standards, but don't remember which part it was. The Cranberry tube would have had to be connected to the Fulton El somewhere between where the Atlantic Ave station is and Nostrand Ave, so it may not have been too much of the old el that needed to be rebuilt for the heavier trains.
One difference would be that one of the services that terminates at Continental Ave would have instead branched off at 63rd Drive and ran down the Rockaway branch, providing subway service to that part of Queens, and I feel better service to JFK, than the A train currently does. Think of how easy it would be to get to JFK by subway from the Queens Blvd corridor! The Roackaway Branch could also still have connected to where it does today to the remnant of the Fulton el at Liberty Ave. The Roackaway branch is four tracks at that point. The "Queens Blvd" portion of the Rockaway Branch could have run express to JFK, while the "Fulton Street el" service could pick up the local stations, similar to the way it runs today.
It's amazing how the "valuable" routing to JFK (the former Roackaway Branch) was allowed to rot.
I don't know how I spelled "Rockaway" wrong three times in that post, especially the same way....some kind of weird "slip" when I was typing fast...strange.
Is the part that was east of Nostrand Ave the part that was rebuilt? I know there was still part that was not rebuilt to dual contracr standards, but don't remember which part it was.
Yes, it was the part from Nostrand Avenue through to Pitkin Avenue that was rebuilt.
One difference would be that one of the services that terminates at Continental Ave would have instead branched off at 63rd Drive and ran down the Rockaway branch, providing subway service to that part of Queens, and I feel better service to JFK, than the A train currently does.
It would probably mean that a second Queens Line would be needed. No problem though - remember 6th Avenue is H&M and Fulton St is BMT.
Maybe I should start a what was built versus what should've been built:
What was built:
- 6th Avenue IND
- Fulton St IND
What should've been built
- 2nd Avenue IND
- 6th Avenue PATH to 57th St
- 2nd Queens Line - maybe BMT
- BMT Broadway Express to CPW Line
"What should've been built
- 2nd Avenue IND
- 6th Avenue PATH to 57th St <<<---- my idea
- 2nd Queens Line - maybe BMT
- BMT Broadway Express to CPW Line"
hhahahaah.. you took my idea...
N Broadway
hhahahaah.. you took my idea...
No haha's about it - it was a bloody good idea.
No haha's about it - it was a bloody good idea.
James: So was a boat ride on the Titanic....until it met the iceberg.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
No haha's about it - it was a bloody good idea.
James: So was a boat ride on the Titanic....until it met the iceberg.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
No haha's about it - it was a bloody good idea.
Question about rhetoric for you, James. Back when, it seems to me that the Briticism "bloody" was considered kind of rude. Now I hear it a lot--the new Harry Potter movie is full of "bloody" and at least one "Bloody Hell!"
Am I wrong that "bloody" was once bad language, and if so, has it gone the way of "suck" in the U.S., which was up there as an obscenity when I was a kid, but now seems to be a mere interjection?
Bloody used to be an extremely serious word. The blood in question was that of Jesus.
Bloody used to be an extremely serious word. The blood in question was that of Jesus.
It's not certain why "bloody" was/is an impolite word among the British. One school of thought says it's short for "God's (i.e. Jesus') blood," while others think it has something to do with a woman's period. There may be other possibilities as well, what matters is that the word's origins are basically lost to history.
"Bloody" is the kind of word you can say in front of your grandmother. Its etymology is unknown, although there are several theories ranging from the Holy Blood to a contraction of "By Our Lady" to something to do with menstruation. It last was seen as offensive in Britain in about 1840.
thanks! duuuuudddde!
N Bwy
Yea, it was a mistake because they put the BMT and the IND together and that was pure horsedung. The very idea of putting Mayor Hyland's revenge toy with my BMT was enough to make start howling.
At least the N remained a pure BMT route.
Only until 1976 when it went to Continental. And, prior to Chrystie, Brighton locals went there on weekdays after the 11th Street Cut opened.
Quite true.
and after that,4th avenue locals went there until 1967[RR trains]
When the EE took over.
One other item I wish to point out is the fact that I think the 6th Ave. IND express service in Manhattan to the Manhattan Bridge is SLOWER than the BMT express service now that I've had experience riding both the "Q" and the "W" trains between 42nd St. Times Square in Manhattan to the Manhattan Bridge. The BMT line is also convenient to the IRT 42nd St. shuttle. The 6th Ave. IND service has no direct connection to Times Square at 42nd St. This way I think that the IND service between Manhattan and Brooklyn stinks while the BMT service between the same two boroughs is much better.
#3 West End Jeff
Agreed, 6th Ave's connections stink.
But 6th Ave is a useful line if you work on 6th, 5th or even Madison in midtown, which a lot of people do. All the 6th Ave stations are well used in rush hour.
They really should have built it as a 5th Ave subway (but didn't for obvious reasons).
I agree. In fact, I prefer the way service over the Manhattan Bridge is now as opposed to how it was from 1989 to July 2001. When all bridge service ran via 6th Avenue and Broadway had only the N and the R, service really sucked. Yes, there was no other way to run service over the bridge, but Broadway is more conveinent for transfers to the IRT and it serves many popular destinations not just on weekdays, but weekends too. Sixth Avenue is heavily used on weekdays, but it tends to be quiet below 34th Street on weekends, and it was like that even before the bridge flip last summer.
I went to high school at Brooklyn tech from 1992-1996 and I can tell you that if all bridge trains went via Broadway then, my commute would have been significantly shorter. I would have definitely loved to have had Broadway-Manny B service while I in high school.
Well if the TA is hearing you there can be a solution to this mess. Get those damn 6th Avenue trains off the bridge and keep them in the tunnel. Let the Brighton, West End and Sea Beach use the bridge vis Broadway. It worked in the far distant past and it fan work again.
You're right. The 6th Ave. IND trains should have never been run over the Manhattan Bridge in the first place.
#3 West End Jeff
I don't know about that. Without the Christie Street connection, riders on the old BMT Southern Division, except for the Culver, would be almost completely isolated from the IND. Places like West 4th, Broadway-Lafayette and Grand Street would be hard to get to for these riders without a transfer. All three were popular stations before the bridge flip. Without the connection, southern division riders also can't get to Rockefeller Plaza or 42nd Street-6th Ave without a transfer. These stations sit at the heart of a corporate area in midtown. It would also be an epic adventure, a trilogy, trying to get 8th Ave service. Forgive me if I sound anti-purist here, but I believe the Christie connection helped.
Those served by the old Southern division of the BMT should also have easy access to Times Square in addition to Rockefeller Plaza.
#3 West End Jeff
No, you're making perfect sense. Only nostalgia and the totally seperate issue of the Manhattan bridge structural problems have been put forth to criticize this important, service improving connection.
I have one idea for the old BMT Southern division. Run some trains from each line over the Manhattan Bridge onto the 6th Ave. IND line in Manhattan and run others on the BMT line in Manhattan. This way BMT Southern division riders have a choice between using trains that run to Rockefeller Plaza or Times Square when they reach 42nd St.
#3 West End Jeff
"I have one idea for the old BMT Southern division. Run some trains from each line over the Manhattan Bridge onto the 6th Ave. IND line in Manhattan and run others on the BMT line in Manhattan."
Too much splintering for some lines.
The Sea Beach only needs about 7 or 8 trains per hour. If you send half each way neither gets reasonable service.
For Brighton it makes plenty of sense to send trains both ways.
Also, some trains have to go through the tunnel to Broadway, and some have to go to Nassau t, so you have 4 ways to split the trains. No way everybody can have every choice.
The Sea Beach only needs about 7 or 8 trains per hour. If you send half each way neither gets reasonable service.
Sea Beach riders need more than the 9 TPH they currently are getting. In fact, every southern division BMT line outside the M needs increased service.
I haven't seen (or done) any ridership counts, but my informal observations don't show a need for increased service on the N. Does anybody here have recent ridership figures? (NOT the station figures -- I'm talking about peak hour riding at the peak load point in each direction.)
If you don't, who would?
The subway schedulemakers might have it.
David
N service, as a whole, is inadequate. This is also based on my informal observations. 10 TPH would suffice IMHO.
Currently, there are 8 northbound N trains leaving DeKalb Avenue from 8 to 9 AM on weekdays. Going to 10 would be a 25% increase. Is that really necessary?
Currently, there are 7 southbound N trains leaving Queensboro Plaza from 8 to 9 AM on weekdays. Going to 10 would be a 43% increase. Is THAT really necessary?
David
Yes. As a bridge express, N ridership will increase when both sides open in 2004.
That assumes, of course, that
(a) a Sea Beach train will run via the Manhattan Bridge, and
(b) the service that does it is designated "N"
Neither of these is a certainty.
David
True, it's not on paper. But some things are safe to assume. The N will be a bridge train come 2004.
Yes David---that is what I say. And when I think of those guys at the TA I get less and less confident that it will ever happen.
But what started off this whole subthread was the proposal that all south Brooklyn lines go via both bridge routes. Even 10 tph isn't enough to justify sending half to Broadway and half to 6th Ave.
If all 4 bridge routes run at 10 TPH over the bridge, that means the number of express trains to midtown would increase from the current 27 TPH to 40. These increased number of trains will also run smoothly, as many current logjam inducing switchings will be eliminated. Despite what many keep saying, this service expansion is BADLY needed, especially on the overburdened Brighton line.
Chris, I love your optimism on this score. I just don't happen to believe it is warranted. I will believe it when I see the Sea Beach on the bridge and running as an express. I just hope you are right. Believe me, this is one sure time I WANT to be wrong.
Boy, you got that one right. And N service will never be adequate until three things happen. First, make it an express as it was intended from the get-go; second, get it out of that Montague rathole and back on the bridge; and three, make sure it goes to Stillwell when all the work is done. I could add a fourth like make the route 42nd Street to Coney Island, and let some other train take the rest of the route to Ditmars. The Sea Beach was never meant to go there and it seems offensive to me that it does.
I would also restore express service on the Sea Beach line to improve service from Manhattan to Coney Island
#3 West End Jeff
I would NOT. I would restore express service along 4th Avenue and Broadway for Sea Beach trains, but Sea Beach trains should still make all stops from 59th to Coney Island. Why should the passengers at the local stops lose trains just so a few empty ones should run from the station which I'm sure contributes the lowest number of passengers to the N?
Even if everyone from CI took the N, it still wouldn't justify it. You would still be screwing the majority for the benefit of the minority.
The one thing about competition is that it gives insentive to expand, provide/do better. Downside are certain at times petty/vindictive acts to knock the competitor, (in this case, doubling lines)
Could have expanded other areas like you said and eventually buy out the el. With a set up was like the Flushing or Jamaica Line, then yes, that was a waste, because the Fulton line does not need express tracks both directions. Sorry I misunderstood ur earlier post
My objection to the Christie Connection had always been that the Broadway and Astoria lines were decimated in favor of 6th Avenue and Jamaica.
Astoria lost its 2 Coney Island services (T, QB/QT), while Jamaica riders gained 2 Coney Island services (F,QJ).
If the QT had remained as the Brighton Local instead of the QJ, and the T had kept its route I may have lived with it. They should have sent to B down to 95th street - who needed that lousy RR anyway ;-)
For now - LONG LIVE the W!!! ;-)
"…IND Second system can be put in place with service being provided to the passengers who would use the Grand St. station, so that they would no longer have to deal with problems on the bridge? "
At one point, wasnt a connection from Grand Street to the Rutgers tunnel was suppose to be built?
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/2ndave/2ave-tr.gif
No. Those blue tracks are the Chrystie tracks. That map isn't supposed to be geographically accurate.
I can't believe there is no 42 Street station. Also, anyone know what the point of the two levels at Whitehall and Wall street are for and the center track at 14th Street?
Have they chosen this over a connection to the Nassau subway yet?
The center tracks at 14th and 125th Street were to have been for short turns.
The additional levels were because there wasn't enough capacity in a two-track stub terminal to terminate the 40 TPH they were proposing. There wasn't enough room for a ramp between Wall-Pine and Whitehall, so Wall-Pine had to get an extra level too.
Yesterday marked 34 years from the implementation of the last round of service changes resulting from the opening of the Chrystie St. connection. They were minor tweaks including:
The D swapped terminals in Brooklyn with the QB and QJ. D trains began terminating at Brighton Beach when running express in Brooklyn while QB and QJ trains went all the way to Coney Island. During nights and weekends, D trains continued on to Coney Island, at which time they ran local in Brooklyn.
I still have an original brochure which highlighted the changes effective July 1 and August 18.
That was my run ... scan it if you ever have time, I'd be interested since I worked it. And as you know, few of the R9's had Brighton B'ch on the bulkheads, but the 32's did.
I got out that 1968 pamphlet last night and from what I could tell the F and GG changes also too effect August 18. The GG began running to Church Ave. during rush hours and the F began running express between Jay St. and Church Ave. Rush hour F service was tweaked several times over the next several years, then finally reduced to peak direction-only between 18th Ave. and Kings Highway.
The D swapped terminals in Brooklyn with the QB and QJ. D trains began terminating at Brighton Beach when running express in Brooklyn while QB and QJ trains went all the way to Coney Island.
The switch was a bow to common sense. Originally they wanted the D to run to Coney full time, and this was the first time, since Franklin Expresses stopped running that you could get a Brighton Express to Coney Island. But they soon realized that the locals and expresses crossing in front of each other north of Brighton Beach was a bad idea.
Didn't need an expensive consultant study to tell them that!
I'm convinced that BoT bigwigs were dropping acid in 1966-7. The weird colors of the new 67 map, the positively mind-boggling dumb post Chrystie St service pattern. Did anyone think that the switching necessary for locals terminating at Brighton Beach might possibly affect service???
I actually found the color schemes and the spaghetti map VERY useful (and the front route signs MATCHED so you could tell from a distance when YOUR train was coming) ... all part of the "Holy Ronan Empire" and its "new directions" ... and if it inconvenienced a few crews, what the hey. But I think if ANYTHING made for interesting routing and jams, it had to be the NX train screwing up the put-ins trying to get up the railroad from Coney on whatever tracks were open, and of course with the NX going the "wrong way" it just made the checks a bit better. :)
From all eyewitness accounts, the NX crawled between Brighton Beach and Stillwell Ave. before hitting its stride on the Sea Beach express tracks.
The railroad was always a bit crowded south of Brighton Beach on the line, lots of things coming in and out, relaying, you name it. Ya gotta wonder WHAT they were smoking when the boobies hatched the NX. Fortunately it was long gone by the time I worked the railroad, but when things got REALLY screwed up on the Brighton, the old timers would say, "could be worse - you could have to work around an NX in the mix too." :)
Wouldn't it have been faster to take the D than the NX into midtown? Who thought people would actually go in the opposite direction to get to Manhattan?
Tune in, turn off, drop out.
Well, the NY Division is meeting this Friday (same place and time) on 19 July 2002.
Jeff Erlitz is presenting his slides of the New York City Subway from the 40's, 50's to the present. Plus the LIRR will be part of the show.
If you are in the New York City area, get some fresh air and met some real sub fans.
Phil Hom
Phil,
I've never been to one of those meetings. Where do they take place, and at what time? -Nick
Yeah. It would be nice to know.
St. John's University
101 Murray Street (between Greenwich & West Streets)
New York NY
2nd Floor (auditorium)
Doors open at 6:15 PM; meeting starts at 7:15 PM.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Be sure to look for David & Sid from NJ at the door. They along with a good number of SubTalkers can usually be found there.
Last month it was PCCs around the world ... for me a very enjoyable show put on by a BusTalker who also drives for LI Bus.
I am planning my vacation for the end of September... Maybe I'll be able to get in for the September Meeting.
: ) Elias
Speonk is one of the stations that I have never been at. I know from videos it used to be a platform split by a cross street with the station house on the east end of the platform next to the yard. Where is the platform now since elevation? Is it next to the station house east of the cross street, or on the west end? Was the yard redone to accomodate the new DE/DM's and trains, or is it still the same? Answers are appreciated.
The platform is still west of the road, east side of the road the station building still resides, with a fence separating it from the Speonk layup yard. Not much change other than the new station improvements.
Train Sim?
I'd have to say BVE, MSTS doesn't come close to the realism that BVE manages to do for free. Also there are some amazing tracks out there, several english and underground routes are among the most played on my PC. After that, I'd say Bahn 3.8, RR Tycoon II TSC, then Transport Tycoon Deluxe, then original RRT, then Maybe, provided nobody comes out with anything else, maybe MSTS.
Anyone else?
BTW, I'm trying to make an R44/46 for BVE, but I have found zero cab views, and since that's pretty much all you see in BVE, it's quite essential to the game. Does anyone know where I can find a cab view for an R44/46, and possibly technical data, like brake pressures and acceleration rates? I think I can check old Subtalk posts for the latter, but if anyone knows the official amounts it would be really helpful.
Thanks in advance
Saw on Eyewitness News at 11 car 9074 crowded with plenty of fish commuters. They were showing the condition(s) of the "Seabirds" that are under the sea. 9074 appeared to be spray painted on the bottom outside of the car.
Fishes will get plenty of more "Seabirds" to commute in very soon.
#9074 Atlantic Ocean Local
That's a shame. I hate to hear stories like that. So I guess it's true, with the new batch, they left the number plates on the cars. From BMWDoobieW's pictures of 207th street, they're already up to the World's Fair Redbirds from the "7". Haven't seen 9307 in a little while, which leads me to believe that one may already be over there.
Seems like just yesterday, those cars were replacing the Low-V's. Wonder if there's anything left of them at the bottom of the ocean?
Low-Vs were never dumped in the ocean, they were cut up for scrap.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was years ago, I just remember them being taken out of service. But I thought some SubTalker said he saw a bunch of them on a barge back in 1962?
They may have well been on a barge, but for shipment to whatever scrap dealer they arranged with. As far as I know Low-Vs weren't "reefed", this is a recent trend.
Peace,
ANDEE
Many of the Redbirds didn't have number plates before they ended service - they were just stickers ....
--Mark
I never saw any examples of that. But I believe you.
you probably have, and not known it, most (not really shure how many) redbirds have blank # plates, and 4 stickers placed on them which show the number. these look quite similar to normal #plates, so you must look closely to see if there are stickers
you probably have, and not known it, most (not really shure how many) redbirds have blank # plates, and 4 stickers placed on them which show the number. these look quite similar to normal #plates, so you must look closely to see if there are stickers
I've seen a few cars with the stickers peeling, so I know this is true.
Thanks for mentioning my photos :) I will try to go up there this weekend or early next week to see if the holding tracks have filled up with any more Seabirds.
Wait a minute, how long ago was 9074 sent seaworthy?
that should happen to the r-142 ...................!
Amen to that!
The Redbirds are technically IN the sea, in that they're within and surrounded by water.
UNDER the sea would be beneath the ocean floor, within and surrounded by solid rock (which is how most of the East River subway tunnels were built).
I think you're looking at the wrong number. I could swear that I just saw 9074-75 moments ago.... Looks alive and well to me.
-Stef
Not for much longer...shop has posters advertising scuba recon dives for $ 1.50. CI Peter
When the R142/142a orders are complete, there will still be about 300 Redbirds left, IIRC. The contract to replace them hasn't been awarded yet, so there should be a couple of years left for those cars. Are they going to be used on a particular route, or used in rush hour service only?
This is outdated data. The R-142 and R-142A orders have been modified such that they will now replace ALL of the Redbirds.
Well, I checked the MTA web site this morning, and looked at the capital projects list. This is identified as "Proposed Program of Projects Federal Fiscal Year 2003," for which there was a public hearing last month. There are two orders for A division cars listed. This first is:
"Purchase 320 Transit Cars: 'A' Division...The purchase of 320 new cars is required to complete the retirement of the 40 year old "Redbird" fleet. The cars will most likely be assigned to the Jerome and Pelham Maintenance Shops and will run on the #4 and #6 IRT Lexington Lines....The configuration of these new cars is based on the completion of a review of a performance and reliability demonstration test performed on the current New Technology Test Trains and on on-going contracts for 1,080 new 'A' Division Cars."
(I think the R142/142a contracts, even with options, are the 1,080 mentioned here.)
The second is: "Purchase 150 Transit Cars: 'A' Division.... This purchase will expand the 'A' Division fleet to provide additional service in response to increased ridership levels."
Nope...the R-142 and R-142A contracts consisted of 1,080 cars IN THE BASE ORDERS (680 R-142 + 400 R-142A).
The 470 cars mentioned are the options and a change order. They're already under contract, and, in fact, are already coming in.
David
well today guys was my appointment with the Metro North Railroad. so i took a X64 number 2870 (MCI) to Grand Central straight from my house. i loved that. best highlights of the day as far as railwise, i saw the M7 in person underneath the LIRR hillside facility. anyways i got off at 42nd and 3rd, got thru grand central and got into the MTA head building at 347 madison. wow that building got crazy security. the vistor pass i had even turned purple after i left the buildings. the interview was easy, all u had to do was tell Metro North what they wanna hear, but basically they know i can back up what i said, so they can count on me if they hire me. anyways after the interview i had to go into the MTA health department in the graybar building in GCT. anyways the physical test was pretty easy, because it was a simulated day of a trackworker. hardest parts were lifting the 50 pound track jack, walking and stepping over the 3rd rail with it, and what was the hardest was breaking apart a piece of rail by taking off all 4 nutz, bolts, and washers, and puttting them back together within 15 minutes.i took 11 minutes and i passed the exam, so hopefully i will be placed into the training class that takes place in august. i think i will be because she asked me to fax my high skool diploma to complete my file. now why would she need to make a file for me if she didnt plan on hiring me.........
Good luck to you, man!! :-)
THANK YOU! now all that is left is, the background check and they call me for a medical and im in! NO MORE MCDONALDS YAY!!!!
THANK YOU! now all that is left is, the background check and they call me for a medical and im in! NO MORE MCDONALDS YAY!!!!
Everyday is an AMAZING DAY at transit. It is not hard work, it is not difficult work, an ordinary day never exceeds eight hours, you go home not having to think about tomorrows possible assignments and every two weeks you get a big fat check with more deductions than you have teeth. MTA work is excellent work...the Best for you in your new career and God Bless. 'In the hole SPEAK ENGLISH!' CI Peter
LOL oh please like none of you use broken english. besides i live in a pretty Ghetto and im a young black man. so saying stuff like whats poppin is normal for people until at least 45!!!
I'm still 48 and have a really serious problem with 'skilled technical persons' that communicate in 'broken English.' Failing to understand just does not mean proper repair of a 'Train Trouble,' it means 'getting blasted to smithereens and meeting Our Maker.' Just one mistake will change your life forever...a fact I impart to my fellow crew members every opportunity. Having a trainset dumped static BIE isn't just a earache but a serious condition. Yesterday, suffering from heat prostration and working into my lunch time on a burned out electric portion pin, a twenty car R142 trainset was brought in for TTs. The T/O stopped at the block and dumped the trainset...so I climbed over the anticlimbers because of the distance walking around the PARKED trainset. Someone made the comment I transversed a moving trainset..it was dead on the trackage...and the CI responsible made no movement to let me know the T/O was going to cut a five car trainset. Lack of basic English communication skills..lack of English comprehension and transmission of technical situations...leads to injury and death. This isn't 'ghetto poppin' or 'yah mon Indie talkin' but really serious tech that protects each and every life everday. TA provides us with safety equipment...it is up to US to use it AND communicate situations of hazard to our fellow Car Inspectors. CI Peter
Great! I hope your railroad work is better than your English!
- Lyle Goldman
Good article about a study done by the APTA.
Public transit helps environment, study says
highlight:
"It also concludes that if one in 10 Americans used mass transit regularly, the national reliance on foreign oil could be cut by more than 40 percent.
If one in every seven Americans used public transportation for their daily travel, the study said, global warming would be reduced by cutting carbon monoxide emissions an equivalent of almost 20 percent of all emissions from fuel burned for residential use nationwide."
BTW, the "Georgians" for Better Transportation is a croc of shit association. Every member happens to be in the highway development and construction business.
Hmmm, I wonder if anyone in Washington can connect these dots ...war on terrorism...foreign oil...increased use of mass transit. Naaah, it's just too simple.
I think they're connecting the dots, but with motives and desires which differ from my own. I'd like to reduce our country's oil use so that we won't have to fight wars on terrorism. Meanwhile, those in power, with their ties to the oil industry, want to fight a war on terrorism so they can keep the status quo in place.
Mark
correct!
Not that simple! Not that simple!!! If you calculated some statistic like subway line mileage per head of population in NYC, you will see that it is not much higher than that in BOS, WAS, and other transit-oriented East Coast cities. However, the BOS transit system is much less usable than that in NYC. Why? It only has enough population to justify four (soon to be five) lines. It's called agglormation economies -- when many people live together, good things happen for all of them for the virtue of living together and sharing facilities (it's one of the reasons why I want to get married).
Unless suddenly you scooped up all the population in places like North Carolina, Indiana, Nebraska and dumped them all in a large city (let's call it Carolanaskapolis) and built a NYC-like transit system there, you will not see the step change that APTA is calling for.
Indeed, it will make NO economic sense to invest in the kind of step change that APTA is lobbying for. Current population density patterns are simply toooo sparse.
AEM7
You're definitely right in that transit alone can't solve the problem. In addition to better transit the cities and towns of the nation would have to be rebuilt in a more transit friendly manner, like that of Portland, Oregon, for example. But Portland shows that it can be done, even in cities that aren't as big as New York.
Mark
>> Naaah, it's just too simple. << NO, THEY ARE BOUGHT BY THE OIL CROOKS
Bought by oil crooks??? I don't think so. Most ARE the oil crooks. :-)
If one in every seven Americans used public transportation for their daily travel, the study said, global warming would... etc
Do you know what kind of mode split you would need for that kind of goal? I agree with the "croc of shit" that the goal is unrealistic.
The mode-split in the city of BOS for commuting is around 50%. Despite their efforts, that figure has never risen above 60% and is unlikely to in the near future. Mode split in NYC probably does not exceed 50% either. Many of you will claim that "everyone takes the subway to Manhattan", which is probably true, but the real issue is that NYC is more than just Manhattan and if you count Queens and the Bronx, that figure will drop.
Now, let's look at the kind of statistic we need. One in every seven Americans is about 12% of the population, or about 24 million regular transit riders every day. If you look at the BOS city population (not the Metro area), it is something like 500,000. If we include the heavily transit-oriented neighbouring cities of Cambridge, Somerville and Brookline, we get a combined population of some 1,000,000. Out of those, 50% choose to use transit for their work-related trips. In other words, BOS contributes 500,000 commuting transit riders.
Run the numbers for other transit-oriented cities, NYC with a metro-area population of 20,000,000 but a subway-covered population of just 5,000,000 will yield some 2,500,000 (50%) transit riders, etc., you will come up with a number close to 10,000,000 daily transit riders US-wide.
So where is the other 14,000,000 going to come from?
Don't forget, existing transit systems are built in cities with the highest density. So any expansion would have an effect of diminishing return, i.e. more capital is needed to lure another 10,000,000 than the total amount already invested in the existing transit systems nationwide.
America is too dispersed to contemplate any sort of mass-transit schemes like the ones the APTA is advocating. While I agree it is a worthwhile goal to increase public transit ridership through reinvestment in existing systems and construction of new systems, it is simply unrealistic to expect to wean the country off foregin oil this way. The only real solution to this "problem" is if oil became more expensive -- not through taxation, but through scarcity. When that happens in 2050, or if the U.S. lose the war on terrorism, then we might see more public transit use and less dependence on foregin oil.
AEM7
"America is too dispersed to contemplate any sort of mass-transit schemes like the ones the APTA is advocating."
That's taking the present situation -- which isn't even entirely correct -- and simply presuming it's a basic, unalterable, natural truth.
People said -- the likes of Wendell Cox still say -- that nobody would ride transit in Western cities. "Americans love their cars" "Texans [or Californians, or Coloradans, or etcetera] are too addicted to cars to ever ride transit." "A Texan's very identity is in a cowboy hat and pickup truck, you'll never get one on a train." But cities like Saint Louis and Dallas and Denver and Salt Lake City and Sacramento and San Diego have built light rail lines. Hell, LOS ANGELES has built a rail transit system, and people said Angelenos would be the last people on Earth to ride transit. All the systems named (yes, ALL of them) are in the midst of expanding their systems because neighborhoods and towns not on the present system, some which opposed light rail initially, are now screaming to be added to the service. More to the point, they all have FULL park-and-ride lots, concrete evidence disproving the anti-light-rail myths that (1) once a person has a car, they won't make trips by transit and (2) light rail simply diverts passengers from the existing bus system.
No, these lines don't have the ridership of the Lexington Line, or Chicago's Blue Line, or DC's Red Line. They aren't expected to, because they're lighter capacity systems for lighter density cities. And they haven't resulted in many people completely giving up their cars. Again, they weren't expected to. The goal in such cities is to provide an alternative for individual trips to the denser parts of the city or metro area. This shouldn't be unfamiliar -- most commuter rail riders in New York or Chicago or Boston have cars, and use their cars, but also use transit for trips (work and play) into the city.
People also have said that the "American Dream" is a detached house with two-car garage on a large lot, and that Americans wouldn't accept denser housing. So how come old warehouse and industrial districts and rail yards near downtowns are being converted to lofts and townhouses all over the country? Not just in Chicago, where new construction and conversions in the city have been strong and steady for almost a decade now, not just in the Bostons and New Yorks, but in newer, smaller, cities like Dallas and Minneapolis and Portland. Yes, many Americans DO want to live in detached houses on large lots, but many don't. (Mowing lawns, hiring tradesmen for repairs, etc.!) Where clean, well-built alternatives like townhomes, lofts, new condos, etc. in vibrant urban neighborhoods have been offered to the public, they've sold well and grown. Until the last decade or so, outside the big cities developers offered pretty much only detached houses, so that's what people bought. This was reinforced before the creation of the condo by the fact that houses could get mortgages (and government mortgage guarantees!) while multi-family dwellings were pretty much all rentals and no financial assistance was available. Once condos allowed mortgage loans on non-detached housing, and a few innovative developers thought outside the picket fence by offering alternatives that sold out, it became evident that "people only want detached houses on large lots, let's build only detached houses on large lots" is a self-fulfilling prophecy and not truth handed down by the gods.
There aren't just two extremes of housing density, Manhattan or the Chicago lakefront on one side and the house on a one-acre lot on the other. Much of Chicago is single-family houses, but on small (30 X 125, IIRC) lots. There are three-flat apartment buildings and four or five story condos. Old warehouses and new rowhouses create viable medium density neighborhoods.
Are we just going to say that America is too dispersed to support transit and throw up are hands in defeat? Or are we going to realize that changes that have already happened and are still happening in cities across the nation prove that such a sentiment is a "sacred cow" amenable to change, not a sacred truth that cannot be changed.
Are we just going to say that America is too dispersed to support transit and throw up are hands in defeat?
That's not throwing up our hands in "defeat". And anyway it's not a "defeat". Automobiles and transits have to work together. Both are modes of transportation, complementary and not (usually) competitive.
Light rail is pretty much pointless unless it has heavy-rail attributes such as dedicated right-of-way, and off-vehicle fare collection. To support that sort of capital costs you need to have a pretty dense corridor. When you have a dense corridor, the congestion costs of using automobiles also go up, therefore the case for transit looks really good.
Without such heavy-rail like attributes, and without being situated in a dense corridor, building a light rail will result in waste of resources since the energy cost of powering the light rail will exceed the energy cost of the VMT reduction achieved.
Much of what I just said is not backed up by hard research, and there will be exceptions. However, in general, the niche for light rail is so small that it really does become an either-or proposition. Your examples of Portland and Salt Lake are the exceptions. When proposing future strategy, we should not rely exceptions occuring every place but should understand that in most places the optimal solution is to create the kind of land-use pattern that will support high-density transit. That sort of scheme will have way more impact on VMT and congestion costs than half-assed, let's build a light rail here and there type schemes.
we...should understand that in most places the optimal solution is to create the kind of land-use pattern that will support high-density transit.
AMEN!
Mark
Even if the 1 in 7 statistic is unrealistic, it goes to show how efficent transit is. If 14% of the population used transit, that's a 40% decrease in oil use.
>>> Don't forget, existing transit systems are built in cities with the highest density. So any expansion would have an effect of diminishing return, i.e. more capital is needed to lure another 10,000,000 than the total amount already invested in the existing transit systems nationwide. <<<
Did you read a different article than I did? You seem to be interpreting "public transportation" to be only rail transit. The article I read was about all forms of public transportation, which extends far beyond the largest cities in this country.
Tom
...The article I read was about all forms of public transportation, which extends far beyond the largest cities in this country.
Do you seriously think that by starting bus systems like TARTA (Toledo Area Rapid Transit) or COTA (Central Ohio Transit Authority) you're going to get any serious mode-shift?
Let's pick on TARTA. I'm willing to bet you money that their mode share within the city is less than 5%. How do I know that? TARTA operates about 30 routes mostly on 1/2 hour headways with 35-footer GM buses, all of them within the city limits. Rush hour seating capacity is therefore 50 pax/bus * 2 buses/route/rush-hour * 30 routes = 3,000 pax per rush-hour.
Toledo City has a population of about 300,000. Assuming that 200,000 of those people need to get to work every day, the mode split is... oooooh, 1.5%.
Now try to tell me that people will ride transit if you just put more buses on. There is a reason why TARTA is running 1/2 hourly headways and not 1/4 hourly.
AEM7
>>> Now try to tell me that people will ride transit if you just put more buses on. <<<
Again we must have been reading different articles. The one I read pointed to the savings that could be achieved if there were greater use of public transportation. It did not make any suggestions as to how to increase the percentage of people using public transportation, in Toledo, or any other place, and it certainly did not advocate increasing bus fleets to accomplish this.
Public transportation will not increase in this country as long as there is no political will to coerce people out of their cars. The reason so many people use public transportation into Manhattan is the lack of a place to economically leave the car in Manhattan. Here in Los Angeles I can find all day parking in downtown for $1.50, and many employers provide free parking. It should be no surprise that I prefer driving to taking public transportation under those conditions.
As long as traveling in one's own private car is more comfortable than traveling on public transportation (and even transit advocates will usually admit that), just increasing the amount of available public transportation will not move many commuters out of their cars and into public transportation.
Tom
The one I read pointed to the savings that could be achieved if there were greater use of public transportation.
My comment, posted in relation to Rob from Atlanta's assertation that the Georgians for Better Transportation is talking bullshit, was to point out that APTA is indeed unrealistic and that Georgians for Better Transportation are correct in their analysis. I stand by my analysis, which suggests that either by increasing buses or by building new light rail will not achieve the kind of goals outlined in the article.
Here in Los Angeles I can find all day parking in downtown for $1.50, and many employers provide free parking. It should be no surprise that I prefer driving to taking public transportation under those conditions.
Right. And why should we try to change that? Obviously, if Los Angeles is not suffering from ill-effects of non-economical land use, there is no reason why we should encourage people to use transit. It's not possible to significantly change the structure of LA, at least in the short term. The cost of new, higher-density buildings amortized over a reasonable investment pay-back period is way greater than equivalent congestion/environmental costs incurred during that period.
Hence, there are little economic reasons to encourage public transit use.
If you can find all day parking for $1.50, obviously all day parking can be provided for less than $1.50. If that is the case, there is no reason why you shouldn't park all day for $1.50. You're paying your true opportunity cost of the land used.
I would be the first one to agree that highway users should be charged the true costs of the use of the highway, but I see no reason to subsidize public transportation or delibrately change land-use patterns through zoning laws or other means to try to alter the balance.
AEM7
ah the dismal "science" Some of us believe that non-polluted air, and some aesthetic considerations are a hard to monetarize and b far better reasons for public policy than current stupid economic policies. Encouraging car use has detrimental effects both locally and planet wide (global warming anyone?) Plus, using public transit has some serious social advantages--throwing people together who might otherwise never meet. Can you quantify that value in the transit fare or the parking fee?
Plus, using public transit has some serious social advantages--throwing people together who might otherwise never meet. Can you quantify that value in the transit fare or the parking fee?
Actually, yes. I'd be the first one to believe that meeting people on the train/subway is great fun. Sometimes, I would choose to take the train instead of flying because of the possibility of meeting interesting people. There, I have exercised economic judgment; even though it may be cheaper or faster to fly, I chose to take the train because of the value-added of the social functions.
My belief is that public transportation does not need to be "encouraged" per se; it will happen by itself if there are enough people like me, who prefer to ride the train for all its social benefits. Most of those social benefits can be internalized; those ones which aren't can be charged against (e.g. congestion and pollution could be billed to highway users through mileage tax or fuel tax). Obviously, creating high-density housing that will encourage transit use is a good thing, but I don't believe in delibrately pumping money into the system to persuade people to do things they otherwise wouldn't. The trick about planning is to do it BEFORE you build it and not to pay people to use a shitty product AFTER you build it.
AEM7
You're definitely right in tha transit use alone can't solve the problem. Transit needs to be but one part of a larger vision of what our cities and towns should be.
Mark
I never said that the GFBT were taling bullshit. I was letting everyone know that this organization is very biased towards road building for the reasons I stated in the first post.
For example, there is this proposed highway for north Atlanta called the Northern Arc. This road came into being by elected and other state officals who own property along the route who would make a cool profit from it if it were built. The public has been overwelmingly aganist it, there's even a group who ready to file a lawsuit aganist it (which I fully support). The GFBT came out with a poll that said that something like 70% of the public is in favor of the Arc. It was later discovered that the survey had only one question pretaining to the Arc, and the question was, "Do you support the need for better east-west access in north Atlanta?" With anything transport related, you have to take anything they say with a grain of salt.
"Run the numbers for other transit-oriented cities, NYC with a metro-area population of 20,000,000 but a subway-covered population of just 5,000,000 will yield some 2,500,000 (50%) transit riders, etc., you will come up with a number close to 10,000,000 daily transit riders US-wide."
If you include commuter railroads, PATH, Amtrak ridership through Penn Station and both public and DOT-contractor buses, the daily ridership in New York actually is easily over 7 million and actually approaches 8 million per day.
Your points about travel in Queens etc. are well-taken, in that use of mass transit to complete those trips has a lower % than the "core commute" - but it is not as low as you seem to imply.
Consider:
Commuting centers (high density commercial real-estate) have developed in Jamaica and MetroTech Brooklyn (actually, the latter was there for some time). The percentage of folks commuting to work in Brooklyn who rely on mass transit will not be much lower than those going to Manhattan. Jamaica's commercial center has, thanks to the Archer Avenue line, an incentive to do that as well. With the opening of AirTrain, more airport and airline employees will be using mass transit to get to their jobs too.
New York is unique in its massive mass transit infrastructure. But it and Washington have shown that both absolute and % ridership will climb given appropriate investments.
1 in 7 seems unrealistic to hope for. So where would you set the goal?
1 in 7 seems unrealistic to hope for. So where would you set the goal?
I don't know that I would set a goal. If I had to address this issue, this is what I would recommend:
(1) Change the cost of using an automobile into a variable cost through reforms in gas tax, tolling the roads, and mandating mileage-based variable-cost insurance. Allow transits to become privately-funded through user fees, and let profitability decide the mode split.
If (1) is not feasible, then we try (2):
(2) Redraw the city streets -- on all roads with more than one lane in each direction, set aside a dedicated lane for transit, emergency vehicles, and small truck use. Again, transits will be privately-funded through user fees in most cases.
If (2) is not feasible, then we try (3):
(3) Forget the whole thing, just throw as much money at mass transit as there is political will, regardless of its cost-effectiveness.
AEM7
"Allow transits to become privately-funded through user fees, and let profitability decide the mode split."
"just throw as much money at mass transit as there is political will, regardless of its cost-effectiveness."
You're confusing two issues. Cost effectiveness and profitability are not synonyms, and mass transit's cost-effectiveness cannot currently be measured by profitability.
Your first option actually sounds reasonable. But if it cannot be accomplished it will be because of political (not economically rational) resistance by automobile advocates who are playing on a field tilted heavily in their favor.
Increasing investments in mass transit does not ignore cost-effectiveness - it merely tries to level the playing field between the automobile and the mass transit system.
You're confusing two issues. Cost effectiveness and profitability are not synonyms, and mass transit's cost-effectiveness cannot currently be measured by profitability.
I am not. Alternatives (1) and (2) actually makes economic sense, whilst alternative (3) is the one most transit lobbiests would take. I am prepared to take the transit lobby line if the highway lobby is not prepared to be reasonable about their own costs. The transit lobby says: we don't care how much it costs to build and operate the system; if there is money left in the budget, we will build it. The highway advocates build highways based pretty much on the same principle. For me, there is no point being rational about transit if the highway lobby isn't being rational with regards to its investment decision criteria.
AEM7
Your bottom line is reasonable.
IF NYC transit would raise fairs in order to be profitable.
NYC would loose millions of dollars in lost tax revenues because traffic would be so bad that business would not be able to operate.
A good example is the city of Denver. Traffic over the last few years has gotten so bad that it is difficult to justify any new office building downtown because it is too hard to get to them
An example close to home is Staten Island. In the early 90's it took 20 minutes to go from one side of the island to the other mid day. It takes hours now
Our great public transit system is what allows the desity of Manhattan. Only if the politicains would not focus so much on how to pack more poor into the city and focus on how to make the city more friendly to working class and middle clas new yorkers. Our city would be tremdously better. A $0.50 raise to a person making 100k a year is will not deter that person from visiting the big appple but will deter a working class family from coming into the city to shop. A family of 4 thats an extra $4 round trip.
America is too dispersed to contemplate any sort of mass-transit schemes like the ones the APTA is advocating. While I agree it is a worthwhile goal to increase public transit ridership through reinvestment in existing systems and construction of new systems, it is simply unrealistic to expect to wean the country off foregin oil this way. The only real solution to this "problem" is if oil became more expensive -- not through taxation, but through scarcity. When that happens in 2050, or if the U.S. lose the war on terrorism, then we might see more public transit use and less dependence on foregin oil.
I certainly agree with your assessment of the APTA report. To expand on something I noted in another recent post, setting unrealistic, lofty goals for transit use will just lead to disappointment and, worse, cynicism. If incremental increases in transit use are all that can be expected, for reasons I noted in the other post, well, let's be happy with small gains. Heck, at least transit use probably isn't declining.
Of course, this isn't to say that Americans can count on a steady flow of (relatively) cheap foreign oil into the distant future. While other nations such as Russia are contributing an increasingly large share of U.S. imports, the unfortunate fact remains that Saudi Arabia has by far the world's largest (and easiest to recover) petroleum reserves. It's also said to set world prices due to some machinations of the oil market, though I'm not sure if I quite grasp why that's the case.
At any rate, a serious disruption in Saudi exports would send oil prices skyrocketing. Some economists claim that a complete shutoff of Saudi oil would slice two full percentage points off U.S. GDP for at least two calendar quarters. And it should go without saying that Saudi Arabia is extremely unstable, thanks to a variety of reasons including its rabbit-like, utterly irresponsible rate of population growth. Should the House of Saud fall, America's McMansions-and-office-parks development patterns will look really bad. What can be done about this, I just don't know, but I wouldn't entirely rule out a U.S. military seizure of the Saudi oil fields. We'll undoubtedly find out soon enough.
Today we look at stupid civilian tricks.
All too frequently people take the dangers of being around railroad tracks and moving trains for granted. Other times they are just totally oblivious to these very dangers. These folks must have that "nothing bad can happen to me" attitude when around the tracks. I say this with confidence as I have observed first hand and have been told first hand accounts of such civilians performing incredible feats of stupidity on railroad property.
While working at the Indiana Harbor Belt, I was driving into work late one morning. En route I was caught by a Grand Trunk Western eastbound as it passed through Griffith, IN. I was sitting patiently waiting as he rolled through town at a reduced speed. From my position about three or four cars behind the gates I was keeping the ever watchful eye. This is a habit from work as I am looking for defects. Over the years, I have spotted problems on passing trains while waiting at crossings and contacted the railroad involved. I reported the problem to them making sure they know I am a railroader. This way they understand I’m not just some crackpot with nothing better to do with his life.
But I digress.
Anyway, as I watched this train pass, I noticed a boxcar with its doors open and observed two people inside the car. They appeared to be rather young; certainly not the run of the mill hobos. And one of them was a female. I reached for the phone and immediately called Blue Island Tower. The number was listed in the IHB timetable so I had it close by. The Operator there would be able to contact the GTW Dispatcher on the wire and report this find. The Dispatcher would then contact the train via radio and it goes from there. I told Blue Island who I was, where I was located and what I saw. In turn, the Operator reported my discovery to TD-4, the GTW Dispatcher. The train was contacted and stopped with the police summoned.
I later learned these kids were about fourteen years old and runaways. I was told they had virtually no money, no spare clothing or any supplies. Perhaps I saved their lives.
While at the Wisconsin Central I had several episodes involving cars parked too close to the tracks.
The first event took place in Franklin Park, IL in 1988. We were approaching Schiller Park en route from Clearing Yard to Fond du Lac. As we approached Tower B-12 where the Soo Line and Metra crossed our line we had to pass a US Postal Service sorting center. There were always stragglers showing up at the last minute for work there. They would park their cars and make a mad dash for the facility. Oftentimes they parked on a strip of property that belonged to the railroad instead of the postal employee parking lot as the railroad property was much closer to the facility.
This particular evening had a postal employee parking on railroad property. Only in his rush to get to work on time he parked a little too close to the tracks. We came along and clipped the front of his car. When the police arrived the cop laughed and told me the guy who owned this car was really in for a treat. His car would be towed for illegal parking. He would then have to pay a fine up front to get the car along with the towing charge and a storage fee. And then when he gets the car he’ll find the front end damaged. The cop also told me this was not the first time a vehicle had been struck here. Several cars and small trucks parked too close had also been hit. One would think these folks just might have learned from the first few episodes involving their fellow employees. They cannot figure out how to park and then they go and sort our mail. I guess this explains a great deal on how our mail gets lost.
The next episode occurred one Saturday afternoon a couple years later. We were going to make a run from Fond du Lac to Schiller Park, swap trains there and head back to Fond du Lac. We had just departed Shops Yard in North Fond du Lac and were proceeding through downtown Fond du Lac. As the train rounded a curve we came upon a car parked close to the tracks. I realized the car didn’t clear and immediately put the train into emergency. As I closed in on it, I noticed somebody sitting in the car. We sideswiped the car as we came along side it. I contacted the Yardmaster telling him of our plight and to contact the emergency response people.
The Conductor headed back and reported no injuries to the person sitting in the car, a young boy. The kid was laughing thinking this was like a movie. The owner of the car came out from the motorcycle shop across the tracks from where the car was parked. He was also laughing as he assumed (and you all know what happens when you assume) that because we clobbered his car, the railroad would automatically buy him a new one. However, his assumptions were slightly askew of reality.
A police officer investigating the collision boarded the engine to get my statement. I asked this officer if he was issuing a ticket for illegal parking to the motorist. He questioned me as to why I thought this guy was illegally parked. I explained "I hit him didn’t I?" Again he asked why I thought this guy was illegally parked and again I answered, "I hit him didn’t I?" Then I invited this officer over to my side of the cab. I showed him the absence of a steering wheel or foot pedals like a Caterpillar tractor for turning. I had him look out the window at the rails in front of me and explained how I operate on a fixed guide way and cannot steer or swerve to avoid collisions. To see the look on his face as I explained this, one would think I was speaking Greek or something.
Once again I asked about the ticket and he asked me if I was telling him how to do his job. I responded "Ya, I guess I am cuz you don’t seem to be doing it too well." I’m sure I made lots of point with that remark.
When all was said and done, not only did the guy not a get a new car out of the deal, the railroad sent a bill to his insurance company for the damages to the engine.
Construction people can also be out to lunch when it comes to common sense around railroad right of ways. On more than one occasion there have been mishaps involving construction crews and trains.
While at the MoPac I heard an episode reported on the radio. A northbound came around the curve in Crete, IL and encountered a backhoe working near the tracks. Apparently it was a little too near as the engine hit the machine knocking it to the side. The operator saw the train at the last moment and jumped. I heard later the contractor only planned on being near the right of way for a short period and figured he could get by without a flagman from the railroad and its cost. He was wrong.
In 1999 the CNIC had a tie gang replacing ties on the Chicago Sub. A private contractor was hired to remove the old ties. This contractor was working just north of North Rantoul gathering up, sorting and banding the discarded ties. They were using a machine called a Bobcat to assist them. A Bobcat is a small, rubber tired front end loader that can easily and quickly be converted to a forklift or dozer. The machine operator was not paying close attention to what he was doing and backed into the path of the rapidly approaching Amtrak train 58, the City of New Orleans. The people train struck the Bobcat flipping it over and causing some damage to the locomotive. The train had to be backed up to Rantoul and into the siding there and receive some repairs before the train could proceed. Fortunately for the operator, he only received minor injuries.
In 2000 I had an episode with a paving contractor. We were approaching Dralle Road which is the next road crossing south of Steunkel Road on the Chicago Sub. As we were closing in I noticed an asphalt paving machine with a semi-dump truck adjoining it. They were laying asphalt and rolled right onto the crossing I was approaching. I put the train into emergency and stopped less than a quarter mile from the crossing. While I never want to collide with anything, I really don’t want to collide with a dump truck loaded with hot asphalt. They didn’t seem the least bit phased by what could have just happened and kept on paving. The Chicago South Dispatcher was contacted and we told her of the situation. She told of having no information or authority allowing for this contractor to be there. As soon as this equipment was clear of the crossing, I began to move north again. There was a laborer at the crossing waving a flag at me indicating he wanted me to stop. Fat chance buddy boy, you are on my turf.
They waited as we crossed and the operator of the paver waved at me as we passed. I gave him the single finger salute in return. His expression changed and he began to scream at me but needless to say, I could not hear him. Nor did I really care what he had to say. The CN police were dispatched to the scene. Word was this was not the first time this contractor had encroached upon this crossing while performing their work without a railroad flagman to protect them. Good way to get your people or railroad employees hurt or killed.
Contractors are not the only professionals that fail to use good judgment. Public servants can also fall into this category. Back in 1980 I was dating a girl whose brother was a Fireman for what was then Park Forest South. Today this town is known as University Park. Anyway, this guy asks me about who would be responsible if a train ran over their hoses. I explained to him it depended upon the situation. If the fire department notified the railroad of needing to block the tracks with their hoses and requesting they stop train traffic, it could be the railroad's responsibility. If they neglected to contact the railroad, the fire department would then be responsible for their own hoses.
I questioned him as to what this was all about. He went on to tell me of a large brush fire near the Illinois Central Gulf tracks in Park Forest South. The PFS Fire Department responded. They had to stretch their hoses across the tracks in order to reach the fire as the trucks could not get close to the location of the fire from the road. Nobody from his fire department contacted the railroad of the situation as somebody suggested the trains would just stop when they saw the fire trucks and flashing lights. Once again, it was a serious error in judgment. Soon after the hoses went across the tracks a train came along running them all over. Like so many other objects, the hoses were no match and wound up getting destroyed by the train. DOH!
Over the years I have witnessed numerous pedestrians who fail to realize the magnitude of their actions could likely get them killed or maimed for life. One Sunday afternoon I was heading south on a loaded grain train. As we rolled through Kankakee, some moron decides to play chicken with me at a crossing. Only he doesn’t just stand like the idiot he was, he breaks into jumping jacks. So there he is performing some calisthenics on the crossing as I approached him with my 13,000 plus ton train. I just lay on the whistle as he attempted to whip himself into good physical shape. Now with just one slip he will become the healthiest dead guy around.
I continued to sound the whistle as we rapidly closed in on him. Even though we were only going 30 MPH, that distance still closes up rather quickly. I was in full dynamic braking to hold my train speed at 30 (the speed limit for freight trains through this area) as we rolled down the hill and into downtown Kankakee. In the manner in which I was using it, the dynamic was keeping us at a steady speed but not slowing us down. At the very last moment this yahoo jumped aside. The Conductor stuck his head out the window and shouted at him making references to his mother.
Numerous times I have observed a mother or father out walking with their children and approaching a crossing as we are. Instead of teaching their children well, these folks whom their children look up to and depend upon make the mad dash to get across the tracks before we get there. I have witnessed mothers literally pick up a child by one arm and sort of flip them across as they follow. In one situation, a young mother was pushing a stroller and dragging along a toddler. In this case the stroller hung up on the rail and flipped over with the little one inside falling out but landing clear of the tracks and crossing. In the meantime, she yanked the other one by his arm and pulled him across and then pulled the stroller clear. As we passed she simply put the little one back in the stroller and proceeded as if nothing happened.
I’m sure this really made a long lasting wrong impression on the toddler. The little one in the stroller very likely had no idea as to what had just happened. People like this should be prohibited from procreating. The offspring they have created should be forcibly removed from these people’s care immediately. The genes of these so-called parents and adults need to be removed from the pool.
Probably one of the strangest episodes occurred while I worked at the MoPac. A Trainmaster riding with us one evening in 1982 told us the following story. A few weeks prior to this night, a northbound Louisville & Nashville coal train was operating on the Chicago & Western Indiana tracks and passing through Roseland, a community in Chicago. For those of you not familiar with the C&WI, it was a jointly owned operation with MoPac and L&N as two of the five owners. The train struck a woman who ran up to the tracks and lay down on the rails in front of them. The Engineer put the train into emergency and notified all the necessary people. This event was being investigated by the police and this very Trainmaster from Yard Center who had been summoned to the scene.
In the meantime a couple of guys in another part of Roseland decided they needed some cash rather quickly. They determined the best way to reap a financial reward in the quickest manner possible with the least amount of effort put forth was to knock over a liquor store. So they initiated their plan. Unfortunately for them, they didn’t plan on the Chicago Police being right there. Ill gotten gain in hand, these two characters took off in their car. The cops gave chase with it quickly becoming one of those high speed affairs like in the movies and on TV. These two cats had no intention of getting caught.
In their efforts to avoid capture and its potential of making them guests of the Governor, these characters drove like maniacs. Unfortunately these two were unaware of the suicide situation in their community. And likewise, the fact this stopped coal train had many of the crossings blocked including any intended getaway route they might consider using. Their continuing efforts to flee the cops had them taking a turn down a road which was blocked by the stopped coal train. In their haste to evade law enforcement, this pair apparently failed to make note of the flashing red lights and the reflection of the Scotchlite striping on the gate lowered across the road in front of them. And it is pretty certain they did not observe the stopped train stretched out on the crossing in front of them.
"A stopped train is a safe train." This is a tongue and cheek phrase commonly heard on the railroad. However, like everything else in life there are exceptions to prove every rule.
The police told the MoPac Trainmaster the car was traveling in excess of 100 MPH when it crashed through the lowered gate and plowed into the side of the stopped coal train. I would guess these two perpetrators quickly learned the following lesson; a two-thousand pound automobile is absolutely no match for a 130 ton load of coal. Unfortunately for them though, it was a lesson learned far too late. Their new found knowledge was also lost to short attention span syndrome as both of them were decapitated in the collision with the railcar. Can you say, "Justice was served?" Or should it just be considered "poetic justice?" In any event, their final act of defiance saved the system money and time and also reduced the overload in the criminal court system.
And so it goes.
Unca Steve 'TrainDude' is a really good guy that sometimes misses skills and background of posters. He busted my chops a number of times and inadvertandly made me into the best Car Inspector I could possibly become...then he found out who I am and got a hint of why I do my work. I hope he gets to read your posting and recognises your experience. It's us 'whackos' that do the work and MAKE TRAINS GO, the schlubs just clock their timecard everyday, leaving the serious work to serious workers. Our personal opinions do not necessarily reflect out work ethics. CI peter
With the R142A on the #4, is there any chance one of the automated announcements will be "This is Derek Jeter of the New York Yankees, the next stop is Yankee Stadium." -Nick
Please, don't give them any ideas. Those "celebrity annoucements" in the yellow cabs are annoying enough. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey! I finally heard Paul O'Neill's message when I got into a taxi on the last day of 2001. It made me very happy, especially since I knew I wouldn't see him in right field anymore.
A Yankee message would be fun. I've been on trains were that conductor "guaranteed" a win against the Mets during Interleague. The occasional "Let's Go Yankees" chant started by passengers is another hightlight.
Gee, I haven't hacked in NYC since Dec '81 just before I joined the Police Dept. They have recorded announcements in the cabs now? What are they about?
For, a number of years they have had these "public service announcements" with stars such as Joan Rivers, Joey Reynolds maybe Jerry Stiller and others reminding you to "buckle up", "don't forget your personal belongings" etc,. They tend to be pretty lame, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Do we have to mention the Yankees at all? I get sick just hearing about them. My youthful disdain of them has never left, so much, in fact, that I prize as one of my great possessions, "The Yankee Haters Handbook".
we have a guy at work you'd just LOVE
... I prize as one of my great possessions, "The Yankee Haters Handbook".
See, Fred, your blood really DOES run Confederate gray!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh $%^#@, I had a feeling you or someone else would come out with something like that. Come on now, when the War of the Rebellion is on the stove, then and only then do I claim to be a Yankee. I make no connection between the baseball bunch and the glorious boys in blue who hammered those traitorous rats into submission. Have a great weekend. My wife is a direct descendent of Robert E. Lee, so my daughter has some Confederate blood. I think I told you that. But I am a Yankee in that regard.
Hey, hey, hey...Fred. Cleanairbus here...watch it, I'm a Yank fan for a long time...u don't wanna hate me...I like ya a lot, I don't wanna have to... (lol)
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Woodlawn-Bound 4 train"
I didn't say Yankee fans==just the Yankees. I like you too. We can still be friends and not like the same team.
Fair enough, Fred...
I may have misunderstood the post, that's pbb why I went off a bit...sorry :-(
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"R142A #7661 on the (4)"
Fred, you might like this site, Yanks-Suck.com, you can even buy Yankees suck shirts and jerseys. BTW, how are the Mets doing? They are go far behind the Braves, you Mets fans probably can't count that high :-)
Sorry Fred, I didn't name the thread. I eliminated the Yankees from the title now though.
Peace,
ANDEE
More of a warning for guys/gals in the area who are going somewhere this weekend. This is because of switch work north of 36 St. on the northbound tracks on the 4th Ave. line.
W-Stillwell to 9 Ave. Trains to relay at 38 St. yard. Shuttle bus from 9 Ave. to 36 St.
N-Southbound normal. Northbound, continue southbound from Kings Highway thru Stillwell (4tk.) and up the Brighton line, express stops to Dekalb. Big loop. Q to use 3 tk. at Stillwell.
R-3 sections.
-Continental Ave. to 36 St. Express from 36 St. to Pacific in both directions.
-Shuttle F2 tk. (northbound local tk.) 25 St. to Pacific, making stops northbound only. Train to run lite southbound back to 25 St. returning from Pacific (wrong rail.)
-Shuttle 95 St. to 59 St. Shuttle bus from 59 St. to 36 St. in the northbound direction only.
Good Luck!
Yep, looks like another crazy weekend on the good ol' rails of NYCT. Then again I haven't worked one weekend where things weren't crazy!! LOL :-) But in fairness to NYCT, the people have to realize this is almost a century old system with almost 900 miles of track and many thousands of miles of electric and signal cable, and runs 24/7/365.....no rest periods or shutdowns......YOU CAN'T MAINTAIN IT ALL AT ONE TIME IN ONE NIGHT!! The work has to be done sometime, and for years people say NYCT doesn't do enough to maintain the system, yet they complain when NYCT does work to maintain things. You can't have things both ways. I would rather be inconvenienced for a weekend rather then have something go terribly wrong and cost people lives. The pro outweigh the cons.
I couldn't have said that better myself.
i agree with you.i say the same thing too,more so when i hang around these GO's.i say it to folks who i see in utter confusion and they look at me with a look that says "go f*** off" honestly people are so thickheaded it makes me just wanna scream sometimes...scream in thier faces that is.
People lack common sense, and damn the vast majority don't read signs well. I mean the signs outline the changes, and yet people still go and ask 20,000 other sources before they even get it......and in the end most STILL DON'T GET IT!!!
Actually, the signs themselves are not all that good. It would be nice if the service notices were as detailed as Grimace1169's post. Instead, all we get is this:
(N)(R)(W)
WEEKEND
(N) Manhattan-bound trains run
on the (Q) from Stillwell to
DeKalb Avs
(R) no Manhattan-bound trains
from 59 to 36 Sts
(W) buses run between 9 Av
and 36 St
12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon
Jul 20 to 22
Shuttle buses replace trains at (N) (R) stations from 59 to 36 Sts.
Buses stop outside subway entrances. Ask for a free transfer
even if you use MetroCard.
(R) customers should ride the B37 or B63 to travel between
Bay Ridge and Sunset Park.
(In small print)
This work is part of MTA New York City Transit's ongoing effort to maintain and upgrade the subway
system. We regret any inconvenience you may experience.
----
See what I mean? Sure, it has useful information, but it's kind of confusing. It should have more of the big picture, such as the fact that the R train runs in 3 sections, or where the W train runs. It also has absolutely nothing about the N Train running express on the Brighton Line. Wouldn't some more information be a little more helpful, at least for those that actually read the announcements?
- Lyle Goldman
The information Lyle wants on the posters, to me, at least, comes under the heading of "nice, but too much." For one thing, it's a station poster (or a subway car poster), not "War and Peace." There's just so much space available. For another, people on the Sea Beach Line (N) who want to get to Manhattan will already know (from what IS on the poster) that they must backride and that their train will go via Brighton (Q) -- express is a bonus but it is not necessary to tell Sea Beachers that for them to get where they're going. As to the Fourth Avenue, when those people get to 36th Street or 59th Street, they'll find R trains. Only railfans would be interested in knowing that the line is running in three sections. And as to the West End (W), if you ride the line at all you know where it runs, and if you don't you don't care.
David
And what about the excessively chatty poster two weeks ago for the big IRT GO? No mention that the 2 was running only one way on the East Side. No mention that, although the 1 was running SB only to 34th, it was reentering service NB at Franklin. No mention that, although the 3 was running to 14th, nothing was stopping at 28th, 23rd, or 18th. No mention that the 5 was running express both ways (according to the poster, it was running on the 2 line, which according to the maps is a local, so some clarification would have been nice).
Now let's see what was posted where. Nothing on either platform at 96th or 72nd. Most 2 trains, and some 1 and 3 trains, had posters, but no 5 trains did, at least none of the ones I rode. (That's still an improvement. There's rarely any signage on the trains at all these days.) There were signs on the SB platform at 14nd, but they directed passengers to the A/C -- last I checked, that passageway was closed to the public. How about directions via the F or L, which are available at that station?
Back to this service advisory. "(R) no Manhattan-bound trains from 59 to 36 Sts" -- why the "Manhattan-bound" if there are no R trains in either direction? (Maybe it should be obvious that there are no Queens-bound trains if there are no Manhattan-bound trains, but it also seemed obvious two weeks ago that the 1 wouldn't be running NB south of 34th, and that was wrong.) And some Q passengers might see this poster and try to use the N, only to find that it's running express -- could it hurt to insert the word "express" or to use a diamond?
Service advisory signage has really gotten awful over the past year. I can provide other examples, if you'd like.
The one I love is when there's no weekend A service to the Rockaways, which includes the very crucial Howard Beach/JFK. There may be signs on the platforms saying "Shuttle buses replacing A train between Rockaway Boulevard and Beach 98th Street."
But this is meaningless to the average tourist wishing to get to the airport. There should be an addendum along the lines of "There is NO A service to Aqueduct, Howard Beach/JFK and all other stops to Far Rockaway. If you need any of these stops, do NOT wait for a Far Rockaway train. IT'S NOT COMING- All A trains are going to LEFFERTS BOULEVARD. Take the next A train to Rockaway Boulevard and transfer to the shuttle bus. Please make sure you're on the right shuttle bus."
Well, maybe not that wordy. But it would keep a lot of people from missing their flights.
It would also help if Queens-bound A train conductors would make this announcement while the train is in the station- not after it's already pulled out, leaving a lot of people waiting for nonexistent Far Rockaway trains.
Sometimes these "crazy GOs" provide railfans the greatest opportunities!
That means that, in addition to R-40 slants, R-32s will ply the Manhattan-bound Brighton express tracks this weekend!
Gotta try to get out there again .....
--Mark
Gotta try to get out there again .....
But it's so hot... oh alright... the pictures will be worth it. Please post some of yours if you get some good ones.
so whats it gonna be with the N?if i stay all the way to 86th st,will they say to get off and run empty and start service at Stillwell northbound and can you ride to Stillwell without a problem?and one more thing,how in blazes can they run a shuttle bus going northbound only!? people who get off at 36th and want to....oh nevermind,the N will get them there southbound,hehe.
so whats it gonna be with the N?if i stay all the way to 86th st,will they say to get off and run empty and start service at Stillwell northbound and can you ride to Stillwell without a problem?
I reckon they'll let you ride through from 86th to Stillwell. If they didn't there'd be no way of getting from Sea Beach stations (at least those East (South) of New Utrecht Av) to the rest of the system.
Rube Goldberg would be proud !!
Bill "Newkirk"
This has come up before but I had forgotten the debatable outcome. Were there any wall tiles at 86 St? I don't know what to think anymore. The station wall has these little metal fasteners on it. It wouldn't make sense if the wall was just tiled. Was there a false wall that didn't stand the test of time? Interesting how they tiled the station wall at the very north end of the station to go with the platform lengthening that was done later.
Also, does anyone know the track arrangement of 86 St. when it was the terminal before 95 St. opened? There is a single crossover north of the station. Was it at one time a diamond crossover for terminal operations? Or did the arriving trains then move south of the station and use either the middle (spur) track or the soutbound track to change ends and then re-enter the station on the northbound track? It appears likely that before they lengthened the station at the south end, there were switches. Either from the spur track or the southbound track and over to the northbound track. The curtain wall near the bumping block at the northend of the spur track is angled as if for a switch at one time. The bench wall south of 86 St is also shaved a little as if to permit a trains end excess to diverge over a switch. Thanks in advance.
The 4th Ave line was built as two tracks from 59th to 95th Streets, with provision for increasing to 4 tracks. Today's tracks would be the 95th St-bound tracks and the 2 new Manhattan bound tracks would take up the "provided space".
The underground bridge over the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch is built to accommodate 4 tracks and only 2 are in use.
The wall along the Manhattan-bound track at 86th St would have been the partition between services in opposite directions. IIRC, there are bricked-over "escapes" along that wall.
--Mark
Does anyone know, or are people just weirded out?
?'s about AC drives
More ?'s
AEM7
I'll chide in here - I've been extremely busy lately (although I posted my OWN tangent to a more pressing issue in another thread around this part of the list that I felt a bit more important for my limited time) ... what you've asked is something I could provide if I had the luxury of time (don't) and figured others here could get into.
FWIW: IGBT is INSULATED Gate Bipolar Transistor, that one doesn't require digging ... but as to the others, ain't got the time at the moment. Give the physics majors a chance, I'm sure it'll be answered.
Moo, by the way. :)
I might have answered your questions, but it wasn't clear
what you were asking.
A thyristor simply means a 4-layer device (PNPN). A positive
gate pulse turns it on. A normal thyristor (aka Silicon Controlled
Rectifier) will then latch up and conduct until the voltage
across its terminals is commutated (reversed), e.g. in light
dimmer applications where the AC line is feeding it. It is therefore
useless in induction motor drives which operate from a DC bus.
A Gate turn-off thyristor is one in which commutation can be
effected by drawing a reverse current back out the gate. This
requires considerable power on the driver circuit and thus limits
the current handling capacity and the switching frequency.
An IGBT (the I stands for Insulated, not Inverted) is a cross between
a Metal-Oxide Field Effect Transistor (MOSFET) and a Bipolar
Junction Transistor (BJT). The big problem with FETs is they have
a fairly high power loss across the device, i.e. a high equivalent
resistance when they are on. BJTs can handle much higher currents
with less power drop, but they require large base drive currents
and thus the driver circuitry is difficult. An IGBT combines the
current handling of a BJT with the ease of driving provided by the
insulated gate.
Thanks, Jeff. That was basically what I needed to know :) Glad you compressed all that semiconductor fizzix into 2 paragraphs. Quite a feat.
AEM7
Does anyone know how much it costs to hire an excursion trolley from SEPTA? My fiance and I think it would be cool if after the wedding ceremony, instead of leaving the church and getting into a limo or something, we walked out of the church and onto a trolley. The only problem is that the church is on the 34 trolley route and the reception place is on the 36, so we couldn't go directly. To do that we'd have to hire an excursion trolley and go down some of the non-route tracks that connect the lines for part of the trip.
Mark
One more thing...I realize it's probably prohibitively expense, but I just thought I'd ask for anyhow.
Mark
Your worrying about expense on the most joyous day of your life.
Over the years at the Trolley Museums, I'm active in we have had
Weddings on Trolleys, numerous times, and non~members also.
One year we even had a pre~reception at Branford, where the guest
enjoyed socialization, while the happy couple & entourage were
at the photographers and then joined the guests for a trolley ride
prior to departing to the reception.
Hopefully, you'll only do this once in your life, so to the devil
with the expense. Besides that, if you request a certain SEPTA trolley driver
[Gary, I think] who's noted for decorating cars for special occasions, you won't be sorry.
Hey, this IMO, Cheers :-)
Sparky
I've seen and ridden Gary's decoracted trolleys many times. They're wonderful.
Would you happen to know who at SEPTA I would contact about this?
Mark
You could try SEPTA Travel Information Center Online.
Thanks Bob,
I only offered some insight to his query of using a trolley. He's
entering matrimony in an area where the streetcar is feasible, go
for it, unless your really financially strapped. IMO, I think the
associated cost is most likely compatible with a stretch limo a/o white R.R. He also was knowlegable of whom I suggested for the operator. Also how many guests will join the happy couple for their jaunt of joy from church to reception. Cheers, Mazeltov, LaHeim, NaZrowie.
:-) Sparky
Call Ed Springer of SEPTA's Light Rail Operations (215-580-3819, I believe). He can give you the rates, etc.
In the Phila Sunday Inquirer magazine a few months back, the featured wedding (one is featured every week) was a couple from Penn who met on the subway-surface, so naturally... actually, they didn't get married on a car, but at a church close to 36th-Sansom, and then took a regular-service car to 30th St Station where their reception was held. There was another wedding I recall not too long ago between two folks who met on a SEPTA bus, but they did indeed get married on a chartered SEPTA bus.
SURVEY about basic subway car announcements improving.
Delay announcements still need improvement, however.
Peace,
ANDEE
Examples of "Useful" Announcements:
fire/accident, police activity
ahead of/behind schedule, congestion
sick passenger
emergency brake pulled
track/signal work
Examples of "Not Useful" Announcements
change in service (no further explanation)
schedule adjustment
fix gap in service
held by supervision/dispatcher
red signal
with these guidelines, of course delay announcemants are bad... "not useful" announcements are often true...
So what's the difference between the "Not Useful" schedule adjustment or held by supervision/dispatcher and the "Useful" ahead of/behind schedule? or the "Not Useful" red signal and the "Useful" congestion?
schedule adjustment, fix gap in service v.s.
ahead of/behind schedule, congestion
I think the point here is that C/R should announce that they are "being held because the previous train is running late". If the general public would understand that transits do not run on a schedule but on a headway, they would not complain when they hear that their train is being held to "fix gap in service".
AEM7
If the general public would understand that transits do not run on a schedule but on a headway
If that is indeed the case, the MTA are really misinforming people by printing schedules.
Subways now run on schedule...not headways...during peak hours of usage. Starts at 6 AM in the morning....gotta leave at 5:30 to make my barn by 6:52. Drive by car is only 19 minutes. CI Peter
Subways now run on schedule...not headways...during peak hours of usage.
Decades of research has shown that on busy lines, headway management is far more effective.
Let's get clear on what headway management *is*, and why it is different from schedules. A headway-managed subway *still* has a schedule, but it's the way in which the schedule is adhered to that differs.
On a schedule-oriented system, each train will leave from its terminus as close to the scheduled time as possible, regardless of what happened previously.
On a headway-oriented system, each train will start off leaving on schedule, but if one train should be delayed by say 3 minutes, then the next train to leave terminal would be held back three minutes delibrately, etc, until a suitable gap in service is reached to restore the schedule. (Or at least that is the easy version of headway management).
Most systems are a hybrid. For example, if you have a line that hosts both short-turns and long-distance services that run on infrequent schedules (say short turns occur every 6 minutes but every 18 minutes a train is extended to the long-distance terminus) then what you need to do is to ensure the long-distance trains run close to schedule but headway-manage the short-distance trains. So for example, if a short-turn is delayed by 6 minutes, then it will have its destination changed and will become a long-distance run, whilst the following train (also delayed by 6 minutes) will become a short-distance train. Of course, this wrecks havoc with your traincrew schedules, but you deal. It's what good transit management should be able to cope with, for example it should be a matter of policy that all short-turn operators will have route knowledge on the long-distance run just in case they have to be switched due to headway management issues.
I suspect NYCTA subways is run on a mixture of headway- and schedule- management, with the long-runs being schedules and short-runs and shuttles being headway-managed.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
AEM7
In the case of SF MUNI LRV operations, the problem is often a surface delay which engenders a long gap on one line --lots of riders jamming the platform waiting for the outbound to their route as many of all of the others load and go. The obvious solution reassign a car or two to the delyed line, then reassign the delayed guys to the ones you had borrowed from. Unfortunately, TWU contract language in San Francisco made such otherwise intelligent crew deployment difficult for many years. LRV operators were 1. privileged to refuse assignment to a different route, 2. paid an hourly premium if they accepted such work. (note that three of five routes shared both end points--imagine the B,C,D Green Lines all terminating at Reservoir). (And in the spirit of Democratic Socialism, a recent referendum in SF was passed which changed some contract provisions by fiat of the citizenry)
During the rush hour, once there is a delay, there is no
management, because there is no option. You can't hold trains
because the other trains are right behind. The only thing that
is done is when things get really bad, the terminals start dropping
intervals.
once there is a delay, there is no management, because there is no option. You can't hold trains because the other trains are right behind.
That's why you hold the train in front of the delayed train, so that the delayed train isn't further delayed by excessive loading.
AEM7
In practice that doesn't work. It just means the leader of the
laid-down train will get overloaded. The only time I've seen
something like that is when there is a major incident like a
12-6 or 12-9. Leading trains will be held to try and gap out
the headways.
only time I've seen something like that is when there is a major incident like a 12-6 or 12-9.
What's a 12-6?
What's a 12-6?
Derailed train.
Thanks.
Or, if the delay is only on the local tracks of a line with local and express service, you divert an express to the local. I think the TA does that on some lines, but it's practically unheard of on mine.
But we DO run on a schedule.
Me I am honest with the people......what I know my customers will know, what I don't know I try to find out and do my best to keep everyone informed, and I find that everytime I do that, especially in the face of a delay, the people will actually come up to me and thank me for keeping them informed so well. I don't hide or bull**** unless it's a serious emergency, then I am a little repressed so as not to cause any kind of a panic. I tell this kind of thing in a subtle way so the people know, yet don't be alarmed or panicked. Keeps the attitudes relaxed, and gives the people a reassuring feeling that things will move and all is ok.
When one says a red signal ahead, they are being honest, if the signal is red the train can't move, and the people understand this and realize there is nothing we can do about it, we let the people know. If we get holding lights, this means the dispatcher wants us to stop and stay, so being truthful you tell the customers that the dispatcher is holding us and we expect to be moving shortly. This business is about helping to keep the riding public informed. The only non-useful announcement is one where some guys use blatent hostility towards people to tell them to release doors, or to threaten to take a train out of service if people don't release doors. This is not useful at all, and causes increases in assaults, and causes hostility towards transit personnel, not to mention it can get one written up and taken out of service.
And I must say so I think I do some damn good announcements!! :-)
The really useful announcement is:
"Because of a stalled train at Canal Street, all downtown A, C, and E trains will be delayed."
Then I know what to expect if I stick it out, and can decide whether to bail out to a different line.
Of course, much of the time NYCT personnel don't have this sort of information when they should. That's a management failure.
Trust me, speaking from experience, us underground do not get the whole story, and often most don't even like to get on the radio and say fully what's going on, sometimes don't say nothing at all. Case in point...the idiocy that works in Murphy (38th St Master) Tower in Brooklyn. Countless times while working the M do I get held in the station, always meeting a set of holding lights as we come in, and we can be a few minutes late, not a single connection train in sight, and no clue why we're being held. When I and/or my motorman get on the radio and ask what's going on, we get only one answer....silence!! And not only to customers is this frustrating but to us too it is. Passengers don't know but wanna know what's going on, come to us, and we have to find away to tell them something to keep the frustration levels down despite the fact we don't, ourselves, know what's going on. Or they put my M train (which on the last trip is a CIYD layup) in front of a W, most of the time which is already late, then have us tie the W up more when we have to clean out the M train at Bay Parkway, which takes time, and has the W waiting at 20th Avenue, and having delay-pissed customers on the W getting more pissed. They (supervision, dispatchers, etc.) do things no one understands, especially us operating crews, then when we want to know what's going on, no one says a dog-gone thing. Unfortunately then when we don't know, how can we keep the customers informed properly and timely?
>>>When one says a red signal ahead....<<<
Personally, this always annoyed me, why not just say "due to a red signal" period. The ahead part is not needed. The delay is not due to a red signal BEHIND us.
I know I'm being picky.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've never heard this in NYC, but in Boston, T employees like to add "...at this time" to all radio transmissions. Such as, "Control, we have a red signal ahead AT THIS TIME." Well, at what other time would it be?
Delay announcement will never make people happy. Some just want to know when thew train will move (we don't know, rarely are told and control centers estimates are often wrong), some want to know everything (I don't know if the sick passenger 3 stations ahead is having a baby or a heart attack) and some want to know all the tech stuff (I don't know why the power is off how any feet it extends or how they fix an air switch that is underwater).
I would also add that from a previous discussion here the details you want to hear are not the stuff that the customers in general are most interested.
Re: annoucements:
The most deteriorated line was the N, which dropped from 76% in 2001 to 56% in 2002.
Sea Beach Fred - your line gets no respect!!!
--Mark
This pic was found on this site but was dated 9/9/2001(That was pre-V train changes and pre-9/11)???!!!
There was a one day trial run of the V well before service started, it was on a satruday, though i forget when. I think it was last july or aug.
It was Saturday 9/8/01, same day as the "Try Transit" Festival at Hoboken. I know... was was there.. .and took a picture almost identical to this one taken by Trevor. I also still have a copy of the service notice from that day (.pdf taken off the MTA Web site):
(F)(V)
(F) Detours through the 63rd St. Tunnel
(V) Runs local between 71-Continental and 2 Avs
5AM Sat to 2AM Sun
Sep 8 to 9
I rode the (V) with some veryconfused people that day -- the average rider had never heard of a (V) no less seen one.
However as I recall, NYCT ended the "experiment" around 8pm on the 8th. I went looking for another (V) ride that evening and a TSS told me they ended things early.
This pic was found on this site but was dated 9/9/2001(That was pre-V train changes and pre-9/11)???!!!
It was more than likely taken during the test runs a few weeks before the service went into effect.
Peace,
ANDEE
Then how come it was in revenue service?
That's how they tested it, to see how it would be in actual service.
Peace,
ANDEE
This was the day the railroad in the Queens Division was ultra-backed up and confusion was totally amuck. I was working the F this day luckily. I was extra-extra (AM) at the time and thought I would end up on it, but I ended up on the F. Everyone was like "what the f*$% is the V??", "where does the damn V go??", or "what damn train is this??". There was customer confusion, crew and supervision confusion, hell at one point the V was going express because everything got so screwed up at Continental regarding relay procedures, who was relaying (crews, that is), who'd pick the train up on the stand, what get's layed up. It was really a mess. The R-32 was used for the V, along with R-40 (slant) from the Q Express. This was the only one day they tested the V, and the extra 32s and 40 slants were used since the E anf F had 46s, the R had 46 and 32, and there were a few extra 32 trainsets left over.
The picture has the wrong date. The V was tested on Saturday Septemeber 8th, 2001 for one day only. The date is wrong on the picture. This was the Saturday before September 11th, which was a Tuesday.
R-40 [slant] on a 'V'. Many on this board would have to bring undie
changes or wear disposables. Did they have extra station attendants
to keep the platforms "foam" freeee. >G<
;-) Sparky
Off topic as this may be, is anybody here coming to Toronto for it? If so, let me know if you need any travel advice (don't plan on driving) regarding getting to and from the event locations and around the city in general and I should be able to help since I've spent a lot of time over the past two years in the area of the city where it's all being held.
-Robert King
My wife and I may be in Toronto during that timeframe (don't know yet) but that's not why we'll be there... is there any particular area we should avoid?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How likely does a fare hike seem? Bloomberg is once again cutting funds. I hope he dies.
Anyhow, I have an idea. Only vote for someone who won't raise the fare. Off course, they will promise not to raise it until they get in. An amendment to the Constitution is in order, that would specify that a candidate MUST keep his promises when elected. 2 dollars is simply too high. What would the monthly unlimited fare be then?
BTW, flame me until the server crashes. I still hope Bloomberg drops dead. He's nothing but a crooked businessman. Also, his comments about a "small memorial," and "no one wants to work near a graveyard" were out of order. I hope 2000 spirits haunt him every night. No wonder he can't find a wife.
While I don't wish the man harm, I believe he is reversing a lot of the progress the city has mad in the last decade. Even the progressive recycling program NYC had has been cut back. New York has become a relatively safe city (considering how many people work/live there) But I'm afraid a lot of the good things that have improved in NYC is reversing, such as homeless people on the streets/subway, etc. NYC has become a major tourist destination (although it always has), and the tourists bring in money, so they are needed/wanted. I almost laugh when I see Times Square with the Disney touch, and tourists with cameras and video cameras hanging off of their necks. 15-20 years ago, they probably would have been mugged in broad daylight there, and what would they have videotaped or photographed anyway?....porn shops and theaters?
I know we have a different city than we had on September 10th, but at the same time I believe Bloomie's (or the alternative's) reign would have also been a step backwards. There's got to be other ways to save money than to cut a lot of the programs that have made this city a better one than it was 10 years ago.
and those better ways are....
REINSTITUTE the commuter tax. Either you bring in more revenue or you spend less--not too many other choices. Cities don't function without services.
That's not something that's up to the Mayor; the state legislature repealed that, to appease the folks who commute here from other New York counties. See, it was their 'election promise' that they kept.
-Hank
Correct, BUT, that s still my preferred alternatibe. I am bacicly anti-fare; if there must be a fare it should be nominal. After all, you don't "pay" the cops or the firfighters each time they show up. To me public transit is every bit as necessary as police fire, water sewage etc. And as a philosophical point, I resent regressive taxes such as sales tax. All that said, I despair about ever getting the tax/expenditure routine straightened out ubtil upstate is divorced or at least has its power reduced to match its population. Larry Littlefield, in many posts and his Taub study has documented the upstate ripoff of the city, and its been that way for decades. In Mailer's run for Mayor when I was in my early 20's there was a 29% percent of state expenditures stolen from the five boroughs. That's a lot of public services prevented.
Get real. New York City only has a population of some 5 million, including the 5 boroughs. New York State population is 18 million. Whichever way you do your sums, a hell of a lot of people live in upstate New York, whether you like it or not.
The reality is that NYC needs NYS just as much as NYS needs NYC. Take one example. Where the hell would you build transit cars in NYC? No you wouldn't -- there's not the space.
You may feel that NYC people are getting ripped off because they contribute x% in terms of taxes and gets (x-y)% in terms of budget expenditure. While this is true, it is a necessary part of the rural subsidy. People who live in Plattsburgh that build cars for NYCTA need police, fire, utilities, and transportation too. If they don't get those services, Plattsburgh wouldn't be there and NYC wouldn't get its subway cars.
For the same reason, interstate highways exist in the Dakotas, along with rail lines, even though you may personally never go there. All that grain has to come in to the city somehow.
AEM7
New York City only has a population of some 5 million, including the 5 boroughs.
Long-term fruitless apartment hunting almost makes me wish that were true, but the U.S. Census Bureau claims it was 8 million in the year 2000.
but the U.S. Census Bureau claims it was 8 million in the year 2000.
That's for the New York MSA. The New York MSA included places like Westchester County(?) which isn't in the 5 boroughs. New York MSA also extended to Suffolk County on Long Island. Check the Census Bureau's MSA maps for definitions.
AEM7
County Population
Bronx 1,332,650
Kings 2,465,326
New York 1,537,195
Richmond 443,728
Queens 2,229,379
Total 8,008,278
As pointed out in the other post, 8 million IS the population of just NYC. If you include some (not even all) of the suburban counties of NYC you'll find that the immediate NYC metro area has a majority of the population of NY state as a whole.
That is just plain crap. MY Metro Area includes most of North Jersey and most of Connecticut, making the CMSA population about 20 million. NY State population is around 18 million -- the CMSA cannot all be in NYS. If you compare NYC (8 million) to the rest of the NYS (18 million - 8 million = 10 million), there is still a sizable population in NYS. They need representation too.
The Census notoriously undercounts.
-Hank
The Census notoriously undercounts.
Especially in urban areas.
If you add the populations of Westchester and Nassau counties (both in NY state) to NYC itself, you end up with over 10 million people, which is more than half the 19 million population of all of NY state. I am not counting any people who live in other states.
Might as well get the facts straight.
From http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36000.html:
Numbers in millions
NY State: 19.0
Bronx 1.3
Kings 2.5
Queens 2.2
Richmond .5
New York (Manh) 1.5
NYC Total: 8.0
Nassau 1.3
Suffolk 1.4
Westchester 0.9
Rockland 0.3
Suburban total: 3.9
Rest of state therefore: 7.1
One of the major glitches in US political be
havior currently is precisely the inequitable distribution of expenditures both Federal and state. The ability of rural/suburban coalitions (Republican or sell-out Democrat) to deny the actual cities necessary funding for needed services while bashing the residents for failing to bootstrp themselves is pervasive. While the Mailer era stats are not current, the trend is. I neither deny the need for nor object to ALL rural infrastructure improvement, but I do object to the refusal to allocate sufficient funding. Example: LA MTA consent decree in NAACP v. MTA which was sustained through a US SC refusal to rehear. The case focued on expenditures for low ridership per dollars exended commuter rail to distant suburbs versus inadequate bus service for lower class riders. Posters from the Philly area can attest to Harrisburg's stingy attitude toward SEPTA bus/subway services, Chicagoans can point out differing levels of generosity from Springfield toward Metra for the burbs and CTA for "them."
Entertainingly, as the 'burbs keep sprawling out further, even inner older suburbs are being shortchanged.
One of the few attempts to stem this tide is the Twin Cities regional tax equity split. Apparently they have enacted a per caita split of the sales tax revenues within the region so that the nominally ooredr areas will actually get funding. A bill to do similar things in Sacraneno has not succeeeded.
I am bacicly anti-fare; if there must be a fare it should be nominal. After all, you don't "pay" the cops or the firfighters each time they show up. To me public transit is every bit as necessary as police fire, water sewage etc.
Three points:
(1) There is a known problem with excessive numbers of 9-1-1 calls. Call centers in large metro areas are already finding they are unable to handle all the calls efficiently. The economist's solution would be to slap on a per-use charge for 9-1-1 unless it is waived because it is deemed to be a genuine emergency. Just like the $200 fine if you misuse the emergency brake on NYCTA cars.
By that token, I would argue that firefighters and other services should be paid for on a per-use basis, even at subsidized prices or perhaps set-up a system like an insurance with an excess. Unless people realize calling out the firefighters cost money, they will continue to do so. Money talks, and a lot of people only understand a logical argument when you tell them "it's going to cost you x dollars".
(2) Anti-fare. Someone has to pay the transit workers somehow. How? Anti-fare goes against everything that you have ever learned. Money, or fare, is something that has evolved in the human society as a substitute for batering. If you want someone to help you, you better give them something in return. If you want MTA to help you get from A to B, pay up, son.
Expecting something for nothing is a typical Republican trait (i.e. competition -> cheap goods -> below-cost goods -> bankruptcy -> Federal bailout). Republicanism is the collective voice of whiners who expect other people to pay for the goods they consume while disguising it as capitalistic competition.
(3) Following my earlier argument, if you expect the upstate to pay for everything themselves, i.e. rural policing, transportation, and other services, then you will find that your grain in NYC and your subway cars on NYCTA suddenly costs a lot more. After all, they have to recover their costs somehow.
Lesson today: Do not expect other people to pay for the goods you consume.
AEM7
no man is an islande...
>>Anti-fare goes against everything that
you have ever learned. <<
Absolutely not.
>>firefighters and other
services should be paid for on a per-use basis,<<
Crass(us)?
False alarms of the fire dept are rare where I live--I have not heard of one in the three decades plus living in Oakland. Indeed the local police long ago set up a 'firewall' for burglar alarm falsing and fines for repeats.--to which I do not object.
All of us are paying for various things we might not ever use directly. Item I have no children, yet like every other resident I pay taxes which pay for public schools. Now as to pay versus free, you presumably use the sidewalks--PAY UP!. Oh you already did through taxes? well I want turnstiles on your sidewalk. Dip or swipe your SlaveCard each time you enter or leave a block. The issue of user charges is not open and shut as you seem to imply. The choice as to whether there should be turnstiles at entrances to city Parks is another example. The National and many State Parks charge for entry. I believe this too is wrong. I would much rather pay slightly more INCOME tax to support public amenities like parks even if I might personally use them infrequently. Unless you are going to pretend to FULLY account ALL costs--both capital and operating, how is it that a subsidised fare is any more "correct" than no fare?
As to the rural versus city issue, you are correct that costs of manufacturing in otherwise completely agricultural areas might be higher. I am well aware that fully costed grain would be more expensive. Almost every nation state subsidises farming as a national security issue--starving citizens have been known to overthrow governments. My point was that the quantity of tax money spent upstate was out of whack.
False alarms of the fire dept are rare where I live--I have not heard of one in the three decades plus living in Oakland.
Read the papers. Every year they usually run at least one article on how since cell phones became widespread, 9-1-1 are receiving a lot more calls, some from random button presses while it is carried in a purse, others from young females who are locked out of their cars, broken down on the highway, or simply saw a man approaching them they they don't like the look of.
All of us are paying for various things we might not ever use directly.
That should never happen, except for capital costs. Capital costs should be bourne by all potential users. Operating costs should be bourne by the current users. How you classify expenses as capital and operating is something that Worldcom only knows.
For things like schools, capital costs can be funded through a subscription programme. If I never intend to have children, then I should be able to opt out of paying capital costs for the city school system. If I intend to have children, then I need to pay a subscription to the city school system, and pay extra when I do actually have children attending school. People who are not subscribers yet decide to have children will be hit with a fee that is about say 30 years' worth of subscription.
Freedom of choice is what the U.S. stands for. Being forced to pay for things you won't ever need is not freedom of choice. How would you like to pay to keep a King? We can fund a King and a palace through the income tax. Even though you may never talk to the King, you know that he's there to talk to you if you ever need anything as a citizen. Why don't we send a bill through Congress right now and propose that a King of the United States be paid out of income taxes. So it's okay right? They take your money, pay someone else for something that you might never need. Whatever happened to the "taxation with representation"?
well I want turnstiles on your sidewalk...
I would happily carry an EZpass in my pocket that deduct $ as I walk at the true costs of maintaining sidewalks. Presumably, under this kind of plan you can also buy a monthly sidewalk pass. I'd probably buy that.
I would much rather pay slightly more INCOME tax to support public amenities...
You're presuming that when they charge you income tax, they will spend it on something you believe to be worthwhile, even if it's something you won't use. If you look at the publicly-funded art projects in London, you will understand why I much prefer a pay-per-use model. Pay-per-use model promotes accountability, because the promoters would then not promote something which very few people would want to use.
pretend to FULLY account ALL costs--both capital and operating, how is it that a subsidised fare is any more "correct" than no fare?
I am against subsidized fare -- for highways, transits, grain, and anything else. I believe in infrastructure investment that happens to bring down the price of grain; artificially holding the price down through subsidy leads to overconsumption.
AEM7
About your subscription for public schools... what if a parent intends to have children and send them to only private schools?
Then they don't have to pay for public schools! Yay!
My parents sent me to a private school, and I resented having to pay for my schooling twice.
When I was 15, I put my education out to bid. The school that offered the best scholarship won my contract. (In Britain, many private school offers private scholarships at age 15.) The school received its reward through being able to write about me in the prospective parents' newsletter and use my photos for publicity and advertizing.
AEM7
>>> Operating costs should be bourne by the current users. <<<
Are you suggesting that only crime victims should pay for the police? Those who were not crime victims also benefit from police work which suppresses crime. How about all the regulatory agencies which inspect things from food to building plans to protect the public? There are those in business who are ethical and would do everything properly without such regulation, but they, and we pay as well as those who would cut corners if there were no one watching.
>>> If I never intend to have children, then I should be able to opt out of paying capital costs for the city school system. <<<
Public schools are not solely for the benefit of the children being educated. The whole theory of compulsory public education is that society as a whole is better off if its members are educated to a certain minimum level. Therefore even if I do not have children of my own, I benefit from by having potential customers who can read my advertising, and a pool of potential workers who can read and write. Supposedly the better educated electorate will be able to make better choices at the voting booths also.
Tom
Supposedly the better educated electorate will be able to make better choices at the voting booths also.
Maybe they'd even be able to figure out the Florida Ballot!
Yes education serves the whole community, and the whole community should pay for it. If you send your children to a private school, yes you will have to pay for that, but you also need to pay for the educations of those people whom you will hire to work in your factories or businesses, etc etc,
A good school system increases the value of your home when it is time to sell it, a poor education system diminishes the value of your property.
>>> Operating costs should be bourne by the current users. <<<
Are you suggesting that only crime victims should pay for the police?
It *should* read that operating costs should be carried by current income.
Police protect the whole community, not just crime victims. They keep the neighborhood from having as much crime, and enforce myrids of other issues as well. Police, building inspectors, public health nurses all of these enhance the life of the community and are paid for out of the public purse. But please be sure that they are covered by current incomes.
Elias
So it's Sunday Communion Service, you're a vistor to a Church. The Alms plate is passed around...whaddaya do? Wave your hand, drop some change, flick a dollar bill or leave a ten/twenty? You get to ride the subway...acess is a buck fifty. Your ride two stops or twenty...are you paying your fair share...by usage..by income...or by acess? Everyone is equal in the system without obligation. Zone charges would raise the roof...the poor would suffer the most. So I carry the Alms plate to the alter almost empty after addressing all with the lessons...and serve Communion to all equally. Waddaya want for a lousy thirty five cents (fifteen cents if your older, ten cents if you're a dinosaur).....to live forever??? Redbirds to the sea, two bucksky for a ride...just don't mess with my parking meters. CI Peter
Is some cases Police can make the community worse, see Abner Louima, Rudy Giuliani, Christie Whitman, and Amadou Diallo.
>>> Is some cases Police can make the community worse <<<
Don't confuse the issue of having a police force with abuses of police power. A police force is absolutely necessary, but it is important that the individuals within the police force are subject to and respect the rules and laws of the society. They cannot be above the law as portrayed in the new Fx TV show, "The Shield."
Tom
Of course most recently the incident in L.A. involving someone getting slammed against the car in an "arrest". Sometimes the criminals can show more mercy than the police.
I said in some cases, not all, but then again depends on what the Police force is doing
http://students.uww.edu/stdorgs/bsu/badboys.htm
How about all the regulatory agencies which inspect things from food to building plans to protect the public?
There is a model in which you could pay for someone to inspect your building on your behalf. Or indeed you could just have the engineering expertise yourself. Why does there always have to be a big brother watching? Why can't people look out for themselves? Why can't, hell, people TRUST one another? If you don't trust someone's store, restaurant, don't go in there. If you trust them, then why would they need to be inspected?
Those who cut corners will go bankrupt in the long run, because no one would trust them, and they would have no customers.
Public schools are not solely for the benefit of the children being educated.
I would argue that public schools are there to do precisely that -- to ensure that kids stand a fair chance of becoming employable once they reach adult age. It is in the kids' own interest to ensure they are employable. The businesses are quite happy to dump them on the street, pack up and move elsewhere where there is a better supply of labor. Just like the MTA trains its own train operators and do not expect other people to pay for its training, there is no reason why businesses should expect the state or the public to pay for the training of its employees. Training should be employee-financed.
There is a valid argument for a general skill set that everyone should have regardless of whether they choose to work or not. These can be financed out of public funds. The current public school system teaches people way beyond what is required to survive in society. For example, calculus is not necessary training for burger-flippers at McDonalds. Calculus should therefore not be in the public school programme.
AEM7
Why can't people look out for themselves? Why can't, hell, people TRUST one another?
1) Enron
2) Worldcom
3) Authur Anderson
4) Federal Budget
etc. etc.
Wouldn't it be SWELL after all these regulations of women (the Taliban women have more rights lately than AMERICAN women) and the morality of others (aside from Bush daughters of course) that perhaps we could extend the "moral compass" to regulation of criminals masquerading as CORPORATIONS? Nope. That'd be heresy.
While we're working on a "regime change" for Baghdad, perhaps we could use one OURSELVES. And the entities you named are just the tip of the iceberg in need of some "morality." Where IS Jerry Fallwell when we need him? :)
(2) Anti-fare. Someone has to pay the transit workers somehow. How? Anti-fare goes against everything that you have ever learned. Money, or fare, is something that has evolved in the human society as a substitute for batering. If you want someone to help you, you better give them something in return. If you want MTA to help you get from A to B, pay up, son.
Expecting something for nothing is a typical Republican trait (i.e. competition -> cheap goods -> below-cost goods -> bankruptcy -> Federal bailout). Republicanism is the collective voice of whiners who expect other people to pay for the goods they consume while disguising it as capitalistic competition.
AEM, David?
Just one question...are you nuts?
Anti-fare. Good Heavens!
I agree with AEM's first paragraph quoted above. You wanna ride, you gotta pay. But this is NOT a protrayal of those of a conservative bent in the slightest. As a proud rightie for many years I hold to the pay-as-you-play philosophy--at least to some degree. Recognizing the need for transit, and that transit can never be 100% farebox supported, I'll support a LIMITED gov't subsidy of public transit.
When you start to give something away it becomes an entitlement--folks believe it's their god-given right to have it. Somebody has to pay for it, and I resent it being me for most (not all) things. If you want to ride the subway, GET A FREAKIN' JOB and buy a farecard! Instant mobility around Gotham is no more a right or entitlement than my desire to drive down to JFK and walk onto a Concorde sans-ticket, because I dream of high and fast flight.
Entitlements are the stock and trade of the left in this country (and in Canada and most other places I'd venture). Free prescription drugs. Free medical coverage. Free housing. Easy-access to welfare...all tools of the left.
I'm also equally against any sort of corporate bailout, but if it's that or watching an employer of 100,000 Americans go under and putting that many consumers out of work, I'll vote for the bailout...thanks.
What you're advocating is just another form of wealth redistribution. That's called socialism, and I lived with it for 40 years in Canada. I left for a reason.
< rant off >
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
I'm also equally against any sort of corporate bailout, but if it's that or watching an employer of 100,000 Americans go under and putting that many consumers out of work,
In most cases bailout results from over-competition. Attempts by right-wing consumers to petition for ever-cheaper goods even when the economics cannot support any cheaper goods. Bankruptcy is the result of consumers failing to pay the true costs (capital and operating) to the firm for the goods they are consuming. In the case of Worldcom, the issue was that the telecoms industry is a natural monopoly that could not support the amount of competition that was being supported by Regeanite deregulators. They got the economics wrong, big time.
Bailouts are not necessary if consumers paid true cost for the services they consume. Of course, even the best economic regulators make mistakes, so bailouts are occasionally necessary. However the goal should be to work as to avoid bailouts.
That's called socialism, and I lived with it for 40 years in Canada. I left for a reason.
Wow, amazing to see a Canadian pissed off with Canada. I'm in the other rare category -- Brit pissed off with Britain and its socialistic tendencies. We should get together and tell those pseudo-Canadian Americans who whine about how great things are in Canada because government pays for everything that they are stupid and nuts. I left, too, for a reason. (See the Mayflower thread)
AEM7
I like Socialism (as a first step). Canada is far from Socialist, at least in the Marxist definition. They have some good services. When should you be driven to poverty if you come down with some serious illness or injury. I fully support national health insurance, like Canada (and all of Europe). We could cut back (not even stop) on being the worlds policeman and we could fund it with cash to spare.
I am a socialist and proud of it, have been all my life, and probably I stay in England for the same reasons that AEM7 left! Like Canada, England isn't all that socialist, but for me the USA is a wonderful place to visit and I've been visiting it regularly for 35 years -- and I love the NY subway -- but I wouldn't want to live there.
Fytton.
heh, I feel the exact opposite sentiment -- I love to visit England and Scotland, but I'd hate to live there. For me, the place hasn't got an economy. That said, I acknowledge the English way of life is a valid one and I know a lot of people are happy with it. It's just not for me.
AEM7
I fully support national health insurance, like Canada
But their health care is not as good as ours. There are long waits for any elective surgery, and many proceedures that are done here are simply not available up there.
This being said.... maybe that is not at all a bad thing. What is with all of this cosmetic surgery, and visits to the doctor over every little thing? And... doctors practice 'defensive medicine', ordering tests for, and treating every little thing (if you are insured) lest they be sued for not treating you properly.
WHY are we taking 96 year olds into the hospital for tripple by-pass surgery?
And then people will by the cheapest possible health care policy, and then bitch when it doesn't cover everything! Hello.... is anybody home?
And as I said... a national plan sucha as Canada's DOES NOT COVER EVERYTING!
I Think *our* health care insurance system (ok it's not *really* insurance... it is a fianace plan) does work very well,
but....
everybody needs to be included in it.
Every employeer ought to privide the 'standard (minimum)' policy for every employee as part of the employment package, with better poicies or plans provide
OK, I can accept your plan, but what about the senior citizens who have to rely on medicare with no prescription coverage?
I have had no personal expeirnce with the canadian health plan, and maybe it does not cover everything. But everyone has a reasonable standard of coverage. True, if you want to have a fact lift, you can pay for that out of your pocket, but if you need insulin to live, you will get it. And I do not have the facts as to what is not available in Canada that is available here. Has any impartial studies been done? There are always anedotinal evidence, but it is just that. You also hear of people in the USA with coverage and the insurance compnay will not pay because they think it is "experimental", so I am not so sure about that argument against national health insurance. And if the gov't gets involved in the health care system they can pass tort reform to control the sky high cost of malpractice coverage. I work for a medical malpractice insurance firm, you would be stunned by the premiums paid by doctors and hospitals.
How many people in the US have no coverage? Your concept of mandatory coverage with employment is fine by me. But (to adopt an arguement of the right wing) low paying entry wage jobs often do not (and I would agree many could not, and still be available in the numbers needed) come with any coverage.
I know business would object to madatory medical coverage, but I wonder how much they would object to paying into a gov't fund to cover their workers. I am assuming the vast majority of employers offer jobs both with and without health beneits. So they win on the higher paid people they no longer would be paying medical for and lose some on the tax for the lower paid. Net zero. And they are relieved of the paper work and administering the plan.
How many people in the US have no coverage?
According to the recent political movie, 50 million -- or 25% of the population. That's 50,000,000 uninsured. A serious problem.
Your concept of mandatory coverage with employment is fine by me.
If things are going to be mandatory, then we need to ensure that there is adequate choice unless the market is a natural monopoly.
Firstly, there are reasons for things to be mandatory. For example, wearing seatbelts is mandatory because most people fail to assess the probabilistic risk of their getting killed with or without a seatbelt. That I entirely agree with. Now, statistics may show that mandatory health insurance falls in the same category. For example, it is conceivable that you can make a statistic that demonstrated a high percentage of people without insurance ends up being "bailed out" by the government when they fall sick. In which case, it would only be fair to have mandatory insurance.
Telecommunications, sewerage, and transit services are clear natural monopolies. The product is specific, and the economies of scales are needed to operate profitably. The optimum number of firms is less than one. These should therefore be regulated monopoly businesses.
Health insurance (the financing aspect) is not a natural monopoly. Most claims are not sufficiently large cause a problem requiring re-insurance. One would argue the re-insurance industry is a natural monopoly, but with the biggest operations costing under $100,000, with about 50,000 subscribers paying an annual $1,000 premium, you can easily contain the risk. The optimal size of an insurance firm in the United States (population = 200,000,000) is clearly more than one. Hence there is no need for medical insurance to be public. A competitive market will yield value for the customer.
However, the provision of health services (i.e. hospitals) are a different matter. There, there are economies of scale, and economies of density. Hospitals therefore should be regulated natural monopolies, or subject to limited competitve situations.
So they win on the higher paid people they no longer would be paying medical for and lose some on the tax for the lower paid. Net zero. And they are relieved of the paper work and administering the plan.
I don't know if this can be supported by actual cost analysis. However what the businesses might think does not really matter. The issue at hand is that if it can be shown that mandatory health insurance is a good thing socially speaking (in terms of consumer surplus, etc), and that choices for different levels of coverage can exist (subject to a minimum as defined by the statistics I outlined above), then I would have no objection to supporting a medicaid "tax" of some sort, to provide that bottom line cover. The important thing here is that I should be able to opt for better levels of service by switching providers, which is somethign that is all-too-lacking in European style schemes.
I would be the first one to take out health insurance -- I'd never want to be caught without insurance. But again, that is my choice...
AEM7
According to the recent political movie, 50 million
The political movie is titled "John Q". The storyline is about some worker who was supposedly insured, but was denied coverage because his company had switched plans on him without informing him. The movie discusses the political issues in an interesting fashion. It came out in the theatres last winter, so you should be able to get it on VHS now.
The movie made me feel sad for the organ donor who was crushed to death in Canada by two semite trucks. They never even told us her name.
AEM7
>>>who was crushed to death in Canada by two semite trucks <<<
Gee, some guys try to blame the Jews for everything. :-)
Tom
Arabs are semites too.
Could have been Palestinian trucks. They're semites too ... :)
I'm not too clear on what you mean by the optimum number of firms being "less than one". "One" I can understand and equates to a natural monopoly (by the way, I think you should include gas and electric in there also). But I don't see how less than one(zero?) is a realistic situation.
An interesting point about hospitals possibly being a natural monopoly and insurance financing not being one. The mergers of most hospitals (at least in the NYC area, just about every hospital has joined some type of larger group, Beth Isreal, St Lukes/Roosevelt, NY Eye and Ear Infirmary are now "Continum Health Partners") is being done to gain negotiating advantage with the health insurers. The HMO have been forcing many restritions on hospitals and what rates they would pay, so that the hospital are getting together to have more leverage with the insurers. If there are many hospitals, the insurers can cut a deal with one or two for lower rates since the large HMO have a very large number of clients. Once a big hosptal agrees to the lower rate, a standard is set. This might tend to argue that both ends of the business (service providers and service payers) may tend towards natural monopolies. Or the truth may be that these could be situations that are not quite natural monopolies, but a case where the optimum number of firms is just above 1, say 2 or 3. I can't recall the name of that situation.
In any event, I guess I just see health care as a basic human right and something the government has a role in providing to all its citizens. Resonable people can disagree on that. But I do have problem in accepting that caring for the weak and sick is somehow anit-evolutionary. It may be true in a technical sense, but the purpose of a civilied society is to protect the rights of all. Why don't you feel the police are anti-evolutionary, if you can't survive the streets, you don't deserve live? How is protecting an ill person from cancer any different from protecting a small, frail person from a big strong thug? We agree that you need a policeman to protect little old ladies from muggers, so why don't you feel we need to protect that little old lady from cancer or other illness?
The Government outht to have NO ROLE in health care.
People should be responsible enough to buy thier own health care policies. Many do this through an arrangement with their emplioyer.
OK, we have a minimum wage, and part of that minimum wage law ought to specify that the package include health care.
Then for others.... oh welll, see my other post wherever it was.
As for all people deserving health care...
If this is so, where do you draw the line?
You *do* have to draw a line somewhere!
Or do you propose to provide health care to every person on the planet?
People in Zaire are just as valuable in the Lords eyes as those in New York City.
But if you do provide this care, then you must also provide good nutrition, must you not, since proper nutrition is intergal to good health care.
Well, actually, so is shelter. Maybe we should provide housing too....
Elias
Diseases are the enemy. They are as much a part of the "Axis of Evil" as Iraq, Iran and one of the Koreas.
Just as the purpose of our government is to provide an army to protect us from other nations that threaten us, it must also protect us from other SPECIES.
ECUSA has its projects outside of the US...the funds and materiel never seem to be enough...because most of it is stolen by the very governments that continue to demand our subsidies...and place the lives of those who serve as hostages. Yemen, Sudan, Zaire, Angola and Eritrea are atypical...send us money and we'll show you democracy.
Nigeria is worse...support our scams and we'll fund more terrorists.
Some people just aren't smart enogh to make a choice in health care... others like myself are too busy working for the government to be able to find the time for health care without employment penalties. Frankly, being able to drop into a doctors office and whip out my TA ID to get an early morning appointment a week later is worth a three dollar subway token. May you never have to drop upon your knees to ask the Lord for really serious medical help but if you do, your prayers will be answered and the medical help will be right here in New York City. Not Zaire!
If you truly believe in Socialism, drop a dime for the poor and wretched souls of Syria and Iraq. Remember the crews and missions of K-19 and the Kursk...say prayers for the lost souls of Stalins Legions...and salute bin Lodens Disciples of Mohammed.
Better yet, feed the hungry in your backyard. House the homeless in your backyard. Educate the stupid in your backyard. Liberate the prisoners in your backyard. Fix the broken trainset in your backyard...cuz I want a day off....and Give Grace in your frontyard everyday without hesitation. CI peter
Hehehe...
I was not advocating that the man is Zaire was or was not better than the guy in Flatbush, or that we should support the guy in Zaire... I was questioning the idea that the 'government' *owed* health care to anybody.
If we, as a people, decide to have the government provide such health care, it is within our power to make this happen, with the understanding of course, that it must be funded through new taxes.
Given the polarity of the varrious legislatures this will not happen.
If anything must be bewailed at this point it is the polarization of our governments (and people who elect them, of course), rather than finding ways to pull together to work things out.
Nothing good will happen for anybody until there can be this unity, Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives, Liberals and all honestly working together to craft laws that will serve all.
I do not know of any way to 'force' politicians to be responsible people.
Elias
It seems as if part of my post was cut off. I do not know why.
I was trying to say that the 'mandatory' health care plan (and it can be from any one of a number of providers... our plan (BC/BS) lets us choose which plan to HMO to affiliate with, sometimes it is the employers choice) is a part of your compensation package. Clearly those with stronger employment packages (for whatever reason... some people do ear more than others) will have better premium special health protection packages. Others may wish to buy into a better plan... though I cannot figure out why.... Nelson Rockefeller died anyway, you know.
If people would buy their own packages without the employer providing it, the salary would be so much higher, but people 'say that they know better' and spend the money on something else, and then claim they are uninsurred.
I went on further to say, that each person on welfare would have a the same minimum standard plan as par of thier assistance package.
Then I went on to suggest that every school age child be covered with the same standaard plan by the school district. Yes, I know, that means a boost in the mil levy, but so be it.
With these three facets, everybody should be covered by something.
Elias
>>> Every employeer ought to privide the 'standard (minimum)' policy for every employee as part of the employment package, with better poicies or plans provide <<<
Health insurance should not be financed by employers. Once a worker comes down with any expensive malady, the small employer will look for an excuse to fire him, and no new employer will hire him. Even if the employer does not actively look to fire the expensive employee, the employee will not dare quit this job, and therefore becomes somewhat of an indentured servant.
And what about the employee with an undiagnosed problem, such as a brain tumor, who is unable to perform his work and is fired? With the loss of the job comes loss of health insurance, and virtually all hope of having his medical need diagnosed in time for effective treatment.
Tom
Health insurance should not be financed by employers.
Well, my word, fella, *who* else *could* finance it?????
Your employer finances *EVERYTING* that you need or want. He does this as part of the employment package. Mostly this is expressed as a salary (or as $/hr on the time clock). Perhpas there are stock options or bonuses. It is all part of the employment package.
Your health insurance plan needs to be vested, just like your 401k, retirement plan and other emoluments of employment.
Unfortunatly part of my post did post correctly. I went on to say about how the welfare/public assistance package would also include the basic standard health care plan.
Elias
>>> Well, my word, fella, *who* else *could* finance it????? <<<
As in most western democracies, the "premiums" for insurance would be taxes, but everyone, not just those who are employed would be the beneficiaries. As far as public financing of health insurance is concerned, it is already happening to some extent since businesses lower their taxes by the amount they are paying in health insurance premiums. Those who believe employer based health insurance is adequate, ignore the 4-6% of those who are unemployed even in good times, and those who work for small businesses with such slim profit margins (or greedy owners) that no health insurance is provided.
BTW, I have a few anecdotal horror stories of employer paid (read low bidder) health care, and know several people who are probably shortening their lives because they cannot afford health care.
Tom
I don't have a problem with the idea of health insurance. The point is that whatever scheme they (read: government) come up with, they have to allow two fundamental rights:
(1) The right of choice, i.e. I can switch providers if I want to
(2) The right not to pay twice, i.e. if I choose to go private, I should not be paying into the public pool.
I agree that some insurance requirements may be mandatory, for example auto insurance is mandatory in Massachusetts. No reason why a minimum level of health insurance could not be mandatory (I believe it already is in Masschusetts). However, I should be able to choose who provides this minimum level of insurance.
AEM7
Here ya go ... been done ... Roger the shrubber sez so. Moo.
http://www.txhealthpool.com/contact.html
I'm a JOHN LENNONIST and a HARPO MARXIST. Moo.
I should move to Texas. I don't think I'd last there though. But my other half has already said she wants to move there, so I had better get used to the idea... Good to see that Texans in principle agree with me...
AEM7
Yepper, and their sacred Shrub left them TRILLIONS in the hole with all them deficits. Yep, they could SURE use your cash, especially THESE days since they've got an Enron-sized debt to pay off THIS year. :)
No disrepect intended, but the Laissez fairy has big brass clangers and a rip-roaring hard on. Heh.
Peter and all, I return to the sidewalk concept. PAY as you walk! That is so obviously unwieldy and dumb, that noone would seriously support having smart cardreaders or turnstiles on every streetcrner--
except the police state junkies and hardcore libertarians who might want to charge for oxygen usage.
You are certainly entitld to believe in bankrupting those of us blacklisted out of health insurance because we were born with medical problems which generae expenses (which is why we can't get insurance--kind of like redlining neighborhoods with high burglary rates), if you so choose. I just happen to believe in different social goals. And yes I work for a living. Wealth redistribution--yes, I think the Gates, Rockefellers, etc have more than they need.
In my utopia, there would be no SUV's, there would be many more subways, light rail, and full national health. And we can all dream--like you will get to add the Second Ave line to your bookbuilt with private capital out of the goodness of heart of capitalists. LOL
My point exactly about health insurance. If you have a chronic condition, you may never get private insurance. You also should not be punished for an accute illness. If everyone kicks in (progressive income tax), everyone can get adequate health services.
And I also agree, at some points, you don't need any more money and can afford to pay a high marginal tax rate. After 5 million, do really have a problem paying half of the next million?????
My point exactly about health insurance. If you have a chronic condition, you may never get private insurance. You also should not be punished for an accute illness. If everyone kicks in (progressive income tax), everyone can get adequate health services.
Actually, no.
(1) Health provisions keeps on getting more and more expensive because of "newer technology" (read, fatter and fatter profit margins for those in the business).
(2) Not punishing those with acute illness results in retrograde-evolution. The process of natural selection works like this: statistically, you are more likely to die (or less likely to have offsprings) if you are not fit for the environment in which you live. Of course, you may change that environment by migrating. Now, if you had healthcare for everyone, including those with chronic illness, then you are increasing the likelihood of those people with some sort of "problem" to have offspring. Thus the "defect" remains in the gene pool.
Of course, I am no one to judge as to what those "defects" are. After all, I'm only 5'5" and some might consider that a defect. But I am not demand premium payment from tall people just because I am short. Instead I find a girlfriend who don't mind my being short. Now if you were diabetic or whatever and needed constant treatment to stay alive, then you have to either fund such treatments out of your own pocket (in which case you are proving that it's not a handicap and you can survive), or cease to survive and lessen your chance of having offspring. Or move to some place on earth where your chronic illness does not cause a problem in your daily functions (although such a place may not exist).
No one should give up hope in life, but no one should expect help from someone else just because they are born with a feature. I'm born Asian. Does that make me disadvantaged? Theoretically, no; in practice, probably; am I demanding extra help?
AEM7
So we should let sick and weak simply die?!?!?!?!??! You have some sense of compassion! Suppose you had a child born with a cronic condition that cost many thousands of dollars of a year to treat, and you need to stay home with the child? Thne what????
Do you also support the Taliban? I think what has been implimented in Canada and Europe proves that we can set up a centrally funded medical insurance for all.
Just as subway fares are subsidied, we need to do the same for heath insurance.
So we should let sick and weak simply die?!?!?!?!??! You have some sense of compassion!
My sense of compassion is different to yours. My sense of compassion does not extend universally, yours does. My sense of compassion works like this: if I should choose to support another subject, monetarily or otherwise, then it is my choice. If another subject should choose to support me, it is their prerogative.
For example, I found a bunch of wild kittens by Route 13/CSX main track in Ohio. My girlfriend and I chose to adopt three of them -- the three that would come with us. I have no compassion for the other 10 or so that ran away. I do not expect my tax dollars to fund their food, their vet bills, or anything else they might need to survive. Most of them are probably dead now. Actually, four came with us, one of them died during transit -- Freddy presumably caught some disease before we found him and was on his way to heaven when we found him. God bless him.
Two of them (Midnight and Eleanor) subsequently ran away. We just have Ruthie now. She's a sweet little cat. :-)
To give a more human example, I have been paying for a friend's unlimited monthly T-pass for some time now. There is a good reason for it, which I won't reveal here. I don't have to do this, and I don't expect other people to do it for me; but I chose to do so because I believe that it will help. However I do not expect my tax dollars to help people I don't even know, and have never met. If I want to express my compassion, I will choose to do so with my own funds.
Whatever happened to the American bottom line, "freedom of choice"?
Suppose you had a child born with a cronic condition that cost many thousands of dollars of a year to treat, and you need to stay home with the child?
I wouldn't. Either I would make do (if the child is worth enough to me), or I'd give the child up for adoption. If it came down to the survival of either me or the child, I will win.
Do you also support the Taliban?
No.
I think what has been implemented in Canada and Europe proves that we can set up a centrally funded medical insurance for all.
Take a look at the financial statement of the NHS in Britain, then tell me that it can work.
AEM7
At least we can agree on one thing, we like cats! I had 7 at one time, most of them I adopted from shelters when the cats where the least likely to get adopted (they were age 5 to 15 when I adopted them). I also only have one left. My remaining cat is 11 years old and is the sweetest little cat.
I just can't agree with your view of the world. I do think think we have obligation to help our fellow man. It appears you do on your personal level, and I commend you on that. I just think that things can happen to people and they need help. The government is the one to provide it (my opinion) as maybe when one is down oh his luck, there is no one there for him. Everyone has some good in them and is deserving of help.
Everyone has some good in them and is deserving of help.
That is probably true. In an ideal world, without government intervention, anyone who needs help will receive help, because his/her neighbour or friends will recognize that he/she neeeds help and render help accordingly.
Having the government do the work because the society as a whole can't be fucked to do it on an individual basis implies that the society is not ready to be Utopean like you suggest. More anti-social need to be weeded out of the gene pool before the perfect society would form. Not having welfare etc is a good way to weed out those people.
AEM7
Wow ... first time I agree with you. Sorry, as a CORPORATE person, as far as I'm concerned, the Laissez Fairy has LEFT the building. :)
And for the commies wondering what the HADES I mean by "Corporate person," I live UPSTATE. Ain't no flipping jobs up here. If you want to stop eating skunk, vennison and rabbit and have a WHOPPER, then you'd BETTER create your OWN business. Ain't no JOBS upstate. If you can't kill your own food, might as well live in Bensonhurst. Heh.
>>> My sense of compassion is different to yours. My sense of compassion does not extend universally, yours does. My sense of compassion works like this: if I should choose to support another subject, monetarily or otherwise, then it is my choice. If another subject should choose to support me, it is their prerogative. <<<
Wow, a true conservative with the attitude that if I could make it on my own, everyone else should be able to do so also.
It may be alright for Eskimos in the barren North to place ill elders on an ice floe and set them adrift, and it may be alright for those in a life boat in the middle of the ocean to no longer provide scarce food and water to one of their number who has slipped into a coma, but the richest nation on earth should insure that its people do not die of starvation (even if some of them do not want to work for their food) or that they fail to receive adequate health care, regardless of their ability to pay. That is what civilization is all about.
Tom
THANK YOU
But, Tom! Where do you draw the line!
What about the people in Zaire? Don't They count too!
Shouldn't we also feed them, and care for them, and provide housing.
How is a guy in Flatbush any better than a guy in Mwanza?
After all, we *are* the richest nation in the civilized world!
Elias
>>> But, Tom! Where do you draw the line!
What about the people in Zaire? Don't They count too!
Shouldn't we also feed them, and care for them, and provide housing. How is a guy in Flatbush any better than a guy in Mwanza? <<<
Of course the people in Zaire count, but charity begins at home, and although we have a responsibility not to make their condition of life worse than it is, we have no obligation to raise them to our standard of living. Therefore the guy in Flatbush is better off than the one in Mwanza by an accident of birth. It is not acceptable to lower the standard of living of the Flatbush resident to the level in Mwanza.
Re-read my previous post. I have no problem with a society doing less for its members if it has limited resources, but it is wrong for the richest society on earth to do less for its members than most industrial nations do for theirs.
Tom
I have no problem with a society doing less for its members if it has limited resources, but it is wrong for the richest society on earth to do less for its members than most industrial nations do for theirs.
I prefer the "every man for himself" model.
I think that charity is much more effective when it is done on a small scale. I suppose this means I think that there are diseconomies of scale in charitable work -- that is probably true! For example, I recently read in the Boston Metro a story of some random woman in Ohio getting to know some random woman in some random African country and she's helping her with stuff (they were both single mothers). She was not impressed with the charitable agencies that say "send money"; instead she was actually able to mail stuff to this African woman for use in her school; this gave the person in Ohio a sense of satisfaction that she would otherwise not have had. She saw the result of her work.
People do choose to give. A civilized society chooses to give. Those people who choose not to when they have the opportnuity are anti-social. Anti-social people generally disappear from the gene pool because survival is more difficult when you are not part of the larger society.
Thus, for both economic reasons (diseconomies of scale in charitable work) and social reasons (people like to see the result of their charitable work), I believe charity is not the work of a government but the work of every individual in a civilized society.
Tom, have you handed out fude to low-income residents in Flatbush this month? (The last time I handed out fude to low-nicome residents was about a month ago, when I was working at some chuchu neighbourhood supper event. I indirectly paid for this through the donations into church funds.)
AEM7
>>> I prefer the "every man for himself" model. <<<
As I indicated in a reply to another of your posts, that is the socially conservative view that "If I can do it anyone can." The socially liberal view is more in line with "There but for the grace of God go I." Either view carried to an extreme becomes dysfunctional.
>>> I think that charity is much more effective when it is done on a small scale. I suppose this means I think that there are diseconomies of scale in charitable work <<<
Charity is an alternate distribution of goods and services. There is nothing in the charitable model which would be different than a for profit distribution system. In most cases the larger the scale, the more efficient the delivery. This is assuming an honest charity. Obviously scam charities in which much money is collected and hardly any goods and services are provided, but everyone involved skims off money is an exception.
>>> I recently read in the Boston Metro a story of some random woman in Ohio getting to know some random woman in some random African country and she's helping her with stuff (they were both single mothers). She was not impressed with the charitable agencies that say "send money"; instead she was actually able to mail stuff to this African woman for use in her school; this gave the person in Ohio a sense of satisfaction that she would otherwise not have had. <<<
Yeah, she felt better and one family in Africa did well. But that is like John D. Rockefeller handing out dimes to people. He got the warm fuzzy feeling but it did not do much good.
If there is a famine in some far off country do you really think it is better to go to the local supermarket and buy a large can of Spaghetti-Os and put it in a box and send it to that country, or donate that same amount of money to a charity which will pool donations, charter a 747 and deliver a plane load of rice and beans purchased at wholesale to the area where the famine is?
Whenever there is an earthquake in Mexico of Central America, the Los Angeles consulate of the country involved is flooded with donations of canned goods, blankets and clothing, mainly from the Latino expatriate community in this area. Each time, the consulate says send money instead, because there is nowhere to store the goods donated, no way to pay for shipping it, and no certainty that what is collected is what is needed. With money, the relief organization is able to determine what is most needed, where is the closest place it is available, and how to get it to where it is needed. A much more effective alternative, though possibly less satisfying to the donors.
>>> People do choose to give. A civilized society chooses to give. Those people who choose not to when they have the opportnuity are anti-social. <<<
I assume then that you are not one of the many posters who want to get rid of the panhandlers in the subway. There is no more direct way of giving. Of course you have no assurance that several of the many people you give handouts to do not at the end of the day catch the LIRR to their house in the suburbs.
>>>Tom, have you handed out fude to low-income residents in Flatbush this month? (The last time I handed out fude to low-nicome residents was about a month ago, <<<
No, the last time I handed out food was when I was in high school and at Xmas time our class had a project to deliver a food basket (actually a month's supply of staples) to a needy family. I am not sure how we got the family's name, probably from a local church. This was a private school, and my mother was working a second job to pay my tuition, driving a nine year old hand me down car, and I was working part time also to pay tuition. The $10.00 donation (at that time we could fill a basket at the supermarket for less than $20.00) was a real sacrifice. My own Xmas presents consisted of socks and underwear. The class took the food to the "needy" family on the afternoon of the 25th. They lived on a small farm, and as we drove up I noticed a new John Deere tractor in a shed, and two Fords (one the current model year, the other last year's model) parked in front of the house. The house was nicely furnished and had a Xmas tree, with opened presents underneath it. The presents were better quality toys and clothing than I had ever seen in my home. Somehow I felt ripped off rather than warm and fuzzy from this personal charity. At least the recipients looked embarrassed to receive the food from us.
Tom
I assume then that you are not one of the many posters who want to get rid of the panhandlers in the subway.
Funny enough, I have never actually spoken against the panhandlers. I never give to them, but I don't particularly feel that they need to be out of the subway. They don't really bother me. That having been said, I think that the MTA should try to remove them. After all, it is trespassing. I wouldn't allow a panhandler on my (not-yet-purchased) ranch in Texas.
AEM7
I have no problem with a society doing less for its members if it has limited resources, but it is wrong for the richest society on earth to do less for its members than most industrial nations do for theirs.
We have how many trillions of dollars of national debt, and you call us the richest nation on earth?
Actually we *are* the richest nation on earth, but certainly NOT the richest "government" on earth. We are rich because we work and build. A government does not earn money, it *takes* money from those who do earn it. Even corporations do not earn money in the sense that I am thinking of money... rather they facilitate the manufacture and distribution of goods and services. Instead of paying Joe Smith for a pair of shoes, I buy a pair of Florshimes at Macy's.
Macy's takes my money, and pays for the shoes, for the salesman, the building and its plant. The money they paid for the shoes also pays for the transportation, manufacture, the manufacturing plant and its employees.
Some of that money gets passed on to the firm that taned the leather, and some of it gets passed on to the rancher that raised the cow.
Corporations *facilitate* this transaction, but I am the only one who put any money into the system, and I got the shoes to prove it!
A corporation cannot earn any money unless it has employees to do some sort of a work or service. Ergo.... *ONLY PEOPLE CAN EARN MONEY*
A Government cannot earn money. It *takes* money from everyone in the form of taxes to pay for those things that the people say that they want the government to provide for them. When a government tries to provide more services than it can cover with tax revenues, it goes into debt. Some debt is a good thing, it allows an individual, a business, a corporation, or a government to engage in a capital work (building a house, a factory, a highway) and to spread the cost out over the lifetime of that improvement. When a government, a business, or an individual goes into debt to meet regular day-to-day expenses it is in trouble.
Human Welfare, public assistance, education, health care... these are all day-to-day expenses, and in the case of government, such expenses need to be paid out of current revenue collections. It is a simple matter for us to vote to raise taxes to cover these expenses if this is what we wish to do, but since the votes for tax increases are not there, it seems rather clear that this is something that *we* the electorate, do not wish to do. Congress can pass all of the laws they like, but if they cannot also pass the funding, they have passed nothing but gas.
Unfortunatly we, as a nation, have become polarized aand entrenched, you could call it Republican against Democrat, though it is more complicated than that. But being so polarized stops the democratic process. People and politicians alike are entrenched in their own (shallow) positions and refuse to work together to make this the greatest and richest nation as it really should be. It *would* be if we could work together. We did for a few minutes on September 11th, but we have all returned to our trenches, and now nothing can grow.
I am glad that you have high ideals, perhaps all of us do, but we ain't going nowhere but down the tubes, unless we can get our act together and act as a responsible people, a giving people, giving both privately, and giving in unison as a people to provide for the things that we cannot do on our own.
Elias
"After all, I'm only 5'5" and some might consider that a defect. But I am not demand premium payment from tall people just because I am short. Instead I find a girlfriend who don't mind my being short."
I'm still looking...HEHE.
Do you think that money would make it to transit? HAHAHAHA.
OUCH! Don't wish the man death. Maybe he just needs to find a hot 25 year old chick to...umm...restore his vitality and then he can see past the spreadsheets.
BTW. With all the arrests going on, please remember that I simply wished the man harm. I have no intent of hurting a hair on the Mayors combed, sprayed, treated and salon styled hair.
HEHE. That's terrible.
The guy definetly needs a harm! Check this out, parking violation was used to be $55. Now with "Boomberg's" city budget plan, its now $110. Boy, I'm sure saw some flames wooshing up from most drivers head when they recieved the parking violation tickets.
Check this out, parking violation was used to be $55. Now with "Boomberg's" city budget plan, its now $110. Boy, I'm sure saw some flames wooshing up from most drivers head when they recieved the parking violation tickets.
I haven't gotten a parking violation in the last 4 years because I made a concerted effort to alter some of my habits. In the Koch years and before many Queens neighborhoods benefited from what I would like to call "benign neglect" when it came to parking violations. Sure the rules were there but since we weren't double parking on major thoroughfares (ie Manhattan streets) cops sort of looked the other way. In fact tickets were rarely issued on my block even for alternate side violations. As the city began to need money the rules were strictly enforced in the outer boroughs as well.
I used to pick up a cup of coffee or some juice on the way to work - it is too much trouble to look for a parking space just for that so it was a matter of a quickly double parking - getting the coffee and back into the car to continue the trip. Coming from work I might do the same for a bottle of soda and some small items.
All that has changed when strict enforcement started - I now use the McDonald's drive-thru for my coffee and juice and shop for groceries only in stores that have parking lots. The neighborhood grocers have lost ALL of my business but I can honestly say I have not gotten a ticket in 4+ years.
$110 is a VERY APPROPRIATE fee for a parking ticket in NYC
What the heck a 15c token is now $150, why shouldn't a $15.00 parking ticket now be $150.
People, this is just NORMAL inflation.
The car owner can now aford a $30,000 car, they surely can pay a small $150.00 parking ticket if they haven't yet learned to read parking signs, of if they just simply don't give a rats posterior appendage.
Elias
There's a real simple solution to this...PARK LEGALLY! If they want to treble the fines, that's OK by me. Obey the law and you don't have a worry.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
restore his vitality and then he can see past the spreadsheets.
pretty good innuendo and double entendres in only eleven words, showing good economy of style. Four stars out of five.
Fare hike is inevitable, but by how much is the question. I've heard that the $1.50 1-way fare will be raised to $2.00 which is a substantial one-time jump.
Hopefully it won't have to be raised, but if it IS going to happen would hope that a 25. cent increase would be all that is needed.
You know the pattern. They announce that the fare will go to $2.00, but then they only raise it to $1.75, and we the people are relieved. I seriously think we'll see a REAL discount fare plan this time, but not based on time of day. There are simply too many parts of the city's economy that depend on people arriving at their desks by 9:30AM. Probably see $1.65 or so for Metrocard, $1.75 for sigle fares. I'd expect the day pass to hit $5-$5.50, the Weekly to run $20, the monthly $65-$67, and the x-bus fare to hit $3.50.
BTW, last time fares were adjusted, they were LOWERED on the x-bus from $4 to $3.
-Hank
Didn't the MTA spend X amount to buy the latest/most expensive cars for the LIRR, which now have to be sent back to repair cracks in the base
Spend X amount for the most computerized cars for the L and 6 so far
Ripping out and retiling every station when some of them could just use a good steam cleaning
$1.50 x around 460 stations x 1000 aveage passengers a day through each; that average may be way too low)
My point/question where is the money going that were constantly in debt (beside the basic electric, maintainance, and workers)… or did I partly answer my own question :-| Furthermore, I thought a few years back we were out of this debt?
Mostly the farebox goes to the employees, and maybe the electricity, and the employees is the biggest part of that. And they deserve a good living wage. You go cheap on the wage and you get crummy workers. TA needs reliable workers.
Elias
Workers do deserve a good living wage, but dont seem to get it. My biggest issue, the MTAs in debt, so wher do we get the money for certain things right now
Eg, the new heavily computerized L trains
Workers do deserve a good living wage, but dont seem to get it. My biggest issue, the MTAs in debt, so wher do we get the money for certain things right now
Eg, the new heavily computerized L trains
I've heard that the $1.50 1-way fare will be raised to $2.00 which is a substantial one-time jump.
And, just how different is this jump from the 0.15 to 0.20 jump. It is a small sum in the grand scheme of things. Those as use the service ought to pay for it. BUT! Remember that even those as have never set foot on a subway train also 'use' it if..
1) Their Employees use it.
2) If it reduces traffic so that they might use a car...
3) if it reduces polution in the city....
4) If it contributes to property values....
So some of the cost is rightly covered by the fare box, and some of the cost is rightly covered by other revenues (that have to be raised *SOMEHOW*)
Given standard cost accounting proceedures, it costs me $45.00 to drive round trip from here to Bismarck. Methinks the farebox can be a bargain!
Elias
And, just how different is this jump from the 0.15 to 0.20 jump. It is a small sum in the grand scheme of things. Those as use the service ought to pay for it. BUT! Remember that even those as have never set foot on a subway train also 'use' it if..
In fact the largest fare increase ever in the history of NYC, percentage-wise, was the jump from 5 cents to 10 cents...
Giuliani cut funds too, but did it with more finesse. It didn't help transit any, but he saved the City money by discontinuing $135 mil in student reimbursements. He ended up cutting the City contribution to $45 mil, which was a pretty good piece of political work.
But I was told three or more years ago that the bill would come due on the fare in 2002 because of the structure of the Metrocard deal and the capital bonding program. It happening in 2003 puts in right on schedule (or as much on schedule as the rest of the system0.
Remember that the average non-student fare, because of the Metrocard discounts and transfers, is now 10 cents less than it was in 1994, the last full year of the $1.25 fare. ($1.046 2002est vs. $1.145 1993). Factor in inflation, and in real dollars, it's dropped even more.
I think Bloomberg is running political interference by proposing a $2.00 fare. When the smoke clears I think we'll see $1.75, $70 MC monthly, but I expect the Fun Pass may go up a dollar or even two.
If the base fare was $1.75, then a $5 funpass would still be just under three trips (as now). Tourists would still find it good value. It would also be convenient at the vending machines (just a $5 bill, no change needed). If it went to $6, lots of people would put in $10 bills and you'd need to stock the machines with a lot more $1 coins to give the change!
The unlimited-ride Visitor Pass for the MBTA in Boston is $6.00 (base fare is $1 for subways and $0.75 for buses -- so break even is a minimum of six rides).
When the FunPass was unveiled, I was surprised how low the price was (break even of three trips, or four if using a value card obtained with $15/purchase "free trip.").
Are there other systems around that have their break even as low as three trips?
Fares may be outdated, but were correct in 1998.
London underground Zones 1-2 Travelcard = UKP 4.00
Zones 1-2 ticket price = UKP 1.20 to UKP 2.10, depending on destination
Commuter rail ticket from suburb = UKP 3.00 to UKP 15.00
London underground Travelcard add-on = commuter rail ticket plus UKP 1.20
So if you use an add-on, the break even is ONE underground ride. In fact, even better, the add-on is subject to all National Rail discounts (student, senior, etc), whilst the LUL tickets are not subject to the same discounts. So when I buy an add-on using a Student Advantage card, my break even point is 0.66 trips.
AEM7
When I was in London in May, I recall the adult, non-discounted fares to be:
Zone 1 = UKP 1.60
Zones 1/2 = UKP 1.90
Day Travel Card Zones 1/2 (Off-peak) = UKP 4.10
Day Travel Card Zones 1/2 (Peak) = UKP 5.30
So the break evens are three to four rides, depending.
"When I was in London in May, I recall the adult, non-discounted fares to be:
Zone 1 = UKP 1.60
Zones 1/2 = UKP 1.90
Day Travel Card Zones 1/2 (Off-peak) = UKP 4.10
Day Travel Card Zones 1/2 (Peak) = UKP 5.30
So the break evens are three to four rides, depending."
Those are the correct current fares. But One-Day Capitalcards from outside London (which AEM7 mentioned) include one round trip fare from wherever into London, and then on all buses and national rail trains within the Greater London boundary, the Docklands Light Railway, and Croydon Tramlink as well as the Underground -- and not just in zones 1&2, but all the numbered zones 1-6. They are very good value, since the add-on to the train fare is still only 1.90 pounds (I think) -- the equivalent of one single zone 1-2 fare gets you all day throughout London on all modes! [How do you think I do my railfanning, folks (8-) ? My ticket from Bedford, fifty miles out, includes all those goodies for 16.20 pounds; available from 9.15 a.m. on Monday-Friday, any time Sat. and Sun.]
Fytton.
SEPTA's day pass costs $5.50 and the base fare is $2.00, so this is 2 and 3/4 trips. However, tokens are $1.30, so the day pass is really 4 and 1/4 trips based on using tokens.
What do you mean base fare is $2, and tokens are $1.30. Why would someone pay $2, when you can pay $1.30? What does "base fare" mean?
Base fare on any system is usually defined as the undiscounted price for a single fare (one zone in a zone system) that a casual customer would pay by, say, dropping cash into a fare box, or buying a single token or single use pass.
Student/senior discounts, charges for zones, transfers, etc., are not part of, and are usually calculated in relation to, the base fare
In New York that is $1.50. I think the easiest discount is Philadelphia, where you pay $2.00 cash, but you can buy two tokens for $2.60--but note you buy two.
2 for $2.60 when 1 costs $2.00 is an amazingly good discount.
Consider at the opposite end of the spectrum, the Garden State Parkway, pre-EZPass. You could pay $.35, or get 30 tokens for $10.00! The same discount now applies to EZPass.
And now they're even talking about taking away that $.16667 discount because they can't afford it!
Sorry, that was $.016667 discount.
It depends on which toll plaza for casual users. Using the GSP in
June, my EZ Pass statement was .30, .32, .33 on same trip southbound.
The discount was not equivalent at each toll plaza.
Returned via 287 and to the devil with the GSP irractic tolls.
;-) Sparky
Well say so-long to GSP dscounts. The NJ EZ pass system is 400 million in debt and those are one of the cuts.
Bring back the tokens! I ran out in May and have been using coins since then; one booth out of three, though, the coins don't register properly and I have to wait 10 seconds and then honk before proceeding. Never had a problem with a token registering. As for Sleazy Pass... I think you know my opinion :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I didn't realize they got rid of the tokens altogether. So when they do away with EzPass discounts does that mean there will be no more discounts on the GSP or do they have other discount plans available?
No more discounts. And, for those who use Sleazy Pass, they're going to charge $1 per month just to have the silly thing.
Tokens can still be used, at least through the end of this year, but they stopped selling them at the end of last year. I don't use the Parkway that often - mainly when going to Branford (six tolls each way) - so the five rolls I bought in December lasted six months. It's not the discount I miss, it's the convenience of having just one token to toss in the basket rather than having to use two or more coins.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I get it. It would be the same as NY saying you could buy two tokens for let's say $2.50, saving $.50 on the single fare price of $1.50. Got it.
SEPTA has a history of raising the cash fare before raising the token fare, because regular riders won't complain about the cash fare increase, then later the token fare is raised to decrease the disparity.
The $2 price is if you pay cash. Its effectivly a "walk up" demand/money handling sur-charge.
The base fare is the fare for the first zone traveled. Each additional zone is 40-50 cents. Transfers also cost 40-50 cents.
But, that day pass also includes one "Regional Rail" ride to make it an even better deal ... the 3/4 Ton Crew got their money's worth on ours !
When the FunPass was unveiled, I was surprised how low the price was (break even of three trips, or four if using a value card obtained with $15/purchase "free trip.")
Three trips in either case. Three trips on a $15 card cost $4.09. The Fun Pass is the way to go, although if you're not sure if you'll be making two or three trips, you're better off using your pay-per-ride and possibly eating the 9 cents.
I think he is a genious forcing this into the open BEFORE Pataki gets reelected and still be technically in his camp.
and he knows how to spell genius, too!
(I think Bloomberg is running political interference by proposing a $2.00 fare. When the smoke clears I think we'll see $1.75, $70 MC monthly, but I expect the Fun Pass may go up a dollar or even two.)
If the TA is to take over the privates for $180 million, AND go without $250 mil in city operating funding AND $250 mil. in city capital funding, AND close a $650 mil. deficit, AND cover a bigger share of MTA debt to keep commuter rail fares fixed, AND cover a share of suburban bus line losses in a regional bus authority, I think $2.25 is more like it. Make that $90 for the monthly, and $25 for the weekly. The Fun Pass would be $6.
That's quite a menu?
Do you have any evidence or links to indicate any or all of these things are going to happen?
(Do you have any evidence or links to indicate any or all of these things are going to happen?)
Obviously, only that they could happen.
First the city subsidy to the private bus companies. It's been in the news that Bloomberg thinks the MTA should take over, sans the City's $180 million. In the same breath as saying this, Bloomberg mentioned the existing $660 million MTA deficit and the need to raise fares.
Second, just yesterday Bloomberg says the City can no longer pay the $250 milllion in operating funding and $250 million in capital funding to the MTA, and that the money will have to be made up elsewhere. Again he mentioned a fare increase.
Now we are up to $1.2 billion. The Transit Authority collects about $2 billion in fares.
Next, check out the New York City Partnership, NYC's Chamber of Commerce, to see if the outraged reaction to the massive debt in the 2000 to 2004 capital plan is still there. NYCP pointed out the debt refinancing, just completed, would merge NYCT and commuter rail debts previously kept separately, and back them by the transit fare. Thus it raised the risk that TA revenues would be used for commuter rail purposes. You don't expect it to go the other way, do you? But I could be double counting -- interest on former suburban bonds could already be part of the $660 million NYCT deficit.
Bloomberg and the MTA have also floated a Regional Bus Authority. In theory, this would not affect the finances, since the suburban lines cover about the same share of their costs at TA buses (though far less than the subway). But they also pay less, and don't run overnight. With service and pay parity on more lightly used routes, money would flow out of the city again.
I don't think Bloomberg is joking about $2.00. I think he's assuming more state aid. I don't think it's coming. $2.25, or deep service cuts.
I think you're seeing why I've been harping on Joe Bruno and his damned baseball stadium as much as I have. It's the SAME story upstate - all taxes have shot through the roof at the local level and in this election year, with Paturkey and cronies ASSURED of re-election, you can rest assured localities can all go to hell since Paturkey and Bruno spent the "rainy day fund" ALREADY on crap like this baseball stadium and other "member pork."
Answer is flat out "no money available from the state" and tax collections are down over 20% which means that FURTHER retrenchment from monies ALREADY budgetted is an inevitability. We're in DEEP doodoo since the national Enron party didn't cough up the money for New York after the attacks as promised AND they're claiming that they want to put us even FURTHER "in de hole" with ANOTHER "tax cut" ... woe is us.
Only one person bit on the BusTalk forum; here goes my theory:
I think that Mayor Bloomberg might pull the stunt of the year. Why does my mind itch that we are going to see a franchise-only fare hike?
Let's take a look at the signs:
1) Mr. Bloomberg continues to gripe about the $175 million subsidy to the seven private lines. He believes that MTA control will save him $175 million per year. Of course, we know this is rubbish. It will take at least $50 million to integrate the franchise lines into the TA system because a good chunk of the fleet is at retirement age. Plus, the city must match any state money for city transit services. Total savings will only be around $20 million/year, if that much.
2) Pataki needs to get re-elected. But seriously, how many voters know that New York City Transit is part of a STATE agency? I'll say 20% to be generous. That's 9% of aggravated people who won't vote for Pataki statewide. That's the gamble Bloomberg is taking because riders in the suburbs are much more closely tied to state government than the city (hence, the screwy state formulas that shortchange NYC in many areas go by unchallenged). Since Bloomberg already has his job, the franchise fares could go up in September, making it a little easier for the MTA to raise their fares to match. This could also generate more revenue, except that Queens ridership will be decimated after the strike for many years to come, so it will yield a net revenue LOSS.
3) There seems to be a New Jersey Transit-style issue going on as well. We don't know what the behind-the-scenes talk is, but if the Republicans are letting Bloomberg talk fare hike, that means that something could happen BEFORE the election. I doubt that MTA will lead the action because of political sensitivities, but if the franchises go up to $2 for local and limited-stop services and $4 for express services, then New York City Transit can simply say that they are matching those fares. This protects commuter rail, suburban bus, and bridge/tunnel users (whom Pataki is depending on for support) from an immediate hike. In addition, it would look really good to protect all fares except NYC mass transit from a fare hike to those communities. Remember that 56% of the state's population lives OUTSIDE of New York City. Pataki can win WITHOUT US!
Here's the NJT connection: A fall franchise hike in September would be followed quickly by a NYC Transit "match", just like DOT does normally with an MTA fare change. Suburban fares don't move until after the election, when EVERYBODY doles out more. That's right, EVERYBODY. There could be TWO successive fare hikes because lots of people are saying that 50 cents is too big of a jump. So there could be TWO hikes to get to $2 (or even $2.10...remember the $1.15 fare not so long ago?) in order to appease certain critics within 12 months of each other.
4) Another scenario: Franchise fares go up, but not MTA. Then, everybody would want the franchise lines to go to the MTA and a "severance" package could be worked for early contract termination to the private companies. So, as a campaigning tool, Pataki would promise to have the MTA gobble it up and then the fare hike would be packaged into this. A businessman would love this strategy.
Either way, I think a franchise fare hike is coming...and it'll be here by September. Plus, a New York City Transit fare hike could happen BEFORE the election as well, making Pataki widely popular in other parts of the state for holding their fares steady "at the expense" of NYC.
Of course, any hike without benefits (more service, express bus lane for SI etc.) would just be enough for private, unsubsidzed transit to return and make money in the process. Anyone want stock in Apple Core Transit?
NICE YUMMY CHEWY POST! Oh how I wish our little company wasn't fighting for its life right now and that I had the time to take those on (and be available to argue the fine points in the coming days) ... I think ANY of the scenarios are possible and probably best left to be discussed by others who are into the minutae of the numbers and such.
Lemme throw an "upstate perspective" into the mix so you can have another entire view of all this ... Those of us who live upstate KNOW that New York City is bled dry by the STATE politicos. All of us up here wave our tin cups at you in a gesture of moral support. :)
FIRST off, I don't believe for a second that "Mayor Mike" is being Machiavellian AT ALL. What the poor boy is facing is a disaster of biblical proportions that would put Abe Beame and Dave Dinkins to shame in the sheer SEVERITY of it all. New York City in bankruptcy by the end of THIS year is not out of the question. Economic downturns have always put NYC on a greased rail, put the losses due to the terrorist attacks on top and NYC is in one royal mess just on general principle alone financially.
So, in addition to the generic shortfalls of a crappy economy (thank ya, Shrub) we also have all the losses brought about by the attacks which have left NYC in a far further mess than a piddly "bad economy" and all that brings. In addition, New York City is bled dry to service the SUBURBS around it that vote for the very people who have created this mess in their glaring ineptitude.
Just so you know, those of us upstate do NOT have "transit," have schools and libraries that make Appalachia look like an improvement and pay outrageous taxes also in order to support the rich suburbs surrounding New York City who have the STATE as their instrument of funding to the detriment of the city AND the rural areas of the state.
Back to Mayor Mike though, his balls are in a vise. He's short of money and the projected budget is already above the amount of money coming in as the economy heads south and thus I'm certain he and the city council have no choice but to find money anywhere they can and cut every expense they can just to keep things running at all. Meanwhile, the suburbs are demanding their tax cut and full share of "baseball stadiums" at everybody else's expense.
But if the bus companies can be taken off the books, it means police won't have to be fired. If a fare increase takes some pressure off the schools, then the libraries won't have to close and I suspect all of this is Mayor Mike trying to see if he can get the state legislature and the governor to kick up some more money to aid the city. Sadly, won't happen. The state is already 20% behind in collections as it is NOW. And in an election year, the chickensheets WON'T raise taxes to make up the difference even if it means that they'll go up by TWICE as much next year. Just the way politicos are ...
But I wouldn't blame Mike - like Beame and Dinkins, he's like the railroader in trouble. He's standing NEAR the wreck and thus the fingers are pointing at him because he's there. Took a good number of years to MAKE this mess and the very same politicos that created this mess WILL get re-elected as their reward, you wait and see. Meanwhile Mike will be left holding the (empty) bag when the cops arrive.
(Those of us who live upstate KNOW that New York City is bled dry by the STATE politicos. All of us up here wave our tin cups at you in a gesture of moral support. :)
No one knows this. Everyone believes the opposite, since that's what they have been told for decades, and they hate us for it. In any event, for every dollar Upstate drains the City in unfair school, transport, etc funding, New York City drains upstate by 80 cents in excessive Medicaid spending. At some times in the past, the net ripoff might have been the other way around. The point is, everyone is being ripped off by NYC's overpriced health and social services complex, upstate's pork, and all the special tax deals for the special people. Much of the burden is shifted to the local level for local officials to deal out the pain.
Not that it matters, but DO NOT VOTE FOR ANY INCUMBENT STATE OF NEW YORK ELECTED OFFICIAL!
Amen and Amen ... but watch the porcine get re-upped since the STATE government is seen in NYC only as those nice guys behind the "if I had a million dollars" Looto thingy. :)
Ah, so bloomberg is big evil huh?
Right up until the end, ghooliani tried to paint a picture that the city finances were fine, all the while making last minute deals for us to throw billions into building new stadiums that we don't need(which we can't afford, nor do they generate the money we'd have to spend to build them) and the deal to GIVE AWAY the high line to property owners along the route for FREE - something that thankfully was negated in the courts.
ghooliani was no saint, and i'm glad to see him the hell out of office. shooting bloomberg is simply shooting the messenger. the city on a whole needs to drag itself out of this mess. I personally rather have a mayor that is at least has some reality in his head, rather than one who in the end tried to give away parts of the city to his rich pals while arrogently parading around with his mistress. May rudys kids grow up to hate his miserable self induldgant carcass. when he dies, i hope they don't bother showing up at his funeral... Toss his ass in a pine box and ship it to potters field.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man you are rough!!! (But accurate)
LOL!
There is a 100% probability of a fare hike by April 2003. It's simply time, before we see another nickel fare fiasco.
-Hank
I did the math, and using the percentage method I see the following for both $1.75 and $2./00
The first figure is for $1.75 and the second for $2.00
Express bus $3.00---------------3.50/ 4.00
Fun Pass $4.00------------------5.00/ 5.50
7 day $17.00-------------------20.00/ 23.00
30 day $63.00------------------74.00/ 84.00
Express bus 30 day %120.00----140.00/160.00
using the cent method I get the same as above.
An option I see is to raise token prices and keep per ride MetroCard the same ( and increase unlmited MetroCard prices to the equivalent token price.)
DISCLAIMER: this post is personal opinion based on mathematics (Artihmetic) and is not an official statement of MTA, NYCT, TWU or any governmental quasi-governmental body.
Not just the fare goes up! A Slice of pizza too!!!!!!!!!!!!!THIS IS F****** OUTRAGEOUS
The point is the pizza slice has historically been of equivalent cost. Pizza is now more expensive than a subway ride, but still cheaper than a gallon of milk. It is, however, higher than a gallon of gasoline.
-Hank
Pizza's only been around in New York City since about the mid-'50s, when the price was 15 cents, and so was the subway fare.
But going back further, the price of a Nathan's frank (sorry .. a much better New York thing than pizza) tracked the fare from 5 cents on.
So how much is a Nathan's Frank at Coney Island now? How much do you pay for a monthly FrankoCard?
Nathan's frank at non-Coney Island location runs me $1.75
-Hank
Well there you go then The subway fare will be $1.75!
Bingo! LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
That is worth considering!
>>>How much do you pay for a monthly FrankoCard? <<<
What is a FrankoCard?
Peace,
ANDEE
A monthly unlimited Nathan's Frankfurter eating pass. The hot dog equivalent of a Metrocard.
I can dream, can't I? :)
>>>Bloomberg is once again cutting funds. I hope he dies. <<<
That remark is unworthy of Subtalk.
However, I question his wilingness to raise fares, which would essentially be a tax hike on working class New Yorkers.
When mistakes are made that put NYC's finances in the red, politicians always ask me to pay more taxes or fares. They should get their own practices in order first.
I do think that along with a $2 fare you can kiss the Second Avenue goodbye, and downtown you will get a bare bones 'transit hub' consisting of a maze of passages a la Times Square and maybe a people mover or two.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Mayor does not raise fares. The MTA Board, which is controlled by the Governor (though the Mayor does have some representatives on it), is the entity that would ultimately have to set and approve any fare increase.
David
If Bloomberg wants to make up the deficit, I suggest he toll the East River bridges and let the honking hordes that choke the city streets subsidize the subways and trains, in part. This would help mass transit and get some of the drivers off the streets. Podhoretz of the Post may like to see the streets jammed with cars (to him, traffic jams=$$$$) but I'd just like some more peace and quiet, and maintain the $1.50 fare...
www.forgottem-ny.com
He's already working on that.
-Hank
You wouldn't be saying that if you had a car.
I think Bloomburg will be using a car soon. Imagine him getting on a train and the people see him?
I own a car, and I say: "Set those tolls at $15.00 during rush hours"
Elias
I own a car, use it, live in NYC, and support tolls on the East River bridges.
Then you'll love the traffic backed up in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx.
Only if you're clueless. No booths, EZPass only. Paying cash? Use the Midtown or Brooklyn-Battery Tunnels, or the Triborough Bridge.
-Hank
Here's a site that makes a good argument for the greater use of tolls:
Click Here
I agree with a lot of what they write and they also address the issue of traffic shifting to toll free roads.
Think they are getting enough money from those red light cameras; snapping peoples' license and sending you tickets.
I question those two because my dad got a ticket one of those tickets in the mail from a camera on Merrick Blvd. License was the same except for one number, meaning they sent it to the wrong person. Also HE LIVES AND WORKS IN BROOKLYN
Theres is no way you could toll the bridges, traffic alone would be insane 24 hours a day
Id like to know what happened to the surplus we had a few years back
Theres is no way you could toll the bridges, traffic alone would be insane 24 hours a day
You are mistaken.
It is easy to toll those bridges, and it won't hurt the traffic a bit either.
(The Box, luke.... Think outside the box, Luke)
Oh Sorry.....
First you regulate what sort of traffic may be on the bridge. I.e. NO TRUCKS!
Then you require all vehicles wishing to use the bridge to have an EZPass.
No Pass, the officer pulls you out of the traffic flow, and you can re-route your trip via Queens Midtown or Brooklyn Battery.
Elias
Just thinking of tolls at Adams Street (Brooklyn Bridge) and Flatbush Ave Extension (Manhattan Bridge) CAn go one up from EZPass. Install a big metal strip in the road at the entrance of the bridge and a bar code under a car; records everytime you cross and charges it, send you a bill at the end of the month (then again, who wants another bill in the month).
Just seems wrong, its not like ur going out of the city
"Just seems wrong, its not like ur going out of the city "
Lots of tolls already within the city. Lots of tolls on bridges less substantial than the four free East River bridges.
Actually, If I were mayor (so DON'T VOTE FOR ME!) I'd just close the CBD to all cars. Draw the line at 59th Street.
NO PRIVATE VEHICLES WIHTOUT PERMIT.
Delivery trucks etc. can form a cooperative and negeotiate permits, including times, entry points, and streets and parking places to be used.
Those who as *LIVE* in the CBD AND own (lease) an off street parking place.
For everything else, there's Metrocard!
Elias
-No wonder he can't find a wife. -
Sounds just like what i said to one of my teachers last year. Just my 2 cents...
He's not the greatest but he's still a ZILLION times better than Guilliani!!!
Time will either prove or disprove your statement.
But it will not repair the broken tag.
Ah, maybe I just like very big responses!!!
A small fare hike of $0.25 is both fair and acceptable. Many Commuters especially in two fare zone like myself have bennifited greatly by the reduction of two fare zones and merocard discounts. Th
The MTA failed to put away enough money during the boom times of the late 90's to cover future short falls. Much of the surplus came from MTA bridge and tunnel tolls and telecomunication surcharges.
With that said they have taken some steps to moternize the subway system in the rigt direction.
Here's my plan.
1)Reduce station agent positions to one per station. Many stations such as 42nd street don't need multiple manned entraces in the age of MVM's. In adddition many stores and newstands sell metrocards. We can not afford the luxury of token booth clerks. The argument that they make a person downstairs 300ft up a platform safer is hog wash. That person is served just as well by a emergency call box such as the untis installed at atlantic avenue on the Q
2)Run 1/2 length trains on all lines overnights utilizing OPTO. Run 1 additional run per hour to reduce overcrowding concerns. I know this was tried in the late 70's, but if implimented correctly it is a win win for both Train operators and commutters and taxpayers. I realize that older equiptment does not have full width cabs. Some lines will need to run full length trains because of the equiptment issue.
3)Shut off the lights at night in temporary token booths ans Install motion detectors in areas closed off at night.
4)Defere cosmetic station improvements
5)Consolidate HR and other back end operations of LIRR Metro North and NYC Transit including reducing middle management suits.
We need to think outside the box to preserved what we have. The best dam subway system in the world. I have been hooked ever since my dad took me on my first trip on the brighton line and held me up to tje rail fan window.
I am an operations autitor for a major NY bank that is appalled by the waste's that exist in the Subway system. Every time I pass the part time token boothe at the vouries ave end of sheapsehead bay station and the light are on it eats me up inside
OK. Bear with me. We build the Yankees a new stadium if they sign an agreement that they must stay in NYC for at least 50 years. Then, we impose a new tax requiring all ball players in NYC to give 1% of their salaries to the city. This is at least something like ten billion dollars. We could also agree to provide free steroids to the teams. What do you think? ;)
Bear in mind that I hate baseball.
I think Boss George will be making reservations for New Jersey.
The Yankees payroll is $135 million this year, how do you get $10 billion from 1% times 50? That's only $6.7 million. Also, the Yankees already DO give a higher percentage to the city, it's called income tax. Does NYC have a local income tax, or just a state?
NYC income tax is 4% for individuals...not sure what it would be for corporations, but the sole proprieters are taxed twice by NYC on their incomes (8%).
Geez. I thought their salaries added up to more than that. I actually (sniff) feel sorry for those guys now. And, if you believe that, I've got some prime real estate in Afghanastan to sell.
I'd prefer somewhere with air cover, personally.
Sell the $5 number plates of the retired redbirds...
better LATE than NEVER...
Better yet, of course, is to rent out concourse and retail space in the Subway. Bring back the HotDog Vendors, Resturants and more. We got primo real estate with guarnteed pedestrian flow.
Let a fancy Resturant be built on an abandoned platform, or in a large concourse... not only will they pay rent, but they will also clean up and rebuild and revitalize the areas.
AND THEY WILL HAVE WORKING RESTROOMS!
Wake up and USE the resources.
Elias
I think the abandoned lower level of the 42nd Street Station (former Aqueduct Special track) would be a prime location for a restaurant.
Lets recruit large groups of little children and SELL CHOCOLATE! I couldn't resist :)
They should bring back "Miss Turnstiles"; you know, that beauty of the month whose picture was posted on subway cars (and who was highlighted in the 1949 Gene Kelly/Frank Sinatra movie "On the Town)? Having pictures of some beautiful babes gracing the subway cars would do much to improve the daily commute.
E_DOG
I recall her being called "Miss Subways" not "Miss Turnstiles"
Peace,
ANDEE
Your both correct. It's was Miss Turnstile in the Movie "On The Town", a Hollywood reference to Miss Subways, which it was in reality.
;-) Sparky
Thanks for the clarification, Sparky.
Peace,
ANDEE
Never mind Miss Turnstiles/Subways.....how about MISS RAILFAN WINDOW !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Why not just have female foamers? We need to go out and promote railfanning as a legit activity for girls. Then these girls will grow up to be girlie foamers. Instead of getting little Barbie dolls they will get little Miss R142's (need a catchier name than that). Instead of changing nappies on dolls they will be changing traction motors on little subway cars. When they grow up, instead of reading COSMOSPOLITAN they will be reading the METROPOLITAN. Instead of spending their money on their makeup they will be spending their money on the latest MTA-sanctions paint and painting their cars with it, along with authentic MTA F-line round bumper sticker.
Then we'd have some misses that actually share our interests. No need for Miss Turnstiles or Miss Railfan Window. We'll have real women who love the subways.
AEM7
No, lets not bring back the railfan window... It's been dead for too long.
I saw these cars:
8157-8160/8105-8108
8152-8156/8169-8172
8141-8144/8145-8148
8161-8164/8165-8168
8125-8128/8129-8132
8109-8112/8133-8136
The usual disclaimer applies.
This weekend has split L service again and as suchj I do not expect to see R143 cars **unless** they will run on the L shuttle while I work the line from 8av to Bedford. If my guess is right,I expcct they'll be out for Monday Rush hour. If the R143 cars are out and I see them this weekend then I'll post before Monday PM.
Thanks for your continued updates, they are welcomed!
Click Here
At least we now know where they went. Perhaps HeyPaul can put one in his apartment. LOL
I could put it in my driveway, but I don't think my wife will let me.
Maybe i can take the bathroom from one of the cars and put it in my dorm room.
I have eight acres and single phase 13 Kvac. Need power and free delivery. Have my own brake handle and reversor key. CI Peter
If I could get plates for it, I could put it on the street. But moving it when the street sweeper comes would be a pain.
Speaking of street sweeping, I left for work today at the rare time (for me) of 12:20pm and since it was Thursday, all the cars on 190th St in Washington Heights were double parked on the south side of the street. I always wondered where everyone moved their cars to on street cleaning day. Is that legal? Is that what everyone does throughout the city?
No it is not legal, but it is "overlooked". Yes it is done that way all over the city.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just put rubber ties on it & make it "trackless", then you can double park with everyone else < G >
It would give the tow truck operator a heart attack.
Right ... they would need at least two plus a Sky Hook < G >
So bring it out here to Staten Island, where we don't have alternate side parking.
Quick business trip into New York for meetings on Thursday and Friday, plus visits with family on Lon Gisland on Saturday. So, a bit of time for sub-fanning.
Got into New York fairly early on Wednesday, checked into the hotel (on Central Park South), and left shortly after 6:00 PM. Figured I'd head for Coney Island. Hey, it's probably been over 20 years since I was last there.
Walked over to the 5th Ave BMT station (I'm old, to me it's still the BMT), and investigated the MVM. Decided to spring for a $15.00 metrocard and get the discount. It's good for a year, and I'm sure I'll be back a couple of times before it expires. The Metrocard looks a lot like a CTA farecard. However, on the CTA, you 'dip' the card, and here in NY, you 'swipe' it.
The first train to arrive was an N train, R32s, nice railfan window. Gee, I remember when the R32s were brand spanking new. The train was signed "Kings Highway" (don't they run to 86th St?). Rode it as far as 36th St. Brooklyn. Kind of fun to ride through the Montague St tunnel, line I used to frequent, albeit 35-40 years ago. Finally saw the headings for the tunnel to Staten Island south of Whitehall St. (never noticed them when I rode the line every day, but I've seen them mentioned here).
At DeKalb, a nice young man (said he was in 8th grade) joined me at the railfan window, and we talked a bit about recreational subway riding. He's apparently new to it -- not a native New Yorker, said he was born in China but lives in NY now.
Got off at 36th, and transferred to the M. Destination sign on first car said '9th Ave.', but conductor announced "M train to Bay Parkway" and I did ride it as far as Bay Parkway. R42, also good railfan window. Enjoyed the old tunnel between 4th and 9th Aves. and the old ramps which at one time led to the 5th Ave. El. Tried to pick out some landmarks I recognized along the West End line.
Long wait (nearly 15 min) for a W to Coney Island at Bay Parkway. Someone on platform complaining about the lousy service. W train was R68a, could see a bit out the front through some clear plastic over the glass in the cab window, but not a very good view. Transverse cabs may be great for the TOs, but they're lousy for railfans.
Got to Coney Island -- not much left of the old station -- and headed to Nathan's for dinner. Skipped the ritual hot dog (I've grown to like Chicago style hot dogs better) in favor of fried clams and some of Nathan's hand cut fries. After eating, walked around a bit. Noticed the new baseball stadium -- wasn't aware that it had been built on the site of the old Steeplechase Park -- brings back memories. The smells (hot dogs, fries, sour milk, salt air, all mixed together) also brought back memories.
Bought a T shirt for my granddaughter in a souvenier shop, walked by the Wonder Wheel and the Cyclone, and wound up at West 8th St Station. Long walk up stairs to the Brighton Line platform! But, wouldn't miss a chance to ride on my old home line (Neck Road was my home station). Q train is R68s, so no railfain windows, so I got a nice side window seat to watch the scenery roll by. Got off at Prospect Park for a quick trip up and back on the newly rebuilt Franklin Shuttle line, then back on a Q train into the city, including the wonderful view from the Manhattan Bridge. Transferred at Union Square for an N train of R40/slants (complete with railfan window) for the rest of the trip to 5th Ave.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed,
Your trip sounded great! Were you alone on this excursion? I have been told if I were to ever return to the city, and ride the subways, that I had better have six armed guards with me, for protection.
>>> I have been told if I were to ever return to the city, and ride the subways, that I had better have six armed guards with me, for protection. <<<
That can happen if you don't pay your bookie! :-)
Tom
I've never felt unsafe on the NY subway. Started riding alone when I was about 9 years old, and been doing it ever since.
Nice part about NY is that, even at 10:00 PM, there are lots of people out and around, both on the streets and on the subway.
-- Ed Sachs
You are probably the only person ever to stay at a Central Pk S. hotel ever to take the subway to Coney Island!!! :)
You are probably the only person ever to stay at a Central Pk S. hotel ever to take the subway to Coney Island!!! :)
I'll bet there are at least 20 or 30 other SubTalk participants who would do the same!
-- Ed Sachs
One of the highlights of a trip to Coney Island for me (besides the Cyclone) is a session on the bumper cars, the one facing Surf Avenue. I don't drive an automobile, so crashing into other cars is really great fun, especially when some of the other drivers are teenage boys. Oh, and they play disco music at high volume. After so many "accidents", I end up in a state of hysterical exhaustion from laughing. (Bumper cars aren't on rails, but they do use a "trolley-like" current collector, so this isn't a totally off-topic remark.)
sounds like a great ride! Too bad you didn't ride the Q on a weekday when you could have gotten an R40 slant on the express.
This weekends there will be slants (and R-32's and R-68's) running on the Brighton express, northbound only. But they'll be signed as N's. Southbounds it'll just be R-68's on the express.
Ed, You should have bought a "FUN pass" vs. that $15 value card
Seriously, glad you found the time & enjoyed the experience down memory lane.
Mr t__:^)
While surfing around to verify my recollection on the London Underground fares, I found The Tube site. Clicking on a bit, it looks like from their real-time system status page there's a strike action.
Geez, that's pretty bad. I didn't know labour unrest in that 3rd world country has reached this level. I'm glad I bailed. The ScotRail strike in 2001 dragged out over six months with many one-day stoppages.
When was the last time they've had any significant transit/railroad strike over here?
AEM7
"When was the last time they've had any significant transit/railroad strike over here?"
I believe SEPTA walked out a few years ago, can't remember the details, I wasn't that intrested in Transit back then, all I remember was the local news reporting from 69th street terminal a whole bunch. I think it was just the B/O and Trolley/LRV operators, Regional Rail stayed on the job.
Anyone know anything more about this?
At least the DLR is running a normal service - I don't know about he buses.
Looks like it strike season in Europe again. You know all they want is a vacation day to go to the shore. In France the country goes on strike for the entire month of August for vacation purposes.
With Brit pants down below knees, Axis has another shot. CI peter
I took my soudn meter to third ave on the L the other day. Wow!
on A dVB rating the peak was 105 and on C rtating it was 90 dB.
Measurements were taken from the bench on the platform for Q1 Track for rtains entering either direction on Q2 Track. (G.O. in effect had single tracking on Q2 track).
Subway-Buff, I would have loved to take readings back in the 60s on the lower level platform of the 72nd Street station on the 8th Ave IND, when two R1/9 expresses were roaring through -- and two R1/9 locals screeching to a halt.
What is the range of "pleasant" and soft sounds, "medium" sounds, and loud sounds like the subway? (in terms of decibels)
normal conversation is 50db, normal office is 60, traffic on as medium street is 60db. Loud noise is 70 db. Over 80 is dangerous to hearing and over 120 can be painful. OSHA requires hearing protection if the 8 hopur time weighted averag is 80 db on the A scale or higher.
Over 80 is dangerous to hearing and over 120 can be painful. OSHA requires hearing protection if the 8 hopur time weighted averag is 80 db on the A scale or higher.
Federal law regulating the exposure of workers to noise levels in excess of 80 dbA predates OSHA.
Here's a comparsion chart
Decibels are measured on a power of 10 scale. In other words, 90 dB is 10 times greater than 80 dB. 90 dB is 100,000 times greater than 40 dB.
Try sleeping in the end of an R142...like sticking your head inside an Electrolux. So a couple of Db's...so what. How many of you kids endured the screatching wheel flanges at 14th Street??? I read of squeaky R142 brakes...really not so bad...noise lets you know your hearing functions beyond your Walkman and you're not riding in a Redbird. CI peter
Wow! on A dVB rating the peak was 105 and on C rtating it was 90 dB.
105 dbA complies with state law for noise level within a station. (NYS Public Authorities Law Section 1204-A.)
There are some intracacies for using sound level meters. The meter must be free from any reflected sound. This means that one cannot hold a meter in front of them and expect to look at the meter. The body is reflecting or absorbing sound. The proper procedure is to either have a detachable microphone mounted on a tripod away from people or to hold the meter at arm's length to one side of the body. Two people are usually required to take readings, if the second option is used. One to hold the meter and another person also at arm's length away from the meter to write down the readings.
My measurements were not scientifically done but just to test my meter which was bought from Radio Shack. My meter is not certified for professional use.
I just took the readings to get a rough idea.
What? :)
--Mark
Lets all find the closest Redbird and give it a hug. Then chain yourself to it and wear a shirt saying " IF YOU REEF THE BIRD, YOU REEF ME TOO". And for those of you that are wondering , no I am not under a Blissful High, or suffering severe sleep deprivation.
I don't mind giving the redbird a hug, certainly they are a nostolgic. However, their time to be retired has come...don't you see how they are corroding? -Nick
Well some are not evident and some of them actually are in good shape for their age.
Well some are not evident and some of them actually are in good shape for their age.
I'll really miss the Redbirds on the #2 line. Is there still one left?
At least one. I think I saw it yesterday or the day before.
#2 Line #6 inspection crew still does Redbirds. #5 line inspection crews have more than twenty trainsts left before 'Neptune Fleet.' CI Peter: Troubles/backfill #5 line
I live near the #4. It gives me such a thrill to see the Red Birds go by. I will miss them when they are gone. Although I hope that that will not be too soon. I think that they have the classiest paint scheme.
I cannot wait to see em in person no matter what !!!! YEA I LOVE EM !
LOL LOL LOL LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!
I just got through watching an old 1948 movie called "The Naked City". There are great scenes of the Manhattan Bridge and the various and sundry subway trains that traversed that span at the time. Yes, I saw parts of three Triplexes but couldn't tell if they were the Sea Beach or the Brighton Beach since each used the TP cars. Since my train used the Triplex exclusively it stands to reason that one of them was a Sea Beach. There was also a Standard doing its thing. What amazed me was that the Manny B had this big walkway where kids frollicked and adults walked their dogs. The bad guy ran up the steps to the Manny B on the Manhattan side and eventually met his end when he was shot by police officers and he cascaded down from the top of the bridge. Has anyone ever seen the picture? Great scenes. I thought I would share this with you.
Wasn't there a scene in the movie where one of the defectives took the "7" train home and got off a Low V at one of the stations?
Freudian slip (of the fingers)? "defective"
No Fraudian slip. I was wondering if anyone was going to catch that. I always call them that. Sort of a rivalry. I guess because I've been part of Patrol for 21 years.
I have seen the Naked City Twice and I'd gamble on it that it isthe WillY B not the Manny B. Big wide walkway, only on the Willy B; saw plenty of standards may have been a scene on Manny that I forgot but ht Willy the only one I remember.
There was a walkway on the Manny B. With all the bridge work there that last 10-15 years, it doesn't go all the way across anymore.
Yes it does, although it didn't when it first reopened last May.
It was the Manny B. I saw three Triplexes and they didn't run onthe Willy. Perhaps there were scenes filmed on both bridges but certainly the Manhattan Bridge was in the picture.
I have a question in this movie there's a scene when one of the detectives is talking to a beat cop.In the background, you see what looks like a Low V train going by, the scene was at night, I thought it might of been a Flushing Low V or something
Yes I do remember it because walked across on all 4 of the original bridges back in the 50's...the nice wide walkway was on the Willy, Brooklyn's was nice, and Manny and Queensborough had those nasty narrow ones that as a child I was afraid of being on, no good reason. I'll have to watch that show again and identify some other scenes, the Willy B scenes at the end are the only ones I remember.
I'm pretty sure the scene is the Williamsburg Bridge. By the way, the station house scenes were the actual Midtown North Station House on 54th Street.
Fred; The closing scenes are on the Willy B with plenty of Standards.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Naked City was one of the finest "New York" films ever made.
I remember a lot of it though I haven't been able to see it in person since something like 1978. Many fine scenes of the city in general, all on locations which was a major undertaking in those days. Plenty of subway settings as described above.
For "period" New York films, I also highly recommend a 1951 epic entitled "The Littlest Fugitive." Mostly set in & around Coney Island, again on location. There is a brief scene of the kid riding an "el train" to CI, which I think was a Culver Line set of B-Types.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
For alot of NY scenes how about "Bye Bye Braverman" about 4 guys driving all over Brooklyn in a VW Beetle looking for a funeral home?
What amazed me was that the Manny B had this big walkway where kids frollicked and adults walked their dogs. The bad guy ran up the steps to the Manny B on the Manhattan side and eventually met his end when he was shot by police officers and he cascaded down from the top of the bridge. Has anyone ever seen the picture?
I've seen the picture. The final scenes take place on the Williamsburg Bridge.
The Manhattan Bridge was built with two walkways that were cantilevered outside of the bridge and outside of the subway tracks on the lower level. The Williamsburg Bridge was built with two walkways that were located directly over the trolley tracks and inboard. Both bridges had one of their walkways removed as a security measure during 1943 to prevent people from viewing the Brooklyn Navy Yard. The southern walkway on the Williamsburg and the northern walkway on the Manhattan were removed. Up until the most recent reconstruction, there were still signs on the Williamsburg cautioning people from taking any photographs on the brigde.
If you are on the tracks and a train is coming, as an alternative to having to avoid the train, can you locate a trip arm and {with your bare hands} lift it to cause a BIE to save your life? {This is assuming you have the time to do so. I assume many people would just take all the time to get away from the train.} How hard is the trip arm to lift manually?
How far can you possibly run away from the trip arm if you see a train coming? Even if the train goes BIE, it still takes distance for it to stop. It might even be selfish (can't think of a better word) of you to put a train load of people in danger when the train goes BIE rather than yourself to death when the train hits you.
Has anyone ever been killed by a BIE? I'm not counting injuries, because yes, the life of one is more important to me than a train load of injuries.
Just get the $^%%^ off the tracks you dope.
What kind of question is this supposed to be? Why would you waste your time trying to trip a train when you'll still have to go under it? Also there isn't always guaranteed clearance to be safe under a train and you'll be wasting your time trying to trip a train when the train will be going under you anyway?
I doubt anyone will be on the tracks between station stops and some tunnels do not provide enough light for you to see clearly.
No, that is totally not happening. You'd have to exert a considerable
amount of force to overcome the electric motor, solenoid or air
piston (depending on the stop type) which is holding the stop down
in the clear position. You'd also have to continue to hold the
stop arm up as the train approached. Not to mention that you'd
have to arrange to fall onto the tracks at precisely the location
of a stop.
Exactly. The train would have to hit you anyhow if you'd be holding up a stop-arm to trip a train....no brainer (instead of getting run over completely, perhaps you'd lost some fingers).
Ah Hem... The Tripcock is UNDER the train. For this to work you would have to hold the tripcock up while the train ran over you.
Not to mention the fact that a train goining into BIE still requires about 300' or so to stop.
Can you say 12-9
Elias
He's talking about stop arms, not "car bourne stopping devices"
Correct. I understood that, but mis-spoke a little.
But it will not do to hold the stop arm up because the front of the car will squish you before the trip-cock reaches the stop arm.
Elias
Years ago a transit worker told me that you could activate the trip arm by inserting a quarter (or any piece of metal that conducts electricity) in a circuit that is located between or near the tracks. I forgot the details - does anyone know of this "trick" and if it really existed?
Yes, you "close" the IJ (insulated joint) gap between two track sections. Kids, don't try this at home. :)
T'cha, but the signals will go red, also.
Plus the arm at the IJ in question will stay down anyhew.
When you remove the key or quarter from both sides of the IJ, the signal sruns through a self diagnostic procedure by keeping the signal at danger until the stop arm cycles to trip, then clear before the signal resets the display to the condition of the block it governs. Once the arm goes up, it will go back clear if the block allows it.
OK ... OK ... I didn't want to do more than a HINT, but apparently youse guys wanna dish the dirt. Heh. You do the coin op, then shunt rail to rail with a biggie clip lead across the next block and she'll stay red and armed. Happy now? :)
Always wary of telling kids how to screw up the railroad, it's always been one of my own things to give a general idea but not enough to be "practical" ... tomorrow's lesson - how to emulate Pelham 123 the RIGHT way, allowing a train to barrel through a mountain of raised trip arms without a BIE. Stay tuned. Heh.
Hmmm, Harry is having those mysterious subject line
cookie problems again!
You do
the coin op, then shunt rail to rail with a biggie clip lead across the next block and she'll stay red and armed.
That is not true for just about every signal type. If the arm
is down and the signal is clear, shunting the track circuit in
advance of the signal is basically indistinguishable from the
normal passage of a train. The arm will retain. The arm will
come up on the signal to the _rear_.
Yeah, I should have been more clear in what I had posted, was in a rush and messed it up. When I wrote "next block" I had meant shunting the one ahead to bring that one up. Don't mind me, catching up with my workload - I'll be a lot more clear when I'm not quite as preoccupied as I've been. Thanks for saving me the embarassment at least of warning that sometimes just one gator clip of wire often isn't enough track current to do the trick - I've seen situations where 4 cars sometimes didn't trigger the track circuits properly under the right circumstances.
See what I mean? Didn't finish the first thought in the previous. Having BEEN a motorman with the TA, when I think of a signal, I'm accustomed to the signal meaning the FULL block ahead to ITS IJ and the block ahead of that. Yellow means you're not likely to hit something UNTIL you get to the IJ at the end of the block. That's how I managed to get things confused there when I tried to explain. I realize that most people (not you of course) would assume that when they're at a signal, it's like a traffic light rather than an indicator of "reality ahead" ... damned school car messed me up. :)
Yes, if you shunt the next track circuit in advance of the signal
(not the one immediately in advance), then the signal will be red
and the arm up.
Failure to shunt is a very serious defect. Barring gross mechanical
misfortune to the relay or someone changing a track transformer
setting or replacing a resistor with the wrong value, it should
never happen with NYCT's short blocks, except on infrequently-used
tracks that are rusted.
It was commonplace in the yards many years ago on some of the lesser-used layup tracks, and there were a few places around the system where the signals wouldn't change as soon as you crossed over. NYCTA of course is one of the better maintained railroads so it's VERY rare there. On the bigger railroads though, track warrants are often required for MOW sets and vehicles as the signals MIGHT detect the vehicle(s), they might not. And of course brown rail, not a chance.
Since you normally have a number of axles though, you usually have a good solid signal path from a train. Sometimes a 2 or 4 gauge wire shunting the tracks (or metal debris) doesn't pull the relays in.
Sometimes a 2 or 4 gauge wire shunting the tracks (or metal debris) doesn't pull the relays in.
You must think in signal-think: DROP THE RELAY OUT!!! FAIL SAFE!
The standard go/no-go test for shunting is to apply a resistance
of 0.06 ohms across the rails (assuming a CLEAN connection to the
rails). Wire gauge is not an issue. With only ~5 ft of wire,
even #14ga will do it.
There are some MOW vehicles that need the equivalent of a warrant
to operate in NYCT. The Sperry car comes to mind.
Heh. "Signal think" ... yeah, you've got me there. Never got into how the signalling works except on the most limited school car basis and at the time, I only cared as deep as not hitting a ball went, being able to tell the difference between an S, a D, ST and so on so as to increase my chances of winning at homeball lotto. :)
But one of the reasons I *always* read any message with your handle on it is you're da man. I was under the impression that among the many relays inside the metal case (and yes, part of school car was a show and tell inside the cabinets) there was a "track relay" with copper band and all for AC that pulled IN when a train closed the electricals across the rails, and the back side caused a drop out of the actual signal controlling relay (fail safe mode due to a power outage) and it was that expectation that I was referring to. I did note a farkload of relays and glowielampen in there (time delayers) and so I was safe with my assumption that axles across a rail pulled a relay IN to indicate "Here I am, mommy" ... whoops. :)
But yeah, sometimes a shunt can be not quite enough of one, something that gives the big railroads a dose of the willies often. Then again, I remember the "rail polisher" train that was out and about at nights when I worked there. What a show that thing put on as it rolled by on my way to work.
The circuit you describe is the "open-circuit" track circuit.
It is only used for occupancy indicators in yards and similar
non-vital applications. It is complete not fail-safe because
a broken rail, broken wire, blown fuse, blown track transformer,
etc. etc. etc. produces a false clear condition.
The track circuit that is used is closed-circuit. There is a
transformer at the far end of a block connected across the rails
(with a limiting resistance and fuse). At the signal, an AC
relay is placed across the rails. With no train in the circuit,
the relay picks up. The presence of the train shunts the current
across the rails and away from the relay, allowing it to drop out.
The drop out is effected by a counterweight within the relay.
Wow ... cool stuff ... yeah, I get the idea. Pretty slick. SHows ya what little I know. As always, THANKS for the lesson!
Am I right in thinking that if you lie down flat in the gully between the tracks the train will pass over you safely?
Obviously the best idea is to get off the tracks, but if you can't I think that is the 2nd best idea. If I'm wrong, I trust someone will correct me.
This will generally work, unless something is dragging under the train.....
Like the last guy it ran over...
Elias
You reminded me of Dave Barry's column from the 1980s entitled "Can New York Save Itself?" Here's a quote (from memory):
"In less than an hour, Chuck and I have located what could very well be the correct platform, and we pass the time by perspiring freely until the train storms in, decorated, as is the custom in New York, with the spray-painted initials of all the people it has run over. All aboard!"
:-)
Mvh Tim
1) There's not always a gully
2) The gully's not always empty, there could be a length of replacement rail, etc.
Only a 4 year can do that and not be dragged on a conventional balast and tie construciton. Also the MTA's most recent track/tie replacments have put wire and pipes and various stuff in there, so that only rats will live.
CLEAR UP!
I gotta wonder why on earth would you consider playing with a stop arm in the first place?
Also, FYI, the circuits protect against arms being rigged.
DEATH WISH!
Yeah, you got it.
Now give us your adress so we can send the nice men in white coats.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...................lol ......!!
A PCC is better! Or a fishbowl!
question ....& i am serious .....whay is a ""fishbowl""
i really want 2 know if possible .......please .......lol !!
question ....& i am serious .....what is a ""fishbowl""
i really want 2 know if possible .......please .......lol !!
"Fishbowl" (noun) A former GMC bus widely seen in NYC and elsewhere.
Comme ca ...
man do i remember the HUGE REAR WINDOW .....oh well a subject for
....."bus-talk"....lol !!!!
rugged sons of bitches werent they ???.....
lol !!
They lasted longer than the "No vas" or the "grummies" ... espanol you see. Yeah, like so much else in NYCTA, we didn't realize what we had as long as we HAD it. :)
yep !! like the rail-fan-window !!
GONE WITH THE R-142 !!! ............lol !
Heh. Figured I'd pull your chain with that one. Screw the 'birds though, I preferred the LoV's, the Arnines and the wooden cars myself. And if you REALLY want the railfan window, take the CIVIL SERVICE TEST! When I was a kid, the center glass was cool and all, but it was NOTHING compared to having a rail right under your eyeballs and *BRIGHT* signals compared to what the foamers saw in your face as far as the eye could see. EVEN on an EL or open cut with the SUN in your face.
I'll go to my grave with the THRILL of having been a motorman even if it wasn't for all that long. Got my yayas, got to see what most geese NEVER appreciate. THEY get OFF the train when they get there, we have to stay ON the beech until our tour is done. Then get up and do it again. Wasn't until I was a motorman that I got to TRULY appreciate the Brighton line (I was from the Bronx) and although my shift SUCKED (splits) I *finally* got over my foaming. It literally became "WORK."
Seriously though, there's nothing like DOING it for a living. CURES all that ails ya. :)
how do you feel about a BNSF loco operator having 2 do a long shift
fighting sleep on long freight train runs ???
maybe operate some AMTRAK lines like the southwest chief !!!
SANTA FE , CONRAIL , SOUTHERN RAILROAD NOFOLK SOUTHERN etc...
sitting in dat hot cab !! ................wooooooooooo.
now thats a tough long shift job !!!!
Well, after 12 hours you go "dead on hours" and have to be relieved. Gotta shut down and "tie up" (and the railroads make most people work every last minute of that "dead on hours" under FRA regulations) ... it's NOT a fun job though. Requires that you REALLY LIKE what you're going.
Since sallamallah is crazed about railfan windows, is there any chance of MTA ordering any more car types with "closet" cabs? Or are transverse cabs modern to build?
The current policy at NYCT is to have full-width cabs with door controls on both sides of the cab. Could it change in the future? My crystal ball's in the shop...
David
i am not crazed, etc.. just like em & when i am in my homeleand my
place birth nyc.....like da' good ol' dayz......!
sorry to see them go !!
Actually, they weren't produced as long as other designs.
The GM "fishbowl" designs were produced from late 1959 to mid-1977 (to 1980 up north in Canada). The Grumman 870, which evolved into the Flxible Metro had about the same length production span -- 1978 to 1995.
The Nova...started out in 1977 as the GM RTS, then the TMC, etc. etc., lasted about 24 years in production. One of the longer runs, I'd say.
The GM fishbowls weren't the rugged, tough bus that a lot of people think. They were simple and easy to maintain, which led to their extended lives. In the beginnings, they had some major structural problems (now where have we heard that before???) and the whole front body sections would start breaking loose and sagging after a few weeks on rough streets (anywhere, not just NYC). The rear ends underneath would come apart too....bulkheads would separate, sometimes so bad you'd see floor cracks or ripples.
Interesting ... and I say that with all due respect. I was never into BUSSES personally though - but those bowls DID run a LONG time in the Bronx (MaBSTOA) and so I begrudgingly appreciate them. Don't mind me, I used to ride "Mountain View" and "Cynthia Berardi's PineHill/Adirondack Trailwaste" busses and I personally have come to DESPISE rubber tires as a result. Not to mention the CRIME on the BX20 when I rode it. I'm strictly a "steelwheeler" ... if I have to ride on rubber, I'll drive the damned thing MYSELF. :)
But those things were out there for a LONG time in the Bronx which is about the only experience I have. FLXIBLE. Moo. Heh.
["rugged sons of bitches werent they ???....."]
Maybe they were, but they were no Macks!!!
Now now Unca Jeff, that's like comparing an R-10 to a Triplex. :)
Yeah, the Triplexes were nice, but they were no Low-V's. Oh, how I wish they would bring back the Low-V's for a fantrip....
Heh. I miss them too. I had the pleasure of a few years of the LoV's while they still plied the Broadway line and when that ended, there was STILL the third avenue el for a while ...
So join Branford and on both member's day AND Autumn in NY you can ride their Low V, possibly even operate it.
Operate it without any experience as a motorman? Now that's cool. I should really stop talking about joining and actually DO IT. Say, do you know if any World's Fair Low-V's were salvaged? Technically, I don't consider them to be Low-V's because they were built much later, and there were alot of structural differences, but I think at least one should be preserved for museum status.
Sure you can with a membership. You don't need any experiance. They have someone helping you and showing you what to do. When I joined last year I got to drive the R-9 1689 which was really great since as a kid I always rode the R1-9's and dreamed of operating them. Jeff H. from this board was my pilot instructing me on what to do and it was really great!! To see me and my son in the cab go to http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/Motorman_s_cab.jpg (You might have to put the url in your address box yourself as angelfire doesn't allow remote loading and the clickable link might not work)
Now yer talkin', Jeff! Those Mack buses were built like the proverbial brick shithouse.
If they could withstand what San Francisco muni did to them, they could last anywhere!!!!!
Growing up in East Meadow we had the Hempstead Bus Company (pre LI Bus) which seemed to be the only Nassau company which used Macks instead of old style GM's. (Which were OK too, but not Macks)
Growing up in East Meadow we had the Hempstead Bus Company (pre LI Bus) which seemed to be the only Nassau company which used Macks instead of old style GM's. (Which were OK too, but not Macks)
I remember the TA only used Macks on the Coney Is runs and exclusively in Staten Island. All else were GM's.
now i have to go back to 1958 - 1959 to remember dat'......!
i was only 5 6 or so ...
A few years ago, one of our track workers received a commendation at East Tremont Avenue. He observed a passenger fall between cars while the train was taking on passengers. He reached down between the cars and pulled the trip cock putting the train into emergency. If you tried to hold a signal arm in the tripping position, you would become mincemeat none the less.
When I retire (if I make it,) I want a contract to make SNOW BLOCKS or shoe paddles. Hidden inside the form of the trip lever is a small hardwood block secured by four wraps of friction tape. The blocks purpose is to overcome false trips caused by snow/ice/debris. A 'flailing body' had BIE'd a trainset some months ago on an inner car (not the leading car) which actually survived an accident (per the Train Dudes accurate reports.) Don't try it at home...overcoming the blocks resistance takes a lot of force (I did it once...TD chewed me out appropriately...I use my composite towed safety shoes to whack em all doing trainline safety inspections.) CI Peter
Get 1 wire and connect the 2 rails and that will trigger the trip arm to go up. But the problum is response time. Also it you do this you might trip the train while it is 400-1000 ft away and you will live. The train doesn't instantly stop when it is tripped. Remember inertia? The resistance to change speed or velocity.
If you put the train into emergency as you suggest, the train would still travel up to 300 feet before stopping (depending on speed & rail conditions). So much for a great idea. As an alternative, so you never get into such a situation, you could stay off the tracks, where you obviously have no business being. If this is not reasonable, you can hear the train coming if you put your ear to the rail, periodically. Of course, if you forget to pick your head up, you may run into a problem with a wheel or two. You might then want to listen for the sound of contact shoes by putting your ear tot he 3rd rail.
I have made up these questions to pinpoint where subway service is needed the most throughout the city. Some of these questions are opinion questions, but all are meant for reaserch.
1. Where In Brooklyn, Queens, The Bronx or Staten Island would subway service most likely be needed?
2. How many Trains per hour does the SIRT run at rush hour?
3. Would West Staten Island Subway service be needed in the future?
4. If you had the chance would you build a subway line going to LaGuardia Airport or JFK Airport?
5. Which Bus lines are at the state of overcrowding?
Thank you in Advance
In answer to # 4 definitely La Guardia since AirTrain will be serving JFK shortly. Either extend it up from JAM or run the Astoria line over to LAG.
--5. Which Bus lines are at the state of overcrowding? --
Bronx: BX1 , BX2, BX9, BX12, BX22, BX28, BX39, BX40, BX41, BX42
Brooklyn: B41
Manhattan: M15, M86
Queens: Dunno
for #1
Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx could use at least one cross borough line (instead of in and out of Manhattan)
Queens: East of Main Street; a Queens Bronx line; Glendale, Middle Village to Jamaica
Brooklyn: Utica Avenue down to Kings Plaza
Brooklyn to at least one SIR station
Bronx?
answer to # 5 (in Brooklyn at least)
B41 on Flatbush Avenue definately between downtown Brooklyn and Nostrand Avenue; B35 on Church Avenue; dunno for the rest
With the Cross Bronx Expressway (?) clogged most of the time, the overflow to the other cross Bronx streets has made east-west travel by car or bus a day's journey.
The Bronx needs an east-west subway. Run the 'D' across to Co-op City making connections at all of the north-south subway lines (except of course the '4'). The tunnel is already aimed east at 205th Street, although I would run it along Gun Hill Road instead of Burke Avenue. Extend the '6' to Co-op city also and build a two level station such as at Jamaica Center.
#1 and #5 are tough.
#1: You need to look at each area in the city and figure out how many people commute and where they commute to. Generally it's to mid-Manhattan, so the solution is as easy as running another line to Manhattan.
#5: I can't recall ever riding on a bus line that was never overcrowded at one point or another. This goes for every borough except SI, which I haven't ever ridden a bus in.
1. Where In Brooklyn, Queens, The Bronx or Staten Island would subway service most likely be needed?
Flatbush Avenue (B41 average weekday ridership is 43,420)
Church Avenue (B35: 39,792)
The only other cases I know of where a bus has average weekday ridership of over 30,000 are the Bx19 (35,889) and the M86 (31,600). There are probably others, but I don't have complete ridership statistics.
Other routes which maybe could do with new Subways would be Metropolitan Av, a Q58 type alignment, Myrtle Av, a hell of a lot beyond Jamaica, and of course some routes across Manhattan and the Bronx.
Flatbush Avenue from the data available to me seems the City's most pressing need for a new Subway. Elias has an excellent plan (which of course I'd do slightly differently) for a 23rd Av - Flatbush Av Subway:
http://members.tripod.com/subways2020/23rdStreet/23rdStreet.html
2. How many Trains per hour does the SIRT run at rush hour?
7 trains arrive at St George between 7 am and 8 am. It's not wholly straightforward - I suggest you look at:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/sisched.pdf
3. Would West Staten Island Subway service be needed in the future?
Depends how long the future is... At the moment I'd say no - the S48/S98 gets an average weekday ridership of 8,311 - tiny in comparison to Flatbush Avenue - that is the busiest SI Bus Route I have ridership stats for, so I really don't think there'd be the ridership base for a Subway service. Sorry :-(
4. If you had the chance would you build a subway line going to LaGuardia Airport or JFK Airport?
Both. LGA first, but JFK would end up with more lines in my plan.
5. Which Bus lines are at the state of overcrowding?
I'm not the best person to say for sure, but I believe the B41 could do with most relief.
I always wondered, given the fact Flatbush Avenue cuts clear through Brooklyn, how it ended up so skinny compared to Utica Avenue
They tried to solve the B41 issue with Limited stop service; problem is, ur still on Flatbush Avenue :-| With the amount of traffic on it, Limited is just a nice pink n purple sign to make u feel like ur moving faster (Previous B41 commuter)
When driving, I avoid Flatbush Avenue like the plague. Especially on Saturdays. I have a friend who drives the B41 and I rode with her last week. I must say she handles Flatbush pretty well.
PS: Get well wishes to the seven people hurt in car/van accident at the BK restaurant on Flatbush Ave and Albermarle Rd yesterday. A 10 year old boy lost a leg due to that accident.
That little off set road 2 blocks before Church Ave, thats a nasty little intersection. Will do
Dealing with or fixing the crowds on Flatbush Ave would be more drama than Second Avenue
Answers for your questions....
Q # 1. Queens!!! Queens is by far the most underserved borough by the subway system, with the heaviest ridership reliance being focused on the Queens Corridor (E,F,G,R,V). Any new lines would alleviate the already heavily delayed and congested Queens Corridor, and give other alternatives as to lines to get to Manhattan and other boroughs.
Q # 2. According to the schedule, which peak (rush hours) period comprises, fields 17 AM rush trains to St. George (AM peak period 6am - 10am......two AM runs originating at Great Kills, three AM runs originating at Huguenot), and 20 PM trains from St. George (PM peak period 4pm - 8pm......PM has three St. George - Great Kills dropouts)
Q # 3. Depends on how much residential development takes place on the West side. The west side is largely industrial areas. Tracks that once served the west side are derelict, or for very sparse freight use and in need of big time repair in order to operate any kind of passenger service.
Q # 4. To be honest both airports. Both are among the busiest in the nation, and with direct subway service to them from Manhattan, people could have a more convenient, direct and much lest costly trip to the airport than a cab, which charges $30.00 flat fare. I'd much rather pay $1.50, and deal with less traffic jams on the road.
Q # 5. Well I am only familiar with Queens bus lines, and Queens buses are very very overcrowded, especially the private lines (Green Bus Lines to be exact), and with the present strike with some of the private lines, the overcrowding on adjacent Green Lines and NYCT bus lines are getting pretty high I'd safely assume.
I would Say Building a Flatbush AVe subway would be better than building a 2nd ave subway.
If ridership on the bus route on the street where the subway would operate is the factor, I would disagree. Using 2000 annual ridership figures:
M-15 (First/Second Avenues): 19,052,085 (#1 in the system)
B-41 (Flatbush Avenue): 12,945,534 (#5 in the system)
Was some other factor used in determining that Flatbush Avenue should have a priority over Second Avenue for a new subway? (note to people just entering the thread...this determination was made by the poster I'm responding to, not NYCT or any agency or elected official)
David
There is more flexibility for the movement of buses on the one way
avenues in Manhattan, than on Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn, where
the flow of traffic is bi~directional. I also understand that the
M-15 is going to get Artics, so that will increase loading per vehicle.
Artics would absorb passengers on the B-41, but would this resolve the situation.
Till 1951, Flatbush Avenue was served by the 6 thousand series Peter Witt Streetcars
on a 90 second peak headway. Given todays trafficed conditions on Flatbush, even the streetcars would falter off schedule. Not enough width on Flatbush for a transit reservation. IMO a subway is the solution from Prospect Park south to end.
;-) Sparky
At the bus Roadeo at Floyd Bennet Field on 6/2 & 6/3/02 an Artic was there providing Shuttle service up to Kings Plaza. Based on the attendance they could have gotten by with an airporter van.
However maybe the TA was testing it to ease the B41 problems.
I know, I know, anymore comments should go over to Bus-Talk.
Traffic if a big factor, Flatbush Avenue is just too skiny to handle what it does on a daily bases, so its constantly backed up.
What is the travel time of the B41 and M15?
If there wasn't a Lextington Line, the M15 would be more of a disaster in terms of congestion than it is now.
The Brighton Line and Flatbush Avenue slowly seperates as u travel south, so everyone just annoying deals with the B41 cause its the only means of traveling Flatbush Ave
If anything, both of these routes are still in the top 5 of issues that need to be resolved
M-15 (First/Second Avenues): 19,052,085 (#1 in the system)
B-41 (Flatbush Avenue): 12,945,534 (#5 in the system)
What were #2, #3 and #4?
2. Bx-1/Bx-2: 13,595,964
3. B-44: 13,426,755
4: B-46: 13,397,171
Any further inquiries should be made on a new thread in BusTalk.
David
Any further inquiries should be made on a new thread in BusTalk.
Thanks for the info and, yes, this would probably have been better on BusTalk!
"M-15 (First/Second Avenues): 19,052,085 (#1 in the system)
B-41 (Flatbush Avenue): 12,945,534 (#5 in the system)"
These figures aren't really representative of the bus traffic on a given avenue in Manhattan. Lex/Third Avenue has three separate bus lines (101, 102, and 103), none of which has as many passengers as the 15 (which is 2nd Ave's only bus line), but if you add them up it's certainly more.
5th Ave has as many as 6 lines in stretches (1 through 6).
On the other hand, none of that suggests a 3rd Ave or 5th Ave subway is better than a 2nd Ave subway.
On the other hand, none of that suggests a 3rd Ave or 5th Ave subway is better than a 2nd Ave subway.
In fact they're all as good as eachother and should all be built ;-)
I want to know why speed means efficiency in those drives. I understand that the lower driving current and the no kickback from IGBT's are advantages. But what about speed?
IGBTs - (Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistors) are more efficient because they sweitch faster. Why is this important? Because the device goes from full on to full off in operation - not inbetween. Of course, no device can do this instantly, and this is a problem. Why? Because, as it switches from on to off, it's got resistance. On is, in the ideal world, 0 resistance, off is infinite. But, there's that split second where it's 2, 5, 8, or whatever ohms resistance.
If we follow Ohm's law, we find out, there's a voltage drop across it, and a current flow, ie (literally!), power being used. Well, wasted here.
If we can get through this on to off and off to on transition faster, we reduce the amount of power wasted by the semiconductor. As a side efect, it runs cooler (more reliable), and can be smaller (more fun because we can put it in a more creative place).
If we got from off to on and back instantly, we'd waste no power in the switching devices. But we can't, so we do waste power. Yes, that nanosecond on to off transition seems small, and yes, it is, but when you're drawing big currents and voltages, it's still enough power.
Gotcha. So an IGBT-based locomotive converts more of the overhead juice into traction power, and is (theoretically) more reliable, for the reasons you outlined. Great -- Thanks :)
In an AC-juice, AC-drive loco, the current has to go from AC to DC then back to AC. When we say an IGBT-based loco, do we mean IGBT in both the rectifier and the chopper? Can we have a GTO rectifier with an IGBT chopper, or vice versa?
AEM7
I'm guessing IGBT means all IGBT. I don't know if all AC drives use a switching device (as opposed to a plain diode) as the rectifier, though I suspect most do. IGBT may already be on the way out, too. There's always a push for smaller, more powerful, and faster.
What i'm waiting for, and I don't think it's too terribly far off, at least in terms of experimentally, is the transformerless AC locomotive that can run on any voltage, any frequency. Power semiconductors are getting to the point where directly converting 25kv into a line isolated 1500V DC bus maybe be able to be done without a transformer. Which gets rid of a lot of dead weight, and a lot of unusable space, though the underfloor type that's pretty much universal now doesn't take up much space. Chopping 5 or so tons off the weight of a car is a big plus, though.
Power semiconductors are getting to
the point where directly converting 25kv into a line isolated 1500V DC bus maybe be able to be done without a
transformer.
How can it be isolated without a transformer of some sort?
I agree it may soon be practical to take the 11 or 25 kV and
drop it down using high frequency switchmode conversion, which
implies small transformers with very little iron, as opposed to
transforming it at line frequencies with big heavy units.
Oh, I could think of ways. Of course, you're right that the high frequency transformer would be an easy way, but:
One semiconductor to control charging a capacitor from the line.
While it's switched off, another semiconductor discharges the capacitor into the load :)
Yeah, but that's not what I think of as "isolated". If
the two transistors short through, you have a direct line-load
connection.
Medicaid continues to soar. Pension spending, as a result of the top of the market enhancements, continues to soar. Public school spending in the rest of NY State outside NYC continues to soar. Debt service costs continue to soar. These are the winners in New York City and State. Now that revenues are falling, what is Bloomberg's transportation plan?
Eliminate NYC tax funding for NYC transit, and shift the cost of the private bus lines to NYC transit -- $700 million per year. Pay for it, and the exiting deficit, by raising fares by 33 to 50 percent.
Put tolls on the East River Bridges. Use the revenues for non-transport purposes. Cut capital spending.
No Second Avenue Subway.
That's the result of NYC cutbacks. Let's see what happens when the State and Federal Government cut funding also.
We, along with the parks and NYC public schools, are a cash cow.
Is it possible for me to buy a ticket for the NY Division ERA: PATH Harrison Shops & Newark Airport Monorail tour on the spot on Saturday?
Thanks,
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Give them a call at their Grand Central office (or fax them a letter). You may get lucky to find someone there.
Just show up with the fee ($25), preferably a check or a money order made out to New York Division, Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated. We'll be meeting at Bus Lane #4 at Penn Station, Newark at 10 AM sharp. Also bring a filled-out coupon from the flyer if possible.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
So today I'm reading a book on my subway-ride home, and I don't notice that crossing the platform at 34th (I felt like taking the F today instead of my usual W) I was on the UPTOWN platform, because that's where they stuck the B/D i had been riding down from Rockefeller. So my head in the book, I finally realize something's wrong when I look up to see if we're in Brooklyn yet and I see Jackson Heights Roosevelt...
So I jump off and decide to take the 7 (a train i'd never ever ridden before) back to Times Square and catch my good old W there. I was on a Redbird, incidentally. And the ride was incredible! so fast, such amazing views from the El....i want to ride it all the time now!
(just call me Flushing Scott)
Heh heh. That's why you shouldn't read on the subway. Didn't you hear announcements? Didn't you wonder about the long distances between stops? Anyhow, it wasn't a total waste, because you got to ride a redbird.
I didn't hear any anouncements...the speakers in the car must not have been working. I did notice the long space between stations, which was why i finally looked up from the book at Roosevelt, to see why it was taking to long to get to Brooklyn :)
too bad you found out about how great the 7 was too late. the line is almost full with 62's yuck. im bringing my lil bor tomorrow to ride the 7. hes done it befor. but its been a while.
I like the Redbirds, and I'll miss them, but the 62s aren't *that* bad.
ok ok true there not that bad but when you think of the 7 the fist thing that comes to mind (besides the mets) are the redbirds. they had that fleet for almost 40 yesr if not longer. Noe i have a question. the r- 62 have about what 15 to 20 years left for there life, whats next? i think the r 142 will go to the 7.
What's next??! Anything is possible! Duh!
Wonderful a new transit "professional" in car assignments.
Actually it's not. On an average time span a person would observe at the stations on the #7 line, you would see mostly Redbirds. There are only seven trainsets of the R62 from latest news at SubTalk.
I know they say there are only 7 trainsets, but sometimes it would seem as if there are more. Yesterday morning, I couldn't get a redbird @ 74th St. - Broadway in the Manhattan bound direction for anything. Just those God-awful R-62's. Yuck! And the other night, I saw a train of redbirds and R-62's mixed together. That's sacrilige!
I saw a train of redbirds and R-62's mixed together. That's sacrilige!
This is possible? The last two times I went to take the #7 train I noticed only one R62 pass us by. The rest were all Redbirds. The trains standing at 42nd St. was a Redbird on both sides.
Seems like some days, R-62A's are all you see, and today for instance, I hardly see any. This can and is possible, but I only saw this the one time. 9310 was the first car in the set which in itself was odd, since that's usually the third car or third-to-last car in the set.
when the redbirds are gone ....GOODBYE RAIL FAN WINDOW VIEW !!
Gee, I didn't know they installed transverse cabs in the R32's, 38's, 40's and 42's.
...U misunderstood .....r-62 ....r-142......!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ok ???
For future reference: B trains terminate on the SB platform at 34th; D trains terminate on the NB platform at 34th. There are a handful of exceptions but that's the way is almost always work. If you need to transfer to the F or V, do so at 47th-50th or 42nd and you won't have to worry about whether to go up and over.
Yeah, officially I know that (I transfer there about twice a day, every day) but didn't remind myself to be careful to make sure i was on the right platform, since i don't usually take the F and in my regular commute it doesn't matter if i'm on the B D F or V for the length i use 6th ave.
i think it was a combination of the book, the not-needing-to-worry-about-which-platform-usually, and the fact i hadn't eaten in a long while that did it....
But it was okay, i had nothing i was in a hurry for, and i discovered the 7 train!
-West End "Loves the 7 Now, too" Scott
Yeah, that fasting bit can do a number on the brain. Glad you discovered the 7. Next up: try to accidentally find yourself on the 1 north of 96th, at the railfan window. It's the most varied line in the system, and for a local it moves fast.
U would have really loved the #7 with the R 12 ...!!!!!
NJ Transit Arrow III's will soon be a part of the past. Ride 'em now while you can. ALP-44 hauled Comet coaches will be replacing them soon.
Says who!? They were rebuilt/overhauled/upgraded/whatever in the last 5-10 years and are fine machines.
Where did you get this information. I was talking recently to an NJT Superindentand and he said that the Arrow III's were here to stay.
According to the NJ Dept of Transportation's web site, a second overhaul is planned for the Arrow III cars which, BTW, are the fastest cars in the NJT fleet.
All passenger cars in NJT's fleet are rated for 100mph operation. This is why the max speed on NJT is 100 mph and usually it is the ALP-trains that get up to 100 mph.
The Arrow III overhaul will include variable tap transformers. There's a very helpful thread at railroad.net posted under the forum "New Jersey Transit". I've looked through it, and it has helped me a lot.
I sure hope they have the bi-levels and comet V cars first. Right now I groanm when I see a train of comets coming-- fewer aars menaing fewer seats since the ALP 44 can not pull 12 cars but only 8. Most trains of arrows run at least 10 cars and I have seen 12 car trains.
I enjoy riding the arrows, in spite of their door and A/C problems and the increasding freqeuncy fo car s with lighting failure (only emergency lights lit) and then the main lights will lick in againa only to faila gain and so on. I finmd the ride in Arrows to be smooth rather than the jerking for starts and stops with Alp and comet.
Arrows have 10 cars on all weekends. On weekdays, the car amount changes, but it is usually 8 during midday, and for rush hour, 6 to 12 cars. (I know the 6:27p train at Metuchen s/b is always 12 cars)
Sometimes for the C 6:20p train s/b here, (C means change trains at Newark) I would see six Comet IV's and occasionally (twice) I have seen a GP40PH come down here with Comet III equipment.
NJT Arrows do their max speed of 80mph (although they're able for 100) because I observed the speedometer between Metropark and Metuchen and also on all non-restricted speed areas. (Except for Newark to Rahway)
Of all the times I have ridden Arrow III's, I only encountered two cars with "no power". No power meant no A/C so it connects. I've never seen a malfunctioned A/C unit on any Arrow car except one, and the doors only have problems occasionally.
Does anyone have details about the second overhaul of the Arrow III's?
The Arrow MU's might be the "fastest cars in the NJT fleet", but on the Northeast Corridor, they are limited to 80 mph while the ALP-44's with push-pull coaches are allowed to do 100 mph. I think it might have something to do with the amount of pantographs. With MU's, there is usually 1 pantograph for every 2 cars. That's 6 pantographs on a 12 car train. With the other equipment, there is only 1 pantograph, the one on the engine, obviously.
I heard that Amtrak has a thing against "too many" pantographs, that's why they limit the MU's to 12 cars, and no more. Amtrak does have a point, the catenary does wear out quicker every time a pantograph touches it. That is probably one of the reasons why NJ Transit has no plans for purchasing any MU's in the future. As you can see, all of the talk is about push-pull cars for the near future.
There is one pantograph for every two cars on the "MA-1J" series because they are 100 married pairs (#'s 1334-1533). One pantograph provides electric power to both cars and notice between the pairs that there are black curtains and no cab.
On the MA-1H series of 30 cars, (#1304-1333), there are cabs on both ends, so one pantograph is needed for each car.
NJT simply hates MU's because of FRA loco inspections, which every other electric commuter railroad in the country manages to deal with - they are exclusively EMU's. They could always get triplets with one pantograph per 3 cars. The Southern region of British Railways was usually 4 cars sets with one of the middle cars having the pantograph.
Arrow IIIs have had their 100 MPH limit knocked down to 80 MPH on at least two occasions- both having to do with braking. Once, it was the cooling capacity of the dynamic brake grids; another time it had to do with heat cracks in the wheels- take yer pick as to which one is the current issue. I vaguely remember that after the rebuild, not all wheels were braked dynamically- someone out there can clarify this.
BTW: Push pulls limited to 90 MPH in push mode.
I never understood the panto limits (which is 10 MUs Phila to Harrisburg,BTW) but it's probably an EE issue rather than one of wear and tear on the catenary.
I do remember 14 (yes 14) car MP54 MU's coming out of Suburban Station in the mid-70's looking out of my hotel room. Most had panotgraphs, as they were very few trailer cars left by that time.
I do remember 14 (yes 14) car MP54 MU's coming out of Suburban Station in the mid-70's
PC routinely ran 14 car Wilmington Locals in the early 70's during afternoon rush hour. [I didn't see morning rush hour].
I never understood the panto limits (which is 10 MUs Phila to Harrisburg,BTW) - Fishbowl
Also in the early 70's an Army-Navy game extra was run from Harrisburg or Lancaster to Municipal Stadium (JFK) using 16 Silverliners. I didn't photograph it because it caught me by surprise as I was walking from the South Street bridge to the railroad bridge over the Schuylkill.
1973 Silverliner A-N Game special about to enter bridge over Schuylkill
Second 1974 A-N Game special from New York coming off High Line to cross Schuylkill
Since the V train is a waste of a line, we can use additional service on the ol' Fulton-8 Ave line. The T.A. should consider returning the K train to service, running from 205 Street, Norwood to Rockaway Park,
replacing that sleazy S shuttle. This service will run 24 hour express
service in Brooklyn and its late night northern terminus should be 34
Street-Penn Station. No more waiting for the A local. 24 hour express service on Fulton Street. What more can we ask?
No.
Send it to 76th Street. That station gets the worst service.
"What more can we ask?"
Keep the rolling stock on the V line where it offloads the E and F and put them at 90% capacity instead of 105% capacity.
One has
5: LEXINGTON AV EXP
5: BRONX EXPRESS
5: TO NEREID AV
The other has
5: LEXINGTON AV EXP
5: BRONX EXPRESS
5: TO NEREID AV-238 ST
Are they from the same company, or is one from the other?
Perhaps Software Updates. My 5 Train was smart to announce the Q, and W in addition to the traditional stuff at 14 Street today.
Has anyone noticed how there are a lot of black streaks leading from the a/c vents on the ceilings of R-142/a's? Are the a/c units pumping out dirty air? Maybe this happens in all the other cars too, but since they don't have white roofs it doesn't show up so blatently. In any case, I think it is terrible. They should have fancy filters filtering the air like you see in car advertisments. :)
The air is probably quite filtered....the air coming in that is. The outgoing air, well that's the problem for the tunnel-folk and the people on the platform.
Hmm.. Why would a train give out exhaust air at the top? I thought it was drawn in.
I suppose you're right...I guess that I wasn't thinking completely when I said what I did.
>>> Hmm.. Why would a train give out exhaust air at the top? I thought it was drawn in <<<
If not at the top, where else would the exhaust vents be? If you are forcing air in, and using a heat exchanger, you need somewhere for the hot(ter) air to exhaust.
Tom
I've noticed a distinctly strange smell towards the ends of r142s where the ACs are while out on the platform, smelling vaguely of car exhaust and/or something more potent and disgusting. It has only happened a few times, but... what the hell is up with them ACs?
Recently while in a discussion with another conductor about the equipment on the TA rails, this conductor tells me that R-32 cars can NO LONGER run on Eastern lines (North Division J,L,M)!!!
He says, and that he had supervision to confirm this, that after rebuilding during the general overhauls for R-32, that modifications to the carbodies, as well as platform modifications on Eastern lines stations, made operation of R-32 on these lines impossible. I debated with him that that is not true, giving that R-32s once operated on these lines (especially the J), along with the similarly equal length and width R-27/30, and that what he said is absurd. Can anyone tell me if any truth to this exists? I mean I shouldn't even entertain this giving knowledge that the car class (R-32) once operated on the lines, but I want to know from anyone here if any kind of truth to this exists. Any and all answers are welcome!!
Seriously doubt this. It would be in writing. If it is not, then it should if it is true. TA had a bulletin a while back that for whatever reason (don't think it was mentioned), no redbirds were to operate on the 1 line north of 137 St. This bulletin has since been rescinded. So if the yard dispatcher at CIYD wanted to send a R32 on a transfer to ENYD as horses, how would he/she know? Then again, 75 footers are not allowed in the east but I don't recall that being in writing. It so happens that the yard dispatcher at CIYD, when there is a transfer to ENYD, cuts up a M train in half and uses that as horses to make the move.
The ban on 75' cars on the Eastern Div. of the BMT is not only in writing, but also on numerous signs at Essex St reminding train operators that they are prohibited from crossing the Williamsburg Bridge.
Never saw anything of the sort at 137 banning redbirds, but the scuttlebutt around here is that it had something to do with tunnel lighting equipment that didn't quite fit.
-Hank
I now seem to recall the sign at Essex St. I used to work at CIYD and help set up transfers. It just turned out to be common knowledge that you didn't send a 75 footer to the east. But in all my years down here I can't say that I have ever seen anything in writing to state the ban. Papers have a way of disappearing.
There's also a "no 75' cars" sign 600' north of the x-over north of Broad St
I remember seeing the R-32 GEs being stored in the yard at the end of the M line during summer 2001. So they certainly can run there.
Didn't a few CI R-32s mingle with the other Eastern Division trains while the Broadway tunnel was shut down for the two months following 9/11?
I did not see any R32 in Eastern Division during that time period, but i DID see numerous Slants, mainly on the "M". The fact that I've never seen a post-GOH R32 anywhere in Eastern Division has me wondering if that ban is not so.
wayne
I don't know who you were talking to, but this conductor who has almost 16 years on the job is telling you it's total bullspit. While working the M line in 1993, they had to borrow 8 r-32's from N service due to a car shortage. I made a southbound trip to Bay Parkway with it one day, and a northbound trip from 9th Ave. the next day. It was drummed up 4x4 also, because back then conductor boards were still in place for this setup, as when we used the 16's and 27's on the M we always worked 4x4. This was also before that asinine requirement to point at the board before opening up. By the way, the 32's were of the GOH variety, and I had no problems at all on either of these trips. So you go back and tell this guy (or gal) about your latest bit of info on this subject.
Directly to the "left" - speaking from the 7 train point of view - which I'm guessing would be to the west, of the main Sunnyside Yard, there's another set of tracks that looks like a yard, except it's all grown over with grass and is usually empty.
A picture I took of it today, if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Anyway, is the yard still officially in use? If so, by whom? As you can see, wooden boards cover many of the tracks, and as you can tell by all the green, it's obviously not being kept in great shape. Yet there is that one freight train sitting there on the far left, so ... what gives?
Some of it is in use. Seems to be just a few near the wall. A few of the tracks have rails missing in some spots and has been that way for years. It is used by the New York and Atlantic leased by the LIRR. One of the old freight yards. This area is supposed to change with the East Side access project. There was a whole, long string of unmarked boxcars in that yard several years ago for a long, long time. Got really covered with graffiti. Then one day they were all gone. Always wondered were they went. Just so srange to see freight cars siting around in a long row for a long time but I understand that this happens all over the country. Strings of cars left to rot.
Owners of cars that are out of service for lack of business or in need of repairs that the owners cannot afford are frequently parked at places like this until something can be done about them. The Cooperstown Railroad used its mainline for storing such cars for many years, (since it had no other business of its own). Eventually the cars might be sold to the scrappers, I doubt if they would ever have been repaired to go back into service, the cost of doing so many cars at once is what sidelined them in the first place.
Many of the tracks there were used for freight that came across the Hell Gate Bridge.
There were also many tracks that had cantenary over them, and it was sad to ride by there and see the nubs of the wires cut off on each of the towers. This was the PRR passenger terminal that served Penn Station. Do you see how enormous this facility is. It had a great turning loop around the outsied of it all. It was easier to run the trains through this loop then to go through each car turning the seats around. (These were not walk over seets, but the kid used on AMTK today, you can turn the seats around, but they pivot in the middle, and it takes much longer than the old LIRR walkovers.
For anyone of thinking of a WTC terminal, please keep this, and the capacity of GCT in mind. *MY* plan of a WTC Station is Much Much Better!
Elias
the loop is still there and used daily by amtrak & NJT, as is the passenger side of the yard. 'yard a' the freight yard next door, is pretty much disused - never did this side of the facility serve any passenger use (though LIRR dumped old MUs and diesel coaches awaiting resale there a few times through the 90's)
No, In the 20, 30s 40s and 50s the whole Sunnyside yard was filled with PRR passenger trains awaiting their next run. Those car yards (under the abandoned catenary towers... if they are still there) were quite active in their day. After all.... That is why they were built.
Elias
...i'll have to poke through my books. what can i say, i'm skeptical, given all the industrial sidings along the NW side of the yard, the hump at the east end of it by honeywell av, etc. i always asumed the poles were in there because freight was also electricified back then, over the hell gate, etc. (there still are a few poles...). Either they put in the hump after deciding to use that side as freight (I can't imagine a use for a hump in a passenger yard), or you're thinking of the current amtrak/NJT yard... All i know is from the late 60's to present, I've only known it to be a freight yard, and given the above, just can't see how it ever was used for any sort of passenger car storage... maybe it was... but i won't believe it till i read it and see some photos...
HMMMmmmm.......
You may be right, although I am sure that I saw passenger cars parked there, though maybe we are not thinking of the same place.
There were track number painted onto the bridges there.
Yes, I guess I forgot that freight would have been electrically powered in that area too.
Elias
Probably was freight......Remember that there was a company called Railway Express that brought freight to depots (the sunnyside depot was accessed by a ramp from the 39th ST overpass) put it on trains to another depot and then delivered by truck again.
Railway Express became RPS Package Express and is now Fedex Ground.
Railway Express became RPS Package Express and is now Fedex Ground.
Did it really?
I thought REX was gone dead and burried long before RPS was ever seen on the face of the earth.
Elias
Parts of Sunnyside yard I think are not in use anymore. The yard is not that important anymore. So parts of it have been allowed to go.
In the area north of the LIC terminal there is an abondoned ROW which I believe belonged to one of the railroads absorbed by the LIRR. The ROW is just a grassy pathway going from the yard to the East River.
Amtrak I think still uses the loop west of 43 Street to turn their trains that aren't going to New England via Hellgate Bridge. NJT probably turns a few trains there as well. NYandA probably uses part of the yard for storing freight cars and engines. Be it from New England or Bay Ridge. Maybe that was the freight train in your picture.
But I don't think the yard is used much anymore for anything except for storing unused and out of service cars. Maybe when the LIRR builds the route to Grand Central via 63 St the tracks might become used again. Depends mostly on what happens to Amtrak.
the loop track that goes under the LIRR/amtrak main by 43rd street is used many, many times a day. All amtrak and NJT trains that are yarded at sunnyside from penn. go around this loop track (and only work trains enter the yard off the mainline from the east...). during morning rush hour, there is litterly 2 lines of trains waiting to get into the yard along these loop tracks.
the ROW you speak of was an LIRR yard which went down to the river from where the NY&A team track now sits at 21 st. by PS1 - this yard was for floating frieght cars to NJ (what cross harbor still does...) and was abandoned in the 60s or 70s. Half of this yard west of vernon blvd. was filled in maybe 10 years back when they started building Queens West down by the water. The rest of it, up to the intersection at 11th street and the pulaski bridge, is also eventually to be filled in and made into a wide roadway/park. A bridge over the yard at vernon blvd. was taken down as part of the prcess, and the old float bridges along the water have been preserved and converted into what is now known as 'gantry park'. there's even some rail segments in the park to tell of it's history.
as for 'the unused part of sunnyside' - it is actually called 'yard A'. the construction crews working on the queens blvd and honeywell av. bridges have lots of equipment parked blocking many of the tracks - not that they are in any shape to hold cars. one of the last moves out of the yard was to collect the old ore cars that were stored there, several of which derailed on the decaying track.
the current string of covered hoppers are just being stored there, likely for allied extruders, a customer by the old Bliss tower under greenpoint av on the lower montauk.
the only other use of the yard is for NY&A's shop (which has had the dead gp-38 268 parked outside it for at least a year now).
as mentioned in other posts in this thread, LIRR is to get the whole of yard A back for it's GCT access project. the entire thing will be dug up to build the tunnel connection (well, maybe not the whole thing...) and the yard itself will be rebuilt for MU storarge. NY&A's shop is likely going to be relocated to along the wye at fresh pond. additionally, the old blissville yard by greenpoint ave is to be rebuilt for NY&A.
Wasn't part of Yard A used as a temporary maintenance facility for the C-3s a short while back?
As for the ROW you speak of, parts have been filled in, but some sections like by Vernon Ave still have track. A new apartment building complex sits on what was the ROW by the river on 2nd St. The two float gantries themselves have been restored into a park called "Gantry Plaza State Park". They can been seen from Manhattan with buf red "Long Island" painted on their faces. A recent Macy's TV commercial was filmed there.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
I was talking about a little further north than the Vernon/Jackson area.
It wasn't a bunch of new freight cars like the one you saw when I saw it. It was small, graffiti-marked container cars and looked darker than the one you took the photo of. I guess the tracks against the wall are still in use to some extent.
they are, on occasion, strictly for storage. some old LIRR coachs and work cars have been stored there over the last few years before being sold or sent for scrap.
also, the cars you saw were probably the old LIRR ore cars, not container cars - which were used to haul rock from the giant water tunnel project out to LI (prima asphalt, if i recall right). there were 125 of them, 100 of which were sold a year or two ago (i forget to whom) while the rest were bad ordered. I presume they were sent to scrap somewhere...
the only container cars you'll find around NYC limits are the green sludge boxes at the harlem river yard & in oak point on csx...
NY @ Atlantic stores rock jennies (small rock hoppers) there for use on train RS-80, which takes away stone from the Maspeth water tunnel dig site, also covered hoppers for local industries further south in LIC. It's also in part a maintenance of equipment yard for NY&A. The rest of the yard remains unused since the LIRR gave up it's freight operations, and industries in the area who used to ship by rail and receive cars there by rail either closed down or left, leaving the yard to become derelict. There have been talks of plans to revamp the yard for new freight usage, even been on and off talk of making it an MTA yard for the LIRR, especially once work gets going on the East Side Access Project. Part of the yard (the right of way directly parallel to the Amtrak storage area, is a yard run-through loop for Amtrak and NJ Transit equipment leaving the yard (the good condition tracks with the overhead catenary over it). There are plans to revitalize the yard, but we'll see what happens, whenever it happens.
from Shadow Traffic on WNBC-TV: A trains suspended W4 to Jay Street due to power problems. No news on E trains amd no news on F or other lines.
update (including bulletin from MTA):
5:23 AM] 010104 NYC BULLETIN
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT SUBWAYS : SERVICE SUSPENDED ON "C" TRAINS CHAMBERS ST
THROUGH WEST 4TH ST +POWER FAILURE+, ALSO CAUSING +LIMITED SERVICE WITH
SCATTERED DIVERSIONS+ ON "A & E" TRAINS BETWEEN CHAMBERS ST & WEST 4TH ST
[MANHATTAN]. CON-ED STILL WORKING ON IT. USE ALTERNATES: "1, 2, 3, D, F, & N."
(MTA)
I guess it's going to be a long day....
-Stef
I'm glad I'm not working my day off!
>>>USE ALTERNATES: "1, 2, 3, D, F, & N.<<<
How is the D considered an alternate when it terminates at 34/6?
Peace,
ANDEE
A suggestion for the geese passengers along CPW to just take the D instead of waiting on an A.
All 8th ave train terminate at 34 herald except the E that goes to Whitehall.
Tough night, too. The power problem existed when I was going in at 9.30pm last night. 6th Ave line was so backed up that I fled for the BMT at Prince St when it took 20 minutes to get from E.Broadway to Broadway-Lafayette on the F.
My wife came home an hour late and bathed in sweat and cursed me, New York City, the State of New York, the New York City Transit Authority, the entire financial community, and our Catholic Church. She's pretty fed up. Hard to blame her these days.
Things are headed downhill. I heard people grumbling at the TV screens today showing CNN and CNBC when they saw the DOW.
Things are headed downhill. I heard people grumbling at the TV screens today showing CNN and CNBC when they saw the DOW index.
The F is't going into manhatten right now.
The F isn't going into manhatten right now. It is the crosstown line (G).
It's time for a rant from someone who can't sleep.
It was a great day as this SubTalker returned to operating duties at Branford for the first time in a long time. It was nice to be able to take a few trips up and down the line with BERA's great collection of streetcars. If you're a native New Yorker, a Brooklyn Car would be suitable for you. Ohhhhhhhhhhhh - enjoying the breezes of the nearby LI Sound on the straightaway. Whoa baby! It was all good.
I did a couple of trips on Wednsday with Thurston and others, under the supervision of JohnS. All in all, we stayed on schedule and accomodated charter groups during the course of the day.
I always said I was motivated to become a member of the Museum because of BERA's Rapid Transit Collection, but the Museum has an impressive Streetcar Collection. RT and Streetcars are intertwined with each other. This SubTalker and BERA member has grown to appreciate the little Streetcars that could---
All in all, it was good day had by all. Thanks to all for keeping the Railway in smooth operation!!!
A side note:
IIRC, A fellow Car Operator mentioned here that they couldn't get Westbound Signal 8W to clear on the way into Sprague Station. Approach it at a slow speed and make sure the line is clear. Once you get to the clear post, the signal aspect will change.
-Stef
Yeah, Stef, sounds like someone was 'hot-rodding' on the line...;-D
Glad you enjoyed yourself.
Next time up there I hope we'll have somemore NYCT personnel getting their feet wet on the equipment...
Hey BMT Man, Stef saw the "Light" and may see much more "Streetcar" operation this season. Thanks for the kind words. And for those of you who think maybe I should try that, Training is each year in March. But you have to be a member to operate. Will you join us.
;-) Sparky
As a fellow trolley operator at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, I heartily agree.
E_DOG
E_Dog: why not head up to Branford (aka Shoreline Trolley Museum) and show us your "skills"...;-D
Once I get trained on the airbrake and one man cars I intend to do exactly that.
E_DOG
Remember we're a different guage, so you also have to watch you step < G >
Or, as we joke in Baltimore, "narrow guage for narrow minds."
(We have UR&E track drawings in the BSM Library, and every place the United's track crossed a railroad track, the following note appears: "Standard over Narrow". We're right, it 's the rest of the world that's wrong.)
I must say thanks to all SubTalkers, who are museum operators for
their contributions to this tread. More so, the input from Frank
Hicks, IRM & Dan Lawrence, BSM has been instructive to the varied
conditions on which we operate this equipment. Being an Instructor
at Branford and comprehending the operating standards is significant
to this operator, with thousands of hours of operating experience.
I find that many operators think they know it all, once they are
qualified on certain pieces of equipment. Then if something, doesn't
function in their preceived manner, it's a flaw of the apparatus.
;-) Sparky
BSM has mostly handbrake cars in revenue service? Dan Lawrence, chime in.
-Stef
Yep,
The only air-brake cars are PCC 7407, Witt 6119 and 1924 Brill/Carroll Park rebuild 4533, plus still not-in-service crane 3715. Everything else is hand braked. At BSM, either you run handbrakers, or you don't run. That's how we train new people. E_DOG is still new enough that he only has hand-brake qualification. Air Brake and One-Man training is still in his future.
BSM is the Hand Brake capital of North America. We've gone and trained other museum people (Branford & Seashore) on hand brakes. They are not to be feared.
Dan,
I'm intrigued by your statement that handbrakes aren't to be feared. Are people generally afraid of handbrakes? I don't think anybody is scared of the brakes on 327, probably because it runs so much without incident it's accepted. On the other hand, a lot of people there seem to be nervous about the wooden cars being weak compared to those constructed out of steel and one person there discribed CTA 48 (PCC elevated car) in one word as being 'scary' because of it being 'fast' (I don't know if he was referring to the acceleration rates availible to the driver or top speed or both).
>BSM is the Hand Brake capital of North America.
I don't think that's a bad thing.
-Robert King
Hand brake cars take a looonnnnngggggg time to stop. This
is particularly noticeable at higher speeds. The physical
strength of the motorman is also a big factor.
Handbrake cars are a bitch. Sometimes I don't crank it up right on car 1050 and have to literally lean into the brake to bring the car to a stop. In a week or so I'll learn how to operate a PCC car. You have no idea how much I'm looking forward to that!
E_DOG
Well, even an airbrake car can be a bitch to stop: take 1227 for example. It is an old BRT Elevated car and was obviously pre-dynamic braking era...so it's 'look Ma, no brakes' if you take her too fast going into a curve....gott a do a 'WHOA, NELLIE' on the brake handle and do a one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two count to figure in the braking distance!
While the Arnines had "electric assist" on a trainline basis, (makes little difference on just one car) it was pretty much the same deal - "know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em." Sure hope you don't dent my baby one of these days. Fortunately since you know the drill, the only one I gots to worry about is "pin stripe Steffie" ... heh.
Don't worry about me. Give me some steel dust to sniff and I'll be just fine....
-Stef
Heh. As long as you don't be snortin' none of that composite brakeshoe snuff. :)
Jeff, E Dog,
Thanks for your replies. I can see how people would be nervous about hand brake cars operating at higher speeds (speed restrictions?)
but still, knowing that the braking distances are long - forewarned is forearmed, right?
E Dog,
You will like the PCC. They're quite easy to operate. As for maintainance, that's apparantly another story, but they are definitely quite easy and fun to operate and you'll enjoy it. I know how you feel - I remember when I got offered the driver's seat the first time.
-Robert King
But that's part of the fun. As you have more and more of the collection under your belt. Can you stop the R-17 just as smoothly as Brookly 4573 or Line car 25. The latter two you had better give yourself plunty of track because there's no EMERGANCY in case of an aw shit !
Mr rt__:^)
How often have you soiled your BVDs with 4573 Mr. rt, since your noted to be excessive in speed?
;-) Sparky
Hay now Sparky ... have never extented the ROW down the street or needed to replace any divots like a certain other operator.
BTW, you would have been proud of the way I handled 25 on Saturday.
Mr rt__:^)
The one thing we emphasize in training is "don't outrun your brakes".
We use our double truck open, 1164, as a general tow-motor. She has 2 WH 306CV motors (50hp each) resulting in get-up & go!! Even though hand-braked, you get better control. We've done drag jobs with 1164 towing PCC's, witts (at 19 tons each) plus our home-made line car/siege tower.
Most of the other museums with early (1890's) cars don't tend to run them, since even many of the active people there are afraid of the hand brakes. Our cars get regular brake adjustments, lubed regularly, brake chains checked for loose and stretched links, pins and bolts.
Also, when running a hand brake car, take up almost all the slack in the brake rigging and release just enough so that 2 1/2 turns of the brake handle will fully apply the brakes.
Come down to Baltimore and step back to the turn of the 20th Century and earlier. The majority of our collection spans the years 1895 to 1904. Air braked equipment didn't hit Baltimore until 1905.
BERA has a rule about the max speed for hand brake cars. I'm sure Thuston has reviewed that rule!!
As a matter of fact my pilot Saturday reminded me of it.
I've been reading with interest the various trolley operating experiences in this thread. In addition to my 'home' at Trolley Museum of New York, I also hold a operators certificate at McKinney Avenue Transit Authority (www.mata.org) that runs up to four trolleys. The other operations mentioned here, BSM, Shore Line, Seashore, IRM, etc., are on a private right of way. MATA on the other hand is in-street. Much of the day there isn't much interference from the other street traffic, but once in a while you'll be bumper to bumper with semis, buses, taxis and impatient people in their BMWs. Probably the thing I hate most is people who zip past your trolley on the right, dart into the lane in front of you, and stop quick to make a left turn (McKinney Ave. is 4 lanes much of its length, with the trolley tracks in the middle opposing lanes.) There are two segments of the line that are in a reserved lane (St. Paul and Blackburn streets), but you still need to mind traffic lights and crossing traffic.
The operating fleet at Branford is all air brake (safety & streight air). They have a number of hand brake cars, both MOW & passenger.
Some of us up there have operated them ... I enjoy it when the opportunity presents itself.
Mr t__:^)
Now that I think about it, I may be the only operator at Branford with more time on hand brake cars than air! I'm usually helming the Line Car or maybe the Shunter, with occaisional forays into the wild weird world of W-3
The Line Car is a great little hand brake car to run. I did for about 20 years at BERA. You just have to remember to release the dog at the other end from where you are operating so that the brake mechanism will shift to your position. Then wrap it up and release it and the brakes come on very easily. There is nothing to fear. Just get used to it.
Would this be a "white-collar" Line Supt. under the
RedBird#4 handle?
It just might be!! I see that you read everything too! Good seeing you last Friday.
If you allow me to chime in on this response, one of the memories of
being a docent at BERA for a number of years. When #25 resided on
track 31 and was on the tour route, it would be interesting to explain
how it functioned and that Red Bird #4 at the time was "Superintendent of Overhead Maintenance" and how he would spend his off days at the Museum in work clothing.
Then one day, he appeared at BERA in his "business suit" to amazement of the regulars.
Then after the looks of what was so significant about a "business suit", I then clarified the uniqness of one item of the "attire".
;-) ~Sparky
If you allow me to chime in on this response, one of the memories of
being a docent at BERA for a number of years. When #25 resided on
track 31 and was on the tour route, it would be interesting to explain
how it functioned and that Red Bird #4 at the time was "Superintendent of Overhead Maintenance" and how he would spend his off days at the Museum in work clothing.
Then one day, he appeared at BERA in his "business suit" to amazement of the regulars.
Then after the looks of what was so significant about a "business suit", I then clarified the uniqness of one item of the "attire".
;-) ~Sparky
Dave,
Go back to your ditches, I get equivalent time on hand brakes at BERA.
Who operates the handbrakes during the Trolley Pageant,
[61 & 25] Also, I'm given the privilege of tending to 316 in
revenue service, when it's custodian is absent.
Also being a Seashore Qualified Operator, I've operated 396 & The City of Manchester.
;-) Sparky
Dan:
Mark and Ed said I can begin training on the PCC any day now. Since I'll be out of town next week, I'll start the first weekend in August. See you this Sunday though I'll try to get down there tomorrow as well.
E_DOG
P.S. Dave, when are you coming to Baltimore?
Aw, you just want to sit down on the job < G >
>>>"you just want to sit down on the job"<<< and this bitty comes from
the operator that must use the seat on 4573 and there's only one, so
it moves end to end and back again.
;- Sparky
Got tired of staining my neck to see out the front window because these darm trolleys weren't designed for someone over 6 feet.
BTW, I happen to like the old Brooklyn car & not just because she goes into parallel < G >
Justification, Rationalization, Exoneration, Vindication...they is all Excuses.
I'm over six feet and I don't use the seat, most times and this includes 629 also.
;-) Sparky
"At BSM, either you run handbrakers, or you don't run."
It's exactly the opposite at IRM. Our current rules do not allow anything without air on it to carry passengers. If memory serves, we have exactly two electric cars with hand brakes (neither operable) - and one of those is a snow sweeper! The "all air, all the time" rule might have to be changed if we ever build a tram-rail line and get our 1895 Chicago single-trucker running, but until then we don't use anything with hand brakes.
Frank Hicks
Why not run the hand brake cars on the Trolley Loop as opposed to the Main Line?
"Why not run the hand brake cars on the Trolley Loop as opposed to the Main Line?"
At the moment IRM doesn't have any hand brake cars in service. The only hand brake electrics we have are snow sweeper #E223 and West Chicago Street Railroad #4, both in good condition but not operational because they have tram-profile wheels and would derail on our RR-profile track. Our plan is to eventually build a tram-profile line, and at that time we'll certainly be revising our rulebook to incorporate changes like this.
You have to remember that 2/3 of the IRM collection is steam-road stuff. The "all air, all the time" rule was created to curb the practice of switching junk railroad cars during revenue operation; the possibility of a POS freight car uncoupling from the switch engine and coasting into a stopped streetcar full of people is pretty frightening. Therefore, everything on controlled track during revenue service must have operating air brakes (exception: PCC's).
Frank Hicks
You should probably mention (if you can get to this board
during your road trip) that the IRM "trolley loop" line is
really set up for AAR 1 3/4" flangeways. All of the streetcars
that operate over it have "compromise" wheel profiles.
We run mixed wheel profiles all over the place at Branford.
On the mainline, where we want > 4 MPH operation, we use
double-sprung frogs to deal with this.
That's too bad because those early 4 wheelers are just as much a part of the history of trolleys as the more resent stuff.
At Branford every time Union Railyway's #316 from 1895 comes out there is a line waiting to board (a father-son team has labored on this car from many years & restored her to fantastic condition).
Once you've had the privilege of a ride down the line in her you fall in love, even if you're a subway kind of guy.
Mr rt__:^)
Thurston,
If you are going to award plaudits for work, please expel the facts
correctly. Besides the "Parente's", Charlie Loinaz and Ron, [Rich
was a later addition] were the moving factors behind
Union Railways #316 restoration.
[Charlie joined the Trolley Crew in the Sky this past May.]
For the full story, refer to the documentation in the new book, "New York City Trolleys" from Morning Sun Books. And to quote the author, 316 is Ron's car and I have had the privilege of tending to this dazzler in service.
:-) Sparky
Oh yes - if there's a car ahead of yours, he should be in the block at Sprague.
-Stef
It was me. Actually there was an unscheduled charter car at Sprague which was leaving any minute which kept the signal red. I just mentioned so one doesn't just assume it would change. You have to go very slow anyway because there is a facing point switch ahead for the loop.
By the way, in this hot weather the Brooklyn car is the best since its the only convertible that is regularly used and it goes into parallel!! The only negative thing about 4573 it the controller (on both ends) seems to be VERY stiff.
I agree. Maybe Ted can work on it, but age has taken its toll on the car. 357's controller also seems a little funny.
775's controllers are much better than 4573's.
-Stef
Controllers should be checked and lubricated at least monthly. BSM's shop does ours on a regularly scheduled basis, and we have few if any controller problems.
Our Curator is pritty good about doing PMs on the active fleet.
We've been told that 4573 will be taken out of service for a re-hab for the past couple of years. We try to use her sparingly. She may also not want to take a rest, and so she keeps chugging along making lots of visitors (and most operators) very happy.
Wed. was a nice test of my skills too, as it seemed that every time I went out the Dispatcher assigned me & my grandson a different car (there are five in the ops fleet).
Mr rt__:^)
... and you were assigned variety, to keep your operating skills current.
NOPS 850 will be replacing BRT 4573 when it exits the shop. Work is progressing on Branford's New Orleans Car. There was more underlying work to be accomplished on both ends then anticipated. Remember, we produce "Quality not Quantity" and the curator has to tend the current service cars, when failures occur beyond normal PMs. In the shop recently 629, 357 & 4573 for corrective maintenance. There are six cars in the operating fleet, 1414 is off property on lease, but it is a service car.
;-) Sparky
In the shop recently 629, 357 & 4573 for corrective maintenance.
And it showed too... 629 behaved VERY nicely for me!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Any open cars running? They are BERA's hallmark and we ran both of them extensively in the warm weather. My understanding is that in recent years they limited them to series speed (the ride of death!)and that now there are no opens in service. Could that be true?
There are no opens in the "service" fleet.
That's interesting. Seashore has the same problem this season.
Our Montreal open #2 has a compressor problem I understand. I'm not
sure of the issues with our Connecticut opens.
The Connecticut opens all need serious dollars, so 4573 chugs on by herself in that capacity.
I would guess that the museum's policy is to restore another car in the collection so long as opens can be part of the display staff. If this is their policy I think it's a good comprise, i.e. you should have a goal of restoring every item in the collection. So, how do you do that with limited staff and money ? The two Yale Bowl cars are in display condition, both can be put back in service in the future (one just got a quick spruce up last year). Mean while adding our New Orleans & some more of the Connecticut Co cars to the operating group I think is a very good thing.
P.S. Adding another El car or the H&M tube car would be OK too, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Can you get a weekend crew to run an open. An open car MUST have a conductor/guard (if we were up north).
There are no opens in the "service" fleet.
True, but 4573 operates regularly and is quite popular with visitors and operations staff alike. It was used for all six "on the hour" trips today while I operated 629 on the seven "on the half-hour" runs plus the pre-visitors inspection trip - and a good thing I made the early run today, as we had a tree fall across the rails during the night (major thunderboomers overnight in the area, I was told) and I had some clearing to do. Fortunately the tree was deteriorated enough that it broke into several pieces when it fell so all I had to do was drag the chunks off the track.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You didn't just get a running start? :-)
With 629 there is no such thing as a running start :-) I love that car, but it does run on the slow end of things. Given the punky condition of the tree that fell, though, I doubt I would have had any problems if I had hit it; a couple of the chunks of wood literally crumbled in my hands when I picked them up. When I first saw it I figured on calling for someone with a chain saw, as the lower trunk section was intact and appeared to be quite heavy, but, as I discovered when I went to move it, the wood was so rotten it was like lifting air.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well being the operator during the deluge on Friday evening starting
out with 4573, till the heavens opened and then 775. It was a BBQ at
the picnic grove for Rail Enthusiasts, need I say more. 4 shuttle
trips to the grove with the Brooklyn car, then under cover & switch
to the ConnCo woodie. Two trips to Short Beach, one after we
cleared the grove of all. They still wanted a ride down the line.
The final trip was about 2010 and the line was clear then, and the
downpour had ceased. This operator had to be put through a wringer
at the end of that charter.
;-) Sparky
Sparky, You earned your pay again ... good work !
Thank you, since I was just critiquing my experience of Friday evening
and not bragging or looking for a Bronx Cheer. This was
a mentor passing on his experience to a newbie. It's all in a
days fun in operating a streetcar. I know there will be an attaboy
for me this season. >G< :-(
~Sparky
"... It's all in a days fun in operating a streetcar. I know there will be an attaboy for me this season."
There must be something seriously a matter with us ... consuming fluids all day to replace the loss in the hot sun, forcing these old bones climb onboard & down to the track, and after the fleet is tucked away for the night we gather for supper to talk about how much FUN we had that day ? This writer has to bring a change of cloths when he works in the shop, bacause otherwise they wouldn't let me in the resturant < G >
This writer has to bring a change of clothes when he works in the shop, bacause otherwise they wouldn't let me in the resturant.
And this time of year it's not just when you work in the shop... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You don't need to go fast when your towing Cabooses and dead cars around. 629 is our tow motor as well >G<.
(See this month's tripper for pictures of her in action).
It's actually a terrible tow motor. We use it because the coupler
pocket lines up nicely with most dead equipment that's not too
heavy. You can't simultaneously apply power and brake on 629,
at least not without resorting to a secret that even Ted didn't
know about!
You can't simultaneously apply power and brake on 629, at least not without resorting to a secret that even Ted didn't know about!
You'll have to clue me in on this... offline :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dave,
Technically there is an open car in the current BERA service fleet.
1414 is off property on lease to Lake Compounce Amusement Park,
Bristol, Conn. But it is a car from the operating fleet.
1425 did receive a cosmetic refurbishement to go to "Yale Field"
in October, 2001 for an anniversary celebration. Currently it is
awaiting funding for wheel work.
;-) Sparky
Plus 401, 34 & the horse car on disply for all to see.
Since we were talking about Fun Passes, here's a question.
If you buy a Fun Pass for $4.00 and let's say a fare hike boosts them up to $5.00. Then a fare hike takes place and you try to use the $4.00 Fun Pass. Will it still work, or will you have to add $1.00 or turn it in to a booth and pay $1.00 in exchange of a $5.00 Fun Pass ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think a funpass is only valid on the day you buy it. You get it from an MVM and it looks just like any other Metrocard. So if you buy it the last day before a fare hike, you stick in $4 and out comes a funpass valid for that day; the next morning, the machine will want $5 before it will give you one valid for that day.
I would guess, however, that if you buy any other longer-period kind of "unlimited" Metrocard just before a fare hike, it will be valid for its whole period.
That is not correct. A fun pass is good from the time you first USE it untill 3AM the following day. You can buy one and hold it for as long as you like and you get the one day out of it.
Apologies for my mistake
The fun pass is good until 12 midnight that the card is used. I've used it myself.
The fun pass is good until 12 midnight that the card is used.
As noted previously, it's good until 0300 hours of the following day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
and hold it for as long as you like
The Metrocard itself will eventually expire.
one piece of advice on unlimited cards:
Your friendly neighborhood station agent cannnot trade in unlmited cards. All we can do is give you an envelope to mail it in.
With a regular card, you have up to one year after the expiration date printed on the back to trade in the card.
FunPasses, like all other MetroCards, and good until the expiration date on the rear.
But once first used, it expires at 3:00am the next calendar day. So in reality, they are good for three to 27 hours, depending on when first swiped.
Actually the fun pass expires at 12 midnight on the day it is used. The past 3 years I've had to use it about once a month for doctor's appointments in Nassau. One time I made the mistake of visiting a cousin after an appointment. I was trying to use a fun pass on a LI Bus at 12:30 am and the card said expired on the fare box.
I've used the card after midnight but before 3am innumerable times on the NYC subway. So perhaps it's just LI Bus that has this "feature."
I've tried to use it on the Green Bus Line. I got out of work at 11 PM. Used the card which I found and checked to get on the train. But when I went to catch the bus at 12:10 am, it wasn't good anymore.
Sounds like a MetroBug. Since MC advertizes use 'til 3am, it should be so on ALL systems that accept it.
Perhaps our resident Private Bus Co rep mr. t could help out?
Maybe they figured no one would ever run into the problem? I mean think about it... how many LI Buses run between Midnight and 3 AM? I can't think of any other than the N6.
I'm surprised that happened, Douce Man. Perhaps Todd is right that thats exclusive to the LI Busses. I've used a funpass after midnight on several occasions, and I've used it as late as 2:59 AM! :-) -Nick
How long did you stand there at the turnstile waiting for it to get to 2:59 so you could test it?
"How long did you stand there at the turnstile waiting for it to get to 2:59 so you could test it?"
LOL, didn't have to do that at all. I got up early on Thanksgiving morning in 2001 to camp out for the Macy's parade. -Nick
I predict it will be good until the day it expires. In a similar vein, MNRR and LIRR tickets one way are good until they expire, even if the fare goes up. But if you take an expired FunPass to Jay St and ask for your money back, they'll know to only give you $4.
I think the 1, 7 and 30 day unlimited metrocards will still be good for transportation after the fare goes up. There might be some rumors the next few months about new metrocards coming out. But then TA has said the same thing about the tokens in past fare increases.
"There might be some rumors the next few months about new metrocards coming out."
That would be interesting. The city of Boston has more passes for tourists; they include a 3-day and I believe a 5-day guest pass for subway, streetcar, bus, and trackless trolley service. I wouldn't mind seeing the MTA offer something similar.
"But then TA has said the same thing about the tokens in past fare increases."
Well, the token did get replaced at the last fare increase. This took place on Marathon Sunday in November of 1995, when the price of a token increased by 25 cents ($1.25 to $1.50). The "pentagon" token (no relation to 9/11/2001) replaced the old "bullet" style. -Nick
Meet Me and Pigs Today under the big board in Penn Station at 12:20 for a trip on the soon to be closed Boonton Line. We are going to Hoboken to catch the 1:47 train to Hackettstown.
Is that Penn Station NY or Penn Station Newark?
They might be coming from NYP, go to Newark, then take the Waterfront or PATH to Hoboken for the train.
The Boonton Line will close on Sept. 27, three days before the new Montclair Connection will open on Sept. 30, 2002.
I'm confused. Everything that I've read on the NJT website doesn't mention abandonment. What portions of the line are scheduled for closure, and what is replacing it?
The line from where it splits from the 4 tracks the Main and Bergen lines use to just east of Walnut st. will be abandoned for passenger service. Stations at Arlington, Rowe st., and Benson St. will be closed.
Rumor has it that freight service will continue to access the Orange Branch over the old route from the point of connection to the Montclaire Branch.
Tabloid type headline! The Boonton Line is not being closed. NJT is simply closing a few lightly used stations on the line and rerouting Boonton line trains onto the Montclair branch which used to be a short stub ended line.
They aren't lightly used. The condustor on the train said they were some of the most heavilly used stations of the line. However, their combined ridership dosen't warrent having to rebuild the DB movable bridge.
How was the trip on the Boonton Line and how many people where on the train?
Apparently some small minds are still floating the idea of removing the A line from the Cranberry tunnel and replacing it with LIRR service. Keep in mind that the terminal for the LIRR in Brooklyn is still under construction and money has been spent already for that job. If such a scheme is put through, where would the LIRR connection be made - at East New York, thereby cutting off subway service for commuters from Queens and Brooklyn, or in the area of Atlantic Ave. and Flatbush Ave., where the construction would create a traffic nightmare rivaled only by the current events at the WTC site. Also keep in mind that there is a tunnel built specifically for the LIRR ( the lower level of the 63rd St. connection ) WHICH HAS NOT BEEN USED YET, but the bitemporal-hemianoptics ( that is tunnel vision for those of you who are new to medicalese ) are unaware of its existence, or have it in their minds that access to downtown Manhattan is for their friends only and to hell with the rest of the planet. Comments welcome, but believe me, I would rather sit in hell in a gasoline suit while smoking a cheap cigar than allow these mindless wonders to screw over the little guy just to make life comfy for those who have it good already.
I don't think you have to worry too much. Brookfield Properties (owner of the WFC) is pushing the hijacking of the Cranberry tunnel, and the editorial boards of Newsday and the Daily News are too transit-unaware to understand the implications.
I have seen no evidence that anyone in the MTA actually takes the tunnel hijacking plan seriously.
A totally new tunnel is always a possibility, as are many other plans that are talked about. But will it stand up to the test of benefit vs. cost? Quite likely not.
I think it is a stupid idea because they are having all this talk about being short on money, deficits, and all this fare raising hoopla, yet they want to talk about this giving its big time expense. The mass disruption it will cause to A line commuters from Brooklyn and Queens will be tremendous, not to even mention the traffic nightmare that will be in Downtown Brooklyn, which already gets messy. I think, with all this talk about increasing fares to $2.00, they better drop this idea because increasing fare for service, and at the same time ruining two boroughs commute into Manhattan will not in any way hold well with the people, who will be highly pissed off anyway with the service being as it is, and having to pay $2.00 to travel on it. But as I said before, I will happily say again, the MTA "big wigs" are not the sharpest knives in the drawer!!
i believe construction to connect lirr to 63rd is set to start in a year or 2 at the most... currently 63rd lower runs from a dead end just under west of northern blvd. to a dead end at second av (I think) in manhattan. It goes from nowhere to nowhere, thus no trains... i think the projection is to get the connection in use around 2010.
>>i think the projection is to get the connection in use around 2010.<<
That would fall short of about two years if the Olympics picks New York City for the 2012 summer games. Between subways, buses and commuter rail in the NYC area, things are really happening after years of malaise and deferred maintainence. LIRR ESA, new subway cars and buses , new commuter rails cars and a possible extension of the #7 to Jacob Javits.......whew !..things are getting busy here.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think it is a stupid idea because they are having all this talk about being short on money, deficits, and all this fare raising hoopla, yet they want to talk about this giving its big time expense. The mass disruption it will cause to A line commuters from Brooklyn and Queens will be tremendous, not to even mention the traffic nightmare that will be in Downtown Brooklyn, which already gets messy. I think, with all this talk about increasing fares to $2.00, they better drop this idea because increasing fare for service, and at the same time ruining two boroughs commute into Manhattan will not in any way hold well with the people, who will be highly pissed off anyway with the service being as it is, and having to pay $2.00 to travel on it. But as I said before, I will happily say again, the MTA "big wigs" are not the sharpest knives in the drawer!!
It's not going to happen.
It's not feasible politically, it's not practical operationally, and it's not possible physically. No class of LIRR equipment would fit into the Cranberry Street tunnels with a shoehorn.
These fantasies based on someone's quarter-baked ideas only divert attention from real things that suburbanites do, like kidnapping city people to use in satanic rituals.
No class of LIRR equipment would fit into the Cranberry Street tunnels with a shoehorn.
There are many reasons why this can never be done, the capacity and needs of the Fulton Street Line, not the least of these.
But the size of LIRR equipment is NOT an issue.
LIRR can buy any size equipment it needs. Indeed, lest you have forgotten, the LIRR used to go right into Chambers Street with no difficulty whatsoever!
Elias
(LIRR can buy any size equipment it needs. Indeed, lest you have forgotten, the LIRR used to go right into Chambers Street with
no difficulty whatsoever!)
I believe the latest thinking is a "super subway" direct from Jamaica to Lower Manhattan for LIRR riders only, using the Cranberry Tunnel. LIRR riders would still have to change across the platform, but NYC riders would not be allowed on the train.
"but NYC riders would not be allowed on the train."
You mean holders of tickets from Manhattan to Jamaica would not be allowed? If that's what you mean, it's hard to see it flying politically.
If you would be allowed to use it with a Manhattan to Jamaica ticket (more expensive than a subway fare, of course), it might actually fly and be welcomed. The Cranberry tunnel can handle a few more trains. The plan might also take some pressure off the E.
If you would be allowed to use it with a Manhattan to Jamaica ticket (more expensive than a subway fare, of course), it might actually fly and be welcomed. The Cranberry tunnel can handle a few more trains. The plan might also take some pressure off the E.
You know that may not be that crazy of an idea. As long as the capacity for more trains exists in the tunnel, the LIRR could actually share the tunnel with the Fulton subway. The only problem I see though is that I believe federal regulations do not allow heavy rail to share trackage with subway (or Light rail). It would have to be with a "transit" type train, so it could share the tracks in the tunnel with the Fulton Subway, that would have it's own track at Jamaica (as no other LIRR trains could use that track due to the regulations)
It would be sort of a LIRR transit-like shuttle direct from the LIRR Jamaica platform to Lower Manhattan.
The folks in charge would not even consider that idea. In that case, a completely new line should be built. My unborn grandson would be getting his old age pension by the time the first construction crew got the plans to start building it.
Well as I find complete takeover of the Cranberry tubes for the LIRR totally absurd, this seemed like a good compromise, as the subway would share the tracks, not be evicted, which is an impossiblity.
And by the way, your unborn granson's grandson would be getting a pension by the time a new tunnel is built.
That raises a question, is it really just politics why things take so long tob be built? (assuming the money is there already)
Just a thought: 2nd Avenue Elevated scrapped 1939.
Second Avenue Subway is not open or completed yet. Do not expect to see or ride in the 21st Century, at the rate of current plans or construction.
Original IRT subway was completed and running in FOUR years.
And, the money was spent- but not on what it was supposed to be spent on.
"…Original IRT subway was completed and running in FOUR years"
My main thought or one word to that is competition.
On a side note to that, had a discussion with someone about lack of speed in construction nowadays; said the answer was simple… unions. There were none back then and if you didn't want the job, there were a hundred behind u that would gladly take ur place. Agree unions definately have a purpose, but that was a valid arguement/point in the IRTs fast construction.
As for the LIRR Extension to WTC, ( whether building a new tunnel, using the Cranberry Street Tunnel) I still don't understand what is the problem with just getting the subway from Flatbush Terminal? And how would this extension (if actually done) benefit the city as a whole?
(As for the LIRR Extension to WTC, ( whether building a new tunnel, using the Cranberry Street Tunnel) I still don't understand
what is the problem with just getting the subway from Flatbush Terminal?)
The subway is already crowded, it takes time to change, and there are delays. So Long Island residents have to leave early or risk missing their train. Plus, there are race and class issues.
(And how would this extension (if actually done) benefit the city as a whole? )
The idea is to benefit Nassau and Suffolk at the expense of Brooklyn. The argument is that Nassau and Suffolk residents are more valuable to the real estate industry and business and, conversely, educated workers are not willing to live in Brooklyn.
Aside from a new tunnel, I think the most equitable thing is to extend the LIRR to a waterfront terminal, and let them take ferry that's just for them (or for them and residents of affluent Brooklyn Heights and Cobble Hill). The ferry could be timed to meet the train on both ends, and there is less possibility of delay.
The extension would not benefit the City, or Long Islan for that matter. * Ave trains have enough to deal with. Adding LIRR trains to the tunnel would only add more delays. A better recommendation is for the LIRR to abandon the Flatbush Terminal and the IRT Division would take it over to Jamaica. Imagine how many stations can be built on the elevated portion between Nostrand Ave and the eastern portal in East New York.
A better recommendation is for the LIRR to abandon the Flatbush Terminal and the IRT Division would take it over to Jamaica. Imagine how many stations can be built on the elevated portion between Nostrand Ave and the eastern portal in East New York.
What use would the LIRR Atlantic Branch be to the subway? Why would you need all those stations on the elevated portion? The line runs almost completely parallel to the Fulton St subway!
That's true. I forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me.
In any case, how about riding the 3 or 5 train to Far Rockaway or Long Beach. I know its pushing too far, but hey, a guy can dream, huh?
Actually speaking of parallel lines, it's too bad that the usage rate of the LIRR mainline, which parallels the Queens subway, and the LIRR Atlantic branch wasn't reversed. In Queens the only way the Queens Blvd line could be extended would be to take over the parallel LIRR Queens line for a super express. The LIRR could probably do without the Atlantic line, but never without the Queens line, while Fulton subway does not really need the extra capacity that the LIRR Atlantic line would give it, while both the LIRR Queens line and the Queens subway line are maxed out.
Oh well, back to the drawing boards.......
The lines going to midtown are maxed out; those going downtown aren't.
I know for a fact that heavy rail uses light rail trackage in Salt Lake City and San Diego to deliver freight to industries along the ROW of those systems and possibly others. The freight work is done late night after light rail service ceases for the day..midnight to 5 AM. BNSF in San Diego and Union Pacific in Salt Lake.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
I think the rule is that they can't run at the same time. I don't think there is a problem if one or the other isn't running. The problem with the cranberry tubes is that the subway and LIRR would have to run at the same time in order to share the tunnel. It would be of no use to the LIRR if it could only use it at night, or to the subway if it can oly use it at night, which would be just as bad as if the subway was evicted all together.
I think the rule is that they can't run at the same time.
Rules *can* be changed, and rules can be satisfied in other ways: ie subway exuipment on that line *could* be made to comply with FRA regulations.
That being said IT IS STILL A STUPID AWKWARD UNWORKABLE IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS PASSED AND SMELLS LIKE A ROTTEN EGG!
So Take That Darth VAder!
Elias
I don`t know about Salt Lake, but in San Diego the two ROWS are seperated north and south of the station. The Red Line has it`s own trackage and BNSF, The Coaster and Amtrak share trackage.
That is right, the trolly and the heavy rail share the ROW in San Diego, but not the tracks. And both Coaster and Amtrak, as well as the freights are all heavy rail, so it doesn't matter
(You know that may not be that crazy of an idea.)
Except for two things. The subway would lose flexibility in the event of disruptions, and the possibility of using the additional capacity in the Rutgers tunnel if (when) the Manhattan Bridge can not longer accomodate trains is foreclosed.
You'd be seizing part of an asset paid for (still being paid for?) by City bonds, and turn it over to LIRR riders. Brooklyn transit riders would suffer a small loss in the short run, have a big risk in the long run, and get absolutely nothing! That's why the idea has legs, it fits current thinking on equity.
The real idea is to reinstate the commuter tax to benefit commuters (contrary to what some NYC advocates say, the businesses commuters work at an patronize already cover the cost of their services) and built a new transit route for them -- a super subway bringing the LIRR to Downtown, up to Grand Central, and out to New Jersey.
You don't even have to go that far. A new tunnel under the East River connecting the Flatbush LIRR to the new proposed transit hub underneath the WTC site would solve most problems. LIRR riders would have access to both lower and midtown Manhattan east of Jamaica (except for Port Washington riders). Those bound for Jersey could easily x-fer to PATH trains here as well.
" The only problem I see though is that I believe federal regulations do not allow heavy rail to share trackage with subway (or Light rail). "
The idea that started off this thread was the recent suggestion that the MTA run subway trains, not heavy cars, from Jamaica Station to the Atlantic Ave terminal, with an extension via the Cranberry tube to the WTC.
LIRR passengers would cross over at Jamaica.
This way, the Cranberry tube could be used for 15 As and up to 15 Jamaica expresses, with the C trains switched over to the Rutgers tunnel.
This way, the Cranberry tube could be used for 15 As and up to 15 Jamaica expresses, with the C trains switched over to the Rutgers tunnel.
OK, *That* works, it *is* a subway train. No Problem there.....
But then the FRA will have a problem with existing LIRR service to Flatbush Avenue: both of them running on the Atlantic Line.
Elias
I think the point was that existing LIRR service would cease.
If the Atlanic Av Line could be converted into a Subway Line, is there any reason to end at Jamaica? I can't remember quite what the tracks do, but IIRC the routes (via Locust Manor) to West Hempstead, Far Rockaway and Long Beach could all be taken over, running at 3-5tph max each with 9-15tph max on the Atlantic Av trunk.
West Hempstead would mean a very awkward flyover at Valley Stream would have to be constructed, as trains currently must cross at grade to get to/from the single track on the north side of the line from the south side platform at Valley Stream.
Far Rockaway and Long Beach could be achieved without modification, both attach to the south pair of tracks and branch off to the south.
A separated pair of tracks from Jamaica to the east would be easy, if tracks 4 and 5 were taken over for this new service.
As for the LIRR losing capacity for South Shore trains, without the Long Beach, West Hempstead, or Far Rockaway getting in the way, the two tracks via St. Albans should be fine.
But any equipment used for this purpose should be special cars purchased solely for this service. 75' cars with forward/backward facing cushioned seats with only 2 doorways per side. These cars should also be capable of high speeds (At least a top speed of 65) for the LIRR portion.
West Hempstead would have to be 2 TPH due to single track, Far Rock should be 3 TPH as that's about the frequency of the A, and Long Beach could be 3 or 4 TPH. That adds up to 9 TPH, plenty of room for the A in Cranberry.
What about restoring loop service to the Rockaways? Okay, I know, dreaming.
West Hempstead would mean a very awkward flyover at Valley Stream would have to be constructed, as trains currently must cross at grade to get to/from the single track on the north side of the line from the south side platform at Valley Stream.
Was the West Hempstead line always single track? Is there space for two?
But any equipment used for this purpose should be special cars purchased solely for this service. 75' cars with forward/backward facing cushioned seats with only 2 doorways per side. These cars should also be capable of high speeds (At least a top speed of 65) for the LIRR portion.
2 Doorways per side would probably need markers put on the platforms to show where the doors would stop. Much better would be 3 (if the cars ar 60 or 67 ft) or 4 (if the cars are 75 ft) narrower doorways.
Cushioned seats are good, but sideways facing gives more capacity.
High speeds? Should be capable of 100mph even if this is not achieved in passenger service. The acceleration should be impressive too.
What about restoring loop service to the Rockaways? Okay, I know, dreaming.
Not a bad idea! Then extend the Rockaway Park Line west over the Gil Hodges Bridge to join a new Flatbush Avenue Subway, continuing under Prospect Park, Union St, through the Brooklyn - Battery Tunnel and up West St, 10th Av, East on 57th St then back out into Queens!!!
West Hempstead ROW is designed for double track, except some of the (newly renovated) stations have platforms over the space for the other track. There is a second track for a distance after Valley Stream, and also around West Hempstead.
Sideways does have more capacity, but not for seating. The reason for less doors is also to provide more seating, particularly with windows. Remember, a majority of patrons are quite content with having 85' cars with two doorways and every seat has a window with none facing sideways, even if it does mean $6.25 during the rush hours and hourly off-peak headways. Changing this too much will upset the riders, meaning political opposition.
Sideways does have more capacity, but not for seating.
Changing this too much will upset the riders, meaning political opposition.
Part of the idea was to run a more frequent service (so more seats per hour). Riders that far out would get to the seats first anyway. I'd welcome an increase from 3 tph to 4 or 5 tph, even if the individual trains had fewer seats.
even if it does mean $6.25 during the rush hours and hourly off-peak headways.
The two things which can make a railroad unpopular: expensive and infrequent.
The takeover of the Cranberry Street Tunnel is crazy. Leave it as is.
A decent takeover is the #7 train taking over the LIRR Port Washington branch. A connecting ramp can be built east of the Willets
Point Station, allowing abandonment of the Main Street-Flushing Terminal. I know a lot of money was put in for the renovations, but subway service on the LIRR sounds more economically sound. The stations on the Port Washington line require litte rebuilding( just
like the Rockaway takeover on Jamaica Bay). And the single track portion north of Great Neck can be flexible during rush hours, unless
building a second track is needed( the bridge north of the station cannot be converted to double-track). An extension like this will
no doubt increase the TA's revenues. Think about it.
Have you been drinking lately? The Subway voltage is 600 Volts and the LIRR requires 750 volts, besides that, the Subway and the LIRR are to different things.
I know that! The idea was to have a "special" LIRR train with it's own track at Jamaica, as it wouldn't be allowed to mix with normal LIRR trains considering FRA rules, and the voltage etc. It wasn't my idea to begin with, I was just expanding on what someone else suggested, as it was an interesting idea........probably fantasy, but interesting just the same........
I agree the whole takeover idea of the Cranberry tubes is ludicrous.
If you would be allowed to use it with a Manhattan to Jamaica ticket (more expensive than a subway fare, of course), it might actually fly and be welcomed.
If we're talking a total takeover of Cranberry by the LIRR (which I do NOT advocate in the least - I am just setting out how I reckon it could be done), then you should be allowed to do Manhattan to Jamaica for the price of a Subway fare. Furthermore all trains should provide a replacement service at least for the Fulton St express and as such stops should be added. Maybe the following would be fair:
Broadway - Lafayette, High St, Jay St, Flatbush Av, Nostrand Av, Utica Av (New Station), Broadway Junction (East New York renamed), Crescent St (New Station), Woodhaven Bvd (re-open old station), 111th St, Lefferts Bvd, Jamaica.
Two tracks should be added to leave the Atlantic Av Line east of Woodhaven Bvd to replace Rockaway service (stops: Liberty Av, Aqueduct etc...).
The V Train would be extended to replace the C train as the Fulton St Local and the Lefferts A Train. Rockaway Bvd and 104th St stations would be replaced with one at 99th St with a free transfer to the LIRR Rockaway service.
This would probably be the fairest way to allow a LIRR takeover - it would be expensive, unnecessary and a total waste of time, but if it were deemed the best thing to do for whatever reason, riders in Brooklyn and Queens could be compensated to an extent like this.
One detail which might cause a problem is how the hell the A, C and E Trains can terminate at Chambers St.
"If we're talking a total takeover of Cranberry by the LIRR"
No, the point of this subthread is that the Cranberry tunnel is shared by LIRR supersubways and the A train.
"One detail which might cause a problem is how the hell the A, C and E Trains can terminate at Chambers St."
C trains go via the Rutgers tunnel and A trains go via the Cranberry. E trains continue to terminate at Chambers.
No, the point of this subthread is that the Cranberry tunnel is shared by LIRR supersubways and the A train.
My intention was to put it one message before that subthread started.
The other problem would be all the switching that would have to be done east of Hoyt-Schermerhorn, where the trains from the Atlantic Ave. branch of whatever -- LIRR or super-express subway -- would connect in with the tracks going to the Cranberry tube.
Going by the track map of the Atlantic/Flatbush area you can't thread the needle and connect up the LIRR tracks from the Flatbush terminal to the IND because they go under the IRT and BMT tracks between Lafayette Ave. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. So any connection would have to be made further east or north of the terminal, where there would be less obstruction.
If you connect further east, when the lines are running paralell along Fulton and Atlantic, then you've got three lines on one track between Hoyt-Schmerhorn and Jay Street (a new track connection between the Rutgers tunnel and the Fulton local tracks for the C train between Jay and H-S is almost manditory if this optin is used, or the back-ups would be horrendus). Then, of course, if the LIRR cars were used, you would have to make sure they could make the turn from Hoyt-Schemerhorn into the Jay Street station without the car bodies having an argument with the tunnel walls. That would probably mandate some tunnel adjustments, like they did for the BMT when the 75-footers arrived, which would probably also be necessary here where the A/C tracks turn off Jay Street and head towards the High St./Brooklyn Bridge station.
The other option would be to push the line north, past the current LIRR terminal and over the A/C and G tracks to the Metro Tech area, then turn it west to connect up with the A/C tracks between High St. and Jay St. The new curve there could be designed to handle 85-foot cars.
Either way, there there would have to be at least one stop in downtown Brooklyn to serve passengers going to Flatbush Ave. from Jamaica (presumably H-S, the closest IND express station to the current terminal). IMHO, the plan makes much more sense as a subway option for the MTA, but that's not what the downtown real estate people have in mind, and odds are LIRR passengers working in downtown Brooklyn would also voice their complaints.
I know I've said this a near-infinite number of times already, but there is no need for a direct LIRR link to Lower Manhattan because subway connections at Flatbush Avenue are quick and convenient.
There, that was an enjoyable rant :)
I don't think it will ever happen either, for the reasons I listed in the other post. I just thought I'd point out from the Brooklyn side of things how difficult an LIRR connection to the Cranberry tunnel would be, since the focus seems to have been on just the Cranberry tunnel capacity/compatability problems up until now (of course, the new station for the LIRR that would have to be built on a spur off the Cranberry tunnel in the middle of the B'way-Nassau maze hasn't gotten much of a mention either, but would be just as big a pain in the butt as the Brooklyn hook-up).
I suspect that the LIRR-to-Downtown idea is the sort of thing that will poke around for years in a sort of suspended animation. It won't be really alive, in the sense that there will be no funding and certainly no actual construction, but it'll not be fully abandoned either.
Since it's an idea that appeals to the real estate developers who have excellent media/political access, you're probably right. But if they ever actually had one of their underlings look at the problems involved with hooking up the LIRR with the Cranberry tube, they'd see running a line south along the the west side of Manhattan from Penn Station to lower Manhattan would be the far more logical and less-costly (but still contentious) option.
I have several plans for a "suber subway" from Jamaica to Lower Manhattan, but these do not involve the LIRR. (I have a different plan for the LIRR).
My idea of a "Myrtle Fifth Avenue Subway" provides FAST EXPRESS service non-stop from Jamaica to a single downtown Brooklyn Station, and then across to Manhattan via the Pineapple Tunnel. The line would go DEEP under Wall Street and then turn north on DiMagio Highway. For now it *could* end there, but my plan is for it to jog over to Fifth Avenue via Moore Street thus missing much conflict with existing lines. The West Side WTC/WFC station is well out of the way of, but easily a part of any WTC transit hub that may ever be constructed.
And.... if my LIRR /WTC/ NJT porposal ever came to fruition it would almost render the Atlantic Line redundant. (Give it to the Subway!)
Elias
And.... if my LIRR /WTC/ NJT porposal ever came to fruition it would almost render the Atlantic Line redundant. (Give it to the Subway!)
The alignment West of Broadway Junction is really quite useless for the Subway - it parallels the Fulton St Line one block away. The line East of Broadway Junction may have marginally more use as a branch of either the Fulton St or Broadway (Brooklyn) Lines.
Therefore, the Atlantic Av Line would be UTTERLY redundant West of Broadway Junction. The best thing which could be done with it is giving it to Bob to run his trolleys through.
Yeah, with MP-41s! The LIRR's equivalent of the Gibbs Hi-V.
wayne
Yeah, with MP-41s! The LIRR's equivalent of the Gibbs Hi-V.
: )
Hey.... I never said that they did it recently! : )
I guess it wasn't an issue for the FRA back then, eh....
Of course, before the BRT.... most of those lines were LIRR or LIRR affiliates of some sort anyway.
Elias
>>LIRR can buy any size equipment it needs. Indeed, lest you have forgotten, the LIRR used to go right into Chambers Street with no difficulty whatsoever!<<
The MP-41's were of IRT dimensions, current and new LIRR equipment exceeds BMT/IND dimensions. The LIRR is committed to buying a new electric fleet whose dimensions will be similar to the old.
This silly idea of running LIRR trains through a subway tunnel was dreamed up by a real estate developement group that doesn't know a third rail shoe from a brake shoe. Also consider the following:
Subway voltage is 600 volts, while LIRR is 750 volts.
LIRR third rail is lower to the ground and farther away from the running rail. Subway third rail sits higher and is closer to the running rail.
Brookfield properties should do what they do best and build shopping malls and office building and leave transportation to the professionals.
Bill "Newkirk"
LIRR third rail is lower to the ground and farther away from the running rail. Subway third rail sits higher and is closer to the running rail.
Does that mean that if you managed to build a car with double third rail shoes it would work - one would be lower and further out and run on 750V (which could be stepped down by a transformer), the other higher and closer in and would run directly off 600V. Would this be technically possible?
>>Does that mean that if you managed to build a car with double third rail shoes it would work - one would be lower and further out and run on 750V (which could be stepped down by a transformer), the other higher and closer in and would run directly off 600V. Would this be technically possible?<<
Possibly, but the cost would be enormous and probably prone to failure.
Bill "Newkirk"
If the public even got word of this, knocking out the A/C for the LIRR, the whole idea would be killed before it could take two more steps.
A lot of public uproar at the fact that all this money ALREADY being spent to redesign Atlantic Avenue Terminal. Also may raise more curiousities the the MTA and its spending habits.
Then again, there was a lot of uproar against AirTrain running up the Van Wyck, and they still pushed there way though.
AirTrain was pushed by Port Authority.
The thing that helped the Port Authority's Air Train project in my opinion is the fact that it was built over the Van Wyck Expressway and did not cause any of the local homeowners to lose their houses ( the fact that the Port Authority built it was also a strong plus ).
The politicians could then say that it was a Port Authority project if problems came up, and hang around to take credit if things went good. The LIRR takeover of the Fulton Street line from Brooklyn to Manhattan would cause headaches for a great deal of commuters in both Brooklyn and Queens, just to get a relatively few commuters from Nassau/Suffolk to downtown Manhattan. I get that funny old feeling that if this idea is being talked up, some folks on high are already getting ready to try to make it into a reality. As for the Brooklyn and Queens commuters? Marie Antoinette allegedly put it this way - " Let them eat cake ". Sean Connery said that he would never make another James Bond film a few years prior to his starring in the James Bond film titled "Never Say Never Again " - in the title role of James Bond. We will just have to see how this plays out.
I remeber watching Channel 5 news and there was a group representing the home owners near the Van Wyck; the complaint was of rats and noise from the construction. The Van Wyck can be a noisy crazy entity anyway, so a monorail down the center is nothing more. Hopefully it will get to LGA
As for the LIRR and Cranberry Tunnel,
"…I get that funny old feeling that if this idea is being talked up, some folks on high are already getting ready to try to make it into a reality."
and thats the scary part, and may se this in the news later.
The whole thing still makes me question ythe MTAs spending habits and priorities
"… We will just have to see how this plays out."
agreed :)
I remeber watching Channel 5 news and there was a group representing the home owners near the Van Wyck; the complaint was of rats and noise from the construction. The Van Wyck can be a noisy crazy entity anyway, so a monorail down the center is nothing more. Hopefully it will get to LGA
Is there/was there any plan to connect La Guardia to the AirTrain system?
Hey! the PA can dream about things just as good as we can!
Right now its just going to a big steel and glass station over Jamaica Center.
Just talks of extending to LGA, but not set in writing yet
enclosed a link of what the Jamaica Station will look like:
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/galleryframe.htm
will connect to everything except LIRR Port Washington Branch, info about that in this link below:
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/serviceframe.htm
["will connect to everything except LIRR Port Washington Branch...
Doesn't seem to be connected to the Greenport Line either. I know you can take the Ronkonkoma branch to it but by the same "token" you can take any W/B Main Line train to Woodside for the P.W. Line. :)
Isn't the Greenport line, the Ronkonkoma Branch?
According to LIRR schedules it is.
"Doesn't seem to be connected to the Greenport Line either..."
You've heard about AirTrain Newark. You've seen the construction for AirTrain JFK. Now it's the most ambitious project of all... AirTrain Cutchogue!!!!
"…most ambitious project of all... AirTrain Cutchogue!!!! "
If that goes through, some real questions are going to arise about priorities
The way they are, a lot more people may fly into MacArthur and take the train into the city; an LIRR Ronkonkoma to Jamaica, that seems more realistic
Jamaica Center is several blocks east. This is over Sutphin.
I remeber watching Channel 5 news and there was a group representing the home owners near the Van Wyck; the complaint was of rats and noise from the construction. The Van Wyck can be a noisy crazy entity anyway, so a monorail down the center is nothing more. Hopefully it will get to LGA
As for the LIRR and Cranberry Tunnel,
"…I get that funny old feeling that if this idea is being talked up, some folks on high are already getting ready to try to make it into a reality."
and thats the scary part, and may se this in the news later.
The whole thing still makes me question ythe MTAs spending habits and priorities
"… We will just have to see how this plays out."
agreed :)
I remeber watching Channel 5 news and there was a group representing the home owners near the Van Wyck; the complaint was of rats and noise from the construction. The Van Wyck can be a noisy crazy entity anyway, so a monorail down the center is nothing more. Hopefully it will get to LGA
As for the LIRR and Cranberry Tunnel,
"…I get that funny old feeling that if this idea is being talked up, some folks on high are already getting ready to try to make it into a reality."
and thats the scary part, and may se this in the news later.
The whole thing still makes me question ythe MTAs spending habits and priorities
"… We will just have to see how this plays out."
agreed :)
keep in mind that there is a tunnel built specifically for the LIRR ( the lower level of the 63rd St. connection ) WHICH HAS NOT BEEN USED YET, but the bitemporal-hemianoptics ( that is tunnel vision for those of you who are new to medicalese ) are unaware of its existence, or have it in their minds that access to downtown Manhattan is for their friends only and to hell with the rest of the planet
I hope you realize that that tunnel is already set to be used for the East Side Acces project, which will allow the LIRR to enter Grand Central. That tunnel has not been forgotten. Budget contraints and lack of funds has postpned it for years, but it looks like this time it will be a reality.
I hope so, so that the goofball scheme to run LIRR trains through the Cranberry St. Tunnel into Lower Manhattan, displacing the Brooklyn and Queens riders to benefit a few folk from Nassau County and parts East of there, does not happen. If LIRR access is needed that badly, then after the East side access is completed, look into utilizing the Montauk Branch in Queens for some upgrading, or if the NIMBY factor arises in Maspeth, then do to the Long Island Expressway what the Port Authority did to the Van Wyck Expressway - build a line either over it where clearances allow, or under it so that nothing gets bothered. then you will have something.
No need to get upset over this....the idea will never be taken seriously. Remember 5 years ago when some people suggested that the "unused" Broadway BMT express tracks be turned over to the LIRR?
(Remember 5 years ago when some people suggested that the "unused" Broadway BMT express tracks be turned over to the LIRR?)
That would be far less damaging to the city than the loss of the Cranberry Tunnel, assuming new connections for the subway were put in place. There is excess trackage west of 5th Avenue in Manhattan, but not excess tunnel space.
Agreed. But the loss of the BMT express tracks dooms the Flatbush Ave corridor to inadequate cross-river access, unless the costly Rutger/Dekalb connector was built.
Remember 5 years ago when some people suggested that the "unused" Broadway BMT express tracks be turned over to the LIRR?
How? The Manny B can scarcely bear the weight of Subway Trains, let alone LIRR Trains.
I wasn't sure how they planned to use it. The suggestion was ludicrous. How can the LIRR and BMT run on the same line? It's not 1917 anymore.
Then where the hell will the A Line go without the Cranberry Tube? Is it just gonna be severed in half, just like that for the sake of the LIRR?
Probably after all is said and done (and I don't mean in here) Either the LIRR will build a new tunnel from Flatbush/Atlantic for lower Manhattan. Or nothing at all is going to be built!
No Offense, But I think that is a stupid ass idea, The Commuters on the A/C Lines will raise hell, and its a ugly scene. Knocking out the A/C Lines for the LIRR is a very stupid idea, seriously! And why would the IND give up the Cranberry Tube in the first place for the LIRR??
Dislocate 35,000 A/C passengers for 10,000 LIRR ones ? Stupid. Class warfare and racial issues would arise.
Does anyone know about the rumor thats been going around about the SD100MAC Locomotive with 7,200 HP?
False Rumor.
EMD is still debugging their 265 engine.
I just read they are shipping marine versions of the 265 engine. (TRAINS, July 2002.) They gotta be doing something right.
I also heard that 265 engines are slightly less reliable than the GE 6,000hp prime mover, but the differences are slight. The EMD one is hell of a lot easier to maintain, though.
AEM7
EMD is still testing a V12 version at the AAR test track. Some fans are calling it a SD89. EMD could push the HP up (but not up to 7200 is one big step), but with the way the DOW is going I don't think the railroads are ready to invest in new power since it is not sure which way the market is going to go.
BTW, I don't think this is the right forum to bring this up as the webmaster would like for us to talk about NYC transit stuff first, and SD100MAC is NOT a subway item.
I don't think Dave has a problem, we have been talking about Amtrak and other Transit Systems on this Forum for the longest, I think talking about other Transit Systems, Amtrak, etc. is what made this Forum very very popular.
"...but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only."
SD100MAC is not Amtrak, but a possible freight locomotive.
Haven't you heard? The folks at Railway Technology Center in Pubelo (Colo.) are working on a version of SD100MAC, dubbed the F100-ST (Subway Transit) which would fit the loading gauge of the NYC subway. It is to be used for hauling evacuation trains from Manhattan to upstate New York under diesel power via a (normally locked out of use) connection with the FRA railroad system at Yonkers, NY. These locomotives will be capable of hauling 80-car R-142 consists alone, and diesel is necessary because the FRA section of the haul has no third rail, and power may have already been cut in the event of another terrorist attack on Manhattan.
AEM7
Did no one believe me? Look, I was only trying to ensure that the thread is on-topic. Doesn't matter if it isn't accurate. We want to talk about SD100MAC's, so we have to somehow tie it to the NYCTA...
AEM7
Now now, m8 ... shouldn't be pulling that kinda stuff. We're SUBTALKERS, dammit. We know for a FACT that the 142A's are going to be replaced with Class 170 Turbostars. :)
And don't forget that Acela is due to replace the R-44's on the 'A' Line...
But on the A line, they're already IN the acela ... until Euclid. :)
No, it's YOUclid not MEclid Ave. (sorry, bad joke)
What r u talking about????????
It's a JOKE, son. Heh. Some of us who actually WORKED railroads tire of taking it all so seriously. "Acela" was a STUPID name. "Acela" is where the boiler is and your hot water tank. Smells funny too when it gets humid. :)
No offense to your subtalk "handle" or anything ... we're just having some fun. Don't mind us gasbags.
Why do the rich and famous live while we DIE. Equality! Equality!
Dave could always change the name to TrainTalk which its the MNRR/LIRR's version of Subtalk.
BTW SD-100 are operating in Denver.
For Real??? Where did you get that information from? And are there pics??
http://www.lightrail.com/carspecpages/sd100.htm
Hey I thought it was a Locomotive, not Light Rail, Damn, you tricked me, LOL
I kept it Transit related.
GOTCHA!
Ohhhhh You motherf**ka, just kiddin, LOL
"Ohhhhh You motherf**ka, just kiddin, LOL "
Professionals don't use street words.
Im not a Professional, and I am from the Ghetto, I just dont use street words online that much, I was just kiddin around.
In response to that Sunnyside post, how about using that massive space for subway storage use, mainly for the E,F,G,R,N,V,W,Q,7. If I do recall I heard in some newspaper that it was supposed to be part of the 63rd St Connector
I heard the unused section of Sunnyside might become an MTA yard for LIRR operations to GCT when the East Side Access line is built....I also heard it might become a NYCT yard for Queens Corridor lines (E,F,G,R,V)
Might have to be used for an LIRR storage yard when their fleet is increased for the East Side Project.
Recently the MTA proposed several new yards at the east end of many lines.
On the Huntington Branch one was proposed just east of the Huntington Station near Lake Road and Pulaski Road. The community fought it because there is mostly residential housing surronding the spot. I wouldn't be happy if after living peacefully in the area for 25 years I awoke one morning to the sounds, smells and lighting of a rail yard.
An alternate site, the old Cerro Wire site in Syosset near Robbins Lane and the LIE was suggested, since trains could be put into start the runs at Hicksville or the old Landia Station, if its ever rebuilt. This option may not come to fruition because right now a developer who wants to build an upscale mall on the property is in court with the Town of Oyster Bay regarding the town's denial of the project.
There seemingly isn't any other available space between Hicksville and Huntington to build a decent sized yard. Sunnyside may have to be the answer
It was talked about to use it as another subway yard. I don't know if it was the whole thing or just a part of it. Now since the LIRR East Side project is on the forefront it now seems unlikely. In the MTA capital plan for these 5 years there is only planning of another yard to offset Jamaica Yard's work load and storage. If something does happen, it won't be for a long time. Yards are very overcrowded now and with the R143's coming it will only get worse. They are supposed to add a few tracks in Jamaica Yard to ease storage. Roughly 20 trains are L/U on the express tracks between 75 Ave. and 169 St. at night. There seems to be a lot of land in the entire complex and hope one day that a part of it will become a yard with a barn. Train reliability should only improve with this needed addition.
I heard said that there was a proposal to transform that Sunnyside Yard into a new depot where the NJTRANSIT would use this new facility so that commuters could go east to west and west to east better than before. I think this was more of pipe dream to me, since nothing was said after that.
NJT *does* use the Sunnyside yards.
Elias
i've never seen a written proposal from any source regarding any plan to convert the yard for subway use. if you poke around the mta site though, i'm sure you'll find the plan to reuse it for LIRR train storage.
The idea of transforming the Sunnyside yard into a subway storage facility has been suggested several times over the past few years.
...i haven't seen anything formal though, while all of LIRR's GCT access plans show it becoming an MU storage yard after they dig it up to connect to 63rd.
i wonder if it would be possible (whine insanely expensive, i'm sure) to have a bi-level yard, one for lirr, one for subways?
The area is huge. There's room for both.
...the more i thought about this though, the more it makes some sense: there's been an idea for as long as i can recall to build a big station there - combining the subway routes, lirr, amtrak, NJT, mnrr and some connection to laguardia under one roof - putting in a 'lower level' and short tunnel reroute could easily provide a stub terminal for the G line.
ah, we can all dream big can't we?
A new Sunnyside station is in the works. The station will be built as part of the 63rd Street line construction. I believe, however, that it is intended to serve Penn-bound trains, not GCT-bound trains.
yes, it's suppose to go in under queens blvd. bridge (I wonder if they are leaving any provisions for it while they reconstruct it?), while the GCT access is suppose to branch off to the east of that spot, so on penn bound trains will make the stop.
there was a plan for something far bigger though, connecting all the lines in the area. it was suppose to go hand in hand with the redevelopment of LIC, but since that's taking years upon years, i doubt any of us will be alive if they ever get around to building such a massive terminal. (unless perhaps we get the 2012 olympics, and much of the lic waterfront is built up with condos for an olympic village as they hae proposed - then there might be a need for more a good central transit hub)
I think the R to S.I would be a great idea, and the F to the North Shore Towers area
Extend E or J service beyond Parsons-Archer to Green Acres Mall - Rosedale via Merrick Blvd. Also instead of the "Air Train" I think the A should have a spur built from the Rockaway Line ROW to the airport, and bring back the JFK Express, making the Train To The Plane what it originally should have been....a direct train to the airport terminals from Manhattan. Also I think extending the N line to LaGuardia would be good. Also extending the #7 train to Bayside/NE Queens.
"Also extending the #7 train to Bayside/NE Queens"
This sounds good, but don't do this in replace of a Second Avenue Subway, since Bloomberg has proposed "one or the other." -Nick
Bloomberg has proposed extending the 7 west, not east.
"Bloomberg has proposed extending the 7 west, not east."
Oh ok...my mistake. But nontheless, I think Bloomie will only go for one major subway line project. -Nick
Oh ok...my mistake. But nontheless, I think Bloomie will only go for one major subway line project. -Nick
OTH: I wouldn't consider *that* to be a maor subway project!
I'd add a station or two at each end of the (7) each with a turning loop for a terminal, and I'd boost that line to 45 tph!
*THAT* *is* an improvement.
Elias
i'd extend the 7 not only in manhattan, but in queens too, to as long as it can go
"OTH: I wouldn't consider *that* to be a maor subway project!"
What would be the estimated costs for this? If you don't know (and I'll understand if you don't), then you don't know how major it is..money talks! -Nick
What would be the estimated costs for this? If you don't know (and I'll understand if you don't),
You are right of course, I don't know,
but I *do* know that it is a heck of a lot less than a Second Avenue Subway.
This is extending an existing line two stops at each end, admittedly some of it deep under the Manhattan realestate, but still ooddles and ooddles less than a new line with all new equipment.
It is an especially small project on the Queens end for all of the extra value they will get out of the line for the improvement.
Elias
True, it's definitely less than a second avenue subway, but digging tunnels and adding stations gets costly. Therefore, I'm not sure if you could do this and a second avenue subway. If I had to choose, I'd build the 2nd avenue line. -Nick
If I had to choose, I'd build the 2nd avenue line. -Nick
Absolutly. All plans are secondary to a good Second Avenue Subway.
Elias
My proposal, as discussed earlier, is as follows:
I'd extend the Flushing Line not just to 11th Avenue as now proposed, but elevated to a loop terminal on the Hudson River Waterfront. I'd put a major ferry terminal there.
And, I'd extend the Times Square Shuttle east, through the Con Edison site south of 42nd Street, then at grade under the FDR to another ferry terminal. Stations would be added at 6th Avenue, Lex/3rd Avenue, 2nd Avenue, the Con Edison Site, and the Ferry Terminal.
Between the two, you'd have a complete crosstown line, providing ferry access from both rivers to the heart of Midtown. Since Downtown is already accessible to the water, watercraft could serve both Midown and Downtown with two stops.
This would be the equivalent of the long-discussed 42nd Street light rail, but with no loss of street lanes and far greater capacity.
You cannot *extend* the shuttle... it runs at the same level as the 7th Avenue line. You would foul up traffic on both lines.
Take a look at my LRV plan for Thirty Fourth Street. The only highway lanes that are eliminated are the parking lanes, and even then enough of them would remain for use as bus stops. Besides, the object is to keep CARS out of Manhattan, so.... a good LRV running to park and rides in both New Jersey and on Long Island, and a free circulator along 34th Street.
Similar could be done both on 42nd and on 57th or 59th.
An extension of the Flushing Line to Javits Center remains a good idea even if a 42nd St. LRV is in the cards. They do different things.
Elias
(*You cannot *extend* the shuttle... it runs at the same level as the 7th Avenue line. You would foul up traffic on both lines. )
The proposal is to extend it EAST to the East River. It is one level up from the Lexington Avenue line, though it orignially connected to that line, due to a grade change.
The 7 should go to Hoboken.
the Nostrand Ave. IRT should go to Sheepshead Bay and possible Coney Island.
The N should go back to CI (where it belongs).
The R should finally be extended to Staten Island as it was meant to be.
What about the N extended from Astoria to LaGuardia? It could even go to College Point (a neighborhood sorely in need of a subway link.) I do not think that we need a stop at Riker's Island though.
Well I agree with your ideas about the N line going beyond LGA to College Point. As far as N to C.I., that will be so in 4 years after the Stillwell Av. terminal complex is rebuilt. IRT to Sheepshead and Coney Island is also a good idea (a numbered route going to Coney Island again......bringing back the good ol' days!! :-) ). As far as the 7 going to Hoboken, this won't happen because then MTA has to go thru the Interstate Commerce Commission for something like this to work, and that is not easily done.
In Aug 96 I sent in a draft plan to extend the R into SIR. Got a response:
Basically the response was there were no plans for anything like this presently (train service bet SI and Brooklyn)
Would still be nice and maybe incorporate SI more as part of this city.
Extend the A line-Lefferts Blvd Branch would be nice too is that could go back underground (thinking of the winter issues)
Astoria line in Queens
I'd build Jamaica center into a loop so that E and J trains would not stop at all, but would just keep going....
If so, then I'd extend the (A) train to join this Loop.
Then we can start thinking about extensions to the East from Jamaica Center. Jamaica Avenue, Merrick Blvd and Linden Blvd are all good Choices. Extending the (F) up Hillside is also atractive, but only if the (Q) train (or something) terminates at 179 or 189 so that existing passengers have a chance at a seat.
Elias
I like the idea, but the only problem is that the Queens line and the J line have different length trains. All the J line stations would need to be extended. It may work however with the Lefferts A's and the Queens line though.
E and A trains would not run on the Jamaica.
My plan is for a loop that would run anti-clockwise:
A train from Jamaica or QB (or even from the New Myrtle Line) would follow south to Liberty Avenue (there to be joined by the (A), and follow Liberty with a stop at "Supthin South" then looping at Merrick Blvd and making the Parsons Street and the LIRR station stops before returning the (E) to Queensboro, the (J) to Jamaica and the (A) back to Liberty and Fulton.
There would be NO Bottleneck for the (E): it could run 60 tph if it wanted (other considerations permitting.
IF the Myrtle Fast Express were built, the local would turn on this loop and the expresses, using the upper level of the Archer Line would continue on out Jamaica Avenue (meaning EAST to the County Line) or on Merrick Blvd, or on Linden Blvd. These trains do not need high tph since they serve low density areas. Three or four East Queens Lines could join at Jamaica Center and then FLY across the express tracks on the New Myrtle Line at 75 or 80 mph!
One Stop in Brookly, one Stop at Wall Street and another at WTC via the Pineapple Tunnel. Who the heck needs the LIRR if you have this new Myrtle line.
Elias
Why cant they extend the M via LIRR (line that runs to Long Is City) express stops to Jamaica and get rid of the Z
If any extentions are done in Queens, yes its cheaper to build elevates, but they should really go back underground (keep thinking of the next snowstorm that may render elevates useless)
Elevateds have no problem in snow storms, the snows blow right off. It is ground level and open cut lines that get into trouble.
Anyway, with the exception of a few descrete lines, extending an existing line is out of the question.
I have a little collection of tweeks that would improve many services vastly.
Here is a plan for the (J) (Z) service: Making crooked ways straight.
Elias
Like the J/Z idea
Have a suggestion for the 7 line, contine via Parson Blvd, Willets Point Blvd as far as Utopia Pkwy or turn left up Francis Lewis to Cross Island Pkwy
The N should go to La Guardia,
The V (Or some line from Queens Blvd) should be extended south from the Queens Blvd's connection at 63rd Drive to the Former LIRR Rockaway Branch to provide service to that part of Queens.
The M should be exteded north along the NYCRR ROW to a terminal at Queens Blvd and Roosevelt Ave (maybe use the abandoned station), Or continue a little further to La Guardia.
I would love to see the Queens Blvd line extended east, but I don't think capacity exists for this to happen. The trains are already packed as they are. There would be no room for more people on those trains. It's not as easy as just making the tunnel, and sending the trains through. The only way that it would be possible to extend the Queens Line would be to make a new two track tunnel super express (like the 63rd St tunnel was envisioned to be used for, when it was first proposed.)
An extension of the Queens Line IND may not be as bad as you think, IMHO. It would be to the order of bringing the trains closer to the same amount of people, rather than having to overburden the bus routes that feed the lines. The main issue, in this scenario, would be having to slip extra trains into the schedule to maintain headways, since trains would be covering longer distances.
What you say is true, but not that true. When you extend the line, you upset a balance, a constellation of factors. You will attract riders to the (F) who might be taking a bus to the (7) or using the LIRR now.
If you extend the line, you must be prepared to inrease the service, by how much, who knows. You also need more trainsets to maintain the current tph since they have to cover more line before they can turn and come back.
Elias
(F) to Langdale and 268th Streets, Hillside Avenue, with the eastern end of the station abutting the Nassau County line.
(7) to Little Neck Parkway and Northern Blvd.
These should be done in tendem with some additional services, so not to overtax already overcrowded lines* . The LIRR lower Montauk line should be recaptured as a subway line, providing an express to the Hillside Line, bypassing the trouble at Queens Blvd. Also a new line, the (K) should be built, sharing the 14th St. line with the (L) until Lorimer, then remaining on Metropolitan Ave until Union Tpke, which it stays on unti LIJ.
No. I'm not holding my breath.
:-) Andrew
* It should be added, however, that even without extra lines, an extension of the (F) probably wouldn't do much to riders on the inner part of the Queens Blvd. line, which is served largely by locals that wouldn't reach the end of the line anyway.
The LIRR lower Montauk line should be recaptured as a subway line, providing an express to the Hillside Line, bypassing the trouble at Queens Blvd.
NOT...
I say run the LIRR to WTC via the Montauk, and then return the Atlantic line to the Subway System. Then when you extend *that* to WTC or whereever (via the Cranberry, Orange or Pineapple Tunnels, or what ever tunnel you want to build) you are not stealing a subway line to serve Long Island, but rather building a new subway line.
It also avoids any conflict (if andy) with the FRA.
Elias
I say run the LIRR to WTC via the Montauk, and then return the Atlantic line to the Subway System. Then when you extend *that* to WTC or whereever (via the Cranberry, Orange or Pineapple Tunnels, or what ever tunnel you want to build) you are not stealing a subway line to serve Long Island, but rather building a new subway line.
It also avoids any conflict (if any) with the FRA.
First of all, was the LIRR Atlantic Branch ever part of the subway before? I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
Second, how is your plan better? The Atlantic Branch essentially duplicates the J and A/C lines. The Lower Montauk could serve areas such as Maspeth and Glendale that are not currently served by the subway. And how would the LIRR Montauk Branch be a better route to WTC than the (much, much closer) Atlantic Branch?
:-) Andrew
First of all, was the LIRR Atlantic Branch ever part of the subway before? I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
You are right, the Atantic Branch was never part of the subway. However the LIRR did run a "rapid transit" type operation on the line when it still ran on the surface. Before the line was rebuilt as the grade seperated line it is now, the line ran right down the middle of Atlantic Ave with many stations.
As a subway line the Atlantic Branch of the LIRR would be basically redundant. Even if it was to be used as a super express subway, it would be redundant, as the Fulton subway handles the job very well, and is not running at capacity. If anything a super express could be used on Queens Blvd for the subway, where the LIRR runds parallel to the Queens Blvd line. But there the LIRR needs the capacity also, so that isn't going to happen.
As for the Lower Montauk branch, that is an underused line for passenger service that could be a very useful service if the LIRR increased service on the line or the subway took it over. If the LIRR service would use it, it would have to be a much more convenient service than the joke they used to run on it. Many more people would use it if it ran more frequently, and the stations were actually "stations" Better yet subway service would provide service right down the middle, between the Broadway el and the Queens line, and connecting to the M line at Metropolitan Ave, and providing subway service to an area of Queens that really is underserved.
One thing though, the line would have to be widened to accomadate at least 3 tracks, or better yet, 4 tracks if it were to be coneverted to subway, as the freight trains that use the line, can not share the tracks with a subway line, so at least one track would have to be left for freight. Freight form the line CAN NOT be eliminated. That's why I think a real LIRR service on the line would be easier to implement, as the it would not involve a major infastructure upgrade. The LIRR could share the tracks with the NY&A. All they would have to do is build a few stations along the line.
And how would the LIRR Montauk Branch be a better route to WTC than the (much, much closer) Atlantic Branch?
I'll grant you that the Atlantic line is closer physically, to the WTC than the Montauk Line is, but economically, and operationaly, I don't think so. Look again at my map LIRR to WTC.
To connect from Atlantic you have to get under and around many existing subway lines. It is quite doable, though I'd rather sneak more subway lines in trhough those openings.
Coming in from the Montauk, you tunnel south sout west from Long Island City to Avenue C, and then follow that around, moving deeply to the bedrock level where PATH used to be. You then have a four platform, 10 track station serving LIRR and NJT. It also provides the possibility of through freight traffic directly to the Sunnyside yards.
Depending on how an Atlantic Avenue line got to WTC, you would either need a LARGE TERMINAL FACILITY (read money) or an exit line to New Jersey anyway. Freight could not efficiently use the Atlantic Line, and it wouldn't get it to go where it wanted to go. Aslo if there were a reciprical NJT service, where would thier yard be?
So Look agian at the possibilities of my alignment:
1) FAST frequent LIRR service direct to WTC station with terminal services in New Jersey.
2) Fast frequent NJT services direct to WTC station with terminal services at Sunnyside Yard.
2b) NJT trains held at Sunnyside have the option of return via NYP or WTC.
3) Through to Newark Airport
4) Through to LaGuardia Airport
5) Metro North Service to WTC via Hell Gate Bridge
6) Through Freight Services to Sunnyside Yard with good connections to Hell Gate Bridge and all points on Long Island.
Given the flexibility of the LIC-Ave C alignment it gives options to combine services AND sources of financial support that do not exist on the Atlantic Avenue Route.
Elias
The Flushing Line, at both ends.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The 'D' to Co-op City -- connecting all of the North-South routes in The Bronx.
The '6' to Co-op City.
Put them in a two level Station at Co-op City.
It is impossible to get across town in The Bronx. All of the traffic is coming to/from the GWB and the overflow goes into all of the cross Bronx streets and neighborhoods.
F line to Francis Lewis Blvd.
E line to Rosedale
2/5 line to Floyd Bennett Field
D line to Co-op city
N/W line to Laguardia Airport
Rockaway shuttle to Breezy Point
E line from the WTC spur under the east river, connecting with the SIRT at St. George terminal
The D to Burke Avenue at White Plains Road. One stop, big difference!
I would like that to, the R Line's last stop is right next to the Verrazano, BUT, Money, Money, Money, is needed, and if that happens there is no need for the S.I. buses to invade on brooklyn.
1- 7 and L to New Jersey
2- 7 to bayside
3- 2 and 5 south to Coney Island and past stillwell av and continue west to seagate
4- 3 and 4 to rockaways
5- A as a Bronx Crosstown connecting the 1,(9),2,c,d,4,5,6 in the bronx
6- N and W to LGA
7- R to Staten
8- L to Breezy Point
9- S rockaway to breezy point
9- (if possible because of geographical issues)- 1, 5 and 9 past south ferry to staten island
Well I've seen that several other subtalkers, including me have come up with massive Second Avenue Subway Plans that are huge and are alot more impressive the the current one cooked up by the M.T.A. while the plans are alot more elaborate and expensive, I say that the options made by other people on subtalk, and then formally presented so people can see each other the plans and what they all have to offer to people. What does everyone think?
You guys should get together and draft a Second Ave Subway strategy. Get in contact with the Straphangers and arrange each of the proposal as an "option". Then try to schedule a formal meeting with the MTA and get the strategy in print. As they say, a document doesn't exist until you print it.
Of course, the options are just that -- options. Hopefully, if anyone ever wants to do the 2nd Ave Subway, each of those options would be subject to a cost-benefit analysis and may be one of the options would actually be chosen for implementation. If you guys are serious, you should really do this. Construct alternative routings, station locations, track layouts etc and if you put a document together, when they come to do a pre-feasibility they would love to use it as a basis. The worst they can do is to say "we reject all these options" -- but you know how good that would look in the NY Times.
Personally I tend to keep out of transit politics; I don't campaign for things, I just move to a city where the services are already excellent (and for me, that's the Boston Red Line at the moment). What more could you ask for, in Northeast Direct's heartland -- I am two seats away from Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Washington, Miami, New Orleans; three seats away from Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, and Texas. What more can I ask for?
AEM7
The 2003 WTC edition will debut at tonight's ERA meeting. I will be there selling them. Mail order will begin after the first of August.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
Great calandar. All color and lots of nostalgia. Very tastefully done. No bikini clad women on subway pictures either, so it is acceptable to my wife and other ladies.
I will be ordering my 2003 calendar and I am glad that it is out there. Thanks for those great calendar, they are my favorite calendars.
Peppertree:
Thanks for the vote of confidence. The calendar is still rated G.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill: You could still get pictures of women in there and have it rated G - put the Miss Subways posters in there.
I'd rather take a page from Playboy's "Women of Enron" - How about "Women of the MTA"? ;-)
LOL..maybe "sicktransitgloria" and "subwaygrrl" are up for some poses. (j/k...I mean no offense to anyone). -Nick
Hey Bill, are you going to post the ordering info?
-Hank
Hank E:
Yes, the ordering info will be posted. Probably after the 1st of August. With the changes in postal rates and other things related to mail order, I need some time to get it together. Hang in there SubTalkers !
Bill "Newkirk"
Give us a hint what pics are going to be used!
>>Give us a hint what pics are going to be used<<
Douce man:
The 2003 edition will break from past issues to mark one year that 9/11 changed this city, our country and our world.
Eleven of the twelve color pics show our beloved New York City subway cars with the Twin Towers in the image. All five boroughs are represented. Just a reminder of the times we waited for a train on a platform and saw the towers that no longer stand.
One image is of Museum Low-V's on a fundraiser posed for photos at Cortlandt St station. The same station that was heavily damaged in 9/11 and later demolished.
The front and rear covers are a comparison. The front page shot from Smith-9th Sts. with a four car R-46 (GG) train and the Twin Towers standing proud. The rear cover brings us to reality and was shot on the first Saturday after 9/11 with a four car R-46 (G) train and smoke rising from what is now known as "ground zero".
Page two of the inside cover shows the WFC and ground zero from Jersey City with the short lived "tribute in light". I have received many compliments and positive comments from many people in the short time it has been out. No comments about "cashing in on 9/11", just a reminder what happened only a year ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
With all who are asking, how much is it?
>>With all who are asking, how much is it?<<
Ten dollars, not including postage and sales tax for New York residents.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
Do we have to wait until August to buy them at "The Red Caboose", or will you be dropping them off soon? -Nick
>>Do we have to wait until August to buy them at "The Red Caboose", or will you be dropping them off soon? -Nick<<
I should be dropping off a half case next weekend. I'll announce it here to let you guys know.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
Excellent..thanks for the info! -Nick
Do you guys ship to Canada? I'd love to get one.
-J!
>>Do you guys ship to Canada? I'd love to get one.<<
JLeung,
Yes I do ship outside the U.S. I am gearing up for the mail order season and should be ready after the 1st of August.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill, I still have that picture you gave me of the the Triplex Sea Beach #4 a year ago. It is framed and in my living room. If you ever come across any of those type of pictures let me know. I would buy a whole calendar to get just one Triplex picture of my train.
I am VERY much looking forward to the new one. The 2002 hangs with PRIDE in my office here and has been an absolute joy. You even included my own favorite lines, the Brighton and the Third Avenue EL. Doesn't get any better than that.
For those who don't have Bill's calendars you have NO IDEA of the extreme quality of work you're missing. An ABSOLUTE must have!
I agree completely with that analysis.
Great Calendar. Just picked one up at the NYTM in Grand Central. I like the pictures with the WTC in the background along with the dates that portray the WTC as well.
Well done and Thanks.
Paul
Why not extend the #7 line over Grand Central Parkway out to LaGuardia Airport? If they can build an El over the Van Wycke Expressway they can do it there.
E_DOG
Are you sure that you want an El? What about extending the subway from Main Street.
What about the old World's Fair IND tracks from 1939? I guess that they are not there but is there still a right-of-way? Extending those old tracks over the water would perhaps be similar to the Rockaway (Broad Channel) tracks over Jamaica Bay. Then they would have six lines under Queens Blvd. unless the G was rerouted to Laguardia.
What do you think?
I wholly agree with both counts. It's just that an El would be cheaper and take less time to build.
E_DOG
The short answer is that there is no excess capacity on the Flushing Line to devote to airport trains.
"The short answer is that there is no excess capacity on the Flushing Line to devote to airport trains."
Don't some 7 trains terminate at Willets Point or 111th anyway? You could send those out to LaGuardia. In any case, not everyone on the 7 rides to the last stop, so by the time you are that far out there is excess capacity.
Not just an issue of riding to the last stop, it would be adding to the crowding west of QP.
"Not just an issue of riding to the last stop, it would be adding to the crowding west of QP."
That's only an issue if airport riders ride in significant numbers in rush hour. A plane would have to arrive at LGA by 8 AM at the latest for its passengers to be part of the morning rush.
I admit there's more of an issue in the evening. But still, I don't think it's such a big deal. Aren't we talking 100s or a 1000 passengers per hour for an airport, as opposed to the tens of thousands the 7 line can handle?
The Newark airtrain certainly isn't carrying a passenger load that is noticeable by transit standards.
If you split off the Flushing line just east of the Willets Point station and put a new platform on the spur tracks to allow it to stop at Shea Stadium (or whatever new park is built there), then to allow bus passengers getting on the 7 at Flushing full access, the bus lines now terminating at Main St. could be extended to the Shea parking lot.
The routes for the 7 could be divided -- AM inbound/PM outbound expresses and some locals would start/finish at Main Street, while the remaining locals would go to LGA. The biggest problem would be it would require a few more changes at Junction Blvd., for Main St. passengers wanting to transfer to and from the IND at 74th St.
Once you get the new line on the east/north side of the Grand Central Parkway, there are virtually no obsticles between Shea and LGA that would incite the normal NIMBY protests/lawsuits. The same can't be said for the current MTA plan to extend the N train past Astoria to LGA. While the N can handle the added ridership better, Astoria residents seeking to block the el's extension would be a much tougher opponent in court.
No trains that I know of terminate before Main Street, but I could be wrong.
An extremely high number of 7 riders get off at Main Street, the last stop. It has the highest ridership by far on the line.....about 16,000,000 fares a year, I think.
On weekdays, there are some 111th Street put-ins (Manhattan-bound) in the morning, and there are some Willets Point drop-outs (Queens-bound) in the afternoon.
In 2000, Main Street had 16,582,358 riders (including students and senior citizen/disabled return-trip tickets), making it the 13th-busiest station in the system and the busiest outside of Manhattan. Second on the Flushing Line was Junction Boulevard, with 6,114,861 riders. (NOTE: 74th Street and Queensboro Plaza were not counted on this list as being on the Flushing Line since they are served by more than one line -- the same goes for the three Manhattan stations).
David
And besides, I believe the ASTORIA line is better suited for a LaGuardia extension. The 7 line just seems...well, out of range.
You cannot *extend* the (7) to LAG because the end of the line is already well past LAG.
In theory it *might* be possible to make a branch off of it to LAG, but the (7) is already saturated with the busness it has, and one more merge would strangle the whole thing.
Now, did I ever tell you about *my* plan?
It brings LIRR / NJT trains to both LAG and EWR via WTC.
The tracks to EWR are already in place, and to LAG the route only needs a mile or two to connect the Hell Gate line to LAG with all construction over/under the Grand Central Parkway ROW.
No (meaningul) NIMBYs to contend with, faster service going to a meaningful destinations such as WTC, NYP or even GCT when the connector is open. And with a reverse move, it will have no problem connecting with Jamaica and JFK.
Yes, I must say, I *like* my plan!
Elias
How would the #7 line find a route toward LaGuardia?
Right over Grand Central Parkway.
E_DOG
Trains would have to make a sharp left hand turn to do that. Maybe run the line thru Shea Stadiun Parking lot. What do you have in mind?
Have a branch veer off just west of GCP and run over the parkway itself to the airport.
E_DOG
West of the Grand Central Parkway at Roosevelt and what? I'm just trying to picture where.
That "Won't" was a neat exchange for "May". So neat in fact, I almost missed it.
E_DOG
I did miss it until you mentioned it.
So tell me what route would you use toward LaGuardia? If the #7 train makes a left hand turn at Roosevelt and the Grand Central, (and a sharp left at that) it would have to cut thru the west parking lot at Shea. I'm not trying to argue with you. I just want to know how you're routing this thing.
I think he means branching off the route to the Gran Central Pkway median, which would make the & have another line running with it west of this new junction. The idea is good in theoty, but I don't think the Steinway tubes can handle two routes. Even though you would have less 7's because of the other line, it would still be more trains than the line can handle, as I think the tubes are almost at capacity.
Also the stations east of the junction would have service cut to less trains because of the new trains, from the new route, west of the junction.
I think the idea is good in theory. But at that intersection, trains would have to make a sharp left turn to get to the Grand Central. And with the yard lead to Corona near the same spot, it would be very difficult to build. And if the curve at Queensboro Plaza is an indication, the turn at Roosevelt and the GCP it would be very loud. NIMBY's would be out in force.
Before E_DOG jumps all over me for disagreeing with his route, I'll propose mine. Have the trains use the 2 yard leads going to Corona Yard. Set aside 2 tracks and build a platrform there for people who want to go to Shea or Flushing Meadow Park. Just like the platform at 148 St/Lenox Terminal which was once part of Lenox Yard. At the end of the yard build an connection to the former ROW of the LIRR Whitestone Branch. Have it run in the grassy area between Willet's Point Blvd and the Flushing river. If the area has to be built up, I think it'll be cheaper than building a new tresle along the GCP. When the route gets near Flushing Bay, have it turn left and approach the airport beginning with where the shuttle planes are. Eventually the route can go to the Arrivials/Departure terminal.
Would this portion be elevated or not? If so you start to run into problems with runway 13-31 at LGA, which is a short runway to begin with. The pilots and FAA would start squawking; and if you thought the NIMBY`S were bad........
The route would be built on embankment after leaving the yard. Maybe it would be fortified alongside the Flushing River. As it approaches LaGuardia I see it as between the GCP and the airport itself. Maybe as it approaches the airport it would move to an elevated structure.
Why not keep th W and extend it across Ditmars Boulevard? That way there an express into Manhattan and not clog the Queens Boulevard lines.
I think it's a great idea. (why contoversial?) The only problem I see is that another route would have to be run with the 7, and I don't know if the Steinway Tubes have capacity to carry the extra load.
Someone asked recently whether any BMT Broadway Line stations had originally been set up for 10-car B-types, which would have made them 670 ft. +/-.
I just ran across a 1969 article by Dave Rogoff about Broadway Line station lengthening and it showed that all stations needed lengthening to approximately 615 feet for 10 R-types. The lengthening were from about 40 feet up to about 80 feet.
The only station not mentioned was Lexington Avenue, so at least for all the rest, they were obviously never 670 feet.
I know someone answered this a while ago, but I forgot. I believe 28th and Rector are longer than some of the other Broadway stations. Are they 670 feet?
I guess all of the platform lenghtening was done prior to the Chrystie St connection during the '60's. I dont recall where, but I saw the entire brochure for the Brighton Line platform elongation that took place during much of 1964!!! Tony Leong
28th and Rector are longer than the others, because very long portions were added and then parts of the earlier station were supposed to have been abandoned.
I don't recall the specific reasoning in those cases, but such extension/abandonment combinations were usually done either to move a station portion off a curve and/or to accomodate a new entrance/exit on the extended portion. Both came into play when DeKalb was extended notth.
109 feet were supposed to be abandoned on the north end of downtown Rector and 87 feet on the uptown. 55 feet were supposed to be abandoned on the north end of both 28th Street platforms. The effect in both cases would be to move the stations south.
Doing a bit of math on the 109 foot abanonment at Rector--if you assume that the surviving platform is 615 feet, and if all of the original platform still exists, that would make BMT Rector downtown 724 feet long!
I'll leave it to someone else to report on the status of the "abandoned" portions--blocked off? sitting there? demolished?
It is walled off and you can see it in all its non glory when you ride the train.
The moves were probably done for spacing purposes between stations -- Cortlandt could only be extended a very little ways north, because of the Vescey St. 'S' curve, so it had to be pushed south, which forced them to move Rector's platforms to the south (and very much downhill) as well.
The same was probably true at 34th St. with the platform extension south towards 32nd, the TA probably decided the stations would be too close together for proper spacing between trains if the 28th St. station wasn't moved a little further south.
Maybe they should have just abandoned 28th Street Station altogether. That would have made the distance between stations more like that of the IND lines. Didn't the NYCTA want to unify the whole Subway system anyway?
- Lyle Goldman
That would just crowd the IRT even more. From what I can tell, a lot of people use that station (more than use your home station). Either allocate ~30 seconds to stop there or take the express.
The 28th Street station had a walled off area at the north end, that you could see from passing trains. What used to be cool about it is that when the Broadway stations'old tilework was covered, you were able to see the old 28th Street name tablets there, and all the lights were on. Now of course all the 60's tiles are removed, but before that it was a real treat. I don't know if they readded that end of the station in the current renovation, I haven't been there in a while, and the last time I was there I was too busy looking at the newly exposed mosaics as the train flew by to notice.
While on the subjet of Broadway stations, I was just wondering why they didn't restore the mosaics at the N/R Canal Street station, like they did on most of the other Broadway stations. The new look is definitely better than the cement block 70's tile that is underneath, but I wonder why they didn't restore the very nice mosaics that are under the 70's tile. The Canal St "bridge" station didn't have it's mosaics restored because those mosaics say "Broadway' not Canal, as the station's name changed, so i can understand them not restoring that one, bit I don't know why they kept the N/R Canal St mosaics covered, and they even have little pictures of the "canal", similar to Union Square's picture from I guess the token booth area:
Anyone know why they kept these covered?
similar to Union Square's picture from I guess the token booth area:
Ooops, I made it sound like the photo is from Union Square. To be clearer, I meant to say that the photo must be from Canal's token booth area, and that they are similar to Union Square's:
When was there a canal on Canal St?
This is just a guess, from what I think I remember about it, but I think back in the 1600's or 1700's. It was filled in long ago. But Canal Street is actually named for a "canal" that was there long ago.
It was VERY long ago. I've seen maps from the time of the revolution that don't show it.
IIRC, the canal for which Canal Street was named drained Collect Pond, which was located roughly north of Worth Street where the Toombs is location. The pond itself became such a source of pollution and disease that it was obliterated to improve the health of the city (of course, since the esatern edge of area by the mid-1800s had become the notorius Five Points ghetto, draining the pond didn't solve all the problems).
Before there was a subway on it! :^)
I can sau only slightly tongue-in-cheek that there still is! The Canal Street BMT Express station is supposed to be built as a giant coffer dam to preclude water seepage. And before the West Side highway was torn down, it used to span Canal Street with a long bridge because of the softness and porousity of the soil there.
When I worked in the American Bank Note companies underground vault, you could still hear gurgling (and experience mosquitos) from the rerouted waters that once fed the canal that once made Broad Street broad.
The Canal Street BMT Express station is supposed to be built as a giant coffer dam to preclude water seepage.
Nice try, but I'm afraid it didn't work.
The Canal Street BMT Express station is supposed to be built as a giant coffer dam to preclude water seepage.
Nice try, but I'm afraid it didn't work.
Why do you say so? If it didn't work, you could probably catch trout on the A2 track. ;-)
Is this close enough?
Don't see no trout. Not even a minnow.
Obviously those guys in the picture were on a fishing expedition. Were you one of them?
Don't see no trout. Not even a minnow.
No Skipper, Maryanne, or Professor either.
>>>When was there a canal on Canal St? <<<
There was a canal there in the early 1800s that drained water from the Collect Pond (which was where Foley Square is now). The pond was filled in and the canal was removed by the Civil War...
The Vickers tilework in the Canal St BMT station shows the bridge where Broadway would cross the canal.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Very interesting, I heard that before, I just didn't know when the canal was removed. For some reason I thought it was removed earlier than that. Well obviously the Collect Pond is not totally dead, as Canal is still one of the leakiest stations......always water dripping from somewhere (especially in the bridge station). A little better after the renovation, but the problem is still there.
It's still a shame that they didn't uncover the old tilework on the N/R platform when they did the renovation, although the new tiles are still an improvement over the 70's tile.
Apparently the original water course on what is now Canal Street was widened to a formal canal with a 40 foot width, sidewalks and trees about 1805. Not all that long after, by about 1820 or so the city fathers (and maybe a few of the mothers as well) had a change of art, and the waters were diverted into a sewer (probably still extant) and the street paved over.
They shoulda kept the canal. For my money, Canal Street is one of the most unattractive in New York, full of honking trucks and smoke, crowded, impassable sidewalks. To this day I have yet to walk Canal its entire length, unlike every other major E-W NYC street south of the park.
You know, a mid Manhattan expressway wasn't such a bad idea...provided it was COMPLETELY in a tunnel.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've never walked the full length of Canal, but I've walked Bowery to Hudson Street or West Street many times. Very interetsing cultural and shopping experience, though you have to dodge a lot of traffic (human and motor) at most hours.
An Amsterdam-style canal-street would be quite a pleasant addition to New Amsterdam!
Also, the Broadway lengthenings were done several years after Chrystie Street. The Brighton Line was done in the mid-60s in anticipation of Brighton Ds running up 6th Avenue.
Just as I thought. Every BMT station from 57th St to Whitehall St has obvious signs of later platform extensions, as does every Brighton/4th Ave. station in Brooklyn.
I was the one who asked about whether some of the stations on the BMT Broadway Line were set up to handle 10 car trains of "B" types "Standards". Some of the IND stations on the Queens Line were set up to handle 11 car trains of R-1/9s.
#3 West End Jeff
Then I guess you read the answer, Jeff. In short, the stations weren't set up to handle 10 car trains of Standards, but two stations, 28th Street and Rector Street, ended up super long because of a combination of extension and abandonment about 1970.
Were there any plans by the BMT itself to extend certain stations so that thay could handle 10 car trains of "B" types "Standards"?
Were the any plans by the BMT itself to extend some of the station so that they could handle 10 car trains of "B" types "Standards"?
#3 West End Jeff
I never heard of any such plans. Eight was it--you know the "8" car marker was unlike all the rest, shaped like home plate.
If the BMT had stayed in business--who knows?
An interesting side note of the NYCTA era extensions was thatthe capital budget request specified that the lengthenings were for "nine BMT or ten IND cars" despite the fact that the possibility of running a 9-car BMT Standard set was rapidly disappearing. If only they had decided to make the R-143s 67 feet...
If they had made the R-143s 67' long they probably would have been arranged in three car sets. Too bad the NYCTA didn't toy around with the idea of a modern version of a "Triplex".
Too bad the NYCTA didn't toy around with the idea of a modern version of a "Triplex".
A mystery to me is why the TA has never even considered articulateds. I guess part of it is conservative management. No other city had more experience with artics.
You're right in saying that. The city had experience with the "Triplexes", "Multi-Sections" and the "Bluebird". Why can't the T/A build A modern version of these AND, it can go through anything.
#3 West End Jeff
Also experimented with streetcar articulations. "Duplexes" and "Two rooms and a bath."
I'm aware of the "Duplex" streetcars. I wonder which streetcar lines in Brooklyn they operated on?
#3 West End Jeff
I'm certain of the existence of only one. It was initially used on the DeKalb Avenue Line. It was a true articulated, with two bodies and three trucks.
Where there any other lines that the duplex streetcars ran on?
#3 West End Jeff
DeKalb is the only line that I know of. And as I said, there may have been only the one unit.
If only they had decided to make the R-143s 67 feet...
They tried that with the R110B, figuring if the Standards cleared,
these things would. Unfortunately they made a mistake with the
wheelbase and they didn't clear in the east.
If the BMT had stayed in business--who knows?
Had they stuck around, or had the BMT crew become the predominant
mindset of the "B" division, instead of the Board of Transportation,
we would have seen a very different fleet. The D types
would probably have still been running in the 1970s and most
of the fleet would have been PCC-based designs such as the Bluebird.
If only they had decided to make the R-143s 67 feet...
They tried that with the R110B, figuring if the Standards cleared,
these things would. Unfortunately they made a mistake with the
wheelbase and they didn't clear in the east.
Ah, so that was the reason? Do you mean the wheelbase on the truck (axle to axle), or the truck centers (kingpin to kingpin)? The Standards had a relatively short kingpin to kingpin distance (47 feet, IIRC) for such a long car.
If the BMT had stayed in business--who knows?
Had they stuck around, or had the BMT crew become the predominant
mindset of the "B" division, instead of the Board of Transportation,
we would have seen a very different fleet.
I had heard that the City considered hiring the BMT as a management team (the Corp lasted until 1943) but the BofT bureaucrats won out. I've never independently confirmed that.
Do you mean the wheelbase on the truck (axle to axle), or the truck
centers (kingpin to kingpin)? The Standards had a relatively short kingpin to kingpin distance (47 feet, IIRC) for such a long car.
The 110B's also had a 47' bolster-to-bolster (kingpins aren't
used anymore) spacing, BUT: The bolster on an AB is NOT centered
with respect to the wheelbase. The trucks were "maximum traction"
using 31" wheels on the trailer axle and 33" on the driving axle.
The truck bolster was shifted by about a foot to place more of
the body weight on the driving axle.
I had heard that the City considered hiring the BMT as a management team (the Corp lasted until 1943) but the BofT bureaucrats won out. I've never independently confirmed that.
I've never heard that one way or the other. It's a shame. Menden
was a very good leader and a progressive railroader, and
Rossell was an innovator. I think Menden retired after the BOT
takeover and Rossell went on to St. Louis and eventually lead the
TRC. There's no doubt that, at least in the 30s and 40s, the BMT
was leagues ahead of the IND and IRT in terms of rail car technology.
The R-1 was on par with the D types, a bit stodgier, but the BMT
was moving forward, while by 1940 all you could say about the R-9
was that the red & white running lights were now controlled by
a toggle switch instead of by hand! The 1938 IRT WF cars also
didn't represent much of an advance from the 1917 Lo-Vs (other
than the control and brake gear, which was simply what WABCO &
Westinghouse had in their catalog that year). Now, no offense to
Selkirk and Mark W, respectively, as I like both the R-9s and
IRT WF cars. At least they were reliable workhorses, whereas some
of the BMT advanced stuff was tempermental.
No offense taken om the Arnines ... much like GOLF (you MEAN the LOW SCORE WINS?!?!?!) I just played the ball (consist) wherever it landed. BEING Catholic, I *PRAYED* when I was on the bridge. Up AND DOWN ... BOTH ways. :)
Did you have a rosary with you?:-)
OK I'm hearing from various people that there were more subway delays today and last night, both on the A and C lines.
Anybody have any more details?
Well today was supposed to be cooler, but by early afternoon it just got too hot in the city and I had to leave.
Had Redbirds on the #7 both ways, good A/C but things got packed from the Junction people. Also had to wait about 10 minutes for a train each way (big gap).
Going I took a 7 to the W train, to Canal street. After breaking out in profuse sweat by the time I got as far east as Bowery, I had to turn back because I was faint (this was 10:30am).
Going out of Chinatown I took an ice cold slant R40 N train, so welcome on a "dragon breath" day like today.
I took it to 49th street. I have a question tho. There are signs for a Rockefeller center passageway at the exit on the north side of 49st, but the doors are all closed. I guess they haven't finished it yet. The exit is part of a new office building.
After taking in some breathable air in 1251 and Wendy's, I decided to "head for the hills" as going outside was just not an option.
I took a V train down to 42nd st, and waited in the extremely steamy 5th ave station for the 7 train.
About 10 minutes, I was burnin up.
I'm just glad I had luck on my side and Con Ed didn't go out on me.
I love railfanning and visiting the city, but it's just too hot this summer. I can't wait till the summer is over.
On the L train at 14th Street Station (1st cars of 8th Ave bound) have mounted fans above. Its not air conditioned but it helps a lot.
Yeah fans would help, especially those powerful industrial fans they sell at a store right at Canal and Mercer.
They have fans at GCT but they don't seem to powerful, the ones at Union square are more powerful.
I love railfanning and visiting the city, but it's just too hot this summer. I can't wait till the summer is over.
I don't think we've had a day since early June where the high failed to reach 80 degrees, nor do I think we've been under 65 at night more than once or twice in that stretch.
In fact, I've been trying to find a site that shows a chart of daily highs and lows for the city on a day-to-day basis. I'd love to compare this summer to summers past. Since this is only my second NYC summer, I really don't know if this string of hot days is typical or warmer than usual. I do know that I can't wait until the latter half of September. Cool temperatures, new Sopranos episodes and good HF propagation again!!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
"I really don't know if this string of hot days is typical or warmer than usual."
Midsummer mean in NYC is 78 with a high of 86 and a low of 70 (more or less). This summer has probably been about normal.
The NY Times used to have a day by day temperature chart on its weather page a few days after the end of the month. Haven't seen it for a while though.
I think the National Weather service site at http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/okx has some statistics for Central Park.
It has been warmer than normal this summer, we've already hit 90 more times than last year, and the summer aint over yet.
.. Or does no one else on this board like the Kawasaki built New Tech Trains? The Bombardier built units are a whole other story..
Actually if y ou search through the archives you would be asking "Or does no one else on this board like the Bombardier built New Tech Trains?"
I like the R142A and the R143. I don't mind Bombardier's R142, but I think Kawasaki built a better car; they paid more attention to design. -Nick
Every old timer in TA will tell you that new trainsets bring new problems that require 'teething time.' Kawasaki and Bombardier New Tech share many common parts...it is how they are installed/quality control that put Bombardier in second place. CI Peter
Good to note that, Peter! :-) -Nick
... bring back the low V ..........!!
Is there any plans for any other Rail Companys in the US to order the F59PHI Loco's? I would love to see those Locos run the NJT Rails, but they already got the ALP-46 coming in.
Actually, they are ordering new diesel locomotives from GEC-Althstrom with an EMD 710 engine with AC traction. The body is similar in design to the F59PHI.
Amtrak or NJT?
NJT!
Oh sh*t! That'll be cool!
Hey Acela, check out NJT's homepage, or in NJT's website. They have the info on it.
Good Lookin!
No railroad has placed orders for these units. However the F59PHI are operated by these TRANSIT agencies.
North Carolina
Dallas/Fort Worth
Seattle, with one set leased to Northern Virginia
and others
One private firm received delivery on a pair, but did not operate them and sold them to Metrolink. That was the Marlboro Train. They had problems with the Hot Tub not working on one of the cars and the firm bailed out of the project.
I already know about the F59PHI being at other Transit Systems, I kinda wish that the LIRR had of purchased the F59PHI Locomotives instead of the DE-30AC Locomotives.
Maybe, but who wants to buy a dinosaur based on 50 year old, and very obsolete technology? In any case, Tier I or Tier II EPA regulations will kill the GM 2 stroke, since the design is effectively EOL anyway. I suspect at that point, GM will bail from the locomotive industry, leaving GE, though GE can't design a locomotive to save their life either.
I predict within 10 years, there will be zero passenger locomotive orders at GE or GM, and the Europeans will have cut into freight locomotives too.
I predict within 10 years, there will be zero passenger locomotive orders at GE or GM, and the Europeans will have cut into freight locomotives too.
OK, who? I can't think of a single freight locomotive design in Europe that currently exceeds 2,800hp and works reliably. This includes former soviet bloc countries.
Let's see Germans try to build diesel hydraulics for Union Pacific and then let's see the Germans discover that hydraulic fluids freeze up in Cheyanne, Wyo.
AEM7
It's not a dinosaur, it very modern and sleek.
yes like a slant 40 body on an R 10 guts. Phillip is basicly correct that the newer EPA regs --you do like to breathe eh?-- are not technicly possible with a 2 stroke diesel burning the high sulphur sludge currently used. And even the supposedly much cleaner newer designs may be fine on delivery, but spend enough time trackside and you will see some real 'smokers'.
Modern andsleek like a Porsche 959 body on '43 Chevy chassis. The outside may be pretty, but the guts are a whole other story.
-Hank
The F59PHI is good inside and out, I wish that Locomotive would replace some of the Genesis Locos over in the Northeast.
It's a dinosaur. It uses a 50 year old engine design with decades old traction gear, running on a long obsolete truck design, with obsolete construction. It's amazing EMD even manages to sucker anyone into buying them anymore.
Maybe if it were IGBT AC traction, 100 tons, monobody, fabricated radial trucks, and 4200 HP prime mover, it might be worth a second look, but EMD's proven time and time again they can't make a modern passenger locomotive. IOt's no wonder NJT has looked overseas for their next diesels, and I suspect once the Euros get decent with prime movers (and they're pretty close already), you'll see GE and EMD depart the passenger market, and eventually freight.
Doesn't EMD have a fabricated radial truck for their freight locomotive line?
It's no wonder NJT has looked overseas for their next diesels, and I suspect once the Euros get decent with prime movers (and they're pretty close already)
So tell me Phil, as I challange you time and again, tell me WHICH flipping Euro prime mover you mean, and WHICH fucking Euro engine. I have never seen ONE Euro diesel engine that beats an EMD, let alone a GE.
Why do you think EWS bought from EMD? Why the hell do you think Ed Burkhardt's railroad bought 125mph passenger locomotives from EMD for Britain?
The truth is, European built diesels are a PIECE OF SHIT. The Brush class 60 -- availability 80%-85% 6 years following delivery. Klaus-Maffai is still making DIESEL HYDRAULICS...
AEM7
Still no response from Phil as to what prime movers from Europe are any good. I wonder if this means he doesn't actually know, and he just likes Europe for the hell of it.
I don't profess to be an expert on European diesel motive power, but this is what I know about European diesel prime movers. Usually, in line with European tradition of engineering, prime movers are designed in such a way as to minimize the need for initial capital (and often resulted in complex maintenance regimes). For example, the prime movers in the GP-9's were rated for 1,750hp but were often found to be good for overclocking up to 2,000hp or even 2,250hp if maintenance was stepped up. Of course, the extra hp was not worth the cost of the additional maintenance, which is why in general EMD was quite conservative in specifying the horsepower ratings. This also made them more reliable, which is what gave EMD its reputation for reliability.
On the other hand, the Europeans often pushed things to the limit, because the engineering culture was such that precise, scheduled maintenance could be relied upon to bring the engine back to standard, so theoretically the engines can run at their true maximum rated power with very little in reserve. For example, the English Electric "Deltic" engine was designed around a "maintenance by replacement" system when the locomotives would go into Doncaster works to have their engines lifted out and replaced with a spare set every 5,000 engine hours or so. This minimized the downtime of the locomotive, whilst ensuring that engines had time out of service to enable maintenance to be performed. Indeed, because of this maintenance regime, many more Deltic engines were built than locomotive shells. (See also http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/deltic.htm)
The English Electric 16CSVT was the engine that was fitted to the DP2 and the class 50. Again, various stories have been told about their poor reliability. These locomotives were initially leased to BR by EE, who collected a premium for every day when the engine availability was over 80% on a fleet of 50 locomotives (i.e. only 40 locomotives needed to be available at 0900 on a given day). Despite the high spare ratio, EE often never made the grade. The engines were scrapped in the late 1980s due to their high maintenance costs.
The class 47, which was built by Brush of Loughborough, is still in use by Virgin Trains today. British James will have one or two things to say about their reliability, so I shall leave that up to him. The updated version of the engine went into the class 60, which, as I mentioned previously, despite being 10 years old already, still has never reached a consistent level of availability beyond about 85%.
This is contrasted with the EMD-built class 66 which has consistently attained an availability figure between about 95%-97% since their delivery, despite major incidents that occured to some of the locomotives.
Two reasons not to buy European shite:
(1) The U.S. fleet people will never be able to adapt to the kind of maintenance regime required to make an European-built engine reliable.
(2) Although EMD's engines may be outdated, but it works. In fact, the EMD class 66 (710 prime mover, 12 cylinders) are dominating the European locomotive market, including some 20 units in Sweden and 10 units in Germany.
Oh, and I just remembered, recently SJ received a bunch of diesels from Adtranz (Bombardier) plant in Germany. Those were so poorly performing that the Swedes sent the engines back to Germany and cancelled the order. Contrast this with EMD's experience in Europe, with repeat orders from three freight operators in the UK and exploratory orders from many operators on the continent.
AEM7
or example, the English Electric "Deltic" engine
Eugh!!! Perhaps the ugliest loco EVER. IIRC, they built that rather than a Bullet Train type thing because the railways were redundant and we'd all be using helicopters by 1970. Oops.
British James will have one or two things to say about their reliability, so I shall leave that up to him.
LMAO! Thanks - let's say that people in Saltley (not particularly nice area of Birmingham, UK) would be embarrassed by Virgin Trains running one called "Pride of Saltley".
Two reasons not to buy European shite:
(3) If they're gonna pedal Third World standard equipment, they should charge Third World prices. "Class 47 - mint condition (i.e. still can't get the damn thing to start) - what am I bid? £60? £50? £40? £30 in the corner... any more bids... going once... going twice... gone - sold to the gentleman with the gigantic spliff!"
(4) In 1923, it took 2 hours to get from Birmingham Snow Hill to London. In 2002, it takes 2 hours 15 minutes to get from Birmingham Snow Hill to London - i.e. the European shite is SO shite it was better in the age of steam.
(5) Ever seen the doors manage to close on a Class 323? I have. It took them 20 minutes.
"Why the hell do you think Ed Burkhardt's railroad bought 125mph passenger locomotives from EMD for Britain?"
I'm puzzled by that statement. The 125 mph power cars of Britain's so-called High Speed Trains were bought by BR in the 1980s, before privatisation, so that wasn't "Ed Burkhardt's railroad". So far as I can think, the only 125+ mph locos bought for Britan since then have been electric, more recent diesel passenger trains have all been multiple-units, and more recent diesel locos are for freight, which certainly doesn't go at 125 mph. What locos are you talking about, AEM7?
Fytton.
I'm puzzled by that statement. The 125 mph power cars of Britain's so-called High Speed Trains were bought by BR in the 1980s,
Correct.
So far as I can think, the only 125+ mph locos bought for Britan since then have been electric
Incorrect.
You're classifying the class 67 as a mail-and-express freight locomotive. It is actually a fully-featured passenger locomotive passed for 125mph operation. I had my doubts about the class 67 when they first proposed it; my first thought was: "How can Americans build high speed locomotives?" Well they proved me wrong. My first ride on a class 67 was on the Sleeper going up to Inverness. I was very impressed with its performance as a passenger locomotive, although the HEP (ETH) provisions aren't perfect, that can be easily rectified with the installation of a dedicated generator.
GNER was talking about a class 68 (one-ended version of the class 67) to replace the HST power cars, and Great Western was also interested in a fleet of class 67's to replace the class 47's. They are still trialling class 57's at this point -- another EMD product. Virgin just bought a whole bunch of class 57's, all with EMD prime movers.
If Europeans could build prime movers for shit, I don't think Richard Branson of all people would not have bought British. He was the one who (stupidly) bought A340's that rattles for his Virgin Atlantic airline.
AEM7
Thanks for the information -- I haven't been reading the Railway Magazine regularly enough!
Fytton.
It's not even as up to date as an SD90MAC running on 1/2 of its cylanders.
-Hank
Modern and sleek like a Porsche 959 body on '43 Chevy chassis.
Please excuse the nitpick, but there was no '43 Chevy (or '44 or '45). The '46 was essentially a '42 built after the war.
[disclaimer: I'm not a car buff; this is from memory (yes, I'm nearly as old as Sea Beach Fred).]
Modern and sleek like a Porsche 959 body on '43 Chevy chassis.
Please excuse the nitpick, but there was no '43 Chevy (or '44 or '45).
Nitpickin' right back at you, Bob... there were - at least trucks - but built exclusively for the military. Chrysler continued to produce a limited number of Desoto models for military staff car use throughout the war, although I believe they were all officially designated as 1942 models regardless of what year they were actually built.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
STOP THE CAR TALK!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS MADNESS!!!!!!!!
Hippocrit
Maybe, but who wants to buy a dinosaur based on 50 year old, and very obsolete technology? In any case, Tier I or Tier II EPA regulations will kill the GM 2 stroke, since the design is effectively EOL anyway. I suspect at that point, GM will bail from the locomotive industry, leaving GE, though GE can't design a locomotive to save their life either.
I predict within 10 years, there will be zero passenger locomotive orders at GE or GM, and the Europeans will have cut into freight locomotives too.
Ain't gonna happen, the euroclowns can't design a freight engine to save their @$$ However Siemens could take EMD over (they are a big stake holder in EMD's AC Technology, mate it with the very best diesel technology and above all, keep the EMD design team intact. DC locomotives also are needed for switching and other light duty assignments, so the D87 motor has decades left in it's product cycle. Heck, oil drillers use the D87 to turn their drills. The ONLY way European manufacturers will enter the US locomotive market is through acquisition and if the US government lets them in, they are libertarian free market I*D*I*O*T*S who learned nothing from Enron, etc or 9/11.
Sorry for interjecting here (I really should mind my own business, but hey, it's my own personal crusade) but the Euro's aren't DUMB enough to invest in American companies AT THIS TIME. Watch for a HUGE pullout too among what they already own. The Germans learned the hard way about Chrysler's accounting, same for other Euros who have stepped on Arthur Andersen and Merrill Lynch accounting and "reports" only to be burned ... "bigtime" on corporate lies. While our Shrub and the entire elephantine adminstration (and Newtie congressfish) burn in their own juices in denial, NOBODY in their right mind would TOUCH anything American at the moment (seen the dollar lately?) until our "regime" stops its ridiculous denial, gets religion and applies "morality" to finance. As daddy once said, "naa gaa daa" ...
Damned shame. At least the CANADIANS have been investing in upstate New York since our own Attorney General Spitzer has already used the stick and the stick to punish "evildoers" who cook the books and the forecasts. Cnadaian companies are buying up paper mills and other defunct upstate manufacturing operations, railroads, etc and so far, they've gotten a SQUARE deal. And so have WE for which we are grateful to have some jobs left.
But as long as Shrub and his cronies keep pitching "the big lie" ain't gonna be SQUAT for investment in the United States until we stop lying and finally take out the trash. Hopefully after November and a "regime change" this might start to happen again. But for now, if it's American, can't be trusted and a global economy depends on TRUTH. "It's the ECONOMY, stupid."
Does anyone know where and what this is? It's some exit area, I believe?
The Times Square Brewery used to be a restaurant/bar that used to be over an exit to the suway (where they brought up one of the 1904 Times Square name tablets). The entire building was torn down last year, except for the subway exit area on the first level. That exit was temporarily closed the last time I was there while they were doing construction on the new building. it may or may not be open again right now.
Thanks. Do you know which line the exit is next to?
It was over the big new exit on the south side of 42nd between 7th and Broadway.
I think it was at the corner of 7th and 41st. Not sure though, forgot exactly. It was an entrance to all the lines that serve the complex. It had a sign very fitting to Times Square that said, "subway" with flashing lights, and all the routes there.
Greetings, all...
I'm pleased to announced that I've got quite a few new photos uploaded to the "Photo Galleries" section of my website, The Nth Ward.
Here's what's been added:
Arizona (one section): Taliesin West, Arcosanti, and Sedona. Some of the most beautiful country I've ever seen.
London (two sections): Various street scenes around town, some architectural photos, Burnham-on-Crouch, and a brief tour of a few magnificent railway stations.
Milwaukee (two sections): Architectural photos of Milwaukee's beautiful new addition to their art museum, designed by Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava. This building is so modern, Jersey Mike is guaranteed to hate it. For those who like elevators, there's a few shots of a very cool circular glass elevator in the museum.
Each section contains approximately 25 photos.
Also, I've just gotten about 80 photos from New York City scanned. These include various street scenes in Manhattan, arial shots from on top of the Empire State Building and World Trade Center, skyline shots from the Staten Island Ferry, photos of the Brooklyn Bridge, Central Park, and a few shots of the World Trade Center itself. Look for most of them to be uploaded soon... Watch this space for an announcement when they're online.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A Diamond of a man came to visit tonight, and I just wanted to say thanks for the company.... Fortunately, he didn't leave any foam on the booth window. LMAO!
-Stef
Might have been an imposter then ... did this "diamond" compare your digs to the Franklin shuttle? If not, that was actually his evil twin brother "Skippy." :)
LOL!
Oh yea, I think I'm going to start working at Franklin Av....
His two favorite topics that will keep the all that foamy stuff wet --SBK and the FS.
-Stef
Yep! Now I've seen everything. LMAO!
-Stef
No, this Diamond is a "gem" -- not a "Diamond in the rough" nor a Diamond setting up trolley tracks on the waterfront...
Oh bloah me. Heh. We've SEEN your sidewalk act. :)
you sure it ain't Zirconium or whatever that ersatz stuff is.
Yeah, cuz I had to get my beauty rest for today's railfan tour of the JFK AirTrain facilities! Talk about a SPECIAL day! (yes, I'll take plenty of pictures...)
Hey, Stef whatta ya doin' up so early in the morn? Just gettin' in after a long evening of counting the loose change?
BTW, I didn't even come up to your window this time and bustin' on ya by asking for change of a fifty ;-D
Geez, I didn't know I qualified as 'Crazed'? Deranged, yeah maybe...but not crazed...that's Rega territory...
Guy couldn't count his bawls and come up with the same number twice. Betcha his asp just "proofed out" ... :)
#$@$!
I know how to count. If I have 2, it just means the left one and the right one have to be accounted for.
-Stef
Heh. Just be grateful you don't have Arthur Andersen in the booth with ya. You'd never prove. :)
Lol!
My deranged friend, I'm just hanging with the homies here on Subtalk. I was home since 11:40 last night. Counting loose change does have a bad effect on my brain.
-Stef
Check out http://www.soundtransit.org/linkrail/tacoma/facts/lnktactrains.htm
for pictures of the new Tacoma light rail vehicles.
While driving near the LI Bus place near mitchell field and that whole area, I saw that the area of track on LI Bus property had what looked like two push pull coaches and a caboose(not kidding). I couldent see it to get numbers or anything, anyone have any input?
Could be for NY & Atlantic for future conversion into another set of observation cars, since the Garden City Secondary is operated by NY&A. Similar can be seen at Fresh Pond, in this case the car is painted NY&A green, as is the caboose, and sometimes they are left in Fresh Pond yard linked to one another. Did they look in good shape, like they been moved or used recently, or did they show signs of weathering, like they sat there unused and unmoved for quite sometime?
No. They belong to the #35 Steam loco group, which will be moved to Oyster Bay at a later date.
Acknowledging Joe V's comment, I thought however NY&A had no rights to Garden City Secondary?
They don't. If NY&A needs to use it, LIRR crews must be present to operate there.
Neil,
How would it work? Is it just like the LIRR personel just basically watch the NY&A crews, or do they actually operate NY&A equipement?
The hosting railroad usually provides a Pilot Engineer, who is certified for operation of the `power on the point` locomotive and he/she drives or instructs the visiting roads engineer over hosting railroads` trackage. I would expect, it is the same for N.Y.&A and the LIRR.
Yes it is! The only part of LIRR that NY&A can't really operate on it the GCST itself. And LIRR crews would have to use a pilot engineer for NY&A to go there. There is no trackage that NY&A owns. They just have trackage rights, just as also the equipment is on lease from LIRR. All equipment that is green is all owned by LIRR, even though the equipment is painted green in NY&A colors.
Whoops, I meant in the first sentence by saying the GCST is the word is, and not it. My fingers just slipped.
Why wouldn't they ? Isn't there freight on the line 2 or 3 times a week ?
I think if I recall Pataki killed all freight on that line, as the only thing I've seen on that line is freight cars(dont know what specially) carrying concrete railroad ties(I think) just sitting two blocks away from the ex-clinton road station.
The 2 runs in two sections next weekend - 241 St to TSQ and 148th St to Flatbush Avenue. I'm not sure why it's arranged this way. The 3 is unaffected next weekend.
The 5 is not running between 149th and 180th Sts, construction in the Bronx seems likely. I wonder if it's time to for one of those double ended moves with the train reversing in direction to get on the right track?
In times past, 2s would alternate between Lenox and 241 St, coming from Flatbush Av when there was work in the Bronx.
Should be interesting.
-Stef
The 2 runs in two sections next weekend - 241 St to TSQ and 148th St to Flatbush Avenue.
I would love to see how they get a 2 from White Plains to the Manhattan terminal of the Flushing Line, while in service. :-)
I'm sure it's just a typo and you really meant TSM - Times Square Mainline, as opposed to TSQ, which is Times Square Queens.
My mistake, I meant to abbreviate Times Square.
-Stef
Thats going to be crazy. I will be out of 148 St lenox.
No.3 trains will be running Local next weekend from Times Sq to 96 Street. I think the No.2 service from E 241 will run Exp to Times Sq.
Why will the 3 be running at all if 2's will be serving the 3's terminus? South of 42nd on weekends, the 1 and 2 suffice for the loads -- the trains only get crowded from 42nd on up.
What will the equipment look like? R-62A's at Flatbush (signed as 2)? R-142's (and maybe even a Redbird or two) at Lenox Term? Both?
Someone had better take pictures. Normally I'd volunteer, but I'm already booked that weekend.
It sounds like the two different sections of the #2 Line will overlap between Times Square and 135th Street, which seems to make the G.O. unnecessary!
- Lyle Goldman
That's what I say. The construction is most likely in the Bronx, so why do this? Times past, it was alternate 2s to 148th St and others to 241 St during a GO. Why they're doing it this way is beyond me.
-Stef
I observed an Out of Service R-142 heading north this evening. It seems someone tried to smash out the windows in the front car of the train. This is the first time I've seen this kind of vandalism to the cars.
On a related note, it looked like someone's yellow shoe paddle went for a ride on the roof of Car 6414. I hope I was just imagining that. Alright, who left it?!?
-Stef
Sorry to hear the trashings have begun - as to the paddle up top, perhaps it was a water condition at Atlantic? :)
Perhaps.....
-Stef
Heh, don't mind me, just in one of those bizarre moods tonight compiling code and hitting here while the compiler chugs. One of those kinda nights where I wish I was on midnight shift at the TA. :)
Chances are it was left by a vendor prying out a defective condensor fan. Shoe paddles, like a screwdriver mated with a hammer, are universal tools in TA. CI Peter
It was probably just a disgruntled passenger venting his frustration over his beloved redbirds being gone :o)
Yeah, I believe it.
-Stef
Salaam?
Does anyone know if there had been any kind of bad derailments on the Bay Ridge Line parallel to the L line ROW? (I already knew of one that happened a few months ago by MacDonald Ave., off the F line....several hoppers had jumped the track....the shored up track is easily visible west of the F line at Mac Donald Ave. behind the warehouse) When working the L, I look over the right of way, trying to get lucky to see a train (hopefully someday I'll see RS-301, or some other freight train there sometime), and along the ROW I see like at least 3 derailed freight cars. I know that the ROW in parts is in not too good of shape, but did any other derailment happen along the ROW?
Well...I do know that the LIRR caboose that was sitting on the siding by Sutter Avenue is now derailed. It seems that NY&A wanted more space on that track so they shoved the caboose off the end of the track. The derailed gondola by Atlantic ave. was the result of some kids releasing the handbrakes on some stored cars a year or two ago. The boxcar by Livonia has been there for years.
-Mark
Mark, you da man! Right on all counts. BTW, the gondola's position prior to derailing was on the OTHERSIDE of the tunnel. The kids released the brakes over where it was being stored near Wilson Ave. and it rolled ALL THE WAY through the tunnel, only derailing past the high-level platform and smacking into the supports of Liberty Ave. overpass.
How's about we flatbed that puppy (and the rest and whatever's sitting on sidings unhappy) and bring it on up here? You've gotta see da digs yet one of these days. Ain't quite SUNNYSIDE, but ain't too shabby. Village board's attitude is "if nobody can SEE your rail yard and YOU'RE willing to live in the middle of it, we don't give a spit."
All I ask is something I can run on 600 volts. I GOTS that. And none of that wimpy BMT 520, thank you. :)
Lemme put it to you this way ... we got more layup space than that piddly little yard in Canarsie. Including the shop. :)
Kev, I'll take you up on the offer if you supply the Big Rigs to haul those puppies up to ya...;-D
Damn. Can't find my CB radio. Whoop, never had one. You mean to tell me with all your connections, you ain't got a flatbed parked out there? Sheesh. Tell ya what. Here's da caper. You get those babies hitched, gimme a call, we'll "borrow" N3 and I'll have my CP buddies throw some levers for us. That'll get 'em here. Just gotta dodge a few Meatball Norths and a few cops. :)
Too bad I got ride of my '69 Chrysler w/440 engine! That baby'd haul a four car set of SMEE's all by her lonesome...LOL!
I'd pay to see that...
-Stef
Heh. Wish I'd kept my old GMC Silverado plow truck. That coulda pulled a 10 car consist of arnines. But yeah, shame on you for throwing that garage sale in the old batcave. :)
I hear ya....:-( (sob)
Looks like it's wheelbars and we'll have to push those cars down the track the hard way. :)
Then I best buy a caseload of "Stacker 2" and bulk up! ;-D
Heh. MOON PIES! And Fox's U-Bet ... 'nuff nutrition for me. :)
Took the L all the way to Rockaway Terminal yesterday. After East New York Junction, pretty sweet view of the ROW before it seperates and crosses over Linden Blvd. Would love to see the day they put a subway line on it
Youse has got to be dreamin' for sure. That will happen when Monica Lewinsky gets hired to work for any member of the US Senate and Tanya Harding gets to skate in the Olympics again! It is available, yes, but will it get used? When Mona Lisa grows a mustashe.
I don't know if Brooklyn would really use a cross-town passenger line much, especially between northern Bay Ridge and Canarsie. They should find a way to make better use of it as a freight line, and get some trucks off of our bridges. Unfortunately, I don't imagine that is the most convenient spot to try to build a freight tunnel to.
Uh, guess what? The MTA seriously planned to 'redo' the Canarsie Line in the early 70's with a bold proposal that would've utilized the Bay Ridge Branch, making obsolete the ENTIRE Canarsie Line's elevated structure.
The idea was to connect the L line with the Bay Ridge Branch at Wilson Ave. New stations would be built for Bushwick-Arberdeen, Bway Junction, Atlantic Ave., Sutter, Livonia and New Lots. The stations of E. 105th and Rockaway Parkway would cease to exist because the new 'Canarsie' stop would be Rockaway Ave. and Linden (current location of Linden Shops). The MTA's plan to 'accomodate' Canarsie residents was thru an extension of the B42 up to Linden Blvd. The Canarsie name would stay even though in actuality the Bay Ridge only skirts the Canarsie neighborhood at Linden...in the end community opposition along with financial concerns were what killed the project.
One final note on this: a great plus to consumers had this proposal been approved was a reconfigured Livonia station with a shared walkway fare-control with the New Lots Line (Junius St). This would have been the end to the problem of transfering between the L and the 2/3 Lines.
I knever understaood why they never made an in system transfer between Junius and Livonia. I think they may have added at least a Metrocard transfer there, but don't know for sure. If they didn't, they really should.
No, a Metrocard connection was not provided..bummer...
The problem is that the footbridge needs to stay outside fare control or else local residents will be cut off. It's too narrow to be divided down the middle.
A MetroCard transfer could be implemented but right now there isn't one.
One problem on the Canarsie-bound L platform is that the staircase takes up essentially the entire width of the platform. The last time I came up that staircase I found myself looking right at the C/R on an R-143 -- in other words, the staircase is at the middle of the platform. It's not a safe arrangement at all, and I can't imagine the TA wants to encourage more people to use that station.
Yes you can get a free transfer to the Number 1 Train at Livonia Avenue using your metro card if you hop onto the B42 Bus which takes you inside of the fare control at Canarsie Station.
If you're starting your trip in Canarsie, that is, and you don't need a transfer to the bus at the other end. Otherwise you're out of luck.
There is room around the staircase. In fact the station itself "bumps out" because of the staircase. This is for both platforms at Livonia. The problem is getting off the train facing the staircase..........
Which side of the staircase? I remember coming up the staircase and being faced with apparently no way to get what passes as the railfan window on an R-143 train, or even into the front section of the train (so I could proceed through the cars to the front).
I never understaood why they never made an in system transfer between Junius and Livonia. I think they may have added at least a Metrocard transfer there, but don't know for sure. If they didn't, they really should.
I never understaood why they never made an in system transfer between Junius and Livonia. I think they may have added at least a Metrocard transfer there, but don't know for sure. If they didn't, they really should.
Little brats!! Just got nothing better to do with their time!!
How I hated that area when I worked "Canarsie" years back. Then again we hada roll-away here couple months back, a cut of cars rolled out of the yard here in Lvingston MT. They caught 5 perpetrators between 17 and 20 years old. The jackasses.[handbrakes untied]
Kids sure do learn a lot, huh!! Knew how to release hand brakes on a freight car.....man what is the NYC school system teaching our kids?? lol
I get these little lovenotes every now and then from Modeller JOE FRANK down in Cheesesteakland ... This one was a CORKER ... check it out, then read the rest ... Damned hard to spot trip arms from 6 cars back, I'd say ...
>See NY Times Article on subway line power failure snafu (LINK below)
>
>Regards - Joe
>webmaster
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/20/nyregion/20POWE.html?tntemail1
From the morons who covered this ...
"But about 30 minutes later, another cable caught fire, again knocking out power at the station and to the track signals that direct train conductors."
Man, operating a train and divining those magic signals from the middle of an overcrowded train unable to see out the cab window in the front, musta been a BEAR for that poor conductor. :)
All aboard, step lively, watch the closing doors or I'm gonna ram this puppy into a wall. Sheesh.
----------------------------------------------------
NSClean Privacy Software division
Privacy Software Corporation
http://www.nsclean.com
kevinmca@nsclean.com
It sure must be tough for those conductors to decide how fast to move the train...all the signals they see are red.
The only way I can even try to give the writer the benefit of the doubt, is to say maybe he/she is thinking of some OPTO line where the T/O IS the conductor. Obviously not the A/C/E, though.
To be the only one posting on Subtalk on Saturday morning at 8.30am.
Silver line opens in Boston today, which is why I am up early. I am going to the press conference that starts at 10.30 in Dudley Sq.
MBTA buses are free to ride all day long. There are celebrations and surprises all the way down Washington St. until 2pm.
AEM7
MBTA buses are free to ride all day long.
MBTA SILVER LINE buses, and a subset of other buses around downtown, are free to ride all day long.
I just got bitten with a $1 fare from Central Square to Memorial Drive in Cambridge. I got a transfer though, so I can ride free later.
AEM7
AEM7 Im not aware of fare on the T busses being 1$ unless it is a zoned fare but the distance you rode it should have been only 75 cents not a dollar.
I pay my bus fares only with $ bills, because I need the quarters for the laundrette. I also usually pay the *driver* and not the farebox. Some drivers put the $ in the farebox, others put it aside on their driving deck, which may then later make its way into the farebox (or it may not)...
AEM7
I know the T ordered fare boxes with provsions for dollar bills. But please help out the operator and place them in the slot yourself. A union rule states under no circumstances shall in any way shape or form an operator handle revenue. If an ocassion arises call a supervisor. But truthfully 99% of the dollar bills if they are not put in a protective envelope provided sometimes by an operator will be shreded up by the vault machine. Stevie
But truthfully 99% of the dollar bills if they are not put in a protective envelope provided sometimes by an operator will be shreded up by the vault machine.
I have heard this before, I have never been able to verify it (despite asking a mgr I know at the T, although he may not have been informed about such matters).
I have a few questions:
(1) WHAT protective envelope?
(2) If the T are really losing revenue through dollar bills being stuck in places where they shouldn't be (I'm not sure 100% what you mean about envelope, etc), WHY do they have a farebox that accepts dollar bills?
To be truthful, the 25 cents I save by not using a dollar bill is not worth the time I have to go walk to the bank to get change. It is true that dollar bills use up valuable capacity, but that's something the T has to address. $ bills are legal tender and are legally required to be accepted for payment of debts, public or private.
AEM7
$ bills are legal tender and are legally required to be accepted for payment of debts, public or private.
The MBTA takes payment on boarding, correct? Then it's not a debt, and bills can be turned down.
Bills aren't accepted on any NYC bus (except, I think, on the private express buses). Big deal. Why would I want to pay cash (in any form) when I get a 9% discount and a free transfer to the subway if I pay by MetroCard?
Yes Dave that is correct the T accepts dollar bills. But the passenger has to put the dollar in the slot, the operator cannot handle the money in any way shape or form.
Sorry for the confusion
Bills aren't accepted on any NYC bus (except, I think, on the private express buses). Big deal. Why would I want to pay cash (in any form) when I get a 9% discount and a free transfer to the subway if I pay by MetroCard?
MBTA has a big revenue collection problem. Firstly, their fares are not universal so that you always need to fumble with change and cannot simply buy a pack of 10 tokens. For instance, Light Rail is 85 cents, Bus is 75 cents and Subways are $1, but tokens are only sold for the Subway thus using a subway token would mean you shortchange yourself 25 cents each boarding.
There are no Metrocards except monthly passes.
Secondly, if you are stuck out in some part of the city with no change (a very likely scenario, since I often walk out and wind up somewhere I don't expect and then need a way of getting home). The stores in the suburbia tend to be closed when I go for my long walks (e.g. 7pm-9pm weeknights or Sunday mornings). If they didn't accept dollar bills, then my only option would be to walk home or walk to a subway/commuter rail stop which could be a long ways away, especially in the winter.
I hear that there are new Smartcard systems in the works for MBTA. If there are, I hope they work it out so that it serves the need of the occasional bus rider. I would pay for a stored-value card or a bunch of 75 cents tokens if they had one available. For example, I have a CTA stored-value card and I hardly ever visit Chicago, but when I do, I simply pull it out and swipe through.
AEM7
>>> For instance, Light Rail is 85 cents, Bus is 75 cents and Subways are $1, but tokens are only sold for the Subway thus using a subway token would mean you shortchange yourself 25 cents each boarding
...
If they didn't accept dollar bills, then my only option would be to walk home or walk to a subway/commuter rail stop which could be a long ways away, especially in the winter. <<<
Aren't you suffering the same loss by putting a dollar in a fare box for a 75¢ fare as using a token? It sounds like you have more of a problem with an "exact fare, no change" policy than the acceptance of dollar bills.
Tom
Aren't you suffering the same loss by putting a dollar in a fare box for a 75¢ fare as using a token? It sounds like you have more of a problem with an "exact fare, no change" policy than the acceptance of dollar bills.
The point is this. By paying for a token, I have taken the trouble to go to a token machine, feed it bills that it may or may not accept, and then obtained the token. I have invested in labor to help the MBTA to increase their bus boarding thoroughput. I expect to receive a discount (or at least to only pay the exact fare) for my trouble.
If I pay with a $ bill, I have not taken this trouble and I am happy to pay 25 cent extra "dollar bill processing charge".
AEM7
It sounds like you have more of a problem with an "exact fare, no change" policy
IMHO the best form of fare collection I've seen on a bus is where you board at the rear - with no sodding doors in your way - , the conductor rings the bell twice, the driver pulls away, the conductor then goes around checking travelcards and collecting cash fares (giving change in the process). If there is no traffic in front of the bus (fat chance!), this can be bloody damn quick! Plus the buses feel a LOT safer with two man operation.
The second best system I've seen is having news-stands and convenience stores sell tickets which you validate on boarding the bus.
>>> IMHO the best form of fare collection I've seen on a bus is where you board at the rear - with no sodding doors in your way - , the conductor rings the bell twice, the driver pulls away, the conductor then goes around checking travelcards and collecting cash fares (giving change in the process). <<<
Right!, and the best rapid transit operation was to have gate men on the platforms between cars to open and close the gates for passengers and relay signals from the rear of the train to the front to tell the motorman when to start. Unfortunately such labor intensive service has been absent in the United States for quite some time now.
Tom
Unfortunately such labor intensive service has been absent in the United States for quite some time now.
Come and ride some nice antiquated London buses - I hate the way a lot of them are front entry now, but the old ones with conductors are still around (just) :-D
MBTA has a big revenue collection problem. Firstly, their fares are not universal so that you always need to fumble with change and cannot simply buy a pack of 10 tokens. For instance, Light Rail is 85 cents, Bus is 75 cents and Subways are $1, but tokens are only sold for the Subway thus using a subway token would mean you shortchange yourself 25 cents each boarding.
Yes, that is a problem. Has the MBTA considered moving to a uniform fare, or to a card-based system that can deduct the actual fare, be it $0.75, $0.85, or $1.00?
Secondly, if you are stuck out in some part of the city with no change (a very likely scenario, since I often walk out and wind up somewhere I don't expect and then need a way of getting home). The stores in the suburbia tend to be closed when I go for my long walks (e.g. 7pm-9pm weeknights or Sunday mornings). If they didn't accept dollar bills, then my only option would be to walk home or walk to a subway/commuter rail stop which could be a long ways away, especially in the winter.
No, you'd get on the bus and ask the passengers if any of them have change for a dollar.
Yes, that is a problem. Has the MBTA considered moving to a uniform fare, or to a card-based system that can deduct the actual fare, be it $0.75, $0.85, or $1.00?
The fares are sacred cows. Firstly, the fares are too low anyways (should be more like $2.00 per ride and $1.50 buses). Secondly the T need to sort out bus/subway fare transfers. Thirdly they need a way of collecting fares faster on LRV's. Fourthly they need zoned fares. Fifthly they need to address a few of the bus lines that are oversubcribed...
The T isn't short of problems. That said, even so, they still provide a pretty good service for what I use it for.
AEM7
(should be more like $2.00 per ride and $1.50 buses)
I thought buses cost more per passenger mile.
Buses cost more per pax-mile given constant volume of passengers (i.e. constant load factors). If there is less demand, then the rail transit will attain a lower load factor hence higher cost per pax-mile.
In any case, trains have better revenue-raising power (at least in BOS) thus the T is able to jack up their prices a little more.
AEM7
Subways are almost always much more attractive than buses. I could take the Q-60 to go to White Castle for only $1 each way, but I choose to take the subway for $1.50 each way. I could even take the bus one way and the train the other and only pay $1.50 total, yet I still choose the train both ways...
And it's not because of being a railfan, I've long ago stopped thinking of the Queens Blvd line as a place to railfan. It's more of an annoying obstacle I must overcome to get to the trains I actually want to ride.
"I thought buses cost more per passenger mile."
But the average trip of each bus rider is far shorter than the average trip of each subway rider. So in many cases it may cost less money to provide a bus ride.
But the average trip of each bus rider is far shorter than the average trip of each subway rider.
I don't see how that changes it. If something's less than ten short blocks, walkings the best option, and longer than ten short blocks subways begin to work. Okay, for distances of about 8 - 25 short blocks, trolleys might be a good alternative, but the only use I can see for buses after infrastructure is in place is to serve rural and semi-rural areas.
, and longer than ten short blocks subways begin to work.
Not if you want to go from midblock (half way between subway stops) to midblock. For that reason, the No.1 bus runs parallel to the Red Line subway between Harvard and Central, and the No.77 between Harvard and Porter. Other examples of such route duplication exists on MBTA.
Buses for local service, subway for cross-city.
AEM7
The protective envelope is identical to your ATM envelope you get with he card. I have a few at my house if you want one E mail me. The MBTA got the cheap GFI/Genfare fare boxes that take the dollars on the side. Also the MBTA wants to be able to control the fare collection so the people who vault the cars have no hands on the revenue.GFI/Genfare makes a fare box that takes dollar bills and gets removed by someone by hand. Paul Revere uses them on the Winthrop Buses. Hope this helps Stevie
Also the MBTA wants to be able to control the fare collection so the people who vault the cars have no hands on the revenue.
I think that's pretty stupid. I know there is a problem with some T operators stealing revenue (either at the token booths, on the Commuter rail, or on the buses). Personally I don't have a problem with it. Until they sort out their revenue collection system, I'm perfectly happy for the driver to pocket my $ (if he chooses to do so) and wave me onto the bus. MBTA cannot control revenue collection until it invests in an effective smartcard/swipecard/token system.
I rode Greater Taipei buses in the old days. We used to buy a "family ticket" -- the bus fares were NT$14 (about $0.50) per ride, so often my family of four would board and we would owe NT$56. More frequently than not, if you gave a NT$50 bill to the operator (who then proceeds to pocket it instead of sticking it in the farebox), he'll wave you onto the bus. Like I said, I have always believed if the transit authority isn't competent enough to ensure there is a reasonable way to pay revenue, then it is only expected that revenue diversion to operators would occur.
AEM7
Yore right but this ti the T were talking about. Money Being Thrown Away or More Bulls__t Than Action.
>>> I'm perfectly happy for the driver to pocket my $ (if he chooses to do so) and wave me onto the bus. MBTA cannot control revenue collection until it invests in an effective smartcard/swipecard/token system. <<<
Employees with access to money can be monitored without a full fledged smart card system. Even a smart card system can be defeated if an operator collects cash to allow passengers to ride without swiping. The first and most important thing to stop embezzlement is prohibiting the operator from handling any money by requiring the passengers to deposit all fares into the fare box. Second, monitoring fare box receipts to see if any particular operator has consistently lower receipts than other operators at that time and place, and third, observe the operator with beakies to see if there is any fiddling with the fares.
Tom
The first and most important thing to stop embezzlement is prohibiting the operator from handling any money by requiring the passengers to deposit all fares into the fare box.
This only works if the customer believes that embezzlement is a bad thing. In the token booths, you can not work the same system since the fare-agent need to hand you a token. If you had a token machine, then someone has to empty the token machine. You can have an electronic log on the token machine, but someone has to refill it with fresh tokens. At some stage you have to trust your employees, and they have to trust you.
Second, monitoring fare box receipts to see if any particular operator has consistently lower receipts than other operators at that time and place,
This would not work on the MBTA system. MBTA buses run on highly variable headways, and the distribution is not random since the dispatching is done on a first in first out basis. This means if bunching occurs, the first bus will consistently collect more revenue than subsequent buses. There is simply insufficient statistics to do the kind of analysis you suggest (the results will be not statistically significant).
and third, observe the operator with beakies to see if there is any fiddling with the fares.
This will work, assuming the beakies don't cheat. But at some point it becomes cheaper to allow the rouge operators from stealing the fares, and/or becomes cheaper to invest in a smartcard system where stealing fares are more difficult.
AEM7
>>> A union rule states under no circumstances shall in any way shape or form an operator handle revenue. If an ocassion arises call a supervisor. But truthfully 99% of the dollar bills if they are not put in a protective envelope provided sometimes by an operator will be shreded up by the vault machine <<<
Fare boxes in California have accepted dollar bills since the fare went to $1.00+. The passengers are the ones who feed the bills into the fare box. The slot is horizontal facing the passenger so it would be awkward for the driver to insert the bill. (The coin slot is vertical on top, and gives the driver a digital readout of the total coins deposited.) Once the bill is accepted it goes to a place behind an illuminated magnifying lens on the driver's side of the fare box. The driver then sends it onward to the collection box by pushing a button. This rather low tech way of checking the bills for authenticity prevents the many rejects that occur with vending machines. I have never seen or heard of protective envelopes. I cannot imagine why any fare box designed to accept dollar bills would shred them.
Tom
I have never seen or heard of protective envelopes. I cannot imagine why any fare box designed to accept dollar bills would shred them.
In Massachusetts, the bill goes into a slot on the side of the fare collection box (the coin mechanisms are the same). The slot leads directly to the coinbox I believe. The alleged shredding occurs when the coinbox is opened and emptied, and the machien that counts the coins doesn't recognize the bills and may destroy them.
I do not believe this story. I think that if they want people to believe this story, they ought to print this story in their schedules. But since the MBTA is probably too embarrassed to admit to this technical glitch if it were true, I see no reason not to continue to paying by $ bills if I happen to have no change, which happens the majority of times I ride the buses. I don't carry change.
AEM7
Ill be more than happy to take you on a tour and show you. Let me know
Stevie has offered to show us the coin collection process at the T. If there are anything else that you may be able to show us, we'll be interested to hear. Let's get a group together and maybe arrange to tour one of the T's bus facilities. If this were arranged, I know there will be people in my department that will be interested. So, would anyone who would be interested in coming please follow this thread, and maybe Stevie and I can set something up if there is sufficient interest.
I would be interested to see:
(1) The fare collection process
(2) The bus depot down in Roxbury
(3) The new CNG bus servicing facility for the Silver Line
AEM7
They have no provissions for CNG refill yet they go to out side sources. They were being kept in Charlestown. Are you reffering to the Bartlett St yard? I will show you the vaulting machine at Riverside.
OK, then it would be a Riverside tour. There's a huge number of Breda LRVs there. It'll be worth a look.
AEM7
Unfourtnately Breda is not alowing T personel on their equipment until they get the bugs out.
Tom the dollar bill slot is located on the bottom side of the fare box and the operator has to manualy record the fare.
>>> Tom the dollar bill slot is located on the bottom side of the fare box and the operator has to manualy record the fare. <<<
That sounds pretty primitive, but out here, buses are getting computers which look like miniature McDonald's cash registers on which the driver punches in the type of fare for each person boarding the bus, distinguishing between full cash fare, youth cash fare, free child, various monthly passes, transfers, etc. It provides the Operator with a full profile of whom its passengers are.
Tom
Before they started accepting Metrocards the private lines in Queens used to take $ bills in their fareboxes. How were they able to do that? and why can't the new fareboxes accept $ bills as well as metrocards? Its funny how the technology is there that we can buy soda from a vending maching using 1$ bills yet we can't pay our fare the same way.
The farebox would be too bulky if it could take both farecards AND bills. In Albany, I noticed that they take cards, bills, and coins with the same sized farebox as NY has, but the card must be swiped rather than dipped and the transfers are still paper.
One of the two Bronx bus companies (NYBS?) takes Metrocard, change, and bills. The bills go into an attachment to the standard farebox.
"One of the two Bronx bus companies (NYBS?) takes Metrocard, change, and bills. The bills go into an attachment to the standard farebox."
In Chicago, that's how the CTA and Pace (suburban buses) deal with Transit Cards on buses, and Transit Cards are essentially identical to Metrocards.
Where is our resident fare box authority, with his witticism when
needed?
;-) Sparky
As I understand it, NYCTA fare boxes do not accept dollar bills because they are emptied with vacuum hoses that suck the coins out. This is a very fast process, but the MTA believes the dollar bills would be shredded this way.
>>> As I understand it, NYCTA fare boxes do not accept dollar bills because they are emptied with vacuum hoses that suck the coins out. This is a very fast process, but the MTA believes the dollar bills would be shredded this way. <<<
A fine example of industrial age thinking, where to make the process easier, the consumer is inconvenienced. And with a monopoly there is no need to cater to the consumer.
Tom
It costs many times as much (I was once told 32 times as much by NYCT's Revenue people) to process bills as coins. At NYCT's volume, it's just not worth it. The Keene (vacuum) system is old (though components get replaced from time to time) but reliable. Besides, nowadays, most people are registering their fares by MetroCard anyway, and those who insist on paying with dollars are free to use dollar coins.
David
Dollar bills should have been phased out of circulation 20 years ago. Now there's something I agree with the Europeans on. Even Canada has cottoned onto the $1 coin.
AEM7
Agreed. I like Canada's $2 coin as well... wish we would follow their example. But I find a lot of resistance to the $1 coin... the ladies in the company cafeteria complain about them, the vending machines aren't set up to accept them (and the dollar bill slots don't work half the time either), even the grocery store clerks look at me like I was from outer space (NO comments from the peanut gallery!) when I use them. Most toll takers on my "commute" route between New Jersey and North Carolina like them, though, since they are readily recognizable and my having the exact toll in coins means they don't have to make change. The toll collector I usually encounter on the Tappan Zee (when I'm headed to Branford) scowls at me, though... don't know if he's like that with everyone or if it's just because I'm using the coins.
Digressing a bit, though... you have to be familiar with the Canadian $2 coin to get this... what a lot of Canadians really like about that coin is that it's the only chance any of them will ever get to see the Queen with a "bear" behind :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
what a lot of Canadians really like about that coin is that it's the only chance any of them will ever get to see the Queen with a "bear" behind :-)
Did I ever mention that the Canadian $2 coin is of shoddy construction? If you take a hammer to it, the middle part will fall out. So much for a bear market. That's what they get for insulting the Queen in public.
heh
AEM7
If you take a hammer to it, the middle part will fall out.
So who takes a hammer to it? OK, a few of us have been known to put coins on the tracks, but I doubt any of us would put a $2 coin there... pennies or the occasional nickel, maybe...
Besides, I doubt that the Queen (or any member of royalty) will appear on Canada's coins much longer. As I understand it, once the current redesign of Canadian currency is complete, the coins will be next, and there is strong sentiment for depicting important Canadian figures on the coins in lieu of the Queen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it has nothing to do with the Queen.
Soon enough, the coins will have to depict King Charles III, and I don't think they want to risk the inevitable devaluation of their coins that would be caused by such.
Soon enough, the coins will have to depict King Charles III, and I don't think they want to risk the inevitable devaluation of their coins that would be caused by such.
Not very likely. Seeing as the Queen Mother only died this year, the idea that longetivity runs in families suggests there's another 20 to 30 years left in Elizabeth II.
I also don't get what people have against Prince Charles - he seems to be one of the few decent members of British royalty.
For once I agree with AEM7! The UK pound note was phased out about 20 years ago, allegedly due in part to pressure from London Transport who did not want to get involved with unreliable vending machines taking banknotes. So for over twenty years now, our smallest-value note has been the five pounds (worth about $7.50 today) -- and even they are getting a bit tattered nowadays. If the UK doesn't go into the Euro, I would expect a five-pounds coin within a few years. No-one minds pound coins any more, and now we have a two-pounds coin that is (slowly) gaining acceptance. Interestingly, you mostly get two-pounds in your change in *small* stores; supermarket checkout people don't seem to like them. There also seems to be an emerging consensus that the highest-value coin should be two-coloured (silver centre, gold rim) -- the two-pounds and the Canadian $2 are both like this, and the French 10 franc was -- I *think* (but I'm not sure, having not seen one yet) that the 2 Euro coin is too.
So for over twenty years now, our smallest-value note has been the five pounds
Except in Scotland. I don't know about Ulster. Wales have their own £1 coins (you can tell these by the way they say "Pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad" around the side rather than "Decus et tutamen" or (rather bizarrely as they still have notes) the Scots royal motto: "Nemo me impune lacessit"). So in Scotland the smallest note is worth about $1.50, is nice and green and feels just like a dollar :-D You should've seen the look on the barista's face when I used one in a coffee bar in Birmingham!
The UK pound note was phased out about 20 years ago, allegedly due in part to pressure from London Transport who did not want to get involved with unreliable vending machines taking banknotes.
Edinburgh's fun though. The continued existence in Scotland of the £1 note has forced all of the bus companies but one to give change and the other one has big notices by their machines saying to show the banknote to the driver then fold it up and put it in the machines.
If the UK doesn't go into the Euro, I would expect a five-pounds coin within a few years.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! It's bad enough Stephenson's not on the new one, but abolishing them... I smell a conspiracy to abolish all banknotes - 10s went 30 years ago, £1 went 20 years ago (except in Scotland), £2 is a rather odd-looking coin, £50 no-one accepts because the cost to them if it were forged are too high, no-one's ever seen a £100 note though I believe they still make them in Scotland. If £5 went, we'd be left with only two notes - £10 and £20. Okay, most cash machines don't give out fivers any more, but if you know where they are, it can be very useful when you want to draw £15 or £25.
Interestingly, you mostly get two-pounds in your change in *small* stores; supermarket checkout people don't seem to like them.
And drinks machines quite often don't take them.
There also seems to be an emerging consensus that the highest-value coin should be two-coloured
Great until the middle falls out. The French 10FF coin was actually quite nice and the French and Belgian issues of the €2 coins really are too similar - while I was in Lille, a waiter nearly gave me a 10FF rather than a €2 in change. I actually really don't like the English £2 - it weighs too much - it'd've been much better if they'd made it only slightly bigger than the £1, not twice the size. (At least they didn't go to the other extreme as they did with the 5p and 10p coins (okay yes a bit of it is me preferring the way most of the old 5p coins weren't 5p coins at all - they read "One Shilling" - likewise the 10p often read "Two Shillings").)
So for over twenty years now, our smallest-value note has been the five pounds
"Except in Scotland".
I haven't seen a pound note on recent visits to Scotland -- I thought they'd all gone by now. Certainly there are lots of pound coins around in Scotland. But maybe the locals just don't give the pound notes in change to people with English accents! I'll be in Edinburgh this weekend -- I'll see if I can find one.
"I don't know about Ulster"
I haven't been there for a while, but I don't recall seeing pound notes when I was last there 7-8 years ago. The Irish Republic had pound (punt) notes until a few years ago, but now of course the punt is no more, since Ireland is in Euroland.
There may still be pound notes in the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. The Isle of Man had 50 pence notes when the currency was first decimalised.
"Wales have their own £1 coins (you can tell these by the way they say "Pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad" around the side rather than "Decus et tutamen" or (rather bizarrely as they still have notes) the Scots royal motto: "Nemo me impune lacessit")"
That's a different matter -- they aren't really Welsh and Scottish coins, they are just different designs that the Mint puts on to the standard product. (Come to think of it, the Mint is in Wales!) Look at the dates -- some years they only issue English ones, some years only Scottish, some years only Welsh. But they all circulate throughout the UK regardless.
So in Scotland the smallest note is worth about $1.50, is nice and green and feels just like a dollar :-D You should've seen the look on the barista's face when I used one in a coffee bar in Birmingham!
I used to have a habit of going to the bank just before I headed for England. This way, I annoy a lot of English people with Scottish bills. Some Taxi driver refused to take them, claiming that it was fake, so I told him to either take it or stuff it (we were at a rural destination and I had no other cash on me). He took it.
AEM7
I used to have a habit of going to the bank just before I headed for England.
No prizes for guessing what I did the last time I was in Glasgow, just before heading to Central Station (back on topic sort of).
Whilst this started out as a BRT thread (which is justifiably Subtalk because MBTA considers it a "subway"), it has now gotten onto fare boxes on light rail and buses which is kind of a both subtalk/bustalk subject. I never go to the bustalk board so I don't know what's going on over there. Wouldn't it be good to have a feature on the board that says "follow up to Bustalk" or "follow up to Subtalk" which gives one-click access to either boards?
In this day and age of BRT's, we clearly need to eradicate the difference between subway and buses. That is what the MBTA had been trying to do. Unless we want to start a BRTtalk.
AEM7
Unless we want to start a BRTtalk.
A special section to discuss the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Co - yaaaaaaay!!!! ;-)
I Concur ... right topic for the 20th Century ... but this is the
21th Century. :-(
~Sparky
I gotta do the BRT thing sometime. I hear it is really hot in Pittsburgh. Do the buses put the pedal to the metal on long straight-aways?
The MBTA does NOTconsider the SILVER LINE a subway! It's a BUS!
Here's PROFF! The Silver Line schedule on the BUS menu.
>>> It costs many times as much (I was once told 32 times as much by NYCT's Revenue people) to process bills as coins. <<<
I suspect that idea is based on the "we have always done it this way" going back to the time when it was mostly pennies and nickels collected from fare boxes and turnstiles. Banks, casinos, supermarkets, vending machine operators and other handlers of cash have all learned how to handle paper money, including automated sorting, counting and wrapping, and I am sure it is not 32 times as expensive as handling coins. Accepting paper money would obviously cause a change in the way the money is handled, and include capital expenditures to implement new procedures, but the change could be made.
>>> those who insist on paying with dollars are free to use dollar coins. <<<
I agree that promoting the use of dollar coins is a viable alternative. Does the TA promote the use of dollar coins by providing them exclusively instead of paper bills whenever change is given? Do turnstiles and fare boxes accept dollar coins? Unfortunately, I seem to remember reading recently that the Government is giving up on the new $1.00 coins because of lack of acceptance by the public. They have been so scarce here that the only time I have seen one was when I went to a bank and specifically asked for one.
Tom
Buy stamps from a machine in a post office. Then you will get some nice "shiny as the day they were born" Sacajaweas.
>>> Buy stamps from a machine in a post office. Then you will get some nice "shiny as the day they were born" Sacajaweas. <<<
Thanks for the tip, but I buy my stamps in 100 per roll quantities with a check or credit card.
Tom
Ticket Vending Machines, Token Vending Machines etc. in NY and Philly all dispense both new and old (Susan B's) dollar coins as change.
In Philly, you still got those machines that give you dollar coins for cash in any denominations up to $20? I remember one in Suburban Station, I use it sometimes on my visits to keep PATCO's grubby hands off my 15 cents when I need change!
"Unfortunately, I seem to remember reading recently that the Government is giving up on the new $1.00 coins because of lack of acceptance by the public. They have been so scarce here that the only time I have seen one was when I went to a bank and specifically asked for one."
In my experience (of two occasions!) the best way to get a dollar coin is to put a $5 bill into a NYCT MVM and buy a $4 funpass. You get a $1 coin as change!
The US public is bizarrely conservative (with a small c) about its coins and banknotes. They won't use $2 bills except at racetracks (in 34 years of visiting the USA I've still never seen one); they rejected the Kennedy half-dollar; this is the second unsuccessful attempt to introduce a dollar coin. When inflation has taken the dollar down to the value of a 1950 cent, Americans will still be carrying stacks of tattered dollar bills, at this rate of progress!
In my experience (of two occasions!) the best way to get a dollar coin is to put a $5 bill into a NYCT MVM and buy a $4 funpass. You get a $1 coin as change!
If you pay with a $10 bill you get six.
I would either do that, or buy a $15 Pay-per-ride card with a $20. Now I just use my platinum Discover card.
"I would either do that, or buy a $15 Pay-per-ride card with a $20. Now I just use my platinum Discover card. "
Now there's a smart consumer. Why shouldn't MTA help you get a bigger Discover rebate?
Not only that, but since this particular cards has 0 interest until October, I don't pay the bill in full by the due date like I usually do, I only pay the minimum balance ($15). This way all that money gets to stay in my savings account collecting interest at 2.75% annually.
My savings account is just a "reserve" for me. Open up a Roth IRA. Stock prices are really low right now, that way you can buy lots of shares. I bought $300 worth of shares last week at $16.00 a share. The stock market is historically GUARANTEED to make you 11% return over long period of time (like until you retire), no matter the economic crisis. The right mutual fund will get you more. You're young, when you retire, you'll be a millionare. Time is your greatest asset. That won't happen with piddling 2.75% interest.
When inflation has taken the dollar down to the value of a 1950 cent, Americans will still be carrying stacks of tattered dollar bills, at this rate of progress!
I don't really see what's wrong with that. Italy managed fine until last year with the smallest note being L1000 - worth roughly 50 cents. It was kinda nice having a wallet fat with notes which weren't worth much and counting out five to ten notes to pay for lunch...
Damn the Euro!!!
I am against Britain going into the Euro too. It will be decided within a year or two, either way. James can join me in voting "no" in the referendum.
It will be decided within a year or two
I'm not sure Blair has the balls to call a referendum he'll lose.
I would rather see Britain go to the American Dollar. If that is the case, we would need $1 and $2 coins for the Brits, and maybe Americans would start accepting them because they would think it's cute British money that they use over in England, so we must use them.
AEM7
I would rather see Britain go to the American Dollar.
Wouldn't we all?
If that is the case, we would need $1 and $2 coins for the Brits, and maybe Americans would start accepting them because they would think it's cute British money that they use over in England, so we must use them.
I'd rather have banknotes any day. Print 50¢ and 25¢ notes for Britain and then we'd need no coins at all!
51 West Mercia (Capital: Birmingham)
52 East Mercia (Capital: Leicester)
53 Northumbria (Capital: York)
54 Southern England (Capital: London)
55 Scotland (Capital: Edinburgh)
56 Wales (Capital: Cardiff)
57 Ulster (Capital: Belfast)
58 Gibraltar
59 The Falkland Islands... (okay, this is getting silly now)
Actually, I like the $1.00 coins. And since I have to buy change for my till (I sell wine in our wine cellar) I always by rolls of dollar coins. 95+% of the people I give them to as change are pleased and delighted to have them.
As a merchant, they are more convenient to me. My till can only hold about 30 bills in each slot, before the slot is too full. On the ohter hand, I can put $100.00 in coins in one of the coin slots without any trouble.
The business manager empties the till of bills, frequently leaving me with not enough for a weekend or what ever, but he leaves my coins alone. So I always have plenty of change in $1.coins.
I think if merchants would see the light, and see that they are more useful than bills, we would see more of them in circulation. But... we will see more in circulation, just as soon as the STOP" printing those ratty old bils!
Elias
Maybe, if we swapped who's mug was on the Quarter and Dollar Coin, we'd get more acceptance!
The only way the dollar coin will get acceptance is if they stop printing dollar bills.
-Hank
... or if people preferred coins. I bet you if they changed the picture on the $1 bills to Susan B. Anthony, and the picture on the $1 coins to Washington, it's the bills that will get shunned.
AEM7
Doubt it. The argument against the coins has always been the percieved inconveinience of the coins.
-Hank
I don't think it matters what is on the bill. I just HATE coins. When I've used ticket vending machines on the LIRR, and was unfortunate enough to get the SBA dollars back. I can't count how many times I gave it to a store as a quarter by accident. The "gold" dollars are a little better, but I still hate change. ANd of course I get plagued with it since I don't like to walk around with it, I wind up with more because of course if I have no change on me, whatever I'm buying will come to $2.03 or something, and will wind up with $.97 more to the cup holder of my car.
I actually find the opposite. I always have to deliberately keep quarters just so I can use them in the laundry machine. I have started to count all my expenditure to the nearest dollar. If something costs $3.02, it may as well have cost $4 because I'd never see that $0.98 until I decide to do laundry.
AEM7
I just HATE coins.
Give them to charity. It seems the only point in coins (except in the UK where there are coins which are worth too much - it's time for £1 and £2 notes).
Yea, and pass about the five pound notes of Seargent Schultz. So what if it is not rotten sitting in Austrian lakes for five or six decades? They're negotiable, serial numbers traceble to the Bank Of England. Just bogus. Do vending machines in GB accept those big toilet paper bills? CI Peter
Do vending machines in GB accept those big toilet paper bills?
Nope, they don't take £5 notes, nor £2 coins (part of the reason for their unpopularity). I liked the old £5 note with George Stephenson and the Rocket on it. The new one has some nurse or something on it instead.
My computer doesn't even have that 'L' sign Euro dingus. Vending machines in Europe must be a dead end EXCEPT where your GSM phone can transact. Hey, i remember when you could by gum in the subway with just a penny. CI Peter
My computer doesn't even have that 'L' sign Euro dingus.
What do you get when you press shift-3 then? How about turning your Num Lock on, holding down the Alt key and typing on the number pad 0163 - does that work? Oh yeah, that 'L' thing, £, is the Pound sign and has nothing to do with the Euro. You will find the Euro sign on Ctrl-Alt-4.
Actually the Euro sign looks like an L too, except some people think it looks like an E. It's all weird anyway. Shift-F3 is # and Shift-F4 is $. Shift-F2 is @ and the " is Shift-'
AEM7
Actually the Euro sign looks like an L too, except some people think it looks like an E.
When I first saw it I thought it looked like an open bracket "("!
Sounds like you have a completely different keyboard over there. Do you have a ½ key, or do you still have to mess around with the Alt key and the number pad for that?
Sounds like you have a completely different keyboard over there.
My keyboard has Hispanic, Russian, Greek, Chinese, Korean, and Hebrew symbols on each key. Some keys are shared, for example the Spanish "n" tilde is on the N key, but in Spanish there is no strange "g", so the G key is just G in Spanish. Massachusetts State Government has mandated that all important notices has to be distributed in all languages, and computer keyboards apparently fall under that law...
However, the law does not require that the operating system support these keyboards, so I can't actually type anything in any other language!
AEM7
However, the law does not require that the operating system support these keyboards, so I can't actually type anything in any other language!
I have the reverse situation. I have my computer set up so that I can switch it into Greek, but the keyboard's only labelled in Roman, so it's a matter of knowing the Greek keyboard layout.
"The only way the dollar coin will get acceptance is if they stop printing dollar bills."
-Hank
And that is what they did in Canada. They introduced the 'Loonie', and stopped printing $1 bills, and after the public got over that, they introduced the 'Twoonie' and stopped printing $2 dollar bills.
For myself, I like the idea of coins; however, Americans won't tolerate a pocket full of heavy coins.
Jim K.
Chicago
Why would people have a pocket full of heavy coins? People should spend their change when given the oppurtunity. There is no reason to have more than $1 in change now, and $5 if the dollar bill is eliminated. It would only be $2 if the $2 bill has its circulation increased.
As it is now, $1 is worth as much as 25¢ were 30 years ago. It makes no more sense to have a $1 bill now than it did to have a Quarter-dollar bill in 1970. People are already carrying more change if they don't use credit cards and the like.
It makes no more sense to have a $1 bill now than it did to have a Quarter-dollar bill in 1970.
That'd be nice... a Quarter Bill!
"Why would people have a pocket full of heavy coins? People should spend their change when given the oppurtunity."
Because you're now asking people to think and systematically reduce their coinage at every opportunity.
I'm not against coins, so why don't we have them?
Jim K.
Chicago
I worked in the Amusement/vending industry for twenty one years. Someone got this great idea...a small dollar coin...the Susan B. Anthony dollar. Super, pinball machines had a new coin slot for SBA dollars. Coin was repeatedly mixed with quarters, most were hoarded by collectors. So, in the process of coming up with paper currency that could not be counterfitted, we're back to SBA dollars...vending machine acceptors come out with four column units: nickels, dimes, quarters and dollars...so you can put a five dollar bill into a Coke machine and get 3.50 back without emptying the accumulator.
It costs $1.62 to produce one paper dollar that lasts seven years of usage. Attempts to produce higher currency values immune from counterfitting have not been sucessful. Metallic currency without intrinsic value (silver/gold) seems to be a bargain...maybe we need smaller coins. Personally, I like currency debit cards and interactive wireless phones (Nokia.) I had maintained coin changers that exchanged millions of dollars of currency and if your into TA, God only knows what will happen to you if your machines go 'Las Vegas.' Turned down 'Revenue Maintainer' to MAKE TRAINS GO. CI Peter
maybe we need smaller coins.
Don't say that. Have you seen the current British 5p piece? They are too small (plus they don't say "One Shilling" on them).
Hey, not my problem. Troubleshooting coin ACMRs is a real pain in the butt when they have been vandalised. What's worse is bill acceptors that someone forced an adhesive sticker into...the mech receives it and glues it into place. 5p coin??? Wassup with GB metric...shouldn't everything be divisibale by 100? Five pence coin...sumpthin like a nickel...got an old 1p that looks like a fifty cent piece. I'll do two years of Redbird undercar before I'd take a week of Revenue Maintainance. Metallic coinage lasts almost forever but tiny coins jam up mechs...gimme retinal scans and brain MRIs for Revenue transfer. CI Peter
got an old 1p that looks like a fifty cent piece.
That'll actually be a 1d (yes, Penny was abbreviated to d for Denarius before metrication) with Britannia on one side and some monarch or other on the back - I was using Shillings and Florins with King George VI on the back up until the introduction of the new 5p and 10p coins - King George had been dead for forty years. Shillings and Florins (and for that matter Sixpences and Half-Crowns) dating from before the late 1940s are harder to come by as they were actually made of silver so have been hoarded - my grandmother still has quite a collection (including a Queen Victoria silver 3d - another coin that was unpopular through being too small). The coin I'd love to lay my hands on is a pre-1947 Rupee (1s6d).
One-and two-schilling coins were still circulating in 1978 when I was in London. They were the same size as the 5p and 10p coins.
They were the same size as the 5p and 10p coins.
Not anymore. They took the large 5p and 10p away too.
How big are those coins now?
5p is about 5/8 inch across, 10p is about an inch across. 10p is about the same size as the quarter, or same size as the old 5p.
AEM7
Wow, that's what I call downsizing! I still have a few of those older coins. The 10p coin was about the size of a silver dollar.
The 10p coin was about the size of a silver dollar.
And the Florins used to be made out of silver until IIRC 1947. Calling it a ten-pee was an unforgivable mistake of the Heath government.
They're both really thin, so the 10p doesn't look like a Shilling even though it's about the right diameter. The 5p is WAY too small - it's smaller than the 1p and it doesn't look right (well, nor do any of the other coins now even the 50p has been replaced).
When do you think they would start making these coins in China? Surely it's cheaper to move the Royal Mint over there. All the new coinage are flimsy enough anyway. I think they should phase out all 1p, 2p and 5p coins, so everything would be $x.x rather than $x.xx
AEM7
Surely it's cheaper to move the Royal Mint over there.
Nowhere can be cheaper than Llantrisant - there are no other jobs there (well I suppose there are a few sheep).
think they should phase out all 1p, 2p and 5p coins, so everything would be $x.x rather than $x.xx
I'd just phase out the 1p and 2p, then stop all this rubbish about £#.## and instead write all amounts in Shillings ##s
They were circulating well into the 1990s - yes the NINETIES.
British James never answered my original question: Are there vending machines in Great Britain? Judging by the size and variety...coin acceptors would have a difficult time sorting out denominations. It is no wonder the 'Euro' was developed in decimal denominations. pounds, Florins and Pees...I thank God I can purchase nails by size and legnth...instead of 'penny' eg 16 penny nail. CI Peter
There are vending machines - they usually only take 1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p and £1 coins. The £2 coin is useless.
The term "Florin" was an alternative name of the 2s coin which became the old 10p. It's no worse than a 25c coin being called a "Quarter".
If a can of Coke or Pepsi is seventy five cents, how much does it cost in GB currency? If a ride on NYCTA costs $ 1.50 in hard coinage, how much does it cost in.........you got the message. How many coin varieties can a vendor accept....seven? CI Peter
Most of the vending machines reject 1p, 2p, and some of them 5p also. For example, payfones will only take 10p and up. So it's not that complicated. Most machines only need to deal with four types of coins: 10p, 20p, 50p and $1.
AEM7
10p, 20p, 50p and Dollars?
You wish! I think he meant £ not $!
Well how do you type that funny L thing?
HEH
Shift-3 here.
Num Lock On, hold Alt, type on numberpad 163 there.
You have to type 0163. Otherwise it won't work.
If a can of Coke or Pepsi is seventy five cents, how much does it cost in GB currency? If a ride on NYCTA costs $ 1.50 in hard coinage, how much does it cost in.........you got the message. How many coin varieties can a vendor accept....seven?
Typically precisely those thigs can be the most expensive in the UK. A 75¢ can of Coke/Pepsi if just exchange rates were used would come out about 50p. You can still find some vendors who will sell it for 50p, but it has been creeping up... 60p, 65p, 70p, 80p even £1 in some really rip-off places.
Likewise transit is expensive in Britain. A $1.50 fare in the US would suggest a £1 fare in the UK. Here are some examples of how this is not the case:
Birmingham - local buses: fares ranging up to £1.30 peak, 95p off-peak, no transfers, day ticket (called a Daysaver, locally known as a Daywaster) £2.50
Birmingham - so called Metro: fares ranging up to £1.80 single, £3.00 return, no transfers, day ticket £3.50
Birmingham - bus, metro and local rail one day ticket £5.00
Glasgow - subway: single 90p, ten trips for £7.50, twenty trips for £11.50 (57½p per trip!)
London - bus: single fare £1
London - commuter river service: single fare £4 (to/from Chelsea) £3 (to/from Docklands), travelcards not valid
London - underground: single fare Zone 1 £1.60, single fare Zones 1-6 £3.60, single fare Zones 1-D (there are Zones A,B,C and D beyond 6 on the Met) £5.40, one day travelcard Zones 1-2 £5.30 (£4.10 off-peak), Zones 1-6 £10.50 (£5 off peak), Zones 1-D £12 (£6.60 off-peak)
Manchester - Metrolink: single fares up to £2.70, return up to £4.60
Newcastle-upon-Tyne - Metro: single fares up to £1.80, day ticket £3.00 (£1.50 after 1830)
As can be seen, everything except the London buses and the Glasgow subway (which has a grand total of one circular line - as a bit of a joke they have a one day "Discovery Ticket" priced at £1.60 - you can ride the entire system in 24 minutes) is rather expensive compared to NYC. The Birmingham buses seem pretty reasonable until you realise they demand exact change and any route you want to get will either (1) run at peak times only eg the 921 or (2) run two buses per hour erratically eg the 69.
I've also tended to notice a similar phenomenon in the UK with low-to-mid-priced restaurant meals, books, and the other kinds of thing visitors tend to buy - the prices look very similar to what you expect in New York, except they are in pounds rather than dollars.
The rest of Europe claims to suffer because they subsidise mass transit and railroads. The GB mass transit fares appear extremely complicated and require far more personel to monitor that the $ 1.50 subway trip. CI Peter
It's all automatic. Automatic ticket machines, automatic fare barriers, and automatic ENTRY and EXIT turnstile controls.
Never listen to anything the Brussels politicians yells. They are MUCH MUCH worse than the U.S. Congress. I don't even want to start talking about that.
AEM7
In 1976 I attended a ham radio convention at the same time and same place of the American Legion (Legionarres Disease.) Took SEPTA 'high Speed' from Camden to Philadelphia and had my first encounter with 'entrance and exit' turnstiles. Would not last long in NYC. As for Brussels, socialist concepts are crap considering their part in world history BUT decimalisation of currency is a plus...Euro weight is extremely unstable considering the unstable currency values of participating nations. Belgian Waffles, chocolates, frites and Brownings are the only things of value to us....Benelux means crap. CI peter
Took SEPTA 'high Speed' from Camden to Philadelphia
That would be PATCO, not SEPTA.
Next you'll be telling me I could dine in a very plush restaurant in NYC for $30 per head... ouch, did I really spend £37 in that restaurant last friday night...
It's true too. H and I were at Bunea Vista (or something similar) last month (before we broke up) in Arlington, MA. Only set me back $50 too. Very nice Italian dinner for two.
AEM7
Oh dear - I'm sorry to hear about that.
Don't be. If H and I hadn't had broken up, I wouldn't be back with M, no? :-) Was a piece of luck and a half.
AEM7
Your life sounds almost as complicated as mine was 2 months back.
Do all of your girlfriends work for MI6 and thus have letters for names?
Let's see: a Farthing was a quarter of a penny, right? A halfpenny was self-explanatory. Was a Crown 5s or 10s?
Half a crown was half of a guinea plus one (old) pence.
No wonder we bailed out GB in WW2....they're figuring out half a crown is half a guinea plus a pence while Adolph was trying to make em a 'Free Republic of the Deutsche Democratische Bund.' Now lets see...half a crown is more than half a guinea, 50p gets you half a bottle of Coke, does three halves of crown get you one subway token with three cents in change? Oh, you drive on the LEFT SIDE of the road and you buy gas in one litre Coke Bottles? Pass the Dutchie on the left hand side, please. CI Peter....I am so confused!
A Crown was 5s - although you rarely could find such a coin in circulation. More common were Half-Crowns which were 2s6d.
Guineas were (and are) a money of account valued at 21s (£1/1/-, £1.05 in new money).
Whilst on moneys of account, there was also a Mark, with a seemingly strange value of 13s4d (in fact this is two thirds of a pound).
The great weakness of the old system was the vast gap between the Half-Crown and the Ten Shilling Note.
Common coins in circulation pre-decimalisation were:
¼d - Farthing
½d - Ha'penny
1d - Penny
3d - Thre'pence
6d - Sixpence
1s - Shilling (=12d)
2s - Florin
2s6d - Half-Crown
Common notes in circulation pre-decimalisation were:
10s
£1 (=20s=240d)
£5
Less common coins included:
Quarter and Half Farthings (IIRC in India)
¾d - Three Farthings
1½d - Three Ha'pence
2d - Half-Groat
4d - Groat
1s6d - Rupee (in India)
5s - Crown
Before the modern era, there were also coins valued at 6s8d.
Air traffic control is simpler...troops in Malvinas/Falklands got confused figuring out ther pay when they should be maintaining their FALs (FNA1#2 SLRs) when Argentinian forces took 'pot shots.' GB was right in not sucking up to the Euro but decimal is so easy. Found a really nice caliper at a tractor show at a bargain price...tool was worthless because it was in 'decimal inches.' Only things we got from yoose guys is Anglicanism and Speaking English. "In the hole, IN THE HOLE, Speak English." CI Peter
but decimal is so easy.
Depends what you want to do - dividing by factors of 3 can give a bit of a mess in decimal systems. Plus in terms of money, I'd rather get rid of the point and just have big numbers.
'decimal inches.'
Let me guess - inches divided into ten not sixteen?
How about English units of measurement divided by one thousand. Precision machine tool industry uses it and was to change out to metric BUT just try going to the hardware store to match a dimension.
Homeless Depot sells sinker nails by the inch....sixteen penny nails are in museums. CI Peter
And a quarter is also still referred to, by "old-timers," as "two bits." I do not remember the origin of that.
It's because a dollar is the same as a byte.
AEM7
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Because a quarter is equal to two pieces of eight.
Remember when the stock market traded in eighths and not cents?
Yes, thank you. That makes sense.
May I assume that the market did not always list prices as finely as /16 ans /32 (prior to the decimal switch)?
I don't know what they did with that, but the decimal switch in the United States occured in 1791, the pieces of eight were from previous incarnations of the Dollar.
The United States was the first country with decimal currency. Ironic, isn't it?
IIRC Jefferson came up with the idea of decimal currency.
This is getting worse...a quarter is two pieces of eight...a half crown is one half giunea plus a pense. I'd shoot myself before taking on MVM Revenue Maintainance in GB. CI peter
a half crown is one half giunea plus a pense
No, it isn't.
A crown is 5 shillings, a guinea is 21 shillings
Plus I don't think there has EVER been a coin valued at 10s7d - it seems a rather strange amount.
Well, we got rid of the $2 without introducing a coin in its place.
We still have the $2.
How many do they print a year? In this age, a $2.00 would probably be more useful than a $1.00 bill. Every so often I get one, but I think most people hoard them.
Most vendor acceptors are NOT programmed to accept two dollar notes so their intrinsic value in commerce is worthless...even cash register trays have no slot to store them. The SBA dollar coin ressurection was supposed to be a boost to vending machines...vends over one dollar were impossible because they could not return change from a five dollar note. The Postal Orifice was the first sucker...who needs those coins that look like quarters that the blind cannot determine it's a dollar denomination? CI Peter
vends over one dollar were impossible because they could not return change from a five dollar note.
Ah, almost as good as pre-Euro Italian parking meters - the cheapest in Europe. Theoretically the largest coin was L1000 (although this was very unpopular and everyone used the notes), worth less than 50 cents, and the largest in common circulation was L500, worth less than 25 cents - very few meters demanded over L1000 as a result.
Italys' currency value is like jumbo rolls of toilet paper...just worth less. Hang a roll of Scotts on a meter and you can park for a week. CI Peter
Italys' currency value is like jumbo rolls of toilet paper...just worth less.
Exactly what was good about it. It meant that things were cheap. I don't like currency that's worth anything much - another reason why I dislike the Euro.
They've done this in Lithuania, too. When the litas was reintroduced in 1993 (it was their monetary unit prior to WWII), there were 1Lt, 2Lt, and 5Lt notes. When I was there last month, coins had replaced all three notes in those denominations. Plus the 2Lt and 5Lt coins have a different color in the center (bronze) than the outside. Finally a 200Lt note has been introduced - not that inflation has been rampant.
They didn't completely reject the Kennedy and Eisenhower coins - they are all sitting in coin collections!
And the Eisenhower dollars are still big in Atlantic City and Las Vegas :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The reason the $1 coin has not been accepted by the public is mainly because of its design. In the old days, when coinage was designed, they often commemorated nationally prominent figures, landmarks, and animals. Nowadays, in a drive for so-called political correctness, they commemorate nothing. The Susan B. Anthony dollar -- who the hell was she? Anyway it was too similar to the quarter to be useful. The new Golden Dollar has no class. It looks like some cheaply made shit in a Chinese sweatshop. It does not have the nice graduation on the edge that all American coins have. And it becomes discoloured with grease or anything else. I have never seen a coin that is shittier than the U.S. Golden Dollar.
I don't know why the Half Dollar never caught on, perhaps because it was simply too big to be practical. If they were to mint a $1 coin with a figurehead of Washington and some kind of national symbol on the front (say the White House), then people would accept them. The vast parts of America are still very patriotic and very conservative and very racist. No point trying to push political correctness. The fact that Texas has pretty much totally rejected the Golden Dollar is a social commentary on the Heartlands, and many other parts of rural America.
Whether you like it or not, the Heartlands still has more population than New York City and Boston put together.
AEM7
"The reason the $1 coin has not been accepted by the public is mainly because of its design."
People are naturally conservative about their personal habits.
Can you cite any country where a coin has replaced a bill except through the mint no longer printing that bill? In Canada, they simply stopped printing $1 bills, and in the UK they stopped printing pound notes.
In the quasi-libertarian US, the government does not want to brave the public outcry that would result if they stopped printing $1 bills. Canada and the UK didn't care about the grumbling (which is the difference; there they grumble, here the public would say throw them out, even if they didn't actually follow through).
Can you cite any country where a coin has replaced a bill except through the mint no longer printing that bill? In Canada, they simply stopped printing $1 bills, and in the UK they stopped printing pound notes.
In Scotland, the English Pound Coin has been interchangable with Scottish Pound Notes (Bills) for years. The Royal Bank of Scotland and Clydesdale Bank both still prints ONE POUND notes in vast quantities, and some Scots prefer to use them instead of Pound Coins which are essentially an English invention. However, on boarding rapid transit vehicles, and feeding parking meters and other vending machines, they are perfectly happy to use the POUND COIN. Most Scots keep ONE POUND of both varieties in their SPARRON. Most will pay a human with a pound note and pay a machine with a pound coin. It's part of the social etiquette.
AEM7
"The Susan B. Anthony dollar -- who the hell was she?"
Do yourself a huge favor. Check out:
http://dir.yahoo.com/Arts/Humanities/History/U_S__History/By_Subject/Women_s_History/Women_s_Suffrage/Anthony__Susan_B___1820_1906_/
and look around on some of the hyperlinks.
Interestingly, the first designs for the SBA $ pictured her as a young woman. The fems went nuts, resulting of the image of SBA shortly before her death. We called them "Lizzie Borden" dollars.
The coin