I decided to delve into the Books for specs on the trucks of the R-17. If what I read is correct, R-15s had SKF roller bearing trucks, R-17s had Hyatt, and R-21s got Timkens. How interesting! Branford's Car has an SKF Truck and a Timken Truck. May someone correct me if I make a mistake.
The original Hyatt Truck under 6688, which was damaged in '92, sitsoutside coupled to a Trolley Work Motor near Barn 6.
The Source of Information is the Evolution of the NYC Subways Book from the Transit Museum.
-Stef
acording to cbs newz last night the amrtak route called the
"empire builder" & all of the other amtrak long distance
lines will be toast,... & will not be funded and will die off...
& I understnd this will kill many folks who use amtrak for not
just passenger use only but pakage express and other services as
well..( i dont like flying anyway ) ....@ oh well...!!!
( sigh ) ..........
I knew that this moment would come sooner or later. The president of the NRPC (Amtrak's real name) said himself during congressional hearings not that long ago that such routes were never going to be profitable. So basically look for routes that are not defined as "high speed corridors" to get the ax first. Hopefully the "high speed corridors" list includes the City of New Orleans and the Silver Service lines (I got major interests at work here. It was a real pain in the rear the last time I went to see my extended family in SC, having to rent a car and drive for 18 hrs and all).
you know if common sense were used amtrak would B included in some
kind of a reliable transportation alternative backup....
there should B railroad transportation all over the U.S. ...!!
sure beats that airport crap... guess i better go greyhound !!!
lol .........
Hey! I'd *fly* long before I'd ever consider long distance travel on a BUS!
I am planning on riding the Empire Builder when I come east for vacation this fall.
Elias
i dont think i could deal with the airport...>>^*@**@!#*^$@<<better hurry up and catch amtrak while U can ......!!
Planes are all the rage NOW! It used to water transport then rails now planes. Thats life get over it. Until the MTA buys railfan windowed cars Amtrak will not be profitable (until hell freeze over). Amtrak is not wanting to compete with airlines which is why they are magots eating it alive. Amtrak has to make the NEC faster (200 mph) and make a high speed route between NY and Chicogo (300 mph at the minimum, maglev or TGV) and other high traffic routes that airlines have high demand on. Would you rather take a train which is 7 hours or a plane which is 2(plane)+4(delayes)+3(security)=9 hours and you are harrased by the cops and security guards!
From today's Boston Globe.
Boy... Makes the teething problems of the R142's and Metro's CAF cars seem pretty mild in comparison. I'm glad I was at least able to ride the Type-8's once or twice while living in Boston.
-- David
Chicago, IL
When is MBTA going to pull the plug on Breda, kill the contract and then place an order with Kinki-Sharo for low-floors that won't screw up and live with the 7's without shipping them for a retrofit that makes them unable to multiple with the unmodified 7's?
This has been going on much too long. Makes the late, unlamented Adtranz actually look like a good company. MBTA has be screwed by Breda with none of the pleasure.
This whole situation is just pathetic! I don't see how the remaining Boeings are going to last, and there is already a green line car shortage. I realize the MBTA accepted these cars, but they should make Breda pay for these repairs. -Nick
"I realize the MBTA accepted these cars, but they should make Breda pay for these repairs. -Nick "
And Breda will say that the problem is with the track, and not their responsibility at all. And they would probably be right. Too bad you cant just buy trolley cars right out of the box.
Maybe Athern should make them.
Elias
Too bad you cant just buy trolley cars right out of the box.
Although the PCC car was a grand experiment in that direction. Had it worked out as intended, that's exactly what you would have done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I really don't know much about PCCs. Why didn't they work out as intended? I thought that they were successful, considering that there were lots of PCCs out there.
One post said that even their old PCC had up to 5 derailments a year, and Boston thought this was acceptable.
Other PCC operators said "NOT"
The new cars are low riders (find your way to the Lyons (France) street cars on this site, to see what I think they mean by this) and thus are a technology unknown to Boston. My guess is that they cannot tolerate the poor trackmanship that seems to be there.
Actually the French Tollies are very striking, and is the sort of thing that I would want to put in NYC (on dedicated on-street ROWs) Of course these look like some kind of a slug that you might find under a damp rock, but are nice nonetheless.
Elias
I find it ironic that the "T" states in their Night Owl service that they close each night to maintain the system.
Perhaps, after riding most of the Green Line, they should focus a bit on the tracks! There is a part of the line that goes out to Riverside where I thought the car was going to be run off the tracks.
Chip
"One post said that even their old PCC had up to 5 derailments a year, and Boston thought this was acceptable."
The article in the Globe mentioned five derailments a year as if this were current. Therefore it is likely that these derailments were with the Boeing LRV / Kinki Sharyo fleet mostly.
"And Breda will say that the problem is with the track, and not their responsibility at all. And they would probably be right"
Interesting point, but I don't know if that is true or not. The MBTA started running the type 8s in 2001 strictly on the "B" (Boston College) line after derailments in 2000. They did this after replacing a section of the track on that line. I know that one of the 2001 derailments occured in the central subway, but did the other occur where the new or old track was? -Nick
IMHO, if the Kinki's and the Boeing don't derail, running over the same tracks its Breda's fault
I find it interesting that Breda is still blaming the T's track for derailment problems. It is apparent that the "sensitivity" of these cars to existing conditions that do not affect the PCC/LRV/Type7 fleet is a thin argument. Sound vehicle design and engineering takes into account a variety of car and track wear conditions foreseen in the real world, plus a safety factor (either industry standard or by experience) built in. Experience (which Breda has several decades of) should have headed this off before it got to delivered cars, why it didn't only Breda knows.
It is unfortunate that the riding public will have to bear with the Boeings for sometime to come, and the T to continue to have servicable car shortages to maintain schedules. It is fortunate, however, that this was identified before the Type 8 cars became accepted, because it would be a tragedy if someone got seriously hurt/dead.
The PCCs and their ilk have regular railway trucks.
The newer sorts of low riding cars do not.
They are so low that I could not see any trucks at all, but I suspect that the wheels are mounted on each side of the frame more in the manner of casters. I do not see where an axel might be which is why I think that there are so many problems with these.
Maybe someone can enlighten us with facts instead of my guesses.
Elias
Why don't they just reverse engineer and copy ALL electrical and mechanical systems on the PCC cars and copy the superior 1936 technology within modern style carbodies with air conditioning. As for the low floors, I think that ADA should be amended so that transit properties merely have to provide van service to those who need it (cheaper than unreliable bus lifts and low floor vehicles and more convenient to differently abled customers).
Providing van service is not cheaper than using lifts, by a long shot. According to the NTD, it costs around $20.00-$30.00 ($53.00 in Atlanta) to transport a passenger with a van service, while it costs about $1.00-$4.00 for bus and rail.
How much does the cost of installing and maintaining ADA Compliance features add to the cost of transit vehicles (low floors, bus lifts, etc.
<<< It is unfortunate that the riding public will have to bear with the Boeings for sometime to come >>>
From my experience, there's nothing wrong with the Boeing LRV's from a passenger standpoint. They've been fairly comfortable when I've ridden them in recent years, in both summer and winter. And since the LRV's and Type 7's have similar-looking interiors, I doubt many passengers notice the difference anyways.
Probably the bigger disadvantage is that the Boeing cars are no doubt becoming more costly to keep in service. IIRC, the rebuilding program undertaken by the MBTA in the mid-1990's was intended to keep the remaining 55 cars going for 5 years at most.
Ironic, isn't it, that the LRV's are now being called upon the keep the Green Line going while the MBTA fights to get a problematic new fleet of cars in service!
Jim D.
The Boston Type 8 cars seem to be another example of what can happen when off-the-shelf European or Asian technology is adapted to American operating requirements. Just as Amtrak's Acela compromised French high-speed designs with resulting dimensional, weight and operating troubles, the Type 8s appear to be a matter of force-fitting low-floor cars onto a centurty-old system with its own unique operating characteristics - and pitfalls.
That said, it does seem the T should have realized that cars substantially different from those in service will need more time and design tweaking to perform properly. Then again, Boston HAD low floor designs (at least a low entrance) almost 90 years ago in the form of the 6000-series center-entrance cars plus the infamous "two-rooms-and-a-bath" trolleys built using two old single-truckers with a low center section spliced in between them. And some of those ungainly 6000s ran until the early 1950s!
Still NO EXCUSE for shoddy engineering or manufacturing. BREDA and CAF get paid to produce smething functional, not just go through the motions. IIRC, the CAF folks couldn't even be relied on to use the specified grade of steel for the axles UN 'qualified bidder' !
Do you keep track of each message that you delete? I am just curious as I am waiting, pressing the refresh button each time, the number of responses changed from "1445" to "1444."
Because the oldest message is now TOO OLD to be in the index, it is now older than your search limit.
I see. My view is set to "Three Days". I have given up "One Month" because it took too long to load 5726 messages. (Last time I did)
Pig gave you your answer but about the deleted messages, yes I keep track of them.
I was just wondering if any NYCTA routes are available for download or if there are any routes are in developement for MSTS? thanx :)
I wish there were.
I think Microsoft should make a NYC Subway Simulator. That would rule.
Are u kidding me? Microsoft would mess that up big time.
Ever since i got MSTS, i've been waiting for NYC routes.
Check out www.monorails.org Old Dominion University in Norfolk VA is opening this fall a Maglev to shuttle students around campus. Although it is said to be the first revenue maglev, but didn't Birmingham England in the mid 1980's operate Maglev shuttle between it's airport and nearby rail station? Does this still operate?
"but didn't Birmingham England in the mid 1980's operate Maglev shuttle between it's airport and nearby rail station?"
Is it a "revenue" service?
didn't Birmingham England in the mid 1980's operate Maglev shuttle between it's airport and nearby rail station? Does this still operate?
It did indeed. (It was about 10 miles from where I am sitting now.) Theoretically it wasn't a "revenue" service as it was provided free of charge. It was replaced a few years ago by a very slow shuttle bus (the traffic at BHX can be appalling) - still costing £0.00 - because it'd cost too much to keep the MagLev in repair. It's a bit of a shame really, as it was a very smooth ride (on the rare occasion it hadn't broken down) and there were quite nice views from it.
Is the Track/guideway still up?
Yes. The Maglev is being replaced by a Dopplemeyer cable hauled system using most of the original ROW. Birmingham International Airport's webpage has info about this.
Berlin had a maglev, but it was removed in the early 1990's to make way for a U-Bahn line.
I guess the technology is not as impressive as people thought it might be.
Elias
CHATHAM SQUARE IN SESSION
RIGHT NOW!
BusTalkers are welcome, too!Chatham Square is the place to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!ARE YOU READY TO EMBARK ON AN EXCITING JOURNEY TO CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just click here and join in! (Note the new, temporary address) If you have mIRC, do not click the link. The room name is #chathamsquare and is on the webchat.org server. COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
If anyone is interested in answering some Arrow III questions for me, you can visit the post at Railroad.net under the heading "Arrow III Questions".
I have posted two more messages under this heading. If anyone is willing to visit please click the link posted under the first thread.
I have only received a brief answer from only one poster at Railroad.net, so anyone is free to post or answer.
I just got a new scanner and have a question. I have a file scanned and saved it in Window Imaging as a .bmp file. How can I post it in a new message so you Subtalkers can see it? Pardon my ignorance
on this subject , but I am sure someone out there can help!
Chuck
Chuck, first you have to upload it to some internet webspace - your personal web space that you probably have from your ISP, for example - and then post a link. Since I'm no good at figuring out how to make the actual html commands display here, I'll post an image from Branford of PCC 1001 approaching Short Beach and then you can "View Page Source" and look at my html to see how to do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, and let me suggest that you save the file as a .jpg if you can... works a lot better on the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, I'll try to work something out.
Chuck
STOP LOOK LISTEN
1) Your scanner scans in DOTS PER INCH
2) Your printer prints in DOTS PER INCH
3) BUT your screen views in PIXELS (Picture Elements)
---a. if your monitor is like most it is set to 800 px
---b. which translates to about 72 DOTS PER INCH
---c. so do not scan pictures for the internet at more than this number.
4) The internet prefers .jpg format pictures
---a. set your scanner to save the file as a .jpg
---b. .jpg images may be saved in higher or lower compression.
---c. choose the most compressed or smallest number that still looks good.
---d. this will allow faster loading and downloading and save bandwidth.
5) save the photo to your website (preferably with your ISP if they allow this.
---a. many free ISPs will not permit images to be viewed from outside of their own site. Make an .html page with the picture on it.
---b. you may be able to find free image hosting sites, some people here use them.
6) you can make it a click-on, or you can make it appear in-line.
---a. a click on is written {a href="http://yourwebsite.com/image.jpg"}My Train{/a} (Make the braces "{" be angled brackets. The text "My Train" will be the text that is highlighted as a click-on.
---b. an in-line photo is {img src="http://yourwebsite.com/image.jpg}
Elias
> .jpg ... works a lot better on the web.
Especially on Netscape. Netscape has always had a bug which prevents it from displaying .bmp files. I have written
to them about it, as well as other things, but they don't care.
- Lyle Goldman
.bmp files are not native to any WC3 protocol that i know of, and they certainly are not appropriate for use on the internet.
If MSIE products appear to support .bmps it is only because of its tight interation with the operating system which does support them.
However I just this moment discovered that Opera also supports .bmp files, so I guess that was a choice made by the people at netscape.
But then netscape *is* a *browser* and .bmp files have no business on the internet, them being much to big for transmission, esp with smaller connections.
The supported internet graphics files are .jpg .gif and .png the latter intended to replace the .gif protocol which is heavily licensed. .png is slow in catchin on however.
Elias
That's not a bug. No browser is obligated to support inline viewing of any particular format (Lynx, a text-based browser, doesn't support inline viewing of any graphical format, although it will launch an external viewer if available). It's become traditional for graphical browsers to support certain formats, like GIF, JPEG, and PNG, although even that isn't required. BMP has certainly not made it to that list, for good reason.
What you're asking for isn't a bug fix; it's a new feature. Send your request to the proper channels and the right people will see it. (That doesn't mean they'll decide to implement it, of course.)
Which FD telephoto lens did you use for this picture? I'm thinking about spending the next paycheque already and the FD 70-150 4.5 distinctly lacks contrast and is difficult to focus quickly...
-Robert King
Canon FD 100-300 5.6 - an old one, albeit with the more modern bayonet, not the preferred breechlock - not new enough to have the macro focus like Jr. has on his 70-210 4.5. I was down close to the 100mm end, probably around 150 but I don't recall for sure.
The 70-150 has a reputation as being a "flat" lens - one of the reasons it's not in my arsenal. Jr.'s 70-210 is much better for non-tripod applications than my 100-300 so if you don't need the 300 and want to work hand-held I'd say find a nice 70-210. OR, if you don't need the zoom, get an FD 135 3.5 - nice ones with a breechlock show up regularly on eBay, much less money than the zoom. I've got one of those too - bought it new 30 years ago - but don't carry it often because my wife likes to have it available for her use.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That had to be around 150 at least, if not more. Look how tightly the ties are packed together and the compression of the PCC's length. I don't recall the ties being compressed that much the one time I've used the 70-150 around railway track like that (the Halton museum) right out at 150mm when I took a picture of an all electric PCC. 4600 didn't appear to be that drastically compressed either.
Anyways, that's a nice picture of 1001.
-Robert King
75-96 DPI is sufficient for web use.
*That* is all that your monitor can display.
Elias
We're referring to focal length setting on the zoom here, Elias... 150mm, not 150 dpi...
And yes, it could conceivably be at full (300mm) zoom or somewhere approaching that, but I don't recall it as such. Didn't write it down, though, so I can't be sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glad you like the shot. Incidentally, that's Lou from Brooklyn at the controls.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
Nice shot. Also thanks for identifying the operator. Next time he
cretches, he doesn't run Brooklyn caws, well in living color on 1001.
:-) Sparky
Gawdarn, now you have my face all over the internet!!! >G<
Just kidding!!
Ohh and Jeff's signals are working.
yep ! i tried dat webshots then yahoo tripod they all rejected my
photos uploads
it killed everything
"webshots then yahoo tripod they all rejected my photos uploads"
They certainly will not accept .bmps and probably will reject large .jpgs. many do not allow .gifs either.
Elias
I got disassociated from Tripod, which I had stopped using anyway when I found Yahoo photos. Then when you steered me to Webshots, I've used it ever since...without problem except for a weekend when they were down.
chuchubob's Webshots photos
Sorry, Elias, I replied to the wrong message. It was Salaam who directed me to Webshots.
my point is uploading my transit photography has been blocked by
""webshots""
however i will try again on this post to prove or .......!!...?
i will try 2 see if my link works or fails the test below
if it does not oh well ......
oh well the link worked for a while ...
about one hour !!!
however i am working on a site here post this into your URL
still working on dis site under constrction !!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
thankz enjoy !!
I give up it seems all the websites i belong 2 dont allow uploads !
.........damn its like riding on a JUNK R-44 ....no railfan window !!\
UGH !
First, try to scan out of Photoshop or any other reasonable image software. Second, set DPI to a minimum of 150 for a 4x6 35mm film print. If the picture is especially good or has details or has large portions you plan to crop out then set the dpi higher to something like 200 or 300 dpi. The critical part is picking the Jpeg compression rate. The more compression, the poorer the image quality, the less compression, the larger the image. You want to shoot for a final image size of around 100k, with a maximum of about 150k. If you try a compression level and you come out too high, try a crop, resize or increase the compression. If you get a really small image size, try decreasing the compression to capture more detail. Uniform colours like a sky or wall make for small jpeg sizez. Complex patterns like RR balast or trees make for larger jpeg sizes.
Also, I've found that JPEG does a very poor job of compressing certain solid colors -- red, in particular, gets very splotchy even at reasonably high quality settings. This is a problem for me as I have a good number of head-on shots of 1 trains.
Is it a problem of the .jpg format, of your application, or were these pix taken with your digital camera.
Digital cameras have a funny matrix, since each pixel can be set to only record one color (R G B) Actually I think the pattern is something like RGBGRGBGRGBGRGBGR, and so reds are not well represented, and your application needs to fudge a bit to represent it. New chips for digital cameras are coming out now where each pixel *can* record all of the colors but these cost much much more. I expect the prices of the new chip to come down substantially in the coming year. This is why I am putting off buying a new digital camera from this year's budget.
Try scanning on a scanner a photo with similar red saturations, and then trying it in .jpg ; a .gif ; and a .tif format. Then you will know more. Also watch how you save it in the .jpg format, try bigger files sizes (les compression) to see if that helps. What size *is* your camera, if it is a 1.x or 2.x megapixel this is less good. I's not want one less than 3.x megapixel.
Actually .jpgs can display millions of colors, while the .gif alogorythem can oly show several hundred. This is why graphis are better as .gif while photos are better as .jpgs.
Elias
No digital camera here. I scan everything first into oversized lossless TIFFs or PNGs. Then I scale down to the size I want and manually convert to JPEG using xat.com JPEG Optimizer, which allows me to compress different parts of the image to different degrees.
I believe one recognized shortcoming of JPEG is that it does not do well on large areas of one color. (JPEG is designed to work best on photographic images. How often do photographic images have large areas of one color?) For whatever reason, it seems to do a particularly bad job on red. Unfortunately, the 1 is otherwise quite photogenic.
JPEG's can handle red at very low or lossless compression levels. On Paint Shoppe Pro that is a compression level less than 5.
On this past Thursday, there were two explosions or noises that sounded like explosions heard by numerous passengers at Atlatnic Ave on the Q line platform at around 6:40PM. Anybody have specific info?
MAJOR work there. I don't even know what the current layout is anymore. But it's looking nicer and nicer everyday.
A person or persons removed a no clearance sign ,witch then was place between the 3rd rail and running rail causing some small explosions and power to be turned off.
How does that cause an explosion???
Short circuit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where can I get a radio that can tap into the Subway radio frequencies?
Radio Shack.
Then you need somebody to tell you what freqs to tune it to.
Heck, *I* can't even tell you what freqs my ambulance pager runs on but chanel 1 is our local repeater that connects me to the Law Enforcement Center.
Elias
When you get a scanner, I'll give you the frequencies for NYC Transit.
Yeah... well, I'm probly a little too far away to pick it up anyway.
: ) Hehehehee.... Elias
How far is "a little too far away"?
I live in North Dakota : )
Don't think UHF is that powerful!
Learned that from a article where they were bitchin at the TAPD for not having the same radio tech (UHF for TAPD, VHF for NYPD) and channels as NYPD and that NYPD's radio can't work underground.
For the frequencies go to:
http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/frequencies/nycta.shtml
For a scanner try Radio Shack (as was heretofore mentioned) or if you anywhere near a Best Buy try them. The one on Queens Blvd has a couple of Bearcats: a sport model for about $175 and an older 60XLT model (I have one of those and it works well) for $62. You will usually find them in the car radio area of Best Buy.
Good Luck
Allan
What programs would you recommend for building subway stations?
BVE. By entering coordinates for vertexes, you can make objects. There's also a viewer if you don't want to use the simulation and code it into the program. E-mail me for infos if you want...
BVE is dead man.
Are you asking about actual CAD programs, or programs for train simulator games?
Can't help you with the latter, but if you're looking for actual CAD software, I'd use what the architects and engineers typically use: AutoCAD (used by about 75% of the architects in the US) or MicroStation (another popular CAD program). There are other CAD packages out there, but AutoCAD's DWG file format is the de facto standard in the construction industry these days.
Of course, AutoCAD is also grossly expensive and not typically available to the average Joe off the street. However, there's AutoCAD LT which is commercially available at a fraction of the price. It's 100% compatible with AutoCAD, but unlike the full version, LT has no 3D capability. (If you're a student, you may be able to get AutoCAD at a substantial discount. Try www.journeyed.com.)
Check out www.autodesk.com for more info about AutoCAD, or www.bentley.com for info about MicroStation.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thank You!
I'm more familiar with the engineering side of design (the better side :-) ). One program is called GTSTRUDL which is for structural analysis and is the creme de la creme of structural programs. There's another CAD program called CAiCE which specializes in transportation design, but I've only used it with road design, so I don't know what you can do with it for rail design. I have experience with Microstation working at the Ga DOT. I think AutoCAD is much better than Microstation. I've used AutoCAD 2000 with design projects for my classes at school. I'm currently designing a four-lane highway through an industrial area. It is much more intuitive and easier to use than Mircostation. Microstation has more features, but I still like AutoCAD more. Unfortunately for me, transport enigineers mostly use Microstation.
Like David said, all these programs cost too much for any individual to buy. If availible, a demo program of any of these would probably be enough for someone who's looking to just mess around on their own.
What does anyone see if they cut-and-paste? I just want to give this a shot
http://community.webshots.com/photo/20082785/31171235pGqwqcaWuR
Good picture. It is a little too dark on the platform. Sunset is brilliant. But everything else is in shadows.
COOL. I just wanted to see if I did it right. So now I can paste my links up here.
Very Nice Photo!
Thanks I try
Doesn't Work. All pictures are red X iconed out.
NICE pic... THANKS.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the MTA should give some thought into having the Subways coming to a Gradual stop, instead a rough stop, and they should also have the trains start off smoothly like the LIRR Cars. I also think the MTA should install vandal-resitant seats like they do with the Buses.
Sometime this week I will post something on what the MTA needs to do with the Trains.
What do you mean by rough stop? Do people get thrown out of their seats? Of course not! So there is no rough stop! Subways are rapid transit. Fast acceleration and fast stopping. If subway trains make a more gradual stop and accellerate slower, then NYCT would not have the ability to move as many passengers per hour through the Central Business District as currently due to increased running time. I also don't know what you mean about vandal resistant seats on buses. They are plastic just like what's in the subway, just a different color!
Just a little more off a smoother stop, braking there is to much jerking. I did'nt think about how taking off slow would affect Passengers Commute. If you have ever riden a new bus, they have vandal-resistant seats, I like this to be with the subways because they feel a little more comfortable, than hard seats.
Much more difficult to clean off the urine.
Blood and Gum. Are you talking about the hard seats with the shag carpet on them?
There are a lot of things the MTA could do, but the suggestions you listed unfortunately are infeasable.
If trains accelerate and decelerate slower (or, as you put it, gradually start and stop), the average speed of the train is slower. On the railroads where stopping and starting is less common (an hour at full speed and then 2 minutes of slowing and starting), this may work. But in the subway, much of the time is spent speeding up and slowing down (a minute between stations, and 20 seconds to get up to speed or to stop).
And I haven't noticed a problem with vandalism on bus seats. And besides, short of making the seats out of concrete or really hard plastic, it's probably not possible to prevent vandalism. And you're sitting on the vandalism, so it's not as if you can even see it most of the time.
Won't that slow down the train? I like the acceleration of the R142As but I hate jerkyness that the R-38/R-40s give off.
I did what could be called a 4-boro round robin yesterday evening. I get on the Q44 in the Bronx, and sit for a relativly uneventful trip all the way out to Jamaica Center. Board at Grant Cir at 6:30 PM, make it to Jamaica Center at around a quarter to eight.
Since I actually had to go to St. Alban's, I had to get the Q4 next. It just pulled out of layover near the bus bays when we got there, so all I had to do was to run ahead and catch the bus. It's #9060, with no A/C. It fills quickly (after a Q85 pulls in ahead of us).
Also an uneventful trip, save for traffic turning nonsense at Guy Brewer Blvd. The trip is fast, with arrival at St. Alban's (station) at around 8 PM. I stop by at a nearby church (St. Catherine's of Sienna, if you need to know), to drop in on a graduation party that was still an hour away.
It's around 8:10 PM. I need to get to Junior's at Dekalb before it closes. I figure that I could take the next train from St. Alban's to Brooklyn, with only a few blocks walk from Flatbush Av. Terminal. I check the schedule, and it indicates that the next City-bound train comes at 9:29 PM (Trick of fate to come, for "LIAR" commuters on this board).
Obviously disgusted, I go to wait for the next Q4 back to Jamaica Center. I notice (from Linden Blvd. below) that the station platform is half torn away, with some sort of work motor on the City-bound (Trk 1) track. By now it's 8:20. A westbound train pulls in blowing the horns for the workers on the track. I figure that its moving slow just because of the workers. I didn't notice that two cars (of the 6-8 car train) had platformed, with the second car having both of it doors open. Not for a couple of seconds at least. When I did notice people on the platform, I did a bee-line for the train, slipping and tripping up the poorly maintained stairs. Of course, I was too late; the train started pulling out at approx. 10 mph. I asked the just-detrained passengers if the train was heading for Bklyn; when they said yes, I did a 4 ft. vertical (I had actually wanted to yell "NOOOOO!" so loud that I could be heard on Madison Av. Has anyone else on this board ever experienced this and the feeling that follows?)
Dejected, I walk back downstairs. The Q4 (which was supposed to show at 2017 hrs) finally appears, and its almost 2025 hrs. It's #4570. I figure it's better than nothing. Well it was: this was one of those rare GMCs the TA has whose 6v92 still moves the bus. Thus, I get back to Jamaica Center at around 8:30 PM. Needing to get to Junior's in short order, I decide whether to take my chances with either the E to Queens Plz. with a transfer to the G for Fulton, the J (was that shuttle bus GO in effect yet?), or to walk to Sutphin for the next LIRR for Brooklyn? In the end, I decide to walk.
When I get to Sutphin, I see that the next train for Flatbush comes at 8:51PM. Its 8:40 PM at this time, so I get tickets from the machine (City Zone, right?) First train to pull in was the 8:46 "semi-express" to Penn Station, track 2. Then the 8:51, but again to Penn, and this time on track 1. I saw that HALL gave it priority over the 8:51 to Brooklyn. Nonetheless, the Brooklyn-bound local comes in on 2, with the front two cars dark but pressed into service.
(Oh and BTW, I saw while walking that the Airtain offices are now on Archer Av near Sutphin, and that the Jamaica terminal continues to take shape, with a huge space between track 3 and 4. Space for support pillars for the crossover, perhaps? And are those offices the backup for the offices at WTC?)
I'm in front, so that I can have a quick exit at Flatbush and to see the line from the bird's eye view. I have a few words with the engineer about when we get to Flatbush, where I'm going, and how I'm going to get back to the Bronx with the #2 still running local. After getting past the interlocking on the west side of Jamaica station he gets the train to take off into the Atlanic Av. tunnel, and I mean TAKE OFF! (Those who commented previously on the 70 MPH thru the tunnel, ya'll weren't kidding!)
I notice and abandoned station on the right hand side just inside the tunnel, and also notice how East New York station is actually at street level on Altantic.
Anyway, later on, after getting cheescakes from Jr's, I try to see if I can get to Union Square before 10. It's 9:30 by then, and I hope to get the Q as the quick way over. Getting down to Dekalb, I see a Q take the bypass, and then find that there's GO in effect. No choice but to take the N then. Next N comes around a minute or two later. Slants. I get up front. I see why they've been rerouting the N all the time: track rehab (the line needed it, with all the curves and everything). When reaching Rector St., I gear myself for the bypass of Cortland, which will be the first time since before (during, and after) 9/11 that I've gone thru the station and area by subway. Upon entering Cortland, I give a sign of the cross for all those who never got out alive and are still down there; I then see how the entrance to what would have been the lobby from the downtown platform was all boarded up. Sad. Very sad.
On the #6 riding home, at 59th street, the announcement is made for transfers to the "4, 5, N, and R trains." A little problem: the N was terminating at 57th, and I didn't think then that the R was even running save for the shuttle section in Brooklyn.
I make it back to Parkchester by 10:30, completing the round robin. Four boroughs, with I-don't-know-how-many-miles traveled.
The N is terminating at 59/Lex this weekend. The R is running between Continental and Canal via 63rd. But the automated R-142 announcements don't know about GO's anyway (they don't even know about any of the service changes over the past year).
Did you notice if the Q was taking the bypass in both directions? Two weekends ago it was running local on 4th Avenue and stopping at DeKalb in both directions.
The J shuttle bus GO starts next weekend. This weekend the only GO is express service from Broadway Junction (Eastern Parkway) to Marcy. Check the GO's online before you leave next time!
Correction: the R is running between Continental and 95th via 63rd this weekend. It's only split in two (Continental to Canal and 59th to 95th) when the N is running over the bridge, which it isn't this weekend.
thoses automated annouments were a waste of money. Just put in a jack and have the C/R wear a microphone that near the mouth. Not the smelly one you have to kiss to be heard.
I think automated announcements are a very good idea as long as they're designed and implemented well. I don't see why they couldn't be programmed each week for the upcoming GO's on all lines, along with appropriate announcements. (For instance, on the 2 at Fulton this weekend, it might have been nice to mention the uptown F.) But given what we've all seen and heard over the past year, I can barely imagine a worse design, and I'm more than a little bit annoyed that we New Yorkers have spent a lot of money to get blatantly incorrect information seemingly every time the train opens its mouth.
Q trains are bypassing DeKalb Avenue, over most of the day at least (don't know about midnights).
David
I can vouch for that. I had the rare opportunity of going through the bypass at the railfan window on an R-40 this afternoon.
But why? This weekend all (or most) Q trains were bypassing. Two weeks ago they were all stopping at DeKalb and running local. The week before that I'm told they were bypassing in one direction but not the other. Why the changes from week to week? I'll grant that visibility isn't all that great from the bypass track to the platforms, but I didn't see any platform or track work at DeKalb that would necessitate closing the wall tracks.
"Check the GO's online before you leave next time!"
Point taken.
And if you're anything like me, you'll go out of your way to run into them, not to avoid them.
Yes, how would you do it? Get rid of the extra passageways? Improve lighting? Now's your chance to share what you think about the MTA's plan to rehab Ts and how you may like to improve on it.
Kick out Disney, bring back the hookers. :)
Extra passage was are always fun. Esspecially if they have their original tile intact (old tile that is being covered up on the broadway local stations). I'am a mole person so I always like passage ways. If you wan't passage way, try montreals subway. I can walk between 4 different station on the same line all underground!
Extra passage ways are always fun. Esspecially if they have their original tile intact (old tile that is being covered up on the broadway local stations). I'am a mole person so I always like passage ways. If you wan't passage way, try montreals subway. I can walk between 4 different station on the same line all underground!
If you wan't passage way, try montreals subway. I can walk between 4 different station on the same line all underground!
The only thing like that I can think of anywhere else is in Paris:
Saint Lazare (3,12,13)
Haussmann - Saint Lazare (RER E)
Havre - Caumartin (3,9)
Auber (RER A)
Opéra (3,7,8)
All linked by passageways.
Even that only goes 3 stations along Ligne 3.
Not much. I honestly like what they've done so far a lot. The 41st Street IRT passageway has been opened up into a full mezzanine and the IRT platforms are already much more pleasant than they were two years ago.
There are three related changes I'd like to see. First, I'd like to see the two ramp complexes eliminated and replaced with escalators. Yes, more escalators -- the existing ones go straight between the 7 platform and the upper mezzanine; the new ones would go between the lower mezzanine and the upper mezzanine. Second, I'd extend the lower mezzanine eastward (now that we don't need to worry about the ramps there) under the BMT platforms and install new staircases there, so passengers transferring between the BMT and the IND or Flushing line don't need to use the upper mezzanine at all. (I believe the second phase of the rehab will be installing such staircases, but only to the SB BMT platform.) Third, I'd extend the lower mezzanine even further, to a fare control area just east of Broadway with long escalators running directly up to 41st Street, probably about halfway between Broadway and 6th. If I'm feeling really ambitious, I'd connect the mezzanine all the way through to the IND at 6th, and we'd end up with the only station complex served twice by the same subway line.
But that all costs money.
I wouldn't say that this is impossible. Let's say for the sake of argument that the Real Estate Board, etc. argues that it is too difficult to bring another tunnel and line into Lower Manhattan, and that the subways already have the (under-utilited) Montigue, the Jorolemon, and the Clark tunnels to this area. Is there any scenario under which losing the Cranberry could be something other than a race and class ripoff?
The only thing I can think of is a replacement tunnel and other connections for the subway, which would provide greater or equal service and greater or equal protection from the eventual loss of the Manhatattan Bridge to subway service.
The new tunnel could branch off from the 8th Avenue express tracks (would have to be the express) south of Canal, go across Worth Street (the old Second System idea), cross the river at Catherine Street and hook back into the A/C tracks in Brooklyn. You'd have to build the Rutgers-DeKalb connection as well, and perhaps do a "flip" so that the Rutgers Tunnel serves the express, the Manhattan Bridge the local.
That way, Brooklyn would still have three tunnels -- two express to Midtown, one local to Downtown, regardless of the future of the bridge. If the Lawrence-Jay pedestrian connection were built, it would be easy to change among those options.
Forget About bringing the LIRR Atlantic line to Manhattan.
I say, shut down that branch and give it back to the city for transit use.
LIRR downtown service should ride on the Montauk Branch, and then run SOUTH-WEST under the River to Avenue C and follow that around to the WTC.
Advantages:
1) New River Crossing will not add to lower manhattan congestion.
2) Fewer existing subway lines to interact with.
3) Ability to run markedly higher tph than is possible on the Atlantic.
4) Through service with NJT... (NJT Access to Sunnyside)
5) Through Service to and between LaGuardia and Newark Airports
LIRR/NJT WTC Station
Elias
That's an interesting concept.
When I was asked at City Planning awhile ago, I came up with a similar idea. It was based on coming up with ways to finance things, and on ideas going around subtalk three or four years ago.
It involved a super-express line from Secaucus Transfer in the Meadowlands, to stations at 10th Avenue, Times Square and Grand Central (on say 45th Street) in Midtown, then down Second Avenue on express tracks for that line to station(s) in Lower Manhattan, then through to Brooklyn in a new tunnel and out to Jamaica on the Atlantic Branch.
The idea is that with one easy change of trains, LIRR riders could get to Lower Manhattan, MetroNorth riders could get to Lower Manhattan, and New Jersey riders could get to Grand Central, all at high speeds on a sem-exclusive suburban train. It would be funded by the commuter tax, and a double fare for those not transferring from the commuter railroads. All these lines want a "one seat ride" to everywhere. This would provide a one- or two-seat ride to just about everywhere.
The rest of the idea had the Second Avenue line (ie. the local) built to FRA standards, charging a double fare, and integrated with the express and the commuter railroads as a premium service, rather than with the subway. On Subtalk, I called it the Snobway, but at City Planning I called it the RER, like the one in Paris.
I'd provide maps, but that is beyond my expertise.
We all know that the Cranberry tunnel will never be turned over to the LIRR. What they really want is a new tunnel for the LIRR into lower Manhattan, which of course will never be built for economic snd political reasons. The assumption here is that financial services firms can't wait to return to downtown, and that the "connector" is needed to bring in Long Islanders who also can't wait to return to downtown. That assumption is being proved false by the large number of firms that have relocated to Midtown and New Jersey.
"That assumption is being proved false by the large number of firms that have relocated to Midtown and New Jersey."
Hey, they had to go *somewhere*
and that *somewhere* would naturally require a long term lease.
But buildting this stuff in downtown is a long term deal anyway.
Now then, suppose they *did* move to New Joisey...
Commuters from Long Island still would need to get there, and what better way than LIRR trains running all the way into New Jersey.
This connection seems to be a better and better sort of an idea.
Additonaly with NJT trains carrying people directly to WTC, much of the PATH business becomes redundant. *That* service can be refocused to large park-and-ride facilities in New Jersey.
Elias
Getting them to Jersey is done better by the long-contemplated, long-unbuilt Bay Ridge branch tunnel across the harbor. They want this for freight, but passenger service, I think, would be more productive.
Elias is taken with Avenue C as a route for rail passengers into Lower Manhattan. So am I. My own view is to fill the East River a bit, 300 feet or so, and bring down some rail and subway lines from The Bronx, with some fancy interconnecting at the LIRR tubes (an underground replacement for the FDR is also involved). The rail line would go into Delancy/Kenmare/Centre St line, into Chambers St. The Broad-Nassau line would be diverted via Park Row and E B'way to some resolution out into Williamsburgh, maybe via the W Bridge, better via a new tube.
If you build such a thing, bringing down a couple of super-express subway lines is also sensible. Were you to bring super-express lines from the Bronx to a Midtown crosstown line and to a Downtown line, the 2nd Ave would not really need to go Downtown, and no one would care that's it's half built as a two-track system.
Getting them to Jersey is done better by the long-contemplated, long-unbuilt Bay Ridge branch tunnel across the harbor. They want this for freight, but passenger service, I think, would be more productive.
I think there is also a need for the freight tunnel though. However, why can't they build the tunnel similar the 63rd St tunnel...one level for the freight, and one level for the passengers. As for passengers, I believe it would be a very important tunnel to allow Brooklyn and LIRR passengers direct service to NEw Jersey. Freight should not be forgotten though. If the tunnel is built for commuter rail, the freight trains could share the tracks with the freight, so only a two track, one level tunnel would be needed. However, if it was to be for subway, you would need two levels or one level with three tracks.
My plan put four tracks across both rivers, Rush hour would have two lines for LIRR and two lines for NJT with a capacity far in excess of what Railroads would require.
Off peek each would only run to WTC and the other lines are free for freight movements. I'd contract that out to the New York & Atlantic rather than let CSX or NS into the tunnel. Heck they would't want to bother with electric Locomotives anyway, and they don't have any trackage on Long Island.
This route also makes a more direct connection to the Hell Gate Bridge.
Elias (Pushing for Progress!)
I think there is also a need for the freight tunnel though. However, why can't they build the tunnel similar the 63rd St tunnel...one level for the freight, and one level for the passengers.
Because the freight tunnel wants to go from Bay Ridge to Jersey City, while the passenger trains want to go from Meadowlands/Secaucus Transfer through midtown to downtown Brooklyn.
Two utterly different alignments. The 63rd Street LIRR tunnel level is at least within a mile or two of the LIRR Mainline and GCT, and that's two different routings carrying PASSENGERS. Any freight routing (from rail freight yard to rail freight yard) will go to/from utterly different places than any passenger routing.
"Because the freight tunnel wants to go from Bay Ridge to Jersey City,"
Who says they want to go to Bay Ridge? !!!
Some of them will want to go across the Hell Gate Bridge to CT.
Usimg My Routing they enter Long Island in the Sunnyside yard, and can go to the Bridge, or even to Bay Ridge faster than they could if the tunnel went to Bay Ridge directly. (Because you would have to turn or back your train from the portal to the riverside again.)
Yeah for My Plan!
Elias
Were you to bring super-express lines from the Bronx to a Midtown crosstown line and to a Downtown line, the 2nd Ave would not really need to go Downtown, and no one would care that's it's half built as a two-track system.
How quickly we forget that the very island of Manhattan has many residents of its own and that they are far more dependent on transit than the rest of the city. A two-track 2nd Avenue line would likely have insufficient capacity for its intra-Manhattan ridership alone.
My thoughts run to four super-express tracks from the Bronx, largely draining Mid- and Down-town bound passengers from the Lex. 125th/Lex trains would be greatly thinned of passengers. The Lex, plus the half-built two-track stubway would service East-side bound service from the UES.
I'm not saying this is what the 2nd Av subway should be, but if you could fill 150-300 feet outward into the East River, and bring four subway tracks under/over a replacement for the FDR, this would work.
The Lex, plus the half-built two-track stubway would service East-side bound service from the UES.
You obviously haven't seen the 6 train on the UES lately. The 2nd Avenue subway is needed primarily for the relief it will offer in Manhattan. Benefits to the Bronx are almost incidental.
Manhattan has some of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the country. They depend on a dense transit network.
So, David. Besmear yourself with blue woad and do battle with the MTA. It would help if New York had a female warrior a la Boadicea, but we don't, so just do the blue woad.
My East River fill project equates to a six track 2nd Ave subway.
"I'd provide maps, but that is beyond my expertise."
The maps that I make are easy.
I use Microsoft Streets and Trips 2002. They provide the maps, you can zoom in and out all you like. You can draw directly on the map, and save it, (as a map drawing, which unfortunately cannot actually display graphics outside of the S+T2002 program) You can select an area of your map and cut and paste it to your photo program and make a JPG of it there. I like making .GIFs out of them, because of the limited number of colors and so on, it makes a smaller file.
Try it, you will like it if you like drawing subway maps.
Elias
I kind of like your NYC 2020 vision. I only wish that the MTA would spend that kind of money to construct new lines.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Joralemon and Clark Street Tunnels are under-utilized. The lines using those tunnels can get pretty packed during rush hours in the peak direction. Montague by comparison isn't heavily used.
Your idea to bring the LIRR into lower Manhattan is a good one. Unfortunately, I don't think the city will ever build a LIRR lower Manhattan branch, thanks to politics.
I've got a couple of questions. What was the last date of Myrtle Ave. EL operations and what were the "Q" car numbers and the times of the last intervals operated? Also, how many excursions took place after the last day of regular service and what were their car numbers?
I will appreciate any and all information.
Just to get you going, the Myrtle was one of my FAVORITE "out of borough" experiences (Bronx boy) and as far as I could tell, the Q's were out there doing their thing right up to the end ... I *think* it was 1967 ... or somewhere in there, but those bad boys rocked and rolled and sat "Q"uietly at the station for open and closeup right to the end. What always made me conscious of the Q's was that unlike my favorite R1/9's, the compressors weren't kicking in every ten seconds. :)
I think it was 1969.
I think you are right.
The same weekend the Mets were squaring off against the Braves in the very first NLCS.
Bob: The last revenue train left Metropolitan Avenue at 11:38PM on October 3 and Bridge-Jay Streets at 12:13AM on October 4.It arrived back at Metropolitan Avenue at 12:43AM. The consist was (N)1616ABC and 1619CBA. It was followed by an empty back-up train consisting of 1610CBA and 1613ABC.
There were two post-abandonement fantrips. One on Saturday October 4 for the National ERA and one on Sunday, October 5 for the Trolley Museum of New York. The consists on both fantrips was 1616CBA and 1629 ABC.
I understand that a work train consisting of one or more IRT Lo-VM's ran on the el after closure to dismantle signals. This information comes from the late Roger Arcara. If it is correct it may have been the only time that steel cars,IRT Lo-V's no less ran on the Myrtle Avenue El south of Broadway.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi LarryRedbirdR33,
Thank you for the wealth of information concerning the "Q" cars on the Myrtle Avenue Line. I sincerely appreciate the details on the "Q" cars last intervals.
Yours truly,
Bklynsubwaybob
Bob: Glad to help.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>The consist was (N)1616ABC and 1619CBA. It was followed by an empty back-up train consisting of 1610CBA and 1613ABC<<
And I rode that last train out of Bridge-Jay Sts. Glad you cleared up that backup train. I saw it heading south and was wondering if that was the last train.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have to tell you a little more about that last trip on Mysrtle. I worked the line [by vacation relief bid] the last week or two it was in service. I was on one of the last trains as a motorman. The very last train returningin service had an old time conductor [John?]Cawley and a veteran motorman whose name escapes me. The regular crew scheduled for that run, can't remember the motorman [Griffin?] but Conducor Willie Paskewicz; Willie ws howling he was goig to be on the last train and refused to give up a scheduled trip [any other time a dop-out on the last trip would have been extremely desirable]. So the scheduled crew followed he last train in ervice, running light. The hand-picked old timers would be on the last revenue train hook or by crook. I had the 1616 set a cople of times that week and as it was a good set recommended it for the fantrips...I had the Saturday [Oct 4 I think] fantrip, oe Lyone had the Sunday one. They did use the 1616 set with was it the World's Fair color 1622...I can't recall. Excellent train.Back to the last night of service on my last run a controller didn't drop ou fast enough goig over the gap approachig Vanderbilt met bound and we blew a tractio motor...brought it into met with one live car [as most know the center car of the three was a trailer]. Think but not sure it was 1613. I don't have it written down and ithas beenalmost 33 yers, ccan't remember everythng. Anyone remember the 10 MPH slow order the last few days going past Ft. Greene Park? A truck hit the pillar and that section had to be shored up. Luckily the whole line wasn't shut down right then. Needless to say I'm happy to have served on the Q cars for part of my career; as a 12 year old id on 3rd Ave. in 1955 I'd never have dreamed I'dgrow up {did I really} to run them...off and on for two years. Lucky me. Too bed the oorigial IRT's weren't around another 10 years.
Hi Big Ed,
I lived on Adelphi St., just two blocks from Vanderbilt Ave. station. I rode the "Q" all my life especially when I attended Eastern District High School. I started working for the TA in August of 1970. Just missed my opportunity to work on the cars I loved so much. Anyhow, did you remember a Motorman by the name of Jimmy Laughin (I'm not sure I spelled his name correctly). I used to ride his train all the time, a really nice guy. When I would have occasion to be walking on my block towards Myrtle Av. he would wave to me. His C/R was an old timer by the name of Joe. I don't remember his last name. I also remember a C/R by the name of Barney. Another nice guy. When I became a C/R in 1973 we worked together on the Canarsie Line. I trust you probably knew Sambucini, a Motorman in the Eastern and Southern Divisions.
Let me know if you knew any of these guys. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Bob
Glad you had a chance to ride and railfan the Q's even if you didn't get to work them. The Conductor Joe you mentioned...wonder if tht was Cawley's name. He was one of thefew people left from when I started riding there in 1955. So were M/M Ed Lenihan and Tommy Byers. The only Barney I remember was therein my early days, Barney Dick who use to sell recycled watches. I remember Sambucini very well...went by his Italian first name, Enrico, sometimes called Sam. I remember him around Stilwell all the time.I was happy to be a part of things on that line to say the least. E-mail me if you need more info.
Thanks Big Ed for the information. Much appreciated. You didn't mention anything about a M/M by the name of Jimmy Laughin or maybe it was spelled Lafin. He was a real gentleman. When I graduated Sacred Heart School (grammar school) in 1963 I had a number of C/Rs and M/Ms sign my graduation book. The next time I post I will include their names to see if you know any of them. Oh, by the way, Sambucini is a real good friend of mine right to this very day. When he was a union rep in the UMD he helped me tremendously when I was wrongfully charged with incompetence and negligence involving an R-46 collision in Coney Island Yard back in Feb of 1977. He was able to prove through photographs and documentation that the collision was caused by computer error and not human error. A finer person would be extremely difficult to find. He'll always be #1 in my book.
Sincerely,
Bklnsubwaybob
Hi Big Ed,
I'm back again. I found my graduation signature book. I've found a few names that I'll pass on to you to see if you remember any of them. Motorman Albert Luken, a M/M by the name of Tom, could be Byers, M/M Frank Carlino, C/R Wm. Paskowitz also signed my book. He's the C/R that made the last trip 'lite'. Also, M/M J. Cartin. The "Q" cars were by far my favorites. I rode as much as I could when I could. And at 15 cents a ride, it was a bargain at any price.
My best to you,
Bklynsubwaybob
The only name I remember was Willie (though it was spelled Paskewicz, Polish style, but its been a long time.) I worked with him a few times. He worked thelast PM job as I recall rported 5:43 PM
And too bad their roofs had to be chopped in order to get to CIY.
Me again..guy's I'm sorry for all the typos on the original post..I tried but couldn't get back in where I could correct them but hope the story was worth the struggle.
Ed: It was a great story anyway. I missed the last run on the Myrtle Avenue line since I was in South Dakota with the Air Force. I did make it back a few weeks later for the last days of the old cars on the 3 Avenue El.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi Larry,
Where you, per chance, an employee of the TA? I worked for the TA in the capacity of Cars and Shops Shop Clerk, C/R, Motorman, Bus Operator (temporarily for two years at Fifth Ave. and Ulmer Park; allegedly a money saving move by the TA) back to Motorman and finally retiring as a Motorman Instructor (always hated the alledged non-sexist TA titles such as Motor Instructor or Train Service Supervisor or the like) I had a great career and plenty of stories to go with it. Just a little of myself.
Take care,
Bob
Bob: I work for Metro-North and before that Conrail. I started out as a towerman and later was a ticket agent. I also worked in the Command Center for several years. I grew up in NYC and spent many hours on the subways during the sixties. (I still spend many hours on the subway). My favorite rapid transit railroads are the IRT and PATH followed by the BMT (Don't tell #3 1/2 86 Street Fred.),and the IND.
I agree with you about these unisex titles. In the old days a motorman was a motorman and that meant something. Nowadays the person is a train operator, does that mean he places phone calls from various station. What about this operator nonsense for the buses? A surgeon operates, a driver drives.
AH" for the good old days when we called a spade, a spade.
Best Wishes,RedbirdR33
PS I can't e-mail you directly since my computer won't let me but my e-mail address is
RedbirdR33 @ hotmail.com
A conductor is still a conductor, right?
Steve: A conductor is still a conductor weither or not he works for the IRT or the New York Philharmonic.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can just imagine Leonard Bernstein perched on the step plates of a couple of R-1/9s or R-10s...:-)
Leonard Bernstein woulda been a friggin' 12-9! You can't be waving a stick when a train lurches, lest ye wanna be UNDER it. You needed BOTH hands for the grabirons. :)
Ah, but Lennie didn't always use a baton. He started to do so after hurting his back once.
He may have been a great conductor, but could he give two buzzes with both hands tied behind his back? I think not. :)
Lennie would have done a swivel hip and used his feet.:-)
>>> AH" for the good old days when we called a spade, a spade <<<
Those were not necessarily the good old days if you were not a good old boy.
Tom
In the old days a motorman was a motorman and that meant something. Nowadays the person is a train operator, does that mean he places phone calls from various station. What about this operator nonsense for the buses? A surgeon operates, a driver drives.
AH" for the good old days when we called a spade, a spade.
Hell yes! It's so much more natural saying driver, engineer or motorman than all this "Train Operator" and "Bus Operator" stuff... Even someone at the MTA thinks this:
"Make sure that you're standing next to a bus stop sign where the bus driver can see you."
(From the info on Long Island Bus - http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/libus/libinfo.htm)
Checking out this thread I had to post a picture of my souvenir from that day, 10/3/69. It wasn't the last train, it was much earlier in the afternoon but it was the last day. Everyone was taking souvenirs from the Q-cars, such as the last real leather straps. The trains probably were pretty bare late at night. As I was getting off I grabbed one of the wicker seats. I took it home on the "J" train, the LIRR to Hempstead, then the Hempstead Bus Comp bus (pre MSBA) to East Meadow. It was rush hour but at least I had a seat the whole way home. Sorry about the quality of the pic, I don't have a $1,000 digital, it was taken with a 15 year old poloroid 600!!! Click here to see it
P.S. I made it a web page so I could link it, angelfire doesn't allow remote loading so I couldn't link just the image.
What was assigned to the F line before the R-46s?
R44s and R38s
nevermind the preceding post
R38s i think
Prior to the R46's arrival in 1976, the F was made up of R38's, R40's, R32's and during rush hours, R6's.
how could i have forgotten the slants??????
There were some R40M as well.
Also lower-number (1300,low-1400) R-7 along with the R-6.
wayne
IIRC, for the R40M, the 4450 to 4499 group were on the E/F and the 4501 to 4549 group were on the EE/GG mostly.
I don't remember R38s on the "E" & "F" in 1976. I definately know that they operated on the "AA" & "B" at that time. Also, the R44s were definately on the "E" & "F"
R38s ran the F a while back ago when they first came out. I saw a pic of one in the museum not to mention the NYC SUBWAY CARS book. Also R38s Ran the E after september 11th when C train was suspended. PITKIN sent Jamaica R38s and i do remember watching a R38 pull off from UNION TURNPIKE SAYING E TO JAMAICA CENTER!!! this happens just about everytime the C is suspended. the first time was when the C was out for a month and the E couldnt go to WTC because of that switch being replaced. they sent R38s to the E line and when september 11th happened and the few days after when E went to euclid, there were R38s on the E again.
I know that the R38s ran on the "E" and "F" when they first arrived in NY, but I was talking about the year 1976. Anyway, thank you for the information about what happened after 9/11. It is really appreciated. I wonder if anybody was able to get any pictures of the 38s on the "E" AFTER 9/11.
I know that when the "C" service was reinstated after the 9/11 incident, phase two R32s (the ones that whistle) were operating on the "A" and the "C".
Both the R-38s and slant R-40s made their debut on the E and F lines. IIRC the R-38s were supposed to go to the D initially, but were pressed into service on the E and F lines in August of 1966 when the Jamaica Yard Crisis hit.
I'm going on what I've heard on here and pics on this website from the time in question. I was just 4 in '76 and outside the J train, I have no experience or memory of anything else.
dont forget the R44. The R 32 wernt regulars on the F per say like they were on the D,B and N lines,and by then the N was mostly R46.Didnt the F lose their R40's to the A then?
R40's, R44's, R10's in 1980/81, R32's, R38's.
R68's were also assigned to the F for a time in the late 1980's.
R46, R68, R40S, R38, R32 and Pre-War R Units.
Unless I'm wrong, the F did have some R44's before they were moved to the A and D.
When the R44's were new, they were split 3 ways: a bunch for Queens, a bunch for the A and a bunch for the D. When the R46's came out the Queens R44's were split between the A and D. R44's returned to Queens when the R46's were put on restricted duty due to the truck fiasco. Eventually, some R46 cars got R44 trucks temporarily, while virtually all the R44's were put into storage due to reliability problems. Due to a nasty derailment at Kings Hwy (Brighton) in which an R44 car almost knocked down the old tower, the R44's were pulled off the D permanently. Brighton residents along E.16th St. all along bitched about the cars claiming they caused excessive vibrations. The Kings Hwy incident and the restricting of R46's came around the same time.
If anyone is interested the split of the R44 fleet was as follows:
ALL FORMER #s:
100-259 for QUEENS ("F" and "E" secondary)
260-335 for the "D".
336-399 for the "A".
wayne
Yep, I remember my first ride on an R-44, August 1972 on the F out of CI, lead car 160.
BTW, does anyone remember when some R-44s had carpeting? I recall riding one on the D at Christmastime in 1973. Seems this was short-lived--I was living in Illinois at the time, when I came back to NY the next summer, the carpet was gone.
There was one 8 car train built with carpeting. I don't have the car numbers, but I remember riding it on the D. I don't think it lasted too long.
IIRC that idea-one carpeted train of R44..'s was another of Mayor Lindsay's silly ideas. Carpeting on a subway train? NYC in the 1970's? Even the biggest bleeding heart mayor should have known better. I never did catch a trip on it.
I was on the MTA's website when I stumbled on a plan to extend th 42 street S to either Jamaica or Lower manhatthan. If you had a say in this where would it go? Personally I would like to see some extra subway service around Trinity place.
For more info heres the webpage http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/lmas/problemsandconepts.html
Well there's one thing that I do know. If you extended the line, you couldn't call it a shuttle anymore.
That would be a tough one, given it would have to in some way run through the mezzanine level of the Grand Central stop (if you re-established the connection to the No. 6 local tracks on Park Ave. South you might be able to get away with only running the uptown track through the southern end of the mezzanine level, but that would still block of direct mezz access to the shuttle's 42nd St. platform and require a stairs/escallator and ADA-required elevator to connect the platform with the rest of the Grand Central stop.
Oh, and the shuttle platform would have to be lengthened about 300 feet at the west end of the Grand Central stop and the east end at Times Square to handle 10 car trains to justify any such connection to the rest of the IRT system.
Maybe I'm not being creative enough, but isn't the point of the shuttle to quickly transport people between two points, like GCT and TS? If it had a whole route to do, it would be much less efficient at its job.
It might make sense to extend the shuttle out to meet the 2nd Ave subway, if one ever exists.
Start digging for the north part of the 2nd ave sub. Then start talking!
One of the stubway alternatives is to terminate the 2nd Ave as a west-turning stub on 42nd St., as close into to GCT as possible, with tranfers to the 4/5/6/7/S
Well, that's one step in rebuilding the 42nd St. corridor.
Read it again (I just read it). It mentions the possibility of operating a NEW "shuttle" service between Grand Central and lower Manhattan. It says NOTHING about the existing 42nd Street Shuttle.
David
LIRR Atlantic Branch Conversion to Rapid Transit.
This is also listed in that link. I don't see the point to this. Doesn't the LIRR Atlantic branch run almost parallel to the AC Fulton subway? Why would they need two rapid transit lines right next to each other? I could understand if they wanted to convert the Montauk branch to rapid transit, because it would serve a whole area not currently served by rail. What am I missing here?
(LIRR Atlantic Branch Conversion to Rapid Transit. This is also listed in that link. I don't see the point to this. Doesn't the LIRR Atlantic branch run almost parallel to the AC Fulton subway?)
Most people agree there is no point to this -- except to create a "super-express" to cut commute times for those further out.
"Most people agree there is no point to this -- except to create a "super-express" to cut commute times for those further out. "
Correct. You cannot extend or buiod more subway lines further out into Queens, since the present lines, trunk lines, and crossings are running at overcapacity now.
Three, four, maybe more lines could join this ROW at Jamaica Center or Broadway Junction, and then run non-stop to Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. (OUtlying lines have a much lower tph since it is also a lower population density area.
Elias
My own thoughts are to flatten the East New York area (Vermont to
Chauncy, Atlantic to the cemetery), and redevelop it as something other than the slummy semi-industrial area it is. I'd realign all the lines into one whopping big, exquisitely logical, wonderfully convenient station. The LIRR would terminate here, with the remainder of the Atlantic Av r.o.w. being converted to super-express subway service (serviced by a new tube into Manhattan).
My own thoughts are to flatten the East New York area (Vermont to
Chauncy, Atlantic to the cemetery), and redevelop it as something other than the slummy semi-industrial area it is.
We've seen how well grandiose urban renewal projects turn out in NYC. Think Arverne and Edgemere.
I keep them in the back of my head. What got flattened on the Rockaway, tho', was mostly beach shack, very primitive one-story stuff that got winterized.
In the back of my head, I want to move the City Council out to ENY junction. Return those heritage city-owned-buidlings (e.g., the Sun Building) to the tax rolls, and move the parasitical City Council and their aides out to East New York.
You're a thoughtful fellow, aren't you?...What about the people who live there now?
They are mostly poor. They mostly don't vote. They mostly don't care. As for those who do care, do vote and may be poor, well, you get very nice to them. It's politics.
Perhaps they're poor and perhaps they don't vote, but I assure you that they care. We all see what happened to Robert Moses when he used that tactic a few too many times.
Exactly. But they don't usually vote.
If the purpose is to server outlying areas, then I would think commuter rail would make more sense than subway. The way I see it is subway for dense city space, Commuter rail for more distant suburbs. Maybe some of this land falls in a grey area, but it still doesn't make much sense to me. I think a downtown rail terminal that both LIRR and NJT use would be great, if they dig their own tunnels and use their own track. Maybe on the old WTC site they should rebuild the old Penn Station. That is not nearly as nutty as some of these ideas.
LIRR Atlantic Branch Conversion to Rapid Transit.
This is also listed in that link. I don't see the point to this. Doesn't the LIRR Atlantic branch run almost parallel to the AC Fulton subway? Why would they need two rapid transit lines right next to each other? I could understand if they wanted to convert the Montauk branch to rapid transit, because it would serve a whole area not currently served by rail. What am I missing here?
Two things: Some people in LIRR management are rumored to want to abandon service on the Atlantic Branch. Some people think that it would be nice to screw the hicks from the sticks by stealing their commuter line and turning it into a NYC Transit line providing city residents with an express ride at subway prices.
All told, not a great idea, IMHO. If we take away their commuter trains, even more of them will clog our streets with their cars.
A set of R-33's are inside a secured area of the NYPD's Special Forces & Aviation Division at Floyd Bennett Field.
Mr.T, Hartbus Al, heypaul and I saw them at a distance yesterday during our journey over to the Bus Rodeo.
However, with the weather being so nice I biked out to Floyd Bennett earlier today where I met up with heypaul and we were able to get a closer look at the Redbirds, as well as the 'Flying Fishbowl'. See 'Other Side of the Tracks' for more details.
Apparently, the cars are being used as part of Anti-terrorist training.
Yeppppp!
Saw all of that while I was at the Bus Roadeo. I got pictures. To see them, e-mail me at carlwal@hotmail.com and I will be glad to send them to all who want to see...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT (where those cars once ran)
Does anyone have access to (or know about) any magnetic levitation lines anywhere in the U.S.? (or elsewhere)
See MAGLEV for Old Dominion University thread.
Railfan Pete,
Shanghai China is building a TRANSRAPID line from downtown to its airport. Go to www.monorails.org and follow MAGLEV links for more info.
Are there construction pictures of progress of restoring subway station at ground zero? last seen were of damage just after 9-11.
There are a few on Harry Beck's page
www.nycrail.com
did they reverse this policy because lately none of the c/rs and t/os have been wearing no vests.
t/o's and c/r's are no longer obligated to wear safety vests while operating their train in customer service.
t/o's and c/r's are no longer obligated to wear safety vests while operating their train in customer service.
Why the change? The vest policy was one of the rare bureaucratic decrees that actually made sense.
Why did it make sense?
Peace,
ANDEE
Helps allow people to recognize crewmembers. Also increases safety when they have to walk the tracks (in the event of a cord pulling or just going thru the yard).
We still wear it on the track or in yards just not opertaing in revenue service. You are supposed to wear it when walking the 10 ft from the dispatchers office to the cab though.
We do have uniforms for visability and with the vests supervisors had a hard time sneaking up on us.
It's June they are getting uncomfortable. The uniform contract is up anyway so they can add a reflective stripe to the next round of jackets and hats
hehe, in London, all tube personnel wear neon greet reflective jackets. As do the police and sanitation men and airport workers and firefighters and traffic men and construction workers....
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
I would also add you summers are a quite a bit more mild than ours are.
UM, if you can't recognize crew members that are actually operating a train without a safety vest, one wonders why that addition would help?
Birds are attracted to shiny objects, maybe geese are attracted to bright reflective vests?
Why did it make sense?
Peace,
ANDEE
"The vest policy was one of the rare bureaucratic decrees that actually made sense."
Hey, who are you, a Vest Maker?
did they reverse this policy because lately none of the c/rs and t/os have been wearing no vests.
If they're still wearing vests, then what policy was reversed?
They're not wearing vests while on the trains. That's the change in policy. If a crewmember has to leave the train (to go to the roadbed, for example), he or she has to put on the vest.
David
You always had to wear a vest if you had to go down on the ground, that was in the rule book.
Methinks he was picking on the double negative.
Maybe the TA figured out how totally illogical the original rule was. After all, if a t/o or c/r has to wear a safety vest at all times while on duty, then what is the purpose of a uniform? Furthermore, the TA instructs to all the importance of a clean uniform. That plastic safety vest gets mighty dirty in a hurry and there is no way to wash it, it has to be replaced.
The vest policy was changed due to a letter written by a shop steward. It brought up a lot of safety concerns such as the vest getting caught when crossing from cab to cab.(happened to me a couple of times and it was un nerving)And the fact it was a pull-choking hazard while c/r had to observe platforms. Th official word is we still have to wear them when we exit the cab ,but that was thrown in just so it looked like the ta brass won.
As for the vest making the crews more visible.that is not a problem.I was going to work one day and decided to take a nap i guy WOKE ME UP SAID "IM SORRY BUT COULD YOU TELL ME HOW TO GET TOO....." I was so mad but end up helping him out anyway.
The issue of the vest making crews more visible seems silly to me. That is the function of a uniform. If the current uniform is not performing that function, then for goodness' sake switch to one that does.
Mvh Tim, who always has to be careful how he acts on the (Stockholm) subway while in uniform....
Does anyone have up-to-date information on the status of the PATH Class K amd MP-51 Fleet? The last information that I have is from July 1999, at that time there were still some 29 cars on the property, most of which were in work service. How many cars remain and have any been earmarked for museum collections? Thanks
Larry, RedbirdR33
I just found a great site for NJT photos. I looked across the "Pics Gallery" page and found some good photos of the ALP-46 and Comet V's, both interior photos.
Click on the corresponding link of your choice:
Engineer's control panel of the new ALP-46
Center Aisle of the Equipment Room of the new ALP-46
The New Comet V
Engineer's Control Panel of the New Comet V
Comet V Interior
New Improved Seating - Comet V
7221 and 7820 meet at SWIFT
Can anyone tell me where that last photo is? (Where SWIFT is?)
Explore the website at its domain. It is REALLY interesting for NJT fans.
SWIFT is the junction of the Kearney Connection and the NEC.
It looks like the Comet V's will have jump seats where the handicapped spaces are. This seems to be a good idea seat availability wise, but that empty area was always popular for baggage storage.
Thanks to Railfan Pete for providing a link to such great photos and a great website, http://www.ble373.org Thanks also to the Brotherhood!
I'm not certain of this, but I think I see taller windows in the photos of new Comet 5 and the LIRR M-7s. The shallow windows on Horizon cars, the MN Bombardiers, and other Comets have been a nuisance to anyone trying to look across the car and get a view of what is out the other side. Large windows help the passengers (in finding station names, etc.) and make the ride more enjoyable. Joe on the Babylon local.
Very interesting! Longitudal seating on a commuter rail car!
Some LIRR and Metro North M-whatever cars have one lone longitudinal seat near the door.
I also just remembered the LIRR has that in the handicapped area of the C3s.
But longitudinal seating is alien to many NJT riders, I wonder how they'll take it?
The rebuilt Comet 2's also have a small section of logitudinal seating. I worked those cars on the Raritan Valley Line, and the people who sat in those particular seats looked like "rookie" riders, while the "regulars" stayed with the forward-facing seats.
The MBTA Commuter Rail's BTC-1C (200-series) coaches (recently rebuilt) have logitudinal fold-up seats on both sides, both ends, to improve ADA capacity. Here's the commuter rail roster.
On that exterior shot of the Comet V in the shop building. Is the body stainless steel or aluminum like the older push pulls. It seems to shiny to be aluminum to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
On that exterior shot of the Comet V in the shop building. Is the body stainless steel or aluminum like the older push pulls. It seems to shiny to be aluminum to me.
They are indeed stainless steel.
"The Comet V body shells will be manufactured at ALSTOM's stainless steel plant in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and then shipped to the company's facility in Hornell, N.Y. for final assembly. Delivery of the cars is expected to begin in the third quarter of 2001, eighteen months after the notice to proceed."
Do Subways (NYCT, esp. the new ones) are the cars stainless steel?
NJT's contract was worth $232.9 million for up to 230 push-pull commuter cars. I think it can get expensive for thousands of subway cars!
Anyone else think that the interior of the Comet V has kind of a retro appearance? Something about the large windows and lack of loud colors. I like it, in any event.
Are the Comet Vs even in service? Where will they run?
No. Completed delivery is to be completed by 2003. Two of the cars were supposed to be testing on the NEC in August 2001. Guess they had it as a "covert operation." The Comet V's are most likely paired up with ALP-46's. There is a chance of them on the NEC but I don't know of the other lines.
"NJ TRANSIT is purchasing up to 230 push-pull rail cars, of which 200 are required to replace the Comet I fleet and certain Comet II cars. The remainder will allow for ridership growth stemming from the Secaucus Transfer, Montclair Connection and other services. At the request of Metro-North Commuter Railroad, up to 30 cars (5 push-pull control cars and 25 push-pull trailers) have been included in the option for Metro-North who will reimburse NJ TRANSIT for the cost of the cars.
Here is a little description about the Comet V:
130 new single-level push-pull commuter rail cars are being purchased with an option for an additional 100 cars for a total of 230 cars. This includes 50 cab control cars with 110 seats, 80 trailer cars with 118 seats and an option for 53 additional cab cars and 47 additional trailer cars.
The Comet V cars will be the first cars to be totally controlled by the IEEE 1473 network trainline. Cab cars, new electric and diesel locomotives will have fully integrated controls and diagnostics. All train systems diagnostics will have a wireless connection to the NJ TRANSIT maintenance system. The Comet V cars can be configured in any direction within a train. All Comet V systems can be monitored from any car in a train. The Comet V cab cars will be equipped with the Positive Train Stop (PTS) system."
Just had to laugh. Who are they trying to kid with the picture of one person sitting on the longtitudinal seats, the rest being covered by assorted clothes & baggage?!
Get real!
The photo should have every seat occupied, but you couldn’t tell this because there would be wall-to-wall people in front of the camera!
Here’s hoping.
John,
Still waiting for a 22:30 train southbound out of Newark…
While travelling on the Franklin Ave shuttle Sat. (didn't feel like taking shuttle bus bet. PP and Atlantic Ave) noticed that the typical side destination signs in the car had been removed and replaced with a fixed sign for Franklin Ave Shuttle and its terminals. This was an R-68 car #29??. I wonder why.
I guess that car won't be used on any other line any time soon!
The nine Franklin Avenue Shuttle R-68s (2916-2924) are the only R-68s not converted to four-car units. They're a dedicated fleet.
David
Cars 2916 to 2924 were not linked into 4 car sets. Those cars are dedicated to the Franklin Ave. shuttle. The side sign boxes are being uses as spares for the other R68/68A. Therefore, the fixed signs were substituted for the original sign boxes.
I was just looking at my 1964 subway map (Wishing the Myrtle were still running) In those days Metropolitan Avenue was serviced 24/7 my the Myrtle Avenue el, with a part time Myrtle-Chambers run.
Apparently the only Nassau/Broad Street train ro use the Montague was the part time TT (ie Nassau Loop). The map shows no Williamsburg trains entering the tunnel.
Also, that map shows NO ROUTE LETTERS or NUMBERS! The lines are labled, but not the separate routes.
Like I said, Interesting.
Still, it is one of my favorite subway maps.
Elias
Elias,
Yeah, I remember those maps. The BMT routes were green, IND was red and IRT was black. That was simple enough to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yup, I have a replica '59 map in the black/green/red scheme from the museum in 1990. Among it's quirks is the showing of thru service on the Culver shuttle to Ditmas (before it was relegated to a shuttle) and the extra 15 cent fare which was required on the IND to go south of Howard Beach.
I also have that map from the transit museum. I bought it about 1991 or so, along with a huge "current" map (current in 1991 anyway). It's the kind that would fit into the long wide ad squares in subway stations.
Prior to the mid 1960's, southern and eastern division BMT routes never mixed. Only the section from Chambers to Broad along Nassau St saw regular service by trains of both divisions.
The Bairghton and 95th St had specials that ran over the bridge one way and through the tunnel the other, as well. (95th used the bridge peak direction, and the Brighton the owther way around, but carried no passengers over the bridge).
Also, there were a few trains that did go to Chambers from the south and lay up at ENY, and maybe one that went in service all the way or something. Others have these details better.
The Brighton and 95th St had specials that ran over the bridge one way and through the tunnel the other, as well. (95th used the bridge peak direction, and the Brighton the owther way around, but carried no passengers over the bridge).
Also, there were a few trains that did go to Chambers from the south and lay up at ENY, and maybe one that went in service all the way or something. Others have these details better.
The BMT Eastern Division routes nad no names or numbers while the Southern Division routes had letters. Even my mid-60s Hagstrom's map follows this trend. Wish I hadn't completely blacked out a few of the Eastern Division routes...
With the Blue Line cars in Boston being replaced, and the Orange Line questions in question of whether they will be replaced or overhauled, it seems that the MBTA's rolling stock doesn't last nearly as long as the MTA fleets, with the exception of the PCC Trolley cars that are running on the Mattapan Line. The Orange and Blue Line cars were purchased in the mid to late 70s, so they will maybe have 30 years on the tracks. The 01500 to 01700 Red Line cars are scheduled to be replaced within the decade, meaning that the 01500s and 01600s will see 30 years, and the 01700s will only have 20 years before being scrapped.
Meanwhile, with a few exceptions (like the R-44), is it just me, or do most MTA subways last 40+ years? Any ideas on why this happens? -Nick
We had a few fleets that didn't hold up too well:
R16 (1954-1986 6300s, 1954-1977 6400's)
R21 (1957-1988)
R22 (1957-1987)
R27/R30 (1961-1992, with many not making it to that mark)
BMT MS (1936-1961)
wayne
Correction re. 6400 series R16 - they were MOTHBALLED in 1977 and some did manage to return to service at later dates; all were gone by 1987.
wayne
You might as well have included the R17 which were little different from R16,21, and 22 which show short lived.Why they got a few more years in I don't know. None of those types impressed me as a motorman..the Westinghouse ones OK but nothing special. GE's poor.As for the MS types they were unloaded with the delivery of R27/30 due to being completely non-standard. Luckily the more-standard but still smaller fleet D types lasted until the R32's arrived.Praise the force! Then there were the hopeless case R11's which went thru a rebuild about 1964 [?] but never were any good, before or after.
So Thats a few fleets that didn't do well. With the MBTA, I've only seen the PCC Trolleys last 40+ years. The majority of NYC's equipment has held up nicely. -Nick
In Philly, the Broad Street line operated cars from the 20s when the line was built until they replaced them with the current Orange trains in the 80s. The original fleets lasted 60+ years, but they were virtually falling apart when they were replaced.
The Blue Line 0600's (with bodies made of corten steel) are literally rotting away in the ocean air of Orient Heights yard. The Orange Line 01200's, by contrast, seem to be holding up well and are probably capable of many more years of service with the proper maintenance. The Red Line's 01500 and 01600 classes have already logged 32 years of service, and will probably be close to four decades in service by the time they are retired. The 01700's will probably not last as long, since they will likely be retired with the older cars (which they MU with) rather than keep an orphan fleet of 58 cars running.
The MBTA loves new technology, and will take advantage of every opportunity they can to buy new cars, rather than keep older fleets running. The rebuilt PCC's on the Arborway line and converted Budd RDC coaches on the commuter rail were taken out of service before they were fully depreciated. And the 01400's on the Red Line were basically made unworkable by the need to retrofit these cars with cab signals. Imagine trying to convert the R32's or R36's to cab signal operation - you get the picture.
Jim D.
I was taking photos on the bridge over CS Depot and Corona Yard, and boy oh boy what do I see on one of the tracks near the garbage platform?
mew
curiousity will probably end up killing the cat.
If a train doesn't first.
The cat is probably smarter than most of the people on this board, and KNOWS what to avoid.
Let sleeping do-... cats lie, and watch them die...
Here kitty kitty kitty.
You guys are terrible!
We're the cat's meow.
Sorry, I had to say that.
I agree....
I happen to be a cat owner....one is 11 years old (and has been with me since 10 weeks old) and the other is six years old, been here three -- adopted himf rom the cat shelter where my wife and I volunteer, he kept gettign adopted and brought back but always wanted tobe around us when we were helping at the shelter. And I recently had to put my 17 year old cat down as his kidneys were failing.
Sometimes I wish I could see some of the people in here put downjust for lack of a brain.
Glad to see there are some cat people here. I have an 11 year old calico myself, I adopted her at about 1 year of age. She is the nicest cat, follows me everywhere, the minute I sit down, she jumps in my lap. And she still likes to chase her tail!
I felt so sorry to see that poor little guy in the train yard, I if found him, I'd bring him home.
It is not funny that the poor animal is there is that dangerous place and most likely will be killed by a train. I don't know how people can find humor in that situation.
I have a tabby cat that was rescued from the Weschester Yard in The Bronx at 6 weeks old. His name is Subway and is now 3 years old. Whenever I take him to the vet he is always real quiet on the train. I think he is afraid of me leaving him there.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't find leaving a stray cat in a train yard to be funny. I'd like to bring him (her?) myself. But the 2 cats I have don't like each other now. And they'll both turn against a new one.
But I'm sure this cat isn't exactly helpless. Between whatever the people at the yard/depot leave for him. The run of the grounds in and outside of TA property to fulfill a cat's need to be a hunter and he knows a place where they can safely sleep at night, That cat is probably doing very well.
I hope what you say is true about people looking after the cat at the yard and I'm glad there are a bunch of "cat" people here on the board.
I'm just sensative about cats in what could be dangerous places. When I got married, my wife decided my cats needed to "be free and smell the grass" the first month she moved in with me, two of my cats had been run over and killed. I have always felt guilty about not keeping them inside.
I lost a cat last year like that. He had run of my backyard. One day he discovered there was a world beyond it. So he would go exploring the neighborhood. One day he was crossing the road and he didn't notice a car was coming until a moment before he was hit. I would like to think stray cats at the yard are more aware of what goes on around them.
Cats that are used to the great out doors are more careful. Cars are not something that is programed into thier nature.
Our cats live (all year 'round) in our courtyard. Unless someone leaves a door open, they cannot get out.
I have built a wonderful little cathouse in a window well, with a bit of a heating system, and a heated water dish. In the winter I feed them in there, and they have a "throne room" (for thier litter box). In the summer, I feed them outside, and they can use the garden for their business.
Cats are special people.
Elais
I used to hate cats until a neighbor's cat adopted me when I was 20. I called him Bruce and we became very attached to each other. He would actually run up to me when I came home from school, lie on his stomach so I could pet his belly. When he was hit by a car and killed I was devastated. You can become very attached to cats.
>>>...was killed I was devastated.<<<
Yea, I know what you're saying. The cat I had before "Subway" died in a fire of smoke inhalation, (I wasn't home or I'd be in the same boat) I had her for 10 years, I was devastated also.
OMG, look, I'm talking to Sea Beach Fred. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Good to see I'm off your drop=dead list. Let's keep a diologue going. I want to end any misgivings that have hurt our relationship.
Cool with me.
Peace,
ANDEE
That cat looks sort of like the one that I saw last week at Jamaica yard and like a cousin to the one in 207 Yard. I wonder if someone got rid of a litter of strays on transit properties.
Its a Felid!
Let's call it: MetroCat.
Good idea. He (she?) gets into the system by swiping thru the fence.
...and where does this leave the 207st Yard Cat?
Somewhere, in the 207th St Yard, I would imagine.
Could always call that one "A" Cat
a nasty stray alley cat??........sooooooooo what ??
we have so many strays the trapping cages are being put out to catch em !!!
Strays live all over the system. I saw an entire "pack" of cats living in the Sutphin/Archer Ave complex.
They may be benificial, keeping the mouse/rat population under control.
True, but that doesn't mean they're good signs. If that cat is wandering around here, it may mean a family is near by. What happens if they get more populous than ever!? Ok, I got too far...
No, you didn't get too far. You made a VERY good point.
If only people would spay/neuter their pets and keep them in their houses, the stray population wouldn't get out of control.
"If only people would spay/neuter their pets and keep them in their houses, the stray population wouldn't get out of control."
That is not a *stry* cat.
It is an employee of the rodent management department.
Elias
There are plenty of stray cats where I live. They don't get in the way, they're cute and for some reason they manage to remain healthy and well fed.
I'd rather have cats than rats. It being a formerly industrial waterfront area, the cats are an excellent deterrent.
Works fine, until kitty runs into something bigger than he is. 8-0
ah...Ah...AH...CHOO!!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've spent the past few days riding on r142a's on the 6 line. Sorry folks Kawasaki did'nt do that great of a job that a lot of people on this board have been talking about. The brake squealing is horrible, and people say the r142's are bad. Then when one of the R142a's pulled into 3rd ave, it sat there making horrible loud noises. Like as though there was an air hose lose or something, sorry folks I'm not nitpicking but I think the 142's have taken enough bashing by people that say the 142a's are better.
I've noticed that too, but I didn't bother to post about it before. This one of the bad points the R142A's. I have no idea why they screech so loudly like the Redbirds now do? They've only been here for about a year and a half!
Yes, R142A, a year and a half... how about the R142?
About the same amount of time, I think.
If you count the times it's been taken into and out of service, the R142A has been in longer and more consistant.
Think about it, Kawasaki has produced better cars than its counterparts. The R62 and R62A comparisons have shown that when first in service, the R62 had very little breakdowns, and the R62A had lots of problems, like the R142 now. The R68A also shows more reliability than the R68's which were built by ANF Industrie (France), Westinghouse, and Althstrom.
It is my understanding that Kawasaki provided blueprints to Bombardier to manufacture the R142 trainsets...that means 'under license' because Kawasaki didn't think they could provide 'at price in time.' While almost identical, the Kawasaki displays higher quality control in assembly, utilizing the same parts of same vendors with similar problems. Word out is that the R160 may have Fuji door closures and that R142s just might be revamped. CI Peter
Some R142As make this horrible noise every time the train stops. Must start when the train goes about 3 to 5 MPH and goes until the train stops. It is even worse than on the Redbirds. At least my Rohrs down here don't do that because it destroys the musical sound of the brakes. What is that noise caused by anyway?
Braking in R142s and R142As is almost identical save software. The Tread Brake Units are the same...perhaps the difference in truck design can attribute to the 'noise.' CI Peter
To me the R142's are better than the A's. Even though the A's are better looking the R142's are more silent and provides a smoother ride.
So far, in the area of reliability, the R-142As (Kawasaki) are winning, hands-down.
March 2002 Mean Distance Between Failures (MDBF):
R-142 (410 cars at that time): 39,526 miles
R-142A (400 cars at that time): 144,620 miles
David
Forgive me if this is an old thread but has anyone noticed this. They are at the northbound at Jay St. and I know I have seen them somewhere else also. Is this another colossal waste or a R110B return?
The boards are on the the A,C, and D Lines. Also, the Brighton Line.
And they've been there since the cars were about to arrive, ten years ago. The cars are listed as "unavailable," but they haven't been retired and they certainly haven't been scrapped, so there's a chance they can come back. Therefore, there's no point in taking them down.
David
I saw both groups of cars on the Redbird trip on 5/26. Both were in 207th Street Yard. The 6 car set had its signs rolled to (A) and the 3 car set was signed to NOT IN SERVICE.
Sorry about that original post. I should have explained more. I am talking about brand NEW monitors (TV screens). Not the C/R (blue) boards. I saw another new monitor at Euclid Ave. on the southbound. They both (Jay St.) haven't been finished yet. Thanks.
So....
THIS hasn't been asked before:
What's everyone's favorite line/car model combination?
In other words, when you think of a line, what specific car model represents it best (in your opinion, naturally).
You can have more than a few :)
Mine are:
R-16's on the J (natch)
White-painted mixed consist trains (R-14/R-15/R-21 and higher) on the No. 2 White Plains Road line. (circa 1981, 82, 83)
R-10s on the CC in MTA Silver and Blue
R-40s on the E and F
R-46s on the GG
R27/30s in MTA Silver and Blue on the Brighton M (mid-late 70s)
maroon R-17s on the No. 4....
World's Fair cars on the Bronx 3rd Av. line (149th to Gun Hill Rd.)
Jeez, is my list 70s and 80s or WHAT?
:)
I say R143 on the Q. Sweeeeeeeeetttttttt....
-J!
There are R-143s on the Q?
Since when, I didn't realize they were there...
Now, that would be a cool idea. But I guess not. Seriously, that wasn't real. I must've been imagining things.
The Q has always been my fave line, and well, it's the first NYC line I was on, so I have to say the R68s on the Q. (Or was it the R42's? I can't remember...)
J-Train, I can't alter your list to much. It's exactly how I remember alot of those lines from when I was kid! Man the R27-30's on the M - perfect - I guess I will move the list a little to the 80's and put the R46's on the F. (I can't picture the F with anything else). You can throw in an R16 on the L, The N - the R68's, the slants on the B. The R10's definitly on the C - I remember riding them to Rockaway Park when I was a teenager. There's nothing better than an R10 with all the windows and doors open, and the little fans running, clanking down the Rockaway line looking forward to a day at the beach.....
Thanks GP38, you answered completely in the spirit of the question..... :)
I would love to live the days 1977-1982 when you had a variety on practically every line. For example, R40s, R10s, and R38s on the "A", R32s, R40s on the "AA", "B", "D", R10s, R32s and R40s on the "CC". These are just a few I can think of.
I completely agree...my favorite era in NYC subway history.
R27/30/32/42 and dont forget the classics, R6-9 on the Easteren Division QJ/KK/M=early 70's for me.
When I think of the Canarsie Line the BMT Standards automatically come to mind.
Also forget redbirds, when I think of the "7" line I automatically think of the blue & white worlds fair cars, some with state names along the side.
I love my F with R46s! i dunno how i would like the F without them altho i do like R32 Fs as well. but its just something about R46 with F that goes with White on rice
I couldn't agree more. I can't imagine the F without the 46's. In addition, the D seems synonymous with R68 also.
And I can't imagine the F without the R-40 Slants with the big "F" up front - like this.
Wow, that's a great shot. They must've been fairly new then because all the chains and bars are not on them yet. I've seen other photos of the slants on the F, but never seen or ridden them there. I always picture them on the B, and of course I've ridden them before and after their rebuilding on the J/M/L lines.
I agree, Bob..when I think of the F, I think of R-40s...way back in 1970 or thereabouts, when I was 6 (and already a big subway freak) I remember riding in my father's Volkswagen somewhere in Queens and seeing brand-new R-40s and saying "WOW!!! What are THOSE??"
Much different from the R-21s and R-15s up in the Bronx :)
I remember original R1-9 on the F and the D-Culver prior to that.
I can just picture the R6 pulling out of Neptune and going past the Banamo Candy factory on the way to West 8th(Lower Level).
Neptune? You mean Van Sicklen, don't you. My grandmother lived right next to that station in the Warbasse co-ops and we always used to walk to Coney Island under the el. I remember hearing the great R1-9 sounds overhead. I do not remember the Bonamo factory though. By the way, on the extreme right hand side of the picture is an R1-9, but its probably an "E" as they were usually on the outside tracks at 179.
Hey what's with all the red lights down the side of that train? I count 4 of them down the length of the train. Dead motors? Doors not secured? Should the train really be running with all those red lights?
The doors are open and it's in the station....It's hard to see the doores open, but look at the platform, you can see the lights from the doorways.
my mistake, didn't notice that. i was under the assumption that the train was in motion. heh. my bad.
I figured that, I thought the same thing at first......
Q's on the Myrtle Ave. Line
Standards on the Canarsie Line
Triplexes on the Brighton Express.
R-10's (in the original 2-tone gray/orange stripe) and turquoise/white with white racing stripe on the A.
R-16's on the J
R-17's on the 6
R-33WF and R-36WF (in the blue/white scheme) on the 7
R-40 Slants on the F
Also forget redbirds, when I think of the "7" line I automatically think of the blue & white worlds fair cars, some with state names along the side.
However, the 2 to me is R-33's in their current Redbird paint scheme. Too bad there are only a few left.
A few that are seeing limited use.............
I'm planning on going out tomorrow and taking my last Redbird 2 ride. They do run middays, yes? How many trains are left?
Yeah, best bet is during rush hours............
Blue/White World's Fair Design on the Flushing 7 during 1964/1965.
I liked the Slants on the "F", especially without the A/C and the soot all over the place (even inside the lights!).
Also worthy of mention:
R10 on the "A"
4400 series Slants on the "L" - so out of place, but so right at the same time.
R16 on the "EE" and "GG".
R38s on the "A".
wayne
R40 slants on the Q
R36s on the 7
Among the other good ones:
R38s on the A
Redbirds on the 2 Express
Redbirds on the 4/5
My all time favorite:
BMT D-Types on the West End Express
Redbirds on the Scrap line :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> What's everyone's favorite line/car model combination? <<<
Gate cars on the Myrtle Line
Standards on the Brighton Line
D types on the Sea Beach Express
Multis on the Canarsie Line
R-15 with the portholes that opened in the storm door on the Flushing Line
The El cars with the big Cyclops headlight on the 3rd Avenue El.
Lo-Vs on the Lexington Ave. Line
Tom
>>> What's everyone's favorite line/car model combination? <<<
Well Old Tom, has covered most of what I would think of, but let me add these few for variety.
R1-9s on the GG, more so the odd balls with variations in lighting
and interior paint schemes.
R1s on the 4th Avenue Local, with ends doors locked, ala BMT.
Hi-Vs on the Lexington Avenue Local prior to the R-17s.
IRT Gate Cars on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle with Johnson Fare Boxes.
No T/A North of 180th, C/Rs with coin changers.
Cs on the Fulton Elevated.
BUs & Standards on Myrtle Avenue North of Broadway.
R-10s on the A, with the R12/14 lookalikes on the 7.
The Polo Grounds Shuttle.
Franklin~Coney Island Expresses in summer.
Senior in years to have riden all the above in my teens.
:-) Sparky
Here's another oddball, I missed posting.
SIRT Cars on the Culver.
Those were the days, specific cars were assigned to specified lines.
:-) Sparky
Mine should be obvious from my handle. That's before GOH.
Redbirds on the mainline express and Bronx els. Gritty, hardworking, no-nonsense cars blowing past underground local stops, or meandering above gritty, hardworking, no-nonsense neighborhoods.
R32s on the Sea Beach, where they've been a pretty consistent presence since their inception- though intermixed with, variously, 16s, 27/30s, 38s, Slants, 42s, 46s, 68s and 68As. Of course the 32s and N line bear little resemblance to the 1964-'75 glory days when they had blue outside doors and flew express down Broadway and over the Bridge. The revival of weekday 4th Avenue express service is partial consolation.
R1-9s on the Queens express. You knew when one was coming, especially when standing on a local platform. By the late sixties, they mostly made limited rush-hour appearances on the CPW, Concourse, Culver, Brighton and Fulton express runs, so QB was the only place you could get one with any degree of certainty. When skipping Woodhaven Boulevard, you'd swear the train was going to shake itself apart or explode.
It's only since late '97, but you wonder what took them so long to put Slants on the Brighton express. It seems like such a natural fit, especially with the 68s walking- er, running local alongside. A speedily worthy successor to the 1/9s, 32s, Mod 40s and 42s on those ramrod straight stretches of embankment.
No one else seems to miss them, but the old fifties-era LIRR Diesels thundering along the Main Line between Floral Park and Hicksville always gave me a rush- whether in one or along the ROW, especially at the NHP crossings. The double deckers just don't have the same edge.
R-10s with the racing stripe scheme on the A. Surprise, surprise.:-)
R-36s in their original colors on the 7.
R-32s on the N.
R-4s on the D.
How could I forget the slants on the Q? Oops!
I still associate the BMT standards with the Canarsie line, but since I didn't care for them when they were still around, it's not necessarily a favorite combination. Honorable mention, perhaps.
To no one's surprise, give me the railfan window on a Triplex Sea Beach train running down the express tracks to Coney Island and that is pure joy for me. Oh what is that? Yes, that's right, I did have that experience a week ago. And let me or Mark Fineman tell you, I had a real blast.
That was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, too.:-)
I came this close to answering for you, too.:-)
Best ever: Brand new R32s on the old "Q"
But here's the next best line-up:
Early 70s
R10s on the "A"
R38s on the "B"
R1/9s on the "CC"
R32s on the "D"
R40 Slant Fronts on the "E" & "F"
R16s on the "EE"
R1/9s on the "GG"
R27s on the "M" & "QJ" & "QB" & "RR"
R1/9s on the "KK" & "LL"
R32s on the "N"
R17s on the "1"
R21s on the "2"
R12 thru 15s on the "3"
R29s on the "4"
R21/22s on the "5"
R26/28s on the "6"
R36s on the "7"
Q (pre 1968) R32 and prior Type D
QB and QT R27
RR R27
D/F on culver R1-9
A R10
Franklin Shuttle and Canarsie and Culver Sh. Standard
N R32 and prior Type D
7 Red bird with Blue and White World's Fair design
T/TT R32
C R10
Lets see:
R-40 Slants on the A
R-42 and 40Ms on the D
R-10 on the C
Thats about it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Check out my latest homepage exhibit at The Keystone Transit Page.
[There are about 35 photos averaging 100kb each. The index page contains avg 5kb thumbnails of these photos.]
Here are 3 of the cars which were out that day. Third Avenue (NY) Railway Car # 631. I rode this one to the end of the line. The trip
seemed very slow - made me wonder if a museum speed limit is in effect, or if that's all 631 could do. I don't remember seeing U.S. Mail Car # 108 before. Must be a new acquisition or new visitor to STM. I wanted to ride Liberty Bell Limited Car # 1030, but it wasn't in the cards, since I decided to try to catch…
Pete -- Nice seeing you again at Seashore. Here are some answers to your above questions:
We have a speed limit on a portion of the main line, where track work is in progress. For the rest of the main line, full parallel operation is authorized, but may have been limited on your trip if there were other cars preceeding, or simply if the operator wanted to draw out the trip some.
#108 has been at Seashore since 1949!!! (Here's the full roster of the collection.)
Hope to see you there again soon! BTW, our Subtalk colleague mr. t will help organize a Seashore SubTalk Field Trip this summer. Stay tuned!
Good seeing you again too, Todd. Strange that I hadn't seen the mail car before. Too bad duty called you back to New York so (relatively) early on Saturday. The trip with Thurston may be in the cards since I seem to be accumulating some vacation time.
As long as you're answering questions:
Can you tell me about this rapid transit equipment?
Where did this car run?
See you soon,
Keystone Pete
The upper car is a Philadelphia Delaware Bridge car, either 1018 or 1023. Seashore has both - I'm not sure which this is.
The lower car is 1267 from Twin Cities Rapid Transit (Minneapolis). What a beauty!
Frank Hicks
I thought those looked like Delaware River Bridge cars. The red paint-scheme threw me off. We have one in blue/silver livery at Rockhill.
Right you are, Frank, on both counts. I believe that's 1023, as I think it's in front of 1018. I'll double check on my next trip to Seashore.
Does anyone know what the metal "arm" that connects the rail to the front of the yellow car (second picture in the post) is for and what purpose it serves?
Thanks in advance.
That's a "blue flag." It's not connected to the car... that's an optical illusion.
A "blue flag" means "person on or near the car -- do not move car." Only the person who put the blue flag there may remove it. It's used primarily by maintenance personnel to tell operating crews to keepa-yur-pawz-off.
Thanks, after reading your anwser, I can see that it is not connected to the car.
Todd,
I gather from the position in the photo, this is the rear view and
the rectangle has the "Blue Flag" on it. First time I've seen this
application. Do know what the "Blue Flag" signifies.
:-) Sparky
What's that located behind the Twin Cities streetcar? It looks almost like a PCC trolley in SEPTA livery, but I don't remember seeing anything like that in my trips to Seashore. Maybe my memory is failing me.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's a Philadelphia & Western "bullet car," circa 1931. It's either #203, 207, or 208 -- I'm not sure which one. None of these are operational. They were acquired by Seashore in 1991, and with some luck (plus volunteer labor, time, and money), we may have enough parts between the three of them to make one that will operate.
Strange looking Bullet - it's got standee windows.
All seriousness aside, it really is a Philly all-electric PCC.
It's SEPTA PCC 2709. Check out the photo to the right of the Twin Cities streetcar in the "Back at the Seashore Trolley Musuem" section on my page. I took the 2 photos minutes apart. That car has been there in various locations on the grounds since I began returning to STM as an adult 3 years ago. I've never seen in run, though.
Be sure to contact me, chuchubob, Jersey Mike, Karl B, and Isaac Shomer and other SubTalkers with a Pennsylvania connection when you get to Philly. I'm sure we'd all be up for some SubTalk trips in the City of Brotherly Love. [I'm just disappointed not to have made it to the Chicago trip while you lived there :O( ] You might also want to look into the The Rockhill Trolley Museum for museum activities. It's only 3 hours, give or take, west on the Turnpike.
I am desperately trying to get together a Philly trip for a Friday in June. Would you be interested?
I'll be in Philly on Friday, June 14th and might be up for a trip. Still working out my travel schedule, though, so my intinerary may change between now and then.
-- David
Chicago, IL
21 or 28 would work for me, as long as I can give at least a week's notice to work. You can contact me by email so we don't clog-up Dave's bandwidth sorting out the details. (Sorry David Cole -- 14 is out for me -- but you'll be in Philly on a semi-permanent basis soon enough. I hope we'll meet up then.).
You're right, Pete -- my error.
2709 has been out of commission for the past year, but we hope to have it back on-line later this season. One of my Seashore collegues who works for SEPTA is that car's "guardian."
Was it re-guaged?
Pete,
2709 has been regauged to operate at Seashore. I was first trained
and qualified on PCCs on 2709, by the person Todd says is its guardian. That's the same person, who assisted RTM in the aquisition of 2743. I've operated 2709 on several occasions on my annual visits to Seashore. I'll admit most times you'll find me at Branford.
I'm also now a member of RTM.
:-) Sparky
"Hope to see you there again soon! BTW, our Subtalk colleague mr. t will help organize a Seashore SubTalk Field Trip this summer. Stay tuned!"
Roger that my friend, am looking forward to it. Will be a 2 or 3 day event over a week-end w/out a holiday, target is July. We intent to spend some/most of our time there getting dirty on their Gibb Hi-V. Won't it be nice to get her operational again !
At this point I have about 1/2 dozen interested, please e-mail me privately to add yourself to the list.
Mr t__:^)
Hi Keystone Pete,
I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for the numerous photos you have posted for our enjoyment. Especially the photos of the World Trade Center. They brought tears to my eyes and brought back a lot of fond memories.
Thanks again for the photos and my hat's off to you.
Sincerely,
Bklynsubwaybob
Thank you, Bob. Veterans Day 1997 fell midweek, and with the day off, I decided to be a tourist in my own city. I took numerous photographs from the Statue of Liberty Ferry, Liberty Island and Ellis Island that day. I took shots not just of lower Manhattan, but also of Lady Liberty herself, Ellis Island, Brooklyn Bridge, etc. I'm usually not a big fan of the International, glass box style of architecture (not that the twin towers fell strictly into this catagory), but there was something about those two towers, situated where they were, that was quite beautiful (especially in early evening light). At the time, the shots with the star-spangled banner simply made for interesting composition. The fact that such a choice would prove significant 4 years later saddens me too.
Keystone Pete
Brooklyn, NY
Damn, I was in Kennebunkport that weekend and had no clue all that was going on :(.
I did see that Adidas-wrapped Type 7 in Boston, though!
OK, guys, for a New Yorker in exile in North Carolina :
I know it's a lot to ask, but I'd like to know what each line has car-wise these days.
A complete list would be very much appreciated :)
I will put in what I know:
A..........R32, R38, R44
C..........R32
E..........R32,R46
F..........R32, R46
G..........R46 I think
J/Z........R40 (Rarely), R40M, R42
L..........R40, R40M, R42, R-143
N..........R32, R40, R46, R68, R68A
Q..........R40, R68, R68A (R40 on Q diamond)
R..........R32, R46
S..........R68
I know I am missing a few. But like I said I would put in what I know. And I do not ride the IRT on a regular basis. So I will not ID any of the cars on the numbered lines. So help me out someone
I think as of now on the IRT, it's
1 -- R-62A
2 -- R-33/R-142
3 -- R-62A
4 -- R-62/R-33
5 -- R-26/28/29 (basically whatever's left of that group)/R-33/R-142
6 -- R-62/R-142A (plus one rogue R-33 unit that apparently snuck in last week)
7 -- R-33WF/R-36ML/R-36WF/R-62A
The M is like the J/z...Rare occasions and R40, usually R40M-42
I was on an R-38 on the C this past Saturday .
The "C" has quite a few R38s operating. In fact, the ratio of R32:R38 is about 60:40.
You forgot
V....R46
W....R68/68A
Grand Street Shuttle (S)...R46
Rockaway Park Shuttle (S)....R44
ew :p
I'm not aware of R-46's on the N line.
They used to run there back in the early 80's, or was it the R44's. The N definitely had the R46's back then.
I don't think the N train has had R-46 's since they flip-flopped terminals in Queens with the R back in the late '80s.
I have it all outlined on my website.
http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics/subwaycars1.htm for the breakdown by the line
http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics/subwaycars2.htm for the breakdown by car class
http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics/irtyards.htm for the IRT Yard Stickers
Hey, thanks a million!!!!!
No prob although programming the HTML tables can be a hassle sometimes...
Note that I reluctantly added the R62A to the 7 on both pages :-(
Your tables aren't entirely correct.
There are no R-29's on the 2; there haven't been for a number of years.
The 5 is now mostly R-33's -- specifically, the ones that used to run on the 2. I'm not sure if the 5 had any R-33's before the R-142's bumped the Redbirds off the 2. The 5 has also started to receive its R-142's.
R-32's are occasionally sighted on the A and R.
R-46's are occasionally sighted on the E.
Many R-68A's show up on the N, especially on weekends. There are occasional R-68 sightings on the W and R-68A sightings on the Q. And the local-express distinction isn't set in stone.
The Grand Street shuttle runs R-46's from Jamaica.
I am not counting the occasional appearances. Those tables reflect the actual assignments. There are no R46s assigned to the E but that does not mean they can't show up there. Same with the R32s on the A and E.
I can correct the 2/5 thing though.
IME, official assignments aside, R-68A's show up on the N much more often than R-32's show up on the F. If you're listing only what's officially assigned, you might want to mention that somewhere.
And the Grand Street shuttle is assigned R-46's from Jamaica. That's all it's ever had from Day One. Whoever told you it ran R-68's was very mistaken; I don't think there's been an R-68 in Grand Street since early in the morning on July 22 (the last B train to Brooklyn).
I will change Grand and the 2/5 ASAP. I can note that those are the official car assignments and they are subject to change based on train availability.
I've seen the R-68s on the Grand Street shuttle. I'm almost certain that's what it's had recently. So I think you are right.
I highly doubt you saw R-68's on the Grand Street shuttle. If you did, it's because the usual R-46's there broke down and a set of R-68's (probably off the B or D) was the first thing that could fill in. Was it a full-length train? What did the signs say?
The Grand Street shuttle normally runs R-46's out of Jamaica.
You're right, my mistake. For some reason I was thinking of the Franklin shuttle, which does have R-68s. Stupid lack of paying attention on my part. (I'm still not used to the idea of a Grand Street Shuttle so for some reason my mind thought of the Franklin shuttle).
From today's (6/3/02) New York Times:
After a five-month delay, work on a trolley to run from Red Hook to Downtown Brooklyn resumed two and a half weeks ago. Work had begun in October and stopped in December after the project, spearheaded by the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association, fell short of money needed to supplement federal funds. The work resumed after Mayor Bloomberg promised $50,000 for the trolley in his executive budget. The estimated total price tag: $3 million.
Congratulations to Bob D!
--Mark
All right! Soon, we'll be hearing trolleys clanging back in Brooklyn!
>>All right! Soon, we'll be hearing trolleys clanging back in Brooklyn!<<
And we'll hear the sound of Mayor LaGuardia spinning in his grave ! And he thought he killed the trolleys for good.
Bill "Newkirk"
I wonder what Robert Moses is doing in his grave?
Rotting. :)
Probably saying "Boy,it's awfully hot down here".
Yeah, and you can ONLY use public transportation......that would be HIS personal hell......
Well, he is underground. :-)
Excellent! When do they expect to have the trolleys running?
What sort of volunteer opportunities does BHRA have, if any? Since I'll be moving to Philly soon, I'll be looking for a way to get involved with something like that. Branford is a little too far to make it up from Philly every weekend, but Brooklyn would be much closer.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Bob Diamond's current plan is to make a loop & start charging for rides. The area is part of a development zone. The trolleys could help re-vitalize the are, just as light rail has/is done in other cities, e.g. HBLR, San Fran, etc.
David,
They do have a web site and if your willing to get dirty, they gladly
welcome your assistance. Maybe once a month, you could veture up to
Branford and join us also.
So try: HTTP://www.Brooklynrail.com
Contact me privately, I can refer you to one of the shop people.
:-) Sparky
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
Beginning in late September I'll be going to school part-time in the evenings while working full-time during the day, so my weekends may end up being used to catch up on schoolwork and rest. But I'm keeping my options open until I have a better idea of what my schedule will be. I may end moving to Philly too late to do much this summer, but next summer is always a possibility.
-- David
Chicago, IL
With your location-to-be in Philly, there are several reasonably convenient places to volunteer. Branford and BHRA have already been mentioned, but two others that are even closer to Philly are the operation in Scranton and the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, where occasional poster Dan Lawrence practically lives. And of course National Capital just outside DC - closer than Branford, about the same as BHRA, but farther than the other two.
All that being said, I drive all the way to Branford when I could just as easily drive to one of the others (I'm the operating/tour guiding type, not the mechanically inclined, so BHRA doesn't have much to offer me).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
To give an objective view of trolley operations for David in
relationship to Philly, may I add he visit Rockhill Trolley Museum,
Orbisonia, PA. With his Chicago roots and gleaming interest in the
North Shore Electroliners, he'll find the Liberty Liner [aka Electroliner] and CA&E 315. And if'n he a railfan, the EBT narrow
gauge steam operation across the street. Me thinks it's 3 hours
west of Philly.
:-) Sparky
Right. Not sure why I left that one out... it's close to four hours from Philly, though, at least if you stay reasonably close to the legal speed limit :-) Well worth a visit, regardless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think if I were going to spend 3-4 hours each way on the road to/from a trolley museum each weekend, I'd probably just as soon head up to Branford! At least I already know a few of the folks up there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David, we would love to have you join us, but what about Baltimore ?
Would that be closer to you ? Dan Lawrence has been a long time poster here. If he doesn't reply to this e-mail privately & I'll give you his address.
Mr rt__:^)
I'll have to check out the museum at Baltimore. I know E_DOG is active there as well. But I understand they only have Baltimore equipment there? My primary interest is actually rapid transit stuff, as opposed to trolleys (although trolleys are still cool), so that naturally leads me to places like Branford and IRM.
However, the cool things about BHRA are that: 1) It's in Brooklyn (as if I would need an excuse to head to NYC every weekend) and 2) It will be a real live trolley system using city streets and serving as actual transit, rather than just a museum piece. Nothing against museums, but there's something very cool about the ideal of helping get a bona fide trolley system up and running.
At the very least, though, I'll probably become a member at Branford and try to get up there every so often for special events.
But then, like I said, It all depends on my schedule and what sort of workload/schoolwork I'm taking on, and what other activities in Philly I end up doing. I do have other hobbies, too. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, BSM is very nearly, if not 100% (I'm not sure), all Baltimore equipment. But it's NICE Baltimore equipment!
Given your interest in RT stuff, though, Branford is the place to be. I don't know of any other non-agency museum, outside of IRM, that dedicates as much effort and money to RT as Branford does. The nice thing about both of those museums, though, is that they are not emphasizing RT to the exclusion of everything else - after all, Branford is named the Shore Line Trolley Museum for a very good reason. Rather, the RT equipment complements the trolleys and helps me, as an operator/guide at Branford, tell the story of urban mass transit in America.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right you are Mouse. We talk a lot about their RT stuff here, because that's what this group cares about, but in fact the rt stuff doesn't run too often. Their is interest there in intergrating maybe a El car/train for some "scheduled" trips on the week-ends.
The membership rolls has added quite a few rt fans and the rt/NYC event does draw a big crowd. There is also a couple of groups active restoring same.
I'm finding more and more of the "trolley" guys becoming my friends, but who is changing them or me ?
Mr rt__:^)
When you get settled, e-mail me and we'll try to set up a visit to "America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum. I'll set up the proverbial 25 cent tour.
That's just great!
Although this seems more like a symbolic gesture -- $50000 won't take it far; but hey, with any luck that might be just the beginning.
Another question of course is, supposing it can be completed, is it going to be able to turn a profit? And if not, then again who's going to pick up the tab?
At this point I think Bob Diamond's intention/desire is to get it running, at least around a loop. So, until it starts drawing hords of customers, with a few volunteers it won't cost much to operate (am wondering if the City is going to provide free electricty).
Mr rt__:^)
On the E train at LEX half was into the station, heard the scream and felt the wheels go over something.
Was it a 12-9?
Anyone know if the person lived?
My best to the crew.
Person was DOA
Thank you for the update.
He is no longer with NYCT......
Mike, can you elaborate...
Last thing I heard, Erik was an engineer for PATH. It's nice to hear that he landed on his feet after he tripped over the TWU
>>Last thing I heard, Erik was an engineer for PATH.<<
Soon we'll be hearing Erik weave tales of PATH, just he did here on the subway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I can see it now -- "The Transit Professional Formerly known as Mr. PA3" 8~>
I hope so.
That's very interesting. He was a member of the New Directions group, many of us even saw him on TV at a rally. Pres. Roger T. is/was also New Directions.
Maybe he just left the TA to become a operator as he was a Conductor at the TA ?????
In any case, Eric if you are reading this, I wish you all the best.
Mr rt__:^)
Woo-hoo! Article here Check out the quote from Dr. Michael Meyer, he's one of my professors this semester.
Say you ride the bus, enter the subway within 2:18 minutes, then
attempt a transfer from "6" to "F" at 59th to Lexington, where you can
transfer free, with Metrocard only. Will the system recognize a free
transfer after you have reset coming from the bus to the subway?
No. There is only one free MetroCard transfer per paid fare, and the newly permitted subway-to-subway MetroCard transfers count. Sorry.
They should. It defeats the purpose of their existance unless they do.
It doesn't quite defeat the purpose of their existence, but I agree that the bus-subway transfer shouldn't eat up the subway-subway transfer.
Personally, I've gotten a lot of use out of the subway-subway transfers to make round trips.
I used the one at 63rd and Lex in December, expecting to be able to get on the M2 for my return trip uptown. I was not pleased when the farebox said 1.50 PAID. I was going to Rockafeller Center and without the F on 53rd, I figured I would get the F at 63rd and go that way.
I agree, at the very least this restriction should have been publicized better. Next time take the E to 5th or the N/R to 49th and walk.
I wish it was.
To top it off, I missed an M2 Limited, then waited 20 minutes for another. We never passed a single local bus I had let by. Also, at that point the M1 and M2 don't stop in the same place as the M3 and M4, so I really could only wait for M1s and M2s. My previous experience had been if you waited for a limited M2 on a Saturday afternoon, you would still beat the local from that point on Madison.
Also understand that most folks now use some form of Unlimited MC, so the answers here only apply to folks with VALUE MCs.
P.S. There are a few "3 Legged" Transfers permitted, but in general the answer above is correct, i.e. you get ONE free Transfer, then you pay again.
Mr rt__:^)
Most folks use unlimiteds? I highly doubt that. Do you have a source to back that up?
Taking into account only everyday rush hour commuters, it's possible, although even that I find unlikely. But among the midday and weekend crowds, few have unlimiteds.
Taking into account only everyday rush hour commuters, it's possible, although even that I find unlikely. But among the midday and weekend crowds, few have unlimiteds.
Hmm. Aren't most people who ride the subways rush hour commuters? Isn't that why it's more crowded then?
There are more people riding the trains during rush hours than at other times, but that doesn't mean that a majority of riders are riding during rush hours. I don't know if a majority of total ridership takes place during rush hours, but I doubt it, especially on the IRT.
In any case, even if a majority of subway riders are rush hour commuters, and a majority of rush hour commuters have unlimited passes, that doesn't mean that a majority of subway riders have subway passes. If, e.g., 65% of all riders are rush hour commuters, and 65% of all rush hour commuters have unlimited passes, only 42% of all subway riders have unlimited passes.
The Q65 bus has more Unlimited then value MetroCards users every week-day. 1/4 of the paying customers pay in cash, it also has a lot of folks who board with some kind of a Transfer (paper or MetroCard Bus/Subway).
Mr rt__:^)
Thurston,
Transfer = Paper??? Do you mean the card issued from the Fare Box
for short turns or Bus to Bus Transfer with C*A*S*H?
:-) Sparky
Sparky, We still get several different kinds of "paper". One is the paper/card "Bus Transfer". Another is the single trip paper/card (green). A third is given to Seniors & Disabled when they buy a subway ride with cash. Lastly is a "Block", pink, when the subway don't work so good ... there is another issued for this purpose when the TA sends buses to replaced scheduled subway down time, but they don't ask us to provide that service .... even on Steinway Street.
Mr rt__:^)
We also have to account for the "Queens Fare" that cheap fare you get for only paying cash out there in Queens Land.
Right, ride every day off-peek for $1.00 if you pay in cash ... you can also ask for a Transfer, such a deal !
Mr rt__:^)
It is such a deal. Is that on Queens Surface Lines only? Is the
transfer paper or a paper/card?
:-) Sparky
All of the private company local routes. The transfers issued are normal, you can transfer to any route, even $1.50 TA routes.
You can't use the paper card to transfer to the subway.
That's why it's called a "Bus Transfer"
That's what I tell the customers when they don't know why it can't be used on the subway.
Thurston,
Thanks for the input regarding Transfers. I guess I'm so used to only
the "paper/card", forgot about the others. Well when your Senior enough to remember Drivers issuing Paper Transfers & Change. >G<
:-) Sparky
If, e.g., 65% of all riders are rush hour commuters, and 65% of all rush hour commuters have unlimited passes, only 42% of all subway riders have unlimited passes.
Sssssshhhhhh... don't tell the Republicans!
Come on, that's not fair. We all know Bush won by a 5-to-4 majority.
"If, e.g., 65% of all riders are rush hour commuters, and 65% of all rush hour commuters have unlimited passes, only 42% of all subway riders have unlimited passes."
Adding to the confusion is that those with unlimited passes ride more often (not surprisingly). So using those numbers, the 42% of riders who maybe have unlimited passes might account for a majority of the rides.
True, it's possible. Again, although I haven't seen any statistics, I doubt it.
One anecdote. A few months ago, during a GO that suspended 4/5 service from the Bronx to Manhattan, I was on the shuttle bus from 149-GC to 3-138. Unfortunately, it dropped us off at the wrong end of the station, by the unattended entrance (so nobody was there to accept our transfers). We all went downstairs anyway, and out of the entire articulated busload, I saw only about five swipe their way through the HEETs -- the rest of us marched up the other staircase and walked to the other end of the station. Presumably, anyone with an unlimited (and half a brain) would have just swiped in, as would anyone who didn't have a paper transfer (i.e., anyone who would have only boarded the subway at 149-GC had it been running there but instead hopped onto the free bus). Now, I'll grant that this was just an anecdote, but it appears that very few Sunday morning Bronx subway riders use unlimiteds.
My experience with those transfers have been interesting. When I needed to go to Stillwell, and the N doesn't go there anymore, I took the bus (paid once) to the W (1 free transfer). Then from Stillwell, I took the B74. The farebox said 1.50 paid. On my way home, coming on the bus again, it siad 1.50 paid, and I had only lost one fare. It didn't deduct the 1.50 on my "2nd transfer" although it said it did.
Like I have posted previously, my wife uses a mail 'n ride disabled card and the transfering is odd. On many occasions in the PM returning to Brooklyn via LIC, she'll opt for the 2nd bus. Reading
the monthly statement, you get one with mail 'n ride, it may or may not charge her the extra fare.
We did it once together several years ago, her with her reduced and mine the regular. On the last bus of the subway>bus>bus, she received a transfer accepted, while I paid the additional fare. So who knows?
:-) Sparky
As noted in a previous post by BMTman in the Model Train show thread,Thurston, Heypaul, BMTman and myself saw 2 Redbirds at Floyd Bennet Field in the Emergency Services part of the field.
We couldn't get close enough to make out the numbers. We didn't have strong enough camera lenses or binoculars to make out the numbers. They DID NOT appear to be R33/36 WF cars from the shape of the windows.
Anyone know which two are now sitting at Floyd Bennet Field /
Al, I made a post about this yesterday: Heypaul and I biked out to Floyd Bennett on Sunday and got a closer look at the Redbirds and that beat-up fishbowl (no markings to ID it).
The Redbirds are indeed a set of R-33's. Their numbers are 9156 & 9157. I will forward the shots to Dave P. for inclusion at his IRT roster.
Some railfans will go to any length for their hobby.
And note that a no time were they any place they should be, because they are OUT STANDING in their field. Good work !
Mr rt__:^)
Has anyone else noticed the B.C. daily comic strip for today?
I guess the cartoonist doesn't like subways!
"Never ride on a subway where there are legs caught in the doors"
Yes, 2 1959 American Car and Foundry R-26's have been saved and will spend the rest of their days in the BMT as schoolcars! They are 7770-7771, The oldest R-26's still on the property as 7750-69 have been reefed. While they will no longer operate and will be in a fixed location, at least they are saved! Just keep your eyes open. They will appear in a yard somewhere on the BMT soon. Anyone care to start guessing?
-Mark
*HINT*
They will be near a public space and in a location where they can be photographed!
PS248?!?
-Stef
Either that or they'll be at Coney Island Yard.
-Stef
Coney Island yard has two R30 to use for School Car.
Robert
Are they getting a divorce, i.e. no longer married pairs ?
Mr rt__:^)
Coney Island?
So what happened to the 2 that the I.R.M. was supposed to get ?
I understood that no Redbirds would be sold to anyone because of asbestos concerns. No exceptions.
Bummer.
Let's just say you'll never know what can happen. Those excpetions might change tomorrow.
-Stef
I sure hope so.
Yet they can be sunk to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.
They will remain a pair and will not be going to PS 248 or Coney.
ENY or Canarsie needs a school car. There doesn't seem to be any space at ENY, but Canarsie is being expanded (such as the new tower being built.) That way, R-143 training can be held there where all the cars are instead of Pitkin.
You are correct! They will be in Canarsie yard on 12 track (The one closest to the station) They should be there sometime this week.
-Mark
That Track #1 not #12.
Robert
Uh...I don't know what you are talking about. Track 12 is alongside the fence next to the station. Track 1 is in the middle of the yard.
Now that I think about it your Right. It's been I while since I have been in the yard. I am SORRY. Last few time that I have been in the yard was on the Work train, coming off of the track with out power.
Robert
As we speak, the cars are being sandwiched between 4 R-42's for their trip to Canarsie! I'm on the L tomorrow and will have camera in hand! I am like a kid in the toy store. I am so happy I got them to take those 2 cars!
-R-26 7770-1 formerly known as Mark W. lol
Now if they run them down there in REVENUE, it'll be like the old days. :)
Don't tell BMTMan, he'll abondon his new IRT home to go back to the L.
I don't see how Doug can live on the IRT in the first place, it seems so a-typical. Doug, are you listening? There are some places on the Franklin Shuttle roadbed where you could build a nice narrow condo!
:-)
Dave
Awwww, Unca Dougie's gone completely to L anyway. If he wasn't jumping up and down demanding that they run up and down the Franklin Avenue shuttle, then his therapy is coming along nicely. :)
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the great news, let us know when they finally get there. I'd like to take a ride out there and get a picture or two.
Thanks,
Marc
Ssshhh! Mark I thought you weren't suppose to tell anyone. It was supposed to be a secret?
Yes...But now that thay are there, everyone will know.
And when they're done serving as a school cars, Mark can help secure these for the RPC, otherwise they'll become a part of the Transit Museum Fleet (if we're that lucky).
-Stef
I saw the married pair set of R-26s #7770-7771 on the January 21, 2002 field trip with some of the "SubTalk"ers. I'm glad to see that at least two of those cars are saved. I think that the T/A should preserve at least one married pair set of the following cars. R-28/29/33/36/36WF/ They already have a R-33WF in the museum. Perhaps one more in working condition can be added.
#3 West End Jeff
Can you read this sign & what does it say??
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r10/r10-3318.jpg
I could only make out the last word clearly: "Unfair". I fiddled with it a bit and it looked something like "Raising the fare unfair". Maybe someone with a system configured for heavy-duty image editing can make it out better.
I saw "Raise in Funds... U-WALK"
(maybe they meant "raising funds... u-walk")
After fiddling with it with my Adobe Photo Shop, I am convinced it says
"Raising the fare unfair"
That's what I made it out to be. Judging from the half-and-half paint scheme, this photo probably dates from December of 1969, when they announced a fare increase. The Daily News carried a headline, "25-cent fare for sure, but maybe 30 cents". It went from 20 to 30 cents on January 2, 1970.
20 cents to ride an r10!?!?!
Somebody PINCH me!
0:)
Well, that's when a slice of pizza was only a quarter....
::THUD!!::
thats the only sound a r-142 makes !!!............lol!!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
0:c)
back in the 1960s ...
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
*****************
enter dis ' inta' your url ....
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
Yes, from July 5, 1966 until January 2, 1970 the subway fare was 20 cents, and they still used the dime-sized tokens. I remember both very well. My token tie clip and token cuff links bring back many pleasant memories.
Ah memories.
That like my hairline is slowly receding.
Don't remind me of that.:-(
I have read postings about the G that it turns at Church Avenue on Saturday's due to the 4th Avenue tower not being staffed. Well, I have observed G trains being moved to the express track at 4th Avenue, and turning at Church Avenue. This means they need BOTH the 4th Avenue and Church Avenue towers staffed.
Does anyone know the real reason they move the G trains to the express track, run them past the "normal" turning point, ant run all the way to Church Avenue?
The G was originally intended to turn at Church. Church has all the relay tracks and crew facilities. The G was suposted to provide local srevice and the F express service. This duality needs to be restored.
>and crew facilities
Please tell me where they are!
Someone mentioned them b4 when this topic came up.
imma expert on the culver line especially with church avenue. the crew facilities are behind the stairs at the front of the southbound platform. at church av SB, the T/O crew gets off and a relay operator brings the g down and back up the other side and a new crew gets on.
many people at 4av/9st need to take the f to get beyond church av so they shouldnt make the f express. its a railfan's dream to extend the v into culver and make the f express but due to a bad fire at bergen that crippled the interlocking system, trains coming from jay st can either ONLY go exp or ONLY go local.
one possibility is to extend the g into church av, both f and the g run local. y cant the mta do that? people say itll get congested at church av but dont they do they same at smith9? but instead the mta drops the g in the middle of no man's land.
Sorry to break it to you expert, But behing the stairs is only a tower. There are no crew facilities anywhere in the station.
What did they do when the IND ended at Church Ave, back in the day?
I have long argued here that the G should be extended to Church, if nothing else so it doesn't end one stop away from a transfer point (to the BMT downstairs). It's almost insulting the way the G relays right in the station at 4th Avenue, but on an inaccessible track.
Right now, there probably aren't enough cars for this to be realistic during rush hour. It could -- and should, IMO -- be done off-peak, when the F doesn't run terribly frequently.
It's almost insulting the way the G relays right in the station at 4th Avenue, but on an inaccessible track.
Couldn't a platform be "temporarily" constructed over the 4th track for the G train? I think they did someting like that at Marcy Av when the WIlly B was closed.
They also put temporary platforms over the local tracks on some stations on the Brighton Line several years ago
when the tracks were being worked on.
- Lyle Goldman
I had a similar thought, but the complex network of staircases leading up to the station would have to be modified to add a staircase to the new island platform. I don't know how expensive that would be, but it would probably be cheaper to run G's to Church for many years.
complex network of staircases leading up to the station would have to be modified to add a staircase to the new island platform.
Surely it would only be necessary to give it access through somewhere that is already accessible. A simple wooden (or steel if wood is considered too much of a fire risk) staircase to the Manhattan bound platform would be enough to render it useable. That probably would necessitate the destruction of part of the canopy on that platform.
I would also suggest putting sections of steel deck across both center trackways at 7th Av and Church Av, giving one large island platform at each, but should a GO dictate, the former layout could be restored by a team of 6 men and an AJ.
It's already a hefty climb from the BMT platforms to the IND platforms, with no escalators or elevators to assist. An overpass is unreasonable.
I believe that British James doesn't understand that the F uses the local tracks with side platforms, while the G relays in the middle on the express. A temporary platform would have to be in place of one of the express tracks, accessed from above or below.
Too bad I wasn't in CPM signals while the Bergen Street project was being designed. I would have suggested moving the interlocking between Smith/9th and 4th that allows the G to relay into the tunnel between 4th and 7th Avenues. The G could have served 4th Avenue, and would have only had to go a few more feet. Perhaps when they start designing the Culver CBTC project I'll bring it up.
I agree about going to Church off peak. If you going to relay at Church, why not go there? The big advantage would be a link between the Orthodox communities in Kensington and Williamsburg -- nearby Boro Park is a big shopping center for Orthodox around the world. There is a private bus between the two communities that spews fumes.
It's already a hefty climb from the BMT platforms to the IND platforms, with no escalators or elevators to assist. An overpass is unreasonable.
I am aware of that. Does the MTA plan to install escalators? It certainly would be helpful.
An overpass wouldn't be unreasonable for an physically fit person. Anyone who's managed to get up all those stairs already would not find another flight particularly more exerting. However, access from below would be much better (if more expensive to construct), plus anyone with a degree of physical incapacity would find it even harder than at present.
Ever run up those stairs before? During the week of the GO when the trains were running through the lower level, I ran up those stairs as soon as I saw a train in the station with the doors open, since I didn't want to miss it and wait 15 minutes for the next one. I also wanted to ride in the front car. I made it with about a minute to spare or so. I am in good shape and I was tired.
A friend of mine got married and moved to New Jersey because when he and his wife were dating, he went from Bay Ridge to Flushing Avenue on the G line, and he couldn't take that Smith-9th-Fourth Avenue situation any longer!
Well, I live in Bay Ridge, & my fiancee lives off the Nassau Ave. "G". Easiest way for me to get over there is by getting off at Pacific, and walking around the block to the G by BAM.
Welcome to "Krakow on the East River" and glad your not a spend thrift,
when it comes to sliding for the extra fare. It is hell
to transfer and walk up at Fourth Avenue, and wait for the "F",
while the "G" relays in front of it.
:-) Sparky
"due to a bad fire at bergen that crippled the interlocking system, trains coming from jay st can either ONLY go exp or ONLY go local."
It's more restrictive than that. There are no working home or approach signals on the lower level, and Bergen tower has no control over the turnouts down there either.
Any G.O. that requires Culver trains to run express through Bergen requires a small army of Signal and RTO people, and some setup time.
They just run the trains every 15 minutes when they do that, I rode it when they did that GO last year. I will attest that those trains were not running every 15 minutes but the one I rode through there waited at 4th Avenue for a few minutes with the doors open before going onto the express.
Why don't they just fix the interlocking.
I think the bid was just awarded for someone (Comstock, MassElectric) to install a US&S Microlock.
Score one for US&S.
It'll be the first such install on the system, I think. I hope it is well recieved. Of course, you could spill your coffee into a model 14, and after drying out it would be fine...
How many levers did the Bergen St. machine have, 20 or so?
The bid price was to the tune of $25 Million. That's like
a million dollars a lever. For that money, signal dept. could
haven taken an old model 14 from storage at 215 St, replaced all
the lever knobs with solid gold pieces, and still come in under
budget.
I dunno. Maybe this is one of those "change everything" contracts
with new signal heads, track relays, switch motors, etc. That
would bring the price more in line with reality, though you gotta
ask why bother to change all that stuff if it's working fine.
I mean, Queens Plaza was one thing. A whole bunch of new tracks,
switches and signals were added, and it would have been a pain
to add on to that model 5 machine (do you think anyone is still
around who could engineer a new locking chart for the bed?)
But Bergen St? The TA has delayed repairing that interlocking for
years in order to make it the pilot project for microlok.
> How many levers did the Bergen St. machine have, 20 or so?
At least 24, But a lot of the heads are bagged. I'll check tonight on the way home.
> The bid price was to the tune of $25 Million. That's like
> a million dollars a lever.
What was the famous quote?
"Just multiply $50,000 by the number of signal lenses"
> ...though you gotta ask why bother to change all that stuff if
> it's working fine.
Especially in a budget crunch.
> I mean, Queens Plaza was one thing. A whole bunch of new tracks,
> switches and signals were added, and it would have been a pain
> to add on to that model 5 machine (do you think anyone is still
> around who could engineer a new locking chart for the bed?)
I sit around coffehouses drawing them on graph paper. (It's a personal problem, I'm seeking help!)
> But Bergen St? The TA has delayed repairing that interlocking for
> years in order to make it the pilot project for microlok.
When was the fire? summer of 1999? Considering it was an unexpected budget item, I don't think they were sitting on the repair, I just think the bid process was long a drawn out, like they always are for both public and private agencies. MicroLock's not exactly a spring chicken, it's been around, right?
MicroLok has been around for a few years. I'm not sure who
the first customers were. Bergen St will be NYCT's first foray
into the world of vital signal processors. Unlike CBTC, I don't
think there is much doubt in the signal community that MicroLock
works and is fail-safe.
The quote was $50,000 per light bulb and appeared in an issue
of RT&S during the last year. That guideline seems to be biased
in favor of searchlight mechs and definitely against PL...perhaps
that is why the LIRR is allegedly changing? (see LIRR thread).
Bid schmid....In the "good old days", the signal maintainers
would simply go down there and repair or replace the tower.
I'll have to find out the scope of work. Those are A-10s?
NYCT has been phasing those out, for whatever reason.
Yes A10's
Tick-THWOCK-Tissshhhh.
I would be surprised if this upgrade did not lead to Bergen and or 4th Ave from being 24 hr towers. Add a few punches for the work trains to request lineups and they save people dollars after the whole thing gets the kinks out.
I dunno, but since 4th Ave is the G terminal, doesn't someone need to be there 24/7 to fill out paperwork, and adjust the departure times for delays and such?
Plus its hard to hook up route punches to a Model 14. ( Okay, you could push the buttons REAL hard, and they could be connected to some levers )
:-)
"How many levers did the Bergen St. machine have, 20 or so? "
The upstairs levers go to at least 24, so counting the crossover on the express, it was proabably 33-35 levers or so.
Microlock (TM) should actually make things cheaper. It's one of those plug and play systems that were designed to eliminate the rats nets of relays and wires that made up an old interlocking system. There is nothing really important about the system. Its only a microprocessor based interlocker and in todays digital age that is nothing special.
Most of the relay racks I've seen in pictures are wired with excruciating neatness.
Admittedly, Microlock is same-old-same-old, but its a notable step for the NYCTA to adopt this tech. The important thing is that it PROVEN technology.
I have the US&S catalog and while they still make Pneumatic switches, trip arms and position light signals, the only interlocking system they offer is Microlock (TM). So I don't think the MTA had much choice.
It is a slightly big deal that the microprocessor-based system
is as fail-safe as a relay plant. Would you trust your railroad
to Winbloze 2K?
The point though is that Microlock and other VSPs have been around
for a while, they work reliably, and since they are merely processsor-
based implementations of existing and well-known boolean nets
(relay equivalents), they are absolutely proven technology.
It's funny that NYCT has to have a "pilot project" with this, as if
there is some question as to whether it will work. Just do it.
CBTC, OTOH, is UNproven technology. Yet, NYCT's long-term strategy
doesn't seem to allow for the possibility of not using it.
I have a soap-box you could borrow...
Is it a vital soapbox?
It's five smaller non-vital boxes ganged together to form one larger soap-box-unit. If any one of the five changes relative position to the other four, they all "self-destruct in the usual manner"
But when will it be installed?
- Lyle Goldman
When they get to it.
The bid process is a long one. I know my agency that if there is only one response to the bid, that opens another can of worms and needs further approvals.
The bid process itself is over a year, closer to 18 months for that amount of money.
I hear that it will be controlled by the Jay Street tower. If true, perhaps this will end the conflicting patterns of F and G trains going to Bergen Street. It will be refreshing not to be held at Jay "to maintain even spacing on the Coney Island-bound F trains" and then be delayed between stations behind a G. Instead of being right behind the previous F, we end up right ahead of the next F.
The original plant could do exactly what you say. Jay St is on the model board, along with a good portion of the Crosstown line. The SB leaving signal at Jay was the first controlled signal of the Bergen plant.
So basically, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Department of Redundancy Department.
But someone will still have sit at Bergan and fill in the G's gap sheets, no??
Much of the southern section of the Crosstown line is on the new mosiac-style board in the glassed-in extension to Jay Tower. They can see the G's from there I would guess.
There needs to be a sign on the glass: "Supervision in Natural Habitat"
:-)
Not at night. 4th and Jay are still fairly close.
But the people in Carroll Gardens are better organized than those in Park Slope or further along the Culver line. They don't want to have to climb stairs to get to a thru Manhattan train at Bergen St.
The real insanity of the line, tho', is the way they built 4th Av/9th St as a local station. It shoulda been express, with 7th Av being local.
In hinsight that is true, but remember the IND was built to destroy the BMT (and IRT), so they wasnted to make it as difficult as possible to use. Unfortunately it renders the whole express portion useless. In addition, there should be a way for the local to go to Manhattan...having 4th Ave as a non-Manhattan stop is also nuts. The only way the express/local would work on that line is if they sent the V to Church. The G as a non-Manhattan train will drive people nuts at those stations.
Yes, but the ultimate plan was for the city to take over the private systems, so realisticly it was stupid of them to not make the 4th/9th station an express stop.
-Hank
They DO NOT need to send the V to Church. The people at the local stops along the IND portion do not need as many Fs as they have now, the F can be split into an F-circle that runs to KH all local and an F-diamond to Coney Island express (peak-direction only south of Church). Since there would still be Manhattan service on the local tracks, Bergen would not need to be an express stop.
Use whatever letters you like, but there is currently no way to send some trains from Manhattan onto the local track and others onto the express track.
And the switches at Kings Highway don't allow locals to terminate there anymore.
> And the switches at Kings Highway don't allow locals to terminate there anymore.
Yes they do. Many rush-hour local trains terminate at Kings Highway. The only locals that can't terminate there
would be ones that come from the Coney Island direction.
- Lyle Goldman
Sorry, my mistake. The switches there don't allow for all locals to terminate at Kings Highway and only expresses to continue past Kings Highway (as locals between KH and Stillwell). Any northbound train on the middle track must have been on the middle track at Avenue U, a local stop. If no locals continue south of Kings Highway, there will be no northbound service at Avenue U in the morning. (The problem is solved if locals as well as expresses run through to Stillwell, at the risk of merging delays and congestion at the terminal.)
Extending the V wont work as of now since the interlocking system at Bergen St is not functioning due to some fire. Either all trains from Jay St go express or all of them go local. The MTA will get this fixed. The question is when.
OK - When I was a teenager, I lived along that line, near Ft Hamilton Pky station. First it was the D train, than the F after the Christie Street connector opened.
The G terminated at Smith 9th from when the crosstown line opened in the 30's, right up till July 1968, when they started running the F express (rush hours only) during which time the GG was extended to Church Avenue. This lasted only until the mid 70's when the cutbacks during the City Fiscal crises reduced many subway services.
So for all but about 7 years the G terminated at Smith 9th and was turned at 4th Avenue. Now after all those years, and only on Saturdays, they turn the G at Church Avenue, but still drop the passengers at Smith 9th. WHY???
No one really answered that question.
", they turn the G at Church Avenue, but still drop the passengers at Smith 9th. WHY??? "
Are the stations between 4th and Church set up for OPTO? that wouldn't explain the extension, but it qould explain trains running light.
qould =would
D'Oh!
If the "G" can operate OPTO Saturdays from Continental Ave. to
Smith/9th Streets, why can it not run OPTO 4th Avenue to Church Ave.?
There are island platforms from Forest Hills to South Brooklyn.
They only have to hang stop signs and boards. >G<
:-) Sparky
I dunno, but isn't there a qualification issue as well? After the signs are positioned at the most inconvieniant position for customers, don't all the TO's have to become "OPTO-qualified" for the stations concerned?
Enlighten us, o' B-Division motormen...
Hi all,
If you haven't already noticed, the "archived" messages are now available in the main database for each "talk". There's no need for a separate archive system now.
So, what you can do is pick a message range by date under the Change Display Options screen to see older messages. The normal viewing options that are now available are (posted within the last) Day, Half Day, 2, 3, or 4 days, Week, Two Weeks, or Month. The smaller the value you choose, the friendlier you are to the database.
This change has the following advantages: allows you to respond to older messages; no lag between the "posted within the last" time period and when I archived the messages; and I no longer actually have to remember to archive the messages!
The site database is now MySQL (upgraded from mSQL) which is a lot faster and allowed for the archives database to be kept "live".
Enjoy,
-Dave
p.s. the "really old" subtalk messages are still available at:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/oldsubtalk.cgi
That's pretty cool. I guess a few people had discovered that on their own because we've been seing some old threads pop up here and there. Sometimes some of the old posts are relevant to current talks....
While on a Manhattan bound 7 express this morning I shared the window with a kid, whose father was there teaching him about the subways. He said he worked at the Woodside tower, pointing out "his office" as we approached Woodside.
It was nice to see a kid into trains, and the kid was extremely dissapointed to see all the abandoned trackways for the Queensboro El train. "they should still run trolleys over the bridge" the kid said.
They got off at Queensboro plaza where the kid wanted to go on an N train to Manhattan. I said "have fun" as they left.
Hopefully they got to ride a slant through the 60th street tunnel.
If we can teach young railfans to stay railfans, the world will be alot better place. :-)
Yes, we need more recruits on the war against the NIMBY's! That was a nice thing, indeed. I think the kid got the right idea over the trolleys over Queensboro. Though, doesn't the tramway provide for that? has anyone ridden on them or something? It seems scary!
I think the tramway is closed for repairs. Something about needing something with the cable. Now that the F train goes there, I have a feeling the tram is out its way out.
The tram is running again.
It always amazes me as to why they never removed all the extra structural steel at Queensboro Plaza that used to be used for the bridge trolleys. The station severely needs a makeover, and possibly make it less of an eyesore. Since most of the steel existing is very much load-bearing and holding up much of the station, it would require a big re-design on the structural steel system. But it would be nice to get rid of some of the unsightly extra steel, and open up Queens Plaza to a little more light.
>>> It always amazes me as to why they never removed all the extra structural steel at Queensboro Plaza that used to be used for the bridge trolleys <<<
I think you are confused. They paved over the bridge trolley lanes for added roadway. The extra steel at Queensboro Plaza is from the 2nd Avenue El.
Tom
You sent me back to the historic map section of the site with that one. I see there is a connection from the 2nd Ave El over the Queensboro bridge, can anyone provide some info on it? Was it just a spur/shuttle or did some trains begin there and go downtown (or uptown)? And did the trolley cars run at the same time?
Once upon a time:
Some trains going north (not south!) on the 2nd Ave El could make make a turn at 59 St and went out to Queens via the Queensboro/59 St Bridge. The route now used by the upper level car lanes. Some of the trackage can still be seen at either side of the Bridge. Trains could then go to Ditmas Blvd or to Main St. The El was discontinued in 1942.
2nd Ave El trains used Willets Pt not Main St as their terminal on the Flushing Line.
Were the IRT El and Subway cars the same size?
Yes.
The IRT was built to the elevated line lengths and widths at the time.
So maybe the 2nd Ave El trains went to Ditmars or Main St.
Yes. Both the 2nd Ave El and the 42nd St. IRT subway could go to either Corona/Flushing or Astoria. And the Queens IRTs had a physical connection to the other IRT lines.
:-) Andrew
And the Queens IRTs had a physical connection to the other IRT lines.
Until the track going acros the Queensboro Bridge tp the 2nd Ave EL was torn down in 1942.
I'd guess that 2nd ave el trans did not go to Main St. because they were wood and Main St was underground; likewise perhaps too many trains at Main meant congestion so wood trains would turn outdoors. My thought. Size wise the Manhattan el cars were a little smaller than IRT subway cars. But the rooves were higher by 6=7" in the case of the newest 1902-11 cars the rooves were a foot higher [than subway cars] IRT subway cars to this very day 51 feet long, the oldest Manhattan el cars were around 45 ft. and the 1902-11 standards were 47 ft. But former subway "Composites" were used on the els, these also 51 ft. long so any IRT subway cars, and Hudson Tubes too could run on the els.
I'd guess that 2nd ave el trans did not go to Main St. because they were wood
That didn't stop the BMT gate cars and Q-Types from running to Main Street.
IRT el cars were a little shorther than the subway cars, 47' vs 51'.
IRT el trains terminated at Willets Point while BMT el trains terminated at Main Street. I believe that this was do to the amount of wood in the IRT cars. The BMT el cars had somewhat more steel in their construction or so I am told. I can't verify this though.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One of the arguments for saving the 2nd Ave El was that Flushing riders would keep one-train access to all of Manhattan. I believe this worked for a while, but ultimately the el was torn down.
But with the IRT subway going thru the Steinway Tunnel to Manhattan people from Queens were able to access more trains. It's all moot at this point.
>>> But with the IRT subway going thru the Steinway Tunnel to Manhattan people from Queens were able to access more trains. <<<
You seem to forget at that time there was no free transfer between the IRT, BMT and IND. A free transfer at Queensboro Plaza between the IRT and BMT was instituted when the 2nd Avenue El was abandoned in 1942. There still was no free transfer at Times Square until 1948.
Tom
Still it must've been something to take a train from Flushing across the bridge and straight into Manhattan, versus the current setup.
The 2nd ave El should have never been torn down, it should've been modernized and Queensboro Bridge should have been equipped to handle heavier trains. If the 2nd ave el was still there, the Lex would not be overcrowded!
...Queensboro Bridge should have been equipped to handle heavier trains.
The Queensboro has been undergoing an archtectural striptease to reduce its dead and live loads because of structural problems. The latest reconstruction, started in the 1980's, has resulted in removing one automobile lane and a pedestrian path. Even so, nine of the bridge's 10 roadways should be used at one time. There were loading restrictions for both the El and trolley tracks (car weights and spacings), while both were operating.
If the 2nd ave el was still there, the Lex would not be overcrowded!
If the Lex were operating closer to its designed capacity, or at service levels of fifty years ago, the Lex would not be overcrowded.
If the 2nd ave el was still there, the Lex would not be overcrowded!
If pigs could fly.....
If pigs could fly.....They would commute the customers on the East Side.
I would do no such thing!
If you consider the money you'd be making.....you might consider it.
The 2nd Ave el, (or at least the third Ave)should have remained until a replacement subway was built. This way there would have been more of an incentive to build the 2 Ave subway, in order to remove the el. By getting rid of the el before there was a replacement, took away the push to build the subway (along with financial problems). But I still feel that if one of those two els survived longer, no one would have allowed them to remove it before the subway was there to replace it. Of course there would have been alot of people pushing to remove the el from the street also, and what would have been their solution also...the 2nd Ave subway. You would have had both groups pushing for the subway...the transit advocates, and the people wanting the el removed.
You brought back memories with that one. I am now 85 and living in Florida. I remember riding the 2nd ave el which ran from South Ferry to Willits Point. It did not go on to Main Street. The BMT el cars went on into Main Street. The BMT ran trains from Queens Plaza to both Astoria and Flushing as the tracks were not the same gauge with the IRT. I did not live in New York too long but I rode those trains all day for a nickle.
>>> The BMT ran trains from Queens Plaza to both Astoria and Flushing as the tracks were not the same gauge with the IRT <<<
You may be confused or are confusing others. The track gage was the same on all BMT and IRT tracks. Most BMT car bodies were wider, so platforms had to be cut back further. The BMT cars that ran between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria and Flushing were the same width as the narrow IRT cars.
Tom
Wasn't there a large gap between the car and the platform? I guess they weren't as concerned with safety back then.
>>> Wasn't there a large gap between the car and the platform? <<<
Why would there be a large gap? BMT width cars ran where the station platforms were cut back for them and IRT width cars ran where the station platforms were closer to the tracks. Wider cars could not run on IRT track. Narrow cars could run on BMT track, but never did in revenue service. This is the same thing that exists with the present A and B Divisions.
Tom
Oh, that's where I misunderstood, I thought the IRT sized cars were run on the same tracks as the BMT sized cars. I still am confused then about how they shared service on the Astoria and Flushing line. I remember hearing that the stations were "shaved" off when it became part of the B division fully. So how did both the IRT and the BMT both use these lines, did the BMT use narrower cars just for these services?
The answer is YES ... Q cars were used between QBP and the outer reaches ("Q" for "Queens") and the standard-sized BMT cars only ran into QBP from Manhattan. From the QBP facilities, the narrower cars went to Corona and Astoria between the BMT's Q's and the Steinway cars on the IRT side of the world.
Thanks, that clears it up. BTW, on a sort of similar note, were the Myrtle Ave el cars narrower than the rest of the BMT, and did those stations (Bway and south) "stick" out further? If so, wasn't there a gap at the "normal" stations like Central and Knickerbocker, etc where both the Nassau bound trains and Myrtle el cars ran together?
The Q's had a "step plate" on the doors that protuded a bit, about an inch or so above the platform ... there's a picture here that might show how the "problem" was dealt with in less litigious times:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-q/bmtq13.jpg
>>> there's a picture here that might show how the "problem" was dealt with in less litigious times: <<<
And as you can see from this picture when the Q types were operating out of Queensboro Plaza they did not have the added step.
Tom
Nor when they operated on the Third Ave El.
Yep ... that's correct ... the little "trick" allowed them to run on the Myrtle. The lower end had the normal elevated car platform edges while north of Broadway, the standards ran with their requirement of "subway width" ... so to reduce the 6 inch gap for the Q's, they put on those nifty shin kickers. Stand too close to the edge of the platform when a Q rolled in and your feet hurt all day. :)
But out where platforms were cut to (ahem) "IRT width" the cars fit nicely.
If you ran them today, you'd have platform conductors repeating "Watchyerstep, watchyerstep" ad infinitum, litigation notwithstanding.
That issue may well have been the REAL reason behind the Myrt's demise. The cars ran nice and snug with the el platforms but where the MJ joined the M, I can see that it could have been a problem. But yeah, they'd have none of that today.
Thanks, that clears up a question I did wonder about for a while. BTW, that station at Metro sure changed alot! The wooden platform is gone (it burnt in the 70's I think), and there is an empty field to the left.
Yep ... I'm glad I had the pleasure of riding the Myrt before it died. It was interesting how they managed to accomodate both the Q's and the standards on the north end - that's how they did it. Now that others have shown that the Myrt modifications were a non-standard "cob job" that makes it all the more interesting.
You ought to see the gaps between LIRR cars and the platform edge on Track 1 at Flatbush Avenue!
A long ... long time ago when I worked at WLIR-FM, used to take that train out to Hemphead ... dipped if I can remember that but I'll take your word for it. :)
I hadn't in awhile, rode a diamond Q from 57th to Brighton and back again. But I was in the mood and got on the diamond Q at 57th.
Pretty quick ride down the Broadway express, those slants just dust the local stations by.
Had to slow for some track workers around 8th and then on the bridge.
At Dekalb we were held for a few minutes for a connection to the N train, also a slant.
After that the ride was fairly quick and pleasant along the Brighton. Then at Kings Hwy I see those dreadful red flags again, on both express tracks. The train will run on the local track to Brighton.
I get off and switch to the Manhattan bound side. Kings Hwy in that area looks like a major commercial district, and a nice area, but I'll explore that another time.
I have to wait a while for a Manhattan bound diamond Q because there's only one track and it was behind the gleaming beast.
But even leaving quite a few minutes behind that circle Q, we had no problem dusting it by the time we got to Church.
I decided to rest and sit down on the ride back. Everything went normally until just before 34th street. We start to slow down as there are yellow signals ahead. Then a big whoosh and the train comes to a quick stop. The T/O said that a signal that cleared went red, and we got tripped. Believe it or not after all the times I've rode the subway this was my first BIE. The T/O radioed in that he'd have to go down to the roadbed. I guess he had to push the stop arm down and investigate what happened. It only took about 5 minutes and we were on our way.
I feel bad for the guy, isn't it TA policy for anyone who gets tripped by a signal to have to go "downtown".
I guess every T/O experiences this once in a while. I did not see what happened (I was not at the window at the time) but can signals go red all of a sudden from clear (green)?
Yes, If he sayed that the Signal flashed on him he has to chack to see if the trip arm is still up. The worst thing now is that a Signal Mantaner MUST open up the signal to see the working and sit there for 24hours to see if it happen again, or was it just the T/O saying flashed. My friend who is a Signal Mantarer told me this is whats done.
Robert
I went to the KatManDu parking lot in Trenton Monday in hopes of seeing the RBBB circus train leaving Trenton bound for Wilkes-Barre via Harrisburg (for a one hour stop to water the animals). From 6:10 to 7:25 AM, there was no circus train, but I saw a good variety of passenger equipment: AEM7, E60, Acela Express, HHP-8 (Amtrak) and Silverliner IV and AEM7 (SEPTA).
I added photos of ten of these trains to my Webshots "Around Philly 5" page.
What's up with this? Good photo.
Thank, My first photo on the board. I think that the R62 was one of the cars that Derailed after the G.O. about two mouth agao on the 7 line.
Robert
I'd guess it's a fake.
I stand corrected, it's not a fake.
No it's not a fake. I had a work train out of CIY when I saw it.
Robert
Where was this photo taken?
#2154 7 Flushing Local
Based on what's been said in this thread, it would appear to be 17 track in CIYard (that's between the West End ramp and the Inspection shop).
I saw it a month or two ago from a passing train. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it was on an N between 86th and Stillwell (during one of those weekends that the N filled in for the W in one direction so that section of track was accessible to the public).
Getting some new trucks from the truck shop?
Due to the derailment, all the R62A's that actually went on the ground had to go to CI main shop. One night as I was going north at 36/4, I saw the CI transfer consisting of a few redbirds, a few R62A's and a few more redbirds all on the same train going south.
That aint nothing new:
1. Ive seen the 4 line R62 couple to the 4 line R33.
2. Thats an R62a not a R62.
3. That train is back in service on the 7 line. This must have ben awhile back.
That aint nothing new:
1. Ive seen the 4 line R62 couple to the 4 line R33.
2. Thats an R62a not a R62.
3. That car(2154) is back in service on the 7 line. This must have ben awhile back.
Both the R-62/62As and Redbirds have the same H-2-C couplers. Not sure if they're coupled only iron-to-iron or actually run in multiple unit. New York City Subway Cars has a photo of an R-62/62A coupled to an R-21 during a light move.
Well, the end is near for the Howard Beach-JFK Station as we know it. The southbound temporary platform (also decked out in blue) is now in place, as is the makeshift staircase located at the extreme south end of the new southbound plat. Conductors on Far Rock "A" trains now open up on the "off-side" at Howard Beach. I suppose knocking down the existing station walls won't be too far behind.
More glass panes have also been added to the Howard Beach AirTrain terminal. Stay tuned.
Mark
Speaking of which, i noticed the other week there - they're running on one of the old LIRR tracks as a temp thing, it looks. or at least, the rails looked old. Anyone know?
How old are the oldest revune track rails in the subway system, anyway???
I was taking the LIRR out to Freeport this afternoon when we stopped in Woodside. I looked out the window and saw a train of Redbirds on the #7 line. What the hell happened?! The gray paint on the top looked like it was peeling off and the red sides looked no better. It brought back chilling memories of the last days of the Low-V trailers and the R-1s in the seventies. I wonder if the MTA is letting the old cars go to wrack and ruin before they assign them to the scrap heap. If so, it's a dirty shame because they deserved better.
E_DOG
I guess the TA can never win. A number of years ago they painted a few R27's to allow the system to become 100% graffiti free. They were roundly criticized for doing that. Obviously, you want the TA to repaint R33/36 cars which are soon to be reefed? Isn't that a waste of manpower and money to paint a car and scrap it shorty thereafter?
maybe if they were taken care of better .........!!!
I think this is a WF redbird problem, only. It seems like the WF 'birds are not as maintained as the ML 'birds.
Dewd ... it was the 60's and 70's that done'em in ... it's a MIRACLE that they lasted as long as they did given the complete absence of serious maintenance for nearly 20 years during that time. Most of their mates on B division are just as bad even with the benefit of stainless instead of LAHT metal ...
Now that I've had many opportunities to go to Manhattan since December, I just wanted to say that I like the V. I usually get on the E at Jamaica Center and when I go to midtown Manhattan, I usually need to go down 6 Ave. I can transfer to the V-- normally not crowded-- at Queens Plaza by walking across the platform. Before, I would have to switch from the E to an equally crowded F or take the E to 7 Ave and take a B or a D downtown. Then again, I am one of those with a fondness for the underdog.
Let your feelings be known here!
Some people prefer a less-crowded but slower train over one that's faster but more crowded. The V's just right for them.
>> Some people prefer a less-crowded but slower train over one that's faster but more crowded. <<
In my case, though, the V doesn't slow me down apart from the time I might spend waiting for it at Queens Plaza. The E, V, F, R, B, and D make all stops to 34 St anyway. So jumping from an E to a V at Queens Plaza doesn't slow me down on that account. On the other hand, if I don't think a V will be arriving at Queens Plaza within a few minutes, I sometimes still go to 7 Ave and switch to the B or D. There I have a choice of two trains both heading the same way.
FINALLY!!!!! SOMEONE WHO LIKES THE V TRAIN!!! the V train is the best new train to ever hit the subways!got these stupid critics and morons on Queens Blvd cursing it out,ridiculous.they just dont know a easy smooth ride when they see it!they all have a one track mind and that equals "Express".i dont think its that they're ignorant,they're flat out a bunch idiots who were born without brains and MUST make their commutes a fast one cause thats all they know.
I don't think the V is bad. It gives the local stations DIRECT 6th Ave service, whereas they would have to transfer or wind up on Broadway, which isn't the end of the world, but now it gives them more options. Take the R if you want Broadway, or the V if you want 6th.
I don;t mind the V at all since it is not as crowded as the E and F but I hate the R46 cars. They smell like piss-rock like a boat and they're dull-those suckers have to go to the scrapper.
Give me an R32 anyday over an R46.
#3444 V 53 St Local
Amen, man. Those Brightliners can outlast those R46's anyday. Do the R46's have any nickname like the others or what?
the Motormen call R46 the Cadillacs. everyone loves operating them. matter of fact u say the R32s are better than R46s, but at least on R46 u dont have to walk thru the ENTIRE TRAIN to turn a E to a R lets say. all u gotta do to change it to a F would be, destination A, 212 enter. then code 7. then it would say F 6AV CULVER LCL, F TO CONEY ISLAND. if u wanna change it to E to 179, u gotta change the WHOLE TRAIN. takes tooo long! not to mention i am 6'4 with size 17 shoes. now u tell me which cab i am gonna like more. a Transverse cab or a R32 cab. if u say R32 cab, ima say,
IS THAT UR FINAL ANSWER????????????????
R46s are good cars. they are even gonna be overhauled and given AC motors. they will last for a LONG time. i rode them as a kid, im now 19 years old still riding them, and if i get into transit, i will be able to retire with them STILL HERE probably
But you can't read an LCD side sign when the train enters the station. You can read the roll signs. As a passener, I like the R32 more, for that and other reasons, even though the R44s and R46s are the closest class type to what I am used to back home.
I too like the R46 (not the R44 though). They seem to give a smooth quiet ride. I think railfans nickname them Rhinos.
I like the R44/46 class there my favorite in the B division. But i like the R46 better because their quieter and give smoother ride then the R44. Also the R46 brakes dont squeal like R44 brakes. Only thing i like about the R44 is the window guardes by the door that they have. They were on the R46 but were taken out when they went through their overhaul. Anyone know why they took them off of the R46 but left them on the R44?
Adam
Actually, they were removed from the R-44 cars during overhaul but put back soon after. The current windscreens are held by vandal-resistant frames, unlike the originals. For some reason (money?) the R-46s never have gotten windscreens back.
David
I dont understand why they couldn't make LCD signs on the R-142/R143 be as easy to program as the LCD destination signs on the R44/R46. They shouldve just made it the same way. Have everything seperate. So lets say you can have the signs up but turn off the annoucements why does everything have to be tied in together?
I don't like the V train, as I think it's put too much strain on the E line for crowds going to 53rd street, and also inconviences G passengers. I think the old service pattern was better.
As for cars, I think the R-32 is a good fit for the E, as the R-46 is for the V. The R-46 is good for the V as they have lots of comfortable seats, good for selling a train like the V (which I don't like). The R-32s are perfect for the Es, as they are probably the best trains in the system for handling crowds.
Ehey should give E trains a very very bad train even maybe an old bumpy nostagia. V trains should get a R143 or R160 so people can enjoy the smooth ride so more passengers go ride. E might attract more railfans though...but there aren't THAT much of us cuz we're special. =D
They should give E trains a very very bad train even maybe an old bumpy nostagia. V trains should get a R143 or R160 so people can enjoy the smooth ride so more passengers go ride. E might attract more railfans though...but there aren't THAT much of us cuz we're special. =D
If the V has put too much strain on the E, then how is it that E trains are slightly emptier now than they were at the beginning of December?
And if you still don't like the crowds on the E, you have another option if you're going to Queens Plaza, 23rd-Ely, Lex, or 5th.
>> but I hate the R46 cars. <<
And the railfan window is usually blocked with some sort of film or something. That isn't the route's fault though.
From the railpace website:
AMTRAK LOCOMOTIVES FOR SALE: Amtrak has placed six FL9 locomotives for sale. The units, constructed by EMD in 1957, have both diesel and third-rail capability. Amtrak has also placed two CF7 1500 HP locomotives, five GP9 1750 HP locomotives, two GP7 1500 HP locomotives and two SSB1200 locomotives for sale.
-Mark
What's the length on those FL9's - I have a small back yard!
I'll take 2.... I'm sure they'll fit in Coney Island Yard :-)
-Mark
that's right, they have 3rd rail shoes! Now, what about the height? You could use them to revive the Culver Shuttle. Ditmas to 9th Av, Via Stilwell Ave and West End!
I think you'd have to retrofit them with a steering wheel. Most of the culver trackage is gone but if you can steer it, you can make it a surface line maybe. :)
Actually I meant travelling the length of the Culver and West End lines to get between the two points connected by the shuttle. ...As if the El's could support an FL9 and some Horizons...
:-)
Just teasing ... one of my favorite questions over the years in various cabs was "where's the steering wheel?" Amazingly, even some adults have asked that one. :)
"where's the steering wheel?"
Isn't that what the handbrake is for?
I think the most fun I could possible have operating at Shoreline would be to give an ENTIRE tour containing 100% WRONG information.
And then hit myself upside the head, muttering "Take the pills, Tiger!"
It's why I mainly work as foreman of the trench digging subsection, Comm.& Signal Dept.
Heh. Well, one of your guys from the 3/4 tonners can tell you what an incredibly bad idea it would be to turn me loose with a megaphone up yonder. When I did the TA thing, there was a BIT more of a sense of humor. I woulda shown up for the gig wearing dark shades and a cane getting into the cab after tapping at the doors, the storm door, some legs and then ease into the cab, sending the whole car bailing out the winders as it lurched forward. Heard the story in schoolcar of someone who pulled that number and I hear they're STILL telling that story in schoolcar about how the TA has no sense of humor. :)
I imagine that'd go double for Branford.
There was the thread on this board a year ago about the "Blind" T/O on the M with the cane....
To paraprhase "it ISN'T a cane, it's so I can reach the punch buttons" ... yeah, that was STILL a great story since the individual was (fortunately) never personally identified in public and subjected to public ridicule, it made for one of my all-time favorite stories here. I *live* for inside humor like that. But I remember a tale of a guy in school car who did that as a joke one morning and had his asp handed to him for doing it. ANOTHER great story though.
Jesus, what are they going to use for MoW service now? Oh wait, that's right, they don't have any money for MoW.
58 feet 8 inches, coupler to coupler
Since the LIRR gave up its 3 FL9AC's which are now waiting its fate at Croton-Harmon, they can buy 3 for spares, and rebuild the C-1's as a special train to Montauk to which they are possibly planning.
Wasn't the LIRR also looking into some Amtrak coaches to replace the old parlor cars they used to have? Do they still have Hampton Reserve service. WHy would someone pay extra to be in the same sort of coach everyone else is in?
"WHy would someone pay extra to be in the same sort of coach everyone else is in?"
1) Elbow Room.
2) No Roudy Kids.
That is enough
No, they can rebuild the C-1's completely with the airplane type interiors (seats and armrests) to make them like the old type parlor cars. Also, they just have to do some exterior markings to make them such along with being in the 3000 series (3001-3010). If you look at the differences between the C-1 and C-3, the windows are larger on the C-1's, the doors are 2 split window, different restroom placement, no digital announcement screen and announcements, darker interior, different coupler (Ohio Brass the same as the M-1, M-3 and NYCTA R-44 and R-46) and being a 2-car set instead of a single to account for some of the differences.
The question that *I* answered was "Why Pay More to ride in a car that was jsut the same..."
Yes, a nice parlour car would be great and could collect more money, particurlarly if you had a steward service "Orange Juice" and some nice sandwhiches or something. The LIRR Parlour cars that I have ridden on were no bargain, since the seats while bigger were much more uncomfortable than those in coach. AMTK continues this tradition in it's parlour/lounge/observation cars, mostly on purpose so that people would circulate back to their seats so that others may also use the lounge cars.
Elias
That was tried last month. Amfleet, which got at least as far as Jay, were found to be hopelessly incompatible with the DE/DM engines.
Amfleet, which got at least as far as Jay, were found to be hopelessly incompatible with the DE/DM engines.
"Great" engines the LIRR bought.........
Send those FL-9s to the LIRR. Their DE/DMs are not doing well. (as always)
When LIRR had the 3 RLW FL-9's, their MDBF was around 1,900 miles.
They are also selling 3 E60MA's. #'s 605, 606 and 607. Amtrak has listed no minimum bid for any of these locomotives so maybe a subtalker could walk away w/ a piece of history.
Greetings, all...
I'm happy to announce that, after a long gap, my Nth Ward site has been updated.
First and foremost are the new message boards. The Graffiti Wall and the Urban Transit Forum have been resurrected from the dead, while the Architecture Forum is brand-new. All forums feature an upgraded version of the WebBBS script, which includes some safeguards against the off-topic spam I was dealing with in the past. Among those safeguards: 1) Anybody who wishes to post a message must create a profile, and 2) The profile must have a valid e-mail address. Follow the link to "Forum Rules / FAQ" for information on how to create a profile.
A quick description of the three message boards:
Graffiti Wall: A general discussion board where all are welcome to discuss a wide range of issues, or to simply keep in touch with me.
Architecture Forum: Where to discuss all aspects of architecture, design, urban planning, and current issues in the design community. This would be a prime spot to discuss elevators, skyscraper design, and new plans for the WTC site, as opposed to clogging up SubTalk with such things.
Urban Transit Forum: The place to discuss all aspects of public transportation, with a particular focus on mass transit and transit design. Very similar to SubTalk, but with more of a focus on Chicago transit.
Also, I've stripped out some of the perpetually "under construction" content on the main site. At one time I envisioned the Nth Ward as becoming the premiere independent website about urban life in Chicago. I had some great ideas in mind for the site, but just didn't have the time or energy to follow through. Also, with me planning a move to Philadelphia soon, it would be rather difficult to keep a Chicago-themed site current from 770 miles away. For now, the Nth Ward is essentially a personal homepage, but I may expand its mission into something more ambitious in the future.
As always, feel free to let me know if you have any questions or comments.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
David -
Good to see you've been working on your web site again. I hope all is well with you and your upcoming move.
-- Ed Sachs
I've read a lot of articles on the Second System but I have not come across any mention of this. On the A/C south of B'way/East NY (Junction) are two bellmouths/cutouts in the tunnel walls. One for the southbound (1tk.) and one for the northbound (2tk.). They don't go far into the wall and appear to be in the vicinity of Pennsylvania Avenue. Pennsylvania Ave. could have been the route for a new line. This could have been part of a later plan since this was one of the later built sections of the IND. Maybe this proposed line was to rival and then eliminate the L line to Canarsie. Just like other parts of the IND were to do to other elevateds. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I think it was the start of a proposed Jamaica Ave subway line. I read that in "THE HISTORY OF THE IND". A green covered book which is out of print. But I think I saw a copy of it at "Penn Books". A bookstore in the passageway between the IND 8th ave line and the LIRR waiting room/IRT 7th Ave line at Penn Station.
I was looking at this map http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1948_a.gif
It seems to show a branch off the 3rd Avenue el at Fordam road to the what I guess is the Bronx Zoo. Is that correct? Was there a spur at that point or is it just trying to show access to the zoo?
I believe, but am not sure, that the route used to run towards the Zoo, and then when they built the extention it branched off the other way. I could be wrong, but I thought i remember hearing that somewhere. I'm sure someone will correct me.....
The Bronx Zoo was served by 2 lines:
1) 3rd Av El by a short spur just past Fordham Road.
2) White Plains Road line by a spur just past the E177th St station(now E. Tremont Av)
I don't know the exact dates of service.
The Third Avenue line was extended to Bronx Park on May 21, 1902.
The West Farms line to Bronx Park was opened on November 26, 1904, but connected only to the El. The subway connection opened on July 10, 1905.
The White Plains Road line was opened as a shuttle from 177th using el cars on March 3, 1917. Subway thru-service would only begin on May 20, 1928.
The Webster Avenue El was opened to Gun Hill Road on July 1, 1917.
The Bronx Park branch of the Third Avenue line closed on November 15, 1951 with the rest of the line closing on April 28, 1973.
The Bronx Park branch of the West Farms line closed on August 4, 1952.
>>The Bronx Park branch of the Third Avenue line closed on November 15, 1951 .....<<
Gee, I was 9 days old when that happened.
I was being introduced to the world when the last 3rd Ave El train was leaving City Hall.
Chatham Square or City Hall,,, we can see you're a few years older or younger? Luckily I was old enough at least to ride the 3rd Ave El on its last day May 12, 1955, a week after my 12th birthday. !Yo naci el cinco de mayo! Wish I had done so sooner...I'd have been a regular had I known how much fun it was.
I used to ride the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave El with my father..my father's hobby was photography, and I've seen pictures of myself at 7 years old on the 3rd Ave El, even a short 8mm movie of me standing on the platform of 200th Street while a World's Fair car goes by :)
I remember being scared of the 3rd Ave El, because the cars were old and dingy and ominous looking, plus it was a rickety structure...it would really move when a train was coming..same with the Myrtle Ave. El in Brooklyn, we would take that to visit my father's godfather who lived near Classon Ave...ANOTHER rickety line.
Hi Ed,
I wasn't the last C/R to operate the last revenue train on the Bronx portion of the Third Ave. "L" but I was lucky enough to be the last C/R to operate the museum Low-V cars on the final fan trip on April 28, 1973. I was fresh out of school car and extremely nervous about what to do if anything goes wrong. I remember an RCI by the name of Johnny Hornak (I hope I spelled his name correctly) said "Don't worry about anything, I'll be with you all the way". What a great trip. I'm only sorry that there would be no encores.
Sincerely,
Bob
I had one fantrip of Low-V's but a few years previous, I'm glad you had a chance to run them in passenger service, at least on a fantrip.They were dandy weren't they; wish I had the chance to run them inservice on Lex and West Side expresses' wish I had he chance to run High-V's there, the MUDC's on the el..oh well, maybe if there's an afterlife.
I'm not sure if you know the guy, but Martin Begley was my Motorman on the last train on the Third Ave. El. back on April 28th, 1973. He was a Motorman's Motorman, pressed pin stripes, black silk hat and badge. Those were the days. Today, the ones that operate the trains don't need hangers for their uniforms; they're so crusty and dirty that they stand in the corner without any help.
Take care, Ed.
Yours friend,
Bob
No I didn't know Mr. Begley but I know what you mean by the garb.If nothing else crewmembers do wear a uniform now; I think you can share memories of what some of the cool cats who brought the revolution to work with them in the 70's wore. It got so out of hand a notice was put out from on high about it Thankfully those days didn't last long. The IRT with most terminals in the Bronx and a lot of new, young help,was the worst.There was too little discipline or sense of authority, at least that's how I saw it. The B division was a lot better.
Just curious -- does anyone know if these stub branches has 24x7 service, or only part-time service?
-- Ed Sachs
You're coorect, the original line was the "branch" which was abandoned in later years. The line going from Fordham to Gun Hill (via 200/204/210) was a newer section.
I don't have them handy now, byt the "Tracks of New York" series put out by the ERA describes the situation well in one of the volumes.
Thanks, I thought I remembered hearing that somewhere.
Botanical Garden was the original end of the Suburban Line, or the Third Avenue El. The station was magnificent, with a dome resembling the adjacent Botanical Garden's main hothouse. There was also a wide pedestrian bridge eastward from the station across the New York Central tracks (several blocks south of their Botanical Gardens Station) to Webster Avenue, which had trolley service both to McLean Avenue in Woodlawn Heights and to the Westchester Trolley A and B lines on White Plains Road. Both lines ran north on Webster Avenue, with the White Plains road portion making the transition to White Plains Road itself across Gun Hill Road. The Third Avenue Elevated's bicycle cars brought many weekend riders to the Botanical Gardens station so that they could ride the local dirt roads in the pleasant countryside.
The elevated line that later crossed the New York Central tracks and ran northward to Gunhill Road and thence eastward to White Plains Road was the "spur". Third Avenue elevated trains that did not terminate at Botanical Gardens ran all the way to 241st Street and White Plains Road. The El used the west pocket at that location. The White Plains Road line had dual third rails and dual trippers north of Gun Hill Road.
Sorry I don't know how to create a direct link, but this article is quite interesting about the future of inter city
rail
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/04/business/04ROAD.html?tntemail1
<<
All over the country, ambitious new intercity rail projects are being envisioned, often by states in partnership with private industry. In California, speedy rail service between San Diego and Los Angeles is going to be extended up to San Francisco. In the Midwest, work has already begun on a big high-speed rail project that will link Chicago and other cities in nine states. In Florida, plans are advancing for a high-speed link between Orlando and Miami. In Texas, there's talk of a high-speed link between Houston and Dallas.
At the heart of this new activity is a growing awareness among transportation planners that business travel demand in the United States is, at least, somewhat similar to Continental Europe, where a vast network of national high-speed train systems has nearly eliminated air trips between cities less than 400 miles apart.
>>
Now this is the type of stuff I like to hear!
Before the elimination of double letters in ’85,did the side destination and route signs on the R16 to R38 class cars look the same as today (for example, instead of (R) qns blvd/bway/4av, it said (RR) Astoria/bway/4av)? If so, when were they changed to replace the original signs? Thanks for any info,
B63Mike
The R-32s and R-38s originally had the same information as the R-1/9 side route signs; i. e., N/Broadway Express, AA/8th Ave. Local, etc. The R-16s followed this theme, but had number routes on their curtains: 14/Broadway-Brooklyn Local; 15/Jamaica Express; 15/Jamaica Local, etc. The R-27/30s originally had a combination of original Southern Division title and "Broadway", thus you had Q/Broadway-Brighton Express; N/Broadway-Sea Beach Express; T/Broadway-West End Express; RR/Broadway-4th Ave. Local, etc.
More like the route letter and Manhattan trunk route, that's it, the all thing color-keyed. RR was Broadway Local
Mike: Most of the R-16s that I remember only had numbered routes for the BMT Eastern Section. After Chrystie Street they were equipted with a new roll signs which had all (or most) of the lettered route in about fifteen different route colors. The R-32's had both IND and BMT route letters but did not exactly duplicate the IND R 1-9's IND routes.(No B,DD,FF) before Chrystie Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Plus, they had the never-used MM in green....found that one day in 1983 in a rollsign-changing mood...confused me then, still don't get it now where its terminals would have been, and what route it would have taken, except for the obvious Metropolitan Ave. terminal.
I sorta think it would have been a rush-hour Chambers to Metro. Ave special, like the Broadway Brooklyn Short Line...
Any ideas from the board?
AFAIK the MM was intended to be a rush hour-only service from 57th St. to Metropolitan Ave. via the now-unused Houston-to-Delancey connector.
Ah...a route made possible by Chrystie St.
Makes sense, thanks.
Under that scenario, the KK would have run to Broad Street (during QJ-era) or Coney Island (afterward).
No, i think the original idea was to have both the KK & MM service 6th Ave and the Broadway el. perhaps the low ridership of the KK by itself defeated this plan.
Tony: The MM route was intended to run between 57 St-6Av and Metropolitan Av on the Myrtle Av Line. It never ran as such but every morning two KK trains ran from 57/6 to Metropolitan and laid up in the Fresh Pond Yard. I rode this service and they did indeed carry KK signs. The train was composed of R 1-9's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The KK went to Broadway Junction/ENY normally, right?
Or was it one of those Eastern Division services that had multiple terminals?
Actually the KK ran between 57/6 and 168 St-Jamaica from 1968 to 1972. There were two p/i from 111 St with additional turns at Atlantic Av,Eastern Pkwy and Rockaway Pkwy. As well as the aforementioned Metropolitan Av runs. If you would like a detailed service history of both the KK and K look up a posting that I made on October 21,1999 at 20:21:01. If its not there e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com. Post is titled "A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE K AND KK SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info guys. How did the side route signs look between 1983 and 1985?
B63Mike
The 1983-88 side signs made no mention of a route other than it's trunk line designation:
A 8th Ave Express
B Ave of Americas (6th Ave) local
G Brooklyn-Queens crosstown local
J Nassau St. local
They were vey similar to today's redbird side signs.
So, why is it today that the R32 (and presumably R38) side signs for the (G) read "Queens Blvd./Crosstown"? I should think that "Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown" would have it covered.
:-) Andrew
Maybe that's why the R-32s aren't assigned to the G. Incorrect roll
signs for M-F 0500>2030.
:-) Sparky
Maybe so that people would think it is a crosstown train going along Queens Blvd.
The #4 line has all R62's with exception of a few R33's. We all know that the R62's are coupled into 5 car sets. Now with a few cars destroyed in the Union Square wreck in 1991, you have cars 1436-1440. I know that 2 of them were scrapped due to being destroyed. Is this set in a 3 car set, are they in singles, or is it set up as a 6 car set in other pairs? Now I am not including R62A's, because I already know what they consist of, I just want to know the R62 situation.
For the set 1436-1440, only 1438 survives. Also because of the same wreck, 1435 is also retired. 1438 replaces 1435 in the set 1431-1435.
Offically 1435, 1436, 1437, 1439, and 1440 are retired. They are not in service anymore.
Chaohwa
Just a reminder. Concourse Yard hosts B-division cars. Sometimes R62s stay there. Jerome Yard is R62's official home. Calling R62 Jerome fleet is much better than R62 Concourse fleet.
Chaohwa
I sure Train Dude and his crews have enough of a challenge keeping the R-68's running in top shape as his yard does, don't go giving them more work!!!!
Train Dude and his crews are very proud of their maintanance on Concourse R68s. They have done a great job.
Chaohwa
I should of thought of the Jerome R62's and the Concourse R68's. My memory bank got screwed up. Thanks for the input guys, especially you Chaohwa.
Regarding the R68's at Concourse which is home to the B and D, major repairs take place still at Coney Island though, right?
Almost all the work required by the fleet can be done there. Wash, inspection the joe kinda stuff...
The cars involved in that wreck are at Concourse. I saw them on the Redbird Trip.
207th, not Concourse, my bad.
All cars but #1436 should be gone. 1436 remains at 207th St out of service. 1436 may live another day to be placed in the set of Cars 1366-70, which remains to be seen. Another R-62, Car 1369 was wrecked two years ago at Fordham Rd on the middle track. It currently resides at Concourse Yard at a bumping block.
I believe 1440 may have been scrapped on site the night of the wreck (can't recall for sure). 1437 sat in two pieces at Concourse Yard for just about 10 years until it was carted off in 2001.
1435 and 1439 were also at 207th St until last year. 207th St Yard got swept clean of cars that no longer served a purpose. 1435's end may have been (or will be) transplanted onto another R-62. Car 1370 needs a new end after the Fordham Collision.
-Stef
At about 20:50 yesterday, I spotted 8101..8105+8155..8159 passing through DeKalb on the SB N&R. Test run? a start of their expansion beyond the Canarsie line?
Just saw this morning at about 10:30AM a pair of IRT Redbirds one car number 777_? layed up on first layup track in front of a 8 car R-143
train
Any idea why these cars are there?
Thank You
Someone has posted yesterday. They are R26's 7770-7771.
Chaohwa
Here is the original post. You can look at its followings for details.
Chaohwa
There is an old abandoned train station (and I believe some track) that you can plainly see from the N.E.C. tracks when the train (southbound) is stopped in the Elizabeth station. Anyone here know what line that was part of, and where did it go?
Central RR of NJ later known as CNJ. The northern subsidiary of RDG (56% stock control) in turn 41% owned by B&O prior o "Aldene plan" today's "Raritan Line" trains terminated in Jersey City.
That was the Jersey Central Line that used to run from Bound Brook and west to Jersey City on the site of Liberty State Park. It also saw Reading service to Philadelphia and earlier than that, the B&O's "Royal Blue" used to compete for the Washington traffic.
Service on the line was reduced to a shuttle after CNJ and RDG trains were rerouted into Newark via Lehigh Valley trackage about 1967.
Part of the route is now the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in Bayonne.
Part of the route is now the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in Bayonne.
Freight service is still active along the route used by the HBLR and continuing further south past the current end of the HBLR at 34th Street. (The freight uses a separate track.) Of course, through service to Elizabeth would require removal of the supermarket and replacement of the bridge.
The Shore Line Trolley Museum (AKA Branford), East Haven, Conn. will host a Trolley Pageant on Saturday & Sunday, June 22/23.
We will be celebrating the early years of the urban street railway in America. Trolleys and elevated railway cars 100 years or more will be showcased with exibits, demonstrations and photo opportunities. Parade of cars representing the trolley era, 3 times daily. Admission includes unlimited rides,demonstrations and exibits. Info: [203] 467~6927,www.bera.org.
Big Lou from Brooklyn and Sparky will be operating
on both days. Stop by and say howdy.
Also you can email us privately.
:-) Sparky
Do members still get in free?
Karl,
Just present your current pass to the ticket office, we do have to
count your presense. Regular & Associate Membership includes
admission for the Member only. Family membership is for the
immediate family. For membership information: www.bera.org
:-) Sparky
Or email the museum at BERASLTM@AOL.COM
As soon as I find out what cars are in the pageant I'll post it. As of two weekends ago, they didn't know.
The Trolley Parade at the Illinois Railway Museum is July 4. Lots of fun but I won't make it this year.
The IRM Trolley Pageant (watch me work my self-serving magic!) should be pretty impressive this year. There are several pieces of equipment that have not been in recent Pageants, including:
Chicago Aurora & Elgin interurban #308, which will make its official operational debut on July 4th and will be available for rides after the Pageant;
Milwaukee Electric steeplecab #L4, which has undergone recent motor work and will join sister steeplecab #L7;
Chicago Transit Authority #6655-6656, which were not in last year's Pageant because they had just arrived back from the shooting of the movie "Ali" and didn't have the trolley poles put back on.
There are also rumors around the IRM Car Shop that other exotic equipment - including Milwaukee Electric container car #M37, Milwaukee Electric dump trailer #F208, and possibly even the fabled "Electroliner" - may make it into the Pageant.
All equipment assignments are subject to change without notice. But you knew that. :-)
Frank Hicks
The Electroliner????? Oooo... I'd definately make the trip out to see her running. What's the current status of the 'Liner? Last I heard, she had a nasty habit of blowing her motors.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
As far as we know, the 'Liner still has the nasty habit of blowing motors. We just haven't run it in about eight years, which is why you haven't heard anything about bad motors! The possible inclusion of the 'Liner is just a rumor but, since it does actually have four good motors it can run on, it is a possibility. You may not want to get your hopes up, though.
Frank Hicks
Thanks for the info. Too bad I'm not sticking around in Chicago much longer... Otherwise I'd eventually like to help get the 'Liner restored to her former glory.
-- David
Chicago, IL
AFAIK the Electroliner has had bodywork done since IRM acquired it.
Yes - significantly so. It was returned to its true Electroliner configuration, not the heavily modified form it was in as a Liberty Liner on the P&W.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right that IRM had to do a lot of body work to the 'Liner to restore it to its North Shore configuration. The biggest parts of this were to remove the doors that were cut into the center coach car by Red Arrow (its platforms weren't long enough to span both the doors in the ends cars), and to restore the street-level boarding steps and associated skirting. We still have at least one of the Red Arrow side doors that was removed... last I saw it, the door was under a small forklift preventing it from sinking into the mud.
Current work is focusing on one of the end cars, which has problems with rusted carlines and ceiling panels. The ceiling has been taken down and welding work has been done to repair the carlines. There is fundraising going on to buy new upholstery for the entire train, and of course the ever-present motor work is ongoing.
Frank Hicks
I have a copy of a railroading magazine from 1991 with an article on the return of IRM's Electroliner to museum operation. It began with a recollection of the final North Shore revenue trip on that same unit in January of 1963, and goes on to mention that both 'Liners had been patched up with more than 1000 pounds of Bondo over the years by the Red Arrow folks. There was also a detailed description of the amount of bodywork done at IRM, and that the interior still needed work. I saw the 'Liner in 1996 and thought it looked pretty good from the outside.
I also understand the Electroliners have true railfan seats at each end.
The railfan seats in the 'Liners are really nice. Those things have cramped little cabs for the motorman, but that means that the railfan seat is right behind the front window - no bulkhead, vestibule or anything in the way, you're right at the window. Must have been pretty neat to ride those things at 100mph+!
Frank Hicks
I remember riding in the railfan seat in the 'Liner, more than once, when they were in revenue service. And Electroburgers in the café car... I was just a young 'un, but I do remember!
Now if my father could just find the 4x5 negative that goes with the 8x10 he has of me on the steps of 709 in Milwaukee... I was small enough then that I don't remember that ride, just from the picture.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it's anything like last year you'll see stuff 100 years old, plus more recent items like a PCC or a BrilLiner. 1227/G or some other El/subway car/train may also be included, e.g. we have a operating Interurban that has first class & coach sections (mechanically she needs some work, but structurally she's in fine shape).
Mr rt__:^)
Would that be North Shore 709, per chance?
Steve,
Sorry to say, it would not be North Shore #709, those motors have
never been dried after the flood of December, 1992. What Thurston
was refering to was Montreal & Southern Counties #9.
But we want those in the area, to come and see what we have done
and are doing at Branford on June 22nd or 23rd. We'll be awaiting
your arrival.
:-) Sparky
You mean 709 isn't running anymore? Oooooohhhhhhhh nooooooooooooo.
I remember seeing it run back in 1980 during the August Trolley Festival. Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it out at the end of the month. October 13 will be the only chance I have.
Steve,
Regretfully 709 is Blue Flagged.
See ya in October.
:-) Sparky
"Regretfully 709 is Blue Flagged."
Just curious - what are blue flags used for at Branford?
At IRM, blue flags are placed in front of equipment that is being worked on during the time the blue flag is present. In other words, you put a blue flag in front of the car while you crawl under it, and then remove the blue flag when you go to lunch. If a car cannot be moved for mechanical (or other) reasons, it is red-tagged. A red tag is put on the car in an obvious location listing the defect, and in some cases stating the circumstances in which the car can or cannot be moved (for instance, if a car's brakes are bad, it can often still be towed around). It has been made clear to us that blue flags are temporary and are not to be used as red tags, which is why I'm curious as to what you guys do.
Frank Hicks
Frank, John is mis-using the term blue flag. The blue flag
has the usual definition at Branford. Besides protecting
a worker on, under or atop the car, it will be used to
temporarily prohibit movement of the car if a worker has left
the car in an unsafe state (e.g. the brake rigging is disconnected).
For longer term disabilities, there is usually a note affixed
to each controller.
709 has two motors cut out (low megger readings because of flood
damage) and bad string banding, so it is restricted to 5 MPH.
In its heyday, 709 could do up to 80-90 mph. High speed on the North Shore wasn't limited to just the Electroliners.
Did the motors on 2775 suffer the same fate?
Yes, the motors of 2775 are also in poor condition, but then again
so is the rest of the car.
The last I heard, we were volunteers, not employed professionals, so a term may be "mis-applied". I should have said OOS }Out Of Service.
I stand corrected.
:-) Sparky
The last I heard, we were volunteers, not employed professionals, so a term may be
"mis-applied". I should have said OOS }Out Of Service. I stand corrected.
:-) Sparky
Read your rule book Sparky, blue flag has to be removed by the person who put it there.
Kinda hard on some cars like the Yonkers Sweeper since the person who put the car there can't remove (in your terms) blue flag now can they??
;-P
Picky...Picky...everyone else is so ASSIDUOUS. Well no Merit Raise
this fiscal year. >G<
:-) Sparky
"Read your rule book Sparky, blue flag has to be removed by the person who put it there."
Just like the "lock out" or "tag out" rules that apply in industry (OSHA). Each supervisor or tradesman on a job puts his own lock on (the switch, valve, control or whatever) and he is the only one who can remove it. So you may see a peice of equipment with a device with several locks on it.
When the last lock is removed, it is safe to use the device.
I have seen varrious kinds of blue flags applied to reaiway equipment, and sometimes on the track in front of such a car to prohibit another untt from coupling up to it.
Safety First!
Elias
I will try to attend.
--Mark
Mark,
We will look forward to your joining us. Hence, we will have professional videotography of certain SubTalkers doing their thing.
:-) Sparky
I hate to remind you Sparky about a certain show (Public Access in Manhattan) you've appeared on while at BERA!!
Then there was that great shot of my butt for Transit Transit closing credits to roll over my large ase.
Me talking to "Rapid Rabbit", wasn't my thing. I stand on the side
and highlight the significance of the unit. I'm just the voice
in the background explaining. That was a poor representation of
myself, being interviewed. Hey I'm not the "bag". >G<
But I'll have to admit I missed your hindend on "Transit~Transit".
As for my comment to Mark Feinman and his videotography, don't pose us, just aim and record. :-)
:-) Sparky
Without sounding redundant, just a memorandum about this weekend at Branford...If you're going to one of the Bus Events, we'll look forward to seeing you on Sunday. :-)
The Shore Line Trolley Museum (AKA Branford, East Haven, Conn. will host a Trolley Pageant on Saturday & Sunday, June 22/23.
We will be celebrating the early years of the urban street railway in America. Trolleys and elevated railway cars 100 years or more will be showcased with exibits, demonstrations and photo opportunities. Parade of cars representing the trolley era, 3 times daily. Admission includes unlimited rides,demonstrations and exibits. Info: [203] 467~6927,www.bera.org.
Big Lou from Brooklyn and Sparky will be operating on both days. Stop by and say howdy.
:-) Sparky
If you've seen Spiderman, you've probably noticed that the very first scene features a train of WF Redbirds cruising along the concrete Queens Blvd. viaduct. They make a second appearance later on and as an added treat, the Subway Series cars are visible! I couldn't make out the lettering, but there was no mistaking the white banner on the car side.
I love the unmistakeably Queens scenery of the movie.
:-) Andrew
The bus scene was filmed in Queens near the 7.
Obviously... I wished I'd seen Spiderman! Maybe I'l get when it comes out for DVD...
It's still in theaters.
I saw a skell selling DVD's of Spiderman and other new releases today. He was selling them off of a card table at the corner of Houston and Varick, right by the Brooklyn-bound entrance to the 1 and 2.
And the r62/a's on the 3 line have a cameo
in "13 Conversations..."
Not being an expert, I was wondering if there is any info or photos on these interesting new express buses running on this express route from Midtown to Queens. I've noticed them on 6th and did a double-take.
Woops! Wrong Board
I meant to post on BusTalk
Sorry!
How about asking in BusTalk?
I know the NY Division gathering is on the third Friday. Is the NYC Urban Transit Club still meeting on the fourth Saturday of the month? And where are they meeting at these days?
Anyone find it slightly odd that the image of on the TA's main page is that of an R-110B. Do they even run them any more?
Has anyone seen these in passenger service lately?
I think I spotted a set at 207 St. Yard while on the recent Redbird fantrip.
Sharp sighting!!! R110B which had a battery box explosion at 180th that put two in hospital sits in the 207th yard. R110A sits in Pitkin. The R110B was undergoing 'ressurection' to make up for the lack of a R142 trainset until the 'accident.' We're grateful for the Grace of the Lord that the CIs and vendors survived...the explosion rocked the building, resulting in a whole new set of guidelines to service nickel/cadmium storage batteries. CI Peter
The R110B is B division, R110A is A division. I assume you got your letters mixed up.
Flatbush Terminal
Flatbush Terminal
First Posting In a While, Here Goes:
Now on the Property:
R-142As 7626-7630 (these had been delayed), 7651-7655, 7661-7665.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Yes, keep 'em coming!
George:
I am looking forward to your next update. Keep up the good work.
Destined for the 2 or for the 5?
you mean are they destined for 4. R142As for the 4 and 6 lines only. The R142s are for the 2 and 5 lines and possibly the 3 when all the redbirds are gone from the 2 and 5. Are these the first R142As for the 4? I hope so it would be nice to see some R142As on the 4. I believe the 6 got all there's now or are close to it.
Adam
My mistake. Somehow my eyes skipped over the A. I really need to get more sleep.
7626-30 and 7651-55 are out road testing as we speak.
-Stef
Cars 6951-60 have started doing road simulations for #5 service.
-Stef
Yes 6951-60 was doing simulations since Sun.
Are they road testing on the 4 line? If I'm not mistaken, 7651-55 should be the first five-car set on the 4.
I believe so, but I am unable to confirm this as of yet. Stay tuned...
-Stef
Will do. I'm riding the Lex today to go to Princeton Review, so maybe I'll see them there. Maybe. . .
I read on a post that the brooklyn trolly project resumed. my question is. will this trolly be for regular service or will this be a nastalgic run? i mean only running a few times a month or everyday? i say if it runs everyday people will treat it like they treat regular trains, and TRY TO DESTROY IT. with all the grafitti yuck. but i know that railffans would just love the ride. i cant wait. oh one more question any idea when it will be compleated?
IIRC, the plan is to provide Red Hook with regular transit service to Downtown Bklyn. As for being completed, that will probably happen right about the same time that the subways are completed.
For more info, you might search for posts by Bob D or do a Google search for BHRA.
Or, come to think of it, you might check this thread.
when did the term redbird first used? and with what car had the pleasure of being called redbird for the first time
The beginning of the end of the classic Low Vs began the day the R 29s arrived, the first true Redbirds. These and the Bluebirds (on the Flushing line) made the IRT 95% SMEE for several more years. The Redbirds are the last link to a glorious IRT past.
FWIW I was of the opinion that these cars were initially manufactured and built by the St. Louis Car Company....then later duing a major overhaul painted red...hence the name "Redbird". St. Louis Cardinals and Redbirds. Like baseball and apple pie.
That's a good analogy - St. Louis Cardinals/Car Company and Redbirds. I never thought of that.
I remember reading an article in the NY Newsday when they started rebuilding them in the 80's...they were called "Silverfoxes" because of the new paint jobs...I personally never heard the term "redbird" till I came onto this board.
You know, the term "Silver Fox" fell into such disuse that for a few years I thought I was dreaming that the term "Silver Fox" actually existed.
You are correct about the term being attributable to the SILVER roof and FOX red sides of the paintjobs, however.
IIRC, when the R-10s were painted green after overhaul, they were dubbed The Green Hornets -- a nice resurrection of the monicker given to the old BMT aluminum experimental built by Pullman.
"... term being attributable to the SILVER roof and FOX red sides ..."
Adam, good point !
Let have a trivia test, what's the origin of:
- Silverliners
- Silver Bullets
- Brightliners
- Strait Jackets
- Cadilacs
- Rinos
- Hippos
- Standards
- Q types
First person to get all nine right gets a 50 cent tour of a local bus depot.
Mr rt__:^)
NOTICE: I'll be off-line Fri., Sat. & Sun., so the quiz ends at 7 AM Monday.
Mr rt__:^)
As trainbuff said, the R29s were the first red cars upon delivery in 1962. I don't recall whether the TA called them "Redbirds" in the press notice but the August 1962 NY Division ERA Bulletin, they are referred to as "Redbirds."
Ah, but the real question is: did anyone say at the time, either verbally or in print, "Hello Redbirds"?:-)
Most of us were saying, "Bye, Lo-Vs." :(
And many were saying "you can put red paint on a bread box, but..."
Seriously.
No, they called them "Silver foxes", remember??
Tony: The "Silver Fox" nickname was used by the then TA President who I believe was David Gunn when the first R-types returned from the GOH in the new scheme. It didn't last very long and the cars quickly went back to their old moniker, "Redbirds".
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for confirming that..I actually never heard the term "redbird" till I joined this board.
Larry, do you have any idea about when the term "Redbird" began to commonly used to describe the class of pre-stainless cars, so that nowaways even the New York Times calls them that?
Up until the time I moved out of the City in 1972 none of the IND or postwar cars were called by names that I can recall, except that some called the R33 and R36 WF cars "World's Fair Cars," like the earlier Steinway WFs.
Far as I can recall you just called them by their contract numbers, "R29," not "redbird," "R32," not "Brightliner," etc. I think it was resistance to what was then perceived as silly TA public relations names.
I think that the "Brightliners" were the first post merger cars that had a 'name' from their birth.
The BMT had the Green Hornet and the Bluebirds.
The World Fair Cars (R33-36) came *after* the R-32s, and may have been called "Bluebirds" but this is not seen in my 1964 subway map that has a whole big write-up on the "World's Fair Special Subway Car" and that *would* seem to be the place to hang such a name.
As far as I know (and I *don't* know since I moved out of the city in '83) Cars of this ilk were only called "redbirds" (probably in homage to the old BMT Bluebirds) only after the GOHs.
I do remember that the 27s-30s were painted Pullman Green and had nice pink seats on the inside, and I thought that these were the cat's meow back in the early 60's.
I remember riding one of them to Whitehall Street when I joined the Navy in '66.
Elias
I remember riding one of them to Whitehall Street when I joined the Navy in '66.
I remember Whitehall Street, and it was probably R27s that took me there.
But when I actually reported for service, it was at Ft. Hamilton, and I treated myself to a taxi. After that, Sam paid for my transportation. :(
I probably rode on a train of R-27/30s from 34th St. to Whitehall St. on July 21, 1965, since those cars no doubt ran on the RR and QT lines. OTOH I vivdly remember transferring from what was most likely an N of R-32s to an RR of R-27/30s on April 30, 1967. The two-tone blue interior scheme caught my eye, and I found myself staring at the set of doors directly across from me all the way to Times Square. To me, those car classes were BMT cars since that's where they were initially assigned.
To me, [R27s and R32s] were BMT cars since that's where they were initially assigned.
Agreed. And more specifically, Southern Division BMT cars.
Absolutely.
Paul: I remember that when the R-29's first arrived that they were called Redbirds and this nickname carried over to the mainline R-33 and R-36s. The Flushing cars were called Bluebirds to differentiate them from the mainline cars. They also were sometimes refered to as the World's Fair car though the only cars officially designated so were the World's Fair (1938)-Steinways on the 3 Avenue El. I have also heard the name used to describe the Q's when they were rebuilt for the 1938 World's Fair and sported the Blue and Orange paint scheme.(Remember 1622 ABC).
The Bluebirds were kept blue however because the TA installed a car washer in the Corona Yard which they acquired second hand from the Bergen Street Trackless Trolley Depot. Mainline cars were not washed at this time and were intermixed with the older R-types painted maroon and olive green. Only during the early days of the 1964 Fair was it possible to see clean Redbirds when they ran on the Flushing Line before enough Bluebirds were on hand.
We always took pride in refering to cars by there R-numbers, R-17, R-33 and we even differentiated between the various R-1/9 type. It was a very serious faux pas for a young railfans to refer to an R-1 as an R-1/9 in those days. If we had to differentiate between the mainline cars and the Flushing cars we would say R-33 and R-33 World's Fair, or R-36 and R-36 World's Fair.
The oldest official document that I have refering to the cars nicknames is the pre-Chrystie St 1967 subway map which refers to both Bluebirds and Brightliners. I know that the R-38's were refered to as Silverliners but I don't recall where that name came from.
The Redbird/Bluebird distinctions were forgotten under a ton of grafitti, MTA Silver and Blue and sanitation white paint schemes.
The first rebuilt and repainted train of R-33WF and R-36WF entered service on the Flushing Line on May 7,1984. The new paint scheme was described as "Fox Red" and David Gunn referred to the cars as "Silver Foxes. Neither name lasted very long and all of a sudden it seemed that we remembered the Redbird name which has remained until the present.
For the record the first rebuilt Redbird train had cars 9356-7,9587-6,9570-1,9477-6,9333,9412-3(W).
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I guess I didn't pay enough attention to the TA's equipment names. I don't recall the R38/Silverliner thing at all--and as to Mr. Gunn's "silver foxes," we all (Brooklynites anyway) know that the Silver Fox was The Duke!
But you bring up an interesting point with the "refrigerator white"--I assume you mean the famous White Train that we all thought was the TA's most quixotic venture ever--but they pulled it through!
Paul: I didn't know that about Duke Snider but them I'm from The Bronx. I think that the Duke played for the Yankees for a year or two but I may be wrong.
Talk about being politically correct in those days. You couldn't be a Dodger fan growing up in The Bronx or a Yankee fan growing up in Brooklyn if you wanted to live to see your tenth birthday.
Yes I hated that white and black paint scheme which is still used on the garbage trucks. All it does is show up the dirt.
Red also seems to be something of a heritage color on the IRT. I believ the the Gibbs Hi-VMs and Composite were painted either in a red or burnt orange paint scheme in the early days.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I don't think that Duke Snider ever spent any time with the Yankees.
I think he did have a year with the Mets, and then with the Giants.
You are right, Karl, According to Baseball-Reference.com The Duke played for Brooklyn 1947-1957, moved with The Bums to LA, 1958-1962, with the Met's second year 1963, and finished iwth the Jints in 1964.
Someone who wasn't around back then could not possibly appreciate how the Dodgers' leaving cut the heart out of Brooklynites. Though he's famously a Yankees fan, I've wondered whether that memory hasn't influenced Giuliani's desire not to lose the Yankees.
We say it, and people from other areas seem to agree with us, but non-Brooklynites really have no idea what a tragedy the Dodgers leaving was to the average resident of Brooklyn in those days. I may have only lived in Brooklyn for my first 21 years, but I worshipped the Brooklyn Dodgers during that time.
Karl:Although I'm a Yankee fans I always said tha a little bit of Brooklyn died when the Dodgers left town. Even after 50 years you guys can still name all the players.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
They COULD have waited until a couple of years after the Giants left; I don't think revenues were or would be that much greater in LA. Or was it that they thought they needed a new park. They deserted some of the most loyal fans in baseball. This is from a kid who lived in Yankee country when they left.
I guess I can't argue with the fact that Ebbets Field was too small. I haven't followed rhe politics of it too much but it's been said that O'Malley would have been happy as a clam with a sradium at Flatbush and Atlantic but that Moses blocked it and that cast the die for the L.A. move, or at least that it killed the last chance for the Dodgers to stay in Brooklyn.
IMO, the Dodgers' move was a seminal change for both baseball and Btooklyn.
For baseball, it wasn't the first time that a well-liked team had moved--for example, the Boston Braves to Milwaukee in 1953, but once the Dodgers went to L.A. and the Giants to S.F. it seemed to "tip" the trend from teams being somehow connected to their home towns instead of a bunch of hired hands playing with your cities' name on their uniforms.
For Brooklyn, it killed Brooklyn's existence as a City. No one from Brooklyn I knew ever said or thought of themselves as being "from" New York. This wasn't a snooty or local pride thing. It was just where you were from.
Nowadays, I don't think it's quite the same, Brooklyn patriots like BMTman and Pig notwithstanding.
Very well said Paul; indeedup till that time Brooklyn was still its own city. I guess even if I don't follow sports I like the Cubs because of Wrigley Field; Ebbets field was likewise a treasure. BTW for rail's sake I was riding the 1300 BU's [on the platforms of course] on Myrtle Ave. the day the Dodgers won the World Series....it was like no scenes of joy I've ever seen since.Great, even for a Bronx kid at the time. Regards from another old timer of the rails, Ed Davis, Sr.
Denver went bananas when the Broncos won the Super Bowl for the first time. I never heard so many car horns honking in my life.
Speaking of bananas, ESPN Classic will be airing Game 5 of the 1969 World Series next Monday at 9 PM EDT. You can bet I'll be taping it. I can still remember Curt Gowdy proclaiming "And the Mets are the World Champions!" as Cleon Jones caught Davey Johnson's game-ending fly ball.
Hi Ed. Good to see you again.
I guess The Bums finally winning a Series is one of those things where you remember exactly where you were. Our TV was on the fritz (again--it happened a lot in those days). We all rushed over to a neighbor's to see the end of the game. We were on top of the world! Then just two years later...:(
Duke was a sentimental favorite when the Mets acquired him in a straight cash deal. Oddly enough, he didn't get to wear his familiar number 4 until Charley Neal was traded to Cincinnati. Neal wouldn't give up his number!
After one season, Duke didn't like the prospect of another dismal season in last place and asked to be traded. The Mets sold him to the Giants on Opening Day in 1964. Talk about ironies. Duke knew he wouldn't be able to wear number 4 because the Giants had already retired it in honor of Mel Ott, and wound up wearing number 28.
AFAIK Duke is one of a handful of The Boys of Summer who are still alive. Joe Black died just recently.
Yes, I believe The Duke is still around. He would be 76 or so now. Last I heard he was happily farming avocados in the land of the Endless Summer.
Sadly, I recall an interview some years in which Duke said that he wasn't that big on baseball or on Brooklyn either--it was just a job. No Willie Mays he.
As an adult I can appreciate his point of view, but The Kid in me hates it! I mean, we even named our dog after him, for Chrissakes! (Duke Matus, 1950-1965).
But of course, all pre-R32 stock (except for the one R11 consist) were painted steel. And everything in either division from the R10 on, especially beginning with the R16, was pretty similar to anything we now call a "redbird" in every way except paint job.
:-) Andrew
West End Man: It was nice to meet you on the Redbird fantrip.
The term Redbirds was first applied to the R-29's. As befits a class act they arrived in style by barge and were given a welcoming salute
by FDNY fireboats on March 28,1962.They actually made they first run with passengers on the #7 line on April 30,1962. They then returned to the mainline IRT and began service on the #1 Broadway Local.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
larry thanks for the info keep in touch nice to meet you to
Hi guys. I distinctly recall the IRT equipment of the 1960's on the Bronx While Plaines Road lines as being exclusively grey (steel?) When were the Redbirds first assigned to these lines?
Once all the R142s/R142As arrive, will certain cars be permanently assigned to a line? If so, will the cars assigned to Lexington Avenue finally have the red digital bulkhead sign replaced with green? I know people should pay attention to the #, but with the 2 and the 5 sharing the same track in certain areas, I think color coding makes sense. -Nick
I don't know, the "L" on the R-143's was red, too...probably not.
I don't think the color really matters much, back in the early 80's when a lot of cars had the old 1967-68 colors people didn't notice...I mean, the pink AA never confused me as to which line it was, or the black J, or the yellow 6...
For that matter, one could argue that the A and the C and the E should all have different colors, since they share the same track in certain areas...then, what about the colorblind people?
The letter or number markings should suffice for color blind people. RTD adopted both letters AND colors for Denver's light rail system specifically for that purpose. Our lines are referred to as the C and D lines instead of the Orange and Green lines respectively, although either would be correct.
It's interesting to drive down Santa Fe Drive during peak hours nowadays. There is a steady parade of n/b trains all along the Southwest Corridor. I'll have to go for a ride just to see how many more new cars have been delivered. A month ago, there were three.
"I don't know, the "L" on the R-143's was red, too...probably not."
I don't think you can get the color gray in a digital form, and the L runs by itself (there is no express route). -Nick
But still, what about the A,C, and E??
All the same color.
Plus, it's the LETTER, not the color, which defines the line.
I don't think you can get the color gray in a digital form
Yes, you can. Look: GRAY.
Don't tell me your computer monitor is not digital! :-)
Interesting, Pig. I wonder how well that would look on the bulkhead; would people see it against a black background? -Nick
I was driving through Bismarck, and new section has LEDs in the traffic lights (for the red and green aspects, they yellow still uses a bulb) They are very bright and can be seen clearly. I'll bet all new signals will be LEDs soon.
In the photo store there were some bright LED flashlights for sale at about 8$ each. They came in Red, Gree, Blue, and White, but no yellow or orange. So.... I guess those are the colurs you are limited to. A display must use one or the other, for mising them would space them too far out to be nicely readable. Leastwise that is what I think.
Elias
Nobody said anything about the R-46 rebuilds with the green digital letters....
What does it matter what color the letter is?
"Nobody said anything about the R-46 rebuilds with the green digital letters...."
That's because there aren't any. There WERE some R-44s that got flip-dot signs in the mid-1980s (including the front signs), but those signs are long gone. I found them easier to read than the LCDs, but they really weren't around long enough to fade appreciably like the small end signs on the R-32s and R-38s.
David
>>There WERE some R-44s that got flip-dot signs in the mid-1980s (including the front signs), but those signs are long gone.<<
You must mean polka dots !! The dots weren't small like on bus signs, but did look rather goofy. I'm glad that idea tanked.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anybody have pictures?
really ? Some R44s got flipdot signs back in the 80s that must of looked very strange . Well the hell did they put it where the front roll sign is now? I think it wouldve looked very stupid and goofy if you asked me i'm glad they shelved the idea.
It (the front flip-dot sign) was indeed where the roll sign is.
David
ahhh that must of looked hideous as all hell. Anyone have pictures of that i would really like to seem them. Thank god they put the roll signs back. Imagine if they wouldve kept it and extended it to the R46s too... o god that wouldve been bad.
Well, the point of the 1967 "spaghetti map" colors was to distinguish different routes operating on the same lines. The thing is, the NYC subway is just too big for such a system, and the result was an impossibly cluttered, unreadable map. The current color-coding just makes more sense. It is true that there are drawbacks, but overall it works very well. Personally, I think it sucks that newer route signs have all-but abandonned the colors. On Queens Blvd, it means the world to be able to distinguish one train from another in a split second. But the post-GOH R46 LCD's (say that five times fast) render the route identification system useless right when we need it the most.
:-( Andrew
The answer seems to be no.
Either read the sign, listen for the announcement (if they don't cut it off by closing the doors), or just get on the train and see where it takes you. All three choices work!
LOL!! :-) Unfortunately, I know there are some people in this city who don't pay attention and will end up on the wrong train. -Nick
Ideally there should be a bulkhead sign that could do red, green and purple on the A-division, and blue, orange, light green, brown, yellow, and gray (well, maybe white) for the B-division. But no they won't be doing anything like that.
:-) Andrew
Why not make an LCD screen up top and project a GIF image onto it via a fiber optic cable from a small onboard computer?
wayne
Hopefully by the time the R-160's are ordered, the price of full color LED's will drop, and the colors will be as bright as the red now used.
No changes can be expected in the Bombardier R142s except updates and improvements (read into that.) CI Peter
It keeps getting mentioned here that the R-16's spent their last days on the M....
How long were they there approximately? I never saw them there, and rode the J and M almost every day in the 80's.
They were there when I was in high school, because I rode them quite often around my sophmore year and there were quite a few there then. That was around 1985-1986.
I think they were just used as rush hour extras to Bay Parkway (if they made it there) when the M was moved off the Brighton to the West End.
Someone posted way back that there was a pull-apart in the Montague Street tunnel - they were in such bad shape.
Hey, at the Model Train & Transit Show in Kendall Park, alot of people said that the R16's, when new, was the best equipment on the Eastern Division.
I think they were just used as rush hour extras to Bay Parkway (if they made it there) when the M was moved off the Brighton to the West End.
They were on the M during the day also (I had them after school sometimes around 2:00, so they ran more than just rush hour). They ran before the West End switch in 1987 also I think, because I rode them in 1986 there, and into 1987. But you are right, they were probably more prevelent after the Brighton-West End switch.
I'm willing to bet that the R-16s would have held up better over the course of their careers had they been properly maintained. Granted deferred maintenance took its toll on the entire fleet, but the R-16s seemed to suffer more from it than most other car classes.
I think that because it was a minority 200 car fleet, which is small, and the TA had alot of bigger problems than maintaining a relatively small fleet. They had to figure a way to keep the R44's and R46's running, which were plagued with problems in their early days.
I was reading my ERA bulletins from the mid-seventies, and these cars were basically being put out to pasture then with the arrival of the R46's.
If they simply put them on the mostly underground and isolated Canarsie Line post-Chrystie, they would have continued their careers quite well thru the 1980's. I rode them all the time until November 1967, and never experienced a problem unless there was a lot of snow. ENY seemed to know how to maintain them. I don't know how often they cycled to CI for heavy maintenance during the pre-Chrystie era.
Simple. Broadway-Brooklyn over the Willy B., through the Nassau Loop to the Montague St. tunnel, then down 4th Ave. to the West End or Sea Beach to Coney Island.
The R-16s were fine through the 60s. Once they were shifted from yard to yard without being regularly inspected, problems set in. Gene Sansone speaks of the 6400s as the "million dollar cars" due to all the effort expended to keep them running.
Does any one remember the farewell to the R-17s trip? back in 1988? I just want to know the following, Does any one have the consist for the farewell trip? Also does any one have any photos of the R-17s on the # 7 line? Much appriciated. "R-17 6620"
Well, 6688 was the lead motor. There are a couple of photos of that fantrip in New York City Subway Cars, including a stop at City Hall Loop.
Dave also has a shot of 6688 in white on the Shuttle.
It's funny, but the last three times I loaded the nycsubway.org home page I got the exact same banner image! (In case you're interested, it's the one with the R33 train with car 8816 at 239th Street Yard.) Are you sure the banner image is random? (:-)
Just thought I'd share that with you.
- Lyle Goldman
So what?
Your browser caches the home page, therefore it does not bother to download a new one each time.
This has been the way things are since the rotating banner image on the home page began.
That's not it. I always empty my cache every night when I am finished with the Internet, and it always used to be different every day. I meant to say that in my original message, but I forgot.
- Lyle Goldman
Try sitting there and clicking shift-reload a bunch of times. Trust me, it's still random.
Just got =bmt=stillwell=stillwell-d-01-.jpg
shift-reload
Just got =slides=r142=r142a-7211e.jpg
shift-reload
Just got =slides=r142=r142-6616.jpg
etc.
P.S. if you just want to see all the banners, please don't hammer the server, there is an easier way:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/banner4/
WoW, Thats a lot of relly nice photos!
Elias
Cool photos!
Just out of curiousity, where was slides=r62=r62-2325.jpg taken? I notice it's a train of R62's signed for (1) service, so I assume it's way uptown somewhere. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with that area to recognize the bridge or viaduct the train is on. I love all that steelwork, though!
I also like the shot with Coney Island in the background... Sure makes me anxious to get back to New York soon. The past two nights in a row I've had dreams that I was in NYC... Weird.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The R62 picture you asked about is the Broadway bridge as viewed from the Metro North station.
You're right. I guess it was a coincidence.
- Lyle Goldman
wow !! well i will say how glad i am that this site is on da' web!!
THANK YOU DAVID PIRMANN !!!!!!!!
now here is a nice X rated site ( mine ) 4 "U" ..."2"....all see !!
post this into your url first ...
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
***************************************************
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
*************
enjoy no pinching the laides with out a advance payment !!!
>>>>>>>>>lol !!!
What does that have to do with what I said in the message to which you replied?
- Lyle Goldman
I keep getting R142A 7375. It has been like that for a week now.
#7375 6 Pelham Local
i have my browser set to get the latest page every visit, but the banner thing doesnt change unless i hit ctrl+refresh.
I found this site on the LIRR forum:http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/lirr/lirr.htm Over 150 pics, only thing is its almost all MU's, no diesels. There's even a pic of the MP41's. Also a pic of MP54's junked in the same train junkyard as BMT Standards.
daves electric railroads site is a bomb anyway !!
the photos of the old pacific electric is my favorite !!
here is my site ..........oh well ......!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
lol !!!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
Those all look like the LIRR photos that were posted in Usenet last year by Joe Testagrose.
They may be, as Joe is a big contributor to Capt. Dave's great site.
Can anybody explain to me what the deal is with this one? Thanks.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It had brain surgery!
That's one of the virtually unknown gas turbine MUs that the LIRR ran for a while in the 70's. They were prototypes for an eventual fleet of them.
The experimental Garrett turbines. An experiment for non-electrified territory.
--Mark
Yes they are nice pictures, but they take too long to load, *and* I have a fast DSL line too!
Break it up and make more pages, or else just describe the photo and let people click on the text.
These free websites limit your bandwidth, and you will quickly exceed it. Rework the thumbnails so that they are no more than about 32 KB.
Elias
I'm still trying to figure out a good way to get to the Mall at Short Hills, as I have scrapped the 70 bus plan from Newark due to the super long ride through some not so pleasant areas (Newark, Irvington). I've always been curious to see how NJT's commuter trains are like. The NJT Summit station connects to the #70 bus, for a short ride to the mall.
The train is a few bucks more than the PATH/70 combo, but if it's less agrivation it's worth it.
However I notice service to Summit in the off peak direction is pretty poor, especially in the afternoon. The only train to NYC is the 2-6pm period is the 2:34pm train.
From Sea Cliff to NYC in that same period are 3 different trains. Maybe I shouldn't complain about the Oyster Bay branch so much. :-0
Dont know where you got the schedule from but according to the NJT web site trains run to NY from Summit every 30 minutes or so offpeak.
http://atisweb.njtransit.com/cgi-bin/railtt.pl
That link didn't work for me, but this one shows two trains per hour mid day from Summit, one to Hoboken and one to NYP, five minutes apart, so there's essentially one train per hour.
NJT timetables: click on "Morris and Essex Lines".
The web site must have been wrong then, I must have made a mistake or something. I am sorry.
According to what the web site said, I selected Summit on the M&E and NY Penn and between 2 and 6pm and that's what it said.
I knew something seemed fishy since Summit is on a major NJT line.
IMO, you should also apologize for dissing neighborhoods in NJ that you know nothing about.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have scrapped the 70 bus plan from Newark due to the super long ride through some not so pleasant areas (Newark, Irvington).
Good idea! You can never be too careful when it comes to armed robbers on horseback who come in to rob the bus.
I'm not sure why you're concerned, but from everything I've experienced, the cities of Newark and Irvington are no less pleasant than many of the neighborhoods that I'm sure you take LI Bus through on a regular basis. Especially from inside a bus.
Also, from what I saw on the schedules, there are plenty of trains to and from Summit all day long. During the time period your talking about, there's a 2:34, 3:34, 4:07, 4:37 and 5:34. There's also 2 additional trains each hour to Hoboken. Live dangerously. Take a train to Hoboken and catch a ferry to downtown.
CG
Someone suggested those were really bad neighborhoods.
I will still opt for the train, since I have never rode an NJT train before and am curious. As much as I like buses, I do like trains much better since they are faster and don't have to contend with traffic (and I hate traffic!).
The schedule I got from the NJT website must have been wrong or I made a mistake. I used the point to point scheduler, but have now downloaded the PDF and am able to understand it better.
As much as I like buses, I do like trains much better since they are faster and don't have to contend with traffic (and I hate traffic!).
You should stop hating everything. As a great sage once said a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away: "Hate leads to suffering."
So does anybody like traffic?? Perhaps NIMBYs. :-0
Well, on local streets shopowners love traffic.... while waiting for things to start moving people tend to stare at your billboards and ads!
While everybody hates traffic, you hate everything. If you don't hate something, you find fault in it in order to hate it.
NIMBYs often hate traffic, they just don't want their lives affected so that it can be relieved.
NIMBYs can hate traffic, they just don't want their lives affected so that it can be relieved.
Go to New Jersey Transit Schedules page for easy-to-read schedules.
(NOTE: This is a very helpful site not part of njtransit.com)
Monday Morning, I was riding a Queens-Bound "A" Express to Euclid Ave., and a unusual Bomb Like Sound occured between the Trucks and the Third Rail on a R-44, there were alot of sparks that lasted for atleast 5-7 seconds. I also noticed that a Manhattan-Bound "A" Express" going the other way was going pass at the same time of the Bomb Like Sound. Is this normal for Subways sometimes?
The same happened at Atlantic Ave at 6:40PM Thursday.
Atlantic Ave Q was a no clearance sign (metal) coming in contact with the thrid rail and the running rail at the same time...BOOM!
The sound you heard is normal. We call it "The Bomb-like Sound".
"Non-Life-Threatening Unscheduled Noise of Higher-Than-Normal Amplitude"
Add: "Of very short duration".
Well the train could have dropped a shoe.
As far as the "Bomb-like sound", what bulletin # is that? I missed it when I used the back of the bulletins on the board for printing paper at home. I saved 40 cents on paper costs you know.
Lemme see ... third chromium switch from the left, right above the left side enabler. :)
For those who were delayed on the Queens-bound A or C line yesterday,it was not due to 3rd rail problems. It was not due to mechanical failure. it was not due to signal trouble or switch trouble. It wasen't even a sick customer or a crew member needing to go to the bathroom. It was due to a Pit Bull on the tracks around Van Siclen Avenue. The 96 minute delay ended when the dog was tranquelized and removed - ALIVE Delay ended at 9:08 AM.....
Fortunately nobody got hurt. Those pit bull dogs have a reputation for hurting people.
I wonder how the pitbull was smart enought to not get hit by any trains, and not get electrified by the third rail.
The pitbull probably knew enough to flee any big thing that was coming at him. And probably knew enought to jump over the 3rd rail.
Would've been interesting if it tripped/slipped.
HOT DOGs - Get your HOT DOGS here!!
Hot Dog!
I think dogs are rather stupid when it comes to railroads.
When I was commuting on the LIRR there was never less than 30 dog carcases in various stages of decomposition on the tracks from about St. Albans to Jamaica Station.
When startled by a train they would run from it, but would not jump the running rails and thus escape to the side. Seems like they would panic and see the rails as an obsicle that they could not jump over.
Needless to say, they could not outrun the M1s on that line.
Elias
See: BBQ Pigeon anyone?
-- David
Chicago, IL
I just lost my appertite, thanks.
I'm going to the game tonight.
Will the D stop at Yankee Stadium, or do I have to change for the B at 145th?
There might be Uptown D trains running local from 145 to 167 streets just for arriving Yankee fans. Unless you hear announcments via PA or a conductor, wait at 145 St for the B. Consider the 4 train in case downtown you hear of any servive disruptions.
Just wondering, which one gets more ridership when there's a Yankee game?
The #4 without a doubt. I believe just because of its long lived fame. When you talk about the train to yankee staudium, its a given that u mean the 4, not the B or D.
Depends on the time. IF the D train that you are on comes in on the center track at 145th Street, change to the B. If it comes in against the wall stay on it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Any train on the wall track at 145th probably will stop at 161st. Any train on the middle track probably won't. Just use location (and announcements) as your cue. Ask the conductor if you're not sure.
I don't know where you're coming from, but if it's an A, just stay on it to 145th and go downstairs so you can catch whatever shows up against the wall. And if you're waiting for a D in midtown and a B shows up first, take it -- you'll probably beat the next D to the Bronx (the B only takes three minutes longer) and you know the B won't bypass your stop.
Those other guys who answered must not have Yankees season tickets. :)
Anyway, in my experience, on home game nights, the "D" is always local in the Bronx.
You guys know how to hurt a fella. My one seat ride to the yankees (sniff) gone for four years. My EXPRESS RIDE home on a Yankee Special (on a Concourse 68A), gone for four years.
Wahhhhhhh Wahhhahahah :-(
Boo-hoo-hoo.:-(
If it'll make you feel any better, I don't think they've run 7 expresses after Met games for years now.
Last time I was at shea on a Sunday, about 2 years ago, I caught an express that was waiting on the center platform. At Junction BLVD, as the train was leaving, and on the local track too, all the signals went dead as far as I could see, both directions. Both trains came to a halt with a woosh after moving a few feet out.
They didn't after the game I went to last year, which was a Sunday night (ended early Monday morning).
Im about 95% sure, but I believe during Yankee week night home games, the D is supposed to be local in the Bx. Im sure my B division counterparts can chime in here.............
I just got back from Minneapolis, and I was there two years too early. The Hiawatha Avenue light rail line isn't supposed to open until 2004, but I did get to see parts of it under construction. The bus system that is in place seems to be a good one, with lots of routes, frequent service, and incredibly friendly drivers (I have to say nearly everyone in the Twin Cities was very friendly). One saw my SEPTA shirt and told me he'd lived in Philadelphia for a few years. Another saw my CTA shirt and only charged me off-peak fare even though it was morning rush hour.
But I did manage to find some rails to ride. There is a historic trolley line run by the Minnesota Transportation Museum. The Como-Harriet streetcar once ran from south Minneapolis northward to the University of Minnesota, then turned east to end up in St. Paul.
Some of it was on private right-of-way, and a mile of it has been preserved and is run on weekends. The staff were very friendly, and were happy to talk. The supervisor is in fact an engineer on the Hiawatha light rail project, and told me all kinds of neat things about it, too. He told me there's even talk of a second line someday which would serve U of M and St. Paul...the Hiawatha line serving the Mall of America, the airport and downtown Minneapolis.
Now I just need some excuse to go to the Twin Cities in 2004...
Mark
Just wanted to know is how many R62A car sets are now on the #7 line & when will more car sets be arriving on the #7 line.
1676-1705 (Unitized) and 2111-2155 (singles) are on the 7 line now.
This equals to 6 train sets. There are more cars that are supposed to be on the way but what cars they will be is unknown at this time.
Hope this helps you out.
#2150 7 Flushing Local
On my way home at about 2:30am this past Tuesday morning (which at the time was still Monday night for me), while riding in the lead car of a Chambers-bound 8th Avenue local R-32 E train, I saw a strange consist heading downtown on the express track. While in the tunnel between 50th and 42nd streets, I caught sight of what was clearly a redbird, judging by the interior decor, running in tandem with us on the express track. What were redbirds doing in IND territory? Was there a late-night redbird fantrip nobody told me about? Turns out it was an OOS 6 or 8 car train. The first 2 cars were R-42's led by car # 4659. The 3rd and 4th cars were R-26 redbirds led by car # 7771. The rest of the train was made up of R-42's, the last of which was signed-up for L service. Lost sight of them by the time we reached W4 St. For a second, I felt like I was in the sequel to Jacob's Ladder, or at least a Twilight Zone where redbirds roam free on the B division!
Or just a 2002 NYC subway where they're in the process of scrapping them. I'd say they came from the (7), but I don't think any R26s ran there.
:-) Andrew
Do scrap-ready cars sit on death row in Coney Island? I figured if they were headed for redbird reefs, the train would have been going uptown. Isn't all the pre-reef stripping done in the Bronx somewhere?
Those were the R-26s en route to Canarsie Yard. That train must have taken the long, long way to get there if it was on the express track.
Sheesh! Just saw the post about the "Saved" R-26's destined for BMT school-car service, which these obviously were. If they were heading to Canarsie, that is a long route!
If that train were on the local track, it could have switched over to Houston St. south of W. 4th, then to Delancey via the unused Chrystie St. connector, over the Willy B and via Broadway out to Broadway Junction, then via the unused connector to Atlantic Ave. and on to Canarsie Yard. Voila!
But, of course, it was on the express track, so it couldn't do that.
This leads to the obvious question:
Did anyone spot a train of R-26's riding up the escalator at Broadway-ENY?
LOL
It is possible to uses switches before and after W4 to go from the 8th Avenue Express to the Houston Street line.
Are the 2 R16's still in Canarsie ?
No it isn't. The only switches are between the local tracks of the two lines. And the last switch from the 8th Avenue express to the 8th Avenue local is just north of 59th. Just south of 59th is a second chance, the turnoff to 6th Avenue, but that's it.
If there's one thing the IND skimped on, it was scissor switches. Or crossover switches of any kind aling 8th Ave. Go figure.
After 59th St., the next chance to switch from express to local is at Canal St.
What you saw was obviously a transfer with A Division equipment moving through B Division trackage.
While I don't know where the train was going, I can tell you that redbirds and R62/62A have trip cocks on the right side of the train because all signals in the A Division have signals with stop arms on the right side of the tracks.
Equipment in the B Division (R32 thru R143) have trains with trip cocks on the left side of the train because signals in that division have stop arms on the left side of the tracks.
In order for A Division trains to run on tracks in the B Division, they must be "sandwiched" between B Division cars otherwise those trains would not be able to be tripped by red signals, automatic or home ball, creating a potentially dangerous situation.
In order for A Division trains to run on tracks in the B Division, they must be "sandwiched" between B Division cars otherwise those trains would not be able to be tripped by red signals, automatic or home ball, creating a potentially dangerous situation.
I was on one of the "farewell to the redbirds" fantrips in August, 2000, where we had all redbirds on the B division. I know the Observation car was on one end, but I can't remember what was on the opposite end. I think it was an R-33 redbird. How come we didn't trip a signal on that trip (actually, I think we did on one or 2 occasions)?
Here's a photo I took at QBP at the end of the day when we crossed from the B division to the A division, and a much better photo by our webmaster taken earlier the same day at Stillwell.
The R-33WF singles (not to be confused with the mainline R-33's) have tripcocks on both sides.
And the issue isn't that you would trip a signal. It's that if you did pass a red signal, your train's emergency brakes wouldn't have been activated until the back end of the first car passed the stop arm.
You should have seen...maybe you did...the smorgasbords of trains on all IRT lines but the 6 and 7 when I worked there in the early 70's. In any train you could have a mix of aything from R12 thru 33. Sure made for lousy braking with 3 different types of dynamic-fade out in a train.On the 7 were oly the World's Fair R36 and single R33's. Pelham had married pairs with some R17's mixed in. You think that transfer you saw was amix! The smorgasbords I call them were in passenger service.
The IRT was notorious for smorgasbord trains throughout the 60s and 70s. As I've said before, I never saw a solid train of anything on th mainlines until after the GOH program, and then once I saw a train with TEN CONSECUTIVELY NUMBERED REDBIRDS! It doesn't get ant better than that, folks.
Tired of getting home from work and watching reruns??
Well here is the return of the SubTalk Field Trip.
The recent posting about redbirds on the BMT has got me thinking in doing at "R143 to the RedBirds" field trip.
How does July 25th (a day of PC Expo and SubFanning) sound?
We'll meet at 8th Ave and 14th at around 5:30pm and take the first R143 (L running at 4-6 minute headway then) to Carnarsie. We can see how the R143 and our T/O handles the famous timers. Ride straight to Rockaway Pkwy for some pictures of R26 7770-7771 on BMT property. We'll dine at the nearby McDonalds or Pizza or Diner and hop back on to Broadway Junction and see how the El "De"Construction is coming along.
Should have plenty of light and a nice simple Field Trip to start off once more (before I do the Staten Island one, later in the summer).
Any ideas or comments feel free to email me or post.
Thanks for listening.
Lou, we might even get a hotshot 'Transit Professional' as the C/R on our R143, if we're lucky...;-D
BMT Man,
Is the "Transit Professional" back on the "L"?
:-) Sparky
He goes where he is needed :-)
-Mark
Whom might you be talking about???????
-Mark
Oh some guy who collects fare boxes I guess....LOL!
BMT Man,
Yeah, that's the guy. Heard on the grapevine he wants gate cars
returned to the Dyre Ave Shuttle, so he can play with the farebox,
while being paid as a c/r. >G<
:-) Sparky
You guys are terrrrrrible.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually we're WORSE! ;-D
ANDEE,
We is BBBBAAAAAADDDDDDDDD. Put us all together and look upward. I'm 6'3" and I'm the small guy. >GAWD<
;-) Sparky
Yea, I know, Unfortunately I've met all these clowns.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yea and most of them were sitting at the same table in Long Beach.
A night to remember ... walking on the Board Walk with war ships in the distance while holding candles. I finaly got the wax off my pants.
Mr rt__:^)
Thank God for that.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yea...We get paid extra for fare collection. The hobby is good but the pay is better! :-)
-Mark
Mark,
You never had it so gooood. Not only do they pay ya, but they cloth
ya also. >GOLLY<
:-) Sparky
Lou,
I would love to join you for the fieldtrip...but is there any way we can do it a week earlier? I'll be away 7/22-8/4 :-( -Nick
Nick, We had you on our list of interested folks. If we can't work it out so you can join this one we have two more coming:
- SIRT .... in day light
- Beaches of Rock & Long ... when the sand & water warms a little more.
Also look for:
- Pilly ... all the colors, well most of them anyhow.
- Seashore trolley museum, maybe Boston too.
Thanks, Thurston! I'm back in CT now, so maybe I'll do "Beaches of Rock and Long" (or maybe I can get up to Boston..we shall see). :-)
-Nick
You're a month late. PC Expo is June 25-27.
If you meant June 25, I'll be there if my arms aren't too bogged down. They tend to get quite full at PC Expo.
I'll be there the 26th. It's a full day (25th starts late, 27th end early).
I have a draw full of t-shirts form past events, how about you ?
They're practically all I wear. Unfortunately, last year I didn't get a single t-shirt. My wardrobe needs expansion.
One year (1995?) I won a baby redwood sequoia. You should have seen the stares I got holding it over my head on a rush hour 2 train.
In years past some of the stuff was realy great. Now it's less interesting & less valuable.
I for one won't fight for a t-shirt or stand in line for an hour for an umbrella. Most of the sit down situations include a lot of give aways ... better cram for the test, because if you don't know the technology or something about the product line you'll walk away empty handed.
Mr mis__:^)
Sounds good to me. Are there enough R143s on the L to ensure we would get one without having to wait for hours? Two weeks ago I lucked into one and only saw one go the other way while riding the whole line inbound.
Well hopefully by the suggested date, enough R143 sets are operational.
And to clarify, it is July 25, someone inserted June 25 in a reply?
:-) Sparky
With the running times on the L, you shouldn wait no more than a hour before a R143 shows up, just stand at one of the island platforms and wait. Personally, I wait at Myrtle.
Mike, that's only true if Mark isn't horsing around with the electronic controls...holding up the Conga Line...LOL! ;-D
Reminder:
Our planned "R143 to the RedBirds Field Trip" on the L is scheduled for NEXT TUESDAY, that's J-U-N-E 25th.
The plan is to meet up at 8th Ave and 14th at around 5:30pm and take the "L" from there.
For those that can make it earlier I'll be happy to do a walk thru of the Flushing line from Main Street to Times Square. I'll be taking the first Red Bird out of Main Street after 4 PM. If we get one right away there should be time for a quick snack near 8th & 14th.
Bring your FUN PASS or be square.
Mr rt__:^)
Where exactly at 8th and 14th? Front (east/south) end of the L platform?
Why at the head end of the L station of course.
Seriously, there is plunty of room there for us to gather.
Mr rt__:^)
You need to ask a subway buff which end of the platform to stand at??
Back to school for you, class "Foamer 101" for you sir!!
Next Tuesday is June 18.
Hay if Lou can do it so can I ... sorry about that ;-)
Mr rt
Hey, Mr. T lay off the wacky weed, will ya?!
;-D
And this from the "King of misconceptions". And I was accused of
eating funny mushrooms, because the Mrs. & I saw a boat on Newtown
Creek Sunday Noon with a deck full of passengers.
I'm going to have to stop breaking bread with these guys, it maybe
catching!!!
Earth to Thurston, do land at the outbound end of the Eight Avenue
"LL" platform in 14 days on the 25th. My last ride on that line was
MLK day, after leaving the "2" & Big Lou & BMT Man and my set from
6th to Lorimer was a slant. >G<
:-) Sparky
Hay if Lou can do it so can I ... sorry about that ;-)
The date is in fact June 25th, the first day of PC Expo.
Mr rt
Two weeks from today 6/25/02 Tuesday, (as the cops say) "L Plat". If you can't figure out which end, its the one that doesn't end at a wall.
5:30pm rain or shine
Just a little correction to the topic of this post. It's 6/25 not 6/35 LOL
Just a little correction to the topic of this post. It's 6/25 not 6/35 LOL
Darn!! There's nothing on my calendar on 6/35!!!
This whole trip is jinxed.
Within six months, riders on the MBTA's Red Line could see animated advertising as their subways rumble through the tunnels of Boston. Between South Station and the Broadway stop in South Boston, tunnel walls might display what appear to be brief silent movies touting bottled water or running shoes.
The full story from the Boston Globe.
It sounds like that art display near DeKalb Avenue.
They already have one on PATCO on the eastbound platform of the abandonned Fraklin Square station. It is an ad for that bottled water that coke makes.
MARTA also has the same ad since last September. I'll try to get a video of it when I take your in-between shots you want.
Denasi is the water.
Son of Burma Shave.
Could be used to pay for SAS!
Really, 1 billion over 6 years is alot
From todays Daily News:
"In its dirty war against pigeons, the Transit Authority will be putting its top-flight weapon in more stations.
As droppings continue to create unsightly conditions at elevated subway stations, the TA will add more equipment to shoo — actually, jolt — the omnipresent birds from their perches and nesting spots."
For the rest of the article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-06-05/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-153214.asp
I hope that the TA has E. Tremont Av. on the list for this new system. I hate having to step in/on poop whenever I leave the station.
I don't know, but I know Bay 50th Street on the W line in Brooklyn is on the list for the new system.
I see bird crap on the subway platforms every day? Is it really that hard for maintenance workers to clean it off the damn platforms, for Heaven's sake?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>...bird crap . . . damn platforms...<<
tsk, tsk...such lanquage, you should practice what you preach. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Could be worse! (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
Station cleaners are probably at a station for only 2 hours a day. And while they are there, they have to do other things while they're there. Pigeons are there 24/7.
Paraphrasing a NYC radio station:
"All Poop, All The Time"
One of them basic dichotomies of urban life. We protest for the rights of salmon in the northwest or whales in the ocean, but we try to figure our ways to fry our nearby feathered friends.
They'll be baaaaaacccck. The wars been going on as long as there were pigeons and roosting opportunities. Is this really worth $50,000 of our money a pop? You can buy an awful lot of Kentucky Colonel for that. :)
Bad news, guys ... a NUMBER of public buildings have "bird jolters" on their parapets ... doesn't really help much. A little, but not a whole lot. The birds eventually figure out how to avoid completing the circuit. The NYS Court of Appeals building in Smallbany had such a system as did a few others and there were still streaks of sheet. And you could hear the Bzzzzzp! Bzzzzzp! on the PA system in the building every time it energized.
Bzzzzzp! Bzzzzzp!
Good thing they don't have that system at Sing Sing...
It must be nerve-wracking enough there as it is.
Heh. Court of Appeals has had a recurring problem with pigeons - they call the thing a "bird shocker" and they've been through a number of them over the years with the same results - the pigeons snicker at one another and then dive bomb the wires. Eventually they get coated with ... ummm ... "insulation" ... yeah, that's the ticket. :)
I wish the TA luck ... if it works, MANY building maintenance people will be quite interested in a successful result. If there is one.
The high school I went to was laid out as a square with an open centre (due to the fourth side at the back being added in a late 1960s renovation which was what closed off the inside). Pigeons became a big problem for all the obvious reasons and because it was discovered that the accumulated pigeon poop was causing people's allergies and asthma to act up severely in the classrooms facing inside the square, especially for the teachers who had to spend the entire day instead of one or two classes in those rooms.
Bird blasting wire was strung up along all the window sills and other edges where they could sit and do their business. The only thing the whole arrangement was effective at was shocking people who'd open up the windows and touch the wires to see if they were live (a certain art teacher comes to mind here). I think it was during my last year there that they strung a huge net from the edges of the roofs to close off the square from above to keep the birds out. It worked well enough but it left the problem of pigeons perching on the roof edges and the sills on the outside walls of the building, particularly with the older section that was gothic style, full of ideal perching places. You can see a corner of Northern peeking out from behind the church in this picture:
The caption is mislabeled Queen & McCaul. Historical information on the picture - that's the Eglinton loop located on the northeast corner of Mt. Pleasant Rd. and Eglinton Ave. The Mt. Pleasant streetcar is long gone, an old folks home perches over the loop and the trolley busy that replaced it was abandoned about ten years ago and now it's a diesel route that's seen heavy cutbacks in recent years.
Has the TA considered using balloons?
I'm not kidding. A few years ago, I was a member of an organization that had a major bird problem in one of the trees in its parking lot. (It quickly got to the point that the organization had to pay for a car wash each day for each car that had a rented parking space in the vicinity of the tree.) Someone suggested filling balloons and hanging them in the tree. It sounded crazy, but it was a lot cheaper than any of the other alternatives, so it was tried -- and it worked instantly!
Nice shot ... but as for the pigeons, like I said, I've seen that stuff used and it does help a LITTLE ... but not a lot. Maybe we've got "new technology" here. :)
SHOCKING !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Just happen in subway station, there are angry pedestrians get dropping when they stand below the traffic holders.
Its not Just happen in subway station, there are angry pedestrians get dropping when they stand below the traffic holders.
If anyone has listened to Tom Lerher's song "Posioning Pigeons In The Park", there is a line in the ditty that says "It's not against any religion, to want to dispose of a pigeon."
#3 West End Jeff
In Syracuse, CENTRO uses ultrasonic BIRD-X units to scare pigeons away from downtown bus shelters. They seem to be effective.
Here I get myself in trouble again: the pigeons fly right into to 239th Car Barn and settle inside the R142s. So at noon sups get the delivery...'Chinese Chicken for Lunch.' That's the poop from the #2 line. CI Peter
Wouldn't it be better just to hire hunters and shoot them down to control the population? Hunters already do this to control game population like deer and vension.
I can almost imagine the cops running everytime someone calls about a man with a gun.
Nah, in the past year "man with powdered donuts" would have REALLY done the trick. Many a station has been closed for possession of confectioner's sugar with intent to sell ... what a strange world. As one who grew up with "duck and cover" this stuff's getting tired fast. You can only hunker in the bunker for so long before cabin fever sets in. ;)
You can only hunker in the bunker for so long before cabin fever sets in. ;)
You should know, you've been hiding in the sticks for quite a few years now... and we all know you're a bit feverish around these parts :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. But yeah, gotta come out in daylight for hours on end to moo the lawn and chase the bambis away from the hostas. Y'all got purty lips, boy. :)
'Hiring hunters to shoot down pigeons?' It was really crazy when I saw a rat go into the 239 car desk office and a sup grabbed me to kill a rat. I'll take the job...caveat emptor R142 0.45 calibre bullet holes...unless THEY want MY shotgun...12 gauge Magnum Buckshot exterminates pigeons. Car inspectors are utility assigned...WE do everything and I never turn down an assignment. Elephants and alligators in the tunnel...No Problem...a good Car Inspector can improvise...just takes a bigger bore. Tyrannasoruos Rex... go to the supply counter for a shoe paddle. To get rid of pigeons requires only to eliminate 'the food attraction' and to make these dirty birds uncomfortable and unwelcome. This is my work, this my new home, this is TA, THANKS ALOT. CI Peter
That's the spirit! (unless there's sarcasm implied in your post)
This AM I had a chance to speak at length with a T/O at 3rd ave on the L and have some breakign news:
1- 76 on the A line does exist! the tile is like Grant and has a diamond crossover and was intendffed for short turns.Two tracks, island platform.0
2- There are two more stations under Hillside Ave: 181 and Francis Lewis Blvd. The T/O said Francis Lewis is flooded and 181 is too close to 179.
Neither has tile but they ahce bare concrete walls and wall paltforms .
with two tracks.
3- The biggest breaking news-- the flyunder aon the Eigth Ave line near WTC goes to a never completed Worth Street Station on the IND! This station has two tracks and an island platform. IF the LIRR uses Cranberry Tube the LIRR will end here. This same T/O said the tube can handle 3 services and can handle 12 foot widse cars at 85 feet long.
Rolling Stock:
1-8133-8136 in service with 8137-8140 today on the L.
2- Some R62 A cars may become rider cars to replace all old riders due to asbestos concerns and a lawsuit which was filed.
3- R160 will resemblre R143 but without CBTC and without the balck front. The T/O said this is to fdistinguish between CBTC cars and non-CBTC cars. These will go to the A and N at first
4- R148- this may be the cares to be ordered for the 7 to finish reoplacing the redbirds. these will not have the red and black trim.
The best news yet- he will send me pictures and maps and I'll forward to Dave when I get them (assuming Dave will decide to put them up.)
Peggy has sent Dave some pages almost a year ago and they are still not up and the R143 updatres are not up either.
Pretty interesting! One typo though, I think you mean R-33 singles will become rider cars to replace a few of the older cars. Asbestos concerns? I guess the R-12/14/15 will wind up as part of the reef!
-Stef
I do not see how one coming from Brooklyn can get from the Cranberry tube to this imputed Worth St. station. The arrangements south of Canal would require that trains coming from Brooklyn have the ability to turn east onto Worth without crossing other tracks.
As has been mentioned here, the Feds would have conniptions if you had subway trains and LIRR trains operating on the *same* track.
Besides, the Cranberry tube is too narrow for LIRR cars. 75 foot cars are the longest that can be allowed through there, as the curves must be tken into account. 85 foot cars will just not get through. Also, how is the LIRR supposed to get to the Fulton line in the first place? There are IRT tracks at the same grade, and the BMT 4th Ave. lines are just below that, and the street is too close to the tunnel roof. Whoever came up with that one needs to do some footwork - check out the area, then come up with someting else, something that will not give the commuters who use the nearby subway lines headaches while this connection isbuilt - and I hope it never ges built.
Also, how is the LIRR supposed to get to the Fulton line in the first place?
I don't think it ever will. I also think some politician is trying to get their name in the paper for a cheap pop. Next fall on their way to being re-elected they'll be able to say:
"I supported mass transit!"
Besides, the Cranberry tube is too narrow for LIRR cars. 75 foot cars are the longest that can be allowed through there, as the curves must be tken into account. 85 foot cars will just not get through. Also, how is the LIRR supposed to get to the Fulton line in the first place? There are IRT tracks at the same grade, and the BMT 4th Ave. lines are just below that, and the street is too close to the tunnel roof. Whoever came up with that one needs to do some footwork - check out the area, then come up with someting else, something that will not give the commuters who use the nearby subway lines headaches while this connection is built - and I hope it never ges built.
In re: the abandoned stations. I think the T/O is pulling your leg.
I had that exact same thought.
Peace,
ANDEE
So did I, but I still choose to believe it anyway. It's more fun that way.
Anyone know about Myrtle Avenue on the BMT. I remember seeing that station ages ago but it seems to have disappeared. Was it paved over, torn down or what?
The southbound platform was removed to make room for the rearranged DeKalb interlocking.
The northbound platform is still there. Watch closely out of a passing Q train and you'll see the small signs on the station's pillars.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the Art Department of one of the local colleges or universities made a type of motion design (like the old comics that you would flip the pages and it would look like a motion picture). As a Conductor on the "D" train Manhattan bound I would be humored by the design. One in particular was a rocket ship being launched and moving horizontally.
Bklynsubwaybob
That's Masstransiscope. Unfortunately, it was vandalized about ten years ago, so the TA turned off the lights.
Thanks for the information. I didn't realize that it had a specific name. What a damn shame that it was vandalized; like it was bothering someone.
Bob
I doubt there's a seperate 181st St station, since the the stairways of the 179th Street station end past Midland Pkwy, which serves as 180th St. 181st St/Avon St is less than a block away.
:-) Andrew
Do not the lines continue a long way past the 179th Street station for the storage and relay of trains?
And on Two Levels too, layup 8 trains back there, maybe more if the tracks are longer.
Elias
The Upper Level has 4 tracks that can hold 2 trains each but only 6 trains at a time can be layed up. 8 cannot be layed up since two portions must stay clear at all times for relays (tracks 5 & 6).
The Lower Level also has 4 tracks but can only lay up 3 trains. 5 track is forbidden from having a layup on it (that is for relays as well).
So the upper level is longer than the lower level?
Or do the end at the same place, but the lower level needs more distance for the ramps?
Elias
The Upper Level is definitely longer than the Lower Level, but it's a few extra yards before the Lower Level "begins" as compared to the Upper Level. I would estimate that the Upper Level extends beyond the northern end of the 179 Street Station by about 1700 feet.
IIRC the line ends at 184th Place.
> assuming Dave will decide to put them up.)
> Peggy has sent Dave some pages almost a year ago and they are still
> not up and the R143 updatres are not up either.
Well since you're going to bring this up in public, you can tell Peggy that her writing needs a lot of editing before it's ready to post. Something I just don't have much time to do.
-Dave
Peggy can send it to me and I can do the editing...
-Hank
You mean that subwaybuff should tell peggy to send you the stuff for editing.
GR&D
Without some tangible evidence of any of these 'stations' it's simply not possible to just believe someone's word. Who is this T/O? How does he come by this information? Has he personally observed the stations, or is he basing his statements on "stuff he's heard"?
Back in the 1970s, I first heard rumor there was a station shell at Roosevelt. I knew a couple of T/Os on the QB routes who told me there absolutely was no such thing, and several of them said that the connection from 63rd Drive to the LIRR had most definitely been built but was just sealed off. Well, they were all wrong on both counts. Frankly, I won't take the "word" of anyone who cannot offer hard evidence -- meaning they can provide clear visual proof, and can provide some means for independent verification, such as readily accessible public documents or even arranging a tour.
I thought April 1st came and went already?
This AM I had a chance to speak at length with a T/O at 3rd ave on the L and have some breakign news:
1- 76 on the A line does exist! the tile is like Grant and has a diamond crossover and was intendffed for short turns.Two tracks, island platform.0
2- There are two more stations under Hillside Ave: 181 and Francis Lewis Blvd. The T/O said Francis Lewis is flooded and 181 is too close to 179.
Neither has tile but they ahce bare concrete walls and wall paltforms .
with two tracks.
3- The biggest breaking news-- the flyunder aon the Eigth Ave line near WTC goes to a never completed Worth Street Station on the IND! This station has two tracks and an island platform. IF the LIRR uses Cranberry Tube the LIRR will end here. This same T/O said the tube can handle 3 services and can handle 12 foot widse cars at 85 feet long.
And how does the T/O happen to know all this? My Urban Legend Detector is flashing yellow.
Mine if flashing lunar white. Slow down, or get tripped.
Mine is flashing lunar white. Slow down, or get tripped.
LOL, the trip has already happened.
Peace,
ANDEE
With all due respect, those first three items sound too good to be true. I agree with what's been said: we need some hard evidence. Otherwise, it's tabloid stuff.
i have a question:
Why will the r160 be non-CBTC? i thought all trains will be moving to this system eventually.
At the very least, they'll have space for the CBTC equipment. The contract calls for the cars to be in both 4-car and 5-car units. The 4-car units would go to the "Eastern Division." One plan had the 5-car units going to the E, which runs on the Queens Boulevard Line, which is expected to be an early recipient of CBTC after Canarsie and Flushing.
David
I wouldn't put too much stock in anything that Train Operator reported, beyond that R-143s 8133-8140 are in service, which is pretty easily checked.
David
It seems strange that they're going to order more cars for the IRT division when they replace the "Redbirds" on the 7. Does this mean that they may take some R-62As as you said and use them as rider cars? How many R-62As are they going to take out of passenger service to use as riders?
#3 West End Jeff
"76 on the A line does exist! the tile is like Grant and has a diamond crossover and was intendffed for short turns.Two tracks, island platform.0"
I'm confused....which end of the A did you mean, Brooklyn or Central Park West?
76th is "supposed" to be after Euclid if you kept going straight instead of turning towards Grant. There is no actually proof that it exists. It's sort of like a Loch Ness monster segment for Unsolved Mysteries. It does exist on a board, but there is no other physical or tangible proof that it exists.
When a train leave Euclid, first there are 2 tracks that go down and make a right for Pitkin Yard. Then there are 2 tracks that go up and make a left for Grant. There are still 4 tracks that keep on going. It's not a pic of the Loch Ness Monster. But it does prove something is there out of sight.
Douce Man, I hope you can prove this one day, finding 76th St would be sort of like finding out there really is a Loch Ness monster, etc. I don't know, sometimes I believe there may be something there, and sometimes I think ...no way. I may be almost 50/50 both ways, but I really hope it can be proven that there is.
Anybody know how much Kinko's charges for scanning an old map?
The alleged 76th Street Station is supposed to be part of the Fulton Street Extension of the IND Second System which would've taken the A train, had it not been routed only to Lefferts or the Rockaways, to 229th Street in Cambria Heights. The four tracks were to continue farther east, but if 76th Street is only two as this T/O says, that hints that the line would be ending way before Springfield Blvd.
Assuming we're looking at the same map (1939):
After Euclid there is a branch that goes to Lefferts. No turn off for Rockaway service. The other branch continues on what appears to be Pitkin Ave curving slightly southward as the road does now. As it approaches the Rockaway line, it runs crosses the area that is the racetrack or the parking lot. I don't know off hand exactly where was the racetrack before it was rebuilt in 1958. Also it turns off to connect with the Rockaway line. The route contines. It probably runs along Linden Blvd. At Van Wyck Blvd it crosses and makes a customer transfer with the IND line coming south from Queens Blvd. The line ends up at 229 Street.
Yes, that's the same map on the back cover of Stan Fishchler's the Subway. That same map is also available in the "Twelve Historical and Transit Maps of New York, Part II." My transit plans makes use of this extension, as nothing goes to waste in a scenario committed 100% in provided adequate mass transit. I'm sure the MTA has learned now not to provide provisions and talk about extensions that they have no intention of using.
I think it's a matter of NYC changing their minds about a particular route. Because of 1929 and later WW2 they couldn't afford to build a new subway line. So they connected their route to an El (which they would do anyway). At a future date they would get back to building the line. But for now they have what they had built.
There were also several ways of connecting their line to the LIRR Rockaway Beach line. But they chose a connection that was not what they first planned.
There were also several ways of connecting their line to the LIRR Rockaway Beach line. But they chose a connection that was not what they first planned.
I always wondered why the Rockaway Branch was connected where they did. They chose the circulous Fulton Subway instead of connecting it to 63rd Drive. I don't understand why they chose to abandon half of the Rockaway line, which would have given intermediate service to a whole stretch in Queens, that has no rail service.
Subway stations could have been constructed at:
-101 Avenue (use the old LIRR Ozone Park Station.)
-Atlantic Avenue (use the old concrete LIRR Woodhaven station)
-Jamaica Avenue (site of LIRR Brooklyn Manor station-transfer to Woodhaven on the J)
-Myrtle Avenue
-Union Turnpike
-Metropolitan Avenue (site of Parkside Station)
-Yellowstone Blvd
-Austin Street
Maybe that's all the ROW the TA bought from the LIRR - up to Liberty Ave.
Maybe that's all the ROW the TA bought from the LIRR - up to Liberty Ave
I always thought the TA owned the entire ROW. WHo owns it is the subway doesn't own it. Does the LIRR still own it. THey are all MTA anyway aren't they?
The TA owns the entire right of way. That is why the LIRR did not rip anything out. In fact, after the TA bought the line, they leased the part from Rego Park to Ozone Park back to the LIRR so they could operate until they gave it up in the early 60's.
-Mark
I thought they did. It still makes no sense to me why they just used the lower half. The abandoned end would have been such an asset to the system.
The northern end of the Rockaway line WAS originally supposed to be operated by NYCT as part of the Winfield Spur (disused section on the Queens Line, north of (geographically east) Roosevelt Avenue station (E,F,G,R,V level))and would have gone south to connect to the present A line ROW. This line would have been a more direct line from Midtown to the Rockaways as part of the second phase of the IND subway back in 1929. But the Great Depression put that on hold, and now the line is just a derelict line gone to waste due to the Depression, fiscal crises, NIMBYs and political hoopla.
Anyone willing to bust through the bulkhead at the end of the line past the Grant Ave. turnoff?:-)
How could there be a separate station at 181st Street? That doesn't make sense to me. I hope this T/O wasn't joking with you. And a two side platforms with two tracks? No, no that's not possible. The relay tracks of the upper level go past through that area, so there's no way that can be true. He probably meant as a four track station. Unless this station is on the lower level relay tracks, before it splits into four tracks.
The only way I could see that there is a possible station at 181st Street is that during the planning stages of extending the IND to Jamaica, the extension from 169th Street was to go out to Springfield Blvd. and the next station after 169th Street was to be 181st Street. But the eastern Queens extension never happened and plans were changed and 179th Street was chosen to be the extension after 169, and as the line's new terminal. Now that's the only logic I think of that would justify the existence of a incomplete station that close to 179th Street, because 179, was probably not the intended station to follow 169.
There's one way to solve the mystery of this station. F trains relay through that area, so any T/O or crew at 179 would know if there are platforms east of 179. It's a matter of asking them. Or somehow getting a ride on a relaying train and paying close attention to the tunnel walls to keep an eye out for the point where the walls are farther away from the train as usual, indicating that there is a platform of some kind there. But then there's is the tunnel lighting issue. The relay area doesn't look to well lighted along the tunnel walls, so it may be difficult to see anything.
Seriously mindspring, if you can find out for sure about this and get the maps this T/O said he would get for you, e-mail me a copy. I would certainly like to know. You've been receivng my transit plans. So you have my email. I could probably make adjustments on my F and R Hillside Avenue Extension to accommodate this, especially when I'll do the track maps for the expanded system. There I would be able to at least acknowledge that there was to be station 181st Street, by inserting the platforms. Francis Lewis Blvd. is not a problem as I already have that station along the Extension. Speaking of Francis Lewis, is that station connected to the rest of the Hillside Avenue line? If so, it would mean the trackways would continue past the bumper blocks at 184th Place on the upper level. And how did it get flooded anyway?
I just read a little article that freight service should return to Staten Island by 2004. The lift bridge has already been rehabilitated and the only loose ends are approach and connecting track work plus a 14.5 million $ overhaul of the Arlington Yard. The impetus behind the revival is the Howard Hook Marine terminal that clogs the Gothals Bridge w/ trucks. The rail link should remove 56,000 trucks a year from the bridge.
People might not be aware that SIRR is not MTA SIRy (SIRTOA) and that this doesn't mean that we can expect to see freight at St. George or beyond any time soon.
It would be great if they could run passenger service to and from NJ.
It would be great if they could run passenger service to and from NJ.
They do. From all sorts of places. Just not from SI.
Seriously, that would be a major undertaking. MTA just doesn't want to. They won't even run b---s (those contraptions that roll on rubber thingies) from SI to NJ. Perhaps, if therewere some other "they," such as NJT, who wanted to . . .
Do you have any particular place in NJ you want them to serve from SI?
I doubt MTA can legally institute any interstate operations except by a new compact between the states. The current MTA joint operations in NJ pre-existed the MTA.
If the buses are run by NYCT they're not even permitted to leave the CITY, under the law that created the Transit Authority. How many decades was it before they finally figure out a way to get the Q5 and Q86 into Green Acres so people who wanted to shop wouldn't have to walk from the City Line or take one of the Nassau County buses out of Jamaica?
What about the TA's SI express buses that go through NJ? Is that because they don't actually receive or discharge passangers there?
>>>Is that because they don't actually receive or discharge passangers there? <<<
That is the EXACT reason. Although, IIRC, they had to get special dispensation even for that.
Peace,
ANDEE
They had to get dispensation due to their size - the original buses used were wider than what is normally allowed on NJTP.
IIRC, NYC buses, like the GMC TDH4510s (4000 series) that were the mainstay of Brooklyn service in the 50's, were 8 feet 6 inches wide and Interstate Highway System regulations prohibited buses wider than 8 feet, so most cities eventually adopted 8 feet as the maximum bus width.
I suppose the 6000 series Macks in Staten Island were also 8'6". Those buses were wonderful to ride, especially on Staten Island. Those same Macks provided the base service out of Ulmer Park Depot.
I doubt MTA can legally institute any interstate operations except by a new compact between the states. The current MTA joint operations in NJ pre-existed the MTA.
All very true, but very much besides the point. The same legislature that "owns" the MTA makes the laws. Saying that it is illegal, when the State is the owner, is just another way of saying that the owners of the railroad don't want to do it.
I doubt MTA can legally institute any interstate operations except by a new compact between the states. The current MTA joint operations in NJ pre-existed the MTA.
All very true, but very much besides the point. The same legislature that "owns" the MTA makes the laws. Saying that it is illegal, when the State is the owner, is just another way of saying that the owners of the railroad don't want to do it.
My point is that the MTA is owned by New York but cannot operate in New Jersey without mutual agreement between both states. It is not up to New York alone, so the point about the legislature is moot.
Also, the MTA probably doesn't want to do it.
Also, the MTA probably doesn't want to do it.
Now, I think we're getting to the heart of the problem. New York bureaucrats think that New York is the Middle Kingdom. Consequently, they think, the barbarians from NJ need to come here much more than we need to go there. That being the case, they believe that it is the responsibility of the barbarians to provide all transportation across the frontier.
As one who has lived in both NY and NJ (born and raised in NJ), I think that is mostly the way it really is!!!!!
>> How many decades was it before they finally figure out a way to get the Q5 and Q86 into Green Acres so people who wanted to shop wouldn't have to walk from the City Line or take one of the Nassau County buses out of Jamaica? <<
That may have been as much a problem with the shopping mall as anything else. Nassau County buses used to stop at Broadway Mall until the mall asked them to leave. Green Acres may not have had much enthusiasm for busloads of city riders being dumped there.
City of Buffalo had a very serious discrimination case brought against a mall (upheld by NYS Court of Appeals) by people from the city who used to take a bus out to a mall on the outskirts (outside city limits). Mall forced the busses out of the mall where there had been a bus stop and several shoppers were killed by traffic crossing the road from the bus stop into and out of the mall ... mall lost the case and so did the city of Buffalo. Busses now come to the mall again as a result.
If Broadway mall has anything worthwhile, some civil attorneys might be able to get their attention ...
Andrew, in the specific case of Green Acres, I doubt the mall didn't want the service--the southeast Queens community has been an important part of Green Acres business for decades, Green Acres being the only real shopping center of any size of quality in that neck of the woods.
Queens people could get there on the Nassau County buses originating in Jamaica--it was the City buses that couldn't go through because ofthe NYCTA law.
Coach USA runs buses between SI and Exchange Place / Newport...
But the equipment and the schedules suck.
NJT does lots of cross-state stuff, GWB, PABT, and Philly to name a few. They could if they wanted to.
Actually, NJT might be able to bring up weekend ridership on the HBLR by providing a bus from SI to 22st (let's face it, if they were to consider this it'll probably be well after that stop gets built). Easy access to Liberty State Park and Newport Mall.
I could see NJT running Raritan Valley trains down the SIRR Row, accross the Kill and into St. George Terminal. The best part is that the whole junction b/t the former CNJ Raritan Valley Line and the SIRR line occurs at CP-Aldene where the CNJ crosses the former Conrail Lehigh Line. This is important because most of the freight traffic out of Staten Island will be containers. The Lehigh Line is the promary outlet for containers out of the New York area to the south and east. The freighs lines would probably foot some of the bill to re-habilitate the RoW out to CP-Aldene. Once it was in place NJT could run passenger trains to St. George.
Except the line is being abandoned west of the to-be-built connection to the Chemical Coast.
-Hank
Right. The whole reason for the new helix between the SIRR and the Chemical Coast is to shut up the NIMBYs between Aldene and the new connection.
When it's done, what company does the SIRR row belong to? Canadian Pacific? That's what I heard from Canadian Pacific, as they were looking for some way to get into the New York market.
If the NJT DOES run service to St. George, would St. George be able to handle NJT trains? And wouldn't they also need MTA permission to run trains into St. George, as I believe the terminal is MTA property, right?
-John!
Well Woodbridge, Perthy Amboy,etc.
Considering how close Staten Island is to that part of NJ, it is a shame that no transit (bus or otherwise) is available between.
Considering how close Staten Island is to that part of NJ, it is a shame that no transit (bus or otherwise) is available between.
Agreed.
Considering how close Staten Island is to that part of NJ, it is a shame that no transit (bus or otherwise) is available between.
Agreed.
It would almost be worth someone's while setting up a Richmond - Jersey Transit Corporation.
I used mass transit between Staten Island and Perth Amboy, but it couldn't take me far inland, since it floated.
I have never ridden on NJT commuter trains before, but I do know they are vastly different from LIRR rolling stock. Do these trains have a railfan window like the LIRR M-1/3's? They do use overhead lines instead of 3rd rail like LIRR, so the the power supply is quite different. What about signalling?
It should be an interesting ride, on a non-MTA operated rail line.
I definately will be taking pictures.
NJT commuter trains are powered by overhead wires, and the ones I have ridden do not have railfan windows, sad to say. There are MUs as well as push-pull trains with toaster locomotives. I have to say, the push-pull train I rode was a lot nicer and newer than the MUs I've usually ridden on the Northeast Corridor line.
Mark
NJT Trains have the possibility of a railfan view. The storm door has a window and the door into the vestabule also has a window, but it is usually covered by black point or a metal plate. Sometimes this paint or metal plate is scratched off/lowered.
And on Comet IVs, since the window is lightly tinted anyway and the T/O has an extra door for his cab, the window is often kept clear.
There was a small portion at the top of the window of the last car of the mu train that I rode last Saturday from Hamilton to Trenton that allowed me to get a look at the circus train parked in Hamilton Twp.
I was on that exact same MU last June. They must not change the trainsets much.
NJT commuter trains are also powered by diesel engines. Those trains originate in either Hoboken or Newark. Also, all trains from New York en route to Dover, Summit, or Gladstone consist of ALP-44 engines and push-pull coaches. The MU's cannot handle the difference in voltage when the trains switch from the Northeast Corridor to the M&E.
The MU's cannot handle the difference in voltage when the trains switch from the Northeast Corridor to the M&E.
Is this because there are more pantographs, preventing a simultaneous voltage switch? Or are the MUs not set up for an easy voltage change?
If the latter, how do they transfer the single unit MUs from Hoboken Div. for service on the Princeton JCT shuttle?
If the latter, how do they transfer the single unit MUs from Hoboken Div. for service on the Princeton JCT shuttle?
They are sent to the Meadowlands Shop to be rewired for 12,000 volts. NJT MU's don't have something called a "transformer". A transformer is a "voltage changer" installed on all ALP-44 locomotives to handle voltage changes. A step-up AND a step-down transformer is installed so that Morristown line trains can switch from 12KV to 25KV or vice versa without any harm.
You don't have to use quotes to define something as basic as a transformer.
I will be taking a direct train both ways, so it will be powered by an electric locomotive.
Interesting, I can't wait!
Try the Midtown Direct service from Penn Station. They also go to Summit, saving you a separate trip to Hoboken. The ALP-44's with push pull coaches operate out of Penn because of the voltage change. MU's are seem to operate out of Hoboken. Skip LI Bus and take an Oyster Bay train to Mineola or Jamaica and out to Penn Sta. That should save you some time.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's how I go to Millburn.
MU's are seem to operate out of Hoboken.
The only line out of Hoboken powered by electric MU's are the Gladstone Branch and the newly constructed Montclair "Connection" (scheduled to open Sept. 30)
MU's are seem to operate out of Hoboken.
The only line out of Hoboken powered by electric trains are the Gladstone Branch and the newly constructed Montclair "Connection" (scheduled to open Sept. 30)
MU's only serve the Gladstone Branch.
The signaling to Summit was re-done in and around 1983 and consists of US&S modular traffic light style signals with small targets. More recent installations are of US&S type round target signals. The overhead wire was installed in the 30's by the DL&W and then replaced in 1983 when the line converted to 25kv AC. All the poles and hangers are original, the wire uses modern lightweight insulators and a quasi-constant tension system. Linespeeds do not exceed 79mph. There is a small yard st Summit as well as a tower built into the side of the station retaining wall. If you could take some pics of the tower at Summit and/or the switch machine and signals it would be greatly appriciated.
Sure I should get a chance, as long as the tower is near the station I'll do it. It might rain tomorrow, but I'm still going.
>>>I definately will be taking pictures.<<<
Please... it's DEFINITELY....check a dictionary.
Peace,
ANDEE
P.S.:Sorry to be the spelling police but, this annoys the shit out of me. You are not the only one who does it either.
I howp I downt doo it - iff I doo, pleez let mee no!
lol
> this annoys the [CENSORED] out of me.
You know what annoys it out of me? Profane language!
- Lyle Goldman
>>You know what annoys it out of me? Profane language!
- Lyle Goldman <<
What annoys me is the not using of capital letters in sentences on this board.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry to be the spelling police but, this annoys the shit out of me. You are not the only one who does it either.
You know what annoys it out of me? Profane language!
What annoys me is the not using of capital letters in sentences on this board.
And a number of people have expressed annoyance at John for his incessant complaining.
Lighten up. :)
I did use capital letters.
- Lyle Goldman
We're sorry, we'll stop if you don't go tattle-taling on us to teacher or your mommy and daddy.
Hey, why is it that you respond to almost every posting that I make, usually with some snide comment? Do you actually do a search for messages that I post?
- Lyle Goldman
Hey, why is it that you respond to almost every posting that I make, usually with some snide comment?
I respond to the posts of a lot of people, maybe it just so happens that you and I gravitate to the same threads (I use reverse threaded view). As for snide responses, I'll respond to an informational question you may have truthfully and honestly, but your profane language post deserved nothing more than a snide response. What kind of problem do you have with words? Nobody's using them to put you down, so there shouldn't be a problem.
A lot of us have a problem with profane language, Pig... something about "respect" that seems to be sorely lacking in society today. It doesn't have to be directed at us to offend us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do these trains have a railfan window like the LIRR M-1/3's?
Not on the push-pulls, neither on the MU's (unless if you're lucky and the engineer leaves the metal panel down). The metal panel says "NO ADMITTANCE". On Comet IV's the window is "blackened" by tar material that can be scratched off. On the other end you have the locomotive.
Even if you have a good railfan window, there are conductors moving sporadically through the engineer's cab, so caution about that. The rear brakeman will get you in the back of the train.
On diesel-powered trains, unless if its rush hour, the conductor closes off the end cars accordingly.
If you want to see more NJT rolling stock (including the close=up of a ALP-46, visit The Unofficial NJ TRANSIT Webpage .
They do use overhead lines instead of 3rd rail like LIRR, so the the power supply is quite different.
Power on the NEC (Newark Division) is wired at 12,000 volts, 25 Hz. Power on the Morristown line and the Gladstone Branch (Hoboken Division) is wired at 25,000 volts, 60 Hz. Because the voltage is higher, the current is able to flow in a smaller sized wire.
Orange triangular stickers at the ends and beneath the center doors will tell you the voltage the train's wired for.
Arrow III's have to go to the shop to be compatible between voltages.
Enjoy your trip and make sure to ride all of NJT's other lines also! (The diesel lines especially and the NJCL will leave you with many unforgettable experiences and memories!)
--Just a little note, center doors do not open even though Summit is a high-platform station.
Actually, at least on the Main/Bergen lines, the cab car is usually kept open at all times since it's the only one with a bathroom. Although I've seen on some inbound Port Jervis trains they tend to keep it closed until Suffern.
So you disembark from the vestibule, like on the "old diesel" cars the LIRR once used.
Well most of my pics will be at and around the Summit train station.
I'll have to ride some other NJT lines someday.
Thanks for the tips, I'll check out the website you mentioned.
If you ride the Boonton Line, the Rowe St station is like a 2 minute walk from my habitat. But don't come around looking for free drinks or asking to use my bathroom, cause I don't open my door for nobody!
(except maybe Toni...)
Also, on the Hoboken Division lines, it is a tossup of what type of cars will be on your train. The NJT-owned Metro-North Comets are *supposed to* only run on the Main/Bergen and Pascack Valley Lines, but I routinely see them on the Boonton Line. But I've never seen the Shoreliners on any other lines except the Main/Bergen and usually only on the Port Jervis trains at that.
Also, the NJT Arrow I's/Comet IA, and the Metro-North Comet IB may look identical on the outside, but they are completely different inside!
The MN cars have a little booth where the center door would be on an Arrow, but the NJT ones don't, for one, and the seats are completely different (flip-syle on MN, fixed on NJT).
NJT also seems to be having a retro fetish. Notice how the oldest cars had flip seats and center doors (on the Arrows at least), the mid-age cars have fixed seats and no center doors, but the newest cars (Comet III, IV, V), go back to flip seats and center doors!
I bet if the Arrow I's were being rebuilt today, they would keep the center doors!
Have fun, and enjoy NJ Transit's variety of styles!
Well, I am not the biggest fan or supporter of Robert Moses and what he did. He destroyed plans for a Second Avenue Subway Line and the IND second system when they had the funding, and drained it towards his massive highway projects, especially the most difficult public works project in a city before the big dig super project...the Cross Bronx Expressway, which gutted East Tremont, that’s another story for those who are interested of the bloody history of the Cross Bronx. Title 1 projects evicting people, for commercial developments.
Then again people would say he was a great man, for he prepared NYC to handle the automobiles of the future, that the highways he built were necessary, and that with out the highways being built that NYC wouldn’t be able to thrive the way it has today. That also the clearing of the slums improved life greatly, by improving life conditions and how the projects improved the life of thousands if not hundreds of thousands...also he built countless parks around the city.
So should he be remembered for putting his hand in creating the NYC we know today? Or for ruining transit, and destroying any chance for NYC to expand cause of the limits of the NYC subway system?
Perhaps things are best left unmentioned and left Robert Moses {yuck ptooey) remain as a part of history.
IMO, the sooner FORGOTTEN the better. Petty miserable little shell of a man who destroyed many neighborhoods in The Bronx when he didn't have to.
Peace,
ANDEE
How best remembered///for rail people? In effigy at the end of a rope.
Gotta hand it to the guy. He got things done. In these days it's half impossible to widen an existing highway or do anything substantial in public works--road or transit--it's amazing to think that Robert Moses managed to build a whole metropolitan area's worth of roads, crossings, and parks.
It is easy to blame him for the last sixty-odd years of inaction with transit expansions, and the general favoring the car has over the train. But the fact is that since the 1940's, road transport has been the focus of America, with or without him. Moses rode the wave of the love affair with the car. He didn't create it.
In fact, can you imagine what it would be like trying to drive around the NY area had his massive public works projects not happenned? The Cross-Bronx, BQE, LIE, Belt, Van Wyck, etc--can you imagine NY without them? They might be hopelessly inadequate in light of today's Interstate standards, but what if that traffic were on loacl streets instead?
NYC needs public transit. We need more of it. Much more. But we need our highways too.
:-) Andrew
Moses should be remembered as practically the last person in New York who was able to get major projects accomplished. We can argue from now until Doomsday whether his ideas were good or bad, but there's no doubt that he was a can-do person extraordinaire.
Even though I haven't seen anything that altered my core understandings of Moses' huge negative accomplishments, I can appreciate the good things he also did. Among them are the fact that he created most of the Long Island parks, which are so heavily used by the same NYC residents that have suffered from his anti-transit attitudes.
And, of course, the Long Island beaches. Not just that he had Jones Beach built, but that he preserved that and much of the entire barrier beach system from private development. Just look at Ocean City, MD, or Virginia Beach, VA, to see what the Long Island beaches would probably have looked like, if not for his early intervention.
In fact, I've been told by more than one person who have been to the Riviera that the Long Island beaches are nicer. They're oriented to the sun in the same way as the French beacges, but without the huge hotels looming overhead.
I would recommend Robert Caro's The Empire Builder to anyone who wants a broad view of Moses. Although the book has been commonly damned as being one-sidedly against Moses (mostly, I suppose, by people who didn't read the huge tome) it is really quite balanced. It's all in there.
(I would recommend Robert Caro's The Empire Builder to anyone who wants a broad view of Moses. Although the book has been commonly damned as being one-sidedly against Moses (mostly, I suppose, by people who didn't read the huge tome) it is really quite balanced. It's all in there.)
I read the tome. I don't doubt Caro's view that Moses was an SOB who went wrong by failing to listen to anyone and change his views as the times warrented. I do doubt his view that Moses was responsible for the American car culture, or the decline of New York City. Caro's into the great man theory of history. I believe that Moses rode the social wave, he didn't create it.
Caro's entire thesis -- that Moses' highway wrecked the city -- hinges on the chapter on East Tremont. There, he claims, white flight didn't occur -- it stalled -- until Moses ran the highway through. Then it did, thus proving that Moses and the highways created the white flight to the suburbs, etc. that lead the city down. He makes the same case, to a lesser extent, in Sunset Park.
He thus ignores all the neighborhoods without highways that the white middle class fled after WWII (ie. most of Brooklyn, which only got a couple of highways) and all the neighborhoods that didn't become desperately poor after the road went through (ie. the FDR and the Upper East Side).
Caro does admit in the book that producing public works that benefit the region in the long run but hurt the locals in the short run is difficult. He wrote this in 1972. He has never reconsidered the balance, after 30 years when nothing was built.
As for Moses, he has enough named after him already.
One small point: the FDR Drive doesn't run through the Upper East Side; it runs along its edge. Big difference. (It's also a parkway, not an expressway. Less of a difference but still worth noting.)
I read the tome. I don't doubt Caro's view that Moses was an SOB who went wrong by failing to listen to anyone and change his views as the times warrented. I do doubt his view that Moses was responsible for the American car culture, or the decline of New York City. Caro's into the great man theory of history. I believe that Moses rode the social wave, he didn't create it.
I both agree and disagree with that point. I agree that Moses was not the sole mover in these things. In general, this is why I reject theories that say "if not for (some specific individual) the world would still be the same as it was 100 years ago, but more of it."
It is worth considering, for example, that the individual mobility afforded by automobiles was so attractive that auto registration in the U.S. continued to increase even during the Great Depression, and before Moses had his greatest impact on transportation planning.
I disagree with what I take to be your implication of "riding the social wave." Moses was one of those who not merely had, but skillfully acquired, the power to channel social waves in ways that matched his world view.
Caro's entire thesis -- that Moses' highway wrecked the city -- hinges on the chapter on East Tremont. There, he claims, white flight didn't occur -- it stalled -- until Moses ran the highway through. Then it did, thus proving that Moses and the highways created the white flight to the suburbs, etc. that lead the city down. He makes the same case, to a lesser extent, in Sunset Park.
Again I will both grant and dispute points. There were many social forces that in addition to Moses shaped both specific and general decline in the City. However, this does not mean that his policies and building didn't have impact.
In terms of the subject that most interests the people on this forum, I would argue that various entities, including such as Moses, Henry Ford*, federal interest in highway building, and National City Lines and its component backers, contributed to a precipitous decline in the electric railway industry which precluded what might have been a more balanced transportation system.
IOW, we would certainly have many more autos and highways now than in 1930 even if Moses (and those other movers) had never existed, or had been so powerful, but we would also probably have more surviving viable rail transit systems in a broader range of locations than today. And there is at least the possibility that more systems would still be in the hands of private operators instead of political bureaucracies.
*I mention Henry Ford not because of his mass production techniques (i.e., Model T) but because of his (take your choice of stubborn and/or visionary) refusal to back the Lincoln Highway because he perceived that the taxpayers could be made to fund highways directly.
And there is at least the possibility [had there been no Moses or his ilk] that more systems would still be in the hands of private operators instead of political bureaucracies.
Now that's an intriguing thesis. You may be right, but how do you square it with the fact that the IRT and BMT ceased to be financially viable before Moses was near his peak of power?
And there is at least the possibility [had there been no Moses or his ilk] that more systems would still be in the hands of private operators instead of political bureaucracies.
Now that's an intriguing thesis. You may be right, but how do you square it with the fact that the IRT and BMT ceased to be financially viable before Moses was near his peak of power?
Actually, that makes my point. Because a specific individual or agency wasn't involved in a particular case doesn't prove that that person or agency was guiltless in other cases. It just demonstrates that (in this example Moses) wasn't the sole cause.
The IRT and the BMT suffered at the hands of government forces, some peculiar to New York, and others of like mein to Moses. The IRT additionally suffered from some classically bad business decisions that helped put it under, but there is no reason to assume, absent the government intervention in the marketplace, that the IRT would not have been succeeded by another private operator.
And don't forget that you are incorrect in saying that the "BMT ceased to be financially viable." The BMT was a solvent company and even showing a tiny profit, City and all, to the bitter end.
Despite thinking I was being funny in anearlier post on this subject the horrible truth is Robert Moses only gave people what they wanted and for those who could afford it[I swear no offense meant...but read white] that meant homes in the suburbs and cars, not spending life in 3 rooms or if lucky 4 or 5 room apartments. I aspired to owning a home from childhood, first Brooklyn were taxes were low and the el was near meaning I could live without a car [sometime did];now in Montana. It disgusts me that people will drive even a few blocks in town rather than walk and that cars are "God" here as in Jersey or California; but until people can't breathe as was imminent in some areas they'll say cars first. I hate it but that's life. I'm sure someone else has said similar but I can't a;; read all posts.
Caro's entire thesis -- that Moses' highway wrecked the city -- hinges on the chapter on East Tremont. There, he claims, white flight didn't occur -- it stalled -- until Moses ran the highway through. Then it did, thus proving that Moses and the highways created the white flight to the suburbs, etc. that lead the city down. He makes the same case, to a lesser extent, in Sunset Park.
I had thought that Tremont was almost certainly destined to be "white flighted" even without the Cross-Bronx due to demographic changes. Most of the whites who lived in the neighborhood right before the CBX came through were elderly people who weren't going to be around much longer, while almost all of the people who had been moving into the 'hood in the pre-CBX years were minority. Building the CBX merely gave a modest boost to an almost inevitable population shift.
I don't know as much about Sunset Park beyond what I read (many moons ago) in Caro.
There's no book by Caro that I'm aware of called "The Empire Builder" about Moses. Isn't that book called "The Power Broker?"
No, the book is "The Empire Builder." The train to the Pacific Northwest is "The Power Broker." :)
Huh?
It's a joke, son. Yes, I meant "The Power Broker."
A good memorial idea for Robert Moses....
Put a picture of his face on the bottoms of every subway seat in the system, and make his face look like its puckering up.
Humm. We form a foundation that supplies plumbing fixtures for public restrooms. The toilets and urinals have little pictures of various public figures from the past, Boss Tweed and Robert Moses among them. Donald Manes and Bess Myerson would be among the modern honorees.
More seriously, I have thought that someone should built a monument someplace in the city, putting in bronze the famous Nast cartoon of Boss Tweed as a vulture, captioned 'Let us Prey". You then have names placed on this monument, names which need to be forever associated with that of William Marcy Tweed.
Then, the endowment pays for a dinner every few years for the city's newspapermen, who nominate new 'Tweed Prize' honorees.
Who were Donald Manes and Bess Myerson?
Donald Manes was the Queens Borough President in the 1980's. He commited suicide in the midst of a scandal which (IIRC) involved the theft of parking violation money.
---Andrew
What happens when the Borough President dies/resigns in office? Who succeeds him/her?
I think Claire Shulman came in after Manes. An appointment, but by who I don't know.
The job of borough president is pretty much just ceremonial, it has no real power.
At the time, the Borough President sat on the Board of Estimate, the principal administrative body of the city.
Someone else explained Queens Borough President Donald Manes, and his suicide (he stabbed himself in the heart!) after having had his fingers caught in flagrante delicto in the cookie jar.
There's a rather crude, only-in-NY joke about this one. What did Henry VIII, Rock Hudson and Donald Manes have in common? They all [bleep]ed Queens.
Bess Myerson is a former Miss American (late 40s?), and after that a professional celebrity doing TV commercials and game shows. She was one of the Mayor's commissioners (culture? tourism?). Her boyfriend (the name Tommy Capano comes to mind) was in all sorts of trouble and she exercised her influence over the city system: she got caught. I forget if she was indicted/tried, but she did eventually get off, tho her boyfriend did time as I recall. The press called it 'the Bess Mess'.
Hey Dave,
I finally uploaded the pics from Hong Kong. They're sorta okay, but I don't know if you're gonna like 'em or not. I have them all bound up in .ctf (album) format, so please tell me if you want them in that form, or if you would like me to go the old attachment-only route, that is also fine with me.
Oh yeah, and I'm working on the line description for the "East" Rail commuter line. I'll squeeze that in with the pictures.
-John Leung
P.S. I don't know if Hotmail is going to let me send the file thru attachments, seeing that it's over 500 KB. If you wish, I can send the file to you via courier on a CD-R or something. Please tell me your preference.
According to a member of railroad.net:
Fire
1402 suffered a fire in the main transformer-high voltage bus. The cause hasn't been determined, yet, but initially it appears that debris was drawn up underneath and caused the main bus to arc.
The engineer fought the fire with extinguishers (4 of them), and it was finally controlled by the NY Fire Dept. This took place on track 4 NYP.
Does anyone have any other information involving this?
What is the "main bus to arc"?
A "bus", in this context, is a conducting bar that carries heavy current to supply several electrical circuits. Apparently it shorted out on debris and caused an arc of electricity.
(To Jeff H.: is that 100% accurate?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah. Apparently from what I've heard, debris got caught up under the train where the HV lead comes down from the roof and goes into the transformer (and line breaker?). This would be the HV bus. These types of connections are not normally insulated much, since it's really expensie and hard to insulate everything to those high voltages (and add a safety barrier - 40,000 volt insulation isn't easy to come by).
Bus can be a conductor bar (bus bar), or just a thick line.
Something got up in there and created enough or a path that the electricity arced out and either started a sustained arc, or lit the junk on fire. Bad either way...
i was at the transit museum gallery at gct today and i noticed they had the huge platform subway maps for sale but there was no price. i was going to ask someone who worked there how much they were but they seemed like they didn't wanna be bothered. does anyone know how much they are? also did they have number plates from redbirds for sale not long ago? if they did i didn't see any today.
thanks,
tim
If I remember correctly, the large maps are $10.00 each.
damn i shoulda picked one up. one more question, do you know what month/year the maps are? i didn't feel like taking them out of the plastic and unrolling them and then re-rolling them, etc.
That I could not tell you.
I would venture a guess and say that they are from last year or possibly 2000. Of course it could be a January 2002 edition. They only way to tell is to open it and unroll a part of it. The date will bet in the big box at the top right or as foot note at the bottom left.
Why not give them a call 212-878-0106 and ask them.
>>i was going to ask someone who worked there how much they were but they seemed like they didn't wanna be bothered.<<
I would have asked him/her anyway. That's their job.
Bill "Newkirk"
actually i was a volunteer tour guide for the Transit museum. Admission is 3 dollars when it was open. its currently closed for renovations, but they intend to call me back when it reopens, so i will let you know
Tim was asking about the cost of the large map. Not the admission price to the Museum.
Sometimes they GIVE those kind of things away if you buy $30 worth of other stuff ... I got a MetroCard poster (5 Years 94-99) that way.
Pick out a book you want & give them a call.
Mr rt__:^)
I picked up one of those wall maps a few years ago at the museum itself. They shipped it to me in Colorado for a few bucks extra.
Most there will go out of their way to help you.
They offered to ship it when I told them where I was from. That map is still in its cardboard tube. I need to find some wall space for it.:-)
Tim, I have some friends at the Transit Museum. Here is their official response:
Hi Andee--
Thanks so much for letting me know about the subway wall map questions. Our
poster display area at GCT is not the greatest because we have such a small
space, so we created a book which has images of all the posters and maps
available with prices and sizes. I'm sorry we were not able to share that
information with South Brooklyn Tim. I hope he'll come back and visit us
again. I've forwarded his comments to our store supervisors and staff.
Here's an FYI: the subway wall maps are $15.00 each (3'x5'), copyright
MTA/December 2001. These are the most current maps available. They can be
mail-ordered by calling the store at Grand Central (212 878 0106).
He also asked about number plates from Redbirds: We sell them for the a mere
$8.00 a piece. The price recently went up, as they are becoming more rare.
We have them in stock, but some days they sell out on the floor and stock
from the warehouse has not been replenished. Customers only need to ask and
we can make a special trip to get them. We anticipate getting a few Redbird
de-accessioned items over the course of the next few months, including grab
handles, roll signs, etc.
Best,
Amy
Amy Hausmann
Manager, Retail Operations
New York Transit Museum
130 Livingston Street, 9th Floor
Brooklyn, NY 11201
you didn't have to do that, thanks again. looks like i'll be making a trip over there today after work. i really wanna get a roll sign, i wonder how much they will go for.
thanks again,
tim
No trouble at all. I am in retailing myself and employees who could care less are not to be tolerated.
If you send me your E-mail address I'll let you know when they get the rollsigns..
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow ... wonder if they can "accession" a pair of stands and a brake handle for my own BVE sim. Heh. Haven't heard back on any interest for what I had suggested past the last email I shared with you privately, but if they're not going to go with the idea, I'm willing to try any cheap trick to get my mitts on a pair of stands before they go swimming. After all, R32's felt like Redbird duty in the cab. Not at ALL like an R9 ... but schoolcar taught me how to handle redbird/R32 type controls also. Next best thing since I didn't have the sense God gave Heypaul to grab some when those could be had. ;)
Calm down, boy...you will not be 4gotten...see my e
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd also love to get my hands on a rollsign. And a strap. And a bench, but that's probably asking too much.
No trouble at all. I am in retailing myself and employees who could care less are not to be tolerated.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd love to get a rollsign. I have one from the R46's.
wo, Andee ... thank you for sharing this.
With all the Redbirds being retired and the availability of items from them being around for a short time, wonder if the NYTM would consider another auction and tag sale, though w/o the museum open, I don't know where it would be held ...
--Mark
wow, Andee ... thank you for sharing this.
With all the Redbirds being retired and the availability of items from them being around for a short time, wonder if the NYTM would consider another auction and tag sale, though w/o the museum open, I don't know where it would be held ...
--Mark
No problem, Mark. I hope to be able to inform everyone a little ahead of time IINWIM. I hope that they just don't pester the folks at the museum!!! They have their jobs to do and that is the reason I have left out all E-Mail address'
Peace,
ANDEE
After installing new ties along the W/B track from Lindenwold to Woodcrest, PATCO workers noticed that the concrete ties were cracking. It turned that the whole batch of 58,000 new ties was defective and will have to be sent back to the manufacturer. Not only that, the ties that have been laid b/t Lindenwold and Woodcrest will all have to be pulled out and replaced w/ new ties, negating 4 weeks of work that have gone into the tie replacement programme. As on now, the non-installed defective have been sent back to the manufacturer.
Ah well, serves em right for using concrete ties.
Why don't you like concrete ties? The strength of concrete ties is about the same as wood ties. But concrete ties last around 50 years while wood ties last about 20-30 years. I think concrete ties on ballast is the best trackbed combo.
Personally, I'm not a fan of concrete ties as they seem (and this is an observation only, I don't have any scientific evidence to back this up) to give a rougher, choppier ride than wooden ties.
-Robert King
What planet are you living on? Ever ride a SEPTA R8/7/2? At various points they transfer from the wooden tied local track to the concrete tied express track its like going from a washboard road to a smooth iceskating rink.
No. But subway trains on the TTC ride much more harshly on the few stretches where there are concrete ties instead of wooeden ties. I am also not the only person here to notice this either.
-Robert King
When was the last time the wood-tied local track was tamped
and surfaced? Chances are the concrete ties are recent and
with that came a lot of ballast work. Concrete ties provide
a stiffer track modulus. They are wonderful when the ballast
condition is firm and well-maintained. Much less forgiving than
wood of less-than-perfect roadbed conditions. Concrete ties
provide nearly perfect gauge restraint but when they fail, the
failure is total. Wood ties degrade gradually. Plus, concrete
ties are just plain ugly!
P.S. To Robert King: Are you sure those are concrete ties in
ballast or is it direct fixation?
Does anyone have any references? I'm teaching a very basic materials science course this fall and this would be a nifty topic to explore.
Mark
I found this on the web: www.rta.org/pdf/sec1a.PDF. It seems somewhat interesting.
What is the course you are going to teach? I'm going to take a Strength of Materials course and a Prestressed Concrete course next spring. But these are Civil Engineering courses and not Material Science.
My course isn't nearly so advanced. I'n an adjunct professor at Temple University and I'm teaching a chemistry course for non-majors. This fall I'm going to try doing it as a materials science using a course developed by a friend of mine. I try to weave subways into my lessons whenever I can. I once started putting together a lesson on the chemistry of waterborne asbestos and the Redbird reefs, but I haven't finished it.
Mark
These concrete ties are in ballast on some of the outdoor sections of the Yonge University Spadina line. Direct fixation is only used in subway tunnels, on a couple of bridges and the 'elevated' section between Yorkdale and just south of Wilson as well as the Scarborough RT. All of the other outdoor track is traditional ballast and wood ties as are a few sections in tunnels where there are switches etc.
-Robert King
Direct fixation was very fashionable in the 1970s and early 80s.
It is very rough and loud. Tbe best track is what NYCT calls
"Type 1", i.e. wood ties in ballast. Unfortunately most of it
is being replaced.
>>Personally, I'm not a fan of concrete ties as they seem (and this is an observation only, I don't have any scientific evidence to back this up) to give a rougher, choppier ride than wooden ties.<<
About two years ago, I was riding on the rear vestibule with a couple of other LIRR passengers with the old 2900 series diesel (ex-MU) cars. There is a short stretch on the Port Jeff line east of New Hyde Park with concrete ties. When we rode from wood to concrete ties, I noticed the wheel noise was quiter and when went back to wood, it was slightly noisier.
The LIRR from Jamaica to Harold interlocking has concrete ties on all four tracks. The ride is much better than with the older wooden ties. It's like those old worn M-1's ride like Amfleet cars and that's saying a lot ! Perhaps a bad ride with concrete ties is the result of poor roadbed ballasting.
Bill "Newkirk"
MARTA had a similar problem. The company that made the ties didn't cast the concrete properly and the concrete was starting to crumble after only 20 years instead of the expected 50 years. Unforunately, the company went out of business so MARTA couldn't sue them for replacing the ties. It took about 1.5 years to replace all the bad ties.
Looks like someone screwed up their engineerring, or Q/C
Is the tie company going to eat the cost of replacement, too, in addition to replacing the junk ties?
A concrete tie cracking occasionally isn't bad, but when it's a systemic thing, you've got a BIG problem.
Bet either the concrete was bad or they goofed the prestress....
I just heard it from a PATCO Engineer. It seemed to be a systematic cracking problem. Due to the cash strapedness of PATCO I am assuming that they will make the tie maker cover the cost of replacement, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 ties.
This Saturday I will take my final rides on the Redbirds. I first rode them, at age seven,in 1972. Back then of course they were painted blue and white to commemorate the 1964/65 World's Fair. Though I've always hated their gray plastic seats I will miss them for they are the last cars on the system older than I am. So on the eve of my final trips I will drink a toast; long live the Redbirds! May they forever ride on in our memories.
E_DOG
Amen brother. =)
The gray plastic seats are the most comfortable ones in the system. Enjoy them while you can.
I took my farewell-to-the-Redbirds-on-the-2 trip this afternoon, riding from E180 to Flatbush and back up to 59th. (I was at the railfan window most of the time, naturally, so I didn't get much use out of the comfortable seats.)
There were at least two Redbird trains in service on the 2 today, and probably no more. Mine was led (Brooklyn end) by 9192; the other one, which we met at Clark, was led (also Brooklyn end) by 9165.
We were immediately behind another 2 all the way down. (Due to a GO in the Bronx, the R-142 train in front was held at E180 to connect with a 5 shuttle.) Nevertheless, both trains made all local stops all the way. Even I concede in this case that one of them could have gone express without inconveniencing anyone, but erring on the side of too much local service is better than erring on the side of too much express service, so I won't complain. At least our C/R announced at each stop that we were making all stops; the train in front of us was presumably declaring itself an express at each local stop.
For those planning farewell Redbird rides, allow me to opine that the 7's Redbirds are overrated. The mainline R-33's on the 5 (and 2, barely) are in much better condition. If possible, catch them on the 2 while they're still there, since Redbirds are already an endangered species on the West Side.
One question about the Bronx GO (which had SB trains running express from E180 to Jackson and split 5 service): SB through 2's were using the middle track at E180 and Dyre shuttles were using the SB local track. Wouldn't it have been less disruptive to put 5's on the middle track? They wouldn't have had to switch twice to get to the NB track and they wouldn't even interfere with SB 2's.
Yes and no. Yes because being on the middle track gives easy access for pax bound for Dyre. No because of all the switching involved. I believe the shuttle leaves after the NB 2 leaves the station. Remember the heated "All 2 and Nereid Ave <5> express while the Dyre 5 make local stops in the Bx" debate that was turned down a few years ago.
There's also the confusion issue. Shuttles usually turn around on the middle track; except for the 1's to Chambers, I don't think I've ever seen trains reverse direction on a side track while through service continued in the middle. A lot of people thought they were getting onto a SB 5 when it was actually a NB 5. Fortunately, there was a platform conductor shouting into a megaphone, and, for a change, people were listening.
The way things were done, the 5 conflicted with 2's in both directions (at the same time, so it was often impossible to keep the 5 waiting until it wouldn't delay anyone) leaving the station. If the 5 had used the middle track, it would have conflicted only with NB 2's. SB 2's would have been unaffected if they were sent down that revenue track in the yard (I forget what it's called, but we discussed this here a few months ago and it's apparently regularly used in the morning rush to accomplish precisely this).
As for the 2/5 debate, I wasn't living in the city at the time so I didn't pay close attention. Why didn't it go through? Doesn't the White Plains branch have more passengers than the Dyre branch? I assume most of them are going to Manhattan, at least in rush hours. So wouldn't it make sense to give the majority the direct express service? The track configuration makes it even more of a good idea. The only downside I can see (aside from the inevitable complaints from the Dyre crowd) is the 50% reduction in local service which might have caused overcrowding on the Dyre 5 locals.
As for the 2/5 debate, it was the politicians from the Dyre Ave line(Pelham Parkway area) that stop this service change. There was even some maps printed and in subway cars with these changes. It was to alleviate less switching and therefore delays around the E.180St area.
Ah, politics as usual. Never mind that the change may be a net benefit when considered systemwide and that the loss suffered by the minority is small (either sit for a few extra minutes or walk across the platform at E180). Anyone going from Dyre to the West Side wouldn't even have been affected; they would have simply transferred at E180 rather than 149-3 or 149-GC.
I was on 6326 this morning on the 2, and the a/c seemed to be confused: the #2 end was hot and muggy but the #1 end was comfortably cool. Guess where I stood.
Then I caught 6829 on the 5. It had the same out-of-date 2 strip maps that all 2's have but it made up-to-date 5 announcements at 59th. (For some reason, the strip map lights were on at all stops from Park Place to 72nd, at Jackson, and from Intervale to E. Tremont. That's it. But the announcements were keeping up just fine.) Do the very same trains have 11-month-old announcements for the 2 but current announcements for the 5?
Were you on an express 5? The strip map, based on your description, was working. The only problem was that it had #2 stops instead of #5 stops. It seems to me that you were on an express train in the Bronx, so it skipped those stations.
Actually, 6826-6830 is a 2 line-assigned R142...as to why it was on the 5 is beyond me...the other day, I saw 6356-6360 coupled with 6631-6635...in the Bronx...as to why THAT happened is really a mystery...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
You're suggesting that, if the 2 strip map had been replaced with a 5 strip map, all would have been fine? I don't think so. This was at about 10:30 in the morning on a northbound 5, and there's certainly no northbound express service in the Bronx then. Furthermore, due to a GO that had just started, all northbound 5's from Manhattan were terminating at 149-GC on the upper level.
But let me think this out. From Franklin to Park Place on the 2 there are 12 stops, inclusive. From Franklin to 59th on the 5 there are only 11 (I only rode from 42nd to 59th). If the two Flatbushes are aligned the same, this doesn't work.
Wait, I take it back. If Park Place lines up with 59th (and the two Flatbushes don't line up), then all works out if this train was erroneously programmed as a Bronx express to Dyre.
Maybe it was actually a 2 train that was rerouted to the East Side for whatever reason, so the T/O reprogrammed it on the fly as a random 5 train so it would make the right announcements.
But I'm still confused about how the same train that, when it's running as a 2, doesn't know that the W stops at 42nd all of a sudden knows that the W stops at 59th on the 5.
How the 5 can have correct announcements while the 2 and 6 do not is beyond me. My guess is that when the trains first came, all they had were the 2 and 6, and the 5 was added later, so those were updated.
How much trouble could it have been to replace the 2 (and 6, if the 6 is even programmed on the R-142's) data while adding the 5 data?
The 6 line is programmed into the R142s.(BOMBardier)
What I dislike about the strip maps is the way that the light for each station goes out when the train arrives at that station. In other words, the illuminated lights show the stations where the train is yet to go. This arrangment seems counter-intuitive to me; it would make more sense to illuminate each station once the train arrives there, the opposite of the current arrangement.
I disagree. The illuminated lights show (in theory) exactly which stops the train will be making. Will it be running express or local in the Bronx? Will it be going to Dyre or Nereid? Will it be skipping any other stops? OTOH, it makes no difference to the rider (unless said rider happens to be a railfan) if the train originated at Bowling Green, Flatbush, Utica, or New Lots, nor if it happened to skip any stops already.
>>>...and the a/c seemed to be confused: the #2 end was hot and muggy but the #1 end was comfortably cool.<<<
Was it raining in the middle of the car. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
No, silly. This was an R-142, not an R-40.
I thought I heard a clap of thunder, but it was actually somebody getting up from one of the flip-up seats.
R142s have two computer controlled HVAC units, one in each end and it is not unusual at this time for one of two to fail. Better to be in the middle so your hearing is not drowned-out by the noise. As for announcements, software is still vendor-controlled and the best offense is for the public to complain to TA so vendors can be put 'on notice.' What these trainsets should have had is a universal display/announcement system allowing any 'number world' R142 to run any compatible line...rollsigns do make life so much easier. CI Peter
Approved Oct 6, 1970
Here's a patent for a refit of the R40. Instead of using "panograph" gates, it uses a cable system that is held under tension with internal cables and pulleys. Looking at the diagram, it allows the R40 to retain its Lowry designed slant with three thin cables. The cable retracts into the car body when not in use. Looks better than the kid with braces look.
The firm that wanted to sell this idea to the NYCTA was The Budd Company.
wow. that wouldve been a great implementation. plus the front and back ends of the train would have it retracted and it'd be like the old times. simply wow. i hate all that junk on the front of the slants. mta missed one hell of an idea.
Are ther any R26,s still in service?
At last count, ten were still running.
Would anyone have the car numbers for the consist used on the Farewell to the R-17 (Redbird) Fantrip on November 8,1987. I only know that it was at least a six car train and that 6614 was on one end and 6688 was on the other. Thanks in advance?
Larry,RedbirdR33
SMS, the short line railroad that serves the Pureland Industrial Complex in Bridgeton and the Valero Refinery in Paulsboro, both in South Jersey, aquired an additional office building at its Pureland location. The office was previously part of the now closed Victoria Station restaurant in Cherry Hill, and was not wanted by the new owner of the paoperty, a car dealer.
New SMS Pureland office (photo by Bill Kamps)
Hi Bill Newkirk,
Just wanted to let you know I wish I could have been on that last "Q" interval with you. It must have been great.
Bob
>>Hi Bill Newkirk,
Just wanted to let you know I wish I could have been on that last "Q" interval with you. It must have been great.<<
It was great, and also bittersweet. I arrived at Bridge-Jay fare controls and observed some veteran employees trading old stories about the Myrtle Ave line with the station agent. Then about midnight, someone called out for the last train to leave.
I boarded the consist with what appeared to be 99% railfans. If there was a regular passenger, it may have been one or two. When we left Bridge-Jay, it sank in this was the last time I would be doing this. The crowd was orderly, yet festive, unusual for that time at night. The Myrtle Ave line was the last of the old Brooklyn "els" and a piece of history was ending that night.
Along the route, people were looking out of apartment windows as if they knew that this was the last run. The Myrtle Ave "el" figures in my parents lives too. I remember an old faded snapshot of my father sitting at a square table playing cards with his friends outdoors with the "el" ever present. In the distance, the Lexington Ave "el" was branching off the line. We can't find that photo, shame. When I was a younger railfan, my father would weave tales of his younger years, the "el" and the equipment that ran on it. My parents younger years was centered around that neighborhood and the "el" that ran through it.
Anyway, by the time we reached Metropolitan Ave, the lights were out, since the bulbs were stolen as souvenirs. It was a long ride home to Newkirk Ave after midnight. I'm not sure what time I arrived home, possibly around 1:30 AM or so. My father was waiting up to see if I returned okay. I did and went to sleep that night knowing I was a part of history in Brooklyn. Now I know how older railfans felt when they rode the last runs on the Third Ave and other old elevated line. Ah, sweet memories !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the great story. I'll be in touch again soon.
Sincerely,
Bob
Bill, I know how you felt, I felt the same way about the Last Lex. I guess that I realized that while I would still have train service right past my house, I would never see the gate cars going past my window during rush hour anymore.
I did get a nice souvenir, but not until about a week after the Last Lex.
Hi Bill,
I use to live on Adelphi St. between Park and Myrtle. My home station was Vanderbilt Ave. I rode the "Q" cars all my life especially when I attended high school at Eastern District in Williamsburg. In the afternoons I would ride out to Metropolitan Ave. and watch the drill crews the adds to make six car trains for the rush hour. It was great and I made a lot of friends, both Motormen and Conductors. I had already been bitten by the train bug because me father was an employee of the LIRR and I would go with him quite often to VD Yard in Brooklyn. Anyhow, the "Q" cars were my favorites. I would have given my eye teeth to be on the last revenue trip and also both the post abandonment excursions but I was incapacitated with a gunshot wound I received in Viet Nam about six months earlier. I started working for the TA in August of 1970 and became a C/R in March of 1973. I was rewarded with the assignment of being the last Conductor to operate of the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue "L" on April 28th, 1973. The consist was the museum Low-V cars including their kerosene deck lamps. I was a nervous wreck, afraid something would go wrong that I wouldn't be able to handle. But the Road Car Inspector assigned to the excursion was Johnny Hornack(I hope I spelled his name correctly)and he told me not to worry and that if there were any problems he'd take care of it. The trip operated without incident much to my relief. As we left the 3rd Ave. "L" for the last time, I too rode into the history books. And you are right; it was a bittersweet moment.
Sincerely,
Bob
>>I use to live on Adelphi St. between Park and Myrtle<<
Funny you should mention that. As an infant, my folks lived on Skillman St bewteen Park and Myrtle. Maybe in those formative years, I heard the sounds of the gate cars on the Myrtle Ave Line thus turning me into a fifty year old railfan !
Thanks for sharing your story abouth the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave "el".
Bill "Newkirk"
Bob: So you were the conductor on that fantrip. I was on that one also. I took my first train ride on the el and just had to be there for the farewell.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember riding the World's Fair cars and the R-12/14's on the 3rd Ave El, but was there overlap, i.e. were they running WF's and 12-14's at the same time?
I know when the line went downtown they used MUDC's, but what other cars did they use after the line was shortened to 149 St.- Gun Hill Rd.?
Immediately fter the line was shortened the great majority of the MUDC fleet was scrapped/burned [sad sight at the rear of the book "By The El"] All of the Q's remained [had been used in rush hour express service only previously due to weight restrictions] and some MUDC's of the 1909-11 group remained, only motor cars and only cars that were converted to Low-V. As the last of the old IRT cars were replaced on Pelham a grroup of 4700 and 5600 series Steinways went to 3rd ave, about Nov-Dec 56 I think and ran in 6 motor sets. Can't swear when they went to the next format....1960 perhaps. 5 car Steinway-World's Fair-Low V trailer mixes were run until Nov. 69. alwayshad a Low-V trailer in the middle, 2 motor cars flanking it, World's Fair cars as much as possible but Steinways sometimes mixed in. I would expect that not al the R12's arrived at the same time so for a time thre would be mixes. I didn't work there then, was chasing R1-9 on the B div. and lived in Broolyn. Unfortunately I didn't even know they had gotten rid of thelast old IRT cars until a few months to late. Shame on me, who loved the old IRT.
Tony; The first R-12's arrived on the 3 Avenue El on about August 30,1969 and the old cars made there last run during the am rush on November 3,1969. (N) 5641-5670-5353-5636-5676 (S). So the overlap lasted only a few months. AT first only the GE R-12's ran here (5753-5802). A few R-14s were assigned to the lines somewhat later.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does anyone have a good sound file converter software? I need it so I can convert some Chinese pronunciations of Hong Kong rail station names along with the line description file I'm working on for that.
If anyone can point me in the right direction that would be very nice of you all.
-J!
Is it possible to come up with a definitive list of what lines the R-16's ran on over the course of their years of service? Or is it safe to say that they ran on EVERY BMT-IND line at one time or another?
If that's the case, then what lines did they NEVER run on?
The R-16s were originally assigned to the Eastern Division. 6300-6349 were sent over to the A around 1956, where they remained until 1959. In August of 1966, 32 cars were loaned to Jamaica Yard and ran on the GG until February of 1967, when they returned to the BMT. After Chrystie St., they spent time on the EE and GG lines. By the late 70s, the R-16s had spent time on just about every IND/BMT route. Not sure if they ever ran on the CC or D. The 6400s were mothballed at some point because of their unreliability, but were pressed back into service when the R-46 truck cracking problem surfaced. Eventually, the R-16s came full circle and returned to the Eastern Division, where they spent their final days before being put out of their misery.
When I was a kid in the 60's, I mostly rode the IRT and the BMT Broadway Line (I lived on 14th Street). I distinctly remember seeing R-16's on BMT locals (The RR, TT, and QT in those days) intermixed with R-27's and R-30's. I used to like to walk from car to car and remember that in any one of those trains, some cars had seats that faced forward (the R-16's).
Did you see any number markings on the R-16 route signs? They didn't receive new curtains with letter markings until Chrystie St.
BTW, the TT didn't run via Broadway except for one time during a flooded tunnel. It normally went to Chambers St. via the Nassau loop.
The R-16s had number markings on their route signs until Chrystie St. opened in 1967, when they got new route signs with letter markings.
Prior to Chrystie St., they never operated on the BMT southern division (well, never say never ... I recall once when I was in high school in the early 60s seeing a chartered trian of R-16s full of school kids pull through DeKalb Ave. without stopping).
Immediately after Chrystie St. opened, they mixed with R-27/30s on the QJ, RJ and RR, with their new route signs.
-- Ed Sachs
This must've been post 1967. The R16 never ran on the Broadway BMT prior to Chrystie. The TT was a Nassau St, not Broadway service. The T was a Broadway express route via the bridge. Prior to Chrystie, the QT and RR trains were almost exclusively R27/30/32. Afterwards, the RR & EE ran practically everything on wheels.
The R16's, after November 1967, migrated from the Eastern Division to the Southern Divison RR service via the RJ service.
And shortly thereafter they appeared on the E/F/GG/EE as well.
In my first days of numbers-taking, that being early 1969, quite a few R16 were spotted on the "RR". 84 of these were first sighted in "RR" service.
By LATE 1969, they were over on the "EE" and "GG".
wayne
Here's an unusual example. Note the #2 marking.
And one with a grafted RR sign:
Didn't they have destination signs for Astoria and 95th Street ? All I remember seeing in that era was a cardstock RR sign slapped on the front DESTINATION window (even when they ran on the RJ) and a cardstock 95 STREET on the side south sign.
Eventually, the R-16s came full circle and returned to the Eastern Division, where they spent their final days before being put out of their misery.
lol......"put out of their misery" being the key words.....
The R-16s were at one end of the spectrum. "Being put out of their misery" is an appropriate moniker for them. Now at the other end you have the Triplexes, which were still running beautifully when they were needlessly and prematurely sent to slaughter.
I'm actually glad that folks here fondly remember those turds - as a Bronx boy who worked the IND, I remember those as "QB's" ... those horrid pokes that my R1/9 would get STUCK behind until we got past DeKalb and they went THEIR way up Broadway instead of holding up 6th Avenue. And RR's of course too which fortunately my trains didn't meet. But I sure remember the 16's as trains that would screw up the railroad daily, and LEADERS to a string of reds in their wake that didn't clear. :)
I realize folks are a bit dewey-eyed, but to me they were "stretch IRT cars" and little more than railroad-kill ...
Were trains really referred to as dogs back then if they tended to buck or otherwise foul things up? Did you ver have to deal with a bucking train?
OH YEAH ... and yes, every trainride it seemed was the "ride the bull" ... you had dead motors and brakes that didn't fully release (the famous R-10 *BANG!!!* sound file as but one example) so you'd yank power, slack action would catch a dead car, BANG! And there'd be more than one BO car in every consist somewhere ... same on the braking as cars with brakes cut out would use the car in front of it as a moving wall to slow it down. Add a smorgastrain with different rigging, different motor characteristics and timing and it could be a wild ride.
Then there were the dogs that would lay down on the track. Changing ends to go back and "rescue" a train that couldn't climb a grade, 4 car trains with shoes off that would "gap" that needed an add, a push and a cut ... life in the TA was once "anything can happen day" ... made it interesting and assured overtime. :)
Were they ever used on KK or K service through the Chrystie Street connection? This may be a possibility.
I don't think they did any time on the CC, C, or D.
How about HH Rockaway Shuttle service?
What about Q, QB, or QT service prior to Chrystie Street? They were still pretty much Eastern Division when that service was running.
And I don't think they clocked any time on the T or TT West End.
No to all of the above.
NY1 has a short article on the TA's war against pigeons.
http://www.ny1.com/NewsBeats/transit.html
They've done Bay 50th. The one I remembern as needing pigeon removal is City Hall on the Broadway BMT.
Pigeon droppings are corrosive, and shorten the useful life of things like the cables on the Brooklyn Bridge.
Am I missing something? Why is this a fifty-thousand dollar device? Are we talking about spending $50,000 per station? I'm sure that farmers don't spend anywhere near that amount on electric fences to contain their livestock, and I assume this scheme is similar to an electric fence. I smell a scam.
Or a rat.:-)
7626-30 and 7651-55 are out road testing for the 6, and not for the 4. It was thought that 7651-55 would be the start of the 4 Line Fleet, but this may have changed. There's still the matter of Cars 7641-45 and 7656-60. Where these will go is anyone's guess!
-Stef
Hey Stef, Yesterday i saw #7661-#7665 on the middle track @ Pelham Parkway Station #2 line.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Thanks for the report. These cars are going to the 4, the question is when?
-Stef
This time the three letters railroad officials fear most, FRA, revisited.
I had another column all put to bed and ready to transmit across the Hot Times on the High Iron network. However, the events of the past couple of days has forced me to save that column for another day and pretty much demanded I write about this topic instead.
For those of you who are fairly new to Hot Times, a couple of years ago I did a two part piece about what happens when the Federal Railroad Administration visits a railroad property. It generally is not pretty and from there tends to get very ugly, very fast at times. If this story doesn’t put the fear of God and the FRA into some railroad officials, nothing will. This story is one, actually two of those kind of days.
Our saga begins on June 3rd at Glenn Yard. Unbeknownst to me as I walked into the door this day, the FRA has paid another visit to the CNIC to inspect the operations. I was called for 1220 hours for train 322, my new assignment. As I walked into the yard office the Conductor on one of the Glenn road switcher assignments greeted me. He asked what job I was working and I told him 322. He laughed and said,
"Better get a Snickers bar, you aren’t going anywhere for a while."
When I inquired as to why he told me the FRA was here today and just starting to inspect our train. He also mentioned they had already bad ordered the power we were scheduled to have today to pull this train around. The Yardmaster said we had 145 cars today, but more than likely we would have less by the time the Feds were finished with it. Not a good way to begin the day. As I would later learn, the G-men were to be all over the CNIC system for the entire week. We all know what this means, trains will be delayed
About 1400 or so it was decided Markham instead of waiting for the inspection of our train to be completed, they would cab us to and get a train out of there. So off we go via the Trainmaster’s truck to Markham. After arriving there and waiting for awhile, we finally get our train doubled up and paperwork that was correct. (This took two tries). We departed Markham at 1720 and had a somewhat uneventful trip to Champaign. Uneventful if you discount my trailing unit, the IC 6051 kept running hot and setting off the alarm bells.
We now move ahead to Tuesday the 4th. We were ordered out of Champaign at 1400 hours for our usual train 325. At 1400 we are still at the hotel awaiting transportation to the yard. I tried to call the Yardmaster but kept getting his voice mail. I finally was able to contact the Caller to find out where our ride was. She was not happy, as the cab company had just called her informing her they had no drivers available to come and pick us up. This is a new cab company at Champaign for us and they have been unimpressive at best thus far. They seem to have problems finding drivers. I guess that is what happens when you pay your help $7 per hour for twelve hours a day.
The Champaign Yardmaster finally arrived about 1440 or so to pick up both us and the crew for 333 who was ordered for 1430. Upon our arrival at the yard we were appraised of the following scenario; 333’s train was on the main track at Champaign. An empty grain train to head out to The Anderson’s elevator west of Champaign on Norfolk Southern’s Mansfield District was parked on the siding. Our train was on the outbound runner pulled up to Leverett Jct. The Gilman-Champaign Local (train 553) was on track two in C Yard right along side of our train. And the FRA was in town. Today is already far worse than yesterday.
For some reason, they seemed to be in a big hurry to get us out of the nice, comfortable,
air conditioned yard office and onto our train. Don’t know why as we are likely not going anywhere anytime soon. My Conductor, Andy Paolone and James Mingo, the Conductor of 333 were trying for over thirty-five minutes to reach the Desk Two Dispatcher to let him know about our work en route. Most of the time train 325 does no work between Champaign and Markham, but today would be different. And based on what they had set up for both 333 and us it would be another real feat of railroading that is, if things happened to go according to plan. Of course we are fully aware of the fact that plan A never has a chance anyway.
Neither Conductor could get through for this entire time. Each of them were trying on separate telephones with the hope that he would answer one of them and then the phone could be handed over to the other to talk to the Dispatcher as well. Both phones were on speaker with one ringing constantly and the other giving the message to "Please continue to hold your call will be answered in the order it was received."
Here is what was planned; a Champaign road crew would take the train off the siding and head out to Anderson’s. 553 would depart Leverett Jct. heading north first. We would be leaving ahead of 333 as we had pick ups to make at Gilman and Otto. 333 would follow us, as he had to make a set out at Gilman onto the track we cleared out. His set out was a bit of a pain though, as he had to do it from the rear of his train. This means he would hang onto his entire train and set out the very rear block of cars. He would also set out at Chebanse.
Now let us see exactly how well the ambitions of this plan fell into place. First off, the NS won’t take the crew to go out to Anderson’s until 1730 as they claimed a train was out there already. The crew on the empty grain train would go dead on the hours at 1830. Can you say suicide mission? When all was said and done with that, they didn’t make the attempt and were tied up instead.
The FRA was presently inspecting 553 along with the Car Inspectors. Our train while worked was not inspected yet. Undaunted, they decided to haul us up to the head end of our train anyway, along with 333’s crew. Now being that it is currently some 92°, I see no real reason we need to be sitting in the cab of this oven, I mean, locomotive right now. The powers that be at CN do not believe we need air conditioning for our locomotives, but do for offices and company cars and trucks. I see no logic to their "no A/C for crews" policy unless they believe we need to sweat off some weight. I guess in my own case this would really be "Sweating it off with the oldies." But what do I know? According to one of our Trainmasters, I should be thankful that I even have a job. Of course he said this while sitting in his air-conditioned office just before scurrying out to his air-conditioned company truck that he keeps running at all times when it is hot outside.
When the G-Men were done with 553, they had to set out seven bad orders. They did so and finally departed at 1740. At 1800 we still did not even begin an air test yet alone start dealing with bad orders. Whenever the time comes that we get finished with the setting out of bad orders, performing the air test and then departing, we will have the southbound fleet to meet. This would include Amtrak 391 and 59, CNIC trains 322, 194, 397, 281 and 326 and also northbound Amtrak 392. And then there is the possibility of a Norfolk Southern or two in the mix. There is also an extra 322 at Rantoul, although I don’t believe he is heading this way yet. The block is lined for a southbound movement out of Rantoul though as I can see the northward block signal at 121.8 is displaying a restricted proceed (red) aspect. It is very likely Desk Two Dispatcher Jimmy Morrisey has lined 391 up to come south and 322 gets to sit and wait some more. He has already been waiting quite a while as it is. That’s okay though, they are good until 2200. Should I take the opportunity to again comment about the efficiencies of single track? Nah, it goes unsaid.
A storm is brewing on the horizon and we are keeping close tabs on its approach. Should we have to wind up setting out bad orders, Andy isn’t going to want to get wet. You know I certainly don’t want to. The only thing more pathetic than the sight of a wet puppy is a wet Engineer. Conductors and Brakemen were born to get wet. (I suppose I’ll from all kinds of them now).
A southbound grain train, 870 passed us here at Leverett at 1755. He has to re-crew at the yard office and his engines also need to be refueled as well. This means they have to cut off the train, cross over into the yard and put the engines on the pocket track where engines are fueled and sanded here at Champaign.
You know I did make a comment to Andy when we first boarded our power that, knowing our luck, we would probably be here to see 391 go south. Gee, how prophetic it appears I am.
At this moment, it is 1820 hours and there is more to come.
Amtrak 391 came to a stop at Leverett Jct. at 1833. 870 is still getting their engines refueled. About 1838 they tied back onto their train. He will still have to pump up the air on his one-hundred or so cars, get a set and release of the brakes to positively ascertain brake pipe continuity with FRED on the tail end and depart.
Amtrak 392 is due to depart the Champaign Amtrak station at 1855. However, with the grain train and 391 to move first, it is very likely 392 will be sitting at Tolono, the first siding south of Champaign and waiting for this little parade.
At 1850 the rains make their appearance along with lots of thunder and quite the lightning show. "Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain….."
1855 hours; 391 is talked by the stop signal at Leverett Jct. and pulls up behind the stopped 870.
I hear Desk 2 tell 392 they will head in behind a stopped train in the siding at Tolono, meet 870 and 391 there, back out of the siding behind them and then head north. This means 391 will follow 870 all the way to Tuscola, the next siding south of Tolono. 870 will head in at Tuscola and 391 will run around him there; so much for any on-time performance money from Amtrak today.
870 gets rolling about 1905. The extra 322 train (actually M32260-04) has been moved up from Rantoul to Leverett Jct. and gets talked by the stop signal there behind the parade. The Engineer on this train, being referred to as "first 322" reports his end of train telemetry has failed and will either need a new battery or to be replaced altogether.
391 performs his station work at the Champaign Amtrak station departing there at 1917, only fifty-two minutes behind schedule. In the meantime, one of the Car Inspectors is torn away from our train to take care of the telemetry troubles on first 322.
Down the road 870 and 391 meet train 335 and Amtrak 392 patiently waiting behind him in the siding at Tolono. Normally 391 and 392 swap train crews, but not engine crews where they meet and today as per the plan, it is at Tolono. Only they normally perform this chore about an hour earlier. 392 is talked out of Tolono behind 391 and heads north completing his station work. When he departs the depot he is talked by the stop signal at Champaign and into the siding on top of the now crewless Anderson’s grain train. After first 322 goes south 392 is backed out of the siding and comes north. He passed us at 2026.
1944 hours; one of the Car Inspectors calls me and we arm up FRED and perform the emergency dump test. All is successfully accomplished. The first thing to go right this day.
2025 hours; the Yardmaster calls the Car Inspectors wanting to know how many bad ordered cars have been repaired thus far. The answer is "about half." I contacted one of the Car Inspectors to see how many bad orders there were total and he tells me about thirty-two or thirty-four. The Yardmaster then tells them they have about twenty to twenty-five more minutes of time to work on them before they must stop and then have us set out the rest.
The regular 322 (M32261-04) meets us at 2100 pulls down to the office and changes crews there.
2120 hours; the lead job working at Champaign calls and informs us they will assist us in kicking out the remaining bad ones. I told them we still have the Car Department’s blue flags (which protect them in this track and prohibit my moving of the train) in place and they will need to be removed first.
2155 hours; Car Inspector Jimmy "Huck" Farris shows up to remove the blue flag from the rail, the blue flag from the control stand on the IC 1016, my lead unit and also the "effective locking device" from the switch in front of us. This will allow young Andy to operate this switch for our movement and permit us to begin the chore of kicking the bad orders out of our train. This process began at 2225 and was completed at 2355.
At 0022 hours we get our air test, including getting a new end of train telemetry device, going through the procedure to arm and emergency dump test it again. We now have to get all new paper work, as our train is now considerably smaller in size. We started out with 43 loads, 85 empties, 8,438 tons and 7,643 feet of train. We finally departed with 29 loads, 57 empties, 5,800 tons and 5,191 feet of train. In addition to the bad orders, we also kicked out a bunch of good cars in the interest of saving some time.
We received our new paperwork and finally departed Champaign at 0032 hours. As we were departing, the Desk 2 Dispatcher called and informed us a relief crew would meet us at Rantoul and we would swap out there and take his cab back to Glenn Yard and tie up. We met them about 0100, exchanged our pleasantries and information about the train and motive power, loaded up into the cab and took the long ride home. Andy commented about this being a "train from hell" and we laughed.
I should make a mention that this was our "getaway" day or our Friday. I am scheduled with a rest day of Wednesdays on this job. It never fails; things have a way of going straight to hell on getaway day and we wind up starting later, like today, and then wind up working twelve hours or more. I believe the railroad gods derive some sort of perverse pleasure from this.
We finally made it back to Glenn Yard and tied up at 0445 this morning. While talking to Yardmaster Kevin O’Connor upon our arrival there, he informed us that the re-crew of our train was dead on the rail at Gilman. Apparently both engines died and they could not get them to restart. When Andy heard this news he said, "Gee, I guess it really was a train from hell." The railroad gods were probably roaring with laughter over that remark.
The story you have just read is true. Despite my creative nature and abilities, there is no way I could ever be creative enough to fabricate something of this nature. None of the names have been changed, as nobody was innocent.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
All I can say is wow....
A lot of railroads today are JUST like the transit authority in the 70's. ('graf included, no waiting) ... I *love* Tuch's stories because they are so oh familiar. :)
Freight railroading !@#$%^&*()+ trust me. And where I worked [BN and MRL] there was no holding a regaular run on a road pool; you were on call most of your life if you weren't on duty, and worked every shift in a time frame...could go from midnights to PM's to Am's and back in any order. The money was great but it wasn't living only if you loved trains [and the paycheck, that keeps a lot of people going]
It was a fun day on the IRT , A C/R who will go nameless was arrested today at 242 V.C for sexual misconduct. It seems to be that he was flashing or should we say Mooning people at the 181st and Dyckman st stations .Is this really a crime ?
Disruption of service.
Out of uniform!
Wait, did he have his vest on??
Did he have his vest on??
And probably not much else!
Nah, gotta have those safety glasses!
Do they make glasses those large? And do they also make a false mustache to hang from the bottom of them? :)
>>>>>>Is this really a crime?
Yeah, a crime of utter stupidity.
Seriously, it's a simple misdemeanor in which the (soon to be former) C/R will get probation and/or community service.
What is scary is that if was a priest he would still have a job.
... But he would have been moved to a different division.
Yes.
No visable means of support.
Wrong, possession of crack with intent.
With intent to smell?
Sorry, I know I am pushing it - but could not help myself
Hahahahaha ... after all, it is the only politically correct orifice. Everybody's got one.
How about propositioning a kid looking out the railfan window?
Was it a full, 3/4 or 1/2 Moon?
Gotta make the punishment fit da crime....
Not on the Flashing line?
Was the conductor on duty at the time? I could find no official report to cover any such incident.
I am told thay only 22 slant R40's are currently assigned to ENY. Mixed marriage 4426/29 and 4430 to 4449. All the others are now assigned to CI. With only 2 trains of slants running on the L, if you want pix, you had better get them soon........It looks like the R42's are now undergoing a re-flooring program. Thus far I observed 4854/55 and 4918/19 with the new black floors.........Next week we'll know what the OPTO status will be for the M line for the fall pick. A new start to pick date was published today: 6/17/02........Rumor has it that a just arrived trainset of R143's are being prepared for dedicated M service. Naturally with OPTO M service on the horizon for September, R143's will be seen on Ninth Ave/Bay Pkwy. M service as well come September.
>>It looks like the R42's are now undergoing a re-flooring program. Thus far I observed 4854/55 and 4918/19 with the new black floors<<
I would figure the R-68's would get the new floors since they are bubbling up and being patched. The R-68's will be around longer than the R-42's. Maybe these floors were a hazard and had to be done ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Train Dude informed us recently that the reflooring of the 68's has been put off for a year or so.
That is too bad. Some of my best railfanning was on the L coming out of Manhattan in a Slant. Blowing out those red lights as we went by on our way under the East River ... of what a ride !
Mr rt__:^)
Well, this afternoon around 12:45pm, I boarded a Manhattan bound L slantR40 at Livonia. Lead car was 4447. Had the railfan window from Myrtle to 6Av. Saw another slantR40 at Dekalb Ave heading towards Canarsie. Poor girl was sandwiched between THREE R143s. One in front of her and two directly behind her. After a lunch date, I caught another slant R40 on the Q which I took from Times Square to Dekalb. I wish I had my camera. I guess its time to start taking pics of the last SlantR40s on the L and the last Redbirds on the 2.......
I got three of the 2 yesterday -- one exterior at E180 and two interior at Flatbush. I was hoping for another exterior at 59th but too many people got off.
OKAY the W Train has been with the TA Since 7/22/01. The V is only 6 months old. With the MANNY B REOPEN IN 2004. TA will be making huge changes. The changes that possibly may or may not have an affect on V and W. Since the W and V appearance, dislike W and V rumors has been flying around (Gene Russianoff's is one of them). Some us here hate the V and Some of us here hate the W. And I'm not sure if TA has yet paying attention these rumors. Should the V and W stays or one of them has to go or both of them has to go.
Lets Votes
A. Both V and W stays in the system forever.
B. TA should get rid of the W
C. TA should get rid of the V
D. TA should get rid of both V and W.
I choose (A)
I would pick A IF you took out the word "forever." Seeing as how the system is always changing, the V and W are good trains for their respected lines and stops at this point. For example, if the Manny B opens up both sides in 2004 like they are supposed to, it should be B/D on one side N/Q on the other side. Bye Bye W unless it wants to be a local from Astoria to Whitehall, though that service has been done by diamond N in the past.
>>Since the W and V appearance, dislike W and V rumors has been flying around (Gene Russianoff's is one of them).<<
Why should people dislike the (W) ? It's only a temporary thing until the Manny B opens in 2004, then the (B) returns to the West End. Don't some people realize you can't run the (B) down to Coney island because of the Manny B ?
MY vote is "B", because the TA will get rid of the (W) in 2004.
Bill "Newkirk"
>MY vote is "B", because the TA will get rid of the (W) in 2004.
Will Stillwell Avenue reconstruction be finished by then?
Stillwell construction doesn't affect the W. The W is simply a temporary name for the southern half of the B since when the last bridge flip-flop took place, people thought having two B and two D trains was too confusing. My suggestion would be to eliminate the W and leave the V in 2004.
Not now it doesn't. But on 9/8/02, it will. The W will be the only train running to/from Stillwell beginning on 9/8. It will also be the only train in the Montague tunnel during late nights beginning on that date. If the B returns to Brooklyn before Stillwell construction is finished, what will serve the stations between DeKalb Avenue and Canal St? They would either have to restore late-night R service north of 36th Street or have the N or Q go through Montague during late nights if the W is eliminated in 2004.
>>you can't run the (B) down to Coney island because of the Manny B?<<
Well Actually you can if you rerouted B via Broadway line instead change it to W.
>Gene Russianoff's is one of them
Who cares? He likes and blasts almost everything.
And he is the mother-in-law of transit, lots to say about everything, no power and no solutions.
Gene Russianoff is the mother-in-law? The guy himself doesn't even know what he's talking about. Read the "Ad's fo tha V! Daily News Article" You can tell that he's full of sh*t. Chris R16 was right, he's not trasit advocate. He just trying act like one in front of the audience.
Modified (B)
Keep the V and turn the W into an Astoria to Whitehall local.
With B ending at 34th St. you can have a W since you are only running half the length of the B. Run the B and W to Stillwell, where are you going to get the cars to maintain the current headway during rush hour??
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, but it wouldn't take any extra cars if West End service were kept constant, with trains alternating between Broadway and 6th Avenue.
Why not run the B to Bay Parkway and the W to Stillwell? Having both the B and W terminate at Stillwell limits the number of TPH per line, but if the B terminates at Bay Parkway and the W at Stillwell, I would think they could still maintain acceptable headways during rush hours on both lines.
What about the M? - Bay Parkway too?
How 'bout 59st / 4th ave? They could turn at 8th ave middle (Sea Beach Express).
I still say that a Broadway / West End express one-way peak train should run after the "resoration of complete service on the bridge" (It's very hard to type that with a straight face!). It could run like the A to Rock Park.
A but neither of them has to keep their current route and as New Flyer said, not forever.
The W will most likely remain post 2004, but only as an Astoria/Broadway local to augment N service to Ditmars. Whether this is a rush hour or all day service is still unknown.
This is 100% pure unadulterated conjecture. The TA has made no decisions; all options are still open. What you suggest may or may not be the final arrangement; we'll find out in a year or two.
Educated conjecture. Everyone in here already knows no decisions have been made. But I'd bet a few $$$ that what I proposed will eventually be adopted.
A lot of people do think the decision has been made.
I'm not interested in taking you up on your offer, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if a different plan is implemented.
Near the end of the bridge work, they're supposed to have massive public input as to how the service should be. Where the bridge plan didn't need a public hearing because it was temporary, the final plan will definitely need one.
Common sense would suggest all day service. Every other through line in Manhattan below 60th St (with a few exceptions) has at least 12 tph during mid-day.
But of course we don't really know.
I'd agree. With the N/Q running express over the bridge, the R alone would be inadequate for Broadway local stops.
My vote is option A. Just because V causes some inconvience to commuters doesn't mean it should be eliminated. There's always more routing options. The line just needs to be extended to Brooklyn. As for the W, I haven't heard any problems regarding its service. If the 2nd Avenue line is ever built, the MTA would likely need the W. It's a toss up between the W and the Q as to which would serve the uptown part of the new line from 63rd Street to 125th Street.
I like them both. I choose A.
I would like to see the V run to Metropolitan Avenue via the Chrystie connection and the Williamsburg Bridge. I would also like to see the W run as the full-time West End service with the B running to Bay Parkway and supplementing the W on weekdays.
The W as it runs today will be eliminated in 2004. Nobody can complain about it since no other service can be run while the bridge only serves Broadway. The V will also have to remain past 2004. It's routing is what's debatable.
I say the V and W will stay after 2004.Wether the V runs the way it does now is left to be seen.As for the W,when the B returns to West End,terminate the W at Bay Parkway,the B at Stillwell and move the M to Bay Ridge to compliment the R,that short section needs extra service especially if an R gets delayed elsewhere and because of that its not till another 20mins or whatever that the next R is able to make it to 95th st.the M definately needs to be sent to 95th st in 2004.
Good thought! But the only problem is that there aren't enough turning capacity for M. My suggestion is to keep the M at west end and have the W running via N in brooklyn from 36 to stillwell. So that Sea Beach had a local and express service. In addition to that keep W running via bridge running between Astoria and Stillwell. And increase R service.
So in reality, Bay Ridge CAN'T have two lines?
When you look at it, I think your plan makes the most sense. The Manny Bridge would be balanced at last:
- North Manny Bridge: B, D
- South Manny Bridge: N (or W), Q
- York St. Tunnel: F, V
- Montague St. Tunnel: W (or N), R
Now, the question lies with the M...Here is a suggestion...
- West End: B express to Stillwell, M local to Bay Parkway
- B late night shuttle to 36th
- M operates similar to V
- Culver: F express to Stillwell, V local to Kings Highway
- F all times on Culver
- V similar to Q on Brighton
- Brighton: D local to Brighton Beach, Q express to Stillwell
- D serves the rest of the way nights, weekends.
- Q = current diamond Q line's route and schedule
- Sea Beach: N skip-stop to Stillwell, W local to Stillwell
- N all times to Stillwell
- W = Astoria-Whitehall local
- Bay Ridge: R all times.
- No changes.
Stillwell, therefore, will then look like this...
- Broadway: N, Q (Replaced by D late nights, weekends)
- 6th Ave: B, F
It would still balance the bridge during late nights:
- North Manny B: D
- South Manny B: N
- York St. Tunnel: F
- Montague St. Tunnel: R
- Off: B, M, Q, V.
And voila! I think this is a plan that is probably the best, and I think may be the default choice. I dunno...just more rambling and stuff like that.
-J!
Your plan is somewhat related to mines that I've here in this board and in www.nycrail.com back number of months ago b4 subtalk went down. Heres a recap of my 2004 Manny B plan.
SERVICE ON THE NORTH SIDE MANHATTAN BRIDGE:
B Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Nights] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx.
[Nights] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops from 36 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave.
Transfer to N or R at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan.
D Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
SERVICE ON THE SOUTHSIDE MANHATTAN BRIDGE:
N Train: Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th Street/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island (via South Side Manhattan Bridge). Transfer to R for local service in Manhattan. On weekends nights, N makes all local stops in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
*Q Train: Broadway Express (See "Additional Notes:")
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
W Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All stops from 36th St to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via N).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
SERVICE ON THE MONTAGUE STREET TUNNEL:
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Middays] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to 9th Ave, Brooklyn.
[Rush Hours/Evening] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Bay Pkwy, Brooklyn.
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
R Train: Broadway Local (See "Additional Notes:")
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
SERVICE ON THE CULVER LINE:
F Train: 6th Avenue Local
[All Times except Nights] – Express stops in Queens, (71 Ave/Forest Hill and 21 Street/Queensbridge), all stops in Manhattan & Brooklyn, from 179 Street/Jamaica, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
V Train: 6th Avenue Local
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hills, Queens, through Manhattan, to Kings Highway, Brooklyn.
[Nights/Weekends] – No Service; Use F for service to/from Brooklyn, and E for service to/from Queens. Transfer between E and F at West 4 Street, Manhattan.
Nassau Street Lines:
J Train: Nassau Street Express (See "Additional Notes:" for changes)
[Middays] – All stops in Queens, express stops in Brooklyn and Manhattan, from Jamaica Center, Queens to Broad Street, Manhattan,
(J bypasses stations from Myrtle Ave to Marcy Ave, Brooklyn, on trips to Manhattan (AM hrs) and to Queens (PM hrs); use M for bypassed stations.
[Rush Hours] – Same as midday service, except J/Z serve alternate stations (skip-stop service), Sutphin Blvd, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
[Evenings/Weekends/Weeknights] – All stops from Jamaica Center, Queens, through Brooklyn, to Broad Street, Manhattan.
[Weekends Nights] – All stops from Jamaica Center, Queens, through Brooklyn, to Chamber Street, Manhattan.
Z Train: Nassau Street Express (See "Additional Notes:" for changes)
Rush Hours Only: All other times, use J instead.
Additional Notes:
***R Train replace N in Manhattan and portion of Brooklyn between Canal Street and Dekalb Ave when N running via bridge. M runs whole evening until 12AM. Possibly J or Z extended to 95/Bay Ridge, RUSH HOURS MIDDAY and EVENING UNTIL 8PM if turning capacity isn't really the problem. SO DON'T TAKE MY WORD SERIOUSLY. I'M NOT TA. I JUST GOT IT FROM SOMEONE.
As long as Q is remain in Service. Q can be diamond or circle or however the heck TA changing it. Who cares!
OOPS HERE I GO AGAIN;
OOPS HERE I GO AGAIN; Your plan is somewhat related to mines that I've "POSTED" here....
Personally, I say "A" too. But Bill Newkirk is right...You really should take out the "forever" part out of it.
Seriously, I believe when it all comes down to the reopening of both sides of the Manny B, choice "B" is most logical...the W will be French Toast. No matter what, IMO, it's gonna happen...UNLESS it becomes the local on Sea Beach (That would make ole Fred a very happy man!)
This is what service patterns will PROBABLY look like in 2004...
D (6th Ave)/Q (6th Ave): Brighton
R (Broadway): Bay Ridge
B (6th Ave)/M (Nassau): West End
F, V (6th Ave): Culver
N (Broadway): Sea Beach
...There's a nice comfy home for the V, right on Macdonald Ave, being the Culver's local service.
Where DOES this leave the W? That is a question that only the TA can answer for us. Maybe the Sea Beach? Maybe West End? Or even Bay Ridge? That's a question that we can debate until the cows come home, and we would probably be farther from the answer than ever before.
-John Leung
There's no point in saying that any service plan "probably" will happen. As I just wrote on another thread, just about any service configuration that's physically possible given the structural and switch layout of the system is being analyzed.
David
>D (6th Ave)/Q (6th Ave): Brighton
R (Broadway): Bay Ridge
B (6th Ave)/M (Nassau): West End
F, V (6th Ave): Culver
N (Broadway): Sea Beach
Does 6th Avenue need five services?
Oops, forgot to change the Q back to Broadway...
A
Hey, I just set a record for shortest response ever! Yay!
Oops
www.forgotten-ny.com
I choose A of course! - now if they would only change the "W" to "T" I'd be so happy - I'd be partying for a month!!!!
I would be much happier if TA had renamed BDQ properly for the Manhattan Service changes on 7/22/01
B Replace by T
D Replace by W
Q Replace by Yellow diamond Q
I'd join your party.:-)
A. Both V and W stays in the system forever.
V - I wish they'd get on with the South 4th St subway...
W - Astoria - Whitehall only (wouldn't NN be a better designation?)
Choice A, as long as you take out the word forever, just as New Flyer 857 said. Ridership patterns sometimes changes over periods of time.
As for the V and W, both trains can be pretty useful after the MB fully opens. The W could serve as the much-needed second Broadway Local while the N runs express and the V could potentially be expanded into Brooklyn, where passengers in both lower Manhattan and Brooklyn could benefit.
Whats wrong with the word "forever" >>>V and W, both trains can be pretty useful after the MB fully opens<<< You said it yourself. And I'm totally agree with u on that. Reason why I use the word forever was because I hate see the W and V gone by 5 years 10 years or so on. I like the W and V stays on the system. NOT because they are new subway lines. Its because they can help shape a better and easier commuter for everyone. Yes, W could serve as the much-needed second Broadway Local while the N runs express. And It could also serve as the much-needed second sea beach train service as well. As for the V, I think culver riders will be happy if F could use some help. I'm not against anybody opinion. Everyone are entitled to their opinion. And I'm glad that I've brought this topic up here in this board. So I can get the idea on how well TA handles new subway lines (V and W train). AND understand how people felt about having V and W on the system. :)
There is no much-needed second Sea Beach train service. Sorry to break it to you. Check the ridership stats, which have been posted here a few times.
ExpressM,
David G is right. I've rode on the Sea Beach Line during rush hours on several occasions in the peak direction. By rush hour standards, it's not that heavily used. The N starts getting crowded (or empties out) at around 59 Street.
As for the term "forever" I only meant that ridership patterns can change. A line that is heavily used today may not be heavily used 20, 30 or 40 years from now. If for example the Broadway Local trains becomes unpopular, for whatever reason, 20 years from now, it wouldn't make sense to still run two Broadway Locals. Today though, two Broadway Locals are definitely needed.
See this message (and reply) on trainorders.com:
(there's one response as of this posting)
Amtrak and Transit Board
what is this sh____________!! that U have to pay $7.oo plus 2
see some train pictures ??
?????????????.............................!
I have so many shots of the 'D-Types' on Memorial day. But I dont feel like giving any (Not to them at least)
Is the lineoleum floor replacement program on the Kawasaki R-62's over ? What fleet would be next, the R-68's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmm, this brings up something up to me as well. Will the R62A's get the same treatment or are they being left alone for the time being?
How would feel about if the MTA was ambitious enough to utilize it in their subways and buses? Would you mind much if it got major projects done like the 2nd Avenue subway done faster?
Like a DBOM concept?
What's that?
Design
Build
Operate
Maintain
Or do you mean a Corporate Sponsorship type of thing?
Like, perhaps, the "IBM Second Avenue Subway", the "McDonald's Car", or "Grand Central Terminal, sponsored by Cysco"?
Chip
It means if you win the bid, you design it, you built it, you operate it, and you maintain it for a period of at least ten years. Look across the river at the light rail. That's a DBOM system.
Perhaps you could elaborate what you mean by corporate funding. I mean, I don't think anyone would mind if Megagiant Conglomerated Enterprises just decided to drop a few billion to give NYC a new subway line, but I don't think that kind of no-strings-attached corporate philanthropy is what you had in mind...
Mark
A corporation funds the subway, it then profits from it.
Either a higher fare would be charged, or the government would be paying back the money. The government already uses bonds for things like this, and since government bonds tend to be more reliable, they also tend to have lower interest.
I think that the subway should charge a fare that would allow it to turn a profit, it would then be owned by a publicly held corporation
There was a time when many transit systems were run by private corporations, but they are no more for a variety of reasons.
Here's a question: how high a fare would be required for the transit operator to earn a profit?
Mark
There was a time when many transit systems were run by private corporations, but they are no more for a variety of reasons.
Because of all the FREEways that compete with them. Either way, someone pays. User fees are better than taxes because you don't force people to pay for things they don't use.
Here's a question: how high a fare would be required for the transit operator to earn a profit?
The old profitable 5¢ fare was much larger when adjusted for inflation. It didn't bother anyone. Politicing the fare is another thing that ruined privately-owned mass transit.
Actually, if one were to scrutinize the finances of the private
subway era, the nickel fare was never really sufficient.
With the current "farebox ratio", if the fare were to cover all
of the costs of a subway ride, it would be close to $3.00
Of course, if a corporation were running the system instead of
a quasi-government agency, costs might be lower.
By the means of advertising, of course.
Here's an example of corperate funding:
In São Paulo, an all new line is being planned, Line 4-Yellow, for the subway down there. Phase 1 opens 2004, and phase 2 in 2009. The line is being funded by several private banks and will be run by a company for 20 years. After 20 years, the lines will be turned back over the Metro authority, CMSP. The reason that this line can be fully funded by private sources is that the line is projected to carry an unbelevable amount of passengers: 850,000/day for phase 1 and 1,000,000/day for phase 2. And there's only going to be 12 stations on this line!!!
So they can charge the normal R$1,70 (~70 cents) one way fare like the rest of the system and still make a profit. If a private line is built in the US, the fare would be too high that no one would use it if the rest of the subway is cheaper.
I did a parody of a private line over on Harry's website a while back. The idea was built around my cherished Myrtle Avenue Express, with Manhattan trunks on Fifth and Ninth Avenues.
Fares from the outling areas (East of Jamaica Center / Main Street would be $4.50, from western Brooklyn and Queens, $3.00, and from Manhattan (within Manhattan... Or within any one single zone) $1.50.
Will they pay extra to ride this? Well in Eastern Queens it *is* the only show in town. In Western Queens if you want a fast train with a seat, yes, if you want cheap, no.
The other thing that a private company would have going for it is lower labor costs. It is 95% computerized, (Mostly so that the schedule can be accurately kept.) with high speeds (75 mph Jamaica Center to downtown Brooklyn).
I think it would fly! Shall we round up some investors?
Elias
Hmm... the wording reminds me of PBS.
Next thing you know there'll be MTA pledge drives...
Come on, you use it every day whether you like it or not. It's time to support your local transit agency! Free tote bag and coffee mug, plus gift certificate for the Transit Museum (not valid for Metrocard purchases).
PBS: Public Broadcasting SCAM! (all non-profits are scams)
If memory serves the R33WF in the Transit Museum is car 9306.
I saw a recent posting in another board that 9306 was scrapped and 9307 is the museum car.
Is 9306 really 9307 and just had the number plates switched?
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks
Allan
You mean the fake #9306 at SBK Yard is really Ex R21 #7261 & the real R33WF #9306 is in Transit Museum also R33WF #9307 is still running on #7 line. I have few pictures of fake #9306 Ex R21 #7261 & i did send to Dave P.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Thank you David.
I knew I wasn't going nuts (well no more than I already am).
A Midtown Direct train derailed on the switches leading up to the ramp to the Northeast Corridor tracks.
I was able to get a great view from my NEC train this morning. The ALP44 locomotive was almost leaning on it's side. I'm not sure if there were passengers on the train.
Of course the NJT website says there are "mechanical difficulties" this morning......
NJT site now admits derailment and states all MidTOWN Direct Trains will run to/from Hoboken and for NYC peopel to take PATH to Hoboken.
Buses will honor train tix. There is massive delays on service to/from 'Boken.
The cars derailed but stayed upright (thank goodness).
Hope they get it cleared up for the PM.
There is massive delays on service to/from 'Boken.
No great surprise there, with two of the four main tracks under Bergen Hill closed for tunnel repairs.
No it doesn't, it says due to a derailment in kearny. The ALP-44 was 4428 and the comet III that derailed was 6001.
No it doesn't, it says due to a derailment in kearny. The ALP-44 was 4428 and the comet III that derailed was 6001.
Yo Moe,
When R16 Lover wrote that the NJT website ascribed the problems to "mechanical difficulties", that's what the website said. Their statements change from time to time.
Thanks for the numbers.
Of course this won't be official for a few days but the 'rumor' is the engineer ooopsed. The rumor is he passed a signal and backed his train up (of course there is an event recorder that will tell the whole story). The one car either picked the switch or the switch moved under it, sending the car down two tracks. The damage estimates for the loco is roughly $40,000 and the Coach is $20,000. I don't know about he damage to the track.
From an AP story:
The accident occurred after the engineer noticed that the train was traveling on a track that would have taken it into Hoboken instead of New York, said NJ Transit spokeswoman Penny Bassett Hackett.
He stopped the train and called the dispatch center to ask for instructions. A supervisor directed the engineer to back up to align the train with the proper track. The engine and lead car derailed when they crossed the open switch.
I wonder how the train managed to derail on a training point switch. At the very worst the reversing train should have simply busted the switch machine.
I don't know the particular section of track involved.
Perhaps the forward movement was through a trailable switch
set against the train. Then, when the train reversed, it
would have split the switch and derailed.
Well the location is where the Kerney Connection (2 tracks) diverges from the Hoboken Main (3 tracks). The engineer went down the straight track to hoboken after missing a Kerney turnout. If the train was backing up and the dispatcher threw (something that should not be possible via switch interlocking) the diverging switch under the train then it should have just trailed through it.
Does anyone know why there are three tracks at the West Falls Church (orange line) and National Airport (yellow and blue lines) stations of the DC Metro?
Mark
National Airport station was used to short-turn some Blue Line trains during rush hours in years gone by.
Also, Huntington opened well before Van Dorn Street, so for many years, while Yellow trains continued to Huntington, Blue trains had to end at National Airport.
National Airport was THE terminal on the line around 1981-1982 when I lived in Arlington.
It still was as well when I moved to DC in 1989. The Yellow line was going to Huntington, but the Blue line terminated at National Airport.
The Van Dorn Street station opened in the summer of 1993, if memory serves, and the Blue Line was extended then.
Mvh Tim
Van Dorn did open in 1993 and at that time, the Yellow/Blue line was susposed to be swapped back to the original routing plan. The Blue line was to go to Huntington, the Yellow to Van Dorn (and later, Franconia-Springfield). The roll signs on the Rohrs only had blue line signs for Huntington and the Bredas had to be reprogrammed to show Huntington as a yellow line destination. If you look at a really old Metro map (I can find one, I should have it somewhere), the blue line would run to the right of the yellow line at Pentagon. When Van Dorn opened, the crossing of the lines was eliminated. As to why this wasn't ever done is beyond me, I think it would make the yellow line have a better reason for its existance, not to mention make the trip from Franconia-Springfield go MUCH faster.
I remember that. Well, the original plan of running the Yellow line out to Van Dorn. As far as the "crossing of the lines", by that, do you mean the Blue would run from Huntington to Addison Road and the Yellow from Franconia to Mt. Vernon Square, or do you mean they just swapped them back and forth a lot?
Speaking of DC's favorite short line, wasn't the Yellow line supposed to (at some time or another) travel to and from Greenbelt, and the Green line turn back at Mt. Vernon Square? I recall seeing an old map that had the Yellow line running out to Greenbelt.
Really, they need either an extension to go straight notrh from Shaw-Howard Univ. that would cross under the current station at Georgia Ave, and then continue (possibly to the Brightwood area, the District line, or Silver Spring), an extension to go east from Shaw, or an extension south from Huntington. The Yellow line has only two stations to itself.
And what's this Purple line I've heard mentioned?
What I meant by crossing over was that the two lines on the map would cross over each other. I could make bitmaps and show you what I mean.
Both yellow and green were suspoesed to go to Greenbelt. I don't think they need that much service on that line.
The purple line is the color for almost every proposed line. The one you probably heard about is the beltway line. It would run in a loop either outside, inside, or inside and outside the beltway connecting Bethesda, Silver Spring, New Carrollton, Greenbelt, Largo, Branch Avenue, Alexandria, and Tysons Corner. Some people want it as a light rail, others as heavy. One of the alignments would be a light rail in the old Georgetown Branch ROW, but it is now a gravel bike trail to be paved over once this whole thing is decided on. I, am one of the people who would much rather see a bike trail there.
Thanks! I get it now. They just twisted past each other.
Every proposed line? Well, that's Dulles International Airport, Laurel, Bowie, Centreville, Largo... wait, Largo's the Blue Line. I've heard about long buried proposals for Lincolnia, Lorton, Woodbridge, Germantown, Olney, Mount Vernon. Actually, Bowie and Laurel were buried as well, and I'm none too sure about the Brandywine/Waldorf proposals
Problem in all these proposals, is they'd all be extensions, with little room for a new color. But, if Metro ever thinks BWI, we could likely see one new color.
The Beltway line was supposed to be red white and blue, the only three-color mix single line to exist. That's the last I recall seeing of it.
West Falls Church's third track is for access to the yard west of the station, it could also be used as the start of a line to Dulles.
National Airport's third track was originally for turning blue line trains. When the yellow line opened, it was used for turning trains, but since no diamond crossover exists at the airport, it was common to see two trains moving through the station in the same direction. When the yellow line was extended to Huntington, the blue line used the middle track to turn around and the yellow lines passed on the outside. I haven't been to the airport in awhile but if you look closely on the northbound (inbound) platform pylons, you could see the covered up arrows indicating that the blue line stopped on the center track.
Any talk of a subway line to Dulles lately? I know there used to be a plan for one, but it's been awhile, and the "purple line" debate seems to be getting more attention even if the plans are still in the works.
Mark
The line to Dulles has been proposed for years. Recently, VA discovered it had some sort of budget shortfall, and many road projects have been delayed. I don't know how this will affect the orange line but I am sure it will.
Isn't there a pier provision for the Dulles line BEFORE you get to West Falls Church? Meaning that a Dulles branch would diverge just before a westbound train reaches WFC?
Yes, that is there too, but I am not in favor of that idea. I think it would be much more beneficial to have the trains stop at West Falls Church, which has a large parking facility, run through the yard, and then onto the Dulles extension.
Speaking of the Dulles Line, a Congressman from Oregon is suggesting that they start building the final stretch of the route now (near Dulles), so that when they decide on a routing, the line will be open sooner and will cost less. The routing near the airport is pretty much agreed on, I believe. It is whether or not the line should serve Tysons Corner and where it should leave the Orange Line is what is subject to the most debate.
I believe I read somewhere that a station shell is already built at Dulles. Is there any truth to this?
That is a rumor, I don't see where in the Dulles Airport facility it could possibly be. I doubt it exists. If the Airport Authority had some common sense, they would build a shell now since they are doing all that other construction now, including a people mover similar to the one at Hartsfield and Denver International to replace the Mobile Lounges. Since the traffic patterns and such are a mess now because of construction, I imagine people would prefer they build the station now as opposed to later. I figure the station will be underground with the line entering the last tunnel at the Sully Road/Route 28 interchange, although an elevated line to the terminal would be cool!
There was a site linked from the Transfer Station section of this website (the link is now dead, I've emailed Dave to let him know) that had a photograph of a grating over a stairway that supposedly accessed the station shell and a detailed description of where that grating was located, also a description of where a second access point was (but no photograph). These locations are in what is currently a parking lot and I would give at least some credibility to them since I cannot imagine losing several parking spaces to a stairway that has no purpose.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why would the stairway to the Metro be in the parking lot? Wouldn't there be a real access (escalator/elevator) from somewhere within the terminal? While I am not an expert on where any false walls, hidden stairwells, and like are in Dulles Airport, having been through most of the main terminal where such a thing would be located, I can not imagine where such a thing might be located. If you do think about it, the ramps that lead to the arrivals roadway do look somewhat like the corridors in the Woodley Park, Cleveland Park, Van Ness, and Tenleytown Stations on the Red Line.
If I recall the info on the site correctly, the two stairwell locations in the parking lot were about the logical distance and orientation to be at one end of a platform, while the logical location for stairwells at the opposite end of the same platform would be in what is currently a service area of one of the terminal buildings. I'm not familiar with the layout of Dulles so I don't know which building. The website indicated that a terminal expansion was planned that would encompass part of this parking lot and that the stairwells currently ending in the parking lot would likely be adjacent to an expanded bus area (for suburban buses).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you can find the website again, that would be great! I don't go out there often but maybe I can take a look around next time I am there.
Oren, here's the link:
http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~carguy/
but it is now a dead link since GWU has shut down that server and its owner hasn't transferred it to the replacement server (he may no longer be a student or staff member, or may have simply decided not to transfer it). The site included photographs of the revenue collection platforms in the system as well, and a few other behind-the-scenes photographs, including the Capitol subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It may be archived courtesy of archive.org. Unfortunately, archive.org appears to be down right now, so I can't check, but it may be up again when you see this post.
I found this at archive.org:
Metrorail Track and Structures
This is the site I was referencing. My memory said stairway but the site says elevator shaft so I'll presume that my memory is faulty. At one time there was a photograph of this structure available; I thought it was also on that site but perhaps it was elsewhere. It was pretty non-descript looking, in any event, and took up approximately six to eight parking spaces.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where did it say elevator shaft on that site? It said best place to view is unknown. I find it suspicious that it is only a single tracked station, making me discount this even more. Also, they will or already have found this shell because they are building a people mover from the new parking garage to the terminal and it is being built right where the shell would be.
Where did it say elevator shaft on that site?
One free-standing superstructure in the parking lot is covered with concrete slabs. The superstructure is about the size and shape of a Metro® elevator kiosk and may be a ready-built elevator shaft.
It said best place to view is unknown.
To view the actual station shell itself, yes, since any potential access points are not within public areas.
I find it suspicious that it is only a single tracked station...
I agree, that does seem odd... but keep in mind that it was supposedly constructed during the early years of the Metro, when traffic volume was nowhere near what it is today.
The site mentions a design provision for a peoplemover that has apparently not been constructed; is it possible that the one now being constructed is complementary to the one planned for the station, i.e. it would serve both? Just speculating.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Their definition of people mover was the "flat escalators". The people mover I was referring to was the type that they have at the Atlanta and Denver airports between terminals.
Ahh... THAT kind of people mover.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, I knew that local DC crap is all mungeled up with congress, but does it really take an Oregon Congressman to tell the DC Metro how to do things right? That amuses me. I would have thought Virginia local politicians would be responsible for Dulles expansion, or some independant Semi-governmental thing like the NY-NJ Port Authority is. I wonder how many congressman take the Metro.
The District (occasionally) benefits or (frequently) suffers at the pleasure and whim of Congress. We have no vote in the House or Senate for the Federal taxes we pay, and have to rely on the "kindness of strangers" who may grant audience and the occasional sympathetic ear to our Delegate to the House. This is how WMATA can be led around by any legislator, since there isn't a third entity having a say in things with the states of MD and VA.
The bastion of democracy denies the residents of its capital city the very right of representation everyone else who pays federal taxes receives. If they treat over a half-million taxpayers in their front and back yards like this, is it any wonder why they screw up transit planning and funding?
Ergo, the new DC license plate logo:
"TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION"
Mark
Yep, remember what happened before they could even start building the Metro?
Congressman Natcher from Kentucky held up the funding until several DC freeway projects were approved. Luckily, it was later possible to get them un-approved.
Congress meddles in DC affairs constantly, generally to no good purpose or effect.
Mvh Tim
Wow, I knew that local DC crap is all mungeled up with congress, but does it really take an Oregon Congressman to tell the DC Metro how to do things right? That amuses me. I would have thought Virginia local politicians would be responsible for Dulles expansion, or some independant Semi-governmental thing like the NY-NJ Port Authority is. I wonder how many congressman take the Metro.
I was under the assumption that West Falls Church was the agreed-upon point for the Dulles spur to begin. (would make more sense, considering the three tracks allow for an easy passage) If I am not mistaken, the trains can access the yard (which I can't see from the train itself, BTW, anyone know where it is?) from either of the three tracks, right? All they'd need to do is time it so that Dulles Airport trains are always cleared for the center track westbound, and for the southernmost track (current eastbound track) eastbound, as well as the probably easy task of timing it so that Dulles trains and Vienna/Fairfax trains don't run too close to each other. (The problem with that would be mostly related to an eastbound train from Dulles getting tied up with an eastbound from Vienna, and likely tying up a westbound Dulles train)
Aside from that, has anyone heard anything about an Orange line extension out to Centreville? I recall reading somewhere that there's room in the I-66 median for a rail line and stations all the way to US 50, so why leave it unused?
Turnshort trains, maybe?
-J!
The only regularly scheduled short trains in the system are on the Red Line and operate between Grosvenor and Silver Spring. There are pocket tracks beyond both stations that are used to turn trains, all though I was once on a Silver Spring bound train which used the crossover south of the station, entered on the inbound track, and just waited there until its departure time. There were some Orange Line trains that were put in at West Falls Church in the morning and layed up at New Carrollton, then ran back in the evening and dropped out at West Falls Church, I imagine some trains still do that since the yard is just west of the station.
The only regularly scheduled short trains in the system are on the Red Line and operate between Grosvenor and Silver Spring.
Not entirely true. Those are the only regular "short-turn" trips. But, mostly on weekends, there are a few regular Blue/Orange line trains originating from Stadium-Armory, Rosslyn, National Airport, Cheverly, and L'Enfant Plaza.
Strangely, with all the provisional turnback points on the lines, none of them are ever used, except those that you mentioned. A few weekend Red line trains start their runs out of Union Station, Fort Totten, Metro Center (which doesn't even have a crossover, given that the timetables don't show all stations, this might be out of Dupont Circle or Farragut North, or deadheaded to the Center from Shady Grove), Woodley Park-Zoo (probably out of Van Ness-UDC, but who knows?), and Friendship Heights. Even more strange is the fact that the Fort Totten originationg trips are bound for Glenmont - or Silver Spring in a few cases.
There are pocket tracks beyond both stations that are used to turn trains, all though I was once on a Silver Spring bound train which used the crossover south of the station, entered on the inbound track,
and just waited there until its departure time.
You and me both. And I don't visit DC that often.
There were some Orange Line trains that were put in at West Falls Church in the morning and layed up at New Carrollton, then ran back in the evening and dropped out at West Falls Church, I imagine some trains still do that since the yard is just west of the station.
Indeed, as far as I recall, they still do. I think they pull the excess peak trains at WFC. National Airport Station sees the occasional weekday peak Blue Line turnback, though what gets done with the train is beyond me. If it deadheds to the yard in Alexandria, it might as well be in-service to King Street.
Strangely, with all the provisional turnback points on the lines, none of them are ever used, except those that you mentioned.
There are probably two reasons for this: many of the turnback points were originally terminal stations, like Dupont Circle and Farragut North; and some of them were probably built to provide operational flexibility during service disruptions, not for "regular" use.
The part of the system I work on in Stockholm has three terminals (two lines with separate northern terminals share the same southern terminal) and four additional turnback points. None of the additional turnback points are EVER used in regular (i.e., non-disrupted) service.
Mvh Tim
I wonder just how many rail systems have generally unused turnback crossovers.
As far as DC, This list would make all the original terminals no longer used (or very rarely)
Anacostia
Ballston-MU
Dupont Circle
Farragut North (discontinued twice, first when Dupont Circle opened for red trains, the at the end of the Green line commuter shortcut when the mid-city segment opened (September 18th, 1999 - I still have the pennant))
Fort Totten
Gallery Pl-Chinatown (Yellow/Green line lower level, dropped when U Street was opened)
Rhode Island Ave.
Stadium-Armory (at least, I THINK they don't use the layup track anymore)
U Street-Cardozo
Van Dorn Street
Van Ness-UDC
Wheaton
I omitted Grosvenor and Silver Spring because half the midday and peak Red trains run exclusively between the two stations and do not service Shady Grove or Glenmont (That goes for weekends also) I also omitted National Airport, because, supposedly, a few peak Blue trains short-turn there.
Then there are the other interlocks, which may serve little to no purpose other than for disrupted service. And, didn't the one at Federal Triangle derail a Metro train once? IIRC, those were the first casualties of the system.
Philly has plenty of seemingly useless crossovers as well, though I'm not getting into that bit of detail.
Thanks for the list. I wonder how many of these have actual turnback facilities, though; for example, Gallery Place doesn't -- off-peak, trains would simply wrong-rail from L'Enfant Plaza past Archives to Gallery Place, then change ends and depart Gallery Place on the "right" track. The tracks beyond Gallery Place ended after a short distance at a concrete wall.
Mvh Tim
except for Gallery Place, all of them still have the interlocks, but none of them are used for turnbacks anymore. By some sort of logic, I suppose the Green line could do short trips from Fort Totten to Anacostia, except for a little obstacle that can be summed up in two words: Yellow Line
So, it's none too likely we'll see much activity at any of the original terminals anymore. I bet the only "middle of the road" terminals to remain will be Grosvenor, Silver Spring, and Mt Vernon Sq-UDC (which really isn't a "midway" turnback, since all Yellow trains end there, but it happens to be part of the Green Line thruway.)
Gallery never had a crossover on the lower level. Trains would use either track from north of L'Enfant to Gallery and then double back, switching to the correct track north of L'Enfant. Either track could be used for either direction.
The idea of making short turn Green Lines ending at U Street somehow after Branch Avenue opened arose but hasn't gotten anywhere. Last July 4, some trains did turn there from Branch Avenue, but I don't know how it went.
I take it they'd run from Branch Avenue to U Street. Maybe Georgia Avenue, both stations have the diamond crossovers. But, under that logic, it wouldn't be too long before someone thought, "why not Fort Totten?".
What you'd said earlier about trains being tied up using crossovers instead of layup tracks would probably hold true, though. I suppose timing it so that Green line Branch Avenue/Greenbelt, Green Line Anacostia/U Street, and the Yellow line runs don't get tied up would be easy enough. AFAIK, they run less Green/Yellow trains than Blue/Orange, probably because 1) Less distance is covered, so there's not as much volume, and 2) The Yellow and Blue share some of the same tracks and stations, so they need not exactly match the frequency.
The Green, Yellow, Blue, and Orange lines all run at the same intervals. The Red line runs twice as often as all the other lines, but it doesn't share trackage with any other line.
The reason for the short turn trains on weekends is to provide service around opening time of 8 a.m. Running time from New Carrollton to L'Enfant is about 25 minutes. On weekends, there'a train that leaves L'Enfant around 8 a.m. Otherwise, the first train to Virginia wouldn't arrive until 8:25.
Otherwise, there isn't any short turning on trains, except on the red line.
Michael
The trains starting in the middle of the routes on weekends (and weekdays, too) is not a short turn. That is so if you are waiting at DuPont Circle on Sunday morning, if the first train left Shady Grove at 8, no trains would arrive at DuPont Circle until 8:30. Simply, by starting trains in the middle of the route, there will be a train within about 10 minutes of the opening of the system.
You've got the gist of it there. They're for the (excessively rare) short-turn trips on the Blue or Orange lines. Also, the original Blue line was run from National Airport to Stadium-Armory, hence the pocket track east of Stadium-Armory Station. I think more trains turned back at West Falls Church during its earlier years. I have an old (circa 1995, I think, posibly 1993 - Greenbelt Station was opened, Franconia-Springfield wasn't) Metro guide that mentions Express service they used to have. I've never heard of express trains on the DC Metro, but I think this might have been the same time as the turnbacks at West Falls Church. You might catch a peak hour train using the center track for terminating.
As far as National Airport, some of the early morning weekend Blue Line trains originate there, though I've no clue what track they use. Probably the center track, though, as not to tie up the early Yellow trains from Huntington.
You've got the gist of it there. They're for the (excessively rare) short-turn trips on the Blue or Orange lines. Also, the original Blue line was run from National Airport to Stadium-Armory, hence the pocket track east of Stadium-Armory Station. I think more trains turned back at West Falls Church during its earlier years. I have an old (circa 1995, I think, posibly 1993 - Greenbelt Station was opened, Franconia-Springfield wasn't) Metro guide that mentions Express service they used to have. I've never heard of express trains on the DC Metro, but I think this might have been the same time as the turnbacks at West Falls Church. You might catch a peak hour train using the center track for terminating.
As far as National Airport, some of the early morning weekend Blue Line trains originate there, though I've no clue what track they use. Probably the center track, though, as not to tie up the early Yellow trains from Huntington.
I think that they should extend the Hillside Avenue portion of the IND to Francis Lewis Boulevard in Queens since the subway has already been built. They shouldn't bother with the 181 St. station, but have a station at perhaps 188 St. and Francis Lewis Boulevard.
#3 West End Jeff
I think a lot of things should be done but where to find the money is the problem.
Prison Labor! Instead of making wallets they shoud be building subways. (Sorry, I know it's crual)
Prison Labor! Instead of making wallets they shoud be building subways. (Sorry, I know it's crual)
Don't apologise! You're absolutely right. It is even arguably just to make those who detract from society to put something into it - even if we have to chain them up to do it.
But they'd do a shoddy job!
If a wallet is shoddy, no big deal. If a subway is shoddy, BIG DEAL!
And what will happen to the license plate industry? Again posters at SubTalk are shafting drivers once more.
Well, now! We don't actually know that the subway has been built. This is just something a TA employee said to a poster on this board. Doesn't prove anything.
That said, any extension of the Hillside Line is OK in my book. If it were up to me, I'd have it extneding to 268th St, with the easternmost part of the station litterally abutting the Nassau County line.
:-) Andrew
A 1939 proposal of extended transit in Queens included the extension
of the Hillside Line to Little Neck Road [Parkway]. Never came to
fruition. It also included extending the Flushing Line to Bell Blvd., with a spur to College Point. Many things were altered post WWII. As Bill from Maspeth stated, all is possible, if funding were
available. But now we have NIMBYs also. >G<
:-) Sparky
I see this extension as NIMBY-proof, if it stopped at Frnacis Lewis Blvd. Queens Village and Hollis are already full of E/F riders who must use busses to get to 179th or Jamaica Ctr. A 2 track spur leading from the upper level east of 179th St to Francis Lewis Blvd. should be fairly easy to build.
But, the $$$ doesn't exist and the 2nd Ave line needs to be built first.
Take some money from the military, who needs space elevators?
who needs space elevators?
To go to space?
Why? Do we have any real space colones in space (no ISS)?
Do we have any real space colones in space (no ISS)?
No, but don't you think an elevator would make it easier to build colonies?
do you have the technolgy to do it?
We will by the time we have an elevator to space.
Agreed. You could probably get the subway to 188th as a first step for $100 million, which is peanuts in the MTA world. You only need 5-6 blocks of tunnel (the layup tracks end at 182) and then you need a station, which represents most of the cost.
It also included extending the Flushing Line to Bell Blvd., with a spur to College Point. Many things were altered post WWII.
Was the extension to College Point supposed to follow the ROW of the old LIRR Whitestone Branch? It's a shame that line didn't last a little longer as that line would have made a great subway expansion.
At the moment it's not handy. Also no street names mentioned for
alignments. Just color coded by division and the street of terminal
mentioned. There were quite a number of variations from the IND
second system. Won't be going North, till the 14th and posting
further data from it prior to the 17th. Even shows two lines
running north from 57th Street under Central Park. Central Park is
not outlined on the map either. When I do fetch it,
I can only describe the contents. So be patient.
If some other SubTalkers has excess, please do post.
Thank you,:-) Sparky
Quite true. Though, back then, the Whitestone Branch didn't pull enough ridership to warrent the continuation of it, so off it went...
College Point, IMO, has been greatly affected by this. Probably, subway expansion would be a waste considering the fact it's not overly populated there.
College Point is actually quite dense considering its distance from Manhattan.
:-) Andrew
Probably, subway expansion would be a waste considering the fact it's not overly populated there.
You should see the pictures of the Corona Line (later Flushing Line) running through open fields in Queens. Those areas were not populated AT ALL, but the subway opened them up. If there was a subway to Whitestone, the density there would undoubtedly be greater.
I agree with you there, but no one's going to see a subway there. It's so far from anything.
It's so far from anything.
I'm sure some people said the same thing when they saw a new elevated line on Queens Blvd about 1915.
Well, that only applies to Queens Blvd. because it's right smack in the middle of Queens, where everyone can access it. Believe me, CP doesn't need one.
It's so far from anything.
I'm sure some people said the same thing when they saw a new elevated line on Queens Blvd about 1915.
Well, that only applies to Queens Blvd. because it's right smack in the middle of Queens, where everyone can access it. Believe me, CP doesn't need one.
And if a subway was planned for CP the nimby's living there would notice that what happened in the past along Queens Blvd is about to happen to them. People will move to a less built up area if a subway goes there. It has happened all over the city since the first subway was planned 100 years ago.
Don't more people per sq mile increase the property taxes. Therefore making more money for the city that can be used to payback the subway?
No. Property tax is paid on the property, by the property owners.
It *is* assessed according to its value, so a big apartment building will be assessed (and taxed) more than a two room bungalo, but the denser population, by itself, does not mean a higher tax base. I am sure that city housing projects do not pay a city property tax.
Once upon a time...
You had to own property (and pay property taxes) in order to vote.
Of course in those days that was about the only tax their was. and it made sense that those who paid the taxes should be the ones (through their election of representatives) who decided how to spend it.
Elias
> no one's going to see a subway there. It's so far from anything.
But isn't the whole point of a subway to go from a place "so far from anything" to a place closer?
- Lyle Goldman
The same thing was true in those parts of Queens when the IND subway line was built that certain areas were sparsely populated.
#3 West End Jeff
The same with the end of the IRT in Queens. My mom recalls farms in Flushing in the 1950's, only perhaps a mile away from the Main Street terminus between Main St and Kissena Blvd where now high rise co-ops occupy that site.
The mafia of some sort or another (Russian, Italian, Japanese, you pick)!
According to a 1939 map I have, it was supposed to go to Little Neck Parkway.
*That* is where I would put it. Terminate the (Q) at 179 or FLB and take the (F) all the way out to 268th ST.
Elias
I'd have it extneding to 268th St, with the easternmost part of the station litterally abutting the Nassau County line.
Why stop there? Nassau is only Eastern Queens! Extend it all the way to the end of Hillside Av where it joins the Jericho Turnpike!
Nice try, but 100 years ago the boundary was set. It would be hard to cross that line.....
Well, if you are going to spend the money (this would have to be number 100 on the list) how about Belmont Park? It could be the new site for an arena for the Islanders and perhaps a bastetball team, with LIRR and subway access.
Where are you going to find the room to build this crap without ruining Belmont Park? The third and final challenge in racing's Triple Crown.
Nice try, but 100 years ago the boundary was set. It would be hard to cross that line.....
Well, I have suggested before that NYC should be 13 boroughs, not 5, made up of 15 current counties. Better still get the rest of NYS to secede as Albania or something...
Well, I have suggested before that NYC should be 13 boroughs
NO! I wouldn't have a problem shrinking the state, but if that were to happen, the 1898 mistake should be rectified.
IF 1898 had never happened, the subway would already be crossing boundaries, another boundary wouldn't mean anything.
"IF 1898 had never happened"
I wonder if the NYC Subway would have extended outside of Manhattan?
Why not? The subway in Boston extended to Cambridge and other suburbs almost immediately.
The first subway didn't go to Queens and the line to Brooklyn was only a token line (no pun intended) because otherwise Brooklyn would be royally pissed.
It was the BMT that gave Brooklyn and Queens transit. The IRT's 42nd Street line only existed on account of the Steinway Tunnel originally having been started by the NY&QC, and even today, Queens subway service is sparse, and Staten Island subway service is nonexistent.
This is unification?
SI needs North Shore and a subway down Richmond Ave. A tunnel between Brooklyn (cheaper, but more time) or Manhatten (5 miles of tunnel, more expensive, less time) is deperatly needed. Thoses express buses are causing me to have to take 3 baths a day (global warming). Also they aren't Disel-Electric Hybrids which is a crime. If a tunnel is too expensive, load the subway train (whole, with passengers) onto a ferry and ferry the train to the other side.
At least when you built a tunnel from SI to Manhattan, you will have a five mile stretch of NO NIMBYS!
The BART tunnels are like huge garden hoses lying on the floor of the bay. The were mad in sealed sections, sunk, and then attached, making a long tube. It was done to make them ore earthquake proof. Perhaps something like that can be done here too.
Elias
And connect it with LIRR. Like in the same building.
No, a better terminal would be a couple of miles west at Hillside Av & the East Williston LIRR station. Hillside Av is densely populated to there but further east to Jericho Tnpk it gets quite sparsly populated. And this way John could take the LIRR from Sea Cliff only to E. Williston to get the subway.
The subway can turn south and terminate at LIRR queens Village. Also the Q1 can be terminated early at Hillside instead of crawling to jamaica terminal.
It would be a great idea to extend the Hillside Avenue IND line to 268 St. Will they ever do it though?
#3 West End Jeff
If we want to speculate, perhaps the best route would be along Hillside as far as Springfield Blvd., then curving north to run along Union Turnpike, serving Glen Oaks and the Long Island Jewish Medical Center. The last station would be around Langdale Street at the city line.
Thatv would help me out--I'd be able to walk to the subway! Plus the line would end at the highest numbered street in NYC, 271st St.
:-) Andrew
I think that it would be a great idea to extend the IND Qieens Line to 271 St. in Queens at the Nassau border.
#3 West End Jeff
How much more crowded would the IND Queens line be if it went to the City line?
"How much more crowded would the IND Queens line be if it went to the City line?"
That of course is a question. How many take a bus to the subway.
Well.... Ask the question the other way around. "How many more people will work in Manhattan if we build this than if we don't"
Well what does the presence of a subway train have to do with where my job is? I might look for work that I can get to by train, but all of Manhattan qualifies for that.
More likely is it opens up new possibilities as to where I might look for housing, knowing that better transit is available.
This is what the NIMBYs fear, is that you will move in next to them. Not so much as the might not like the shade of your skin, but that bigger buildings will be built where now there are smaller buildings. That there will be more population density. And worst of all, that there will be more teens, cause they are the worst kind of people, always hanging out, and blaying lout music, doing drugs, and all of those discusting things that you did when you were that age!
Oh well.... put it all in the balance, and according to me, we are better off with more transit and less automobiles.
Elias
I wasn't refering to the line between 179 and City Line.
I was thinking of the line at Roosevelt Ave and Queens Plaza going toward NYC.
Will people waiting there find the trains to be more crowded?
At Queens Plaza, and even at Roosevelt, you might just well take the (R) or (V) as the express (Hell, the (F) doesn't even go to Queens Plaza anymore.
:-) Andrew
Correct. I understood that. But the people who live east of the line work in the city, and get there somehow. Do the take the bus to Main Street and get on there? If so, extending the line would have no effect on line ridership.
The second part, of course was, having the line extended *will* entice more people to move into the new service areas, and eventually will increase the ridership.
Fo all who would make fantasy lines: extenting existing lines doesn't cut it. If you builed a new line, you need to build a new crossing and city trunk line. Otherwise you will just be overloading existing services.
Elias
They could build a connector to the Archer Ave. Line and run some trains on the BMT Broadway Jamaica Line.
#3 West End Jeff
"They could build a connector to the Archer Ave. Line and run some trains on the BMT Broadway Jamaica Line."
They could. Nobody in their right mind would ride on it, but they *could* do it.
I am against all extensions of existing lines. If you need more lines in queens (and we do) then yes, they should come together at Jamaica Center, but from Jmaaica Center run a new line down Myrtle Avenue, through a new tunnel (on Pineapple Street) and then under Wall Street to a new mega-station on the West Side Highway between the WTC site and the WFC.
From there I'd work my way onto Fifth Avenue via Moore Street and West Broadway.
Ofcourse, I've already drawn that plan, you will find it here: Myrtle / Fifth Avenue Subway.
Elias
I like that idea.
The subway extension would remain within territory where NIMBY is not a serious issue yet (just the opposite - people in that area would favor it). It would shorten the ride for people coming in on MSBA express buses, and would increase ridership.
If we had the money to do it (the 188th Street station wouldn't be a big deal, since the line ends just past 182nd Street and so the MTA would only have to dig another 5 blocks or so to get the line that far), here are the challenges we'd face:
1) Ridership goes up, but so does crowding at stations like Van Wyck Blvd, Union Turnpike and Forest Hills because the trains would arrive with more people on them.
2) Increasing frequency of trains would be a bit complicated due to limited capacity on the express track. A minor improvement could be done, however, with signal and procedural improvements. It is important not to compromise safety.
3) Longer route = more rolling stock needed. A lengthened F route would need more subway cars.
Hey the R-160 is comming no equipment shortage.
I think it should go even further, to Springfield/Hillside.
Little Neck Parkway is where it was planned to go.
I happened to look over a New York Subway map the other day and I was amazed by the fact that the IND comes very close to duplicating the BMT. There are so many stations in Brooklyn where the two intercede that is amazes me why Mayor Hylan, who had a grudge against the BMT, would go so far as to build a complete new subway system with apparently only that grudge in mind. At least the bum could have built his system where it was really needed. It is not as bad in Manhattan, especially around 8th Avenue. But the Brooklyn comparison is utterly ridiculous. As far as Moses in concerned, to me he is the sworn enemy of the New York rapid transit system. Put everyone in a car, so to speak. The result is the LIE, the biggest parking lot outside of Los Angeles. We out here in California know all about clogged freeways ( parkways to you). Why a guy like that would want to do something like he did is beyond me. He must have been a suburbanite at heart, but I now know from other railfanners that Nassau county is also clogged with highway traffic. I'm sure Nassauites would love to have a RT system to relieve the crowded highways. These two guys are nothing but crums in my book.
The entire IND, with the exception of the Queens Boulevard line was built to replace existing BMT and IRT lines. The Sixth and Eighth Avenue subways replaced the Sixth and Ninth Avenue els, The Fulton Subway replaced the Fulton El.
Hylan did nothing but put the private companies out of business. In the forty years they existed, hundreds of miles of rapid transit were built. In the 60 years since they've ceased to exist, only a few miles have been built, but many more have been removed. The New York City subway is the only subway smaller now than in 1940. All of that can be attributed to the Menace to Society known as Hylan.
IMHO JUST FOLLOW THE MONEY! Let us not forget the "quiet money" under the table bucks and "BIG" Political Contributions that have been used in the last 50 years by the automobile industry and major oil companies to secure their position in the appropriation of funds. These "arrangements", allowed "Special Interests" to have Freeways, Interstate Highways, Bridges and Tunnels etc. constructed, to favor the private passanger automobile, in lieu of public transportation. Gasoine consumption by the automobile has made the oil industry rich but at the same time it has also polluted the land and it's citizens.
Don't get me wrong...we must all make a living and co-exist together but a disproportionate amount of lobbying and kissing up by special interests had impared and impeded the amount of funding that should have been earmarked for the "Public" in public transportation.
The whole story is told in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
I have to agree. WOuldn't it be great if they used the money they spent on some of the lines such as the Fulton Subway and the Concourse on lines that were built basically to replace the Fulton el and the Jerome el, on lines through areas where there was no subay access, such as some of the 2nd system plans or through the center like the Metropolitan Ave corridor, or lots of arfeas in Queens or Brookln where there is no access. The Fulton subway and the Concourse are great lines, but all they did is replicate routes they already had.
The Queens line was the only line that really went into new territory. The 6th and 8th Ave lines were also necessary lines, even though they replicated the 6th AVe el and the 9th Avenue el, but (please don't start throwing rocks) the removal of the els really improved the quality of life in Manhattan. The removal of the els (running for cover again) was really necessary for Manhattan to become the great place it is.
However, either the third or second Ave el should have remained until a replacement subway was built.
"Brooklyn", I missed the Y while typing......
There still are a few elevated lines in Manhattan.
Well, you know what I mean.....trunk lines. The trunk lines are gone. I don't mean the small pieces here and there.
........or the High line for that matter......
It feels good to be back, doesn’t it? I can’t recall the last time I posted to this message board.
As for the subject at hand, I think Robert Moses was a product of his time, instead of the other way around. There are undoubtedly many politicians who have the same opinions as Moses, but none have come to wield nearly as much power as he did. Robert Moses: rubblemaker extraordinaire, destroyer of neighbourhoods, enemy of the poor.
When Moses came to full form, America was deeply locked in a cold war with the Red Menace. If you look at how he engineered his opinion into projects, you will see that individuality is consistently favored over communality.
Moses was in favor of suburbs and the automobile, and opposed to urbanism, public transportation, and the poor.
The automobile is the most shining example of American individual freedom. You can go where you want, when you want, and no one is going to stop you. You need not rely on others, and you need not associate with perceived undesirables. Have you ever stood in traffic these days? Almost every car has one occupant, hermetically sealed from the outside world. On the other hand, public transportation is the great equalizer. It is really no wonder that a despicable man such as Moses would have a visceral hatred for it. Rich and poor ride alike (meaning the rich have to ride with the supposed undesirables), and you are at the mercy of the transportation means. You can’t really go where you want, whenever you want. What’s worse, it isn’t operated by a free market company, but a government agency. Never mind the responsibility to the greater good of society that comes from using public transportation.
There are a large number of parallels between the suburbs and the automobile, both of which were coincidentally on the rise at the time of Moses. Like the automobile, the suburban dwelling permits individual freedom. You own your own property, you can do with it what you wish, and you can build a white picket fence to keep the poor out. On the other hand, an urban neighborhood such as mine on Second Avenue sees all sorts of people from all walks of life. You have neighbors, and you must be mindful of them. If you aren’t convinced, just look at how the Moses era lashed out at urbanism through the creation of superblocks. New York City projects are set on superblocks, skewed 45 degrees from the surrounding urban fabric of street grid, with huge setbacks. The monolithic red brick buildings rise above the surrounding buildings, isolating themselves from the neighbourhood.
So what are we left with now? The ruin of a selfish, failed individualistic philosophy.
MATT-2AV
What’s worse, it isn’t operated by a free market company, but a government agency.
In public transit's heyday, it was operated by free market companies. The government only started taking over when they realized the mistakes they made in unfairly subsidizing the competition.
Toll all roads, eliminate all transit subsidies. When faced with the TRUE cost of one mode over another, transit will win HANDS DOWN, and you won't need government ownership of anything, the government can go back to providing for the common defense and ensuring domestic tranquility.
You're right, many of the original transit lines were operated by private companies. The IRT and BMT were, but the IND never was, hence the name.
However, if I am not mistaken, by the hay day of Moses, all of the local lines had been taken over by one (pinko) government agency or another. And this was after many of those companies competed for the most profitable routes, leading to redundant transit in some regions and other regions without any transit at all.
Who should operate transit? The government or Enron? Hmmm.... that's a tough one, but with all due respect, I'll have to go with the government.
If Enron operated the MTA (or just the 'E' train), you would pay your fare, the train would tell you its going one place, go somewhere else, and then kick you off without getting any of your money back. At least the MTA gives you a free transfer ticket when that happens!
MATT-2AV
If nothing else the IRT and BMT were in business to ru railroads and do it profitably until they no longer could.Just like Montana Power provided electricity here, or adjust it for your locale.What kind of bull is this deregulated market [yeah the consumer was going to save money by competition] when a broker [such as Enron if I understand the situation, maybe I do not] gets in the middle for their cut. This is modern corporate America, and even I as a longtime conservative, capatalist, free market type think it STINKS. Whether you pay your fare to ride the train or bus at what makes business run or get a susidized ride and pay in your taxes too is another story. But in our world that's the only way it seems to work as comparing now to waning years of corporate operation proves. TheNY Central according to a book I read paid 22 cents of every revenue dollar to Westchester County in taxes; the IRT paid taxes until they got in trouble. I don't thinkany public agencies pay taxes...or do they? Somebody makes it up..you and me.
Who should operate transit? The government or Enron? Hmmm.... that's a tough one, but with all due respect, I'll have to go with the government.
You don't even try to conceal your biases against private enterprise and for the government.
For every bad thing about Capitalism, there are ten bad things about socialism. You choose to use the worst example of capitalism and no examples at all of bad government to prove your point.
Yes, I'd rather go with the government to run transit instead of Enron, but I'd rather have your average corporation run transit instead of your average government agency.
There is a legend that John Hylan was an engineer who was fired when he tried to run his supervisor over with his train. I think that is pretty much folklore. John Hylan was employed as an engineer by the BRT while attending Law School. When he was fired, he developed a hatred for the BRT management. His support was galvanized after the Malbourne Street disaster.
John Hylan clearly built the IND to directly compete with the slower and clumsier BRT and to a lesser extent, the IRT. However, this was only 1/2 of his campaign against the two older systems. Key to his war against them was his maniacle support for the 5 cent fare. While the city could underwrite the cost of operation on the IND, the 5 cent fare drove the BRT and IRT into surrender.
As for the comparrison between John Hylan and Robert Moses, I think they were less similar than you might think. Robert Moses hated mass transit and did everything he could to disrupt its spread. He did it by building a massive highway and bridge infrastructure to make the automobile more convenient and desirable than mass transit.
On the other hand, John Hylan did not hate mass transit. He hated the private management of some of the mass transit agencies - and not the system itself. He built a mass transit system that was second to none and devised a strategy that ultimately ridded the city of private transit ownership. The city was then able to eliminate the less desirable aspects of the system, making it stronger. I think John Hylan was extremely cynical in his 'use' of mass transit for his own personal agenda. His supporters also learned this about him and they withdrew their support, denying him another term as mayor. But while Robert moses had no use for mass transit, John Hylan had too many uses for it.
To add to your well-taken point, Hylan's thing was also centered around popular sentiment of the time, the almost total corruption on a historic basis of Tammany hall by the "traction interests" ... he eidn't just dislike the BRT and IRT, he also had a SERIOUS dislike for the trolley operators as well. If you peruse the various stories of corruption in city hall, the traction interests were at the center of many scandals and obstruction of many other projects.
If anything, Hylan took advantage of popular sentiment at the time with his own agenda but he was able to get his own agenda through because of the general unpopularity of all the "traction interests." The five cent fare was only a political means of beating them up. As much as people may despise Hylan in retrospect, he did break the manacles of their political control over the city as a whole.
If it had not been for the war, chances are all the grand schemes (including a second avenue subway) might have been realized. Maybe.
Right Dude, I get you. But in one way they were alike. They didn't give a damn about the greater good. If Hylan was so damn sure his system was the end all, he could have built it first in areas where there was no BMT like he did do on 8th Avenue, but soon after spread it out so as to run smack into the BMT lines in Brooklyn and Queens. If his system turned out to be effective he could then have tried to expand it into areas where the so called "inefficient" BRT and IRT were falling down on the job. No, his sole intention was to bring down the BMT and maybe the IRT with it. As for Moses, how could a gluy be so short sighted. There were many people in New York who couldn't afford a car and depended on mass transit. Since New York City is both big and compact at the same time mass transit fit the city like a glove. This is not to say that selfish interests don't crop up in other fields but we're talking about 8-million people who were effected by what these two jerks were up to. Even thought Los Angeles is more spread out than New York don't think for a minute that mass transit of at least light rail wouldn't go a long way to relieving the unbelievable congestion on our freeways. But back in the early 50's we had our own Moses out here in the form of Firestone Rubber, Union Oil, and US Steel to put everyone in a car and tear up the Red Line System that was one of the greatest transportation systems in the country. When I moved out here in late 1954, they were in the process of tearing up the rest of that system and with it the advent of mass congestion. Hope to see you in October.
Moses wanted to give the 8 million people of NYC a way to get out to "the country". Hence his parkway system ... mass transit would never be built to bring people out to the country on the same scale. (Granted, there's the Coney Island / Stillwell Ave station, but that's where the "undesireables" went to spend their summers .... and Moses didn't want these undesireables on his beaches. Caro put it pretty well - he loved the public but not the people.)
--Mark
If those are Moses' sentiments, then I am right and he was a dirtbag. As for Coney Island, I don't look at it as a place for undesireables. The mindset is why not much has been done to make Coney Island a showplace once again. Somdeday I would like to see the place refurbished because to me it means fun. pleasant memories of youth and, of course, the Cyclone. I still love the place even if I am 3,000 miles away and almost 48 years removed from being a New Yorker.
I just encountered a situation that presents it self from time to time. I have the 30 unlimted Metrocard. I had to work on the East side at 59 Street, I needed to run a short errand to 10 Ave and E 60 Street. W train to cross town bus, no problem. But as I said, it was a short errand. As I tried to board the cross town bus the other way, I got the INVALID CARD message.
I fully appreciate the need to have the 18 minute blackout on the card. But as it is an unlimited card, I should be able to make a round trip. Can't they tell which way the bus is heading? If tried to on a westbound bus again, I could see why my card would be rejected. But why did will an eastbound bus not take my card?
You say that you took the W train then a westbound bus. You had no problems. How long was it from the time you swiped your card for the westbound bus until you tried to use it for the eastbound bus coming back?
That is the problem, I tried to return on the eastbound bus LESS than 18 minutes after I boarded the Westbound bus. There should be a way to block the card from being used within the 18 minute window in the same direction, yet allow a return trip (allow the card to be used on the same route but in the opposite direction.
"LESS than 18 minutes."
That is your problem. Once an unlimited card has been used, you have to wait 18 minutes before you can use it again.
You have to wait before it can be used again.
I understand the 18 minute blackout. BUT the purpose of the blackout is to prevent a person from passing the card back to other people and in effect cheating the system of a fare. I purchase an unlimited card so I can travel around the city as I please. I need to make a short trip across W 57 street. I go 3 avenues, stop in a store, make a purchase and wish to return to my place of business. I am not cheating the system of a fare by attempting to take the 57 or 31 bus back from where I came. My point is that the fare software should differenciate between a 57 or 31 bus traveling west and the same line traveling east. Let's say I didn't have to use a bus. My trip was from my office at 59 and Lex to say 57 and 8th Broadway. I could use my card to the 59/Lex station, travel on the W train, leave the system, make a purcahse and immediately re-enter the system. I should be able to do the same when a bus is involved.
Based on the number of times I see buses with the wrong destination shown on the signs, I'm not sure I believe that the MTA has a very reliable way of detecting which way a bus is going on its route.
David,
In reference to the buses with the incorrect destination signs,
my wife is a subscriber to the "Mail 'n Ride" Metro Card for persons
with disabilities. What fun it is reading her monthly statements.
Some examples, "Out Of Service", fare collected; "Next Bus Please"
[will admit, the regulars see her and stop, even when their running
light to fill service gaps]; Opposing direction of which she is
traveling; Jackie Gleason CNG Depot, that's OK, the bus is from that
depot. Several years ago, they read Walnut Depot Bronx on a Brooklyn
Bus Route, she boarded in Queens. [B61 Long Island City to Red Hook].
These boards should be interesting reading, when "Mail 'n Ride" comes
available to all riders. >G<
:-) Sparky
My favorite destination sign reading is "Not In Service" alternating with "Express". =)
Mine is "NOT IN SERVICE" followed by "WELCOME ABOARD!"
More appropriate would be NOT IN SERVICE and LIMITED STOPS.
An express ride to nowhere... MTA, going no way!
The destinations, I mentioned are what has appeared on the Mrs.
Mail-Ride statements. The cutest that comes to mind on an actual
sighting recently is a B-61 in Brooklyn with a S-61 destination
on an RTS.
:-) Sparky
I have a MetroCard for persons with disabilities. And I do use if Verry Often,I tend to just use the Pay Per Ride since I use the Express Bus ALOT doing the off peak hours and I often transfer from a Express Bus to a Local Bus(Exemple, X51 to M16)
I've traveled with people with those cards and we once took a Madison Avenue bus to the M86 to the M7 because we were running an errand before going somewhere else. The M7 driver let my companion on without any questions when the INVALID CARD message came up.
Whenever you get a paper transfer from a bus it tends to have the direction printed on it, and 9/10 times it's correct.
Well the vendor is doing some changes to the software as we speak, maybe it has to do with you situation, but then maybe not.
I heard at least one change has to do with "transfers".
Mr rt__:^)
Once a card has been used, you have to wait 18 minutes before you can use it again. The rule of thumb when one uses an unlimited card.
>>> I could use my card to the 59/Lex station, travel on the W train, leave the system, make a purcahse and immediately re-enter the system. I should be able to do the same when a bus is involved. <<<
You also should be able to get off the bus one stop from where you got on to buy a newspaper and get on the next bus going in the same direction. The problem seems to be in how the system identifies the location of the fare box or turnstile. With turnstiles it is easy since they are stationary and can be associated with one physical location, but it appears they identify the bus fare box only by the line it is on, not the direction or the specific bus. Therefore the 18 minute restriction is by line. For most flexibility, it really should be by the individual bus.
Tom
Not true. The card may be used again within 18 minutes, just not on the same bus route or at the same subway station.
Piggo: Did you explain the situation to the driver? I once did (actually, I had transferred from an M104 to another M104 in the same direction, IIRC because the a/c wasn't working well on the first one or something like that) and he let me board. The point of the lockout is to prevent multiple people from riding on the same unlimited card at the same time; if you're traveling alone, it's a pretty safe bet that the earlier dip was yours as well.
David,
Yes, I have had zero luck with the B/O's on the 57 Street run. You make a good point, if a person is traveling alone, the first dip most likely is yours. But I have tried to explain the situation and I have gotten no sympathy. I make this trip 2 or 3 times a week, so I am pretty expienced with it now. I often make a point to stop and eat lunch before getting back on the bus, or more often I just walk one way. But if I am in hurry, I get agrivated, like today!
I always carry a value card with 3 to 1.50 on it just in case my unlimited has a problem. Hay I can carry that spare card for a year & if I never use it I can ask the Station Agent to move the money to another card & start the clock again.
Mr rt__:^)
>> I always carry a value card with 3 to 1.50 on it just in case my unlimited has a problem. Hay I can carry that spare card for a year & if I never use it I can ask the Station Agent to move the money to another card & start the clock again. <<
I always do that anyway even though I don't usually use unlimited cards. Right now I think I have three $1.50 cards in my pocket just in case. If something goes wrong, I'm not about to start a fight with the driver or turnstile, especially if I'm in a hurry. I don't actually buy $1.50 cards either-- I just put a $15 card aside when it gets to $1.50. It's easier to call the MTA and have it mail me a $1.50 card when an error occurs (another way I get $1.50 cards).
The MetroCard system may be too intelligent for this, but what happens if you try to make the card forget about your earlier M57 ride by swiping somewhere else in the interim? (Wait for an M11, get on, dip, and get right back off.)
I think that would work. And I do actually go up 10th a few blocks. The only problem is that the M11 is not the most frequent bus in the system, by the time an M11 came, I most likely would be clear of the 18 window. There is definately something in the Metrocard system that allows that to work. I remember a couple of years ago, the "swippers" I would see around the Port Authority bus terminal would pass a card (or two) through the fare box of an M42 and not get on. I once asked a guy what was he doing, he repied that he was "clearing the card" so he could get more swips.
With a pay-per-ride card, you can only use it up to 4 times at a time. After that it has 4 transfers on it. It can not be used again at the subway until either the transfers expire (in 2 hours). Or the transfers are used on the bus. Except for Lexington 59 and 63 Streets and Court and Court House Squares, there are no subway-tosubway transfers.
Huh?
I can use a pay-per-ride card for 1 to 4 fares in a subway station, go to another station in 2 minutes, and use it again. I get charged again, but I can use it.
Here's my question:
Let's say you do just that: four swipes at one station followed by one swipe at a different station.
Then you dip the same card on a bus. Does it beep four times or just once? That is, does your single transfer cancel out the four transfers you had earned a few minutes earlier?
I'm not willing to spend the money to try it, but I'm sure it beeps only once.
I've only used the multi-transfer feature once, and I didn't need it. After paying both of our fares on my card, I escorted an out-of-towner to where she was staying (I guarantee she would have gotten lost otherwise, and this was in Morningside Heights around midnight). Then I got on the bus to take me home. Nobody else got on with me, so nobody got to claim that free ride.
If you use a $15 (Pay-per-ride) card and swipe it once at 4 stations in 18 minutes,you will have used 4 rides and have 4 transfers on the card. Go to a bus and dip it once in the farebox, you will use all 4 transfers at once. And it will only beep once. The message would say all 4 transfers were used.
The only time I used the multi-transfer (see my other post), the bus farebox beeped twice.
Because it's designed for four folks to travel on one value card (they would be entitled to four transfers).
Mr rt__:^)
With a pay-per-ride card you can do that.
You can't do that with an unlimited card.
Remember there are 2 kinds of metrocards!
I tested out the theory before. The card apparently stores the last TWO uses. In order to erase the M57 ride, you have to use the card in two different places, and BOTH stored locations have the eighteen minute rule apply.
A pay-per-ride card (eg $3 or $15 card) can be used again during the 18 minutes period. But with an unlimited card, you have to 18 minutes before you can use it again.
Nope. You are definitely wrong. The 18-minute lockout applies only at the same station or on the same bus route. See the official Conditions of Use. I have used Fun Passes twice in 18 minutes on many occasions and they've only been rejected when I inadvertently try to break this rule.
To confirm what you say, I tried an experiment once down on Wall St where it's a 1 minute walk from the J/M/Z to the 1/2. I used it twice within 2 minutes (in different stations).
You should have given it a real workout: 1/2 Wall to J/M/Z Broad to 4/5 Wall to N/R Rector to E WTC -- all within 18 minutes.
With unlimited cards you have to wait 18 minutes before it can be used again. Simple as that.
With pay-per-ride cards, The cards that are first bought for $3 or $15 You can use it 4 times in the 18 minute period. However you would not be able to use it again a 5th time. The turnstile would say EXCEDED TRANSFER LIMIT. The card will not work again at a turnstile until either the 4 transfers expire after 2 hours or you use the card to get on a bus.
Call your cards by their proper names.
Once again, that is incorrect. The 18-minute lockout only applies at the same subway station or on the same bus route. An unlimited card can be used immediately at any other subway station or on any other bus route.
I gave a citation from the MTA web site. I reported my own experiences. I'm afraid that you are misinformed.
I work for TA. I've worked in the booth daily for 8 years (22 years over all) explaining to customers what a MetroCard does and doesn't do. I've explaned to countless people that when a card says JUST USED at a turnstile, it was used and they have to wait 18 minutes before using it again. Sometimes after I have a customer just used an unlimited fare at a turnstile but still can't get in, I tell them to try the card again at the agent operated T/S. When they use their card at that T/S, I hit the button in the booth. They are allowed to go in and they think the card worked. You might have been one of my customers.
I can confirm that I have also used a Fun Pass twice within 2 minutes AT DIFFERENT stations. I used it at Broad St JMZ and immediately then at Wall St 1/2.
I did not need assistance from anyone.
You sure it was a fun pass and not a pay-per-ride card?
I've performed similar experiments and I'm 100% sure they were with Fun Passes.
I'll be Fun Passing again on Monday. If I get a chance, I'll test it again and report the details of the experiment.
But the MTA web site is crystal clear on the matter: there is an 18-minute lockout at the same subway station or on the same bus route. That's it.
I'm a retired employee and I believe the same 18 minute lockout applies to me also. If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't apply to active employees in the performance of their duties. Can you imagine RCIs or MMIs attempting to report to an emergency and having to wait the 18 minutes to respond?
Yours truly,
Bob
If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't apply to active employees in the performance of their duties.
It does, only it's shorter.
And I can't see how an employee Metrocard could affect an emergency. An employee who has to serve an emergency either has a set of keys or is with someone who does.
You're probably right. I've gotten too wraped up in this high-tech world of ours that I've forgotten about the "old days" not too long ago when all you did was show your pass to the Railroad Clerk and either walk through or get buzzed through the exit gate. Thanks for shaking the cobwebs out of my head.
Bob
Once, a Transit Police officer overheard me telling the person I was traveling with that we should just exit the subway at 3rd Avenue on the 2 and 5 and cross over on the street instead of riding the train further into the Bronx in the interest of time. As soon as we passed through the turnstile, the police officer told us we could go to Intervale and cross over free and then swiped us both in on his card without any delay. While it might have cost 3 dollars to cross over at 3rd, we wouldn't have had to wait for an outbound train and then who knows how long for an inbound one.
"You sure it was a fun pass and not a pay-per-ride card?"
Absolutely 100% sure. It was a deliberate experiment in response to the last time this came up on this board. I knew it was at no cost to me because I already had a need for three legitimate rides that day.
What we have here is a failure to communicate. David is stating the fact that the 18 minute lock out is limited to the same station or bus route. As a station agent, you are dealing with people who may have inadvertaly swiped the card, or got a "Swipe again at this turnstyle" and move to a different turnstyle. In effect you are both correct. Being in one station, you will see the 18 minute lock out. But if you move from one station to a different station, the same unlimited card can work WITHIN the 18 minute window.
When Metrocard came out, the 18 minute lock out applied to ALL stations. So at one time it was correct that the unlimited could only be used every 18 minutes, ANYWHERE on the system.
I tested it out today. I used a brand new Fun Pass at 86th Street on the 1/2 at 9:26am. Then at about 9:40am, or perhaps a few minutes earlier, I used the same Fun Pass on an M72.
This morning a NJT Train has Derailed and has effected service in both Directions. Does anyone have more on the story?
Yeah, check out this posting.
Mark
Well I was going to take a Midtown train to Summit but all trains out of Penn on the Morris and Essex were canceled. Taking PATH to Newark for the 70 bus I noticed the train, the loco was half off the tracks, it looked like a real mess but it could've been worse.
LOL, your Big NJT trip got canceled? Bummer.
Well I still got to go to the mall, although by bus and PATH.
Well I'm gonna try again with NJT trains, though I don't wanna go back to Short Hills, maybe I'll go to Livingston mall.
Also their trains charge peak fare in BOTH directions in AM and PM rush unlike the MTA which is only in peak direction only, so it is way more expensive than the bus.
You can get to Garden State Plaza by train too - take the Main/Bergen County line from Hoboken to Ridgewood, then you'll have to walk a couple blocks to Van Neste Square and get the #175 bus to the Plaza.
It is actually only a block from the train station to Van Neste Square. You can get the 175 bus at the Glen Rock Boro Hall (Bergen Line) Station also. It might save a few minutes. But considering where QTrainDash7 is coming from, it is faster for him to use the route he uses now, buses from GWBT. I took the 175 from end to end, it becomes a tiresome trip after awhile, especially after dark.
This Map shows the Flatbush Avenue car (not a trolley yet) turning away at Kings Highway and running along such to Coney Island Avenue (or beyond). Was this ever the case or is this another situation of a planned line? Also what about the trolley line shown along Clove Road (for those of you who know what that is)?
Saw #1431-32-33-34-1438 on the middle track at Fordham Rd Station with brand new trucks also saw R142A #7661-7665 at Pelham Parkway Station testing on the middle track & i rode #2321-2325/#2311-2316 on #2 line today.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Amtrak Chief: Rail Line Will Fold Without Loan
Reuters
WASHINGTON (June 6) - Amtrak's President, David Gunn, warns the financially ailing passenger rail service will have to shut down next month unless it gets a $200 million loan in the next three weeks, the Washington Post reported Thursday.
"If we can't borrow $200 million, we can't make it through this fiscal year," Gunn said. "We must have a loan in place by the end of this month."
Gunn was quoted as saying that any shutdown would involve the whole system -- not just the long-distance trains but "all of them."
Gunn said in an interview he was optimistic that he could negotiate a short-term loan, using as collateral $200 million from the expected federal appropriation at the beginning of the fiscal year Oct. 1.
The United States' only city-to-city passenger rail service operator, Amtrak, is awash in debt and lost $1.1 billion in 2001.
Gunn also said he plans to propose a massive reorganization of Amtrak management to the Amtrak board of directors on Thursday, the Post reported.
Gunn told the paper his new organizational plan will eliminate separate business units set up in Philadelphia to run the Northeast Corridor, in Chicago to run long-distance trains, and in Oakland, Calif., to run service on the West Coast.
He added that he would propose reducing the number of "vice president" titles in the company from 84 to about 20.
06/06/02 00:32 ET
I've got an idea. How about lowering the fares so it's cheaper than the airlines. It costs almost as much to take the train than the plane.
As long as the train fare is what it is and the ridership is staying steady -- or better yet, GROWING -- there is NO need to lower the fares.
Economics -- supply and demand.
If Amtrak stops running what happens to Penn station? Will it close? Man that would be an even bigger nightmere for LIRR riders.
How about lowering the fares so it's cheaper than the airlines.
How about lowering the wages of the employees, the prices it pays for fuel and electricity, not to mention the prices of rails and the locos and coaches?
Employ payroll is the biggest cost to any company, so lower pay could save money, but no existing employee would allow it for themselves.
And exactly how would you lower energy, rail and loco prices? That makes absolutely no sense. I can't go to a store and make them lower the price of an item for me, what makes you think Amtrak can do it? Competition among rail equipment manufacturers probably has already made them have reasonable prices on their products.
And exactly how would you lower energy, rail and loco prices? That makes absolutely no sense.
I don't think KMA was being serious, he was only pointing out the stupidity of Redbirds Rule with regard to lowering Amtrak rates.
Yes, but a lower fare would attract more ridership. Never mind airlines for a moment. To get from NY to Albany, for example, is at least $12 more expensive each way by Amtrak then by Adirondak Trailways. There is only a half hour time difference, and the bus terminal is much closer to where people actually want to go than the train station.
The annoying thing is, about 5 years ago the fares for bus and train were much closer together.
As one who's routinely done both, that $12.00 extra is immeasurably WORTH it for the sanity and lack of "bus smell" upon arrival on either end. Walking around on the train, hitting the cafe car and having a brewski in peace is something you just can't do on the bus. And no playing "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" either. Sure I wish the train was cheaper, but I'll pay whatever the price to avoid the bus.
And the trainride is nice too, even if it isn't in the cab like it used to be. :)
Yes, but a lower fare would attract more ridership.
How would that help Amtrak if they can't be solvent at their current fares?
HEY! It worked for NASDAQ, didn't it? :)
10 people buying $30 tickets is a bit more than 6 people buying $42 tickets, or 1 person buying a $100 ticket. I know I just made the numbers up with no factual basis but I had to illustrate that there are a lot of people out there who are so cheap they will sacrifice comfort for cash. Amtrak is not like the subway, there are other ways of getting around and people tend to use them when the price difference becomes too great. The price has steadily increased over the past few years, less than a decade ago it was about $15 from Poughkeepsie to NYP, now it's $28 off peak!
Also, more people on the trains means more people going to the cafe car, and at $2.75 for a hot dog you know they're making a decent chunk of revenue there!
It costs money for AmTrak to handle all of these people. If the revenues don't exceed the expenditures, it doesn't matter what you charge.
IMO, I think it is redundant for Mr. Gunn to threaten a systemwide closure of Amtrak within the next month during a Congressional election year. If a vital link that takes people to areas of the country that are either too cumbersome or impossible for people to get to by air (or even road) is lost, it can be assured that heads are going to roll in Washington. Then again, he is probably trying to regain their attention admist all the discussion regarding the airline situation (and the fact that airports have a realistic chance of having the shut their doors if they don't meet new security measures).
Judging from the news articles at hand, Amtrak is in a WOS right now, and it's state confirms people's suspicions that a reorganization is in order. I mean, how is it that key rail operation offices are dispersed thousands of miles apart, when the trend among transit systems today is to consolidate operations so that orders and the like can be filtered down within minutes?
Realistically, long distance service cannot compete on a daily basis outside of tourist travel (especially sans high-speed service). Congress has to bite the bullet and start getting service between major city centers 1000 miles apart and less (Chicago-DC, NY-Jacksonville, etc.) to a point where it should not take more than 18 hrs to travel in between. The Acela idea is good (albeit expensive), and must be expanded among heavily traveled corridors. It shouldn't be subject to beureaucratic bickering, especially of the type of debate raging over the rail-security bill still in committee.
I just read a story in Yahoo that all Amtrak service may end next month if the company doesn't receive some money fast.
Here is the URL to the story
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20020606/ap_on_bi_ge/amtrak
Any comments?
Not to worried out here in California, as the state will keep our intercity trains running -- they already pay most, if not all, of the costs of doing so.
Not to [sic] worried out here in California, as the state will keep our intercity trains running -- they already pay most, if not all, of the costs of doing so.
You never know.
Who owns the equipment and the real estate? Amtrak or the State?
Whose payroll covers the operating personnel? Amtrak or the State?
If both the equipment and the payroll belong to Amtrak, continued service could depend on Amtrak's overall financial condition. The State couldn't simply take the equipment and real estate and press-gang the workers so that it could run the trains itself. Depending on Amtrak's situation, it might be unable to operate even with a 100% subsidy from the State.
I see Gunn plans to hold the Northeast Corridor hostage to get some money for the system as a whole. Doesn't he understand that the only service most of Congress wants to provide in the Northeast is IRS audits?
If it DOES come to that, I sure hope they do their layups and lockouts on the main line. Maybe tear up some rail too just to be sure. Then perhaps we'd see CSX turn tail and work FOR Amtrak funding instead of against it (CSX's motto, "get those pesky Amtraks out of the way, they're holding up our intermodals") ...
Actually, tables are turning. CSX has not been dispatching LSL satisfactorily, but in many aspects CSX is far more positive about pax rail than they had been for a while. I just got back from a Lake Shore Ltd trip.
I think Gunn is doing the right thing. These politicians do not understand logical arguments, they seem to understand only threats. No wonder terrorists are so successful. If he gets some $ for the system as a whole, go Gunn.
Yes, some of the NEC needs to get torn up. Then maybe these politicians will take pax rail seriously once they see the disruption it causes. Whether it is worth the dent in Amtrak's market share, I don't know.
I am not sure about his idea that tearing up the business sectors would solve the problem. After all, a railroad is not a transit and not all market segments are the same. However, having policy decisions made at the head office is probably a good thing.
Nobody to blame but the feds. Despie its sickly early years and some of the hangovers that remain, especially chronically and excessively late trains in some areas ridership held up and in some cases increased. I remember the lateness in the early days plus hot cars in summer, cold or stifling in winter, etc too well. Under those conditions you'd think it would have died by 1974-75 or so. Now those of us with the evil habit of smoking have pretty much been ruled if on nearly all trains, that doesn't change things. The summary is there is a demand for the service, people will pay good money to ride trains, it is a nice way to travel, like nearly all passenger service it loses money, it creates a lot of employment....yet it gets crumbs. Just compare last September's handouts...what the airlines got outright and what Amtrak hasn't been able to get...despite the fact that it was there when people couldn't or wouldn't fly.I think Greyhound is profitable but ride one long distance and you'll know why. Talk about sardine cans.
Well no matter what happens to the rest of the Amtrak trains, the busy corridors (NEC/Empire Corridor, Chicago-Detroit, L.A.-San Diego) will live on. NEC was the only true money maker for Amtrak, and ridership went up on the Chicago-Detriot and L.A.-San Diego lines, so it's safe to say those will stick around as their own continuing operating entities.
If Amtrak really runs out of money, there could be short term disruptions (months?) until they reorganize into a smaller entity that only runs the routes that are profitable, break-even, or sufficiently subsidized by the states.
Pass imediate eminent domain on NYP and keep the city running.
AMTK would likely pull all of its assets (locomotives and cars) to Philidelphia and Chicago where they would be impounded by creditors.
Shame, cause it is such a piddling little sum that they need to be fully subsidized.
Elias
Yes . piddling indeed. Especially when you consider all the stupid causes that billions of dollars have been poured into and created employment/ or a real economic future for few.I don't mean to step on anybod's toes..but a lot of idiotic social programs, studies that reverse opinions ten years later, and transplanting WOLVES to livestock and game country where the only people who want them are a handful doing their silly studies. They had a happy home and future where they wre taken from. Think of all the real employment created by Amtrak plus how many people do benefit from its services, even if a small minority compared to other modes.Sounds like a small price to pay in subsidies.
Well no matter what happens to the rest of the Amtrak trains, the busy corridors (NEC/Empire Corridor, Chicago-Detroit, L.A.-San Diego) will live on. NEC was the only true money maker for Amtrak, and ridership went up on the Chicago-Detriot and L.A.-San Diego lines, so it's safe to say those will stick around as their own continuing operating entities.
I heard from www.trains.com (a very reliable news source for railroads across the continent) that if AMTRAK stops service, the NEC won't be spared.
What will happen then?
The funny thing is, if AMTRAK has $1.2 billion and $205 million on LOANS for Congress, when will it all get paid back? Will AMTRAK be on loans all its life?
in a word YES. passenger transport is labor and capital intensive. If you think it is profitable when fully acconted, please invest in Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff or for that matter, United or US Air. I just think ATK should invite the Entire Congress on one of the Junkets like the regular trips to the Greenbrier but let CSX think its a 'regular' ATK train. After the delays for coal drags, some of them might get a clue. Version two shut down ONLY the NEC, and CANCEL all passes for politicians who have ever voted against ATK funding.
Anyone who claims NEC makes money doesn't understand capital expenses.
NEC makes money, but only on paper. Do any of you have any idea how much money PRR invested in the right of way, how much money was poured into the system in the late 1970s to early 1980s with the massive upgrade programme? Acela's BOS-NYP run will make decent $ in the next 20 years, but that's because we just poured $3bn into that route. If we pour $3bn into CHI-DTW, or even CHI-STL, we can make that sort of money. But somenoe has to pay for the capital.
I'd love to be pulling a train CHI-STL. I might even call it "The Spirit of Saint Louis".
AEM7
Couldn't agree more actually ... and yeah, the LSL is the local run through here (I'm west of Smallbany) ... the thing about ripping/blocking the track was more of a personal thing about how "host railroads" behave and companies like CSX that screw Amtrak repeatedly coast to coast USE the NEC as their own main line for a portion of the east coast. Since the host railroad is Amtrak there, shutting it down if Amtrak does would be the slap across the face with a wet herring that CSX needs to realize that the saw cuts both ways. They sure don't seem to get the point in their long history of "get Amtrak out of the way of the UPS train."
But I was just gassing off. :)
CSX Intermodals average speeds as low as 22 mph. They aren't getting in the way of anything.
CSX tells their customers that the UPS trains would move a LOT faster if Amtrak wasn't in the way. You've been around railroading for a while. You know how truth is the first thing that gets 12-9'ed. :)
Compare the CSX B&O mainline w/ the competing CR/NS PRR main just 30-50 miles north. The B&O main has max speed 50mph, passenger, all the way from Brunswick MD to Pittsburgh PA, many places less. The entire sand patch grade is restricted for 25/20 mph for all rains up and down. The balast is extremely light and the line has many many tight curves. The CR route has heavy rail and balast w/ 50/60 mph freight speeds and 80 mph speeds along the whole route. Heavy balast and rail, 40 mph on the grade. 3 main line tracks along he grade. Better curves and cab signals and, in the CR/NS age have been extended all the way to Cleveland. The line from CP-PENN to CR-ROCHESTER is 3/4 track, 80mph and is the equilivent to a Freight NEC. The CSX mail line accross the river is NOTHING like that. Amtrak trains that run on NS trackage (like Train 41) get priority and run ON TIME. In fact, NS puts their own intermodal trailers on these trains cause they know they can make them run on time.
Well, for what it's worth, CSX country along the Chicago line is starting to slow down in keeping with tradition. Ask folks who do the Lake Shore Line how much they like waiting for coalers and UPS trains to go past. I figure another year or two of deterioration should have CSX putting them on the ground as often as they do down sooth. :)
Hey, lets get our facts straight:
Train #41 runs CSX (ex-B&O) from Pittsburgh, PA to Chicago, IL. Train #41 is never on time, but usually because of the CSX portion. Particularly on the section west of Akron, OH, because the CSX main is congested, the train gets delayed. This isn't due to CSX's unwillingness to give it priority. It's because CSX simply doesn't have enough capacity.
Train #43 runs NS (ex-PRR) from Harrisburg, PA to Cleveland, OH. Train #43 usually hits a small delay at Harrisburg, but is usually OK all the way. NS likes the trani enough to trust them with its trailers. Pity that Amtrak hadn't shifted all the NYP-CHI riders from #49 to #43.
Train #49 runs CSX (ex-NYC) from New York, NY to Cleveland, OH. I noticed that performance had been worse since CSX took over from Conrail, but that's like saying if I became CEO of BNSF, I wouldn't do a better job than Rob Krebs.
CSX does not dispatch well, but strategically I don't think they actually want the Amtraks out. If NS/Amtrak works out a deal where all pax trains will be rerouted away from CSX (i.e. Lake Shore Ltd would run via NEC to NYP and then westwards via PHL and NS main over the mountain) I think CSX would be yelling. And anyway all the freight revenue is over the NS main and that is really all that matters. People in upstate New York will get screwed but they only have CSX to blame.
AEM7
Of course, this story doesn't even merit a bleep on the Chicago Tribune's site, even though Chicago is a hub for God-knows-how-many (a dozen or so?) Amtrak routes. The Trib is firmly in John McCain's camp when it comes to Amtrak funding, even though they've been relentlessly crusading for the expansion of O'Hare.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Does this seem like a little grandstanding to anyone besides me? I really can't see Amtrak shutting all operations in 30 days.
It is sort of like when they look to do a fare hike in NYC. Let out an early press release that the MTA Board will be looking at raising the fare to $75.00 per ride. Then announce that, through the efforts of the management, the fire hike will simply be 25 cents.
Chip
Actually, I hope it does shut down, just so watch how fast those Republicans in Washington realize their mistake. It'll be like when they shut down the government under Gingrich: it was their Republican constituents who made the obscene phone calls over the inconvenience they'd been put to.
And if they do, I'd push for the Democrats to suspend the Federal subsidy to the DC system. Let all those commuting Republican congressmen enjoy the freeways.
As a practical matter, were I a NYC Democrat in Washington, I'd forever be warring against the DC Metro as a tactic for shaking loose more Fed money for the subways.
Goody, Penn station will have to close and we'll have a sudden upsurge of LIRR service to Flatbush, Hunterspoint and Long Island City. The P train will run from Jamaica to Penn Station nonstop via the Jamaica Avenue El, Christie st and W4th with 10 car R-32s.
Well, at least I presume that will happen since that was the plan for during the strike!
If Amtrak closes I'm sure Pataki will get an emergency court order keeping Penn Station open by having the Amtrak operating personnel report to the MTA.
This would be different from a strike in that the personnel would be willling to work.
I was on the F train today and changed at Delancey for the J downtown. I see that there's a lot of construction happening on the downtown platform. I noticed that some of the platform wall has been broken through, revealing platform space and another, older platform wall behind it.
I know that this station dates back to the pre-Dual Contracts era and used to be called "Delancey Street." I was hoping to see some old "Delancey Street" signs or tablets but didn't notice any.
Anyone have any info on what's being done at this station? Looks like a lot of work is going on.
That "cement block" wall was put up in 1989, when they did a sort of renovation. The old wall behind was the original wall that used to be exposed. There were a bunch of stairways along that wall. So the old wall is a stairway width behind the new wall. Where the current wall is now, they used to have "jail" type bars along that whole wall closing off the stairways where the current wall is now, and it was a real mess because they used to store all kinds of junk there.
The original wall is the IRT type "brick" tiles, but there were no mosaics or name tablets. I don't know when the "jail" bars went up there, but before 1989 they simply had the standard black metal "Essex" signs hanging every so many feet on the bars.
They are currently rehabbing the station, but I have no idea what they have planned. I wonder if the old trolly station will be covered from view after all these years on the opposite side. I've seen photos of the old trolly station in use and it had the same IRT type brick tiles like the wall they are currently uncovering on the Broad ST bound side.
Does anyone know what the original layout of the old Essex station was? I wonder if it was a two track "wall" platform station, or was it a two track "island" platform. I'm sure the original layout is no the three track, one wall, one island arrangement we have at Essex today.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/willb.html
Okay then, so the wall platform was part of the original station (that's what I figured because the original tiles on the wall platform were like those in the trolly station (see link in post above). The island platfrom looks like it was added later when they got rid of the other two platforms Essex had and turned it from a two track terminal with three platforms, into a three track through station with two platforms. The place where the current island platform is now looks like it was where one of the original tracks were, and where the center track is, is where the original island platform was.
The station complex (BMT and IND) is being rehabbed. I don't really have any more information than that.
The BMT station was never called Delancey Street, since the BMT runs along Delancey itself. It's the IND station which is called Delancey; the IND runs along Essex.
I also noticed a bit of the old wall there a few days ago.
I once saw a book that contained a BRT system map pre-Dual Contracts. The station now called Essex Street was then called Delancey Street. It was the BRT terminal in Manhattan after service began over the Willie B by BRT trains. It was only after service extended along Delancey Street to Bowery and Canal that the name was changed to Essex Street. I'm certain of this.
I've seen that myself actually, but I forgot where. I remember seein the station called Delancy when it was the terminal. For the life of me and cam't remember where.
I've seen that myself actually, but I forgot where. I remember seein the station called Delancy when it was the terminal. For the life of me and cam't remember where.
Likewise! The following web page says it was initially called Manhattan Terminal:
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/history01.html
Further down that same page, we read:
"As the design of the loop progressed, the Triborough Plan of future routes and tunnel clearances was released, and the plans were later changed and the multi-level stations dropped, leaving stations at Canal St, The Bowery and Delancey Street."
Okay, this is only a reference in an article to it being called Delancey St until the loop construction began, but I believe it to be correct.
I knew I've seen it somewhere! That may not be where I saw it, but at least I don't feel like I'm going crazy. It was called Delancey at one time.
I knew I've seen it somewhere! That may not be where I saw it, but at least I don't feel like I'm going crazy. It was called Delancey at one time.
Oh, I've seen better instances than that one too, GP38, but I didn't have much time to find them. I knew you were right, so I posted what I could find.
I've seen that myself actually, but I forgot where. I remember seein the station called Delancy when it was the terminal. For the life of me and cam't remember where.
See "A History of the NYC Subway System: Rapid Transit in Brooklyn" by Cunningham/Dehart, pages 29 (a map of the BRT from 1900 - 1910), page 30 (the description of the Centre St Loop under the Triborough Plan mentions "The route would begin at the BRT Delancey Street EL terminal ...") and page 32 (a description of the same route under the Dual Contracts).
People really do read my articles :) I am hoping to start another one really soon now.
--Mark
People really do read my articles :) I am hoping to start another one really soon now.
Please do, Mark! Your articles are informative and high quality!
Further down that same page, we read:
"As the design of the loop progressed, the Triborough Plan of future routes and tunnel clearances was released, and the plans were later changed and the multi-level stations dropped, leaving stations at Canal St, The Bowery and Delancey Street."
Here is the map I have of the Triborough Plan - maybe this helps
Triborough Route
Interesting. De Kalb without the Brighton or Sea Beach Lines, but with a Lafayette Av Line! That would've been really wierd!
Is it this map?
BRT Map
That platform was rehabbed in 1989. They're doing it again. And Chambers St. continues to remain in decrepit condition.
It really makes you wonder how some stations get priority over others. Chambers really needs repairs. The pillars are full of bullet holes with the bullets still inside some! The station's tile is almost completely yellow and the lighting is extremely poor. Something had better be done.
A huge skyscraper eyed for Ground Zero -- and why it might soar
by Blair Kamin, Chicago Tribune architecture critic.
[shameless plug for my site]
Probably best to go here for my own comments and to post your response, since this is a bit off-topic for SubTalk, but I know there's a lot of people here with a strong interest in what happens to the WTC site.
[/shameless plug for my site]
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
I've registered for the Times and no one else. The LA Times recently started requiring it so I've stopped reading them. The Sun-Times does not make you register -- and they got Ebert.
So, David, precis it, unfair-use it.
They should be rebuilt. I loved those buildings.
Here here! I love buildings that are just as wide at the top as they are at the bottom. Coming to a point is a waste of real estate.
Here here! I love buildings that are just as wide at the top as they are at the bottom. Coming to a point is a waste of real estate.
By that logic, the Woolworth Building, the Empire State Building, and the Chrysler Building never should have been built.
New York's setback laws were actually written to avoid repeats of monstrosities like the Equitable Building, which was as wide at the top as at the bottom. Unfortunately, beginning in the 1960's, developers were able to side-step the setback laws by incorporating barren plazas into their designs, but I believe even that loophole has been closed now.
-- David
Chicago, IL
New York's setback laws were actually written to avoid repeats of monstrosities like the Equitable Building
Setbacks also make it more comfortable for pedestrians when it's blowing a gale - they absorb much of the magnifying effect of tall buildings on air movement.
New York's setback laws were actually written to avoid repeats of monstrosities like the Equitable Building, which was as wide at the top as at the bottom
The Twin Towers were as wide at the top as they were at the bottom.....
And, architecturally, they were monstrosities. Although I, like all who believe in freedom, lament the way in which the Towers were brought down, I do not lament the opportunity which we now have to build a more graceful structure or structures on that site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's what I loved about 'em.
I'd like to see a building as tall as the towers were built there, but it won't happen for several reasons:
1. Nobody will work in it. I won't work in any building they put up on that site, even if it's on the ground floor.
2. It's cheaper to build numerous smaller buildings than one large one.
3. The market won't support it. Many of the former WTC tenants have relocated permanently to midtown or New Jersey. Not enough new ones can replace them.
4. The WTC towers were built in a different era where technology was king and bragging rights were important. Today, economic & safety issues are supreme.
The more I think about it, the more in favor I am of another tall building on the WTC site. I believe the towers' actual footprints should be incorporated into whatever memorial gets built there, but even with the block bounded by West, Fulton, Greenwich, and Liberty Streets off-limits to development, there is still plenty of space along the northern and eastern edges of the site for one or more tall skyscrapers.
1. Nobody will work in it. I won't work in any building they put up on that site, even if it's on the ground floor.
That may appliy to you, but it won't apply to everybody else. 15 years from now, assuming there's new buildings on that site in one form or another, would you turn down a great job offer just because the company is located on that site? Do you think everybody else would?
2. It's cheaper to build numerous smaller buildings than one large one.
If it weren't profitable to build super-tall buildings, then there's plenty of other tall buildings that never would have been built. Last I heard, the Sears Tower, Hancock Center, and the Empire State Building all manage to turn nice profits for their respective owners.
3. The market won't support it. Many of the former WTC tenants have relocated permanently to midtown or New Jersey. Not enough new ones can replace them.
That may be true today, but will it be true ten or fifteen years from now? Even in this staggering economy, Manhattan remains among the most expensive real estate in the world. If somebody wants to build a million square feet of office space on a 100,000 square foot site, the only way to go is up. The economy will eventually rebound, and tenants will again be paying outrageous rents for office space in lower Manhattan.
4. The WTC towers were built in a different era where technology was king and bragging rights were important. Today, economic & safety issues are supreme.
In other words, we've lost our balls. There's nothing about a tall skyscraper that would necessarily preclude economy and safety issues. Tall skyscrapers have made economic sense in the past, and I don't think that will change in the long-term future. We've learned a great deal about safety issues since 9/11, and I believe those lessons can be incorporated into new designs without making tall buildings unprofitable.
I think a tall building on the WTC site would be appropriate for several reasons:
1) It would fill the void left by the WTC's demise. I'm not arguing for the reconstruction of the original design (see my response to TonyR40M), but I think New York needs something to serve as a visual anchor for the lower Manhattan skyline in the way the WTC did. As Blair Kamin points out in his article, lower Manhattan is now like a bunch of foothills that don't lead up to any mountains.
2) I don't think we should build a tall skyscraper just to spite a bunch of religious fanatics living in caves, but I think it would be a symbolic gesture of healing and determination. When entire cities like London and Chicago burnt down, they weren't rebuilt exactly the way they were before, but were rebuilt even more spectacularly. A similar opportunity exists here, and it would be a shame to waste that.
3) Any new skyscraper wouldn't necessarily be subject to the same fate as the WTC. We are now learning that there were many design facotrs of the WTC that made them vulnerable to a catastrophic collapse due to intense fires. We also know that our airports and airlines had flaws that made them vulnerable to terrorist hijackings. Now that those flaws have been made obvious to us, they can be corrected.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think the Empire State Building has not been doing marvelousely as of late. Didn't Trump and some other guy buy it for $40 Mil? Heck, if you made more than $10-Mil a year, you could probably afford to live in the whole thing and pay the mortgage (but probably not the elec bill).
Op Transit: How about opening up a hot air balloon shuttle between the ESB airship mast and the airports ;)
Well, the Empire State Building is a unique case because it has relatively small and inflexible floor plans, which makes it unsuitable for the vast cubicle farms that most large corporations love. However, it's home to many smaller companies that don't require multiple large floors, and it's able to compensate economically because of its venerable landmark status. I'm sure there's a few tenants who would pay almost any dollar amount just to be located in that building.
If the Empire State Building ever did cease to remain profitable as an office building, I'm sure it could be converted to residential use and do quite well. That's actually been a fairly common pattern here in Chicago, where older landmark office buildings are converted to condos. The buildings' inflexiblity makes them difficult to use as modern offices, but their quaint charm insures that condo buyers will gobble them up for top dollar.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Op Transit: How about opening up a hot air balloon shuttle between the ESB airship mast and the airports ;)
There actually were helicopter shuttles to the airports from the top of the PanAm (now Met Life) building. They were stopped, however, after an accident maybe 20 years ago sent debris falling to the streets and resulted in several deaths among pedestrians.
One of the deaths was a nun who was beheaded. I know that sounds like something out of alt.jokes.tasteless, but it's really true!
Any new skyscraper wouldn't necessarily be subject to the same fate as the WTC. We are now learning that there were many design facotrs of the WTC that made them vulnerable to a catastrophic collapse due to intense fires. We also know that our airports and airlines had flaws that made them vulnerable to terrorist hijackings. Now that those flaws have been made obvious to us, they can be corrected.
Not to get too far OT, but one change I'd expect to see in future skyscrapers is dispersal of the emergency stairways. Instead of clustering them in the core, as was the case with the WTC, future buildings might have them near each corner, to the extent that's feasible from an engineering standpoint. Stairway walls are also sure to be hardened with something a bit stronger than drywall.
I agree. At the very least, we'll probably see more stairways spread further apart, not to mention seeing them built with concrete walls.
Concrete walls for stairwells (whether in the form of cast-in-place concrete or CMU blocks) are actually the norm in most modern high-rises. The Sears Tower, already under construction when the WTC was completed, has three stairwells with concrete-block walls, and they're pretty well spread throughout the building. I was shocked to learn that the WTC's stairwells only had drywall, but then, we've known since the first WTC bombing in 1993 that a number of corners were cut in the WTC's construction, especially in regards to fire safety and emergency egress. NYC actually has some of the most stringent fire codes in the country, but because the WTC was built by a multi-state agency, they figured it was exempt from the city building codes. Bad move.
Also, even before 9/11, using a reinforced concrete structure instead of steel is becomming more common due to strong advances in concrete technology. The Petronas Towers in Malaysia have a rienforced concrete structure, as do a number of other tall buildings. I'd expect to see concrete become even more common due to its superior fire resistance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I had given some thought to this. The law requires a stairway to be within 75' (?) of any place on a floor, and that stairways must be remote from each other. While all of the WTC stairways were in the core they each faced a different direction and were thus remote from each other as far as access goes.
Exits from buildings includes vertical and horizontal exits. Floors compartmentalized in this manner can serve as a save exit from the other in the event of a conventional fire. Of course nothing can stand up to a neculear bomb or its equivlient 767.
The building is required to have a fire plan and fire wardens on each floor (employees of each tenant with appropriate training will sufice) to impliment evacuation. Apparently the fire department was not supposed to send men up those stairs until the evacuation was complete. It was the responsibility of the fire wardens to manage the evacuation, and they needed all of the stairway capacity for exiting, rather than for firefighters going the other way.
Buildings of this size need their own fire departments. The WTC had more people working in it that live in the entire city of Bismarck, North Dakota! Paid firefighters (employees of the building management) should have been on duty in the building to manage fire fighting equipment and services that are part of the building. Again, there is little they could do against a nuclear attack, but management of all other situations is required.
And they need more 1:1 scale trains in the basement (jsut to stay on topic)
Elias
The building is required to have a fire plan and fire wardens on each floor (employees of each tenant with appropriate training will sufice) to impliment evacuation. Apparently the fire department was not supposed to send men up those stairs until the evacuation was complete.
On my floor (44), my boss was the fire warden. He performed his duty until the Port Authority's announcement that the emergency was located in the other tower (north) and that everyone could return to their offices. There was no emergency in our building after that, so he decided to heed the advice of the Morgan Stanley security, who ordered all their floors evacuated (The man who made this decision was killed). He was one of the last civilians to leave the 44th floor and was down to about the 12th floor when our building was hit.
All of the carefully constructed disaster emergency protocols (which we all had to practice during our frequent and annoying fire drills) collapsed.
On my floor (44), my boss was the fire warden. He performed his duty until the Port Authority's announcement that the emergency was located in the other tower (north) and that everyone could return to their offices. There was no emergency in our building after that, so he decided to heed the advice of the Morgan Stanley security, who ordered all their floors evacuated (The man who made this decision was killed). He was one of the last civilians to leave the 44th floor and was down to about the 12th floor when our building was hit.
It's hard to blame the Port Authority for asking people in the south tower to remain in their offices. No one had any way of knowing that there'd be a second plane, of course. Evacuating the south tower, had there actually been no second plane, would not have been without risks, what with falling debris and people getting in the way of emergency responders.
All of the carefully constructed disaster emergency protocols (which we all had to practice during our frequent and annoying fire drills) collapsed.
The people conducting fire drills for my company used to say that it was unnecessary to evacuate the entire building in case of fire. All we had to do was evacuate to the floor below the fire floor and remain there.
Needless to say, they don't give that advice anymore!
"The people conducting fire drills for my company used to say that it was unnecessary to evacuate the entire building in case of fire. All we had to do was evacuate to the floor below the fire floor and remain there.
Needless to say, they don't give that advice anymore! "
That was indeed the correct advice, given a NORMAL fire. For a mass disaster it is not. Clearly an airliner with 4000 tons of fuel is not going to be your normal fire.
You don't do open heart surgery on a splinter, but when it is needed, nothing else will do.
Elias
Actually. The stairwells in the Twin Towers were built a bit wider than most buildings of that time. Even though FDNY DID manage to get fire supression equipment to the point where the 1st plane had struck. They were a factor in delaying people from walking down the stairs as the buildings were on fire. Every time a firefighter would go up the stairs with their bulky equipment people would have to put their backs to the wall to allow them to go through. So in a way the firefighters were slowing down the very people they were trying to save. Im not saying they should not have gone up there in the first place. But more stairways should have been built.
Second of all. If the CORE had been built out of stronger material . It would have helped save more people. Do you guys know that the core of the building that was hit second (And first to collapse) actually survived for a few moments after its surroundings (Meaning the exterior of the building) went down?
At the very least, we'll probably see more stairways spread further apart, not to mention seeing them built with concrete walls.
I have admittedly rather limited experience in this area, but our entire complex (four buildings constructed in the late '90s, one larger one constructed about 1991-1992) have stairways at the core and the corners - the older building has two stairs in the core with one at each of the four wing ends (the building is shaped like a fat plus sign) while the somewhat smaller, newer buildings have one huge central stairway and three other stairways spaced equidistant around the perimeter. And the walls of all of them are concrete (except the central stairways in the newer buildings, which are open). So I think that approach has been around for a while now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Can someone email me a copy of the Chicago Tribune article-- who ever does will get a free trolley ride!!
Bob D.
Sent. Check your e-mail.
-- David
Chicago, IL
True but the biggest lesson learned from the WTC disaster is that you're in much more danger the higher up in the building you are. Solution: don't make buildings 110 stories. What's the matter with Silverstien's plan for 4 55 story towers? Replaces all the lost office space in the towers in a much safer and economical way.
Remember, the original Twin towers were supposed to be only 80 stories tall. Only David Rockerfeller's case of penis-envy wanting the TWO tallest buildings in the world led to the extra 30 floors being tacked on.
Actually 80 stories is not that bad, the ES Building's observation deck is at about 86 or so, and that's not too shabby. I hope whatever they build will be at least 80 stories, because then maybe they could put an observation deck, and a Windows on the WOrld type retaurant up high again there.
I don't know if any of the Subtalkers are aware of this, but AOL-Time Warner has plans to build twin 80 story towers in Columbus Circle as part of a complex. They were meant to compliment the WTC Twin Towers. If this does indeed occur, then the new WTC should and must be built bigger.
JDL
Given AOL's financial position and the economy in general, I'd be surprised to see that plan go through. Also, I suspect there'd be a great deal of NIMBY opposition to towers of that height up there. Another large proposal for Columbus Circle back in the 80's was shot down due to NIMBY concerns.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Given AOL's financial position and the economy in general, I'd be surprised to see that plan go through. Also, I suspect there'd be a great deal of NIMBY opposition to towers of that height up there. Another large proposal for Columbus Circle back in the 80's was shot down due to NIMBY concerns.
Construction's well underway on the AOL-Time Warner center. It will actually be a mixed-use development rather than entirely offices.
Really? I stand corrected then. But will it actually be twin 80-story towers, or has the project been scaled down? Who's the architect? Anyplace where I can see some renderings online?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The NIMBY oppositon in the 1980's was against a Trump plan for a 200 story building at Columbus Circle.
I think that would have been somewhat taller than Petronas.
Bob D.
I thought the 200 story proposal was by Jimmy James of Jimmy James, Inc. :-)
You obviously won't like this: The building is being designed by SOM.
Figures... The AOL of architecture firms to design AOL's headquarters.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave,
There was a picture in the NY Post about 3 weeks ago. I can't recall the date though.
JDL
Yeah, Right... AOL (aka Enron) hasn't got a pot to pee in, and they want to build twin out houses!
HA!
Heh... I'm all in favor of tall skyscrapers in NYC, but I hate AOL almost as much as I hate Wal-Mart and Disney.
I can't even trust them to run an internet service, much less build an 80-story tower or two. Imagine getting a pop-up ad everytime you try to push the elevator button... Sheesh!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I made a site visit to AOL HQ over in Virginia a few summers back. It was one of those "it's a swealtering day in the middle of summer and we're bored to tears" so someone got the building people to rig their speaking elevators to play that "Welcome!" sound whenever the doors opened.
Heh... I'm all in favor of tall skyscrapers in NYC, but I hate AOL almost as much as I hate Wal-Mart and Disney.
I totally agree with you, but I'm indifferent to Disney. Thank God for Earthlink, I love 'em. And I'm also glad we don't have a single f%^#ing Wal-fart in Atlanta.
"AOL - so easy to use, no wonder it doesn't work"
I think that the exact location of the new tower is dictated by where the bathtub is. This means that the new tower will be in the same place as the old towers.
Elias
Just out of curiousity, what are the extents of the bathtub? How far east and north does it go?
I don't necessarily agree that a new tower must be located within the existing bathtub, although it would certainly save some money. There's no reason a new bathtub couldn't be dug east of Greenwich Street. If I'm not mistaken, bedrock isn't too far below the surface no matter where you dig in Manhattan. (Compare to Chicago, where pilings must be sunk though a hundred feet of muck and clay before hitting bedrock.) Also, I believe the original reasons for digging the "bathtub" have been somewhat negated, since the Hudson River waterfront was filled in to create the landfill upon which the World Financial Center now sits.
Actually, getting back on-topic, I'd like to see the existing bathtub extended east to Church Street. Since below-grade parking is no longer a viable option for high-rises, I'd leave that whole subterranien area open, with the rebuilt PATH platforms forming the floor of a vast underground space. (The new streets and development above would form the "roof".) The Cortland IRT station would essentially then become an underground "elevated" station, with the various escalators, mezzanines, ramps, and structural members left open to view. Anybody who has been to the Westminster station on the London Underground will have a pretty good idea of what I have in mind.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think something tall should go on the site. There must be some profitability in tall buildings, as alot of asian countries are still building tall buildings (such as the Petronas Towers). Also remember the current economy has nothing to do with the future economy. The Empire State and the World Trade Center had a hard time filling up when they were new. As for the fear factor, that will fade over time. I feel they should build something tall there with an observation deck and incorportate the memorial up high on the upper floors. No one would mind spending a few hours up there. The observation deck was a popular destination before September, and the WTC will always be a "Tourist Attraction" even more so than before.
"We also know
that our airports and airlines had flaws that made them vulnerable to terrorist hijackings. Now that those flaws have been
made obvious to us, they can be corrected. "
Trouble is ---
ARE they being corrected? Last I heard airport security is still a joke. Many things have not changed. People are still able to get potentially harmful objects through. Cockpit doors have still been spotted as not being secured.
It seems that there is some major foot dragging in that area.
According to the article I saw in the News, it would be empty above the 70th floor for some of those reasons. Just a hollow glass monument.
Well, not quite empty I would think.
The Television transmitters *must* be on the tallest structure in the city, otherwise the taller structures will reflect the signal causing ghosts on the screen.
The transmitters themselves want to as close to the antenas as possible. There will need to be some sort of access core, with an elevator all the way to the top so that the mast, and its antenas and lights may be serviced. Certainly rooms for the TV tansmitters can be concealed in this 30 story 'extension' and there will be no problem in renting this space to the TV stations, since that is where they *have* to be.
I would also put water bunkers up there for fire fighting purposes, (again not that it would have helped in a 767 attack). The building needs its own water supply with a gravity feed to fight any sort of common fires.
Apropos of the vanishing setbacks commented upon in other posts, the setbacks are mostly to let LIGHT down into the city streets. To eliminate the setback, all you need do is make your tower as narrow as the narrowest part permitted for a given elvation and site size. This tends to put an open plaza around newer builtinds, which is an altogether wonderful idea. This is why the late WTC has so much open area around the two towers. Any new building will have similar open space arund the towers.
I disagree. The WTC towers, despite having become sanctified by the events of 9/11, were too boxy and unresponsive to their surroundings. They embodied the worst of 1970's architecture. Rebuilding them wouldn't change that. The opportunity here is to correct the mistakes of the past, rather than repeat them in a knee-jerk reaction.
Besides that, if you had a son who was brutally murdered, do you think you could replace him by creating a clone? The mere thought is just plain creepy. The same issue applies to the WTC site. Rebuilding the towers wouldn't bring back a single one of the 3000 lives that were lost, nor would it erase the horrible memories of that day. Like an amputee who must eventually adjust to a new body image after losing a limb in a car accident, New York will have to adjust to a new skyline in whatever form it eventually takes. It's a painful process, but it will happen.
Like the name of a great ship that tragically sank, or like the jersey of a beloved athlete, the original WTC should be retired and allowed to rest in peace. And New York should be allowed to move on.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I've registered for the Times and no one else. The LA Times recently started requiring it so I've stopped reading them. The Sun-Times does not make you register -- and they got Ebert.
So, David, precis it, unfair-use it.
I'm not in the business of posting copyrighted materials to message boards. You'll just have to register on the Trib's site and read the article for yourself. If you don't want to do that, then it's your loss.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David,
Thanks for that article. At least we're making real progress now on the height issue. Next step, getting the towers rebuilt.....
JDL
As a New Yorker, thats great news, and I look forward to another dominating skyscraper.
As an ex-firefighter, I think it sucks.
Something that the American people don't understand is that skyscrapers that high are death traps in fire, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done to change it. I really do hope that they build something at least as tall as the former WTC, but everyone also has to realize that in order to do so, safety WILL have to be compromised. Hopefully, no more incidents are gonna happen in our skyscrapers anytime soon.
I'm generally in favor of a tall skyscraper being built at the WTC site, although I don't think Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill is the right firm to design it. They did some great skyscrapers back in the 60's (Sears Tower, Hancock Center), but for the past thirty years they've been a corporate assembly line cranking out one mediocre design after another. I tend to think of SOM as the Sony of architecture: Their products are okay but hardly noteworthy, but their vast size and huge name-recognition factor still get them huge high-profile commissions. I think there's plenty of much better architectural talent out there.
Your concerns about high-rises are valid, but I believe it's possible to build skyscrapers in a way that avoids some of the oversights of the WTC. See my responses to Peter Rosa about just a couple of the changes we'll be likely to see in future high-rise construction. It will be interesting to see what other changes are made, as well. I'll definately be keeping a close eye on the architectural trade journals over the next couple years.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In terms of possibly designing super-tall buildings safer, the only thing they can really do is develop new fire retardant protection for steel beams to try to protect from the heat for a few hours. The problem with high buildings is simple---its logistically impossible to fight fire in them. It takes literally hours to reach the fire floor, once your guys get there, they are beyond exhausted. And also, in the time to reach the fire floor structural failure is very probable. Once you reach the fire, your chances of extinguishing it are very slim. One 2 1/2" hose line can extinguish about 2500 sq ft of fire, which isnt much. Water availability is also a major concern.
You might think standpipes and sprinklers might solve some of these problems, BUT....
the public would be astonished to find out how many buildings have faulty sprinklers and standpipe systems.
As I'm employed by the mortgage company that arranged the refinancing of the WTC towers a few months prior to 9/11, I will relate what we've been told.
Most of the "paper" resulting from the refinance prior to 9/11 was securitized, or sold to investors. Our company retained a share also. Therefore, the loss is spread out amongst many investors.
There are several factors that will determine what is built on the parcels that are referred to as Ground Zero. But two are very important.
First is that there is a legal battle between the investors and the insurance companies that insured the properties. It will be up to the courts to interpret if there was "one event" or "two events". Of course if there was one event, the insurers get out of paying a great deal of money, however, if it is ruled that there were two separate events, there will mean a bigger payout for the claims. The more money paid in settlement of claims, the more seed money for rebuilding. Of course the payout will never equal the loss, both to buildings and people.
Secondly, the City of New York, and/or the State of New York, will probably have a say in what replaces the towers - of course we all know it will most likely become political.
However, whatever they decide or allow to be built, let’s make sure trains are running underneath the property again.
Jim K.
Chicago
First is that there is a legal battle between the investors and the insurance companies that insured the properties. It will be up to the courts to interpret if there was "one event" or "two events". Of course if there was one event, the insurers get out of paying a great deal of money, however, if it is ruled that there were two separate events, there will mean a bigger payout for the claims.
If I recall correctly, the basis of the insurance companies' single-event claim is that because the towers shared a single foundation, the collapse of one would have rendered the other one structurally unsound and necessitated its demolition (and what a job that would have been!) It sounds like the sort of issue that will boil down to a battle of the $10,000-per-day expert witnesses.
However, whatever they decide or allow to be built, let’s make sure trains are running underneath the property again.
Absolutely! But at least that's actually getting done.
Whoa! What was that R142/ 142A doing on Jerome and Mosholu Pkwy today?
It pulled in, southbound, at about noon, appeared to make the station stop, then pulled out. 10 cars! Was it in service or simulation? I could not see the fleet numbers.
joe c
It must been the same train that I saw on the Livonia el, signed up as a 4 around 10pm tonight. I believe it was a R142a.
I understand that the #4 is scheduled to get a cut of the R142 fleet, to replace its 9200-series R33s. If the option order is exercised, the #3 will get some R142 as well.
wayne
The option has been exercised already, and the number of cars in the procurement was also increased through a "change order."
David
Well I'm glad I left early enough today! I arrived at Penn station (making good time on the 7 and 1 lines) at 8:15am. When I walked through Penn to the NJT area nothing seemed amiss, but I wasn't looking at the TV screen and electronic "big board".
So I waited in line for my tickets, which wasn't long. When I finally got to the window the clerk said there are no trains to Summit, I will have to take PATH to Hoboken.
He didn't say why. At this point if I am taking PATH I might as well just take the #70 from Newark. So that is what I did. I took a packed PATH train from 33rd street to Newark. Man was that train stuffed, and boy did it empty out at Grove street. There seems to be alot of people who commute from NYC to grove street. And without the WTC line, it meant more crowds. After getting out of the slow ride in the tunnel, the ride was very brisk west of Journal Square. Those PATH trains seem to be quite fast, almost as fast as LIRR MU's. Around Harrson there's alot of police activity on the NJ/Amtrak tracks. Track workers all around. I was starting to connect that this had to do with the no Midtown direct to Summit. And there it was, an NJT train with one car obviously derailed. After I saw that I put 1010 on and sure enough, there was no Midtown direct due to a derailment of an NJT train.
Newark Penn station is a very nice facility, I like it better, much better than NYC Penn. After getting confused and slowed down, I finally found the ticket window, got my bus tickets and just made the #70 bus.
The bus ride was long, but interesting. Newark around Penn is actually not too bad at all, lots of office buildings and stuff. The western section is the decrepid area though, but things started improving after Irvington.
Even though the ride was an hour, the bus was pretty fast enginewise.
The mall itself is in a kinda ruralish area, reminded me abit of the north shore (I definately like Paramus better).
The mall is very upscale, and as I expected there wasn't one reasonable place to eat. It's worth no more than an hour or two.
I headed back on the 70 in the early afternoon for another fairly brisk ride to Newark Penn.
This time I was lucky enough to grab the front window the whole way for another very enjoyable PATH ride. I forgot how much I liked PATH. The cars are much quieter than NYCT's, and they take turns faster. Not to mention operators are very agressive signal-wise compared to NYCT.
Passing Harrison there were stills lots of workers around, but I couldn't see the train.
Sorry I didn't get any NJT rail pics. The weather was kinda dismal anyway.
John,
Next time you're in Newark Penn Station, follow the signs to the Newark City Subway, pay $1.50, and get on the light rail car downstairs. I haven't ridden it since it converted to light rail cars from PCC cars last August, but I'm sure you'll enjoy the ride.
Bob
Are these the same or similar light rail cars in use on HBLR?
They are one and the same.
To the passenger, anyway...
I've had lunch at 50s-style diner at Short Hills. At least it looked 50s-ish to me. Don't remember the name of it, although the food was pretty good.
Johnny Rockets.
There's one at GS Plaza as well.
Thanks.
I don't think we ever ate at GS Plaza when we used to go there.
Is that pedestrian bridge across Rt. 4 still there?
Yeah I think that was Johnny Rockets. They are good, but their prices have gone up. Not as reasonable as Wendy's or Nathans.
The only time I went there was maybe five years ago. My niece was still a toddler then.
Just to add one more thing, while riding the PATH train back to Manhattan I noticed between Newport and the last switch before the tube, the train did NOT stop for those red signals, it crept by at 5mph. Is this some type of key-by? If it is, I guess PATH allows key by more frequently. Just another reason I wish NYCT was more like PATH. :-)
Was there a lunar white aspect mixed up with those reds?
Did the trip arm drop before the train passed? Some T/Os crowd the signals so closely they change after they are out of the railfan's field of vision. The best place to see if a signal changes is out the right window behind the cab.
I was right up on that window, and the signal stayed red till it went out of vision. As for the trip arm, I never saw it drop, but it must have.
You'd never see them play it so close on NYCT, not anymore anyway.
What PATH engineers do a lot and I see it all the time, would charge the red light and a second before of hitting it, the light would turn yellow. Cowboy engineers I guess.
There's a bit of a delay between when the arm starts to lower and when the signal changes, presumably to allow for varying air pressure (lower pressure will cause the arm to go gown more slowly). Some engineers will take advantage of this.
However, it can fool them - I was on a late-night round-robin train a few months ago where the train was tripped not once but twice by red signals - once near Morton St. (westbound) and again between F and K (before Grove St.).
Actually, the way it works is that when the conditions call for
clearing the signal, first the stop arm is driven down. The
signal bulbs are interlocked through some cam switches in the stop
arm mechanism. The signal will always display red unless the arm
has reached a clear position. This way, if the stop mechanism has
failed for some reason on a beautiful day with clear track and
bountiful green signals, the motorman/engineer will not be surprised
to find an arm sticking up out of nowhere.
Hmmm. There is a definite sense of delay between when the arm is all the way down and when the signal changes - offhand, I'd say it is about 2 seconds. Is it possible there's a delay network in there?
A year or so ago at the WTC, I was waiting for a late-night train and there was some very odd behavior going on - one by one, each of the trip arms would cycle up and down about 10-15 times. IIRC, these were the non-normal-direction signals at the end of the platform). While the arms were down, the signal aspects did not change from red, though the arms did come back up right away. Is it possible that a delay (if there actually is one) is there to prevent showing brief non-red aspects on the signals in such a case?
Stops that have traffic passing over them from the opposite direction have a circuit leg to drive them down when opposing signals are selected and/or route sticks are dropped out.
Since the behavior you describe was happening late at night, I would guess that the interlocking was being tested somehow.
Depending on the wiring of the signal, there may be another
relay that repeats the clear position of the stop arm. Under
NYCT nomenclature, that would be called the HV relay. Still, 2
seconds sounds like a lot of time! Delay network? Not likely.
Not really typical signaling practice.
As for that other incident, I agree, it sounds like some kind
of testing of the reverse traffic feature. On tracks that are
fully signalled for bidirectional running, when the traffic is
set in one direction, the stops in the opposing direction are
cleared, but the signals would still show red (perhaps as a
reminder that, if you somehow made it past the entrance home
signal, say by hooking down the arm, that you really shouldn't
be there and moving in that direction).
If you were at the front window the signal might have dropped after you lost track of it and b4 the front truck hit the trip arm. Yesterday I saw an example of this as my 33rd St. train took one of the cassion tracks into the Midtown tubes.
"You'd never see them play it so close on NYCT, not anymore anyway."
Oh yeah? Been riding the 14th St tubes lately?
It's a great place to take the uninitiated and watch them react when they realize the train is on the post headed into a red with no lunar. As others will attest, with a good operator, you won't see the last timer change from red.
Last time I rode the L through 14th street I had "scardey cats" both ways, but when I rode the L a few years ago I remember the GT's clearing a few seconds before we passed them. If you get a good T/O, the 14th street tubes can be just as fast as 60th street.
And speaking of the L, I heard on 1010 WINS around 6pm there was no service to Manhattan. What was up with that?
Today at About 12:35 PM i was on a Uptown A and i looked over into a Uptown C Train Window could not see the # was in the Tunnel But the Roller Sign said
168 Street <-Manhattan
Euclid Av <-Brooklyn
C <- Conc/8 Av/Fulton
forgot to Change the Roller sign LoL
Someone probably just scrolled it up one to be funny. I don't know anyone who could possibly find that amusing...
(walks away whistling).
179 St, Jamaica
Rockaway Pky
KK | 6 Av - Bway (Bklyn) Lcl
(I never did that! I swear! Really. Honest)
A recent cartoon (in which paper I can't recall) depicted rich fatcats (the airlines)leaving Capitol Hill with bags of money (subsidies) given generously by Congress while to the side and in the shadows lurked a lone panhandler (Amtrak), with his hat in hand, waiting for any nickels and dimes Congress might seem fit to pass out. Though comical, the picture was nonetheless quite chilling, for we stand on the brink of losing interstate rail travel as we know it. Today's threat by Amtrak to shut down all rail service by July is long overdue and frankly I hope that threat is carried out for only when this nation loses Amtrak will it come to realize how important Amtrak really is. This nation was built upon its rails, be they in the cities or across the prairries. Trains are as much a part of America as the bald eagle and the flag itself for without it neither of the other two would ultimately have mattered much.
Now is the time for railfans to unite; to write to our congressmen, our president, our governors; now is the time to engage in acts of non-violent protests, to clog our streets and our airports with human chains; to dramatize the fact that the preservation of rail transit is crucial to furthering our national interests.
Let not future generations be denied the opportunity to see the majesty of our nation through a cross country trip. Let not our children and our childrens children be denied the chance to dine in a dining car or lulled to sleep by the rumbling rails.
The joys of rail travel have been part and parcel of the American Experience for over a century and a half. Let us therefore get behind Amtrak in her hour of need; let us fight for her, secure in the knowledge that our fight is just and that rail travel is not a privilege, but a birthright for every man, woman, and child in the United States.
President Abraham Lincoln once wrote that "we cannot escape history. We will be remembered in spite of ourselves." Let us not be remembered as the generation of railfans who allowed rail travel to die. Rather let us redouble our efforts, confident of final victory, and determined to ensure that this blessing of rail travel, will yet be enjoyed by many generations unborn.
Eric Dale Smith
It is pretty sad to just watch the government more or less tell Amtrak to "get a life" while $$$ is doled out to airlines and new roads.
If Amtrak shuts down, it'll be one of the greatest American shames.
IMHO, it'll be the start of real progress to workable intercity rail...
What was the point of the Abandoned Roosevelt station, that is perpendicular to the Queens line? What unbuilt line was that supposed to connect to it? I know Rockaway was supposed to connect to 63rd Drive, so I guess it's not that. It also is strange because this station got much further than alot of the other IND provisions. It is more than just a shell (like Utica). Theis station was built, right down to the IND tiling and small tile "Roosevelt" signs ala IND. I've seen photos of the station, but forgot what color the IND stripe is (I think blue).
So why would they build this station, right down to the tiles?
It was meant to be the point where the Winfield spur of the Myrtle-Central-Rockaway line met the current Queens Blvd line.
Read here on nycsubway.org or Joe Brennan's abandoned stations write-up
You really should take the time to explore the rest of nycsubway.org. Many questions that come up here over and over are covered in depth.
Some time ago there was a series of posts outlining possibilities of extending the New York Subway to Staten Island, but after a few days the consensus was that borough didn't want it, didn't need it, and it wasn't going to happen. OK, but Nassau County is a good deal larger and a hell of a lot more congested that Staten Island is. When I was railfanning last week I ran into a number of colleagues from Long Island who bemoaned the fact their country was almost in gridlock what with all the traffic tie-ups and such. I remember riding the BART system in San Fran and the Metro in D.C, and those lines go out into the suburbs. Couldn't that be done in New York as well? It seems to me it could, and judging by all the com plaints about traffic it ought to be something that could be looked into to.
There was some talk about that MANY YEARS ago. I always thought that was a good Idea. Just have the LIRR run all the way to Suffolk with fewer or No stops in Nassau. But wouldnt the cost of converting or making lines for Subway use be astronomical. And lets not forget opposition. :)
The Nassau County types would not want 'social undesirables' using the subways to infiltrate their suburban paradise. If something was built, it would likely be 100% non-connected to the NYC system.
Yes, it was that thinking from the folks in southern Brooklyn neighborhoods like Midwood, Marine Park, and Gerristsen Beach that -- in part -- killed the plans to extend the IRT Flatbush Branch into Sheepshead Bay. The other factor was that the residents felt betrayed by City Hall, after it was stated that the line extension would be a true subway (completely underground), then the truth was 'leaked out' that in fact the line would be an unsightly El that would transverse the residential neighs from south of Kings Highway.
Yes, but they wer planning "subway" but then discovered that it was too wet down there. I'd favor an Elevated out Nostrand and Flatbush (also on Utica) but modern graceful concrete structures designed for speed and quiet bear no resemblance to 19th century technology els.
Out on Long Island, the LIRR runs on elevated strutures through resiential neighborhoods and everybody thought it was a great improvement (to surface running train lines). In my recolection, it really opened up the neighborhoods around the tracks, because now there would be four of five crossingse where once where were only two.
It *can* be done! SCREW THE NIMBYs!
Elias
[It *can* be done! SCREW THE NIMBYs!]
I agree 100% with you. Unfortunately, NIMBY's know how to go into booths on election day in droves and throw leavers...that's the problem...
Unfortunately, NIMBY's know how to go into booths on election day in droves and throw leavers...that's the problem...
It is indeed a classic problem with democracy: the demos doesn't believe in its ideals.
That's why instead of rule by the masses, we have a system for the people.
Referendums except on the most important of subjects (amendment of the state constitution) should be avoided.
Yes, it was that thinking from the folks in southern Brooklyn neighborhoods like Midwood, Marine Park, and Gerristsen Beach that -- in part -- killed the plans to extend the IRT Flatbush Branch into Sheepshead Bay.
Gotta disagree with you on that one, Doug. It was lack of money and TA unwillingness to build that killed the Nostrand and Utica extensions. At least as late as 1964 the communities you mention were very much in favor of the Nostrand Extension and another line on Utica.
In a public hearing that year the TA, with an honesty you would never hear now, told the community that they had no incentive to build these extensions, and collect one fare where they now had two.
But Paul, I could e-mail you the photos (from the BPL collection) of Nostrand Avenue NIMBY's protesting the line in front of City Hall...
But Paul, I could e-mail you the photos (from the BPL collection) of Nostrand Avenue NIMBY's protesting the line in front of City Hall...
I believe you, Doug, but do you have a date for the picture? In my time in the City I never recall anything but that people in southern Brooklyn were cranky that the line wasn't being built.
This is more curious to me, because the line never came close enough to reality to really warrant protests. The time when it seemed closest to reality would have been right after the Bond Issue in 1950. But you need to consider how relatively unpopulated the area was at the time. As an example, the signs on the Flatbush Avenue trolley said that it went to Avenue U, but it never made quite that far, ending in a loop around a shack between T and U. The intersection of Flatbush andU was a country crossroads in 1951.
The one area I know of which decidedly didn't want a subway for social/neighborhood reasons was Maspeth and environs--but I don't know if they ever protested at City Hall over it.
I'll try to find a date (don't recall seeing one), but the name of the protesting group (on a sign) was 'Nostand Taxpayers Association'.
What do the signs say? I think there might have been some protest about Vanderveer Estates (on the old Flatbush Waterworks) in the immediate post-war era. Some anti-subway people might have joined in the same thing.
Taking another point in your earlier post, I recall that at one point some Sheepshead Bay Democrats (who actually drew from an area rather east of Sheepsgead Bay) became aware that most of the Nostrand line would probably have to be an el, and protested that, but their remedy was a subway, not having the line unbuilt.
To put another historical spin on it, at mid-Century the southern area of Nostrand was so unpopulated that Nostrand cars didn't go through, there was a shuttle south of Avenue H on unpaved track. I never fot to ride that one. Older railfans said it was great!
Just to rename this to the topic and add info, Parsons has been hired to do a southern Brooklyn transport study, which is discussed at www.southernbrooklyntis.com. I found out about it at the American Planning Association annual meeting, from a collegue who works for Parsons.
Planning is cheaper than building, and seems to work as well politically. As for building, the last I heard the TA was considering building at better terminal at Flatbush and Nostrand to improve capacity.
There is a reason for the TA to build: subways make money (at least on operating), buses lose money, and the most crowded buses in Brooklyn are in the area not served by subways. But with all of Queens taking a bus to the subway, at all those needs in the center that affect the entire city (ie. Second Ave), hard to see how anything gets built.
My tenure as a Livingston [MT] City Commissioner backs up what you say about planning being cheaper than building. I'm stll hot to find what they've spent for studies on a minor traffic improvement [in a town of 6700 people] could have had the damned thing built already...all over lengthening turning lanes and putting in a left turn signal at one intersection. Unreal. Apparently, according to Cunningham's book...the Nostrand line was going to be extended toward Marine Park in the 1920's as a realtor told a young couple who bought a house there. The book was written about 1977, the couple retired and moved to Florida by then..and that was 25 years ago plus.
I'll try to find a date (don't recall seeing one), but the name of the protesting group (on a sign) was 'Nostrand Taxpayers Association'.
>>>"The one area I know of which decidedly didn't want a subway for social/neighborhood reasons was Maspeth and environs."<<<
Paul, if it was a true subway, underground maybe they wouldn't have
squimed about it. The proposed section thru Maspeth was above ground.
:-) Sparky
>>>"The one area I know of which decidedly didn't want a subway for social/neighborhood reasons was Maspeth and environs."<<<
Paul, if it was a true subway, underground maybe they wouldn't have
squimed about it. The proposed section thru Maspeth was above ground
I don't want to unfairly target Maspeth or anywhere else--it was just the only place that comes to mind where some residents said to me directly: "we don't want a subway because it would change the neighborhood."
Different times have different motives, too. That was in the early '70s, near the end of the Lindsay era, when lots of people were paranoid about social change and the City's spiralinf decline, whcih culminated in the fiscal crisis.
Paul,
I'll agree with you about the seventies, "Maspethites"
not wanting a subway for fear of changing the neighborhood.
Maspeth, even with the LIE bisecting it, it more suburban than urban even to this day.
My reference was to the 2nd IND, which would have divided Maspeth
with an overhead transit line in the thirties or forties,
way before the LIE.
:-) Sparky
My reference was to the 2nd IND, which would have divided Maspeth
with an overhead transit line in the thirties or forties,
way before the LIE
What roads was the el through Maspeth supposed to take?
>>>"What roads was the el through Maspeth supposed to take?"<<<
I do not know exactly, where my maps are at present. But off the
top of my head, 65th Place and curving southward onto Fresh Pond Rd.
come to mind.
:-) Sparky
The intersection of Flatbush andU was a country crossroads in 1951
I vaguely remember this intersection before Kings Plaza was built. There still wasn't that much there.
--Mark
Kings Plaza has completely changed Flatbush & Ave U. There's the mall itself which dominates the intersection, then there's the Wiz store, and the new Home Depot opening at a nearby strip mall west of the intersection.
The traffic there is horrendous and five bus routes (six if you count the Q35, which passes through to Jacob Riis Park) terminate there.
A subway terminal for any future Utica and Flatbush extensions here would definitely ease the congestion.
By the way I think a better Flatbush Avenue extension can be made by creating a spur from the Prospect Park station of the Brighton Line.
By the way I think a better Flatbush Avenue extension can be made by creating a spur from the Prospect Park station of the Brighton Line.
That would be a more attractive service, but you would be adding another line to just two tracks north of Prospect Park, so doesn't seem like that could fly.
Hmmm ... of course, if we restore the Franklin L:ne to two tracks, and rebuild the Fulton L over the Brooklyn Bridge and connect it into Chambers Street like it was planned in BMT days, we could probably add the service, no problem.
I'll have to write Mayor Mike about that! What do you think he'll say? :-)
He'll probably pass it on to the MTA who'll put it on the back burner for the next eighty years :-)
I remember a plan to extend and merge the Franklin shuttle to the G line between Classon and Bedford-Nostrand. That would make the G a genuine Cross-town line.
-Alex V.
When asked about it at DCP, I said if City Planning wanted to propose a fantasy for political purposes, it should be up Utica and through Bed-Stuy to hook into the Canarsie Line, which could handle more trains. You'd have transfers to the IRT at Eastern Pkwy, and could use the IND second system shell at Utica Avenue.
"By the way I think a better Flatbush Avenue extension can be made by creating a spur from the Prospect Park station of the Brighton Line. "
In theory this looks doable, but it is not, for there is no xs capacity through dekalb, across the bridge or up boradway.
So GUESS AGAIN!
Or check out my 23rd Street Subway for ideas.
Elias
The 1968 MTA "Grand Plan" definitely had Nostrand and Utica Avenue routes included. I heard that this was to give the plan "balance." The Second Avenue subway and Queens Super-Express were higher priorites, but something had to be offered to get political acceptence in Brooklyn.
They only get one fare with transfers.
Not until "One City, One Fare." They got a full fare on the Nostrand, Flatbush or other bus, and another full fare on the subway, except for a brief period from 1948 to 1951 or so, when there was a reduced fare paid transfer.
Currently, buses also have higher average operating costs per passenger trip.
If a Nostrand extension were to built today, the biggest NIMBY of all would the proprietors of the Auto Mall between Avenue M and N.
-Alex V.
Oh I wish it would. Wish it would...
The gridlock in the Garden City-Roosevelt Field area (aka the Hub) is severe at all times. And although NIMBY's around my area would probably kill me for saying this, but a Northern Blvd subway would be a great idea. Going from Manhasset along Northern Blvd into Flushing, perhaps joining the Queens IND somehwere.
I did design a BAHN layout awhile back with a Nassau county transit system. I believe it is stored somewhere on this site.
I did design a BAHN layout awhile back with a Nassau county transit system. I believe it is stored somewhere on this site.
What's the file called?
I think it's called LIRT (for Long Island Rapid Transit).
Most of the gridlock in Nassau County comes from intracounty traffic.
People headed to NYC are already on the LIRR or LIE. What is needed is good service where the gridlocks are. This means serving the business centers of Nassau County from the outlying areas of Nassau County, and doing so in such a way as it is more attractive than using a car.
Remember, when the NYC subways were being built, the competition was a HORSE!
Perhaps I will try to draw such a map. I tried to make one based on streetcars, but canned that idea. It was still stuck in the Gridlock.
Elias
I don't understand they they don't spend more time on public transit in Nassau. A few years ago there was talk of making a transit hub around Roosevelt Field. The Central Branch would be perfect for this. In addition there is an unused spur that comes off the Central Branch and runs right near Roosevelt Mall. It crosses Zackendorf (spelling?) Blvd right around where the Meadowbrood exits are. What was this spur, who owns it, and wouldn't it make sense to use it for rail transportation, along with the Central Branch?
>> In addition there is an unused spur that comes off the Central Branch and runs right near Roosevelt Mall. It crosses Zeckendorf (spelling?) Blvd right around where the Meadowbrood exits are. What was this spur, who owns it, and wouldn't it make sense to use it for rail transportation, along with the Central Branch? <<
Until a year or two ago this freight siding (complete with parkway overpass) was still nominally active. However, recent construction in the Garden City freight yard appears to have severed the tracks at Stewart Ave. I doubt that it actually has been used in quite some time. If it is going to be used for anything, folks had better start yelling now before it's too late.
Hmmm, sounds like I might have to dust off my EA, Network and HAT system maps....
wayne
You're right.
In Hong Kong, the subway system is fairly interwined with the commuter rail system, and both pretty much complement each other. If one wanted to get from Chek Lap Kok International Airport to Sheung Shui, one takes the Airport Express to Tsing Yi, transfer to the Tung Chung Line and ride that to Lai King, then the Tsuen Wan Line to Prince Edward, Kwun Tong Line to Kowloon Tong, and then the KCR East Rail up to Sheung Shui. Both systems are pretty interconnected, and I think that trip is only about...let's see...about an hour and fifteen, give or take a quarter of an hour or so.
From all of the horror stories I've heard from all around the 'Net, Jamaica is pretty much a bleeping nightmare. I think subway service is needed out in Nassau...Esp. now with the Islanders returning to better days (Only the heavens know how long THAT will last...) I think it would be a good idea to supplement LIRR service with subway.
Either that, or the LIRR has to have better connections with the subway. How they can do that, is something that the TA should figure out.
-J!
"Either that, or the LIRR has to have better connections with the subway"
People from the Island don't want to get onto the subway until they are in Manhattan.
Now I could see feeder lines trying to bring LI passengers to Hicksville or Freeport for a connection with the LIRR.
Elias
The Nassau county subway definately needs to focus on intra-county travel. Getting people to LIRR and shopping areas, with major terminals for lines in Roosevelt Field and major LIRR stations such as Great Neck, Mineola, Hicksville,etc.
The only idea I have heard (and it failed) was a hub light rail or people mover. It would have been in a loop between Roosevelt Field and Westbury. But it would have done nothing to aleviate congestion in that area as most traffic is going to or leaving the area. You have to get people to leave the car at home, something LI'ers strongly protest.
>> You have to get people to leave the car at home, something LI'ers strongly protest. <<
It is partly a chicken and egg problem. One reason for the protest is precisely the lack of alternatives. As bad as car travel is, it is still faster and more convenient than the alternatives. For example, we have virtually NO north-south train service. The LIRR is focused heavily on Manhattan trips. Everything else is just incidental.
The N4 bus takes me 40-45 minutes to get from Baldwin to Jamaica. I can drive to Jamaica in significantly less time even with traffic (but missing that free transfer bugs me). Other bus/RR trips within Nassau and Suffolk are equally difficult and time-consuming.
Build the reasonable alternatives and "they will come."
An N4 bus? Boy do I like the sound of that. I don't ride busses, but when I get to New York I am going to try that one out. Can you guess why? Another quiz and easier, I think, than the last one.
>> An N4 bus? Boy do I like the sound of that. I don't ride busses, but when I get to New York I am going to try that one out. Can you guess why? Another quiz and easier, I think, than the last one. <<
Take the E, J, or Z to Jamaica Center; it leaves from Archer Avenue and it's a free transfer with MetroCard. Plan on taking it at least to the Nassau border because eastbound Nassau buses do not discharge passengers in Queens. Of course, I'd like the sound of a Merrick Blvd. subway even better. :)
http://www.mta.info/libus/pdf/n4.pdf
Fred is referring to the use of the number 4. That's his favorite number from the days when the Duke of Flatbush wore it.
Say Fred, what did you think of Carl Furillo?
When I lived in Levittown, I used to occassionally take the LIRR between Hicksville and Port Jefferson to visit my girlfriend (now my wife) in Miller Place. (Tiny town east of Port Jeff.) It worked allright. For one thing, it was a beautiful ride. But I don't think I would have done it if I'd had a car.
:-) Andrew
Thanks J. I will now rest my case and be convinced that on this one I am right on the mark.
Hi; have you lived in Hong Komg for a long time?seems your are very familous with the transporation system in Hong Kong...
If your are from Hong Kong, email me, thx
Yeah, I have. I live in Canada tho, but I still keep up.
e-mail me at survivor_globie@hotmail.com if you wish to speak to me.
-J!
It's a nice idea for Long Islanders, but it comes at the expense of Queens passengers. Imagine the E or F train extended out to Nassau along Hempstead Turnpike to Hempstead. The trains would be filled before they hit the city line.
I always thought the LIRR should extend the Belmont Park line as a subway underneath Hempstead Turnpike with stops in Elmont, Franklin Square, West Hempstead, Hempstead, Nassau Colesium, East Meadow, Levittown and then hook in with the Ronk. Branch.
Then you could probably dump the West Hempstead branch and terminate the Hempstead branch at Garden City (or for the really aggressive minded extend east from Garden City along the old ROW. You could then use the WH and Hemp. ROW's for the oft-discussed light rail.
CG
>> It's a nice idea for Long Islanders, but it comes at the expense of Queens passengers. Imagine the E or F train extended out to Nassau along Hempstead Turnpike to Hempstead. The trains would be filled before they hit the city line. <<
That's assuming that it would be used by Manhattan commuters. I think Hempstead Turnpike needs a subway for local traffic (people traveling within Nassau or eastern Queens). The N6 bus is overcrowded and subject to "bunching." Short of a subway, little can be done about that. I suspect that most Manhattan commuters would continue to use the railroad even though it would be more expensive.
Charles G may have a point. It's possible that an E or F extension may cause the train to be at least half capacity by the time it reaches Queens. But your point is taken as well, and is more like to occur. Since Nassau is much further east than Manhattan, county residents would primarily use a subway extension to travel within the county. Only residents that live immediately east of the county line would likely ride an F train into Manhattan. Surburban subway extensions would work best if they are run near the commuter lines and provide frequent transfer to LIRR stations, so that LIRR riders could transfer to the nearest subway station to complete their trip home or vice versa, therefore providing the incentive to leave the cars at home, and only drive when they have a desire to, not because they have to. There may be some commuters that take the subway into the county, to a convenient stop, and drive the rest of the way to home or vice versa from there, but there would have to be sufficient park and ride facilities to accommodate that.
I have been working on subway expansion plan for over a year now, and I do have trains serving Nassau County to supplement the LIRR and Nassau buses. I even have subway route jointly operated with the LIRR Montauk line along the Montauk's ROW!
[There may be some commuters that take the subway into the county, to a convenient stop, and drive the rest of the way to home or vice versa from there, but there would have to be sufficient park and ride facilities to accommodate that.]
A good example of a subway line that goes to the 'burbs would be Boston's Red Line that was extended to Braintree which is near Brookline. They give a good alternative to driving as there are large and modern Park-n-Ride facilities on the route.
We could definitely use something like that here, but politics and money are always an issue which prevents these needed transit improvements.
When it happens, I own the domain name lisubway.org. :)
Sea Beach Fred ... would increased LIRR service be accepted as an alternative given that there wouldn't be any construction to more tightly integrate the LIRR & NYC Subway anytime soon?
--Mark
If it would ease congestion and the support of those who are tired of fighting gridlock, then yes. You would be more up to date on that than I am but it appears that as of now the LIRR isn't getting the job done. We that problem in the suburbs out here. Sometimes I dread getting on the freeways.
If it would ease congestion and the support of those who are tired of fighting gridlock, then yes. You would be more up to date on that than I am but it appears that as of now the LIRR isn't getting the job done. We that problem in the suburbs out here. Sometimes I dread getting on the freeways.
"We that problem in the suburbs out here. Sometimes I dread getting on the freeways. "
Thats good, because we don't *have* "freeways" in New York City! : )
I agree, Fred, a subway to Nassau County would alleviate some of the traffic congestion. Unfortunately, the it is something the whole county needs to complain about--not just a handful of people, otherwise the majority of the populace, being NIMBYS, would never allow this to happen. However, main throughfares like Northern Blvd./North Hempstead Tnpk., Jericho Tnpk., Old Country Road and Sunrise Highway or Merrick Road would be perfect for eastern extensions of current lines or new routes entirely.
X-Train, Sunrise Highway and the Jericho Turnpike would seem to me to be the perfect routes for subway extention and those two roads were what I was thinking of, along with the LIE. Why people would be against such a thing when it could relieve congestions is beyond me.
The people riding on those roads are not going to NYC.
Most are going shopping, and in the rest of the world that means taking your car to the mall.
Much of that traffic is also truck traffic. Traffic that is not permitted onto the parkways.
With the construction of more LIRR terminals in NYC, the LIRR can up its capacity to match that found on the subways.
Intra county transit is needed.
Elias
Those same extensions can also serve the purpose of intra county travel.
A Northern Blvd. line would be a good choice for a subway to Nassau line, serving the north region of the county. A Jericho turnpike line would serve the middle region and a Sunrise Highway line would serve the southern region. these are all east-west routings. All that's needed are a couple of north-south routes.
They already *have* a Sunrise Highway Route... It is called the LIRR.
You will need much more than "a few" north south routes according to my calculations. People go east and west to work, and north and south for shopping and other business.
Elias
True, but the extension would provide for more local stations and work in conjunction with the LIRR Montauk line, providing transfers between the two lines.
Yeah, more east-west routes are not really needed, you need more north south routes. I think Light Rail would be a better option than the the subway extensions for Nassau County. Something like a cross between the LIRR and the subway.
I was thinking about getting on the Canarsie line one day on the weekend and getting some photos of the few remainding R-40's. If not maybe one day after work. The best elevated station for photos I think is Atlantic Ave because you can pretty much see whats coming from the next station south (Not to mention the great 'S' curve). Anyone want to join?
I'm interested.
Ok. Im pretty flexible on the weekends. I work a basic 9-5. So E-Mail me personally and we will talk
When I came here in January I noticed everyone wanted only B, D, F and N service to Coney Island. Why is that? In 2004 the Southside is going to need something extra than the N with B and D service on the North Side. If B and D service runs fulltime and N service runs part time on the bridge then It would be this again. Can someone please explain to me the love of only one Broadway Service?
i would think that the Q would remain on Broadway and run over the bridge.and lets not forget the W,who knows whats gonna happen with that train,
The Q used to go over the bridge with the N, so I assume it will again when the bridge fully opens.
Don't assume anything. Just about any service configuration that's physically possible using the existing structures and switches is in the running at the moment.
David
True, but assuming the B/D and N/Q will all operate via the bridge when it's fully operational is quite safe. Absolutley no other possible routing makes more sense.
Again: no assumption is safe where the Manhattan Bridge post-2004 is concerned. Don't assume a routing, and don't assume a route letter. Nothing has been determined yet, and we're two years away.
David
BTW, I wasn't issuing orders, which I have no right to do. I'm simply giving advice, since any posts about what's "going" to happen on Subdivision "B" post-2004 are sheer speculation, whether they're labeled as such or not.
David
The process of making reasonable assumptions from known information is part of everyday life as well as part of the scientific method.
There are various known facts that lead to reasonable assumptions about the train service:
- The track pattern east of DeKalb allows for the least switching either if all 4th Ave locals go into the tunnel and all Brighton trains go over the bridge, or vice versa.
- The DeKalb bypass track is necessary to avoid congestion there, and is reached from the 4th Ave express track on the east and the bridge on the west.
- Brighton has more traffic than West End, which has more traffic than either Sea Beach or Bay Ridge.
- The majority (over 60%, probably 75-80%) of S Brooklyn riders in the morning rush want to get to midtown.
- NYCT likes to have trains terminate near a yard at at least one end of the route for operational simplicity and cost savings, and there isn't one at Astoria or 95th St.
[The process of making reasonable assumptions from known information is part of everyday life as well as part of the scientific method.]
Actually, "assumptions" are INPUTS to the scientific method, not outputs. Once data are collected and analyzed, the scientist makes "inferences" (i.e. draws conclusions).
Anyway, David's point is this: While many SubTalkers are VERY knowledgeable about the workings of the subway system, and can run circles around Transit's "planners," it is still those "planners" who develop the service plans (or sets of alternatives) and it is still Transit's senior management who make the decisions. Whatever hasn't come out of that process is, by definition, pure speculation.
Well, I guess the Q and the R could be the check. When the Q's running on the bridge, R is in the tunnel. When Q's out, R runs on the bridge with N. And maybe the W. I dunno.
As I've said before, we can talk about it until the cows come home, but everything is up to the NYCTA.
-J!
And while the R is on the bridge, lower manhattan is served by... ?
Poor forgotten local stops.
Waitaminute...lemme back up here...
W and R to tunnel.
Q and N to bridge.
Perfect, yes?
-J!
P.S. Did I forget anything?
In a perfect world, yes.
Almost. With the resumption of B service, the W in Brookln would be redundant. My guess is the W runs in Queens & Manhattan only post 2004.
Perfection is the two lines to a track system, which is basically what most people are coming up with:
B D - 6 av express / Br
F (V?) - 6 av local
Q N - Broadway Exp / Br
R W - Broadway Local
M R - Montague Tunnel
Sir, you've taken the words right out of my mouth. Now that's where that went!
-J!
There won't be only one service. If the full bridge is open, the B/D will run on the north side and the N/Q will run on the south side.
Again: It's incorrect to say that a given route (D, N, whatever) WILL run on the Manhattan Bridge post-2004. Everything's up for grabs right now, and I do mean EVERYthing.
David
If you go to the MTH site, it looks as though the two-car add-on for the R-17 O-gauge subway set has been cancelled.
I wonder whether the interest in subway models has peaked?
Please be advised theres enough R 62As to make up 7 # 7 trains. R 62As 1706-1710 have arrived to Corona yard last night (Wed. night.)
They've been very busy over at Corona Yard these days. Just the other night, they did a Corona/207 transfer. I heard it took about 8 hours just to get 11 cars over there.
I was just looking at the NEC timetable in preparation for my NYC Trip tomorrow and I noticed that NJT runs 4 Super Express Trains that only stop at Princeton Jct. and Trenton. My question is why don't they also stop them at Hamelton? Holy crap, a WHOLE ENTIRE TRAIN for TWO stops? Does this make sence with like the 2nd most popular stop inbetween the other two stops? Its not like they are running on the express track or anything. Does anyone know the rationale for this?
I think you may be misreading the schedule. NJT lists the Amtrak Clockers in their schedules -- check the train numbers, in the AM the train numbers are A622, A624, A628 and A640. All of the NJT trains from Trenton stop at Hamilton -- at least in the AM rush.
Is Hamilton really the second most popular station? I'd have thought Metropark would be 2nd after Princeton Jct. I would have guessed Hamilton was much further down.
CG
Actually, based on personal observation, I would say that Metuchen rather than Metropark is the second busiest station.
John
I think you may be misreading the schedule. NJT lists the Amtrak Clockers in their schedules -- check the train numbers, in the AM the train numbers are A622, A624, A628 and A640. All of the NJT trains from Trenton stop at Hamilton -- at least in the AM rush.
No. He was reading the schedule correctly. NJT has some "super express" trains n/b of its own, but only ONE of them stops at Princeton Jct. and Newark. The others stop also at New Brunswick. Edison, Metuchen, Metropark sporadically.
In total, NJT has about 5 or 6 "special express" trains in the morning.
"No. He was reading the schedule correctly..."
Wait, now I think you're both reading the schedule incorrectly. I just double checked the schedule, and I couldn't find a single NJT train -- northbound or southbound -- that stops at Trenton and doesn't stop at Hamilton.
Or am I missing something?
CG
Charles, you are correct. Only those Amtrak trains listed bypass Hamilton. Maybe they were reading an "employee timetable", where there are several "X" trains that deadhead without passengers between New York and Trenton.
I was looking here. OK, he was right in reading the AMTRAK schedules but if he prefers, NJT has some "super express" trains that stop at Hamilton also in the morning. Besides, he noted that his trip to NYC would be on SATURDAY, as there are no express trains n/b (only 3 trains and they only skip 3 stops) on SATURDAY, unless if he prefers AMTRAK.
Well, people in N. Jersey have (hypothetically) more choices, with more stops in less area. So the concentration is spread out. Hamilton covers (much) more area than the northern stops (add on the fact that NJersietes can use the LB, or RV branches!)
Those "super express trains" are Amtrak Clockers from Philly, which are subsidized by NJT. By legal contract, Amtrak cannot stop at Hamilton.
Yeah, I noticed this today at Hamelton. The old Super Express trains added a stop at Jersey Ave. which threw me.
Jersey Mike:
The 6:33 always stopped at Jersey Avenue. This is the train that I normally take home from work.
The 6:11, when made into a Trenton Express, stopped at Jersey Avenue.
I was surprised when the new timetables were issued and the 5:05 - the original Trenton Express, stopped at Jersey Avenue. Now, I can leave the office at 4:45 and be home before 6:00 - if everything runs correct - a big if.
NJT has no express trains n/b on weekends except for the 10:00, 11:00, and 12:00 departures from Trenton, and they skip Rahway, Linden, and Elizabeth. These are taken care of by the NJCL and NEC trains running half an hour ahead or before the express trains.
Express trains s/b depart NY at 4:03p, 5:03p, 5:59p, and 7:03p and they skip the same stops.
Going by my 9/30/01 NEC timetable, there are only three NJT trains (the A prefix to a train number indicates Amtrak operations, if I recall correctly) that skip Metropark. None of the trains skip either Hamilton or Princeton Junction.
Here's the timetable from NJT's website, if you can get it. It is a 400k pdf file. Scroll down to the timetable, click on the magnifying glass icon with the + in it on the toolbar, then click on the timetable to make it big enough to read. I see four trains that stop in trenton and not Hamilton; they are all Amtrak trains.
NJT NEC timetable
No need to download Adobe Acrobat Reader or wait for it to load!
Just visit Bob Scheurle's NJT Schedules Page and view the simple layout without the use of a software program.
The domain of the site (www.nj.com/njtransit) has schedules of every other NJT line as well as PATH, and supplemental information easily organized for NJT riders.
Does anyone know how to obtain information on the TA Management Program that is offered at Baruch? I've been to the Baruch and MTA websites trying to find information.
Information should be available on TENS, NYC Transit's intranet website. Look under Human Resources.
David
Do you know what we out in the field have to do to find something that accesses TENS?
Nope...I've got it at my desk :-)
No terminals in the crew rooms? I know PS248 has one on the first floor...
David
Terminals in the crew rooms? We have got to get you out of that office more often.
One of my regular crew rooms went for 4 weeks after the time change in April before the clock was changed (fixed). We kept threatening the Dispatcher with waiting until the official clock said it was time to go.
Well, if local 100's in the mood for a good pot stirring, those ARE computers in the 142's and 143's ... maybe some surfing while waiting for the homeball to clear. :)
All of the Line Superintendent's offices have TENS
While I'm on reasonable terms with two line Supt's, I'm not anywhere near their offices during the course of the day.
The info is also available at 130 Livingston St, On the first floor in the training area (not the RTO training center). There's also a program at John Jay College.
The NYCT Employee Newsletter, "At Your Service", which sugar coats every article and news item they print, published a very interesting yet uncharacteristic item in their publication. In quoting a consultant describing the need for vision in planning the City's next great subway project: "The grandparents have not been born whose grandchildren will ride the 2nd Ave. Subway."
Considering the events of the last 50 years probably not.Seemed pulling the plug from it in the 1950's doomed it forever. I wish I were wrong.
Last night I was on my way home and rode R142A car 7321. When I entered the car I got the feeling that something was missing. I looked up and one of the strip maps was missing. Whether it was removed on purpose or stolen I don't know (I'll keep an eye on ebay).
Anyway I can finally truely answer one of the questions that has been asked here many times (or was it on Harry's place?). How does the train system know how many LEDs should be lit for the route.
The answer is : It is programmed into the route settings.
The area behind the strip map is rather simple. There are 64 (count 'em) individual LED lights available to represent stations.
[Just FYI: Pelham Bay Park is the 14th LED from the left.] They extend from a point from the middle of one direction arrow to the middle of the other. And ust FYI: Pelham Bay Park is the 14th LED from the left.
The direction arrows are made up individual LEDs as well.
There are no bar code readers or anything that would do a set up based on the strip map itself.
There are no bar code readers or anything that would do a set up based on the strip map itself.
Which would account for the odd readings on the 5 running with 2 strip maps I rode a few days ago.
First, let me say it's great to have SubTalk/BusTalk back. Now my question; I am considering applying for the Assistant Conductors position at Metro North and Long Island Rail Road. As I was reading the descriptions, I noticed that Metro North stated that some assignments may be Extra List assignments. I don't know much about the Extra Lists (asside from the fact that your an extra and assignments vary), and am curious to know the following:
1.) If I am assigned to Extra List duties, will I eventually have a permanent assignment, or pick an assignment like at NYCT?
2.) Are you paid a set amount or only paid for time you actually worked?
If any other information/pointers can be given it would be appreciated.
Thanks in Advance for the answers,
Tony
If you pick Extra, basically you will work a differnt job each day for 5 days a week.
One day you'll get a good job.
The next day maybe a bad one.
The day after that you might be sitting around the tower (WAA) for 8 hours hoping a job doesn't come up 15 minutes before you're supposed to go home. In that case you might end up working 16 hours that day.
You will get paid for at least 40 Hours a week. Not counting OT and boost time.
Eventually you'll be able to pick an assignment 5 days a week. Starting here and ending there for 5 days a week. But for the first year expect to be working extra. You might hear about Extra Extra. Somebody else will have to explain that one to you.
I dont know about tower or RTO, but for stations extra extra is for people whose picked job is temporarily unavailable- ie Cortlandt BMT or wnds before the end of the pick ie-gate job at Coney island or your booth will close permanently.
The main difference is that extra extras cannot get holddown jobs since you picked a job such as Cortlandt BMT.
Working a 16 hour day would violate Federal Hours of Service Laws.
He should thank his lucky stars that he isn't working for a freight railroad. New hires are not guarenteed days off and can frequently work 12 hours days for weeks on end. Compared to that, the LIRR extra board is a paragon of stability.
BTW, the Extra Board is actually preferred by some railroaders. If you take all the LIRR jobs and then have people pick them, the last job picked will be the job rejected by every other LIRR worker. You're so far down the list you don't even get the "privillage" of picking and will work some good jobs and some bad jobs. However, this is preferable to the poor sucker who had to pick the "worst" LIRR job and gets a bad job 5 days a week.
Look at this regarding the LIRR Extra list, think of the massive hassle of being on call 24 hours a day, and having to report (one day) to Ronkonkoma, next day Morris Park, next day Speonk, and the next day after Port Washington, next day West Side railyard, and the next Long Beach, especially if the Extra guy doesn't have a car. I'd rather have a "bad" job, but have stability of knowing where I am going every day, when I start and when I finish, not to mention knowing all the time what tour I work, rather than take the Grand Tour of the LIRR system ANY tour the of day, ANY reporting location!!
I mean being formerly an Extra list conductor here in NYCT, I know the hassles of the run around, and that's within the 4 boroughs NYCT serves. Just imagine the run around from Port Jeff, to Far Rockaway, to Babylon, to Flatbush Avenue, to Hempstead, and so on....while being on call 24 hours a day!! That's stressing and tiring!!
I don't know how the extra lists on the LIRR work, but New Jersey Transit has more than one extra list for trainmen:
1) New York List: handles jobs that sign up in New York, Raritan, and County Yard
2) Trenton List: handles jobs that sign up in Trenton and Atlantic City
3)Long Branch List: handles jobs that sign up in Long Branch and Bay Head.
4) Hoboken List: handles jobs that sign up anywhere on the Hoboken Division (Hoboken, Dover, Port Morris, Suffern, Port Jervis, Spring Valley, Gladstone).
Each of those lists have one list for brakemen and one list for conductors. There are also "utility" lists for yard jobs, those are usually held by the oldtimers. Of course, when it gets busy, certain lists may become "exhausted", and people are called from one list to work at a location from another list. Also, if you are called to work a job that originates anywhere besides what the name of your list is, you will be paid for deadhead time and mileage as well. There are tables printed that determine the maximum time and mileage you can claim.
I am thinking also about joining NJ Transit, and applying there. Those extra lists sound much easier to manage, especially the NY list.
That Hoboken List seems crazy. Could you theoretically be called to work at Hoboken one day and Port Jervis the next?
That's right! However, usually you can make tons of money by being called to Port Jervis. First off, the jobs that sign up in Port Jervis are big money (a lot of overtime) jobs held by high seniority guys. If any of those guys calls in sick or takes personal or vacation time, that's when a list guy will be called. Secondly, the deadhead and mileage that is also paid is based on the rail mileage and time from Hoboken. From the Hoboken List, you would be paid 4 hours round trip deadhead plus 190 round trip miles at approx. 28 cents per mile to go to Port Jervis. All of that PLUS the earnings of the assignment.
That is probably one reason why those guys get paid a hell of a lot more money than us. When those guys say they pay their dues, they certainly do!
For question #1:
When you are assigned Extra with the LIRR/Metro North (to be listed as LIRR for the rest of the post), you will not have a set tour of duty as you would with the TA. After you finish your tour, the LIRR crew office can call you exactly 8 hours after your clear to give you your next assignment. When the LIRR calls, you have 3 hours to get there whether the trains are running out there or not, so you better have a car.
Bottom line, while you're on the LIRR extra list, you won't have much of a life and you are eligible to work all 3 tours in the same week. You will make a bucketfull of $$$ though for your troubles.
Best thing to do is when a chance arises, pick a straight assignment so that you can "freeze" your schedule.
For question 2:
You are paid the full hourly rate for as long as you are on duty.
Is that why you didn't go to the LIRR Z-Boy?? Couldn't handle that?? Let's say this, once I have acquired a little more experience here in NYCT, I plan to throw my hat in the ring for LIRR or for Metro North. I bet I will still make a life for myself working there, and reap the benefits of the good pay!! Everyone under the sun said to me when I joined on as a conductor here "Ohhhh if you work PMs you won't have a life, if you work this tour, that tour, this line, that line, this job, that job you won't have a life!!". Guess what I now do the PMs and very much so have a life, hell I have more time to myself and for my woman now then I did AMs, not to mention the 4 digit checks due to all the night differentials and overtime. When I get into LIRR or Metro North, Z-Boy watch me still have a personal life!! Time will tell!! (Z-Boy maybe if you were good like me you'd be in LIRR and could handle it lol :-) j/k) As for the vehicle thing, I am working on that already, so the extra list commute in the LIRR won't be a problem at all.
We have 4 digit checks because we get paid every 2 weeks. If we got paid weekly, those checks would be far far short of 4 digits!
Hey, if you can handle the LIRR/MNCR, then go for it.
Me? No shot. I've got 5 weeks vacation coming up in a few years (something that you can't get with LIRR/MNCR), and hopefully I'll be a Dispatcher soon. I'd have to be out of my mind to consider leaving now.
You're on the list for TD!!!! Congrats!!! If you come to the A division, please give me a drop. :):)
I was on car #6478 on the #2 last night and noticed that the place (interior side of the LED) where that whale drawing usually is was bare. Are those only on certain R142's. It's the 1st time I noticed it missing.
BTW- The space looked very blank and very white, an inviting canvas for vandalism. Hopefully the TA will place something there.
Most R142s do not have artwork, although some do. All R142As do.
I wish they would have more than just one picture on the system at a time, it would make it more interesting if the had 3 at a time.
By now, most R-142's do have the artwork. The first batch to arrive didn't; I think all of the rest did.
(Does anyone else find it a bit odd to refer to a mass-produced panel as "artwork"?)
Okau, the gloves are off, or thrown at the feet of the Congress. So long as we are pretending citizen input makes a difference, write your representatives.
He was riding on top of a CSX freight car and waved to friends, unintentionally touching the wire.
He's in critical condition.
brief Inquirer story
He was riding on top of a CSX freight car and waved to friends, unintentionally touching the wire.
He's in critical condition.
The ghost of Charles Darwin is waiting, in great anticipation.
Watch it Peter. Members of the Axis of Morality are lurking amongst us. Any mention of "Darwin" can bring a stern rebuke.
Ok, then the ghost of the recently departed Stephen Jay Gould is waiting for him...
Mark
Who is Stephen Jay Gould? Inquiring mimes (sorry selkirk) need to know.
Peace,
ANDEE
Stephen Jay Gould was an important paleontologist and evolutionary biologist. He's known for helping develop the idea of "punctuated equilibrium," the theory that living things may stay unchanged for eons, then undergo periods of rapid evolutionary change due to some sudden change in environmental conditions, like an asteroid slamming into the earth, or the onset of an ice age. He was also a well-known populizer of science, and was on one episode of The Simpsons.
Gould passed away a few weeks ago at the age of 60.
Mark
Thank You,
Peace,
ANDEE
One other fact about this eloquent advocate of baseball and rationality: he was a New Yorker. From Queens.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Hew, I *like* Darwin and his awards. He makes a swell conductor. (Almost as good as the SEPTA catenary!)
The heck with the axis of whatever.... exercise your foist amendment rites! : )
Elias
Well he didn't pee on the overhead at least...
Heh... "Hey, watch this!"
-- David
Chicago, IL
As Jeff Foxworthy said, "If your last words are, 'Hey fellas, watch this," you just might be a redneck."
Mark
>>>... pee on the overhead ...<<<<
Now THERE's something I would like to see...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Wrong board. :)
lol
Well he didn't pee on the overhead at least...
Oh no not another P train thread...
Too bad that he didn't, we could have finally known what happens to someone peeing on the third rail. Remember those long "Peeing on the third rail threads"?
Most likely nothing will happen because there is no continuity from third rail, up the pee through the **** and down his feet, through his shoes to the ground because his shoes won't conduct the electricity to the ground (like birds sitting on wires).
He musta forgot boxcars aren't wood anymore.
Can we anticipate a lawsuit from his family about lack of warning signs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Excuse me a second...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WHAT A DORKHEAD!
Just one more moment...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WHAT A MORON!
Okay, I'm fine now. :)
-J!
I agree with you. How can anybody be so stupid to ride on top of a train to begin with? Then he puts his hands up in the air!
Chuck
How many volts was the wire carrying?
I believe that all SEPTA lines operate off the same overhead voltage as the NEC; assuming that's the case, it's 11.5 kilovolts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've always wondered, what is the Wattage, or Ampereage of the NEC, I mean if it's 11000 volts, but zero amps, then i should be able to play on the wires like a jungle gym, right? Voltage is nothing without Amperage to back it up.
Voltage is nothing without Amperage to back it up.
Correct. Unfortunately, I don't know what the amperage on the NEC is, but suffice it to say it must be considerable!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well each track in each mainline transformer section can handle at least 16,000 hp at 11.5kv before the substation overloads. It might be slightly more or less. The only number I have is that two GG-1's working under maxium load would tend to blow out substations.
Right. I've got the same info but I don't know how to translate that into amps (Jeff Hakner, are you reading this?).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Power = I^2 R or I V
---
Power = I^2 R or I V
---
Yes, but I wouldn't use either of those in this situation. It's easier for many reasons to use an Ohmmeter to measure someone's R rather than connect them to a live Septa wire and measure the resulting I. So it's better to use P=V^2/R since you know the line voltage and you can easily and safely measure a person's resistance.
The three simple formulas for determining the power are P=IV, P=RI^2 and P=V^2/R.
That's DC, bro ... gets funkier with AC ... sines, cosines, and all. The formula is more properly "electron flow + you = dead." :)
Oh, I know... You should see what they try to get away with in physics classes here - and at the university level no less... But it is a handy approximation if nothing else.
-Robert King
Well, I suppose I should have gotten out the handy little reference card that was given to me by University of Toronto's department of electrical engineering which has all the correct formulas on it. But I go to York (We specialize in 11 week TA strikes) so any kind of approximation will do.
-Robert King
Dat's OK ... this is subtalk. No "proff" needed and speculation is your FRIEND! Heh. Shall we even bother with nodal analysis? Nah. But that was one of the nice things about DC rail systems, you could do the math in your head. :)
That's DC, bro ... gets funkier with AC ... sines, cosines, and all.
Now you've gone off on a tangent!
Owwww! Owwwww! Owwwww! An Arcsine across your face for that one. :)
Can we sum this all nicely into a handy dandy theorem? :) Oh wait, or was it formula?
-J!
Juice + Darwin = Watts for tots ... howzzat? :)
Anyway, it dosen't matter how many volts or amps there are, its the watts that kills you. This guy briefly became the equivalent of a 11904000 Watt light bulb. No matter how you say it...OUCH!
---
Anyway, it dosen't matter how many volts or amps there are, its the watts that kills you.
---
Is there anybody else here having a good laugh at this statement?
-Robert King
Did you ever see the movie "Running Scared"? Billy Crystal & Greorgy Hines have a taxicab riding the rails on the Chicago EL. One of them comments about the third rail and finally he says "It's not the volts that will kill you, it's the amps"
Does anybody remember that?
Chuck
"Is there anybody else here having a good laugh at this statement? "
Heheheheeee.............
Watt do you think.
Elias
Nobody here but us meter readers. :)
Why is this funny? Cooking yourself takes work. No work, no fried idiot. Current and pressure are both required to zap someone. Too little or either and nothing happens.
"Current and pressure are both required to zap someone."
Exactly. That is watt was so funny!
Volts = Current
Pressure = Amps
So we were wondering watt watts has to do with it!
: ) Elias
This theory needs some lab time ... any volunteers? :)
I know a perfect test lab! :)
-J!
Please ... not a damned Labatts brauhaus ... now an Arctic Red on the other hand ... maybe. Better yet, two-fisted. :)
Who cares about watts, volts and amps anyways? It's all irrelevent. What you really need to look at is the number of Coulombs that travel through the circuit per unit time and the amount of work done to move each electron in the electric field. Now I have all the formulas for this in a book upstairs - it all wouldn't fit on the U of T pocket card.
-Robert King
Let's face it, people have been electruted by small appliances in the home, which use far less volts (110 I think) than a DC third rail or AC overhead catenary.
If the conditions are right, i. e. you become the ground, you fry.
Jim K.
Chicago
Thats why birds don't fry on exposed wire. Also thats why branford repairs it cantanery hot on insulated platforms.
Actually No. If there micro volts or micro amps nothing will happen. Also you might be intersted in a tesla transformer which allows you to conduct electricity at millions of volts without problems by alternating it till almost nothing moves.
The only thing you can know for sure is what the catanary is fused at. The current passing trough the person's body would depend on the path that the current took, and the resistance through that path. If, for example, the person was hot and sweaty (riding on top of that freight car) his body resistance might be a mere 10,000 ohms. Since I=E/R then 11,500 volts/10,000 ohms would yield 1.15 amperes - more than enough to do some serious damage to a human body.
Of course, the example is for a DC circuit and we're dealing with AC but you get the idea. One thing is for sure at 1 amp, 10 amps or even 100 amps, he wouldn't even be a blip on the board.
A color TV set has 25 kilovolts (or more) on the "red wire" to the ultor cap on a CRT. The amount of current at that voltage *IS* negligable, on the order of MICROamperes. It'll still kill you if conditions are just right. If there's voltage, your "meat resistance" will still flow a decent amount of current, even if you're not wet.
Suffice it to say, if the power's on, you're dead. It takes a spectacular degree of stupidity to ride on top of any trainset, to do so under wires is just ... well ... Darwinist.
Amperage is not determined by what is in the wire.
It is determined by the LOAD that you put on the circuit.
A 40 watt bulb draws so many amps.
A 100 watt bulb draws more amps.
A traction motor draws even more amps than that.
If you want to know how many watts the tracton motor requires, look at its specifications sheet.
If you want to know how many amps a stupid man draws while standing on top of a box car, well, it depends on the circuit.
Now in your house you have fuses (ok, so they are probably circuit breakers), and these are set to blow at a certain amperage. This protects the wires from over heating, With out the fuse to break the circuit at some reasonable number, the wires in your building become the limiting factor, and when these blow, you would need to call the fire department.
But catenary wires are a little different... if they over heat, they might melt or break, thus breaking the circuit, but they will not set your house on fire, because they are not located inside of your house. (Ie those wilers may be permitted to carry more amperage that what they might be rated for inside of your house.
At our abbey, we have many buildings on our property, we have our own poer poles, and our own transformers. Each building has main fuses rated at 250 or more amps each (three legs of course). BUT THE MAIN FUSES that connect us to the power grid are 100 AMP FUSES! The Fuses inside of the buildings are at 120 volts (per leg) and are protected at 250 (or more amps, who knows, I don't), and the wires are of very heavy guage.
But up on the transmission lines we have thin light weight wires, but they carry 4600 volts (at as I said less than 100 amps, since that is what the fuses are).... AND... (I know this because I watched MDU repace a fuse the last time it blew...) they used to be 40 amp fuses. No one knows why 40 amp fuses were in place on the main pole, probably because that was all the man had one day when it was fixed previously. Anyway his book for our property specified 100 amp fuses for that pole, and we have not had problems since.
But to make a short story long: Amperage is a property of the LOAD not a property of the LINE, although the line can be protected agains loads that exceed specifications.
Elias
You are on the right track up to a point. Assuming the figure of 11,000 volts is correct, there won't be any current flowing through them unless there is a completed circuit to the grounded return. The reason why you can't play with them is (unless you are electrically isolated from any return path) because as soon as you complete a circuit, it becomes an Ohm's law calculation with you as the resistance. If you measure your resistance with an Ohmmeter, the wire is at 11,000 volts and you short it across yourself to the ground, you can do these calculations to determine the power and current in the circuit you'd make:
Current (Amps) = 11,000 (Volts) / Your resistance (Ohms)
Power (Watts) = 11,000 (Volts) ^2 / Your resistance (Ohms)
-Robert King
He actually thought that it would be a good career move.. He had a life-long dream to become a conductor.
(did I hear a thud?)
No, but it definitely deserves a good Henny Youngman style "Barum-pum." :)
Cool! The juice is always good. So rocket scientist pulls aux bug from R142 carbody and drops in on floor into 'sweat puddle.' Sparks, smoke and flames...fire good. Train Dude, you got most of your crew back but please warn them EVERY safety meeting: higher temperatures and humidity means slick surfaces. Clean up after you spray Trizoil/penatrant/CRC or knock off grease chunks in the pits. Stuff burns like crazy mixed with water...it's a lot worse when your foot slips because of the slick conditions and you smash your leg. Becoming a 'conductor' is only temporary. CI Peter
Well, at least he survived.
Why do people do these things?
Well, I can't be held explaining why anyone would do this kind of thing, though I know one thing for certain. He was being a jackass while doing so!
Wow! And he may actually live to tell about it!
This is incredibly tragic. If he makes it, he's going to be visiting plastic surgeons, dermatologists and rehabilitation specialists probably for the rest of his life.
I don't wish this on anybody. The only consolation is that he will never do that again.
Would you leave LIRR Service Or Replace The Lines With Subway Service If Nassau & Suffok Counties Became Part Of NYC.
What kind of service do you envision? I don't imagine you're thinking of tearing up the LIRR trunks in Queens and Brooklyn. Or do you just mean fare and servcie adjustments which would have the railroad operate as a more subway-like operation?
I would leave all LIRR lines and just change them over to NYCTA Subway Service. and upgrade single track sections to double track sections.
NYCT could probably manage the commuter rail services better than the LIRR can. Of course, that's not saying much.
This is a very improbable. The LIRR is the way they all get into Manhattan. Extending subways into Nassau would entail new connections into Manhattan, which are unlikely.
Still, subway service extended along Northern Blvd, Jericho Turnpike, and something looping along Sunshine Highway and then north, with all lines going into a loop-the-loop around Roosevelt Field/Nassau Col would not go unused.
A more useful project, perhaps, would be a rationalization of the transfer points on the LIRR before enters the East River tubes. If one could funnel all the subways and all the commuter trains to a single facility, everyone would benefit immensely.
Giving up the notion that the LIRR is a real railroad, and switching most everything to subway-compatible service would also be a major plus.
A more useful project, perhaps, would be a rationalization of the transfer points on the LIRR before enters the East River tubes. If one could funnel all the subways and all the commuter trains to a single
facility, everyone would benefit immensely.
Something like that seems to be in the works for the "East Side Access" plan, a Sunnyside station of the LIRR. But it seems that might only connect to the (7).
:-) Andrew
Nassau and Suffolk shouldn't become part of NYC, and neither should Westchester or Rockland.
:-) Andrew
But those four counties plus the five boroughs would make for a marvelous 51st state.
Actually it's the rest of the state that should secede. WE should keep the name "New York". The rest could be "Albany" or something. (Actually the western part should be its own state too, "Erie" or something.
:-) Andrew
Anything that makes New York less significant in National elections is fine with me. (Though I bet the greater-New-York-City-State would still have a sizable chunk of electoral votes.)
The 8-county 51st state would be about even-steven with Democrats and Republicans, which all-in-all is a good thing in that Republicans would suddenly wake up and realize the 22 or so presidential electoral votes could be won! Bipartisan federal largesse would thereupon flow. Upstate NY would usually go Republican, tho' the dymanics would likely change and it too would be genuinely two-party.
I'd call the upstate portion Adirondack (alphabetically first in the list of states).
It's actually doable. It just requires that the Republicans and Democrats in the Legislature realize it's to their benefit to do so. The upstaters would be bigger fish in a smaller pond.
(It's actually doable. It just requires that the Republicans and Democrats in the Legislature realize it's to their benefit to do so.
The upstaters would be bigger fish in a smaller pond.)
It's not doable. Congress would need to approve New York's Senate seats going from two to four.
My idea is to join New Jersey. But only if we could leave all our politicians stranded in Albany, and Selkirk TMO has already said he won't take them.
A friend of mine in Jersey City said that Hudson County, NJ would make a perfect 6th borough.
-Alex V.
But those four counties plus the five boroughs would make for a marvelous 51st state.
You're thinking too small. The 51st state should be made up of the following 15 (or 13 with 2 mergers) counties:
Bergen, (Bronx - merge it back into Westchester), Essex, Hudson, Kings, Middlesex, (Nassau - merge it back into Queens), New York, Passaic, Queens, Richmond, Rockland, Suffolk, Union, Westchester.
Agreed, but you'd have to get to legislatures to agree, and Trenton and Albany rarely agree on anything.
Agreed, but you'd have to get to legislatures to agree, and Trenton and Albany rarely agree on anything.
Would it be constitutional for Federal Government to impose an enlarged NYC - Jersey City?
Would it be constitutional for Federal Government to impose an enlarged NYC - Jersey City?
No. I'm not sure what all the constitutional and legal requirements would be for modifying state boundaries, but suffice it to say that it would take the approval of both state legislatures, Congress (by, I believe, a 75% majority vote of both the Senate and the House of Representatives), and, in the event that an entirely new state were to be created, approval by the majority of voters of that new state in a special referendum. And I'm sure there are other requirements as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is covered by the U.S. Constitution, Article IV, Section 3:
New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.
There is precedent for this. Maine was separated from Massachusetts in accordance to this constitutional provision. West Virginia, more irregularly, was separated from Virginia during the U.S. Civil War.
No two-thirds majority is needed from Congress, just a majority of the members present in each house.
As for the consent of the legislature, in states where the people have the power to initiate legislation or constitutional amendments, the people themselves could ram such a division down the legislature's throat (e.g., we'd just say they won't get paid a dime until they consent). Something like this surfaces from time-to-time in California. There's a rather ancient movement in the Pacific Northwest to take the Idaho panhandle and join it to western Washington (centered on Spokane) as the state of 'Lincoln'.
It's doable.
West Virginia, more irregularly, was separated from Virginia during the U.S. Civil War.
If I understand correctly, an earlier irregularity was the admission of Kentucky as a state whilst Virginia still uncontestedly claimed that land. It seems that irregularities are doable as long as Virginia is the victim of them!
How was the District of Columbia set up - was this by Maryland and Virginia voting to allow it?
Both states donated the land for the Federal District. The District originally had two counties: Washington and Alexandria. Washington County encompassed the territory ceded by Maryland and included the Federal City, Georgetown, and several other small towns, while Alexandria County encompassed the territory ceded by Virginia, primarily the city of Alexandria. On July 9, 1846, Congress returned Alexandria County to Virginia, as its "remote location" across the Potomac rendered it unsuitable for use by the government, so today's Washington, D.C. is entirely on former Maryland territory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Virginia section of DC would have been what is now mostly Arlington county, and a small part of Alexandria. Just look at a map of DC and complete the diamond. Arlington is widely misunderstood by Northern Virginia residents to be a city. An easy mistake to make, since VA cities, just like counties, have their own judicial and legislative centers, and school system, etc. An Exception is that Fairfax county and Fairfax city have agreed to share.
Also, the Potomac is completely owned by Maryland. VA lost it as a result of the Civil War. It's a pain in the ass anytime VA wants to put in a pipe or a pier or such.
The Woodrow Wilson bridge between VA and MD crosses DC in its span.
Alexandria used to be famous for its crackers.
I think I'm out of fun facts.
U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 17:
"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"
Maryland and Virginia had no choice in the matter, unless they chose not to ratify the constitution.
Agreed, but you'd have to get the legislatures to agree, and Trenton and Albany rarely agree on anything.
"If Nassau & Suffok Countys Become Part Of NYC"
Us NYC residents would no longer have the peace of mind knowing that the fashion and finance celebrity ass-kissing disco trash technically leaves town by going to the Hamptons on summer weekends.
When you mean subway, I presume you mean rapid transit and not necessarily an underground subway. The general rule of thumb for subway building is a $1 billion dollars per mile of tunneling. I regrettably have to keep tossing that figure around to put things in perspective.
As such, I would vote to leave existing LIRR service as commuter rail. MNRR makes many stops within the Bronx and at 125th Street before Grand Central, and is a vital tool for conveying passengers to Midtown. There are many Bronx residents who commute solely to Manhattan on MNRR as the subway ride would be too long or inconvenient. That seat gets uncomfortable for me after an hour. I don't know about you.
However, Long Island is an excellent location for light rail. The problem with Long Island is that many business centers are spread out, much like Westchester. While LIRR helps bring people to Manhattan, it does noting to help people commuting from home in Brentwood to work in Huntington. Subway style rapid transit really requires a density on one end. Unfortunately, you have a lot of residences and businesses scattered throughout the island, by which it would be very difficult to connect all of them.
You mention Washington and Boston by example, but if you look at their transit map, you will see all lines heading to a central core. I don't know what, if any, central core Long Island has.
My vote would be to increase and subsidy parking lots at transit stations, provide more and faster commuter rail service to Manhattan (Midtown East, West, and Downtown), and build speedy light rail with sufficient parking to link areas of highest density.
MATT-2AV
"...If Nassau & Suffok [sic] Counties Became Part Of NYC.
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's bad enough that Brooklyn and the other counties had to live under a 104-year New York-occupation, there's no need to make the monster bigger and stronger.
Yeah, I wouldn't want to have to hear "Occupied Nassau or Suffolk"......
i rarely use this station but the last 2 times i went i saw that the upper mezanine which was rather large and went from 93rd st to 95th st and at one point 4th and 5th avenues is now partially sealed off. they even put tiles and mosaics on the cinderblock wall that is blocking the way to the 93rd st exit. there was also a sign somewhere that said something to the effect of "passageway permanently closed". are they building crew quarters on the other side of the wall? will the 2 entrances on 93rd st street level be dismanteled or sealed? at least the closing of that section looks nice.
-tim
Does anybody know how many R143 trainsets are in service on the L line right now?
Also, has the option order for the R143 has been placed yet?
Last report had three - four trains of R143's operating on the "L".
IIRC, the option order was approved a long time ago.
Thanks for the info. Do you know how many more trainsets the L would need before all of its R40s and R42s are removed from the line?
If I'm not mistaking the R-143 order is supposed to be 212 Cars, Maybe you have to divide 212 by 8 and you will your answer (8 Represents the Consists of each R-143 Trainset on the L Train).
-AcelaExpress2005
"If I'm not mistaking the R-143 order is supposed to be 212 Cars, Maybe you have to divide 212 by 8 and you will your answer (8 Represents the Consists of each R-143 Trainset on the L Train)."
No! The R-143 only needs 160 cars. The remaining 52 cars will go to the J or M line. -Nick
Not quite.
The L currently needs 168 cars (21x8), and the R-143 order is for 212 cars as was stated. HOWEVER, not all of the 212 cars are expected to be in service at any given time. Some will be unavailable at any given time due to inspections and eventually SMS (overhauls/upgrades). After the L's 168 daily cars are accounted for (and that number might go up or down depending on ridership levels in the peak hour), whatever's left on a given day can be allocated to another line (J/Z or M, most likely M).
David
I thought I heard from someone here that one trainset has been allocated to the M, or at least has arrived. I don't know if they have used it in service on the M yet. Is this true that one set has been allocated to the M already?
Not to my knowledge. There are PLANS to run R-143s on the M on weekends, but as far as I am aware none have run there in customer service yet.
David
I am that someone and I posted that less than a week ago. As per the protocol used with the R142 and 142A, whenever new car engineering gives the ok, the train would do simulated M service before it goes into passenger service. I have no idea of a timetable.