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The preceeding was a test of the SubTalk clock based on that big droping ball on TV. If this post is not recieved just after midnight on Jan 1, 2002 then either Dave's server is off or we have been scammed by either the networks, the NYC Tourism Board or both.
Wow, good timing. 2 seconds. Earthcam was dead from the overload.
Earthcam?
Live stream of times square ball droping.
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/timessquare/
Take it easy. You're just on the money.
Have a happy, healthy, and above all, safe, New Year!
Happy new year to all!!!!!
May this year be a more normal year than last.
Same to you R30 from Amin.
I was in Boston over the weekend, my goal being to ride the entire T (which I did, except for the stations between Reservoir and Riverside).
--What are the old trolley cars laid up in the Boylston station? They are colored orange. Is Boston planning a transit museum?
--Why is the D branch of the Green Line priced more than other lines? The B, C and D inbound can all be accessed from Chestnut Hill Avenue and while it's $1 inbound on the B and C, it's $1.25 on the D (and $2.50 if I wanted to ride from Riverside). After all it seemed a much shorter ride on the D inbound, yet it costs extra.
Once you get away from downtown the Red and Blue lines seem rather more like commuter lines than subway lines, with large headways between stations.
I was hoping the E had been extended to Forest Hills so I cold transfer from the Orange but no luck there.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Re: Boylston Station cars. The PCC belongs to the T and is equiped with a pantograph. It has been used for fan trips, but not recently. The Type 5 belongs to Seashore and is on long term loan to the T. It also has been used for fan trips, but lacks a pantograph. It's less and less likely to be used again.
The D line fares are predicated on the high speed nature of this branch. And you only pay extra when you board, not when leaving. If you left the station on the Red Line in the Quincy and Braintree areas, you would have paid more than $1 there as well.
4 years to go on the E to Arborway..... it requires extensive rebuilding as well as ADA compliant stops. It's been out of service for 16 years and cannot be "grandfathered"
Unfoutnately the Type 5 5734 needs to go back to Seashore it has vestibule problems that need attention before they get worse. As far as the PCC 3295 no one knows whats the disposition of the car with the T's new management. Now that General Manager Bob Prince who was a friend to Seashore and railfans has retired.
In Boston, I was struck by the complete absence of scratchiti. I'm sure Boston has no lack of feral youth wishing to leave their mark on the world, so how does the MBTA deal with it?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've been on enough R142's on the 2 and the 6 to give something of an informed opinion. I've concluded I don't like them that much.
--The cars seem much more small and tight than the redbirds and the R62's (?) found elsewhere in the IRT. The harsh fluorescent lighting and the monochrome blue paint job are not a help in that regard. If I have time, when a crowded R142 #2 arrives, I'll just wait for a #1. I'll admit to having acquired a touch of claustrophobia as I get older.
--I rode a 142 on Thursday and while the automated sound system was just fine, when the conductor chimed in with a message, the PA shrieked and fed back just like a decades-old subway car!
Is it impossible to wire a sound system so it is audible and understandable or is that technology still limited? This was in a months-old subway car!
(Boston's, otoh, seemed a bit low in volume, though there's no loudness or feedback problems)
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can't take a nap on them as easily as in the old redbirds and R62s. Really sucks for the morning commute.
My Mom and Sis feel the same way (space and room inside the R142). According to Mom, she likes the "3 train" better than the "new 2 train". This was of course when the 3 was still running in BK. But right now her monrning and afternoon commutes consists of her "fast" local, the C train along Fulton.
Welcome to the Club, Kev.
They ride & sound just like these junkers we have here in los angeles on the red line subway to nowhere !!
by the way do the heaters work ?? At all ???
& I bet the AC Sucks in the summer !!!
LOL !!
"harsh fluorescent lighting" ...!!
Noticed this back in 2000 winter !!
& at #5 gun hill road at night how long do you have to STUMBLE in the DARK & wait while your eyes ADJ adjust to the dark again ??
""POOF"" like a photographers BRIGHT FLASH !!!
Yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, it's what I got to work with. The 'floor heaters' do work...if the car gets too warm, upstairs AC kicks in too. Just like the Redbirds. I'm out a car for a few days...have to travel on MY trainsets and the guys know I'm crazy about what is to be fixed in the car I'm riding in. It's a slow long ride up to my yard and the car desk has been generous in enabling me to make up any lateness...I have an excellent attendance record. When summer arrives again, we will 'feel the heat' with defective AC units...motor/compressor problems are out of reach without special hoisting equipment. CI Peter
From you description, it sounds like there was a problem somewhere in the microphone circuit.
What I don't understand is the overall style of the 142 cars - from the pictures I've seen, the interiors don't look pleasant at all and the exterior appearance of the car ends is bizzare.
-Robert King
they dont look good like ...
lol !
You missed your chance to be a Budd salesman...:0)
You mean St. Louis Car--that was an R-38.
Dan
american made ....
How much smaller is the R-142 passenger compartment than that in the other IRT cars?
The walls, I think, are slightly thicker. Four of the cars lose space due to the transverse cab (which is more than twice the width of a standard corner cab) but the other six gain space since they have no cab at all.
I do agree with your overall assessment. Unfortunately for us, they're here to stay.
For this year I have 6 wishes for all of us.
1.Love and prosperity for all
2.No terrorist attacks
3.For all of us to be better people
4.For the R143 to be a sucess
5.For Cortland Street to be fixed as fast as it can
6.Too go without a year of derailments
Happy Newyears too all.
add this to the list:
-No major incidents that kill hundreds of firemen.
Hello all- let me start out by wishing all a happy and healthy New Year!! Also by askign what I'm doing awake at 9AM on Jan. 1......
Anyhow, in the thread about rumored railfan window restrictions, another topic very and dear to my heart came up, something I thought deserved its own post.
There was some talk of the moral significance of fare evasion, and a few derisive comparisons of fare evasion with spitting on the sidewalk.
In fact, it's been my belief for many years that Rule Number One for use of public transit is that the legal fare must be paid in full, by each rider, virtually without exeception.
Why? well for several reasons:
1) First and foremost it, demonstrates RESPECT for the system.
2) As a corrolary to the above, when you pay your fare, you become in a sense, a shareholder in the system. You're far less likely to litter and/or vandalize something you've invested your hard-earned money into.
3) A person or persons entering the system with murder or other serious mayhem in mind probably has total contempt for people he sees as weaker than himself. He's not likely to stop and buy a token or MetroCard first. As the Chief of the former Transit Police Department, Bill Bratton understood this. When SERIOUS fare enforcement was undertaken in the early 90s, violent crime in the system dropped simultaneously. Who knows how many innocents escaped murder or lesser violence as a result?
(aside: does anyone think that the kids who murdered the toursit from Utah in 1990 paid their fare first? You know, the ass***** who claimed that the victim "fell on my knife")
4) This is not to say that some of the very young folks whov've posted here about misusing school passes are violent criminals. I would never make such an accusation against my fellow sub-talker. However, rules must be applied to all, whether you've got a rap sheet a mile long or are a Stuyvessant student selling rides from an unlimited pass at Chambers/West Broadway, or a stockbroker on Wall Street.
I do think that an afternoon in lockup would discourage you from ever manipulating your student Metro Card again. Execs in suits could be similarly deterred.
Finally, I also think there are too many passes given out. Some such as for students (to be used school days ONLY), for the very elderly (75+), and the obviously infirm are OK. But I see far too many people who look very strong with reduced fare passes. For all the reasons above, that's not appropriate either.
OK, there, I got that rant off my chest......
I believe though student cards should only be used on school days, they work for anyday Monday to Friday 5:30AM-8:30PM, even Thanksgiving and Christmas.
I think half fare discounts for the elderly should only be good during off peak hours. Children get no discounts at all, unless they have school passes. And my child's school pass does not allow her to take the subway -- half fare passes are bus only.
Do you put money on the half-fare pass or do you dip that in first, then another card or put in exact change of half a fare?
I don't know wheather you put money but if you swipe it at a bus and it is empty it will tell you deposit 75 cents.
A student pass cannot have money put in. Therefore, buildmorelines description applies.
I know! Note: I never gave a swipe of my card to anyone else but me.
As a student, I personally think the whole system is screwed up. If they don't want you using a metrocard on a certain day, they should make it well known. They have the ability to make metrocard readers reject a card on certain times or days, so they should use it. The only valid reason I can think of for not doing so is so that cops can rack up their ticket count and fill their quotas.
Furthermore, the rules aren't specified anywhere. When I was caught for using it last week to go to the library, I didn't know that it could only be used on days when school was in session. I thought using it for any school-related activity (going to the library to work on a term paper) was valid. If the turnstile had simply rejected it, the matter would've been closed, and I would've used the normal metrocard I keep in my wallet.
I have no problem following rules and paying my fare, but when they set the system up to catch people, that's just entrapment.
Furthermore, the rules aren't specified anywhere.
Obviously, things have changed since I last used a TA school pass in 1959. My pass at that time had the rules and regulations printed on the back of the card.
I have never got in trouble for using it but bus drivers do give me a hard time, that supposedly school is closed, Racists.
What the MTA ought to do is not just that, but cut out this half-fare/reduced fare nonsense already. I went to High School at Fordham Prep and because I lived in Norwood I supposedly "lived too close" to qualify for a reduced fare pass. When you barely have enough in your pocket for lunch on a given day, that's still a bit of change for a 14 year-old. Afer that first year, I think I used that pass once, maybe twice. It wasn't worth my while. I just did the 25-30 minute walk from Southern Blvd to Perry Ave.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the school day/week doesn't end at 3:00 or even at 5:30 anymore. I have sisters who work in "extended day" or afterschool programs where kids are pretty much in school until almost 7 or 8 at night. The lines are blurring between the end of the school day or even the week.
The computers that figure out whether you qualify for a pass use a radius from the school. They don't take into account the street layout, bodies of water, and topography.
That's why I suggest a "flat pass" for all Students within the 5 boroughs, Long Island and Westchester.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the school day/week doesn't end at 3:00 or even at 5:30 anymore.
I know exactly what you mean. My school forces us to do extra-cirricular activities. Some are held in school, while others, you need to travel for.
<<<"I thought using it for any school-related activity (going to the library to work on a term paper) was valid. If the turnstile had simply rejected it, the matter would've been closed, and I would've used the normal metrocard I keep in my wallet.
I have no problem following rules and paying my fare, but when they set the system up to catch people, that's just entrapment.">>>
This makes a lot of sense. I wasn't complaining about students using their passes to go to the library. Morally, I find that quite legitimate.
I was referring to people selling rides, shorting bus fares, and/or simply jumping turnstiles
It's been almost three years since I went to school in Brooklyn (E.R. Murrow HS), but IIRC Private schools also got Student MetroCards. Some private schools do not close for the same holidays that public schools do, and so they would need to have their student cards be active on those days. I'm not sure how much time and energy the TA wishes to expend on figuring out which cards are at which schools that observe which holidays and shut them off selectively, or just to leave the system as-is. Of course, I could be wrong about the private-school thing, but I'm fairly certain I remember a few of my friends who went to private school taking the train (D/Q Brighton Line) to the city with me on holidays (both official and non-official :) ).
On another note.. I remember the "three-swipe" limitation being quite a hassle for us on those "non-official" holidays we used to take. We would have to figure out how we would get everywhere we wanted to go, using no more than three swipes, with associated transfers.
--
Ian P.
>>>Hello all- let me start out by wishing all a happy and healthy New Year!! Also by askign what I'm doing awake at 9AM on Jan. 1......
<<<
UMM... you haven't been to sleep yet? 8-)
I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing up at 1100
Peace,
ANDEE
Bravo! A very sensible post. May others follow your example.
Thank You.
Finally, I also think there are too many passes given out. Some such as for students (to be used school days ONLY), for the very elderly (75+), and the obviously infirm are OK. But I see far too many people who look very strong with reduced fare passes.
I believe federal law requires that off-peak discounts be made available to anyone over age 65(?). Not everyone who looks very strong is very strong.
I wish there were some way for the TA to offer half-fare passes for temporary or recurring disabilities. I've paid many an extra fare due to the occasional acute pain in my left knee, which is normally not present but, when it is, is very painful and lasts for the rest of the day (at least). I don't see how this could be done without leaving the system open to abuse.
(I believe federal law requires that off-peak discounts be made available to anyone over age 65(?).)
But the TA makes the discounts available on peak as well. The elderly get so many privileges these days, regardless of need, that it amounts to child abuse.
>>> I wish there were some way for the TA to offer half-fare passes for temporary or recurring disabilities. I've paid many an extra fare due to the occasional acute pain in my left knee, which is normally not present but, when it is, is very painful and lasts for the rest of the day (at least). <<<
I think I have mentioned to you before that you are probably eligible for a disability fare. Recurring disabilities are not temporary. Someone with arthritis or a heart condition may not have pain all the time, but has a continuing disability. A temporary disability such as a broken leg from an accident could be accommodated in the same way temporary handicapped placards are given to motorists. In California, one of the ways to qualify for a reduced fare pass is to have a handicapped placard. In New York, even if you do not own a car, you can probably obtain a placard which can be used in any car you are riding in.
Tom
Someone with arthritis or a heart condition may not have pain all the time, but has a continuing disability.
Quite true. I had an argument with a police officer a year or so ago who was quite convinced that my handicapped placard must have been fraudulently obtained, since I walked back to my car with no difficulty. At the time I had parked it there, however (some three hours earlier), I was barely able to walk from the car to the theater, even with Jr.'s assistance. Logic (or charity - it was Christmas day) prevailed, and I didn't have to deal with a ticket, but the lack of knowledge by the officer was surprising.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Logic (or charity - it was Christmas day) prevailed, and I didn't have to deal with a ticket, but the lack of knowledge by the officer was surprising <<<
In California (where there has been much fraudulent use of handicapped placards) when one is issued a placard, he also gets a registration form to carry in his wallet which has his name and address and the serial number assigned to the placard. Any officer seeing someone entering or leaving a vehicle with a placard in use can ask to see the registration form. Anyone not having the form in his own name gets a BIG ticket and the placard is confiscated. If the form was just left at home, the person gets the placard back and does not have to pay the fine when he goes to court.
Tom
That is eminently fair.
North Carolina has the same, and I had the registration card in the glove box. That wasn't the issue - he felt that I must have forged the medical paperwork to obtain it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Once upon a time, I drove into a handicapped slot, hung the card up, and bounced out of the car with no difficulty whatsoever. Someone looked at me like I had three heads, and made some sort of comment, so I explaied to her that I was a Registered Nurse. She looked at me like I had four heads, but that was her problem.
A few minutes later, I came out of the doctor's office escorting my patient, who was severely crippled, and could not move but with obvious pain and difficulty, and had to be carefully assisted into the vehicle.
I looked back at this lady again, just to see if she had taken a count on how many heads she had.
: ) Elias
She had one head but the skull was unoccupied.
There is nothing wrong with a cop being suspicious. How does he know if you received it by fraudulant means or not without starting a conversation. Years ago, when my mother was still alive, she had a handicap permit after she had several strokes and a heart condition. Her boyfriend was the picture of health who played racketball every day. Yet he used my mothers car and parked in the handicap spots with the permit all the time!!!
Jeff, I'm annoyed about it because he wasn't satisfied with the registration card for the permit, even though it matched my driver's license and the registration for the vehicle - he presumed that, since I didn't appear handicapped, I must have filed a fraudulent application with the DMV to have obtained the permit. And, to top it off, this incident occurred in New Jersey, while I have North Carolina plates, permit, and driver's license.
Basically, he was just being an arrogant SOB. I'm sure you have run into a few, probably even within your own precinct, over the years. I have two brothers-in-law who are retired police officers and two nephews who are currently on the force in Michigan (one a county mountie, one a state trooper); three of them are good folks but one is the epitome of bad attitude, both as an officer and as a person. I'm hopeful that his latest wife will prevail and convince him to change professions, not just because she wants him to find a safer profession, but because the citizens of their area of Michigan will benefit as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks. If you did mention this to me, I missed your message.
In any case, the point is moot. From the application form: "From whatever cause, the person is unable to move about without a walker, wheelchair, wheelchair stroller, a crutch, crutches, or a cane at all times. The word 'unable' is used in its literal sense. The fact that one of these mechanical aids facilitates movements is not sufficient." Even when the pain sets in, I don't use a walker, wheelchair, wheelchair stroller, a crutch, crutches, or a cane. I wouldn't qualify even the pain were persistent.
Interesting that they are that restrictive. I'm like you... at one time I used crutches whenever the pain got bad, but now I've got other problems that preclude the use of crutches, so when the pain gets bad I usually just don't go.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In my case, when the pain gets bad, I've usually already gone and I have to limp my way back home. I once deliberately bypassed my station and backtracked by bus to shorten my walk by two blocks.
>>> From the application form <<<
I read the application form you posted and it is quite a bit tougher than what is in effect here in California. Here if you qualify for an automobile handicapped placard, you automatically qualify for reduced rates on public transportation. In addition to the things stated in the MTA application, anything that reduces one's ability to walk, such as severe arthritis, heart disease, or serious respiratory disease (certified by a doctor) qualifies a person for a handicapped placard.
One could argue from a philosophical point of view that there is really no reason to provide the disabled with a reduced fare on public transit, since unlike the vehicle placard which may reduce the need for walking, a reduced fare does not in itself assist the handicapped person to get on or off a public transit vehicle, and the public transit vehicle does not make any special stops to reduce walking. The reduced fare for the handicapped is really left from the days that stereotyped all disabled persons as being unfit to work and therefore poor due to no fault of their own and thus worthy of charity.
Tom
<<<"One could argue from a philosophical point of view that there is really no reason to provide the disabled with a reduced fare on public transit, since unlike the vehicle placard which may reduce the need for walking, a reduced fare does not in itself assist the handicapped person to get on or off a public transit vehicle, and the public transit vehicle does not make any special stops to reduce walking. The reduced fare for the handicapped is really left from the days that stereotyped all disabled persons as being unfit to work and therefore poor due to no fault of their own and thus worthy of charity.">>>
Thanks, Tom. I was trying to make this (as well as other points)argument in my original post.
Handicapped fares on public transit strike mas yet another entitlement. Many, many handicapped/disabled people hold regular jobs. Let 'em pay the full fare.
I mean, if some intermitent discomfort qualifes for a reduced fare, what about diabetes? Asthma? HIV? Hypertension? (I got that one), Thyroid trouble? Chronic Fatigue? Ringworm? Jock itch?
Where does it stop?
MTA is right to be strict about this.
Unless you REALLY can't work (due to illnes or extreme age), PAY THE FARE.
>>> Many, many handicapped/disabled people hold regular jobs. Let 'em pay the full fare. <<<
Although it is true that many handicapped people hold regular jobs, it is probably also true that if you compared the population eligible for disabled fares to the general population, you would find a lower average income. The same with the elderly who are eligible for discounts. There are some well to do elderly people also. I do not think that the TA wants to get into means testing for the discounted fares though. After all, someone like Stevie Wonder is not likely to be using the subway at full or discounted price, so the number of disabled persons who would want to use the public transportation system but earn a median wage or higher may be too small to make it worthwhile to use any means test.
And the disabled may have to use more public transit than the able bodied. If every step is painful, a person will not walk two blocks, but take a bus for one or two stops. A few weeks ago I posted to Bus Talk about a single day when I rode sixteen buses in order to transact business in Los Angeles. More than half of them were short trips (less than five blocks) that I would have walked when I was in better health.
>>> I mean, if some intermitent discomfort qualifes for a reduced fare, what about diabetes? Asthma? HIV? Hypertension? (I got that one), Thyroid trouble? Chronic Fatigue? Ringworm? Jock itch? <<<
What disabilities deserve a reduced fare is a different question than whether there should be any reduced fares at all. The criteria for New York's reduced fare seems quite strict (intermittent discomfort doesn't make it). It all depends on the integrity of the doctors certifying the disability though. There was quite a scandal here when it was found that many of the UCLA varsity football players obtained and were using handicapped placards to get preferred parking on campus.
Tom
Work has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you use the subway only for long rides to and from work, but some of us travel shorter distances on occasion. I've paid many a fare for what would be an easy walk if not for the condition of my knee.
Here's another way of looking at it: The average ride of the disabled is shorter than the average ride of the population as a whole (because the population as a whole walks for short trips while the disabled doesn't). The disabled use less of the system per ride, so they should pay less per ride.
(Notice that if the subway charged fares by distance, the point would be moot.)
General discomfort should not qualify. Difficulty in walking should be the only criterion.
I wouldn't object if the discount were only available off-peak (which is all federal law requires).
Guessing that you commute regularily, why not get a monthly unlimited pass?
Arti
Good guess, but it doesn't hold. On average, a $15 MetroCard lasts me 3-4 weeks, with maybe one or two Fun Passes thrown in.
The instant I find an excuse to commute by train (or bus) five days a week, my credit card will see a $63 charge.
Star-Ledger article by Joe Malinconico, staff transit reporter, echoes what Subwaybuff told us at the outset, that discontinuance of discount fares results in an 89 percent fare increase for some riders, while the increase is described by NJT as being 10 percent.
Fare increases for NJT riders are LONG overdue. But, going this route is not a good thing.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, so fares haven't increased in 10 years, but that does not mean they are LONG overdue. NJ Transit has the second or third highest fare structure in the country already.
I buy a monthly from Jersey Avenue to NY Penn which costs $217. So if it increases to $239, big deal. I would love to see less crowded trains, a better on-time performance, and professional crews, but we know that is not going to happen. 10% is not going to get me in my car or on a Suburban Bus to Port Authority.
It's not the riders who buy the monthly pass that will be burdened, but the people who purchased the Round-Trip Excursion tickets during off-peak times. That is resulting in an 89% increase for some. Also, the fare from Newark Penn to NY Penn is going from $2.50 to $3.30 to match the fare from Newark Broad St. to NY Penn.
Gee, what does the fare to Newark Airport increase to? As if it isn't high enough as it is.
It is all political. Jeffrey Warsh is in his position because of politics, and they are getting DeFrancesco to sign off on the deal before he leaves office. And does McGreevey say anything? Nope. He is on the sidelines just like the politician he is.
It gets worse in the fine print. Annual fare hikes will be set by an inflation rate - "A Zone of Freedom Rate" set by DOT - which is collusion. Also, subsequent fare hikes other than those to oneway fares will not require hearings. They will be basically an unregulated public utility with monopolistic pricing. This is also the state with the 4th lowest gas tax in the country at 10.5 cents. Rail fares are slightly behind ConnDOT's now (with a measly 43% farebox recovery) will catapult to be far ahead of them. I smell corruption.
New Jersey Politics = Corruption.
I thought they left the Newark Airport fare alone, as it was already pegged as a premium fare. Don't quote me on it, though.
Is this the only way NJT has to raise more money for capital projects, and pay off its revenue?
I really despise the elimination of discount fares.
How much are monthly and weekly tickets affected by?
I believe that in the ultimate agreement, the round trip excursion discounts were retained. Monthly/weekly discounts were never on the table.
I doubt NJT ever really thought they'd eliminate the RTX's or reduce the discount for the handicapped. But when you're negotiating a fare increase, throwing things like that out there to keep the focus off of the real prize seem to work everytime.
CG
Fares do not pay for capital projects.
Am I correct in assuming that since a Sunday schedule is in effect today, the R-143s will be adhering to the Sunday departure times from Rockaway Parkway?
You are correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
6736-40 and 6786-90 are in service as of yesterday 12/31/01.
A side note - The Artwork has changed. Cars 6536-40 have received images of a whale. Someone read Moby Dick?
It would also appear that additional cars are receiveing the frames for holding those pieces of artwork.
-Stef
Stef: Isn't Moby Dick buried in Woodlawn Cemetary?.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have no clue. Anyone here know?
-Stef
This posting is just a collection of some general thoughts regarding equiptment acquisitions by Transit Museums.(NOTE I did not say trolley museums) Trolley museums sprang up after World War II although at least one, Seashore, started before that. The war provided a watershed of sorts for streetcars but once it was over bustitutions resumed in earnest. Concerned railfans wanting to preserve parts of our heritage began trolley museums in order to preserve some of these cars. Unfortunately these early volunterrs were confronted by "Hobson's Choice." Acquire the car even though you have no place to store it,let alone run it or let it be scrapped and gone forever. Some of the more forsighted museums like Branford also began acquiring rapid transit cars even though in those early days "subway fans" were looked upon with dismay by many of the "trolley fans."
It was also necessary if not essential to provide some kind of operating service for the general public to attract non-railfans and generate revenue. Since virtually all labor was volunteer, construction and restoration work proceeded slowly and many of the cars deteriorated past the point of no return. Branford has made tremendous efforts to build car barns and get as much of the equiptment as possible under cover. If you have ever been there for the "Autumn in New York" or "Trolley Parade" events you would be amazed at the amount of operating equiptment,both trolley and rapid transit.
I have been to a number of museums which are so clogged with deteriorating cars that its almost impossible to view the collection. Some of them have acquired raipd transit cars even though they are totally out of place with the museum's goal and the museum has no practical way to operate these cars.
The Batimore Trolley Museum is an excellent example of a focused collections. All of there streetcars ran at one time or another on the streets of Baltimore.
The collection at Branford is much more extensive and comprehensive covering horsecars to modern subway cars. However the use of rapid transit cars imposes some restirctions on there operation. They arrive and depart from a high level platform in the yard area. I believe that due to weight resrictions they cannot operate over the bridge to Sprague Station but even if they could there are no facilties for high level loadings there. Also although many trolley cars could mu they usually ran as solitary beasts. Subway and El cars are far more gregarious preferring the company of their fellows. So its desirable to run them in mu when pratical. Two years ago during the "Autumn in New York" event Branford ran a three car train of an IRT Deckroof Hi-VM,an IND R-9, and an IRT Lo-VM. The first time that a three car train had run in the museum's history.
All three of thses cars could run by themselves though which make the married pair cars such as the M-1s less than practical since you must have both cars to run. Also the railroad mu's might be just a little too big. A pair of M-1's measures about 170 feet and both cars are twins of the other. As a fellow once observed at a topless bar."When you've seen one, you've seen them both."
I really don't know where you could preserve railroad size electric mu's. Possibly at one of the big "railroad museums."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Do you suppose that you could store one in your backyard and I would store the other one? My lot is 100' wide!
I guess that it would be up to us to maintain them though, wouldn't it?
How can I store one?
Karl: Maybe we could start a "Save the M-1s Foundation" and print pictures on the side of milk cartons asking for donations.
Larry,RedbirdR33
We'd need a better advertising means down here. Milk cartons are all but extinct in this area. Everything seems to have been converted to plastic bottles.
How about a blurb on income tax forms specifying a $1.00 of the refund to be earmarked for the "G & B Save the M-1s Foundation".
I'll volunteer to act as Treasurer!
Karl: That sounds like a good idea. The only problem I foresee is trying to operate the pair. We would have to get a 300 mile long extension cord to connect the two cars. Maybe we could arrange some kind of house-to-house connection using the homes of all the sub-talkers along the route.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS Glad to hear that you received Volume 3. The first volume deals with the IRT and is in a larger format. I believe that they used an offset printing process but I'm not sure.
I guess that long extension cord is not too practical.
Would you consider just having a static display?
PS Are you saying that Part I is 8 1/2 X 11? I've never even seen it so it could be "big little book" size, and I wouldn't know!
Karl: Part 1 of the Cunningham History measures about 8 1/2 x 11 inches. There are 104 pages.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So it is larger and apparently has more info in it than the other two, since there are more pages. Does it also have that troublesome "perfect" binding?
You have really whet my appetite to get that last book now. I will really have to be watching for it in 2002!
Karl: The binding isn't so good but then my copy is 26 years old and has seen some use. If you can get a used copy in otherwise good condition I would say $20-$30 would be fair. If it is in mint condition then about $45-50 would not be unreasonable.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, Thanks for the advice! I'll certainly be hunting for it.
Karl/Larry,
Your idea has just a little bit of merit, i.e. Branford was started in the 40s by a small group of guys who bought a 1 1/2 of track and one car. If you can find a group of like minded friends that would be a start.
Mr rt__:^)
Larry, nice post.
All I can say is that a BIG museum facility like ILM (Illionis Railway Museum) or perhaps Danbury, could handle something the size of an M-1 set. Branford couldn't really even handle a married set of B-Division equipment w/o it sitting unprotected in the elements.
The MP-54 at Seashore that I mentioned in a previous post also sits outside, a similar victim to space limitations.
It is very difficult to find room for one or two 75 foot (or more) cars, when a museum already has dozens of smaller -- yet rarer -- equipment in its collection. It's a tough choice in some cases, but realistically most museums would want to preserve the older (and smaller) cars since they have more history attached to them than the newer and larger stainless steel equipment.
BMTman
<< All I can say is that a BIG museum facility like ILM (Illionis Railway Museum)>>
IRM, not ILM. I'd love to see an M-1 set there but it's highly unlikely, since the vast majority of equipment types at the IRM ran in the Chicago area and the M-1s certainly did not. There is some equipment there that did not run in Chicago (they have a SEPTA Brill rapid-transit car, a PC (nee NYC) S Motor, and a PRR GG1) but this equipment is in the minority.
---Dave S.
A pair of M-1's would burn down the substations. I'd rather see Shoreline aquire the forlorn MP54 at Seashore or the sole surviving arch-roof one that became a restaurant in Watermill.
What do you mean by "burn down the substations".
The M-1s are likely to consume more power than a trolley museum's substation can provide.
David
We already have to be careful when we operate the subway cars at Branford for this reason.
Mr rt__:^)
IRM seems like the only place with enough space
But IRM has factions opposed to non-midwest equipment. I'm still waiting to see if they are really going to acquire the R26 pair.
I am a volunteer in the Electric Car Department at IRM, and I find this to be a very interesting discussion.
First of all, IRM is planning to acquire a pair of Redbirds. While it is true that there are factions opposed to doing this, and to acquiring more non-Midwest traction equipment, I would not overstate this. As a combination traction/steam-road museum, there are factions "opposed" to any sort of traction at IRM! The important thing is that IRM will acquire the Redbirds, and will continue to acquire, restore and operate electric equipment.
One thing that has been totally ignored in this discussion is that cars like the M-1's are almost completely useless to modern museum operations. While it is highly desirable to save an example of each generation of car, if not every type of car, the usefulness of the equipment must become a factor in acquisition of more than one of something. Modern subway equipment is, in some way, useless for revenue-producing operation at museums because of one factor: its inability to be operated via overhead wire. All operating traction museums use overhead wire, and the prohibitive costs of operating - and insuring - third rail make installation of such an impossible proposition.
Most museums that own subway equipment have bypassed this problem by mounting unprototypical trolley poles on cars that never had them (Branford, Seashore, and IRM are all examples of this). Some of the more modern subway equipment, though, is constructed in a way that makes this impossible. I'm not sure exactly how M-1's are built, but if the roofs are stainless steel it's a safe bet that mounting trolley poles on them would be a project that would be irreversibly damaging to the historical fabric of the car. Most traction museums worth their salt will pause, if not balk, at the prospect of doing such damage to their equipment.
The reason that IRM has half a dozen North Shore interurban cars, and that Seashore has half a dozen Boston semiconvertibles, is because these cars make good "workhorses" that can be used to carry people year after year. Subway cars generally cannot do this, and as such traction museums often acquire the minimum number of them required to give an overview of the evolution of the equipment.
Is there a point to this rant? Yes. Well, I hope so! I would be surprised if any of the traditional traction museums were to save a pair of M-1's when they are retired. I think that we will be lucky if even one is saved in a museum, and I doubt that once they leave NYCTA rails they will ever move under their own power again. The only solution I can even hypothetically think of is for an organization like the New York Transit Museum to somehow expand its role, put more cars on display, and perhaps even begin to operate cars for museum-goers. This may be impossible for even the most intrepid and imaginative supporters of NYTM to accomplish, but we can hope that it will happen.
Thank you for a very illuminating post.
I wonder if a static display would work somewhere in the NY area, or perhaps in Philadelphia, where Budd was headquartered...
If a pair of LIRR M-1s are to be preserved at a museum, then the one that comes to mind is the Railroad Museum of LI. Why ? first it's in Long Island. Second, the RRMLI may have some pull with the MTA or LIRR to donate a pair when time comes for candidates from the fleet to be retired. The first M-1s from 1968 #9001-9002 would be ideal, considering they aren't involved in a wreck by then.
The idea of a pair of M-1s being preserved at Branford is laughable at best. Attend their next board meeting and suggest that become embarassed. When the R-9 when up there in the 70s, I heard there was some balking and I assume the same for the R-17 too.
To those on this board who refuse to accept reality who feel it's some other museum's responsibility to purchase and transport retired equipment, let them dig deep in their pockets and come with the big bucks needed for acquizition and transport of these railcars. This does run into the thousands mind you.
A pair of M-1s at Branford ? I Don't think so. I'd rather see the Brooklyn "Peter Witt" streetcar restored then see another Redbird at Branford. One Redbird representing SMEE equipment is good enough. Focus on long idle equipment needing to be restored rather than dream about preserving this car or that car.
To Frank Hicks of IRM,
In your quest to acquire a pair of R-26 Redbirds, I certainly wish you luck. There is some ongoing thing here that retired equipment with asbestos has to be abated. Removal of asbestos would probably destroy the car. The Redbirds being sunk off Delaware? Yes they have asbestos in them, But being wet, the asbestos is not a threat. Only when it's dry and airborn. I was told that of all the Redbirds, the R-26s are LOADED with asbestos. Once again, good luck sir!
Bill "Newkirk"
[A pair of M-1s at Branford ? I Don't think so. I'd rather see the Brooklyn "Peter Witt" streetcar restored ...]
Bill you make a good point. That Brooklyn Peter Witt would fit right in with regular ops at Branford, as would PCC #27 that was just acquired. This subway railfan thinks there's also a place for a few elevated/subway cars, but an M-1/M-2 or RDC now I'll have to agree with you.
Mr rt__:^)
Thurston: Another point against the M-1's is that always were maintenance-intensive. I remember working as the am tower director at HM on the Hudson Line and having five trains in timetable order unable to move because of one problem or another. Metro-North has done a great job keeping them going but are really need to be pampered.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, that's another thing that brings to mind a yellow-colored fruit when discussing the M-1's.
They were loaded with problems from day one, but the LIRR had a VERY old fleet of MP-54s, and were itching to replace them. And don't forget the 'burb commuters were eager for the new, shiny cars so they could feel like they were really getting more bang for their buck.
Anyhow, aside from some minor historical significance, I doubt many people will 'shed a tear' for the retirement of the M-1s.
BMTman
I'd PAY to go to a museum that had some M-1's as long as they had Bill Ronan tied to the nose. :)
Doug: Your quite right. They do not have comfortable seating. Those subway type doors admit cold air right into the cars and the lavatories stink no matter how much we clean them.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Well, my grandson thought the triple was a good place to recline while doing his homework on the way in to see the Miracle at 34th Street (at Macy's) last month ... plus they do have a railfan window & go 60 to 70 MPH ... can't do that in a subway anymore :-(
They have grown on me a little due to going back and forth for 11 1/2 years in them. Same thing has happened to me & trolleys ... did about 90 hours operating them last year.
Mr rt
Mr. T.: Welcome back from your holiday vacation!
I'd have to agree that probably the BEST feature of the M-1's was their railfan windows. I must admit I got some GREAT shots of LIRR trackage/equipment from the front on more than a few occassions.
(So I did find one positive note to say about the cars after all.) ;-D
BMTman
You DO realize though that you've just put Unca Salaam onto a BRAND NEW mission ... and in TD's neck of the woods too. :)
What's interesting in this M-1 discussion is that one other "trolley musuem" (Pennsylvania Trolley Musuem, aka Arden) has added a Budd "Almond Joy" car (one of the single units) to their collection.
It now sits on a display track, power to the motors is disconnected, but the car is lighted and the aux stuff works. It will never be operational, even though it could run on their Pittsburgh tracks.
Why?
1. PTM will not put trolley poles on it.
2. The car draws more power than their substation can produce.
3. They got it because it ran in Pensylvania.
Wnat if they tried to run the "Almond Joy" with only 2 of the 4 tractions motors. Would they have the amperage then ?
AFAIK they have 300 volt series paired motors just like SMEE
cars. Disconnecting one motor group would actually _increase_
the current. It would be possible to adjust the acceleration
rates to reduce current consumption, but the car would be an
absolute dog.
"1. PTM will not put trolley poles on it."
This does create a problem with the unusual "humps" on the "almond joy" roof.
Bill "Newkirk"
The only solution I can even hypothetically think of is for an organization like the New York Transit Museum to somehow expand its role, put more cars on display, and perhaps even begin to operate cars for museum-goers
Just curious, the biggest subway cars are, I think 75 feet. How long are the M1's, and would they fit in any of the subway tunnels. They must be wider also, I assume.
M-1s are 85 feet long. I'm not sure about the width, though I think they're a bit wider than the 10 feet of BMT-IND subway cars. It would be a tight fit, at best, in subway tunnels.
David
If they are to survive anywhere after their LIRR careers, it will have to be SIR.
Well, it seems from all the posts that stainless steel cars could be practically preserved only as static displays.
That's OK with me.
However, I was wondering- is it a fact that the M-1s are on the way out as a car class? Or have jsut a few dud units been retired?
The M-1s should be with us for some time to come. The next class of emu to be retired will be the ex-New York Central 1100 Series or ACMU's. They will go out probably sometime this or next year when the M-7s arrive.
Larry,RedbirdR33
1100 series? In service with LIRR? What do they look like?
Nope, none at LIRR. They look a bit more boxy in the front then the Ms.
Mr rt__:^)
Ron: Maybe I should clarify that post. The LIRR has M-1's and M-3's.
MNRR has M-1a's and M-3a's as well as M-2's,M-4's and M-6's. MNRR also has the 1100 series mu built for the NYC which they call ACMU's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. I don't think I've ever seen one. I'll check the pictures of rolling stock on this site...
Well, I looked. I didn't realize those weren't pulled coaches.
Thanks to the help of SubTalker Phil Hom we were able to purchase a copy of the C & D Part III The Independent System and City Ownership.
My wife gave it to me for Christmas, and I just finished my second reading of it. It really is a great book for history, facts and figures about the IND.
Several years ago, another SubTalker, Larry RedbirdR33, located a Part II for me Rapid Transit in Brooklyn. I must say that this one was even better, but perhaps it was because my first interest was always the BMT.
I am only missing Part I now The Manhattan Els and the IRT.
I sure would appreciate it if any SubTalker knows of a copy for sale at a fair price, that they would contact me.
Thanks A Lot!
How do I get to Harriman Station on the Port Jervis line? I understand that I have to get to Hoboken Terminal via PATH, but what do I do from Hoboken? I'm confused because that line seems to be split up. The southern half is greyed out (NJ Transit), while the upper half is considered to be Metro-North. Are there 2 seperate systems that run that track? Would they use NJ Transit equipment or MTA Metro-North equipment?
ah the Balkanization of service! The tracks are NJT to the State Line so the equipment is a mix of NY owned and regular NJT cars/engines all built to NJT specs.
At Hoboken, just look or ask for the train to Port Jervis.
Be careful! Train # 53, the 1:20 pm from Hoboken on weekdays, only goes as far as Middletown, N.Y. This train makes Harriman, but does not go as far as Port Jervis. You wouldn't want "Go N Train" to wait an extra few hours at Hoboken because he passed up a train he could have taken!
Thanks for the lookout Fishbowl :-)
It's a thru NJT train. The MTA portion is transparent to the passenger except a seperate ticket coupon is dispnsed from Suffern-North. Either authority's equipment and engines is fair game and may be mixed.
So what you're saying is you would need to get off at Suffern to buy a new ticket to continue the trip? This is almost as confusing as how to get to Lynbrook on the LIRR. From Jamaica, there's the Far Rockaway branch which turns off at Valley Stream. Then the Long Beach and Babylon branch seems to come out of nowhere at Lynbrook. =O
No, at one time when you would buy a ticket from the NJT vending machines for Newark-Port Jervis (for example) you would get one that read Newark-Suffern and another that read Suffern-Port Jervis. I don't believe that's the case any longer though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NJT operates the service, then then bill MNRR for the portion of service that occurs in New York State. The cars are all common pooled, so you will find MNRR equipment on any of the north side NJT service, although NJT tries to keep them on the Port Jervis Line. This does not always happen.
NJT operates the service, then then bill MNRR for the portion of service that occurs in New York State.
Where does MNRR get profits to pay NJT. If people buy tickets in Hoboken, wouldn't they be paying NJT? Then NJT collects money from MNRR?
This is MNRR "West of the Hudson" service operated by NJT. Do you think the line turns a profit?? hehe.... ANY LINE Turns a profit?
MNRR (in truth the MTA) pays NJT to run the service and loans some of equipment as well.
I don't know how they do the accounting with the tickets. The Metro-North cars are on a 90 day major cleaning cycle, while NJT's is 120-day, so there is some attempt to segregate the cars with the incompatible intervals.
The track Suffern and north is NS, the crews are NJT, the signs are MTA. Four east-of-Hudson blue sripe cars are now in the pool.
The equipment pool is used on any Hoboken based train not using Waterfront Connection. Have been many times on board MTA car while traveling from Newark to Summit.
Now on eBay:
Item 1057189372 - Huge 46 by 58 inch 1969 Subway Map
Item 1057184660 - PATH Hudson Tubes Letter re World Trade Center construction
Item 1057182122 - BMT Surface Division Money Bag
Caught the Port Auth film about the building of the WTC on CNN the other day, was very nice.
Mr rt__:^)
There was some police activity today at Continental. It happened aboard a northbound F train(R-32). The F sat on the express track while an E train just behind crawled into the station so that it's front doors would be on the platform. T/O opened the crew door and passengers walked through the train (also R-32) to the front car and onto the platform at Contintental. They were able to connect with n/b E and F trains which were rerouted to the local track until the police investigation was taken care of.
Did they lead the passengers out of the E train or had them walk into the F train and exit?
They lead them right onto the station platform.
Continental is a long station. There is room for a 10 car R-32, and still space for another train to pull into the station right behind it and get at least 1/2 a car in. And that's just what happened. Once the second train got his front car into the station, he opened the crew door, and people walked through the train, and right onto the station platform.
Thank you.
#93 BOS-PHL 01/10/02 THU 9.45am (arr. 3.27pm) fare $71.00
#43 PHL-CLE 01/11/02 FRI 6.35am (arr. 6.02pm) fare $11.70
#30 CLE-WAS 01/12/02 SAT 2.12am (arr. 1.23pm) fare $45.20
Pick up and drop off anywhere along the route is OK. No alternative times available (because I have to be in Washington for Jan. 12.) Suitable for students on winter vacation, or anyone who happens to have the time off.
Lexcie
Two footnotes:
(1) Have to book by Jan 3, 2001.
(2) #93 could be #95 the inland route train, if anyone wants to board on the inland route.
Lexcie
Both #93 and #95 operate via the shore line, not the inland route.
#145 operates via the inland route.
Michael
2001 was good for me for railfanning. Here's what I rode this year:
Rode for the first time:
Miami Metromover
Seattle Monorail and Heritage Tolley
Sao Paulo Metro
Chicago L
London Underground and Docklands light rail
Rode again:
Sao Paulo Metro (later in the year)
NYC subway
Atlanta MARTA (duh)
Today was Muslims Rajatwunablaan, which is some kind of festival where people have to buy lots of stuff. I was at Star Market today and lots of Muslim people lined up to buy Oranges -- forming an Orange Line -- apparently you needed lots of oranges to please the Rajatwunablaan Gods, or something. I wasn't entire sure, the guy I spoke to didn't speak English very well. He just kept saying "Rajatwunablaan, rajatwunablaan," and pointing at the sky. I've never seen so many people forming a line for oranges in my life. Both Star Markets I went to was out of Oranges by 3pm.
I'm wishing everyone on Sub Talk a happy and healthy 2002. Let us all say good-bye and good riddance to 2001 since it is now history. I'm not sorry to see 2001 go. I'm glad to see that 2002 is here. Once again I wash you all on Sub Talk a happy and healthy New Year.
#3 West End Jeff
Where was Hudson Terminal in relationship to the current WTC PATH station? What streets was it under?
Check out the Path / Hudson & Manhattan Railroad section of this website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks like it was immediately west of Church St., underneath what was (prior to 9/11) a private "street" cordoned off for security reasons.
The shell of what was Hudson Terminal became a loading dock area under the plaza between 4 and 5 WTC, west of Church St. This was once under the old Hudson Terminal buildings. Its depth in PATH days was 35 feet. Don't know if this was changed in its latter-day re-incarnation.
To connect from the inbound tube to the rebuilt (actually new) station, it sounds like there will be a new reverse curve directly under the former site of 4 WTC. The old shell as was would be too small for contemporary operations.
With any luck, service will be restored in three phases: 2003 to Exchange Place; 2004 to (1971) WTC which will get temporary access; 2005 to Church Street. An extensive system of walkalators will connect from Church St. to neighboring subway lines and the WFC.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
A question for SubTalk...
What is the normal operating speed of a train that is pulling into a station? Frank from San Francisco mentioned BART trains move at up to 36 miles per hour within stations, using less speed under adverse weather or equipment conditions. What's the norm with other systems?
Also, does anyone know the speeds for heavy-rail passenger lines? How fast do commuter and Amtrak trains approach station platforms?
Thanks in advance,
Brandon
I'm TA...my new tech work has R142s limited now to about 40 mph max with acceleration cut to prevent jostling of passengers. So a T/O could crank it if speed controls didn't put up barriers to enter...but the train must stop. Old trainsets can go faster but at what cost? CI Peter
Brandon it depends on track condition, speed restrictions and the area they run in. normally in the corridor between New Haven and New York I've seen AEM 7's with Amcans go through Fairfield, CT approximately 110mph.In Boston T Commuter rail run no faster than 75mph because of the speed governers they have on the engines.
How come on holidays MBTA cars are not allowed south of New Haven even though MARC cars from DC can go to Boston ?
What on earth are you talking about? Unless there's some very strange moves I'm not aware of, MBTA cars don't go south of Providence, and MARC cars don't go north of Baltimore. MBTA and MARC territories are a hell of a long ways apart.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually, I HAVE seen MARC trains on the Hell Gate Bridge in Queens. I dont know if they were in revenue service, but I do recall it was a strange sight!!! Tony
MARC, SEPTA and NJT all lease equipment to Amtrak during the Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Year holidays. It is slightly wierd to see MARC in Penn or 30th Street, complete with MARC motor on the point.
I've seen SEPTA motors with MARC cars and NJT motors on Metroliners, ATK motors on everybody's cars and MARC motors with Amtrak "kiddie kars". Holidays are fun times for railfans in the NE corridor.
Wow, I had no idea. I wonder who's job it is to sort it all out after the holidays and give the rolling stock back to their respective owners. Or do they just give it back to whichever commuter railroad's territory they happen to be in at the end of the day, and leave it up to each of them to give the cars a new paint scheme and call it even? :-)
Are the MARC and MBTA bi-levels involved in this operation, or will they not fit into NYC Penn Station?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Also the new HHP-8's for MARC are testing on the Norheast Corr. so you can see them pulling Slamtrak or MARC stuff.
The MARC ones might, as they are "low level" bi-levels due to trolley clearances in the Baltimore Tunnels.
The MARC bi-levels are similiar in height configuration to the new bi-level LIRR diesel-electric cars.
"This is a...95th Street bound "R" train...the next stop is...86th Street..." "Stand clear of the closing doors, please." *ding-dong**click*
Stuart, RLine86Man
And ths is an extension of Silverliner "advance" Philly NY sections eun by PRR/PC in the 60's. One of my few cab rides occured on Xmas 67 coming back to NY on a string of Silverliners with a well known engineer who sported dress clothing and a bowler hat rather than bibs.
Interestingly, the MU's were better at the curves and beat the schedulecoming into Penn ten + minutes early.
maybe he came from sunnyside. There have been MARC trains in sunnyside before.
"Stange moves" is Thanksgiving weekend and some other periods when Amtrak leases MARC, MBTA, NJT, and SEPTA cars. MARC cars go to Boston, SEPTA cars see NY, MBTA cars see New Haven, and MBTA cars see New Haven.
...even though MARC cars from DC can go to Boston?
Amtrak leases cars from MARC to cover the holiday rush. I don't believe they lease any from the MBTA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They can also go a few mph faster in at least one place, Stevie. On the Providence line, MBTA commuter rail trains are allowed MAS of 80 mph (the inbound railfan window allows a good view of the speedometer :-). The 7:10am inbound express from Providence to South Station is especially good for that, as it is express all the way from Mansfield to Back Bay... and runs at 80 mph for most of the run (slowing to 60 mph passing Canton Junction).
Acela Express trains in this area pass local MBTA stations such as Mansfield and Attleboro at 150 mph. Quite a sight when you're on the platform just a few feet away!
Acela Express trains in this area pass local MBTA stations such as Mansfield and Attleboro at 150 mph.
YIKES!! Just out of curiousity, I wonder what sort of a blast of wind that must produce. Either way, it must be quite a spectacle... One more reason I need to get back to Boston for a visit someday.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Cool!
Todd that is on the south side but, my apoligies i was refering to the north side. stevie
Wow... I bet that must be quite a rush to stand on the platform when a train flies by at 150 mph! Do they make a warning announcement before the train goes through?
Also, do you know if trains have a maximum speed permitted through a station if they are making a stop? Or is it at the engineer's discretion to go as slow or fast as safety permits (keeping within track speed limits, of course)?
In other words, if an engineer could safely do it, is it legal to approach a station at, say, 50 miles per hour and come to a screeching halt for the station stop? What's the normal speed a stopping train will approach a station at?
Thanks for the interesting answers so far everyone!
The station to which I referred, Mansfield on the MBTA Providence commuter rail line (shares track with Amtrak), has a platform that in places is only three feet wide. When Acela Express approaches, you'd better move away and turn so your back is to the tracks!
Theoretically, the audible/visible warning system must be operating (LED crawl signs say "Train Approaching! Stand Back Behind Yellow Line," and a recording drones, "Train Apporaching! Please stand behind the yellow line!). Prior to this system, Mansfield had a crossing gong that rang continuously, and it was much louder and more effective, in my opinion. At any rate, I was led to believe that in order for Acela Express trains to pass through stations at MAS 150, this system had to be working. This morning waiting for the 7:40 inbound express at Mansfield, the system was NOT working, and the AE blew through at 150. Oh, well, when the first 12-9 occurs....
I'm suprised that the engineer of the AE train doesn't blow the horn before passing through a station that fast. I thought they were required to do that anyway?
Sorry, forgot to mention that. There's a horn signal of two short blasts a few seconds before entering the station. But it's not very loud, especially if the wind is blowing the wrong way, and you have a hood up on a cold day!
Thats what I love about the NEC. High speed trains skip through crowed stations at full speed. I like to spot at Princeton Junction on NJT. Amtrak would sometimes come through the station on the local tracks doing 110+. On the express,its fun to but the extra 12-15 feet takes some of the excitment away.
127 mph right past the platform at Newark, Delaware. Hold on tight to the railing!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seems pretty fast. I was at Irvington photographing trains on 12/31 and an Empire Service just sped through and I didn't even hear the horn. It was going so fast, my camera wouldn't even take a picture.
Does anyone know?
Thanks,
Subway grrl
He took the his (L)imo most likely.
It looked like he was getting out of the Brooklyn Bridge Lex IRT station in the clip shown on the news.
A Republican riding the subway. A good start. In fact, Mayor Bloomberg should go out of his way to portray the New York Subway as a major feature of New York City. After all, it is the one thing that brings us all together no matter where we live now. No doubt I am prejudiced, but of the twelve subway systems I have had the pleasure to traverse New York's is far and away the most exciting and the best. But that is just my opinion. I'd welcome yours.
But did he really ride the subway or did he walk in on entrance to the station and out the other in front of the cameras. Unless there is footage of him actually riding the train, this was probably just a phony stunt. I expect more of them over the next 4 years. I don't like Bloomberg, I only voted for him becuase I liked Green even less.
Definitely, I hope Bloomberg makes a big thing about the subway. Hopefully then, at some point we'll get a second ave subway, or better yet, some sort of rail link from SI to Manhattan (my cause celebre of late)! I don't think we can expect it anytime soon with the fiscal troubles we now have, though.
Bloomberg is a sack of shit in a cheap suit who isnt worthy of being mayor of Mianus, Connecticut, let alone the best city in the world. He isnt even good enough to ride the subway. Brace yourselves for 4 long years of horrible city management. It will be like Dinkins all over again.
Isn't Mianus an unincorporated village (which in NY would be a "hamlet"), ie no mayor?
Eh. Whatver.
:-) Andrew
Isn't Mianus an unincorporated village (which in NY would be a "hamlet"), ie no mayor?
Not even that much. It's basically just a neighborhood with no legal status whatsoever.
Isn't Mianus the place where, oh, 15 years ago or so a bridge carrying I-95 collapsed, and screwed up traffic royally?
sn't Mianus the place where, oh, 15 years ago or so a bridge carrying I-95 collapsed, and screwed up traffic royally?
It was in Riverside or Cos Cob, Town of Greenwich, over the Mianus River, on I-95 (Connecticut Tpke, but noone calls it that anymore.) Some people were also killed.
---Andrew
Dinkins didn't do anything right or wrong. Bloomberg will do everything thats is wrong and nothing that is right.
There are two types of mayor out there......caretaker and leader. Dinkins was a caretaker. Koch and Giuliani were leaders. Bloomberg will be the first of a different kind.....destroyer.
No - he is worse. He is a businessman.
Dinkins did a lot wrong.
We'll see how Bloomberg does. Like it or not, he's mayor.
"Bloomberg is a sack of shit in a cheap suit who isnt worthy of being mayor of Mianus, Connecticut, let alone the best city in the world. He isnt even good enough to ride the subway. Brace yourselves for 4 long years of horrible city management. It will be like Dinkins all over again."
Well..........I wonder how those New Yorkers who voted for term limits feel now.
Bill "Newkirk"
Amen! Although I no longer live in NYC, 4 more years of Guiliani would have been very appropriate right now. I can't help but think back to the early '90's (when NYC was known as 'Dinkytown') with people getting mugged on my trains, delays due to police actions, etc. Did most of my time on the M line back then. Fun and games.
You still have 'police action' holding up trains -- what's the difference there???
Maybe not as many muggings, I'd agree there.
Pretty damn good, actually. I don't expect much from old man bloomberg, but I think it's safe to say there's a good portion of the NYC population that's happy to see ghooliani go. yes, he did a nice job, but he was an arrogent SOB that did a lot of dumb things. Him and that rubber-faced girlfriend of his can go moved to nebraska for all i care.
Well..........I wonder how those New Yorkers who voted for term limits feel now.
Bill "Newkirk"
We feel very sad to see Guiliani go, but remain committed to the concept. Term limits will do more to clean the trash out of city government then in preventing good politicians from seeking more terms.
Alot of the New Yorkers who voted for term limits were Rudy backers. You reap what you sow...
Term limits are/were a dumb-ass idea. It dilutes the whole meaning behind 'voting power'.
BMTman
The 108th Mayor of NYC Mike Bloomberg rode on the IRT line to the City Hall Station which the #4, 5, 6 and the J, M, and Z also stop. On Page 4 is a picture from the NY Daily News shows him coming out of the IRT City Hall Station.
The NY Daily News on page 5 for Wednesday January 2, 2002 says he rode the #6 train to City Hall.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Bloomberg took the 6 train from the 77st station on the Lexington line ride to his inauguration. The 6 is a local; there were 13 stops made on the way to Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall.
While campaigning for the Senate Republican Rick Lazio showed his lack of subway savvy: It's midday and he's is finishing up an event at Grand Central Terminal (42st). His next campaign stop is Harlem (125st). What does this Long Island boy do? He takes a car with a driver. Hello? 3 stops on the 4 or 5 IRT express trains....
I don't understand your complaint. Bloomberg boarded at a local station. Did you expect him to walk to an express station? Transferring from local to express at 59 is pointless (it takes longer to walk downstairs than to stop at 51). Sure, he could have transferred at 42, but even if there was an express waiting, he would have saved, what, three minutes or so? And if there was no express waiting, there's a good chance he'd end up ahead on the 6. Lots of real New Yorkers -- except in Queens -- realize that the local is a perfectly good way of getting around.
Woah. The IRT City Hall station? You mean he stayed on through the loop and the C/R let him out at the old City Hall station? Very cool!
It'd be pretty tough for Mike to get out at City Hall, since both of the entrances are sealed tight.
More likely he exited at "Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall."
Wishful thinking.
If Bloomberg had wanted to ride through the loop (maybe he's a closet railfan!), would the T/O have kicked him off?
Before answering that question, recall who operated the first train from City Hall.
Well at least he will be better than Guilliani. Good riddance Rudy.
Rudy did a lot to clean up the city. You can't ask for anything more from a Republican.
Calm down! The guys not even in office one day and you're already bashing the guy in the head.
Keep in mind that the economy is heading in the toilet -- nationwide, and even if 9-11 hadn't happenned -- so if NYC has financial problems you can't lump it all on him. Be realistic...
BMTman
Put it this way: he needs to cut 4 billion dollars from a budget where the only part he has any discretionary power over adds up to a little over 5 billion. And he cannot raise taxes.
Ouch.
While I don't want to get into a political debate, I'm surprised at your negativism and outward hostility. I thought Bloomberg's inaugural speech was quite uplifting. Most of the leaders Bloomberg appointed are city government veterans and have many years of experience. If he manages the city anything like his own company that he built from the bottom up, the City will be run well in the next four years.
You can't help but understand the bitterness of our colleagues on board Subtalk. A great chance was lost to put the great Mark Green in the Mayor's office. As some of those politically astute people could have told you, Green would be the greatest thing to happen to New York since Fiorello La Guardia.
Fred,
You’re supposed to put the <sarcasm>, brackets around such opinions, so that people who didn’t follow the debates could understand!
John
I give up. Dave’s HTML sanitizer is too much! There should be {sarcasm}, {/sarcasm} with braces replaced by < and > symbols, but I couldn’t make it work!
BTW: It worked in preview!
John
Glad you have given the guy a chance. Why not wait awhile before you make a judgment. He rode the subway didn't he? What better way to ingratiate yourself with your fellow New Yorkers than to do that on your first day in command. Oh yes, I get it. You were a supporter of that shitkicking no account Mark Green. That speaks volumes.
Come on, guys!
I need to know if anyone heard or saw this info on the news. I saw
him coming out of a subway station and heard that he had ridden the
subway there, but no one mentioned which line he took. Whether you
like him or not, he's the new mayor and we need for him to be
successful. I'd like to give him one of my subway shirts so he'll
keep mass transit and the "little guys" in mind.
Subway grr.
STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Dear Andee,
THANK YOU!
Subway grrl
Who say's Bloomberg's not intellgent? He took the Lex on New Years Day to say he did it -- not during the hell of a regular rush hour. I expect that if he takes the subway at all from this point forward, it will be limo to 33rd, and the Lex from there, once enough people get off to let in the air.
According to the newspapers he took the #6.
It makles sense since he lives on 79th St on the East Side.
Thats scary.......Upper East Side republican trash with billions of dollars shared a subway car with residents of the South Bronx. Something tells me that he will elect not to do that again.
Upper East Side republican trash with billions of dollars shared a subway car with residents of the South Bronx. Something tells me that he will elect not to do that again.
Notice how many times RUDY rode the rails while Mayor, of course ....
How many times did Rudy ride the rails?
You certainly know how to be insulting, don't you?
Not everyone who rides the 6 is from the South Bronx. I happen to live in the NE Bronx and I ride the 6 daily as do lots of others from the NE Bronx as well as folks from 96th St, 86th St etc.
He does not have much choice since the 6 is the line closest to where he lives (79th St on the east side). He can walk to 86th and get the 4 or 5 if he wants to but then he is also going to see those who you deem to be unworthy.
If you decide to voice your political opinion in response to a transit question (as in the Bloomberg question), could you please at least change the title of the thread so that those of us who want to read about transit know we can just ignore the posting?
It's really frustrating trying to weed out a few grains of transit information from a large number of political postings.
Thanks!
...or if you've been here long enough,
you eventually come to recognize
which posters more often than nay
tend to stick to the topic...
Bill Newkirk... Mark S. Feinman...
Stef... EngineBrake.. to name
a select few posters of worthy reads.
Pirmann, above all :)
Train Dude and OnTheJuice aren't select enough???? Sorry, your ride in my car is two bucks a trip. CI Peter
Thus far, as far as I know, SEPTA has not settled on a paint scheme for the PCC's to be rebuilt for the Girard Ave line. One would guess that it will be the standard SEPTA livery. At the risk of 'copycatting' Muni, is it worthwhile to suggest to SEPTA that the cars be painted in the different PRT/PTC/SEPTA schemes? Here are some variations:
Blue/silver (first PRT PCC's, as seen on repainted 2054)
Green/cream with maroon belt/letterboard molding (similar to 2732)
Green/cream with maroon belt, no molding
Green/white/orange (the bus scheme - applied to 2070)
Green/cream (the 'lazy' scheme of the mid-70's)
Gold/maroon (first SEPTA scheme)
The various SEPTA trial schemes (turquoise, the 'banana' car, red/blue, etc)
Blue/orange/white ('Gulf Oil')
Original SEPTA red/blue (full panel below belt - first K car scheme)
Modified SEPTA red/blue (stripe below belt)
'2730' variation (black window area)
Current scheme
That's at least 14 schemes for a fleet that will be minimum 18 cars. Other variants could include another Red Arrow car or two and a couple of PS/Newark City Subway tributes.
Anyone on the bandwagon yet? The trick is to convince SEPTA that it's a SEPTA idea, otherwise it won't go anywhere (I'm only half kidding here!).
What about St. Louis, Kansas and Toronto, where Philadelphia's used PCCs came from?
-Robert King
Sounds good to me. Given the awful experience had with the ex-St Louis cars, however, some railfans here might not want to give St Lou any tribute. Besides, the red scheme is somewhat similar to TTC's.
While we're on the subject, we should include two of my personal favorites - the all-white 'safety' and 'Zoo' cars that ran around the system just prior to SEPTA's takeover. Those would really bring back memories.
What was that awful experience? I only knew that the St. Lous cars weren't kept around long (replaced by cars from Kansas?). Didn't San Francisco keep their former St. Louis PCCs running for quite a while?
-Robert King
The basic problem with the ex-St. Louis car was that PTC bought them "as is" from SLPS. St. Louis had the really oddball PCC control with the power pedal on the left, brake pedal on the right with the deadman in the heel of each pedal. This also has the master controller backwards from the standard position and the push rods were reversed as well.
PTC went the cheap route and equipped the cars with standard pedals, but used bell cranks so the standard pedals (power & brake, the deadman does not use a push rod) could be used. That's why the cars had a very short life in Philadelpia.
San Francisco and Shaker Heights also bought cars from St. Louis.
SF MUNI did nothing and ran the cars with the St. Louis control, along with their standard PCC's. (This resulted in the joke "in an emergency, what do you do? Simply lift feet from all pedals.") :-)
Shaker paid SLPS to equip the cars with standard controls and MU equipment and no problems with the cars.
Was there ever any documented reason to have such a bizzare control arrangement?
-Robert King
Don't know, but St. Louis Public Service had no air-electrics, and pioneered the all-electric. The claim was that having the pedals set up that way allowed faster braking. (Remember, in PCC control Brake always overrides Power) They also had a peculiar electric switch arrangement that was shown as "St. Louis Type". No one I know in the industry or in musuems seems to know exactly what it was. Like Toronto's Necessity Action electric switch system (The superior electric switch control system in MHO.) the St. Louis type was used nowhere else.
Knowing those lazy bastards, they'll paint them in the same color scheme as the buses, white with a red-to-blue stripe on top of the window line, just like some of the overhauled Kawasaki cars.
That's probably exactly what those laz... er, those fine fellows at SEPTA have in mind - which is why I think some imagination couldn't hurt.
You don't have to pay for the maintenance!
I'm 100% certain they'll be painted in one standardized scheme. BUT, if SEPTA management wants to romanticize the cars and/or Route 15, maybe they'd do them up in PTC colors, kind of the way the MBTA is repainting its Mattapan-Ashmont fleet in the Boston Elevated Railway/MTA scheme.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
In a sense you're correct (as a local taxpaying resident and SEPTA rider, I'm contributing to it, but we won't go there...). However, I think if SEPTA wants to bring some attention to the line and gain some needed friends, the 'throwback' paint schemes would be a good way to do this. Corporate support could also be sought for this, at least to help with the capital costs, and perhaps the support could be extended to maintenance costs also.
I've got a bunch of new R143 photos taken on New Year's on my website, www.nyrail.org along with some R142 delivery photos by Bernard Ente at Fresh Pond. Go to the main page and click on the link in the "updates" column.
Happy New Year!
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
How are the 143's doing on the 30 day trial? has the clock been set back at all?
I was told by a Kawasaki Emp. That the clock was reset one time and thatit should be done on 1-10-02.
Robert
Yep ... and in talking to crews on the 143's on the L, everybody seems pretty happy with it ... aside from having to shake your right hand every stop to get the blood circulating again once it's in full service. :)
The shaking of the right hand issue should not be taken lightly. I wonder about long term effects? If someone "drops the button" during the trip, it will be recorded on the evnt recorder. I fear the employee would be sent to the TA doctor and deemed unable to perform his/her duties.
Oh, how about the timers in the tunnel that have no lunar whites and you approach at 40-45 not knowing whether they will clear. When I rode for the first time on the 2nd day of service, I watched, and they had to go a bit slower, because you cannot take the chance as much now. (Approaching reds that fast is scary enough to me regardless)
That's the reason I raised the issue. I see it as a potential problem that could be addressed NOW before the rest of the fleet comes in with that configuration. I sure wouldn't want to operate it for 8 hours like that. And that's really the only thing about the 143's that I thought was less than optimum ... and yeah, got a chance to look underneath as well ... nice layout down below as well ...
Counseling about shaky hands??? Employee Assistance Program..then doom. CI Peter
Heh. That would probably be the routing ... I always had a thing about "two fisted operation" myself and thought the "slide pot" control on the 46's was unnatural - the 143 controller is nice and all and has a nice feel but I still can't get used to the idea of having a "does everything" controller all the way over on the side like that. Different strokes I s'pose ... I'd be worried about dumping myself though.
The only time I dump is when Gupta leaves the other end charged and his cousins berate me for not checking. CI Peter
Every morning I take a good d ... oh, nevermind. :)
Great photos! Thanks!
While watching the WB-11 Newscast this morning I saw an aerial shot of the Goethals Bridge and what appeared to be one of the two former Coast Guard ferryboats moored near it. It was only a quick glimpse so I may not be correct. Would any of our Staten Island sub-talkers know if this is so and which boat might it be;Lt Samuel S Coursen or Pvt Nicholas Minue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Just been trying to take Amtrak to Philadelphia without gouing through the NEC. #449 takes me from Boston to Albany, where it MISSES THE LAST EMPIRE SERVICE BY 1/2 HOUR!!! GRRRR!!!!!
Amtrak really needs to sort out their local services if they want to compete with Greyhound. They should try to get some $ from Rhode Island DOT and ConnDOT or else refuse to carry passengers between local stations in Conn and RI.
Why would you want to go from Boston to Philadelphia via Albany? What do you have against the Northeast Corridor?
I agree with this question
I agree with your answer
Amtrak's forbidden by their running rights contract with MN to provide commuter type service on MN territory. Anyway, CDOT already throws Amtrak way too much in terms of the ShoreLine East ($10 per pax vs $2 with MN). Given how Amtrak seems to be happily letting the Springfield line fall to pieces, I don't see CT (in a state of financial chaos now anyway), tossing them any more money. I dunno, something about the capitol city's Amtrak station being an eyesore and a dangerous one at that....
There's talk the SLE might end up in MN's hands some day. We could only be so lucky....
RIDot could care less - Amtrak serves exactly one stop in RI, and it's served by the (T) commuter lines anyway. And yeah, the MBTA contracted out to Amtrak, but I hear they're less than happy with the service. Their stuff's nice, but it's S-L-O-W. No wait, slow isn't it. More like, painfully slow. Last one I was on took like 2 minutes to get up to 80mph. That's pathetic.
Try leaving Mansfield, MA northbound (inbound to Boston) on train 806, which is express to Back Bay. The single diesel is pushing five bilevels and two singles, packed full (including standees) -- about 1400 people, or over 200,000 lbs of commuter. It takes seven minutes to get up the hill towards Sharon, and just reaches 80mph as it passes the station (which is already on the downhill side).
BTW, there are other AMTRAK stops in Rhode Island: Kingston and Waverly.
BTW, there are other AMTRAK stops in Rhode Island: Kingston and Waverly.
I think that would be Westerly. What's going on with the station at TF Green Airport, has that been started?
Right, my oops. Waverly is a commuter rail stop :-) It's Westerly, RI. The TF Green Airport station is still in the "planning phase," which means it's waiting for money. But I recall reading a piece in the paper a few months ago that sounded optimistic.
AFAIK, the Warwick Intermodal Station site is currently in the environmental remediation phase. In a press release on 9/26/01, Gov. Almond said the project is "on track" and will proceed on schedule.
And speaking of RIDOT and the NEC, here's what's happening. I'm really going to miss the little stone underpass at Lincoln Avenue :(.
We're going to be in Cleveland on the night of 10/01/02 THU, riding Metro and railfanning. If anyone in the local vicinity want to join us, please e-mail me.
Lexcie
We're going to be in Cleveland on the night of 10/01/02 THU
Lexcie,
Most Americans would write this date as 01/10/02. Anticipate some questions.
Yep. That date format is Europe based, and a few Defense Dept agencies too.
Cleveland does not have a "Metro" but a "Rapid".
Since I work in an international business, I have gotten into the habit of writing the date like this: 10-JAN-01, to avoid confusion. The European paperwork I receive will sometimes throw me, because the writers often write the date a la Lexcie: 10-01-01. October first? No, January 10th.
Not if it’s Cleveland, England (which was a region in England, now elevated to administrative county status)!
Oh, and there’s rail-fanning too! The main Cleveland railway is the Saltburn to Darlington local railway, parts of which run over the first railway ever, with trains pulled by George Stephenson’s Rocket!
John
Okay, this probably falls into the "yesterday's news" category, but I found it amusing and heartwarming.
From Newsday.com: New York station brings Yule Log back to TV after 12 years
Apparently The Log beat out Martha Stewart, Sally Jesse, Montel, and all the rest of the daytime talk shows. Beautiful!
(On-topic note: The Yule Log was apparently sponsored in part by the MTA. Cool!)
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> [From Newsday.com:] they had a bit of an issue because she couldn't find the tape, which had been hidden away in an archive for 12 years. After some digital remastering, "Yule Log" was ready to roll. <<<
I guess this was the long awaited "Yule Log, the Director's Cut" :-)
Tom
Will there be a re-run for the Eastern Orthodox Christmas? I'd love to tape it and burn a CD!
avid
ok.. i had msts and it was great.. BUT HOLY SH** THIS BVE IS AWESOME... i just drove the G train... SO COOL :)
I MAY NOT GO TO BED TONIGHT :)
ok can some of you post where i can get more then the g? q would be great... also, can you see other views besides driving the train?
tahnks!
OMG i am about to lose it... this flushing line has announcements!!!
Heh. Ernie Alstom did good on that one. Wait until you play with the Q line, D train and some others. BVE has a LOT of support out there and new routes popping up every week or so for something worth rolling. And yes, MSTS blows. :)
You want my route? I have a Red Line WMATA route with announcements and the authentic doors opening and closing sounds of the Rohr subway cars but the console is still generic and the scenery is lacking since I need help making objects. A few people have but I have yet to really publicize it. E-mail me if you are interested.
Yeah, and the guy sounds like a real New Yorker.
Alan Glick
.. SPEAKING for the un-initiated...
what the PUCK is a BVE?
If sharing is caring, do tell where
we late-bloomers can join in the hysteria!
Go here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Tells you how to get started, where to get the stuff, and how to set it up if you don't speak Japanese ... then follow the links in the "OMG BVE" thread and welcome to the rails under your nose. Next best thing to paying dues to TWU. :)
Heh. Welcome aboard ... the ONE thing that BVE doesn't do is "let's see what the tunnel looks like from the route ... but if you want to OPERATE without having to whiz in the bottle, BVE is the ride.
Here's some other places to find things:
http://r68a_5200.tripod.com/ The Franklin shuttle route is STUNNING.
http://www.crotrainz.com/ Many routes and links to routes here.
There's also another site on msn somewhere, but I use Netscape and they insist on getting a Microsoft PASSPORT (no way) that has the E train from WTC and a few others ... I tend to look on crotrainz and should have a new BVE route available of my own creation in a couple of weeks. Been a bit too "real world" busy to work with it the last week and change but will get back on it. In the springtime, plan on releasing a 2ND AVENUE subway based on the existing drawings, but that's going to take a while ...
Welcome to the club ... BVE does subways wonderfully - if you visit Crotrainz, you will LOVE the Glasgow and London tubes lines. Definitely grab you some of that ...
How do you get BVE? How large are the files and how can you deal with all that Japanese stuff?
Answered in detail in the "BVE???" thread surrounding this one.
Yes I got to the helper site and downloaded the files, now I'm going to look at the install page.
OK I am having a problem with the install. In the step that has me click on the computer icon with the window and C:\Program Files\BVE. I click on Computer Icon and a window comes up and I hit where OK would be, but nothing happens. I'll keep trying some more, because I really want this thing to work.
OK I fixed the problem and it installed and I can get it to run. Now how do I get the train to move?
HAHAAHAH qtrain... took me a minute too
its either
z - go faster, a - reduce speed,
/ - apply brake
> - release
OR like in r143
z = reduce brake and go vroom
a = apply brake and slow the mother down
Better yet, since you're running a 143, take a JOYSTICK, plug it in and run BVE in "real mode" ... pull too hard and you go BIE just like the real deal. :)
You can select "joystick" in the CONTROL options ... the keyboard control is a bit lame and the "TrainController" hardware is nearly $200 ...
I never use the the brake on MY R-143. I drive it at 83 MPH on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
OK, that's it. I'm downloading it this weekend.
Here read this post at Straphangers that was started by me.
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=001051
The guys at Oaks Model RR captured the video clip and put it online. You can find it at http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Other/2001.mpg
If you thought travel time time on the MARC Penn Line was fast now (it IS the fastest commuter run in the nation) it's about to get faster. I just saw a video (13 meg) of a MARC painted HHP-8 electric electric locomotive in an NS freight consist pulling into Abrahms Yard in Valley Forge PA on Decembre 29th. Way to go MARC. All they need to do now is electrify some more routes. The video is here: http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Acela_movies.html
Railpace has a photo of it in Philly 12-15.
As does this month's issue of TRAINS magazine.
And the Baltimore NRHS Chapter's Newsletter beat Everybody to the punch!!!
In the December 2001 issue of the Interchange, published in middle November, a picure of MARC 4911 appears on page 12.
Why do they buy that crap a la Francaise?
'Cause nobody in the USofA wants to build electrics. EMD did do the AEM-7's, but even they aren't interested in electrics without diesel prime movers any more.
Last year there were a BIG & LARGE string of posts of what it was like riding the rails to & from the times square Dick Clark Special new years celebration(s) ..times square !!
?????????............................!!
It's called NO ONE WENT. I suspect half that footage they showed was a tape from last year. Hehe!
had to be a tape ....lol !!
i was in a chat room earlier, and a friend of mine was in it. Well her brother anyway. Anywaysi found out he is a railfan and interested in trains. i reccomended him to this site because when i was recommended hea by Peter dougherty's NYC trackbook. Anyways his handle will be 3 7 AVENUE EXPRESS. i believe thats it. anyways hopefully he can learn alot here as i have and still am.
ARE U ACCEPTING THE PROPER LINEUP?
TAKE BOTTOM GREEN AND IM ME AT AOL INSTANT MESSENGER F TRAIN 5656
OTHER TIMES USE A 8AV FULTON EXP
NIGHTS USE etrain6@hotmail.com email
SUBTALK
VIA LOCAL
Tell him he is welcome and he will be treated as would anyone else here.
NO WAIT. Forget the 2nd part!! He'll just have to take his chances like the rest of us. :)
Hardly any legroom on this loveseat, ya know?
You didn't buy the fold out sofa?
I'm going through this article on the way to school this morning (yep, I just can't seem to stay away from that damn place!), and I find that Pataki is asking Congress for a temporary waiver on Clean Air Act air quality controls for new projects on two grounds:
1) The New York Metropolitan Transportation Council, which draws up such plans, has been on hiatus since 9-11, when its offices were destroyed and some members killed when 1 WTC came crashing down, and
2) Commuting patterns have changed in such a way that some of the air quality regulations on new projects are now irrelevant.
This is certainly understandable, given that the PATH line to lower Manhattan is shut down, forcing people to either take their cars, NJ Transit, ferries, or the PATH line to Midtown. But the problem arises in Pataki's asking the Feds for the waiver to be in effect until 2005, which could have a substantial effect on new construction projects and transit purchases, particularly locomotives, bueses, and generating plants.
This possibility has raised the eyebrows of Congressmen (particularly Democratic ones) and environmentalists alike. Fears are that such a waiver, if granted, will give Pataki and the State of NY leeway on projects that could be potentially hazardous to the communities they affect.
Sorry, but I don't have the web address for this (I'm not registered), but the article appears on the front page (bottom right hand corner) of today's Times Metro Section.
The article is on the TOP right hand corner of the NYT Metro Section.
You may click here to view it.
It certainly raises my concern.
"In the meantime, [Pataki] officials say, changed commuting patterns, especially for former PATH riders, can mean more driving and more air pollution." RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA, NY Times, JAnuary 2, 2002.
While at first glance, I was inclined to believe that a relaxation in environmental regulations might help fast track mass transit construction projects, after reading the article, I now realize that such a move could simply be an excuse for the Whacky Pataki administration to stop the clock on environmental progress in the region.
""Without the waiver, we're frozen into transportation projects that don't make sense any more." ibid.
Well duh. But before they're completed, they'll make sense again. What? Nobody's ever going to work in downtown again?
What is it with their love affair with the automobile? It is so like them to mortgage the future in order to be lazy in the present.
MATT-2AV
apres moi le deluge Louis XIV about debt, most Republivcans about environmental issues. "my car is my freedom machine" (a slogan from late seventies radio ads
I felt it was about time I post some of the most interesting bits about the Dec 27th SEPTA field trip.
The total cost per person was 3+2.50+3+3+1.30 or $12.80.
No matter where we went we were just in time to miss a train.
Eating lunch at Wayne Junction turned out to be not an option as the sketchyness of the area was exceedingly high. We camped out on the platform.
The wooden canopy over the lo-level, inbound platform at Wayne Jct. has devoloped a definite slant and looks about ready to pancake.
--
\__\
The R8 got up to 70 on the NEC, on the PRR Cheshnut Hill line the linespeed was 50. The speed on the Reading line was 40 or 45 and on the run to Lansdale the speed frequently reached 60. Speed on the doylestown branch was 40 or 45.
The most exciting part was running expres on the R5 from Wayne Jct to Jenkintown. There were several abandonned stations south of Fern Rock, the line was 3 track to Fern Rock and the large Junction at Newtown Jct. was a thrill to speed through.
The best wildlife encounter was a Red Tailed Hawk feasting on a newly trainkilled deer lying w/in the 5 foot of the n/b track.
Lunch was had during the 1/2 hour layover at Lansdale. We walked 3 blocks to a McDonnalds that I heard was popular for patrons of NRHS fan trips.
The old freight station at Doylestown is going to become a bar, but right now it has more rust than Redbirds.
The animated subway ad has been only installed on the outbound PATCO track at Franklyn Square.
According to the T/O, the abandonned Spring Garden station on the Ridge Line has been visited by world renound graffitti artists. Also, current devolopment patterns might get the station re-opened. The T/O also blamed the ridge line's current ridership levels on poor marketing on behalf of SEPTA.
That is about all I have. Happy New year.
The Ridge Spur remains one of SEPTA's best kept secrets. One would hardly know how, when or where to find it, especially after the little 'dance' that was done a few years ago when the trains were extended to Fern Rock via express. I'd venture to say that many everyday Broad St riders avoid the Spur due to the little general knowledge of it. Every time I've used it, it's darn empty.
Just north of Wayne Junction on Germantown Ave (past Berkley St), there are a handful of small mom & pop type stores where a good lunch could be had (to go, if you prefer). Admittedly the area is a tad bit 'sketchy' but not so unfriendly during the day.
The abandoned station at Logan (atop the Broad St Subway stop of the same name) will become a further victim of the next phase of the mainline rebuild (Wayne Jct-Glenside). The platforms will be removed, which will further seal its fate. Whether the old Fern Rock (just north of the new Fern Rock) will get this same treatment, I don't know.
The bar at Doylestown has been a long time coming. The restaurant at Jenkintown (Stasi Milano) is closing and may have already shut down at this point. Although I always thought it was very successful, it wasn't. The parking situation at the station is apparently partly to blame. It makes one wonder if the bar at Doylestown can survive this difficulty, given the even tighter parking situation there.
I had heard that the Spur station at Spring Garden might come back, but I don't know about any development in the immediate area that would push this. There is the renovated building at 10th & Spring Garden that houses several city offices that could attract some ridership, but that's it as far as I know. One thing that does hurt the Spur is the free interchange at City Hall, which makes riding on the more frequent Broad St main line and transferring to/from the El a little more attractive (especially given the Spur's awful off-peak headways).
...and more.
Click here and then click on the 31 that appears in the left frame.
Nice pics, but your webhost is a pain in the ass, had to disable Java because of all the pop up ads.
I was looking at the pictures of the r-143s and the other on this website http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/ They were good pictures.
#3 West End Jeff
Someone had told me that there was an abandoned station on the LIRR Atlantic branch, underground at Woodhaven (not the one on the Rockaway Branch) where it connected with the abandoned station on the Rockaway Branch at Atlantic Avenue. Is this true and does anyone know where there are any photos posted, either past or present?
Check the archives on this board...The subject was extensive discussed within the last 6 months. The platforms are clearly visible from the railfan windows on both the E/B and W/B sides.
Someone had told me that there was an abandoned station on the LIRR Atlantic branch, underground at Woodhaven (not the one on the Rockaway Branch) where it connected with the abandoned station on the Rockaway Branch at Atlantic Avenue. Is this true and does anyone know where there are any photos posted, either past or present?
It's true. You can get a quick glimpse from LIRR trains going to and from Flatbush Avenue, but don't expect to see much - last I saw, only one small part of each platform is lit, and the trains go past at a very high speed.
Don't know of any pictures.
If you get off at East New York, you can still the sign for the Rockaways.
Mr rt__:^)
Actually, I used ENY from the Atlantic L station on Tuesday and as you said, there still is a sign that says "Jamaica and the Rockaways" at the LIRR ENY station! What is that, close to 50 years later, after service ended!
Actually, I used ENY from the Atlantic L station on Tuesday and as you said, there still is a sign that says "Jamaica and the Rockaways" at the LIRR ENY station! What is that, close to 50 years later, after service ended!
Of course, if one wants to get really technical about things, the sign is still accurate.
Of course, if one wants to get really technical about things, the sign is still accurate.
I don't think that's what they had in mind with that sign, but technically, I guess you are right if you get on a train at ENY to Far Rockaway.....
"Of course, if one wants to get really technical about things, the sign is still accurate.
I don't think that's what they had in mind with that sign, but technically, I guess you are right if you get on a train at ENY to Far Rockaway..... "
... or East Rockaway -- but then you're really not in "the Rockaways"
CG
Perhaps the sign should be reoriented to point toward the A train.
Actually the sign, if I remeber correctly is painted on the tiles in the crossunder of the LIRR ENY.
It is. But now the A train uses the route that the sign originally referred to.
December 26:
My trip started off in a rather interesting way. I made a unique acquisition to my collection when I was able to pick up a piece of upholstery off the floor of Breda 3219 on my way to Union Station. It was more like a strip. I could see where it had come from and it was about 6 inches in length. I saw the holiday display at Union Station and then went to board my Acela Express to New York. The train we had was trainset number 14 (2015-2005). I got the conductor who gave me the carbide in September and I found some other things out from the train crew. All the Acela trainsets are to be in service in June. Eighteen will run daily and two will be in "reserve". The bathroom doors, as I mentioned in the post earlier this week, are still problematic and some people at Amtrak are bracing for a big PR issue if anything happens. This was a conductor who said he was bracing for the trouble, I wonder if the dark suits even thought of this. As I said, they needed a crowbar to get one of those doors open. Also, the curve at the Metropark station is the reason why the Acela has to spend such a long time at that station. The doors can't get enough air to close due to the tilt and they must be closed manually. They had to do this with three of them on that trip. Maybe the Acela should only open selected doors at Metropark. While we were there, a NJT train with Comet cars pulled in while we were platformed and left before we did. Also, it didn't appear too many people on the platform were happy to see us pull in and sit forever. What surprised me was the number of thru passengers from points south to Boston. We arrived one minute late. While taking the switches at Penn, someone commented that the Acela was less stable than the Metroliner. I told them it wasn't and the switches we were riding on were the problem but he refused to believe me.
I went to the subway where I added money to my MetroCard, then entered and waited for an E train. An R38 C train came, followed by an R32 E to 179th that was suffering a really bad case of lost train syndrome. The first four cars were signed as follows:
179th Street
Queens
Canal Street
Manhattan
E 8th Avenue
Local
The next four cars were signed this way:
179th Street
Queens
Canal Street
Manhattan
F 6th Avenue/
Culver Local
Finally, the last two cars were signed:
Jamaica Center/
Parsons-Archer
Canal Street
Manhattan
E 8th Avenue
Local
I got a photo of the F sign, which I might get developed later today. I got on in the last car, 3885, then moved through to its mate and wound up in the last of the F signed cars, 3468. The conductor announced several times "This is an E train operating over the F route to 179th" which confused a few people but it seemed most people knew where to go. I got off at Lex where two V trains came in following the E I was on, both were rather empty. This was at about 7 PM.
I went upstairs and caught R62A 1805 on the 6. The T/O on this train accelerated so quickly it was amazing. The instant the doors closed, we were off.
December 27:
My travels today by transit were limited. I took Artic 1048 on the M79 from Madison to Columbus and RTS 4828 from there to Lincoln Center on the M11.
December 28:
Many travels today. I started at 77th Street where I bought a Fun Pass and caught R142A 7261 to Grand Central, where I switched for the express and got R62 1391 to Union Square. 1391 seemed to sway quite a bit between 42nd and 14th. The plan was to arrive about 5 minutes before the 8th Avenue bound R143 at 9:35, take it to 8th, then go to Canarsie on its 9:46 interval, and then continue elsewhere. I asked a C/R on a train of R42s heading to 8th if the 143 was in service, he said yes, but he didn't know how far back it was because there was switching trouble in ENY that morning. It eventually came, about 45 minutes late. The problem with my choosing Union Square to wait is that it is hard to identify the Manhattan bound train car types as they enter since there is a curve and a grade before they enter the station. I noticed while I was waiting many trains were signed J on the head ends (the ends were signed correctly) and that these signs were illuminated, even though they served no real purpose at that point.
Once on the R143, I went to 8th Avenue. It was about to go out for the Canarsie trip immediately but they decided to push it back an interval so the crew could get a break. When they announced the next train would be on the opposite track, everyone left except me, which made the train crew realize I was in fact a railfan. The speed in the river was good, although some of those curves are really slow. I wish they had let the male recording do the transfers or they should have gotten rid of him altogether, his limited existence is really stupid in my opinion. Also, there is an S bullet under 6th Avenue on the trip map, any reason why? I do like the R143 much more than the R142A. I think it looks better from the outside and maybe because it isn't replacing the redbirds. I can't say the R42s are my favorite cars in the system, but the R40 slants are up there. I think as we left the station before Halsey, I was invited into the cab for a brief ride. The controller is in a really uncomfortable position. I had to leave just before we entered ENY due to the possible high numbers of supervision in the area. I rode out to Canarsie, where I ran back to the lead for the Manhattan bound trip, and doubled back to ENY. They did a partial shutdown at Canarsie which they told me often does not work. I hope to be able to ride the R143 again in the future, it seems like quite a nice train.
At ENY, I changed for the J. That platform needs a windscreen badly! I got R42 4808 which I took out to Jamaica Center. Can the lower levels of the Archer Avenue Stations hold 10 cars? Also, why are there no real stop markers, just numbers sprayed on the wall? We passed over a set of railroad tracks in the vicinity of 121st Street. Who uses those tracks? I am not talking about the LIRR tracks the train passes right before the Archer Avenue portal, but the ones before those if you are on the outbound train. Lastly, for anyone who complains that the curves on the J are really bad, they aren't much worse than some others on the NYC subway system. While I have yet to complete it, the N/R/W at 57th, the 1 and 2 near Chambers, and the L in various places come to mind immediately.
Went upstairs and caught an R32 E train. It was about to leave so I got on towards the back and walked up. The lead car was 3589. I got off at Union Turnpike and noted that car number 3862 was paired with car 3839. I then took R46 6038 to 179th Street. I went "up and over" to wait for an R32, which lasted about as long as I had food to eat. I eventually took 5958 from 179th to 47-50. It was a nice run but I can't say the Queens Boulevard Express is really that fast. We couldn't even pass an R train between Elmhurst and Roosevelt. The train also has to slow down quite a bit at 36th to get to the 63rd Street Connector. Lexington appeared to be used quite heavily and it seemed everyone knew where they were going. The C/R announced before Roosevelt the service change but didn't announce the transfer to the 6 at Lex. I went "up and over" at 47-50 where I caught a R46 5652 on the V to Queens. The V was quite full, all seats were taken, and many people exited at 23rd Avenue. I went to Queens Plaza, only because the C/R didn't announce the 7 transfer at 23rd which I had forgot. Our V pulled in at the same time as an R across the platform but I changed for an Manhattan bound E and didn't look to see which left first. I rode in the 9th car, 3420, which was paired with 3465. I then used the MetroCard transfer (although I had a Fun Pass) to get to the 7. I took the express to Main Street with R36 WF 9697, then came back stopping at Willets Point to walk the bridge towards Corona and Casey Stengal where I saw Viking 996 and also stopping at 111th, 82nd, and 46th, for photo ops, before going to Grand Central. I rode the following WF and ML R36s on the inbound legs: 9650, 9377, 9527, 6475, and 9404. I bought this year's calendar, and then shuttled over to Times Square on R62A 1931 to see the Jacob Lawrence mosaic. I then took R62A 1880, which I believe had a blue sticker on it, to 148th Street. I saw 1731-1735 on the 3 with Pelham stickers and 1771-1775 had red stickers. I exited at 148th, hoping to find the M102 stop at 147th. When I got there, I found the stop but it seemed to be the last stop. The driver of an M1 took me around to 146th and Lenox, the official stop, on board Orion V 6042, and then I got TMC RTS 5187 on the M102 back to the Upper East Side. That terminal stand should be moved to 147th and Clayton in my opinion so it is closer to the subway, the M2, and also because that is what the map depicts.
December 29:
A far less eventful day. I should have bought a fun pass because it would have saved money but I didn't. I was going from the Upper East Side to Rockefeller Center and without the F on weekends, it was quite a trip. I first took R62A 1811 to 59th Street. I then walked up to 63rd to get the F there. The conductor announced the W at 59th and not the F. Someone has got to get these 6 C/Rs to get it straight. They always announce the W when it doesn't run and no one on any line is announcing the MetroCard transfers. There was one person on the platform at Lex who didn't realize it was a MetroCard only transfer so someone was trying to give them directions. I got R46 5952 which I took to 47-50. After seeing the tree, my next destination was the Met. I was going to go by bus, so I eventually wound up at the stop at Madison and 58th, a limited stop. Two limiteds had just left, and on Saturdays, I have found the limited beats out the local despite the 10 minute wait. The only problem was that the wait ended up being about 20 minutes for any bus. First came an M1 which I passed up, and nothing came on the M3 or 4 either. It was the worst Saturday M2 Limited I have been on since it was fairly crowded. The bus was TMC RTS 8791. Later in the day, I took R62A 1721 to Grand Central where I took the 5:20 Hudson Line train to Tarrytown. The first two cars were closed off to passengers which made no sense to me since some passengers were standing. The car was 8086, what type is that? Also, what are the three lights (green, amber, and blue) above the cab for?
December 31:
Spent a few minutes at Irvington photographing. Unfortunately, since my camera battery is lithium and it was about 30 degrees, it wasn't working too well. I missed a shot of a passing Empire Service train as well as the rear of a northbound local. I got a few pics which I hope do come out.
To anyone who finds the questions in this post and answers them, thanks in advance. Also, the pics will be on my site ASAP.
We passed over a set of railroad tracks in the vicinity of 121st Street. Who uses those tracks?
The tracks near 121st St. are the LIRR Montauk Branch to Long Island City
We passed over a set of railroad tracks in the vicinity of 121st Street. Who uses those tracks?
The tracks near 121st St. are the LIRR Montauk Branch to Long Island City
Unfortunately, since my camera battery is lithium and it was about 30 degrees, it wasn't working too well. I missed a shot of a passing Empire Service train as well as the rear of a northbound local.
That happened to me yesterday in South Station. I keep having to take the battery out and breathe on the contacts to make it work. It stopped working entirely once I had taken my critital shots of AEM-7 #925, then it somehow found the energy to unwind the entire roll of film. Batteries are weird.
Oren:
Sounds like a really neat trip!
I will finally get to "experience" the Queens IND on January 18, myself. Something to look forward to (?).
The car observations are quite useful. R-62A 1880 & company on the 3 are nowadays a fairly unusual occurence. It's hard to find "Lenox" 62As on Lenox; sometimes harder to find Redbirds on the 6!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
TThe Airtrain is going to connect Jamaica with the terminals at JFK (I believe it is just one route connecting JFK Terminals to Jamaica Station). So far the project seems to be a sucess, and moving along nicely. Are there any planned extensions as of yet, such as to La Guardia. I know there was some talk of connecting the two airports. I don't know what kind of ROW that would use however. It just seems that a similar system would work well for La Guardia (someone had mentioned that in an earlier post on LaGuardia)if connecting to the current AirTrain, and slowly inching toward Manhattan.
1. There is a branch being built to the A train at Howard Beach. In fact this part will be completed before the Jamaica portion.
2. Once, the PA did plan to run Airtrain past Jamaica to LAG -- along the Van Wyck. This idea has been abandoned.
Airtrain LGA If Constructed Would Only Go To Woodside - 61st Avenue Station Connecting with (7) Subway & All Branches of The LIRR Except Long Island City & Atlantic Avenue Branches.
"All Branches of The LIRR Except Long Island City & Atlantic Avenue Branches."
That doesn't leave many branches.
"Once, the PA did plan to run Airtrain past Jamaica to LAG -- along the Van Wyck. This idea has been abandoned."
Are you sure? What was the reasoning? When was this statement made? I have lately heard rumors to the contrary.
MATT-2AV
I remember at some point before the current AirTrain was fully planned that the proposal was for a JFK-LGA-Manhattan line that would connect both airports and run over the Queensboro Bridge. I think it was to be a monorail. After going back to the drawing board a couple of times and figuring out how much money was available, they ended up with just the JFK-Jamaica portion. In theory they were to design the line so that it would be possible to extend it to LGA (and Manhattan, I guess) in the future, but I'm not sure what that really means. There are no current proposals I've heard of to get the line to LGA, but will be happy to hear anything to the contrary.
There was talk during the early construction phases of AirTrain that someone would look into the feasibility of through-running trains from Penn Station to JFK via LIRR and AirTrain tracks, but I haven't heard anything recently about that either, and in any case that wouldn't have been ready in time for initial AirTrain operation.
You would need new rolling stock which is FRA-certified. And, there's no chance of this happening until the LIRR 63rd St tunnel enters service. The Queens end at Sunnyside Yard is under construction now.
You would need new rolling stock which is FRA-certified. And, there's no chance of this happening until the LIRR 63rd St tunnel enters service. The Queens end at Sunnyside Yard is under construction now.
CLICK! The light just turned on. Right ... to get JFK users where they want to go -- mostly midtown, but not under Alexander's (the old proposal) -- you run GCT to LIRR 63rd Street Connector to Jamaica to AirTrain (hopefully connecting to AirTrain before that massive interlocking).
Though I can't imagine it would take less than 45 minutes to go from GCT to JFK ... anyone know?
This *does* add some usefulness to the LIRR East Side Access program. And by then they'll have 12 years of AirTrain and it'll be more firmly embedded into transit planning.
Can the LIRR physically (not politically) use the AirTrain ROW? And where would the connection between LIRR and AirTrain be made?
Can the LIRR physically (not politically) use the AirTrain ROW? And where would the connection between LIRR and AirTrain be made?
At Jamaica, where AirTrain track comes in parallel to existing southern tracks.
Hopefully the switches will come as early as possible before the interlocking (heading east/south), since every LIRR train I've ever been on has to creeeeeeeeeeeeeeep slowly through the entire mess.
At Jamaica, I noticed they are working on the station and a building for the AirTrain. Is the building for offices for the AirTrain, or what is the building for? I also noticed that one of the tracks of the LIRR go right throught the building! Is that track going to be some kind of Passenger transfer?
Jamaica Station is undergoing a nearly $400 million redevelopment. A new glass and steel terminal is rising up around the olde building; the old building will then be torn down. Part of the new building is the AirTrain terminal. AirTrain will, however be open to service long before this whole complex is finished.
Jamaica Station is undergoing a nearly $400 million redevelopment. A new glass and steel terminal is rising up around the olde building; the old building will then be torn down. Part of the new building is the AirTrain terminal.
WOW. Missed this entirely. Any online info? Can't find anything on MTA site.
Will it include more platform staircases? I got caught in a Friday night platform change and it was pretty frightening ... exactly 2 staircases on each platform, and about 50,000 people afraid they would miss their connection. Hoo boy.
The Port Authority had a lot of stuff about this on its pre-9/11 website. I hope it will come back at some point.
The Port Authority had a lot of stuff about this on its pre-9/11 website. I hope it will come back at some point.
It's still there. I don't remember anything more detailed.
Cool!
50,000? Really?
Seriously, there are two stairs to overpasses leading from each platform, plus another two, IIRC, leading to an underpass near the east end of the platforms. Unless, of course, something's been torn down in the last few weeks.
50,000? Really?
Well ... no. But it sure as heck seemed like it.
Seriously, there are two stairs to overpasses leading from each platform, plus another two, IIRC, leading to an underpass near the east end of the platforms. Unless, of course, something's been torn down in the last few weeks.
For some reason, none of the passengers who suddenly had to switch platforms used the underpasses. And I didn't know they were there. Everyone crowded into the stairways, which of course had a few people trying to come down them. And it was a beach train so there was a LOT of weekender luggage, unlike weekday commuter traffic (briefcases at most).
All in all, it was a miserable experience and one of the reasons that I take the train from Hunterspoint Avenue if I possibly can.
Life is far too short to change at Jamaica.
AFAIK, the old LIRR building will remain, and only the AirTrain terminal, "vertical circulation" building, and platform canopies are glass and steel (contextual development, anyone?). At least I think that's the old building on the right side of this slide.
You could be right; on the other hand I distinctly remember MTA stating it would replace Jamaica Station entirely with a new building, and the price tag quoted will pay for more than glass canopies and a vertical circulator. A construction supervisor at the site told me the old building was coming down.
I hope I'm right; that building is landmarked! :) The entire platform structure is being replaced, not just the canopies, which contributes to the $400M cost. I'd guess that a new building would cost more.
The entire platform structure is being replaced, not just the canopies, which contributes to the $400M cost.
Wonder if there are any thoughts toward double-decking it so you can have two layers of platforms AND some bypass tracks so not every SINGLE train has to stop there?
Any idea?
Wonder if there are any thoughts toward double-decking it so you can have two layers of platforms AND some bypass tracks so not every SINGLE train has to stop there?
None whatsoever
There already are some bypass tracks, but they're on the same level as the other tracks: http://www.kennedyairport.com/airtrain/Drawings11-00_Gallery/images/s-vcb-trac-101200.jpg
There already are some [Jamaica] bypass tracks, but they're on the same level as the other tracks: http://www.kennedyairport.com/airtrain/Drawings11-00_Gallery/images/s-vcb-trac-101200.jpg
Has any LIRR passenger train in history ever used them?
I have to think that there'd be a market for one or two "Super Expresses" (like Metro North has) that don't stop til the few stations at the end of their run.
This would only work if the bypass tracks were relatively quick, and trains didn't have to slow for 10 minutes grinding through the entire interlocking to get to/from the bypass tracks.
I think a small handfull of rushhour trains from Penn do actually skip Jamaica.
I think a small handfull of rushhour trains from Penn do actually skip Jamaica.
Ah, that's good to know. I've clearly never ridden one.
Does any SubTalker know if this helps speed things up or if they still take the 10 minutes of crawling thru the interlocking?
For 11 1/2 years I took trains to/from Penn Sta that skipped Jamaica.
The speed thru the station varied based on traffic, but we NEVER sped thru.
Mr rt__:^)
Quite a few trains bypass Jamaica, especially during the PM rush. Some of my favorites are
4:24 to Ronkonkoma - first stop Bethpage
4:51 to Ronkonkoma - first stop Hicksville
5:22 to Ronkonkoma - first stop Wyandanch
5:41 to Ronkonkoma - First Stop Hicksville
5:53 to Ronkonkoma - first stop Bethpage
5:36 to babylon - First stop Massapequa
In the AM there are also 5 trains from Ronkonkoma that do not stop at Jamaica. I don't know how many Babylon trains bypass jamaca but the best Babylon train is the 6:07AM? After Babylon, the first stop is the last stop, Penn Station.
Quite a few trains bypass Jamaica, especially during the PM rush.
Thanks, Dude. So ... how much time does this actually save? Comments on crawling through the interlocking?
According to the published schedules, trains stopping at Jamaica dwell from 1 to 2 minutes. Since the crawl through the interlock is constant it's likely that the actual time savings are more than the 1-2 minutes. FOr me, it's not the time though. It's the bother of people getting up and changing trains at jamaica. It's the disruption of my rest and the need to show my 'ticket' to the conductor again. Even when I'm on a train that does stop at Jamaica, if it's more than 10 cars long, I ride in the rear of the train since those last 2 cars do not platform in Jamaica. Personally, though, I agree that the extremely slow pace through the Jamaica station interlockings can be irksome. I don't see the reason for it, but then again, I'm sure they have their reasons.
Several years ago there was a train (IIRC the 5:23 Penn-Huntington) that only stopped at Syosset, CSH & Huntington. However I remember it pulling through one of the platforms without stopping, so that the time savings is really negligible. All it accomplished was that there was no picking up of Flatbush or HP transferees.
There are 12 AM westbound's and 14 PM eastbound's on the Babylon branch that skip Jamaica to/from Penn Station.
Huntington has 4 in each direction to/from Penn. There's also one Flatbush-to-Huntington PM train and a Port Jeff-Hunterspoint AM train which skip Jamaica.
As mentioned by TD, Ronkonkoma has 5 in each direction.
Long Beach has 2 eastbound and 3 westbound.
Far Rock has 2 eastbound, but none westbound.
Hempstead has 2 westbound, but none eastbound. (go figure)
West Hempstead and Oyster Bay have none.
Time saved varies, but (based on perception only) the most time is saved on trains which switch from the Babylon tracks to the Atlantic tracks at Valley Stream. The Atlantic tracks join the main line just east of Jamaica, and as a result skip many of the switches and congestion east of Jamaica.
CG
What is the track going to be used for that runs under and through the new buildings in the right of the picture. You can also see it at track 8 of the platform in Jamaica.
And if the trains didn't have to wait all day for clearance into the East River tubes.
So you mean that the waiting room that they just fixed so nicely on the old building is being torn dowwn with thew old building. Why did they redo the whole waiting/ticket area?
Wait I just saw on another part of the thread that the old building will remain with the new complex.
You are correct. The LIRR Building from 1913 will remain.
It does have a lot of character, doesn't it?
I read somewhere that it was built strong enough so that an additional 7-10 floors could be added if necessary.
A new glass and steel terminal is rising up around the olde building; the old building will then be torn down. Part of the new building is the AirTrain terminal.
From the PA website: "The AirTrain Terminal design at Jamaica Station has several components that will be integrated into the existing historical complex ... "
Key words "integrated INTO" and "existing HISTORICAL". The old one stays.
I guess the construction supervisor I talked to at the site was wrong...OK.
I have nothing against the current building. It does need a little interior updating, though.
They did a really nice job updating the ticket area.
There is a branch being built to the A train at Howard Beach. In fact this part will be completed before the Jamaica portion.
That's right, I forgot about that branch. So there will actually be two subway connections.
I haven't seen anything formal, but I'd be surprised if the Port Authority hadn't considered that connecting the JFK Airtrain from Jamaica to LGA would effectively create one very large airport from two. After all, it can take 20-30 minutes to get around DFW on their internal air train.
LGA and JFK currently serve very different clienteles. The thing they're missing out on are the international connections. JFK has the best schedule for international flights to Europe, but passengers travelling from mid-America are hard-pressed to take advantage of those options without taking a taxi from LGA to JFK. Not likely.
Extending the Air Train would increase traffic at both airports, giving a boost to the landing and departure taxes the PA receives on each passenger.
CG
It's a very interesting thought. If one looks at the arrangement of the trackway, Jamaica could serve as a stub terminal where trains could change ends and head for the alternate airport. The northern route could follow the Van Wyck median (as it does on the southern route) directly to LGA or with an intermediate stop for a connection with the #7 line at Willets Pt. Blvd. Whether the PA looks at it as an intra-airport system as you suggest or as a connector between the two airports, the LGA segment might actually get more ridership than the southern leg.
Are there any other stations for the Air Train between Jamaica Station and the airport (aside from the branch to Howard Beach)
There are no other stations between Jamaica and the Airport stations.
There are no other stations between Jamaica and the Airport stations.
Nor can there be. AirTrain is being funded by a charge levied on airline tickets. Federal laws imposing this "passenger facility charge" prevent the proceeds from being used for transit projects that will benefit persons other than airport users. Having no stations other than Jamaica/Howard Beach and those at JFK itself means that AirTrain will be of relatively little use to anyone but airline passengers and airport employees. That, in turn, keeps Congress happy.
You could theoretically have an intermediate stop on the Van Wyck, but it would have to work like this: Riders may only board Airport-bound trains; riders may only alight from Jamaica-bound trains. Doesn't that resemble what Long Island Bus does at its Queens stations?
"You could theoretically have an intermediate stop on the Van Wyck, but it would have to work like this: Riders may only board Airport-bound trains; riders may only alight from Jamaica-bound trains. Doesn't that resemble what Long Island Bus does at its Queens stations? "
Yes it does. Interesting idea. Also resembles what Amtrak does (or used to do) at some NEC stations (Metropark and New Carrollton come to mind) -- some trains stop only to receive or discharge passengers.
CG
Thye only thing is that it would slow the train up a bit. It would have to be estimated how many people would use an intermediate station to go to JFK.
Very true.
So long as one end of the trip has to be on the airport grounds, I would estimate that the number of trips per month with the other end at a hypothetical mid-point station would be approximately none.
"So long as one end of the trip has to be on the airport grounds, I would estimate that the number of trips per month with the other end at a hypothetical mid-point station would be approximately none. "
Not necessarily. A station on the JFK train just north of the Belt could serve all of the hotels in that area and would have the effect of reducing on-airport traffic further. Also, many of the airport's employees live just north of the airport along the Van Wyck.
CG
Thanks for sharing that info. I was unaware of that technicality.
So if I understand you correctly, should the MTA wish to extend the Astoria line to LaGuardia, or use a branch off of the Flushing line, it may not receive funding from airline ticket surcharges.
It would instead have to be funded by us, the taxpayers and straphangers.
In my opinion, this is one more reason why I like the JFK AirTrain situation; it is paid for by those who use it, and it is designed for those who use it.
MATT-2AV
So if I understand you correctly, should the MTA wish to extend the Astoria line to LaGuardia, or use a branch off of the Flushing line, it may not receive funding from airline ticket surcharges.
Not necessarily. If the extension/branch goes solely to the airport, without intermediate stops after leaving the existing line, one could argue that it would be useful only to airport users and therefore should qualify for ticket-surcharge funding. In other words, although the extension/branch would be part of the subway system, persons other than airport users would not have reason to go beyond the "original" part of the Astoria or Flushing line.
I'm not so sure it would fly. They may have no reason to go beyond that point, but that doesn't mean that they can't (without extra measures, like an exit fare). However, I really must not try and speculate on what a court would rule.
MATT-2AV
Would it be possible to fund a subway branch / extension by surcharge funding then at a later date add an intermediate station by other means?
I think that after the JFK Airtrain is completed, a branch to LaGuardia seems like the next logical expansion for the reasons you stated. It may even be a better connection than the N train to LaGuardia. Once LaGuardia is connected to JFK, thew next step (and getting closer, once at LaGuardia) would be some sort of connection to Manhattan. Although I don't know how or where would be the easiest and most Efficiect route to Manhattan, from LaGuardia for the Airtrain
As many of you know, the TA generally has no idea where its trains are between the time the leave one terminal and the time they arrive at the next -- unless a T/O pulls up to a phone to report a problem, or a tower calls one in. Therefore, only BIG problems get reported, and Newsradio88 almost always reports mass transit is "on or close to schedule."
If the TA pulls off ATS, however, all that will change. If any given train is eight seconds behind schedule, it will be immediately and clearly visible at the new Rail Control Center.
I wonder what the inter-face with the traffic agencies will be? Would the ten minute delay in-bound on the #4 at 6:50 a.m. this morning become newsworthy?
How is transit news reported in Washington, where ATO is standard?
It isn't. WMATA doesn't give WTOP any information outside rush hour or during rush for that matter. Whatever they provide is often bare bones so it isn't much help. Not even Lisa Baden's daily dose of humor helps the anger when they can't simply report if the trains are on time.
Would the ten minute delay in-bound on the #4 at 6:50 a.m. this morning become newsworthy?
If they listed every "minor" delay... the traffic guy would never get a break.Also, why would the T/o turn off the ATS?
I chuckle when I hear that too. I prefer to hear, "On or close to the track."
Here in Boston where the MBTA knows where all of its commuter trains are, the right word doesn't get out to the media. Case in point -- in the aftermath of last Thursday evening's Amtrak derailment at Canton Junction, one of tracks was still out-of-service all day Friday, causing delays of 60-90 minutes on the Providence line. On Friday morning, I listened to WBZ Newsradio-1030 and its traffic reports "on the 3s" for 45 minutes... and there was NO MENTION OF ANY DELAYS.
Unfortunately traffic reports and news stations play favorites with the cars, they rarely mention transit delays unless there is a suspension of service, and even when that has happened it's gone unmentioned on 880 or 1010.
Personally I think there should be a news station broadcast just in the subways, with only subway and MTA info without having to sit through all the damn traffic reports. I don't drive so they are worth nothing to me.
Added to the lack of info given to the news media is the fact that the news media doesn't know what to do when they receive the info.
I would estimate that 25% of their more unusual reports, whether related to the roads or transit, are garbled in some way. If it isn't about the Hudson River crossings or the Kosciuscko Bridge (and equally well-known trouble spots), they don't have a clue.
I don't remember any particularly outrageous examples at the moment, but one of my favorites is when they don't tell you in which direction on a highway or transit line the blockage has occurred.
>>unless a T/O pulls up to a phone to report a problem<<
Larry,
The T/O's have had 2 way radios for about 30 years. They don't use the phones much anymore (if at all). The Towers have radios as well and they can use either (radio or phone).
Where have you been living? In a cave?
As far as not knowing where the trains are. That may be true for the B division from a Control Center standpoint but the A division board at 370 Jay St does work. Let me assure you that in all divisions the towers keep a close eye on things and call trains when they stay in a station too long.
I thought that everytime a train came into the station, it had to get written into a pad of paper someplace. I don't remember who called in the times, and who wrote them down, but I vaguely remember something like that from the article in the times that basically said that all NYCT had to year 2000 check was their fax machine ;)
Only major stations such as 125th St, Grand Central, Brooklyn Bridge, Bwoling Green.
The only part that works is the Lex from 125 south to B'klyn Bridge; otherwise, they're as much in the dark as B1 and B2.
Perhaps, but the model boards in the towers do work so there is some light at the end of that tunnel.
I can't believe I just said that.
Model boards at the towers have always worked; that's why during a problem, a T/O is more likely to call the tower first. If you're 'blind', better to call someone who can see than another 'blind' person.
My sweatshirt - The light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming train.
My T-shirt - Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
From a sign on an office door where I work:
It has come to our attention that the light at the end of the tunnel does not conform to standards.
Effective immediately, please disregard the light. It will be extinguished as soon as possible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder what the inter-face with the traffic agencies will be?
Why not provide a website interface for the general public that shows the real time status of all trains, something like what the MUNI already does.
Bemoaning the lack of transit info on the traffic reports seems to come up occasionally here.
Of course, this all begs the question "What would you do with the info if you had it?", especially as respects the annoying but minor delays like sick passengers and BIE that will tie up a line for 15 minutes and then have residual delays of about 15 minutes as well.
By the time the info could be conveyed from the TA to the radio stations very few people would be substantially impacted.
Suppose I'm in my office at 6:15 and I hear that there's a BIE on the E train at 7th Avenue which has just been cleared. By the time I get to the 5th Avenue station to catch my train to Penn, chances are the entire incident will be transparent to me.
Obviously things like "Derailment causes no evening service on the X line" are meaningful and newsworthy.
Same thing goes for the commuter lines. It's really of no consequence to anyone to waste air time announcing "20 minute delays on the Podunk Branch". How would that change anyone's commute? Certainly, if there were some alternate service that could get you home sooner than the Podunk branch plus 20 minutes, it's an announcement worth having. But in the overwhelming number of cases, LIRR/MNRR/NJT plus 20 (or even 45) minutes is far better than any other public transit alternative.
CG
For some people it is worth it. Some people only take mass transit certain days and drive others. If they hear "delays on the Brunswick Line", they will probably choose to battle traffic on 270 rather than take a MARC train.
No, as long as the TA keeps to defining a "late" train in it's own way.
I saw something yesterday that made me laugh out loud:
A little girl, maybe 4 or 5 years old, and her father were transferring from one of the 8th Ave. IND lines to the F at W4. I was standing on the stairs between the mezzanine and the F platform. When they reached the top of the steps, the little girl began to whine, "No, Daddy, I don't wanna go on another train!" and proceeded to throw a major hissy-fit as they descended. The tears, the screams, going limp and being dragged -- the whole bit.
Dad: "Tell you what. I'll make a deal with ya. We get on one more train, and when we get out, we'll take a bus."
Nice try.
Kid: "No, I don't wanna go on another train! No! Waaaah!"
When I was that age, I would have had a tantrum about not being allowed to take another train. There really are different molds, I guess. :O)
ok so far i have #7, R, G, Franklin shuttle
any others out there?
thanks back to my passengers now!!
http://communities.msn.com/NYCTABVERoutes
http://www.ste-liz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://www.crotrainz.com/index.html
Check out these three sites. The first one has several NYC lines, but you need an MS passport. The second and third don't have many NYC routes, but they do have Glasgow, Vienna, Toronto, and several from London.
David
I got a WMATA Red Line route, e-mail me for details.
I have installed BVE and got it running. But how do I get the train out of the station? There seems to be a lack of instructions on how to accelerate and brake. I don't have a joystick so how do I get the keyboard to get the train moving?
HAHAAHAH qtrain... took me a minute too
its either
z - go faster, a - reduce speed,
/ - apply brake
> - release
OR like in r143
z = reduce brake and go vroom
a = apply brake and slow the mother down
up arrow puts the train into forward gear
good luck!
You have to press "F" first every time to put the train in foward!
That is only if you have your controls set in operation 2.
And "Q" sets the emergency brake if necessary
ok so i got the Q route... runs on the express track but wants me to stop at the locals... bet that will piss off the passengers when they have to hop to the platform :)
I changed the file to change that but the distances are still inaccurate. E-mail me if you want it.
Heh. Go into the RW route file with a text editor and change the 1's at the station stops to 0's and then you won't have to stop there or watch the "geese-o-meter" go offscale. Each route seems to have minor miscalculations - the D train run for example wants you to run up the dash and somehow let the geese off at all the local stops too. Getting familiar with the CSV and RW files and how they work will allow you to piece together your OWN routes when you get bored with operating. :)
My E line route (the one I'm still working on [and need help with]) doesn't have that problem. It'll just show you a sign marker for each station you pass. They're not even listed on the schedule.
As it should be ... I just started doing my FIRST route for BVE and ended up getting my own happy meat caught in a Freeobj(...) beyond my own limits ... once I get past my own insanity level here at work, plan to finish it and then might actually have some time to engage in some collaberation ... my email address above is valid, but way over the top busy at the moment ... if you can give me a week or so, drop me a line, tell me what you need, be happy to kick in where and if I can be of any use. I'm a HORRIBLE artist, and live way upstate. My last visit to da chitty was Kissmoose with some pals. Prior was nearly 10 years ago - last time I *lived* in town was 1975 ...
Question I have is where do you stop the train at the station, where is the marker? I keep getting indications that I pass the station and three buzzes. I guess I'm not opening the doors, how do you do that?
q train: youshould see a marker, most of the nyc rotes are 8/10 or the g has 10 opto and the shuttle too has 2 opto...
otherwise stop close to the end about 1" off the end :)
hope that helps...
I don't have any NYC subway routes yet but I'd like some. I have no idea on how to operate the Japanese trains, the two routes that came with BVE when I downloaded it. I have gotten the trains to move but keep getting an "angry face" and chimes and bells, not to mention getting a commuter train into EMG and having no way to get it out.
The "grumpies" would be your "geeseometer" and yes, geese are SUPPOSED to be unhappy if you operate properly. :)
For the Nip routes, you'll see a little orange and white DIAMOND on a pole, usually on the wayside opposite the platform at the stop point. That's the DEFAULT stop point in BVE, the way it's done on the home islands in Nihon. For NYC subway routes, most people place the car markers on the wall just like the real thing. The "stop markers" can be made invisible in BVE (those diamonds on poles) so you can use something ELSE as the stop marker ... does this help?
OK I figured the diamond was the stop marker. I don't know what the three buzzes are though. It's abit different because you don't get door opening/closing sounds like on Mechanik.
Three buzzes is the conductors way of saying, "I pointed, did not see board, I ain't opening this witch until you put me on the board" ... means you overshot the platform. Go into the kitchen, get a plastic cup, fill it to the brim with grim and get ready for counseling. :)
Or just back up (press the down arrow 2 times then apply power) until you get it right.
Hit F3 and they'll leave you alone. That meter depends on the load set at each station. If you have none, it's ALWAYS green. If it's at full load, it's gonna get angry real easy.
Heh. Guess it's a throwback to my days in the 1970's on the railroad. Don't want no sleeping geese and the more you can make them steam, the more it felt like a day at work. Heh. In fact, I noticed that if I apply and brake a couple of times, I can pitch the old geese-o-meter right off the scale on the Franklin shuttle route. :)
The geese don't like fast, hard braking either.
Just like the real thing. Just remember - there's a reason why the shoe wood goes diagonally inside the cab to keep the geese from kicking it in after you splatter them on the storm door. :)
hey Northman (or anyone) can you tell me how to install that damn Q route and B route and all those other routes from the communities site? or where you got the Q route
Been a while. If I remember correctly, those were just a ZIP file containing all the files without "folder structure" so what I did was create a "NYCTA-Q" folder under \bve\railway\object folder and unzipped them to there, then moved the RW file to the ROUTE folder so it would appear on the list. All of those were done in a way that departs from what many other authors did, a nice self-extractor that put everything in place. For those routes, you DO have to sing for your supper to get everything moved.
We're not allowed to have games on our "work machines" or any other unauthorized stuff (security reasons) so I can't drop down and have a look since they're on my "home machine" ... but that's what I remember and just went and looked at a CDROM where those are stored.
Thanks a lot I'll go try that. Boy , hopefully Ill also get unlazy and create my own route.
I've still got one I was working on - got a bit busy and hope to get back to it this weekend ... plenty of folks working on MORE BVE routes too. We were all wondering how many of us BVE'ers were going to go over the fence and do MSTS routes - most who have tried are now back on the BVE train ...
one more question. I have 2 routes installed on BVE 2. SOmetimes the game stops and says invalid something Mainloop, i have to press contuinue to go and it keeps popping up, especially by the markers to stop, how do i fix that?
Any such errors indicate that files are missing or invalid. The authors of those routes used LONG filenames and if the Zips were unzipped in DOS mode, the filenames might have been unwittingly changed or don't match the filenames that the RW files are looking for.
Generally bad filenames will get an error prior to the route coming up while it's in "rendering" mode ... if it comes up and you get that, something's wrong with the route file as far as what's being called. I *did* get the routes working but it DID take some editing of the route files. That's why I find it amusing that the MSN site is going whole hog MSTS ... BVE is a LOT easier to write for and that has me wondering how routes for MSTS are going to turn out given the reality.
I'm near the end of th night on this end, but drop me an email if you continue having troubles - will see about zipping up my RW files for you so you can unpack them. I have those working on my home box but they didn't work straight out of the download ... they still have some problems but none of them require tooting for a car inspector. :)
Remember what Microsoft did with their Windows Media Player and Winamp? All of a sudden Winamp skins can be used in Windows Media Player. I wouldn't be suprised if tomorrow BVE routes will load and run in MSTS.
That would be amusing to hear ... but since this ain't Microsoft's train sim - they subcontracted it to the JUKU kids (who will find their stock options and their company soon swallowed WHOLE) it's possible it won't happen. I *have* tried MSTS (never got it to work on my machine) at friends' places and what's amusing is once they tried BVE, they got gigabytes of disk space back upon removing MSTS. :)
Can't wait to see what Mackoy has up his sleeve - rumors on the islands is that BVE 3 should be done by March and will come with some VERY pleasant surprises - even more major than the "2" version compared to "1" ... but no ammeter ...
That whole "batch" of files where you got that line, suck. No offense but, it's not really much work put into that and very buggy and not the least accurate.
Up arrow down arrow is your reverser in mode 1 ...
OK thanks!
The world of Subway Surfing suffered a major setback early on New Years Day. A rising star in the sport, Ariel Briones, was riding on the roof of a northbound train at Clinton Washington Station when he fell off and into the path of a southbound A train. He did not survive the cut.
...and here we see this week's darwin award being placed next to his tombstone. Ah yes, the darwin award, a prize cherished by subway surfers around the globe. And not to be left out, the city will be rewarded with a lawsuit from the deceases' parents for untold millions.
If this dumbass was riding on the top of a speeding train then why is the MTA being sued? And why does the city have to pay for someones idiotic acts. That's why kids are running wild because stupid parents mean stupid kids. And if that was my child(which I know it won't be because she'll be too lazy to do so with my DNA)I wouldn't sue because I'll know it would be her fault.
if that was my child...I wouldn't sue because I'll know it would be her fault.
How 'bout when the fifteenth lawyer tells you that you'll get 1.3 mil (and he'll get 2/3 mil)? 20 years ago the parent of a kid who climbed onto the roof of a freight car and fried himself on Conrail's catenary in Philly got 1 mil because there wasn't a fence around the railroad. Two years later, when there WAS a fence, a kid jumped onto the roof of a freight car from a street bridge over the tracks and fried himself when he grabbed the catenary. His parent got a mil. It doesn't have to make sense, it just happens.
Like the woman who got $10 mil after taking Phen-Fen (or Fen-Phen, whatever) after her own physician testified that she wasn't injured. She got a jury of HER peers, not ours.
Sorry to contribute to a thread rapidly going off-topic, but...
What we need is something like the British system: The loser in a civil lawsuit has to pay the court costs and attorney's fees of the winner. Corporations and public agencies are therefore much less inclined to settle, and the trial lawyers tend to stick to cases that actually are legitimate.
But you'll never see that here, because the only regulation lawyers face in this country comes from (drumroll, please...) more lawyers, whether they be in the Bar Association, or politicians in the local, state or national government. It's the only profession that essentially has no external oversight whatsoever.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yo David....why can't I sue for pain and suffering if my buddies told me the car i had to inspect and repair was a victim of retarded dead dummy pathological remains splat? CI Peter
Why can't they ever get railfans on juries?
Cause there's no storm doors in court rooms. (sorry, couldn't resist).
I'm a railfan, empanel me, I FIND FOR THE DEFENDANT!
I'm a railfan, empanel me, I FIND FOR THE DEFENDANT!
The first jury on which I served found for the defendant.
Well, of course they should sue.
I mean, did the MTA install a 36 foot high electric barbed wire fence all around the entire ROW ov every single line in the system?
Were there signs (written in English, Spanish, 6 dialects of Chinese, Croatian, Ukrainian, Farsi, Tagalog, Sanskrit, Urdu, Latin, Haitian Creole, Morse code, semaphore, Braille, Esperanto, Vulcan, Klingon, hieroglyphics and Neanderthal grunt language) warning people that they might fall off the train and die?
Was there another sign (written in English, Spanish, 6 dialects of Chinese, Croatian, Ukrainian, Farsi, Tagalog, Sanskrit, Urdu, Latin, Haitian Creole, Morse code, semaphore, Braille, Esperanto, Vulcan, Klingon, hieroglyphics and Neanderthal grunt language) warning about the dangers of trying to scale an electric barbed wire fence?
If not, then it isn't the kid's fault. It's entirely the MTA's fault. Suppose he was a Neanderthal just thawed from a 50,000 year old block of ice? How would he know about the dangers of trains, unless there was a warning sign printed in Neanderthal? Suppose it was Dr. Spock? Sure, he's smart as hell, but how can you expect him to know any arbirtary earthling language? Same for Worf - isn't it unreasonable to expect extraterrestrial visitors to both understand the danger of NYCT trains AND speak English? What about escaped ocelots and peacocks? Ocelots are people too, and deserve a sign in their own language. And dolphins? If the subway system were flooded someday, how would the dolphins know to keep clear of the ROW? You know, with all this talk about equal rights for all, has anyone mentioned the rights of Neanderthals, dolphins or Klingons?
Maybe this kid was told to do this as an extra credit assignment by his teacher. Sue the teacher too - guilty until proven innocent. Send her to a military tribunal.
Man, what came over me??
It's a well known fact that Spock had trouble navigating San Francisco's transit system (Star Trek IV). He got on and off a bus, and asked Kirk, "What does he mean by, exact change?"
You mean MR. Spock. DR. Spock is a real person who would understand the english signs.
-Hank
Ah yes, you're right. Mr. not Dr.
Which brings me to another point - You know you're a true railfan (or a Trekkie parent, perhaps), when you can distinguish at a moment's notice between Dr. and Mr. Spock.
Well, here we go again. A subway thread that's going askew. Oh well, what the hell.
There's a belief in this country that if you suffer a loss, someone else must be to blame. There must be someone to sue. There must be someone to make me whole.
One only has to look to the events of 9/11 to see this being taken to its absurd conclusion. For all intents and purposes, 9/11 was an act of Mass-Murder, a crime. Hundreds of millions of dollars were raised through charities for the families of the victims. Yet the government has taken the unpresendented step to try to make the families whole. Taken to its logical conclusion, will the government now go back and pay the families of Oklahoma City? Will the government now embark on a policy that all crime victims are paid by the governemnt?
Getting back to your question, the lawyers only have to do one of two things:
Convince a jury that the TA did not do all it could to stop a reasonable person from riding on the roof of a subway train. (remember, this is part of the culture in some South American countries)
Or simply play on the sympathy of a jury and convince them that the family suffered a great loss and a settlement would mean much to the family and the TA would never feel it. In short, it has very little to do witht he idiocy of the original act.
Taken to its logical conclusion, will the government now go back and pay the families of Oklahoma City?
the families of Oklahoma City are pissed because they didn't get the government bonanza.
I just want to add that I was and still am in favor of payments for police, fire and other emergency personnel who risked and lost their lives. However, as tragic as the other lost lives were, why do they suddenly become elligable for a government windfall when the family mugging victtim, just as dead, gets nothing?
TD: what about us??????? If you trolley a trainset out of the barn and the big bug hangs you up......you may fry (I have learned to check for movement.) WE risk life and limb everyday as part of our work and not listed as 'emergency personnel.' I have ideas for turnstile jumpers. CI Peter
Part of Tier IV pension is life insurance. 2X your annual salary whether it was job related or not. Of course your family can always sue the TA and the maker of the trolley system - they may even be able to sue Con Ed. and the NY Power Authority.
However, as tragic as the other lost lives were, why do they suddenly become eligible for a government windfall when the family mugging victim, just as dead, gets nothing?
Beats the heck out of me.
I, for one, would like to see a limitation to state/municipal liability specifically for trespass onto property not designated for passenger use. Specifically, you lose your right to sue.
Of couse, I don't always get what I would like to see.
Injuries sustained during the committing of a crime -like trespass - should not be compensated. If you are fleeing from the police and your getaway car crashes into a wall, too bad for you. Yet, only in the good old USA, the crook will SUE! I do not get it, but then, who makes the laws? Yep, the lawyers.
Many crime victims are given money by state and federal governments, it's called the crime victims board. It's uaully not in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, but it's a little bit.
-Hank
Yes some of the families of victims (not the rescuers families) are upset with $Million+ settlements. It's not a matter of being made whole any more - it's become a winning lottery ticket.
Why sue for idiocy?
Because you can get $ for it
What has ever happened to common sense. Don't these idiots realize that it is dangerous to ride on the roof of a subway car? There are many places throughout the system where there is no room for someone to stand on top of a subway car. This is not the first time I've neard of someone getting killed because of subway "surfing", and I'm sure it won't be the last time I hear of someone getting killed because of subway "surfing".
#3 West End Jeff
What has ever happened to common sense. Don't these idiots realize that it is dangerous to ride on the roof of a subway car? There are many places throughout the system where there is no room for someone to stand on top of a subway car. This is not the first time I've heard of someone getting killed because of subway "surfing", and I'm sure it won't be the last time I hear of someone getting killed because of subway "surfing".
#3 West End Jeff
As a railfan who also is an attorney, I positively dread entering threads that have to do with people killed because they crossed, tresspassing, or otherwise did something stupid around train lines. Someone will speculate that the parents or other heirs will sue, others will talk about the case as if the railroad is already being sued, and then the whole thing typically descends into a bashing of lawyers and the legal system.
1) As railfans, afficionados of a very technical and intricate industry, we are unusually sensitive to how the media and Hollywood can intentionally or unintentionally misdiscribe or even twist the perception of railways, transit, etcetera. We can all cite examples where either a local news outlet or a movie "got it wrong." And even with all that knowledge about the media not being a wholly reliable source, many of us still accept blindly as typical or ordinary the lawsuit horror stories that the media latches onto because they make good copy.
2) Contrary to the comment someone made, to the effect that if the MTA hired lawyers to sue trespassers and their heirs there would be fewer attorneys to sue the MTA, there are relatively few attorneys who practice in the litigation area. MANY people who get a law degree never bother to get their law license at all (lots more than study medicine or architecture or such but don't get the license) and instead use their legal training to do business transactions for themselves or a company they own or manage. Many who do get law licenses end up doing very little court work, criminal or civil, and mainly do wills, contracts, land transactions, etcetera. Of those who do practice in litigation, many serve as defense counsel (paid by the insurance companies). In the field I work in, I haven't been within a mile of a lawsuit, or any other court case, in over four years.
3) When I was working for a firm that did litigation, it was only a small part of our case load BECAUSE IT WAS NOT PARTICULARLY LUCRATIVE. Think about it: if suing someone were the guaranteed "ka-ching!" victory that popular culture makes it out to be, we would have done that all the time instead of working mostly on simple bankruptcies, wills and trusts for people whose biggest asset was their house, and criminal defense in minor drug possession cases. Of the lawsuits we took on, we probably lost more cases than we won, and that was after the firm owner had debated, researched, and generally agonized over whether to accept the case in the first place.
4) While it's true that filing a lawsuit is easy, whether or not one has a lawyer -- the really bizarre "aliens and George Bush ate my brain!" suits tend to be pro se -- winning is not the guaranteed win that it's popularly made out to me, not by a damned long shot.
(a) "In 49% of [civil] jury trial cases, the jury found in favor of the plaintiff and awarded in the 12 month period an estimated $2.4 billion in compensatory and punitive damages. The median total award for a plaintiff winner was $35,000. Juries awarded punitive damage awards in 212 cases with a plaintiff winner that totaled over $545 million. The median punitive damage award to plaintiff winners was $50,000." http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/civil.htm
(b)"Plaintiffs won in 48% of tort trial cases. Plaintiffs were more likely to win in tort trials decided by a judge (57%) than a jury (48%). Plaintiffs won in 58% of automobile accident trials, 57% of intentional tort trials, and 23% of medical malpractice trials.
The median final award to plaintiff winners in tort trials during 1996 was about $31,000. Seventeen percent of final awards exceeded $250,000 and 6% were $1 million or more." http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ttvlc96.htm
(c) "Despite all of the hoopla about sympathetic juries, plaintiffs chances of winning a recovery in a products liability lawsuit hover at around 50% or less." http://www.productslaw.com/masstort.html
I appreciate your input, from the POV of a practising lawyer. I admit, I'm usually one of the first to jump on the lawyer/politician/whatever bashing bandwagon.
But what troubles me is that even though victory is far from assured (though a 45-50% chance of a median decision of $30-50,000 is far from penauts), agencies like the MTA have to go out and spend money to defend themselves against lawsuits of all sorts.
To give a related example, my cousin struck and killed a girl crossing a street(and seriously injured another). He has been sued by the families of the victims, for a sum in the millions of dollars. Since it's an ongoing case, I don't know if I should divulge too many details, but it was a wide street (something like Queens Blvd, near an intersection).
What was he doing? He was following traffic regulations, according to eyewitness reports. He was not speeding (eyewitness reports and measurements of skid marks confirm this). He did not cross a double line, and was not weaving between lanes. He did not go through a red light (it was green). He was not talking on a phone or arguing with someone in the back seat. He was not under the influence of alcohol (was tested for such; if he had refused it would be a default DWI and automatic arrest and slammer time). Onlookers and the police report stated that the victims ran across the street, against a red light, and that my cousin was not at fault, and that there was probably no way a collision could have been avoided; he could have been any of us, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The car was later tested by the police for mechanical deficiencies and none were found. There are various other suspicious facts about the victims (they were underage, but carrying fake ID's in an area with many nightclubs and bars; I leave speculation to the reader).
But now my cousin and his family have to go through this grief, and have to shell out money for lawyers to defend him against this lawsuit. The suit is an amount in the millions, though even if they win it would most likely be a fraction of that (but even still, $100,000 or $200,000 is a pretty hefty chunk to have to pay out).
And they have a chance of winning, if the survivor or the family of the deceased turns on enough histrionics on the witness stand. Or they might lose, in which case my cousin still loses the time and money spent on the trial, and has to relive this horrible event over and over again in court.
>>> But now my cousin and his family have to go through this grief, and have to shell out money for lawyers to defend him against this lawsuit <<<
When a person kills someone, even if it was not his fault, he can expect some disruption of his life. Why isn't his insurance company paying for the defense?
>>> And they have a chance of winning, if the survivor or the family of the deceased turns on enough histrionics on the witness stand. <<<
Is that the kind of thing that would influence you as a juror? If not, why do you think it will sway the majority of a jury hearing that case?
Tom
>>Why isn't his insurance company paying for the defense? <<
I assume they will, though their obligation is limited.
>>Is that the kind of thing that would influence you as a juror? If not, why do you think it will sway the majority of a jury hearing that case? <<
Me? Probably not (I'd certainly hope not). But other people, yeah!
">>Why isn't his insurance company paying for the defense? <<
I assume they will, though their obligation is limited. "
Actually, in almost all cases in New York, the duty to defend is unlimited for an insurer -- regardless of the limit on the policy. If your cousin is being told anything else by the insurance company, you should get an outside opinion.
CG
Just to expand on the point a bit further, insurance companies who write automobile liability coverage have two separate obligations, the obligation to provide the insured with legal representation and the obligation to pay damages for which the insured is found liable. All of the deductibles and limits of coverage that you see on the first page of a policy relate to paying damages, not to paying for the lawyer. As for limits on the obligation to defend, the lawsuit has to be about you (or other named drivers) driving a car or someone driving your car with your permission and, I believe, you have to have given the insurance company prompt notice of the incident.
Thanks for the info - perhaps something got mixed up in my communications.
In any event, he still has to sit through court hearings and so on for something that has already been determined not to be his fault (and likely couldn't have avoided in any way), and stands some chance (how much, I don't know) of having to make a payout.
And even if the insurance will cover the payout he has to make, do you have any guess as to whose money goes out to pay that? Me and you, and millions of other schmucks who weren't even there, and didn't even know what is going on, through the auto insurance we pay every year. The whole thing just makes me sick...
>>> he still has to sit through court hearings and so on for something that has already been determined not to be his fault <<<
When you say it has already been determined that the accident was not his fault, who made that determination? The investigating officers? Are they infallible? Suppose the investigating officers had decided that your cousin was at fault and therefore the death was manslaughter. Do you think your cousin would waive having to sit through the court hearings for the state to prove it was manslaughter and just report to jail to begin serving a sentence?
If you can understand why your cousin would want to go to court even though the investigating officers found he was at fault, then you should be able to understand why the relatives of the dead and injured children want their day in court even though the investigating officer found that your cousin was not at fault.
It is a fact of life that if you kill someone, whether you are an individual or the TA, and whether you are at fault or not, you will be involved in litigation.
Tom
Is that the kind of thing that would influence you as a juror? If not, why do you think it will sway the majority of a jury hearing that case?
Tom, juries are stupid. There are well-documented psychological research (e.g. look under the works of Stanley Milgram who worked at Yale in the '50s) which suggests that in fact people who are put into a social situation (defined as a situation under which they have to interact with other human beings), then people can make irrational decisions subconsciously in order to make themselves look socially acceptable. A simple example is let's say we were doing a shout-out quiz in class and you were not 100% sure of your answer, but the brightest kid in the class yells out an answer which is different to yours. Then the second brighest kid does the same. Now, how sure are you about your answer? Which answer would you pick?
The American legal system (in comparison to the British) had made great strides in a process called "jury selection" in which jurors who could potentially be biased (due either to previous knowledge of the case or certain affliations) are not permitted to serve. For example, in a police shooting case, no one who are a police officer or a relative of one are allowed to serve. In Britain, they would still be allowed to serve as under the British justice system juries are still selected "randomly". Unfortunately, such selection processes does not include general categories such as say in a Transit Authority v.s. relatives case, they do not exclude anyone who is likely to sympathize with the families of the deceased. That's probably because it would be near-impossible to do this and to guarentee the relatives a "fair" trial.
Conclusion: juries are stupid. It's best not to get involved in a criminal trial. As for transit authorities, they should be given immunity to prosecution.
Lexcie (B.A. Psychol, Cantab, 2000)
Conclusion: juries are stupid. It's best not to get involved in a criminal trial.
BZZZT! Wrong conclusion. Some juries are stupid, that's true, but I don't think it's anything approaching a valid assessment overall. I have served on juries several times in my life, and I can only think of one case where there were a couple of people on the jury who were influenced by anything other than the facts of the case. That particular trial, in which I was the jury foreman, came dangerously close to a hung jury, deadlocked 10-2. After an additional day of deliberation, during which I kept the discussion focused on the issues raised by one of the dissenting jurors, that juror concluded that their original opinion was incorrect, and the jury was then 11-1. Another 30 minutes of discussion and we had a unanimous verdict.
I've also been the defendant in a case a few years back, involving a mentally ill neighbor who made some ludicrous accusations and convinced a couple of her friends to be her witnesses. One of the witnesses described the alleged incident in great detail, including minor details about the vehicle I was supposedly driving at the time that I supposedly tried to run her over. Imagine her surprise when my lawyer advised the judge and jury that the vehicle described was the one I had sold a month before the alleged incident. Needless to say, the jury was out of the courtroom for less than ten minutes - just long enough to vote, sign the paper attesting to their verdict, and return. So from that perspective too I have a great deal of faith in the American system of justice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
close to a hung jury, deadlocked 10-2. After an additional day of deliberation, during which I kept the discussion focused on the issues raised by one of the dissenting jurors, that juror concluded that their original opinion was incorrect, and the jury was then 11-1.
That's the precise issue. Did you count the number of people who were for and against on the initial vote? The fact is, usually after delibration, the minority party sccumb to the majority party. This does not necessarily mean justice is served, especially where the facts of the case are not clear. Statistics show that the initial vote (as jurors enter the room) is at least a 95% confident predictor of the final unianimous verdict.
I have more confidence in the US system of justice than many other, but you only need to look at some of the anti-trust cases to realize not only are there no absolute right and wrong, anyone who gets mixed up with the DoJ loses. "Justice" is really a pointless concept invented by self-rightous humans...
Did you count the number of people who were for and against on the initial vote?
Yes, I did... the vote was 7-5 in the opposite direction of the final verdict. This was after about an hour of discussion, identifying the salient points of the case. (Deliberations lasted three plus days.)
Reginald Rose's play Twelve Angry Men deals with this issue. It's been made into a movie twice - 1957, starring Henry Fonda, and 1997, starring George C. Scott. I have recently seen a high school production of the play (politically corrected as "Twelve Angry Persons") and Jr. received the 1997 version on VHS as a Chanukah gift, although we haven't watched it yet. And yes, it's on topic too - an elevated train figures prominently in the jurors' deliberations.
Your point about anti-trust cases (and other non-criminal cases in general) is well taken. My experience as a juror is limited to criminal cases.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"'Justice' is really a pointless concept invented by self-rightous humans..."
Your incite is truly remarkable.
Did you mean Incite or Insight--Hmmm.
As much as I would like to claim that it was a deliberate play on words, I suppose it was more of a Freudian slip.
>>> juries are stupid <<<
Juries are no more stupid than the general population they are drawn from.
>>> A simple example is let's say we were doing a shout-out quiz in class and you were not 100% sure of your answer, but the brightest kid in the class yells out an answer which is different to yours. Then the second brighest kid does the same. Now, how sure are you about your answer? Which answer would you pick? <<<
Due to the deliberative process that juries go through it is not quite like a shout-out quiz. Since a jury is trying to find some "objective truth" based on the information presented to all of them, it is not surprising that a minority may be swayed into changing their opinion of what that truth is after discussing that information among themselves.
>>> in a police shooting case, no one who are a police officer or a relative of one are allowed to serve. ... such selection processes does not include general categories such as say in a Transit Authority v.s. relatives case, they do not exclude anyone who is likely to sympathize with the families of the deceased. <<<
There is no rule in the American system excluding police officers or their relatives. Attorneys may challenge the objectivity of persons in those categories, and therefore reject them from service. In a case involving the TA, the same process would be used to challenge anyone who worked for the TA, or was related to someone who worked for the TA. Challenges to those who had ever filed a claim against the TA or their relatives or even anyone who had ever been close to anyone injured on the subway would also be considered in the same way.
>>> As for transit authorities, they should be given immunity to prosecution. <<<
Prosecution implies criminal charges. Most people would not want transit authorities or anyone else placed above the law and granted immunity for any criminal acts they may do. In the civil area, if the TA were immune from damages for negligence it would certainly be easier to operate the subways. The C/R would no longer have to check to see that no one was caught in closing doors, and the T/O would no longer have to make sure he stopped with all doors on the platform. No one would have to replace burnt out lights in stations or remove banana peels from the stairways.
If you believe the extensive safety rules for operating the subways came from someone's altruistic belief of what is the right thing to do rather than the wish to avoid liability, I would like to show you this wonderful bridge connecting Manhattan and Brooklyn which happens to be for sale. :-)
Tom
"Prosecution implies criminal charges. Most people would not want transit authorities or anyone else placed above the law and
granted immunity for any criminal acts they may do."
Well stated.
" In the civil area, if the TA were immune from damages for negligence it
would certainly be easier to operate the subways. The C/R would no longer have to check to see that no one was caught in
closing doors, and the T/O would no longer have to make sure he stopped with all doors on the platform. No one would have
to replace burnt out lights in stations or remove banana peels from the stairways. "
There is another way to handle it. Offer the TA immunity from lawsuits, but set up a claim fund. If you're injured through a screw-up of a TA employee, you can't sue the TA, but you can file a claim through the fund. Of course, the "devil is in the details" on accomplishing this.
>>> Offer the TA immunity from lawsuits, but set up a claim fund. If you're injured through a screw-up of a TA employee, you can't sue the TA, but you can file a claim through the fund. <<<
Why should the TA get that sort of exemption from lawsuits and not other transportation entities such as the airlines or Greyhound, or even school bus operators? And who is the one who will evaluate the value of the claim? What if you are not happy with that decision? What you are suggesting sounds similar to the Workers Compensation system, but WC covers all injuries on the job whether caused by the employer or not, and still has substantial litigation. I do not think you could transfer that type of compensation system to customers of a transportation system.
Tom
Your dealings with the federal govt (to an extent) work that way. For example, I served as a disaster response officer on a medical team. If I committed malpractice in that specific role, you could not sue me, and you could not sue the govt., but you could file a claim for losses and expenses.
Your skepticism about total immunity from lawsuits is well-founded, however.
"Why should the TA get that sort of exemption from lawsuits and not other transportation entities such as the airlines or
Greyhound, or even school bus operators?"
Because these other operators are profit-making businesses. If one of your goals is to make a profit, the threat of litigation is important to keep your eye on safety. The TA, in my view, is more like a critical govt. -un utility (esp. in New York!).
Of course, Queens Surface Corp. and Command Bus etc. are profit-making businesses too - so I concede there are a lot of (important) details I am obviously not dealing with here in this post.
" And who is the one who will evaluate the value of the claim? What if you are not happy with that decision?"
What if you are not happy with a jury's decision? I don't see a professional claims examiner or claims board being irherently inferior to a courtroom, per se.
It should be pointed out that the TA already has some procedural advantages over the potential private defendant. In most cases, the plaintiffs have only 90 days to file a notice of claim. The TA then gets to call them in and interogate them, even if no suit has yet been started. The statute of limitations for a negligence suit against the TA is 15 months, IIRC.
>>> What if you are not happy with a jury's decision? I don't see a professional claims examiner or claims board being irherently inferior to a courtroom, per se. <<<
If you are not happy with a jury's decision because the facts are against you, you live with it. If there was a problem with the way the trial was conducted you appeal. The courts are the institution in our society for dispute resolution. They have evolved to protect the rights of litigants by providing neutral persons to determine disputes regarding facts and the law and specific rules of evidence and procedure to protect due process. If a claims examiner is employed by the TA to review claims, how long do you think he would last if the TA did not like his decisions?
In California, and I believe most states, a person cannot sue a governmental agency, including the MTA, the police, the fire department, the sanitation department, schools, and where municipally owned, the electric company without first filing a claim with the agency. There is a limited time to file the claim, and the agency has a limited time to respond. If the agency fails to respond, the claim is deemed denied. If the claim is denied, the person can then file suit. As a practical matter, claims for an inflated amount are filed before a thorough investigation has been undertaken (no one wants to guess too low), virtually all of the claims are promptly denied, and a lawsuit is filed.
Tom
Just so you know the "juice" in NYS, any "Claim" must be first filed with a separate court, the NYS "Court of Claims" which is given the responsibility of GRANTING PERMISSION to sue the state. If you can't convince the court of claims that you have an adjudicatable claim, it gets quashed right there. For employees of the state, making a claim against the state for misconduct, "Article 78, exceeding authority" or any other such similar actions, if the COC blows you off, you're done. Same for many other litigants.
New York may have the finest crafted laws, but it also has the most "juice" ... and the Electric companies are protected by the "Public Service Commission" (where I used to work prior to what I do now with the software company) which ensures that NOBODY gets over. They once ruled the subways ... but NYC formed a Board of Transportation to cut those turkeys loose. PSC, just for the historical, was the geniuses behind how the "second system" unfolded as well as the IRT and restrictions on the BRT ... they also take care of your phone service to this day. 'nuff said. :)
Thus defeating the purpose of a claims examiner.
It is my opinion that even if a lawsuit is filed, the right to sue after a claim has been denied should be limited in the amount of $$ recoverable. I say this in a very simplified way; obviously its execution could not be simple.
"It is my opinion that even if a lawsuit is filed, the right to sue after a claim has been denied should be limited in the amount of $$
recoverable."
By your proposal, all the MTA (or whoever else would be protected by such a law) would have to do to limit their liability is refuse a claim. If that were the case, what would they have to lose by refusing a claim? Or, to put it the other way, why would they ever admit a claim larger than the limit amount?!? (And what would you propose the limit amount to be?)
The fact that a person or organization WHO IS POTENTIALLY LIABLE TO PAY A CLAIM rejects it doesn't disprove the claim -- not everyone is willing to admit they were wrong even if they know internally that they were wrong, especially if that comes with a price tag.
I agree with you; what I am saying (and it might not have been clear) is that the MTA culd be liable for a larger award they reject the claim first and then lose, but this award should still be subject to a cap.
For example, MTA might unjustifiably reject a $100,000 claim. If it goes to trial, the cap might be, say, $500,000, instead of allowing a jury to award a lot more.
In this way, MTA is not motivated to reject every claim.
"I agree with you; what I am saying (and it might not have been clear) is that the MTA culd be liable for a larger award they reject the claim first and then lose, but this award should still be subject to a cap."
That makes a LOT more sense than what I thought you were saying at first.
Even after my misspellings and screwed up punctuation...
Juries are no more stupid than the general population they are drawn from.
Your point? :^)
If you believe the extensive safety rules for operating the subways came from someone's altruistic belief of what is the right thing to do rather than the wish to avoid liability, I would like to show you this wonderful bridge connecting Manhattan and Brooklyn which happens to be for sale. :-)
I don't mean to speak for Lexcie, but you couldn't pay me to take the Manhattan Bridge!!
He said a wonderful bridge. He must have some other bridge in mind.
Juries are no more stupid than the general population they are drawn from.
Well they can't be. Nobody can be more stupid than the general population.
As my father is fond of pointing out, "The average is very low."
For example, in a police shooting case, no one who are a police officer or a relative of one are allowed to serve. In Britain, they would still be allowed to serve as under the British justice system juries are still selected "randomly".
WRONG. In Britain, questions are asked of jurors about such conflicts of interest before they sit. Anyone who fails to declare any such matter would be liable to prosecution for "Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice". Yes, the initial calling to the pool of jurors (they are called for a period of time, not for a specific case) is random, but it is checked afterwards. This way you don't get people discriminated against in serving for juries.
The only exceptions I know of for jury service are:
- the mentally or physically infirm
- legal professionals and any employee of the Lord Chancellor's Department (including support staff &c)
- the spouse of legal professionals or any employee of the Lord Chancellor's Department
- sitting MPs
Gidday Mate...ears a bite for you: New York State justice system requires all cases brought into State Supreme Court to be examined by a 'Grand Jury' conveined by law. What takes place is a presentment by the prosecutor, a demonstration of the evidence along with statements by participating law enforcement officials and corroborating witnesses AND the possible participation of defendents. Since the court does NOT determine the outcome of the case, exceptions of participating jurors are few. We have come a long way since 1776. Car Inspector Peter, NYC MTA CED
Has the TA actually SUCCESSFULLY sued the relatives of someone who was killed trespassing? I realize that the person may be wrong, and that the TA is not liable, but I think suing people who just lost a loved one in such a tragic way is why the euphemism "COLD" was invented.
And what would be the point in most cases? The suit wouldn't reach the property of the relatives, only the property of the decedent. I don't know it for a fact; but I would bet money that most subway surfers die judgment proof, i.e. without the proverbial pot to piss in.
Subway surfers die as a contribution to their sport just like unsupervised free fall parachuting. Isn't it enough that they get a memorial spray painted on some slumlords wall??? TD will tell you how his crew has to clean up the pathological biohazards ('Right To Know' training) but have a little pity on us guys finding an eyeball on a tread brake unit. CI Peter
That would tend to ruin your appetite for a few days, unless you were a forensic pathologist and saw this kind of thing on a daily basis.
Still, going to places where you have no business going and doing things that could get you killed is not the sort of activity that makes me feel any sorrow, especially when you are old enough to know better.
That would tend to ruin your appetite for a few days, unless you were a forensic pathologist and saw this kind of thing on a daily basis.
Or unless you're a devotee of rotten.com
Come to think of it, the people behind that site might be railfans (of a sort); lately they've been running a number of man vs. train pictures.
Those pics are fakes like the one with the head stuck between carbody and platform. My crew was breakin chops because I had undercar on the lead R142 after a jumper. How do you inspect airlines and valves: spray, wait for bubbles and wipe. 'Here's lookin at yah.' CI Peter
Works for gas grilles too. Hope you already came to the job knowing that trick and didn't require Special High Intensity Training. Bustini, bustini ...
When I was working for a firm that did litigation, it was only a small part of our case load BECAUSE IT WAS NOT PARTICULARLY LUCRATIVE. Think about it: if suing someone were the guaranteed "ka-ching!" victory that popular culture makes it out to be, we would have done that all the time instead of working mostly on simple bankruptcies, wills and trusts for people whose biggest asset was their house, and criminal defense in minor drug possession cases. Of the lawsuits we took on, we probably lost more cases than we won, and that was after the firm owner had debated, researched, and generally agonized over whether to accept the case in the first place.
The fact that personal injury litigation may not always be lucrative does not mean that there aren't tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of lawyers scuffling for a piece of the pie. Law school has become a natural extension of liberal arts college and a major draw for nontechnical types who lack the skills to get jobs in the real world. As a result, there is a gross oversupply of lawyers, many of whom have to struggle mightily to make even a lower-middle-class living. They'll eagerly take on dubious personal injury cases simply because there isn't enough other legal work to keep them busy. And, therefore, the survivors of subway surfers have no trouble finding legal eagles to handle their cases.
We non-technical types find our world just as real as you do yours.
Subway Surfer? You mean Jackass, don't you? R.I.P.
Eric D. Smith
Subway surfer - Jackass- same difference.
Makes you wonder when and who will file the first lawsuit against the TA?
This may sound nasty and cruel, but if the rising star didn't have a chance to impregnate, the genes will not be passed on for another generation.
I guess he just didn’t listen when mother and dad warned him of the dangers of doing such things - and the consequences.
The sad part is a young life was lost, and before long, nobody will even remember who he was.
Jim Kramer
"Makes you wonder when and who will file the first lawsuit against the TA?"
The TA didn't have warning signs on the end bonnets and a counselor posted nearby to talk the boy into riding in the car as opposed to on top of it.
Sorry, I don't feel sorry for him.
Bill "Newkirk"
Gee, maybe this is why we stopped putting ladders on the end of train cars when they go underground!
Well, he found a way to "stand clear of the closing doors," too bad he couldn't "lay clear of the speeding I-Beam!"
Some people are just too stupid to live. Apparently...
How do we submit this to the Darwin Awards?
JR
Bill and others:
My remark about the lawsuit was 'tongue in cheek'. No way do I feel anyone should even entertain a lawsuit. That should be apparent by the second line of my reply.
Secondly, feeling sorry about the loss of such a young person, while trying such an irresponsible act, is not a crime.
Compassion, sir, is one of the traits what makes us human beings.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
"Compassion, sir, is one of the traits what makes us human beings."
Along with opposing thumbs (which this guy likely had) and common sense (which this guy obviously lacked).
In all seriousness, these incidents are extremely costly to the TA and the City in general. Think about the costs for:
1) The train crew, testing and days off due to stress.
2) The other TA employees who hae to investigate the incident, inspect the equipment or maintain service around it.
3) The cleaning of the train.
4) The cost of police and EMS.
5) The cost of the medical examiner.
Perhaps the City and the TA should sue the estate of this young man for the expenses related tot he above. Perhaps the train operator can sue privately for damages.
Perhaps the NYCT should employ a few lawyers on staff who would do nothing but file suits against the families of the idiots for incidents like this.
This would (1) employ a few lawyers who could not sue the TA.
and (2) possibly defer future suits against the City and the TA with the proper use of publicity.
They could countersue for cleanup costs and for lost revenues while the service was down due to the incident.
Then commuters could file a class-action lawsuit against the family for lost time, pain and suffering, etc.
"My remark about the lawsuit was "tongue in cheek"
MY response to you was also "tongue in cheek".
We live in a strange world where someone files an outrageous lawsuit, it goes to trial and they are awarded a huge windfall. We talk about it in sheer amazement. It seems everone is suing someone these days.
Also, I have compassion for someone who changes cars and somehow falls between the cars and gets killed. It was their intention to change cars and an accident happened. Now to climb between the cars in a subway tunnel and get killed. My compassion would be for his family who learned of his death and must deal with it.
Common sense would have prevented his death, but todays society just does what they please and dom't account fore their actions.
Bill "Newkirk"
Rockin to the max!!! Second only to a big bug cut. CI Peter
>>>>>>>He did not survive the cut.
You mean "he did not survive the splat". At least you can say that he didn't have his brains splattered since he didn't have any to begin with.
My crocodile cries for him. What an idiot.
HEY TRAIN DUDE !!
I think he deserves two "Darwin" awards.
Usually these subway surfers do this in the outdoors before they slam into an overpass. This guy did it in the subway. How the hell can you stand on the roof in the subway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
watch for that (UMMMMPH!!!!!).....i beam.
Maybe those limbo skills came in handy?
Usually these subway surfers do this in the outdoors before they slam into an overpass. This guy did it in the subway. How the hell can you stand on the roof in the subway ?
I guess you can't...
-JR
Easy - in the movies only the bad guy gets whalloped by the beam coming by!
Seriously, though, I'd assume he was lying down, or hanging from the side with only his head over the top of the train, or something like that.
Give the man a break. At least he learned to fly. I don't know of ANYONE who can fly from a northbound local over two express tracks to catch an express on the fly. Surfing USA!
Too bad 'Elevator Action' from Taito hasn't gotten the next generation of 'Darwin Award' winners. Remember the stupid kids in City Housing jumping elevator cabs??? The cousin of 'Taco Bell bin Smokey Joe' pulled something on the adjacent track after a D4 compressor repair...lots of air flying around. Safe in my pit today doing undercar...I don't laugh at these things because I know the hazards. CI Peter
I am offended by your sarcastic attitude. This is a time for impersonal insensitivity and I am ashamed as a railfan that you cannot see that. To lump this fairly typical incident in with something along the lines of an Amtrak stranding or a LIAR screw up demeans us all.
:)
JM -- You are ashamed as a railfan. TD is a railroader. TD has to supervise the hosing down and cleaning of rolling stock after 12-9 incidents. TD has seen things that would make you hurl your stomach. I'm sure that TD is really impressed with your OUTSIDE opinion.
I've attended a few hosings down myself here in Voorheesville. One of the very worst parts of railroading, second only to trying to reassure a buddy that there was nothing in the world he could have done different to stop the greasing ...
Please note the smiley. I am just joshing with him. I wanted to see if anyone noticed that I was making light of his sarcasm with a completely sarcastic reply.
As someone who has attended this type of thing first hand, in all seriousness folks, let's offer a collective dose of moral support, via Train Dude, to the conductor and T/O.
Amen. The crew gets 'written up' for not checking....bottom of the food chain. CI Peter
You know, TD, Mike may be right and we shouldn't be so sarcastic about this tragic incident. An A line T/O is having a really bad day right now and we must not forget the pain he/she is going through right now because of this dumb shmuck that didn't realize that the steel poles inside the train were the ones he should have grabbed onto.
An A line T/O is having a really bad day right now a...
That's been my (serious) take on this subject, too.
My not-serious take is that Ariel Briones died a more exciting death than any of us have. (serious again) It's unfortunate that he had to mess up other peoples' lives at the same time.
In case you didn't realize it my post was completely sarcastic itself. Did nobody notice the smilie face? I was saying that we shoudln't be sarcastic when just plain insensitivity is called for. Sort of like they shouldn't be mocked, they should be laughed at.
As you stated in 305287:
Please note the smiley. I am just joshing with him. I wanted to see if anyone noticed that I was making light of his sarcasm with a completely sarcastic reply.
I noticed the smiley. I can't laugh at someone's demise, even someone that stupid. I'd still like to know how the fella flew across two full tracks after falling off the C.
People are surprisingly elastic.
Can we say Briones' death makes New York is a better place?
Did it happen like this?
My eulogy for idiots like this is short, sweet, and by now, quite well-known.
"You can't live forever."
I dont get it. Simple as that
According to the Post, an Acela regional train stalled east of New Rochelle and it took 5 hours to move it. I assume that this was one of the Acela trains that uses standard equipment since the real Acelas are double ended. Anyway, they hooked a diesel up to it and pulled it to Penn Station.
y'know this is the crap that riles those of us who love trains and despise the ATK "management". FIVE hours to dispatch a motor from Penn or Sunnyside to drag in the dead train? FIVE hours--right four hours to figure out what to do and one hour to do it --sorta like the how many (favorite despised social group) does it take to replace a light bulb? one to do it, six to watch, guffaw, cheer etc...
"FIVE hours to dispatch a motor from Penn or Sunnyside to drag in the dead train? FIVE hours--right four hours to figure out what to do and one hour to do it --"
That was my first thought when I posted the message. Thinking like a railfan, that was the natural conclusion. Then consider it from another point of view, I don't know the BLE schedule of work conditions. It was New years Day. If they didn't have a crew handy, how long did it take to get a crew called in? How much time does the BLE get for a reporting allowance? How long does it take to prepare a loco for road service? Then what is the MAS for a single unit on AMTRAK? On the LIRR, a single unit MAS is 40 MPH.
Likely problems yes, BUT within five hours, they would have had at least one crew northbound w/ a regular train--add an engine ct it off where needed. And in this elapsed time, no other southbound approached? God knows I am not a pro in this business but five hours is a long time.
5 hours to pull a dead AEM-7 (or was it an HHP-8?) to Penn from New Rochelle? I know diesels ain't fast, but man... :)
Actually, knowing Amtrak, 5 hours sounds about right.
1 hour to decide if the train's really broken
1 hour to find a crew and loco
1 hour to get from Sunnyside to New Rochelle
1 hour to hook it up
1 hour to get back to Penn
Oh, yes, and if anyone thinks that's slow 'complain to your congressman, it's not our fault'....
I hope the passengers called Amtrak and asked for a customer service certificate. I always call to get one when I get terrible service -- and Amtrak always gives me one.
One agent tried to talk me out of it but I said "You advertise satisfaction guaranteed. Well, I'm not satisfied. Are you going to honor the advertising." I received the certificate within a week.
Michael
East of New Rochelle? I'm beginning to think that AMTK has no incentive to get that train moving, because it's sitting on MNRR property? Now look at it this way -- Why the hell aren't they dispatching any MN equipment lying spare in NH just to get the train out the way? an FL-9 will do it. AMTK can then pay MNRR handsomely for rescuing its train. Spot-hire is not that difficult if the crew & equipment are handy. I'm willing to bet money on MNRR control saying "it's your problem" while they happily penalize AMTK for "unauthorized occupation of track space".
Also, David, you will never jerpordize a northbound service (or indeed any other service train) to rescue a stranded train.
The failed equipment is likely to be an HHP-8. Shortly before Christmas, an HHP-8 sat down at Hyde Park tying up the mainline for 2 hours. HHP-8 don't have a particularly reliable reputation. They dispatched AMT 525 (GP-40) from BOS to get it. The winter is setting in and the French can't take it so they are sitting down everywhere.
Lexcie
Still think they should have gotten AEM-7s. NJ Transit did and they weren't disappointed. Good luck, MARC.
Well you're quite the johny on the spot with the camera. Good job.
Mudey
That is NOT an ACELA. It's an HHP-8. The ACELA equipment is numbered in the 2000 series, as the HHP-8 is in the higher 600 series (low 600 series used by the remaining E-60 locomotives).
That is NOT an ACELA. It's an HHP-8. The ACELA equipment is numbered in the 2000 series, as the HHP-8 is in the higher 600 series (low 600 series used by the remaining E-60 locomotives).
This exemplifies my opinion that Amtrak was silly for deciding to name all NEC trains Acela. The HHP-8 clearly has the name "Acela" painted on its side, but as UTC Bus Roster points out, when we hear the name "Acela", we think "Acela Express", which is the 2000 series with a single-ended motor on each end of the trainset. The HHP-8 (banana) hauls the "Acela Regional", hence the name "Acela" on its side. The Clockers were to be called "Acela Commuter", which (IMHO) greatly diminishes the connotation of the name "Acela". I think somebody at Amtrak goofed seriously by buying the bill of goods from some consulting firm that told them to name everything "Acela".
Three classes of service known as "Acela Express", "Northeast Direct", and "Clocker" would have been more meaningful and less confusing.
I was about to say, it says ACELA on the side clearly.
The preferred motive power for Acela Regionals coming out of BOS had steadily been AEM-7's. I've not yet ridden behind an HHP-8, and everytime I've photographed HHP-8's on BOS service they had been either in pairs or failed.
I still call it NEDirect, as do the Amtrak Reservations people (if you ask for NEDirect, they will talk back like old timers).
I have several Amtrak timetables that say "NEDirect" for some trains, and "Acela Regional" for others, and "Metroliner" yet others. I'm totally at a loss as to why they are called different names, but with each timetable reprint they seem to have reduced the number of NEDirect trains and increased the number of "Acela Regional" trains. I get the impression that "Acela Regional" was slower than the old NEDirect in order to make Acela Express look faster. A few "crack" NEDirects I used to ride out of BOS had disappeared from the timetables, replaced by "Acela Regional" with more stops and longer timing. This is all except the Night Owel which is now called the Twlight Shoreliner and has a faster schedule now than in the E60 days. The schedule change is probably because of the decommissioning of the E-60's.
Lexcie
Just before electrification, all trains NY-Boston were called NortheastDirect. A 5-hour unreserved local train was called the same thing as a 4.5-hour all-reserved express train. Most trains were locals, but there were a few expresses scattered throughout the day.
When electrification was first completed, trains that used electric engines all the way to Boston (no change at New Haven) were designated Acela Regional. The first Acela Regional schedules made express stops only (presumably to show off the electrification, since there were no Acela Express trainsets ready to do this), making the run in about 4 hours. For this brief period the few Acela Regional trains were the premium trains north of NY, and NortheastDirect became the slow local service. As more electrics were delivered, more trains were converted to be Acela Regional on the timetable.
Now that NortheastDirect is eliminated and Acela Express is also running, Acela Regional is the lower of two service levels. They are intended to make local stops, and do this in about 4.5 hours (the same time as it took to make express stops before). Acela Express trains make the express stops, in about 3.5 hours. South of NY, Metroliners temporarily co-exist with Acela Express as the premium express service.
So the reason Acela Regional seems to make more stops than some of the old NortheastDirect trains is that you're comparing the current local service with the old express service. But note that the current all-electric local service actually takes the same amount of time (usually a little less, I think) as the old express service that ran diesel north of New Haven. It's not a matter of making Acela Express looking faster, it's the juggling around of all the service classes. It was a great way to sneak in lots of small fare increases on the NEC, but that's a different question.
Holy moly...those old GP40TC's are still around?????
I remember when they loaned a couple of them to Caltrain out here in California, the engineers all hated them.
Plenty in numbers. I've seen AMT 184 at Harrisburg, AMT 522 (now renumbered AMT 525) at BOS, and also there are a few others lying aronud in MOW work. Also of interest, BOS has AMT 280 and AMT 294 for pilot work -- both are F-40's. Other interesting engine here is a GP-9, MBTA #1921. Lots of old clunkers out there, AMT 603 and 610 is up in Philly (both E-60's)... I don't know if they still have any FL-9's though. I bet you they are all in Terra Haute just in case they have a big ass wreck and run out of Genesises.
I know about all that other stuff you mentioned...but look close in that original photo of the broken Acela HHP-8 engine -- that is one of the Amtrak 192-199 series GP40TC's originally built for GO Transit up in Ontario doing the towing.
You know, a friend told me they were originally built for GO Transit. I didn't believe him, but I guess he was right. They are numbered in the #52x series now. I did look at that engine up close, I didn't see any green paint (I was trying to establish whether the thing about GO Transit was true).
I'd be amazed if a FL9 was sitting in New Haven. There's no need for a FL9 at New Haven. There's more likely for a FL9 to be sitting at Sunnyside for Empire Service.
Michael
There's no need for a FL9 at New Haven
So what are the F-9 lookalike units that periodically sit at NH, and was painted NH colors? You know, the ones with the odd B-C trucks?
Lexcie
The reason I'm amazed is that I wasn't aware MNRR needed FL9s. Come to think of it, they could be used on the Waterbury and Danbury lines during the week on run throughs to Grand Central instead of passengers changing at Bridgeport and South Norwalk, respectively.
Michael
FL9's painted in NH colors in New Haven, Conn. could be involved with the thru GCT-Danbury or Waterbury weekday trains. They could have been deadheaded there for servicing, especially on weekends, or be spares for those services, and also Shore Line East.
Waterbury and Danbury shuttle trains (RDC's and SPV-2000's) used to be based at New Haven, and would deadhead down the Shore Line to Bridgeport or Norwalk before making their connections.
I just finished watching the Robert De Niro movie " A Bronx Tale." I really enjoyed it and now have it on tape. I am not as familar with the Bronx as many of you are. Where is the Fordham section? He was a bus driver and so I saw no subways in the movie. Is their a line that goes through there or is out of the way. And is the section still Italian? I am really curious after watching the movie to find out if the neighborhood bears any resemblance to the Fordham section of 1960 and 1968, the two periods portrayed in the movie.
if i recall right, some, if not much of, that movie was filmed in Queens - astoria, on 30th av east of steinway. they redid all the storefronts, etc. just for the movie.
Some of the scenes involving the railroad trestle were filmed in Brooklyn. I believe it was near Neck Road on the Brighton Line.
It definitely was the Brighton Line's Neck Rd Station, which still retains portions of the Manhattan Beach line's station adjacent to it.
Alan Glick
If you look carefully their are some circa 1980's condo building on the corner of 15th street and neck road in one of the scenes
Joe: No wonder I thought the place looked familiar. Hell, I went to PS 10 my last year in New York and lived in the Woodside Housing Apartments from July, '53 to September '54 when we moved. I used to walk from my house to Steinway Street to the LOEW's Triborough to see the first or second run movies. Thanks for the info.
no problemo. it was the joke of the neighborhood for awhile, though it was damn nice to see the street spiffed up like that, with period cars and buses around...
The Fordham section is around 190th and 3rd Ave. The Movie is supposed to take place a few blocks south of Fordham Rd, where the father's bus (BX12) runs. Joe is right, most of the movie was filmed in Queens; however, many of the neighborhood shots (such as the beginning where you see the church and post office) are actually filmed on 187th, between Arthur and Belmont, where the movie is supposed to take place. The D train, if you get off at Fordham Rd, is the best way to get to the area by subway. After you get up on the street, you have to walk one block north up the Concourse to Fordham Rd, then walk east towards Webster Ave. (I'm using north, south, etc relative to manhattan and the layout of streets) Its about a 15 minute walk to get to Arthur Ave, walking on Fordham Rd the entire time. During the day I wouldn't worry about the walk, at night you may want to have better awareness. If you don't want to walk, you can take the Metro North Harlem line, and get off at Fordham Rd/Bronx Zoo. That'll put you out at Fordham Rd and 3rd Ave, all you have to do is walk east, past Fordham University. Although Italians still live in the area, it is now predominantly Hispanic. You'd be surprised to see that the Fordham section looks very similar as it did in the 60s, but right on Fordham Rd it looks fairly different. Hope this helps.
It helps a lot MRUFFALO. Thanks for taking the time to answer my post. I knew there was still Italian sections in the Bronx, I just didn't know where.
Around Williamsbridge (across Bronx Park from the Fordham section) there's still a lot of Italians..
Off the No. 2 train---Pelham Parkway, Allerton Ave., Burke Ave., Gun Hill Rd.--If you go east from any of those stations, you're generally in an Italian neighborhood..Well, not exactly Italian, but the neighborhoods there used to be almost completely Italian and Jewish...now there's Hispanics and Orientals and Eastern Europeans, but a lot of Italians still live there.
Thanks Tony, I will keep that in my memory bank. Good to know there are still Italian neighborhoods in New York. They seem to be fast disappearing out to Long Island and Staten Island.
Throgs Neck is another strong enclave of yours truly.
Strange as it seems I have never been there and want to visit it on my next trip in. Some told me it is somewhat suburban with a lot of individual houses and not so many apartments. Is that true. And how is the best way to get there. From the looks of things I will be spending a good deal of my next trip up in the Bronx.
Is thew White Castle still there near Roosevelt HS????
Oh, and for those out here in California, there is a GREAT, TRULY AUTHENTIC Bronx Pizza place out here. Trouble is, it's in San Diego. The owner is a former boxer who lived on Arthur Avenue & 187th. Can't remember his name, but I do know the first name was "Matt". It's the ONE AND ONLY pizza place out here that actually serves "New York style" pizza, not just says it does!!
Sir:
No one can serve "New York Pizza" outside of New York. It's akin to serving a bagel or bialy in L.A.
NY Pizza retains it's taste because of the WATER used here. They may get close fairly close to the original, but unless he trucks in NY water, which I doubt, fugetabouit. I lived in the Valley and Santa Monica for over a year, and I spent many a day searching for something that came close. I ended up having my friends and parents sending FedEx'ed Gino's square pies, at way more than $12.00 a pie.
So true about the water....I agree with you wholeheartedly. The guy in San Diego claims he somehow gets NY water shipped out to him. Having tasted the pizza he puts out, I'm inclined to think he's doing "something" as no other place has ever come near his quality.
Yep, the White Castle is there right across the street. One of my favorite fast food places!
You mean you LIKE those sliders?:-)
I love those things. Any time my "system" needs a good cleaning out, I grab about a dozen of them. They work better than Ex-Lax.
Belly Bombs, Murderburgers....
Love those things...
My favorite White Castle was the one at 92nd Street near 4th Ave. in Bay Ridge...it closed about 6 months after I moved to Bay Ridge in 1987.
My second favorite one is the one at Allerton Ave. and Boston Post Road in the Bronx.
A funny aside about White Castle-
I decided to stop eating them in the mid-eighties, I got tired of the "eat-too-many-of-'em-cause-they're-cheap" stomache ache :)
about 6 months later I was up in Queens in that mall near "Slattery Plaza" or whatever it's called, and said "Hey!!! White Castle!!! Allright!!!" and went in and ate 5 double cheeseburgers..
Of course, riding the train back to Brooklyn, I had a crappy feeling in my stomach, and remembered why I hadn't had those things in so long, and decided not to eat 'em anymore..
So of course, 6 months later--"Hey!! White Castle!!!" etc.
:)
Only way you can get those upstate is frozen ... and not quite the same without the grillwork. Same tummy torture though. :)
You know, I can get them frozen at the grocery store near me...and I live in North Carolina...
My kid (5 years old) used to like cheeseburgers (now, the way he eats, I think he's a vegetarian), so I bought him some once...they tasted just like the ones you would get in a real Whits Castle..
anyway, he ate two of them, and said, "Hey dad, these things aren't very good"
Oh, well
:)
Heh. Must be the sack ... they also tasted a WHOLE lot better after four or five stops on the 3rd Avenue el from the store on Fordham. :)
Yup.
Legend has it that it's the sweat of the cook on the grill that gives them their flavor....ya just can't get that nuking them in the microwave!!!
Microwave?? Me??
:)
I heated 'em up in the oven, microwaves are BAD--to me it's like cooking with a little H-bomb, in my humble opinion.
Off topic
I'm sorry :(
Don't narc us out to the pigs ...
Too late
LOL
From the el at between Knickerbocker and Wyckoff, I noticed they just tore some old buildings down to build a new White Castle. You can see it on the North side from the M train.
Mmmmmm, beef cookies....hey hon, we're eating out tonight!!
White Castle burgers... aren't those the leftovers from the cow chip throwing contests???? ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ahhh...a gambler...you played cow flop bingo!
White Castle.....45th and Queens blvd.......closest station-46th street on the 7 (one block). Lucky me...i live within walking distance!!
I have to drive up to NJ over on 295 exit 36(?) to feed my crave. That is the furthest south on 95 to get those little suckers.
Phil Hom
Wash DC
Your supermarkets don't have frozen belly bombs?
I like them freshly steam grilled. The onions have a different texture when frozen and the bread gets too steamed up.
OK..back on track
Where in San Diego? My brother-in-law lives there and he mises New York Pizza. What's the name of this place? Thanks.
Why, it's BRONX PIZZA, of course!!!!
It's on Washington Street, half a block east of First Avenue. Sort of in the Huillcrest district. Parking in the neighborhood is always a pain in the ass, especially around lunchtime.
Steve, post the address in San Diego where I can get some of that real New York pizza. I will be in Carlsbad in two weeks and it is just a stone's throw from Dago. Let me know will you?
I found good NY pizza in San Diego many years ago. The place was on University and a street named after some state. Florida Street?
Having grown up right in the neighborhood depicted in the movie, I'd say they did a fair job of recreating the neighborhood, even though in the credits at the end, they state it was actually filmed in Astoria.
I do give them credit on the two buses used in the movie, they were done pretty well though not perfectly, to resemble the buses used on the Bx12 to City Island in those days.
The neighborhood WAS Italian -- but aroudn the time I finished high school (Cardinal Hayes, 1968) there was a mix of people moving in.
Yes, there was a subway line -- the Third Avenue elevated...until 1973/1974 I guess (I was gone in 9/68). The next subway line westward would have been the D lien under the Grand Concourse about half a mile up from the neighborhood depicted in the movie.
To be technical they used at least 3 buses in the filming. The GMC old look and 2 new looks.
Steve if you tape the movie and slow it down, you will see that the exterior shots of the New Look were done with a non-A/C bus. Watch the interior shot when the "C" first looks at the black girl on the New Look. Stop the VCR at that point and look at the back of the bus. You'll see a line running across the back indicating an A/C unit on the bus.
I'm sure you'll see my point because as Alice Kramden once said to Ralph after he passes the physical after a night of bowling "and driving a bus is your livelyhood".
Also -- the High School used in the movie is Bryant HS---clearly in Astoria.
That is the high school I was ready to attend if we had not moved to California in 1954. I spend many a summer afternoon there in '53 and '54 playing stickball against the hand ball courts. I was a killer in that sport back then and I would play ten games a day. I even loved stickball better than baseball. The baseball field wasn't a real baseball field, but a track with enough room for a field that didn't measure out to be a real regulation field. I played a few games there as well. I'm surprised I didn't recognize it when they showed it on screen. I thought they would pick out a high school in the Bronx. When I watch the film next time I will be more attentive to detail.
I'll have to pop the movie into the VCR and check it out....thanks for the hint.
Italian areas in the Bronx - think in terms of Williamsbridge Road in the vicinity of Allerton Avenue as a few blocks east of the White Plains #2 line. Arthur Avenue still has Italian bakeries and restaraunts. Morris Park Avenue sitll hosts Italian restaraunts, bakeries and stores. This is particularly true around Morris Park Avenue in the vicinity of Mace Avenue.
I think that movie depicts a lot of the social changes and native mentality of the era. I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1960's and can strongly relate to many of the themes in the movie.
And I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1980's and LIVED the themes in the movie.
How does the NYC-Subway cope with snow and freezing temperatures? Is there some kind of heating-devices built in to the switches and/or in the third rail? In Stockholm, most subway services halted over the Christmas holliday, due to failure of such systems. Badly maintained as they been over the last years due to hysterical cost-chasing. Many trains come to a complete halt as they got isolated from the third rail due to the ice. The passengers then had to walk through the snow on the trackway to the nearest station, after they had been evacuated from the trains.
/B
YER gonna like this New York answer: tower operators are supposed to move switches at least once an hour in the yards to MAKE TRAINS GO....but they forget. My signal maintainer partner told me they had to go out in the yard with newpaper and alcohol to start fires to heat up the rails. Sweden? It's cold out there...go next door and borrow a Lapps reindeer to tow your trainsets. Car Inspector Peter
They where all very busy with something at the northpole, during the christmas holliday :-)
/B
On Amtrak and the LIRR, you can see switch heaters - they burn natural gas and make for a very surrealistic picture when viewed at night.
NYCT has a very elaborate "Cold Weather Plan". It involves various actions that are taken depending on temp. range and snow fall. The steps include:
Alternate lay-up positions for trains,
Mechanical drills where train operators rock trains in the yard.
Trains used to polish the rails or even trains with special contact shoes that scrape the 3rd rail.
Jet Snow Blowers & De-Icer trains
In the yards and in outdoor locations, the switches are heated electrically.
And many other steps includingthe opening of storm command centers.
Hope this gives you a quick overview.
Do they have any diesel locos to run on the tracks if the third rails are really iced over? Seems like that would be a pretty good thing to have around. You could probably throw some sort of heater on the undercarriage to warm the trackway, too.
In fact, one of the cold weather adjustments involves operating "Storm Emergency Trains" on certain lines, like in the Rockaways. The trains consist of four passenger cars flanked by diesel locomotives. The cars aren't powered, but at least they operate.
David
A S.E.T. Crew contains 3 T/O, 1 C/R and 1 TSS. There are four train set up in the system. 2 @ Piken Yard witch has 4 R68's that get sent there from CIY, 1 @ CIY also with 4 R68's & 1 up @ Westceter Yerd when ether 1 five car set of R62's or 4 cars single of R62's witch ever is avable at the time.
All this info is from a TA Buttlen that I have read before. It is 8 or 9 pages long and goes into the whole way the train is supppse to run.
Robert
They only would run 1 train out of Pitkin, 1 out of Coney, and 1 for the whole elevated IRT in the Bronx? That seems like very marginal service. Why can't they put a few more trains out of each yard?
Flooding is more of an IRT problem is I remember correctly.
Even in the real big storm of the 76?77?78? it was the tunnel not the structure that was the problem. That is likely your answer too. It can fall down from the structure and less prone to drifts.
>>Flooding is more of an IRT problem is I remember correctly. <<
Then does the MTA have ferries to run through the tunnels? :-)
3 T/O? That seems like a lot. I could see one at each end (to rock the train back and forth to clear some ice), but I don't know where you'd put a third.
One T/O in each diesel, while the 3rd is stationed in the cab of the passenger cars. IIRC, he has to monitor the gauges on those cars.
-Stef
Ahhh - that makes sense. But if the train is only 4 cars, couldn't it be run "OPTO" with the T/O in the passenger train also serving as C/R?
Not that it really matters, since the service is so limited...
The Snow Emergency Train calls for a C/R. The train isn't OPTO to the best of my knowledge, but you pose an interesting point.
-Stef
SET Consist is Diesel-4 R68 or 5 R62 - Diesel. 1 T/O in each diesel, 1 T/O in head out revenue car to monitor brakes in passenger cars, 1 CR to open/close doors.SET train should be thought of as a rescue train for passengers stranded at stations due to a suspension in service from snow.
Wow ... NOW you've got me wanting to head to the city for "da big one" just to be able to ride and kibbitz on one of those. I never thought you'd be doing pickups on those puppies, just knocking the crap off the tracks. Hooooo doggie! I'll be watching the weather reports on channel 5 now. :)
I have pictures of the SET Train on my website.
SET Train Pictures
-Harry
Thanks for the pics.
You know, I'm going to have to ride this puppy someday...
That thing is just so damn cool - it's even got a little plow on the front!
Yep ... saw them when they went up last winter ... didn't know geese could actually RIDE the puppy. Looks like another occasion for a fantrip annoying the hell out of TSS' along the way. :)
"Hey ... what does this 'Dyn Brake' handle do?" Heh. Many many years ago, got to ride in old "88" in Coney ... definitely less spacious than an SD80.
That still leaves my question.
A 4-car train can be run OPTO, and that's with the one person also driving the train! If it's being pulled (and pushed) along by diesels, that removes much of the T/O's job.
As I said, it isn't a big point, since there are only 3 of these in the city.
Actually, you'd want someone in the regular cars that knows what the red needle and the black needle are for, just in case a brake hose ain't connected the way it left the yard anymore. I'm pretty sure you'd want brakes applying if there was a need, and someone who can tell for certain that the pipes have air. I can definitely see the point if it's running revenue.
Are those passenger cars under power? Are they MUed with the diesels?
Or is it just the breaks that are are working with the diesels like the breaks on a freight train are to a locomotive?
avid
So my Roosian brother says to me in propulsion, 'Alcohol Peter, alcohol, spray Peter spray, psst, psst, alcohol Peter.' Light a match under one of those boids and the switches within 100 yards (and everyone else) will be thawed. Come on Steve, laugh, you're old enough and in long enough to understand my cold sick humor. CI Peter
This is a true story (sort of).
So I get hired by the TA and I report for my physical. There we are, standing in our underware on the 6th floor at jay Street, my friend George Hunter, a russian guy and me. The conversation between the Dr and the russian went like this:
DoctorSo how are you
Russian (in thick Russian accent) I am good.
DoctorDo you speak english?
Russian I speak perrrrfect english.
Doctor How tall are you?
Russian (in thick Russian accent)One hundred sixty two pounds.
That's a good one. Ive got another one for you (100% true story).
About 4 weeks ago, I was working the A line going uptown to 207th Street when close to the terminal, I notice that the door enabler is not lighting up, and the C/R is able to open the doors without the use of the enabler. I call for an RCI at 207th Street and the conversation goes like this:
Zman: The enabler is not working (I explain the above)
RCI (in very thick Russian accent): Da. Vat iz vong again?
Zman: The enabler. It's not lighting up, and the C/R is able to open the doors without the enabler being activated.
RCI: Da. (points to #15 door panel) I cut out door.
Zman: NO NO NO (pointing to the enabler, and now speaking in broken english to get him to understand), ENABLER. NO WORK. (Now pointing to C/R) HIM OPEN DOOR, ME NO PUSH BUTTON. (Pointing to enabler) THAT NO WORK.
RCI: Um, da. (points to #15 door panel) I cut out dis door.
Zman: LETS GO TO THE DISPATCHER'S OFFICE.
These language barriers are rapidly increasing down here. It's tough to do your job when a language barrier pops up at you.
# 1 Job requirement for RCI/CI is to speak, understand and to be understood in english. They ain't slippin' through the cracks. They is overflowing the dams.
It would seem that the guy is at least TRYING ... perhaps some flash cards are in order for such unusual failures ... "I cut out" does cover about 45% of all underground events.
You guys can print up the below - ain't perfect, but it'll do:
Äâåðü äàâàòü âîçìîæíîñòü èëè ïðàâî ëîìàòü
(use Cyrillic code page 1250 to print)
Whoops ... that's "code page 1251" for the Cyrillic to proint properly.
Third shift used to f up my Kleinschmidts. CI Peter
The requirement for the job is to ........... on the books!!!!!!! I like working with everyone...even the new foremen....and when I said 'God Bless and thankyou for your help and understanding' the Indian gentleman drew a sixty second blank. He knows the work well mechanically BUT why should there be a language barrier??? What i do is to keep my big mouth shut in these situations....a foreman wanted me to write up a G2 on another foreman whose English is about 40% understandable. I didn't...I have their respect despite being a newbie probie. I've learned to complete inspection before lending a hand...I'm learning about the smucks who call you 'partner' and leave you emptyhanded thankyouverrymuch. Mebbe TA needs to implement physical abilities testing...can't count the times I'm asked to pull off an inspection cap or shoe beam nut. Wonder what it's like to have a 'Roosian foreman?' The MS test dropped a lot of em for lack of basic stuff and memorising the Blue Book. New tech and the use of DVMs and storage scopes will seperate the men from the BOIS. CI Peter
Are you from Russia?
DA!
Are you drunk yet?
da
Oh Steve...why do you have to post something like this...I'm rolling on the floor. In propulsion 'training' with Simon: "Peter, alcohol, spray, psst, psst, spray alcohol, Peter spray.' A spark would light someones Redbird day...but i love them all. CI Peter
The lay up areas when the cold weather plan is in effect are mostly, if not all underground areas?
That would make the most sense.
Can they store all the MU's within the confines of the existing underground space without affecting service?
WMATA could take some lessons from your crews. Maybe that way Washington Metrorail won't lose over one third of its subway cars to electrical and other failures at the next snowstorm.
With any serious snow, anyone who commutes via the Brighton line usually goes home early, as this is the first line to get snowed-in. I have no idea of what kind of equipment they use to clear the tracks in such situation; with the Brighton line, the snow has to be actually removed, and not just pushed aside.
In my experience, the els and subways are not too affected by snow, tho' subway stations tend to get drifted-in at their entrances.
When was it, the big blizzard, '93? '94? Quite nearly everything shut down. I remember vividly watching Susan Molinari standing in the well of the House of Representatives, next to the Big Bad Newt, happily shutting down the government, essentially thumbing her nose at her SI and Bay Ridge constituents who were unable to get out of their homes.
Why is the Brighton worse off than the Sea Beach? I suppose the snow there could be pushed to the unused express tracks -- but the Brighton snow could also be pushed onto the express tracks. Local-only service is a drag (especially on that line) but it's better than nothing.
Yeah buddy.
I personally experienced a lot of these problems. For instance, at about 9.30 on Saturday morning, 29 December, I took over a train of new C20 stock at Alvik southbound from a driver who needed a relief (he'd been on that train for close to five hours with no break because of the disruption caused by the snow). I initially forgot to insert my key, so I couldn't get my indicator light. When I identified and corrected this problem, I left Alvik.
And couldn't make it up the first hill. The train simply sputtered to a halt after about 100-150 meters or so. The third-rail shoes apparently didn't have enough contact with the third rail to get me the power I needed to make the hill.
I called Control. "Change over to Battery mode," they said. Yeah, that's gonna work great on an upgrade! But I did as they asked -- and slid backwards, going into emergency after about two meters. Good job! So the poor driver I'd relieved climbed into the rear cab (the rear of the train was still at the platform at Alvik) and took the train back into the station. Then Control wanted me to make one more attempt to conquer the hill. So I did -- and got about five meters farther than the first time. THEN the poor driver had to take the train back from me, on orders from Control, and continue back northbound, apparently just to get the damned train out of the way.
After this, I decided to make myself useful by walking around the platform and trying to answer questions. After a few minutes, an announcement came over the PA that the next southbound train was about to leave Abrahamsberg, only two stations away. So I tried to spread this information to people who might have missed it.
The train entered the station and -- WHOOSH -- proceeded through without stopping. Thanks, Control! GREAT information to the passengers, not to mention me!
Anyway, I took over a train of older stock at about 10.30 southbound from Alvik to Hagsätra. The driver I took it over from told me it didn't want to go as fast as it should. No sh*t -- it helped some to use the button to cut some of the cars back in when it got really slow, but it never got really peppy.
Ultimately, I left Enskede gård southbound. There's a gentle rise out of the station, then a few more dips and rises until the last gentle rise into Sockenplan station. In that last "valley," my train ground to a halt. After I contacted Control, they finally ended up asking me to discharge and re-charge in that cab, so I did. I ended up with only 5 kg of air pressure (7 is the minimum to operate). They asked me to change ends and see if things worked better at the other end.
You can't pass all the way through these trains on the inside. On the right-hand side (from the driving position) at the cab end of these cars, there is a little pair of steps that is somewhat semi-serviceable for climbing into and out of the train. But I also had the third rail on that side, so I decided not to chance that. I stuffed my tools into my jacket pockets, and jumped out on the left side through the spotting door.
I fell backwards into the snow; my tools flew out of my jacket pockets and disappeared without a trace in the snow, which was at about nut level or so ;-). (For me, that is -- I'm about 5'8".) So I used my mobile telephone to call Control and report what had happened. The dispatcher sympathized with me, and told me he had a car with a supervisor on its way, and just to hang on.
So I got to spend a happy half-hour waiting in the snow for this car to arrive. When it did, carrying TWO supervisors, it took them an hour and a half just to move the train to Sockenplan. (There was ice on both the third rail itself and on the third-rail shoes. They concluded that my train was completely isolated from the third rail.)
When we got to Sockenplan, we evacuated the train preparatory to taking it to the yard at Högdalen. Naturally, in car 7 we had a drunk who refused to get off. Both a supervisor and I tried talking with him, but it was no use. So we drove the train to Högdalen, taking the center track and waiting for the long arm of the law. After 15-20 minutes, two police showed up and pulled the drunk off the train.
The supervisor who was with me (the other one had gone back to get their car) asked if I wanted to drive the train into the yard. "No, thanks," I said, since I'd only been on the road for about a week at this point and was by now very wary of this train. So he took the controls, and we proceeded toward the yard; moved switches as necessary to go in on track 9; came up to the shed door, opened it, and proceeded into the shed; continued over the walkway in the center to the other side. He hit the brakes and got nothing. He hit the snow brakes and got nothing. He put the train in emergency and got some brake, but not enough. We charged right into the shed door. Ouch.
We looked at each other. We could hardly believe that this day had ended with this crap.
Oh man.
-- Tim
On "The Map", they say the Northbound N or R, they don't make it clear which, skips 45th and 53rd Streets on the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn. Also, they call 45th Street 46th Street. Why does one of these trains need to skip those stations after midnight?
It is the R. Northbound R trains discharge at 59th, run light to north of 36th, and relay with 36th being the first southbound stop. This is so that the R doesn't hold up the W which in turn holds up the N.
Northbound R trains do NOT discharge at 59th. They discharge at 36th Street.
Under normal conditions, the R will run local to 36/4, where it relays onto the n/b express track. It then reverses ends and crosses over to the s/b express and s/b local track where it enters service again. This is timed not to interfere with N and W trains, but at 20 minute intervals during overnight hours, it's not hard to space trains.
We had this discussion when the map came out and made the skiped stations proclomation. That was the answer given. Think about it. Why keep the R in service on that stretch anyway? How many people go from 95th to 45th anyway?
From the one time I rode this part of the line late at night (a few times in 1998), it operated as such:
R trains operated from 95th to 36th St, entering 36th on the northbound local track. After discharging, the train switched to the northbound express track north of the station, where it reversed direction and waited for it's next scheduled leaving time at 36th St, switching from the northbound express-to southbound express-to southbound local track. The West End shuttle did the same thing. The express platform, at least in my experience, was always closed. Twice, it was occupied by trash trains.
The R should be in service because the map says the R is in service! That's enough of a reason, IMO. Besides, if it's going to 36 anyway, why kick off the passengers?
Sorry if this is a repeat, but I didn't see it posted previously.
"Ariel Briones, 20, of 3940 Bronx Blvd., was hit by a southbound A train at Clinton and Washington avenues at 1:37 a.m.
Police said Briones, who was riding alone, fell from the back of a northbound C train when the accident happened.
A witness told police Briones had been riding on top of the train - a dangerous and prohibited practice known as "subway surfing.""
New York Post article
I just found the thread started earlier by Train Dude.
I hereby nominate this individual for a Darwin award. Anyone to second?
Here, here.
MATT-2AV
Unfortunately it is not creative enough for a Darwin. Hasn't this happened several times already this year? It's like there are tye types of movies, funny/cult bad and bad bad. This was just plain dumb and is not deserving of any special award.
>>>Hasn't this happened several times already this year?<<<
No.
From the article:
>>>The last time a subway-surfing incident ended in death was May 16, 2000, when a man riding atop a Manhattan-bound No. 7 train fell to his death.
Peace,
ANDEE
Remember the kid riding on the outside of a D train that Mr. Dude told us about? It's basically the exact same thing.
It happens every once in a while. Some kid will try it because it's cool to do it. They know of the risks. But after watching differnent movies about people running and fighting on top of moving trains and bad guys getting wacked by overpasses they didn't notice coming at them, They figure: IT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN TO ME!!!
Is it cool to hang to the back of an Amtrak train by grab-irons? (or grab-stainless-steels these days, and grab-carbon-fiber-that-isn't-strong-enough in the case of any French product, like the Airbus (or probably the Acela too)).
Lexcie
That happened in Boston one time. Some moron that didnt want to wait for the next train held onto the vents on the side of the top of the train and tried to hold it for the entire ride to the next station. Well the train went into a tunnel and he hit the wall and bounced back and forth between the wall and the train. They say he was probably still alive during the first 7 bounces.
A couple of minor differences. The guy was riding on the side of the train and not the roof. He jumped off instead of falling. He survived although he has a big "42nd St." stamped in his face from when he hit the column at 30 MPH. Otherwise it's the same.
I would say jumping off a moving train in a tunnel is stupider than riding on the roof.
>>> Hasn't this happened several times already this year? <<<
Gee, Mike, give us a break. The year is less than 72 hours old. :-)
Tom
You got my vote.
nothing like early stupidity in 2002
But you know the panrents, there going to say that there son was a good kid, and that he would never do anything like that. Then slap the city with a lawsuit for lets say for $100,000,000.00, Becouse someone shoud have seen him doing it and stop him.
Robert
You have nicely illuminated an important metamorphosis: Every kid who dies becomes an honor student, an exceptional human being without flaws (so of course it's the TA's fault).
I do feel bad for the parents. I don't wish this tragedy on anyone.
Notice that the surfer was 20 years old - legally an adult. If the parents do sue the TA, maybe the TA can get the case thrown out on the grounds that this ADULT surfer was responsibe for his own behavior.
>>> If the parents do sue the TA, maybe the TA can get the case thrown out on the grounds that this ADULT surfer was responsibe for his own behavior. <<<
That is how they would win the case, not get it thrown out of court.
Tom
Better still!
And the TA could sue for lost revenue while the trains had to be shut down to clear up the mess, and for the cleanup fees incurred by having to clean up the brains that weren't bright enough to keep themselves in the skull they were designed to remain in.
Yo Homie T/O: be glad that it wasn't your hand moving the trainset with dumbo upside yo head. Write you up for that. CI Peter
According to what I read,:
"Ariel Briones, 20, of 3940 Bronx Blvd., was hit by a southbound A train at Clinton and Washington avenues at 1:37 a.m.
Police said Briones, who was riding alone, fell from the back of a northbound C train when the accident happened."
This was no KID. THIS WAS A 20 YEAR OLD MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, I didn't know tha the "C" runs at 1:37 am in Brooklyn. You learn something new every day!
They Don't, someone has there facts wrong.
Robert
They were running on a supplement, providing late light express service. This has been done for the last few New Years.
The C was probably runnning that late as part of a New Years Eve supplement around the system.
Normally, the C stops running at about 11pm. This, however, was New Years Eve. The TA extended C service by way of a special G.O. to accomodate the crowds at Times Square. The C ran around the clock for that night.
Forgive me if this has been asked before, but...how can someone fall off a NORTHBOUND A train at Clinton/Washington, and then be hit by a SOUTHBOUND C? At one thirty in the morning?
Aren't all trains local in B'kln at night? That dumbass would have had to fall across four tracks, and three ranks of support columns, and at least two third rails, to be hit by that S/B train!
how can someone fall off a NORTHBOUND A train at Clinton/Washington, and then be hit by a SOUTHBOUND C? At one thirty in the morning
A lucky bounce?
Skill: human pinball
That's true but the "letters" were correct. The C ran all nite New Years Eve thru New Years Day. Extra list personel were utilised.
We've been discussing the R-16's lately and while digging out an answer for Sea Beach Fred I came accross some interesting R-16 facts.
June 6,1963: A three car train of R-16's is assigned to the #7 Franklin Avenue Shuttle. The cars are 6497,6423 and 6443.I believed that they stayed for about a month or so.
September 12,1966: 32 R-16's from both the 6300 and 6400 series are assinged to the GG. "GG B'KLYN-QUEENS" is added to the side routhe sign and "CONTINENTAL AV" and "SMITH-9th ST" are added to the destination signs.
January 11,1955: First R-16's enter service on the #15 Jamaica.
June 20,155: First R-16 train on the #10 Myrtle-Chambers Line
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry:
Nice to see to positive news about my beloved for a change.
Do you know when they were assigned EE service?
R-16: I can't give you an exact date but I can say that by January 15,1970 all R-16s were transfered to the IND Queens Line for EE and GG serivce. Tme March 9,1970 car assignments call for the EE to have 106 R 1/9s and 104 R-16s. The GG was to have 30 R-1/9s,95 R-16s and 54 R-40's. Note that all the remaining 199 R-16s were still in serivce. Note that car 6494 which hit the bumper at south of Broad Street on September 26,1957 was scrapped in February 1958.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I recall most "EE" trains consisting of R-16's about 1974. I was really young, but I can distinctly recall riding one from Macy's at 34th Street to Bloomingdales at Lex/60. My aunt said "What the f--k is this "EE", and where does it go??" It must've been wintertime because I vaguely recall burning my hand on the hot metal heat grille under the seat!!!!! Well, I was only 4 at the time!!! Tony
The "EE" had been running for 7 years, yet your aunt had no idea where it went? LOL.
You think that's bad, my mother still insists that the Lexington Avenue express does not stop at 59th Street.
Peace,
ANDEE
My aunt thought the Dodgers were still in Brooklyn in 1978 until I pointed out they moved to Los Angeles in 1958.
But she can transfer from the BMT to the third Ave el here, right?
In 1968, when I was 11 y.o., I won a 25cent bet/reward from my mother. She refused to believe that the F ran down Houtson Street to Delancey - it would be a D. I said, no, it will be an F. She said I'll give you a quarter if you're right. By the time the train showed up, she promptly forked over that quarter.
It's funny with older people and the subway. My father still calls the L train the LL to this day, no matter how many times he's been on it since.
I always remember seeing the R-16 EE's while waiting for the N at Times Square or 34th Street, and wanting to ride it down to Whitehall, but my mother always said no.
Maybe that's why I love them so much.... Need to see a therapist to help me work through these feelings going back to childhood.
Amazing that in 1970 they had all 199 running, and within 7 to 8 years they were ready for storage and scrap.
R-16: The R-16s suffered the same fate as the R-17,21 and 22s of the IRT. They were just a little to old to be included in the great rebuilding of the late 1980s. They soldiered on while there younger siblings received a new lease on life. There were a few exceptions; the 110 Green R-10s and the 42 Street R-17s plus a few others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The 42nd Street Shuttle R-17s didn't get an overhaul. They were kept clean before the rest of the fleet was and got painted red shortly before they were retired.
David
If I remember the 42 shuttle, WAY back when had some pretty intersting paint job on a few sets. I vaguely remember something like aqua doors (interior) It may have been around 1980 or so (or earlier). I was young, but I do remember it. It stood out because most every other train had graffiti all over them.
That's right. The cars were painted around 1980. The colors were two shades of blue -- aqua or something similar for the walls, and a darker shade for the doors.
David
See, my memory isn't totally shot in the last 20 years!
They were painting door interiors orange in 1980. I do remember the R-17s on the shuttle being nice and clean while the rest of the fleet was utterly desecrated.
The 42nd Street Shuttle R-17s were an exception to the standard NYCT(A) paint scheme of the 1970s/early 1980s.
David
Yeah that orange was something. I guess a remnant of the 70's. I never saw a non-graffiti train with orange doors. But in most cases you could tell they were supposed to be orange, under all the graffiti. That's why the shuttle with the blue and qguq was pretty noticable. I think some of the R16's had gray doors, or they may have been the ones that never made it to orange. If I remember correctly some of the R27-30's also had some gray doored cars.
The orange-and-tan interior color scheme debuted on the R-33/R-36 ML trains when they went in for their air-conditioning retrofits starting in 1978. Supposedly that paint was more resistant to the cleaning fluids that were used to remove the graffiti than the pistachio green and gray paint the MTA began slapping on its cars in 1971.
The R-16 shuttle train's unique colors were actually closer to those the R-29/33/36s came with than what the R-16s originally had. Either way, they looked a lot better than either the 1978 colors or the 1971 combo (ANYTHING looked better than the 1971 combo...)
I remember R16's with the orange and grey door colors. While I won't swear to it, I'll bet the 6400 series cars were the ones with the grey doors, as they were mothballed when the orange scheme was debuted. I remember these grey doored R16's on the J line in 1984.
Am I right or am I just thinking of the R16's grey doors. Were there a few R27-30's with gray doors in the mid 80's. I think I remember a few, but again I may be thinking of the R16's.
Maybe the outside looked like this:
It's funny, I don't remember the outside at all, I was only about 10, but I remember the interior was very dark paint, and very aqua looking.
That's about right for 1982-83.
Right, R-17 6688, currently at Branford, did a tour of duty there in white, but got painted red before she left town in 1987.
Mr rt__:^)
This is true but the 42 Street R-17's always were in pretty good shape living in a protected environment and for several years were the only clean and graffiti-free cars on the IRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Then I raise the question:
Were they really "lemons," or were they just run into the ground?
A little of both. They were mechanically troublesome, but their lack of maintainence magnified these problems exponentially later in their lives.
Well, as May 20, 1970 they had 198 R-16s left; because that is when #6304 met the curtain wall head on west of Roosevelt Avenue, bumped out of the consist by the wayward nose of R40M #4501, whose blind eyes failed to see the "GG" train switching tracks in front of it.
wayne
I remember that one ... NOT pretty ...
Yes, #6304 got a faceful of concrete all right - left side of the car sheared off all the way back to the third door. Point of impact was just to the left (opposite of cab side) of the storm door. #4501, whose fiberglas bonnet and sign window were ruined (the seat opposite the cab was mangled), got herself fixed up and is still puttering around Eastern Division to this very day.
wayne
That wreck was a BIG piece of school car as the steam had barely stopped rising from that mess when I got the motor instructor beatings about "positive communications" in other than head end operation. That one event caused an entire cascade of TWU adventure with everybody pointing fingers everywhere and Ronan of course refusing to face reality. It ended up with a major overhaul of a quirky braking system in the original cars, everybody FINALLY getting a useless radio and no moves without command's approval. But the entire system was at war with itself over that and us TWU brothers had to decide between the "regulars" and the dissident "rank and file" group of the TWU which had a field day with this "we told you so" watershed event.
Bad things happen when you have to operate a train blind from the third car using only a flashlight and a prayer to make a move. I remember it well though. That one event probably did more for system safety than any other crash, and that includes Union Square. That wreck is WHY there's timers and blind trips in Queens ...
4501 probably wouldn't have been so lucky had it hit a BMT standard...
Werent't the R40M's renumbered after their GOH? IIRC, the R40 modifieds were numbered 4250 to 4349.
Yes, they were renumbered.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder if any of those 95 R-16s on the GG in 1970 were the same ones that were loaned to the IND in 1966 during the Jamaica Yard Crisis.
Steve: They probably were. The R-16's fleet at that time consisted of about 195 cars split between the EE and GG. I don't think that very strenuous efforts were made to keep the cars separate.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This car was supposedly "torn apart" by an explosion at the 125th St station in November 1960, and a woman passenger sitting above the bomb was killed. #3221 was supposed to have been repaired and retirned to service.
Does anyone have any further details of this tragic event?
Well the car was repaired and returned to service. Here it is in 1979. Note the WTC in the distance. This is at Smith-9th Streets.
As I've mentioned here before a few times, I'm leaning strongly toward moving to the Philadelphia area this spring or summer (or maybe even sooner if the opportunity presents itself). I've been looking at a few apartment complexes in the area on Apartments.com, and I found a place called Media Station that seems to have the features I want at a more-or-less reasonable rent. For those who are curious, here's the listing:
Media Station Apartments
(Hey, it's got a railroad-themed logo... Bonus points!)
According to the ad, it's within walking distance of the SEPTA R3 Regional Rail Line, another bonus.
Can anybody tell me anything more about this area? I was leaning toward living in the city, but just for kicks, I put the address into MapQuest and got an arial photo of the property (center) and surrounding area, and it actually looks like a fairly quiet, wooded setting. Given all I've been through over the past couple years, I'm thinking that might be a welcome change of scenery for a while. I assume that's the R3 line curving around across the photo? Is that a station there, where the road crosses the tracks? How nearby is the 101 Media route? According to the SEPTA website, Media is about 30 minutes from 30th Street Station on the R3. How long would it take to drive, in average traffic? What's Media like, and what sort of interesting stuff is in the area? I'm hoping somebody here who's more familiar with the area can fill me in a bit.
(And by the way, does anybody else find it very cool yet slightly unsettling that I can type an address and instantly get an arial photo of said address so easily?)
As always, thanks in advance...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Media is a suburban town outside of Philly. Being that I live in downtown philly, im not an exact expert on the area, but i am a news assignment editor in the area, and rarely does any crime headlines come from media.
I think Media is OK, but if you dont have a car, you want to have a place in the city. SEPTA has great service throughout in the city and in the closer burbs 24 hours, but it gets spotty late....so be careful about that.
....PS Media is not all burbs, it is a small town, and places 2 shop are available.
Roads from that area into the city are notoriously bad. The R3 is a good line and it hosts many old Silverliners. The media station building also houses an active interlocking tower. I would recomend the R3 over the Rt. 101 as the R3 is a one seat ride downtown, but the Rt 101 can get you to the big shopping complex around 69th St. terminal. The West Chester RR also runs some fan stuff out past Elwin. That area is very nice and just about the only downside are the abysmal traffic conditions (ie The Blue Rt, Rt 1 and PA 3 are all hell roads).
What Jersey Mike, you don't want to ride the Market Street El about 10 PM on a Friday or Saturday night?
I do some riding on the 'L' here in Chicago on the Southside, but it is always in the daylight, and in the first car.
I was held up between 63rd & 60th in 1969 by a gang of thugs, riding eastbound at about 6 PM. They were 15 or 16, there were five of them, and it happened very fast.
I never made the mistake of riding in the last car by myself again.
Jim Kramer
Assuming I'm working in/near Center City and going to school at Drexel, I'd most likely use the R3 for day-to-day commuting. My car would strictly be for shopping and pleasure driving, mostly on weekends. (If I end up working outside Center City, then all bets are off.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
David:
In all the years that I lived in Pennsylvania, Media was one town that I always wanted to live, but never quite made it. I had a few friends that lived there, but it never worked out because of my place of employment - i.e. a 35 mile one way commute. And that was before the Blue Route - I476 was finished. I say finished, because parts of it were started in the late 1950's and stopped by Mainline NIMBY's (still a lot of clout then). I think the bypass was finally finished in the late 80's.
Anyway, I actually knew someone who lived in the development you mention. It is you typical multi-family structure built in the 1970's IIRC. I know nothing of the property management there, and I've not been in Media except for an ERA convention trip in 1998.
Media is important in that it is the county seat for Delaware County.
Getting back to Media, it is served by the SEPTA Rt. 100 trolley (I spent many an hour after school riding this one). The line starts at 69th St., which means a ride out of the city on El would be involved. The trolley enters Media at Bowling Green, or Providence Road using State Street, which is more-or-less the main business drag. The paralleling Baltimore Pike (US Rt. 30) is the other main street. The trolley serves the downtown area.
The town is one of those you dream of, with side streets full of quaint houses, some containing apartments.
The ex-PRR line however enters Media south of the town center. Where the trolley ends at State & Orange Street, the walk to the now R3 Media station is downhill about .25 of a mile. Mapquest shows the distance between the apartment complex and State Street as .45 miles.
As SEPTA offers its very good bargain Trailpass (weekly or monthly) by zone, the fare via both modes of transportation is the same. The thing about the Trailpass, which is different to how fares work in RTA land, is the Trailpass is your one ticket for ALL SEPTA travel, Regional Rail, El, subway, streetcar, bus, Media, Norristown, & Sharon Hill trolleys. I think Media is in a zone #3, you can check out the prices of the Trailpass on the SEPTA Website.
Anyway, living in Media will require an automobile. In Pennsylvania that means annual state inspection of the vehicle. That is where you bring you car to a dealer/mechanic, and he knows you'll pay whatever to get that new sticker in the windshield, and get your car back. I remember when it was twice a year, so making it annual was helpful, but it is still holding your car hostage, and how much are you willing to pay to get it back. Only a brand new car makes it though state inspection without ANYTHING needing to be fixed. Auto insurance is expensive, but not so much as in the City of Philadelphia. If you're planning to work in the City, you must be aware of the 4.5% wage tax charged to all city workers/residents. Remember that when wages are an issue. That would also be a deciding factor whether to live in the city or not.
If I ever moved back to PA, I'd probably end up living in the City of Philadelphia. I can't even consider owning a car again (see above). The company I now work for in Chicago is headquartered north of Philadelphia - and of course, with inconvenient public transportation, so a transfer really isn't an option.
One other thing piece of information you should know about is that Philadelphia, and Southeast Pennsylvania in general, seems to be very cold when it comes to people. Many, many Germans, my ancestors included, choose this area to live. Germans, by nature, are typically less friendly. I remember once a remark that a friend of mind made, he'd transferred into the area from New Jersey After living in the area about 10-years "Jim, when do they start to accept you around here"? I knew exactly what he meant.
However, living in the Philadelphia area means you have the Amtrak NE corridor available to you. So, Washington, Baltimore, New York and Boston are only hours away.
Hope this helps you, and the best of luck on your decision.
Jim Kramer
former Pennsylvanian
I think the wage tax is deductable from state and fedral income taxes.
Mike:
That is only if you itemize your federal income taxes. It is not deductable from the 2.8%, or whatever the rate is today, that PA State taxes you for the priviledge of living there.
What you may be referring to is that most school districts in the counties surrounding Philadelphia have a 1% wage tax. If you pay the 4.5% to Philadelphia, the city then pays 1% to your local district. I think this still works this way.
Bottom line, it is something to keep in mind when negotiating wages.
Jim Kramer
In Pennsylvania that means annual state inspection of the vehicle.
Can you not evade this by having your car registered at a friend's house out-of-state? I know this is not the idea of the inspection, but I mean, don't lots of people do it?
...Philadelphia, and Southeast Pennsylvania in general, seems to be very cold when it comes to people.
It really depends on what you compare it to, and who you meet. I've met very friendly people in Southwestern PA, and also in Jersey -- within a PATCO ride of Philly. However the sort of surface acceptance you get instantaniously in some places (rural Indiana included) does mean that at a deeper level people hang on to their definition of themselves very dearly, and if you happen to violate that, then best of luck to you. I don't know if this is what the original poster was talking about, but that's my experience with Americans (and people in general) from all over the place. Really the trick is to understand what people's sensitivities are and just be careful.
I think that being from England, I find that everyone is more accepting to the crowd I grew up with, so I had no problem with Southeastern PA.
...the Amtrak NE corridor available to you. So, Washington, Baltimore, New York and Boston are only hours away.
Yup, hours away, and also $104 away. I just bought my BOS-WAS ticket and that was how much it came out. On the contrary, my PHL-CLE ticket was $11.70 (that was on sale though).
Lexcie
"Can you not evade this by having your car registered at a friend's house out-of-state? I know this is not the idea of the
inspection, but I mean, don't lots of people do it? "
Not only would the state take a dim view of that, but so would the insurer.
You can evade lots of things (taxes, auto registration, fares on commuter trains, paying for things at the cash register) but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Can you not evade this by having your car registered at a friend's house out-of-state? I know this is not the idea of the inspection, but I mean, don't lots of people do it?
Not only would the state take a dim view of that, but so would the insurer.
You can evade lots of things (taxes, auto registration, fares on commuter trains, paying for things at the cash register) but that
doesn't make it a good idea.
Registering cars out of state has long been a common practice in Connecticut, where cars are subject to a substantial personal property tax. Most people use vacation houses or relatives' addresses to register their vehicles. Because the tax rates vary by municipality, sometimes considerably, some people take the slightly less drastic step of registering their cars in Connecticut, as opposed to other states, but in different towns.
I have not heard of any insurance complications with this sort of scheme, although people can get hit with substantial bills for back taxes if caught.
In the event your insurance company discovers that you are regularly garaging your vehicle somewhere other than where you've stated on your policy, they have the option of cancelling your policy or billing you for the difference in premium, retroactive to the effective date of the policy.
If the discovery of the false address comes as the result of investigation of a claim that has been filed, the options an insurer has are a bit more limited...
In the event of a comprehensive or collision claim, the insurer can deny the claim or subtract the premium which would have been owed from the claim payment.
On a liability claim, most states require the insurer to pay the injured third party and then pursue recovery from their policyholder.
CG
> In Pennsylvania that means annual state inspection of the vehicle.
> Can you not evade this by having your car registered at a friend's
> house out-of-state? I know this is not the idea of the
> inspection, but I mean, don't lots of people do it?
Sure, you could do that. But I hope you're never in an accident with someone who does this and they are at fault. When their insurance company finds out they've been lying about their primary garaging of their car and where they use it, their policy will be cancelled and you'll be S.O.L. trying to reclaim money from them. On the other hand these kind of people love to settle in cash up front.
Also, since the nearest state to that part of PA -- NJ -- has bi-yearly inspection and higher insurance rates anyway, why would you even bother.
Also, since the nearest state to that part of PA -- NJ -- has bi-yearly inspection and higher insurance rates anyway, why would you even bother.
In spite of New Jersey being notorious for having the highest car insurance rates in the country, many Philly residents surrepticiously register their cars in South Jersey for the lower rates.
Inspection is now every other year, so some cars will fall apart between inspections.
Having just moved from Queens to Brooklyn, and having had my auto insurance jump a whopping 30%, New Jerseyans can just cry me a river about their insurance rates. Sure, on average, New Jersey has the highest insurance rates, but that's only because it is a small, populous state sandwiched between to large cities. When you average places like Plattsburg with New York City, of course New York has better rates, but where you live in New York makes a BIG difference! I doubt any one car-owner in Jersey is paying more than I am to insure a brand new, black, American-made compact car.
From a practical standpoint, I fail to see how moving from areas with the same relative population density and within the same city causes this 30% increase, but the formulas the insurance companies use are their own. I think it goes by zip-code, and I have the bad luck of living in a zip-code with historically costly drivers.
As far as inspections go, I was surprised while spending Christmas in Ohio to find that that state has no auto inspection whatsoever. Judging from other messages in this thread, that seems to be the case in the midwest. Having grown up in PA, lived in Virginia, DC, and NJ, I just assuemd all states had annual inspections. Be glad there's no personal property tax on cars in PA/NJ/NY. Virginia's political campaigns of late have been shaped by the issue of repealing the car tax there.
Having just moved from Queens to Brooklyn, and having had my auto insurance jump a whopping 30%, New Jerseyans can just cry me a river about their insurance rates.
I recall reading a very interesting statistic some time ago. On a nationwide basis, X percent* of multi-vehicle motor vehicle crashes result in personal injury lawsuits. In Brooklyn, however, about 2X percent of multi-vehicle motor vehicle crashes result in personal injury lawsuits. Put another way, Brooklynites are about twice as suit-happy as typical Americans, who of course are hardly suit-adverse themselves. Sky-high insurance rates naturally follow. What is particularly ludicrous about the whole matter is that multi-vehicle crashes in Brooklyn are almost certainly less likely to result in significant injuries than in most other parts of the country, given lower urban speeds.
* = Needless to say, I don't remember what X was, but it's really not relevant for the point I'm trying to make.
"Put another way, Brooklynites are about twice as suit-happy as typical Americans".
Actually, it's worse than that. Consider that New York has a "no-fault" law, which is supposed to eliminate the ability to sue except in the most serious cases. Most other states do not. The biggest issue in Brooklyn (and to a lesser extent, the Bronx and Queens) auto insurance rates are the number of chiropractor visits, MRI's and other soft tissue related injury treatments which are paid for by no-fault coverage, and then used as documentation that a "serious" injury has occurred thereby allowing the lawsuit.
Without the no-fault law, 2X would likely by 3X or more -- but overall costs might be lower.
CG
"From a practical standpoint, I fail to see how moving from areas with the same relative population density and within the same city causes this 30% increase, but the formulas the insurance companies use are their own. I think it goes by zip-code, and I have the bad luck of living in a zip-code with historically costly drivers"
Actually, in New York it's the state that limits the way insurers can rate auto insurance by location. Queens has two territories (effectively western and eastern Queens). Brooklyn has always been one territory, and political influences have conspired to keep it that way.
The size of the differential between Brooklyn and Queens has developed over the last 10-15 years -- a not so surprising correlation with the rise in influence of Russian organized crime in that borough.
CG
As far as inspections go, I was surprised while spending Christmas in Ohio to find that that state has no auto inspection whatsoever. Judging from other messages in this thread, that seems to be the case in the midwest. Having grown up in PA, lived in Virginia, DC, and NJ, I just assuemd all states had annual inspections. Be glad there's no personal property tax on cars in PA/NJ/NY. Virginia's political campaigns of late have been shaped by the issue of repealing the car tax there.
Connecticut has an annual emissions test (a total scam), but safety inspections are required only when registering vehicles over ten years old. As I mentioned elsewhere, Connecticut also has a very burdensome personal property tax on cars, yet for some reason it hasn't become much of a political issue, at least not yet.
Regarding New York safety inspections, the conventional wisdom is to pick carefully the place where you bring your car for inspection. There is a definite advantage to being a steady customer of a garage that's authorized to perform inspections. And never bring your car to a dealer for inspection, as invariably they'll discover a problem that will be costly to fix.
And never bring your car to a dealer for inspection, as invariably they'll discover a problem that will be costly to fix.
Interestingly enough, that's not the case in North Carolina. Down there, if you don't have an established relationship with an independent mechanic, a franchised dealership is the safest place to go. A lot of quick-change oil franchises also do inspections, and they're pretty reliable, although they also sell a lot of wiper blades :-) I usually replace my blades, if they're at all questionable, right before inspection, and then go to the quick-change place, since my regular mechanic doesn't do inspections; when my wife is taking one of our cars in, though, I have her go to the Ford dealer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From a practical standpoint, I fail to see how moving from areas with the same relative population density and within the same city causes this 30% increase...
Of course, you are free to choose not to move to that area, or take out insurance with a different firm who may or may not charge you less, or you may drive uninsured and risk the consequences. Or indeed you can choose to part with your automobile. I think that's the strength of the American system -- you almost always have a choice.
In Europe, they screw you twice over: first of all, they tax you like hell just so they can provide a transit system; then they provide an ineffective transit system so you have to buy a car; then they make legislation that require you to have motor insurance; then they make insurance rates the same wherever you go so that you don't have the option of moving to a lower-crime-rate area... etc. etc. It's even worse with healthcare -- they take $ off your paycheck to pay for the care for chain-smokers and other people who don't take care of themselves...
In california you have to pass a smog test every 2 years ( unless you car is a diesel or 1973 & older ).......... i got a diesel .....lol
!!
I remember the auto insurance NIGHTMARE in atlanta georgia whew !! & having to have a p.o. box OUTSIDE atlanta in order
to afford the state min. ....( marta was still under construction then & i guess now ) The buses really SUCKED big time back then
1983 1988 & auto ins. was way 2 HIGH !! .....yuck !!
& the auto insurance ( checkpoints )"crackdowns in the black sides of town only" like east point college park etc..
Cali-, anit no picnic either however being RETIRED you can get a break ....
The PE system is gone & the laRy as well...
That was the plan all the time destroy all RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS NATIONWIDE !!
In california you have to pass a smog test every 2 years ( unless you car is a diesel or 1973 & older ).......... i got a diesel .....lol
You have a diesel GM? Sorry, man... <g>
...i got a diesel...
When did you trade? Last week you had a 307 Olds engine in your Chevy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess you believe people with tuberculosis should be left to cough into your face in a crowded elevator, or in crowded schoolhouse hallways.
An article I read some time ago said that tobacco taxes fully cover the extra social costs tobacco use entails -- including health care. Ditto for alcohol taxes.
then they make legislation that require you to have motor insurance
Which is the case in nearly all states of the US. That doesn't mean that there aren't drivers driving unregistered/uninsured cars.
"I think the bypass was finished in the late 80's"
Close, The enitire thing was finally finished and opened in December of '92. They've already started re-numbering the exits and they make absolutely noe sense. Go figure.
I believe, though not certain, that PA exit re-numbering is statewide. Drivers from other states have always thought PA's sequential exit numbering was confusing, since many surrounding states number their exits using milage from the border. PA has finally decided to follow suit. For example, on my drive back to NYC from vacation, I noticed I-78 has renumbered their exits using milage, but most signs have a smaller sign mounted below indicating the "old" exit number. This actually makes much more sense. When you build a new exit, you just number it according to the mile marker, instead of having to make it EXIT 8-A to differentiate it from EXIT 8. The exception is the PA Turnpike, which is run not by PennDOT, but by the Turnpike Commission. In fact, I think the other Interstates in PA used the turnpike as a model in their original, sequential exit-numbering scheme. New Jersey acted accordingly. The "8-A" example above is from the NJ Turnpike's Cranberry exit, which I assume was added sometime after exit 8, Hightstown.
On my post 9/11 drive across the country, I noticed that I-80 exits have been renumbered based on mileage as well.
CG
On my post 9/11 drive across the country, I noticed that I-80 exits have been renumbered based on mileage as well.
Ditto for I-70 from Denver to the Pennsylvania Turnpike, on my September drive home... although I think there may have been one state where that wasn't true... not sure though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In california you have to pass a smog test every 2 years ( unless you car is a diesel or 1973 & older ).......... i got a diesel .....lol !!
I remember the auto insurance NIGHTMARE in atlanta georgia whew !! & having to have a p.o. box OUTSIDE atlanta in order to afford the state min. ....( marta was still under construction then & i guess now ) The buses really SUCKED big time back then 1983 1988 & auto ins. was way 2 HIGH !! .....yuck !!
& the auto insurance ( checkpoints )"crackdowns in the black sides of town only" like east point college park etc..
Cali-, anit no picnic either however being RETIRED you can get a break ....
The PE system is gone & the laRy as well...
That was the plan all the time destroy all RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS NATIONWIDE !!
I think the other posters have done a good job of describing Media.
I will remind you that you will feel a little more constricted in your travels. Chicago has much better subway coverage than Philadelphia, and while SEPTA commuter rail does a decent job of covering other Philly neighborhoods, it offers only hourly rail service most of the time.
Bus service is pretty decent in the city, but I don't know much about the suburban division.
I don't know much about your budget. For comparison sake, have you considered neighborhoods along the Schuylkill, like Bala Cynwyd, or Manayunk and Roxborough? Also, older sections of Germantown have big beautiful houses on generous lots for not a lot of money - and heavy bus services, along with the R-8 line, are nearby. Another attraction is that you can walk into Fairmount Park from there. Fairmount Park is an urban green wilderness that runs for 7 miles (and you forget you're in the city). I am in the midst of moving there - my neighbors will include a member of the Philadelphia orchestra, lawyers, doctors, clothing designers, teachers and realtors...
Ron, are you Bayside as in SFO or Bayside as in Masschusetts Bay? If you're from here, we're sad to lose you from Boston! heh!
I lived in Bayside, Queens until Jan of 2001. Then my wife got a new job and we moved to Philly. I'm living in Manayunk, but we're trying to buy a house...
About 20 years ago, i lived in Manayunk back in the day when it was still a real working-class community. I remember the commute was horrible. Take the R6 to the El, take it to 5th, and walk down to the station on South Street. Took me the better part of an hour. Of course, this was back in the day when the Cynwyd train still ran across that big concrete bridge over the Schuylkill to Manayunk. Its a wonder the cynwyd line still runs....they only get about 300 riders a day
... does anybody else find it very cool yet slightly unsettling that I can type an address and instantly get an arial photo of said address so easily?
No. What are you going to do with an aerial photo?
If you're going to bomb the s**t out of the place, what good would an aerial photo do? Wouldn't driving directions be more useful?
Lexcie
I was thinking more along the lines of privacy issues.
Example:
1) Lady gives you her phone number, or you otherwise find it out.
2) Go to some website like Verizon.com and do a reverse look-up of the number, which gives you the street address.
3) Go to MapQuest and get an arial photo of her house and neighborhood.
What could you actually do with this photo once you have it? Well, probably not much, but it all just seems a little too easy, and slightly creepy.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(And by the way, does anybody else find it very cool yet slightly unsettling that I can type an address and instantly get an arial photo of said address so easily?)
Nope, if someone wanted to kill you, they'd have the address anyway, so they'd go to your house. I guess spying could be a problem for the paranoid. The really detailed ones aren't availible to the public (for free, anyway).
Aerial photos like that made primarly for surveying purposes. A low flying plane takes the pictures. The process is called Aerial Photogrammetry. Most state gov'ts (plus the USGS) have an agency that does this. They sell the photos, which are way more detailed than what you can find at Mapquest and other places, to engineering firms so that they won't need to go through the expense of paying a surveying crew to traverse the area.
I'm visiting Salt Lake, and drove out around the light rail line, which apparently shares trackage with a frieght railroad. There were at least 10 active industrial spurs I spotted along the line, all signalled.
My question is:
Does UTA-Trax have to be an FRA "railroad" to haul freight like that?
It was kinda interesting. I got visions of steeple cabs pulling the cuts of cars around....
Dave
I believe they have to use time of day separation between
the freight and passenger traffic. That freight operation
is presumably not just local but has interchange with the
national network, so you bet the FRA is involved.
They most likely got a waiver from the FRA, as the Baltimore MTA did.
I'm not sure how, but even after the BWI bang-bangs the waiver continued and was even renewed.
I think one other Light Rail line has an FRA waiver for freight operations as well, but the info escapes me at the moment.
That other system is San Diego Trolley. The freights may operate only between certrain hours, and if they are out in, for instance, El Cajon, when their time is up, that's where they have to park the loco so the Trolley can start operation.
Interesting. I have personally witnessed the NS (Ex-CRR/CSX) stone train running southbound out of Timonium with an LRV following right behind (1 signal block) it. This was at 7:15 AM on a weekday rush hour. The LRV service starts at 5:45 AM. The train has also gone north while the cars are still running at 1:15 AM (on ballgame nights).
Shakes up the passengers waitng on the (low-level) platforms on the lime.
And for decades, ending in 1973, the Chicago Transit Authority and predecessors hauled carload freight from a Milwaukee Road interchange at Buena Yard to several customers along the North Side "L." I believe freight operations took place mostly if not entirely at night, on the westernmost of the four tracks.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Don't forget the Newark City Subway, which now shares a stretch of track with the Orange Branch. Once revenue service to the last two stations begins -- supposedly w/i a few weeks -- that will also be a time share arrangement.
There is also a diesel LRT system being built from Camden to Trenton that will use this arrangement.
When the IND Sixth Avenue line opened in 1940, it provided local service only. The express service I believe began in 1968 or 1969.
Three questions:
1. Is the express section of this line in a seperate tunnel from the local tracks?
2. If so, was it constructed in the 1960's or was it built earlier or at the time of the original construction(1930's)?
2a. If the tunnel pre-dates the 60's, did it contain the tracks already laid?
3. Why a long gap in establishing an express service on the 6th Ave Line?
Thanks,
Tunnel Rat
>>> Is the express section of this line in a seperate tunnel from the local tracks? <<<
Yes
THIS should answer most of your other questions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
Thanks Andee. I didn't know the lower level was constructed with an option to convert to an express stop! Now I'll have hives until the express resume running, and I can get an eyeball full of the tunnel construction.
That would kill the dash, but a 14th St express makes a little bit of sense.
avid
It's pretty interesting that both 14 & 23 have provisions to be converted to express stations if need arises. I can understand 14, because of it's connection to the L, but why 23?. Actually the 6th Ave express is not really an express anyway, it basically stops at every station. (even when running properly with the MB) Most of the stations are "express stations" 14 and 23 are the only local stations anyway.
23rd has the connection with PATH
Yeah, but so do 14th and 34th!
- Lyle Goldman
1) The express tracks are seperate from the local tracks between 34 and W4 sts. They're lower than the local tracks.
2)& 3) When the line was being built, express tracks were planned. NYC was going to take over the H&M (now PATH) tracks and use them. But those tunnels were built for cars that were shorter than the IND cars. For the sake of money (there was a deppression going on) work was put off for another time.
Thanks.
One question not answered yet.
Was the physical tunnel for the express tracks built in the 30's or did the TA actually build/excavate this tunnel in the 60's? My father had a business along 6th Ave and, during the sixties, I would as a child visit him there. I was too young to remember actual scenes of construction--if built then and not the 30's, it must have been quite an engineering feat what with the increased auto and bus traffic on the street above and despite not having the El of 30 years earlier. I do understand that the tracks were laid out in the 60's, but perhaps the tunnel was built then as well.
Tunnel Rat
It was dug in the 60s. There was a shaft on w12th St for the removal of debrie and entrance of building material. It was just west of 6th Ave IIRC.
avid
As I understand it, a tunnel was planned in the 1930's. However with the H&M tubes there and the fact the tunnels were built to specs for H&M trains, which were shorter than the IND, the plans were scraped. In the 1960's when the express tunnel was built, It was built below where the tracks along 6th Ave are now. Probably in the 1930's, all that was built were tunnel leads at the s/e of 34/6 and the n/e of W4.
As I understand it, a tunnel was planned in the 1930's. However with the H&M tubes there and the fact the tunnels were built to specs for H&M trains, which were shorter than the IND, the plans were scraped. In the 1960's when the express tunnel was built, It was built below where the tracks along 6th Ave are now. Probably in the 1930's, all that was built were tunnel leads at the s/e of 34/6 and the n/e of W4.
Huh. That would have been a NON-trivial thing to construct, putting express tracks under the IND Sixth Ave local/PATH combo ... woof. Esp since they couldn't just deep-tunnel 'em since 23rd and 14th both can be converted to express and hence have to be directly below the locals.
I've seen a lot about the Chrystie Connector happening in the Sixties, but hadn't known at all about this. Were there other little "fixes" or tweaks that got done at the same time?
Incidentally, it's been widely said that building the IND through Herald Square was the single most challenging piece of subway construction ever done in NYC (since BMT and PATH already existed there).
Incidentally, it's been widely said that building the IND through Herald Square was the single most challenging piece of subway construction ever done in NYC (since BMT and PATH already existed there).
And they had to support the old 6th Ave el in the 30's also, and I believe trolly lines! Very complex construction.
And they had to support the old 6th Ave el in the 30's also, and I believe trolly lines! Very complex construction.
Don't forget 4 LIRR/PRR tracks, too!
That's right! A real nightmare. It's a good thing that they built it back then, think of the cost of that line now, even without the el and trolly tracks there. It probably would not have been built in the present, even though it is a very important line!
Which is why I think the original IND builders erred in basing the first system on an 8th Ave/6th Ave trunk. I think an 8th Ave/2nd Ave system would've been better. The Broadway line basically paralells the current 6th Ave. line, and the city probably knew they were eventually going to take it over.
Which is why I think the original IND builders erred in basing the first system on an 8th Ave/6th Ave trunk. I think an 8th Ave/2nd Ave system would've been better. The Broadway line basically paralells the current 6th Ave. line, and the city probably knew they were eventually going to take it over.
Hmmmm. OTOH, more pressure to build on Sixth due to Rockefeller Center opening and the realization that a subway would allow them to tear down the Sixth Avenue El and make all that midtown land VERRRRRRY valuable to real estate developers ... and hence improve tax values, leading to more revenue for the city. (More proportionately than on 2nd Ave which is mostly too far east to be part of CBD.)
'Course, then they tore down the Second Avenue El anyway.
I'm *still* fascinated by the notion of the Sixth Avenue line without express service until the mid-Sixties between 34th and 4th. Wow.
It's hard to imagine the sixth Avenue without express, or never built. It seems like such an important line! But I guess if 2 Ave was built in the 30's, we couldn't imagine not having that either. It's another important project, that is very long overdue.
The 6th Avenue express is one of the least important express runs in the system. It only skips two stops. Notice that it's not in use now. Four tracks are necessary for the Chrystie Street connection to work, but otherwise it's pretty unimportant.
No I mean the whole 6 Ave line not there. I meant it is two seperate what ifs. 1. Not having the whole line, or 2. not having the expansion to 4 tracks in the 60's. Yes, the "express" is a joke , but it increasaes the capacity of the line by two tracks. Imagine if 6 Ave was only two tracks permanently. It would forever be like it is now with the MB closed. That capacity is a neccesity, even if the express only skips 23 and 14.
But the connection to the Manhattan Bridge didn't open until 1967. So why is it so odd that there was no express until 1967? The two local tracks sufficed.
I guess the 4 Broadway tracks can handle the traffic, but do you really think that the current service is better than when the MB is fully open and 6 Ave service uses all 4 tracks and Broadway uses all 4 tracks? The way things are now with the MB closed are a shadow of the real service before the construction. (It was just as bad when Broadway lost it's MB tracks)
And to think that when they opened the Christie St connection (before which service from deKalb was very much similar to what it is now) so many people complained about the reuction in service!
>>> I think the original IND builders erred in basing the first system on an 8th Ave/6th Ave trunk. <<<
It is only an error when you apply 20/20 hindsight. The purpose of those lines was to put the Ninth and Sixth Avenue Els out of business. They succeeded in that. The Second System would have provided the new line to the East side of Manhattan. The original builders believed along with most of the isolationist country in the ‘30s that we would not be drawn into any of the problems in Europe or Asia, and therefore the Second System would be built in the ‘40s.
Tom
Actually, I was proposing that a 2nd Ave/8th Ave "H" system not unlike the IRT would be the only 2 Manhattan IND trunk lines. The 6th Ave line was extremely difficult and paralleled by the Broadway BMT.
Which is why I think the original IND builders erred in basing the first system on an 8th Ave/6th Ave trunk. I think an 8th Ave/2nd Ave system would've been better. The Broadway line basically paralells the current 6th Ave. line, and the city probably knew they were eventually going to take it over.
There is also a high pressure water main coming from upstate under there. Water Tunnel #1 I think.
There is also a high pressure water main coming from upstate under there. Water Tunnel #1 I think.
And they broke it during the construction of the express tracks.
Someone (not me!) should assemble all the information presented here and update the FAQ on the Herald Sq station, and all the complexities involved in their building.
Does anyone actually know how they addressed the complexities, especially when building the express tracks in the 1960s? Some questions I'd like to hear the answers to are:
- How did they build the express tunnels directly below the local or PATH tunnels all the way from 31st down to 8th St. without stopping local or PATH service?
- At 31st Street, how did they get the express tunnels under the PATH (which terminates at about 31st St) but above the LIRR without disruption?
- What is the track arrangement at 14th St.? Do the express tracks tunnel below the L tracks?
- How do you get out of the PATH at 14th Street on the uptown side? The PATH tracks are inside the local IND tracks, but somehow you wind up on the street on the east side of 6th Ave., not on a mezzanine. There must be some kind of enclosed catwalk over the uptown local IND track.
The IND station at 34 St - Herald Square was originally built as a 4 track station. It extends from about 33 St to 35 St. If you look along the platform from the north end (35th St) you can see where it dives under the Broadway BMT at 34 St, and then rises up at 33 St to clear the LIRR & Amtrak Tunnels which cross under at 33 and 32 Sts. Fortunately, the LIRR and Amtrak tunnels are deep enough so that the IND subway was able to cross over the LIRR and Amtrak tunnels and, at the same time, pass under the PATH tracks which end at 33 St. The IND local tracks then rise to just below street level at 23 St, flanking both sides of the PATH tracks, which run down the middle of 6th Ave. The IND express tunnel from 33 St to 8th St was built as a "deep rock" tunnel, far enough below both the IND local and PATH tracks so as not to interfere with service on those lines, except for the 2 week disruption in 1962 caused by a water main break which Stephen Bauman pointed out above.
At 14 St the IND express tracks pass under the L tracks, which, in turn, pass under the IND local and PATH tracks. The IND platform extends north from 14 St, while the PATH platform extends south, so there's no need for PATH passengers to cross over or under the IND platform.
Heading south from 14 St the IND local tracks dive down to the express level, at the same time the PATH tracks drop down one level. In this way, the 8th Ave IND tracks coming in from Greenwich Ave are able to pass over the PATH tracks, which in turn, pass over the IND 6th Ave tracks as the PATH turns down Christopher St.
As you can see, the 6th Ave subway is a remarkable example of civil engineering and construction.
PATH 14th Street customers exit ro rhe street heading towards 33rd and share a common exit with the subway heading towards New Jersey. To enter PATH to NJ, you go upstairs to the Sixth Ave subway mezzanine, exit the turnstile and then go down the stairs to PATH.
Victor M,
Fascinating, fascinating, fascinating! Thank you and the others for giving a detailed account of the 6th Ave physical layout that seems to be missing or incomplete in every written work about this. I wonder why Brennan, Fischler, or Cudahy never put in a graphic illustrating the actual physical layout of what route goes under/over/alongside what in regard to 6th Ave. Now we have it, and thanks to ST'ers. I hope this gets placed in FAQs and gets digitally illustrated in Peter Donoghue's Track Maps.
Thanks again,
Tunnel Rat
Indeed. The 6thAv spaghetti, and how it came to be, does need some explanation, and this is the site to do it.
The A&E Documentary "Subway" had a great graphic of the "spaghetti", as you called it.
Also, a short description of the line, and a detailed timeline of construction of the IND is available in my history of the IND right on this site!
--Mark
Thanks for a very detailed response.
I was in the neighborhood of 14th and 6th just now so I thought I'd take a look at the levels there. There are tracks on 4 different levels!
The mezzanine with fare control is down about 20 feet. The F tracks are down another level, maybe another 15 feet. The PATH is behind the wall of the mezzanine, 20 feet down, one level above the F. To exit from the northbound PATH you go eastward and up 2 steps, crossing over the northbound F tracks (without seeing them, of course).
Then of course the L is down a level below the F, and the express tracks are yet another level (or more) below that.
In cross-section looking from the east you have:
6th Ave-->--------14th----6th Ave->
--PATH platform ----F Mezzanine----
--------------------F platform-----
-------------------L---------------
----------express tracks-----------
I like your graphic! I wonder why they didn't connect the northbound PATH platform with the northbound F mezzanine they way they did in the southbound direction. If they did, PATH pasengers from New Jersey could connect with the F or L without having to go above ground in inclement weather. By the way, did you notice that long corridor under 14th St to 7th Ave that enables a free transfer between the 1,2 and 3, and the L and F? You access it from the L platform just west of 6th Avenue.
"I wonder why they didn't connect the northbound PATH platform with the northbound F mezzanine they way they did in the southbound direction."
I'm guessing that the stairs that lead from the southeast corner of 6th and 14th directly down to the L (without going via the F east mezzanine, which only starts on the north side of 14th) get in the way.
As you know, it's a very complicated station and would take some thorough exploring to really understand. I only looked at it from outside fare control this evening.
I think you already understand it very well. One time I helped some tourists go from the L platform to the New Jersey-bound PATH platform. They found it hard to believe when I told them "It's about four flights up, then down a corridor", but I showed them the way.
"I wonder why they didn't connect the northbound PATH platform with the northbound F mezzanine they way they did in the southbound direction."
I'm guessing that the stairs that lead from the southeast corner of 6th and 14th directly down to the L (without going via the F east mezzanine, which only starts on the north side of 14th) get in the way.
I suspect it has to do with pre-existing building on the site. There's an old department store there (just converted to very pricey condos) which contains the PATH entrance but could well pre-date PATH and clearly pre-dates the BMT and IND. It's old enough where it might even have sidewalk vaults. I bet that the construction to do what you're talking about would use chunks of their basement.
That's pretty complex there also. So the 6 Ave exprss tracks are below the F tracks?
This can't be referring to Water Tunnel #1. That is extremely deep (hundreds of feet deep). Also, there was no redundancy at the time. If the main tunnel had been breached hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers would have been without water.
It must be some other sizeable water main but not the primary tunnel.
Water Tunnel #1 is under 6th Avenue. The main valve room is located somewhere in the vicinity of 39th or 40th street, I believe.
However, the water main that was damaged was not Water Tunnel #1. Had it been, the city would have had to close the gate valves in the main valve room. Because of lack of maintenance (simply because they could not shut off the water), it is likely that they could not have reopened the valves any time soon!
Once Water Tunnel #3 is operational, the city will redo #1's valves.
How far along are they on tunnel #3? It seems like they have been working on it for a long time. When is the estimated time of completion?
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dep/html/watersup.html
You have to remind yourself that this is one of the *great* civil engineering feats of all times, ranking with the pyramids.
And look at what's on the tunnel floor in this photo. Until water starts flowing through it, it's the city's deepest subway line! :)
Looks like the London Tube on steroids. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Looks like a nightmare I have sometimes.
Yes. Looking at the ultra-deep boring for this water tunnel, you wonder why there has not been discussion of building a subway line way down deep; super-long escalator runs could let a station serve a 15 or 20 or more block radius.
I wonder if anyone on here can compare the costs of deep drilling a tube through solid rock as opposed to the more traditional cut & cover subway construction method.
Another factor is the cost of escalators and elevators plus the cost of ventilation and emergecny evcauation of deep stations. Now if the elevators at 168 are out they close they station and police lead customers up the emergency stairs which are dimly lit and full of switchbacks. I dont have figures but I think a deep bored tunnel would be deeper than that. I think 168 is 6-8 stories down, can you imagine walking up 20 or more floors to exit in emergencies. I wouldnt want to work there when it happened.
BTW- all NYCT elevator deep stations have emergency stairways. They are behind marked doors and are sypposed to be locked but many times homeless move into the stairways. Where are the stairways-- look near the elevator shafts and you'll see the doorways.
Looking at the ultra-deep boring for this water tunnel, you wonder why there has not been discussion of building a subway line way down deep; super-long escalator runs could let a station serve a 15 or 20 or more block radius.
For very long-distance trains, maybe, but what's the use of taking a 12-minute journey on a subway if it takes 8 minutes each way to get to/from the platform? That's my main gripe about the London Underground: The deep-tunneled stations are deep enough that it takes more time to get up and down than the ride takes.
And how would it change matters when the water does start flowing? When was the last time you looked down at your friendly subway tracks?
One would imagine that when WT #3 is filled with water, no one would be able to ride a train down there (unless you've been genetically enhanced with lungs?)
You mean the R-142's aren't water-tight?
(I certainly wouldn't want to ride an R-40 down there.)
It's scheduled for completion in 2020, but I heard it's slightly ahead of schedule.
Now why ain't I surprised?
Whoops!
14 St was meant to have been an express stop. 23 St wasn't. But it was done because H&M was right behind the wall. And still is! NYC didn't force them out because it would have cost money to rebuild the tunnels. It was the depression at the time. At the time LaGuardia had to get money from Washington DC to finish what projects were already underway. The IND Second System was never built because the city did not have the money for it. It finished what it built because it was already committed to doing it. But they had to scale back plans for the lines it was building. The A line only went to Rockaway Ave. The E and F went to Roosevelt. Extentions for the the subway that we know now wasn't built after that until after WW2.
23 St wasn't. But it was done because H&M was right behind the wall. And still is!
Which side? North or southbound platform? I wonder why they never made a connection to Path's station.
When you enter the station at 23 St, it is the wall in front of you looking from the turnstiles. And this is from both platforms. Also at 23 St there is an entrance to the PATH train from inside the IND station.
The A line only went to Rockaway Ave. The E and F went to Roosevelt. Extentions for the the subway that we know now wasn't built after that until after WW2
The Queens IND was operating as far as 169th St and the Fulton St IND to Broadway/East NY as late as 1945.
It's quite remarkable how much subway construction there really was in the 1960s. While it's true that most of the sytem was built pre-1940, popular mythology is that practically nothing was built after WW2.
In fact, we got:
1) Connection of the McDonald Ave El to the IND (although, eventually, the connection to the 4th Ave BMT was destroyed)
2) Connection of the Queens Blvd Line to the BMT.
3) Rockaway line and completion of the Fulton Street IND
4) 179th/Hillside Avenue Station
5) The Chrystie Street Project, including 2 new stations (57th/6th, Grand Street), 6th Avenue "dash".
6) IRT Station at 148th/Lenox
7) Archer Avenue extension, inlcuding 3 new stations
8) Finally, the 63rd Street line, including service to Roosevelt Island, with pretty decent provsions for connections to a Second Avenue Subway
In total, not too bad, really.......
7) Archer Avenue extension, inlcuding 3 new stations
8) Finally, the 63rd Street line, including service to Roosevelt Island, with pretty decent provsions for connections to a Second Avenue Subway.
Unless you mean all construction since the 60's, these two lines were done in the late 80's. I guess the 70's is what really messed up any expansion.
The Archer Avenue project started in 1972, though planning had been underway for several years beforehand. The 63rd Street project started in 1969, though, again, it had been planned for several years. The segments OPENED in the late 1980s but had actually been under construction for a good long time.
David
The time frame cited should give SubTalkers a conception that even if construction of the Second Ave. subway began today, it would be a good long time till it opens for service. At my age, almost 49, I am certain that I will not see any more new subway routes opened up in this town. Perhaps I will see the LIRR extension to GCT tho.
I'm 29 and I'm not that optomistic either. Perhaps I'll ride the "stubway" to my grandchild's college graduation.
16 %$#@$ years to build 3 stops from Jamaica Van/Wyck to Parson/Archer, plus a ramp up to the J line. Considering that the entire 8th Ave line in Manhattan was constructed in half that time, I wonder how long it might take to construct a full length 2nd Ave line...
We'll all be dead.
It is a nice list, but you're talking 35 years here. Fulton St. extension of the A was 1956 and therefore work started earlier. Culver extension of the F was the 50s too. Archer Ave. finished in 1988, I believe.
Also, not to be ignored, making 59th and Lex an express station, in the early 60s. Quite a project too.
Culver extension of (what is now) the F actually was nearly complete in 1941, but it didn't open until 1954.
David
Also, not to be ignored, making 59th and Lex an express station, in the early 60s. Quite a project too.
I didn't know this. Bloomie's basement was originally a local stop?
Yup. To ease overcrowding caused by the new 11th St cut allowing access to 59th/Lex by Queens IND riders, the lower platform was built around 1960. Before the rehab, this platform's age was obvious, with the ugly green tiles used in similiar stations of the period (Grant Ave. comes to mind). Prior to this time, 59th St on the IRT was a local only stop.
Which made for one helluva run on a Lexington Ave. express. I hear the Lo-Vs used to smoke that run.
IIRC, the Culver/IND connection was pretty much built before we entered WWII, having construction interrupted when it was almost complete. All the platforms had been extended for 600' trains by then.
The steelwork for the IND ramp was in place, but wasn't tied into the Culver line itself.
Items 2,3, and 4 were completed and operational in the '50s. I remember the subway maps prior to opening had dotted lines to show under construction. The lines after opening had multi-coloured lines to show dual service on Queens Blvd. IND?BMT service. Standards did run on QB.
avid
When the line was being built, express tracks were planned. NYC was going to take over the H&M (now PATH) tracks and use them.
So were the express leads from the IND Herald Square station aligned so they COULD feed into PATH tracks. Now there's an amazing thought: IND to Jersey!
But those tunnels were built for cars that were shorter than the IND cars. For the sake of money (there was a deppression going on) work was put off for another time.
But ... I assumed PATH tunnels (essentially IRT spec) can't handle B division cars 'cause of girth, not station length? Wouldn't they have had to re-engineer all the tunnels? Or were they ONLY going to use the Sixth Avenue portions of the line, perhaps turning Christopher into a terminus?
Probably H&M would have terminated at Christopher St. Then again Hylan probably had ideas about doing away with H&N as well as BRT/BMT and IRT. Hylan wanted to build a modern subway. Cutting edge and state-of-the-art. When that went into service, people would prefer that to the other existing companies and force them out of buusiness.
No. The Sixth Ave express tracks were meant to feed the Houston St. tunnel to Brooklyn and S4th St.
The best they can do now is a huge Layup for inclement weather.
avid
Peggy asked me to post the reminder of Sunday's field trip on the 1 line's Manhattan and Bronx Portions.
IMPORTANT: Due to a G.O. supposedly due to end at 8am (which could run late) we will meet at Park Place Station Instead . Meet at 9am by the oculus mosaic in the mezzanine near the IND Booth.
While we can not enter closed areas, we can peek through black plastic and see the plywood at the bottom of the the ramp to the E platform level. We can also see the dust and grime still worn by Oculus.
Trip will run hot or cold, rain or snow. Planned stops include:
Houston, Christopher, 34,42 Complex (also to be seen is the N? Mezzanine and new mosaics), 50, 66,86,96,125(we will get off and walk under the structure which is not an el!), 168,181,191,Dyckman,207 (we can see 207 yard from the platform),215 (we can see Broadway Bridge from the street. The subway bridge is over the street bridge. ) and 242 where the trip will end.
Cost: One fun pass or unlimited card (you will need at least 3 fares- Entry to system, 125, 215.)
Peggy looks forward to seeing many subtalkers at the trip.
To those unable to attend, e-mail peggy off-site (peggy@nycsubway.org) and details will be sent for a low-cost CD of the trip photos.
On Monday Peggy will be heading down to Atlanta via Amtrak's Crescent. A full report will follow on her return.
Excellent.
What is this GO? I don't see any GO ending at 8am.
Oh, I see. The first Brooklyn 1 reaches Chambers at 8:36, and the 2 is running up Lex. Reaching Chambers from the south before 8:36 will be a real pain. Or are you referring to something else?
The WTC platform is plainly visible from the north end of the A/C platform.
The G.O. involves single tracking using the Brooklyn Bound track. I work nights and as such see many G.O.s and often times they run late and the first train can be delayed. I spoke with Peggy and seh agreed to Park Place sinmce it has an Island Platform which would not matter. I then suggested she include the visit to see Oculus which is in hiding at this time but can be seen through a hole in black plastic.
While the G.O. might be over, moving the start to Park Place will prevent a surprise.
The meeting place is in the Park Place Mezzanine at 9am inside the Fare Control by the transfer to the IND.
Single-tracking on the Brooklyn-bound track? Until 8:36, there is no northbound service at all south of Chambers!
Park Place is fine with me, in any case.
How does the management of the trainservices in NYC Subway work?
Is it the dispatchers in those called “Master Towers” that are in control of the trainsmovements and services during the working day, or do they just take orders from somewhere/someone else, the word “Control Center” is mentioned here and there on this site? And is there some management “on the road/line”?
Would be interesting to know how it’s works in NYC, in compare to my own organization in Stockholm-Sweden.
I’ll read the FAQ on this site, explaining some of the abbreviations of titles being used, but it still leaves many questions unanswered.
/B
I'll let the experts chime in, Dispatchers and Asst. Dispatchers are at terminals and start trains and give them their job name. The Control Center is in overall "control" (hehe) but they can't see where the trains are and talk to the towers mostly and trains. If you can't raise a tower, crews call Control too (Happened once when Dekalb tower screwed up, somehow they didn't hear the train calling but Control did, then Control called the tower and their radio started working hmmm). It's fun listening to the radio when control steps on everyone and then ends up telling a tower to use a phone to call them.
Anyway you also have the roving TSS to contend with too and towers and control calling them. I'll let the experts figure it out for ya
Thank you , much of what you just describe sounds very familiar to my ears J
However in Stockholm we do not have any so called Dispatchers. The trains runs accordingly to a predefined timetable. Any alterations of that timetable and routes, due to various reasons, such as halted trains and so on, are solely the decision of personal at Control Center.
The traincrews ( since the middle 70’s only the T/O due to the transition to OPTO ) can only use the radio to communicate direct with Control Center, even though the towers can listen in on the calls made. Towers and Control Center used to communicate with each other over the phone.
Since the beginning of the 90’s, with the political decisions towards entrepreneurship in public transportation, the former “blind” and “main” Control Center was divided in to three separated Control Centers, one for each branch/line, and then physically placed at the corresponding tower facility. That decision where not very popular among the TW/O’s, who from that point have to live with the fact of having “Control staff” (two persons) sitting right behind them, looking over their shoulders as they performed their duty’s.
Placed among them was also the person who is responsible for announcing delays and similar to the customers through PA-systems, LED-signs on the corresponding branch/line.
On top of that we have five TB (TSS in NYC) on every shift (on night-time only 3) patrolling in cars equipped with the same type of flashing lights and sirens as Police/Ambulance, so they can manage themselves trough heavy traffic, in case of emergency’s or halted services during rushhours.
/B
Master Towers are basically a new "invention". Previously switches in various sections were controlled by wayside towers located at different sections long a route. With new technology developed over the years a lot of these towers are now consolidated into one "Master Tower" which can handle control of switches and signals over long distances.
Example:
The towers at Pelham Bay Park, Parkchester and Hunts Point Avenue were consolidated into the Westchester Master Tower which is located in the Westchester Yard (north of Westchester Avenue station). At 3rd Av/138th St the switches on both ends of the station used to be under the control of the Mott Avenue (149th St/Grand Concourse) but was changed over to control by the Westchester Master Tower.
Mott Avenue Tower still controls the switches at 149th St/Grand Concourse (upper and lower levels) and the switch south of Jackson Avenue.
There are others but this is the only I can give any detail on at the moment.
Anyone else, please chime (and watch the closing doors) in.
They usually keep a body at places where two lines merge or diverge from a single track or there is a GO that takes you from your normal route (if there isn't one already).
Daytimes there are usually extra people around at part time towers like Church on the F.
Some TD are very proactive and give you skips when the rails are messed up or are good at suggesting alternative service (official or not) and others won't scratch their rear without permission from CC.
Moderately interesting puff piece on the year in transit HERE.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mr. Chi'en forgot something that's was crucial to transit in this city pre-9/11. Like the trouble with the R-142/R-142A fleet that temporarily caused a car shortage on a subway line.
Mr Chi'en neglects many things, as I have stated before, I feel that he is in the wrong line of work. Which is why I called it a puff piece.
Peace,
ANDEE
A car shortage? The A Division currently has an excess of cars (for the scheduled service, at least).
Definitely puffy.
"Then tunnels on the 1 and 9 lines were crushed, and all subway service ground to a halt for the first time in history."
Not quite true...
If I recall, the entire system was halted at 11:50 pm on New Year's Eve 1999 (changing to 2000) so that no trains would be running when the calendar changed, in case any Y2K glitches crashed the signal system.
Of course, there were no Y2K glitches in the US...
Anyone else remember this, or was it a rumor?
JR
Not sure about Y2K, but what about April Fools Day, 1980?
Not sure about Y2K, but what about April Fools Day, 1980?
What happened?
JR
TWU 100 went on strike and shut the system down for eleven days.
Ah yes, now I remember. Thanks. Glad they did research before publishing that NY1 article. (insert sarcasm here...)
JR
Yes, the system did shut down - sort of. Trains were stopped in stations, but the system was not evacuated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
what does it look like at the street & station entrance level ??
since i was told this is the least used station ??
.....just curious & interested ... thankz ...!
lol!
Plenty of stores selling commerical cookware on the north side.
Plenty of stores selling lighting fixtures on the south side.
Always busy in daylight hours.
It's nohwere near as bad a neighborhood as it used to be. Some reasons it might still be little used:
- The businesses there are not major employers.
- The residential buildings nearby are all low rise (5 stories).
- The people who do live in the neighborhood will generally not want to use the J/M/Z but are more likely to want the F, the B/D (well, the Grand Street shuttle for now), the 6, or the N/R, all of which are really only a fairly short walk away. The J/M/Z don't go anywhere except to the financial district and very selected parts of Brooklyn and Queens.
- It's the only J/M/Z station in Manhattan that doesn't connect to much else, now subways and only the Bowery bus, which runs on a pitifully poor schedule itself. And the J/M/Z themselves aren't the most heavily traveled subway line themselves, with the vast majority of the traffic being people going to work in the financial district.
I was on the J train over the weekend and the ride spurred a question that I had for quite some time. It has always puzzled me, and I figured the guys at subtalk could help answer it.
Why is Marcy Avenue different from all the other stations on the line. It looks newer, and doesn't have the look that almost every local station on the J (and the side platforms stations on the M) have. Did they have to tear the original station down when they connected the line to the WillyB? I know the line original terminated at the Broadway waterfront, and was thinking that maybe the original station may have had to be demolished to make way for the bridge approaches. Does anyone know why Marcy is different with construction, no fare control under the station, and wasn't built to the same specs as all the other stations.
The station WAS built like the others, but it was rebuilt approximately 20 years ago.
David
So they tore up the fare control area under the station? It still puzzles me because I believe I saw a photo of Marcy from the 60's with rotting wooden platforms, that may have dated back to the 30's or so.
Not sure about the history of the fare controls, but the wood platforms were replaced by concrete ones in the early 1980s -- the station was closed for several months while this happened.
David
The platforms from Hewes to Eastern Pkwy were concrete for 60 years prior.
Concrete platforms in the 1930s and 1940s when no other BMT station had them? I am unsure about that.
All the stations I think were concrete on the M from Fresh Pond to Myrtle and on the J from Hewes to Eastern Pkwy, and from Cypress Hills to 168th Street from the time of the el rebuilding around 1915 or so, with Marcy being the exception, as I just found out today, and of course the old section from Alabama to Cypress Hills.
Marcy Ave, Alabama Ave, Van Siclen Ave, Cleveland St, Norwood Ave, Crescent St and 168th St had wood platforms until the 1980's.
Marcy Ave was the only side platform station with a wood platform at that time.
I'm not sure about this but I think that 168th St still had a wood platform when it was torn down.
All of the other stations that existed at the time of the dual contracts were rebuilt with concrete platforms.
Dual Contracts eliminated a station between Myrtle and Flushing. It was a center platform station known as Park Ave.
You haven't lived until you had the opportunity to stand on the end of Marcy Ave station in the 1940's. The wood platform was only about three feet wide, and you hoped that the railing didn't fall to the street before the train came.
You haven't lived until you had the opportunity to stand on the end of Marcy Ave station in the 1940's. The wood platform was only about three feet wide, and you hoped that the railing didn't fall to the street before the train came.
LOL........................That must have been something!
My mother always insisted that we stand where the front of the train would stop. I was always thankful when we got on the Standards, and off that damn platform.
I think it is the reason I have had a fear of heights all my life.
Yes, the station was quite scary looking. Does anyone know which platform had to be rebuilt after being damaged by fire in the 1950's?
I once had a nightmare about Marcy Ave.--
There were big holes in the rotting wooden platform, and I was holding onto those siderails tight so I wouldn't fall through.....
What's funny is that it was concrete platforms by the time I lived near it...
Go figure :)
Actually, 168th St was always wooden until it was demolished in the late 70's.
I highly doubt even with Dual Contracts rebuilding of the lines in the time period 1913-1918 they installed concrete platforms. Dual contracts construction did NOT employ concrete platforms on the West End, Culver, or Brighton elevated until past the 1940's. Why would it be done on the Eastern Division?
I am going to go thru the stacks of papers and books I have to verify this, but I would bet money that concrete platforms were NOT part of BRT Eastern Division rebuilding.
That's very interesting. I didn't realize that. What about the fare control areas? It just seems all the concrete is about the same age.
I used many of those side platform stations starting in the 1940's, and with the exception of Marcy, they were all concrete, and it sure did not look new.
The stations just seem to be built so sturdy. It's hard to believe that that concrete is not original from circa 1915 on the J and M lines, excluding Marcy, 168th, Alabama to Cres, and Metro. It seems that the wood platforms just wouldn't have went with the sturdy steal. And the fare control areas, it's hard to believe that they weren't always concrete, and if they made the fare control areas concrete, why not the platforms?
Those concrete side platform stations all used to have fare control at both ends of the station too. The TA has completely eliminated fare control at one end of many of the stations.
That was a shame!
I also noticed that with the rebuilding of Hewes, Lorimer, and Flushing they rebuilt and extended the canopies over the stairways of both the in use fare control area and the not in use fare area at those stations. So maybe they intend to one day use them again. However the extra fare control areas on the M at Forest, Central, Knickerbocker, and two abandoned fare areas at Wyckoff have all been completely removed and the stairways removed and cemented over on the platforms.
They are available for emergency exit use only. They can be unlocked by pushing a special button in the booth at the other end. The mezzanine space is now used for electrical rooms, communicatiosn rooms etc.
Marcy is being renovated again at this time. New lights are going in including new end of platform lights--presumably like the other J stations have along with the ADA edge strip and elevators will be added.
Is the ADA edge strip those big yellow tiles with the bumps. I can't remember if the other renovated stations got that or not. That stuff is dangerous I say. I busted my ass right in front of a door of a 4 train at Grand Central. That stuff was wet because they were cleaning the station. I was nice and didn't try to sue the MTA for millions because I was the one running for the train. I'm just glad the C/R didn't close the door on my arm which was partially inside the train.
Shawn.
You win the prize ! Yes, the usually yellow strip with the bumps. As far as stations with them- all current renovations projects are getting these along with some previously done. Some stations such as 57/7th have a slightly different form but this too is a tactile edge as required by the ADA.
I say usually yellow since PATCO uses Orange at the ends of their platforms and I think MARTA has at least one station with white.
Can anyone remember the first station these yellow bumped edges were installed at? I do.
Which one was it?
- Lyle Goldman
Pacific St.
I very much dislike the yellow tactile strip.
I very much like the bumpy black edge with two orange stripes, as at 57/7. It's less slippery and it looks quite classy.
If both meet ADA requirements, why is the yellow version in use now?
I agree the yellow bumpy strip always looks dirty.
I have a picture of a BMT standard train at 121 St on the Jamaica line dated in 1947. The station has concrete platforms, as well as an open windscreen design.
Marcy Ave never had fare control under the station. It wasn't even an express stop until the 1960's. The switches back then were west of the station, now they are east!
I wonder why the rebuild of 1915/16 placed 2 stations (Hewes & Marcy) so close together. Other pre-dual contracts stations were completely removed (Evergreen Ave is the only one I know by name). If I were in charge back then, I'd have rebuilt Marcy Ave, moving it west about a block, and completely eliminated Hewes.
Even THEN there were NIMBYs ... you either work WITH the hood or the hood works against YOU ... politicians once FEARED the voter. No problem today. :)
Marcy Ave. is different because it wasn't rebuilt when the center express track was added around 1915-1920. The Broadway Brooklyn Line and Myrtle Ave Line (between Broadway and Wycoff) originally looked much like the section of the J/Z line between Alabama Ave and Crescent St does today - two tracks with space between them and island platforms at the stations - except at Marcy Ave., where there was a layup track in the center and side platforms (with fare controls at platform level).
When the line was rebuilt c. 1915-20, the stations with center platforms were rebuilt as side platform stations with mezzanines (including the ones along Myrtle Ave, even though a center express track was never built, but only space left for it).
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks, that explains it.
Wow!!!! Thanks for the explanation. I've ALWAYS wondered why there looked like a possible center track existed at one time, but didn't *lol*
I suppose that's the same thing as the rest of the "J" line east of the Alabama-Cresent Street corridor (past the dreaded "S" curve)--at least up to the former end of the line at 111th Street, before the extension to Jamaica Center (I think), or am I wrong on that matter?
I'm not so sure there was never a center track between Central and Wyckoff, If you look closely on the el structure, you can see where ties used to be. I know it was never used in service, but it does look like there was a track there once, even if for a short period of time. On the J line there is no evidence of a trackway ever being there, but the trackway does seem to exist on the M.
On the (J) line east of Eastern Pkwy station and the turnoffs to the (L), you can see girders rising in the middle and going nowhere. There had been a plan to build a raised center track (as in the old Manhattan el's) around 1951, and it was started but never completed.
Bob Sklar
The girders going nowhere west of Alabama Ave have been there a lot longer than 1951,
I think they were constructed during the dual contracts in 1916-17.
This was the provision for the never built Fulton St flyover express tracks and does indeed date to 1916/1917. The riveted structure easily dates the steelwork to this era.
I always wondered what that was at Alabama Avenue. So it never was much more than it is right now. I wonder why they stopped building it.
I thought that raised roadbed was a turning track.
GP-38: The center track was installed on the Myrtle Avenue El between Central Avenue and Wycloff Avenue. It may have been used for layups but never regular serice. It may have been removed somewhere between 1945 and 1955 +/-.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There's a picture on page 36 of Greller and Watson's book, The Brooklyn Elevated, showing the third track "in service" at Knickerbocker Ave. Unfortunately, no date is given.
What kind of track layout was there from B'way-Myrtle to Bridge-Jay?
Two track elevated, island platforms. Here's a link to a picture of the newspaper on closing day ...
newspaper picture
For a several years the sections of Jamaica Ave. and Myrtle Ave had these shorty light poles long after the "Els" were removed. There gone too!
avid
Let's take some of that Broadway Junction steel and rebuild the Navy Street station! Teach THEM to mess with a perfectly good el. :)
Myrtle Ave was hardly "perfectly good". It was in bad shape and too lightly built to operate modern cars.
Did the trick though, just like the 3rd avenue el that was razed for the SAME excuses ... now GRANTED, on the Myrtle, one pier got kocked loose by a traffic accident towards the end ... it COULD have been fixed. Yum ... busses for everybody ... woohoo! Bx55 was the same sad joke. BOTH els though, when it came to the torch, farted in the general direction of the contractors ...
Both elevated lines would have needed massive rehabilitation and structural work if they were to retained much longer than they were. The R12's were to damn heavy for the lower 3rd. Ave line, and nothing in the B division fleet outside the proposed R39 would have been able to replace the Q cars.
In my opinion, the most intersting part of the old Myrtle Ave. El was the arch truss bridge across Flatbush Ave. Extension, obviously added when the road was built as an approach to the Manhattan Bridge so that traffic wouldn't have to snake around the El's support columns.
-- Ed Sachs
2 tracks, almost identical to Fulton St prior to it's rebuilding. This is Grand Ave, probably in the 1950's. Can I assume from the steelwork in this picture that this is the place where the Lexington Ave and Myrtle Ave els joined?
I think the picture is from the 1940's or earlier, Chris, and it is the old Grand Ave - Myrtle Ave interlocking. The picture was taken from the old walkover between the two Grand Ave platforms on the Myrt.
I spent some time on the walkover as a kid in the 1940's, watching trains, but couldn't afford a camera.
The three platforms and the tower were razed after the Last Lex on Oct 13th 1950.
Thanks for the picture, it brought back a lot of memories!
I don't think so. The picture that I've seen of the Myrtle-Grand crossing has the Myrtle El platform at Grand Ave to be east of the turn-off to the Lexington El. Trains doing to the Lexingion El never made a stop at that stop. There was no platform to stop at! Before Aqueduct Race Track, Myrtle Ave on the Lexington El was the only station with service just on one side.
I'd say that in the picture, based on the shadows, the view is looking west.
I'd say that in the picture, based on the shadows, the view is looking west.
The "Metropolitan Ave" destination sign on the lead car clinches that hypothesis.
The Myrtle Avenue el ran geographically northeast to southwest. Lex trains turned off just southwest of this station.
The picture was taken looking southwest toward Bridge-Jay St.
You can see one of the diverging tracks for the Lex under the second car of the train. The other track is concealed by the train itself
The Lex had its own side platform, called Myrtle Ave, for Bridge-Jay St bound trains. This platform (not shown) was connected to the Grand Ave platform shown on the left side of the picture. The two platforms formed a letter L, with the stationhouse at the point.
111th St bound Lex trains were the trains that had no platform to stop at here.
There is a picture on the inside of the front cover of Greller's Brooklyn Elevated , taken from the other direction, that shows this same junction.
Boy, this has me really confused. The steelwork in this picture has a track turning off and going right through the platform, something impossible unless the station was rebuilt after the Lex track's were removed.
That's probably because you're looking at the turnoff to the Old Main Line. That turnoff goes right into a building.
-Stef
Thanks for the clarification.
The 4 story yellow brick building on the NE corner of Myrt and Grand wasn't built until after the Old Main was torn down. But the wood building next door until about 10 years ago still had the 45 degree cut in the second story to clear the el structure - gone then about 90 years. Those two lines were only about 6 feet apart originally!
I can also see the building where I met my other half - midway between Hall and Ryerson. You Pratt guys would remember Dottie's Romanian Gardens.
Chris, the Lex is very definately still in operation in your picture. All three station platforms and the tower were removed when the Lex ceased operation. There was no longer a Myrt station at Grand Ave.
Incidentally the two side platforms on Myrt were not exactly opposite each other. The steelwork you see in the lower right hand corner of your picture is exactly as Stef says. That is probably why the two side platforms aren't exactly across from each other.
There was. If you look on page 59 of James Greller's "Cars of the BMT" book, in the lower left hand corner, it shows a picture of Knickerbocker Ave in the 1940's, a BMT standard on one track, and a gate car set on the other. The remains of an express track are quite visable, though it's had it's rails removed (much like the lower express track along 3rd Ave. in the Bronx during the 1960's and early 70's). So one did exist for a time.
Pretty cool photo. That proves it was there for a while.
The center tracks between Crescent and Cypress Hills, and at 111th St have existed since the line was built. They were never an express track, but were always a layup track.
Van Siclen Ave used to be a side platform station, and there was a side platform station there. It also had a center track for layup purposes.
The bumper for this long gone track at Van Siclen still exists.
It was rebuilt from an older wooden platformed station in 1979. Marcy Ave, as it was before 1979, looked as if it was an original Broadway elevated station, merely extended to accomodate longer train during the rebuild of 1916.
Test failed
Error 513: Transmission feiled for the following message: "Test failed".
"Transmission feiled"?
Where's the proff?
Works just like an R142!
Here we go:
Tanx
Howard,
Where did you find the "Bluegrab" Gif? I'm still laughing!!
JR
From here: www.mysmiles.com
1.A
2.C
3.D
4.B
5.E
6.C
7.C
8.A
9.B
10. D
So, how'd I do?
grand-central%test
FALSE
grand-central%
Hmm, I wonder who wrote that little proggy that somehow found its way onto our /usr/bin
excellent ! keep up the good work !!
lol !!
Is that the new, improved Florida election ballot ?
Bill "Newkirk"
...was the announcement being made on the northbound 1 I boarded today at 8:15 a.m. at Atlantic Avenue.
Such honest announcements are refreshing.
If John Belushi were still alive, he could do a "Samurai" sketch as Samurai conductor. With a whoosh of his sword, he could neatly cut all subway riders into 3 (IRT) or 4 (BMT/IND) pieces, and then announce "Please use all doors when leaving the train"!
(LOL)
Bob Sklar
You could also have a Schwartzeneggeroid type waiting around to chuck some passenger battering-ram-style through a door that won't open.
"You vill use the vuns that don't vork, either. And you vill like it!"
They could also toss passengers off the express between the studs onto the platform at local stops as it goes by. It would be called an "express stop" or a "nonstop stop."
In fact, all trains should be converted to expresses, regardless of the tracks they use. Would make the system much more efficient, though you'd need an Ah-nold on every car.
I can see the TA ads: "Stop nonstop and speed your ride!"
The only problem with that is you can only allow pax to disembark and cannot pick up anyone at the local stops.
It was done in "Soylent Green" ... simply add a big scoop up front and dump 'em into the second car. :)
Trains used to pick up and drop off the US mail nonstop; with enough padding/webbing/netting it should be possible to do with pax as well. Have them sit in a chair that accelerates and then catapaults them into the train.
To which I sometimes want to reply: "I'd be happy to walk down to an emptier car if I didn't think you were going to slam the doors shut while I was doing it."
I would say this is an objectionable habit of about 10% of C/Rs. The rest are very decent but the occasional outlier makes getting into a crowded train something of a crap shoot.
Just one thing to bear in mind - conductors are obligated by management to play "beat the clock" while out on the road. If the train's late, these boys and girls get a whipping. Their motivation is NOT to abuse customers, their motivation is not getting yelled at at the other end for holding up the railroad so folks can sashay onto a car. Perhaps "step lively" should be put back into the announcements.
Make more built in time at the end so we have time to run down to the other ends of the train. I'm fast so I can often do it and dodge the crowds but not everyone can make it easily.
The shuffle earns a fat belly that gets stuck. CI Peter
If RTO is willing, I'm sure the folks in the middle would be happy to. But in many cases, the train behind isn't all that far away - more than enough time to pre-position one's self at the designated car marker. All the crews we met along the way found us waiting for them at their spot. :)
But for those who have to ride a train from end to end and then back, "tick tock" is a vivid reality ... hold one train, and you suddenyl find that you're holding many others as well ... and usually in the dark.
I am not so picky at rush hours but evenings and weekends, to me it makes sense to wait and just let people pile on than close up. The time is easier to make up plus the next train can be 10 minutes away sometimes and there are fewer alternate ways of going.
On those headways, generally the odds of landing on the platform as the train is there are relatively slim. But the schedule is just as tight off peak and you still get yelled at if you're late. In the greater scheme of things, 10 minutes isn't quite forever either.
There ARE lingerers out there though - if you let the doors sit open for five minutes at a platform, there are folks who would STILL be taking their sweet time. Don't mind me though - for every customer who has horror stories to tell about having the doors close in their face, there's easily two conductors who got yelled at for being late. Gotta look at both sides of the equation and there's a lot of folks who don't. If it was entirely up to our discretion, we'd open up once or twice. In reality you can't or the train would never make it to the other end.
Crews get it form the T/D more if you run late off peak hours. A TSS in school car gave my class the best advise for the road.
Take some
Leave some
Drag none
Heh. I like that one. I know THAT won't go over big with folks who don't understand what it's like to be in the refrigerator carton all day but I have YET to meet a conductor who doesn't wish that they DID have the time to let someone on when it's time to go ... especially that cute one at the bottom of the stairs. Grrrrrow-wow! :)
I know! When I was posting which is on the job training you go on a line and ride with a Conductor and they show you the job.
Well I was on the No.6 Line with a Redbird for my first half trip ever on the No.6 Line. It was around 9AM at 77 Street this hot young lady comes down the steps after I close down. I couldn't help it I reopened for her. Now my trainer was asking me why I did it but before I could answer she came to my cab to thank me with a kiss. A good kiss at that. Before I could get her Number she just said you know where I get on see you tomorrow and she sat down in another car.
My trainer was lost for words after seeing that. If you are wondering since we are Talking about AM's and the No.6 Line where PBD SR works did he the Trainer tell him?
Yes it was the topic of the Lunch break because Me, Trainer and dad with others had lunch together.
Heh. Cabs were MEANT to be "blessed" ... AH, for the days before Herpes and AIDS ... but I can't talk about it lest I corrupt your wittle mind. Once upon a time, in a less groovy world, JUST THE MONKEYSUIT was enough to get yer yayas if you could persuade them to meet you at the end of your run. :)
hey, Nancy and I met ya ... it could STILL happen. Heh.
Well that only happened to me once. Maybe it could happen again but with Redbirds going out I don't think so.
Strange TA logic at play there - big cab, lock yourself inside, little cab, open it up for the world. STILL can't fathom that one. :)
They can make time. Anyone who cares to make that train off peak will get on where they see a door.
Sometimes it is the truth that you should use all working doors when entering or exiting the train. I have on occasion been in a car with a non-working door. It not only has happened to me on the subway, it has also happened to me on Metro-North.
#3 West End Jeff
I used to work with a conductor who always had a knack for announcements.
1) "This train is equipped with 32 pairs of doors. Not just the one at the front."
2) To passengers holding doors asking questions: "Ladies and gentlemen, if you aren't sure if this is your train or not, it probably isn't. Please let the doors go."
3) Sitting in the cold at Broad Channel: "service is closed because the bridge is opened."
4) "You can get her phone number on the platform, or on the train, but NOT BOTH!"
Honesty will get us nowhere.
Do T/Os have any say in what the C/R says or does the T/O have to keep his mouth shut?
I've heard a conductor on an R46 E s/b at Lex Av. - 53rd St. and during PM rush, (the station's like a rampage) the conductor noted "Please use all available doors", as I was standing at the platform and saw a myriad of people stuck to get in one set of doors while the other three sets were less crowded.
I've heard it on other trains too. I think conductors do care about effective service.
why do your ears blow out when... you enter a undergound under the water tube ?? etc..
U know what i mean !!
lol !!
PRESSURE, PURE PRESSURE
No, it's cuz of PEER pressure...
When it's underwater, it's because of the pier pressure.
Rim shot!
It usually happens when the train passes an emergency exit in a river tunnel. I used to keep my mouth open when riding through the 14th St. tunnel when our train approached one of those exits. It helped.
You mean like in an aeroplane?
"The gum is for your ears."
The TA should distribute gum on N/W trains at Lex and QbP.
Pressure, too much pressure causes this:
lol !
That's when Felix would try to clear out his ears:
HMAAHH!! FMAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Then he'd sprain his throat.
Salaam of the Redbirds,
The short answer is that it is due to a change in pressure within the car.
I'm not a doctor, but from what I gather, air cavities (like your sinuses) need to adjust to this change. The passageways aren't very large, meaning that they often need to be cleared. Otherwise you will feel force being exerted one way or the other by the pressure differential. You can experience this sensation in an airplane or driving up/down a mountain.
Now for the long answer.
Many out there will probably say that this pressure differential within a subway car is caused by the depth of the tunnel. This is not entirely correct. Both the elevation and velocity of the car play a role in the increase in pressure.
The role of elevation is simple. The deeper down you go, the greater the pressure, as you literally have that much more air resting on top of you. But 100 or so feet isn't enough to cause that much of a pressure change alone.
The answer is velocity. Yes, velocity. As the subway travels through the tube, air is forced from in front of the car to around the sides. The clearance is not that great compared to the effective diameter of the tunnel. The air must speed up (relative to the train) and/or be compressed to pass. It will do both. The subways are not airtight, so this pressure increase on the exterior of the car is transmitted inside. You will note this by hearing an unusual whistling noise through the windows and doors.
So why does this happen only in the river tunnels? Well, there aren't any air vents to equilibrate the pressure changes that set up. So deep in the tunnel, you get a significant relative velocity and pressure change around the exterior of the car.
I hope this answers your question,
MATT-2AV
yes it does ! thankz !!
Notice if you swallow you can blow your ears back ... lol !!
thankz again ....( smile )
For the same reason LIRR used to want conductors to lock the toilets on trains when heading toward NY City. When the train hit the tunnel, it was like a piston in a cylinder....and would compress the air. A not so tight "gasket" would allow the air to go wherever there was not a seal.
A former neighbor who was a LIRR engineer was running an MP54 MU into Penn Station, and hitting about 55-60 mph going down the ramp into the tunnels when he heard a loud scream. He thought he hit someone. Plugged the train, they got out and inspected underneath. Nothing. Then the toilet door behind his cab opened, and a woman covered from head to toe with poop came out crying.....
Seems the tunnel air forced her donation to the tracks back up where it came from...sort of. All because the conductor didn't lock the door.
OMG !! ..........woah man ......terrible !!
Can we have a function whereby the poster can combine and split threads? See for the Subway surfer thread, we can combine the Train Dude and churchbob threads. For the other threads that drift off topic, we can have a split thread function at the time of posting a reply and then we can have simply a link in the first message of the new thread that takes you back to the old thread, but when the user choose first message in thread it won't trace back to the first message of the thread of the original topic
I can tell you right now, it would either A) never be used or B) used so much almost everything is the start of a thread. Do you think I trust Subtalk posters to use it responsibly? Got better things to do with my time, sorry.
Waoh, sorry. Just a joke, didn't mean to relegate you to more programming. Are people that irresponsible? Are you pissed off with the board?
Lexcie
Now, why would he be pissed off?
If I'm not mistaken - I don't know precisely how Subtalk works on the server, but I have written similar programs in the past - slice and splice functions for remote users would be rather difficult to program, and their use would definately tax the server's performance.
-Robert King
One thing that I'd really like is an elimination of the 15-minute refresh thing, or an option for it. Sometimes it takes longer than 15 minutes to look for new material by searching for "NEW" in the threaded view.
Mark
>>> One thing that I'd really like is an elimination of the 15-minute refresh thing, <<<
I'll second that. It cvan be annoying at times.
Tom
If you want to see new material, turn on the "chronological" option.
Nice, 60 minutes now. If we can't make it through in that time, then something's seriously wrong.
Thanks, Dave.
Mark
we can combine the Train Dude and churchbob threads.
Letchie: That's chuchubob, as in choo choo bob. I wouldn't want anybody to get a negative impression of church by reading my posts. I understand how easily it can be misread, though.
"That's chuchubob, as in choo choo bob. I wouldn't want anybody to get a negative impression of church by reading my posts. I understand how easily it can be misread, though"
Good one
Oops!!! Sorry, I keep maquing that mistaque. Well my spellingque is terriblue.
Lexice
Yeah, yeah, I know ... it's in/around/near Selkirk, NY.
The Q is actually: When I drive up the Thruway toward Albany, then turn right onto the extension that leads to the Mass Pike, I cross over a light-blue 4-lane bridge. Next to it is a very rusty rail bridge.
Is that the Selkirk Bridge, aka southernmost point where a train can cross the Hudson?
The Selkirk bridge locates at MP 125 (90% certain) on the New York side of the Hudson River and is used to connect with the tracks on the New Jersey side of the river.
I don't remember the name of the divisions. I think the Jersey side is called the River division and the New York side is the Hudson division.
I'm sure I'll be corrected before the night is over.
Michael
River Line and Hudson Line. The Boston Line crosses the bridge b4 turning into the Selkirk Branch.
What you describe is definitely the south-most rail bridge over the Hudson.
What you describe is definitely the south-most rail bridge over the Hudson.
Well, southernmost ACTIVE rail bridge. The one in Poughkeepsie is still there and just as impressive, though I believe the approach ROWs on the west side (Highland, NY) have been torn up and/or built over.
So IS the one I described the "Selkirk Bridge"?
Well, southernmost ACTIVE rail bridge. The one in Poughkeepsie is still there and just as impressive, though I believe the approach ROWs on the west side (Highland, NY) have been torn up and/or built over.
The approaches on both sides have been significantly encroached and/or destroyed at this point, unfortunately.
A book chronicling the history of the Poughkeepsie bridge, by Pulitzer Prize winning author Carleton Mabee, has just been published by Purple Mountain Press. Unfortunately, their website isn't up to date enough to even list it. It runs $39.00 for an autographed hardcover (if they still have any left - the hardbound was a limited edition of 500, of which my copy is #440) and $24.00 for a non-autographed paperback. Someone is listing the book on eBay but the bidding starts at full list and the shipping charge is higher than ordering directly from Purple Mountain. Their toll-free order number is (800) 325-2665 or, for those who would rather pay by check, you can mail it in... call them first for the total including shipping and their address (in Fleischmanns, NY).
The book, by the way, is quite interesting. It is NOT an engineering history but rather a history of the people who planned, built, worked on, maintained, and ultimately those who are trying to save the bridge and open it as a walkway. Lots of photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Somehow I feel obligated ... yes indeedy ... that's the one and since the Poughkeepsie bridge is no more for traction, the one here is indeed the "southern cross" ... plenty of others though as you work your way up the Hudson creek from there.
Should we tell folks from the city just how NARROW the Hudson is up here? Nah. But the good news is you can walk across it all winter long and not get winded. :)
Still looks like a real river to me on the map. 1000' of actual water and a mile long bridge to cross what looks like undeveloped marsh land. Maybe not quite a match for the East River but considerably more than the Harlem River.
Yep ... but standing at 72nd street for comparison, the Hudson's a puddle up here. And when you get up towards Watervliet and the locks of the Erie, it REALLY gets narrow. When I have folks up from the city and they spot it for the first time, they are amazed. :)
Never mind 72nd St. Try Tappan Zee...
Feh. You can LEAP it here. :)
Sounds like the north end of the Jordan River -- except no rail bridge..
The reason for the length of the Selkirk rail bridge is because on the east side of the Hudson, it's at a pretty decent altitude coming off the Berkshires. But only a small portion of it is actually over the Hudson itself - it's about 400 feet south of the Thruway bridge to the Berkshire spur at about the same height. Years ago in the Conrail days when I was permitted cab rides with buddies, it was a scary railroad bridge. Rickety and shaky ... it's a LONG way down to the river below ...
What was wrong with the redbird I say at Grand Central yesterday going south at 4:30pm?
What would lead one to assume that it was "broken?"
A #5 train is supposed to deadhead southbound, leaving E. 180th Street light at 4:18 PM and arriving at Bowling Green at 5:02 PM, and leave Bowling Green going northbound at 5:17 PM. Perhaps that was the train "buildmorelines" saw heading southward, though 4:30 is a bit early to be seeing this deadhead move assuming the train left E. 180th Street on time and wasn't "pushed out" early.
David
i just came from railfanning. the most interesting thing is i went to bedford park blvd on the 4, to take pics of trains in the yard. the most interesting thing is, i caught the same trains everytime!
for example i took 3558 as a E to lex/53rd. took 7511 R142A 6 uptown one stop to 59 where i catch 1610 as a 4 to woodlawn. I get off 1610 at bedford park blvd to shoot pics and all of the yard. then i catch 1610 again back down to 125! then at 125 7520 pulls in and i get on the tailcar and the tailcar is.... u guessed it 7511! then i decided to ride the E downtown to my bros job! guess what E pulled in as the headcar? 3558! whoa! what a day! then i take the E back uptown and catch a F up hillside to take pics of the special E signs saying E to 179. they betta make those Es express soon
LOL. Railfanning IS great! I did some today after work. MUST TAKE PICS OF ATLANTIC AVENUE AND ENY ON THE L BEFORE IT'S TOTALLY CHANGED!
I thought the Hillside Es were express all the way.
I was on a 1 train a week ago, last Thursday evening, that ran through a yard in passenger service.
It was a southbound train. Just south of 145, the mainline track didn't exist -- I assume it had been removed temporarily for track work. The signal displayed red-over-red-over-yellow -- i.e., call-on (this, incidentally, is the same signal I saw on the SB J approaching the Canal dead-end -- I had misremembered). The 1 train switched to the first track to the right (west), keyed by a few AK (red) signals, and rejoined the mainline just north of 137. Northbound trains were operating normally.
If I am not mistaken, only the two mainline tracks, and perhaps the one between them, are considered revenue trackage. A few months ago, I was informed, in no uncertain terms, that the general public is simply not allowed to be on a train in a yard. When Manhattan-bound E and F trains operated through Jamaica Yard, passengers had to use a slow shuttle bus from Van Wyck to 71-Continental. Why weren't we subjected to the same routine last week at 145, with shuttle bus service to 137? Or is 137th Street Yard considered revenue trackage?
A few months ago, I was informed, in no uncertain terms, that the general public is simply not allowed to be on a train in a yard.
on SEPTA, pax regularly ride thru the yards. Maybe this is an NYCTA rule. on MBTA, disabled pax ride thru the yards, because they don't have facility to board pax at Park St Green Line for westbound pax, so they take the disabled person, put them on a train, turn the train round in the underground yard/loop thing and then make the train face west.
lexcie
The T is much more lax about this, especially on the Green Line. If you're a rail fan and want to ride around one of the end-of-line loops such as Government Center, Park Street, or Lechmere, all you have to do is ask. Your wish will generally be granted.
SEPTA- At the 69th Street terminal on the Market Street Line I was aloud to ride the train on the loop through part of the yard.
Sorry, I think it's reasonable to assume on this board that, unless stated otherwise, the conversation is about the New York City subway system. Notice the domain name. Of course I'm discussing an NYCT rule. What do you expect?
Frankly, I wouldn't mind if posts that have no connection to NYC-area transit or other urban transit systems were directed to another board. This is SubTalk, not some generic TrainTalk.
I beg to differ Sir, please read the message at the top of http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi which clearly states "This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only"
It is great to compare NYC system to other subway systems IMHO.
Yes, rail transit. Amtrak is not generally considered transit, and many of us here don't care to hear random obscure complaints about Amtrak (and, no, it wasn't thread drift).
Of course, I'm not in charge here; I'm just giving my opinion.
But getting back to my earlier post -- is it not reasonable to assume, unless there is some indication to the contrary, that a post on this board is about the NYC subway and not some other system?
Maybe he thought that you thought that you had been told that there was a federal law or regulation on the subject, rather than a particular system's operating rule.
That is NOT a yard it's a siding with an inflated resume.
AHA! That says alot. It's quite a short stretch to travel, so it may be an exception to the rules of mainline trackage. It makes me wonder if the TSQ spur has been used for odd ball movements when there is a blockage on either of the two express tracks.
I know that the yard lead at the East is used for passenger movement, as I have been through it one time or another.
-Stef
"A Lead" is listed as being the only yard trackage certified for revenue service.
Normally, if the B'way IRT express tracks are blocked, trains get re-routed via the local track.
Alright, but there are some interesting moves at times. Case and point: The Collector (Revenue), is held on the northbound local track between 34th-42nd Sts. The train behind it, an R-142 #2, gets a lineup for the express track from 34th Sts. Immediately before 42nd St, the train takes a lineup back to the local track. It's such a short move, I didn't think that the Collector could be held in such a way that other trains could get around it.
72nd St? Well that's a different story.... Collectors usually sit and wait.
-Stef
Two car long collector sitting behind a homeball that can hold ten cars, while the road runs around it - no problem. Infinitely preferable to holding the road while the Collector does its thing.
What/where is "A Lead"?
Is the crossover from the South Ferry outer loop to Bowling Green revenue trackage? What about the crossover from Bowling Green to the outer loop?
Go to the track maps; find the section of the Bronx that includes E.180 St. Just south of Bronx Park East, you will see A Lead (aka 'the scenic route' and 'the back door') split off 2 Track and then rejoin it right before E. 180 station. The move through here is usually made for one of three reasons:
1.- when a southbound 2 and southbound 5 are trying to arrive at the same time
2.- on the midnights when a shuttle is arriving
3.- during GOs where the 5 is single-tracking on the southbound track.
Both loop crossovers are (were?) mainline, hence, revenue trackage. Otherwise they could never pull off the '2 loops the Ferry to the Lex, then goes to Brooklyn' move without emptying the train at Chambers St.
Very interesting. How often is A Lead used in the typical morning rush hour? (Is it ever used middays, even though the 5 will have to switch back to the local once past E180? The afternoon rush is obviously out.)
As for South Ferry, what you say makes sense, but then I wonder why, when the equivalent to this weekend's GO ran (4 split, 5 SB via 2 to Chambers and through the loop), most crews ejected their passengers at Chambers rather than allowing them to remain on to Bowling Green (and beyond -- the quickest route from Dyre to, say, Brooklyn Bridge would have been a 5 through the loop rather than a double transfer).
What about the inner loop proper?
Both loop crossovers are (were?) mainline, hence, revenue trackage.
So what you're saying is that previous revenue tracks allow passengers on? If that's so then why do 6 trains force everyone to get off the train at Brooklyn Bridge?
Because the Mayor insisted on it to prevent a bomb from being carried on the train as it went through the loop. (I hope that someone checks the train for unattended packages before it leaves BB.)
As of 2 years ago (if I recall correctly) passengers were allowed to ride the City Hall loop. A bulletin was issued regarding this matter.
This has been discussed here extensively. From what I've read of previous threads on the subject, one cannot rely on anything more than a few months old on this subject.
That's how the TA works, once you get used to something change it.
There is a new Mayor in NYC. Is he paranoid about attended bombs in the City Hall IRT station?
Didn't say that at all - used 'were' because at this time they are out of service. For opinions on BB Loop, go look in the Archives.
Alex wasn't referring to the inner loop itself -- he was referring to the crossovers to and from the outer loop. (The outer loop is/was the South Ferry station. It was in revenue service until 9/11.)
The City Hall loop has gone back and forth a few times in the past few years. My experience is that crews don't have time to check the entire train for lingering passengers. If you're in the last car, chances are nothing will happen, although you probably risk a ticket.
If you ask the conductor nicely he'l llet you ride it. I rode it many a time and they never declined.
I think that depends on the latest bulletin issued on the matter. Back when the loop was unquestionably revenue trackage, the first two T/O's asked me to leave the train and only the third allowed me to remain. (Now I just don't ask -- although if someone asks me to leave, of course I do.)
Does TA policy make a distinction? Are trains often rerouted through the yard (siding) in question?
You mentioned it had AK's. That uts the level of signalling way beyond a yard.
And how would I know that? With this one exception, I've never been in a yard -- remember?
Yards typically have no signals at all, I take it, except at switches?
And bumper blocks plus a few stop signs at various places.
There are a few exceptions like the entrance and on loops tracks. Almost everything is a homeball. AK and yard don't mix.
And you should know you are a train buff and you won't let this topic go.
No you can't go to Jamaica yard go to bed, no supper.
There are many sidings that are certified for passenger service. One of the most connonly used spurs in the one on CPW at 72nd St. Often in the AM a north-bound D wil be brought in on the local if an A is approaching on the express. The D will go up the local and X over to the express north of 72nd St. through that spur. Customers ride it without problem.
I would have expected a distinction between sidings that function as parts of crossovers (the one north of 72 on the SB 1/2/3 is pressed into use often) and sidings that only connect from one track back to itself. Guess not.
But you've answered another question of mind -- whether B's and D's will sometimes use the wrong track at 59 (to avoid a stopped A or C) and make corrective action afterwards.
"But you've answered another question of mind -- whether B's and D's will sometimes use the wrong track at 59 (to avoid a stopped A or C) and make corrective action afterwards. "
I've seen that move made many times but it's favored by only a few managers. Most favor running the D express up the local track to 135th St.
There are other times when those tracks are used in revenue service. The one between Ct. Square and 21st. onthe G is used often during G.O.s Most of the IND 'sidings' (the one at 72nd St. is called "The Spur") have a Wye at either end so you can X between north and southbound tracks or go north to north (or south to south) if the need arises.
What about southbound? If an A is sitting on the express track, might a following D switch to the local track? Or how about a B in either direction? In all those cases, using the siding is necessary (to avoid holding the train before the station, that is).
Is there a distinction between a spur and a siding? The one at 72 IRT is only useful now to switch between local and express tracks (and, I suppose, to bypass some sort of temporary defect on either through track, or to allow track work there to take place); IRT trains have grown considerably since that spur was installed (although they're still as thin as ever!).
The move can be made southbound as well but with less of a purpose. The only time it becomes useful is if there is a delay at 59th st. and the switches north of 59th are blocked.
Occasionally, during G.O.s, the spur tracks between 125th St and 145th St are also used for revenue service. 5 track and 6 track @ 135th St. are roughly 3-4 trainlengths long. As with other IND spurs, you can go from express to local, local to express, local to local or express to express, in either the northbound or southbound direction.
My mistake. I had (mis)placed (in my mind) the sidings in question between 59 and 72, and had figured, based on this thread, that they served as local-express crossovers. I just looked at the track map and I see that there are dedicated crossovers just north of 59 in addition to the sidings between 72 and 81.
So let me see if I have this right: If a NB D arrives at 59 at the same time as a NB A, the D is (sometimes) sent to the local track. It proceeds to stop at 81 (to let the A get by) and then switches through the siding to the express track. Am I close?
Very close. Except that the D would switch from the local track north of 72nd St. into the spur and emerge on the express track south of 81st St. Which train would go first would depend on which was running late(r).
Sorry, typo on my part. The D would stop at 72, not 81 (unless it was decided to send the D first).
BTW, I do owe you a word of congratulations on your fleet. Although, as you know, I don't find the R-68 the most pleasant of the TA's cars, they are by all measures reliable, and that's what really counts.
Except for the IC's.
Was it the incident with the moron on the Q that got you yelled at for BO IC's.
I don't believe I said I was yelled at. If I did, it was not meant literally. In reality, the D line Supt. raised the issue of inoperative ICs.
You might have said something like 'called on the carpet' (where does that come from, royalty?)
Not Royalty! I would suggest that it came from the fact that the 'boss's office might have been carpeted.
Wuh-oh ... carpeteria duty ... I know that myself. Well, if'n you need a pup-tent and can shovel snoo, we'll put ya up. :)
It would largely depend on whether the track was certified for passenger use or not. Some siding tracks are certified for revenue service. The middle track at Court Square is one of them. In the previous thread that you referred to, we were specifically speaking of track 69/26 in Jamaica yard only.
What would lead some tracks to be certified and others not? I believe you mentioned signal protection. This particular yard track had a few AK's but no conventional three-aspect signals. Does that qualify as signal protection? How much (roughly) would it cost to implement a series of AK's on track 69/26 in Jamaica Yard?
The whole security in the yard is based on permission to move, AK's defeat this.
I don't think speculation about cost of signalling the Jamaica yard Loop track is relavent here. The utility it would provide would not make for a wise investment (Although I know at least two here who would disagree). If you look at the Jamaica yard track layout, going north every train would have to cross the entire plant twice, once in and once out. This would severely limit the number of trains that could loop the yard. (And no, you can't run cars backwards around the loop because of the car wash machinery.)
So you got a chance to go over the derailer.
Please elaborate!
Ok the storage tracks at 137 Street have derailers before the Switch on the 137 Street side. Thats in case a lay up hits the home signal for whatever reason OR is layed up with lack of handbrakes and rolls it will derail before hitting the main line.
The only derailers I have seen on active tracks are mechanically connected to the associated track switch so that trains can pass the derailer whenever the switch is set for movement to/from that track and not otherwise.
Plain and simple TA makes the rules so they can change the rules when it needs too.
Since this G.O. is supposed to go to March would you like shuttle bus service for 3 months 24/7?
Do you think the TA's answer to that question was influenced by the neighborhood?
No. More like money and convenience.
Cool! Is it in effect at all times? I haven't been back there since that night; I wouldn't mind going for another ride through the yard.
About 1990 or so, the A line ran a General Order in which Southbound A trains ran with passengers into 12 track, Pitkin Yard, reversed on 7 lead to K1 track, re-entering the main south of Grant Avenue. There was also a D line G.O. in which D trains avoiding the Manhattan Bridge trudged through Chrystie Street to relay on the Willy B, and traveled south to Dekalb through the Montegue Street Tubes, just to keep the Brighton Line moving. Nowadays, the TA seems obsessed with buses, probably charges them to Capital and doesn't make these strange relays anymore.
A shame, no?
Did the D use 60-foot cars for that GO? IINM, at least today, 75-foot cars are not allowed north of Broad, although I don't think the problematic curves and clearances start until the bridge itself if not beyond.
I'd say the most similar GO to these in use nowadays is the 2 from Brooklyn via Joralemon, then backing down the East Side, going through the South Ferry loop, and continuing up the West Side. We'll have to wait a few months before that one can be done again; hopefully we'll still have railfan windows at the time.
I'm sure R68s were issued to the Concourse line at that time. R68s can relay on the bridge. Many N trains have taken wrong lineups in the Montegue Tubes, although I'm not sure if they can take the sharp switches North of Chambers Street. Bringing an R46 through Chrystie Street has been done already, I recall there was a fantrip so it isn't impossible. I wouldn't run one North and Southbound on the bridge at the same time though.
Today, after work, my train buff friend and I went to check out the progress on the Canarsie line at Atlantic Avenue. Interesting. After leaving Atlantic Manhattan bound, a train takes a violent switch to the right, goes up the ramp of the former K2 Fulton El track, and then swings into ENY. Also, they built a diamond crossover outside ENY to relay trains. The ramp to the J line going Manhattan bound has been temporarily severed, and K2 now goes THROUGH it. Yes, THROUGH it. Is the ramp they are using part of the original K2 ramp that lead to the Fulton El? Was the ramp in good enough shape that they were just able to lay track on it? Also, did the transistion to this new configuration take place over one weekend? It had to in order to keep service. The switch outside Atlantic on the Manhattan bound is wonderfully harsh! :) I hear they are going to rebuild the connection to the J line, but now that they can relay trains outside ENY on the upper level, they may wimp out.
Funny you should mention the Canarsie Line. I was shooting video on the line on Friday (in preparation for a BVE route). I had mentioned on the recording that the alignment of the tracks would follow what it said in P.D.'s Tracks book (the most recent version I have is 2.4). I shot mostly along the ramp where the line ran, then panned over to where P2 crosses J2A (the ramp to the Jamaica Line), showing J2A.
I also shot the R143's making the S turn north of Sutter.
I was with my aunt when I shot the videos (it was her camera). It was the first time she rode the R143 cars, and the only thing she didn't like about them were the "butt sink" seats.
There's an article in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/03/nyregion/03TRAN.html
The restrictions on single-occupant vehicles and the shutdown of WTC PATH have maxed out the remaining options. Not one more train can be sent into Penn Station, not one more bus can be sent thru the Lincoln Tunnel.
I think the Manhattan real estate lobby has taken notice. They will see some of their tenants moving to Jersey, while having to cut rents to compete in a renters-market characterized by high vacancy rates.
So. They will push for more transit links to Jersey. Two more tracks under the Hudson to Penn at least. Perhaps a PATH extension.
And they will kick the Congressional Republican likes of Tom DeLay in the nuts: being anti-transit and anti-New York is one thing, but not when it hits fatcat real estate moguls in the pocket.
NYC needs to play hardball. Why should Jersey commuters have an easier time of it when the Lex is just as maxed out? If there is to be more to New Jersey, there has to be more in Manhattan: the 2nd Av subway.
I think the problem with Penn is that there just aren't any places to park the trains. So even new tunnels to Penn would do no good, since the trackage isn't there to support the new trains.
OTOH, a new WTC station that could also take NJ transit, and possibly at least some LIRR would give new options to commuters, and open up slots at Penn for additional service there.
I don't know of the feasability of moving some LIRR service to GCT; that would open up slots for NJT as well.
(Of course, anything you move to GCT will increase traffic on the Lex, so you're trying to serve two masters with mutually exclusive demands.)
Another option perhaps would be some sort of Grand Central Terminal North - perhaps 125 between Park and Lex. MNRR goes there, so you'd add a crosstown line that would carry NJT from northern NJ (Bergen County, for example) to GCT-N, and a NYCT crosstown line on 125 from Broadway, (transfers along the line to the 1, A/B/C/D, 2/3 and MNRR/NJT/4/5/6) over to Randall's Island, then running toward LaGuardia, possibly merging with the 7 at some point. Possibly some LIRR service could be routed there as well (possibly using some extension tracks off the Hell Gate line from Randall's Island?). Of course, that would increase traffic on the Lex even more, and this is something that would be years off in the future in any event. I haven't really thought about it much, just throwing out an idea...
How is this? If they ever get the capacity, connect the Main and Bergen Lines to Manhattan. I think now that you mention it, the PATH should be rebuilt so that NJT and Amtrak can make a downtown Manhattan terminal.
Sounds good.
The advantages of a downtown connection should be obvious, though I don't know the fractions of NJ or LI commuters going to midtown or downtown.
And of course, the situation around WTC is much more plastic at this time than almost any other location in Manhattan due to the attacks.
But anybody whose destination is not in lower Manhattan or Midtown should be kept out of it if at all possible, which is where a Grand Central North would come in. It would also assist in the revitalization of Harlem, which in itself is a good cause.
They don't have to park or reverse the NJT trains at Penn Station. The trains could continue under the East River (there are 4 tracks under the East River vs. only 2 under the Hudson) to the huge Sunnyside Yard in Queens where they could be stored between rush hours. They already do this on a limited basis. The LIRR doesn't need much eastbound track capacity in the morning or westbound in the evening, since it uses the West Side Yard to store trains between rush hours. All that would be needed would be an additional single track tunnel under the Hudson, probably just south of the 2 existing tracks. The current eastbound track would become a reversible center track for peak operations.
Yes, this would work wonders. Really, ending a train at a major station isn't a great idea, due to the longer dwell times. End them in the 'burbs, so they can run right through the CBD without stopping to reverse. Or use loops (but that's not an option with the limited track space at Penn, or almost anywhere else in Manhattan for that matter).
Two words ... Sunnyside yards ... other end of Penn.
This sounds somewhat like the proposal I made a few months ago: Build the 2nd Avenue line as a four-track local-express line. The express would continue to the Bronx. The local would turn west and cross 125th Street, with transfers to all north-south lines. Perhaps at a later date, the crosstown line could be extended to LGA.
A very nice plan. I like it. Too bad we don't have the $$$ to accomplish it.
We don't have the $$$ to do much of anything right now.
"I think the problem with Penn is that there just aren't any places to park the trains. So even new tunnels to Penn would do no
good, since the trackage isn't there to support the new trains. "
Wrong, wrong wrong. The lack of Hudson tunnel space is THE problem. It is the HUGE problem. Trains waiting their turn to squeeze onto one track in each direction across the Hudson - solve that, and then we can talk about parking trains at Penn.
Penn Station capacity per se is a non-issue. Train throughput will improve when there are four tracks across the Hudson.
They could try longer trains into NYP. The PRR was running 22 car trains as late as the 1960's so Penn can definitly handle them.
That would require more cars in the fleet and, IINM, more locomotives per train. How many cars can an NJT loco supply with HEP?
Locomotives and cars are cheaper and faster to be completed than a new tunnel. NJT could just start running 20 car trains after buying the appropiate equipment and wait on a new tunnel for a few years.
NJT could go out tomorrow and lay prefab trackage extending service throughout the state and do what government is supposed to do: serve the people. I know because I've walked the empty cuts. Making more rail service instead of the private buslines would provide more commerce. Ain't gonna happen. CI Peter
Putting off a new Hudson tunnel is penny-wise and pound-foolish. Simply running longer trains doesn't address all the issues. You need more frequent service, and Amtrak needs its own tracks into Penn so Acelas and Metroliners don't have to wait for NJT trains to clear the track.
Of course more buses can be sent through the Lincoln Tunnel. Remind me, how are the lanes configured -- one bus-only and three for general traffic? Convert one general traffic lane to a bus lane and there you go.
I agree 100% with your last paragraph. Unfortunately, New Yorkers don't seem to count.
Of course more buses can be sent through the Lincoln Tunnel. Remind me, how are the lanes configured -- one bus-only and three for general traffic? Convert one general traffic lane to a bus lane and there you go.
True ... but I think the PA Bus Terminal is now at gate capacity just like Penn Station has no more slots. Buses are easier -- you can drop passengers on the sidewalk at the curb -- but in that area curbside loading & unloading could paralyze traffic.
(Plus when the NYT starts buildings its tall office tower between 40th and 41st on 8th Ave, the traffic around there will get EVEN WORSE.)
Couldn't part of 42nd Street be closed to private vehicles (except, perhaps, HOV's) during rush hours?
Actually ALL OF MANHATTAN south of 57th Street can be closed to private automobiles (save for those actually licensed to people who really LIVE in that area).
The streets are crowed enough providing essential access to trucking and other commercial needs.
: ) Elias
No it can't, nor should it. Private vehicles have valid reasons to be there, and at certain times of day they don't get in the way. I would not object, however, to steep tolls to keep unnecessary traffic to a minimum.
I do applaud you for remembering that Manhattan extends north of 57th Street. Most who make similar proposals seem to forget about us 1.5 million Manhattan residents.
Some of whom also live south of 57th Street.
Of course! But acknowledging only those of us north of 57th is still to be commended when many acknowledge none of us at all.
Penn station has plenty of slots. What Penn station doesn't have is a way to clear slots quickly; to do that we need another two tracks across the Hudson. You're looking the wrong way - turn around!
What is more important, 2 new hudson tubes or two new east river tubes extending from the NJT tracks to Sunnyside. The latter could be built much more cheaply.
What is more important, 2 new hudson tubes or two new east river tubes extending from the NJT tracks to Sunnyside. The latter could be built much more cheaply.
Hudson tubes, no question. There are already four tubes across the east river. That imbalance is the bottleneck. East River tubes might be cheaper but they wouldn't do a damn thing to solve the throughput problem.
The east river side sees double if not triple the volume of the Hudson side. Both rivers are bottlenecks, but the current setup has non-revenue NJT and Amtrak trains requiring conflicting moves onto the mainline.
True.
East Side Access, now under construction, will bring East River tube tracks to six from four (albeit two go to GCT).
It's high time something was done under the Hudson. Isn't a $5 billion tunnel already in an appropriation bill somewhere, introduced by a New Jersey congressman?
Eastside access is a waste of money. They should have built a cheaper NJT tunnel under the east River.
Incidentally, according to the article you cited, "The tiny Christopher Street station once handled an average of 3,700 passengers a day; now it handles 8,000." Funny -- my similarly tiny home subway station handled an average of 14,000 passengers a day in 1999 and probably handles more now that there's more local service(granted, crowds there are not nearly as peaked as on PATH), yet it gets no attention whatsoever.
The difference is that Christopher St has only a single, long stairway to handle both uptown and downtown traffic. You just can't move that many people into and out of the station.
The difference is that Christopher St has only a single, long stairway to handle both uptown and downtown traffic. You just can't move that many people into and out of the station.
As part of the PA announcement that they'd get PATH to WTC up and running within 2 years, they noted that improvements would be made to Christopher Street and 9th Street as well. I presume this would be a second staircase and/or elevator. Any notions on where and how, anyone?
All the midtown PATH stations' exits were originally into stores. The idea was that commuters would buy stuff on their way to/from work. It worked as predicted.
So, there must be extra tunnels down there somewhere!
All the midtown PATH stations' exits were originally into stores. ... So, there must be extra tunnels down there somewhere!
Doubt this is the case with Christopher. When it was built, it exited half a block from the waterfront ... that was not exactly a salubrious place for people to go shopping.
Ninth Street, possibly. I don't know what was on the site of the early Sixties white-brick building that now houses the single entrance, and don't know if the station runs uptown or southwest from there. If uptown, most of the original buildings there are still standing -- mostly small residential -- and if downtown, I rather wonder if there was a second entrance on the west side of Sixth Avenue near the former Women's House of Detention (torn down in the Fifties and site now occupied by a park). No major stores around there either, at least now.
14th and up, your comment applies.
Chritopher and 9th each have entrances at one end. The prevailing belief in other postings has been that each has a sealed entrance at the opposite end.
Does it matter that the single staircase is shared by uptown and downtown traffic? In the morning, almost everyone is coming up from the northbound platform. In the afternoon, almost everyone is going down to the southbound platform. PATH ridership is heavily peaked.
At my station, the northbound platform has a single exit (five turnstiles or so) with two staircases to the street. The southbound platform has a similar arrangement, and there is an additional rush-hour-only entrance with one staircase and three turnstiles.
I rode it today KDL-ALW:
- Cab-end truck giving weird "poof" noise upon acceleration, two to three times per stop, only occured when train accelerating hard just after a station stop
- "Poof" was very loud, about the same noise level as banging a sledgehammer on paving block. Could be heard in adjacent coach (01754)
- No loss of light during the "poof" sounds
- PA fully functional
- Train continued to operate despite this
- Jerking action during the "poof"
I told the T/O at Central, and he seemed to be driving at less-than-full-notch for the next few accelerations, and then the traction motors stopped popping after Porter. I asked him at ALW what was wrong with the train, he said "circuit breaker popping, it echoes in the tunnel" and then went on to explain that he isolated the No.7 motor and each traction motor could be individually isolated.
Was he correct? (I suspect the sounds I heard are more like that of a shorted circuit motor not tripping the breakers, thus going "poof".)
Some other T/O said that they only take the train out of service if it's a brake by-pass, and not a traction motor isolation.
Lexcie
Yeah, he was correct. After the "pop", the blue light on the side of the train was lit. He gives the train a reset and the breaker resets and the light goes out.
He probably said he was cutting the seven point. It's T-ese for motor cutout switch.
As for the cut motor versus the cutout brake, it's also true. If the cutout motor doesn't noticably affect speed, the train will finish the rush and then head for the shop. If a brake is cutout, it's diminished braking capability and requires the dispatcher to "manually block" or babysit the train the whole way. The train in front of the diminished capability has to call out when they clear a station and the dispatcher clears the diminished just to that station. It's a pain! They get rid of those as soon as possible.
The 1700's Jeff are DC motors and SCM controller underneath and cineston control. Jeff also 7 point cut out is another name for motor cut out, These cars were built in 1988 by UTDC Canada. Just to clear something up on 7 point cut out, when a 7 point is cut it cuts out he entire car both motors not just one. :)
I have to admit despite some lecturing from my friends at
Seashore, I don't have the MBTA roster memorized. Are the
01700's AC traction units, chopper or straight DC?
The popping sound could have been the line switch (aka circuit
breaker) dropping out from overload. If it were a shorted
traction motor, it would only make that noise once :)
I don't believe it is possible to cut out just one traction
motor and even if it were, there is no #7 motor. Perhaps
"Boston T Party" had the answer. Earlier equipment had a
cam switch on the main switchboard panel to cut out the motors
on a car (all of them, the whole propulsion system). This
was called an "X-point cutout switch", where X depends on the
vintage of the equipment. E.g. on IRT Hi-V and pre-1924 Lo-V
cars, X==10. X refers to the number of trainline wires which
are isolated when the switch is turned.
Here's the scenario. Lexie hears the breaker, it's a hard (or loud) breaker, when the train is drawing leaving a station. At the next stop, the guard spots the blue light and informs the motorman. The train starts out of the station and the motorman puts it in coast and hits a reset on the front panel. He then continues to accelerate which cause the breaker to pop again. At the next stop, the guard sees the blue..... etc.
They do this three times and then the motorman sends the guard to cut the 7 point in the affected car. And as pointed out, it does cut all the traction power in the affected car.
Most times, the breaker is a soft or quiet breaker and usually doesn't happen the three times. I had one today that blew twice over two trips and never was a problem the rest of the day.
I was looking at an old 1948 map of the subway system and I noticed
that the 14th street canarsie line had express stops. The train went from Lorimer St to Myrtle Ave non-stop. It also skipped Sutter ave. When was this discontinued?
The 14th St line used to be served by 2 lines, one to Canarsie, and one to Lefferts Blvd. via the old Pitkin Ave el. the Lefferts Blvd route ran during rush hours, from Lefferts, via today's A train, then along the now gone Pitkin Ave el to Atlantic Ave, where it then merged with the Canarsie line to go into Manhattan. This route skipped all stops from Myrtle to Lorimer St. It was discontinued in 1956 when the old el was closed.
Wow i never knew that. How many lines then actually served Atlantic at one time. It's amazing how far Atlantic on the L has fallen! A few weeks ago it was mentioned it is the least used station in Brooklyn besides the Shuttle!
Atlantic Ave was originally served by four routes: Canarsie/14th St (16), Canarsie/Nassau (14), Fulton/14th St(another 16) & Fulton St (13). But this station only operated at full capacity for 28 years (1928 to 1956).
There was a 5th line for 10 of those years.
What was the 5th line?
Was their a Lexington/Fulton route as well?
Chris: Although it was never offically assigned a BMT route number since it began after the NYCBOT took over the BMTthere was a Fulton-Lexington Line between Lefferts Avenue and Park Row,later cut back to Bridge-Jay Streets. Service began on/about June 1,1940 and ran until October 13,1950 when the Lexington Avenue El was discontinued.
Larry,RedbirdR33
From that starting date, I'm assuming this route was initiated to get those riders who used the Pitkin Ave. portion of the Fulton el to downtown Brooklyn after the Fulton el was closed west of Rockaway Ave.
Chris: I think the reason for the #13 Fulton-Lexington Route was to continue to give Fulton Street El riders a one seat ride to Downtown Brooklyn and Park Row(until 1944). At certain times of the day this train provided all service on the Lexington Avenue El and there were no #12's running.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Don't forget the Broadway Brooklyn Short Line, which ran from Broad or Chambers to Eastern Parkway, and sometimes Atlantic Ave.
It and Broadway Junction are truly majestic stations, and I would have loved to see them when they were at full service.
Broadway Junction, while not what it used to be, is still an amazing structure....even though the neighborhood isn't so great, it's worthwhile to go there duting the day and walk around it, and look at the structure from street level. When I was a little younger I did this a few times.
In fact, in general, I like to walk under big el complexes, you can really see things from a different interesting perspective.
I included that, as the #14 route.
The Queensboro Plaza complex and what it used to be was awsome. The Flushing line west of Grand Cental Parkway to Willets Point is a worthy study as well.
avid
The way I understood it from other posters on this board, since they didn't have an express track they timed it so the express left just before the local with enough headway so it didn't catch up with the train ahead of it. This way the people in Canarsie and Brownsville had a shorter ride without hurting the people using it to Greenpoint, Williamsburg, and Bushwick. I guess they got rid of it because it was only a two track line and the ridership didn't support it.
Jeff, When I moved to Canarsie in 1960 they still had an express service and i recall my grandfather use to take it. Canarsie was first starting to grow then and i believe that subway service was not as much as any other line. I believe that the express was discontinued because of additional service that was needed between Canarsie and Myrtle Avenue. Canarsie had huge growth in the early 1960's when the area was fully developed between Rockaway Parkway and Ralph Avenue. The area between Rockaway Parkway and E.108th Street was built in 1958 and 1959 but some construction was still going on in the early 1960's.
After the express service was stopped the TA started rush hour short trips between 8th Ave and Myrtle Ave but they were discontiinued in the early 1970's
Thank You
I believe that the express was discontinued because of additional service that was needed between Canarsie and Myrtle Avenue. Canarsie had huge growth in the early 1960's when the area was fully developed between Rockaway Parkway and Ralph Avenue.
Current service levels are 15 tph for the entire 14th St - Canarsie Line.
The 1954 service levels were as follows: 8th Ave - Lorimer 24 tph; Lorimer - Myrtle 12 tph; Myrtle - Atlantic 12 tph; Atlantic - Lefferts 6 tph; Atlantic - Canarsie 12 tph (with 6 tph each coming from the Broadway Short Line and the 14th St Line).
Eliminating expresses did nothing to increase service levels on the Atlantic-Canarsie leg nor could it. The only area to be "helped" by eliminating express service would have been the local stations. They did not need help.
Analysis would indicate that the 14th St tunnel trains average the highest load levels of all the Brooklyn to Manhattan services during the AM peak period.
Here's a question that has bugged me for some time.
On four-track lines with the inner lanes as express, why are there different configurations for local and express stations? (I know the obvious reason...)
Why not simply construct all stations in the "express" configuration with two island platforms, with the local trains stopping at all stops, and the expresses stopping only at selected stations?
To me it's the obvious choice. It provides
1. Less confusion - the station layouts are more standardized.
2. Less confusion - the door always opens on the same side with little fluctuation between one stop to the next.
3. More flexibility in designating express stations as demand shifts. For example, if there were an event drawing many people to a "local" stop, the expresses could be temporarily instructed to stop there. Same if a new subway line were built with transfer to the existing line at a "local" stop - it could be redesignated an "express" stop. If an express came up to a crowded platform at a local station, it could make a special stop there to relieve the crowding. In addition, temporal variations in local and express stops (for example, stops which are express only at rush hour or on weekdays) could be more easily implemented.
4. If it were determined that the demand for express service is small in comparision to that for local service, then both sets of tracks could be used for local service (i.e. load the local trains from both sides of the platform). Or the inner tracks could be used for express service during rush, then local otherwise (this falls under the point raised in #3).
Is there some pressing reason why the side platform layout is preferable to island platforms? If it became a problem that people were frightened by the trains going by at high speed, a fence or temporary wall could be erected on the inner sides of the island platforms; converting the station to "express" would then only require removing the fence or wall (or possibly just sections thereof, like the South Ferry inner platform and many stations in other transit systems).
The stations at 34/7th Ave (1,2,3), 34/8th Ave (A, C, E), and Atlantic Avenue (2, 3, 4, 5) have a three platform layout with a common express platform for both directions. That's because:
-There's no room above for a mezzanine between the street and platforms, which is needed at a typical two platform express station.
These three stations are immediately below street level.
-The next stops northward (Times Square and Nevins) have typical two platform layouts where customers can transfer between express and local.
-These stations serve major commuter rail hubs where the additional platform is useful for handling large crowds and discouraging express to local transfers.
>>The stations at 34/7th Ave (1,2,3), 34/8th Ave (A, C, E), and Atlantic Avenue (2, 3, 4, 5) have a three platform layout with a common express platform for both directions. That's because: <<
Yes - these are a few oddballs. But what about in general?
>>-There's no room above for a mezzanine between the street and platforms, which is needed at a typical two platform express station. <<
What about a station with side platforms? Those in general have some sort of crossover, too. If you can't build a crossover of some sort between two island platforms, then you likely couldn't do it for side platforms either. You have two entrances on opposite sides of the street (like 110th St. on the Broadway line).
One possible issue would be for the stations so close to street level that you couldn't do it. In that case, go with the side platforms out of necessity. Even then, it might be possible to go with island platforms if:
The entrance could be made on the curb lane (where you wouldn't/shouldn't have cars moving, only parked/stopped), or
The trains in the local lanes could be run a little further out, to go somewhat under the sidewalk (the stairs to the island platform can even infringe a little on the train's path, so long as it safely clears the roof, though this might present later restrictions on rolling stock replacement).
Or, just make the station a few feet deeper so you can do one of the above (you don't need a full mezzanine, just a few extra feet so some sort of stairs from the curb heading toward the street and thus down to the island platform can clear the train).
A more circuitous design would be to have curb access to a crossunder, from which you can go up to the platforms.
These alternatives would presumably leave only a few as odd cases in which suboptimal design is mandated by external conditions.
>>-The next stops northward (Times Square and Nevins) have typical two platform layouts where customers can transfer between express and local. <<
>>-These stations serve major commuter rail hubs where the additional platform is useful for handling large crowds and discouraging express to local transfers. <<
These are significant issues - discouraging local/express transfer at additional stops, and additional capacity at major stations. I'd imagine there are ways to do this (such as using the 3-platform side-center-side setup for a few stations in which you think in advance that this would be an issue). If the 3-platform station is converted back to local, then simply stop using the center platform.
Alternately, you could use two somewhat wider island platforms, with a wall or fence down the middle. The station wouldn't be significantly wider (since you're getting rid of the third platform in the center), and you can't transfer from local to express. If in the future such transfer were desired, one could simply remove the barrier.
But then why not in the capacity cases a 3-platform setup with island platforms between the local and express, and a third down the center? If you want to discourage cross-platform transfer, or keep the express customers off the outside platforms, then open the train on the inside, to the center platform. Otherwise open the expresses on the outside to make the station operate as a "regular" express, or even open them on both sides for serious "crowd control!"
It's a good question but really has no relevance to systems already built. No existing subway is going to rebuild its four track segments in all island platform configuration. As far as new systems are concerned, virtually all (e.g., Washington METRO, SF Bay Area BART) are two track trunk routes.
The other problem is the theoretical issue of which stops would actually be express stops if all stations had four tracks and two island platforms. Becomes a political hot potato, Case in point - the 61/Woodside stop on the #7 was a local stop for a brief period after 1987 (?) when the line was rebuilt and express service restored after a multi-year period of local only service. After a public outcry express service was restored at Woodside.
I know that it would be completely impractical to rebuild existing stations. My question was, why wasn't it done this way in the beginning?
That is, construct all stations along the four-track route with two island platforms. The few exceptions discussed above (high capacity issues, and discouraging local-express transfer), do with three platforms - two "express" islands and one in the center, or with two wider island platforms with fences down the middle to prevent people from going from one side to the other. The fewer cases where the station must be constructed so close to the street level it's impossible to have a mezzanine, then you use two side platforms, but only out of necessity.
>>The other problem is the theoretical issue of which stops would actually be express stops if all stations had four tracks and two island platforms. Becomes a political hot potato, Case in point - the 61/Woodside stop on the #7 was a local stop for a brief period after 1987 (?) when the line was rebuilt and express service restored after a multi-year period of local only service. After a public outcry express service was restored at Woodside. <<
Yes - this is an interesting issue. If my local home station had the capability of handling express trains, I could be a YIMBY (yes, in my backyard) could scream to the MTA, "Why can't you make the express stop at my-y-y-y-y-y home station? What about moi?" At least the way it currently is, they can stuff their hands into their pockets and say it's impossible (or that ALL service would have to be terminated on the route for 24 months in order to do it, which to the YIMBY is equal to "impossible").
I suppose the MTA would just have to take a hardline stance on it, perhaps by constructing temporary walls on the inner sides of the island platforms (most people wouldn't even know the express train ran there, and those that did would understand enough about the workings of a subway system to know why the train didn't stop there). If they did decide to run express service, then they'd just have to knock down the temporary wall (which could probably be done over a night, or a few nights at most without massive service disruption). Or they could just give a technical mumbo-jumbo explanation: "Well, in order to stop there the tracks need hyperventilated pneumatic brake discombobulator valve shafts, which would require 3 years of service disruption and $17 million to install."
In any event, the example you describe is of a station that was an express station for a long time, then left as local after a long period of service restrictions. I think it's entirely normal to want a return to the original service.
But if usage of the station drops dramatically or something else changes, then the MTA should be entirely justified in converting a station from express to local (which it can do now in most cases). The reverse should be similarly true, in an ideal world.
I think that the best system is used on the Queens Blvd. IND where the express takes a more direct route and the locals between Queens Plaza and 74th Street take a more circuitous route away from the path of the express tracks. For example, the local has a stop at Steinway Street which is a busy shopping area deserving a station, but the express is quite a bit away from Steinway in its more direct route.
The only other instance I know of this is on the IND built part of the F line in Brooklyn where the (unused) express tracks takes a more direct route than the local between 4 th Avenue and Church Avenue.
If you treat the combined Broadway - 4th Avenue lines as the BMT mainline, then the express leaps over the Manhattan Bridge for the express run from Canal to Pacific.
Yes - this is nice, but it requires 2 ROWs and makes it even more difficult to convert local stations to express and vice versa. I suppose it is nice in the outer boroughs, where the local can snake between one densely populated area and another (since there's no necessity for them to lie on a straight line), while the express takes a shortcut. This might be good for outer boros, when an area is already built up (so you have a pretty good idea where the demand is) - narrow 2-track line through the densely populated areas, and a separate 2-track line away from the population center, weaving in and out to meet at express stations.
It's actually going in the other direction from my proposed system (making all stations potentially functional as either local or express), which would probably be better in Manhattan (and downtown Brooklyn and similar places), since it only needs one ROW, and provides maximum flexibility in future evolution of the line.
I think the biggest reason why you can't do that is the safety of passengers waiting at the platforms.
Express trains run at very high speeds, and could injure passengers standing right next to them as they run by. When trains have to bypass a station on the station track they have to slow way down.
You can hardly call *that* an express anymore.
Elias
Well, expresses USED to run at very high speeds, anyway.
It's a CONSPIRACY, man! :)
Yeah, a conspiracy to make RAPID trainsit LEISURELY transit.
The IND 59 St station has a track/platform/track/platform/track/platform/track layout. When I lived in NY (pre-1973), the center platform was used, at least in rush hour, for A and D riders. Doors on both sides would open. From the track maps on this site it appears that the center platform is no longer used.
I would guess that the express trains (i.e., thru trains to/from 8th Av) at Hoyt/Schermerhorn opened on both sides while the Court St station was in service.
Yes - according to the track map (available on this site), there is indeed a center platform at 59th, which is plotted as unused. The A, B, C, and D all stop there, and IIRC they all use the outer island platforms.
At Hoyt-Schermerhorn there are six tracks and four platforms: T-P-T-P-T-T-P-T-P-T. The outermost of the two platforms are plotted as unused (though the description on this site says they and the outermost tracks are used solely to access the NYC Transit Museum, though they used to carry local service to Court St.). The middle and inner tracks are used for the G and A/C, respectively, using the inner two platforms.
I still remember when the center platform at 59th St. was used; in fact, I've gotten off a northbound A train onto it and boarded a southbound D train (of R-32s, no less; may have been an R-32/42 mix) from it.
The center platform at 59 is chained off and unused. (It's not hard to climb over the chain to reach the platform, but you'd be in direct view of the other two platforms and you'd probably be instantly arrested.)
About ten or twelve years ago, the IRT crossunder was closed, and passengers were directed to the IND platforms instead. IMO, the middle of the center platform should be reopened as an IRT crossunder.
What do you mean IND crossunder? The center platform allowed for a crossunder for the IRT. How come it's not possible on the in use platforms?
I meant IRT not IND crossunder.
There is a dedicated IRT crossunder. It's closed now.
Currently, the middle IND platform is closed. Passengers are directed onto the two in-use IND platforms.
I'm suggesting that the middle platform be reopened, to function as a crossunder. Crossunderers wouldn't have to mix with the crowds waiting for the IND, but safety wouldn't be an issue since the middle platform is in direct view of the other two.
I understand what you are saying. it would be good to have a dedicated transfer. A similar problem exists at Canal Street. The Canal bridge platform is way to narrow to handle passengers waiting for trains and people transfering between the M/J/Z,6, and N/R, especially when a Q or W is platformed and just dumped more people on the platform. It wasn't so bad when the platform was abandoned, because people just moved through the station. Not that I see any other way of having the transfer, but with all the people standing waiting for the Q or W on the platform, transfering requires you to walk right along the edge of the platform sometimes! The platforms are very narrow. One day I see someone falling in front of a train at that station.
Yes, Canal is pretty bad. I doubt this is feasible, but I'd like to see a passageway parallel to the platforms but behind the wall (on either side) for transfer purposes only.
Yes, a good idea. For safety sake I'd include a chainlink fence to keep transferees with in the bounds of the columns from stairway to stairway. This would insure safety and keep the place clean and the T/Os from worry about a twosided platform. It would easy congestion in time , after those that crossunder learn thet don't have to bob-n-weave through those passengers waiting for ind service.
avid
With the discussion of multiple platforms, I'm curious if anyone knows how the HH Shuttle from Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Court reversed at Hoyt? How many cars were used on each train?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
It probably ran on one track, but I'm not sure which platform at Hoyt it originated. I'd be interested to know if the Fulton St. trains headed for Manhattan opened both sides of their trains to allow cross-platform transfers to the shuttle.
It's pretty obvious if you look at the track map ("Brooklyn Heights") on this site.
- You can only use 1 track because there are no crossovers.
- There are side platforms not currently in use that could serve the A/C and the shuttle but not the G (which runs down the 2 center tracks).
Did normal two track service ever use Court street, or was it a shuttle right from the beginning? It couldn't have been long, because I believe the shuttle only ran 10 years or so.
To my knowledge, there was never "Regular" service to Court St. It was only a shuttle, and not for very long.
1936 to 1945 to be exact.
I believe the original intent was for the Fulton St. local to terminate there, hence the meager two tracks continuing from Fulton to Eighth Ave. If this original plan was ever put into practice, it wasn't for long.
:-) Andrew
Hagstrom's 1948 IND map still shows the Court St. stub and lists the HH as running between Court St. and Broadway-ENY. By then, of course, Court St. had been closed.
Hagstrom's maps had the Myrtle & Culver lines still operating into the 1980's.
Surprise, surprise.
The suffolk one still has some abandoned LIRR stations on it, and even the Nassau one did until fairly recently, like Meadowbrook.
South Farmingdale, a station that must have been abandonned a hundred years ago, has appeared in the Nassau atlas as recently as the late 1990's, if not even the current edition.
:-) Andrew
HEY! *I* am NOT that old and I remember very well riding LIRR trains that stopped at South Farmingdale ont he Central Branch!!!
If you wanna see REALLY outdated information, try DeLorme Street Atlas USA CD-ROM's. Until version 6.0 (about three years ago) the railroad that exited the tunnels at Hunterspoint Avenue and had a big yard past Roosevelt Avenue was labelled as....PENNSYLVANIA RR!!
In a hagstorm nyc atlas that I have, the K train and the JFK train to the plane are still on the map and its from 1996!
PATH station maps STILL have the Train to the Plane!!
The all-new digitzed Hagstrom 5-Borough street atlas has the passenger station symbol on the LIRR Bay Ridge branch at McDonald Avenue- site of the old Parkville station. It stands separate and apart from the passenger station symbol depicting the Avenue I subway station around the corner.
I've only glanced at the atlas in bookstores and haven't actually bought it yet. There's probably a treasure trove of other such errors.
Well into the eighties, Hagstrom had the Dyre Avenue branch as their presentation of a West Side line- thick, dark line- and the White Plains Branch as East Side- two thin lines running parallel to each other. This was the service pattern until what, about 1962?
Ed: The "HH Fulton Street Local" shuttle service between Court Street Station and Hoyt-Schmerhorn Streets Station began operating on April 9,1936. Trains ran Monday through Saturday from 7am to 7 pm. The May 11,1940 schedule has HH trains leaving Hoyt Street from 701am to 654pm and leaving Court Street from 705 1/2am to 658 1/2pm. Based on this short turnaround time I would venture to say that only a single track was used and I believe it was the westbound but I cannot say for sure. The alternative would have been to relay on the middle track between Lafayette Avenue and Clinton-Washington Avenues. Trains ran on a 10 minute base headway with a rush hour headway of 8-10 minutes. I do not know how many cars were used.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One of the reasons that Penn station on the 7th and 8th have a 3 platform design is because they did not want people transfering b/t local and express there. The figured the crowds would be great enough with out having people jumping off of locals to the express.
Not a bad idea. It's one I've had before.
But the traditional local station is cheaper, and it's preferable to have the station as close to the surface as possible.
But this leads us to a new subthread: If all of the local stations were constructed as express stations, giving the TA the option of converting stations from local to express or express to local, what would be different today? That is, which would be the express stations if the TA could pick any?
Most transfer stations deserve to be express stops. 14th on the F, Bleecker on the 6 (especially if they do a passageway to the uptown 6).
By the way, even though we are generally in the realm of fantasy to consider converting any stop to express service, note on the 1959 system map available on this site that 59th on the Lex is local, whereas by 1964 it has become an express stop. That must have been quite a project!
Also, as amazing as it sounds, Times Square was at one time a LOCAL station. By the same token though, I'm sure there are stations that were designed to be express stations, but don't warrant being express stations now. This is probably especially true in the outer boroughs like Brooklyn.
Also, as amazing as it sounds, Times Square was at one time a LOCAL station.
True, although only for a VERY short time .... from 1906 til the southern portion of the west-side IRT opened (is this "Second Contract"?). And from what I've heard, with the NYT building and all the theatres there, it was obvious almost from the start that it was a disastrous mistake.
There are still a few remnants of the old local station: One section of curved brick and tile wall (southwest end of shuttle) and the semi-famous "Knickerbocker" hotel doorway (southeast end of shuttle).
The shuttle station at Times Square is the original Times Square local station -- with necessary modifications, of course (including a platform over the original southbound express track and a moveable bridge over the two original northbound tracks).
They brought a piece of the old wall with a name tablet up to one of the fare areas where the Times Square Brewery building was. Now the whole building was dismantled, except for the fare contraol area.
They brought a piece of the old wall with a name tablet up to one of the fare areas where the Times Square Brewery building was. Now the whole building was dismantled, except for the fare contraol area.
And that fare control area closed this morning and has been boarded up til "Summer 2002" according to the signs.
Am I the only one who thinks that Times Square station is going to be frighteningly crowded and hard to get into/out of?
They've just closed the largest entrance (as above) on the S side of 42nd between Bway & 7th Ave. That leaves the new one on the NW corner of 42nd & 7th (Reuters Bldg), the changing one on the SW corner (Ernst & Young Bldg), the narrow stairway on the SE corner of 42nd & Bway (bldg covered in construction cloth w/Gap on the ground floor) ... and maybe the old local entrance from the N side of the Shuttle. I think that's IT. (Plus some stuff on 41st Street that few people seem to use)
Plus half the mezzanine over the 1/2/3 is boarded up to provide a work area for storage. The work that's been done so far will definitely make the station better, but that is THE most crowded station in the system and it is now MUCH harder to get in and out of.
I think your fears are unwarranted. That station has many, many exits. One, in the 41st Street IRT mezzanine, recently opened (late summer, IIRC). That makes three exits in that mezzanine alone, plus one near the south end of each BMT platform, plus one near the south end of each IRT platform (currently closed, but scheduled to reopen this month), plus everything you mention, plus all the exits at the other end of the passageway to 8th Avenue. Despite what you seem to think, the 41st Street exits are well-used, primarily by IRT riders.
The IRT mezzanine (I assume you're referring to the one at 41st) used to be a bunch of narrow passageways. It's been opened up and now it's huge. The blocked-off area in the middle is for elevators, I think. In any case, there's still a lot more room to maneuver. I transfer between IRT and BMT frequently, and I almost always go that way now.
You're referring to the Dual Contracts portion which extends south along 7th Ave. from Times Square. The Contract Two portion extended the original line to South Ferry and Atlantic Ave.
Yes, the planners of the original Contract One route really dropped the ball (no pun intended) when the Times Square station was made a local stop. It became the most popular local stop along the original line, so much so that theater owners went so far as to unsuccessfully petition the IRT to install crossover switches near the station so that express trains could also stop there.
Get this: the error was almost repeated when the Dual Contracts were signed. Luckily, someone realized this would be a huge mistake before construction began and plans were revised to make Times Square an express stop on both the IRT and BMT lines.
74th Street on the 7? Express.
The express platforms at 59th St. on the Lex were carved out of the rock the line goes through. Not as difficult as, say, threading the 6th Ave. line through the maze at 34th St.
Columbus Circle/59 st on the 1
An obvious choice -- but what do you do with the rest of the line? 96 has to be an express station, since it's where the 2/3 split from the 1. 42 has to be an express station; I needn't explain why. Are there no express stations between 59 and 96? If so, locals would be overburdened even more than they are now. If not, then there isn't much of an express run. But perhaps the good express runs are best reserved for sections of the line that aren't quite so busy.
Wanted to get an early start because today I was going to SI and take some photgraphs.
I took a 7 express from Flushing at 8am, and got to GCT aroun 8:25am. Went to the downtown lex platform. A Redbird 4 pulls in packed to the gills. I had to get on this one since I wanted to make sure I got 9am ferry. This was the most crowded train I have ever been on, there wasn't any breathing room. It was packed like sardines until Wall st when the whole train emptied out. I got off at Bowling Green and walked to S.Ferry. The area is very busy, it seems lower Manhattan is back to life (with the sad exception of Chinatown).
It doesn't help they don't mention Chinatown in those I love NY ads.
Anyway I had the John F. Kennedy, but fortunately no cars got on (cars should be banned permanently from the ferry).
Got the SIR train at St.George and took it to Tottenville where I took some pics. Then I took a bus along Hylan blvd and made some stops along the way (Mt.Loretto, New Dorp, Eltingville) in that order, even though there was some backtracking. Now I got some pictures of SI, NYC's forgotten borough.
Went to the mall for a little while then took the SIR from Eltingville to St.George where I got some more pictures. I was hoping to get a shot of the small B&O signals they use, but most of them are only in between stations so that would be hard, but they are still there. Ride on SIR was pretty fast, those R44's ride more like LIRR cars than subway cars (we knew this already of course).
Going back on the ferry I had the Lehman. I have a sensitive nose and noticed the "smell" as we neared S.Ferry terminal.
Once we got there I went down to Whitehall st and took an R. This was around 5:30pm and this R train was packed after Rector. Jam packed, usually it is not this bad. I heard some vaugue announcement of a police investigation somewhere.
At TSQ I pried my way out of the jam packed R46 R and went down to the 7. The express arrived on the other track, the one that leaves on a diverging route, whereas the local arrived on the south track.
There was congestion going east a bit more than usual, and once on the express we passed 3 locals and caught up to a 4th at Shea. Looks like the line was backed up or something. Saw track workers near Woodside interlocking on the Main st bound local track, maybe there was a problem.
The area is very busy, it seems lower Manhattan is back to life (with the sad exception of Chinatown).
It doesn't help they don't mention Chinatown in those I love NY ads.
It's bad enough that the Times runs these whining articles about how bad things are in Chinatown (and Little Italy too), this week the Village Voice has one as well. What is conveniently forgotten is the fact that both neighborhoods were deeply troubled well before September 11th. Mystical girls aside, Chinatown has been looking increasingly run-down, untidy, and non-prosperous for years. September 11th merely exacerbated the decline. As for Little Italy, it has long since ceased to be a neighborhood in the usual sense, having been reduced to just a couple blocks of third-rate restaurants.
I will agree the trouble in Chinatown started before Sept.11th, but the rate of decay accelerated quite rapidly since Sept.11th.
I wonder if the MTA has kept statistics on the Canal st complex (N,R,Q,W,6,J,M). I'd like to compre ridership stats from August till December.
Interestingly Chinatown was alot busier two weeks after Sept.11 than 2 months after.
It seems like the SIRT R-44s are pretty fast cars compared to the R-44s used on the regular subways. Even though the fires are out at Ground Zero I guess at least to you the "smell" still lingers. I'd probably be able to smell it as well despite the fact that I have a concealed cleft palate. Though it affected my speech slightly, it hasn't affected my ability to smell. Under good conditions my nose works quite well.
#3 West End Jeff
IIRC the SIRT R-44s still have the final field shunt step enabled.
Did they remove the time delay doorchimes on them?
The time delay on the door chimes on the SIR R-44s was removed when the cars were overhauled. The later (R-46 through R-68A) style door chimes were installed, without a time delay.
David
The door chimes also sound different on SIR 44's, and I like it, just like the added field shunt step.
Hopefully they won't disable the final field shunt step just to slow the cars down. Slow cars aren't needed on the SIRT. They aren't needed on the subway system in general either.
#3 West End Jeff
Damn straight!
It's very easy to notice. The 44's have much faster acceleration. too bad the field shunt was removed on NYC subway cars. Another over-reaction in the name of safety.
When the accident occured on the Williamsburg Bridge the train was going uphill at perhaps 30 mph. Even with the field shunt removed such an accident could still happen.
#3 West End Jeff
Since the removal of full field shunting, "standard" NYC subway cars (pre-R-110) have difficulty maintaining, let alone increasing, speed on up-grades, particularly on long ones.
David
With all due respect, we dont need to know about every trip you take.
With all due respect, no one is forcing you to read posts that you're not interested in.
Fred: Last night I answered your question about when the D-Types ran on the Sea Beach. I also offered to by you two hot dogs at Nathan's the next time that you come east if you could tell me the date of the last regular revenue run of the D's and the line that they ran on.
Whatsamatta? Don't you want the hot dogs.
Best Wishes,Larry, RedbirdR33
"I R T" Where we still have the "RAPID" in Interborough Transit.
I think we put him off his lunch a few days ago, but that's a prohibited thought. :)
If he don't want em, I'll take em!
BTW, I went by there a couple weeks ago (Christmas eve to be exact), and they have a buy one get one free on dogs at Nathans. You can print out the coupon from their website, or they give you one when you buy something there.
For a second time, I was able to go to the Training Facility at Livingston Street. I did the E line from Jamaica Center to WTC. This time, I've got pics! They are dark though cuz the cab light didn't work :-\
The files with custom in the name are resized for dialup:
Enjoy!
How does a non-TA employee access the sim?
You don't. Security has gotten tighter at 130 Livingston Plaza since Sept. 11th. I've been in the building many times on official business, but the training areas are basically off-limits to non-TA folks.
Mr rt__:^)
I glad you had fun. Know only if they let me in to play with there Simulator.
I was down there twice they said Conductors are not allowed to use it Train Operators Only.
I glad you had fun. Know only if they let me in to play with there Simulator.
I was down there twice they said Conductors are not allowed to use it Train Operators Only.
Clayton, think about this: isn't it stupid not to let people who want to learn ??? I can operate any trainset...it is part of my job...to test in static conditions. What I will do is to DL the BVE simulator with updates....probably far better than PS248 or whereever. CI Peter
Actually, if the new sim everyone's talking about is based on BVE's rendering engine, it'll make for a VERY good sim. Given Ed Yee's FINE work on the 143's and the Franklin shuttle route, if I were a TA wiglet, I would have had motor instructors using BVE for school car and a mockup panel. In fact the QUALITY of Ed Yee's work was the reason why I *had* to do the "real thing" when I came to the city (both some cab time in a REAL 143 as well as the Frankie) and Ed did a WONDERFUL job on it all ...
Download that puppy, Peter ... anyone who's done the real thing can really appreciate why the BVE sim is far and above what MSTS is ...
Thanks for the high praise. Wait till you see the R68A. Interactive controllers!!!
I check in every couple of days. Two fisted ops is the only way to go. I'm also waiting to see what you do with the Q ... but knowing what I can expect when you're done, I'm willing to wait. :)
But you SURE do crank out good stuff ...
It sucks
On my way to work tonight, I saw another notice that the subway surface lines are going to divert nightly once again after 900p, for some more construction.......i have two points on this
1)What is SEPTA installing, I hope it's not that new signal system which had the system closed for most of last year at night...whats the holdup?
2)Is anyone else annoyned at all these system closures. It's hell for those who live near these lines. You close all subway surface traffic after 900p, you have to wait on dark, cold and dangerous 40th street, where a SEPTA Police offficer or supervisor is not even there to protect passengers, and then on the weekends you have the El shutdowns. I'm all for system inprovements, but why stress your existing riders. Why not use the overnight hours to get this work done, the subway is already closed at that time anyway
The subway-surface is out for two reasons. One is the signal system installation (STILL!). The other is various rail projects, one of which is on the EB east of 19th St where there has been a long-standing slow order.
Why the El shuttles can't start at 40th for the west side outages is is beyond me. SEPTA insists on doing this at 15th, which creates traffic problems with all the congestion already there on the surface and rider confusion with the 'courtyard' stairs and escalator (NW corner 15th & Market) out due to construction. Ending train service at 40th also allows better connection if/when the subway-surface is on diversion. Go figure. The current feeling seems to be that weekend riders aren't worth the worry.
On January 2,2002 a approximately 3:30pm. Service on the MBTA's Orange Line was halted for approximately 3 hours and substitute bus service put in place when a 23 year old man from Sommerville,MA decided to jump under the train heading for Forest Hills at Sullivan Square in Charlestown, MA getting himself caught between the third rail abd the running rail. I was there today and you can see where he was hit by the sand spread around and the trail of mush they were not abe to clean up. Photo was in the Boston Globe today.
Hey gang,
The 14th St./Canarsie L Line as we know is a local service on its entire run. I am wondering if there ever existed an express service on this line as I have an old Hagstrom subway map from around WW2 that indicates express stations in addition to the local stations. As I have never noticed any express "cages" in the stations, was this service, if it did exist, skip-stop? This would have been one of the few types of express runs that by-passed local stations with out a cage of girders, whooshing by the open platforms. Perhaps the Hag map is in error and it is now a collectable rarity. ;)
Tunnel Rat
Several old Brooklynites explained this some years back, but in case they aren't looking, I'll give you their answer.
There is a turnaround track beyond Myrtle, were a "local" waited to leave. As the "express" left Myrtle, if followed immediately behind. The "express" skipped nearly all the stations on the way to Manhattan, with the "local" falling further and further behind. The "local" would arrive at 8th Avenue just ahead of the "express" behind it.
Repeating this pattern would be difficult today -- it takes the TA longer to turn trains around at terminals. These days, the TA is more likely to go with skip stop. But you need 20+ trains per hour to limit the wait at any individual station, and the ridership has to justify that amount of service.
>>As the "express" left Myrtle, if followed immediately behind. The "express" skipped nearly all the stations on the way to Manhattan, with the "local" falling further and further behind. The "local" would arrive at 8th Avenue just ahead of the "express" behind it. <<
Wouldn't the express eventually catch up with the local just ahead of him ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Nah, Zman was piloting the local. :)
The idea was that with a 6-minute headway on each, the express would gain about 4 minutes--i.e., the express left a minute BEFORE the local and arrived 8th Avenue a minute AFTER the local in front.
Same thing they do with the "zoned" expresses on MN and LIRR.
It works out well on the LIRR Babylon branch, running express and local on the same track. It's all timing. Of course the subway runs many more trains, so it's much harder to get it to work.
Wouldn't the express eventually catch up with the local just ahead of him?
The reason this service worked is because the BMT exploited the differences in operating characteristics between the Multi's and the Standards. The Multi's ran as locals and the Standards as expresses. This reduced the differential between a local and express.
They ran 24 tph on the 14th St line or 150 second headways. The time in seconds out of Myrtle would be: 0(E); 90(L); 300(E); 390(L); etc. By the time they reached Lorimer the relative times would be: 0(E); 210(L); 300(E); 510(L); etc. Both trains made all stops between Lorimer and 8th Ave. The Multi's would gain on the Standards because of their higher acceleration and braking rates. By the time they reached 8th Ave the relative times would be equalized: 0(E); 150(L); 300(E); 450(L).
Was the connection at Lorimer for the G there yet? If it was, it would be bad to skip Lorimer. Did the expresses stop at Lorimer? How long did this service last (and when)?
Before 1940 it didn't matter - the BMT could care less if you could connect to the IND or not ;-)
My 1931 BMT guide shows the express service - it was weekday rush hour only -westbound in the am and eastbound in the pm. The guide only states that the service was express between Lorimer and Myrtle so I assume it stopped at these stations. My 1937 BMT guide shows an additional rush hour express service using the 14th Street Line - this operated from Lefferts Ave (Fulton St Line) to 8th Ave (14th St).
If the Lefferts trains ran as expresses, it means that the Multis were running express, as the Standards were too big and heavy for the old section of the Fulton St. El over Pitkin Ave. Seeing as only 25 Multis were built, that meant that in rush hour, they were essentially all assigned to the 14th St-Fulton St service.
-- Ed Sachs
Yes, this is so. In the "Cars of the BMT" book, it is stated that the multis ran on the 14th St/Fulton route during rush hours. Other times the multis ran on the Canarsie/14th St route, until 1956.
After 1956, the Multis ran on the Myrtle-Chambers route, rush hours only. By that time they they were suffering from defferred maintenance and they probably needed to patch them up during the day for one or two more round trips in the PM rush hours. The head end route signs on some of them were stuck on '13' (the number of the Fulton St line, used on the 14th St/Fulton expresses), leading me to incorrectly conclude in 1960 that 13 was the number of the Myrtle-Chambers line (should be 10). They were finally retired in 1961, replaced by Standards from the southern division freed up by the arrival of the R27s. All were scrapped - none remain.
-- Ed Sachs
All were scrapped - none remain.
And what a shame that was ...
"the Standards were too big and heavy for the old section of the Fulton St. El over Pitkin Ave. "
That was one of the reasons the Multis were built.
Also, the later "R-39" contract (never built) was a similar idea, lightweight stainless steel cars for the BMT (presumably the Myrtle). I can't think of any other BMT els they might have needed lightweight cars for, because the Fulton El was already taken over by the A by that point, correct?
They must have had alot less trains running on that line, in order for express and local to run on the same track.
There was a plan at one time that involved skip stop on the L line. What ever came of it? I never heard anything again. There is a gray letter on some trains, Y I think, that is reserved for this service. Someone on subtalk a few weeks ago see the gray "Y" (or whatever letter it is.
The existing skip-stop line and the one that ran through the morning of 9/11 don't have 20+ tph.
Just heard on 1010 WINS that TA plans to rebuild the tunnel and have the 1/9 line open by next fall. They will not reopen the Cortlandt St. station at that time, though, just Greenwich and South Ferry.
Here's hoping that Cortlandt stays closed til it can be integrated into a rethought and redesigned Hudson Terminal PATH station ....
(If this was covered earlier on the site, my apologies.)
Here's a link to the story on the WCBS 880 Web site. (Yeah, the stations are co-owned, but we compete. Just like GM's Chevrolet and Buick Divisons.)
I guess that means all the thinking about relocating the line and reconstructing the South Ferry terminal was just hot air.
-Hank
Just another free-standing, Subtalk misbelief powered by railfan fantasies (= railfantasies?).
If we start a thread about it, that is what will come to be, right???
MATT-2AV
It was pretty quick before this one evaporated due to lack of funding. Most subfantasies are sustained way longer.
Ya dont think having the 'wealthiest mayor
in NY history' had anything to do with this
promptness, do ya??... naaaah... ;)
If so, I like Mike
The relocation of the line was just one of three options. The decision was made to rebuild in kind for the first part of the restoration job in order to expedite the restoration of service down to the Ferry. Per my understanding of the current thinking of this restoration, the reconstruction of South Ferry (i.e. platform lengthening to accomodate 10 cars etc.) is envisaged to be done on a future contract. Also in a future job,the Rector Streets stations on the IRT and BMT would be connected and the Cortlandt street station made a part of a transit hub with neighboring lines and railroads as a reader wrote.
the reconstruction of South Ferry
(i.e. platform lengthening to accomodate 10 cars etc.)
We're already havin' enough trouble trying to
rebuild portions of a tunnel... to reconstruct
the SF station itself would require an extending
of the loop (yes, Virginia it IS a loop station)
and breaking down additional tunnel portions
(inwhich consist cars 6-10 await) which could
possibly run right into Rector on the head end.
Keep it a loop... aint many like it.
The loop would be kept as far as I understand. The loop is needed in the event of a General Order in the 2/3 tunnel so they can route trains down the 1/9 line around the loop up to Bowling Green and up to Wall street and then change ends and go on to Brooklyn.
The loop needn't be changed. In fact, the idea I hear is that the loop would be kept and the platform used as a walkway to the Ferry which would be in a new terminal bldg. The So Ferry terminal would have straight platform three layup tracks. Possibly under Battery Park. This is not a 123 project.
I'm still having trouble envisioning where this new SF station would lie. East of the existing station, you have to worry about the Broadway line and connection to the Montague tunnel. Underneath the loop are the 4/5 tracks to the Joralemon tunnel, and the 4/5 tracks are intertwined with the 7th Ave tracks at the north end of the loop. That leaves west of the station, which might put it kind of far from the Ferry terminal (it will be moving somewhat to the northeast once the new (old) terminal is repaired), you need to worry about infringing on the BBT and BP Underpass, and would likely require a great deal of excavation in Battery Park.
Also, if a new SF station were going to be built, any chance of having a connection to the Joralemon tunnel, for possible alternate access (if only for emergencies - remember the J on 4th Ave?)
I can't come to picture SF having
3 layup tracks!?....
I know - it's just unthinkable, not to have the curved platform, the chains along the platform boundary, the gap fillers bzzzzing out to meet the opening doors...
I tell ya, one time I did have fun there - I think the T/O overshot the mark, or the gap fillers weren't working. The train sat there for a few minutes, and finally the C/R came around keying the doors open, and we had to step over the gap to get off the train. Ahh, the good times in that old station...
One gets the impression from this story that Cortland St. will demolished permanently. Is that so?
My impression is that it'll be rebuit whenever the whole WTC complex is rebuilt, hopefully with integrated walkways that connect all train lines plus the WFC. Maybe 2006-2008.
One gets the impression from this story that Cortland St. will demolished permanently. Is that so?
From the Times article:
"The Cortlandt Street Station, which is directly beneath the trade center plaza and was heavily damaged, will be demolished, and the shape of any new station in that area will be part of much larger plans for redevelopment and a memorial at the trade center site, officials said."
It was already demolished, on September 11.
The whole platform wasn't demolished at Cortlandt, was it? In pictures, it looks like at least part is intact.
Its like a car. The insurance company gets to decide when it is totaled. Sure there may be some parts that aren't damaged, but it hardly matters at this point.
Not entirely. It was heavily damaged.
The term is 'structural failure'. It's not that parts of it are not still standing, but that the damage is so severe that its remains must be removed if trains are to safely go thru it. Besids the station, there are two tunnel segments with equally severe damage.
It is both faster and safer (and probably cheaper) to rip out nearly everything and essentially start from scratch.
Will Cortlandt be opened again when the new WTC is opened or will it be removed as a stop forever?
Will Cortlandt be opened again when the new WTC is opened or will it be removed as a stop forever?
It will likely be rethought and combined into a new transit hub that includes IRT "Cortlandt" station, PATH "new Hudson Terminal" and BMT "Cortlandt" station. This will be much later than the line will open, though. The existing station will probably be removed entirely with only the tracks remaining by the time the line opens.
Much SubTalk speculation on various designs, linkages, alignments, etc. in other parts of this thread.
It's such a waste/shame. They did such a nice job redoing the station too.
Certainly.
If it's any consolation, the mullahs at Kandahar probably put some effort into their headquarters. But it was too ugly to stay up, so our B-52s demolished it for them. Even took out some of the architects.
Free of charge. Such incredibly good customer service...
I kind of like the idea that a #1 train goes to Brooklyn once again, even if it is for only a short duration. It will probably drive my Brighton friends groggy, but I did like the Brighton's old #1 desigination of yesteryear, and the fact that the #1 now goes to New Lots Avenue is somewhat a bit of nostalgia to me. I hope to ride it when I come to New York. That's just my opinion on the matter.
You're thinking of the BMT station. The IRT station was redone when the WTC first opened, and like most other 70's rehabs, it was pretty ugly.
You are right it was the N/R station. Well at least that will open again.
Actually, it took about seven years or so after the WTC opened before the Cortlandt IRT station was rehabbed. Between the demolition in the late 60s and the WTC construction in the early 70s, the station's tile work was in pretty awful shape by around 1973, and stayed that way for the rest of the decade.
Once again, the MTA goes for the "quick and cheap" fix.
Once the line is open, forget about improvements.
I'll offer my comment as I offered it over elsewhere ...
Here is yet another sad convergence of POLITICS and NYCTA ... seems pretty apparent that the federal money to cover NYC taking a punch in the face for the REST of America is being met with the political "drop dead" again from the swine in DC. Of course ENRON gets their money back.
MTA Board apparently has read the tea leaves and realizes that things HAVE TO get back to normal one way or the other. I'm sure this decision is also a piece of Mayor Mike's pragmatism ... "let's get it going somehow for now and see what we can do later." I *hope* this isn't the end of the story but lower Manhattan needs those lines restored by whatever means is possible and as QUICKLY as possible.
But half a subway is better than none, especially when the House of Texans decides to stiff New York. Again. We can all argue over "politics" but the end result is always NYC getting shafted by those who build highways that only armadillos use while we're SOL ...
I won't argue with your view of Texans' opinions about New Yorkers. And I don't doubt we'll get shafted in the future too.
But this just wasn't the right place to spend the money. It's only 500' from Rector and West to Rector and Trinity. A $20 million bridge over West at Rector will do almost as much for lower Battery Park City as a $1 billion project to move the 1 over to West St.
And the workers at the WFC will benefit more from walkways truly integrated into the entire subway system than they would from a station at Vesey and West that most of them wouldn't use. Those walkways will really be worth the money, and we'd better spend our own money on them if the feds don't give us any.
Agreed ... but let's hope that some federal pork DOES manage to come to NYC. After all, we're all paying MORE that enough as it is for taking a stabbing from whiners down south who got a mere dusting of snow and are totally losing it. Somehow I think what WE got was a bit worse. :)
You should see what happens when it snows in Denver. DOT panics and starts dumping gravel, gravel everywhere even if the roads are merely wet. People in SUVs spin their wheels at intersections. It's ridiculous.
Heh. You ain't seem them deal with snow in South Carolina yet ... now THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT. :)
You ain't seem them deal with snow in South Carolina yet ... now THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT. :)
One of the funniest video clips I ever saw was from an Atlanta station that parked a camera near a cloverleaf during a snowstorm. The drivers came slowly down the ramp and either slid to the outside ditch, joining a row of cars already there, or to the inside ditch, ditto.
heh! I took my driving test (in Rochester, NY) when it was 4 degrees below zero and 14" on snow on the ground. Couldn't parallel park 'cause the spaces were full of plow-piles, and never got out of 2nd gear. Take THAT, sunbelt weenies!
Smallbany myself, February with 26 inches on the "parallel parking test" ... that my examiner wasn't killed was good enough. That I did the parallel park while the PLOW skidded was "instant car-ma" ... heh.
I got my license on September 11, 1973. Drove around the block once, with the examining officer bouncing all over the seat (he wasn't wearing his seat belt while I was). Wayne remembers that day for another reason.:-)
Heh. I did OK, the plow didn't ... I'll leave it there. I passed with flying colors, just like school car. Did about as well out on the REAL road which is why NANCY drives. :)
Last January in Hastings-on-Hudson where I live I saw somebody get stuck in an SUV in a minor snowstorm of all things. I just kept rolling along in my 1998 Honda Civic with four snow tires.
#3 West End Jeff
OK, I just got back from having to drive through the snow in Arizona, as in the south there are two types of problems:
1.) Drivers (pickups and SUVs especially) who don't understand the meaning of the term "black ice" and think if they can see the white stripes on the Inrterstate, that means it's OK to do the speed limit of 75 mph.
2.) State highway departments who don't want to have to worry about rust damage to their overpasses (hello, I-90 and I-81 upstate) and throw sand on the things in snow and ice conditions, which naturally gets knocked off the road after the first two or three truck-tractors have gone by.
Fortunately, I think Chevron or some other company has come up with a road de-icing chemical to replace salt that's supposed to last about 24 hours. Hopefully, a few of the southern state highway departments will actually buy some.
We've got 8 inches so far up here where I-87 crosses I-90. We're sitting and watching videos of Georgia residents fighting the mighty half-inch drifts in the company bar. CSX is remarkably silent too - back in the Gonerail days, a foot wouldn't have slowed the railroad down at all ...
I was stuck for eight hours on an LIRR train west of Patchogue during the great Blizzard of `69 (actually it was just a good blizzard; Lindsey's screw-up with the Sanitation Department turned it into a great one), and the lesson seemed to be if you let the trains stop running for a while the more snow there's going to be on the tracks later on.
As for snow driving, hopefully the next time Austin, Tex., gets an ice storm Time Warner's NewsChannel 8 down there will share some of its fun footage of I-35 drivers with its sister NY1 station -- talk about clueless motorists, especially on the downtown viaduct, which naturally ices over first.
Yep ... have got folks living down in the Carolinas and when it snows, they stay home, gather in the bay window and watch the hijinx. And yes, if you stop the railroad, you'll need a snowblower when you decide to open back up. Looks like about 10 inches here, CSX is doing their thing and all's well. Upstate, 10 inches is like an inch and a half in the city ... no big thang. :)
Oddly enough, my aunt, uncle, and cousins from Atlanta were HERE when the snow hit Atlanta. They laughed at the footage on CNN of the highways.
-Hank
We thought it a hoot also in all sincerity ... musta been rough piling through those half inch snowbanks. Now for anyone from the sooth who si about to get honked at me for these words, we did 14.8 inches overnight and it's now at 15.2 as it starts the BACKLASH of the Low, a new binary Low about to barrel through for the daytime hours. We'll probably get up to 20 inches by nightfall, not that there's anything wrong with that.
FORTUNATELY, I'm an indentured servant with the software company here, so I *live* on company property ... when it DOES get plowed, I'll be able to leave ... whenever that actually occurs. Heh. Such is the life upstate. If NYC got something like this though, it'd shut down entirely, the trains would be on panic schedule if any at all, and here, everything's running. The main roads were clear last night. Amtrak's ON SCHEDULE and so is CSX and CP ... one inch of snow down on the Island though and LIRR would be in BIE and NYCTA would be running the SETs ... gotta love the difference. :)
Hell yeah it was rough! I got the bottom of my shoes wet from the snow. :) Here, if one snowflake falls, schools are closed and everyone gets into a wreck. MARTA was running normally, however. Don't blame us though, we only get snow once a year, if that, and 5 inches is about tops.
Heh. Been down 85, know the drill. But for ANYONE who knows what to do when the road turns white, gotta admit, it's better than going to the mousetrap in Orland0 ... we just passed TWO FEET of snow since sunset last night here, and it's coming down harder than between 10 and midnight when we got 8 inches over those two hours ... Thank GOD those of us who call upstate home are used to this, even if it's been a year since the last glopping like this.
For those who complain about city life though, this one snowfall is going to cost MORE than $600.00 out of "upstate pockets" where the rents are MUCH cheaper (so are the wages) just to put it in perspective. FRONTLOADERS ... the municipal Zamboni is BURIED. :)
Lucky for us, heavy snow doesn't seem to disrupt light rail schedules. Then again, most of our light rail running is on private ROW.
1.) Drivers (pickups and SUVs especially) who don't understand the meaning of the term "black ice" and think if they can see the white stripes on the Inrterstate, that means it's OK to do the speed limit of 75 mph.
Truckers don't understand either - my son-in-law being a prime example. He jacknifed on a bridge near Prescott in mid-December; by the time the snapping and banging stopped, the nose of his truck was buried in the side of his 53' trailer. When our daughter called and told us I tried to be sympathetic, but I'm not sympathetic to the point of giving them the down payment on a new rig like she wanted me to.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Magnesium chloride? They use it here in Denver. It's welcome on the freeways; they're actually dumping less gravel now. The drawback is that if you don't wipe it off your windows within 24 hours or so, it becomes as hard as concrete. Even if you do wipe it off, it leaves a greasy film. Water or cleaning solution will do the trick.
There's some peddlers selling an ALCOHOL and Ethylene Glycol based product for $40 a gallon as a liquid that you put on roads (used in Alaska) and guarantees 14 days of clear road even if it snows again.
What we found works best on our own private highway up the hill is plain old corn squeezings and a good bit of sand. Amazing what the SUN can do if there's something darker than snow to catch its attention. But for serious snow protection, alcohol and some fat (ethylene glycol) works wonders at altering the 32 degree scientific constant (Zero C pour les Canadiens) ... same stuff they use to de-ice airliners with variations in mixtures ...
Verr-rr-rrrrry interesting.
Yep ... another theory shot to hell though THIS snow - we got just under 19 inches, put out our goop and now it's slick and LUBRICATED. Agggh. :)
Sounds like the same deal as we used to do up in Syracuse when the temperatures finally got above 32 degrees -- head to the self-service car wash and hose that sucker down completely, top and undercarriage, before the water and sodium chloride meltdown started working its way through your car's panels (the alternative was to follow Rod Serling's advice and Zeibart your whole auto, but that was kind of pricey for a youth of my limited means...)
But this just wasn't the right place to spend the money. It's only 500' from Rector and West to Rector and Trinity. A $20 million bridge over West at Rector will do almost as much for lower Battery Park City as a $1 billion project to move the 1 over to West St.
And the workers at the WFC will benefit more from walkways truly integrated into the entire subway system than they would from a station at Vesey and West that most of them wouldn't use.
On the whole, I agree.
PROS:
- line gets back up and running within a year
- 1/2/3 service gets back to normal
- elevators get added (hthe NYT piece) to S. Ferry & Greenwich
SORRY ... very touchy keyboard ... here's complete response!
But this just wasn't the right place to spend the money. It's only 500' from Rector and West to Rector and Trinity. A $20 million bridge over West at Rector will do almost as much for lower Battery Park City as a $1 billion project to move the 1 over to West St.
And the workers at the WFC will benefit more from walkways truly integrated into the entire subway system than they would from a station at Vesey and West that most of them wouldn't use.
On the whole, I agree.
PROS:
- line gets back up and running QUICKLY (within a year)
- 1/2/3 service gets back to normal
- elevators get added (hints the NYT piece) to S. Ferry & Greenwich
- Cortlandt gets integrated into new transit complex whenever it gets designed & built
- Feds pay for all/most of the cost
CONS:
- S. Ferry stays as is (5 cars long)
- Long-term (50 years) flaws with this line don't get addressed
On the whole, given AlM's arguments ... I think TA made the right choice.
The question is: Can the TA and PA cooperate to build something that truly leads to better interconnections among subway riders, PATH riders, ferry passengers and whatever gets built above? Or, can they actually benefit the folks who pay the fares?
(I'd *love* to see cross-platform transfers between PATH and IRT and/or BMT, but that may be asking for too much ... )
I fully concur with all your pros. If speed of reconstruction is the main criterion, then the MTA's limited plan is the best option.
However, if the reconstruction of the damaged portion is done in a manner that would preclude any later changes, then we are back to being locked in to a bad design.
Perhaps the MTA could design the rebuild with a bellmouth to allow them to take the 1/9 to the west at a later date, if appropriate, and also leave room for interconnections with the B Division (WTC and Rector Street) and PATH.
PS - the reason you won't see a cross-platform transfer to PATH is the vertical separation between the 1/9, E, and N/R services and the PATH line -- to keep the grades at a reasonable level, the PATH station would still be at least one level below the others.
Perhaps the MTA could design the rebuild with a bellmouth to allow them to take the 1/9 to the west at a later date, if appropriate, and also leave room for interconnections with the B Division (WTC and Rector Street) and PATH.
Hmmm. A western extension would have to turn under the WTC site (the part to be rebuilt) and penetrate the bathtub. Since it sounds like a large chunk of the eastern half (east of the bathtub) will already be transit, I have to wonder (a) how much bathtub space such a line would chew up; and (b) whether the resulting line would make much sense. Much better pleasant underground walkways to WFC/BPC, I'd say ... and much, MUCH cheaper. I'd bet no bellmouth gets built.
the reason you won't see a cross-platform transfer to PATH is the vertical separation between the 1/9, E, and N/R services and the PATH line -- to keep the grades at a reasonable level, the PATH station would still be at least one level below the others.
Probably true, although old Hudson Terminal was considerably higher up than the WTC 7th-level-basement station. But no doubt PATH stays a level below the IRT. How bout stacking northbound and southbound platforms, so Jersey folk coming in on PATH could walk up a flight of stairs onto the 1/9? There are fare-control issues, but by THAT time PATH will surely take MetroCard ....
AND, as part of the rebuild/rethink, what about connecting the E terminal at WTC/Hudson Terminal into the N/R? J Lee and others had a long discussion about this a few weeks ago. You probably have to get rid of, or radically rethink, the Cortlandt BMT station to do proper flyovers and flyunders to avoid switches across active lines. But think of the flexibility THAT would bring (IND through BMT tunnel, BMT up 8th Ave!). Note also that the TA has not yet said anything about the BMT Cortlandt station.
All of your points make good sense.
The Hudson Terminal platform elevation was (is) 15-20 feet below the N/R level.
Those are very well thought out pros and cons. What is best in the minds of railfans isn't always the best solution (for better or worse). The only thing I am a little dissapointed about is that South Ferry will not be upgraded to accomodate 10 cars. Am I not taking my own advice?
I'm not sure you will ever see cross-platform transfers to the PATH, as it is at a much lower evelation and the line comes in at a perperndicular to the IRT lines. Someone's got to make a 90 degree turn. However, better transfers between all (PATH, IRT, IND, and BMT) lines are a must.
MATT-2AV
I'm not sure you will ever see cross-platform transfers to the PATH, as it is at a much lower evelation and the line comes in at a perperndicular to the IRT lines. Someone's got to make a 90 degree turn. However, better transfers between all (PATH, IRT, IND, and BMT) lines are a must.
The elevation issue is valid, but while the tubes enter Manhattan east-west, the platforms at the old Hudson Terminal ran north-south between the IRT and BMT ... so you could do upstairs/downstairs if they move one or the other.
Probably better passageways are the realistic solution, but it would be great to make transferring REALLY easy and stack them ... plus, probably cheaper to build a single two-level PATH/IRT station than two separate ones (since both gotta be rebuilt from scratch).
I agree. It would be cheaper to build one station shell instead of two.
Because they are not going to open the Cortlandt Street Station after rebuilding the damaged tunnel segment, perhaps your plan can be put off for now??? I heard the report on 1010WINS this morning, but they weren't specific on how much of the Cortlandt Street station, if any, would be rebuilt. If it will be totally rebuilt in the future, your idea may not be ruled out.
MATT-2AV
Assuming that after the 1/9 rebuild you don't want to shut down any operating lines, then the two "givens" are the 1/9 and the N/R.
What you could do is move the E station to the west (it is at a higher elevation than the 1/9, as is the N/R), and relocate it to the south to allow a single station complex with the E, the N/R, and the 1/9. The PATH is below the whole complex, and could be joined with ramps.
You also could put a pedestrian walkway or use moving walkways to connect that complex with Fulton/Nassau -- allowing a transfer between all lines in Downtown.
I heard from a reliable source and not a kooky railfan, that the TA if toying with the idea of building a new three track South Ferry station along side of the curent one.
When the construction ends, they would tie it in with the curent loop station. The loop station would remain for miscelaneous moves and not demolished. This would address the problem of making South Ferry a 10 car station. There is no way of making the loop station capable of 10 cars. And please, let's put to bed this silly notion of returning the Bowling Green shutle to service. It's dead and buried and let's leave it that way.
Bill "Newkirk"
Would not having the loop slow down service on the line though? I know someone had mentioned that in an earlier post. Although, most terminals are not loop terminals, aside from the 6, so I don't know if that is a real factor.
>>Would not having the loop slow down service on the line though? <<
I don't know, I guess the #1 service would have to be adjusted to reflect a stub end terminal like the rest.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since the SI ferry does not operate at 30 ferries per hour, there is no real need for 30 1/9 trains per hour.
If the loop is preserved, not every train has to stop at SF. If three tracks are built at SF, they would be able to handle maximum thruput of trains. With a 3-track station plus the loop, there would be no problem whatsoever with capacity.
Since the SI ferry does not operate at 30 ferries per hour, there is no real need for 30 1/9 trains per hour.
Oh, come on, Mark! There are other people than simply ferry passengers who use that terminal. And, a SI Ferry carries a helluva lot of people. Could you fit an entire rush-hour ferry onto a single 10-car IRT train?
Not everyone on that ferry will use the 1/9. Some walk to their destination, some use the N/R, some walk to the 5/6 at Bowling Green.
However, it still took two trains to clear out South Ferry after the arrival of an AM rush boat.
According to the 1999 passenger counts, at least five local stations on the 1/9 had more passengers than South Ferry.
Yes, when averaged the SI Ferry throughput isn't awfully large (about 65,000 passengers per day, of which some fraction use the 1/9 (and only half of it at that due to the short platform), some other fraction use the 4/5, some other fraction use the N/R and some other fraction walk to their destination, with possibly a few who take buses or taxis, or stay on to return to SI).
However, ferry usage is highly peaked toward weekday rush (much smaller number of passengers off peak or weekends), and even at rush the boats operate on 15 or 20 minute headways, giving a noticeably "pulsed" distribution of commuters entering lower Manhattan.
And a single Barberi-class boat holds, IIRC, about 7,000 people - more than enough to completely stuff (sardine style) about 3 full 10-car IRT trains. The Kennedy-class holds about 4,500, still enough to fill up 2 10-car IRTs.
Now you've done it! David J. Greenberger is going to start another rant that the 1 needs a minimum of 30tph because he lives at (all together now) THE 55 BUSIEST STATION.
lol....................David, any comment?
Not a minimum of 30 tph. It needs more than the 12 tph it gets now, that's for sure. And it would be nice if the service that's there makes all scheduled stops on a regular basis. Go stand at 42 or 72 in the afternoon rush if you don't believe me.
If my station alone were busy, that would be no big deal. Since all five local stations between 42 and 96 are among the 70 busiest stations, it is a big deal.
Oh, I believe you it just amazes me. Before 9/11, did both the 1 & 9 stop at all those stations? Where did the skip stop end, and both lines start stopping?
Yes, both the 1 and 9 stopped at all those stations. Skip-stops were only made north of 137 St.
I stop at those stations every afternoon and I'm usually right on top of another train, since my leader leaves V.C. 4 min. ahead of me and 3 min. from New Lots.
Then either you're routinely the follower of one of the frequent fallen-way-behind-schedule-so-it's-sent-express trains or the posted schedule unabashedly lies.
You figure it out I just checked my records for the past year and I did the run you complain about exactly TWICE.
Ah, so you must pick up the angry crowds at the express stations after being betrayed by your leader. I'm sure I've been on your train. Look for me about 1.5 car lengths from the south end at 72.
"I heard from a reliable source and not a kooky railfan, that the TA if toying with the idea of building a new three track South Ferry station along side of the curent one."
I think the TA was moving very slowly with he 1/9 lines because it was waiting to see what sort of funding would be made available for the construction of a new line from Chambers St to south ferry and a transportation hub at the WTC when it's rebuilt. Given the age and design of the old line, a new tunnel with new stations would have been the most desirable option.
However, this situation no longer exists. The governor has publicly stated that it will be possible to restore 1/9 service to South Ferry by December 2002. This mandate clearly limits the TA options to one: Repair the damaged tunnels. Open the Rector St. and South Ferry Stations. Bypass the Cortland St. station (completely destroyed) until it can be rebuilt. The TA has its marching orders....
The governor has publicly stated that it will be possible to restore 1/9 service to South Ferry by December 2002. This mandate clearly limits the TA options to one: Repair the damaged tunnels. Open the Rector St. and South Ferry Stations. Bypass the Cortland St. station (completely destroyed) until it can be rebuilt. The TA has its marching orders....
But let us hope & pray that the TA and PA can work together to do something SMART with the Hudson Terminal site, 1/9 Cortlandt station, N/R Cortlandt station and E WTC/Hudson Terminal terminus.
The PA has in fact committed real money to study the situation and come p with a smart plan that includes walkways from the WFC to Broadway, integrated in with the subways and PATH.
That doesn't mean it'll happen, but at least the odds are better than in other cases.
Finally..someone with the intelligence to believe "the greatest good for the greatest number."
If there were ever a no-brainer this is it. The current havoc on the #1/2/3 is solved, the trains go back to their normal terminals, and two of three stations get service back (including South Ferry with its heavy tourist usage).
South Ferry isn't very busy (1999 numbers), and Rector is the least busy station on the line south of 207th Street. See this post.
The real advantage is that locals will have a place to turn in Manhattan, increasing capacity on the line as a whole.
Finally..someone with the intelligence to believe "the greatest good for the greatest number."
Yes, we all know about Bentham and Mill. What they failed to notice is that would justify great evil toward a minority for comparatively small good for the majority. Even Hitler was put there by a majority of sorts (coalition with the DNVP).
What they failed to notice is that would justify great evil toward a minority for comparatively small good for the majority.
Well, as the accused here (or the prior recipient of a completely unexpected compliment), I find it a stretch to declare NOT moving the 1/9 to be a "GREAT evil toward a minority" ....
Finally! A person with the intelligence to see "the greatest good for the greatest number."
Given all circumstances the plan announced today is the best approach and helps far more people than those who might be incovenienced.
Why is there seemingly Dire (not 5) need
to make SF a 10 car station??? The loop
is what makes the station unique.. (Union
Sq. a CLOSE second).... and besides,
135th (?) on the 3 is a 5-car platform...
and I don't recall anything unique about
THAT station... :s
For one thing, it doesn't attract many tourists. The people who use that station (145, not 135) are likely to be aware of its configuration.
And for that, we have our C/R who open the fullwidth
cab door to let tourists access the rear cars of
a 10-car consist... besides, what a jolly pastime
it is to watch tourists scurry towards the
aforementioned full-width cab each time they fail
to "move towards the front" at Rector...
They MUST have built SF this way for a reason...
and if it ain't broke... why fix it?
They built it this way because IRT cars weren't originally as long as they are now. Why do you think most of the other IRT stations have been lengthened?
(Speaking of which -- can I assume I'll see you at Park Place in eight hours for the tour?)
What tour?
Look here. The meeting place has been moved to Park Place by the oculus.
Five cars do not adequately take care of the passenger crush from a rush hour SI ferry.
There is also a plan to incorporate the station itself into the paid area of the SI Ferry terminal itself.
The ferry is free.
Good catch, David...
Thank you!!!
Spend the money where its needed!
There are whole regions of the City, typically outer boroughs, that do not have adequate rapid-transit at all. Why spend over a billion to move the line a block when an underground walkway can accomplish the same. I'm very partial to moving walkways like the type you see in the airports.
MATT-2AV
Once again, the MTA goes for the "quick and cheap" fix.
Once the line is open, forget about improvements.
But at least something will get done. It's better than spending massive amounts of money to relocate the 1/9 in a project that will take many years to complete.
Not to mention the thousands of 2 & 3 riders inconvenienced by the inability to use this line.
Some of us can actually use the 2 now. And it still isn't enough!
The 2's crawl down Manhattan from the Bronx is intolerable. Full express service must be restored. Whether or not the Broadway local has enough service is a seperate issue.
The 2 running local has got to be pure torture for the Bronx passengers. Just imagine you were a passenger getting on at the beginning in the Bronx, and your destination was Brooklyn! At least before, the run through Manhattan was express!
I rode it yesterday. It took 90 minutes to get from Flatbush Ave. to E180th St, and that's with the train skipping Franklin, Canal, Christopher, 18th & 23rd. St stations due to a delay.
The current timetable (which reflects post-September 11 operations) says it should take 65-1/2 minutes (in the AM rush) from Flatbush Avenue to E. 180th Street. Obviously something major happened on the line to cause that train to be approximately 25 minutes late even after being operated express for part of the way.
David
Even if the 2 ran express, it would never get from Flatbush to E180th in 65 minutes. It took exactly one hour to get from Flatbush to 149th St/3rd Ave. pre 9/11.
My mistake...need new eyes or new glasses or something.
A train leaving Flatbush Avenue at 8:30-1/2 AM is scheduled to leave E. 180th Street at 9:49-1/2 AM, which is 79 minutes. Sorry...
David
That's more realistic, but I was still 11 minutes late.
Agreed, but again, something major must have happened to cause even an 11-minute delay even after running express partway to make up some time.
By the way, did the total 90 minutes include the wait for the train at Flatbush Avenue (and, while I'm at it, was I correct in assuming that it was an AM rush trip?).
David
No. I timed it from our leaving time (11:46 AM). We arrived at E180th at exactly 1:15 PM. We moved very slowly from Atlantic Ave to 135th St.
It gets worse! I just realized that my copy of the timetables doesn't contain a weekday timetable for the #2 (I looked at the Saturday without realizing it), nor does it contain any #1 timetables...I'll have to look into that...
David
The December timetables are on the TA web site now. I have the previous set of timetables on my hard drive; if you need a timetable, just ask.
Currently, the 11:46 2 from Flatbush is scheduled to arrive at E180 at 1:05. However, if Chris had transferred to the 4 at Franklin (12:02) and back to the 2 at 149-GC (12:44), he would have ended up one interval -- eight minutes -- ahead (assuming everything was running on-schedule). That's exactly when he would have arrived on the pre-9/11 2.
Some of us don't have the option of transferring twice to save eight minutes. Some of us would be thrilled if our greatest complaint were an extra eight minutes seated on a train.
Actually, I was railfanning and wasn't interested in reaching 180th St. as quickly as possible. If I had, I'd have never used the west side IRT.
So why do you care that the 2 takes eight minutes longer than it did in August?
I think you better check your math. The running time from 241 to Flat (local) is 93 min. minus 12 min. (time from 241-180) 81 min.
I did. I was incorrect. It's 79 minutes for the interval leaving Flatbush Avenue at 8:30-1/2 AM...I also posted it in another part of the thread.
Time for new eyeballs, brain, whatever... :-)
David
12 minutes from 241st to 180th is a very generous assesment. In my travels, I've always allotted 15 minutes for this, and I've usually been right on time.
Some of us are a bit more aggressive.
It is! Better to take the 4 or 5 from the Bronx or Harlem to Brooklyn if you want to get there faster. I'm sure lots of people do that now, making the 4 and 5 even more crowded.
"The 2 running local has got to be pure torture for the Bronx passengers. Just imagine you were a passenger getting on at the beginning in the Bronx, and your destination was Brooklyn! At least before, the run through Manhattan was express!"
Take the 5 and 4!
N Bwy
Even when the 2 ran express, anyone in a rush took the 4/5.
Now the 2 is a local. Anyone in a rush still takes the 4/5.
I personally like the new service on broadway, I think local is much more important that express service
Not when you're from the Bronx. The whole point of the original 4 track design was to speed Bronx riders into midtown & lower Manhattan. Increasing 1/9 service after normal service is restored is a topic worthy of discussion, but service remaining as it is now is definatley not
Probably turnback facilities at 14th Street are the reason why the 2 and not the 3 is running local. I definitely hate the fact that the 2 is running local, but there's really no easy answer to fixing 7th Avenue service until the 1 line tunnel south of Chambers is repaired and ready for service again. When normal service is restored, I would like to see increased service on the 1. Some weekday runs can terminate at 137th Street like they used to in the 80s.
I don't see why they cannot run 24 TPH on the 1/9 during the rush hours and 15 TPH during the midday hours. That would be adequate.
As far as I am aware, there are no operational impediments (absent World Trade Center stuff) to running 24 trains an hour on the #1/#9. The only impediments are the number of cars available (not so much of a concern now with Redbirds in storage, but they won't be there forever) and the number of crews available (which looms as a bigger problem as NYCT heads into financial troubles that it's not being permitted to solve in 2002 via a fare increase).
David
Why isn't the TA seriously considering keeping some of the better Redbirds in service, at least until another car order can be placed?
Crews could, if necessary, be taken off of other lines. Nobody likes a service cut, but right now some lines see much more service per passenger than others.
If this isn't an option, some procedural improvements could be made. For instance, it's common practice (i.e., this happens multiple times nearly every day) for locals that are behind schedule to bypass 50, 66, 79, and 86, and continue as scheduled from there. According to the very numbers you posted, fewer passengers would be impacted[1] if, instead, late locals made all local stops to 137, and then simply turned around -- not to mention that a good deal more time would be saved. (I'm skeptical that bypassing a series of busy local stations saves any time at all, what with the extended dwell times as passengers try to figure out what's going on or how to recover.) In addition, it might make sense to switch an occasional express to the local track to fill in for gaps in local service; while I've seen this done on other lines, I don't think I've ever seen it done on the 1/2/3.
[1]I'm fudging slightly. For one thing, your numbers don't include 168, but I suspect that most of the passengers boarding the 1 there are going north, so they're already counted once in the 137-242 range. For another, I'm ignoring the passengers waiting to board southbound trains; a train that turns at 137 isn't serving passengers north of that point in either direction, while a train that skips a few stops northbound can still make them southbound when the time comes. However, when northbound delays are most common, there are many more northbound than southbound passengers. Even if the passenger counts don't quite work in favor of my argument, they're close, and the dramatic difference in time savings should push this over the edge.
I would argue that the primary point of a four-track line is that it has twice the capacity of a two-track line. The faster service for some is a bonus.
As for the line in question -- I agree that 2 and 3 service should return to their pre-9/11 status, but, really, the 2 local only takes eight minutes longer than the 2 express, and the 3 is still available part of the way. I know it seems like more, but locals aren't as slow as they seem.
It's easy to sit here and throw rocks at MTA over this. MTA's plan makes eminent sense when you consider:
1) There is no service at all now.
2) There is insurance and FEMA money available to get service back, so no additional MTA money need be spent right now. That's very cost-effective.
3) Immediate improvements to be installed now include elevators, so riders are getting something. If these stations are brought up to ADA standards, all riders will benefit - esp. at South Ferry.
4) Redevelopment of the WTC site will bring additional improvements.
Service stinks on the 7th Av line now, compared to before Sept. 11, because of the service outage. Getting some service up soon is a very smart move, and it shows responsiveness to ridership concerns.
I agree with what you say. However, based on the politics, once a partial solution is in place, we will never see a full solution.
Rerouting the 1/9 to the west is not necessary. Rebuilding South Ferry as a 10 car platform terminal is necessary.
I don't agree with your pessimism. If I'm reading this correctly, South Ferry will be part of the first-phase rebuild, and so will an ADA upgrade to the other remaining station. That's pretty good. When additional rebuilding money comes for WTC redevelopment, the South Ferry line may see a third station added.
Now let's see if we can get PATH back ahead of schedule.
If I'm reading this correctly, South Ferry will be part of the first-phase rebuild, and so will an ADA upgrade to the other remaining station.
Ummmm ... disagree ... my take on the Times and Daily News pieces is that the line goes back into service, minus Cortlandt which is entirely removed, plus elevators at S Ferry and Greenwich.
I *hope* you're right, however!
"Ummmm ... disagree ... my take on the Times and Daily News pieces is that the line goes back into service, minus Cortlandt
which is entirely removed, plus elevators at S Ferry and Greenwich."
There's nothing for you to disagree about. Installing elevators substantially complies with ADA. The rest of ADA involves stairs, tactile strips and lighting - well, since they're going to have to do some of that anyway, they're making the stations substantially compliant.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I read your message to mean that conversion of S Ferry from its current 5-car loop to a 10-car terminus was part of the first phase. THAT's the part I was disagreeing with. You're right on about elevators being the bulk of ADA compliance.
I am hoping the new platforms will be part of it, too. I guess it depends on the rate of cash burn.
Is there any reason, at least off peak, that the 1 train can't open all 10 cars, first the front, then the back? I know a new stop marker would have to be purchased and installed 275 feet up the tunnel, but how much would that cost?
I still don't see why it's absolutely impossible for the platform to be extended. (Before anyone suggests otherwise, the 10-car marker for the switch comes before the platform begins. That means there's room for at least a platform and a half.)
Well, at this point, it's been said that it is illegal to use any federal disaster relief funds to build anything other than an exact replica of what was destroyed. Makes no sense to me, but there it is. I was just thinking that while we wait for them to find the money to lengthen the platform, they might be able to swing the cost of a new 10-car marker.
As best as I understand it, 'exact replica' is a poor choice of words. Replacement structures are done according to modern engineering standards, using modern materials, meeting modern health and safety codes. And relocation/realignment is permitted. You don't rebuild a 50 year old disastered-out bridge according to 1952 standards; nor are you required to put the replacement on the same exact alignment. The same applies to 100 year old IRT tunnels and stations. But there is Federal oversight of what the money does eventually get spent on.
A Daily News article, available here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-04/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-137166.asp
...seems to indicate that some sort of replacement station for Cortlandt Street will depend upon what is built on the WTC site. It also cites MTA "sources" who say that a rebuild/reconfiguration of South Ferry to accommodate full-length trains is being planned...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-04/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-137166.asp
I hope the final plan for a new Cortlandt St. station includes a third track, a la Whitehall St. Since it seems they really are going to redo South Ferry as a straight-on 10-car station (with direct access to the Joralemon tube), the ability to turn back trains earlier ensures the maximum tph.
I doubt it because that would mean that they have to widen the existing tunnel at Cortlandt St. I think they will take the path of less resistance and keep it at 2 tracks.
It will be interesting to see the extension of the SF station. Can they do it w/o too much excavation at street level.
I think they will take the path of less resistance and keep it at 2 tracks.
Agreed ... and my bet is they do it as simply as possible at minimum cost (for the former Cortlandt station area) since that line *could* be reconfigured later as part of a wider-ranging transit complex.
It will be interesting to see the extension of the SF station. Can they do it w/o too much excavation at street level.
The Daily News doesn't say they're doing S Ferry as part of the rebuild. It says they'd "like to" ... which means, as the Times points out, that it'll go into the queue of projects they'd like to do. And probably not much higher up the queue either.
"The Daily News doesn't say they're doing S Ferry as part of the rebuild. It says they'd "like to" ... which means, as the Times
points out, that it'll go into the queue of projects they'd like to do. And probably not much higher up the queue either."
There's more than enough money in the stated budget ($850 million) - which is insurance and FEMA money, not MTA money - to get a South Ferry station reconstruction done. It may or may not be fully done by the time service opens (passengers might alight onto a South Ferry platform with lots of boarded-up areas).
There's more than enough money in the stated budget ($850 million) - which is insurance and FEMA money, not MTA money - to get a South Ferry station reconstruction done. It may or may not be fully done by the time service opens (passengers might alight onto a South Ferry platform with lots of boarded-up areas).
Dunno ... there's hardly any space to spare on the platform.
If they're going to do this, now would be a good time, while the area is torn up for the Whitehall Ferry Terminal reconstruction.
Article by Randy Kennedy in the Times
Point your browsers at (NY Times article):
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/04/nyregion/04SUBW.html
Well, that's a relief to hear!! tony
Just heard on 1010 WINS that TA plans to rebuild the tunnel and have the 1/9 line open by next fall.
I just heard from CNN that it will resume service by Dec. 2002.
Delayed already????
Delayed? It's better than the 3-4 years of the original estimate.
Well, between 1010WINS and CNN I don't know which to choose from since both are very reliable news sources. I think depending on the time that the news was given might be an affect.
But hey, at first we thought they weren't going to finish until a few years from now, and Dec. 2002, is still a reasonable time to open.
I don't know about the "Cortlandt St. WORLD TRADE CENTER" signs, if the T/A is going to use them or throw them out or hold them to use later on for the new WTC.
Any ideas on this?
I doubt they would reuse the old signs in a brand new station. They wouldn't throw them out either, they are probably worth money now. I don't understand why they don't sell any of the old signs. I'm sure people would buy them. And as for WTC, even nonrailfans would buy them.
I suspect some vultures have been there before us.
I hope they save some of those crumpled I-beams, and use them as a design element in the new station: lest we forget.
Please accept my apologies if this has been proposed already and I've missed it.
* Construct 2 crossovers just west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn to allow the G to come from Queens and cross over onto the A/C track. Then the G runs the current C route to 168th in Manhattan.
* Call half of all E trains "C" instead. The new C comes in from Parsons/Archer and doesn't terminate at Canal or Chambers. Instead, it continues through to Euclid Ave just like the current C does.
* Extend the V from 2nd Ave to Church Ave Brooklyn as a local. Run the F as an express on the Culver line.
Benefits:
* 15 or so more tph from Jay St/Boro Hall into Manhattan.
* Culver Line gets its express, plus a local that goes where people want it to, namely Manhattan.
* Direct G service into Manhattan.
* More trains at Essex and at Fulton St for J/M/Z riders who need to head to midtown.
Costs (a bit of construction, more rolling stock, a few more crews) are low relative to the benefits. I don't know how to reallocate rolling stock or crews, but here's essentially what added amounts are needed.
* G trains now have to be 450' or 480' long (not 300') for the whole distance from Queens to Chambers, a slightly longer route than to Smith/9th. The rest of the rolling stock can be recovered from the former C route in Manhattan. Also, no more OPTO.
* C trains have to be full length (I forget whether they're running 8 cars at the moment) from Chambers to Euclid.
* V trains need crews and rolling stock for the extension to Brooklyn.
* Need to construct crossovers west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
* Need to fix the Bergen St tower and make the lower level of Bergen St usable if not pretty.
Inconveniences:
* The Rutgers (and especially Fulton) tunnels operate at nearer to 100% capacity, meaning more careful control is required and higher risk of everything falling to pieces.
* People at the local stations on the Culver line have slightly fewer trains.
* People traveling between stations on the Culver Line and stations on the current G and Fulton lines have a more difficult trip. A larger percentage of this group (which is far less than the Manhattan-bound traffic) will have to cross over to change trains at Jay/Boro Hall.
You are cutting service on the Fulton St. B'lyn line.
How is that? There are 7 C trains per hour from Euclid in the morning rush. That can still be maintained. The A train service would be unchanged.
I was one of many passengers held up in Atlanta by the recent snowstorm. I took advantage of the delay to go joyriding on MARTA, and got in a few rare shots of MARTA in the snow. Also, I'm happy to say I've now ridden the entire system. The snowy scenery was great, if terribly incovenient to millions of people.
Also, I noticed a spur under construction on the north orange line between Arts Center and Lindbergh stations. What is this for? Is it some sort of service siding? I wasn't aware of any new lines being built. If anyone knows what this is, please fill me in.
Mark
The spur your talking about was for a proposed Northwest line to run north along the I-75 corridor linking up cobb county with MARTA. It was built with the original system but alas, Cobb County didn't want MARTA and the extension was never realized. I would bet though in about ten years that spur will be in use as Cobb County is planning two circulator systems around the northern communities of Cumberland and Town Center. They are planning to connect these two segments and tie them into a downtown link. This unused spur would make the most sense but Georgia politics can be notorious for succumbing to the powers that be when it comes to public transportation.
Georgia politics can be notorious for succumbing to the powers that be when it comes to public transportation.
Had heard, and I dunno if it's true, that Atlanta transit planners succumbed to a wish by white suburbs to stay utterly free of rail transit connecting to nonwhite areas despite some utterly bizarre routings that resulted. That would likely be 20+ years ago now.
Any Atlantans care to comment?
I've heard the same thing from an associate who used to work closely with SOU. They were doing some work extending MARTA northwards to some mall or something, and apparently the mall owners opposed because it will bring the "scum downtown" up to their posh shopping strip. I don't know whatever happened with that project but he wasn't working with the MARTA peolpe when the line was fnially built.
This spur looked pretty new, actually. It didn't look like it could be 20 years old.
Mark
there are a couple of issues here.
in order to have marta, a 1% sales tax had to be voted in. it was not approved in some of the northern counties such as cobb and gwinnett. was it not voted in for racial reasons or because the counties did not want the city of atlanta controlling things? i don't know, but given that both counties run their own services to atlanta [bus] suggests that, if it was racial back in the mid seventies, that may not be the case now.
some of the wierd routings are pure and simple politics. for example, there is no station at turner field. instead, the north-south line actually veers away from the stadium to serve a low income housing project and then it veers back to the original route [thus leaving the stadium with no close train service]. it was a political give up to get support for the sales tax referendum.
the east-west line has a spur just west of town that goes for one stop to serve another low income housing area. another political compromise. this shuttle got very little ridership in its early years, so what did marta do to save face? they terminated a number of bus lines there that formerly terminated in downtown. now, folks that want to travel downtown and who live on those bus lines, have to make a change to the train. if they get a shuttle [may not still exist], then they take it one stop and connect to another train. probably double their trip time.
atlanta is not as evolved politically as some other large cities, so it is going through the corruption and mismanagement that other cities have already evolved through. not that the later stages of evolution are any better - they are just not as obvious. having said that, it is still a pretty good place to live regardless of race or income compared to some other big cities.
I never will forget when i lived there ....
( thank god i moved away )
The city of East Point fought against a marta station ...........then ....
Rang it in with a BIG CLEBRATION..big time when it opened back in about 1986 or so when i lived in that humid ass piss bucket!! ( atlanta ) ....lol!!
please tell us how you really feel.
he he he he .................lol !!
in order to have marta, a 1% sales tax had to be voted in. it was not approved in some of the northern counties such as cobb and gwinnett. was it not voted in for racial reasons or because the counties did not want the city of atlanta controlling things? i don't know, but given that both counties run their own services to atlanta [bus] suggests that, if it was racial back in the mid seventies, that may not be the case now.
Until just a few years ago, Cobb County was the most populous county in the United States that had no public transportation whatsoever. That bus service is VERY new.
And yes, race is a big factor.
-- Tim
Actually Cobb has had bus service for over 10 years, you are thinking of Gwinnett, which started 6 express rush hour routes to downtown in October. Local service starts this year. From what I observed from the street, it's quite popular.
I don't think I'm thinking of Gwinnett, but I'll take your word for it.
I may be confusing Cobb and Gwinnett because of all the homophobic crap Cobb tried to pull during the 1990s.
However, I heard a few years ago, i.e. not this year, that one of the suburban counties north of Atlanta had just started its first bus service.
Or am I dreaming? That possibility should NEVER be discounted. ;-)
-- Tim
No bus service was started during the 90s, in 2001, three were started.
I think back in 96, Cobb said they didn't want gay people, which grew out of some gay play being performed. I think they later retracted it (at least I hope so).
that was one county commissioner shooting off his mouth. iirc, the others and the county quickly disassociated themselves from him.
kennesaw is also located in cobb county. that's the city that requires every house to have a working firearm [although it is not enforced].
i see a bunch of people waiting for the gwinett bus each day... I do not understand why there is so much room in the front with no seats... to me it looks like max 30 people could sit... not sure I would want to stand on a bus for 90 mins...
gwinnett & cobb county did not want marta rail....or buses either !!!
THE-BIGOTS !!
The spur underground nearest arts center is/was for the northside drive line. The spur nearer Lindburgh is probably for the Lindburgh yard.
I wish I knew you were in town, we could have railfanned. I had the day off Thursday and I rode out to Avondale for the hell of it. I REALLY wish I had my camera that day, because I was at King Memorial and looking Eastbound, the elevated tracks just disapeared into the snow and the Bankhead train was relaying over there, it looked very cool.
That spur you saw are the future yard leads to new new rail yard that is being built where all that dirt is. I plan on taking pictures of the construction in about a month.
Let me know if you are going to be in town anytime if you want to railfan.
Thanks, Rob. A new yard was my first guess, even though I was hoping for a new line to ride. I'll keep you posted on my Atlanta railfanning plans.
Mark
I was hoping for a new line to ride
Oh how I wish we had something new to ride. There is only so much you can do on 49 miles route miles. It can get boring. I usually just spend my time watching the crowds if I railfan. Probably in about 15 years, you'll see a seprate light rail system and commuter rail to ride.
Where is that light rail line supposed to run?
Mark
Northwest to Cobb county from Arts Center. I believe about 25 miles total length. People actually want this line to be built, so it has been fast tracked. The first leg should open in 2010. 70,000 people a day are projected for it. MARTA was originally going to do this, and the bellmouths are in place for it north of Arts Center, but it never happened.
Will it share the Arts Center station with the heavy lines?
Mark
I'm not sure of its exact alginment, but it will not share platforms or tracks with MARTA. It will be a seprate system. My guess is that it will run above ground perpindicular to the N/S line. Don't know who will operate it yet.
I figured it wouldn't share tracks. I was just wondering if transfering would be a simple matter, like transferring between lines at Five Points.
Mark
Transferring between lines at five points is simple unless you are trying to get from center platform to center platform. That can be tricky unless you know exactly where you are.
There isn't a center platform to center platform way. It's always from center to side. But the center platforms are a little confusing.
Does anyone know if there is a 3D track map of how the X line (N/S to E/W link) is set up within the five points building. Always wondered how they squeeze between the 2 levels in such a short distance.
I wish I knew where one was. I don't have a clue how it is done.
Where is this el?
I got this from a 1991 episode of Seinfeld (the one where George thinks he has a heart attack), it seems like really old stock footage (check out the cars) and the el might not exist anymore.
I could be wrong, but I think that looks like Upper Manhattan. Perhaps it's under the (1) somewhere?
:-) Andrew
The 1 line has a middle track. It looks like a really old el. Perhaps the Third Avenue El in the Bronx? Perhaps it isn't even in NY?
That's a '77-'79 Thunderbird in the first picture. I don't think anything has been demolished since then except the Jamaica El, which it isn't.
What about the Fulton Street section of the Broadway-Jamaica El, does it look like that?
Could it be in another city? I don't know about Chicago, but it couldn't be Philadelphia because there the El has a roadbed. Could it be the Washington St. El in Boston that was closed in 1987?
That's a '77-'79 Thunderbird in the first picture. I don't think anything has been demolished since then except the Jamaica El, which it isn't.
The blue car just to the left of the ambulance in the second picture seems to be early to middle 1970's vintage. It looks like a Buick or Pontiac. Whatever the model, the presence of two older vehicles probably means that the footage was filmed some years before the episode's 1991 air date. That would be consistent with the Boston el, demolished in 1987, that our porcine pal suggested elsewhere on the thread.
The ambulance itself looks to be built on a Ford F-series pickup body, of a style that's been around since the early 1980's.
One more thing - the row of apartment buildings in the first picture, running perpendicular to the street on which the el runs, somehow don't look very New York-ish to me.
The evidence pointing it back to New York is the ambulance looks like a NYC ambulance, before the fire dept took over EMS, when they were still orange. But then again, if it was NY someone on the board would've recognized the el.
Since its now settled as Boston. I guess I was wrong about the ambulance. But the cast better watch out. The last time they were in Massachussets they got locked up for not helping a robbery victim.
If I recall correctly, the city ambulance service in NY was originally the NYPD Emergency Medical Service Division. Then, in 1972 or so (somebody please correct the date) it became NYC EMS.
IIRC the NYPD Emergency Medical Division was for disasters and major emergencies rather than for transporting of ill citizens to hospitals. I seem to remember that each hospital had its own fleet of ambulances.
I could be wrong but perhaps the city took over the function in order to centralize the dispatching and to indirectly subsidize all the hospitals by purchasing & maintaining the ambulances.
I recall seeing photos of NYC ambulances with the NYPD logo and the words Emergency Medical Services Division on their sides.
Last I checked, an NYC ambulance could be driven to Boston.
It does look like upper manhattan, but the missing middle track means it can't be the 1.
My first thought was the IRT New Lots line in Brooklyn.
Could this be the Jamaica El? The show's producers wouldn't necessarily care that the neighborhood seen on camera isn't exactly what the dialogue says it is.
Definitely the Washington St el in Boston. The shot is of the square where the building they used as the hospital for St Elsewhere, another NBC show, was. I believe it was actually a former hotel.
I think we have a winner! Check out these photos of the Orange Line at Thompson Square.
Absolutley no way it's any section of the Jamaica El.
"Absolutley no way it's any section of the Jamaica El"
Not disputing you as I have no clue, but what is it that makes that so obvious? This discussion has gotten me a bit interested in the variety of el structures.
CG
1. No steelwork of this type is found anywhere on the J line. It's a lot more "box-like"
2. The Jamaica line does not run over any street this wide.
I wonder if its the elevated portion of the LIRR on Atlantic Avenue?
I don't think the LIRR El is, or was, open in the middle like that. Besides, the El in the picture looks too flimsy for a line that once handled steam engines and freight.
The structure looks like the part of the Culver Line that you can see from the Belt Parkway.
It isn't the Culver line. It isn't any NYC subway elevated.
I suspect it's not in New York. Note that in the first picture there's what appears to be some sort of park on the right side with globe-style light fixtures on poles. Those don't seem to be NYC Parks issue.
Those definitely aren't standard NYC park luminaires, but it could be a private courtyard. Unfortunately, I don't know my girder styles, but I was thinking Culver between Ave X and West 8 St. Then again, it appears the ambulance has a blue license plate in the rear...
It can't be the Culver El because the surrounding buildings look nothing like what one would find along Shell Road. In addition, the Culver El's cross-supporting beams aren't arched the way they are in the picture.
Now, did Massachussets or Illinois have blue license plates in the 1970s and 1980s?
Now, did Massachussets or Illinois have blue license plates in the 1970s and 1980s?
Massachusetts did/does not. I'm not as sure about Illinois, but I believe the answer's also no. Two things to keep in mind, however:
1) Ambulances may have special plates with different color schemes.
2) I'm not entirely sure that the plate in the second picture actually is blue; it might be a shadow.
Why does that remind me of the elevated LIRR structure along Atlantic Ave? It doesn't appear to look like Chicago-style els, and only Boston has similar elevated stretches.
It does have some similarities to the LIRR el on Atlantic, but it's not the same.
Then it's not in NYC, because I'm totally lost as to what else it could be.
Then it's not in NYC, because I'm totally lost as to what else it could be.
As noted elsewhere in the thread, it's the now-demolished Washington Street el in Boston.
It looks to me that it is either the IRT New Lots line somewhere on Livonia Ave. Or the LIRR elevated tracks on Atlantic Ave.
Considering Seinfeld and friends live on the Upper East Side, I don't think EMS would take them through such a different neighborhood. Wherever this picture was taken.
It looks to me that it is either the IRT New Lots line somewhere on Livonia Ave. Or the LIRR elevated tracks on Atlantic Ave.
Considering Seinfeld and friends live on the Upper East Side, I don't think EMS would take them through such a different neighborhood. Wherever this picture was taken.
I would highly doubt that the show's producers were concerned with any sort of geographical accuracy. They probably used whatever stock footage of an ambulance was most readily available. The fact that an el was visible was probably just happenstance.
Seinfeld lived on the upper west side....W 81st, to be exact
129 West 81st Street apartment 5A to be even more exact.
Wow, you know your sitcoms. I only can remember that Lucy lived on East 68th Street (623?) I know if it was a real address it would be in the East River. Of course Archie lived at 704 Hauser Street, but that's totally fictional.
I know my Seinfeld. But I do remember things when I see them. I j
I know my Seinfeld. But I do remember things when I see them. I only remember that and from a different show: 742 Evergreen Terrace.
What about 1164 Morning Glory Circle.....Bewitched. They lived in a suburb of New York, because Darrin took the train to work. I don't know what area or line though.
I don't think they ever said anything about where the Stephens' lived or worked.
Did not Darrin work on Madison Avenue? He definitely worked in advertising.
The cars in the show had New York plates.
For sure he was in advertising. But from what I remember there weren't that many references to a specific location. Maybe I heard wrong.
Yes he did work on Madison in new York. He took the train many times to work. I don't know which train line it would have been though.
At the time it probably would have been New York Central. Today probably Metro North.
I think it was once stated that they lived in Westport, Connecticut. Darrin definitely worked in NYC.
Darrin was a weenie. Samantha should have turned him into a toad by the second episode.
:-) Andrew
I think Lucy also moved to Westport, CT, because there was a episode that took place at the "Westport" train station (obviosly in Hollywood on a stage).
I think Lucy also moved to Westport, CT, because there was a episode that took place at the "Westport" train station (obviosly in Hollywood on a stage).
Dunno ... the "Connecticut" location seemed rather rural as opposed to suburban. But then again, parts of Westport probably were quite rural in the 1950's.
What exactly did the train station scene involve? It would be rather unlikely for a nightclub owner like Ricky to have commuted by train into Manhattan, given the strange hours a job of that sort would have entailed.
It is when they first moved to Westport. Both the Metzes and the Richardos were bored, so the decided to go see each other, so Lucy and Ricky got to the Westport station just as the Mertzes arrived, and they missed each other - basically passed in the station. So of course Fred was mad that he paid for train tickets for nothing, and the rest is classic Lucy. I don't remember the episode exactly, but it was something like that. It's a while since I'd seen it.
And here's another one I remember:
Bundy
9764 Jeopardy Drive
Bundy as in Married...With Children?
Based on the opening scenes on the show, they lived in the Chicago area.
Rob Petrie lived on Bonnie Meadow Road or Drive in New Rochelle, IIRC.
I wonder if Flanders lives at 740 or 744 Evergreen Terrace???
If this is New York footage, then the only possible location would be Livonia Ave. on the New Lots line.
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2959&Y=22508&Z=18&W=2
This is the only current or past el that runs past a park. The New Lots line portal off E Pkwy is considerably less likely. I confess that I've NEVER been in these neighborhoods.
But when you look at the Terraserver picture, it does not look right.
It would be nice if we had a clearer picture of the ambulance, at least so we could read the writing. The license plates would also be informative.
> It would be nice if we had a clearer picture of the ambulance, at
> least so we could read the writing. The license plates would also
> be informative.
What difference would this make? These are stills from a TV show. I could put California plates on a New York ambulance and drive it under an el structure. Doesn't mean it was filmed in California!
Newlots El was built to Dual Contract Standards, BOX girder. This is NOT Newlots!
avid
It's unlike any el I've ever seen in NYC, and I cannot think of any el line like it in NYC, given the obvious dating of the picture to a time no earlier to the late 1970's. If it's an NYC structure, my only guess is the LIRR over Atlantic Ave.
Atlantic Avenue is much wider, And its columns are over malls that separate a two-lane inner roadway (used for turning) from the main roads which are on the sides. In addition, there is no space between tracks on the Atlantic Avenue El. We've already settled it on Boston.
I would guess that this is an el section in Boston. Unsure which one and/or location. Not a NYC el. Pre dual contracts els did not have these types of stringers and girders. Post dual contracts rebuilds and new els would have had upgraded features.
Market Frankford El with the concrete roadbed? (Note lack of sunlight from between the ties.
Phil Hom
I can tell you right now that that is NOT the MFL.
Thanks Mike. I never been under the el.
It's the Main Line Elevated in Boston near the Northampton St Station.
This would have been the old Orange Line, right? The one passing nearby the building that represented St. Eligius Hospital on the TV series "St. Elsewhere" in the mid '80s.
It kinda looks like the jerome av el in the bronx, up near Kingsbridge. Or am i totally off?
But this el has no third track, the Jerome El does.
What I can tell you is that the el is NOT in NYC whatsoever. Stephen Bauman's Boston explanation seems to be the most feasible.
I'd have to see those pics again. I still think it's either the IRT somewhere on Livonia or the LIRR elevated on Atlantic.
It`s Definitely not LIRR on Atlantic Ave. The outer roadways have three lanes of traffic, and the columns haven`t had stripes in years.
I thought we already discussed that many times. Why don't people at least look at some responses before making their own?
Looked like trick photography. They can do that kind of stuff in the control room.
How's this for a match?
View of elevated Mainline structure - looking South - along Washington Street and across Blackstone Park.
From the Library of Congress Website
Mystery solved.
That structure sure looks fragile. I'd like to see the rolling stock which used it.
>>> That structure sure looks fragile <<<
Not really fragile but well engineered. The load bearing pillars are directly below the road beds, the girders under the roadbeds spread the load and provide longitudinal stability, while the cross members provide lateral stability. Strength with economy of materials.
Tom
The last generation of rolling stock to use that el is still in service on the MBTA Orange Line.
Check out www.nycsubway.org > American Transit Systems > Boston, Massachusetts > The Orange Line
-- David
Chicago, IL
A pannel appainted by the govornor is moving forward with plans for a new commuter rail line between Athens and Atlanta.
"It's going to happen. It's just a matter of when," said E.H. Culpepper, vice chairman of the Georgia Rail Passenger Authority, a group that works with the Program Management Team on transit issues. "One of the real challenges we have is that, we've been talking about it since '86. ... There is a certain amount of skepticism in people's minds about whether it's gonna happen."
Local residents have been demanding rail alternatives since the mid 1980's and the pannel is currently negioating w/ CSX to lease part of the Abbeville Subdivision, along Georgia Highway 8, which runs roughly parallel to Georgia Route 316.
In connection with an Athens-to-Atlanta line, Georgia Rail Consultants suggest a fee of $10.10 for a one-way trip from Athens to a midtown Atlanta station. The consultants said an Athens-Atlanta commuter rail system would cost $378 million to build and have an annual operating cost of around $16.8 million. From an economic standpoint, Culpepper feels a rail system would help spawn biotechnology business growth along Georgia Highway 316 due to the corridor's location between Athens and Atlanta and proximity to major research institutions like the University of Georgia, Emory University and Georgia Tech.
Why Athens, such a small town. Why not Macon or Columbus, much more metropolitan areas than Athens.
Because NEW YORK, which is in need of a bit of work, can BLOW Georgia as far as funds go ... nice stuff, eh? don't mind me, I'm really honked off about having to pay for rebuilding the former smoking crater of the IRT rather than SHRUB coughing up some cash for US taking a punch in the face for texas ... in order to do it properly. Hell, we don't even get Cortlandt street back, the bastards. meanwhile, let's throw some mad money to ENRON execs. Yeah, that's a recovery ...
My apologies to all who don't understand WHY I'm cranked. Paturkey is going to do "budget school" and presentation of the state budget in a few more days. I have friends in DOB (Division of the Budget) and media and the rest will see the screwjob we're about to get thanks to the morons in DC in a few more days. Bend over, here comes Dick Armey doing something that would have made Jim and Tammy blush ... New York gets to absorb the ENTIRE cost. Meanwhile, the Pentagon's almost finished with ITS repairs ...
Sure hope the terrorists pick another spot next time, they've WON here ...
I think your very right, the right wing nut jobs down south like nothing better than to screw NY. I fully believe you that we will see very little of the money "promised" by Bush. They were backtracking on that promise as soon as it was made. I guess they need to bail out some more bloated corporations. And don't forget the airline bail out (but AMTRACK is "inefficient")
Go figure
Hate to sound like a "liberal" to some misguideds, but I'm DAMN conservative with my cash. Get so little, you GOTTA conserve it! Hell, I live UPSTATE ... I don't mind paying for NYC as long as everybody else does - it's not like it's a damned "welfare check" ... had we had a government, NYC would still have it's 11's on the shore ... but instead the foggy bottom boys handed out a tax cut and cut INS, and all other agencies that could have stopped this since 1993 ... time to reclaim the taxcut.
The PENTAGON'S NEARLY REBUILT. I still don't see no WTC1 or 2 yet. Does anyone else? Hell, can't even catch a subway train but yet Texas is getting all sorts of shiny new fed toys as are 40 other states. Meanwhile we've gotten WHAT? Anybody?
TIHS KCAJ, from what I've heard. That's TERRIBLE that NYC is not getting the money they deserve. How can America's busiest city survive without the proper funding?
-F.
We need to identify certain corporations who (1) gives money to Texas Republicans and (2) does serious business in the NYC area. BOYCOTT!
A nice greasey one in the rear, is about all we've gotten.
The headlines should read "BUSH TO NYC: DROP DEAD".
what did he promise? 40 billion? how many does bloomberg say we're in the hole? a few billion at least?
that raises a whoe other isssue though: people actually be surprised that bloomberg has made light of the fact so quickly that the city is short on cash. it's no surprise to me that ghooliani pushed this under the rug.
I think you have it backwards. NYC pays for upstate NY. By far the most tax revenue in the state of NY is generated in NYC. On the national side NYC gets far less back then it pays in to the natioal government. That is whay I find it so pecular that the federal government is so cheap when funding projects in NYC.
When the federal govenment gives out transportation money it tries to divide the $$$ evenly between competing projects. That is grosly unfair becasue atlatlant pays far few $$ into the gederal gov than NYC
The 16th Amendment is the cause of this. Basically, the federal government gets to steal money made in the states, forcing them to beg for money made locally. I don't have a problem with income taxes, I have a problem with federal agencies collecting them.
New York State pays the lowest per capita in federal tax because state income tax is deductible and you know how high that is in New York, especially combined with the city income tax.
States with low local taxes pay the highest per capita fed tax.
Well, we got a new fire truck - oh wait, that was donated by a governor from another state!
NYC deserves all the money - and more - that it was promised. After all, NYC wasn't attacked because it was NYC, it was attacked for being America!
If this was Texas, we would have plenty of money. Of course, if this was Texas I wouldn't be living here. (No offense to any Texans on the board.) The Texas motto: "Don't mess with Texas!" Congress' motto for NYC: "Yeah, you can mess with New York a bit, it can survive on its own."
Since this is SubTalk, anyone know what the scheduled finish dates are for Airtrain? I know Howard Beach is supposed to be finished this year, and Jamaica the next, does anyone know if it is still on schedule after the attacks? I have check the PA website, and it is vague as to the exact finish dates.
JR
AirTrain lost one day of construction, total.
The Howard Beach leg should be ready by late '02- November or so. The Jamaica leg should be ready by Spring of '03, even if Jamaica Station's total rehab isn't done by then.
Thanks Ron.
That's great! I'm really looking forward to the Jamaica connection. I'm glad to hear that it we only be a matter of months between the two legs being completed.
I only hope that we hear, "Next stop, LaGuardia Airport" soon. It all seems so easy...
I live in Austin, Texas. One thing I can tell you is that Texas sends mostly conservative low tax, low spending Republicans to congress. If you would like to hear an example of that yourself, you can listen to the weekly message from Representative Ron Paul (R, Houston) at
888-322-1414. Ron Paul ran for President in 1988 in the Libertarian Party (of which I belong).
(One thing I can tell you is that Texas sends mostly conservative low tax, low spending Republicans to congress.)
"Low Spending" of a type. Check out the Northeast-Midwest institute to see which states get more out of the federal government than they put in -- they often have a colored map. Then look at the states that went for Bush in 2000. They are just about the SAME MAP! States that elect Republicans get most of the money. It's the same at the NY state level -- areas that vote Democratic pay more in, while those that vote Republican get more out.
What does this mean?
It shows the Republican dillemma. They gained power when "big goverment" was a code word for spending money on Blacks, Latinos, Immigrants, the Poor, and people living in cities. So in the early 1990s, they drastically cut spending on such people. But when some "true believers" kept talking about small government, the elderly, rural people, and the suburbs -- who get most of the money -- got nervous. Bye, bye Newt.
The Democrats have no such dillemma. They are the party of people who rely on government funding, so they are not about to call for less spending on Republicans. And they are not to worried about selling out those who vote for them no matter what, so they do in order to gain votes in places like Chappaqua.
Bring back Newt. Or McGovern. Anything but this.
Four words: The University of Georgia.
-- Tim
Because Sparta is boring and bland.
There's A LOT of traffic along the highway between Athens and Atlanta.
...a one-way trip from Athens to a midtown Atlanta station...
Is the Amtrak station in Atlanta a historical railroad station (one used by major RR's pre-Amtrak, or a Union Station)? If not, what happened to Atlanta's historical station(s) (Southern RR? Seaboard Line? I don't know...)?
I've used Atlanta's Amtrack station a couple of times. Why is it so far from the center of town?
Atlanta's Amtrak station was a purpose-built structure like the Cleveland Waterfront station.
The original Atlanta station was right downtown by Spring St. A platform is still there (or was in SOU days) for boarding of SOU's business specials. The actual Union Station itself was built over with some business development. With that move, Atlanta said good-bye to any comuter or nitercity rail. I have no sympathy for Atlanta on that one.
The actual Union Station itself was built over with some business development.
Typical for Atlanta. I once heard the horrifying statistic that there are only FOUR pre-1900 buildings within the Atlanta city limits. Even given that much of the city was torched in the Civil War ("War of Northern Aggression" to some, as THIS Yankee was astounded to find out!), that's a pathetically low number.
In my own personal hell, Atlanta native John Portman (architect of many hideous anti-urban megastructures including Times Square's own Marriott Marquis) will Suffer Bad Things for a Long Time!
Remember that railroad "gulch" you saw downtown? That's where the station will go. If ever.
Yea I worked under the amtrak station ( freeway construction ) jasper-construction-company, 1983-1987.... saw the base post for the marta sandy springs branch off when it was first built.
But my question was always why there was no DIRECT connection to the north avenue marta rail station you have to catch the 22 bus to transfer to the amtrak station there !!
( made no sense to me )
In case anyone noticed, Amtrak's Silver Palm hit the trailer part of a tractor trailer that had been left on the tracks in Bushnell, Florida. The truck was loaded with $60,000 worth of bread loaves and aside from an explosion of bread all over the scene nobody was really hurt and there was minimal damage. Apparently the driver just walking away from his rig on the tracks w/o telling anyone.
Maybe a few months on bread and water in a cell would be appropriate for this asshole.
Sounds like he was attempting to kill US employee and using his truck as a weapon to disrupt Interstate Commerce.
He probably figured, "I have at yeast a few minutes. I'll just loaf around and wheat here for a bit."
D'you have the unit numbers? I'm interested to see whether these Genesises that are damaged like this (they must go through at least ten a year) ever make their way back to service.
As Mike noted, there was minimal damage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is it true that the driver was related to the late subway surfer from the Bronx?
The 8:45 Am Downeaster train has been so sucessful that Amtrak is adding another car. The train, which can seat about 220 people has been pulling into South Station each day w/ over 60 people standing.
More than 4,300 people took the train during the first five days of operations, which began December 15. That works out to an average of 860 passengers a day. Amtrak estimates that 320,000 people will ride the Downeaster each year, or an average of 877 a day, but ridership is expected to be higher in the summer than the winter.
Some of this may be due to the novelty of the train and the holiday travel period, but then again they could see additional ridership spikes over the summer vacation period and during any winter snowfalls.
Did Amtrak suddenly discover a hidden tunnel through Boston? Maybe the Downeaster continued on the Orange Line, transferring to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing using a previously unknown interlocking to arrive at South Station. Passengers must have been delighted to be able to connect to other Amtrak service without having to get off the train! :O)
I'm joking with you, Mike.
Did Amtrak suddenly discover a hidden tunnel through Boston?
[grin] Good catch, Pete! I missed that one entirely.
I will avoid my usual rant on how stupid it was NOT to include the concrete walls for a North-South Connector in the Big Dig. Just imagine it for yourselves ....
There is a good reason why the N-S rail link isn't included in the big dog. The big dog is overbudget as it is, and it was hard enuff gettnig the $ to build it from the Feds. The silver line was included as part of the big dog Fed package, thanks to the public transit lobby. The N/S rail link would be useful, but is probably another project altogether.
There is a good reason why the N-S rail link isn't included in the big dog. The big dog is overbudget as it is, and it was hard enuff gettnig the $ to build it from the Feds. The silver line was included as part of the big dog Fed package, thanks to the public transit lobby. The N/S rail link would be useful, but is probably another project altogether.
Politically, you're correct. BUT ... any N-S Connector that is built will cost hugely more than if they'd sunk the walls into the ground beneath the lowest level of freeway, which was the plan for awhile. Scraping out the dirt and adding a concrete floor plus utilities would be far, far easier than tunneling from scratch, and god knows the alignments pretty much work.
As it is, it'll take a couple of generations before the trauma of Big Dig fades for Bostonians. I don't expect to see it in my lifetime (and I'm only 42) ....
The Philly commuter tunnel cost only 300 million dollars. Boston needs to get its act together.
The Philly commuter tunnel cost only 300 million dollars. Boston needs to get its act together.
Don't know details of the Philly project. But the Big Dig is a big, big, big project. It includes:
- a third tunnel (the Ted Williams) under the river to Logan
- sinking between 8 and 11 lanes of freeway below ground
- onramps and offramps in both directions for the above
- a brand-new bridge over the Charles w/about 12 lanes
- relocating all the utilities prior to all of the above ...
- ... while all the while keeping the existing elevated road in service
That is a NON-trivial project. Hard to imagine the Philly project being as complex.
I am *not*, however, weighing in at all on whether it should have cost as much as it has ended up doing!
I was just giving a figure for a downtown rail tunnel including one station that was built under buildings, over one subway line and under another as a benchmark for a post big dig project. It did take 6 years tho.
Only six years? When was the last time anything took only six years to build in NYC?
From what I read, the project taking 6 years was a big deal that attracted much public critisism.
Some people don't know when they're well off. Seems like, around here, it takes that long just to do a study.
Whoopsie there.
Seriously, why can't Amtrak include a free MBTA transfer w/ the cost of a through ticket? You just flash your ticket and get buzzed in.
Maybe because of the reason I cited above? About MBTA and Amtrak being competitors? Read the other branches of this thread...
Did Amtrak suddenly discover a hidden tunnel through Boston? Maybe the Downeaster continued on the Orange Line, transferring to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing using a previously unknown interlocking to arrive at South Station. Passengers must have been delighted to be able to connect to other Amtrak service without having to get off the train! :O)
Unfortunately, they made a huge mess when they tried to shove a couple Genesis locomotives through the Boston subway tunnels. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Ooooohhh, so they have had all that construction work and new tunnels in Boston to fix that? :-)
That would be North Station. I understand that a LOT of people are getting on at Haverhill, which is also served by MBTA commuter rail. But The Downeaster is express (typical running time 53 minutes, vs. 62-66 minutes for the MBTA locals).
Fares? Hoo-boy. Look at this!
MBTA round-trip $9
AMTRAK round-trip $13
MBTA 12 ride $49.50
AMTRAK 10 ride $64
MBTA monthly pass $153
AMTRAK monthly pass $155
So for a round-trip or occasional commuter, a few more dollars gets you more comfort and a faster ride. But the monthly pass is only $2 more! Why not use AMTRAK, if the times are convenient? The downside: with only four trips per day, if you miss your Downeaster, you have to pay for the MBTA train. Also, MBTA passes are good for the subway and buses, AMTRAK passes are not.
But I can see that could there could well be enough commuters from Haverhill with a fixed schedule who work near North Station (and don't need to use the subway), for whom The Downeaster is a no-brainer.
Smart move by AMtrak. I never even thought that the fares would be that close. It's a good way to make the State of Massachusetts pay for trains going through Idaho -- which, I think, makes a lot of sense if the "self-sufficient" mandate of Amtrak's is still in effect after 9-11.
This might also explain why State of MA officials are noticably absent from Downeaster's inaugural run. As reported in the South Station Journal, MA officials were less than happy about the Downeaster.
Let the Massholes complain. As a native of Portsmouth NH, I love being able to take the train up to Portland or down to Bahston. (Getting on at Dover NH)
Hey, why is it called the Downeaster? It doesn't go anywhere near down east, which would be more like Florida and Georgia.
- Lyle Goldman
Its clever name is to make Dick Armey and pals think it'll eventually arrive in Houston. That got it FUNDED. :)
This is a 19th century (or earlier) phrase that is still in use. Maine is Down East from Boston because it is downwind.
It's a maritime phrase, no? Billy Joel wrote a song about the "Downeaster Alexa," which IIRC, was the same of a swordfishing boat. Mr. Joel is an advocate for fishermen near his Long Island home, where the profession is slowly dying-out. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, it's a maritime phrase. You sail downwind, which in the case of going from Boston to Maine happens to be eastward.
In todays NY Post on pages on pages 22 and 23 there is an atricle and photos about Mike B. on the #6 line yesterday. The photos are of him exiting the turnstiles at Brooklyn Bridge, on a R142A and waiting for a train at the 77th St station.
I checked the Post online at http://www.nypost.com/ but they only have a quick mention and cropped photo on the lead page.
Hey, if he keeps it up maybe we can invite him to become a SubTalker.
Where are the sills beneath the doors?
According to Building the Independent Subway, only cars 100-144 didn't have sills beneath the doors. I read that the number plates from 190 were slapped onto 100 at some point, and eventually that situation was straightened out.
And NOW you see why I was suspicious, but for OTHER reasons. Been VERY cautious about this, but I was in the battery box of 190 once upon a time. And DAMN if the plate didn't say 100 ... but yeah, now you have an idea of why I had my doubts. STILL ain't sure though. And I doubt there's real answers either.
I thought 100 was resting in the Transit Museum.
It is now but at the time this picture was taken (my guess the late 60's, early 70's) it was still n the road.
As a reference point: the Transit Museum opened in 1976
Right, those first MU's from ACF had some other type of underbody/door stiffener in the underbody. I am unsure either, but if Selkirk was in the Battery area on this MU and it said it was ACF R-1 #100, then it would be safe to assume a re-numbering took place. Replacement cars for those scrapped/damaged did NOT re-use old car numbers, and I believe the original pre-war R numbering ended around 1704.
The R-1/9 cars were notorious for renumberings. Of course the door sills and that lack thereof were the giveaways.
Bill "Newkirk"
Story I got out of some shop foremen back in the old days was that some cars were dogs that were frequently out of service for the same old problems, parts shortages and other problems. Best way in the system back then to up the MBDF was to swap car number plates so as to hide the same car coming back again and again for the same problem.
Hell ... can we REALLY be sure that 1689 is in fact 1689? Heh. Chalk marks on the trucks? :)
If you go to Joe Korman's website, he has a list of the car switches. I forget the reason, but YES, 100 and 190 were switched at one time.
A number of carplates got swapped - and often didn't match the numbers on decals in the cabs. Made for better numbers. That kind of hijinx doesn't happen these days, but that practice always caused me to disrespect "statistical numbers" in the system just in case anyone wondered WHERE my attitude about MBDF's came from ...
>>I forget the reason, but YES, 100 and 190 were switched at one time. <<
And here's the reason as told to me by a reliable source:
By the mid-60's, the R-1s were in terrible shape with a lot of blown out motors. It was decided to take a certain group of R-1's and remove the motors, making them trailers. For some reason, this group swapped numbers with another in the 100s. The good motors were placed in the trucks that had some burn outs, so they would have cars with full power. Depending on how long the train was, there were either one or two trailer cars.
An outside vendor rebuilt the burned out motors and eventually the R-1s regained their lost motors and the trailer program ended. That's when #190 was renumbered back to #100 and vice-versa. My source tells me that he spoke to someone in Jamaica barn (1966) and #190 was in the inspection barn. he told the guy to have an RCI remove the number plate of #190. He told him that the car number was really #100. After the plate was removed, underneath painted on the car body was #100. So #100 in the Transit Museum IS really #100 and not #190.
Note of interest: When the R-1s were new, I am told they were not delivered with number plates, they were added on later. That's why #100 was painted on the car body.
A side note to this:
R-16s on the (GG) !
Because of the shortage of R-1s due to the motor problem, this created an unusual car assignment change. BMT Standards of the 2300 and 2800 series, that were stored on the Sea Beach express tracks awaiting scrapping were removed and returned to service!!
The Standards, with yellow "S"s for scrap were placed on the Broadway Brooklyn Local. The R-16s on the #14 BBL were then shifted to the (GG) to substitute for the shortage of pre-war equipment.
And you think R-32s on the (F) are hot stuff, the above was the wild and woolly days of te TA !!
Bill "Newkirk"
What's next? Will we see Slant R-40s on the "F"?
#3 West End Jeff
And filth in the underpass at 42nd St ... everything old is new again. :)
>>What's next? Will we see Slant R-40s on the "F"?
#3 West End Jeff <<
No, I doubt that wil ever happen.
Bill "Newkirk"
Slant R40's ont he "F"????
hell, when they were brand new, I rode them on the "F".
Thanks for the background ... that's pretty much the same story I had heard as well ... keeping dead cars in the shop for weeks on end wasn't much liked by "upstairs" and I had heard that plate swapping was going on at a furious pace just to show the shops were moving out the work even when they weren't ...
Yet another example of the day I worked in and how good people have it THESE days with a WORKING subway system.
Note of interest: When the R-1s were new, I am told they were not delivered with number plates, they were added on later. That's why #100 was painted on the car body.
Cunningham & DeHart have some pictures of R1s being delivered and it looks like they already have the plates attached. And of course, there's this picture on the (now) N Line in the very first days of service.
NICE SHOT! Sure looked sharp when they was noo ...
Hello, Mr. TMO, and Moo!
Read this whole thing in New York's Lost Transit Legacy.
( Thanks for the segue ) ;-)
Yo HO, guy! I *love* stopping over your place ... from the els to the 2nd Avenue, to the Q cars to the museum to the Myrt ... whenever there's something new over yonder, it's a battery run over yonder. :)
Thanks for reminding me of that all ... and causing me to take it all in once again!
Did R1's actually run on the Sea Beach line when new, or were they merely tested there? If they were just tested, why does this car have BMT rollsigns?
>>Did R1's actually run on the Sea Beach line when new, or were they merely tested there? If they were just tested, why does this car have BMT rollsigns? <<
The new R-1s were indeed tested on the Sea Beach in revenue passennger service before the opening of the IND subway. Sort of a harbinger of what's yet to come.
Paul's shot of #381 was at Track #7 of Stillwell Terminals Sea Beach platform. Those were indeed BMT signs in #381 and her sisters which included BMT side route and destination signs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why did the BMT allow this? They had to know the IND was being built to put them out of business.
The BMT had to live with the powers-that-be. For example, they needed the Transit Commission's OK to buy experimental equipment like the Zephyr and Green Hornet.
The BMT was supposed to be compensated for the R1 testing but, when it was done, the BMT and City mutually agreed that the BMT got enough use of the R1s in service that it was declared a wash.
I must have wound up with one of those original BMT upper destination curtains spliced to an Eastern Division curtain.
>>Cunningham & DeHart have some pictures of R1s being delivered and it looks like they already have the plates attached. <<
That is hard to see in that photo. Numbers painted on the car bodies could be of the same style font and fool us looking at the photo. But why would #100 have the number painted on the carbody underneath the number plate ? I was told only the R-1s were like that and the R-4s to R-9s had number plates when delivered.
Bill "Newkirk"
But why would #100 have the number painted on the carbody underneath the number plate ?
Well, I'd like to see what the painted number looked like. Anyone seen a pic? Did they look permanent, or something to ID the cars while under construction.? Maybe they originally wanted to have painted number, but decided on the plates instead. Maybe they had painted numbers as a backup since plates could be removed/stolen?
ex-BMT equipment got number plates gradually under city ownership, partly because they were easier to clean while the rest of the car was left dirty. Quite a bit of equipment had painted numbers to the end.
Look at the photo of car 107 onpage 4 of Greller's subway car book!!
Look CLOSE!!! (Get out the Pepsi bottle bottoms....)
There is NO plate for the number. It surely appears to be PAINTED onto the carbody!!!!
>>Look at the photo of car 107 onpage 4 of Greller's subway car book!!
There is NO plate for the number. It surely appears to be PAINTED onto the carbody!!!!
Steve's right !! I don't see anything that would hint to a porcelain enamel plate with mounting bolts.
Bill "Newkirk"
You are right. The nunbers have been applied directly onto the car's body itself. Go to page 29 of the book where it shows a picture of car #100 and it clearly shows that the numbers were applied directly onto the car's body.
#3 West End Jeff
Just checked the book for myself. This is TRUE!!
I've had the book for years....just so used to enamel plates on the R-type cars, never even thought about painted numbers!!
I wonder if they put the enameled number plates in place, because the numbers that were painted directly onto the cars began to wear off.
#3 West End Jeff
Just wondering if there was a BMT/IND track connection back in those days, or was it a carfloat deal from 36th Street Brooklyn to 207th Street Manhattan.
They were turned over to the BMT Freight Dept. at CI yard and delivered to 38th Street freight yard at 2 ave. for return to City on barges.
Ahh, it was a carfloat!
Yes, the R1s knew what the Redbirds have forgotten--subway cars need a barge to float! ;-)
Couldn't they have saved a lot of effort and simply put the standards on the GG line, or was Jamaica incapable of supporting them?
>>Couldn't they have saved a lot of effort and simply put the standards on the GG line, or was Jamaica incapable of supporting them? <<
You sort of answered you own question !!
The 2800 series BMT Standards had rollsigns for the (GG) Crosstown Line, I saw a slide of this. I don't know when those signs were put in there, was it for the mid-60s car shortage of when the 60th St. tube opened, not sure of that. There may be a possibility that Jamaica Barn wasn't able to maintain the Standards since this was on short notice. Also the Standards, not speed demons, were probably judged to operate on their familiar home turf as opposed to IND Queens Blvd Line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, that's the same story about 100/190 I heard, and I do consider the source reliable.
I remember the R16's on the GG -- in fact, I photographed one at Smith/9th Street. I think it's in the R16 photos at NY Subway Resources web site.
In the book by James Clifford Greller "New York City Subway Cars" they show a picture of car #100 without the sills as it would have been originally. I think that car #190 in the picture that you're showing is likely to be car #100 if they switched the number plates back to the original cars.
#3 West End Jeff
This little "plate dance" HAS turned interesting though, no? That was the whole reason I brought it up, to have some fun and shake any lingering doubts. The TA was an absolute *mess* back around the turn of 1970. :)
I think that you're right that this little number plate dance has turned interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
WOW !! look at them enjoying the railfan window !! ....lol!!
Or more specifically, 904 subway cars.
I do.... only 1 please!
....as long as SubwayAl doesn't
get to the rollsigns, first!!
Any TA work is EXCELLENT work....even stripping out Redbirds. CI Peter
Personally, i like the idea of buying an old subway car real cheap, and mount it on a bus chassis. then i would have a big, unique bus with the subway spirit livin on.
Thousands of years from now, this world will come to an end. This planet will be visited by UFOs that will view the vast terrain what will be dried out oceans. They'll wonder what the hell is all those rectangular boxes scattered all over the place !!
No..............heypaul didn't tell me this !
Bill "Newkirk"
Highly unlikely that thousands of years from now that seperating rust out carbodies of Rotboids could be recognized by the remains...a few months in the ocean of salty water should finish off the openings seen when seats are lifted. I frankly don't understand the '207th reefing project' as scrap steel sans harmful materiels should go straight to the smelter. CI Peter
Here are the MDBF Numbers for December. The only numbers I will give are the 6 that follow. I will not give the 2nd highest, the 3rd or the lowest so please do not ask.
Highest IRT Car Class - R-62 242,069 Miles
Highest IRT Shop - Jerome 136,707 miles
Highest IRT Line - #4 136,687 miles
Highest B division car class - R-68 268,981 miles
Highest B division Shop - Concourse 175,937 Miles
Highest B division line - Q 513,474 miles
Congrats - The Concourse does it again !!!!
Nice job, dude, keep up the good work with those hippos.
Congratulations on a very fine job - especially since you turned the subway's "dumb blonde" (the R-68, which is very nice-looking subway car) into an outstanding performer.
Keep up the good work. 2002 will be even better.
Is that the Q circle or the Q diamond or both together? Whatever, the R68 (again) comes in first for reliability in the B division. And it isn't even all your doing (I'm assuming that the Qs are not shopped at Concourse). Oh well, my Brightliners did not even get honorable mention. But they are survivors!
For the Q it's both circle and diamond.
"And it isn't even all your doing (I'm assuming that the Qs are not shopped at Concourse)."
No! There are 209 R-68s at Coney Island & they share the credit for the R-68s excellent performance. In fact, their R-68s did somewhat better than the Concourse R-68s. They don't, however, share the credit for the shop withthe highest MDBF.
If past performance is any indication, I suppose the slants are also running well despite the fact they are falling apart structurally. Despite this, I would bet the house that the Brighton riders are still bitching and moaning to the TA in their cards & letters aout the "lousy" service they receive.
Only in NY. Do you suppose that US Air gets complaints when they switch plane models on a specific route?
(Only in NY. Do you suppose that US Air gets complaints when they switch plane models on a specific route?)
Maybe not, but I must admit I'm not pleased about getting an R32 rather than R46 on the old F train in Brooklyn. I think the R46 is a nicer car, and if you're stuck with an old car, it might as well be a nice old car.
It was a very nice car until GOH got hold of it.
Only in NY. Do you suppose that US Air gets complaints when they switch plane models on a specific route?
Ask that question on airliners.net and you'd be surprised at the answers ...
They might. I'm not a frequent flier, but if I was and the airline took off a nice plane with (comparatively) decent legroom and substituted an older aircraft with tighter seating I'd raise a fuss. Fortunately, the only time I can recall having equipment switched from the scheduled type on a flight I was on it was in favor of a significantly larger aircraft (L-1011 replacing a 727 on a flight from Atlanta to Raleigh).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, yes! When I was a consultant for the USAirways Shuttle (I was their meteorologist), and the airline changed from the vernerable 727 to the new Airbus A-320 with lots more comfort and amenities, many "oldtimers" complained about "their" 727 being phased out and replaced with the "new tech that won't work."
So it can happen anywhere!
Ahhh, A320, fly-by-wire and they did away with yolks and use joystick type to control.
That's exactly how I feel on the 2!
Enjoy your new 'smooth ride' and hope that there aren't any 'door indication failures' to hang it up. CI Peter
Only in NY. Do you suppose that US Air gets complaints when they switch plane models on a specific route?
Would you not agree that when there are different comfort differences between the models the passengers might have a legitimate complaint? For example, if 10-car R32's are substituted for 8-car R46's the number of seats per train drops from 600 to 480. That's almost like a 20% cut in service.
It may well be a 20% cut in SEATS (nominally, more in practice since people tend to slop over into adjacent seats on R-32s, which have 50-not 48-seats a car), but not in service. I have no doubt that people would complain (they DID complain on the Brighton express when R-40s replaced R-68s). However, the trains (10 cars x 60 feet vs. 8 cars x 75 feet) have roughly the same nominal capacity, and the train of 60-footers has a greater capacity in practice because of the seating layout, and it loads and unloads faster because it has more doors.
David
It may well be a 20% cut in SEATS (nominally, more in practice since people tend to slop over into adjacent seats on R-32s, which have 50-not 48-seats a car), but not in service.
I've had occasion to look up the seating capacity of both the R68A's and the R32's in the National Transportation Database (1999). The data is supplied by NYCT. The seating capacity for the R32's is given as 44; the seating capacity for the R68A's is given as 72. These numbers disagree with MTA published data that cites: "NYCT Division of Operations Planning/Facilities, Subway Vehicle Passenger Capacities", December 18, 1992 which gives: 50 for 60 foot cars and 70 or 74 for the 75 footers.
The difference in the R32's represents 1 less person on the long benches between the doors. Perhaps there was a revised girth factor between 1992 and 1999. :-)
I don't care what some database says. I count 50 seats on an R-32 and on an R-38, as follows:
cab-2 seats-door-7 seats-door-7 seats-door-7 seats-door-2 seats=25 seats (on each side of the car)
Now, the 7-seaters are usually taken up by 5-6 people, but it doesn't mean they're not 7-seaters.
David
Fat butts pay only one fare. Moulded seats rule. CI Peter
I think it's more an issue of familiarity than it is comfort. I don't think the average subway rider has any concept of which car has more seats or more standing room or whether trains of 60' cars have shorter dwell times. In general, people seem to resist change.
When the equipment on the Q was changed from R-68A to the R-40S you could hear the howls from the Brighton Beach contingent all the way to midtown manhattan. It didn't matter that the MDBF ob the Q and the B went up noticably. Their trains were changed.
I don't think the average subway rider has any concept of which car has more seats or more standing room or whether trains of 60' cars have shorter dwell times.
I think the average subway rider has a very clear concept of whether or not he has a seat and what are his chances of getting one. The passengers' misunderstanding was in equating the reduced chances of getting a seat with lower service levels. The notion that NYCT would purposely design cars with fewer seats and no overall increase in capacity escaped their limited reasoning. It still escapes mine.
When the equipment on the Q was changed from R-68A to the R-40S you could hear the howls from the Brighton Beach contingent all the way to midtown manhattan. It didn't matter that the MDBF ob the Q and the B went up noticably.
Are you stating that the R-40S' have a higher MDBF than the R-68A's? If not, then how would substituting some less reliable R-40S for the more reliable R-68A's result in an increased MDBF for the combined fleet?
Are you stating that the R-40S' have a higher MDBF than the R-68A's? If not, then how would substituting some less reliable R-40S for the more reliable R-68A's result in an increased MDBF for the combined fleet?
YES! When the R-40s were moved from a full-time line (B) to a part time line (Q) they were layed up at night and on weekends. They received additional maintenance and began to perform better. Incidently, the R-68As MDBF was approximately 40% higher than the R-40s. Both were above the fleet average.
YES! When the R-40s were moved from a full-time line (B) to a part time line (Q) they were layed up at night and on weekends. They received additional maintenance and began to perform better. Incidently, the R-68As MDBF was approximately 40% higher than the R-40s. Both were above the fleet average.
I'm sorry, I don't follow the math. You stated in your first post that the R-68's had the top MDBF figures. Suppose the Q's ran a distance D, then the number of expected failures, N, would be given by:
N = D/MDBF.
I'm assuming that after the substitution the combined fleet went the same distance as before. In calculating the number of failures for the combined fleet, assume that 0 < x < 1 is the fraction of R-68's used. Then the number of failures for the R-68's would be:
N68 = xD/MDBF
The number of failures for the R-40's would be:
N40 = (1-x)D/(MDBF/1.4) = 1.4(1-x)D/MDBF
Your statement was that: N > N68 + N40
This implies that:
D/MDBF > xD/MDBF + 1.4(1-x)D/MDBF
D/MDBF > [1.4 - .4x]D/MDBF
1 > 1.4 - .4x
x > 1
which contradicts the original assumption.
Are you stating that the R-40S' have a higher MDBF than the R-68A's? - SB
YES!...Incidently, the R-68As MDBF was approximately 40% higher than the R-40s. - TD
Without resorting to math, a contradiction appears to be evident, unless we are misunderstanding the statements.
Without resorting to the math, let me say that my statement was completely misunderstood. Likely my lack of clarity because I did not want to give the actual MDBF numbers for either fleet.
What I had intended to relate was what has happened since the R-40s were moved to the Q and the R-68As were moved to the B. In fact, the performance of the R-68A (which was double that of the Slants, is now about 40% higher despite the fact that the R-68As have remained fairly constant. The other fact is that the Slants now exceed the fleet MDBF.
MDBF gonna get better on A division. OnTheJuice, CI Peter
R U gonna use D cells on the 142s?
Keep up the good work, TD! And the Q will always come in first for me.
I noticed that only 88% of the R-68 fleet is actually used during peak times on any given day, despite the reliabliltiy figures. Even the lowly R42 sports a higher a utilization percentage.
These figures are worse for the Div A. Utilization for the R-62's is 77%, whereas utilization for the R-33's is 82%.
I saw a sign in a booth saying 'Compute problems, tokens only'. Does this mean that people would have to buy a token, and if they wanted to transfer to a bus they would have to pay again? I know its not proper, but is it legal?
What would happen if there was a computer failure effecting the turnstiles? Would people be 1 - Be forced to buy tokens, 2 - Told to go to a different station, 3 - Just be let in?, 4 - Something else?
If the booth computer is down for servicing or failure then all we can sell is tokens unless our station has no MVMs. If we have no MVMs then we will carry pre-encoded cards for $6, $215, $17 and $63.
As far as bus transfers- sorry!
If the turnstiles do not take cards then we could check the card. If it is a started unlimited we can allow entey. Otherwise tokens only and we will call for a maintainer via calling Station Command. Of course, it may take a whiel for the maintainer to show. If the tunrstiles fail completely then we use the Non Revenue Fare Box (NRFB) wehich is the tall black box near the turnstiles and hit the EBCS and face a booth audit. If the NRFB is jammed then again we hit the EBCS and then hand collect by asking the customer to give us the token and buzz them in. In either case, police will be sent by Stations to make sure people pay.
Of course, if they have no cash we can suggest they go to another station. (Note- if a station has more than one booth and turnstiles/computer are out at the main booth they may or may not be out at other booths in the station depending on whether the Station Controller (SC) is running. If the SC is down then the entire station is tokens only.) If the SC is running then the other booth(s0 if open will be in service and sell cards and tokens.
This LARCENY by the MTA is why the token should be eliminated, apparently it only exists to facilitate the MTA's ability to steal money from passengers.
It is not Larceny ! Let's say you go to the department store to buy some Pig videos and their phones lines are down so you cant charge your videos. The store will ask for cash or no sale. WHy is Transit different. If we use the NRFB or if we hand collect either way it is a mandatory booth audit. We do not have keys to the NRFB and neither does supervision. Only Revenue has keys to the NRFB.
Hand collect is an absolute last resort and must be specifically approved from Jay Street. If Police are present we give them a revenue bag if the NRFB is jammed and the cops hand collect and give us the tokens to count as fares. Hand collect is not fun but a nightmare.
The difference is that the video store doesn't give a 52% discount to those paying by credit card, not making it available to anyone when the credit card reader is down.
The current subway fare, for those willing to buy in bulk, is $1.37 for a ride followed by a transfer. I am not willing to pay $1.50 for the initial ride, let alone an additional $1.37 for the transfer to the bus. Call the cops if you like -- I'm paying the proper fare and entering the system.
I would think that most regular subway riders would use an unlimited Metrocard, rendering most of these calculations academic. The more rides taken, the cheaper each one becomes.
Right, and with the unlimited if it is already started we can check that it is valid and buzz you in.
A regular rider would be twice a day, every weekday for a month.
That comes out to $60.00. In order to make an unlimited card a value, one has to expect to ride at least three more times.
I'd be surprised if most people use unlimited cards. They're priced to be slightly more expensive than the typical usage, if paid-per-ride, for their effective periods.
If I commuted by subway or bus every weekday, I'd certainly use 30-day passes, since I also sometimes (okay, often) engage in recreational riding. But I typically only ride a few times a week, if that. It's pay-per-rides for me, with an occasional Fun Pass (I once used a 7-day pass). I do always compute in advance which option is the cheapest -- of course, once in a while my plans will change and (say) I'll pay for three individual rides in a day, wasting a dime.
>>> The current subway fare, for those willing to buy in bulk, is $1.37 for a ride followed by a transfer. I am not willing to pay $1.50 for the initial ride, let alone an additional $1.37 for the transfer to the bus. <<<
A slight correction. The current fare is $1.50. Those who buy in bulk get a discount, which amounts to one free ride for each ten paid rides. At certain times the discount is not available due to system malfunctions. At certain times, due to accidents or power failure, the whole system is unavailable at any price. The fact that you bought a Metrocard does not guarantee you travel at the discounted price at any time you want, just as it does not guarantee you any transportation at all while service is suspended.
Tom
The current fare is approximately $1.37 for those willing to buy/recharge MetroCards with at least $15 at a time. Since this fare arrangement went into effect, I paid $1.50 for a ride once, and that was just to see what the new bus transfers looked like.
If the subway system is down, obviously it's not going to take me anywhere, but neither is it going to charge me. If it's up, then I'll pay the proper fare ($1.37 by MetroCard, since my latest MetroCard purchase was in the amount of $15) and go wherever I'm going.
When I bought my MetroCard, the implied contract was that it was valid for fares (and free transfers, where and when available) at all times. With my MetroCard, I am entitled to ride and the TA is entitled to deduct the appropriate fare from the card. If the MetroCard system goes down, that's not my problem -- I'm still entitled to ride even if the TA is temporarily not equipped to deduct the fare from my card. If I'm asked nicely and I'm carrying cash (I normally don't use cash, so I sometimes forget to bring any), I'll pay $1.37 in cash, although I wouldn't be so accomodating if I had no plans to refill my MetroCard or buy another one later (say, if I were a tourist or a resident about to move out of the city permanently) -- that is, unless I'll be using the transfer, in which case I'll pay the $1.37 when I dip my card on the bus. I'm meeting my end of the deal.
>>> The current fare is approximately $1.37 for those willing to buy/recharge MetroCards with at least $15 at a time. <<<
Repeating it will not make it true. The fare is $1.50. When you buy ten fares, one free ride is given to you as a bonus. I assume this is done by putting $16.50 credit on the card when you pay $15.00. If you were allowed to pay $1.37 in cash when the computer was down, and therefore not deducting rides from the card, instead of getting 11 rides for $15.00, you would be receiving 12 rides for $16.37. Do you believe that if you put $16.37 on a Metrocard you would receive 12 rides? You would not. You would get 11 rides and $1.37 credit toward future rides. If you go to refill the card with the $1.37 credit on it by adding $13.63 to make a total of $15.00, you will get only 10 rides. Although purchasing $15.00 of rides at a time to get a bonus ride free reduces the effective cost of the rides to you, it does not reduce the price of a ride.
>>> When I bought my MetroCard, the implied contract was that it was valid for fares (and free transfers, where and when available) at all times. With my MetroCard, I am entitled to ride and the TA is entitled to deduct the appropriate fare from the card. If the MetroCard system goes down, that's not my problem -- I'm still entitled to ride even if the TA is temporarily not equipped to deduct the fare from my card <<<
You are willing to accept the fact that if the electricity fails, or a tunnel is flooded the TA is not required to immediately transport you to your destination even though your contract was to be able to ride there by swiping your MetroCard at a station and getting on a train. The TA is only required to take all reasonable means to keep the trains running. By the same reasoning, when a computer failure makes it impossible to read your MetroCard, there is no requirement that you be allowed into system because you have a MetroCard. The card is nothing but a debit card, indicating that you have a money balance which may be used instead of cash for paying the fare. If a bank's ATM computer system goes down, you cannot withdraw (what you think is) your own money from the ATM, even though you have a card that entitles you to do so 24 hours a day. The failure of the MetroCard computer system is no different.
Tom
> Do you believe that if you put $16.37 on a Metrocard you would receive 12 rides?
A 10% credit applies for any amount greater than or equal to $15.00 added to a MetroCard. $16.37 plus 10% is $18.007, a bit more than 12 fares.
>>> A 10% credit applies for any amount greater than or equal to $15.00 <<<
That is interesting, I thought the excess was provided in blocks of $15.00, but regardless, since they add the amount to the balance on the card, it supports the premise that the fare remains $1.50, and the TA is providing a bonus for purchasing in advance (giving them the use of your money sooner) rather than lowering the fare per ride.
Tom
No, it's just a matter of bookkeeping. The effect would be identical if a $15 MetroCard came with a balance of $15.00, with $1.37 (or so) deducted per ride. MetroCards with smaller initial balances would be subject to a (roughly) 9.5% service charge, deducted upon purchase. (I think the numbers work out. If not, you get my gist.)
>>> The effect would be identical if a $15 MetroCard came with a balance of $15.00, with $1.37 (or so) deducted per ride. <<<
This is what I posted earlier. With a MetroCard your effective cost of a ride is $1.37. You have used the biggest little word in the English language, "IF". IF the MetroCard had $15.00 added and $1.37 deducted for each ride the price per ride would be $1.37. When the Card has $16.50 added for $15.00 paid, the price per ride remains $1.50. There is a real difference between the concepts of "price" and "effective cost."
Tom
The only distinction between the two scenarios I presented is what is displayed on the MetroCard readout screens. In either case, I pay $15.00 and get a card valid for 11 rides or I pay $13.50 and get a card valid for 9 rides. Is this the "real difference between the concepts of 'price' and 'effective cost'" that you allude to?
>>> Is this the "real difference between the concepts of 'price' and 'effective cost'" <<<
To reiterate what was said earlier in the thread, you stated that if you purchased a MetroCard for $15.00, the price per ride was $1.37, and therefore if computers were down the TA should allow you to ride for a cash fare of $1.37. I stated that even with your $15.00 MetroCard, the price remains $1.50 per ride, only your effective cost when using the MetroCard has been reduced to $1.37, and there is a difference between "price" and "effective cost."
Price is the amount of money given or set as consideration for the sale of a specified thing. In this case the TA sets the price at $1.50 per ride. When they give you $16.50 credit for your $15.00 payment, they are giving you the extra value for the use of your money before they provide the service. Their cost to provide that extra ride is very low, since most of their costs are fixed, and they are getting money cheaper than they can borrow it. (They also get "breakage," i.e. some percent of the total rides are never used.)
Cost is the outlay or expenditure made to achieve an object. If you purchased a MetroCard for $15.00 and you and 15 of your immediate friends (whom you are treating) used it to go on a fan trip, right away, your effective cost would be $15.00 divided by 16 or approximately $1.37 for each ride. OTOH if you purchase your $15.00 MetroCard and go on a one year vacation to Spain, and upon your return you take your friends on that same fan trip using the MetroCard, the effective cost would be higher. The reason is that you would have lost the interest you would have earned on the $15.00 during the year. If it could have been invested at 10% per annum, the return would have been $1.50, so this time your effective cost of the 16 rides would be $1.50 each. If you purchase a $15.00 MetroCard, and drop it off the platform of an el station on your first trip, your effective cost of that ride is $15.00.
That is using extremes to illustrate the mean. When you buy a MetroCard you probably do not wait a whole year to use it, and you probably don't have 10% per annum investments waiting for each dollar, but each day the card has a balance on it adds to the effective cost of using it. It is not something to worry about since it is a de minimis amount, but it illustrates the difference between price (the TA's charge for a ride) and effective cost (what you pay).
Tom
Right! As I have informed customers-- When you pay your fare all you get is permission to use the system to get from point A to Point B.
There is no guarantee a train will arrive at a specified time , no guarantee you will get a seat or a specific type of train (ie Slant, R142, etc.) and no guarantee toy will make a certain connection. We do give block tickets if all service from our station is suspended or G.O. tickets if a shuttle bus is needed.
I then follow up with " I am sorry you are inconvenienced.I know you are frustrated. I too am late for my next stop. I know gow you feel."
American Pig states that the continued use of the token is LARCENY.
Subway Buff responds "It is not Larceny ! Let's say you go to the department store to buy some Pig videos"
Uh..oh ! Could this be the first SubTalk war of 2002 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I for one got a chuckle out of it.
I'll bet Pigs was surprised at the reply, maybe too surprised to answer ?
Mr rt__:^)
Not shocked at all. David Greengerber mentioned everything that I would have had I posted, making my own post uneccessary.
I wonder who he is.
I'm glad to see that "American Pig" is at it again. The new year is just a week old and one thing has not changed. "American Pig" loves to
argue over just about anything. Maybe if were lucky his MetroCard won't work in the turnstile.
#3 West End Jeff
I prefer my way of doing things to your incessant tendency to agree.
Of course, if you have a strong opinion, like your crazy plan of reinstating divisions and using numbers for all lines, you'll argue just the same.
I guess that argument is only wrong when it isn't yours, is it?
>> Let's say you go to the department store to buy some Pig videos and their phones lines are down so you cant charge your videos. The store will ask for cash or no sale. <<
If it were my store in this day and age, I'd sooner close than embarass customers by not accepting a key form of payment. Cash and tokens just don't cut it any more. I was in a store once that had its charge card reader out, and it was frustrating to watch customers be refused sale. Better to close altogether than to do that to customers-- and all the more important to make sure the computers are fail-safe and have backups. For better or for worse, the plastic card is it today.
Your point is valid but we cannot decide on our own. Many times there are supervisors and managers in hiding and when we flub up they come out of the woodwork and correct us. If we are caught we face discipline, ANy such decision has to come from supervision and in some cases even supervision has to call Jay Street for a decision.
Transit is run like the military- the privates must follow the orders of their superiors or face court-martial!
So that's why sometimes when I'm at work I feel like I'm a prisioner!
Right on! Remember we are the privates. We diont get paid to think but to blindly follow orders unless the orders are dangerous. If a supervisor tells you to sweep the stairs you sweep and then grieve. If a supervisor tells you to polish the third rail ask for the direction in writing and then call Stations and ask for the Level II. If still instructed to go ahead tell them you refuse as a safety issue and invoke 1.9 and close the job site down until bigwigs at TWU an TA meet.
I would tell that supervisor that I didn't know how to do that. Would be be kind enough to show me how to polish the 3rd rail ?
Mr rt__:^)
>>>Transit is run like the military- the privates must follow the orders of their superiors or face court-martial!<<<
I always thought it was run more like a grade school, they treat their employees like children. The military respects it's people. But, to each his own.
Peace,
ANDEE
No it's run like a mushroom farm ... you keep them in the dark & feed them shit.
hahaha...Now that's rich
Peace,
ANDEE
If a credit card is not accepted it is not always the fault of the store. During peak shopping periods there have been times when the problems occur at the credit card companies (ie, slow phone lines, network problems etc). In those cases I would not expect a store to close because it. Believe it or not, CASH was still a valid form of currency. Most folks carry enough cash to cover their daily shopping needs.
The last time I was in a store that had credit card problems was Christmas of 2000 - I was in the NYC Bloomingdales and they had problems processing Visa cards. The customer had the option of using 1 - other forms of credit, 2 - Cash, or 3 - not making the purchase.
Having worked in several retail establishments over the past few years, I must say that I've never seen a customer refused sale because our card reader was down. Speaking from experience (this may not be true elsewhere, but is what I've seen), each retailer has access to a toll-free number to verify credit cards before taking an imprint of the card. I've never had the phone lines go down (at least not all of them) so I'm not sure what would be done then.
Remember those big sliding card-imprint roller machines (KaCHA!)? Most merchants still have one laying around, expressly for this purpose. I believe it may even be a requirement of the retailer's merchant agreement with the credit card company.
I know this may not apply to the MetroCard system, but as it applies to retail credit cards, that's how it works. Anyone who has their sale denied because "the card reader's down" is probably the victim of the retailer's laziness, not the failure of the system.
Banks are notorious these days for "too bad - the computer's down" ... what may have passed for service among merchants who live by every individual sale does not apply to political subdivisions or apparently banks either. I sure wouldn't blame the hourlies for the way things are done. But since "transit" *is* a political subdivision, there's always the option of leaving footprints on foreheads and getting a politico's office involved in a nice sausage-pressing ... policies can be changed, but it's a trickle-down kinda thing ... all it takes is getting a politico to whiz ...
Can we maybe lure Bill Gates into a dark alley and issue some backseat justice? :)
Remember those big sliding card-imprint roller machines (KaCHA!)? Most merchants still have one laying around, expressly for this purpose. I believe it may even be a requirement of the retailer's merchant agreement with the credit card company.
It used to be, but by 1999 was no longer, at least for Visa and MasterCard (the only ones we took at the late great Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina). Our imprinter broke that year and when we called to get a replacement we were told we didn't need one any more - all we needed to do was write our merchant number and the customer's card number on the appropriate paper form. I don't recall ever using it except for tracking credits, though, since we weren't set up to process them live - had to enter them batch mode at the end of the day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You learn something new every day, I suppose. Though it made for a fun day when I was working at RadioShack and our server went down.. back to the stone age of looking up prices in books and figuring out tax by battery-operated calculator. Even with all the mayhem, we still took charge cards. Didn't even bother phoning them in. This is off-topic enough, so I'll stop there.
--
Ian Penovich
...back to the stone age of looking up prices in books and figuring out tax by battery-operated calculator.
Well, our store was sufficiently modern that we either had the price marked on everything or we knew what it was, our cash register had a crank on the side, and our primary calculator was called a brain (its backup was paper and pencil)... the only thing electronic in the store was the credit card swiper and the power supplies. We never did get into DCC either. RIP The Hobby Shop, 1946-2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I've never seen a customer refused sale because our card reader was down. <<<
I've been a couple of super markets where they could not even make cash sales when their computers went down.
Tom
On 9/11, I had to pay cash at a hardware store. If unusual circumstances is ever an excuse, it was then. (ObSubway: The hardware store is directly above 96 on the 1/2/3 -- well, it was the 1/2/3/9 that morning, and at the time there was no subway service anywhere in the city.) That was nothing compared to my attempts to buy milk -- I wasn't trying to hoard, but apparently everyone else was.
OK-But what if none of the turnstiles work and you can't do anything with metrocards at the booth.
Then we hit the alarm button and start to use the non Revenue Fare Box (NRFB) which is the black box near the service gate. If that is jammed, we again hit the EBCS and we get permission to hand collect which is a customer gives us the token and we buzz them in.
We dont like either since it is a mandatory booth audit and duie to non-registered fares the money wont match and we have to explain why ( of course, the turnstiles are out).
All the MVM's at St.George weren';t accepting bills yesterday.
thas because they either ran out of change or the bill boxes were full. Step into the 21th century and use your credit card already. My credit card gives me reward points further reducing the cost of each trip
Can anyone provide a listing of each line's super?
Thanks.
If you go to www.straphangers.com there is a list there of the Supt's who take care of all the subway lines.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Futher on Line Supt's. After going to www.straphangers.com click on any of the lines's like the B or #4 line there is the list of Supt lines.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Those lists are very outdated...
-Harry
You caught some of the errors too, I guess.
There is at least one glaring error in the list of Line Superintendents. The person listed as the A line superintendent, is actually the General Supt. of District #5 E, F, G, R & V lines.
David Spivey now works at control as the Nigh Supt. as well.
-Harry
Night- not nigh
Either way - unless there was a big raise involved, I would have thought he was smarter than that. Who moved into his spot, Sutton?
I don't know offhand. I met him once but forgot his name...
-Harry
There IRT list only two are currect the No.1+4 Lines. Supt they have listed for the No.6 Line is Gen. Supt of District 2 (4,5,6 Lines.
Has anyone seen the January SEPTA transpass yet? It has a really good picture of four M-4 trains at the yard, with a whole fleet of old almond joys in the background. Wonderful picture.
Mark
You have one? Can you scan it?
Sure I can do that. I might not get to it until next week, though.
Mark
Ok. That would be nice!
Why hasn't the N/W line been extended with tail tracks to increase TPH into the terminal? As it is, trains have to crawl through the timers so they don't fly though the end stop, and this always slows down the arrival & departures.
If trains could arrive at a normal station speed, the turnaround time for each train would be decreased, and more TPH in the station.
How far would the tail tracks need to be to allow normal speeds? If the tracks were extended to the edge of Ditmars Blvd., would that be enough? This would reduce neighborhood complaints if that intersection was still open to the sky. As it is , the tracks end 100-200'(?) short of the intersection.
JR
How far would the tail tracks need to be to allow normal speeds?
You need enough distance to stop a train with the emergency brakes that is going at the maximum attainable speed. This works out to 612.5 feet beyond the station for a speed of 50 mph and a deceleration rate of 3 mph/sec.
OTOH, they managed to handle 19 tph quit nicely in the past. They are handling only 14 tph today.
The 1 terminus at 242 St. has 2 tracks and no tail tracks. How many TPH do they haNDLE?
Maximum scheduled service today is about 12 tph. Before 9/11, maximum scheduled service (northbound in the morning rush only) was about 15 tph.
(I base these numbers on the published timetables. Where I see headways of, e.g., "4-6 minutes," I assume average headways of 5 minutes, for 12 tph.)
This will all become academic once they start extending the N to LGA.
When will that happen?
- Lyle Goldman
Around the same time as the extension along Ditmars Blvd. to LaGuardia Airport.
Yesterday I rode the PATH train from 14th Street to Newark. On the frieght tracks next to the PATH ROW south of Journal Square, I saw a slew of gondolas - loaded with SNOW! What in the Sam Hill were they doing there? I hope that they were not from Buffalo - that would be crazy. There has not been any snow in the Tri State regionlately, so what gives? You never know what you might see from a train these days.
My dad told me once there was so much snow in Chicago that a train of boxcars was loaded up with snow and sent to the Florida. Most of it melted along the way, but enough made it to give the Floridians there first look at snow.
David
Someone on another message board reported seeing a similar sight in Philly's Greenwich Yard. Maybe it's being shipped to Jersey to ease the drought. :)
Why would they waste time loading it into rail cars to ship somewhere, when they could just as well dump it in the Delaware River?
I'd be willing to bet it isn't SNOW in the gondola inthe rail yard, but it was a gondola load of ballast, rocks, dirt, junk, etc. that just got a good covering with snow.
It's snow. They are snowed up in upstate. They ship the snow to somewhere hot to melt off. That train was probably gons full of snow going to Florida, and by the time it gets there the gons are empty and the train goes back for another load. I don't rememebr if Selkirk TMO has mentioned this before. They certain do it on the MoPac -- they ship it to Texas.
Yep ... when you get snow like we do upstate (and AMAZINGLY, there's not a FLAKE on the ground here) you try to pile it up next to the road, in the back of parking lots and any hole you can find. Rivers tend to be iced over, so that's not an answer. Eventually you run out of places to pile it and so you start front-loading it into trucks, trains or anything that's leaving town just to put it SOMEWHERE.
Joisey's a good place as far as Buffalo and the Tug Hill plateau are concerned. :)
What you say may be true, but I am in Texas and I have not seen any snow from anywhere, and MoPac goes through town. Austin,TX.
They get diverted to Waco for sno-cones. :)
Many years ago I handled a restaurant for a CPA firm. The restaurant was located at the end of South Ocean Avenue and the Great South Bay in Patchogue New York. When there was a lot of snow the Town of Brookhaven and the Village of Patchogue would load snow into dump trucks and they'd go onto the pier just past the Restaurant, dump the load into the Great South Bay and go reload.
Several years later after a large snow, the trucks didn't arrive and I asked the restauranteur why not and he said that the EPA banned the practice because it was harmful to the marine life.
That's probably why Buffalo can't just dump the snow in any body of water up there.
Several years later after a large snow, the trucks didn't arrive and I asked the restauranteur why not and he said that the EPA banned the practice because it was harmful to the marine life.
So, where do they keep the tarp to cover the bay during a snowstorm?
The snow that has been scraped off the streets is significantly contaminated by oil, salt, and other compounds. Dumping these, in concentration, into the bay can "shock" the water and kill marine life.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One OTHER small angle (I'm sure the EPA angle had to do with salt mixed in being dumped into SALT water, go figure - in upstate New York, it's illegal to dump LEAVES in the Hudson) is that unlike the salt water that surrounds the city and Long Island and the Hudson up toe the "saltwater line" near Beacon is that upstate, the rivers which consist of UNsalted water are frozen solid this time of year.
Down south, snow can be dumped into the ocean perhaps in winter because the water is still in a liquid state. Not so upstate. It just piles and sits there and eventually you run out of place to pile it. When this happens, it has to be trucked or railroaded elsewhere where it can be offloaded. And if it heads south in deadhead cars and is gone by the time it gets to where the empty cars are needed, the whole world is a happier place. It's actually that simple ...
After the big snowstorm here in NYC a few years ago (1996?), the city dumped lots of snow in the Hudson. If I'm wrong, kindly account for those huge chunks of ice I saw from Riverside Park.
NYC's storm overflow drains go straight into the river as well. Actually an ingenious bit of design that permits the regular sewage to go to treatment plants and only the overflow to the river during gully washers in the city. But as to the snow, the BIG advantage NYC has is that the Hudson rarely freezes there thanks to the salt content and the size of the river down there.
Up in Buffalo and much of the rest of upstate, the rivers and lakes freeze over for winter and stay that way. No place to dump the snow once you've filled the usual locations, so off it goes to somewhere else when you're all full up. And it gets MIGHTY expensive for upstate communities to ship it out ... MIGHTY expensive.
Yep ... it's from out west ... New York City ships its garbage up here, we ship snow back. NAFTA is good. :)
Yellow snow???
Only where the huskies go ... generally up here, the snow may contain some road salt and dirt that's spread on, but largely it's mostly plain old snow. Up here isn't like down there where the snow looks real pretty all over everything for about 6 hours and then it turns brown. Nothing prettier though than when it snowed on the els and the trains got a whole lot quieter during the storms. A good snowstorm had a way of absorbing the noise and increasing the "sparkiness" up there. :)
And this is from a passenger.
I know it's for "safety" (more like "liability"), but why do there have to be so many g**amn timers. For example, I was so excited this morning to be able to catch a W train at Pacific Street because the next stop would be Canal in Manhattan!. That's a pretty hefty distance with no stops. I could have walked faster.
And someone on the board mentioned the timers at Ditmars in Astoria preventing quick turn-arounds there.
They just put a whole bunch of those wacky new flashing lunar Wheel Detector lights at Queens Plaza, forcing Queensbound locals to crawl into the station.
There's also the timers placed what seems like about a yard apart as the Queens-bound 7 approaches Grand Central.
And people often post about the slowness of the CPW express trains, which by all rights should zoom up and down the park.
And countless others.
Is it just that a few drunk or sleepy T/O's, who couldn't seem to keep their eyes on the road, screwed it up for everybody? Aren't the block signals which are already there enough to throw the train into BIE if it gets too close to one ahead? No, I'm not a T/O, but when I look out the front window, there are so many places where there's not a train in sight, and a decent view down the tracks, wherein the T/O could really open 'er up, but timers have us plodding along like a silver snail. Can't we depend on and trust our T/O friends to use their eyeballs for cryin' out loud?! Pretty soon, people are gonna wonder why they put the word "rapid" in "rapid transit."
"Is it just that a few drunk or sleepy T/O's, who couldn't seem to keep their eyes on the road, screwed it up for everybody?"
I believe so. Once someone has proved an accident can happen, the TA has to prevent it from ever happening again, or else risk an incredibly large negligence award.
Definitely that's what happened on the downtown Lex express at 14th. It was a great ride from GCT until the big accident. Now they slow down at 23rd.
Are you talking about the 1991 accident or something recently because I noticed in the last year that the expresses going down Lex have gotten slower between 14-Brooklyn Bridge.
I was referring to 1991. I don't know what would cause them to slow down below 14th, except maybe a general phobia about going around a curve too fast and possibly causing someone who isn't holding on to fall down. I agree there are some moderate curves below 14th that don't really seem to deserve the slow speeds they take them at.
The 1991 Union Square crash occurred on a straight stretch, at a switch, which was entered at a high speed by a motorman who was found to not be in control of his train.
wayne
We know. AIUI, one finding of the subsequent investigation was that the train passed red signals and went BIE, but because of the train's high speed, that wasn't enough to prevent the accident. That would explain why speeds have been reduced through there.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
-- Tim
Last time I was there, there was ONE timer north of Union Square.
Could be, but it has a powerful influence. Pre-1991, downtown expresses used to slow down at around 16th street as they entered the station. Now you can feel them slow down (because of the yellow light due to the timer) at 23rd Street.
On a lighter note, the R46 R train I rode yesterday hit 50 MPH in the 60th St. tube.
I looooooooove the 60th Street tube, especially in an R-32 on a late night or weekend. It's one of the only places the trains can still really move!
I don't think the bridge problem was due to timers. Sometimes, especially in the mornings, the trains start getting backed up and the bridge crossing goes slow. At other times, they cross at a decent speed.
The crossed much faster on the north side. Perhaps the merger of the W with the N/R at 34th St. slows the whole thing up.
SEPTA Broad street subway. hehe you got speed there.
They just put a whole bunch of those wacky new flashing lunar Wheel Detector lights at Queens Plaza, forcing Queensbound locals to crawl into the station.
What are Wheel Detector lights? Where are they installed? I've noticed that R's and E's and F's on the express track Queensbound have crawled into there, but I don't mind. The E's and F's travel at a decent speed until just before Queens Plaza i/b, but it's no big deal.
There's also the timers placed what seems like about a yard apart as the Queens-bound 7 approaches Grand Central.
Exactly how slow do q/b trains pull into the station?
And people often post about the slowness of the CPW express trains, which by all rights should zoom up and down the park.
As I have mentioned in my other post, if you ride a D train in either direction, you won't be complaining about the slow ride as some may have on the A. Is there a difference regarding this?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
1. Wheel detectors are a fancy form of timers. They measure the speed of a train as the ENTIRE train passes them, not just the speed of the front car, and can trip a train even after the front car has passed through. They are installed in strategic locations throughout the system.
2. Someone more familiar with the line can tell us what the posted speed is approaching Grand Central on the Queens-bound Flushing Line. However, often, throughout the system, Train Operators go through timers at less than the posted speed.
3. There should be no (or virtually no) difference between D trains and A trains on the Central Park West express tracks. If there is a difference (and it might be more a matter of perception than reality), it is most likely in the way the trains are being operated by their Train Operators rather than in the equipment.
David
In response to number 2:
That's because most of the timers aren't exactly precise. You have to go like 3-4mph slower than posted speed for the timer to clear right by you. There was a GT20 on the E line somewhere in the simulator, I put a 20 brake when I was going 25, went down to 17, cleared right as I passed it. Either that, or the speedometers aren't exact. Whatever.
The simulator will clear at any speed. It's a laserdisc recording.
I know. I've used it.
David
True- it is the major flaw in it.
The new ones with motion will not have similar problems.
-Harry
Exactly. And for those who don't know, the graphics on the new simulator will be completely different from the current ones' graphics. They'll ALL be computer-generated (as opposed to the cartoon-like stuff that's occasionally thrown in front of the video clips on the current ones).
David
I wanted them to but in a cracked glass graphic for derailing or the unintentional add at CIY like the old Battlezone game.
Or if you overspeed or hit a signal they could cut to a TSS and a burly T/O that take you OOS.
GAME OVER. :)
Hey transit might be full of perverts but to a kid the yard is fun you can see Dwarves, play with the Dolly and the chair and housetops, boys of course will like the bugmen.
I think her arm got tired or something like that otherwise I'd start to worry about my job.
Wannabe1 you bring me tears of joy. You forgot the lollypops. CI Peter
Transit workers play with dollies and eat bugs ... are we SURE this is the image we wanna project? Heh.
I know, me too. I didn't know that it would clear at any speed though, I thought it was somehow modified before being put on a laserdisc.
There is actually one signal you can hit. If you ever get there again, ask for the alternate scenario at 138 St/Grand Concourse on the 4.
I put a 20 brake when I was going 25, went down to 17, cleared right as I passed it. Either that, or the speedometers aren't exact. Whatever.
Are you a T/O on the NYCT? I thought you were a teenager.
I was at the simulator on take your kid to work day. A TSS said the best one there was a 9 yo.
If a 16 year old kid can make almost a round trip on the A train, anyone can do it.
True, but he couldn't overcome a BIE
Nor a TSS checkpoint... or did he?
On a simulator?
3. There should be no (or virtually no) difference between D trains and A trains on the Central Park West express tracks. If there is a difference (and it might be more a matter of perception than reality), it is most likely in the way the trains are being operated by their Train Operators rather than in the equipment.
Next time you ride a D on CPW, post your response here.
I've ridden both, on many occasions. I have perceived no distinction in speed. (Perception is all I have to go by.)
The next time I ride a D train on Central Park West, I will not be riding an A train in the same place, on the same track, at the same time, since that is impossible. Therefore, there is no valid basis for comparison.
Again: the cars are designed to do the same thing in the same way under the same operating conditions. If they don't, unless there's a defect, it's because the Train Operator is doing something different.
David
I was videotaping along CPW at 110th St, 96th ST and 81st last Friday, and all the trains seemed to be going at nearly the same speed to me, regardless of the R-series in the consist.
--Mark
Well, get used to it, Pete. The TA is definitely slowing down the system with all sorts of timers; be they grade time, station time, approach, lunar white, or wheel detectors. And it costs lots of money to change them in order to speed up service, so don't look for them to change anytime soon.
I've noticed that the timers are mostly on mainline express tracks, and not on the local. Which might explain why local trains are only two or three minutes behind their express counterparts. Yet another reason to grab a local when it comes.
These timers kinda defeat the whole idea of express trains and services. They're the main reason why there isn't that much of difference on some lines between the express and local. Expresses are supposed to be fast, especially where there are long stretches between express stops. On the Central Park West Line and certain areas of the Queens Blvd Line that is not the case. As a kid (which wasn't that long ago) I remember how trains used to blow through these stretches. I suspect that the MTA is purposely trying to get more people to ride the local trains. If there are no safety issues involved, then I think that creating these timers are a complete waste of money. What can anyone do about them though?
Expresses are not supposed to be fast; they are supposed to make less stops.
I don't know about that, I think passengers generally favor expresses over locals because they believe they could get to their destination quicker with expresses. An express doing 15 kinda defeats that whole idea (not to mention the original planners intent of these routes).
I don't know about that, I think passengers generally favor expresses over locals because they believe they could get to their destination quicker with expresses.
That's probably why the average passenger would wait for an express. However, I think that expresses just make less stops as Alex L has said. With the expresses, you only gain about 2 or 3 minutes. For instance, the when an express train goes from 36th street to Pacific, it will usually pass 1 local and catch up to another local waiting at Pacific. However, if the local at 36 leaves even a minute earlier, the express will pass the local at Prospect Av or 9th St. From there, the express and the local have the same amount of distance to Pacific. By the time the express is at Pacific, I'll bet the local's one stop away at Union St. If they leave 36 together, however, the local will be passed at 25th St when it needs to stop. I'm pretty sure the local will be at 9th St or heading to Union by the time the express is at Pacific.
Also with Lexington Av express. 2 summers ago, when I needed to go to 68th st, I took the express to GCT because it's the last express station with both local and express on the same platform. On the first morning, I saw a 6 at BB. I though it's a local and there's a long way up Lex, so I stayed on the express. I passed no other locals on the way up and that 6 ended up at GCT not much later than the express pulled out.
Same with 6th Ave express. From W4 to 34, on the express feels fast and seem fast considering it's only 2 minutes to go 30 blocks. Everytime there was a F at W4 and I was on the express, the express gets to 34th first, of course. However, it amazes me that when I get off the train, the same F from W4 is pulling in. It's the same because I remembered the car numbers. How did the F do that? It makes 3 extra stops, yet it right behind the express... amazing.
Last week I made a connection with the same 3 at 72, 42, & 14.
And, thanks to the new WD on the express track at 96, the 3 probably missed the connection there.
They put in wheel detectors at 96 St southbound?
The ones entering 96 northbound, active only when the train will be crossed to the Upper B'way local, have been there since the Lenox Invert project
No Alex. No new WD's on Broadway.
No, northbound.
Perhaps they've been there for a while, but they've generally been inactive until now. Now they seem to be active whenever any train pulls in on the express track -- perhaps because 2 trains now merge in from the local.
You're forgetting about the comfort factor. When you take an express (especially during rush hour), you can sort of settle into a spot a little longer. On the local, at the 2 or 3 stops where the express whizzes by, you have people alighting and detraining, causing you and your neighbors to have to shift around, or perhaps crushing you against your fellow passengers even more as they enter the car. And we've all played the get-out-of-the-way-of-one-passenger-only-to-hear-a-nasal-exCUSE-me-of-another-whose-way-you-just-got-in game at stops during rush hour. Of course, that's just part of the commute, and we all have to deal with it. However, on an express train, especially on most IND routes, having less stops to wait for the shift of passengers can make the trip a little more pleasant, if not faster.
Express trains are much more crowded than locals, the exception being the 1 & 6 lines perhaps.
Still, fewer stops means fewer hassles. When I lived on the U.E.S., I did find the 6 was always less crowded than the 4 or 5 in the morning rush. Keep in mind that the continuous lack of 2nd Ave subway makes the Lex line a unique animal. My destination was only 4 local stops away anyway, so I just took the 6. Had I had a longer trip, I would have opted for the 4 or 5 and dealt with the crunch, but not the monotonous stop-stop-stop...
And, until the express was cancelled on Monday, the N in Astoria.
I see you're assuming that you have a seat. When I ride the subway, I assume that I'll stand, and occasionally I get a pleasant surprise. On the local I'm more likely to get a seat eventually, especially if I stay on past a transfer point to the express, because (as you say) the local has greater turnaround. Rapid turnaround is a good thing.
Good point about expresses and locals, N Train. I guess I'm one of those people who are convinced that local trains are the devil. Sometimes there just isn't a big difference between the express and local; such as the 4th Ave (Brooklyn) 6 Ave or Broadway El lines. Other times they're big differences between expresses and locals such as the Brighton or Flushing lines. I guess it depends on the number of stations the express skips on a line and the amount of traffic on the express tracks.
It's funny you should mention the Brighton Express and Local. If I'm not mistaken, the Brighton Express has no timers on it between Prospect Park and Sheepshead Bay in both directions. Surprising. I wonder how long it will be before the TA slows that down.
SSssshhhhhhhhhhh! :)
I second that!!!
Yeah, really.
You do have the annual fall slowdown northbound around Av. H. Takes away the most exciting part of the run.
Station timers, yes...grade timers, no(t yet).
David
Is it Sheepshead s/b that people overrun?
Not in MY days ... there IS a curve though ... S/B ... Brighton next. Home balls ...
Maybe it was Kings Hway express
It's not a bad station it just is faster than it looks. My theory is that with all that back and forth on the curve the wheels aren't in full contact with the rail for the brake to take fully.
Nyah Nyah yourself we only have 3mph deceleration not 4 like you guys did. Did you use the Fred Flintsone method to get that extra stopping power?
Heh ... back in MY day buster, we had TA issued Fred Flintstone rockasauarus shoes that not only stopped the train, but left SPLINTERS in the platform. :)
I remember that stop ... as I've confessed MANY times, I was a pussy on the handle ... you learned to do that with R1/9's the way they were (ahem) "maintained" ... no two stops the same. I guess that's why I can handle writing software to work with "Billyware" ... heh.
But yes, your MTA dress shoes were worn to a nub after two trips. :)
And yeah, you're right ... that's why ops in my time were "full serve, regular or premium first" and you'd INCH up to the marker ... just in case you passed it. (grin)
Didn't they have a coal stoker when you operated? Or was it still mule pulled?
It was done with cables and sails. Heh. Those hamsters at Kips Bay gave their all. :)
Other times they're big differences between expresses and locals such as the Brighton or Flushing lines.
The Brighton express saves seven minutes. The Flushing express saves six minutes.
Expresses save time for those traveling between express stops; locals save time for those traveling between local stops. That seems pretty obvious.
Check out 4 track (uptown local) from Franklin Ave. to Chambers St. if you think that there are not alot of timers on local tracks.
You are right. That whole northbound part of the Brooklyn IRT has nothing but timers on it between Franklin Avenue and Atlantic Avenue on both the Lexington and Seventh Avenue Lines. I never understood why.
The 7th Avenue Line between Wall and Chambers Streets in Manhattan I can see putting timers; after all, some of those curves are very sharp.
Police= New York's Finest
Firemen= New York's Bravest
Sanitation= New York's Strongest
TA= New York's Safest
Safety is the TA's only concern. Fast efficient service was erased from their list of priorities years ago.
Thankyou LuchAAA...makes me proud. CI Peter
If safety and speed are mutually exclusive (and I'm far from convinced they are), wouldn't you rather have the former?
Ron in Bayside, Stephen Baumann, and Peter Rosa and JC Gridlock got it right. (have I missed anyone else? Sorry.)
The location is in Boston’s South End under the old Orange Line, between Dover St. and Northampton St. stations. I lived in Boston for many years, and took shots in this area while the el was still running as well as during and after it’s demolition. Thompson Square station listed in one of the links is not in the South End, it was on the northern part of the Orange line across the river in Charlestown, that ended service several years earlier (1975?) than the southern half which ran until 1987.
RonInBayside needed two tries, though. My first guess, posted in response to the question, was the Jamaica El.
The Jamaica el would have been my first guess as well, due to the missing middle track. It didn't look anything like the Jamaica el otherwise, so it wasn't a very good guess -- and, besides, the definitive answer was posted by the time I first saw the thread.
Thompson Square station listed in one of the links is not in the South End...
I didn't mean to imply that the ambulance scene was at Thompson square; rather, the style of the structure in the Thompson Square photos was almost identical.
OK......what's the latest news on the R-143 30 clock ?
Any problems ? I heard of no setbacks. If so, can we be heading to a straight 30 days with no problems ?
The suspense is killing me !!
Bill "Newkirk"
On our little trip, I was told there was ONE reset somewhere around the 10th ... none since that I'm aware of ... looks like those babies are going to make the finish line unlike some of our friends on the IRT ...
>>looks like those babies are going to make the finish line unlike some of our friends on the IRT <<
HAH !! THE BMT STILL RULES !
Bill "Newkirk"
PUT that thing back in yer pants ... wanna go blind?!?!?! But yeah, B division size does seem to work better than the A division size. 16 ounce cans for 12 ounce cans or something like that.
The 10th is the last day of the test for what I was told a few day ago by the Company emp on the train. I possed this a few day ago, in a one of the other threads.
Robert
Knew I heard it somewhere. Given the experiences over on the other division, it's nice to see some new cars made right. Aside from the placement of the handle. I ain't giving up that one bit of kvetching easily. :)
Didn't they cheat one day - a false indication which disrupted service anyhow, and they didn't reset the clock ?
>>Didn't they cheat one day - a false indication which disrupted service anyhow, and they didn't reset the clock ? <<
I heard that was a false indication and not a mechanical fault that would have sidelined the trainset. Even if it was a fault and the clock had to be reset, look how flawless they are so far. Got my fingers crossed.
Bill "Newkirk"
So how do we explain this sudden success?
Are all of the functioning parts the same as the R142 parts -- which have now been de-bugged -- just attached to a wider frame?
>>So how do we explain this sudden success?<<
Maybe the R-142A was the ultimate guinea pig ! Since all the bugs were worked out, they just applied that to the R-143s as production just maybe underway.
BTW - I photographed and rode the R-143s today. You can tell they have been running 25 days straight. They are getting grungy inside and out. A Kawasaki employee with a clipboard told me that this was day 25 on the 30 day clock.
Bill "Newkirk"
NO......R142 parts are not Kawasaki.....R142As share with R143. There are many commonly shared parts but Bomba and Kawa are different fruits. The MAJOR difference between R142s and R142As is undercar: Kawasakis trucks will last far longer on NYC trackage. CI Peter
There was also one day that the destination signs and automated announcements weren't functioning (due to shuttle bus service in the middle of the line).
Let us keep our fingers crossed that the R-143s make it to the 30 day mark without a hitch.
#3 West End Jeff
Let's not. The more problems are discovered now, the fewer have to be fixed later, at the TA's expense.
When you buy a dishwasher with a 60-day warranty, do you baby it for those 60 days so you won't have to use the warranty? Of course not -- you make it work as hard as you can so that if it's not up to snuff, you'll know before you have to worry about repairs.
It is in the TA's interests to allow the 30-day clock to run as long as possible. The manufacturer would have been thrilled if the TA had dispensed with the clock entirely.
Agreed entirely. Kawasaki is probably a far more better manufacturer of trainsets than Bombardier and the TA has only recently learned some hard learned lessons in replacing the Redbird fleet. We're busy discovering new maintainance problems holding up the R142 fleet for RTO duty. Balking about the announcements, seating and lighting is BS....what counts to NYC TA is getting people to work on time. CI Peter
Given how much the TA (i.e., the riding public) has paid for the fancy announcements, seating, and lighting (no, I don't have a number), balking about these systems is very much appropriate.
Are the Kawasaki built R-62s better than the Bombardier R-62As?
#3 West End Jeff
Mean Distance Between Failures, October 2001:
R-62: 272,365
R-62A: 149,176
David
That the R62 has such a high MDBF is truly remarkable. Those cars acclumulate a lot of mileage in a hurry and spend lots of time on the road. It is express to Utica during the day, yet on the midnite it is all local with a longer run the New Lots. This means that while other lines lay up most of their fleet at night, they can't due to the additional time it takes to make a round trip to/from Woodlawn.
That the R62 has such a high MDBF is truly remarkable. Those cars acclumulate a lot of mileage in a hurry and spend lots of time on the road. It is express to Utica during the day, yet on the midnite it is all local with a longer run the New Lots. This means that while other lines lay up most of their fleet at night, they can't due to the additional time it takes to make a round trip to/from Woodlawn.
Only 84% of the "Remarkable" R62's is available for servie. Only 77% are currently required for peak service. It would appear that the maintenance services have a very long time to keep them maintained.
By contrast the 88% of the R62A's are available for service and 80% are used during peak periods.
Of course, the availability king title goes to the R33S's with 89% of the fleet available and 82% being used during pead service.
If you keep bowing to the false god of MDBF you will find that 10 minute rush hour headways will become the norm. :-)
In the case of the 143 out on the Canarsie line, it does appear as though THIS trainset was built well. TA's gotten MIGHTY fussy lately and is looking for any little detail to hit the reset over, especially after the acceptance problems for the others. These might actually turn out to NOT be TA citrus ...
What's disappointing in my mind is how forgiving the TA has been of major design flaws in the automated signage/announcement system.
Heh. Well, if that's all that's still broken, I for one would just cut the wires and declare victory. :)
And let passengers guess where the train is going? That might be okay on the L -- but it will cause problems on the M, which shares trackage with the J/Z, N, R, and W and shares the platform at DeKalb with the Q.
Besides, the riding public paid a lot of money for a system that so far has been a lot less reliable than a set of rollsigns -- even the kind on the Redbirds with publicly accessible knobs.
The riding public has unknowingly paid a lot of money for trainsets that do not always let them know where they are or where they're going. They do not even know how lucky they might be in getting to their destinations on schedule. The manufacturer of the trainsets along with their vendors assume sole responsibility for delivering defective equipment.....TA placed a hold on acceptance of any new R142s for a reason. CI Peter
I don't disagree with you in any way shape or form. I guess I'm a product of my own TA environment. When you would literally KISS the platform when you got to where you had planned on, and in one piece. BONUS points if it was the same day you LEFT for that location. :)
Thus, I'm remarkably easy to please. Your mileage may vary. If the end sign tells me what train it is, I'll be responsible for the rest and knowing where my stop is long before I get there. Used to be like that.
But the first time I rode the R-143 (during the L GO), the end sign was turned off! So were the side signs, internal signs, automated announcements, and (surprising, but not critical by any means) door chimes. It simply could not handle the fact that it was only going as far as Myrtle. Even the R-46 does better than that (the side signs can be programmed to display any B Division station, although not necessarily with a route letter, and the end signs are, of course, independent of any automation).
Heh. Well, a contractor will build what they're told to AS they're told to, so it would appear there could have been some Bronx Handshake in the design. Still, I'd be willing to forgive something like that in an unusual circumstance. Did you MAKE it to Myrtle? That'd be my biggest concern. Up here where I live, if the lights are on, life is good. :)
Do you mean that the announcements and signs only work right when the train runs it's normal route? If a run anything other than it's normal route the announcements and signs don't work. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
There is no automated announcement and destination sign menu programed into an L train operating between Canarise and Myrtle/Wycoff. That is one of the criticisms to the new car engineering people that RTO has reported. It is up to the powers beyond the scope of RTO to make the situation proper.
I'm CERTAIN it can be easily programmed into the system, just wasn't done prior to the need. After all, we managed to upload over 1500 pictures from Harry's place into the computer before the train crashed. :)
Kidding!
Can't they at least overide the system and make live station announcements? Although I still can't see in this era of computers that they can't program alternate routes in addition to the normal route.
No offense, but these are NEW, PROGRAMMABLE cars ... what we seem to have here is the lack of foreskin to have "programmed in" the situation at hand. Lacking such a solution to "what if it terminates at a strange stop?" since the 143's are in TESTING on road duty, the option was likely not there to bring it back to the barn for "regrooving" ... since the 143's are under "test status" and since the change of operating mode was a GO of some sorts, sure as getout wouldn't be fair to the vendor under "reichstad gepruft" (testing) to make them change the annoucements without a "time out" ...
I understand that a lot of people may be unhappy with the subway for whatever slights there may be in a given day - I remember a time when the subways were a *JOKE* and having visited after nearly 30 years absence from the "system", I was not only impressed by how it all runs TODAY, but have stains in the pants that will NOT wash out over how WELL it's running now.
Geez, get OVER it ... the 143's are NOT in service ... they're getting stomped BRONX style in service, and those babies are taking a licking and keep on ticking ... bad signage? bad announces? Hell, let's see them do that on day 31 through day 400,067 ... unimportant in the greter scheme AT THE MOMENT! (emphasis)
"what we seem to have here is the lack of foreskin to have "programmed in" the situation at hand"
WHAT?!
oh my!
Oy GEVALT - as joe would say from time to time
Live station announements were being made by the conductor....I am sure that the missing program (Canarsie to Myrtle/Wycoff) will be programed in.
They can make manual announcements, but there are no rollsigns to be manually cranked.
well i saw the R143 go by today and it look as sharp as a thistle.
Let me guess. You took a picture from the front of an R-42 passing the other way at Sutter. Funny, so did I!
Isn't it just amazing.....SOAC and we can't update the displays or announcements. It isn't beyond the scope of RTO to make the situation proper...revenue means MONEY and if the trainset is defective....a REFUND is DUE. Bombardier and Kawasaki have failed to provide Car Equipment Department the tools to update systems...they're keeping the work to themselves...and so has the vendors. CI Peter
The signs and announcements only work on programmed routes. Any deviation, and not only are there no automated announcements, there are no route signs.
IMO, the R-143 should have no difficulty being programmed to make any subset of the L stops. The destination sign would give the last stop programmed, and announcements would still work. The R-142(A) should be programmable for all mainline IRT stations, allowing, say, a 2 to be rerouted up the East Side (either for a GO or on the spur of the moment). It should also figure out, based on the stops it's programmed to make, whether it's a local or an express.
Knob Rotation kicks ass. I love my 4 To woodlawn as south terminal and 111st Corona as my north terminal. Bou howdy go figure that one.
(Don't blame me -- I didn't do it.)
niceee
I have a hex so i've been known to play around with the R-32 side signs as well
A lost Redbird. Hmmmmm.
No. Special GO !!! Start at 138th..go around the Ferry and continue up to 96th !!!
They are not major design flaws.....the automated announcements and the destination displays do work flawlessly. Problem is that the system is still too new and that inspection crews do not have the laptops in each team to do the work.......in fact, TA does not have available to us the necessary equipment and software to update anything. These problems still remain in the hands of the vendors and TA is NOT forgiving of these problems. David, you know me by now and how much I'm interested in doing this work. You have read my postings AND KNOW MY ASSIGNMENTS. The work that is being done is to make the R142 trainsets reliable for everyday usage. The TA was 'forced' into a situation of 'international cooperation' that has yet to benefit the public. It is a sorry situation when the work that needs to be done will be done by US when the warranties expire. As always, the R142s remain safe transportation. 'Let MTA get you there...Car Inspectors assure your safety.' CI Peter
The warranty period is 5 years, correct? I think that's an awefully short time considering the life span of a subway car is supposed to be 50+ years. It's like having only a 9 day warranty on your VCR :)
There's a lot more things that can go wrong on a train than a VCR too.
Shawn.
I don't expect R142s to run for five years with the truck they are equipped with. TA isn't going to play games anymore with manufacturers and vendors...the public expects up to date transports and demands service. Nuff said
Sure hope you guys kept some of those redbird trucks in the back of the carbarn ... can we say "retro" boys and girls? :)
180th crew foreman has me pegged for sub work on Redbirds...really good feeling, really confidence building. I do know for a fact that there will be some 'Redbird reserve' held but I for one want to see an end to the nasty-dirty work...my job changes every day. I'm towards the last page for the 'pick' and like the day troubles crew. I found my work, a home and friends. CI Peter
That is true. I wonder if the T/A is trying to work the hell out of the R-143s to see if they're up to snuff?
#3 West End Jeff
I have no idea.
If the R-143's are really working as well as the test results would indicate, great. I'm just worried that the TA is engaging in grade inflation, which isn't good for any of us.
When we rode it last Christmas, it was chock full of people with stopwatches timing the doors, a full cab people with clipboards and test equipment out the wazoo ... I don't think they're playing around with any of the testing ... and knowing what trains SHOULD do, I can tell ya, I had my eye peeled too and every aspect I could detect was flawless ...
Okay, Selkirk, here we go again. The R143s are running over B division, but former BMT trackage. I still think of the R1/9s you loved as filth, steel dust loaded, smoky, bare-light-bulb cattle cars that huffed and puffed in their and long, depressing underground stretches. Fine for the C and E lines. They should never have been allowed on a BMT line. Ever.
Huff and puff?!? Come on. Moaned, groaned, grunted, snarled and hissed, yes. Those old timers could MOVE. Unless you had a train with a bunch of bad motors.
Guys: don't paralyze your fingers crossing.....grab a 40 oz. CI Peter
Heh. I managed to take some time at ground level next to a 143 and had a GOOD look around them. The battery box on the B cars HAS air holes. :)
They do look well built, felt good on the rails and moved. No funny noises. Seriously, I expect them to do well and you KNOW what a pain in the butt I can be when judging railcars. Heh. I'd go into more detail but let's see where this thread goes ...
i can't comment on R143 tech yet...I am sure they are better cars. CI Peter
Not having been in a situation of tearing any down in a shop, can't say I'd be qualified. But IMPRESSIONS from riding and taking looks at things I knew to look for left me mighty impressed so far ... and the Canarsie line has just about everything you'd want to test a trainset with ... they're still running. Just a few days left before they reach the finish line ...
You're qualified. Certified QSL CI Peter
If all goes well with the test, when should the new sets start coming, and will they also go on the other eastern div. lines, J & M
The prevailing wisdom that the R143 will make up all L line consists with the leftovers going to the M. The M is presumed to go OPTO for shuttle operations when that happens.
What does OPTO mean?
OPTO is short for One Person Train Operation.
#3 West End Jeff
Ebay has these rapid chargers for $25 the go for 80 to 100 bucks so go check it out
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1317163667
antique ht radio battery chargers? WB2SGT CI Peter
Is Metro-North going to stop at Penn Station? Is the LIRR going to stop at Grand Central? When? I caught the end of a Penny Crone report on FOX5 News (I love Penny Crone haha what a man) about it and I was wondering why; because both could actually benefit me and my co-workers. Thanks!
Is Metro-North going to stop at Penn Station?
The MTA has plan for it to do so once the LIRR East Side Connector lets LIRR run to GCT and frees up some Penn Station slots. See their Penn Station Access study documents on the MTA website.
Is the LIRR going to stop at Grand Central?
Yes. It should open in 12 years or so. Construction has already started in the Sunnyside Yards to connect the LIRR mainline to the lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel. See the MTA's East Side Access project website.
The only MN trains seriously under consideration for going to Penn are New Haven Line trains. Everything else is SubTalk fantasy.
The only MN trains seriously under consideration for going to Penn are New Haven Line trains. Everything else is SubTalk fantasy.
I'm not so sure. Read the MTA study I referenced. They're at least LOOKING at what it would take to run all three lines. My take on likelihood is:
NEW HAVEN: Most likely ... run 'em over Hell Gate, catenary already exists for Amtrak.
HUDSON LINE: Next likely, trackage already there following Amtrak's Empire Line. Need to EITHER add third rail from Spuyten Duyvil to Penn (for Croton-Harmon and below) OR run only diesels (entire Hudson Line).
HARLEM LINE: Least likely, probably fantasy. The routings are too tough. Either they add too much time (through The Hub and back up to Spuyten Duyvil and the Empire Line) or are tricky to build (to get Harlem Line onto reverse-direction New Haven to then turn again onto Hell Gate).
HUDSON LINE: Next likely, trackage already there following Amtrak's Empire Line. Need to EITHER add third rail from Spuyten Duyvil to Penn (for Croton-Harmon and below) OR run only diesels (entire Hudson Line).
I don't know if that will work. They can't run diesels into Penn Station.
I don't know if that will work. They can't run diesels into Penn Station.
Thought they couldn't run diesels through the Hudson tunnels. This doesn't use those.
AND, aren't the Hudson Line diesels actually bimode to use the Park Avenue Tunnel?
AND, Amtrak's Empire trains sure ain't electrics, and THEY use Penn Station ... and those Turbos are smoky and smelly ....
AND, aren't the Hudson Line diesels actually bimode to use the Park Avenue Tunnel?
The problem with that is those diesels use a different type of third rail. LIRR is over the rail. Metro North is under the rail.
The problem with that is those diesels use a different type of third rail. LIRR is over the rail. Metro North is under the rail.
Oh, right. DUH!
Still ... couldn't they run diesel on the West Side to the start of the Connector south of 42nd Street? I have to think there's some way to run MN third rail from there into one platform at Penn, since the Connector does NOT have third rail now.
And what about those Amtrak diesels from Empire service ... ???
And what about those Amtrak diesels from Empire service ... ???
Good question. Anyone know how Amtrak hanldles that problem?
They are dual-mode, running as electrics from third rail (as described earlier in the thread) into Penn.
Yeah I know, but the confusion arose over the different third rail for M-N and LIRR. I guess then, they use diesel until Penn and then use use LIRR version of third rail. So basically, Metro North would have to have dedicated LIRR equipped dual modes to operate the Hudson into Penn.
Not necessarily. MN could equip the entire west Side line with MN's own version of third rail, then use several dedicated tracks at Penn that also use the MN version. That would be easier all around -- for both Amtk and MN.
MN could equip the entire west Side line with MN's own version of third rail, then use several dedicated tracks at Penn that also use the MN version.
We need to know where Amtrak's dual-modes go electric ... is it around 42nd Street or at the north end of the West Side line? In either case, I think you would have at least a short segment of the Connector into Penn that would require BOTH kinds of third rail. Is THAT possible?
They are dual-mode, running as electrics from third rail (as described earlier in the thread) into Penn.
Including the Turbos ???
One more issue: not all the route from Spuyten Duyvel (sp?) to Penn Station is 2 tracks.
What do you mean? Are there stretches where there is only a single track?
- Lyle Goldman
Other posts on this site have mentioned the bridge over the Harlem River and the connector at the south end near Penn Station as being a single track.
Another issue that has been discussed and not resolved, as far as I know, is what kind of power would you use on Hudson Line to Penn trains? MN and LIRR use different third rails. This is not a problem on the New Haven Line because those cars already are outfitted with both MN 3rd rail and pantographs.
I suppose you could outfit the link with overhead wire and use New Haven Line style rolling stock, but this still makes the whole project much more complicated than New Haven Line trains going into Penn.
What's the problem? Put in MN 3rd rail. Hudson, Harklem and NH plus Amtrak can use it. Then dedicate several trcaks at Penn to this service, using MN 3rd rail instead of LIRR 3rd rail.
Dedicated tracks sounds like the snag to me. You certainly can't dedicate any tracks in either of the yards or the tunnel under the East River. Also, Amtrak doesn't use MN 3rd rail, but that's not an issue.
I think you'd have to put in overhead wire, which of course isn't impossible.
You can dedicate the tracks on the west side line and into Penn. That would use MN's 3rd rail. No need to dedicate tracks under the East River. MN's New Haven line can use the existing catenary wire all the way over the Hell Gate bridge and into Penn, like Amtrak does.
You can dedicate the tracks on the west side line and into Penn. That would use MN's 3rd rail.
Actually I suspect that Amtrak Empire service & MN Hudson Line trains might have to share tracks.
No one's answered an earlier question: Can you have tracks wired for both third rail (of one kind of another) AND catenary? 'Cause some part of the Connector has catenary to run the Amtrak trains into Penn. That means to run Hudson Line trains in, you have to add MN third rail to a catenary track. Any examples of this anywhere in the system?
Surely the 32nd/33rd Street tunnels under the East River must have both catenary (for Amtrak) and 3rd rail (for LIRR).
Surely the 32nd/33rd Street tunnels under the East River must have both catenary (for Amtrak) and 3rd rail (for LIRR).
Doh! Right. There you have it. (Unless for some obscure reason 2 of the 4 have catenary and the other 2 have third-rail ... any T/Os wanna comment?)
They have to all have thrid rail because the LIRR uses them all. At least 1 or 2 have to have catenary for Amtrak.
If I recallcorrectly, some of the tracks in the Sunnyside Yard and leading to the East River tubes have both third rail and catenary (except where Amtrak diverges to go north into the Bronx). The Hudson tube does not, because no third-rail service operates that way.
Do any of the Amtrak trains on the Empire and Adirondack lines run on electricity? If so, what kind do they use?
- Lyle Goldman
Do any of the Amtrak trains on the Empire and Adirondack lines run on electricity? If so, what kind do they use?
Sure... all of them do. It's the kind they generate on board :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One more issue: not all the route from Spuyten Duyvel (sp?) to Penn Station is 2 tracks
You sure? I thought they double-tracked the whole thing several years ago.
You're right for the actual Connector itself (the late '80s part between the West Side Line and the Penn interlocking). It was expensive enough to thread a single track under the foundations of the tall buildings above it -- they actually had to transfer load from one foundation column and remove the column altogether to get the alignment in.
The Spuyten Duyvil Bridge is single-tracked -- though years ago it was double-tracked, so I assume they could do it again.
Does anyone know what the first equipment that was given the 30 day test was?
I think it may have been the R46, brought on by all the problems with the R44's, but I don't really know.
The earliest 30-day test I know of was the R-62, in 1983, which followed the R-44 (just about everything) AND R-46 (mostly undercarriage) problems.
David
Yes, the debacles with the R44 & R46 led to a major change in the way the TA procured new cars.
Would the R-44s and R-46s pass the 30 day test? Perhaps not. I'm sure they still have problems keeping them running at times to this day.
#3 West End Jeff
Who on this board rode those BMT Multisections??
I think those were really cute trains...too bad they scrapped them all.
Also...
What color were they exactly??
They look brown in some color photos from the era, maroon/dark red in others.
Are there any serviving units today?
No, all were scrapped when they were retired in 1961.
-- Ed Sachs
"No, all were scrapped when they were retired in 1961."
Which was before they thought of saving cars for historical purposes, probably..
Still...
Does anyone know what color the Multis really were??
They seemed to be the same color as the Standards, "weathered".
I hate to say this, but there are no surviving Multi-Section units today. They were all scrapped by 1962 to my best guess.
#3 West End Jeff
I rode the Multis in service in their last regular home, #10 Myrtle-Chambers. I didn't know their history, then, and didn't much care for them. They weren't terrible attractive or comfortable, but were they ever SPEEDY.
Think R-10 with a hotshot motorman but faster.
But what COLOR were they??
:)
Greller says they were Light Brown with Silver roofs, though his rendering on the cover of Cars of the BMT is rather reddish.
At the time they were retired, the TA didn't wash cars, so virtually all equipment, the Multis included, were a sort of neutral grayish brown (I guess you would call it), a combination of dirt, grease and steel dust.
I have that book, and it's fantastic...
Also, his other book, NYC Subway Cars, is great.
I saw the Multi pictures in there, but I wasn't sure of their exact color because in the color pictures of them, all the colors look a little off.
Thanks for your help, I appreciate it, as always.
:)
The word "grimey" seems an appropriate adjective to describe what all cars looked like by the early 1960's.
>>But what COLOR were they??<<
I have a slide taken at E.105th St on the Canarsie Line and the cars are painted brown. Whether that was a repaint or original, I'm not sure. But most of the older BMT cars like the Standards and D-Types were brown when they were new. I was told the same color brown as a UPS truck. BTW - the E105th St shot was real old. there was nothing on either side of the tracks. The sticks man !!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> the same color brown as a UPS truck. <<<
But unwashed for twenty years and with absolutely no reflective shine. If you ran a finger along the outside surface when a car was in a station, it felt gritty, and your finger was extremely dirty.
Tom
I've heard that the articulation of the multi's allowed them to traverse the sharp curves of the eastern division at higher speeds than other cars. They also had horrible brakes and often overshot stations.
Wish the R143's were designed this way. If you're gonna permanently link them in 4 car sets, why not use articulation?
Grellar's book has a story of a multi-section running through the Myrtle Avenue station, through the switch over to the Myrtle Avenue El, up the ramp, and then finally stopping at Central (I think).
All with no apparent reason.
Yup, I read that story. Talk about lousy brakes! No wonder these trains ran non stop on the 14th St line in Brooklyn.
I've heard those stories too, but never experienced it myself. From what I've heard, it had more to do with a control issue than brakes, per se.
The account in Grellar's book made it sound like it was funny. "Boy, those cars did just like to run," is how I remembered it.
You could have had a major disaster at the crossover, or running into the rear end of one of the wooden el cars that were still running on the Myrtle.
These were the days before radio communications.
Dumb question: could the multi's run on the lower Myrtle Ave el safetly? What about the experimental Zepher & Bluebirds?
The Multi's could run on any of the elevateds since they were lightweight cars. So could the Zephyr and the Green Hornet.
#3 West End Jeff
The Multi's were 10 feet wide. Ditto for the other Zephyr, Green Hornet and Bluebirds. The lower Myrtle could take only 9 foot wide cars.
So a simple platform shaving was all that was needed? No problems with excessive weight?
May also have had problems with signals, station houses, etc.
I'm sure if the platforms were shaved on the lower portion of the Myrtle Ave. line the Multi's could have theoretically operated on that portion of the Myrtle Ave. El. On the other hand, other things could have gotten in the way.
#3 West End Jeff
It appeals to me that the antique construction of the lower myrtle might have caused clearance problems with the station houses.
It was not at all certain the lower myrt was going to be abandoned when the BUs were junked in favor of the Qs. If the platforms could have been trimmed without major work, it would have made much more sense to use the Multis than the Qs, at least after 1961, when the R27s started coming in.
Unfortunately the Multi's were retired after 1961 and subsequently scrapped.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, that's my point. The Qs substituted for the BUs in 1958. When the R27s made the Multis surplus in 1961 they could have been used on the lower Myrtle if it were possible to run 10' cars. At the time the Multis were only about 25 years old.
They were stupid when they scrapped the Multi's in 1961. If they were willing to shave the platforms on the lower Myrtle Ave. El at that time there would have been more "modern" cars running on it for at least a few more years.
#3 West End Jeff
However, by 1961, the Multis were suffering badly from deferred maintenance, and were in much worse shape than the Qs, which, by the way, were essentially rebuilt from the ground up in 1938, so in a sense, they were newer than the Multis by a couple of years.
-- Ed Sachs
If I'm not mistaken, they were having some problems with the brakes on the Multi's from accounts that I've read about them.
#3 West End Jeff
NO PROBLEM! We ran R1/9's also. No brakes, no problem. That's what DOOR CUTOUTS were for! :)
The door cutouts were the "Emergency Brakes" in a sense.
#3 West End Jeff
Heh. So was standing in the doorway if they opened up anyway. :)
Interesting "Emergency Brakes" to say the least.
#3 West End Jeff
Well ... they USUALLY stopped where you wanted them to ... :)
How about the times they didn't stop. That DID happen on occasion.
#3 West End Jeff
HEY! You busta my balls ... yeah, sometimes they didn't ... but when we DIDN'T raise command in a dead spot, I'd open the door after dropping a few switches, step into the car after the long buzz and say "sorry folks, this train's out of service - please exit this car to the NEXT car - EVERYBODY off ...
There would usually be 5-8 people left who would provide that MTA "free dumb look" we'd hear so much about ... to those geese once the car cleared, would come the NEXT level of "customer service" ... "I suppose you didn't hear this - We've had a MAJOR brake failure and this train is out of service - you're lucky you weren't KILLED ... DAMN lucky! This train is out of service and going to the yards. For those who STILL didn't get the message, it was - "there's a bomb." Didn't impress the geese either. Wonder for WHY my attitude? :)
Maybe we could put Osama Bin Laden on a train with NO brakes and no operator. Then let the train roll somewhere in the yard and bump into something. Then if were lucky he can be knocked unconscious at the very least.
#3 West End Jeff
They could have been overhauled, like some Standards were in 1959/60. I'd think metal cars would be preferable to what were essentially 50 yo wooden cars.
They had some SOUL and didn't require platform shavings to platforms that were already pretty narrow in the middle of the el to begin with. The lower MYRT was pretty much THIN island platforms to begin with. I remember them ... they were too narrow with the Q's on them ...
The Myrtle el platforms don't look any more narrower than the current J platforms over Fulton St:
TRUE ... but if the Q's weren't *IRT* width, those platforms would have really made ya think about giving up your lunch ... REMEMBER that the Q's were IRt width, not BMT width and thus you had a little over a foot of platform width than you would have ended up with if they were shaved for Multis ...
If the stations were converted to BMT width, the platforms would have to be shaved back a grand total of 6 inches on each side.
Yep ... since they're island platforms, they'd be one foot narrower across ... and those platforms weren't terribly wide in the first place since they occupied a trackwidth had the el been a three-tracker like the IRT el's we're used to today.
That platform hardly seems to be so narrow that a foot difference would be noticable. We're not talking a high-capacity line here. But as others said, shaving the platforms would mean that the station houses would have to be narrowed as well.
No, but having USED the Myrt myself, the platforms WERE narrower than many others elsewhere in the system. You'd NOTICE it ...
If the Multis were too wide for the lower Myrtle, Lexington and 5th Ave Els, how were the Green Hornet, Zephyr and #8000 Bluebird able to navigate the entire Fulton St. El? I also read that a Multi ran its entire length in non-revenue service just after delivery in 1936. Weren't portions of the FS El built to carry the BMT Standards from Nostrand to Atlantic Aves? That being said, the rest of the line dated back to the nineteenth century.
Carl M.
Carl: When the C-Types were placed in service the platforms on the Fulton Street El were cut back to accomadate 10 foot wide cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, parts of the Fulton St. el were upgraded in anticipation of the Ashland Place connection being built. It never was. The portion used by A trains today was an extension of the original route and was built to subway standards right from the start.
I'm not sure the Myrt couldn't have been altered to accomodate the Multis, my question is whether the station houses, and not just the platforms, would have had to have been altered.
The Fulton Street Line was differently constructed than the Myrtle or Lex. It had mostly side platform stations and the station houses were not adjacent to the trackways. Also, the BMT had much greater incentive to go to the expense and trouble of making alterations to operate wider (therefore more commodious and modern) equipment on the Fulton Street Line since that was its second "bread-and-butter" line after the Brighton.
And it was intended to be converted to subway usage with the connection to Dekalb Ave anyway.
The entire Fulton St el was rebuilt to handle 10' cars, right?
Yes. Park Row to Lefferts.
As a matter of fact, they upgraded a portion of the Fulton St. El so that it could handle the BMT Standards. Unfortunately their efforts never came to fruit as the connection at Gold St. that would have connected the Fulton St. El to the DeKalb Ave. station was never built.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm trying to imagine the nightmare Dekalb Ave would be had the BMT got all it's lines approved:
1. Brighton express
2. Brighton local
3. Fulton St (i'm assuming 2 routes due to the traffic this line handled)
4. West End
5. Sea Beach
6. Culver
7. Staten Island
8. Fourth Ave local
How on earth would Dekalb Ave be able to handle all this traffic?
It is daunting, but once upon a time handling a number of lines through a complex interlocking seemed to be manageable.
True, but I don't see being able to operate 9 different routes through Dekalb Ave. even back then. I think the traffic would limit headways on all lines to levels that would seriously overcrowd everything.
I'm sure that DeKalb would have been able to handle the extra traffic from the Fulton St. El if the connection was built.
#3 West End Jeff
Christ R27-R30 lists the fullest BMT route proposals through DeKalb. In the 1950s, rush hour service was quite busy. Using BMT route numbers, these nine services operated:
1. Brighton Express, Local, Special
2. Fourth Avenue Local, Special
3. West End Express, Local
4. Sea Beach Express
5. Culver Express
In the morning Brighton Specials, Fourth Avenue Specials, West End Expresses, Sea Beach Expresses, and Culver Expresses all skipped DeKalb. In the evening, Brighton Specials couldn't skip DeKalb, but all the others skipped it.
Busy place. Even during the night, there were Brighton locals (via Bridge or Tunnel, depending on the hour), Fourth Avenue locals, West End expresses, Sea Beach expresses (Sea Beach skipped 24 hours a day), and Culver locals. Not much there now at night--two services instead of five? No wonder so few ride there anymore.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed,
I don't rememberthe Brighton specials skipping DeKalb in the TA era. They would have had to pass the platforms at DeKalb without stopping, since there was no access to/from Brighton to the bypass tracks, either before or after the DeKalb reconfiguration.
Paul Matus writes,
>I don't remember the Brighton specials skipping DeKalb in the TA era. >They would have had to pass the platforms at DeKalb without stopping, >since there was no access to/from Brighton to the bypass tracks,
>either before or after the DeKalb reconfiguration.
Northbound, there was a bypass connection and the Brighton specials skipped DeKalb on that track. The bypass track was probably the first piece of track to be removed for the DeKalb rebuilding. The space needed to be rebuilt so the Brighton would have access to both tracks at the DeKalb platform. I wonder if the current track switch that provides that access might not be the same one that was in place in pre-rebuild days. If I hadn't ridden it a few times, I might have had doubts. (My regular train was the Fourth Avenue Special during the '50s, though I also used the other three expresses on Fourth Avenue. One of the most frustrating things would be to be looking out the railfan window after leaving Pacific and having to wait for the Brighton Special as it pulled in ahead of us.)
On the southbound side of DeKalb, I don't think the bypass tracks were ever connected to the Brighton track. There always seemed to be all sorts of stuff piled up there.
It's still interesting to me that except for longer platforms and losing Myrtle Avenue station, all that DeKalb did was to move the delays from the northern end of DeKalb to the south, but with both sides of the bridge operating, there were still delays coming off the bridge.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Late in 1959 the TA decided to "Rebuild" Standards in the 2400,2500,2600 and 2700 series. The 2400 series incorporated the 4000 series BX trailers. They were numbered
2400-4000-2401 thru 2498-4049-2499. Beginning in late 1960 the BX trailers were removed from these units. 2400 thru 2467 received an "A" motor in place of the former trailer. Cars were now numbered 2400-2615-2401 thru 2466-2649-2467 . 2615-2649 accounts for 35 cars but there were only 34 sets. This was because at least on 2600 had been scrapped by this time but I don't know which one. 2468-2499 were coupled into two car sets and called "BT's". Note that from about 1924 to 1927 2480-2499 had operated as two car BT sets.
The first BT to reappear in service was 2470-2471 and was in service by January 1961.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So that means there were some rebuilt single A units.
ALL the single A units in the 2600 and 2700 series were rebuilt. Some were incorporated with the 2400s to make new B units, and the rest remained A units.
>>ALL the single A units in the 2600 and 2700 series were rebuilt<<
And let's not forget #2899, the only 2800 series Standard to be rebuilt. #2899 was coupled with # 2774 and #2775. #2775 as we know is in retirement in the Nutmeg State !
Bill "Newkirk"
And appears to be the only surviving Pressed Steel square-deck-roof Standard left.
Unless there's one sitting in a field somewhere as a chicken condo.
>>Unless there's one sitting in a field somewhere as a chicken condo.<<
You know Paul, funny you should mention that. I was always thinking of a BMT Standard body being used as a chicken coop on a farm un New Jersey not far from New York.
I based this on a legend that when the Standards were being scrapped and their bodies were being cut up, only one Standard #2321 was shipped whole. The legend is that the truck with the car body was followed but only part of the way. Something about taking a different turn as opposed to the correct one that would have taken it to Sarnelli's. Someone else on this board mentioned that too a year ago, so, that's two sources I heard this from.
Bill "Newkirk"
Shipped whole "to" or "from" Sarnelli's? I remember most of the Standards sitting in Sarnelli's were initially one piece.
Either way, maybe we'll turn up a pic of a "lost" Standard some day. It's a shame that it seems just about every variant of an R1/9 was saved, but you can't make up a full-length train or either Standards ot Triplexes. Well, close on the Triplex, but no cigar.
There may be some pieces lying around of scrapped equipment, but I don't know of any listing. I once saw a pic of the center section of a Triplex sitting near the roadside somewhere.
Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention to car numbers as well as marker lights in the olden days, so I don't know if I ever saw any A units on the Canarsie line.
Was there any special name for that speckled green color paint that they used for the interiors of the rebuilt Standards. I remember (as a very young child, of course!) wondering how they got the paint to be that way.
Patterson green, I think it was called (named for 1950s TA Chairman Charles Patterson?).
David
Did some of the redbirds have the same interior. I seem to remember some R-21's with it....Was that the failed automated shuttle cars ?
HartBus:
Good to hear from you. The cars that you are thinking about are R-22's 7515-7524 which were the last ten built. They had a rigidized aluminum interior and used a dark green plextone paint. They also tested the pink fibreglass seats that became standard on R-26,27,28,30,30A. They always seemed to be very dark cars and the dark green paint clashed with the pink seats. (Some will say the color is coral).
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
It wasn't "Patterson Green," that was the non-speckled color.
It was some kind of new invention in paint, in which the speckles and squibbles were formulated in such a way that it could be applied with a spray can. It had some kind of trade name liek "Plexiflo" or something. Maybe I'm being influenced by remembering "Axiflow," which were those fans on the pre-AC Welch equipment which tried to make up for the lack of adequate air exchange by blasting you with megavolumes of warm air.
The spray-on speckled paint which was popular in the 50s went
by the brand name of Zolotone
Oh, but after reading Bill's post, the name Plextone sounds
more familiar as the original brand name.
Our house in South Bend had that paint originally on the interior walls. It was white with black speckles.
Besides the Standards, I also remember seeing the same speckled paint scheme on the interiors of the Steinway Low-V's the one time I rode them on the 3rd ave. el during the 60's. Definately worlds removed from the old Interborough dark green.
There were also ten of the R-22's on the IRT with the speckled green interiors...cars 7515 through 7524. They came from St. Louis this way -- they also had different storm door windows than the rest of the R-22's.
I believe the paint was called "Zolatone". Anyone???
>>> I'm being influenced by remembering "Axiflow," which were those fans on the pre-AC Welch equipment which tried to make up for the lack of adequate air exchange by blasting you with megavolumes of warm air <<<
I remember when the R-15 made its debut I thought the Axiflow fans were air conditioning. After a few trips on hot July days I quickly learned what a mistake that was, and thereafter tried to ride in an R-12 where I could position myself in front of one of the small fans.
Tom
The R-15 roofs did not have the ventilation holes for the axleflow fans that the R-16 through R-40 trains did. Visually, the R-15 roofs looked a lot like the roofs on the ACed trains from the experimental R-38s on up, but once you walked inside, especially between May and September, the problem was obvious.
>>Was there any special name for that speckled green color paint that they used for the interiors of the rebuilt Standards.<<
Plextone
Bill "Newkirk"
They would have had to have more platforms at Dekalb. But still, there would have been only 6 tracks (3 N + 3 S) further on.
I'm sure that they would have needed more platforms at DeKalb if they had connected the Fulton St. El to the subway at DeKalb Ave. They also might have tried longer platforms also.
#3 West End Jeff
I guess I would have preferred the Qs to the Multis, but by the time they IRT-ized them with the IRT (composite?) trucks, they were sloooowwww. Made the 1300s look nimble by comparison. I remember ordinary (non railfan) riders complaining.
Point is, I'd prefer the Multis with the Myrt running than what we got: NO BUs No Multis No Qs No L.
As to the shaving, the Myrt had the stationhouse and controls at platform level on island platforms and, IIRC, there was not a whole lot of clearance with the BUs and Qs. 10-footing-it might have required redoinf the station houses.
As an aside, they did redo the station houses maybe around 1960 or so. Took out the potbelly stoves, the pretty windows and any decoration that the stations had, but I don't think they did any major structural.
Yeah, can't argue there ... what I *liked* about them though was that they were made of WOOD when everything else was metal. To a lover of the old such as myself, it was almost like bring brought back to the old west, riding in wooden cars with wooden storm door and all ... and yes, they DID look much better before the Queens modifications. But like the LoV's, it was STILL nice to have them at all ...
Was a ride on a wooden car that much different than a metal car? What made it different?
Completely different feel. They had a warmth and ride qualities you don't get in a steel car. Solid. Dependable. Human. Especially as compared to current equipment.
Like the difference between driving a Ford Bronco or a Saturn on a snowy day.
And the big thrill was the WOOD ... the BMT had this penchant also for a nice dark green paint with gold-like "flecks" in it. WOOD storm door, wood frames, wood seats ... there was just a nice "warmth" to it all as opposed to cold steel. Granted, they were old and "rickety" but there was a major CHARM to it ... an emotional thing more than practical. They were just plain "cool" ...
And when your wood L train was sitting quietly* in a terminal on a stormy day, the car groaned and creaked like a comfy old house or a wooden sailing ship.
*And there's another point, when old cars (not just the wooden ones, but more so with them, it seemed) sat quietly, they SAT QUIETLY. No constant whirs and noises from the climate control system, and announcements, and sterile brightness. You could hear that old storm blow, until the lights dimmed and the compressor cut in with a gentle thump, thump, thump.
I'm think I'm gonna cry...
Yep ... that was all part of it too ... and when you were on the R1/9's and there weren't any LEAKS in the brake pipe to keep the compressors running, they could be pleasantly quiet TOO. Even more so if all the motors were dead. :)
But if you had a bunch of dead motors, you had a sluggish train.
!!!DUH!!! (as one of our car inspector managers would have said in one form or another. Heh.)
Words CANNOT descibe the NIGHT AND PHARKING DAY difference I saw on my trip to fun city as to how it WAS and how it IS today ... Train Dude and all you other CI's and former RCI's on the system TODAY. I'm so PROUD of how the system is today that I would GRATEFULLY do a Monica for you ALL but I'm too butt ugly to offer ... heh.
Seriously, given how the subways were in *MY* day, anyone who complains about a DAMNED THING has earned my official "huh?" You don't KNOW how bad it WAS ... SERIOUSLY ... MTA is EXTREMELY better than it was ... in OH so many ways ...
Chris: If you get a chance come up to Branford either on Member's Day or the Autumn in New York Weekend. Both steel and wood rapid transit cars will be operating and you'll be able to compare them.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Qs may have been slow, but I recall that they ran rather smooth and quiet, maybe better than the Standards. Certainly more smooth and quiet than R1-9s. The BMT knew how to build them!
Don't remember how the Multi's rode, unfortunately.
-- Ed Sachs
what I *liked* about them though was that they were made of WOOD
Ahhhh, yes. The era of "Wooden Cars and Iron Men" to borrow a phrase from a long ago Transit Magazine article. That same article ridiculed the men who worked the new push-button interlocking machines as eating "nutted cheese sandwiches" a reference to Chock Full O'Nuts flagship offering.
I guess REAL MEN didn't eat at Chock Full O'Nuts ;-)
Nosirree ... it was either Nathan's or Twin Dognuts ... :)
You gave me another chilling thought here ... I remember the days when the IRT station houses on the Broadway Local had FRANKLIN stoves in the station houses, WORKING toilets (ladies and gents) and SEATS INSIDE the station houses near the stoves that burned COAL ... there was electric heat also, but in the winter, the STOVES got fired up and IRT flatcars dumped off coal bin loads each morning before rush.
You obviously remember when stationhouses were where geese gathered, actually conversed with those they knew from the daily grind and there was plenty of time hearing the train coming in and getting to the doors before they opened to a warm train as well. And THIS was the IRT ... *ALL* of that went away when the damned red (actually DARK green) birds replaced the LoV's ...
Not only the IRT had coal stoves. I remember coal stoves in the station houses on the BMT Brighton line -- replaced by electric heaters in the 1950s.
As for the color of the R-type birds, some of them were originally red (R15, R17, R29, and R33 mainline).
-- Ed Sachs
Different shades of red, anyway. The R-29s and R-33s were tartar red. The R-17s were maroon. Were the R-15s originally the same maroon color as the R-17s? I know they has a yellow band below the belt rail.
This is the oldest R15 pic i could find on this site. Looks like maroon underneath all that crud:
>>> Looks like maroon underneath all that crud: <<<
The R-15's when they arrived on the Flushing line were definitely maroon, which was a change of color and roof line from the existing R-12 equipment.
Tom
Whoops ... pressed "send" too fast in my end of nightshift "I'se done until this evening" ... where I was going with the whole IRT thing is that when the R17's and up came in, all of the old "El charm" died on the traditional IRT ... when I moved east to "Norwood" in 1969, there was the 3rd avenue el which brough BACK all that had been lost in the 50's and 60's on the mainline IRT ... wooden this and that, the "old sound" and a bucolic trainride that already appealed to a kid who was lucky enough to have parents who owned a country place up where I live now that I was able to "summer at" before returning home. The 3rd avenue el had that feel I enjoyed growing up with the IRT. When the LoV's *and* the 3rd avenue were chopped down, I lost my very last link to the older times.
When the 3rd avenue line got replaced with R12's, I gravitated to the Myrtle, the Culver and anyplace else you could find older cars. The Canarsie with the standards whose whistles would shriek like a woman being attacked (the whistles I remember were just like a screech) was just about the end of the line once the Myrt closed ... wherever I could find any remaining "oldies," I "fanned" just to take it all in - same love for the Franklin, whose stations were among the oldest and most delapidated remaining on the system after the Culver shut down ...
UNTIL I got to work at the TA on the last remaining old cars that I knew, the R1/9'ers ... boy, did I *jump* at that gig although the only jobs left as conductor or as motorman was those split shifts ... but there's my yayas ... the subway was a LOT more fun back in those days. May have been natty as fark, but it still had some *soul* ...
So for anyone who shakes their head when I whine about "toasters on wheels" or "subway's working great but has no soul" ... you'll have a way of relating to what I feel. The subway had CHARM even if it was inefficient at only 36 TPH or it still runs just the same today as it used to in an age of high-tech equipment, the last few posts ought to provide a few anchor points for "boy is THIS guy twisted." :)
That's what I was thinking. But this would've required minimal modifications to every lower Myrtle Ave. station. Unthinkable in the late 1950's. It had to be left to rot and die!
In researching this issue I found that WABCO used an experimental
brake control package on the MS cars. It put Rube Goldberg to
shame. I came across some internal WABCO gossip about the braking
problems on these cars. There were numerous failure modes that
could result in loss or severe degradation of service braking.
I can only imagine what the multis would have done on the CPW express dash. They would have put the R-10s to shame.
As much as the Multi's were wunderkindren, they'd have blown a FUSE on the IND ... the multis were built for the BMT's "well, it was 550 when the squirrels sent it down the main, but it's likely 330 where YOU are" the multis may have been rocks on socks on the IND, but I'd worry about the breaker panels surviving the trip back. :)
GREAT cars, mind ya ... built like tanks, but the BMT Corporation was MIGHTY jealous about the construction of the R-1's and USED them to a point where the "testing" broke even on costs according to what's ben posted recently. The R1's were SERIOUS traction when they were first built ... and TAKEN seriously almost until the days when I worked 'em.
They had a rugged feel to them, that's fur sure. I mentioned once before that I got a big kick out of the indents on their door exteriors. When that first AA train I ever rode on pulled into 42nd St. on May 7, 1967, I was seriously tempted to take hold of those indents and pull on the doors before they opened. I didn't do it. Once we boarded, I just soaked it all in - the moans, groans, grunts, snarls, and hisses. Not to mention the ever-present throbbing compressors. The bottom line was, I was back on the subway - and loving every minute of it (we had just moved to Jersey a few weeks before).
Once upon a time, subway cars LET YOU KNOW beyond any reasonable doubt that they were MACHINES ... subway cars have since been turned into "touchy feely I'm really a limousine toasters on wheels" which kinda denigrates the experience as far as I'm concerned ... but once upon a time, those hissing, snarling behemoths once said, "I'll get you there" ...
I was quite impressed though on my visit how much the subway cars with all the personality of an AOL chat room are doing, and well ... still, I'd rather incandescent light and the grunts and the hissing. Then again, I ain't a well person and a PROUD member of the Luddite Church. :)
Would you settle for a snarling R-10 with blinking flourescent lights and buzzing bracket fans, rocking and rolling its way along the Fulton IND or up the CPW dash? That's an experience I will always remember and treasure, being sonically trashed and thrashed - METAL MACHINE MUSIK. The sound of steel on steel.
wayne
Settled for it often joyously ... ANYTHING but sealed toasters on wheels with a ride like a bus. :)
Or screaming past Sutphin Blvd., leaving passengers on the platform to ask, "What's that A train doing HERE?!?"
My experiences with the R1/9s began in 1967. I was never sure about "I'll get you there". They seemed ready to call it quits with every stop, moanin' and groanin' when they did get started.
I never got the impression the R-1/9s would croak when they stopped. They were lovable living, breathing, snarling, hissing, throbbing monsters.
Lovable to you, Steve. Lovable to me when I'd see them on the C, E, F, and G. Not on my line.
I loved those cars, period. Unless, of course, I happened to be on an E train between 42nd and 14th Sts. The D still comes to mind first whenever I think of them. It must be because the very first IND train I ever rode on was a prewar D on April 30, 1967.
The odd thing was I rode on those oldtimers more on the LL than all of my IND rides on them combined.
And they were brute force, especially with a GE R-6-2 in the lead. The R-6-2 put the RAPID in rapid transit.
wayne
All you needed with ANY of them was a few working motors. :)
Good point. Wayne got an F train once headed by 1233 which got up to A-440 on the Union Turnpike-Parsons Blvd. stretch. That's flat out flying. That train probably had no bad motors. OTOH he was on a solid R-4 D train in 1970 which did a death march over the Manhattan Bridge. I hear the crew very nearly said, "Everybody out and push!":-)
Then there was that solid R-1 B train which was falling apart but really moved along 4th Ave.
Yep ... every day on the road was a "how's our kharma?" event ... sometimes they went, sometimes ALL the timers were green down the bridge, made me CRAZY trying to figure out how to work'em when my consist clearly DIDN'T ... couldn't let it gain too much speed or there'd be a brown alert on the right-hand ... as I've said many times, the bridge scared the crap out of me downhill because you could never be sure of what you HAD or you DIDN'T back in my days ... it was ALWAYS a white knuckle ride ...
That's why I *enjoyed* recent rants of "how to work the timers on the Manny" ... that you weren't extracted from a pile of rubble in my OWN day was its OWN reward. You no screw with the ghods of grade timing back in MY day ... :)
There were folks who worked them that knew how to make them go ... except when a wheel fell off of course. :)
I'm sure, Selkirk, that you knew how to make them go. Only because of you and others like yourself did they ever make it out of the yards in the morning. I sure would have preferred to see you in a Brightliner, though.
I did a couple of them on an occasional run ... they reminded me too much of IRT equipment actually ... I preferred the older ladies. They were EASY. :)
Don't tell me that happened to you too. Let's see - you had a step plate break off under your foot once, then a control box fell onto your lap.....
Heh ... we DID have a wheel break - lemme see ... CAULEY WHEELS if Train Dude FINALLY made that event STICK in my meatrom ... lost a foot plate, yeah ... but now that I *finally* met face to face with the ACTUAL EQUIPMENT again in HeyPaul's personal bunker, what happened is merly the COVER opened in my lap ... sorry, but after the horrors of school car, BROWN ALERT!!!
While the RCI laughed in my face as he closed the cover that had opened when the whole freaking STAND fell in my pants, I honestly didn't know the difference between the 36 volts applied to my ZIPPER and the 600 behind my hat that gave me brain damage ... all I could fathom at the moment was that my pants were:
a) wet
b) sparking
You decide ... :)
With all that, it's unbelievable that you have FOND memories of the R1/9.
I actually do ... many of us can also remember owning automobiles that were hell on earth too, but since we no longer have them, somehow they improved with age. :)
I would love to be on hand if and when you see 1689 at Shoreline.:-)
There was an E train at 42nd St. once which started squealing like a sea gull when the motorman applied power. I almost ducked for cover.
>>> They seemed ready to call it quits with every stop, moanin' and groanin' when they did get started. <<<
If moaning and groaning when getting started bothered you, you must have had a very dull sex life. :-)
Tom
Heh. I've been a BAD influence. :)
With so much being said about the BMT Multi trains, my memory was jogged a little. A couple of years before we left New York I remember getting on a train at 42nd Street which my dad was the Sea Beach. I couldn't believe it because it looked nothing like the Triplex I was used to riding. Was the Multi ever used on the Sea Beach?
They probably did end up out there ... alas, I only joyrided the SeaBits every now and then as a kid and wasn't terribly mindful of what was rolling. Hopefully one of the Brooklynites here might know. I wouldn't be surprised though if they were there ...
Interesting that someone mentions the Multi's running on the Sea Beach.I don't think that ever happened to the best of my knowledge unless I'm mistaken. Maybe it was a train of BMT "Standards" since they occasionally ran on the Sea Beach Line. The only other type of car that could have operated would have been the "Zephyr" or perhaps the R-11.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, it wasn't a standard that I rode that time. I knew what they looked like. BTW, I still have this cough, though, and it is a pain in the ass. It just hangs on. As for the Multis, let's hope someone can give me the real low down.
Fred: I guess you really don't want those two hot dogs that I offered to buy you at Nathan's. Regarding your question about a strange train at 42 Street-Times Square I assume that you are talking about the Contract IV Broadway Line and not the original pneumatic subway run by Al Beach.
Since it was not a sub-Standard or a Triplex it may have been a Bluebird. The five production Bluebirds were placed in service on March 5,1941 and usually were on the #2 Fourth Avenue Local and occasionally on the #1 Brighton Local. The July 1,1943 car assingment lists them as being on the #2. Later it was transfered to the #16.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
"I R T" Where we still have the "RAPID" in rapid transit.
Thanks Redbird. I guess it will remain somewhat of a mystery. It could be a Multi was temporarily given to the Sea Beach for a day or two during rush time or something like that. I don't know. I only know that I remember telling my dad that it looked like a different train to me and was he sure it was the Sea Beach? It is wierd that all of sudden a couple of posts could trigger a memory search that I didn't think I had.
If it had cushy seats and a blue exterior with only a destination sign up front, it was a Bluebird.
A picture in Greller's book shows it on the Brighton local, but IIRC, it was a Brighton-Franklin #7.
From another post that I read you might have actually ridden on some R-1/9s that were running on the BMT in 1952. This is not surprising in light of the persistant car shortages in the BMT division at the time.
#3 West End Jeff
A number of R-1/9s were transferred from the IND to the BMT when the R-10s arrived in 1948, mostly used on the Fourth Ave. Local (#2, now R) line. This alleviated some of the car shortages on the BMT, and provided the extra equipment necessary to extend BMT subway service from Queensboro Plaza to Ditmars Blvd. in 1949. They mostly went back to the IND when the R16s came in 1954, but a few lingered on until '58 or '59.
-- Ed Sachs
I wonder if those conductors who worked on the R-1s found themselves clamoring for BMT standards. OTOH the 4th Ave. local was mostly, if not entirely, underground.
No compulsion here ... I rode standards every here and there and didn't really think all that much of them. I guess it's just because they weren't familiars in the Bronx like the 1/9's were ... now had I seen the MULTIS, that'd be a different story. I did like the Q's.
Did it have signs up front? The multis were stored on the Sea Beach express tracks after being condemned.
Geez ... let's really do it to Unca Fred, telling him that the SeaBits is where trains go to die. Way to go, bro ...
Selkirk, you are one of a kind---THANK GOD!!!!!! Now why would you go and say a thing like dad for? The Sea Beach (not seabits you turkey) signifies like and a breath of fresh air, not death and stagnation? Are you sure you're not director of the MTA? Come on now, and straighten up and fly right or I'll sabotage your cabin.
Fred, old buddy ... you gotta *FIND* de cabin. Hint, two snowplows went off the road and today, a frontloader came in. IT TOO went into the gulch so we're still snowed in up here. *WE* own the road, so it's all our problem. Word is they're going to try an earthmover in the morning. Big Caterpillar thingy. Ouch. So yeah, you're welcome to personally come on out and wring some neck if ya wanna. Limited time offer, void where prohibited by ice. :)
So this is my reward for warning Steve that he went too far about calling da CBits line a "train graveyard" and you wanna piece of me, huh? Well ... when we came to the city, we were guests of some TA wigs who gave us carte blanche and were amused by our antics. And I even said nice things about your train too. Gotta write Larry back and retract my statements then. Heh.
No don't write Larry back and retract your statements but instead deliver it in person to him-----on foot. What the hell is going on up there? Are you isolating yourself like that old bomber who lived like a hermit? How many of you are up there and how close are you neighbors, and doesn't it get a wee bit boring? I'm worried about you friend. Seems to me you are becoming a hermit.
Heh. Only when it snows. :)
Here's the plot ... I live in an old railroad town which has several horse stables, a few dairy farms and all. If anything DOES go wrong, sheriff's office is about a half mile away and they use snowmobiles this time of year for crime, rescue or medical transport. Out here in the hills, it's all volunteer. Something goes wrong, we can all depend on one another. It goes down to 20 below once or twice a year and lingers near it for a quarter of it. Folks can die out here, so neighbors all watch out for one another. I contrast this with the years that I lived in the city and in suburban type environments where if you knew the person living next door, it's only because one of us called the cops on the other one. KIDDING! (but if you think about it, folks are a lot tighter knit out in the sticks)
I'm up on a hilltop overlooking the "village" on a half mile long road that I own that climbs up our hill. I own the entire northern facing half of the hill, and there's 6 folks on the other side facing south. They have their own road. Railroads cut the edges of the property and there's a power line on the west side and a substation at the bottom of the hill where my road connects to Rte 85A. I live in a ski chalet GLASS house ... sort of a modified A frame kinda thing with a shallow roof and two floors of a glass wall facing north. Surrounded by trees, we can prance around nekkid and nobody'd notice. So much for the "log cabin" heh.
We gots electricity, indoor plumbing, cable TV (though we chopped it and went for the bird bath ourselves), DSL, internet and acres upon acres of heavily forested land. Mowing in the summer's a beast but summer here is about four weeks. :)
What we don't have is busses or subways but then again, there's only about 2,000 folks in the entire surrounding area so it'd be a waste of money. But what we DO have up here is everybody in a five mile radius knows everybody else, we see each other down in the village, church, the post office, and the little village downtown where there's still nothing but locally-owned stores including an IGA supermarket and once again, everybody knows everybody else and we all look out for one another.
If I ever did slip a gear, they'd know THAT too ... you wouldn't hear things like "well, they seemed alright but a little aloof" ... nope, they'd all step up to the camera and say, "Oh Kevin and Nancy - yeah, they pantsed the mayor last New Years" ... or ... "those two ... yeah, NEVER leave a locomotive idling on their front lawn. You won't find it when you come back" and things of that nature. Wouldn't trade any of this for what I left and as to boring, really doesn't happen. Too many folks having fun, a good time and shooting the sheet. And if I get lonely, well ... there's always subtalk. My neighbors think we're sane though. Start worrying ... they're railroad folk. :)
I'll have to admit Kevin, it does sound like a good life. The only bummer is the weather. Yikes, it gets cold. Even when I lived in New York I was a bit of a pus. I just hated cold weather. But if you can take it and enjoy it, then go for it. Just keep the burner going.
You are still bit of a pus. The Bob N Fred Bob is back on the air after a 11 day vaCATION(mE MOVING AROUND THE CORNER)
Good to see you're back and that you're your usual self.
And now back to the Bob and Fred Show....:-)
I'll take cold over heat and humidity any day. And when the roads are clear (most of the time) you can get around and visit folks. HUGE Mall with Pottery Barn and other yuppie delights and a suburban type setting are only 10 miles to the northeast from here. Another reason why I'm out where I am. It IS nice here. :)
You can always play that bootleg CD to bring back fond memories of the good old days.:-)
Heh ... between that and BVE, I'm all set. :)
>>> the little village downtown where there's still nothing but locally-owned stores including an IGA supermarket <<<
Kevin;
I hope no one from Wal Mart read your post. :-)
Tom
If they did, they're welcome to come into town and "compete." We're from UPstate ... we gots guns. :)
BTW, while I never had a chance to talk to "Larry R" ... he DID make some amazing "arrangements" and had people waiting for us to arrive on their "platform" to "show us some treats" ... when I went to send the thank you letter, I *did* mention the condition of the SeaBeach (see? I *can be nice if I wanna) and will see what the response is. I was VERY pleased with the way our trip turned - had a WONDERFUL time going places and doing things that mere mortals are NOT permitted - especially after 911 ... came as a surprise to a few others who tagged along too apparently. Cab time? Heh.
Only shows to go ya, when someone from upstate decides to drop a kilobuck in the city (and a few pesos extra for political campaigns) the red carpet actually gets vacuumed. And living up here where you KNOW to warm your hands in your pants and apply "bag balm" before grabbing a cow for that warm milk that puts you to sleep, ain't a grumpy bone in my bod. Life is too good and thanks to the company of my fellow neighbors, ain't got no axes to grind. To me, a WONDERFUL place to be ... moo. :)
Selkirk: If you ever make it down here to the lower forty-eight I would be more than glad to buy you a couple of dogs and a brew at Nathan's. I guess Fred din't want to take me up on the offer.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred and I will take you up on that in October along with 8th Ave Steve
Bob: Friend still has to answer my question concerning the last run of the Triplexes. Please no help from the audience. BTW I'll be glad to meet you both but Fred buys his own dogs unless he comes up with the answer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred has probably forgotten the question.
Karl: Fred probably doesn't know the answer so he'll have to settle for some cold fries.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It's gang up time, I see. OK, my Sea Beach buddies, time to retaliate against those damn IRT and Brighton boys.
Fed,
"Can't we all just get along?"
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Fred, Larry was asking you if you knew when the Triplexes made their last run.
Larry drives a hard bargain.:-)
Frd: I see that you not only want to take on the whole IRT clan but the Brighton boys as well. You had better get some help from the West End gang and the Culver crowd.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I haven't heard from any of my Sea Beach, West End buddies, or Culver cohorts, so I will have to slip back into the mountains to regroup and wait for reinforcements.
Well I'm here #4 Sea Beach Fred. Ready to discuss the BMT Multi's or any other subway car of interest.
#3 West End Jeff
>>I haven't heard from any of my Sea Beach, West End buddies, or Culver cohorts, so I will have to slip back into the mountains to regroup and wait for reinforcements.<<
That's because you're being surrounded by Brighton Boys. Drop your handles and surrender !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. Should we tell him where we're hiding his boys? Nah. :)
Fred,
Hate to break the news to you, but I consider myself a BMT SOUTHERN DIVISION fan, with a very slight nod going to the West End and Brighton lines. Don't get me wrong, I would NEVER disparage the Sea Beach for "thou shall not speak ill of the BMT!" And as for the Culver; well, that is the reason I can actually like the R9s.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Had it not been for all those rides on the A in the late 60s, I would become a diehard Southern Division fan myself. I'm still an IND guy, but the Southern Division is still very, very special to me.
As a Bronx boy, it was the IRT or the IND. BMT was NOT an option up my way ... but thanks to the D train, I got to love the southern division's tracks. open cuts, tunnelage and els. Never thought much of the Stillwell TWU contingent nor much of the geese when I worked the Brighton line ... though there were OFTEN treats among the geese which made it all balance out. As to the "Stillwell boys" on the railroad though, that's why I was a proud renegade among the "rank and file" faction in TWU 100 ... much to the dismay of the "regulars" ...
But yes, "southie" was home to me as well based on my pick ... though as a nonemployee, I did kinda like the eastern division a WHOLE lot better based on the trainfoamer bits ...
Selkirk: In think you know that deep in the recesses of your heart you know that the BMT rules, and your flowery verbiage to the contrary will not fool any of us. The BMT rules and always has. The IRT? Simply small potatoes. The IND? Nowhere.
Fred: The IRT was small potatoes? That'ss mighty strong talk from a man who lives on the wrong side of the San Andreas Fault. At its height the BMT only managed to serve a group of off-shore islands. The IRT with its five elevated lines was the largest rapid transit system in the world and that was BEFORE we built the subway. The IRT was up and running for three years on Ninth Avenue while you guys were still experimenting with hot air on Broadway. The IRT penetrated right into downtown Brooklyn with its Contract II Mainline.The BMT never dared to show its face in The Bronx.(Even the Dodgers got there eventually). You would not have gotten to see the World's Fair if it hadn't been for the IRT.
The IRT always knew what it was, a heavy duty rapid transit high speed railroad. The BMT never could make up its mind if it wanted to operate ten foot wide cars or nine foot wide cars or if it wanted to be a rickety el line or a summer only tourist ride.
IRT trains regularly ran with three trailers. Those hulking standards that you talk about were scared to take one BX trailer over the Manhattan Bridge.
And what about that hotel that you guys built down in Brighton. Not only did the trains come into the lobby but so did the Atlantic Ocean at high tide.
Don't think that I haven't been watching you take pot shots at the IRT and The Bronx. There is a reason for Yankee Stadium having so many championship flags that people mistake it for the UN.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, you got be cold. I have taken pot shots at the Bronx and the IRT, but not malicious attacks. The BMT never went into the Bronx because it didn't need to or want to. When you have Brooklyn why the hell would you want the Bronx. The Bronx is not a good pimple on Brooklyn's nose, and besides, have you lost your marbles? Can you even in jest compare the BMT's Triplex to those decrepit looking Low V's. The lv's had no identity and no pizazz. The BMT went into Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan. What else was needed. The IRT was big in the Bronx with their elevated trains, but except for one line never the light of day in Brooklyn, keeping itself hidden in the hidden rat infested reaches of the underground. The Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, and West End ruled Brooklyn and still does. The 2, 4, 5, and 3? The leftovers.
BTW, I hope you are taking all this in fun. It's good to go manno manno with a class guy.
Now now ... pot shots at Da Bronx is only inviting me to tell you what a "hot lunch" is ... let's not go there. :)
Heh. I'm not big on interborough ribaldry since we're all one city these days, but BRAVO ... a misty tear from a Bronx boy who doesn't care much for Steingrabber and roots for the Meats ... (sniff)
A Mets fan makes you stand real tall with me, so I am again stating that I am leaving the Bronx and the IRT alone. But, hey Kevim, all in good fun. OK? And stop calling my train the Seabits/ It sounds like some kind of cookie that has no taste to it.
Heh. I be good then ... and yes, sharing a birthday with Irish Ranting Transport ... well, you've got your own cross to bear. :)
Fred: I'm not mad at you. I simply put your rantings down to the ravings of an off-shore islander. Look at all the great stuff that we have in The Bronx; the New York Zoological Park aka The Bronx Zoo, Edgar Allen Poe's House (Remember The Raven and the Nevermores?)and the world famous Bronx Riviera aka Orchard Beach.
Now I have had soon kind words to say about Brooklyn, not to mention the Triplexes and the Duplicates.
You really must vist the mainland the next time that you come east of the Mississippi.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
HEY, My mudder was born in da Bronx. I don't wanna hear anybuddy saying trash about da Bronz!
Even tho' Brooklyn is bedder!
Paul: Don't tell Fred but I actually did live in Brooklyn for a few months after I got out of the Air Force back in 1968. I married a Bronx girl,naturally and moved back to the mainland.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I won't say one is better than the other...they're both great boroughs...I'm a Bronx Boy, but I'll tell ya...Brooklyn's got the other half of my heart.....
J=Train: You can have it both ways nowadays, that is, loyalty to two boroughs like the Brooklyn and the Bronx. Believe me, however, when I tell you that 50 years ago such a dual loyalty would have been impossible. Remember the Yankees and the Dodgers? That alone put Brooklyn in a catatonic state when the Brooklynites, or their supporters, heard the words The Bronx. Today many people in Brooklyn root for the Yankees so it isn't nearly as big a stigma as it once was. If you read some of my posts you will notice that I take a few swipes at the Bronx at different intervals. My wife says psychologically it goes back to my childhood and my hatred of the Yankees which carries on to this day.
That I will---and I will bring Brighton Express Bob and Steve 8AVEXP with me, butI will need more backup than that. So I expect you and Selkirk, if he can tear himself away from his role of "Man in the Wildernes", to come down and make it a fivesome. Maybe we can a few of my other buddies who were with me last April 1 to come, too. I get the feeling I'm not too popular in the Bronx and the fact is one guy even kill-filed me. Is it a deal?
If I can pay off the bank for my last foray and your buddies in DC don't shut down Amtrak, I'm game ... but if Amtrak gets deep-sixed (and it looks like it's done) there's no ox-carts between hither and yon and we'll all have to learn to sing "Oh Canada" up here. :)
Heh. What can I tell ya, pallie ... I'm a Bronx boy. No BMT in da Bronx, we were denied its essence. so for us, it was the little tin cans of the IRT or the BIG tin cans of the IND ... but I sure did get to like the Brighton line when I worked it, rode the SeaBits once or twice when they had it running, but stuck in my own culture at the other end of Madhattan. I figure if the BMT was too timid to come north, then they was afraid of us. :)
Timid? Nah. But since you and Redbird are still my buddies I am ceasing and desisting with this culumny against the IRT and the Bronx as long as you guys leave my Sea Beach alone. But get this, the anniversary of the IRT in October 27, 1904. I was born October 27, 1940. I may even be an IRT man and not know it. How's that for irony?
Bob has been conspicuously absent from this thread...:-)
He is just moved and got a new job. He's putting in a lot of overtime and the move resulted in extra work that he didn't anticipate. Don't worry, he goes in spurts and will be back on soon. He E-Mailed me the other day and all is ok. I'll tell him you posted on his absence. As soon as he hears Sea Beach Fred is ranting about his train again, the Bob and Fred show will resume.
Mark your calendar for the week of October 13. I will be in the city then.
God willing, so will I. Is this a go? And how long will you be in New York? If there is time to do some railfanning and other things, let me know. I will make it to the city for sure----and drag Bob in if I have to.
My usual routine is to fly in on Monday (Oct. 14th in this case), stay in the city Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, then head up to Connecticut around midday on Friday, with a return flight to Denver on Sunday. One day is set aside to spend at my sister's in Jersey. At this point, I would say this is all tentative, as anything can happen between now and then; however, the dates are definite.
Can't wait to witness the Bob and Fred Show in the flesh!
Did I read the last few posts corrctly. Are both #4 Sea Beach Fred and Steve B-8 Av Exp coming to New York in October. That really will be the occasion for a sub-tlak field trip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Last October a small group of us were able to link up mid-week. We did a 3 boro field trip (Main Street to Coney Island). They missed a Red Bird Express outbound, but we all caught a Slant 40 from Coney.
Mr rt__:^)
yes !! thats right i will grace NYC & the subway system with my visit this summer !!
lol !!
October is after Indian Summer, is that what you ment ?
We'll be sure to tell all the T/Os to have those railfan windows clean.
Mr rt__:^)
We didn't actually miss any outbound Redbird expresses, but did catch a local doing a battery run, stopping only at Junction Blvd. and Main St.
That Q ride back from Coney was a blast. And that T/O was a real pro. We even talked him into taking that jog before Union Square under power. As we bore down on 28th St., I said, "28th St. dead ahead!", as we proceeded to rip past that station just as the R-32s used to do on the N all those years ago.
You read correctly. Needless to say, you are more than welcome to join us. And if the Bob and Fred Show is there live and in person, I may be ROTFLMAO the entire day.:-) We should plan for October 14, 15, or 16 (that's William Padron's, Mister R-10's, birthday). That's when I plan on being in the city. Come one, come all! It may be an inconvenience to some, as these are weekdays.
Steve: This looks like it will be an event to rival the opening of the First Subway. I'm going to arrange for "King Kong" to drop a few banana peals on Fred's head if he says something bad about the IRT.
I look forward to seeing you both.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hot Lunch: You're honest and I know where you stand. Nothing wrong with that. And since you are a BMT fan, you can rest assure that you stand tall with me. Good job. And have a nice hot lunch on me.
Oh Fred ... poor Fred ... you don't know what a "hot lunch on me" is ... and no, I won't take the fall for telling you either. You've been away too long, bro ...
Selkirk: I think what Fred is looking for is a free lunch, not a hot one.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Heh. SOMEBODY'S going to tell him ... ain't gonna be me though. No sirree ... I've already caused the boy enough trauma. :)
Selkirk: Not only is he looking for a free lunch but he still has'nt
answered my question about the last run of the D-Types. He probably still expects me to buy him two hot dogs at Nathan's. Sorry Fred, you have to buy a ticket to get into the ballpark.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, tell you what. YOU answer me the question and the hot dogs are on me. Hell, when I come to New York I usually do the treating anway so no sweat. PLEASE tell me.
Fred: My question was about the date and route of the last passenger run of the D-Types and by that I meant covering a regular service on a regular route carrying regular fare payings people. (And not some crazy railfan nuts. You know the kind. They stay up to midnight to ride the first train through the Chrystie Street Connection or get to work at 4 in the morning to see the first train out of Wassaic.)
The date was Saturday, March 23,1974 and it was on Route SS Culver Shuttle, formerly BMT Route #5, but you knew that. D-Types 6019 and 6095 made three round trips between 9 Avenue and Ditmas Avenue replacing the regular equiptment on the shuttle. Yes it was part of a fantrip, popbably the best fantrip I was ever on. Nevertheless we did carry regular shuttle riders for about an hour.
Since you are a gentleman and a scholar I accept you offer of the two hot dogs but please allow me to pay for the suds.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I'm sure glad that you would not let me answer the question when I wanted to, because I was going to say the West End on July 23 1965.
Karl: And four nine years that was the correct answer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wouldn't have come close to getting that answer right because I had no inkling that they ran until 1974. Two Nathan's hot dogs coming up, but could you subsitute lemon ade for me instead of suds? Believe it or not I don't drink beer.
Glad to oblige. Do they have any lemon trees in Brooklyn?
Larry,RedbirdR33
No but we have plenty out here in California. I have one in my back yard. I guess I will have to supply the lemons if Nathan's doesn't have any, but, come on, they get their share from my state.
Actually lemons from Calley out this way are pretty rare - Pacific Fruit Express isn't what it used to be after the BNSF railroad merger. Chances are fruit on the east coast is from Guatemala or Europe. We have a HELL of a time trying to avoid Florida citrus in favor of that from California and often have to stockpile. Our purchase patterns are based on who voted for whom last year ... the wife is big on boycotting states that voted wrong much like our federal officials ... but that's politics and let's not go there - bottom line, California fruit is hard to come by on the east coast as a result of "competition."
Well, technically the Triplexes didn't run UNTIL 1974, although they most definitely could have had they not been so needlesly slaughtered. They rode off into the sunset in July of 1965, then were resurrected in March of 1974 for a few round trips on the Culver Shuttle.
Along those same lines, you could also ask when the Lo-Vs made their final revenue trip: October 27, 1994 on the 42nd St. shuttle.
Now you know Steve why I am very symptathetic to those Redbird fans who moan the loss of their favorite cars. When I returned to New York for the first time in 20 years and saw for myself that there were no more Triplexes my heart sank. I bordered between sadness and anger, a cherished part of my childhood torn away. That, plus the fact that the Sea Beach no longer carried the #4, made me realize I was no longer a kid and no longer a New Yorker but rather a tourist and my personal feelings on the matter didn't amount to a hill of beans.
I was bummed in 1990 when I found out the R-10s were no more, even though they had been banished to the C during their final years.
The date is July 23rd 1965. That was the last run of the "D" types in passenger service.
#3 West End Jeff
>>The date was Saturday, March 23,1974 and it was on Route SS Culver Shuttle, formerly BMT Route #5, but you knew that. D-Types 6019 and 6095 made three round trips between 9 Avenue and Ditmas Avenue replacing the regular equiptment on the shuttle. Yes it was part of a fantrip, popbably the best fantrip I was ever on. Nevertheless we did carry regular shuttle riders for about an hour.<<
Larry, hate to disagree with you, but July 23rd 1965 still stands as the last date the D-Types ran in revenue passenger service. A technicality called a General Order makes that so. The March 1974 fantrip was considered a "special" that carried some revenue paying passengers for an hour as you say. The July 23rd runs were regularly scheduled and not an "extra".
You owe Fred two Nathan's hot dogs !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: I would beg to differ with you. We ran on a regular route carrying regular fare paying passengers and keeping a regular schedule.
GENERAL ORDER
No
96-74 March 181974
""In part"
Whitehall Street B3-4 track via Montague Street Tunnel,4th Avenue express,36 Street to signal D3-504(22) 8 Avenue interlocking.
Upon arrival at this location special train will wait for the regular Culver shuttle to complete a regularly scheduled trip and lay up on D4. Special will then enter regular Culver Shuttle and make three round trips. Regular station stops will be made .
I still intend to buy Fred that lemonade but you can spring for the dogs if you want.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred did not seem to have a clue as to either of the two dates.
Shouldn't he be the one buying both of you hot dogs and lemonade!!!! Ugh!
The official drink of Nathan's was NON-CARBONATED ORANGE DRINK. But there was another non-carbonated drink that I never ordered. Maybe that was lemonade.
When the franks were 15c, the drinks were 5c for regular, 10c for large. The large was too big to finish and produced a 72-hour sugar high.
When I did that Gotham TV thing they bought me a hot dog and fries (latter of which was on camera) but I didn't get any drink.
Two dates? I thought it was only one date I didn't know. Besides, Larry is a class guy. He knows if he gets the dogs and I get the lemonade he will come out of it ahead. What are you trying to do Karl, bring dissension into the ranks. And to think I was just about to invite you to join us. I still will if you buy the shrimp that I love so much at Nathan's How about it?
Hey Fred, it looks as though I will be in the city during the week of October 13th, most likely flying in on Monday the 14th.
>>I still intend to buy Fred that lemonade but you can spring for the dogs if you want.<<
Well................if I was part of the bet maybe. Ill spring for the mustard !
Bill "Newkirk"
From what I know the last Triplexes ran in 1965 on the West End. They were taken off my Seaa Beach around 1963. That's closs enough and you owe me a hot dog at Nathan's/ Don't welch on me.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
I think I will have one soon
Fred: Sorry, thats not correct. You'll have to settle for a consolation prize of cold fries from Wendy's. (They shut the ovens down after Dave passed away). I still be glad to see you but you'll have to buy your own dogs.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Whattaya mean Larry, not take you up on your offer. You have a deal. Hey remember back in '99 when you asked me when I was in New York. I told you and you never got in touch when I hit town. I'm planning to join Brighton Express Bob (that pus) and Steve 8AVEXP next fall in the Big Apple. I might even make a short trip next summer. Hell, E-Mail me and we can also touch base. Perhaps you can join us. Nothing would suit me better to join up with a bunch of my rainfan buddies like I did last April when ten of us went riding out to Coney Island and had a hell of a time.
What do you mean pus, you Right Wing Bircher
Fred: Unfortunately I wasn't able to make your last vist but I plan to be there for the next one. I don't have the capacity to e-mail you directly from your posting. Please either print your e-mail address in the the next posting or e-mail me directly at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com. BTW I guess you didn't read my posting in response to your query about when the D-'s ran on the seabits. In that posting I offered to buy you two hot dogs at Nathan's if you could give me detail or the D's last revenue run.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> to join up with a bunch of my rainfan buddies like I did last April when ten of us went riding out to Coney Island and had a hell of a time. <<<
That must have looked just like a scene from "The Warriors." :-)
Tom
You had to be there, from what I hear.:-)
We had some fun ourselves last October on a diamond Q out of Brighton Beach. The T/O chatted with us on the entire trip, and we blew past a couple of local trains. We were yelling, "HI!!" and "BYE!!" as we passed those trains. It was a blast.
Heh. All I need to do is tank up the wallet again for a return trip. That'll take a while. Upstate, having $100 in the bank is a Rockefeller type experience. :)
Fred, The Multis ran extensively on the Sea Beach Line when they were delivered, but only in testing. As far as I cantell the testing was done on the express tracks and the mileage recorded for each car each day. Revenue service testing was on the Canarsie Line.
I would be surprised if any Multis saw passenger service on the Sea Beach. The BMT was pretty compulsive about keeping the Eastern and Southern Division fleets separate. Multis were Eastern Division cars as Triplexes were Southern Division cars. Even the Standards were divided up into Eastern and Southern--there might have been some trading back and forth, but basically individual Standards were either Eastern or Southern. This was even true under the BofT and TA right up to Chrystie Street--R16s were Eastern, R27s, R30s and R32s were Southern.
What time frame are you talking about? There were some R1/9s on the BMT in the middle 50s, though I thought they were just on the 4th Avenue Local. There were also R10s for a while--don't know what lines they were on--never saw them. They had ogee roofs like the Multis, maybe that's what you saw.
Paul: It was the summer of 1952 and we went to my uncle's house just off Fort Hamilton Parkway on the Sea Beach. It wasn't a Triplex, and I know it wasn't a standard. I just wonder what the hell it was. It was a one shot ride. I never rode such a train again. I do know it was a Saturday afternoon.
Could it possibly have been a former SIRT car??
When did the TA buy those from Staten Island?
>>Could it possibly have been a former SIRT car??
When did the TA buy those from Staten Island? <<
The SIRT cars didn't show up until 1955. They saw service on the West End Local to Chambers St. as well as the Franklin and Culver Shuttles. There are no reports of them running in service on the Sea Beach except on the 1961 farewell fantrip.
Bill "Newkirk"
1952? MAYBE an R-10. I think that's about when they were on the BMT. But that's just a guess.
Paul....Could it have been the lightweight Zephyr? This unit held down the "Sunny Summer Sunday" schedule on the Sea Beach from time to time right into the early '50s. Although, Fred said he picked the train up at one of the Sea beach local stops.
Carl M.
Carl--
Fred said 42nd Street, by which I assume Times Square, so it wouldn't have the Zephyr on SSSS. I'm not sure the Zephyr was ever on a mainline run, since it could only make up a short train.
Paul....I stand corrected. I thought he said that he either got on or off at the Ft. hamilton Pky. stop of the Sea Beach.
Carl M.
Paul, I think that the R-10 made its first appearance on the BMT in Nov 1954.
And, it was only 50 cars, plus they spent their whole time on the BMT Eastern Division (specifically the No. 15 Jamaica Line).
Actually, 30 R-10s were sent over. 50 R-16s ran on the A for a time. I wonder how they did on the CPW dash.
Several R1's were operating on the #2 line at this time. Perhaps it was one of these trains.
I guess due to a car shortage on the BMT they borrowed some R-1s from the IND at that time.
#3 West End Jeff
They did borrow some R-1s after the R-10s were delivered.
Yup, from 1949 to 1960ish, nearly a third of the R1's were "donated" to the car-strapped BMT for use on the 4th Ave. local. Probably to assure the BMT that no new R10's would be used on their routes.
Can you imagine the R10 running on the Q/#1 line? You speed freaks are probably already drooling.
The R-10s did run on the Brighton Line in the late 70s or early 80s.
--Mark
Was the sound barrier broken?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was.:-)
I rode on a D train of R-10s once, but only along CPW. It thundered along that stretch, all right. It would have been interesting to have stayed on that train all the way down to Brighton Beach.
Fred... Was it a long train do you recall?
Carl M.
Carl and the rest of you who came to my aid. I just saw a picture of a #4 Sea Beach R-1 and I believe that was it. In fact, I am sure of it. Thanks guys for all the help. Mystery solved.
IND equipment stuck in the brain ... and a brighton D train no less. Oh, life is good. Heh.
So that was the first time you saw a train of R-1s.
Fred is coming down with dementia, he can t remember anything except Triplex on the Slow Beach to nowhere
You liked the Triplexes, too, didn't you?:-)
Bobby my buddy, you are confusing a host of subtalkers into thinking we are bitter rivals. Is that anyway to treat your pal? And the Sea Beach didn't go nowhere. It went the same place your train did, only it did it quicker without tearing up the neighborhood with their incessant noise. BTW, how's the job going? Let's touch base this weekend. I'll give you a buzz at your new pad.
Sadly yes Steve. Although for the life of me I don't know if I was missing anything. They look like ok cars to me but they seem like so many others. Was there something unique about them? I do know from others they were made during the Great Depression. That's a hell of a long time ago.
They were unique to me. Their symphony of marvelous sounds was music to my ears. BTW, did you know the R-1/9s had the same braking system as the Triplexes? Both car classes had the same "tch-ssss" magnet valve sound as they came to a stop.
Fred: You're perfectly correct. R-1's did run on the seabits from July to November 1931. That's probably where you saw them.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry. I hope you meant 1951 rather than l931. I am not that old and the R-1's were here yet.
The BMT was pretty compulsive about keeping the Eastern and Southern Division fleets separate.
Why was that?
Best guess--probably for maintenance reasons. For minority fleets like the Multis, ENY would have had the greater experience in routine maintenance. The Triplexes same boat, plus they would have been hell on some of the Eastern Division strcuture, in used regularly. The Triplexes even had the BRIDGE and TUNNEL designations as back lit glass plates in their sign boxes.
More interesting might be why the TA maintained this, even with when they began to get R-types, and until Chrystie Street.
I'm not certain whether they did the same with elevated fleets, but I wouldn't be surprised.
The Triplexes hardly got any maintenance at all, yet they still ran like tops until their premature demise.
As many of you know, in Chicago on the CTA there are no covers over the third rail. As far back as I remember (circa 1964) there have been covers on NYCTA third rails (also LIRR and PATH).
I saw in some old pictures, that it seems there were no covers on the third rail on the BMT. Is that true? If so, when did the TA start placing wooden cover over the third rail?
"I saw in some old pictures, that it seems there were no covers on the third rail on the BMT. Is that true?"
This was a holdover from the old "el" car days. The wooden "el" cars mostly used overrunning shoes on exposed type third rail. There were a small number of "el" cars with subway style third rail shoes and had anti-climbers painted white.
The BMT Brighton line had their exposed third rails replaced by conventional covered types around 1961. Even though, the "el" cars were long gone from the scene, there probably wasn't money available for the replacement.
Bill "Newkirk"
All of the BMT elevated lines had exposed third rails into the late 1950's. I think the subway-style subway covers were installed after the gate cars were scrapped.
The 2 exceptions to this were the Myrtle Ave. el south of Broadway, for obvious, and the Culver shuttle, which remained uncovered until it was closed.
BTW, can you "scrap" a wooden rail car? That term indicates something made of metal. What would be a more appropriate word? Splintered? Chopped?
They would usually burn them in place in the yard.
And then scrap the remaining metal frame etc. left over after the wood had been burned away.
-Robert King
So, the BMT gate cars were "torched" in 1958, not "scrapped"?
I love sarcastic semantics....LOL
The Myrtle Ave. Line (all of it from Bridge-Jay to Metropolitan), along with at least part of the Broadway-Brooklyn line from Myrtle to the ENY yards had uncovered third rail into the mid-1960s when the drop type third rail shoes on the Q-types were replaced with subway-type blade shoes.
-- Ed Sachs
Do the covers serve any real practical purpose?
They keep the rail free of snow, ice and debris and they help protect track workers. One can stand on the covers.
One should never stand on the covers.
I see track workers do it all the time. They bounce too.
You pick bad role models.
Hey, SEPTA Broad Street Subway cleaning crew guys are perfectly fine role models!
I notice newer covers seem to be something other than wood. Looks like fiberglass or something. The new covers are white.
As a transit employee one of the first things you are taught in track safety class is NEVER stand on a third rail protection board. The reason is that the wood can be rotted and if the wood gives way, then goodbye Charlie!
Many of the newer boards are made of fiberglass.
You can stand on bare rail as long as you stay 6 inches away from all other surfaces.
The a track worker wrote a comic strip I could see one installment being one worker standing on the bare thrid rail scuffing his feet upon said rail and moving, finger outstretched, towards another worker.
Was the comic strip titled The Darwin Awards?
How exactly do you get onto this bare 3rd rail without having
600 across your groin? Not that there's anything wrong with that...
I'm just making a hypothesis about this since I don't have any experience to draw upon. That said, I suppose you could jump onto a live, uncovered third rail and not be shocked provided you landed only on the third rail and didn't touch anything else. I imagine one could do the reverse to get off of it by jumping again.
-Robert King
Not a good policy. However, birds used to do it all the time where there was uncovered third rail--land on it and strut back and forth. I also used to see the pigeons duck under the third rail. I suppose one got fried occasionally, but I never saw it.
I've seen cats and racoons duck beneath the third rail occasionally, but haven't yet seen one fry for it either.
The birds on the third rail works exactly like birds on electric wires above the street, they're fine because they are only in contact with the third rail, they aren't conducting the electrical current from the third rail or wire to somewhere else. That's the important part - not to act as a conductor for the electrical current to get elsewhere...
Some general advice to everybody: if you're attached to something live, the worst thing you can do is ground yourself or come in contact with something attached to the current's intended return path... Even better, avoid coming in contact with live electricity altogether.
-Robert King
I also saw a stray cat slide under the third rail on the southbound local track at Sheepshead Bay. I was afraid it was gonna fry, but nothing happened.
I gave it some more thought over the last little while and the conclusion I arrived at is that there is enough stone ballast beneath the tracks that the roadbed itself is insulated rather well, although probably imperfectly, from the earth below - when it is dry, adding rain will change that. This means animals have to touch the third rail and one of the (grounded) running rails to complete a circuit strong enough to fry. Animals squishing through underneath the third rail probably feel something, but if they do, there isn't enough electricity flowing through them to the imperfect ground to harm them.
I've never seen animals near the third rail on wet days. Chances are the electrical leakage to the surrounding wet area from the third rail is strong enough that the animals feel the current and go away before they get close enough to get hurt.
-Robert King
I imagine dry fur and feathers are probably not real conductive, combined with the stone ballast you mentioned. WOuldn't want to watch if some animals decided to rub hard against the third rail, though.
Dry fur and feathers are quite a good insulator.
-Robert King
Nobody showed me how to bug a hot dog. CI Peter
It's like fencing ... attach dog in clip of small bug, lunge forward, contact ... you can use it as a fuse when testing end signs. :)
Robert:
As long as the person or animal doesn't become part of the ground or return, touching the third rail will not fry you. However, I wouldn't recommend it.
When I moved to Chicago, I was amazed at the number of track workers on the CTA 'L' structure that worked so close by the exposed third rail. I'm told that working on the elevated structure is fairly safe because unless you step on both the running rail and third rail at the same time, electrocution is not a problem. When it begins to rain, you'll see those guys who make it their job to work on the structure, be off the structure as soon as the first drops fall. Now you've added the component of water, and water does conduct electricity.
I'm not an electrical engineer either, but I've watched some of those CTA workers do things at or by the third rail that I'd never do, but then, they all looked pretty healthy to me with no 'singed' look from former run ins with the third rail.
Jim Kramer
We wear special shoes. CI Peter
I recall in the days when more TA third rail was uncovered, some track crews had a rubber mat they draped over the third rail.
Orange rubber mat still standard
Speaking of the third rail, has anyone (drunks) got fried urinating on the third rail at surface grade crossing, ie Ravenswood or Douglas line of the CTA?
Long thread on The Other Side of the Tracks, which produced this link:
Estate of SANG YEUL LEE, Deceased, vs. CHICAGO TRANSIT AUTHORITY.
Aw geez ... no ... let's not do THAT again. That thread will 404 this place. :)
I have seen rabbits and squirrels do the same duckunder move.
600 VDC is nuttin compared to the main power distribution lines crisscrossing the country. Birds will sit on the lower ones provided ambient humidity is low...they are warm. Maintainance today is provided by helicopter...not unusual to have your hair stand up on end or see 'Northern Lights.' I was looking at work on the Lex with uncovered third rail besides brick/concrete work. Wet morter and live rail do not mix. CI Peter
You can find more than 600 volts in some household appliances like TV sets, computer monitors, etc.
In the spring of 1998, one of my friends almost got a personal introduction to >600 V DC and a Darwin Award when he took the back of his computer monitor off and thought about touching the CRT's neck coil but decided against it. A few hours later I found out about this when I got a phonecall from Nick asking, hypothetically of course, what would happen if he did that and then the truth came out.
-Robert King
Not really a fair drop though ... the "red wire" in a TV set is seriously current-LIMITED whereas you can pull down several thousand amps from a third rail before the magnablaster kicks. As amusing as the voltage is, it's the current flow that truly cooks the meat. And there's plenty to be had from the third rail.
PLEASE let's not have someone try the balance bar dance ...
Make the schlubs trade the TA shuffle for the balance bar test.
Nah, this'd only degrade to the other topic on the other place that set a record for entries in the thread. Na-ga-da ...
This thread has set me thinking. Maybe New York should go back using electrocution as the mode of execution, only, move it down to NYC, someplace in the basement of the Tombs, with a length of Centre St line third rail to do the job: basically, it's the subway ride to Hell.
Yes, it isn't fair to compare a TV set to a third rail, but if it's high voltage you want, you don't have to look far... Regarding the large current available in subway third rails, this is a rare interesting read from one of our local discussion boards:
From: ed.jordan@n...
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 10:41 am
Subject: Re: Speaking of Electrical Power and Streetcars (message 5774)
Here is my experience on the subject.
When Can-Car was building the H5 subway cars, Garrett-AiResearch, who
was supplying the traction controls and motors, wanted to know what
levels of short circuit current were available at various locations
on the TTC system, in order to size the car fuses. So, a series of
tests was arranged at different locations to put a short circuit
across the third rail and to measure the resulting current. The short
circuiting device was one of TTC's DC substation circuit breakers, a
unit about 8 feet high, and 4 feet square, which we mounted on one of
the subway work cars.
The most spectacular location was on the Yonge line, in the open cut,
just behind the old Canadian Tire store. There, we were almost
directly under the Asquith substation, one of the largest on the
system, and also received current from 4 other nearby substations.
When the breaker closed, there was an enormous flash and a bang, and
moments later many lights came on in the nearby apartments (it was
about 3 a.m.). The current was over 25,000 amperes, and the
connecting cables, with copper over 1 1/2" in diameter were seen to
jump off the ground. The car's third rail shoes were welded to the
rail and had to be chiselled off. The car's main fuse, which is an
enclosed tube about 6" in diameter, was still so hot after an hour
that it melted the snow when it was dropped on the ground.
So, having a shorting switch on each car is obviously impractical
because of the size of the device needed. Grounding switches on high
voltage AC locos are never intended to be closed on a live line,
although in those cases, the currents are much lower. If a mechanic
must work on the electrical system on a car, he can open the car's
main knife switch, and padlock it open, thus ensuring safety. And in
the shops, if he wants to work on the third rail shoes, he simply
does not connect the car to the overhead power "bug" system.
Each subway car was supplied from the factory with third rail shoe
isolating sticks, which were about 2 x 2" wood pieces, tapered at one
end, to lift the shoes off the third rail, although I never heard of
them being used, particularly since TTC's third rail has a top cover
board, which makes access to the shoes extremely difficult.
Finally, I don't think loss of ground is as much of a problem on the
subway. The only place it may occur is on the seldom used tail tracks
at terminal stations, and then, with at least 16 wheels in contact
with the rail, it's not likely.
600V * 25,000A = 15,000,000W in that third rail.
-Robert King
Grounding switches on high
voltage AC locos are never intended to be closed on a live line,
although in those cases, the currents are much lower.
Bzzzzzzt, wrong answer. On PRR era locomotives/MUs and on some MU's still today, the way one cut power to a train was to operate a penumatic switch that would ground out the pantograph. The resulting short would then trip the substation that was supplying the power thus cutting off the juice. I believe that MNRR M-2's still use this system. Today's modern technlogy allows for small compact circut breakers.
That's what I thought having read "When The Steam Railroads Electrified". I don't know what that guy who wrote that thought the pantograph ground clips were there for, if they're not to trip out the section breaker back at the substation. The other way to disconnect a train from the power supply is to lower and latch the pantographs.
-Robert King
The other way to disconnect a train from the power supply is to lower and latch the pantographs.
That's just it. You can't!!!! If a train is drawing high loads, if you try to drop a pan you will get an arc and the arc will burn right through the overhead. That is why you need either a breaker or a overload trip.
You only do it when the train isn't pulling lots of current (power controller in off position).
-Robert King
Are you quite sure of that? It seems like a ludicrous way to
interrupt power.
Old breakers (knife switches in oil) were too large and too hard to operate in locomotives and MU's. You coudln't drop the pans as the arc would burn through the overhead. The only push-button system available was one that blew out the substation.
What sort of grounding switch was this? Does Nasadowksi have
any info?
One can stand on the covers.
... not on the one for E3 (SB exp.) on Sea Beach. On some parts, the wooden covering is actually ON the 3rd rail.
** . . . in Chicago on the CTA there are no covers over the third rail.**
Also in Boston on the “T.” I noticed this on the Red Line (whose car widths are not too dissimilar to the BMT/IND specs), but I.I.N.M., this also applies to the Blue and Orange Lines.
Because of the damage done to the #1/#9 Subway because of the September 11 attack to the World Trade Center I have read about the possible rerouting of the #1/#9 line to West Street. In reality such a rerouting will not be in the best interest of the system because it will only make an improvement to West Side Passengers.For residents of Battery Park City or persons from the Upper East Side of Manhattan no improvement will be seen since riders will still have to transfer to an additional train.
Instead what about the posssibility of routing the 2nd Avenue Subway in lower Manhattan via Chambers Street and West Street instead of the existing Nassau Street or proposed Water Street routing.
A Chambers/West Street routing will allow riders to transfer to the Nassau Street,Lexington Avenue,Broadway,8th Avenue and 7th Avenue Lines and provide a one seat ride from Battery Park City/WorldFinancial Center to the Upper East Side and possible to Queens. The cost for such a route will be expensive because of the deep construction that will be required under Chambers Street since the new route will have to go under all existing Subway lines as well as the PATH Trains.
Any comments.
Thank You
The operative word there is "expensive". Won't happen. Review the thread on "IRT 1/9 Rebuild". The priority now is to rebuild what was damaged and destroyed as quickly as possible.
A branch of the Second ave line could use the old Worth st IND routing....
If money were available, it would make sense to me to extend the Lexigton Local down Park Row and Vesey to a Battery Park City terminal. That would eliminate the problem of having everyone abandon the #6 and cram on the #4 and #5 at Brooklyn Bridge station.
It's number 100 on the little list of things to do.
A better route would be via Barclay, to interchange with the West Side line's local in the basement of WTC7, and thence to West St. This would give east side access to WTC PATH, provide new service to BPC/WFC, and allow half of the east side locals to serve South Ferry. This would probably involve destruction of the old IRT City Hall Station which is now used to turn the 6 around.
Too many billions of dollars, tho', and more bang can be bought elsewhere for that kind of money.
"If wishes were horses, . . . ."
Does anyone know when the TA started saving cars for the Subway Museum??
By the same token [couldn't resist THAT one :)], when was the Transit Museum planned and/or started??
I already know the history of the Court. St. Shuttle Station (HH), and its logical choice for the museum.
Don Harold and Mike Hanna started saving the rolling stock in the 60's.
During the Bi-Cen (1976) Court Street open its door.
Now on the hand, The LIRR started a display in their Brooklyn Terminal, but it failed.
Q: When did the LIRR have the failed display at the Flatbush Terminal. This is the first I've heard of this...
BMTman
Doug: It was there in 1979. I visted it on January 11. They had cars which I believe were MP-54 emu's;1632,1633,1900 and combine 921.
Only 1632 and 901 were open to the public.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wow! Wish I'd have known...
Larry, thanks for the info...
With such great publicity, no wonder it failed.
Saw Mike Hanna, from a far, this past Sunday. He was amoung the attendees of a model show in Freeport, LI.
Also there were some folks from the stream engine 35 & 39 groups.
Were N, HO & O scale layouts running, incl. a trolley one.
Mr rt__:^)
Does anyone have a close up picture of the so-often-referred to duct tape on the roof of a slant 40??
Why is it there to begin with, anyway??
Filling up cracks??
Holding the roof on??
:)
[Why is it there to begin with, anyway??]
To prevent water seepage between the fiberglass cab ends, steel roof and stainless steel bodies.
Consider it weatherstripping for subway cars.
BMTman
What kind of condition is the roof in on some of these Slant R-40s?
#3 West End Jeff
Picture a 1964 Ford Fairlane parked on the boardwalk outside of Nathan's for 37 years ... you'll get the picture.
>>Does anyone have a close up picture of the so-often-referred to duct tape on the roof of a slant 40?? <<
NO pic here. but the "duct" tape is there because when it rains outside, it rains inside (the cab)!!
The LIRR M-1s have the same problem and use the duct tape fix too. This is where the fiberglass bonnett meets the stainless steel.
Check out the R-38s lately ? The unpainted roofs have what looks like silicone smeared on the cracks on the roof The silicone has turned black and looks dirty. The newly repainted roofs are either painted with some kind of roofing or marine paint. It looks thick and almost hides creases or rivets etc. That would work better than duct tape.
Bill "Newkirk"
Spray on pickup truck liner plastic might be a solution too. But alas, it comes too late for the eventual redbirditis which will soon eat them all alive.
>>But alas, it comes too late for the eventual redbirditis which will soon eat them all alive. <<
That's what is happening, Selkirk. The roofs have developed leaks and the steel members are rusting or rotting. It seems an R-38 may look like an R-32. But the R-32 is ALL stainless steel in the body. The TA and St.Louie goofed with a carbody with stainless steel sides and carbon steel roof. Shame on you St.Louis Car Co and NYCTA !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, in fairness, let's not forget that BUDD pulled a little unexpected surprise with the R-32's ... it was CHEAPER to build them all stainless with Budd's proprietary welding methods for Budd than the usual LAHT that was standard with the TA. From what I heard years ago, the TA didn't even KNOW they would be all stainless until long after the manufacturing began, and nobody knew that the all stainless would have been far superior to what had been spec'd past the 32's.
Of course the TA knows NOW and when Budd went under, other carbody makers had access to Budd's patented stainless assembly methods. But I wouldn't blame the TA for not understanding the differences until years afterward. When they caught on, the specs changed.
You'd think the benefits would be obvious. Stainless steel didn't rust. The TA had 10 R11 cars for 15 years prior to the R32's first delivery, so it did have SOME experience with the stuff.
Won't argue with you there ... but also bear in mind that the NAVY has some very old boats, much older than ANYTHING in the NYCTA yards made of LAHT ... only difference is the BOATS got scraped and painted every now and then. :)
Yeah, you know how those 40's love to speed along broadway at a stunning 10 mph, without the duct tape the rooves would just fly right off.
I always thought that the drag created by the duct tape prevented the slants from acheiving flight as they wizz down the Brighton express...
Now there you go ... one of the best rides left in the system is on one of those Slants on the Brighton.
Mr rt__:^)
From day one the slants had problems where the fiberglass front meets the stainless steel. It really isn't duct tape, but something similar. I remenber that when they were new, a few times they were taken o/s becuae fo cracks in the fiberglass fronts. But the R1/9's were in such sad shape, anything was an improvement!
First of all, it's not duct tape. It's a 3M product for which I can't recall the trade name. It's actualy a stainless steel foil with an epoxy adhesive backing. The epoxy sets up and hardens with heat and sunlight and makes a waterproof seal between the stainless steel carbody and the fiberglass bonnets. While this product was used mostly on the R-40s, there are a few R-46s that received the same 'quick fix'.
I know the stuff, too. I just use the generic term 'duct tape' to describe the foil-adhesive since that is what it looks like to the layman.
BTW, that stuff is used by some rail-restoration groups to do small bits of car body 'bondo' (using paint as a final application). I believe some of the Redbirds carry some of those adhesive strips in various areas of their bodies that had been severely consumed by rust.
The portion of the BMT 14 Street-Eastern District Line between Montrose Avenue and Atlantic Avenue openned for service on July 14,1928. I cannot say exactly when #16 14 Street-Canarsie Express service began but the 1931 BMT map has express service operating between 8 Avenue and Rockaway Parkway. Express service may have begun with the extension of the 14 Street Line from 6 Avenue to 8 Avenue on May 30,1931. #16 Expresses ran non-stop between Lorimer Street and Myrtle Avenue.
#13 -14 Street-Fulton Street Express service began on September 23,1936 using the then new Multis. These trains left Lefferts Avenue (as it was then known) at 733am,743am,753am and 803am. They left 8 Avenue at 504pm,516pm,528pm and 540pm. They ran non-stop between Lorimer Street and Myrtle Avenue on the 14 Street Line and non-stop between Hudson Street and Hinsdale Street on the Fulton Street El.
Once platforms were lengthened they made all stops between Hudson Street and Hinsdale Street.
April 30,1956 was the last day for the #13 14 St-Fulton St Exp
August 23,1956 was the last day for the #16 14 St-Canarsie Exp.
Larry,RedbirdR33
August 23, 1956:
Wait a minute! Do you mean to say 14th St Trains used the elevated, a few months after it was connected to the A Line?
Did I miss something?
-Stef
Stef: You misread the post. The last day for the #13 14 St-Fulton St Exp was April 30,1956 not August. The August 23 date is for the #16 14 Street-Canarsie Exp.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Sorry!
I'm daydreaming tonight. I will have a lot of time on my hands starting on Sunday. I need to take a ride into the Eastern Division.
Regards,
Stef
Highly recommended ... get in touch with Dougie and Heypaul. You'll never be the same. :)
Thanks for the definitive answer to my original post asking about the info on 14th St./Canarsie express service.
Tunnel Rat
Tunnel Rat: You're quite welcome.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Sounds like the expresses simply ran non-stop through Graham, Grand, Montrose, Morgan, Jefferson, and DeKalb on the same track as the normal local service. Is that true?
Yes
Wait a second, that has to mess up the whole run. If expresses are running every 10 minutes, how often are the locals running? And then again, isn't it common for an express to get caught up behind a local?
In this Disney movie, which I saw sometime ago, there is a filing system for doors which involves doors clamped by a clamp and moving along rails (like a suspended monorailtype concept). In one scene, when Monster Sully is chasing another monster by hanging onto the doors, the monsters hopped from door to adjacent doors (and doors on adjacent tracks) like subway surfers, and eventually they hopped onto a door which was going faster than the doors on the other track (where the monsters they were pursuing were travelling). Monster Sully then said:
"Must 'ave gotten on the Express"
Lexcie is glad to see that Disney, Inc. is featuring elementary concepts from New York City Transit, Inc., in their movie Monsters, Inc., in order to educate The Young, Inc., about the wonders of the subway. Way to go Disney!
Haven't seen the movie yet, but it sounds like it's advocating subway surfing. Not the sort of lesson we want to teach children!
Three guesses where I took these pix of this Acela Express trainset, with lead motor 2005.
The date was December 28, 2001:
Sorry about the poor photo quality. Seeing the train was a surprise, and all I had was a disposable 35mm camera! :O(
Let me see. ACELA's arrive on the NS Harrisburg Yard and Abrahm's Yard in Norristown after comming off the former PRR Buffalo Line. Your photos were clearly a former PRR yard what with the cat poles and all. The yard is quite long and wide and looks pretty empty with two mainline tracks in the foreground. The terrian is relitivly flat with no prominent buildings.
No doubt about it. The mystery location is the Harrisburg Relay Yard.
Gee, how'd ya guess! :O) If that's the one just north (westbound) of the station between it and the Cameron Street overpass, of course you got it. (I included the catenary poles as a clue. Then there's my handle. Duh.) Anyway, there were two dump cars on the south end of the consist and two boxcars on the north. No power was connected to either end. Made me think why don't they just lose the freight cars, get a nudge a half mile down the tracks, put up the pans, and have it power itself to Philly? I'd pay for a HAR-PHL Acela Express Special. Or I could wait. If history repeats itself, they'll end their days on the Main Line in 20 years or so.
I was learning at first towards Morrisville or Greenwhich, but then I remembered that they had to go from the Buffalo Line to Race St. Engine Terminal and this was the only PRR yard on the way. Shame Amtrak closed the engine facilities at HBG, they could have accepted and preped the engines there.
I was going to say Morrisville.
Through much of the 1990s, NYC was in a relative boom. Of course, not everyone benefited from it. However, there was enough general confidence to suggest that several expensive projects could actually be accomplished, and not occupy space on planning boards. Among them were...
--The 2nd Avenue Subway
--A new Penn Station in the Farley PO building
--New Yankee and Mets as well as NY Jets stadiums. (The need for a new Yankee Stadium is the most debatable).
However, NYC did not move on these projects while the city was flush. Then the economy in the city and the nation tanked, as it most always does in the business cycle. And the WTC was destroyed, pushing the economy further off the cliff.
I realize it's not as simple as that. Environmentalists, NIMBYs, and a host of other roadblocks are always in the way, regardless of the economy.
But I believe the city lost a great chance to create lasting public works in the 1990s.
Any opinions?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The City needed federal money and a host of political support in order to complete these projects, neither of which was there in the boom days (or more appropriatly, the dot.com boom days). In the case of the 2nd Ave., there was little political support for the project, and we certainly weren't going to get money for such an expensive project out of Congress (which, at the time and still is, consisted of mostly conservative Republicans who had serious qualms with Ex-Mayor Guiliani and not about to partially bankroll a new project after what Sen. Kennedy did with the "Big Dig" in Boston), or out of Albany (focus was upstate and was uusally late with its budgets). In the case of the Penn Station/Farley P.O., that project was derailed (no pun intended) by many things, not the least of which was Amtrak's unstable financial future (they mortgaged the current Penn Station in an attempt to stay financially solvent, so what makes anyone think that they'll still be around to move into the new one?), and the need for new emergency exits that would have spiked the costs of the project to levels that would price out political support. In the case of the statiums, well, that is still pending on what Bloomberg does about it.
I think the Farley project is still slowly moving along, despite Amtrak's financial situation.
I think the Farley project is still slowly moving along, despite Amtrak's financial situation.
Suspect that's right. I also suspect, in light of 9/11 and the quiet approval of some $$$ for 2 new Hudson tunnels last fall by some piece of national govt as part of post-9/11 appropriations, that the emergency exits for existing tunnels get heavily prioritized over a nice shiny new station for whatever follows Amtrak.
Me, I just want to make sure it gets called "Empire Station" rather than "Penn Station". As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state ....
As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state
Come on, you know it isn't named for the state of Pennsylvania :).
As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state
Come on, you know it isn't named for the state of Pennsylvania :).
OK, true. It's named after a RAILROAD, defunct for 30+ years, whose name included the state of Pennsylvania!
It would likely take 10+ years for New Yorkers to begin to call the long-distance part by a different name, but I think it would provide a nice separation between the commuter/subway parts and the long-distance rail parts. Old codgers like me who still refer to the "RCA Building" and the "Pan Am Building" would be a tougher nut to crack, but we are clearly a tiny minority.
Yeah and look how many people, even young, refer to the IRT, BMT, and IND!
How many young, non-railfan people refer to the BMT, IND and IRT?
Penn station was named after a railroad not the state of Pennsylvania.
And the railroad was named after a forest of writing implements.
First, i think we should stand for nothing less than the destruction of Madison [] Garden IV and 1 Penn Plaza and the conplete restoration of the 1910 station as it was. Too bad the terrorists didn't crash the planes those two monstrocities in MidTown.
Me, I just want to make sure it gets called "Empire Station" rather than "Penn Station".
Shame on you. The Railroad that gave this nation its premier rail line and its only non-ferry rail connections west deserved to have a little lasting credit.
>>>Too bad the terrorists didn't crash the
planes those two monstrocities in MidTown. <<<
Do you mean that?
I hope you're being facetious. I hope.
Yes I would have preferred the terrorists crashing the planes into MSG IV instead of the WTC. Woudln't anyone?
Yes I would have preferred the terrorists crashing the planes into MSG IV instead of the WTC. Woudln't anyone?
Hmmmm ... maybe that stupid kid in Tampa was a recent migrant from New York and really hated Madison Square Garden ... but his navigation skills were a bit shaky and he missed the target by 1,200 miles!
>>>>Yes I would have preferred the terrorists crashing the planes into MSG IV instead of the WTC. Woudln't
anyone? <<<
I'd rather they skip crashing planes anywhere.
I'd have to agree that Penn station should be rebuilt as it was, on the original site. We owe it to future generations, Unfortunately, I missed ever even stepping foot in the real Penn Station by 6 years. The people of the 60's robbed it from New York. But we also have to be realistic. I don't think it will ever happen, and unfortunately it isn't even feasible. Too bad. We'll have to accept the refurbished post office. At least it was designed by the same people.
If everyone in the city goes and demands Penn Station the way it was then it would probably happen. The great shout begins w/ a single voice.
It's too bad that no one heard the voices when the jackhammers started attacking the real thing.......
There weren't as many voices, and very few if any famous people.
Besides, at the time people thought it was old and ugly. If those people weren't dead by now, they should have had their eyes gouged out.
There weren't as many voices, and very few if any famous people.
By the standards of 1964, there were quite a lot. This was well before community activism and historic preservation became in any way common or even part of public consciousness. I think they had the architect Philip Johnson, IIRC, and a few other luminaries.
Sure, there were only a few dozen people picketing at the height ... but then Penn Station was only 50 years old when it was torn down, and historic preservation in that age was thought to be about places like Historic Williamsburg.
Its demolition got a NYC landmark preservation law passed, led to the formation of historic districts in the city and provided the legal framework under which Grand Central was saved.
Not that I would want to see Grand Central gone, it's a great building. But I think Penn station blew Grand Central away in grandeur. If one had to go I wish Penn was still there because it is still used for long distance trains. But please, don't get me wrong I wouldn't want to see GC gone either. But people traveling to NY get out in that disaster that Penn has become, not GC.
I want to see Grand Central gone. It is only fair. Why should only some of the commuters have to use a shitty station? Misery loves company.
Because the appearance of the building doesn't affect its utility. Penn Station is no more or less practical from a commuter's standpoint than before the demolition.
Their appearance is important because they are public buildings. Tearing down the second one doesn't create balance, it eliminates yet another gem from the city's crown.
>> Besides, at the time people thought it was old and ugly. <<
You couldn't be more wrong. The financially-ailing Pennsylvania Railroad decided that the air above the station was far more valuable as office space than a grandiose train station. In an attempt to create a revenue stream and save themselves, they sold the air rights to private industry (Gulf & Western at the time, I think). The remnants of the Pennylvania/Penn-Central RR live on as an insurance underwritng company (which up until a few years ago still went by the name "Penn Central Transportation Company").
In point of fact, the public furor over the demolition of Penn Station is what directly led to the creation of the Landmarks Preservation Commission, in order to prevent just such things from ever happening again. Folks here (rightly so) decry NIMBY-ism, but --ironically -- if it was more prevalent back then, Pennsylvania Station might still exist in its original form.
If nothing else, the destruction of Pennsylvania Station served to help save many other wonderful architecturally significant edifices from similar fates.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The remnants of the Pennylvania/Penn-Central RR live on as an insurance underwritng company (which up until a few years ago still went by the name "Penn Central Transportation Company").
UPDATE - Penn Central (PC) emerged from bankruptcy as the Penn Central Corporation (PCC) (PC shareholders received ONE PCC share for every 25 PC shares they owned). It eventually changed its name to American Premier Underwriters and later again to American Financial Group.
I have their 1978 Annual report. They owned the whole Six Flags series of amusement parks.
Is that the same as the National Register of Historic Landmarks? Denver's Union Station, built in the same Beaux Arts style as Grand Central Terminal, is on that register.
I passed through what was left of Penn Station in July of 1965. Unfortunately, I don't remember anything except for the booming announcer's voice over the loudspeakers. There was a post a while bach which stated that the concourse was still intact in 1965, and judging from the photos I've seen, there were speakers at each stairwell leading down to the tracks. So that must have been where we were while waiting for our train to Linden after spending the day at the World's Fair.
I rode on the subway for the first time the following day, and the rest is history.
while I certainly wish no casualties, the demolition of the two eyesores and the reconstruction of the glorious original ARE the correct maneuvers. And yes even as a diehard B&O fan (arch rival of PRR) the name is was and shall ever be Penn Station.
The B&O wasn't the arch rival of the PRR, the NYC was.
Depends on where you are located. While you and I both think of the PRR/NYC rivalry as #1, the PRR/B&O rivalry ran a close second, and in many areas was far more important.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
PRR/Reading was second.
AND WE (B&O) owned the RDG which owned the CRRNJ.
If you think B&O PRR was not a rivalry, read Herb Harwood's excellent book on the Royal Blue Route. PRR and B&O often competed for routes, business, and buying up smaller lines. All that said, PRR DID do a better job on the NY Wash lines, although with the exception of the Broadway when it was all Pullman, their ding cars were distinctly inferior to those of the B&O.
First, i think we should stand for nothing less than the destruction of Madison [] Garden IV and 1 Penn Plaza and the conplete restoration of the 1910 station as it was.
Whoa - wait a minute!!! I work in One Penn Plaza. It's TWO Penn Plaza that's on the site of the former Pennsylvania Station. One Penn Plaza is between 33rd and 34th Sts. Penn Station was between 31st and 33rd Sts.
As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state ....
Guess you must have forgotten about Grand Central...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state ....
Guess you must have forgotten about Grand Central...
Mean to say "long-distance train station" ... since GCT is now commuter-only and serves primarily NY residents (plus some Conneticuters).
Are Amtrak trains ever rerouted to GCT if, for whatever reason, they can't get to Penn?
Are Amtrak [Empire] trains ever rerouted to GCT if, for whatever reason, they can't get to Penn?
I highly, highly doubt it. More likely they'd be terminated at Yonkers or points above. I doubt that Amtrak speaks at all to the Metro North folk who control all of GCT now.
(And I find it interesting that, due I'm sure to incompatible 3rd rail, there is planned to be no interchange whatsoever between new LIRR portion of GCT and existing Metro North portion.)
So the new Hudson tunnels will become a reality?
YES! YES! YES!
Me, I just want to make sure it gets called "Empire Station" rather than "Penn Station". As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in
New York, New York, is named after some other state ....
Sounds good to me!
:-) Andrew
C'mon! These are NON-liberal times ... aim higher! *TRUMP* STATION! (sorry, Enron station's already taken) ...
we certainly weren't going to get money for such an expensive project ... out of Albany (focus was upstate and was uusally late with its budgets).
That may change, however. A seismic shift happened in the 2000 elections. The New York State electorate historically broke into two parts: Upstaters (usually including Westchester & LI) and NYC. For most of the century, those parts were roughly equal in size and power, and horsetrading got done between the two. NYC owned the Assembly, upstate owned the State Senate.
In 2000, however, it became clear that there are now three roughly equal parts. Upstate is economically and socially conservative, NYC is economically and socially ... ummm ... progressive, and a new third group -- EQUAL IN SIZE AND RICHER THAN EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO -- is economically conservative but socially progressive.
This suburban group (think Chappaqua) often supports transit projects (although suburban rail often trumps NYC subways). I think over the long term, the political calculus in NYS will become more favorable to transit funding.
they mortgaged the current Penn Station in an attempt to stay financially solvent
Almost always a financially prudent thing to do anyway. A mortgage is the cheapest money you can borrow (except if you count Islamic interest free loans), so it is a great way of funding something on which you expect a return.
What self-respenting government agency would spend money on a stadium rather than on transit? I'll tell you, I would never vote for anyone who would do that.
- Lyle Goldman
>>New Yankee and Mets as well as NY Jets stadiums. (The need for a new Yankee Stadium is the most debatable).<<
How about new Yankee and Mets stadiums built with money from the teams and the private sector ? In other words, leave the taxpayers out ! The new stadiums would generate tax dollars anyway, would they ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not so concerned. The idea for the Second Avenue line has been poking around for something like 75 years now, through other flush times besides the 1990's, and of course nothing has been accomplished. Conversion of the Farley post office to Amtrak use was of dubious usefulness. What was and is needed are two more tunnels under the Hudson, but no one seemed to take interest. As far as the stadiums are concerned, I'm glad they weren't built. Taxpayer money should not be used to subsidize zillionaire team owners.
Conversion of the Farley post office to Amtrak use was of dubious usefulness. What was and is needed are two more tunnels under the Hudson, but no one seemed to take interest.
Think that's changed post-9/11 as noted elsewhere on this thread.
Yeah I think the Post office Penn station Amtrak plan is back on track again.
Why does the TA mislead it's employees and the public into thinking that the redbirds are on their last legs? We all know it's going be awhile before they're fully replaced. I expect to see them on the 7 line until at least July, maybe even the end of 2002.
Why are the simplest tasks so difficult?
Example. I'm on the 4 s/b at 12:25am at 125st. We go express. I comment to my friend that it's too late for an express, let me ask the C/R what's going on. I'm told that there is a work train on the local track, so we have to go express.
When we arrive at 59th, I leave the 4 train and make my way to the street in search of a cab. It's late, and I'm not about to get
d!cked around on the Queens Corridor, so I just splurge on a taxi. On my way up, I pass the s/b local platform. What do I find? About 100 people waiting for a s/b 4. I asked if an announcement was made stating that the next 4 train would arrive on the lower platform. If you subtalkers know anything about the TA, you know what the answer to my question was. Why weren't these people told that the next train would arrive on the lower platform?
WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR A TA EMPLOYEE TO ANNOUNCE ON THE PA SYSTEM, "ATTENTION PASSENGERS, THE NEXT 4 TRAIN WILL ARRIVE ON THE LOWER PLATFORM"?????????????????????????????????????????????
Usually, the opposite is the case. People are left stranded on the lower platform by the TA, while no announcement is made regarding a rerouting.
One morning, I was traveling uptown waiting for a 4 or 5. I was on the lower level at 59th(express tracks) and noticed by the headlights that the approaching train was not a passenger train. It was definitely a work train. I quickly informed some people around me, and we ran upstairs for any uptown train. When we got upstairs, a n/b 4 came into the station. I asked some of the people who ran up with me if an announcement was made, and they all said "no".
What would it have taken for a TA employee working in the tower to make the announcement so that people aren't left waiting for a train that isn't coming?????????????????
I have worked in a station with a PA System and have made announcements. The people refuse to listen. I have worked stations where a G.O. suspended service with trains in one-drection runnign express. They ask where the uptown is and I break the bad news. They cuss me out and wait anyway. An hour later they come back and gripe why I did not tell them there was no train. I repeat the explanation and they say " I just want the train." I then tell them the next train is 5am and they cuss you out and walk away muttering about stupid transit employee and how subways should not run at night.
Not all stations have PA systems and not all towers make announcements even if the station has a PA. (Some PA systems can only be used by the tower- ie no mike in the booth.) I myself have seen TSSs on a platform where there is a G.O. amd have asked them to please ask the tower to make announcements.
So in summary:
1. People don't listen to announcements.
2. Even when they do listen they can't hear them, either because of extraneous noise (which brings us back to the thread on subway musicians) or defective speakers.
3. TA employees who know of a problem can't always make an announcement because they have no mike or there are no speakers.
4. TA employess who know of a problem may not bother to make an announcement even if they could.
My feeling is that the situation is better than 10 years ago: more working speakers, more effort by the TA to make announcements. But the TA still has a ways to go.
As for #1, that's their problem (and if they are tourists who don't speak English, that's just one of the hazards of being a tourist in a foreign land).
#1 There are 26 languages in register with NY motor vehicles....there are 146 languages heard in the subways...the TA rule for employment is that you must be able to speak and be understood in English and understand English. Not being able to communicate means you're lost or doomed to demise. CI Peter
Excellent point. Yesterday I was at Penn Station (8th Ave Subway) at about 6:15 AM. There was a stalled A train at Canal St. and announcements were being made that downtown A service was being diverted to the local tracks. The announcements were loud enough and clear enough to be easily understood. This meant that people waiting on the express platform for a downtown A train should X-over to the local platform. Some did! Others just stood there, staring at the speakers in the ceiling of the station or staring into the tunnel. Confused? Paralyzed by fear of the unknown? Not in a rush? Just plain stupid? Don't speak english? All of the above? Beats me.
Over on the Lexington line, they never make the announcements. Never! For some reason, the passengers are on their own. Especially at midnight. It's at this time that the 4 is supposed to run local, while the 6 and 5 trains run shuttle in the Bronx. It's not at all uncommon for a work train on the downtown local tracks to cause a downtown local 4 to be rerouted on the express tracks (lower level) with no annoucements made.
Let me currect you on one thing. The No.6 Line runs from Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge 24/7.
Really? It didn't use to. The 6 used to run from Pelham Bay Park to 125 St. overnight, with the 4 providing all Lex service in Manhattan south of 125 St.
When did this change? Just curious.
-- Tim
About two or three years ago, the TA extended IRT 6 Lex/Pelham service from 125th to Brooklyn Bridge at all times, instead of just 5AM-Midnight.
OIC, thanks. My last visit to NY was in the fall of '97 (and even then, I wasn't paying attention to the details of which terminals the various lines went to).
Regards,
Tim
Standard overnight headways are 20 minutes on each route. A few years ago, the TA decided to improve overnight headways on the busier corridors by "doubling up" routes. In most cases, this was done by turning an express into a local, giving us the 1/2, A/E, and E/F (Queens). The Lex IRT only had one overnight service to begin with, the 4, so the 6 was extended to Brooklyn Bridge to provide the second service. A wise move all around, IMO; my only question is why it wasn't done on every line that had/has one express and one local overnight (D/F pre-7/22, N/Q post-7/22, A/D on CPW). Notice that Queens Boulevard now has its late night express service back, since the E and G adequately cover the local; no other line has three late night services.
I used to take the Lex downtown from GCT on occasion at 5 PM (though not in the last year). I heard quite a few announcements concerning delays.
There was a stalled A train at Canal St. and announcements were being made that downtown A service was being diverted to the local tracks. The announcements were loud enough and clear enough to be easily understood.
One problem with audio communications is that it is transitory. Signs offer the possibility of reaching a greater number of people over time. Electronic displays every 50 feet would be good but a high tech solution is not required. The Paris Metro used a blackboard. The words "Retard des Trains" was painted on top. The ticket agent would post any delays. There were even hooks at each subway entrance to hang these blackboards.
Others just stood there, staring at the speakers in the ceiling of the station or staring into the tunnel. Confused? Paralyzed by fear of the unknown? Not in a rush? Just plain stupid? Don't speak english? All of the above? Beats me.
Perhaps they had heeded TA announcements in the past. I've had enough bad experiences where I'd been directed to take non-existent services to listen to TA announcements with a healthy dose of skepticism.
"Perhaps they had heeded TA announcements in the past. I've had enough bad experiences where I'd been directed to take non-existent services to listen to TA announcements with a healthy dose of skepticism."
I thought we were going to go in a different direction. Why the Penn Station 7th Ave & 8th Ave. Subway stations were designed the way they were. I suppose there was a logic to using one Island platform for the uptown and downtown express services while using the outside platforms for the local service. Every AM I have to guess whether to wait on the local platform for the 'C' or the express platform for the 'A' - or run through the X-over if I guess wrong.
Getting back to your original point, ignoring the announcements are not the answer. If an alternate service is announced and is non-existent, I'd say complain loud and often. The TA is very customer driven and a full-scale investigation will be launched. They really do try to correct inadequacies when they are reported.
The Paris Metro used a blackboard. The words "Retard des Trains" was painted on top.
A terrific expression!
"The words "Retard des Trains" was painted on top."
Yeah, that'll go over big. I can just hear it now at the typical Brooklyn subway station; "Who you's guys callin' a retard?"
We already have a whiteboard in most booths which is used for service delay info and reroutes. I have worked booths where we had the board and there was a message on the board in English and Spanish and I made announcements and taped off the platform and popsted signs and still they calimed no one told them. We cant drag them by the hair. All we can do is say "I'm sorry, but dudue to track work there is no.... The next train will be at 5am or 5am Monday and still they wait!
Thankyouverrrrymuch in de orne. CI Peter
Those of us working in the subway see and experience the lowest forms of human behavior daily. After 22 years of experiencing it daily pounding the road, I am getting to the end of my rope.
Do you the way they have posted service notices all over the 1 line informing people that there is NO NORTH BOUND #2 service this weekend, but there they were with that stupid look on their faces. Followed by the question "Is the 2 running?"
And I'm in trouble taking the train to work.....the #2 is the only trainset to get to my yard which is its home. CI Peter
When entering the Montague Tube from Whitehall Street, I notice 2 small "alcoves" that look like they were to be diverging tunnels to somewhere.
Does anyone have any info on any plans to where those might have been going to?
It has been discussed already in here. Either it was the beginning of a line to Staten Island. Or a line going to Brooklyn. Possibily linking up to the IND at Court St
The bellmouths in the tunnel wall south of Whitehall Street were for a proposed alternate route to Brooklyn. The provision for the Staten Island connection is on the 4 Avenue subway in Brooklyn.
Larry,RedbirdR33
IIRC, someone on here said that these bellmouths were for a parallel set of tubes for the Broadway local so that the entire existing Montague St. tunnel could be devoted to Nassau loop service.
I recall reading somewhere in this forum that it's an offramp for diverting trains that are out of control coming through Whitehall, so they don't derail in the tunnel (which would be a big PITA, to say the least).
Do you put HUMMUS on your PITA?
:0)
I don't know how many of u guys uses the Grand Streets Shuttle to commute to work or school daily. But,I do and Let me tell u. I hate them and they are mad f****** slooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwww and sucks as in Capital "S" train. I'm sick waiting 10 min for the shuttle to get to west 4 to I tranfer for the F to get to mah school. I never been late to school when B D Q were still running on 6th Ave. And ever since the that "S"tupid "S"huttle settle in. I've been late to school at least 6 time which I no long have prefer attendants. Thanks to the "so called" "S"tupid Shuttle I will not received a prefect attendants awards for this year. Boy, I can't wait til 2004. By them I hoped the TA will completely destroyed that shuttle for good. Now why TA named Grand Street Shuttles as an "S" train. Because it Stands for "Stupid So-called Slowpoke Shuttle train." Even the 42nd street shuttle are fastered than that stupid train. And I don't understand why TA didn't extended B D service to Grand street. I sured it will make commuter who uses 6th Ave line an easier way.
By the way, happy new years to everyone.
>>Thanks to the "so called" "S"tupid Shuttle I will not received a prefect attendants awards for this year.<<
Just set your alarm clock 15 minutes earlier and also leave your home 15 minutes earlier than you normally do. SIMPLE!
Bill "Newkirk"
Or take alternate service.
Work on the spelling and grammar instead of the attendance.
I think the last time the MB was closed to 6Av, they had an orange shuttle from Grand St to 57th, but of course this was before the 63rd Conn. opened.
<<<"I think the last time the MB was closed to 6Av, they had an orange shuttle from Grand St to 57th, but of course this was before the 63rd Conn. opened.">>>
I remember this as well. With this in mind, why couldn't the "V" train run to Grand Street for the duration of the Manny B repairs? The shuttle could run weekends.
How many times does it have to be said that there is no switch outside Grand Street that would allow for a decent level of service on a regular (non-shuttle) line?
David
Not only that, but I must assume that MOST SubTalkers are residents of the NY Metropolitan area. Especially the guys with subway sounding "handles", don't these guys know the physical characteristics of the system? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what happens when we ass-u-me!
You can't actually blame the TA for designing the Manhattan Bridge in a way that caused it to be damaged every time a subway ran over it. They are doing the best they can with a bad situation.
Have you considered walking to Delancey and Essex or 2nd Ave for an F, or to Bowery, Canal, or even Spring St. for a train that connects with the F? Depending on exactly where you live, one of these options is probably quicker than waiting for the shuttle.
Also, have you conidered downloading from the MTA site the printable schedule that tells you exactly when the shuttle runs? From 5:57 AM to 9:57 PM it leaves Grand St every 12 mins.
Al: Hear, hear!
How much money and time would it cost to demolish the Manhattan Bridge and build a cantilever or arch bridge in its place?
Alternatively, how much money and time would it cost to move the subway tracks to the centre of the Bridge?
With all the time and money they just poured/are pouring into the MB, that won't happen any time soon.
The idea of the current repairs is that they will make the bridge so stiff that it can tolerate the trains running on the outside. Assuming proper design (let's hope they get it right this time around), the problem is solved for all our lifetimes.
It might have been cheaper to tear down the bridge and rebuild it the correct way, but it would have been a disaster for NYC to do it that way, losing all 4 tracks and the 6 or more highway lanes for many years.
I think what would be more workable would be to convert the rail lanes on Manny to driving lanes (they should be wide enough), giving two new lanes in each direction (I think that's a grand total of 4 in each direction, plus the three center lanes which are currently into Manhattan - currently there are 2 lanes outbound and 5 inbound, a rather asymmetric setup), then build a new bridge entirely devoted to rail traffic alongside it. Perhaps leave 2 of the rail lanes on the old bridge and connections to it, for use in emergencies. That way you'd have 4 lanes going out of the city (2 sets of 2 lanes each) and 5 inbound (1 deck with 2 lanes and another deck with 3 lanes).
Better yet, rather than doing it bass ackwards as suggested above, build the new bridge first (four or more rail lanes)), move the train service to the new lanes (which could include new LIRR or MNRR tracks as well?), then pave the old tracks on Manny (or pave 2 of the tracks and leave 2 as is for emergency use) and turn them into road lanes.
Now THAT would be a solution for the future!
How much more would a new four-track tunnel cost?
As I look back, the money used to build the 63rd St. line (ok, the money was appropriated long before 1984 when all these MannyB problems started) could have been more wisely spent on a new tunnel under the MannyB. But I doubt if any politico or DOT ever thought repairs would take beyond the year 2000.
"As I look back, the money used to build the 63rd St. line (ok, the money was appropriated long before 1984 when all these
MannyB problems started) could have been more wisely spent on a new tunnel under the MannyB."
Where do you come up with that? Illogical - the two are different issues. Queens grew the fastest of any borough in the city during the past twenty years, yet had very little subway service added to it. The 63rd St line was designed to serve commuters for whom the Manny B was not relevant. Check your geography.
It was not forseen in the 1960's that the line would be truncated due to fiscal issues; however, even the current line does offer a 20% increase in total rail capacity into Manhattan.
" But I doubt if any politico
or DOT ever thought repairs would take beyond the year 2000."
True enough. But you haven't made the case that a new tunnel would be cost-effective. Continued service on the reopened south side will prove the Manny B repair's cost-effectiveness.
If the 63rd St. tunnel was built for the intended purpose, that is to hook up with a brand new line through Queens, then I would feel that it was put to good use. However, all this line does is give the TA an alternate route to/from Queens and sends F line riders to stations on Sixth Ave. via 63rd St. instead of 53rd St.
Wrong.
The 63rd St line's acual functions were described inmmany posts here and on the TA's website. They are still there if you are inclined to do some homework.
The 63rd St project resulted in a net gain of local track capacity into Manhattan. The F was rerouted onto 63rd St and the G was truncated, resulting in an additional local train (the V) being sent to Manhattan.
Thus, two express services plus two locals became two express plus three locals. If you consider total Queens service, including the 7 train, you get three express services (one peak-direction only, the 7) and four local trains, up from three.
Redirecting the F also allowed a more efficient passenger distribution based on riding distance, as well as offering upper East Side and Roosevelt Island commuters a new way into Queens.
Are you saying that a new line thru Queens was never planned to be hooked up to the 63rd St. tunnel when the MTA was created in the late 60's?
Chairman Bill Ronan was smoking some really BAD stuff. :)
No, there was a line planned - a bypass track along LIRR ROW to Forest Hills. NYC's fiscal crisis in the 70's prevented that from being accomplished.
It could still be built today, I suppose. There's nothing preventing the TA from installing another bellmouth to do it - except $$$, that is.
Right! And that was the reason why the money was appropriated! The money was not appropriated for the purpose of utilising it in the manner it is being used as of 12/10/01. That is the precise reason why I think the money could have been used elsewhere more wisely: a new tunnel for Manhattan Bridge replacement. I fully realise my post belongs in Fantasy SubTalk however!
"Right! And that was the reason why the money was appropriated!"
No, the money was NOT appropriated (not enough of it). That's the whole problem. There wasn't enough money in the pot to accomplish it.
"The money was not appropriated for the purpose of utilising
it in the manner it is being used as of 12/10/01."
Wrong again. Like I said, you need to do some homework before you post, so you can deal with facts. A local connection to Queens Blvd. was always an option in the plan, so the connection that was built could just as easily been opened in the 1970's given sufficient funding.
"That is the precise reason why I think the money could have been used
elsewhere more wisely: a new tunnel for Manhattan Bridge replacement."
It could also have been used to start building a tunnel to Staten Island. Neither project would help Queens commuters, who were the intended beneficiaries of the money. The 63rd St Connector as built today is the one that actually fulfilled one of the objectives of the original plan.
The bellmouth is there for the route to and through the Sunnyside yards,so a line could be placed going east [see the specs for the coonector] I wonder if the T.A. will extend the row along with the Long Island Railroad's new East side line?
They could. The trench for the East Side Access tunnel is being dug in the yard now. The existing LIRR tunnel extends just to the yard now, and must be connected to the Main Line and Port Washington branch.
This is one of those projects that should have been completed in the 1970's, were it not for the city's financial collapse.
Wouldn't it be nice to be on a Manhattan-bound express and NOT have it come to a screeching halt waiting for tunnel clearance?
They could. The trench for the East Side Access tunnel is being dug in the yard now.
Doh! I never realized it ... but in fact, if they're trenching under Sunnyside now for the LIRR tunnel ... how can they NOT do a two-level tunnel for the Super Express?
Wow.
But you gotta know they aren't going to do any such thing. This project isn't mentioned anywhere on their website, or in any study since the 1960s that I know of. And I have to think that some SubTalker would have referred to it by now.
Another chance for better service being lost right in front of our eyes?
Aaaarrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Write to them and let them know. You have nothing to lose. The East Side Access project doesn't interfere with it - after all, the Super-Express would be headed for the surface and its own ROW while the LIRR tunnel rises slowly and merges with existing LIRR ROW (actually, several new tunnels will be needed under the yard).
The only issue is money. If you want this, MTA has to propose it for an upcoming Capital Plan.
Write to them and let them know. You have nothing to lose.
I'm saving my fire for the issues that impact me personally. Selfish, I know, and guilty, but it's for my own mental health. But I bet the many, many Queens residents on SubTalk may feel differently.
The East Side Access project doesn't interfere with it - after all, the Super-Express would be headed for the surface and its own ROW while the LIRR tunnel rises slowly and merges with existing LIRR ROW (actually, several new tunnels will be needed under the yard).
Since the LIRR trains and SuperExpress trains would enter the tunnel bellmouths directly above/below one another, I have to think that the SuperExpress needs to be tunneled under the yard just as the LIRR does. Sure, it would emerge parallel to the LIRR alignment rather than switching/flying under/over into it ... but you still gotta get it across Sunnyside to the 63rd Street tunnel, no?
(Would they do a crossover switch for the Super Express, or a proper flyunder? It could get hairy with the Queens Blvd. line traffic if they tried flat crossovers .... )
What transit issues affect you personally?
Rmember that if you support somebody else's issue, maybe that somebody else comes back and supports yours...you never know.
What transit issues affect you personally?
Huh. Interesting question. Mostly subways Manhattan 42nd Street to Battery Park, esp. Second Avenue line (I live on Third). Metro North Hudson Line (would really have liked them to extend it to Rhinecliff, but I understand why that died). LIRR south shore line in the summer (love the new bilevels, thank god, but still hate Jamaica). And the Ulster & Delaware Railroad and the three tourist RRs along its length.
Aside from that, random infrastructure stuff that interests me, like 63rd Street (which is where this comes in). Wrote an article on it in about 1992 and read the entire DEIS. Fun stuff.
What are yours?
Remember that if you support somebody else's issue, maybe that somebody else comes back and supports yours...you never know.
I know, I know. [sigh] Got less energy these days. But I know all about coalition-building from activist days in late '80s/early '90s. I think in some ways I've had it burned out of me. I pick my issues very carefully now, for peace of mind.
Well, I served on the borough prez' Second Av task force until I relocated to Philly in '01, and I still keepin touch with the MTA on that one. Read the DEIS, testified in front of Sheldon Silver's committee, secured publifc support for 2nd Av from certain Queens pols and helped the Straphangers leaflet on the subject. So it is near and dear to my heart.
You have your hands full with that! I encourageyou to keep writing to them - 2nd Av will happen.
I spent on a lot of free time on AirTrain, too, over six years. Got a lot of satisfaction from that.
A partner and I once obtained an exclusive license from the TA to do a computer game based on the map and created a computer game called RIDE AND SEEK. Ran on the Atari ST and IBM PC, but our potential publisher backed out because of changing market conditions. This was back in 1990-91.
Good grief, my typing stinks!
Well, I served on the borough prez' Second Av task force
Huh. I know exactly ONE City Councilperson (a holdover who wasn't term-limited out). Wonder if that would get me anywhere? I'd certainly be willing to serve on such a Task Force. Thoughts?
I still keepin touch with the MTA on that one. Read the DEIS, testified in front of Sheldon Silver's committee, secured publifc support for 2nd Av from certain Queens pols and helped the Straphangers leaflet on the subject. So it is near and dear to my heart.
Clearly! Most of my activities of that ilk have been for other causes. Transit is one thing I haven't done a lot of advocacy for. I follow it for fun, I s'pose.
I encourageyou to keep writing to them - 2nd Av will happen.
Stubway first? Wanna handicap the 2 downtown alignments?
I spent on a lot of free time on AirTrain, too, over six years.
Yeah, that one interests me too. Thoughts on through-running from Penn?
The Stubway is going to happen first. That's reality. We either accept it at this point, reminding the TA that the lower half must be built too, or we protest and end up killing the whole thing - not a good idea.
MTA just visited them in December and went through what the planning options were for lower Manhattan.
Contact the Manhattan Borough President's Office. They are located on the 19th floor of the municipal building at One Centre Street, zip code 10007. The phone number is listed in your phone book.
Introduce yourself. Tell them how much you care about this. After all, you are one of the Prez' constituents. They want to know your opinion on the subject. Tell them a bit about yourself and ask how you can be helpful to the task force.
You can write a letter (send a copy to your city councilman and your state assemblyman and senator, please. If you don't know who they are, your councilman's staff can tell you, based on your street address.And write to the Governor). Send by postal service, not email. Email in politicians' offices tends to be deleted wholesale unless the recipient knows it's coming and wants to read it.
AirTrain to Penn? East Side Access needs to be completed first.
Ulster and Delaware RR is a transit issue? Is there the slightest chance on earth of getting actual trains service that goes somewhere (not tourist sightseeing trains) on that line?
I wouldn't mind seeing train service to Stamford NY again (I know people who rode it, but they're getting pretty old by now), but I would think there's not a chance.
Ulster and Delaware RR is a transit issue? Is there the slightest chance on earth of getting actual trains service that goes somewhere (not tourist sightseeing trains) on that line?
Nope! But it falls into the same category in my mind. It's just the way my head's organized ... "Rail Stuff" and "Other Stuff".
The bellmouth is there for the route to and through the Sunnyside yards,so a line could be placed going east [see the specs for the coonector] I wonder if the T.A. will extend the row along with the Long Island Railroad's new East side line? I believe the tunnel ends at the eastern side of Northern blvd at the old T.A. building.
Correct. That building is being or was just demolished to make way for extending the tunnel.
<<<"It could still be built today, I suppose. There's nothing preventing the TA from installing another bellmouth to do it - except $$$, that is.">>>
There IS a bellmouth just east of 21 St/Queensbridge, pointed southwards. I saw it myself when I rode an R32 F through the line a few weeks ago.
Cool.
Nobody is denying the benefits of the current 63rd. St setup. But with the amount of money spent in building it, were these benefits worth it? Especially since we STILL don't have any 2nd Ave. subway?
Worth every penny, especially since there were no fiscally realistic alternatives in the 1990's,and since the current project doesnot preclude in any way further development of subway options in Queens.
Redirecting the money to a Manny B replacement has not been shown to be cost-effective for Brooklyn, and wouldn't help Queens at all. If money were no object, I think new subway tunnels to replace Manny B service would be great. But so would subway or SIRTOA service from Penn Station or GCT to Staten Island. The Manny B repairs are adequate for the task.
As o Second Av: that project is near and dear to my heart, and I'm very glad that engineering is moving forward. You want it built? Take some of your passion and energy and write letters to your elected officials, and to the Governor, and organize your pals to do the same, and tell them that building the subway is one of the ways their constituents will judge whether or not they should be reelected. Don't let up until that tunnel-boring machine starts chewing dirt. And then don't let up anyway.
I agree. Beyond thw flexibility it allows should 53rd or 60th Sts. become blocked, the new 63rd. St. tunnel as it's used today was a waste of resources. The service increases allowed by this new tunnel could've been made by simply operating the 60th St tunnel to it's fullest capacity.
The problem with the 63rd St tunnel is that it was part of a grand new subway line. The crisis in the 70's spoiled that, but in 89 they were left with the tunnel to nowhere, so they opened it to Queensbridge, so what they did after was the lesser of two evils. It was there, so why leave it ending at Queensbridge they connected it to Queens Blvd. Not ideal, but better than just letting it sit. Maybe oneday it will get better use, but what they are doing is better than just letting it rot, or just ending at Queensbridge.
How long did the tunnel sit (between 57th/6th and Queensbridge) largely complete but unused? I'd been under the impression that beyone sinking the river tubes, pretty much nothing got done between the early 70s and mid 80s........
That's correct.
Funding to complete the 63rd St line to 21 St and put it into operation was included in the Capital Plan covering 1982-1986, if I am not mistaken. The capital five year plans were a new concept, and finally allowed a rational, sustained funding process for the subways. The line was finally opened in 1989.
That's a fallacy often repeated here; an assertion with little basis in fact. the 60th Street tunnel cannot fulfill the mission for which the 63rd St tunnel was designed.
The original 63rd St plan always included a local connection option, and this, in fact was built. The bypass track was not, but nothing prevents MTA from adding it should there be sufficient demands and available money.
I believe people would ride a bypass line, but an even better investment would be a new subway line running north of Queens Blvd. to areas of the city whose residents must trudge to Queens Blvd. to catch a train.
The re-route flexibility, the opening of Roosevelt Island to redevelopment, and the successful introduction of new service to an underserved borough speak for themselves.
For Queens IND riders, operating 2 60th St lines along the local tracks would meet the capacity now being met on all 4 routes. It doesn't address the additional service along Sixth Ave, though. But the 63rd. St tunnel was built to improve Queens subway service, so that's irrelevant to this discussion.
"For Queens IND riders, operating 2 60th St lines along the local tracks would meet the capacity now being met on all 4 routes."
No, it would not. Chris, it's patently illogical to even consider an argument like that. It's false on its face. It's mathematically impossible to recreate the same Manhattan-bound service with an extra tunnel by service changes in the 60th Street tunnel. With G service withdrawn from Queens Blvd., there's more physical space to push trains through to Manhattan. That's the key, and it would have been meaningless without the extra tunnel.
Service frequency is also affected by rolling stock. When rolling stock increases, service frequency in all tunnels can increase.
But of course you know all that already, don't you? You just like giving the rest of us a hard time. :0)
Note that if the 60th Street tunnel were not also fed by the Astoria N, Chris would have a good point. Without the Astoria train, you could increase service through existing tunnels without building a new connection.
But of course you know all that already, don't you? You just like giving the rest of us a hard time. :0)
No, I'm dead serious.
If you rerouted the W to Forest Hills instead Astoria, the local tracks would have exactly TWO fewer trains per hour during the rush hours as they now have with the V.
And what if MTA simply replaced the W's with more N's? Net effect: you still have two lines feeding into the 60th Street tube. So you haven't solved anything.
There is another issue here, and it's similar to what happened with AirTrain. The city set aside money to fix the Manny B. It comes from a pot of money outside MTA's budget. So MTA gets the Manny B fixed for free (from the agency's point of view), vs. MTA having to pay for a new tunnel.
Similarly, AirTrain was built from a non-general tax fund, the PFC, while anything MTA did would have come from its own budget (2/3 of Jamaica Station rehab will still be MTA money, though).
So it's understandable why MTA looked at this and said, "why should we pump $3 billion into a new tunnel, when the city will fix the Manny B anyway?" I would have made the same decision.
Even if I didn't like the Connector project, I still wouldn't have necessarily spent money on a new tunnel to replace the Manny B - I might have done some other project with it, like extending the F train further up Hillside, or accelerating the rate of construction on LIRR's East Side Access project.
And what if MTA simply replaced the W's with more N's? Net effect: you still have two lines feeding into the 60th Street tube. So you haven't solved anything.
Perhaps I didn't make myself more clearer. Diverting another line like the W gives Queens IND locals 2 routes, with 2 fewer trains per hour over the current R/V configuration. This witn no 63rd St. connector.
This configuration would work best when both sets of tracks on the Manhattan bridge working, as some increase over current N service would be necesitated to prevent crowding on the Astoria line.
Yeah, Queens is slightly better served witha 63rd St. tunnel. But was the monumental cost worth the benefits? I think not.
rONINbAYSIDE:"And what if MTA simply replaced the W's with more N's? Net effect: you still have two lines feeding into the 60th
Street tube. So you haven't solved anything."
cHRIS"Perhaps I didn't make myself more clearer. Diverting another line like the W gives Queens IND locals 2 routes, with 2 fewer
trains per hour over the current R/V configuration. This witn no 63rd St. connector."
If you cancel the N from Astoria (or if Osama Bin Laden had done that for you), then your plan works. Otherwise it doesn't.
"This configuration would work best when both sets of tracks on the Manhattan bridge working, as some increase over current
N service would be necesitated to prevent crowding on the Astoria line."
Any configuration involving 6th Ave and Broadway service works better when the Manny B is in full operation. Bring it on!
As to your assertion about 63rd St service, your own posts prove you wrong!
If you cancel the N from Astoria (or if Osama Bin Laden had done that for you), then your plan works. Otherwise it doesn't
Sure it does. If you run the N, R and the "new" Queens IND local route at 6 minute headways, that would mean 30 TPH, something the 60th St. tube can handle (heck, it did in 1986-88).
"Sure it does. If you run the N, R and the "new" Queens IND local route at 6 minute headways, that would mean 30 TPH,
something the 60th St. tube can handle (heck, it did in 1986-88)."
That's just chicanery, and you know it. Well, if you run those trains, combined, at 15 minute headways, you can create two more new "trains." And if you put all those trains at 30 minute headways, you can allow railfans to walk through the tunnel in between trains to marvel at the graffitti on the walls. All without the 63rd Street connector.
But if you want to run the N and the R every five minutes, esp. during rush hour, as could happen when enough new subway cars show up, then your plan is toast. It's toast now, actually.
The MTA knows that, of course. Like I said, you just posted on this to amuse yourself. And me. :0)
In fact, I beleive that right now the line to Ditmars has about 12 trains per hour and they're actually getting reasonably filled up.
From 8-9 AM weekdays, 6 N trains and 7 W trains are scheduled to leave Ditmars Boulevard, for a total of 13.
David
10 trains to Astoria would be adequate.
As some people fail to see, the idea of running 2 60th St. routes on Queens Blvd. is not without it's drawbacks. But compared to spending billions of $$$ to build a new tunnel, it's much more cost effective.
30 TPH is possible through 60th St. The division of trains between Astoria & Forest Hills is negotiable. Even if it's 18/12, this still doubles the amount of Manhattan bound local service to Queens Blvd than the pre 12/17/01 R/G configuration. All without one dollar spent on infrastructure.
"10 trains to Astoria would be adequate."
For now, according to you. Even if we take your word for it (we don't) Astoria may need more in future; it's a place where people are looking to go for cheap rents and good digs. The presence of the N is a big plus.
"As some people fail to see, the idea of running 2 60th St. routes on Queens Blvd. is not without it's drawbacks. But
compared to spending billions of $$$ to build a new tunnel, it's much more cost effective."
The 63rd Street project of the '90s finished an unfinished project. Most of the tunnel was already there (and in use) and the LIRR tunnel needed to be extended anyway. Some of the money would have been spent on the LIRR project anyway. So it was cost effective either way. And the total cost of the entire project, including the LIRR tunnel, from the '60s until now, contrary to your badly misinformed post, was $1.5 billion, not multiple billions.
"30 TPH is possible through 60th St. The division of trains between Astoria & Forest Hills is negotiable. Even if it's 18/12, this
still doubles the amount of Manhattan bound local service to Queens Blvd than the pre 12/17/01 R/G configuration. All
without one dollar spent on infrastructure."
Even if your numbers are correct, the 63rd Street project allows major increases in service over and above your proposed services. Your proposed service levels are inadequate for current demand in Queens.
Nice fiction you write, though. I'm just glad you don't balance my checkbook...
The 63rd Street project of the '90s finished an unfinished project. Most of the tunnel was already there (and in use) and the LIRR tunnel needed to be extended anyway. Some of the money would have been spent on the LIRR project anyway. So it was cost effective either way. And the total cost of the entire project, including the LIRR tunnel, from the '60s until now, contrary to your badly misinformed post, was $1.5 billion, not multiple billions.
I believe the extension from 21 St Queensbridge to the Queens IND was more than $1.5 billion. Where'd you get that number?
Even if your numbers are correct, the 63rd Street project allows major increases in service over and above your proposed services. Your proposed service levels are inadequate for current demand in Queens.
Inadequate? It's a 20% increase in Manhattan bound service than pre V train service levels. I'd rather have this AND a 2nd Ave line, at least above 63rd. St. That would benefit more people in a more significant way.
The cost of the 63rd Street Connector project, which started in 1995 and included the extension of the LIRR tunnel, was $645 million. This is the actual budget spent on the project and was released by MTA.
The original 63rd Street extension to 21 St actually cost $898 million dollars. This information was published in the NY Times and other papers, and you can get it from the MTA as well, if you ask.
If you cancelled the Connector project (645 million) you would not have nearly the amount of money required to build a Second Avenue subway above 63rd Street. You would have enough money, however, to build an N extension to LGA, or perhaps to lengthen the F train in Queens by a mile and a couple of stops up Hillside Avenue.
That's the problem with your post - your post demonstrated an extreme misunderstanding of what things cost. Your reliance on existing tunnels to provide more service as opposed to finishing the Connector limits expansion options to a borough which actually needs more.
And no, your solution would not increase service 20%. It would reshuffle existing trains and maybe make them a little more convenient - but in the end we'd have to build that tunnel anyway.
That's the problem with your post - your post demonstrated an extreme misunderstanding of what things cost. Your reliance on existing tunnels to provide more service as opposed to finishing the Connector limits expansion options to a borough which actually needs more.
I did not support the idea of not "finishing" the 63rd. St connector. Once it was started in 1970, then the die was cast. I was trying to show why the entire project to begin with was a waste of money.
Reguardless of the final cost (and I still am not sure your numbers are accurate about final costs), the fact remains that Queens Blvd service to Manhattan could've been significantly increased without any 63rd. St tunnel.
If you don't believe my figures, check the NY Times archives, or write to the State or the MTA and ask for references to MTA's financial reporting and/or the Capital Plan accounting from the mid-1980's - it's right there.
And as far as the project itself goes - well, you're entitled to your opinion about it (I think it's nonsense, of course)and I'm glad you post it. Subtalk wouldn't be any fun without the jousting.
The Connector's $645 million was paid out of the 1995-99 Capital Plan. Again, a matter of public record. Do your homework.
The 63rd Street project of the '90s finished an unfinished project. Most of the tunnel was already there (and in use) and the LIRR tunnel needed to be extended anyway. Some of the money would have been spent on the LIRR project anyway. So it was cost effective either way. And the total cost of the entire project, including the LIRR tunnel, from the '60s until now, contrary to your badly misinformed post, was $1.5 billion, not multiple billions.
I believe the extension from 21 St Queensbridge to the Queens IND was more than $1.5 billion. Where'd you get that number?
Even if your numbers are correct, the 63rd Street project allows major increases in service over and above your proposed services. Your proposed service levels are inadequate for current demand in Queens.
Inadequate? It's a 20% increase in Manhattan bound service than pre V train service levels. I'd rather have this AND a 2nd Ave line, at least above 63rd. St. That would benefit more people in a more significant way.
See my reply to your other post. I know you wreote this one because you kept all the italics in the other one.
And Astoria would have under half the weekday service it has now. I've never commuted in rush hours from Astoria, but my impression from posts here is that it sees its fair share of crowds.
Now, you could argue that, while the 63rd Street connection does increase capacity where it's useful, it still wasn't worth the money. Without seeing all the numbers involved (dollar figures and ridership statistics), I'm afraid I can't offer an opinion on the matter. It's clear, however, that it wasn't an entire waste.
The original 63rd St plan always included a local connection option, and this, in fact was built. The bypass track was not, but nothing prevents MTA from adding it should there be sufficient demands and available money.
They even built the bellmouth for that service into the south tunnel wall just before that very complicated set of switches that connect 63rd Street line to Queens Blvd.
The lower/inner roadway, IINM, is Manhattan-bound in the morning rush and Brooklyn-bound at other times. Only two lanes are open. It is kind of odd that the reversible roadway is wider than the fixed-direction roadways; reverse-peak traffic really has a hard time.
I've toyed with the radical idea of flipping such reversible lanes around the city. The vast majority of traffic entering Manhattan in the morning and leaving Manhattan in the evening is made up of commuters, most of whom can use the subway. Traffic going the other way is more likely to be making unsubwayable trips. I'll stop right there before I incite a riot.
You're talking about several billions of dollars. It's not a feasible idea in the foreseeable future (but never say never).
>>>build a cantilever or arch
bridge in its place? <<<
I'd.like NYC to get one of the new cable stayed type bridges...
I'd.like NYC to get one of the new cable stayed type bridges...
Whatever NYC hypothetically gets, it should be distinctive and well built.
A better, yet more expensive plan would be to move the 4 subway tracks into tunnels parallel to the bridge. The bridge can then remain for automobile traffic only. Trains could speed between Canal/Grand & Dekalb.
I thought of the same exact thing, that's a good idea. Unfortunately the politics of city construction just doesn't allow for it to be built.
The only thing that might be built would be a two track line paralell to the bridge if it was part of a bi-level tunnel, with the other two tracks dedicated to extending the LIRR from Flatbush Ave. to downtown Manhattan. That would win the project support from voters and polticiians on Long Island as well as in the city, and give it more clout to get funding in Albany and Washington.
A two-track tunnel wouldn't be perfect, but the MTA and DOT could keep one track open on both sides of the bridge to balance it out (presumably the once closer to the center of the bridge), widen the pedestrian and bike paths on the outside of the bridge, and then connect both the Broadway and Sixth Ave. lines to the bridge and tunnel tracks. That way, during low use hours, the tunnel could be used exclusively, while during rush hours, both the bridge and tunnel tracks could be used between DeKalb and either Canal or Grand and you could get between 50-60 TPH across the East River.
A tunnel near the MB would be much too far north for the LIRR to use to get from its terminus on Atlantic Ave to the financial district in lower Manhattan.
A tunnel near the MB would be much too far north for the LIRR to use to get from its terminus on Atlantic Ave to the financial district in lower Manhattan.
True, although if we're hypothetically going to go to the expense of building new East River subway tunnels ... maybe the vicinity of the MB isn't the best place. Some reorganization downtown might not be a bad thing.
And certainly any new downtown subway tunnel SHOULD have a lower level for LIRR trains.
THIS should set the hypotheses a-flyin' ...!
No, in fact, if you look at the underground tunnel layout in downtown Brooklyn, turnning the LIRR tracks due north towards MetroTech and then running them towards the Manny B near the BQE makes the most sense, because of all the jumble of IRT, BMT and IND lines you would have to contend with trying to extend the tracks straight ahead on Altantic Ave. towards Manhattan (just the IRT and BMT tracks alone next to the terminal would require lowering the current LIRR station at least 35 feet below it's present level just to get across Flatbush and Fourth Avenues). Running it due north at its current location, one level below the street, would get it away from that problem, and IIRC, it could fit above the IND Fulton Street (A, C) and Lafayette Ave. (G) lines.
An LIRR tunnel going across at the Manny B would come into Manhattan east of the downtown area, but that line, coming into the borough around Pike Street, could be turned west on Madison Street and then back south on Pearl past the Brooklyn Bridge to a terminal around Water Street. Meanwhile, the other tunnel tube for the subway lines could be hooked into two of the four tracks coming out of DeKalb, while the other two remain connected to the bridge, and a flying junction could be built at Canal and Chrystie to hook both the existing bridge and new tunnel tracks into both the IND Sixth Ave. and BMT Broadway lines.
That makes sense. Now all that's needed is $$$.
Ah,$$$ -- the age-old problem (well, at least the 60-year-old problem) of New York City mass transit projects. But like I said, if you piggy back a two track subway tunnel with an LIRR extension into lower Manhattan, at least you get the Long Island reps on your side in Albany and down in D.C.
Not a bad idea.
You're idea is absolutely solid! I only wish that the MTA would take up your project.
James:
The Manny B is high up off the East River, so a cantilever bridge is pretty much out of the question.
As far as moving the tracks, that would require building a whole new bridge. Doing so would involve loss of property, as new approach ramps for vehicles would be needed.
Ultimately, the only practical choice for the Manny B (and the Willy B) was to re-build them both right in place. Essentially, that's what has been happening for the past 20 years.
Visit NYC, you'll see what I mean as to why the bridges couldn't easily be re-located and/or completely closed so as to permit more efficient rehabilitation.
The Manny B is high up off the East River, so a cantilever bridge is pretty much out of the question.
How about an arch then?
I accept that if compulsorary purchase of property were necessitated, it would become pretty much unviable.
Temporary disruption caused by construction (such as big traffic jams) is a fact of life. There's been a long history of closing bridges in other large cities, notably London, including when Irish terrorists tried to blow one up.
I can appreciate, however that shipping must not be impeded by any bridge.
If I were you, I'd sue the City of NY, the DOT and the TA for damages because you now have trouble getting to school and your education is being impacted. Use your post as "Exhibit A" and you'll win - even with me on the jury.
Ouch...LMAO
I was going to say he needs all the school he could get, but you beat me to it. :)
-Hank
PS-If I ever meet you, beer is on me ;)
Then I'll buy lunch
Ave X pizza....cheap, greasy and TA approved for car inspectors. Peter
If he's buying Not just Chicken!
Hehe :)
Thanks Dude!
That's a good one!
Arti
I have absolutley no sympathy for you. That's the way it is because of the Manny B service changes. You were spoiled because it used to be 3 services one behind the other, now it can't be done that way because of the single track operation. If you want to keep perfect attendance, get your butt out of bed earlier! Aren't you riding for free thanks to your school pass a good portion of the time anyway?
>>Aren't you riding for free thanks to your school pass a good portion of the time anyway? <<
Yes - I recall something about a gift horse, and looking at its mouth...
Its time to get rid of the stupid Grand Street Shuttle
Because no service is far better than 12 minute headways.
Because it Stands for "Stupid So-called Slowpoke Shuttle train."
Right; if it were before 1985, it would be called the SSSS.
And I don't understand why TA didn't extended B D service to Grand street.
And you've been reading this board for how long?
I will not received a prefect attendants awards for this year.
Don't worry; you're probably still in the running for the prefect grammer awards.
i agree. lets get rid of that shuttle so you can walk the whole way and be REALLY late. =)
If I was you, instead of attendance, I'd worry about your language skills. BTW, I have a suggestion, use the time you wait for the shuttle to read a book, probably it'll do you more good than your school.
Arti
At least you have a good excuse for not having a perfect attendance record for this year. The god damn freaking Grand Street Shuttle. In my own humble opinion it is one of the stupidest moves that the T/A could have made. Why couldn't they at least make it a local train up to perhaps 57th St. so there is at least one more 6th Ave. local for the time being.
#3 West End Jeff
Why would 14th St and 23rd St need a 33% service increase? How could this shuttle turn around at 57th St? Given the infrastucture near Grand and car availability, do you have a better idea?
Remember that 57th St. on the 6th Ave. Line had a place to turn trains around? If not they could run the trains through the 63rd St. tnnel if need be.
#3 West End Jeff
This entire complex is being used by the F. You cannot turn trains here and run the F through it as well.
Except at middle-of-the-night headways, it's impractical to turn trains on the same tracks that other trains use for through service. Since the F runs through both 57/6 and 21-QB, neither of those stations can be used as terminals.
Whenever you think the TA has done something really dumb in terms of routes, take a look at the track maps posted on this site. 99% of the time it's then obvious why they had to do things the way they did. You need space and time to turn trains around, unfortunately.
And it is expensive to rebuild lines with new crossover switches, as the 63rd Street Connector project demonstrated.
And it is expensive to rebuild lines with new crossover switches, as the 63rd Street Connector project demonstrated.
And even more so to do it properly with flyovers and flyunders, which the 63rd Street Connector also had.
How much would a switch just beyond Grand St actually cost?
I'm not familiar with the tunnel layout. If they have to carve a large hole in a tunnel septum, or otherwise redo the tunnel geometry, then the price increases steeply.
Does anybody know what that tunnel looks like?
That's what they did in the late 80's the last time 6 Ave was closed to MB. But remember, the 63rd St connection line was not open yet, and 57 was used as a Terminal. By the way what line terminated at 57 even before all the MB stuff started in the late 80's?
The B terminated there outside of rush hours. The K from Brooklyn in rush hours.
According to the 1979 map, there were two daytime B's, one circle and one diamond. The circle ran between 57/6 and Stillwell, local in Manhattan except southbound in the afternoon rush(!). The diamond ran, rush hours only, between 168 and Stillwell, express on 6th. There were also two overnight shuttles, one in Brooklyn and one between 57/6 and 47-50.
By that time, the 6th Avenue K had been cancelled for good. The late 80's K was the replacement for the AA; it ran on 8th Avenue.
I remember the blue K on 8th. Where did it run between?
The blue K was basically what the off-hour version of the C was....168th to WTC local. The K designation replaced AA when the MTA dropped the double letter route names for locals. It didn't really make a lot of sense in that the K name was associated with the BMT-6th Ave. service, but it was available when they needed to rename the AA. Indeed, when the K was eliminated (in 1987 i believe), it was "replaced" by the C when its service expanded beyond rush hour.
What other points could you extend the Grand St. Shuttle besides 57th Street.
#3 West End Jeff
No I mean what train used to run to 57th before the tunnel opened. 57 was a terminal before that.
From it's opening in 1968 to 1976, the KK terminated there during rush hours, and the B train did all other times, except at night when a shuttle to Rockefeller Center operated (called the "homeless express
', cuz nobody used it but them). From 1976 to 1986, it was always the B, which ran alternate trains to 57th St & 168th St during rush hours (like the A to lefferts/Far Rock). After the first north side closure, the shuttle to Grand St. operated 24/7. In May 1987, the shuttle was cut back to W4th St at night, and the F was rerouted to 57th St during the night (after the N/R terminal switch). In December 1988, Q operated to 57th St weekdays, the B operated there on weekends, and the JFK express operated there weeknights from 9 PM to midnight. F serviced 57th St at night. The openeing of 63rd. St in October 1989 extended all these various lines to Queensbridge.
I thought it was perfect "attendance" instead of attendants...anyway, I just wanna see the tunnels build instead of trains going over the Willy B and slowly fatiguing it. One can only dream!
I'm sure you mean "Manny Bridge".
Hey, I feel your pain. I have one question: Why did the MTA NOT construct a crossover just north of Grand Street? I'm having great difficulty understanding this. If it's there, then both the B and D could terminate at Grand Street and passengers at Grand would have legitimate subway service. Instead they have the mighty shuttle to deal with.
I've just read the other posts, sorry for asking a question that's already been answered. Whenever money becomes an issue, construction seems to lag.
Well, Q Exp. Its not the pain I'm experiencing, I'm Very frustrating with this Grand Shuttle that alway taking so looooonnnnnnnng to depart from a station to run the back and forth.
Hey man, hang in there for two more years (hopefully). Thanks in part to the community around Grand Street (who were highly upset when the North Side of the MB closed), I figure that the DOT will actually finish repairing the North Side in 2 years, as opposed to 11 on the South Side.
Thanks in part to the community around Grand Street (who were highly upset when the North Side of the MB closed), I figure that the DOT will actually finish repairing the North Side in 2 years, as opposed to 11 on the South Side.
I suspect it's less community pressure and more that they actually now know how bad it is underneath, what kind of conditions they'll uncover, how to do the work and what kind of structural retrofits are truly required.
Think about how long the first track took to replace on the Harlem Metro North trestle. The second one was quicker, and numbers 3 and 4 went by in a flash.
If the the TA were able to run the shutte from Grand Street Station to 57 Street-6th AVE back in early 80s. Then I Don't understand Why the TA Can't they run B and D to Grand Street.
You miss the point. Where are those Bs and Ds supposed to turn when there are no switches at Grand St?
In the 80s, the shuttles were single tracked from Grand to Bway-Lafayette, and had to run on a certain headway. I can't see them trying to squeeze Bs and Ds in here without tying the lines up.
-Stef
"If the the TA were able to run the shutte from Grand Street Station to 57 Street-6th AVE back in early 80s. Then I Don't understand Why the TA Can't they run B and D to Grand Street."
To do this, and maintain the current level of B/D service, the TA would have to install a diamond X-over north of Grand St. The cost of this plus the associated signals and controls would be excessive considering the length of time it would be required, the number of people using the service and the utility derived.
Clearly, the difference in service between extending the B & D to Grand St. and the current shuttle service is just a few minutes. From a business standpoint and common sense, it would make more sense for those utilizing the service to add an additional 15 minutes to their commute.
Let me bring up a different question - pure curiosity since it's moot now anyway.
Why didn't they run the 6th Ave Shuttle to 2nd Ave from June through December so that the Grand St shuttle could have gone to W 4th all along? That is, why did they have to terminate the 6th Ave shuttle at Bway-Lafayette?
I'd be guessing but I suppose the simple answer was that the TA was simultaneously building the new terminal at 2nd Ave. They were doing track work as well as significant structural changes to the station. This must have, in part, contributed to the decision.
That makes sense. I didn't realize they had to upgrade 2nd Ave to allow trains to turn around there in quantity. After all, it's not like 2nd Ave hasn't been a major terminal station in the past.
For one thing, barrier walls were put up at the south end of the express tracks at Second Avenue some years ago to keep the homeless out. Those had to be removed.
David
When? Last year, in preparation for a three-year service change?
The MTA should have done this a while ago when they closed the North Side from 1987-89. That way, any repairs necessary for the North Side in the future wouldn't mean the creation of ExpressM's favorite train, the Grand Street Shuttle.
So how much money should the TA have spent so a neighborhood with a greater number and variety of subway stations than any other I can think of could avoid having shuttle service at one of those stations for a period of three years?
Really -- between the J/M/N/R/Q/Q/W/Z/6 at Canal, the J/M/Z at the Bowery, and the F at East Broadway, Chinatown has a vast supply of subway service even without Grand. Grand is eight minutes (in moderately heavy pedestrian traffic) from Canal or two short blocks from the Bowery. It's not like the neighborhood's been cut off.
Chinatown has a vast supply of subway service even without Grand. Grand is eight minutes (in moderately heavy pedestrian traffic) from Canal or two short blocks from the Bowery. It's not like the neighborhood's been cut off.
It's not subway service in general that's the problem. It's that there is an even larger Chinese community just the other side of the East River and the closure of the S side of the MB severed what had been effectively a shuttle between the two.
The reason the community screamed so loudly to get the shuttle extended to W 4th is so they didn't have to change TWICE to get onto the rerouted trains that take them there.
The reason the community screamed so loudly to get the shuttle extended to W 4th is so they didn't have to change TWICE to get onto the rerouted trains that take them there.
Hang on a bit... I thought the re-routed trains over the Manny B ended up on the Broadway Line - Connection with the S at Broadway LaFayette, not West 4th.
If you're at Grand St and want to get somewhere in the subway system, what do you do (other than walk to another nearby station, which is the obvious answer for most people)?
Before December 16, you could only take the shuttle to Bway-Lafayette, where your only choices were the F and the 6th Ave shuttle.
Now at least you can also take the shuttle to W 4th St, where you have the A, C, and E as well as the F and V.
It's an improvement, though how many people it actually benefits is unclear.
If you're at Grand St and want to get somewhere in the subway system, what do you do (other than walk to another nearby station, which is the obvious answer for most people)?
It's the obvious answer for just about everyone. The Grand and Bowery stations are closer than, e.g., 42/7 and 42/8.
If you're at 91st and 5th or at 31st and 1st or at 37th and 11th and you want to get somewhere in the subway system, what do you do? One thing's for sure: you're a lot worse off than those folks at Grand would be even if their shuttle stopped running and the entire J/M/Z line shut down.
Hang on a bit... I thought the re-routed trains over the Manny B ended up on the Broadway Line - Connection with the S at Broadway LaFayette, not West 4th.
Hmmmmm. I think you may be right, though for a reason different to what you specified. Bway/Lafayette connects the IRT 6 train (downtown only) to the Houston Street INDs F and V (for 1 stop). To get to the Broadway BMT that carries the Q and W, you need to go to Herald Square.
I guess extending to W 4th gave a lot more flexibility to get into anything in the IND system. Ideally the shuttle should go to 34th where you CAN get the Broadway line.
(FYI, in NYC Lafayette has no cap-F ... dunno why, it should, but it doesn't.)
The community also screamed about getting more hours of service to the M line, yet the community does not use it and the TA runs empty trains.
It's not subway service in general that's the problem. It's that there is an even larger Chinese community just the other side of the East River and the closure of the S side of the MB severed what had been effectively a shuttle between the two.
No it didn't -- it just moved the Manhattan end of the shuttle from one point in Chinatown (Grand) to a different point in Chinatown (Canal) eight minutes away. Overall service from Chinatown to Brooklyn is better now, with the M providing an additional option very close to Grand.
The reason the community screamed so loudly to get the shuttle extended to W 4th is so they didn't have to change TWICE to get onto the rerouted trains that take them there.
The only people who had to change twice are those who lived directly at Grand and refused to walk even two blocks to the J/M/Z (which would necessitate at worst a single transfer, at Canal, DeKalb, or Pacific).
The shuttle extension is useful for reaching other IND lines but it doesn't change a thing for BMT connections.
Does anyone use the shuttle to get from Chinatown to the Brooklyn BMT? I doubt it. It's more useful to get uptown and to connect to the Brooklyn IND lines.
In my opinion, the MTA should spend a little more money on places where people ride the trains. Grand Street used to be a very busy station before the North Side closed. Those around Grand generally do not use Bowery partially because the J, M, and Z trains are perceived to be slow trains and partially because a good number who commute to/from Grand come from the old BMT Southern Division (Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, 4th Ave etc...). Also, we must remember that Grand Street Station sits in the middle of an area where there are many small businesses. The E. Broadway station in comparison is only on the border of Chinatown. Canal Street is a good walk from Grand Street. By cutting the North Side of the MB, these businesses must now rely on an infrequent shuttle train, or shuttle busses (which tends to get tied up in traffic) to get their employees to work. A crossover switch north of Grand would have definitely helped here.
I agree. But with the Manhattan bridge rehab in it's closing stages, the expense isn't justified. Had they know it would last almost 20 years back in 1986, this switch should have been built then.
What if 20 years down the line the MB needs another paint job, or if something else goes wrong with it? Yeah, the switch would be expensive, but in the long run it would help those around Grand avoid future shuttle adventures.
They did not build one during the lasttime that the north side of the bridge was closed, so I do not figure on them building one now, unless the idea hit them like a bolt from the blue.
In my opinion, the MTA should spend a little more money on places where people ride the trains. Grand Street used to be a very busy station before the North Side closed.
Only because trains from Grand ran directly to Brooklyn. Now Canal fills that role, and Canal is the very busy station that Grand used to be.
Those around Grand generally do not use Bowery partially because the J, M, and Z trains are perceived to be slow trains and partially because a good number who commute to/from Grand come from the old BMT Southern Division (Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, 4th Ave etc...).
The M takes about 15 minutes to get from the Bowery to Pacific. The W takes 11 from Canal. Once again, perception is the enemy. And, besides, how could any possible improved Grand Street service, even if it ran every 30 seconds, get passengers to the BMT and over to Pacific in less than 15 minutes? Those going to the Southern Division either use the M from the Bowery or walk over to Canal. Anything running out of Grand goes the wrong way, and nothing will change that until the DOT finishes its bridge work.
Also, we must remember that Grand Street Station sits in the middle of an area where there are many small businesses.
So does Canal. So does the Bowery (which is two blocks from Canal).
The E. Broadway station in comparison is only on the border of Chinatown. Canal Street is a good walk from Grand Street.
Eight minutes on a moderately busy Sunday afternoon. I timed it last summer. It's less, obviously, for those who live or work between the two stations. And for those who prefer not to walk, the J/M/Z two blocks away is the best way to Canal -- not a shuttle that runs north from Grand, and (except late at night) not a shuttle bus that gets stuck in traffic. The transfer at Canal is easy in both directions now that the direct NB staircases are open.
By cutting the North Side of the MB, these businesses must now rely on an infrequent shuttle train, or shuttle busses (which tends to get tied up in traffic) to get their employees to work.
The ones going north use the shuttle. The ones going south walk to the Bowery or Canal.
A crossover switch north of Grand would have definitely helped here.
It would have helped, slightly, those bound for midtown Manhattan and Queens. It wouldn't have done a thing for those bound for Brooklyn.
Still planiing to be in school in 2004???
Perhaps a little longer with that wonderful grammar of yours.......where's the red pen????
One other thing ..... get up earlier
And ever since the that "S"tupid "S"huttle settle in. I've been late to school at least 6 time which I no long have prefer attendants. Thanks to the "so called" "S"tupid Shuttle I will not received a prefect attendants awards for this year.
Sorry for your story. Is the Grand St. shuttle the only way to get to school?
Boy, I can't wait til 2004. By them I hoped the TA will completely destroyed that shuttle for good. Now why TA named Grand Street Shuttles as an "S" train. Because it Stands for "Stupid So-called Slowpoke Shuttle train." Even the 42nd street shuttle are fastered than that stupid train. And I don't understand why TA didn't extended B D service to Grand street. I sured it will make commuter who uses 6th Ave line an easier way.
Do you believe now that monkeys can better operate on the Subway than the T/A? (It's a joke)
Enron's bookkeeper lives -- in New York City and State. More debt, all off balance sheet. You know how that ended up at Enron, and in Nassau County.
Some of the solution's proposed for the City -- lag payroll (a loan from employees), holding bills (a loan from suppliers), "refinancing." All these mean more spending with no services later on. Next thing you know, they'll be doing the Lindsay thing -- paying for a month of this years spending with next year's taxes. Then two months.
Not at the TA, please. The capital plan borrowing is bad enough already. I think the fare should be raised in proportion to the TWU contract, with any excess due to productivity gains poured back into the system.
To encourage people to travel off peak, I'd raise the fare during rush hours only -- to $2.00 for a start. That would be $1.81 with the 11 for 10 bonus, up from $1.37 now. In the afternoon, peak hour fares would only apply to those boarding in the center of town -- Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, Long Island City, the Hub -- not for those coming in on empty trains.
Assuming 40 peak hour work trips per month, peak hour travel now accounts for $54.80 of the $63.00 monthly card. So raise it to $80 -- keeping the remaining charge for off-peak the same.
All of these tax cuts and fare freezes are being paid for with debt, at the federal, state and local level. Some of the debt is hidden, off the books. We'll all be better off just facing up to things.
Of course, coming from me, a person who does not pay for subway service, that's easy to say but I agree that the fares should be raised. I think instead of giving unlimited discounts, it's time that the fare structure be more responsive to the needs of the service.
For example:
Eliminate the unlimited ride cards & impliment a fare structure that charges:
Full fare for peak travel periods (not necessarilly maintaining the $1.50 fare).
Full fare anytime for people not using metrocards.
A small discount for mid-day off-peak service.
Another larger discount for evening and night service.
Eliminate the unlimited ride cards & impliment a fare structure that charges:
That goes for employees too, right? :-)
The first necessity should be to get some reliable data on how each type of fare payment is used. Next, how has the unlimited fare changed riding habits? Are these changes desirable?
There are some federal tax breaks for the unlimited cards. Should the TA forego this fare subsidy for it passengers?
"That goes for employees too, right? :-)"
Absolutely not. From the moment I board the train in the AM until I get off at night,I'm working.
So am I. Even on non work days. When I ride for free, I am another crew member. While I do not interfere with the operation of the train, I recently assisted a crew of rookies on the E on a Saturday nite who had PA problems and a loss of t/o indication. Just last week, I was on an R46 V train with a panel which somehow opened and was hitting the customers which I was happy to lock up.
Amen, Another dedicated transit worker... I carry my RTO radio, keys, reverser and cheater handle with me. I also have LIRR keys and a plug for their vent valves (incase the conductor doesn't).
I almost always carry my keys; when travelling by myself I shove a vest and radio in my bag.
Me too!!!! Gloves, vest, extra helmet, charged phone, keys, speed brake/cutter and reverser, tools and flashlights. Seperates the men from the bois. When I started, the crew called me 'Inspector Gadget' and I was upset...it's now a term of endearment. CI Peter
All city workers should get a pass as part of their pay. And take away those damn parking spaces!
The Federal Reserve reimburses transit commutation for my wife.
I don't have a parking space except for what I can search out for here on the upper East Side of Manhattan. My car is laid up and the problems getting to my yard on the subways are MANY!!!! Every governmental employee should have benefits to enable them to provide emergency services WHICH they should be taught and required to provide. Many TA employees hide in the corners of the subway cars so as not to be noticed: I ride nearby the T/O or C/R and they notice me...I don't announce myself. One T/O opened the door for me upon hearing the unique CI/RCI key jingle.....told him I'm off duty and there for the ride home. Just knowing I posses necessary emergency skills is a really, really good feeling, especially on MY trainsets. CI Peter
I too consider msyelf on duty anytime I am on the system or any railroad. I have assisted NJT crews with station overruns when doors opened to air instead of platform.
To the poster who wants our pass canceled- do you have free parking at work? I think we should abolish free parking. Discouint cafetrias? Close the cafeteria.
The pass was granted in lieu fo a previous pay raise. I am a lunch
relief and have 10 stops on my new schedule. Why should I have to pay 12 fares (1 to enter the sytem and to go home and 10 to go from station to station.)?
I'll go a step further. last weekend i went into the city with a friend for the motorcycle show at the Javits Center. We rode the subway for free. We rode the M34 bus for free. Free transit is a job bebifit. Get over it or get a job with transit.
The cops get to ride free off duty also even if they have nothing to do with transit.
The cops get to ride free off duty also even if they have nothing to do with transit.
That's done for safety reasons. It's not a job perk.
Agreed. Every civil servant who does perform emergency services not only should have access to the subways for free but also be trained, tested and retested to improve and assess their skills. If you're there with the skills and tools...you must serve. Just quietly shirk away from nasty passengers. CI Peter
Yes, until a few years ago they were required to keep their guns with them too.
A friend of mine refused to on the sneak. Having drunk cops with guns was one of the stupidest things that was sanction by the rules.
And yes it is a job perk now that they don't have to carry weapons. I love my friend like a brother but without the cop belt he is only another fat white guy on the train.
Absolutely not. From the moment I board the train in the AM until I get off at night,I'm working.
Really? Is your commuting time part of your weekly hours? How does this impact your supervisory functions? What about the TA's hourly employees? Do their 35 or 40 hours start with their Metrocard swipe at their home station?
Let's keep the apples and oranges seperate. People are different. I carry a radio and tools with me. If there is an emergency or if i see someting that needs to be addressed, I don't look at my watch and say, well I'm off duty so screw it. There may be others who will say that. The fact is I'm salaried annually and the number of hours I work is irrelavent (if I work more). My work hours are adjustable too. As an hourly employee, a supervisor and now as a manager I've always done the same thing. I happen to care, as corny as that may sound.
Hourly employees (and supervisors) are a different situation. Their day begins and end at their reporting location and not when they swipe into the system. If they respond to an emergency situation while in transit, they are entitled to be put on the clock and be paid for their time.
People are different. I carry a radio and tools with me. If there is an emergency or if i see someting that needs to be addressed, I don't look at my watch and say, well I'm off duty so screw it.
I'm not questioning your dedication. What I'm trying to reconcile is why a transit employee should be entitled to free transportation to his primary place of employment while the rest of us should have to declare such a perq as income on our 1040's.
Most employees get perks of one form or another. Would you dispute the fact that subsidized employee cafaterias are perks. Should they be taxed? Should employee discounts at retail establishments be taxed?
Most employees get perks of one form or another. Would you dispute the fact that subsidized employee cafaterias are perks. Should they be taxed? Should employee discounts at retail establishments be taxed?
I would say that all of these are perquisites and that they should be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income. The only exception, under the law, would be that accepting the perq were a condition for continued employment. Thus, are you required to take the subway and other forms of public transit to your primary job location; are you required to eat company supplied food at the company cafeteria and are you required to buy at the company store?
Im school car we were told the MTA preferred us to take it to work.
>>> I would say that all of these are perquisites and that they should be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income. The only exception, under the law, would be that accepting the perq were a condition for continued employment. <<<
That is the wrong exception. The test is if the perq provides a benefit to the employer rather than if it is a condition of employment. An example is the use of a company owned vehicle. A company may offer employees who travel on company business the choice of driving a company owned vehicle (with a low reimbursement for personal use) or being paid milage for the use of their personal vehicle on company business.
Tom
In my case the vehices primary use was for investigative purposes. I was a salaried worker who was always on duty via a beeper. I had to take the car hoem with me whether it was needed or not due to the fact that thier were no overnight parking spots in lower manhattan for the vehicle overnight.
The tax law states that an employedd is responciple for paying for his/her transoportation to and from his/her primary place of business.
In the case of a CPA who occasionaly needs to travel to client sites. The employes may only deduct the cost of travel in excess of miles from his/her primary play of business
For example the cpa lives 10 miles from her office
on tuesday she need to go to client 15 miles from home.
She can only expense 5 miles as a business expense against her taxes.
In the case of the TA employess who reports to the same token boothe every day to work. That is concidered his/her primary place of business thus taxable.
The TA employee should be taxes the cost of $3(or cost to get to work) * number of days worked. The additioal unlimited rides would be the perk.
Thier may be an exception granted specifically to transportation workers that I may be unaware of.
>>> The tax law states that an employedd is responciple for paying for his/her transoportation to and from his/her primary place of business. <<<
I do not have a tax code handy, but my memory of that section referred to automobile expense of commuting to work. Specifically that automobile business milage is deductible, but commuting milage is not. I am not sure that is true if the employer provides another form of transportation. Examples: farm workers being picked up in town and transported on private buses to fields; off shore oil drillers being transferred from shore to an oil rig by helicopter or boat; airlines flying crews from home to a distant city to begin work; TV & movie studios sending a limousine to transport stars to the studio; a parent driving a babysitter home after an evening of babysitting.
Tom
(I would say that all of these are perquisites and that they should be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income. The only exception, under the law, would be that accepting the perq were a condition for continued employment.)
Most employees get untaxed free parking. For equity purposes, the federal tax code now permits employers to reimburse mass transit at up to $100 per month.
The TA has chosen to do so for its employees by providing a pass which is also used for travel on offical business. Since most transit facilities are on the fringe of the city rather than in the center, most transit workers drive to work. They are more likely to use the pass on business than in commutation.
Prior to joining the TA, my beef was the free on-street parking the City of New York reserved for bureaucrats and members of certain unions. While providing free parking, the City refused to particpate in the Transit Chek program. Only recently did the City allow its employees to purchase transit with pre-tax dollars, as allowed by law. The City itself continues to contribute nothing.
Stop weaseling and come up to 239th!!! It's a God Graced miracle...no alternate side of the street parking. Just got my official TA parking permit and I can still park on the street without being a member of certain unions. Lost the use of my car for more than a week.......the Lord does truly bring us chumps down to the ground when we have to ride our trainsets to work. CI Peter
Very tempting. Could I safely leave my car unattended for a week or two at a time?
Probably not. But you could do it in most parts of Staten Island, where there is no alternate side of the street parking.
NO. You have to be very choosy about the spot. A CI had his car hit TWICE directly in front of the yard door. Car is totalled. I could not deal with another week plus on MY subway cars. BUT if you did find a spot in between and left the vehicle unlocked....at least you would not receive a DOT ticket. CI Peter
At least they were not at ENY. Center overhang got someones car.
Maybe you could just get a permit to equip your car with rail wheels and hang it off the end of your subway train...then when your shift ends and your train is back in the yard, unhook your car and drive home.
:0)
I am a loyal energy efficient employee of the TA. My car is equipped with all kinds of emergency management equipment that can provide power and worldwide communications. It also has a human powered scooter which has been clocked at 35 mph on Lexington Avenue (as fast as one of my trainsets.) CI Peter
Prior to joining the TA, my beef was the free on-street parking the City of New York reserved for bureaucrats and members of certain unions. While providing free parking, the City refused to particpate in the Transit Chek program. Only recently did the City allow its employees to purchase transit with pre-tax dollars, as allowed by law. The City itself continues to contribute nothing.
You can be assured that the value of the on-street parking is often well in excess of the $100 monthly limit on Transit Chek. Not to mention the fact that the employees who get it are probably well-paid to begin with, hence least in need of such valuable perks.
They have to pay taxes on it
Most employees get untaxed free parking. For equity purposes, the federal tax code now permits employers to reimburse mass transit at up to $100 per month.
The TA has chosen to do so for its employees by providing a pass which is also used for travel on offical business.
What steps does the TA take to make sure that such passes are used solely for company business and 1 round trip per day to a person's primary place of employment?
When my daughter worked for Lowes, she was able to see movies for free.
My wife works in retail and gets an employee discount.
My brother gets to keep the frequent flyer miles he accumulated when flying on business.
My neighbor gets free cakes from Entiman's
My other neighbor (a travel agent) gets free travel junkets.
There is no stipulation that my pass be used only for business purposes. Are you against all company perks or is it just this one that bothers you?
There is no stipulation that my pass be used only for business purposes.
Might I infer that to mean there are times when you use your unlimited pass without carrying your tradesman's tools? If so, do you think you should declare such use as income?
Are you against all company perks
No, I think that all income (monetary and otherwise) should be reported as income for tax purposes. The full cost of these perquisites has in all likelihood been deducted as a business expense on the corporate income tax form.
is it just this one that bothers you?
What bothers me is that a person who receives an unlimited fare card for free should object to somebody else being able to purchase one.
I think your fare abuse reasoning is a canard. You offer no statistics as to the unlimited card's overall use. You also denied any culpability when it is suggested that you might have participated in the same abuses that you cited.
"You also denied any culpability when it is suggested that you might have participated in the same abuses that you cited. "
The abuses that I alluded to involves two or more people using the same unlimited fare metro-card at different times of the day. This can and does happen. I know of one person who states that he and his significant other do exactly that. On the other hand, I can assure you that no one has ever used my pass but yours truly. When my wife and I go into the city for an evening out, we pay her fare. Aside from the pettiness of doing otherwise - to do so would be contrary to the rules for use of my pass. In addition, the usage of my pass can be tracked. Some employees have given their pass to family members to use while they are at work and have paid dearly for that error of judgement. All that aside, if you are suggesting that I have in the past or do misuse my transportation priviliges, I take extreme exception to it.
Some employees have given their pass to family members to use while they are at work and have paid dearly for that error of judgement.
Seriously? TA employees have been disciplined for misuse of their unlimited passes? REALLY?
I'm impressed. As a *fare-paying* passenger, I like hearing that. A lot.
Our TA pass is not considered an "unlimited" pass. It is solely for the use of the employee, and nobody else. Using an employee pass for another persons benefit is considered a theft of service and normally results in termination of the employee.
Passes are also color coded for male/female. Lend it to your wife/girlfriend and your employment is cooked. CI Peter
Of course, gay couples would have a slight advantage there...
>>> gay couples would have a slight advantage there <<<
But it is patently unfair to transvestite employees. :-)
Tom
That is a problem already. I don't know how they handle it.
Safety is paramount. TA is an equal opportunity employer, male, female, other. Federal law does not recognise 'other.' Disciniplary action is limited....exhibitionism that does not affect RTO or CED safety warrants a transfer to another facility for another chance. Just put up the blinds in the transverse cab.
THey are not showing their stuff it;'s just that they are genetically male and likely have a red pass even if they wear a dress.
And what bathroom or locker do they share??? Isn't this a lot of fun?
One is a TD where there is one bathroom and the other is a C/R who may not have gotten caught. VERY passible, even hot looking but, I always count ribs, I used to work in the West Village.
i don't think these 'guys' would last long in inspection around high voltage and bugs. A CI observed being happy in a transverse cab was wisked away to a more happy place. I guess I have to count my Blessings. CI Peter
Heh. Cardinal rule of dating in NYC, always check the beaver for a kickstand. :)
I always count ribs, I used to work in the West Village.
Whaaaaaa ... ??? You tellin' me men and women have different numbers of RIBS?
No problem. Since "he" is now a "she" and has a new female first name, then the pass is changed to show the new name, and the color of the pass is changed as well. PS: nobody ask me who I am taking about or ask for hints as to the job title that employee works as. No matter what your or my feelings are about it, this person deserves a level of respect and not be the subject of ridicule.
Hope he/she is not my dream of a wimmen car inspector. Problem with portions. CI Peter
>>> Since "he" is now a "she" and has a new female first name, then the pass is changed to show the new name, and the color of the pass is changed as well. <<<
You are talking about a transsexual rather than a transvestite. A transvestite enjoys cross dressing, but may be a heterosexual person having normal relations with the opposite sex, possibly married, who does not want a sex change operation, and does not cross dress on the job. The problem arises if, while the person is off duty, it is reported that a woman was using a male employee's pass, when in fact it was the male employee himself in drag.
Tom
Verrrry interesting. A new pass would only be issued after a very thorough TA medical examination. CIs have a name for the operation that occurs when a cross occurs between a bug and a battery cart: weinerectomy.
That person is one of the kindest people down here. When she gives you a strange move she will explain the how and the why.
She also makes moves that save time and convenience in the long run.
It is amazing how everyone either loves her for her professionalism or does not usually because of her lifestyle choice. When I worked with her there was a C/R that should have been written up for the crude comments he made but she showed a lot of class about the whole thing.
ABSOLUTELY ... and none of anybody's business either. If you do the job, that's all that should matter.
TA is an equal opportunity employer. AC/DC motor tech
>>>>>>>>>The abuses that I alluded to involves two or more people using the same unlimited fare metro-card at different times of the day. This can and does happen. I know of one person who states that he and his significant other do exactly that
The TA does state that an unlimited MetroCard is transferable. So while it may seem like an abuse, it is perfectly legal unlike monthly/weekly LIRR and Metro-North passes which are not transferable. I do use my wife's unlimited pass at times, though it's only used on Queens Surface/Green Bus, and usually on the weekends when my wife doesn't need the MetroCard to go to work.
>>>>>>>>Some employees have given their pass to family members to use while they are at work and have paid dearly for that error of judgement.
I know two FORMER employees who were terminated for this offense. Using your employee pass for another person is the same as backing up your train. If you get caught, it's all over.
The TA does state that an unlimited MetroCard is transferable. So while it may seem like an abuse, it is perfectly legal unlike monthly/weekly LIRR and Metro-North passes which are not transferable.
Even worse (more inconsistent) is the MTA's policy on commuter RR 10-Trip tickets. Metro North (more progressive, better RR) lets me hand over the ticket for me and a friend, and the conductor will clip two fares out of it. (Policy in place for maybe 3 years now?)
LIRR, otoh, very explicitly does NOT allow this. I probably press the point more than I should, but one conductor not only disallowed it but charged my friend the upgrade for buying a ticket on the train.
This kind of idiocy is why people get pissed at the MTA. If they want it to be an integrated system, try to rationalize the policies, damnit!
Boston's MBTA specifically says that more than one person may use a 12-trip ticket... just punch the number of fares required. This makes perfect sense; it makes it easier for the rider and the conductor too. (12-trip tickets are sold at the price of ten trips.)
If you as a TA employee travail upon the subway outside of work travel and you carry some basic tools, you are providing good works that our city desperatly needs. I can provide far more expertise on new tech than RCIs can....well beyond starting a fire with two sticks. CI Peter
"You also denied any culpability when it is suggested that you might have participated in the same abuses that you cited."
All that aside, if you are suggesting that I have in the past or do misuse my transportation priviliges, I take extreme exception to it.
I used the past subjunctive rather than the past indicative to denote decreased possibility and doubt in the writer's mind. I thought you would recognize the subjunctive's application in this instance. I hope your abilities with your tradesman's tools on a train entered with an employee pass be better than your abilities to parse a sentence.
To my grammatically challenged readers, let me unequivically state that I expressed doubt that Mr. Train Dude had abused his employee pass in my previous post.
The abuses that I alluded to involves two or more people using the same unlimited fare metro-card at different times of the day.
Such practices do not appear to be recognized as abuses by NYCT.
In reviewing your original contribution to this thread, I noticed that your primary objection for the public using an unlimited fare card is that disconnects the cost of service from its income stream. Should I infer that your are also opposed to the free bus-subway transfer for the same reason?
"I hope your abilities with your tradesman's tools on a train entered with an employee pass be better than your abilities to parse a sentence."
I don't think I should have to decypher your convoluted english to undersatnd your simplistic point nor do I have to agree with the TA as to their fare structure. As for my abilities with 'tradesman tools', I find that remark condescending as well. The TA finds my skills more than adequate. With your limited knowledge of the subject, I should think that would be testimony enough for you.
Isn't Stephen fun to spar with?
:0)
It would probably be more fun face to face!
Tradesmans tools??? What we carry are the necessary keys and levers to move, cut and disable defective cars. I also carry a ruggedized DVM, have the option of a digital storage scope and bring the basic electronic and mechanical hand tools (and a butane powered soldering iron.) One thing we don't need is fuses..all trainsets, especially my R142s, use circuit breakers. CI Peter
You are letting him win a minor point.
We don't need any tools to be of help. In your case you are not going to go underneath and start pulling stuff apart BUT you could give a better detailed diagnostic if a train behaved badly than RTO.
No, he lost. I'm not a TRADESMAN. What I am is a skilled and licensed communications professional with twenty five years of
experience. It doesn't take much to make a train go before serious yard work is required. CI Peter
Yes, but those who are lifelong suits have nothing but contempt for those who engage in real work.
I just had an experience.....and I learn everday. They can have their contempt for me...they didn't have to deal in the real private industry world...but I have to live with myself and my honor. CI Peter
Tradesmans tools??? What we carry are the necessary keys and levers to move, cut and disable defective cars...
The carrying of "tradesman's tools" was cited by Mr. Train Dude as justification for TA personnel, or at least his, receiving tax free transportation to their primary work location. He did not elaborate exactly how TA clerks, purchasing agents, etc, whould help train operations when carrying such tools on their trips to their primary work location.
Often a tunnel fire will justify your "clerical" folks who are trained in safety and evacuation. If you've never been in such a situation, it's a genuine eye-opener how these folks stand ready on their way to work to assist you out of a disabled train and to the street, crowd control and any number of other safety related issues.
Car inspectors carry tools, so do conductors and motorpersons. I don't think clerical folks do - but they DO carry what is needed in the event of a crisis - their brains. If you've never been in such a situation, God bless ... but if you HAVE, then you'd appreciate that EVERY employee knows how to be helpful and can be called upon ANY time it's needed. And they WILL ...
Don't deny these folks their "free ride" ... sorry, this other thread about the TWU screwage brought back a lot of memories that aren't pleasant.
I am a Station Agent. Most S/As have at least a 400 and 475 key. Some also have an 069 Key. Those 3 are used for many emergency gates for closed part-time exits. I cannot remember how many tiems I have let trapped customers back into the system after they went out a closed exit only turnstile(HET) and then have the street gate locked.
The S/As are like other NYCT employees- we are the eyesd and ears of the system--on duty or off-duty. Recently I was stopped by a sick customer at Broadway nassau who recognized my orange vest. I wenmt to the booth to request assistance then I watched the customer pendign arruival of the Police, I also drafted a customer to walk to the SOuth end to see if an officer was present and as the officer to respond. An officer was there and did assist and verfied the need fro EMS and called in the request to his dispatcher. Many times while off-duty I have answered travel questions and have reported customers walking on the road-bed, etc.
I am also a lunch relief and as such make 10-12 stops a night.IF you want us to pay then end free parking by employers, Make employees pay to use the lunch room or cafeteria (just to enter!)
Most employers have unwritten perks for their employees such as coke machines, candy machines, use of photocopiers, some allow use of phone for local calls. Why should we pay to ride our system? I say expand the pass to include SIRT,LIRR Metro North (In NY State Only- outside you would just pay the CT portion)-They are all MTA!
I'd go further and add NJT and PATH. I have assited NJT crews during emergencies.
Train Dude, what you consider abuse is explicitly permitted by the TA.
Lending or passing your TA pass is a punishable offense. Doing the same with a purchased MetroCard is a violation by the purchaser of the unwritten contract...issuance of a MetroCard is for the exclusive use by the purchaser. Problem is there is no way to check up on who bought the card for cash....and nobody really cares. CI Peter
>>> Doing the same with a purchased MetroCard is a violation by the purchaser of the unwritten contract...issuance of a MetroCard is for the exclusive use by the purchaser. <<<
If the MTA fails to publish anywhere the information that a purchased unlimited MetroCard is for the exclusive use of the purchaser, then it is not part of the contract. A contract is an agreement to its terms. A term that is not disclosed by one party to a contract cannot be a term of the contract, since the other party has no opportunity to agree to it.
Tom
We can milk this issue until the cows come home....the rules are in print somewhere. This is a matter of ethics...you have the choice to do as you wish. CI Peter
>>> the rules are in print somewhere. <<<
Where? Not on the MTA website. I and many others believe the purchased unlimited MetroCard is transferable. I would have no ethical problem with loaning one to a friend (without compensation) if I were not going to be using it.
Tom
I am not a attorney. The matter holds true for almost everything as a matter of commerce: 'purchased for exclusive use.'
>>> The matter holds true for almost everything as a matter of commerce: 'purchased for exclusive use.' <<<
Actually the opposite is true. If no mention of limitation is made, the law assumes the object of a sale is freely transferable.
Tom
Actually the opposite is true. If no mention of limitation is made, the law assumes the object of a sale is freely transferable.
"Services", such as transportation, are somewhat of a special case. However, in the case of the MetroCard, the MTA has specifically advertised that they are transferable under certain conditions, one of which is the oft-cited case of one person working the day shift and another using the card while they work the night shift. (Note that I'm talking specifically about a purchased MetroCard, not a student card or one issued to a TA employee.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's been pointed out many ties that the TA permits it on the subway while the MTA specifically forbids it on the LIRR. The fact was we were talking about raising the fare and getting rid of the unlimited ride metrocard would still be a viable way to do it.
BTW: on my train Thursday evening, a conductor on the LIRR confiscated a monthly ticket that belonged to a woman but was being used by her husband.
Let me add one more point: you can transfer your EZ Pass to another vehicle and get away with it until you get caught. TA employees would not even consider sharing the use of an unlimited ride MetroCard amongst family members...nickels and dimes saved are not worth losing a job over...if the got to court with a family member and they identify you...the explanation for the pink slip will be 'you should know better.' CI Peter
Let me add one more point: you can transfer your EZ Pass to another vehicle and get away with it until you get caught.
Actually, that's not a violation. You have three options there: (1) register the additional vehicles with the EZ-Pass folks, indicating that you are using one transponder for all these vehicles since they are not in service simultaneously, (2) taking the chance of having to pay a fine if the transponder doesn't work when in one of the registered vehicles, or (3) obtaining one transponder per vehicle, all coupled to the same account.
I don't have EZ-Pass, but if I did it would simply be for convenience when driving from NJ to DC and points south, and I would have only one transponder that I would move back and forth as needed (but two vehicles registered with EZ-Pass). (I don't drive into the City often enough to justify one for that purpose - and when I do go in by car it's on the weekend. Going to Branford I take the Tappan Zee - longer but faster than crossing the City.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A fellow CI was busted for unlawful transfer to a rented car. Such petty stuff isn't worth it in my book. CI Peter
Sounds strange, since EZPass will let you use your transponder to pay the tolls while you are traveling in a livery vehicle (taxi, car service, etc).
I have two transponders - one that goes back and forth between my two cars, and one used for towing a single-axle trailer.
Hmmmmmm! I have just (1) 'M' EZ Pass for my bikes. I am not aware that it's a violation to switch it from one bike to another.
Not gotten around to calling EZ Pass yet about license plate changes...they do random checks and you will be fined if caught. I have new NYS emergency service license plates and the old ones are listed with my new ones on registration. Any hassle isn't worth it. CI Peter
they do random checks and you will be fined if caught
Really? I thought that they wanted to be notified of a plate change as soon as possible, but I didn't think that they'd penalize you if you forgot. With New York reissuing plates, this has the potential to bite a lot of people - unless the E-ZPass agencies are in cahoots with DMV. My registration comes up in May, and I hadn't even thought about notifying their service center. (Thanks for reminding me!)
Mark
EZ Pass is a private company doing business with state agencies. IF you get caught the first time, they may (the TBTA officer) might let you slide BUT your transponder might be confiscated and you'll have a bill to pay. Random checks (the funny red light) insures a match between transponder reflections and the license plate.
Wrong. Both E-ZPass and MetroCard (any variety sold to the public at large -- I'm not referring to the kind you have, to school passes, or to elderly/disabled passes) are transferable. The terms of use are posted online.
That is not how the IRS sees it. You work in a deserted area at night your boss buys lunch so you can stay 'on call' part of that lunch is free.
You buy at employee discount, this is not deducted by the store in fact it may help raise taxes as it is usually on already discounted stuff that the store is about to take a bigger hit on.
Don't you pay tax on the 'free' airline seat. It is as available so it does not cost the airline very much extra.
BTW you can be of assistance without tools and I have. Even in traiing for evacuations they almost count on off duty TA and PD people being around to help.
The MTA actually forbids the use of a private vechicle while on duty at least for RTO. I am at the reporting center at PA and pick up a job I am supposed to swipe and go to my place of work then some jobs like the mail, switching or a yard make you go in and out of fare control all day long.
I work in the private sector in a factory, We recieve electronic assemblies in wooden crates. These crates have to be made of high grade lumber to protect the electronics. When emptied, these crates are given to employees. Myself and others use this lumber in household projects. But if you taxed this "perk" it would go away because it would be too expensive for my employer to administer. Also if you taxed TA workers for each free ride,the TA would have to total up each employee's rides and deduct tax based on those rides. This would not happen so the rides would go away. Ron, what perks do you have? are you jealous? DON'T BEGRUDGE THESE PEOPLE THAT WHICH THEY HAVE WORKED FOR. America has the lowest taxes in the industrialized world. what we need is moer progressitivity in our income taxes so that those who receive the top 1 percent of income contribute their fair share for a change. Nothing is more disgusting than tax cut loonies. BE GLAD YOU DON'T LIVE IN EUROPE, THEY PAY TAXES
I'm not jealous.
I currently do consulting, which means I have to create my own perks. On the one hand, I'm beholden to my clients. On the other hand, the way I accomplish the assigned tasks is entirely up to me. My chief perk is that I make a good income with a totally self-programmable schedule. The bad part is, I always have to go trolling for the next client...
Another one like me ... upstate, it's make yer own gig or starve. Only difference is my output gets retailed and is dependent on even stranger whims ... like "an economy" and such. :)
My pass is stamped 'Clerical/hourly.' I never realised that service to my Church would be recognised by TA. Anyone for confessions or annunciations??? CI Peter
I confess that you just made a funny!
Don't get him started or he'll be performing last rites ceremonies on da boids ... :)
Blasphemy!!! I'm only licensed as a lector and chalice bearer so I can't perform a proper burial BUT if you hand me the RPG...CI Peter
Oh come on ... all it'd take is a Louisville slugger to turn boids back to the dust from which they came. :)
One rt does not work. What if you are on the board, they want us to swipe everytime we enter and leave fare control (yeah well I wish for tyra banks).
If there are no seats you have to stand that is the restriction.
I work for a major airline, which carries with it the perk of free unlimited travel to/from anywhere my airline serves. The travel is not taxed if I am the one travelling, but is taxed for dependents, a spouse, or other companion travelling on my pass benefits. I believe the reason for this is that when I am travelling, I am on duty and required to assist or otherwise follow any instruction by ground or flight crew. I travel space-available (I only fly if there's a seat available when they're about to close the door) and have no guarantee that my checked baggage will get there intact, or even get there. My compensation for being on-duty (since slavery was abolished oh so long ago) is the value of the free flight.
I believe the TA reasoning is the same. Having as many TA employees on the property as possible allows for an extra margin of safety and security, as it increases the possibility that a trained and qualified person will be closer to the site in case of an emergency. Also, job applicants are more likely to accept a lower wage if they take into consideration the pass benefits, much like how I took my $9/hr job knowing I would get free flights. This keeps your fares lower (in theory) because less is paid out in wages, and one more rider does not cost the TA as much as is saved. IMO, this is how pass benefits in any travel or transit industry are feasible, and there could be even more reasons I'm not aware of. The pass is here to stay, and it doesn't cost the TA a significant amount of money. Get over it.
--
Ian Penovich
>>> I'm trying to reconcile is why a transit employee should be entitled to free transportation to his primary place of employment while the rest of us should have to declare such a perq as income on our 1040's. <<<
This is not unheard of in other businesses. In most retail stores employees get a discount on merchandise sold there, and hospital employees often get free or highly discounted medical care. Free transportation is a cheap perq for the TA, since the buses and trains are running anyway, so it is cheaper than giving the higher wages necessary to pay for the transportation, and makes it more likely that employees will be on the premises if needed for an emergency. Since the TA can arguably say they get a benefit from the employees using the system rather than driving, there is an excuse for not having the benefit taxed as income.
Tom
Anyone who wants to revoke TA employees free transoportation passes is nuts. Airlines give thier employees free air tickets.
The perk should be reported to the IRS. I once worked for a city agency that issues me a offical car. We had to pick up the cost of transit $3 a day on our taxs. Being in an investigative unit. I'd report to many differnt locations/stakeouts/search warrents etc every day. TA employees should have to pick it up on thier taxes like everyone else.
I'd just wish they require the police to take public trans to work. People living around police stations would certinly bennifit from the reduced amount of double parked cars
Just emagine a maintence worker buying tokens to empty a garbage can inside fare control
I'd just wish they require the police to take public trans to work. People living around police stations would certinly bennifit from the reduced amount of double parked cars
Amen. Amen! A M E N ! ! !
Living across from the NY Police Academy (with a precinct in the back) is clearly a net benefit in my nabe, but oh, the PARKING problems. It ebbs and flows; they park wherever they want til the neighbors complain loud enough, then they get yelled at and abide by the agreement ("cadets park here, not there") for a few months, then it starts over.
Though they do seem to carpool a lot.
Now about requiring the police to LIVE WITHIN the boundaries of the city they serve ... don't get me started. (I'm for it.)
Every police station and fire house have parking areas with signs "Authorized Police Vehicles Only"
Private cars, not being used in police work, parked all through the work shift, with a station issued "Offical" card in the window.
If they get a free ride, whats with the parking perk?
Airline employees fly standby, space available. If a paying passenger comes along, zap, they are off.
G.I.s fly 1/2 fare, space available, must be in uniform. There are perks and abuse of same. Clean up your act or lose your freebees!
avid
Clean up your act or lose your freebees!
Well, I'd agree. The higher-ups in the precincts do try, but a lot of the rank and file cops have an attitude. And not a lot of neighborhoods are gonna bitch until it gets REALLY bad.
Especially since 9/11.
Boomberg should spell it out plain and simple. IF you want the raise you deserve. Require city residence for all new recruits. I would be unfare to require current officers with family and houses elsewhere to pick up and move.
THier are many police and firefighters living in my neighborhood. Lets just say that you don;t have to ask twice to get a situation taken care of.
There's a firefighter who lives across the street from me. shortly after he moved in, he yelled at the kid next door because his friends would come by and honk instead of ringing the doorbell. A week later his friends came by... in a fire truck with all its noisemakers going. The entire block had a fit.
>>> A week later his friends came by... in a fire truck with all its noisemakers going. <<<
Please clarify. "His friends" refers to the kid next door or the firefighter? If it is the firefighter, was it done purposely as an example to the kid next door, or independent of the previous incident?
Tom
There's a firefighter who lives across the street ... his friends came by... in a fire truck with all its noisemakers going. The entire block had a fit.
Pre 9/11, I imagine? Right now the entire FDNY is in a major psychological depression ... friend of mine told me FDNY domestic violence is waaaaay up ... and it's gonna take years. (They lost 3% of their men on 9/11, but 3x that number probably have to go out on disability due to respiratory damage from post-9/11 fires and smoke.)
So I hope your nabe is just a little more tolerant for a while.
(My apt faces Third Ave in Manhattan, and I grew up 5 doors away from a hospital. Sirens are background noise to me! I take it you're in the burbs?)
Don't get me started on that topic......
Stephen, we have already paid for our passes, even though it may not appear so.
Back in the late 1970's amidst the budget crisis, the TA was going to discontinue free transportation for employees. An agreement was reached between the TA and TWU in which a 4% raise was forfeited in order to retain travelling priviledges.
If you do the math and take that 4% and add it up to each raise since then, you'll find that that comes to a big chunk of dough.
So if you take that into consideration, technically we are indeed paying for our transportation whether we use it or not, thus there is no tax liability.
>>> we are indeed paying for our transportation whether we use it or not, thus there is no tax liability <<<
I think you just made Stephen's case for him. If the union had taken a 4% raise in lieu of free transportation, you would be paying taxes on the money received. Therefore what you are getting is valuable and should be taxed as income. That argument fails to take into consideration tax policy which allows some valuable perqs to remain untaxed. Your free transportation is one of them. Another major untaxed perq is medical insurance. As long as the taxing authorities are willing to allow your free transportation to be an untaxed perq, there is no reason for any of the rest of us to gripe. So if, on your days off, you want to do a marathon trip of the entire system, keep the $1.50 in your pocket and enjoy. :-)
Tom
It is almost impossible to figure out what is work related and what is not.
Also it qualifies as DeMinumus, if you look at the IRS regs there are perk that are much better that don't get taxed.
>That goes for employees too, right? :-)
I'd rather take the money.
I would be in favor of a variable fare structure like the one you propose.
#3 West End Jeff
Totally disagree. For someone who rides transit alot the elimination of unlimited rides would double or triple how much I pay.
Alot more people would consider buying cars instead.
I do agree fares should be raised to $2 one way fare as well as increasing price of unlimited ride cards. But eliminating unlimited rides completely would be a disaster, and we've seen enough of that recently.
." For someone who rides transit alot the elimination of unlimited rides would double or triple how much I pay."
As someone who pays taxes, I resent your fare being subsidised to a greater extent that that of my daughter, who works for a living.
Amen!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the unlimted fare could still work, if the MTA has data from their Metrocard turnstiles that can tell them how many times per month the average unlimted card is currently used. If they can get that number, they can then set a fare that would allow for some type of discount based on averge number of trips per month, but not a whopping discount that's possible right now.
As for higher fares during rush hours, it might pass, so long as the fare was uniform across the entire system and not the zoned type of rush hour fare hike WMATA used. That would be considered biased in favor of Manhattanites and against outerborough riders and would cause all kinds of protests.
Agreed! If an increase is needed, increase, but DO NOT ELIMINATE unlimited rides. I'm sure they help tourism, as well as help me personally........
«Another larger discount for evening and night service. »
Why would you differenciate between off-peak and night fares? Night fares IMO are even more of a social service.
Arti
I don't realistically expect that a lower fare will lead to a higher demand for service during the late night hours. My reasons are two-fold. First, for the same reason that phone rates and electric rates are structured the way they are. Charge the least when your usage is the lightest. Second, with a standard 20 minute headway, proliferation of the homeless and multiple slow speed zones for track-gangs, the service is, in reality, worth less.
Unlike phone service (you can't remove trunk lines at night) transit requires staffing and produces even lower ROI during night hours. Reducing fare would serve no purpose.
Arti
...with a standard 20 minute headway, proliferation of the homeless and multiple slow speed zones for track-gangs, the service is, in reality, worth less.
Now there's a subversive concept: the fare should be related to the quality of service provided.
I almost cancelled the posting because I did not want it to be misunderstood. The straphanger's campaign periodically rates lines on what the ride is worth. I disagree with this concept despite the fact that my line was near in the top.
Yeah, I'd just BET hailing a taxi would have been a better deal. Yeah.
They are insane and have few solutions only complaints and demands, kind of like here.
I'd give the ratings greater credibility if the maximum possible rating weren't $1.50. The clear message is that no subway ride could possibly be worth more than the fare.
I don't disagree with every element of the ratings. IIRC, the 1 earned the title of least regular line; I concur.
"Eliminate the unlimited ride cards"
Huh?!? My understanding is that when unlimited cards were instituted in New York, ridership increased dramatically. The last time I checked, the purpose of an urban transit system is not to break even financially but to carry as many people as possible within a reasonable (though NOT necessarily balanced) budget.
I think Qtraindash7 is right that eliminating the unlimited ride cards will drive (pun very much intended) people to use cars more. Of course, people who work in Manhattan or other dense areas of the city well-served by transit aren't going to suddenly stop riding transit altogether and drive to work. But if they lose the option of unlimited ride cards, they may decide to use transit **only** to get to and from work, driving elsewhere on the off-hours and weekends -- exactly when the transit system has the capacity to handle extra riders. Isn't it precisely the off-hours and weekends when ridership rose after the unlimited cards came out?!
"I think Qtraindash7 is right that eliminating the unlimited ride cards will drive (pun very much intended) people to use cars"
The first thing that makes me suspicious of your post is that you think Qtraindash7 is correct. Let's figure this out:
20 mile trip to Manhattan by car: 2 gallons of gas $2.50
R/T tolls = $6.00 Parking $12.00 (estimate) That's over $20.00 per day not including wear & tear on your car, increased insurance, the occasional ticket or even the inevitable accident.
Now, do you really think people are going to give up commuting because of a few dollars every month? If so, how do you explain the packed LIRR and Metro North trains at $200 per month? I wouldn't.
I believe many of the additional rides generated by the unlimited ride card are short off and on hops that would not take place without it.
Case in point, taking the kids to school. It is about a 20 minute walk. Before the free transfer, we'd walk every day. With the free transfer, we'd sometimes take the bus, drop the kids off, and then get on the train, if the weather was bad. Now, with the unlimited ride card, we sometimes take the subway, get off with them, and get back on.
Absent unlimited rides, these trips might disappear. It is difficult to imagine people paying for them. So utility would go down, but revenue would not go up much. Moreover, it doesn't cost the TA much on the margin to provide such rides.
20 mile trip to Manhattan by car: 2 gallons of gas $2.50
R/T tolls = $6.00 Parking $12.00 (estimate) That's over $20.00 per day not including wear & tear on your car, increased insurance, the occasional ticket or even the inevitable accident.
First you forgot to read the rest of the post, where he mentioned that most of the trips were off-peak trips, and then you skew the results in your favor by trying for the most expensive possible trip, one involving tolls and parking fees. Let's also not forget that not everyone lives 20 miles away from their destination. If 20 miles costs $2.50, 10 miles will only cost $1.25 in gas. Now which is cheaper?
What I tried to do was figure the average trip. If you are not happy witht he numbers, drive.
I tried to assume an average trip for an average commuter - going into the city. My commute is 104 miles R/T + $6.00 for tolls. My car averages about 27 MPG and since I don't pay for parking that's roughly $11.00 per day plus the intangibles. Based on $20 round trips monthly, thats $220.00+ by car For that, my R/T commute would be roughly 3 - 3 1/2 hours daily in good weather.
By train LIRR is $200.00 monthly and subway for 40 trips would be $60.00 (if I paid) Commute is about 4 hours but no extra insurance, no tickets and no wear & tear. (no driving fatigue either)Parking is free at my local station. Now, based on those numbers, (not skewed) you can understand why my trains (AM & PM) are SRO every day.
Now if you think a fare increase will force people off the trains and into their cars, I don't think you are looking at the question objectively. Clearly John isn't looking beyond his own self-interests. He doesn't drive and can't afford a car.
I don't believe a fare increase will drive people off the trains and out of their cars, but eliminating unlimited rides will curtail off-peak trips. People will still ride to an from work, but then it many cases it would end there.
Not to mention loss revenues due to fewer trips into the city. A resonable fare increase to cover costs will be accepted by the riding public only if the TA takes all resonable steps to reduce unneccissary costs.
THe TA has increased its revenue due to unlimited ride cars. Many people buy them but fail to use enough rides to make them worth wile
Lets do the math.
Travel to from work only 40 rides per month
Pay per ride total cost $54(1.35*40) assuming 10% free ride discount
Unlimited ride monthly card total cost $63
Rider needs to use 7 more rides per month to break even
Unlimited ride Weekly card (4 weeks * $17)$68
Rider need to use 11 more rides per month to break even
The TA increases revenues if the rider does not take an additional 7 rides.
Unlimited ride cards and free ride discounts help both the riding public and the TA
TA
1) Unlimited ride cards increase averge $$ rider spends per month
2) unlimited ride cards and Free ride discount program = fewer trips to the token booth or mvm reducing cost of good sold
Rider
1) increase usabilty of the transit system;
2) reduces lines at token booths or MVM's
3) Possiblity of reduced cost of transit if frequent user such as low income earners (keep in mind then low income earners frequently have 2 jobs. The unlimited ride cars bennifit them the most)
6.6
Very logical points.
"Clearly John isn't looking beyond his own self-interests. He doesn't drive and can't afford a car."
I presume you're talking about Qtraindash7, because I do own a car and have stated so in the past on this board. Plus my argument in favor of the unlimited fare card has nothing to do with my own interests -- I use a commuter rail monthly pass or 10-ride ticket depending on how many days I'll be out of town in a month.
John B. Bredin, Esq.
You are correct. I was referring to Qtraindash7
What is cheaper?? Lack of agida getting to my yard in 21 minutes versus 1 1/2 hours on the subway. If I'm late, I get docked and chastised. Besides, i need the car for emergency service and still have the insurance and gas bill to pay. CI Peter
Taking public transportation is not always the best option
Some people are so thick headed on this board that they fail to realize that.
Some people go through the hassel of driving in to work because it just makes more sense in thier situation
T H A N K Y O U ! ! ! One of my many supervisors chastised me as crazy for taking the train to work.....'I don't take the train...it takes too long...I don't need to be reminded of my work.' Had to do it because my car was laid up...and I had to ride MY trainsets!!! You can just imagine what went through my mind as I sensed running problems...we were kicked off a #2 R142 because of door indication failures. CI Peter
>>> I had to ride MY trainsets!!! You can just imagine what went through my mind as I sensed running problems <<<
Maybe they should require those in your position ride the trains once a week to check out their handiwork.
In the U.S. Army there is a policy of having the helicopter mechanic who makes critical repairs to a helicopter ride along on the first test flight. It promotes better quality control.
Tom
Lets do the math of my saturday night outing to manhattan from sheepshead bay brooklyn
40 mile trip to Manhattan by car: 2 gallons of gas = $2.50
no tolls(Brooklyn bridge) = $0 Parking(parked on street in times square and chelse)
total cost $2.50 including free bus transfer at sheepshead bay to B36 bus total travel time 45 min - 1.5 hrs
Cost by subway without unlimited ride card
4 people * $1.50 = $6.00 sheepshead bay to union square
4 people * $1.50 = $6.00 union square to 42nds street times square
4 people * $1.50 $6.00 42nd street times square to sheepshead bay
TOTAL COST $18 total travel time 30 min
saving by driving $15.50
My friends and I ussually use our unlimited ride cards to take the train in. Prior to the one city one fare we would not evan have considered driving in. the only reason we did this week was because 2 of the 2 people coming out were teachers who drive to work due to the lack of brookyn queens crosstown train service in our area
I think the fare should be raised in proportion to the TWU contract
Love this as a political move, but to be realistic, what proportion of TOTAL subway expenses are personnel? You gotta factor that in.
All of these tax cuts and fare freezes are being paid for with debt, at the federal, state and local level. Some of the debt is hidden, off the books. We'll all be better off just facing up to things.
I agree. Oh god, do I agree. But I wished that this desire could be translated into political will.
In the end, I suspect that (netting out usual political shrieking) the peoples of NYC would accept a transit hike. The service continues to get better (in MANY places, probably not including the effects of the Manny B closure) and people understand that nothing stays the same forever.
I like $2 peak and $1.50 offpeak. They should keep offering discounts for advance purchase since the cash upfront clearly helps the TA since the incremental costs of added trips owed in the future are essentially zero.
In the 2001 NYC Transit operating budget (I don't have the 2002 budget yet), 73% of nonreimbursable expenses went to labor and benefits. (Reimbursable expenses include positions paid for by the capital program, police, etc.).
David
(73% of nonreimbursable expenses went to labor and benefits. (Reimbursable expenses include positions paid for by the capital program, police, etc.).
The capital program is paid for by big time borrowing. The temptation at the top, and pressure at the bottom, to shift operating expenses to the captial program is certainly there, and the accounting system makes it easy. That's because operating personnel do work on capital contracts all the time, and charge the capital contract just by putting a contract number down on a timecard. I fear that managers may be unrealistically pressured to stay within budget to "save the fare," and, well, if capital projects run out of money all over the place two years from now you'll know why.
This is just one of many games than can be played. Not ordering parts. Not doing inspections. Etc. Millions of the most influential and organized current residents of this state would benefit from going back to the bad old days. They'd be gone to other states before the reckoning -- just like in the 1970s. Be vigilant, and be prepared to SCREAM BLOODY MURDER.
So they're doing the old operating expenses into capital budget 3-card-monty game. John Lindsay and Abe Beame would be proud!!
(Who exactly are the "Millions of the most influential and organized current residents of this state"???)
Actually, this year, because of higher than anticipated revenue and lower subsidies, before 9/11, the TA had planned to use operating monies to fund some capital programs. Of course due to the expenses brought about by 9/11, that may not be possible although much of the infrastructure damage may be covered by insurance.
I didn't know there was insurance to cover the infrastructure. Is there any kind of insurance covering the aquisition of new tech and loss of revenue in A and B divisions?
(Before 9/11, the TA had planned to use operating monies to fund some capital programs.)
To me, much of what counts as "capital spending" in the TA should be covered by the operating budget not debt. Ie. "normal replacement" of X miles of track, about 200 cars, and about 200 buses per year. If they funded ongoing replacement with ongoing revenues, they could borrow to fund system expansion.
The capital program is paid for by big time borrowing. The temptation at the top, and pressure at the bottom, to shift operating expenses to the captial program is certainly there, and the accounting system makes it easy. That's because operating personnel do work on capital contracts all the time, and charge the capital contract just by putting a contract number down on a timecard. I fear that managers may be unrealistically pressured to stay within budget to "save the fare," and, well, if capital projects run out of money all over the place two years from now you'll know why.
Internal accounting controls should be able to stop or at least limit that sort of chicanery. I'm not saying that an impregnable Chinese Wall can be erected between the capital and operating sides, but with a reasonable amount of effort it can be made very difficult and risky to shuffle funds. Now, the fact that there are no workable controls shows to me that the higher-ups don't want to stop the money shuffle, not that they can't.
I agree. Even if you can't see it in the here and now, trying to maintain a low fare as a be-all and end-all has been poison to the New York City Transit System.
I would caution against a higher rush fare because of culture and complication. I'd see a zoned system first.
>>> I would caution against a higher rush fare because of culture and complication. <<<
You need to explain what you mean by that. A peak, or off peak, differential would seem to be the easiest to implement and to understand of all fare plans outside of a general increase.
Tom
In DC people hate the peak/off-paek differential, and there's no culture of having it here. I could see some people fighting with the token clerk over having to pay a higher fare.
A zone fare would be harder to implment, it's true, but I think people might view it as fairer.
Simple implementation would be that the MetroCard would be debit...clicking off the money as it is used. EZ Pass tags work that way IF you travel off-peak. SEPTA charges by distance...your card is required for access and egress. The whole shebang could only work if the masses got more timely travel....ain't gonna happen on museum trackage even with new tech trainsets. CI Peter
>>> In DC people hate the peak/off-paek differential <<<
Why is that? Perhaps the times used are not logical. Here in Los Angeles the buses (but not the trains) have two fares according to time. The base fare for local service is $1.35, but is reduced to $0.75 from 9:00 P.M. til 5:00 A.M. There seems to be no problem with that. I could see more of a problem if the time change were in the mid day hours (10:00 A.M. to 4:00 P.M.) where more people would be traveling right at the time the fare changed. But if it were sold as a discount for the off hours rather than a premium for the busy hours, there should not be strong opposition.
Fare zones based on distance traveled run counter to the "we are all one city" way of thinking. If it costs more to travel from Brooklyn to Manhattan than to travel within Brooklyn, interborough travel will be reduced somewhat, and the local area becomes more of a focal point for all of one's interactions.
Tom
Fare zones based on distance traveled run counter to the "we are all one city" way of thinking. If it costs more to travel from Brooklyn to Manhattan than to travel within Brooklyn, interborough travel will be reduced somewhat, and the local area becomes more of a focal point for all of one's interactions.
The "one city one fare" issue is very important in New York. Any attempt to institute zoned fares for intra-city travel would cause a big political ruckus. Timed fares would be more acceptable, although for reasons stated elsewhere I consider them inequitable.
One big reason, I think, that people don't like the peak/off-peak fare differential in DC is the reason I discovered when I lived there, and didn't like it: The period when peak service is provided is shorter than the period when peak fares are charged. I used to regularly arrive at work later than lots of my colleagues and leave later, so I often rode the Metro between 9:30 and 10, and between 7 and 7:30 or so, and found that even though peak fares were charged, the service frequencies were NOT peak frequencies at all. [1]
IIRC, they're now charging peak fares until 8 PM. But the more frequent peak service is only offered until 6:30 or 7 or so.
Rightly or wrongly (rightly, IMO), the perception has been that you pay more in the peak because the service is better. By gradually extending the peak-fare periods, WMATA has broken that connection and pissed people off.
The official explanation is that the "peak" fare is actually the base fare, and that the off-peak fares are discounted. The implication seems to be that passengers should be thankful to even get the somewhat cheaper (but still quite expensive for longer journeys) off-peak fares at all. Needless to say, this has not exactly been a PR bonanza for WMATA....
-- Tim
[1] It didn't make any difference to me in practice -- I commuted between Dupont Circle and Rosslyn, which is the minimum fare -- but I still felt WMATA was cheating the people who were riding longer distances.
(One big reason, I think, that people don't like the peak/off-peak fare differential in DC is the reason I discovered when I lived there, and didn't like it: The period when peak service is provided is shorter than the period when peak fares are charged. I used to regularly arrive at work later than lots of my colleagues and leave later, so I often rode the Metro between 9:30 and 10, and between 7 and 7:30 or so, and found that even though peak fares were charged, the service frequencies were NOT peak frequencies at all.)
It should be the other way around -- extend peak frequencies beyond the main rush hours, to entice people to ride a little earlier or later and spread the load.
I imagine $2.00 peak fares from 7:30 to 9:00 a.m., and from 4:30 to 6:00 p.m. The fare could ramp up 7:00 to 7:30 and 4:00 to 4:30, and ramp down from 9:00 to 9:30 and 6:00 to 6:30. It could increase or decrease by ten cents every five minutes.
It should be the other way around -- extend peak frequencies beyond the main rush hours, to entice people to ride a little earlier or later and spread the load.
Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if WMATA could be that rational instead of using this as a revenue-raising trick and making excuses about it? :-(
Regards,
Tim
>>> The fare could ramp up 7:00 to 7:30 and 4:00 to 4:30, and ramp down from 9:00 to 9:30 and 6:00 to 6:30. It could increase or decrease by ten cents every five minutes. <<<
Although time based fare differentials are workable, the gradual change of fare would be a nightmare. It would result in odd balances on MetroCards which would be difficult to keep track of, and bad PR as people look at inaccurate watches and believe the TA is cheating them of a few cents by running a fast clock. The really frugal will still wait till the fare is the lowest, and those in a hurry would enter at the maximum fare just as they would during any intermediate fare. For PR reasons the fare should go up five minutes after the advertized time and go down five minutes before the advertized time so those with inaccurate watches will not feel cheated.
Tom
Good point, Paul. The customer would be less inclined to 'fly off the handle' if distance were the measure of the fare and not peak/off peak.
Most folks can comprehend the idea of travel being more costly the further away you go from the 'hub' area.
BMTman
Dougie, I love you and all but *B* *S* ... just ask any resident of Rockaway when they had to play the "Charlie on the MTA" trick with having to pay to EXIT or a double fare to get home. Didn't matter how much it cost, double fare or "premium fare" never gains hearts or minds, even if you could bury it in a "metrocard whoopsie" ... Zone fares would work on any commuter railroad, but you'd have riots in the streets if the MTA tried it on the subways ... no matter what the excuse.
Rioting in the streets over a small fare increase based on mileage --- I don't think so, but then again, anything is possible.
Hell, I'd be rioting in the streets if Drakes eliminated 'Ring Dings'...;-D (another plug for a food product dubbed 'breakfast of champions' by workers throughout the transit system)
BMTman
Roach Coach doesn't deliver Ring Dings.
You gotta buy those elsewhere ... to motormen in the old days, we referred to them as "big tokens" ...
Remember their slogan at the end of their commercials? "How long can a good thing last?" The fellow who also played the Maytag repair man did a commercial for Drake's Devil Dogs.
Rioting in the streets over a small fare increase based on mileage --- I don't think so, but then again, anything is possible.
Even if a distance-based fare became politically acceptable, there'd be major practical issues, namely the need for exit swipes.
Yeah, maybe not ... but NYPIRG would blow a substation at least if there was a zone fare scheme ...
On to happier thoughts - yes, the ring ding is the official eats of cab dwellers most everywhere, but that's only because the ORIGINAL cab eats of yesteryear, the powdered sugar donut, would result in too many delays for "police action" ... ah, how I miss the days of Twin Donuts and the floor heater on an R9 to keep them nice and gooey. :)
LOL!
zone/distance fares while traditional on mailine commuter systems, are IMHO unjustifiable within a single city limit. The experience of 'real unification' when Metrocards were set up to integrate bus/subway usage shoild be instructive. Balkanizing the the city into transit ghettos is a dumb maneuver. Operationally it would require dip swipe at both ends which is nearly unmanegable in midtown for AM rush.
The City always was "Balkanized" in its fares--the difference was that the two-fare (or more) zones were created by proximity to a subway line instead of by distance, the latter of which is fairer.
"One City One Fare," like the universal 5-cent subway fare is a political construct. The line between "traditional" zone fares on a commuter road and "universal" fares is just doing things in a certain way because that's the way it's been done, not because its logical or fair.
A commuter, whether by subway, bus or rail line, is just someone trying to get to work.
Someone going from Tottenville to Times Square pays the same fare as someone going from Harlem to Times Square. But someone going from Merrick to Penn on the LIRR pays a higher fare than someone going from Freeportt to Penn. There is no justification for one and not the other on the basis of fairness, only politics and demagoguery.
Like that term 'Balkanized.' I doubt that a Serbian student today could make changes like in 1914 re Archduke Ferdinand. Not everyone in TA has their brains numbed. CI Peter
You are certainly correct that the ripoff fare tradition is not FRA mandated--I of course favor lowering ALL transit fares within the five boros. By me LIRR and MN would become Metrocard single fare within city limits. Also PATH and any other PA rail project would be same. And you are right it is all politics. The fares have no rational relationship to capital or operational costs.
I of course favor lowering ALL transit fares within the five boros. By me LIRR and MN would become Metrocard single fare within city limits.
So you would have the LIRR fare be $1.50 with free subway transfer (as you would with Metrocard) from Penn to Queens Village (15.2 miles), then jump to $6.25 with NO subway transfer if you're going one stop and 1.1 miles further to Bellerose in Nassau County?
Who pays for this boon to City riders? And on what basis do you justify it?
Ultimately, as I have commented before I am anti fare entirely. I despair ever getting that but any step which encourages usage and discourages car use is a good thing. As to the equity issue at the city border, the problem here is exactly the distribution of the tax fueled expenditures. If Nassau and Suffolk wanted to join the five boros in a just tax equity setup then the LIRR should be one fare all over. Before you pounce, hear me out. For years, NYCity has been treated as a cash cow for the state. If ALL tax monies in NY state were allocated on a head count basis NYCity would be rolling in cash and able to fund transit for suburbanites as well as better schools etc. The current setup siphons money out of the city to fud suburban sprawl nfrastructure and just enough scraps to satisfy the rural and upstate areas.
Next issue. It is long past time for LIRR since it is an 85 foot subway, to become far less overstaffed, go barrier control for large volume stations, and generally shape up.
It is an article of faith that NYC is a "cash cow" for the rest of the state, but this assertion (as challenged by, among others, former Mayor Koch) is based on doubtful economic assumptions.
Countering complaints about the widely vaunted dispartity of TBTA money going to the RRs/transit system, the state has quietly been picking suburbanites pockets to convey more money to the City system. "Quietly" because, though it's there in place sight, the suburbs don't have the watchdog groups the City has to watch and noisily complain about every cent that goes somewhere they don't like.
Case in point, the Petroleum Business Tax, supposed to be a tax on oil businesses in the State, but actually a backdoor ADDITIONAL gas tax. When a well-known City transit advocate (whom I won't name for several reasons) at a forum I recently attended was asked about trying to milk the suburbs for more money for the City system, he said that this wasn't politically possible at this time and that if suburbanites knew how much money they were paying at the pump for this tax, there could be a lot of noise.
He mentioned how much money it was, and I was so surprised, I looked it up and I didn't mishear him.
Do YOU know much it is?
Do YOU know what the split is for the money from this tax (paid overwhelmingly by New Yorkers outside the City) for the suburban railroads vs. City transit?
II do NOT have that data--but I would refer you to Larry Littlefield's excellent article at the NYU Taub site. The OLD numbers when I lived there were gross NY state revenues raised within city 43 %, spent within city 16 %. And from a natiuonal perspective, if the reverse were true it would be exceptional. The mobement in the greater Twin Cities to redistribute funding came from evidence that the burbs were pigging all the regional money. Here in the SF Bay Area, BART which is a hybrid sort of subway sort of suburban commuter train gets the lions share of regional transi money but hauls thousands fewer passengers per day than for instance the SF MUNI within one county(BART serves three counties and is expanding into a fourth as it is extended to the airport). In dollars spent per rider served BART is a huge money sink--but it has the political muscle. The entire history of US societal change since WWII has been based on continuous and further secession from the urban cores both into the burbs, edge cities, and in general to the 'right to work' for inadequate wages South and SW. You can trace the decline of urban public education to the white flight to the burbs and the money which went with it. Once the famly stopped going 'downtown' to shop, most of urban America began a long downhill slide. It is rare for the well to do suburbanites to be interested in spending tax monies on the people they chose to mve away from.
The OLD numbers when I lived there were gross NY state revenues raised within city 43 %, spent within city 16 %.
Spent on WHAT? Does that include money for state share of Medicaid and Welfare?
And as to school money, without engaging the issue of where the money comes from and where it goes (for example, I think LL and I agree that the City likes to take its state money for things they place a higher priority on than education and transit) I don't believe New York's biggest problems with education are a lack of money. It more involves decisions on classroom curriculum, teacher and principal accountability, allocation of resources, the bottomless well of 110 Livingston Street, and corruption. When New York City (wisely, I thought at the time) began community school boards, it was supposed to give City schools what the suburbs had--local boards accountable to local people. Instead the boards were hijacked to serve as fiefdoms for the dispensing of patronage.
.
My point, And I think this horse is dying, is that the state derives more money than it spends within the city. The numbers of course derived from a candidate's rantings (Mailer) who was running for mayor on a secesssionist ticket(make thecity the 51t state). The bottom line still is that the tax monies collected within the US are NOT equitably disbursed for the good of the citizenry(duh!) As I have posted before, the Bush voting states(mostly rural, mostly non manufacturing economies(except defense), get far more money back from the Feds than they contribute. Look in the NYT archives for a story on just this issue in early Jan 01.
One B02 would build severalmiles of subway. What do we want?
Well, right at this particular moment in history, we might need the B-2.
Which brings up another point. When the Feds tried to push some money in the City in the way of military spending, as in other parts of the country (Homeport on Staten Island), opposition managed to get it thrown out, along with the money and jobs it brought in. The excuse was that it would make New York a military target. That looks pretty stupid after 9/11. (It was stupid before, too, but no one thought much about it then)
Okay, I give up. Any further discussion of budget and military should be sent off board. See the 'contributors' page on this site for my e'mail.
Well, I think the horse is dead, anyway.
To encourage people to travel off peak, I'd raise the fare during rush hours only -- to $2.00 for a start. That would be $1.81 with the 11 for 10 bonus, up from $1.37 now. In the afternoon, peak hour fares would only apply to those boarding in the center of town -- Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, Long Island City, the Hub -- not for those coming in on empty trains.
Off-peak travel is not always the sort of thing that can be encouraged. Given a choice, even without fare differences, most people would very gladly avoid packed rush-hour trains in favor of less crowded off-peak ones. Work schedules being what they are, however, most people don't have any such option. Economic factors aside, there's something inequitable about charging more for the "privilege" of squeezing onto packed trains when people have no choice in the matter.
While off-peak travel can't necessarily be encouraged for those who are working, peak travel can be discouraged for those who are on their own time. It works well on the LIRR and the other commuter lines -- witness how much more crowded the first outbound off-peak train is each evening than the last outbound peak train. Same goes for the last off-peak outbound before peak period begins.
The metrocard system gives the TA quite a bit of flexibility to utilize peak period pricing. They should be looking at all of their options.
CG
Looks like we've got five yeses and three nos. The nos ought to know that there are really only two choices. A higher fare now, or a higher fare after Pataki is re-elected. The latter will have to be higher still, to dig us out of the whole.
Something for nothing is a fools game. For example, the East River Bridges were built with tolls. They are rebuilt with massive debt but without tolls. Does that make them free? Of course not. New Yorkers are paying more in taxes, and forgoing other services, to pay back the bonds.
It isn't like the fare is never going to go up. This is reality. So raise it now and get it over with. The downside is that raising the fare in a recession is the same as raising taxes in a recession - a bad idea. But what other realistic choices are there? Our elected officials have been conditioned to treat us like children when it comes to the subway fare.
For example, the East River Bridges were built with tolls. They are rebuilt with massive debt but without tolls. Does that make them free? Of course not. New Yorkers are paying more in taxes, and forgoing other services, to pay back the bonds.
The last of the bonds for the construction of the four "free" East River bridges were paid back in 1956.
(The last of the bonds for the construction of the four "free" East River bridges were paid back in 1956.)
The way they refinance debt these days, the debt issued to rebuild these bridges will outlast the bridges themselves by centuries.
The way they refinance debt these days, the debt issued to rebuild these bridges will outlast the bridges themselves by centuries.
A soap bubble is likely to outlast the Manhattan Bridge!
I'll probably be shot, but I agree. Raise the fare enough to keep things in good shape plus build at least some of the new subway and rail lines that are so desperately needed. My only reservation is that mass transit costs tend to fall disproportionately on the poor, but just too much needs to be done to keep playing games, and we can't count on Uncle Sam or his nephews and nieces in Albany to provide the funding.
"My only reservation is that mass transit costs tend to fall disproportionately on the poor,"
1 subway ride fro a welfare person = $1.50
1 subway ride for a middle class worker = $1.50
1 subway ride for Donald Tump = $1.50
Must be that new liberal math that I don't understand.
Trump would be able to afford an Unlimited ride while a poor person, living from paycheck or paycheck would only to be able to afford a daily token or a 15$ card. Therefore Trump pays less.
No - you still don't get it. Trump pays the same amount. It just has a lesser impact on his budget. Are you now advocating that Pathmark should get financial disclosure statement from it's customers before deciding what they will charge individuals for a can of chicken-noodle soup? Should I pay more for a gallon of gasoline than you or less than Bill Gates? Is this the type of society you are looking for?
PathMark is a division of Supermarkets General. SG owned 'Rickels' and collapsed that division. PathMark loses money every day...but not enough money to collapse..so they remain open to service areas of 'depressed economy.' Buck fifty is a bargain. CI Peter
Politics today being what they are, the poor will pay one way or another, in a higher fare or a worse transit system. That's why I advocate a peak hour fare. Most lower-wage jobs are not 9 to 5, so the poor would not be hit by it.
'Peak hour fare' just won't fly......it would be like 'foostamps.' CI Peter
>>> 'Peak hour fare' just won't fly...... <<<
Of course not. But if it is called "off peak discounts" it accomplishes the same thing and is more acceptable. i.e., a rise in the general fare to $2.00 with off peak discounts of $.50 per ride is the same as raising the peak fare only to $2.00 but sounds better to the consumer.
Tom
Raising mass transit fares just encourages people to drive in vs taking mass transit. Causes excess hardship to those working low end jobs.
The current unlimited ride metrocards makes it hard for me to justify driving my car to locations along transit routes
Trump pays the same amount.
If Trump can afford an Unlimited ride card and a poor person cannot then Trump pays less per ride than a poor person.
Raise the fare....fix my salary with some small increment to keep up with life and take care of me when I'm ill. I AGREE. CI Peter
What needs to be done is to reduce the labor intensiveness of operating the transit system by utilizing technology. This would allow transit operators to raise salaries without causing them to raise fares.
Ex: the reason nypd is the lowest paid police force in the area is the number of officers.
A 10% raise costs the city a larger dolar amoun then a 10% raise cost say suffork county because suffork has far fewer officers
The Lord TRULY put into my heart some dearly needed lessons when GM held my car up for service for over a week. Maybe the 'poorest poor' who cannot afford shoes must take the subway but the poor MUST be killing themselves over the long transit time it takes for them to travel to work. Twenty one minutes by car to the 239th Yard...how about 1 1/2 hours on MY subway cars???? Labor intensiveness will not decrease until the trackage and signals are brought into the 21st Century...not to mention the FILTHY PIGS who vandalise the system and leave their marks about like dogs on a hydrant. Every car inspector gets paid the same wages...equal opportunity ...so why should the skills i have to serve the TA be wasted changing out windows where cracks occur from scratchitti??? I'm happy with the work...any work...and I do TRULY know that after 911 I am in the right place to serve. JUICE MAKES TRAINS GO. CI Peter
The only salvation for the poor is work hard so that thier children have it better then themselves. that is the montra that the sucessful have used to move up the latter to middleclassnes.
Although the poor person you speak of may take longer to get where he need to by mass transit then by car. At least he/she has the opurtunity to do so.
What I'm suggesting is to bring the transit system into the 21th century.
There is no arguement from me. I serve when called and I have found a calling at my late age like my crewmen. We come to TA with many years of combined experience and technical expertise, waiting for something to come along beyond replacing brake shoes or greasing Redbirds before they become aquariams.
The 'hidden infrastucture' is moved each and everyday by subway and our hands are upon everything. We are the new guys of Car Equipment Department, we know how gifted we are to have new work, we MAKE TRAINS GO. We're also old enough to know how hard our parents worked to make something of themselves after the war. CI Peter
"What needs to be done is to reduce the labor intensiveness of operating the transit system by utilizing technology?"
What makes you think this is not being done? AC motors are replacing DC motors in some car equipment. Static converters replaced motor-generators. E-Cam controllers require less maintenance that their predecessors. Fluorescent lights replace incandescent bulbs. Electronic side signs replaced roll-signs and the mechanical transport mechanism. Composition shoes replaced steel brake shoes. The integration of technology is constant at the NYCT. It's just so common because of the fleet size, that it's always viewed as small steps instead of giant leaps as in smaller railroads.
Sorry guys but I am witholding my anger and have to vent electrolyctic caps from my one kilowatt high frequency station:
TA NEEDS TO BLEED OFF LAZY INCOHERENT SLACKERS!!!!!! PERIOD!!!
On September 11th, I watched thousands lose their lives on television and then drove into the city to begin my new career with the Transit Authority just a few days later. I witheld my obligation to provide emergency service communication work because of my deep feeling that TA needed me more. Nothing will
EVER make up the loss to my city, not 'new tech,' not AC tech, not CBTC comm, not nothing. 'Being and doing' is all that needs to be said. The system will awake when TA puts us all comm/comp/aviation/aerospace/COM CAD/radio techs to use. Thomas Edison is dead...everyday is alive with the genius of Nicolai Tesla. WE WERE HIRED TO MAKE TRAINS GO and the old civil service system that graces employment for everyone has become 'the root evil of opportunity.' I will never learn the TA shuffle. I promise. CI Peter
"If Trump can afford an Unlimited ride card and a poor person cannot then Trump pays less per ride than a poor person."
That's a completely different proposition than the original one. Even as such, your statement is only conditionally true. Let's say that the poor person buys the $15.00 metrocard and gets 11 rides @ $1.37 per ride. Let's also say that Mr. Trump buys the unlimited Metrocard at $60.00 (I'm not sure of the actual price). This would mean that Mr. Trump would have to use that card 44 times in order to pay less than the poor person. If he uses it 43 ties or less, the actually pays more. That not withstanding, in my original post I advocated getting rid of the unlimited ride metrocard. Even though it provides larger amounts of cash immediately, I believe it causes a financial drag on the system.
So what we do is replace a few CTAs with green vests. TWU would love it, right??? TA pizza would go up in price too. CI Peter
You raise an interesting point.
Do people really max out their unlimited cards? Some do by taking bus rides for a stop or two that they would never have done if they had to pay. But if you throw in sick days, three day vacations and such does the system really lose. Then also consider the goal, lowering the number of station agents.
Now I would increase the dead time to discourage ride sharing and trivial trips.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the unlimited card was actually limited by time. In other words, one month of unlimited rides. Therefore if trump used his card 40 times in the one month period, he'd be paying $1.50 per ride.
My thought was that while the TA loves getting those $60 lumps of cash, the unlimited card can be passed around to the extent that 2 or 3 people could be riding on it at different times of day. If a person lives ina 2 fare zone and works 20 days per month, 80 to 90 rides per month is reasonable. If 2 people share the one card illegally, they could easily use the card 160 - 180 time per month. That's a drain on the system resources.
No, you can't stand by the turnstile and give everyone a freebie.
There is a delay before it can be reused, there has been criticism here that the delay can be removed but was not. I think the public has a 17(?) minute delay and ours has less (8?) which is what the person here objected to.
«if 2 people share the one card illegally, they could easily use the card 160 - 180 time per month»
It's not illegal.
Arti
>>> It's not illegal <<<
Read the sentence again. There are ways that two people can share an unlimited card that are legal, and there are ways that are illegal. The illegal ways were being addressed.
Tom
That form of sharing is allowed. The form of sharing that is not allowed is 2 or more using it at the same time. I.E. the "owner" uses the card and enters and then passes it to another person who waits 18 minutes and then enters( while the "owner" waits") and often this is repeated for a third or even fourth customer. We do challenge customers who try to do that and some buy a token or their own card and some ignore us (so what else is new ?) and a select small scattering will leave the station entirely including the "owner" who will exit the system and both or all 3 or 4 will leave the station.
Sorry, no sharing allowed. Purchase of the MetroCard is by unsigned contract for the exclusive use of its original purchaser. Period. The smucks that used to stand by the turnstiles for a 'handwipe' are all gon. CI Peter
What the MTA says on its web site is that you can't ask for money in return for swiping your card through the turnstile for someone. It doesn't say you can't wait 18 minutes and then swipe again for another family member.
It does say that use is subject to the tariff, which isn't printed on the web site anywhere that I can find. So the tariff probably has many more restrictions in it.
But given that the MTA doesn't list those restrictions on the web site, or in the "code of conduct" posted in various places, I think you probably can't easily be arrested for sharing among family members. Charging a dollar for a swipe will of course get you nailed really fast.
I really don't think that anyone will wait for 'La Migre Familia' to clock through every eighteen minutes. I know sometimes travel cost is a hardship...i saw a lady stuck unable to enter a unattended turnstile...and it didn't take me long to realise what it migh cost me to gain her access. The system is still loosing revenue to cheaters...some of them are cleaning up around my yard. CI Peter
What I was referring to was Mr. Jones uses his unlimited metrocard to go to his night job. When he gets home, he passes it to Mrs. Jones who then uses it all day.
Which is perfectly legal.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I always get a good deal on my unlimiteds. I don't think I've ever used a Fun Pass for fewer than three rides (not counting frivolous rides or unnecessary transfers through the turnstiles), and before I bought my one and only 7-day pass, I determined that it was cheaper than a mix of Fun Passes and individual rides.
I will admit that on Sunday, it was raining, and an M104 was pulling up anyway, so I hopped on for one stop. I hope the driver didn't see me skulk out the back door.
Railfans don't count as normal people.
Well, I certainly don't.
But you don't think that people think through their planned rides of the day before using a Fun Pass? I agree that this is a bit harder to do for the longer-term unlimiteds.
>>No - you still don't get it.<<
This is probably hopeless but I am going to try one more time. Because the subway like the library, and the police and tyhe fire dept, are PUBLIC SERVICES, and as such are not run solely to generate profit in dollars, but also general social "good" like ability to commute to work, play. health care etc, and also to reduce the use of single user cars, sunway pricing has no inherent need to reflect so-called actual costs. The 'fare' is strictly a political issue. The abolition of the commuter tax was a shift in costs from the suburban users to the urban residents even though the suburbanites are in general better able to pay and as such pay less than the city dwellers on a percentage (or hourly) basis. If you believe in fully assessed "user fees" for government servics, so be it. I DON'T. and I'm not a liberal. I am a socialist.
Train Dude and the rest of us in TA know the system isn't built for profit. It is a giveaway for the wealthy and a necessity for the working person. The politics of inducing a fare system like SEPTA would really hurt the people of our city. I hear the complaints of those from 'depressed areas' about the cars they ride in (Redbirds.) Problem is that like in the telephone industry: business pays the bills of the consumers. The money has to come from somewhere...the residents of the State of New York would'nt vote a dime to the system.
The sad part is, it is our (NYC's) money.
I am on the verge of suggesting to the union that the next political action they support with COPE is a pettition to drop NYC from the State.
We could be NY the city state.
It actualy might work politcally. DC will never get statehood because who wants two more Democrat Senators BUT if NYC and NYS become states there is no way Hilary or Chuckie Cheese can win a NYS sans NYC we will have created two Republican senators to offset Jesse Jackson and Marion Barry the DC senators. Plus then we could have Guilaini as Governor (how bizarre how bizarre)
Wheres my random.
"Because the subway like the library, and the police and tyhe fire dept, are PUBLIC SERVICES, and as such are not run solely to generate profit in dollars,"
I don't disagree to this point. However, since the lion's share of the operating expenses are paid for through subsidy, the middle class pay a higher percentage than do the poor. If you then have a fare structure that favors the poor at the expense of the middle class, then you are penalizing that group twice.
As for our differing views on economics and politics being hopeless, don't look at it that way. You can always get a rap on the back of the head and wake up - thinking normally. Until then, I'd 86 the being a socialist. Your team isn't doing too well in the world economy.
See, I think you are missing the point. Indeed the middle class (if you can guage who they are)are being screwed. But that is because the Republicans gave away the store to the seriously rich. Moynihan pointed out some years back, that the irs deductions had gone down for what he referred to as middle class taxpayers, BUT the soc. sec. contrib had eaten up and surpassed that drop. This tax however tops out in 'middle class' salaries and the super rich do not pay on any of their earnings above $75 k. As to socialism being on hee losing end YOU are employed by a socialist enterprise--hooray. I just want more of the same. more punlic transit (NO SUVs), and as to free market competitive capitalism repeat after me Flixible, McDonnel Douglas, ALCO, St Louis Car, Budd, Pullman-Standard.
If that same poor person did not cash his check at check casher maybe he would be able to scape up the extra money for the unlimited ride card
All the person would need to do is sacrifise a bit more for a few weeks to buy the new card for the first month. Once the first card is bought. the poor person gets tremedous savings.
Some poor people are poor because they did not have the opurtunity to acuire skills needed to suceed in our society
Some people are poor because they make poor decisions(party in scholl instead of studing, Doin gdrugs instead of eating thier spinage) in life and don't sacrifise and save a dolar today so they can make money with that dollar tommorow
Thier is an old saying.
Rich people are the cheapest people out thier. They are rich because they dave thier money
What I fail to understand is that if one does not have the ability to earn enough of a living to live a comfortable life in NYC why don ththey move to a place where housing and lliving expensise are cheaper.
If my family did not make the prudent decison to buy a house vs renting, I would be living in NJ communting int o nyc to take advantage of the lower cost of living.
FYI my father worked three jobs to earn enough for the down payment on our house. Lived with black and white TV and did without many extra's that many poor people in this city see as rights (fancy designer clothes, etc) It makes me sick to see people buying food with food stamps wearing designer clothes.
>>> It makes me sick to see people buying food with food stamps wearing designer clothes. <<<
That would be a very unusual sight, unless the clothing was purchased from a thrift store.
Tom
EXACTLY, "liberal" math teaches that $1.50 is a larger percentage of net income for the welfare recipient, and to use your example , so small as to fall through the cracks in the accounting for 'Trump'.
The classic understanding of standard of living has rested on the number of hours of work required to purchase a given product at a fixed price. Obviously, 'Trump' can afford to own more Harleys than you even if the prices are the same.
Now, the point is how much of your monthly income goes for transport (assume you buy transport on MTA LIRR and NYCT, which I hope you are given as job benefits).
ANY fixed price item or fixed percentage tax ("regressive") such as sales taxes are inherently a larger percentage of total spending by lower income persons--thus the prices are "higher" from their standpoint.
My example was illustrating the point that a poor person lacks the basic capital to make purchases that will save them/make them money. They cannot afford a monthly metrocard as they do not have $120 or so lying around at any one time. They can however scratch up the $3-$5 on a daily basis for their transit needs. In the end those least able to afford it wind up paying more. There is a sililar story w/ health insurance. Most insurance plans have a set amount they pay for a given service. Most hospitals charge more than that set amount, but they will usually accept that set payment from the insurance as payment in full. However those w/ no insurance get charged the full amount. Poor people generally tend to not have health insurance so poor people are charged more for medical care than those who can afford insurance. It simply boggles the mind.
can you spell capitalism?
You are quite correct about the inability to 'inveat' in a monthy pass. In turn, it is usually the poor who are 'forced' to ride during rush rather than the suits who can stroll in after the cattlre car time. Flex time is rarely offered for retail clerks, counter workers etc.
OTOH if you afford a pass, then the non work commute usage is essentially free--encouraging other economic activity.
The problem with budget balancing (a fraud of bookeeping in many cases) is the scranble to cut "expenses" exactly when pimp priming is most needed to keep the 'water' flowing. If maintenance is cut back, the image of a functional subway will again sink which inevitably wikll shrink 'discretionary' ridership--the very riders most ncessary to the political mix.
Poorer people should be exampt from sales tax using a "smart" card technology.
NO. sales taxes should drop and income tax percentages shopuld rise in upper bracklets. The point is to tax the persons who have most resources to pay for the general needs. In turn the ultimate need is to standardize the tax rates accross the board and force the spending by population so that the states stop the destructive tax giveaway competition, and the stealing of funds by the edge cities stop.
(NO. sales taxes should drop and income tax percentages shopuld rise in upper bracklets.)
Given up on that dream. I'm now more into eliminating decent public schools in the suburbs -- since city children don't get them and I have to pay for my own. And eliminating social security and Medicare, since people my age won't get them. The state and local tax savings would allow paying a higher fare and saving the Second Avenue Subway as well.
New York liberals have reached an interesting compromise. There is no big government in NYC, just big government elsewhere and for others that we still pay taxes for. Myself and my neighbors get little or nothing. The working poor get even less -- at least our local park is in good shape -- due to charitible contributions by me and others.
A ride on my carbody: two bucks before wiping shoes. CI Peter
Difference is poor people don't have a choice, they can't afford cars like middle and upper classes.
Oh, is that a fact. Perhaps you can explain why some of the folks using foodstamps at my local Shoprite dress better than I do, wear more jewlery than my wife and in many cases drive a better car than I do.
Lest this degerate into another political/non-transit related thread, let me ask you this, John. If you are correct, why is it the subway system that should balance the scales. Why shouldn't the food stores give lower prices to the poor or the gasoline companies. Why shouldn't sears sell cloths cheaper to the poor or let's go att the way, why can't I buy a Gulf Stream for an amount that would be proportional to Bill Gates income as compared to mine?
Local Shloprite??? TD doesn't live in Manhattan!!! Fooostamps??? Dey be got better cellphones!!! What we have here in NYC is an unwritten cash standard of living. With few exceptions (Balduccis for one,) we all have to pay the same price for everything irregardless of standing or income. Buck fifty a ride is a bargain, even if top speed cranks below 40 mph. CI Peter
No, I don't live in Manhattan. I'm tied by the mortgage to Whitelandia. BTW: That gentleman from Concourse Shop, walking through 239th St. on Friday was not me.
East Stroudsberg, Pa. is a bargain to live in.....got Walmart Supercenter, ShopRite and Bargain Outlet and lots of NYC ethnics that fled Whitelandia NYC. If you ever do prance up to 239th, just pick up the blower and call OnTheJuice. One thing for sure: you'll get a lot of attention from the 'in de horne' guys. Just keep an eye out for open covers on my R142s....CI Peter
Qtraindash7: the 'poor people' drive brand new cars and have everything thanks to leasing and credit cards...they can manage without subway rides. The 'working poor' make the best of the Lords Gifts...traveling long hours on the subway or paying in cash for everything until the money runs out. I own my 1995 Olds..paid in cash...and i cannot physically afford the long trip to my yard by subway. An increase is needed...the wealthy who take the IRT just a few stops will feel no pain. CI Peter
Fares are high enough as it is. Would you prefer people to drive? The more people have to pay for transport the less they have to spend on other things, the less they leave their place of residence and thusly the less that goes into the city's economy and the less tax revenue that is collected. The more you jack up the cost of living in the City the more people will flee to sensible places like New Jersey.
For my wife to take mass transit to work costs a whopping $3.00/day. To drive would take her longer and cost her more, not to mention adding another car to the already existing traffic mess. Why would she change if the fare went up?
>>>...the more people will flee to sensible places like New Jersey. <<
The state with one of the highest mass transit fare structures in the nation. Soon to be even higher.
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean ... he doesn't know? Should us Noo Yawkahs tell him what Noo Yawkahs think of Joisey? Nah. What's really funny is upstate near Smallbany and north, all the BAD stuff is on the Manhattan side of the Hudson river and the Joisey side is *civilized* ... well ... sorta. heh.
upstate near Smallbany and north, all the BAD stuff is on the Manhattan side of the Hudson river and the Joisey side is *civilized* ... well ... sorta.
Maybe near Albany, but get down into the northern Catskills and the west bank is generally poorer than the east side. Compare Greene County to, say, Columbia County. (Greene County is a MESS.)
Mandatory transit-related content: Naked plug for the Ulster & Delaware Railroad Historic Society website. Visit it!
I've done the "train robbery" many times, years ago - used to live in Zoo Paltz and Rosendale and would make it up to Arkville every now and then to ride the flatcar behind the might Alco. :)
And yes, for anyone who's never had the pleasure, it's STILL highly recommended! (only wish it could be extended down past the Kingston traffic circle and down to the Strand) Howdy, neighbor!
Whoops ... before anyone thinks I'm PANNING the DURR, the "train robbery" thing was this elaborately THEMED theatrical thing where the "train" would be "robbed" wild west style. The Delaware and Ulster Rail Ride was well known for making it more than just a "grab a seat and ride slow" along the creek ... they made it AMUSING. And I've always been a patsy for "amusing" and that's what kept bringing me back. It's a WONDERFUL way to spend the tourista season and one ride ain't enough.
Now how's that for "I heart NY" not even associated with the state anymore? :)
(only wish it could be extended down past the Kingston traffic circle and down to the Strand) Howdy, neighbor!
Actually part of the ROW was built over in the early '80s by some office building, part of an economic redevelopment plan for Kingston. It now has a state agency in it.
The Catskill Mountain RR (the other, shorter tourist line east of Phoenicia) has gotten funding to put back the level crossing into Route 28 and connect to a couple more miles of ROW eastward. The state DOT has been ... uhhhh ... less than cooperative, most recently requiring them to do an entire study of all DOT-related issues along the entire rail line (or something like that). They obviously don't want a new level crossing on a 55 mph main artery (understandable from their POV, I s'pose.)
There's also money committed by a supportive county legislator to restore some additional ROW even further east. The sticking point at the moment is the washed-out bridge connecting those two pieces, which would take most of a million dollars to reinstate. They're working (slowly) on that funding.
I can provide more info if (and only if) you're interested, but we should probably do it off-board.
Glad to hear of further extension actually ... I remember a much shorter DURR, although at least a CABOOSE got planted at the traffic circle - to bring this along JUST a little bit further in context of Subtalk since it's a nice train ride and all, folks from down south (after all, given where I am, Ulster county *is* considered "downstate" from here as is Catskill and Hudson) would REALLY get off on the DURR for a daytrip or longer - it's a MAGNIFICENT and VERY PRETTY route along the creek - nothing pleases me more than knowing that it's STILL surviving ...
What would be ABSOLUTE coolness on a stick though would be some means of interchanging folks with the Kingston Trolley Museum so BOTH operations would be able to compliment each other from a tourism standpoint. When I lived down there, did both although at the time, the Kingston Trolley Museum was a "hurting buckaroo" aside from what was right there on the Strand downtown near the Hudson. Glad Mo Hinchey got to Congress ... not that being in the minority party did much good recently. There's another guy who could do wonders if only they'd listen to him.
That all said, any train fan would LOVE the DURR and sorry for plugging it myself, but I always loved that choochoo. Up north of us in Washington county is another excursion run that's pretty nice as well - the BATTENKILL ... but DURR is more easily accessible for folks from the city. After season, got to play with the nice little Alco under some supervision on the DURR and there's a nicely restored RS3 on the Battenkill as well.
And the state stepping on anybody's fun is certainly not news. That's why I quit the PSC myself. And also why upstate is an economic disaster except for the bedroom communities where staties live. I shut up now, but THANKS for bringing out a fond memory that I *highly* endorse!
Damn ... other side trip ... this is ROUTE 28 we're talking about, not exactly the THRUWAY ... AND, after all, we're not talking about slow one mile long freights either. The only issue I would see is proper grade crossing equipment (which can get MIGHTY expensive, especially to ensure that the relays ALWAYS pull in when required and if they stick in the "close it down" position, that there's someone who lives withing a mile to go and kick it) ... An amazingly stupid impediment but then who am I to question the Warlords of DOT? Give a political subdivision ghod-like powers and they WILL abuse it.
As to the state building, why no problem ... you tell ME who would win? A locomotive or a pithy little building? :)
Like, NO.
NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ... this is an ELECTION year for both DC and our Paturkey ... politicians NEVER raise taxes when facing an election, and fare hikes are considered "taxes" by politicians and their advisors. *CUTS* however are "sexy" in an election year and I've already SEEN bits of the governor's budget message and some of the visual aids being prepared for "budget school" for the press next week. Let's just say "OUCH!" since the feds screwed us ...
(*CUTS* however are "sexy" in an election year and I've already SEEN bits of the governor's budget message and some of the visual aids
being prepared for "budget school" for the press next week.)
My prediction is that the state would cover 100 percent of its deficit by cutting off school aid to NYC. They would be a little asterisk by the zero for NYC school aid, saying the feds would pay as part of disaster relief. When such relief didn't arrive, NYC public schools would disappear. And no one with power would care.
I am telling you NYC State is the way to go.
Knowing the TA, more money will be spent (capital, of course)
in implementing demand pricing that will actually be recovered!
The fare increase will have to come soon, it's just a matter
of a few months vs a year or two. I don't mind, but I'd also
like to see an increase in motor vehicle registration fees,
especially for higher weight vehicles.
They'll wait for the next union contract after 12/15/02 to raise the fare and blame it on TWU!
(They'll wait for the next union contract after 12/15/02 to raise the fare and blame it on TWU!)
The TWU is to blame, sort of. The question is what is fair, for riders vs. transit workers. If other workers are getting raises, the TWU deserves them as well, and it that case, they can afford to pay a fare increase.
At this point, other workers aren't getting raises, but we need a fare increase just to catch up.
I didn't receive much of raises in twenty one years of employment in private industry, just 'pep talks.' I left with nothing but what i had earned...i have no sympathy for TWU balkers. Any halfway decent union will get something for their members, period. That is the problem between us newbies with years of experience outside and the oldtimers we have to work with.....we want the work and are willing to do any assignment and WILL report for duty after we finish. TA is going to have massive deficit problems with the aquisition of 'new tech' trainsets and the public will balk over an increase in fares....gasoline is still a bargain!!! CI Peter
When they abandon that ridiculous idea for building new stadiums for the rich, drug addict baseball players, I'll take a fare increase. You know what makes me laugh? The Second Avenue line has been on hold for 60 years, yet we can find money for nonsense. We have 2 stadiums that are fine. Also, as a tax payer and a non baseball fan, I don't want my taxes going into the greasy, fat pockets of Steinbrener. Guiliani almost got everything perfect. On his last day, he screwed up my opinion of him. Still the best mayor ever, but the baseball obsession has to go.
If the teams want to cry a river and leave town cuz they can't get new stadiums, well that's fine by me. the land shea stadium is on would make a fine intermodal yard for NY&A or expanded corona 7 yard...
There is an entire website devoted to the scams that sports franchises use to hoodwink politicians and voters:
Field of Schemes
The ideas for New York aren't the most outrageous examples. Stadium projects in St. Louis, Oakland and Denver give new meaning to the concept of "chtuzpah".
Well Los Angeles is not one of those dumb ass towns that fall for this crap. The Rams and Raiders didn't get a new stadium, and the expansion team in Texas would have been awarded to us if we built them a stadium. The result: We don't have our own professional football team. Significance? Who gives a rat's ass. Every Sunday, we get games all day, good games. Before we got blacked out. We can do without the NFL, and if they can do without us, fine. If some of our half-ass politicos decide to cater to some millionaire owner and decide to build a stadium with our money and without our permission, we will run their asses out of town. That is how it is supposed to be done. You want a stadium? You build it.
Fred...I don't always agree with your posts...but on this one....
...BRAVO!!!!
Good to know I pass muster with you on this one. Good God, these guys are muilti-millionaires to begin with. And then they have the nerve to want the tax payer to foot the bill for their own greed.
Not only was LA willing to give up the NFL rather than give in, it stayed out of subdizing the NBA and NHL. Result? They all got together on a single building they paid for themselves. Meanwhile, the Mets and Yankees want their own stadium with the City paying for half of each. Why not one stadium in LIC, with the teams paying for the whole thing?
San Francisco also stood up to the pressure. The result? The Giants built their own stadium with their own money.
>>That is how it is supposed to be done. You want a stadium? You build it.<<
That's pretty much how I feel. If a new Yankees and Mets stadium should be built, let the owners do it with some outside partnership.
LEAVE THE TAXPAYER OUT OF THIS !!
While private building and ownership of the stadiums now create taxes, there is a problem with the City employees either losing their jobs or losing their retirement benefits if a private owner hires them because of a management change. But isn't this a seasonal thing too ?
Bill "Newkirk"
RIGHT ON,FRED!!!
you hate that baseball, hey I saw your sporting skills when you punted that hobo ball at the SBK layup
HA! you obviously have not seem my mighty kung fu! my kung fu is unstoppable! wwwwoooo-wah wah wah wah!!
Don't say that. People like to joke about this issue, but it's no laughing matter.
The economic impact of our local sports franchises is strong. The money that the city is talking about spending on these new stadiums is not an expense as much as an investment.
But all you anti-progress people out there who are against the proposed stadiums have nothing to worry about. All the talk about new stadiums is just that. Talk. The Mets and Yankees are not getting new stadiums anytime soon.
While New Yorkers moan and groan about why the city should not partner with the Yankees and Mets on new stadiums, take a look at what the modern world is doing:
San Francisco 3COM Park
San Diego Qualcomm Stadium
Denver New Mile High
Tampa Tropicana Field and Houlihans Stadium
Atlanta Georgia Dome and Turner Field
Baltimore Camden Yards
Detroit Tiger Stadium
St. Louis TWA Dome
Cleveland Browns Stadium
Pittsburgh Heinz Stadium
and others.......................
While New Yorkers try to find reasons to continue living in the dark ages, other cities progress.
>>> The money that the city is talking about spending on these new stadiums is not an expense as much as an investment. <<<
That was said in L.A. at the time certain civic boosters were trying to get the city to pay for a new stadium, with talk about the jobs and money that would be brought to the city. In fact, it seemed like a way to transfer public funds to a limited number of private businesses in the immediate area of the proposed stadium. The counter argument was that the same amount of money would be better spent building new schools and improving the existing ones as a benefit to the whole city. Naturally when the stadium was rejected, no money was spent on schools either.
Tom
We're all looking at how much money New York wants to spend on these new stadiums, and using that amount to shoot down the idea saying we can't afford it, or the money should be used for new/improved schools.
Has anyone considered how much money the city would lose if we were to lose even one Major League Baseball team? And how those lost revenues would impact our local economy?
Last comment on this ... forget the stadiums ... not going to happen. No money ... Governor's budget address and "budget school" for the media at the end of the week. New York is about to do an Enron ...
Has anyone considered how much money the city would lose if we were to lose even one Major League Baseball team? And how those lost revenues would impact our local economy?
Yeah, a study's been done on the economic impact of stadiums in general. See my earlier post.
I saw your post. It said nothing. Simply speculated that cities don't benefit from the construction of a new stadium. You babble about janitors, and peanut vendors, without looking at the entire economic picture.
You are obviously swayed by the propaganda that the sports franchises love to spread: that a new stadium creates a positive economic impact on a city.
What JV wrote IS NOT babble. Most of the jobs generated by major sports franchises ARE low-paying, part time jobs.
So tell us about this "big picture". How DOES a major sports franchise benefit a city in a positive financial way? Lets see some numbers.
As far as the NEGATIVE financial impact of new stadiums is concerned, there is much documentation on the subject. Some cities issue bonds (which must be repaid with interest, screwing future generations). Other cities raise their sales taxes, which negatively impacts consumers in general. Most stadiums leases are "sweetheart deals" with the cities they're in, with the lion's share of the revenue going straight into the pockets of the franchise owners. And these snake-oil salesmen get to keep ALL of the luxury box fees, which is one of the reasons they want these amenities so much. Even the property taxes are often lowered or waived.
Suppose some large corporation, say Ford or Westinghouse, came to city and said, "We want to build a factory here. We want the city to donate the land and build the factory for us." How do you think the electorate of most cities would react? They'd scream "CORPORATE WELFARE!!". This, despite the fact that the factory would provide full-time jobs for a lot of people. But then again, nobody goes around waving banners of Ford Tauruses, or wears baseball caps with pictures of Westinghouse refrigerators. People become blinded by their emotional attachment to sports teams, and exaggerate their importance to a city.
We're smarter here in Los Angeles. First the Rams, then the Raiders, then the Rams again demanded new stadiums at great public expense. The public refused to go along. They moved. The impact on Los Angeles?
Nil.
No negative financial impact, save for a bar and grill that closed next to the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Even the die-hard football fans aren't complaining.
We also stopped a group of politicians from making a back-room deal to publicly finance Staples Center, new home of the Lakers, Clippers, and Kings. Although some public money was spent (mainly for infrastructure improvements OUTSIDE of Staples Center) the owners of these teams bit the bullet and built it themselves, and aren't exactly starving as a result.
Recently, the owners of the Dodgers (News Corp.) floated an idea around that the Dodgers "needed" a new state-of-the-art stadium in Downtown L.A. Nobody bought that nonsense, and the idea died quickly.
I posted this link in a previous post, and I suggest you read it.
Field Of Schemes
Suppose some large corporation, say Ford or Westinghouse, came to city and said
I would REALLY be surprised if Westinghouse came to the city wanting to build a factory. More surprised than I'd be if Gimbels wanted to build a store in the city.
How does a local sports franchise or sports facility impact a local economy?
Let's look at the New York Mets.
The NY Mets drew 2,600,000 in 2001. They would've done 3,000,000 but 9/11 undoubtedly hurt attendance a bit towards the end of the season.
Many of those fans take the subway to the games. Others arrive by car. Either way, the city receives revenue(parking revs and Metrocard revs)from those fans. Some may even cross a bridge or use a tunnel, increasing revenues at toll boths. When they buy a ticket to see the game, the city receives a percentage of ticket sales(last I heard it was 5%). If the World Series comes to town, people come from all over the world to attend the games. Media and fans alike, have to eat(keeping the hotel and restaurant industries busy), take a train or cab to the game(keeping T/O's and taxi drivers happy), and arrive by airplane, keeping airport personnel busy. Additionally, those who travel to NY to are taxed by the airlines, a portion of which goes to the city(it's called an airport tax).
If you still don't think that NY can recoup every penny invested in a new Shea Stadium, with an annual attendance of 2,600,000(and you can bet attendance would be much higher at a new stadium), over the projected life of the stadium(25 years), then I guess we'll never agree on this issue.
There is definitely a major economic benefit to a stadium. There is also a major cost. The return on investment is not obvious until you do a lot of number crunching.
Others have crunched those numbers in New York and elsewhere and the reports in the newspapers, which you can choose to believe or not believe, are that the return on investment is usually very poor and specifically is very poor in New York.
The return on investment may be poor, but it's still there. No weigh that against the economic impact of losing the New York Mets, and it's an easy decision for New York to make. Let's hope they make the right one.
And where exactly are they going to move to? Jersey is in the same financial shape as NY [ask the folks lobbying for that monstrosity in downtown Newark..or paying higher fares on NJT]...Nassau is bankrupt......Lupica in the News is absolutely correct-the only competion for Steinbrenner or Doubleday is NONE.....and they manged to hornswoggle Rudy 'Pinstripes in My Eyes' Guiliani into this mess...GREAT taste to leave in NY's mouth Rudy!
I have a better idea. One or both teams should leave New York for a city willing to make the necessary investments needed to lure a major league team.
Maybe New York can't afford to build a new stadiums for the local teams. But we surely can't afford to let either team leave.
The two NYC based baseball teams are the most profitable MLB franchises. STOP SPORTS TERRORISM, When a team is sold it should be sold to it's host city. (works well in Green Bay)
There is an economic impact to every kind of business, does that mean that the government has to go on subsidizing all of them? Why are professional sports any exception? They are more profitable than many other industries.
The government shouldn't spend money on anything that has no public benefit. Professional sports have no benefit to the masses apart from anything economic they may bring. Business can function on their own, with some regulations to protect consumers, but a team doesn't provide something for an individual that they can't live without (like TRANSPORTATION).
""They are more profitable than many other industries.""
Are they???????????????????
Just for your information, local municipalities have owned arenas and stadiums since the beginning of modern sports. But just to make everyone happy, I hope the Mets and Yankees both leave NY, to end this debate once and for all.
And go WHERE?
NEW JERSEY
Washington
Charlotte
New Orleans
San Antonio
Memphis
Nashville
or any city willing to do business like professionals.
or any city willing to do business like professionals.
Let them. I'd rather the taxpayers of all these second-rate cities (and New Orleans) pay the salaries of millionaires. Maybe then our city would have more money left for children and the needy.
Right On Americano Pork. Steinbrenner has oodles of money and a hell of a cable tv deal to boot. He can build his own stadium. If he really wants to do something worthwhile, he could build his stadium on the grounds of present day Yankee Stadium or nearby, and then help do his part to revitalize the area. But he won't do that because he is a greedy bastard. And the Mets owners are no better. Let them build their own stadium. They have the money. I'm told New York schools are in sad shape, and that means a lot of children of moderate to sub-par economic means are being swindled out of the possibilities of a good education. And we can certainly do something to refurbish some of our subway lines that need it. ( Guess one of them) Some citizens are naive enough to go along with these swindlers. I hope my brother New Yorkers have more sense than that.
Fred, your compassionate conservativeness is showing. The Yankees are the most profitable team in baseball and the Mets are not far beyond. a baseball team in this market should have no problem raising private cash to build a new stadium. welfare money should go to the needy, not the greedy. Besides, how are we going to have a tax cut if we give it all to $teinbrenner.
John: It seems to easy to both of us. The question is when are those voracious owners going to get religion and realize people are hard at work trying to keep their heads above water. Are some of these rich bastards so callous that they can't see the forest from the trees? It would appear so, wouldn't it.
So long as there's a sucker city around willing to give the various owners what they want (see the stories about New Orleans Hornets on Thursday's sports pages for the latest example), this stuff will keep up.
If Steinbrenner, Wilpon or whoever wants to do what the San Francisco Giants did and build their own stadium, I have far less of a problem with the city, state and/or federal government picking up the cost of surrounding mass transit and highway improvments. But they're not and even if Groege and Fred continue to play in their current parks because they "can't afford" to build the stadiums themselves, neither team is going to be down with the Expos and the Twins in terms of income or payroll anytime soon.
>> . Let them build their own stadium. They have the money. I'm told New York schools are in sad shape, and that means a lot of children of moderate to sub-par economic means are being swindled out of the possibilities of a good education. <<<
I wonder if Fred would change his tune if the Dodgers announced that they would return to Brooklyn provided the City would build them a new stadium somewhere near the Sea Beach Line (which would have to be refurbished with express service to the new stadium). :-)
Tom
Old Tom: You are a dirty rat. You hit my right where I live. I do wonder if I would change my tune. Strange since we have the Dodgers out here and I despise them. No, you can never go back. Thinking seriously about it, I would not support such a propsoal. My 34-plus teachers as a teacher has made me very compassionate where children are concerned and too many of them today are being sacrificed for the greed of the rich. The Dodgers of Brooklyn were my childhood love, and that is past and can never be returned. Now maybe we could put some of the money towards refurbishing the Sea Beach line, making it an express both in Manhattan and Brooklyn (even if that meant having to build couple of express stations, and running it over the Manny B in perpetuity. But you hit me right in my gut and I owe you one in retaliation. Be aware.
Be afraid, Tom, be VERY AFRAID :-)
Yeah, Fred will resurrect a train of Triplexes that will seek out and crush all opposition.:-)
I hope the Mets and Yankees both leave NY, to end this debate once and for all.
So do I. Lets see how well they do in another city.
I hope you'd like to know that the team which lost the most money in 2001 was the Los Angeles Dodgers. Hope those bastards are happy now.
Pro-sports are nothing but an opiate for the masses, like bread and circuses in ancient Rome. They serve no practical purpose for society apart from robbing people's money, which they do more and more as the years go by.
BTW, most of a parasite's sports team's profits come from television, not ticket sales. In that case, they can be anywhere in the world
(I hope the Mets and Yankees both leave NY, to end this debate once and for all.)
I was hoping New Jersey would end up paying for the stadiums. They aren't that stupid.
I love baseball. It has long been my favorite sport. But something is amiss somewhere. Millionaire owners want to have stadiums built for them so they can get the money from tax paying citizens in order to pay outlandish salaries to spoiled athletes. The salaries I can live with but not if the people have to foot the bill. Let those greedy bastard owners pay for the ballfields. The money New Yorkers would have to put out for it could be better used to improve the subways, schools, and infrastructure. Doesn't that at least make some sense to you guys?
I hope the Mets and Yankees both leave NY, to end this debate once and for all.
And if government still insists on giving them a handout, I know the perfect one: as long as the team pays for the stadium, the TA can give them the land. I know this nice spot just off the Delaware coast by the name of Redbird Island... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You forgot about the gaseoline tax that both the city and state collect. Something like .05-.25 a gallon
Here is an interesting point: between New York and New Jersey, the highest wholesale price for gasoline belongs to NJ.....NY is cheaper but has much more tacked on taxes.
>>> Many of those fans take the subway to the games. Others arrive by car. Either way, the city receives revenue(parking revs and Metrocard revs)from those fans. Some may even cross a bridge or use a tunnel, increasing revenues at toll boths. <<<
Looking at the money spent by New Yorkers to attend games is not a net gain to the economy. If the teams were not here, they would spend the money elsewhere in the city, going to movies, or bowling, or sitting in bars watching sports on TV. The money would still circulate. The direct revenue to the city from increased subway fares and parking is somewhat offset by the increased expense of providing additional subway service and police services due to the crowds and increased traffic in the area.
To the extent that sports teams bring in people from out of town, i.e. the visiting team's fans, there is a gain to the New York economy, but it is mainly restaurants and hotels that benefit. The same gain to the economy could be obtained with a far smaller expenditure to whomever promotes tourism to New York.
>>> If you still don't think that NY can recoup every penny invested in a new Shea Stadium, with an annual attendance of 2,600,000(and you can bet attendance would be much higher at a new stadium), over the projected life of the stadium(25 years), <<<
If it were reasonably sure there was a reasonable rate of return on the investment, there would be private money from insurance companies and pension funds coming forward to build the new stadiums. They are not doing so, so the recoupment of the investment is far from a sure thing. Any money spent building the stadium cannot be used for other things like digging a Second Avenue subway.
Tom
While New Yorkers try to find reasons to continue living in the dark ages, other cities progress.
Ha! I can't give you a source, but a study was done in the past couple of years that compared municipal investments in stadiums to other types of economic development. It found that stadiums generated fewer jobs, less tax revenue and overall were a lousy investment for almost every city surveyed.
Yeah, the construction generates short-term benefits. But after that, how many jobs do you really get? A handful of ticket sellers and pretzel vendors, bartenders in the skyboxes and a bunch of minimum-wage janitorial jobs.
More than that ... it's not like these teams are destitute. Same could be said for the NYSE, too, but that's another off-topic thread.
AMEN. Baasaball hasn't been berry berry good fo me. We used to have NFL football, didn't we?? Wasn't the teams names 'NY Giants' and NY Jets?' Lets build some more monuments to decadence. Lets waste some more money that governmental administration will not use to build new housing for the middle class who maintains the operations of big business and its machinery. Frankly, the wealthy who choose not to reside here won't get a faster ride in the near future. Reality will be 'Omega Man' and 'Escape from New York.' CI Peter
Can't we please keep to rail topics? Can't we see rail subjects on the home page? Stadium chat belongs in a chat room of your ISP. At the top ot the page, Dave asks us "....but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only...." The only thing a stadium, new or old, has to do with transit is people use transit to get there, jsut like any other place people go to.
>> When they abandon that ridiculous idea for building new stadiums for the rich, drug addict baseball players, I'll take a fare increase. <<
Oh, I'd love to find a way to hold their feet to the fire-- but without a fare increase it's just too easy for them to claim poverty and then stick to routine maintenance or less. Give them the money and then demand that it be used properly and not wastefully. If they squander it, "throw da bums out!"
How about creating fare times. At a ceratin time the fare increases or decreases.
Rush hour:$2.00
Middays and Avenings:$1.50
Nights and Weekends:$1.00
Disasters(man made):free
A fare increase is the last thing my wallet needs, but...it beats the alternatives. I'd much rather see a fare increase than cuts in service or in expansion plans. I'm also not too excited about the prospect of using zone fares or anything more complicated than what is already in place for the subway.
One idea I do have, though, is to perhaps offer "single ticket" plans for multiple-mode MTA rides. For instance you could buy a ticket at Hicksville for Mount Kisco, and it would include both LIRR and Metro-North serivice, as well as a Metrocard magnetic stripe for the subway between Penn and Grand Central. Or a trip from Hicksville to Brighton Beach on the (Q) which includes both the LIRR and NYCT. Or it could even involve LI Bus (why not if it inlcudes a magnetic stripe.) This might be discounted from the cost of the services bought serpately, which would mean a loss of fares, BUT remember: A) If noone uses it, you lose nothing. B) If a lot of people use it, then it might mean that the increase in ridership would more than make up for it.
:-) Andrew
Nobody likes a fare increase. I don't know the intimate details of the TA's budget, but if an increase is REALLY neeeded, finanical chcanery to avoid doesn't do anyone any good. Remember the 70s, anyone?
That said, I'd bet there are plenty of inefficencies (can anyone say Vice Presidents?) that could be eliminated before a far hike could be justified.
What really needs to be done is to improve the effeciencies of the system
Speed the clossing of unnecessary token boths. For instance why does a station on the LEX need two 24 hour token booths.
Move to 1/2 trains with advanced opto(wireless cams on all doors so that the TO does not need to leave his driving position) Overnights on all lines. The extra crowding on the 1/2 trains can be aliviated by running one additioal trainset per hour.
Reduce adminsrative expenses - Combine mangement of NYCT, MNCR and LIRR. No need for three sets of upper mangement, Human Reasourses and payroll
(What really needs to be done is to improve the effeciencies of the system)
Nothing wrong with that, and it's been happening slowly. But the fare must rise also.
I don't think folks will need to worry about that happening - more details are emerging of what's to come and in an election year, Paturkey is planning to SOCK it to upstate and downstate both with LOTS of new taxes and fees in an election year. Put a fork in the boy, he's pulling a CUOMO ... and here we heard all this "don't worry folks, the Shrub will take care of New York" ... looks like reality hit the ventilator shaft ...
State of the State address at noon tomorrow, budget school next week. THEN we get to tally up the check ... and from what I'm hearing, it's going to be huge ... lots of cutbacks, lots of layoffs and new taxes while Enron gets a fresh cut of "stimulus" ...
I agree with your basic point.
Here's what I'd propose:
The basic peak fare is $2.00, in effect weekdays (except major holidays) 6:00am-9:30am and 3:00pm-6:30pm. An off-peak discount of 25 cents is automatically given at all other times. (Actually, to avoid large crowds by the turnstiles approaching 9:30am and 6:30pm and rushes to enter by 6:00am and 3:00pm, the peak fare would "ramp up" from 6:00am to 6:25am and from 3:00pm to 3:25pm and "ramp down" from 9:05am to 9:30am and from 6:05pm to 6:30pm, one penny per minute.) The fare paid is based on initial boarding time; if I board at 2:55pm and transfer at 5:00pm, I only pay $1.75 total. (Yes, that means it sometimes pays to dip your card on a bus and walk right off.) Express buses charge double the local bus and subway fare: $4.00 peak, $3.50 off-peak.
The bulk bonus is raised to 15% but is only available for purchases of $20 or more and is not available at the token booth. Thus the actual cost per ride to an off-peak rider who qualifies for the bonus is only $1.52.
With the new fare structure come a new unlimited card system, with each type of card available in two versions, one valid at all times and one valid for the off-peak fare only:
Fun Pass off-peak: $4.50
Fun Pass peak: $5.00
7-day unlimited off-peak: $19.00
7-day unlimited peak: $21.50
30-day unlimited off-peak: $70.00
30-day unlimited peak: $78.00
30-day unlimited express bus off-peak: $135.00
30-day unlimited express bus peak: $155.00
Now, for the exciting part: A swipe of an off-peak unlimited card (subject to the usual 18-minute lockout, etc.) is worth $1.75 (up to the cost of a fare); for peak or express bus usage, this can be supplemented with a pay-per-ride MetroCard or (on the bus) in cash to make up a full fare. Similarly for each of the other cards. If you have an unlimited off-peak card, you can still make an occasional peak ride by paying the step-up fee. If you have a 30-day unlimited but one day plan to ride the express bus a few times, you can supplement it with a standard Fun Pass (each card yields $1.75 or $2.00 per swipe).
No tokens. If that leads to complaints, then continue to sell the current tokens at $1.50 apiece, with two tokens required to release the turnstile. Sorry, there's just no point in minting new tokens, and there's no reason for the TA to take a loss on all the tokens currently in circulation.
The only real shortcoming I see here is the confusion that would result if this were implemented. A fare increase is, unfortunately, necessary.
Ain't gonna work fairly because of skeds. TA won't implement SEPTA in/out turnstiles and TA debit cards will never be created. The working poor don't all travel off-peak hours. Only answer is to have fare raised to two bucks. The fare increase will never answer faster service because our trackage doesn't go in a straight line.
>>> TA debit cards will never be created <<<
Don't look now, but the current MetroCards are TA debit cards.
Tom
My plan doesn't require exit swipes -- the fare is based on time of entry.
My plan also doesn't depend on wealth. Rush hour commuters are a greater burden on the system than off-peak commuters, so they should pay more. I don't care who's rich and who's poor.
Maybe that is the problem...who is rich and who is poor. A quick 'jack' from 86th to 59th is far cheaper and faster than a bus or cab. Our subway is a subsidised mode of transport....it benifits the poor and working classes as a means of reliable but slow mode of transport. The affluent from the outer boroughs take express busses...the poor must endure the long but safe ride. CI Peter
The so called "AFFLUENT FROM THE OUTER BORO"S" are acutual hard working middle class people. People who see it better use of thier money to buy their children a book or computer and put food on the table then buy designer clothes. The truely affluent don't ride mass transit. Most people who take express buses due so because subway service in thier area is sub par. A large part of express bus customer are a mothers working to earn a secound house hold income as a secretary or some other adminstrative job in order to help pay the mortgage on the family home and maybe save up enough to take thier children on vacation once a year
EX: are parts of bensonhurst/dyker hierts/bay ridge/ staten island.
IF subway prices were reaised to that of cab fair people would not take a bus or subway. Why put up with the hasel of hot stations and rude transit employees.
Quit frankly most trasit employees make more than so called "AFFLUENT FROM THE OUTER BORO"S"
Hey: twenty five years in private industry working for cheap ass weasels so why shouldn't I make the same money as the 'spray n wipers' of TA. No qualms here about middle class working people. You don't see the affluent on the subway bitching cuz their wireless phones don't work or their fancy clothes get mussed. Truly a humbling experience traveling on MY R142 #2 trainsets at six in the morning.
On my Car Equipment Department logo (remember my posting from OSOTT) is the 'twin towers.' It reminds me of the Lords Grace to be where I'm at. I work hard each and every day. My mother worked hard and saved to take me on vacation every year. Nuff said. CI Peter
Hey if I dont where the fancy suit ( aka the UNIFORM at finacial companies) to work I would be quietly showed the door by the harvard educated prix making $100 k a year. That fancy suit I bought at marshals that is.
I worked hard all through public schoolto get a scolarship to go to college. I work as a salaried worker meaning in exchange for my starting pay of 40 k I have to stay late every night whether or not I have work to impress the boss so i have a shot to move up the latter a bit. The height of the latter I may achieve is limited not by the color of my skin but by the college i attented or didnt attend
FYI cell phone are not for the rich anymore. Quite frnakly they are quite cheap. Free phone $30 a month. NOT TOO BAD
My father worked for the TA for 30 years starting out as a track cleaner. I grew up with stories of him throwing rocks at the rats while taking a break in the tunnels at 3am. He busted his butt so I could go to college and make a better life.
THe people who get hurt the most by raising fares are the people who make the lest in society.
Let me splash some light on your situation
IF you work for the TA you have it better than you thing
Guarenteed employement to you die. A chance for overtime. Little stress if you do your job right
I know what I have...and stress to others the hidden opportunities. If i had known about this 22 years ago...I'd have a great retirement fund and be Unca Steves boss.
NO NO NO NO
The real answer is to utilize technology to cut costs. Raising the cost of mass transit will just persuade people to use another form of transit. I use far fuer cabs due to my monthly unlimited ride pass. Less cars on the road = lower cost of deliveries = lower cost of food on the grocery store shelves.
Many people on this board fail to realize how ineffeicently the MTA is run. Labor costs are the highest expense in operating a transit system. technology must be used to eliminate as much labor costs where possible. It's not that current transit employees are overpaid, it is more that we currently have 3 guys working to screw in one light builb. Four key areas where tremedous savings can be achieved are the following
1) Combining the management of NYC Transit, LIRR and MNCE under one roof. Eliminated separate HR, Payroll and real estae costs.
ESTIMATED SAVING $10-$20 million per year (dont forget about pension and health care bennifits = $15 k a year for the average worker)
2) Eliminate token boothe clerks at most stations. Expand the sale of monthly metrocards by mail/phone/online + enhance metro card sales from local merchants. STATIONS ARE NOT SAFER BECUASE A TOKEN CLERK CAN CALL POLICE. A CALL BOX ON THE PLATFORM plus CCTV is just as effective and far less expensive. THe south end(voorhies) entrence of sheepshead bay station has a token clerk on duty 10% of the time . Thier is no more crime on that end then on the $14th street side. Plus the Voorhies entrence is on a desolate block facinf the belt parkway
3) Upgrade all existing rail equiptment for OPTO SERVICE. The train operator would utilize new vision glases(allows wearer to see an image through regular glassed while also seeing what ahead- used primarily by workers building circuit boards. Real nice technology saw it at a recent tech trade show) which allow the operator to safely cloose all doors Each door has a wireless cam focused on it
5) run shorter trains overnights to further reduce energy expentiures
4)Purchace new hybrid buses, low floor where possible to reduce fuel cnnsumption on buses. Require all operators to turn off busses at terminals( I know they are supposed to, but it is rairly enforced.
6)Utilize air conditioning on bus only when neccissary. I can't tell you how many times air condidioning is still on when the temperture is 65 degrees out.
5) Install cameras on the front of all buses to capture licence plate of vehicles blocking bus stops and bus lanes. The vehicle would be issues a summons similar to summons issues by red light cameras. This would generate an additioal revenue sorce plus allow better on time performance.
THE BEST WAY TO KEEP THE FARE LOW IS TO INCREASE RIDERSHIP. RAISING FAIRS DECREASES RIDERSHIP PUTTING THE COST OF OPERATRING THE SYSTEM OF OPERATING THE SYSTEM ON THE REMAINING SHOULDRS
THe one city one fare and unlimited ride metro card programs have helped to increase ridership and take cars off the road. Our roads are already overcrouded costing NY consumers hundrens of millions of dollars a year in higher cost on things they purchace.
FYI - A large tax is levied on drivers in this city that supports mass transit. Thier are many who would say lower the bridge tolls and raise the subway fair to $6 a ride. Probable the cost it should be if it wasnt for the money diverted over from the mta bridges and tunnels
Commerce is a tough customer...NYC infrastructure depends upon truck delivery, not to mention how many must +drive into the city. Punish those who must drive because of the lack of public transport and you'll kill our city. I could spend all night discussing alternative energy...built a passive solar home. Wanna save big money megawatts? Cut train legnth by coupling cars of necessary passenger requirements and stop using the late night runs as homeless shelters. Make winos pay cash to ride and kick em off out of the station at the last stop. Why have a five car trainset when you have two carloads? Just get one guy to screw in the lightbulb. Private industry versus TA tradition is in conflict...providing 24/7 service and making a profit is what TA must do.
Some good ideas here.
1. There may well be some savings to be had by combining functions among the MTA agencies. I believe LIRR and Metro-North combined purchasing functions a few years ago for that reason -- whether it's worked, though, I don't know.
2. NYCT has been trying to reduce the number of Customer Service Agents (a k a token clerks) and replace them with Metrocard Vending Machines of various types plus out-of-system-sales. The TWU got the ear of various advocacy groups and elected officials, and the matter's in court now. So far, it doesn't look good for NYCT.
3. There are some places where OPTO won't work (curves that are too sharp even with the help of video, but it should be done everywhere it's technologically feasible. To those who say a Conductor is needed everywhere, at all times, I point to all the cases where the Conductor has opened on the wrong side -- do we really need two people for that?
4 (labeled as 5). Running shorter trains in off-hours is a good idea where feasible. However, because of unitized trains, in many cases the choices are: run full-length, or run half-length. Sometimes half-length isn't enough, which means more service would have to be operated, which eats into or eliminates the cost savings from running short trains. Also, there is a cost involved in cutting trains at night and adding them back up in the morning...it has to be looked at carefully, on a case-by-case basis, to determine where it's worth doing.
5 (labeled as 4). I'm very much in favor of hybrid buses if they're diesel/electric -- I'm not big on "alternate fuel" buses, since they tend to be more expensive to buy and more maintenance-intensive for only a small (if any) environmental benefit. Bus Operators are already required to turn off the engine at terminals -- enforcing it would require Dispatchers at all terminals, an expensive proposition (though it also has benefits in reliability), or some form of electronic monitoring. Perhaps when/if NYCT gets an automatic bus tracking system, an engine monitoring system can be part of it.
6. NYC Transit's bus climate control systems are fully automatic. Assuming it's working properly (which is nearly all the time), if the air conditioning goes on it's because it's needed, even if there is an exterior ambient temperature of 65 degrees (as used in the example).
7 (labeled as 5). Bus-mounted cameras that issue tickets are an idea worth considering. It would no doubt require legislation -- I wonder how much support it would garner.
As to the best way to keep the fare low, increasing ridership also increases costs. Diligent, smart schedule-making (that keeps service at a level that meets ridership levels but doesn't exceed them) is part of the equation. Keeping maintenance costs low is another. Ensuring that the appropriate governmental entities provide their fair share of subsidies is also important, and something that isn't entirely within the hands of the transit agency. It's true that raising fares decreases ridership -- that is taken into account by the bean-counters in determining what the fare should be. If ridership is to be cultivated, it should be primarily in the off-peak, where subway cars and track capacity (and buses, on the bus side) are available to increase service where necessary and the personnel are already in place.
David
Can we please cease and desist the practice of off topic posts? It is starting to get realy crazy here. The more off topic posts we put on, the shorter amount of time the title of our transit related posts will be on the first page of the site.
A while ago someone started a thread about the BMT in movies. Maybe this one qualifies. The movie is called, "Bye,Bye Braverman." Anyway I think that's the title. A somewhat pretentious movie about the trials and tribulations of a group of intellectuals on their way to a friend's funeral. I remember a quick bird's eye shot of the Brighton Line's Ocean Parkway station. Don't remember if there were any trains or any other subway shots in it. A lot of the movie had the protagonists driving all around the city, so there's probably a lot of street shots that would interest NYC buffs.
Alan Glick
That one's a real BMT homage. There is a shot of them driving in the VW bug across the Williamsburg Bridge with a numbered train next to them. There is also a great ariel view of the Broadway Junction track maze.
I knew there must have been lots of stuff in that movie that I'd forgotten. When I last saw it, I wasn't yet a rail-fan.
Alan Glick
That's OK. If it wasn't for this website I wouldn't know that BMT trains used to have numbers. I almost wore out the pause button on my VCR trying to figure out why the train marker didn't look like a letter.
If nobody mentioned it previously, "The Little Fugitive" (1953) has some scenes with BMT Standards, I think.
Yes, I mentioned it in the previous thread. At the Stillwell Avenue Terminal.
Alan Glick
I recognized a scene that was shot on Flatbush Avenue near the intersection of Cortelyou Road as (I think) George Segal is in a phone booth trying to get directions to the funeral.
BMTman
A summary of what we know will happen, what seems likely, and then what COULD be built if everyone plays together. Based on releases from PA and TA, personal research and much help from a few SubTalkers.
--------------------------
WHAT WE KNOW *WILL* HAPPEN
--------------------------
IRT 1/9: Service from Chambers to South Ferry to be restored by Nov 2002 by repairing damaged tunnels - Cortlandt to be totally demolished - elevators to be added to Rector and S Ferry stations.
BMT N/R: No info re/closed Cortlandt station.
IND E: No info re/closed WTC (ex Hudson Terminal) terminus.
PATH: Existing station in basement of WTC site to be reopened within 2 years - new accesses likely to be built at ends of platforms to exit to Vesey and Liberty Streets at edge of WTC site.
-----------------
WHAT SEEMS LIKELY
-----------------
IRT: New three-track 10-car S Ferry terminal, perhaps retaining existing 5-car turnaround loop as well. Replacement for demolished Cortlandt station probably tied into ...
PATH: New multi-platform station on lengthened site of old Hudson Terminal station used til 1971 (SE corner of WTC site, from Liberty to Fulton between Church and former Greenwich, between IRT and BMT stations), with loop to/from tubes remaining. Unknown if WTC basement loop would be retained as well.
--------------------------------------------------
WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE TRULY COOPERATED ...
--------------------------------------------------
A single, unified transit complex that connects two parallel two-level stations:
BMT N/R + IND E: Combined two-level Cortlandt station (BMT above, IND below) with merge between IND and BMT tracks south of Cortlandt, north of Rector.
IRT 1/9 + PATH: Combined two-level station (IRT above, PATH below) in old Hudson Terminal station space, moving IRT line east at the north lead from Chambers end and slightly east at the south lead to Rector.
plus UNDERGROUND WALKWAYS TO EXISTING:
- IRT 4/5 Fulton
- BMT J/M/Z Fulton
- IND A/C Broadway/Nassau
- IRT 1/2 Fulton complex
---------------------
ISSUES TO BE RESOLVED
---------------------
- Can you move IRT eastward south of Vesey enough to get it into old Hudson Terminal site? (South end doesn't seem hard, since Greenwich is closer to Church/Trinity at south end than north end)
- Can you fit the connex from a lower level that flies IND up to BMT level into the track space between the south end of current BMT Cortlandt station and the north end of Rector? They look pretty close. (Can't do it north of Cortlandt, says J Lee, due to elevation problems with A/C crossover)
- Could you keep BMT running while building those connex?
- Does the TA gain much/anything useful by allowing E trains to run through the Montague Tunnel and J/M/Z/N/R trains up Eighth Avenue?
- And ... could the PA and TA actually truly work together on this?
I think this scheme works in 3-D. I think it could be built while keeping existing services running. And it would produce many advantages for current transit riders. Plus, the entire WTC site will be open for construction once demolition & recovery is complete.
Comments?
Love your summary. Very helpful.
Is it really that valuable to move tracks around? It would add $1 billion to the tab, and you can never have enough connections for everyone to have a direct ride (except by reducing train frequency to unacceptably low levels). You will always need for most people to change trains once.
I'd personally be overjoyed to see WIDE, STRAIGHT corridors with sufficient escalators and people movers, WITHIN AND OUTSIDE FARE CONTROL, to connect the PATH, 1/9, N/R, E, and Fulton St. complex.
Won't happen. The mugger's lobbying group will force them to build a variable width, twisting, rising and falling, dimly lit corridor with wide pillars and penty of dark alcoves to hide in.
And throw in some extra bumps in the floor so people will trip.
Is it really that valuable to move tracks around? It would add $1 billion to the tab, and you can never have enough connections for everyone to have a direct ride
Well, I think the IRT/PATH piece is more likely since the PA may well resurrect Hudson Terminal. If they do, since IRT Cortlandt will have vanished, you can work the IRT into a new terminal pretty easily since you're designing from scratch. It's just a question of whether they can/would move the IRT alignment.
To me, building one new two-level station shell is cheaper than building two new stations and connecting them -- but since the funding is coming from 2 places, I'm skeptical. But it could happen, maybe.
I'm less convinced the IND/BMT connection would happen. The BMT Cortlandt station isn't too damaged, and to do the connection right (with flyunders) you'd probably have to blow out that station completely (and it was just rehabbed, I think). It's harder to justify demolishing two intact stations (IND World Trade Center & BMT Cortlandt) to build a new single station, but it would have the following advantages:
- added flexibility to interchange IND & BMT (as Hylan intended?)
- all-new fully accessible station designed from scratch
- better connections for IND riders to PATH and IRT
Obviously the TA had no intention of doing any of this pre-9/11. But the opportunity has presented itself, and I for one would hate to see it wasted. Whether or not the Second Avenue Subway gets built in my lifetime, if this reconfiguration doesn't get done now, it won't get done in this new century. I hope the TA makes lemonade out of its lemons.
My feelings exactly, especially the bit about tying together the 8th Av local and BMT Cortlandt tracks.
As for a "new two-level station" for PATH and the IRT, the depths involved likely entail several levels. More likely, there would be a wide, level mezzanine *under* the two Cortlandt stations and *over* the (probably rather high-ceilinged) PATH station.
Actually, it's more tricky than that. The 1 line is about 1 level lower than the N/R (both are just below street level, but W Broadway is lower than Church St). Also, the PATH Hudson Terminal isn't as low as the pre-9/11 PATH station.
Also, it's only 400' from the 1/9 to the N/R, and the PATH tracks will be between those 2 lines. That really isn't very much walking provided the passageways are wide and convenient. That's why I argue that moving tracks isn't worth the money.
It'll take some imagination to figure out the passageways and mezzanines. But the PA has allocated money to start that process right now.
Also, it's only 400' from the 1/9 to the N/R, and the PATH tracks will be between those 2 lines. That really isn't very much walking provided the passageways are wide and convenient.
Hmmmm. I could see some validity in that. Thoughts, though, on the IND/BMT combined station idea?
Moving tracks is great fun to talk about, but it has to bring huge benefits to be worthwhile.
Make a free transfer and a straight passageway between the N/R and the E. This should not be a big deal given there are no buildings in the way any more. Again, this distance is only 400'.
Moving tracks so that Brooklyn BMT folks have even better access to 8th Ave (cross-platform or even direct trains) is not a useful project. Yesterday's NY Times Real Estate section has a map showing exactly where every big building in Manhattan is. Almost none of them are most easily accessed by the 8th Ave line.
Moving tracks so that Brooklyn BMT folks have even better access to 8th Ave (cross-platform or even direct trains) is not a useful project. Yesterday's NY Times Real Estate section has a map showing exactly where every big building in Manhattan is. Almost none of them are most easily accessed by the 8th Ave line.
Well, yeah, at the moment. But midtown from 7th to 3rd is more or less built out. The only big building sites left are now on 8th Avenue in the 40s and 50s, and along 42nd Street west from there.
Again, I don't know enough of the complexities to have any idea whether an IND-BMT track connection would actually improve system flexibility and allow better/faster/more convenient travel for passengers.
You're right, of course, about making a better walking transfer between two existing stations. But I think that's kind of a given with a new PATH station between the IRT and BMT stations ....
Even if 8th Ave becomes a more desirable destination, you also have the splintering effect to consider if you try to connect the E to the N/R. There are 4 services on 4th Ave in Brooklyn. Post-2004, these will have 4 destinations to go to:
Nassau St (M), lower Bway (R), upper Bway via bridge (N), 6th Ave (B, i.e., West End Line). None of these has particularly frequent service. If you add 8th Ave as a destination, you split it up into 5 services with even less frequency.
And none of that would help the Brighton line people, who will have a 6th Ave service and a Broadway-via-bridge service and can get at most one additional service.
You have to balance splintering with easy transfers between lines. A people mover between the R at Cortlandt and the E would improve access from 4th Ave Brooklyn to 8th Ave Manhattan (note that they already have to M-to-A/C transfer at Bway-Nassau). And Brighton Line commuters would get better access to 8th Ave from escalators at W 4th St that actually worked all the time instead of being out of commission a lot.
IRT 1/9: Service from Chambers to South Ferry to be restored by Nov 2002 by repairing damaged tunnels - Cortlandt to be totally demolished - elevators to be added to Rector and S Ferry stations.
I thought they said that would take 2-3 years to rebuild.
I thought they said that would take 2-3 years to rebuild.
That was the PATH. The TA said they plan to have the IRT open by December.
No, I think originally the 1,9 route was also to be closed until 2004. That has changed now and like you said, it will open by the end of the year.
> BMT N/R + IND E: Combined two-level Cortlandt station (BMT above,
> IND below) with merge between IND and BMT tracks south of
> Cortlandt, north of Rector.
I like the idea of a connection, for emergency flexibility if nothing else, but it's not going to happen; there's no way Trinity Street is wide enough to accommodate a junction with the historic buildings along it. No one is going to allow subway construction under Trinity Churchyard for instance. It would be easier to do it if the junction were built *inside* the WTC area by shifting the N/R subway slightly west to allow for a flyunder track to the "E" stub.
IRT -- Given the (relatively) quick repair plans the MTA has for the 1/9 now through the WTC site, the chance of relocating the track route to the east is diminshed. What I hope they do is get some sort of tentative idea about what they and the Port Authority want for a new WTC complex before they begin work. Widening the tunnel at the site to allow for a center platform for both uptown and downtown tracks, with stairs, escallators and elevators going both up one level to the mall level and down one level to the PATH/Hudson Terminal mezzanine (and presumably, the transfer walkways within fare control to the IND and BMT) would seem to make the most sense to me.
PATH -- If the terminal is relocated to its old site and level, the mezzanine level above the tracks would become the center of the transfer connections between the IRT, BMT and IND, since it would be east of Greenwich Street and west of Church, meaning it would only be at most a half-block walk from other subway lines. If the MTA and PA can work out a fare sharing arrangement to allow Metrocard use on both systems and free transfers between the two, even better.
The old WTC PATH mezzanine was full of businesses which made that level of the basement a far more hospitiable place than a simple tile wall does. Having businesses on that level, even if they are outside the fare control zone, would make the connecting tunnels between the IRT, BMT and IND less forbording on nights and weekends if they were connected through that area.
IND/BMT -- The Manny B is the key here -- if the planned fix actually works and all four tracks on the bridge are usable again, then that frees up tunnel space south of Cortlandt to connect up the IND Eighth Ave. tracks to the Montague St. tunnel (you could do it now, but the number of TPH that could use it while sharing trackage with the N and R wouldn't make it worth the effort.
Where it would go once it got to DeKalb would be another question -- it could take the place of the M going to Ninth Ave. or Bay Parkway, or it could just share trackage with the R all the way to 95th St., though I don't know if the Bay Ridge area would warrant a doubling of service (Here's where we could start talking about using the extra trains for a Staten Island subway connection, linked to the Cross Harbor freight tunnel project, but this post is long enough already).
If the current E train tracks were hooked up to the BMT, presumably without a grade crossing north of the Cortlandt St. stop, the current Chambers/WTC terminal would have to be demolished to allow the tracks to drop one level lower, and a new station would have to be built beneath the current BMT station, with the two lines hooking up between Cortlandt and Rector. With the PATH station put back in it's old Hudson Terminal location, the new E station would end up on the same level as the PATH mezzanine. So the east edge of the mezzanine would be part of the downtown E train's platform (side platforms would work better here than an island one, because they would allow direct upstairs/downstairs connection to the BMT Broadway platforms).
The underpass to the uptown BMT and IND platforms would have to be placed beneath that new platfom, and south of Fulton Street or it would be blocked by the Eighth Ave. express tracks turning from Church Street onto Fulton (no big deal, since most of the BMT platform is south of Fulton anyway).
An escallator/elevator or a long ramp with a small grade could still be built from the PATH mezzanine two levels below ground up to the existing walkway from the Church/Vescey St. area one level below the street, that connects to the Chambers St. A/C platform. That would keep the Eighth Ave. express line (and the 2/3 at Park Place) within the WTC complex's fare control zone, but you would have to wall off the east side of the tunnel, since the E trains would be travelling past there at regular speeds. Doing that would make that walkway a little less pedestrian-friendly than it is today, but so long as business reutrns to the area, it should be used enough to keep it from ending up like the 33rd St. tunnel at Herald Square.
Add CNN Headline News to the list of media outlets that just doesn't "get" transit. A short while ago I watched a report on the sooner than scheduled reopening of the 1/9 line to South Ferry. Accompanying the report was a video clip showing the PATH WTC station, complete with a couple stranded cars in the background displaying the PATH logo.
lol.............typical.
Probably stock footage, since camera crews were allowed down to the PATH station, but not to the 1/9. I would of just shown stock footage of an active 1/9 train if I were the producer, if anything at all.
Cameras WERE allowed into the IRT Cortlandt St station for a special photo op ... the only problem is CNN didn't show. So they ended up using what they DID have, footage from MSNBC. It ain't Ted's Atlanta news anymore ... and AOL is a bunch of cheapskates. :)
Yeah, but NY1 is part of AOL Time-Warner. They could've gotten footage from them.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoops ... forgot about those guys ... not available up here. Then again, AOLTimeWeenie bites itself so hard in the Capit-hole region, everybody's got a dish out here. But the footage that I saw on CNN definitely was MSNBC, they even had their logo on top of the MSNBC logo with a bit of the peacock pooking out around it. Good thing for the Columbia School of Urinalism that Edward R Murrow is still dead - he would have had a conniption. :)
I saw that clip, too - knew those were PATH cars.
Were the 1939 World's Fair Lo V's still in relatively good shape after they were removed from the Third Avenue El in 1969? They were only 30 years old. Could they have been kept running, or were they functionally obsolete being based on a design from the first IRT equipment, and impossible to maintain?
I was 4 years old when they were pulled, and remember a shopping trip with my grandmother from Fordham Road back up to Gun Hill on them.
From pictures that I see, it looks like they could have got a few more years out of them.
Even though they were built in 1939, they were merely based on an older Low V design. They were bargain basement budgeted cars to begin with.
The World's Fair Lo-Vs were a tiny fleet of just 50 cars, which I'd imagine had become a non-standard annoyance to maintain by the late '60s. Given their already dated design when built and the service they ran in their latter days on the decaying Third Avenue El, they didn't stand much of a chance to hang around.
The problem with these cars was not so much their age but how poorly they'd been maintained. The Bronx Third Avenue El was a war zone which was allowed to deteriorate almost to the point of collapse. Everything that came in contact with it, cars, neighborhoods, passengers, etc, suffered as a result. As such, whereas on almost any other line the cars would have no doubt been able to contine, on the Third Avenue El they aged beyond their years. That's why they were pulled so soon.
Eric Dale Smith
The Third Avenue El was a war zone? It caused the decay of the neighborhoods surrounding it? Could it have been the other way around?
I don't know, Eric, I have alot of fond memories. If it were so bad, why would a 65 year old man with a bad heart regulary take his grandsons down to 149th and come back up via White Plains Road?
Fact is that the Bronx Third Ave el section was maintained even less than other parts of the system, which means a lot since the era of deferred maintenance meant nothing much was ever done unless an emergency situation occured. I've heard stories of sagging iron struts on the oldest sections south of Fordham Rd, holes in the wooden station platforms and iron bolts and other debris raining down on the streets below whenever a train passed overhead. There was even a story about a broken rail which was temporarily replaced with a piece of wood!
Yep, I can attest to the wood with steel strip on top on the northbound track just north of 156th St ... rode it. Also had a collection of bolts and J clamps from 204th where I lived. And yet, the El was still more solid feeling on a platform than the White Plains line at the same time. You could TELL its days were numbered and that the city wanted it gone, had diddle for ridership and all. But BOY were they surprised when they went to take it down. Whole sections of it (especially above Fordham) refused to go quietly.
Still a damned shame though losing SO many els ... especially the 3rd.
I agree. Not only were they "neglected" but they were slower than the Seven Year Itch. I rode them on a daily basis to/from high school in 1964-1967. I hated those cars. The not only travelled slow, but the doors were really slow, adding to the trip time.
I could either ride south from Fordham to 149th....or ride north to Gun Hill and hop on a Thru Express and beat classmates who did it the southbound way all the way on Third Avenue!! (Of course, in those days, the Thru Express was on the center track from Gun Hill to 149th...)
First, only the car bodies were brand new. They used older running equipment that the IRT had on hand.
Second, they were non-standard. There was not much point in keeping them going and maintain parts and maintenance standards for such a small fraction of the fleet.
Look at other serviceable equipment that was dumped before its time because it was non-standard--e.g.--the SIRT cars (they ran for another dozen years on the SIRT). Outstandingly, the Triplexes, a fleet about 6x as big, three of which manage to still run at 3/4 of a century old.
They used older running equipment that the IRT had on hand.
They did?? Yeah, the trucks are the typical IRT standards,
but the traction motors, grid resistors, compressor and control
package were all in the "modern" style (e.g. WH ribbon grids
with the floating porcelains, UP-style switchgroup). What
parts were recycled?
I'm not an expert on IRT equipment. This was my understanding from conversation with TA personnel back when they were still running.
They didn't happen to mention which components? I'd be interested
in knowing what the IRT could have recycled in 1938. Maybe
Larry R33 has some insight?
That tells you how well the Triplexes were built.
Let's not forget also that the WF's were built at a time that the IRT was ALREADY in bankruptcy, with demands from the city that they produce SOMETHING presentable for the "World's fair" ... what got thrown together was about the best the IRT could muster. The BMT came up with Q cars.
In their last days on the 3rd avenue el, they WERE troublesome though given the condition of cars on other lines, had everyone known that the 3rd Avenue el WAS going to be taken down just four years later, my bet is that they COULD have survived to the end of the line. Back in '69 though, nobody wanted to believe the third was going to really die.
At least my beloved 5655 is still alive and well :-)
-Mark
Any word on how the Transit museum's restoration's going on it? Looked pretty natty in the photos here of her ...
You remember them??? Yo buddy, I remember the 63 WF. CI Peter
Yeah ... the last ones ran on the third avenue el - you'd almost always see them on the north motor, sometimes all but the middle car in 5 car sets. I was born in 1951, so I did miss the trylon and perisphere. Did manage to make '64-'65 often. I *liked* the old girls though I was more fascinated by the regular LoV's ...
Well, I don't know about the "alive" part ... at least there's hope that she can be restored to operate again.
Mr rt__:^)
Before the subway took over the line, where did the tracks go south of 180, or did the original line start there. Are there any remnants left south?
The tracks were part of the New York Westchester and Boston RR. To the south they went to the 132nd St. - Harlem River terminal. The original ROW overpass south of E180th St. was removed about two years ago. The original NYW&B station at E180th St still stands and is used by the NYCT.
Right ! Go outside & see the remaining details that still remain.
180th all by itself is a very interesting place to visit, i.e. switches, yards on both side of the main line, etc.
Mr rt__:^)
Plenty of information available on the New York, Westchester & Boston page on this site.
I used to live in Ridgewood, and a bunch of movies were filmed along the M line in the late 80's to early 90's. For instance, all the in town scenes of Brighton Beach Memoirs were filmed at Seneca Avenue Station on the M. The opening scenes of Malcolm X were filmed at Myrtle Wyckoff. There was a movie filmed at Forest Ave in the early 90's at Forest Ave on the M, with Melanie Grifith under the station, and all along the street at Forest Ave. The whole area was a big part of the movie. It had a Jewish theme, I believe, but I'll be damned if I remember the name. Anyone know?
It was called "A Stranger Among Us" and was shot in the fall of 1991. The kid of an ex of mine was in it, the redhead playing the rabbi's
son. He is sitting on the steps when "Detective" Griffith walks up, and checks out her legs as she goes by. You can't start them too young!!
I was working the M shuttle during the filming and was blinded by all the lighting in the neighborhood.
Why there? The Jewish neighborhood was Williamsburgh ...
That was the strangest part! I never saw so many Hisidic Jews in Ridgewood! The architecture of the building where that segment was filmed somehow must have fit into the mood (or time frame) of the movie.
The movie was set in Williamsburgh. I guess they liked the way the Forest Avenue station area looked better than actually filming in Williamsburgh. If they wanted shots with the el in it, Forest on the M is a better neighborhood than filming the movie around the Broadway el. The buildings are also very nice architectually.
It's funny, the filmers were using an old mansion by the station at the corner of Putnam Ave and Forest Avenues for a "temple". At the time it had been used as a kniting mill, but it was a very pretty building. Funny thing is now it actually is converted to a church! At one point during the move (I just saw it) Melanie Grifith says, "I'll meet you at the corner of Putnam and Forest!" They made no effort to cover up the location in the movie. The Forest Ave sign is visible in many scenes. I guess unless you live in Ridgewood or Williamsburg, no one else would notice that Forest and Putnam is in Ridgewood not Williamsburgh.
Supposedly the REAL Hasids (an extremely insular group) residing in Williamsburg wouldn't allow the filming of a movie depicting them in their neighborhood, so the filmmakers went to Ridgewood, whose row houses and el make it look reasonably like Williamsburg.
I saw the movie on video many years ago and don't recall them specifying the locale as Williamsburg or anywhere else.
Yeah it was pretty neat. Under the el between Madison and Putnam Avenues, they had trailers for Dressingrooms. Micheal J Fox's wife and Melanie Griffith literally lived under the M train during filming for a few days. Now that I know the name of the movie again, I have to go rent it.
That movie was horrible. Speaking of equally horrible movies, there are several scenes from the 1995 movie "The Jerky Boys" filmed on Fresh Pond Road with excellent views of the M platform there.
Hey that's almost every station on the M el that had a movie filmed at it.
Fresh Pond Road - The Jerky Boys
Forest Avenue - A Stranger Among Us
El Between Forest and Seneca Stations - French Connection
Seneca Avenue - Brighton Beach Memoirs
Wyckoff Avenue - Malcolm X
Hey that's almost every station on the M el that had a movie filmed at it.
Fresh Pond Road - The Jerky Boys
Forest Avenue - A Stranger Among Us
El Between Forest and Seneca Stations - French Connection
Seneca Avenue - Brighton Beach Memoirs
Wyckoff Avenue - Malcolm X
Actually in addition to those listed:
Knickerbocker Avenue had a movie filmed in front of the police station that you can see from the station, but I can't remember what the movie was.
Myrtle-Broadway had a scene from "Ghost" filmed by it.
So that just leaves Central and Metropolitan without a movie.
I believe "The Warriors" was filmed at Fresh Pond station as well as many other stations on the system.
I always liked the way the makers of the "Warriors" movie made Eastern Parkway on the J train look like Woodlawn on the #4.
Hello fellow SubTalkers
There have been many attempts in the past to try and get a handle on what everyone's favorite subway car is. Voting by thread is rather chaotic and unscientific. I now believe that I have found an alternative that will be fun for all.
Of course, I would be taken away in a straight jacket and thrown in the Randall's Island asylum if I felt that this would: a) resolve anything, or b) come to a definitive answer. The question of what everyone's favorite subway car is, after all, unanswerable. That is why we're here, that is why this message board is here, and that is why the question will be debated until the end of time.
I simply felt that it would be fun to try and produce a scientific poll, and let everyone argue over the results ad infinitum.
Please be sure to read the notes at the bottom regarding this poll. Now without further adieu, and to put my newfound web skills to the test, here is the first of many polls I hope to produce:
Notes:
1) You may only vote once! The script will not allow you to vote multiple times, ensuring the validity and objectivity of the results. So no complaining that people are cheating!
2) This is for fun.
3) The script only allows 10 questions. That's why I had to break the polls down by division. The next question will be what is your favorite in-service IND/BMT rolling stock. I hope to produce many other polls in the future.
4) The script is powered by Bravenet.com. A special thanks to Dave Pirmann for hosting a message board powerful enough to support fun JavaScript games like this. Thanks Dave!!!
5) Taking the poll is free and harmless.
6) Polling will be open for 5 days. That will give everyone sufficient time to find the thread and vote. The poll will close at 1:00 PM EST on Thursday, January 10th, 2002.
Whenever it comes in, it will be 6969.
It's gotta be the WF R36.
That was what I voted for, simply because he neglected to insert the R110A, which is my absolute favorite IRT car for one obvious reason.
This may be a stupid question, but is the r110a in service? I had to limit this poll to in-service rolling stock, based on David Pirmanns web site list. If the r110a is in service, then I did make an error. Thanks for voting anyways,
MATT-2AV
it isnt
1) You may only vote once! The script will not allow you to vote multiple times, ensuring the validity and objectivity of the results. So no complaining that people are cheating!
Um, I voted twice, and the second vote was counted. I felt bad that nobody voted for the R26.
Ooops.
We'll just keep that secret to ourselves.
I tried to vote twice when I first posted, and it wouldn't let me.
Thanks for voting, and we'll see if we can drum up more support for the R26,
MATT-2AV
Is there really enough difference between R62 and R62a and R142 and R142a to merit separate voting?
Or, for that matter, within the various Redbird classes?
I'd say five categories would yield more meaningful results: Redbird-ML, Redbird-WF, R-62(A), R-110A, and R-142(A).
I'm disqualified: the best of the bunch is an EP because it's a R62 specialty car that doesn't take passengers , just tows work platforms and garbage. It really is too early to sort out the R142/R142A choices because for the passengers upstairs, THEY ARE IDENTICAL! CI Peter
The results will be combined. They are built, after all, by separate manufacturers. I wanted to see if there was any difference in the preference of manufacturer. I felt it was better to be too refined than too general. The results can be combined to see broader trends. I had 10 spots, so I might as well as use them all. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
I'd say the R-33's. Always like them on 2 or the 4. Mainly because of the speedometer.
The R-33 gets my vote as well. The ones on the 2 are still in pretty good shape. Nothing compares with the Redbird express from 96 to Chambers.
Wimp...never got your hands dirty. Reef em. CI Peter
My hands are always dirty after a day of railfanning. Always. (Nothing like yours, I'm sure.)
I, for one, am looking forward to an early morning Redbird express ride from 96 to 42 on a 5. Even if it is an R-28 or somesuch.
What?! No R22?
THATS RIGHT !!!........&..no r-12s... r-15s ...r-22s....r-17s...
oh yea........all of em' RAILFAN WINDOW EQUIPPED !!
& the r21-22- had a split OPEN railfan window .....................YEA MAN !!! OH YEA OH YEA !!!
WOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPEEEEE!!!!!!
I feel like a kid again .....lol !!
"I feel like a kid again .....lol !!"
I'm glad to hear so. Don't worry, Salaam, there will be a separate vote for retired IRT cars.
The script only allows 10 options, and I couldn't fit all the retired cars in with the in-service cars, so I felt it would be best to have a separate vote.
MATT-2AV
( smile ) just venting off some steam !
cant help it the big URGE hits me !!
he he he lol !!
See my response to Salaam. I didn't have enough room to fit in in-service and retired cars in the same vote, so we'll have to have a separate vote for retired cars.
MATT-2AV
Actually I prefer 3 types of cars ;the R14(had to love those R11/R34 windows on the doors),the R36(you can't really break it down between ML and WF anymore they all run on the Flushing line now,only the R33 can be broken down that way.And the R142 and R142A .I think both are great cars.
LOW-V
My vote goes to the WF R-36s in their original paint scheme.
But yeah, who could get excited about IRT cars once the LoV's were gone? To me, the "redbirds" were interlopers, having deprived me of my favorite ride. Fortunately, I could STILL get my yayas on the 3rd Avenue el until that got revoked as well.
The LoV's were in truly sorry shape, but just like the R1/9's, they had *SOUL* ... truly BAD transportation, but for railnuts, the ULTIMATE rail experience ... and yeah, I *still* realize, especially having worked the mainway, that the subway's primary purpose is to be TRANSPORTATION, not an amusement park ride. But still, if the TA abandons another line, it REALLY should be set aside *AS* an "amusement park" ... maybe we could rebuild the Culver shuttle? The LUCIANO run on the Frankie with Mickey Mouse hoisting a BEER at Consumer's Park station rebuilt? Maybe take some of that Atlantic Avenu steel and rebuild two stops on the MYRTLE?
What the hell! If NYC is going for "la tourista" then why not rebuild PARK ROW and the ROW over the Brooklyn Bridge? Wuh-oh ... better check what I've been smoking. Damned Quebec border "duty free shops!" (Los Cubanos) Heh.
Sorry no vote from me because your list is missing Lo-V, Hi-V, R-12, R14, R-15 R-17, etc.
Why are these important, because some still exist & can be ridden for the 1st time, then again & again. (which I did a few years ago aboard a Lo-V & a Hi-V).
Mr rt__:^)
I was coming home from work eariler this week and when I got off my train, another train was pulling in on the opposite track. The train was not slowing down, then I heard the brakes squeal really loud and the train over ran the platform by one car length. First time I saw a train overrun a platform, it was cool. What was really sad is that the train was only 4 cars long, which means it had 300 ft (or 150 front and back) of leeway, and it still missed.
My question is: the train sat there for a moment and opened the doors, and the red lights that light up on the outside when the doors are open were lit up on the first car which was in the tunnel. Does that mean the doors were open on that car? I couldn't tell. There's a walkway on the side of the tunnel, but still it's suprising to me to open the doors on that car.
Err, TD will correct me if I mis-recall....even if you have
cut-out every door panel on the car, the exterior guard light
will still come on when the conductor presses the door open
button.
Absolutely correct. As long as either the unlocking wire or opening wire in a car is energized, the guard light will come on. Locking out the door(s) will not de-energize the DRO or DRU wires.
Now if you DC1, DC2 you can open the crew door but you can't close it?
And while we are asking if you make an unintentional add with another charged piece you don't dump do you? It is the imbalance in the pressure that makes you dump?
And while we are asking if you make an unintentional add with another charged piece you don't dump do you?
In general, this is true.
If the R143s were to run anywhere other than the BMT Eastern Division, how would they make 10 car trains if the need persisted?
Get rid of the if. These cars are for the Eatern division only.
I think they could be reconfigured into 10 car sets if they had to, but that will probably never happen. The R143 will be born and will die on the Eastern division.
You never know what might happen. Just throwing out the possibility.
They could just change them to 5 car sets. If there wer too many loose A cars then you might get 1-2 all A car sets.
It is not such a big deal if they move them the barns would get overhauled, too.
When I was in NYC, I noticed the following errors in C/R transfer announcements:
No 7 at 23rd on the V and E.
No E, G, or V on the 7 (I think, can't remember for sure)
No F at 59th on any of the 6 trains I rode
No 6 at Lexington on the F
They announced the W on the 6 at 59th both times I was there on Saturday 12/29
The C/Rs on the R142A need to learn to wait for that stupid tone to sound before they announce the V and W at the respective stations. The one time I was on an R142 the C/R waited and made excellent announcements. On the 6, you normally get this:
F: This is 51st Street.
M: Transfer to the E and F
DING
(silence)
(doors open)
F: This is a Brooklyn Bridge...
One C/R cut off the F but didn't say anything about the V that we could actually hear.
Anyone know why they still do this and/or who to complain to?
You will make an excellent conductor.
Thanks.
Why waste valuable time and your breath. 'The next stop is...watch the closing doors.' Human error on my R142 #2s. CI Peter
The MetroCard-only transfers are generally not announced. The one in Manhattan isn't even signed; the one in Queens is.
As for correcting the outdated R-142(A) announcements, most C/R's (in my experience) don't bother. Only once have I heard a correction made, at 42, and I ride R-142's on the 2 all the time.
And don't expect updates.........be glad that ur R142 #2 doesn't hang up. CI Peter
I'll be glad if my R142 #2 makes its scheduled stop at 86th Street! The last one I rode didn't.
I thought that when the V Trains started to run they were going to reprogram the automated announcements on the new trains. What happened?
Also, about a year ago, when I rode a #2 Train of R-142's, I noticed they never announced a transfer to the #3 Line, even though it made every single stop my train made on the stretch that I was on.
- Lyle Goldman
I thought that when the V Trains started to run they were going to reprogram the automated announcements on the new trains. What happened?
That's what I had heard as well. I don't know what happened. The need for corrections is even more pressing than anyone on 7/22 had imagined it would be at the end of the year.
Also, about a year ago, when I rode a #2 Train of R-142's, I noticed they never announced a transfer to the #3 Line, even though it made every single stop my train made on the stretch that I was on.
The R-142's announce the transfer to the 3 at 135 and Franklin. Neither one makes much sense now; 135 never made sense.
I got Peter Dougherty's new Third Edition of the Tracks of the NYC Subway and it is great as always. If you do not have yours yet, get it now. I also have all his other editions of the Subway Tracks and they are awesome also.
Strength and Honor to Peter Doughtery and the new Third Edition of the Subway Tracks on NYC.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Cool. I am writing my check to Peter right now.
Tunnel Rat
I was just checking out the subway bibliography on this site, and I noticed that it lists just about all the movies, films and documentaries that feature the New York City subway system. I know there are a lot of movies that feature transit scenes from other cities, for example:
"Streets Of Fire" (1984) It shows a great deal of Chicago "L" footage.
"Rocky" (1976) Although I haven't seen the film in its entirety, I know it shows footage of SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line with the M-3 ("Almond Joy") cars.
Does anyone know of other movies that feature "non-New York" transit systems (Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, etc.)? Will they eventually be listed on this site in subway bibliography?
The film 'Blow Up' (circa 1981) has John Travolta riding the subway-surface lines to Penns Landing (since it's already fantasy, he's riding in a red/white/blue Bicentennial scheme ex-KC car, and we know they never operated in the subway).
The film 'Avalon' (mid-80's) has several scenes with Baltimore PCC's including one where a car derailed and ran into a gas station. A rubber-tired mock-up was built and used for many of these scenes, in addition to the PCC at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. At least one scene I recall had the main characters riding on a car.
There's quite a few movies that feature the Chicago "L", as most movies being filmed in Chicago usually feel obligated to include at least one passing "L" shot (and of course, everybody in Chicago lives directly under an "L"). Here's a few that come to mind offhand:
The Blues Brothers (a Chicago classic!) has numerous "L" scenes, including the "L" outside their apartment window and the chase scenes under the "L" structure.
The Fugitive features the "L" at several critical points of the movie's plot.
Adventures in Babysitting has a gang fight scene on a 6000-series train.
There's a Patrick Swayze movie (I forget the name offhand) that features a chase scene on the roofs of passing "L" trains.
High Fidelity has a short scene that takes place on a 2600-series "L" train.
And of course, the new movie Ali features a couple 6000-series cars on loan from the Illinois Railway Museum.
And while the "L" isn't critical to the plot of either Backdraft or Ferris Bueller's Day Off, there is at least one passing "L" scene in each movie. And The Untouchables, while not directly featuring the "L", has a famous shoot-out scene on the steps inside Chicago's Union Station.
Other cities' transit scenes:
The Man With One Red Shoe has a scene that supposedly took place on the Washington Metro, but in reality was the Baltimore Metro.
Speed and a couple other action movies feature the LA Metro Red Line.
I don't recall any transit scenes from Boston or Philly offhand, but I'm sure they're out there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"While you were sleeping" also, one of my FAVORITE Sandra Bullock films.
IIRC it showcases the 3200-series cars.
DAMN! Now you're getting me in trouble with L car lovers, possibly getting me on BIG ED's sheet list too! Dunno what cars they were, I call them "Bob Newhart cars" ( zenith of duh! ) ... I only watched the movie because Sandra Bullock back then was my ULTIMATE fantasy babe) ... no offense intended towards Chicago, but I've BEEN THERE ... their "L's" are built like the Myrtle, the 5th, the 3rd and everything ELSE that's been torn down in NYC as "rickety" ... NO JOKE! I am *NOT* kidding. What passes for "L" in CHICAGO was excused to *US* as "CRAP!"
REPEAT ... I'm *NOT* kidding. Chicago is RUNNING what WE TRASHED!!!
Tells us all something here on NYC subtalk ... Chicago has NO PROBLEM with all WE DESTROYED!!! Is Chicago wrong, or are WE?
Since trolleys used to run around the Loop, and some L cars themselves were rebuilt PCCs, I've started to wonder why the CTA is classed as a heavy rail line. Maybe this is not a New York vs. Chicago comparison but rather between the two vehicle categories. And while the salty smell of the Hudson River beats Lake Michigan, nothing will equal that tar aroma the wooden L platforms have!!
It IS a remarkable piece of work and what amuses me is how PROUD Chiagoans are of their "L" while here in NYC, there seems to be a neverending urge to get rid of every last one ...
Also, all the fire escapes in Chicago are wooden. Is it a "rickety" town?
It "tottles" ... it's a pretty cool city given its midwest location. :)
Those elevated structures in Chicago weren't built that lightly. Keep in mind that North Shore trains came in on the Loop for years, and those interurbans weighed a few tons more apiece than the BMT standards. There was an article in the Tribune when the Green Line was shut down for rebuilding, and it stated that those lines were overbuilt. If they needed a structure capable of supporting a thousand tons, they'd build it to support 2,000 tons.
That's jusy good 19th Century engineering. Look at a lot of things engineered 1880-1900. It's over built. Take the Baltimore tunnel fire last year. The fear was that the heat might have weakened the tunnel arch. Once the fire was out and the tunnel was expected, all they found was that the 2500 degree heat did was burn all the steam/diesel soot off. The brick arch was scoured almost clean. I've pulled a 20 ton steel streetcar with a 9 ton single truck wooden car built in 1898. Overbuilt!!
I'm willing to bet the Atlantic Ave. tunnel falls into that category.
Do they still do tours of the Atlantic tunnel? I took one 7 or so years ago. It was very interesting. Have they done anything with it in those years? I know there was talk of excavating behind the wall at the end. Anyone have any word of what has been happerning, if anything?
Bob Diamond would like to extend his PCC line to that tunnel.
I think it's a very l-o-n-g range plan.
Mr rt__:^)
You mean the Red Hook line. Wow, cool, but waaaaaay long in the future!
Once Bob gets his loop done so he can run a PCC around it with customers, then it will be easier for him to extend the line little by little into Brooklyn ... he'll have a fleet of three operating cars pritty soon (well two of them are stuck in the barn right now until the pier gets fixed).
Mr rt__:^)
Pretty cool. What streets is this all going on now. Where are his tracks?
Red Hook, down by the water (Bob's site is down so I can't give you the specific address).
Mr rt__:^)
Two plans are afoot that I know of.
One: acquire a piece of property on either side of the street so that folks could use it as a future tunnel entrance/exit instead of the current 'middle of the street-through the manhole entrance' that now exists.
Two: extend the BHRA trolley line to downtown Brooklyn and run the line through and OUT of the tunnel (which would be near Adams/Boerum Streets).
Bob D could best answer these questions though.
BMTman
Is there a website for the BHRA?
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/redhook/redhook.html
That the best I can do for now (during lunch).
Wow the trolly would be great. It would also help the transit museum. It would also bring tourists. Nice idea!
What's amazing though is that they don't LOOK that sturdy - whereas NYC used mostly box girder designs in the dual contracts constructions, Chicago went for the older "Gilbert erector set" style girders of open construction type. That's the comparison that caught my eye when I first got out there. And what is commonplace in Chicago for El structure was ripped down in NYC for being "rickety" ... Go figger ...
I've read with amusement all the joking about Chicago's obsolete 'L'.
We'll, I'll agree that our system can come nowhere near the NYC system in terms of sheer size and carrying capacity.
But, it works for Chicago. We also have three short subways and many miles of line in the median of expressways and on embankment. Not to mention we have some running at grade, complete with crossings, on a few branches also.
The Loop 'L' is over 100 years old and carries the trains of four lines five days a week. Yes, our stations are old and wooden, but we have more recently rebuilt ones also. In fact, there is much variety on the CTA 'L'.
One thing that can be said for the CTA is that they know how to run their trains - 55 MPH on open stretches of elevated right-of-way. The last time I road ANYTHING in NYC it hardly broke 40 MPH.
New Yorkers can say what you want about the Chicago 'L'. It works for us - most of the time. At least when there is a delay, we know where we are.
I ride it daily.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
You don't need to defend the L on this board; there was a SubTalk Chicago field trip Labor Day weekend.
It seems some of the posters on SubTalk think they have the right to take 'shots' at the 'L'.
Wonder is any of them have ridden it?
Jim Kramer
Chicago
I have ... several times ... even went underground for a while. Even got off at "Sedgewick" out of curiosity and had a look around. That's why I was so amazed by what I saw ... once again, not intended as an insult to Chicago at all - meant it as an insult to NEW YORK for trying to tell us that such elevated construction was begging for mass casualties and that was why WE tore them down ... seemed to be working just fine in a place that's often colder and windier than NYC ...
I rode through the Loop and took the State Street line in the summer of 1988. The former was a neat ride; the latter was shabby, smelly and the stations had poor lighting, at the time.
From what I've read, things have gotten better...
I've ridden on the Red line lots of times, as my aunt lives right next to it. Been on the 6000s, 2000s, 2400s, and 2600s on that line. The subway runs are positively deafening.
I've also been on the Blue Line with 2200s and rode on the Orange Line once on the 3200s. Rode on the Evanston Express twice with the 6000s.
Never rode on the 4000s, but remember seeing them on the Evanston Express.
Just so ya know (since I'm the one making most of the comments) I am ENVIOUS of Chicago for having the stones to keep and use elevateds that New York City considered to be "rickety old crap" ... Chicago PROVES that many of NYC's L's died in VAIN ... I just wish we could get some of ours BACK ...
When Eileen and I were on our honeymoon, we saw a car right after it collided with an "L" support column IN THE LOOP. This car was driven by a ***SPEED***LUNATIC***. the whole front of the car was GONE, smashed flat. and the "L" column was unscathed Chicago"s wonderful "L" system is anything but junk!
Yep ... I noted the same thing when I was there and looked at it. Amazingly, New York's old now gone els were built the SAME WAY. And they kept trying to tell us that they were deathtraps and off to the cutter's torch ours went ... Chicago's structures prove that the old els could still be with us ...
yes and no.
some facts
1. in the early sixties speed restriction were imposed on the Jackson Park Branch below 61st on account structural problems which culminated decades later in complete shutdown, demolition and partial reconstruction(mot the full route)
The 4000's were heavy cars and were the backbone of the fleet until the second order of PCC L cars6201 up IIRC.
The Lake St line has also been completely rehabbed.
The Douglas end of the Blue is next and that leaves the inner part of the Red and a short part of the Ravenswood and the Blue from the portal to the second tunnel as semi original structures. (Repairs/maintenance have been done I assume on some of these over the years if only because modifications have happened.
Indeed the 6000's were PCC like in construction and weight. so they pounded the rails more gently.
And from the other POV, I remember clearly 'feeling ' the approach of a train on the IRT before hearing it. (I was somewhere north of Spuyten Duyvil on the B'way Local)
Thanks for the background ... and yep, I lived near 231 and Broadway (second stop north of the bridge) on the Broadway line and moving steel IS a good thing. You could REALLY feel the 3rd avenue el as a train was coming and I noticed similar on the loop in Chi-Town. of course, the Jamaica El in Brooklyn would REALLY let you know there was a train running SOMEWHERE on the line. Heh.
The all-steel 4000s were the heaviest cars to run in Chicago, and yet they weighed the same as a typical IRT R unit - about 38 tons.
The 6000s were indeed based on the PCC design. In fact, 6201-6720 and the 50 singles for Evanston service were built from parts cannibalized from Green Hornet streetcars.
When My wife and I were dating, our favorite movie was "While You Were Sleeping"., When we got married, our honeymoon was in Chicago and I let Eileen plan the activities, as long as we rode the L to get there. Seeing the station featured in the film along with the other unique aspects of the L, has caused both of us to fall in love with your system.
Don't forget Steve McQueen's swan song, "The Hunter," where he swings from the pantograph of a Skokie Swift car. There's an obscure flick, "Six Bridges to Cross," from the 50s where Tony Curtis is on a platform at North Station and there are Orange Line subway cars and Green Line PCCs running side by side.
"Trains, Planes, and Automobiles" also filmed a scene near the end on CTA.
George Lucas' early film (1970), THX 1138 has scenes filmed in the then-incomplete BART tunnels in the San Francisco area. Donald Pleasence and a young Robert Duval make for a not-so-shabby cast, considering this was near-zero-budget picture.
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0066434
The Patrick Swayze film for 1989 was 'Next of Kin' that David refers to. Truman Gates, played by Swayze, is a Chicago detective and must investigate his brothers death which concerns the mob. Truman's brother Briar Gates, played by Liam Neeson, travels from the south to hunt and avenge the killing of their brother because Truman just isn't gettin the job done.
It is Briar Gates, who takes up residence in some Uptown flophouse in the vicinity of Wilson Avenue during his stay in Chicago, you riding the rooftop of 2600's. I don't recall if the curves depicted in the rooftop train scenes are that of Sheridan Road or North/Halsted.
For one of my all time favorite 1980's scenes of the 'L' don't forget 'Runnin Scared'(1986). Gregory Hines driving along the Ravenswood line, the actual right-of-way, in the squad car in hot pursuit of the bad guy, Jimmy Smits, while Billy Crystal gives a running report on their location along the line. Lots of PCC's to be seen in that one. Lots of scenes of the Near Northside before gentrification.
Jim Kramer
Didn't the beginning of Runnin Scared El chase scene start with the Skokie Swift right of way? I thought I remembered a CTA train with pantograph crossing a grade crossing.
"Didn't the beginning of Runnin Scared El chase scene start with the Skokie Swift right of way? I thought I remembered a CTA train with pantograph crossing a grade crossing."
Yes, that is the one.
Jim K.
And in fact, this film was on cable last night, one of the HBO channels I think. Liam is Irish, and you can see there was a lot of dubbing to get his West Virginia accent right. It is not a very good movie.
What little I saw of it suggests he was subway surfing. He's shown jumping from one train roof to that of a second opposing-running train.
"What little I saw of it suggests he was subway surfing. He's shown jumping from one train roof to that of a second opposing-running train."
Yes, that's the one. He jumped from one train to another. Did you notice that the rooftops of the cars had a special covering, which squared off the roof, and I expect made it safer to do that stunt. If you regularly ride the CTA, you'd notice the roofline of the cars was not the norm.
I agree with you, the movie was BAD!
Jim K.
Chicago
Another Chicago flick, Blankman, will be on the Comedy Channel Saturday. It's about a superhero whose version of the Batmobile rides the rails of the Milwaukee L. His Batcave was cleverly placed in the then-closed Grand station.
From Boston is Fuzz. The opening credits have an Orange Line train emerging from the north end of the tunnel onto what was then the Charlestown el. Raquel Welch descends from a station to a police district next to a park.
add 'Code of Silence' w/ a fight staged on the roof of L cars crossing from M Mart to the Loop.
also a brief dawn scene at Jackson Park before demolition in Stony Island
BTW if ...One Red shoe is the spy thriller set in DC w/ a Soviet Mole in the Navy, the subway scenes are both. He runs down into a DC Metro entrance but the next shot has him coming down to a Baltimore Station.
Any film with shots of the Baltimore Subway (Metro) posing as any other system were always shot on Sunday, as the line didn't run on Sundays.
I suspect there won't be too much of thay type any more, as we now have 7-day a week operation, unless the film companies want to film between 1:30 and 5 AM.
Speaking of Chicago, let's not forget:
Risky Business (1983) - Famous sceen of Tom Cruise and Rebecca De Moirnay making love on one of the single unit PCC L cars in the State St. subway.
The Sting (1973) - Scenes of L tracks and platforms, but no trains.
-- Ed Sachs
I'm almost certain that a shot of a 6000 does appear very briefly in The Sting. An anachronism, of course. It should have been a 4000 or a wooden car.
And didn't "Predator II", (early '90s) set "in the future" in 1997, feature shots of a yet to be built LA subway???
There s a 4000 train in one scene
I was almost certain it was a 6000, but it's years since I saw the film. Were there any 4000s still running in '73? It was my understanding that the film was shot using contemporary 1973 Chicago scenery which looked like the thirties.
Whatever the car, it was in the green and cream colour scheme, not the green, orange and salmon authentic for the period the film was set in.
What about "Bad Boys"? In that movie, there was a rape under the Evanston Line EL.
Trading Places has a beginning scene showing the Philadelphia EL. 48 Hours shows a scene of Nick Nolte and Eddie Murphy chasing a fugitive in a San Francisco MUNI subway station. Lethal Weapon 3 has LA Blue Line scene. And Training Day has some footage of LA light rail (?line).
U.S. Marshalls showed a shootout at a cemetary in Queens NY, but the train passing in the near by track is a Chicago Metra Bi-level train.
Trading Places also has a couple of quick shots in the start of a Kawasaki car, I believe on Lancaster Ave on Route 10.
there was a movie about five years ago call "Closing Doors" about a lady who gets shut our of a London Underground car. The movie show what would have happened if she made the train compared to what would happen in her life in not making the train.
It was a "woman's type" movie.
I think the title was "Sliding Doors".
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the movie "Subway"!!!!
Yes, there IS such a movie, and before you all have heart attacks, it was NOT filmed anywhere in North America.
It is a thriller done in the Paris Metro. There are some scenes on one of the elevated lines as well as many of the subway stations. It's about some crime going on in the subway system. It IS subtitled, so no need to understand French to get the drift of the story.
Used to be at larger Blockbuster outlets.
The TV remake of Taking of Pelham Bay 1,2,3 a few years ago was shot using Toronto subway trains.
There was also a remake of "The Silent Partner" that has a couple of scenes of riding in the subway that were filmed in Toronto as well.
Last night I was flipping channels and saw a subway train roll across the screen so, obviously, I stopped and watched that show. The show was "Friday the 13th: The Series" or something to that effect. It was filmed in Toronto and they did a really cheezy job of trying to cover it up - literally with huge logos for a nonexistant city or black tape plastered on top of everything that said TTC.
The entire plot was tied into the subway but it was really bad. I came across it partway through but from what I could make out, the long and short of it was that some lady with a cursed pocket watch had to be in a specific subway station at 1 in the morning to 'freeze time' which gave her an hour to do whatever she wanted.
So, lots of subway shots including the heroes running through tunnels with the third rail live (could see a lit TTC issue 'string of five' connected to it in the background) which I'm surprised the TTC allowed. Use of the 'mute' button would have improved it.
-Robert King
On an episode of "the X-Files" the agents were chasing a monster or something in the Boston subway tunnels. However it was horribly done. The subway cars the used were LA cars and the begining of the show takes place at Clay street station, which doesnt exist. I think it is because Boston charges so much to film anything in the city.
Matt Damon rides a Quincy/Baintree train a couple of times in Good Will Hunting.
There was a movie made in 2000 called Jesus's Son that featured the SEPTA MArket-Frankford train in the role of the Chicago L. The exterior shots were of the new M-4 cars, but the interior shots were done in an old Almond Joy. Even though the scene was supposed to be in Chicago, the Philly route map was still very visible. :) The car was also made to look a lok trashier than I've ever seen a SEPTA or CTA car.
Mark
Hi,
happy new year transit people... I took a break from driving the g train in bve to ask a question... I am not in nyc so I might have missed something...
I understand long term, but until the mb opens up in 2004, why didnt they run the V to grand? 2nd ave already has v service..
Thanks,
Allen
Probably because there is no way to switch tracks near Grand Street. Thus, only one train could occupy the stretch from Broadway-Lafayette through Grand Street ar a time.
Would it be possible to run maybe every second or third (V) to Grand Street?
I suppose so, but why do it? You probably get more frequent service from the existing shuttle.
The shuttle runs every 12 minutes according to an earlier posting on this site. Even if you run every other V to Grand St., the new headway would be in excess of 12 minutes since the V does not run every 6 minutes. Let's leave the service as it is. We talked about this to death some time ago for the benefit of newbies. The single track from north of Bway Lafayette to Grand means you need pin-point-set your watch-on time performance. This is why it is a bad ideas to even send every second or third V there no matter what. You also have crew schedules to take into account. Some crews start/finish at Second Ave.
Ahh, I didn't realize the (V) isn't terribly frequent either. Oh well, it's only for a couple more years anyway, then they get the (B) and (D) back.
The single track from north of Bway Lafayette to Grand means you need pin-point-set your watch-on time performance.
There is a need for such performance on practically every line during rush hour. I haven't been able to set my watch by the train schedules for decades.
How did they handle this back in the late 80's when the S ran between 57 and Grand on 6th Ave?
The trains operated on the southbound track only from north of Broadway/Lafayette into Grand St. Trains ran on 12 minute headways all day long. I have visions of those god awful R27's seared into my brain.
I've yet to figure out why virtually all those R27/30's wound up with flat wheels over there, while it rarely happened to the same cars during their normal duties in the eastern division. We're talking about virtually every car on every train with flats. Unless some hot rod motorman kept on taking power with the brakes partially applied!
They were outcasts from the ENY yard, probably banished to that route so that they could spend their days working on those nice newly overhauled R30's and R42's.
It was the car of choice, to keep the homeless awake and regular passengers alert!
avid
No switch north of Grand St. This has been discussed ad nauseum ...
There is no cross over...
... although you could put a crossover before the station one side at a time, while running the shuttle to the other.
Can someone let me know what RR the remaining tracks on 47th Avenue in the warehouse and industrial area of Sunnyside belonged to? There is a remaining decorated flatcar on the tracks.
And, did they connect at all with the nearby Sunnyside Yards?
Joe Cunningham explained it all on a transit museum tour last March, but...I forgot.
www.forgotten-ny.com
kevin, it's part of an old LIRR industrial spur that ran off the lower montauk right where that line goes into the yard over the bridge on skillman av. it was known as the 'degnon sidings' There was, at one point, a dozen or 2 sidings in that area. I recall a boxcar being parked at near the location with the strangely painted old flat car & traction motors - the flatcar, rails, and otehr items there were only painted in recent years.
Apparently, at one time, there was an elevator in one of the buildings where boxcars were loaded onto the elevator, and sent up the building for unloading or loading. (!!!!)
Here's a link that's overloaded with info on the place (if it don't come out in the post, i'll email it to you...):
http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/mrr2.html#Murrer
oops - forgot to add that the boxcar i saw there was in the late70's, early 80's. somewhere between 79' and 82, i'd guess. service on the spur probably ended in the 80's.
"Apparently, at one time, there was an elevator in one of the buildings where boxcars were loaded onto the elevator, and sent up the building for unloading or loading. (!!!!) "
Kinda like that big Port Authority building at 111 8th. Ave.??
When I was a teenager, I worked as a messenger, and had to deliver an envelope to 111 8th Ave.---besides being a huge building, I was awestruck by the sight of big trucks pulling into humongous elevators, to be taken to massive indoor loading docks to be loaded and unloaded...incredible.
i'm assuming that's what it was like. i heard from someone, i can't recall who or where they were talking about, but they said such a place as you described was still in use today, and that the FED-Ex or UPS trucks would collect the mail on them elevators. i'm not sure if it's the same building you described, but hey, they might still be doing something along them lines somewhere around town...
787 7th Avenue has truck elevators on the 52nd Street side. It's a modern office building, I think they bring all kinds of deliveries to the building that way, avoids trucks double-parked on the street....
Thanks... Sam Berliner, who does a Long Island Motor Parkway page, is branching out into railroads now. Like the ever-expanding
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think the area might be a leftover from the days when different railroads coming out of Hunter's Point. If I remember my history All were absorbed by the LIRR. Some were abondoned. There was a RR that went thru Jackson Heights. 34 Avenue between Junction and the Grand Central Parkway was at first the site of the line's roadbed.
Kevin,
I beleive that was part of the spur that went to the old Chicklet building. The spur ran south to a point were it went under the Long Island Viaduct that crossed over part of newton creek. The rail spur connected to the montauk branch. It fed a number of sidings.
avid
The "NYCTA BVE Routes" site has just noted that it will no longer produce BVE routes. It's switching to MSTS only. As I haven't yet seen any MSTS subway routes I'm wondering if this is good or bad news. Read more here:
http://communities.msn.com/NYCTABVERoutes/newspage.msnw
Alan Glick
I wish there were some MSTS routes for the NYCTA.
I just finished running the SEPTA Newark, DE to Philadephia. What a blast!
where did you get the setpa route for msts?
msts is way more advanced and some nyc addons WOULD BE AWESOME...
There are PLENTY of add-on routes for MSTS out there. You might want to start by going to http://www.train-sim.com
They have plenty of add-on routes, activities, cars, locos, sounds, etc. It IS a tad tricky at first to add some stuff to MSTS, but once you've done it and gotten it working, you'll find it IS easy after all.
Thanks Steve...I registered but somehow their connections are to the max... BUT somehow if i spend 30 a year then i can get in!
any other sites you could recommend?
thanks :)
If you keep trying, you'll get in. I seem to get in early int he mornings (Friday/Saturday/Sunday on my days off) or even in mid-day.
Don't give up -- you'llget through. And sometimes you'll get through when you least expect it, like at 5 p.m. on a Monday night!
Downloaded it from the Train Sim website.
You have to go in and overwrite some files, but nothing major as long as you read the Readme file.
I'm off to drive another SEPTA train............
For those who cannot (or give up trying to...) get into the www.train-sim.com website File Library, Abacus Software came out with a "Roundhouse" add-on package that contains the extra NEC simulations. It also contains a really crappy Chicago CTA setup as well as additional locomotives (all foreign).
There IS a really good update file for the Northeast Corridor at the www.train-sim.com File Library (filename: NEC_v20.ZIP) that adds all the proper milepost locations (instead of every half-mile), adds the proper spacing of signals, proper speed limits, as well as all the commuter station platforms.
If y'all can't get into the www.train-sim.com site, lemme know and I can send you the file. I did save the ZIP-file after I unpackaged it. There are disclaimers in the package about the author not being responsible for anything it does to your computer -- but I have used it for over a week now and haven't had one ounce of problem with it.
Thats a nice route. I had trouble Unpacking the activities the first time but then redownloaded it and it worked like a charm
I wouldn't worry too much - there's MANY folks doing BVE routes with plenty yet in the pipeline. What was available over there was generally pretty lame and it wouldn't surprise me if they cowtowed to Microsoft who is none too happy about "competitive railfan games" and probably threatened those guys with potential loss of the site. I'm only guessing here, but I've done the "Microsoft hardball game" too many times to count so it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft "encouraged" the decision.
It's a pity they're giving up on BVE, but I'm not surprised. They weren't all that great at what they had. With the REQUIREMENT of an MSN passport to get to their downloads, I'm sure they weren't doing all that much traffic either.
As surely as Yee, Marrero and others continue to put time into BVE, BVE NYCTA lines will continue to appear. MSTS has its cutenesses for scenery but does not compare to BVE for the "operating experience" ...
From the looks of those screen shots of the BVE #7 line, I'd say you can be a lot more creative with new routes. Those three screen shots look exactly as I remember the line when Iused to ride it frequently inmy youth! Compliments to whoever created them.
That was Ernie Alstom's (hope I spelled it right) handiwork and yes, it truly is a work of art, especially when he did the completion to bring the train all the way into Main Street. It really IS as good as it looks all the way out and has the nice feature of all station announcements as well. Highly recommended KEEPER ...
Agreed.
There's only one problem with it though. Look at the schedule ;)
Actually that and shooting the tunnel out of Manhattan - leader's obviously dragging a few cars along the wood. But apparently it all falls off the el around Court Sq. and it's clear sailing from there. :)
Where else can you find NYC Routes for BVE. I have downloaded 2 the 7 and the R. I can't get the R to work.
Are there anymore NYC routes online??
G Train route and Franklin Shuttle. G is very nice too bad only to Court House Sq. but the Shuttle is something else. A MUST
Where can you find the (2) route?
I really want it!!!!!
I think he meant he found two (2) routes. The 7 and the R.
Yeah 2 routes.
Im looking to find more
does anyone have a website?
Also when you download the files how do you get the ones that require winzip to work?
The ones that self extract work fine.(the 7 train)
download the evaluation version of Winzip at www.winzip.com
YESSSSSSSSSSS Thank Jah!
Does anyone know if it is possible to have MSTS support third rail? or something like that, so routes/systems like NYCT dont have any of that catenary crap ( i love catenary but not in NYCT)
Someone made a Chicago Transit Authority system layo9ut, and they dropped the catenary down to the tracks. It's in between the rails.
Oh, and where one line comes out of a tunnel, meeting a line that's already on the surface, you have rails and ties hanging in mid-air.
Not such a good rendition. And to this Abacus Software actually released this layout in one of their "Roundhouse" MSTS add-on packs!!!!
are those Abacus packs any good? I was thinking of purchasing
To be honest, I was disappointed.
Every single item on the CD that Abacus markets is available for download from http://www.train-sim.com except that there are some documents added to better explain things.
The problem with http://www.train-sim.com and their File Library is that it is very busy and limited nodes available -- as they would prefer you pay a $30.00 per year "Premier Membership" which allows unlimited, no-waiting entry. (They also have this at their sister site, flight-sim.com)
I have not had too much trouble getting in to their File Libraries. I just try at various times of day....usually I have a two-hour break from work between 0945-1145, and have gotten in then. I've even gotten in when they say it's "peakusage periods" so mybest suggestion is to just keep trying.
yea I know. I have been a member of www.flightsim.com their main site since 1996 or 1997 I dont remember but that long. i've been a flightsimmer for a long time, I remember the times when one could get on any damn time. Those were the days. I still use my 5 year old account to access train-sim.com. I guess i wont waste my money then. So not worth to download the Chicago system. Thank a lot
and is that chicago layout worth downloading?
Nope. Genuine POS.
There's a couple places where a two-track subway comes out in the middle of two elevated tracks -- the elevated tracks are suspended in mid-air for half a mile!
The catenary was dropped to the tracks to simulate third rail. Only problem is, it's BETWEEN the rails, over switch frogs, etc.
The subway sections are horrid. Some "stations" just show up in the Track Monitor" with no platforms, no lighting, nothing. The better stations actually show up as a concrete catwalk, not like a subway station as the ones on the various BVE screenshot pages look like.
There are various simulations set up -- for eachof the routes -- and some of them have many miles of "0" miles per hour restrictions. In other words, move through those areas, you are "written up" in the end-of-simulation evaluation for exceeding the 0 MPH speed limit. I ran the train at 110 kph down the whole Brown Line with no stopping, and exceeded that 0 MPH speed limit for 10 solid minutes. Imagine what it would be if you did prototypical speeds and made the station stops.
No scenery except in downtown Chicago.
lol, damnnnn, Try running backwards on the 0mph restrictions, you'd be going in negatives.
Heh. Gotta love it ... put 25kV on the ground. :)
Heheheh, that'll keep too many winos from urinating on the third rail like that one did at CTA a few years ago.....
Been done in NYC as well ... I am amused though that MSTS is so limited that you can't lose the cat wires ... with BVE, you have to go to extra effort to put them *IN* ... heh.
Yes, you CAN get rid of the catenary wires in MSTS. I think it was the CTA system author's intention to drop them to the rails to create "third rail".
When opening the route editor, (not sure of the specific way I found it...) there is a box to check for "Electrified Track". If the box IS checked, then it brings up a box wherein you set the catenary height. The CTA system height is set at 0.5 meters!!
Whoops! Have to admit, dunno MSTS ... had way too many problems with it, nuked it and spent it on MS Orifice instead. Glad to know you can lose it though ...
I think BVE is the better train sim. I've heard from others that MSTS is crap compared to it.
What LITTLE of it I managed to get working before I got tired of it sheeting the bed and "You *FAILED* to shut down Windows properly the last time I crashed, now you're going to be PUNISHED with a disk scan" just wasn't worth the lack of thrill to NEC operations ... Sorry, I've done the "cab thing" for a living and REAL trains have "physics" ... BVE is the closest I've come to having my TWU handles again ...
MSTS is neat with the "if I were Darwin bait" out of the car experiences, but REAL train operators know that a train has "feel" ... MSTS does NOT ... take it for what my comments are worth tho' ...
YES IT IS possible!! The route editor gives you 3 options of "electrified track"--Catenary, THIRD RAIL, and none (not in that specific order...I tried making up a line from the LIRR using the 3rd Rail option...suffice it to say I mapped the tiles wrong :(
(BTW, if anyone IS working on any of the NY Area systems, PLEASE tell me...I'm dying to try one or two of 'em...I hate just driving the NEC at midnight-11am *lol*)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Since Pataki and the upstate Republicans plan on cutting subway service prior to the election, and then stick a fare increase to the city after the election, I have a nasty idea for getting even. It probably requires NYC to redeem the subways from their bondage to the MTA.
I would make entry into the GC (Lex, 7, shuttle) and Penn Station stations (7th and 8th Av) a premium fare zone -- say double or triple the usual fare.
This would affect commuters from LI, NJ, Westchester etc. I can already hear these always-looking-for-a-government-handout Republicans complaining.
Just the (serious) threat of such a thing happening would probably shake some money loose.
Do it. Watch the economy of the city crumble.
Didn't Pataki repeal the commuter tax a while ago?
Where did you see plans on cutting subway service? I have a place where he can cut service and effect hardly anyone: send the M back to Chambers St. middays and go back to the old PM rush Bay Pkwy schedule and cut off the last 2 hours of service. Nobody will miss it becasue nobody rides! And I can get my old job back!
I would make entry into the GC (Lex, 7, shuttle) and Penn Station stations (7th and 8th Av) a premium fare zone -- say double or triple the usual fare.
This would affect commuters from LI, NJ, Westchester etc. I can already hear these always-looking-for-a-government-handout Republicans complaining.
Just the (serious) threat of such a thing happening would probably shake some money loose.
Actually, it will shake a lot of the city's biggest private employers loose, with a new exodus of jobs to the suburbs. Manhattan will be chock full of "see-through" skyscrapers. And, needless to say, transit ridership will go straight down the donicker.
Go right ahead. My employer has been cutting back, big time, and has a number of nice buildings in New Jersey that they'd love to lease or sublease. Make it that much more expensive for the suits to get into the City and voilá! my employer's cash flow problem will be solved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The 'working poor' travel into my neighborhood to provide services and leave at the end of the day. Some have inflated union salaries...many work for what they can get. TA cannot place a new burden on the backs of people 'not making it.' I'm watching NJT...dreams of opening up the Lakawanna Cut to Scranton Pa.....residents of Blairstown NJ are fighting a railroad station. With all the talk on this board about lines of the subways, not one person has ever mentioned the fact that there is no subway that goes directly from Bronx to Queens. The subway is THE way to go to work for most New Yorkers...shame it's so damn slow in the early hours. CI Peter
My point is that the City needs to play hardball with the suburbs, at least insofar as transit is concerned. It would take a mayor of considerable testicular fortitude to do it, but serious plans to shut down services for suburban commuters, and a willingness to actually do it, would go a long way towards shaking the pocketbooks of Republican suburban commuters and their elected Republican representatives.
To say the least, the Donald-types would be having fits, leaning all over Albany and Washington.
The blunt truth of the matter is that for all the nice office space Jersey has, it cannot equal the quantity Manhattan has, and never will.
New York needs to flex its muscles.
New York City is no shrinking violet.
The very title of your thread goes along way to explain why NYC is so beloved in much of the country.
NYC currently has the sympathy of a lot of the country who are being more than generous to a city that they haven't much liked, and vice versa. New Yorkers should take to heart Macbeth's comment to his wife:
"I have bought
Golden opinions from all sorts of people,
Which would be worn now in their newest gloss,
Not cast aside so soon."
Lasy Macbeth had other ideas. Remmber how it turned out. ;-)
Actually, making it more expensive to live and work in NYC than in the suburubs, or in North Carolina for that matter, has been federal and state policy for some time. With a little help from Osama, they just might kill the golden goose this time.
I'm going to risk an outrage here, but I'd like to offer a perspective that might not have occurred before and does appear to have some historical validity. I throw this out SOLELY in the interest of soliciting opinions and allowing people a new concept to bite into for a change. My comments and thoughts will be full of inconsistencies, inaccuracies and conjecture. Folks who know me here know that there ain't a racist bone in my body, so PLEASE don't take it in that direction. Transit is only a small piece, but I'll fit it in here as well.
If you LIVE in New York City, you're screwed. It isn't a government plot, it's New York City's WHOLE PURPOSE! Much like parents and their children, if you got along famously, let's face it, the kids would NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE! There is a purpose to it after all. :)
New York City has ALWAYS been America's "melting pot" ... a CONVENIENCE for newcomers from other lands. You have neighborhoods throughout the city and its boroughs that have always been GHETTOS (of Italian origin I think) where people(s) of similar culture and mindsets tend to accumlate. We've seen it since the Dutch, and all that have come since. People of a similar culture tend to move to locations throughout the city where they can feel comfortable, be among people of their own language and culture. New York has always accomodated this, even if the "newbies" tend to land in the worst neighborhoods owing to their own economic realities and what they can find that they can feel comfortable living in for the price.
I've noticed that in my own growing up, neighborhoods that had once been Italian tended to be replaced by blacks, whereas neighborhoods that were once predominantly Irish became Hispanic over time, where Polish predominated, along came Greeks and on and on as each new wave of immigrants comes to the US and tries to form roots, caught between their original culture and "turning American" ...
This process usually doesn't occur to the first, and in some cases, the SECOND generation of the various immigrants to the city. These tend to cling to the "birthing chair" and live their entire lives in the City. By the third generation though, if not sooner, New York City becomes too much of an impediment and eventually, immigrant populations disperse to other places in America once they are capable of "fitting in" ... when this occurs, another wave of immigrants comes and settles in on their own individual family journeys. At least this is what I've observed, be it right or wrong.
New York seems to have historically been a place where you DON'T need a car (a luxury to immigrants), possesses one of the FINEST transportation systems (literally a City which was designed to be *USED* rather than contributed to) and provides plentiful opportunities to make a living and enough of a population where, if you don't get it right the first time, can "going out of business" until you DO get it right. Literally, NYC is a newborn ward, and the concept is once you get your chops together, GET OUT! There's other people waiting for that hovel you're living in and they'll LIKE it.
I've gone as far with this as I have time for as I'm insanely busy and don't want to put a whole lot of time into a concept if it's going to end up deleted after descending into a possible pit, but thought the observation might drum up some thought and a new understanding as to the purpose of New York City. If you're ready to take your sidewalk act anywhere, maybe many of us have outgrown New York City and we don't realize the purpose. Am I wrong? (not that THAT would be news - heh)
I agree with the broad outlines of your post. Only recently (after umpty years of study) have I really appreciated the extent to which New York is a "temporary" city.
The subject is so complex that I don't want to say too much or risk a post 10x longer than yours. But there are two points I want to make.
One is that dispersion of population has been a goal of city planners going back over a century. Dispersion of population is the raison d'etre. for the mode of transportation we all enjoy and gab about on this board. It wasn't merely the goal of the Federal government and the highway builders, it was the goal of the Transit Commission, of the Dual Contracts, of the BMT and IRT.
The second is that the City spends too much of its efforts trying to squeeze people outside of the City (who have their own lives and problems) and too little building up its own excellences and making the City more attractive to live in.
Consider two other nearby cities that tried to better the City by means other than internal improvement. Philadelphia's wage tax (suburbanites pay the same rate as city dwellers) made it that much CHEAPER and more attractive for businesses outside the City to hire people and grow. And that's what happened. Philaldelphia was so poor by the time Street became mayor that they were replacing traffic ights with stop signs at many intersections to save money.
And then there's Washington D.C., where my brother lives. When Barry was Mayor he thought that a way to improve the City was to pay City employees much more money, thereby creating a new black middle class for D.C. Instead he created a new black middle class in Prince Georges County, Maryland.
This is America, not Soviet Russia in the era of internal passports. You can't force people to be governed by an administration hostile to their interests. They will vote with their feet.
The two mayors who improved the City the most since WWII (Koch and Giuliani) are the two who spent the most time on reforming the City and making it more attractive and the least time on trying to demand outside "help."
If you LIVE in New York City, you're screwed. It isn't a government plot, it's New York City's WHOLE PURPOSE!
Quite true, if you're a renter. Things are a lot better for homeowners, however, as property taxes in the city are a huge bargain compared to the suburbs.
New York City has ALWAYS been America's "melting pot" ... a CONVENIENCE for newcomers from other lands. You have neighborhoods throughout the city and its boroughs that have always been GHETTOS (of Italian origin I think) where people(s) of similar culture and mindsets tend to accumlate.
"Ghetto" was first used centuries ago as a name for the Jewish quarter of Venice. I'm not sure what it means in Italian.
This process usually doesn't occur to the first, and in some cases, the SECOND generation of the various immigrants to the city. These tend to cling to the "birthing chair" and live their entire lives in the City. By the third generation though, if not sooner, New York City becomes too much of an impediment and eventually, immigrant populations disperse to other places in America once they are capable of "fitting in" ... when this occurs, another wave of immigrants comes and settles in on their own individual family journeys. At least this is what I've observed, be it right or wrong.
You are correct that New York has a "transient" population in comparison to most other places. This can have less-than-favorable consequences - to give one example, people on the Upper East Side may be lackadasical when it comes to demanding construction of the Second Avenue line because most of them know they'll be gone from the city before the line's ever completed. New York would be better off if it didn't have such a transient population. Whether that's anything that can be changed is another matter.
New York seems to have historically been a place where you DON'T need a car (a luxury to immigrants), possesses one of the FINEST transportation systems (literally a City which was designed to be *USED* rather than contributed to)
It's not just immigrants who might find it a real advantage not to need a car.
"Ghetto" was first used centuries ago as a name for the Jewish quarter of Venice. I'm not sure what it means in Italian.
Il ghetto means the foundry. The Ghetto in Venice was behind a factory.
(If you LIVE in New York City, you're screwed. It isn't a government plot, it's New York City's WHOLE PURPOSE!
Quite true, if you're a renter. Things are a lot better for homeowners, however, as property taxes in the city are a huge
bargain compared to the suburbs.)
Ah, but don't forget the local income tax. Factor that in, and NYC homeowners pay about the same as suburbanites with similar incomes. Those in co-ops and condos pay even more. And those who are self employed have a second local personal income tax to pay, the unincorporated business tax.
Plus, those in the rest of the state get public education for their children, but most of those in NYC do not. Add $7,000 to my burden for parochial school.
You can see the result in the numbers. NYC has an above average share of the state's young adults and elderly, but the share goes down once children reach age 5, and again as they reach middle school age. Parents follow their state taxes out of town, and the federal taxes out of state.
If you LIVE in New York City, you're screwed. It isn't a government plot, it's New York City's WHOLE PURPOSE! Much like parents and their children, if you got along famously, let's face it, the kids would NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE! There is a purpose to it after all. :)
Maybe that's the way it was in olden times. Many generations of the same family would live under the same roof. Daughters were given away to live with another household. As soon as society made it practical to live apart, people would immediately do so. No matter how good one's parents are, few want to be dominated by another if they can help it. How is it that the vast City of New York is less dominant than a small suburban village?
New York City has ALWAYS been America's "melting pot" ... a CONVENIENCE for newcomers from other lands. You have neighborhoods throughout the city and its boroughs that have always been GHETTOS (of Italian origin I think) where people(s) of similar culture and mindsets tend to accumlate.
That is a remarkably small-minded view. By your logic, the city consists of nothing but the poor inner city. That all of those people who live on the Upper East Side are poor immigrants. By far the worst of your assumptions is that living comfortably requires living far from the city. The last time people moved from cities in droves, Latin died as a common language. I consider moving to the suburbs to be the same as moving to a medieval manor, it is the vacuum of civilization, it lacks the cultural foundations upon which civilization is rooted.
This process usually doesn't occur to the first, and in some cases, the SECOND generation of the various immigrants to the city.
Well, I guess I'm doomed to living in a ghetto like my immigrant parents. It's a good thing it's a nice place where both immigrants and natural-born citizens can confuse their house prices for phone numbers.
New York seems to have historically been a place where you DON'T need a car (a luxury to immigrants), possesses one of the FINEST transportation systems (literally a City which was designed to be *USED* rather than contributed to)
Hmmm, so I guess that if a fine transit system is a product of a city which is built for use as opposed to contribution, then a contributive city would be charactarized by the constant use of space-wasting, 2000 pound pollution generators.
I've gone as far with this as I have time for as I'm insanely busy
If I believed in God, I'd thank him (or her) for that. I don't mean that to offend you or any of the other ideas you put forth, just this one.
Didn't intend to stereotype, or claim that people who live in the city are poor ... and CERTAINLY ain't painting "suburbs" as a panacea ... am I describing old times gone by? Very likely. My POINT though was that a good portion of people that live ELSEWHERE can trace their origins back to the city, a place that made it POSSIBLE for immigrants to come in, learn to be "an American" and move on ... New York City made this possible. Could you imagine someone who spoke no English, had no knowledge of how the "game" works here moving into Keokuk and having a fair shot at it?
I think you may have read in FAR more than I ever intended into those words. My point is that America should be GRATEFUL that New York City provided the "training wheels" that built the rest of this nation. The vast majority of people who came to New York City eventually moved on. That's all ...
I don't doubt that New York is an excellent training ground for America, however what I implied (correct me if I am wrong), that New York is only for training, and it is improper to ride around on two wheels in NY.
Absolutely not my own point at all ... seriously, thanks for asking. My whole point is that New York is one of the FEW places where immigrants had a chance to actually shift gears and work into a brand new society - that New York, owing to its incredible diversity and constantly moving configurations, ALLOWS newcomers a place to get their "training wheels" ...
Of COURSE there's folks who live in NYC for dozens of generations, who love it, call it home and couldn't possibly live anywhere else. Those attractions are also what make it possible for New York City to be a launching pad for others. It's ALWAYS been among the most "international" of cities with dozens of languages spoken. Nothing new to this which is why I couldn't believe John Rocker's complaints when he came to visit a couple of years ago.
But if you're looking for a racist angle, I can assure you there's none. But New York WAS and IS intended as merely a stepping stone for most people that land here from other places and that's all I meant.
LOCK ON LOAD SelkirkTMO!!!!!!!! American Pig does not understand that improvements in life means 'Diaspora from NYC.' CI Peter
American Pig does not understand that improvements in life means 'Diaspora from NYC.'
Well, certainly if all of those people who are brain-damaged enough to prefer suburban life to urban life did move out, there would be more space left in NYC for the sane population.
So you are right!
Heh. Let's also not forget that there's more than urban and SUBurban life - most of "America" is actually RURAL, and that's even more removed of a life from those who live in the BIG or LITTLE city. :)
I know about rural areas, my beef is with the suburbs, the rurals do not bother me, they are necessary and not evil.
I *knew* we'd agree ... nothing like yanking on a warm teat at 5am when Bossie REALLY wants you to ... like I said, if you and I can get past the age gap, we really DO agree ... country living REALLY imposes what's IMPORTANT in life - being around other people you can TRUST and also know they can TRUST YOU ... I'm sorry, but there's no more VALUABLE commodity in life that people you can TRUST ... especially in these times ...
THAT is why I love upstate ... "suburbs" are merely a pretense, and false one at that ... unless a whole lot of mindsets of the past die fast. Up where *I* live, we have to trust our *LIVES* to our neighbors ... 'nuff said ...
prefer suburban life
Because of population growth and general changes in the world, much of New York City was more like some of the older surburbs than you realize--I mean the suburbs built around a downtown area.
The Babylon Village of 2002 is more like the Flatbush of the 1950s that I grew up in than the Flatbush of 2002 is like Flatbush in the 1950s.
I blame part of that on City administrations that don't give a damn for neighborhoods or local services.
There's no outrage it. It'sd your opinion; you're entitled to it.
I've always liked the city. I find NYC to be the ultimate chameleon. If I want to behurried and stressed, the city will be hurried and stressed around me. If I want to be lazy and laid back, the city will be lazy and laid back and peaceful around me.
I can row in a lake, play golf, see a show, go to work, lose myself in the woods, eat every kind of food imaginable, read in the world's most magnificient library and do it all without a car.
New York doesn't squeeze the burbs. It never has, and it doesn't have to. The suburbs squeeze themselves. They lack vision and leadership, and overtax their citizenrry, and give poor services in return.
Maybe you feel screwed. I never did.
Just for a quick clarification, never did the 'burbs ... can't imagine how I could manage living in neat little cookie cutter houses on little sheets of land. I went from living in the Bronx straight out to log cabin country. I prefer the latter myself. :)
The suburbs help bring you into a routine. Some say that is dull but to me it is relaxing. You get used to it. In my case I can always take a trip to the Big City, thoroughly enjoy myself with the knowledge that I can taste the sights and smells of New York and then go back to my routine. I call it variety. If y ou live in the city all your life you cannot imagine this, but those of use to have migrated from big city to the suburbs know this very well. Nothing against living in the city, it is just what they call different strokes for different folks. As an example, my buddy Brighton Beach Bob still considers himself a died-in-the-wool New Yorker even though he left there just four years after I did. In other words, one person's perfume could be another person's poison, or vise versa.
I could NEVER do the suburbs ... I had family in various suburban settings - the parents had their cocktail haunts, the kids were bored out of their minds ... "velveetaland" is how many summed up the experience. At least out in the sticks where I am, there's no "keeping up with the Joneses" and you don't have the ubiquitous two foot by four foot lawn that people complain about having to mow. :)
I basically went completely the other way - moving from 6 story walkups to moocows. I'm happy ...
Sounds like you're happy. Here is my take on it, though. I think a one way lifestyle, whether it's out in the country like you, the suburbs like me, or the city like Italian Guy in SI or someone like that, it could get real boring. A think a vacation change of pace is just what the doctor ordered. You get variety, then can return to your roots. We suburbanites don;t all keep up with the Joneses. Those people are 14 karat phonies. Hell, I still drive my '86 Toyota.
My car is a 1985 palomino ... only thing that gets through in this weather. Heh. If it gums up, we've got glue. But yeah, every treadwheel needs a break - for us it was Kissmoose in Noo Yawk terrorizing TA employees all over the system. Everyone had fun, especially Nancy who FINALLY got a genuine TA brake handle in her hot little hands and got to turn it a few times. :)
Amen to that
>> My employer has been cutting back, big time, and has a number of nice buildings in New Jersey that they'd love to lease or sublease. <<
Yes. Jersey City, for example, is making a comeback and would be thrilled to see NY shoot itself in the foot.
Why don't all you 'whine-o-crats' just stop to see what happens before predicting the worst?
If one's objective is to encourage, rather than discourage the use of public transportation, then one should seek to make all of an areas transportation systems work as a unified whole, rather than a bunch of separate parts.
While Chicago isn't exactly a shining example of such unity, at least they do offer "link up" passes as an add on to Metra monthly tickets to allow suburban rail commuters who transfer to CTA busses and L trains a discount. This makes much more sense than charging them a premium fare because they come in from out of town.
-- Ed Sachs
How does this PATCO door controller work? Its ajacent to the side door and looks to be used for both that door and the adjacent door.
At 125th Street on the Lex, a R-142 pulls into the Northbound express track. Announces it is a 5. Displays 5. I get on. I get into a heated argument with some idiot who insists it's a 5. We get to 149 GCC on the lower level. The train reverts back to 2 mode, signs and announcements change. I stick my tongue out at the idiot. Also, Northbound 4 trains turned at 138th Street in the middle on the 6 line. Very interesting.
Needs a fixin....R142s will be #5s really soon. CI Peter
There is no reason for the 7 to not get 142's also.
It's bad enough my redbirds will drown, but we can't even get GOOD (just my opinion) trains to replace them.
Be patient.....U #7 guys will be gifted with the 'cream of the Redbirds' very soon. They run everyday, even with a few cars flashing yellow motor failure lights. You don't want my new trainsets yet. CI Peter
Hey......as long as the new trains are red.......I'm happy.....but they won't be.
Why don't they sell some parts? I want some R33 parts (sob sob)
Well, someone posted the contract to dispose of 150 cars in the Atlantic. I would suggest you check out the size of your backyard BUT the cars were stripped down to empty carbody. Would make great homes for the 'homeless' or diners if you replace the missing windows and doors. CI Peter
>>There is no reason for the 7 to not get 142's also.<<
The R-142 or 142As are not going to the #7 line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I know that....hence my post.
Used to be I rode the subways for simple transportation. NOW Car Inspector Peter rides and goes nutz: 'I know that noise, I could fix that door, that bulb is missing, this seat is loose' and so on. My friend, below your feet will be the sound of power that you may never had heard before. The only thing louder than the undercar 'miscarriage' will be the voices of other passengers in languages you don't comprehend or understand. Redbirds rock the Lex express run.....at 37 mph. CI Peter
Nobody has OFFICIALLY said the R-142 and/or R-142A cars will not be going to the #7 line. Nobody has OFFICIALLY said that they WILL. Nobody has OFFICIALLY said ANYTHING on the subject. Until somebody does, there is no point in asking about it or stating "facts."
David
That may have been the train I was on yesterday.
While riding a #6 Lex local northbound, just as we where south of 14th St, I saw what was an R-142 on the express track. At 14th St I boarded this standing room only train. It was a #2 set of R-142s running on the Lex.
Got off at Grand Central, waited for a couple of #4s to pass. Then a set of R-142s with DIAMOND #5 enters. It was a set of cars assigned to the #2. Took that to 149th & Grand Concourse so I can take a #2 southbound to Penn Station. This was after 5:00 PM.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey. If any of you guys won the lottery, would you buy a complete redbird? I'd buy two so they could run, and build a small track in my backyard! :)
I wish i had room for a complete redbird. Maybe i would chop it in half,and chop off the bottom portion so that I would only have half of the body,then I would put it in my living room.lol
Problem is coming up with the phenomenal amount of power needed just to make em move. Have you considered surplus Russian/Ukrainian battery powered cars? No third rail! CI Peter
Wrong gauge :-)
Arti
Right gauge IF you built your own track around your house from scratch. Now you guys have me really thinking about this....neat to have some little motorised work platforms buzzing through the woods. I could build a 'Rambo Special' with armor plate and heavy hardware. Problem is getting the rails delivered....they're a lot heavier than Lionel. CI Peter
The neighbors wouldn't be too happy....the sheer weight may cause your backyard to sink.
You and some friends could buy one, I know a place you could store it. They would even teach you how to operate it.
Mr rt__:^)
EVERYBODY SING!
"If I had a million gallons, I'd BUY YOU A HOSE" ... (TA song) ...
If Everybody says it together, then we can make the AFLAC duck say "ANTHRAX!" ... all it takes is a dollar and a dream, and we let you KEEP the dollar!" :)
Got that right ... just a dream, some elbow grease & a Million dollars.
Actually if you knock off a couple of zeros you would be closer to the cash required ... well that was BEFORE everybody started saying the "A" word.
Mr rt__:^)
Heh. PT Barnum. director of Looto ... but yeah, back in the days of the Holy Ronan Empire, that was the "song of the R9" ... "If we had a million dollars, we'd buy you a hose" ...
I'd restore the Mineola.
A small track in your backyard? I'd buy the West Side IRT southbound express track between 96 and Chambers, running the Redbird on its home turf. I'd consider leasing it back to the TA, but my train gets priority.
funny enough I was on it at about 5:30 ish.....about a 15 minute delay in the tunnel.
Sorry for the delay but Chatham Square is open tonight. Please point your browsers to www.subtalklive.com.
It was posted on subtalk recently that the reason that there is no interconnection between the LIRR and the subways is because of certain FRA regulations. PATH somehow meets those regulations, so it can interconnect with NJT and Amtrak on the Northeast Corridor.
I saw a PATH car at the TRY TRANSIT Festival in Hoboken this past September, right before Osama bin Lousy and his crew did their thing. How do those tiny cars used by PATH meet the FRA guidelines, but the MTA subway cars do not? Next to the other passenger cars, the PATH car looked like a toy. Anybody out there care to explain? I sure cannot see how, but maybe I am missing something.
PATH cars run regular revenue FRA trackage...NYC subways do not. I would like uniformity and standards....my R142s could run LIRR if they had a few mods.....TD is the 'answer man' for this one. CI Peter
The old H&M ran with the PRR from JSQ to NWK-Penn Station. PRR had several K cars for the joint operation. Each MU meets ICC/FRA requirements such as buffer strength, corner steps on eack car, blue card inspection, front window defogger, etc. (the R-44 in SI means these requirement too!)
Somewhere at one time, the H&M ran on the very same track as the PRR and had several switches to connect to PRR mainline.
Actually the H&M shared a ROW with PRR from the Portal (where it came out of the tunnel) through JSQ, west to Newark. It reach Newark in 1911 and began using Penn Station Newark in 1935.
The H&M ran on PRR tracks, no ifs ands or buts. The cars were dispatched by PRR interlocking towers and PRR dispatchers. They ran with both PRR passenger and freight trains. Today all the connections except one ot two have been removed.
I think you have it backwards. It is not the FRA regulations that keep the subway and the LIRR separate; it has been the TA's decision to keep the subway separate in order to avoid the additional expense of compliance with FRA regulations. PATH's current status as part of the national railroad system, subject to FRA regulations, shows that a subway-type operation need not be kept separate. On the other hand, I suspect that PATH would also be kept separate if it were being built today. Its current status probably results from its origins as the only rail connection between New York and New Jersey prior to the digging of the PRR tunnel. Before PATH's predecessor, the H&M, dug its tunnel, every railroad from the west to the NY City area ended in Hudson County, New Jersey.
Correct! So wouldn't the system be more uniform and safer if FRA regs ruled??? How much is one human life worth (excluding surfers???) CI Peter
IMO, the main issue for avoiding FRA regs isn't the mods. When the SIRT considered purchasing some surplus Triplexes, they received a study from a rail-knowledgeable professional engineer listing the changes needed to make them FRA-compliant. It wasn't that much.
I would bet the real issue is that each electric car with a cab is considered a "locomotive" requiring stringent periodic FRA inspections. The cost of the these inspections (plus the discomfort of external oversight) might be what the TA wants to avoid.
An additional possibility I'm not certain of is whether T/Os and C/Rs would have to pass FRA tests every three years. These tests are not a walk in the park--I know experienced personnel on the LIRR who spend quite a bit of time studying when their tests are coming up.
This could add enormously to the TA's training and personnel costs, and raise other labor issues. They also might have to pay employees more and hire more carefully.
Is it the cabs or the motors that make them locomotives or is it only if both are present in the same car?
Generally, all subway cars are motorised as they would be considered self-propelled. Irregardless, a system under FRA rules means trackage, signals and trainsets. Upgrading the subway would cost big bucks to bring out of 'museum status.' I'm all for it and a commensurate increase in fare. CI Peter
"Is it the cabs or the motors that make them locomotives or is it only if both are present in the same car?"
No. It is the motors. Railroads run many cabless "B" locomotives.
Look in the cab of any LIRR car, and you will see the Locomotive Inspection Report.
Elias
Like I said, subway cars have motors. CI Peter
Paul, all I can say is that my crew would be happy to learn and work. CI Peter
my crew would be happy to learn and work
I have no doubt, Peter. But I know the bureaucratic mindsight: "if they the guys know more, do more, they're gonna want more." And you think the TA, freed from the PSC and the Transit Commission the BMT and IRT had to deal with wants something Federal looking over their shoulders?
I know.....it's not the work, it's politics.
Bada-bing ... you've pretty much named all of the angles there and your FRED on the end of the train is in touch. Folks who work "real railroads" have a tremendous disdain for "rapid transit types" owing to the different requirements for an FRA cert and the nature of the work on "big trains" ... they ARE however impressed by rapid transit headways and how fast tracks can be put back in service after an "event" ... but yes, by what you raise, a transit authority would have to be INSANE to go the FRA route when there are alternatives that keep the costs lower ...
Forget costs.....spend the money.....or provide a fleet of 'cuchifrito limousino black cars.' The new tech fleet is being chewed up by rail beds one hundred years old. Pan clips and track geometry cars a subway does not make. LOL CI Peter
Unlimited funds can do unlimited things. Natch ... that's easy. Keeping a 100 year old museum rolling every day takes a lot of hard work by a lot of people. Don't sell yourself and your partners short. And I *know* you aren't. But the new tech fleet shoulda known what they was getting themelves into and should be designed to handle it.
Having seen the 143's plying one of the older BMT lines without groaning is inspiration enough for me that it can still fly ...
I get cross-eyed looks from the people in charge because I'm a newbie. Even the 'Maintainers B' guys in the wheel cutting department have difficulty understanding my explanations when someone called them out on tread brake shoe worn off-round. My prediction is that R142 trucks will be redesigned or replaced in five years. Kawasaki R142A/143 trucks do not have axles floating like Bombardier made. Just fixing axles to move only up-down would fix 95% of TBU problems of record. The biggest problem to be overcome will be the equipment made to give the public that smooth ride.......only trackage upgrade could make it work. Bombardier did not design a car for our trackage just like GM/Ford/Chrysler does not make a car for city streets. The Kawasaki trainsets win hands down with solid trucks. CI Peter
Perhaps we'll see a redo of the Rockwell truck fix ... Kawa gets an option order for enough of THEIR trucks for the fleet with mods, Bomba cuts a check. The geometry of the lines themselves doesn't really permit retrofit of rails, so it's gonna be the rolling stock. When it comes to a choice between a SMOOTH ride and having a ride at all, I'll opt for "yes, ride please" ... :)
One thing to consider is that PATH has engineers while the TA has Train Operators. PATH engineers belong to the BLE and as a rule are paid more. They are also federally licensed and meet more stringent requirements.
AND that is the way to go TD....T/Os carry more 'souls' than pilots. CI Peter
How much more safety are you buying with that money? The NYC subway system is, statistically, already a very very safe system to ride, thanks to Train Dude and his crews and to very consciencious train crews. Introducing FRA compliance may use up $$$ that could be better spent, even safety-wise, elsewhere. Rehab more stations, fix lighting, platforms, install elevators, maintain funding for police officers and police dogs to ride trains and patrol stations, pay for a new snow-blower car to deal with the next blizzard...
This is not totally unlike debates we have in medicine. Yes, we could spend $1 million more to buy a really exotic new antibiotic, and yes it would cure a few more infections, but our pot of money is finite, and that $1 million could also buy a lot more regular vaccines which could save many more lives...
Makers for interesting debate, certainly.
I meant, "Makes for interesting debate."
I'll stick with FRA compliance because it means more uniform equipment, more training, culling out the unqualified........cuz TA work is EXCELLENT work. CI Peter
I don't know. Some claim that subway-type equipment and the uses to which they are put are sufficiently different from long haul operations and their equipment that the rules should be different. An example that comes to mind is the requirement -- so I've been told -- that a train be inspected after each run. That makes a lot more sense if each trip is from Boston to Washington than if it is from Grand Central to Times Square. Is it a question of FRA or nothing? Are there any safety regs that apply to the TA beyond those it or the MTA choose to adopt?
Correct. The conclusion that the TA must have come to was that FRA compliance is not cost-effective for the subway. Too much $$$ for marginal return.
The world of railroads vs. the world of transit is sort of like the wild west vs. a city. FRA regs are designed to make things safe in this harsh environment. First of all, PATH mas many many waivers that exempt them from many FRA regularions. Full compliance would require things like grab irons, hi-intensity headlights, ditch lights, event recorders in every locomotive, every self propelled vehicle would have to meet locomotive inspection requirements, new cars would be required to meed new passenger car strength requirements (PATH is exempt) that are something like 800,000 pounds on a trailer and 1,000,000 pounds on a leading car. Subway track would have to meet FRA standards and much much more.
Let us not forget the many waivers that the PA had for twin towers. NYFD has no equipment capable of putting out a fire above 68 stories. CI Peter
"Let us not forget the many waivers that the PA had for twin towers. NYFD has no equipment capable of putting out a fire above 68 stories."
Correction: FDNY has no equipment to reach above the 6th floor (100' on old buildings or the 10th floor on newer buildins where they just squeezed more flors into that same 100')
Once a building gets bigger than that, it must have its own fire fighting equipment, in the form of standpipes, sprinklers, fire-water tamnks etc.
All NYC buildings require a Fire Safety Director, with an updated fireplan, evacuation routes and proceedures, and hopefully their own fire department right in the building. Most buildings in New York City can hold more people than live in our city, yet we have a fire department with several trucks etc etc. Anybody who wants to build a tall building needs to provide the same. He collects the rent, he provides the services.
(decending the soap box) Elias
There are special FDNY units equipped to handle high rise fires...tall buildings are required by law to provide 'fire pumps' and fire suppression systems. PA property is foreign soil: exempt from NYC building codes. I guess you are not old enough to remember 'superpumper' and 'supertanker.' Even 'rapidwater' is almost obsolete. The idea is to provide enough water at high altitudes....not a ladder. I once worked in one of the buildings that had three floors melt...the incident was responsible for 'Fire Department Contols' installed on elevators and elimination of the 'heat sensitive' floor request buttons. CI Peter
I toured the LIRR's Hillside Facilllity with the Transit Museum and the FRA issues came up. Train Dude, Jeff H feel free to chime in, but the maintenace frequency is stricter, tolerance for parts is stricter (ie if a braske shoe can be .50 for non-FRA it might be .65 for FRA) meaning parts must be replaced sooner.Also I believe FRA requires full train inspection prior to each run rather than once per day.
The FRA requires a simple daily inspection and a really annoying 62-day inspection. The unit must get a 62-day if it has been run or not in that time and this pisses off shortlines and private owners to no end. They are trying to get the rule changed to something like "operational days."
Interstate vs. intrastate. Different rules which are to the advantage to the TA.
I know this is SubTalk not BusTalk but I read the messages here more often.I dont know if any of the MA people here have seen the Paul Revere Transportation buses or not but they are the worst maintained, and most disgusting buses I have ever seen. Someone told me that they are rejects from New York. They spew out more smoke than some steam engines ive seen. They go by my house about 20 times a day and they are very loud. I will try to find a picture to show you what they look like.
RTS, MCI, 870, or what?
not sure i dont know much about buses.lol
I will have to take my own pictures since their website has picture of these nice big luxurious buses not the sh*tboxes that we have.lol
According to the Urban Transit Club roster, Crystal Transport up in the Boston area bought the following NYCTA RTS buses: 3966, 4167, 4191. There is no listing for Paul Revere, but that is not necessarily conclusive. RIPTA in Providence bought a dozen or more ex-NYCTA RTS buses.
Sid, you didn't read far enough :). Paul Revere has 25 ex-NYCT RTSes: ten 1982s, eleven 1984s, and four 1985s. They're not "rejects," they're just second-hand.
Guess what??? There are a lot of private buslines out there that get away with excessive diesel emissions for the very reason we're discussing the costs of a fare hike on the poor working schlubs. Some of those buslines have (forgive me David Pirmann) 'ethnic connections' that allow them to squeeze by. What I know from firsthand experience is that time and justice will catch up to them...like the bus on the way to Great Gorge that had no brakes. The NYC subway may be slow but it is safe...our trainsets do stop when commanded. CI Peter
PUH-LEASE, let's not start with a bus vs. train debate. Besides, as long you have 40+ year old cars running that are crumbling as I type, I won't consider your division very safe. But I digress......
I know this is SubTalk not BusTalk but I read the messages here more often.
Is that any reason to post a bus question here? I think not. Post it over there where interested people are likely to read it, instead of here where you get uninterested people annoyed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
if your not interested dont read it ok?
Is that any reason to post a bus question here? I think not.
Yes -- Lexcie doesnt have time to read Subtalk AND Bustalk, and Lexcie knows the answer to the question posed about Paul Revere buses.
I dont know if any of the MA people here have seen the Paul Revere Transportation buses or not but they are the worst maintained, and most disgusting buses I have ever seen. Someone told me that they are rejects from New York
Paul Revere is something else. I'm not 100% sure about the legislations involved but basically Paul Revere was created to dodge around two pieces of legislation: (a) The fact that bus routes in MA outside Boston has to be placed out to competitive tendering, and (b)MBTA aren't allowed to enlarge their diesel fleet anymore, because of MA environmental regulations. Sounds like it makes sense, but that's why MBTA hasn't had new buses in years and years. And that's also why there is such a service shortage. They found a way of getting around this -- by farming the out-of-town routes to Paul Revere, they can work the diesel buses by the back door. Way to go, MBTA. These stupid legislators should have thought about how to provide transit if they don't give MBTA $ to buy new low emission buses when they signed over the environmental legislation.
Lexie Im not sure but I believe Paul Revere is subsidised by the MBTA. Besides the X-GeneraManager James F. OLeary runs the copany and many retired and active MBTA Employees work for the company.
I am looking for as many pictures of the 30th Street station in Philadelphia.
I want pictures of the upper platform outside, the main concourse, the Amtrak platforms and everything.
If anyone can get me links or send me pictures (email me first and I'll get your an alternate address for you to send to), I would GREALTY appreciate it.
Thank you for your time.
Is Hpiladelphia located anywhere near Philadelphia? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Very funny.
I am QUITE hopped up on cold medicine. Please excuse my misspellings.
Alright, but someone had to change it to "Philadelphia"
Maybe someone can answer my question. :p
Has anybody seen the music video of "Romantic Traffic" by the "Spoons" or know where I could look to find a copy? I've had little success hunting it down and I'd like to see it as the whole thing was shot in the Toronto subway in the early 80s with lots of customary Gloucster shots - including a G2 leading a train into a station, so I'm told...
-Robert King
I have been away since New Years looking for a job(still unsucessful)and I have stumbled on something on NY1.com, it says there will be no more Cortland street(If I spelled it wrong than sorry). Has my eye's been playing tricks on me or has my suggestion on Subtalklive been answered. If my suggestion was answered than is it true the Q is getting some R46's and the 5 is getting some R142's. If not than 1 out of 3 isn't bad.
Cortlandt.
It will eventually come back. The current station will be demolished and the line will otherwise be restored. At a later date, a new station will be built roughly where the old one was.
If you've seen the photos here, I'm sure you'll agree that the current Cortlandt is basically unusable.
A few R-142's have shown up on the 5. This weekend in particular, the 2 is running up the East Side, and apparently some such trains are signed as 5's.
As for R-46's on the Q, highly unlikely. The Q (both shapes) is out of Coney Island; the R-46's are only in Jamaica. When the circle-Q was extended to Queens to fill in for the R, it ran a mixed fleet from both yards, generally with R-68's and R-32's, but there was at least one R-46 sighting on the Brighton line.
And here it is. Doesn't this train look lost?
The closest analogy would be seeing R-10s on the F again.
I think they are going to try to get the rest of the line open first. After the new WTC takes shape, whatever that may be, Cortlandt will be rebuilt into the new complex. But right now, even if the station wasn't damaged as bad as it is, there would be no way to open it. There is nothing to walk outside to. At least with the rest of the line open again, normalicy can be brought back to the 7th Ave line.
A friend of mine just forwarded me the following press release from AP:
The Associated Press - 1/4/02
NEW YORK -- The No. 1 and 9 subway lines damaged in the Sept. 11
attacks are expected to be fixed by December --
about two years ahead of schedule, the governor said.
"This important subway line carries 600,000 people a day to home or
work, and restoration is critical to getting downtown
Manhattan back on its feet," Gov. George Pataki said Thursday.
The train lines, which run from the Bronx to the southern tip of
Manhattan, were closed south of Chambers Street
because more than 1,200 feet of tunnel collapsed in two different areas.
The Metropolitan Transit Authority said it hopes to reopen the tunnel
and its Rector Street and South Ferry stations as
early as December. A third station damaged in the attacks, Cortland
Street, will be demolished.
The cost for the repairs, to be covered by insurance, was not yet
disclosed.
The agency previously said the reconstruction of the destroyed sections
of the subway lines would take at least until
2004.
Demolition.
Wow, they're just getting rid of Cortlandt St altogether?
Wouldn't that station be useful for whatever is built on the WTC site when it's built?
Apparently, the station will not be replaced until something is built above it.
David
They will reopen a station there eventually, when they need it again.
Me and my family are going to be visiting NYC again this summer.
In the past we stayed in Darien Connecticut at the Hojo about 4 blocks from the MNRR New Haven Line "Darien" station. This year we looked into hotels in NYC, because of all that's happened, but even with 4, $68.00 weekly train passes, the hotel in Darien is still cheaper then any in NYC. Darien is nice because the town is very safe and quiet. I personally like noisy and crowded like Chicago, but my family prefers quiet for sleeping. I do enjoy the train ride into Grand Central though. The New Haven Line has an excellent schedule. I think it is really awesome that there is an express train for every local train on the New Haven Line. (Express from Stamford). This makes the commute from Darien easy. If only Metra would take after this on their busiest line, the BNSF that I live along. More DG Main Street Express trains need to be added, besides weekday rush hours and one in and one out on Saturdays.
Anyway, if you could recommend anywhere in the city or burbs to stay (that is within walking distance of a train station for the burbs), it would be greatly appreciated. The ride in from Darien is just under 1 hour one way, and that is the longest travel time my family can handle. They don't notice the duration of the ride because the majority of it is express.
Thanks in advance.
BJ
PS: Is Stillwell Ave./Coney Island under reconstruction currently?? How much will be done by this summer?? The station was really crappy on my last visit in 2000. If it is in the same condition as before I will just get off at W. 8th Ave, that station leads directly to the board-walk anyway and is a lot less dingy looking.
What kind of quelity are you looking for?
Arti
I can't remember the name of the place but there is a really cheap hotel that caters to mostly Japanese students. They do have a website.
The Holiday Inn Express in Queens. its like $100-$125 a night, which is cheap for NYC. and its a 4 block walk to the 7 train 40th street station. its right along the LIE, right by the Qns-Midtown Tunnel. 38th street and Hunters Pt. Av, LIC Queens. by subway, its less than 10 minutes to manhattan.......you get a perfect view of the skyline from almost any side street.
When my family and I stayed in NYC in December, we stayed at the Best Western Manhattan on 32nd Street between Broadway and 5th Avenue for only $109.00 per night. I don't know if that was a special just for that weekend or what but I do know you had to reserve online to get that rate. It's a great hotel, I highly recommend it.
Thank you for the advice so far.
To answer your question, we are looking for anywhere that is clean, safe, and near a train or subway station. Moderatley priced is good also. So far Darien is still the cheapest, $69.00 a night for two queens beds. The hotel also has a swimming pool, outdoors, and a restaurant. There is only one other place in the town that is open past lunch-time, but it does have pretty good food I must admit.
That Holiday Inn Express in Queens and the Hotels in Manhattan recommended don't sound bad, I will into them.
Thank you for your assistance and anymore you can offer.
BJ
Check out the major travel websites . Many hotels are offering great deals. I stayed at the Hudson hotel for $75 a night in December. The place was top notch
The Stillwell rehab is only just starting. The N has been evicted, and within the coming years the F and Q will be evicted as well.
I've stayed at the Larchmont at 27 W. 11th St. in the village during my last several visits to the city. It's a decent area by NYU, and the IND W. 4th St. station is a few blocks down 6th Ave. One point: it's a bed-and-breakfast hotel with shared bathrooms on each floor. IIRC it's under $100/night for a larger room and $70 for a small single room.
Thats not far from the rowhouse that the Weathermen destroyed back in 1970. Look for the red rowhouse that juts out at a weird angle that totally doesnt fit in with the rest of the row.....thats the place. i think its on that block, too. www.forgotten-ny.com has info on it
I use the website www.180096hotel.com Click on New York and enter the following info: # adults, children, # nights, etc. Click "sort on price" and the hotels will come up in ascending order.
I'm coming in next weekend for the holiday. I'm paying 243.66 (including tax) for 3 nights at Manhattan Broadway, 38th and 7th.
Michael
. . . since when has the Seventh Avenue 3 line been a 10-car line? That, and some 1 trains being non-OPTO R-62’s, thus enabling passengers to look out the front (or back) windows. I know that the latter would have to do with the events of last Sept. 11, but the former . . . ?
It is all Sept. 11 related. Since the 3 is operating a shorter route and the 1 is now longer, the 1 is using 3 line cars so they can maintain the frequencies. The VC, Lenox, and Linovia fleets have essentially been pooled into one big fleet for the two lines.
It's actually something that was going to happen eventually anyway. It was just moved up because of September 11's events.
David
I know but it wasn't possible before then. The original plan was to do it when the R142 option order came.
Not really. It would have been a matter of a few more weeks until #3 trains went to 10 cars.
David
How many cars was the 3 normally?
The 3 was 9 cars long prior to 9/11 which brings me to my question. Why when the 3 was doing 2 bouroughs all the cars only had 9 cars but now when it only has 12 stops it get's 10 cars?
I already explained that, go back a bit in this thread. FWI: It is 11 stops, not 12.
Does this mean all R62A's will be linked into 5 car sets now? I know a lot of the #3;s R62's are singles to maintain the 9 car trains. If so, how will they operate them on the Flushing line? I'd assume enough R62's will remain singles for this purpose and to operate the GS shuttle.
Hadn't the 3 been bumped up to ten cars shortly before 9/11? I seem to recall that the change was made in August.
I don't believe so. It had been anticipated for the fall, but got moved up a few weeks in the wake of the World Trade Center's destruction.
David
I stand corrected.
Just SMILE and ENJOY it!!!!!!
> That, and some 1 trains being non-OPTO R-62's
When did the #1 Line run OPTO?
- Lyle Goldman
Never, but until 9/11, all 1 trains ran OPTO-compatible trainsets -- that is, they had transverse cabs in front and back. Now that the 1 and 3 have merged fleets, some 1's don't have transverse cabs (much to my delight).
THere is a sign on every pole ,token booth ,Turnstile and actual Conductors telling people that ther is no Bronx bound 2 trains.So people at Houston st Christopher st. have the nerve to complain NO ONE TOLD THEM they were waitng a whole 10 minutes.POOR BABIES 10 minutes THEIR LUCKY!!Then the fun begins 66 ,79 ,86 st WHY CANT THE 5 GO Local We have to wait for the 1. BEFORE SEPTEMBER 11 WHAT ELSE DID YOU WAIT FOR .GET A GRIP Dont yell at the Conductors Blame yourself You got spoiled living in an area where service is at a premium So when some trackwork which we all have to deal with increases your headways WALK or TAKE A DAMM CAB ,You Pay enough Rent so I am SURE you can AFFORD A CAB.
I think you need to switch to decaf.
Heh. There's a lot of folks (myself included) whose emotions have gone over the edge lately. Been a rough holiday season for a lot of folks, especially with the awful autumn. Hopefully we'll all be friends again quickly and not spend so much of our own time being cheesed ...
And no, no group hugs. :)
Heh, i think this person oughta ramp up to MORE caffeine, if not illegal substances. tht'd be a hoot. hehe!
Just like on the East Side we tell them the No.4 train is not running between 125 Street and 149 GC take the No.2 train to connect and they still wait there and scream again after they stand there let the No.2 pass and a No.4 comes in yelling last stop. They then complain that we are not making announcments when they where played loud and clear by Train Crews and Train Dispatchers.
We're you around during the invert project, which was basically this GO quadrupled?
They then complain that we are not making announcments when they where played loud and clear by Train Crews and Train Dispatchers.
With respect, don't know about that particular station ... but you know as well as I do that "loud and clear" announcements are usually static-filled incomprehensible noise.
And when there is no static and the announcer talks perfect English with no accent, they still don't listen.
The PA system at 86 on the 1/2 is totally useless -- it produces nothing but loud static. (Well, a few days ago I managed to make out two words, "downtown local," but was I being told that one was on its way or was I being told that service had been interrupted?) If it can't be fixed, could it at least be unplugged? The noise really is quite unpleasant.
That reminds me of a GO where only one service was servicing Canal St. The conductor started yelling over the PA that this would be the ONLY trian coming to Canal, yet there were still people waiting on the platforms. There was this other time at Dekalb Avenue when N and Rs were being diverted over the bridge. I was in the first car, and the T/O actually opened his window to talk to some guy on the platform standing around asking where he needed to go.
You should have seen all the passengers (or would-be passengers) at the CPW local stations last weekend passing up D after D, waiting for that elusive C (which kept passing by on the express track).
That's never a good strategy on CPW, even when no GO is in effect. If a train stops for you, get on. At 59, make corrective transfers, if necessary.
Canal is tricky, since the local and express platforms are in entirely different places, and the signs sometimes lie. The last time I was there, Q trains were stopping on the NB express platform directly in front of signs claiming they weren't.
Agreed.
I couldn't have said it better, Union Sq.
"You Pay enough Rent so I am SURE you can AFFORD A CAB."
Great biased opinion, I live on the Upper West Side, and due to some program in the mid 80's, my parents applied for a rent something because they were getting charged way too high. Now, it's below 1,000 for a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom per month. So next time you want to say something insulting, use your brain, and think about who you just might offend.
AMEN Clayton! 800 bucks a month for a one bed/bath rent controlled apartment on the East Side. Rent goes up 7% a year now. My income didn't. So my new TA income is welcome...happy with any increase given to me. Chase us all out and who would maintain the infrastructure: illegal immigrants who cannot communicate? CI Peter
Not to mention that many apartments on the Upper West Side, for better or for worse, are covered by rent control.
To those who are under the impression that everyone on the UWS is rich, I invite you to come to the neighborhood and take a look around. (Don't miss Amsterdam Avenue.) In fact, it is a very diverse neighborhood.
Nobody reads anymore. You can post notices and signs about service changes for 2 months in advance (the manhattan bridge comes to mind), and they'd still complain about lack of warning.
I actually try to read every poster, which is probably why I've never been on TV complaining about being too confused to get to Grand St. I'm not even Chinese, so I'd have a right to get lost.
I have to commend the C/R on the uptown 1 I took earlier today. He made it extremely clear exactly how to get to the Bronx. And he was even audible too.
To Union Square and the rest of the new conductors on this board (and everywhere else for that matter):
You are going to find out soon enough that people EVERYWHERE don't read. Or listen. You can't let it get to you. Yeah, I know it can be a pain in the ass, but unfortunately, it goes with the territory. You say something once, you say it 100 times, you still get people that don't get it. Ignorance? Quite possibly. But you can't let it get to you.
That works for me. Most people don't read, bottom line. I had a customer complaining they didn't know there was no 2 service on the West Side Yesterday, because there were no signs at one of the stations. They wanted me to call that booth.
Now what in the hell do I have to do with that booth? Supervision should be on hand to ensure that there is sufficient signage available in the stations.
There will be a Second GO coming up next weekend. Here we go again....
-Stef
Next time, tell the customer that you tried to call the booth, but the busy signals prevailed because the phone repairmen couldn't get there as there was no number two service. Your supervisors are on the way but their 2 train went up the East side. The homing pigeons sent to deliver the flyers that say there is no number two service had to stop to take a number two. There has to be a way to get them to understand they are #1 for being second best.
GOOD ONE!!!
I'll remember that. Say Hi to Dolly.
-Stef
Yes, a similar GO next weekend. I had all R142s going up the east side. The people at the local Lex stations were looking confused as they thought a 6 was running xpress.
For some reason though, when there were GOs between West End and Sea Beach, there weren't any complaints as to service changes. Signs were also posted all over the place.
I don't understand the complaints. The 3 was running local in both directions, so there was more southbound local service than usual. I'm not sure why the 3 ran local instead of the 5, but to anyone bound for points between 42 and 135, it made no difference -- except for the thrill of Redbirds on the express track, where they belong. I had initially feared that both the 3 and 5 would have run express, which would have caused problems -- remember that scheduled 1 service now isn't quite as frequent as it was before 9/11, and the crowding was already a problem then -- but, somewhat to my surprise, the GO planners took this into account and ran the 3 local.
For the most part, last weekend's GO's seemed to cause minimal confusion. The exceptions were at 149-GC (where the SB 4 platform had only a few handwritten signs about the GO) and at the CPW local stations (where station announcements repeatedly informed waiting passengers of the C's express run but neglected to include any information about the D local).
Well get ready for part deux this weekend. The only notices I have seen on this upcoming GO were on the 1 trains I used. There are some by the token booth area of some stations as well.
There is something quite odd about a complaint about people who "dont read" coming from someone who:
omits the apostrophe in "don't"
uses "their" in place of "they're"
puts spaces before commas in lists
doesn't use commas at all in any other situation
capitalizes "turnstile", "conductor", "pay", "rent", and "local"
does not capitalize the abbreviation "St."
does not use a period after that abbreviation
writes many entire words using all capitals
does not use a question mark after an interrogative sentence
leaves no space between the end of one sentence and the beginning of the next
I mean, typos are one thing; everyone makes them. (Indeed, there is likely to be at least one in this post.) But writing which is that atrocious is not the result of typos. Evidently, there is someone around here who doesn't read!
Anyway, that said, it is a good point about some idiot commuters who refuse to read signs and then complain that they weren't informed.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Union Square" is the same person who was ranting and raving a few weeks back about the Grand Street Shuttle causing him/her to be late for SCHOOL! Late? I don't think that person ever showed up to begin with!
That wasn't him, it was someone else who I wont say. I think the thread is still slightly alive.
Sorry, my mistake!
its not just them. People have a tendency to love their confort zones. They just think service is supposed to stay a certain way no matter what. this is why u see their faces change to a unhappy face when things change. I have heard of Es headed to jamaica center turning into Cs and going uptown instead. Then yesterday after union turnpike, Sutphin was our next stop on the E. imagine the faces of those wanting to get off at Jamaica Van Wyck. Not only that what i mean by comfort zones is most people have no idea what a R32 and R46 is. However they see a series of R32s stopping at Roosevelt avenue jackson heights lets say, they automatically assume that it is a E. and they see R46s on the express they think its a F unless it says E on the front like some do. Get this i remember once a woman getting on a R32 F and she asked does this go to canal? i told her this is not a E its a F. she was like it looks like a E. I told her u cannot judge a train by its equipment. If TA had to they could bring any kind of equip on the E. I remember peoples faces when i rode the D type for the museum trip and people thought it was a A in hoyt schermerhorn street. But we bypassed! lol
None of this applies to the West Side IRT, where, especially after 9/11, the only way to determine which trains are local and which are express is to memorize the track layout and listen to announcements (except on the R-142's).
I had a interesting trip Saturday Night into Sunday Morning. There was some kind of problem with the No.2 service there had no trains. So my R62 relay comes into 125 Street. We where told to take the No.4 in service to 149 Street Grand Concouse. We get to 149 GC and was informed to take it in service to E 241 Street. Now we get to E 241 Street and now since there was no No.2 train there we where then ordered to run as A No.2 train to Flatbush. Yes a No.4 train as a No.2 Train to Flatbush. So now we go downtown Times Sq and Nevins seemed clueless why there is a No.4 train on the No.1,2 Line. We get to Nevins after telling everyone This is a No.2 to Flatbush they tell us we are now back on the No.4 Line and we will go to New Lots. So now I change my Announcement "Ladies and gentleman this is no longer a No.2 train this is now a No.4 to New Lots". Then we get to Utica they made that our last stop.
Does anyone remember the last time a No.4 train was in service on the White Plains Line or on the 7AVE-Broadway Line?
Through Brooklyn though, it's all familiar trackage to the 4. That's hilarious at Nevins and Utica. How many people went to your window and started complaining? Was there a 2 right behind you when they told you to go back as a 4 to New Lots?
The No.2 was no where near me. The thing was its a toug of war between the No.2+4 Lines. The No.2 has a gap in service but uses a No.4 crew and No.4 train to fill it instead of there own. Now on the other hand the No.4 has one less train for there line and one less T/O and C/R.
Was it a redbird or an R62? Also, were you signed as a 4 or a 2?
It was an R 62 and signed up as No.4 top: 125 Lex Bottom: Utica.
So your real run was supposed to end at 125th, so they extended it to the 2 line. Pretty neat.
What fun that must have been.
I always wondered if C/Rs carried maps with them. Such in this case with a reroute onto a different line, did the C/R know all the stops? Especially in the Bronx where the stations are by names?
The Conductor did a Wonderful job in making currect announcements along the White Plains, Lenox, and Broadway Lines.
I've never seen a 4 train on the 2 line in passenger service. But I have seen 4 trains deadhead on the 2 line on several occasions.
It was very weird! The reason my No.4 was sent to the Bronx was becuase of a delay over 40 Minutes with the Uptown No.2 service. Then also I was only suppose to go to 149 GC discharge deadhead along the 7AVE Line and go in service at Nevins Street. However the Mott tower changed my destination to E 241 Street. The E 241 T/D telling us to run our No.4 Train in service as a No.2 Local train was a trip. When I pulled into 96 Street I started to remember why I got away from the west side.
In away I liked it because it was like a Low V fantrip I didn't know where I would end up at and I did get a tour of the IRT.
Hey PBD, check your email. You wont be surprised at what caused your unusual trip.
An R-142 Broke Down? Oh nooooo.............
-Stef
Uh-oohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
For those who might be interested, Saturday's Jersey Journal (Jersey City, NJ) has an ad from PATH in the Career Opportunities Section.
Openings listed are for Conductors, Extra Engineer/Switching(Yard M/M),Tower Operators and Train Dispatcher/Terminal Supervisors. The ad states that 2 years prior railroad experience is "highly desirable".
If interested, Email your resume to rpsmalls@panynj.gov or fax a scannable resume to 201-714-9731.
Thank you for posting that.
One of the things on the table is to realign services like the FD, not reducing head count but moving manpower from the nights to the days.
If the 143's work out and they real don't replace exisitng equipemnt (or at least not 1-1) there actually might be a bit more TPH. Even if the 143's do replace exisiting equipment more daytime people used correctly could reduce service interuptions.
IF TPH is not increased, how would you use the extra bodies to help service? Extra switchmen at places like 59th, QP, City Hall, Myrtle and Essex to turn trains fast in case of problems? Fewer penalty and workhorse jobs to combat fatigue and hopefully speed up the system?
Can extra people efficiently fight service delays?
Isn't MTA state budget?
Arti
It is but you argue it isn't.
I think that move was so that when the fare goes up or there is a strike the current mayor is not impaled. NYCT salaries are inline with NYC employee salaries, LIRR salaries are in line with LI.
The MTA falls under "authorities" much like the Thruway Authority, Bridge and Tunnel Authority and others. While state agencies in a sort of way, they also have a degree of independence and their own governing boards, different financing and different control. They're more independent than a state agency, yet like all else, answerable to politicians who if not pleased, will screw with them.
In the case of the MTA, the board reflects state interests as well as local interests, plus a few pander bears thrown in to assure deadlock on most any issue. :)
Welcome back,
I just wanted to repost the poll so everyone can have a chance to vote. As a reminder, polling will close at 1:00 PM on Thursday, January 10th, and I will repost a simple message daily (to improve visibility). Click here To see the details within the original post. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
I thought I would post this strange experience on here so that people may read it.
Now, as some of you may know, I used to work for British Rail and thus have had some safety training for trackside walking. I've seen more videos and heard more stories of people getting hit by trains than most, and have a fairly good sense of the dangers of being around trains.
Last night, my girlfriend and I were out walking late at night -- we left my house at Somerville MA heading northwards and we were in Bedford MA by around 11.30pm. Heading northwards along Boston Ave., this road runs directly parallel to the MBTA Lowell Mainline. We got to Mystic River and decided to head back. When we were walking back home (southwards) along the HIGHWAY -- not along the track as some people may have been tempted to do -- when suddenly I was caught by surprise from behind as a deadheading train swept through. I knew it was deadheading because there weren't anybody on board and I also knew that there weren't any service trains at that time.
I guess I just thought I would share this experience because it is quite unusual for me -- not to notice a train until it was practically right next to me -- I'm used to American trains as being noisy with their diesel motors and hooting their horns every 2 minutes at grade crossings. This one was running at an estimated 60mph with no bells, no horns (presumably because Bedford has an ordiance banning the use of horns beyond a certain hour), and no EMD noise (because it was running cab-car-first and wind was blowing in such a way as not to carry the noise). In yesterday's visibility, it would have been quite easy for anybody walking on track without high-vis vests to get killed.
This reminds me of the time when my ex-girlfriend and I went walking on a dirt road by the old B&O in Ohio -- we stayed off the track itself, but she was pretty tempted to go walking on there. The old B&O through Northern Ohio is a 79mph mainline alignment! No train came that time, and it's so easy to let that kind of experience mislead people into thinking it's safe. It's not, and you only need to walk along a highway parallel to a track to find out for yourself. Of course, 99% of the time no train will come, but the 1% of the time is when you are either surprised (if you were walking along the highway) or killed (if you were stupid enough to walk on the track).
Moral of the story: Don't walk along railroad tracks, unless there's a public highway right by the track. You won't hear the train coming.
Lexcie, you were in MEDFORD, not BEDFORD. Bedford is about 30 miles from where you were :-) I ride the Lowell Line to/from work every day, and not only are there lots of deadheads (no trains are stored in Lowell overnight), but there's a lot of freight traffic, plus now four Downeaster R/Ts each day. It's a busy line!
As "silent" as these trains are, they're much quieter on the South Side, where the 1700/700 series Kawasaki bilevels run. They have
airbag suspension, and are whisper quiet in comparison to the other car types on the MBTA Commuter Rail.
One other point... MEDFORD (not Bedford, where there has been no commuter rail service for 30+ years :-) has a "no whistle" ordinance 24 hours/day. Bells are rung at the crossings, however... and during rush hours, there is a "crossing guard" at the main street crossing. Also, when there are two opposing direction trains, one must protect the crossing until the other goes by. The engineers coordinate by radio to decide who will protect whom.
I thought that those ordinances got thrown out in Fedral court.
Nope. HOME RULE. Local municipalities still have the right. I believe there's a proposed and/or adopted Federal regulation that will change this in the future, but for now, what Medford wants, Medford gets. There are a number of other Massachusetts communities that have a no blow ordinance too.
A ridiculous practice (not the railroad's fault). Perhaps the railroad wants to be a "good neighbor" and observes the ordinance when it doesn't have to. Maybe this is a case where the feds should politely tell the town to "get over it" and instruct the railroad to begin horn use again.
And install four-quadrant gates to try to deal with any village idiots who would try to kill themselves on a regular basis.
Oh sh*t, not this issue again. Umm, Feds rule. If Medford wants a no blow, they can declare independence...
Ah, Darwinism at its finest....
please include railinfo if you like. or anythign about the town
Lexie if the train was headed toward Boston they would be running cab car foward so you would not here the engine till it pqasses. Stevie
Yep ... and THERE'S the rub ... they can get nice and loud when coming upon a CROSSING or in stretches where trespassers are expected. A crew gets a milepost sheet that tells them where to blow. Anywhere else, SURPRISE! That's why I'm constantly lecturing on the subject. Today's rail equipment is MUCH quieter than the days of yore, with "Whispercabs," composite shoes and no dragging chains ...
The diesel trains aren't that noisy either....especially nowadays that there are push-pull trains. The locomotives are quieter. And nowadays, they put the damned horns on the back end of the loco, so you don't hear them if you are on the right-of-way -- but you can sure hear them five miles either side of the tracks!! (LIRR!!)
Stupid asses out here in California at Metrolink did a real winner about eight years ago -- folks were complaining about the loud diesel horns, so they put TROLLEY CAR WHISTLES (!!!) on all their F59 locos and cab cars. And guess where they mounted them??? Behind the pilot ("cowcatcher" for those of you who still think they are "choo-choo" trains....) You couldn't hear those damned whistles more than a hundred feet away!!
I had to do some in-cab video-taping of all of Metrolink's routes at the time (1993-1994) and you can see a couple instances where trespassers were walking down the tracks, the engineer was sounding the toy train whistle furiously, and the trespassers acted like they didn't even hear them!!!
Well, the engineers got together with their union officials, and now there are air horns once again on Metrolink's equipment. Not the big K5LA's that the stuff came with (most are still on the rooftops), but they have a variety of Nathan and Leslie two-chimes, but they're still mounted under the pilots. Only cab car 631 has its K5LA working, and I suspect some engineer figured out how to reconnect it as it's always on the same train on the line past my residence.
You should hear the SEPTA regional rail trains. At market east, all you can hear is the quiet hissing of the brakes. or else you wouldnt even know a train was coming in. the norristown 100 is even quieter. you really gotta pay attention if you wanna catch the train.
Where can I find out both the seating and official crush-load standee capacity of each configuration of NYCT and PATH car now in operation ?
The information you want is available on the "National Transportation Database" website. However, it is available only in raw data "dbf" format. N.B. they do not give crush-load standing capacity only service level standing capacity. Tho following is this information in comma delimited form, 2008 is the id for NYCT, 2098 is the id for PANYNJ.
"org","type","seats","standees"
"2008",,,
"2008","R110A",28,162
"2008","R110B",46,203
"2008","R26",40,70
"2008","R28",40,70
"2008","R29",40,70
"2008","R32",44,101
"2008","R33",40,70
"2008","R36",40,70
"2008","R38",44,101
"2008","R40",44,101
"2008","R42",44,101
"2008","R44",72,103
"2008","R46",72,103
"2008","R62",40,70
"2008","R62A",40,70
"2008","R68",72,103
"2008","R68A",72,103
"2098",,,
"2098","PA1A",31,98
"2098","PA1C",32,97
"2098","PA2A",31,98
"2098","PA2C",32,97
"2098","PA3",31,98
"2098","PA4",31,98
Thank you Stephen.
For those of you who collect maps, there are at least a dozen of the TA's one-sheet map dated 10/28 at the Transit Museum and Store at Grand Central. They're in the racks built into the wall to the right of the entrance door as you walk in. Grab 'em before someone recognizes they're obsolete!
I've now added one to my heap'o'maps.
if i could induce someone to pick up one for me i would appreciate it. airfare from atlanta is a bit high to do so. i'll gladly reimburse you for your trouble.
thanks
john rofrano
Any chance of someone posting one to the UK?
How, when and where do train operators and conductors on the NYC Subway and LIRR go to the bathroom?
I know this may sound like a strange question, but I am considering applying for one of these jobs and would like to know the conditions.
Lavatory closets in the middle cars. (just kidding)
While en route to the Museum of Natural History on that AA train in May of 1967, my father wondered out loud if the motorman's cab in the second or third cars was a john (not that he needed to go). I replied I didn't think so. True story.
Ask any conductor - that one tends to rise to the top level of "ask the conductor" subway FAQs ...
On that particular four-stop ride, I was too busy looking out the window and listening to the bull and pinion gears.
Heh ... four stops wasn't sufficient to solve the FAQ ... and the SADDEST part of being a suited monkey back in those days was that THERE WASN'T A POTTY ... ANYWHERE ... and they didn't have DEPENDS either. :)
Can you say PLASTIC BOTTLE
So basically it's a pillar at the end of a station like everyone else.
PLEASE don't be offended that I picked this one to give it another go ... literally ...
RULE number one in the cab of a "locomotive" is that puddles that can run into the breaker cabinet is a *BAD* idea ... ANYWHERE but the cab is a "good idea" in railroading, no matter what kind of cab you grab some WABCO in ... bottom line is ANYWHERE ELSE ... whatever the necessary contrivances. You do NOT wet your pants in the cab. Period. It's all a question of individual creativity and stones, as well as how WELL you can maintain pipe pressure. I was lucky ... I was 19 and 20 at the time I did my thing with the MTA meatball ... had I been older, I would have been a bit more concerned.
But anyway you slice this question, you're NOT going to get a straight answer out of anyone who's done it. The realities are not quite so kind. I'll leave it there.
So I figure they just need to keep a widemouth Snapple bottle handy.....
Since this was intended as a serious question and I've already had my fun, let's just say it's an opportunity to "demonstrate quality bladder control" or "demonstrate creativity above and beyond the call" is presented. The system manages one way or another every day. And it really isn't such a serious issue for most actually, that's why i had some fun with it as did a few others. May not be a good job though for the "are we there yet?" crowd.
Thanks SelkirkTMO. It was meant to be a serious question, but I am glad that it wasnt taken too seriously and enjoyed the humor.
I am considering applying for a job within the MTA, if I move back to NYC, where I grew up.
I visited last week for the first time in 8 years. I have always loved riding the Subway. I didnt get to ride the new "V" train or the rerouted "F", but it was on my list of things to do.
Yeah, when I saw you weren't getting a serious answer, figured SOMEBODY had to do it. Heh. "Bottom line" is most folks have no problems and you DO get a "potty break" if you need it, but you ARE expected to not require a pit stop at every "holding light." If there are medical issues, chances are you'll never get past Nurse Ratchet at the TA informary at intake time.
And yeah, I had some fun too ... ya gotta ... I love Subtalk very much, but it ain't "on the job" it's R&R and sometimes ya gotta have some fun here or we'll make you do a layup. :)
Can you say 'R142 windshield washer resevoir?'
If it melts snow and ice ... oh never mind. :)
Seriously, you learn to control your plumbing.
I know on Amtrak, I've heard engineers get on the radio and announce to the conductor "I gotta go drain the main reservoir" at station stops. No kidding!! So the conductor knows what's going on....
Yeah, but on a loco, there ARE facilities down in the nose. May need a clothespin to go down there, but it's there. on NYCTA, it's either do the raindance or ... get back into life with DEPENDS. :)
ROFL!!!
The absolute WORST on-locomotive crappers I ever encountered were the ones on Union Pacific's EMD DDA-4X's. You did your business, thenpressed what you thought was a "Flush" button. It wasn't a flusher...but an INCINERATOR!!! It cooked whatever you donated!!!
And PHEW!!! did the loco's nose STINK forever after that.....
No wonder you see locomotive engineers doing their business over the handrails....
Or better yet, Norfolk Southern has them crap in a plastic bag. Too many of those loaded bags got tossed overboard, so they started putting serial numbers on them and the crews had to sign out numbered bags.
Heh. Yeah, we had one of those flamecrappers up at one of the transmitter sites for a TV station I used to work at. Best part was one day when the General Manager came up with some guests and we set the thing off. Heh. Nothing more amusing than watching suits scatter in panic when it went VAVOOM! :)
You just can't resist posts like this, can you Selkirk? LOL
Never could, never will. Nothing charges the old brake pipe like a good cheap shot. :)
Don't know ANYBODY who worked the rails that couldn't do the raindance without benefit of musical accompaniment. And of course the occasional tourista who wanted to know why the bathrooms on each end of the car were locked just like the ones on the platform. Heh.
"Don't know ANYBODY who worked the rails that couldn't do the raindance without benefit of musical accompaniment. "
In the past there was an appliance called a "bus drivers friend"
It was an external catheter (like a condom, but with plumbing) that had to be pasted on to the... ah... er.... well anyway, I don't see them in stores anymore.
Elias
I heard alot of B/O's pee in the rear stepwell. No wonder why it always smells like urine back there.
Thats OK for no.1 but what about.....? Aw, forget it!!!
I remember when I drove a NYC cab in the 70's, it was a Friday afternoon in lower Manh. with heavy rush hour traffic and I had to pee very badly. I was looking for a parking space to go when a guy jumped in and said, Kennedy Airport!!! Talk about a predicament!!!
Actually, what about token clerks. At least a motorman or conductor can use a bottle in the privacy of the cabs, but a token clerk will have more trouble, especially the women.
Sadly, I must admit that I never ever put any thought into the guardians of the turnstile ... I genuinely and sincerely bow my head in shame for not having thought of it (NOT kidding) ... dunno. If you're ALONE in the box as many are, I would HAVE to guess that you'd have to close down and encourage the wrath of CON, or fend for yourself until "relief" arrives ... which likely would take FOREVER.
For those few who enjoy "Statistical analysis" ... one thing that amused me a few years ago after listening to Jay Leno OBSESSING about "Depends" and a few other chuckles from train crews here laughing about the same thing, it *IS* amusing that "incontinet users" are a certain number of folks, but makers of "Depends" have more than four TIMES as much in sales, either there's a sexual fetish that we're missing, or there's a LOT of EMPLOYEES in various businesses spending money on this chit just to DO THEIR JOB ...
Now I've seen enough internet porn to understand that there's some kinkers out there - but let's face it - if you can't find a toity, ya GOTTA do it SOMEWHERE ... only question is where, and franly, as much as I enjoy being amused by something new, I'd REALLY rather not know.
I'm sure everyone else will agree ...
Subway stations, if I recall correctly, esp. terminals, have employee-only bathrooms. Presumably you would be issued a key...
I think the crux of the question was what happens if you just gotta go and you are not near the terminal.
Dang! Somebody forgot to open the drain plug in the compressor tank. Or you can blame it on a handy seeing eye dog. (dunno WHY I keep falling for these things)
Actually, the bottom line for asking this question is can a person with a "small bladder" handle the job?
Depends on how small and how much you drink. Most trips on the Subway average between 60 and 90 minutes.
I know the C/R is supposed to point at the board. Do the rules specify precisely what he must point?
He sticks his hand out of the window and points to the board.
Look people is a bird, no its a plane, nooooooo its a conductor spotting board!
In all seriousness, the crew facilities at each terminal have bathrooms. Whether you know it or not, every station also has a bathroom. If the ultimate emergency comes about (I'll admit - it's happened to me and just about everyone I work with at one time or another), you get to the next station, if you can call Control via the radio you let them know you'll be taking an 'emergency comfort relief', and then pray the token clerk has the key to the can and the can works. Luckily 90% of the station bathrooms use one of 3 keys, which most TA employees possess.
I take it, you aint gotten a serious answer.
You were expecting one?
I was thinking of goin down to Clearwater Spring Training in March and priced out Amtrak, not out of fear of flying,but figuring I'd try something different and have an "adventure". However, for some reason, they are using reverse airline logic in their pricing:
AMTRAK: Auto Train--- Lorton,VA to Sanford, FL $570.50 round trip
perfectly reasonable considering they're towing your car
1000 miles.
Regular Reserved Coach---Wilmington, DE to Tampa, FL
Direct without having to change trains at all (excluding
layovers at points for engine changes and such) 24 hours
Round trip fare--$217.
Wilmington to Orlando and then bus to Tampa
Round Trip Fare--hold onto your lunch now----$366.00!!!!
(ARE YOU KIDDING ME????)
Forget Tampa altogether. Wilmington to Orlando straight
through (cutting off approximately 100 miles) costs
$270--round trip...still $60 more than if I go to Tampa.
AIRLINES Philly to Tampa $155 round trip with a connection in
Charlotte, NC....$178 non-stop.
now normal logic says it the the shortest, most direct means of making a trip usually is the most expensive. At least the airlines seem to see it this way, but apparently making the trip in 12 times the amount of time with layovers and connections actually costs more????? Go figure!!!
Must be staying over a Saturday nite, or the airlines will screw you.
well i was flying out on a saturday and returning the following saturday. i adjusted the return to be that following monday and it was actually MORE.
If you are a AAA member you get 10% off. Furthermore, Amtrak sometimes has special rail sales of 2 for 1 discounts. Amtrak also delivers a superrior ride with lots of leg room and no risk of terrorist attack.
There is a reason for this. Amtrak fares are (AFAIK) currently managed on a per-train basis rather than on an O/D basis. This makes sense, because each of the trains are different (in terms of facilities) and it is also generally expected that they will serve different O/D markets.
Let's take an example. PHL-CLE you can travel on two routes, via #43 (Pennsylvanian) or #29 (Capitol). You might think the only difference is in the timing. I can practically guarentee that the fares on those two journeys would be different, and if you priced WAS-CLE via PHL (and hence #43) or direct (via #29) you will get different prices. Also, the sales they have fuck this up even more ($11.70 to go PHL-CLE on #43 at this time). Part of the reason is because they don't expect people to use creative routings such as WAS-PHL-CLE or PHL-WAS-CLE, the other reason is because the Capitol is a much nicer train (Superliner vs Amfleet equipment), but also another reason is because Pennsylvania is practically sponsored by NS through Triple Crown whilst the Capitol is sponsored by the Congress.
The Florida case is likely that way because Orlando is a much hotter destination than Tampa, thus anyone going through Orlando is going to pay a high fare. You have to remember Amtrak don't have strict NX control, so you can buy a ticket to Tampa and just hop off at Orlando. For that reason they discourage creative routing.
On top of those Amtrak fares, consider the time it takes, and then add in the price of the en route meals you're going tohave to buy!!!
What is the current fare if you take a bedroom for the trip?
Ron, the answer is at http://tickets.amtrak.com/ Please visit the website, the new reservation system is easy, easy, EASY to use. Thank you for calling Amtrak.
Are the trains on the Staten Island Railway the same size as the BMT/IND or the LIRR?
They are modified R-44s, similar to the R-44s on NYC Transit's A and S (Rockaway Shuttle) lines. Like those on NYC's system, the cars are 75 feet long.
David
They are R44's. The same size as 75' foot cars on the BMT/IND.
Would NYC subway cars be able to run a the Staten Island Railway tracks?
They can, and they have. When the Staten Island R-44s went out for overhaul, a few R-46s were sent over from the NYC subway as a
"float." The end signs were set for JFK Express.
David
<<<"a few R-46s were sent over from the NYC subway">>>
I remember this, except with side signs indicating "179th/Jamaica".
BTW, I thought these cars stayed on Staten Island.....
R-36: I believe that three R-46's were sent over to Staten Island in addition to the 12 R-44's. These cars helped protect the service while the SIR MUE-2's were sent out for overhaul. The R-44's became permanent residents but the R-46's returned to the mainline.
Larry, RedbirdR33
OK, didn't know that...thanks.
LIRR cars have as well. In the early 1970s, while waiting for the R-44s, the LIRR sent over a few 81' MP-72s (remember those piece-of-crap engine hauled coaches before the Bilevels?). Only back then those cars were MUs.
While the cars are actually R-44's, inother words, YES, they are the same size as BMT/IND....they CAN use LIRR size cars as well.
In the 1980's, they actually did use some LIRR MP72 cars which are full length/width railroad passenger cars.
Those LIRR MP72s ran on the SI Railway in 1972 and 1973 when there was a severe car shortage. Many of the old B&O cars from 1925 were inoperable and the replacement R44s had not yet arrived. By 1980 the MP72s were back at the LIRR for many years, and converted from MUs to diesel push-pull coaches.
Thanks for the correction on the dates -- wasn't really sure and didn't feel like getting out the books that have photos of them!!
LIRR M-1/M-3.....85ft long/10ft wide
NYCT R-44/46/68/68A.....75ft long/10ft wide
SIRwy R-44.....75ft long/10ft wide
NYCT (BMT/IND) R-32/38/40/42/143.....60ft long/10ft wide
NYCT (BMT/IND) R-110B.....67ft long/10ft wide
NYCT (IRT) R-26/28/29/33/36/62/62A/110A/142/142A.....51ft long/ 9ft wide
LIRR and NYCT platform heights are differ by a couple of inches
Well that's the long and the short of it !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Wowsers! THANKS Unca Bill ... never knew the 110B's were 67 footers. What an UNUSUAL size. Makes me wonder WHAT they were thinking. :)
Wasn't that the lenghth of the BMT Standards?
that was the joke, yes
Heh. Just checking to see how many killfiles I'm in. :)
haha never thought of that Northman
MOO, brother! 18.8 inches! Woohoo! Our dairy critters are pumping out ice cream! :)
>>Wasn't that the lenghth of the BMT Standards?<<
Sarge,
Yes and also the SIRT cars too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Amazing to me how many completely missed the tongue in cheek. Then again, you had the advantage of seeing in person how serious I am about anything. It WAS amusing though that the 110B's resurrected what was once a "standard" ... never knew that. Then again, in a time of married pairs or worse, 67 feet is a bad size for what is accepted today given platform lengths.
Glad the Sarge fell for it too ... I can't wait to be cuffed at Branford for being a wiseass. :)
Good morning Selkirk, hows the snow up there ?
Bill "Newkirk"
14.8 inches so far (just went out and measured it, looks like a frontloader for our 1/2 mile road at $500 out of my own pocket) but then again since our business is on the property, we can wait until they do the mall parking lots first. Another 3-6 is expected over the next few hours as the NEXT band of the storm rolls through.
Then again, this is NORMAL for winter here - we had a long reprieve. Trains are running normal schedules, Amtrak is as usual, unaffected by it between here and NYC and it looks like the peak of it was right overhead. Out west and up north, not much at all. Skiing down in the Catskills looks good for the weekend, up north, it's still cold so the jets should be making a railtrip for skiing worthwhile from anywhere.
But yeah, we FINALLY got a normal snow up here.
YOU KNOW YOU'RE FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK WHEN...
You only own three spices - salt, pepper and ketchup
You design your Halloween costumes to fit over a snowsuit
When the mosquitoes have landing lights
When you have more miles on your snowblower than your car
You have 10 favorite recipes for venison
TrueValue Hardware on any Saturday is busier than the toy stores at Christmas
You live in a house that has no front steps, yet the door is one yard above the ground
You've taken your kids trick-or-treating in a blizzard
Driving is better in the winter because the potholes get filled with snow
You think everyone from the city has an accent
You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie with only 8 buttons
You owe more money on your snowmobile than your car
The local paper covers national and international headlines on l/4 page, but requires 6 pages for sports
At least twice a year, the kitchen doubles as a meat processing plant
The most effective mosquito repellent is a shotgun
Your snowblower gets stuck on the roof
You think the start of deer hunting season is a national holiday
You head south to go to your cottage
You frequently clean grease off your barbecue so the bears won't prowl on your deck
You know which leaves make good toilet paper
The mayor greets you on the street by your first name
There is only one shopping plaza in town
The major parish fundraiser isn't bingo - its sausage making
You find -20F a little chilly
The trunk of your car doubles as a deep freezer
You attended a formal event in your best clothes, your finest jewelry and your snowmobile boots
You can play road hockey on skates
Shoveling the driveway constitutes a great upper body workout
You know the 4 seasons: Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
The municipality buys a Zamboni before a bus
You actually 'get' these jokes, and forward them to all your Northern friends
A $400 electric bill is a bargain.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
67' was the length of the BMT standards, and would work on the BMT Eastern division (was built for 8 car trains of 67' BMT Standards). Also 9 67' cars is a 600' train, same lenght as 10 60-footers or 8 75-footers.
The original SIRT cars were also 67'. Some of them actually ran on the BMT in the late 1950s.
-- Ed Sachs
Yeah, found it amusing that the TA would choose a car length for the 110B's that was the ONE carsize they never did again ... someone nostalgic in the engineering department? :)
No quite, it would have been the largest car to be able to run on THEE ENTIRE B DIVISION, Eastern BMT included.
The thought was to Down size , but it ended in an odd number, difficult to break for shorter sets.
avid
What ever happened to R110 A/B?
Last I heard (1998ish), the NY Post said the 110 A's were comatose at 207th..full of all manner of defects,
Is this still true? What's the fate of 110 B?
Now that 142 and 143 are here, will we ever see these again?
Actually 9 x 67 is 603 Feet.
Sixty-seven feet would have been a very useful size. It would fit everywhere on the system yet require only 9 cars for a full length trains off the Eastern Division instead of 10. It would also have allowed a longer train (than 8 60' cars) on the Eastern Division.
Instead of being made up into four-car unit, they could have used three-car units. Three 3-car units = full length train.
What could we have called them? Well ... uh ... maybe R143-B, and the two car units for the Eastern Division an R143-BT. Yeah, and we'd need some singles. How about R143-A? And if we put in some trailers, let's see ...
Keep on adding those designations and car types, and you'll make the car maintainers down at CI and 207th Street VEEEERY mad that they have to learn so many more car types :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Kewl info. Thanx!
I didnt realize that IND/BMT and LIRR trains were the same width. The LIRR trains seem so much bigger to me.
As I understand it, SIR could pretty much take anything if the propper modifications were made to the platforms.
:-) Andrew
I was just looking at some metal Lo-V route and destination signs I have (they're about 4" x 25 1/2"). They've been sitting in a closet for some time and I notice they have some light rust on them. It varies a bit--some have some rust on the white lettering and some have it on the black background. All seem to have some on the tabs on the top.
The signs weren't wrapped in anything.
Would I be safe in using some lukewarm water with dishwashing detergent to clean them and then to put some regular paste wax--Johnson's or Simonize, for example--to preserve them?
I could experiment but I'd rather find out if anyone else has experienced this problem and dealt with it this way or some other way.
Thanks much,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Be very careful with any detergent.
I had two different experiences, one sign cleaned up very nicely, and the other sign's lettering almost washed off. The white lettering got very thin, and the black started to show through.
Some people spray a clear coat of lacquer on their signs to prevent further deterioration. Others rub them with oil. Some don't do anything. You will have to decide which is best for you.
I would suggest that you get them out of the closet, and on the wall where you can enjoy them.
The same goes for cloth roller curtains, especially the ones printed on both sides. I started scrubbing away on the GG portion of my R-1/9 sign box's route curtain, and the white paint started to bleed.
I was just looking at some metal Lo-V route and destination signs I have (they're about 4" x 25 1/2"). They've been sitting in a closet for some time and I notice they have some light rust on them. It varies a bit--some have some rust on the white lettering and some have it on the black background. All seem to have some on the tabs on the top.
The signs weren't wrapped in anything.
Would I be safe in using some lukewarm water with dishwashing detergent to clean them and then to put some regular paste wax--Johnson's or Simonize, for example--to preserve them?
I could experiment but I'd rather find out if anyone else has experienced this problem and dealt with it this way or some other way.
Thanks much,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
TLC 45 Jan 06 08:00pm
Chemical spills; sabotage; uncontrolled track crossings; subway incidents.
Original Airdate: January 6, 2002.
Allen: Thanks for the tip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
For anyone who missed it, it runs again at 11 ...
Which # is TLC 45? Does it run in the Boston Area?
"The Learning Channel" ... satellite, cable only ... check local listings, it's called "TLC" in most guides ...
they didnt include anything subway related i believe
just some kids getting run over and a cult gang pulling a screw causing a derailment
I wasn't the one who recommended the program, merely let folks know where it was and where to cop the rerun. I *do* hope the interviews with BLE members at the end got the attention of some who think taunting conductor Darwin is a hoot though ... I have plenty of friends who have been through that too ...
And of course, they just HAD to identify Cajon Pass, California as "El Cajon Junction".
The San Diegan that ran over the kid wasn't "Amtrak 557" either. More like 575 at the time of day they reported. I don't think they ever had a 557 out here. I remember when that thing happened, about 12 miles from my place -- that woman was on a campaign to get the trains to creep through her neighborhood, that wasn't shown in the program.
That's probably a good thing. Giving neurotics like that woman TV time will only get her much-needed attention. NIMBYism (oh and campaigning against railroad operations) should be punishable by death. I've never been run over by a train, so where the fuck is the problem?
In New york that should be 52 if you have Time Warner.
Nothing on Malbone St, I think. Or even the drunk Lex T/O at 14th about 10 years ago.
Actually, the railfans who do fieldtrips should call themselves the Malbone Street Irregulars. I doubt many affiliated with the TA would know what it meant, and those who did would smile.
"Malbone" is probably one of the most obscure majors except to us nutcakes here - and yeah, I rode with the inner circle of the Malbone Boyz on Kissmoose. I know there was a show that had the 14th Street wreck as one of its segments, but NBC Educational (TLC, et al) isn't interested in something so limited in scope for a nationwide audience as what went on in NYC so I wasn't really expecting anything subway related.
And the Malbone Boyz REALLY go to town when a certain gate car at Branford rolls. :)
Heeeeyyy! I resemble that remark!
;-D
Hahahaha ... I can mark you as "present" then. :)
If ONLY you knew how MUCH Nancy and I were into the Malbone thing. There are times that I *swear* my own obsession with it is based on my having died in the original disaster. And I swear YOUR obsession with it is likely based on you having been on the train too. But that's WAY too Hindu for the both of us ... and then again, do you have a BETTER excuse? It ain't joyriding the rut ... you and I had that both in common since childhood ... must be deeper ...
We're in good company as Paul Matus can also be included in our 'elite fraternity'.
Did you ever get to see Paul Matus' '15 minutes of fame' on MetroTV spouting the history of the original Brighton Line? You missed a good segment.
;-D
Somebody get me magnetic oxide! "Transit transit" and other "cable access things" are never exported. Out here in the BOZONE layer, folks have a general concept that NYC has "subways" and that they look just like the TORONTO trains ... if they ever saw a GENUIINE NYC subway car, they wouldn't recognize it, but those paired-windows jobs on the Canadian metro *ARE* the BMT ... outside of NY, there is no sch thing as the IRt or the IND, there's the BMT ... ONLY ... that's what they sell at the sandwich shop *if* you have a coupon. :)
Would LOVE a dub of any such tape ... no gots ... hey, those of us who inhabit this place and a few others NEED to realize what a small minority we ARE ... we could get FEDERAL GRANTS if we had the smarts to ORGANIZE! Heh.
Kev, I'll see if I can secure you a copy (but first I need one for meself, since the original I had got erased accidentally...:-(
Kewl! I'm a sucker for train stuff ... oh ... you already knew that. :)
I missed the show. Was there anything on the two 1950 LIRR wrecks?
Not a damned thing ... in fact, it was typical "TLC/DSC/History Channel" BORING ... missed the first part, watched it twice and from a railfan perspective was NOT "Trains Unlimited" ...
Sadly, about all us subway flippers can get into is precisely what you get RIGHT here and on a handful of other NYC transit oriented sites. Yeah, we get our yayas on the D train, but the rest of the planet goes "yawn" and considers an intermodal freight the height of civilization. Hell, it's all *I* have locally ... "whoo-hoo! UPS trailers on flatbeds" ... now I've stained my pants. :)
But yeah, having both sides of steel wheels and rail, I'll take the R6-2, please. :)
You are quite right, Kev.
It's like if an accident didn't happen to Amtrak, CSX, Conrail or Burlington Northern, then it didn't happen at all...
Like the world of railroading only includes Class One Lines...
BMTman
WELL ... it pretty much does ... like I've said over and over, us subway freaks are SERIOUSLY mental defective and mongrel type individuals, the reason why American Flyer, Lionel or Kato has *YET* to release subway cars for their modelling fleets. Now I understand there's some limited providers like MTH and others who release limited quantities of NYCTA issue ... but as an *N* gauger, I might as well settle for a GG-1 - no subway cars for you ...
Let's grab the keys and the black bag of that T/O ... this train's making NO stops to 191st Street ... run like hell, this train's been hijacked! KOO-BA! :)
Jey, there ARE N-scale subway cars made by Kato -- they ARE Japanese prototypes, but I got to looking and with just a leeetle work, they could be made to look somewhat similar to R-38's. (The cars are actually the 2000-type that are in MSTS.) They come in a seven car set (two powered); just remove the pantographs and dress 'em up. I've been reeeeeeeallll tempted.
And Kato does make nice outdoor island and side platform sets that work just fine for subway stations.
I believe there's another brand -- "Green Max" -- and "Tomix" that also make Japanese subway cars that could be adaptable.
Oh, and you DON'T want those N-scale GG-1's. they're expensive and don't stay on the tracks very well. And they don't pull anywhere near what a real one could do.
*MY* subway set are Kato 103 replicas ... SORTA like the R27's as far as door and window appearances go - that's what *I* run on my desktop, soon to be a BVE route known as "Selkirk" ... probably two weeks if I don't get any BUSIER before release ... ain't had time to "neaten up my mess" of a BVE route ... but "R" equipment it ain't - the 103's have large front window FULL-WIDTH cabs on them and that ain't right. But it has had to do for me ...
And yeah, this is a DESKTOP railroad - GG1's wouldn't get up to speed until they hit the wall. :)
I might as well settle for a GG-1...
NOW you pushed my button!
#4800
Wonder what NYCTA "train ops" would think of the GG-1? THIRTY-TWO "notches" ... "OH, which one suits my mood today?" Heh.
Green Max has some N scale cars as well as Tomix and Kato, plus there are some N scale NYC prototype cars produced in resin (I think - might be styrene) from Images Replicas (he also imports some brass). Nice stuff - I've seen it at the East Penn meets - but the Green Max is more to my liking since my eventual subway scene will be a fictional line in a fictional city rather loosely based on New York, hence absolute authenticity isn't that important.
And my GG-1s will pull just about anything, providing the track is smooth - I've done a two-unit lashup and pulled nearly 60 Kato illuminated passenger cars much faster than a quartet of Kato diesels could.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, for the fleet here, we settled on KATO 10363, 10364 and 10365 "1960's 103 series" rolling stock that looks VAGUELY like the R27/30 class on the sides with front ends that are anything but subway. They suffice, along with a three car RDC set that emulates the old Poughkeepsie bus or those of the Hartford line. Does it for me. :)
I didn't get to see it, and am curious if there was anything about the 1859 Springbrook/Denslow Wreck in South Bend, Indiana.
My bro' was just visiting from DC and had the unhappy experience of putting his Metro Fare Card through the wash. What he ended up with was shreds of lint--you wouldn't even have a clue of what it was.
$12.35 remaining on the card down the drain (literally).
Has anyone had the experience of "laundering" a MetroCard? What were the results? Would the card survive, but the magnetic strip not? Could anything be recovered by TA computers?
I found one major difference between the NYC metrocard and the DC farecard. the DC one is made of paper, and is very easy to rip. the NYC one is made of some kind of paper laminated with plastic. its very difficult to rip. but i think running them through the wash wouldnt be one of the smarter things one could do with them.
Has anyone had the experience of "laundering" a MetroCard? What were the results? Would the card survive, but the magnetic strip not? Could anything be recovered by TA computers?
I did that once, it survived just fine.
If I was a Consumer Reports tester and I was testing the durability of fare cards, judging by the posts about the fare card from the DC transit system it would earn a rating of "Not Acceptable".
#3 West End Jeff
It flips over at 37.8 mph? :)
--Mark
No, it dissolves in 120 degree water in a gentle cycle.
My sources in Vegas are adept at laundering cash, but were stumped at the concept of laundering a MetroCard.
This is one instance where tokens would be superior to a stored-value card.
They are paper. Most paper objects don't survive the laundry. Too bad its in shreds because otherwise you might be able get another one. One more reason why SmarTrip is better than a standard paper card.
They are paper. Most paper objects don't survive the laundry
With the notable (and fortunate!) exception of money.
U.S. "paper" money is actually cloth.
I have a few questions concerning the AirTrain and a possible LGA AirTrain.
1.Is the Port Authority planning a LaGuadia AirTrain?
2.Is the MTA investing in the AirTrain?
3.If there is going to be a LGA AirTrain will it involve any connections with the IRT lines?
4.Is the Newark AirTrain suppose to be extended to any terminal?
5.Off Topic, besides the Bridges, Tunnels, subways and buses does the MTA control any other forms of transportation?
I have a few questions concerning the AirTrain and a possible LGA AirTrain.
1.Is the Port Authority planning a LaGuadia AirTrain?
Nothing but talk.
2.Is the MTA investing in the AirTrain?
It's a Port Authority project, funded by a federal tax on airline tickets. I don't know if the MTA is paying for the renovations to Jamaica Station and Howard Beach.
3.If there is going to be a LGA AirTrain will it involve any connections with the IRT lines?
One idea that's been proposed is a branch off the 7 train.
4.Is the Newark AirTrain suppose to be extended to any terminal?
Newark doesn't have an AirTrain in the JFK sense. What it does have is a monorail that runs between the terminals, to certain parking areas, and now to a station on the Amtrak/NJTransit Northeast Corridor line.
Too bad they didn't extend PATH to EWR
That's in the works. PATH is conducting a feasibility study.
AirTrain: "It's a Port Authority project, funded by a federal tax on airline tickets. I don't know if the MTA is paying for the renovations to Jamaica Station and Howard Beach."
MTA budgeted $75 million for a complete Howard Beach renovation (full ADA compliance both platforms, new station building, better integration with AirTrain, etc.) The Port Authority is paying $100 million of the $387 million cost of a new Jamaica Station.
Newark doesn't have an AirTrain in the JFK sense. What it does have is a monorail that runs between the terminals, to certain parking areas, and now to a station on the Amtrak/NJTransit Northeast Corridor line.
That sounds to me very much like AirTrain in the JFK sense.
I want to praise TD, much as we often disagree, in re his expressed attitude toward the job. He approaches the ideal. In turn, I also favor passes for ALL city enployees as a job perk.
I was at Chinatown today -- was there eating very good fude with my friend Austin. It only cost $5.00. On the way back, we went to the Chinatown Orange Line stop to catch a train. We had quite a wait for the train. There was an older gentleman who was standing on the platform waiting for the same train. He spat thrice from his mouth onto the trackbed. He had grey hair, which was once black, brown eyes, and was about 5'4". He also mumbled to himself in a language which was not English.
That behavior is quite normal in NYCT stations as well.
You sure got a good description of him, planning on going to the cops?
Yesterday around 2 AM I was riding on a manhattan bound E and there was this angry white man who is probably in his lates 30 board the train from 63rd Drive and starting cursing at everyone including me on the train. As the train stop at Steinway St Station, he immediately spat on the empty bench across from where I'm sitting and then left the train. I guess something must have set him off earlier.
>>I guess something must have set him off earlier.<<
That could be one of the following:
1) The (V) wasn't running.
2) The Metrocard vending machine would accept his crinkled bills.
3) The bartender threw him out for throwing salted peanuts at the TV screen.
4) His girlfirend left him for another guy and took his weekly unlimited Metrocard with her. That could explain why he went to the bar to get soused.
5) Telemarketers got the best of him.
6) heypaul ran over his foot with his bicycle.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>6) heypaul ran over his foot with his bicycle<<<<<....Ha Haaaa... Ha......(LOL). Now thats a nice one
U forgot, he was fired from his Job
If you hock a clam onto the third rail, is it gonna cause sparks?
:-)
Five bucks for good Chinese fude? You have to let me know where so next time I'm in Boston I can check it out. Just joking.
What you saw is nothing new -- probably another immigrant who didn't make his million bucks in a week so right away 'America no good'.
...along came Jack and Jill and they all
lived happily ever after...
the "grey hair which was once black" line
gave it away.... and there is no orange line
in NYCT subways...
I forgot to mention that it was the MBTA Orange Line.
WAS THIS NYC OR NOT?????????/
I DUNNO
MBTA is Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority or some variant thereof. So the answer is no.
As long as it's not the platform, it's no big deal to me.
From the Mon 7 Jan Times:
certain important participants are pushing to have the rough outlines of an overall redevelopment plan that includes offices, cultural institutions and residential buildings settled upon within three months or so.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/07/nyregion/07SITE.html
Silverstein says he's gonna start rebuilding 7WTC by the end of the year. The article (and I!) suggest otherwise. It sounds like he and David Childs are conspiring to rebuild the Great Wall of Vesey Street, probably even more pedestrian-unfriendly than before.
There you go jumping to conclusions again! Not for nothing, but can you maybe think positive? Let's see what the plans are and then start bitching about it if you feel it's warranted.
If they really want to do something useful, not only rebuild 7 WTC, but also help CUNY rebuild one of its buildings that was next to Ground Zero, because if you have been noticing advertisements recently, there are going to be a lot more students going up and down the #1 beginning January 29th.
Rebuilding WTC 7 would be a great start. Let's just hope the new CEO of New York dosen't put the emergency command bunker back in there. Not only was it building on a giant bullseye, all its diesel fuel probably burned the building.
Absolutely. Seven is a "key" in another way -- the basement holds the Con Ed substation for the area.
It amazes me that they put the command center at the WTC to begin with., especially after the 1993 bombing.
In any case, I think the architects did a real good job in building those towers, since it has survived the 1993 bombing, the old UHAUL truck slamming into the basement, and the South Tower for 56 minutes after a BOEING 767 smashed through. and 1 hr. 40 mins. for the North Tower.
Also, was the bombing in BOTH of the basements, or only under one tower?
In any case, I think the architects did a real good job in building those towers, since it has survived the 1993 bombing, the old UHAUL truck slamming into the basement, and the South Tower for 56 minutes after a BOEING 767 smashed through. and 1 hr. 40 mins. for the North Tower.
I was talking to my aspiring architect friend who attends Pratt Inst. In Brooklyn and and he had been told by those in the know that the whole WTC Invincibility thing was somewhat of a public whitewash. For example, many professionals have found that if the 1993 bomb van had been 6 feet over it would have brought the whole tower down. Also there was a huge design flaw in the truss floor system in that if one truss failed a whole row of them would fail. This would leave a large unbraced gap in the verticle columns, which would then start to bow outward resulting in a collaspe. There were also problems w/ the fireproofing flaking off. None of these played a roll in 9/11, but they were not the best designed buildings.
That is new to me, I never knew the 1993 bombing came so close to collapsing the north tower.
Would one tower collapsing weaken the other? I would think so.
WTC wasn't the best of skyscrapers. It was a rather dull building designwise, it wasn't built the sturdiest way, so in windy situations I've heard people on upper floors got sea sick. I've also heard that because the PA built the World Trade Center NYC fire codes DID NOT apply. That frankly is quite disturbing.
Hopefully the rebuild plan will design better and more fashionable buildings, like City Spire and the new Bear Sterns building.
I would like a Rockefeller Center like layout, with new enclosed subway and PATH connections. The mall should have seating and a food court area, unlike the old WTC mall. Also it most definately should be connected to the WFC.
It has been made clear 4 50 story buildings would be the best way to re-claim the office space but one or two of the buildings should have an un-occupied tower with perhaps an observation deck and a new TV mast to replace the old one.
A memorial should be in the center of the new WTC complex.
It would be nice to have an observation deck with a memorial on any new WTC. Even if the building is only 60 stories tall., of cource a far cry from what was there. By the way how tall is the highest building in the Financial Center, I hope the new WTC will be at least a little taller than those buildings.
I am surprised at how everyone is surrenderring to the money men on this. The new WTC should be at least 110 floors. $ilver$tein does not own the property. Pay his insurance claim (pointedly singular) and dismiss him.
Oh I agree completely. I hate the fact that they are talking about shorter buildings. And I hope there is a push to rebuild something tall there again, but I just don't see it happening. It is next to impossible to get anything built in NY. When I mentioned an observation deck on the shortewr buildings, it was just my way of hoping there will be at least something the general public can visit along with tousists that at least will be in the air with a view. No way anywhere near what was there but at least something. I just hope that I am wrong and they do build tall buildings there again.
I completly agree.
There's a part of me that would like to see the world's tallest building built there.
The other part says that no one would rent it and it would just be another target.
In the WTC in Newsday thread someone sugested a space needle type building, with an observation deck. That wood solve the problem of height and no one renting high. Then build the new trade center with 60-70 story buildings around it.
As much as I think the Space Needle is silly-looking, that sounds like an interesting idea. Maybe something a little more graceful looking. I'll have to search for that thread.
Yeah, it sounds like a nice compromise between economical sense, and gaining back the height we once had with a space needle type bstructure. No one would mind going up high to the observation deck for a few hours, and you'd still have the economic sense of office buildings up to around 70 stories that people wouldn't be scared to rent or work in.
I'm shifting my responses over to here.
Thanks for the info on the thread.
A 110 story replacement would be a great symbol. Unfortunately, no one would rent the top 50 floors, and therefore no one will build it.
A 110 story replacement would be a great symbol. Unfortunately, no one would rent the top 50 floors, and therefore no one will build it.
That's what they said about the first WTC. 20 Years later it was the hottest property in Manhattan. If they put an Air Force missile battery in the top 10 floors of one there would be no problem.
Unfortunately, no one would rent the top 50 floors, and therefore no one will build it. ... That's what they said about the first WTC. 20 Years later it was the hottest property in Manhattan.
The reason the WTC didn't rent in the early '70s had *nothing* to do with height. It was because the PA flooded the market with office space during a recession. So they had to put state offices into it until the most recent economic up cycle, when they could evict them for higher-paying financial industry tenants.
And "20 years later" was pre-9/11. Fears may fade over time; New Yorkers have short memories and real-estate greed usually wins. But tall buildings just aren't as profitable as ones around 50 stories. The infrastructure required for the upper floors makes the lower floors much less spacious, even with "sky lobby" elevator systems. Note that the 110-story buildings were not built by a private developer, but by a public agency.
The design efficiency of 50-story office buildings plus perceived tenant resistance to renting higher floors means neither Silverstein nor anyone else will build 110 stories of offices there again unless they were to be HUGELY subsidized. And they won't be.
It's theoretically possible, however, that a 50-story office tower with something 60 stories high on top of it could be built. I will be fascinated to see the design studies that emerge. This is one TOUGH architectural assignment.
This is about more than efficiency, it is a matter of national pride and the local economy. The large buildings act as a magnet that anchor the local economy. The large concentration also eliminates sprall which serves a public good. Something special needs to go on the WTC site. Either a 100+ story building or a park. Anything else is basically spitting on the grave of 3000 people.
Anything built on the WTC site, especially a large building, will be a target for every terrorist, wannabe, and nut case in the world.
Would YOU want to work there?
I'd be willing to work on the 50th floor of a 50 story building. It would blend in with the neighborhood.
The Empire State Building is a target just the same. If that came down, then the Chrysler Building would be a target, and so on. Why don't we just live in underground concrete bunkers?
Yes, every tall building is a target. Whatever is built on the WTC site will be even more of a target. Remember, this was the second try.
Leaving the area unbuilt would remind us that we have to be vigilent at all times -- as a former secretary of state once said, at any given time 2/3 of the world is awake and plotting against us. However, I think that we will rebuild, and, if so, I would suggest nothing higher than 30 stories or so.
A good reason against a higher building is the simple fact that you now have to assume everyone above the impact level will die. The fewer exposes, the less risk. Also, since the time for the fire department to climb the stairs is about one minute a floor, you don't want to make it impossible for them to get there in time.
PS - I was on the 11th Floor of 7 WTC when the first plane hit -- about 120 yards away (horizontal). Sorry, being aimed at once in my life and seeing the effect up close and personal is enough.
A building w/ a concrete core (like the ones in Malaysia) is much more resistant to fire and impact. Furthermore, people above the impact point would be able to get down. I think we should have two new WTC towers, the same on the outside, but stronger on the inside.
First, they should have a no-fly zone over Manhattan from the GWB all the way down to the Statue of Liberty. Then, they should build a cluster of skyscrapers surrounding a memorial park. The plan will be as follows:
70 70+ 70
60 Memorial 60
50 Plaza 50
40 50 40
Any skyscraper with more than 50 stories should have missiles at the top, and those with over 60 stories should have a vulcan cannon at the top, which can fire 11,000 rounds a minute at any plane that enters the no-fly zone.
Leaving the area unbuilt would remind us that we have to be vigilent at all times
The people who propose turning the entire site over to a dead memorial (as opposed to a living memorial with people living, working and playing within) are fools. Just because the destoyed towers are part of the World Trade Center, doesn't mean the entire site should be condemned to death. By the same logic, all of Lower Manhattan should have been closed as a memorial because the Twin Towers were a part of it.
Thank god the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't listen to you. Maybe those cities should have been left open to remind us of why the bomb should never be used again?
An empty site would be nothing more than a grave. Last I checked, interment is illegal in Manhattan.
However, I think that we will rebuild, and, if so, I would suggest nothing higher than 30 stories or so.
At least 60 story towers are locally promiment. Thirty story towers are nothing more than a waste of space and materials, new buildings lower than 40 stories should be banned in Downtown and Midtown. As it is now, they might as well be since nobody is building any. New York could never have advanced to the level it has if there was a height limit.
A good reason against a higher building is the simple fact that you now have to assume everyone above the impact level will die.
Everybody below the impact level will also die. The failure of a larger number of people to evacuate is a function of confusion and limited exits. Had the towers held longer, people stuck because of blocked exits would have made it out, the deaths at the time would be limited to those at the impact point. Helicopter evacuations (assuming buildings remain standing) would solve the problem if all exits were blocked.
Life has risk. All of an airplane's engines can fail, causing a deadly crash that kills everyone aboard, yet travel by plane is SAFER than surface travel. People continue to fly in planes (except for idiots who fear planes and increase their chance of death by driving) and drive, even though everyone knows they can die. All of the above forms of travel are still more likely to kill you than a terrorist attack. More people have died in car accidents than in every war the United States has fought, combined, yet look at any road today.
The only thing that can guarantee 100% safety is the grave.
I was on the 11th Floor of 7 WTC when the first plane hit -- about 120 yards away (horizontal). Sorry, being aimed at once in my life and seeing the effect up close and personal is enough.
Some people who get into near-misses with their car don't drive again, most do however. Even if one doesn't drive after a near-miss, it doesn't affect another person's desire to continue to do so.
If you fear tall buildings, fine, but you are not all people.
I have to agree with all of your responses. Especially about leaving the site vacant. That is totally ludicrous. First of all it would leaving a gaping whole, an open wound that never heals, like an ulser. That is not fitting for the memory of all those who died. They must not die in vain, otherwise the terrorists do win. Unfortunately we may never have 110+ there again. Put it must be at least 60-75 stories, that would set it off against the financial center. Even taller would be great, but the talk about 30 stories is crazy. Even small cities have taller than 30 stories. What are we progressing into the past?
30 stories? Do they think the WTC was in Brooklyn? We need tall buildings again, ones that are taller than the WFC - even by 10 stories would do it.
I like the thrust of your post. We may not get a 100-story building, but Mayor Bloomberg has clearly indicated we will get economic development at the site.
You can have economic devolopment anywhere. The WTC site needs something fitting of the name "World Trade Centre II". Maybe when Jersey City builds the 120 story "We're Better Than You" centre, NYC will get its act toether.
Mike, we don't usually agree on too many things, but you are right on the money on this.
The large buildings act as a magnet that anchor the local economy. The large concentration also eliminates sprall which serves a public good.
It's not individual buildings that anchor the local economy, it's the concentration of space in the same district.
Something special needs to go on the WTC site. Either a 100+ story building or a park. Anything else is basically spitting on the grave of 3000 people.
I agree with your first sentence, not your second. My definition of "something special" is more expansive ... I wanna see what the planners and architects come up with before I pass judgement.
Remember, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial -- one of the single most moving pieces of artwork/architecture/monument I've ever had the privilege to view -- couldn't possibly have been envisioned before Maya Lin created it. I'm hoping that the WTC site can have something similarly moving. I just don't think it has to be a 100-story building. I do hope the memorial has some kind of park-like setting, but even that I'm holding back on til I see the ideas.
Frankly, I hope there's a design competition.
Remember, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial -- one of the single most moving pieces of artwork/architecture/monument I've ever had the privilege to view -- couldn't possibly have been envisioned before Maya Lin created it. I'm hoping that the WTC site can have something similarly moving.
At the risk of getting a few people aggravated with me... I don't see any real comparison between the WTC attack and Vietnam. The two are drastically different, by many orders of magnitude. Yes, what happened on 09/11 was a tragedy, and yes, some form of memorial should be made, but the scale of the memorial should be appropriate to the scale of the loss. A WTC memorial on the scale proposed by many on this board would be a slap in the face to the young men and women who gave their lives in Vietnam in the service of their country, young people who served rather than running away, young people who were proud to be Americans. I don't mean to disparage anyone who was lost in the WTC tragedy - far from it. Many died as heroes. I simply feel that we need to keep things in proper perspective.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't see any real comparison between the WTC attack and Vietnam. The two are drastically different, by many orders of magnitude.
Hoo boy!
First, I used the VV Memorial solely to convey the emotional impact of a built monument. I intended no particular comparison of the Vietnam War and 9/11.
However, I would venture to say many Americans (those under 35 or so) have few if any memories or first-hand knowledge of Vietnam. The emotional impact of 9/11 to them will always be far greater. This is, if you like, their Vietnam.
Every generation has different touchstones. I don't think that making a 9/11 memorial bigger, grander or more moving depreciates the value of the VV Memorial. It's not a zero-sum game.
However, I would venture to say many Americans (those under 35 or so) have few if any memories or first-hand knowledge of Vietnam. The emotional impact of 9/11 to them will always be far greater. This is, if you like, their Vietnam.
It's true that the under-30s don't have any memories or first-hand knowledge of Vietnam (my 34-year-old daughter remembers some of it), but 9/11 was just one moment in time. I don't believe it will define a generation as Vietnam has done. The technological changes of the last seven or eight years, and those yet to come in the next seven or eight, will define theirs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
50 Story buildings aren't going to move anyody. We have those in Philly. I can get the same experiance and save the Amtrak fare.
50 Story buildings aren't going to move anyody.
The buildings are not the memorial. The memorial is, whatever it turns out to be.
Yes they are, If the private sector will not properly redevlop that site then the government should do it. USE MY TAXES
A memorial on top of the 50-60 story buildings -- something like a lighted arch between two of the four towers that would also be accessible at the top for an observation deck -- would solve the problem of the structure's reduced height.
The offices would remain lower than 500 feet, making them easier to rent due to post-Sept. 11 fears, while the memorial -- if it were about the height of the Gateway Arch in St. Louis -- would put the observation level back up at about the 1,000-1,100 foot mark that the old WTC observation deck was located at. Black buildings with a silver arch (or red, white and blue if you're patriotic) lit at night a la the top of the Empire State building and angled at a diagonal to the downtown street grid would provide a view of the memorial that could be seen not just from downtown but across the metropolitan area, the same way the Twin Towers were when they were standing.
That's not such a crazy idea. I thinlk any memrial should be on top of any buildings built there as opposed to on the gr4ound. It must be somewhat feasible. How tall is the space needle, that's built not as a real usable building, but sort of like a symbol. On a smaller scale the Stratusphere in las Vegas is built as a symbol. (Iknow that's a totally different situation. In Las Vegas, people just leave their money and almost anything could be built)
The Space Needle is IIRC about 500-600 feet tall. The Eiffel Tower is just under 1000 feet, and the CN Tower (the tallest free-standing structure in the world) is over 1800 feet. The tallest manmade structures in the world are guyed antenna masts with heights in the low 2000's (don't recall the latest numbers).
Compare that to the Chrysler Building at 1000 feet, Empire at 1250, WTC towers at 1360, and Sears at 1450 feet.
Thanks that puts it into perspective a little better.
Thanks that puts it into perspective a little better. By the way in Malysia, the tallest buildings, how much taller were those?
I checked the facts again in the 2001 World Almanac:
The Petronas Towers clock in at 1480 feet each, and are the tallest "office" buildings (that is, measured to the top of the main structure) in the world.
The Sears Tower was the tallest in the world until the Petronas Towers were built, and is 1450 feet tall to the top of the structure.
The Jin Mao Building in Shanghai, China is 1380 feet tall.
WTC I and II are (were) 1360 feet tall. To the top of the antenna mast of WTC I was about 1700 feet, making it the tallest "building" in the world in that sense (notwithstanding the taller structures of Jin Mao, Sears and Petronas)
Other notables in NYC: Empire at 1250 feet (about 1400 to the top of the antenna mast), Chrysler at 1050, American International Bldg at 950 feet, Trump Bldg at 930 feet, Citicorp Center at 915 feet, Conde Nast building at 870 feet - I could go on for a long time. 1 Liberty Plaza and the American Express Building (3 WFC) are both about 740 feet tall, the Merrill Lynch Building (2 WFC) about 645 feet, and the Woolworth Building is about 790 feet tall, all not far from the WTC, and 7 WTC was 570 feet tall.
(I'd also note that the Verrazano bridge's towers are 700 feet tall, and the GWB's 600 feet tall, putting them in competition with the buildings in the vicinity of the WTC.)
As for towers - CN is the tallest at 1815 feet. This is the tallest unguyed structure in the world. There are others in the 1400 to 1700 foot range. The Eiffel tower is just under 1000 feet, and was built a century ago. The Space Needle is 605 feet tall.
From what I can gather, the tallest structures period are guyed antenna masts about 2000 to 2200 feet tall.
Given the advancement over the past 35 years in lighter weight construction materials, a 50-60 story arch connecting two 50-60 story buildings on the WTC site wouldn't be that unfeasable, and some sort of design could probably be factored in to to allow such a memorial to "break away' from the anchoring towers should it ever come under a similar terrorist attack. Bad news for anyone right below it or in the observation area, but it would increase the survival rate odds for the office workers.
The buildings themselves, at 50-60 stories, would be a tough target for any direct air attack, even from the west due to the World Financial Center, since the bulk of the buildings would be at or below the buidling line around it (and Osama's heirs would be unlikely to settle for the Woolworth Building as an alternate downtown target).
Osama's heirs would be unlikely to settle for the Woolworth Building as an alternate downtown target
At the risk of perpetuating an off-topic thread ... I have to think that if this particular attack method were tried again, the obvious targets are in midtown: Empire State Building, Citicorp Center, Pan Am building/GCT, probably in that order. First two easier to get to (fewer surrounding buildings at the 60-story level), but Pan Am does more damage 'cause of the GCT train complex.
Ugh.
One LAST suggestion on this general topic - "let's not give COPYCATS any ideas" and secondly, the NEXT terrorist attack, wherever it happens will also be a COMPLETE surprise - news to CNN, news to MSNBC, news to FOX ... but NOT to anyone who understands the mindsets at play here among REAL terrorists - already covered are "ship in a dirty nuke in a container boat," fly another plane (been done, so not really likely) into a nuclear plant (covered also) and a raft of other "ain't been done yet, oh sheet!" scenarios ...
DON'T ASSUME (Odd couple blackboard show) that the "next trick" will be something you planned on, and SIMILARLY, don't expect it to be in NEW YORK ... might be Dallas, Atlanta or Chicago, but their whole "trip" is element of surprise and "wow factor" ... more likely 50 shopping malls at one time get rocketed ... sure "destroys the economy" even if people won't realize the other "modus operendi" of "been there, done that, let's do something ELSE next time" ... and yes, the "mall thing" is covered also ... I'll say no more.
Fer Krissakes, STOP cowering in a bunker ... STOP letting the bastards win by people's spending their otherwise CREATIVE TIME on this ... put your thoughts into something USEFUL ... no offense intended towards any one party, but the more time we waste on this crap, the more HONOR we're giving the bastards ... DON'T give them the damned time of day ...
Fer Krissakes, STOP cowering in a bunker ... STOP letting the bastards win by people's spending their otherwise CREATIVE TIME on this ... put your thoughts into something USEFUL ... no offense intended towards any one party, but the more time we waste on this crap, the more HONOR we're giving the bastards ... DON'T give them the damned time of day ...
BEAUTIFUL! No one could be any more right than you are right now.
During one of the stupid "terrorist attack warnings" around October or so, my father asked me if I believed that I should be afraid of a terrorist attack (I don't remember what exactly the question was). I responded by saying the same thing you did about surprise, and then going on to say that "Death is sweeter than a life in fear."
Sorry for being "agreeable" but when you and I have gotten past preconceived notions, we've almost always agreed actually. I meant what I said ... I know you've seen urban and suburban realities while I favor the cow pastures, and you and I have always seemed doomed to the old "Bronx handshake" here and there, but we really do agree more than we don't ... you and I BOTH have a low tolerance for "el toro caca" even if we're both from different times in the continuum. :)
TERRORISM is about making people be their OWN worst enemy ... and fighting YOURSELF is counterproductive ... if ONLY CNNBCMSNFOX could get a clue and stop aiding and abetting the ENEMY ... whoop, way off topic ... moo.
(I am surprised at how everyone is surrenderring to the money men on this.)
Don't you live upstate, John? Do you want your state tax dollars going into new office buildings in NYC? I certainly don't want my local tax dollars going there.
Let the public sector build the Second Avenue Subway and similar things. Let the private sector build the buildings.
I would gladly increase my taxes to pay for such a project. The FEDERAL government should be taking the lead on this as it is a NATIONAL issue
I would gladly increase my taxes to pay for such a project. The FEDERAL government should be taking the lead on this as it is a NATIONAL issue.
I suspect you're probably in a minority. I suspect most Americans would gladly support a portion of their tax dollars going to the victims of the tragedy, but I'm not sure they'd view Larry Silverstein as falling into that category. Maybe make up any shortfall in his insurance to pay him out of the lease, or something.
But governments getting into the business of building something that the private sector does well -- like commercial real estate -- is viewed by most Americans as A Bad Idea.
The WTC itself, remember, would not have been built as tall as it was if it had been built by a private entity. Most likely it wouldn't have been built in that form at all. And I think I'm of the opinion that it's a good thing that the PA will not be rebuilding the office space, residential and commercial pieces of it.
Although in the Daily News description of the PA/TA passageway/transit hub, it does sound like they wanna build a LOT of stores. Underground mall, anyone?
KEEP $ILVER$TEIN OUT
KEEP $ILVER$TEIN OUT
Why?
he wants small buildings
[why we should keep Silverstein out]
he wants small buildings
Can you blame him? He knows full well that people are going to be very reluctant to rent the upper floors in 110-story buildings. And he's a businessman, in the deal to make money, not to make a political or social statement.
Business sense has no place here. BUSINESS MEN ARE NOT GOD. USE MY EAXES. It's an AMERICA thang.
>>It's an AMERICA thang. <<
When Ramzi Yousif, the maker of the bomb used in the 1993 attack, was flown by helicopter over the WTC, one of the officers told Yousif that his plan had failed and the towers did not fall. His response, "Next time, they will."
This is not about profit, it is about rebuilding for the public and future good.
This is not about profit, it is about rebuilding for the public and future good.
NYC is built. The only development is re-development, and on the whole, up-scale redevelopment. We are like a European city. Why tear it down in the first place? And if you do tear it down and replace it, will it destroy the neighborhood?
Re-development is best done in the public good. Silverstein wants four 50 floor blahs. The cop and fireman widows should start picketing his offices and residence.
We are about three months from the first official rebuild plan. It will undoubtedly follow what I have dubbed the 'fire hydrant rule', i.e., everyone in the place with any say over it will leave his mark on it. What they give us might smell like a subway platform.
It's up to us'ns to prevent a banal redevelopment.
I don't think the public would stand for a "banal redevlopment" overall for the site -- something will have to be bulit there as a reminder of what happened on Sept. 11.
But as far as any office space above 50 or 60 floors, unless the taxpayers of New York City, New York State and/or the federal government are willing to give Larry Silverstein a guarenteed subsidy for 100 to 110 floors of office space to be built in two towers above the bottom 50 or 60 floors, if it turns out that space is not rentable, then new buildings over 1,000 feet tall on the site are not going to be built (though I think a memorial attached to the buildings and above the office space that would rise up to the level of the old WTC is possible, since virtually no one would be working in the area higher than 600 feet above street level).
His remarks in favor of 50 story "towers" disqualify him. USE MY TAXES!
His remarks in favor of 50 story "towers" disqualify him. USE MY TAXES!
Not gonna happen.
What about all those NIMBYs who trounce the will of the majority.
Instead of complaining here to people who do nothing, maybe you, I and some like-minded PATRIOTS could create a vocal minority.
Of course it's just the young idealism that lets me say things like that, and that makes me fortunate, because I have not yet been introduced into the false line of thinking that one cannot fight City Hall.
That's a fine opinion, but not one consistent with the law. Whether you like Silverstein or despise him, he has a lease on that land and an insurance settlement of at least $3.5 billion coming his way. He has a legal right to build on that land.
All that the governmental powers have is the right to tell him what is allowed, within certain limits (i.e., the zoning function). But the land was zoned for 10 million sq. ft. of office space, and the courts have looked askance at radical downward changes in zoning where buildings have already been built.
So the government and through it the people can twist his arm but they can't tell him to go away altogether.
He has a legal right to build on that land.
That depends on the term of his lease. If I lease a house to I have the right to knock it down and build a new one? I would think that any major modifacations would require PA approval.
If I lease a house to I have the right to knock it down and build a new one?
Uhhhh ... Larry Silverstein didn't knock down the property he leased. Ten terrorists did.
So he gets compensated and the property returns to the lesor. That's how it works with railroad locomotives.
So he gets compensated and the property returns to the lesor.
It's entirely possible that could happen, depending on whether he gets $3.5 million or $7 million (one "event" or two?). But it may be he feels he'll make more $$$ over the long term by hanging onto the lease, building those 4 new 50-story buildings and continuing to act as landlord.
I wonder if his lease even addressed what would happen if a different quasi-governmental entity (Rebuilding Board) than the one he leased from (PA) decides that something different will go on the site he leased? What happens then?
It was a coordinated attack ONE EVENT ONE CHECK, $3.5 Billion.
It was a coordinated attack ONE EVENT ONE CHECK, $3.5 Billion.
I can argue both sides. There are apparently legal precedents for each side. But neither your opinion nor mine matters a whit. The courts will decide.
Since we're on the subject, here's a story from Newsday's website via the Associated Press on Traveler's Indemnity arguing for the single payout.
Insurers say one plane could have downed both trade center towers
I think it's a crock trying to count this as two events. It was ONE terrorist attack not two. I would even count the Pentagon in with that.......................... FOUR planes - ONE coordinated attack.
KEEP $ILVER$TEIN OUT.
Don't you live upstate, John? Do you want your state tax dollars going into new office buildings in NYC? I certainly don't want my local tax dollars going there.
Let the public sector build the Second Avenue Subway and similar things. Let the private sector build the buildings.
Of course, the WTC had been built with public money ...
Of course, the WTC had been built with public money ...
Well, public agency money. Don't believe there were government grants involved. IIRC, the PA covers all its expenses with revenues from bridge & tunnel tolls, port fees, etc.
Think of the PA more as a legally-sanctioned government monopoly on certain necessary infrastructural things -- kinda like a govt-owned Con Ed, I guess.
Not private investment, certainly, but not "my tax dollars" going directly to infrastructure either.
That is new to me, I never knew the 1993 bombing came so close to collapsing the north tower.
It didn't. Mike has simply repeated another urban legend.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My source on this is fairly respectable.
That may be, but that doesn't mean he has his "facts" straight.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Consider how much more damage each plane did compared to what a single bomb could have done, and yet the towers didn't collapse until the heat from the fire destroyed far more steel.
The plane that hit the north tower immediately destroyed a good portion of the skin and so much of the central core that no one could escape down any of the 3 staircases from above. And yet the tower above held until the heat from the fire melted much of the skin that hadn't been destroyed immediately.
So even if a bomb had essentially destroyed the whole core (unlikely since a Ryder truck doesn't hold that much explosive), the skin would have held the tower up.
But the plane impact was high up, so the weight to be supported by the remaining columns was less.
I agree it is unlikely that the truck bomb would have taken the tower down -- especially after seeking the relatively light structural damage. Remember, the cause of the tower's fall wasn't the damage to the outside or the core, but probably the loss of integrity in the floor beams causing a cascade of collapsing floors.
The reason it swayed is because it was designed that way. If the building was rigid the wind would have damaged it and it wouldnt had that much protection. The swaying abosrbs the forces induced by the wind. According to an article I read, a spring design is implemented into the foundation to make the building flexible
Rebuilding WTC 7 would be a great start. Let's just hope the new CEO of New York dosen't put the emergency command bunker back in there. Not only was it building on a giant bullseye, all its diesel fuel probably burned the building.
Actually, I hope what gets built on the 7 WTC site is VERY different from its predecessor. 7 WTC was a huge monolithic slab'o'building without grace, character or architectural distinction. The first building to rise over Ground Zero has to be pretty damn special.
I also hope that the old ROW of Greenwich Street, which 7 WTC was built over, is reserved so that Greenwich can be restored through the former site -- whether for cars or pedestrians. That decreases the footprint of the building, but makes far more sense in planning the entire site and reconnecting it to its neighborhood. I'd also think it would make restoration work and any future modifications to the IRT much easier.
They've hired David Childs of Skidmore Owings Merrill, IIRC, who's a respected architect. I'll be very interested to see what he comes up with.
Which building was #7 WTC. Was that that wierd black building that was wider on the top than the bottom? Or if not what was that strange black building?
Seven was technically not a part of the WTC itself. It was on the north side of Vesey Street.
The building lot was a trapazoid shape. In the original construction, the site was used as the location for a Con Ed substation. In the 80's, the Port Authority sold the air rights to Silverstein, who built Seven over the substation.
The "strange black building" -- was it on the east side of Church Street (the Millenium Hotel) or the south side of Liberty Street (the Deutche Bank Building)?
Is the Millenium hotel still closed? The building looks OK, I wonder when it will re-open.
It must be the Deutche Bank Building, because I know what the Millenium looks like, and that wasn't the one I meant.
Which building was #7 WTC. Was that that wierd black building that was wider on the top than the bottom? Or if not what was that strange black building?
Number Seven was the northernmost building, the one that wasn't on the rest of the WTC site. It was bounded by Barclay on the north and Vesey on the south, with Greenwich dead-ending into it from the north. It's next to the Deco brick Verizon building on West Street that was heavily damaged. 7 WTC was connected to the rest of the WTC complex at plaza level with a platform over Vesey Street that made Vesey a miserable dark ugly canyon as it descended down to West Street.
It was built by Larry Silverstein in the early '80s, IIRC, for a brokerage firm that went spectacularly bust. He finally put Salomon in there, I think.
I don't remember what color it was, but it had sheer sides all the way up for 50 stories or so. Trapezoidal shape. Not sure what the black building you're referring to would have been, unless it was the tall skinny hotel building across Church Street that used to be the Millennium Hotel. That's still there.
7 WTC was not built over the 1/9 lines. They were/are underneath West Broadway, immediately to the west. They only come underneath what used to be Greenwich St where West Broadway and Greenwich St formerly merged (pre-1970) just south of Vesey.
According to my Hagstroms, the only building on top of the 1/9 was the former 4 WTC at the south end of the site. The rest of the area above the line on the WTC site was plaza space.
http://wcbs880.com/apnews/2002/01/06/n/HeadlineNews/AP-NYC/20020106001909/news_html
I seem to recall a stolen pickup truck trying this last year. Maybe GM should install Hy-Railers as standard equipment. Where has our friend Heypaul gone to?
Another one is on the way!
Next weekend: No 1 Service between Chambers and New Lots, 4 service to NL.
All Uptown 2 Service via the East Side.
5 Service between Dyre Av and Times Square in both directions.
Work is not concentrated on the East Side this time around, but construction is happening somwhere in the Wall St Area on 7th Avenue.
Stay tuned....
-Stef
Better start putting annoncements on the whiteboards now.
You telling me? Heh. I'm on vacation until I return on the 21st, so I won't be dealing with this. BTW, how did the 1st Day of the new pick go?
-Stef
Mass confusion. Alot of extras getting assigned the wrong L/R jobs. Times, locations ect. Not to mention alot of people calling the desk to find out who's relieving them.
Great. I didn't see a Vacation Relief award sheet in any of the booths where I worked, so I figured there was a problem.
I hope nothing unpleasant awaits me when I return...
-Stef
It has been a pretty interesting week. And this is just Tuesday morning!
Good advice. I was at 149th-GC and there was great confusion over whether there was subway service to Lexington from the lower lever or not.
Speaking of which, a crowd condition developed at 3rd Avenue-138th Street Yesterday. Apparently, someone was under the impression that a shuttle bus service was available to 149th St-GC.
The buses were available in the southbound direction, towards 3rd Ave only.
RTO Control Center issued a statement via the radio waves, instructing Crews to remind customers to wait at 125th St for the 2 to the Bronx, and that buses were available in the Southbound Direction Only.
-Stef
Like anyone is going to read the whiteboard...
I've been screwed by skeds!!!! Don't have my car... would have called in for OT... news pointed out #2 off line on the weekend. Hope the rails get a gud fixemup. CI Peter
Yup, there is barebone tracks on the fulton curve. Probably some work there, or digging up some other track.
Concrete Pour, if they're finished...
-Stef
Stef: The curve right after Fulton on the northbound track are a skeleton. Previous GOs had the 2 single tracking btwn Wall and Chambers on the midnites since there is no loop for now. I guess its time for the concrete pour. I have to get ready for more confusion in both Bklyn and Manhattan. Ill email u later.
Thanks for the info.
-Stef
Is it safe to assume that, like last week, the 3 will run local and the 5 express?
This GO is very much analogous, in effect, to last week's. Last week, service from the Bronx to the East Side was severed; now, service from Brooklyn to the West Side is severed. One major difference, though, is that last week there was a shuttle bus to fill the gap while this week there's nothing. It seems like it wouldn't be difficult to run a single-track shuttle from Fulton (transfer from the 2/4) to Chambers (transfer to the 1) on the SB track (returning light to Fulton). With a bit more effort, the shuttle could continue up the local track to 14 (filling in for the 1, which has to run express) and back down the NB express track -- although the NB express track probably isn't reverse-signalled. (Imagine the confusion. Chambers would have NB local service on the NB express track, SB service on the SB express track, and NB express service on the SB local track. 14 would have NB local service on the NB express track, more NB local service on the SB express track, SB local service on the SB local track, and nonstop service to Fulton on the NB local track.) At the very least, transfer tickets should be used to permit the transfer from Chambers IND a block away.
Redbird fans: This may be your last chance to ride the thrilling Redbird express between 96 and 42. (Once the 2 returns to express service, I suspect the Redbirds will be gone from the line.) Ride it while you still can.
Yup. Service Patterns on the 3 and 5 shouldn't be any different.
Single tracking from Wall St to Fulton St sounds feasible, but others will disagree. It may be more of a headache than it's worth.
The only question I have since I am unsure of this, is how the 1s will operate over the weekend. Will they depart from the southbound express track, or the southbound local? If they leave from the express track, crews are going to have to get that train out as quickly as possible. Remember that there are southbound 2s still going through the area. Depart from the local track, and the train will go express to 14th St in the process.
-Stef
Express track at night, local track during the day. Notice that a different posted GO has the 1 running express from Chambers to 14, exactly as you predict.
No surprise there, IMO. When no GO is in effect, the night 1 terminates on the express track at Chambers, but the occasional daytime short-turns at Chambers are on the local, running express back to 14.
I recommended single-tracking from Fulton to Chambers, not Wall. The NB track at Wall is the whole reason for this GO. A shuttle from Fulton to Chambers would allow 2 passengers to transfer at Fulton and again at Chambers to get back where they belong.
Yes it would be difficult because, the shuttle trains would be in the way of the S/B 2 trains. Even though the 2 is operating at 10-12 minute headways. Lets see how it works out. Last week, people had a choice of riding the shuttle bus to 3Av-138St or staying on the 2 to Times Sq and shuttle over to the east side. Most chose the latter. This week there is no choice, everyone have to stay on or change at Atlantic Ave or Fulton St for westside/Lower Manhattan service.
I don't see the difficulty. The NB track is unused between Chambers and Fulton. How could a single back-and-forth shuttle train get in anybody's way?
The lack of choice is exactly why I think a shuttle would be appropriate.
BTW, where exactly was the work taking place last weekend? It looked like it was being done on the SB local track at 138 -- but if that's it, then the 4 could have run into Manhattan on the express track and the 2 could have run normal (but the 5 would have been cut back to E180 or sent to Times Square, since it can't reach the express track). Similarly, there didn't seem to be any point last weekend in sending the C express and D local from 145 to 59; the only work was at 42, and the C could have run local from 145 to 59 and switched there to the express.
Do you think single tracking would have worked out? What about the headways?
-Stef
That was exactly my point. Plus the work is being done on the curve on the north end of the station at Fulton. No way a shuttle go all the way to Fulton.
If the only work were at Wall, a single-track shuttle from Chambers to Fulton would have been fine. Ten-minute headways would have sufficed.
However, when I rode through on Sunday, work was being done on the northbound track at Fulton as well. That makes a single-track shuttle impossible, of course.
There's another GO coming up if you're interested, this time it effects the 5 between 149th St and 180th St, this weekend. Not sure what this is for, but I'll find out first thing Saturday Morning.... This may be for ongoing signal work but I'm not really sure.
-Stef
Thanks, but this one isn't terribly exciting; it's no different from the overnight 5. (I assume the 5 wasn't running at all this weekend south of E180; the GO wording implies that the 5 is also running between 149-GC and BG, but I find that unlikely.)
My guess is work on the jughandle at 149-GC or at the SF inner loop trackage.
No problem.
The work was on the downtown track at 149th St-GC, putting into effect single track operation of the 2 to 135th St.
-Stef
Interesting. I'm surprised the TA was willing to single-track a through service during daytime hours. I believe the 5 is terminating at E180 again this coming weekend; is this for the same work or is it on the other track this time?
Three weekends ago (when the 4 terminated at 149-GC), do you know where exactly the work was? The only work I saw was on the SB local track at 138. I'm sure there must have been more, or the 4 would have run through, bypassing 138 on the middle track, the 5 would have been cut to E180, and West Side service would have been unchanged (except, perhaps, for additional 2 service to fill in in the Bronx).
It maybe for the same work as before, but I'm unsure of this.
As for the work on the 4, they were performing a concrete pour on the track in the south tube under the Harlem River, causing that weekend's GO.
-Stef
Simplicity is why they swap the C and D. You'd have the A, C, and D all sharing the same track in the station at 59th if they ran normally north of it. A lot easier to lock the express track to 8th ave and the local to 6th ave.
Simplicity for whom? Simplicity for thousands of passengers trumps simplicity for the TA. (It didn't help that announcements at the CPW local stations neglected to mention that anything at all was running local.)
The A, C, and D could easily share a single pair of tracks at weekend headways. In fact, an occasional D could cross to the local track to get out of the way of an A/C, if necessary. Of course, that would require that the TW/O remain awake, which apparently is more of a demand than you'd like to make.
WCBS 880 is reporting this morning that the Queens private bus companies are on strike, and commuters are advised to "take the subway." OY, the QB and 7 lines will be busy this morning!
No snow in the city this morning, but an inch perhaps by this PM. Storm of the epoch? Nah.
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
14.8 inches of REALLY gloppy stuff so far at Selkirk, Albany county ... apparently we collected the "purple banana" with another 1-3 to arrive in an hour or so from the west. Had it been dry snow, 30+ inches would not have been a surprise. CSX is still running, everything else here is typical. First real snow we've gotten so far this year - the ski areas in the Adirondacks got anything from NOTHING to about 2 inches. Further north you go, the more "nothing" was received. Thought it might be useful for some weather color for the 'cast. :)
If the city got what we got, it'd be pandemonium. I suppose there's no rides to be had on the SET train today or I'd hop on Hamtrak. Heh. It's running too ...
I wonder if Thurston joined his colleagues in the wildcat strike this morning?
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe that's one we shouldn't ask ... you don't have wildcats though unless things had gotten pretty bad ... maybe they're discussing it over on the BT board. I like Thurston and all, but really ain't into busses. Too upstate a transportation form ... and up here, there's a lot of places (like where I live) where you can't even catch a BUS ...
That is too bad in a way, because I'm sure that they're are some people that would need a bus to get where they are going. At least where I live in Hastings-on-Hudson you have a good amount of bus service courtesy of Westchester County, and rail service that is provided by Metro-North.
#3 West End Jeff
True, but this is the HILLS ... either you have a car, a horse, or this time of year a dogsled. I'm so far out in the sticks, ain't no point in sending out busses. Nobody to ride them except roving gangs of Bambis and prowling bears and they beat the fare. :)
The M would see an increase in ridership since the QM24 serves Glendale. In addition, Q39 passengers, who ride from Glendale, Ridgewood and Maspeth to areas around Queens Plaza, utilise the route since subways in that area take them dirctly to Midtown Manhattan with no extra fare thanks to their MetroCards. All these people would have to pick up the M as well where passengers would have to connect with uptown trains to get to their destinations. The Queens IND and the #7 line would get the brunt of regular Queens Surface Express Bus passengers.
I expect most people who use the 2ueens Surface Lines in their morning commute use them as feeders to the subways. I doubt there will be a marked net-change in Queens subways ridership. It will hurt having to walk instead of ride to the subway stop for many, though.
Yup. I suspect that was the reason I had such trouble getting a spot today near Van Wyck Blvd.
:-) Andrew
Where's Mr. T when you need him?...;-D
"Where's Mr. T when you need him?...;-D "
Mr. T is over on Bustalk, where he reported that as of 11:49 AM:
The Strike is Over
CG
He was on the OTHER side of the picket line all the time.
Mr rt__:^)
Now don't those NIMBY's wish they had a Rockaway Branch, A Winfield line, a Montauk Branch subway!
avid
Now don't those NIMBY's wish they had a Rockaway Branch, A Winfield line, a Montauk Branch subway!
avid
A few express bus customers were waiting for the QM21 near my school, and one got the idea to call the company and ask why there wasn't any bus. She told everyone of the strike, and all 20 people went for the subway. Multiply that by every express bus stop in Queens every 10 minutes and you have one (1) assload of additional people.
Strangely, the subway this morning seemed less crowded. Maybe because people who normally txfr off the buses weren't able to get to their usual trains. I'll bet there was a 'late' rush hour this morning.
Wow, I had seen the notices on the buses, but I didn't know the strike had begun.
So, what was the deal with the guy who was driving the Q11 that I got on this morning at 8:30? I guess he was either some management guy, or else he is one of the workers who didn't get word of today's wildcat action.
Well, good luck to those guys, anyway. Parity with MTA people is an obviously just cause.
Just what is the history of those private franchises in Queens? Why are they still there? Isn't it true that some Manhattan bus routes were once run by private companies, only to be later taken over by the MTA? And weren't there also pay equity issues between the two sets of drivers there?
I am curious as to why these Queens companies have continued to control those routes.
By the way, in my experience of living in the Woodhaven area for the past 14 years, the Green Bus lines have been extremely reliable. I have always been pleased with the service on the lines I have used, the Q11, Q8, and Q10.
I just wish that the Green Lines didn't put two rows of double seats in their buses. They should put two seats on one side, and one on the other, like the MTA buses. Putting two rows of double seats makes that center aisle impossibly narrow, especially in the winter.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Because you didn't get a seat, you want 5 or 6 people to give up the ones they got! i don't think so!
avid
What a ridiculous response.
As it happens, due to the fact that I usually board the Q11 at Liberty Ave., I almost always wind up getting a seat, only to watch other people with coats and bags struggle with an impossibly thin aisle. But, sometimes I get on elsewhere along the run, and I am the one struggling.
Either way, the point stands -- the presense of two rows of double seats is a very poor design for the kinds of crowds that pack those buses.
And the discomfort is not just for the standees -- someone in a window seat who tries to get off at a stop that not a major one will face a mighty challenge getting to the door through the pack. The thin aisle just doesn't allow standees to move out of the way, so there is a type of human gridlock which can form. This does not happen on those buses which have only one set of double seats and a wider aisle, even with extreme crowds.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I moved to Brooklyn a couple of years ago, and I'm very curious as to what exactly is going on with Atlantic Ave. station (sometimes described as 'the worst place in the world'). Does the city intend to build anything in that giant hole in the ground? Should I be concerned about the structural integrity of the passages? Some areas of the station look like they're in imminent danger of collapse.
Is there any publicly-available information about this particular construction project?
Atlantic Av is undergoing a major renovation, to be accomplished over many months.
No, it is not at the point of collapse. You need not be concerned at all.
Both the BMT and IRT Atlantic Ave are undergoing renovations. I assume you are talking about the IRT Atlantic Ave. You'll be fine. As for the hole in the ground, who knows whats going to be there. I herd different scenarios myself.
Hey, Mike. I heard that one of the things that is coming to the IRT/LIRR Atlantic Avenue complex will be a 'food court', which I assume will be similar to what's already at Penn Station. KFC, McD's or Pizza Hut will likely occupy some of the space that is currently being created beneath the IRT tracks about mid-station. Most of the work though is a much-needed widening of the underpass at Atlantic. For years it has been a nightmare traffic-jam of people trying to get between Pacific & Atlantic trains of both IRT and BMT/IND or the LIRR.
BMTman
I use that station daily. Whatever they're doing, I hope they finish it soon. Its a disaster.
Whatever they're doing, I hope they finish it soon. Its a disaster
I wish they would build something on top of it all, too - like this:
What if they can't find enough old cars?
:0)
Or the Fifth Ave. El!
That would make a fine locatin for a Horn & Hartdart Resturanut.
avid
Ah! And what a treat it would be to see MP-41's coming and going from Atlantic Terminal!
We can still dream, can't we?
BMTman
If the final result is a wider passageway between the IRT and both BMT stations on the D/Q and B/M/N/R lines, it's worth being inconveninced right now. Perhaps they're making transfers from the LIRR to the 2 BMT routes here more convenient. Too many of the LIRR riders transferring to the subway here use the already overused IRT lines.
No I think he means Atlantic on the L train.
Sorry, I was reading the wrong thread. Disregard my previous post!
Just wait till they start ripping the roof Off Atlantic ave (Irt) Will be outdoors .Wont Morning Rushes be grteat in the rain.
My understanding is that the E train still goes to the WTC station to turn around, even though the official 'last stop' for passengers is Canal St. If someone were to forget to get off the train at Canal St. in order to sneak a peek at the WTC platform, particularly the doors that used to lead to the WTC mall, would that person get arrested, or just yelled at?
Probably not, but standing on the "through platform" next to it over Kissmoose, I *did* notice that the trains didn't seem to go ALL the way into the station, apparently just clearing the interlock for a relay and stopping before fully entering. No doors are opened, so I don't see it would be any kind of a safety issue if there were lingerers beyond the safety of the crews themselves. The EXITS are closed though, so no sneaking out of the relay ...
They are not going to see anything as the doors to the site are covered over by wood.
It would be difficult, they search the trains when they stop at Canal.
There are at least two platform conductors on permanent duty there.
They do a quick walk-through before the train goes down to reverse.
It's similar to the 6 train years ago. When I was about 20 (early 90's) they always made you set off at BB as it made the loop at City Hall. One day a friend and I wanted to sneak on the train to see the station which we'd never seen. The driver caught us, after some persuading, he was nice enough to let us stay on, and was actually happy we were interested in it. I don't know if they were supposed to let people stay on, because it seemed like something he wasn't supposed to do.
yea but now the 6 loop is legal. Motormen still bug me about it but there are no more cops to stop you. so i usually hang in the 2 or 3rd car and it works. C/R's no longer check either
I was assigned to Canal Street to clean out the E trains the other day. We were instructed to call for police if anybody refuses to leave the train or if we see anyone riding in there. The E crews, particularly the Train Operators, Walk through the trains when they get to WTC and they too will call the police if anybody is caught on the train. Remember, It's a crime scene and there was looting in the mall after 9/11 so they are taking it very seriously. Besides, The doors are completely sealed with a steel wall across the whole width of the mezzanine. There is nothing to see.
-Mark
I didn't see you there, were you there over the weekend?
Plus we don't open the doors at WTC.
Maybe I should ask the question on this thread.
Are the platform and station intact? Is there anything other than surface issues (keeping people away from ground zero) preventing them from reopening the station to customers? There are exits above the station that are now accesible outside the ground zero fence.
can't fully berth in the station check old posts
The station itself is there and you can watch the trains relay from the Chambers A/C platform.
Bowing to criticism from its passengers, NJ Transit is backing away from an attempt to eliminate its off-peak discount program, which accounted for 7 million tickets last year.
Article by Joe Malinconico in Sunday's Star-Ledger
Bowing to criticism from its passengers, NJ Transit is backing away from an attempt to eliminate its off-peak discount program, which accounted for 7 million tickets last year.
That's good. I was worried sick if this chance was obliterated. I support NJT for its fare increases, but when you cross the line, you've got criticizing and rebuking peoples on your back.
Here's a question:
What city in North America, which currently does not have heavy rail rapid transit, do you think is most in need of it? Where do you think the next subway system should be built?
I'd love to hear opinions on this matter.
Mark
Does Seattle have anything? If not, they could use a few real transit lines. Their railroad station is not in downtown, which has resulted in commuter rail service never being acceptable because then you'd still have to take a bus to downtown.
A good shuttle from the station to downtown, with an extension to densely populated mid-northern areas of the city, might be easily justifiable and then might stimulate commuter rail service.
On the other hand, WA residents don't believe in taxes, even for services they'd really like to have.
Yeah, I sometime follow the news stories about Seattle's attempt to build merely a light rail system and the going to often rocky.
Mark
My cousin lives and works in seattle. He & his peers like the monorail, and have pushed for it to be extended. The polits have instead proposed a wasteful lightrail system.
In what ways is the monorail more efficient than a light rail system, and what do the powers-that-be have to gain by opting for a separate light rail system instead of expanding the monorail?
Mark
monorail.org has a FAQ section. I agree with their analysis.
What if the Waterfront Streetcar line was expanded and incorporated into the light rail system?
Does Seattle have anything? If not, they could use a few real transit lines. Their railroad station is not in downtown, which has
resulted in commuter rail service never being acceptable because then you'd still have to take a bus to downtown.
A good shuttle from the station to downtown, with an extension to densely populated mid-northern areas of the city, might be easily justifiable and then might stimulate commuter rail service.
On the other hand, WA residents don't believe in taxes, even for services they'd really like to have.
Seattle does have a commuter rail line called Sound Transit. It's currently a rush-hour-only service running on a single line, from Tacoma to King Street Station on the southern edge of downtown. A second line, running north into Snohomish County, is under construction and other lines are planned.
As far as bus connections are concerned, Seattle does have an underground bus tunnel in downtown that functions almost as a subway, not to mention an extensive system of surface lines. Yes, most commuters taking Sound Transit will have to change to another transit mode to get to their workplaces, but that's no different than the situation in most rail-served cities. And note that things would be the same even if the Sound Transit rail station were more centrally located. I would consider downtown Seattle a bit too large - and some streets too steep - to be entirely within walking distance of any one location.
Finally, you are right about the tax issue. After two attempts were shot down in the courts, Washington voters approved stringent limits on property tax increases last November. There are concerns that these limits will make it much more difficult to fund many programs including transit. Washington's sluggish economy isn't helping matters.
What about Detroit and Houston. From what I know neither has any real rail system worthy of its name.
Detroit is currently in the process of trying to pay for the two new sports stadiums it had just built for both the Tigers and Lions (both of which have no teeth judging from their seasons ;-)). Throw that on top of a very depressed economy in that city and the situation there is hardly favroable for even light rail projects. (Hey, I'm still trying to figure out why commuter rail was killed in that city).
Houston is just as large and has a better economy than Detroit, but judging from an trip my mom took down there two years ago, transit isn't much of a priority down there; their bus service, according to her, run more like the Bee-Line's services rather than MaBSTOA/NYCT. So a subway wouldn't be much of a priority down there either.
Denver, on the other hand, has an activly expanding light rail network. At their rate, there should be at least talk of a subway in the not too distant future. Baltimore should continue to expand its Metro lines, while it would kill SEPTA to at least consider one more subway line through downtown Philly.
There will not be much of a Baltimore subway (1 line does not a Metro make) in the future. The money's just not there. If any extension does get built, look for a Hopkins-Broadway/Harford extension with Light Rail from there to Northeast and White Marsh. Maybe about 2060.
The only rail possibility is for an east side Light Rail line from Penn Station to Pratt & Howard, where it would tie into the existing line. Only the City seems interested. The MTA has no vision (the Double-tracking of the existing line has yet to begin, and the MTA's timetable is seven years !, despite the fact that a competant rail contractor could do it in 20 months, top.) and is basically a bus company with two small rail operations and a large bus one.
As to Philly, forget it. SEPTA does not have the money, and Pennsylvania's Legislature isn't going to give any more- they'd love to cut what what they do give even more.
There was talk in Denver of a 16th St. subway to funnel light rail trains downtown. It's not going to happen.
I will say this much: with the overwhelming success of the Southwest Corridor, demand for light rail is growing. It seems that Lakewood, Arvada, and Westminster, just to name a few, all want the next line to come to them.
The Central Platte Valley Spur (C/Orange Line in the new scheme) is slated to open in less than 3 months, just in time for baseball. I predict this line will become Denver's equivalent to New York's 4 and 7 lines. It will serve all three sports arenas.
>> What about Detroit... <<
Uhh..they don't call it "Motor City" for nothing...
I can see the press conference now: Edsel Ford and whoever the heads of Daimler-Chrysler & GM are now announce that the "Big 3" are getting together to underwrite "Motor City Light Rail".
Then again, maybe not...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Houston is very spread out, as are all TX cities. When you live in a single family home in town, chances are that you have a car.
And gas is CHEAP.
And gas is CHEAP.
For now. If, or should I say when, Saudi Arabia explodes, gas prices won't be so cheap any more.
Contrary to the nay-sayers, the world seems to be awash with oil, particularly in the Caspian basin and offshore from the Congo River's outlet in the Atlantic. Some of the nasty business Russia is having with places like Chechnya and Georgia have everything to do with the routing of oil pipelines to Turkey and Western Europe.
There is also the fact that cost-effective alternatives to our usual gas-guzzing internal combustion engines are in the pipeline. The figure I've read is 5-7 years before the price of gas begins its crash.
Contrary to the nay-sayers, the world seems to be awash with oil, particularly in the Caspian basin and offshore from the Congo River's outlet in the Atlantic. Some of the nasty business Russia is having with places like Chechnya and Georgia have everything to do with the routing of oil pipelines to Turkey and Western Europe.
All that's true, but the fact remains that Saudi Arabia still has the world's largest oil reserves, not to mention a disproportionately high percentage of the reserves that are easy and inexpensive to recover. For those and other reasons, the country effectively sets the world's market price for oil. It has been forecast that the fall of Saudi Arabia would boost world oil prices so high that a horrendous three full percentage points would be shaved off the U.S. economic growth rate for up to six months. That in turn would push the U.S. unemployment rate close to or even into double digits.
There is also the fact that cost-effective alternatives to our usual gas-guzzing internal combustion engines are in the pipeline. The figure I've read is 5-7 years before the price of gas begins its crash.
Again, there may be some alternatives, but today's (temporarily) low oil prices surely have slowed down the pace of development. It is essential for the nation's economic and political security to proceed full speed ahead on development of these alternative engines, and of course on better transit systems. But I fear that people aren't interested, thanks to low gasoline prices.
There is also the fact that cost-effective alternatives to our usual gas-guzzing internal combustion engines are in the pipeline. The figure I've read is 5-7 years before the price of gas begins its crash.
And what exactly are those? Hybrid vehicles (Toyota Prius, Honda Insight) are more fuel-efficient but aren't yet paying their own way (the manufacturers subsidize each sale). Soon they probably will be, but that's perhaps an incremental improvement of 20%. Nothing to sneeze at, but ....
Then there are fuel-cell cars, which may be sold to the public 7-10 years hence. But they still need fuel to run, and the ONLY fuel with a global distribution network is ... gasoline. Possibly there will be ways to plug them into wall sockets to separate the water into hydrogren and oxygen, but I don't know.
What were you referring to?
"Houston is very spread out, as are all TX cities. When you live in a single family home in town, chances are that you have a car."
And yet Dallas seems to be doing quite well, with expanding light rail and a successful commuter rail line from Dallas to Fort Worth.
Detroit has a elevated train line in the downtown similar to Vancouver's Skytrain. It also serves the Greektown neighborhood.
Greektown neighborhood
Does uosdwiS r. jewoH live there?
No, a monorail serves that particular Greektown.
Springfield Mark
The monorail is gone, instead people have to ride the bus and tell the difference between the 22 and 22A while not talking to the driver.
But the 22A takes you to the Russian District, not Greektown. :)
Mark
The 22A goes to Sycamore Avenue, Little Newark, Crackton, Airport Refueling Way, Industrial Access Road, Army Proving Ground and Rural Route 9. One has to walk from Rural Route 9 through Area 51-A (YOU ARE HERE, WE ARE NOT) to get to the Russian District, which is 6 blocks from the Springsonian.
I think it would be hard for Seattle to do a lot of expansion of commuter rail. its not in a very favorable location. surrounded on two sides by water, it can really only go N-S efficiently. On the west side of the sound, there isnt much development, but on the east side of lake washington they could use something.
I think it would be hard for Seattle to do a lot of expansion of commuter rail. its not in a very favorable location. surrounded on two sides by water, it can really only go N-S efficiently. On the west side of the sound, there isnt much development, but on the east side of lake washington they could use something.
There may be a large enough jobs base in Bellevue to support light rail, separate and apart from downtown Seattle.
Running a light (or heavy) rail line from east of Lake Washington to downtown Seattle would be very difficult. The floating bridges certainly couldn't accomodate rail, and tunnelling would be dauntingly expensive.
Staten Island.
Hehehheheh! Sorry. Uh... How about some of those New England Cities like Providence or New Haven?
:-) Andrew
How about some of those New England Cities like Providence or New Haven?
If Burlington, VT can have commuter rail, I don't see why not!
Mark
Is that going to be a permanent service or just until construction on Route 7 is completed?
New Haven or Providence having a subway? Heh, that'll be the day. New Haven already has Shore Line East (only in rush hours) and Metro-North (although it's oriented towards New York) and Providence has MBTA commuter service (oriented towards Boston and only in rush hours). Now Hartford, Springfield and Albany on the other hand have no rail service other than a few Amtrak trains. Maybe some sort of diesel light rail service using Bombardier's Talent or Siemens's RegioSprinter would be useful in all five of these small cities. I personally think it would.
I'm not sure, but I think I heard once that it was popular enough that it might continue even after the highway work is finished. I rode it last year and thought it was nifty..wonderful views of the sun setting over Lake Champlain.
Mark
Wouldn't Houston, the fourth largest city in the U.S. be an obvious candidate? Oh, I forgot. It's in Texas, home of the oil industry.
Like the guy said on The Simpsons yesterday, Texas abolished the enviornment and everything that could bennefit it.
:-) Andrew
Choppy the Lumberjack would be very pround of Texas's high-polluting smoke factories and day care centers.
Little did anyone count on how well DART would work...
Mark
You bring me to a question I've been wondering about...Houston and Seattle have been mentioned so far. Seattle is flirting with light rail and Houston is building a line right now, even though its opponents are still a threat. My question is, at what point is light rail inadequate, making heavy subways necessary? Part 2 of the question is, are there any cities that have light rail or are considering it that really need heavy rail instead?
Mark
Light rail is basically a bus on rail; once ridership on certail lines (particularly the key ones) tops the 50K-100K threshold, that particular city should begin consdiering a more conventional subway, which is what's happening in LA as we speak.
Really? I thought the sentiment was against subways in LA. That's good to hear.
Mark
>>> that particular city should begin consdiering a more conventional subway, which is what's happening in LA as we speak. <<<
Which LA is that? Los Angeles has decided not to complete the full length of the originally planned subway, (the Red Line) and has absolutely no plans to convert its light rail routes to heavy rail in the foreseeable future.
Tom
"Light rail is basically a bus on rail"
I don't think many people would agree with that. A streetcar is basically a bus on rail, but most light rail systems aren't streetcars. All the modern systems and surviving old "streetcar" systems** have considerable off-street running, either on private ROW outside the downtown area (San Diego, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, etc.), a downtown subway (Philadelphia, San Francisco), or both (Saint Louis, Newark, some Boston lines). This allows light rail trains to operate noticably faster than would buses on parallel or nearby streets and therefore to be more attractive to the commuting public. Especially with park-and-ride lots, light rail usage in most cities that have it looks more like subway or commuter rail usage than bus usage. To be blunt, a lot of people who wouldn't be caught dead on a bus ride light rail.
**The only exceptions, true streetcars with all street running, are downtown circulator trolleys that some cities (Seattle, Memphis, Dallas, etc.) run, mainly for tourists and for people who work downtown to go to lunch or shopping.
And as Sf' F Market has proven, even a mostly street running line can be jammed ouall day every day if it links major destinations.
Not a direct answere to your question, but Harrisburg has been flirting with rapid transit for years now. The idea at first was for light rail, but was changed to commuter heavy rail because the ROW for Corridor One would be shared with Norfolk Southern on the West Shore and Amtrak on the East, and FRA rules prohibit LRVs on shared ROWs. I do remember reading recently on the board that some light rail systems have gotten waivers permitting daytime light rail and nighttime freight on the same tracks.
I too will echo the sentiment: "If Burlington VT can have light rail, why can't Harrisburg?"
OTOH, VT is a much "greener" state than Pennsylvania, and Central PA is full of tax-cutting Republicans to whom most public works are anethema. I will be very surprised to see it happen, but if it does, I will be on the inaugural run!
Ottawa's O-Train shares with a freight line, running light rail in the day and freight at night, but this is in Canada and therefore the line is governed by Transport Canada and not the FRA. I guess Transport Canada allows light and heavy rail to share the same line.
Texas has no state income tax (and I hope never will). Here in Texas
people love their cars (and gas today was 90.9 but last week I got it for 85.9, no kidding).
Only southern Californians love their cars more. Nobody would ride a train though some have started to ride DART in Dallas.
Houston is still paying the extra sales tax for Enron Field construction.
Houston is spread out. Downtown Houston is boring and devoid of people on nights and weekends.
Houston has a sufficient highway system.
DART has been a big success, though. Areas that once fought it are now fighting to get it.
Mark
Houston would be a good choice for a heavy rail subway - How about Milwaukee? Denver, Dallas, the wtion cities, and others are building/ or using light rail...
You've heard my rantings on the board before. I vote for Wilmington,DE :the corporate capital of the US (or at least it was at one time) where all The NY Banks have moved a large portion of their operations. DART Buses are lousy adn commuter rail is on SEPTA's whim. there's more than enough traffic congestion, corporate expansion and road construction to warrant it.
the joke of it all is that there are radio ads running down here encouraging parents of teens to not just teach them to drive, but how to ride transit....be nice if we had some for them to ride.
I don't think we'll be seeing a brand new subway opening anytime soon. The trend (unfortunately) is light rail for cities with no rail. It's cheaper and is pretty a compromise between a full-fledged subway and simple bus service. IF a system were to be built, I'd predict Denver.
I think it should be Staten Island!!!!
Light rail would be nice for SI - perhaps 1 or 2 lines to begin with, expanding to about half a dozen over time. The SIRT should be converted to light rail (the only exception being if a tunnel to Brooklyn or Manhattan were constructed, prividing direct heavy rail access to the rest of the city).
There just isn't enough demand for heavy rail there yet. Even light rail is pushing it (except for travel to and from the St. George ferry terminal), since most SIers just use their car (since the SIR is inconvenient for most people, local buses are too slow, and all services are far too inconvenient to be reliable.)
Of course, if SI were to get light rail, there should be similar systems in the outer parts of other boros (particularly Queens), to connect to major facilities and to mainline subway stations into Manhattan.
But not in the near future, by any means, due to the budget difficulties.
Amazin stuff!!!!!!! I like the ideas but money is what money does. The system is one hundred years old (I won't fight small differences) as it was designed in Edisons 'tyme.' Not much has really changed...lighting and control systems were converted to AC, rotary converters were eliminated, radio comm was introduced...but the system is a museum to 19th century tech. SOAC and CBTC are supposed to make massive improvements...problem remains that the trackage/roadbed is HISTORY and ripping apart the rubber components of my R142s and wasting out the braking systems. New York outgrew light rail concepts before my birth...introduction to JFK of what I believe is 'something in the middle'......politics. The only thing to make it all work is complete replacement of the subway infrastructure. Salaamallahs pics of LA ala 'Beastmaster 2' catch my attention. CI Peter
I agree - the subway infrastructure will absolutely need to be completely replaced, within (tops) 50 years.
The question is, will it ever happen? With all the NIMBY and the budget fears, inflated bottom lines and work timetables, I don't think it will. The existing systems will simply crumble to the ground one by one, and will lie in ruins like the Miller Highway.
As much as I hate to say it, it appears that our best days are behind us. NYC will have no "next" subway system, and the existing one will be left to crumble one piece at a time until it's a mere shadow of what it used to be.
You paint a very bleak picture although you could be right. To have the New York Subway System collapse would be intolerable. It is the greatest subway in the world and should be made a showplace for what is great about New York. It is the one thing that brings all of us together on this site. Certainly with an improved economy a start can be made to start the improvement and refurbishment of the system. Let's face it, if we had to depend on the car and bus for New York there would be one gigantic parking lot. It can be done and the city fathers must find the means to do it.
I certainly hope that I'm dead wrong.
But realistically, suppose that a large section of a particular subway tunnel were to collapse tomorrow overnight. Say, one of the river tunnels, which could cost in excess of a billion dollars to replace today.
How long would that line be out of service? Would it even be brought back, ever?
Pittsburgh. Although they have a 30 mile light rail system, it's more like a commuter railroad connecting the suburbs to downtown. The majority of the city relies on buses, and the light rail does not service major attractions like sports arenas and shopping districts.
Not to mention the airport - an hour away by car. You can take a regular city bus there too, but who needs THAT? A train would be the most civilized way to get there.
Ironically, Pittsburgh has an excellent and modern, albeit short transit line, within the airport itself.
How about Eastern Queens? My friend's commute to and from school is more then an hour and a half by bus and the F train each way. For the most part, Northern Queens east of Astoria is woefully underserved.
Dan
Ain't that the truth!
LaGuardia airport is in the vicinity. They could use a subway stop.
First of all you post is excellent & does ask a very good question !! I will comment on the failure of the los angeles rail system etc..
Los Angeles did not need a all underground heavy rail system ( red line subway to nowhere ) ...however
running underground downtown only etc.. ( like alanta marta ) & then coming out above ground & then running at & or above grade & along the freeways would have been a better idea.
This concept is being fought on the pasadena gold line by a group here called BLAG
" no blue line at grade "
So I'm stuck in the city because GM picked up my car and it hasn't been checked out YET. I'm watching 'Beastmaster 2' and the bostyk witch tells Lord Dunno he needs LA. And I think of your always pretty pics. Then I'm back to subbing on the Redbirds. LA needs infrastructure transit...it will come after the collapse (if the fault doesn't slide and surfins up in Las Vegas.) CI Peter
Thankz for your support of my pics ! L.A. is headin' for hard times with this bus & car culture ...mostly cars ....
some folk(s) here should never drive a electric go cart yet alone a car !! wooooooo......
No i do not think U need L.A. unless you can afford some of the highest housing & rents in the country...San Francisco is the highest in the nation . Maybe one day i will retire in san diego ....lol !!
You said ....GM " checked out your car " ?? ...just curious not trying to B nosey .....&.................,
If we finally do get the big QUAKE .......oh well it can happen anywhere anytime anyplace anytime ......remember to just " duck & cover " ....lol!!
Las Vegas needs a rail transit system BIG TIME ...A.S.A.P. !! ( they also need a storm drain system when it rains ) ...
Cant wait to see my redbirds this summer ............oh yea !!! .........lol !!
Re: The next subway system light rail..Las Vegas Nevada !! & no 2 ways bout' it ....& they need this here BIG TIME
!! also.. phoenix arizona .... new mexico cites utah st. george another city in nevada near sacramento ca in the north..
the name escapes me ....oh well .....lol !!
Unfortunately, Las Vegas is growning faster than they can build systems. Just look at what they could have done if they had planned a new rail system just 10 years ago, as these new developments are growning. It was open desert, no NIMBYS. Now it may be more of a problem already.
there is a main drag there that it could work......?.......i.. suppose ........
& your point about how da' las vegas, joint' is a growin' is sooo true !! & check dis' out no storm drain system ......DUMB !!
imagine NY - NY..( las vegas ) there.........& no subway ..??....!!
lol....??
My understanding is that a light rail system parallel to the Strip is in the planning stages with funding maybe even committed.
right cuz they run a 24 / 7 cat bus there now !!
I believe it is a monorail that's planned, not a traditional light rail system.
would that connect to any of the private casino lines already installed?
No. IIRC, it will run down the median of the Strip from the airport. There will have to be some sort of platform/ramp to get from the stations to the hotels; I can't see dumping passengers down to the street and having them cross against traffic with suitcases.
this is a map of it called the centerline ...
from the octa info ...
Houston and Denver seem to be getting the most votes here. Would heavy rail be better in these cities than the current light rail projects?
And a further question, should the light rail systems prove inadequate, could the ROWs be used for heavy rail? I presume this would involve some very costly tunneling through the downtown areas of the two cities where the trains run on streets. But it could be easier to adapt the portions of the systems that have their own ROWs.
Thoughts?
Mark
How about the 2nd Avenue subway? That would undoubtedly have greater ridership, instantly, than any of the systems proposed in this thread.
Would you like to be AMTRAK's new Vice President?
How many trains were lined up behind the derailment of AMTRAK #174 10 days ago?
Could the "North-South RailLink" really happen?
How many people are riding The Downeaster from Portland to Boston?
That and a lot more in this week's edition of the Destination:Freedom Newsletter from the National Corridor Initiatives.
Would you like to be AMTRAK's new Vice President?
Nah, I'm not a good corporate liquidator. Now, on the other hand, I wouldn't mind being in charge of whomever gets the NEC...
This movie aired yesterday on AMC, and I caught the subway scenes I'd heard about. The mezzanine appears to be the one at Hoyt-Schermerhorn while the station, both where Barbra Streisand gets on and off the train is Court St. (disguised as Clark St. when she gets off). They used a train of R-7/9s signed up as an LL, and considering the graffiti epidemic was going full force when the movie was made, the train is clean. The only visible car number is that of R-7 1531. The usual R-1/9 sounds are present as the train leaves the station. I thought it was interesting to see that police dog on the car roof once the train had stopped at "Clark St."
These are in service as of January 5th.
6731-35 is currently coupled to 6786-90, while 6736-40 is coupled to 6781-85.
I suspect that 6791-6800 may be on the road. I will have to investigate...
-Stef
Here is an Updated list of R142A's not listed
IN Service on the Pelham Line
- 7496-7500
- 7501-7510
- 7526-7530
NOT in service at Unionport
7561-7570
Saw 6731-35 at Grand Central in service as a (5) to Dyre Avenue.
That was a No.2 but programed as a No.5 to aviod making Manual announcements
How do you program a #2 to become a #5??? CI Peter
Its very easy!
All you have to do is choose No.5 as your route and put you call letters in then all No.5 destinations show up because the computer thinks its a No.5 Train. Also you would have to choose the
Flatbush <5> to Neried Ave destination and Activate the Local Stops from Jackson Ave to E Tremont. It will still stay No.5 Express in the Bronx but say Jackson Ave is the next stop.
I haven't tried it out...easy to do if you have the key. The big complaint from SubTalkers is about route changes that aren't corrected...we don't get the bad news in the pit. CI Peter
What they should do is program the No.2 route to go on the Lex Line
Flatbush (2)Via Lex to E 241
E 241 (2) Via Lex to Flatbush
Frankly, I didn't think the program changes via the TOD were so easy. The LED map display, of course, cannot be changed without the cutout. The system is not flexible...there will be many updates far beyond the warranty expiration. CI Peter
The strip maps as deployed are a mistake. The strip maps shouold be LEd or lcd to allow easy changes. The purpose of using led side signs instead of roll signs were to increase the flexibility of moving a change set from one line to another
The additial cost of led strip maps vs the cost of labor to swap the cutouts would even out over time
New CIs will happily take the work. CI Peter
So they can program the 2 to run via Lex, yet they can't get it to announce itself as a local along 7th Avenue (even during late nights before 9/11) or say "V" and "W". Who came up with those announcements?
Now you know my problem!!!!!!! Inflexibility!!!!!!!!! CI Peter
No they can't program a No.2 for Lex what I was trying to say it should be done. The strip map wouldn't work but it would make currect announcements.
I was looking hard at the remaining mainline redbirds last Thursday, and I couldn't fine 1 single R26 pair left on the #5 line. I saw 1 pair of R28's at the East 180 St. yard, otherwise the #5 is almost completely R33. Redbirds are now a rare site on the #2 and are nearly impossible to find on the #6.
Have all the R26's been "reefed"?
There are still a few around. 7774-75 and 7906-07 were at the East on the track nearest to the fence, when I saw them this afternoon. Don't let it fool you though, the numbers of R-26s on the road is getting smaller.
-Stef
Going, going and soon to all be 'Goners.' #5 crews are learning everything they can on short notice...I'm tired of being a sub on undercar...but glad that my experience gives me the opportunity to answer their questions and make them comfortable in the change...and their foreman knows me and can call upon me anytime. A really, really good feeling that i have learned and can share with my crews and SubTalkers. CI Peter
Chris: Firday,January 4,2001 I saw a pair of R-26's on a southbound #5 at Grand Central in the pm rush. I believe that the numbers were 7804-7805.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Bois...keep on loggin dem numbahs. Take pics too. Ain't gonna be around much longer except in the Flushing museum trackage. Solid state is the way to go....no more DC motor brushes, 'incandescent' lighbulbs, group boxes, roll signs or any other dead weight boat anchor stuff to make me dirty anymore. Twenty first century is here...if you must shed a tear, bend down and reflect upon the trackage. OnTheJuice, CI Peter
7773 has been stripped of its end doors with 7774. 8804/5 are being stripped today with 7786/7 and 8702/3. I believe the last trains stored at 180 are now at Concourse, and another shipment of scrap cars came in over the weekend. 8660/1 may already be stripped as it was in the yard last week. The crane hasn't returned yet for pickups, but there are enough R26/8/9 cars for at least 2 full barges. Bring on the thirty sixes.
I hope IRM gets on the ball and gets their 26s before they're all gone....
-Stef
Is it still true that no Redbirds will be sold to anyone or any museum because of asbestos?
I doubt that. They can be "abated" before selling. Or the buyer can do that at his own expense.
My understanding of the "issue" is that the TA is *so* fearful of potential litigation that they wouldn't even consider "abatement" or "release forms" by ANY interested party. They just don't want those cars TOUCHED ... that's the impression I've gotten ...
Exactly.
-Stef
Bummer.
That sucks big monkey &^%$#@!!!!!!
The Museums can have a Redbird if they were willing to pay for asbestos abatement. Who's willing to do that?
-Stef
Too expensive for most museums, unless some filthy rich benefactor decides to pick up the tab. Looking at my checkbook, I can say that's not me...lol
I saw 7770/7771 in service on the 5 today.
Welcome back,
I just wanted to repost the poll so everyone can have a chance to vote. As a reminder, polling will close at 1:00 PM on Thursday, January 10th, and I will repost a message daily. Click here to see the details within the original post. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
I know this is a bit off topic but you guys are my link to NYC and are great about answering questions so here goes:
Does anyone recall seeing any online articles or information about the WTC Marriott during/after 9/11. The Marriott and Cortlandt street stations were my old stomping grounds while there last new years and July and I'd like any info on the hotel that is available.
All I have seen is what was on the Marriott site that 2 employees were unaccounted for but nothing about what was/is left of the building.
Thanks in advance and God Bless America!
The building is gone.
I was just curioous as to what parts of the hotel went when and if they evacuated prior to the first WTC collapse. Seems like I saw something about pepole being in the hotel when the first building came down.
Also, from the video of the top of the WTC hitting the street it looked like the Marriott was crushed but it may have been another building.
Was also wondering if the 2 employees were found alive.
Thanks
The several members of Ladder 118 that were recently found were, as I understand, gathered in what was the lobby of the Marriott.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The corner lobby of 1 WTC was the fire command center during the events. The entrance for the Marriot was right next door.
I stayed in the WTC Marriott two days before 9/11 (for the Hoboken Festival, "V" train test, 207 yard tour, etc.). As a frequent sleeper there, I got a form letter from Marriott management saying that the WTC Marriott was gone, but everyone got out OK. They also said that the Marriott Financial Center, two blocks south was still standing, but questionable structually -- and that no decision had been made on its fate.
Funny, I got charged for my last stay there (the charging mechanism to AMEX is good), but I never got my Marriott Rewards Points (the crediting mechanism isn't so good!).
I've walked past the other Marriott. It's no longer in the fenced off area. I can't imagine any structural damage. That may be a code word for asbestos-laden dust and a weak economy that doesn't justify the clean-up.
I've walked past the other Marriott. It's no longer in the fenced off area. I can't imagine any structural damage. That may be a code word for asbestos-laden dust and a weak economy that doesn't justify the clean-up.
The Marriott Financial Center should be reopening either today or tomorrow.
I just checked the Marriott Web site, and it offers a room at the Marriott WFC for tonight for $189. Congratulations Marriott for reopening!
When the south tower collapsed, the Marriott Hotel was basically destroyed. There were people inside, I believe all were rescue workers.
According to the NY Times website, "Large girders added to the hotel's structure after the bombing of the trade towers in 1993 saved the lives of a number of people in the lobby."
There are some extensive interactive graphics about the disaster if you click here.
(You may need to register for to use this section of the NYTimes website, but it is worth it, and they don't SPAM you if you don't want it.
Another interesting link I found with a web search is HERE. I can't verify whether or not this link is factual, and I don't know the owner...
Hope this helps.
Sorry, but when WTC 2 collapsed, I saw on video chunks of that building falling onto the hotel starting to crush parts of it. WTC 1 which was a bit of a closer distance to the hotel finished it off. I STILL cant believe that the whole complex is gone--even the wide plaza with the fountain and that nice structure in the middle of the fountain. So many of us remember the entire WTC complex as it was. But what utter devastation is there--I feel SO ODD posting my disbelief over 3 months after what had happened..................
I agree completely. Sometimes it just seems like a bad dream, even now 3 months later. It is so unbelievable. I always said nothing phases New Yorkers, meaning that almost anything can happen in NY and most people won't even be suprised. This horrible event proved me wrong.
There's the huge emptiness where WTC was. It seems all the buildings that were partially standing have been demolished. There just such an expanse of space there now. I was down there today, on Broadway and the wind was whipping through because there's no buildings there. The smell is finally gone it seems, I did not smell anything on Broadway or in the vicinity subways.
The ramps were there, but to tell you the truth I've seen enough, it's just a sad reminder of what happened almost 4 months ago.
You are totally correct. I was there about 2 weeks ago and it is so different than the last time I was there (end of September). I'm amazed at the progress they have made.
-I feel SO ODD posting my disbelief over 3 months after what had happened..................
You shouldn't feel strange about still having disbelief over the attack. I always felt a great sense of security and pride when I would look up at the skyline and see those magnificent buildings standing there overlooking the gateway to New York. It is hard to believe that something that gave such pride can be gone in such a devastating way.
I still get angry when I find another place in NYC that I used to be able to look up and see those towers in the distance. It will take a long time for people to find a way to "get over" the trauma of watching 3000 people perish, and have our skyline taken from us. Restoring some sense of normalcy by redeveloping the area - even if it is nothing but grass - will help bring some sort of closure to the attacks. I hope...
The really sick part is sometimes I can't tell if a photo is NY or not. There was a commercial on a few hours ago that showed a boat in the harbor. I didn't immediately recognize it as New York!!!!!!! Sick! Now that some new commercials and Hollywood stuff is starting to come out, more and more of the new New York is being shown. From some angles of the skyline, when shown fast, it is not immediately noticable to realize it's NY. No one has had that problem since before the WTC was there, and especially now that alot of cities have 50 and 60 story buildings.
In my humble opinion, the Multi's were the fastest - and perhaps the best - rapid transit (and they were RAPID!) cars ever built - anywhere. My high school, St. Agnes, was located at 44th and 3rd Avenue in Manhattan; my home in Cambria Heights in eastern Queens, necessitating a daily bus and subway ride. Remembering the Multi's from the childhood days, almost daily I'd go out of my way to ride them on the Eastern Division lines. When I did this, my Mom would continually chastise me for coming home late. But, in all honesty, the chastising was worth it - and continued until I graduated. They were hot rods - period. Inside the cars, there were signs "suggesting" riders hold on at all times. As I remember, there was no railfan window - the cab was full width - just a slit you could see through a bit. But their speedy performance was beyond description. Every trip was an exhilarating experience, much like riding the Cyclone in Coney Island, and I’ve always felt privileged to have experienced the Multis time and time again. And they had an operating sound unlike any other electric car, which was difficult to describe, however. I was fortunate enough to be aboard the farewell fantrip in 1961, but very saddened after learning all of these cars had been scrapped. In my next life, top on my wish list will be a Multi ride southbound down Central Park West......
Of course the Multi's were "hot rods", you had a MU with a lighter weight than the steel dinosaurs, and the signs telling people to hold on were there because those great cars could move and stop on a dime. The Multi's were even light enough to travel on un-rebuilt portions of the Fulton El.
One of the biggest tradegies of the subway were the scrapping of the Multi, Bluebird, and the Green Hornet. It is a shame that not one example of these wonderful cars were saved.
Yeah, they could stop on the dime....just bring along a few
rolls and keep on throwing them in front of the train until
it stopped :)
Now now Unca Jeff ... the Multis COULD stop on a dime. Unfortunately the dime was in the dispatcher's pocket in the wayside tower.
Even more of a tragedy was the city's canceling the Bluebird order. They had to take the first five (of 50) production units which were already being built, but the rest of the order was canceled in 1940 when the city took over the BMT. Had the order not been canceled, they may well have found a reason to modify the West end of the Myrtle Ave. El to accommodate 10' wide cars in the 1950s. And, perhaps, rush hour West End and Culver trains could have operated all the way to Coney Island.
The six Bluebirds (prototype plus 5 production units) did run on the 14th St - Canarsie line until the early 50s and were scrapped before 1960. Does anyone know if they ever ran revenue service on any other lines? Did they ever run on the 14th St - Fulton St rush hour express?
-- Ed Sachs
In "Subway Cars of the BMT" there is a picture of it running on the Brighton local, if I remember right, it was a Brighton-Franklin (#7).
eBay Item 1057189372, closes in less than a day, about 330pm New York time......
And the Bank of America closes at 3:00 pm NYT every day....your point being....?????
Does anyone have a phone number for either of the open transit museum stores [or both]?
thanks
THe Store in GCT: 212 - 878 - 0106.
you be a good man. thanks
As many of us know, there is an excellent website out there on NYC and the odd and forgotten things that abound within it. For those of you who haven't heard of Forgotten NY, i strongly suggest you check it out. Its an excellent site, and the webmaster (Kevin Walsh) is a frequent poster. Check out this week's update on the Croton!
WWW.FORGOTTEN-NY.COM
There is also another excellent web site: www.oldnyc.com
I am also a HUGE "Forgotten Fan." You can check out one of my photos about 1/4 of the way down this page on Forgotten-ny.com. Kevin deserves boucou kudos for this great site. :O)
Oops. I navigated to a bogus Home page in Forgotten-ny.com. Here is the right link for Kevin's index page.
Earlier today, on airliners.net, I posted a link to Kevin's piece on Flushing Airport. That's probably generate quite a few hits, as airliners.net has 10,000 registered users. Oh. Make that 9,999. Charles Bishop ("Tropical Flyer") had been a user.
Are there any retired signalmen out there who worked for the electrical dept (M.O.W.) in the 60 thru the 90s. I would like to hear from them.
Might want to ask over on Harry's place ... I *know* there's some old timey tower and signal guys that drop in over there pretty often ...
Are they really running until 9:30 at night? Is this for drop outs or do they run it as an evening service? My guess is the latter because the reason it terminates at 9th Avenue middays is because of the ongoing signal work on the West End, which is why they don't run it with the W during those times.
I wonder why they don't run the M or W express when the M runs with the W. When is the last time they ran express service on the West End. It shouldn't bottleneck the line because the M ends at Bay Parkway anyway. Does the M terminate on the center track at Bay Pkwy.
Probably not enough cars and the people at the local stations would complain. Run the M express and no one will use it.
Few use it as is. The M remains relatively empty in the AM until it reaches Pacific St.
GP: The M relays on the center track south of Bay Parkway. There are no switches north of the station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks
The last 8 M arrivals at Bay Parkway lay up from there. The last one is scheduled to leave Metropolitan Avenue at 9:04 PM and arrive at Bay Parkway at 10:14 PM. The last train to return from Bay Parkway to Metropolitan Avenue is scheduled to arrive at Bay Parkway at 8:36-1/2 PM and leave there at 8:51 PM.
David
So after the 8:51 passes Myrtle-Broadway, they start the shuttle, or are ther some 9th Ave trains?
That is correct. The M goes right from its full length to a shuttle -- no short-turns in-between.
David
The first shuttle from Metropolitan leaves at 9:16 PM. That train is the leader of the 8:51 from Bay Pkwy when it returns from Bway/Myrtle. The second shuttle from Met returns from Bway Myrtle just 2 minutes after the 8:51 passes Bway/Myrtle. So if the 8:51 is more than 2 minutes late, the second shuttle is in the lead. So there is a slight overlap coming north with 4 trains in fairly rapid succession, considering it is the M line!
FYI, the last through "M"'s pass at Fulton St. at 2133.
Close. Last northbound (to Metropolitan) is supposed to leave Chambers Street (the stop north of Fulton) at 9:33 PM; the last southbound (to Bay Parkway) is supposed to leave Chambers Street at 9:32-1/2 PM. Assuming they're on-time to the second (sure!), passengers on the northbound train coming into Chambers Street should see the southbound train leave.
David
Do you have the PUT-IN times at Bay Pkwy in the AM and PM Rush?
Yes, I do. Thanks for asking :-)
Put-ins are scheduled to leave Bay Parkway (weekdays only) at:
6:29-1/2, 6:44-1/2, 6:54-1/2, 7:04-1/2, 7:14-1/2, 7:23-1/2, 7:32, 7:46 AM; 3:17-1/2, 3:30, 3:39-1/2, 3:48-1/2 PM
David
Thanks. Do you have the ones at Met. Sta.?
Yes, I do.
David
M put-ins are scheduled to leave Metropolitan Avenue (weekdays) at:
5:46 AM (to Broad Street)
6:00 (shuttle)
6:13 (shuttle)
6:19 (to Bay Parkway, continuing with...)
6:41
7:00-1/2
7:29
7:47-1/2
5:53-1/2 PM
David
The signal work is mostly complete, so that is not the reason. All target-type signals are in place, and most of the trip boxes are in place as well. The new signals and the 1917 vintage signals are working in tandem.
Some 1917 era signals, deactivated for many months, still remain wayside. They are taped and/or boarded up, with large red X's spray painted on them.
hey i would like to know the differences between R26/28/29/33/36 Mainline cars i dont see much physical difference between the two. Tell the differences if you can .
The doors and windows on the R-36's are different from the R-26, 28 and 29.
He's talking about MAINLINE R-36s (as opposed to World's Fair R-36s), and no, there aren't very many cosmetic differences among IRT car classes from R-26 to R-36 excluding the World's Fair cars.
David
Look @ and/or memorize the numbers or memorize what runs where.
Up until the GOH, the differences in the R-26/28s, with their salmon pink color scheme for the seats and (until the MTA corporate colors were added) their olive drab exteriors made them easy to distinguish from the R-29/33/36 main line trains, which were painted bright red and had the gray plastic seats (I believe the floor tile pattern was also different on the R-26/28s compared with the R-29/33/36s).
As far as the R-29/33/36 differences, The exterior number plates on the R-29s were placed higher up on the car body than on the R-33/36s. And as far as telling the R-33 and R-36 MLs apart, good luck...
One difference that sets apart the R36ML from the R26/28/29/33 is the interior lighting. The R36ML has three rows of lighting in the ceiling, one long row on each side. The third row consist of lights on either side of the air conditioning vents. Basically, the R36ML retained their original "post 1979-80 air conditioning" ceiling configuration during the GOH of the '80s..
The R26-33 only only has one long row of lights on either side of the ceiling, no lights in the middle.
Also, the difference between the R26/28/29s and the R33s is in the ceiling. On the majority of the R33s, during the GOH of the '80s and '90s, when they removed the light fixtures that were in the middle of the ceiling, they were replace with a thin, flat metal slab with exposed screws. On the R26/28/29s, the lights were replace by also by a metal piece, but this piece is folded over on the sides with no exposed screws.
Also, the R26/28/29s ceilings were painted beige as opposed to the R33s ceilings being painted white.
After 10 days of traveling in the southeast and midwest, I have returned! -Nick
At least one additional pair has been transferred to the 4 from the 2/5. Let's welcome 8856-57, on the road today, Brooklyn-Bound.
-Stef
And welcome the FISHIES to their new home really soon. CI Peter
Stef:
Likely a replacement for 9236/9237. The 4 needs all the cars it can get.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
what happened
Yes, there's been some attrition on the #4 over the years (1435-6-7-9-40; 1366-7-8-9-70 etc.)
Are they planning to put the 6300s that are at Concourse on the #4? And what about the 6400 series? Whatever happened to them?
wayne
Those 6300 and 6400 series cars are intended for the 2 Line. Unfortunately, they're sidelined with mechanical problems and needed to find a place to be stored.
Speaking of R-62s, A SubTalker (who I think is a reliable source) tipped me off on a bit of news. 1369 resides alone at Concourse Yard. Her mates, if I hear correctly, are scheduled to be repaired and returned to service at a future time. What will replace 1369? 1436! 10 Years in the making.....
-Stef
Another Odd Couple in the making?:-)
Hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds.
Unless the 7 still has them this fall, I may never get to say that again.
I wouldn't consign all the Redbirds to the deep just yet, Steve. Methinks they'll still be out in some numbers come late October, and not just on the #7.
wayne
I hope so.
I re-scanned my 33rd St area layout showing the sealed up passage. I even printed over some of the handwriting, but that still is hard to read when shrunk down to 470 X 650. If you view the page (full size), it is quite clear. (New scanner I got for Christmas along with new system. Now, I begin the project of OCR scanning the R-46 codes (40 pages). But I will need permission before I can post those).
The yellow lines denote where barriers can be put up to bring the passage into fare control, to make it easier to keep the homeless out. But now, since they have built a moving walkway at Court Sq., this is what I will be urging them to place here to keep the homeless from sleeping and hanging around there. Still, the problem will be which agency (NYCT, Mall owner, Penn Sta. etc) would take responsibility for it and pay to install it. (I read the Court Sq. one cost 5 million). Perhaps motivate Penn station and its railroads and retailers, since they would gretly benefit from an indoor connection from the 6th Av, Bway and Path lines.
Nice map. Interestingly, the MTA's neighborhood map shows the two stairways on the north and south sides of 33rd St. as open but they are most definitely closed.
What are the MTA neighborhood maps? I haven't ever seen any of these.
David
The big maps on the walls of the stations that show the surrounding neighborhood. They are normally near the token booth or Metrocard machine.
And they're also available as PDF files on the MTA web site.
Would you mind saying where?
I've looked under Maps, and under Neighborhoods on the MTA site and can't find them.
I can't find them now either. Oh well.
They were there. I guess they took them off. Probably terrorist related.
Was this the link you're looking for?
"MTA - Disability Access"
That's them! Definitely hidden on the MTA site.
I remember seeing this passage, but it was barred off.
The term I heard it referred to was 'Gimbel's Alley'. Anyone else remember hearing this?
I go back far enough to remember Gimbel's basement, and the fact it actually had *two* basements. The lower one had bed-linen and the such, as I recall. Korvette's was already closed by the time I go to New York, but do remember them stripping off all the marble to reveal the old facade, before turning it into that tacky tacky mall (something only Imelda Marcos would think of as nice, which might be why she invested it it).
Would be great for this to be reopened. One minor disadvantage, and not at all a reason to not do it: right now it's possible to exit from Penn Station onto the east side of 7th Ave, without paying a subway fare, using the route under 7th Ave that would now come under fare control. Very useful since 7th Ave is a pain to cross.
It really does not add too much to the system
It really does not add too much to the system
Are you KIDDING? A *ton* of people take the Sixth Avenue IND, Broadway BMT and PATH to get to Penn Station, me included. Having to walk a block above ground in the crowds, the traffic and the lousy weather is really irksome when I know there's an intact underground passageway.
Bring back the Penn Station passageway ....
BRING BACK the Penn Station passageway!
BRING BACK THE PENN STATION PASSAGEWAY ! ! !
I agree. That passageway was heavily travelled when it was open in the past, especially during inclement weather. Too bad it had to be closed because of a few bad apples.
My first view of the homeless was in that passage 30 years ago when there was no major homeless problem, that will be a hotel now.
The only time I saw a flasher was in that tunnel.
I loved that tunnel and the 40th-35th st tunnel on the other side BUT
Some street awnings might be a cheaper and safer solution.
BESIDES what does it add to fare control?
PATH to Penn Sation? They deserve to get wet.
The call was for bringing it to fare control.
PATH to Penn Sation? They deserve to get wet.
Well, OK, maybe not PATH.
The call was for bringing it to fare control.
Which I'd be fine with ... no reason for anyone FROM Penn to use it unless they're heading to the subway. It's a transit amenity, not a public amenity.
Putting it in fare control would be a good thing. It would add a transfer between the 6th Avenue and 7th Avenue lines -- the ones at 14 and 59 are local-only on one line or the other (and the transfer at 14 is simply painful).
The one at 33rd can't be much easier than the one at 14th. Admittedly, at 14th you have to go downstairs from the F to the L and then back up a flight, but other than that the distance at 33rd will be identical.
That's my major beef with the passageway at 14: up, down, up, long walk, down. Also, a new passageway could be wider, with room for a moving walkway in each direction. And, as I mentioned, 14 is a local stop on 6th Avenue; 34 is express on both 6th and 7th.
You have one extra preposition in there. From F to 1/2/3 at 14th is actually down, up, long walk, down.
At 33rd it would be up, long walk, up, or one less flight of stairs than at 14th.
I thought the passageway was under 32nd St. I think I remember (this was 20+ years ago, so I must be mistaken) exiting this passageway and being on 32nd St. just east of 7th Ave.
Bob you are correct----its DEFINITELY 32ND STREET.
Many years ago the accounting firm I worked for had a client in 1250 Broadway which was on the east side of Broadway and ran the block from 31st to 32nd.
The firm had the client from at least 1975 when I started there until about 1980-81. I used to take the LIRR from Suffolk County to Penn. Usually I walked above ground because of the skells that inhabited the tunnel. It was also interesting the the paydays in the factorys were either Tuesday or Fridays because that was the only days the THREE CARD MONTY guys worked 32nd Street.
I only used the tunnel during inclement or very cold weather since the element was lousy down there and also I remember that there were leaks in either the walls and/or the ceiling because there were always puddles (of water) the entire length on rainy days.
Can't be 32nd St. The entrance to the PATH in Greeley Square (cor. of 32nd & 6th) on the north side of 32nd. If you go down there, and then along the corridor toward 34th St. you pass the entrance to the passageway on the left which would be about the south side of 33rd St.
But I do remember exiting onto 32nd St about where the Odd Lot (or is it Job Lot or ???) store is now.
Maybe ODD-JOB?
Although I haven't been back to that area in a long time, I remember exiting 1250 Broadway, crossing 32nd and entering the system from the N/E corner of 32 & Bway. When you went down the first set of steps there was a cut-rate barbershop there. You then made a turn and went down another set of steps to the mezzanine. Although I walked a short distance to the passageway I don't recall it being one block long. Also when exiting into Penn Station I think it was to the right or left of the main staircase/escalator under the MSG canopy at 32nd & 7th.
there were IIRC TWO different passageways.
One which was next to the basement of Gimbels. The passage was north of the Gimbels and my first reccolection of a 'bag lady' was an old woman who camped in a Gimbels doorway. The passage went to the IRT station IIRC.
I also remember a passgeway which started in the basement of the building on the north side of 32 near where 'Minifilm' was. You entered the building and went down the stairs to the passage which took you to Sixth.
I also remember a passgeway which started in the basement of the building on the north side of 32 near where 'Minifilm' was. You entered the building and went down the stairs to the passage which took you to Sixth.
That's probably the one I'm thinking of.
question please ...just for the info etc.. Is this the station 'U'..'R' talkin' bout' here ?? ...lol !!
LOL !!
Nice picture!
thankz... it was just an experement ..1999...
is this the 33rd st station everyone is talkin' bout' here ??
lol !!
Nope. 34St Herald Square on the BDFVQWNR linking to 34th Penn Station 1/9.
Where the heck is that photo from? Is it even in NYC?
33rd Street PATH station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks. One of these days I need to take a PATH trip. This is the second time I've been clueless about some PATH information on a thread. I must lose my PATH virginity. Does anyone know if this is an enjoyable process, or should I just read a book about it? :-)
It's a cute little railroad. Clean, orderly, but crowded during rush hours. I highly advise it as a railfan trip. Be careful about taking pictures though, they're freaky.
You can read up on it HERE.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Andee. I'll have to do a trip.
JR
> Be careful about taking pictures though,they're freaky.
They really are these days...
I think it was in November. A friend of mine and I were going to railfan on the Newark Subway to see the new cars. On the way going we were shooting PATH on our miniDV camcorder and were told by the T/O to stop the camcorder. It's almost like France or Spain in the 70s.
> Be careful about taking pictures though,they're freaky.
They really are these days...
Well, the PA took a biiiiiiiig hit four months ago. Understandable that they're jittery. And may be for a while ....
A permit is required for photography on PATH and that's clearly listed in the rules posted at the stations. (Well, if you can find them. They were pretty easy to find at WTC, but I couldn't tell you exactly where to look at the other stations.)
I didn't know that. I have a few nice shots of PATH from around 1994 at the WTC station. They were the only ones I ever took there. I didn't realize at the time how happy I would be one day that I took them.
Correction: if this is the PATH, then it is part of the station in the diagram.
Yes, This is the PATH station at the bottom of the image. The mall and the passage are to the immediate north (up) and then left.
It has always puzzled me. What was the original intent of Lower 42st on the A. Was it there since the beginning? The tiles look more like the Liberty to Euclid tiles in Brooklyn, so it looks like it was completed later than the 8th Ave line. Aqueduct couldn't have been the real intent, because when 8th Ave was built the LIRR still ran the Rockaway line. Why was it built and when was it used.
Well, for starters, you can read up on the station here. Then, for more information, go here. Amazing what you can find if you look in the Subway FAQ on this site, isn't it? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If Joe Brennan doesn't know, then I don't know who does. I don't buy that story about Hylan blocking the IRT.
The most logical explanation to me is that it was constructed to allow crowded E trains from Queens to run to 42nd St without having to wait to merge with the CC line. I guess they figured 42nd St. to be the most important stop on the 8th Ave IND.
Hylan was very much anti-BRT/BMT. That much should be well known to all of us.
Hylan was very much anti-BRT/BMT. That much should be well known to all of us.
Yes, but the 7 train was IRT ...
I think he was anti-IRT also.
Hylan was anti-private-interest mass transit. He probably didn't like the IRT because it had worked with the BRT/BMT on the Tribouough and Dual Projects with NYC. And
Then Mayor Hylan supposely ordered the lower level built at 42 St/8 Ave to prevent the IRT Queensboro line from extending their line to 11 Ave and/or the Hudson River.
As far as I know, the only time the lower level was used for customer service was for Aqueduct specials.
Then Mayor Hylan supposely ordered the lower level built at 42 St/8 Ave to prevent the IRT Queensboro line from extending their line to 11 Ave and/or the Hudson River.
Another urban legend, in this case one we've already debunked on this board. Todd Glickman has measured platform heights using a special barometric watch (or some such) that he has and determined that there would be no interference - the IRT (7) line would still pass beneath the IND platform.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's correct, Anon_e. (By the way, it's a CASIO dual-sensor, with thermometer and altimeter/pressure sensor... just what every meteorologist needs!)
Interested readers can look at the line-by-line sections of the site to see the relative depths of the platforms.
Todd & Anon_e: And THIS kinda stuff, before 8 am even, is why I keep coming back to SubTalk! Cool work.
I'm actually relieved to learn that if they extend the 7 westward that it will NOT destroy the lower level of 42nd Street. I tend to believe strongly in keeping these little artifacts. You never know when you're gonna need 'em one day ....
Even if they only use it to filmn movies, etc. Things like these are what make the subway interesting.
The track to this platform has been severed permanently. It will never be used for any other purpose again.
That's too bad. I guess it's good they filmed "Ghost" when they did!
Severed How? The tracks are still there. New stairways can be built.
I think the track connections have been severed. I don't thinks can access the platform anymore. Can anyone verify this?
Last I heard (on this board) the track was embargoed but not severed. The switches are spiked but are still in place (at least one of them is).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Last I heard (on this board) the track was embargoed but not severed. The switches are spiked but are still in place (at least one of them is).
The track is indeed still in place, but officially out of service and switches are clamped accordingly. I dont' know if there's still third-rail power down there or if the signals are still lit. I somehow doubt I'll ever know the answer to that one, either.
Of course, should they ever dicide to re-activate D3 I don't think it would be too much trouble. Considering what they're about to do on the IRT in lower Manhattan within a few months, renewing a few thousand feet of mostly straight track and two switches is trivial. Staircases a little less so, but nothing too difficult.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
I agree with Peter. The tracks and switches are still in place, just not Revenue ready.
Cosmetic work is necessary if the LL platform were to be re-actvated.
The switches are still in place, though made in-operable.
For the sake of fantasy, a diamond cross-over should be installed between the 8th Ave local track and lower level track serving 50th and 42nd and a second diamond crossover between the lower level track serving 50th and 42nd and the 8th Ave express track.
This would give that needed flexibility when the "A" should go local or the "C" should go express from 42nd St. south to 23rd or Canal.
I'd favor rush hour use for the "E" and layup (2 trains) during extremely cold weather. An additional escalater to the mezzanine would aid those P.A. Bus users.
avid
There was an escalator from the mezzanine to the lower level. It was in the extreme southwest corner of the mezzanine at 40th St. Sometimes it would be running on Saturday mornings, sometimes it would be off. AFAIK it's still in place, but the area where it originates has been walled off. Apparently the mezzanine extends beyond the tunnel entrance on the south end because the escalator doesn't cut through the active southbound platform. You can see it if you look to the right on a southbound A train just after it enters the tunnel.
No, its not that far south. It right next to the last usable stair way to the platform. It is all walled in as it passes for the lower level, through the upper leve. This to prevent subwaysurfers from taking shortcuts. Check the doors to this walled off area. Signs reading "ELEVATOR DEPT."
From Peters photos the escalators look as if they've been cannibalized for parts.
I beleive there were two escalators. I'm basing this guess on Peters photos.
Now that you mention it, that escalator was very close to the southernmost staircase to the platform. I became intimately familiar with the 42nd St. mezzanine during the three years I was a Saturday commuter, and used that very staircase all the time. There used to be "Entrance to Aqueduct Specials at 40th Street" signs all along the mezzanine, and another sign marked, "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special" with an arrow pointing to the escalator. It was fenced off on Saturday mornings, and I alwayd had the impression it was abandoned.
I also remember when the northern end of the lower level was used as an underpass between both active platforms. In those days, the middle of the mezzanine was outside the paid fare zone. We were headed uptown once and accidentally went through the turnstiles to the downtown platform. I remembered the underpass and led our group to the northern end of the platform as an E train of R-38s departed on the express track. We went down the stairs and then I saw the track and platform through the chain link fence they had rigged up. It felt like a twilight zone and gave me the creeps.
Yes , there was a stairway down to the lower level from the upper level platform there too! It was sealed up about three of four years ago. I think they laid corragated metal across the top and poured concret. If needed again, it could be restored. The ceiling above shows the strutureral outline for a stairway that was either closed or never used. From what the ceiling shows and the platform reveals from the slightly different concret, a strairway from the mezzanine to the upper level platform, walk around to the back of the stairs and desend to the lower level. A lot of stations had preplanned positions for additional stairways.
If and when the tile is laid on the upper level platform, traces of the stairs to the lower level will be lost to the casual eye.
This may be a Kodak Moment to capture if the new tile floor has not been laid yet.
As of last August, I changed my pattern of commuting, so I rarely get to 42nd St. on the 8th Ave line. Back then rehab work was beginning to get ready for new wall tile, floor tile and what ever else was contracted for. On the Mezzanine there was a babe that painted herself light blue with a sprinkle of sparkle dust. She stood motionless like a statue, then would move slightly. Anyone else see the BLUE MAIDEN?
Now, with station re-hab and renovation a lot of stairs have been removed. 14th street comes to mind as one victim of stair lose.
Sounds like a genetic malady. Stair lose.
avid
Now, with station re-hab and renovation a lot of stairs have been removed. 14th street comes to mind as one victim of stair loss.
Yeah, why is this? Why do they remove stairways? How much maintenance can it possibly take for an indoors concrete stairway?
It's not a maintenance issue. It's a space issue. The mezzanines are reused. They go from open space for passenger use to some department that needs office or storage space, sometimes Police station use.
Its a security issue, less area to cover, less things to hide behind. It keeps the passengers in a smaller area.
One bad effect of stairloss is the elimination of channels for air flow. During the summer the stations have become hotter. Large volumns of air once flowed up those stairs.
avid
I used that underpass in 1985ish. Very dark, smelly and full of rats.
Ah, yes---the rats! Now they have that entire level to themselves and, if the station is the same as it was back in the 1970's and 1980's, have plenty of food on which to feast since there was always a TON of trash thrown in and around the collection bins. The closet areas on the side of the platform were holding areas for all the trash generated throughout the entire 42nd St.subway complex. Maintenance guys would tell me horror stories of the rats getting in to the electrical areas and gnawing on the wires as if they were sticks of licorice. I know, I know--I did a post on rats not too long ago, but after all I'm Tunnel Rat!
The old timers here on ST may well remember Smelly Kelly, the Depression-Era smell-detecting sleuth of the subways. A legend among the many men of subway lore, he and his super-sensitive sniffer were often employed to detect strong scents and odors in the tunnels that often-times spelled serious danger. Many gas and chemical leaks were located and remedied thanks to Kelly and his reliance on special instruments and yes, seriously, his schnozz. He also was able to discern if a stinky stench was harmful or not simply by nose thus preventing needless time and expense in the course of remedial action. An example of the more "benign" odors found were those of decaying dead rats. There were countless times when the general public would mistake the malodor of rat with a more malevolent source.
There was a book written years ago that devoted many pages to Smelly Kelly. I don't recall the title, but it told of many aspects of NYC underground. As a young man, I recall taking this book out of the NY Public Library quite often. The above is from what I remembered reading in said book and also from my father, who worked as a top-level maintenance man for the TA for 40 years plus.
Does any ST'er know the title/author of the book?
Tunnel Rat
There was a book written years ago that devoted many pages to Smelly Kelly. I don't recall the title, but it told of many aspects of NYC underground. As a young man, I recall taking this book out of the NY Public Library quite often. The above is from what I remembered reading in said book ... Does any ST'er know the title/author of the book?
I've got it at home. I'll look it up this evening.
Grey cover, got mine for 25 cents from a library sale. Best quarter I ever spent. Written about 1960.
If you could, I'd be most appreciative.
It's "The World Beneath the City," by Robert Daley. Mine was a first edition published in 1959. Amazon knows about it and will offer you a link to buy it used. Hope this helps.
The mezzanine had been fully incorporated into the paid fare zone by 1988 at least; I used 42nd St. quite a bit during the week I was in the city after my sister's wedding and stayed at the Travel Inn Motor Hotel.
Didn't see any rats on the lower level in 1968; at that time, Aqueduct Specials were still using it.
I was under the impression the track's switches were removed. My bad.
I think the track is still in use. Once in a while I listen to my scanner at work and the IND Train Master talks about putting work trains on the lower level.
That would be good to here.
The switches just north of 34th St. are still there.
Under the regular IND platform or the lower level IND platform?
Under everything.
Here's the story.
The upper level of the IND is about 30 feet deep; lower level 45 feet deep; #7 IRT 60 feet deep. Even if the measurements are off by ten feet, there's still plenty of room to make a small dip under.
Under everything.
Here's the story.
The upper level of the IND is about 30 feet deep; lower level 45 feet deep; #7 IRT 60 feet deep. Even if the measurements are off by ten feet, there's still plenty of room to make a small dip under.
Hi Folks,
Well, I'm afraid I have to disagree with this depth issue at Lower 42nd. I remember when this discussion raged here on this site about a year ago. I wrote to a TA contact I had at that time and he did some investigation with various departments within the TA.
The upshot of it is that the stations are very close in relative depths. I quote from my source:
The results were the platform at D3 at 42 Street is 41 feet six inches below street level (not sidewalk level). Add 4 feet to track level, another couple of feet for support structure below. Times Square platform is 49 feet below street level.
This latter number I independently verified against the emergency exit locations. The emergency exit on W41 St, 490 feet east of TSq, between Broadway and 6 Ave is 52 feet from the sidewalk to the "tracks." (It's 177 feet west of 6 Ave.) For the sake of comparison, emergency exits on 8th Ave at 47th St and at 37 St are 24 to 26 feet deep. The exit at 55 St which also services the lower level (ABCD) comes in at 47 feet.
So it looks like the Hylan theory might still have a bit of life left in it < grin >.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
If you assume one set of tracks has to be 16' below another (25 steps - that seems about typical in actual practice), then the #7 needs to drop down another 8.5' between the west end of the Times Square Station (roughly mid-block between 7th and 8th Aves.) and 8th Ave.
That's a drop of 8.5' in a length of 500', or under 2% grade. That shouldn't be a problem, should it?
Given the grade of the Steinway tunnel east of Grand Central, a drop like that wouldn't be any problem.
The trouble west of Eighth Ave. would be deciding what to do about getting the IRT tunnel extension either around, over or under the Lincoln Tunnel entry tubes and access ramps in order for it to reach the Javits Center at 34th St. and 11th Ave.
Always good to have better data. Thanks, Peter!
Very Interesting. The lower level platform was built along with the rest of the station in 1932, but it was only used from 1959 to 1981 for odd services like the Aqueduct Racetrack special fare trains, and for rush hour E trains for a period during the 1970s.
So basically the lower level was abandoned for 27 years already when it was built. I guess this is why the tiles look like the tiles from Liberty to Euclid. Were the tiles only installed around 1959?
The platform had no wall tiles and was unused until the Aquaduct specials were started in the late 1950's. Even after these trains were eliminated, the platform was used by E trains in the AM rush hours.
The E used the lower level station in PM rush as well, when the line ran express in the early 1970s to Canal and then continued on to Brooklyn, while the AA ran as Eighth Ave. local to Chambers-WTC.
The AA did not run during rush hours; the CC took its place along 8th Ave. to Chambers-WTC.
Why? southbound E's coming off 53rd St. hardly had the need to avoid a potential merging delay north of 42nd. St.
I suppose it was to avoid slowing down the A coming south out of 59th St. Both the A and E could enter 42nd at the same time on different levels, instead of possibly having to hold the A at 59th and delaying any southbound D trains behind it (though you would think there would be enough space between 50th and 59th Sts. to hold the A if a southbound E express was in front of it).
If memory serves the lower level of the 42 Street Station was featured in the movie "Ghost."
Larry,RedbirdR33
It was featured in Ghost in a few scenes. The scene where the other ghost is teaching Patrick Swayze how to move things showed the station very clear. Until this site, I always thought they dressed some other station up as 42 St, because it was a wall platform, and the tiles seemed wierd (I thought it was fake), but I never thought that the tiles were like Euclid. It drove me crazy because a real train goes through, so I knew it was a real station, but I couldn't figure out where. When I found this site I relized 42 had an abandoned lower level.
<<<"Until this site, I always thought they dressed some other station up as 42 St, because it was a wall platform, and the tiles seemed wierd (I thought it was fake), but I never thought that the tiles were like Euclid. It drove me crazy because a real train goes through, so I knew it was a real station, but I couldn't figure out where. When I found this site I relized 42 had an abandoned lower level.">>>
My thoughts had been the same- I noticed the very real R32 (signed as the "4" on the car ends) passing through a station that sure as hell ddin't look like any 42nd Street Station I knew.
Then this site came along, and it suddenly clear to me...
Rush hour E trains also used the lower level in the early 70s.
DM: The lower level of 42 Street was used by southbound rush hour E trains from about the late 60's to middle 70's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The lower level had one escalator, it was removed this summer to allow the contractors to lower new ejectors. As far as I know all the staircases are still intact, only cemented over on the upper level. The crossover to the uptown side was converted into a electrical closet. For what no one seems to know.
The underpass was no longer needed after the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone.
I have no idea what an ejector is, but it must be a lot of fun compared to a boring escalator. Sounds like it would clear rush hour crowds in a hurry.
On the subject of this station does anyone know why the northbound and southbound platforms are not lined up with each other?
Each platform is wider, it takes up the width of two platforms without widening the total width of the line.
I was wondering..what's the TA position on photography in the subway these days?
I'd be particularly interested in hearing from any TA employees reading this, as well as anyone else who's taken a pic lately...
Would I be risking a fine and/or confiscation/destruction of my camera and/or film?
I just want a few photos of the "V" and "W" trains in action- I wouldn't enter any prohibited areas or cause any trouble at all....I shouldn't expect an problems, should I?
Thanks!!
The rules haven't changed and can be found in the faq. There's even a citation of where to look them up if you want an official copy to carry around.
That doesn't mean you might not find some misinformed people who would object to your taking pictures, so like you said, don't cause any trouble and you should be fine.
Thank You.
The guys in the crews interested in learning ask me what's new on the net. The guys on SubTalk ask me what's new on the rails. I caught the BSE postings...I'd like some help to start and share. Arigoto CI Peter
Do deska ... BVE beat SONY again ... it's the ultimate balm for a rail foamer though. Lets you get in the cab without being hauled off to the hoosegow ...
i was reading peter doughertys trackbook. Anyways i noticed Jamaica was (before 9/11/01) they would send 23 Es, 46 Fs in afternoon and 50 in the morning. 12 Gs and 22 Rs. what is it now? Do they carry All the Es? or do Es come from elsewhere? Also what are the numbers now?
All E's are from Jamaica.
All F's are from Jamaica as well, however some are stored in the Avenue X Yard in the Coney Island complex. Only 45 F trains run during the AM and PM.
All G's are from Jamaica.
All R's are from Jamaica, however some are stored in the relay track in Bay Ridge, as well as City Hall Yard and the 4th Avenue Express tracks south of 36th Street.
The G now come out of Coney Island Yard. They park three down under Chruch Ave. and the rest come from the CI Yard. All the Crew sign in at the yard and the one that have the Put In from Chruch Ave Dead Head to Chruch Ave.
Robert
I was wondering if that had really happened, but then I've seen a lot of G's deadheading through 7th Ave, so I was kinda thinking yes.
CI now has R46s?
For what I hope is the last time:
Subway cars are assigned to MAINTENANCE SHOPS, not to YARDS. The G fleet is assigned to JAMAICA MAINTENANCE SHOP, and evidently at least some of the trainsets used on the line are stored at CONEY ISLAND YARD. SHOP does not equal YARD, and YARD does not equal SHOP.
David
First of all, I am not a New Yorker. You need not get on my case because I didn't know something. Even though you might think someone on this board does, no one here knows everything. Secondly, where I am from, cars are maintained where they are stored for lay ups, etc. Often when I hear someone say this is out of (name of yard), that is what I think of.
Subway cars are assigned to MAINTENANCE SHOPS, not to YARDS. The G fleet is assigned to JAMAICA MAINTENANCE SHOP, and evidently at least some of the trainsets used on the line are stored at CONEY ISLAND YARD. SHOP does not equal YARD, and YARD does not equal SHOP.
I think it's been said enough times in enough threads that it's getting tedious to keep repeating.
First time I recall seeing it, too. Good to know.
David's posted that bit of information at least 3 seperate times over the the last few weeks. There are some threads that just keep repeating ad-nauseum. I tget's frustrating to keep repeating the same answers.
"It gets frustrating...." No question about that, TD. I guess it was in threads of titles that did not appear interesting to me.
Any word on the Jamaica yard expansion? We had to take trains to the yard from Parsons just to let the collector come in without slowing down the line.
Of course a 4th layup at PA-E would get rid of 2 switching jobs.
G trains MAY be stored there, but are still shopped in Queens. Coney does no work on R46's.
I believe the G still comes from Jamaica yard, and is still part of the Queens pic. After all, i still see Gs in jamaica yard, and they dead head on Queens blvd local tracks from 71av to queens plaza and just enter service at court aq. i see Gs all the time. they are not in service, but they are only 4 cars and the Motorman usually has the G sigh up already
The G is still serviced ("shopped") in Jamaica Shop, and some trains are stored in Jamaica Yard, and some are also stored in the Church Avenue Yard, and Coney Island Yard.
All G trains are SHOPPED/SERVICED in Jamaica Shop, but trains could be STORED elsewhere.
Sorry I am out of date with this. When the "G" was extended to 71st. Ave on weekends (and nights) at what time did the first one roll out of 71 on Sun 12-16 and when did the first 71 Av.-bound leave Smith 9th Sts.? If anyone remembers, please help. Thank you.
The new "G" timetable at the TA's site will answer your questions.
www.mta.info
Hi, but that does not work for me. I cannot deduce a specific interval for start up service from a timetable showing 24/2 weekend service. Sorry, but thanks for your input.
Sure you can, just think about the service change and the exact time it started and you will have your answer from the timetable.
Not if he doesn't know the exact time it started.
Let's go back to 7/22, the first day of the yellow Q. The service change officially took place at midnight -- yet I was standing at Stillwell the time (as were two other SubTalkers), where one or two D trains left after midnight. The timetables aren't sufficient (especially in this case, where presumably a supplement schedule was in effect since the Q was only running to 42 thanks to a reroute on the R).
Today's issue of 'Metro' featured the results of a poll of SEPTA Regional Rail riders regarding cell phone usage. Apparently only 39% of those polled think a quiet car is needed, while about 60% favor free use of phones on trains. As a compromise SEPTA offered a few suggestions of common courtesy to cell phone users (keep conversations low, put phones on low ring/vibrate, be considerate, etc).
In my very limited experience on the Regional Rail system, I haven't seen phone usage to be a big problem. In my very frequent experience on the transit side, it doesn't appear to be a significant problem either (those who use phones tend to keep their voices low). Is this just a Phila thing or what? Is the problem bigger than that I'm seeing? Apparently those who took the poll don't seem to think it's that big a deal either. ?
I haven't had a whole lot of problems with cell phones on any SEPTA vehicles. Occassionally I hear an annoying ring, but for the most part I don't see too much use going on, not enough to warrant quiet cars.
Mark
>>> Apparently only 39% of those polled think a quiet car is needed, while about 60% favor free use of phones on trains. <<<
From the threads here on Sub Talk last year regarding cell phones, you would get the impression that they were a major disturbance for those meditating in the silent monastery like atmosphere of the New York subways*. I believe it was really a case of handset envy. As more people get their own cell phones, and as users learn they do not have to shout to use them, they are becoming more acceptable.
Tom
*Sarcasm isn't worth using if you have to tell people you are using it.
I've heard that SEPTA is experiencing major problems on the Girard Ave/Route 15 rebuild with line poles. Many of the old cast iron poles are snapping/failing for no apparent reason. So many have failed that each pole to be reused is being closely examined to see if it has any life left. Of course, one must keep in mind that the poles are 80+ years old, but it seems odd that this is happening. The downside is that the new style pole, while metal (as opposed to the massive and ugly concrete pole used by SEPTA over the past 20 years), is not the most attractive pole in the world, and a little bit of history goes by the wayside when the old poles are removed. Some of those in West Phila date back to the days of the Hestonville, Mantua and Fairmount Railway, which was absorbed into the Phila Rapid Transit at the turn of the last century. THe HM & F pole caps were a distinctive spire and can be seen on many of the old poles on Lansdowne Ave (Route 10) as well as Girard.
SEPTA will probably find lots of deterioration of the tracks and overhead on Route 15 and other non-Subway-Surface lines because of literally decades of deferred maintenance. Even though Routes 23 and 56 are being kept intact, it's been ten years since the last trolleys ran in regular service (although parts of 23 still see occasional cars). Eventually, major street repairs or utility projects will press the issue of just how much SEPTA wants trolleys back on these routes. I recall how, when Route 60 was "temporarily bussed" in 1977, the line sat fallow for years until PennDot wanted to repave Allegheny Avenue - and the rails were covered over.
The reason the poles are failing is simple. Water, which gets into the pole at the butt (base), eventually corrodes the iron to point that it cannot suport the weight above and the pole fails. Added that neither PTC (in the later years) or SEPTA has not properly maintained the North Philadelphia system since its inception. Metal poles (iron and steel) should be scraped and painted about every 30 years in city street operations.
There is another way to preserve/re-use metal poles:
1. Cut the pole at the butt. (Usually poles fail at the butt.)
2. Weld a new steel section about 6 feet long to the pole.
3. Replant. Pole should, with proper maintenance, last 50 or more years.
Besides "Closing Door" which I previously mentioned, what other movies come to mind with scenes from the London Underground?
American Wherewolve In London
Quadrophenia, The Who's rock opera movie.
Heya,
Anyone wanna get together to check crap out on Marta? I am back to riding it everyday and actually got on a new train tonight! the blue and white is 10000000000000000000x better then the brady bunch woodgrain :)
trains seem to get up to speed quicker, tho I do not care for the ding dong dong ding
email me if you are interested, mebbe we could put something together...
mightyman@onebox.com
Thanks,
Allen
I sent to an email. You're right, the new trains are waaay better than, as i heard someone say, "the baby shit yellow cars." I see them all the time in service on every line.
U mean to tell me they still do the marta subeway.. DING DONG !! down there still ..........damn !!
& them suckers R loud !!! whew !!!
salaam... no pic? IM SHOCKED!!!!
sorry folks !!
LOL !!
hey
that pic, where is it from? those trains look way narrow... like even narrower then a redbird
allen
That's Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority's Blue Line (yes, even with yellow stripes, but that's the company colors....)
The cars are 8'6 feet wide, I believe -- slightly narrower than the IRT stock. I think their height (and the big "hole" under the cab with the coupler in it, plus the pantograph) makes them look even narrower.
that is the second paint scam from the original scam ...a repaint job was done on em ..
lol !!
Wouldn't it have been much nicer if they made the stripes on the new scheme BLUE for the Blue Line and Green for the Green Line and leave just the buses yellow....
>>> Wouldn't it have been much nicer if they made the stripes on the new scheme BLUE for the Blue Line and Green for the Green Line and leave just the buses yellow.... <<<
Different paint schemes would reduce the ability to move the LRV cars between lines. As it is now, they have moved quite a few cars from the Green Line to the Blue Line because of the increase of an additional car (three rather than two) on rush hour trains. They are putting the new Siemens cars on the Green Line. There was a period of time when cars with the blue paint and cars with the yellow paint ran intermixed on both lines, and it did not look good.
Tom
those are Shayro Light rail cars built in japan for the los angeles light rail systems known as the long beach blue line & the so called airport green line cars
repainted from thier original paint scam now in either white gold stripe & blue or green accent.. etc .. the power is picked up overhead etc... lol
PHOTO TAKEN BY ME SUMMER 2001
12 avenue at flower streets downtown lost angeles !! .......lol !!
Should have asked me last week! I had a layover at Hartsfield and ended up snowed in for 24 hours. I got to do a lot of riding, though.
Mark
Can anybody give my detailed instructions or point me to a place that does on how to operate the BVE trains? It seems different trains use different buttons and I am clueless. How do I get the EMG brake off on the commuter type train? What is the safe system. It's a great program but it seems without a decent guide to operate the trains it's useless.
I know z is accelerate, a is reduce speed (like a brake), > is brake release and / is brake but how do I stop the bells? Page up and page down do something in the commuter type train.
Please if anybody knows where to find decent instructions please let me know so I can start enjoying the BVE program. Thanks!
Piece of cake, bro ... one of THE definitive "how do I work this thing?" pages is here:
BVE HELPER
And how to DRIVE that puppy is right here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/control_drive.htm
The main site has every answer you're looking for and in ENGRISH! :)
Thanks I'll try that!
Okay, I can handle that my commute from Steinway to Jay St is no longer a one-seat ride 95% of the trip anymore. I can handle walking to the far far far end of the platform to the connector between 23/Ely and Court Sq.
But.
Why is it that whenever I walk down that connector (both to work and back home), the people mover is moving the opposite direction from me, and there are always 100 people walking my way for every solitary sod on the people mover? Are there really more people coming FROM the G to the 53St tunnel in the morning? Could've sworn it would be the opposite, but I suppose all them Greenpointers who work in Midtown gotta get to work somehow...
Well, most people work in Manhattan, so yes, people are going to 53rd in the morning to get into Manhattan, and the other way to get home. Though people may work in Brooklyn, most work in Manhattan.
Question: Why do you take the G at all? If you want to get to Jay, just take a V from Steinway and stay on it to anywhere along 6th Ave, preferably West 4th because you have the A/C upstairs for Jay if it is necessary, and wait for an F to Jay. No stairs, no people movers, etc, and the time difference cannot be that bad, it's three trains the way you're going.
Think about what he said he must be a late night traveller.
If that was the case then he wouldn't have a problem since the G runs to 71st/Forest Hills during that time (starting at 8:30 PM).
aha but coming back it does not
I think he wants to go from Queens to Brooklyn w/o going through Manhattan. While I can understand that maybe he should consider your suggestion and take the V into Manhattan, he can always get off at any stop before 2nd Av and get the F to Jay St (or at W4th of the A or C if needed).
Of course not including 2nd ave, lest he wish to take his odds on a 40/60 shot the train will hit his track (unbalanced because it's more efficient to fill the northbound track when both tracks are empty).
No his old one seat ride to work was VIA manhattan and late night because it was Via the F, now it is a two seat ride at night. Going home the people movers are against him.
Really going to work, taking the local to Roosevelt and changing sides for the F might work better and the F to the V going home might be better or the local to Queens Plaza and the bus (tricky).
>.or the local to Queens Plaza and the bus (tricky).
Going to work not coming home
If you could re-design the entire NYC Subway system from scratch, in effect, erasing the whole thing and starting over, what would you do differently?
(Without getting too fanciful, of course)
Some prompts:
- Direct service to JFK anf LGA
- Grid-style (1 line per track, like London & Paris) or branch style (as it is now)?
- Routes designed to serve the far reaches of Queens
- Tunnels built to serve the city, not compete with each other, with uniform car size
- Service to Jersey and Staten Island?
Thinking caps on.
Bring the IRT to system standards, so any train could run on any line.
Modify PATH to subway standards.
To put it simply:
1) Ban cars altogether from the borough of Manhattan
2) More subway lines, both in Manhattan, and throughout the city
3) More frequent subway service on each line
As for the specifics, probably a grid-style system, one north-south line either every 1 block or every 2 blocks apart. More crosstowns in Midtown, each one leading to some place in the outer boroughs (hence more outer borough service as well).
Nice Put the TLC out of buisness. Even though I don't favorite much our city's only left official Mafia run organization, I do support the drivers, both Taxi and Livery. if one would eliminate cars from manhattan, one immediately needs to make a whole lot more connections with Jersey and Upstate. Also one has to rebuild all the bridges so they could be used for transit. Its not very practical to me to make all our existing east river bridges into giant walking concourses for pedestrians.
One nutty idea I had was to ban cars from Manhattan EXCEPT on 34th Street between the Midtown and Licoln Tunnels and Canal St between the Manhattan Bridge and the Holland Tunnel, and of course the Trans-Manhattan Expwy (that far uptown might as well be openned to cars anyway.) Effectively Canal and 34th would then be turned almost into expressways, and pedestrian bridges would be built at every "intersection" with what would now be pedestrian streets. Perhaps safety walls would be built to seperate the pedestrians from auto traddic.
Now, even as I type this the flaws are becoming evident. Without any cars in Manhattan, the trains would be supercrowded. You'd need a LOT more subways. And I doubt 34th or Canal would convert well to expressways.
:-) Andrew
Build the entire IND Second System in its most fullblown version. Include the SI to 4th Ave BMT tunnel,
completely integrate the ex NYC/NH/LIRR electrical systems for fully flexible services--this includes reclaiming the High Line and joint use of the "Empire Connection" with catenary to Albany and 150mph service, reclaim and multitrack the West Shore and build a bridge over the Hudson to feed it to the current MN. okay I wake up soon.
STRIP all trackage and put down buffered welded rail with pan clips.
ELIMINATE electromech track zones...install inductive comm links
REPLACE all incandescent signals
UNIFY system with standard car size/BIE trips on trucks
MAKE the employees 'user friendly' like WalMart
ALL trainsets CBTC with backup
I've opened a can of worms I cannot close. CI Peter
MAKE the employees 'user friendly' like WalMart
Lotsa the TA help is user-friendly. Some are grumpy-growly foul.
Being user-friendly is likely to get the help in trouble with their supervisors.
Conductors really do need to have people skills. But it's as if they deliberately employ those who lack them altogether.
No, they just don't give any training in people skills.
Nothing like the spaced out smile that welcomes you to WalMart. CI Peter
I emailed you a couple of nights ago...Did you get it??? I haven't received any reply. Please let me know. Thanks.
Out of all of the local lines that offer service on Amtrak's NE Corridor, I think New Jersey Transit has the best, brightest, and cleanest so far. My personal favorite is the Hamilton station right outside Trenton.
Does anyone else have any favorite stations, and what local rail service has the best stations (NE Coridor only)
The NJT station in Atlantic City is also a good one.
I also like the Hamilton station, both inside and outside.
The Hamilton Station is practically brand new. Of course it's pretty. OTOH, it might just stay that way, unless NJT owns it. West Windsor owns the next north/eastbound station, Princeton Junction, and it's kept up very nicely. I'm pretty sure NJT owns the rest of the stations on the NEC, and they are comparitively shabby. Take Metuchen, for example, with its badly remodeled station building and the ugly tiel paintjob. If the town of Hamilton is responsible for their station, it should be well-maintained.
Yes, the Princeton Junction station is also kept up very well, and was recently refurbished.
I used to like the Newark station because of the PCC cars running around its basement.
That station is a class act! Looks like nice landscaping also.
PJ has a full station building on either side of the tracks. It also has an accessable walkway under the tracks. In case you hear, NJ surpassed CT as the richest state in the US and PJ is right smack in the middle of the wealth belt. I was there last Saturday. My cousin lives 2 blocks from the station and I spent an hour there taking night photograhps. It is a wonderful railfan location. Aside from the 12 car NJT MU trains and the single unit Princeton shuttle (aka the dink), ALP hauled NJt trains and Amtra Keystones and Clockers stop there. The most thrilling part is that this is one of the fastest parts of the NEC and non-stoping Amtrak trains tear through the station at 110-120mph. You have a 2-3 mile view down the tracks in either direction you you always know if something is comming and there is a PRR signal bridge that helps liven things up as well. The station is so popular that if you want a parking space you need to check the obituares.
PJ has a full station building on either side of the tracks.
There's no station building on the southbound side; just a roof over part of the platform and the stairs to the tunnel and the Dinky platform, with a wall connecting the rear of the platform to the roof. There's no station on the other side of the wall.
The station is so popular that if you want a parking space you need to check the obituares.
I work with people who live in Princeton Jct whose spouses drive to Hamilton because they can't park at PJ.
There is a station building on the SB trackside. It is in the crook where the NEC platform joins the dink platform about where the old PJ station used to be. It is small, but there are seats, TVM's and possible a window. In the two pics you liked to I believe the first was the NB station and the second the SB waiting area.
I went back to the Princeton Junction station today to check out my memory. It's no better than it ever was. The westbound platform is more spartan than I'd remembered; there's no wall; just an open platform with a roof over it. The Dinky waiting roomwas locked and was used for storing boxes the last time I checked it out (last Oct 17), but today it was open and in use as a waiting room. It has two doors, windows, benches, two pay telephones, but no TVM's. It is, as you stated, where the Dinky platform and the westbound platform meet.
Twenty five years ago, city guy takes self-propelled to Princeton Junction for job interview. Walked half a mile in winter street...dress shoes. Company invented boxcar integration system. Wear only work boots today. CI Peter
So Amtrak Acela Express doesn't reach the maximum allowed 135 here (125 for conventional trains)?
I only saw conventional trains.
I believe that the Acela Express does go through at maximum speed... not 100% certain though. I'm basing this on my own Acela ride through there; we were on the express tracks, passing another Amtrak train (Metroliner or other short train) which was on the local tracks but which had not stopped at the station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well you sold me. I'll have to take a look for myself oneday.
One interesting thing about Hamilton station is the fact that no signs say "New York". They only say "Newark"! Even on the WESTBOUND platform, the sign directs passengers up the stairs for "Trains to Newark". The reason I put WESTBOUND in caps is because on New Jersey Transit, everything is considered EAST and WEST, not north and south. In other posts in this thread, the "southbound" side of Princeton Junction was referred to. I knew what they meant, however, in railroad terms, it's wrong. Interestingly enough, even when the coastline trains are traveling due EAST when going from Hazlet to Middletown, for example, that is reffered to as a WESTBOUND train. Crazy, huh? But, that's the way it is!
hey welcome to myopic RR robber baron arrogance--the "friendly SP" numbered and classed ALL trains with reference to or from San Francisco. Thus in ealr ATK years the Coast Starlight changed from a westbound (LA-Oak) to an Eastbound (Oak-Sea) and changed numbers.
Halilton is without a doubt the best commuter station in the country. Being brad nes helps more than a little. It is a bis hub, it has acres of parking, landscaping, public sculpture, extremely well lit, a glass walkway over the 4 mainline NEC tracks, hi-level platforms at the level of the parking area, easy freeway access, hated waiting area and many other things I am sure I have forgotten about.
"Hated waiting areas?" "Brad nes?"
The Brads of the world thank you. Whom should I hate upon entering the waiting room?
:0)
(I understood what you meant to type, though. Sounds like a cool station).
I had just rolled out of bed.
I thought maybe you were using your cell phone -- wireless web -- small buttons, you know.
Or maybe Brad's cellphone.
The acres of parking get FULL! However, parking by the Transit building reserved lot is opened up at (I think) 10 AM to the general public. If you get there at 9 AM, you join the caravan of cars circling the lot following passengers who got off arriving trains.
...hi-level platforms at the level of the parking area...
High level platform at the level of the parking area is well illustrated in these two photos.
lets see......hmmmm.........
the san diego "redbirds"
long beach Blue Line ..MTA los angeles ...
how bout your vote ?
Well, Salaam, you've got to define "best." In the US, for railfan purposes, I think I'd still have to say Philadelphia. It has a balance of fast, efficient running, with the trolley subway downtown. Add to that a diversity of rights-of-way outside the subway, lots of non-revenue trackage, running of tree-lined streets as well as gritty urbran ones. Let's not forget the suburban lines with an old-fashioned traction terminal, runs through woods and interurban style street crossing, and single-track street running in Media. I like the equipment, too--real street railway "feel."
All of North America, maybe I'd give the edge to Toronto. Even more diversity, expanding routes, lots of street running, nice equipment.
Honorable mention, SF.
Many many European system would blow these away, though.
Though there are many nice features on newer American systems, I don't think there's enough of any one to make it a best.
Wow! It's good to hear Philly's transit to get avote for the best in anything!
I've not ridden all the U.S. systems, but I really like St. Louis Metrolink for its airport service and old victorian underground sections, Dallas DART for its rapid expansion in a car-dominated city, and Salt Lake City's UTA TRAX for the incredible mountain scenery.
Like you I love Toronto (their whole transit system, too) with its unique streetcars and extensive lines.
Mark
Boston's light rail isn't too bad either.
Leipzig in Germany - it's massive.
Ottawa's O-Train!!! Sure it's currently only a five station, single track line, but there are lots of expansion plans and those Bombardier Talent trains are SWEET!!!!!
did anyone see the amsterdam trams pictures etc... webmaster dave took ??
Last week I bought a scanner that does 35 mm slides. I'm in the process of putting some of my train shots on my photo website.
1973 to 1975
1974 to 1980
Great stuff Bob! The MP54 in original paint are super. Thaks for sharing.
avid
Nice pictures. I think that was my first time seeing a GG1 in use (except for my HO model).
nice pictures. Chuchubob
Excellent shots, Bob!. Too bad these weren't scanned in time for the photo contest. My 2 favorites are:
GG-1 #900, 11 Mar 74 S.B. out of 30th St
and
Bullet car #200 Radnor, 17 Oct 74
Too bad you didn't find one of Bullet Car #205. I would have liked to have seen it in P&W livery.
Too bad you didn't find one of Bullet Car #205. I would have liked to have seen it in P&W livery.
I thinkI rode #205 more than any of the others. #209 was probably the runner-up. Needless to say, I nearly did a flip the first time I saw #205 at Rockhill.
Thanks, Pete, for your response. And thanks also to avid reader, 4thAvenueLocal, amin peralta, and howardr142 for your kind responses.
This second choice is out of sight!
It should be on a calander for the Month of October.
I'd call it "Indian Summer Interlude" or something mushy like that.
You realize what you are doing?
You are slowly creating an addiction , a craving for a digital camera, a lust to learn hom to morph photos old and new..
avid
Great shots!!
I would like to mention that any G renumbered to the 900's had already been sold to Amtrak. That was done so that the GG-1 rosters would be separated. The ones still in 4800 and 4900 series were still in the hands of the court overseeing the PC bankruptcy. The court OK'd the sale of the motors. Amtrak took only the newer 4900 series motors.
GG1 4800 to 4855 were geared for 90 mph and were therefore used for freight service. GG1 4856 to 4938 eventually made their way to Amtrak (not inclusive). Not that the early loco's coudln't pull. Those pics of #4800 that chuchubob took were on a fan trip. He told me that the loco hauled 21 cars and an E-60 all by itself with AEM-7+ acceleration. The E-60 was providing HEP only.
Great shots!
Wow! Amazing slides! It's nice to have such a variety on each page.
What kind of scanner/slide adapter did you get? I've been eyeing one for myself.
Thanks. It's an Epson. Can't give you the model number cause I'm at work and it's at home, but it has the transparency scanning system built into the lid, rather than as a portable lamp placed over the glass. If you want more specific info, email me.
I went back for another look.
The two Bullet shots, 208 December Calander "to Grandmothers House we go."
204 January "Over the Mountain and through the woods"
I feel as if I was allowed to take a peek back through time. Thanks.
avid
Very nice stuff, I enjoyed very much, thanks for sharing.
Mr rt__:^)
I use this photo storage database too .. on exite.
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
"Mobilizing the Region" yesterday had a bit on the Second Avenue Subway alternate routing debate (much discussed here: Build new line in eastern portion of financial district, or hook into J/M/Z?).
Their piece mentioned a J/M/Z connection would "not build any completely new subway stations south of 23rd Street (14th Street and Houston are served by the L and F/V respectively.)"
I dropped a note to say this wasn't quite correct, since AFAIK the L station at 14th has NO Second Avenue infrastructure. Was this correct? I presume a 2nd Ave line would have to drop underneath the existing L. Despite the depth of the L station at Third Ave, it doesn't look to me like the east end has enough room to put 2nd Ave tracks plus mezzanine above the L. A 2nd Ave station below the L would be getting pretty deep there.
Also AFAIK, at the Houston station that leads to the Rutgers Tunnels, there is structural stuff built in preparation for IND Second System but no station shell or trackways or anything. Is this correct? How much if anything is actually build?
(I looked through this site but the Sixth Ave-63rd Street line info doesn't seem to answer my Qs .... )
Based on the depth of the L at Union Square (three levels below ground) and First Ave. (two levels), it might be possible to thread a Second Ave. line one level below the street at 14th, and above the L line. A transfer downstairs to the L at the east end of the Third Ave. station could then be built.
But because of the layout at Houston St., with the F tracks and the Essex connection via Chystie St. (Willie B-bound) two levels below ground while the B/D tracks on Chrystie and the Essex-B'way Lafayette connection are one level underground, any Second Ave. line station there would probably have to be three levels below the surface to avoid conflict with those other lines. Given that, it would make more sense to keep the Second Ave line a deep tunnel between Houston and 14th, and run the tracks under the 14th St. line, with the transfer to the L at Third Ave. being upstairs instead of downstairs, while a common mezzanine for both lines could be built one level below ground, at Second Ave. and 14th St.
because of the layout at Houston St., with the F tracks and the Essex connection via Chystie St. (Willie B-bound) two levels below ground while the B/D tracks on Chrystie and the Essex-B'way Lafayette connection are one level underground
I don't know the station, but isn't all that grade level splitting done west of the station? The track book shows what looks like a standard one-level four-track station: Inside express tracks into a dead-end lead to the tunnel that was never built, outside locals to the F running north/south along Essex Street.
And I thought that the station had at least some Second Avenue provisions built into it? This sentence is on that station's listing on the IND Sixth Avenue/63rd Street Line page: "Evidence of the connection for the 2nd Ave. Subway is found in a lower transverse ceiling." It describes a standard four-track station as above.
Another question is, where and how would the Second Avenue Line connect into the J/M/Z? It would have to cross the lead to the Willy B and the Chrystie Street B/D/Q connector somewhere. Looks like it ought to connect at the corner of Kenmare and Centre, but don't know the terrain or as-built conditions down there. Probably a non-trivial challenge; you need a bunch of flyovers and flyunders to offer best flexibility while avoiding level crossings across a four-track run.
As for the 2 Ave, It would be nice too if they would use the soon to be abandoned tracks at Canal, and some how use the current Queens bound platform at Chambers, I gues it would then have to merge with the JMZ for Fulton & Broad, or even more fantasy: Send the M to 6th Avenue to solve the problem of too many trains, and terminate the J/Z at Chambers. Have the new 2nd Ave take over the to Brooklyn traffic. The M gets little use down there, and ending the J at Chambers is only two stations short, maybe some sort of across the platform change at Chambers to the southbound 2nd Ave trains. Chambers has plenty of room, it would just have to be reconfigured a little.
"As for the 2 Ave, It would be nice too if they would use the soon to be abandoned tracks at Canal, and some how use the
current Queens bound platform at Chambers,..."
That is certainly a realistic possibility. MTA engineers have stated as much.
Tunnelling in the financial district, will be much more expensive, per mile, than the rest of the line. Here is where commuters, the borough president's staff, the MTA, (and all of us by phone and mail) have to decide what is really important down there and what we think we can pay for.
I served on the task force until I moved to Philly. Glad to see they're making progress.
"As for the 2 Ave, It would be nice too if they would use the soon to be abandoned tracks at Canal, and some how use the
current Queens bound platform at Chambers,..."
That is certainly a realistic possibility. MTA engineers have stated as much.
That would be currently unused tracks & Canal platforms on the J/M/Z?
I served on the task force until I moved to Philly.
Were you an MTA employee, an insider of some kind or just an interested citizen? How does one get onto such Task Forces?
That would be currently unused tracks & Canal platforms on the J/M/Z?
All platforms at Canal are currently in use.
It seems like a good idea. There is the extra capacity and space. to use the Nassau line, and it would keep costs down. And the Nassau line is very underutilized anyway currently.
When the Houston-Second Ave. station for the F train was originally built, I believe the plan was to run the eventual (or mythical, depending on your point of view) Second Ave. subway above the four tracks coming from Sixth Ave and heading towards Brooklyn. But when the Chrystie St. connection was built, the tracks for the B and D trains, along with the track coming from Essex St to B'way-Lafayette that the KK used, were built on that level so they could fly over the Brooklyn-bound F train's tracks. The Essex St.-bound track the KK uses smimply splits off from the F tracks at the same level, and then goes under the B/D tracks between Houston and Rivington Sts.
With three of those four new tracks only one level below ground, the only way to run the Second Ave. tracks above the Houston St. F/V station would be to angle them slightly east of the B/D tracks on Chrystie and beneath Sara Delano Roosevelt Park. That would mean the Houston St. station for the Second Ave. line would have to be either all north of Houston or all south of Houston, or you would have a curve in the station that might require gap fillers. Also, if the tracks are one level below the street a link up with the J/M/Z tracks would be tougher, since they would have to cross over the old Chrystie St. KK tracks and then drop down to meet the J/M/Z at Delancey before entering the Bowery station.
The MTA could re-re-configure the Nassau Loop in the future, so that the J/M/Z would use the south side (Williamsburgh-bound) platform at Bowery, while the Second Ave. line would use the north side (Chambers-bound) platform That would actually make more sense under the currently planned re-cofiguration, since those would be the tracks that would become the through tracks to Nassau Street and Brooklyn, and a Second Ave. train to DeKalb and south is more logical than running the M train there. The tracks used by the J/M/Z under this arrangement would terminate at Chambers.
But the engineering would be a lot easier if the Second Ave. line was three levels below ground, because it could then go under the B/D and the old KK tracks and come up to meet the J/M/Z tracks west of the Bowery station, before the tracks turn onto Centre Street. That would mean no Second Ave. stop between Canal-Centre and Houston-2nd Ave., but it would allow the Second Ave. line to either use the soon-to-be-abandoned east side platform at Canal or the west side platform, or to reconfigure the line again so that Second Ave. would either use the inner or outer tracks on both platforms, in a standard four-track platform arrangement that would allow either the Second Ave. or the J/M/Z trains to continue on to Broad Street or Brooklyn.
There MUST be something in the existing system under Houston to accomodate a 2nd Av line. Anyone know exactly what it is? Would it allow easy switching of 2nd Av trains into the Rutgers St line?
My view of the cheapest, most effective solution is to send part of the 2nd Av line service to the Rutgers line, with the remainder of the service going down Centre and to Brooklyn (one presumes the all of the involved station platforms can be lengthened to 600 feet; if not, then the Water St routing is the only way to go). The Chrystie St. connection would be brought back into use.
The virtue of this is that all 2nd Av trains would be thru to Brooklyn, which would not be the case with Water St. routing. The Centre St. option would allow only 50% of the trains to go to Brooklyn. Additional service via Rutgers, then, makes perfect sense.
30 tph on the Culver line would certainly provoke some new construction on it, perhaps a connection to the Brighton line via Prospect Park.
NO their is not to my knowledge any provision for a connection to the Rutgers line at Houston/2nd ave. What is there is believed to be an open box space for tracks to pass under the current Mezzabibe and above the travks/platforms in service.
I spent some time walking around staring there in early Sept. That was my station in 66-70 but back then I had no knowledge of Second System provisions although I had noticed the Utica/Fulton oddity. When I lived there, there were several boarded off stairways to the mezz at the 1s Ave end. These have been removed although you can easily see evidence of the locations. AFAIK, those stairs were to lead to the mezz to facilitate access to the planned uptown side of the Second Ave Line. In turn at the Second ave end you can see in the ceiling arrangement from the platforms, a lowered area for transverse trackways.
As to the 'best' plan for the line, IMHO a FOUR track trunk is Sine Qua NON. The two track semi express plan will be sardined out te day it opens. On the south end, tieing some of it into the underutilised Nassau tracks is a good first pass. This should not rule out future routing to the east downtown or a new tunnel to Brooklyn. Again, IMHO the market is there, build it they will ride.
On the south end, tieing some of it into the underutilised Nassau tracks is a good first pass.
This should not rule out future routing to the east downtown or a new tunnel to Brooklyn.
How much spare capacity is there now in the Rutgers Tunnel? Are there other bottlenecks that would prevent using it for Second Ave service?
I suspect a new Brooklyn tunnel is out of the question. I'd much rather spend the money on a new Manhattan-Bronx tunnel so the Second Avenue line could take over the Dyre Avenue line and/or give Co-Op City the subway line it desperately needs.
Not that it's up to me ....
How much spare capacity is there now in the Rutgers Tunnel? Are there other bottlenecks that would prevent using it for Second Ave service?
The Rutgers St tube has been underutilized since at least the time the BMT/IND hookup via Grand St. occurred. As I recall, it's never been more than 15 or so tph; look at the trains they turn back at 2Av, all of which could easily be sent on to Brooklyn. The switching between express and local tracks on the 6th Av to get into the 53rd St system really does limit the capacity of the 6Av lines, and it's Rutgers that gets the short end. Once you're past 2nd Av going into E B'way, there's nothing obstructing the run into Brooklyn. Sending 2nd Av service via this underused East River tunnel makes compelling sense.
The Centre St line shares the Montague tube with the Broadway line. 15 tph from 2nd Avenue balances out what they plan for 2nd Ave.
Of course, they should build the 2Av as 4 tracks, at least into the 80s, but everything you read says they are not even considering it. Until and unless it is sent into the Bronx, I don't think it will have that much effect on the Lex.
The Rutgers/2nd Ave connection has been proposed by ridership advocates, and it has a 0% chance of being constructed. It'd be a waste of money, as Rutger St. tunnel service can be vastly increased by merely extending the V train to Church Ave.
It'd be a waste of money, as Rutger St. tunnel service can be vastly increased by merely extending the V train to Church Ave.
Different sets of people! F/V have only four stops difference between them. I'd *much* rather see a Second Avenue Subway run through Rutgers than both the F and V. Gives quicker access to Brooklyn for Harlem and UES riders without a change.
The market for service between the UES and Brooklyn is miniscule compared to the market for service from the UES to midtown or Wall Street or the market for service between Brooklyn and midtown or Wall Street. (And 2nd Ave and 42nd St doesn't fully qualify as midtown - too far east for most office workers).
Any direct train from the UES to Brooklyn that doesn't go either through midtown or the financial district (such as 2nd Ave to Rutgers) would make the G train look incredibly overcrowded by comparison.
A 2nd Ave train must have easy transfers to Brooklyn bound trains at 14th, Houston, and Chrystie Streets, but it needs to go down to Wall Street. A Water St route would be ideal but a Nassau St route would be 100 times better than not going to the financial district at all.
A 2nd Ave train must have easy transfers to Brooklyn bound trains at 14th, Houston, and Chrystie Streets, but it needs to go down to Wall Street. A Water St route would be ideal but a Nassau St route would be 100 times better than not going to the financial district at all.
Well, I wasn't proposing that ALL 2nd Ave trains go through Rutgers. But you're right; the main traffic is north-south.
2nd Ave and 42nd St doesn't fully qualify as midtown - too far east for most office workers
Yes and no. There are a lot of office buildings on First and Second in the low and mid Forties (though the one I worked in, which was Robert Moses' last NYC project, was demolished for Trump's monolithic condo tower at First and 49th).
I've rather wondered whether a Second Avenue subway might lead to an eastward extension of midtown office towers in the 40s and 50s, at least to the west side of Second. There are some very expensive townhouses in the side streets around there, but I bet there are also potential development sites whose value increases if there's a subway entrance to the UES within 2 or 3 blocks.
I agree. I prefer the Water St route myself.
True, but the millions of $$$ spent to do this would be wasteful when simply extending the V increases service. Transit money is sparse, lets spend it wisely.
The Rutgers/2nd Ave connection has been proposed by ridership advocates, and it has a 0% chance of being constructed. It'd be a waste of money, as Rutger St. tunnel service can be vastly increased by merely extending the V train to Church Ave.
If the Centre-Nassau-Broad St alignment is chosen (and it seems to be the cheapest of the alternatives), they would have to cut into it at Delancey and Chrystie St. The plan for the Water St. alignment 4-tracks the existing Grand St. Station; cutting into Delancey precludes this option -- there would be NO transfer to 2nd Av trains coming from the ManBridge, tho' there would be one at DeKalb.
Whatever is done at Delancey/Chrystie, it would seem to be relatively easy to provide for 6Av service downtown and potentially thru the Montague tube to Brooklyn, along with 2Av service. The remainder of the 2Av service would obviously go to Brooklyn via the Bridge, and the costs of a connection to Rutgers would become difficult to justify, tho' 2nd Av service at Jay St. is of *obvious* utility.
A 6Av connection to downtown is of obvious merit. It would relieve some of the transfer-crush to the Lex at CitiCorp, tho' to what extent I don't know.
I doubt people going all the way downtown from Queens would transfer at Lex and 53rd. It's a long grind on the local, which only goes to BB anyway, or else you have to transfer again to the express.
Pre-9/11, it was quicker to take the E to WTC. Other choices for Queens to downtown include taking the E or F to W 4th and transferring to the A or C to Bway-Nassau, taking the R to Lex and transferring to a downtown express, taking the F to 34th and transferring to the N/R, and others I'm not thinking of right now.
I doubt people going all the way downtown from Queens would transfer at Lex and 53rd. It's a long grind on the local, which only goes to BB anyway, or else you have to transfer again to the express.
I'd disagree. Remember from Lex-53rd/51st, it's just one stop on the 6 to Grand Central and then a cross-platform transfer to the 4/5. It's only 4 stops to Wall Street from there, and the IRTs run frequently. Back when I was using those trains, I used to see a lot of cross-platform transferring.
Sure, lots of cross-platform from the 6 to the 4/5 at GCT. But how many of those originated on Queens Blvd, then changed to the 6 at 53rd? It just doesn't make sense to take 3 trains when you can take 2. The 4/5 downtown aren't even that fast at rush hour: they back up trying to get past the moving platform at 14th St.
Sure, lots of cross-platform from the 6 to the 4/5 at GCT. But how many of those originated on Queens Blvd, then changed to the 6 at 53rd? It just doesn't make sense to take 3 trains when you can take 2.
Well, it's more like two and a half as cross-platform transfers are (to me anyway) much easier to do than up a staircase, across some kind of mezzanine or lobby, down another stair ... etc.
The real drawback to this route is the incredibly lengthy Lex-53 to 51st route, esp. incoming when you have to come up the escaltor, through the passage, down the stairs, under the tracks, and back up the stairs.
Of course, we can argue all night. The disadvantage to not having any exit swipes on MetroCard is that the TA doesn't really KNOW where its trips end, only where they begin. Must make transit planning MUCH harder if you don't know where they're going ....
If they build it to four tracks, are they at least going to build it in such a way that would allow for 2 tracks to be added later as need or money arises?
As far as I know, there is no provision for 2nd Ave trains to connect with the F line. The 2nd Ave line is supposed to connect to the line at Grand on the B and D line. If not physically then at least a transfer for customers.
The original Chrystie St. line was meant for 2nd Ave trains to access the BMT.
I knew that!
OK, now some other people know it!
lol
I didn't make Peggy's trip on Sunday, partly because I was too lazy to leave the house at 5:30 AM on a Sunday to make the 9 AM start. I've been looking for a post describing the trip, but haven't seen one. Did I miss the thread?
I don't believe there was a thread, but there was a field trip. We started at Park Place and finished at 242nd Street with stops at several stations on the line where we examined subway art, viewed subway yards, and saw where there had been double-decker elevators. Perhaps we can coax Peggy out to supply more details.
I would be very interested to hear about the double decker elevators. I saw on a post about the trip that they were at 168 and 181. At 181 I can see where they may have had an opening on the platform level to allow access to the elevators, but I don't see any evidence of where they were at 168. Also, how did they load/unload at the top?????????
My mom once worked in a building with double decker elevators. When the elevator would stop, a "serving other deck" light would come on if the doors didn't open when it stopped.
The Citicorp (er, excuse me, Citigroup) Building has 'em.
--Mark
The Citicorp (er, excuse me, Citigroup) Building has 'em.
That's interesting. I was just there for the first time a couple of weeks ago (to see the model train layout) and I was wondering why the elevator bank had a sign saying "Even Floors Only".
The elevator bank above or below you (not sure) would have the second deck serving odd floors. If the elevator stopped on an even floor and no one was getting on or off at an odd floor, the desk serving the odd floors would have a message saying "upper (lower) deck being served").
It was always very interesting going from 36 to 41 ... sometimes the elevator would work properly, other times I'd be "treated" for a ride to the lobby ....
--Mark
There's a couple other prominent skyscrapers that also have/had double-deck elevators:
Sears Tower in Chicago (Express elevators that serve 2-story skylobbies on levels 33-34 and 66-67. Local elevators are single-deck.)
World Trade Center (Rest in peace. Express elevators only, similar to the Sears Tower configuration, if I'm not mistaken.)
Amoco Building (Local elevators, serving alternate floors in even/odd pattern.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
at 168 there are two crossovers which are in the form of bridgesd over the tracks. The one that is closer to 242 is the one which needs careful examination.
If you will use this crossover from the downtown side to the uptown and just before you step down to where you go left or right look at the area over the landing, shielding your eyes from the lights and you can see the scissor gates.While not sure, if you will go down either set of steps and look at the wall tile, you can see where they dont match- this was the location.
As far as Peggy posting more info, she was on vacation so please be patient! I allow Peggy to use my computer and with over 700 e-mails to sort through it was big project.
OK; I'll bite :)
The trip began at Park Place, where Gary and Roseanne Wengeroff, David J. Greenberger, Interborough, KMA, Frank Caliendo, and two others whose names I forget met tour guide Peggy Darlington at 9:00. At the WTC complex, the Oculus is mostly hidden by a black sheet over the glass separating it from the paid area; the passage where it resides is closed to the public. We made a stop on the A/C platform to lean over and observe the wall where the glass doors leading from the E to the shopping concouse once were.
The first stop on the line was Houston, were Peggy pointed out the "Platform Diving" mosaics, which illustrate platforms and subway cars infiltrated by marine life. The artwork also provides absolute proff that Redbirds ran on the 1 ;)
Next stop was Christopher St/Sheridan Sq. Like most of the stations on the West Side IRT south of Times Square, Christopher St has been recently renovated with a "skin job;" that is, the old white tile has been covered over with new tile, while the original station name tablets and Squire Vickers mosaics have been cleaned. A skin job is easy to identify, because the original tilework is recessed in the new tile. The artwork in this station is titled "The Greenwich Village Murals" and was designed by students at PS 41.
The next noteworthy station is 34 St, although Peggy pointed out a quirk at 23rd: the platform is painted bare concrete, rather than tiled. At 34th, we saw the blue plywood wall where Sbarro's "railfan windows" were, a victim of ADA compliance (this is where the platform elevators will be installed), and small ceramic mosaics of animals.
A decent amount of time was spent exploring the renovations at Times Square. including the new Jacob Lawrence mosaic on the IRT mezzanine and another large mosaic over the BMT stairways. Elevators in the BMT "ellipse" are almost complete. Long-term closure of the main entrance on the south side of 42 St between Broadway and 7 Ave began the morning of our trip.
After a quick rest stop in the Port Authority Bus Terminal, we took a look at renovations on the IND platform, where loose tiles were being removed from the walls, and workers were sawcutting the local side of the downtown platform. Debris was being loaded onto flatcars parked on the local tracks; the MOW consist was headed by two locos and an R-14 rider car.
50 St is an older renovation; the original tilework has been removed, and new station name tablets do not match the old. The original tablets still exist near the fare control. The artwork in this station is entitled "Alice: The Way Out" and depicts characters from Alice in Wonderland.
66 St has been beautifully restored, and the station name tablets could be mistaken for 1904 originals, save for one glaring detail: the new tablets read "66TH ST LINCOLN CENTER." Lincoln Center opened in 1962. The new "66" number plaques feature a stylized "LC" in the background.
86 St retains its early 1960s look; however, small pieces of ceramic artwork, one of them depicting the 72 St stationhouse, have been installed.
Next, we boarded an "upside-down 13" train to 96 St. Street entrances lead to disused side platforms; island platforms are accessed via crossunders. Iron fencing blocks off most of the northbound side platform, save for a passage to the restrooms, which are locked.
To be continued...
Obviously, that should have begun, "The trip began at Park Place, where Gary and Roseanne Wengeroff, David J. Greenberger, Interborough, KMA, Frank Caliendo, myself, and two others whose names I forget..."
Thanks for your response, so far. It sounds like a worthwhile trip (as anticipated).
And I didn't even get to the good parts :). I'll try to post a sequel later today, unless someone else wants to take over.
[Next ... 96 St. Street entrances lead to disused side platforms; island platforms are accessed via crossunders. Iron fencing blocks off most of the northbound side platform, save for a passage to the restrooms, which are locked.]
Did you see the Tower at the North end of the platform on the dowtown side ? (it's on the West unused platform).
For many years I would run across the platform from a downtown local, peer down the line to see if a express was coming or had just left, then run back to the local before the doors closed.
Did you notice the underground yard after 137th ? Years ago trains were turned at 137th, the center track was a relay track.
Mr rt__:^)
Did you see the Tower at the North end of the platform on the dowtown side ? (it's on the West unused platform).
Yes, from the uptown side. Due to time considerations, we didn't venture onto too many downtown platforms. Of course we peered out the windows to see the "yard" trackage at 137 (and the station at 91) :).
I also forgot to mention another tower, at the north end of 168(?) St. It's on a crossover, accessed from either platform by a narrow staircase. The structure is probably a later addition, as half of a name tablet is hidden behind the staircase on the downtown side.
Part 3 and photos to come, eventually.
There you go, 91st is where Steff was first assigned, but he told the supervisor that he would need a left handed monkey wrench to get in the booth.
Mr rt__:^)
That's not such a bad assignment; I hear it's a pretty low-volume station ;)
There is no tower of any sort at any of the deep stations on the 1 line.
Yes there is, although it's apparently not in everyday use. It's at the far north end of the station at 168, suspended over the tracks. It's accessed via a staircase from the SB platform (and I believe another staircase from the NB platform). (If that's not a tower, maybe you could tell us what it is.)
I don't know what it is, but I do know it ain't a tower.
track storage space, anyone?
track storage space, anyone?
....got another one just like it
at 149-GC on the 2/5 lines... go look
and report back what you see...
Peggy had pointed out that it's only used for the occasional GO when trains are turning in the area. It was locked and not in use the day of our trip.
Peggy, are you reading this? <g>
I checked with Peggy. She told me the source was track workers and track worker supervisors in the area and a station supervisor in the area. The tower is used only when a G.O. requires use regular use of the crossover from Downtown to Uptown in the tunnel north of the station.
Good post! I wish I could have come. Peggy told me all about the trip and told me to emphasize 125 which is not an el. IF you will walk beneath the structure you can see the arched bridge and the station is on the bridge.
Thanks! Be sure to let us know when Peggy's photos are ready.
e-mail Peggy off site for info on obtaining a CD of the trip.
I've used that tower to help me decide whether to take the first local or to wait for the express. That can't be done now, since trains from Lenox can be either express (3) or local (2). Besides, I think a few bulbs need replacement; trains seem to vanish only to reappear a station or two down the line.
Excellent synopsis. Some comments:
The first stop on the line was Houston, were Peggy pointed out the "Platform Diving" mosaics, which illustrate platforms and subway cars infiltrated by marine life. The artwork also provides absolute proff that Redbirds ran on the 1 ;)
Mutant Redbirds, that is. Too many windows.
A decent amount of time was spent exploring the renovations at Times Square. including the new Jacob Lawrence mosaic on the IRT mezzanine and another large mosaic over the BMT stairways.
The Jacob Lawrence mosaic was the one at the BMT ellipse. I don't know who did the large one in the IRT mezzanine, but I like it.
86 St retains its early 1960s look; however, small pieces of ceramic artwork, one of them depicting the 72 St stationhouse, have been installed.
There's also one of an RTS on the M104 and one of the 96th Street station with a Redbird 2.
Next, we boarded an "upside-down 13" train to 96 St. Street entrances lead to disused side platforms; island platforms are accessed via crossunders.
The south street entrances, between 93rd and 94th, lead to a typical mezzanine one level above the island platforms. Evidence of the platform extension is apparent in a seam in the floor.
The Jacob Lawrence mosaic was the one at the BMT ellipse. I don't know who did the large one in the IRT mezzanine, but I like it.
Whoops... I pass through every day, and I'm getting the mosaics mixed up.
There's also [artwork at 86 St] of an RTS on the M104 and one of the 96th Street station with a Redbird 2.
Not to mention the tile of a homeless man sleeping on Broadway...
The south street entrances, between 93rd and 94th, lead to a typical mezzanine one level above the island platforms. Evidence of the platform extension is apparent in a seam in the floor.
Also, the columns change from round to I-section.
Part 2.
At 125 St, we emerged from underground... or rather, the ground dropped out from under us.
The line, supported by a cantilevered structure, remains relatively level while the surface
of Manhattan drops down to approx. 170' below it. The station house retains its wooden
floors, and the platform canopy is wood covered in metal, though the metal is missing in
several places. 1/9 strip maps are still posted on the platform. The group made a brief
stop here to examine the structure from below, including evidence of closed portions of the
station house.
168 St, the next station visited on our tour, is, in my opinion, the grandest in the system.
The platforms are still lit by ornamental mercury-vapor fixtures, and there is evidence of
the chandeliers which once hung from the high-arched ceiling. Platform extensions are made
obvious by their IND-style tilework and change in the tunnel roof. Double0decker elevators
were once located at the east end of one crossover; the lower level has been walled and
tiled over, and grillework is in place where the doors for the upper level were. The shaft
is now used for ventilation, the cars having been removed quite some time ago; however,
several pigeons appeared to be waiting for a ride in the upper cab.
181 and 191 are similar to 168: high vaulted ceilings with flatter, IND-esque extensions and
traces of long-vanished double-decker elevators. 181 features a small shopping concourse
outside fare control. The IRT station name tablets are in two distinct styles; one has
"GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE" directly below "181ST STREET" in a blue field surrounded by a
green border, while the other has "GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE" below "181ST STREET" outside
the border. The two styles alternate along the platform wall. As we were about to leave
the station, a "customer" ran down to the downtown platform, sprayed a 4' high tag on the
underside of a staircase, and ran back up the stairs. 191 St, the deepest in the system, is
in desperate need of renovation. Most of the mosaic name tablets have been covered over
with standard white-on-black signage.
The group opted to get some fresh air and exercise and walk down Fort George Hill to Dyckman
St. Attractions along the way included mission-style apartment houses on Wadsworth Avenue
and a rather bucolic view of the side of the hill we were on not too long before.
At Dyckman Street, the subway emerges from the hillside, and the station platforms are at
grade. The Broadway el begins at the north end of this station. Our next stops were 207
and 215 Sts to glipmse reef-ready "Deadbirds" in the 207 St yard.
225 St, the first station north of the Broadway Bridge, was next to be explored, followed by
a short walk to the Marble Hill Metro North station for views of the bridge.
Last stop, 242 St. The terminal has two island platforms and two disused side platforms,
which, oddly enough, are not blocked off. Broadway is ~150 feet wide at this point, and the
el only covers the southbound lanes; a covered pedestrian walkway extends to the east side
of the street.
Although this was the end of the scheduled tour (and close to five hours after we departed
Park Place), the day was just beginning. Stay tuned...
Mike
Don't keep us hanging waiting for part 3
It was bad enough I could not make it.
Sorry this took so long; I haven't SubSquawked for a while...
It's 1:48 P.M., you have an unlimited-ride Metrocard, a knowlegeable tour guide, and nothing in particular planned for the rest of the day. Naturally, the only logical thing to do is to keep riding!
The Wengeroffs had already left Burger King, so it was down to a core group of five for the ride back on the 1. At 168 St, Interborough and his friend stayed on the 1, while Peggy, David, and I headed for the IND. We caught an R-32 GE car (#3880-1) for our ride to 145 St, where Peggy showed us four sure ways to spot a staircase that has been removed. At 125 St, David and I were put to the challenge of finding the "ghost stairs" on our own :).
We spent a considerable amount of time exploring 81 St and its elaborate art installation, For Want of a Nail, a joint project between the MTA and the Museum of Natural History. The platform walls feature reliefs of fossils, and there are small mosaics of brightly-colored present day animals that give way to grey silhouettes of their prehistoric ancestors. An animals whose ancestry is unknown sports a red question mark. Floor-to-ceiling murals in the stairways depict marine life (a recurring theme, apparently; see Platform Diving at Houston St, the SUBmerged poster, and the fate of the carbon-steel IRT fleet) and a map of the stars, part of which is etched into a glass covering.
From 81 St, we hopped on a C train to get to the staple of SubTalk field trips, the Franklin Ave Shuttle. From there, we transferred to the 2 at Botanic Garden, on R-142 #6688! Side LCDs were off, and only the top left and bottom left LEDs on the interior signs were blinking. At one stop, instead of the doors going "ding-dong" before closing, it went, "dong [pause] ding!"
We got off at Nevins to see [a solid door leading to] the unused lower-level platform. We also noticed, in addition to the column location (e.g., to paraphrase, "NEVINS ST SOUTH PLATFORM), "FULTON ST & FLATBUSH AVE" was cast into some of the columns. We took the next to, running express up the east side, to Bowling Green, where Peggy pointed out the Shuttle platform, now barricaded by a blue plywood wall because of asbestos abatement. Thanks to congestion, the train dwelled in the station long enough for us to get off, tour, and get back on.
Peggy headed home at Grand Central, while David and I decided to continue up to the Bronx to catch another Redbird 5 express ride down the west side. Another GO had the 4 replaced by a shuttle bus from 149 to 125. Naturally, before transferring to the 5, we checked out the downtown 4 platform to see how many people were waiting for a train that wasn't coming until 5:00 A.M. Monday; there were about a dozen.
After nearly ten hours - more riding than I typically do in one week, let alone a day - it was time to go home. A huge thank you to Peggy for leading this trip; I had a great time and learned quite a bit.
Photos (and familiar-looking text) here.
From 81 St, we hopped on a C train to get to the staple of SubTalk field trips, the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
That would have been an impressive move, seeing as the C was running express that weekend. Rather, we hopped on a D train.
A huge thank you to Peggy for leading this trip; I had a great time and learned quite a bit.
Absolutely. Thank you, Peggy!
Thanks for a great report. Wish I could have been there.
Simon
Swindon UK
Yeah I would've gone but I'd also have to leave real early to get there, plus the chance of snow didn't help.
Where there's a WILL... there's a WAY.
I would have gone but I didn't finish work until 3AM do to that nice joy ride I had on the No.2 Line with a No.4 train.
........PART 3 anyone?
Randy Kennedy's Tunnel Vision column in today's Times is about the late former Transit Authority Chaplain who was known to handle a subway train on occaision.
Does anyone else get it? I love it, I was just curious of other people's opinions of it.
It's a trade journal. In other words, don't look to it as a big source of railfan type info. You'll see a LOT of advertising. Rarely if ever is something negative displayed, unless it was to show how some system dealt with a rpoblem and then pats themsevles on the shoulder for doing so.
My school library has current and back issues dating back to 1990. I read many of them. I think it's a good magazine, lots of neat info about the behind the scenes stuff.
I used to read it. Where is it published these days?
I got a free subscribtion from the website Ive been getting it for about a year now. I'll find the link again and spread the word.
Thanks
yo playland you got the link? cause i think i deleted it.
BTW to eveyrone else, at the site which i will provide one can get free subscriptions for all sorts of things, i get Law enforcement magazine, but I get it kinda officially. If you want mass transit mag just put down what I put for Job position : MTA supervisor
the address label on the mag says my First, Last Name, Address, blah blah and on top it say "MTA SUpervisor"
My take on the mag is that it is a very good trade publication overall. BUT, alot of the articles are transit 'backslapping' pieces or some interview with a transit executive explaining how he/she dealt with a particular issue or large-scale undertaking.
The photos of R/T and or bus equipment is almost always quite good, despite the lack of rail & bus fan-friendly articles.
The average buff will find MassTransit boring if they are not into the 'infrastructure' issues related to the topic.
BMTman
Obviously, infrastructure is important to people who run transit systems. And to us riders, too.
Please note that trade journals are not "backslapper central" per se. There are many which print critical articles and report bad news as well as good news.
"BUT, alot of the articles are transit 'backslapping' pieces
or some interview with a transit executive explaining how he/she dealt with a particular issue or large-scale undertaking."
Don't confuse the first with the second, though. The second kind of piece you mention can be very useful in disseminating ideas about how to solve problems. And if a problem was solved, certainly the people who solved it deserve kudos.
I find the feaure articles boring, because they are more about the finances than the actual system. And yes, it is mostly interviews with executives, who all say the same thing.
"I find the feaure articles boring, because they are more about the finances than the actual system."
I find that as interesting as the physical aspects of the system. And vital. No $$$, no transit.
" And yes, it is mostly
interviews with executives, who all say the same thing."
You're not reading very attentively. But that's OK. If you find it boring, read something else.
I agree with your points, I'm only saying MassTransit isn't for everyone in our hobby.
P.S., I'm a subscriber.
BMTman
Agreed.
It's better than Metro (a (bus) trade magazine thay doesn't know an R44 to a R9).
i'll check it out, interesting. sometimes its fun to poke at stupidity
I get both Mass Transit & Metro, and probally get more out of them then others in this group because I'm employed by a bus company.
Mass Transit has been featuring a system a month, e.g. NYC, Boston, Miami, etc. I've found those that have rapid transit operations more interesting then those with just bus routes, because "I just work for a bus company" ... that's what I say to BusTalkers who don't understand why I don't know or am not interested in lots of detail about buses & bus operations.
Mr rt__:^)
where do i get it?
i'll post the link soon. As soon as i find it again
www.masstransitmag.com
Point your browsers at:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-08/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-137546.asp
Also, there is an accompanying graphic you can click on once you get there.
I'm glad to hear that an improved transportation infrastucture is a primary goal for the planners! I heard about this on the news this morning, and hoped that I could find more detailed plans. Thank you Ron.
It never made sense to me that the E, N/R, and 1/9 were not connected when the WTC was built. Short-sighted I guess. I think it's a great idea to have an east-west hub in that area.
The article mentioned the possiblility of an LIRR connection. What line would this be, and where would it come from?
The only reservation I've had about the plans that have been discussed is about the spending of $200M+ to build a temporary PATH station. Is there really that much of a need to spend that money on a station that will only be used for 2-3 years? Is there really that much damand for a station until there are new buildings in the area for those commuters to go to? Doesn't the midtown PATH line and the WTC line originate very close to each other? I just feel like we should spend that money on something permanent, especially when Bush stated that the US will have a budget deficit for the next few years. Of course, nobody saw that coming back in 2000... :-)
Not to mention the fact that congress has been fairly scrooge-like with the money that was promised to NYC for the recovery.
To sum up though, I am in full support of a mojor public transportation hub at the new WTC!
Well, PATH needs a safe station downtown for its trains. We can't afford to be without PATH service for 5 years. Why the price tag? Don't know. Maybe that's the cumulative cost of pumping out the tunnel and rebuilding a temporary terminal.
Don't sweat it too much, though. You're talking about insurance and FEMA money, so there's not a whole lot to "save." That's money that, if not spent, ends up in somebody ese' pocket outside NY. Better to spend it than lose it.
The article mentioned the possiblility of an LIRR connection. What line would this be, and where would it come from?
That's my only question. Otherwise, this article more or less confirms my summary from a few days ago.
I assume they're discussing plans like those outlined by the MTA to connect the LIRR to the financial district. But it doesn't look like those are very far along at all ... how real is this? AND, could any of these POSSIBLY be implemented in less than 15 years?
Of course, simply incorporating a station shell or other provisions into the WTC site or this entire mega-complex would be a huge advantage 'cause it would give a focal point for future development, advocacy and funding.
The only reservation I've had about the plans that have been discussed is about the spending of $200M+ to build a temporary PATH station. Is there really that much of a need to spend that money on a station that will only be used for 2-3 years?
The havoc wreaked on local transit patterns by the closing of the downtown half of PATH needs to be addressed *ASAP*. I've seen the two-block-long lines to get into PATH at Christopher Street. It ain't pretty. And, frankly, reopening ASAP will give the PA breathing room to do the new mega-hub properly.
Is there really that much damand for a station until there are new buildings in the area for those commuters to go to?
There are still hundreds of thousands of people who work downtown. Many of them still live in NJ. Certainly the loss of 10 million sq ft of office space left a major hole in employment, but downtown is very far from a ghost town.
Doesn't the midtown PATH line and the WTC line originate very close to each other?
You can get to either one from certain points in PATH, but they are two entirely separate and distinct destinations.
Not only is downtown busy now, but many of the buildings adjacent to the WTC are still in the process of being cleaned up and are ready now but not yet re-occupied or will be occupied in April or so.
The terorists only destroyed 12 million square feet out of 80 million, and that's only the commercially available space; it doesn't even count the municipal square footage (though those folks mostly don't live in Jersey).
To reopen a thread that I've never heard a good answer for, what's stopping the E terminal at Chambers from reopening? Municipal workers from Queens could sure use it reopened.
Various posts, as well as pictures in this site, suggest that the station got a lot of dirt but no real damage. And you can definitely have large numbers exit from that station without setting foot onto the WTC site - there are other exits, some of which are now accessible from above by pedestrians without special permits.
If my read on things is accurate, at least 50% of the lost office space will be coming back within 5 years. In 10 years, you'd never know anything was missing (except for the memorial to remind you). So revitalized transit downtown is crucial.
Thanks for the link to your previous posting. I missed that over the weekend.
I've seen the two-block-long lines to get into PATH at Christopher Street. It ain't pretty. And, frankly, reopening ASAP will give the PA breathing room to do the new mega-hub properly.
I guess I didn't realize what a mess that is. I just assumed that most of the riders of PATH WTC worked at the WTC, didn't think about Wall Street, the Financial Center, and the other office spaces. (I'll drink my coffee before my first post of the day next time...)
IRT: New three-track 10-car S Ferry terminal, perhaps retaining existing 5-car turnaround loop as well.
(From WTC transit: likely & possible (long-ish)Posted by JV on Sat Jan 5 12:12:38 2002)
I hope this becomes a reality. That station should have been expanded when they started running 10 car trains through there. I hope they keep the gap fillers. Just a cool historical item.
The LIRR Connection Would Extend West From Atlantic Avenue Terminal under Atlantic Avenue (See recently discovered Atlantic Avenue Tunnel On Mr Diamond's Website) then a new tunnel under the east river and to WTC.
The LIRR Connection Would Extend West From Atlantic Avenue Terminal under Atlantic Avenue (See recently discovered Atlantic Avenue Tunnel On Mr Diamond's Website) then a new tunnel under the east river and to WTC.
How far along in the MTA planning process is this? The website just shows it as a "concept" ... and SubTalk is full of concepts.
How real? Any preliminary engineering work? Anyone got MTA inside info?
Hi - relatively new poster here, but I read all the time.
I just read the article myself and I agree with the need for some sort of temporary measure to restore downtown PATH service. I remember taking PATH to work in summer 2000 to 23rd and that was usually standing-room-only starting in Hoboken. Now without downtown, I can only imagine the overcrowding. People most likely getting off at Christopher or 9th? The crowds waiting to get on in Hoboken? I used to have to wait 2 or 3 trains to get on back then. What's it like now? Hopefully with some sort of downtown temporary service, it will relieve some of the load (crowd-wise and even electrically with more trains) on the 33rd line.
Hopefully they can make the best of the worst... that is to say, take advantage of the (unfortunate) opportunity and create something that will do just as good a job if not, a better one than before the loss.
I think the budget deficit was very forseeable the moment that our President decided to give away billons and billions to his rich pals with his tax cut for the rich and his little PR game of sending out $300 checks. I think most Americans would rather see the money used to keep the budget balanced (expect the rich, since the money they are getting is, unlike low and middle class citizens, not piddling in size).
In the meantime, [PATH] will construct a temporary station with an entrance on Church St. that could be open in 18 months to two years.
How much you want to bet that 2 years after the "temporary" station is built, that it becomes permanant? PATH isn't going to spend all that money for a short lived station. Remember the "temporary" TSQ shuttle platform? It took a fire for the TA to build a permanant one.
How much you want to bet that 2 years after the "temporary" station is built, that it becomes permanant? PATH isn't going to spend all that money for a short lived station.
Disagree, completely. The PA, amazingly, seems to have "got religion" and understand that its mission is to improve transportation in the region.
AND, better transit will greatly increase the value of the buildings that are ultimately built on top of it.
I'm normally skeptical, but in this case I think it'll happen.
Also, by moving the station back to the old Hudson terminal location eventually they avoid interference with construction of whatever might happen inside the bathtub, whether memorial or buildings or both.
Also, the Hudson temrinal is a little higher. Saves on escalator expense and also time for each individual commuter. Presumably the temporary station won't have the full complement of escalators you'd want in a finished station.
Besides, a lot of this is insurance and FEMA money. If you don't spend it, it goes away.
The insurance money won't go away if unused, and can be used by the PA (or the TA, for that matter when they get their settlement for damages to the tunnels) for other projects.
CG
"The insurance money won't go away if unused, and can be used by the PA (or the TA, for that matter when they get their
settlement for damages to the tunnels) for other projects."
Only so long as the insurers and FEMA agree that those projects are relevant to recovery. Rebuilding the South Ferry line and rebuilding PATH is. Another project might not be.
FEMA money, yes. But insurance recoveries don't require rebuilding. It's simply a cash payment to make the PA or TA "whole". They can do with it what they want.
Yes, thank you. I stand corrected.
There will be a new transit hub. The only question is when and exactly what the final form will be.
When the WTC was designed in the 60's, transit was out. The only reason the PA built the PATH station was that New Jersey required them to do it. (PATH was the trade off for building the WTC that Rockefeller wanted.)
The only reason the PA built the PATH station was that New Jersey required them to do it. (PATH was the trade off for building the WTC that Rockefeller wanted.)
I know the only reason the WTC got built on the west side rather than at the foot of Wall Street was because the PA agreed to take over the bankrupt H&MRR. That RR owned the Hudson Terminal twin-towered office building, underneath which was the original station, that was torn down for part of the WTC site.
Are you saying NJ required the PA to build a *new* PATH station in the basement of the WTC?
I've never understood why the PA built the new PATH station rather than just expanding the old Hudson Terminal station. It wasn't covered in the book on the WTC that I read over the holidays ... anyone know?
Why did the PA build a new PATH station?
Under Austin Tobin, the PA hated anything that ran on rails. The fear, as once expressed by a PA official, was that "once they got PATH, the cancer would be in their body." By building a new station, they were able to charge a good portion of the expense for the WTC foundation to PATH, which meant that they had no money left for any expansion of PATH. There were some very interesting covenants in the PA bonds of the 60's that precluded spending PA funds in excess of a certain percentage of outstanding debt on PATH. In short, the idea was to sop up the entire capital available.
(I worked for the PA from 68 to 72.)
By building a new station, they were able to charge a good portion of the expense for the WTC foundation to PATH, which meant that they had no money left for any expansion of PATH.
Now THAT makes sense. Cool, and thanks for the explanation.
Care to hazard a guess as to whether the PA will keep the 1971 station loop operable even as they build a new station in the old Hudson Terminal location? I think it would be crazy to demolish it, though you probably have to put in a 3-D wye to get the trains uphill to the new location and keeping the lower level functional.
Not to belabor the subject but in post 305903 entitiled Elexplanation Please started by American Pig, someone is offering a postcard of that Washington St El in Boston on ebay.
In case anyone wants to at least see a different view of the structure.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1057122984
Strictly speaking, George Metesky, the "Mad Bomber" of the 1950s, wasn't a terrorist, since the intent of his bombings wasn't to hit civilians for a political aim, but he certainly frightened a lot of New Yorkers a half-century ago.
One of his most frightening attacks was a bomb placed on an IND train. Why, specifically, the IND? And not the BMT or IRT? To answer that question you need to know both Metesky's motive and an important piece of subway information.
Anyone?
Is it because the IND was built by the City of New York itself, not as a private company -- and he wanted to show the Citysomething?
By then the entire subway was under public ownership.
--Andrew
Do the R-1/9 or R-10 cars have a better place to hide something?
His bombs were designed to disrupt the "dastardly" acts of Con Edison. The IND was the only subway line at that time to use ConEd power.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winnuh!!!!
Would this gentleman be the one responsible for the IND bombing at 125th St in Nov 1960 that severely damaged an R-10 and killed a woman?
The details sound right except that Metesky was arrested in 1957. I don't recall another subway bombing in the era that killed someone. The FALN was active in the same frame, but I'm not sure they ever bombed the subway.
It's apparently not him then.
Cunningham & Dehart mention in their book that R-10 #3221 was "torn apart" by a bomb on Nov 16th 1960, on a southbound A train, at 125th St, and a woman on the train, above the bomb was killed.
#3221 was supposedly repaired and returned to service.
Nope ... it was FALN ...
Thank You!
I don't know what FALN stands for.
A terrorist organization in favor of Puerto Rican independence.
Fuerza A Liberation Nacionale de Puerto Rico ... they also bombed the Capitol in DC in the 1950's and several other spots. Terroristas ...
Thanks a lot! They were initials that I was unfamiliar with.
You're most welcome ... just one of several events in my days in fun city ...
They also staged an assassination attempt on President Truman while he was at Blair House. Truman was uninjured, but a Secret Service officer died during the ensuing gunfight.
And the FALN made a machine-gun attack on Congress in 1954 that wounded 5 lawmakers.
Yep ... correct ... whenever you have whackos of whatever political affiliation doing THEIR foaming on the storm door, you get TERRORISM. What happened at WTC is only DIFFERENT foamers, but lunatics who want to harm the innocent WHEREVER are COWARDS. Let ANY such people raise an army and face the army of opposition ... but when ANYONE takes their wrath out upon the innocent, then they shall pay the price of GOD. Even the Q'oran teaches this ...
But there be twisted political passions posing under the NAME of God who have repeatedly done attrocities. LoV ... Lo, Verily. Sorry, but God never meant for us to take life *so* seriously either. :)
But yes, FALN really BLEW the cause ... in all the votes among los Puretoriquenos (sorry, can't figure out how to do the "enyah") it's come close, but the legacy of FALN has defied statehood ever since.
Strictly speaking, George Metesky, the "Mad Bomber" of the 1950s, wasn't a terrorist, since the intent of his bombings wasn't to hit civilians for a political aim, but he certainly frightened a lot of New Yorkers a half-century ago.
One of his most frightening attacks was a bomb placed on an IND train. Why, specifically, the IND? And not the BMT or IRT? To answer that question you need to know both Metesky's motive and an important piece of subway information.
George Metesky originally was from Waterbury, Connecticut, where I lived until a few years ago. One day back in the mid-1970's, I went into a newsstand in downtown Waterbury to get something and saw a number of people with notepads and cameras, obviously newspaper people, and also a couple of TV news trucks parked outside. I gathered from the conversation that Metesky was being released from prison and was returning to Waterbury to move in with his sister. He apparently was travelling on one of the intercity buses that stopped at this newsstand. Not being particularly interested in the events - the bombings were before my time and I wasn't a rail or subway fan back then - I left before Metesky arrived.
If I recall correctly, he died not long after coming back to Waterbury.
Paul, Metesky was a Con Ed worker who -- as far as I recall -- was just a guy w/o any particular agenda. I think he was just bonkers which explains why he worked for Con Ed....;-D
BMTman
Paul, Metesky was a Con Ed worker who -- as far as I recall -- was just a guy w/o any particular agenda. I think he was just bonkers which explains why he worked for Con Ed....;-D
He had been injured while working for one of Con Ed's predecessors but had his disability claim rejected.
He was left with a breathing disorder because of an accident in a Con Ed plant and his Workman's Comp claim was denied.
We all know about disgruntled employees ("Going Postal") who return to their workplace and shoot it up, or loners who shoot up a fast food. But as savage as these are, these are culminating, dramatic events, that play themselves out in one big act.
What's sets Metesky apart is that noone could figure our the motive as the bombings mounted. He decided he could get even with Con Ed by bombing facilities that used Con Ed services (IND, movie theater, etc.). This meant almost everything in the City except the BMT and IRT. This is illogical, even for a warped mind.
He had an accident at the Con Edison plant where he worked and because of it got a breathing disorder and was denied workman's compensation. Whether this guy was a nut or not the fact that he got ripped off should be plain as the noses on your faces. When business treat their workers like pieces of raw meat it shouldn't be surprising when workers go off half cocked. The God-damn bottom line should not preclude management from putting their employees first.
Reading a little further, it is not certain that the accident caused his breathing difficulty--he may have contracted TB.
Be that as it may, even if Con Ed was 100% wrong, bombing innocent people (or even guilty people for that matter) is generally frowned upon. And you can't miss that his revenge was exceptionally weird--how could he possibly have thought that bombing things that used Con Ed electricity (including the subway train and a movie theater) could possibly punish Cod Ed in any way?
Ever measure the current draw on a 10 car R10 train? I'm sure the meter noticed. But yeah, mighty twisted logic ...
Right you are, BUT if Con Edison had treated this man decently this could have been avoided. No one in their right mind Paul would condone what this guy did. I just believe it could have been avoided if he was treated in a fair manner. These violent outbursts by disgruntled employees is happening more and more, and the bottom line is that it always seems the worker was being given the shaft when he let loose his anger. Let's face it, our history is not replete with management treating their employees in a dignified manner.
>>> if Con Edison had treated this man decently this could have been avoided <<<
What makes you think Con Edison did not treat him decently? The denial of a Workers Compensation claim is not done by the employer. It is done by the insurance carrier, with appropriate appeal rights. The fact that this worker had his claim denied and he believed the denial was unjust does not indicate that the employer did anything wrong, or that the denial was improper.
Tom
I read his first-person story in the Reader's Digest, back in the 60s as I recall. He hated ConEd. He wanted to get even.
You cannot trust little guys with big knowledge, and expect them to behave humbly when you screw them.
Lots of literature on the subject. Matetsky lived @ #17 4th St. in Waterbury, Ct. He worked for United Electric & Power which was 'absorbed' by Con Ed. He had an on the job accident and subsequently developed TB. He claimed that it was job related but it could not be proven and the claim was denied. Hence, his grudge against Con Ed.
Lots of literature on the subject. Matetsky lived @ #17 4th St. in Waterbury, Ct.
Interesting trivia point - Metesky did his bombings in NYC, where most of the streets and avenues are numbered, and lived on one of the only five numbered streets in Waterbury.
Here's a comic book cover from 1945 showing Captain America thwarting an attempt to rob an IND money train. Why the IND? Probably no reason. Or can anyone here think of one? The rendering is quite accurate for a comic book.
http://www.crosswinds.net/~testiculos/capam/CaptainAmerica48.jpg
Here's another comic book subway question. In the interior of another Captain America comic book (#3 from 1941) a subway kiosk is shown which says "BRT SUBWAY SYSTEM." Was BRT signage still existing at this late date?
Alan Glick
Here's another comic book subway question. In the interior of another Captain America comic book (#3 from 1941) a subway kiosk is shown which says "BRT SUBWAY SYSTEM." Was BRT signage still existing at this late date?
Through the '50s and part of tyhe '60s there were survivals of BRT signage. One example that comes to mind is that the tokens booth on the Broadway Line has little metal logo plates that said "Broadway BMT Subway." However, you could clearly so that an "M" was painted over an "R" on many of these. Wear away the paint and...
However, most of the signs on the Dual Contract lines for the BRT/BMT original said neither. They said MUNICIPAL RAILWAY which was later painted over to BMT LINES.
However, most of the signs on the Dual Contract lines for the BRT/BMT original said neither. They said MUNICIPAL RAILWAY which was later painted over to BMT LINES.
The scene in question was in Manhattan so it was a Dual Contract Kiosk. I guess they were just going on memory.
Alan Glick
Here's another comic book subway question. In the interior of another Captain America comic book (#3 from 1941) a subway kiosk is shown which says "BRT SUBWAY SYSTEM." Was BRT signage still existing at this late date?
Through the '50s and part of tyhe '60s there were survivals of BRT signage. One example that comes to mind is that the tokens booth on the Broadway Line had little metal logo plates that said "Broadway BMT Subway." However, you could clearly so that an "M" was painted over an "R" on many of these. Wear away the paint and...
However, most of the signs on the Dual Contract lines for the BRT/BMT original said neither. They said MUNICIPAL RAILWAY which was later painted over to BMT LINES.
Speaking of the Golden Age of comics and trains, I have a reprinted Wonder Woman story from 1945 or so where she (disguised as Diana Prince, of course) and boyfriend Steve Trevor are aboard the "20th Century Limited" from Chicago to New York (did that really exist?) In the Bronx it slows down to let a Westchester commuter train (New York Central?) pass it. That commuter train contains a criminal named "Sure-shot" Hogan, who tries to shoot Steve as they pass. Diana makes him duck, and soon superheroics ensue!
They don't make comics like they used to!
:-) Andrew
...aboard the "20th Century Limited" from Chicago to New York (did that really exist?)
It most certainly did. The train was the New York Central's flagship all-Pullman, extra-fare train from New York to Chicago, over the Water Level Route. It was the direct (and more successful) competition for the Pennsylvania Railroad's Broadway Limited. Both trains ran on the same schedule and ran side-by-side just outside of Chicago for quite some distance. I have ridden both, late in their glory days but before they hit bottom; most of my rides were on the Broadway but I've made two round trips on the Century as well. Mother preferred the PRR trains, with good reason I believe; while the service and accomodations were excellent either way, the Pennsy was just a little bit nicer and their menus were certainly more to our liking as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I had a good time (see other post) on Amtrak's Broadway Limited. Still had the old equipment too, and maintained fairly well.
But "on the Water Level Route you can sleep." ;-)
There certainly was a train by that name, but I don't remember its route.
I once rode the Broadway Limited when Amtrak was still running the old sleeper cars with the "sleeperette" bunk compartments. Tiny, but cute, and it was only one night till we got to Chicago.
This brings up the question of new-time terrorism.
Suppose someone commandeers a rush-hour train heading into Grand Central or some other large stop, and throws it into reverse or something like that (I think it's best to be deliberately vague on this) to derail it. That could easily kill hundreds, even thousands of people, not to mention take an entire route out of service for weeks or months, if done at the proper points. Stanchions could be taken out which would jeopardize the structural integrity of the station. Surely there are security measures in place, but someone with a little knowledge could easily avert them. (After all, on at least one occasion in recent history a drunk T/O can accidentally derail a train and kill a number of people, so a sober person intending to derail one could do a far more effective job.) If necessary, an accomplice could acquire yard access and make modifications (again, being vague) to the vehicle to be hijacked so the security measures will fail.
It's really scary. Even with all the security on commercial airliners, it's still easy enough to get control of a smaller plane and crash it into a building (done last week), a truck filled with some sort of hazardous material (which the 9/11 hijackers apparently were interested in), or a train which could be derailed to send it careening through a station.
Worse yet, there really isn't much that can be done security-wise to stop it. Maybe it can be made more difficult, but someone with the resources and the will could probably get around anything thrown in the way.
Worse yet, there really isn't much that can be done security-wise to stop it.
Makes those double-width cabs a little more palatable, doesn't it? Not sure if they're truly any more secure than the old ones, but they sure seem like it.
>>Makes those double-width cabs a little more palatable, doesn't it? Not sure if they're truly any more secure than the old ones, but they sure seem like it. <<
I'd think less so, since you could take a running start to slam into the cab.
(Of course, you might go all the way through and get dragged under the train if you try too hard. What a pity...)
I don't see why. Consider the R-62(A) transverse cab -- it's just the standard corner cab unfolded. The door and lock are identical. If anything, the removeable panel that functions as the wall to the left of the door might be susceptible to attack.
Suppose someone commandeers a rush-hour train heading into Grand Central or some other large stop, and throws it into reverse or something like that
Your imagination is working overtime. I'm pretty sure that if someone threw a train into reverse, even at 40 - 50 MPH you'd simply trip the overloads andd the train would lose power and coast to a stop.
Hmmm - are you implying there's NO way to derail a train? If not, I'm sure there's someone out there who'd figure it out and exploit it...
Even if some mechanical failure were needed, I'd imagine that could be arranged by having an accomplice "modify" the train ahead of time.
I am implying nothing of the sort. There are dozens of ways to derail a train. You just cannot do it by throwing the reverser. I think your pre-occupation with derailing a train is somewhat suspect. However, if you really want to see how it can be done, watch some old westerns and see how they accomplished derailing the iron horse.
You could do a WHOLE lot more damage with a *BUS* ... you may be comforted somewhat to know that if a terrorist threw the reverser, the train would probably just go dark and dump. With curve timers, you really wouldn't get up to enough speed to do more than peel a wall and maybe seriously injure a handful of people. I doubt anyone would try to pull a scenario like that, and as an additional assurance, trains do not carry combustibel fuel.
Now on the OTHER hand, someone trying to park a bus on Penn Station's escalator might do a whole lot more damage but damn ... that entrance is no longer available from the street. Even for a bus. About the best a terrorist could do is get people all worked up about things that aren't practical, no offense intended. FEAR is the fuel of terrorism.
However, you could take a bus and run it full speed northbound and downhill on Park Ave. across 42nd St. and into Grand Central. The north side sidewalk on 42nd St. in front of the terminal might be a good place to put some of those big concrete barriers they have outside the U.S. Capitol and White House in Washington.
Yeah, but again the issue is terrorizing as many as possible - and something of that scope would be like wrecking a subway train. Penny ante to the mindset. These clowns pull things like the WTC bombing, the WTC dropping and POSSIBLY the anthrax scare ... things that make EVERYBODY shaky ... I don't see them pulling something so *small* which would only make those who go through GCT nervous. Certainly not of the kind of scope that emptied all those airliners if you get the point I'm trying to make.
How many people are whacking out over the kid that flew his plane into the building in Tampa? Running a bus or a train into a terminal would have about the same impact. That ain't their game ...
Depends on what was in the bus, of course. Your run-of-the-mill NYCTA omnibus wouldn't do much structural damage, but if someone got a hold of a used bus and loaded the undercarriage down with some high explosives and ran that down Park Ave. towards 42nd, then you would have some major damage if it could get inside the terminal building.
Of course, you could also just fill beer and soda cans with the same explosives, roll a few out on the nation's highways and wait for the inevtiable can-crushing vehicle to arrive. Not as much damage in one shot, but more fear generated across the country, especially if the can was on a bridge or overpass...
Interesting concepts to be sure, and ones most folks who are in the "paranoia" realm have considered. I'm aware of several other "ideas" as well but would rather not put them out there where some moron like that kid in Florida would be inspired to do something stupid. Hope you can understand ... but seriously, aside from idiots, those ideas would not really appeal to someone with a motivation of "do the unexpected and do it in such a way that it'll scare people in every one horse town along with the victims" ... sorta like the several months where everybody, no matter where they lived, if they heard a plane, they dropped all other thoughts ... that's what terrorist types plan on doing, not the mundane ... I really think we should leave it there.
Terrorism is VERY logical although that logic defies most. Then you have your powdered letter writers and kids who think Osama Bin Shaved are kewl. I'd rather not feed THAT bear ...
Depends on what was in the bus, of course. Your run-of-the-mill NYCTA omnibus wouldn't do much structural damage, but if someone got a hold of a used bus and loaded the undercarriage down with some high explosives and ran that down Park Ave. towards 42nd, then you would have some major damage if it could get inside the terminal building.
Or use a propane tanker, you wouldn't need any high explosives.
"if someone got a hold of a used bus and loaded the undercarriage down with some high explosives and ran that down Park Ave. towards 42nd, then you would have some major damage if it could get inside the terminal building."
Long before 9/11, it was announced that the Salt Lake City light rail system would not be allowed to directly serve the opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympics for security reasons, at the insistence of the Secret Service and other police agencies. Instead, buses would be used to shuttle between the ceremony site and the nearest operating station on the main line of the light rail. This was after an extension of the light rail system to the university and its stadium had been built for the express purpose of serving the Olympics!
The decision perplexed and confounded a lot of people, who couldn't understand what a terrorist could do with a light rail car that they couldn't do with buses. It was pointed out by many that a bus could be stolen (or a legally-bought used bus painted to fit with the other buses), filled with explosives, and lined up with the other shuttle buses right by the stadium, while a light rail car would always be in the control of the transit authority and couldn't be taken elsewhere to be so booby-trapped.
At the time (pre-9/11, mind you), I actually sent an e-mail to the relevant Secret Service office pointing this out politely. While I haven't suddenly developed a "shadow" in a trenchcoat wearing an earpiece and speaking into his sleeve :^) I never got an answer back, either.
I supposed their light rail logic makes about as much sense as Rudy's fear that some terrorist would do something like light a shoe bomb off on the No. 6 train at the City Hall loop. It might be possible, but since you can't direct a rail car to go as many different places as a bus can - you're pretty much limited to "forward" and "backwards" with a train -- it would seem that a bus bomb threat would be a far more realistic possibility.
Usually if a train is bombed it is to get at something on the train, and then you don't sneak it on board, you just plant the bomb in the tracks and wait for it to come to you.
Anyone whe ever watched Hogan's Heroes knows that. :)
Mark
This is why we now have those ugly concrete barricades around GCT, Lincoln Center, etc. Keep the trucks far enough away so that you can't demolish a major landmark. You can still kill some people but not make such a major statement any more, at least not with conventional explosives.
you could take a bus and run it full speed northbound and downhill on Park Ave. across 42nd St. and into Grand Central. The north side sidewalk on 42nd St. in front of the terminal might be a good place to put some of those big concrete barriers
There have been concrete Jersey barriers paralleling the curb outside all the entrances to Grand Central since late September, IIRC. Makes getting cabs a little more challenging.
The exception is the Lexington Avenue corridor through the Grand Hyatt that leads into the concourse. Not sure why they didn't do that one. But otherwise, they're way ahead of ya ....
We've discovered that some of our inventory of the book "New York City Subway Cars" has defective binding (the entire cover pops right off the book with minimal effort) so we tried to call Xplorer Press but the phone number we had for them is disconnected. The web site http://www.xplorerpress.com/ also lacks a phone number. Does anyone have a current phone number for these people? Thanks.
Yor're right about the phone number, however a brief visit to the site revealed the apparently current address: Xplorer Press, P.O. Box 516, W. Orange, NJ 07052. Perhaps a NJ Phone book might have a phone number, or their web provider might have a contact number. Barring that, there's always the old fashioned way - a letter.
does anyone want one. I just got 100 of them, (Can;t say from were), but if you want one E-Mail me and I will send you more info. (All cards have never been programed.)
Robert
Is there something special about them, or are they just part of another advertising campaign?
MetroCards with adv. have been few and far between of late. Plus those that did come out had low volumns, e.g. the previous "Paint the Town Red" car was gone before many of us knew it came out (I got lucky & was at a show just after they came out). Therefore, if you are a collector you're anxious to grab one because of past problems getting them.
I have two friends who are looking out for one for me.
Mr rt__:^)
Mr. T. Check your email for a glimspe at the 'Paint the Town Red, White and Blue' card...
'Paint the Town...' is the trademark or slogan of the NYC Bureau of Tourism, so it is not a vendor-MetroCard in the truist sense of the term.
BMTman
Something special about these is the bold legend at the bottom "Buy MetroCard online metrocard.citysearch.com"
Per the posting by subway-buff, the TA announced these cards in a Stations Bulletin dated 12/27/01, and the first set became available at stations on 1/7/02
What this has to do with anything is that MetroCard.CitySearch.com stopped accepting new orders as of December 1, 2001. Current subscription orders were processed through December 31, 2001 putting them out of the MetroCard business one week before the riding public saw the first of these cards.
I guess it comes down to what would the MTA take more criticism for…putting out a run of Metrocards with obsolete information and hoping no one notices, or canceling the run and eating the cost of replacements.
Since no one else has remarked on this, it looks like the MTA guessed right.
PLEASE SEND INFO ON METROCARD............THANK YOU
Yesterday while I was at 207 Yard I was talking to the TSS in charg of new cars. He told me that one was coming last night, if they were able to come down from the plant. Four cars will come down Monday - Thursday with Friday the four get shiped some were for prep. and testing. As for the test it's two more day untill the end, Thats if the clock had not been reset in the past few days. So eveyone start saying go buy to the R40S, R40M & R42 from the L line and say hello to the R143's.
Robert
if they're just about done with the 30 day test, that's pretty damn good. how many times was the clock rest on the 142's? seems they got a lot of the bugs out with through the 142 test.
There are 4 more R-143s at East NY Shop now. From a reliable source, 4 will be delivered weekly starting quite soon. That same source reportes that it looks like the R-143 will not only pass its 30 day qualifying test but will do so in record time
Kudos to Kawasaki and the TA for an impressive achievement.
Can't wait to ride in them, although I don't ride on the Eastern Division. I am sure if not that, the R-160's will ride on the Southern Division.
When are the R160's schedule to arrive?
Some time after they're ordered, which hasn't happened yet.
David
R142s and R142As were ordered in April 1997. They arrived in December 1999 I believe. R143s were ordered in December 1998, they arrived in April 2001. So, I'm guessing a year and a half maybe. Remember, the R142s and R142As were late.
Word is, once the L is all full up, others will go the M ... the M should appear here and there on the southern division, it'll just be a while. They're *VERY* nice cars ...
I know you've already been in them - from what I've seen (and I got just as close to their innards and bottoms as you did) I think you'll be VERY happy with them if they ever find their way north to YOUR shop. VERY nice units, seem to be quite accessible for components and felt VERY solid. These ain't no IRT cars. :)
Seriously, they're VERY nice ...
I am happy to see they are doing better then the R142A's during the testing.
Prohibited thought ... now salute that BOARD, mister! Good penance. You may stand now. :)
Those 4 in ENY might be used for schoolcar purposes. Came directly from a 30-day test guy (TSS?) in a vest who told me. He came into the cab at Bedford to help the T/O in the tube.
GM just returned my wheels at my expense which had a loose computer bus ground connection buried undercar on the transmission. Hopefully, last day to ride subways to yard: R142 I was on had door indication problems that the RCI had no idea how to check and clear (shudda called the 'Juice!') Amtrak is being sued by Bombardier for $200 Million for Accela delivery failures based upon poor trackage not allowing full high speed service. My point? Bombardier was well aware of what NYC subway trackage was all about and never considered truck design changes. R143s should do well after the teething. CI Peter
Last night, after visiting some friends in Queens, I attempted to take advantage of the nighttime G service to travel to Brooklyn, only to be thwarted by the fact that it was terminating at Bedford/Nostrand instead of Smith/9th, which is where I wanted to go. My own fault, I guess, for not paying attention to G.O.'s. Since B/N is in the middle of nowhere as far as transfers are concerned, I went way out of my way, transferring to the L at Metropolitan/Lorimer to 14th to transfer to a W and used the BMT 4th Ave. line instead of the 9th St. IND. to get home to Park Slope. It's rare to see subway service stop in the middle of the line where no connections to other lines exist, and it was a pain in the neck for me last night. Where's the Second System when you need it?
The good news is that the immediate area is much safer now than even two years ago.
The G was running in two sections. One from Forest Hills to B/N, the other from B/N to Hoyt-Schemerhorn. No service from Hoyt to Smith-9th.
You could have just waited for the other half of the G to come in. Of course, then you would have had to transfer to the A and then again to the F.
CG
Had I known this, I may have done so, but it still would have been 2 transfers either way. I wonder if they were using the middle track for turnarounds. That would have been interesting to witness.
Shuttle from B/N to Hoty street is on a signle track with the other one truning around in the middle track.
Robert
BTW, the LCD rollsign displayed "TO BEDFORD/NOST", but, strangely, no "G". I thought I was seeing things till the C/R confirmed the mirage in his PA announcements.
"confirmed the mirage"
I should have said, "confirmed it was not a mirage"
It's an R-46 quirk. They can only display route letters along with "approved" routings and destinations. They can also display the name of any B Division station, but the letter is blank.
Hello fellow subtalkers,
I was wondering if anybody here works for the TA's Information Technology department? I applied to a position there and would like to ask you a question or two.. Could you either post a response here, or write me an email by clicking here? Thanks!
Wayne
A wire problem at 8:20 AM today has completely disrupted all SEPTA regional rail service. SEPTA is having to single track through 30th St. and trains are running with delays of an hour or more.
ha ha!
I visited St. Louis over the weekend and figured that someone might care about the condition of the two New York rapid transit cars that are stored at the Museum of Transport... or not. Anyway, here it is.
Brooklyn Rapid Transit #1365, a 1904 (I think) Jewett composite semiconvertible (BU class), is stored in one of MoT's open-sided barns. It is in okay shape, although virtually no upkeep has been done to it. The coupler is falling off one end, and it may have other structural problems. It is on display. BTW, I didn't know these things had rheostat control!
Hudson & Manhattan #256 is the oldest "Black Car" still existing. I don't remember which series it was. It is in extremely horrible shape after being stored outside for 35 years and not getting any attention whatsoever. It is now stored in an open-sided barn, but it still hasn't had any work done on it. The sides are almost completely rusted away along the floor line, and it appears that the structure of the car has been severely weakened by rusted carlines and posts. Its remains are on display. IMHO, this car ought to be deaccessioned and brought back to the East where someone may care about it.
Frank Hicks
>>Hudson & Manhattan #256 is the oldest "Black Car" still existing. I don't remember which series it was. It is in extremely horrible shape after being stored outside for 35 years and not getting any attention whatsoever. It is now stored in an open-sided barn, but it still hasn't had any work done on it. The sides are almost completely rusted away along the floor line, and it appears that the structure of the car has been severely weakened by rusted carlines and posts. Its remains are on display. IMHO, this car ought to be deaccessioned and brought back to the East where someone may care about it. <<
If you think that is bad - you should see the Hi-V car at Branford/Shoreline Trolley Museum. With the rust holes at the ceiling and floor lines I wonder what keeps it together.
You mean the Hi-V prototype?
Of course - car 3662.
That's not a prototype. It was one of 50 deck roof Hi-Vs. They were designed to accommodate center doors without the need for fish belly sills. I noticed the body rot on it the last time I saw it. The Bondo Squad would have their work cut out for them with that car!
Seashore has Hi-V 3352 (3350 - 3516 = 1904/05) which has had her center door removed, Shoreline's 3662 (3650 - 3699 Deck Roof 1907/08) was left as she was at the end of her career on the system.
Mr rt__:^)
Actually car 3662's condition is not that bad and it operates.
Most of the problems are sheet metal decay.
Jeff,
When I was last at Branford - about a year and a half ago on a Transit Museum trip - I had the opportunity to ride on 3662. What I saw was sickening, the floors near the doors had big holes in them, the sides at the roofline also had big holes with them. You say "Just sheet metal decay" as if it wasn't as important as the car being able to move.
The fact that the car operates means nothing if the rest of the car is deteriorating around it.
As a member of Branford (#1705) for over 18 years, I was very disappointed. I know that priorities are set on restoration of the various pieces of equipment housed there but some measures have to be taken to slow down or prevent the deterioration from getting so bad. The fact that Brandord/Shoreline is right next to a body of salt water doesn't help matters.
I guess in 2002 I am going to have to mark my quarterly contributions specifically for 3662 instead of the general operating fund.
Allan
Most of the deterioration happened while the car was stored
outside. Since being housed, the car is stabilized. In fact,
some work has been done on the roofing panels and storm doors.
In the realm of cars in museums, 3662 is about a 5 out of 10
in terms of condition.
3662 is on the list that the "3/4 Ton Crew" is interested in working on after we finish 6688 (she's scheduled for her top coat of paint this Spring). However, we need some more training to be able to attempt the kind of work she needs.
If there was someone who was willing to step forward to lead this project he would likely get a group of eager trainees. Meanwhile there is plunty of work to be done on most of the other 15 or so subway cars there, so we'll have no problem finding something meaningful and satisfing to do, e.g. PCC 1001 needs a re-paint; BU 1227 needs a new porch & other wood work; R-9 1689 needs some cosmetic work & has a few air leaks; Lo-V 5466 needs some general TLC; H&M 503 is almost ready to come out & play with the others (structural work on rotted floor is almost done); etc.
The point here is that Branford has quite a few folks very busy in a number of areas (there's still quite a large "trolley" staff), but there is room for many more who would prefer to work on subway/elavated cars & if they happen to have some specific skills that would be great (I'm pritty good with a hammer & nails, a putty knife or a paint brush).
Meanwhile we'll be the only place in the World that you can still take a ride in a Hi-V or a BU elevated gate car (I can't wait for "Member's Day" when they to put the Gate car & "G" back togather just for fun).
Mr rt__:^)
That museum, like many others, is a dump. The BRT car had no identification when I visited, and no one on the Museum staff even knew what it was! There's also a NYC S motor being scrapped by Mother Nature on the same site, within 50 feet or so of the BRT car. A trip to the museum near St. Louis is not good for a railfan's heart or soul. Fifty years ago we use to joke about "Rust in Peace". Well, here it is!
St. Louis is a graveyard, unfortunately, years ago. they had more credibility with railroad managements than most museums so they were able to acquire equipment that other museums were prohibited from acquiring, this equipment was then left to die a slow death. There are a few bright spots, however NYC 4-8-2 2933 is slowly being stabilized and Erie Lackawanna MFE36D6 (SD45)3607 is every bit as beautiful as she was when built (courtesy of the ELHS Boyz) but for the most part, St Louis could use some collection management.
The St. Louis museum, which used to be known as the National Museum of Transport, traditionally did a good job of living up to its nickname: Trashport. For years the collection was left to rust and rot. However, when I was there this time, I was impressed by the progress that the volunteers at MoT are making. Most of the equipment on display, including the BRT car, has new yellow metal signs with information on the car's history. They have recently put an operating electric line into operation, and this year they tripled their operating roster: to their Philly PCC they added a Chicago "single-6000" rapid transit car and a beautifully restored interurban car from the St. Louis Waterworks line. I was also impressed by the generally good shape of their steam collection; most engines appear to have been repainted within the past 5-10 years, a claim that IRM for one can't make.
MoT certainly has a long way to go. The NYC S-motor is in poor shape, but the Illinois Terminal Class-B and Class-C motors are considerably worse and are also stored outside. Most of the electric collection needs attention, although most of it is protected from further damage by being inside their (closed-to-the-public) trolley barn. MoT has been repainting a few of their electric cars - the Milwaukee Road bi-polar, the Waterworks interurban, and the Philly PCC they're currently painting green and cream - but the thing that will allow them to keep working on pulling these cars back from the brink will be more money and more volunteers.
Frank Hicks
BTW, I didn't know these things had rheostat control!
They don't. The washtub you see under the car is an early form
of Westinghouse Unit Switch control, known as the "turret" design.
It was only used between 1903 and 1905 then WH went over to the
inline design. I believe a small number were used in Chicago
wooden elevated cars, but no examples were saved.
Cab Signals have just been installed between CP-147 and CP-192 on the NS Amtrak Line. I believe that Amtrak owns this western segment of the NS Michigan Line (formerly CR), but it is dispatched and maintained by NS. Anywho, Amtrak passenger trains are the primary traffic on this line and a cab signal upgrade was long in comming. The FRA has now OKed 90mph operation between MP 150 and MP 190 on the line for two Amtrak trains, 351-07 and 364-07 (NS Designations). These will be the only two 90 mph trains for now. You can see an employee timetable of the line at:
http://www.geocities.com/crquality1/NSMichiganline2.jpeg
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I guess Geocities dosen't like direct linking. Hit refresh after it says the page does not exist. Then it works fine.
This is all very nice, but we have a beleagured "corridor" with
1) NS dispatching shenanigans between Chicago and Porter
2) Amtrak switching and taxiing shenanigans Dearborn-Detroit
3) US Customs abuses and shenanigans on the International that Amtrak is too chicken-hearted to confront
All of which lead to a 50% on-time performance. Going 90 vs 79MPH will do little to improve things.
Welcome back,
I just wanted to repost the poll so everyone can have a chance to vote. As a reminder, polling will close at 1:00 PM on Thursday, January 10th, and I will repost a message daily. Click here To see the details within the original post. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
I was on a Q Local till Church Avenue and crossed over for a Q Express. I get on and the C/R says there's a problem with the P.A. and says we won't move till the problem is fixed. I sit and wait. I knew what was going on. It was the idiots from my school who broke into a cab and made dumb announcements. Then a cop walked by looking into every car for the perp. And another walked by checking the cab door locks. And we didn't move for 15 minutes. CAN THEY DO THIS? I mean, if they do, they mine as well kick everyone off for holding a door. BTW, that cab door is easy to get into. 1 kick and it opens. I've leaned on some that have opened. But I unlocked them and closed them (otherwise it won't close). It would've sucked if the cop checking locks tried the one infront of me and it opens.
I was on a Q Local till Church Avenue and crossed over for a Q Express. I get on and the C/R says there's a problem with the P.A. and says we won't move till the problem is fixed. I sit and wait. I knew what was going on. It was the idiots from my school who broke into a cab and made dumb announcements. Then a cop walked by looking into every car for the perp. And another walked by checking the cab door locks. And we didn't move for 15 minutes. CAN THEY DO THIS? I mean, if they do, they mine as well kick everyone off for holding a door. BTW, that cab door is easy to get into. 1 kick and it opens. I've leaned on some that have opened. But I unlocked them and closed them (otherwise it won't close). It would've sucked if the cop checking locks tried the one infront of me and it opens.
An annoying delay, to be sure, but I can understand why it would be unwise to send the train out with unauthorized people in a cab and making false P.A. annoucements. For example, they could announce that there was a fire or a crime in progress and that the train had to be evacuated at the next stop. That could create a dangerous panic situation.
Or start fooling with other stuff.
Same thing happened to me on an M trian going down 4th Ave a couple of weeks ago. The crew didn't seem to care. They stopped playing around eventually... after making perv announcements and trying to announce 36th street, but screwed up one of the transfers.
The Brighton line is always known for that type of stuff. When I used it during my high school years, kids would break into a cab on the R68 and start making perverse annoucements.
CAN THEY DO THIS?
What a silly question. They did it, right? actually, they ARE required to do it for your safety.
A few weeks ago I wrote about a screw up on Dec 22 on the Ronkonkoma 2:42 p.m. to Penn. The planned consist never made it out of the yard and the inbound 2:36 short turned to protect the schedule. However, the train came in on platform A while everybody was waiting for the train on platform C.
The public affairs dept. called me today. (I called them yesterday to find out why there wasn't an answer.) The rep told me she checked the timex log and report logs and told me the train had equipment problems. WRONG! The planned outbound train had equipment problems, not the train that short turned. I told her this is what a conductor on the short turned train told me.
The point I made to her is why the inbound train didn't come in on platform C where everybody was waiting for the train. She assured me that the track wasn't open. I told her that didn't make any sense. The connecting train from Greenport (the train I was on) discharged on C and pulled west out of the way to clear for the 2:42.
I also pointed out that the crew didn't make any public explanation for the delay. She said she would report to operations that crews should report to passengers the reason for delays.
As for why the inbound train didn't pull into platform C where everybody was waiting, a rep from Transportation will call me within 2 weeks with details.
Stay tuned. The saga continues.
Michael
Dude, all this stuff because you had to go downstairs, walk over and go upstairs again.
Yeah, really....he must be in need of a life, eh?
I've got far worse things going on in my life and I don't let the little shit like having to cross a bridge to get to a different platform, OR the train running a few minutes late, bother me.
Trains have been breaking down and running late since they were invented.
I hope you aren't going too far out of your way for this complaint procedure. Unless you are really disabled or you saw someone else who was, and the walking was a ordeal for them, it probably wasn't worth it. As for the poor announcements, I can sympathize there. Look in the archives for my Acela Screw Up posts.
The elevator was out of service that day for the handicapped.
It seems strange. Some complaints or threads can go on forever but I raise a point of delay and I get dumped on. Look at the messages about the fool who train surfed. Incredible number of messages about somebody who did something stupid.
Michael
Holding firm in Washington, DC
You are getting dumped on because in this instance, most people think that you are wasting your breath complaining to LIRR for something, that as a railfan, you are more likely to know is unreasonable. Personally, having read yours and others postings, I honestly feel from an operations perspective, LIRR made the right decisions. But, when it came to communicating the info to you, it sounds like they didn't do too well.
Man, get a grip! You just don't give up. So you had to walk up and down from platform C to A or B. Are you disabled? If you are, there are elevators. If you are not, say a prayer. I am the parent of a disabled young adult. He can walk stairs, albeit with some difficulty. He can and does use conventional mass transit. Kwitcherbeefin'.
You are right, the L.I.R.R. is wrong! The L.I.R.R. should have announced, should have been wiser in positioning the equipement.
Complaining to them is like taking a walk on the beach and speaking to the Ocean about making the beach wet.
Move on, and expect surprises to pop up in your life.
avid
If nothing else, I'm holding their feet to the fire. The more people that get involved, the more they will remember. If you want change, you have to fight for it. I'm guessing that's why Straphangers have a committee. (I don't live in the New York metro area so I don't know their exact name.)
By forcing the public affairs to go back to the records, I'm showing her that she needs to do more research and not give a glib answer, which is what I expect most people expect. When you show that you know more than the railroad thinks you know, they take you more seriously and take a closer look at the situation.
Slowly, I've managed to change MARC management. They scheduled my AM train at a time that was impossible to maintain. Also, an Amtrak train interferred with the smooth operation of my train. After pounding for about 6 months, the Amtrak train schedule for #151 was changed.
Michael
You are likely holding no one's feet to any fire. More likely you've become an inter-office joke or a mild nuiscence. Frankly, if it were an frequent occurence I could see your efforts as worthwhile but for a one-time incident, I think your time and efforts could be better spent. As suggested by that early FOX network show, "GET A LIFE!
One evening last week, I was at Herald Square, and I needed a B or D. As I'm sure you're aware, the B stops on the southbound express track and the D stops on the northbound express track. I went down downstairs to the northbound platform, where I saw that the express track was vacant but a B was loading on the other platform. So I crossed up and over, reaching the B as the doors closed in my face. (Some idiot actually felt the need to laugh at me at that point.) So I went back up and over to await the next train, most likely a D.
Do you think I should file a formal complaint? Or, perhaps, should I accept that, once in a while, a train just might not be on the most convenient track for me?
David:
Did you have to stand in the cold like I did waiting for the train at Ronkonkoma? NO!!
Did you face a mass of humanity coming towards you on the staircase? NO!!
Were you concerned that if the train left you behind, the next one would be ONE HOUR LATER? NOOOOO!!!
It never ceases to amaze me the courage some writers have when they don't have all the facts.
I should keep track of the writers who complained vociferously about my posts so when they get so high and mighty about their problems, I can say "Get a life!! The subway got you to where you wanted to go."
It seems some writers act like Gods and stand in judgement as to whether a post of others is significant.
Michael
Undeterred in Washington, DC
Make sure you keep my name, because *I* have no sympathy for whiners.
And if such a situation DID happen to me, I CERTAINLY wouldn't come onto anything on the Internet to do the whining. Has as much effect as fart in the wind....
If you are from Washington, DC, how often do you ride the RR? It's likely not too frequently. Okay, what sort of response from the LIRR are you looking for? Do you want an apology? If so you may get one but how will you know it's sincere? You will not get anyone fired or even reprimanded. If you expect the RR to change the way it operates, forget it. They will not throw the baby out with the bath-water for one complaint. My advice to you is to move on with your life. It (your life) can't be that empty that this is the supremely important event in it.
Did you have to stand in the cold like I did waiting for the train at Ronkonkoma? NO!!
What does that have to do with a train coming in on an unexpected platform?
Did you face a mass of humanity coming towards you on the staircase? NO!!
No, that happened Thursday morning when I entered 49 (N/R/W) NB around 9:30. I'm not sure what happened, but the entire token booth area was packed (I had to snake around the crowd along the wall) and people were still exiting. It looked like a crowded train had dumped every one of its passengers just as I had arrived. (The following N train was quite empty.)
Then again, I'm not sure what you mean by "a mass of humanity." I wouldn't be surprised if the mass of humanity exiting my local home station in the afternoon rush after each train pulls in is greater than the mass that you had experienced.
Were you concerned that if the train left you behind, the next one would be ONE HOUR LATER? NOOOOO!!!
For all you knew, I was trying to get up to the GWBBS to catch a bus with even longer headways. It turns out I wasn't; I choose to spend most of my time in areas that have adequate density to support shorter headways than that.
But didn't your train wait for everyone to reach the proper platform, in any case?
It never ceases to amaze me the courage some writers have when they don't have all the facts.
Like you (as we determined the last time you brought this up)?
I certainly don't object to service complaints -- I've posted my fair share here myself. I wish your complaint were the most serious complaint I could come up with!
And I suppose your complaints are enough to stop the world?
They don't have a next train sign?
In general, at Ronkonkoma and most eastern terminals, the schedule states from fhich platform a specific train will depart
I was refering to Herald Square.
OK, I'm slowly figuring it out.
Paradise is sitting in a nicely heated wooden L car on a stormy day with the rain pelting the windows as you eat a fresh Ring Ding and sip hot Dunkin Donuts coffee.*
*Warm female companion optional, but maybe too much to ask for.
You mean an "old" Ring Ding right? Ring Dings have changed since the 70s. They were better when they came in individual foil wrappers.
They ... they DON'T come in individual wrappers any more...?
Oh .. my heart ...
Paul,
As far as I know, females NEVER came in individual wrappers!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
You mean they're NOT sanitized for my protection? ;-)
Paul,
I'm not about to go there! Besides, they still can make me feel warm and fuzzy all over.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I'm very tempted to hit the rim shot button.
>>> As far as I know, females NEVER came in individual wrappers! <<<
Most of the ones I have met do come in individual wrappers, except two English girls on holiday I met one day in the ‘60s on the Plage de Pampelonne near St. Tropez. :-)
Tom
They've changed since the eighties, because I remember them in the freezer :)
-Hank
Ewww ... scooter pies! :)
Yep ... that's PRECISELY it ... pity you didn't get a chance to meet Nancy when we came down - nothing like a cozy railfan to keep you warm in the cab when the window won't go back up. :)
Ah, maybe next time... :)
And remember the unused cabs on a BMT B unit before the rebuild?
Did they eliminate those two person private compartments with the rebuild?
Yes.
Which begs the question:
Does anyone on here belong to the "mile under" club, since those cabs could accomodate 2 people? :)
Heh. All it takes these days is the right keys. HeyPaul put up some pictures of Nancy and I engaging in "two-person operation" of an R143 on the Canarsie line on Christmas day ... with the right connections, the old days are still alive and well. And the heaters actually WORK in the 143's. :)
Did you two try to scrunch in together in his R-9 cab?:-)
Yes indeed ... we did it "TA style" but HeyPaul was blusing So muh at the shiksa in his cab, that he was unable to save the videotape buffer to his WEBBED teevee in order to save it for posterior ... SUFFICE it to say that HeyPaul's cab has INDEED been blessed, and we did it CATHOLIC STYLE while HeyPaul was left in his secret radiocave blasting the CDROM "meltdown style" ... we actually saw the speaker cone of his sacred Atwater Kent bounce off the ceiling. It did NOTHING to reduce our throes of railfoamer passion. Dougie observed over on the other place that we left behind railfoamer stains of our pleasure in his R9 cab. :)
My goodness!!! I thought this site was supposed to be G-rated!
LOL!
I'm not going to ask about that "Catholic style".:-)
Heh ... Monty Python, "Meaning of Life" ...
Does that envolve candles, wine, ring bells and Latin enuendo.
avid
Frankincense and myrrh are also involved ... helped to stop HeyPaul's head from spinning. :)
No Olive Oil and large plastic drop cloth?
avid
Heh. Obviously you don't KNOW about Catholic gurls. No "devices" required. :)
Just for another rail related Paradise, the 8 line in Baltimore had a cutack at Paradise (Avenue). We always referred to it as a "cutback to
Paradise".
Best look from the uninformed. The shocked look when you told them you were going to Paradise.
Paradise California. You ascend up to it from Chico. It usta have a single track spur railroad which served a lumber facility north of it. Yes, my Grandma ascended into Paradise every time she went home from Chico. And once, among the more-born-again, my statement that she was in Paradise got the heavenly interpretation.
How about snow softly falling, pretzel sticks and a coke?
Ring Dings used to come one per package and were much larger than the present day cakes. This was in the 60s...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Are you going to list that on
forgotten-foods.com? ;-)
Don't forget to mention Mello-rolls.
Moon pies! (another motorman fortifier along with SnoBalls) ...
lol, i remember, what do you get when you pass a red, you get a brown
You never GET a brown, you TAKE a brown ... never someone else's fault. :)
isn't it second nature for T/Os to blame the tower?
Ah ... your explorations have been fruitless grasshopper ... heh. ANY problems are written up as "vandalism" ... can't charge it to car equipment, best not cross a fellow TWU member, so you write up any such "brown alerts" as vandalism ... no joke - ask the current T/O's what you write if you write it at all. :)
lol, so if you run a red and trip (result in pants position is brown,yes) you can write up vandalism? So how come the drunk guy who crashed the train on the East Side IRT just not write up vandalism? "uuuh some kids slipped alcohol into my coffee which caused me to bend cars against beams"
Yeah, YOU'RE ready for school car ... next exam, bro ... you've got it down ... (grin)
boy I wish, seriously. And if that doesnt work out I could be foaming, or better yet, be like that guy who broke into TA facilities stole handles and railfanned wherever he wanted.
dude, what are you taking about, YOU ARE THAT GUY! LOL!
SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH........There are werk bums on dis here board.
hehe! ok, so maybe you're not, but hot damn, you're the biggest damn foamer i ever did see. hehehe!
god damn, how much bork am i full of tonight?
foamer eh? we'll see what kind of foamer I am next time things get nautical
you shoulda seen some of our other cohorts over the weekend, they were foaming as they got their ferret-faces on.
I was BORKING GODDAMNIT, can't i get a Bork in once in a while.
of course... it's all about the bork, really.
Ummm ... they're a bit more strict about those kinda things these days, Mr. Darius. :)
hey kev, when you had that yard accident, did you blame the tower too?
Nope ... made the mistake of charging a busted pipe to car equipment. Shoulda written "vandalism" ... heh.
OY, nice nice. What year was that? 70s? would have been belivable
March, 1971 ... CIY layup ...
yeeea, that time I could probably get into the yard (those were the days) How long were you been operating upto that point?
As a motorman, I'd been on the road for 6 weeks. Worked the TA for just under a year.
Hmmm - right about the time of Ali-Frazier I. I remember it well.
Sorry to blow it for ya, but one of the reasons why I got a female persuasion railfoamer geese as my betrothed is because I never gave a CRAP about "sports" ... ya see, those of us WHO GET SOME don't believe in feetball ... do ya KNOW how many of us who can't tell a goalpost from a milepost are diddling your wimmens during STUPORBOWL? Nevermind. :)
LOL!!
Kev, you're THE MAN!
BMTman
those of us WHO GET SOME don't believe in feetball
who get some...
A subway pictures
B transit maps
C railfan window time
D none of the above
blue pills
avid
Ouch!!!
Hey, no sweat. To each his own. I'm a musician/sports fan/transit buff myself. And happily single.
how you gunna blame the tower if you wet your pants?
Bwahahaha! *rimshot*
rimshot eh? thats getting close
haha! going with one stream can be hard to do in the morning. hehe!
Split window on a R-21-22?
The original cars on the orange line in philly ??
The los angeles PE blimps doin thier thang back in the 1950s ...!!!
finally the entire pre world war 2 fleet everywhere !!
lol ....!!
Well, lets see. Hmmmmmmmm. They all qualify.
You or any one enjoying all of these items would have to be:
1) a time traveler
2) dead and in Paradise
3) a subtalker in a wildass mueseum.
Sign me up for the next field trip.
avid
>>>Are you going to list that on
forgotten-foods.com? ;-)<<
Mockery does not become you.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>Are you going to list that on
forgotten-foods.com? ;-)<<
Mockery does not become you.
Is their a pun in there someplace?
Drake's also had Ring Ding Juniors. The full-blown Ring Dings were about the same size as today's Ding Dongs.
Paradise to me is waiting on an outdoor platform on the old BMT with the wind and the snow adding to the misery. Then a set of old BMT Standards enters the incandescent lit (it's nightime!) station. The trains slows to a stop, rail joint click clacks and air brake sounds are muffled by the snow. I enter the car and sit by the window at a cross seat and after the doors close and train excellerates I feel the fireplace like warmth from the heater.
NOW, I'M ALL EXCITED !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Its 1979 Im at Intervale ave, an old R-17 biiig Lee and Fantastic 5 piece ruins the car, colors all over, still smells like paint, freshly done, Its 2 AM, winter, cold, miserable, I get on, the inside is covered, accross me is a NYCTransit Police Officer with the old leather jackets and PUSHBROOM mustache staring at me, I settle in and watch the south bronx go by and know that all is right with the world
"Paradise" would be a return to the esthetics of the triplexes and their similar models, but with amenities such as air conditioning. And, bring back the els so the could be more outdoor riding.
The bare bulbs, the overhead fans, the wicker seats, the strange noises. I remember it all.
Real paradise would be the end of the grievances and jealousies that led to 9/11/01.
We're not realpolitik, or any other kind of politik, in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Paradise" would be a return to the esthetics of the triplexes and their similar models
Hmmm.. I never thought of Triplexes as being "esthetic." Not ugly exactly, but didn't quite have the agreeable appearance of a lot of the other BRT and BMT equipment.
OTOH, thinking about the interiors, they had a rather nice arrangement and look to them, almost like suburban cars...
Once upon a time, Brooklyn *was* the suburbs ... that's why Lynbrook took the liberty of anagramming a cozy little sleepy 'burg ...
A three-story building on New Utrect or Myrtle Avenue, with my owner's apartment on the third floor, with a wonderful space on the roof to look down on the el. There's a spot on New Utrecht with some lovely old buildings set someway back from the el at a triangle, where you get the best of all possible worlds -- somewhere in the 40s maybe, not far from where 13Av crosses.
How much more rail-fan paradise can you get? I actually *want* to live close to an el! Someplace on Roosevelt might do too.
When the Third Avenue el closed in Manhattan, some of the people who had it outside their apartment windows said they missed it. I especially recalled someone saying that they woke up inthe middle of the night because they didn't hear the train any more.
I was one of those myself ... and even stranger since I was right AT the 204th St station (northbound side) the headlights from the trains could be seen from Bedford park getting closer and closer and closer until it looked like the northbound was going to come RIGHT IN THE WINDOW when it suddenly did the left turn to the platform AT 204 St. So in addition to the sounds, there was also the headlight things that was suddenly missing as well. I moved out. :)
In mid afternoon, everytime a Manhattan bound J crosses in front of my house and I have the windows open, the sudden loss of sunlight can be very startling.
I can attest to this. I still live on Jamaica Avenue, and have since I was 5. Whenever I either went on vacation or slept over someone else's house, I could never sleep because it was too quiet! I needed that every-20 minute clatter.
My brother-in-law is just the opposite. He has to have absolute quiet in order to go to sleep and is soundproofing the walls in his house. It may be due to a hyperactive thyroid. He'll eat anything my sister puts in front of him and still won't gain any weight.
Did he ever try one of those "white noise" machines?
Melatonin, man
The greatest sleep aid since someone invented counting sheep.
Actually, both my wife and I found L-tryptophan (sp?), a protein, very effective, with no side effects. That's the protein in milk that has a mild sedative effect (as in "a warm glass of milk before bed").
I don't think you can buy it any more. It's not dangerous itself, but an improperly made batch from batch was somehow adulterated and they pulled it all.
That's why I like melatonin. It's merely an artificially manufactured hormone your brain uses to naturally tell your body "it's time to go to bed". I take 1 3 MG tablet, and 90 minutes later I felt I just got off a 12 hour shift in a salt mine. The only side effect is increased dreaming intensity, which is why I stopped taking it right after 9/11.
My idea of paradise:
Sitting on a heated R16 at 168th St/Jamaica at 7 AM with a cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee, a toasted coconut donut, $5 dollars in your pocket, fresh batteries and several of your favorite tapes in your Sony Walkman, and having the entire day in front of you. Female companionship is NOT desired, but it'll be nice to have that when you get home at 5:30 PM.
Except for the 168th St thing, I've experienced this. Ahhhhh...
168th St was a great old station.
You would have loved it if you had ever been able to use it.
I do remember using it in it's last days, but since I was 5 years old when it closed, the memories were blurry. I didn't even remember the wooden platform until I discovered this site.
If you liked 168/Jamaica's old flavor, you probably would've LOVED Metropolitan Avenue before the fire and rebuild (and before the masive stores built next to it).
Real old BRT station in the sticks, all wood, ancient wooden station house on Metropoltan Avenue ... probably all the same since before the northern part of the line was rebuilt in the Dual Contracts.
And the motormen used to go to Lutheran Yard to take out a "wood" or a "steel."
Yes, but Metropolitan Ave was on the ground, and 168th St was on the el.
At 168th you could watch them cut six car trains down to three.
What was special to me about Metropolitan Avenue is that it was on the ground--the only surviving terminal from the days when the pre-Dual Contracts street-level BRT.
I guess you could add Rockaway Parkway, but it wasn't the original terminal, and I don't think as much is recognizable from the early 20th century.
What was special to me about Metropolitan Avenue is that it was on the ground--the only surviving terminal from the days when the pre-Dual Contracts street-level BRT
Really? I was always under the impression that everything on the Myrtle Ave line west of Wykoff Ave was post-dual contract construction. Did Metropolitian Ave exist before the subway was extended from Wykoff in 1916ish?
Really? I was always under the impression that everything on the Myrtle Ave line west of Wykoff Ave was post-dual contract construction. Did Metropolitian Ave exist before the subway was extended from Wykoff in 1916ish?
I guess you mean "east (north) of Wyckoff"? Yes, Metropolitan Avenue pre-existed the Dual Contracts. Trains ramped down (IIRC right after Wyckoff) and ran on thr ground via the current right-of-way, but at ground level.
Yes, east...duh.
That explains that trolly ROW the elevated passes over from Seneca to Fresh Pond.
Without wracking my poor tired brain, I believe every surface right-of-way was kept as trolley trackage, unless, of course, the new line obliterated the old, like on the Brighton.
I believe the route to Metro on the ground was originally a Steam line from (anyone know where it came from?) to the Lutheran Cemetary. The BRT took over the line and ran on the ground from Wyckoff to Metro. When the Broadway line was upgraded, the Myrtle el line was upgraded to Wyckoff, and the el was extended to Fresh Pond Road. It remained on the ground to Metro. They then ran a trolly line on the former BRT tracks on the ground, under the new el structure. This survived into the 50's.
Also, the original terminal at Metro burned down in the late 70's, that is why Metro looks pretty new. I don't know when the steam line that first ran there, started service, or when the BRT took over, but I know the BRT took over before the el was built in 1915 to Fresh Pond, because it was a surface line on private ROW, like the M el is today.
Paul: I have nice memories of sitting on a Q-Type at Metropolitan Avenue in a forward facing seat next to an open window on a pleasant early spring evening. Before they built that damn warehouse there was just one very big field there and as the sun dropped into the west is was a most tranquil place.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, I used to work in that damned warehouse....LOL
I remember 168th St. Rode out to it perhaps three times in 1968-69.
Using the exit at the south(west end of the platform, going into a buitding next to the RKO Alde, opposite the Valencia Theater.
avid
I remember the Valencia, although my memories are of it being a streetfront church.
It was one of my Sunday movie favorites. The balconies seemed to go for ever. I saw Ben Her in that theather, I think that was the last movie I saw there, 1960
avid
Is the Valencia still a church? I peeked in the doors once and it seemed like a beautiful theater at one time. It was probably a real theather at one time, before being converted to a movie theater
Using the exit at the south(west end of the platform, going into a buitding next to the RKO Alden, opposite the Valencia Theater.
avid
a path train under the wtc..
anyone seen this pic before ?? .....
That shot, along with a couple of similar ones, were in The Star Ledger and Bergen Record newspapers several weeks ago.
is there a link so i can see the rest of the photos ??
I'm not sure if they still have those photos available, but here goes:
The Star Ledger: http://www.nj.com/photos/worldtrade/
The Bergen Record: www.bergen.com
The Ledger link is straight to a page for WTC photos, The Record link is the general link to the paper.
Thanks!
i could not find the PATH photos .. ( oh well )
But U know the old sayin'
"" if you snooze U loose ""
guess i missed dat one !! .......lol !!
thankz
Just got my new issue of Fire Apparatus Journal; numerous photos of FDNY trucks wrecked in the disaster. To really get a feel for it, you need only view a 10-ton ladder truck turned inside out and melted; a 3-ton Tac unit whose rear wheels now point up while the front point down.
A few cars on a PATH train are nothing.
-Hank
I have seen in earlier posts references that there were other stations on the Broadway El and the Myrtle Ave. El before Dual Contracts..
Does anyone know the names of them and when and why they were removed??
I'm assuming it was pre-1915, but I have yet to see at map from the era....
One obvious removed station - Broadway Ferry.
I think there was a Driggs Ave too, or is that the Ferry Station? Also removed around the same time, as that part of the M line was redone was Evergreen Ave, the next stop after Myrt-Bway after the M left the Broadway line. Evergreen was removed I assume becaquse too close. Actually the New Central Avenue had an Evergreen exit on it's opposite end of the platform, also since removed(within the last 5 years)
Park Ave, between Flushing And Myrtle Ave.
Evergreen Ave, between Central & Knickerbocker?
Actually Evergreen was between Myrtle-Broadway and Central.
Does anyone have any pictures??
Also, what were the car widths at this time on the Broadway El??
Am I correct in assuming that they were the narrower IRT width (as on other early BRT els?
The Standards were the first 10' wide BMT cars.
All of the BMT gate cars were 9' wide except those that were rebuilt into C types.
IIRC the Cs had skirts on their sides a la the Lo-Vs which helped out on the BMT.
Can someone tell me what CTBC really is? Is it ATO? (Automatic train Control) or some sort of signaling improvement??
I believe CBTC is communications based train control. Right now the NYC is on a fixed signal block indication. CBTC is a moving block system which will allow for more trains at higher speeds. I believe it is just a new system. Even if it is Automatic Train Control, they might be able to pull it off on some lines like the L and 7. They can do that to those lines because they have few diverging routes and they do not share tracks with other trains. For example how E shares tracks with F between 36th and continental avenue. they wanna make the whole system that way, but it costs too much and its too complex for a 97 year old subway. October 27 of 2002 will make 98 years. Its too complex and too costly to MTA. So believe me all the Motormen i know do not fear of either taking a pay cut(because TA won't pay Motorman if they don't need to run the trains anymore. well they won't get paid much like today). They are not worried. Only people in trouble is TA wanna get rid of Conductors and make OPTO. u know the union is not agreeing with that
I understand. So its like tracking trains on a more advanced level while on the move, I have been hearing about OPTO for a looong time, The union has their teeth holding on to prevent that or so I hear from TA types. Thanks a Lot
Eventually, some form of CBTC will spread to therest of the system. The L train and 7 trains are good places to test it, as you have pointed out. But this is proven technology, and if it works on those lines, there's no reason for MTA to not use it on others. It's just a matter of time. The costs will be spread out over ime, and it will pay for itself in savings.
In the long term, the best thing any front-line transit employee can do is continue training, add skills, get familiar with new technology (which isn't new, really); education, a bigger skill set and flexibility offers more job security in the long run than any union contract could provide. In fact, I think transit unions have an obligation to make sure their members get the opportunity to update their knowledge.
CBTC is NOT proven technology. It is very much bleeding-edge.
The only thing proven thus far on light rail installations is
that it is a royal pain to cut in.
What cities use CBTC now ?
I believe CBTC is communications based train control. Right now the NYC is on a fixed signal block indication. CBTC is a moving block system which will allow for more trains at higher speeds
The MTA is never going to increase speeds. The keep on slowing things down !!
actually if you install CBTC and ATC/ATO then you can (assuming you trust Hal more than the current T/O's) both speed up and increase TPH.
Will they? to be continued.
Curve speeds can't be increased. You have to be worried about derailments and people being thrown against walls.
They won't increase speeds in WD areas, or places where there are timers that already slow down trains.
Ahhhhhh........dreams of speed. Trackage simply won't allow it, period. What CBTC could do is allow better timing and close-up to gain a mere 10%. My drive to the 239th Yard from Manhattan: 21 minutes. My subway ride there: approximatly 80 minutes. CI Peter
tell me what CTBC really is?
CBTC stands for Communication Based Train Control.
Conventional train control systems use fixed sensors along the right of way to determine whether or not a train is present and possibly its speed. The sensor outputs are fed into a distributed or centralized control system to determine how fast each train should move. The control system's output is sent back to each train either directly into the cab or to wayside signals.
CBTC works differently. Each train senses its own position and speed. It communicates this information to the control system. The control system calculates what how fast each train should go. This information is communicated back to the train's cab.
Is it ATO? (Automatic train Control)
If the information regarding how fast the train should go is available in the cab, it is not too difficult to have such information control the train's speed. CBTC is not the only technology that provides cab signalling. The TA did have ATO at one time without CBTC.
or some sort of signaling improvement?
CBTC may offer the prospect of cost reduction. It does not offer any theoretical advantage in increased train speed or service levels.
Surely, if properly installed, configured, and tested (a big bunch of ifs), it allows reduced headway between trains.
If the system knew exactly how many feet away the next train was, that would be a much better control device for keeping trains apart than the current signal blocks. You still want to have a live trained human being in the cab, but the control device (in case the human messes up) can be much more accurate with CTBC.
Surely, if properly installed, configured, and tested [CBTC](a big bunch of ifs), it allows reduced headway between trains.
Whatever gave you that idea? The only benefit CBTC might provide is reducing the signal/human reaction time to changes in the state of the system. This is on the order of 2-4 seconds or under 5%. OTOH, most current block systems are operating at less than 75% of their capacity.
If the system knew exactly how many feet away the next train was, that would be a much better control device for keeping trains apart than the current signal blocks.
The lowest documented headway I know of for a conventional block system was for the tracks between Park Row and Sands St - 56¼ seconds or 64 tph. None of the heavy rail CBTC systems reach 75% of this figure.
R142 tech uses inches in distance based upon 34" wheel diameter to sense location. NEWER train tech elswhere uses GPS...tunnels don't allow satellite fix. CBTC TA was to use 2400 mHz comm transponders....system dumped for inductive links every 100 feet of trackage in hopes of pushing close in to get 10% speed up. CI Peter
R142 tech uses inches in distance based upon 34" wheel diameter to sense location.
They had better have beacons placed every 10 miles or so, if they want to rely on this dead reckoning method. Suppose the diameter were out by 0.1% or 0.034". After 20 miles, this position sensor would be off by 105.6 feet. Of course, they still don't know which track they're on. Not quite as accurate as a conventional block system.
NEWER train tech elswhere uses GPS...tunnels don't allow satellite fix.
GPS technology can be jammed. Somebody ought to alert the WMATA security people that they have more to fear from a microwave oven than they do from published track maps.
CBTC TA was to use 2400 mHz comm transponders....system dumped for inductive links every 100 feet of trackage...
There goes CBTC's cost benefit.
Hey, at least someone with a brain reads my posts!!!!! LOL!!! Don't get me wrong...my posts are based on my experience. A 180th Street crewman asked me about the position sense...Bomba techs filled his head with nonsense about the computers being able to read wheel diameter. We check wheels every inspection...no changes noted yet in measurements...just burned brake shoes. Sometimes, the computer asks for AAS...'tell me where I'm at'...it runs backwards from 241st St. to the yard. GPS is being used for a lot of things...but not in tunnels and who would make the effort to jam it? The 2.4 gig transponders were dumped for some reason...they were illegal in the US as they operated on the ham bands without authorisation. TA isn't planning CBTC projects right now...the effort is being made to end museum trainset service. Me fixumup 2s n 5s, CI Peter
We have been using a new computerized signalling system from Siemens with “floating” track-circuits for a couple of years now in the subway of Stockholm – Sweden. Installation started in 1997 (and its still not working properly). The train communicates with the signalling system trough data-telegrams received from the rails with a pair of inductive antennas mounted in front of the first wheelpair/boggie.
The trains receive speedlimits in 5/kmh steps, and “stop positions”, a kind of virtual red signal on the track.
For this to work the exact speed of the train and the travelled distance most be known. Therefore the wheel diameter must of cause be held within specified limits. Even a small difference in speed / travelled distance, like caused by a simple wheel-slip, can corrupt the data and will immediate cause the train to execute a BIE. After an BIE the train must reset and recalibrate it self, and that is done by crawling at very low speed thru 2 complete “floating” track-circuits, not including the track-circuit the train actually standing on at the time of the BIE.
The announced decreased headway’s and the increased speed has never been archived, in fact its slower and allows less trains on the tracks than our old relay-based signalling-system from 1950.
The system also comes with the ability of ATO, even though its not fully tested and implemented yet (suprice).
/B.
See...NYC SubTalkers still don't read my postings and just complain about every little thing. CBTC was supposed to bring about a 10% headway in travel IF initiated. Problem is what that headway will bring now that rail speed is cut down to 40mph max (about 60Kmph.) I'm sure your T/Os LOVE those logged BIEs. Perhaps 'old will be new again.' CI Peter
One some days, all you hear over the radio are trains reporting in BIE's :-)
/B
KOOOL!!!
You're saying that the EM emissions background in the city is enough to make GPS unreliable?
Comm tech WB2SGT can hold up a unresonant field stregnth meter and make a needle move without being in immediate presense of a strong RF field...there is plenty of microwave range interference. GPS tracking requires a window fix on several geosynchronus satellites... NYC street GPS in a moving vehicle is a little unreliable for accurate position fix. Imagine being in a trainset underground...try picking up a signal 24,000 miles away. Just try looking at the sun in Grand Central station fifty feet below the street. CI Peter
You're saying that the EM emissions background in the city is enough to make GPS unreliable?
No, what I said was that GPS signals can be jammed. Also most of the hardware required to make a jammer are contained in a microwave oven.
You keep clicking upon the wrong poster. Of course I know about microwave ovens....the greatest little handheld invention was a little box containing a button operated microwave oscillator that would trigger speed radar detectors in cars. 'Brakelight bingo'...push the button, watch the brakelights and PASS. CI Peter
For what it's worth, I have a little handheld GPS unit that I use when I go hiking, and it's virtually impossible to get an accurate reading on the streets of Manhattan, much less underground. I have to go into the middle of a park.
More elaborate units might do better; I don't know.
Thanks for posting that. Important information.
6791-6800 are in service as of today! Got to ride the gal on the way home.
7571-80 are here and were in testing today.
-Stef
In service on the 5?
No.
-Stef
Gonna happen!!! Real soon!!! Problem is that R142s don't have ANY flexibility in changing routes. CI Peter
Looks like problems on 7th Avenue forced an R-142 Train down Lexington Av this afternoon.
I wonder if the C/R made manual announcements?
-Stef
Did the train run in revenue service on the Lex. line, or just pass thru? If it did run in service, was it on the 4 or 5? -Nick
In service with passengers, it switched off at 149th Street Grand Concourse.
-Stef
I was on one that did that on Mon eve. Ran express on the Lex. For a while, they tried to sign it 5 on the inside, I guess to be able to use the canned PA. It didn't work, so they just said what they had to
Hey folks maybe you guys can figure this out, I saw a set of r142's at gun hill road last week. I don't remember the rest of the car numbers I only remember seeing car no. 6740 out of the group. The train was parked on the express track or test track, anyway as I walked passed the cars I noticed the last car had all types of wires coming from out of the top or near the light fixture, some of the wires were plugged into a laptop computer. Their were at least three guys sitting on the bench in front of or around the laptop, Anyway I'm assuming this is the way they program these cars. My point is do they have to make such a mess just to get these cars to work properly?
They might have been monitoring something. They have to make a mess to make sure that the set which you saw works properly! It was testing and must have just came in (6736-6740).
My brother in law who work for Amtrack Bombardier in Washington DC & he have laptop to fix computer in the New Amtrack Bombardier Trains go to New York City or Boston. He show me all kind of stuff in his laptop. He say if any thing go wrong with computer in the train & he just go fix it with the laptop & find out what wrong with the computer.
Peace
David J.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody is doing any kind of programming. The laptops can plug in for many kinds of downloads and monitoring. Several weeks ago, I noticed the Bomba crew had LAN cables all over the place...any trainline LAN failure will stop a R142 'dead in the water.' Better with two cans and a string. CI Peter
Hi,
I'm wondering which frequencies the LIRR uses in Penn station specifically, IE to dispatch trains and what not. I brought a scanner in to the city the other day and I didnt hear anything in penn station on Channel's 1-4, the yard, dispatch, intra-train channels etc.
--MetsFan4552
Try the Amtrak channel 6060 161.010
All trains should use the SAME channel in Penn.
LIRR uses the following frequencies:
Channel 1: 160.380
Channel 2: 161.445
Channel 3: 161.265
Channel 4: 161.535
Car Maint: 161.385
Road Main: 160.395
160.725
160.785
PD: 160.620
PD: 160.455
PD: 160.605
PD: 160.320
Amtrak and NJ Transit use the above frequencies mentioned in the previous message, but not the LIRR. All trains use Channels 1 thru 4, but Channel 1 is for the Stationmaster and West Side Yard, and PSCC and 204(Dispatcher) is on Channel 2. 1 and 2 are the two main frequencies LIRR uses there.
Amtrak in the Penn Station terminal area (SECTION A) uses 160.920 MHz (Amtrak NEC Road), while the LIRR uses 160.380 MHz (LIRR Road 1, LIRR SECTION A/PSCC*) * - Penn Station Control Center aka Claytor-Scannell Control Center.
Amtrak has TWO NEC road channels: 5454 (160.92) (south of Trenton) and 6060 (161.010)(north of Trenton.)The changeover takes place at Morris Interlocking.
Penn Station is on 6060. Amtrak got the new frequency because of some overlap of frequencies.
Michael
Unless there is a problem going on they don't really say that much. You usually just hear track assignments for inbound trains and what the crew is supposed to due to the train after it arrives. Most communication is done by the signals.
It is usually good to have it in if you think something is wrong with your train, though. You'll hear what is going on and if there is going to be a track change, if your equipment gets pulled.
-- Kirk
I've carried a scanner for years. Although there weren't many announcements of what trains were on what track there are less now since believe or not September 11. That's from a dispatcher who said it started after 9-11 when they didn't want to announce where a (AMTRAK)train was going to be for security. The trainmen etc. are relying on screens set-up in crew and dispatcher rooms similar to what we see except that there for their use. The info-booth people had these screens but the last time I looked they were shut off because too many of us were learning how to go back there and read them and know where our trains were before everyone else found out.
they used to have electronic hand writers to post train numbers and tracks. the towers wrote to many places in penn sta. there was one by the lower level arrivals desk there was a system in GCT also. that dated from the 1920's.
OH YEA !! ...LOL !
OMG!!!!! And it has a railfan window too!!!!
Hahahahahahahaha ... LOL!!!!!!!!
Dont knock my PE 314 REDBIRD !! here she is today at the orange empire museum ( my photo dis' time ) .....lol !! he he he he
OH YEA !! lol !
OMG!!!!! He spelled proof correctly!!!!!
Hey ...hey !!!!!! " proof " ...??
lol !!
Now that's a rustbird. Why, there are even two large holes in the front!
Does anyone remember what the 30 day test for the R68s and R68As were like?
Hi there,
I am trying to find out how long the tunnels are in the NY Subway.
Is there a web site that would have this information within it?
Any help would be most appreciated.
Many thanks,
Nick.
By no means is this scientific, and I could have it mixed up, but I think I remember that if they are stretched out, you could get to Chicago. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't remember if that includes yard trackage. I vaguely remember something like that.
CI Peters brain is so tied up right now...forgive any numerical errors. I'm at least close to the facts.
740 miles of trackage
196 Interlockings
11,000 track zones
305,000 relays
Zillions of stinking lightbulbs
Too many Redbirds
Tunnels only, or total track miles? The MTA website says 685 miles, but doesn't break it down by type of structure.
Well, at least I can speak for some of the IND's underwater crossings:
Cranberry Street tunnel, 8,487 feet
Rutgers Street tunnel, 5,479 feet
53rd Street tunnel, 5,589 feet
Washington Heights -- Concourse tunnel, 5,397 feet
Newtown Creek tunnel, 4,790 feet
--Mark
Hi,
I GOT APPROVAL!!! i get to go to a conference in nyc... FINALLY i return home :)
Ok now, what hotel do you guys/gals/aliens recommend? I was thinking of staying near times square/broadway area...
crowne plaza on 49th and bway?
I have also stayed at the roger williams on 33rd and lex and enjoyed it...
Any help is appreciated.. also perhaps we could do a railfan trip while i am home :)
I CAN SMELL THE BAGELS ALREADY
Thanks :)
Ok now, what hotel do you guys/gals/aliens recommend?
You forgot to mention swine, like me.
1) Where is the conference held at?
2) Who is paying for the lodging, you or your company?
After that we can narrow down our recommendation.
Phil Hom
If you are paying for it yourself I can recommend exactly how to bid on Priceline (area and star combinations) to get an excellent 4* like the waldorf Astoria or W or Intercontinental Barclay at 90 or so dollars a night (75% off).
Here's how I'd do it. Using Priceline you can save 75% on a 4* hotel, the best NYC has to offer. Priceline allows you to up your bid little by little if you change one thing on a failed bid so starting low you can get awesome deals. Here's my strategy:
The **** hotels priceline is known to have in NYC are:
Midtown East Zone: W, Waldorf, Barclay, Drake Swissotel, Grany Hyatt, Millennuim UN Plaza
Midtown South: Morgans Hotel
Midtown West: Central Park Intercontinental, Warwick, LaParketMeridien, NY Hilton and Towers, Marriott Marquis, Westin Essex House, Renaissance, Sheraton Towers, Millennium Broadway
Upper East Side: Stanhope, Regency
There seem to be no priceline 4*'s coming up for less than 85 bucks so start at $85.
Bid 1 - ****, $85, 1 or more of the areas above you want to stay in.
...if that fails...
Bid 2 - ****, $90, The areas in bid 1 plus JFK airport (JFK has no 4* hotels so by adding it you are geting a free rebid in the areas you want.)
...if that fails...
Bid 3 - ****, $95, The areas in bid 1 plus LaGuardia airport (again, has no 4* hotels so you are geting a free rebid.)
...if that fails...
Bid 4 - ****, $100, The areas in bid 1 plus Newark airport (again, has no 4* hotels so you are geting a free rebid.)
...if that fails...
Bid 5 - ****, $105, The areas in bid 1 plus Newark airport and JFK airport
...if that fails...
Bid 6 - ****, $110, The areas in bid 1 plus Newark airport and Laguardia airport
...if that fails...
Bid 6 - ****, $115, The areas in bid 1 plus JFK and Laguardia airport
...if that fails...
Bid 7 - ****, $120, The areas in bid 1 plus all 3 airports
If that fails wait 3 days and start again at a higher price base.
Let me know how it works out as this took me a while to type in for you.
Good luck.
BTW, the Crowne Plaza you mentioned is only a 3* and is in the Midtown east zone and shows a 169.00 best rate. You can do much better than that rate with a much superior 4*.
Here is the discount web site I use www.180096hotel.com
Click on New York, enter your arrival date, # of nights, # of beds, # of people, click on "sort on price" on the right side.
What does OT mean in your message?
Michael
Off Topic (from subtalk)
Because there is so much talk about this, anyone who's interested, there is an article in Newsday today with artists remenderings of some ideas for the new WTC.
Building 2 70-story towers is a cop-out. I say, if you build office towers, they should be at least as tall if not taller than the Twin Towers were.
Here's my idea: Build a needle, similar to the CN Tower in Toronto, complete with observation decks at the top. This would be the "World Trade Center Memorial Tower" and serve to remind us of the soaring heroism we exhibited in the face of the disaster. The needle would point skyward reminding us of the spirits of the innocent victims. Mounted at the top would be communications equipment as before, which would be a source of revenue. It would not be an attractive target for terrorists, since it would not be an office tower with thousands at work inside, and the terrorists would need the antennae anyway to provide media exposure for their (God forbid) next act. With this tower, people would be able to take an elevator to a point in the sky higher than they had been able to in the Twin Towers, and higher than the planes' points of impact, and higher than anywhere in the world. This would symbolically show terrorists that we can rise above them.
I agree completely. I like the idea of a needle as the memorial.
And the footprint of the needle would not be that large so as to allow commercial and residential development in areas surrounding the base. I would suggest this to the Manhattan Redevelopment Corp. if I could find an address. Last I heard, they have $2BB but no offices yet.
Why does everyone keep wanting residential space in the new WTC? Its freaking WALL ST. Living is for the suburbs, Wall St. is for working and making money.
Tell that to the 10,000 people that live in Battery Park City.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why does everyone keep wanting residential space in the new WTC? Its freaking WALL ST. Living is for the suburbs, Wall St. is for working and making money.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG! Oh, so wrong.
Mixed-use is what keeps NYC a vital and living city. It's precisely your prescription -- separate residence and workspace -- that leads to the decimated hollow downtowns of most midsize US cities.
Making downtown a place that people want to be outside of 9-5 is the key to keeping revenues coming in. Use some of the space for offices, some for residences, some for culture (performance, museum, etc.), some for public amenities (parks) ... and you draw people into the space 24 hours a day.
Mixed use simply works BETTER. Why do you think BPC is half office (WFC) and half residential? Because lots of the people who work in those offices LOVE living there.
You'll always have a large number of downtown workers who want their quarter-acre of green grass, or more conventional suburban school districts, or whatever. But offering residential and MIXING UP THE USES is vital to building a city that will endure.
Cities are crime ridden, overcrowded, pollution filled, smog covered hell holes that nobody in their right mind would ever want to live in if they did'nt have to. The sooner everyone realizes that the better. No sence exporting all that crap everywhere. Let's keep it in the cities and keep the rest of the country nice and clean.
Cities are crime ridden, overcrowded, pollution filled, smog covered hell holes that nobody in their right mind would ever want to live in if they did'nt have to. The sooner everyone realizes that the better. No sence exporting all that crap everywhere. Let's keep it in the cities and keep the rest of the country nice and clean.
When you make these kinds of jokes, it helps if you use emoticons ... like :) or ;) or whatever.
That saves the majority of folks who feel cities might have a redeeming value here or there from wanting to respond and waste SubTalk space.
I was serious there. I have a low opinion of cities. That's why I didn't go to Penn ot Johns Hopkins. Too urban.
That, or you couldnt get in to either.
I was accepted at both.
I forgot to change out the cookie on my PC. That post was from me.
Again, I forgot to change out the cookie on my PC. That post was from me.
Mike, you are amazing SubTalk, if it is about anything it is about THE C*I*T*Y in other words, if you hate cities, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE???
Visiting.
I agree with this. I would like to add that if more people lived near their jobs, they could walk to work, and that would reduce traffic.
that if more people lived near their jobs, they could walk to work
And/or take the many SUBWAYS throughout Manhattan, contributing equally to cutting traffic.
Although walking is a major form of commuting in Manhattan and other dense boroughs. I learned that more people walk to work in my community board (CB6) than anywhere else in NYC, and hence by extensions almost surely anywhere else in the US of A.
Nonsense. NYC has 8 million residents; Manhattan has 1.5 million residents. Some of us don't see the need to start up the car to obtain a carton of milk. Besides, if we all went through the suburb-to-city commute every day, imagine how overburdened the commuter rail systems would be.
The problem is that the needle has been done. NYC used to have a unique and instantly recognizable skyline. Now it doesn't. Stealing one from Toronto won't help. In case everyone forgot, the WTC towers were really cool, beautiful and exceedingly photogenic. They were built to show off the greatness of the city, not for economic reasons and this is what should be done again.
They were built to show off the greatness of the city, not for economic reasons and this is what should be done again.
Yes, they were built to show off, but there was an economic need to keep all the trade offices in one location to make communication easier and centralized, otherwise they would be spread out all over the place.
but there was an economic need to keep all the trade offices in one location to make communication easier and centralized
Although as the WTC book I read pointed out, this was the political justification for the complex but wasn't true in reality. Their brokers had a hell of a time getting those small world-trade companies to rent WTC space: They didn't need/couldn't afford Class A space, and often didn't want to be down the hall from their competitors. And with the rise of info technology in the '80s and '90s, they didn't need to be in NYC at all -- faxes and e-mail made it possible to do from almost anywhere.
Remember, the largest tenant when the WTC opened was the State of NY.
Of course, my needle would be of different design than Toronto's. I was thinking of a design reminiscent of a large, single "eternal" flame, not straight-up-and-down like the CN Tower or the Seattle Space Needle, but thinner at the bottom, thicker in the middle, and pointed at the top, (like a candle flame in mid-flicker). Each side and edge would rise in a slight spiral as opposed to straight up. The top of the needle would be in plumb-line with the epicenter of the tower-base, but nothing else about the tower would be in-line vertically. Think helix. I believe this might be possible with today's technology. (Forgive me, I'm not an architect.) The structure would rise from whatever boxy new buildings are built near its base. It would keep us mindful of the conflagration on 9/11, but also evoke that "eternal flame" concept seen on a small scale in Gettysburg and Arlington National Cemetery.
If you really want to go for symbolism, how about moving the Statue of Liberty up there? Build the 60-story towers, connect them at the top with a new pedestal, then put the statue on top of that. (It can't be too hard, since they got it here from France in the 1800's.)
For another one, how about a giant eagle perched atop a space-needle type thing? It might have to be made hollow to deal with weight requirements (and would limit the height of the tower), but you could see it for miles around (if not by naked eye then certainly with binocs from a great distance).
Another idea - engrave the names of each and every single one of the victims (about 3,000 - wait unti the final count comes out) on a stone about six inches high. When you build the tower, these stones are put up, one above the other. You start at the peak of the 60-story office buildings and go up from there. The resultant height of the tower would be about 2,300 to 2,400 feet, making it the tallest free-standing (in fact, guyed or not) structure in the world, and 1,000 feet taller than the old towers. Then build a SLOOOOOW elevator that takes about an hour to go up from the 60th floor to the top, so riders can read each and every name on the way up. (You'd also have a fast elevator, of course.) It's sort of like the Vietnam Memorial, only vertical.
Just some ideas to throw out onto the table...
>>> the WTC towers were really cool, beautiful and exceedingly photogenic <<<
Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. When the WTC was built it was roundly criticized as an ugly monstrosity out of place with its surroundings, and architecturally bland. The WTC became a symbol of New York only because after the passage of time, a majority of the people did not know the skyline without it, and therefore accepted it with affection as they would an ugly grandparent. While the method of destruction is rightly condemned, it certainly does not follow that what should be built there must or should resemble the WTC.
Tom
Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. ... While the method of destruction is rightly condemned, it certainly does not follow that what should be built there must or should resemble the WTC.
Well said, Tom... I agree 100%.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also they kinda stuck out like sore thumbs when first built [like some of those HORRIBLE towers n places like Atlanta or Dallas or someplace],with really nothing around to give perspective to them..what REALLY happened was that they built Battery Park City,the World Financial Center,etc, a neighborhood 'grew up' around it,the towers had more of of a 'fit'.
Yes, this is what we should have there. This way the buildings in the new WTC site could be 50-70 stories, but are not forced to be taller than they need to be for usage reasons. I think this needle should be the tallest structure in the world. It could have various observation decks and restaurants, as well as a WTC museum and memorial at the base of it. How amazing it would be to stand near the bottom of this great needle and look up to the top of it! If there were no offices in it, then it would not be a symbol of our economy, only a memorial.
Mounted at the top would be communications equipment as before, which would be a source of revenue.
And all the communications support offices could be waaay underground.
The needle would point skyward reminding us of the spirits of the innocent victims.
I've always thought that whatever is built there should be like this. This is what NYC and America is all about - "The sky's the limit." That is why the Empire State and Chrysler buildings are designed like they are. When people look at the buildings, they keep looking up past the spires to the sky, making them true Skyscrapers.
I have envisioned some sort of memorial sculpture soaring like a dove that is high enough that everyone has to look up to see it. Of course, it shouldn't resemble a plane, or maybe it should?
I love it too. Now how can this be made into an official recomendation. It seems to be the perfect compromise.
I am glad someone thought of that. I was thinking about something similar, such as 4 "mini towers" on the corners and a CN Tower/SpaceNeedle type thing in the center. Windows on The World II could be at the top. I'd enjoy something like that.
I as well as many of us want to see 2 towers standing just as high and proud as the WTC 1 and 2--but honestly, what company would want to lease space up there--moreover--who would want to work that high now???? Tony
<<
I as well as many of us want to see 2 towers standing just as high and proud as the WTC 1 and 2--but honestly, what company
would want to lease space up there--moreover--who would want to work that high now????
>>
Excellent point.
And not only that, it has been stated time and again
that large skyscrapers are no longer the way to go. They are too expensive to build and will not be able to reach full occupancy in today's real estate market. You will have a very tall building with empty top floors. You will have proven nothing and find yourself in the red.
Besides, from what I am reading Larry Silverstein may be entitled to only 3.5 billion dollars (not 7 billion) if the insurers treat this as a single claim. That means there will be less money to play with.
The insurance issue is very much open. Silverstein claims there is a very similar precedent in New York law involving two consecutive acts of arson by the same person being treated as two events. The insurance companies claim (a) that's a different situation and (b) even if there had only been 1 plane the 2nd tower would have been unusable.
This one looks too iffy to predict. The court could easily go either way.
I side with the insurance companies on this.
A double helix, represnting the Human Gnome.
avid
I hope you meant Genome, not Gnome!
Right now, some SICK-O MAD Scientist is working with the human genome to produce a GNOME 8-O
Yippie.....
Yet another plan for a post-Clinton-era wimped out office park. Why the heck is everything this country doing today so damm limp?
Acela runs at a yesteryear 150mph for a whopping 20 miles. Every other HSR proposal is stuck in the 50's at 110mph.
Airbus is poised to unseat Boeing as the maker of the world's largest jetliner.
The R-142 gets reprogramed because they're "too fast"
Bush's new 'energy policy' includes trying to force us all into wimpy golf carts.
The 2nd ave line will take decades to build.
Someone farts in an airport and we evactuate the east coast.
We can't do anything because it might offend someone.
And now, the replacement for the 2nd and 3rd tallest buildings in the US is...
A freaking 70 story tall tower or two.
Come on. We get wacked by some dumb middle eastern terrorist, and what do we do? We wimp out. Yet again.
What's wrong with this country? We've stopped taking chances with anything. Come on - let's build a 2000 foot tall tower or two.
So what if a terrorist gets a hard-on over it and tries to blow it up. We've got enough megatons of nuclear to blast them back to the dinosaur age.
"Come on - let's build a 2000 foot tall tower or two."
I agree Phil, but for safety reasons, people might reject the anti-aircraft guns located on various parts of the tower.
"So what if a terrorist gets a hard-on over it and tries to blow it up. We've got enough megatons of nuclear to blast them back to the dinosaur age."
Thats the kind of unthought-out mentality that gets us into trouble. In case you forgot, we aren't the most heavily fortified country in the world. What a prime example of the arrogance of the American public.
Thats the kind of unthought-out mentality that gets us into trouble.
Nope, it's our very EXISTENCE that gets us into trouble. Do you suggest that to be perfectly safe, we not exist?
Someone will always hate us. Why? Because we're better than them. You suggest that we should stop being better than them so they won't hate us. I will not. America made it to where it is today by not cowering in fear from the LOSERS of the world. America will not advance any further if we decide to cower now. The loser countries that the terrorists come from (like Saudi Arabia, the most sociopolitically primitive country on Earth now that the Taliban is gone) don't have any tall skyscrapers, so instead of building their own (like Malaysia did, good for them), they decide to destroy what we have.
If we don't reach for the sky again, we'll be no better than Shitty Arabia.*
*Please do not construe my hatred of Shitty Arabia as hatred for Arabs or Muslims. However no theocracy deserves respect. The Shitty theocracy is even worse than that of Iran.
Well, Mr. Arrogance, nice to meet ya ;-)
Thank you. If our society has achieved a certain level of progress, it would be stupid to hide it in fear of a much more primitive society.
About two or three weeks ago the City of New Orleans donated a Brand New Fire truck to the city of New York. The funds were gathered by private citizens.
I beleive the same can be said of a town in Ohio. The funds came from the Tax payers. They gave up a new truck that they had needed.
We both, New York and New Jersey lost fine men and women in the Uniformed services. We lost sisters, brothers, daughters, sons, mothers, fathers and friends. We lost equipement as well. The rest of the nation shares and feels our lose.
I beleive the city and both states, NY and NJ could salute the contributions of these philadelphian cities by donating four columns from the WTC to be erected in one of their parks as a memorial to the people taken for this earth on Sept.11,2001.
It would be a stark, tall, square structure with the date and thanks of the WTC famlies.
Avid Reader
And DAMN if the SHRUB didn't put his OWN face in OTHER people's generosity by GRABBING OTHER PEOPLE'S GENEROSITY FOR HIMSELF after stiffing New York with the high hard one. The people in those communities gave of THEIR OWN GENEROSITY ... how DARE SHRUB steal their thunder after giving New York NOTHING ...
HYPOCRICY on this level IS unPRESIDENTED ... Where's the CASH, Shrub? Even Clinton didn't have such BALLS ... and we KNEW where those were ...
My faovrite are the North Dakotan kids that sent TONS of macaroni and cheese.
It is rather remarkable how things (codeword for $) shrink or disappear when it goes through the Middle man.
So I repeat that we the people return the goodwill with one of our own, before some admin type decides how to divie up the remains of the structural steal. I know its s t e E l.
avid
You can indicate intentional mispellings like this:
"...the remains of the structural steal (sic)."
Mark
tnx
avid
I know this is nitpicky, but it really gets on my nerves when the conductor on my LIRR train announces, upon arriving at Flatbush Avenue, "This is Flatbush Avenue, the last and final stop on this train."
"Last" and "final?" This is a huge illiterate redundancy, like saying "I live in a big house home" or "I'm taking my auto car to the shop."
Someone should tell those in control to cut it out already.
Back in the 1970's when I used to ride the F to 179th St., there was a certain conductor who would announce "This is the next an laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast stop. Sometimes he would hold that "last" for about 15 seconds!
Live messages are one thing that I miss on the new LIRR trains. I used to like when the conductor would come into the car and yell, "Greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat River, Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayville next". It just made the ride more personnal. It's the little things you remember.
What I think happened is that they started out saying "next and final stop" (which makes sense), then somehow it got corrupted over time. I've heard it on Metro-North as well. I agree, it is infuriating.
Maybe it isn't final enough. The conductor could add, "This is your last chance to get off the train. Please get off the train. Pretty please with sugar, strawberries and hot fudge on top."
:0)
If you really want to nitpick, try parsing out the announcements made at the airport by airline ticket agents....and by the on board flight attendants themselves. It's obvious they like to hear themselves speak with all their redundancies.
United used to have a seat-back emergency card that had in bold print, "IF YOU CAN'T READ THIS CARD, PLEASE INFORM A FLIGHT ATTENDANT." Uh, if you can't read it, how do you know you can't read it?
And their equivalent of "last and final stop" was, "If you're terminating here.." (Sheesh, I'm too young to die!)
So you can say, "Actually, I was already terminated. My boss handed me my final paycheck on the way to the airport. Do you think I could get my money back for this ticket?"
Reminds me of PA tests I have sometimes heard here at work ....
This is a test of the PA system. If you cannot hear this message, please inform your manager.
--Mark
That reminds me of the infamous DOS error message:
Keyboard error - press F1 to resume
That's not DOS, it's NT4, and it's true!!!
On Topic comment: Do MetroCard computers (which use NT) have keyboards?
If you're talking about the vending machine, they do, it's on a tray, locked up. If it wasn't locked up, hell would rise.
Each MVM has its own keyboard? That sounds like a waste of money. Why not keep one keyboard locked up in each station?
Keyboards are cheap - Micro Warehouse offers a 104-key PC-compatible keyboard for as little as $7.91 - so the aggravation of having to get the keyboard from wherever it's kept isn't worth the savings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Might be NT4, but it does occur in DOS. Since NT4 is just a shell, goes to show you Windows people what you're really using.
NT4 isn't a shell, it's the whole operating system. Windows 9x is a shell.
It makes sense, one would have to restore keyboard function before doing anything with the computer.
Not true. For most purposes, an input device of some sort is necessary, but the keyboard specifically may be optional. (There's a fair amount I can do on my computer -- say, read SubTalk -- with a mouse and a network connection as my only functional input devices.) For specialized purposes, an input device of any sort might be unnecessary.
And their equivalent of "last and final stop" was, "If you're terminating here.." (Sheesh, I'm too young to die!)
Well if that city is their home, they might die there eventually, so the airline is correct :)
Along the same lines are the call boxes on California freeways. They have instructions in Braille! (As do the drive-up windows at McDonalds!!!)
>>> Along the same lines are the call boxes on California freeways. They have instructions in Braille! <<<
From some of the driving I have seen on the freeways I would say those instructions are warranted.
Tom
Do windshields come in Braille?
:0)
The braille on the drive thru windows makes sense, you've never heard of passengers doing the ordering?
For the same reason, the braille on the highway callboxes makes sense too. Are the only people on a highway drivers? No. Therefore, it is well within the realm of possibility that passengers, including blind ones, will have to use a callbox.
And if the car carried a passenger, it is more likely the driver would stay behind and send the passenger to the phone, especially if the passenger cannot drive.
Speaking of parsing announcements, the CTA's courtesy message is one of the more illiterate of these canned messages. It says "Smoking, littering, and playing radios or loud devices is prohibited." How about, "Smoking, littering, and playing radios or using loud devices are prohibited"? Maybe somebody else has a better idea about what is done with loud devices; I figured you don't play them, but "using" is somewhat generic. At least that "are" would make it so that we aren't prohibited from smoking radios or loud devices!
Yeah, what if someone has a loud vibrator.....
LOL.........................
Take it up with the Department of Redundancy Department.
:-) Andrew
Ok ok ok. Here's what I figure....
Last and final means the train's terminating here, and not going back in the other direction anytime soon.
To me 'last and final stop on this train' means the train is going out of service and you are at the end of the line. 'Last stop' means the train is going to turn around and go the other way. 'Final stop' means the train is going out of service. Not 100% redundant but close.
Matters such as this are handled by the Department of Redundancy Department, which handles matters such as this.
You'll have to lodge an official complaint with the Department of Redundancy Department, Mitch...
I was looking for the DofRD, but all I could find was an authentic replica -- a genuine imitation. It was very unique.
Hoo boy. We should get back on topic. Or is it in topic? Such as, "Passengers are prohibited from crossing upon or entering the track."
ON topic. IN line.
>>"Passengers are prohibited from crossing upon or entering the track." <<
That has bigger problems than just redundancy...
How exactly does one *enter* a track? You can step on one, over one, or possibly limbo under one, and I suppose you could be impaled by one. But how does your body actually enter inside the track?
It must be rather unpleasant - I don't think anybody needs a warning to not enter into a track.
Some people expect to hear "last stop". Other people expect to hear "final stop". Some may not know that they are the same thing (non-English-speaking tourists). So the conductor says both, hoping to serve people whose friend told them "---- --- 'LAST STOP' --- ---- --- ---."
About the movie title "Money Train", you know at the end of the movie where the Money Train used in the movie crashed on the back of the (B) passenger train, was the passenger train a Redbird?
If so, why is it on a BMT line with an IRT train to Coney Island? Because of the Redbird was a retired train.
By the way, is the IRT fleet compatible with the BMT/IND lines?
I don't think there is a problem with the IRT physically running on the B division. Practically though the trains are too narrow and people would fall between the platform and the train.
As for why is the Redbird going to Coney Island, remember it is Hollywood.
I know it's Hollywood, but was that Redbird a retired train?
The movie used retired R-30s, B-division "Redbirds." The rest of the movie is one big inaccuracy, though :).
Yes, I know that, because the (6) doesn't go to IRT (Lexington) Wall Street, the (B) doesn't operate the Redbird. I think they just used a computer to produce this movie.
No; they were real retired R-30s on a Hollywood set. See "Subway Bibliography" on this site for confirmation.
Do any of the studios in Hollywood own any old subway cars? What did they do with the red R30 after they were done filming?
There were sightings of R-27/30s in La-La Land in the past... can any of our California correspondents give us an update?
It would be interesting to find out. Where is salaamallah to help with this?!
Yes i saw them at the CORNFIELDS here in LA back in the early 1990s !!
Damnit.. i did not go down there to squeeze off some shots ( sigh )
I do wish i did because i took for granted they would still be preserved here somewhere ......
A BIG MISTAKE ....now the pasadena GOLD LINE is being built thru the UNION PACIFIC " cornfields " rail road yards today !!
( hope dat' helps ) ...lol !!
i will post some of the cornfields pics later tonight ....lol !!
they were on the union pacific cornfields yards ... back then ....
Salaamallah, where are the R27/30's today?, i mean the ones they
used for money train movie?.
the survivors were moved to a movie lot visable from the 134 - 5 freeways in glendale
the dissapeared from that lot ( sigh )
If my wish was made they would be where the red line is now on museum trips !!
oh man that would b a real .......lol!!
unfortunately & however I do have current cornfields photos where the r30s used .2. .B.
the pasadena gold line construction area(s)..
They did the filming at "Cornfield" yard, which is just northeast of the Chinatown section of Los Angeles. After the filming, the fake subway was removed, the yard sold by owner Southern Pacific, and is now an industrial park.
There were about 12 real R27/30's and about half a dozen fake ones. The fake ones were actually made of wood and were torn apart in either the filming itself or shortly thereafter. Eight of the real cars were then taken out to Colton (about 55 miles east of LA) and scrapped by a local railcar scrapper. They did not last long.
The other four were brought about five miles north to Glendale, and were hauled from the rails about 500' to the back lot of a Warner Brothers facility. (The building closest to where they sat now says "Barwick Studios" on it but it is a separate operation from WB.) The four cars were used for something, unknown what, and I photographed them in November, 1999. In early 2001, they were cut up/scrapped and today there is no evidence of them ever being there.
The cars there were numbered 8275 and 8401 in the "redbird" paint scheme. The car with 8401 on it had some other number on the cab door interior, either 8297 or 8397 (I checked through the zoom lens on my camera when I photographed them; the bottom 2/3 of the second digit was removed.) It could NOT have been 8401 as the REAL 8401 is at Coney Island for fire training. The other two cars' numbers could NOT be verified as they were in blue/silver and were heavily grafittied. The blue/silver cars were not on their trucks; the trucks were stored in another corner of the lot.
Yet another wave of hope, followed by despair sweeps through the subtalk community as a phantom cache of R27/30s evaporates in cyberspace.
avid
they just had to destroy them instead of giving them to the orange empire museum ....
How did they get them to California. I assume by rail. Anyone seen any photos of this happening?
Thanks Steve, for your input. Your info goes along nicely with my earlier posting about the R-27/30's used in 'Money Train'.
BMTman
do you still have that picture ??
Columbia Pictures was the studio that made 'Money Train', so for a while AFTER the movie came out they still had possession of several subway cars (i.e., a few R-27/30s + the customized R-21 that was used as the armor-plated money collection train).
If my memory is correct, one of the Redbirds was used in a short scene in another Wesley Snipes' movie called 'Blade' (interior shots only). An entire train of them was computer generated for the film when you see them running through a tunnel.
I believe a regular here at SubTalk who lives in southern Cali used to see those R-27/30's sitting in a lot off in the distance while driving on the LA Freeway. I believe the lot was a studio 'junk yard' somewhere in Glendale (a suburb of LA).
Also, keep in mind that there were TWO 'Money Train' cars used in the movie. One was kept in standard NYCT motive-power (meaning it ran on thirdrail contact), while another was shipped to LA for the bulk of filming where it was converted to gasoline power (four Chevy engines were used to move the car when needed). Since the California scenes were shot on unused Southern Pacific tracks, thirdrail Ops was out of the question.
Hope that helps...
BMTman
...while another was shipped to LA for the bulk of filming where it was converted to gasoline power (four Chevy engines were used to move the car when needed).
Wow, I didn't know about that one! Any idea what happened to it? I wouldn't mind acquiring one of those to haul the groceries :).
Talk about extra large SUV's......................
I wonder what kind of mileage it gets??????
Make an offer....it sits in the CI yard. CI Peter
The silver "money train" is in Coney Island Yard, or it least it was about a year and a half ago.
It's still there AFAIK. That was the one used in NYC filmed scenes (like the quick shot of it running over the Manhattan bridge).
BMTman
Oh, so there were two of them one here and one in California.
El Correcto...
Thats one powerful Doodlebug!
avid
The real money trains were late night junkers. The movie train still sits in the Coney Island yard complete with its turrets. CI Peter
They did NOT "use a computer" as you suggest. Hollywood just doesn't always get things perfectly correct. And, 99.999% of the people watching the movie wouldn't know the difference anyway. There are very few of us subway enthusiasts out there in relation to the general film-watchign audiences.
The cars used were REAL NYCTA SUBWAY CARS (plus some fake ones made to match). As I mentioned in another post, they did bring about a dozen or so out to Los Angeles. After the filming, most were scrapped and four of them lasted into early 2001 at another studio backlot in Glendale, California.
The "subway" in much of the filming was fake -- a wooden set constructed in an abandoned Southern Pacific rail yard northeast of downtown Los Angeles. It was dismantled after filming of "Money Train" and "Die Hard: With A Vengeance". And, yes, there WERE some scenes filmed in REAL NYCTA SUBWAY STATIONS.
Everyone has got to remember that these movies are made for entertainment, not a factual account of the subway. As you said 99.9% don't care if the subway scenes were accurate (correct trains, lines in stations, etc.) Come on, it's Hollywood, not a documentary on the subway. Let's just be happy they use the subway once in a while.
I see. Because I kind of find that most recent movies seem to be using made through computer animation.
You guys don't read my posts: the money train of the movies was pointed out to us at the Coney Island yards in SEPTEMBER. Gun turrets and all. CI Peter
Such as Union Square on the IRT disguised as Wall St.
Yeah, that was an obvious one. Which station did they use in the scene where the guy tries to set the token booth on fire?
I would think it would be on a Hollywood sound stage with people holding CO2 bottles off camera along side with a fire inspector.
I thought they were IRT Redbirds?
The R27-R30's were also painted like redbirds just before they were retired.
Is the real money train used by the MTA armed (bullet proof)?
That's a good question. I think it's just some junky retired IRT car, I forgot what type though.
There are 5 "Money Trains," pairs of R-21/22 cars.
Sorry, bad HTML. I will use the Preview button, I will use the Preview button...
There are 5 "Money Trains," pairs of R-21/22 cars. They look like this. As has been discussed here, they will likely be phased out and replaced with armored trucks.
Thanks, very interesting. Not at all the glorified silver thing from the movie!
I would like to see one of them saved as is ... well I would leave the bars on the windows & her in yellow with black stripes, but scrape the paint off the windows & probally re-install seats inside (she would have to earn her keep at Branford).
Or a R-15, with those little fans inside. That would be a AFC vs. a St. Louis, BUT I think they are only rider cars (no ability to run on her own without find all the removed parts). Well at least the TA museum has a R-12 & R-15 ... maybe someday they'll run on a fan trip with the R-33 in World's Fair colors ... wouldn't that be nice !
Mr rt__:^)
If they could put the parts back in which were supposedly cannibalized, they'd have a ready-made 4-car IRT SMEE consist.
Nor are the real "Money Trains" guarded by automatic rifle-toting SWAT cops. In my soujourns in the subway on many a late night in college, I noticed an alarming number of morbidly obese African-American women with .38 revolvers collecting the money. Not nearly as meanacing as the guys in the movie, but I still wouldn't want to mess with them.
LOL.....................
B Division had their own Redbirds which were R-27/30's done up in the same paint scheme as the A Division Redbirds. I believe they all went to the scrapper about 10 years or so ago.
The movie crew bought a few of them from NYCT and used them throughout the movie no matter what line they were representing.
BMTman
If the BMT/IND Redbirds were retired in 1993, operating since 1960; how come they didn't have the lifespan of the IRT Redbirds (R26,R28,R29) of almost 40 years?
>>If the BMT/IND Redbirds were retired in 1993, operating since 1960; how come they didn't have the lifespan of the IRT Redbirds (R26,R28,R29) of almost 40 years?<<
Lack of air conditioning spelled their early retirement. No, retrofitting them for A/C like the Redbirds would be too expensive at their age.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since when did the IRT Redbirds (R26, R28, R29, [R33, R36 including the WF cars]) have A/C?
The first experiments that led to success were conducted in the early 1970s with various types of air-conditioning systems (earlier tests had been done in the 1950s but did not work well). The program to retrofit the R-26 through R-36 cars (except the single R-33s) was started in 1977 and completed in 1982.
David
Plus adding A/C would have increased their weight to BMT standard proportions.
Is that why the BMT/IND Redbirds failed to add A/C? Therefore they were forced to retire prematurely.
"Money Train" had as much to do with the subway as my nephew's bathtub tugboat has to do with the Queen Mary.
Cover article in this week's New York Press is about a 38 hour ride through the entire subway system.
"What a great idea...Take the most frustrating, boring and uncomfortable part of your day, and do it for a whole weekend!"
Interesting...but they should've checked their facts more carefully.
ie;>>>While the IRT was excavating the tunnel for our 4 train in 1905, a sandhog named Dick Creedon ran to a blowout with his bag of sand.<<<
His name was Richard Creegin.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, I've never seen the restroom at 36 St/4 Ave closed (and as such, haven't ventured into the Cuban joints at 3 AM :)).
I got a new copy of "The Map" the other day and it showed some stations on the Port Jervis line with "shortline" printed under them. What does that mean?
Shortline is the connecting bus serivice that serves these stations. You'll notice that other LIRR and Metro-North stations have bus route numbers under the station name. Same thing.
I was riding on the train today and saw an ad in Spanish concerning the rerouting of December 16th. It reminded me of something I saw at the entrance to the Jamaica Center station. On the walls of the stairwells, there are signs that say "Be safe use handrails." What kind of grammar is this? It isn't. It's just four words pasted on the sign. An easy fix for this: "Be safe. Use handrails."
It's not just in English; grammatical errors are also popping up in the Spanish ads, too. Here's an example:
(F) tiene cuatro nuevas parada
The literal English translation would be "(F) has four stop new."
A better translation into Spanish would be "(F) tiene cuatro paradas nuevas."
Another one I've seen also concerning the December 16th service changes follows.
Text: (G) Cambios de Servicio Mayores
Literal: (G) Changes to Service Majors
Correct: (G) Mayores Cambios del Servicio.
Are there any other grammar mistakes you can find in the subway?
Sloppy writing and editing. People don't pay attention nowadays - they're too busy rushing work out the door.
I once bought a programming book which had over 200 pages of errors in it. I had to go through a lot of corrections posted, over time, on a website. It's a shame.
Must have been a Microsoft product. I work with Access quite often and the bugs I find would drive you up a wall!
Actually, it was Borland's Java. But your point is well-taken.
Once the display sign in a SEPTA tunnel showed a message about trolley re-routings and "trolleys" was mispelled "trollies."
Mark
Such is the educational level of the people who do the writing.
Kind of scary, isn't it.
Generation gap to ya oll: GI German. CI Peter
My dad spoke GI German - silliest usage had to be at DisneyWorld in '86, carrying on a three-sided conversation with Goofy at one of the restaurants in the Contemporary Resort. Since he couldn't talk, Goofy got a pen and paper and pulled up a chair.
Sometimes, the grammar and spelling on this board is a hoot.
I was wondering if someone would step into that one!
the debil made me do it!
Sometimes, the grammar and spelling on this board is a hoot.
Oh, yeah? I want proff!
The story goes in my family, way back, one of my great-great-great-great grammars was a single parent. That doesn't make her a bad grammar! Does it?
avid
"Sometimes, the grammar and spelling on this board is a hoot."
Sometimes the writer is either not an American, or English is not a first language. This we can excuse or ignore. Other errors made by people who should know better reflect poorly on them and or their education. If you are in school, you should attempt to write correctly here and everywhere else. The better jops (or positions) go to those who are litterate.
Elias
The better jops (or positions) go to those who are litterate.
When you are literate (Shakespeare, King James Bible and Spenser stuff), you do become polite.
So. Are we to assume they all need to spend $3.00 or so as their subway fare?
JOPS???
Peace,
ANDEE
Not for nuthin, but wouldn't it be
"Cambios mayores del servicio"...
CG
One grammar pet peeve I have is when people write plurals with an apostrophe (however that is spelled) like this: "Get the car's here"
The ONLY time an apostrophe should be used in "its" is when it is a contraction of "it is." There is NO SUCH THING as its' with an apostrophe at the end. I've seen this on subway ads (there! on topic!)
And as we all know, a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with :-)
The ONLY time an apostrophe should be used in "its" is when it is a contraction of "it is"
It's been raining.
Hmmmmmm... last time I checked, that was a contraction of it HAS not it IS.
My fourth grade English teacher always said that there was an exception to every rule.
My fourth grade English teacher always said that there was an exception to every rule.
That's weird.
[My fourth grade English teacher always said that there was an exception to every rule.
That's weird.]
I was hoping that someone would notice that "weird" IS the exception to the rule "i before e except after c or when sounded as a as in neighbor and weigh"
True, Alex. And even that rule has an exception.
>>> My fourth grade English teacher always said that there was an exception to every rule. <<<
The correct expression is: "The only rule without exception is that there are no rules without exceptions."
Tom
Tom,
Not to steal your thunder but your post is, ironically, grammatically incorrect!! :+))
The "correct" correct expression is: "The only rule without exception is the one which states that there are no rules without exception."
Just so you know.
Tunnel Rat
>>> your post is, ironically, grammatically incorrect <<<
That does not bother me. I find the logical inconsistency more interesting.
Tom
Why not say...
It's raining or
It has been raining
i prefer the pluperfect, myself.
As an English major, I will put an end to this thread.
--- "It's" signifies "it is" AND "it has."
Examples:
1. It's raining in Canarsie according to WCBS Newsradio 880's Todd Glickman. In this example "it's" is a contraction of "it is."
2. It's been raining in Canarsie according to WCBS Newsradio 880's Todd Glickman. In this example "it's" is a contraction of "it has."
It is acceptable English to use it's for it has; however it would be considered more formal in written English to spell out the words separately than to use the contraction.
"It's" never signifies the possesive.
Tunnel Rat
And as we all know, a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with :-)
You should also try to not split infinitives.
This is now officially termed the "greengrocer's apostrophe" from the peculiar spellings adopted by greengrocers (especially NYC greengrocers, and most especially the Korean ones), as with "apple's, 49¢ lb".
I am told that Europeans, especially Germans, like to add apostrophe esses to give a sophisticated foreign flavor to certain names, rather like the use of umlauts by Blue Oyster Cult or Hagan Daz ice cream.
It would be really cool to catch a ride on the Ä train, and then transfer to the Ø train.
Maybe on the Oslo metro.
Mark
Sorry, but the Oslo metro has lines 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
-- Tim
However, it is worse when they miss an apostrophe. For instance the syntax of a sign I once saw:
THE DOOR STORES OPEN
my pet peeve is that we have a whole generation of graduates who do not know when to use 'me' and 'i'. so, they cop out and use 'myself'.
for example, 'my company and myself wish you a merry christmas'.
that one drives me up a tree.
'my company and myself wish you a merry christmas'
No, sadly in this age the above sentence would be (politically) corrected to:
Wishing you Season's Greetings.
Hell, I'd (almost) tolerate bad grammar if I were to see more Christmas cards and less Happy Holidays cards.
What really frosts my corn flakes, in addition to the examples given, is the incorrect use of ' and " in printed signage or formal written presentations. A ' mark means foot or minute and an " mark means inch or second. Neither denotes a quotation or sub-quote. On a PC-compatible keyboard, they can be accessed using ALT+0145 through ALT+0148 (keypad only). Not always advisable for Web-based or online messaging due to different character sets, but for print, abusing these is unforgivable in my book (pun intended).
I suppose it doesn't help that I'm married to a proof reader, eh?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
(and hopefully typo-free after all this!)
Wheres' da PROFF?
Wheres' da PROFF?
Well, I've got about 80 Proof in the glass of 17 Y.O. Bowmore that I'm sipping at the moment, but I don't know where the Proff is, however < grin >.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
That scotch is almost as old as I am! :)
Then you cannot have any.
'my company and myself wish you a merry christmas'
No, sadly in this age the above sentence would be (politically) corrected to:
Wishing you Season's Greetings.
Hell, I'd (almost) tolerate bad grammar if I were to see more Christmas cards and less Happy Holidays cards.
The Seasons Greetings cards are more accurate than the Merry Christmas cards. Nearly all of the national Christmas celebrations are a reflection of the solstice holiday, and have nothing to do with Christ Mass.
Nevertheless, I say Merry Christmas all the time, even to people who obviously belong to non-Christian religions (I myself am not, and my family has never celebrated Christmas in any form).
As for myself, I don't see any reason to celebrate the shortest day of the year. I've always considered December to be the worst time of the year, it's usually dark and cold, and signifies the beginning of more darkness, coldness and solidified precipitation that usually falls slowly as opposed to those quick summer storms.
Christmas, Chanukah and Kwanzaa are all borne out of society's desire to make this bleak time brighter. That's why there are no holidays in the summer that aren't historical events that occurred on a known date, summer is its own holiday.
Hell, I'd (almost) tolerate bad grammar if I were to see more Christmas cards and less Happy Holidays cards.
I agree, and I'm Jewish. I find it quite repulsive that Chanukah, which celebrates the victory of Judiasm against assimilation, has itself become Judaism's predominant target of assimilation. I can enjoy my holidays without pretending they're alternate versions of yours. Furthermore, the result is that every Jewish kid looks forward to Chanukah with glee (no problem so far!) while many haven't even heard of and certainly don't celebrate some of the holidays of Biblical origin, like Shavuos (or Shavuot, if you prefer -- there's a bit of dialectology for you). Our major holiday season comes around September (give or take a few weeks), not December; although I never mind a well-meaning holiday wish, I especially appreciate one for Rosh Hashanah.
...although I never mind a well-meaning holiday wish, I especially appreciate one for Rosh Hashanah.
Ditto. Drives our non-Jewish relatives and friends crazy, though, when we send out New Year's cards (and the annual family megillah, with a strange date that they don't understand) in September. (Of course, almost everything we do drives them crazy, so... you want like we should stop?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey...this is real New York, verstehan sie? What still remains foreign is the 'Hindu' holidays. LOL CI Peter
Hey...this is real New York, verstehan sie? What still remains foreign is the 'Hindu' holidays.
Yeah, but IIRC, this year the city began eliminating alternate side-of-the-street parking regs for Muslim holidays as well. We're getting there.
You send out a megillah in September? Kohelet, perhaps, although that's usually in October.
OK, David, looks like I need another Hebrew lesson :-) I was using the term megillah in the colloquial sense of long letter telling a story. I'm not familiar with the term kohelet and my Hebrew-English dictionary doesn't have a word that's even remotely transliterated that way. Help!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
<< I'm not familiar with the term kohelet and my Hebrew-English dictionary doesn't have a word that's even remotely transliterated that way. Help! >>
"Kohelet" (or koheles) is the Hebrew name for the Book of Ecclesiastes, one of three books historically attributed to King Solomon. Most modern scholars reject that attribution.
"Kohelet" (or koheles)
Or Qohelet, a more "propper" translitteration, since it begins with the Hebrew letter Quf.
:-) Andrew
Thanks guys. My dictionary doesn't have it either way, but it's not oriented to Biblical Hebrew either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about the Confederate Constitution? Sorry Anon, I just had to slip that in. Nothing personal you know, but if you've perusing the posts as they go by you'll notice that Sea Beach Fred and his train have taken a few hits as well. Have a good weekend.
Fred: You remember the Confederate Constitution? I didn't know you were that old. Could you please send me Lincoln's Gettyburg address. I have some mail to forward to him.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In addition to what others have contributed -- allow me to add that Kohelet is a megillah. The most famous megillah is, of course, Esther, and the term is used colloquially as you state. Customarily, Kohelet is read on the Shabbos of Succos (or the Shabbat of Sukkot, if you prefer -- it's more consistent that way, in any case), hence my October suggestion.
Ahh... the picture gets clearer... thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This isn't a bad grammar problem, but:
At the Fulton Street stop on the 1/2, there is a sign in the mezzanine stating: Downtown Beekman Hospital, 170 Williams Street. There is no such street - its actually William Street, not Williams.
At the Fulton Street stop on the 1/2, there is a sign in the mezzanine stating: Downtown Beekman Hospital, 170 Williams Street. There is no such street - its actually William Street, not Williams.
Like the infamous street signs, covered on SubTalk before, showing "BLEEKER STREET" without the "c".
or the "Brodaway" misspelling in the tile signs on the Broadway "G" line station :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Is it Beverly Road, or Beverley Road?
It's Beverley.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's both Beverley and Beverly.
I also cringe at stupid grammatical errors and misspellings on signs, especially the illiterate apostrophe. (And, regarding jrofrano's comment about the bad spelling and grammar on this board: true, but totally irrelevant, since we are discussing errors on professionally-produced signs.)
You cite some good examples of stupidity in English and Spanish. But, I must dispute your analysis of the last example:
Text: (G) Cambios de Servicio Mayores
Literal: (G) Changes to Service Majors
Correct: (G) Mayores Cambios del Servicio.
I believe the grammar is fine here.
You have two nouns, one singular (servicio) and one plural (cambios). Since the adjective (mayores) is plural, it must modify cambios. Therefore, there exists some freedom in the placement of the adjective relative to the noun it modifies.
So, "Cambios de Servicio Mayores" = "Mayores Cambios de Sevicio" = "Cambios Mayores de Servicio". Of the three, I believe the third is the most preferable, since the usual position of most adjectives is following the noun. But, again, I think all three versions would be grammatical.
Ferdinand Cesarano
"Therefore, there exists some freedom in the placement of the adjective relative to the noun it modifies."
Throw papa down the stairs his suspenders.
> Throw papa down the stairs his suspenders.
Yeah, and throw mama from the train
a kiss! (See, we're back on topic!)
- Lyle Goldman
The horse raced past the barn fell.
A pet-peeve of mine, having grown up outside of New York (and you often see this not only on subway notices, but also emblazoned on signs in the post offices, government offices, and just about anywhere people read or speak in New York City) is that infernal phrase, "on line," as in, "I was waiting on line for a token." The correct prepositional phrase is "in line," as in, "How long have you been waiting in line for a token?" This one is still like fingernails-on-a-blackboard to me.
When you are queued-up, you are not standing on a literal line on the ground. Rather, the situation of your body and bodies surrounding you, all facing approximately the same direction and occupying more space front-to-back than to the side is what forms a geometric line relative to your surroundings. Thus, the position of your body relative to the others in this circumstance evokes the description of "in line."
When I first moved to the city, I remember having a conversation with a co-worker who was talking about how she was "on line the other day..." I asked her, quite seriously, which Internet Service Provider she used. It took a couple of minutes for us to figure out what the other was talking about (or, should I say, to figure out about what the other was talking?). :O)
A pet-peeve of mine, having grown up outside of New York ... is that infernal phrase, "on line," as in, "I was waiting on line for a token." The correct prepositional phrase is "in line," as in, "How long have you been waiting in line for a token?" This one is still like fingernails-on-a-blackboard to me.
Whereas I see it as a charming NYC regional usage.
Another one is "graduated high school/college" rather than "graduated FROM high school/college". Same thing, though this one grates on me more.
Yes. 'Stand on line' is a delightful NYism. There are others. We all know what a duplex or triplex apartment means in New York, and what it means elsewhere, don't we? A really kinky one is 'terrace' for 'apartment balcony'.
Then there's the distinction of 'in the subway' vs 'on the subway'. On the subway = on a subway train; in the subway = not on a train but inside the subway system.
We all know what a duplex or triplex apartment means in New York
And even more esoterically, the concept of a Junior Four: A one-bedroom postwar apt with an L-shaped living room that can be converted to a second bedroom, thereby making a "four-room" apartment (LR, BR1, BR2 and kitchen, since apparently bathrooms don't count in the room count).
Back on topic: In my main bedroom I have far too much transit infrastructure-related material that I really ought to move to the converted second BR/study. [grin]
And even more esoterically, the concept of a Junior Four: A one-bedroom postwar apt with an L-shaped living room that can be converted to a second bedroom, thereby making a "four-room" apartment
Note also that the prewar/postwar distinction is meaningful only in New York.
And Lionel across the world.
avid
Then there's the distinction of 'in the subway' vs 'on the subway'. On the subway = on a subway train; in the subway = not on a train but inside the subway system.
I never knew of that one before.
In German, if you say "Riding on the subway" they will think you mean on the roof. The proper way is "Riding with the subway" Here, that would mean like you're running along side it.
Don't we say, "take the subway..."? Where will you put it after you take it?
Isn't Bad Grammar a German resort town?
The exact preposition to use in relation to travel can be tricky. It's on a train, on a boat, but in a car, in a railroad/subway car. The system that carries the vehicle tends to take 'on': on the road, on the tracks, on the water, but: in the air.
Getting back to the original question about 'subway Spanish', I've wondered why they don't the usual Newyorqueño word, el subway and be done with it.
Another one is "graduated high school/college" rather than "graduated FROM high school/college". Same thing, though this one grates on me more.
Perhaps they should not be allowed to until they can write the above sentence with preper grammar.
Of course, nobody would ever axe them to do that, now would they?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Perhaps they should not be allowed to until they can write the above sentence with preper grammar.
I'll beat you all to it...
...and proper spelling as well.
Sorry, I hit Post Message instead of Preview by accident.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Don't even get me started on "axe" for "ask."
I've read that insofar as Irish (Ireland) English goes, 'axe' is the usual pronunciation. The fancy word here is 'metathesis'.
*lol*
[NYC's waiting on line vs. waiting in line everywhere else]
I have the impression that this New York-ism is gradually fading away. Maybe it's a generational thing, with the on line usage found mainly among people over X years of age (I won't speculate as to what X is).
I'm 18, and I grew up using "on line". Moving to San Jose quickly changed that, but it sure was fun to watch the expressions of puzzlement on the natives' faces! They also like my "unique" pronunciations of "orange", "forest", and most other words with the OR sound.
--
Ian Penovich
"Is this Flarida you speak of somewhere near Florida?"
[NYC's waiting on line vs. waiting in line everywhere else]
I have the impression that this New York-ism is gradually fading away. Maybe it's a generational thing, with the on line usage found mainly among people over X years of age (I won't speculate as to what X is).
I live in New York, but I live on Long Island.
And those who live on LawnGuyLand get irritated when you remind them that Queens and Brooklyn are on the Island called Long. Yes, this is another NYism that has to be explained to outsiders.
Once upon a time, before the City was unified, the natives regarded Long Island as a geographic entity, and not something beyond the Queens County line (as I recall, Nassau is a rump of Queens, the part of Queens Cty that chose not to join NYC). Consider the name of Long Island College Hospital, at Atlantic Ave and the BQE, which has been there since the 1850s (Polhemus is a lovely antique building): hence its name.
"I live in New York, but I live on Long Island."
Yes, that one always bothers me out here in North Dakota, where people always say that one wrong.
But here we have a city named "Devil's Lake" which is located next to a body of water by the same name.
When ever anyone says that they were born in Devil's Lake, I keep thinking that maybe they are a FISH.
It is a salt water lake (sort of) with no outlet (yet), but the water is rising, and has been for many years. It is a slow-motion disaster, with hundreds of farms now under water, (but you must still pay taxes on the land, be it at the bottom of the lake or not). AMTRAK had to be re-routed recently while the tracks were raised.
The indians are very revrent of this lake, calling it Spirit lake. But because of the salty water, and tempermental windy conditions on the lake, it was also called "bad water". White explorers combined the bad with the spirit and came up with Devil's Lake which has been an offence to the Native Americans ever since.
Elias
>>I live IN New York, but I live ON Long Island. <<
Most islands are lived on, not in. Napoleon lived in exile on Elba. The F now stops on Roosevelt Island.
>>> Most islands are lived on, not in <<<
And how often do you hear someone say "I live in the Bronx but I work on Manhattan"?? :-)
Tom
how often do you hear someone say "I live in the Bronx but I work on Manhattan"?? :-)
Steve's point was about LIVING on an island, not working ... different verb, different usage.
>>> Steve's point was about LIVING on an island, not working ... different verb, different usage <<<
In that case, how many New Yorkers have you heard saying "I live on Manhattan"? .... Oops, I forgot, to a New Yorker Manhattan is not an island, it is the center of the universe surrounded by a moat. :-)
Tom
NY usage usually thinks of Manhattan as a political entity, as the borough. The preposition, then, is 'in'.
He works in [the Borough of] Manhattan.
Only rarely do we think of it as a geographical entity.
Plus not all of Manhattan is an Island. There was an extremely long post about Marble Hill a few weeks back. So "in Manhattan" would then be correct.
It works just like 'Great Britain'. Only rarely does one speak of it in a geographic sense, 'on GB'. Just about always, it's 'in GB', which speaks of the two kingdoms and one principality contained by the island.
>>> that infernal phrase, "on line," as in, "I was waiting on line for a token." <<<
That is not limited to New York, and can be attributed in part to places such as factories where a line is painted on the floor or sidewalk indicating where those waiting should stand. More annoying is the use of "on" instead of "for" as in "I'm waiting on my friend to get ready before we can leave."
Tom
A pet-peeve of mine, having grown up outside of New York (and you often see this not only on subway notices, but also emblazoned on signs in the post offices, government offices, and just about anywhere people read or speak in New York City) is that infernal phrase, "on line," as in, "I was waiting on line for a token." The correct prepositional phrase is "in line," as in, "How long have you been waiting in line for a token?" This one is still like fingernails-on-a-blackboard to me.
Well, I'm afraid you'll have to get used to it. Dialects vary, and you've picked up on one instance. (I never even noticed this one until a few years ago.) Take an elementary linguistics course. The correct prepositional phrase is defined by the native speakers of the language, not by a textbook, and I think it's clear that native speakers of the NYC dialect of English are in agreement that "on line" is perfectly acceptable.
When you are queued-up, you are not standing on a literal line on the ground. Rather, the situation of your body and bodies surrounding you, all facing approximately the same direction and occupying more space front-to-back than to the side is what forms a geometric line relative to your surroundings. Thus, the position of your body relative to the others in this circumstance evokes the description of "in line."
Give it up. Both forms are idiomatic usages.
Well, I'm afraid you'll have to get used to it. Dialects vary, and you've picked up on one instance. (I never even noticed this one until a few years ago.) Take an elementary linguistics course. The correct prepositional phrase is defined by the native speakers of the language, not by a textbook, and I think it's clear that native speakers of the NYC dialect of English are in agreement that "on line" is perfectly acceptable.
It may be "acceptable," but I still hold that it is not correct.
Just because people in Central PA, where I grew up, are fond of saying "Where are you at," instead of simply, "Where are you," doesn't make it right.
I defy you to show me the prepositional phrase "on line," as in "waiting on line" in a textual format such as a newspaper article, novel or textbook when not quoting a NY City "native speaker" or using the dialect purposely to refer in some way to or evoke the flavor of NY City. I expect the majority of editors would correct "on line" to "in line," except where an obvious reference to the NYC dialect is warranted.
(Please note that I'm not commenting on the understandability of the misuse of "on line," nor on the character or intellect of the people who use it. I hope I'm wrong, but you seem to take offense where none is intended.)
It may be "acceptable," but I still hold that it is not correct.
Impossible. As I suggested to you in my earlier post, take an elementary linguistics course. A language (or a particular dialect thereof) is defined by the acceptability judgments of its native speakers -- no more and no less. If native New Yorkers find a particular phrase absolutely acceptable, then that phrase is correct in their dialect of English, at least in certain registers (the more formal registers tend to exhibit less dialectical variation). You are not a native speaker of the dialect in question, so your judgment is irrelevant. (It becomes relevant the moment we ask about the grammaticality of a phrase in your native dialect of English, at which point my judgment suddenly becomes irrelevant.)
Just because people in Central PA, where I grew up, are fond of saying "Where are you at," instead of simply, "Where are you," doesn't make it right.
It might well be acceptable ("right," as you put it) in informal registers. I haven't taken a poll of native Central Pennsylvanians so I couldn't say for sure. It's certainly not acceptable in my dialect. It might be acceptable in some registers of yours.
I defy you to show me the prepositional phrase "on line," as in "waiting on line" in a textual format such as a newspaper article, novel or textbook when not quoting a NY City "native speaker" or using the dialect purposely to refer in some way to or evoke the flavor of NY City. I expect the majority of editors would correct "on line" to "in line," except where an obvious reference to the NYC dialect is warranted.
Articles and books tend to be written in a somewhat dialect-neutral form of the language (retaining Americanisms over Britishisms, however) so that nothing seems terribly strange to any of their (American) readers.
Language is most often (by an overwhelming margin) used in spoken form. If linguists restricted their attention to the printed word, we'd know very little about language.
(Please note that I'm not commenting on the understandability of the misuse of "on line," nor on the character or intellect of the people who use it. I hope I'm wrong, but you seem to take offense where none is intended.)
I take offense at the falsehoods spread by armchair linguists. Take a basic linguistics course or read an introductory linguistics book. (Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct is well-written and is targeted at the layman.)
"My Bad" Where did that come from? Did I miss that day in grade school?
www.engrish.com
Text: (G) Cambios de Servicio Mayores
Literal: (G) Changes to Service Majors
Correct: (G) Mayores Cambios del Servicio.
I think the correct phrasing of this is actually (G) Cambios Mayores del Servicio.
Dan
An easy fix for this: "Be safe. Use handrails."
"Be safe" and "Use handrails" are two closely related independent clauses, it should be: "Be safe; use handrails."
One time as a train was rolling into Queensboro Plaza, the station PA announced "Please DISCARD the signs; this train is an express."
Gee, if they want us to discard the signs, shouldn't they give us some tools so we can take them off before discarding them?
Every now and then you get an old-time native Noo Yawk conductor who'll say along the lines of "Would alla youze move outa da doors?" (As every Noo Yawker knows, 'youze' is the plural of 'you', just as how the French language uses 'vouz' as the plural of 'tu'.)
How about an old-time native Noo Jorsey Transet conductor?
"Will dis train take me to Manhanan?
Jeet yet?
Naw jew?
avid
You really love those icons huh?
Whaja av?
avid
>>> just as how the French language uses 'vouz' as the plural of 'tu' <<<
You must have been hearing a New Yorker speaking French. Both the singular and plural of "you" is "vous" pronounced "voo." "Tu" is the familiar form equivalent to "thou" in English. The familiar is not used in English as much as it is used in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
Tom
You must have been hearing a New Yorker speaking French. Both the singular and plural of "you" is "vous" pronounced "voo." "Tu" is the familiar form equivalent to "thou" in English. The familiar is not used in English
Is "thou" really the familiar in English? or "thee"?
In any case, you're both right. "Vous" is both for formal usage and for all plural groups. So you would say "tu" to a close friend, but "vous" when addressing a group of close friends who you would "tutoye" if you were speaking to them individually.
And yes, "tutoyer" is an actual French verb, meaning "to use the tu form with"!
>>> Is "thou" really the familiar in English? or "thee"? <<<
I am not an (Olde) English major, but I believe "thou" is correct as a subject such as "Thou art fine." and "thee" is used as an object such as "I give this to thee."
Tom
Just as ye should know that "you" is not the nominative form.
JV, you are absolutely correct about tutouer and the usage of tu. Also, to add to the usage of tu, you would use it if you're an adult and addressing a child or student. (I'm studying French in school)
A few years ago, I was on a 2 train that had door problems at 149-GC. At the next stop, the C/R announced that he was discharging the train. Nobody got off. He had to translate that into, um, shorter words before the crowds (grudgingly) took notice.
Another thing: on the LED signs around the subway, the phrases "thank-you" and "on-time" occasionally appear. Neither phrase should be hyphenated.
There are a few of those along the 1 line. The scary thing is, the yellow sign is newer.
Where else? This is at 72, SB local, and it's the only one I've noticed.
Try 116 NB, but I don't remember if it has the spelling mistake.
It's not a stupid sign, it's just missing a period and a comma.
It should read as follows:
DRANAGE GATE VALVE NORMALLY OPEN. TO CLOSE, TURN TO THE RIGHT. (symbol)
Seems both the sign painters were lazy.
And valve is spelled v-a-v-l-e.
Mark
Yeah. Well, it takes a poor reader to catch some mistakes like that, or someone who has overcome dyslexia. An AP story recently went that the University of (Eastern?) Illinois recently discovered, after wearing them for three or four games, that their basketball jerseys read 'Illinios'.
-Hank
And that only after a viewer called it in to the local TV station that was airing the game.
Notice, however, that the old sign puts a line break where the period should go, while the new one runs the two sentences together. That's what I find most odd, aside from the misspelling.
I would have figured that NYCT would have a native Puerto Rican doing their spanish language signage.
-Hank
(So without the 'A', it's just "NYCT", as opposed to "the NYCTA"?)
Welcome back,
I just wanted to repost the poll so everyone can have a chance to vote. As a reminder, polling will close at 1:00 PM on Thursday, January 10th, and I will repost a message daily. Click here To see the details within the original post. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
if u guys look in todays paper there is a article about how difficult a Engineer job is. They voted a Engineer a engineer of the year. The article is called NOT EVERYONE GETS TO DRIVE ONE OF THESE.
they show a pic of DE30 422. enjoy
Which paper?
Newsday. I wish I was working on the LIRR already. Tell them bums there to hire me already, I have been waiting over a year to get hired.
Put in your resume more than once, often the LIRR forgets you. If you talk to a LIRR employee, he will tell you that those from the outside had to put in resumes an average of three times.
NEWSDAY
Well if everthing gose well today with it, then tommow is the last day of testing. Is anyone going to try to ride it on the last day or for that pint the last trip of testing?
Robert
That gave me an idea. Thats something I can do to kill some time.
I hope that the trainset of R-143s makes it through the last day of testint without a hitch so that they're be more of them soon.
#3 West End Jeff
Keep your fingers crossed. It will be interesting to see how fast the TA puts these new MU's into service, IIRC they have 12 of them on the property, and someone else said they will be coming in at the rate of one car a week.
It will be interesting to see where the excess ENY fleet of R40S/R40M/and R42's will end up. Any ideas?
The cars could go anywhere. Many they'll replace the Slant R-40s on the "Q".
#3 West End Jeff
I would think that they would add to the Jamaica fleet, maybe to increase service on the "F" ("F" was cut from 50 to 45 trains on 12/16), or to increase "G" trains from 4 to 6 cars.
Good idea. Or how about increasing the frequency of R or V service?
That depends if they have enough cars to spare from the Eastern division of the BMT.
#3 West End Jeff
That ALSO is a good idea. Let's hope these 143's are placed in service as soon as they get to ENY, so the spare MU's can go to Jamaica.
I don't think Jamaica can handle any more equipment.
We had a discussion a while back about Jamaica. It's been said that the shop is not 'overloaded', but storage space may be an issue. I am sure something can be worked out to allow spare cars to be put on the Queens IND, to bring the "F" back up to it's pre-12/16 levels, or add to the "G"'s OPTO lenght trains.
There may have been talks about expanding the yard to the areas behind track 26.
Naaah, they'll squeeze 'em in somewhere. Even if they have to use the layups.
wayne
Where would the spare MUs run?
#3 West End Jeff
V Service, G Service and to increase F's from 45 to 50 trains.
F headways can't be decreased without increasing E headways, which would reduce service through 53rd. If you assigned extra trainsets to the F, where would they go?
Decreasing headways is akin to increase TPH, and that being said, the "E" headways were the same before 12/16 and now, so I do not see any ill effect by adding the 5 extra runs on the "F". What is the capacity of the Queens IND express tracks in TPH?
If the Queens Express tracks are the issue, decrease "V" service by 5 and increase "F" by 5.
That's not true. Prior to December 16, 2001, there were 12 E trains an hour in the AM rush. Now there are 15.
David
Prior to 12/16, how many "E" trains a hour were there in the AM as well as the PM?
What about after 12/16?
Thanks.
I'm not going to recite every schedule NYCT has ever had. I have reported the pertinent facts more than once -- enough is enough.
David
I neglected to read your other post. There were 12 "E's" before 12/16 and 15 after 12/16. What was the key reason for increasing headways on the "E" while truncating those on the "F"?
The reason was that service to the Lexington Avenue and Fifth Avenue stations along E. 53rd Street was being reduced from 30 trains an hour (18 F + 12 E). Although, obviously, not everybody riding the E and F trains was going to 53rd Street stations, enough were that the combined E + V would not be enough trains unless E service were increased.
David
So, in fact, service at 5/53 and Lex/53 is the same as before 12/16, because "E" service was increased to compensate for the fewer TPH that the "V" offers. Thanks for the information.
I didn't say that. The V is 10 trains an hour at best, and the E is 15. That's 25, as opposed to 30 (12 E + 18 F) pre-December 17.
David
So 53rd Street has a slight service decrease after 12/16, and 63rd Street a large increase. Since 63rd Street was a shuttle most times before 12/16, overall there is a large service increase on 63rd.
I don't want it to seen as though I'm nitpicking you but "add to the Jamaica Fleet?" Was it not you that was advocating reducing the Jamaica fleet last month? The ENY cars will likely not go to Jamaica. They'll likely go to Coney Island.
I should have been more clear, what I meant to say was add to the fleet of Queens Blvd. IND. If extra trains cannot be shopped and/or stored at Jamaica, then maybe Coney Island. I don't think you would see a huge surplus anyway at the onset.
I was not advocating reducing the fleet, I was suggesting a re-assignment of some cars to Coney since it was rumored that Jamaica shop and yard was overcrowded.
If they go to Coney, that would be just as well. Anyplace service can be improved would be good.
Is thier currently vercrowding problems on the 4 car G. If not there is no reason to increase the cost of operating g service
Yes there is currently overcrowding on the G line. I did the Rapid Load Check this past Monday morning at Clinton/Washington St.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
Is crime still a huge problem on the G. Back in the days when i went to brooklyn tech my queens friends would take the the d/q into manhattan to grab the F just to avoid the G.
I guess it depends on how your queen friends dress.
Don't tell, don't ask! There is still a way to go as far as tolerance of alternate life styles go.
avid
Dress like normal city folks. The crime problems range from stabings to jewlery riped of a girls ear. One girl had her ear lobe broken off. Back then the style was those huge ear jewlery
Ouch! just the thought hurts.
Warnings go out when the weather warms to cover or remove expensive jewlery. Chains and such. Its a war out there, but things have improved.
Still one must remain vigilant, to safeguard ones belongings.
avid G.N.
Welllll....I wouldn't go standing on the Flushing Avenue platform at 3:30AM whilst whistling a tune, but as far as crime is concerned, based on what I've heard and read, it's no worse there than anywhere else in the other residential parts of New York City. I.E. overall crime is down, but, unfortunately it still occurs. It's not as concentrated in one place as it once was.
wayne
F service can't be increased without decreasing E service. The two together max out their shared trackage.
You can change the pattern of F service, though, by sending some F trains through the express tracks east of 71/Continental. Of course, this had been considered not very popular whe tried.
I would be interested to find out how popular or unpopular the rush-hour 179-Express E's are. Are people at 169th Street and Van Wyck Blvd cursing at the passing expresses and calling their City Council members to complain, or are they OK with them?
I believe the E specials are running local, despite signage.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
Hey, those R42's can move as fast as the slants, as I recalled when they ran there in the summer of 1999. They don't have the neat railfan window, though.
They have a superior railfan window from the utilitarian standpoint. The R-40 window is tall and narrow, which makes it difficult for two to share the window (unless one is much taller than the other). The other railfan windows are wide enough for two to stand side-by-side unless the first to arrive hogs the entire thing for himself, which I consider extremely poor railfan etiquette. (No offense intended to our resident Pig.)
The other railfan windows are wide enough for two to stand side-by-side unless the first to arrive hogs the entire thing for himself, which I consider extremely poor railfan etiquette.
Most definitely. Reminds me of a Transit Museum field trip a few years back, probably the first one that I took Jr. on. Returning from the trip, we were changing trains at 180th Street after coming off the Dyre Avenue shuttle. One of the other participants on the trip - an older man in his 60s or beyond - shoved my son out of the way and sprawled himself across the railfan window so that no one else could see out. Needless to say, we got off before the doors closed and waited for the next train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sure the 4 slant 40 trains will go first, to Coney Island, with the others. The the modifieds will start going. The 6 R-32 trains will most likely be bumped off the N and sent either to Jamaica and/or Pitkin, becoming a 100% IND class for the first time. After that, who know. Eventually, even some 42's will stsrt moving elsewhere. Perhaps the C will get some and switch to 10 cars.
At the next pick, they really should consider fixing the Bergen interlocking, extending the V and G to Church, and having the F go express. They should also look into switching the C and E now, since we don't have the WTC terminal open to customers, and it would be easier on the switchmen at Canal to clean out the C's, then the more frequent E's. The E's heavier ridership would then get back their one seat ride to the Chambers area. If the C remains 8 cars, then perhaps they could send it to the Eastern Div., bringing some of the execss 143's to the main lines.
Well, I've already seen SOME of the lower-numbered Eastern Division Slants (e.g. 4402-4403) already on the Slant "Q"; so I guess these will be displaced first. What they might do is to displace the R40Ms (they have 98 cars plus an odd couple) in Eastern Division, along with the Slants, which would leave Eastern Division purely R42 and R143. These will probably be heading for Coney. OR maybe they'll do the "G" riders a service and set them out there, with the R46 going back into the "E"/"F"/"R"/"V" pot, then they can intensify service on the Queens Boulevard line.
wayne
I have no idea what will happen as to the redispersal of cars once sufficient R143's are part of the ENY fleet allowing reassigment of cars. From the standpoint of my logic, certain things will happen but in which order is something for the TA to decide. Slants, I would suspect would leave the Eastern Division first, then the R42 CI GOH and R40M's (not necessarily in that order). All these should go to CI. I suspect this since these cars (except for a few CI GOH cars) went to CI when the WillyB was closed, and I also expect ENY to keep the MK R42's since they put in the door enablers. CI in turn would be able to put R68 cars on the G which would enable the R46 cars be reassigned (still part of Jamaica barn tho) to improve and/or lengthen V service. CI would be able to transfer the rest of their R32's to Jamaica barn as well. If the TA decides to run 10 cars on the C, then Jamaica can send Pitkin some Phase 1's since they will get Phase 2 replacements from CI. And it will go on from there.
I think ENY has about 40 slants, 98 R40M sets and 110 R42 CI/GOH sets. That makes 248 cars. I suspect a little less than 200 will leave for CIYD when all 212 R143's are in, allowing for a bit more breathing room with spare cars. So you will be left with the 212 R143's, the 282 R42 MK's and the balance being either some of the R40M or some of the R42 CI/GOH. Again pure speculation on my part. And speculation opens up multiple cans of worms on this board because others will say what they want done, rather than saying what should be done in an orderly and logical way.
I defer to expertise but what would ENY do with R142s???? Aren't they Division B? My R142s can only run on IRT trackage. CI Peter
I re-read my post and I didn't notice saying anything about R142's. If I did, it can be considered a typo. Substitute R143 for R142 if I am mistaken.
You're right.....my error
"and someone else said they will be coming in at the rate of one car a week."
I believe I said, "There are 4 more R-143s at East NY Shop now. From a reliable source, 4 will be delivered weekly starting quite soon"
Someone other than yourself had mentioned one car a week, but I'll take the 4 cars a week that you stated.
These cars come in bunches, so I would have to say he meant "trainset" or "carset", meaning four individual cars.
wayne
Since no cars are independent anymore and married pairs aren't constructed either, a 'trainset' refers to the A cars on the ends and the B cars in between permantly linked. My R142s run two trainsets...two five car units hitched together. CI Peter
It is not one car per week, it's car per day for four day Mon-Thur and Friday on Friday they get ship from 207 yard to ENY.
Robert
Look for the slants to go first to Coney Island. My other guess is that the modified R40's will also go to CI. This will allow some R32's to be returned to Pitkin.
Wayne's new base will be Coney rather than Canarsie then =).
It makes sense for the shovelnoses to go to CI, then the 32's can go back to Pitkin or Jamaica. The N will go from 4 car types (32/40/68/68A) to two or three then.
The really beaten down slants will -- I hate to say it -- end up at the scrapper. The later units that came with factory A/C (pre-GOH) will likely hang around a few more years. Unofortunately, some of those cars are getting long in the tooth like the Redbird fleet.
BMTman
In the film "Nighthawks," there's a scene where Sylvester Stallone and Billy Dee Williams, playing cops, are chasing a bad guy through the subway. Part of the scene takes place in a tunnel undergoing construction.
Does anyone know whether this tunnel scene was shot in the 63rd Street tunnel? The film was released in 1981 so the Tunnel would still have been under construction at that time.
Yes it was! They ran into the 57st Station from there, and that is where a veteran fleet of R units came in for the downtown run. Sounds weird that the train came from the north because the trains turned around in the station and not north of it, sounds like an edited graphic. Was that R-9's running on the B for that movie?
The scene originated in the 63rd St line tunnel near the cut for the 2nd Ave subway. They ran north along the B'Way line segment to what was supposed to be 57th St. Normally, at that time the Astoria or Queens Blvd. line would have used thst track. It looks like the station scene was actually filmed at Hoyt St. (notice the wooden signs on the columns stating 57th St.)
Yes, they used Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. for "57th St" and "42nd St".
The train was corectly marked as a B; however, one side destination sign was set to Kings Highway. The side signs were even backlit!
Thanks to the DVD, I was able to ID three of the cars: 800, 1208, and 1802.
If you view the scene frame by frame where Stallone tries to pry the doors apart, watching from inside the car, you can see an undisguised "Hoyt Schermerhorn" platform sign.
Check at this site below for updates on the culver shuttle route and subway cars.
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/_whatsnew.msnw
How are passenger counts made in systems like LA or MUNI that use a "Proff" of Payment system? Could it be just an estimate or do they count how much revenue was brought in and use some ratio to count passengers?
It's usually an estimate, based on direct ticket sales, plus the adverage ridership using passes of various kinds.
In Los Angeles, an MTA employee with a hand-held device sits near the bus driver and counts passengers as they enter. This, of course, is done on a sometimes basis. I've never observed any sort of formal effort to count subway and light rail passengers, so other than relying on ticket sale numbers from in-station machines, I assume that an educated guess is made. The great majority of regular MTA riders use passes.
Going back about 10 or 12 years, there was a guy who was employed by NJT to walk through their trains with a clicker and count the passengers. Although this guy walked with a limp, he could absolutely fly down the aisles -- madly clicking away with his clicker.
At the time I used the Metropark station. I remember him coming through a rush hour train from front to back between NY and Newark, then coming through back to front between Newark and Metropark. Don't know what he did beyond there.
CG
Thanks for the responses.
Is it possible that these systems might fudge the numbers to make it seem like they carry more than they really do? Maybe to get more state or federal funding?
It is very easy to fudge numbers like "annual passenger count" when they are based on limited samples. This is because of the number of assumptions that need to be made to bring a few sample points up to an annualized figure. Given the amount of $$ riding on these figures, there's a pretty high likelihood that these numbers are fudged either up or down for any variety of reasons. Higher numbers might be desirable when the system is looking for additional funding. Lower numbers when they are purchasing their insurance for the year.
One might expect that an independent auditor could be used to comment on the validity of the numbers, but I'm guessing this isn't done in practice very often.
Back when the LIRR closed about 10 stations, they were accused of fudging some of the numbers downward on the stations they wanted to close. One particular allegation was that they did their count of daily passengers at the Southampton College station during semester breaks.
CG
The unlimited MetroCards are surely leading to slightly inflated numbers. Once or twice, I've exited and entered fare control (or vice versa) for the sole purpose of increasing the passenger count.
>>> Once or twice, I've exited and entered fare control (or vice versa) for the sole purpose of increasing the passenger count. <<<
Now that is Weird! Almost as bad as posting useless messages to this board to obtain a certain post number.
Tom
Not weird. He's trying to make his favorite station seem a little busier, so it gets higher priority for better service, continued token booth presence and earlier rehab...
:0)
I've read his posts on the matter, and I don't think he cares about continued token booth presence.
Me? Continued token booth presence? I'm the one who's been pushing for the removal of the token booth at the rush-hour-only entrance to my station. That way HEETs would be installed and the entrance could stay open at all times. The station has heavy off-peak usage yet the only off-peak entrance (and exit) is near the far south end.
But really, I'm trying more to make the entire system seem a little busier, pushing it just a tiny bit towards getting the funding it deserves.
>>> I'm trying more to make the entire system seem a little busier, pushing it just a tiny bit towards getting the funding it deserves. <<<
Don't forget the law of unintended results. Using an unlimited MetroCard to make the system seem busier may result in a bump upward in the price of the unlimited card when the bean counters see how often they are used.
Tom
Serious questions about counting arise even when there is a good counting device. NY bus riders, even those with school passes, slow the boarding process by dipping their Metrocards into the fare boxes instead of flashing a pass as in Jersey City. Yet, when the NYC Transit Riders Council asks the TA for numbers of transfers vs. number of first-payments on individual bus routes, the TA refuses to yield the data. As far as the LIRR is concerned, station figures are given for a two-hour peak boarding period (once a year?), with the result that reverse and off-peak commuters don't get analyzed. Because the tickets nicely can be used in either direction, only an audit of each train's ticket collection will give a hint of which zones people go to, but it won't tell which station within the zone. When I buy a ten-trip off-peak ticket between zones 1 and 7, my punched ticket is the only record of its use, uncles someone collects the punched paper from the floor! Concerning the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, which does not accept transfers (or does it this month still accept Quickpass?), the cash flow registered by the machines is probably quite accurate and ought be disclosed. Are they still collecting only 10% of operating expenses?
As far as the LIRR is concerned, station figures are given for a two-hour peak boarding period (once a year?), with the result that reverse and off-peak commuters don't get analyzed.
Counting techniques earned the LIRR some criticism about four years ago. In preparation for delivery of the bilevel diesel coaches, which require high-level platforms for boarding, the LIRR conducted passenger counts at some of the lesser-used stations on diesel lines, to identify the ones whose ridership levels didn't justify the cost of building platforms and therefore would be closed. One of the stations that was shown to have very low ridership was the Southampton College station on the Montauk line, not to be confused with the regular Southampton station. But then it was pointed out that the LIRR conducted its survey when the nearby LIU campus was out of session, and the low passenger counts were predictable. Ridership was much higher when college was in session. Unfortunately, the complaints didn't persuade LIRR management, and the station got the axe.
They're still not running.
For the history, click here.
For the current disposition, click here.
I heard today from an Inspector (Boston version of a TSS) on the Green Line that they may appear in testing once again in May, as Breda is preparing a modification to the center truck (which has been the culprit in most of the derailments).
We're coming up to the fourth anniversary of the prototype's arrival on MBTA property (Jan. 31, 1998). And you think the 30-day tests in NYC take too long!
If any of my Boston colleagues have new or different information, that would be great to hear.
"If any of my Boston colleagues have new or different information, that would be great to hear."
Todd,
I heard something on this board about a test track being built out at the Riverside Station for the type 8s....thats all I've heard. I just hope they can fix this problem and get these cars into service, those Boeings need to die at some point. -Nick
I just hope they can fix this problem and get these [Breda] cars into service, those Boeings need to die at some point.
Does this mean Boston uses the same cars as SF Muni Metro?
I'll be sad to see the old Boeings go in SF. Though they weren't handicapped accessible, and weren't A/Ced, and the orange plastic interiors didn't wear well ... they were MUCH lighter than the Bredas, which were so heavy they basically destroyed my neighborhood's uphill curves which had to be entirely rebuilt to handle 'em.
Got a pic of a Boeing in T livery? I've only ever seen 'em in SF Muni white & orange. What other cities used these cars?
Yes,
Boston does use the same cars as the SF Muni Metro..though the Muni metro has been phasing them out for quite sometime now. You can find pictures of the Boston Boeings on this website, go to Boston in the "other cities" section. -Nick
Todd I was speaking to an MBTA Instructor who relates that sometime in spring after the snow is off the ground. They will be running non revenue trips after hours to make sure they have the problems worked out. Steve
MUNI has "officially" phased them out...the "last day" was supposed to be this past Friday, but supposedly there were none in operating shape by then, making 12/31 the last day they ran.
MUNI has "officially" phased them out...the "last day" was supposed to be this past Friday, but supposedly there were none in operating shape by then, making 12/31 the last day they ran.
I'd heard that they had ONE pristine, unused (or restored?) Boeing retained for historic purposes. Know anything about that?
There IS one that has been saved. As for it being unused or in pristine condition, there's no such thing at SanFrancisco Muni. Muni could screw up a brand new rock.
Is Muni that bad?
-Robert King
Is Muni that bad?
The employees don't have the best reputation for efficiency OR politeness. SF has even nuttier far-left union advocates than ... ummm ... other cities. I think if employees were EITHER polite OR efficient, people wouldn't mind so much. But they're mostly neither.
And the bus drivers kill/injure a LOT of civilians. I think they had a month many years ago where one pedestrian was killed each week for a month, and this in a city of only 750,000.
There's even a local comic strip called "Puni," all about how bad Muni is.
OTOH, they have a LOT of transit, and of varied kinds, for a city of that size. And their Market Street historic line is second to none, and a HUGE tourist draw. Best of all, residents use the 50+ year-old PCC cars for regular everyday transit.
So, mixed bag.
let me count the ways...
MUNI has a well earned rep for deferred maintenance as SOP,
The tales over the years of no spare parts (bufget cuts), de facto service cuts by refusing to fill open job slots, missed runs for lack of operable equipment, or no show operators.
For more gory detail visit
>>http://www.rescuemuni.org/<< tales from New Years' Eve are instructive.
Management asked for extra operators to beef up service but so many drivers wrote off
"sick" that they had no extras.
To complicate matters the worse than useless inspectors gave conflicting orders further screwing up service on the LRV's.
"Management asked for extra operators to beef up service but so many drivers wrote off "sick" that they had no extras."
Last New Year's Eve, a bunch of BART operators pulled the same stunt. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CommuterRail/message/1504
And the net result is that the 'extras' got in effect double time and a half while the slackers took a paid evening off. Just the middle finger so appreciated by the citizenry.
Here Here...
MUNI is the worst mass transit system in the country, but not for a total lack of trying. In truth, the city is set up in such a way that a truly world class system could exist. The bus, trolley, and light-rail lines are laid out relatively well, and, there is a history of public committment to mass transit (at least in theory).
The problem is that the scheduled service would be inadequate even if the actual service was anywhere close to what is scheduled (which it isn't). Service essentially dries up after 7pm, and only certain routes have anything approaching frequent service during the day. The buses that do run are either empty or jammed at nearly all hours of the day (I have seen them go from articulated to mini-sized buses on the 15 line at 7pm. Talk about crammed!)
Equipment and employee failure is so common that every employee in the city can say "I am late because of MUNI" and getting a knowing look, instead of a scowl, from their employer. Huge, random unexplained service gaps are so common that anyone there dependent on a bus or train that isn't a major trunk line (like the 38 or 15 or 30 bus) simply cannot plan their day around public transit.
The only thing worse than MUNI is trying to own and drive a car in SF. Why MUNI sucks so bad when BART, AC Transit, and SamTrans are pretty good is beyond me. They should fumigate the entire city of SF and start over...
Do you know what the number of the Boeing to be saved is? At one point I think they were planning to save 1213, which was one of the demonstrators, but that unit was sent to the Oregon Electric Railway Historical Society. Interestingly enough, as many problems as Muni seemed to have keeping these things going, OERHS has been able to get 1213 operational!
Frank Hicks
LRVs, or at least their preservation, seem to be a touchy subject with museums for a couple of reasons. Most museums don't need to worry - either the systems they collected streetcars from abandoned prior to LRVs, or LRV retirement is a long way off so they don't need to worry quite yet. The Boeing LRVs are the only ones (to my knowledge) that are being retired soon which makes them the only candidates for preservation.
Anyways, a museum shouldn't have too much trouble keeping one Boeing LRV running. Muni and the MBTA have to keep fleets of them running under in service conditions which are much harder than those encountered in museum operations. Museums also don't need to worry about reliability too much either - if a streetcar in a museum conks out, it isn't a huge deal and it can be put aside until it's convenient to fix it (money, parts, labour, shop capacity are all available). Keeping a fleet of Boeings running reliably under service conditions can be labeled as 'difficult' compared to other LRVs but it shouldn't be as difficult for a museum to keep one working enough of the time.
Another thing - Boeings and all other LRVs have solid state electronics instead of the mechanical equipment found on older cars. Quite a few people I've spoken to seem to think that the electronics pose a significant problem to keeping LRVs operational when the time comes for them to be placed in museums. I disagree for several reasons but I'm to tired at the moment to write them up.
-Robert King
There will be no problem maintaining an LRV for the next 100 years,
provided when a museum acquires one, it also acquires at least
one complete car's worth of critical spare parts, particularly the
solid-state ones. It should also retain every last technical
document pertaining to the car so that if a component does fail
and there are no replacements left, a "black box" substitute can
be fabricated using what would then be modern components.
Even classic electrical equipment can be hard to maintain with
100% authenticity. Last year I had a failure on Hi-V car 3662.
It was an open line switch dropping resistor. The unit that was
on the car had a Westinghouse part #, which was a big tip-off that
it had been changed by one of the operating companies and it was
not the original 1907 piece (this is a GE car). Modern power
resistors do not have exactly the same dimensions and values.
I used a modern substitute, mounting it in the same location as
the original, and I saved the original for archival purposes.
The alternative would have been to spend hundreds of dollars having
a more "authentic" replacement custom-fabricated. The same decision
will face museums that preserve an LRV when a solid-state part
fails, except the cost of custom fabrication of an identical
replacement of, say, the chopper power transistor (what did those
use, anyway? Too early for IGBT. GTOs? FETs?) would be measured
in the tens of thousands, at least.
FYI All you LRV fans Seshore has a car waiting to go to Maine from the MBTA with it's original plug type doors
Right, Stevie! At Seashore we are also fortunate to have among our volunteers a number of retired MBTA Green Line inspectors/instructors who have a lot of experience with the Boeing LRVs.
At Seashore we are also fortunate to have among our volunteers a number of retired MBTA Green Line inspectors/instructors who have a lot of experience with the Boeing LRVs.
Todd: I may have missed it, but does this mean that Seashore actually has one or more pairs of Boeings? (And what's Seashore's website, if there is one?)
Seashore's board has approved the acquisition, and the MBTA has set aside one of the unmodified cars (3444 if I recall correctly). But it hasn't been moved yet.
Seashore's Web site is www.trolleymuseum.org.
1. Those points are pretty much equivilent to my position from the outset; I'm just so sick of hearing moaning about electronics....
2. Yes, they used Gate Turn Off (GTO) Thyristors. The earliest use of Insulated Gate Bipolar Transitors (IGBTs) that I know of would be the Scarbourough RT cars of the very early 1980s (design began in the late 70s) which have a couple in each car to power the linear induction motors.
-Robert King
I know 1213 DID go to a museum up in Oregon...but there IS a unit "preserved" right in San Francisco. It can be seen on the tracks by the Mint when you ride the J/N lines into the Duboce Tunnel (at least it was there when I was up in SF a few months ago).
There IS a very well run Yahoo Group put together by a streetcar operator at Muni. The group is called "sfmunihistory". The folks thatc ontribute to the group all seem to be decent, none of the flame wars, banter, etc. (of course, the group IS moderated...) The group moderator DID put up data files indicating the disposition of each and every Muni PCC and Boeing.
No other cities used Boeings. After Boston and San Francisco got them and the problems started showing up, nobody wanted to buy them.
-Robert King
True, but you could consider Buffalo's L-O-N-G LRV's as non-articulated Boeings (U.S. Standard Light Rail Vehicle). Philadelphia's Kawasaki's could be considered as single unit USSLRV's, since they seem to be CLRV bodies with USSLRV ends and blinker doors.
I'd hardly consider any of those LRVs to be Boeings. Even if those LRVs you mentioned had their own problems, I don't think that they were as serious as those encountered on the original Boeing since it was such an example to learn from. Also, none of those LRVs were built by Boeing and all of them came about several years after.
-Robert King
I'd hardly consider any of those LRVs to be Boeings. Even if those LRVs you mentioned had their own problems, I don't think that they were as serious as those encountered on the original Boeing since it was such an example to learn from. Also, none of those LRVs were built by Boeing and all of them came about several years after.
But clearly they look similar, esp. the end caps. What is the design history? Did Boeing sell the designs & tooling to another company?
But consider this analogy:
Most computer keyboardls look similar, particularly in the key layout. It hardly means that I can take my Amiga 2000's keyboard and plug it into this PC or consider it to be basically an IBM AT keyboard just because it looks kind of like one.
-Robert King
Q. Boeing-Vertol did assemble an order for the CTA. Since those cars were designed by the CTA, are they are as troublesome is the Boeing-Vertol LRV?
As far as I know, the CTA's Boeing-Vertol cars (the 2400-series usually found on the Green and Purple lines) have held up rather well. I think they had their mid-life overhaul a few years ago. Of the CTA's current fleet, it has been the Budd 2600's that have been the most trouble-prone, and those are now undergoing their own major overhaul.
Maybe some other CTA experts can provide more info, or correct me if I'm wrong.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I wonder what's up with Breda. Atlanta's new Breda subway cars arrived just over a year ago and they have been in regular service for a few months now, so not all their products suck.
I personally think the Breda trains are the ugliest trolleys i have ever seen. I hope the MBTA never uses them.
Let's face it. Breda may build fairly attractive subway cars for US properties, their LRV's win first prize in an ugly contest. Muni's are Ugly (that's ugly with a capital U), and the Type-8's make the Type-7's look like a classic.
Advice to all operators of Light Rail: write your car contract specs to exclude Breda as a bidder.
Agreed, not one of their trolleys is, in my humble opinion, atttractive in any way. And it all started 20 years ago with the "Bulldogs" for Cleveland's RTA.
Boston did something similar when going out to bid for the new Blue Line cars -- they issued a Request for Proposals (where qualitative factors count as well as price) vs. an Invitiation for Bids (where the lowest price wins). Therefore, Breda's history with the MBTA counted against them. While I'm not sure the order of the price proposals, the team led by Siemens won.
"I hope the MBTA never uses them."
I think they will use them, its just a question of when. it seems like they found the culprit of the derailments, so once that is fixed you may actually see them replace the 50-55 Boeings, as well as adding 45 more cars since 100 complete the total order. -Nick
See where the BMT wanted to serve Staten Island, see it here: http://www.rapidtransit.net/net/thirdrail/0201/sirt9.html
Can you imagine the mess the 4th Ave line would be today with half a bridge to service all the current West End/4th Ave/Sea Beach/Brighton riders plus those coming from SI? And remember, the Culver line used 4th Ave at the time this was proposed. Talk about a logjam at Dekalb Ave!
This is the same post I posted on BusTalk under "More Observations."
All in all, a wierd morning for Ride-On. We had a freak frozen rain shower this morning which made things quite a mess. When I went out at about 6:45 to get the paper, it was raining but it wasn't frozen. About 15 minutes later, I headed for the subway and only encountered black ice a block from my house and then at several other locations along the way. Headed down into the Metro and got my normal T/O. When I got to Grosvenor, I got off the train, had traction on the granite edge, but as soon as I stepped onto the red normal tiles, I realized that it had all frozen over and one could barely walk! I managed to get to the overhang and the tiles there were, luckily, dry. The slippery conditions were found again as soon as I had exited the station and was walking towards the buses. At this time, the J5 had arrived on the other side of the station and the ladies who transfer from the J5 to the 37, some of which were wearing high heels, were trying to get to the shelter.
Most buses were late. The 6 seemed to be doing OK. The Rock Spring bound bus was a 5200 series (I got a photo to be developed). The Wheaton bound bus was 5151, one of the highest of that type I've seen. The 37 was Orion I 5525, arriving late due to the icy conditions. More people were going outbound than coming inbound, although this 30 foot thing really doesn't work for this run. The 7:15 46 from Montgomery College was a 35 foot Gillig although I didn't catch the number. I didn't see the 47 I mentioned yesterday. The other 37 was a CNG again although I didn't wait around to see what number it was.
More to come as time progresses!
We have had some interesting discussion lately about the Multis and the R-16s. They along with the Bx's spent most if not all of their lives on the Eastern Division of the BMT. Even today the Myrtle Avenue and Broadway-Brooklyn Lines give the closest approximation of what it was like to ride the old elevated lines. Indeed the present day line between Gates Avenue and Cypress Hills is none other than a somewhat rebuilt Lexington Avenue El. (BMT Rt#12 or "The Old Main Line."
The Multis spent almost all their time here as they were the only cars that could cover the #13 14 Street-Fulton Street Express service. They also covered runs on the #16 14 Street-Canrsie Line and spent their final days on the #10 Myrtle-Chambers Line.
The BX's could always be found here because the BMT was nervous about taking the trailers over the Manhattan Bridge.
Now our old friends the R-16's by and large spent most of their carrers here covering the #14 and #15 services with side trips to the #10 and the #16. Yes a few of them made occassional vists to the IND and in the chaotic days of the early 70's they did wander a bit
before settling down on the EE and GG. Nevertheless they did return to the Eastern Division for their final days running on the LL (#16).
Another car that was almost exclusively Eastern Division was the C-Types. During their rebuilding the had extensions added at floor level so that they could no longer run over lines having clearances for only nine foot wide cars.(i'e. Fifth Avenue,Lexington Avenue, Myrtle Avenue below Broadway) They could always be found on the Fulton Street El though I think a few turned up on the Southern Division every now and then usually covering some shuttle service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry. I remember some BXs on the Brighton Local and West End Line, even when the Brighton Local ran over the Bridge when the Exp was not running in the mid 50s
BX's 2440 - 2459 (trailers 4020 - 4029) were supposedly assigned to the Southern Division in the early 1950's. I did see several of these in service on the Eastern Division though.
The other 120 BX cars (80 power & 40 trailer) were assigned to the Eastern Division.
Running a BX over the Manhattan Bridge was not a thing that the NYCTS liked doing, but 40 BX sets were about all that the Eastern Division could handle, and that left the 10 remaining for the Southern.
They would run a BX across the Williamsburgh Bridge, but only in a six car train with a B set or three A's.
Karl: Although I may have riden them on vists to my parents friends, I can't ever recall riding the BX's. Were they very different from the Standards with motors?
Larry,RedbirdR33
No, not really. I guess that the big difference was that the middle car of the three car set was a trailer. The 4000 cars had no trace of a motorman cab. They also had the larger side signs, whereas their 2400 series helpers had the smaller.
I think it is interesting to note that all of the 4000 trailers had operating door controls, even though they didn't have motors, and the door controls were used when the 4000 trailer was the fifth car in a six car train.
And of course, they were quieter. You only heard the muffled motor sounds of the adjacent 2400s.
IIRC, the IRT trailers weren't quite as quiet ... they didn't have their own motor noise, of course, but the construction and smaller volume of the IRT cars suppled lots of other noises.
You're right! I never realized when I was in an IRT trailer.
I was a dedicated BMT fan though, and to me the IRT was just transportation.
I remember my first sight of a Lo-V. It was coming in on the citybound local track at Franklin Avenue.
It was so ugly and noisy I practically jumped a foot! I swear it looked like kind of weird noisy demon with its smoky visage, colored stalk-eyes and growl. I guess it was the gearing, but IRT equipment even growled when it was slowing down--BMT Standards weren't like that.
I shouldn't dump on the IRT. In my old age I have even acquired a LO/V signbox.
I can remember the pushers helping us to get on the IRT at Brooklyn Bridge. BMT crowding was bad, but I never saw it as bad as the IRT at Brooklyn Bridge.
The thing I remember most about the BMT standards was the "tchhhhhhhhhhhh" sound they gave off as they came to a full stop. Since they also had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, they made the same moaning and groaning sounds as the R-1/9s when accelerating.
The 4000 series trailers did have the larger side signs, but the placement was different from that on the 2000 series motors. On the motors with the larger side signs, the signs were in the windows adjacent to the middle set of doors. On the 4000s, they were in the next window over, adjacent to the quarter-point doors.
-- Ed Sachs
You're remembering more than I can, and I thought I really knew the Standards.
Bob: Thats very interesting. Maybe the TA was a little more daring than the BMT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I specifically remember riding a Brighton Special in the trailer of a BX going up the H track grade. I remember it because I knew about the BX restriction and wanted to see whether we'd really go rolling backwards into DeKalb.
I won't say we zipped up the bridge, but neither did I get the impression we were going to fail at any minute.
The train was 6 cars, a BX and a B.
Thanks Paul, its nice to hear from someone who actually rode these rare birds.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul,
So nice to hear from BMT AB fans like myself. Just taking in all this nostalgia. They and the D-types are my all time favorites. I just don't get some of those D-type fans who call the ABs the sub-standards. Hey guys, remember, they were both the mainstays of the BMT. As Reagan used to say "thou shall not speak ill of fellow Republicans" Same should be said about BMT equipment.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Darn! No one had to say "Everybody out and push!":-)
>>Larry. I remember some BXs on the Brighton Local and West End Line, even when the Brighton Local ran over the Bridge when the Exp was not running in the mid 50s<<
I remember the 4000 series trailers on the Brighton Line too. I used to see them peering through the fence on the overpass while they entered the Newkirk Ave station southbound. I didn't take notice of their numbers or that they were trailers, but I remember them as the Standards that didn't have shoe beams. This may have been before the R-27s started appearing.
Bill "Newkirk"
I used to see them peering through the fence on the overpass while they entered the Newkirk Ave station southbound.
I used to hanh out with my bicycle on the property of the ruined Matts (ExLax) Mansion on the southwest corner of Albemarle Road and the Brighton cut every evening. When I saw the first Brighton Local approach northbound with Red and Green marker lights, I knew it was time to get the Daily News at Church Ave. station.
What year was this? Read and Green marker lights were used on the Brighton Express. The northbound Brighton Local was Red and Red, and southbound was White and White (at least through most of the 1950s and 60s).
-- Ed Sachs
What year was this? Read and Green marker lights were used on the Brighton Express. The northbound Brighton Local was Red and Red, and southbound was White and White (at least through most of the 1950s and 60s).
Well, not exactly. Red and green were the markers (post-1920) for the Brighton BRIDGE train. That meant all expresses plus Brighton Locals running via bridge carried red and green.
That's how I knew it was time to get the Daily News (about 8:30pm). Seeing the first local pass with red-green instead of red-red meant that the last express of the evening had passed.
At some point, they changed it so that the Brighton Bridge Locals had the same marker lights as the Tunnel Locals. By 1960, this had been was the case.
-- Ed Sachs
I'm fairly sure the red-green lasted until Chrystie Street. I lived there until 1965, was heavily involved in railfanning, and think I would have noticed if it had changed.
However, if anyone knows different, I'd be interested...
Were both Brighton locals operating at the same time then? By the mid-60s, the QB was a late night-weekend service only.
QT and QB (pre-Chrystie) were not separate services, they were the same old Brighton Local operating by Tunnel or Bridge.
Yes, but they did not operate at the same time. Not by the mid-60s, anyway. The Q and QT ran together, and the QB took over when those two weren't running.
Larry, as Brighton Bob said, I recall BXs on the Southern Division with regularity, but the rule of thumb was that you never put two BXs in one train, and the northbound H track going up the MB was the reason.
As to the R16s, maybe I'm reflecting when I did my heaviest riding (1957-1964, I would say) but I rarely saw R16s on the 14. It was almost totally Standards. An R16 on the 10 was a rare treat (because it was something different) and there always seemed to be a train or two of them on the 16. Yes, I did see R16s on the "Broadway Short Line" but it was a notable occasion.
I never got to ride a Standard on the 15, which was solidly R16s, except when a good snow storm sent the R16s scurrying for shelter.
Paul: Like yourself I never remember riding Standards on the #15. I do recall riding the #14 usually in the pm rush after school and it usually was R-16's. The cars requirements for the #14 in the am rush may have been heavier because of the Jamaica Skip-stop service.
So it was the northbound H track on the bridge which was the nemesis of the BX's. I guess that was due to the curve on the Manhattan end.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I guess that it is one of the few advantages of being older, but I can remember when the Jamaica train was nothing but Standards, BX's included, with the gate trains alternating them during rush hour.
Now riding the gate cars out to 111th St was really a treat!
You're one up on me on that one Karl. Never rode a gate car in regular service anywhere but Myrtle.
The period from the end of the War to Chrystie Street was a time when a year or two could make an enormous difference in the lines and equipment you remember.
Especially consider that the Brooklyn trolley system was pretty much intact in 1946 and gone gone gone just 10 years later.
Living 60' off Crescent St, gave me the opportunity to watch them every rush hour until Oct 13th 1950. It was as if my world had come to an end.
I really loved those old cars!
We used to have trolleys running on Crescent St too.
It was as if my world had come to an end.
I know just what you mean. The end of the Church Ave. trolley (the early morning of November 1, 1956) put a hole in my young life.
The arrival of the R27s didn't do my childhood much good either.
The arrival of the R27s didn't do my childhood much good either.
Now, let's not speak ill of the (prematurely) dead.
Yeah it's sad that they spent most of their life looking like hell, and just when they got them (R27-30)all cleaned up (as B Divisions verssion of the Redbird), they were scrapped. Someone had mentioned that the only reason the were scrapped so early was because they would have been hard to convert to air conditioning.
By the way, we had talked alot about the R16's lately and their traveling, what about the R27-R30's, did they spend time for any amount of time on lines other than the Easter Div and the C line? How much did they travel, even if for brief periods of time?
The R27/30s were strictly Southern Division cars until Chrystie Street. They debuted on the Brighton Local (QT/QB), then began nighttime and weekend service on the RR. Soon thry provided all service on the RR. After that they moved onto the West End and Sea Beach (forget the order) for nights/weekend service.
At one point or another they covered every Southern Division service. I only recall them on the Brighton Express (pre-Chrystie) on Saturdays, when the Local and Express flipped equipment, and on the Brighton-Nassau specials.
Which reminds me--they now run Fulton Street (A) Expresses for extended hours and days (Sat/Sun), when do we get a weekend Brighton Express back?
It would certainly be nice to run the Slant "Q" on the weekends, esp. during the day - perhaps the Slants themselves are part of the problem, they are getting old and are rusting away inside, there aren't many of them running at all on the weekend - even Eastern Division has surrendered 16 of them back to Southern (I saw #4402-3 on the Slant "Q" on 12/20/2001). I don't know if there would be a demand for weekend Brighton express, especially on Sundays. The Fulton, however, seems to be doing rather well.
I had seen some R27/R30 cars on the "AA" back in the mid 70s, it wasn't a full set; it was mixed with some R32s. Never saw any in Queens EXCEPT when they came in as "RR" service. The "RR" was FULL of R27/R30s by 1970 after the R16 vacated for Jamaica-Yard and R42s began moving in.
wayne
After Chrystie, the R27/R30 operated everywhere, with a possible exception of the A, CC, E, & F routes.
I saw an AA train of R-27/30s at 14th St. in 1968-69. Can't say for sure it was a solid train.
When do we get the Brighton Express back on weekends? A number of us have been wondering the same thing. Since the Q runs on 8 minute headways much of Saturday, wouldn't it be better to have the weekday non-rush schedule of 10 minute intervals with both express and local service on Saturday, at least? Or at least try it out from Memorial Day to Labor Day?
I think it should be tried. There were always Saturday expresses on the Brighton, plus Sunday during the summer.
Point is, there's no express service from the Coney Island area on weekends, and a lot more people live there than in olden days. It's about time.
Probably no full brighton express until the MB is fully open
If I remember correctly the last time that there was Saturday express serivce on the Brighton was in 1962. #1 Brighton Expresses ran between Astoria and Coney Island via Bridge but ran local in Manhattan. Brighton Local service was provided by the #7 Brighton-Franklin.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's correct, but the expresses were Q (R27/30). The locals were #7 (Triplexes). Kind of strange, but from January, 1961 until the end of Saturday express service in 1962, the Saturday expresses used equipment normally assigned to the Brighton Local (QT/QB), and the Brighton-Franklin locals (Franklin to Brighton Beach) used express equipment (hence the Triplexes, btw, with the 'via tunnel' sign lit).
Saturday service on the Brighton declined during the 1950s. Around 1957, the Saturday Brighton Local was cut back to Chambers St (from 57th), and in 1959 to just Franklin Ave. When the Saturday locals stopped running up Broadway, the Saturday Brighton Express used the local tracks on Broadway on Saturdays.
-- Ed Sachs
Did the Triplexes have a provision for neither (via bridge or via tunnel) sign to be lit? The Brighton-Franklin service stayed entirely in Brooklyn.
Did the Triplexes have a provision for neither (via bridge or via tunnel) sign to be lit? The Brighton-Franklin service stayed entirely in Brooklyn.
No, they had to light one or the other. There was a four position switch, key operated, which governed which of the destination signs and "Via Bridge" or "Via Tunnel" was illuminated. I believe it also controlled the color of the illumination of the front end signs (green for Bridge trains, white for Tunnel trains).
-- Ed Sachs
Makes you wonder why they didn't just use BMT standards on the Brighton-Franklin service, then. No big deal.
AFAIK, Triplexes were never used in regular Brighton-Franklin service, except for those Saturday Locals, and that was just as a matter of convenience.
Triplexes were signed for Franklin-Nassau service ("Coney Island Express") but I've never seen a picture of one in such service. I imagine they would have used the BRIDGE or TUNNEL markers on the Chambers Street end of the run, if they did.
Greller's book has a number of pictures of standards on the Brighton-Franklin Express, but unfortunately not of the Triplex in this service. I would love to have seen such a picture. I bet they were signed up as #7, as the Saturday locals were.
Unless it's for summer service, I doubt this will happen. Most people using the Brighton Line weekends seem to board and leave at Church Ave, so having a weekend express is not of much benefit.
During the summer, an express would be beneficial.
--Mark
Karl: Do you remember how close the old el lines came to some of those houses. I remember that the 3 Avenue El ran on an elevated private ROW south of 149 Street right up against the buildings. If the guy on the third floor was having breakfast you knew which way he liked his eggs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Riding on the platform between cars on the gate trains gave you quite a panoramic view, much greater than looking out the window from an inside seat. I saw quite a few sights that I shouldn't have seen, It certainly was an education for a young guy like me at the time.
You can still get that kind of view from some of the Chicago Ls.
-- Ed Sachs
The Red Line comes very, very close to some balconies between the State St. subway portal and the curve to Sheridan station.
My father used to love those cars in the summer. When I first found this site, he made me look for those cars he remembered using on the Myrtle elevated in the 1940's going to school.
Check out how close the M line is to some houses between Seneca & Fresh Pond. IIRC, I once saw a woman buck naked in a house along Fulton St as my Jamaica-bound J train stopped inside Cleveland St.
The M does get very close. I saw two people "very happy" on a bed, as the train went from Wyckoff to Seneca once.
Here's a pic to get you happy:
Chris, That is a great picture! I'd swear that is the turn at the west end of the Cypress Hills station, and that the train is turning onto Crescent St. If it is, the location is only about four blocks from my childhood home.
The last two cars shown seem to have a notice posted in the window. I wonder if that is the termination notice for service on the Lex. If it is, the picture must have been taken during Sept. or early Oct. 1950.
Do you have the original negative? Would you be willing to sell me a print? I tried to print it, but did not get a good result.
I'd swear that the next to the last car is a 900 series, and I wonder if it could be my favorite 902. I wish Jeff H could see the picture, he's the one who told me that the 900's were the same height as the others. I think that picture proves otherwise.
Thanks a lot for the posting, you made my day!
Karl B
This picture is not mine. I merely linked to it from this site. Check out all the other BMT gate car pics on this site.
I wonder if it was added there recently since I don't remember it from other visits.
I don't get as much internet time as I would like, so I don't peruse the rest of this site as often as I should.
Thanks Anyway, I really thought I might have found someone who had some gate car pictures that I hadn't seen..
You mentioned the intact Brooklyn Trolley Service in 46. All but 3 lines were gone in 5 years. I remember as a small child I used to ride the Nostrand Line quite a bit.alk about a waste of money. The dug up as far as I remember the entire track system South of Flatbush Ave(Bklyn College area) replaced the track and roadbed, and then suspended Trolley Service for Busses in 51
There was a plan to keep a core of 13 trolley lines--it was presumably under this plan that track was being rehabilitated only to be abandoned soon after. I don't know which lines they were, except that I know Flatbush was one and you could probably guess that some of the others would have been heavy lines such as Nostrand and Utica.
What changed? I'm not sure, but I believe BofT head Sid Bingham might have helped push things towards complete bus substitution.
So it was the northbound H track on the bridge which was the nemesis of the BX's. I guess that was due to the curve on the Manhattan end.
It was because of the excessive grade dipping under the A tracks then up the bridge on the Brooklyn side.
The grade is there. Fine. But what about the grade would make trailers a problem?
The BMT judged that the Standards did not have the horsepower to lug more than one trailer up that grade.
I also recall riding in 4000 series trailers of the BX's on the Brighton Local in the late 1950s.
When 200+ of the BMT Standards were rebuilt in the late 1950s, at least some of the single unit (A) cars emerged as two-car married pairs. I don't recall what designation these were given. Anybody know?
-- Ed Sachs
At least some of the rebuilt married pairs received the BT designation, which I remember from my days of riding the Canarsie line.
No A units were paired into twins in the rebuild. When the 4000 series trailers were pulled and scrapped, the higher numbered 2400s were made up into 2-car pairs called "BT" units--"T" for twin.
The lower numbered BX units were converted to B units by substituting former A units 2615-2649 for the missing trailers. Maybe that's what you had in mind.
Possible, but I seem to recall seeing these pairs prior to the arrival of the R27s, and I really doubt that they scrapped any of the 4000s prior to the arrival of the new cars.
-- Ed Sachs
Why did you think they were pairs? The only ways I can think of is if you saw two consecutive numbered cars next to each other or if you saw painted letters at the end of the unit indicated a twin. If the former, that's not definitive, because two consecutive A units could be side by side by coincidence. If the latter, then you would have remembered what the designation of a twin was?
The BTs (2400s) had slanted clerestory sides. Is that what you saw?
The 4000s were all, or almost all, put on the scrap lists in 1961, beginning in June.
Well, it's been over 40 years ...
I do remember is that the cabs between the two units had been removed.
-- Ed Sachs
If the cabs were removed, than you certainly saw a 2400 series ex-BX BT. The BMT didn't remove the extra cabs when they made up units, but the TA did in the rebuild.
Things happened really fast in 1961, with the R27s coming in and the Multis, 4000 trailers and SIRT cars all going to the scrapline, so its not difficult to lose track of what happened when.
ok... company is paying for it so I cant use priceline...
conference is at jacob javits but since i love the subway its not a big deal to me where i stay... :)
i want the best i can get for say 175-190 a night
any help there? :)
THANK YOU!!!
I intend to be out riding the rails this Friday and one of the places I will vist is Atlantic Avenue Station on the Canarsie Line. Is the R-143 still runnng or is the 30 day test completed.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
As of tomorrow the 30 day test is over, so it might not run on Friday. They might keep it in for a few days to look it over very close.
Robert
I was on the Shore Line today. We ran pretty fast, until we got to Metro North territory. There was some catenary work going on and four tracks were down to three. We were signal checked about 5 times (although I don't think we were actually stuck behind a commuter train).
We entered MNRR territory on-time, and ran late into Penn Sta.
I also observed that for a distance of 71 miles, the Amtrak schedules were around 85 minutes. That's an average speed of 50mph.
I felt ashamed that we were being overtaken by adjacent TRUCKS on the highway -- right, not auto, but TRUCKS.
Metro North is a fuck-up. Everywhere else on the NEC, you actually feel FAST when you're in the train -- including the PRR section even though we were limited to 135mph (125mph Metroliner). On Metro North, they were so fucked up that everything had to go at 60mph.
Lexcie
they are not the only ones with problems. LIRR makes me soo mad sometimes. I like the LIRR for one reason and one reason alone. speed!
compared to the queens blvd line i can get to manhattan from rosedale in 30 min or less. But i remember one time they wrong railed from jamaica to rosedale during rush hours! not to mention they were restricted to 40mph. it took 20 min to get 2 rosedale when its supposedo to be 7-10min!
I know. Amtrak's Inland Route trains practically fly down the Inland Route while being pulled by diesel engines, mind you. Yet when they enter the Metro-North part of the NEC and are being pulled by electrics, they CRAWL! And when they get to New Rochelle, they really crawl!
I always thought electrics were supposed to be faster than diesels.
That's catenary replacement you were looking at. You're right - things are screwed up. If they don't replace that catenary soon, 60 mph will become 30 (the wires will start to snap off).
Blame it on CDOT, they don't want to spend the money to upgrade the catenary. MN replaced the wires in NY, but must work W? ConDOT for the rest.
It's getting done, but I'm impatient.
"Blame it on CDOT, they don't want to spend the money to upgrade the catenary"
Bad enough they are revamping M-2s instead of getting new cars like the LIRR, Hudson and Harlem Lines. Last time we got new cars was in 1994 with the delivery of the M-6s, and they basically look the same as the M-2s through M-4s. No new cars for CT until 2012...maybe in time for the New York City Summer Olympics?? :-) -Nick
No new cars for CT until 2012...maybe in time for the New York City Summer Olympics?? :-) -Nick
The 2012 Summer Olympics will be held in Stamford CT!!!!!
The Metro-North New Haven division IS SCREWED UP!! If it is too hot or too cold the train cannot be operated at speeds greater than 60 mph becuase the catenary wire dates back to 1910 to my best guess. It must of made you feel humiliated that TRUCKS of all things were passing the train that you were riding in on the adjacent Connecticut Turnpike. In this way the people who manage Metro-North have rifts in their minds infinitely wider the cleft in my palate which is covered over by the skin. As a matter of fact the rifts in their mind are so wide that you can run a double decker LIRR car through through the rifts.
#3 West End Jeff
In this way the people who manage Metro-North have rifts in their minds infinitely wider the cleft in my palate which is covered over by the skin. As a matter of fact the rifts in their mind are so wide that you can run a double decker LIRR car through through the rifts.
Jeff ... Jeff! JEFF ! ! ! Hey ...
It's not MN's fault. Blame ConnDOT for the decaying relics that were once decent catenary. And I understand it's being replaced. Just not today.
Sorry for the error, I didn't realize that the Connecticut DOT is to blame for the decaying catenary wire. I'm also thankful that they're finally replacing it. Maybe in a few years, even the M series commuter cars can travel at 90 mph on the New Haven division of Metro North.
#3 West End Jeff
(1) Some semaphore signals remain between New Rochelle and New York, almost certainly all out of service.
(2) They are installing new PRR signals between Penn Sta. and Newark International Airport. The Airport station is in service, and looks pretty good.
(3) As already mentioned, Metro North is under repair.
Lexcie
From www.1010wins.com:
NJ Transit Adding More Trains to Manhattan
Jan 9, 2002 5:54 am
NEWARK, N.J. (AP) -- Starting Sunday, New Jersey Transit will begin running six extra trains between Manhattan and New Jersey in an attempt to ease overcrowding problems.
The agency announced Tuesday it also will revise the schedules for about 50 existing trains, including in some cases adding or dropping stops, in an effort to make more seats available. It also will eliminate two trains that officials said have too few riders.
The cost of adding the six trains was not immediately available.
The changes primarily will affect the Morris & Essex Line, including Midtown Direct, the Northeast Corridor and the North Jersey Coast lines. There will be minor revisions on the Boonton, Bergen and Main lines and no changes on the Atlantic City, Montclair, Pascack Valley, Port Jervis and Raritan Valley lines.
Full details are available on the agency's Web site.
NJ Transit Executive Director Jeffrey Warsh said the changes will add seats for some customers traveling between New Jersey and New York -- where ridership has increased by more than 10,000 trips during the morning peak period -- while speeding the trip for others.
When the World Trade Center PATH station was destroyed in the terrorist attacks, the number of commuters taking NJ Transit trains to New York Penn Station increased from about 33,000 a day to 48,500 a day in October.
That figure has slipped somewhat since the fall, to 43,900 riders, but many trains remain badly overcrowded.
END OF ARTICLE
My apologies, I got 1/13 confused w/ last yr since it was the day the Branch Ave WMATA Sta opened. Sorry.
If I am not mistaken, did not Amtrak surrender four AM train "slots" to NJ Transit to make the new schedule possible?
Confirmed. I read this in the either TRAINS or RAILPACE this month.
Middays this week, the 1 is split at Utica, with service between Utica and New Lots at 20-minute headways. I take it the shuttle is single-tracking. Anybody know which track?
Track 1 to Junius, then switch to track 4 from Junius to New Lots. Plus there is no 1 service to New Lots this weekend, Please use the 4.
Which is track 1 and which is track 4?
Thanks.
If I Recall Correctly, the shuttles depart Utica Avenue on Track 4, which is the Manhattan Bound Local Track on the lower level, any other way would foul trains trying to relay into and out of Utica.
Trains switch to Track 1, NL Bound Track, to Junius St before switching back to Track 4 for the remainder of the trip to NL.
-Stef
You hit it right on the head, Stef!!!!
Its a fun G O Everyone yelling about waiting 20 minutes ,But Signals must get replaced on the EL during the day.
In the early 1980's, I remember single track shuttles on the J from Queens Blvd to Crescent St. 20 minutes would've been good time during that GO!
Why must signals ony be replaced during the day? Seems like alot of inconvenience during the middle of the day for a few signals.
On the elevated structure, workers can only do their jobs safely during daylight hours. The community residents would complain if large lights were put up to allow work to be done at night. Remember, if you are on an elevated structure, one wrong step could land you in the hospital, as in falling to the street below. That plus looking out for trains and trying to stay clear of the third rail restricts when work on elevated lines can be done.
Safety should be priority and it apparently is.
Signals? They are supposed to be rebuilding the structure itself, which causes them to close down the section they are working on. Depending on where they are, the shuttle can run as follows (All trips start or finish from 4 Trk at Utica)
SB Normal, NB 4 Trk to Penn Ave cross to 1 Trk
SB Normal, NB 1 Trk to Penn Ave cross to 4 Trk
NB Normal, SB 1 Trk to Junius cross to 4 Trk
NB Normal, SB 4 Trk to Junius cross to 1 Trk
NB Normal, SB 1 Trk to Junius cross to 4 Trk
This is what the train I rode this afternoon did. At Pennsylvania we were delayed due to a sick passenger, and at New Lots we had to wait for EMS before we could leave. (I was in the next car, not watching closely, but it looked like a bunch of people started to drag him out of the car -- he had been lying on the floor -- at which point he woke up. But don't quote me on that.) Naturally, when we got back to Junius, the other shuttle train was waiting for access to our track. I'm sure Utica was a mob scene when the first shuttle finally got back (I got off at Junius for the L).
Otherwise, it wasn't a bad ride. I was hoping for some serious speed in signal-free territory, but the stations are a bit too close for that.
Utica could have had better signage; I nearly ended up back in Manhattan. Nothing is posted on the TA web site on the 4 cutback to Atlantic, although it should be obvious. I'm amazed at how frequently 1 trains were relaying at Utica; some of them must get lost on the way uptown, since they're never that frequent in Manhattan.
The shuttle train starts on Track 4, switch to track 1 until Junius, then back over to track 4. This all for the Junius tower. I perfect view of the switch and tower from my house.
Lucky you! How about a webcam pointing out your window?
That has been suggested to me on numerous occasions since I have a view of the el here in the Bronx. Heh.
It would be great to document those R-142 Deliveries on tape.
-Stef
It would be great to document those R-142 Deliveries on tape.
Well, if it's a webcam ... on disk!
That would be something. The 1,L and the movements out of Linden Yard (including the R142 deliveries).
Otherwise, it wasn't a bad ride. I was hoping for some serious speed in signal-free territory, but the stations are a bit too close for that.
In theory, wrong-rail moves are limited to 10mph, UNLESS the area is signalled. Of the four scenarios, I believe that only the NB on 1 Trk from Junius to Utica is signalled for the reverse move.
ROTFL. That rule seems to be widely ignored. It certainly was on Thursday, although perhaps that was to make up for lost time due to the sick passenger.
Why is it necessary? Only one train at a time occupies the section of track in question. I suppose grade timers might still be an issue.
Why? I don't know. (He's on third).
Most of their rules have come from someone being the bad example - so it would seem at some point in time, somebody did something bad while going faster than 10 mph.
First off, does anyone know anything about the truth regarding a rumor I had heard from a fellow conductor that the TA wants to eliminate penalty jobs in the system and make ALL jobs a straight 8 hours? (THIS WOULD BE VERY BAD IF TRUE!! :-( ) Secondly I been hearing word from fellow employees and supervision that there is supposed to be an exam filing this month for Train Operator. Does anyone know if this test will be open competitive, promotional, both open and promotional or open competitive only? Lastly, also regarding the T/0 exam, why isn't information about this exam, if it is due to file this month, placed in any of the newspapers, or in The Chief, or on the nyc.gov or DCAS websites?
Because it is BS. The current list was extended just recently. Maybe another class will be out in a month or so.
If you can do three against the wall on the A in 8 hours god bless you.
>>>>>>>>First off, does anyone know anything about the truth regarding a rumor I had heard from a fellow conductor that the TA wants to eliminate penalty jobs in the system and make ALL jobs a straight 8 hours
What I have heard over the past couple of years is that the TA wants to "pre-package" tricks with RDO's. In this instance, the TA would package the penalty jobs with weekday RDO's, and the 8 hour jobs would get the S/S.
As far as making all the jobs 8 hours, for personal reasons, that's more than fine with me. If true, it would appear that the TA is trying to force the senior guys off the payroll and into the pension system.
In regards to the possible T/O test, I would be extremely surprised if this comes to fruition. Don't count on it.
I doubt they will do that. They cut so many bodies from the payroll with 10 hour C and L jobs, they would have to hire more operating crews to make up for it. I'd like to see ALL jobs 8 hours too. 24 dollar an hour jobs should be shared with others, not greedily hogged up by a few. Thats what RDOs and turn of the wheel overtime is for.
I'd like to see salary caps like they have for other titles. WAY too much favoritism on hours. Especially the CIY boys.
>What I have heard over the past couple of years is that the TA wants >to "pre-package" tricks with RDO's.
Like they do for other titles. Like that will fly. It would give lots of people a piece of the weekend years faster but as we know violation of senority. It would work in the yards as most of those guys havea piece of the weekend off.
One of the NTSB's findings after the 1995 WB crash was that
the TA had no system in place to prevent over-worked crew
and the problems that often result from it. Does the TA now
have any kind of "hours of service" rule for operating
personnel?
The "absolute rule" in recent times has been 16 hours continuous, excluding emergency conditions. If an operating person approaches their 14th hour working, they must notify Control of this fact so that their "relief" can be arranged for. Normally this only came into being regarding work trains. Also there is a mandated rest period of 8 hours between leaving work and returning. For regular assignments 10 hours is the rule. The 8 hours would apply if someone were held late, 10 hours would apply to picked jobs, or extra list assignments. Any less time, and notification must be made, so a re-assignment can be made.
However, Overtime for T/O's is practically non-existant, except for "penalty jobs". In fact, there is a memorandum that forbids any T/O overtime in excess of 2 hours, except to avoid a terminal ABD, and then only with approval from a Supt. C/R's are not so restricted, to my knowledge.
I don't think there going to do away with Penalty jobs anytime soon. In the A Div. Penalty jobs where added like on the No.2 Line.
Now about that rumor about the T/O Exam. There is talk one may come out at the end of the year for Promotionals. That has been a Strong rumor for a while.
My understanding is that the Union called for the minimum % of non-penalty jobs in the contract not the MTA.
For each new body you have to train them pay costs like health insurance, pension, vacation. If you rearrange work programs to stel the time from WAA and breaks you are asking for trouble as people become more stressed.
I heard on the NEWS12 Cablevision program that the LIRR is soon to be finally replacing the aging M1/M3 fleet this year. They said some 200+ cars are slated for the electricified lines by the end of the year. My question is does anyone have any technical info on the new cars? and who is the manufacturer of the new equipment? any info would be greatly appreciated....
Bombardier will be the manufacturer of the M-7, which will be, like the rest of the M fleet, 85' long, 10' 6" wide. The M-7 will be built with stainless steel, and equipped with AC asyncronous traction motors. Their maximum design speed will be 100 MPH. They will be replacing the M-1 fleet (the oldest are first to go), while the M-3s (younger in age than the M-1) will undergo an overhaul and are expected to last longer on the road.
Are the LIRR MUs 10'6" loading or at the belt?
Mark
>>I heard on the NEWS12 Cablevision program that the LIRR is soon to be finally replacing the aging M1/M3 fleet this year.<<
Not that soon! The first trainset must undergo testing that will ensure the rest of the M-7 fleet can be built and delivered. The M-7s will not replace the M-3s, they're still kinda new.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newsday posted some pixs on their site a few weeks ago.
I was looking at a track map and I noticed that after Euclid on the A, the four tracks seem to keep going, as the in use tracks curve toward Grant. Was the original intent for the line to also continue straight. Where was it supposed to go after Euclid, if anyplace?
There are two lay up track and two yard leads witch are also used for C train relays.
Robert
the tunnel leads to 78th street, as part of the IND Second System the line was to continue east along 120th Avenue to Springfield Gardens & Rosedale. In the Early 1950's The line was Connected to the Fulton Street BMT East Of Euclid Avenue Station And a Station Was Constructed At Grant Avenue.
Are the bellmouths still intact so that, one day, if possible, an extension could be built from that point on?
AFAIK Onthe A line after Euclid, The 2 tracks going to the yard go down and off. The 2 tracks to Grant go up and out. The 4 tracks keep going. After that comes the bumper blocks, the yard leads, the proposed station at 76 Street (based on what is seen on the board at Euclid Tower) and the end of the tunnel. Maybe the tunnel keeps going. It says on the board that the next tower is Cross Bay.
Wow I never knew that. There seems to be so many of these "planned extentions" built into the system, especially the IND.
I would suggest that you visit Joe Korman's site, he has a whole section devoted to the "IND Second System" which never got built.
You will find it fascinating.
http://www.thejoekorner.com
The IND Second System page on this website isn't too shabby either. Much of it was pointless, but some of the lines should've been built.
Don't forget the History of the Independent also on this site, where I talk about the 1929, 1939, 1950s and 1968 plans, too.
--Mark
Well it's good to know that if and when those extensions are put into use, the El connection to Fulton will remain. That would give a nice mix of service, if and when it comes.
From what you're saying, the trackways continue passt the bumper blocks.Is that proposed station at 76th Street partly constructed, or was there just simply space allocated for the constrution of a station? It also seems strange (at least to me) for there to be a tower marked at Cross Bay when the line was never built that far to begin with.
At 76 St, I figure there is probably a shell. Just like the proposed upper level station at Utica/Fulton. If it would be 76/Pitkin or 76/Conduit I don't know. The contro; board at Euclid Tower does have in the lower right hand corner some black tape that has been peeled back and it shows a 76 St Station. With 2 yard leads that according to a 1968 TA phonebook I have do exist.
Maybe in 1948 when the station opened Maybe they had plans about extending the line. Then again maybe they might have planned or expected to connect the line with the BMT Fulton El in Queens.
A tell-tale sign for a partly constructed station would be if there were ventalilation gratings on the sidewalk in that area. As for the yards leads, they must be tracks A7 and A8 according to Peter Dougherty's track book that curve off of the Pitkin main yard leads towards the east but are nothing more than stubs. And as for the line being extended, the Fulton IND was originally supposed to go 229th Street eigher in Cambria Heights or Laurelton/Rosedale. What street the tunnel was to take to get there is not clear but probably either Linden Blvd or Rockaway Blvd. Also it was supposed to tie in the proposed 120th Avenue el of the IND second system.
that future extension SHOULD have gone to JFK Airport instead of this half assed airlink. The trackage which ends outside of Euclid Avenue could possibly have been linked with some additinal stops for the neighborhoods it runs thru to the JFK.
Once upon a time there was a stub that ran north from Van Wyck Blvd. It didn't go far after it left the station. It's hard to say these days since it was built in the 1930's But it could have gone to Anderson Airport. (Which is now known as JFK)
I thought the old name was Idelwild.
That's Idlewild, and yes, that is the former name of JFK.
I believe it was Idelwild from 1948-64, when it was renamed after the Kennedy assassination.
Construction began in April 1942, when the City of New York contracted for the placing of hydraulic fill over the marshy tidelands on the site of Idlewild Golf Course.
First commercial flights began on July 1, 1948. The airport was formally dedicated as New York International Airport on July 31, 1948. It was rededicated on December 24, 1963, as John F. Kennedy International Airport, following action of the Mayor and Council of the City of New York and a resolution of the Commissioners of the Port Authority.
I have 2 maps on NYC. A 1928 sheet map and a 1943 5 boro atlas. It seems strange to look at them and the land is there but there is no airport!
so, was it ever named anderson airport?
When it first opened up. Before NYC had thoughts about making it a large airport.
Anderson was the original name for thee airport that grew there.
That's the Van Wyck Stub. It now leads to the Archer Ave. line.
Until the Fulton IND gets an additional connection into Manhattan, extensions of any sort seem improbable, and even less probable would be a whole new line.
Would that be related to the rumored 'Ghost station' of 76th Street on the A line.
Story goes that there was a subway station built -- and later cinderblocked over (sometime in the 50's) that would be around that area. You might have heard about this from previous posts from about last year or so.
BMTman
I'm not sure about that, but didn't they have to build a station from Euclid Avenue to connect the A with the old Fulton line as it expanded to Rockaway in 1956? I do know that the A terminated at Euclid when I was a kid and that train did not connect with the Fulton line.
That would be Grant Ave.
Yes, last June, we had a whole thread going about this rumored station.
One of the first Hammond subway maps, from about 1938, showed the Fulton St. IND Subway continuing past East New York all the way to Springfield Gardens. The map showed it cutting thru a corner of Aqueduct Park. Later editions of this map show a white stripe thru the green park land where the ink for the future subway line was removed from the printing plate. A footnote said it would open in 1943. [Another footnote said that the 6th Ave. IND subway was not yet open, and that while the 6th Ave. El wasn't shown on the map, it would run untill the subway opened.
I'd love to see a pic of that map!
I would like to see it too!
Yup, the line was supposed to continue along Pitkin. Some say there's a complete station at 78th St/Pitkin, but nobody knows for sure.
One such plan called for the Fulton Street line to be extended to 229th Street in the vicinity of Rosedale or Cambria Heights
Would the line gone east on Pitkin or on Conduit?
I'm not sure. I think it would be either Linden blvd. or Rockaway Blvd. though Conduit Avenue is also a possibility. The book read this from, wasn't clear on this. It was Fischler's "the subway".
How do they R143 get to ENY from 207 St? I am assuming the fly down 8th Ave to the 6th Ave tracks and then go onto the KK tracks.
Straight down the A would make the most sense.
That would make the most sense if there were a connection from the Fulton STreet Subway to East New York Yard -- which there isn't.
David
Then the A line would have three yards.
You know,I have always said that.... there are bell mouths for such a line east of ENY station,for direct Jamaica to Down town Brooklyn service.... now all we need is for some one other than US to have that glorious vision also....
Then whatta they do, carry them up the stairs?
No, silly, the escalator!
If the TA was smart they would build a one track connection from the Fulton Street Line to the BMT Eastern Division. This will enable the cars to get to Coney Island alot faster.
8115 is on the way down Broadway in Yonkers to 207 Yard.
The Weeks Crane is back.
Bye Bye Birdies, Hello replacements.
We knew that had to happen.....
-Stef
8115 is a 143 unit, yes?
That would make this the 13th MU.
Keep it going, Keep it going, going, gone. Do it FAST!!! OUR C.I. pick is coming up on the 17th and we don't want CME/CMA jobs!!! Just had the first break in weeks out of 180th Street subs. CIs do everything, even catch rats in the car desk office. CI Peter
Which cities in Europe have elevated rapid transit lines outside of Berlin, Hamburg, and Paris?
Certain parts of London's Underground is at open cut or above ground on elevated tracks.
Is any part of Moscow's Metro above ground - does anybody know?
Not sure if they have elevated lines, but yes, some of Moscow's system IS outdoor.
Wien, Vienna Austria, has their U6 Stadtbahn, which runs along the west side of the city along the Gürtel for about half of its lengeth. It was designed by Otto Wagner and opened in 1898.
You can study a fairly comprehensive Website devoted to the Wien Subway by Horst Prillinger.
Find it here http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~prillih3/metro/ which has an English version.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
Amsterdam has at least one line that starts off at Central Station and after several stops underground - runs elevated and terminates at an elevated station.
I like the metaphor of riding high in Amsterdam...
Mark
Groovy, man! Let me tell you a little about Amsterdam!
Uhhhh .... damn it, I forgot!
Wait - what are we, like, talking about again?
;-)
It depends what you mean by an el. If an el runs along a street, above the street on a steel structure, then we don't have them in London. Reason: the streets aren't wide enough! But lots of the London Underground is above ground, and quite a bit is well above street level, giving good views. Some on embankments, some on brick viaducts. I recommend the Hammersmith and City line between Hammersmith and Ladbroke Grove -- a nice bird's-eye view of Shepherds Bush Market which runs through the viaduct arches under the line, then a close approach to the BBC TV Centre, and all of it largely unknown to tourists and used by a lot of local people who don't even carry on into central London at all.
Has any kid tried scratching their stupid names on the Windows of the R142 or R143 yet.
Yes there are few scratch not alot on R142/142A.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Opeartion Planning
At least we can replace the mylar glass films...so far. CI Peter
Yes, there are some window scratches....but they'll disappear fast cuz the TA just peels off the scratch protector and puts on a new one. -Nick
Some idiot etched something in a seat already.
I saw some scratches on the stainless steel door post on an R-142 last week. Nothing elborate, just a few scratches.
Bill "Newkirk"
Special sanding pads do the work off a stick. CI Peter
>>Special sanding pads do the work off a stick. CI <<
How about razor stubble from the great unshaved ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I haven't seen any scratchitti yet, but it occurred to me that the advertisement-less walls of the Bombardier R142s might be inviting as a gleaming, white canvas for some vandals with a black magic marker. I wonder why they haven't yet struck. (I hope I just didn't give somebody ideas.) The lack of ads (only maps are on the walls) and/or artwork on the back of the rollsign (like the Kawasakis) makes the lighting appear too harsh for my taste. It's like riding in a refrigerator. Of course, that illusion may be handy come summer!
They have struck. I was on a 2 train a few weeks ago with an awful smudge on the blank wall, clearly a failed attempt at removal of marker grafitti.
Incidentally, I would like to see that space filled with more maps. There are only two maps per car, and on the R-142(A) they're near the ends.
The latest attack uses xylene based paint markers. Sorta permanent. CI Peter
I've seen some scratchitti on the R-142s already.
#3 West End Jeff
I read a story on mlb.com that WCBS Newsradio 88 will be broadcasting all Yankees games this season instead of WABC, becuase WCBS-TV (Chan. 2) will be broadcasting some games as well, while the Yankee Entertainment and Sports Network (Y.E.S.) televises most of the games. I don't know how listeners will feel about wanting news and hearing a game, they'll have to turn to 1010 WINS or something. Also, will WCBS interrupt a game for major breaking news? -Nick
It's not that unique -- WINS broadcast the Yankees in the late 1970s, before WABC got the contract. And since Viacom/CBS/Infinity owns both WCBS and WINS, anyone wanting to listen to news while the Yanks are on will probably still be tuning into a Infinity station (though WINS' suburban signal isn't anywhere near as strong as WCBS).
As for breaking news, I'm sure if something big does happen during a game, they will interrupt the game for bulletins, though depending on how big a story it is, after a while they'll probably tell you to tune to WINS or watch Ch. 2 for further information and go back to the Yanks game.
WTOP (All news-Washington DC) broadcasted the O's up to 2000. The only thing I did not like about the game is that I needed my traffic report (why am I stuck here on I 95, where is the delay, and how much longer before it will be clear).
Hey Phil,
If the Expos come to town, WTOP is going to consider running their games w/ a format that will allow them to do both baseball and news at the same time. I don't like the O's on 980 since I need weather when I wake up but WTEM doesn't do that but I want to listen to the game when I go to bed.
There's a certian irony in Washington D.C. being the nation's capital and the largest matropolitan area on the East Coast without a decent 50,000 watt AM station, which is a big downside for sports broadcasts.
WTOP's location at 1500 on the dial meant even with its power it's spotty outside the district (which is why they have two sister stations at 107.7 FM and 820 AM in the area), WTEM also tends to fade quickly, as does its sister station, WTNT at 570 AM. And of all the major ABC radio stations across the country, WMAL has the worst signal, even though it's probably better than all the others above (WABC, WLS-Chicago, WJR-Detroit, WBAP-Dallas/Ft. Worth and KGO-San Francisco blast all over their regions, and even the not-so-hot single of KABC in Los Angeles travels a little further than WMAL's).
I get WTOP quite well in NE PA and various other places.
It's got a 50,000 watt signal, but the higher on the AM dial the poorer the uniform reception is. So you may be able to get `TOP in Pennslyvania, but the station recently had to start up a simulcast on 820 AM in Fredrick, Md., because its signal is spotty at the north end of I-270, and the 107.7 simulcast for Virginia has been going on for about a decade now.
WCBS broadcasts at the same power as WTOP, but since it's lower down on the dial and has a better antenna location (near salt water), CBS/Infinity doesn't have to worry about having to do any simulcasting on suburban stations.
At least I can pick up WCBS-AM at night down here.
Phil Hom
Northern Virginia - Wash DC.
107.7 isn't that old and the first simulcast was on 94.3. They swapped to get a better signal. Also, 820 is horrible. I was on 70 just outside Fredrick and couldn't hear anything.
WTOP has an internet simulcast (http://www.wtopnews.com) ... I have no problem getting it here in NY :)
--Mark
Denver's 850 KOA is known as the 50,000-watt blowtorch of the Rocky Mountain West. It can be picked up from far away at night.
I've picked up Chicago's WGN from Connecticut.
There are several stations around the country -- mostly owned now by Clear Channel, ABC or CBS/Infinity -- that blast all across the U.S. at night. WBBM in Chicago, KFI in Los Angeles and WOAI in San Antonio are three of the others that can be heard sometimes more than 1,000 miles from their transmitters (Southern Illinois and Western Kentucky at night are two great places for distance listening, since pretty much every 50,000 watt clear channel station from Boston to Denver can reach there).
We went through this a few years ago, but I'll repeat it again for newcomers. Clear channel AM stations (not to be confused with those owned by Clear Channel Communications, by the way) were established during WWII for the purpose of informing the public about national emergencies. If the Emergency Broadcast System (EBS) was activated, you would have been informed where to tune in your local area for official information; non-clear channel stations were to sign off the air. Clear channel stations are positioned on the dial where the combination of their frequency and tower location gives them the greatest range, to serve the greatest number of people at these times. Since the sky wave (the atmospheric phenomenon that allows AM signals to go great distances) works best at night, many stations on other frequencies are "daytime only" and must sign off or lower their power at night. That's why stations such as WWL (New Orleans) are famous for their all-night shows targeted at long-haul truckers. WBZ here in Boston advertises they can be heard in 38 states at night.
The EBS became another relic of the cold war; then the Emergency Alert System replaced the EBS in 1994.
The FCC's Web site will give you a list of all clear, regional, and local AM frequencies, and the stations broadcasting on them.
For what it's worth, Clear Channel got its name from its first big purchase, WOAI in San Antonio, which IIRC at 1200 is the highest clear channel AM station on the dial (I believe WLW-AM 600 in Cincinnati is the lowest).
Correction: WLW is at 700 (once the only 700 in the USA until 20 years age.
Correction II: Below WLW is WMAQ 670 in Chicago, WNBC 66, WMC 650 Memphis. I may be wrong on the call letters for the memphis station.
Clear channel in North America is regulated by international treaty.
That is why all frequencies can not be clear channel in the USA.
At 800 there is clear channel for CKLW Windsor,Ont., XEROK Juarez, MX and Radio Netherlands Antilles in the caribean at 500Kw!
I've got a buzz on clear channels...just give me a sked on eighty meters. CI Peter
I've got a buzz on clear channels...just give me a sked on eighty meters.
Heh. Glad to see I'm not the only ham here on SubTalk! I'd love to start a SubTalk net on 75 or 20 if there are more hams than just us on board! Whaddya Say?
73 de VE3THX /W2
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Sometimes I feel I sing my hymns alone. Sometimes I wonder who reads my posts beyond the TA and the vendors. Sometimes I wonder if something is wrong with me and I'm alone. Sometimes I wonder if what I have learned will ever be put to use. What I do know is that I GOTTA GET NEW RADIO BEYOND MY VINTAGE CIRCA 1974 YAESU AND ATLAS RADIO. Like to know if TA has HF net too!!!!! Car Inspector Peter, Extra Class WB2SGT from 239th Barn, NYC MTA CED and I'm not alone anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless.
What I do know is that I GOTTA GET NEW RADIO BEYOND MY VINTAGE CIRCA 1974 YAESU AND ATLAS RADIO. Like to know if TA has HF net too!!!!! Car Inspector Peter, Extra Class WB2SGT from 239th Barn, NYC MTA CED and I'm not alone anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless.
What?? Didn't you hear that the new radio system specs are in? They're putting old FT-101E's in the cabs and will run the whole damn railroad on 11 Meters! They're claiming better received audio quality than they have now with less QRM, and more familiar operational characteristics for the operators, HI. Not just that, but it would allow seemless intermodal operation between the TA and the fleets of gypsy cabs and jitneys--a win-win situation!
For Yard moves, they're going to buy some surplus backpack equipment from the Aberjumbian army reserve and Boy Scout troop.
You're listening to Radio Free D-train!
Not too far removed from reality, though, the Toronto subway's comms have been using "radios" at 72 kHz superimposed over the third rail since 1954. I think they're moving up to 860 MHz digital radios in the future, but to my knowledge, the old inductive-coupled rigs are still ruling the rails up North!
73 de VE3THX /W2
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
WB2SGTs machine shop has whipped up a really neat bootleg brake handle from a cut key. Also made a slim reverser from a 3/4 machine tool wrench. Now yu tell me I gotta build a coil winding lathe for 72 Kc when my last project, a hand held screwdriver is in limbo??? I'm Extra Class...FT 101 B with FL2100B. I had given up on my ten meter Uniden. Yesterday, I had the pleasure of calling up the 239 tower on a R142 radio. Didn't have the heart to call 'radio repair to tower.' My crew couldn't see the hidden tears. By the way, I'm exTMC/TMC alumnus as in CHU and WWV. Remember Hammond??? The internet has me all over the place but SubTalk connects friends everyday. Ck 73 de WB2SGT CI Peter.
Forgot one point: I worked hard to pay for and finish V7 course at RCA Institutes and the money i saved went for that FT-101b. The first thing i did when i got home was to cut the brown wire. CI Peter
Clear channel stations are positioned on the dial where the combination of their frequency and tower location gives them the greatest range, to serve the greatest number of people at these times. Since the sky wave (the atmospheric phenomenon that allows AM signals to go great distances) works best at night, many stations on other frequencies are "daytime only" and must sign off or lower their power at night.
Actually, what happens is the D-layer of the ionosphere gets charged up during the day and essentially keeps low-frequency and medium frequency signals from reaching upper more refractive regions of the atmosphere. When sunlight is gone, the D-layer dissipates and you get that wonderful sky-wave propagation on the low bands.
What really cheeses me off about the old former "clear channels" (I think they're now called Class 1-A but I'm not positive) is that sometimes they are utterly wasted on pittiful broadcasters in podunk markets while other markets do without. DC is a prime example of a market without a good low-end 50kW Clear.
On the other hand, I can give you a handful of non-directional day and night 50kW locals that have no business being where they are. The most prominent ones that come to mind are WGY Schenectady, NY on 810, and WHAM in Rochester, NY on 1180.
What's even worse is that in the last two decades, the Canadian regulators have basically told the US to go get stuffed and have put local stations to compete with some of these wonderful US 1-As. For example, 820 WBAP is blocked by a country station outside of Toronto whose call I now forget. A similar re-assignment of a 1-A to a Canadian happened in the Montreal area as well. And not just that, either...the Canadian Broadcorping Castration shut down most of their AM TX's and moved everything up to FM, and a lot of the powerhouse CBC assignments are now in use by abhorant little nothing broadcasters in Toronto, Montreal and other places (listen to 740 and 940--if you can--and see what I mean.
I grew up with the sounds of WCBS, KMOX, WLW, WRVA, WSB and others from my bedroom in Montreal, and I guess I'll always have a soft spot for these RF monsters. That's why it pains me so much to see these frequencies wasted. Hell, I remember visiting the TX sites for some of the biggies, including WLW 700. Nothing like seeing 17 KV on the plate!
Finally, to keep this thread at least local to NY (although not transit related in the slightest), Can *ANYBODY* tell me whose transmitter is located on Metropolitan Ave. in Queens--about 2 miles from me--comprising of a four tower array (three in-line, and one offset). I assume it's something high-up due to the limited height of the sticks. I'm also curious as to the location of WABC's array and whether they're onmi or directional day/night. I lose them in Queens, especially the lower-level of the 59th St. bridge and near QP. Gotta wonder where they are!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
It'll be interesting to see if satellite radio ever really takes off. Best Buy is selling systems starting at $250 or so, installation presumably extra, and subscriptions are about $20 per month. If I drove longer distances on a regular basis, I'd seriously consider satellite radio. Other than listening to the news (on WCBS880, of course), I've basically given up on broadcast radio - there are so many commercials it's completely intolerable.
I've basically given up on broadcast radio - there are so many commercials it's completely intolerable.
The commercials are bad enough, and I could tolerate them if there was real DIVERSITY in what I listened to. These clusters of mega-broadcasters make we want to projectile vomit. As a die-hard conservative, I'm loathe to see government step in and regulate things, but damn it, the FCC's relaxation of ownership limitations in a given market has destroyed radio broadcasting. Just TRY and find something that doesn't sound like the soundtrack to Friends out there, or some banal, inoffensive middle of the road shlock. When PDs and cluster owners WAKE THE HELL UP and realize that there is a HUGE and under-served market of 30 and 40-somethings out here that want diverse programming and enjoy risk taking, then maybe we'll have radio start to live and breathe again.
Jeez, when was the last time Dr. Demento was heard on a NY-area radio station? I'd give my left nut to get him on broadcast here instead of a 'Net feed!
At least talk radio offers a glimmer of thought here and there, but its appeal is losing out as well what with all the Rush wannabees springing up like weeds. What's really pissed in my cornflakes in the local talk marketplace is how WABC's bills are paid by about 2 or 3 slimeballs hawking snake oil herbal remedies to gullible aging seniors. I can't listen to these sleazy ads--or the programs they support--for more than a quarter-hour segment or two.
I guess that's why my dial in the drive times is often set squarely to 146.85, 154.43 or 161.505!
73 de VE3THX /W2
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
GREASEMAN LIVES IN OUR HEARTS even if he was so dirty. I used to scan the X band. On my old job working late and excessive hours, i heard 'WAR, WAR, this is WAR.' It was the portamobile unit being ck'd out for Gulf War.....staffed by volunteer hams. I'm still nutz....bang CQ on the sides of Redbirds. DAYYYTONNN FOREVER.
Peter and Peter, some of us remember some seriously wierd clear channels WKBW R%R from Buffalo!, WLAC, serious blues from Nashville, In my high school years (late fifties early sixties)the glory of these and others was a different musical vine combined with mostly local commercials--you weren't going to hear those any other hours of the day and never would see the advertiser. At this point, my radio only tunes to noncommercial stations where at least the music or talk choices are relatively local. Bring back the five station rule!!!
Bring back Quaker Oatmeal box radios. Volksrundfunkfanger too. CI Peter
The solution to the problem of banality in modern radio is to allow more radio stations and to make it easier to start a radio station.
More government regulation is NEVER the answer.
WABC transmitter is in Lodi, NJ surrounded by salt marsh.
Finally, to keep this thread at least local to NY (although not transit related in the slightest), Can *ANYBODY* tell me whose transmitter is located on Metropolitan Ave. in Queens--about 2 miles from me--comprising of a four tower array (three in-line, and one offset). I assume it's something high-up due to the limited height of the sticks. I'm also curious as to the location of WABC's array and whether they're onmi or directional day/night. I lose them in Queens, especially the lower-level of the 59th St. bridge and near QP. Gotta wonder where they are!
As mentioned, WJZ, the local NBC Blue affiliate is in Lodi. The transmitters on Metro Avenue are WQEW-1560 (Radio Disney).
The other towers on Metropolitan Avenue with the tomatoe/pot patch belong to the FAA. CI Peter
Next time go to www.radiostation.com
peter - i have several questions that have always baffled me and which you may know the answers to.
is the better am radio reception in the winter somehow related to the colder temperatures shrinking something to the ionosphere?
also, dallas has wfaa and pittsburgh has k???. these violate the mississippi river rule. any idea why?
also, in the sixties and maybe later, wfaa would switch frequencies with a sister station at dawn and dusk. one transmitter was at 50000 watts and the other, considerably less.
thanks
I know that KDKA predates the formal standardization of the K/W Mississippi rule.
I do have a question about the Mississippi rule: What do they do in St. Louis/East St. Louis or Minneapolis/St. Paul? And is New Orleans K or W? It's in a state that's mostly west of the Mississippi, but is on its left bank (which is north there), the W side.
Stations along the Missisippi generally take their cues from which sid e of the river they're on -- St. Louis is mostly Ks and Memphis is mostly Ws, though in New Orleans there are long time stations the WWL that defy the trend, and Minneapolis-St. Paul stations pretty much were determined by which city the FCC decided was the designated hometown back in the 1930s (that rule has been completely relaxed nowadays; in Dallas-Fort Worth KRLD was assigned to Dallas and WBAP was assigned to Fort Worth, but both stations' studios are now about five blocks apart from each other in Arlington).
BTW -- There's actually an AM station with a `W' call letter west of the Mississippi that's in the new 1610-1700 Kc band. WROW in College Station, Tx., moved up to 1620 AM about two years ago to get a wider coverage area, since there are still few other stations above 1600 on the AM dial to cause interference.
WFAA in Dallas is no longer a redio station, though its still the call letters for the ABC affiliate down there. WBAP and WRR-FM are the two Dallas-Fort Worth stations that violate the K and W rule.
Just about every station that does so -- like WHO and WOW west of the Mississipi and KYW and KOV to the east -- all were started up before 1923, when the government started assigning call letters based on the Mississippi divide. That's also the time they started demanding all stations have four call letters instead of three, so its rare when one of those stations changes call signs (WHN being one of the few exceptions).
Don't forget nearby KYW AM-1060 Philadelphia
There is also a good explanation of the WABC superb nighttime signal on the WABC Musicradio 77 website. It explains the transmitter location and the advantage of the 770 kh frequency.
It is at http://musicradio.com
Daytime I can receive WABC from Newport, RI down to Wilmington, DE and west to Harrisburg,PA with a strong signal in Philadelphia.
Nights: New Brunswick down to Florida then the signal bounces off of Cuba and may be received in Western Africa. To the west, Des Moines, Iowa and down in souther Mississippi.
Unfortunately, not here in Texas. No NYC stations in Texas ever.
Yeh, I can get KOA Denver really well and WGN Chicago also is within range here in Austin, Texas.
I once got WINS as far as the outskirts of Philadelphia, PA, but WCBS is usually stronger. I have picked up WTOP at my home in Hastings-on-Hudson in good conditions. Hell, one time I picked up a station from North Carolina a few years ago from my home in Hastings-on-Hudson.
#3 West End Jeff
DXing is fun. If you get the chance, go to Cape Hattaras, NC and you will pick up many NYC AM stations in the daytime. Also a few from Philadelphia.
Here in Austin, Texas, I listen to 84 WHAS Louisville and 700 WLW Cincinnatti at night often.
QSL BC band dxing. Ocracoke Island is a super DX location. No terrestrial noise, no obstructions and the best ground you can whip up (the Atlantic Ocean.) The island is part of the Cape Hattaras National Seashore and requires a free (YES FREEEEEEE) fourty minute ferry trip. CI Peter, WB2SGT
It must be quite interesting to DX. BTW what does DX mean.
#3 West End Jeff
Dog Xray. CQ CQ CQ DX DX DX Dog Xray de WB2SGT QRZ.
That is rather interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
Would you like some 'Dog Xray' from the Animal Medical Center??? Sometimes my friend, I HAVE TO GENERATE A LAUGH to make a day bright even if it is only for myself. Sometimes it takes a lot of time for just one SubTalker to recognize my 'off the wall' postings and my background. I've gotten some truly wonderful emails from my posts that lifted my sorry soul on bad days. You missed a post. DX refers to distant radio stations. CI Peter
Peter, I don't think Jeff speaks Ham
So true but once in a while the errant email makes it all worthwhile. CQ CQ de 6L6GB QRZ anyone??? CI Peter, maker of HAMM
Of course I would like some "Dog Xray" from the nearby animal center, NOT! Oh well I missed a post, so be it.
#3 West End Jeff
Interesting,
Off topic,
and Off thread title.
Well, one for three.
rrr ck 73 tnx for the contact gud luk in the contest pse qsl 73 de wb2sgt and hf forever. That's real radio with 572Bs lighting up a dark room on a gloomy night. TA has some real people wanting to do real work and I'm lucky to be one of them. It's not off topic...just gimme a sked and I'll blast you with a kilowatt of AM on eighty meters. CI Peter
***YEE-HAH*** YAY-EMM ***R*E*A*L***R*A*D*I*O***
I have my own 50,000 watt AM transmitter, thank you very much. It's at 880 kc, on High Island (off City Island), and too far from the subway!
But only I can pull my plug at will and my signal goes a lot farther with a lot less power. So there!!! CI Peter
Peter, my buddy W2ICQ is on 3885 BE THERE OR BE ARRL
At least he's not of the 3950 crowd.
GET ON THE AIR NOW -- 3885
Mr. Blair........it is snowing like all Hell right now and I have just warmed up my Yaesu FT-101B and FL-2100B linear after a decade of silence. The loft in my solid cedar house in New Jersey overlooking the Delaware Water Gap stinks from RF cooking up the dust, the 1 KW resistive load hooked up through 50' of RG58 patch is cooking and heating me up at 2100 VDC 500 mAmps with a BW/Waters compressor preamp. The bandswitches on my station are arcing all over the place....what i need to do right now is load up my Mossberg 500ATP riot gun with magnum buckshot for bear protection and run my Collins tape dipole out in the front four acres. IF I survive the bears, the cold and the junk I've left out in the dark.....just one question??? East/West or North/South???? CI Peter
20 minutes and all set......but Collins tape dipole hasn't seen use since VietNam and my hand was just sliced open. Just like the job...i do well under fire. Thankyou my friend for the impetus tonight. I'm watching 'Legend of the Rangers' and will try during the commercials. The ground is frozen and I am unable to hammer fibreglass stakes to support the antenna....I don't expect to climb trees right now to secure the nylon ropes. The radio is sqaulking as loud as it did twenty five years ago except for the little scratchy pot noise. I desperatly need help from the Minbari. CI Peter
Point it towards Syracuse
I'm trying...got to figure out how to balance out the dipole in bad weather...mebbe a KW will burn ice. We are Rangers...we don't allow anyone to cross the bridge. We live for the one...we die for the one...and we don't die stupid. The tape dipole sliced my right hand open and the cold doesn't allow the bleeding to stop. Twenty six years ago I climbed a radar mast on an oil tanker to provide emergency communications. I know this is a hobby but I want to do this...I also need the rest and relaxation from SciFi TV. Snow and ice is building...do 8AM Church service. A cruiser from Minbar with laser cannnons could make my day. CI Peter
DX- I do not know. I looked through some of my books and refreshed my memory about lA clear channel stations in the 60kh frequencies.
680 KNBR San Francisco
640 KFI Los Angeles call letters for 650 are WSM Nashville.
It seems that 640 KFI is the lowest frequency clear channel station.
There is another term, "QSL". No one knows what that stands for. A QSL card is sent to a listener who writes to a far off radio station giving them a reception report. (AM only) QSL cards have been around for 80 years.
DX- I do not know. I looked through some of my books and refreshed my memory about lA clear channel stations in the 60kh frequencies.
DX means Distant, and refers to the practice of receiving faraway radio transmissions. It's commonly used in the amateur radio world, but you can DX with anything - like "vanilla" AM. Amateur DXing is something of a sport.
There is another term, "QSL". No one knows what that stands for. A QSL card is sent to a listener who writes to a far off radio station giving them a reception report. (AM only) QSL cards have been around for 80 years.
Another term popular in the amateur world - Q-codes are "radio shorthand" for certain phrases or questions, and QSL is "acknowledge." Amateur operators exchange QSL cards as a courtesy when making contact. I believe Q-codes (and other similar practices) originated because it's quicker to key off a few letters than it is to key an entire sentence in Morse code.
I read up on it a long time ago, but soon lost interest and never took the test.
Mark
CQ CQ DX de WB2SGT QRZ and QSL.
CQ: general call for any answer
DX: any distant (usually foreign) station
QRZ: an abbreviation used for 'who are you'
QSL: an abbreviation used for 'please send a written acknowledgement for the contact or reception
'Dog Xray': film of dead animal guts
73 de CI Peter, WB2SGT
There was an extensive thread on this topic on the New York Radio Message Board about two weeks ago. Use its search engine for yankees wcbs.
When someone on that board gets on to a transit topic, I refer them here :-)
By the way, many other CBS/Infinity "Newsradio" stations are not news 24 hours. Examples include WBZ Boston, KNX Los Angeles, and KCBS San Francisco.
Back on topic (marginally), KNX Los Angeles started doing Traffic and Weather Together every six minutes vs. ten minutes after one of the big earthquakes some years ago. And they still do.
many other CBS/Infinity "Newsradio" stations are not news 24 hours.
And I think 1010 WINS has picked up on this. They now say they're "New York's only 24-hour news station" or something like that. They also say more people listen to them than any other radio station in the nation. Wow.
Back on topic, sorta, their transit info can still be pretty lame.
I thought WBCS Radio never went 100% news. I seem to recall they carried Arthur Godfrey (or some other oldtime radio personality) as long as he could draw breath.
Also, don't they carry the audio feed from "60 minutes."
Kind of OT to this OT: There is some tradition to carrying shows on radio and TV both. When I was a kid there was a show "The Children's Hour," IIRC it ws carried on WNBC 660 radio and WNBT (Channel 4) television. There was a 5-minute radio newscast smack in the middle of the program (in those days, LOTS of radio stations carried hourly news) so on the TV show they put up some kind of graphic while they played the Horn & Hardart jingle "Less Work for Mother." Not the most thrilling five minutes of the "Golden Age of TV."
I thought WBCS Radio never went 100% news. I seem to recall they carried Arthur Godfrey (or some other oldtime radio personality) as long as he could draw breath.
Also, don't they carry the audio feed from "60 minutes"?
Kind of OT to this OT: There is some tradition to carrying shows on radio and TV both. When I was a kid there was a show "The Children's Hour," IIRC it ws carried on WNBC 660 radio and WNBT (Channel 4) television. There was a 5-minute radio newscast smack in the middle of the program (in those days, LOTS of radio stations carried hourly news) so on the TV show they put up some kind of graphic while they played the Horn & Hardart jingle "Less Work for Mother." Not the most thrilling five minutes of the "Golden Age of TV."
This explanation seems to make reasonable sense. Remember, while WINS and WCBS are co-owned (by Infinity Broadcasting, a Viacom company, operator of the CBS Radio Network), they still compete. And both bring in substantial revenue. Having different "products" is good positioning in the marketplace. Remember, GM is owns "competing" brands Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, GMC Truck, (and soon to go) Oldsmobile.
Back sort of on topic (in topic?)... I fully expect that Transit and Weather Together and news updates will be an integral part of Yankees baseball. It was when WCBS ran the Jets way-back-when.
CBS/Infinity is in the same position in Los Angeles they are in New York, owning KNX -- which still broadcasts old-time radio shows at night -- and also the other all-news station, KFWB.
BTW -- In Dallas, CBS/Infinity's KRLD just went all-news 24 hours a day on Monday, but will continue to be the flagship station for the Texas Rangers this season. Given their signings of Juan Gonzalez and Carl Everett and their continued lack of pitching, that should mean a lot of long stretches at night this spring and summer when the all-news station will be preoccupied with baseball (don't know if they're going to dump their 60-minute post-game call-in show this year due to the all-news format, but if not, that will mean no news for stretches of 4 1/2 to five hours every gameday).
KRLD Dallas- Still has "The Lost Tapes" on Saturday night 10-Midnight CST. The Lost Tapes hosted by George Gimarc is about obscure music, mostly rock and roll. He plays songs, takes calls and does not do any news at all.
Yesterday, the show was often interrupted by election returns for a mayoral election, but only for about five minutes at a time, three times an hour. Here in Texas, elections (except for President) are always on Saturday.
Yep, listening to it a couple of nights ago, I see they also still have their one-hour Internet show from 7-8 p.m. Monday through Friday, so CBS/Infinity's definition of a "24-hour-a-day all news station" is a little bit different in Dallas than it is in New York.
Thanks, Todd...I'll check out that link! -Nick
In the 1970's, CBS interrupted the news for one hour in the evening to present: CBS Radio Mystery Theatre, which I listened to all the time. E.G. Marshall emceed, and such actors as Fred Gwynne (TV's Herman Munster from the '60s) would provide character voices. Each show was a three act play, with Marshall doing a bit of commentary. Great stuff. Wish it were still with us.
This is not without precedent. WCBS aired Jets football and St Johns basketball games in the early thru mid 80s.
--Mark
Thats just what viacom wants. Viacom owns both 1010 wins and wcbs. ITs a win win for them
If I'm not mistaken, even WFAN is owned by Infinity--which is owned by CBS. (At least, that's what I-man always says) "WFAN, an Infinity Broadcasting Station"
Stuart, Rline86Man
WFAN is owned by Infinity, a Viacom business unit. CBS is no longer a "company," (all of its stock was bought out by Viacom) but a division of Infinity (Infinity also owns advertising properties, such as subway and bus station ad venues -- there! On topic!)
SO when I do my work on the R142s I should see the big nose of Howard Stern looking down 'sternly' upon me. The R142 instructor refers to the GFI outlet in the transverse cab as the 'Howard Stern radio outlet.' CI Peter
Viacom owns Paramount, which owns UPN. Does that mean that Viacom owns two TV networks (granted, oning UPN is like owning an illegal low-power radio station). Why does the FCC not frown upon this?
But when the ***A*W*E*S*O*M*E***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S***, the best team for all time, play the game that they have MASTERED, it is BIG MEWS. Fear the ***A*W*E*S*O*M*E***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S***!
I didn't read this entire thread, so I don't know if anyone gave this answer, but it makes sense for one of the 2 stations , either WCBS or WINS not to be full time news, becuase they are both owned by Infinity and as full time newsstations, they compete with each other. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. WCBS has also shed much of its high price talent in recent years, (Neil Busch comes to mind) and I would not be suprised if they eventually change the format of the entire station and WINS remains a full time news station to compete with Bloomberg.
Mark, go back to the very beginning of the thread. The key point:
Both stations make a lot of money for Viacom/Infinity Broadcasting. They are co-owned, but compete..... it's the American Way. Think GM -- Buick, Olds, Caddy, Chevvy, etc. Many corporate giants in many industries, such as food, energy, insurance, banking, etc. have co-owned competitors. It allows them to have scarf up more of the marketplace.
If you want to keep up on NYC radio, read the New York Radio Message Board -- you'll find a lot more there about radio there than here on SubTalk :-)
Did you know that 1010 WINS wasn't full power clear channel because schmucko owner of WRNJ 1000 Kc Hackettstown NJ bunny rabbit off the air by sundown claimed interference??? He got bookoo bucks changing frequency. CI Peter
Well, I talked with one of my radio friends about this. We agreed, that if they both make money then they will stay "as is".
That is the bottom line.
With this deal, you can say goodbye to a lot of 'free TV' Yankee Games. Ch 2 will only be broadcasting 20 or so, where FOX used to show 50. Add in FOX national coverage, and there will be approximately 30 Yankee games you can see on Free TV. It's going to look a lot like the Rangers, Knicks, Nets, Islanders, and Devils. What, no cable? Buy a ticket!
Note that Boston, Philadelphia, LA, and Chicago all show regular season hockey and basketball games on broadcast channels.
-Hank
But those cities don't have $teingrabber and all those mouths to feed. Maybe all that extra cash will pay for a stadium so WE don't have to.
Whats your favorite county?
Personally, I like the Bronx. Areas like Riverdale are nice and quiet.
Wake Hill offers a bird's eye view of the GW bridge and the NJ palisades. Area around co-op city reminds me of the country. Shore Parkway is like the NYS Route 6 of the Bronx. For those who don't know, that is a two lane highway that passes through Harriman Park in upstate NY. Nice and rural.
If you want rural Staten Island really has that feeling. Love the Hylan Blvd corridor from Great Kills to Tottenville. Feels really, really "out there".
As far as my favorite borough, Manhattan has it all no contest.
As far as most scenic borough, I'd say Staten Island.
I lived in Queens most of my 14 years in New York and it is the home of the Mets. But the Mets didn't exist in my New York days, and my fondest memories were of Brooklyn, so I go with that. Ebbets Field, Coney Island, the Brooklyn Bridge, Prospect Park, Grand Army Plaza, etc. Brooklyn was the place. It once also had remarkable schools, and was known as the borough of homes and churches. If you want me to get current and get off the nostalgia, then I go with Queens.
Well my favorite borough is Queens. Nice and quiet on the Southern side.
Personally I like Manhattan because, everything is there (foods theater shows, shoping plazas, you name it; and most of all, where I grew up. Second, I like Queens especially (Rockaway Park) because of beautiful beaches-where it is much cleaner than CI.
Born, raised and still live in the Bronx, so you can guess what my vote is for in regard to favorite.
If I wanted to vote for exciting then Manhattan has that vote.
I was born in Brooklyn, raised in Queens and have lived most of the last 30 years in Nassau. I can't decide :-)
Reminds me of a song of yesteryear---"They call me mr. inbetween." Well you have company. I'm torn between Queens and Brooklyn.
Nitpick time!
Shore Parkway is like the NYS Route 6 of the Bronx. For those who
don't know, that is a two lane highway that passes through Harriman Park in upstate NY. Nice and rural.
That's US Route 6. Otherwise, right you are!
:-) Andrew
Brooklyn. Nice mix of El's and Open Cuts.
We were talking about favorite SUBWAY Boro, yes?
I don't know if he means favorite subway borough Piasan. If he does, then it's no contest. BROOKLYN by a marathon. The Sea Beach, Brighton, Culver, West End. Good grief, what other borough has that to offer subway buffs. Manhattan? Come off it, those trains don't even see the light of day in that place.
Brooklyn Rules! No Question!
BMTman
You mean the New York-occupied City of Brooklyn.
Give that man a Ceegar!!! ;-D
Preferably an exploding one ;=)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi ya, Chris!
LOL!
Queens!
:-) Andrew
Favorite boro? Brighty of the Grand Canyon. I loved that story when I was a kid. :O)
Brooklyn...no contest. Staten Island is too remote and lacks rapid transit. Many areas of queens are fairly new and lack character. The bronx has more than its fair share of poverty, but has some nice areas. Unfortulately, many of the old, beautiful buildings were torched a few years back. And manhattan.....over-rated center of america. costs way too much to live there, and too many yuppies. Brooklyn is not only beautiful, but its cheaper than manhattan, more diverse, and has very good transit. what more could you possibly ask for?
Now that's logic ya can't mess with!
;-D
BMTman
I love them all. Every borough.
New York City is the capital of the world. If you don't believe me, check 34th Street on the East Side. It's right there.
I love them all. Every borough.
Corny as it sounds, I'm afraid I agree. Even Staten Island.
New York City is the capital of the world. If you don't believe me, check 34th Street on the East Side. It's right there.
What, NYU Medical Center?
That's what great about democracy Howard, we are all entitled to our opinions---but the Bronx?????? The area I saw around 235th to 242nd Street looked like a nice area to me. Perhaps I have to see more, but of those places I passed on the subway, yike, what a rathole. Brighton Express Bob and I rode the #5 last August all the way to its northern Bronx terminal. What a wasteland! And the #4 route isn't any better until you get to Moshalu Parkway, and that's the next to last stop. I do know the Bronx was once a nice place, but for some reason they have not been able to attract the yuppie types that bring restoration to neighborhoods, or any real businesses for that matter.
Indeed, the area from 235th to 242nd (Spuyten Duyvil) is a very pretty area. it sure beats the shit outta sunnyside.....except it lacks 10 minute service to midtown and those lovely redbirds grinding down Qns Blvd
Brooklyn -- Home of:
The BMT
Coney Island (birthplace of the Roller Coaster and the Hot Dog, home of: Nathans; Totonno's; Cyclone; WonderWheel etc.)
Brighton Beach and Boardwalk ("Getcha knishes and creamsicles!!")
Half of The Brooklyn Bridge (the less stuck-up half)
The Atlantic Avenue Tunnel
Egg creams
Best pizza
Need I go on?
Alan Glick
Half of The Brooklyn Bridge (the less stuck-up half)
Less than half, the entire East River is in Manhattan.
Also, where are you going to find an egg cream nowadays (no, seriously, I'd really like to know)?
Less than half, the entire East River is in Manhattan.
Those greedy so-and-sos
Also, where are you going to find an egg cream nowadays (no, seriously, I'd really like to know)?
Good question. I was engaging in fond memories.
Alan Glick
Brooklyn. Ya got a problem wit dat, buddy? :)
--Mark
No problem at all. Go for it.
If for some reason you were trying to contact me to no avail, that's because Me and the Wifey (aka The Better Half) took a little sabbatical to Nassau, Bahamas for 5 days. Here's what I had seen, and gone through:
Subways: The locals call it scuba diving. Otherwise, there are no train/trolley services whatsoever in Nassau which is the capital.
Buses: They have a bit of an odd way to supply bus services in Nassau. The buses are actually known as Jitneys (like in Atlantic City). Each bus has the line number, and the route painted on the mini-bus which seats about 24 people. The fare is either 75 cents or $1 depending on the route travelled (one Bahamian Dollar is on par with one US dollar, and American money is widely used, in fact more so than Bahamian money). Also, each single bus is independently owned and operated, so there is no version of a Transit Authority to oversee daily operations. I'm guessing that each route is bid on for say a 3 year period from the Bahamian government, and the highest bidder wins the right to operate his bus along the line. The busier route would fetch the higher bids. Bus service is reliable, however they stop running around 7 pm. What strikes me as being odd is that there are no public bus services serving Paradise Island which is heavily populated with tourists. This is so the tourists can pay premium prices for cabs and water ferries.
Costs: If you're going to The Bahamas, especially to Paradise Island/Atlantis, these words: BRING MONEY!!!! AND LOTS OF IT!!!! The Bahamas ain't cheap (I say that it's the most expensive place I've ever been to, kinda like Tokyo with palm trees). And Paradise Island is a total ripoff with the Atlantis taking the prize of worst ripoff ever. Take a look at these prices at the Atlantis in most of their restaurants and regular food stands (these are NOT room service prices, those are higher):
One Hot Dog w/fries: $8.50
Cheeseburger: $9.50
Bagel with Cream Cheese: $5.00
Regular Potato Knish: $6.50
12 oz. Steak: $38.00
12 oz. can of soda: $2.50
One alcoholic drink: $6.50
Breakfast special: Two eggs with bacon or sausage, homefries, coffee, toast & juice: $16.00
Also, a 15% service charge is automatically added to all food/drink bills in all Bahamian establishments (except grocery stores) regardless of whether service was awful/good.
To make things even worse, when you went to the local grocery stores and local restaurants within Paradise Island, they'd hit you just as hard in the wallet for their own food, maybe 10-15% cheaper than Atlantis prices. The people are extremely nice and hospitable, and the beaches are something to be seen. Never before was I able to see my feet while neck-deep in the ocean waters. And it's like that for their rivers too.
I'd reccommend that you see The Bahamas at least once, but just stay away from Paradise Island.
What strikes me as being odd is that there are no public bus services serving Paradise Island which is heavily populated with tourists. This is so the tourists can pay premium prices for cabs and water ferries.
That must be a hardship for the local people who work at the Paradise Island resorts. Unless maybe the hotels run employee shuttles.
They do have an employee shuttle bus that runs across the Bridge into Nassau where they can wait for a public bus. But could you imagine how it is during inclement weather? I'm quite sure that it's a bit rougher there given it's tropical climate.
>>Breakfast special: Two eggs with bacon or sausage, homefries, coffee, toast & juice: $16.00<<
And those ads on TV say "It's better in the Bahamas" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The same rules apply in Cancun, Q. Roo, MX and Acapulco. VERY expen$ive prices within the 'tourist' zone, but travel outside to the where the locals traverse, and prices drop big time. To grocery shop within the confines of the tourist area you pay 4-5X that in the non-toursit areas.
But the local bus system is keen, A/C, and frequency of less than 5every 5 minutes, for 2 pesos!
hey What happened to the 110A , 110B are they ever going to be back in service or there going to scrap them. Its a shame that they didnt use the 67' mesaurements for the R143 since those cars would be the biggest cars to run on Eastern Division equaling more capacity. I think the R160 cars should either be built to 75" to replace the older B division cars or 67" measure so they could run on all B division lines and have a good amount of capacity. Anyone agree with me. Feel Free to comment.
R160's if and when they are build will be 60". The TA is getting away from 75" becouse of there problem on the Easten Divisions, and 67" are no good bexouse the C/R has always has section that if more then 300" long and this is not allowed becouse of safty.
Robert
Has anyone been bright enough to suggest a single 67 ft car with a transverse cab smack-in-the-middle. Thus a four car set of (abba) a single car with a center transverse cab, then a four car set (abba)
Yes,I know that would be different!
Better yet, all b cars would have a center position that could be converted to a transverse cab from two opposing compartments with two seat each, with see through plexie-glass walls.
We wouldn't Selkirk Kevin blessing the Canarsie Forest or the Ridgewood Mountains or the Greenpoint Meadows. Heh Heh Heh!
I still pine for the return of the R/110b.
What was its new designation, R/133 or R/134?
avid
Why bother with a cab? Just put controls between two doors in the middle of the car, and let the conductor mingle with the crowds. Worked fine on the Standards. :-)
-- Ed Sachs
Security, or the pretense of security.
avid
Or why not do it a la pre-war IND units, let the poor schmuck straddle those two small platforms above the marker lights and pray he doesn't fall in between the cars.
I can only think what they went thru on rotten days on the Gowanus portion of the IND.....
Wasn't just the pre-war IND units that had the conductor perched between the cars -- that was the way it was from the time of gate cars. IRT Hi and Lo-Vs had them that way, and I think so did the MUDC (enclosed platform) El cars. On the BMT, El cars (gate cars, C and Q types) as well as the triplexes did this.
In NYCTA days, the R10, R12 and R14 cars also had the conductors between the cars.
-- Ed Sachs
Once the R-12s and R-14s went over to the mainlines, they never ran in solid trains again except for those used on the 3rd Ave. el. IIRC they were never placed in the middle of a train where the conductor was stationed specifically so that conductors would not be exposed to the elements. It made sense on the IRT, where most lines were elevated at least on part of a route. The R-10s OTOH always ran in solid trains except for a few rare instances during the smorgasbord train era of the late 60s and early 70s. Since most of the IND was underground, conductors didn't have to worry about the elements.
Ex-SQUEEZE me? Brighton line, snow, rain, sleet ... D train. 'nuff said. But I got better ... well, at least I wanna think so. Heh. Made ya DAMNED grateful though after the bridge when you went inside for a while.
The Brighton line is still a BMT line IMHO. I meant pre-Chrystie St. IND lines. The only outdoor portion, exclusing the World's Fair Railroad, is the Gowanus Canal crossing.
What about the "A" train to the Rockaways? If I'm not mistaken, the R10s provided exclusive service on the "A" and that went outdoors to the Rockaways, as well as Lefferts Blvd. in 1956, well before Chrystie St.
To much seperation on curves., all of the C/Rs would have to be from the NBA to reach!
avid
>>>. Worked fine on the Standards. :-) <<<
....and still works fine for PATH.
Peace,
ANDEE
and the LIRR/Metro-North :)
Stuart, RLine86Man and JamaicaStationMan
and the LIRR/Metro-North :)
Stuart, RLine86Man and JamaicaStationMan
Why not have articulated trains. I rode the new metior trains in paris over the summer. The articualted cars were bright and airy. I have some video of the paris metro if anyone is interested. I will be happy to post it if someone could enlighten me on how to do so or I was thinking of making it available through kazaa/morpheus file sharing software (software can be downloaded from www.musiccity.com). Call the file something like PAris Metro.
Any sugestions let me know.
We've talked about a return to the old BMT articulate trains in the past on the board. A 150-foot long multisectional with three sections of 50-feet apiece (roughly the same as the current IRT cars), which would allow there to be nine doors every 150 feet, or 36 doors in a 600-foot train. That's four more than the current 75-footers (although four less than a 10-car train of 60 footers), and the cars could go anywhere on the system, which of course the R-44, R-46 and R-68s can't.
When it comes time for the MTA to start thinking about replacing the R-44s, they should consider articulted cars.
If, as some here have suggested, new cars were equipped with video cameras and monitors, the C/R's cab could be anywhere (even, in theory, not on the train at all). There would be no need for transverse cabs; if the TA deems the extra crew space warranted, it could be provided by extending the cab back a bit.
Make the whole train articulated and the center car tranverse cab would not lok out of place at all. THe articulated trains on the paris metro were buetiful
I still don't get how 143s are being used on the Eastern Div platforms. I thought the platforms were shorter. Or are they only shorter for J/M/Z? But if they are, aren't there plans of 143s being used on the M?
I'd like the 160s to not be 75 ft. 60 ft seemed fine. Either way I'd like to just be able to cross through the cars.
A train of eight R-143s is the same length as a train of eight R-40s or R-42s.
The R-160 order is planned to be for 60-foot cars in four-car and five-car sets. The four-car sets are anticipated to go to the "Eastern Division," and it is not known where the five-car sets will go, although Queens Boulevard (E) has been mentioned.
David
Oh, ok. I thought the R143s were 75 footers. I completly forgot there were 10 cars on the Sea Beach express tracks.
Hello, a four car set + a five car setof r/143s = nine car set. That woud be just fine to capture the Flushing Line and send it thru the Sixtith St Tunnel and call it the "N". Sent The #7 to Asstoria.
The Flushing line needs the Volumn and additioal Doors.
avid.
Not a bad idea. Start working on the passengers and the local politicians...
David
But then the Flushing line would have to share space with the R, at the very least. It currently has exclusive use of the Steinway tubes.
What yard facilities will be available for your #7 Astoria Line?
Bad idea. There aren't enough N trains -- or N and W trains for that matter -- to run both a local and express service between Queensboro Plaza and Main Street during rush hours, unless you eliminate R service to Continental Ave. through the 60th Street tunnel.
So long as the Steinway tubes are the width they are and the passenger load on the Flushing line is what it is, the 7 train will continue to serve it because it can handle 30 TPH on a dedicated line. The best an N/W combo could do is 20 TPH and since both trains share trackage with the R, Q and even the M train at some point, that chances of problems on one of those lines causing problems east of QP increases.
J.Lee, You are correct, route the R thru the 63rd St tunnel.
The #7 goes to Asstoria, still using Steinway tubes.
The N and W to Main St.
Displaced r/40m r/42 from L go to N and W .
avid
Capacity per car is irrelevant. Capacity per train is the relevant question. Of course a 60-foot car has a lower capacity than a 75-foot car, but that's not the proper comparison since a train isn't made up of one car.
How often do passenger trains at 239th St Yard use the loop? Do work trains make the most use out of that track?
Most (if not all) wash trains pass through the 239th St car wash and down into the yard, with the T/O changing ends to take his train home.
-Stef
The J/Z Elevated structure goes over the roof of a building at the sharp curve onto Crescent Street.
1. Does anyone know what building this is? Is it a store?
2. Are there any other buildings/houses that have an elevated train above them?
Curious thought---which came first, the building or the El?
Tunnel Rat
The Brighton line passes over buildings on the east side of Coney Island Avenue just north of Brighton Beach Avenue.
The buildings under the el are shorter than the ones surrounding them. They obviously came later.
I worked in that area for a brief time in early 1999. I believe that the store is (or was) either a 99 cent store or a Supermarket (one is next the other).
Does anyone know if the maximum speed for a trainset can be specified so BVE won't let the train exceed it? I just hit 100MPH on the Manny B! It may be fun, but it's not very realistic. Perhaps audio samples of passengers screaming should be added for when you take the Franklin Shuttle at 65mph... :)
--
Ian Penovich
BVE is ALL kph, not mph.
And top speed is set in the train data file. 100 MPH on a downslope on the bridge is QUITE possible actually - if there's to be no survivors at the bottom. Word I've heard around the circuits is that the upcoming BVE 3 *will* include the ability to specify trippers, GT and POSSIBLY wheel detector capabilities making use of "local zone speeds" and "emergency trip" ...
If the speeds are set properly in the train file though, you should be getting a "speed limit exceeded" in red right below the geese-o-meter. Some route files are poorly done though ...
The speed a train can reach is set in the train.dat file. The speed limit it set by the author of a route in the .csv or .rw file.
Yeah, you got me ... should have been more specific ... the DAT file determines the TRAIN'S maximums whereas you can set the limits for portions of a route in the ROUTE files ... and of course since NYCTA modelling likes to have that LED speedo silliness, there's the "can only show KM/H and not MP/H there" ... Mackoy is supposedly taking care of this also in BVE3 from some Japanese friends who can read his chickenscratch. :)
He's still being pestered though by folks wanting that damned ammeter for their mighty diesels. The "blind or programmed trip" sounds like a nice feature though if it makes it into the new build ... I'm glad he doesn't feel pressured by MSTS ...
He's got microsft beat entirely on price, if nothing else.
-Robert King
Heh. I don't mind paying for something that's good. But Microsoft makes you pay to be incessantly tortured too ... that price is too f'ing high. Mackoy COULD charge for his thing, and I'd GLADLY pay. BVE is THAT good ...
Peh, Peh I say.... MSTS is obtainable for $29.95 in the City. Peh I say.
Had a friend drop off a hard disk with MSTS on it for a "review" of MSTS ... finally had a few hours to play with a "working copy" of it and all I can say is "GEEZ" ... I've never been so underwhelmed in my life.
First thing is the "tracks" ... flat as Mechanik original and as soul-less ... then there's the (ahem) "scenery" ... nice rendering of the grass, hilly shapes leap around like a dancing electrical wire hitting ground. Sound is a bland loop of ... well, sounds better on the "Outside the train" experience but pretty lame in the cab. No sway, no bounce, no "feel" like you're in a train. Even the "views" are lame in the "outside the train experience" and most unsettling is how SHORT the turnouts are.
No warnings of upcoming speed changes, no warnings of diverges, signals don't seem to change, speed limits didn't match the cab signalling (NE corridor, Nip lines or the freight), no indication of grade, and just nothing that matches actually operating a train. Pretty easy to crash though and tracks just seem to end abruptly dumping you on the ground.
Overall, MSTS just plain sucks. At least to me who is spoiled by BVE. MSTS is nothing more than a poor rendition of Mechanik with better shading of the ground textures. Handed back my friend's hard disk and said no thanks. I'll stick with BVE ... having been spared the aggravation of installing and setting it up, every bit of the MSTS experience (especially the cardboard cutout trainsets) just plain sucks.
Now as to your razzing, old buddy - clearly you haven't really seen BVE do its thing yet. WE FIX. :)
if we fix, then we wait fi dem fixing me mon
I can't wait. That'll make operating my R68A much more interesting. Hit a red? Don't try to recharge and get moving all at once. ::snickers::
Once I discovered that I could ignore red signals with impunity, I gave my friendly G passengers an unannounced high-speed express ride from Smith-9th to Court Square. (Just spreading the good times we get on the 1 on a regular basis.) Yes, I honked in the TA-approved fashion.
Heh. I'm still trying to find a legal way to break the rubber band at the end of the station ... (and yes, there IS a way, you just add another stop beyond the terminal and change the terminal "=" to a "1")
Word is though when Mackoy finishes version 3 and puts it out in a couple of months, you'll be tripped TA style. Even suggested a big plastic cup replace the tracks as a reminder. :)
interesting. Hows about taking a nice big Dash 9 with 50 Chemical cars behind yeeee on the Chicago Els, ever tried that boy?
There ARE freight scenarios available in BVE that can be readily transplanted onto a Manhattan bridge Q train if you want, though you'd have to create your own route for that specific one. I'm not sure if anyone's done the Chicago els for BVE yet, but with SO many "here's how to create your own stuff" sites popping up, shouldn't be too long before someone does it ...
With so many folks foaming over MSTS lately, figured I'd give it another go and try to be objective. Spent the greater part of today toying with MSTS and I *still* think it sucks ... sorry. :)
Ah, the WHIZ QUIZ
It's all about REALISM, something sadly lacking in MSTS. Maybe some folks in Redmond should see the TA nurse. :)
Trainz has been outfor less than a month and they're already getting ready to issue a service pack. M$ doesn't need to see the nurse, they need to wake up. I prescribe high dose Benzedrene. 8~0
Heh. TRAINZ also looks VERY nice although they're off in yet another direction, that of a VIRTUAL model train layout rather than a "rail simulator" where the focus is operating. Dunno what MSTS' trip is, they seem to want to try to cover all bases and like a jack of all trades, do them all poorly. Still, I guess for folks that don't know the difference, MSTS is cool and all but if you've run trains it just doesn't do it. Now TRAINZ on the other hand if they don't get too greedy with their "rolling stock licences" will probably develop QUITE the following among modellers ... their artwork is STUNNING ...
I've tried to ask this once already, but not gotten a satisfactory explanation. By the time the order for the R-38s went in, hadn't the TA seen plenty of rust on plenty of cars? Hadn't they figured out that the R-32s were stainless steel for a reason? Why would they have even entertained the idea of going back to carbon steel? But yet they did, and it seems that half the fleet is now built out of duct tape. Can anyone explain the blunder?
By the time the order for the R-38s went in, hadn't the TA seen plenty of rust on plenty of cars? Hadn't they figured out that the R-32s were stainless steel for a reason? Why would they have even entertained the idea of going back to carbon steel? But yet they did, and it seems that half the fleet is now built out of duct tape. Can anyone explain the blunder?
They certainly had plenty of experience with the R11's which were also 100% stainless and the R10's which were bought at the same time.
If car bodies did not rust out, there would be less work for car design within the TA and less need for car designers. Job security was rationalized on the basis of faulty cost "effectivness" data.
On the subject of duct tape, I don't see very much of it on the Redbirds. I am missing it or is it not there. And if it is not there, why???????????
They use lots and lots of Bondo instead.
A good analogy to the original question would be recommended oil and filter change intervals in automobile owner's manuals. I had to laugh when I saw the recommended filter change intervals in my folks' '86 Olds Firenza manual: every 12 months or 7500 miles. I concluded they do that on purpose so that the dealership can see you a few years later when the engine fails and it's time for a new car. That car will be 16 years old in April and is still oil-tight after almost 144,000 miles, and change the oil and filter every 3 months or 3000 miles.
A lot of the 'birds that were being held together by duct tape are now sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic off the Delaware coastline. If not, there are a few of them still running on the #5 line (look, as always, for the 7000 series and 8000 series with the green stripe below the number plate, if its not rusted over).
Because Budd had a better handle on stainless steel fabrication
than St. Louis
Budd actually had a UNIQUE welding method that no other car maker was able to get a handle on doing - that was Budd's little secret. I had dug up some detail on it several months ago and posted it here, though I have NO idea of which message and where in the archives it went. The successors of Budd (Bombardier maybe?) got the technique and special equipment. But it was the "shot weld" that made it possible for Budd to underbid the other vendors with expensive all-stainless construction.
See patent number 1,944,106 approved 16 Jan 1934 (Electric Welding).
THAT'S the secret! Thanks for the detail on it! :)
And yet the TA never awarded another contract to Budd after the R32s. It's too bad, really. Maybe we'd have a lot less cars with roof troubles.
Budd kinda went under between the 32's and the next car class they were awarded. Damned shame too ...
And a lot more cars lasting longer.
Them maybe the TA should have stayed with Budd. But they didn't and look what it got them.
AHHH....stainless steel and duct tape still mix well together on my R142s. All hermetically sealed electronic mech doors are refastened with duct tape to assure the trainset leaves inspection safe and secure. CI Peter
The contract bid calls for;
Price of all stainless steel
Price for LATH
Price for....
The lowest bidder was SLC for LATH material.
If the bid was for stainless steel only, Red Lion PA would have been busy.
Check out a copy of today's New York Post.
The headline is "GHOST TRAIN".
The photo is at the ground zero site and there is the remains of the PATH train abandoned at the WTC center station on Sept. 11th.
The cars haven't seen any kind of daylight since Sept.11th, but unfortunately at the former WTC site. The cars from a distance look bashed, sorry, I can't see the car numbers.
This photo is a chilling reminder of what happened on 9/11 and the PATH WTC station we all went through in better times. My guess is that the entire train MAY be scrapped on site. Removal of debris above the WTC station will surely damage the remaining unscathed cars. That's my guess,and I could be wrong.
Buy a copy while they still are available. This copy is the Late City Final.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Post is a bit behind, don't you think?
Everyone (at least all of us here) knew there was a train buried in the station. That was established right at the start.
The link: http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/38632.htm
Yeah but we were looking for stuff like that. Your average New Yorker probably never thought to think if there was still a train in the station.
>>The Post is a bit behind, don't you think?
Everyone (at least all of us here) knew there was a train buried in the station. That was established right at the start.<<
I don't think the Post is a bit behind. The picture clearly shows the progress of clearing the site. The publicity over the months focused on Ground Zero, with little coverage of what lies beneath it. I didn't see many newsworthy shots of IRT Cortlandt as I would have liked.
Bill "Newkirk"
A co-worker just gave me a copy of the Post. That is quite a picture.
While I always had an idea of how deep 7 floors down was, as I have been at that station many times, that picture was an eye opener.
Too bad that picture is online. That will be a keeper.
>>A co-worker just gave me a copy of the Post. That is quite a picture.
While I always had an idea of how deep 7 floors down was, as I have been at that station many times, that picture was an eye opener.<<
It also goes to show us how swift the recovery is going as well as how vast the devastion is. We can all look at that picture and remember when we were down there last. It's never going to look the same !
The last time I was there was on the Saturday when Hoboken Festival 2001 (Try Transit Festival) was being held. I attended the 207th St shop tour that morning. After that, a ride on the #1 Bway Local to 96th St and an express to Chambers and a #1 to Cortlandt.
I've been there many times and never took any pictures figuring the need for that. Now I wish I had, we all take for granted of using a certain facility and never batting an eyelash. It's five months after the fact and still can't believe what happened and how everything has changed radically.
Bill "Newkirk"
First, it's 4 months. Second, this is the first time I've heard news of the train being unearthed, IOW, it's been buried under the rubble for 4 months and only now are they exposing it.
They showed the train appearing from a hole on channel 4. They claim that the "bathtub" is indeed leaking, and that workers are trying to keep plugging it up.
I just can't seem to get this photo tn the post's website...any ideas?
thanks...Karl.
I just can't seem to get this photo tn the post's website...any ideas?
Only a small selection of each paper's photos are on the website.
SallamAllah posted a picture of the PATH cars in WTC earlier.
no ...33rd st station BUT i did get a railfan window view shot of a PATH train coming in .
& i did shoot video under the WTC ...
KARL M.
I tried to e-mail you a link top the article, but they come back undelivered. Having trouble with your e-mail ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yea, try brtman@att.net,that's my home e-mail address....thanks karl
I saw a shot of it on Channel 5 news; one car is x39, not sure if it is 139, 639 or 739; it has the big numerals so it's not a PA-4; I will keep an eye out for it on later newscasts.
wayne
Was definitely 139, you could see it clearly on the news report that I saw.
Yeah, Bill, I just saw the cover of today's NY Post. That's quite a cover!
I'd guess that the most heavily damaged of the cars will be scrapped, but would surmise that PATH might restore the least damaged to passenger service (or MOW duty).
BMTman
Kawasaki built strong PATH cars for PATH. Did you look at the upper corner of page 4? My school's in the paper again.
Channel Four ran this story about the PATH cars on the 5 o'clock news.
They also added that the slurry wall also know as "the bathtub" is leaking. Construction crews are shoring up the leaks as reported by Channel 4. Let's hope this doesn't spell trouble for the redevelopment of this area.
Bill "Newkirk"
They also added that the slurry wall also know as "the bathtub" is leaking. Construction crews are shoring up the leaks as reported by Channel 4. Let's hope this doesn't spell trouble for the redevelopment of this area.
I agree, but remember leaks aren't collapses. If water is seeping, it can be pumped out. If a chunk of the bathtub collapses, all bets are off and the safety of the crews at Ground Zero is compromised.
Let us hope ....
Let us hope....maybe a tunnel full of ARC-5s set for 3-6 mHz opens up. CI Peter
I remember seeing those years ago for 5 bucks at the Rochester Hamfest. Receiver or transmitter including dynamotor. Now I gotta upgrade so I can get on the YAY EMM ragchews NO CONTESTS, NO SIDEBAND and just enough CW to get the ticket, Then NO MORE CODE, EVER!!!
Who is the idiot at the NY Post that wrote this ? ? ?
"That hub might combine access to PATH trains, 14 city subway lines, and Long Island Rail Road trains, as well as retail shops. "
LIRR at the WTC ? ? ?
Someone probably went into their files and dug out the story from a couple of months ago when there was a discussion about putting an LIRR station downtown as well as extending Metro North down from GCT to the WTC area.
Of course no other details were provided and the two ideas were mostly wishful thinking by some subrubanite(s) about where they want the lines to go so they don't have to transfer to the subway every day. Of course, there's a lot of the same stuff posted here all the time (by me included), but we don't promote our ideas to 900,000 other people without offering any follow up on how it would be built or what it would cost.
Are those Target M-1s still dead-ended at Calverton siding? has anyone Pixed them?
avid
Guys, I was looking at the November 2001 issue of Railway Age last night and I noticed in the Transit Update column an uncredited graphic of lower Manhattan's west side subway routes, post 9/11, which I'm certain was the same map as Mr. Adler's on this site. IIRC, it even includes the "In Memoriam" box. I'm thinking it was lifted directly from nycsubway.org. Were you aware of this? I can scan the page at home if you'd like.
I've seen this issue, too. It was lifted from the site. Way to go, Keystone Pete, for exposing the plagerist.
Tunnel Rat
I wasn't, but that doesn't mean Mike wasn't. Have to let him chime in on this.
Keystone Pete,
Dave alerted me after he saw your post. I have not given permission for them to use any of my maps nor they requested one from me at all.
I was planning on going to library to see the map, but if you don't mind scanning that for me and send it to my email:
adler1969@aol.com
Thanks,
Michael Adler
Gee, I don't know. I don't have permission from Railway Age to reproduce pages from their magazine. :O)
(I'll scan it this weekend.)
And in this case, you're safe... you DO have the permission of the legitimate copyright holder, and second, you're not publishing it, just copying (or scanning) one page for your own personal use, so it falls under the "fair use" doctrine. (Note that photographs and artwork adhere to a stricter definition of "fair use" than this, but since Railway Age isn't the legitimate copyright holder of the artwork that's irrelevant. If they did have Mike's permission, however, you couldn't scan it from that source without their permission as well - his permission notwithstanding.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I started to write (in a letter to friends) that a LIRR station downtown as part of WTC transit redevelopment would bring commuter RRs to a district that has never had them. That got me thinking, though.
I know very little about mid-19th Century RRs. What was the lowest (southernmost) point on Manhattan Island that had a passenger RR (*not* a subway) terminal?
Not a terminal where you had to take a ferry to somewhere else to get the train. Not a subway. And preferably not long-distance service (100 mi or more) but serving local stations, either within NYC or at least just outside the city.
I think it's 23rd Street, but I bet someone knows for sure ....
What was the lowest (southernmost) point on Manhattan Island that had a passenger RR (*not* a subway) terminal?
Not a terminal where you had to take a ferry to somewhere else to get the train. Not a subway. And preferably not long-distance service (100 mi or more) but serving local stations, either within NYC or at least just outside the city.
The west side High Line ran as far south as Canal Street, but I'm not certain if it ever had passenger service.
The west side High Line ran as far south as Canal Street, but I'm not certain if it ever had passenger service.
Actually, IIRC, it ran even further down, to a freight terminal on what is now the WTC site. The Friend of the High Line site refers to a southernmost portion between Spring and Clarkson Streets, but I *think* my WTC book showed the site of a terminal that was demolished in the Fifties as the NW corner of the WTC site.
But it was always clearly a freight line. Possibly that alignment had passenger service in the 19th century? I think the answer to my question is going to be from the mid-1850s.
Indeed, Official Guides from the 1860's show service in upper Manhattan.
Indeed, Official Guides from the 1860's show service in upper Manhattan.
Although that was running down the alignment before the 1920s and 1930s West Side Improvement that put the RR under Riverside Park and built the High Line.
What were the stops?
Oh, almost forgot. Trains Magazine will feature the NYC High Line in their March issue (goes on sale around the 1st of Feb 2002.
Stops along the WestSide line included:
INWOOD at Dyckman St
WASHINGTON HEIGHTS at GW Bridge.
FORT WASHINGTON at W161 St
W152 St
MANHATTANVILLE at W130 St
Probably a few more stops south of there.
Probably one at 34 St to connect with Penn Station.
I think there was one in the upper 20's.
Going south I think it might have been more freight than passenger service.
If I'm wrong about any of it, I'm sure I'll be corrected!
Stops along the WestSide line included ... Going south I think it might have been more freight than passenger service.
What years was passenger service available? Anyone got a complete list?
BTW, when plans for the West Side Yards were being critiqued in the early Nineties, the Manhattan Borough President's office recommended a 72nd Street stop to relieve the load on the 72nd Street 1/2/3 station. Neither Amtrak nor Trump had the slightest interest, of course, and the idea died.
The line did NOT run to the World Trade Center. The St. John's Park Freight Terminal was constructed on the former site of St. John's Park between Beach, Laight, Varick and Hudson Streets. After the surface line which traveled along Hudson, Canal, West, 10th, 11th and then the river was replaced by the High Line, the new terminal would bear the same name and would be located (and still stands) between Clarkson, Spring, Washington and West Streets. The original site was used for the Holland Tunnel exit.
The St. John's Park was named after the St. John's Church, part of the Trinity's parish. The church was demolished in 1917 when Varick Street was widened for the West Side IRT. It is depicted in the wall mosaics of the Canal Street station on the 1/2.
Ah, OK, thanks. But it did run technically S of Canal, eh?
I would think north of Canal Street.
Yes, former St. John's Park, now the Holland Tunnel auto merry-go-round, is south of Canal.
The history of that line is confusing. There was a RR at one time which could have been like NYCRR that went to Grand Central. But that was abondoned. NY City tried to bring it back by using the High Line. But that never really took hold.
The last time I walked around down there, it seemed that the ROW was gradually being scaled back. I think now it only goes as far as W14 St. And I'm not too sure if even that remains.
The last time I walked around down there, it seemed that the ROW was gradually being scaled back. I think now it only goes as far as W14 St. And I'm not too sure if even that remains.
The High Line has been much covered on SubTalk in the past. See the Friends of the High Line website for history and current situation.
Well the Long Island Railroad ran passneger service via the Willie B to the Chambers Street station in the late `teens. That's not a dedicated railroad-only line, of course, but it did involve railcars belonging to a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Well the Long Island Railroad ran passneger service via the Willie B to the Chambers Street station in the late `teens. That's not a dedicated railroad-only line, of course, but it did involve railcars belonging to a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Well, I'd have to say THAT counts. The LIRR is definitely a commuter RR!
Out of curiosity, steam or third-rail? I'd have to think third-rail (too early for diesel) but wondering if LIRR shoes work on BMT third rails?
Where was the service from? (Jamaica shuttle?) How many trains? How long did it last? AND ... why'd they STOP?
Anywhere I can go for more info?
I think the service left the LIRR on the Atlantic Branch, and joined the Jamaica line around Chestnut Street (Near Crescent Station) there is still evidence on the el structur there. The LIRR then rode on the Broadway el to terminate at Chambers.
The operation, when it went into Manhattan, was electric. It was part of the interline agreement between the LIRR and the BRT for joint operation of service, first from Broadway Ferry on the Brooklyn side, later over the WB to Delancey Street (Essex Street toda) on May 30, 1909. Service was extended to Chambers Street on August 4, 1913. Business fell off and both companies used WWI as an excuse to end service on September 3, 1917.
Didn't the ICC (or whatever it's predecessor was) order the BMT-LIRR services discontinued?
No. The PSC though was not very happy about wood BU cars being
operated through the Centre St subway!
Brings up a tangent question: At what point did the BRT begin
installing trip arms? Certainly in the dual contracts they
were being used, but did Centre St open with them installed?
What about the elevated lines?
I never heard this. I don't know that there was any agency that ruled on the provision or discontinuance of passenger services as happened after WWII.
Of course, after this time, the United States Railroad Administration (USRA) was formed that actually operated railroads and some other carriers seized by the government for wartime necessity. The USRA was established December 26, 1917, and railroads and other seized carriers were returned to private control on March 1, 1920.
But at any rate, the USRA was established after the end of the Rockaway joint services.
Paul, if I recall correctly didn't the ICC make a ruling in the early part of the 20th Century that rapid transit and common carriers were not allowed to share same trackage??? That would certainly have caused an end to BMT/LIRR service.
I could be wrong, but thought I heard at least SOMETHING along those lines...
BMTman
I doubt that, Doug, because their were too many examples of shared trackage that lasted way past WWII: SIRT and freight; H&M-PRR shared trackage; several interurbans and Chicago el; BRT/BMT and its freight services.
Not to mention freight operations that used trolley trackage.
Right. Geez, how can I forget SBK!
Actually, Bob Anderson should get into this mix -- he might be able to shed some more light on this topic.
Hello -- Bob, are you out there????
BMTman
I'm here Doug, but I don't know the answer, either.
The operation, when it went into Manhattan, was electric. It was part of the interline agreement between the LIRR and the BRT for joint operation of service, first from Broadway Ferry on the Brooklyn side, later over the WB to Delancey Street (Essex Street toda) on May 30, 1909. Service was extended to Chambers Street on August 4, 1913. Business fell off and both companies used WWI as an excuse to end service on September 3, 1917.
I suppose the service would have been doomed when the LIRR line on Atlantic was put underground in 1940 or so. It would have been very costly to have built a new connection.
If the service had been a going concern, I'm sure they would have made a provision to connect up to it, just as they did at Woodhaven for Rockaway trains.
Considering the talk going around about an LIRR connection to downtown as part of the WTC reconstruction (see the last parapgraph of Thursday's story in the Post for the latest mention), it's ironic that the railroad coludn't make a go of it 85 years ago. Of course, given the future FRA rules, some other way of connecting it to lower Manhattan would have had to have been thought up, since the shairing of the Broadway el would have been a no-no.
[Out of curiosity, steam or third-rail?]
It was third rail. The trains were MP41's which were a combination railroad car/rapid transit car. They looked something like the Low-V.
[Where was the service from? (Jamaica shuttle?) How many trains? How long did it last? ]They usually went to the Rockaways on either the old Rockaway LIRR Branch which is now the IND subway or the present day Far Rockaway LIRR Branch through the 5 Towns. It lasted from around the turn of the century through the late teens around the end of WW1.
[Anywhere I can go for more info?
The book "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George tells all about the Chestnut Street Connection. I am not at home now, otherwise I would quote from the book or scan the pages.
Although you didn't ask, just in case you're interested the MP41's lasted till the 50's and were last used on the 'ol Central Branch Shuttle between Country Life Press and Clinton Rd. (the station which is now a firehouse.)
Do you count the elevated railroads in your question? If so, the Third Ave elevated railroad went to Whitehall Ferry terminal at the southern tip of Manhattan Island, back in the 1880's & 1890's. Also, there was an elevated cable car system from Battery Place to Cortlandt Street from 1868 to the late 1870's.
Hope this helps answer your question.
Do you count the elevated railroads in your question?
Good info, thanks. I guess the answer is another question, Do you consider an elevated RR a "commuter train"?
Back then, most people commuted from within NYC either by walking or the El. But Riverdale is said to have been the first commuter suburb, from about the 1860s, because the Hudson RR went there, enabling commuting from what were formerly rural areas.
So I guess I'm looking for "real" trains (steam, back then), not El trains ....
After reading this month's NY Division Bulletin, I would say Park Row. Horses would tow the steam RR passenger car (New York and Hudson) from the old Grand Central on the street to Park Row in front of City Hall.
(College Pl is the old name for West Broadway)
I'm going by memory of an article I read some time ago, but I believe the answer may be almost to South Ferry.
I believe that the West Side line (in early days when it was on the surface) had arrangements to carry their cars down near the Battery. I don't recall whether this arragement was by steam power or not.
A more firm, but still speculative answer is Beach Street (I think it is called Ericson Place right there). The automobile playground south of Canal where cars exit from the Holland Tunnel, bounded by Hudson Street on the west and Varick on the east was a major rail terminal, as still attested to by the warehouses on the south side, and, before that, a rather nice City park.
I believe that this terminal hosted passenger service AFTER rail cars could no longer go south of that point.
I am certain on none of this however (in regard to passenger operations, that is--the terminal at Beach Street did exist) but perhaps it will point others to better information.
Apparantly the soundtrack is available on vinyl - click here.
-Robert King
Photo courtesy of www.nycsubway.org
The R-36WF
Thank you everyone for voting in the first official on-line SubTalk poll.
The end results of the vote on favorite in-service IRT car are:
1.) R26 - 6%
2.) R28 - 2%
3.) R29 - 7%
4.) R33 - 7%
5.) R36 Mainline - 2%
6.) R36 World's Fair - 34%
7.) R62 - 8%
8.) R62A - 9%
9.) R142 - 5%
10.) R142A - 20%
You can also combine results for similar contracts:
1.) R26 - 6%
2.) R28 - 2%
3.) R29 - 7%
4.) R33 - 7%
5.) R36 World's Fair - 36%
6.) R62 - 17%
7.) R142 - 25%
Or go even further by generation:
1.) Redbirds 58%
2.) R62 - 17%
3.) R142 - 25%
So in sum, one-quarter of SubTalkers who participated named the r142 as their favorite, in-service IRT car, while almost 3 out of 5 felt a Redbird was their favorite.
Coming soon will be a poll on in-service IND/BMT cars.
MATT-2AV
I'm shocked the hated R142 did so well, as well as why the R142A got more attention than the R142. I can't tell the difference between them.
Differences exist, they are just hard to find.
Given what I've read here, I'm quite surprised. I thought we Redbird fans were vastly outnumbered, when apparently the R-36WF alone is more popular (among those who voted) than either of the later generations.
I really wish I could have voted for the R-142 or R-142A, since they are rapidly taking over, but they're chock full of design flaws to my mind. Not being a Flushingite, I voted for the venerable R-33.
Hi everybody!
First let me congratulate the master(s) of this site, I'm glad I found it!
I am a writer and just finished a novel that is set in the New York underground. Since the work is (a) fiction and (b) set in the future, I have (so far) not stuck to the facts. Now that the book is done I am in the editing process and thought that I'd try to get a feel for some subway lingo & the general atmosphere.
I probably won't understand half of the posts on this board (sounds like everybody's an expert on this stuff), but it doesn't hurt to try, right?
Looking forward to getting lost in the word salad of subtalk,
-Niki da Silva
Looking forward to getting lost in the word salad of subtalk
Word salad, what a great image!
Frankly, if you post a question or two -- whether detailed or conceptual -- I bet you'll get a ton'o'feedback. Good luck.
Greenhorn, I haven't heard that expression in a LONG time, but welcome in any event.
Now, if you said just off the boat.....
I found this on the MTA website. I was curious as to why they would choose Marcy Ave to do all this work. Is it that busy of a station to warrant all this? What do they do to decide what stations get this sort of upgrade and rehabilitation. It just seems that there are many busier stations that would require this sort of work before Marcy.
Here it is: I pasted it from the MTA site:
CONSTRUCT ADA ACCESSIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
MARCY AVENUE STATION
$1M - $5M
This project is to make the Marcy Avenue station accessible under the requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act legislation This project is to rehabilitate the Marcy Avenue Station on the Jamaica Line in Queens. The scope of work for the project includes the following tasks.
-Repair structural deficiencies throughout the station
Provide architectural treatments to the customer areas in the station
-Upgrade communications and lighting systems, as required
-Provide new, fully equipped agent booths and fare arrays, as needed
-Install signage and other passenger amenities
-Rehabilitate station operating facilities, as required
-Remove visual clutter and install artwork
-Perform all work that is necessary to comply with the approved NYC --Transit policy and operating requirements
(ADA). The scope of work includes the following tasks.
-Furnish and install elevators which will meet the ADA standards
-Install platform edge warning strips and reduce platform gaps and train thresholds
-Install ADA required signage (including Braille) with related lighting
-Install an automated vending machines for the visually and hearing impaired
-Modify control area access gates and agent windows to a height of 36 inches
-Install ADA compliant handrails on ramps, where required
Provide text and volume adjustable telephones
-Duration of Contract 36 Months Monthly list
The station needs renovation and the scope of the work is probably so great that it requires having ADA enhancements installed at the same time.
Oh, so if the work becomes extensive to a certain point, then the ADA requirements become necessary. That makes more sense. I couldn't understand why they would choose Marcy to become ADA compliant.
Why not? Marcy Avenue is a major transfer point at a busy hub. You have the Williamsburg Bridge, at least 10 bus lines, and a busy shopping district.
It would not call it a busy shopping district. About the only thing there is the grand old bank building plus Peter Lugar's, both somewhat down the street. I would have let the station moulder a few more years in favor of another project:
Replace Hewes and Lorimer with a single entirely new, wholly ADA compliant station with a transfer to the Broadway-station G, with elevators and escalators to get to to all involved platforms. Marcy is demoted to a local stop during rush hour. This would be a very serious enhancement, and would be partial recompense to the long-suffering G-riders for their loss of rush-hour access to Queens Plaza.
Wouldn't Peter Lugar's alone be enough for a station upgrade? Steakhouses get no respect anymore! :0)
Seriously, though, a heavy rail-bus transfer point would justify a rehab.
Or, it might be political: an important councilmember or assemblyman or senator needed something to deliver to constituents.
To get to Peter Lugar's, you hafta walk down Broadway, which was particularly desolate the last time I was there (the only active storefront, in fact). To eat there, you have to have limo service to get there and go home. South of Broadway is heavily Hasidic (Satmar, I think, the Lee Ave crowd) and is basically safe, but the whole neighborhood is still one vast slum.
To get to Peter Lugar's, you hafta walk down Broadway, which was particularly desolate the last time I was there (the only active storefront, in fact). To eat there, you have to have limo service to get there and go home. South of Broadway is heavily Hasidic (Satmar, I think, the Lee Ave crowd) and is basically safe, but the whole neighborhood is still one vast slum.
You're making the 'hood sound like Sodom and Gomorrah. It's not that bad, not anymore.
A vast slum? When was the last time you walked along Broadway? I see many stores, including national chains and mom-and-pop operations thriving.
Of course, that bus terminal and the proximity to the Williamsburg Bridge and the shopping district are again why Marcy is getting the re-hab.
Your idea of a Broadawy-Union Avenue connection (BMT-IND) is a good one, but the costs involved would be greater than the Marcy project. Maybe the TA can start a MetroCard transfer at that location, a la the 7/G transfer or the F/4,5,6.
A vast slum? When was the last time you walked along Broadway?
About ten or more years. I even asked for the bus ticket at the Marcy booth (that ticket seemed to be well-used; I musta been the only one in days to ask for it, since it ran on such lengthy headways; I was the only one on that bus, and the driver was suprised to see me). Yes, I was railfanning, as well as exploring a place to yuppie-scummify. Do you know about the Seneca Club?
As I remember it, Broadway after Marcy was a long 19th century street frozen in time, right down to the granite cobblestones. Everything was bricked/concrete-blocked up, except for Peter Lugar's (which was also glassless at the front) and a stray Satmar hat shop. The landmark, of course, is the Williamsburgh Savings Bank building (the original, and not the 'new' one at Hanson Place). The whole place was dismal slum.
I gather that the neighborhood has improved. Are you saying I can buy designer furniture from a shopfront on Broadway near P.Lugar's now?
[Or, it might be political: an important councilmember or assemblyman or senator needed something to deliver to constituents.]
Look who lives in the area. Politicians are scared of Hassidics and always bow down to them for their votes!!!
Not bow down: daven.
I always wondered why they never tried to make a connection from the G Broadway station and either Hewes or Lorimer (I'm not sure which is closer), I know you can see the entrance to the G from the el between the stations. It seems like a usefull project, and the land values had to be fairly cheap right there. Alot of the buildings are either razed or burnt, so land aquisition couldn't have been too high. The neighborhood has been a disaster for quite some time, although it is slowly improving with rehabs and new construction. It just seems like the Broadway el should be connected to the G. Was there ever any talk of it?
Broadway-G to/from the Hewes or Lorimar Broadway-el is a serious candidate for a 'walking transfer'. It's easy enough to do. Why have they not done it?
The descriptions elsewhere on this site accurately describe the Broadway, Flushing and Myrtle G-stations as places which are best avoided. Nothing a couple of cops wouldn't fix.
Yeah it's similar to Atlantic on the L line. I used to use the ENY LIRR station for a while, and would have to walk in the evening from ENY station to Atlantic Ave station. It always struck me funny that a "police escort" was usually there. It always, however, made me glad the police car was parked between the LIRR station and the Atlantic L station.
The descriptions on this site are not all very recent, some go back a few years. I traverse the area frequently, and can assure you it's a safe area. The Hasidim, in connection with the Shorim patrols and the Police Station close by all total a safe experience. This isn't Broadway in 1983 when you needed bulletproof underwear just to get the paper.
I always wondered why they never tried to make a connection from the G Broadway station and either Hewes or Lorimer (I'm not sure which is closer), I know you can see the entrance to the G from the el between the stations. It seems like a usefull project, and the land values had to be fairly cheap right there. Alot of the buildings are either razed or burnt, so land aquisition couldn't have been too high. The neighborhood has been a disaster for quite some time, although it is slowly improving with rehabs and new construction. It just seems like the Broadway el should be connected to the G. Was there ever any talk of it?
There wasn't as urgent a need for the transfer until the recent cutback of the G's northern terminus.
It would not call it a busy shopping district. About the only thing there is the grand old bank building plus Peter Lugar's, both somewhat down the street.
It looked like a pretty busy area whenever I've seen it. Just the bus transfer point (Washington Plaza, IIRC) is enough to guarantee reasonably high ridership at Marcy.
Incorrect. All trains stop at Marcy Avenue at all times.
Actually I think Marcy as a local was part of HIS plan, he didn't mean it as current service.
If "major" work is done to any "public accomodation" then ADA compliance is needed. No ADA compliance is needed if no "major" work is done.
This leads to the result that owners (both public and private) will not do renovations because if they did the ADA costs will make it impracticable.
Question, however. I read that there was a waiver for the work on the Union Square Station because there was no room to put elevators on the IRT platforms. Is impossiblity the only exeception??
Question, however. I read that there was a waiver for the work on the Union Square Station because there was no room to put elevators on the IRT platforms. Is impossiblity the only exeception??
Ummmm, I'm not sure this is true. I know there are BMT elevators. I know there's a ground-level to mezzanine elevator near the south end of the IRT tracks. Don't know about the L line, however ... but I *think* there are IRT elevators.
HUH.
Now I'll have to check ....
It's true. There was no practical way to get elevators (or ramps either, I'd guess) down to the platforms on the Lex side, so it wasn't done.
David
Seem more or less plausible. Note that there ARE elevators from street to mezzanine level and from mezzanine level to the L and N/R/Q/W platforms.
It must be something less than total impossibility that allows a waiver. There would be room to put in elevators to the IRT, except it would probably have a serious adverse effect on crowding (e.g., removing a stairway to install an elevator would make the remaining stairways unacceptably crowded).
That's a load of nonsense. If major renovations are needed anyway, ADA additions will not add very much, proportionately. Designing ADA compliance into the blueprint before you start digging cuts the cost of ADA down significantly.
If I come on a bit strong about that, it's because we in the medical profession constantly have to debunk myths about what ADA costs society...
This project is to rehabilitate the Marcy Avenue Station on the Jamaica Line in Queens.
Good going, MTA. You folks are from New York, aren't you? Marcy Avenue is in Brooklyn.
(Unless this area was secretly ceded to Queens. This is where much of Comming To America was filmed, supposedly in Queens.)
:-) Andrew
I didn't know that! I always wondered where. What streets were "Coming to America" filmed on by Marcy? I know the "McDowell's" was the Wendy's on Queens Blvd, by St John's Hospital
It was the street where the Eddie Murphy and Arsenio Hall characters were staying. I forget what the exact street was, but a telltale sign was the black streetsigns with white type. In Queens they had white streetsigns with blue type. (Though by the 1980's they were already replacing many of the color-coded street signs with the standard white-on-green we know today.)
There is another instance in this movie as Brooklyn posing as Queens. A subway station signed as "Van Wyck Blvd" was actually Hoyt-Shcermerhorn.
Many scenes were indeed shot in Queens, such as those at the Wendy's posing as "McDowells" on Queens Blvd.
:-) Andrew
It was the street where the Eddie Murphy and Arsenio Hall characters were staying. I forget what the exact street was, but a telltale sign was the black streetsigns with white type. In Queens they had white streetsigns with blue type.
Hmmmmm ... sounds like something for nitpickers.com
Although it could have been worse - at least Vancouver wasn't disguised as Queens.
...or Hong Kong for Da Bronx (as in Jackie Chan's 'Rumble in the Bronx').
;-D
Chan=Wimp, You know da Bronx boy ... who had the big brass clangers at Bway Jct? Heh.
Kev, you be Da Man! ;-D
It wasn't puffy's FOAM! Really! Heh. I sat and stared at a pathetic bunch'o'faces though who spotted da gloves and I waited for someone to leap on down and reach for da crime scene ... nada ... if da glove don't fit, then it must be two lefties. :)
Got MY buns burnt ... and at no time did I enter upon, nor cross da trax ... HeyPaul was too busy pushing dem over da edge. Heh. Ghods, do I love TEAMWORK when I can spot same.
Or Toronto's subway system for New York's.
I remember those scenes, and they looked like a rough area, even without the Hollywood effect of making it look worse. I loved the scene where the King and all his people arrive and get out in that disaster of an neighborhood and start throwing rose petals around. Real funny!
that was Williamsburg,Brooklyn.like S4 street or 5.it was the block up from Marcy train station.......
There is another instance in this movie as Brooklyn posing as Queens. A subway station signed as "Van Wyck Blvd" was actually Hoyt-Shcermerhorn.
Yeah and the grafittied train! Wow I forgot how bad they looked. The movie was filmed though when the trains still looked like that.
beautiful. If one looks closely, one could spot "DAZE" a very visible character on the Queens Blvd trains (from Jamaica yard, his second home)
I'll bet the designers of the IND never thought Hoyt-Schermerhorn would wind up as a popular movie set.
It was filmed in South Williamsburg, because i recall seeing a Hooper St. Black Streetsigh and the J train. that area is about a block south of the J and right around the Willy B.
There is another instance in this movie as Brooklyn posing as Queens. A subway station signed as "Van Wyck Blvd" was actually Hoyt-Shcermerhorn.
At least Hollywood tried to make it as true as possible. I believe the McDowells "lived" in Jamaica Estates, so when they got on the subway, they would have gotten on at the end of the Queens Blvd line, and then end up at "Van Wyck Blvd", or actually it may have said "Sutphin" I don't know it was a while since I'd seen that movie.
Ok, here it goes (try not to cringe too much, I promise I'm a fast learner)!
1. Are the tracks the cars run on usually referred to as "rails" or "tracks"? Are these terms interchangable?
2. Is it dangerous to touch the third rail, or is it somehow insulated as a safety precaution?
I promise my questions will get better as I fight my way through the information on this page, so please bear with me.
Thanks a lot,
-Niki
Don't be embarassed. Noone's born knowing these things.
One track=two rails (or three, if you count the "third rail".)
Usually the top of the third rail has a plank or something you could step on (not that I'd recommend it), but the rail itself should never be touched.
:-) Andrew
1. The terms are interchangeable*, although most of the time they are called tracks
2. YES!!! it is very dangerous, though it is touchable if you are not touching anything else.
* Rails with ties are tracks
2. YES!!! it is very dangerous, though it is touchable if you are not touching anything else.
And that includes your feet touching the ground!
I can answer the second question for you, in part.
Touching an energized third rail will not hurt you if you are not grounded, or touching something else that is.
Electricity can hurt you by:
1) Your body acts as a resistor and the heat generated burns human tissue. A person with an electrical burn can be critically or mortally injured and not even show it externally, if the path of the electricity was mostly through internal organs.
2) The electrical current can stop your heartbeat.
DON'T DO IT. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.
Others more familiar with electricity and physics should take over now.
Guys, thank you so much!
I can't wait to dream up my next set of qu's.
And, don't worry, I won't touch the third rail ;-)
Niki, May I suggest that you poke around this site, e.g. FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions): Glossary; Abandoned stations; Accidents; Books; City Hall Station; History of the 3 divisions (IRT,BMT,IND); Museums cars (where are the old cars now); Radio Codes; "R" number what it means; Color codes (routes/lines); tunnels & bridges; etc.; etc.
You'll also find a station by station guide.
It's a great place to learn all about mass transit ... enjoy.
Mr rt__:^)
Niki, May I suggest that you poke around this site, e.g. FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions): Glossary; Abandoned stations; Accidents; Books; City Hall Station; History of the 3 divisions (IRT,BMT,IND); Museums cars (where are the old cars now); Radio Codes; "R" number what it means; Color codes (routes/lines); tunnels & bridges; etc.; etc.
At the risk of giving my book a blatant plug, you might want to grab a copy of it (and several others) that get into not only the history of the system, but its operational details. I heartily recommend Brian Cudahy's "Under the Sidewalks of New York" and Stan Fischler's "Subway" in addition to my own < grin >. Of course, as Thurston suggested, get to know this site as well as Joe Korman's. All are wonderful resources.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
'Cheers.' Is that something Canuck?? Oh yeah, look up my call and cross ref the name in a megasearch. So figgah out was' on my helmet???? "Hurricane is OnTheJuice." Next set of dumb questions.
'Cheers.' Is that something Canuck??
Nope, I think it was a fictitious bar in Boston (based on a real bar in Boston Called the Bull and Finch )< grin >. It's also a greeting all my Irish and British friends used when I was a wee lad.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
And, don't worry, I won't touch the third rail ;-)
...and Don't Whizz on the Electric Fence!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
600 volts is pretty insidious. You may think you're well grounded and not be well grounded enough. I once accidentally touched a 220 volt exposed elevator switch with 1 little finger while wearing dry shoes on a dry carpet, and I got the shock of my life.
The warning signs for voltage are misleading. Voltage won't kill you. You can touch 100000V and nothing will happen. What kills you is the amperage. As little as .1A will shock the shit of of you, if not kill you. I don't know what the amps are for a third rail, but it's probably over 1 amp, which is plenty.
Good point.
Keep in mind that a 9-volt battery could kill you if the electrical path went right to your heart's natural pacemaker cells. Very unlikely in terms of event probability, but possible.
How's 10,000 amps.
Human bodies do not have a low enough series resistance to conduct 1000 amps of AC or DC current. It only takes a few milliamperes to stop your heart. Most EHV accidents occur in power transmission line repair...and most victims survive...with a lesson. 600 VDC is another matter...you get 'locked on' and then burn. CI Peter, bugmaster
With AC current you will be "locked on" because your muscles contracts, causing your limbs to grab hold of the source of current. With DC current you proberly be thrown away from the source with a flash of light and a loudly bang
/B
Wrong...it is the opposite. DC locks the muscles in one direction...AC fibrulates them. The DC bang comes about after your head explodes. Then the CTAs clean up the burnt mush. CI Peter, master of the 'Big Bug.' (600 VDC 1200 Amp cable for third rail propulsion motor power.) OnTheJuice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AC causes the muscles to cramp actually. And I’ve seen some victims of the current in the third rail, both survivors and decided, in my work as alternating TSS and Control Center staff here in sweden. Did you know that we build our subway with the NYC-subway as a model.
You can actually take a Swedish train and run it on NYC tracks. The breaking/charging handle and the “reverser” is for one example identical. The couplings, current in the third rail and so on ...
/B
Some people never learn how to do things right cause they pick bad examples BUT maybe we need Swedish trainsets on NYC rails. I can bet my backpocket Krona you made yourself a bootleg speed brake handle and a cut reverser key. SAAB/Skandia carbodies??? Russkies would have a hard time understanding my Swedish 'On the Juice' and 'In the Hole.' Then, I can't understand them most of the time and I usually get blasted. CI Peter
Most were manufactured by ASEA and Hägglunds. The newest type from Adtranz and Bombardier.
/B
Adtranz and Bombardier. Good luck LOL R142 tech. I'd take a shot at ASEA or Hagglunds (no umlaut on my keyboard.) Time to go to sleep....my Bombas will be looking for me in the morn. CI Peter
Bombas still bombing.....caught a barge this afternoon on the Hudson River taking away the Redbird Carbodies. Thanks to Engine Brake and his crew....Special Graces. CI Peter
3rd rails are protected by circuit breakers rated in the hundred kilo-ampere spectrum. One 10-car train, on starting, can easily draw over 5,000 amps.
IF I could only present the demonstration from Dayton Power and Light (Ohio) would SubTalkers truly realise the destructive power of electrical contact. And I had to dress up like Doctor Frankenstein in rubber gloves, apron, helmet and face shield...to check low voltage batteries. CI Peter
How much does it draw accelerating to speed?
TD is snickering in his Lionel bunker so I'll give a left field Division A answer. Redbirds in a ten car set have fourty DC motors so a low DC peak draw of 1000 amps per car times ten times 600 Volts DC equals at leat SIX MILLION WATTS. Car barns have no third rail...to get the trainset out, at least the second and third cars have to be powered by a heavy cable we refer to as the 'big bug' applied to the third rail shoes. Each bug carries 600 volts DC fused at 1200 amps. 600 x 1200 + 600 x 1200 equals 1.56 Million Watts. I won't quibble about a few hundred thousand watts of power. Any error in applying power is lethal...the public only knows what the Police and Fire departments risk everyday. There are the boldest, the bravest, the strongest: a SubTalker identified us as THE SAFEST. TA work is EXCELLENT work...it is also very, very dangerous. CI Peter, Master of the Big Bug.
Actually, Peter, the four (4) traction motors on each car are connected in series on starting so the 450-500 amperes you see on the ammeter is for the car sans the HVAC, air compressor, lights Etc. 5,000 to 6,000 amps is as impressive as it gets.
Many thanks to Train Dude and CI Peter.
TA work is excellent work - the best.
As the train accelerates, the current actually drops off. In full multiple, the traction current may be as little as 200 Amps per car.
Thank you.
You've got it backwards! You must be ungrounded if you don't want to be shocked. If you received an electrical shock you were grounded because the electricity had to flow through you to a grounded object. The reverse is true: if you aren't grounded, the electricity can't get anywhere and won't flow through you and you won't be shocked.
-Robert King
Standard safety warning on most power company bucket trucks, "Not grounded, not DEAD" ...
Yo Gupta, Not Grounded NOT DEAD. Don't screw in 50 volt bulbs in your paddle either. CI Peter
Not to worry, Peter ... around here, we series string flashcubes in an orange juice can and then stuff them into the reject load waveguide. Makes for a HELL of a lightshow for the RCA antenna guys. :)
RCA antenna guys...jeez. I'm the oldest RCA graduate in the yard. CI Peter
Don't screw in 50 volt bulbs in your paddle either.
I prefer hot tubs, personally....
< ducking >
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
You're aboslutely right. What I meant to say is that you may think you're really well insulated and it turns out you aren't as well insulated as you thought.
Interesting story though. I had a somewhat similar encounter with 120 volts. I was playing a record on a Lenco turntable and I could hear an annoying 60 Hz hum in the speakers hinting that some line supply was going somewhere it shouldn't be so I switched off the turntable and the stereo. Then I used the lever to raise the arm from the record on the turntable and I picked up the arm to put it back on its stand and I received a huge shock that felt like my right arm was being torn off. The only other thing I was touching beside the turntable arm was the hardwood floor I was standing on. I hate to think of what could have happened if I was touching something else like the hot water radiator at the time.
-Robert King
A teenaged girl just died about 6 months ago because a frayed extension cord was up against a metal bedframe, and she managed to have one hand on the bed frame and one hand on a radiator, and she was damp from just having taken a shower.
I believe it was in the Daily News.
Nobody deserves that.
:0(
Oh no, that's terrible. It's really saddening to hear about people being hurt or killed in such unfortunate accidents.
-Robert King
Wow...I officially declare myself now an expert on the third rail ;-0
Seriously, guys, thanks so much for all the input!
I have a question for the board, and I think Nikitalk was trying to ask this, is the voltage for the third rail lowered when there's no train around as a safety precaution. My guess is no, but just confirm that?
No, the voltage is not lowered.
Peace,
ANDEE
Doe that waste alot of power?
The power is always on. It's just like household voltage, it is 120 either you use it or not. Those little electrons are always looking for a place to flow to.
Not really. There's probably some electrical leakage from the third rail to ground that could be prevented by turning off the power when there aren't any trains running but that's about it. Keeping the third rail live doesn't consume much power itself, power's only consumed when something is connected to it, drawing current from it.
-Robert King
Nope ... "Reddy Kilowatt" is ALWAYS ready to serve ... be it a ten car consist, or a wayward willie ... oh wait, wrong board. :)
My faith restricts an answer. Ask about goat farming. CI Peter
If you want ot see what happens when you touch the third rail - see the end of "The Taking of Pehlem 1-2-3"
I won't go into details, but it's a LOT more gruesome than a shudder and small wisp of smoke. "Pelham" was fraught with various excessive and minimalist technical "glitches" in what they showed ...
If you want to see what happens when you touch the third rail - see the end of "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"
Awwwwwwwwww ... you RUINED it ! ! ! !
"The Taking Of Pelham 123" significantly understates what would happen if you were to touch the third rail and a running rail.
-Robert King
If it didn't understate it the movie would have required a tougher rating - and the scene could never have been shown on television.
BS movie glop. Just like TA work is EXCELLENT work, a good electrocution requires EXCELLENT conduction. IF you got a decent connection bridging the third rail..you get fried cahonyies. Of course, you die. A really good connection swells your head and you explode. Just ask the first nine 'excutees' of SingSing prison...nobody ever recorded the meter readings of George Westinghouse'. This TA work is no light joke...it is dangerous and requires knowledge and caution...you MUST protect yourself AND your partner. CI Peter
Exactly right.
Prisoners from death row strapped to the electric chair had either salt water or some very efficient conducting goop put on their heads and legs to help the electrocution process.
My Amtrak train was delayed ten minutes in Baltimore because an unfortunate pigeon managed to get one foot on the 11,000 foot catenary and the other on something grounded. We saw a flash of light, heard a bang, and then watched feathers come drifting down from overhead!
Then there was the time I tried to climb over the fence of a dog kennel with a shock wire on top. Guess what, a concrete block does not provide very good insulation!
Do we want to know why you were climbing into a dog kennel?
Does anyone know, or can make an educated guess, about this:
When Archer Av opened, a new way to travel from north to south was created in the eastern part of the subway system.( Recall that the Queens Blvd line actually travels relatively north-westerly toward Manhattan)
How many riders get on the J and travel to Sutphin Blvd. for the specific purpose of continuing travel on the E (or subsequent transfer to other Queens Blvd. service either inbound, or outbound to 179)?
Probably not many, because there are lots of other options. If you don't live really close to the J and are taking a bus to get to it, that same bus (say on Woodhaven Blvd or Lefferts) also goes to Queens Blvd. Also, if you're going to Manhattan, which is where most people are going, you can go inbound on the J and take the A or L to Manhattan.
So unless your origin and destination are close to the J and E, or vice versa, you probably wouldn't do this.
If you're looking for a specific number I can't help you, but I can tell you anecdotally that the number is sizable.
Occasionally, I take the E out to Sutphin to hook up with the LIRR rather than deal with Penn Station. This past Monday, I got off the E at about 7:45 PM. About 30 or so people exited up the stairs to street level. Another 10 to 15 went down the stairs to the J train.
When take the E city-bound in the AM, I don't see as many transfers. In the AM, I think the transfer may actually occur at Jamaica Center, so that those transferring from the eastbound J can get seats on the westbound E.
CG
Aha! The "get on at the first stop so I get a seat" trick!
Aha! The "get on at the first stop so I get a seat" trick!
Yes, but this trick is most perfectly realized when you stand from TS to GC on the 7, then catch a TimesSq bound train, just to get a seat. Then you watch the fallen-faces of those who gallop into the train in hopes of getting a seat, only to see they are all taken by us regulars.
This trick only works sometimes. Sometimes, you have to backtrack to Hunters Point. I remember my own fallen face when no seats were available even at TS flowing GC.
Does this mean that, going east from TS, you do a TS-GCT-TS loop just to get a seat?
Hoo boy!
What final destination are you heading for?
>> Aha! The "get on at the first stop so I get a seat" trick! <<
Or even go a stop in the wrong direction. I once saw a rush-hour E or a J (can't recall which, probably an E) pull into Jamaica Center. Almost all the seats were taken as it pulled in, and most of those folks remained on the train. They were obviously LIRR commuters who had boarded at Sutphin Blvd but wanted seats and knew full well that they'd never get one on a Manhattan-bound train at Sutphin. For that matter, lots of folks in no hurry will choose the train with seats on one track and let a perfectly good E leave Jamaica on the other track, even if it costs them five minutes or so.
To get the railfan window sometimes I do that, I've backtracked on the E from Sutphin to Parsons, and on the 7 from GC to TS several times.
A reasonable approach, since you are after something which is more scarce than a seat.
I've also seen people ride the L from 6th Ave to 8th Ave and reverse just to get a seat.
I once saw someone here on the Metro get on at Friendship Heights, go to Bethesda, and cross the platform and board an inbound train. Others come from stations north of Grosvenor, get off there, and get on the train to Silver Spring, which is far emptier. And obviously, some of the people who get on at Grosvenor only board the Silver Spring trains.
There are also a large number of people who do this on the 2/5 in Brooklyn, getting on sometimes as far as President St and riding back to Flatbush to get a seat.
For years, passengers at Nostrand and Kingston would backtrack to Utica to get a seat on a #4 train. Who could blame them? In the height of the AM rush, the 4 is already packed from Utica.
Well, you didn't limit the question only to those using the J-to-E route for going to work, so I guess that means you can count me in.
I live right near the corner of Jamaica Ave. and Woodhaven Blvd. I don't take the J-to-E route to work because I work downtown, but a friend of mine who lived a block away from me used to take this route to his job in midtown. (In the 50s, I think.)
But I do frequenly use the J-to-E method to go to Forest Hills. The Barnes and Noble on Austin St. stays open until 11pm, so I sometimes go there in the evenings. Also, there are two great late-night pizzerias right there -- Arianna on Austin, and Sorisi on 71st Ave. Both stay open until 3am on weekends. I am up in the overnights on weekends, so I like to take advantage of this very nice closing time.
To digress a little: those 3am closing times were the best I had seen on any pizzeria until I came across a most delightful cultural resourse -- a 24-hour pizzeria! This precious oasis is located in Jackson Heights at Roosevelt Ave. and 82nd St., and it is called the Broadway Bakery. (And you can take the J-to-E route to get there.)
I left a friend's place in Jackson Heights at about 5:30 last Friday night/Saturday morning, and I was delighted to come upon this. Let me tell you, eating just-made pizza at 6am is one of life's great pleasures!
Does the phenomenon of 24-hour pizza exist elsewhere in Queens or Brooklyn? The world would be a more civilized place if more food places of all kinds were open during the "weekend prime time" hours of 2-5am, as most diners are.
(I say "most diners" because there are two places right near the Jamaica Ave./Woodhaven Blvd. intersection that, inexplicably, are not open 24 hours. I personally think that these places, by virtue of this rephrehensible practice, forfeit the right to call themselves "diners".)
Ferdinand Cesarano
Any place that has a real saucy pie around there?
We got a pizza place in Sea Cliff but they close at 8pm and on Sundays and Mondays, and they're not so great (what did ya think, this is boonsville!)
You're counted in!
24-hour pizza places...well, in the Bayside-Oakland Gardens area, I remember pizza joints being open pretty early and pretty late, but not quite 24-hours.
You should realize that I'm a pizza fan from the '60s in the Bronx, where as a boy I was treated to that super-thin pizza smothered in oil and served on wax paper. Paula Pizza, on 161 St, is still there!
I was on a Z train going to Parsons during the PM rush hour once, and I noticed that the "Manhattan Bound" J trains were pretty crowded with passengers transferring off the "E" at Sutphin to go to the outer Jamaica Ave stations on the J/Z (this is what I noticed at stations past Woodhaven on the EL). Those city bound "J"'s looked almost as crowded as the Z that I was on that JUST CAME from the City. I remember thinking that they should let those passengers coming FROM Sutphin ride the "Z" trains also that were going to the East New York yard anyway (those run without passengers after they make their run from Broad to Parsons!! Tony
Thanks for posting that information. Interesting commuting patterns here...
I never understood why they would deadhead the trains going to the yard, like the Z train. If the Z is going to ENY andyway, why not take passengers and end at ENY? the train is going there anyway.
It saves a whole crew. The T/O that takes it in is a switchman not a road T/O and of course there is no C/R.
Plus you can't just dump people at Alabama so you would have to use Chauncy middle. Chauncy middle as a yard move may plug service and the like to keep it free for reroutes.
These seems like midtown or uptown riders taking an express service to an area that could utilize the Essex/6th Ave route for a single SEAT fast ride, instead of multi-standing rides.
The J-E-F zigzag makes the Winfiels spur to Canarsie look good for nort/south Queens/Kings travel. There's a lot of xfer points along the route.
avid
Many people in my school who come from Brooklyn end up having to take the J(Z) to Sutphin, the E two stops to Union Turnpike, and then reverse and go back to Van Wyck Blvd. Nuts.
It is pretty convoluted, isn't it? Of course, you couldn't do it at all before..
Couldn't one just take the Q44 bus from Sutphin Blvd? Much simpler.
:-) Andrew
Exactly, they let these Malloy boys get girls in the school and they get dumb.
I have to take an even bigger zig-zag route to Shea Stadium (J, E, 7). But the system should be configured for daily Manhattan/outer boro commutes, as this is the primary reason for a subway system to begin with.
January 26,2002, through October 27, 2002, "On Track: Transit and the American City" Exhibition at the National Building Museum; this exhibit, sponsored by Metro, the museum, and other supporters, features an interactive display about transportation in the United States from the early days of transportation until now. The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority is prominently featured in the exhibition as well as other transit agencies from around the country. The exhibit showcases the ways in which public transportation has shaped the geographical and social landscape of this country.
Funny how it ends on the IRT's 98th anniversary, which I am sure is purely coincidential. -Nick
We all know great Car Inspectors 'eat their Wheaties' thankyouverrrymuch. Hope they put something on the internet...nothing like getting stuck on a train to see a train exibit. CI Peter
saw that today on the 2 coupled to a 66??-66??
These are the latest cars, 6800's are somewhere on the property as well.
i think 6800series are testing
You mean 6791-95/6601-05 together? They been coupled together since Tuesday & they could be break up by this weekend with diffrent trains.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
How exciting that they could break up!!!! Do they have their respective blue strips under their numbers??? The greatest love beyond between R142 trainsets is the love of the pigeons who make them home. CI Peter
#6791-#6795/#6601-#6605 doesn't have blue strips under the numbers.
Peace
David J.
i saw it agin this moring.also saw a 6786-6790paired with a 65??-65??
That means they're TBU A+. CI Peter
Where can I download these files? The MSN communities site no longer has them for download (what a shame).
If you need the ones from the MSN site, you can email me for they are no longer there... (or as you guys say)
i dunno if TA wants to make the E to 179 permanent. But i did see signs hanging up all over. not to mention i have ridden a E to 179, not to mention, on the map it says that some Es go to 179. Anyways if they do make it permanent the least they can do is make it exp. and make it easier to tell which is going where. like E diamond to 179 E circle to jamaica center. I am not sure, but i did see the signal at parsons and hillside middle track say Green over green. Does this mean they began running express?
The E trains to/from 179th Street are on the schedule, making them as "permanent" as anything is in New York's subway system.
David
Doea this mean that service to Jamaica Center is reduced? Or did they add extra E trains to serve 179?
Just a few extras operating in the rush hour. I am sure that if they made the E as permanent at 179 like they did before the Archer Ave. line opening in 1989, they would put another line there. May be add the Q by operating via the 63rd St. line from 57/7. I'm sure you won't see this happening for a while, but you never know. R68's permanent through Queens into Archer, hey that could happen too.
If it ever does happen, it probably won't be at least until the Manhattan Bridge is fully open again.
Jamaica Center and Sutphin Blvd. are far too busy for the TA to even consider reducing E service. Not in the range of realistic possibilities.
Perhaps increasing J/Z service to 16 TPH, like it was in the mid 1990's, would ease the E load somewhat.
That is true IF (a mighty big IF) people can be convinced to take the J/Z instead of the E. I'm very much in favor of a marketing campaign to try to accomplish that goal.
David
>> That is true IF (a mighty big IF) people can be convinced to take the J/Z instead of the E. I'm very much in favor of a marketing campaign to try to accomplish that goal. <<
It will take more than a marketing campaign. Experienced riders know that the J and Z are the most pokey slow trains imaginable. Maybe if they were free-- or maybe if they were put underground and straightened...
And how busy, precisely, would that be?
If the numbers are comparable to those on the (better-served) 179th Street branch, as posted here, service is a lot better per capita than on some other lines on which the TA has expressed no interest (to my knowledge) in improving service.
I don't have figures handy, but you can get them from the TA. I recall the TA working to expand the bus bay area at Jamaica Center recently. That place, from first hand experience, is a zoo in the morning, with buses from everywhere pulling up and pouring people directly into the subway like a dumptruck raising its bed. I've been on more than one RTS which had standing room only (and not much of that) and emptied into the station. The Nassau buses come in with pretty full loads in the morning, too.
Not that it really lets up during the day that much.
I don't deny that the two station are very busy -- I'm just challenging your assertion that they're so busy that the TA couldn't even consider reducing service.
Right now, the stations see about 24 tph in Manhattan-bound subway service (12 tph on each of the E and J/Z) and about 15 tph on the LIRR. The subway service is split between 600-foot trains and 480-foot trains, all to B Division dimensions; I have no clue how large LIRR trains are. In other words -- Jamaica gets a ton of service.
Now, we don't have a passenger count, so I can't really take the argument any further. However, very few stations even approach that level of service. I strongly suspect that there are IRT local stations, on my home line and others, that have even greater passenger counts but have much less service (putting aside the WTC changes, anywhere from 12 to 25 tph or thereabouts, and that's of 510-foot narrow trains). Last I heard (again, putting aside the WTC changes), the TA has no plans at this point to increase service on any IRT lines; in fact, a few hundred cars, some of which would be useful to keep around to allow for service increases, are being dumped in the water.
LIRR M-1, M-3 and the upcoming M-7 equipment are all 85' in length....now you know how large they are!! :-)
And how long is a full train?
They should run the "R" to Jamaica Center and run the "E" to 179th.
wayne
And where do They get the cars?
I've proposed running the F out of Jamaica Center at 12 trains an hour and the E out of 179th Street at 18 trains an hour. That would be 3 more trains through 53rd Street than we've got now (with everything on a given route coming from/going to the same place), which should be enough (I've been told that the service plan in place now is workable when everything goes right -- which admittedly doesn't happen very often -- with E trains packed, but pretty much everybody who wants to be able to board one able to get on).
David
Ithought the reasoning behind the F not going to Jamaica center was becasue the to lines crossed[F,J] at the lowwer east side and the Ta didnt think it made much sense if you were going to lower Manhattan[where in 1988 they wanted to convince you to go if you were going to use the new subway]
That was indeed the reasoning in 1988. It is no longer 1988, and perhaps a fresh look needs to be taken at the situation.
David
So they cross. Big deal. The J and Z still don't go to Midtown.
Excellent idea. As I've stated a while back, I do not like the idea of some E's going to 179 in the rush while most go to Parsons/Archer. No matter how many announcements are made, with a good PA by a conductor with accentless perfect english, some passengers will be on the wrong train. If all E's would go to 179 and all F's go to Parsons/Archer, sure there would be initial confusion, but in the long run it would be a much better service plan. Additonally, since there is a better chance of a late F because the longer the trip the better the chance is for lateness, a relay for the F beyond the station would no longer be necessary.
You're joking, right?
The thousands of southeastern Queens residents who have to endure a train/bus transfer at Jamaica Center would scream bloody murder, as they should.
A more reasonable solution would be to swap the E and F in Jamaica, running all E service to 179th at 15 TPH, and the F to Jamaica Center at 12 TPH.
That's good at the north end, but then the Culver Line gets cut to 12 TPH too. Becuase the F line is longer and would save equipment, maybe 3 V's per hour get extended to Kings Highway.
From the TA website, the maximum peak direction headways on the F line in Brooklyn is 12 TPH. The F train is always unbalanced, with more service operating in the peak-direction from Queens than from Brooklyn. My idea would merely balance the service out.
I'd wait until the V could be extended to Church Ave anyway.
they didn't run extra trains. the situation is there are 23 E trains. All 23 cannot all go into jamaica center. When i rode the E to go to college because the E is closest to home, i noticed in evening rush hours E trains had to wait at Sutphin because soo many are always in Jamaica Center. like 2 Es are in and another one had to wait at sutphin till one left. Now what they did is i believe they sent either 3 or 4 Es to 179, RUSH HOURS ONLY. so those special Es go to 179 and when i noticed that in evening rush hours, there was hardly any waiting at sutphin. like i caught the train monday thru friday and friday was the only day we waited. monday thru thursday we entered sutphin and got the lineup before the Conductor could even open the doors. so if u wanna call it a reduction in service u can, but i say its a smart idea. Because if u are a Motorman or Conductor u hardly have enuf time to secure the train grab ur equipment and get out before the next crew arrives and train leaves. So many times do Es enter Jamaica center dump, passengers DETRAIN, and then board, and then boom within a minute or too that same train i came in on is pulling out!
so E to 179 is smart and needs to be permanent.
23 E trains? In an hour? By whose count? I'm staring at the timetable as we speak. It's 15 trains an hour at best.
There are 26 trainSETS assigned to E service.
David
That damned switch alignment has cost me plenty of quick transfers to the J at Supthin, as the E backs up outside of the station.
It's as permanent as anything else is. The E is now running 18 tph, but Jamaica Center can only handle 15 tph. The remaining 3 tph has to go somewhere.
I don't think there are diamond-E signs. Just read the signs and listen to the announcements, and if your E goes the wrong way, backtrack and try again.
The signal you saw only indicates how the switch was set. It doesn't mean trains are actually running over it -- even if the track isn't in regular use, the switch needs to be set to something!
No, the E is now running 15 trains an hour on weekdays (with 15 Fs). Jamaica Center handles 12, and 179th Street handles 3. Prior to Deember 17, on weekdays there were 12 Es and 18 Fs.
David
Thanks for the correction; I apologize for the misinformation. (I knew it had something to do with 3 tph.)
Why is that Jamaica Center can only handle 15 TPH?
I asked that 3 weeks ago. The cross-over isn't right at Parsons/Archer; it's much closer to Sutphin, the previous station.
So there's a much longer period of time than is normal where only 1 train can be coming in or going out. Evidently this location of the crossover is because Parsons/Archer wasn't supposed to be the end station.
Maybe the TA could retro-fit a crossover onto the tracks curving away from Jamaica Center - of course, if they are in separate tunnels, that could get expensive.
Could a cross-over be built east of the station and trains relay on the stub tracks east of that ?
It would make sense to me to do that, so that the station could handle a bit more capacity, but I doubt the MTA would bother with that
Not when you have so much capacity at 179th St. It's probably cheaper to just divert some E's here and keep Archer Ave at 12 TPH. Personally, I think Archer Ave, with all of the never-anticipated bus/subway transfers when the line was designed in the 1960's, could use those extra 3 trains currently running to/from 179th.
Some of those transfers were anticipated; the station was designed from the outset with bus bays. But the MTA didn't imagine just how many people would take advantage of the free Metrocard bus-rail transfers. It was a runaway success beyond the MTA's expectations.
the MTA didn't imagine just how many people would take advantage of the free Metrocard bus-rail transfers.
Wasn't Archer Avenue designed LONG before MetroCard was even imagined?
Yes.
You're right. My post was not written very well. I should have said that MTA underestimated demand for the transfers - and one factor was that MTA didn't predict just how popular Metrocard - and free transfers - would be.
Maybe they should divert some of the Archer buses back to Hillside Avenue to equalize the pain.
Good idea, but 179th St is already crowded with it's own bus transferees, and the loss of the E train after Archer Ave. opened would preclude the dumping of even more of these people at 179th St. or 169th St.
Some of those transfers were anticipated; the station was designed from the outset with bus bays. But the MTA didn't imagine just how many people would take advantage of the free Metrocard bus-rail transfers. It was a runaway success beyond the MTA's expectations
Exactly. The amount of transfers here ballooned after the elimination of 2 fare zones. All those dollar van riders now use the subway.
That's a good idea, although it'll mean a loss of some of the storage ability east of Jamaica Center. But a crossover east of JC (like the one at 205th St on the D) should drastically increase the capacity of Jamaica Center. Unfortunatley, the capacity couldn't be matched at the WTC stub.
The stub tracks at WTC were supposed to really be part of the IND Second system, which did not get built due to many things which are detailed elsewhere. The opportunity now exists to make that into a connection into Brooklyn in its own right, so that the ride from Brooklyn into Manhattan would not be as crowded as it is now.
Current Cranberry St. tunnel service is adequate for the Fulton St. line. If it wasn't, the opportunity exists to increase it without building new tunnels.
But, if they sent the E to Euclid and C to Metropolitan Avenue, it's a non-issue.
The Cranberry St tunnel would become jammed at Chambers St if both the A and E were to use it at current headways. Sending the C to the eastern division is pure fantasy. I like to consider realistic options.
Aren't both A and E 15 tph? Are you saying A is more, or that the tunnel can't actually handle the 30 tph that tracks are supposed to handle?
A+C is about 15 trains an hour (sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less) in the rush. E is 15 trains an hour by itself. In any case, extending the E along Fulton Street without truncating the C would require a TREMENDOUS number of cars; even extending the E while truncating the C would cost cars, since the E runs longer trains, and more of them.
David
Certainly the idea floated required a lot more cars. I was just asking about why you thought the tunnels couldn't handle them. The proposal was A and E to Euclid and beyond, but C over the Williamsburgh Bridge.
I was basing my logjam at Chambers theory on my experiences during the WTC stub switch replacement reroute 2 years ago. A & E trains crawled from Canal St. to Hoyt St. Most of the E trains ran nearly empty on Fulton St due to excessive service.
If you want to run both lines into Brooklyn, the A would have to be cut.
The impression I'm getting is that the service on the Fulton IND is considerably less than what would be capacity. You're saying the A and the C, collectively, at the height of rush, total no more than 15 tph? This would mean A trains at 8 min intervals; I recall 8th Av service as being somewhat better than this.
During the rush hours, the C runs at 8 TPH, the A at 12-15 TPH, according to the TA wesbite.
Yeah, there I go again. I was looking at southbound (since the E was in the mix and southbound is the E's primary direction in the AM rush). Northbound the A has 17 trains leaving Jay Street between 8 and 9 AM, and the C has 8 trains leaving Jay Street in that period. The total is 25 trains, which leaves room for more service, but not a great deal of room (claims of a signal design spec of 40 trains an hour notwithstanding).
David
You could add some C service, but if you replaced it with the E, with the 17 A trains, that's 32 TPH, a very tight squeeze and a guaranteed logjam.
The A & E co-existed for 30-35 years thru those tunnels when there were 18 E's per hour and as many A's. There will be enough to equipment to do it once the R143's are in service.
True, but the A ran less frequently then as it does now, and because both the A & E ran express in Manhattan, no delaying switch at Canal St. was necessary.
I've experienced A/E service into Brooklyn under modern conditions, and the service was slow & excessive.
Nothing is permanent in the TA. I can't tell you how many times service plans have changed for a whole variety of reasons: MannyB and WillyB closures, new routes opening, N/R terminal switch. Even ones' employment, even if he/she lives to see a pension, is a temporary one under the grand scheme of things.
I'm employed as a bus operator by MTA Long Island Bus, and do vacation reliefs, which allows me to drive new routes weekly and sometimes daily. The route I drove today, the N24 (Jamaica-Mitchel Field), has a good number of NYCTA employees, both active and retired, using it. Today, I met an ex-motorman, 86 years of age, who started with the BMT in 1944 and retired 33 years later. He mentioned that he operated on all three divisions, and still has all his tools, and some other memorabilia. We exchanged phone numbers and will be in contact shortly. Perhaps then we can get some definitive answers to some of the questions being asked in this newsgroup. If anyone has any questions, please e-mail them to me, and I'll ask them when I meet with this gentleman, hopefully soon.
Also, in rearranging my basement, I discovered a number of copies of a book, sold out over ten years ago, which I had published on the Newark City Subway in 1985, titled Traction Extra #1, The City Subway, Newark's Best Kept Secret. You may view the covers and some sample pages of the book at : http://members.aol.com/joepcc699/TE1.jpg
I'm offering it to this group's members on a first-come, first saved basis. A brief description of the book follows. Its price is $34.95 per copy plus shipping ($7.00 UPS, $3.90 USPS Priority), in the United States. I'll ship it anywhere, but shipping costs will be higher.
Traction Extra #1: The City Subway, Newark's Best Kept Secret. Published in 1986 to commemorate 50th Anniversary of the Newark City Subway in New Jersey. This is a brand new, not previously owned, book. Limited edition of only 1,000 copies; it will not be reprinted. We are the publisher, and are offering the few remaining new copies of this beautiful book that are available; they may be purchased only directly from us. The photos shown below are of the front and rear covers covers and selected inside pages. This book would be a superb birthday or any occasion gift for the trolley enthusiast and can be shipped worldwide. 64 pages, glossy stock, perfect bound, laminated cardstock covers, 132 black and white and 24 color photos, five maps, roster, statistics, and photo sections from the Morris Canal (in which the subway was built), the subway's construction, testing of the new line, beginning of service, each of the lines feeding into the subway (Orange, Central and Bloomfield), arrival and operation of the PCC cars, photos of sister PCC cars in other cities, the subway as it existed in 1985, and pictures of the City Subway's 50th Anniversary celebration. This is an extremely hard-to-find book and the a nice addition to the library for any traction enthusiast.
If interested, please contact me at: JoePCC699@AOL.com
Thank you.
Joe Saitta
This is an fresh article from the AP on Amtrak's future....
Amtrak would lose ownership of tracks and stations under panel's plans
Eds: INSERTS graf 13, Amtrak spokesman, with Amtrak declining comment, statement from railroad passenger group
By LAURENCE ARNOLD
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Amtrak would be forced to relinquish ownership of tracks and stations, bridges and tunnels under proposals by a federal panel studying the financially troubled passenger railroad.
The Amtrak Reform Council meets Friday to finalize recommendations it will deliver to Congress on Feb. 7. The recommendations hold no legal weight, but will help frame the debate on Amtrak's future.
The three proposals under consideration differ in how much -- and how fast -- they would open Amtrak's current monopoly to competition from private companies. But all three scenarios envision transferring ownership of Amtrak's tracks and stations, said Tom Till, the council's executive director.
The new owner would likely be one or more new subsidiaries of the National Rail Passenger Corporation -- an existing federal entity that, until now, has been synonymous with Amtrak. Under the council's plans, Amtrak would act only as an operating company under the federal corporation.
Eventually, ownership of the stations and track could be transferred to states or cities.
Amtrak owns 730 miles of track, mostly in the Northeast Corridor between Boston and Washington, plus in Michigan. It owns stations along the Northeast Corridor, plus Union Station in Chicago.
The tracks and stations Amtrak owns represent just a tiny fraction its network. Amtrak serves 500 stations over 22,000 route miles. Most of the tracks are owned by freight railroads, which receive usage fees from Amtrak.
Amtrak was not originally designed to own real estate. It took possession of the Northeast Corridor assets in 1976 from the estate of Penn Central Railroad, as part of the creation of Conrail.
The railroad uses its assets to raise revenue. It plans to build a hotel inside Baltimore's Penn Station and an office tower or hotel near 30th Street Station in Philadelphia.
In addition, Amtrak expected to raise $33 million last year from letting telecommunications companies use cables and install antennas along its route through the Northeast.
But the assets also impose substantial costs. The reform council estimates that it takes $800 million to $1 billion each year to keep the Northeast Corridor in a state of good repair. It says Amtrak has spent just $71 million on Northeast Corridor maintenance each of the past two years.
A majority of the 11-member reform council has long said that Amtrak should lose its real-estate holdings and focus exclusively on running trains. Amtrak officials have shown little enthusiasm for the idea.
Amtrak spokesman Bill Schulz declined to comment Thursday. The National Association of Railroad Passengers, which generally supports Amtrak, said recommendations to separate Amtrak from its non-rail assets "bear a disturbing similarity to the early steps in the process that led to Britain's current railway crisis."
A 1997 law gave Amtrak until Dec. 2, 2002, to begin operating without federal subsidies, and it created the reform council to monitor the railroad's progress. A majority of council members concluded last month that Amtrak will not achieve that goal.
That finding meant the council had 90 days to draw up a plan for a restructured national rail system. The council wants to take much or all of Amtrak's authority and divide it among states or private companies.
Amtrak posted a cash loss of $405 million in the first eight months of 2001 and has consumed more than $25 billion in subsidies since its inception in 1971.
The council is steering clear from discussions of cutting routes.
"The ultimate size and structure of the system is going to be determined by the Congress," Till said.
A major topic of discussion at Friday's meeting will be who will operate intercity trains. Under one scenario, Amtrak would continue to run trains but would begin reporting to a government agency on route and service decisions.
Under a second scenario, private companies would submit bids for certain routes. Government subsidies would be available as long as they are lower than those Amtrak is receiving.
A third scenario envisions a gradual transition from current Amtrak management to a system of competitive bids.
All three scenarios leave open the possibility that states would take over management of train routes that affect them.
------
On the Net:
Amtrak Reform Council http://www.amtrakreformcouncil.gov
Amtrak: http://amtrak.com/
(Copyright 2002 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
Check out this article in yhe NYPress:
http://www.nypress.com/15/2/news&columns/first.cfm
For those who don't know, the NYPress is one of those free weekly newspapers available in newsboxes in Manhattan. The Village Voice is another. One time they did a quick highlight of nycsubway.org and used the logo at the time (and they didn't ask permission).
Did they contact the Guinness Book?
:0)
> The Village Voice is another. One time they did a quick
> highlight of nycsubway.org and used the logo at the time
Hey, someone remembers that!
-dave
I worked overtime earlier today. Actually, on the midnight tour and I worked the G line. It was quite an experience since I haven't worked off the A or C lines in some time. Let me say, it was enlightening to say the least.
The G is running in four-car sets instead of the usual six. I found out that was done in order to accomodate the new V line, much like what was done to the C (a whole 8 car set of R32s was taken from the C line and sent into Queens). People were packed in like sardines trying to squeeze into those four cars. It was a sight to see.
Second, Most of the station stop car markers are out of whack. Trains were stopping all the way at the end of the platform when the exit was clearly at the other end. People had to run upwards of up to four car lengths to get on the train. Most were angry about that askingme why the train stopped at the other end of the station (like I could answer that). I asked my partner about that and he replied that train operators could get into trouble for not stopping at the correct stop car marker, so they had to stop there even if it meant people had to run for the trains.
What have they done to the G line? It's a mere shell of what it used to be. It scares me because if they can do this to the G, what does that mean for the other lines that are not considered high priority, like the C? Will my C be shortened to six cars? Will the OPTO ax fall on it as well? As far as transit is concerned, one never knows.
What have they done to the G line? It's a mere shell of what it used to be.
One word: Shuttleizing.
The G has always been the stepchild of the system. Now after December it is the Orphan!
little orphan annie ??
Shouded it be Little Orphan Gannie!
Robert
oh no !!
should i video it next summer ??
lol !
If it was elevated, it would have never survived the 1970's.
But the G needs more cars ASAP.
Spotting point: When it's cut to TWO cars, opto, you'll know it ain't the Brighton line anymore ...
What next, a piggy back ride down the tracks?
Two words ... "hand trucks" ... "This is a Brooklyn bound B train making stops wherever the hell I feel like, watch the closing doors, bing bong." Pump 'em if ya got 'em ...
Once cars start filtering off from ENY and to Coney Island, perhaps Jamaica will get Coney's R32's, and those cars in turn will be assigned to the G. I have seen the conditions on the train, this train must get at least 6 or 8 cars.
i was complaining about this before it happened. I forget who but someone on here said '4 cars is more than enough for the G'. ...riiiight.
when someone slips running for the train, or gets hit by one after running and falling off a platform, then theere will be hell to pay for the short trains/long platforms, OPTO, shit service, etc.
I hope that 143' is done with it's testing, cuz some cars out of ENY might be quite helpful elsewhere!
I wont be suprised if down the road, the G is eliminated and is replaced by a B61 limited bus.
I wont be suprised if down the road, the G is eliminated and is replaced by a B61 limited bus.
I doubt that very much. The (G) is entirely underground, apart from Smith-9th which it shrares with the (F). Plus it has quite respectable ridership.
:-) Andrew
I wont be suprised if down the road, the G is eliminated and is replaced by a B61 limited bus.
I doubt that very much. The (G) is entirely underground, apart from Smith-9th which it shrares with the (F). Plus it has quite respectable ridership.
And remember all the ruckus a few years back when the Transit Authority proposed closing the Franklin Avenue Shuttle and replacing it with upgraded bus service. The Shuttle had much lower ridership than the G, probably not much of a time advantage over bus service, and was in very poor physical condition, but that didn't stop a big outcry against the closing plan.
I predict that the G will be around for a long time to come.
The G statement by "SubBus" was obviously tongue-in-cheek. Ridership can be quite heavy on the G at times.
Thank you, Zman. It was a joke. Everyone knows that will never happen. The G will continue to live on and on and on and on...........
You know, Mike, at this point it wouldn't surprise me in the least. They wanted to do that to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle at one point. Looks like it might happen soon to the G.
That's absurd, abandon the whole G line? Ain't gonna happen.
Let's not get melodramatic.
The (G) is an underrated line. For a local it's relatively fast, and I think it's quite useful for travel within "the boroughs". It would be great if only the wait times weren't so long.
Cutting the (G) back during peak hours was perhaps a necessary evil. While its ridership is fairly high, it's not as great as the number of Queens Blvd riders who need to go to/from Manhattan. In this case the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the (relatively) few. Restoring it for off-hours was a good compromise.
:-) Andrew
I like the B-61, and definitely think it could use a Limited. But the G is important and usefull service. If the 1 is getting re-built, run it under the water to Red Hook, and connect it to the G there, instead of it's current dead end at Smith-9th. Then it could terminate at Court Sq. 24/7. Yeah, I know, A div, B div...it would never happen.
Moving platforms for every IRT door
I have no problem with them cutting back service into Queens during peak hours, Andrew. But why four car trains? Don't they know that ridership in Brooklyn didn't change? They took those cars off the G (like the old saying goes "robbing Peter to pay Paul") and put them on the V line that nobody's using. They should have used six cars on the V to determine if it would be a success and if so then use 8 cars.
Well, I do agree with you that 4-car tains won't cut it on the (G).
:-) Andrew
Weren't G headways decreased slightly to make up for the shorter trains?
And where do you get the idea that nobody's using the V?
G headways were indeed tightened during the "school rush" to compensate for the shorter trains.
David
I say nobody's using the V, David, because from what I've seen, people in Queens are preferring to wait for an E as opposed to riding the V. People have this idea that "express" means faster, so they tend to wait for an express train to get them their quicker. In reality, as was explained in a different topic, "express" does not necessarily mean faster; it just means "less stops". In my opinion, no one's giving up the E to give an extra five or six minutes extra commute to ride the V.
For example, if you lived at the Forest Hills station in Queens and needed to ride the train Lexington Avenue and 53rd Street in Manhattan, which train would you take? The E which is more crowded but requires less travel time or the V, which guarantees you a seat and lots of space but takes more time to reach your destination?
I say nobody's using the V, David, because from what I've seen, people in Queens are preferring to wait for an E as opposed to riding the V. People have this idea that "express" means faster, so they tend to wait for an express train to get them their quicker. In reality, as was explained in a different topic, "express" does not necessarily mean faster; it just means "less stops". In my opinion, no one's giving up the E to give an extra five or six minutes extra commute to ride the V.
Oh. In other words, you say nobody's using the V because you don't see why anyone would use the V -- not because nobody's actually using the V. An intriguing approach, but it doesn't always lead to the correct conclusions.
You've forgotten about some people. You've forgotten about the people who don't mind riding for a few minutes longer in exchange for a seat. You've forgotten about the people who prefer to be on a moving train than to be waiting on the platform for an express. And you've forgotten about the people -- I realize they're an unpopular bunch on this board -- who live and work at local stops. Or did you expect them to jump onto moving E's?
I have seen real, live people on the V. I wasn't paying close attention, so I don't know where they were going. I don't know why they picked the V as opposed to any other line. All I can say is that they were there, on the V.
For example, if you lived at the Forest Hills station in Queens and needed to ride the train Lexington Avenue and 53rd Street in Manhattan, which train would you take? The E which is more crowded but requires less travel time or the V, which guarantees you a seat and lots of space but takes more time to reach your destination?
Woah, hold it. What gives you the idea that I'm at Forest Hills? Maybe I'm at a local stop. Maybe I'm at Roosevelt. Maybe I'm at Queens Plaza. Did you notice that not everyone comes from Forest Hills?
But I'll play your game, if you like. What time of day is it? Am I in a hurry or do I have some time to kill? Are 60th, 63rd, or 42nd close enough? Rush hours, the E runs frequently enough that waiting for the E is probably the fastest route, although I'd probably take an F to Roosevelt if an F came before the E, just to increase my options. Other times, I'd take whichever express came first. If an E, I'm all set. If an F, I'd get off at Roosevelt and wait there. If a V came next, I'd probably take it.
But so what? None of this applies if I'm not at Forest Hills or I'm not going to 53/Lex. Not every Queens commuter shares your exact commute.
You've forgotten about the people who don't mind riding for a few minutes longer in exchange for a seat.
"A few minutes longer?" I get on the R/V at Woodhaven Blvd. Twice, I've transferred to the E at Roosevelt Ave. The first time, I arrived at Queens Plaza the same time as the V I had left; the second, my E pulled into QP just in time to see the R I was on pull out.
Why does the E go so slow? Are you sure it was the same train and not the next?
Why does the E go so slow?
Timers, door-holders, and merging with the V after QP; take your pick.
Are you sure it was the same train and not the next?
I kept track of the car number.
"And where do you get the idea that nobody's using the V?"
One afternoon recently I rode the outbound 'V' from 23/Ely to Woodhaven. We left a substantial number of people on the platforms at Steinway, Grand and Woodhaven who apparently wouldn't board this train- out of unfamiliarity, perhaps?
I informed some people at Woodhaven that they could've boarded the 'V', since both services make the same stops and both end at Continental. Their response was along the lines of, "Oh, no, we'll only take the 'G'(!) or 'R'."
Well, I TRIED-
I had to reassure a woman at 53/Lex that the V train she had hesitantly boarded would take her to 23/6. She got confused by the electronic signs, which flash both 6 AV EXP and 2 AV. When I realized she was afraid it was a 2nd Avenue train, I nearly cracked up -- but she's absolutely right that the signage is ambiguous and could use some "to" and "via" legends.
As far as I know, in order to compensate for 4 car trains, G headways were actually decreased during the rush hours. And service reliability should be better since it does not have to compete with the R trains on Queens Blvd. and rerouted to the local track E & F trains when the express track is blocked for any reason. I could see the first and last cars on the G being overcrowded however if the passengers continue to wait for the trains on the entire platform rather than in the area where it actually stops.
I told you so, I told you so. G ridership is really under-rated and under evaluated. how about some R-68`s for the G? The line needs cars right now.
A small fire in the Ivy City Yard damaged one car according to the Washington Post on page B3 of today's paper. Not too many details, the article was about 4 lines. Cause under investigation.
I cant seem to get anything to fix this error.
"Error5 Invalid Call or argument" its on the BVE FAQ site section labled "error5" but I DONT READ JAPANESE!!!! anyone help me? anyone with same problem? happens on all routes. at different times. Gives choice to continue or quit, if you continue the sim proceeds but the error pops up again. And I cant press yes 30 times a second. ARGHH. at least with MSTS they responded to my mail and when I called them the techincian called back but you get what you pay for. Anyone please help!!!!!! Many thanks.
there is a fun Japanese-to-English translator at http://babelfish.altavista.com. Be warned that Japanese grammar is almost the reverse of English grammar, so you have to have quite an imagination to decipher the output. It's better than learning Japanese, no?
--
Ian Penovich
My friend had this problem. You need to turn down your DirectX sound acceleration. Turn it down notch by notch until the error message goes away.
Go to the DirectX configuratior which is in (i think) c:\Program Files\DirectX\
I think the file is called setup.exe
Go to the sound tab and a slider should be there.
Hope this helps. :D
oy thats exactly what the Japanese had to say. Thank you much. both of you.
I only get that when something's wrong with the route file. What route are you using?
Just like my subject line title suggests, I am looking for pictures of in and all around Penn Station, the main floor, the platforms, even the shops in there, anything you got.
I also want pictures of the NJ Transit, particularly the Dover stop on the Morristown Line and also....whatever stop goes by Rugers University (I can't remember the name for the life of me).
Anythign you got, you can post a link here, link me by email or ask me questions to pdernerjr@hotmail.com
If you are emailing me pictures, please send them to bigphil395@aol.com
Thank you all in advance.
I NEED this!! HELP ME! HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, RuTgers University's main campus is located in New Bruswick. Here is a link that may help:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/commuter/njt/index.html
Good luck, and Calm down!!!
New BruNswick!
Today was the last day of the 30 day clock. Anyone know if they offically passed the test? If so, what is the next step? Holding at ENY for more testing? When will they be allowed to enter revenue service?
I'm gonna have a few hours this Monday to ride the subways in Washington DC. Any recommendations as to what lines to take in terms of riding pleasure per minute :) I'll probably have between 3 and 5 hours. Will I be able to get a map at the first station I come to? I'm not familiar at all with the system. Last time i rode it was maybe 10 years ago. Will I be able to make free transfers to ride most of the day on one fare? I should go to their website and look at it. Thanks for any info....
Most any station should have a map of the system at it. I'm most familliar with the Union Station/Amtrak (Red Line) and the Rosslyn, VA (Orange Line) stations. If you have that much time on your hands, buy a $5 one-day pass. That way, you'll probably spend less on fares and you won't have to deal with the annoying "Exitfare" or guessing how much it is from point "A" to point "B". Union Station/Amtrak is bad at rush hour and Metro Center can be very confusing to any tourist from Connecticut like me. If you need more info, log onto www.wmata.com (Metro's website).
I too would recommend the $5 all-day pass (only valid after 9:30am on weekdays). In general the fares are based on distanced traveled (you have to use your farecard to get both in and out), so the all-day pass will be best if you want to leave the system at all.
I would think that you would like to see the impressive multi-story transfer stations downtown (L'Enfant Plaza, Gallery Place-Chinatown, and Metro Center). The Red line is probably the busiest and contains sone long and fast underground runs (between Dupont Circle and Bethesda) and some of the deepest transit stations in North America (like Forest Glen and Wheaton). The yellow line from downtown to Huntington (past Pentagon and National Airport) is an interesting ride, including the Potomac River bridge and the unique station at the hillside terminus at Huntington.
Enjoy your trip!
Have you taken the Red Line past Bethesda? The whole Red Line is awesome, check out my reviews of all the lines on my website at www.orenstransitpage.com.
However you can get there, ride the Yellow line from Virginia towards the District over the Potomac River bridge. You get a spectacular view of the city. There are also points in Alexandria (Yellow and/or Blue Line) where Metro runs outside near pleasant scenery and CSX ROW. Other than that, the rest of the system is very monotonous, with all the cars and stations' decor so similar you sometimes can't tell where you are but for the signs. Not to knock The Metro, though. It's just that that's where I would make sure to ride if I had limited time.
Study the Washington DC Metro Line by Line pages.
--Mark
Be advised they are working on the Red, Green, and Orange lines this weekend.
That said, maps are available at all the stations. My reccomendations for intersting lines are as follows:
Red to Shady Grove
Orange to Vienna
Blue and Yellow to Franconia-Springfield and Huntington, respectively
Green to either end
My line by line reviews are available at www.orenstransitpage.com. Once you are at the Departure Board, click Washington, DC. The review is towards the bottom.
If you want to stick close to the center of town, the Red and Green Lines make an interesting loop (go to Fort Totten, change for the other one). Be sure to check out Metro Center, L'Enfant Plaza, and Gallery Place as well.
If you have any more questions, feel free to e-mail me.
thanks for the help!
If you wanna get off at any station, get off at Dupont Circle. Interesting, pretty neighborhood. walk up Connecticut, R, and 18th streets, and head up to Adams Morgan. walk West on calvert over the massive Ellington Bridge, and end your walking tour at the Woodley Park Station, which is a short half-block up the hill from Calvert on Connecticut.
I'm a life-long New Yorker (Long Island, specifically) who has been riding Metro since its opening in 1976 (my wife has relatives in Northern VA whom we visit frequently). Start at Metro Center and follow this itinerary that will show much variety:
Take Orange Line to Vienna - then return to Rosslyn (same platform). Interesting ride in the median of I-66. When returning to Rosslyn transfer to Blue Line towards Franconia-Springfield (if you have time and have an unlimited $5 farecard, take the escalator up and out of the station - quite a ride. Plenty of food places in Rosslyn also right in the station vicinity). Get off Blue train at National Airport and wait for Yellow line to Huntington. Go to Huntington and then return to DC on the Yellow line, crossing the Potomac on a long bridge parallel to Amtrak's bridge and I-395. Go to the last stop - Mt Vernon Square, and wait for a Green Line train towards Greenbelt, where there is an adjacent MARC station. Return on the Green to Fort Totten, and transfer to the Red Line upstairs. Take train towards Shady Grove - if you have time, go all the way to Shady Grove and then return to downtown DC, or if you're pressed for time get off Red Line at Metro Center where you began. Should take about 3 hours (excluding getting out at any station and walking around) if you return directly to Metro Center on the Red Line - will take 4+ hours if you go all the way to Shady Grove and back.
You will see tunnels, both shallow and deep, viaducts, surface level lines, a long bridge, freeway medians, and interesting transfer stations (Metro Center, Fort Totten, Rosslyn). Have fun.
thanks! thats a lot of info! I probably won't have 4+ hours, but I'll try to use your itinerary as much as I can.
The Green Line has the widest variety of station types; the upper end of it (from Gallery Place to Greenbelt) is quite interesting. When in the center of town, check out the junction stations (Metro Center, Gallery Place, LEnfant Plaza).
wayne
thanks!
hey I regularly take the Montauk Branch.I would like to know the differenes including any physical ones between C1-C2-C3 bilevel Kawasaki cars on the LIRR. Where do they run each car type i know they retired the old deisel crap cars 3 years ago. Becuase i hear about different door chimes between them. I think the only ones i saw in service are C2-C3 bi level coaches. If anyone can tell me what model coaches they use now in Deisel territories. Enlighten me.
The original C-1's had 3-2 seating. The C-3's have 2-2 seating.
I don't think I ever heard of C-2's
What were the C-1, the original one on the Port jeff Branch?
Yes, They ran with the FL9AC's that are now retired and waiting their fate at Metro North's Croton East Yards. The C-1's are still sitting at the leads to Jamaica Storage Facility/Morris Park Yards. In order to operate, they need either a massive rebuild, or the FL9's again.
The C-1s were very different than the C-3(if you're a nitpicker).
1. The cut in the blue stripe went in the opposite direction as the ones on the C-3.
2. There was METROPOLITAN TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY in the middle of the stripe.
3. The exit door window had a metal bar in the middle.
4. The windows were tinted (including storm doors).
5. The windows had metal frames on the inside.
6. The floor was tan.
7. No digital signs or computerized anything.
8. Door close sound was an electric bell (like the M-1/3).
9. Bathrooms were on the southwest end of odd numbered cars (C-3s are in the northwest end) and had the blue stuff for flushing instead of water.
10.The cars were in married pairs.
11.The train smelled different.
12.Neat echo sound over the PA.
13.On the upper floor, the 3 seaters were on the south side while on the lower floor the 3 seaters were on the north side.
14.The seats were light blue in color and of an identical design to the MNRR Shoreliner II and III seats.
15.The coat hook was more round.
16.The lights on the upper level angled toward the ceiling. The bottom level was the same as the C-3s arrangement.
17.The train was dead silent most of the time (no loud ventalation system).
18.Car #s were in the 3000s, from 3001-3010 with 3005-6 used for spare parts.
19.The engines were Fl-9s 300 and 302, The engine names were Kevin Blum and Mike O'Connel (or something like that).
do the C1s run at all or are they out of service.
Out of service for now, unless either they are still up for sale, being rebuilt, or up for scrap.
>>Out of service for now, unless either they are still up for sale, being rebuilt, or up for scrap.<<
They are indeed out of service. I was told they are up for sale, but no one's buying. Wanna buy a white elephant ?
There was an idea floating around about rebuilding them as bar cars to run with the C-3s, but that was shot down. Too many big bucks.
Bill "Newkirk"
hey might as well put them in service we could use an extra train running. All that money wasted. Why are they out of out service mechinical problems? I'm guessing they were prototypes for the C3s. I dunno is it possible to link C1s- C3s together? Like how its possible to link the M1-M3 together.
>>hey might as well put them in service we could use an extra train running. All that money wasted. Why are they out of out service mechinical problems? I'm guessing they were prototypes for the C3s.<<
Yes you'r right. The C-1s were the prototypes for the C-3s
>>I dunno is it possible to link C1s- C3s together?<<
Not possible. First off, the couplers on the C-1s are the M-1 style and the couplers on the C-3s are the standard tightlock type. Next, The C-1s are wired for a different voltage (*hotel power), than the C-3s. The C-1s would have to be rewired and thats where the big bucks come into play. And that's why the LIRR has white elephants for sale!
And nobody's buying them because what commuter railroad would buy a used one of a kind trainset that operates on a different voltage than theirs and are high level platform only. That's where your white elephants come into play ! (* Hotel power is a term to describe what voltage the coach operates on. Lights,heat, A/C etc)
>>Like how its possible to link the M1-M3 together<<
M-1s and M-3s are currently being linked together as seperate trainsets. Now take an M-1 "A" car and mate it with an M-3 "B" car, that I'm not sure of. But I was told that the M-4 and M-6s that run on Metro North which are 3 car units can have the middle car removed and run as a two car set. That hasn't been done, but is capable.
Bill "Newkirk"
< The C-1s are wired for a different voltage (*hotel power), than the C-3s. >
Actually, I believe it is the MU and intercar control circuits being different, one 16v, the other 32v. The actual HEP is 480v in either case. Even if they were the same, the computers on each type of car don't speak to one another.
Like how its possible to link the M1-M3 together.
When the M-3s were purchased, they were designed to MU with M-1s. As to whether they could be linked together as one pair (if that is what you are asking), I am not aware of it having been done as yet. It would seem possible, though.
All that money wasted. Why are they out of out service Mechinical problems? I'm guessing they were prototypes for the C3s.
The C-1s were the prototypes for the C-3. When the C-3s were ordered, the order was sufficient to meet the LIRRs current and near-future needs. Much like the R-110A and R-110B, the C-1s were built to test the feasibility of the concepts to be incorporated into the C-3s. Like most test trainsets, there were little or no spare parts so 2 cars ultimately became organ donors, leaving just 8 viable cars for service. To continue running these cars in service would be short-lived until more parts were needed. Since the FL-9s that pulled them are re-assigned, the cars will have to be extensively modified or locos will need to be converted to pull the cars again. It would seem, based on that, the LIRR is actually saving money by keeping un-needed cars out of service.
Yeah Bill, I agree, but it would look very ugly with the C-3's. Metro North should give the good F's back to the LIRR since they are putting them to what I heard "on the Shelf" since they have a surplus of Genesis engines.
Neil,
The LIRR FL-9s are better off where they are at Croton North awaiting scrapping. They were very problematic and even one of the three units was cannabalized for parts. You know the LIRR track record for maintenance. A couple of the C-1s are also cannabalized for parts too. The only way out is to totally rebuild the C-1s to C-3 specs and make them compatable. BIG BUCKS !! and the LIRR is not interested anyway, not gonna happen.
Bill "Newkirk"
The LIRR FL-9's had an MDBF of aroung 1,900 miles and often caught fire, wouldn't cut-over to 3rd rail, or simply broke down. 7 identical RLW FL-9's that ran on Metro North all along ran better. It was no accident that the LIRR ones were in a Metro-North paint scheme - the LIRR had no intention of keeping them.
Had the LIRR's capital planning morons electrified to Port Jeff, we would never have had the costly fiasco of C1's ($37 M), FL-9's ($18 M), DE/DM's, etc. 10 years later and miserable service to Port Jeff, the ridership has permanently shifted away and there is now little incentive to electrify. The LIRR has done to the Port Jeff what the TA has done to the Sea Beach, and probably worse.
>>Had the LIRR's capital planning morons electrified to Port Jeff, we would never have had the costly fiasco of C1's ($37 M), FL-9's ($18 M), DE/DM's, etc. 10 years later and miserable service to Port Jeff, the ridership has permanently shifted away and there is now little incentive to electrify<<
I heard that the cost overruns associated with building the Hillside Facility was to blame with electrification of the Port Jeff branch.
Bill "Newkirk"
I am sure that once the GCT connection is opened, you will see direct service from Port Jeff to Penn Station. Truly I think that LIRR will do to Port Jeff what Metro North did to Poughkeepsie in the early 1990's with using its dual-mode engines for direct service at all times including weekends and nights. Before you guys mention anything else, yes the trains from Poughkeepsie run shuttles in the wee hours, but I think the LIRR will do the same type of thing. The Port Jeff Branch is still a very busy line to ride on.
>>I am sure that once the GCT connection is opened, you will see direct service from Port Jeff to Penn Station.<<
Not gonna happen, it seems that the Bi-level cars will not fit throught the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel. MU electrics will only clear it. I know.....OOOPS !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Not gonna happen, it seems that the Bi-level cars will not fit throught the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel. MU electrics will only clear it. I know.....OOOPS !!
Although to put this in perspective, the tunnel was specced in the 1960s when IRRC the LIRR had no bilevels.
>>Although to put this in perspective, the tunnel was specced in the 1960s when IRRC the LIRR had no bilevels.<<
And that's why we won't see any bilevels and DM-30s lounging around in the lower level of GCT !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The builders should have had the foresight of the possibilty. Not like Bi-levels were an unheard of thing back then
The builders should have had the foresight of the possibilty. Not like Bi-levels were an unheard of thing back then
Better to overbuild a bit then underbuild
Not like Bi-levels were an unheard of thing back then
Like this?
Not like Bi-levels were an unheard of thing back then ... Like this?
What years did that equipment run? On which lines?
I've always been fond of bilevels, having spent formative years on the old SP commuter train up the SF Peninsula (now the CalTrain). They didn't have nearly the height constrictions that LIRR does; those suckers were tall. But it's always seemed to me a smart way to increase capacity, not to mention a coolness factor.
Which reminds me ... I saw double-stack boxcars on the West Shore Line this weekend, up in Saugerties, NY. Reminded me that any cross-harbor freight tunnel will have to be able to handle double-stacks. I gotta assume that most of the country maxes out at that height, but I wonder what else they'd have to plan into a freight tunnel to last 100+ years? More height? Bellmouths?
BIlevel cars weren't figured into 63rd st planning because it was decided on.They weren't part of the LIRR's big future,due to the fact they had an MU[M1 train] that could travel in non-electric service.It didnt last long,as for some reason it failed.
an irony you might appreciate. Name the formerly wider guage RR whose tunnels were large enough for stacks a century later.
Yes, we're only going to see MUs in the tunnel.
The LIRR can run the dual modes from Port Jeff to Penn Station right now, but they won't and never will because the DM's are junk and everyone knows it.
Both points are incorrect and a little juvenile. I don't have the Port Jeff schedule but the 16:49 from Penn Station runs to Port Jeff. As to the DMs being junk, they have some technical problems and are somewhat underpowered, however, the majority of the engineers I've ridden with and/or talked to generally like them. Except for the feel of the old days, they generally perfer them to the GP-38s.
There is nothing incorrect or juvenile about 16 major punch list items for which they are being sent to Kentucky, including cracking frames, yaw dampers, and non-functional HVAC in the cabs with temperatures ranging from 0 to 100, in clear FRA violation.
The LIRR has no intention of thru-running any off-peak in lieu of shuttles and MU's even though though ought to be able to.
Not being able to handle over 6 cars for their 3000HP has calling them "slightly underpowered" the uderstatement of the year for which people involved in this corrupt procurement ought to be going to jail.
"The LIRR can run the dual modes from Port Jeff to Penn Station right now, but they won't and never will because the DM's are junk and everyone knows it."
I've copied your statement from the post that I replied to so there would not be any misunderstandings. The LIRR does run service directly from Port Jeff to Penn Station. Where in your statement does it say anything about weekends?
As for the rest, I object tot he term junk. I don't know how familiar you are with the DM30AC locomotives. My only experience with them are the few cab rides I have had. The information I have is from the folks who operate them on a daily basis. Each one has some criticism of the locos, the primary one is (as you have said) they are very under powered since the hotel power & traction power are derived from the 3KHP diesel engine. Despite this and despite the other problems you listed, no one I've talked to has said they are junk or they are less desirable than the GP-38s. Each of them feels that the defects are resolvable and the locos will be viable for many years. I guess we both define junk differently. As for people going to jail - if a case can be made, lock their asses up.
< 've copied your statement from the post that I replied to so there would not be any misunderstandings. The LIRR does run service directly from Port Jeff to Penn Station. Where in your statement does it say anything about weekends? >
I meant in addition to the 2 rush hour thru trains. Most Port Jeff shuttle service will never be thru-routed to NYP like the Poughkeepsie trains are to GCT because the DM's are not reliable.
Three have alreay been written off and many have never run in revenue service. I think that is scandalous.
There is one Metro north train to Poughkeepse that uses one MU[M1/3] middays so you have to tranfer at Croten Harman.
There is one Metro north train to Poughkeepse that uses one MU[M1/3] middays so you have to tranfer at Croton Harmon.
Since I just got off the POK-GCT train 2 hours ago, I figure I'd haul out a schedule and settle this once and for all:
From NY to POK, there is ONE M-F train requiring a change at Croton (M-F), at 1:20 am, and 2 on weekends, at 1:20 am and 6:20 am.
From POK to NY, there are 2 M-F, at 9:59 pm and 10:59 pm, and 4 on weekends, at 9:33 pm, 10:59 pm, 4:30 am and 5:23 am.
Speaking from personal experience, Metro North has clearly reduced the number of transfers for "most" passengers. The exception is those whose jobs or other commitments require them to ride into NYC late at night or out of NYC in the wee hours. Good going, Metro North!
There are no C-2s
>>There are no C-2s<<
That would fall in line with the LIRR M-1s and M-3s. They are both odd numbers, the M-2 is Metro North, just like the M-4 and M-6.
Funny, there is no M-5..........which brings us to the M-7 !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Earlier in the evening, as I was driving on Grant Highway (Bronx) intending to turn westbound on the Washington Heights Bridge, I spotted an R-143 "B" car on a flatbed truck, on the southbound side of University Av. My guess is that the truck intended to turn westbound onto the bridge, probably as a way to get to 207th without having to navigate the 207th Street Bridge. The time was 11:35. I couldn't get the car number b/c I was at a bad angle and had to take a green arrow before I wound up getting pulled over by the two police units guarding the bridge's entrance.
I went down to Penn Station even earlier this evening to pick up Amtrak's guidebook and Northeast timetable for 2002 (I'm a SA member thinking of using that nice little 15% discount). I notice that Amtrak has a new electronic signboard listing train departures well into the night. The problem was that there were no listings of departures of NJ Transit trains, which is odd considering that there were at least a dozen departures of NJ Transit trains (NJ Coast, NE Corridor, and Midtown Direct) scheduled at that period of time (around 7 PM). The NRPC getting selfish? Perhaps. I then go to the customer serivce desk to ask for the guidbook and NE timetable, only to get stuck behind a patron asking for a departure time from the guy with the guidebook in front of him, and the lady next to him looking at me as if I was in some sort of rush. Did I feel silly when I later found that I could have had both at some of the new kiosks set up during the renovation!
As I was heading back for the "deuce," I noticed a lot of police officers (couldn't tell if they were either Amtrak's or NYPD's) standing by the Chase ATM facility, with some people inside. Didn't know if the people inside were stuck or not. But there was a lady insdie who seemed to have a key to the door gesturing to the cops. But there was also a man inside waiting to get to a machine.
On the subway uptown, I went through the guidebook looking for anything interesting. The first thing I found was that there were several new routes proposed for serivce this year:
A line that branches off the Sunset Limited near El Paso, TX, that would serve the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex,
A line that branches off the Cresent at Meridien, MS that would serve Houston and Dallas,
The "Downeaster" going north from Boston to Maine,
A Florida-Atlantic coast line that may be the fifth Silver Service train (The Meteor, Palm, Star, and Carolinian are the other four),
A new line from Chicago to Des Moines, IA, and
A revitalized "Desert Wind" that could run from LA to Las Vegas.
There was obviously no mention of the financial problems that Amtrak has been experiencing, particuarly that of their possibly being liquidated and divided among "competitors" (according to WCBS 880 AM) later this year. The Acela section was up front and highly advertised, although the route maps were smaller than all the rest of the maps. There was also something interesting about the sections on the Cascades service. Whoever edited the guidebook kept referring to the Cascades trains as "European-Designed." They didn't mention the particular gentleman's name, but I do know for a fact that he is directly from Spain (his name escapes me at the moment), designed a lot of Europe's high speed trains, and is now on the payroll of NJ Transit with the arduous task of spurcing up its drab fleets of buses and trains. This came out in the Times' Metro section back during the first week of January.
The new electronic departures board by the Amtrak information booth shows only Amtrak trains. The new electronic departures board in the upper level concourse by all the track gates shows both Amtrak and NJT trains.
lol !
lol !!
oh well did not load ...
copy and paste this address into the address bar and press enter, and it should show up:
http://community-2.webtv.net/hey-paul/MerylMeislersR142/media/captureD14.jpg
What the hell is that from?
That is from a poster thatr can be found in several subway stations...it is someone's work of art...making the interior of the R142 look like a fishtank. -Nick
yea it did not hold up when i trnasfered it ..
not like my photo webshots page .... lol
thankz ..
.....for we to POOP ON!!!
yea !
When the M-1s begin to be scrapped (Calverton siding) I would like to see some of their Ditch ligths find their way to some of the R/44s for night work on the Jamaica Bay Flats...
A beam burning its way on the Brighton line would also be acceptable.
avid
Would they fit on the r/46s and r/68s?
avid
How about on the R/42s and the slant 40s?
avid
In cooperation with the American Public Transportation Association, the Seashore Trolley Museum has developed and is hosting a new Web site, www.heritagetrolley.org. From the site's home page:
APTA Heritage Trolley Task Force Mission
The recent American quest for our roots, amid the context of our historical experience, has led to a revival of interest not only in the preservation of historic districts and urban neighborhoods, but also the growing interest in vintage streetcars. Further, as traditional neighborhoods in older cities become the location of choice for more American—singles, young couples, families and empty-nesters alike—there is an emerging a need to provide good transit service to these areas. The APTA Heritage Trolley Task Force was formed to promote the development of vintage/heritage trolley lines and modern streetcar lines, to foster information exchange among those planning or operating such lines, and to encourage reasonable technical and safety standards.
For more information, click on the "about hosts" page on www.heritagetrolley.org.
Does their mission include securing funding sources or is it just hot air? :-)
Not sure, Dave. It was just brought to my attention by Seashore's chairman. This was my first look at it as well, so I thought I'd share it with our fellow SubTalkers. I'll see what more I can find out.
Just spent a half hour on the site. A great resourse, and an indication that the industry is beginning to realize that the Museums are the starting point for heritage systems.
The Heritage site (old or old looking) plus "Light Rail Central" (new, at least post "PCC") will show you all the existing LRV/Trolleys that exist in the USA (old/new).
Thanks for the link Todd, I've added to my list of 70 odd mass transit sites (including steam, mfg. [e.g. Nova], bus companies, publishers [e.g. Railpace] etc.).
Mr rt__:^)
Last night was the first time I got to Opt. on the 7 line. No I was not in serives and I was not even on a pasager train, I was on a work Train. Me and my partner had a B to A trasfer. We were pushing a Cran and a Flal car all the was from 38 street Yard to Corona yard. To be fair to my partner I was Flaging him thought 4ave & 7ave untill Queensboro Plaza and he took over there. While on the MB a 10 car of R36wf from the 7 came over tose Brooklyn. They did not have any B division cars with them and no the Signal don't have two trip drivices on them. Beside the first two cars were R36's. The train was mostly the Cars from the Subway Seriese (6 out of the 10). Well anway when we got the Queesbora Plaza we change postion becouse he A Fivision Quilfed. Well let just say it was fun being on the 7 line even though it was not in serivec. But on my was back to Time Squ. the T/O on the 7 saw me and ask if I wanted to Opt. I was temted but I did not. I was afraid, not knowing how the RedBird handle. He said next time I see him he will lets me opt.
Robert
If you've EVER operated a 32, it's the same grab as a 'boid ... a throwback to days when all SMEE's were born equal ... aside from the extra width, same ride ... you could have EASILY done it if you were familiar with the 32's ... go for it next time. Only reason I could handle a 32 was because of prior A division experience without authorization, but I won't talk about it. Heh.
I might take him up next time and I would not post it.
Robert
Of COURSE not ... but seriously, if you've done 32's, it's the SAME THING in da cab ... you CAN do it ... and the smaller size of the car makes you SLOWER just on the basis of the size difference ... you CAN'T screw up.
Thou shalt not snitch. Enjoy the ride, it's actually FUN running in different territory ... best thrill I got was a couple of CC runs on penalty ... different is good now and then. :)
Sure he can. The brakes on the Redbirds, especially those at Corona, are NOT quite like those on the 32s. Many times on the 7, I've pulled 80# entering a level straight station and hoped that the train would stop before the platform did.
Things have changed then ... oh yeah, those dumbass shoes ... I keep forgetting about that ... in my day, REAL trains wore steel. Literally. :)
C'mon, you can tell us. It's not like you work there anymore.
Heh. I *have* ... don't wanna wear out "I took a train once, but they made me put it back" ... hey, I was jail bait then. :)
oh, yeah i remember you mentioned that. didn't know that was an IRT you took.
Saturday morning, IRT Broadway local #1 train from 242 to just north of 191 to an emergency exit while the cop cars climbed the hill from under the el to up above. :)
I don't remember a THING! Heh. And yes, there WERE geese on board who were treated to a Broadway Thru Exp trainride on a Saturday. Do I regret it? Not at the time, but age proves how DAMNED lucky I was along with three other kids to have escaped clean and past the statute of limitations. I did *NOT* operate the train though I knew how.
Fast by the way ... it wasn't until SCHOOL CAR that I even began to appreciate the RISK we put our geese through. Kids don't think. Glad I *did* my time with the TA or I would never have appreciated what we DID as kids ... and yes, I'm "reformed" ... I never steal traction without a previous wink and nod from a supervisory type who knows how really BAD my memory of certain events can be for $20. Heh.
And I got a set of 32's reserved for you to operate tomorrow night for the Rockaway Park run out of B'Way East NY! ;-D
All it takes is $1.50 and a dream! Ha!
Dang! And here we'll be paying off the LAST trip for the next few months. And they won't be headed to Branford anytime soon. :)
They're easy though. Maybe I'll sneak on the next Bombardier delivery and try to tell the crew that I'm on board for acceptance testing. Heh.
Robert, you need more practice on 6688.
Mr rt__:^)
I would love to get my hand on 6688. I was ther when it first got up there. My famly stoped going right begore you put the poll up so I never got to ride it. I did get to opt. the R9 those.I have to make some time to get up there this summer. The trip is going to be longer for me after I move to NJ.
Robert
We await your arrival. With or without a pole, 6688 is still a great car....
-Stef
Lastnight while talking to the T/O from my post from today, he told me that one train of R62's will be on the 7 line within the next two weeks. He got the info from the line Superanedent. So get you Camira ready.
Robert
Very interesting. I guess the TA is going to start the scrapping of WF R-33's soon.
Is that so? That's great news! I assume you mean R62A's.
:-) Andrew
Yes. I do get them mixed up.
Robert
The maintenance folks at Corona Shop are going to have a good time...
Changing over, that is. When the R33 and R36 cars are gone, maintenance will be simpler across the system.
What about putting double trip-cocks on some of them for CIY moves, or will they simply couple them to R33's ?
Yes yes yes!!!
Now THIS I HAVE TO SEE Fear not WORLDS FAIR BLUE BIRDS!!!!!!!!!
9321 has been scrapped. 9478-9523 were on the Pelham Line but they're scrap as well. 9544/5, 9548/9, 9552-9557 were on the 7 but they've headed to scrap also. 9307-9320, 9322-9345, 9346-9477, 9526-9539, 9542/3, 9546/7, 9550/1, 9558-9769 are currently on the 7 line now. I guess I figure that not many cars have headed to scrap on this line, now that within the next few weeks some may be taken off of the road to be headed there.
What cars are headed here? I've heard numerous rumors. I assume cars from the Pelham Line-R62As.
#9370 Flushing Local
hey robert,
where's my metrocard? just kidding......but actually i am waiting for your response..........rem731@AOL.COM
we heard this before .........
..lol ...!!
Yes, we certainly have. But thats not cool cuz it's not like we've heard a lot about the R142s being junk because of no railfan window. :p -Nick
Waddayah want? Railfan windows or reliable transport?
U can have 2 ............both .........
Foamer glass of course! We don't REALLY need to GET there ... at least until we run outta film. :)
And the R142s do have a railfan window, even if you don't get a great view out the front. But let's be thankful that the view out the front doesn't look like something this:
For all the great things about Montreal's subway, here's one thing that's not so great about it!
I agree!
What great things about the Montreal "Metro"?
What don't you like about the Montreal Metro?
I would think that the Montreal Metro is quieter because it runs on rubber tires. Lines are color coded. And of course, they made the stations distinctive looking. And the rolling stock isn't terrible, except for that solid windowless wall that separates the cab from the passenger areas. But a lot of cities have that same problem. London, Bangkok, Singapore, Sao Paulo -- all have subway cars with transverse cabs that permit absolutely no seeing out the front of the train. Heck, if the little window on the R62 cab doors wasn't there, we would have that problem too. There would probably be a lot of R62-bashing on this message board.
If you like fancy schmancy artistic stations, Montreal is for you. If you like the smell of burnt rubber from the tires, Montreal is for you. If you enjoy the loud windy sound made when the trains pick up speed, Montreal is for you. If you don't mind being a railfan in a system that does not go outdoors, Montreal is for you.
Of course, it's mostly a matter of opinion. A few months ago there was a long and contraversial thread regarding Montreal vs. Toronto, so I really don't want to start that again.But I will say that if you never left New York and visited Montreal for the first time, you would probably be impressed and awed by the station architecture and "efficiency" of the sysytem. Personally, I think that the interior of the cars are ugly, and the seating is minimal and cramped. Also, I'm not sure of the exact gauge, but they seem more narrow than IRT cars.
Now, Toronto: Full BMT/IND size cars, ample seating, brightly lit advertising racks throughout each car, interesting routing under ground, over ground, across bridges, and through highway medians. The stations, though not "art galleries", are clean, brightly lit, and efficient. Also, the last time I was there you were able to look out of the front of any kind of equipment running. And, I almost forgot, the multitude of "fare control" transfer points between the subway and buses/streetcars outside the downtown core. Sure, in Montreal there are free transfers between the Metro and the buses, but a paper transfer is always required. In Toronto, at many stations you go straight from the subway and onto the back door of a bus without missing a beat (and vice versa).
So, that is why Montreal doesn't impress me that much.
Since I'm from Toronto, the Yonge/University/Spadina subway line once operated Gloucester (similar to the IRT Redbirds) and they we're very interesting. I still wished that they have the Redbird scheme, but the Gloucesters were steel cars and paint was necessary to prevent rusting.
However, they could of made their stations a lot more interesting in terms of design, like the ones in NYC, especially the ones featured in the Nassau St. line.
Also, I wished that Toronto could slightly lengthen their Subway platform to accomodate 7 or 8 car trains (currently 6 cars) for capacity purposes.
This time of year though, Montreal's subway is a delight. Go anywhere in the city and in many places, never hit the street, and the cold. Might not be the best railfan experience unless you have a buddy or two on duty that'll let you ride up front, but it's STILL a nice system if your objective is getting somewhere.
Also you could understand the people in Toronto!!!
Eh?:-)
IIRC Montreal's Metro uses standard gauge track and the cars are IRT width. Plus each and every station (at least on the original portions) has side platforms.
I've ridden the Montreal Metro several times. I like it a great deal, but I can state without reservation that it is NOT quieter than a steel-wheel system.
David
Then what was the point in using rubber tires?
Good question. As far as I've been able to tell, Montreal did it because...Paris did it! Remember, this is Quebec we're talking about, where the people have (or did at one point) close ties to France.
David
Rubber tires eliminated the steel trackage and provided a higher level of shock absorbance not available in current trainsets. My R142s have an advanced air spring system....being chewed up by antique rails....over thirty years later. CI Peter
>>> Rubber tires eliminated the steel trackage <<<
Not really. Rubber tire systems have steel wheels and tracks to keep the train running when (not if) a tire blows out. Rubber tired trains were developed in the late ‘50s and early ‘60s by the Michelin Company (such altruistic people), and tended to appear only in France and places that looked to France for engineering expertise and/or economic aid. At that time they were quieter and smoother than steel wheel subways (think R-10, Lo Vs), but more expensive because of the frequent tire changes. Since that time there have been great strides in reducing the noise and smoothing the ride of steel wheel subways, so the comfort advantage of rubber tires has disappeared.
Tom
Try our subways....I'm hearing knocking from the truck kingpins of my new R142s on the #2. I'd like to know how often the rubber tires have to be changed. A lot has taken place in 30 years...but not the S turns that should have been straightened out which Bombardier claimed the R142s could handle. CI Peter
Funny thing about Paris's Metro. Only five of their 14 lines use rubber tires, including the new automated 14/Meteor Line. The rest are steel-wheeled. I like steel-wheel trains better. Don't have to woory about flat tires. If Montreal ever builds a new Metro line, they should go with steel wheels. And maybe they can call it the 3 line and use red for its color. Montreal has a 1 (green), a 2 (orange), a 4 (yellow) and a 5 (blue), but no 3 (red). Why is that? Montreal had other proposed lines, all with numbers higher than 3 and colors other than red.
From the website www.metrodemontreal.com:
Line 3 of the metro, which was to include 15 stations and use the CN tracks, including the train tunnel under Mount Royal, was never constructed. Converting the line for use with the metro would have required rolling stock with steel wheels instead of tires, and would have gone outside the limits of the city of Montreal.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You do have to worry about flat steel wheels. That's why you buy truing machines and keep spare wheels handy.
>>> I can state without reservation that it is NOT quieter than a steel-wheel system. <<<
That may be true of the present day steel wheel systems, but it was not the case when the Montreal Metro opened in the ‘60s. I rode it while visiting the Expo in ‘67 and there was a noticeable difference between it and the NYC subway of that day.
Tom
Old Tom: do you remember that many windows were replaced with perforated stainless steel??? Repeated air conditioner failures and the hazard of heat indused phosgene gas prompted the mods....were those trains hot and sweaty!!!! CI Peter
>>> do you remember that many windows were replaced with perforated stainless steel??? <<<
I only visited Montreal once in 1967 and did not notice any perforated stainless steel then. I do not know about any modifications that have been made since then.
Tom
The mod was made during Expo 67. I was there when DeGaulle visited the French Pavillion and the elevator got stuck and its windows clouded up with human breath. Vichy Frogs were tossing about hand grenades and I learned how to ask for grapefruit juice: pimplemoose.
They retrofitted the windows on the doors at the ends of the cars with a stainless steel mesh and chopped holes and installed large fans in the ceiling/roof of the cars because the previous ventilation system didn't change the air inside the cars frequently enough.
-Robert King
Wrong!!! AC units were leaking Freon and there was a fear that heat would convert the freon to Phosgene gas. I was there!!! CI Peter
Ummm... Montreal Metro cars aren't and never were air conditioned. It's something I and many other people complained about frequently in the 20 years I lived there. Don't ever ride the Metro in the summer!!
In 1967, the Montreal cars were air conditioned and it was a matter of public complaint on the English speaking TV news about how uncomfortable the cars were after AC leaks were discovered and systems shut down over the fear that leaking freon would produce phosgene gas. I was twelve years old and amazed how clean and quiet the system was...no grafitti, no trash, you could sit anywhere in a station and read all day undisturbed, a good place to be. Nearly thirty five years later, I'm a car inspector silently sitting in my Redbird...in tears. Everything is destroyed, there is not one piece of glass left unmarked (some get cracked,) the stations ARE ALWAYS FILTY, grafitti is everywhere, even the tunnel signals are vandalized. This is 'Planet of the Apes,' this is 'Escape from New York,' this is 'Omega Man.' Where are you my President, where are you and when will we receive the 'call to arms?" Where are you Charleton Heston?
Could these air-conditioned cars be the Expo '67 cars we're talking about here, and not the Montreal Metro cars? There was talk of sending the Expo '67 cars to Staten Island after the Expo, but it never happened and the R-44s (MUE-2s) were ordered instead (after the city bought the line from the B&O).
David
>>> Could these air-conditioned cars be the Expo '67 cars we're talking about here <<<
What are Expo ‘67 cars? I do not remember seeing any railcars at Expo ‘67, and the trains that went to the site were Montreal Metro rubber tired trains which would not be suitable for use on Staten Island.
Tom
I've read about them, but have never seen a picture. It's possible that the source I read (a while ago, granted) was incorrect.
David
Eric Oszustowicz, NYD-ERA's former Program Committee chairman, has loaned me a Steve Zabel photo of an Expo '67 car. With Eric's permission, I have forwarded a JPG of the photo to David Pirmann for inclusion in the archives.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
There was a heavy rail line at Expo 67 known as the Expo Express which ran between the city pier and LaRonde. It was a free (yes, FREE) limited-stop service with stops at Habitat '67 (one direction only, but no train I ever rode on stopped there), Ile St. Helene, Ile Notre Dame, and LaRonde. After the fair closed and reopened as Man and His World the following year, the line was cut back to Ile St. Helene or Ile Notre Dame (don't remember which was the westernmost) and LaRonde, with a station added before LaRonde and the Jacques Cartier Bridge.
The cars were 3-car units with 3 sets of double doors per side, with slanted ends on the outer ends of each set. The slanted ends were more similar to those on Chicago's 2000-series cars than the slant R-40s. 6-car trains was the norm.
I wish I could say the Metro was still like that. Last time I was there (last year) I found that the system was in really bad shape. There is scratchitti all over the windows, especially on the Green Line. I remember in particular Charlevoix station on the Green Line was so full of grafitti that one could barely tell the colour of the walls. Many of the trains of the same model as pictured earlier in the thread are in poor condition and are breaking down often and causing major delays.
I guess it's just a sign of the decline that city is in. If the Quebec government would start putting money into the system instead of ridiculous things like language police or separation from Canada the Metro would be much better off!!
Language police??? Stinkin frogs up there spoke 'old French' like their Vichy masters. I remember driving up there and asking a postman for directions. The guy with his Frenchy moustache looks at me and thinks 'Ahhhmerikan.' Smuck...tries to speak to me in French so i hit him with GI German. I get the driving directions...we look at eachother and smile. The Karma wheel turns...and i get R142 new tech from Bombardier. CI Peter
"Kwest Kwee sessed noodly" also gets English out of them. :)
I remember when the steel mesh was installed in place of door windows. Originally the trains didn't have any steel mesh. Other details I can recall are the doors starting to open just before the train came to a full stop and the single "ding" coming from the cab after the doors had closed. London's Underground trains did the same thing in 1978. Something to do with indication, I'm sure.
.........MAN DOES THAT SUX............!!!!!
this really does SUX ...look how much room that guy has inside his transverse cab !! What in the hell ???
NO LOL HERE !! ...........UGH !
this really does SUX ...look how much room that guy has inside his transverse cab !! What in the hell ???
What's even worse is that he's not even really needed. From what I understand, the whole system is on automatic train control and the motorman is there as a manual backup. I could be wrong, however...it's been about 18 years since I last rode the Métro.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
oh yea ... just like marta in atlanta san farnciscos BART ....
All he does is the doors and announcements on the Green Line, but some don't do the latter and they don't even need to get up to do the doors.
Yeah, but it's a nice *BIG* foamy window if you're inside the wall. And there's a jumpseat over on the left side that's available.
is that system opto as well .........???
Yes indeed ...
Yes, except for one of the lines that has a long run under the river and there is a driver in the rear cab as well. The idea behind having two drivers on that line (can't remember which one) is that emergency train evacuations under the St. Lawrence river will go smoother with two on the train crew instead of just one, if the need to evacuate ever arises.
-Robert King
so one acts a conductor ??
No, the driver in the rear cab doesn't do anything until the train reaches the end of the line and his end becomes the forward facing end. The drivers in the rear of the train are just there to help out in case something goes wrong on that line because of that long run under the St. Lawrence river.
-Robert King
That would be the Yellow, or #4 line, the one with the stop at Ile St. Helene. I remember counting 93 fluorescent lights between that stop and the transfer station from the other two original lines.
If that photo made you say, "UGH!", then this next one's gonna make you say, "UUUUUGGGGGGGHHHH!!!"
Yes, London, the world's oldest subway system has trains that make it impossible to see out the front unless you're Superman. What's worse is that while Montreal's Metro is entirely underground, the London Underground has a lot of above-ground stations. Of course, the padded seats in London's trains are a nice touch, but we'd never be able to have them in New York.
Is that the new train on the Jubilee line? I've ridden them - they have a red button on both inside and outside of cars. When the train comes to a stop you press the button to make the doors open.
Refurbished 1973 stock on the Picadilly line, according to Dave's caption...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The new trains on the Jubilee Line look very similar on the interior, though. The main difference is the color scheme; the Jubilee trains have yellow/turquoise as opposed to red/blue interiors.
Also, the AC motors on the Jubilee trains have a very distinctive sound, and the automated announcement voice sounds suspiciously like Mary Poppins.
-- David
Chicago, IL
well ! U made my point well ............lol !!
like this car for exampe.
Great photo of the interior of a London "Tube" train.
#3 West End Jeff
It sure is. Dave sure did take some good photos of the London tube and sub-surface trains. BTW, the sub-surface trains, also have no railfan window as you can see here:
The sub-surface trains look to be a little closer to what we have in New York, except for the padded seats and the inability to look out the front of the trains.
Those late 1970s district line trains with the single leaf doors... hopefully London Underground will have something done about that interior when they get overhauled. That said, they are the most comfortable subsurface stock running there.
-Robert King
I don't remember seeing any trains with single-leaf doors on the District Line in 1978. 1920s-vintage rolling stock, yes. They had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, too; I thought I was on a train of R-1/9s.
The single leaf door trains hadn't arrived yet (or were close to) in 1978 - that's why you didn't see them. If you look closely at the picture up one or two posts, you can see the single leaf doors (examine the window in the door).
-Robert King
Here's a picture which clearly shows the single leaf doors used on the District line D type rolling stock:
-Robert King
Very interesting. I still don't remember seeing anything like that.
As I recall, even modern London rolling stock (I was last there in 1988) had spur-cut bull-and-pinion gears. That noise brought back some memories!
On the deep tube lines, the continuous cast-iron tubes and the tight car clearances created another phenomenon: You could hear the sound of a train coming (and get a blast of cold air) long before you saw the beams of light streaming through the tunnel---the train was still quite a distance away. I suppose this was useful for people working on the tracks. If you fell on a London Track, however, you couldn't lie down in a groove between the rails---London uses a FOURTH rail, as a common ground return, inbetween the running rails. (It make the tracks look like Lionel track! Or perhaps Gargraves.)
When I was on the District/Metropolitan/Circle Lines, I sometimes felt like I was on the Brighton Line, with all of those open cuts.
You can hide, at least in the tube stations, underneath(!) the fourth rail in the pit provided.
-Robert King
The trick is to actually get down there without getting fried... Anybody remember that childrens' game "Operation" where you had to pick out the little plastic bones with metal tweezers without touching the sides, or else you'd get zapped? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The District Line threw me for a loop at first, because I didn't realize there were in fact cut-and-cover Underground lines in addition to the deep bore ones.
I didn't have any problem with the left-handed operation.
I like the padded seats, but I don't care for the lack of a railfan window.
#3 West End Jeff
the # 7 line WHIPPED the r-142s !! They could not handle iit !!
I now that we heard it before, but lets just see if it happen. I just posed what I heard.
Robert
yea hope they wait until this fall ...
i tbelieve the the redbirds should make thier last gol lin stand on the # 7 line ..
OH YEA !!
I've been told that the barn at Corona has about 12 R-62 blueprints on the walls in the work area. It's not known if these were put up recently, are still there from when the R-62's did a brief test run on the 7 line, or are required to be there because Corona is an "A" division barn.
If 62's do come to the 7, I wonder which ones they'll use? I think it would be easy to take some 5-car families from the 4 and 6, and simply add a single-car unit to them to make an 11 car train. But it's not likely that the TA will mix R-62's and R-62 A's. I guess we'll all have to be patient to wait and see what, if anything, happens.
Yes the "blueprints" for the R62a are in Corona Barn. Ive seen them up close and personal. Thats why Im convinced that is what is going to end up there.........
Isn't that what they're called? "Blueprints"?
Years ago when you needed to make a copy of a large drawing it came out in blue & white, a BLUE print/copy.
Mr rt__:^)
When a standard drawing is done on tranparent vellum or equal, the drafter uses dark pencil or ink to draw. A sensitized yellow paper is used to make the prints by placing the drawing on top and passing it through a special light. The yellow paper has everything burned off of it except where the pencil lines were so the drafter's image remains. Then the sheet is passed through an ammonia section and turns the yellow lines to blue. Actually, we should call them "white-prints" since they are more white than blue. The only blue is the image lines, dimensions, notes, and title and border area.
This takes me back to the 70's when I was on the drawing board.
Chuck Greene
Took a drafting class at one of those tilted tables. Had my compus, protractor, pencils & sand paper to keep the pencil sharp. Every once in a while i'll still turn the pencil to keep it sharp.
Mr rt__:^)
Hey, Thurston:
Hopefully, no more of that for me. I'm running 3-D Modeling
and we print everything on a printer 11x17. I'll never go back to the board.
Chuck Greene
I use Autodesk v. 3
that sint bad at all.. I love architecture..
Mike
I use Solid Works for mechanical stuff and it's awesome. Good luck with your work!
Chuck Greene
I remember doing that! (7th grade shop class, mid 1970's). I had a straightedge and triangle. 2 pointsoff anytime I drew an intersecion and let any line "go over" by as much as 0.5 mm.
That's why we had those little erasing shields so you could get down and carefully erase all of your overuns (boo-boos). Now , on the computer, with Auto-Cad and Solid Modeling sketches, you can just trim your lines off! Whoops, I guess we'd better end this off topic
thread!
Chuck Greene
Eraser shields ... forgot about those ... bet I still have one somewhere.
Mr rt__:^)
Don't forget your T square.:-)
Yes, thank you! And a protractor!
And it wsn't a ruler; it was an engineering scale.
Right!
I didn't use a T-square, we had boards with a straightedge built in that would slide along it. Mine was one of the few in which it wasn't broken off.
The 4 has R62s, not R62As. All R62s operate on the 4 line.
The 7 will be getting R62As from the 1 and 3 lines. The R62As on the 6 are going to the 1. 1670 and 1770 and their respective families are among the cars that used to have Pelham markers but are now carrying VC markers. I saw 1835 on the 3 with Pelham markers.
Now this is set in stone aprox 2 weeks from now ??.....
also by what order on paper somewhere ??
Salaam,
I am not the one who reported that info, but the subtalkers who have received their information from reliable sources on the TA. My guess is nothing is ever set in stone, and times are approximate. Two weeks is only the first train, you won't see a real turnover until later this spring, probably sometime in May. -Nick
hope not too many of them until the fall i wanted to shoot mostl #7 redbirds this summer !!
hope not too many of them until the fall i wanted to shoot all #7 redbirds this summer !!
This is nitpicking a bit so I don't mean to sounds like I'm adament about this.
What irks me about the subway maps is that there are inconsistencies with how some diamond trains are regarded. To me, it should mean that a diamond train is different from the main (circle) route concurrently. Examples: <6> trains run at the same time as the (6) on weekdays, their northern terminal during those times are different and one is express while the other is local in the Bronx. Same cases can be made for the 7 and Q lines. They deserve the distinction because it matters what train you are on in certain areas. On the other side are the trains that are designated as diamonds only because their routes are extended or different, but ALL trains during that time run the same route. Examples.... extended to Bay Parkway and to Bedford Park Blvd. During these times....do any M or B trains turn at 9th ave or 145 st, respectively? I don't think so, but if I'm wrong, correct me. All that needs to be explained is that during rush hours these trains are extended to whatever station. No need to change the signs to diamonds. Do the B, M, and 4 trains change their rollsigns to diamonds during rush hour?
=)
I apologize for the accidental bold...obviously where the bold starts should be Diamond-B
=)
You want the 5 to Dyre Ave. to be designated with a diamond on the roll sign so that you know whether it makes all local stops to 180th or skips them (in case you want to get out there). Agreed, you don't need a diamond for the B or M on the roll sign (I don't remember if there ever is one but I think not, actually).
As for the subway maps, there needs to be some kind of warning that you can't always expect an M to go out to Bay Parkway or a B to go all the way to Bedford Park Blvd. I guess the TA uses a diamond because that is their symbol for trains that only run in peak periods.
They could use a symbol other than a diamond on the maps for that purpose, but maybe that would be more confusing than using the diamond in two different yet related ways.
It's never personally confused me. When I see a diamond, either on the map or on a roll sign, I am alerted that I have to be careful because this train may not always go to every place it sometimes goes to.
yea they do change their signs. I have seen Diamond As too. In my opinion they should change the E to 179 as a Diamond. because when u think about the meaning of diamond, it means RUSH HOURS ONLY. and the E only goes to 179 rush hour. also MAKE THEM EXPRESS DAMMIT. LOL I THINK THEY DID ALREADY
The E going to 179 sometimes has got to confuse people. How has it been working so far?
Diamonds are originally supposed to mean rush only, but the TA is inconsistant by using a diamond Q for the Brighton Exp. They should have used a different letter for it.
The legend on the current "The Map" says, Special Rush Hour or Express Service.
Then they are really incosistant because the A,E,F,etc aren't diamonds, yet they are expresses.
I believe that thye man "special" to also modify "express services." (Remember the associated law of muiltiplication over addition?)
It means Special Rush Hour OR Special Express services. For example, if a line has an express service at some times and not others, then it gets a diamond. If it is always express, then it doesn't.
But that still doesn't explain the diamond Q, which was my main concern.
I can't explain it. I think it deserves its own name.
I don't understand why they don't just call the diamond Q another route letter.
I am not aware of the B or M lines using diamond symbols during rush hours.
--Mark
Before we got the new rollsigns some end signs on R-68(a?)s had the diamond B, but they were never used.
If you really want to be consistent, the 1 to New Lots should be a diamond train. The 4 to Utica should be a diamond. Only the 4 to New Lots should be a circle, and the map should show both the 1 and 4 to New Lots. This would also clear up the dotted line portion of the G. Diamond G to COurt Sq. Circle G to Continental late nights.
"1 to New Lots should be a diamond train. The 4 to Utica should be a diamond" I dont understand this. Why???
Doesn't the 1 run more than just rush hours to New Lots, Why would it be a diamond?
The thread was talking about having two "Q" trains, a diamond and a circle. The Diamond Q runs more than just rush hour, it runs daytime. Morning to night, but not overnight/"late night." According to that logic, the 1 to New Lots, which opperates daytime--morning to night--but not "late night," should be the diamond, with the late night 1 to Chambers being the circle. (this is also consistent with the circle 5 not going into Brooklyn, but the diamond 5 going to Flatbush Ave.) And, the 4 only terminates at Utica when there's a diamond 1, so it would be a diamond 4. The late night 4 service is the only 4 to New lots, which should be on the map, but isn't. When they put it on the map, they can give it a circle. Which is what they give the G to Continental. But they show it on the map as a dotted line. Why not just put the late night G on as a circle, with the diamond G going to Court Sq. Clearer?
No, totally missing the point. This has to do with trains running on different routes at the SAME time.
1 and 4 do not need diamonds because there are no 1's to chambers AND 1 to new Lots running simultaneously. Same with 4 to Utica and New Lots. They do not run simultaneously. The two Q's, 7's, and 6's run concurrently, thus needing something to differentiate them.
=)
All I was trying to do was suggest that things be consistent, even if things aren't always clear. All 5s go to Flatbush, right? There are never circle 5s and diamond 5s at the same time, am I right? Same with M to Bay Parkway. Same with diamond Bs to the Bronx. I do feel like making some rush hour 7s 11s could be just as confusing: skip-stop and rush-hour express only are confusing at first. I worked in Williamsburg/Bushwick for two years. None of my customers could get the hang of J service sometimes stopping at Hewes St, and sometimes not. And that's the J, not a diamond version of the M.
A few #5 trains operate to and/or from New Lots Avenue and Utica Avenue.
The diamond 5 is supposed to represent thru-expresses, which are the trains to/from the White Plains Road branch (as opposed to the Dyre Avenue branch). It's been gotten wrong so often by so many train crews that the meaning has been blurred if not lost.
David
All rush hour 5's run express in the peak direction. There's no need to waste a diamond on the 5 express. Should the rush hour variants on the 1 (skip-stop pre-9/11), 4 (138 bypass), D (Bronx express), and J (skip-stop) also use diamonds?
As on other lines, the 5 should reserve the diamond to distinguish between two services that run at the same time. Specifically, circles should run to Dyre (at all times) and diamonds should run to 238 (rush hours). Whether the train runs local or express is solely a function of time of the day (and day of the week).
So does that mean the Z should be a diamond because it's rush hour only. This is getting more confusing the more I read this thread!
No. The Z and the 9 (when it ran) are skip-stop trains pairing with the J and 1 respectively. They hop-scotch over each other, rather than a classic express/local situation. Why they rate separate designations is beyond me. Perhaps skip-stop should have "triangle" designations, or some such thing. We would thus have the circle J and the triangle J. The diamonds are express versions of the circles, which continue to run local at the same time. This applies to the 5 on the WPR line, the 6, the 7 and the Q. Back in the 1970's, it could have been applied to the F in Brooklyn as well had the notation existed then, with the CI bound expresses designated as the diamond F.
Wow, that confused the s*** out of me. But yes I know what you are saying, they are not consistant.
Not quite. The 1 runs to New Lots all times except late nights. The Q express doesn't run late evenings or weekends. That's a big difference.
There's no reason to sign a train with a diamond except to distinguish it from other trains that run at the same time. Every late night 1 terminates at Chambers. A diamond on the sign doesn't give any new information.
There's also no reason to sign a train with a diamond just because it terminates a few stops early or is extended by a few stops. If, during the day, the 1 train you're on terminates at Chambers (yes, there are a few daytime 1's that terminate at Chambers), just get off and wait for the next one. Diamonds are only necessary for trains that might lead circle-seekers astray, by running express or by using a different branch.
The map messes up this elegant system by using diamonds also for special rush hour services (in addition to, e.g., the Q, 6, and 7, whose diamond versions run middays as well).
They do not. And there is no diamond Z, even though it's a rush hour only service, the only exclusive rush hour line left in the system.
I agree 100%. In fact, I'll take it a step further: there's no need to use a diamond to indicate a simple route extension, even if some rush hour trains don't operate over the extension, since anyone on a train that doesn't can get off at the last stop and wait for the next train to continue. Diamonds should only be used where (a) both the diamond and the circle run at the same time, and (b) the diamond doesn't make all of the circle's stops, either because the diamond runs express or because the diamond diverges (but not because the diamond simply terminates early).
The TA, in fact, has two systems of diamonds in use. One appears on timetables and (usually) train signs; the other appears on the map. The former is basically what I advocate above, with the lone exception of the rush hour 5, which should carry a circle to Dyre and a diamond to 238 (every peak direction rush hour 5 runs express in the Bronx, just as every peak direction rush hour 4 bypasses 138; there's no need for a diamond in either case) and, arguably, the E to 179. The latter is an ambiguous jumble of the above and generic rush hour service.
I have actually seen an R62 on the 4 a couple of times this past week mid-train that happened to have its route marker left on diamond 4. I haven't actually seen a 4 display a diamond in service though. The diamond 4 makes sense on the map for clarity's sake, but it seems like such a waste that they even bothered to use a space on the sign for a service that only skips one stop!!!
As you might guess from my handle, I'm on the diamond 5 just about every day. It would make more sense if they left Dyre trains a circle and used diamonds only on trains to 238th, which is a true rush hour only service. Better yet, use a new number for it, which I understand might happen as the 5 fleet gains newer cars.
#5 fleet is gaining newer cars. Another barge sailed down the Hudson Friday. CI Peter
Keeping the Crowds and the Complainers Moving
"First, [Warsh] is a self-described, lifelong 'foamer,' the kind of overinformed train fanatic who almost foams at the mouth when talking about the romance of the rails."
> lifelong 'foamer,' the kind of overinformed train fanatic
> who almost foams at the mouth
Does the Times denigrate any other hobby as regularly and dare I say viciously as railfanning?
I'm surprised Randy Kennedy used that description ... does he think that all of us here at Subtalk, some of whom have been profiled by him in other articles, are also foamers?
--Mark
I think Randy Kennedy might mean well but I don't think that he himself is a railfan. I think he's just trying to work his way up the ranks of reporter jobs at the Times and the transit beat is where he's at right now... Disclaimer: I've talked to him many times and I think he's a nice guy but he'll always be an outsider to the railfan culture.
We have a culture?
:0)
Some of us. ;-)
We have a culture?
"Subcultue" would be the proper term ;)
Yeah. A throat culture.
The doctor says the results should be ready on Monday.
Maybe Randy Kennedy's boss had more to do with that placement of the tern than the author of the piece. Don't forget, Kennedy is merely an employee of a giant mega-corporation...
BMTman
Yes, but he says Warsh is a "self-described lifelong foamer".
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, that's what it says but I know *I*'ve been misquoted in the New York Times before. I just don't believe Mr. Warsh would use that word to describe himself.
Yeah, that's what it says but I know *I*'ve been misquoted in the New York Times before. I just don't believe Mr. Warsh would use that word to describe himself.
I don't know Warsh at all, but it seems to me entirely plausible that he said it in a longer explanation of his interest in rail.
I am *quite sure* that Kennedy wouldn't have written "self-described" if Warsh didn't say it. They're not perfect, but NYT reporters are usually pretty good about these things.
And frankly, guys, we talk about "foamers" all the time here. Why not let some of the esoteric lingo out into public use?
Curious to know the details of you being misquoted. Was it actually different words than what you said, or was it taking a small piece of a longer sentence out of context? The latter is far, far more common than the former (and may be the case here).
And frankly, guys, we talk about "foamers" all the time here. Why not let some of the esoteric lingo out into public use?
Because public use of the term has often been used to describe "people in the hobby" who break the law (Darius McCollum comes to mind) or who get in the way of TA operations. It is not complimentary.
--Mark
I would say I've been misquoted both using slightly different words than I said, since I don't think that at any time that I've talked to a reporter that the conversation was recorded for later playback, and most definitely taking a small piece of a large conversation and using it out of context. I remember thinking, after having read an article that I was quoted in (not necessarily written by Randy Kennedy, could have been anyone), that "I wish my words hadn't been twisted around like that."
Saying someone is "a self-described foamer" is not a direct quote and has no guarantee that those are the words that the speaker used. Consider if Mr. Warsh had said: "I'm really a huge railfan and this job allows me to use my lifelong avid interest in railroads." So now consider later on when Mr. Kennedy is writing his article. He's thinking: "He said he's a huge railfan.. avid interest... that's like the term I've heard before: foamer, so I'll just summarize what Mr Warsh said and use the words self-described foamer". I think that's probably a legitimate journalistic technique.
I don't know what happened, I'm just speculating. But if you think that there are those among us who don't mind being described with the word foamer, which to me has connotations of crazed, out of control, rabid, like a dog, far beyond enthusiast or hobbyist, I can't argue with that. Maybe some of us don't mind. I for one think there are more legitimate ways that people like us, and Mr. Warsh, even if he DID in fact use that word, could be described without those extra connotations.
I'm a member of the media, and I've been misquoted myself (though I've never misquoted myself :-) so I'm especially sensitive to it. When I worked for the American Meteorological Society, I gave many interviews on the profession, and in particular, on the small percentage (8% if you must know) of meteorologists who are in the media.
Most recently, the Boston Globe interviewed me for a piece on radio & TV meteorologists in Boston. I told the interviewer that "...weather forecasting is a combination of experience, training, scientific education, and intuition." He left out "scientific education." A critical part of my sentence.
You'll see one of the factors that leads up to this when you are interviewed in person for a print publication. Typically, the reporter has a small notebook in which s(he) scribbles key words, then pieces them back together in the office. If you are interviewed on tape for radio or TV, ensure that your sentences are short, crisp, and make one (and only one) point each. That way, it's harder for the editor (who is usually not the reporter who interviewed you, by the way), to jumble what you said.
To keep this on topic, here are two reports I've put together on:
The 100th anniversary of the Boston subway
The 90th anniversary of the New York subway
Hopefully, I didn't misquote anyone!
I'm a member of the media, and I've been misquoted myself (though I've never misquoted myself :-) so I'm especially sensitive to it.
Me too. 12 years as a magaazine reporter, writer, editor and article assignment guy. Not to mention I chronically edit, copyedit and proofread everything that passes me ... to the frequent annoyance of coworkers.
That said, I won't deny there are bad, lazy or sloppy journalists. But in this *particular* case, I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill, and a huge amount of bad attitude about the NY Times has emerged.
Given the variety of things Warsh has done, and the responsible position he's in, he knows perfectly well how interviews should be played, how reporters work and the impact of every single word. I have no reason to believe that he didn't use the word "foamer". Kennedy (or his editors) *had* to explain it, 'cause it's not common usage. If Warsh didn't want to be described as a 'self-describer "foamer" ' (note quotes correctly around only the one word), he *shouldn't have said it in the first place*.
I'll eat my words if the Times publishes a correction saying that Warsh didn't say it. And, if he complains, they would do so unless Kennedy had a recording to prove otherwise, or perhaps a reporter's notepad with the actual word on it.
End of testy rant. I still think it was a fine article. Warsh sounds eager, smart, energetic and devoted. God knows we ought to have more like him!
Saying someone is "a self-described foamer" is not a direct quote and has no guarantee that those are the words that the speaker used.
Plus, it was Kennedy who added, "...overinformed train fanatic who almost foams at the mouth..."
lifelong 'foamer,' the kind of overinformed train fanatic
who almost foams at the mouth
Does the Times denigrate any other hobby as regularly and dare I say viciously as railfanning?
It may not be the Times, but last week the Wall Street Journal had an article about plane spotters that sort of poked fun at them, making them seem like a rather quirky bunch.
Hmmm...
I have to admit I've laughed at people who know how to speak Klingon, so I guess its only fair if find myself in the crosshairs for the enthusiasm I give to my own interests.
Mark
You have to remember some of the editors of the Times have a very narrow viewpoint of what is and isn't gauche, both within the city and without. It's pretty much based on that old New Yorker cartoon, except that in their case, the size of the city itself south of 14th St. on the East Side and north of 96th St. on both sides of town, let alone the other boroughs, would shrink down to near nothingness like the rest of the nation does in the cartoon.
Higher-ups at the Times see the subway as a necessary evil at best and not something that anyone with refined tastes -- such as the people who read the New York Times -- would be very much into, so they see no problem in profiling railfans as a trifle excentric. Similarly, if you gave a Times editor a story on the 75,000 or so people who go to your average NASCAR race, odds are there would be a paragrpah or two of condesention in there as well.
You have to remember some of the editors of the Times have a very narrow viewpoint of what is and isn't gauche, both within the city and without. It's pretty much based on that old New Yorker cartoon, except that in their case, the size of the city itself south of 14th St. on the East Side and north of 96th St. on both sides of town, let alone the other boroughs, would shrink down to near nothingness like the rest of the nation does in the cartoon.
14th? True Times-people get a little nervous below 42nd. And the real hard-core ones don't even like the East Side.
Higher-ups at the Times see the subway as a necessary evil at best and not something that anyone with refined tastes -- such as the people who read the New York Times -- would be very much into, so they see no problem in profiling railfans as a trifle excentric.
More to the point, it's something they personally don't ride. Taking the subway rather than taxis or car services means they'd be in uncomfortably close proximity with us (ick!) Common People.
Similarly, if you gave a Times editor a story on the 75,000 or so people who go to your average NASCAR race, odds are there would be a paragrpah or two of condesention in there as well.
Times joke:
What has 149,985 legs* and 200,000 teeth?
The crowd at a NASCAR race.
* = you have to allow for the occasional amputee
OK, qualification on the 14th St./East Side thing -- there are some trendy places on Second Ave. and even in Alphabet City that the Times will explore, the same way Lewis and Clark mapped out the Northwest Passage 200 years ago. But that doesn't mean your typcial Timesian desk person would feel as at home over there as they would among the streets of Greewich Village (to hook up to another thread, it's the same thing with a place in the outerboroughs like Peter Lugar's -- It's fashionable enough to make the `A' list, and the trip to a not-so-hot section of Brooklyn can give the Times higher-ups and their target audience a sense of adventure akin to that of the 16th Century explorers departing for the New World after hearing about the land and the natives from Columbus' ship logs).
OK, qualification on the 14th St./East Side thing -- there are some trendy places on Second Ave. and even in Alphabet City that the Times will explore, the same way Lewis and Clark mapped out the Northwest Passage 200 years ago. But that doesn't mean your typcial Timesian desk person would feel as at home over there as they would among the streets of Greewich Village (to hook up to another thread, it's the same thing with a place in the outerboroughs like Peter Lugar's -- It's fashionable enough to make the `A' list, and the trip to a not-so-hot section of Brooklyn can give the Times higher-ups and their target audience a sense of adventure akin to that of the 16th Century explorers departing for the New World after hearing about the land and the natives from Columbus' ship logs).
You are correct, Times bigwigs might occasionally venture into the Terra Incognita of Downtown or Brooklyn if struck by a particularly adventurous whimsy. What you failed to mention, however, is that before leaving they update their wills and leave DNA specimens.
So long as their cell phones work in the wilds of Brooklyn or the mysterious east-of-First-Ave. area, I suppose they could have someone call them every 30 minutes or so just to make sure everything's all right.
Division of the city:
Downtown (below 14th street)
Midtown (to 57th street)
Upper East Side
Upper West Side
Harlem and the outer boroughs
What happened to the Line-by-Line history??? Also, there was a post a LONG time ago with the initial plans for Chrystie St line changes from about march 1965. Does anybody remember whar thread that was?/ Tony
if you're talking about the line by line guides on this site, go to the front page, and you'll find each of the lines grouped by original division - just go to each division's section and you'll see all the material I have organized by division.
I think I found the Chrystie Plan that you were looking for. I will e-mail it to you directly.
I tried to send you the Chrystie Plan via e-mail but your e-mail host rejected it.
Thanks guys!!!!! I realy appreciate that!!!! Tony Leong
Ahem, sorry guys, but I did find the line-by line history that I was looking for--it was on another site. Tony leong
I don't know if this has been discussed here before or not, but does anyone know why all of the plans for the Second Avenue Subway seem to be limited to two tracks? Where would the city be today if this kind of short-sighted thinking had been used instead of building the 4-track trunk lines that we now have?
The extra cost involved (when already undertaking such an expensive effort) seems minimal for the flexibility and capacity benefits that would result. Besides the basic increase in potential number of trains, better express (and, by association, local) service could be provided. There could be more potential for additional services to/from Queens and the 6th Ave. and Broadway lines via the 63rd St. line and tunnel. There could be enough capacity to run some sort of special GCT-to-downtown shuttle. Possible future extensions to the Bronx or Brooklyn should also be considered. At the downtown end of the line, connections could more easily be made to both the existing Nassau St. subway and a new line to Water St.
Are there any other reasons (beyond basic financial ones) to limit this project to 2 tracks? If they are going to get down there and build, why not build with the future in mind?
From what I have seen and heard, you can either go with limited stop with 2 tracks or nothing at all.
Are the plans to build it in such a way as to leave a provision for the future if 2 more tracks are ever needed/wanted?
I would guess no. That is taking into account of how long it will take to do a two track line and how much it would cost. The 6th Ave express track I would say was the last set of express track I would ever see in my lifetime (I'm 48).
Glad to know when Second Av' upper half opens in 10 years you'll be here for it.
I'm 30 and I consider mysely lucky if I ever even see the 2 track 2 Ave subway.
Well don't feel you're the Lone Ranger on this. I'm 61 and I have my doubts that I will ever see my Sea Beach on the Manhattan Bridge again.
I hope that you're wrong. Like you I would like to see the Sea Beach Line train ("N" train) on the Manhattan Bridge once again.
#3 West End Jeff
I was thinking about a way they could make a provision for a 4 track line. They could build the two track line with side platforms with false walls . Then when the time comes, they build two outer tracks and the original stations become express stations with two island platforms. This would be like an expanded verson of the Grand St provision.
That's a nice approach.
So the express would actually ride on the outside instead of the inside tracks?
No, when the outer tracks are made, the local will shift to the outer tracks. The outer tracks will have side platforms for the local, and the two island platform for express stations (which are the former locals when the original two tracks are built). Then 2nd Av will look like any normal 4 track line.
This way I suggest is justified becuase the current plan calls for the stations to be far apart, like an express only line. Infilling them with locals later shouldn't make the stations too close together. Downtown, where the stations are closer, they would all be express stations. Like the 6th Av line.
So how would platforms at local stations (Upper East Side, below 34th St, etc.) be constructed? That's why I think maybe the locals should travel on the original, inside tracks and when the line is upgraded to four tracks, express tracks can be added on the outside. Express stations would have side platforms with false walls (and become island platforms when upgraded) and local stops would have island platforms. That way the two express tracks can easily be added without too much major construction.
Here's a map I just drew showing what I proposed:
(lerft) Initial line (the red lines show the false wall, which would only be at the stations only, not in the tunnels)
(right) Four track service added later on
If two stations are close together originally, then they would eventually become two express stations next to each other.
So the local stations would be added later when the line is upgraded. Thanks for the graphic, it clears that up for me.
I don't think that would be a good idea. Either the future (local-express) line would have too many express stops or the initial phase (express stops only) would bypass large swaths of the areas it's supposed to be serving.
Why not build a two-track line along (say) the west half of 2nd Avenue, with island platforms at future express stations and wall platforms at future local stations? If/when express service is warranted, the line would be twinned under the east half of 2nd. (It would probably pay to complete the stations in the first phase, except for access to the not-yet-open east platforms.)
The cost is in the building, whether you use the extra trackways or not. The cost of doing 4 tracks instead of 2 is probably appreciable, tho' I don't know how much more.
The assumption is there will NEVER be enough money to build a four track line. Dumb shortsighted, corrupt come to mind. Of course the 'shot in the arm' in the present economic slump of such a pump priming expenditure would be incredibly helpful. Just a few B-2's less.
It's amazing how much this Osama thing is costing NY and the country. Yes we have to spend the money on defense and what we are doing in Afghanistan is totally necessary. But can you imagine what a waste of money it is. Just think of the money that could be used towards infastructure in this country or toowards the betterment of mankind if we didn't have to spend all this money defending ourselves against a bunch of idiots who decide they must attack us.
Amen to that...
Yes, but it wouldn't be spent on infrastructure or the betterment of mankind. No-one with any chance of being in power has the foresight to do that. It is why the two countries with the lowest transport expenditure in the civilised world are America and Britain. The French spend 6 times as much as the USA per passenger journey, the Germans 10 times as much. No American politician at present would consider such investment. It is the great flaw of monetarist economic policy.
The cost of building new underground subway lines in the city has reached between $300-400 million per mile. You are correct in that when you design in a size tunnel to hold 4 tracks you can save money, compared with adding extra tracks later; however, with transit capital budgets being strained as it is, the difference of a few billion in costs could make or break a project.
Another factor is this: New York has the largest subway system in the world in number of stations, and the second largest in track mileage, behind London, UK. If you add PATH, AirTrain and the new light rail system across the Hudson and consider that one network, then the New York region is number one in the world on all counts except ridership (Moscow carries an obscene number of people every day).
As a consequence, the amount of capital $$$ needed to maintain and rehab stations, tracks, and subway cars is much higher than at a brand new system with less than 100 route-miles on it (like Washington DC). The capital budget is $3 billion per year as it is, which has allowed things like completion of the 63rd St Connector, work on East Side Access, a complete rebuild of Stillwell Av, Jamaica Station and Atlantic Av, purchase of new subway cars at $1.4 million each, etc. etc.
I'd love to see a four track system built under Second Av. But I prefer a 2-track system over none at all, and we're the closest we've ever been to getting one.
I'd love to see a four track system built under Second Av. But I prefer a 2-track system over none at all, and we're the closest we've ever been to getting one.
I find it quite nearly obscene that they would spend all this money on a mere two track subway instead of a much more useful four-track line. Nonetheless, we'll take what we can get. The two-track system is tantalizingly close to fruition, and this is no time to fight an all-or-nothing battle.
If you can develop engineering methods that can accomplish it with less money, please proceed.
Tutor-Saliba claimed it could build Los Angeles' Red Line on $150 million per mile budget, and proceeded to screw it up royally. Everything had to be redone before the line could open. They made that claim to get the contract - but clearly couldn't actually build it with that budget.
I'd love to see a four track system built under Second Av. But I prefer a 2-track system over none at all, and we're the closest we've ever been to getting one.
I find it quite nearly obscene that they would spend all this money on a mere two track subway instead of a much more useful four-track line. Nonetheless, we'll take what we can get. The two-track system is tantalizingly close to fruition, and this is no time to fight an all-or-nothing battle.
I wonder how much more it costs to build a four-track line as compared to a two-track. The difference might not be as large as one would expect - it surely isn't twice as much.
For gigabuck capital projects, questions like this beg to be answered.
Certainly, four tracks would not be twice the price. Some costs are fixed, whatever the size of the project: planning, engineering, etc.
For cut and cover, the street's gonna get ripped up anyway, curb to curb. For bored tunnels, the actual costs here are probably doubled. There would be more concrete involved, but not 100% more.
Perhaps Joseph Chamberlain (British Politician in about 1900) said something useful about this:
"If you go £200 overdrawn, the bank will freeze your account. If you go £2,000,000,000,000 overdrawn, they'll put you on the board."
For starters, the 2nd Ave. subway is only intended to reduce the congestion of the IRT Lexington Ave. line.
What about the future terminals of the 2nd Ave. line anyway?
What about the future terminals of the 2nd Ave. line anyway?
125th on the north, apparently with provisions for a future tunnel to the Bronx.
On the south, either running into the J/M/Z BMT line *or* running under Water Street and ending near South Ferry.
You can see more at the MTA's Second Avenue Subway site.
So if they chose to align with the Nassau St. line in the near future, does this mean the closure of Canal St. (Nassau St. line) East Island platform will be suspended and that a renovation will take place, but still realign the existing Nassau St. Northbound track into the West platform?
What will they do for Fulton and Broad St. Stations?
For Fulton St. station (Nassau St. line), will they build another platform above the existing Northbound platform? I mean they can't obviously share a platform, otherwise the Nassau St. line could be congested in the Broadway portion.
So if they chose to align with the Nassau St. line in the near future, does this mean the closure of Canal St. (Nassau St. line) East Island platform will be suspended and that a renovation will take place ...
I'd be VERY surprised. The decision on which southern alignment won't be made for another year at best. First construction wouldn't start til 2004 IF the thing gets funded. And most likely the Stubway gets built first -- though post-9/11 that isn't as sure as it previously was.
So it would be 10-15 years before Second Avenue trains ran into the Nassau Line. Funding for the Canal realignment was appropriated YEARS ago. And they're not destroying platforms, just walling them off. They can always be opened up again, with new switches installed for maximum benefit to the combined lines.
"I'd be VERY surprised. The decision on which southern alignment won't be made for another year at best. First construction
wouldn't start til 2004 IF the thing gets funded. And most likely the Stubway gets built first -- though post-9/11 that isn't as
sure as it previously was."
Start calling Schumer and Clinton. The opportunity is there to nail this project down. We actually have a better opportunity now than we had before - INCREASING the chances of building the subway.
So reserve some time, and write letters to your legislators, and keep up the pressure. It really doesn't take much more time than posting on Subtalk. And you can make a difference.
Use the postal service, by the way. Email is ineffective. And then pick up the phone and call.
When are they supposed nto begin work at Canal to extend the track through. When are the platforms to close?
That won't start for quite a while. And where did you get the idea that any platforms would close?
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/bowery.html
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/canal.html
The abondonment referred to on that web site is only of one of two platforms at each station for the sake of efficiency of operations of the current J/M/Z lines and has nothing to do with the 2nd Ave subway.
Correct. However, it presents an opportunity to redesignate the abandonedplatforms as 2nd Av line platforms, should the MTA decide to connect 2nd Av trains into this tunnel.
Except that the 2nd Ave line can't make a tight enough turn from Chrystie St onto Delancey to make use of the Bowery platform (which extends east all the way to Chrystie).
I can see where the eastern Canal platform and the abandoned Nassau Loop tracks could come in handy for a Second Ave line, though. You could get all the way down to Chambers St before you had to worry about merging with the J/Z (presumably the M would head up 6th Ave as has been proposed elsewhere).
If a Second Ave. line was built, they could always re-re-align the Delancey Street tracks between Essex and Bowery so that Second Ave. trains would take over the tracks now being designated for the J/M/Z, while those three lines would use the soon-to-be-abandoned tracks on the south side of Delancey.
That would eliminate the need for a flying junction east of Bowery at Delancey, so the Second Ave. trains could turn on that level directly into the station (though it would have to be lengthened 120 feet at the west end to handle the longer trains), and the Second Ave. line would immediately have direct access to Brooklyn via the Montague tunnel, while the J/M/Z would terminate at Chambers on the east side tracks. Running a Second Ave. train via the Nassau Loop and DeKalb to Brooklyn, even if it's only during rush hours, makes more sense than the current set-up of sending the M to Bay Parkway, since it would attract more riders heading from south Brooklyn to the east side of Manhattan.
But here's the catch at Bowery: the J/Z/M platform goes all the way east to Chrystie, if not further. To merge the 2nd Ave line into the J/M/Z, you need to run it not under Chrystie (the extension of 2nd Ave below Houston), but under Sara D Roosevelt Park gradually eastward so it is under Forsyth St, one block east. Then you need to make a sharp westward turn to connect with 2 of the 4 J/M/Z tracks before you get into the Bowery station.
How expensive and difficult all of this is depends on exactly how far east the Bowery platform extends. Forsyth Street is not very far east of Chrystie. You may have to tunnel under some buildings somewhere, or extend the Bowery platform westward and demolish the east end.
By the way, somewhere or another you need some kind of a flying crossover unless you severely limit capacity. If the 2nd Ave line uses the 2 north tracks at the Bowery platform, how do you ever merge it with the J and Z by the time you get to Broad St.?
Any crossover would probably have to go between Canal and Chambers, which is a pretty good sized gap. As for the Second Ave. line itself, if the line is run near street level at Houston -- and above the F/V station, it would have to curve over into S.D. Roosevelt Park or onto Forsyth St. andyway, or else it would run right into the B/D Chrystie St. tracks and the northbound Essex/B'way Lafayette connector, which is also one level below ground at that point. The tracks would then have to pass over both of the Essex-B'way Lafayette tracks before dropping down to the level of the J/M/Z, which might entail a relocation and/or a slight raising of the east end of the Bowery platform anyway, in the same way that DeKalb was relocated and raised on the bridge track platform back in the late 1950s.
On the other hand, if the Second Ave., tracks were built below the F/V tracks at Houston, they could continue south under S.D. Roosevelt Park and betneath the Essex/B'way Lafayette tracks, and then turn west of Delancey beneath the Bowery station, not hooking up with the existing tracks until the area between Bowery and Canal. That option wouldn't utilize the four-track setup at Bowery, but as of right now there's no crying need for any Second Ave. line to have to stop between Canal and Houston Sts., unless the MTA ever builds a transfer passage between the Bowery and Grand Street stations.
Good points. I wonder how much of this the TA has worked out on paper?
Looks like you're not a humble one :-)
Arti
I had to check backto see what you meant.
I wanted to respond to J. Lee's post.
J. Lee: Good points!
I'm sorry. I interpreted the "abandonment" to mean the entire station would be abandoned - ie J service would end. I understand now what you mean.
Nothing in this plan should require outright cancellation of Nassau Street BMT service. They will be using excess tunnel capacity there. (EG J uses two out of four tracks and the Second Av subway uses two out of four tracks. Some station work will be required.
If continued service to Brooklyn is desired through an existing tunnel, that may require some changes, but that is a long way off.
I expect the following: Phase I = Stubway (63rd St-upper 2nd Av service) Phase II = service to lower Manhattan, trains turned in lower Manhattan to return uptown, with no impact on existing trains.
Phase III: Through service to Brooklyn. Different options exist. But recall that a new tunnel to lower Manhattan is being considered for LIRR. Could a new 2nd Av service tunnel be added to this?
recall that a new tunnel to lower Manhattan is being considered for LIRR. Could a new 2nd Av service tunnel be added to this?
How seriously IS this being considered? Aside from a very early Lower Manhattan Access Study on the TA site, and a handful of newspaper mentions of the possibility of a LIRR terminal downtown post-9/11, how real is this?
It's being considered as part of a downtown transit hub, including a long-range plan for PATH. Some of NY's reconstruction money could be spent on this.
It's not a sure thing, of course. But one way of increasing the chances for funding is to decide on a definite wish list and go for it.
There are other valid options, though. You are no doubt aware of them, as your posts indicate.
It's being considered as part of a downtown transit hub, including a long-range plan for PATH.
Long-range plan for PATH seems pretty limited to relocating the loop to the old Hudson Terminal site between IRT and BMT. That would connect to the 2/3-mile underground transit corridor (lined with shops) to connect WFC to PATH, N/R, 1/9 and then the Fulton-Fulton-Broadway/Nassau-Fulton complex. Don't know of anything more for PATH than that.
Some of NY's reconstruction money could be spent on [LIRR terminal].
Oh, yes, please! Frees up even MORE slots at Penn. By that time, with new Hudson tubes on the horizon into Penn AND GCT access, we could really and truly reshuffle trains around the region. (Though with 3 Manhattan terminii, scheduling would get a LOT more complicated!)
And, actually, a postscript:
(1) If there truly does get to be a LIRR tunnel, *of course* they should do it double-level (like 63rd Street) so there's a subway part. BUT, given that Second Ave isn't going to be 4-track, will they even consider spending the extra $$$? Two constituencies is better than one, of course. But ...
(2) If they choose to connect 2nd Ave to Nassau Line, it's hard to imagine ALSO constructing it so it could later turn into its own tunnel. Is there a four-track section of Nassau that could have a bellmouth inserted to an ultimate new tunnel (don't have track book here right now)? And would THAT align with any kind of useful LIRR alignment?
Please note the following:
Building a tunnel under the river offers options. Unlike the under street portion, you can:
1) Use a TBM or other method to dig.
2) Prefabricate tunnel sections in a factory and ship them on a barge to be sunk into place (this is how the 63rd Street subway/LIRR tunnel was built).
Thus, building the under-river portion of a new tunnel would not cost twice as much if you factor in four train capacity instead of two. But this does not apply to the under-street portions.
the lay up tracks outside Broad st could be used,for a new tunnel to Brooklyn or Staten Island.....
The mentions of a LIRR connection to lower Manhattan are always very vague. The MTA site suggests a connection from GCT to downtown (more expensive that the 2nd Av subway, I think), from Penn Station, or from Jamaica.
I think they are afraid to be more specific, first because of the colossal cost, and then also because there'd be a revolt if it got built before they the 2nd Ave does.
Third Avenue? From the lower level of 63rd, capturing some services (LIRR and NJT) from the 33rd-32nd tubes? Down to Bowery, Park Row to a terminus near City Hall? And you thought the 2nd Ave subway would be expensive to build.
The Atlantic Avenue option always exists, but the terminal would be on the West Side, or they would have to go way way down deep like they sometimes do in Europe. It too would be colossally expensive. And once they do what they are going to do with West St. for the WTC rebuild, this option will be largely precluded: the terminus would have to be at the Battery, perhaps on filled land, and relating poorly to the subway lines.
I'm not an LIRR rider (except on ERA Fan Trips), but were the M-1 roll signs ever used at all?
They were used for awhile on the M-3's, but not for long.
I like those. I have seen them on the front of the trains from time to time, and occassionally they're even accurate. My favorite is when an M1 or M3 (and electric car mind you) read PORT JEFFERSON. (At least I think it did, my memory may faulty.
:-) Andrew
The roll sign didn't say you didn't have to transfer.
:0)
Those LIRR roll signs were awful. They were so small that you could barely read them -- and when you could, the big letters on small signs meant that you had ridiculous abbreviations like "L Beach" and "Bab'ln". At least they were color coded. Plus, being mounted over the engineers window made them particularly difficult to read from the many island platforms on the south shore. (Shall I stick my neck out to read the sign and take the chance that this isn't an express train?)
CG
Speaking of non-electric destinations, what did the Budd turbine/electric MU's have?
Breakdowns
=)
Seriously, though, didn't those turbine units actually run in regular service for a while?
>>Speaking of non-electric destinations, what did the Budd turbine/electric MU's have<<
Bill "Newkirk" to the rescue ! I have a steamer trunk where all my rollsigns are kept. Yes, there was a Gas/Turbine rollsign in there. This sign was from the gas turbine cars that were M-1 types and not the earlier ones. There were two types of rollsigns. The cab sign had one segment, and the side had two because they had to show on the exterior and interior of the car. Here are the destinations as spelled on the sign:
PENN STATION.....white background/red letters
PENN STATION NO JAMAICA.....same as above
BROOKLYN.....white background/green letters
BROOKLYN NO JAMAICA.....same as above
HUNTERSPT AVE.....white background/black letters
HUNTERSPT AVE NO JAMAICA.....same as above
JAMAICA.....yellow background/black letters
GRAND CENTRAL.....white background/black letters
MINEOLA.....blue background/yellow letters
HICKSVILLE.....same as above
FARMINGDALE.....same as above
REPUBLIC.....same as above
RONKONKOMA.....same as above
GREENPORT.....same as above
HUNTINGTON.....blue background/white letters
NORTHPORT.....same as above
PORT JEFFERSON.....same as above
HOBOKEN.....white background/green letters
PORT JERVIS.....green background/white letters
MONROE.....same as above
OYSTER BAY.....orange background/white letters
BREWSTER.....blue background/white letters
DOVER PLAINS.....same as above
CROTON-HARMON.....green background/white letters
PEEKSKILL.....same as above
POUGHKEEPSIE.....same as above
ALBANY.....same as above
BABYLON.....same as above
PATCHPGUE.....same as above
SPEONK.....same as above
MONTAUK.....same as above
SPECIAL.....black background/white letters
NO PASSENGERS.....same as above
SHUTTLE.....same as above
JFK AIRPORT.....same as above
STEWART AIRPORT.....blue background/white letters
USDOT-UMTA.....same as above
TURBINE/ELECTRIC.....same as above
This is an identra sign, also there are a couple of white boxes so you can past on an new destination.
Bill "Newkirk"
JFK Airport? Why would it have that?
>>JFK Airport? Why would it have that?<<
Maybe they had ideas of using the old Rockaway Line for airport service. But that panned out as usual.
Also, STEWART AIRPORT!....is there a rail line running there ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Do you think they would of done something like what happened after NYCT took over the rockaway line and before the upper half was abandoned, ie lirr run specials to Howard Beach-JFK, like they did to Aqueduct, or do you think they would of tried to built another ROW? Just a hypothetorital question.
--seth
>>Do you think they would of done something like what happened after NYCT took over the rockaway line and before the upper half was abandoned, ie lirr run specials to Howard Beach-JFK, like they did to Aqueduct, or do you think they would of tried to built another ROW? Just a hypothetorital question.<<
I really don't know. They had all sorts of dreams and fantasies, but now we wound up with Airtrain. It's going to be interesting to see how Airtrain makes out with this high security alert at airports when you're spending more time on long lines than in the air traveling.
Bill "Newkirk"
Interesting. It gives a heck of an insight into what someone at the MTA was thinking at the time. Direct service from LI to Albany? JFK? Stewart Airport?
Hoboken?!?!?
It looks like the MTA had big plans back then for these units, if they turned out.
What do the M-1 and M-2 rollsigns have on them? I'd be interested to see if the M-2 rollsigns list various 'points north' of New Haven, i.e. Hartford, Springfield, New London, Providence, Boston, and if they list other destinations, noteably Waterbury and Danbury....
>>Interesting. It gives a heck of an insight into what someone at the MTA was thinking at the time. Direct service from LI to Albany? JFK? Stewart Airport?
Hoboken?!?!?<<
One idea of the Gas/Turbine set was to run not just on the LIRR, but on the Harlem and Hudson Lines. Hoboken ?!?!, Hoboken to Port Jervis (west of the Hudson).
These cars didn't have "M" Long Island or "M" Central on them, but "M" Metropolitan. They were pure experimental, just change the third rail shoes and run them somewhere else.
Bill "Newkirk"
They used to be on the sides of trains as well. All I ever saw was white (end of roll sign)
Michael
Living in Washington, DC
still remembering the LIRR
The original side and end M-1 rollsigns from 1968 (had a Kennedy Airport reading) were hooked up to an ATO system called Identra that the cars were built with like PATCO. Setting the rollsign told the car where it was going. Since ATO was never installed on the LIRR, the signs couldn't be used. They once tried, and the brakes jammed.
Only the LIRR 620 Budd Cars got it, no the 152 GE ones of 1972(including 9175-6 replacements), and I do not believe any of Metro-North's original Budd 80.
They were supposed to have been automatically controlled somehow...but never got used. Not sure if it was a system similar to what WMATA had on their original 1000-series cars (and MUNI in San Francisco has on their now-gone Boeings and the first 75 Bredas). You may see a photo here and there with the signs "in use" but they were just manually placed for publicity photography. Usually the destination reading was "PENN STATION".
I did see a list of what was on them when they were new, and they DID include destinations such as Port Jefferson, Speonk, Yaphank, and Oyster Bay. Only one of those four now has electrified service!
That's probably the one and ONLY time the LIRR did some advance planning.....
WRONG! None of them do, only dual-powered service on 3 of the 4. Oyster Bay, Speonk, and Port Jefferson.
I actually SAW the "Speonk" readings on the M-1 rolls when they were new in October, 1968...... It was DEFINITELY there.
Hey, do you think the LIRR will offer these roll signs to us Railroad historians and researchers (a.k.a "foamers") before the M-1 are hauled off to points unknown? The signs should be almost "Like New".
Those signs have long since been yanked out. During the early or mid-80's, the M-1's got their first heavy overhaul (which they were supposed to get every 5 years), that 1st one included getting them "de-sophisticated" so as to make them more maintainable.
Any remants of that Identra system were removed.
I took my first ACELA trip this morning, 2150 from 30th St to NYP.
It was smoother than I thought it would be. The conductor said it was
hard to walk through because of the tilt.
I think it is nicer than the Eurostar, but not as nice as TGV and new
bullet trains. Train ran on time, but got stuck in NYP congestion and
was ten minutes late arriving.
Compared to the congestion coming into Laguardia, 10 minutes is nothing. Gotta love the railroads.
Train ran on time, but got stuck in NYP congestion and
was ten minutes late arriving.
What happened here?
Received an ad today inviting me to subscribe to New York magazine... attached (by perforation) to the "subscription acceptance form" was a wallet subway map of Manhattan showing subway service as of December, 2001, copyright by the MTA, "used with permission". On the back is a New York street finder, also Manhattan only. Anyone else get one?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Got one on Wednesday.
Received an ad today inviting me to subscribe to New York magazine... attached (by perforation) to the "subscription acceptance form" was a wallet subway map of Manhattan showing subway service as of December, 2001, copyright by the MTA, "used with permission". On the back is a New York street finder, also Manhattan only. Anyone else get one?
We got one yesterday.
What was this some kind of mass mailing? I gor one yesterday also. The map also had the code for Manhattan addresses.
Yeah I got it. The map is outdated, tho it says Dec. 2001. It doesn't show the reopened N/R stations south of Canal.
The street address finder has a serious error, In the instructions, "Take the number of the avenue building, cancel the last digit , and add or subtract the number below" it left out the crucial step after "cancel the last digit"-- "and divide by 2". It also left out York Ave -- which is the same as Avenue A.
Shame for a magazine calling itself New York.
Nor does it have the V train, and it still shows Park Pl closed.
About a month or two ago, Sony was handing out credit-card size (when folded) maps of the Chicago Loop area as an ad for its VAIO laptops. They were being handed out on the street to commuters during the morning rush hours. I picked up a couple. Not really sure how useful it is, but my wife likes to carry a Loop area map around in her purse for when she visits the area.
-- Ed Sachs
On the news it was being broadcast that NY mag had egg on its face for missing the W and V, and not having the F changes.
There is a picture in James Clifford Greller's NYC Subway Cars pg 150 of a new R68 on the B line which was around the mid to late 1980's. I have 2 questions about this subject:
1)For how long did they tested them on the B line? Was that around the Manhattan Bridge North Side closure or before that? What were the R68 car nos. assigned to the B?.
2)What equipment was assigned to the B line at that time was it only R40 slants?
For a while in the late 80's, or early 90's the B was 100% slants.
B's were slants until about 1996. The slants went to the Q and the B's got r-68's!!!
An occasional R68 B train might have been run on the B after 12/11/88, but until the beginning of October 1997, the B was exclusively R40 slant. I never saw an R68 B during the 86-88 Broadway reroute (in fact, the B always got the crappiest cars assigned to CI at this time). An R68 B in service in the 1980's would be an extremely rare sight.
So probably the picture was taken after the reopening of the northside MannyB tracks because that R68 lead car was sporting a diamond orange B in front.
I'm not sure. I'm beginning to think this pic was staged.
What do you mean by that?
That the R68 in the pic was set for the "B" line strictly for the taking of a picture, not an actual in-service train.
The B wasn't all R40 slants at that time. I recall twice in 1994-95 that there were ocasionally R32s running on the B. Do you remember that?
Quite possible, but I dont recall that. I remember I was working on 34th Street then. The "F" was packed at East Bway. At Bway Lafayette, I would always peek out to see an express come in. Usually I got on a "D" because it was the least jammed. The "B" slants were ALWAYS sardine city I recall. So were the R-68 "Q" trains back then. Tony
Washington Post had an article about the financial situation today. Interestingly enough, the photo accompanying the article was that of an NJT train.
Along with the Long Island Railroad's Eastside line,shouldnt the T.A create space for this weel know route? The oppurtunities are perfect,and you would have to be nuts to pass this one up... any comment?
The bellmouth from the 63rd Street line for the super-express bypass trackage is still there under 41 Av in Queens. Write to the TA and advocate for it. Write to the Governor, and post the answer here.
Ron,how do you feel about this line? From some of your post,it seems that you would be for it,and being a Queens resident,it would most likely work in your favor,as well as the thousands of other Queens blvd riders... so now that the funds are flowing, what could be done other than someone getting killed on a train packed like sardines to convince the MTA,T.A, the Long Island[to share the space],the State of New York and whom ever else that this route is needed?
I'm generally for it, especially since an above-ground bypass with few stops (or no stops?) till Forest Hills would be relatively cheap to build (relative to $400 million per mile for new tunnel, that is).
On the other hand, if it were up to me, I'd put a bellmouth at the northern side of 41 Avenue and put trains on a new line running east-west north of Queens Blvd, to serve areas between the 7 line and the Queens Blvd corridor. These are places which have never seen a train, and could draw ridership from folks who might otherwise pack into the other existing lines..
Since there are no serious sponsors, though, and MTA might be receptive to a renewed bypass idea - hey, go for what you think realistically you can get...
Thank you...
Instead of sending it to Forest Hills, my thoughts would have sent it via Sunnyside into 65th St to capture all local service. The local service west of 65th would be extended east on a new line along Northern Blvd to Shea Stadium.
During rush hour, for the few who really wanted a local stop between Roosevelt and QPlaza, they would have had to taken and express to QP and then backtracked. Nonrush, all trains would operate via the existing IND.
The new service out on Northern Blvd would seriously relieve the Flushing line. Roosevelt would not be quite as jammed, and all trains would go express from that point.
That's a nice idea. I'd ride a train like that.
Instead of sending it to Forest Hills, my thoughts would have sent it via Sunnyside into 65th St to capture all local service.
More like a commuter train (Metro North Hudson Line, for example), which has (electric) locals before Croton-Harmon, and (diesel) expresses that express to Croton then go local.
then what would be the point of it being called ''the Queens Bypass''or SUPEREXPRESS LINE''?
None at all. Mine is a different proposal. Call it the 'Northern Blvd option'.
Cheers--I live on Northern and would gladly take a tax increase if it meant a subway downstairs.
Dan
Then you should check out my expansion plan. It has a very similar transit alternative for the using the 63rd Street tunnel for a new trunk line under Northern Blvd.
Where would it end up going to?
The 63rd Street tunnel would form the Northern Blvd. trunk line at 35th Street and Northern Blvd.--using the bellmouth in the eastbound tunnel and curving north. A connection to the Manhattan bound tunnel will have to be constructed. the four tracks form at Northern and 35th, proceed up 35th to 31st Avenue and curve east onto 31st Ave. to about 54th or 55th Streets. Then the tracks turn onto Northern Blvd proper and remain there until it reaches Little Neck. Branches in Flushing, one north to the Bronx, serving Whitestone before going under the East River and another south along Union Street, then Kissena Blvd. to 73rd avenue then Union Tnpk. to Glen Oaks. I even had the mainline enter Nassau County and an additional southern branch along Springfield Blvd.
This is essentially my version too, tho' it's two or three track, and only to Shea Stadium. It makes 4 or 5 stops on Northern Blvd between Shea and the location of the current Northern Blvd/54th St. station; this station is probably destroyed to build the switch between the Northern Blvd line and the current Queens IND. During rush hour local trains coming from the 65th St. station go express to Queensbridge; trains from Northern Blvd continue along to service the remaining local stations to Qns Plaza. Nonrush hours, one local continues to Queens Plaza, while another turns to Queensbridge.
The result is a serious fix to congestion on both the Queens IND and IRT. Roosevelt will still be crowded, but most people on the local trains are likely to stay in place. Service along Northern Blvd would capture pedestrians now headed south to the Flushing line, as well as pick up further passengers at Shea Stadium, where there would be a cross-platform transfer to the Flushing line.
Basically, the R and G would go back as they were before at Queens Plaza, but would go out to Northern Blvd. Anything more would require another East River tunnel.
Northern Blvd is pretty flat, reasonably wide, and not that densely developed. 32nd and 34th Avenues would become one way. Construction would be bottom-dollar cut-and-cover. South of Northern, you get progressively larger apt houses as you move down to Roosevelt Avenue. North of Northern is mainly one-and-two family houses. The development along Northern is low rise. A new subway line here would doubtless spark major redevelopment, and soon enough, the new subway line would be maxed out. You'd need to build it with an eye to connecting to a new East River connecetor.
>> Northern Blvd is pretty flat, reasonably wide, and not that densely developed. 32nd and 34th Avenues would become one way. Construction would be bottom-dollar cut-and-cover. South of Northern, you get progressively larger apt houses as you move down to Roosevelt Avenue. North of Northern is mainly one-and-two family houses. The development along Northern is low rise <<
Sounds like a perfect ROW for light rail. It could run from MainSt. past Shea, the length of Northern, with subway conections at Broadway to the V/R, and at Queens Plaza to everything. And, as long as we're in the realm of fantasy, we could extend it into Manhattan via the lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel, or even over the 59th St. Bridge (outer roadways), and terminating in the still extant former trolley terminal underneath 2d Avenue.
You could even build a branch up 94th St. into LaGuardia.
Sounds like a perfect ROW for light rail.
Take it from someone who lives on it, Northern Blvd. is one of the worst candidates I can think of for light rail. It's seven lanes wide in a configuration of 1 parking, 2 driving, 1 turning, 2 driving and 1 parking. It is a major truck route (LIE alternate, also accepts traffic from the Triboro Bridge and funnels it to the Whitestone and Van Wyck Expressways) and more often then not is very heavily trafficked. There is no room for a light rail line. Besides, it's already served along its entire length by buses. The Q66-Northern Blvd serves between Main St. and Northern Blvd. Station on the R-V-G and the Q13 and Q12 serve between Main St. and (I think) the county line, terminating at Main St./Flushing on the 7. It'd be nice if one of these went through to Manhattan, but adding a lightrail ROW would destroy the traffic patterns.
Dan
and as a transit preference advocate so what?
Which brings us back to the utility of adapting the old Forest Hills superexpress proposal to that of a subway under Northern Blvd.
To restate it, all Manhattan-bound rush hour locals from 65th St. on would go express to Queensbridge. The express tracks would come in at approximately 55th St. The old G-R local configuration out of Queens Plaza would be restored as far as the current Northern Blvd. station, but would branch off Broadway onto Northern Blvd and continue east to Shea stadium. Nonrush, locals from 65th St as well as Northern Blvd trains, would continue along the present route, serving both Queens Plaza and Queensbridge.
It's an elaborate switch in the vicinity of the present Northern Blvd. station, where the existing express tracks diverge from the local tracks. It likely involves the destruction of the current Northern Blvd. station.
The new superexpress rush hour run via the local tracks to/from Roosevelt-Midtown would compare quite favorably to the present express run via Queens Plaza; there would be considerably less changing of trains at Roosevelt. From Roosevelt via Queensbridbge, it would be 5 stops to Rocky Center, compared to the 4 via Queens Plaza. The new service under Northern Blvd. would appreciably relieve congestion on both the Queens IND and Flushing lines.
Of all the fantasy lines spoken of here, this is one of the genuinely practical. The benefits are obvious, it's not too difficult to build, nor is too colossally expensive.
Of all the fantasy lines spoken of here, this is one of the genuinely practical. The benefits are obvious, it's not too difficult to build, nor is too colossally expensive.
Which all goes to show the intransigence and pennypinching which stops the diggers moving in now.
In 1991, the MTA made a strong push to get funding for the Queens Super Express. A special train was prepared for Mario the Magnificent to ride to see what the super express would mean to Queens Blvd. subway riders. His emminence never showed up - in essence telling the Queens subway riders, "DROP DEAD". Of course he also fought against the death penalty so I guess vicious felons had a greater priority in his mind.
It can still be built. The question is, for Queens-bound riders, how to put together an effective coalition to get it done?
It's not easy. Even getting 63rd Street completed involved Claire Shulman and other Queens pols (except Julia Harrison, of course) really laying it on the line.
The effort to get Second Av funded involved: A committed effort by the Manhattan Borough President and a large task force/coalition, public support obtained from state legislators in all boroughs, an Assembly Speaker willing to go head to head with the Senate majority leader and the Governor, and a situation where there was virtually no NIMBY and no significant public dissent.
A Queens Super Express, done above ground most of the way, would need a committed, united effort by Queens pols, an early crushing of any NIMBY cries, and carrots in the form of trading cards in the legislature that Pataki and the Senate Majority Leader need. Of course, having the new Assembly Speaker sign off on this would be critical.
The super express, under the original plan would have branched off at Woodhaven Blvd., then follow the LIRR ROW through Sunnyside Yd. into 63rd St.. The plan also included a large storage facility in Sunnyside as well. Since most of the line would be over existing RR ROW, the NIMBYs would have little to complain about.
Thanks for helping me on that.
The problem I see with the Queens Super Express is its limited usefulness in increasing capacity. AFAIK, it is planned as single track. This would have one or other of the following problems:
- an actual decrease in capacity for those living along the busy Queens Boulevard line
- a hell of a lot of trains at termini with nowhere to go.
Therefore I see a solution with a couple of new full scale lines across Queens, one slightly further North, the other slightly further South in relation to Queens Boulevard, as distinctly preferable.
It would provide 15 tph increase in capacity in the rush hour direction. Right now, city-bound in rush hour, Queens Blvd has 2 tracks east of Continental, but they have to funnel into 1, namely the express track at Continental. A super-express could bypass that track and feed the currently underused 63rd street tunnel.
Once in Manhattan, there are 3 possibilities to absorb those 15 tph: the 6th Ave local track, the Boradway express tarck at 57th St, and the broadway local track at 57th street.
Don't forget the planed 2 ave line going south to lower Manhattan... thats the purpose of the of the bell mopuths in the 63 st tunnel walls out side Lexington ave station...
Would the bypass track have had a second passing track of at least one full train length?
Sorry. I (a) don't understand the question and (b) don't know the details of the plan for the super express. I was just trying to explain how a super express that splits off east of Continental on its inbound route can provide significant additional capacity.
The question was this: When you have a single track line of some length, you often put in a passing track of at least one train length. Thus, a train coming in one direction yields to an oncoming train by pulling into the passing track, or siding, and waiting until the through train passes. Then the waiting train runs onto the main track and continues on its way.
In reviewing the nycsubway.org historical text, I now see that the intent was a peak direction third track, similar in function to the 7 or Concourse lines.
Assuming the trains merged into the Queens Blvd. corridor, a passing track would not be needed.
One item missing from that discussion was the local connection.
If MTA were to build the bypass today, the use of 2 tracks could a) Provide for express service in both directions; b) eliminate the need for the tunnel merge. Of course, that means that anyone coming from Jamaica Estates, Jamaica or Kew Gardens stations wanting to use the Super Express would have to walk a block to transfer...
I believe the alignment of this 5th Queens Blvd Line track would take it under Queens Boulevard between the Kew Gardens station and somewhere in Sunnyside, then connect to the 41st Avenue/63rd Street tunnel.
That's quite a stretch. I guess exactly where was the subject of some debate.
I recall much urging being conveyed to the MTA to provide a local connection from western Queens tracks to the 63rd Street line. This was expressed as the southern bellmouth on the 41 Av tunnel.
Without a storage facility at the Manhattan end, a single peak-direction track doesn't increase capacity at all, since all trains have to share the outbound tracks.
You are correct.
"Without a storage facility at the Manhattan end, a single peak-direction track doesn't increase capacity at all, since all trains have to share the outbound tracks."
However, there is the option of having the super-express continue on into Brooklyn in the morning rush, and originate in Brooklyn in the evening. As discussed in other parts of this thread, there is spare capacity distributed over the 6th Ave and Broadway lines that would allow these additional trains to go on into Brooklyn.
My point exactly (when the ManBridge comes back on line). Even at present there's unused capacity because of the shortage of trainsets (look at all those trains they turn back at 2nd Av instead of sending on to Brooklyn via Rutgers).
I'm sure Brooklyn residents would be thrilled with all the empty trains they'd see running the wrong way!
And how do you get the trains back from Manhattan? Alternatively, where are you going to store them until the afternoon peak?
Material on the subway.org site includes text which states the TA intended for the bypass trains to merge back into Queens Blvd. main tracks past Forest Hills. If built, the extra trains would lay up either on the ample storage tracks east of 179, or in the 3000 foot tunnel behind the E terminal at Jamaica Center.
I am assuming the merge would not be in time to send trains into the Jamaica Yard leads...
Okay you have somewhere to put these one-diretcion super-express trains in Queens, but look at the morning. Train after train runs to Manhattan along the super-express track, through the 63rd St tunnel, then onto either the Broadway or 6th Av Lines.
I don't think there's anywhere for these trains to go without BIG service cuts. Here are the options:
- via 6th Av and Rutgers (no surplus capacity on 6th Av)
- via 6th Av and Chrystie St (no surplus capacity on 6th Av, probably train length problem too)
- via 6th Av and 6th Av Extension (no surplus capacity on 6th Av, mess at W4 St theory)
- via Broadway and Manny B (you must be joking - more trains on the Manny B?!?)
- via Broadway and Montague (still no room in the tunnel)
- via Broadway to the centre track at Whitehall (the centre track isn't that long)
- via Broadway to City Hall (Lower Level) (somehow has to get onto local tracks, but might conceivably work)
Any bright ideas anyone?
Maximum speed is...........40 MPH (about 60 kph.) CI Peter
Maximum speed is...........40 MPH (about 60 kph.)
Who cares about kilometres anyway? It's only a silly unit the French and their mates use.
Sorry my friend...I get a little confused here in the Anglican States of America. Right/left hand drive, inches/centimeters, kilos/pounds, dollars/Euros. Problem is that we all fouled up on an accurate unit of measure....decimal inches is even worse. As for my R142 trainsets, I was highway driving at exactly 40 MPH in the Bronx to simulate the ride.....it is slow indeed R142 V7.0. The makeup is in how fast the conductor opens and closes the doors. CI Peter
Yeh well you can safely use American terms in England and they'll be vaguely right. We have miles, inches, pounds (though we tend to group them into stone (1st=14lb)), the other type of Pounds (£) and we drive on the left. The only real difference is in liquid measure where we use pints and gallons, but ours are slightly bigger.
Europeans (which the British are NOT) use anything divisible by 10, but at least they drive on the right.
>>>Europeans (which the British are NOT)...<<<
Why is that? I always considered England (and Ireland, for that matter) part of Europe. Please educate me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why is that? I always considered England (and Ireland, for that matter) part of Europe. Please educate me.
Well, the first thing is that England and Britain are different things. Yes, 85% of the British population live in England, but by confusing them you upset the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish.
Britain is part of the European Union but has secured opt-outs on certain significant things including the Social Chapter and the Euro. European institutions don't actually do much at all, except being paid lots of money. So we still have the Pound Sterling and we don't have some of the extremely silly European employment legislation (Have you noticed how the French are always on strike?). Most of the British public are very sceptical about all things European. The point of Europe for Britain is to maintain an uniquely independent position of economic success (the 4th largest economy on Earth for a country with a population of under 60 million is absurdly good), neither being European or American, and maintaining separate foreign policy.
Britain is ridiculously powerful for such a small country, still commanding an odd respect among other nations. Plus it is the only Western country willing to stand by America in most situations. It is mildly amusing seeing Osama bin Laden refer to America and Britain as the big and little satans. In reality, Britain is much more American than European, although keeping a certain distance.
One must always remember that all major British cities sustained considerable damage from WWII. Britain does not like big wars. Such thins have well and truly messed up Britain twice in a hundred years. As such, there is a European element as well.
Hopefully this clarifies Britain as being clearly different from Europe. Ireland is another matter. They are a lot more pro-Europe, because there is an anti-British strand of opinion.
To put it another way, the English speaking world begins at the English Channel. The Brits have far more in common with US'uns than those across the Channel or North Sea (the Dutch excepted; they're quite different, but more like us than the rest of Europe combined).
Thank You for the outstanding clarification,
Peace,
ANDEE
One must always remember that all major British cities sustained considerable damage from WWII. Britain does not like big wars. Such thins have well and truly messed up Britain twice in a hundred years.
The same can be said, in spades, about certain continental European countries as well.
Ireland is another matter. They are a lot more pro-Europe, because there is an anti-British strand of opinion.
For reasons that Brits are often startlingly blind to ... the Irish in English jokes inevitably occupy the place that Polish people and racial minorities have long occupied in American jokes: the butt.
The British attitude toward Europe is probably still best summed up by a famous headline from decades ago: "Fog over Channel, Continent Cut Off"
For reasons that Brits are often startlingly blind to ... the Irish in English jokes inevitably occupy the place that Polish people and racial minorities have long occupied in American jokes: the butt.
Except you can't get away with telling Irish jokes now. Plus Northern Ireland is ironically the most pro-British part of the UK, much to the distaste of those who want a united Ireland!
Northern Ireland is ironically the most pro-British part of the UK, much to the distaste of those who want a united Ireland!
Ummmmmm ... no. A numerical majority of Northern Ireland residents, perhaps, yes. But a major subset of Northern Ireland residents is in favor of a range of changes to the current situation, ranging from closer affiliation between Northern Ireland and Eire to an ultimate reunion of the six counties with the rest of the island.
But we REALLY shouldn't get into THAT discussion on this board. I'll shut up now.
But a major subset of Northern Ireland residents is in favor of a range of changes to the current situation, ranging from closer affiliation between Northern Ireland and Eire to an ultimate reunion of the six counties with the rest of the island.
Led by that arch-terrorist Gerry Adams. If he'd succeded in blowing up the Canary Wharf Tower, you'd think him as bad as bin Laden. The only way the 6 counties could reunite with the other 26 would be as a Dominion or a Commonwealth, but never as an Independent Republic. Yes, I think the way some people march around in bowler hats and orange sashes and go on about a battle over 300 years agois a bit sad, but at least they aren't trying to carve up my country and blow up the largest office building in London.
Britain is part of the European Union but has secured opt-outs on certain significant things including the Social Chapter and the Euro. European institutions don't actually do much at all, except being paid lots of money.
For all the jokes about the overpaid, coffee-drinking bureaucrats at the MTA headquarters, or even at the NYC Board of Education, they're said to be sheer workaholics when compared to the EU bureaucrats in Brussels!
For all the jokes about the overpaid, coffee-drinking bureaucrats at the MTA headquarters, or even at the NYC Board of Education, they're said to be sheer workaholics when compared to the EU bureaucrats in Brussels!
At least your education system teaches people as best it can to be good Americans. That is more than can be said for anyone else's, with the possible exception of Germany in the period 1933-1945.
You haven't heard the best of it yet. Britain elects 83 Members of the European Parliament. Guess what powers the European Parliament has? To debate, pontificate about irrelevancies but not actually do anything, vote out the whole European Commission (not individual Commissioners). The European Commission just writes directives messing up everyones life - for instance you have to buy 0.568 litres of beer not a pint, bananas must be straight to a certain dimension, you have to throw a certain amount of fish back into the sea after you've caught and killed it (allegedly to preserve fish stocks, but more likely the Dutch and German's fishing "industry"), and generally regulate our businesses out of existence.
A majority of the British public are against all this European rubbish, but they are stupid enough to vote against the only parties opposed to it. They elected the Labour Party, despite the Conservative Party's pledge to renegotiate with Europe. Even in Northern Ireland, the UUP (the Conservative Party in disguise) lost seats. Where is the logic in all that? I suppose it is the first rule of democracy that the people vote the wrong way!
A majority of the British public are against all this European rubbish, but they are stupid enough to vote against the only parties opposed to it. Where is the logic in all that? I suppose it is the first rule of democracy that the people vote the wrong way!
Or that what people tell pollsters varies from how they actually vote ... which to me is the essence and the delight of democracy, finding out what people ACTUALLY do in the voting booth!
Do you get the same amount of McDonalds FRENCH Fries in a cup as we do? CI Peter
You mean the Brits would deign to eat Frog Fries??
No, American Fries like we do........anyone who consumes 'frites' with vinegar or eats 'blood pie' deserves to be stuck in an R142 for an hour. It's just the measurement thingy...are 'Brits' so unworldly that they just don't get enough fries in their McDonalds or Wendys. CI Peter
The last time I was in a Brit MacDonalds, the sign called them french fries, but the customers and help alike resolutely called them chips.
MacDonalds in Quebec is hilarous. The first time you see 'Poulet McCroquettes', and after the few seconds it takes to figure out what this is, you all but double over in laughter. These are McNuggets. Un hambourgois avec fromage (if I'm spelling it right) is almost as good. Montreal has a nice metro, tho'.
pimplemous avec alcool.
>>>These are McNuggets.<<<
I have always wondered...What part of the chicken does a McNugget come from?
Peace,
ANDEE
Not any part we'd like to think about, I'm afraid :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Either a McBlock or a McWedge. But (RCO) Revenue Chicken Operations and (DCD) Division of Chicken Equipment can't agree on which.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm sitting in tears laughing. How can I bring RCO or DCD into work when the guys I work with don't understand "Kursk' or 'thankyouverrrymuch?' I guess the lone Anglican American at 239th will remain alone humor wise. CI Peter, sinker of subs and smacker of turtle mush curry.
I have always wondered...What part of the chicken does a McNugget come from?
"Mechanically separated chicken parts." That means, I believe, tiny scraps of meat that adhere to bones after chickens are cut up in the processing plants, and which are separated from the bones via certain devices.
Who says it comes from a chicken?
Yeah, but Farthings,Pence, and Shillings are Long GON and even the Pound Sterling has been replaced by the Euro. The British do TV really good, though, to those who disagree, I say two words EMMA PEEL
even the Pound Sterling has been replaced by the Euro.
No, it hasn't. Britain is one of three countries in the European Economic Community that is NOT participating in the Euro. There's likely to be a vote in the next few years as to whether this policy should change, but handicapping is too close to call at the moment.
No-one would call a vote, certainly not in the near future. The last opinion poll was 72% No, 29% Yes, 3% Undecided/Wouldn't Say.
before anyone points it out, it was 25% yes
No-one would call a vote, certainly not in the near future. The last opinion poll was 72% No, 25% Yes, 3% Undecided/Wouldn't Say.
I suspect these figures pre-date the successful introduction of Euro currency (notes & coins) that started this month. I've seen some news stories since then that the numbers have slightly improved for conversion. That said, however, your point is still largely true -- Brits are generally suspicious of surrendering control over their currency to a European governing body.
(As a schoolboy who grew up calculating in L.s.d. I still miss "old sterling" ... decimalization was the first step toward Eurosameness!)
>>> decimalization was the first step toward Eurosameness! <<<
In the spirit of give them an inch, they will take a meter, the next thing you know it will be said that the Brits drive on the wrong side of the road. :-)
Tom
Actually my figures were a week after the "succesful" snarl up of the Austrian cash machines, save for me mistyping them.
Pity people now think LSD is a hallucinogen!
The Pound and the Penny are still there, although the £1 note has been superseded by the £1 coin, except in Scotland. Farthings are indeed long gone (1967 I think). The Shilling unofficially remained until 1995 when they reduced the size of the Five Pence Piece (the B*stards - the new ones are so easy to lose and I liked using money minted in the 1950's plus it looked nicer - you didn't find much from before that because it didn't circulate as they were actually made of silver until 1948), hence removing all the remaining One Shilling coins from circulation. The Two Shilling coin was replaced at about the same time.
I collect the old large pennies, have darned near all of them after Queen Victoria. If you have a source for these pennies by date, let me know, I'd like to finish it (for those who aren't familiar, those pennies are as big as a half dollar) I love Sovereigns, as well and gave one to my wife as a wedding gift can't afford to collect those by date, however.
Quite a lot of people kept the old pennies as weights in their kitchens. Their weight worked out quite well in Imperial measurements. In the reign of Queen Victoria, the design was adopted which everyone knows about. Before that there was a "cart wheel" design. Of course these are hard to come by as they were in heavy circulation and the middle had an uncanny knack of falling out.
>> Who cares about kilometres anyway? It's only a silly unit the French and their mates use. <<
The USA is the about only backward country in the world that refuses to adopt the metric system, a superior system of measurement. I long for the day when I don't have to trek to Canada to bring home decent thermometers, scales, and rulers. No matter-- the metric system has already made significant inroads into American life (soda, wine, pharmaceuticals, film, etc.) and will continue its relentless course. It will take a long time, but in the end, it will win. It has to, the same way the Second Avenue subway and the LIRR GCT connector and a host of other subway and rail projects have to be built in the end.
HEAR! HEAR!
Also you don't need to go to Canada for good measurements now. Almost all containers use dual measure now, thermometers are both ºF and ºC (I would prefer K and R, but that's just me) and I got a kilogram bath scale at Ikea.
Unfortunately, some things didn't change over successfully. When 20 oz plastic soda bottles were introduced to replace 16 oz glass ones, they had a golden oppurtunity to go for exactly 750 CCs. When glass apple juice bottles were recently replaced with easy grip plastic ones, they also didn't metrify them.
The USA is the about only backward country in the world that refuses to adopt the metric system
The thing abt the USA is the Pint is too small - only 16oz unlike the 20oz Imperial Pint. I'd much rather have a British Pint of beer!
Yhe beer itself is better as well.
Thanks! I certainly enjoy it...
Look again. Even the 63rd connection doesn't max out the unused capacity in Manhattan. The extra trains would all go to the Coney Island or Pitkin yards.
The Second Avenue Subway plan includes expanding 38th Street Yard to store more passenger trains.
David
You're right - that is why I would have opted for two tracks, not just one.
Or even stop messing around and build a second trunk line across Queens.
I like your solution. The Long Island Expressway should have had a train running either under it or along the median (or combination of both). The TA did plan one.
On, under or over. I recall reading that, back in the 70s, they were planning on a 48th St line (maybe 49th) to service it -- right after they completed the 2nd Ave subway.
Never say never. It could happen one day.
Sounds great! How far along it did they plan a line? It'd be cool if it were 262nd St or something, even better if it were the LIRR at Roslyn!
Re a line along the LIE:
I don't know what the exact plans were.
Were they to build it today, Cunningham or Alley Pond Park would be a reasonable terminus (where there would be a yard). Such a line would seriously relieve congestion on the Flushing and Queens IND. If you built it 3 track, you could have some awesomely fast express runs.
While the Queens portion would be mostly elevated, it would still be very expensive. $15 billion?
While the Queens portion would be mostly elevated, it would still be very expensive. $15 billion?
Well, you can't construct a brick for 5 bucks. It doesn't sound an outrageous expense.
Can't you make a brick for a P?
could make one to throw at the next person to make a bad joke about the P train ;)
that particular line was moved to Jewel ave,and terminated at Parsons Blvd.
that particular line was moved to Jewel ave,and terminated at Parsons Blvd. It diverged at 71 ave,ran through the Jamaica yard to Jewel.
Once the Manhattan Bridge is fixed there is huge excess capacity. Let's assume you put the N back onto the south tracks and the B and D use the north tracks.
You spare capacity is:
6th Ave local tracks: 5 tph (F is 15, V is 10)
6th Ave express tracks: 10 tph (I'm guessing B is 8 tph and D is 12).
Broadway express tracks: 14 tph (I'm guessing N is 8 and Q Brighton local is 8)
Broadway local tracks: 20 (R is 10, M is 8, so you can turn 10 at Whitehall and send 10 through Montague tunnel).
6th Ave local tracks: 5 tph (F is 15, V is 10)
Well, that's not much use. You can say sod 3 of those for a start so that reliable service can be maintained. That would be 2 tph.
6th Ave express tracks: 10 tph (I'm guessing B is 8 tph and D is 12).
Better, but you would never get 10 tph more on in New York. Maybe in Paris.
Broadway express tracks: 14 tph (I'm guessing N is 8 and Q Brighton local is 8)
That seems the best option as you present it. I am just slightly concerned as to what would happen to the 2nd Av trains (via 63rd St) then if they ever appear. The other problem is that I have read on another post that the Q will be increased to 12 tph. That only leaves, theoretically, 10 tph to play with, minus delays.
Broadway local tracks: 20 (R is 10, M is 8, so you can turn 10 at Whitehall and send 10 through Montague tunnel).
This is the most problematic. You can't turn them, as they don't have a track to return on. I'm not sure as to what the situation would be once you hit De Kalb either. Plus, do you really want to whizz through Queens then become the R-train?!?
You can't assume that all service will remain exactly as is, except for the addition of this one train. The numbers above are the total service between Brooklyn and Midtown. Any number of re-arrangements are possible to make room for nice chunks that a super-express could use. You could add 2 V trains and subtract 2 Rs, as an example. You could make the N local to allow this train to be express, etc. This whole idea is so speculative that I don't see the point of making a detaild plan; I was just pointing out that the capacity is there.
Even if you say max 27 tph per track, and 12 for the Q, you still have a total of 23 tph to rearrange. (I also have trouble believing the Brighton line needs an increase from the admittedly currently inusfficient 18 to as many as 24).
By the way, back when there was an EE from Whitehall to Continental, significant numbers of trains (I'm guessing 8-10 tph) turned around at Whitehall. They come in from the downtown track to the center track, and turn around heading from the center track onto the uptown.
There were two local Brooklyn papers I found today that carried a story about BHRA needing to cough up $98,000 or DOT would not approve Phase III of trolley line development. Apparently, DOT wants to see the money by Friday (today).
I am not sure about the details, but sounds like DOT is trying to stall the BHRA progress. If Phase III is not approved, Bob's trolley line will likely not go beyond the Red Hook area.
I hope things get worked out so BHRA does not get 'shortchanged'.
If anyone has access to 'The Brooklyn Daily Eagle' (Thur. Jan. 10) or 'The Brooklyn Paper' (Jan. 14). The articles are on the covers of both. The Eagle is a daily and the Paper is a weekly.
BMTman
Why does the DOT need nearly a hundred thousand dollars? Is this a tax or a fee of some sort?
-Robert King
DOT is planning to build a traffic "roundabout" here in Voorheesville that we neither WANT nor NEED ... the cost of this project from hell is WELL in excess of the cash needed for the BHRA ... residents of the village overwhelmingly voted it down and yet DOT (which has an office here) INSISTS upon doing it anyway.
Stop this project here and there's plenty of cash for the trolley out of existing funds down there ... we don't WANT a "traffic roundabout" otherwise known as a whirling dervish of death ...
DOT is planning to build a traffic "roundabout" here in Voorheesville that we neither WANT nor NEED
Well ... the DOT replaced the existing traffic circle off Exit 19 of the Thruway, and the whole area reacted exactly the same way. The old big-radius roundabout had higher than average accidents. People bitched, moaned, screamed, whined, complained, wrote to their representatives, etc. And the DOT didn't help by opening it six weeks before the signs arrived (it has 5 radial exits that include the Thruway, the road to the Kingston-Rhinecliff Bridge, 2 different ways into the city AND Route 28 west from Ulster to Delaware County). Those six weeks were a disaster.
However. It's now done. It looks great, complete with local bluestone around the plantings. AND, it's doing EXACTLY what they wanted -- it has reduced accidents substantially.
Moral: The DOT is no friend of trains (see my earlier posts on their obstruction of the CMRR's Route 28 level crossing which has been funded for several years now), BUT they're good at the road-building and design part of what they do.
I remember the old whirling dervish of doom in Kingston quite well. Got nailed in it myself. But at least there, there's actual TRAFFIC. Here in our sleepy little village of 2000, it connects Rte 155 which has maybe 30-40 cars an hour to 85A which has a little bit more than that. And of course the turnoff to a small shopping center where there HAVE been a few left turn events isn't going to be helped at all with cars zooming blindly out of that circle right into that left turn.
I'd really rather the money for this "improvement" was spent somewhere useful, like down in Brooklyn or anywhere else. Our little village all agrees on this - the vote went 83-13 ... not often do small towns find themselves in THAT much agreement on anything. :)
Here in our sleepy little village of 2000 ... the vote went 83-13
Was the village able to kill the plan? Knowing the DOT, I'd be surprised. You can often modify their designs (Saugerties got blue slate sidewalks the length of the village in their rebuild of 212 from the Thruway) but rarely quash projects altogether.
Back on topic, that rebuild was interesting 'cause they widened a cut through a slate shelf to cross the West Side Line. Makes the road a much straight shot, and you can actually SEE where you're going. But, they designed it very, very carefully so it ended up at the tracks in exactly the same place so they didn't have to mess with the level crossing. Could the DOT be scared of the RRs? (That line is so heavily used for freights that I can't imagine shutting it down even for a day .... )
DOT told us all to go to hell, we're getting the damn thing whether we want it or not ... such is DOT ... and yeah, the railroads do have an ability to get the feds involved. That's probably the why there.
>>> DOT told us all to go to hell, we're getting the damn thing whether we want it or not <<<
Robert Moses lives!!! :-)
Tom
They call DOT regional managers "warlords" ... and do so for a reason. Nice to know that a little piece of Al Queda rules in NYS. I sure do wish though that our little insurance claim tilt-a-whirl could be cashed in so trolleys could roam Brooklyn again ...
They call DOT regional managers "warlords" ... and do so for a reason. Nice to know that a little piece of Al Queda rules in NYS.
Uhh, Selkirk ... I enjoy our chats, and you have great knowledge even if it's expressed differently than I'd choose.
But please ... saying NYS-DOT employees are equal to Al Quaeda is too much. Things are a little raw still here in NYC. That's offensive to the employees, and to everyone who suffered on 9/11. I know it's hyperbole, but still -- going too far. IMHO.
Sorry ... what DOT's trying to pull here has us kinda raw too. But you're right. My apologies ...
BUT they're good at the road-building and design part of what they do
Haven't been on the LIE in the last 3 years, I take it?
Wrong DOT. NYCDOT and NYSDOT are distinct agencies.
Whoops ... I keep forgetting about NYC's penchant for duplicating state agencies to "increase the juice" ... been 30 years. :)
NYC's penchant for duplicating state agencies to "increase the juice"
In this case, the "duplication" is highly warranted.
I shudder to think what would happen with the Albany-based guys, say, repairing the Manhattan Bridge. "Tear it down, build a 16-lane structure for future projected traffic needs with nested cloverleafs on both sides, and get rid of those damn trains, they just get in the way of the cars .... "
Heh. While anything's possible, there's a number of state agencies in New York that aren't duplicated. I'd bet that they probably WOULD remove the trains from all of the bridges, and see that it's done after TUNNELS replaced those connections. But in the economic times ahead, ain't much going to be done other than the swinging of the axes. I alluded to this here last week. I have friends still at the legislature and Division of the Budget ... and I'm hearing MAJOR cuts across the board in excess of 20% *everywhere* including NYFD ... no money from our Shrub means no money for anything else. Feds did diddle for us and now we get to pay the price for voting wrong. But again, I'm headed way off topic so I'll stop. But it'll give you an idea of why I have been SO angry lately with our porcine swine in office ...
It would appear that George Pataki has squeezed as much money out of us in non-income tax ways (e.g. it now cost you a special penality just to show up in Traffice Court). He's got a big budget problem & doesn't want to raise taxes ... can you Tom Gulotta ?
This is happening in the City departments too, it started while Giuliani was still in office & ain't going to get any better. At the MTA/TA they had a big budget hole before any of the problems related to Sept. 11th, it has just gotten worse.
Mr rt__:^)
What's even more spectacular about the Paturkey unit is that last year, there WAS NO budget ... legislature never did it and Paturkey played three monkeys refusing to discuss it. Budget was due in APRIL and it never happened. Now of course, the lacking budget was the result of mid-SEPTEMBER but hey, who's counting?
But not to worry, the surplus as a result of not having a budget is going to be distributed as a corporate tax rebate. Meanwhile, for those who smoke, cigs will go up another 35 cents or so to cover the losses. Does anybody STILL smoke? Maybe a mirror tax. Yeah, that's the ticket. :)
Or, instead of a mirror tax, they could just follow the old, now discontinued, British example and introduce a window tax.
-Robert King
New Jersey calls em 'traffic circles.' Only a dozen or so left in the state....replacements are 'right hand turn only' and take you miles out of the way on highways with LA barriers. The problem is that drivers are so damn stupid that they don't realise if you miss your exit you can go around again. A little one still exists in Netcong NJ that has traffic light controls....a busy afternoon and you may wait five minutes to leave the Circle Mobil gas station. CI Peter
Actually, there are over 70 left in the state. Their goal is to reduce that to 35 within the next five years; most of those 35 will probably remain for quite a long time.
Unfortunately, they're realizing that they did a lousy job with some of the circle eliminations; there are more accidents and longer backups now at the intersection of routes 35 and 36 in Eatontown than there were before the circle was removed. The latest proposal involves an overpass and full cloverleaf.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry, my home-base computer is not online right now so I was not able to post over the weekend.
The $98,000 is apparently needed to match what the DOT would be contributing to the Phase III project -- AFAIK.
BMTman
I'm surprised BHRA hasn't alerted SubTalk to this problem.
I think it would be wise to wait until we hear from either Bob Diamond or Jan Lorenzen on the issue. If nothing shows up from either of the two principals in the BHRA, we can safely assume that the stuff in the press is just regular trash.
I've noticed that several cars in trains of R-32 have been married to cars of different car numbers.
Here are a few seen: 3521-3862, 3777-3444, 3776-3617, 3558-3421, 3645-3521, 3531-3830, 3470-3919, 3600-3503, 3502-3095, 3740-3540, 3521-3862 and R-42 cars 4460-4665 from the Williamsburg Bridge rear ender.
I know there must be other units like this. There is also a train of R-44 like this. Have there been many accidents that make this possible or is it laziness in the yards?
4460 is a modified R-40, not an R-42; this pair is indeed from the Williamsburg Bridge incident.
As to the R-32s, they came back from Morrison-Knudsen mismated. The reason I was given at the time was that some cars required more work than others, so their mates (which didn't need as much work) were mated to each other to get them back in service sooner. They've been that way ever since.
David
So you might say they divorced and re-married..
I've noticed that several cars in trains of R-32 have been married to cars of different car numbers. Here are a few seen: 3521-3862, 3777-3444, 3776-3617, 3558-3421, 3645-3521, 3531-3830, 3470-3919, 3600-3503, 3502-3095, 3740-3540, 3521-3862 and R-42 cars 4460-4665 from the Williamsburg Bridge rear ender.
I know there must be other units like this. There is also a train of R-44 like this. Have there been many accidents that make this possible or is it laziness in the yards?
First, there are several errors in your list. Most noticably, 3095 is not a current revenue car. You also left off 3904 from your list. As to this being an act of laziness, I assure you, unmating and re-mating of cars is not something lazy people do. The mis-mating of cars may be due to accidents but just as often, it's necessary to keep a maximum number of revenue cars in service when a car is heavily damaged due to mechanical/electrical failure or even vandalism (and the mate is not damaged.
>>and R-42 cars 4460-4665 from the Williamsburg Bridge rear ender.<<
Is this the set that had an R-40MOD front replacing the R-40SLANT front ?
I heard the nickname "Frankenslant" mentioned a while back.
Bill "Newkirk"
That was me, that was #4461 itself, the R40M actually involved in the Williamsburg Bridge accident of June 5, 1995. She is now He, and wears the shovel nose of #4260, whose August 15, 1994 crash in tunnel west of 9th Avenue put him out of action. #4260 is supposed to be the new number, and the mate will be #4259, once she gets her left eye fixed and sheet metal patched up.
I haven't heard as to how this project is doing in some time.
wayne
THey are unofficially know as BASTARDS.
I WILL DO IT AGAIN, here is THE ODD COUPLES LIST.
R32 MISMATCHED PAIRS ("Odd Couples")
In order, lowest even number to highest
--------------------------------------------------------
3348 - 3549 (note A)
3382 - 3831
3418 - 3863
3420 - 3645
3444 - 3777
3468 - 3445
3470 - 3919
3502 - 3905
3520 - 3891
3530 - 3741
3548 - 3593
3558 - 3421
3592 - 3469
3600 - 3503
3628 - 3669 (note B)
3644 - 3621
3650 - 3767
3658 - 3471
3740 - 3419
3776 - 3617
3830 - 3531
3862 - 3521
3890 - 3383
3904 - 3559
3918 - 3601
Note A - 3348 originally numbered 3659, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit
Note B - 3669 originally numbered 3668, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit; original 3669 wrecked 12-01-74; 3629 wrecked 5-71.
Thanks. I needed the list because on of my conductor friends asked me for it. I looked in the FAQ and as I matched them up, noticed that about 4 mis-mates were not listed.
The R44 ODD BUNCHES are as follows:
5316-5317-5405-5318
5246-5247-5337-5336
5478-5479-5403-5404
5302-5303-5263-5262
5260-5261-5277-5276
Out of service:
5402, 5283-5285-5284
Wrecked:
5282
Scraped:
5319
wayne
3740-3540 and 3645-3521 are not physically possible, re-check your numbers.
I have the correct ones, posted earlier.
wayne
What ever happened to that exit in the celler of A&S (now Macy's) that exited into Hoyt street. I remember how when a youngster watching old R-type cars passing. When did the store do away with that exit?
That exit has been closed for years, at least since the mid-1980s.
David
I remember that exit. I may be misremembering, but I think it also offered a pass-under.
I also remember Hoyt St before and after the rehab. Before, it was just possible that it was the *ugliest* station in the system, a complete wreck. In comparison to before, after was a miracle.
The Abraham and Straus building is as grand as they come. Last time I was there, it had fallen on hard times; they'd shut down a whole floor. Didn't know it had become a Macy's.
I have fond memories of the old A&S store on Fulton St. in Brooklyn. My mother used to take us shopping there when we were kids.
I got over my fear of escalators (well deserved, after getting my hand caught in one when I was 5) in that store.
-- Ed Sachs
I had fond memories of it too--it was almost as grand as Macy's Herald Sq., and am now disgusted that Macy's has left it in its bankrupt state. It's not 1 floor that is closed, it's 3-- 6th-8th. This started in the 70's when there was some flood damage on 8 and A&S didn't uave the money to repair it. Then 6 and 7 eventually closed to merhandise (they have refunds or something there; otherwise, it is office and storage. Storage used to be in the building across the street; furniture was on the ground floor under the parking lot building across Hoyt, and there qwas also retail space on the 4th floor, connected by a bridge over Hoty. That is now stock space. Where McDonald's is used to be a nut store or something that was connected indoors to the men's dept.
Everything remains scaled down, and around Christmas time it is so cluttered, esp. on the ground floor, and with all that former retail space upstairs. Why is "The Cellar" still on the 5th (now the top) floor where A & S had it? There used to be a huge tree with giant ornaments hung from the ceiling of the elevator bank on the ground floor Christmas time, but when I stop by in the fall, counters have been set up on one whole side, and only about 2 cars run. It is horrible, especially compared to Macy's in Manhattan. The people are treated like cattle, and I asked a manager why they wouldn't restore it and make it as good as Herald Sq., and he says "that store is a 'different animal'", and that they didn't want to spend the money. I guess when downtown Brooklyn really comes back, and is no longer predominated by one class of people, then they will rebuild it back. (I guess we're lucky they didn't close it like the others).
Niw that is it's Macy's, do they still use those cool elevators in the old A&S building.
Yes, there was an underpass to go to the Manhattan-bound platform of the station. I too loved as a kid to go to the old A&S. My aunt used to take me there a lot.
That exit has been closed for years, at least since the mid-1980s.
But when K-Mart opened its store between Broadway and Lafayette at 8th Street a few years ago, it actually reopened the entrance to the downtown platform of Astor Place on the east side IRT.
Win one, lose one.
I see where financially troubled K-Mart is looking at shutting several hundered stores in the near future. I don't know if Astor Place is on the "low performing" list, but if you want to use that subway entrance, I say now is probably a better time than later...
From my last job as a vendor, KMart Astor, 34th and Coop City rated in the highest levels of value. Astor may look pretty seemy at times but it has a captive NYU customer base. CI Peter
What should I do if I, hypothetically of course, found that technical information I gave someone was used in the lead article, written by that person, in a transit fan's club newsletter and I'm not mentioned in the acknowledgments as a source?
Thanks in advance,
Robert King
Chalk it up to experience, unless they copied it word-for-word from the document you gave them. Even if they did, you probably can't do anything, since they didn't profit financially from it, but you might be able to make a fair fuss with the newsletter editor.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
( Hypothetically, of course )
What was the understanding under which you gave the material? Did you assume it would be used and you would be credited?
If that were the circumstance with me, I suppose I would first tell the person politely that he was welcome to use the material, but I expected to be credited. This should lead to a warm apology, maybe an explanation that you were inadvertently omitted, and the commitment to make it up to you in no uncertain terms in the next issue of the newsletter.
If you didn't expect the material to be used, or if the person refuses to credit you, it gets more complicated.
I didn't expect my information to be used at all, I was surprised to see it in the article in the first place. I gave the information to the article's author during two rather detailed conversations we had so not all of it appeared in the article. What was there was very slightly rephrased to fit into the article and to be more palatable to a less technically oriented audience.
- My understanding at the time I gave out the information was that it was just a casual conversation between the two of us. It certainly wasn't an interview of any kind and no mention was ever made that the possibility of my information being used in an article even existed. I thought it was just an acquaintance being personally curious about subway car technology and asking questions. Since we discussed several related other topics in fairly good detail (again, I'm providing information and answering questions) at the same time, I didn't realise that I may have been acting as a source for the newsletter. So, it came as a total surprise to see it in the article, and it was when I read the article for the first time that I discovered that my information had been put to use - I certainly did not expect it at all.
- It already is much, much more complicated anyways. Another source for other (historical) information used in the article was properly cited so based on other events in December (it was discovered that I'm friends with a person who is on the official unofficial club shitlist) I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that this is some kind of 'revenge'. What happened in December was like merging George Orwell and Frank Kafkha and it involved the whole executive committee of this club. Unfortunately, the newsletter editor sits on this governing committee. Getting this sorted out through the newsletter editor or even the whole governing body of the club seems to be a nonstarting proposition and I suspect I'm about to be totally screwed over again.
Thanks for your help,
Robert King
Understood. Do you feel this use of your material compromises you in some way, other than the rudeness of it? Had you planned to use it yourself? Is this newsletter widely disseminated?
What would be a satisfactory conclusion for you?
(If you reply tonite, I will read it tomorrow)
The newsletter is given to around 200 people (give or take quite a bit - that figure is approximate at best). I'm hoping I can get a little printed notice in the February edition (January should already be done and printed up if it's going to be on time for Monday's meeting) mentioning me as a source that went unmentioned in the credits at the bottom of the original article. This would also give the author an opportunity to fix an incorrect date in a picture caption in the same article.
I'm planning to raise the issue on Monday for sure and we'll see what happens...
-Robert King
>>> I gave the information to the article's author during two rather detailed conversations we had so not all of it appeared in the article. What was there was very slightly rephrased to fit into the article and to be more palatable to a less technically oriented audience. <<<
Maybe I'm missing something, but what you describe seems like basic research for an article, and certainly not plagiarism. The writer has obtained technical information from a knowledgeable source (you), and interpreted the information for his intended audience. The more technical the information, the closer to exactly what you said would be in the article. The failure to give you credit in the acknowledgments is impolite and unprofessional, but certainly not actionable.
It would be different if you provided proprietary information in confidence, such as the galley proofs of a soon to be published book, or your formula for turning lead into gold.
Tom
or your formula for turning lead into gold
Tom, what is your formula for turning lead into gold? I promise I won't tell anyone else. Please?
>>> what is your formula for turning lead into gold? <<<
Sorry, I can't let you know that until I get the patents locked in. But I think Enron will be willing to sell you futures on the output of the process. :-)
Tom
How come there were never plans to connect the Eastern Division with the Fulton Street Line. I can see that a connection can be made by the way of the old Fulton Street Interchange near Atlantic Ave. As the Canarsie Line rises up to Broadway Junction there is the Fulton Street El that goes under it. From the point the el descends. They could make a connection to the tunnel to connect to the Fulton St Subway.
That would be nice. Unfortunately, they're in the process of demolishing the huge complex at Atlantic Av.
-Stef
I rode on the "L" line the other week. It doesn't look like they're demolishing anything. They did start did they?
Why of course. When all is said and done, a two track structure will remain....
Regards,
Stef
Apparently you're not familiar with Broadway Junction. Extensive demolition was already done of the concrete part of the structure and much roadbed has been removed.
BMTman
As the Canarsie Line rises up to Broadway Junction there is the Fulton Street El that goes under it. From the point the el descends.
Ahhhh, Gary....I hate to tell you this, but that ain't the Fulton St. El! That's the IRT line to New Lots! The Fulton Elevated tracks in that area came down around 1956.
If you have my book, see the schematic of what the area once looked like on P. 65.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Peter: I'm afraid to say it but you're mistaken. The abandoned steelwork between Broadway Juction and Atlantic Avenue is indeed the remains of the Fulton Street El. The IRT Livonia Avenue Line is further south crossing the Canrsie Line at Livonia Avenue Station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The abandoned steelwork between Broadway Juction and Atlantic Avenue is indeed the remains of the Fulton Street El
Well, that plus the section along Liberty Avenue in Queens that the (A) uses.
:-) Andrew
Peter: I'm afraid to say it but you're mistaken. The abandoned steelwork between Broadway Juction and Atlantic Avenue is indeed the remains of the Fulton Street El. The IRT Livonia Avenue Line is further south crossing the Canrsie Line at Livonia Avenue Station.
I was looking at it coming from the south, as I suspected that was the intent of the original poster, but I guess you could interpret it that way as well. Unfortunatley, though, there's nothing left of the K tracks at Atlantic...everything's been ripped out. Yes, the end of the A (also K tracks) is the last vestige of the Fulton El.
I think all that's left is the Y2 yard lead, a little bit of K1 that will become P2 shortly and the recently re-activated trackway over Sneideker Ave. that is temporarily in use for the Manhattan-bound service.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Larry, you are quite right.
To Peter: I thought since you're 'The Trackman' you'd be more in the know here...
Anyhow, the old Fulton tracks end in a stub with a corrugated-type building structure sitting on the end at Van Sinderin and Fulton (you can see it from the street or from the Canarsie soundbound platform at B'way Junction).
BMTman
I had a totally differnent but interesting idea the other day whilst looking at the track maps.
As with the Queens Blvd line, the IND originally desinged the Fulton subway so that only the express would continue to Manhattan. The local would terminate at Court, now the NYC Transit Museum. This is why the local and express merge into the same tracks between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Chambers/WTC. Now the (A) and (C) combined aren't a great number of trains per hour, and I know not whether this poses a problem, but if it does, I can think of a potential solution based on that used on Queens Blvd:
Just as the Queens Blvd local tracks were connected to the BMT nearby (providing the routing now used for the (R), perhaps there could be a connection between the Fulton local tracks cutting off between Hoyt and the Transit Museum, and connecting with the BMT heading into the Montague Tunnel. Then the (M) could take the place of the (C) as the Fulton St. local. The (C) could terminate with the (E) in lower Manhattan.
The advantages: The Fulton express could operate more trains per hour (should this ever be needed) without any regard to what the local is doing, and vice-versa. Furthermore the would be greater choice from Fulton as to where to go in Manhattan. It would be especially useful if the Nassau St. line were incorporated into the Second Ave line.
Now, I'm not sure whether this is feasible. The two lines look close on the track map, but then I do not think that is perfectly to scale geographically. Also I don't know if there's enough track between Hoyt and Court to put a junction in.
Even if it were technically feasible, I would place this low on the priority list compared with such projects as Seccond Ave or Eastern Queens extensions. It's just a thought.
:-) Andrew
I've had similar thoughts, and also discard them as too expensive, and competing with too many other, worthier projects.
One serious thought, tho', is working out a plan for one-way rush hour flows. This would involve some new construction, some new connections, but certainly not a new East River tunnel. I suspect we could get an increase in rush hour service between B'lyn and Manhattan of up to 30 tph -- without building a new East River connection, and without having a pileup of trains with no where to go at the end of the line.
a line through Court st to the BMT Broadway line, and a flying juntion at te world trade center[cortlandt st] to the IND 8th ave local.
I've posted on this exact plan before. It's actually my favorite idea, and if not 'cheap', it's certainly cheaper than a new East River tunnel.
The Montague line from east of DeKalb (after Atlantic & Pacific) to Whitehall would run one-way during rush, to Manhattan in the AM, from in the PM. Service to Broad St would be unaffected. Service to Whitehall would be doubled.
This would not work unless a connection is made to the 8Av local tracks, probably under the current BMT Cortlandt station, with a merge at Rector (it ideally would be three tracks all they way to Whitehall). Half of the 8Av service would turn back, either at a 3 track station under the BMT Cortlandt station, or at Whitehall; half o the Broadway service would turn back at the lower level of City Hall station. The extra service would pile into the Jamaica yards or tracks in the outer reaches of the Queens IND.
I've not fully worked out what would have to be done in Brooklyn, tho' it's clearly doable. What I write here might have some problems with it -- and I'd appreciate input.
4th Av Montague trains would switch to the opposite track past Pacific but before DeKalb during AM rush. All Brighton trains would go via Montague. AM from-Manhattan 6Av trains would provide CI service, while PM to Manhattan would also go via 6Av.
At Pacific St., during AM rush, some returning-from-Mahattan bridge trains would switch to the local track, while during the PM rush, northbound local trains would switch to the express track and thence go via the bridge.
This requires lots of extra trains, and a place to store them at the end of the line (which, as I've said, would be the Jamaica or CI yards). I see no conflicts in Manhattan. This alone increases peak-flow Brooklyn service by about 15 tph. I wonder if something even fancier can be done with the bridge tracks, allowing another 15 tph.
Im gonna do the math right now as far as train per hour goes,...wish me luck...
This would not work unless a connection is made to the 8Av local tracks, probably under the current BMT Cortlandt station, with a merge at Rector (it ideally would be three tracks all they way to Whitehall).
I'll leave the TPH calcs and equipment allocation to you guys. I'm just an infrastructure guy.
But for the mechanics of a combined IND/BMT station all wrapped into the WTC rebuild), see my post on WTC transit: likely & possible (long-ish) from a couple weeks ago, and subsequent thread.
If Second Ave gets plugged into Nassau down the road, though, that might eliminate the spare capacity I think you're counting on. Thoughts?
The 8Av/BMT Cortlandt connection would be unnecessary if the 2Av were sent to Broad St. You'd send all the service to B'lyn, and leave the R as it is.
The 8Av suggestion, however, is doable considerably sooner and considerably cheaper than the 2nd Av. I don't see the 2Av getting to Broad St for a good 20 years, if ever. And with the 8Av connection made, the Water St alignment becomes far more logical.
I hardly think the Fulton St. line needs another connection to Manhattan. If the C cannot handle it's current ridership, increased headways or 600' trains make much more sense.
If the C cannot handle it's current ridership, increased headways ... make much more sense.
Hey! You could be a politician! Yeah, let's cram them all into less space!
The C is hardly crammed, and it runs short trains. I believe in allocating precious transit resources to projects that have a real necessity.
a line through Court st to the BMT Broadway line, and a flying juntion at te world trade center[cortlandt st] to the IND 8th ave local. that would free up the space needed for the A. Or connect the local out side Hoyt st to the F [ALSO ON TH OPUTSIDE TRACKS VIA FLYING JUCTION]and run them up to West 4th street...
1. The C line is more preferable to Fulton St. local riders than the M is, as the C makes all the stops the A does.
2. Current C service is adequate. No need to increase capacity here.
3. The C & E could not both terminate in Manhattan without a huge logjam.
I've wondered about this myself. Can the Jamaica Ave el be upgraded to 600 foot platforms? You'd have a replacement for the Crescent St el ramping up someplace like Elderts to Jamaica Av.
But to have any kind of reasonable thru service, you'd also have to create a second connection, to either the Eastern District line, or to the Broadway el; would 480 foot trains to Rockway or Lefferts be manageable?
But, for all the money this would cost, there are other projects which are more deserving.
Well, given the proper amount of money and available railcars, they could build a ramp to connect the Broadway el east of B'way Junction with the IND tracks between East New York and Liberty Ave. Then they could run the V via the Broadway el, Chrystie St. connection and the Willie B to Lefferts, and let all of the A trains them go to the Rockaways. Or if there was a problem extending the el platforms to 600 feet for the V, then the V and C could swap tracks south of West Fourth, and the C, using only 4800-foot trains, could run via the Broadway el to Lefferts while the V runs Fulton local to Euclid.
If the Broadway el express track was used for a peak direction express the way the express track on the Flushing line is, and if the V or C also ran express between East New York and Euclid, enough time could be cut off of the run from Lefferts to midtown Manhattan -- by avoiding the long trip southwest to downtown Brooklyn and lower Manhattan -- to make the route viable. Lefferts passengers would only have five stops between Euclid and West Fourth Street -- Broadway Junction, Myrtle, Marcy, Essex and B'way-Lafayette, compaired with the nine stops the A train currently makes between Euclid and West Fourth.
The MTA definitely has more pressing needs than to build an East New York connection, but I think unlike the KK service, this route actually would have a chance to attract passengers, especially during rush hour.
There are much simpler ways of getting the (V) to Liberty/Lefferts. It could switch from 6th/Culver to 8th/Fulton at either West 4th or Jay.
:-) Andrew
But doing it that way would create a situation where three lines would be sharing one track -- the A, C and V either from West Fourth to Hoyt or between Jay and Hoyt, which would force a cutback in the number of TPH on one or all three of the lines.
Doing it the other way would avoid having more than two different routes on one track at the same time. (You would probably have to zap the Z to oblivion to make room for the V or C to share trackage with the M and J trains between Marcy and Essex, but the combined number of J and M trains and V or C per hour would be a lot less than the combined number of A, C and V trains).
Can the Jamaica Ave el be upgraded to 600 foot platforms?
Easily. In fact, Elderts Lane is already 600' long.
The platforms at Elderts Lane are 546 feet long. Woodhaven Boulevard's platforms, however, are 596 feet long.
David
How long is Van Siclen? I know there is alot of slack past the 8 car marker there. (Thank goodness. It is on a downgrade and easy to miss the mark, but you'll still be on the platform.)
The information I have says Van Siclen Avenue is 554 feet long.
David
I refuse to believe Eldert's lane is shorter than Woodhaven Blvd. Better check those numbers again.
Those are the numbers I've got. They're from an internal 1982 NYCTA publication that I was given years ago. It is possible that work was done on the platforms at Elderts Lane (now called 75th Street, right?) to increase their length (though probably not their USABLE length -- after all, why bother?) -- maybe a Central Instrument Room (for signals) or something was built there (haven't been through there lately) in the intervening years.
David
After further thought, it's possible Woodhaven Blvd is longer because it has a curved platform, which, if straightened out, could be much longer than it looks. I always assumed Eldert's Lane was longer because it's the only station which is extended beyond the edge of it's northern mezzanine.
A pipe dream - looks good on paper, but:
-What purpose would this connection serve? The Fulton, Broadway, and Canarsie Lines have a universal transfer at Broadway Junction, and none of these lines is overcrowded in the way the Lex or Queens Blvd. lines are.
-The physical connection itself looks simple on a map but in reality would be very expensive and difficult. A steep grade would be required to carry tracks from the elevated into the Fulton Street subway. Major interlockings would be needed on the el and in the subway tunnel. The subway tunnel twists south and east after leaving Broadway- East NY station heading towards Lefferts - so the actual connection would be extremely difficult to construct.
but it also passes right under the J line between the EASTERN PKY STATION and the Buss depot on Jamaica ave,then turns south on penn... past alabama ave, so it crosses this route 3 times. at any one of these locations, a connection could be built....
My question remains - what purpose would this connection serve?
And my point remains - building any connection between two rail lines that are at different grade levels requires expensive civil construction and expensive signal and track work at each new junction. And of course, the grades may be too steep for efficient train operation.
I guess they should just leave it as a trip down the stairs, or very long escalators there.
A direct connection between South Jamaica and Downtown Brooklyn,Manhattan for one,without changing trains or taking the higher fare LIRR. Thats what the bellmouths were put there for in the first place,to run trains under Jamaica ave to Cypress hills,and ramp up to the old Jamaica el......and they could still be placed even at EAST NEW YORK ,WITHOUT THE GRADES BEING AS STEP AS YOU [MY FRIEND ]SUGESTED.. :^)
The physical connection itself looks simple on a map but in reality would be very expensive and difficult. A steep grade would be required to carry tracks from the elevated into the Fulton Street subway. Major interlockings would be needed on the el and in the subway tunnel. The subway tunnel twists south and east after leaving Broadway- East NY station heading towards Lefferts - so the actual connection would be extremely difficult to construct.
It might even be easier at least practically (NOT politically) to restore the Fulton El from Atlantic to Grant and stop the destruction of Atlantic in the process.
Pipe dream still, however.
How come there were never plans to connect the Eastern Division with the Fulton Street Line.
There was a plan to connect the eastern division to the Fulton St line, and it was completed and opened in 1956. Remember, the Liberty Ave elevated portion of the A line was once part of the eastern division.
There were bellmouths built on the line east of ENY planned to connect to the Jamaica line. Guess it never materialized.
As long as we are wishing,
1) Extend the platforms from Cypress Hills to Jamaica Center from what ever they are now to 660 ft. Add Express track between the same stations.
2) Build an Express track from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway along Jamaica Ave. using the Airtrain concret type construction.
3) connect the Fulton Local tracks via the Bellmouths, under the ENY Yard and up to interlock with the New Express track on Jamaica Ave.
You get express Track from Jamacica to Manhattan. With Essex/6th ave connection options also available.
With Fulton Ave connection Felexibility for emergency GO is available.
avid
Subtalk Field Trip to Washington, DC. via Cleveland.
Alex Lu . lexcie@mit.edu . 73 Morrison Ave., Somerville MA 02144-2319
On January 10, 2002, two members of the Subtalk community (Lexcie and Jersey Mike) embarked on a 38-hour, 800-mile cruise from Philadelphia, PA to Washington, DC via Cleveland, OH. Taking advantage of Amtrak's two-for-one winter sale and a RailSale fare for $11.70 one-way between Philadelphia and Cleveland, they paid a grand total of $43.20 each for the cruise. The routing was:
#43 "The Pennsylvanian" - PHL to CLE, 6.35am on Thursday
#30 "The Capitol Limited" - CLE to WAS, 2.05am on Friday
#148 - WAS to PHL, 3.10pm on Friday. An extra $42!
Due to the sparsity of SEPTA Subway division services at 6am, instead of using the usual PATCO/SEPTA combination to get to 30th Street Station, we decided to take the NJ Transit Atlantic City Commuter Rail line, which gave us a one-seat ride to 30th Street. In any case, I was unamused with SEPTA Regional Rail division whose conductor charged me a fare between 30th Street and Market East on an earlier occasion - transfers are supposed to be free with an Amtrak ticket! The Atlantic City Commuter Rail line saw the operation of a three-coach "ghetto" commuter equipment (Comet IB coaches converted from St Louis Car Company's self-propelled vehicles) with a single GP-40 type unit (there was a railfan view off the back). We got to 30th Street in time for Train #100, the 06.15 Metroliner, as well as our own Amtrak Freight Train #43 - quite a convenient connexion for commuters traveling from NJTransit area to other parts of the Northeast Corridor.
Amtrak Freight Train #43 did not arrive until around 7am; in typical fashion, the departure status board flipped through "on-time, 15 min delay, 30 min delay" before we were able to board. At the station, we met one guy who worked for a ultrasonic rail testing contractor. Knowing my Boston connexion, he started to tell me how much of a joke he thought Guildford Rail System was - many track defects, apparently, although not as bad as some of the secondaries I've heard about in Maryland. Once the consist arrived, we were swiftly boarded. Two Genesis locomotives, in fresh Amtrak Acela paint, hauled one head-end boxcar, no baggage car, one horizon coach in phase III, one NEC-sector Amfleet I Cafe in Acela Regional colours (with the business class section closed off), one ExpressTrek refridgated boxcar, a few more ordinary boxcars, and four intermodal trailers-on-railroad-truck trailers. The station dwell time was less than 5 minutes (That must be a record in 30th Street) and we were off shortly after 7am with a swift acceleration. Mike questioned a P42's ability to achieve such acceleration, but, of course, 8,400 horses weren't hauling anything particularly heavy!
The trip was relatively uneventful until Harrisburg - the service appear to have been used as a high-speed Keystone service by commuters, resulting in a relatively high loading factor. At Harrisburg, the train emptied out. The 20-minute layover at Harrisburg resulted in about 12 intermodal trailers being added to the end of Amtrak Freight Train #43 - count 'em, that's 16 intermodal trailers being carried in addition to many boxcars. Only one of the trailers were branded "Amtrak" with a phase IV paint scheme; the rest were plain white: some were AMTZ, the majority were Triple Crown. Freight action being fairly quiet, we were given the highball on time by the Norfolk Southern dispatchers; but this also meant we did not get any pictures of coal trains on the adjacent Harrisburg Line.
I slept most of the way from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, having been on the Pennsylvania Main Line more times than I care to remember. Mike made various observations with regard to the number of signals replaced, etc., but I was too tired to take notice. I ate lots of sandwiches, which was good. I did wake up for the Horseshoe curve - because of the length of our train, and the fact that we were not eclipsed by any freight trains (since the Conrail sellup, the PRR main had been less busy), I got a pretty good view. One trip down memory lane was the passing visit to Greensburg, PA, where I was stuck for 16 hours one time due to an NS TOFC derailment, but that's another story. During the run out to Pittsburgh, we passed at least three freights - including some intermodals. It was nice to know that NS is finally taking passenger train on-time performance seriously, but of course, they had their own reasons to do so. Remember those Triple Crown trailers we saw at Harrisburg?
After Pittsburgh, we were diverted onto the NS Fort Wayne line over the Beaver Falls flyover. It was kinda cool to see the other line disappear into the ground and cross under you - kinda like flying, right? That's what flying junctions are for, says PRR! Beaver Falls, of course, is the last flying junction that PRR built. We stopped briefly at Alliance, OH, then we ran into some delays. Single track was in operation with a 25mph speed restriction because of some track work. This time, we did not get so lucky, and had to wait for two intermodals to pass in the opposite direction. Although Mike complained shortly after we left Philadelphia that he didn't "pay $11.70 to ride in a commuter car" (funny line of the trip), two feature of the horizon coach came in very handy: (1) there was no light glare on the inside of the windows, unlike in an Amfleet, and (2) the fact that the passenger doors opened. Yup - unlike those NEC Amfleets, the doors can be manually operated. We were able to wave to the freight engineers as they went past - and of course, take pictures of them, whilst strictly maintaining the three-point rule. Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention, we threw a half-mushed peach onto the NS main track as the horizon had no end door. Aside from saving landfill space Mike landed it directly onto of the rail between the express and Horizon car.
As we progressed past the track work, we waved to the track workers. Mike mumbled something about how all the railroaders think of Amtraks as party trains - well, it's not too far from the truth, except in the Northeast Corridor. I guess that's the reason why I was never too interested in riding trains on the NEC - at least, less so than elsewhere in the country. Shortly thereafter, we arrived in Cleveland, and successfully detrained without the conductor yelling at us. One coach attendent did discover (after Alliance) that we were standing in the vestibule and proceeded to lock the vestibule door (which of course prevented us from opening the external doors), but by that time it was pretty dark anyway so it didn't really matter.
At Cleveland, we went out and took some night photos of buildings. I was trying my first reel of 800 speed film and at the same time was commenting to Mike about how clean the city was. Back in 1998, in Cleveland OH, was where I decided that I was going to move here. We went to Tower City downtown (the old Cleveland Union Terminal), and discovered that nothing was open, so we went for a joyride on the Red Line to the airport. The actual cars were very, very flimsy - they look like subway cars but had windows which bowed in and out as the car rattled and moved. These windows were obvious not FRA Part 223 compliant, were they? The Red Line was much more like an interurban than a real subway. We got to the airport, when the T/O promptly disappeared whilst we stayed on the train. She came back later, drove the train back, and just before Tower City when Mike went to stand at the front of the car, she complained to us about not having "paid a fare" at the airport. Wait. We stayed within fare control. Actually, within the vehicle. So Tower City to Tower City via Airport was not a valid routing on the Cleveland Red Line? No wonder nobody rides it. The T/Os have such an attitude problem. I was reading this "Rider's Digest" publication on the train which talked about service being cut back. Later on, when we were sitting in the Waterfront watching trains, some 7 RTA trains pulled past with no-one on board. Yup - zero riders; and the town itself was also surprisingly empty. I guess Cleveland isn't really a transit city.
The Amtrak Station at Cleveland was closed between 6pm and midnight, thus we were relegated to standing on the platform watching trains. I don't know if my pictures of intermodal trains running on the NS Chicago Line at 1/2 second exposures came out, but if not we did at least observe the traffic pattern in that area. Since the Conrail split up, the former NYC main was divided between two different owners. This mean that the Selkirk-Chicago through intermodal routing now goes by CSX Water Level Route up to a point east of Cleveland Waterfront Station (QUAKER) and is routed via the CSX Short Line onto the CSX Indianapolis Line (at BEREA), thus following the ex-B&O Main to Chicago (change at WILLARD). The ex-Conrail traffic from the Philadelphia area is routed via the ex-PRR Main onto the NS Chicago Line (ex-NYC main) at a point west of Cleveland Waterfront Station (DB or DRAWBRIDGE [(m)(x)(d)]). The result is the virtual abandonment of a section of Conrail's main line from QUAKER to DRAWBRIDGE. To facilitate the new routings, CSX has double-tracked both the Short Line and the Indianapolis Line. Still, there appears to be more congestion down the Western Ohio end of the ex-B&O Main, which may partially be explained by the funneling of the traffic from two areas onto the old B&O. For its role in this play, NS installed cab signals on the Cleveland line and now runs the line w/o fixed wayside signals.
After the Amtrak guys came to open the door at 11.30pm, we went inside to avoid the freezing winds, when Mike promptly went to sleep on the floor in the station! He was a lot more tired than I was, having gotten no sleep the previous night and on the Pennsylvanian. The Capitol Limited eventually arrived at 2.05am (yay! On-time performance into Cleveland). After boarding, Mike went to sleep, and then was mad at me after I didn't wake him up at Pittsburgh in order to observe the B&O Main. I woke up briefly at Pittsburgh and woke him up, he went back to sleep, so did I, and we didn't get up until Connellsville, PA. Oops! Nonetheless, we headed to the diner to wake-up with an Amtrak breakfast and very very strong B&O "morning brew" koffee. Well, Mike didn't have that; he was too smart, he went for the Cranberry Juice instead. Again I thought the Amtrak Breakfast was well impressive and well worth the $9.50 I paid for it.
On the B&O, we were able to take lots of pictures of position light signals, in addition to taking some "out the window" shots as we overtook some freight trains. Mike thought this was hilarious, but I guess this is standard procedures for those of us who take railfan pictures semi-seriously. Heh.
On the B&O, the scenery was quite positively stunning. I had already visited the ex-B&O at one location - Ohio Pyle, PA, where I went with a friend one time to go walk around a trail, or something. We saw one coal train that time. I vaguely got a glance of that town when we were sitting in the diner but as we passed over Sand Patch, I was able to get lots of photographs of really quite impressive scenery of the Potomac River. It had been snowing there for the past few days and some parts of the river were covered in white snow (on top of ice) whilst other parts were still flowing. The lack of leaves on the trees really helped my photographic endeavours too. It was a nice location - must go out there again sometime.
We got to Washington about 1/2 hour down due to congestion on the mainline within the Washington Metro Area (we were still on-time at Rockville, MD). Various pictures of equipment was taken in the yard at Washington Union Station - including various Sounder Commuter Rail equipment which are on lease to Virginia Railway Express ("SOUNDERX cars" as Mike called them). Mike had the misfortune of having his Camera battery die just as we entered the yard. We ate Chinese Fude, ran out of time, and then headed back to Philadelphia.. The most important thing that we learned at Washington was once you arrive DO NOT LEAVE FARE CONTROL. Yes, DC Union has fare control in that they only let ticketed passengers past the "gates" and onto the platform area and you need to have a ticket to a boarding train, not just any one train. However, once you are let on the platform area you can pretty much wander around as you please. If you do leave fare control your best bet is to re-enter through Gate A and head left onto the MARC platforms and then cross between platforms down by K tower. Amtrak personel are usually guarding the terminal end. There was a long line for out 3:05 Unreserved train and it stretched out of the gate area and down the mall to the B Dalton bookstore. Starting at the end of this line we just walked to the lead car of the train and found it virtually empty. We got two of the facing 4-seaters to ourselves while later parts of the train were SRO.
The ride up was pretty mundane except for seeing a burned out Amfleet in the DC coach yard. Anyone know the story behind this? There were also some old vintage MetroLiners in PC colours in the Wilmington Shop yard.
Posted about it yesterday, they had a blurb about it in the Post.
I only just saw WATAMAGOAGH's message:
A small fire in the Ivy City Yard damaged one car according to the Washington Post on page B3 of today's paper. Not too many details, the article was about 4 lines. Cause under investigation.
So it must be the Ivy City Yard we saw? The car was an Amfleet Cafe Car. Looks like the fire took out the windows on the far side (couldn't tell if it was business class end or the normal end). The pictures aren't out yet but will have more details once the pictures are out. The fire originated from inside the car.
Lexcie
They are hiring engieers and conducters and towers.
Any idea how they pay?
No the jobs are not listed on their site.
PA, PATH, MetroNorth and LIRR are all part of our system. We are state employees of record BUT MTA runs under city rules (DCAS.) So, only MTA posts the positions with fixed salaries...the others ask use for our requirements. My brother, get your experience and put in your time...MTA is the 'Harvard' of mass transit. CI Peter
LIRR is Harvard and MTA is Pace
OK...I'll buy that. Mebbe Pace is more new tech than Harvard...at least we have the worlds respect. SwedSub posted that his system is based upon ours...problem is that they used new signals and Bomba tech to MAKE TRAINS STOP. So my brother, if we get nuked by TWU cuz we are newbies/probies...we go to PA/PATH/MetroNorth/LIRR. You can operate a train and I can make it go...our experience is of value. Just think that we were paid to learn an entirely new skill outside of our private industry work experience. We are RTO/CED, we are the NEW DIRECTION...we make trains run and go. TA needs us, TA work is EXCELLENT work. Abandon us and who will wind up the rubber band to make the trainset go down the tracks??? CI Peter
Er PACE is not accredited.
At the reporting center they put a stack of PATH job opportunity ads in front of us.
Do they PAY? Or is it anohter SIRT?
That's the problem.......what do these jobs pay??? DCAS is obligated by city law to post salaries and hours. At least if we lost our employment we have training, experience and have carried responsibility. I'll try to get to someone from my old work about MetroNorth....he's a linesman making 17 bucks an hour. Very likely we make top bucks in our positions. The TA gets a bargain with us...we are willing and eager for the work, any work. Slackers with seniority bask in the light of a third rail arc...dead wood with limited communications skills cost the system time and money.
See the C/R on the LIRR make as much as a T/O in MTA and the engineers makes 20%+ more. They are actually asking for two years experience preferred but I think they will take one.
If you know things are better and the salary is too....go for it. I'm 47 years old...I left my employment of 21 years with nothing.
I never knew about this work...I didn't know I could do this work.
You might find that the eight hour day is harder. Experience and confidence make for an easy day. Four months ago...what did i know?? The day I could look my car desk sup in the face and say 'I can do this work' was my graduation. CI Peter
>>>>>>>At the reporting center they put a stack of PATH job opportunity ads in front of us.
Grab one and let me know what's up ok? PATH pays an absolute mint. C/R's make $28 an hour there. Don't know how long it takes to reach top pay though. If MTA is "Harvard", then PATH is "Oxford".
Are you nuts? In two years you will be a TD or TSS.
Wage freezes, hiring freezes, I can see the point. One of the things about "state employment" is those raises look big for a few years. Then you hit what is called "top of pay grade" where all you can look forward to is "union incrementals" ... NYS and NYC ain't got the money anymore, and DC ain't about to cough up crap while they pay for new railroad service in Texas that can't even draw armadillers as passengers. Bottom line, if you've hit the top of your pay grade, it ain't going to be going up. New Jersey doesn't have to pay the expenses of rebuilding New York and likely will pay better.
New York didn't HAVE to be a sinking ship, but the good old republican congress gave us the high, hard wet one ...
I'm always willing to keep my options open. Sure I may not take it, but if I can drive a train for $31 an hour with a better pension, then maybe I'll pass up TD or TSS.
I bet they have no where near the amount of cab time than we do.
send scannable resume to 201-714-9731 for extra engineer switching
Wannabe, if you can, please send me what it says on the paper in regards to qualifications, requirements, etc. You can e-mail it to me if you wish.
I should say that 2/3 of our system are still equipped with the old relay based signaling system, and that part of the subway works just fine. And there is no plans to replace it for the time being anyway. Even that old system incorporates “In cab signaling” and performs very well for it’s age.
SweSub
We don't have in cab signalling...the plan for the R143 Kawasaki was to have CBTC and is on hold. The signal system is almost all relay here too...biggest problem is antique brittle wiring. CI Peter
The form of cab signalling used here in Stockholm (i.e., the older form used on the majority of the system now) is very simple in concept and execution.
AIUI, carborne equipment picks up (mumble...something...A/C frequency variations, perhaps?) from the rails at different frequencies. Two different frequencies indicate "High" speed (70 or 80 km/h, which is about 42 or 48 mph) and "Medium" speed (40 or 50 km/h, which is about 24 or 30 mph). The absence of any signal indicates "Low" speed (15 km/h, or 9 mph).
(1) Yard tracks are not coded, causing them to automatically enforce a 15 km/h limit.
(2) The presence of a train causes the code to disappear both (IIRC) for the occupied track circuit and the one behind it, enforcing a 15 km/h limit on those stretches of track. Note: there is nothing to prevent a following train from crashing into the one in front of it, but this can hardly happen at much higher speeds than 15 km/h. If the T/O exceeds that speed, the service brakes are applied automatically to lower the speed. If the speed is REALLY high, emergency braking will be applied.
(3) A red signal due to something other than track occupancy causes the code to disappear for the track circuit immediately before the red signal. The previous track circuit will be coded for "Medium" speed, to warn the T/O that he/she must reduce speed. A red signal due to track occupancy will cause the code to disappear for the track circuit immediately before the red signal and the one before that, with the previous one coded for "Medium" in the same way.
All these aspects are simply displayed in the cabs of older stock with three lights marked "H", "M" and "L" (Hög, Mellan and Låg in Swedish, which correspond to High, Medium and Low). A bell sounds (and must be canceled with a pushbutton) when the aspect changes to Låg, even if the train is already being operated at a low speed. Otherwise, if the train's speed exceeds the permitted speed, a buzzer sounds. The latter occurs both if the T/O should exceed the speed currently permitted, or if the aspect "drops" to Mellan, for example.
It's a pretty simple system that has provided good throughput and a good safety record since 1950. It was replaced on Tub1 (the "green lines"), the oldest part of the system, a few years ago, mostly because it was becoming difficult to obtain replacement parts for the maintenance of the older system. The replacement system is Siemens's LZB 700, IIRC.
Regards,
Tim
PS I'll plug my site again:
Tim's Rail Transit Photos
Photos of the Stockholm underground, as well as a couple of Stockholm light rail lines.
so if PATH is hiring how can i get down off that? email me back. cause i could use a job right now quick!
Just go to www.Panynj.gov
click the employment section and there should be a listing of jobs. It should also be on the MTA's site.
And for our subtalkers/carpenters there is an opening for an engineering position for the MTA. You must have a degree in engineering and must be working in engineering for a minimal of 15 years.
I was a carpenter for 13 years. But, a degree in engineering? They want an engineer, not a carpenter.
I have to look into that. If PATH is hiring I may bit.
They prefer two years experience.
Extra engineer switching is the job title. No work yet on pay.
For the (J) trains departing Jamaica Center terminus from Monday 0400 to Friday before 2400, they terminate at Broad St. ok. Does the (J) and/or [(Z) if operating] trains use the tailtracks south of Broad St. station to turn back all the time for all these trains?
During the rest of the week and weekend schedules according to the MTA it terminates at Chambers St. Does it use the Weekday Southbound platform (Western Island Platform) as the Terminating platform? As a result, the Weekday Northbound platform (Eastern Island platform) will not be accessible?
No, soemtimes we turn in station on the midnights, which was another big thread in the past.
and
No because you answered with the problem yourself.
A couple of nights ago out on my trusty bike (I've herad that someone else here is also abiker, hope to see you some time) and saw a corona redbird cossing the bridge. It was heading southbound. Aside from the this week's sighting, I also saw another redbird heading in the opposite direction just a couple of weeks ago. Both were ofa full length, 11 car train. Any resaon for this? Were they just going to Coney Island Shops for an overhaul???? Repairs? Or is the TA planning on using them as work trains as the 142 and 62 replace their current assginments. As an asdie I was told that an R-142 was sighted on the 7 line this week, he just wasn't sure if it was a 142 (he's kinda new to railfanning).
-George's Pool Hall
>>A couple of nights ago out on my trusty bike and saw a Corona redbird crossing the bridge.<<
The Corona fleet is repaired at Coney Island. All major repairs are at Coney, Corona is just a inspection barn. These moves are usually at night from what I heard.
When the Redbirds are retired and the R-??? replace them, they'll be making the same moves down Broadway, over the bridge to Coney island Shops.
Bill "Newkirk"
I Posted it also. It was Thurs Night. I was on the head end of a Work Train going to Corona Yard, so you might have seen me as well as the 7 train.
Robert
You know what I just thought about is, that I was at CIY on Friday night and I did not see any of these cars in the Yard. I know I would have made them out becouse most of them were the 2000 WS cars. Dose anyone know if that were sent up to 207 Yard for scrapping or some were else?
Robert
If I'm not mistaken, the R-62As are going to replace the "Redbirds" on the No. 7 line in time.
#3 West End Jeff
"If I'm not mistaken, the R-62As are going to replace the 'Redbirds' on the No. 7 line in time."
Maybe, maybe not. For the umpteenth time:
N-O D-E-C-I-S-I-O-N H-A-S B-E-E-N M-A-D-E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David
O-K!! We'll wait and see what happens.
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe this is a stupid question, but I didn't know it was possible for a redbird to go on the Manhattan Bridge. Aren't those trains a different width than the trains that usually go across the bridge? I always thought they weren't compatible?
IRT trains can run on BMT/IND trackage, they are narrower and shorter. The tripcocks do have to be changed though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks guys.. So I assume the oppisite can't happen though, right? BMT running on an IRT track?
That's correct. You would end up with a whole lot of platform edges sheared off. Among other things.
Peace,
ANDEE
It may be possible to travel certain distances from the connections of the divisions before you get to a station. There may still be signals & other electric equipment, through spans, etc. though.
I have in mind going down the express tracks of the 4 line from Concourse to just short of Burnside; the 1 line from 207th yard to 240th St. yard or the other way to just short of Dyckman, the 7 line to just short of Woodside, and the middle track at Junius St. (diesel locomotive required for ramp). I wish they would do something like that just for pictures.
What size are the locomotives and what div do they fall under?
All work train equipment is sized to fit the IRT so that it can be used anywhere in the system.
This is true...chassis have acceptance plates which point out this fact and most motorised equipment has trips for all divisions. CI Peter
And they are in their own division-- C.
You would end up with a whole lot of platform edges sheared off. Among other things.
My unprofessional impression is that the trains would probably get the worst of that battle, not the platforms.
Of course, even if they did manage to give the IRT platforms and tunnels an unwanted shave, they'd still have to deal with those curves. Save me a ringside seat for a 75-footer trying to negotiate the curve between Hunterspoint and 45th/Courthouse Square.
:-) Andrew
While doing some reading from the ERA NY Bulletin (1970), there were a rash of Div B cars mixed in Div A cut and tearing up wooden edges on the platform while traveling on Div A lines.
But then, most platforms (at least today) are concrete.
OK. I'm no expert. Who would win this deadly battle, the steel trains or the concrete platforms?
:-) Andrew
The loser would be the wooden edge that is on the concrete platform.
The smart money says...platform. IF they were all made of concrete. If wood, then it's a toss up. :)
Like an R-10 in a train of R-12/14s? Crr-rrrunn-nnch!!!
i don't think B Division cars can fit on A Division. However A can fit on B Division. i have seen redbirds in B Division territory before.
How about an R68 on the #5 going between 138th & 149th/Grand Concourse? LOL.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd like to see that.:-)
If that happened, I'd show you one U-shaped hippo which will need to be pried out of that tunnel.
..and that is one NICE looking tunnel to boot!
Tho you'd think since r62/a's can roll through
there... with them being contractually just
prior to r68's you'd think the two WOULDN'T
have such far pried differences in size/form.
It would be VERY interesting to have a 75' car try and round the curve betweeb Hunter's Point and 45th Rd. Courthouse Square.
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe they can try it out in a few years as part of a "Farewell to the R-44s" tour. :-)
I have a better idea: run them around City Hall or South Ferry loop.
Tougher on the cars, but it's easier to get the 75-footers over from the Astoria line to the Flushing line at Queensboro Plaza -- though thinking about it now, I'm not sure if the R-44s could make the first turn out of the QP station to get to 45th Road (Heads up, lower level Queens-bound traffic on the Queensboro Bridge!)
Forget the elevated curves (they could always be rebuilt)---but what about the Steinway tubes? Aren't they narrow even by IRT standards.
Something like that. If they were any tighter, you'd hear, "Take a deep breath and hold it!" as a train left Grand Central or Vernon Blvd.
Or, given what would happen to the sides of the cars when the trains entered the Steinway tunnel, maybe the MTA could put a PA announcment at Vernon-Jackson similar to the one at Union Square:
"Attention passengers. Please stand clear of the moving walls as trains enterand leave this station."
Dont scrap 'em... just cram em down a few loops
or choice tunnels and you'd save yourself the
demolition work... just make sure to tow them
out afterwards.... cuz we still gots a RR to
run...
Demolition Derby with Subway Cars?
Do you think the TV stations could pre-empt Monster Truck Rallies for that?
:0)
Not unless we could throw in a few BMT standards for kicks.:-)
No need to preempt regular programing. Make it a special episode of Subway Q & A on Metro TV :)
--Mark
Heck...even the sloppy chassis Redbirds can't make it on Division A anymore...the marks from crashing into platforms ALWAYS get flagged during inspection. CI Peter
Too much play on the kingpins? Tape it up! :)
We could take a pair and park them on each end of the Joralemon, BCO them, bag the controllers in multiple and watch the sparks fly. Maybe we could even place a WCBS railfan window smash cam for posterity.
I *like* it! Heh.
As long as we've accepted a yellow over yellow with the original topic AND since the G train is headed the way of the Culver shuttle, a long, slow, agonizing death - why not at least give them G riders something to thrill to?
What I propose is that we turn the G somewhere else, allowing us to rip up the layup just south of Smith/9 and knock out a few sections of track south of the interlock. Then, beginning at the lower platform of Bergen (this will encourage the rebuild we all know we need) we launch them up the hill. past Smith/9 where we diverge them onto missing track. Cameras can then delight in them crashing through the street, possibly piling up (with wagering to help an ailing state economy) as to which way they point?
OR ... we could rebuild Van Cortland station with three tracks, one of which terminates in a slight ramp ... then run trains off the end, perhaps with jet assisted takeoff where judges can determine the best car number in the fleet by distance to asphalt! I smell Paper Voo Teevee here ... plus, with the wider cars, there'll be kindling wood to sell to folks with fireplaces. Everybody wins ...
Why do you have to pick on Van Cortlandt!!Hehe
Why can't you choose E 241 White Plains for that??
Simple. I used to live there ... what's YOUR excuse? Heh. But the "facilities" at 242 are in better shape and E241 ... secondly, there's BRICKS under that asphalt. Makes for better dispersion of the brown powder when the rustbirds "kiss the sidewalk" ... TV crews LOVE that sheet ... big splash, gets airtime - "if it bleeds, it leeds" ...
Besides ... 242 has a LOT more "handle monkeys" with a deathwish. :)
(to the foamies - "handle monkey" equals "switchman" ... handle monkeys drop and grab so often that their wrench has a tit that's more gnawed off than a 9th avenue hooker. Whoops ... TRUE "subtalk" ... forgive me. :)
I think that it would be more interesting to demolish some junk subway cars rather than to see monster trucks. When the R-44s are up for scrapping they should have a demolition derby with a few of those cars perhaps. Save a few R-44s for historical purposes too. Don't demolish them all.
#3 West End Jeff
It would have to be on the Fox Network.
IRT trains can run on IND or BMT track, but not in passenger service. They are narrower than IND/BMT trains, so they'll fit. However the gap between train and platform is considered unsafe, so this is not allowed in passenger serivice. It's perfectly kosher for non-revenue moves.
:-) Andrew
the irt trains can run on the bmt, ind lines the only problem is that it has a BIG gap at the stations. so mta would have to steal the staten island railway signs that say "watch the gap" and put them on the trains. remember track layout is still the same its the tunnels that are different in the divisions.
a big GAP like the LIRR ...??
ive never been on lirr so i wouldnt know but irt cars are smaller than bmt,ind cars so there would be a gap
I can only say about the experence i did see the gap betwen the station platform & the train on all of the stations
even at the rebuilt hempstead station .... i dunno why.......
In all likelyhood, your friend saw EP011-EP0113, R134 work motors hauling trash. I've seen them on many an occasion late nights as well. They look like R-62's with no windows and one set of doors on each side.
R-127 and R-134 work motors illustrated roster.
Thanks I didn't think of that when he asked ;)
Considering this the half way mark to the Straphanger campaign's anual best and worst subway line for 2002, which subway line would make first or last place. I feel the Lexington Avenue line may take home the best subway service with the clean and reliable 6 train.
Then again I did wan't the 4 too get that title last year.
As for my job hunt I'm going in for another interview with the MTA(hopefully no mistakes this time)for a web designer.
Was it ever planned to extend beyond 205th St (Bronx)..The relay tracks now end @ Webster Av...My assumption is an extension east would surface to "bridge" over the Metro North tracks..Bronx River & Parkway...I wonder if this was the thought...Would be nice today to wind up in Coop City...and service the 40000 there.
Yes indeed, once upon a time there was a plan to do that but it never materialized. That's the reason for the turn in that direction in the first place as part of the "second system" though I don't know if it was planned to go all the way out east at the time.
Probably the line would have been built. But NYC had the chance to buy the ROW from the NY,W&B for les than what it would have cost to build a new line.
It was thought at one point to run the line under Bronx Park, across to Burke. Ave., then east, so there would be a line to the East Bronx. Fortunately, or unfortunately, however you see it, they bought the Dyre Ave. Line, so they didn't need it.
Actually, it would have been a major undertaking....at the end of 205th St., across Webster, the terrain drops severly into Bronx Park, then rises very steeply also at the OTHER end of the park, Bronx Blvd.
Selkirk could probably describe it better, but basically I think there would have been serious grade problems to overcome...
Yeah, there is a serious dip there, but then again it could have gone deep under the harlem line or it could have been done like the elevated subway section along the concourse near 174th ... I'm sure it wouldn't have been an extraordinary undertaking. Personally, I would have preferred that to hijacking the New York, Westchester and Back. :)
Yeah, but they wouldn't (and, I wouldn't, actually) have wanted to disturb the park...Selkirk, you may know this, since you know my neighborhood so well..
When you walk down the hill at the end of 205th. St., into Bronx Park, when you get to the bottom of the hill there is a concrete path about 15 feet wide, that takes you to the other side of the Bronx...do you know the one I'm speaking of?? It takes you from the end of 205th St. to the beginning of Burke Ave., at Bronx Blvd.?
As you walk along it, you pass under the Bronx River Parkway...
The only place that I can thnk of where you can pass under the Bronx River Pkwy is in that vicinity is Allerton Av/Kazimiroff Blvd. I have often walked to the end of 204th St, down a set of stairs, and through a park towards the above mentioned streets...
-Stef
Yep ... I remember that very well ... in fact, in the movie "The Wanderers" they made extensive use of the bridge at 204th Street as well as that walkway which goes under the parkway and OVER the Bronx "river" ... used to walk it often.
The reason I ask, I have heard that that walkway is actually a remnant of the ORIGINAL Bronx River Parkway..in other words, a car road!!!
By the way, if you ever read the book of The Wanderers, it takes place on Burke Ave. and Gun Hill Road.
Of course, my friends down here in North Carolina who have seen The Wanderers absolutely don't believe me when I say that's my neighborhood. :)
Same problem up here, with the exception that they YAWN first. :)
I used the service last night on my return trip from Chicago, and I would have to say that I'm impressed.
Since I have a monthly NJT ticket, I had to pay $5.00 for using the monorail and station. Considering the gas, tolls, and traffic up and down the Turnpike, this is a bargain.
The only potential problem was the westbound service to Jersey Avenue and Trenton at this time in the evening (6:00 PM). You have to take a South Amboy local and connect across the platform in Rahway. The Jersey Avenue train made it to Rahway before the South Amboy local did, and I thought I was screwed. (Subway mentality, I guess.) However, they held the Jersey Avenue train and I was able to make a perfect connection.
The good thing starting on Monday is that there will be two trains to Trenton stopping at the airport, Train 5083 @ 6:03 PM and Train 3869 @ 6:37 PM.
I'm hooked.
I've used Newark AirTrain twice and liked it (both times via Amtrak). I used it shortly after it opened for service and there weren't many peple in the station.
Passing through on Amtrak recently, I noticed more passenger activity there.
I think it is really going to catch on.
I don't know of any other way getting to/from Midtown Manhattan to Newark Airport, much less ANY New York area airport, in 20 minutes.
So you can buy a $5 AirTrain ticket to cross from the AirTrain portion to the NJT/Amtrak portion? I used the station a few weeks ago and didn't know how to do that. (I only saw the machines that issued $5 tickets for going the other way, towards the airport terminals, on the other side of the fare gates.)
At the ticket vending machines going towards the gates, the code is 099, and you get the $5 ticket to go through.
There were people in the information booth who were most helpful.
I used the service on Wednesday to go from the Airport to Penn Station-NY and I was impressed. I took some photos - will post them soon.
So in scanning the MTA's Second Avenue Subway site, I noticed something I missed before.
Between 42nd and 72nd, there's only one station, at 54th. Seemed an odd location. But down at the bottom, they mention connex to various lines including "the 53rd Street line". Aha, that explains the station location (though why not call it "53rd Street" even if it isn't *exactly centered* on 53rd, since most people know the tunnel is under 53rd ???).
But, in thinking about it ... that's a MAJOR piece of construction. The 53rd Tunnel is DEEEEEEEEEEP there and descending. Since the Lex/53rd station extends from Lex eastward past Third Ave, a 2nd Ave station on the E/V has gotta go from Second to at least First.
I'm thinking long escalators from one deepish line (just 10 blocks north, 2nd Ave has to be deep enough to interchange with 63rd Street) to one verrrrry deep line.
Any speculations on how they might go about digging out the 53rd Street tunnel in a place that I have to think was never planned for a station, and connecting it to a 2nd Ave station upstairs?
AND ... I forgot to add ... that will really be how they take the load off the IRT, if they can get all those inbound Queens riders to transfer to the 2nd Ave line.
Of course, the Stubway doesn't let em do that [grin].
I wonder if they'd ever sever the connection between IND Lex-53rd and IRT 51st Street? Making that station a non-connecting local would probably speed up dwell times considerably.
To do what the MTA plans, they will have to build a passageway at least three-quarters the length of the block between Second and Third Aves., with escallators (and ADA elevators) at the west end to get paseengers down to platform level for the IND Lexington Ave. station. The walk would be about like the one between the L at Sixth Ave. and the 1/2/3 at 14th and Seventh.
My bigger question is; has the MTA ever gone and looked at Second Ave. where they want to put the station? East 54th St. is not a major commercial street there, and while it does allow for the IND link-up, they might as well have just painted a "Sue Me" sign on their backs for at least some of the residents in that area.
If you're going to have to build a walkway that's a block or so long anyway, why not put the station in a more logical spot, at Second Ave. between 57th and 59th Streets. The main exits to the street could be at 57th, a major two-way street, and 59th, where the city already owns a large piece of property for the aerial tramway to Roosevelt Island, and the block-long walkway can be build diagonally beneath that site and then down 60th Street, where it can hook up not only with the BMT Lexington Ave. station and the N, R and possibly W lines, but with the IRT local and express lines at 59th (A connection to the 53rd St. station would only hook the Second Ave. trains up with the No. 6 on the Lex).
Both 57th and 59th streets are far less residential and more commercial blocks than 54th, and the station would be far enough away from the 63rd St. tunnel so that any flying junction between that line and the Second Ave. tracks south of 63rd would have plenty of room to hook into the line before reaching the platform at 57th-59th streets.
Would a station at Second Ave and 53rd Street require an additional stop on the IND 53rd St line (E and V)? See Alignment URL = http://www.mta.info/planning/sas/sas_alignment.htm
I guess that would be the equivalent of what Boston's Red Line does downtown, or Miami Metrorail does to reach Overtown station from the downtown station. A 20 second two block run.
See my response to J Lee's posting in the other part of the thread ....
Yes, I just saw that, thank you. A very good discussion.
Oh, they'd connect it to the east end of the existing Lex-53rd station. Well, THAT makes more sense. And the connector might not be quite as long as you're envisioning.
Looking at the TA's Midtown East neighborhood map, the Lex-53rd station extends about a third of the way (120'?) east of Third to Second. Maps aren't to exactly scale, so hard to tell. I'm assuming it's a standard 600' station and its west end obviously starts slightly east of Lex. It's 400' from Second to Third, so the escalator might only be 450' or so. Not horrendous, shorter than the 400' from 6th to 7th Avenues to connect to/from F/L and 1/2/3.
If you're going to have to build a walkway that's a block or so long anyway, why not put the station in a more logical spot, at Second Ave. between 57th and 59th Streets.
Uh, normally I'm with you, J Lee. (What IS your first name anyway?) But on this one, it's because it wouldn't connect the 2nd Ave line to the Queens Blvd line. Doh! Isn't a major goal to take all those Queens Boulevard riders and get em OFF the IRT?
A connection to the 53rd St. station would only hook the Second Ave. trains up with the No. 6 on the Lex
Yeah, but no one in their right mind would get off at a Second and 54th station to get to the 51st station on the Lex IRT. Far, far, FAR quicker to walk on the surface. The odd tourist will be deceived, since the TA will likely put a green 6 circle on the entrances over there, but New Yorkers will know. You'd have to go into the Second Ave station, take the escalators down to the Lex-53rd platform, walk its length, up the escalators at the other end, walk the underground corridor, down the stairs, under the IRT, up the stairs (inbound anyway) ... yeessshh!
To connect to east side IRT, more likely to get off at whatever stub or Grand Central Connector they're talking about at 42nd. (Though the connection there to the Flushing Line raises many of the same issues ... )
It's almost as if they should have built the 63rd St. connector to come out on Third Avenue.
I have doubts that a 53St/2Av transfer would be that popular, even with super-duper escalators and moving sidewalks.
It's almost as if they should have built the 63rd St. connector to come out on Third Avenue.
Welllllllll ... the exits are at the far west end to the Lex/63 entrance. Could you build new exits at the east end? Anyone know if there were any provisions built into the east end of the Lex/63 station for this purpose? With two lines, that station might get more traffic than it does today, though perhaps more internal transfers than out to the street.
I have doubts that a 53St/2Av transfer would be that popular, even with super-duper escalators and moving sidewalks.
Depends where the Second Ave line goes. Queens Blvd connecting to a quick downtown run to the east side of the financial district might be popular. E train is hugely crowded, has many more stops, and deadends at WTC, further west. Or, a Nassau connection offers Queens Blvd to Brooklyn that differs from the G.
there is an exit to 3rd ave on the 63rd st line,it just not in use....
there is an exit to 3rd ave on the 63rd st line,it just not in use....
No kidding? Staircases, escalators and elevators already in place? (well, escalator structure anyway) I *wondered* about that!
It doesn't require an elevator. There already is one.
Where would this hidden entrance be?
Where would this hidden entrance be?
The Third Avenue end of the 63rd Street station, of course! I don't know exactly where it would emerge to the street, but love9400 says it's there. From the TA's neighborhood map, the station ends under the west side of Third, so presume it'd land on the NW or SW corner of Lex & 63rd.
But has anyone seen it? Or are they assuming because the platform is under 63/3 there MUST be an entrance? At the north end of the platforms there I haven't seen anything that looks like a way to the street Maybe there is an emergency exit. But the platforms are really deep there.
A shell of a control area is at Third Avenue & E. 63rd Street. I've seen pictures.
David
A shell of a control area is at Third Avenue & E. 63rd Street. I've seen pictures.
I've been there... see this post. And I believe that Mark Feinman has some shots in his tape "You Can't Get There From Here"... I'd review the tape to confirm but my wife has the VCR otherwise occupied at the moment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there a place, either at the corner of 63/3 or the N/E of the platforms where I can see some trace of the stairways?
I've not viewed the area from the surface so I don't know, but I would presume that there must be something visible - perhaps what would appear as a standard emergency exit cover. There isn't anything visible from the public area of the station; all of this is behind walls in the unfinished shell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Knock a hole in my basement. Third Avenue is sealed with concrete vaults...there is SERVICE access on the sidewalk of 63rd Street. CI Peter
Nope ... don't have anything about the 63rd St/3rd Ave shell. Missed that tour.
--Mark
You mean I've been some place that you haven't?!?! :-)
I did take some pictures, but they're about the same quality as my shot of the Roosevelt Avenue terminal station sign... LOUSY.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, they are there. I'm not exactly sure where they come up at, but I've seen them while on a Transit Museum tour of the unfinished shell portion of the station. There's a full mezzanine, basically a twin to the one that's open, at the Third Avenue end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It wasn't built because the original concept called for an underground shopping mall that the neighbors objected to. I live at 63 and 3rd. CI Peter
The entrance would probably be on the NW corner of 63rd&Third, I think there is a small courtyard located there.
Do you think the landlord of the building would allow a subway entrence there?
Re: 63rd and 3rd.....MY home!!! Street is steel reinforced concrete bunkers. My apartment house had a tie fire from the original supports that smoked my building out. I endured two years of 24 hour activity...16 of which were multiple charges that made everything go up and down. There is no structural possiblility from my experience that would add an additional entrance...the shopping mall was forced by community legislation to be cancelled at the time when Alexanders did business. You guys don't read all the posts...this matter had been discussed weeks ago. CI Peter
Juice: I'm confused. A previous poster said he had toured the underground portions of the unused eastern exit several years ago. And frankly, for a four-track station I'd be shocked if they HADN'T designed it with entrances at both ends. When Second Ave kicks in, that station will be fairly busy. So are you saying there is NO eastern entrance ???
I live above the 63rd Street subway and no entrance was built in my lifetime that I know of at 63 and 3. The original concept was to have a high end underground shopping complex but that was squashed by the community because of the high crime rate brought by Alexanders and the Lex subway entrances. There is only a ventilation tower on the site of the Gulf gas station which was at 63 and 2. CI Peter
The Shell of the fare control area, and the staircases are there already. So are the streetstairs, which end underneath the concrete side walk. The would come out at 63 & Third, not in the building, but in the small courtyard on the NW corner.The only things not present are the tiles, elevator and escalators. The shaft for the elevator and mechanical rooms for the escalators are also present.
I just realised what you were talking about....the courtyard. I never walk over there......too many rats at night scurrying about. Jacks candy store was located there.....his son died in a motorcycle accident directly related to the rise of elevated plating over the excavation. CI Peter
So this ground is...... cursed!
An ill wind has begun to stir.
Steven King must hear about this!
I guess that answers the question about the choice of tile color?
avid
You don't suppose that's where they filmed part of the foot chase in Nighthawks, do you?
there is an exit to 3rd ave on the 63rd st line,it just not in use. whats the sense if there isn't enough ridership to use it?
Not unless they closed the lexington avenue connection with the #6 which is unlikely.
N Bwy
JV -- A connection at 59th St. would allow access to the Queens Blvd. line via the R at Lexington and 60th -- admidittely, not the same type of access as at 53rd and Lex, but the 60th St. tunnel would allow both Queens Blvd. and Astoria riders access to the Second Ave. line (and you can throw in Flushing line riders as well, if the MTA decided a United Nations station on the 7 or a walkway from Second-42nd to the No. 7 Grand Central stop was not feasible).
As for the walk to the IRT, any pedestrian link between the Lex and the Second Ave. line is going to be a bit of a hike, except of course at the proposed 125th St. terminal or at Brooklyn Bridge, if the Second Ave. line is hooked into the Nassau Loop. I just think if you're going to give passengers the option of a long transfer walk, a connection within a commercial zone such at 57th-59th Sts. makes more sense than doing it at 54th Sts.
John
a connection within a commercial zone such at 57th-59th Sts. makes more sense than doing it at 54th Sts.
Well, yes and no. Yes 'cause it raises overall station utilization 'cause you get people entering/leaving instead of just transferring underground.
But no 'cause I still think loadings on E plus V (or reconstituted F through 53rd, or whatever) exceed those on R train. Don't know what happens when you add in N from Astoria, though, not to mention 7 train.
I assume that someone, somewhere deep in the planning bowels of the TA has some sort of data about trip origination/termination points and why connecting to 53rd makes more sense than 59th. Or, put another way, why E/V is better than R/N/7.
Oh for a BART-type system that records entrance AND exit! Then we wouldn't be disputing; the data would be there. Though it still gets tricky when you add new lines, trying to figure the resulting reshuffle in peoples' patterns.
you mean E/V/7 vs N/R/7
I agree that for Queens Blvd riders who have no intent on getting off at Second Ave. but want to use the new line to go either downtown or uptown, a station at 54th St. with a transfer to the E and V trains makes more sense. But from a "What's going on above ground?" standpoint, odds are a station at 57th-59th and Second would get more use, because there are more offices, stores, movie theaters, etc., in that area. You would only have the transfer to the R that way, but I think the MTA would have a better chance getting a Second Ave. station in at a spot where there would be less neighborhood concerns, and it just seems like putting a stop on a relatively non-commercial street like 54th is just asking for more delays as the result of future court cases.
I think the MTA would have a better chance getting a Second Ave. station in at a spot where there would be less neighborhood concerns, and it just seems like putting a stop on a relatively non-commercial street like 54th is just asking for more delays as the result of future court cases.
We're close to beating a dead horse, but there are two issues here: Construction annoyance, which is temporary, and on-street entrances (which are permanent).
Construction annoyance, yeah, probably. But that'll apply all along the route, and may (I hope) be mitigated by the idea that the very neighbors being inconvenienced will one day get a brand spanking new subway line of their own.
As for entrances, considering the incredibly modest and contextural Lex/63rd entrance, I'd think the TA would go out of its way to integrate into an existing building at 54th/Second. I'm sure they'd rather have demolished the building ... but they didn't. Don't recall 54th/Second, but unless there are gigantic condo towers there I'm sure they could find some small building whose storefront and underground rights they could use. Don't know how or why the Lex/63rd one was done that way.
IIRC, 54th and Second is mainly low-rises, with townhouses on the side street, and mainly small business and restaurants in the buildings fronting Second Ave. on either side of 54th.
While I agree the construction is temporary, if they did deep-bore, and having had to endure the deep bore work on the Red Line when I was living in Washington 20 years ago, the areas in between the stations are virtually untouched, while all the wooden planks on the street, construction equipment, et al access the tunnel at the stations, which would mean if you lived at 58th St. or 49th St. no problem, but between 53rd and 55th, look out (the same would hold true for all the other planned stops along the line).
I suppose you could say better to have all that mess down around 54th St. than right in front of the Queensboro Bridge where it would create a 2-4 year traffic nightmare, but again I think the odds of having a negative neighborhood reaction would be greater at 54th than with a station at 57th-59th Streets. The people will say they're only being made to endure this for the convienence of Queens Blvd. riders, and it would make more sense to build a station entrance three blocks north at 57th.
Of course, we'll never know for sure unless the MTA actually gets close to starting to build the thing, and by then the entire neighborhood may be completely different from what it is today.
People are funny - you know the whiners will be the first to ride!
I lived in Philly from '89-93 while attending medical school. They started excavating Vine Street to build I-676 (Vine Expressway) when I arrived, and finished as I graduated. I lived right next to the project, at 15th and Vine. There were a few hassles, sure, but you know what? I survived, and so did everyone else, and that was one highway project that really benefitted the area a lot.
Are rubber pacifiers on the procurement list for the Second Av subway (to stick in people's mouths when they start whining)?
(Of course, neighborhood payouts should be. A new playground here, street beautification there, kiss some rear end over here, etc.)
The MTA should consider opening a community project office, such as what AirTrain has, to address concerns and show off project models.
The MTA should consider opening a community project office, such as what AirTrain has, to address concerns and show off project models.
That sounds like a good idea. The more the community feels involved in the decision/planning process, the more likely they are to support it. A prime example was the issue of closing token booths that came up this past year.
Are rubber pacifiers on the procurement list for the Second Av subway (to stick in people's mouths when they start whining)?
I think I saw them on the last page - they even have straps so they can't fall out. Now I remember, they're listed right under the "Cash Bus," which will look like a metrocard vending bus with dollar signs on the sides and the ads say, "2nd Ave subway project: Get your shut-up money here!" :)
"I think I saw them on the last page - they even have straps so they can't fall out. Now I remember, they're listed right under
the "Cash Bus," which will look like a metrocard vending bus with dollar signs on the sides and the ads say, "2nd Ave subway
project: Get your shut-up money here!" :) "
That's the bus with the special door in the back just for politicians...
That's the bus with the special door in the back just for politicians...
So that's what that door is for! I was wondering why it had a velvet rope outside...
by then the entire neighborhood may be completely different from what it is today.
I'd say townhouse owners and small businesspeople would scream the loudest.
Apartment dwellers, esp. in high rises, probably won't complain as much since only a few of them will feel the vibrations. Second Avenue has been getting high-rise luxury apartment buildings here and there, as developers complete the decades-long process of assembling blockfronts or partial blockfronts. (The easy ones are gone, now it's patience in waiting for tenants to leave and for the next up cycle.)
Ron's idea of a community outreach office is VERY GOOD. Perhaps the TA can learn from the PA on this one? If and when construction on the Manhattan end of the non-Stubway part ever fires up, mind you ... I give it 10 years or more.
Why can't you have stops at both 53rd AND 59th/60th? If they both come in necessary to far enough apart to build two platforms. Maybe 53rd St can be a half-train platform or something and only open rush hours, or if stats show otherwise 60th St would suffer that. I think if ridership stats show this is necessary, then it would be a good idea.
You could do that. Bear in mind, though, that subway stations are by far the most expensive part of the subway. A station costs 3-4 times as much to build as the tunnel portions between them. So when you're picking station sites, you have to be careful to justify each one, lest you run out of money before the subway tunnel reaches its intended destination.
You don't want your initial operating segment's train starting passengers at 125th Street, and stopping at the wall just shy of 63rd..
"Ladies and gentlemen, your attention please. Only the first car of this train will exit at 63rd. Please come forward to the first car and use the exit marked with the blue light."
"People waiting to board - please allow departing passengers to clear the sidewalk grille before descending to your train. Hand your fare to the conductor."
:0)
The distance between 2nd and 3rd Aves. (about .15 mi.) is less than between 6th and 7th (about .20 mi.).
The distance between 2nd and 3rd Aves. (about .15 mi.) is less than between 6th and 7th (about .20 mi.).
Are you sure? What are your sources? I've always had it as an article of faith that "long blocks" (the avenues) are 1056' long, or four "short blocks" which are 264' high center to center. This works out to exactly 20 short blocks per mile, and gives 200' blockfronts with 64' for sidewalks and roadways. Which is why you tended to get 8 25-foot wide building lots on the blockfronts.
This works with the exception of Lex (3.5th Avenue) and Madison (4.5th Avenue). Avenues A, B, C and D also don't fit; they're actually side-street width not avenue width, and closer together.
If I'm wrong, tell me. It will rock my world, but I'll survive ....
My source is Hagstrom's Atlas, which is very accurate.
You're right about the short blocks. They average exactly 264' all the way from E 1st up to W 193rd. Possibly there are some variations due to the wide streets like 42nd, but the average is exactly .05 mi.
Also, I live between 2nd and 3rd, and I can tell you it's just about 3x264' (my pace is almost exactly 36" and I've paced it off).
Same is true all the way east (2nd to 1st to A/York to B/East End to C to D). By the way, York Ave. used to be called Avenue A (there are still a few signs built into building walls).
West of Third the distance between numbered avenues (Park = 4th) is roughly 4x264', though I believe 5th to 6th is slightly longer than the rest.
The distance between Fifth and Sixth Aves. is slightly longer than the distance between the other numbered avenues. Also, in terms of future four-track construction possibilities on Second Ave., the street itself narrows down about 10 feet between 23rd and Houston streets, but would probably still be wide enough for local stops at 23rd and 14th with side platforms that wouldn't undercut the buildings on either side of the street.
I would assume that a 2nd Ave/54th Street station would hook up with the (E)(V) at the Lex/53rd St station, which after all extends to Third. No need to build a new station on the 53rd St line.
:-) Andrew
David: Since the MTA seems to have removed direct links from its site to the neighborhood maps (or at least I can't find 'em now), would you be willing to link to them permanently from NYCsubway.org? (Or haven't I found that either?)
Along with Peter's track book, they're an invaluable resource in working out system fantasies ....
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/localmaps/
I'm unaware of links for the maps of the other boroughs. Such maps do exist, tho' perhaps not in net-ready form.
Great link. I wasn't aware that these existed on the net. Hopefully they'll add maps for the rest of the system.
Alan Glick
I'll add the link to the MTA site entry in the Transfer Station.
I'll add the link to the MTA site entry in the Transfer Station.
Great, thanks! I suspect many people will find it very useful. Now if we could only get the TA to put up the OTHER four boroughs ....
I just came accross this tidbit while looking up a reference for a D-Type Chicken Coupe.
On October 28 and November 24,1960 the IND operated a "Titan Subway Football Special" from Jamaica to the Polo Grounds. The train left 179 Street-Jamaica at 931am and ran non-stop to 42 Street-8 Avenue (Lower Level) where they picked up more pasengers. The train then relayed on track A-5 and arrived at the Polo Grounds at 1025am. Over nine hundred people were carried and the fare was $.50.
PS: The Titans were in the American Football League and today are known as the New York Jets.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Would the equipment have been R1-9 or R10?
I don't know but since it came out of Jamaica I would venture a guess that is was R-1/9's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Nine HUNDRED???? Everybody who went to that game mustve used the IND..The old Titans were an extremely mismanaged and broke franchise who might have drawn a few thousand people to their games.Their owner was on old broadcaster named Harry Wismer,who was under-financed, and given to hyperbole about attendance figures,announcing a 'crowd' of 20,000 when maybe 5,000 had shown up. {This is the source of the great Dick Young line about many of the patrons coming disguised as empty seats...]. He was forever missing laundry,travel bills,etc- Things got so bad by 63,that the players went on strike until the AFL guaranteed their paychecks! The AFL finally got fed up and put together a comsortium of buyers [Sonny Werblin, Leon Hess, etc...] to save the AFL in New York.
February 27,1961 the last High-Voltage Motor Car left NYCTA property to begin a long and well deserved retirement at the Shoreline Trolley Museum. It was of course Deckroof 3662.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's a good piece of info. I always wandered how it made it to Shoreline. By rail or by truck (or both)? Anyone have details?
-Stef
Truck. Somewhere along the line I've seen photographs of the movement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I checked Cunningham's "Interborough Fleet," and it makes no mention how it made it up to the Shoreline.
It was trucked to the Fifth Avenue Associations Golden Anniversary parade on October 10, 1957.
It looks like Gibbs #3352 was shipped via rail to the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine.
Seashore acquired Hi-V #3352 in 1956.
The May-June 1961 issue of the Branford Journal indicates that
3662 would be coming up "in a month or two". The same issue also
reports that cars 659 and 999 had come up to New Haven as part
of a freight train. AFAIK 3662 was brought up on a highway
trailer.
I've seen a picture of 659 and 999 on the SBK, so that was very much true.
Yikes! Those wheels must have taken a pounding on the New Haven.....
-Stef
I'm not sure if it was Tony or R-16 who asked me for the numbers of the 32 R-16s assigned to the GG back in 1966. I now have the numbers. If you would like them please e-mail me.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It wasn't me, but I actually would be interested, seeing as how R-16s are my favorite car, because they were the backbone of my favorite line.
:)
Tony: My e-mail is RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks, Larry.
I didn't want the numbers, just wanted to know how many and when.
As most of you know back in 1954 Staten Island Rapid Transit sold a total of 30 Class MUE-1's to the New York City Transit Authority. The sale consisted of 25 motors built in 1925 and the five remainng trailers built in 1926. All built by the Standard Steel Car Company.
The motors were renumbered 2900-2924 and saw serice on various southern division lines. The five trailers never ran in passenger service and in 1960 there locations were as follows:
500-out of service at Coney Island
501-Used as a Paper Bailer at Coney Island
503-Out of service-Coney Island
504-renumbered 2925 and used as yard office at Fresh Pond Yard.
508 used as a car inspectors shed at Coney Island.
500,503 and I believe 501 were scrapped in 1961 along with the the SIRT motors.
2925 x 504 was litterly thrown of the BMT by an outraged Q-Type in 1966 . She was scrapped in 1967.
508 had a more interesting career. She was acquired by the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston in 1980 and was used there as a vistors center and gift shop. Unfortunately she was destroyed by a fire set by vandals in 1992.
Larry,RedbirdR33
A few SIRT trailers were converted to motor cars while still on the SIRT to help make up for their own chronic car shortage created by the combination of selling a big chunk of their fleet to the TA and then losing before cars in the Clifton Shop fire.
Paul: Of the 10 original trailers five were converted to motors following the 1927 Tottenville Fire.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry:
Do any SIRT cars survive today?
388 (Pressed Steel, 1925) is at Branford. Don't know about any others, although it's quite possible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Three cars survive; 366 at the Seashore Trolley Museum, 388 at the Shoreline Trolley Museum and 353. I don't know the location of 353. The last I heard she was on the Travis Siding of the Staten Island Railway. Does anyone know for sure.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Travis? Wow, that's the middle of nowhere, and would be on the Staten Island RailROAD, completely isolated from the MTA operation.
If it's there, I hope it's well protected.
Paul: Apparently the three cars were acquired by the Trolley Museum of New York but they never left Staten Island. TMNY subsequently de-accessorized (is that the right word?) them from their collection. That is when the other two museums picked them up. They had all been stored on the Travis siding.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That is correct (other than the word being de-accessioned).
There were 3 cars down in that siding, at the Con Ed plant.
ca 1995. one went to Seashore, one went to Branford. The
last one is still on Staten Island and is in the worst shape
of the 3. As of a few years ago, Kingston still owned the car.
I don't know what their long-term plans are for it.
I saw 388 at Shoreline in 1995. Took a picturte of it, too. It was parked outdoors next to BMT standard 2775. Talk about appropriate.:-)
Makes for a good piece of conversation when I'm doing the "tour".
The trolley guys don't even go over there :-(
Mr rt
Larry,
501 Survived into the 1980s at 38th St Yard. I can't recall what it was used for, but it may have been a classroom car. It was replaced by R-16 #6421, around 1983 or so.
The source is an old ERA Bulletin from way back when....
-Stef
Thanks Stef: I didn't have the year that that one was scrapped.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>508 had a more interesting career. She was acquired by the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston in 1980 and was used there as a vistors center and gift shop. Unfortunately she was destroyed by a fire set by vandals in 1992<<
That SIRT car that was destroyed by a fire at the TMNY Kingston also had a smaller fire when it was parked in 36th St yard. The first fire didn't destroy it, but the second one did. I took pictures of it when it was at the SBK yard on 39th St/2nd Ave awaiting shipment to Kingston. The interior was pretty gutted. That's why they had drop ceilings in it at Kingston.
The number #508 doesn't seem correct to me. I'll check on this.
Bill "Newkirk"
The book "Gotham Turnstiles" (1992) contains several pages of color photos of these M-1 BMT Std look-a-likes.
Mr rt__:^)
Someone remembered seeing a two car set of Standards that was not a BT back in the early 60's. It may have been Selkirk TMO.
Standard 2328 was destroyed by a fire at Coney Island Yard on June 10,1961 and the remaining units, 2327 and 2329, were coupled into a two car set and placed into work service. I seemed to remember that this unit was usually parked on the north track of the 9 Avenue Lower Level. I don't know if this is the set he was looking for.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I seem to recall the two-car unit parked at 9th Avenue lower level was 2204-2206, the former of which is now the museum car.
However, the poster (it was Ed Sachs) thought that he saw a two-car ex A-unit twin pre-R27s, an apparent rebuild since it had no dead cabs. I think his time was a little off and he saw a 2400-series BT.
BTW, didn't you post that there was a northbound switch from the Brighton to the bypass pass track south of DeKalb for use by the Brighton Specials? I'm fascinated by that because I rode through there many times before the rebuild and have no memory of it. Did you ride it personally? Do you have a date/approximate date when it was taken out?
Paul: I'm sure your right about the numbers. I used to ride out there after school and I always found those two cars interesting as by that time anything lower than 2400 was in work service. I remember how far back the platform had been cut to accomadate the SBK freight trains. Even with a Standard on the track there was still a gap about
a foot between the car and the platform.
It wasn't me that made that posting about the track at Dekalb Avenue. I looked at an old map of the interlocking and about the only thing I can see is that previous to the rebuilding the 4 Avenue express tracks could access both the tunnel and the bridge whereas now they can only access the bridge.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The two-car (married pair) Standard sets which I remember from around 1960 (could be fuzzy about the date, after all that was 42 years ago) were obviously rebuilt as they had the "speckled-green" interior paint job, transverse seats removed from the car ends, and the improved interior lighting which was the easy way of spotting the rebuilds. I don't recall the numbers, but they were not the latest of the Standards, as they had the smaller side signs in the door pockets. The cabs at the ends where the two cars were joined had been completely removed, and the door controls on the consoles between the middle set of doors appeared to be inactive. (Not bad recollection after 42 years. You know what they say, you lose two things as you get older, the first is your memory, and I can't recall the other.)
I've heard about the connection that allowed Manhattan bound Brighton trains to use the DeKalb bypass tracks, but that junction was extensively rebuilt in the 1950s, and I don't remember seeing it, though I have some vague recollections of abondoned trackways that could have been this connection.
-- Ed Sachs
Was that Dekalb bypass, the one with the Blue signal light?
The one with the blue signal light was the southbound tunnel track entering DeKalb from the north. Yellow indication went right for 4th Avenue, Green went straight for Brighton, and blue went left for bypass. This was last used by Culver Expresses.
Do you know of other locations in the BMT system where a
bottom blue route aspect was used?
This was supposed to be the one and only location.
I was the one who posted that I rode on the Brighton Special skipping DeKalb using the bypass track, something I did perhaps a half-dozen times at most. I have no idea when the connection to the bypass track was removed. If there were old employee timetables available from the mid to late 1950s and early 1960s, they would show when the Brighton Specials began using DeKalb as a stop. I never saw a track connection on the southbound side.
FWIW, as I mentioned in part, my usual morning ride was on the Fourth Avenue Special, which I got on at Bay Ridge Avenue. The stops after that for me were 59th, then Pacific, then Chambers, where I changed to the Lexington Avenue Express to go to high school (Brooklyn Bridge, 14th, Grand Central, and 86th). Fourth Avenue Specials and Sea Beaches skipped 36th Street in the morning rush hour; I think that started back in the 1930s and lasted until the mid-1950s.
Others have mentioned the blue signal on the Tunnel track into DeKalb--that was the only place I know of on the BMT system where the blue indication existed. It used to be fun to be on a Culver express coming up out of the Tunnel moving onto the bypass with a Brighton express crossing at the same time coming from the Myrtle Avenue station track onto the Brighton track at DeKalb. Evening Brighton Specials came through the Tunnel and went directly into DeKalb with a green indication.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
>>Someone remembered seeing a two car set of Standards that was not a BT back in the early 60's.<<
I remember two deck roof "A" cars on the Culver Shuttle before the R-16s and 27/30s.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think it's three cars: #2712, 2683, 2701; that's what I have in the Grey Book, these would be from the MkII batch of Standards, those with the squared-off rooftops.
wayne
A few days ago I made a posting about the 2600 series A-Types placed in the middle of the 2400 series cars and said that the 2600 series count was off by one. I just came accross a reference and can now post the proper numbers.
2600-2614 - Single Unit A Types
2615-2630 - Middle unit for 2400/2401 thru 2430/2431
2632-2649 - Middle unit for 2432/2433 thru 2466/2467
2650-2699 - Single Unit A Types
What happened to 2631? She was wrecked at the Sea Beach Line portal on November 21,1959 along with 2768-9-70 and 2866-7-8.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sounds like a wicked accident if it wiped out 9 Standards. Any details?
R-16's. I do believe that it was a very bad accident but I don't have any details on what actually happened. Maybe some of the Brooklyn folks have more information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember hearing someplace that the cars involved in the accident scraped their sides on the portal entrance and tunnel walls. That is a rather sharp curve there, with a 115-degree angle. Perhaps the train was going too fast to hold the curve.
wayne
A few days ago I made a posting about the 2600 series A-Types placed in the middle of the 2400 series cars and said that the 2600 series count was off by one. I just came accross a reference and can now post the proper numbers.
2600-2614 - Single Unit A Types
2615-2630 - Middle unit for 2400/2401 thru 2430/2431
2632-2649 - Middle unit for 2432/2433 thru 2466/2467
2650-2699 - Single Unit A Types
What happened to 2631? She was wrecked at the Sea Beach Line portal on November 21,1959 along with 2768-9-70 and 2866-7-8.
Larry,RedbirdR33
They basically say the Port Authority has spent money to fix up the area around Newark Airport and the New Jersey shipping terminals, and the MTA has other financial priorities, so the PA should foot the bulk of the costs of unifying the WTC transit complex.
Port can't flub downtown hub
Great article.
So if they are extending the LIRR from Downtown Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan, how about Jersey Transit, too?
Depends on how they did it -- an LIRR link coming across from the Flatbush Ave. terminal would have no way of accessing the NJT trains, but an LIRR connection downtown via Penn Station would. Presumably, a line like that would either travel down 11th or 12th Ave. and then West Street, Washington Street or Greenwich St. to the WTC area -- though if it went down 12th Ave. and West St., odds are it would be elevated because of the high water table so close to the Hudson.
The down side to the latter idea is it would free up exactly zero track space at Penn Station for other NJT trains, since the LIRR would still need to pass through the station (and presumably stop to pick up and drop of passengers) on its way to and from lower Manhattan. And any NJT trains that came into Penn Station would have to reverse direction to get downtown via the far west side route, or bypass Penn completely. An LIRR route from Flatbush (assuming they could negotiate the spaghetti of subway tunnels in downtown Brooklyn) combined with the future 63rd St. connection to Grand Central would allow a major cutback in LIRR trains coming out of Penn, and that track space could be converted to use by NJT trains.
What I had in mind was run NJ Transit trains directly into Lower Manhattan via two new tunnels.
It should be easy enough to get NJ Transit trains to Journal Square, because the Pennsylvania RR used to run trains through there, and from there 2 new tunnels to a new station in Lower Manhattan.
It would make PATH trains from Newark to Journal Square superfluous because NJ Transit riders would have a one seat ride to Lower Manhattan.
Just a pipe dream, really..........
What I had in mind was run NJ Transit trains directly into Lower Manhattan via two new tunnels. It should be easy enough to get NJ Transit trains to Journal Square ... and from there 2 new tunnels to a new station in Lower Manhattan.
Well, that's one way to do it. BUT, some funding has already been allocated for two new Hudson tunnels (right after 9/11, IIRC) to equalize the Hudson crossings with the East River and reduce the bottleneck of Amtrak and NJ Transit trains. I can't even conceive of funding two MORE Hudson train tunnels.
HOWEVER ... what about a bellmouth once the two new tunnels land, branching downtown before entering the Penn tracks? (Are they N or S of the existing ones?) This maxes out usage of the new infrastructure, gets you a one-seat NJT ride AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, it frees up slots at Penn!
From J. Lee previous post: a line like that would either travel down 11th or 12th Ave. and then West Street, Washington Street or Greenwich St. to the WTC area -- though if it went down 12th Ave. and West St., odds are it would be elevated because of the high water table so close to the Hudson.
Damn, I just keep seeing that High Line ... but the neighbors will never go for it. And you'd still have to do it underground from 14th to WTC, so the single mile (34th to 14th) of existing viaduct isn't worth it.
Or would ALL of the new tunnel throughput be taken up with current usage? Hard to imagine that.
Now, if we can get NJT downtown this way *AND* get the LIRR downtown via Atlantic or a new two-level tunnel ... damn!
Push our legislators hard to get those new tubes!
One proposal I have read recommends that the new trans-Hudson tubes straddle the existing ones into Penn Station. The first tube constructed will be south of the existing pair; this will allow the current inbound tube to be taken out of service and overhauled. Once that has been completed, it will become the outbound tube (the new one will remain as the inbound tube) and the existing outbound tube will be taken out of service and overhauled. While that is being done, the second new tube will be constructed north of the existing tubes. This second new tube, and the newly-overhauled former outbound tube, will then connect to a new set of tunnels to Grand Central.
Like most of the other proposals, it's probably pie in the sky, but we can dream :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
and frankly, we need all four for PENN
and frankly, we need all four for PENN
It's not an either-or. It's a both. The new tubes would connect to Penn AND, later on, to a GCT connector.
It's not an either-or. It's a both. The new tubes would connect to Penn AND, later on, to a GCT connector.
Yes and no. The end result, once all four tunnels were in service, would be two to Penn and two to GCT. There wouldn't be the ability to select which tube and terminal at random. I'm not at all sure that even the present outbound tube would be switchable after everything is complete; that would be the only one where it might be possible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes and no. The end result, once all four tunnels were in service, would be two to Penn and two to GCT. There wouldn't be the ability to select which tube and terminal at random.
Aaaacckkkk! Why on earth not? Is there something in the alignments and switching that would prevent this? Why would you go to the trouble of building 2 new Hudson tubes and NOT use them to relieve the crush at Penn *as well as* connecting to GCT?
Plus, a GCT connector is not as far along in funding as the 2 new tubes. Gotta think that the tubes would open well before a connector, therefore would have to be used for Penn.
What plan did you read?
This proposal dates back at least five years. The alignment issue is simply one of capacity under the Hudson... you've got to go between the Lincoln Tunnel and the existing tubes on the north and between the existing tubes and the Holland Tunnel on the south. There really isn't a lot of room there. The proposal originated, IIRC, as a way to enable the existing tunnels to be shut down (one at a time) for reconstruction; a side benefit would be creating a connection that could be used as part of a GCT access scheme.
If Penn Station had two levels of tracks, it might be possible to construct the new tunnels in a way to permit both stations to be served. Since it doesn't, there would be the nightmare - already severe at Penn - of switching across even more tracks at grade when entering and exiting the station, and particularly for the tracks to GCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
capacity under the Hudson... you've got to go between the Lincoln Tunnel and the existing tubes on the north and between the existing tubes and the Holland Tunnel on the south.
Whaaaaa ??? The Holland Tunnel is 2 MILES further down, by Canal Street! On the north the Lincoln Tunnel is obviously a barrier.
. The proposal originated, IIRC, as a way to enable the existing tunnels to be shut down (one at a time) for reconstruction
This I believe. And with recent funding AND the press this summer about the frighteningly inadequate emergency escape routes from the old tunnels, I think it may happen.
[without two levels at Penn] there would be the nightmare ... of switching across even more tracks at grade when entering and exiting the station, and particularly for the tracks to GCT.
There are Penn expansion studies around, but I don't remember if they add a second level. But regardless, these are once-in-a-century tunnels. They must be thought through and built for maximum future flexibility. Though it'll take 50 years before LIRR runs to GCT, at least 63rd Street was built that way -- AND they built the bellmouth for the Queens super-express as well.
Design question: Would you want the new GCT tunnels to let trains stop at Penn too, or make it either/or? You avoid grade-level switching if you do the bellmouths to GCT tunnel (and my theoretical downtown tunnels) before the Penn interlocking, but add cost. Cheaper and simpler and more flexible to run the tunnels into Penn and THEN switch up to GCT east of Penn, but uglier entry to Penn switching. (My theoretical downtown tunnels gotta turn south as soon as they land, to run down 10th or 11th Avenue.)
I can only hope the PA + Amtrak + MTA (LIRR, Metro North) figure this stuff out. With recent RPA studies, there's at least more joint discussion than in a few generations. I hope whatever new Hudson tunnels are built don't preclude vastly greater flexibility for the *22nd* century.
This second new tube, and the newly-overhauled former outbound tube, will then connect to a new set of tunnels to Grand Central.
Hmmmmm. OK, so then I'll modify my plan. The southernmost new tube should connect to Penn, AND have a downtown bellmouth. When the former inbound (southern) old tube is rehabbed to be an outbound, it too gets a bellmouth from downtown.
When all 4 are built or rehabbed, you have (numbering in a northerly direction) 1 and 3 going inbound (new southernmost + old outbound), and 2 and 4 outbound (old inbound + new northernmost). 1 and 2 connect to downtown, 3 and 4 also connect to GCT, eventually.
This gives amazing flexibility. If something happened at Penn, trains could be rerouted either to GCT or downtown depending where they're coming from. (IF you can also turn westbound trains from under the East River north to GCT, anyway.) Opens up slots at Penn. Allows far greater flexiblity. Allows regional routing. I'm kvelling ....
Where'd you read this proposal?
In one of the newspapers - New York Times, perhaps - a few years ago. I'm running on memory now. There wasn't any suggestion of anything going downtown as I recall. That would be rather difficult anyway since the additional bellmouths would have to be under the river; doing it for the new tunnel wouldn't be too bad, but modifying the existing one (and providing for a crossunder of the new one) would be an issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Greetings. Many of you have been to my NYC railroad website, www.trainweb.org/nyrail, so I'm letting you all know that it has moved to www.nyrail.org. I recently switched my web host from the good folks at trainweb.org to one that I now pay for. The new site is faster, and has a new message board that you can use as well. I have frequent updates, so check back often.
-Dan
Webmaster,
www.nyrail.org
hey congrats on the new domain name.
I was able to find some Chicago L runs on the Train-Sim website, but does anyone know of any go-old New York City Subway routes? Is anyone creating any?
a Brighton line is in development I believe and also a culver shuttle
And others. Check this page:
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/mstsdownloads.htm
The home page is at:
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/main.html
Alan Glick
Those don't look too good, except the 142, but that's only the exterior. The cabs are the same as the series 2000. And the R142 and redbird need a lot of file renaming. I can't wait for the Culver shuttle though. That one seems promising.
Here's a picture taken today showing the progress of the new Airtrain terminal construction in Jamaica next to the LIRR station.
Wow. I haven't been there since last summer.
That's a real Change at Jamaica :-)
I also took a bunch of pictures of the LIRR Jamaica station platforms - there's a lot of demolition going on - removing the old canopies, etc. Unfortuately something went wrong with my digital camera and they all came out looking like this!
Fortunately, my camera seems to be OK, now.
The picture gives a good view of the renovation. Nice job.
Wow they got a lot done already. I was there not too long ago, and it wasn't that far along. When did they start, and when are the scheduled to finih?
The started in '98, and the Howard Beach leg will open for service this coming winter (meaning Nov or December). The Jamaica leg will open Spring of '03.
Thank you, but I also meant the general redoing of Jamaica. I noticed in the picture that what seems like a large part of the canapies have been ripped up.
That will be finished in '05.
Wow, far off yet, but at least they are finally doing it.
You don't need the whole rehab to use AirTrain; but the rehab will make the whole station complex a lot more passenger-friendly. You'll have a first class rail terminal with integrated airline rail shuttle and subway service. Pretty damn good.
Unfortuately something went wrong with my digital camera and they all came out looking like this!
I think your camera is okay, it looks like it had trouble focusing and coming up with a color balance through your train window. You might try moving it closer to the window next time. I've had the same issues with automatic 35mm cameras too. Especially if the windo is at an angle to your lens.
Cool pictures though! I haven't been by there since they started with the steel.
JR
I think your camera is okay, it looks like it had trouble focusing and coming up with a color balance through your train window.
That's just it - I was on the platform, not on the train! Just before this problem started, I accidentally took a picture looking right at the setting Sun. Must have fouled up all the internal settings for a while. After I turned it off for several minutes, everything was back to normal.
That's just it - I was on the platform, not on the train!
Wow! That's really strange. The reason I thought you were shooting through a window is that there looks like a reflection in the upper right! The window looking thing above the right column on the next island over - what the heck is that? Is that some kind of pixel burn from your previous shot?
I accidentally took a picture looking right at the setting Sun. Must have fouled up all the internal settings for a while.
Yeah, it looks a little too bright for direct sun shots. Glad to hear the camera is back to normal.
JR
Feh. All that money on this fancy Disney monorail, when a nice flying junction at the Howard Beach IND could have been constructed with a ROW or elevated two track structure.
You could have had sign readings displaying:
A 8th Avenue Express
Fulton Express
JFK International Airport
Personally, I favored using the old LIRR Rockaway Beach line ROW for a direct connection to both Penn Station and Flatbush Ave.
But at least they have built Something - and within a reasonable time, too.
Sorry in my opinion the new JFK Air Train line to Jamaica Station is going to be a huge flop. First of all here's why
1-Not a one seat ride
2-As a former resident of Long Island and a daily LIRR passenger for 17 years who would take a taxi to a LIRR station,train to Jamaica and switch to the Air Train when one can take a cab right from your home direct to JFK and its still cheaper than a taxi/LIRR/Air Train and i have no idea what the Air Train fare us going to be.
3-A person who works at JFK and most workers there are not 9 to 5 workers will take an Air Train to Jamaica and have to wait up to an hour for an off peak train when they can be home by the time the next train arrives at Jamica by driving
ie-You live on the Ronkonkoma Branch which has hourly service. You get off at 11:30PM and get to Jamaica say by 12:00 AM by Air Train and still have to wait until 12:35AM or 12:40AM for a train from Penn which leaves approx 15 past the hour. One can drive from JFK to Ronkonkoma by the time the next train first reaches Jamaica.
The JFK Air Train is going to be the biggest flop since the Edsel.
Thank You
So I take it you won't be riding?
OK. Better chance for me to get a seat when I ride. I'll leave the taxis to you!
Hey, y'know I too wish it had been different. But kinda like the designs for many other things, lame but built trumps perfect armchair. I believe it will be used. So let's all be patient til we get some numbers after six months.
There is no such thing as a one-seat ride from "anywhere" to JFK Airport. The airport is so vast that any conventional transit link (subway or commuter rail)would require one central station and then transfer to some type of intra-airport link to the individual airline terminals and other facilities (e.g., Federal Ciricle). The Jamaica-JFK Air Train effectively moves the airport central station to Jamaica where travelers have a choice of LIRR, E/J subways, and a dozen local bus routes (TA & Green) right at the doorstep. Passengers will be able to check into their flights right at the Air Train terminal, eliminating long lines at JFK itself.
Remember too that a big market on the AirTrain will be many of the 40,000(?) people who work at the airport itself.
Another byproduct of this project will be vastly improved and state of the art Jamaica Station for all travelers - airport bound or not.
If you prefer taking a taxi, that's fine - but don't dump on this project that has the potential to serve many people who now have limited options getting to JFK if they don't drive or take a taxi/car service. Right now one must take the Q10, Q3, B15, or N91 from a NYCTA or LIRR station.
The A can read that right now. You don't need a flying junction - just a convenient way to board the railcar hich will take you right to the gate.
E and J trains can carry that sign now, too. Jamaica Center - JFK AirTrain
You can cry because the fresh milk is in the carton in the fridg. I'll drink and enjoy it.
Wow! Thanks for the photos. I can't wait untill it is full operational!
MATT-2AV
Thanks for posting that. A wondrous sight indeed.
I was perusing the MTA website and check on the LIRR capital projects. Your photo of the Airtrain Terminal is half right. The Airtrain guideway on the right is the Airtrain terminal, however that 7 story building going up next to it has nothing to do with Airtrain. That is the new LIRR (JCC) or Jamaica Control Center. I was misled too, until I read this on the website.
Bill "Newkirk"
You mean this part?
"The $225 million Jamaica Station effort will renovate the station in conjunction with the Port Authority’s light rail system to JFK and will build a new central train control building. The control tower will enable the railroad to eventually replace and centrally control the activities of 15 remote signal towers between the Harold Interlocking and Montauk."
That's it Bob, that's the seven story building in your photo descibed in the website. At first I thought the tall structure was for the JFK Light Rail Line, but I then figured their headquarters must be based near JFK Airport.
Bill "Newkirk"
In that case I'd better start getting more pictures of the still-existing LIRR towers before they tear them all down!.
Thank God. A steel-skeleton, boring box is an inappropriate and ugly design choice for a transit terminal of the 21st Century. I hope the architects' vision with regard to the terminal provides more fanciful result.
They've been doing some construction in the Amtrak area of the lower level of Penn Station - putting in more modern walls and ceilings.
I spotted this sign directing passengers to the 7th Ave. Subway which was uncovered when part of the old ceiling was being replaced. It doesn't look like an original 1910 sign, but it probably has been covered for quite a long time.
It is probably from when the current station was built in the 1960's.
Allan is right.
That sign is about 35 or so years old.
Based on the lettering style, I'd agree 100%
Is that under the old Concourse? It looks like glass block in the ceiling, which was what the old concourse floor was.
Does the MTA print maps of large station complexes like Times Square? If not, has anyone made one and posted it online? The last time I was in NY (August 2001) I saw a large poster map of the 59th Street-Columbus Circle station in the mezzanine, and I was just wondering if there were any smaller maps available at these large stations.
David
I've not been in NY in some time, but do remember those huge, glorious station maps. I recall asking some TA person (how, who, when, I don't remember) if one could buy a copy (maybe I phoned the TA. I don't remember). Anyway, I got the huffiest response, a 'how dare you ask such a thing'.
These kind of maps would be collectable, highly saleable, the kind of thing you want to frame and put over your sofa, or use as wallpaper. My usual station was 86th in Bay Ridge, and the map there was wondrously detailed, letting you actually see how what was underground related to what was upstairs. If Holy Pictures can give Catholics the religious equivalent of a woody, then these maps are the railfan map-lover's equivalent.
That reminds me of the time I was in a Culver (F) R46 in Brooklyn and some guy smashed the glass over the subway map.
Since he was in the middle of the train, the conductor heard and with his 2X4 kept hitting the wall of the car to get the guy to quit.
He ignored the conductor and took out the map after removing the rubber type of border, but he got his map.
It was lucky for him that there was no cop around. This took place around 7-8PM. I sort of envied the guy for having the guts to actually take one of those maps which I alway wanted. I never had enough courage to steal anything more than some of the ads over the lights.
And I should not have done that either, but I did.
I can one up that one. On the very last day of the Myrtle in '69 people were taking parts of the train as souvenirs as it was also the last day of the "Q" cars, the oldest cars in the system at the time and the last wooden cars in North America. Some people were taking the leather straps. I ended up taking one of the wicker seats which I took onto the "J" train to Jamaica, the LIRR to Hempstead, and the bus (an old Mack on the Hempstead Bus Comp) home to East Meadow. I still have the seat.
I still have the seat.
Tell us where you get incarcerated ... we'll come visit!
When they build the N extension to La Guardia, do you think they could design it to serve Rikers, too?
Just kidding.
I've taken a lot of GO posters from the stations and cars.... ONLY after they have expired! Hey, they make good wallpaper. You should see my dorm room wall. I have a whole collage of service advisery posters... :)
Check out message #310824.
I just found out about this today and was pleasantly surprised.
Alan Glick
alan - not sure how to check by message number. help, please.
thanks
Just change the number at the end of the address:
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=310824
thanks
I don't think neighborhood maps re the same as subway station maps. I remember a Union Square station map that actually told you how all the corridors fit together. It was much more detailed than the maps you're referring to.
Wow. When did you see that? I wonder if other complex stations have such maps. I'd like to see these on-line or in a format that could be handed out at the stations.
Alan Glick
Yes, we are speaking of the neighborhood maps, in the stations, which are/were different from what you see online. These were to an immensely large scale, showing all the passages and stairs in the subway, as well as the configuration on the street level. I forget the exact size, but maybe 4 by 8 feet? Huge.
I wonder how they made them. I suspect some computer program, connected to a plotter.
As for the online maps, the city should publish them in an official atlas, larger, more detailed, more glorious than the Hagstrom -- together with the other boroughs, of course.
About 10 years ago, it was posted somewhere in the Union Square station. It's long gone. I vaguely remember a few other detailed station maps, but maybe I'm making that up. I am certain about the Union Square station map being there, just not how long ago. I'd like to see it again too.
There is a 3-D style map of the Fulton/Nassau-Broadway complex on the uptown platform of the 4/5 @ Fulton Street.
There is a 3-D style map of the Fulton/Nassau-Broadway complex on the uptown platform of the 4/5 @ Fulton Street.
I actually find their 3-D maps FAR more confusing than the 2-D ones, dunno why. Both the Penn Station and Grand Central 3-D maps are almost useless to me ... maybe 'cause they try to use the same one for every location, instead of distorting the "You Are Here" part so you can orient yourself better.
And while I'm griping ... anyone ever notice that the "You Are Here" stickers on the large subway maps on the platform invariably cover up every adjacent stop? Grrrrrr ....
On the downtown platform, too.
Columbus Circle has similar maps, as does (according to a post to nyc.transit) one or both of the Penn Station stations.
They're interesting to study but I do find them a bit difficult to use to quickly figure out where I want to go. Apparently the TA agrees; no new maps of this sort have been posted in many years.
I would love to see one of Times Square (before and after).
A few days ago I downloaded the R142, R142a, and R143 subway cars for BVE. How do I put these cars into other BVE routes? I would like to have an R142 on the Flushing line, for example. I made a copy of the Flushing line route file and I am going to change only the train information so I will have a choice of an R36 or an R142 for the Flushing line route. Does anyone know how to do this (what values to put in)? Thanks in advance for your help
David
Piece of cake ... you need to edit the ROUTE file (either a *.RW or a *.CSV file depending on which version of BVE it's for) ...
In an *.RW file, look for a line that says:
[train]
file=r36
and change it to the train you want:
[train]
file=r142
In a *.CSV file, it will be:
Train.Folder
Fortunately for your sanity, should be right near the top of the file. It can be edited with any text editor ... easy, painless, no talent or handles required. :)
I did this before, but it did not change the acceleration rate/top speed and the sounds of the train were not there. How do I get those?
David
Is it a RW or a CSV file for the ROUTE file? That should all follow the TRAIN data file and should work as I suggested. Which route are you playing with? It might be some particular author of the route funniness there ... there's some routes out there that are SO whack that they require major surgery, especially those that came from the site that has abandoned BVE and is now MSTS only ...
The route file is an RW. I want to put the R142 in the #7 Line route. I did already change a train in the F train route by copying all the train information from the other rw file and pasting it into the F line rw file. I can't do that now because there are no routes that have the R142 in it. The Franklin Shuttle uses the R143 but it has a CSV file so I can't copy and paste it... BTW, whatever happened to all the BVE routes that were on that site, are they available some where else? I downloaded some of them before, but the only routes I could get working were the F and the R. I was going to try the others again.
David
Kev, maybe you could help me out with those routes from that evil site, i cant get them into proper folders or something help! I really want them to work
Did you ever get the fixed file I sent or did msn lose that on ya also? Drop me an email - I'll be in the office tomorrow ... once those files get edited up a bit, they do work. Given that you're stuck in the MSTS planet, these particular routes are pretty lame but well ... I'll tell you in the next response about your MSTS message ...
Na mon me nah recieve them from you, unless you are offering me free herbal weight loss medication then no i didnt get it. will drop you an email. Thanks
Just replied ... hopefully you'll get THAT ... but we gotta get you a *real* ISP, MSN is afraid you might email folks outside the perimeter of the Redmond Death Star shields. :)
HELP!!!! IM trappped....FOAMING....HYPNOTIZED.....FOAMING IN ISP AND RALROADING the Microsoft way!! HELL!
Thanks for that info... I just finished driving an R143 down the (G), and it was awesome!!!. One thing though, when I hit around 20 mph the acceleration fluctuates, as though the train is losing power intermittently or something. What could be causing that?
My dad, a frequent AE rider, has been asking me to post the following questions/statements:
He thinks that the Acela Express time of 2:45 is far too slow, and they should cut at least 30 minutes off the trip. Here is what he thinks:
*Metropark and New Carrollton should be eliminated for the AE
*BWI should be eliminated if they aren't rebuilding it
*Trains should go faster between Wilmington and Baltimore
*Curves should be eliminated and the speeds should be raised on straight sections
I, personally think that New Carrollton and Metropark should be a weekend only stop for the AE and that peak trains should skip BWI. If these stations must be left in, make BWI and Metropark island platforms so the trains don't have to constantly switch tracks. Also don't have all doors open at Metropark since they can't close properly there. A SEPTA platform for Churchman's Crossing should be installed for the westernmost track, so Amtrak isn't restricted to 2 tracks during rush hours while SEPTA single tracks the R2 on the easternmonst track. The R2 could cross over just before Newark.
Does anyone else have any other suggestions or know what Amtrak is planning?
The purpose of the AE is to provide a fast trip, mostly for businessmen. Thus, serving major stops like DC and NY and skipping Metropark and New Carrollton would make sense to me unless there's enough ridership at those stops on the AE.
*Curves should be eliminated and the speeds should be raised on straight sections
I don't understand how you can eliminate curves without buying more ROW and laying new track.
Most of those businessmen live in suburban communities. Metropark and New Carrolton are the primary suburban stops. Why would a businessmen commute to NYC just to be able to commute to DC?
Acela is capable of a 2 hour 30 minute schedule from Washington to New York with scheduled stops. It is capable of a 2 hour schedule, non-stop. The problem isn't even the curves, really - the train can hit most curves 20-30 mph faster than a conventional train.
The problems:
-Scheduling and signalling have to improve
-Amtrak needs its own dediccated track throughout. It has to share tracks with NJ Transit getting into New York, and , if I recall correctly, it shares tracks with MARC trains on the Washington side.
-The top speed should be raised from 135 to 140 or higher and should be allowed on longer stretches of track.
Also, there are times when a conventional train will leave just ahead of an Acela. Unless some "wrong-railing" is arranged, Acela will get stuck behind a slower train.
Amtrak has control over the MARC trains.
Yes, but they still share tracks. If there were a full-length four track ROW then MARC could not potentially delay an Acela Express.
The ROW from DC to Balto needs to be fully four track (another less B-2) In turn, in Atk's defense, I suspect they are still having too many failures to try running them harder. When (IF?) the equipment 'breaks in' sufficiently, I hope for much faster service. Heck they had a 2:30 Metroliner 25 years ago. If they get serious they should be able to better that with all the bells and whistles on these trains. Maybe they'll even (gasp) tighten up the dwell at Penn for the Boston trains. And in my dreams serious coffee(that's espresso) and upscale munchies to match the fares.
They can't. Penn is too narrow to have everyone down there at once.
If Amtrak can get a second tunnel across the Hudson, that will help clear a lot of traffic out of Penn that much faster. In the closer term, when catenary replacement is completed in Connecticut, Amtrak dwell times will drop because they won't have to wait as long for departure slots on fewer tracks.
I was referring to the actual platforms. Once the train arrives, it isn't safe to have the boarding passengers already downstairs waiting to get on. That is why the layover is 15 minutes. Since they do have to change crews, the ideal schedule would have a 5 minute layover.
Thanks for the clarification.
Amtrak has said it can reduce the layover time given faster track clearance. I assume that will include a refined boarding procedure as well.
Note that the Amtrak platforms at 30th Street station aren't that much better - and layovers are shorter.
How does catenary replacement in CT affect dwell times in Penn?
Because one of the mainline tracks is out of service, Metro-North and Amtrak trains must share the remaining track (or two tracks, if they do a 3+1 during the day). This means that a train at Penn headed northbound may be held because a Metro-North train previously departed from Grand Central will be occupying the block - and vice versa. Remember that the GCT and Penn tracks merge at New Rochelle (or roughly thereabouts) It also means Amtrak trains cannot depart as frequently, lest they too, be interfering with one another owing two one track aout of two northbound be out of service.
I should clarify a bit: Congestion on the CT tracks "feeds back" into NY state territory.
It's like when an accident on the expressway adversely affects traffic five miles back. Except this is a chronic situation.
I thought the trouble with the 2:30 Metroliner back then was that it was always late, so they had to modify the schedule to fit the facts.
yes, and if one believes the flacks, the tracks are better now, the signals are better now and the trainsets are too. So with all these improvements, ... bridge to Brooklyn?
I, personally think that New Carrollton and Metropark should be a weekend only stop for the AE
No they should not, read my explanation for Mr. 4th Ave.
AE and that peak trains should skip BWI
All AE trains should skip BWI. It barely connects to the Airport just like Howard Beach. Why would anyone fly in to an AE connection when they could just fly direct, probably for less?
A SEPTA platform for Churchman's Crossing should be installed for the westernmost track, so Amtrak isn't restricted to 2 tracks during rush hours while SEPTA single tracks the R2 on the easternmonst track.
First, Amtrak trains only need two mainline tracks outside the NY-Philly corridor.
The R2 could cross over just before Newark.
Crossing the trains at DAVIS would be a disaster. DAVIS would tie up all 4 hi-speed mainline tracks. Currently, trains cross at the lo-speed LANDLITH interlocking at MP 25.6. They they get onto the 3rd track lo-level platform at Wilmington at WINE (MP26.6) and thus freeing the express tracks. The SEPTA trains then stay on the siding until MP 28.2 where they cross to the #2 track at YARD. At REGAN (MP29.7) SEPTA trains can once again get off the mainline tracks and back onto the wooden tied #1 track that they then use to serve the two Dek stations. Did you also notice that they have a new #0 track starting just after the CC station that then gets then off the lo-speed #1 track? Your way would have SEPTA trains no only tie up the hi-speed Amtrak track from MP 25 to MP 38, they would have to make TWO station stops on said track AND cross over other hi-speed track at DAVIS. Study some track diagrams before you make your suggestions.
One thing I, as well as other subtalkers may be hoping for on October 27, 2004 is for a recreation of the opening of the subway. At least a half an hour before the Mayor drove the first subway out of the original City Hall station at 2:35 PM, factories blew their whistles in honor of the opening. Today, however...all the factories are closed. So, my question to subtalkers is how about having church bells ring throughout the city from 2 to 2:35 PM, if indeed Mayor Bloomberg and MTA administration decide to re-create the opening to the moment? Perhaps those church bells that are computerized can chime out a tune like "I've Been Working on the Railroad." :-) -Nick
One thing I, as well as other subtalkers may be hoping for on October 27, 2004 is for a recreation of the opening of the subway. At least a half an hour before the Mayor drove the first subway out of the original City Hall station at 2:35 PM
What I'd like to see is a dignitaries and fans trip from City Hall up the east side, onto the one remaining connected Shuttle track, then onto the west side line up to 137th -- the original subway route.
Don't have Peter's track book here, but IIRC, the switches no longer exist to get from the southernmost shuttle track (connected to Lex) to the northernmost (connected to Broadway). Correct?
You're right, but that shouldn't be. Looking at the map now, the arrangement is such that tracks 1 and 3 can only go to the Lex, while track 4 can only go to 7th ave. Forget through running; this arrangement is incredibly stupid for a lot of reasons. Getting trains to and from the yard is one of them:
What if, last Friday evening, the track 4 shuttle got a bad motor. To get it to the yard they'd have to run a three car train (against TA rules to run anything less than 4 cars on the mainline) all the way to 148st, reverse, and then all the way down to Livonia. They would have to do this at night because a protection train would have to be called up, and the exit near track 4 at Times Sq would have to be closed since the drawbridge over track 4 would need to be pulled.
The replacement train would have to wait until Monday morning to get back, thanks to the fact that the northbound 1/2 tube is closed. Or, they'd have to run the replacement up the Lex to Jackson Av middle, then back down 7th ave to the pocket south of Times Square, then across to the local to just north of the switch, then finally back in to it's track (again with the drawbridge up). It would have had to do all this with a protection train following it around as well.
What if, last Friday evening, the track 4 shuttle got a bad motor.
Except, since there are three shuttle tracks, mightn't they just leave it there until the optimal time for doing the (very complicated) move you described?
The old southbound express track (track 2) is the one that's covered over. Very odd that they built a double-width merge between track 3 (old northbound express) and track 1 (old southbound local). But, I wonder if there's a space for a scissors switch between tracks 3 and 4, somewhere west of GC and east of TS?
Even if there were, though, I don't see the switches in place for my hypothetical journey. You'd probably have to wrong-rail from south of Union Square if not all the way from City Hall. And to do THAT, you'd have to shut down the IRT during a business day. Not gonna happen.
Oh well.
Can they run a three car train on the mainline in an emergency?
#3 West End Jeff
They can run a three car train any time they feel like it. And, it doesn't need a protection train following it around. Transit rules prohibit running single cars anywhere except inside a barn. Two cars trains are not a problem (with one exception) - witness the Revenue Collector. The exception is someone 'gapping' the train, ie no shoes on the third rail. I've witnessed this twice, both times with 4 or more cars - the first was a 5 car Garbage Train that gapped north of Chambers St on the southbound express (granted only two cars have motors and one car didn't work); the other 5 R142 cars in Westchester Yard on the lead, all motors working.
As for the southbound move, you only need to take the train north of 96 St before switching ends and going south.
(So, my question to subtalkers is how about having church bells ring throughout the city from 2 to 2:35 PM, if indeed Mayor Bloomberg and
MTA administration decide to re-create the opening to the moment?)
All church bells in the City were supposed to ring on New Years Eve at 6:00 p.m., for the first time since WWII, in memory of the disaster. I stepped outside my door are could barely hear a single bell somewhere. It didn't seem to work.
If the City and State aren't broke, and if it is a weekend day, I'd like to see the subway made free for a day with commemorative items given to all comers.
>>If the City and State aren't broke, and if it is a weekend day, I'd like to see the subway made free for a day with commemorative items given to all comers.<<
I am all for the commemorative items, but against the free fare. If anything sell commemorative Metrocards for a 5 cent fare to be used once on that day only. I don't know if the TA will be using tokens by October 2004 or not. Throwing open the gates for free rides will do more than just make commuters happy, but may make them crime victims with more than the usual number of criminals and lowlifes streaming in.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe a one-time only free fare won't be such a bad idea. In the past there has been New Year's Eves where the fare was free. And there has been some weekends in 1994-95 where there has been off peak fares on the turnstiles. So it's not out of the question. Police would probably be out in force that day and it wouldn't be a matter of just letting anybody go in. But stay tuned!
Tokens will still be around by 2004. Maybe after that day they will no longer be used. But that is 2 1/2 years from now. Things can change and surely will
How about a special edition token only available on that day. Ditto for Metrocards.
Special edition tokens and cards will undoubtly be out. I doubt if they'll be available for just 5 cents.
Tokens will still be around by 2004. Maybe after that day they will no longer be used.
I highly doubt it. There will almost certainly be a fare hike between now and then, and I can't imagine the TA would allow hoarding by continuing to use tokens past whatever date the hike takes effect.
Of course, if people buy a lot more tokens just before a fare hike, MTA' potential fare loss is mitigated to some degree by the receipt of a lot of money up front. If this cash is then invested, it earns some of the $ that the TA would have made by enforcing the fare hike on each ride. Some, but not all.
>>> Throwing open the gates for free rides will do more than just make commuters happy, but may make them crime victims with more than the usual number of criminals and lowlifes streaming in. <<<
I think your fear of a crime wave is unwarranted. In Los Angeles we had a fare holiday when the Red Line was extended to North Hollywood, and although the crowds were much greater than usual, up to the point where they had to set up barriers to control the lines at the new terminal, there was no increase in crime. Also after the last MTA strike there was an advertized four day fare holiday on both trains and buses to welcome back riders, and again no crime wave, and only about 10% more riders than with the normal fare.
Tom
Whe the Blue Line first opened, the rides were free, and the Sheriff's Dept. patrolled the trains. Even though the line passes through "gang turf," the message offered was clear - the Blue Line was off-limits for gang activity. Deputies arrested a few gang members for trying to scratch their signs onto the train, but it was peaceful other than that.
if it is a weekend day
It'll be a Wednesday.
Faith is in your heart and soul....the bells are between your ears. CI Peter
The Manny B should be fully open by that day. AirTrain will be operating, and the first Second Av construction contract let out by then. Your ceremony also could be a celebration of our fully restored and revitalized subway - a system that can take you anywhere you want to go.
"Your ceremony also could be a celebration of our fully restored and revitalized subway - a system that can take you anywhere you want to go."
This gives me another idea: If the 2nd avenue subway is actually approved, there have been reports that construction could start in 2004. Perhaps 10/27 would be an appropriate day for the groundbreaking, as we celebrate the past and look ahead to the future! -Nick
If the 2nd avenue subway is actually approved, there have been reports that construction could start in 2004. Perhaps 10/27 would be an appropriate day for the groundbreaking
That's brilliant! Although, groundbreaking for the Stubway is [ahem] a rather less glorious cause than for a City Hall-to-137th Street line. Maybe I shouldn't quibble ....
A ceremony marking the start of construction of the Second Avenue Subway was held on October 27, 1972 (1968-1973: THE TEN-YEAR PROGRAM AT THE HALFWAY MARK, Metropolitan Transportation Authority, page 38; photo shows Sen. Javits, Gov. Rockefeller, US Transportation Sec. Volpe, Mayor Lindsay, and MTA Chairman Ronan). Has anybody here ridden a Second Avenue Subway train lately?
David
None of the dignitaries could make a dent in the asphalt pavement, so they had a construction worker do the honors with a jackhammer.
One thing I, as well as other subtalkers may be hoping for on October 27, 2004 is for a recreation of the opening of the subway. At least a half an hour before the Mayor drove the first subway out of the original City Hall station at 2:35 PM, factories blew their whistles in honor of the opening. Today, however...all the factories are closed. So, my question to subtalkers is how about having church bells ring throughout the city from 2 to 2:35 PM, if indeed Mayor Bloomberg and MTA administration decide to re-create the opening to the moment? Perhaps those church bells that are computerized can chime out a tune like "I've Been Working on the Railroad."
I've got an even better idea. Totally rework the city's economy, starting with municipal bankruptcy and a massive reduction of government's role in peoples' lives, slash taxes to Sunbelt levels, and just maybe the city will be filled once again with factories and their well-paying jobs.
and just maybe the city will be filled once again with factories and their well-paying jobs.
Why should it be? The era of factories in the city is dead. Do you think we should also restructure the city so that farming could make a comeback? What about the clamming industry that once thrived along the bay? Why not go all the way and bring back fur trapping?
Especially fur trapping.
:0)
and just maybe the city will be filled once again with factories and their well-paying jobs.
Why should it be? The era of factories in the city is dead. Do you think we should also restructure the city so that farming could make a comeback? What about the clamming industry that once thrived along the bay? Why not go all the way and bring back fur trapping?
There is no reason why the factory era should be dead. The city offers ample industrial-zoned land, proximity to transportation hubs and marketplaces, and most of all a large labor force eager for work. Demolish some of these obsolete multifloor brick factory buildings you see in Brooklyn and elsewhere, offer the land at reasonable prices along with tax breaks, and you'll see more and more manufacturers putting up modern factories and creating jobs.
Demolish some of these obsolete multifloor brick factory buildings you see in Brooklyn and elsewhere, offer the land at reasonable prices along with tax breaks, and you'll see more and more manufacturers putting up modern factories and creating jobs.
I disagree. Even though those "multifloor brick factory buildings" may not have manufacturing in them, they are increasingly adaptively reused as housing. And to pay the rent, those people have jobs somewhere.
Virtually any new large industrial factory today is built on a "greenfield" that was formerly farm. Look at the Japanese & German automakers' new plants in Kentucky, Alabama, etc. Single story plants are far, far cheaper to build, and you can then pave the acres of land needed for the parking for all the workers.
NYC's future is not manufacturing of the bulk commodity sort. It may be in small, fine, high-value manufacturing done by skilled workers. It could be in distrbution (Brooklyn freight terminal connected to cross-harbor freight tunnel). But within the 5 boros, even if you did assemble enough land for a modern high-volume industrial plant, you'd get the rest of the nabe/boro complaining (justifiably) that you were obliterating almost a square mile for only XXX jobs.
NYC's future is not manufacturing of the bulk commodity sort. It may be in small, fine, high-value manufacturing done by skilled workers. It could be in distrbution (Brooklyn freight terminal connected to cross-harbor freight tunnel). But within the 5 boros, even if you did assemble enough land for a modern high-volume industrial plant, you'd get the rest of the nabe/boro complaining (justifiably) that you were obliterating almost a square mile for only XXX jobs.
I am thinking in terms of small, high-value manufacturing. It indeed is unlikely that a million-square-foot plant would be feasible within the city limits. But manufacturing on a smaller scale is a different matter.
>>> you'll see more and more manufacturers putting up modern factories and creating jobs. <<<
But it will be much too long a commute to bring in the Malaysians with their $3.00 per day wages to fill the new factory jobs. :-)
Tom
Indian breeding trade All the way. YEAH!
LOL!! :-) -Nick
I'd like to see a restored Low-V or High-V be used for revenue service on the shuttle line that day.
Perhaps they could bring out the Museum Lo-Vs, although I understand they need some work. Regardless of what they plan to do, I will be in the city on 10/27/04 one way or another.
"Regardless of what they plan to do, I will be in the city on 10/27/04 one way or another."
If its possible, how great would it be if subtalkers gathered together on this day and enjoyed whatever festivities are being offered. -Nick
Chatham Square is open tonight. If we get enough intrest, we may even do some trivia, a rather fun activity. Please point your browsers to www.subtalklive.com.
Anyone with information if the 143's passed the 30-day test this past week? If so, what is the next step before the MU's are placed in actual service?
Yesterday I rode one of the newly rerouted Staten Island Express Bus Routes and saw many interesting things along the New Jersey Turnpike portion of the route:
1. Secaucus Transfer. From the outside it looks a lot more done than it does from the inside (maybe that's just because of the light). This is also the cheapest way to see it once the NJT fares go up.
2. Northeast Corridor. Strange feeling being on an MTA bus looking at Amtrak and NJT trains speeding alongside.
3. Lots of freight.
4. Newark Airport.
5. SIR North Shore bridge into NJ from the Goethalls. Akin to looking at the Hellgate from the Triboro, except no chance of seeing a train here.
If anyone else wants to do it, here are some maps (PDF format):
SI Bus Map
Service Guide
The above haven't been updated since September but the times and stops on SI are correct.
routes in Manhattan (updated)
Notice announcing the new service patterns (not PDF).
The fare is $3. $1.50 transfer from subway or local bus. Free transfer from another express bus.
I posted this here instead of bustalk because it's more about the view than the bus.
It seems a man took a nap on the marta tracks north of the Arts Center station... the station was closed for 3 hrs after the death.
Hi guys...i need some help...
I haven't really ventured into the ebay market but I may. I was curious what some people have paid in the past for rollsigns. If some MUNI Boeing rollsigns became available, I may want to go after one...but I was curious what they might be worth.
Thanks. Respond via e-mail if you would like to instead of posting here.
I couldn't tell you about MUNI signs, but what I can tell you is a couple of weeks ago, someone paid over $300 for an original R1/9 front route sign & signbox. Back in November, someone else paid over $700 for a side sign/signbox unit from a BMT standard. Note that both of these were in above average condition, but I don't know about you, that's a bit out of my league. Loose rollsigns from various NYCTA equipment typically sell in the $30 - $50 range. I have a set of front route and destination signs in their boxes from R27/30 equipment (original, not the color replacements) on top of the refrigerator in my garage. I don't plan on selling them anytime soon, but I often wonder how much they would bring. Good luck in your endeavors.
The great thing about e-bay is that you are selling to anyone in the world with a Internet connection vs selling in a room filled with subway researchers/historians (foamers). In addition you have three and up to 10 days to make up your mind if you have to have it.
Since NYC subway researchers/historians are found all over the world and most have a professional career, we long for things that brings back the good old days.
So you have to take a chance and think of how much you are willing to spend for an item as a buyer or as a seller guess how much you think it is worth. Run the item on e-bay and watch to see what happens.
One day a 1960's map can go for $50 or more, the next week the same map go for only $10.00.
Good luck
Phil Hom
(e-bay jayst370@aol.com)
To add to what Phil said, you have to remember that since there is no place you could go and buy the item for a fixed price that the "value" of the item is undefined. It's value is what you're willing to pay for it. The value to the highest bidder is something else. You need to decide what it's worth TO YOU since Ebay bidders don't tend to follow any patterns.
david makes a good point which i would like to add to. just because an item sold for a certain price doesn't mean that that is its worth. its worth is what the next higher bidder wishes to pay. when i say next highest bidder, i don't necessarily mean from that specific auction.
It would appear that the LIRR is using (beyond repair) M-1s for slime train duty. Thursday, at Hillside it appeared that they had two consists, each a single M-1 sandwiched betwen two MP-15s. I didn't get the consist numbers but will try on Monday PM.
Dude, What are slime trains?!?!?
Slime trains are special consists which deposit a traction/cleaning agent upon the rails to prevent loss of traction when matter like leaves make the rails slick. Right TD???
This time of year it might also be a de-icer.
Gel spreaders. SEPTA also has such a train. In winter weather, some slimy substance is spread onto the rail heads to improve traction.
SEPTA actually has two gel trains; one for the ex-Reading and one for the ex-Pennsy lines.
SEPTA is using FA-1 #615 on the Reading side and F-7 #622 on the Pennsy side. The F-7 has been repainted since the photo was taken inside the Frazer shop on July 21.
I thought the gel trains were mainly used in fall due to the leaf problem. Is this something that's used in the winter also?
What is the slime made of?
The latest issue of the NYD ERA Bulletin reports that these
are ex 9401 and 9591, now E401 and E591. All of the P-wire
braking package has been removed and replaced with standard
train-air control valves (ABDX?) and the couplers have been
changed out to [what the TA would call] MCB.
Thanks for the info; I have #9402 in an Odd Couple with #9083.
Could someone try and find out who #9592 has shacked up with?
thanks
wayne
I'm surprised they didn't retain a couple of old diesel coaches for such use. Maybe that's why 2907 & 9 are still on the property.
Throughout the years, there have been a number of various old diesel coaches used for these purposes.
Back around 1970 or so, they had a couple old P-54D "ping-pongs" that were painted silver and blue with yellow end striping. There was also one of the former Boston & Maine bar cars (I believe it was 7538??) converted to the gel spreader. It sat for a few years on the south side of the Morris Park engine servicing area near the coal tower.
Actually, it wasn't a couple of P54Ds, but an arch roof MP54 4791, I believe. It rusted out so bad that the Riverhead/39 group didn't want it and was scrapped about 10 years ago. The LIRR had 2 B&M cars for the purpose. I don't know what they do now. Interesting, but not surprising, that 2 LIRR power packs are being used as such on SEPTA, but the LIRR didn't have the initiative for themselves.
Thanks for the correction on that car number....yes, it WAS an MP54 control cab. Just checked my slides to see.
I haven't been on the board for a while so I just have to know. Did it make it past the 30 day testing?
My guess is that not only did it, but with flying colors. I'm sure we'll have the real answer soon ... but I do expect we'll be quite pleased with the result and the eastern division will FINALLY get first dibs on good new equipment and fast ...
>>I haven't been on the board for a while so I just have to know. Did it make it past the 30 day testing?<<
The R-143s did pass the 30-day test and are getting up grades from what was found on the 30 day test period.
There is a second set of R-143s (#8109-8116) being used for training of crews to familiarize them with the new boys on the block. Hopefully, the first R-143 set will get a well deserved cleaning,
Bill "Newkirk"
Hooray! Looks like relief for the B-division will be coming sooner rather than later. And the Eastern Division will be getting brand-new cars instead of hand-me-downs.
>>Hooray! Looks like relief for the B-division will be coming sooner rather than later.<<
Yes and the added cars couldn't have come at a better time. The additional 212 cars may bring some needed changes and relief.
It also seems that Kawasaki has learned from working out the bugs on the R-142As that made the R-143 a success.
Bill "Newkirk"
From what i've heard CP brought a few more into town over the weekend, which might already be unloaded and on the property. i suspect new cars will be coming in on a regular basis until all the cars are in.
Hmmmm, 212 cars. That comes out to 26 and a half trains. Think the TA could get Kawasaki to squeeze out four more cars for an even 27 eight-car trains? I'm just saying that it might be beneficial to the TA to have as many full-trains as possible.
But it's good to know that relief is on the way.
Remember, some of those 212 cars will be in the shop for inspection, repair, or SMS at any given time. They're not all going to be available for service at once, at least not often enough that they can all be counted as being available.
David
Well, let's say that 25 or 24 trains go into service... this is going on the L line and the L currently uses 21 trains during rush hour. Say there's an extra 3 trains. Those were possibly going to the M line as said on this board. This would only replace the L fleet and put the L fleet somewhere else, right?
And the Eastern Division will be getting brand-new cars instead of hand-me-downs.
When it comes time for the 160s, the eastern division, will again be getting new cars, right? As well as which ever line will be using the CI R40s.
I think by the time we see R160's, the R40 slants (at least the pre-GOH'ed non A/C units) will be scrapped.
Hey Juice I know you can answer this question along with other subtalkers, what's the differnce between the r142&142a suspension? I've already noticed a while ago, the r142's air spring setup not to mention the trucks are quite bulky. But what type is the Kawasaki using? Is it standard or air? I've never heard anything when I ride a 142a, unlike the 142 you can hear the noise it's making every time the car rocks a little. You hear no such sound on the 142a, I've directed this question towards you because you seem to spend alot more time underneath them. Also if any other subtalkers can answer the questions, it's just as fine. I'm not trying to discriminate!
I have not personally inspected the suspension of the Kawasaki R142A but I do know it is of the conventional truck design. It is solid and may have journal bearings that ride up and down like all other TA trucks. It does lack the air spring/torsion bar components of the Bombardier..........it will last as long of all the other TA trucks in service and will not engage the massive failure rate of brake shoes and Tread Brake Units that the Bombardier has with its floating axles. Just my opinion: I expect ALL the R142 trucks to be extensively modified or completely replaced within the next five years. One thing to note when the cars go by...the third rail shoe appears to be very small. Just because it's small doesn't mean it cannot perform. CI Peter
Let me add an interesting point before I call it quits for the night. Upon the Adtranz truck is a fixed metal pin. It is inside of a metal rectangle attached to the axle assembly. What i point out to my fellow CI's is that this device is a 'keeper' to contain an awful lot of movement. IF the R142 had floating brake units upon the axles like disc brakes on a car....you wouldn't see so many of my postings. CI Peter
What is the relationship between these devices and the shock absorbers/yaw dampers I saw installed on trucks at the 207 St shops?
Are these parts inter-related in the assembly?
For secondary support between the carbody and trucks, the Kawasaki R-142As rely on side dampers, as opposed to the air bag (w/ coil spring?) of the R-142. The main suspension would be heavy rubber (and usually quite rigid) chevrons inside the truck frames.
Side damper configuration is very common industry wide. Similar configurations on MNRR and LIRR MUs, rapid transit cars in Boston and elsewhere. Can't recall off top of my head, but this might be the first such application on the NYC Subway.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Anyone have this game, or specifically, the instruction manual for it that I could have a copy of? I just got a PSX as a hand-me-up from my brother, but not all of his old games have the instructions included.
-Hank
if i had it my way you would have all of the lines in all of the american cities !!
man would that be a lot of fun !!
woooooooo.................lol!!
Now, how much data would that take and what is the capacity of a play station disc? Maybe you should look at making a 'box set' instead.
-Robert King
In reading the thread about the G train, it struck me what I have been missing for a while.
The MTA cares only about Manhattan and could care less about Brooklyn.
I mean the Bergen tower should have been repaired by now. The V train should have been extended to Church Avenue and express service instituted. The G train should not have been blown to pieces like it was.
It is obvious from everything they do that the only thing they care about is Manhattan. Brooklyn might just as well be a foreign city as far as they are concerned.
One should see how crowded the F trains are at 9 or 10 o'clock at night. Sure they should be crowded at rush hours but if people are standing outside rush hours, then service is inadequate.
A little bit of a compromise would have been extending the V train into Brooklyn along with the F. There is ample room on the F trakcs for that. The fact they didn't shows that what I am saying is the truth.
So you're saying that because in your opinion, the Culver Line has inadequate service that the TA doesn't give a damn about the whole of Brooklyn?
What a crock.
The TA didn't care so much about Brooklyn that they didn't institute Brooklyn express service on the A line on weekends.
And they didn't rebuild the Franklin Shuttle.
And they didn't create a popular transfer from the S at Botanic Garden to the IRT.
And they didn't give the 143's to the L line which serves.........could it be? Brooklyn.
And they didn't rebuild the Sea Beach express tracks.
And they're not in the process of completely rebuilding the Coney Island station.
The F line does not need express service in Brooklyn, nor does it need V service in Brooklyn. This is why the TA didn't fully rebuild Bergen Tower since there hasn't been a demand for express service.
Maybe you should move to a borough with tip-top subway service................like The Bronx.
Or better still: Staten Island.
:0)
Bronx...tip top service...#5 off line in the morning...#2 taking forever to go.
A crock it is not. Brooklyn, the borough, has undergone a rapid and large revitalization in recent years, and the MTA has done little to keep up.
F service is, and has been inadequate for years. The huge influx into Park Slope and Cobble hill has not been met with any useful service increase. People don't just stand til 9 at night. It is more like 1-2am. The V is a waste of time...and is looking like a failure. Adding a line isn't as important as adding real service. Sending a pokey local along every once in awhile solves nothing.
The Franklin Shuttle was rebuilt because they had no choice. It was the most neglected and decrepit line in the system...it either had to be fixed or destroyed. I guess we should be grateful we didn't lose it...
As for the A, is this new service, or simply restoring service that existed before? The A express on weekends is of benefit to Queens A riders at least as much, if not more, than Brooklyn riders.
The Sea Beach express track may have been rebuilt, now all the need to do is run some trains on it. Worse, the whole 4th avenue situation stinks. People at 45th and 53rd have worse service during rush hour than they have after (with the N express trains by-passing til 7-8pm, this part of the line gets one local until after 7/8...dumb and frustrating.) The M runs empty because it goes nowhere (this is our expanded service?) N&R run half empty in Manhattan, but packed in Brooklyn every morning. I am sure this makes sense to some of you, but I don't see the logic.
The whole situation with the G is well documented here so I won't mention it in detail. I am sure the fact that it is routed through less affluent areas of the city has everything to do with its' cuts, but, this is no shock.
Jeff was right. Brooklyn is underserved, and it gets worse every day. I am only a daily rider and dependent on the MTA for transit...I am sure I know nothing about it.
boy,as a Brooklyn resident myself,i have to agree on some of your points.I 've said for years,the T.A. DIDN'T GIVE A RATS A$$ about the Eastern Division lines,and look what they did.... put new cars in service over here. So I have decided to take a step back and wait /see aditude...one never knows,right?
The Sea Beach express tracks have been rebuilt? Is that so? Or are you just saying they can run in one direction. Since when have they been rebuilt to run south to Coney Island? I haven't heard of it. Express tracks in one direction is a half-ass solution.
One Sea Beach express track has been rebuilt and is used for General Orders and such. It's reverse signalled, so trains can run in either direction. And no, the track does not go as far as Coney Island.
David
Dave: The Sea Beach tracks are reversed signaled? Very good to hear they can run in both directions. They don't go to Coney Island. That is understandable since so many trains converged there, but I would like to see my beloved Sea Beach become the Coney Island and Brooklyn Cyclone train that gets the beach people and baseball fans to the sites and sounds of Coney Island. I wonder if there is any chance of that.
Very good to hear they can run in both directions.
"They"? Nope. Only one of the tracks is reverse signalled. The NB track can go from end-end. The SB one is completly disconnected from 4th Ave to Kings Highway. If they use the express track to get from 4th Ave to Stillwell, it'd go over the NB track until Kings Highway where it would switch back to the SB track.
Maybe he should have clarified his statement and said, " Certain parts of Bklyn." Would that make you feel better? The fact of the matter is that Bklyn. has been treated like a ( red headed step child)for years, and you can`t change or reason away, what to us Brooklynites is cold hard fact. Could you imagine Queens Blvd paxs during rush hour, waiting for F trains on 30 min headways; Well G train Have grown to expect this type of service.
Can't say that I totally agree......
What happened to the G with the arrival of the V is not the end of the world. Passengers that went to Queens Plaza to crossover for a Manhattan bound train do it one stop sooner, and probably get some room on a V vs. an overcrowded F. Yes, if you were continuing your trip into Queens, it's an inconvenience, but you can change for a Queens Blvd. Local (V) or the 7 at a new transfer not previously available.
As for Culver Express service, not enough cars, demand, whatever.................
You know what I think? You Bronx guys are going to be shocked. I think that borough has it best of them all. Between the IRT and the IND, the borough is completely covered by both elevated and subway lines. That's what I noticed anyway. I'm also informed that there is excellent bus service from the trains to points not covered by the subway, which really is only a few blocks. Not a bad walk for those who don't want to be lazy.
Do you follow this board? Or do you post whenever you feel like complaining about something? You haven't posted here for quite a while, but maybe you are a frequent reader and don't post too often. A "rapid" (smirk) transit system is different from a commuter railroad system. In a rapid transit system, schedules are not made up as to allow every rider a seat for the entire length of the line in the matter a commuter railroad is set up. Sure there are people standing on the F at 9 or 10 PM at night, but as I said to you when you ranted about the same situation on the A line some months back, does the whole entire train have an SRO situation on it in every car? What about the next train? Maybe the train you see is running late if the next train does not have the same situation? And about extending the V to Church Ave with express service, haven't you read on this board that the TA does not currently have enough cars to do this currently? The arrival of new R143 cars will allow the TA to add cars and service to existing lines as these cars are introduced to the L line. Every day without fail someone has to post onto this board the fact that the TA does not have enough B division cars right now.
Bill:
Do you memorize what every person says and then "dis" them for an opinion? The purpose of a board such as this is to express one's opinion which I have a right to...I don't think I rant as I don't post that often....
I used the decision on the G train to re-enforce my opinion. The MTA did show its disdain for the people of Brooklyn by truncating the G train, isn't it so. They made a decision of putting the interests of the commuters in Queens going into Manhattan ahead of the interests of the G riders. To me, and I am entitled to my opinion, it is just another example of the way I feel.
Now if you are telling me that in your opinion I am wrong, that's okay. You are entitled to your opinion too. I still believe that if trains are crowded in the off hours then service is inadequate. You don't have to be so angry in answering me. But don't worry...you've heard the last from me on this board. It just isn't worth it to try to engage in a dialogue and give one's opinion no matter how wrong others may think it is...
I agree with one point of your post.
I do agree that G service is seriously lacking. The line needs to have 6 cars Monday-Friday. The level of overcrowding has confirmed this.
However, IMO, the G line's weekday terminal should remain at Court Square. Queens Blvd. service overrules G crosstown service solely on ridership figures.
Maybe I have a good memory! There are a few Jeffs who post here and Jaguar is a fancy car!. I respect your opinion, but I am trying to give you facts as to why the TA has no choice in what they are doing. The reality is the TA must serve the most people with direct Manhattan service, because most people are headed to/from Manhattan and utilise all trackage given to them by the powers that are. I certainly do not dis you for your opinion, it is simply I do not agree with it. The TA brass who make the service plan decisions have no choice but to trunicate the G train and to run 4 cars. Not enough cars are availiable today, right now. In a few months from now, yes, more cars will be availiable. In addition, even if they had the cars, there is no way to run a third line to or thru Continental Ave. on the local track since the V runs on an a 6 to 8 minute peak rush hour headway as well as the R. You would have absolute gridlock due to clearing trains of passengers, trains switching tracks, sweeping and relaying trains. With apologies to another poster who diagrees with me and claims I do not do my homework, the trunication of the G is a direct result of the new 63rd St. hookup with the Queens IND. The 63rd St. line when conceived was not supposed to hook up with the Queens IND, but since the new line it was to serve was never built because of lack of funds, it was hooked up to the Queens IND so it could lose its nickname: "the tunnel to nowhere". All the TA operations brass is doing is playing the cards dealt to them by those who could not get the job of that new line to Queens accomplished.
Yes it was,but not at it;s present location.IT was suppose to go to forest hills and merge at Continental ave.
But if it did merge at Continental and not at 36th St., then the current service plan would not be necessary particularly if the merge was east of Continental.
If you look closly at the 1968 rail expantion program,it shows the 63rd street line with connections to both the superexpress and the Queens Blvd local tracks...
Correct, the G would have still been truncated. The second 63rd Street line would have used the bypass and provided a third line east of Forest Hills. This would have allowed Archer Avenue to exist while providing express service to 179th Street without forcing local passengers along Hillside to change for the express at 71.
Bill: I am not as up to date on this as you since I live in California, but I do agree that however reluctantly it was done, the G could not be permitted to go to Queens Blvd. There would have been gridlock up the giggy and people would be late for work as a matter of routine. Here is my gripe, though. Why doesn;t the G continue in Brooklyn to Church Avenue instead of terminating at Smith and Ninth Street? From what I know only the F continues on from that station, and though you could transfer from 4th Avenue, that seems to somewhat inconvenient for riders who might be in a hurry. Isn't ridership adequate from Smith & 9th to Church?
I honestly don't know what the thinking of the TA is about sending the G to Church Ave. other than the old reason: not enough cars. There would be higher crew costs because of the longer route, and the crews would presumably make one less round trip. I would like to see the G go to Church Ave. because of the transfer at Fourth Ave./Ninth St. Too many G riders at Smith/Ninth currently have to transfer to the F to go the one stop. Perhaps when CIYD assumes responsibility for the G line rolling stock the line will be extended to Church Ave. in order to lay up and put in most trainsets at the south end of the line.
From what I've heard, the G goes to Church Av because the 8 min headway, combined with the time that it takes to relay & change ends at 4th Av, could result in congestion on the F & G from Carroll St to the switch at 4th Av. By having the G service turn at Church Av, it keeps the F service running smoothly.
Going south?
Cleaning the train kills the time. Going over the switch does lose time but not so much the whole downgrade is timed.
For pure speed send it right to the middle at Church. Of course that would mess up the work trains and the F putins.
What kills the time is when there is a G train currently in the relay position at 4th Av, and there is another G train waiting to get in. Obviously, the F trains would get backed up behind the waiting G. This happens quite often on the weekends, at least it did during the old OPTO Court Sq weekend service pattern.
EEK that would be MURDER. I have never seen it. By the time the train gets cleaned my leader is usualyy ready to leave or the tower throws them out. That was on 10 mins not 8 that could be much worse.
My usual experience is to wait a minute at Carroll. Or oging North and seeing an F waiting to get it to Smith.
I see the problem as everyone getting nickel and dimed you see it as a few people gettting hammered. Could part of this be the G crews running too hot? Then Bergen should freeze them out.
This can't be a popular thread, no one was come in saying bring back the Culver Express/fix Bergen Lower.
It isn't the culver express idea so much. I don't think anyone can seriously suggest that is needed. I think the idea that more F service through at least park slope (i.e. the V) would make some sense given the population boom there and the SRO on F trains well into the night. Queens got their big upgrade, now it is time for some brooklyn love
i, for one, happen to agree.
I was just thinking about several threads like about the IRT or something and someone would break in "And that is why bergen lower must be fixed". Sort of like Carthage Dilenda Est, excuse the poor latin.
Of course that would mess up the work trains and the F putins.
It would also mess up the F Yeltsins and the F Gorbachevs.
"The 63rd St. line when conceived
was not supposed to hook up with the Queens IND, but since the new line it was to serve was never built because of lack of
funds, it was hooked up to the Queens IND so it could lose its nickname: "the tunnel to nowhere". "
No, that's not quite accurate. The local connection to Queens Blvd was always an option, and both the bypass and the connection could have been built originally, given enough funds (and no NYC financial meltdown).
The Connector, as built, is a partial accomplishment of the original intent.
Jeff: That is the worst thing you could do. You must NOT leave the board. There is room enough on here for all of us. I do not know what Bill was upset about but I can tell you he has been very helpful to me in the past. Keep posting and don't be afraid to give your opinions, but be ready to take heat when someone disagrees with you. I get it all the time with my Sea Beach rantings, but with the exception of one jerk from the Bronx, it is all in good fun.
Mot people here will say "You're wrong and this is why." (Even when sometimes they in fact are wrong.) That's a legit form of argument.
Unfortunately a few people say "You're wrong, and you're really stupid too." The only thing to do then is to ignore it and move on.
Let's face it. The TA doesn't favor a particular borough. They do however:
- Favor the many over the fewer (hence the G gets screwed to the benefit of Queens Blvd).
- Favor traffic to/from Manhattan over traffic within or between outer boroughs, not because they love Manhattan but because of the many vs. few issue. Most (not all) traffic is to/from Manhattan.
- Do things for political reasons, or to pacify a particular pressure group (e.g., empty M trains to Brooklyn all weekend).
- Make semi-arbitrary decisions or decisions of convenience. To pick an example, maybe the Culver line deserves V trains slightly more than some other line deserves the service it is getting, but it just happens to be more convenient for the TA the way it is. Then again, maybe the only way to deload the Culver line would cause even worse crowding elsewhere.
- Pinch pennies, sometimes wisely, sometimes foolishly.
I can see lots of arguments that the TA is not perfect, that it makes dumb decisions, etc. And we should all continue to complain about those decisions. But let's not attribute those decisions to prejudice against a particular borough when a much better explanation might be lack of money, convenience, or laziness. And often they even do make the correct decision.
One should see how crowded the F trains are at 9 or 10 o'clock at night. Sure they should be crowded at rush hours but if people are standing outside rush hours, then service is inadequate.
ROTFL. Every time I've ridden the 1/2 local after midnight, not only has it been SRO north of 42, there have been more passengers standing than sitting. One time, passengers had difficulty fitting into the car -- i.e., rush hour crowding. This is with ten-minute headways. To have any hope of eliminating standees on the line, headways would have to be cut in half. Do any other lines have as many tph after midnight as during rush hour? This would probably be the first.
If there are no standees, there's too much service. The TA should move the extra trains and crews to lines that are crowded, or save money for all of us by reducing service.
When I ride the subway, I assume I'll be standing. Once in a while I get a nice surprise. That is, except on the Brooklyn BMT lines, which seem to run around mostly empty on weekends.
A little bit of a compromise would have been extending the V train into Brooklyn along with the F. There is ample room on the F trakcs for that. The fact they didn't shows that what I am saying is the truth.
No, it simply shows that there aren't enough cars for B Division service increases. I'm sure, as the R-143's roll in, that this is one plan the TA is considering.
I hate to break it to you, but per passenger, Manhattan gets the worst service. We also pay more per mile than you do in Brooklyn.
A Times article comments on the subway tunnel at Ground Zero. This links to its 2nd page:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/13/nyregion/13SITE.html?pagewanted=2
--start quote--
The lower reaches of West Broadway, just north of ground zero, are being ripped open so that debris that fell into the 1 and 9
subway tunnel can be extracted.
[...]
The subway tunnel floor, ceiling and walls must be rebuilt, new track installed, the signal and communications system replaced, all somehow by November or December, when the line is set to reopen.
--end quote--
It sounds as if this will all be cut-and-cover, which of course, is fastest.
I assume the section of W.B'way referred to is between 7WTC and the Post Office.
As part of the rebuild, this segment of W.B'way is where you want a pedestrian subway, a mezzanine. For pedestrians headed to the subway this way, just about anything is better than being asked to cross Vesey Street. You want entrances at least at the north side of Barclay St. both on W.B'way and on Greenwich St. Something thru the 7WTC basement would be satisfactory, tho' the idea of going thru what will be a ConEd substation gives one pause. The plans for this need to be finalized just about NOW.
I believe the tracks are immediately below street level at Vesey and W Broadway (street level is considerably lower there than at Vesey and Church). So they would either need to sink the tracks deeper or build passageways on both east and west side of the tracks. And sinking the tracks deeper would inconvenience all the people who aren't coming from north of Vesey (plus delay the schedule and cost a lot of money).
Still, your idea has great merit. I've always hated crossing Vesey St there because when you do have a walk sign the cars coming south on W Broadway think it's their God-given right to turn left or right onto Vesey without slowing down.
The plans for this [pedestrian subway or mezzanine] need to be finalized just about NOW.
My bet is that to get the 1 line up and running by November, this will be as quick and dirty a job as the TA has ever done. I don't think there will be ANY amenities of any kind, and remember the Cortlandt station will just vanish. (I'll be curious to ride through and see what's left, a year or so hence.)
This situation won't be permanent, though. Lots of planning not only for the PA's mega transit hub, but also for redevelopment and redesign of the surrounding areas, is being done. I'd say that 10 years from now, the Vesey/West Broadway intersection could look very different than it did in WTC days. Esp. if they restore some of the streets ripped out for the WTC, thus slightly relieving traffic at that corner.
They'll have to order the elevators now, to get them in place, as promised, by November.
With prefab available, it may be quick, but I don't think you'll be displeased by the results. TA engineers are resourceful.
With prefab available, it may be quick, but I don't think you'll be displeased by the results. TA engineers are resourceful.
I bet the line reopens before all elevator work is completed on the two surviving stations. We've all used stations with areas roped off while they install elevators. Reopening the line and restoring pre-9/11 IRT service patterns on the West Side is the important part. Elevators are "bells & whistles" in this case, though it's great they can be added as a byproduct.
And, hey, I'll be grateful to the TA for just getting the line up and running only 14 months after 9/11. (Be nice if they could do it ON 9/11/02, but even I won't push for that!)
Prefab WHAT? Elevator kits?
I sure hope they don't put any streets back in. Yes, the whole place should be very pedestrian friendly (more so than the old WTC), but streets benefit the few over the many.
Even the convoluted passageways of the WTC were a pleasure relative to trying to navigate the narrow streets of the eastern financial district. You could walk from Church St. and Park Place to anywhere in the WFC outside of fare control without ever having to cross a street.
(Of course, you could get lost doing it because the signs were bad).
I sure hope they don't put any streets back in. Yes, the whole place should be very pedestrian friendly (more so than the old WTC), but streets benefit the few over the many.
I should probably say "street alignments." They might be pedestrian-only. But there is a major need to reconnect the WTC site to its surroundings and integrate it into downtown and the WFC area. The old WTC behaved like it had landed from outer space, totally turning its back on 3 of its 4 sides. Now that the surrounding area is so much better (West Side Highway gone, WFC built, Battery Park City, etc.), whatever's built should be accessible from all of those places.
And restoring major streets gives you sightlines and understandable surface transport. NYC is a city of walkers, always has been, always will be. Underground connex are fine *in addition* but primary circulation is up top. And you'll get plenty of underground circulation if the PA's mega-transit-hub is built!
Street-aligned pedestrian malls would be great. I agree, people on the surface as well as underground need to be able to get through from point A to point B without the detours that the WTC forced.
Street-aligned pedestrian malls would be great. I agree, people on the surface as well as underground need to be able to get through from point A to point B without the detours that the WTC forced.
Precisely my thoughts. Although I bet if they're ped-only, they'll still be accessible to fire trucks. For obvious reasons.
I don't think the street grid necessarily has to be put back in, but entryways to the complex on all four sides should be at street level. Rebuiling the Great Wall of Vescey Street now, especially if there is to be some sort of memorial on site, makes no sense.
However because of the angle of the surrounding streets. they will have to decide on what, if any, underground shopping area will be put in place and on what level it will be located. In the old WTC, the mall was one level below ground at Church, but over on West, that same level was even with the street. So to create street level access points on all four sides, any underground mall will have to either slope down towards the west to remain one level underground, or it will have to drop down one level somewhere near the middle of the site.
A gradual slope (wwhich would be matched by a slope down towards the Hudson at the aboveground plaza level) would seem more user friendly, but to do that the MTA will have to drop the tunnel for the IRT 1/9 down about 10 feet or so when the rebuild it, in order to allow for adeqate clearance. A mall that drops down one level just after crossing over the IRT tunnel would require fewer changes on the MTA's part, but would still create a "wall" situation on Vescey and Liberty at West Broadway on the north and Greewhich on the south (though direct mall entrances there would partially solve that problem).
I think the answer is a 2-level mall, 1 and 2 levels below Church St. The lower level would admittedly be bisected by the 1/9 line, but it would have the advantage of coming out at street level on West and Vesey Streets, as well as providing a passageway under the N/R at Church St.
The upper level could connect to street level at Church St and feed into rebuilt north and south bridges over West St and the upper level mall at the WFC.
With proper escalators all this can be quite smooth for pedestrians.
I would guess if they plan to interconnect the IRT, BMT, IND and PATH trains, there would be a second sub-level to the mall, which would include the transfer tunnels along with the PATH station mezzanine, which presumably would have stores and other services. But the IRT 1/9 tunnel would block connecting both sides of the second-sub level concourse together.
What the MTA and Port Authority should do is drop the IRT tunnel down another 15 feet while they have the chance right now during reconstruction, so that the second level of any evnetual underground mall could be extended all the way from Church to West Streets. That would also allow them to put the IRT fare control area on the second level (along with the IND/BMT/PATH transfer tunnel, probably along the Vesaey Street side of the concourse) and convert the Cortlandt Street station from a side platform arrangement to a center platform, which would half the number of escallators and elevators they would need for the new station to meet ADA requirements (It would also make it easier for unknowing passengers who don't get off the rear five cars before South Ferry to do a cross-platform transfer at Cortlandt and try again).
The northbound 1/9 track coming out of Cortlandt would have to rise up a level just after leaving the station to allow the 2/3 tracks turning from Park Place onto W. Broadway to pass under it, but the distance between Vescey and Park Place is long enough so that the grade wouldn't have to be that steep.
What the MTA and Port Authority should do is drop the IRT tunnel down another 15 feet while they have the chance right now during reconstruction ...
Like I said before, I think the current plan is to slap what's there back together ASAP for a November opening.
However, given that the PA is doing the same thing with PATH *and* planning a relocated Hudston Terminal-site new PATH station, as part of a grand transit-hub scheme ... I'm hoping the TA is doing the same with the IRT.
What opens in Nov 2002 (IRT) and in 2004 (PATH) may well not be what's there for either line 10 years hence. So your design for dropping the IRT to make a better mall could still happen. Just not by November. They could build the new IRT tunnel as part of/at the same time as the PATH station, then switch over and demolish the present, patched-up IRT tunnel. (I also like your idea of making it center platform -- the whole area will be wide open, so they don't have to fit it beneath existing buildings as they did when it was built.)
Since the IRT tunnel divides immediately north of Vesecy, it would be possible to build trackways for an island platform Cortlandt St. station one level below the current tracks but outside their present pathway, which would allow service to continue while the work one level below was done. North of Vescey the tracks would actually be straighter, since the ramps up could meet the existing line after the tracks split apart to allow the 2/3 tracks to come up from Park Place.
Once those tracks are built and connected, they could be put in use and work could begin on building the island platform between those tracks at Cortlandt, and the new mall area and transfer tunnel one level above, where the old tracks used to be.
There would be some service disrptions when they connected the new station to the existing tunnel north of Vescey and south of Liberty and while the new station went in but it would only be marginally worse than what went on between Queens Plaza and 36th Street over the past few years, and the IRT Lex express survived construction of the 59th St. station in the late 50s and early 60s while through service went on. If the bulk of the work was done on weekends and at nights it shouldn't cause that many problems for West Side IRT riders.
My thoughts exactly!
The upper level could connect to street level at Church St and feed into rebuilt north and south bridges over West St and the upper level mall at the WFC.
Well, I'm hoping that the ground and "streets" or whatever slope downwards so that the upper level would only be the eastern half of the site. As noted, escalators make this easy.
But, I'm not sure how much upper level mall at the WFC would remain. It was designed that way just so that the bridge from the WTC across West Street would have something to feed into besides escalators.
All depends if NYS does actually sink West Street below ground level, as they said they wanted to.
If they generally followed the slope of the land for the entire site, any underground mall would probably be two levels between Church and West Broadway/Greewich St., with the new PATH mezzanine on the second sub-level near Church along with the IRT/BMT/IND transfer walkway/tunnel. West of the IRT 1/9 tracks, the upper level of the underground mall would have to disappear, while the second sub-level would continue on to West Street, where it would only be one level below ground. Depending on what they do with West Street itself, there could either be a tunnel to the World Financial Center or if the street is lowered to that level, escallators and elevators up to ground level to walk over to the WFC and Battery Park City.
Depending on what they do with West Street itself, there could either be a tunnel to the World Financial Center or if the street is lowered to that level, escallators and elevators up to ground level to walk over to the WFC and Battery Park City.
Newspaper articles specifically referred to the underground transit mall extending "to WFC". I have to think that would require crossing West Street, which is wide and busy.
Either NYS leaves West Street at grade, and the transit mall goes underneath, or West Street goes underneath and the transit mall ends east of West Street. I would hate to see more bridges West Street -- the WTC/WFC bridge looked like a midwestern downtown somewhere.
Didn't the state just finish rebuilding West Street as a surface-level "urban arterial boulevard?" Despite all of the past plans, I believe the decision was made (due to cost, mainly) to rebuild West Street all the way up the west side as a compromise between an avenue and a highway and to include features like the ped/bike path and improved riverfront access. Of course, the portion around the WTC/WFC might be damaged enough to allow for revisions...
Didn't the state just finish rebuilding West Street as a surface-level "urban arterial boulevard?"
Yep. It's great, and the linear Hudson River Park gets ENORMOUS usage.
I believe the decision was made (due to cost, mainly) to rebuild West Street all the way up the west side as a compromise between an avenue and a highway and to include features like the ped/bike path and improved riverfront access.
Cost, yeah, but also intense community opposition to Westway which is its own thread if not its own BBS!
Of course, the portion around the WTC/WFC might be damaged enough to allow for revisions...
Don't know how damaged the roadway itself is. This is much more about NYS taking advantage of a horrible opportunity to do some better urban planning.
My bet is that to get the 1 line up and running by November, this will be as quick and dirty a job as the TA has ever done. I don't think there will be ANY amenities of any kind, and remember the Cortlandt station will just vanish. (I'll be curious to ride through and see what's left, a year or so hence.)
I don't see how anything else would be possible given the compressed time frame.
Most likely some remnants of Cortlandt will remain visible.
That was the segway into a story being broadcasted on WTOP (wtopnews.com for live feed) about the worst airliner accident pre 9/11 in DC. A Florida Airlines flight that took of from National Airport hit the 14th Street Bridge, since it was very icy and snow was falling, prompting new regulations on how airlines operated in those conditions. Later that day, a MetroRail train derailed and hit a wall, killing 5. Coincidentally, January 13 is also the day WMATA opened their last 5 stations.
I will never forget that date. I lived in Arlington, Virginia at the time. I worked for a tour bus company on West Virginia Avenue in NE DC. Went to get my paycheck, and drove back across the 14th Street bridge, and it took me perhaps 10-15 minutes to get where I lived (Glebe Road & Lee Highway). Turned on the TV to watch the news and saw the plane crash and thought "Geez, I just came across the bridge and didn't see anything!" I wonder to this day how close the timing was of the crash to me driving across the bridge. It was snowing really bad, wouldn't have seen a thing.
I then walked down to the Ballston Metrorail station thinking I'd go over and see what's up. Got to Rosslyn in no time, but then no southbound trains for a LOOOOOONG time. Nobody on Metrorail seemed to know what was going on, the only announcements were "There are unexpected delays for trains bound for National Airport" (the southern terminus at the time). I finally got on a train (within about 30 minutes) and got off at Pentagon and walked over to the river to watch the eerie rescue attempts. The only thing visible was the top foot or so of the Air Florida 737's tail fin.
I remember that day quite vividly, the snowstorm that struck DC caused a lot of panic and overloaded the entire transportation network and that was a major contibutor to the Metrorail overload. Another factor was the foot-dragging on the part of Air Florida in de-icing the plane. To save money, and to get the flight off the ground, they declined a second de-icing treatment.
Another topic, the entire snowfall in the DC area amounted to a measely (by Pennsylvania standards) 7 inches. In a city like Washington DC, 1 inch usually causes a panic.
I remember reading that OPM decided to let everyone out even though Metro and DCPW said to wait so they could prepare for the early rush hour. OPM didn't listen and it made matters worse.
All it takes in Denver is a quarter-inch and they start dumping gravel, gravel everywhere.
For what it's worth, it's also the day that marked the turning point for Howard Stern's career, since his phone call to National Airlines after the crash got him fired in D.C. but also got him major publicity as a new "shock jock" which led to his hiring in New York at WNBC-AM.
For what it's worth, it's also the day that marked the turning point for Howard Stern's career, since his phone call to National Airlines after the crash got him fired in D.C. but also got him major publicity as a new "shock jock" which led to his hiring in New York at WNBC-AM.
What did Howard say (although I can imagine it wasn't in good taste)?
By today's standards it was mild -- Howard called up National Airlines after the crash and asked if he could buy a ticket on a flight to the 14th Street Bridge, which of course was the one the jet hit after taking off from National Airport -- though in the aftermath of the WTC attacks, jokes about airplane crashes are probably as 'out' as they have been in the shock jock world for the past 15 years.
Were it not for the WTC attack, Howard or someone else probably could have easily gotten away with repeating the same fake phone call two months ago and asked American Airlines if they could book a flight from JFK to the Rockaways. I suppose this is part of what they mean when they said "The world changed after September 11."
Actually, that's a common rumor...Howard Stern never actually called them.
AirDisaster.com has a Special Report article about Palm 90 at http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-af90.shtml. This kind of thing is a tragic reminder that each and every air passenger is very much at the mercy of the cockpit crew. One wrong move, and 200+ people are dead. Even so, I still feel safe flying (and working for) the U.S. airline system.
--
Ian Penovich
Grrrrrrrrr
Pull any book from Pratt & Whitney on jet engines, and read it:
WHEN IN DOUBT, USE ANTI-ICE
In fact, there is virtually no performance penalty involved with it.
Further, the crew should have immediately realized with abnormal pressure readings at the throttle position, something was up.
Obviously, they had no experience with cold weather operations, and it seems even little experience with JT-8D engines either.
In any case, why wasn't there a call for more power, when it was obvious that the airspeed wasn't sufficient to maintain flight? Jet engines can be pressed beyond their normal ratings, though this will dammage them and require a diversion toanother airport and a change of planes.
Better than crashing, for sure.
I once heard that had they cleared the bridge by a few feet, the accident wouldn't have been as bad...
I remember that incident rather well. The Florida Airlines Boeing 737 took off, and because too much ice had built up on the wings the plane crashed. I don't remember the accident with the railroad however.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember it, too. Heard the breaking news story as the tragedy unfolded.
I heard the breaking news too as the tragedy unfolded.
#3 West End Jeff
Periodically, I hear the roarof a diesel train (usually a loco with a few cars behind it, but sometimes just the loco) on the R6 line but have never caught sight of it. (This is not the Conrail freight that runs 5 mph through the Manayunk Canal to reach the cardboard box factory on Venice Island). There is no set schedule, as far as I can discern.
Does anyone know what that train is? Is it a SEPTA work train? Is it Norfolk Southern or CSX?
I am referring to the Norristown line, not the Cynwyd line.
Are you sure it's on R6? I'm a bit up the hill from it but I can often hear the CSX trains on the West Side line very clearly. (If conditions are right I can also hear the R6 blowing for the Shawmont Ave and Parker Ave crossings.)
To the best of my knowledge there are no freights on R6 (no customers remaining below Spring Mill) except for those which use it between the old Trenton Cutoff and the access to the West Side line west of Norristown. The only other possibility is a SEPTA work train, as ballast hoppers and other equipment are often spotted on the siding at Wissahickon, but if they were going north of there the possibilities of linking up to the SEPTA system are limited (using the ex-CR Stony Creek branch to access Lansdale, but it would be just as easy to go inbound and hook up at 16th St Junction).
Oh, it's definitely the R6. ZRuns on the elevated line right above my bedroom window on Cresson Street. I look out my window too late to catch it.
The only thing this could be is a SEPTA work run, to the best of my knowledge, since there are no freights working below Spring Mill. I've got my spies working, so we'll see if we get a better answer.
Many thanks.
Click Here
Indeed. See the general site: http://www.railmerchants.net/passenger/
I noticed the disclaimer about passenger coaches: Non-Amtrak compliant.
If they're NYCT compliant... move over, Belmont.
Just imagine that business if he (they?)
carried the one true candy EVERYBODY wants!!?
are you referring to the redbirds? Not all of them are going underwater, so some are likely to be available. -Nick
Delivery available??
...at buyer's expense!!!!!
Notice how they touched up the photo to make the car look CLEAN and NOT rusty!!!
But note that the ad didn't say how much they'd pay people to take these rotting old LIRR coaches.
Someday I wish I could own one of those.
I've ridden thru Lex/125, but never once explored the station. I've looked at the track maps and see north and south-bound trains are join together there on separate levels. I'm wondering if there is a full mezzanine.
I'm also wondering just they have in mind when you hear about stubbing the 2Av at Lex/125. Unless you can run trains over the Lex, it has to be under it, and that makes for a clumsy transfer. Upstairs for two levels, then downstairs for three levels. Unless of course they can do it off the backs of the center platforms, but I think tracks are in the way.
Just what do they have in mind?
Just what do they have in mind?
Don't remember the source, but I think the plan is for a parallel alignment to the Lex line so that the end of 2nd Ave can connect to a future tunnel to the Bronx (either to take over the Dyre Avenue line or a new line to Co-Op City). No idea about transfer arrangements, though.
I've said this before. The best config. would be to have the 2d Ave line terminus run east-west under 125th, between Lex and Park. That would allow a direct connection with both the Lex line and the Metro-North 125th St. stop. If (and it's a big if) the 2d Ave is ever extended to the Bronx, a Bronx branch could be contunued straight north on 2d Ave., with the 125th St. terminus remaining as an alternate terminus. And my plan would allow for future extension along 125th crosstown -- a very needed connector line. Also, where would the proposed terminus parallel to Lex Ave fit anyway? Under existing buildings? There's no street room.
That depends on how deep the subway is supposed to be at that particular point. Rememeber that to get from 2nd Ave. to 125th and Lex the plans call for the line cutting across blocks.
I've wondered how they plan to set up the "paralell arrangment" in the context of the station that is there already. While the IRT local tracks are on the correct (east) side of the platform at both levels to permit an easy merge, if the Second Ave. line is routed up 125th towards Lex and then turned north again, there's no way the platform for the new line could begin any further south than midway between 125th and 126th streets. And since the platform would have to be 90 feet longer than the IRT platform to handle the 600 foot trains, the result would be a complex where the three or four platforms would be as out of alignment with each other as the IND platforms at 42nd St. and Eighth Avenue are.
Not that this is a total barrier to the idea, but since the MTA has these grand plans that people are going hustle off the IRT trains and onto the new Second Ave. line to releive crowding on the Lex, if the two platforms are nowhere near each other, I doubt people are going to opt to leave the 4 or 5 (or even the 6 if it still goes to the Bronx) and walk all the way to the north end of the platform and then upstairs and downstairs again to get on the new train, especially if only the stubway section down to 63rd St. is built.
That's why a perpendicular terminus along 125th form Park to Lex is better. It's easier to transfer from the Lex if the 2d Ave crosses under it . Also, you'd get direct transfers from Metro-North, and an easier, underground transfer from MN to the Lex.
I am still not very sure of what the arrangment would be. For making a transfer, it certainly seems to be clumsy, less than easy. Some people would use it, but all considered, it's not going to be too popular in the shrunken stub of a line they plan for it. It will be close to useless until it gets extended down past 34th St.
I do not see the 2nd Av line giving any serious relief to the Lex unless/until it is extended into the Bronx, taking over existing service and/or offering essentially cross-platform transfers.
In the back of the planners' mind, I think, is the idea to extend the 7th Av BMT north via 5th Ave to 125th, thence east to join the 2nd Av line and thence north into the Bronx, as 4 tracks. This would seriously relieve the Lex.
Of course, doing the extension from 7th Av first would offer more bang for the buck (fewer stations to build, a straightforward, easy r.o.w.), but the 2nd Av would then NEVER get built.
"I do not see the 2nd Av line giving any serious relief to the Lex unless/until it is extended into the Bronx, taking over existing service and/or offering essentially cross-platform transfers."
There are huge numbers of people waiting at every Lex southbound platform from 96th down to 68th in the morning rush hour. Many of these people live at Third ave and east and would be happy to use a Second Ave train instead.
Enough people to make the 2nd Ave trains full? Maybe not. But certainly enough to reduce the crowding on the 4/5/6.
Don't get me wrong, I want the 2ndAve too, but it's going to be a VERY expensive alternative to the 2nd Av bus for a long time.
I've made the observation before that the line makes sense only in its full and complete form. The truncated stub they will start with will not do to too much for the Lex. Any relief at all is a good thing, but it will still be over 100% of capacity.
Let's not forget the stubway can be (and is suppoosed to be) connected at 63rd to the BMT Braodway line, bringing trains all the way downtown, even perhaps to Bkln. A lot of Upper E. Siders will use this to get to Wall St.
That's the long and slow way to get to Wall St from the UES.
However, lots of upper east siders do work on 6th and 7th Aves in midtown. You can see them streaming out of the GCT station heading west or to the shuttle, and you can see them transferring to the N/R/W at 60th and Lex now.
Not enough of them to make a stubway an efficient use of the money, but enough to relieve crowding on the 4/5/6.
<>
Not any longer than the Lex, given the congestion, and assuming you use the Bway express tracks.
Gotta start from somewhere. And it is clear that the firstoperable segment will not be the one below 63rd Street.
In the back of the planners' mind, I think, is the idea to extend the 7th Av BMT north via 5th Ave to 125th, thence east to join the 2nd Av line and thence north into the Bronx, as 4 tracks. This would seriously relieve the Lex.
I've *never* seen this proposed ... and I wonder if a Fifth Avenue line would suffer from the same problems as the CPW lines: Only people on one side of it. Also, talk about NIMBY-ism ... !
It makes a certain amount of sense, but wouldn't it ultimately make the Stubway obsolete? Also you'd end up with THREE east side lines: Fifth, Lex, Second. I can imagine Westsiders screaming given the crowding on the 1/2/3.
Where'd you hear this one? (Not that I think it'll be built in our lifetimes ... even 60th to 125th would be a brutally expensive proposition.
As I keep saying, the 2nd Av makes sense only when fully completed, from Bronx to Lower Manhattan.
An extension from 7th Av via 5th gives more immediate service for less money (tho' parts of 2nd A are 'completed from 80s north, excepting for stations).
For a 5th Av line, only 2 stations are really needed, one in front of the Met Museum in the low 80s, and again at Mt. Sinai Hospital at 101st St. Politics would probably force another at 116th. Such a line really would get used, from the start, which is would not be true for the stubway until it links all the way downtown.
I agree that the full length subway should be built. But there's nothing wrong with arranging for a Stubway-service while the lower half gets built - and here's where we need to keep nagging legislators.
What's the point of extending BMT 7th Ave line to 125th? It will already be connected via 63rd to the 2d Ave line which goes to 125th.
What's the point of extending BMT 7th Ave line to 125th? It will already be connected via 63rd to the 2d Ave line which goes to 125th.
The point? Unused capacity. 63rd also goes to 6Av. You have service to Broadway, 6th Av and 2nd Av.
Since 6th is pretty well up to capacity (or will be when B and D return), I assume the 7th Ave Q will run up the upper 2d Ave line via 63rd. There's really no need for a 5th Ave extension, and it won't be built in our grandchildren's lifetime anyway.
The 63rd Street tunnel, like other tunnels, can take two major frequent services. The F is the first one. A Second Avenue Subway (let's call it the X train for now) can be another.
When the Second Avenue line is extended further south, things will get complicated. Second Av service could run three services: North-South 125(or Bronx) to Financial District; 125th via 63rd to Broadway BMT line; Financial District-Forest Hills (requiring another reshuffling of services along Queens Blvd unless we want to invest in another two tracks - the Super Express, anyone?)...
Of course, if we really open the $$$ spigots maybe the that bellmouth under 41 Av can take the train to the LIE and a brand new line (actually, a line the Board of Estimate approved back in 1968 but never funded...)
That line was moved over to Jewel ave from the L.I.E,before it wasd cancelled.it was moved and shortend to reduce the cost per mile.
Are we talking about the same line?
There would be no need in a 2nd Av. line from the Financial Distrct to Forest Hills; by the time the line gets built (if ever) the E and the R will serve that purpose. Along with the J/M/Z, if the Broadway El is improved/replaced.
So you're saying the E and the R already serve that purpose now - but they serve the west side.
Are you saying there would be no demand for direct service under 2nd Avenue from the East Side (which is what a Financial District-Forest Hills via 63rd would be)?
I agree with your point. A Queens Blvd train heading through 63rd St tunnel and down 2nd Ave into the JMZ would cut the trip from Forest Hills to the big buildings on Water St by 15 mins relative to taking the E, which is further west and further north.
Look at the track configuration. The IND connection (used now by the F) naturally leads to Queens. The BMT connection naturally leads to 2nd Avenue. I think we want to keep the switching there to a minimum.
The BMT connection naturally leads to 2nd Avenue. I think we want to keep the switching there to a minimum.
So, if the Bronx tunnel did get built and the Second Avenue line was connected to a Dyre Avenue branch converted to "B" division specs -- that would take the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit lines into ... the BRONX!
Oh my.
Why NOT?! They already go into Queens!! (J/M)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Why NOT?! They already go into Queens!! (J/M)
Yeah, true, but ... somehow that's different. Queens is adjacent to Brooklyn. It's on the same land mass. The Bronx is ... MAINLAND!
>>>>The Bronx is ... MAINLAND! <<<
THANK YOU! Very much.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>The Bronx is ... MAINLAND! <<<
THANK YOU! Very much.
But it's not the Main Land :-)
It isn't even the semi-mainland. What it is is...........Well it depends what your meaning of is is.
My meaning that the Bronx is on the mainland is concrete. The Bronx IS on the mainland, no ifs, ands, or buts. Nobody is going to try and fool me on this.
#3 West End Jeff
Ummm ... Da Bronx is connected to the same land mass as California. Manhattan is an Island, Staten Island ... well ... and of course Krooklyn and Queens is part of Long ... ummm ... Island ... so yes, Da Bronx is part of America while the rest of the boroughs are ... well ... offshore. :)
We are coastal people. Bronxites don't know the beach from a bitch. And when Bob and I did New York for one day last summer we noticed right off that Brooklyn was tempered by some nice breezes, while the Bronx smelled and sweltered in the oppressive August heat. I'll bet you really miss that, don't you?
Heh. One of the many reasons I moved upstate. :)
But yeah, while you guys get that medical waste whiff off the Atlantic, those of us in the Bronx have the "Rivera" ... Orchard Beach, and we're STILL part of the mainland and wave our Ker-nickers in your general direction. Heh. Moo.
The Bronx may not be as good as it once was, but good people still reside there.
I wish I could have seen the Bronx in it's hey day. There's a lot of history there....
-Stef
Still is, bro ... and long dead parts of it are slowly waking up again teeming with fresh life. It ain't dead yet. :)
You have it straight Stef. Yes, the Bronx does have a lot of history and most of it good. And Bob and I saw for myself that the people were very friendly when we stopped and talked to them. I am truly sorry that the borough has undergone some tough times. My wife thinks my feelings towards the Bronx stem from my lifelong dislike of the Yankees. What you guys need is to get a bunch of young yuppies to move in and revive the place and get some new businesses in as well. Have a great day.
Whoa! Wanna educate me? I don't know what a beach is..... Lol.
-Stef
I'll tell you what Stef. You tell me about Orchard Beach and I will give you my lowdown on Coney Island and Rockaway. Pardon my ignorance but until I got on Subtalk I never had a clue about the Bronx having a beach. I never even heard of the place when I lived in New York, so you will have to educate me. Is is an upscale area, how's the tide and how close is it to the subway. ( gotta stay on topic or your friend Andee will get his thought police blotter out and start admonishing me). BTW, what are of the Bronx do you live in and are you a Yankee fan?
I'm a Yankee Fan and I live in one of the poorer areas. Never fear though, it's undergoing revitalization.
-Stef
Tell you what I'll do. E-Mail me and when I get back to New York I'll buy you lunch----in the Bronx, of course.
Fred: Just a small correction. We capitalize the article in "The Bronx."
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
But we say it "DA Bronx" (like Chicago natives with "da BEARSsssss") ... moo. :)
What was the original meaning of "The Bronx?" What does it mean, Bronx? What is the Bronx?
The Bronx was orginnally called Brounx cause a family called the Brounx owned most of the land. The Bronx was mostly farm land. Many people who know the family Brounx said "Lets go see the Brounx" and when the Bronx came part of the City of New York the letter u was dropped and to this day as they say the rest is history.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd Bronx NY.
Close; in the 17th century, a Jonas Bronck owned a tobacco plantation along a river that was given his name; the county was later named for the river.
You are absolutely correct. It's named after the Bronx River, which is named for Jonas Bronck.
The Bronck's farm was developed into an early summer resort. People applied the name of what was once a part of what we now call the Bronx to describe the whole of it.
Something similar has happened with 'Sunset Park' in Brooklyn. Originally, this only described the actual park. It is now used to describe the neighborhood around it, including parts rather distant from it -- all the way down to the Sea Beach cut.
The borough came before the county (1898 vs. 1914).
Chud: Thank you young sir. I never knew that and it is nice to pick up info you didn't know before. Now where is Bedford Park?
Break out a map of da city, look for where Mosholu Parkway hits Jerome Avenue and just to the west of there is the magic "hood" served by the D train and the #4 on a subway map ... Dudeland! :)
#4 Sea Beach Fred, your welcome. Sorry so late answering you back, i just got in to work in Mid-twon Manhattan.
Bedford Park Blvd is in the North West section of the Bronx, It is home to Lehman College, Bronx High School of Science and De Witt Clinton High School. Also it is the home of the #4 train and the D train Yards on Jerome Ave and the NY Botincal Garden on Southern Blvd. Also it is home to the Grand Concourse which runs the whole length of the Bronx. You can also take the #4 or the D train northbound to Bedford Park Blvd.
Hope this answer is helpful to you as you visit the Big Bronx, Home to the NY Yankees 26 time MLB Champions.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
Looks like Chud beat me and pigs to it ... and he's CORRECT ... DA Bronx was once a number of farms, West Farms being one of the larger ones and it got its name from the plural of the farm families in the area ... I guess being born and raised there was the reason why I headed upstate. Moo. :)
West Farms was also named because it was WEST of the river. It broke free of the Town of Westchester in 1846, becoming part of the City of New York in 1874. Westchester was taken over in 1895, thus giving Westchester County the dubious distinction of having its namesake in a different county (like Bergen County, NJ).
Fred: The Bronx is named for Jonas Bronck a Dutch citizen of Scandanavian orgin. He purchased 500 acres from the Dutch West India Company on what is today the southern shoreline of The Bronx. He also purchased additional land from the Indian sachems Ranaque and Tacamac.
When people would go to vist him they would say "lets vist the Bronckes.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Orchard Beach, is in the Pelham Bay Park/City Island Area. I consider City Island to be upscale, so it would be to your liking. City Island is quite wonderful. The Beach is pretty decent.
-Stef
Thanks Stef. I take it then that is might be on Long Island sound. Is it near any of the subways? I saw "A Bronx Tale" and DeNiro drove a bus there from his Italian neighborhood where he lived in the movie. I will try to visit there if I get back in the summer.
Correct. It's on the L.I. Sound.
-Stef
When I was very little at about four years old, my mother told me that we live on an island in Brooklyn but The Bronx is not an island. I asked her why we don't move to The Bronx? Because a big wave may come, overtake the island (Brooklyn) and wash us away.
Kids say the darndest things!
When I was a kid that used to happen all the time-----in a matter of speaking. The wave was the Yankees and they seemed to always come around in October and spoil it for our Dodgers. It really pissed me off and I developed an antaganism for the Bronx boys that lasts to this days. Old feeling do die hard.
Kind of like my dislike for USC, being a diehard Notre Dame subway alumnus.
Fred: If you want to reach "The Bronx Rivera" take the #6 Lex-Pelham Line to Pelham Bay Park and transfer to a MABSTOA Bx 12 bus. Orchard Beach has its own bus terminal and for many years riding either Surface Transit and later MABSTOA you had to purchase an "Orchard Beach Token" to board the buses at the beach. Orchard Beach is in Pelham Bay Park which is the largest park in the NYC Park System. You might wish to vist the "Bartow-Pell Mansion" while you are there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Which is bigger: Van Cortlandt Park or Pelham Bay Park? Both in The Bronx.
Pelham Bay Park is larger by far.
Peace,
ANDEE
Larry: Once again you come through like a chance. What I told Stef, I tell you. When I get to New York, lunch is on me. I hope this time we do touch base. I will keep your post for future reference.
Fred: Maybe you can clarify this one for me. Its true that the Yanks and the Dodgers met several times in the World Series, but for many years by far the Dodgers' nemesis was the Giants,not the Yankees.
This was the most often run subway series when those two National League teams would play each other. Its strange that the rivalry that is always talked about is with the Yanks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Quite true. You have Bill Terry's famous 1934 question, "Is Brooklyn still in the league?" It came back to haunt him, as the Dodgers, managed by Casey Stengel, knocked the Giants out of pennant contention late that season. It took Stengel more than four hours to get back to his hotel, as he was swept away from the Polo Grounds by jubilant Dodger fans onto the subway. The train made a round trip and reached Jay St. before Stengel could finally escape.
Charlie Dressen provided a parallel incident in 1953, IIRC, when he proclaimed, "The Giants is dead."
Dressen said the same thing in 1951 and it came back to haunt him when Bobby Thomson hit that historic homerun. In '53, he was right, and the Dodgers had a field day with the Giants that summer winning their last ten games against them and finishing 15-7 for the year. In '51, they were 14-11 against the Giants.
Dressen may be the only manager ever to win two consecutive pennants (and almost a third) and be fired - all because he wanted a 3-year contract. The Dodgers had a strict policy of signing managers to one-year contracts back then because they had been paying too many people not to manage. Walt Alston wound up signing 23 consecutive one-year contracts.
It would have been interesting to see how the Giants would have done in '53 with Willie Mays in the lineup. He spent that entire season in military service.
Yes, you are right Redbird. The Yankee-Dodger rivalry was for supremacy of the baseball world. It pitted the lordly Yankees against the Brooklyn Bums, as they were also known affectionally. The disliking of the Yankees came during World Series time when they would prove unbeatable. We Dodger fans hardly paid any attention to them during the regular season because they were in different leagues and their league was broing as hell because they dominated it.
I can only describe the Giants and the Dodgers as unmitigated hatred. It was the most rabid rivalry in the history of sports, and when they played anything went and usually did. There were fights inside and outside of the stadium when they played. And friends became temporary enemies when we would duke it out over our teams. These things did happen. It is hard to understand what the Brooklyn Dodger and New York Giant rivalry was, but, believe me, everything I've just told you is true.
A Dodger fan once actually shot a Giants fan during an argument.
Also the Bx5, all of them run to Orchard Beach, only some Bx12s go there (the others go to Bay Plaza in Co-op City).
The Bronx isn't always a pleasant place to be during the summer. If you go to Throgg's Neck however, it is very pleasant when the breeze comes off the Long Island Sound. Coney Island is the best or the Rockaways on an unpleasantly hot day.
#3 West End Jeff
I have never been to Throgg's neck Jeff. Isn't that strange? I will have to take a bigger tour of the Bronx since I really know less about that place than the other main boriughs.
Fred: If you would like to vist Throgs Neck take the IRT #6 Lex-Pelham Line to Westchester Square-East Tremont Avenue Station and transfer to the MaBSTOA bus Bx-40 or Bx-42 Tremont Avenue Routes. You can vist the New York State Maritime Academy and see their training ship "Empire State VI." You can also wander over to Edgewater Park where the residents own their own homes but rent the land that they are on from the city. Its something called "ground rentals." Edgewater Park has one of the two volunteer fire departments in The Bronx. The other one is on City Island and has the fireboat "Seacat."
Larry,RedbirdR33
You can also take the Bx 40 or Bx 42 to Barkley Ave, the stop after Bruckner Blvd. What's there? The Bronx's only ORIGINAL 7-Eleven store! There is one other 7-Eleven in The Bronx, right by the Middletown Road stop of the #6 Train. That store, however, is a converted Store 24.
Hey Larry, you will have to be my guide in the Bronx. You really know the place. Thanks for the info. I will look forward to traversing those areas.
Fred: I look forward to seeing the BMT and the Sea Beach with you when you come to New York.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred, you'd be very surprised that there are parts of the Bronx that are very pleasant and suburban with nary a burnt-out tenement in sight. Thing is, they're mostly far removed from subways and highways, although you see hints from the Pelham and Dyre lines, and while driving on the Henry Hudson and upper Bruckner.
Throgs Neck, along with adjoining Country Club, Edgewater Park, Spencer Estates and Pelham Bay, is mostly two-family and small one-family houses with occasional mid-rise apartment buildings. Morris Park and Pelham Gardens, which are divided by Pelham Parkway east of White Plains, are very similar. Tree-lined streets make the areas look very similar to eastern Queens, southeast Brooklyn and Staten Island. Several streets dead-end on the waterfront, which offers some nice views of Queens and Great Neck(!).
Riverdale (whose residents deny they even live in the Bronx by using the community name in their addresses a la Queens) has some extremely wealthy neighborhoods with huge mansions on winding, hilly streets. There are also mid-rises, high-rises and one-families in abundance. The riverfront is lined with some heavily wooded and tranquil parkland, which makes it easy to hear Amtrak and MN trains approaching from far away.
All of these areas can be explored with an unlimited Metrocard, a Bronx bus map and, above all, a detailed street map. You can get seriously lost- but you'll never feel threatened.
Howard: Thanks for the info. As I said in an earlier post I plan on taking two or three days when I get to New York to completely explore this borough.
Fred, you'd be very surprised that there are parts of the Bronx that are very pleasant and suburban [...]
Isn't that an oxymoron?
[Riverdale (whose residents deny they even live in the Bronx by using the community name in their addresses a la Queens) has some extremely wealthy neighborhoods with huge mansions on winding, hilly streets. There are also mid-rises, high-rises and one-families in abundance. The riverfront is lined with some heavily wooded and tranquil parkland, which makes it easy to hear Amtrak and MN trains approaching from far away.]
You should have been in Riverdale back in March 1989.... A major bus service restructuring took effect: the Bx7 went down to 168th Street; a new Bx20 shuttle started running to 207th Street; and they no longer had the M100!! By-and-large, Riverdale-ites resented that very rude reminder that they weren't part of Manhattan.
I have never been to Throgg's neck Jeff. Isn't that strange? I will have to take a bigger tour of the Bronx since I really know less about that place than the other main borughs. I hope I don't get lynched.
I don't think that you have to worry about getting lynched in Throgg's Neck since it is almost all white. Throgg's Neck is one of the most interesting communities in the Bronx.
#3 West End Jeff
Was it not "White People" who were known for carrying out a lynching?
I believe that you're correct in that statement.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff: Since most of the subtalkers are white, it is exactly those who live in the Bronx that I am worried about. I said it tongue-in-cheek, but if you remember correctly some Bronxites took umbridge at my remarks about the Bronx some time back. It got his from all angles by a half-dozen people. I will have to be on my best behavior.
If you behave yourself you have nothing to worry about. Enjoy.
-Stef
Geez ... you're gonna get the boy killed ... only the CRAZIEST sum'bitch on the car gets the seat. :)
He's quite safe rest assured, but I have eyes watching him and ears will be listening for his footsteps.....
And I'm quite crazy.
-Stef
Heh. Once I learned you was a Bronx boy, I wasn't worried in da least. Nothing like having Brooklyn meat on our streets though. Heh.
Hmmmmmm. Fresh meat!!!! I love it. He'll need mass transit to get around (on topic). He'll need the 6 Train if he goes to City Island.
-Stef
Maybe we can allocate the "money train" armored redbird to ferry the boy around ... put him on exhibit at the reptile house, then off to Hub 149 ... hell, I'll come down for THIS event. Heh.
Lol!!!!!!
-Stef
Yeah ... we'll sign that puppy up as an "N" ... he'll never know the difference. Yeah, that's the ticket!
I'll have to change all that station signage.... Uh oh, he's here....
-Stef
I just wonder what it would be like if you guys were my enemies.
If we can make alliances with Afghanistan Bananastan, I'm sure we can work it out with Brooklyn. How much ya got in that wallet? :)
You'd be in trouble, but really I'm more interested in railfanning Redbirds and R-142s.
-Stef
Did you hear your pal Selkirk? He was actually blackmailing me into giving him a bribe so as not to ruin my trip. What's he gonna' do, inform the populace that I'm in the neighborhood when I hit town. I'll tell you this, I'm coming with plenty of backup.
After that statement I believe I could be in real trouble. Keep that maniac away from me Stef.
I promise to protect you.
-Stef
Feh ... we'll meet at Fordham in leathers ... I've got SeVeN and the concourse writers ... we'll give Unca Fred a tour of Sedgewick and Andersen, the abandoned Polo Grounds shuffle station ... boy don't know what he's getting hisself into. :)
Just tell me this Selkirk ole' buddy, can I turn my back on you or do I take my life in my own hands if I do. Remember Stef has promised to protect me from the aliens I run into, but I have no clue about your behavior. That's why when I get there, I'm bringing Bob, Jeff, Steve, Doug, and maybe even Thurston. Can't have enough protection with a nut like you around. Don't hibernate over the winter.
Hahaha ... Nah, you're safe ... just step away from the foamer glass and we be cool. As to your backups though, I'd run a background check. I can identify three that'll side with me and if you DARE 'dis Branford, we'll ALL turn on ya. Heh.
I agree with you that #4 Sea Beach Fred is safe in the Bronx.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Jeff, read their other posts. I'm not so sure I'm safe there unless I take some backup.
You're safe in Throgg's Neck since it is all white. The Bronx is much better than it used to be.
#3 West End Jeff
Is there an implication here that if you're NOT white, it ain't safe? Just a matter of being on your toes at all times. I'd beware of the white folks myself. :)
Good point. Even in the safest place, all hell can break loose.
-Stef
Had a wonderful ride on the Franklin shuttle ... got a dose of the willies at Stillwell standing near the Dubya ... go figger. :)
You're probably right making that statement but, the Bronx is safer than it used to be.
#3 West End Jeff
Agreed! Thank God for the NYPD.
-Stef
Yes, but wherever Selkirk plants his bloody hands things get unsafe very quickly. I am not turning my back on that guy, friend or no friend. He's really given me the woolies.
Who him? He's harmless.
-Stef
WOOLIES? You'd BETTER bring yer woolies, buddy ... gets cold up on the mainland this time of year. You'll freeze your SeaBits off on Bronx els. Bustini bustini ...
[He's really given me the woolies.]
Fred, isn't that supposed to be the 'willies'. The woolies is something you get when you hang around too many sheep.....;-D
BMTman
Once again Doug, you are right and I stand corrected. Do you know that Selkirk personally? I have never met him, but we've become buddies on Subtalk but, man, that guy is strange, real strange. I wonder what makes the guy tick but I have to admit I like his sense of humor even if it's a little perverted. BTW, how did that railfan trip go this past Monday?
I don't know Selkirk personally, but I have had a chance to meet Rochester and Buffalo and we're since become good friends. I do know a Kev though who seems to be wrapped as tightly as I am...;-D
Selkirk is only as strange as the rest of us (although some of us are stranger than others).
Hey, BTW, perverted humor is sometimes the best humor....;-D
STRAGE
I was on part of it and so I rode the IRT leg of it on the #5 from Grand Central to Dyre Ave. on a train of "Redbirds". Then we took a train of "Redbirds" on the #5 back to E.180th and then changed to a #2 which happened to have been a train of R-142s. The automatic announcements weren't working properly on this train sometimes. Other than that the R-142s are nice cars overall.
#3 West End Jeff
[I'd beware of the white folks myself. :) ]
Particularly if they're foamers and post at SubTalk....LOL!!!
Hey!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Selkirk was just to dumb to understand it, so he made a big joke about it. I got to hand it to him, though, he is dumb like a fox.
That was the basis of the cautionary ... heh. SeaBits Fred in DA Bronx? 'nuff said. :)
There has been a reference to race in this topic and I don't know how the hell it got there. I started the post and my point was that a lot of Bronxites were once after my ass and if might be tough sledding if I showed my face there without backup. It was all said tongue in cheek and then someone, I don't know who, says there are a lot of good white areas that are safe. Who the hell cares about that? I never said I never felt safe there or anywhere, in fact, I have had good experiences with all the people I've run into in New York. Again, let me state t hat the only worry I have is that a few of the Bronx boys who still are ticked off for what I said a year ago might give me a cold reception when I get there. Nothing, and I mean nothing has to do with race, color, religion, or any of that nonsense.
What's always been particularly amusing about the Bronx is that it got over its racism in the early 60's when all of us who lived there realized we were all on the same leaky boat. So among us that grew up there, race is meaningless ... it's getting them Brooklyn boys that's EVERYTHING. Heh.
Yeah I aw the comment and I'm sure he didn't mean it the way it came out in print ... but the Bronx was a unique social experiment once the "greaser" days had gotten all and done with. Everyone saw more than enough stupidity during those years and became too well to play anymore. That's one of the things about the Bronx that I really liked. Only wish that they'd taught the mental defectives how to aim when they shot off a rooftop - if I'd had more confidence in people's ability to hit what they aim at, I'd probably STILL be living there. :)
LOL!!!
I resemble that remark.:-)
Not to worry, buddy ... Bronx kids always take good care of their guests ... the borough's whole purpose is to hoard R142's and keep the mainland free of Manhattanites. D train runs on its schedule and route for good reasons into the heavily armed nation of Norwood. :)
The Bronx loves my R142s....and they now leave their scratchitti on the fibreglas seating. Car desk had me on free time the other day....to buff out the heiroglyphs. One seat: $ 1050. CI Peter
Yow ... for $1050, we could ride on barcoloungers ...
But only 99 cents worth of nail polish would have fixed a problem before Ivan Ivanovich sanded and buffed the site down to the base. CI Peter
Geez ... you've been with the TA too long already ... I didn't start wearing nail polish until after a month as a motorman. Made it all the way through being a conductor without once wearing lipstick. I tell ya, the TA's gone straight to hell if the crossdressing's begun so early in your career. Snycker ...
Well I don't even work for the TA and I wear nail polish sometimes ;)
Some cheap nail polish could have filled in the scratchitti for a buck...I don't know the end of the problem. 'Colour through' polycarbonate would have been much better than hand layered fibreglas but what can you expect for a cheap 1.4 Million Dollars. CI Peter
Then some wag would come along with some nail polish remover...
CHEAP!!!! 1.4 Million?! How much would you rather spend on a heavy-rail/subway car????? (just out of curiosity)
Stuart, RLine86Man
You have misread my thoughts.....that kind of money is far too much for just one 'A' car. One thousand bucks for just one hand-layered fibreglas seat unit is......... OK, I like my new job! I cannot understand this mess...how much would a molded color through polycarbonate seat unit cost??? So let the mutants sit on their sratchittied seating....spend the money on me instead. The TA got a 'Pandoras Boxfull' of wonders for Primo Bucks that will keep a lot of people employed for at least a decade. 600 Gs would have gotten one independent car that would replace one Redbird.
You'd be a natural then. Heh. Only precaution is NEVER wear a nose ring on TA property ... TSS' WILL use it. :)
Ouch! No, I'm scared of piercings. It's one of my phobias. Can't do injections either. But I love make up &c... I think it comes naturally with the showmanship and the luvvieness!
Heh. Not to worry, too old to have holes in my body. In fact I decided to move upstate after collecting a hole from a moron on a rooftop who couldn't aim for the proper target. :)
ROTFLMAO
I'm not Jewish anymore but here's a phrase that I STILL use: OY VAY?!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm going to FREEDOM LAND!!!!!!!!!!!
FREEDOMLAND! One of my FAVORITES!
For everyone not around long enough to have even heard of it, spend a little while here for your own amusement:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robfriedman/
Most of Freedomland ended up elsewhere ...
I'm Catholic and use OI VAY anyway!:-)
So do I :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yeah...umm....like a garrison of heavily armed Navy SEALS :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
P.S.: No way those SEALS last 10 minutes in Yankee territory :-D
They're on exhibit at the Bronx Zoo ... :)
As what????? Spare ribs for the lions??? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Nah, the lions get REAL meat ... ex Enron managers and leftovers from layups at Jerome yard. :)
But I'd bet that the Enron managers that the lions are feeding on are full of sh-t remains and taste WAY too salty, since they were bloodsuckers :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm sure now that the FBI has Enron surrounded (gee, same mistake as Afghanistan, waiting until they'd already scattered to seal off the exits) I'm sure there'll be plenty of bureaucrats for dinner once the Blackwater investigations get underway. Lemme see now ... how do we make this train relevant ... maybe they'll be RAILROADED ...
*lmao* Good one, man, very good one :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Fred: I can't understand why you are worried about visting The Bronx?
Considering that you live on the wrong side of the San Andreas Fault you court danger everyday. Vist The Bronx and we will treat you as good as the Yanks treated the Dodgers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's what I'm afraid of. I said an uncomplimentary think about the South Bronx some time back and boy did I get it from all quarter. I think a little of that residue still sticks to me.
Ya know ... they DO make "angel soft" tissue to wipe that off with. :)
I think that you'll be reasonably safe in the Bronx. Is isn't as crime ridden as it used to be. There will always be a few spots where you'll have to be careful.
#3 West End Jeff
Don't you think this statement smacks of racism at the worst and ignorance at the very least?
Coney Island is the best or the Rockaways on an unpleasantly hot day.
No, an air conditioned room -- or (ObSubTalk) subway car -- is the best on an unpleasantly hot day. I've never understood why so many people flock to an outdoor area with no shade on hot days.
My last time at the Rockaways, it was a beautiful April day. The beach was more crowded than usual: one family was out, enjoying the weather.
No, an air conditioned room -- or (ObSubTalk) subway car -- is the best on an unpleasantly hot day.
You can't go wrong with an R-32!
The old drop sash storm door windows on the R-21/22s weren't a bad option on a hot July day. Of course the trains never got close to the beach, but it did provide a pretty good breeze coming home from a Yanks game at the front of a No. 4 train.
well ... and of course Krooklyn and Queens is part of Long ... ummm ... Island .
I love when people in Brooklyn or Queens say, "I'm going TO Long Island......" DUH, you are already ON Long Island.......
Hahahahahahahaha! Bravo! :)
Don't feel bad though ... I live up near Smallbany (where legislators frollick and we all slave on da Paturkey farm - after all, boy's name is GEORGE ... *ELMER* ... PATAKI ... 'nuff said, "boy puts the 'goober' back in Gubernatorial" ... folks in da chitty think anything north of Tuckahoe Avenue in YANKERS is frigging CANADA ... and yet, they don't get the sensation of being surrounded by (Sam Kinnison here) ... ***WATER***!!! ... moo. :)
Selkirk: Do not tell me you want to return to the days of Mario Mr Taxes Cuomo. I hear his son is running but you can't be serious about being a Cuomo fan. I tingle with shame that he is an Italian-American. I wish I could palm him off on the Irish, or the Poles, or the Jews, or the Puerto Ricans---anybody.
How did Padre Cuomo and his idiot son get into this? :)
Just because we think our Governor Goober is a joke doesn't mean that we've gone liber-rail ... and as far as our republican and taxes, well ... 39 cents more for butts and beer, wine and sangria are going up as well along with a whole bunch more "hidden taxes" ... republican senate, democratic assembly ... do as we SAY, not as we do I s'pose.
Hey Selkirk: Do you know that I got an E-Mail from someone in reaction to my last post following the one you sent. He called me an ethnic-bigot since I said I was ashamed of Cuomo being a Dago like me. What the hell was that guy smoking? Doesn't he know that I'm one of the Italian stallions? Hey bro, we got some strange people around here, and they make even us look normal.
Heh. Well, I *worked* for the Padre so I can throw all the bricks I want. Paturkey fired me and killed two agencies on me, so they can BOTH go to hell. :)
And DO find out what your buddy there's smoking and pass it over this way. Only drug tests on MY railroad involve determining if you've had enough. Heh. Just kidding ...
I *was* hoping that we'd have Carl McCall - I've worked with him over the years and being an economist like Bloomberg, he'd be JUST what this state needs. Of course, between Paturkey and the Queens democratic club (Judy Hope, Mark Green) pushing Padre junior, we're screwed either way ... I guess I should keep the politics off here though ... dammit Fred ... why do we always take the damned yellow/yellow for food, politics and baseball? :)
Threaten to write in Guiliani's name for governor. Just the threat will put the fear of Gawd into Pataki.
No, Brooklyn and Queens are part of ROYAL Island.
Or even Kings and Queens...
Perhaps you are unaware, but the borough of Brooklyn happens to be coterminous with Kings County (and the borough of Queens happens to be coterminous with Queens County) -- hence Pig's name for the collective entity.
Yeah, tell like it is, Pigs of Royal Island.
People who have lived in Brooklyn or Queens all their lives deny they live on Long Island: "Oh, no, Long Island is Nassau and Suffolk!" Problem is, there's GEOGRAPHIC Long Island, which entails the two counties in New York City and the two suburban counties. Then there's the 'psychological' Long Island, which is Nassau and Suffolk only.
I once saw a T-shirt labeled "Long Island" that showed a detailed map of Nassau and Suffolk ONLY. The Queens-Nassau line was neatly delineated on the left. All I could think was how misled the makers of the shirt were- or how they only considered the 'psychological' Island made famous by Jones Beach, the Hamptons, the LIRR, the Islanders, strip malls, horrendous traffic jams, sky-high property taxes, the Barones, Amy Fisher, Joel Rifkin, Al D'Amato, et al.
Some people don't think Atlantic City is in New Jersey, either. No oil refineries-
Part of Manhattan is on the mainland. It even has a subway stop.
Heh. "reclaimed annexed mainland" is kinda cheating, but I'll give it to ya. For anyone who doesn't know the loophole, it's Marble Hill ...
The Bronx/Marble Hill border is an old creek. 'Manhattan Island' was separated from what became the Bronx by marshy tidelands. Then they came along and dredged a canal, one that got the name 'Harlem River'.
Governer's Island, while always a part of NY County, was once attached to Brooklyn at low tide, but then they dredged Buttermilk Channel.
Yep................Gov's Island is now "owned" by the USCG for their barracks and NY Regional H.Q............and is passed on BOTH sides by ferry boats-------------heading north to Whitehall Teminal: on the left (starboard if on the boat) by the STATEN ISLAND ferry, and on the right (port if on the boat) by the newly (as of 9/17) established BROOKLYN ferry [which I take everyday now]
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yep................Gov's Island is now "owned" by the USCG for their barracks and NY Regional H.Q............and is passed on BOTH sides by ferry boats-------------heading north to Whitehall Teminal: on the left (starboard if on the boat) by the STATEN ISLAND ferry, and on the right (port if on the boat) by the newly (as of 9/17) established BROOKLYN ferry [which I take everyday now]
The Coast Guard still controls Governor's Island but scarcely uses it for anything. Most or all of the facilities once located there were relocated to Atlantic City several years ago. I believe the high cost of operating ferries was the main reason for the move. There probably aren't any USCG personnel on the island any more except for some maintenance and security people.
Or the USCG post out in Jamaica Bay (I'm not sure if that's on the Bennett Field side or on the Breezy Point part) ...........if that's still there, too.............
Stuart, RLine86Man
These obsolete government reservations create serious temptations. I bet Junior Trump would love to take it off the Coast Guard's hands. You also wonder what will eventually happen to Fort Hamilton.
I forget what happened to Fort Totten. Fort Wadsworth became a toll plaza.
Queens was, of course, a natural extension of BMT service, as shown with the Jamaica and Fulton Els. And of course the BMT also squatted on the IRT's Astoria and Flushing lines, which were Queens lines from inception.
That said, it's a shame that there was no company or division that made Queens their first priority. The Queens IRTs came long after the Bronx-favoring mailines, and had only incidental track connections to them which are now long severed. And as with the Brooklyn IRT the Queens IRT essentially consisted of only one branching line. The BMTs at best only extended to Queens after a long journey through Brooklyn, and on the Myrtle and Fulton lines died very shortly after entering Queens. Even the IND only built one line in the "First System" for expressly for Queens, though clearly the "Second System" had a lot more in store 'ere being nipped in the bud.
:-) Andrew
If the IND had gotten it's second system, Queens would have had some amaizing and full service!
They really did screw Queens didn't they. Imagine selling us native Queensians that short. Let them realize we are the largest borough, have the most diversity, and we have the future Baseball World Champion Mets in our borough. "Our" is somewhat a play on words since I no longer live in New York, but Queens rules, and certainly not the Bronx.
I love Queens. I grew up here, and have lived here for most of my life. I have lived in Ridgewood, Astoria, and now, Forest Hills. I will keep moving eastward, until Queens becomes uninhabitable by decent citizens like myself. That's when I'll finally give up, and move out like so many have. Sometimes it saddens me to live just blocks from the south end of Flushing Meadows park, seeing it everyday, and knowing how great it once was. Any other city would've maintained it, and benefitted from its'presense. Now it's just a weed covered soccer field, with broken glass all over the place.
Don't worry, Helen Marshall will take care it.
N Bwy
Until the 59th St. Bridge was built, Queens was **rural**. Brooklyn and the Bronx, by comparison, were considerably more developed.
They just stopped building subways when Queens caught up.
As for the statement "we are the largest borough, have the most diversity", Brooklyn is more populous, and is just as diverse. And if the Mets or Yankees are to get a new stadium, I think they'd do better to put one or the other over the Coney Island yards.
Mark: You are beautiful. That's it. Put one of the teams in Brooklyn. That would be all time, Brooklyn back in the big leagues. But it would have to be the Mets. I could not imagine in my wildest dreams the Yankees playing there. I would even concede Queens losing the team if Brooklyn got it. You caught my imagination. Good job.
I would like the Yankees in New Jersey. Why? Because I don"t like the Yanks, not one bit.
You don't like the Yankees eh? Then why tell me? You like preaching to the choir? You have no idea what disliking the Yankees is unless you get to hear some of my diatribes. If your wife is present, you would have to send her out of the room. But Peppertree, you have just gained an ally.
I was not old enough in 1962 to like baseball but ever since I was old enough (1968) I have been a die hard Mets fan.
The second game I went to at Shea, Jerry Koosman hit a homer into the leftfield bullpen.
Can you answer my Sea Beach question previously posted?
Which question was that? Fire away and I'll see if I can answer it.
Koosman was known as anything but a good hitting pitcher in his early years. He set an all-time record for striking out as a pitcher in 1968 when he whiffed 62 times. Maury Allen said Koosman swung like a girl, and I wouldn't argue. IIRC Al Weis also homered in that game, off Cecil Upshaw of the Braves. Gil Hodges ordered champagne for his sluggers after that game. Weis came close to hitting a second home run in that game, batting lefthanded. He hit the one homer batting righthanded (Weis was a switch hitter through 1968, then hit only righthanded after that).
Koosman eventually became a pretty good hitting pitcher. Tom Seaver OTOH was a good hitter right from the start; he wound up hitting 13 home runs during his career, 3 in 1972 alone.
The first game I ever went to was a day game, I think Saturday, and Juan Marichal pitched for the Giants (those former New Yorkers.) I think that the Giants won. That was probably May, 1968 or whenever the Giants were in town.
I come from a family of old Brooklyn Dodger fans originally from Park Slope but by then Sheepsaid Bay.
Giants were in town Memorial Day weekend of 1968 -- my friend's dad had an extra ticket that day and ended up being busted by the cops for scalping, which made that trip a little more memorable than your average visit to Shea. They had to have come in again sometime later in the season, but since I didn't have to find my own way to my seat for that series, I can't help you with the dates there :-)
The Giants were also in town for the 1968 home opener. Jerry Koosman started and the next thing he knew, the bases were loaded with nobody out, and Willie Mays was up. Koosman struck out Mays and got the next two batters out as well, and won, 3-0.
I started following the Mets in 1968 and really got into them in 1969. I remember wanting to go to Helmet Day in '68 (they apparently had a second Helmet Day that year), but my mother had to have surgery and my father had more pressing concerns (understandable). I did go to Helmet Day in 1971. Still have the helmet, too.
And we just traded for Jeromy Burnitz. He's good for about 30 homers and 100 RBI's. We know have the team to win the pennant and maybe the World Series. I'll tell you this. If it is a Yankee-Mets World Series this year, there is no way I'm going to see this on TV.
I don't want Queens to lose its team. The Mets are a part of Queens just as much as the Yankees are a part of The Bronx. I dare the Yanks to move to NJ! Watch them lose their entire fanbase!
:-) Andrew
Nonsense, Mr. K. The Yanks would not only not lose their fan base, the fanatics, like human flotsam, would follow them like the Pied Piper had the rats follow him. Look at the football Giants and Jets. They are NOT New York teams but the fans pretend they are and flock to seem them like salesmen flock to see whores at a class hotel when on a sales convention. No, the fans would still follow.
Though what the Yanks moving to New Jersey could do is spark a move among the New York delegation (already supported by many members of Congress elsewhere) to repeal baseball's antitrust exemption. Do that, and it would open up NYC to any of the struggling owners from one of the small market teams to jump in and relocated their franchise (and as the NFL found out with Al Davis, challenging a move without an antitrust rule in place can be very costly for the league and its other owners).
If Bud Selig and the other boys feared the exemption would be scuttled by a Yanks' move across the Hudson, they'd tie George to the support columns of the el on River Avenue to keep him in the Bronx...
That would be one time when I would back Selig. I may despise the Yankees, but the Yankees belong in New York---not New Jersey, Connecticut, or upstate.
Hey ... maybe Brooklyn can pick up the team from Enron! :)
Enron doesn't own the team, just the stadium name. A trucking company bigwig who lives to the northwest of Houston (he supplies Wal-Mart with a lot of their rolling stock) owns the Astros. But if anyone's got a spare $75 millior or so, there's a stadium on the south-center side of downtown Houston that's just waiting for your name to go up on the lighted signs (and to keep it rail related, left field is part of the old Houston SoPac station....)
The Yankees and New Jersey deserve each other. I think you can come up with the reasons why.
As to your question from a previous response, please refresh my memory. Does it have to do with express tracks rehabbed on the Sea Beach in Brooklyn?
They just stopped building subways when Queens caught up.
Stupid question time... why?
As Queens was building people were relying on cars more and more, and they thought at the time that cars were the way of the future and subways old fashioned. Queens would have had alot more subways if it had started developing at the same time as the Bronx and Brookyn. Now between NIMBYS and lack of funds it's almost impossible to get things built anymore.
Thank you, Mr. Robert Moses, once again.
I have seen pictures of sparseness and emptiness around the Flushing Line El in the 1920's. No one lived around it at first. But by the 1930's (ten years later) it looks similar to the way it looks now.
There were no organized lobbying for subways to Queens in the 1920"s as Queens was similar to the suburbs in many ways.
If you look at some of the els being built in the Bronx, they also were built through farmland. It's a shame it never cought on in Queens. We have been paying for it ever since.
Queens was similar to the suburbs in many ways.
The key word is "was". Queens is not like Nassau County at all now. With very few exceptions, even the most suburban Queens neighborhoods are denser and more "neighborhood-like" than most Long Island communities. I betcha most Eastern Queens folk (including those I've talked to) would welcome subway extensions.
:-) Andrew
I don't buy this. Most of the lines in Queens pre IND were built in what was basically farmland or sparsly populated homesteads. I have pictures of Liberty Ave as the el was being constructed in 1915. It was barren pasture. Ditto with the Flushing line east of Woodside. Jamaica Ave. as we know it didn't come into existance until AFTER the el was built. Queens, like the Bronx, experienced it's population after rapid transit was built, not before.
Then why didn't the companies run more els into Queens like they did in the Bronx and Brooklyn. The only els in Queens were the Flushing and Astoria. The Lefferts end, the end of the Jamaica, and the end of the Myrtle were basically short extentions of their Brooklyn els. Jamaica had more of a run in Queens than the others, but that is really the only one. Brooklyn and Bronx had almost a spider web of els. Why was Queens neglected then?
Maybe Queens was neglected because it was assumed back then that it would be a suburb, not part of the city. The LIRR had a big head start, with many local stations which, today, are not in use.
That is true the LIRR had extensive Queens routes in addition to the few remaining ones. The Lower Montauk Branch for one. I guess it was assumed that the subway was not needed because the LIRR did serve areas not served by subways. The lower montauk Branch would be a great line for subway conversion, along with the unused portion of the Rockaway line. Those areas of Queens have no rail service.
could it be that the money for expansion was no longer there?
The IRT was nearly bankrupt when they finished building their system by 1920. The BMT was just recovering from Malbone St. and a had a hostile mayor to deal with.
The pressures to 'save the fare' were intense back then too. The City kept both the IRT and BMT at barely break-even. The 5¢ fare was unrealistic. Had it been allowed to go up to 10¢ (perhaps $2.00 in present money), the two would have been robustly profitable, and expansion would have continued.
They might have, had the city not obstructed further growth. Getting an el built after 1920 was almost impossible.
>>> Most of the lines in Queens pre IND were built in what was basically farmland or sparsly populated homesteads. <<<
Although built through farmland, they were built to the populated areas of Flushing and Astoria. They were not just set down in the wilderness with the idea that if you build it they will come.
Tom
Also, remember that access to Queens was far more difficult before 1934, since the only non-ferry routes there were via the Queensboro Bridge and the BMT and IRT (Flushing and Second Ave.) lines and the LIRR. Before the Triborough, Queens Midtown Tunnel and the IND, virtually all the "on demand" entry to Queens centered around Bridge Plaza, while other locations relied on the unreliable East River ferry system.
In contrast, all three bridge connections between Brooklyn and Manhattan were already in place, which included 14 subway and elevated tracks between the two boroughs -- the same number as there are today if you take away the two under-construction Manny B tracks and the Brooklyn Bridge el tracks and substitute the Cranberry and Rutgers IND tunnels. That made access to Brooklyn far easier than access to Queens during the first 3 1/2 decades of the 20th Century.
True, but on the other hand, I've seen pictures of Lefferts Ave when it was brand new in 1916, and it looked like a station suspended in the middle of nowhere.
I don't buy this. Most of the lines in Queens pre IND were built in what was basically farmland or sparsly populated homesteads. I have pictures of Liberty Ave as the el was being constructed in 1915. It was barren pasture. Ditto with the Flushing line east of Woodside. Jamaica Ave. as we know it didn't come into existance until AFTER the el was built. Queens, like the Bronx, experienced it's population growth after rapid transit was built, not before.
In both Brooklyn and the Bronx, subway lines extend to the edge. With the exception of the Rockaway line reclaimed from the LIRR, the Queens subway lines do not do this.
There's only so far one would want to go through farmland, at some point you leave off an extension for later.
True. I'm sure if the BMT was able, they'd have extended down Liberty Ave, or down Roosevelt Ave.
Bronx is an easy extension for Manhattan because the Harlem River is narrow.
Brooklyn itself was already a formidable development, as it was close to Downtown Manhattan and thus a post for all travel from New York to points on Long Island. Brooklyn was an independent city that already had an elevated network at the time of consolidation in 1898, thus it had a headstart in development relative to Queens.
I should also point out that the IRT was very Manhattan and Bronx-centric. Their original line extended into poorly developed parts of Manhattan and Bronx, but it's Brooklyn extension - opened in 1908 - was a short branch that only served a few points downtown to the LIRR terminal. They didn't build a Queens line until 1915.
If it wasn't for the BMT, Brooklyn would be woefully underserved. There was no QMT because Queens was less developed in those years.
The IND on the other hand came out when Queens development was more of a priority. Queens had more open development space that the other three boroughs and more area was underserved. Unfortunately, the IND wasted money building replacements for perfectly good els. The only line it has that was a completely new line was the Queens Boulevard line. That alone makes the IND worthwile, but they would have been better off building some of the proposed Second System lines before such wasteful projects like the 6th Avenue or Fulton Street lines.
Queens has had more World Champs than Brooklyn but not more National League pennants.
Let's see: 2 World Series championships for the Mets and one for the Brooklyn Dodgers vs. 4 pennants for the Mets and 9 (by my count) for the Dodgers.
On the money Steve. You're a great baseball fan. Maybe they can put one of us in the Commissioner's office because lame brain Selig needs all the help he can get.
But the Dodgers (of Brooklyn) are finished counting. The Mets have time to catch up and I hope that they do.
If Brooklyn had a National League team, would you abandon the METS?
Nah, I've been a Mets fan for too long - 34 years and counting. Heck, I've been a Colorado resident for 21 years now and still root for New York teams. I was happy for the Broncos when they won back-to-back Super Bowls, but I rooted for the Giants in SB XXI. And while I do occasionally root for the Rockies, I will never, ever root against the Mets.
You better not ever root against the Mets because if you do you make an adversary of me and your ass is grass and I become the lawnmower.
You need not worry. I'm a Mets fan for life. Speaking of lawn mowers, I lost a couple of fingertips to one once.
Well, remember that Queens was later to develop than Manhattan, Brooklyn or The Bronx. That may account for its seeming neglect during the early years of subway construction. And note also that the LIRR functioned more or less as the borough's main rapid transit system for many years.
Had the IND been completly built, the IND would be able to claim that they were the "system" to serve Queens, as almost every neighborhood would have some kind of subway service.
I do not see the 2nd Av line giving any serious relief to the Lex unless/until it is extended into the Bronx, taking over existing service and/or offering essentially cross-platform transfers.
I disagree strongly. Even if not a single Bronx rider transferred to the 2nd Avenue line, enough Upper East Siders who now ride the 6 (and, to a lesser extent, the 4/5) would use the new line to make a very big difference. I wouldn't be surprised if over half the load on a typical 6 train between 125 and 42 boards south of 125.
Bronx service would be great, but even a stubway would be a major improvement over the present.
Upper East Siders who now ride the 6 (and, to a lesser extent, the 4/5)
Actually, I don't think the 4/5 is "lesser" at all. Back when I lived on the UES, the 4/5 platform at 86th was a nightmare. Some people would walk half a mile or more rather than get onto the 6 and then transfer at GCT. And remember, the 4/5 goes directly to Wall Street whereas the 6 ends at Brooklyn Bridge, so financial district workers taking the 6 had to change no matter what.
I think the crushing is about equal between the 6 and the 4/5.
Oh, I'm not denying that the 4/5 is crowded, and I'm not denying that lots of folks board the 4/5 at 86. But at the local stops, everyone boards the 6, while at 125, much of the 6's passenger load from the Bronx transfers to the 4/5.
My point is that, even if nobody transferred to an intraborough 2nd Avenue line at 125, it would pick up many of those who now fill up the 6. It would also take a few riders off the 4/5, specifically some of those who board at 86, but the 4/5 would still have its crowds from the Bronx (including those transferring from the 6).
I agree. Anyone who thinks that a 2nd Ave train from 125th wouldn't relieve the Lex needs to try to get on any southbound train (4/5/6) at 86th in the morning rush.
"That's why a perpendicular terminus along 125th form Park to Lex is better. It's easier to transfer from the Lex if the 2d Ave crosses under it . Also, you'd get direct transfers from Metro-North, and an easier, underground transfer from MN to the Lex."
This is what I will prefer too.. but this plan does not offer a bronx option unless they have a second avenue line go straight up to the bronx.
N Broadway Line
They could always extend the line up second ave., leaving the Lex-125th stop as an alternate terminus.
What I understand, the reason why they choose 125th and Lexington Avenue, is probably because it would be cheaper to send the train to the Bronx from here (lex 125th Street) than from 2nd Avenue.
ohhhh.. Just a little secret b/t you and me, I would love to see the N extended to the Bronx from Astoria. But we all know this isn't possible for two reason: LaGuardia Airport and the Nimby in the area.. And the N really doesn't offer that many options... except the #7... THANK GOD!
N Bwy
A really kinky extension of the Astoria line would be to send it back across the river (under Hell Gate) via Randall's Island and thence either to 2nd Av and parts north via 106th, or directly north into the Bronx.
"A really kinky extension of the Astoria line would be to send it back across the river (under Hell Gate) via Randall's Island and thence either to 2nd Av and parts north via 106th, or directly north into the Bronx."
I prefer a direct route to the Bronx, possibly replacing the #5 Dyre Avenue Line.
N Bwy
But wouldn't it be harder to send the 2nd Avenue Line into the Bronx from 125th and Lex? If 2nd Avenue is extended north from 125th and 2nd, it simply goes directly north into the Bronx and it can turn east at 138th Street to take over Pelham Line service or to run alongside Amtrak on the NE Corridor.
But if the 2nd Avenue line is extended north from 125th and Lex, in order for it to access the Bronx, it would have to either run under the 4/5/6 line or it would have to run under MN or continue west along 125th Street and turn north along Madison or 5th Avenues. And once in the Bronx, where would it go from there?
The idea of the Lex-125th station is that the Second Ave. line would eventually take over the Pelham Bay line from the 6, which would then terminate at 125th.
I'm not so hot on the idea, because the zig-zag nature of the route -- going west on 138th St. in the Bronx, then under the Harlem River and back east on 125th and then west again on 63rd St. (assuming the stubway section is built first) means that a lot of Pelham Bay Riders may opt for a transfer to a more direct express train at 125th (assuming the transfer isn't a big pain in the butt to accomplish). The plan would mean far less crowding on the No. 6 for Manhattan local passengers, but it could mean more crowding on the 4/5.
Maybe a better Bronx routing would for 2nd Avenue to take over the Jerome Avenue line from the 4. That would eliminate some of the zig-zag nature of the Bronx routing. However, the 2nd Avenue line would have to be shoehorned in, either running next to or below the Lex and would have to continue running under the 4/5 line until north of 149th Street and rise up into place to take over Jerome Avenue service. That could present a real challenge, at least from an engineering standpoint. Also, something would have to replace the 4 in Brooklyn (the 6, maybe).
"I'm not so hot on the idea, because the zig-zag nature of the route -- going west on 138th St. in the Bronx, then under the Harlem River and back east on 125th and then west again on 63rd St. (assuming the stubway section is built first) means that a lot of Pelham Bay Riders may opt for a transfer to a more direct express train at 125th (assuming the transfer isn't a big pain in the butt to accomplish). The plan would mean far less crowding on the No. 6 for Manhattan local passengers, but it could mean more crowding on the 4/5."
It does seem likely. That's why I prefer a crosstown route along 125th Street, and a route going straight up 2nd Avenue into the Bronx. Then these same connections can be accomplished at Southern Blvd w/ the #6 and Westchester Avenue w/ the 4/5 via 3rd Avenue.. I also support the idea of using the B/W railroad route into Dyre Avenue.
N Bwy
The idea of the Lex-125th station is that the Second Ave. line would eventually take over the Pelham Bay line from the 6, which would then terminate at 125th.
First, I'd always heard it was the Dyre Avenue line (old NY&W) that was supposed to be connected. Maybe I heard wrong? The Pelham Bay line would be far cleaner, since it's its own ROW breaking off even before the 138-Grand Concourse station.
Second, I'm having trouble with Peter D's track book understanding tunnel configurations where the IRT goes into the Bronx. He doesn't have a "Crossings" page for that stretch, at least in my 2nd edition. (Or are they all bridges, like the 1 train Broadway bridge? I don't remember passing under any other subway bridges on Metro North, so I gotta think they're tunnels.)
So I'm wondering what the uptown tunnels are called, analagous to downtown's Rutgers, Cranberry, Clark, Montague and Joralemon tunnels? There seem to be three: the 4/5/6 tunnel from 125 to 138-GC, the 2/5 tunnel from 135 to 149-GC and the B/D tunel from 155 to 161-Yankee Stadium.
The originial, original Second Ave. plan called for the connection to the Dyre Ave. line, which is one reason why Dyre was part of the B division for the first 15 years or so of its operation by NYTS. When the second version of the Second Ave. project was released by the MTA in the late 1960s, the Dyre link was out and the plan now was to hook the line up to the Pelham Bay line east of 138th St. and Third Ave., and presumably the No. 6 train would have terminated at that point.
That plan at least would have given the Second Ave. line its own tunnel into the Bronx. The new, new, new plan cuts that out and creates the zig-zag route to Lexington and 125th to allow the Second Ave. line to use that tunnel instead to get to the Bronx.
As far as the track layout goes, it's not that tough logistically, since the IRT local tracks both cross the Harlem River and enter the 125th St. station on the east (Second Ave.) side of the 4/5 express tracks, on two different levels. So hooking up the Second Ave. tracks would only be a matter of running the line across 125 and then turning it north again on the east side of Lexington Ave. (though as I said in aonther post, the Lex 125th St. station and the Second Ave. one would end up at least 1 1/2 blocks out of alignment, since the new station couldn't begin any further south than midway between 125th and 126th streets).
To terminate the 6 at 125th, the MTA would either have to build a connecting ramp between the upper and lower level tracks north of the station (and before the tracks would merge with the new Second Ave. line) or build a crossing switch just north of the 116th St. station, so trains could switch there and have access to both the upper and lower levels of the 125th St. station. The latter is probably easier to do, but would create a Bergen Street-like problem for passengers, who wouldn't know if the 6 was coming in on the upper or lower level.
"When the second version of the Second Ave. project was released by the MTA in the late 1960s, the Dyre link was out and the plan now was to hook the line up to the Pelham Bay line east of 138th St. and Third Ave., and presumably the No. 6 train would have terminated at that point."
No wonder the second avenue subway will never be a reality.. so many stupid ideas!
Taking over the #6 will not do anything for bronx riders. But will probably complicate things further. Like I said in previous post, the best solution is to create a crosstown 125th Street line... run a second avenue line straight up to the bronx from second avenue, possibly running on 3rd avenue and the former NY W railroad into Dyre Avenue..
The dyre avenue rout will solve the problem that the 2/5 merger face at 180th Street... and individuals will again have transportation in the central bronx. Above all, no longer will people have trouble connection to lines if their is a crosstown line along 125th Street.
The icing on the cake will be to bring the N into the bronx which will also go to dyre avenue via old NY W railroad.
N Bwy
Sending the 2nd Ave to Dyre confuses me. How can that be done if the 2nd Ave will be built to B standards. Yes it's easy to change the platforms on the Dyre Ave line to allow for wider trains, but doesn't the train have to use the White Plains line to 180 street to get to the Dyre line. Won't that mess things up for the 2 train going to 241 Wakefield? The new 2 Ave line and the 2 train can't both stop at all the stations between Manhattan and 180 St because they are different widths.
It would follow the New Haven r.o.w. (basically, following the routes of the Major Deegan and the Bruckner to intersection the X-Bronx and Bronx River express/park-ways). It's easy to get to the Dyre line at this point. The plan calls for another line to (apparently) continue along the New Haven tracks and thence into Co-op City; as an alternative to the last, it could easily take over the Pelham line from Southern Blvd. on.
All of this would appreciably relieve the Lex, but not as much as a 4-track line would.
The easiest way would be to have the 2nd avenue line is to swing over to where the old Third Avenue EL used to be run across White Plains Road into Co-op city.This you would have two lines going down the east side the new 2nd avenue line and the Dyre Avenue line, thus this would relieve overcrowding at Dyre Avenue, and service for residents of Co-op City, and it could help the Lexington Avenue Thru trains with a stop at Gun Hill Road, This was and pipe dream that I had for about 30 years or so,I dont think it would ever happen but to me this is the most feasible route.
Guess what? The plans for the Second Ave. line which were put in place in the late '60s included just what you wanted, but then came the fiscal crisis and everything went into the trash. I hope it comes up again, because it is very much needed.
The Dyre Avenue #5 line actually branches off the orignal White Plains line to get to Dyre Avenue from E180th Street, North. Also, the platforms was closed in to allow for the IRT cars to serve these stations. So if the "new" second avenue line serves this extension, the stations along this path (E180th Street north) will actually be restore to it's original station configurations.
This plan is much better than the #5 line, because it reduces the amount of time that it takes to switch in front of the #2 that is heading to White Plains Road. And, perhaps an express line could be created all the way to Gun Hill Road, or 238th Street.
The only problem would be the cross platform will be eliminated, causing passengers to do a cross station connection. But that's much better than crossing trains infront of each other which results in delays and crowded trains.
N Bwy
I actually prefer the idea of running the 2nd Avenue line to the bronx (via 2nd Avenue). I also will like to see an elevated line 3rd Avenue connecting the #6, than the 4/5 and possible go all the way to Fordam Plaza or as far as White Plains/Gun Hill Roads. Meanwhile (as you mentioned earlier), a route can be created via the old Boston and westchester railroad to Dyre Avenue taking over the #5 line.
N Broadway Line
If you build the 125/Lex/Park station, the question is if they will come.
Not enough to fill up a train, but enough to help relieve congestion on the 4/5/6. The following itniteraries would make it worthwhile to change at 125th:
- Bronx or Metro-North to 3rd Ave in the low 50s or to the UN area.
- Pelham Bay line to 6th/7th Ave midtown area.
The 86th St and 2nd Ave stop will also pull huge numbers of people away from 86th and Lex. 72nd and 2nd will draw people away from 77th and 68th and Lex.
Also, don't underestimate the number of people who pack onto the highly unreliable but yet very full 2nd Ave buses.
Everyone's also forgetting that the Stubway will bring people to the W. Side and downtown via 63rd and Bway.
If it were a four-track line, two tracks could run into the Bronx while the other two run across 125th Street (or the other way, to LGA).
Or there could be a BIG junction:
Local branches: 125 St to Broadway, under East River to LGA.
Express: Dyre, probably somewhere else as well.
I think Bloomberg should immediately cease and desist distributing tickets to the viewing platform at ground zero, and should restrict that platform to those who were immediately affected by the attack...the friends and loved ones of the deceased.
Get an ice cream, an I Love NY T shirt, and ground zero tickets at the Seaport. Yeah, right.
I also think that any discussion right now of how to rebuild the site is disrespectful of what happened. I'm not in favor of wallowing in misery forever. But this was the worst day in NYC and USA history. It can't be papered over and forgotten about.
I'm reminded of an incident I heard about following JFK's assassination. Jackie had his blood spattered all over her outfit. In the hours that followed, someone mentioned, discreetly, that she might like to change her dress. She refused, saying she wanted the world to know what was done.
I believe the world needs to be reminded of what was done at WTC...next week, next year, and a century from now.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I absolutely agree. I know how valuable the real estate is, but the site is not only a place of remembrance, but also a wartime graveyward, like Gettysburg, whether we like it or not.
It's only four months, we're still in mortal danger, but lots of people are ready to "get on with their lives."
"It's only four months, we're still in mortal danger, but lots of people are ready to "get on with their lives."
I see your point, Paul. But in some ways, people do need to move on with their lives. Obviously this will be a lot harder for those who lost people, and that is completely understandable. At the same time though, whenever major tragedies happen, all there is to do is learn from what happened, and try to "pick up the pieces" and begin to move on. I as well as millions of other Americans (especially those in the tri-state area) will never forget the horror which took place on 9/11. But at the same time, it is necessary to move on, because if we don't we simply "wallow" in pain, and thats not healthy. A new wtc w/ a memorial site will be built, and I don't see a reason to delay it...once the cleanup effort is complete. -Nick
I think that's a very exaggerated view of the situation. Your use of history is a littlew flawed too.
This is not Gettysberg. Pearl Harbor, maybe. Not Gettysberg.
"It's only four months, we're still in mortal danger, but lots of people are ready to "get on with their lives."
Good guess. Kids have to be fed, the mortgage has to be paid, and the electric bill keeps coming. And, on top of that, some posters on this site want to make sure the newly unemployed stay that way.
Exaggerated? Wow!
It's only four months, we're still in mortal danger, but lots of people are ready to "get on with their lives.
Good guess. Kids have to be fed, the mortgage has to be paid, and the electric bill keeps coming. And, on top of that, some posters on this site want to make sure the newly unemployed stay that way.
Not to brag or anything, but I made it into work on Thursday, 9-13 even though my workplace was only about a mile and half from the WTC site and still was officially closed. I was one of three people in a department of more than 30 to make it in. It actually turned out to be a productive day, and I like to think that by working that day I did my best to show the terrorists that America couldn't be cowed. It wasn't much of a gesture individually, of course, but multipled by thousands, that's a different story.
Good for you. You set an example for others to emulate.
I think Bloomberg should immediately cease and desist distributing tickets to the viewing platform at ground zero, and should restrict that platform to those who were immediately affected by the attack... the friends and loved ones of the deceased.
How could that possibly be enforced? Anyone could walk up and say that they were a friend of one of the deceased. Personally, I have no desire to go there - my attitude is that if I'm not able to help, I might well be a hindrance, and I don't want to be in the way - but I don't think the viewing platform should be off limits to anyone. All of us, in some way, have been affected by the attack, and should be permitted the same access as anyone else to the viewing site. I have a co-worker whose wife home-schools their three children (ages 9, 11, and 14, or thereabouts)-; she took the children there this past week as part of their education, so they could see first-hand the horror they had been hearing about. Not something I would have chosen to do if I were in their place, but he feels that they learned a great deal from the experience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I myself have first hand experance with 9-11-01.As most of you know from this board, my brother,sister and myself worked in the area[my brother in Tower one] He was injured by falling debree from building two.Hurt,but not dead[thank god].... My sister was walking to work from the subway station at Chambers st[A,C,E]. She was fine,...and me? miles away... anyway,my point is SEPTEMBER 11 will be a day that will remain with us for the rest of our lives,wither there is something built there or not...and even though my families ok,thats not the case for thousands of others.So I feel respect is in order here for the dead and the families they left behind....let them grieve,reflect,whatever it takes,to fully come to terms with what has happened and put it behind them,so lives can return somewhat to what passes of as normallacy.....God bless.....
I've been at the World Trade Center site (Ground Zero) myself. I was there on November 21st and it was an experience that I'll never forget. It still smelled there at the time and one could only imagine the horror that took place there on September 11th. In my own opinion when they rebuild the site they should build twin towers once again and have a portion of the orginial twin towers that survived placed in a plaza as a memorial to those that perished in the disaster.
#3 West End Jeff
To everyone that responded to this message-- you all made good points, and I think the entire country is in some sort of communal catharsis!!! This whole event is STILL unbelievable to EVERYBODY. I can empathize totally with those who saw the fiasco on 1 dimensional TV--they need to SEE it to TRY and make it sensible. It's not only tourists that are going to that platform, but New Yorkers that have been so familiar with what WAS there for so long. And my deepest sympathies go out to those that directly knew people that were injured or died in that horror. Believe me, if you saw what I saw between 9:20am and 9:45am from where I was standing numb, you know what I mean. Oh, there were news cameras pointed to the Plaza, BUT YOU WILL NEVER SEE the carnage that was recorded on film--YOU DONT WANT TO, but THAT is the last image I have in my mind of that spacious plaza strewn with bodies that jumped or were hit on the ground trying to ESCAPE the darn buildings. And lots of people I know that worked inthe complex are moved to offices elsewhere. I dont know anybody that is out of a job due to their entire company being destroyed, but some people out there are in that predicament. True, it's unhealthy to wallow in fear and stop life, but I am glad that the plans to start reconstructing are happening sooner than I ever expected. Just leaving the mess that is there for too long will cause that wallowing in misery. I guess the new WTC will be similar to the WTC-like complex in Century City in LA. And for a bit, it will be life as usual but with diversions--I learned that when I went back to work on 9/13, and I work in Soho. But directly connected with this site, Thank Heaven at least there is an attempt to bring regular 1 service to South Ferry for those who need to commute there. Business as usual, but with a slight diversion............. Tony
If the World Trade Center site is left empty, it will prove that the terrorists defeated us. If twin towers are built once again it means that we won't let terrorists try to defeat us. We should also get our hands on Osama Bin Laden and throw him into jail for the rest of his natural life. Then once the new "twin towers" are built they should put Osama Bin Laden on display (under heavy guard) where he can be ridiculed and treated like a fool because that is what he is. I would love to give him the Bronx cheer.
#3 West End Jeff
We should also get our hands on Osama Bin Laden and throw him into jail for the rest of his natural life.
Why waste time, space and money? If anybody deserves death, it's him.
Death would be too easy for Osama Bin Laden. He should be put into a jail cell and ridiculed by the public.
#3 West End Jeff
He doesn't care about the American public.
They why should we care how we treat Osama Bin Laden. I would love to toss a pail of ice cold water on him.
#3 West End Jeff
I say again - mke him clean up the Ground Zero site with a worn toothbrush and a bar of soap, and no sleep, food or water until the whole area is done. That will fix his wagon.
That would be a terrific puhishment for Osama Bin Laden. If he is not fast enough I'd whip him with a thick leather belt. Better yet, use a whip that is used by lion trainers.
#3 West End Jeff
place him in a pit with a bunch of starving Florida Peccaries. The tush hogs (Rhymes with Crush) will convert him into a form suitable for his afterlife. Tush hogs eat pit bulls for an appetizer.
Great idea. I would like to see Osama Bin Laden get eaten by some starving Florida Peccaries.
#3 West End Jeff
Death is too good for him. But then if anyone should get the death penalty it's him.
Still, in a way the events of September 11th put up an interesting argument against the death penalty. Where are the hijackers now? Dead, by their own design. There is no way we can punnish them now, and no way we can get information out of them.
Not that bin Laden or any key members of al-Qaida are likely to give information willingly.
I do believe, BTW, that a life sentence---a real life sentence where the convict is locked up and the key is thrown away--is a worse punnishment than death.
:-) Andrew
Good move. Osama Bin Laden should NEVER see the light of day ever again.
#3 West End Jeff
And death is the way to do that.
Death is too easy for Osama Bin Laden. He should spend the rest of his life in a prison cell.
#3 West End Jeff
Better yet, life by Redbird undercar. Of course, that is unusual and extreme punishment reserved only for CIs. CI Peter
Osama Bin Laden should be tortured by the general public. Maybe people can stick him with pins and needles. I would also throw ice cold water on him. You can also try putting him on the subway in a cage and have people pull his beard.
#3 West End Jeff
I came up with the perfect punishment:
Standard life imprisonment, even a little more luxurious than a standard max security prison, BUT he would have an implant installed in his brain which would constantly stimulate the section of the brain which causes reactions of fear. He would fear absolutely everything, and live YEARS like this in the worst kind of misery: mortally afraid of everything.
That would be the perfect punishment for Osama Bin Laden. Then he would be afraid of EVERYTHING!! Then they should build a new World Trade Center with twin towers and put him on public display in the lobby under heavy guard. Then to add to his fear they should have recordings of people screaming in fear that are played during the night and this is when he is placed in a darked room. Or they can play recordings of a ferocius lion ready to attack him. He could be put in the area where the lions are in the Bronx Zoo in his cage and they can charge at him. Maybe if he is just in the wrong place one of the lion can put a paw through and he gets a swipe. You can also put an ill tempered cat in the same cage as Osama Bin Laden and the cat could swipe him at times. Then I would have a horse kick Osama Bin Laden once a week so that he is in constant pain. I would also make him clean subway cars with a badly worn out mop. I would also make him do track work the old-fashioned way with picks and other suitable tools. If he isn't fast enough he would get the whip. He would live in HELL!! with what I would want to do to him.
#3 West End Jeff
I hate to be contributing to off-topic threads, but my prediction is that some Somali or Chechen warlord is going to call up the CIA in a year or so and say, "Is that $25 million still available, dead or alive?" and when told yes, deliver his body.
I do believe, BTW, that a life sentence---a real life sentence where the convict is locked up and the key is thrown away--is a worse punnishment than death.
Only if they aren't fed in their little box, so it would be sort of a death penalty.
I don't believe in the lethal injection. If a person committed a crime heinous enough to justify the death penalty, he doesn't deserve to die painlessly.
Why not for a life sentence, give them just enough food to survive, so they wind up going crazy and consuming their own feces?
I'm getting tired of that opinion. News flash: the terorrists did beat us (they lost 20 people, we lost 4000). The thing is, they won the battle, not the war. Whether or not we replace 2 buildings, we still are going to win the war.
and have a portion of the orginial twin towers that survived placed in a plaza as a memorial to those that perished in the disaster
I think they saved a piece of the WTC with the pointy windows from the bottom. That would be great for part of a memorial in a courtyard. Does anyone know if they did save a piece?
A section has been saved... not sure what piece, but your description sounds accurate from what I recall of the news photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's NYC's tradition to pave over it's own history, i doubt this will be too much different. the site will be rebuilt, with buildigs on it, and perhaps some sort of memorial. i don't necessarily like that fact, but it's the way it is...
as for the platform, tickets, seaport... the tourists are going to go down there anyway. they have been from day one. I think they ought to be selling the tickets to raise money for funds for the families. charge them 10 bucks a pop.
letting people from all over, everyday people, see it is in a small way a way of letting more people see just what happened...
though the long and the short of it is, the media censors too much. all the peope that jumped from the buildings, things like that, shocking as it was, it shoulda been more widely released, aired, etc. until you see the real horror of that morning for it's human element, and not just buildings falling down, well... ...you dehumanize it. i somehow doubt a lot of people overseas really get even close to a good grasp of how serious it was. they didn't get to hear firsthand accounts of people falling out of the sky, exploding against the sides of the towers, the looks of fear and bewilderment on people's faces, the taxis and buses commondered by emergency personnel speeding downtown, waving helmets and badges out the windows to get through traffic...
anywho...
my .2 cents.
The Joe--Great facts that you brought up in your post. However, it actually WAS a good thing that the media DID NOT show you the unedited tapes of what I saw the cameras filming that morning as far as the casualties. TOO GRUESOME beyond description. It's even horriffic seeing the non-human damage (the rubble, that PATH train, the Cortlandt IRT station). URGH!!!! Tony
Univision did air the raw video at first, but then pulled back (not sure if airing the falling bodies was a local decision, or one made by the corporate headquarters in Los Angeles, 3,000 miles away).
I don't like the idea of the viewing platforms either. I'm sure that most of the people going to view the WTC site are sincere. But it has already taken on too festive an atmosphere with all the lowlife street vendors hawking caps, shirts, etc. This whole ground zero ticket business smells of a tasteless gimmick to get people to visit the Seaport, which had problems attracting tourists even before 9/11. Since you can't realistically restrict ticket sales, the viewing platforms should be taken down. Not everything is required to be a tourist attraction.
We can't stop the discussion of rebuilding plans. Something is going to built there. It's the frenzy around all the discussions that is disprespectful. The towers weren't down a week before there was talk of what to replace it with. That was a time to just shut up and work behind the scenes. There just may not be the need for anything approaching the square footage destroyed in the attacks. I think we'll see the some of street grid restored through the WTC site and 2 or 3 smaller office buildings and a memorial structure.
That post makes sense.
I personally would want a small but meaningful memorial site, and as much commercial/residential/cultural development as the market will hold. We need to get back to work.
I WANT ***BIG BU$INE$$*** TO RETURN THERE. AMERICA AND CAPITALISM RULE.no yuppie street cafes. We just need to make sure business plays nice
OK with me.
This whole ground zero ticket business smells of a tasteless gimmick to get people to visit the Seaport, which had problems attracting tourists even before 9/11.
Very interesting point. I wondered why the ticket distribution point was at the Seaport - it's more or less in the opposite direction for people getting to lower Manhattan by subway (and not particularly close to the subway, for that matter). But as a means of attracting tourists, it makes sense.
The world outside the few who saw the destruction first hand ( was on a manhattan bound R40 slant on the manny B when the 2nd plane hit and walking back overt he manny B when the towers fell) Need to see the destruction first hand. The more people who do befor the site iss cleared the better.
The ticket distribution plan is helping all new yorkers because the tourists are spending thier money here and more importantly downtown. this will help the city heal.
The seaport shopping center is in bad shape. Even before 9/11. It needs all the help it can get or we will have another casualty of 9/11. And I an not talking about the real estae firm who runs the place but the people who work thier
I am sensitive to what happened there, too, but what many people don't seem to understand is this:
1) You take care of the LIVING first and foremost - and THEN memorialize the dead.
2) 100,000 people stand the risk of losing their jobs. That's not just dollars and cents. That's people not feeding their families, not having health insurance, not going to the dentist to fill cavities or get root canals, not being able to send their kids to college. That's serious stuff. Charity is nice, but no amount of charity will take care of that. And the interests of the dead do not trump the interests of the living.
Jackie Kennedy's refusal to touch her dress had no negative consequences for the dressmaker. Delaying economic recovery will put people into poverty who didn't deserve it. It's as if we produced secondary explosions to magnify the damage Osama and his buddies achieved.
Those 16 acres are not, and cannot be, merely a burial ground. And as long as they're not going to be that, their prompt redevelopment (this does NOT mean you don't put a memorial there) is crucial to New York's recovery.
3) People do need to find closure - agreed. But closure in this case may have to mean professional counseling, "grief resources" and other means. It does not mean interfering with the livelihoods of others.
We can't help the dead anymore. But we can help the living - including survivors- in appropriate ways. We don't forget this happened, but we move on and renew.
the viewing platform is very disgraceful and tasteless. imagine this, i go to school at Stuyvesant High School, about 5 blocks away from the towers. I saw 9/11 from my own eyes, beginning to end. So see people going on that platform to take pictures of the catastrophe, in my mind, is the ultimate disrespect. I don't need pictures to remind me of what happened. The images are seared into my brain, and the constant loading of barges at the pier behind my school is a constant reminder. i think too many leaders in NY have put promoting WTC as a tourist attraction to gain money instead of memorializing it properly.
"So see people going on that platform to take pictures of the catastrophe, in my mind, is the ultimate disrespect. I don't need pictures to remind me of what happened."
You may not need to see the pictures, but other people do....I took pictures for a friend who requested that I do, because she didn't think she would be able to pay her respects at ground zero anytime soon. What I think is disrespectful is when people are posing with smiling faces w/ ground zero in the background...that i just don't understand. But taking photos for others who wish to see them I don't have a problem with. -Nick
The whole thing, the platform, the tourists, the bloodsucking profiteers, the involvement of the Seaport.
Makes me sick.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hrm, Stuy people seem to show up everywhere :) Class of 99 here...
I don't see why people's attraction to the site (viewing platform's et all) is disrespectful. People are curious and rightly so. Hearing about it and seeing it in the news just doesn't do it justice. Its really hard to understand for most people I presume. It needs to be driven home. I've walked the perimeter of the site 3 times, and spent much time just walking along avenues south of NYU looking at the skyline and trying to make it sink in.
I believe the best possible thing would be to have the aftermath recorded in as many photo albums as possible. Photos are vivid reminders that last and don't forget or distort the truth. Just because you don't need to see them doesn't alter this.
As for the tickets, I believe they are needed. There needs to be some way of throttling the demand for the platforms. The ticket booths are not terribly far, but away enough to not add to the crowds in the area. And the seaport could use the collateral business. If all the directly affected businesses have done everything to get back on their feet in order to escape defeat, whats so different about this tourist routing? The collapse of any business, the loss of any jobs downtown is another victory for the terrorists.
Giuliani's immediate response to people who wanted to get down there with cameras was one of incredulous horror and disgust. He was right the first time...
But Giuliani knew something the rest of us didn't. He saw all of it, from day one, every angle, every face fleeing and then working at the site, in person.
If we saw what he did, we would be disgusted as well. Simply telling us it was so in this case is woefully insufficient.
the viewing platform is very disgraceful and tasteless. imagine this, i go to school at Stuyvesant High School, about 5 blocks away from the towers. I saw 9/11 from my own eyes, beginning to end. So see people going on that platform to take pictures of the catastrophe, in my mind, is the ultimate disrespect. I don't need pictures to remind me of what happened. The images are seared into my brain, and the constant loading of barges at the pier behind my school is a constant reminder. i think too many leaders in NY have put promoting WTC as a tourist attraction to gain money instead of memorializing it properly.
This weekend, I'm going to end up going to visit The Site for the first time since the incident. My future in-laws want to see it. Somehow, I'm kind of dreading it- not because of the tragedy that occurred (I think I'm prepared) but because I've got this feeling that this is turning into some sort of macabre tourist destination. I've also heard that tourists are actually taking family photos on the viewing platforms. That's about as tasteless as sending postcards from Auschwitz.
If there's any consolation, at least my in-laws aren't tasteless bumpkins. I'm leaving my camera at home.
People have to accept responsibility for their own behavior. Some will be idiots, while others will be ladies and gentlemen.
However, the mere fact that the viewing platform was built shows a lack of disrespect and tackiness on the part of the 'city fathers'.
BMTman
One ticket, one 500ml of blood, pick up your tickets as you exit the Red Cross blood donors clinic.
Hurry,hurry, hurry, get your tickets right here.
Validated tickets allows holder to puschase "T" shirt, photos and food from NYC's diversified vendors.
Hurry,hurry, hurry.
Donate a kidney and have your picture taken with a cardboard likeness of his former Honor.
Hurry, hurry, hurry.
avid
The viewing platform does have a sense of both the tacky and morbid, kind of like highway rubberneckers slowing down to check out a fatal crash, only in this case four months after the fact. But the people viewing it are probably no different than some of the celebrities who post-9/11 received their own personal guided tours of Ground Zero from city officials. It would be hard for the city to justify all the VIP tours they gave the "really important" people in the wake of the tragedy and then tell the general public to buzz off.
As for the reconstruction plans, given the contentious and hazard-filled process of getting anything built in New York for the past 35 years, I don't think four months past is that bad a time to start doing some serious work on what will go in place of the WTC complex (four days after was a little tacky, but not four months). Certainly, the MTA and PATH have no choice but to think about rebuilding, since two of their major lines are out, causing headcaches for people in both lower and midtown Manhattan. Discussions now about the site may mean that some sort of general concensus may be reached both about the above ground buildings and/or memorial and the below ground mass transit hub by the time the court ruling on the WTC insurance payment comes down.
>>>It would be hard for
the city to justify all the VIP tours they gave the "really important" people in the wake of the tragedy
and then tell the general public to buzz off. <<
They shouldn't have allowed those "very important" people there either. They're very important, in their heads.
I agree. It's just that from a political standpoint (which is in the end what this boils down to), once they started allowing the rich and famous to visit the place, the city's officials lost a lot of their moral justification for keeping everyone else away. If they had been steadfast and said "no" all the way through, saying "no" now to the platforms would have been a lot easier to do.
>>> the city's officials lost a lot of their moral justification for keeping everyone else away. If they had been steadfast and said "no" all the way through, saying "no" now to the platforms would have been a lot easier to do. <<<
In the United States there is no "moral justification" for preventing its citizens from seeing the damage caused on 9/11. This was not a private tragedy limited to the next of kin of those who died, or those who live in New York. It affected the whole nation, and repulsed the whole world. I suspect the overwhelming majority of those who go to the site are respectful of those who died there. As a free society, opposed to mind control, we have to accept those who are not.
If this is an area that should be closed to public scrutiny, what is next? Do we prevent gawking tourists from going to Dealey Plaza in Dallas? Do we prevent tourists from looking at the Dakota where John Lennon was killed, or prevent those who continue to leave flowers at the intersection where James Dean was killed from going there? Those who can differentiate between these sites and think people should be prevented from seeing one, but not the others, have appointed themselves censors for the rest of us.
The viewing platforms and the selling of tickets are appropriate to control the number of persons who wish to view the site and keep them out of the way of those who are working there.
Tom
We're talking time frame here, and everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Should there have been a Sixth Floor Depository museum and tours in March of 1964, four months after the assassination? Most people would say "no." Is there any problem putting one in later as the event recedes into time and becomes a part of history instead of a part of current events? Again, most people would say "no."
As both a disaster clean-up site and crime scene, the city does have a right to restrict access to the WTC area, which is why a N.Y. Times photographer was arrested over the weekend for using an unauthorized area pass to enter the Ground Zero site to take pictures. Do I expect the same sort of scrutiny a year, two years, five years from now? Of course not. But the events of 9/11 are still fresh in peoples' minds and bodies are still being pulled from the site. Had the city never allowed any of the non-essential celbs down there, they would have had greater justification for not building a viewing site down there at this time. But they were allowed in and there was a flap for several days about the special treatment given to those people, so to refuse to build and operate a platform for the general public now would smack of hypocricy.
Had the city never allowed any of the non-essential celbs down there, they would have had greater justification for not building a viewing site down there at this time. But they were allowed in and there was a flap for several days about the special treatment given to those people, so to refuse to build and operate a platform for the general public now would smack of hypocricy.
I agree, and moreover, people started coming down to the site as soon as the area was opened east of Broadway. It's a perfectly natural human emotion to want to visit the site of horror, to see, to witness, to try to comprehend and take in the reality.
I can argue both sides on the viewing platform. But from what I've heard, the crowds have been as respectful and as moved as they were before the ramp was built. Smiling photos with wreckage in the background seem like they'd be a small minority.
Certain "famous people" need to have seen it, up close and personal, and as soon after the disaster as possible.
These are politicians and foreign leaders who make policy and might otherwise not have grasped the full reality of it.
Those aren't the ones I'm talking about, and I'm not even talking about the celebs, such as the Yankees and Giants players, who the rescue crews wanted to visit with. The ones I mean are the beautiful people who seemingly dealt with their trips there the same way British nobles dealt with guided tours through the Kalahari Plains or other exotic locales.
Allowing people like that to get guided tours of the site opened the city up to criticism in the future if they prevented the general public from viewing the location, because they had no more business being at the site than the general public.
Well, with the "beautiful people," I wonder how many (and which ones) came out of a desire to show support, or morbid curiosity, or with an eye to their future press releases, to say "You see! I am too a sensitive person! I went to ground zero!"
How many times are we reminded that a rock star, or supermodel,is more equal than others.
On the other hand, local charities want them to visit because they can help open a lot of wallets (including their own). It's not just "T and A" at work here; it's money.
I believe the world needs to be reminded of what was done at WTC...next week, next year, and a century from now.
Which does not mean that the reconstruction work should be delayed. What happened on September 11th was tragic, but we cannot wallow in self-pity. The only true way to show that the terrorists didn't win is to proceed with reconstruction all speed ahead - and resuming 1/9 service this fall is a big part of that.
Otherwise New York (and the nation) will be like those pathetic people who blame childhood "trauma" for the fact that they're total losers at age 35.
>>>The only true way to show that the
terrorists didn't win <<<
They didn't win?
Of course they won. They set out to kill as many Americans as possible, striking at the heart of the USA--downtown Manhattan and Washington, DC...to prove that America is not invulnerable and maybe...just maybe...can be defeated if an attack is carried out with enough stealth. No country, no terrorist cell can match the USA missile for missile, weapon for weapon. So any potential enemy will strike at civilians and try to take as many casualties as possible.
To say that, in this case, the terrorists did not win is naive.
Our task now is to make certain that the United States will never again be bloodied by terrorist attacks and to give potential terrorists serious pause before they consider further actions like this.
Well, it all depends on how you interpret these events. You seem to believe they set out to kill as many Americans as possible, and I and Mr. Rosa seem to believe that they set out to disrupt our way of life.
For us, defense is simply not enough. We believe we must move quickly to take this as an opportunity to improve what once was. We've learned a lot of things since the WTC was built, and we can use these things towards making something better. Any delay or complete abandonment of the site for its traditional uses would be a failure persevere. I fear it would do more damage than good in both the lost fertile business environment (meaning the atmosphere of the pre-9/11 Financial District and WTC's contribution to it) and morale.
One reason I believe they set out to maximize disruption and not deaths is I believe for all their cunning in devising this attack, they would have used the planes far more effectively. To discuss how is not something I want to get into, but this attack wasn't the deadliest the one the 767s were capable of.
What was the terrorists purpose?
If you look at the attacks (remember it was plural) in classic military terms, the purpose of a sneak attack is to demoralize an enemy (that's us) with an overwhelming attack. They hit WTC and the Pentagon nearly simultaneously and the fourth plane would have gone where? The White House? Congress?
Remember that on 9/11 none of us knew what was going to happen next. One "talking head" on TV suggested, as Bush didn't return instantly to the White House, that this brought into question "the continuity of the government." I think that's exactly what the terrorists hoped for.
If they hadn't succeeded in that ambitious purpose, at least I think they believed they would have been able to drive the U.S. out of those areas of the world where they don't want it to be.
Yes, they're hostile to our way of life, but I think spoiling our way of living was secondary to more ambitious goals.
Anyway, we should make policy based on what we need, not by trying to figuring out "what the terrorists wanted" and then doing the opposite. That in itself empowers them.
Just my opinion.
You can almost always do something once. That's hard to prevent. We need to make sure the second time doesn't happen.
>>> I think Bloomberg should immediately cease and desist distributing tickets to the viewing platform at ground zero, and should restrict that platform to those who were immediately affected by the attack...the friends and loved ones of the deceased. <<<
You are wrong. This was not an automobile accident that involved only those in two cars. The attack affected all of the people in the nation. The site cannot be hidden away.
>>> But this was the worst day in NYC and USA history. <<<
Kevin, you of all people should retain a historical perspective. September 11th was possibly the worst day in New York City history although some would say each of the days of the draft riots of 1863 were worse, requiring three regiments of infantry and a battery of artillery to be pulled from the front lines of the Civil War to restore order.
The occupation of Washington, D.C. and the burning of the capitol by an invading foreign army during the War of 1812, and the Battles of Bull Run (Manassas) during the Civil War can be considered worse days in U.S. history than September 11th.
>>> I believe the world needs to be reminded of what was done at WTC...next week, next year, and a century from now. <<<
This is true, but that should be done with an appropriate memorial, not leaving the site untouched. What would London and Hiroshima (both cities that took bigger hits than New York) look like today if the only way to remind people in the future of what happened there were to leave those sites undisturbed?
Tom
Some bombed structures in England are still in ruins, partly in remembrance, and Hiroshima preserves the bombed shell of a building at the center of the blast as a reminder of what happened there.
The result of whatever is put, or not put, on the site of the WTC should not be primarily to provide closure for those most closely affected, though that's a fine result. It should be to remind us what happens when we massively turn our backs, and forget.
Don't assume that those who died 9/11 are the end of it.
>>>The result of whatever is put, or not put, on the site of the WTC should not be primarily to provide
closure for those most closely affected, though that's a fine result. It should be to remind us what
happens when we massively turn our backs, and forget. <<<
The Times had an article about memorials made to commemorate the deceased in previous NYC disasters, such as the General Slocum boat fire and the Triangle Shirtwaist Farctory disaster (which was really a manslaughter). Those monuments or plaques are well hidden and it takes pretty good detective work to discover where they are.
9/11/01 dwarfs both in the number of casualties. I suspect, and hope, any monument constructed as a memorial will be as moving as, for example, Maya Lin's Vietnam War Memorial in Washington.
But 100 years on who can say how 9/11/01 will be commemorated...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Funny you should mention Maya Lin's Vietnam Memorial. Anyone who has seen it has been enormously moved by it. Yet I can't help noting that it is below the surface, not seen much from a distance. Compare this to the proposed WWII Memorial, which would splash across the landscape in monumental style.
This seems to me to reflect our sentiments about the two wars. World War II captures our attention and stands a a national centerpiece. The Vietnam War's mourning is personal and hidden, just beneath the surface.
Not to diminsh Sep. 11, but I agree that the historical evidence definitely shows that the draft riots of 1863 were an incredibly worse day in NYC history. Essentially, a miniature civil war was fought within the confines of the city and the same number of people died as on Sep. 11, but out of a population of roughly 1 million, rather than the NYC metro area's current 20 million.
So the percent death toll was 20 times as high, property damage was huge, and what was worse is that New Yorkers did it to each other.
So the percent death toll was 20 times as high, property damage was huge, and what was worse is that New Yorkers did it to each other.
Is there any physical evidence remaining of the Draft Riots? Any memorials or permanent reminders?
None that I know of. I think everyone wanted to forget their bad behavior as quickly as possible. Both the draft rioters and the militia who suppressed them did things they couldn't possibly have been proud of afterwards.
>>>Is there any physical evidence remaining of the Draft Riots? Any memorials or permanent
reminders? <<<
Luc Sante, writing in his 1991 book Low Life, says,
--------------------
The Draft Riots are not claimed by New York as one of the great events in its history. They are considered an embarrassment, and a large percentage of the city's population have no idea that an insurrection on a vast scale ever took place in their municipality. There are no plaques to mark the sites of the battles, no museum exhibits devoted to artifacts, and no perennial feature stories in newspapers on the anniversary of the occasion. Alvin F. Harlow, the Bowery's historian, devotes all of four sentences to the riots in his record of the street...
Nevertheless their impact is hard to overlook. The numbers alone are eloquent: killed were possibly 2,000 rioters, about a hundred black people, three policemen and around fifty soldiers and guardsmen...
-----------
I recommend the above book as well as Burrows & Wallace's Gotham for accounts of the NY Draft Riots. If you think the USA was close to revolution in 1968-70, it was much closer in 1863...
I was in Baltimore a few years ago, and there are historical signs devoted to the NYC draft riots. Baltimore!
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was in Baltimore a few years ago, and there are historical signs devoted to the NYC draft riots. Baltimore!
What do they say? What's the Baltimore connection?
Well, it was a few years ago, it's hard to remember now.
So Mr. Sante has over 2,000 dead? I'll repeat the firmest figure I could find, from americanhistory.about.com, which says:
"Although the initial reports of more than 1,200 deaths proved exaggerated, as many as 118 people may have been killed before exhausted Union troops, marching straight from their victory at Gettysburg, put down the riot."
Someone is way off. Mr. Sante does not serve history by putting speculative figures in his book, unless he has something firm to back them up.
>>>>Someone is way off. Mr. Sante does not serve history by putting speculative figures in his book,
unless he has something firm to back them up. <<<
In Gotham, Burrows/Wallace say "Contemporaries believed a thousand people had died, though in the end only a body count of 119 could be verified."
I forget what figure was in Burns' recent NYC documentary.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So Mr. Sante has over 2,000 dead? I'll repeat the firmest figure I could find, from americanhistory.about.com, which says:
"Although the initial reports of more than 1,200 deaths proved exaggerated, as many as 118 people may have been killed before exhausted Union troops, marching straight from their victory at Gettysburg, put down the riot."
Someone is way off. Mr. Sante does not serve history by putting speculative figures in his book, unless he has something firm to back them up.
Most likely the worst disaster in U.S. history in terms of "kill rate" was the 1900 Galveston hurricane. About 7,000 people died - out of a population of 10,000.
Somehow it's easier to accept (although horrific) 7000 people dead in a natural disaster, than 2000 dead in a senseless act of violence.
>>> Someone is way off. Mr. Sante does not serve history by putting speculative figures in his book, unless he has something firm to back them up. <<<
The number killed in the draft riots will never be known. "Estimates" are similar to those about how many rapes go unreported or how many illegal aliens are in the United States unknown to the government. Some deaths, those of police officers, soldiers, and prominent citizens would be recorded as well as those who had life insurance, but among the poor, deaths might not be reported to authorities.
There was no Social Security death benefit then, and the police who might normally investigate deaths were barricaded within their precinct houses fighting to save their own lives. Newspaper reporters reported deaths they actually saw, but in those days before the telephoned tip, those could only be a sampling of the total number that occurred. Although called a draft riot, it quickly became a race riot with blacks having their homes burned and being hunted and lynched by hanging, beating, and being set on fire. Since it would do them no good, the surviving families of those victims would have no pressing reason to report the deaths to the authorities, and the authorities, who later learned the names of the ringleaders of the mobs but generally declined to prosecute them were not looking for more names to add to the list of the dead. By the same token rioters who might be wounded by police or soldiers and later died of their wounds or infection also might not be reported.
There was a war going on and the authorities wanted to downplay the event to prevent giving comfort to the enemy. It is generally agreed that at least 1,200 died which is 10 times the number of deaths that specific names can be attached to, but some authors have made higher estimates.
>>> exhausted Union troops, marching straight from their victory at Gettysburg, put down the riot. <<<
To put a bit of on topic content to this post, the troops, three New York regiments, did not march from Gettysburg. They came by train from various battlefields, including Gettysburg to reinforce the garrison troops already in New York and Brooklyn who could not subdue the rioters and had their hands full defending the armories.
Tom
I disagree with you, Tom. Humans are recod keeping animals.
These wasn't people buried by a volcano in a South Pacific island in prehistoric times. Nor were bodies vaporized, as in WTC. Where are these thousand-plus bodies buried? Is there evidence covered up that bodies were carted off and dumped in mass graves? Do you suppose the families of those missing after the riots never said a word? Do you imaginethe families of the killed so degraded that they didn't seek out their missing and dead and have services and funerals?
More to the point, writers exaggerate facts for sensational reasons, for political reasons, or from just plain laziness.
When you say it is "generally agreed" that x number of people died, you'll have to say by whom. History demands that those who claim a sigificantly larger number than 120 or so explain their methods.
On-topic to this forum, remember the ridiculous stories surrounding the Malbone Street wreck ("one third of the dead electrocuted by re-energized third rail"; "many dead illegal immigrants who weren't reported", etc.) repeated by tabloids and, eventually some of the stories by respected writers such as Stan Fischler.
You make some good points, there Paul. But Tom's generally on the mark. What you're doing is looking at 19th Century events with a 20th Century camera lens. It gives you a distorted image. If you put the events in their appropriate context, you get a situation pretty close to what Tom describes.
For example:
"Do you imaginethe families of
the killed so degraded that they didn't seek out their missing and dead and have services and funerals?"
In the 19th Century? You can bet that happened. Especially to black families, and other politically disenfranchised people. Especially when authorities did not always act with the standard of care they do now (and evn now you'll see a problem on occasion).
Have you studied prior centuries much, Ron? The 19th century was not the dark ages.** You would be amazed at the records that were kept. To mention "disenfrancised people" specifically, we can tell, for example, what occupations formerly enslaved people in Kings County took up years and decades after emanicipation in the same time frame as those Draft Riots.
Let's not bolster bad history with the usual excuses. If one claims "1200" or "3000" or whatever, when the record shows 120, we need more than a guess. In fact, a 1200 number reeks of a political gambit, since it is almost exactly 10 times the proven death toll of 118 or 119. It makes me think that someone said "that figure is to low, so I'll bet there are 10 dead for every one we know about."
**In fact, even in the dark ages, record keeping and law making was surprisingly modernl, albeit without the aid of computers.
"The 19th century was not the dark ages.** You would be amazed at the
records that were kept. To mention "disenfrancised people" specifically, we can tell, for example, what occupations formerly
enslaved people in Kings County took up years and decades after emanicipation in the same time frame as those Draft Riots."
In general, yes. In some specific cases, no. You're misapplying the general case to an instance where the opportunity to keep records was severely curtailed.
I think we're doing some horse-beating here (I'm only claiming ONE horse ;-) ) I understand that you feel this is a special case, but it doesn't forgive the necessity to back up a figure. In the heat of the battle (and it was a battle) it would have been hard to find out how many were killed and wounded, but bodies turn up afterwards. Maybe we could use yet another commission to try to accurately assess the truth but I'm not certain if this is worth the effort. Some people will continue to believe what they want no matter who "blue-ribbon" the commission.
Of course, we will probably have a movie which will become the popualr "truth" of the Draft Riots. When I was growing up, the line was: "It HAS to be true, I read it in print." Now it's: "It HAS tobe true, I saw the movie." ;-)
I'll give you a different reason (other than historical accuracy, which is an end in itself) not to accept embellished claims--it leads to a cynicism which covers greater atrocities. When Hitler began murdering people in concentration camps and reports began to filter out, many people flatly disbelieved it. Why? Because in World War I there were so many lurid claims ("German troops kill and eat babies" kind of stuff) that people just dismissed stories of Nazi brutality as the same-old same-old war propoganda.
Anyway. You may have the last word if you wish. We've both set out our reasoning.
"Maybe we could use yet another
commission to try to accurately assess the truth but I'm not certain if this is worth the effort. Some people will continue to
believe what they want no matter who "blue-ribbon" the commission."
So true, so true...
"Of course, we will probably have a movie which will become the popualr "truth" of the Draft Riots. When I was growing up,
the line was: "It HAS to be true, I read it in print." Now it's: "It HAS tobe true, I saw the movie." ;-) "
And everybody knows the one guy, historically, who saw the truth was Mel Gibson! :0)
"When Hitler began murdering people in concentration camps and reports
began to filter out, many people flatly disbelieved it. Why? Because in World War I there were so many lurid claims ("German
troops kill and eat babies" kind of stuff) that people just dismissed stories of Nazi brutality as the same-old same-old war
propoganda."
Don't forget, though, that this was laid on top of an ambient anti-Semitism and isolationist preference in 1930's America.
"Anyway. You may have the last word if you wish. We've both set out our reasoning."
I never worry about who has the last word. It means I have to go find another debate somewhere...:0)
"Anyway. You may have the last word if you wish. We've both set out our reasoning."
I never worry about who has the last word. It means I have to go find another debate somewhere...:0)
Best point yet! It also makes me a liar, because now I'm still talking. "Is, to dispute well, Logic's chiefest end?" asked Marlowe in Faust. But if some fellow in red underwear promises you a better debate in exchange for a useless little soul, maybe we should think twice? ;-)
"When Hitler began murdering people in concentration camps and reports began to filter out, many people flatly disbelieved it. Why? Because in World War I there were so many lurid claims ("German troops kill and eat babies" kind of stuff) that people just dismissed stories of Nazi brutality as the same-old same-old war propoganda."
Don't forget, though, that this was laid on top of an ambient anti-Semitism and isolationist preference in 1930's America.
Well said, but the point still stands that the blatant propoganda of earlier wars made it easier for the anti-Semite to convince the impartial that true horror was just political talk.
You're not a liar anymore.
:0)
("Of course, we will probably have a movie which will become the popualr "truth" of the Draft Riots. When I was growing
up, the line was: "It HAS to be true, I read it in print." Now it's: "It HAS tobe true, I saw the movie.")
The movie "Gangs of New York" is coming out soon, and I'm looking forward to it. Perhaps Scorcese will settle the death toll issue.
On-topic to this forum, remember the ridiculous stories surrounding the Malbone Street wreck ("one third of the dead electrocuted by re-energized third rail"; "many dead illegal immigrants who weren't reported", etc.) repeated by tabloids and, eventually some of the stories by respected writers such as Stan Fischler.
Untrue, yes, ridiculous, no. Both of the examples you cite were quite plausible. Controllers at the BMT powerhouse did restore third-rail power a minute or two after the crash, and the great wave of immigration that began in the late 1800's was still in full swing. The lack of electrocution deaths probably is attributable to the fact that the power resumption occured too quickly after the wreck for any of the survivors to have climbed down to the tracks. There weren't any unreported deaths of illegal immigrants (to the extent it's possible to prove a negative) because the sections of Brooklyn toward which the train was heading were mainly middle-class areas with relatively few immigrants.
You bring up another point. If a b***s*** argument is plausible, it gets wide acceptance, even if it savages the truth.
And as to "unreported illegal immigrants." Immigrants leave bodies when they die, too, whether they're legal or illegal. And yes, you can spend endless hours trying to prove a negative.
Wasn't the Malbone street wreck before 1926? That was when Congress passed a restrictive immigration bill and illegal immigration became a big thing. Before that, most healthy people were accepted.
Wasn't the Malbone street wreck before 1926? That was when Congress passed a restrictive immigration bill and illegal immigration became a big thing. Before that, most healthy people were accepted.
Malbone Street was November 1, 1918.
According to the list in Brian Cudahy's book, only a relative handful of the 93 people who died in the wreck were foreign-born.
The immigration law was changed in 1924.
>>> Humans are recod keeping animals. <<<
This may be true, but they often choose which records they keep rather carefully. The New York Times, which had extensive reports of the riots, including eyewitness reports of specific deaths, published no total of those killed. I suggest that is because at that time, right after the event there was no effective central registry of those killed, and therefore no firm total.
In more modern times it has been difficult to get a firm total of deaths in various instances such as:
The number of "disappeared" before democracy replaced the military in Argentina.
The number of students killed in Mexico City just prior to the 1968 Olympics.
The number of Viet Cong killed in Viet Nam (the body count that showed we were winning).
The number of Cambodians who died during the Pol Pot regime.
The number of Panamanians killed during the American invasion to arrest Noriega.
The number of Iraqis killed during Desert Storm
The number killed due to "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkans.
>>> Do you imaginethe families of the killed so degraded that they didn't seek out their missing and dead and have services and funerals? <<<
I never suggested that the families would not seek out their missing and dead, just that they would not necessarily make any report that they died as a result of the riot, and the authorities were not interested in increasing the riot death toll. Those who were burned out may have buried their dead and moved away, or left with injured who died elsewhere.
Tom
To buttress your point you've pointed to many well-known infamous dictatorships. If you feel that the U.S. is in this league, than there's no point in accepting any figure at all, is there?
>>> If you feel that the U.S. is in this league <<<
Don't look now, but three of the seven examples involved the United States. It was the United States who inflated the body count in Viet Nam to prove to Americans at home that there was a "light at the end of the tunnel" and we were winning the war. It was the United States that suppressed the number of Panamanian casualties when it did not look good that we would kill quite a few innocent Latinos in another country to arrest a "drug kingpin" (who would not let his country be used as a staging area to overthrow the Nicaraguan government). It was the United States that insisted that they did not count enemy casualties in Desert Storm, although keeping track of enemy casualties is always important intelligence information for any military force in combat.
Are you absolutely sure the American government, locked in a struggle for its existence as it was in 1863, wouldn't fudge any figures to hide the extent of the insurrection against authority in New York?
Tom
To restate: if you feel these conditions apply there is no point in accepting any figures at all. A figure of 1200 or 3000 or 9276 is as bogus as a figure of 119.
>>> if you feel these conditions apply there is no point in accepting any figures at all. A figure
of 1200 or 3000 or 9276 is as bogus as a figure of 119. <<<
It is not a question of bogus figures as much as it is whether historians may legitimately make estimates when exact figures are unavailable. As with anything in life, some do it better than others.
An everyday example is the estimation of the crowd size at parades. If a twenty-five reporters interviewed a total of 500 spectators at the most recent Rose Parade and each of them were able to give the names of 9 other people they knew for certain were in attendance, I would have no confidence in a total figure of 5,000 as the number who watched the parade in person. Some future historian trying to estimate the total attendance at this Rose Parade might look at several aerial photos taken at intervals along the route, and count the individuals in each photo and make an estimate of the total in attendance. Although there may be errors in this method, I believe it would provide a number closer to the actual one than saying the total number is only those who can be counted in the available photographs, or that the total in attendance were those whose names were recorded as being there.
Tom
If a twenty-five reporters interviewed a total of 500 spectators at the most recent Rose Parade and each of them were able to give the names of 9 other people they knew for certain were in attendance, I would have no confidence in a total figure of 5,000 as the number who watched the parade in person. Some future historian trying to estimate the total attendance at this Rose Parade might look at several aerial photos taken at intervals along the route, and count the individuals in each photo and make an estimate of the total in attendance. Although there may be errors in this method, I believe it would provide a number closer to the actual one than saying the total number is only those who can be counted in the available photographs, or that the total in attendance were those whose names were recorded as being there.
I once read that if the number of people in the Rose Bowl Parade's "official" estimates actually showed up, in the space availabe for spectators, payloaders and dump trucks would be needed to remove the thousands of suffocated corpses.
>>> if the number of people in the Rose Bowl Parade's "official" estimates actually showed up, in the space availabe for spectators <<<
I was thinking of that when I used the Rose Parade as an example. There was a recent news feature which pointed out that a perennial news story each New Year's Day starts out with "More than a million people lined Colorado Boulevard to watch the xxth annual Tournament of Roses Parade ..." For a million people to line the route there would have to be the equivalent of 10,000 people per block for 100 blocks. The parade route is far shorter than 100 blocks, and of course there are not 10,000 people in each and every block. The one million figure was some Chamber of Commerce puffing which no one in the media looked at critically. The Pasadena Police estimate the crowd at about 2-300,000.
Tom
You're being too hard on the Chamber of Commerce, Tom.
The Chamber of Commerce is at least as smart about its numbers as the kid who just got a new bike and says, "Oh boy. I like the bike so much I just rode around the block about a billion times."
:0)
The Chamber of Commerce is at least as smart about its numbers as the kid who just got a new bike and says, "Oh boy. I like the bike so much I just rode around the block about a
billion times."
In the words of Mr. Salaam Allah... lol
"It was the United States that insisted that they did not count enemy
casualties in Desert Storm, although keeping track of enemy casualties is always important intelligence information for any
military force in combat."
In the context of the particular Subtalk thread, that example is a good one.
Bear in mind though: The US military in Desert Storm kept track of opposing military strength as the campaign continued. They kept track of, and reported, the number of tanks destroyed, number of bunkers destroyed, and % of targets hit. This information was released to anybody who wanted it. There were also plenty of estimates of enemy casualties.
What they did not do was repeat the mistake made in Vietnam - that of equating enemy dead with success on the battlefield. They also did not want to repeat the mistake of extensively publicizing lots of casualty figures - because these serve little purpose.
The reduction of civilian casualties in Desert Storm, compared to previous large-scale conflicts, was pretty clear. This progress has continued, culminating in the recent Afghanistan campaign.
How do we know that 10,000 U.S. troops weren't killed in Desert Storm? The deaths were covered up ny military commanders. Individual families were told that their loved ones were killed in traffic accidents in a different part of the world. No figures were compiled and the different families never knew or had reason to compare notes with each other. The morning reports that report personnel in different units were embargoed. If the need ever arose, they would have been altered backwards to cover up the missing soldiers.
I can make up stories, too. I can guarantee you if I put that out on the internet, some significant number of people would believe it, and quote it.
Who knows, it might even end up in a book...
And the next step after that is for the black helicopters of the New World Order to land at South Ferry and tell the MTA to cancel the IRT rebuild...
If you wanted to play instead of having a serious discussion you should have said so.
You consider that play?
My example is as plausable as many others, except that I'm making it obvious it's not the truth. I know how some of these things work and could write up a theory much more convincing, but I prefer that people trust that I believe what I say...
3,000 dead in the New York Draft Riots? That was a horrible week in the City, but what point are you trying to make by coming up with that fanciful figure? The firmest figure I can come up with is from americanhistory.about.com, which says:
"Although the initial reports of more than 1,200 deaths proved exaggerated, as many as 118 people may have been killed before exhausted Union troops, marching straight from their victory at Gettysburg, put down the riot"
I must admit the number 3000 is what I remmebered from college, which is a very long time ago. Either I was totally making it up, or else historians have done some more careful checking since then.
If you are interested in more info on the NYC Draft Riots, I believe a book currently available called something like 'The Gangs of New York' (saw it a couple of weeks ago in Barnes & Noble). In it is a sizable section on the Draft Riots, since the author indicates that the rioting was paritially based on the Irish gang population in Manhattan at the time and 'snowballed' from their initial actions.
The books' jacket claims that a forthcoming Francis Ford Coppola movie will be heavily based on it.
BMTman
Doug, mentioning the gangs reminds us that New York City in general wasn't a very peaceable place in the 19th Century.
After all, we had 23 dead in the Astor Place Riot in 1849. What were the rioting about? They didn't like an unpopular Brit playing in Macbeth over a prominent American Shakespearan.
Good point.
And like I told Kev 'SelkirkTMO': I'd be rioting in the streets if Drakes discontinued making 'Ring Dings'...
Chat with you later...
;-D
The Ring Ding Riots of 1839 are reputed to have left whole neighborhoods devastated, but a conspiracy of silence has expunged all records.
Obviously, in my former life I was the conspirator who burned all the evidence....;-D
Burned RING-DINGS, that's all we need...
Peace,
ANDEE
On my lunch hour I went over to the nearest B&N and got the precise info on the book called 'The Gangs of New York'. It is written by Herbert Ashbury and the Draft Riots are covered in Chapter 7 and continue into Chapter 8. It is the most I've seen written on the subject of the Draft Riots.
BTW, I was wrong about the movie info. The filmed version of "The Gangs of New York" will star Leonardo DiCaprio and be directed by Martin Scorsese (occuring to the jacket blub).
BMTman
Does it really matter which event had the distinction of being the worst?
>>>
The occupation of Washington, D.C. and the burning of the capitol by an invading foreign army
during the War of 1812, and the Battles of Bull Run (Manassas) during the Civil War can be
considered worse days in U.S. history than September 11th. <<<
They could. 9/11/01's magnitude was amplified by its worldwide broadcast on television. The world knew of the attacks within minutes after they occurred...
We can't just play a numbers and magnitude of destruction game. If we were to do that, we'd only have to look at Hitler's murder of the Jews or Hutu's murder of Tutsis, or the Rape of Nanking, not to mention Pol Pot. In that case we'd have to shrug off an event that killed "only" 3,000 people.
September 11 is not exactly comparable to any other event. It was a massive attack on civilians and civilian tragets in a peacetime sneek attack on the soil of the United States. It stands alone, and may it always be so.
"This is true, but that should be done with an appropriate memorial, not leaving the site untouched. What would London and Hiroshima (both cities that took bigger hits than New York) look like today if the only way to remind people in the future of what happened there were to leave those sites undisturbed?"
I didn't think to use those examples, Tom, so thank for posting that. Yes, excellent logic.
This is true, but that should be done with an appropriate memorial, not leaving the site untouched. What would London and Hiroshima (both cities that took bigger hits than New York) look like today if the only way to remind people in the future of what happened there were to leave those sites undisturbed?
Many, many people want one of the remaining Dresden-like sections of facade incorporated into whatever memorial is built. At least one of the sections has been saved for such purposes.
That's a reasonable request.
Although I believe a lot of people feel a need to go to the site, It is a little strange to have a Disney World type line with Disney "Fast Passes" to get to front of the line. This is far from a theme park.
They have just arrived behind the usual trio of diesel locomotives.
-Stef
Yes they passed by me at Intervale Ave. I was in 6311 at the time.
I saw them @ Lindon Yard on Saturday Night. I had a work train out of there. I did not have time to posted it those.
Robert
Mike,
You think being a Conductor would get you into Linden Yard? I see a great photo opportunity here, if you knew when the cars were coming. Perhaps riding the train to the East would be too much to ask for.
-Stef
I don't see why not. The peopleat the gate only look to if the pass and to title on the pass. I would guess that there might be at least one train there during the week. But I am not shore on what days. I been to Linden Yard on different days of the weeks and only saw them this one time.
Robert
The TWU is circulating a petition in which the union is advocating that brand new (extra extra) employees be able to select via pick rights & seniority their days off, tour of duty, and one specific line to work on exclusively.
Let me tell you my opinion on the above:
Should extra extra employees be able to select a specific tour of duty in seniority order: Yes.
Should extra extra employees be able to select their days off (RDO's) in seniority order: Yes.
Should extra extra employees be able to select one specific line that they would be able to work on exclusively for the length of the pick in seniority order: ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Why? Because restricting an employee to one specific line can have lasting negative effects on new T/O's. Yes, C/R's would also be affected, but to a far lesser extent than T/O's.
My reasons:
1) When an employee is extra extra, it gives him/her experience by being placed in jobs throughout the division. This is how you learn the job, by operating all different kinds of equipment, studying the terrain of the line, knowing which stations are "fast" stations so you can begin the braking sequence earlier, knowing where certain signals are that can pop up out of sight and trip you, etc. By having a T/O work one specific line, it denies the T/O the needed experience on all the different types of equipment/lines that the employee will need later on. The union complains that new T/O's aren't allowed to work in most yards, then they come out with this. DO YOU THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE? The quality of the workforce should not be diluted.
2) Picking a specific line doesn't mean that it will be better for the T/O. Right now, a typical extra extra employee can expect to start within a fairly decent distance from their residence about 3 times a week. Say for example I live by the Bay 50th Street station on the W line. Currently, I would get assignments on the W, Q, F, M, N out of South Brooklyn. Under the union's plan, I would have to select one specific line. So I take the W. If there isn't any available assignments on the Stillwell end of the line, or if they are all gone by the time they assign me, then I'd be forced to work out of Astoria. So not only would I be denied the experience of working different lines, but I'd STILL have to travel a long way to work.
3) What happens say if a T/O who is brand new picks the A line since he/she lives in Far Rockaway and remains there for the next 2 years while extra extra. The time comes when the T/O must pick a job, and the A line is all picked out (not a far fetched fact). Now the T/O not only must pick jobs on lines that he/she has never worked before outside one day of training, but he/she will be dealing with equipment that the T/O has absolutely no experience with. Could you imagine what could happen? Hitting a home ball? Overrunning a station? Worse?
4) By having a T/O assigned to one specific line, it can create problems when a different line becomes short-staffed. A T/O is extra board at Stillwell and has picked the W line. A job becomes open on the Q. According to the union person who was petitioning signatures, the extra extra person on the W would be ineligible to work the Q job. She says "Oh well, you'll just have to ABD (abandon) the interval". In other words, inconvenience the passengers. Nonsense, the Dispatcher's job is to avoid ABD's when possible. So the Dispatcher would just order a person who's already made his/her alloted trips and is now on WAA time to make an additional trip if he couldn't find another T/O for overtime. So the senior person would be inconvenienced on behalf of the junior person. Or on the other side, a person is extra board on the E at 12 noon. A job opens on the J at 1 pm, but he's ineligible. So instead of picking up the J job, he gets an E job that opens up at 5 pm. Not everyone wants a 13 to 14 hour day. I know that I don't.
Do you see why I did not sign the petition? If the union takes out the picked line section, then I'm all for it, but if the union presents the petition as is, the the TA should do the right thing with it and put it in the trash.
I heard of this petition and have other questions.
1) Since the XXL guarantees 12 hours off between tours, what will happen to those employees's rest periods?
2) Road extra employees have first right to open road jobs in the CBA. Will these "reclassified XXLs" bump those who picked lines and XLs to the yard? Since they won't allow the newbies to work the yards, will that force the issue of yard work not at road pay again?
3) When an extra extra person moves up enough to be able to pick a real road extra job, will they have the same power to stay on that line, especially when the road Extra person person can be shipped to another part of the division anyway as part of the existing contract?
I feel you did right by not signing it. Encourage others to do the same. I'm sure the union has other things in mind for our upcoming contract, and doesn't need petitions to tell them what to do.
The unions position is already written in stone. CI Peter
I am not very familiar with RTO workrules but it seems to me that it would also make it harder for a senior man to get a day off - if the pool of eligable extra-extra train operators were exhausted. Just sounds like one of those things the TWU wants just for the sake of making it harder to manage without any real benifit to the majority of the rank and file.
I don't believe the TWU sanctioned this. Perhaps we have a new New Directions forming now. I don't see the union demanding a plan that would put junior persons in a position of higher seniority that those who pick. The whole thing sounds like we have a newbie wout there who thinks they can do a better job than the incumbnants. If we really wanted to utilize XXL perons on a regular LINE, we would attempt to bring back picked Extra Board Jobs in the next contract. That would sop up the XXLs by creating new jobs on the rosters. The A line brought that back on the work program a couple of years ago, and those jobs work anywhere, including the A line. In the 1960s, there were picked Board jobs on every tour at every terminal, limited to work on that line. Featherbedding doesn't exist anymore at that rate as another poster stated.
There is already several new new directions forming.
The CI boys are one. Some of the others were never for Roger they were against James.
And yes a few of the Off The Street (OTS) T/O's.
The biggest issues there are health benefits for registerd domestic partners. More dues for a non-profit/not for profit to help out members with problems. Political activism more focus on transit related issues. More cooperation with management WITH the savings being split 50/50 and more concentration on work rules.
Really nothing will happen until the next contract is seen.
This is the first I've heard of this. I wonder if this petition was actually sanctioned by the union hierarchy, or if it was started by some disgruntled rookie who does not want to pay his dues?
From the literature which was distributed, it certainly appears to be sanctioned by TWU 100.
This is can't lose for the union. This is their hook for saying they are helping the off the street people and they hope that the probies and the TA buy it. They hope the TA will buy it to keep the OTS program going. But this is really to help the XL people.
By making it a petition they can cover their asses if the members hold a resentment toward the new people or don't care.
This will fail, no one is really pushing for signatures I saw it by accident.
BTW all three of my classmates that I have talked to are NOT signing it.
From TWU experience from thirty years ago, your analysis seems closest to realityville. Back in my day, there was a splinter group that I lashed up with called "Rank and File" which consisted mostly of new hires - black and hispanic that challenged the old line over safety rules, sloppy operation and bad equipment repeatedly getting sent out, opposition to split shifting and all the gnarlies that came with extra. Dunno how it all turned out, but the two groups and their constant bickering pretty much turned the TWU into the mush it is today. Another time when a lot of people were retiring and kids like me were getting hired up much to the anger of folks who had been on the railroad a long time and OWNED it. We all got tired of the routine screwings. I'd bet there's some similar behaviors going on and this is the "regulars" trying to absorb the dissenters by feigning interest.
This petition hurts the XXL people as much as it helps.
There is a D and an L person on the midnights so if those lines can support an XL person daily at those hours, any line can.
Also this would not mean that every XXL person would get to pick some would get North or south or more intelligently Cont to cover 179, PA and Cont or daytimes 168 to cover 207, Bedford, 168 and 145.
There is a statistical predictibility to all this it just would be nice if the let some of the staff benefit. For example there are ALWAYS enough open Brooklyn jobs so that no one there should have to leave the boro ditto the Bronx.
The downside is this would throw us out of the yard and switching jobs which is why the union would get involved. The XL and XL work train people signed petition about 1-2 months ago to throw us out of the yards so they would not fall to road jobs and the board.
That said it would likely help me. Since we met face to face, things have gotten much worse for me. At this point I get my home area once a week and only on the board. I have no car and think it is nuts that I would have to get one to work for mass transit.
I get ping-ponged on my shift so that at least 2-3 days I get home have 1/2 and hour sleep wake up have 1/2 an hour then have to got to work. Today is a treat I did have a few hours to myself and even got to take a bath instead of a shower which was nice as I had 5 uninterupted hours of cab time yesterday.
No, it's you old farts being two faced. It's really the union. See other message as to why.
"So the Dispatcher would just order a person who's already made his/her alloted trips and is now on WAA time to make an additional trip if he couldn't find another T/O for overtime"
Union reps are all about increasing the total payroll thus incresing union dues(line thier pockets)This is not in the interest of the working man or the consummers utilizing TA services.
Hey, r-142 if you are such a college educated hotshot, how come ALL of your posts have spelling or grammatical errors.
Grew up in the age of spell checkers
More of an engineering guy anyway
Thus the interest in the subways
Been facinated since a littel boy back in the 80's
Always in front of the rail fan window
You are taking the quote out of context. If you read the whole statement, you would see Zman was using the example of an employee being ordered to make an extra trip on a line at Stillwell which does not have an extra board guy siting around doing nothing, whereas another line does have a guy sitting around, yet he would not be required to do the trip because of the new rule. Is that productive? Of course not! You are paying somebody overtime while you have an extra board guy availiable for another line!
Am I hearing the union members themselves complaining about featherbedding?
The anal-sphicters-in-charge tend to be real anal-sphincters. They like to whip those under them with their loud-labia or teeny-weeny-peenies.
From my perverted point of view, I'd assemble of jury of regular subway riders to decide these questions (yank them off the train, assure them they are not gonna get fired, assure them they are not gonna suffer financial problems, and let the cop who tells them this visit their employer and put the fear of Railfan in them. And yeah, this is how the subways should work: by the pleasure of the riders!
A lot to do with it is simply that you want to go home at the scheduled end of your shift and not be stuck making an extra unscheduled trip. I'll never forget the Saturday when I was on my last trip to Stillwell D and I got turned at Brightom Beach on the last half trip, got sent back uptown to do another trip and had to work another 4 hours. My wife was going thru a very difficult pregnancy at the time and this one day was feeling decent and made a nice roast beef dinner which she ate by herself while I got home 4 hours late.
I agree with this post.
Even if you pick a line (something the TA would never go for) you are still subject to being yanked elsewhere just like XL people.
This is a two fold attempt to pretend that New Directions is trying to help us (which they never have before) and help the XL and work train XL people stay off the road and the board and in the yards and switching.
>>>>>>>>>>Even if you pick a line (something the TA would never go for) you are still subject to being yanked elsewhere just like XL people
There are instances where other lines cannot touch you. Sometimes, you'll see a job on the assignment sheets that say: "Extra Board 6 Line- Do Not Pull". In other words, you would be property of the 6 line for the day. For one person to be subjected to that is one thing though. Obviously, the TA won't go for it, but it does make me wonder where the union is truly heading if indeed this was union sanctioned, as it "appeared" to be.
As it turns out is might be a give back LOL. The union filled a greivance to get the TA to issue more XL tricks as per contract. The board is supposed to be only for new employees not in the system at the time the pick list comes out PER CONTRACT.
That petition is WORSE for most XXL people than the current set up. I think me and the guys at the top of the XXL would be the only ones to benefit.
>>>>>>>>I think me and the guys at the top of the XXL would be the only ones to benefit.
Au contraire, it would be worse for you. With the union's plan, you'd still be behind the T/O's with seniority, and your RDO's would be T/W or W/T and no better than that. Even though it didn't work out for you this pick, XX's now see RDO's like S/S or S/M. Apparently under this plan, there would be 0% of that happening since the T/O's with more seniority would snap it up since the extra list would have slots added on instead of having a separate XX list. And AM's could be much tougher to get too.
This plan in no way benefits the XX guys. Leave it as it is.
Now you mean the contract or the petition?
With the new pick I have had the worst assignments and the worst locations. I really can't see how it can get worse.
North or Queens works for me I live in the South. If I get an N it's a KHhy N. If they are nice and give a Queens job it's out of STL.
They gave the guys in classes after me AMs, S/S and Queens/North jobs.
With the petition plan I would gladly give up the yard and switching to get rid of my commutes which only makes sense becasue I am getting shafted. Under expanding the XL I'd have 200+ people behind me with jobs, there is no way I could not pick Queens.
Your assumption in my case is wrong, I do not get a decent location 3 times a week. I was assigned road jobs locally 3 times this past month. I live near 6 lines and got 3 local jobs in one month. No one I have talked to has done that poorly.
Wannabe, do this today:
Write a G2 addressed to the Div. B Crew Assignment Co-ordinator, or ask to speak to the person on the phone, or for better shock value, go there in person and tell him/her your situation. It's already bad for you, and could not get worse. I mean, you can't go further than Stillwell now can you? The worst thing that could happen is that the trend continues, you've got NOTHING to lose.
Either that, or do nothing and keep travelling downtown.
Also, did you enter any vacancy bids? A lot of times, the PM and MID RDO relief jobs go unbid.
Lastly if nothing works, put in a request to pick a job in the A division. You might get lucky and get the 7 line. Or nothing will suit you, you pick nothing and you'll stay in the B div. Then again, all the jobs may be gone, but it's obvious that you've got to go to Plan B.
I did try it. At the time I was getting the Bronx/207 5 days a week.
Now I get Brooklyn. LOL.
In fairness, I have had 2 Manhattan GO jobs and they have not given me the board outside of Queens hence my few breaks.
The last time I went down there, I got pingponged 9pm, 1pm, 9pm until I booked off. I could not sleep after that.
I will try once more but there is a reason I was asking about PATH jobs.
You have to pay your dues and bide your time. I've been a motorman for 18 years and I've been through it, too. One day extra board at 2AM picking up an AM job, the next day at 11PM and follow that up with a 3AM road job the following day. None of the reports near home. It does not last forever. This is the nature of the job. We were warned about this in school car. They told us suck it up or find another job.
I have not seen the petition you are talking about on the 7 line but if it makes it over here I would tear it up and throw it in the garbage. Your best interest are not being served by working exclusively on one line while you are new. The only way to learn the system (and your job) is by operating all lines and yards and all types of equipment at various hours. This way you get to experience differen G.O.'s and moves that can be made, etc. You will become a more savy motorman instead of someone who becomes married to one line and afraid to work anyplace else.
It's not fair for you to call anyone an old fart. They paid their dues and now there seeing the benefits of seniority. Now it's your turn.
It IS unfair to assume it was someone new. It IS an official union thing. It IS a cynical attempt to gain loyalty after they did some pretty messed up things to us.
Did I say I was in favor of this? I said I would benefit and that is only because I am getting an unusally short end of the stick. Do talk to the other new T/Os?
BTW 11PM and 3 AM and far from home would be an IMPROVEMENT for me. Try 1pm, 9pm, 5pm ish, 1pmish, 9pm
Just curious but did you submit a G2 to the crew office for a change of tour. It was my experience that there was always a need for people to work midnights.
I have sent G2's to wallpaper a house before and after the pick. They changed my shift/rdo to my very last choice. Midnights T/W was near the top of my list. My all time favorite experince was when my mom was coming out of the hospital and I requested an early starting job for one day so I could pick her up, of course I got a late penalty job.
I had a little problem on the road. I told them it was not my fault, please drop it, they said sure it is. I said please really just drop this and I convinced one TSS that I was OK but no one else was buying.
I found out later that I was not taken OOS immediately was probably because no one was around.
The way I proved it was not obvious at first but when I did is sort of banged in something they did (control) that was UNSAFE, I suggested something that would get us both of the hook and that was not appreciated. Then they said I was guilty of something else and I had to bang in something else (not a person but something else unsafe that was going on). For whatever reason I was right or I am off the street the whole thing dropped. And the next assignment I got 3 days later involved another boro and a shift change. Bad luck, coincidence, who cares.
So besides from them having the nickname sCrew office and my little trouble it has also been suggested privately that someone here banged me in for saying less than flattering things about things I have seen.
If you put enough of my posts together or had access to TA internal stuff you would know who I am.
It is extra tiring but I am starting to expect it. Also I worked 90+ hours a week at a previous job so it is more getting used to the nature of being a T/O then the hours. I bought a 2000 pg history of Islam and a 800 page history of India and am using my time to imporve my mind.
I do disagree that being thrown lots of curves makes a better T/O. All of the oldtimers insist it was the yard time that made them good T/Os not the road time. They could refine their operating style where no passengers were around and they got to handle B/O equipment without 1000 onlookers.
I was told too bad very politely by Ms. Crawford of the crew office. She seems very patient but she likely gets this a lot.
I did get to banish any paranoid notions. Apparently the way they crew Brooklyn is where my name comes up in the alphabet and that is how they assign me.
The reality is all you are to the crew office is a pass number. When I was new (all right, 20 years ago!), the BMT and the IND had seperate crew dispatchers working with paper and pencil. They knew you and cared where you lived and tried their best to keep you close to home. If you lived uptown, they tried to keep you uptown, and so forth. Today with their computer, all they do is put a pass number into open job number. The most demoralising thing I see the crew office do to people who work off the list, and this applies to regular extra list as well, on your first day back after your RDO they give you a job with the earliest possible starting time for your shift, and on your last day, getaway day, they give you the latest possible reporting time they can find. You feel like you lost one of your RDO's! I've seen where regular extra list guys with S/M off, get a GO road job on a Saturday starting at 9 PM! Perhaps you will pick a job for the spring, lousy as it is, but at least you may have an idea of a window of working hours. Hang in there!
This is the first week in a whiles where I did not get board on my monday or friday. You are so right about early monday jobs and late friday one.
Besides the petition you will see in your next union paprer that the union is challanging the XXL contractually. The XXL is supposed to be for people hired between picks not for 1.5 years+.
A lot of retiremnets last pick so if it holds i pick if it was a spike I have to last unitl the December/January pick.
It's tough and true and we have to pay our dues and old farts get the extras and Tony in Shape Up says the barns are all alike...the best ones are the closest to you. Problem in the system is that the hard working and responsible are on the same footing as the stupid and slackers. TA acknowledges timeliness and attendance...not brains and skill. We are the NEW DIRECTION of TA...RTO, CED, CTA. We are probationary employees and know how good this work is. We will pay our dues and be the best TA could ever get BUT we have all been warned NOT to be victims of the 'old farts' and their stupid stunts. OUR employment is of great value and we newbies have all made sacrifices for this new work. Nuff said. CI Peter
Apperently, I was already entitled contractually to pick shift and RDO, the union just never asked the TA to enforce it.
The petition is in the Woodlawn Crew room. No one has signed it as of 10PM Monday. There where more jokes about it then anything.
When I go to Dyre I'll find out more because I run into 3 active Union Reps. One of the two is a New Directions rep.
Thats Right! If the Union does get its way the sweet Extra Extra slots would be for anyone to pick. I don't see how being Extra Extra on one line is going to work. If that does happen who do you think will pick the No.5 Line AM Extra S/S off? I know I would!
Then the New guys will just fall under the Extra List ( XL ) where they can go anywhere in the section or left over jobs with T/W that no one in there right mind would pick.
Interesting assessment, Z. You bring up some interesting points.
Didn't they have something like this a pick or two ago? They had pick jobs were people sat on the board at a given location until a job came up either there or someplace else. Is this what the union wants to give the extra extras?
I just saw the notice from the TWU in the crew room at 168th Street on Tuesday. I asked a few of the crews about it and the sentiment seems to be similar to yours. Not everybody is happy about it.
I was undecided on it, but you've definitely given me some food for thought.
Actually it is in the contract.
I have talked to some of the higher-ups in the union and it turns out that what the union's goal is for every T/O and C/R to be able to pick a job. In other words, if they are 2483 T/O's in the system, then the union wants 2483 jobs created. It is in the contract so the union has a shot to win the grievance.
When I had brought up my objections, the union said that that was not what they had been looking for, they don't want to cause any problems. All they want is for an XX guy to be able to select an assignment instead of being run willy-nilly all over the place as is currently done.
In light of this, I now support it and will sign the petition. The union flyer I guess could have been written a little differently.
TWU has always been their own worst enemy in worrying about organizational issues at the meetings instead of dispensing the meat to the membership. THANKS for digging the meat out of that calzone! I'm sure active members will appreciate your efforts there. Pity they couldn't put it THAT straightforward in a leaflet ...
They have another leafet with the info.
But this is more to help the XL people and that is why they are pursuing it. Some of my classmates have SS ams.
The upshot whill be more vacancy bids by the end of the pick there is just craziness.
Wow ... I *do* agree that everybody should have a job number - sitting on the bleechers can get tired fast. Even back in MY days as a rookie, there WAS a pick for every pass number - it's just that many of those were split-shifters and half the day as WAA ... layups, diversions and gap fill ... at least you got to sit in a cab pulling your chain instead of doing it on a wooden bench. :)
My job will be XL but at least it won't be the south every day. I have enough people behind me for that and no 3 against the wall to Far Rock.
And I can get back my beloved midnights.
Heh. It *is* quieter then and a whole lot less to pull air over. :)
Glad to hear you got off the floor so fast!
Well in theory I am off in practice I am at the very bottom.
Soon a fresh school car will ABD on the platform and you'll be moving up. It does chew the biscuit in the bottom of the barrel. That "XL" and "XXL" thing was always intended as a spot for those who JUST came in before they got a pick. And amusingly, back in my day there were more JOBS than there were people picking them which meant the remainder would be broken off into "day jobs" and picked as overtime. Wonder what happened?
>>>Some of my classmates have SS ams. <<<
What is that?
Peace,
ANDEE
Working an AM shift with Sunday/Saturday off.
>>> All they want is for an XX guy to be able to select an assignment instead of being run willy-nilly all over the place as is currently done. In light of this, I now support it and will sign the petition <<<
But this is the very thing that you said was bad previously. You said that it was necessary to have the new guys run willy-nilly all over the place in order to properly learn the job with different operating conditions throughout the system. What changed?
Tom
I felt riding the subway today, so I went over to Dyre Avenue, and found out the train was going to Times Square, I ask the T/O he told me that the train was going to Times Square,because of track work at Wall Street on the Lexington Avenue line.Nothing was mentioned until we get to 149th. Street station, the conductor announces that the Dyre Avenue train will go down the westside, and the 2 train will go down the east side, why he waited to we get to this stop to make this annoucement, I'll never know. We traveled down the westside, some people looked suprised that a 5 train,was running, It was nice that ran down the express track, The old redbird was flying, and rocking until we got past 50th street, and the T/O slammed on his brakes for the timers, I think he wasnt used to being on the westside!!I caught the 5 train back to Dyre Avenue. The westside ride uptown was kind of weird, I saw a 3 train on the local track uptown, A R-142 2 train on the downtown track at 96 street.At 149th street Grand Concourse, we waited for a R-142 coming down through the curve from 138th street.
The conductor did not announce the change in service till 149th St. simply because if he did so at every station the doors would be held at virtually every station, with constant questions being asked. The crew wanted to be on time at 149th. The TA wants the trains on time, the crew has to explain to the dispatcher the lateness and passenger questions are not a valid excuse for lateness. The train crew does not make the rules, only complies. Sorry!
I'm sure that you must have gotten the feeling that the train wasn't going to stop or more like "Gee!, I'm glad that it stayed on the tracks."
#3 West End Jeff
As a total aside, an overheard quote at Fulton Street Manhattan on Saturday from a disgruntled #2 rider who had just been kicked off the train there:
"There was absolutely no sign about this anywhere in Brooklyn."
I don't know if this is true or if she just wasn't paying attention.
It was the latter. There were signs everywhere and platform C/Rs at Nevins. The same thing happened Sat. nite. My R142 2 train pulls into 14St-US, I made my annoucements, which Ive been doing from Franklin Ave, closed down when this lady comes running and screaming that she thought this was a regular 2 train. When I told her that annoucements were made loud and clear, her response was: "I was reading my book." End of story. I just told her to go upstairs and get the N,Q,R to Times Square to get to the west side. But when observing the platform, I also observed that she stood there looking as dumb as ever.
There were signs in Brooklyn, at least where I was waiting at Atlantic. I don't know about other stations.
I'm a bit surprised the signs at Atlantic didn't direct passengers straight to the Q.
What's the point in making such an announcement early? Anyone who saw the destination signs would have early notice, in any case.
The Redbird express was great. I rode it at the railfan window five times in the past two weeks. By the time the 2 returns to express service, I doubt it will have any Redbirds left.
West side local and express service was totally erratic. There were 2's on the express and 2's on the local. There were 3's on the express and 3's on the local. (I didn't see any 1's on the express -- north of 14, that is -- but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few.) It's amazing how haphazardly that line is run.
One T/O (not C/R) on the 5 made an excellent announcement at 149-GC. It was clear, detailed, and witty. There was only problem -- it was for the prior week's GO! Service on the 5 was the same, but service on the 4 was totally different.
I'm also trying to figure out how 1's were supposed to turn at Chambers. I had thought that, during the day, they'd be using the SB local track while 2's would be running through on the SB express track (which would explain why all 1's were running express from Chambers to 14 -- from the SB local track, the NB local track is inaccessible). In fact, many 1's were terminating on the SB express track -- in one case, a 1 was sent to the express track even though (a) the local track was empty and (b) a 2 was right behind it. (When the 2 finally arrived, it picked up the loads of three or four 1's -- apparently, this GO was used as an excuse to increase 2 headways for the weekend.) Even the 1's on the express track ran local back up to 14. If this arrangement had been planned from the start, it would have made more sense, IMO, to keep the NB local stations open but to warn passengers that alternate trains would run express.
Is there other cities beside Chicago that has a rapid transit system with grade crossings (excluding LRT)?
The 14th Street BMT Line Had a Grade Crossing Up Until 1973, At the East 105th Street Station.
Miami Metrorail has one, but it's within a set of chain-link gates (eg work property). Don't remeber if it has a gate on it or not.
Not in North America. Don't know about overseas. It occurs to me that in Germany, where they have different levels of Metro-style operations, you might have something you could consider a non-LRT rapid transit system with grade crossings.
Paul
I was surprised you did not say anything about the SIRT have grade crossings until 1969.
Phil Hom
Phil, I thought he meant current systems.
If we go into the past, we have BRT, SIRT and the H&M. I can't think of any others. Would you count rapid transit operatons of the LIRR?
Paul
I guess we can also count interurban systems too! What does the the orginal poster define as "Metro"? Midwestern systems are noted as "Rapids" (CTA,CTS). Almost everyone else has a "subway". I can think of the Muni Metro, MetroRail, and the LA Metro. But SF is a light rail system but is it a "Metro". Europe has pre-Metro systems, Light rail in tunnels that can convert to heavy rail standards.
This is a bit confusing over a 5 letter word - METRO.
Phil, I know what you mean. It's difficult to define an American system by an originally non-US term.
I took it to mean a traditional subway/el type rapid transit system, and he specifically said not light rail, so I answered on that basis. Otherwise you might have to bring in all sorts of "almosts." Like what would you do with the Liberty Bell Limiteds, which ran on the high-level third rail P&W, and went to grade crossings just north of the Norristown terminal? I know that's a stretch, but it's the stuff of loooonnnng threads. ;-)
Sort of like the Miami example, but maybe worth mentioning, I believe that there is a driveway (probably for WMATA service vehicles) that crosses over the tracks just south of the Grosvenor station on Metro's Red Line (Shady Grove leg) in DC.
It is an interesting area because from downtown (heading toward Shady Grove) the line exits very deep bored tunnels virtually directly onto an elevated structure that spans a large intersection of the Capital Beltway (I-495) and then lands back on the ground (past this so-called grade crossing) to the Grosvenor station in a very shallow cut. There is a third middle track extending into the tunnel north of the station as every other rush hour and midday train turns here for the shorter run to Silver Spring.
Los angeles there is one... & one under construction.
the long beach blue line is one ..
the pasadena gold line ( construction ) is the other ...
This is a example etc..............lol!
los angeles metro has 2
long beach blue line
Frustration is a major part of life for railroaders. There are times that I firmly believe the railroad gods and those who claim to actually being the ones who run the railroads set out on a course to see just how much frustration they can beset upon us before somebody finally goes postal and shoots up the place. This too, is very likely the reason behind the rule that prohibits employees from possessing or carrying firearms on the property unless their duties require it, such as the railroad police. It is also the biggest reason some high-ranking railroad officials have bodyguards. They are not afraid of being kidnapped by some nut group, they are afraid the help will drag them off against their wills and perform unspeakably wicked and dastardly acts of aggression and vengeance upon these folks.
It is what dreams are made of.
Now to make sure I don’t get a call from the FBI or some other government agency about such plots, let me state up front that I do not condone such activities. However, that doesn’t mean that over the years I haven’t daydreamed about it in super slow motion from 90 different camera angles as if it was something directed by the likes of Francis Ford Coppola. Remember my comments some time back about the fantasy of seeing a certain official succumbing to blunt force trauma on my office desk during my Trainmaster days?
I wouldn’t really do something like that as it is wrong for many reasons. Being a guest of the Government at a well-known "Retreat" along the Hudson River in Upstate New York is one of them. And I’ve been told that five to ten at that Kansas "Retreat" called Leavenwoth is not at all akin to the five and ten at Woolworth.
Frustration comes in many forms on the railroad. One of the biggest is the lack of useful information as to when we will actually go to work. This industry has invested 20 bazillion dollars in technology. They boast about being able to tell shippers where their cars are located in real time at any time. However, all this technology cannot seem to process information as to when I might go to work on a given day.
Here on the CNIC, we have a computer response system that can tell me where I stand in the line-up, a line up of trains that may run and suggested times these alleged trains may be called. This system is by no means to be taken as gospel. It is subject to the whims of the railroad gods as well as numerous other factors and variables. Those factors and variables may include no rested and available Conductors. No power is available to move the train. Yards are so congested that there is no hope of this train coming close to being ready at the projected time. Then there are clogged main lines and sidings that result in bad meets and excessive delays to trains enroute. And finally the always popular, "We decided not to move this train today." This one usually saved for late in the evening after hearing that it would be run all through the day and evening.
First, we’ll focus on no rested Conductors. The computer does not have the capabilities to tell me that there are no Conductors available. It does not tell me that my regular Conductor has marked off sick, personal business, personal leave, vacation day, bereavement or whatever reason they have selected in order to take the day off. It also does not tell me there are no rested Conductors available for the next eight or ten hours.
Second, the system does not tell me they have available people but no motive power handy to move the train. In an industry where we cannot move freight without power, one would think they would make a concerted effort to have sufficient motive power in position and available to move trains. But that is just what I think. Again, what do I know?
The system also doesn’t seem to update for trains enroute that have fallen behind the so-called schedule. It seems that a time goes into the system and it is then cast in concrete never to change. The system tells you that such and such train is slated to run at say, 2015 hours. It is now 2010 hours, the train is hundreds of miles away from your terminal with no possible hope of moving at the time stated, but the system does not know this and keeps reiterating its claim of 2015 hours. If the train were to really move at 2015 hours, I would have received a personal invitation from my friendly, neighborhood Crew Caller long about 1815 hours requesting the honor of my presence at the said 2015 time to play railroad for yet another day.
This dilemma is by no means restricted just to where I work. I hear these very same complaints from railroaders I know all over the country that work for all the major players as well as some of the smaller operations. This situation is by no means unique or peculiar to any one railroad. And contrary to what we are constantly being told, it doesn’t seem to be getting any better. In some cases, it actually seems to be getting worse.
In many cases, I avoid the frustration of the alleged know-it-all computer response system and opt for human intervention; I call the Caller directly. It is in my speed dial and home and on the trusty wireless. Depending upon how many other folks have chosen this option and how many trains and crews the Caller has to call before they answer my call, I get to listen to the phone ring, and ring and ring and ring. Our system is designed so that a no answer within three minutes results in the system hanging up on you. I guess this is doing us a favor so that we don’t develop cauliflower ear or something as we hold that phone next to our heads for hours on end.
So after something like 60,983 rings (and hitting the re-send button 1300 or so times on the phone), I get a real live human being. I ask them what it looks like. They give me one of several programmed responses ranging from "I have no idea," to "they are planning on calling this train at any minute." This response is a personal favorite as it almost has a real meaning. Almost. If you all recall, I have mentioned on numerous occasions in the past the fact there is absolutely no correlation between real time and railroad time. Real time is "east", railroad time is "west" and believe me, absolutely never shall these twain meet, even by accident. I believe there is a law on the books that prohibits it from occurring.
If I had a dollar bill for every time I was told "They are planning to call you any minute", I would be basking in the sun in some tropical paradise surrounded by numerous young island girls to fulfill my every wish and desire. See I’m not greedy, I am just asking for ones. Had I asked for and received say tens or twenties, I would make the likes of Donald Trump, Bill Gates and all those big-time oil sheiks look poor and destitute.
I have been told "any minute" over the course of an entire day beginning at 0900 and through most of the evening on numerous occasions. Then when the call finally does come at say 2200 hours that evening, it is for a different train altogether. The "any minute" train seems to have lost its shimmer. And now I have been awake for some fourteen hours and am expected to be wide awake and ready to work all night on no sleep.
Then, there are the trains that seem to just fall out of the sky and land on the rail all ready to depart without any warning. It is as if Mr. Scott on the Starship Enterprise activated the transporter and beamed down a train onto the railhead. It just appeared out of nowhere. Now this is quite the magical feat the likes of which would baffle even Harry Blackstone Jr. In fact, I’m willing to bet Penn and Teller could never be able to do one of their famous exposes on how magic tricks really work as they too, would not be able to figure this ingenious feat out.
It really is magic.
I have been told "Nothing showing" on hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of occasions over the years only to have the Caller ring me up maybe twenty minutes later with one of these magical trains that has appeared out of nowhere. On many occasions, we have stepped out for a bite of dinner only to have the pager go off about the time we walk into the restaurant. Back in my single days. There was many the time that I was told point blank "You will not work tonight" only to have the pager go off about the time I picked up my date.
This past December, there were two occasions I will recount. The beautiful bride, one of our friends and I stepped out for dinner. As it would happen, it was my birthday and we decided to have a nice meal out. I had talked to the caller earlier and was informed I would not be going to work before 2100 hours. We walk into the restaurant about 1715 and lo and behold, the pager begins it vibration to alert me that somebody really desires a phone call from me. I look down and see the familiar 1-800 number that connects me to the Desk One Caller.
Hmm, they only missed it by one hour, forty-five minutes. I decided that I was having dinner first and told the caller that I would be there, but I might be a couple of minutes late. I was, but it wasn’t by much. Certainly not the amount that might have me appearing before "Mr. Microphone" at an investigation.
On Christmas Day, I called the Caller around 1300 hours and was told we would be going out later, like around 2000 to 2200 hours. Cool! That means I can be like the civilians and enjoy Christmas dinner with some relatives. After the Christmas 1999 debacle where they called us to work for 1500 hours and we then sat for hours as our train wasn’t ready, I figured I had the chance to see how the other half lives this year.
About 1505 we were getting ready to start sitting down to dinner when the pager begins doing the vibration tango. WHAT!? I look down and sure enough, there is the number of the Desk One Caller displayed. I started to look for a Crucifix to direct at the pager, sort of like they did in all those Dracula movies to keep old Drac at bay. It didn’t work. So I called the Caller.
I was informed of a grain train at 1700 hours. Oh no you don’t! I told the caller there was no possible way I could make it. I explained that the information given earlier was that we would go much later. Like a dope I made the foolish mistake of actually believing the times I was told. I told the Caller there was no possible way I could come close to even being there on time as we had traveled some distance to be with family for dinner. I could not leave now, get home, change and grab all my stuff for work and be there on time, or even anywhere remotely near the time requested.
I had to mark off on call. This was the first time in my over five years with the IC and CNIC that I have had to resort to this. They do not like or appreciate such behavior. In fact, they show marking off on call the same as a missed call. Unfortunately, I had to do it. They me up against a wall and I did what had to be done to get away from it. I certainly wasn’t happy about it, but here’s something to ponder; just how hot was this train that it had to be moved at 1700 on Christmas Day? Chances are that like 1999’s episode, this train would get to Champaign and then sit for hours there so as not to disrupt Christmas for the those nice folks.
Yesterday was a real shining example. The trusty computer as well as the Yardmaster at Champaign told us of an approaching grain train. The computer told of a 2320 ETA for the train. Fully expecting to get this train, I didn’t attempt to go back to sleep. I had awoken at 1200 or so this day and wasn’t the least bit sleepy. I sat there in the evening after a walk over to the nearby Market Place Mall for some exercise and watched a couple of movies on TV. At 0045, the call finally came, only not for the grain train. Instead, we got an empty coal train coming from Norfolk Southern. We had to cab up to Kankakee to get the train, take it to Clinton, IL via the Gilman Line and then cab back home to Markham.
Numerous delays and then a motive power failure led to us not making it all the way to Clinton. It did result in a 14 plus hour day though when all was said and done.
At some point, we will look at enroute failures in motive power and equipment and how frustrating that can be too.
"And now for something completely different."
I had made mention in the Santa Train piece last month that we had a grand total of five thousand visitors to the train in 2000. I erred in that figure; It was actually around 3300 visitors. This year though (2001), we eclipsed last year’s figures significantly. Our total count this year was around four thousand visitors. We were quite pleased although I think Santa’s lap may be a little worse for wear. Being that he is a resilient old elf, I know that Santa did make a full recovery in time for his big Christmas Eve run.
I would like to thank those of you that subscribe to Hot Times who took the time and made the effort to come out and say hello. Some of you came from considerable distance to be there and your efforts were greatly appreciated. Hope you all had as much fun as we did.
And again, I would like to extend a great deal of thanks to the management team of the CNIC Midwest Division as well as the staff of the Mechanical Department at Woodcrest for their continued support and cooperation in the Santa Train. Without them, none of this would be possible.
I hope all of you had a safe, healthy and joyous Holiday Season.
Here is hoping that 2002 is a great year for all of you and that the events of September 11, 2001 will never be repeated. And also, here is hoping that with this, Hot Times on the High Iron is once again, back on track.
And so it goes,
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2002.
Mike, seeing as how you enjoy Tuch's stories, you would probably enjoy reading a book that I just finished entitled Set Up Running: The Life of a Pennsylvania Railroad Engineman, 1904-1949 by John W. Orr (son of the engineer). It makes a rather interesting read, although I wonder if it's really as accurate as it portends to be (there are a couple of glaring errors in non-railroad references that I know much more about than I do the railroad stuff). It was just published this past year by Penn State University Press.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So you have an ISBN number?
The ISBN is 0-271-02056-3.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
is it just me, or did the r68's on the Sea Beach line (when they were there) smell better than the r68a's? Whenever i compare the west end r68a's to the Sea Beach r68's, i notice that the Sea Beach trains smell really good, kinda like scented cleaning stuff, whereas the r68a's smell like crap. anyone else notice this also?
You smell that Sea Beach air.
Perhaps the floors were just mopped. They use some kind of lemon scented cleaner.
But this is every time! you mean to tell me that they never clean the r68a's on the W? I guess i shouldn't be surprised at that....
Maybe when you ride a train of R-68As, you happen to get on a train of dirty cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Hi folks
I'm back.
Did I ever tell you folks that I actually go around kicking garbage off my beloved N train...ocassionally, I also ask people to pick up their garbage (well, if they look approachable)...by the way, I also take part in donating to Bette Midlers foundation for cleaning up NY parks, so remember to give a little if you receive something in the mail. Back to the beloved N...
The N train won the cleanest train award for 98 & 99.
The Straphangers concluded that in 1999 or so, 99% of trains in teh Srping were clean...a whopping 100% in the Summer of 99.
Hence, the N trains are cleaner. The people are nicer, certainly more civilzed...
I was on a CI D train around 8PM a few months back and a woman with her three kids were eating crab. Yes, crab. I was unfortunately sitting near them and had to dodge crab shells...
I was on a W train and this couple were eating fresh peanuts...again, I was dodging peanut shells....
I was also on the West End B train a long time ago and this man was clipping toe-nails...yes, toe nails...
I'm sorry, but a lot of West End & Brighton folks are loud, messy, and have no sense of courtesy or manners....I said a lot, not all...
I really don't see a lot of that by the time the 86th bound N reaches the Sea Beach portion...and if there are noisy or messy people on the N, they usually get off at 36th St for the West End or at Dekalb for Brighton.
Seabeach53
In the first sentence you state that you actually kick garbage off the N train. Where does it go? To the platform or tracks?
There is the occasional problem of some person leaving their newspaper or the newspaper is all over the floor like a bird cage. There were times where I saw people eating hot meals, but they clean up after themselves. Like there was a time a person had chicken wings in some sauce, it smelled good, but he held the garbage, and took it with him when he left.At least you didn't see the homeless guy on the West End leaning on the window with a nasty green thing coming out of his nose.
I really don't see a lot of that by the time the 86th bound N reaches the Sea Beach portion...and if there are noisy or messy people on the N, they usually get off at 36th St for the West End or at Dekalb for Brighton.
...lol
Good to have you back SeaBeach 53 and to have a little more class on this site. I love hearing you talk about your beloved N train. But where the hell have you been the past two months, and the same for Go N Train. I have had to fight the subway battles by myself against those sloppy Brightons or the disgusting F'ers. The West Enders? Well they have some good qualities. Stay on board this time because the Fred and Bob show is about to resume and with it the Sea Beach vs Brighton wars. One thing to remember, though. When the IRT gets drawn into it we close ranks until we dispose of those Bronx orientated fools, then resume our own warfare. Welcome back.
LOL, Fred. I was gone for maybe half of December, but came back at the end of it. I didn't really post into topics of the N train. I noticed that SeaBeach 53 has been gone for a while though. Either way, welcome back.
I saw a lot worse than that on a southbound N of R27/30s in summer of 1969. It was so bad I don't want to describe it on this board. I never saw that on a Brighton train, and I was that quite a bit more.
That was one of the things my friend said! He's a West End rider and complains about the W as do I. I remember this one time on a W and the thing smelled like actual sh*t. It was as if someone brought their dog on the train and it had to go. After moving to the other end of the car, it could still be smelled. BTW, the N trains are cleaned with Pine Sol. You could imagine how many bottles I bought after finding that out.
I've been in cars that smelled like p*ss, let alone sh*t. Sometimes I've been on cars that have smelled nice and clean also.
#3 West End Jeff
The 68's, like the 62A's, always had a distinct "clean" smell from the AC's while the Kawasaki cars (62, 68A) had no odor, so you smell everything else.
Hippos love to wallow in the water, Rinos & elephants use dirt, maybe that has something to do with it ? ... sorry, it's been a long time since I threw some mud at the Hippos.
Mr rt__:^)
If new lines are built, what should they be? Other lines except for the second Ave. line.
Before any new lines, I'd like to see the Queens lines extended past their current termini. The N to LGA, the 7 to Bayside, the F past 179th (to the county line, possibly) and the E to wherever it was intended to go originally.
Dan
I'd like to see a lot of things done, but I realise that those who control the monetary purse strings feel that rail transit construction is no worth the financial investment.
Before any new lines, I'd like to see the Queens lines extended past their current termini. The N to LGA, the 7 to Bayside, the F past 179th (to the county line, possibly) and the E to wherever it was
intended to go originally.
Sounds good to me. I'd continue the (N) well past LGA, over (or under) Flushing Bay, through College Point, Whitestone, and ending in Bay Terrace. The (7) I'd run to Little Neck. The (F) I'd take to the Nassau line on Hillside. The (E) I'd take to Laurelton or Rosedale if possible, perhaps with a merge with the Liberty Ave (A).
For new lines, I'll create another post....
:-) Andrew
OOOH! One more extension: (3) (Or (1)) from New Lots down Linden Blvd then Conduit Ave to JFK Airport, and maybe beyond.
:-) Andrew
Then you'll like my expansion plan. You can leave your e-mail address here or you can e-mail me at dlamond27@yahoo.com if you're interested.
O. BMT under IND, from City Hall BMT, via Broadway, underneath East River to things which mean things what we want.
Chicago.
Could PATH be extended that far west from Newark?
:0)
Yeah, but it'd probably be a horribly expensive fare zone.
Was'nt that a planned proposal at one time? Iremember reading somewhere the P.A was looking into this,but drop the ball.... does anyone here remember this also?
To Chicago? I severly doubt it. Further into Jersey? Maybe.
:-) Andrew
LOL.....
Same goes for Philadelphia.
Mark
Extend the 7 train!!! Think about it: NYC to Chicago for $1.50!!!
Of course, I don't know if I could sit on a redbird seat for that long. :)
JR
So would it connect with the L green line at East 63rd/Cottage Grove, or would it tunnel under Lake Michigan sraight to the Loop?
Mark
Straight to the Loop!
Express all the way.
Lake Michigan is a mere pond compared to the length of the new construction. Of course I would hate to read the headline,
"NYC-CHICAGO SUBWAY CONSTRUCTION ACCIDENT CAUSES LAKE MICHIGAN TO FLOOD NYC."
Allright. New lines:
(K) Shares 14th Street line with (L), but remains on Metropolitan Ave then Union Turnpike as far as we could go up to the Nassau line.
(X) 8th Ave/53rd St, cuts off immediately after entering Queens, follows the Lower Montauk line, cuts off that at Hillside and joins the (F) by Sutphin.
(Y) 6th Ave/53rd St local (I sort of envision a (V) on 2nd Ave/63rd St/Queens Blvd) then via Lower Montauk until Jamiaca Ave where it merges with the (J)(Z).
:-) Andrew
Unfortunately, with such a question, you're basically going to hear my favorite attitude: don't build something unless it benefits me directly. Unfortunately, what the vocal minority fails to realize is that the MTA does have judgment and that the benefits can be far-reaching and indirect, often extending beyond rail transit.
Priority Construction:
I believe the MTA has responded admirably to the areas of greatest need in the system. Planning studies and preliminary engineering are well underway for the Second Avenue Subway. A quick glance at the MTA's web site is a good indicator of what these priority projects are. Well, at least they are a priority in the MTA's mind...
The Second Avenue Subway. This is the most logical place to build a new line. The second avenue corridor has the greatest ridership to capacity ratio in the system. Just look at the population density and the location of the single IRT four-track line.
The Second Avenue Subway is not just a brand new line, but is really construction to connect existing tunnel segments to the system. Now these tunnel segments are small and located far from the bellmouths of the future 63rd Street interchange; the location where construction would begin.
The waking nightmare that is commuting on the Lexington Avenue line must be resolved, as we have already reached a crush-load condition. For those who are not convinced that the construction of this line (running through the most densely populated and underserved region of the City) is necessary and the most logical place to begin, the Second Avenue subway will have many other far reaching benefits.
Station Rehabilitation, Elevated Structure Repair, and ADA Compliance:
Although not as sexy a topic as new line construction in the minds of many railfanatics, this is certainly a costly need and high priority. I've had a chance to visit one of the worst stations in the system: 191st Street. It is in an unacceptable state of repair, and in need of major rehabilitation. Many residents are forced into (at the very least) inhumane conditions every day.
Although I am an Engineer, I am uncertain of the structural condition of the elevated structures. I do know that 242-VCP has 50 psf live load limits on the side platforms, but this condition may have been imposed be recent expansions, and not directly related to the health of the support structure.
While I am positive the condition varies, most are an eyesore to their communities, and do little to abate the noise of trains overhead. Business could be increased by a face-lift.
ADA compliance is crucial for making the subway more widely accessible to the elderly and disabled.
Construction that would be nice if...
...money for transit funding grew on trees. This category includes many of the expansions that have been tossed around on this board, but has not yet seriously been taken up (i.e., preliminary engineering and advanced planning studies) by the MTA. An extension of Staten Island Rapid Transit to Manhattan, an extension of the Flushing IRT to the Far West Side, but really only if a west side stadium were constructed. For the record, I disagree with the MTA's proposed routing of the Flushing line down Seventh Avenue, and would rather construction take it West under ~42nd Street, and then turn South down 9th or 10th Avenues to 34th Street. This would most likely involve demolition of the superfluous lower level on the 8th Avenue IND at 42nd Street, as the tail tracks on the Flushing line extend right to this wall.
And of course, there are the myriad of truly underserved areas, such as Co-op City, College Point, Throggs Neck, etc. The first two may actually fall in the category of priority construction.
Construction I don't want to see:
An extension of the Astoria or Flushing lines to LaGuardia Airport: Yes, you heard me correctly. This is something I would rather not see happen. Why? LaGuardia is Port Authority property. Let the PA pay for it, and in the process, free up money for the MTA to spend elsewhere. A lot of our lines are still crumbling. The subway does not belong on airport property, nor is the MTA equipment we all know and love properly designed for airport service. A separate system can be funded by airport taxes, sparing the rest of us non-airport commuters from a fare hike. Also, by combining systems, you force commuter transit to adopt airport loading patterns, or visa versa. I argue that there should be a free and easy (preferably cross-platform) ADA compliant transfer, or a simple standard fare hike (like an extra $1.50). I love the R-32, but I don't want to see it misapplied. The PA also has a track record of getting things built.
MATT-2AV
Why? LaGuardia is Port Authority property. Let the PA pay for it, and in the process, free up money for the MTA to spend elsewhere.
I think this is the attitude that the MTA took towards the JFK AirTrain, and look what we got: an entirely new system that will serve to get people from the airport to Jamaica Station. It'll have no connection to either LIRR or the subway and will probably be pretty cumbersome to use to get to Manhattan. The MTA and the PANYNJ need to work together on airport access and then maybe we'll get something modern and seamless.
Dan
"I think this is the attitude that the MTA took towards the JFK AirTrain, and look what we got: an entirely new system that will
serve to get people from the airport to Jamaica Station. It'll have no connection to either LIRR or the subway and will
probably be pretty cumbersome to use to get to Manhattan."
Very inaccurate, not well informed, but understandable. AirTrain links very conveniently to both. If anything, it's a success story on many levels (including funding).
Have you been to Atlanta's airport and seen what MARTA does? The PA does the same thing. Have you been to Newark Airport?
The MTA wasn't interested in running the A train into the Airport. That had nothing to do with the PA - the MTA had the ROW which it could have used, but wisely saw there was no reason to once the PA stepped forward.
There is currently no reasonable way to get the LIRR to the airport (the Rockaway line is dead and there are about a dozen, fatal, insurmountable obstacles to reviving it. Subtalk's archives are piled high with extensive explanations as to why this is so.) So the Port Authority built a line which connects to both. The PA ended up doing a nice job making sure MTA did its share of work: fixing up Jamaica Station, and committing $75 million to fix Howard Beach station.
The MTA wasn't interested in running the A train into the Airport. That had nothing to do with the PA - the MTA had the ROW which it could have used, but wisely saw there was no reason to once the PA stepped forward.
At the risk of repeating a point I've made before, a direct subway link to the airport could raise funding issues. AirTrain is being financed by a federal tax on airline tickets, and one of the strings attached thereto is a requirement that the line be useful only to airport users. While it could be argued that a subway extension terminating at the airport would comply with that restriction, the situation wouldn't be as clear-cut as AirTrain.
You are absolutely correct. I think an "A" extension could have qualified for PFC money, but "why risk it?" Especially when MTA didn't want to do it for operatinal reasons.
"It'll have no connection to either LIRR or the subway and will probably be pretty cumbersome to use to get to Manhattan."
This is a common misconception of the JFK AirTrain. Yes, I would have liked a one seat ride, but the archives of this board are filled with posts regarding the reasons for failure of such alternatives that would have appearead superior a prima facie.
The MTA had the JFK Train to Plane and could not get this to work due to scheduling difficulties. This train stopped only at Howard Beach. Now add in the intracacies of making terminal stops, and forfeit the extension to Jamaica, and you're not simplifying the matter. If they couldn't get it to work in the not-too-distant past, chances are, it won't be practical to implement now.
As for the Rockaway Branch of the LIRR, well, you might as well try and move the Island of Manhattan before you get that reactivated. Again, the reasons are in the archives.
I am all for seamlessness, but that does not necessarily mean a one-seat ride. People transfer from the IND/BMT to IRT all the time, but if I had my choice, I'd take a two-seat ride over a no-seat ride any day. And so did the MTA and PANYNJ.
MATT-2AV
The MTA had the JFK Train to Plane and could not get this to work due to scheduling difficulties. This train stopped only at Howard Beach. Now add in the intracacies of making terminal stops, and forfeit the extension to Jamaica, and you're not simplifying the matter. If they couldn't get it to work in the not-too-distant past, chances are, it won't be practical to implement now.
Oh, nonsense. The Train to the Plane failed because the Train didn't go to the Plane -- a transfer to a bus was necessary at the end. Nothing's new with AirTrain, except for an overpriced train replacing the bus.
Scheduling difficulties had nothing to do with it. Remember, the A ran express in Brooklyn rush hours only; at all other times, the express tracks were clear. Besides, as I pointed out a few months ago, if the A train itself (making all A stops) ran into the airport, it would take only ten minutes longer than the AirTrain - LIRR combo to reach Penn Station, and the A train would be faster for most of those not bound for Penn Station itself -- not to mention that it shouldn't be necessary to spend $5 plus LIRR fare plus subway fare for a trip within the city's borders when every other basic trip within those borders is available for a subway fare alone.
I agree with your rankings, with one exception. Extension of the 7 to the far west side should be a priority, just behind the Second Avenue line, regardless of whether there is any stadium construction. An extension would open up the whole area to the sort of development that so far has only tentatively poked its way west along 42nd Street. Contrast that to the Second Avenue line, which would serve areas that for the most part are already fully developed (note that I still rank the Second Avenue as the first priority given the intolerable situation on Lexington). By leading rather than following development, a 7 extension would in effect reclaim the subway's original role.
Two other advantages can be associated with a 7 extension. First of all, the relative lack of development along its likely route should help keep construction costs fairly reasonable, especially in comparison to the Second Avenue line. Next, a 7 extension could be tied into an expansion of the Javits Center. While the Javits Center siutation has been largely overlooked after September 11, the need for an expansion remains acute. It is too small to attract the sort of mega-conventions that generate huge amounts of ancilliary revenue for host cities.
I agree with your reasonings. I therefore change my statement from "it should be a priority only if a West Side stadium is constructed" to "it should be a priority... period". You are right, spurring new development should take a back seat to fixing current development, but I am very much in favor of an extension of the Flushing line. Its amazing how develoment just drops off precipitously west of 8th Avenue. Thanks,
MATT-2AV
I suspect it would cost a billion dollars just to get the 7 from its current TS terminal over to a new terminal station at 42St/9Av.
That's pretty close. The estimator of $1 billion per mile of tunnel construction is fairly accurate.
MATT-2AV
Is it true that MTA is bringing back the K Train, in its original 6th Ave/B'way Bklyn routing(not the AA replacement)?
Where did you get this information from?
Tell us where you heard this and (chances are)
we'll give you a big, resounding NO!
The K cannot be brought back under the current route alignments, because it would have no place to go for an uptown terminal in Manhattan, and the 600-foot long V train cannot run on the Eastern Division with its 480-foot platforms, so it has to terminate either at Second Ave. or (possibily sometime in the future) at Church Ave. in Brooklyn.
Absolutley not. 63rd. St has made this connection useless, or more useless than it was when it was in actual operation.
Not if they send the C through it, and send the E or V to Brooklyn in its place. (It would be a combination of both "K" services!)
Right now, that's the only way the Chrystie connection can be used. They can't send the V through there because it runs with eight-car R46 trains which can not deal with the tight clearances and the short platforms of the Eastern Division.
Community Consulting, some community organization based in Brooklyn, suggests rerouting the M train onto 6th Avenue and having it continue along the B line. But again, the Eastern Divsion clearances are an issue because the B runs with R68s. And for B trains to access the Chrystie connection, they would have to switch onto the local tracks before 34th Street. That would crowd the B, F and V trains all on two tracks. So that won't work either.
That leaves the C.
As the number of R143's increase in service, there will be more possibilities, but not a whole lot more since 75 foot cars still represent a large chunk of B Division capacity (there were 625 R68 and R68A cars total produced for the IND); I don't recall the number of R44's and 46's in service today (I know it's posted elsewhere on this site).
There's 752 R46's and 276 R44s give or take a few units.
wayne
Thank you. So that's a grand total of close to 1700 cars in the B division at 75 feet in length.
The B used to run with R40's, so why would it be hard to combine it with the M via Chrystie?
Because the B ran 10 car trains, and ran on the express tracks, making it impossible to access the connection to Essex St. without a traffic-snarling switch at 34 St or W4th St. The Chrystie St connector can only access the 6th Ave. local tracks from Essex, which means the only routes any Broadway Bklyn/6th Ave train could use north of Rockerfeller Ctr. would be to Queens.
Yeah I know, I know, you hate the whole idea of the K train. lol.
I don't hate it. I just see it as useless and unpractical.
63rd Street has accomplished nothing for anyone not on the Queeens Blvd line, and probably made matters worse for G passengers trying to get to Manhattan.
Well, if I lived on Roosevelt Island, I'd benefit with direct subway service. Of course, I'd also suffer from direct subway service, allowing the "riff-raff" element to access my island paradise. LOL
You mean low-life subway-loving slime buckets like you and me?
My wife will tell you that sometimes just my appearance could make somebody drown themselves in the East River (conveniently close if you live on the island).
:0)
Nah, not you or me. The 63rd. St. tunnel has made the trip for thugs who live in the Queensbridge projects ever so convenient, so that they can go on mugging sprees on Roosevelt Island and be home in just a few minutes!
It has also made it easier for cops to meet a train at the next stop and pick up the perps. The subway can be as confining as it is liberating. Jeffrey Rosen might have some observations about how the 109 or 110 Pct would hadle this...
"63rd Street has accomplished nothing for anyone not on the Queeens Blvd line, and probably made matters worse for G
passengers trying to get to Manhattan."
Not entirely true, though generally so. Queens Blvd. service itself is not directly relevant to Brooklyn riders; but having an extra tunnel off Sixth Av means that if police or medical activity or some switching/signal problem in any Queens-bound tunnel causes delays for Brooklyn riders on the same line (after all, a stalled F train at Lex/53rd could jam up service all the way to Stillwell), then the presence of two "relief valves" as opposed to only one prior to 63rd St's opening will help alleviate the problem. Also good for GOs, scheduled maintenance etc. etc.
As for G riders - yes, inconvenienced to some degree, but the same number of trains, albeit shorter, can now cover the shorter route more frequently.
The largest problem for the G riders in the new changes is the long transfer at Ely, as opposed to the easy one at Queens Plaza. I think the majority of them were getting off there anyway to go to Manhattan, as opposed to going to Queens.
You are correct. That is why the MTA installed a moving walkway, and Metrocard transfers to the 7; and is beginning to provide other amenities, like connecting stations together and improving them physically (setting them up for ADA compliance).
It isn't perfect, but it's a good start.
I think the short trains on the G line is the only real "problem" this line has. The long transfer @ Court Sq. is an inconvenience, but not a "problem".
I personally am happy to see better 6th Ave local service, which is perhaps an unintended consequence of 63rd St.
It's yielded better 6th Avenue local service. It's given passengers at Queensbridge, Roosevelt Island, 63/Lex, and 57/6 better service, including through service to/from Queens. It's given the TA options to reroute the V and R (and even E) for GO's and to bypass temporary problems.
What does 63rd Street have to do with providing thousands of Brooklyn riders a one seat ride to Midtown Manhattan through a connection that's ALLREADY IN EXISTENCE!! And how can you call that useless? Personally, I don't care, I don't live along Broadway Brooklyn, I'm not the one suffering! But I am amused by your "opinion".
You don't understand the context. Someone said the Essex-Delancey Street connections is all the more useless now becuase of 63rd Street.
I indicated one thing has nothing to do with the other.
I still don't see what the V train has to do with Broadway Brooklyn trains going to 6 Ave. How does the V train make the Essex-Delancey connection more useless?
So long as the V train is A.) Running 75-foot cars and/or B.) runnig 600-foot long trains, it can't run on the Eastern Division, and with the V and F on the Sixth Ave. local tracks and the B and D on the Sixth Ave. express, there's no room for another service via Broadway-Brooklyn. That leaves the C train as the only possible option to replace the K service, unless the MTA opts for a major overhaul of its IND routes in Manhattan.
The TA could conceivably decide that V trains with 8 60' cars are sufficient for Queens Blvd (i.e., relieve the E/F congestion sufficiently). As I said in my other post, I think there are additional issues about how useful the service would be, though.
I think the city should just go ahead and seal up this silly connection so that overstimulated railfans and bored community activists would have no reason to continue to justify the resumption of service thru this connector.
It's usage would disrupt too many other lines, for little benefit.
Back seat driving of the MTA is a long tradition, Chris....
:0)
Hey, I'm a dedicated rear car motorman myself, but I feel too many of us in here push for the resumption of certain routes because we never rode them and want to. I used the Chrystie St. connecor exactly once, when a fire @ the Bowery in 1987 rerouted the J I was on to 57th St.
The connection itself is not such a terrible thing. The MTA made the mistake of not providing adequate service through the former K/KK route, therefore inadvertently contributing to its demise. Today there isn't a pressing need to use the connection, but that doesn't mean that it would never be used again. Now just isn't the right time for it.
There are always uses for connections. Sometimes a connection should be built just because there's a need to move trains in a non-revenue fashion more efficiently from yard to terminal, or from one line to another.
That's right. Even it is only non-revenue moves, it will still have some puropose
Plus it allows service to continue in a reasonable state if they need to replace track or if some prat jumps in front of a train.
PLus they add flexibility. The 63rd St. connector is a prime example. So are the switches south of W. 4th St. They come in mighty handy when a reroute is necessary.
But 63rd Street does have something to do with the Chrystie connection. Because the 63rd Street tunnel connects into the heavily used Queens Blvd line, it dictates which train can use the Chrystie connection. The F currently uses the 63rd Street tunnel. There's no way you can run the F through Chrystie because it runs very frequently along Queens Blvd and uses R46s. You can't run the V through Chrystie either. The reasons for that are that the V also uses R46s and runs along Queens Blvd.
Shorter (480-foot) platforms and tighter curves on the Eastern Division lines (J, L, M) are another factor with Chrystie. So only 60-foot cars can use the connection. So that rules out the B and D trains, which currently end at 34th Street, as possiblities. Two other factors are that either the B or D would have to switch to the 6th Avenue local tracks in order to access Chrystie, overloading those tracks between 34th and Broadway-Laffayette. And then what do you do with the B or D when the 6th Avenue Manhattan Bridge tracks reopen?
Only one IND line in Manhattan runs with eight 60-foot cars per train. The C. Thanks to the 8 Av/6 Av junction south of West 4th Street, the C can access the Chrystie connection. Of course, something would have to take the C's place south of West 4th, either the E or the V. Because the C runs with eight-car trains of R32s or R38s, it is the only IND line that can be routed into the Chrystie St connection without causing major service problems elsewhere on its line. And it its cars are not affected by the restrictive Eastern Divsion curves or its shorter platforms.
I know this may sound crazy, but couldn't they swap the cars between the V and the C? This way, the V can continue from 2nd Avenue on to the Eastern Division, and the C can remain unchanged. Just a thought!
A good thought, I thought about that myself, but because the V runs through the very busy 53rd Street tunnel, it needs to run with full 600-foot trains. Also if the C ran with R46s and remained unchanged, it would need more R46s than what the V already has, because the present C line is longer than the present V line.
I was just thinking that if the V is running as "empty" as everyone is saying, they could get away with 8 cars of the R-32's or 38's. But, as you say, if they flipped, the number of cars wouldn't coincide, so I guess it wouldn't work. Oh, well! I tried!
Is the V running empty? Last I heard, people were catching on to it and it's working. If so, that would be all the more reason not to shorten V trains.
I hate to disappoint you, but finding seats on the "V" is getting harder these days. MTA evidently did something right.
I haven't witnessed it myself, but I spoke to someone from Forest Hills the other day who said there were seats available even as far in as Queens Plaza. However, I neglected to ask exactly what time of the day he was referring to. I stand corrected!
Rush hours, the V is quite full. Not as much as the E is, but people who need to access 53rd. St from the Queens Blvd. local stops are learning to take the V straight to their destination.
Heh, I always thought that that was the best possible plan.
BTW how well does MTA handle all the switching during rush hour?
Arti
To hear all the talk on here prior to the switch, you'd think it would be a slow mess. But I've never had problems on either the E, V or F train thru the junction. Very smooth, in both directions, even during rush hours.
I've always thought the service plan MTA instituted along Queens Blvd. was very good (and I wrote them to say so).
This is a separate issue from whether or not it should have been built. Now that it's here, they really did design a decent service plan for it.
The V does inrcrease service to Manhattan, now both locals got to Manahattan as opposed to 1, and riders at all those stations don't have to wait for the R as a G used to be mixed in. Now they can take the first one that comes.
What I've seen of the "V" train and its lackluster loads, it could very well get away with 8-cars of 60-footers, Slants, R32s or the like.
wayne
I rode the V Friday morning. Standing room only between Queens Plaza & 5th Ave.
The V is certainly not running "empty", so 480' trains are out of the question.
And a 600' C train would run virtually empty.
It's not just the cars it's the length of the trains. So long as the V trains are 600 feet long they can't completely platform on the Eastern Division, even if all the Vsare made up of 60-foot cars.
The other option -- which has been rehashed over and over again on the board -- would be to send the C train to the Eastern Division and run the V as Fulton local, with the two lines swapping routes south of West Fourth. Since the C runs eight car trains of 60-footers it can platform on the Eastern Division, but then you have to decide where the line's terminal is going to be.
That would be Eastern Parkway, for the interim; and once the Atlantic construction/destruction is complete, the south terminal should be Canarsie. Perhaps this would be good for rush hours, with mid-day terminus at Eastern Parkway.
wayne
That's the route I would pick, because it would provide something not available right now: A one-seat ride from Canarsie to midtown Manhattan. To do it, the Z train and skip-stop service east of B'way Junction would have to be abandoned, but the MTA could compensate for that by running peak direction express service on the J between B'way Junction and Marcy while letting the C handle the local service along Broadway.
That's the route I would pick, because it would provide something not available right now: A one-seat ride from Canarsie to midtown Manhattan.
I've said this before and I'll say it again: Running any trains from Canarsie via the Broadway elevated robs the majority of L ridership of trains, those who use the line WEST of Broadway Junction. If Atlantic Ave. wasn't being diminished, then terminating a potential route here would be possible. Canarsie cannot handle any more trains from Rockaway Pkwy as it is now, and ridership demands west of Broadway Junction on the L line demand every train that you can squeeze onto the line.
The Eastern division doesn't need a 1 seat ride into midtown. All 4 routes have plenty of convenient transfer points to north/south lines in Manhattan already.
I agree with you, but why can't Canarsie handle more trains? It's only doing about 12 tph now?
It's running 15 TPH, and the terminal @ Rockaway Parkway has a similar problem that limits the E from Parsons/Archer: inbound trains have to wait inside E105th for the next train to leave before proceeding. The switches here are somewhat odd.
Thanks.
By the way, the MTA schedule says "every 5-7 minutes" in rush hour, which I assume is a code phrase for 12 tph, which also corresponds to my personal experience (I live right near the 3rd Ave station).
The track map make it look like running the subtalk-fantasy-proposed K to Livonia on the L would be possible, however.
Actually, I can't find a track map showing the area around the Canarsie yard on this site. But the last time I was down there, the track configuration had the switches between the northbound & southbound very close to 105th St. This would limit capacity @ Rockaway Parkway to what it is today.
Chris: Up until at least the early 70's the double crossover at Canarsie was much closer to Rockaway Parkway. I believe that there was a slip switch just south of East 105 Street for access to the yard. Ever since they moved the double crossover north there have been delays.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Short runs from Eighth Ave. to Myrtle Ave. on the L, which ran in ye olden days, could be reinstituted to make up for the loss of TPH at Rockaway Parkway if that terminal was shared by the C and L trains. That would still leave a few stations in-between B'way Junction and Myrtle with less service. Whether or not that would make a major different would depend on how much those stations are used right now.
That's where I think most service is located, although is it possible to terminate and start trains at Broadway Junction instead (even though I know Myrtle is set up to terminate already with the extra track past the station.)
Hey, isn't this meant to be a subtalk fantasy? If so, the Fulton St El can be rebuilt between Atlantic and Grant, so that the P train can run from 8 Av Manhattan via the 14th St Line to Lefferts to make up for the reduction in L service west (north?) of Atlantic.
However, one could take the view that, with what's there at the moment, the MTA are doing their best.
Are most of the L's riders east of Broadway Junction? What would be the point of running a Canarsie Broadway Brooklyn train again, if they aren't?
It all the L train riders live east (south) of Broadway Junction and work within walking distance of 14th St. in Manhattan, then a Canarsie-Broadway Brooklyn-Chrystie St. route wouldn't even be worth discussing. But most of those who get on the L between B'way Junction and Rockaway Parkway have to transfer once more at either Union Square, Sixth Ave. or Eighth Ave. to get to their jobs, so the idea of a route from Canarsie to Midtown Manhattan has some logic to it (but not until the CTBC tests are done).
3 out of every 4 Canarsie riders (not exact numbers, but an educated guess) x-fer to the A/C at Broadway Junction. They'd still do this even if the K ran to Canarsie because the A express is faster than any propopsed K route.
Now when I've said a proposed C routing through Essex to Metropolitan in place of the M wouldn't work because people north of Wyckoff would transfer from the C to the L to avoid the loop down to Delancey even if it meant giving up a one-seat ride, I was told that people don't like to use that long transfer and would prefer a one seat ride. If your argument is true it would be the opposite -- people will take the long transfer up or down from the East New York platform on the L to the A train over a possible one-seat ride via a C train that goes B'way-Brooklyn to Rockaway Parkway and the Chrystie St. connection.
Obviously, either someone is wrong in their assumptions or the people of Canarsie are hardier souls who don't mind a good trip up and down the stairs or escalator five times a week, while people coming from Ridgewood are couch (or in the case of the Eastern Division trains, bench) potatoes. Peronally, I think sometime in the future a 168th-Wash Heights/Canarsie routing would at least be worth an MTA survey, to see if the L train riders south of B'way Junction would like a one-seat ride to the midtown area or if they like the set-up the way it is now.
Peronally, I think sometime in the future a 168th-Wash Heights/Canarsie routing would at least be worth an MTA survey, to see if the L train riders south of B'way Junction would like a one-seat ride to the midtown area or if they like the set-up the way it is now.
How do you provide this one seat ride to midtown and keep current service on the L west of Atlantic Ave, where ridership demands are already not met by current service? You cannot cut L service to accomodate this "C" route to Rockaway Parkway.
As I said in an earlier post, short train runs between Eighth Ave-14th St. and Myrtle Ave. could take up some of the service west of B'way Junction, except for the three stops in-between.
As far as the other problem goes, you seem to be automatically assuming that noone would take the C train and everyone who is taking the L now would continue to take the L even if there was a second line to Canarsie. Neither of us has been blessed with the ability to read minds -- maybe they would, maybe the split would be 50-50, maybe the number of riders switching from the L to the C would be somwhere in between. That's why I said the MTA could do a survey of the riders boarding between Rockaway Parkway and Atlanta Ave, to see if they would use a difffernt route to midtown Manhattan or if they prefer the way things are now.
As I said in an earlier post, short train runs between Eighth Ave-14th St. and Myrtle Ave. could take up some of the service west of B'way Junction, except for the three stops in-between.
Why go through the trouble, just to eliminate a walking transfer? People move a lot easier than trains do. Why screw riders at Wilson Ave. and Halsey St?
All I know is that I used to live in Ridgewood and used the M and L trains quite often. Most of the time I would transfer to the 6 train uptown. I usually took the M to Canal to the 6 rather than the L to Union Square. I just hated getting off the M at Wyckoff to get to the L, and the reverse coming home was worse. Even though it took more time to go to Canal and back up, it was worth it to avoid the transfer at Wyckoff-Myrtle. The Myrtle Wyckoff transfer is a miserable one.
East New York A train platform to the L train platform at B'way Junction is no walk in the park either, which bolsters my point that people, especially those already with seats, would stay on a C train headed for West Fourth and uptown rather than do the upstairs/downstairs shuffle to the A (which would already be too crowded to get a seat on anyway).
East New York A train platform to the L train platform at B'way Junction is no walk in the park either
Ain't that the truth!
What do you think of this idea that I started on another thread here?
It touches on your C train idea, but adds another reason for it.
JR
I don't see any problem with it, though the M letter designation becomes superfilous once its taken off the Willie B -- any letter designation would do. d if the MTA decided to end the B'way-Brooklyn line at Chambers and keep the Second Ave. lines running south to Broad Street or Brooklyn, the seperation of the two lines between Chambers and Bowery would still give them the option of keeping the M and C trains basically the way they are while adding a Second Ave. route, since the Centre St. tracks are vastly underused right now.
Going by the other thread started today, it sounds like the MTA wants to go with the original 1970 Second Ave. routing though lower Manhattan. While that would serve more areas from Chatham Square to Whitehall that currently aren't near subway lines, the total cost of building completely new trackage between Delancey and Whitehall could come into play in the future, so a Second Avenue line routing through the Nassau Loop may still be alive once the budget numbers are run through the people who have to approve the funing for the project in Albany and down in Washington.
East New York A train platform to the L train platform at B'way Junction is no walk in the park either, which bolsters my point that people, especially those already with seats, would stay on a C train headed for West Fourth and uptown rather than do the upstairs/downstairs shuffle to the A (which would already be too crowded to get a seat on anyway).
People will always seek the faster route, even if it means a transfer. That's a rule every routing plan should be measured against. This C train would crawl into Eastern Parkway, crawl thru the Myrtle Ave interlocking, crawl over the bridge, crawl through the Chrystie St. connection because of the inevitable logjam with incoming F trains, and crawl into W4th as it merges with the E. No time will be saved, delays are inevitable and no advantage is gained by doing this. Not to mention the fact that this C routing has no transfer to either the Broadway or Lexington Ave line. Eliminate these transfers, and people will use the L anyway.
Maybe. Maybe not once CTBC is exetended to other parts of the Eastern Division besides the Canarsie line. That's at least 15 years off, so we're not talking about something the MTA would be holding public hearing on any time soon, even if they did think it was a good idea.
As I said somewhere back in this thread, once the new system is in place, the Canarsie-Chrystie routing is an option. I'm not married to the idea, but it's something that the MTA could run a survey on for riders south of B'way Junction (you're not against the idea of surveys, I hope).
People will always seek the faster route, even if it means a transfer.
Some will, some won't.
Last Tuesday, I rode from Grand Army Plaza to 86 on the 1/2 during the afternoon rush. I could have sought out a faster route, but I wasn't in any rush and I had a seat. The train was empty through Brooklyn and filled up at Wall. I could have crossed up and over at 14 to the express, but the express ended up meeting the 2 I was on at 72 anyway, and I would have been stuck standing the rest of the way (and if the 3 had left 30 seconds later, I would have fallen one interval behind). It was a most relaxing ride; I rarely have the opportunity to sit on such a crowded train.
(Not that I'm pushing J Lee's plan. I'd rather combine the C and the J. Yes, I know how you feel about it.)
Some will, some won't
Everyone not a railfan will. Any perceived shortening of a commute will be eagerly exploited.
Wrong. Recall that my trip was from Grand Army Plaza to 86. Where might I have transferred? I could have gotten off at 14 and crossed up an over to the downtown track, where no train was waiting, knowing that I'd have to transfer back at 72. Since there was no train directly in front of mine (I waited a few minutes at GAP), there was simply no chance, barring very unusual circumstances, that the express could catch up with the next local -- the 14-72 express run only saves about four minutes, and I had no way of knowing how long I'd be waiting at 14 for the express. I could have gotten off at Atlantic and transferred to the Q or W and back at 42, but who would go through all those connecting passageways in the interests of possibly saving a few minutes (but probably not)? Remember, also, that I had a seat, a hot commodity once in Manhattan. Do you think I'd give that up for no reason at all?
Most regular 1/2/3 riders have figured out that the local isn't much slower than the express. A moving local is better than an empty express track.
That's not what I was thinking. Run the C or V to Metroplitan Avenue, kill the M, extend the J to Bay Parkway.
The V cannot run to Metropolitan with 480' train limitations.. The C would be even less desirable than the M to Myrtle Ave riders. And the J doesn't run frequently enough to replace the M south of Broad St. during rush hours.
That's 3 strikes. You're out.
I think the trouble with the concept of the K is that it can only provide a small portion of the Eastern Division with direct service to midtown.
Assuming you deal with the car lengths issue (say, by switching the C and V), you could conceivably run the K:
- to Canarsie
- to Metropolitan Ave
- to Parsons/Archer as a skip-stop
- to Parsons/Archer as an express on the middle track
- to Parsons/Archer as a local making every stop
Whichever you do, most of the customers on the Eastern Division will still have to change trains somewhere to get to midtown, except for the last case, which will just be excrutiatingly slow.
Wouldn't they actually benefit more in total from the V going to Church Ave so that when they change at Delancey/Essex a train will come within very few minutes?
Further, if you actually run it up 8th Ave as a C rather than 6th Ave as a V, you benefit even fewer people because 6th is a destination for more people than 8th is.
Is this some subtalk fantasy of running the C through the Chrystie route to Broadway Brooklyn, or did the MTA actually study this option. It sounds interesting, I was just wondering iof it was based on anything.
Fantasy as far as I know. Sounds like it would make a big mess south of W 4th relative to the value it provides.
Wouldn't they actually benefit more in total from the V going to Church Ave so that when they change at Delancey/Essex a train will come within very few minutes?
Yes! 12 extra trains at Delancey would greatly aid transferring J/M riders. Another big help, and cheaper than running a new line, is to widen, or add another stairwell from the southbound platform at Essex St to the lower F platform. That one stairwell can become crowded and it sometimes delays those who transfer from the F to the J/M in the morning.
Further, if you actually run it up 8th Ave as a C rather than 6th Ave as a V, you benefit even fewer people because 6th is a destination for more people than 8th is
That's another thing. The most popular stop on the A/C line is Broadway Nassau, as it provides a transfer to the Lexington IRT. If the C ran via Chrystie/Houston/8th Ave, i'd think that routing would be even less desirable than the current J/M service to Broad. You cannot transfer to the Broadway BMT or Lexington IRT anywhere along the proposed rerouted C line.
Wouldn't they actually benefit more in total from the V going to Church Ave so that when they change at Delancey/Essex a train will come within very few minutes?
Yes! 12 extra trains at Delancey would greatly aid transferring J/M riders. Another big help, and cheaper than running a new line, is to widen, or add another stairwell from the southbound platform at Essex St to the lower F platform. That one stairwell can become crowded and it sometimes delays those who transfer from the F to the J/M in the morning.
Further, if you actually run it up 8th Ave as a C rather than 6th Ave as a V, you benefit even fewer people because 6th is a destination for more people than 8th is
That's another thing. The most popular stop on the A/C line is Broadway Nassau, as it provides a transfer to the Lexington IRT. If the C ran via Chrystie/Houston/8th Ave, i'd think that routing would be even less desirable than the current J/M service to Broad. You cannot transfer to the Broadway BMT or Lexington IRT anywhere along the proposed rerouted C line.
So long as they don't built the proposed underpass to the uptown Bleecker Street station on the 6 at B'way-Layfayette...
If I'm an M rider, I'd rather transfer to the Lex at Chambers St.
I've been hearing a lot about bringing back the K, about the new V, the W. and good God what else. Next thing you know we will be talking about a Z. What the hell is going on back there? Why so many lines anyway? Then I hear there are jam-ups on Queens Blvd, while in other places trains are running very infrequently or hardly at all, or as you guys put, rarely and never. Something is amiss and I wonder why such a fouled up situation exists. I can only go by what you guys in New York tell me. Are there too many trains or too few? And why is the system in such a mess right now. Are we still reeling from what happened on September 11? That shouldn't affect the whole system when only two or three lines were directly impacted by it.
Fred, I hope that you're kidding. There has been a "Z" train for several years now, providing rush hour skip stop service on the Broadway Brooklyn BMT, along with the "J" train. In the days following 9/11, it was discontinued, when the "J" was extended to 95th Street, but I believe it is back again.
Well Fishbowl I wasn't kidding and that makes me somewhat ignorant of the facts. I;m getting my letters so mixed up now that I have little clue just what trains are running now and which have been discontinued. Thanks for clueing me in. I have never ridden on the L, J or Z trains, so I am not that well informed on those lines. I probably am less informed that I should have been not to know that there is a Z train.
Well Fred, the N is still the Slow Beach and it still runs almost Never. And what does run is getting passed on Broadway and at Dekalb Av. by Q trains.
Well leave it to you Q to add a little sunshine to my day with your enthusiastic jibes at my Sea Beach. What happened to your D? The TA did something smart and got that Bronx-laden fraud off a BMT track. Doesn't that bring a nice feeling to your innards? Read and weep pal.
The D will be back in 2004. I wouldn't be too sure that you're N will be back on the bridge, though. Sorry, Fred. We'll just have to wait and see. Until then, we should both only be well.
I realize the TA hasn't announced their 2004 plans, but what possible reason could they have for not running the N over the bridge?
- 4th Ave riders would still have 2 services to get to the Wall St area: the R and M.
- Anyone at DeKalb who wants to go to midtown wants to go over the bridge.
- There is still a service between midtown and downtown, namely the R.
When there are conflicting demands for service, the TA will often pick a choice that many people disagree with. But who could disagree with sending the N over the bridge? It even takes fewer cars than sending it through the tunnel.
Two possible reasons that I can think of right now: people have gotten used to the N going through the tunnel and less switching.
Not if the N skips DeKalb. That would not be more switching than what the N does now. On weekdays, the N must switch from the 4th Avenue express to the 4th Avenue local tracks north of Pacific to get to the Montague tunnel. If it remains on the express tracks north of Pacific and skips DeKalb, the N does not have to do any switching until approaching the Manhattan Bridge.
As for N line riders being used to the N going though the tunnel, they had to get used to that in 1986. They will get used to and (I think) appreciate it going express over the bridge.
True for the Dekalb area. But don't forget that further uptown, there is that additional switch, from the express tracks to the local tracks around the Times Square area. There is also the minor problem of the two additional merges, one around Dekalb (with the Q to the bridge tracks) and the other around Times Square, to the local tracks with the RR. But perhaps a stronger reason that could be presented for the N staying the way it is now is that, it seems to me at least, Astoria line riders seem to prefer local service on Broadway. And that's what they've had, mostly, from the 1960s or even earlier, with the QT, RR, and N going there.
Hey Q, speak for yourself. If you want local service on Broadway, fine. Use one your damn Brighton trains for that, and take the R as well. Just let my train get back on the bridge where it has always belonged, and while at it bring it back to becoming the Broadway Express again. Capice?
Fred, ridership. Not enough Slow Beach riders. Capisce?
If it was on the bridge it would get more riders because it is a quicker trip to Brooklyn than the Montague tunnel. Comprende?
It's comprendez, Fred, comprendez. Anyway, Fred, #1 Brighton Exp Bob has been AWOL for some time. Somebody's got to take up the slack.
I also remember when the N ran via bridge and would love to see it return there.
Q: As usual you are doing a hell of a job. Bob is getting overtime in his new job up the giggy and he says he needs the extra dough, so who am I to doubt him. When he catches his breath he will return, so in the meantime fire away.
In other words, the Bob and Fred Show is on temporary hiatus.:-)
That awkward switch could be avoided by sending the N to Lex / 63rd St and the Q to Astoria.
Agreed - a crossover switch should be built on the tail tracks that are past the 63rd St station so that the N trains can be relayed, not on the tracks used by the F line, which already has one. then both sides of 63rd St - Lex can be used, and Queens passengers can get to the Broadway lines earlier and quicker. How about it?
There's one on the track map just North of 57th St. Using that would have the disadvantage of the trains alternating levels at 63/Lex and would probably limit tph.
What they would need to do is build a 600ft section of 2nd Av, where the two tracks would ramp to the same level again, and there would be another switch.
or a section of 2nd Av as far as 125 St. Yay! I got an idea:
B: 168 St / Washington Heights - 6 Av Express - Brighton Express - Brighton Beach
N: 125 St / Lex - 2nd Av - Broadway Express - Sea Beach Local - Coney Island
Q: Astoria Local - 60th St Tunnel - Broadway Local - Brighton Local - Coney Island
It should have been done some time ago. In fact, it would be useful already what with the 2 Q trains terminating at 57th. There must be a reason why it's not already been provided for.
"True for the Dekalb area. But don't forget that further uptown, there is that additional switch, from the express tracks to the local tracks around the Times Square area. There is also the minor problem of the two additional merges, one around Dekalb (with the Q to the bridge tracks) and the other around Times Square, to the local tracks with the RR."
The Times Square merge is being done even now by the W, awkwardly I admit, when you have (Q) and on the express track and N and R on the local. It tends to back up express trains behind it. It should be fine with the gone.
As for the N at DeKalb, the suggestion has already been made that it could skip DeKalb, thus avoiding one merge.
"But perhaps a stronger reason that could be presented for the N staying the way it is now is that, it seems to me at least, Astoria line riders seem to prefer local service on Broadway."
Why do you say that? I know one Astoria rider at Broadway (Astoria) who is ecstatic at now being able to catch a W (now local in Queens and express in Manhattan). Just because they've never had an express doesn't mean they don't want one.
Having lived at Ditmars Blvd. station- Astoria Line in the past, I can say, that for a job in the 42nd street vicinity esp. Fifth Ave. and East, I would always switch to the waiting 7 at Queensboro Plaza and have a shorter walk.
I had the privilege of working in the World Trade Center at one time and I would have preferred an express to Canal Street and then switch to a local to Cortlandt.
It seems that the main beneficiaries of a Broadway local are people who get off at 49th Street. That is a small minority. Oh yeah, 23rd and 28th are local stops but not as busy as the midtown stations. As for 8th and Prince Streets, anyone can change at 14th.
The N should use the bridge too with the R in the tunnel.
It would make no sense to take an express to Canal, then a local to Cortlandt becasue of the long distance and stairways between the the two platforms. Once again, we are getting into the debate about the time saved between a local and an express. There is only a 4 to 5 minute saving in running time between a local and express on the B'way BMY subway. If you let an local pass you by, you will probably not catch up to it if you wait for an express.
If the proposed Whitehall-Astoria Broadway Local is created after the Manny B is fully repaired, then the N would probably run via Broadway Express, because there would be limited track space between Prince and Whitehall for three limes.
Having both Fourth Ave. express trains skip DeKalb would cause some problems at first, but with a better transfer at Atlantic Ave./Pacific Street (assuming they get that done by 2004) and the fact that The D and B and the Q and N would mirror each other in Manhattan from just off the bridge to Central Park means that almost all the current transfers available at DeKalb would still be in place if both the B and N trains skipped the station.
Right!!! Let the Sea Beach skip DeKalb and get it the hell on the bridge. There is no reason for it to be kept off of it any longer.
You are right. Look for my topic on Sea Beach Express track restoration coming very soon.
You can take that one to the bank Peppertree. I will be waiting.
Now all we need is a return of the Coney Island Express.
And if they are cheap at that time and decide against the Whitehall local, there was another plan-- to switch Astoria's peak direction N's to the tunnel at Prince. This would keep everyone happy, because most of the Brooklyn riders are clamoring for the Bridge/express route back. It's primarily Astoria that wants local service, because they always had direct local service. (RR, QT, etc).
This is also what they should do when the first phase of 2nd Av. opens, instead of reconfiguring Canal St. (especially now that the full-length line will follow right behind).
Eric: It was a curse when the N was sent to Astoria. It was a Brooklyn=Manhattan train that should have stayed at 57th Street. Send the damn R or W there and get my train the hell out of Astoria.
But the Queens part of the ride to Astoria is in the bright sunshine, not the rat infested tunnels. What is wrong with the N taking a trip in the sunshine to Astoria? Nothing.
The N is good enough for three boroughs anyway.
You bring up a good point, but remember this. The R is a local and when the N was sent to Astoria the seeds were sown for the Sea Beach to become a local, too. I like the idea of being out in the sunshine, so long as the N becomes an express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. But I believe that when the N was sent to Astoria all the TA looked at was that here was a more elongated local train. I hope I am wrong.
Hey Fred, what if the 4 had gone to Astoria when you were still living in the city? You would have had a nice, one seat ride all the way to Brooklyn.
During certain times of the day I do remember seeing from my window a #4 train coming out of the 11th Street tunnel and heading for Queens Plaza. I never could figure out if they had just forgotten to take the numbers off the train and were used in rus hour traffic, or whether the Sea Beach actually was routed past 42nd Street during rush hours. I still don't know and apparently nobody else does. But one thing is very certain, my eyes did not deceive me. I saw a number of times a #4 Triplex coming out of the tunnel and it did not have a #1 Brighton on it.
Fred: Why would this seem so unlikely. A #4 could have been extended from Times Square to cover a service gap. BTW was this before or after they stopped running the el cars to Astoria.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey R 142, I never got used to having my Sea Beach running through that rat infested Montague Tunnel when I visited New York in '91 and 99. I will not have to get used to it running over the Manhattan Bridge at all. To me that is natural. However, if you don't mind, I will keep breathing until that day comes. If it ever does.
Didn't the N briefly run over the Manhattan in 1990 and early 1991? When in 1991 did you visit? If I'm not mistaken, it ran express under Broadway (south of Times Square), over the bridge, and 4th Avenue all times except late nights. The late-night R was also made into a 4th Avenue shuttle at that time.
The N train was back for a while over the bridge, but problems on the bridge caused it to close after a very brief time returning, and then of course the whole rebuild began, but the N was supposed to last a little longer than it did when it was put back there in the early 90's.
I was there in August of 1991 and if I remember correctly it did not run over the bridge. Maybe someone out there can clarify this, but where the Sea Beach is concerned I am usually right.
The N ran over the bridge again for a brief period beginning in September 1990!!!!!! Tony
The N was still running over the bridge in October of 1990. It was pulled shortly thereafter, IIRC.
The N resumed service over the Manhattan Bridge (and on the Broadway express tracks, switching back to the local between 34 and 42, as the W does today) September 30, 1990 (and I have the map to prove it). This was only supposed to be temporary, during a brief cessation in DOT work. It ended up being more temporary than expected -- a cracked beam was found on the bridge two or three months after the service began and the N was immediately sent back to the tunnel.
I even had the brochures announcing the change, but I stupidly threw them out.
What I remember best about this service was the long waits for a local at 8th Street. Whatever ultimately happens to the N, there need to be two Broadway local services.
"Whatever ultimately happens to the N, there need to be two Broadway local services."
And having an Astoria to Whitehall St local plus an N Sea Beach over the bridge can be achieved with hardly more rolling stock than is used now for the N plus that portion of the W that is above 34th St.
Indeed. The question comes down to this: (a) Would Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton riders prefer local or express service on Broadway? (b) Is there sufficient express capacity for those who would prefer express service? If not, the least busy line should be bumped to the local. (c) Is there sufficient local capacity for those who would prefer local service? If not, the least busy line should be bumped to the express.
The N can run express. What's not clear to me is whether N passengers in Brooklyn want an express. I haven't taken a poll. The only preference I've heard comes from a resident of California who only rides the line when he visits Brooklyn.
Express stations at 34th, 42nd and 57th streets will take a lot of people. The only local station that may have a heavy load is 49th street.
I say, put the N back on the express where it has always belonged.
Midtown is a more major destination than downtown. On any Brooklyn line that feeds into Dekalb, there are always more people who would rather take the bridge than the tunnel.
Then once they are in Manhattan, all the transfer stops are express stops. So you serve most of the demand with the express. As long as you have good local service (big if, of course), the people who want Broadway local stop motly don't suffer by taking an express as far as they can and switching to a local.
I admit, there are exceptions. If you want to go to Prince St, you want a bridge train that then goes local.
But as long as Sea Beach riders are relatively normal New Yorkers, the express over the bridge will provide the best service to the greatest number.
I have a map from September of 1990 which outlines the N using the bridge during daytime hours. Even rode on an express N to Union Square, where I changed for an R to Whitehall St.
I was mad the Q didin't go back over as well (and they start up the V early, to cover 63rd St.). Since the N skipped DeKalb during the day, it was annoying getting from the Brighton to the Broadway express(either transfer Atlantic-Pacific, or take the R local).
Their logic-they didn't want too many people to become used to this "temporary service")
The Q shouldn't have gone back. You saw the confusion that resulted from the major service changes on 7/22. Why put the public through that only to reverse everything a year later?
I have the map and the brochures. I called this the "tease of 1990". It was not a good idea. The R train alone was inadequate for Broadway local service by 1990. I do remember that the N's going over the bridge were always restricted in speed from day #1, as opposed to the 6th Ave trains on the other side.
There is one very obvious possible reason: Perhaps Sea Beach riders disproportionately are bound for downtown Brooklyn, lower Manhattan, and Broadway local stops. I don't know if this is the case or not, as I haven't taken a poll. Have you?
I also think that ridership at the Broadway local stations, including those south of Canal, demands more service than the R. Whether the additional service is provided by the N or by something else isn't critical, but there needs to be something.
>>>The D will be back in 2004.<<<
As far as I'm concerned, it never left...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually the Z has been running with the J since 1988, so the Z letter is already taken.
Well GP, thanks for also setting me straight. It is hard to keep up 3,000 miles away.
lol............
I think there's a lot of perfectionism here. The subways aren't running perfectly. Some are too crowded and some are aren't full enough to be justified. So there's lots to complain about and suggest improvements for.
But, say, relative to 1978, they're in great shape (yes, I know that's not saying much).
For the latest subway map as well as mostly up-to-date schedule, go to the MTA web site (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/). And of course this site gives you track maps.
And the MTA were to bring it back, where would it go? Sending it to Queens Blvd is not a good idea as indicated by earlier threads.
Are they building the 2nd Avenue line as well?
Tony,where did you hear about this?
Look at what someone is selling on eBay.
Of course they are going to bring back the (K) train.
I mean, what else can they do, the poor alphabet only has 26 letters in it!
But sure as little fishes it *ain't* going to run *there* : )
Elias
Of the 5 Subway-Surfacew lines, (10, 11, 13, 34, 36), which routes were not the original routes operating in the subway?
I'll post the answer tommorrow.
13 and 36.
OK, that was easy and Paul Matus already answered it.
Actually, the #13 & #36 were introduced to the subway surface in 1956 - in the PTC era - long before SEPTA came on the scene.
For extra points, what surface streets did the #13 & 36 use to get downtown and back, before they were routed into the subway surface at 40 & Market?
Next question:
During the PTC era, only PCC air-electric cars were regularly scheduled to run in the subway surface tunnel. What was the reason for excluding all-electric cars from the tunnel?
Jim K.
ex-Philadelphian
What is an air-electric car? Does it use air prpulsion? Or does it lack a dynamic brake and therefore used air-brakes only? Or something else?
You've never heard of a PCC car built prior to the introduction of all-electric operation being refered to as an air-electric car? I didn't realize they were gone from the scene so long.
When I was a teenager, PTC had 489 PCCs, with 239 air cars (2031-2090, 2501-2680) and 250 all electrics (2700-2800, 2091-2200, & 2251-2290).
The air-electric car used air brakes to slow the PCC's down to about 5 MPH, when the dynamic brake took over. I'm not entirely positive exactly what type of brake system did the task to what speed; however, the air-electrics had air-compressors and used an air brake and brake shoes for stopping.
Maybe someone could elaborate on the mechanics or the air-electric braking system.
Jim Kramer
ex-Philadelphian
You mean the air-brake worked first, then the dynamic brake?
This is most unusual. It's usually (on the subway and railroad) the dynamic brake that slows the train down, then the air brake comes on to stop it (reduces wear on the brake shoes).
Train Dude?
This is my understanding (JeffH I'm sure could give more details). PCCs have three brake systems:
dynamic--slows car to 5mph;
friction brake (wheel tread on air-electric car; drum on all-electrics)--slows car from 5mph to nearly stopped;
track brake--stops car completely.
This is the default braking cycle in the control packages from GE and Westinghouse. Some properties tinkered with the adjustments to make the track brakes engage earlier in the cycle. I seem to recall someone saying SEPTA did this, and as a result had higher maintenance on the track brakes.
My understanding was that the track brake on the PCC, whatever its original intent, was to be used for emergency braking aid and to hold the car in place when stopped. I remember how the track brakes on the Brooklyn PCCs used to rock back and forth when they released when the car started up.
Reason they were not used (or no longer used) in service braking was that the action was too hard on the brakes and the rails. Just as I've heard it.
Not quite.
PCC's use dynamic braking to slow to between 8 mph and 4 mph (depending on if the car is has extended dynamic braking or not.)
At the fade-out point of the dynamic braking, the friction brakes bring the car to a stop. Air-electic cars have a lockout valve on the air valve that holds the air until the final braking. All-electric cars use spring applied, electricly released shaft brakes to do the final braking.
Track brakes are used only in emergency braking. It is actuated by pressing the brake pedal down 4 1/2", or in full emergency braking. Most operating companies trained operators NOT to use track brakes excessively, as track brakes tend to "smear" the rail head.
Now, for the reason that all-electrics were banned from the subway, it was a ban on brake actuators, not every all-electric. Cars with GE brake actuators used a long rod to manually release the shaft brakes in an emergency. The rod was long enough to contact the third rail on the MFSE tracks (on the left side of the streetcar tracks), so GE actuator car were banned. Cars with Westinghouse actuators (A WH has handles that are pulled outward to release the shaft brakes.) were not banned, but PTC/SEPTA did not assign them until the Woodland fire in 1977. At first, only WH actuator cars were used, SEPTA changed all the car to WH actuators, so any all-electric could be assigned.
What long rod? The brake release tool is the reverser handle.
We say that on all-electric cars, the brakes are spring-applied,
electrically-released, but that's a partial truth on GE actuators.
They have a complicated dual-coil, split-armature arrangement.
The brakes are spring-applied in emergency, electrically reset
and held. When released, the brake actuators consume only minimal
current. This is in contrast to the Clark actuators which are
always drawing several amps when released. With the GE actuators,
a second coil provides the service braking force and is only energized
when friction braking is called for.
My source for the "long rod" was a comment from a PTC/SEPTA Instructor in 1977. All-electrics were banned from the subway, not only for in-service, but also for fantrips. Since the all-electrics all had extended dynamic braking, there were no braking issues in their operation, but something had to be there for the ban. We ran fantrips in the late 60's and early 70's with all electrics and the routing to West Philadelphia had to be "over the top" from Girard Avenue and the trips could not enter the subway. By 1976 SEPTA was allowing fantrips with all-electrics in the subway, but the cars had to have WH actuators.
PTC was famed for funny reasons for various operating practices, like inward opening front doors on PCC's, removing backup controllers on secondhand cars that had them and other stuff. (They missed one on one of the Kansas City cars. We had it on one of the fantrips, and in backing down 9th street from the 62 line, I tried the backup controller and it worked.)
They may have used a T-handle instead of the reverser key
to get more leverage. There may have also been concerns about
holding a car on the heavy grade. I recall that some of the
actuator/shaft brake combinations did not hold that well.
This is an issue that Muni faces.
One question about this - in '69 the Girard Ave bridge over the Schuylkill River was to be rebuilt, a multi-year project which would require the 15 line to be partially bus-operated (west of 26th St). This would sever the only rail connection between SEPTA's North Phila and West Phila streetcar operations. SEPTA decided at that time to move a large number of all-electrics to West Phila for subway duty (to get the newest cars there) and transfer the older air cars from Woodland and Callowhill to Luzerne for the North Phila lines. This would also put many of the Callowhill 2600 air-cars used on 15 at Luzerne temporarily for continued 15 service. As far as I knew, that's when the electrics started taking over the subway-surface in earnest (the low 2100's (and 2090's) and some 2700's had always been at Callowhill and for some reason were favored on 10 rather than 15). I know many ex-Luzerne 2100's ended up at Woodland and remained there even after the bridge reopened in '72. Did I miss something?
Route 13 used Chestnut and Walnut Street while Route 36 came in on 22nd and 23rd from the south, then took Market on the surface, all the way to Front, IIRC. Originally 37 and 38 were supposed to go in the subway instead of 13 and 36.
I've always loved the Philly system> it helped sooth my trolley-deprived sensibilities when the last Brooklyn trolley died in 1956. When I first saw Philly, I had just missed the Willow Grove Line.
Even married a Philly girl. How much more dedicated to a system can you get?
OK, another wrinkle. What were the original SIX subway-surface lines? Which was the first to operate in the subway?
OK,the sixth would have been the 31--Market & 63rd Streets. This one always puzzled me, since I would have expected that withe the MFSE above, why would that particular route need subway access?
So the six were 10,11,31,34,37,38.
As to the first? OK, you got me. But I would guess 10, just on the basis that it's such a heavy route.
Have you seen S.L. Hackbridge's article in The Third Rail?
The subway-surface opened partially in 1905 (only to 15th St, and cars had to switch over to the 'express' tracks to turn back, with a temporary platform for trolleys). The predecessor of 31 was the first to operate in the tunnel.
That was my OTHER guess ;-)
Nice article. Thanks for posting that link, Paul.
I've heard two reasons for this, and I don't know if either is correct. One was that the dimensions of the all-electrics were slightly larger than the air cars and some tunnel modifications would be needed before the electrics could run in the tunnel. Another was the all-electric braking system was thought to be insufficient on the under-river tunnel grades. As noted, these are the guesses I've been given. I know that the ex-Kansas City cars were not considered for subway duty due to the blinker doors (and when the K cars were ordered, guess what they had!).
Heard on 1010 WINS that tomorrow's Crain's Business News will have an article about Larry Silverstein's plans to break ground on the new 7 WTC on 9/11/02.
While I like the symbolism, the piece made it sound like he's going to rebuild the 47-story building as was. Aaaccckkkk! No ... no .... NO!
I'd heard he'd hired David Childs of Skidmore Owings Merrill as lead architect. Let us hope that at minimum, they reduce the footprint so the Greenwich Street ROW can be restored and 7 WTC doesn't serve as quite such an impenetrable barrier between TriBeCa and the WTC area as it used to.
In the area, already (according to the NYT piece flagged earlier today), TA crews have torn open West Broadway north of Vesey to start the inspection prior to rebuild. About 300 days to reopening in November, and counting ....
I think the addition of several staircases would have easily alleviated the problems I remember when heading down West Broadway from my high school nearby. That overpass would have been far more popular with street access on the other side...
Unfortunately my memory as to the exact configuration of the overpass is fuzzy, I rarely used it since it had no exits aside from using the escalators inside 7 WTC to get to street level.
Anyway, SOM kicks butt, I have confidence they will do the right thing.
That overpass would have been far more popular with street access on the other side.
Not sure which overpass you mean, but with luck the rebuilt site will have standard NYC-pattern streets and people can cross at regular old sidewalks like they do in the rest of the city. The whole overpass thing is Atlanta-style John Portman architecture. Bleeccchhhh.
SOM kicks butt, I have confidence they will do the right thing.
IF the client lets them and they haven't been hired merely as window dressing to put a new skin on the same old shape, floorplans and footprint ....
Ah, I just looked at the map again... might explain why I never walked down Greenwich Street... I couldn't even remember the name of the street. :)
The West Broadway & Barclay intersection was what annoyed me :) Its the Barclay overpass that I wished had outside access.
I personally somewhat enjoyed the streetless skyscraper park. It was nice having a choice between that and Battery Park City.
The "footprint" for the Con Ed substantions is the whole area underground.
Silverstein could rebuild to have Greenwich Avenue continue south, and "split" the building into two parts.
Greenwich Avenue disappeared with the original WTC project; only the view was taken away by 7 WTC (a particularly uninspired looking building). (Full disclosure - pre-9/11 I worked there.)
What is the maximum height / area allowed under zoning?
The "footprint" for the Con Ed substantions is the whole area underground.
Including the area under the former Greenwich, or just west of there?
I'm actually assuming Greenwich was demapped under 7 WTC, so it could be a real tough thing to get it put back on the maps, esp. if Silverstein paid $$$ to the city for the space it used to occupy.
Greenwich Avenue disappeared with the original WTC project; only the view was taken away by 7 WTC.
Yeah, but many, many people (in the swelling cacophony of rebuild ideas) are saying that it should be put back to tie the area into the rest of the western downtown. Esp. since there's a southern portion still remaining to connect to the northern end.
What is the maximum height / area allowed under zoning?
No idea, but it's got have a *high* FAR (floor-area ratio) since 7 WTC was 47 stories SHEER-SIDED from the ground. Bleecccchhhhh.
Unfortunately he will probably build exactly what was there before because that would require the least amount of approvals.
If your building is destroyed through no fault of your own the city can virtually never stop you from replacing it as is (there is an exception if it's a non-conforming building in a landmark district, which this isn't). But if you want to make changes, it may need to go through extensive review processes.
I agree that it would be great to restore Greenwich St. The other snag is that then you get a really messy intersection, where Greenwich doesn't quite meet up with W Broadway by the time it gets to Vesey. And I'd sure hate to see car traffic on a newly reconstituted Greenwich St all the way through the WTC site.
Now if only Silverstien would replace the Twin towers as was.
If 7WTC is going to be 47 stories, buildings 1 and 2 will have to be substantially higher.
Remember TV needs it's aerial space back too.
I would like to see a building like the Solow building on W 57th go there, but taller. I think that there should be three 70-80 story buildings go on the WTC site with a memorial building in red, white, and blue lit up with LED's.
The WTC should be visible from all parts of the city, after all it has to look like a WORLD trade center. The memorial should be able to be seen far as well.
The Triplet Towers!!
No less than 110 will do Let $ilver$tein play with his little 7WTC AMERICA NEEDS 1&2 BACK TALLER THAN EVER. If he don't like it, too bad
This morning's Newsday and Dow Jones newswire added that Tisman will build the new building (they built 7 WTC) and Skidmore Owings & Merrill will design it. Any site plans must still be approved by the Port Authority. (Original building was 47 stories and 2 million square feet. That's one BIIIIIIG building.)
Ground-breaking on 9/11/02 is tentative because Silverstein doesn't want to detract from memorial services expected to take place that day.
The fact that Skidmore's designing a new building makes me feel slightly better. With luck, it'll be better than the previous slab. Let's just hope for Greenwich ROW restoration, with or without actual vehicle traffic ....
How close is the IRT (under W. Broadway, but they're pretty close there) to the new Con Ed substation underneath the former 7 WTC? Do they abut?
I don't know if there really is an answer to this, but:
Since WTC 7 fell down also, because of the colapse of the two towers, I was wondering. Do you think the second tower would have fallen if not hit by the second plane, or would the collapse of the other caused it to fall?
Since WTC 7 fell down also, because of the colapse of the two towers, I was wondering. Do you think the second tower would have fallen if not hit by the second plane, or would the collapse of the other caused it to fall?
From what I've read, 7 WTC probably collapsed because of the diesel-fuel fire fed by the tank to supply the Mayor's Emergency Command Center. Both towers went pretty much straight down. If only one had been hit by a plane, it seems probable that the other would have stayed standing -- although with a lot of collateral damage of the sort seen in the Verizon building, the Deutsche Bank building and one of the WFC towers.
For me, the whole thing became unthinkably unreal when I heard that the second tower had collapsed. One collapsing was barely, infentisimally plausible. Two collapsing was beyond my ability to comprehend.
For me, the whole thing became unthinkably unreal when I heard that the second tower had collapsed. One collapsing was barely,
infentisimally plausible. Two collapsing was beyond my ability to comprehend.
When I first saw the burning towers at about 9:45, it looked from my perspective that the South Tower was in a much worse state than the other one. That's not to say that I ever imagined that it would fall, of course; all I thought was that the repair job would be much more difficult. Its fall was to me too a completely unthinkable event. Even after it was down, however, I still didn't think there was any chance that the North Tower would fall, as it didn't seem as severely damaged.
I had an even more dramatic scene. I was at 14th St/6th Ave waiting for an L going to Brooklyn when the south tower collapsed. Cut off from radio signals, I scoffed at one man who got on at 3rd Ave and said that one of the buildings had fallen. Since I was telling my story to everyone on the train who would listen (including the conductor), I immediatley contradicted him. Nobody in the train knew what was going on, so I was almost screaming at this guy to stop overdramatizing what had happened, that the building could NEVER collapse, it was designed to withstand an airplane impact, and that he was crazy. When I got booted from the system at Lorimer St. (the system was frozen), I got up to the street, put on my Walkman, tuned to 880 WCBS, where I heard the man say, with a trembling voice, that one of the towers collapsed. Being so close to Manhattan, I had an excellent view of lower Manhattan. I immediatley turned around, to see only one tower standing, amidst the smoke. Shaken, I continued walking up Union Ave, hoping I could get the J train at Broadway. About 10 minutes later, I heard on the radio that the other tower had collapsed (the female announcer was almost in tears, as she had to interrupt a live interview with some eyewitness to say this). I immediatley turned around to see lower Manhattan. Where one tower once stood, there was now nothing but a 110 story cloud of debris. Needless to say, I was VERY upset. I was still confused about what had actually happened. Even though I was there, I had not seen the impacts on TV, and had problems with my radio to get some information in that manner. I had no real grasp of what had happened until I got home.
7 WTC fell down because debris (some very heavy, some flaming) landed on and broke through its roof, causing a major fire that could not be put out. The huge oil tank in the basement may have been part of the problem. Eventually the building collapsed from the steel melting.
The insurance companies are claiming that even if there had been only 1 plane the other tower would have been unusable. That's quite possible, but an actual collapse would not have been very likely.
Any debris from one tower would have struck a glancing blow on the other. The basement area between the 2 towers would have been totally destroyed, but there is no reason to believe that the skin or the core of the second tower (each of which alone would have been strong enough to hold it up), much less both, would have been disastrously damaged by the collapse of the other tower. After all, people successfully escaped from the north tower even after the south tower had collapsed.
Note that even 4, 5, and 6 WTC were seriously damaged but not destroyed by the collapse of 1 and 2. It was the fires afterwards, again due to debris coming through the roofs, that made them unusable.
We will never know for sure what would have happened if only one tower had been hit.
My assumption (based on my knowledge of the plans for the WTC) is that the second tower would have stood, with considerable structural damage. Probably due to the massive damage to the basement area, it would have either been totally reconstructed while standing or torn down.
The fall of the South Tower did take out four WTC and the Marriott Hotel. Five and Six WTC (and Seven) were taken out by the North Tower.
We also do not know if the fire from the one tower collapse would have spread the same is it did when both fell. (Remember, there was remarkably little fire below ground outside the actual area of the tower collapse).
Do you think the second tower would have fallen if not hit by the second plane, or would the collapse of the other caused it to fall?
I'm assuming you mean the north tower falling, and the south tower with no plane impact?
Here are my thoughts on this (not a structural engineer):
There are a few scenarios that could have happened. Watching the collapse live, and looking at satellite photos, such as the one here, it looks like the north tower fell straight down and slightly to the north of itself. This is what caused 7 WTC to catch fire - on every floor - and collapse. (Engineers are still trying to find out why it collapsed after burning. Most steel core buildings that are completely burned out remain standing.) So, in this scenario, the the collapse of the north tower might have caused the bottom floors of the south tower to burn and require extensive repair, but may have been able to be extinguished by FDNY since it would have been easier to get to since it was near the gound.
Another scenario: The north tower falls the way it did, but actually ends up destroying most of the south tower's northern corner, and starts a fire. With heavy damage to the exterior support columns at the base of the structure, the weight of the remaining 100 floors on those missing columns would have eventually caused that corner of the tower to collapse. This would have caused the entire south tower to tilt and fall in a North-West direction, falling on top of the collapsed north tower, the Financial Center #2,3,4, the high school, CUNY, West ST. and possibly into part of the marina 30 W Bway, and who knows what and who else. Remember, all the rescue vehicles were lined up on West St. Scary.
Looking at the third photo here though, I have come up with the next horrible, and most likely, scenario:
The north tower falls, and looking at that picture, it fell pretty far from itself. As it falls, the debris rakes down about 80 floors of the south tower, creating massive structural damage. Those 80 floors on the NW corner then burn from the jet fuel and electrical damage to the tower. When the north tower hits the ground, the seimic effect causes the south tower to move ever so slightly, and triggers a NW collapse (same as the second scenerio.) Essentially, both towers collapse at the same time, and no one has time to evacuate the area after the collapse of the north tower, or get anyone else out of the south tower. This would have had thousands more causualties, and I feel sick even writing about it.
Perhaps the towers actually fell the "best" way they possibly could.
Now I feel like crap.
JR
One of the news sources mentioned that the two buildings falling registered over 3 on the Richter scale. I suppose a 3+ magnitude earthquake centered underneath another already damaged building would be a huge factor in destabilizing it further (like 7 WTC... not only was it on fire for hours but it stood through two 3+ magnitude quakes). Anyone who was in downtown Manhattan that day felt the "tremors".
I have friens who live in a Brooklyn Heights high-rise that could see the WTC collapse. They said they could feel it, and then hear it. That's an amazing amount of energy being sent through the ground and air.
All of my co-workers who didn't leave the area immediatley (as i did) described the south tower collapsing in frighting detail. From his vantage point ny J & R Music World, my friend said he could hear the steel structure "creaking" about a minute before the collapse. Many people in the immediate area actually said "I think it's gonna fall" before the entire structure started imploding. The sound of the implosion was akin to a "747" at full thrust. My friend had to race the debris cloud all the way up to the footing of the Brooklyn Bridge.
I'm so glad I got on the train when I did. I was able to make it to Brooklyn before the subways were frozen.
I have friens who live in a Brooklyn Heights high-rise that could see the WTC collapse. They said they could feel it, and then hear it. That's an amazing amount of energy being sent through the ground and air.
Dunno. I was at the corner of North Moore and Hudson streets when the South Tower fell, though my view was blocked by a nearby building. I heard a fairly but not tremendously loud boom, followed immediately by the screams and shouts of the people nearby who actually saw the collapse, but I did not feel anything, at least nothing that I noticed. In fact, as I've stated here before, I didn't realize that the tower had fell even after I ran from behind the building that had been blocking my view and looked south to see a huge dust cloud - I thought that a fuel tank had exploded. Only after a gust of wind briefly parted the dust cloud maybe 30 seconds later did it dawn on me just what had happened.
I'm sure the wind played a factor in how loud the sound was. It was blowing southeast, the opposite way from where you were.
JR
Not that this is really relevant or helpful, but I'm pretty sure the south tower would have survived quite well if the only north tower had been hit. The evidence is that the north tower was not disastrously damaged by the fall of the south tower, which did not fall perfectly straight down either. People still escaped the north tower after the south tower fell.
The evidence is that the north tower was not disastrously damaged by the fall of the south tower, which did not fall perfectly straight down either.
The difference is that the south tower actually fell slightly to the southeast. The area above the impact tilted as it collapsed causing the southeast sides to collapse (tenths of a second) before the northwest sides. This caused the majority of debris to fall away from the north tower.
The north tower fell fairly uniformly, so more debris would have been headed toward the other tower than when the south one collapsd.
I do think that the north tower would still be standing if it had not been hit by the plane. The fact that the tower's foundation was still intact after the south tower fell proves this, and dispells the rumor that one building would cause the other one to fall due to foundation damage. (That's what the insurance company is trying to tell us.)
After I watched the south tower fall, I remember thinking how strange it is going to be with only one tower standing, and wondering how long it will take to repair the damaged floors that the plane hit...
JR
After I watched the south tower fall, I remember thinking how strange it is going to be with only one tower standing, and wondering how long it will take to repair the damaged floors that the plane hit...
My thoughts exactly. I just couldn't imagine that the North Tower was in danger of collapse itself, as it didn't seem anywhere near as severely damaged.
Yeah, I couldn't imagine that they both would fall. I kept thinking to my self, "It's going to be hard to get the plane out so high.", and "Boy, it's gonna be a while till they let people back up there." I never even imagined that one, or even both would fall. I still can't believe it!
I'm assuming you mean the north tower falling, and the south tower with no plane impact?
Here are my thoughts on this (not a structural engineer):
Another scenario: The north tower falls the way it did, but actually ends up destroying most of the south tower's northern corner, and starts a fire. With heavy damage to the exterior support columns at the base of the structure, the weight of the remaining 100 floors on those missing columns would have eventually caused that corner of the tower to collapse. This would have caused the entire south tower to tilt and fall in a North-West direction, falling on top of the collapsed north tower, the Financial Center #2,3,4, the high school, CUNY, West ST. and possibly into part of the marina 30 W Bway, and who knows what and who else. Remember, all the rescue vehicles were lined up on West St. Scary.
I'm not an engineer or architect either, but based on what I've read about the situation, it doesn't seem likely that this terrible scenario could have happened. Basically, it does not appear possible for a tall building to fall horizontally like a tree. Part of that is due to the lack of a rigid base to act as a fulcrum. With a tree, of course, the stump fulfills that purpose. In addition, if a building did somehow start to fall horizontally, its weight would shear the floors apart before it got too far off the vertical and result in a reasonably compact spread of debris. There have been some fairly close real-world approximations of this effect when factory chimneys or radio towers have fallen. In other words, the maximum spread of debris from the fall of either tower would not be anything close to the tower's height.
Looking at the third photo here though, I have come up with the next horrible, and most likely, scenario:
The north tower falls, and looking at that picture, it fell pretty far from itself. As it falls, the debris rakes down about 80 floors of the south tower, creating massive structural damage. Those 80 floors on the NW corner then burn from the jet fuel and electrical damage to the tower. When the north tower hits the ground, the seimic effect causes the south tower to move ever so slightly, and triggers a NW collapse (same as the second scenerio.) Essentially, both towers collapse at the same time, and no one has time to evacuate the area after the collapse of the north tower, or get anyone else out of the south tower. This would have had thousands more causualties, and I feel sick even writing about it.
Once again, the South Tower's collapse under this scenario probably would not have resulted in a significantly greater debris spread than actually occurred. In addition, note that the evacuation of the South Tower began not long after the first impact and was in full swing by the time the second plane hit. That's why there were only 600 dead in the South Tower as compared to 1,400 dead in the North Tower (not counting rescuers) even though the South Tower was hit lower down and fell more quickly. Had the South Tower not fallen until the North Tower fell, the extra time would have allowed for an almost complete evacuation.
Once again, I have no professional-level knowledge of these facts, and am only repeating what I've read.
In addition, if a building did somehow start to fall horizontally, its weight would shear the floors apart before it got too far off the vertical and result in a reasonably compact spread of debris. There have been some fairly close real-world approximations of this effect when factory chimneys or radio towers have fallen. In other words, the maximum spread of debris from the fall of either tower would not be anything close to the tower's height.
Yes, that makes sense. I do wonder if the way the exterior columns were tied together would have allowed it to topple farther from vertical before breaking up? I did notice that when the north tower collapsed, the west side exterior columns were still standing up to about the 80th floor, and could be seen through the dust. They were up for a good 4-6 seconds after the initial collapse. That's pretty amazing!
Check out these photos from a Taiwan earthquake. Granted these buildings are nowhere near the height of the WTC, and would have less gravity working on them, but it is interesting how intact they are.
I think the south tower would have made it to the Financial Center though.
JR
Like almost everyone in the UK I spent that afternoon (it was afternoon over here, of course, when it happened) watching horror-struck as the TV coverage showed the events over and over again.
If the owners of a redundant tall building want to demolish it on purpose, there are two ways of doing it. One - used for redundant factory chimneys - is to fell it like a tree, cutting a notch at one side so that it falls in a pre-determined direction on to empty land. I've seen TV documentaries of it being done with such precision that the chimney falls along the middle of a street without damaging the buildings on either side of the street. The other method - used for redundant high-rise apartment buildings - is to make it fall straight down into its own footprint, more or less.
The Twin Towers fell in the second way. If they had fallen in the first way, like a factory chimney, the destruction would have been over a far larger area. And I think that was precisely what the 1993 attackers intended, which is why they tried to blow up one side only of the foundations of one tower.
There was an article about that in the Times after it happened. Basically the consensus was that the WTC could not have possibly fallen like a tree falls. Trees fall at a pivot, like the radius line of a circle, because they can't compress and disintigrate as they fall. A building on the other hand would never fall like a tree because once it is unstable enough, the top compresses down onto the lower levels and it falls straight, more or less, down. So I don't think anyone had anything to worry about, even in the 1993 bomb, of the WTC falling like a tree and crushing everything in its path for a 1500' radius.
Question about W8th on the Brighton and the Culver. Rode the Culver southbound from Ave X, changed to the Northbound Brighton at W8th. Clearly, this isn't done much--I had to cross under, and then go up two levels. It looks like this wasn't always the case though. Seems that the Brighton had a connection to run into the lower level at W8th, that got cut years ago. Is that correct? Why was the track taken out? Actually, why are there two levels there at all? Why not just merge the Brighton and the Culver there, for the last two stops? Also, it looked like the next stop south of Brighton Beach is set up as express, and that for a while, the Brighton is a six track main. What is all that for?
On the six track - The LIRR ran east of the BRT tracks.
The Brighton line had access to both levels prior to the takeover of the Culver line by the IND in October, 1954. After that date, the tracks connecting to the lower level from the local (outside tracks) at Ocean Parkway station were removed, but the trackways remain. I have some memories from the early '50s of weekend service where the Brighton locals to Manhattan used the lower level, along with the Culver trains, while the Brighton-Franklin expresses (Franklin-Nassau?) used the upper level.
As for the six tracks between Ocean Parkway and Brighton Beach (I think that's the six track stretch you're referring to), it's a mini-yard used for Brighton Express trains. Sometimes I wonder if they should have left the leads to the lower level at W. 8th St. in place for additional storage tracks.
-- Ed Sachs
IMO, there was no sensible reasons to remove the Brighton leads to lower level W8th, ecept to save some switches and the TA's compulsive desire to isolate the divisions operationally. Ditto failing to hook up the shuttle at Ditmas Avenue, though they built the steelwork for it.
I guess I should be glad they didn't sever the link to Coney Island Yard.
Were there ever tracks on the additional steelwork south of Ditmas?
The steelwork was built in conjunction with the shuttle track. I never saw any indication of trackwork there, and am fairly confident there never was any.
Paul : You mentioned the 1954 construction at Ditmas Avenue in the last post. Since that was originally built as a three track local station the fourth or westernmost track that was used by the shuttle must have been newer construction. Am I right in thinking this?
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Yup. Done by the TA to 'ease' things at that station.
The Culver Shuttle track on the west side of the southbond platform at Ditmas Ave. was built as part of the project to connect the IND subway to the Culver El. The steelwork for the extra track extended south of the station, apparently to support the shuttle track merging with the southbound track, but no track was ever laid there. There was a bumper post at the south end of the station from the beginning.
I buy into the theory that in 1954, the TA still wanted to keep the IND and BMT as separate as possible. I guess they felt that the connection at Stillwell Ave. and through the Coney Island yards was plenty -- no need for a connection at Ditmas Ave. or for the Brighton line to connect with the lower level at West 8th.
I also remember steelwork for a trackway that connected Track 1 (westernmost track, used by West End trains) to the lower level tracks toward West 8th south of Stillwell Ave. station. In my memory, there were never tracks on it -- both West End tracks ended in bumper posts at the south end. Does anyone know if there ever was such a track connection?
-- Ed Sachs
I buy into the theory that in 1954, the TA still wanted to keep the IND and BMT as separate as possible. I guess they felt that the connection at Stillwell Ave. and through the Coney Island yards was plenty -- no need for a connection at Ditmas Ave. or for the Brighton line to connect with the lower level at West 8th.
I've always looked at it as trying to maintain the least amount of trackage as possible. There's really no reason at all to have a connection from W8th lower level to Ocean Parkway. I mean, it's nice to have around 'just in case', but with the tracks meeting up 1 station away....
Ditmas Av. should have been connected, especially because that was it's original line. But with the existence of the 38th st yard, it's really of little importance to have the tracks connected (unless a train broke at Ditmas, which would suck.)
It also provided a convenient excuse to not run any of the old Culver/Nassau service after 1954, which may have been in demand when the IND took over the Culver line. This would've made the Culver shuttle tracks more important, therefore defeating the city's plan to eventually make the short section between Ditmas Ave & 9th Ave. useless and unusable.
Culver-Nassau continued to run until (IIRC) 1958, albeit truncated. But you are right in that the cutting off of most stations gave the TA the excuse to keep cutting back until there was just the shuttle and finally, nothing.
But if the track connection was made south of Ditmas, they could theoretically run the rush hour Culver/Nassau service to Chambers even after the connection to the IND, although a nightmare grade crossing in the morning rush would have made it impractible. No track connection made this absolutley impossible. Some old man who had ridden the Culver line to Chambers St since it opened therefore had no ability to complain about his loss of direct service to the financial district in 1954.
Quite right. There was no real excuse for not making that connection, even if only for emergency running.
For a while I lived at a location on Ocean Parkway where it was more convenient for me to use 18th Avenue Culver station than Ditmas. But I used to walkto Ditmas to get the shuttle rather than go to 18th Avenue, walk down and up again and possibly have to wait for two different trains (D at 18th Ave., then the shuttle at Ditmas).
The Culver-Nassau ran until 1959, when it was replaced by an all-day (weekdays) West End local and the Culver Shuttle. Of course, running the West End local all day from AM to PM rush also meant the end of the weekday midday West End express to midtown.
Part of the 'excuse' for turning the Culver line into a shuttle was the opening of the transfer from the IND to the BMT at 9th St and 4th Ave, giving IND Culver line riders another place to transfer to BMT trains to Nassau St.
-- Ed Sachs
The westernmost track at Coney Island is Track 8 (platform designation after c.1958) or Track H (Signal/BMT designation). Track G/7 was connected at one time, but I doubt Track H/8 ever was, even though the steelwork for it was there.
At any rate, it was, it would probably have been severed when the new platforms and connection to the Norton's Point trolley were built in 1924.
There's a picture in Greller's book showing the West End platform with a wooden platform built over the outermost track as it curves towards the Culver tracks. It's dated in the 1940's, so a connection must've existed at one time.
That shows that there was woodwork over the steelwork and argues for the connection, but doesn't prove it. The covered walkway that you see running from the West End platform is the 1924 connection to Norton's Point Line that I mentioned which would have severed the connection, if it existed.
A bit more explanation: the reason I say "doesn't prove it" it because there is only a short stub or rail from the end of Track H. The BRT/BMT (as many other systems) was notorious for not ripping up what didn't need to be. Prime example: the north (west) bound Franklin Avenue track was covered with a wood platform at the same time (1924). When the platform was torn out after the fire, the track was still there, 60-odd years later.
Now if we just had a picture or feeder diagram from 1920....
There's more than steelwork in this picture. If you look on page 30, you'll see the wooden walkway is built over actual track, albiet unused track in poor condition with missing rails.
Didn't the BMT keep the Broadway Ferry structure up for 24 years after it's closure?
Yes, and the Fulton Ferry structure. I believe both were kept operational and used for storage at times. And don't forget the Chestnut Street incline.
IMO, the BRT/BMT had an unusual sense that "who knows, we might want it someday" plus a desire not to surrender franchise rights.
IMO, the BRT/BMT had an unusual sense that "who knows, we might want it someday" plus a desire not to surrender franchise rights.
You mean half an ounce of common sense. Suppose it is unusual.
Yes, the fourth track was added in 1954 specifically for the Shuttle. Look at any picture of Ditmas Avenue southbound platform and you will see that the roof was never altered to account for drainage of an island platform, which is what it became.
Interesting, and informative. But still, why two levels at W8th? Both BRT lines could use the lower level, if there was no upper level. So, why'd the BRT create two levels? Anyone?
The Brighton was the heaviest line, then as now, and the Culver was relatively heavier than it is now. Two tracks with switching and a grade crossing at W8 would have been insufficient.
As to the lower level connection for the Brighton, it gave the BMT routing flexibility to send locals to the lower level while operating expresses to the upper level, though in practice this was more used on summer weekends to route Brighton Locals to share the lower level with the Culver while Franklin/Nassaus (through trains) used the upper.
Franklin/Nassaus were a very important service through the '40s, which you would never guess from today Toonerville Trolley Franklin Shuttle.
The Brighton was the heaviest line, then as now, and the Culver was relatively heavier than it is now.
You wouldn't think so with the service patterns that ran on the Culver pre 1954, with only rush hour service via Nassau St and absolutley no service via Broadway to midtown.
That's not so. The Culver trains ran to Nassau Street all day, local during midday, express at rush hours, before 1954. Between 1931 and 1940, there were Culver trains via the 4th Avenue subway AND the 5th Avenue L, the latter also express during rush hours.
Anyway, the BRT designed Coney Island terminal to deal with four lines and busy weekends. People were coming from Brighton Line points, transfers from the A Line and/or Fulton L at Franklin Avenue, from Park Row and the 2nd and 3rd IRT els via Culver or Franklin-Nassaus. The joint was jumping. It was an advantage for the BRT to have two levels W8 to Stillwell just to minimize the idspatching headaches.
I was under the impression that Culver service after 1940 still ran only during rush hours to Chambers St, and a shuttle from 9th Ave operated other times.
It ran a variery of services in the BofT/NYCTA era. They continued to run an elevated service (!) from Ninth Avenue SOUTH to Coney Island. I don't recall whether this was daytime or just rush hours (and I'm too lazy to look it--maybe Larry will come to the rescue).
During rush hours it ran Culver-Nassau expreses, via bridge, loop, tunnel while West End Short Line ran via tunnel, loop, bridge. During midday hours they ran Culver Locals via tunnel to Chambers Street both ways.
These continued until either 1958 or 1959 (I think '58) even after the D train took over south of Ditmas.
At other times they ran from Ditmas to 36th Street, where there were much betetr connections. I took it as a sign they were finally trying to kill the shuttle once and for all they cut back the northern destination to 9th Avenue.
Prior to 1931 (when the Nassau Loop opened), the Culver line was served exclusively by 5th Ave. El trains. From 1931 until 1940 (when the 5th Ave. El came down), El service from Sands St or Park Row to Coney Island via Culver was basically a rush-hour and "sunny summer weekends" only operation -- other times, El trains terminated at 9th Ave. I think that the main reason they continued rush hour El service was the shortage of steel subway cars did not provide enough equipment to run all Culver trains via the 4th Ave. subway -- in fact, rush hour Culver Nassau trains turned at Kings Highway, and ran non-stop on the center track in the off-peak direction between Kings Highway and 9th Ave.
When the El came down in 1940, the service was changed so that rush hour Culver-Nassau trains (still terminating at Kings Highway) used the express track in the peak direction, and a stop at 18th Ave. was added. Rush hour local service, using wooden El cars, ran from 9th Ave. to Stillwell Ave. This arrangement persisted until the IND took over the Culver line in 1954.
-- Ed Sachs
From 1931 until 1940 (when the 5th Ave. El came down), El service from Sands St or Park Row to Coney Island via Culver was basically a rush-hour and "sunny summer weekends" only operation -- other times, El trains terminated at 9th Ave.
Not eactly. Culver provided the base service on the 5th Avenue L at the time. 5th Avenue L service was reduced in 1934 so that they coupled to Culver trains, except during rush hours, and at the end ran as a shuttle 36-Bay Ridge except during rush hours.
Culver L trains also provided the base on the L to Coney Island. Culver-Nassaus only ran weekdays (which included Saturdays in those days) from about 7 am to 8 pm.
Culver L trains did run only to 9th Avenue (from Sands Street) midday weekdays, letting the Culver-Nassau cover the route, but even this cutback was suspended in August and September.
OK the new pick starts in February.
Any word on when the effective day is?
Service changes? NOT ones you want, the rest of the board had that.
Already? I guess this will be a short pick.
PBD:
I think Wannabe is referring to the B division pick. I think it still kinda short but whatever..... Notices are out for potential A to B transfer to put their requests in.
Actually the notice says A&B but only mentions A to B transfers NOT B to A.
I seen the notice at Woodlawn today. The written request has to be in by Jan 30.
I'm thinking about making the transfer just to see how it is. I may try to go for something out of 207,168, or 205 St. I may try the L on weekends just to get my hands on the R143.
If I do go over its just going to be a 1 pick event.
I may be wrong, but if you transfer it is a commitment of at least 12 months, not one pick. Check it out beforehand.
Current policy is 6 months. I last transferred from the IRT to the B division for the winter 2000 pick. Expect to see a notice soliciting transfers for the B to A shortly.
You currently are doing two locals on the 1 to New Lots. Trust me, once you come here, you'll stay. At least for now.
Think about it:
Riding the A over the Rockaway flats and 2 express runs.
On the C, two locals to Euclid
On the D, three express trips to 34 St, or three locals on the B out of BPK/145.
I wouldn't do the L if I were you, unless you can get a three tripper. Too far to travel to work, and no guarantee that you'd actually get the 143.
The R143 passed the test so the is a guarantee the he will get the R143's once they start running more. As for the pick, the only pick that I have seen is for the section pick. The Southen section is repicking becouse on the N line only going to 86 street. The T/O on the N complaned that they picked one thing and are getting another. But it would not be a bad thing if the hole B division dose pick again. This was I might be able to get out of Work Trains faster. I do want to get back to the road, even if the work is easyer on the Work Trains sometimes.
Robert
The B pick starts in February. Really it is not so crazy as the last general pick started in September. Two shorter picks in a row might mean lots of retirees, lots of expected retirees and this one will be a long pick.
Apparently, even though the picking starts in February, it will not go into effect until May.
Makes sense they go thru like 100 names a day so that is like 37 business days. Actually faster since it is only B.
Expect lower penalties on F jobs, a few more switching jobs. I think they want more OTS T/Os on switching. Even the Vet road guys get pissed when they do their own relay while watching 4 switchmen sitting there.
Because if you start doing your own relay the TA will cut those jobs.
Sure the relay is in your road program but you come into CTL 5 late and see 4 guys sitting around and you think why can't they at least double end me. The road has to be blown up totally to get a double end.
At 179 they got smart to guys coming in late to avoid the relay so you start the job with the relay. With 20 minute headways the three switchman should be able to relay for you and have a spare guy in case of a B/O train.
Not to denigrate in any way ... even in rush at 205th, you'd roll your pig into the relay, and walk the train of course ... but you ALSO had to check signs and adjust as necessary and then take her back out from the terminal WITHOUT falling back ... your relay ended at Bedford in those days. It might STILL be that way. There was a switchman assigned to the 205 platform as well, but you'd never see him. :)
Now you get the double end even on the midnights even thought the D is now a cakewalk. There are 3 midnight switchmen too up there at 205 and they also like to keep a board guy there plus they have a yard full of guys a stop away. The Supt up there seems very hands on. At 179 he seems more in Brooklyn. At some places there are mid night standards and rules and AM rules, the D really is not like that. If someone is late to start their put in, they get someone to cover it fairly quickly not 5 mins before the train goes out. On the F they just yell it's preinspected and make you take it out. I have seen preinspected trains zoned up wrong and the HVAC breakers all nuts of course then it is your fault.
On the D it's a federal case if you go out 2 late even on the midnights unless there is a damn good reason. On F you can go out 20 mins late with a follower and not even get a skip on the midnights.
You really do need those guys cleaning out trains is more labor intensive then it was 30 yrs ago when you could still beat er influence the passengers with your paddle.
I don't know if it is that as the job got easier up there the people got nicer or it's management the sets the tone or some good dispatchers, I was not up there pre Bridge flip.
While you were sunning your hynie there was a GO on the J Chambers to Canal. We would make a r/t for each J at Canal. Now if they extended the shuttle to Essex and cut the J to Essex or some form of that this actually would not be such a bad service. The whole J as OPTO is nuts but this might not be a bad place to try it.
Figure that as soon as the B Div pick is over, the A Div will start picking and BOTh will go into effect in May.
I feel sorry for the pick guys with only one divison picking updating that board is going to be fast and furious all day long
The A division pick is supposed to last through Memorial Day.
No, I left the No.1 Line in Dec. I am now currently doing two days on the No.4 Line, 2 days on the No.5 Line and 1 day on the No.6 Line.
The C Line is only 2 trips that sounds good. The D Line sounds good as well.
The D is the best thing out there except for the B. If you live up north and don't need the penalty money the B & D is a no brainer. A B job is as good as B job, if you know what I am talking about.
The C is mostly 3 trippers I think.
You got the wrong guy, Zman.
TrainDude had informed me that my seniority went up a few notches...I'm towards the end of the CI list BUT NOT the last page and we're Jan 17th which is the LAST day. Hopefully, the RIPs will hold their places and leave day inspection slots open. CI Peter
I hope the pick works out for you. Its a good feeling knowing that you moved up.
Thanx. I moved up a few spots like everyone else because of resignments and retirements. The rumor mill is churning out tons of wheel cuttings about the previous exams and the elegibility lists and my crew is re applying for the CI test 'just in case.' What's fifty bucks compared to what we have been given??? God Bless, CI Peter
Misread it.
RUMOR has an effective date of 5 May 02.
Looking at timetables for both gets me confused as to what trains go where, so can I get some help from LIers here?
North trunk:
1) Are Ronkonkoma Branch trains express only from Jamaica to Hicksville?
2) Would an express on the Port Jefferson Branch be considered trains that don't stop at Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset, Westbury, and Carle Place?
3) Although Holis, Queens Village, and Bellrose are listed as Hempstead Branch stops, and likewise for New Hyde Park and Merillon Avenue for Oyster Bay Branch, do trains for those two respective branches stop at those stations, or do Port Jefferson Branch trains handle those stops?
4) I understand that Ronkonkoma Branch trains do directly into Penn Station, and that Oyster Bay trains commonly go to Hunters Point Avenue since the line is non-electrified at both ends. Where do trains that originate at Port Jerfferson, Huntington, and Hempstead normally go to?
South trunk:
1) Do Babylon or West Hempstead Branch trains stop at St. Albans? (Because whenever I'm out that far in Queens I frequently see trains flying by the station or stopping there even though they don't necessarily serve the branch that station is assigned to.)
2) I understand that Babylon Branch trains are the direct trains into Penn Station, and that Far Rockaway Branch trains are the direct trains to Flatbush Avenue. Where do Long Beach and West Hempstead Branch trains commonly end up?
3) Although stations between Jamaica and Lynbrook are listed as Far Rockaway and Long Beach Branch stops, I see Babylon trains either stopping or passing through there. What's up with that?
4) Montauk Branch: Given that it's non-electrified, do trains alternate between Penn Station and Hunters Point Av. depending on where they originated (e.g. Speonk, Patchouge, Montauk)?
Here's a few answers...
1. Most Ronkonkoma trains stop at Mineola and Hicksville before making the local Ronkonkoma stops (Bethpage...). On weekends, you can add New Hyde Park and Carle Place as stops between Jamaica and Hicksville.
2. ?
3. Bellerose, Queens Village and Hollis are only served by Hempstead branch trains. As the track is currently configured, Bellerose can only be served by Hempstead trains. QV and Hollis can be served by the other branches, and had such service as recently as last summer.
4. Ronkonkoma and Huntington generally go to Penn. Hempstead usually goes to Flatbush. Oyster Bay usually goes only as far as Jamaica. Port Jeff is sometimes a shuttle to Hicksville or Huntington but also runs to Jamaica at some times. During rush hours, there are some Penn-Hempstead, FBA-Ronk and FBA-Huntington trains.
1. St. Albans is listed on the West Hempstead branch timetable. Which is very nice, except that almost no West Hempstead trains (except for a few AM peak trains) stop there. St. Albans is in practice a Babylon branch stop.
2. Babylon and Long Beach are usually Penn Station trains. Far Rock is Flatbush and West Hempstead is usually a shuttle to either Jamaica or Valley Stream. Again, there are rush hour exceptions to these.
3. Some Babylon branch trains (usually the rush hour Freeport trains) will use the Atlantic Branch (Rosedale/Laurelton/Locust Manor) to reduce congestion in the interlockings east of Jamaica. None of the trains make any stops, though.
4. Other than the one Speonk-Penn dual mode train, service on the Montauk branch is ends at either Babylon or Jamaica.
CG
Thanks for the responses. I've got to say that if I were the towerman at either Harold or Jamaica, I would be getting headaches and repetitive motion injuries trying to figure out which train is going where and setting the switches accordingly.
To my understanding, the shuttles on PJ are between PJ and Huntington, particularly during middays and weekends and have diesels on the point. With the DM/DE30s (or the lack thereof, as I hear), the LIRR has the capacity to run Oyster Bay trains through Jamaica to either Penn or Hunters Point, since before trying to do so would have both strained capacity and brought the old diesels into Midtown (which I believe is still against the law in NYC, isn't it?). If not, then I believe the old service pattern would apply, wouldn't it?
Dose the WH still sometimes use buses on its shuttles, or was that simply for a project that was done a few years ago? In any case, the shuttles on WH go only to Valley Stream for a transfer to either a LB or Babylon train. Same thing for FR, only in its case it goes to Jamaica since trying to terminate at Valley Stream would leave it with only one track and platform for both LB and Babylon trains to work with. WH shuttles should be the exception since they are more rare than the FRs.
WH trains are trains that operate during the weekdays and nights to Valley Stream, and other times go to Jamaica. Rush Hour trains run mostly to Flatbush Ave., except 1 AM run does go to Penn Station. This thing with the buses was only a project. Valley Stream has a storage track east of the tower which was built in the mid 80's, and because of that, shuttles from any branch would terminate on #2 which gives a connection train the usage of #1 track. FR branch has a interlocking just before the first bridge (Roosevelt Ave). for a train to go from 1 to 2. By law, no and I repeat no diesel under diesel power is permitted in the tunnels due to safety codes, except in emergencies only.
2) Would an express on the Port Jefferson Branch be considered trains that don't stop at Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset, Westbury, and Carle Place?
Unlike the subway, "local" and "express" stations are not always set in stone on the railroads. Most Huntington "express" trains that stop at Westbury. Sometimes they'll do Mineola-Westbury-Hicksville-Syosset-Huntington. Some rush hour trains don't stop until Westbuty or Hicksville. A "local" would make all stops from New Hyde Park through Huntington.
3) Although Holis, Queens Village, and Bellrose are listed as Hempstead Branch stops, and likewise for New Hyde Park and Merillon Avenue for Oyster Bay Branch, do trains for those two respective
branches stop at those stations, or do Port Jefferson Branch trains handle those stops?
New Hyde Park, Merilon Ave, and Mineola are listed as Port Jefferson Branch stations, though some years ago they were listed as Oyster Bay branch trains. Since nearly every train that stops at these stations is going to/from Huntington (or also Ronkonkoma or Montauk at Mineola), it sort of makes sense that they're listed on the Port Jeff Branch timetable.
BTW I believe there's a miniscule number of trains from Huntington which stop at the north platform of Floral Park.
3) Although stations between Jamaica and Lynbrook are listed as Far Rockaway and Long Beach Branch stops, I see Babylon trains either stopping or passing through there. What's up with that?
The Far Rockaway, West Hempstead, and Long Beach lines all branch off the Babylon line.
Babylon/Montauk trains NEVER stop at Valley Stream, unless there's an emergency. That is, of course, not really never. Once or twice during my time travelling from Lindenhurst my train did stop at Valley Stream when a Far Rock Branch train was cancelled.
Lynbrook is often a stop made by local Babylon trains.
:-) Andrew
"Babylon/Montauk trains NEVER stop at Valley Stream"
The technicality police report back that the 4:39AM train from Babylon to Penn does make a scheduled stop at Valley Stream at 5:20AM (you'd only know this if you look at a Long Beach branch schedule or if you actually ride this train). I believe it is the only scheduled Valley Stream stop on the Babylon branch.
CG
The technicality police
LOL!
My bad. You realize there was a caveat in that "NEVER", though. With the LIRR, few things are absoulte. (One excpetion: You will NEVER get there on time.)
:-) Andrew
A few summers ago I remember several weekend afternoon Babylon trains stopped at VS... or mabye only one and I kept getting it over and over again...
BTW I believe there's a miniscule number of trains from Huntington which stop at the north platform of Floral Park.
That one AM westbound electric train that originates in East Williston on the Oyster Bay branch (and has been discussed here on Subtalk before) does stop at Floral Park.
In addition there are two or three AM eastbound trains that stop at Floral Park and then continue on the Main Line rather than the Hempstead branch.
North
1. A lot stop at Mineola
2. Don't Know
3. Few if any non Hempstead trains stop at QV, Bellerose, or Hollis. Ditto for thE Oyster Bay Stations.
4.Huntington trains go to Penn, Port Jeff goes to H. Point, Hempsted I think, majority to Brooklyn, but some to Penn.
South
1.All W. Hempstead go to St. Albans. Few, if any other branch trains stop there.
2.Long Beach and Far Rockaway go to Brooklyn, except some rush hour Penn train.
3. I don't think any Babylon trains stop at the stations between Lynbrook and Jamaica. A few do stop at Lynbrook though.
4.Only one train each way on the non-electrified part of Montauk branch goes to Penn at this time. There will be more in the future.
To Answer the North Trunk:
1. Ronk trains are usually express with making Mineola and Hicksville as the main stops except 1 eastbound train (#2098 From Flatbush Ave. to Ronkonkoma) makes local stops from New Hyde Park to Ronkonkoma. Some trains make local stops from Mineola to Ronkonkoma ex. #2008 although it skips other stops east of Hicksville. Train 2029 makes all stops (except Carle Place) to New Hyde Park. All Huntington trains (especially middays) make local stops from New Hyde Park to Huntington. During the weekends, Ronkonkoma trains stop at New Hyde Park, Mineola, Carle Place, Hicksville and all stops to Ronkonkoma. Huntington trains stop at Merillon Ave., Mineola, Westbury, Hicksville, and all stops to Huntington. Some westbound Port Jeff trains skip all stops from Huntington to Jamaica, or if they don't, stop at Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset, Hicksville, Westbury, and Mineola before making Jamaica its last stop. All Port Jeff trains on weekends either originate with passengers from Hicksville, or Huntington. This does not mean that a deadhead move does not originate from Jamaica though, because those westbound trains that go there have to deadhead back to make the need for equipment. See it for yourself.
2. Regarding express on the PJ branch, technically expresses are those which stop at Syosset and Hicksville to or from Huntington, but others will be considered a local.
3.Stops west of New Hyde Park are occasionally used for westbound trains. A few Huntington trains going westbound stop at Queens Village and Hollis enroute. One AM E. Williston Train #1501 stops at Floral Park north platform. 3 Eastbound Huntington trains stop at Floral Park before they continue eastward on the main line. That station has 3 platforms (1 for eastbound Hempstead trains, 1 for westbound main line trains and the center platform for westbound Hempstead trains and eastbound Main Line trains). No eastbound trains stop from Hollis to Queens Village. Bellerose is a center platform based between the 2 Hempstead Branch tracks, so it is only used for Hempstead trains.
4. One Ronkonkoma train #2068 originates from Hunterspoint Ave. 2 trains #2098 and 2064 originate from Flatbush. Westbound #2019 goes to Flatbush. Until the newest timetable #2010 originated from Jamaica, now originates at Penn Station. Yes all originate from Penn, except those I mentioned. One Oyster Bay train both ways go to Penn Station. One westbound and 2 eastbound trains go to LIC via Montauk Branch with no stops between Jamaica and LIC. Most terminate at Jamaica except a few trains ends at Mineola with the turnaround at Queens interlocking. Huntington trains are Penn Station trains except #1621 is a diesel train to Hunterspoint, and 2 go to Flatbush in AM rush, and 1 early morning eastbound and 2 PM rush hours originate from Flatbush. Port Jeff trains have 2 AM and PM rush hours going to Penn Station with all the rest going to Hunterspoint. A few originate from Jamaica, but most from either Huntington or Hicksville. Hempstead normally is Flatbush Ave., except some do go to Penn Station.
I don't know whether CSX has completly taken over operations in this neck of the woods or whether Conrail is still hanging around. But in any case, is this connection from the old NH "Harlem River Branch" to the Metro North mainline (by way of branching off the NH at 143rd St/Southern Blvd., WNW under the park thru the tunnel, N under Westchester Av. by South Bronx High School, underground again turning W thru Melrose to meet the mainline) still being used by freight, or has it been abandoned for all intents and purposes due to the existence of the Oak Point link?
The Oak Point Link has apparently made this connection redundant, which results in the track not being used. The trackage hasn't been used in quite sometime. Grass is starting to grow over the tracks, not to mention the accumulation of garbage.
Recently, a few of the cars belonging to the trash train could be found stored on this track.
-Stef
The Oak Point Link has apparently made this connection redundant, which results in the track not being used.
Hmmmmm. Can we imagine any transit uses for it?
Don't know at this point. Metro North RR to Penn Station? Heh.
-Stef
Don't know at this point. Metro North RR to Penn Station? Heh.
IIRC, the MTA's planning study said that connecting the Harlem line to the New Haven line so that Harlem trains could run over Hell Gate was too complicated -- bad grade problems, tight turns, private property would have to be taken. Since I don't know the tunnel etc. that you're discussing, I'm assuming that it's that connection ... or am I off?
That's the one.
-Stef
Grass is not simply starting to grow over the tracks. It's starting to take over the tracks in some areas. Garbage lines the link from the portal at 149th Street and St. Ann's Av. to the other end near South Bronx High. And, IMO, the tracks themselves need to be tested for "shelling," since they've been exposed to the elements for so long.
It is inactive, though not offically abandoned. CSX took over all bronx & queens former CR operations. The oak point link is used by both CSX runs to oak point and harlem river (trash trains) and CP Rail (to fresh pond in queens - they were granted access for competitive purposes).
The old branch has height and car length restrictions. The new link has some height restrictions, but will eventually be cleared for 19' once all bridges over it are finished rebuilding. car length is no problem. The link also rids the need of crossing all MN mainline tracks, run around, etc.
I can understand the height restrictions (I see that the tunnel is low when passing over it on the #2), but why the car legnth restrictions?
...does VIA rail substitute their crews for the American crews, or do they uncouple the Amtrak engine for the VIA engine?
Two years ago, I took the Maple Leaf to Toronto. At Niagara Falls, Ontario the crews changed but the loco's remained the same. This may have been an exception but I have also seen other AMTRAK locos from Montreal and through London to Sarnia.
Two years ago, I took the Maple Leaf to Toronto. At Niagara Falls, Ontario the crews changed but the loco's remained the same. This may have been an exception but I have also seen other AMTRAK locos from Montreal and through London to Sarnia.
It depends on the situation, mostly the hours of service act.
On the Adirondack, a crew takes the train to Albany. A new crew takes the train all the way to Montreal, spends the night and comes back to Albany the next day.
When Amtrak ran the Montrealer, the Amtrak crew ran as far as Saint Albans. A CN crew (no change in engines) took the train into Montreal.
The Amtrak crew rested in St. Albans (8 hours off) and returned to work around 8 p.m. (?) for the return trip to Palmer, MA, where another crew took the train in New Haven.
If the Amtrak crew went into Montreal, they wouldn't have enough time off to rest before working the return trip.
Michael
When I rode the "Maple Leaf" in Apr. 2001, the equipment ran thru, but the dinette craw AND INVENTORY changed at Niagra Falls, Ont.
When I rode the "International" in the early '90's, a Via LRC loco hauled Amtrak Superliners, but I think that was done every other day. At some times in the past, Via and Amtrak each supplied one set of coaches. (The LRC locos that VIA supplied may have been the ones that were tried out on Amtrak long ago, and still had Amtrak's 480 volt head end power.) The snack bar attendent and the inventory worked thru, but the prices changed from Canadien to American dollars at the border. In most cases, you needed less American than Canadien money to buy the same stuff, due to the exchange rate - but I noticed that Molson beer was more expensive in U.S. dollars. The attendent said that was because in Ontario, it was a cheep domestic beer, and in Michigan, it was an expensive imported beer!
When I rode the "Montrealer in Feb., 1990, the sleeping and dining car crews worked thru, and some of the supplies for the whole trip, like cartons of milk, were made in Canada.
When I rode the "Adirondak" in Feb., '94 the loco ran thru. In earlier times, when Turboliners were used, the whole train had to run thru, and I don't think a Canadien loco was added to tow it!
VIA engines don't enter the US unless the Amtrak engine is disabled in Canada. VIA cars never cross the border anymore.
I don't know about the Vancouver Talgo, but the Adirondack's Amtrak crew goes thru. The Maple Leaf and International are pooled with VIA.
The Maple Leaf gets VIA food service and train crews at Niagara Falls, ONT. The International has Amtrak food service to Toronto, but a VIA train crew at Port Huron, MI.
Here's the study I referred to in another thread on stadiums. I'm paraphrasing a summary of its findings from the NY Times (link to original article below).
"The Economics of Sports Facilities and Their Communities," by John Siegfried of Vanderbilt University and Andrew Zimbalist of Smith College, appeared in the Summer 2000 issue of The Journal of Economic Perspectives.
They conclude stadiums do not generate enough revenue to cover their cost of construction. First, if they did, owners would pay for construction themselves.
Second, to justify government subsidies, a stadium must generate enough economic activity to offset the subsidies. But individuals' spending at the ballpark is offset by reductions elsewhere. A person's total budget for leisure activities is largely inflexible, so $$$ spent at the ballpark are offset by fewer $$$ spent on movies or concerts, playing golf or dining out.
This substitution effect is generally ignored in the studies done by stadium owners to show how much economic activity a stadium generates.
Robert Baade of Lake Forest College and Allen Sanderson of the University of Chicago found that adding new stadiums had no net effect on employment in 10 cities between 1958 and 1993. Other studies note that ballplayers actually spend most of their (increasingly high) salaries outside the home city. Just 29% of pro basketball players have permanent homes near the cities where they play.
As for NYC, the money Giuliani wanted to give to the Yanks and the Mets would increase school spending by $1,000 *per pupil* ... or cover the entire FDNY annual budget.
I'm convinced. No funding for stadiums!
TRANSIT CONTENT: I am, however, in favor of funding for a Yankee Stadium stop on the Metro North Hudson line. It's a no-brainer.
(Here's the link to the New York Times article that summarized the studies. Registration is required!)
could i ask a question about stadiums with { on topic } rail transit systems going to them ..
thankz ..
You don't need to ask permission, if it's trasnit related, it's all you, my man.
TRANSIT CONTENT: I am, however, in favor of funding for a Yankee Stadium stop on the Metro North Hudson line. It's a no-brainer.
I can't imagine why such an obvious thing wasn't built years ago.
I have uploaded the third album of 36 thumbnails of my scanned 35 mm slides, covering from Sept 1980 to Oct 1983.
Great photos, Bob. I enjoy them all!
Chaohwa
Many thanks for the photos.
any word on when PATH will be needing Engineers and C/Rs? I would like to apply for such positions.
Hi there,
I frequently read posts but have never posted myself. This morning I was struck with something though and thought this would be a good place to ask.
On the uptown local N/R/W track at Times Square (towards the "rear", when you come down the stairs at the 39th street entrance) there is always tons of water - especially after heavy rains. I would assume this heavy flow of water could not be good for the overall integrity of the structure. For example - steal beams are VERY corroded, and there must be some sort of impact on the concrete. I'm sure there are other locations on the subway where this is taking place.
So my question - is there any kind of negative impact caused by all this water flow into the station?
I'm no engineer but you have to figure that constant water flow over a lengthy period of time has a deleterious effect on underground structures. You yourself noted corrosion on the steel support beams and water flow erodes and weakens concrete. Water flow is a problem at many underground stations and sometimes NYCT simply cannot find the source(s) of the leakages.
On the uptown local N/R/W track at Times Square (towards the "rear", when you come down the stairs at the 39th street entrance) there is always tons of water - especially after heavy rains. I would assume this heavy flow of water could not be good for the overall integrity of the structure. For example - steal beams are VERY corroded, and there must be some sort of impact on the concrete.
The TA has been slowly and systematically moving through the system and fixing station leaks. One of the worst was the 1986 "renovation" of the 23rd Street Lex IRT station. A couple of years ago, they opened up one sidewalk at a time, excavated, repaired, sealed and replaced concrete ... and seem to have completely fixed the leaks.
Don't know the particulars, or whether it's groundwater or actual broken pipes. Probably a mix of both. But the leak-fixing program is similar to the grate-rebuild program where they rebuilt all the ventilation gratings along the Broadway BMT in the 20s & 30s ... two of the many TA capital programs that are hardly glamorous, cost a ton of $$$ but are crucial to maintain an early 20th century system through the 21st and into the 22nd century.
As for Time Square, given the amount of above-ground work being done for the station rebuild ($100 million, did I hear?), I'm sure those leaks will be fixed. They haven't done much on the BMT platforms yet, just the mezzanines. I'm sure the platforms will get done once the leaks are fixed.
Chambers Street BMT is a fairly stark example of the damage that water can cause.
You can include Canal and Bowery in on that also.
ESPECIALLY Canal, even now, after the renovation of the lower level (Q), and (W) platforms.
Yeah the formally abandoned station is always full of water trickling throught the ceiling, and rolling down some of the stairways. Although we have to remember why the street is called "Canal"
Yeah, I know, I know :-D One time, during a MASSIVE rain storm, rain was pouring into the tunnel just north of Canal (on the N/R section) on the Southbound trackway. But again, we know why it's called Canal Street...duhhhhh :-P
Stuart
The Lenox line has a lot of problems with water in the tunnels, doesnt it?
The cross-avenue tunnel that the (2) and (3) use to reach the Lenox section of the line was closed for the better part of '99 (IIRC) due to the water damage.
It takes years for a serious structural problem to develop,
but a service-affecting track defect can crop up after only
a few months of a water condition on the roadbed. This is especially
true for Type-II track where the concrete is being used for
gauge restraint and vertical support. Water also works wonders
for track circuits. One of the benefits of type I (conventional
ballasted track) is drainage. Sadly, most of the Type I track is
being obliterated in the system.
I thought they were doing it the other way around, so the system could have better drainage during heavy raining in the water-logged areas.........guess naught.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Several track foremen I've spoken with report ongoing conversions
of Type I track to Type II(m)
This is also a problem in other cities. Particularly, DC has lots of problems with water in the deep bored tunnels on the Red line between Dupont Circle and approximately Bethesda as well as some of the newer Green line stations in the mid-city section. Ironic that much, much newer systems haven't necessarily done much better when it comes to water damage.
Check out this article at the Washington Post that gives a fairly good overview of the dangers of water damage.
I've noticed that the IND tunnels seem to leak alot more than the IRT tunnels. I think they used more waterproofing when they built the IRT.
I saw a train of R32 cars on the R today.
Also, I haven't seen any on the F in a while.
I've been seeing R32s on the (F) as recently as Friday. Not since Dec 16 have I seen an R32 on the (G)(R) or (V).
:-) Andrew
Saw this R32 on the "R" on January 5, drawn up as follows:
3456-57, 3826-27, 3392-93, 3479-78, 3552-53 (ex-Pitkin yard).
wayne
Had 3851 on Friday afternoon on the F. Also had 3444 last Tuesday.
#3444 Culver Local
I wonder if #3777 (#3444's lovely mate) said "Culver Express" :o)
wayne
IIRC the R-32s no longer include "express" or "local" designations on their side route signs any more. I would imagine their F signs say something like, "F-Queens Blvd-6th Ave.-Culver".
That is exactly what it says. I saw 4 of them signed up for the F (with the right destinations) on board a 179th St bound E.
I saw one on the R today at DeKalb Avenue a little after 3.
R-36: Its nice to see someone using the nickname for the equiptment. Say this much for the Redbirds they kept their name even after the TA tried to call them Silver Foxes. The R-32's and 32A's really were "Brightliners" when they were new. How about the "Silverliners",the R-38's?.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Or, you could just the R-38's 'RuffRyderz'. (especially after riding a 'brightliner')
They're still very bright. But GOH took away their beauty.
You can say that again. No more blue doors or bulkhead roller curtains.
For the long suffering O gauge Subway fans, MTH has done the expected. According to the MTH Website, as of this AM, there will be a 1 month delay in the release of the R-17s in either version. Shipping will be (according to MTH) on 2/15/02.
In the meantime, if you can't wait and if you don't get nose bleeds from the sky-high prices, there are at least 4 Subway sets on sale on E-Bay.
Steve,
I'm foaming at the mouth. Those damned delays!!! I'm ready to go and get a set of 17s for my enjoyment.....
-Stef
Better reserve one with your local dealer. If the R-21s are any indicator, unless the dealer is going to try to gouge like one Long Island Dealer who's asking $500 for the redbirds, the'll sell out very fast
How does this faucet work? It saids push up. Do you have to push it up from the bottom or pull it from the top?
Oh boy! More theories of why Americans can't construct passenger equipment.
Even more why they can't use them.
Are you sure it doesn't say "FLUSH" rather than "Push Up"????
Scroll to the right. the sign is over the sink.
Judging by the looks, you have to lift it up.
I'm guessing you figured it out if you took this photo: "Is this blue stuff..."
:-)
JR
I don't use anything other than AE much anymore but IIRC, you push down.
Perhaps we can add another discussion group called ToiletTalk?
Or, for Britrail fans, WCWeb.
:0)
Loo Chat perhaps?
WC in London town, hmmmm.....
I'll join as long as I can put my 20p in. :p)
wayne
How histories greatest seem to disappear: Thomas Edison, Jonathan Browning, Nicola Tesla, Edwin Armstrong and Thomas Crapper (for those not familiar with modern household engineering, he invented the practical and most compact 'water closet' flushing toilet mechanism still in use today on a more 'down to earth' scale.) CI Peter, Master Redbird Flusher!
Sounds good to me
I have been searching this whole train, looking for INCA GOLD.
You gotta go to the Clive Cussler forum for INCA GOLD.
You didn't get it-- go to www.incagoldonline.com
BTW, Inca Gold is the BLUE STUFF!!!
Okay, I knew I heard the name elsewhere.....seen it in transit industry trade journals!!!!
But there IS a book by the name of "Inca Gold" by Clive Cussler. He's one of my favorite fiction authors.
Perhaps we can add another discussion group called ToiletTalk?
If that name's taken, there are some alternatives:
Potty Palaver
Bocazzo Babblings
Donicker Discussions
You've been thinking about that for a while, haven't you? :-)
Sometimes our best thinking sessions get done on the throne....
WC Fields, of course!
GARDY LOO!
wayne
Rim shot!!
You guys need a hobby!!!
Forgot, we already have one.
And hold meetings in Flushing.
Double rim shot!!
I had to throw that in.:-)
>>> Do you have to push it up from the bottom or pull it from the top? <<<
Didn't you try it when you took the picture? I think they mean what is written. You put your hands under the faucet head an push up on a plunger to have water cascade over your hands. When you move your hands away, the water stops. The liquid soap on the right is so you can lather your hands with soap first, then rinse the soap away. This insures the use of the minimum amount of water for hand washing.
Tom
Is there a map of the intended lines of the second Contract, that were suspended due to the start of WW2? I wold be interested in seeing what this would ahve looked like...
M
I could be wrong about this , but I believe "Contract 2" was finnished well before the war. This was just the extensions of the IRT "Contract 1" lines in Manhattan and into the Bronx. It might have included the first Brooklyn IRT stations too. The Queens IRT had to wait for Contract 3 or 4 or maybe even 5 (by which time I believe they were into "Dual Contracts" era.)
I think you probbably mean the "IND Second Systyem", of which very, very little was ever built. Look under the "IND" section, accessible from the main page of this site or http://www.nycsubway.org/ind There is at least one link to it there.
:-) Andrew
I thought contract 2 was the IRT extention into Brooklyn? Extentions on that was the line continuing down Fulton St and maybe onto Lafayette and the lower level at Nevins St that would have gone to the Manhattan Bridge. Maybe at Atlantic there were extentions planned.
BTW, Was the IRT planning to connect to the 4th Ave line?
There were provisions to tie into the 4th Ave. line from the IRT Brooklyn line, IIRC. When the BRT was awarded operating rights, it became a moot point.
From where on the IRT??
It would have been from Atlantic Avenue according to Joe CUnningham.
Phase II was due to Oct 1929, not WWII.
Is this blue stuff mixed in with water or is it a totally seperate chemical by itself? Personally I always wondered about that but have yet to find a definate answer.
At least you didn't take a picture while the color was green. :) Where is this, anyway?
I'm 99% sure it's diluted with water. It would cost too much to have that much of a chemical by itself. The chemical added is probably like 2000 Flushes.
Where is this, anyway?
Judging by the looks, Its the Acela Express lavatory.
Could be an LIRR C-3
The soap bottle has the new logo.
The soap bottle has the new logo.
I missed that!
Anyway, the bathrooms on the new LIRR bilevels are much better than anything they had previously, although I have seen a couple of "renovated" M-1/3 restrooms lately.
That is NOT the Acela Express. Note the different colors in that photo and http://www.geocities.com/otpamtrakpics/acela15.jpg.
Then what car has that lavatory?
Forget it I know now.
Uh...is this remotely on topic? Not that I have anything against off-topic stuff (I'm an offender, after all), but uh...this is a bizzare thing to find out on a rail transit message board.
:-) Andrew
Judging by the messages, It's On topic (Because it's the Acela express lavatory.
It isn't AE, see my other response.
Well, it's on a train (of course he could have been on a 767 taking the picture - who would know the difference)?
:0)
Too much room in the compartment for it to be a Boening....
Yes. It is a bathroom on board a train.
Judging by the looks, Its water and a chemical of some sort.
It least someone did not ask about the "honey wagon" that are used with LIRR rolling stock since the M-1's started sevice in 1969.
That's what it's called around an airport, too.....a Honey Wagon.
Hint: the Honey Wagon is not what you pick up a date in.
This is a new one. Was the trip that boring that you took a picture of the lavoratory?
This is now your second post involving the Acela toilets. See also: "How does this work?"
Why are you spending so much time in there with a camera?
Although, I must say that this is the prettiest toilet I've seen on a train.
JR
I could toss out a few theories as to WHY he was in the bathroom with a camera, but this is a G rated board, so I won't say ;)
yikes.
>>> I could toss out a few theories as to WHY he was in the bathroom with a camera <<<
Make sure the theories account for failing to discover how the sink faucet works. :-)
Tom
That could be any Amtrak car. The Acela Express bathroom is very different.
This is a bathroom on an amfleet coach. Acela Regional.
That was the ADA stall ;)
My point being it was not the AE as Ry-Trans-it posted numerous times.
I now admit that it's a Amfleet.
As I recall, the Blue stuff they add to the water in plane and train toilets is a dye. In case the storage tanks of excrement and urine ever leak, and you are hangin around outside and see the big lumpy blue puddle, the dye identifies it. If you see the blue dye, its supposed to identify it as waste rather than rain water.
Okay, I used to work for an airline, so I guess I can speak from experience.
We used to put clear water into the crapper tanks on the airplanes...five gallons in each tank. Then we'd go upstairs, drop in a gelatin packet with blue crystals in it, and hit the flush button. It would dissolve the gelatin and turn the contents (i.e. the new water) in the tank to that funny shade of blue.
That crystalline stuff int he gelatine packet stains like it's going out of style. You didn't want to handle it with wet hands....but invariably you'd get it somewhere on you. It was a royal pain in the ass to get off your hands once it stained your skin.
I have no idea of how many operating cars each division has in service on a standard weekday. Seems like B Division has more trackage but higher headways, whereas A Division has less track but more trains.
So, how many cars in each Division? Someone's gotta know ... thanks.
According to Joe Korman's website there are 2953 cars on Division A, with 2558 available for service and 2221 needed for maximum service. There are 3230 cars on Division B, 2937 available for service and 2764 required for maximum service.
Link enclosed:
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/0102/0113martadeath.html
It doesn't say that the homeless man was sleeping on the tracks when he was hit. It just states that he was hit in the tunnel.
I personally like the title of the link to the left:
•Phone books
even harder to
read.
Leave it to Atlanta...
JR
I'm glad it was a weekend, it might have messed up my commute.
[phonebooks]
BellSouth calls the new font "compressed" (ie, smaller). They did it to save trees. I haven't seen the new books yet, so I don't know what they are like.
From what I heard, he was taking a nap on the tracks...
lets setup a hotel on the tracks!
From what I heard, he was taking a nap on the tracks...
"Hmmm, let's see, where can I take a nap in this dark tunnel today? Maybe I should sleep in that emergency doorway? Nooo, someone might come through there. Maybe that nice space between the northbound and southbound trains? Nooo, the wind from the passing trains may blow my hat off. I know, I'll rest my head against this nice, soft rail..."
What was he thinking?!?
And the Darwin award goes to...
JR
Maybe he was sleeping between the north and southbound tracks, but rolled over in his sleep and rolled a bit too far.
"The ground feels cold and metallic, where's my damn blanket...*crunch*"
Maybe they should run ads in Atlanta that state:
DRINKING AND SLEEPING BETWEEN TRACKS JUST DOESN'T MIX.
This past Sat. I spotted A 143 on the new test track on flats north of the Broad Channel Station. I took a pic from the Cross Bay Blvd. side of the track. However I cannot seem to post these pics, can someone help.
If you want you could email it to me for permanent inclusion on the site; or you could just put it in your own web space as described in another thread today.
I saw it at Broad Channel. It can into the station, changed ends and went back north again.
Quick! What's the first thing you see in this picture?
Easy --
Malbone St.
-- Ed Sachs
Heypaul's R-9 cab in the tunnel on the far right????
Am I even close?
Malbone St. wreck (I swear I didn't peek at the other answers first!)
I bet that place has seen a lot of stiffs.
Alan Glick
Wasn't RORSCHACH on Welcome Back Kotter ?
Seriously,
Is that someone with a white shirt in the tunnel ?
Bill "Newkirk"
This is the infamous portal where the Malbone St. wreck took place on Friday, November 1st 1918.
#3 West End Jeff
It's the famous Hippo caves < G >
Mr rt__:^)
Does that portal still exist today and does it serve any line or has it been boarded up?
According to SelkirkTMO that tunnel leads to the secret hideout where I park my Chrysler 300 and plot my next move against evil doers to the BMT system....;-D
Dang! Now that you've *BLABBED* about it, Sea Bits Fred will be on the prowl looking to commandeer that sucker, throw it in reverse and take out the Brighton line so everybody will have to ride that damned number 4 train. Heh. Devil made me do it. :)
Fred can't touch the BMTmobile -- it will self destruct within five seconds upon his grabbing the door handle....;-D
Aha ... you JUST gave away the secret! The stick shift is connected DIRECTLY to a D type group box! Nice touch! :)
Damn, I knew there was a catch to it. Come on Doug, we will have to retool in order to snare that Selkirk guy.
And the moral of the story ... never mess with a guy who has train tools AND a spike puller! Wonder what happened to the Sea bits and why it no longer goes to Stillwell? Nyah-ah-ah says Snidley Selkirk Whiplash! :)
Don't mess with Bullwinkle Fred or you will be in a heap of trouble Snidley.
Oh HORSE ... I KNEW you'd unnerstand. Check out the "subway demo derby" diversion - it was going kinky and I decided to spark the field shunting on it. Heh.
Now you be good, or we propose the Sea Bits line instead of the ones selected by our panel of judges who just passed out in the porcelain facility ... moo.
Wait a minute. Snidely was Dudley Do-Right's arch enemy.
If I could get Sea Beach 53, N man, and West End Jeff to join me, it would be one hell of an idea. Too bad I didn't think of it first.
Sounds like a hell of a place to put Selkirk, IRT Man, don't you think?
In addition to BMTman's post, which describes its true meaning, both portals are in use. The left for regular servie, the right occasionally.
Up until 1957 or 58, when the crossover (part of which is visible in the picture) was installed, Franklin Shuttle trains reversed south of Prospect Park station, crossing over the mainline Brighton tracks in the process.
I can remember watching, and waiting, from the railfan window of a southbound Brighton local while a Franklin shuttle train crossed over.
-- Ed Sachs
How long did such a routine take? Did they use a second motorman, or did the same fellow walk from one end of the train to the other?
The cycle took about four minutes, I would say. The Shuttle train would leave Prospect Park going south just after a Brighton had passed and layover just south of the switches on one of the southbound tracks. Then the motorman (just one) would walk the train--it was just three cars. As soon as the NEXT southbound Brighton passed, the shuttle would return north and cross over to the shuttle northbound track.
At the time that this practice was stopped, it was a nuisance for many people, because it was still common for shuttle riders going south to continue south on the Brighton Line. This meant that riders who used to have an across-the-platform transfer now had to crossover to the other side.
Just in case you don't know Fred, there are a couple sets of Hippos assigned to the Franklin Shuttle that normally use the left portal, however on Christmas day some SubTalkers said they saw a set on the southbound local track that had just used the right portal. Maybe they had too much Christmas spirits ????
Mr rt__:^)
They probably figured they had nothing to fear with those cars.
Those cars WERE there ... as it turns out, a friend in the southern division with the ability to provide a car order had set those aside for a nonrevenue trip through the Malbone tunnel. Unfortunately I was already out of the house when the email came in advising me that it was there for us. Don't want to get anybody in trouble though so let's just say that it was there on unofficial business that day. Only wish I knew it was waiting for US ...
I rode through the right portal last year. A GO was in effect that had the northbound platform at Prospect Park closed (D and Q trains bypassed the station).
I've never ridden a 75' car through that tunnel. Gotta be a tight squeeze.
Not particularly. IINM, it isn't terribly sharp compared to other curves around the system.
Hillary Clinton's new hideout. Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up. So tell me, tell me, is that the Malbone accident of decades ago?
I'm worse off than BMTman ... first thing I saw was ghosts walking out of the tunnel ... or at least four "silhouettes" at the Y. Yow. Gotta change my terbacky. Heh.
Edward Luciano wearing a reflective vest in the tunnel.
--mark
Paul, if you ask me what's the second thing I see in the picture, I'd have to say E. Virgil Conway laying across the southbound track....
sorry...
This morning aboard the Red Line:
(Arriving Medical Center)
"This is Medical Center, doors open left side. This train will be going out of service at Grosvenor. All customers must leave the train. Passengers wishing to continue to Shady Grove must exit the train and wait for the train destination sign 'Shady Grove'."
(The doors open)
"Red line to Grosvenor, last stop."
(Doors close, train begins to leave station)
"Next station, Grosvenor. This train will be going out of service at Grosvenor Station. (long pause) All customers must leave the train. Customers are reminded to check for all personal belongings when leaving the train."
(We finally enjoy some silence, until the train passes under the bridge over the tracks from the mezzanine to the bus bays)
"This is Grosvenor, doors open left side. (T/O turns off interior lights, this is an outdoor station but the lack of lights is quite an annoyance) This train is now out of service. All customers must leave the train. Customers are reminded to check for all personal belongings when leaving the train. Customers wishing to continue to Shady Grove must exit the train and wait for the train destination sign 'Shady Grove'."
(Doors open, T/O now starts flashing lights on and off)
"This train is out of service. All customers must leave the train at this time. Thank you."
Now, how many times must one announce the train is going out of service? The first announcements is just outright confusing. We aren't at the last station, why tell us the train is going out of service? Even I get confused by this since I know some trains skip stations and do other things in order to maintain their schedules, especially towards the end of the run. Then, once we leave Medical Center, please don't tell us the same message 3 times. Once is enough. Hardly anyone is on the train anyway so it isn't like they can't hear. Lastly, don't turn the lights off. I am not nocturnal, if I choose to walk the length of the car because I want to be closer to the exit since my bus is going to leave in about 4 minutes, I would like some light to guide me by. There isn't much natural light at 7:30 AM.
Anyone wish to comment on the confusing and redundant announcements this T/O makes every time I catch her train?
One time when I was on the Orange Line to Vienna a few years ago, we were entering the station and it was dark out. The Operator announced about 20 times in rapid fire that the train was out of service and flashed the interior lights on and off enough times to make me think I was on Club Metro or something. A few people on my car yelled out, We know ***hole!" I just wanted to go home.
I once heard a T/O on the Red Line get to Shady Grove and it was going to the yard and he announced this:
"Out of service, Out of service, Out of service, Out of service, Out of service, OUT OF SERVICE! This train is out of service! Thank you!"
That sounds exactly like the guy on the Orange Line. Its possible they rotate lines. This was back in '97 that I had the light show at Vienna.
This is why WMATA sucks. Hell, during the #4 line's terminating at Atlantic, the T/O didn't say anything until we got to Atlantic (where it is hard to exchange for a local that continues to New Lots). How's that for non-redundance?
Everytime during midday when the 4 terminated at Atlantic, they always said something at Nevins. I don't think they waited until Atlantic. They would usually want the passengers to have the easier transfer so they get less complaints.
The TA never bothered posting this GO on the web site, either (this time around). It's easy enough to figure out from experience (if the 1 terminates at Utica, the 4 can't terminate there also), but explicit mention would be nice.
It's pretty necessary for the conductor to repeatedly, and loudly, announce the train is out of service, especially at last stops where everyone must discharge (Continental, 179th, Smith-9th, Bowling Green, 205th, Utica, Brooklyn Bridge, Euclid, Pacific). There's always the chance someone's sleeping.
The conductor on an outbound PM weekday Flushing train at Queensboro Plaza will repeat "express" up to six times. That still doesn't stop people both on the platform and the train from asking if this is a local. I say if they don't listen to the same announcement repeated that many times, they deserve to miss their stop.
The flashing lights are a signal to the deaf that the train is out of service. I remember reading a Bob Levy column in the Washington Post. A deaf person rode to into the yard, through no fault of their own.
Also, the repetitious announcements are also for the benefit for people on the platform. Washington cars have loud speakers on the outside of the car. (I don't think it's every car.)
Michael
Oh, I definitely understand the flashing of the lights. I think its a great idea. However, flashing them to mimic a strobe light was a little excessive, especially since we weren't in the station yet and people were trying to gather their things. Overall, the metro operators are very good. One even held the door for a few seconds extra to let my mother, who uses a cane get off the escalator at White Flint and lumber on to his train after he'd been in there and ready to roll. I wasn't with her, but that kind of stuff is nice to hear.
You flash the lights a few times after making good annnouncements. Don't turn them off and then flash them, especially after that awful announcement routine. Do you want people to hate taking your train?
I remember once, probably at least 10 years ago, there was a big delay for one reason or another during the PM rush hour at Penn Station. The LIRR was announcing "Due to an Amtrak train stuck in the tunnel, all LIRR trains are subject to delays - please listen for announcements". So I went up to the Amtrak level and their announcement was something like "Due to heavy congestion with LIRR trains, all Amtrak trains are experiencing delays"!
WMATAGMOAGH, do you remember when you rode MARTA and approching northbound to Lindbergh Center on the N/S? Everytime, the annoucements go like this:
Ladies and gentlemen, this is a Doraville train. This train will be stopping at Lenox, Brookhaven, Chamblee and Doraville. If you are going to Buckhead, Medical Center, Dunwoody, Sandy Springs and North Springs, please get off at Lindbergh Center and wait for the next train marked North Springs. I repeat, this train will be stopping at Lenox, Brookhaven, Chamblee and Doraville. This is a Doraville train. Next stop Lindbergh.
Then, at the station:
This is a Dorvaille train, next stop Lenox.
And the sad part is, even with the nice and visible destination signs, some people still ask what train this is. Mainly the occansional riders, the everyday riders know. Going southbound, it's a lot more simple:
Next stop Lindbergh Center, transfer on the opposite platfrom for your North Springs train. Lindbergh Center is next
On the E/W, they do it right:
This is your two car Bankhead train, transfer here for service to HE Holmes
They weren't redundant announcements. I think it is perfectly to give a detailed announcement before arriving and then a brief reminder at the station. She repeated the same thing 4 times and she did it even before we left the station before the last one.
After all those redundant announcements,I'll bet there was still one person who got up and asked "Is this the last stop"?lol
That's for all the people who don't listen. He was probably thinking ahead :D
Just about everyone who reverse commutes at that time who is going past Grosvenor either
a. waits for a Shady Grove train
b. knows the train is going out of service
If it was some weekend, I could see some logic in the redundancy. Not at 7:30 AM on a weekday morning.
I just have one question:
On the broadway local, just south of Whitehall, there are two trackways that branch-off south just before the Nassau st. tunnel merge (you can see them on the left side {while facing forward} on a southbound N or R train). Does anybody know what that was supposed to be (considering that what would have been the 'northbound trackway' crosses the N/R southbound at grade level, and it's headed for the tip of southern manhattan, I'm betting it's a mistake.)
Does someone want to write a FAQ on this for the site? It gets asked just about every other week. Thanks.
Sorry. I haven't been here in months.
Anyways, could you answer the question?
They're apparently just headings for a different tunnel alignment to Brooklyn. Nothing as fancy as Staten Island-bound tunnels. Why they changed their minds? Dunno.
That's what I thought it would be. Thanks.
draft FAQ please correct/amplify
Bellmouths, and future routings
Most transit systems in the US were designed to serve more areas than they do at present. Thus when originally laid out, bellmouths and other structural provisions for future routes and stations were built so as not to have to rebuild those segments when the newe routes were finally built. This practice was not limited to New York, although more examples exist here than in all of the other cities in the US.
New York
BMT
Just south of Whitehall St, there are 'portals' for a possible alternate tunnel to Brooklyn. Contrary to some rumors, this was not a provision for a route to Staten Island.
South of 59th Street on the Fourth Avenue Subway, there are extra bridges over the Bay Ridge segment of the ex PRR. These were for a possible route to Staten Island.
North of 57th St in Manhattan. At one time, before the IND, there were vague plans to extend the BMT tunnel into Central Park to the NW to run under CPW. Those stubs were later reconstructed to become the line east through the Park and the 60th Street tube to Queens
IND As the most optimisticly envisioned system, there are many examples of 'provisions' for extensions, branches etc. See the Second System page for a more comprehensive account of the plans. There are provisions for a Worth Street limk across lower Manhattan from the area of the original 'Hudson Terminal'' station.
Moving east there are bellmouths and track ramps in the Chrystie Street complex for the fabled Second Avenue Subway.
Traveling Queensbound from 57th Street & Sixth Ave there are bellmouths for connections to the Second Ave line.
Proceeding toward Queens there are bellmouths for the fabled 'super express' via Sunnyside and some LIRR ROW.
Along the Queens Boulevard Line there are ramps and bellmouths for the 'Roosevelt' Line See Roosevelt Station page for pictures.
PATH
At the East/North end of the Ninth Street station on the 33rd Street Line there is the bellmouth for a potential extension variously described as headed toward Astor Place and/or Grand Central
Terry Kennedy has maps showing a potential branch to the then operational CRR of NJ Jersey City Station
Chicago
As originally built the State Street tunnels included provisions for continuing south of Roosevelt Road rather than using the ramp up to what is now the Green Line (one time South Side Rapid Transit). Those provisions were utilised toconnect the State St line to the Dan Ryan median when the Red Line changed routes. In the Dearborn Subway just west of the Clark/Lake Station there are bellmouths for perhaps the Lake Street route.
Where the Dearborn Tunnel emerges into the Congress(Eisenhower) median there are four portals as if more tracks were ecpected. AFAIK these portals dead end almost immediately as a stillborn project.
Cleveland
When the Cleveland Terminal / Public Square project was begun in the 1920's, the layout of the track level included extra portals and space for several peojected transit/trolley lines. When the Cleveland Rapid (now the Red Line) was constructed in the mid 1950/s they used the existing Shaker Heights alignment(Green, Blue Lines). There are still vestiges of these provisions although future lines are unlikely.
While not strictly a 'bellmouth' the Green Line in Cleveland has a graded but never tracked potential extension of over a mile.
Philadelphia
The Broad Street Sunway conceived and built in the era of the IND shared some of the optimism. While used today as relay tracks there were provisions for a Roosevelt Boulevard branch--which is now again being studied. In connection with this there is a rumored station shell in the basement of a Sears store aslong Roosevelt.
Thanks, I'll be adding to the FAQ..
Excellent work, sir.
I curious about the Chicago Congress "portals." Would these be alternate south/west exits from the Dearborn St. Subway? If so, where might you (or others here) speculate that these could have gone and where else might the Congress line have been alternately routed? Any theories?
South of 59th Street on the Fourth Avenue Subway, there are extra bridges over the Bay Ridge segment of the ex PRR. These were for a possible route to Staten Island.
The whole 4th Ave line to 95th Street was built with provisions to become a 4-track line. The local tracks swinging outward and then back inward near 59th Street were provisions for a Staten Island connection. Supposedly, 86th St was meant to be the next express stop and there are bricked-over cutouts in today's Manhattan-bound wall that would lead to a second set of tracks. This second set would have eben the Manhattan-bound tracks; the current tracks would be the Bay Ridge-bound tracks.
--Mark
Can someone out please tell me how to post pics on this site, to share with the rest of Subtalk?
Like this (img src="URL of your pic")
replace () with <> and it should work.
You ca also adjust the height and width like so (img src="URL" height="100" width="100") will give you a pic of 100x100.
You can also create a hyperpic, that is a picture that doubles up as a hyperlink. Its done like this:
(a href="url")(img src="URL") replace () with <>
This page has some great info
OOPS..........here is the right page
I didn't think the other link was incorrect :)
--Mark
First, you need to put them on the internet. If you don't have free web hosting by your internet service provider, go to www.geocities.com and sign up for an account. The details should tell you how to upload pictures.
When you have a link to the picture, it might be something like
http://geocities.com/myname/blah.jpg
to put it in a post, add the following line:
[img src=http://geocities.com/myname/blah.jpg]
but replace the square brackets with angled ones (the ones above the comma and period keys)
Good luck.
Can't remote load from Geocities, the pics won't appear here.
You can, but it takes a little trick....
rename the file from "picture.jpg" to "picture.jpg.x"
Example:
I suppose I should've mentioned this in my earlier post
Does that work with other free web site companies like Angelfire or Lycos?
I don't know, but it probably could. Geocities is the only one I've tried it with so far.
It didn't work with my angelfire account. As you see I got the angelfire logo instead of an R17 when I tried to post "http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/R17.jpg.x"
>>> got the angelfire logo instead of an R17 when I tried to post "http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/R17.jpg.x" <<<
But when I dropped the final ".x" from the URL address, the picture of what appears to be the future heir near the open door of an R-17 loaded immediately without any annoying banner advertizing.
Tom
try sony station ...
lol!
One thing I would like to add to the others' comments is to make sure that the pictures are of a reasonable size so that they don't take too long for those with dial-up modems to load and also that they fit reasonably on the screen. I find that 800x600 pictures saved in a medium JPEG quality end up being about right.
I used to know how to do it somehow it stays on for a while then goes away !! Y i do not know ...lol!!
lets see if this works !
lets see if this works ......hmmmmmm?
LOL??
Nope. Try again.
webshots on exite .... dont use em they R a bummer !!!
Use the "preview" button to test our your links please!
--Mark
yes you are right .. & i agree with you 100%...
@ however the WEBSHOTS ( exite ) was down & or doing some repairs so my photos go in and out ... i think they are back on line..yahoo photos dont seem to last long however...
south pasadena gold line light rail construction project
MAYBE MY PHOTO BANK IS FIXED NOW
lol !!!
Here's the exact error messsage I just got:
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /storage/1/v0/3/14/27/27731427fMfgWraxrv_ph.jpg on this server.
Apache/1.3.14 Server at community6.webshots.com Port 80
Comments?
!!!
damn !! what happened to my pic ??
it worked when i checked it last !!
i did not have this problem before .....
!!!!!!!!..........??
i guess i will have to go back to my sony site
maybe this will hold ...
it did hold .. from now on my sony site ...
Good. We all enjoy your excellent shots!!!
thanz..& whatever U do do not upload from exite "webshots"
i did try loading from yahoo & it punked out ....lol!!
make sure you got your pictures loaded on a website
Post EXACTLY like this:
<img src="http://urlgoeshere">
I want to know what you think:
Assume for a moment that LIRR's new stop at Grand Central's new lowest level is ready.
If LIRR runs the following service:
Bellerose - Queens Village - Hollis - Jamaica - Kew Gardens - Forest Hills ----> Express via 63rd Street tube to Grand Central.
and runs this service every 15 minutes from 6:00AM to 8:30AM; and from 4:00PM-6:30PM
would that basically eliminate the need for a Queens Blvd bypass track super-express?
Yes, but that is non likely to be the service pattern. Few Hempstead trains run to NYP now.
Oh, I wasn't implying this would be a Hempstead train. I was proposing a train run by LIRR focused on Queens commuters who are limited to the Queens Bvd IND service. This train would not have to be a Hempstead train (ie LIRR could designate other terminations for the train).
I don't see them adding any trains to the mainline. The amount of Hunterspoint trains and some NYP trains would be diverted to 63rd.
That's an excellent point. I take it not many people getting off at Hunter's Point are NOT taking a ferry?
I should write MTA and ask if the Hunters Point Av service would be cancelled.
I'd hate to see a line abandoned. I hope that's not what it means.
From what I've heard, East Side Access would mean abandoning the Hunterspoint and LIC stations. That would be sad, but I could see how they would be seen as unnecessary.
:-( Andrew
Meaning all that track would be abandoned, too.
>> Meaning all that track would be abandoned, too. <<
Some of it could be useful for freight service.
The LIRR just spent alot of money upgrading the LIC Yard so I'm not sure they will be giving that yard up. Besides LIC and Hunterpoint is diesel territory while the ESA is electric. The ESA basically frees up track space in Penn. since those train will go to GCT. The LIRR would still use LIC to store its trains, so I can't see them getting rid of the yard or tracks.
Keep in mind that since the Rononkoma electrification, the LIRR does NOTHING to promote Hunterspoint (none of them take the ferry). Even the platforms concessions are gone which could be paying rent. The platform is dangerous with a gap that is too wide and 3rd rail on the same side. The LIRR will tell you that the mainline is run to capacity. That's BS. The Hunterspoint and several NY expresses run wrong main on the express track in the morning. They can definitely run more of them. They also never replaced the 5:17 pm from Hunterspoint when the 5:10 NYP to Babylon was extended to Speonk. It should be a local to Babylon. There was a net loss of one train between Hunterspoint and Babylon when the dual-mode was implemented.
I find it quite ironic and unacceptable that E.S.A. is not worth a dime to be spent at Hunterspoint Avenue but $11 Billion is OK for 63rd Street to the Castle/Mine under GCT.
It sounds like a good idea, but wouldn't you need a separate fare control area or a separate tiketing system (I assume you'd have to charge just a regular subway fare), to keep it apart from LIRR commuter service? Perhaps if you just make those stations (Queens Village, Hollis, Kew Gardens and Forest Hills) only accessible by this new local service, and somehow allowed Jamaica and Woodside to be serviced by both, it might work.
While we're at it, might as well also re-establish the old LIRR stations at Bellaire, Westbridge (where the LIRR crosses Jamaica Ave), Rego Park and Grand St. (now Ave.)
Thank you for mentioning those stations.
What if the LIRR didn't use separate fare control? What if they simply charged the same appropriate zone-based fares or asked for the usual passes? Would people use it?
There would probably be some demand, but not enough to warrant service every 10 minutes. One of the problems with the "super express" to Grand Central is that it only goes to one place -- Grand Central. The subway allows you to go to any number of places along the way -- hence the short headways.
There are already a few effectively Queens-only trains on the LIRR. The Port Washington branch has some locals (and expresses) that originate at Great Neck and Little Neck. I don't know about ridership on those. There's also a morning local that starts in Valley Stream and makes all stops from Rosedale to Woodside and then Penn Station. Ridership east of Jamaica generally fills most of the rear 8 cars, Kew Gardens and Forest Hills fill up the front 4 and at Penn you have a pretty full 12 car train with no standees.
CG
Agreed.
I would really like to see ESA finished, so the morning Port Washington exresses really act that way, instead of coming to a screeching halt in front of the East River waiting to be cleared into the maxed out tunnels...
It always seems to me that the Port Washington trains get first preference to enter the tunnel. I don't know how many times I've been on a train that's sat just outside the tunnel for several minumtes just to see a PW train go whizzing by!
That's funny. I always had the opposite experience. Esp. on the morning PW express runs!
Oh well...
And build an additonal Manhattan station at 59th to connect with the N,R,W,4,5,6 (just for this special Queens service).
"And build an additonal Manhattan station at 59th to connect with the N,R,W,4,5,6 (just for this special Queens service). "
Excellent. So not only are you offering access to the East side (though passengers would get that anyway at Grand Central), you are also offering an easy transfer to a west side line, much easier than having to use the Times Square Shuttle or the 7, and then having to transfer a third time.
Issues and Questions:
If the station were planned and built early: Would you then have to build that section of the LIRR line by "cut and cover?"
The LIRR tunnel is under 63rd Street, though, and need to turn south under Park Avenue. Would a reasonable station placement be at Park Avenue/59th, with a pedestrial tunnel to the 59th Street station?
How would you build this station, since the LIRR trains would be travelling underneath Metro-North trains at that point? Would you "slant" the passenger station and concourse easterly so as not to disturb the Metro-North tracks? Or would you create side platforms at the Metro-North level(s) as well? I don't remember at what street Metro-North expands from one level/4 tracks to two levels prior to entering Grand Central.
Don't know the MN track layout or the engineering issues, but you'd think you could build platforms & concourses slighlty to the east of MNRR and thus closer to Lex Ave to facilitate the subway transfer.
BTW, Ron, your idea for a special Queens service (I assume in addition to normal LIRR services into GCT) is a superb idea. I hope you use your contacts to advance this concept.
I plan to. I wonder how far MTA engineering plans have gone on ESA. I have to re-read the EIS (which is in my attic in three volumes).
Or how about a 63 St / 2nd Av Station?
Difficult to accomplish, as that's where turns from 63rd to 2nd Av are.
Arti
Difficult to accomplish, as that's where turns from 63rd to 2nd Av are.
Should be just possible.
As I understand it, the shape of the junction will be 2nd Av line under 63rd St line (at right angles). Switches will connect as follows: 63rd (West) - 2nd Av (North), 63rd (East) - 2nd Av (South).
Now, the height between levels has to be about 12 foot minimum. Subway trains can manage a grade of 1 in 50 if you are lucky. This means that the ramps must be at least 600 feet long. This means that the shortest distance from the point where the 63rd St line goes over the 2nd Av line must be 300 feet in each direction.
Everyone knows that a subway train can be a maximum of 600 feet long. By my calculations, a subway train should fit between the switches at either end of the junction and therefore theoretically a two level + shaped station is possible.
You are correct about the switch junctions. The bellmouths are, in fact, oriented to connect west-north and south-east.
And build an additonal Manhattan station at 59th
Hmmm. Except remember that the LIRR tracks will be to the WEST of the MN tracks, and you'll already have made the southward turn toward downtown by 59th Street. Not sure how you'll connect from the west side of Park Avenue over to the Lex/59th complex ....
To make this work you would have to make it "subway-like." You're part-way there with the 15 minute regular headways. But you'd need the extra stations mentioned in another post, some free transfers (perhaps via MetroCard) at Jamaica, Woodside, GCT, maybe elsewhere, and the same fare as subway. Also, you'd give it a Letter designation like a subway line and treat it as such on the Map. It would be a subway/commuter-rail hybrid, like the RER expresses in Paris.
Interesting idea...
Dead cool actually! Now, if this were the Paris RER, the next step would be to connect the services from either side of the city. Any physical or technical (rather than political) reason why the NJT lines out of Penn cannot be taken over by the LIRR?
NJ Transit operates exclusively either by overhead catenary (11,000 volt 25 Hz power if I recall correctly)or on diesel power for non-electrified lines. LIRR operates by 750V third rail (or diesel). LIRR MUs cannot operate in NJ Transit territory.
Bloody typical. Presumably an LIRR diesel would fit though?
Yes, so long as locomotive and coach dimensions are compatible (and I am confident the loco dimensions are). Bilevel coaches? Not sure.
Because of the all the fare- and transfer-related issues raised, I don't think this type of service would rightly be LIRR. However, what I think IS needed for whatever serves as a Queens superexpress and what the LIRR could offer is more speed than standard NYCT subway - newer rapid transit systems like BART and DC metro can approach 70 or 80 mph, which could really make a difference for a longer-distance superexpress run.
The point is, whether NYCT or LIRR officially run the service, it will have to be somewhat distinct to be effective...differing from standard subway service due to the speeds and station spacing and different from standard commuter rail service due to the headways, fare control, transfer ability, and flexibility of multiple destinations. Maybe there could be new tunnels/track for the stations at the eastern side in Queens that would then utilize the LIRR track for the actual express part of the trip (before 63rd St. tunnel), cutting down on the overall cost of the project. For example, the new service could use existing subway trackage east of 71/Continental and then leave the IND ROW to join LIRR all the way in to 63rd St. tunnels.
We are assuming here that a new LIRR tunnel is available - 63rd Street, and its new connector tunnels under Sunnyside Yard. That all by itself will improve headways and take certain trains in Queens "out of the way" of existing services.
As to using the Queens Blvd subway tracks east of Continental, why do you think that is necessary?
I don't think it is necessary. I just thought that faster bypass service was desired for those existing subway stations to the east of 71/Continental. That seems to be where the push for the superexpress is coming from, not from existing LIRR commuters (right?) Also, it could cut down on costs (and perhaps take advantage of some excess track capacity out that way). Of course, if the LIRR plan could overcome those obstacles that have already been mentioned, then it wouldn't be needed. Maybe with this sort of plan if the superexpress service did rejoin the QB line there then any savings could be applied to extending subway service to eastern Queens, either along Hillside or from Parsons/Archer (as has been planned in the past). This might have more of an overall effect than just a rush-hour oriented service.
Here's another thought, though - in keeping with your LIRR-based plan, if the ESA is completed (and perhaps even some connection to Lower Manhattan as is currently being discussed for the new WTC transit hub) then enough space could be cleared at Penn to run half of this new Queens-only service there and provide both East and West side terminals, making the extra transfers from GCT to West side unnecessary. That might make this plan even more attractive to commuters.
Interesting. So you don't believe current Queens Blvd. riders would actually switch to LIRR service with this kind of proposal?
Well, I think it really depends on the fare method used, the headways (not just during the main rush hours either), and the ease of reaching their Manhattan destinations (both terminals and transfers to subway). That is why the idea of potentially running the service to Penn, GCT, and maybe even Lower Manhattan would seem to have much more appeal. Does the LIRR have the track capacity along the line and at stations (particularly Jamaica) to support services on short headways of like 10 minutes or so and for frequent service to these multiple terminals?
LIRR doesn't have the line capacity now, but if East Side Access diverts enough trains to Grand Central, then that will obviously reduce the "waiting list" of trains wanting to enter the tunnels to Penn Station. So a service going to Penn would be possible too...
This morning around 9:30am I just missed a 7 express in Flushing. I knew there was a GO that had all Flushing bound trains run express from Woodside to Flushing, but that wasn't supposed to start until 10am. So my NYC bound train should run express right?
Well we are held just shy of 9:36am as dispatch informs our crew that we will run local from Flushing to Woodside, due to construction.
On our way west I saw one E/B local train, all the Flushing bound trains started running express and the E/B local platforms were full of people waiting, either unaware of the GO or thinking it wasn't to start until 10. Our train got jam packed at 74th where I bailed for the IND. Why do they start early? I mean I can understand 5 or 10 minutes early but this was 20 minutes. While it didn't delay me to much I'm sure there were lots of confused pax at E/B platforms from Woodside to Willets.
Just missed an F which looked pretty empty at Roosevelt, I let a packed R32 E go by after that, which was followed by an empty R46 E which I got on. Slow around Qplaza, where I got an R across the platform. The R still gets some pretty good speed in 60th street tube.
At 42nd street I got a diamond Q, good RF window ride to Dekalb.
Took an N from there to 8th, another Slant R40. Later when I was going back from 8th ave around 1pm to NYC there was an empty R32 on the Manhattan bound platform, someone announced there was a problem and that we'd have to take CI bound N to 62nd/NUA and get the W to Manhattan. So I did that, the W was well, slow. At least the bridge wasn't too bad.
Going back in the afternoon to Queens I took a 7 express from GCT around 3:30pm.
I heard alot of ruckus on the motormans radio. On the express track we passed a stuck E/B local about 2 cars off the platform at 74th street. No pax were on board. I heard over the radio that "something had to be cleaned up" and police were looking at the train. All E/B trains had to run express after Woodside to bypass the problem.
Perhaps the TA should put on their posters 9:30 instead of 10:00. The 10 AM starting time of the GO means that by 10AM all trains must be off the track, the track secured by putting wood blocks into the switch points, the tower machine at 111 St. having locking devices on all levers leading into the affected track, power turned off and a few other incidental chores. The 10:00 time means this is the time the trackworkers and their equipment can enter the out of service area, the track is closed earlier to make it ready for the 10:00 start of work.
That is what the TA should've done, since the GO's should start when the track starts getting ready to be closed.
Transit fans might be interested in checking out a notice on http://www.pcac.org of the passing of Dr. Stephen Dobrow. It is sad news. In attending meetings of the NYC Transit Riders Council, I saw him in action, pushing projects for the riders' benefit. He knew what he was talking about. He is also known as one of the principals of the Committee for Better Transit. I praise him for his many years of voluntary work. He was only 58. Many thanks to the NYD ERA for calling my attention to this loss. The PCAC has lost several good people in the past year. Joe McMahon
He was a friend of mine from way back when. He had many good ideas which he developed and publicized through his Committee for Better Transport. He didn't get the showy publicity of some other advocates, but he was always in there plugging.
It's sad to add his name to the list of fans who passed away before their times, such as Roger Arcara and Harry Anderson.
Hello All, I was wondering what will the new WTC look like? Are they definately going to rebuild to the 75 stories I heard on the news the other night? They showed a picture of it although I did not see it? Will they look the same? DOes anyone have a pic of it that they can scan? Is it true that the new AOL-Time Warner building is supposed 2 be the tallest buildings in NYC. I heard about it on CNN. I was by the construction site and saw drawing but it did not look like the 80 some floors that cnn mentioned. Is that correct? Does anyone have better drawing of what that will look like? I appreciate any help people can provide. I think the WTC should be built bigger so that the whole world can remember what terrible thing has happened on 9-11-01. What do people think?
John
Welcome to the board (I know you just got your handle)... as a general rule of thumb if you feel you need to put "off topic" in the subject-- maybe it's not appropriate for posting. That being said there's several other WTC-related threads going on right now, why not keep the discussion going there instead of starting a new thread.
artists rendering of a smaller wtc
artists rendering of a smaller wtc
That artist seems to have forgotten about the World Financial Center and Battery Park City.
"artists rendering of a smaller wtc "
"That artist seems to have forgotten about the World Financial Center and Battery Park City"
It comes complete with an entirely smaller island. And we all get to ride to work in HO scale subways.
CAN NYC GET ANY SMALLER???
That's the ugliest thing I've ever seen. At least the old Trade Center had height and prominence to offset its horrific blandness.
hey i never said it was good.
I never said that you said you did.
I know the 12x4 ones are $8, but how much do the 24x8 ones cost?
>>> I know the 12x4 ones are $8, but how much do the 24x8 ones cost? <<<
What the hell is this post about??? If this is in response to an ongoing thread it should be in that thread. If it is an arithmetic problem, the answer should be $32.00.
Tom
Check with the sign shop you are dealing with. 48 square inches (12x4) is $8.00 (16 cents a square inch). 192 square inches ((24x8)x.16) should be about $32.00.
BUT check with the shop is doing your work. Better yet, do it yourself on your PC and print it with a color printer.
well doesnt the mta sell them at a fixed price?
No. The MTA only sells the small ones which were created especially for sale at the Transit Museum.
The larger ones may be extra signs from the sign shop (in which case the sale is illegal as the items are still TA property) or ones removed as part of a rehab project (in which case ownership and legal sale of the sign is up to debate).
Here's the link.
As I write this, the high bid is $355 and the reserve, which I suspect is a lot more than that, has not yet been met.
Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with the seller at all. - I just posted this for informational purposes. I already own the complete 7 volume set, although I did put in a bid, just they had a very low reserve price and.
I don't have any idea what the set is worth but with almost 9 days to go, it seems that I'm already priced out of the market. I guess I'll have to wait until they make the books into a movie.
I could have gotten a complete set about a year ago--straight sale--for $750, but passed it up. Now I bet this will go higher. A complete set hasn't broken $1000 yet (I think), but let's see.
For anyone who likes to keep tabs on this stuff:
In Ocean's 11, there is one scene in Chicago that starts on board a CTA train. It pulls into the Library station on the clockwise track (purple and orange side) at which point the character alights from the train. The train is signed for the loop although I think it was a brown line sign. I couldn't see car numbers. There is also one point where the character is under the el.
For anyone wishing to see this movie, I do reccomend it.
Sorry for no direct link on this, but I was perusing e-bay motors and came across this thing.......... WOT DA HELL !!!!!!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=600407279
Bill "Newkirk"
It is kind of cute. One of the more interesting looking tourist "trolleys" built on motor chasis.
I'd consider it, but parallel parking it is a pain in the butt ;-)
> I'd consider it, but parallel parking it is a pain in the butt ;-)
Didn't it say in the description that the rear wheels steer too? That would make it easier! :-)
It almost looks like it was based on a Type 5. The current bid price at 9:43 AM 1/15 was $610, but shipping it anywhere would be a $$$ pain. The description says it does not run.
shipping it anywhere would be a $$$ pain. The description says it does not run.
No problem! I'll just tow it with my replica steam engine. ;-)
Scary as it seems, it looks like this is a real old trolley body mounted on a modified VW bus chassis. Don't know without asking though, and since I'm not in the market...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone know what will become of these swubway items?
Path train under WTC(I don't know the car numbers)
Cortland Street(N,R)
WTC(E)
Q,Diamond Q,W,B,D
9 service
Astoria line express tracks
Culver express tracks
And finally
Jerome Avenue express tracks.
Does anyone know what will become of these swubway items?
Path train under WTC(I don't know the car numbers)
Three of the cars are crushed and probably will be removed as debris to the Fresh Kills landfill. Four of the cars are essentially undamaged and most likely will be removed and returned to service in the future.
Cortland Street(N,R)
I would imagine that it will reopen once the area above it is no longer located in the restricted-access zone. That probably won't happen until the debris-removal process is finished.
WTC(E)
It probably will reopen in the fairly near future, as there are exits into free-access areas.
I kind of hope they keep at least one of the damaged PATH cars around somewhere, to show people in the future how bad the damage was seven levels below ground as a result of the collapse. If some sort of indoor museum display is built along with any other WTC memorial, it would certainly fit in there. However, depending on how the Port Authority wants to do the rebuild, the cars may be cut up on site and hauled off rather than trying to lift them out with a crane or waiting until the tubes to New Jersey are unplugged and moving them out that way.
No one seems to know what's going on with the WTC E station.
I took a look there last weekend from the A/C platform. The E trains only go 90% of the way into the station to turn around. What I can see of the E platform looks fine. I asked a worker there if there was damage to the station and he said yes, but didn't say what.
The pictures posted on this web site show debris but not damage.
There definitely are plenty of exits from the platform to areas not fenced off to pedestrians any more.
I can't see them reopening for quite some time. The exits available cannot handle the passenger load.
If they reopened the station you would have a large number of people exiting thru 2 staircases at the WTC end. The one to the left of the turnstiles which is on Church next to the St. Paul's Church Cemetary, and the one to the right which is next to the Post Office. These are not large stairways. The exit on the north end of the platform is at the Chambers St station and that is also a small staircase.
People might as well change at Canal for the A or C and get off at Chambers or Broadway-Nassau.
You're assuming that the same amount of people who used the E to WTC before 9/11 would still be using it today if service were restored. If you ever get a chance to go thru the Chambers St station during the middle of the rush hour, you'll notice that the destruction of the WTC and the removal of a link to the PATH here has probably cut usage of this station by about two-thirds. I think existing exits could handle the significantly reduced passanger load.
The station should be reopened ASAP, specifically for the connection to the 1/2. Until then, this is yet another instance of a near miss, where passengers trying to make a connection have to transfer to an intermediate line for one stop.
Remember that far fewer passengers will be exiting there than prior to 9/11. Busier stations have fewer exits. Exiting will not be a problem.
There's also the issue of E's at Canal delaying following C's. If the E doesn't have to be thoroughly cleansed of passengers at Canal, the C can continue through unimpeded.
I think this is a matter which NYCT has no control over. It is entirely a police matter, the TA is merely waiting for the OK to restore passenger service.
Do you know this to be true, or is this a guess?
I think he may be right because it is still considered a crime scene.
I've heard lots of speculation about what's keeping the E WTC station closed. Much of the speculation is very plausible, but it's still speculation nevertheless.
What I haven't heard is a single fact, other than that the E trains only go 90% into the station to turn around.
I wouldn't wait until the last moment to get on a train to go one stop further than my original one would! I'd get on the second train as soon as possible and hopefully beat everyone to it. A at 42 St perhaps (the C is upstairs at 50th)?
The point isn't where you transfer -- it's that you have to transfer at all (or not board the E and wait for an A/C instead).
In a way, waiting until the last moment to transfer does make some sense. If service, for whatever reason, is interrupted while you're waiting for the transfer, you have a shorter walk. Or perhaps W4 would be the best place to wait, since if, (again) for whatever reason all downtown service is diverted, you'd be able to go to Jay and backtrack on an A/C. Of course, this isn't terribly likely.
But if I were on an E train from Queens, I'd transfer at 42 -- unless I had a feeling that we were being held at 50 to let a C sneak in ahead of us, in which case I might run upstairs.
Of course, the point is moot come Monday.
Unless I am mistaken the Astoria Express Tracks are used Peak Direction Express for the W? Please correct me if I am mistaken?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I recall reading posts earlier that the Astoria express service is to be discontinued. Or am I wrong?
To the other questions:
Jerome express tracks - They're used mainly for station bypassing due to GOs on the #4 line. In and around the 149th Street area they're used for either storage or the 138th Street bypass during rush hours.
Culver express tracks - Should be used for peak direction express service on the F line, but the logistics behing pulling it off may be difficult due to the track alignment around Church Av., the choice between the V and the G as a local (possibly a further G cutback to Beford-Nostrand with shuttles to Hoyt-Schmerhorn, which would come back to haunt the MTA if they even brought it up), and the lack of cars.
#9 service - Probably will be back as soon as the Greenwich St. tunnel is rebuilt around the WTC area. Either good or bad depending on who you ask in the Morningside-Harlem-Washington Heights stretches.
Q (both of them), W, B, and D - if and when the DOT gets through rehabbing the Manny B., there will be definite changes, although what changes are subject to speculation. Best guess is that the Q express stays with the service to Bway, and the D local to 6th Av; B returns to Brooklyn. W is up in the air.
Culver express tracks - Should be used for peak direction express service on the F line, but the logistics behing pulling it off may be difficult due to the track alignment around Church Av., the choice between the V and the G as a local (possibly a further G cutback to Beford-Nostrand with shuttles to Hoyt-Schmerhorn, which would come back to haunt the MTA if they even brought it up), and the lack of cars. <.i>
The Culver Express track is currently being used to conduct brake tests on various R-equipment.
--Mark
Astoria Express service on the W was discontinued as of 1/7/02.
W trains will be local in both directions in Astoria during hours of operation.
8113 is on the way down Broadway to 207.
That would make the 15th R-143 if I am not mistaken.
When are they to go into service, and is the test one still running?
The Work Train Manifest (The list of train of the night) for Monday night work train #23 was going to move four R143's from 207yard to Eest New York Yard. So while one four car train is being trainsfered yesterday, one car was Delvered.
Robert
Keep em chopping Engine Brake. My CI pick is 10:58 AM on Thursday and I don't know what will be left. At least I have far more experience on R142s than any of the 180th crew...possibility is switching over OR 207th. Todays buzz: 96 Redbirds left (married pairs??) Whatever....it's in the Lords hands. At least I'll still have a good job...TA work is EXCELLENT work. CI Peter
Looking at the roster for the current locomotives rasies my eyebrow. There is an equal amount of Diesels to Dual Modes (23 each). Yet, there seems to be PLENTY (If I'm not mistaking, all trains, are...) more diesel trains running on non-electrified routes on off peak hours. Where are these dual modes camping out? It would be convinent for Weekend and Weekday Off-peak riders if the dual modes ran at the same frequency as diesels. Even on peak hours, there's like only 1 DM train per branch going to the peak direction (E/B in the PM, W/B in the AM for the...slow ones). WHY!@#? Heh
Basically it is the lack of fitting in those trains to Penn Station. They can't fill in anymore slots needed to fill in because all slots, especially to Penn Station are way above capacity levels.
"Basically it is the lack of fitting in those trains to Penn Station. They can't fill in anymore slots needed to fill in because all slots,
especially to Penn Station are way above capacity levels."
True - Penn itself is not at capacity. What is at capacity is the ability to empty Penn slots through the Hudson tunnels. Build two more tracks under the Hudson, and you solve the problem (until Amtrak and LIRR treble their schedules and create a new problem :0) )
So why did they spend all this money on dual modes if they can't use them?
The dual modes are used for trains into and out of Penn Station. I'm not sure of the number but there are Port Jeff and Montauk trains every weekday AM & PM that run to or from Penn Station. Since there are just 23(?) Dual Mode locos and 2 are needed for each train, allowing for spares and o/o/s units, I would expect that 8 or 9 daily trains in each direction would be the max that the LIRR could handle. I do not know if they are running that many into Penn Station.
There are at least two Port Jeff runs into Penn a day so that accounts for 4 DM's. 23 means only 11 trains IF all were in service and none down for inspection or problems. 11 trians is unrealalistic so I agree with the Dude that 8 trains (16 DM's) would be the limit for rush hour schedules.
When the order was made, LIRR didn't know Amtrak would require two DM's for each train.
The biggest mistake with the dual mode's (from my perspective, which is as a 100% mechanical know-nothing) is that they serve the LIRR's longest lines. So each actual train is limited to only one inbound and one outbound trip per rush hour. As a result, the LIRR gets a very limited return on their investment.
For example, the 5:44 AM from Port Jeff gets into Penn at 7:20. Even if you could clear the train and turn it in 10 minutes, you'd have at least a 75 minute deadhead express (against peak flow) run out to Port Jeff to try and use that trainset again. By the time the train reached Port Jeff it would be almost 9:00 AM and there really isn't any need anymore. Same goes for Oyster Bay and Patchogue/Speonk.
That all being said, the DM's have occasionally been used as late rush hour replacements when they've been short MU's. Happened a few times last winter where the 8:09 and 8:25 Freeport-to-Penn's were covered by the DM's. That helps me, but doesn't really do much for the folks in Sayville. Electrifying the diesel lines would have given the LIRR considerably more operational flexibility.
CG
There's one a day (M-F) on the Oyster Bay:
6:13 am inbound and 6:10pm outbound.
Thanks, I know of at least one on the Port Jeff and Montauk in each direction . I'll look into it more extensively, tonight.
Actually I think there are two Port Jeff, one Speonk, and one Oyster Bay. That's it. So where are the rest of the engines? It seems like a waste if they don't have room at Penn.
2 each way on Port Jeff,
train 605 5:44am PJ to Penn arriving at 7:20
train 615 7:35am PJ to Penn arriving at 9:27
train 658 4:19pm Penn to PJ arriving at 6:05
train 660 4:49pm Penn to PJ arriving at 6:36
1 each way to Speonk
train 2737 6:11am Speonk to Penn arriving at 8:23
train 2734 5:10pm Penn to Speonk arriving at 7:15*
*- train 2734 is extended to Montauk during summers on Fridays only operating as train 2710
1 each way to Oyster Bay
train 503 6:03am OB to Penn arriving at 6:57
train 564 6:10pm Penn to OB arriving at 6:56
This totals 4 trains each way using 8 DM's with others used on shorter trains.
Well once the GCT connector opens these capacity problems should be alleviated. But the dual modes will still have to go to Penn, since I believe they cannot fit into the 63rd street lower level.
"But the dual modes will still have to go to Penn, since I believe they cannot fit into the 63rd street lower level."
Do you have any source for that information? It didn't see the case when I walked that tunnel many years ago. Of course, I was much younger then.
Each DM train requires two engines due to Penn Station regulations. Maybe they should try running some to Roundbush.
I'd like to be on Atlantic Avenue if they tried....preferably a hundred yard away from the elevated structure...at least.
Ever hear a locomotive fall from an elevated structure while it is collapsing?
The LIRR Atlantic Avenue structure simply cannot support the weight of a locomotive. The only loco (and it's been discussed before here) that COULD go west of the East New York tunnels (in other words, onto the sturcture) was the 44-tonner.
The LIRR Atlantic Avenue structure simply cannot support the weight of a locomotive
I thought that years ago the Atlantic Ave. elevated structure used to handle Steam Engines hauling freight cars to the upper level of Flatbush terminal??
There are two reasons for this 'problem'. First, as JM stated, AMTRAK requires two DM locos on every LIRR (non-MU) train in and out of Penn Station. The second is that the DMs - 500 series locos can be and are used in place of the 400 series (single mode) locos on runs not originatating or terminating in Penn Station.
i have a question is the r 143 still on the 30 day trial run. or did it past the tes . if it past the test what will happen next?
She passed her 30 day test. I would GUESS the next step is a check up of the 8 cars that saw service, and then they will be released back to revenue service.
Also, 5 more MU's are on the property.
The City is pushing forward in their effort to shut down NYCHRR.
From a on-line weekly news letter published by the Straphangers group, "The New York City Economic Development Council wants to shut down the New York Cross Harbor Railroad." ... "Citing a variety of late fees, fire code violations and chemical dumping practices ..."
I think what is realy going on is that the City wants the Bush Term. yard and adjacent tracks/buildings to develop the area. "They" no longer see any need for NYCHRR and see NY & Atl replacing them via the 65th Street float bridge (that the City re-built). In previous papers filed by the City them moved to deprive NYCH from use of yard and tracks to their flot facility.
Meanwhile NY & Atl is still (last week) delivering & picking up car loads as a result of NYCH float comings & goings.
Mr rt__:^)
Right, Mr. T. Seems that NYCH is making the Jersey side of the river as their 'home base'. This means that they can still do floats and deliveries to NY & A down at BAT, although their facilities at Bush Terminal has most likley been padlocked by NYC Sheriffs by now.
I'd guess that NYCH has one or two diesels over at Greenville as all of their other locos are locked up in the barn at Bush T.
BMTman
Hey, my NYRR stock is down to 3 cents a share. What more can the City do it?
NYCH is in good company with Enron
I don't think anything has been padlocked just yet, though the EDC seems to be pushing getting them out of bush terminal and into 65th street yard. 65th street yard is suppose to have CP & NYA as it's operators though, so what will happen here is anyone's guess. My guess is CP & NYA would have to agree to let NYRR work the float bridge, or at least deliever to the barges to the float bridge, and have NYA unload them.
All of this seems moot though, because so far as i've read the STB doesn't see any reason to kick them (NYRR) out of bush terminal.
Boy Howdy. Talk about a legal mess. We got any lawyers around here that can sort through the retoric?
Does this mean More cars at 65 th St. Yard by any chance? Because, well..Thats a good thing.
[Does this mean More cars at 65 th St. Yard by any chance?]
The first answer is, no change, because currently the 65th St Float facility isn't in operation, i.e. just NYCH doing it north or there. They move the cars thru the Bush Terminal yard, down 1st Avenue, then leave them for NY & Atl to pick up (there was such a pick up late last week).
The second answer is, might be an increase, because both CP and NY & Atl are making all the right noises about wanting to move move freight via the Bay Ridge branch (either to/from LI or THROUGH LI on its way to Conn and other northern destinations).
Mr rt__:^)
They only had one loaner in Brooklyn, the EMD NWs & Alco Ss were all out of service ... I heard they faileed FRA inspections.
At least it might be an opportunity for some museum to pick up a complete old diesel ... maybe the engine 35 or 39 folks could use something to move their stuff around ? They are NY natives & were around the same time as their steamers.
Mr rt__:^)
There's at least 2 old alcos in the barn there, plus the battered on by the street...
Yes that is correct, unless NYCH moved them out of there, i.e. they might be in NJ (if I knew they were going to padlock the doors I would load up everything that wasn't nailed down that I thought I could get some cash for).
Mr rt__:^)
NYCH JUST DIE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!
Apparently, you don't like NYCH, I gather?
BMTman
Nice handle. Angel of death!!!
heh another local RR hater, Take it out on the railroads, remember?
My previous item was from LAST weeks copy of the Straphangers on-line newsletter, here's an item from this week's:
"The EDC asked us to clarify that, while it is pursuing the evictions and an "adverse possession" action at the U.S. Surface Transportation
Board, it does not aim to put the company out of business. EDC said
it will offer Cross-Harbor the opportunity to bring barges into the
float bridge facilities at the 65th St. Yard, operated by Canadian Pacific and NY & Atlantic Railroads."
Now since the float business is basically the only revenue that NYCHRR has access to, if they have to use the City's (NY & Atl) float facility, then they'll get less of the money to move cars across the Hudson ?
In a related item, in last weeks Straphangers Newsletter, they said the City was moving forward with it's STUDY improving the amount of rail freight that comes across the Hudson either by float or a new tunnel to be dug between 65th Street and NJ or SI (there was a May 2000 report that recomended 3 options to increase rail freight across the Hudson: 1 = improved float; 2 = tunnel to NJ; 3 = tunnel to SI).
What do you call a person who really believes that the TA will truly be able to dispense with conductors on its subway trains in the near future? Someone who believes the TA would be up to the task?
TA Management.
OK - One possible answer.
Here's mine: An OPTOmist!
:0)
Groan. (I love it!)
I think someone has been inhaling a bit too much steel dust lately :)
Clever! :-)
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
[What do you call ... TA Management]
Correction: Senior TA/MTA management. Some of the lower level management actually worked on the job & know better.
Mr rt__:^)
My 8 year old daughter voted for 'dumb'.
Politically, I don't know if it will be completely possible in the foreseeable future. However, other big systems like Chicago and London are now OPTO.
Yes, indeed. They are true OPTOmists...
I walked into that one...
OK, that deserves a rim shot.
Washington was OPTO from day one. However, our consists are only 1/2 as long as New York's. Maximum train size is 6 cars. The platforms can probably accomodate more but the system has only so many cars.
One good thing. The operators don't have to play "hokey pokey" with their fingers because we don't have conductor boards to point.
Michael
We have had 8 car trains in the past (pre 1983) and may go back to that very soon on Red and Orange.
Politically, I don't know if it will be completely possible in the foreseeable future. However, other big systems like Chicago and London are now OPTO.
Have any of you heard the automatic announcements on the OPTO Northern Line trains in London. They are enough to drive you mad! "This is a... Northern Line... train to... Morden... on the... Charing Cross Branch. The next stop is... Mornington Crescent." All in an impassive irritating tone. There aren't any of the good old manual announcements now! I miss the conductor who used to say "This is a Barking train. Woof woof."
Just consider the many nationalities that have been absorbed that need to receive 'directions.' I watch 'Brit TV and news,' so when I see a 'thankyouverrrrymuch' I'm blown away to hear an 'EastEnder' accent. Our world becomes closer, especially after 911. CI Peter
Just consider the many nationalities that have been absorbed that need to receive 'directions.'
Irritating, aren't they. Whatever happened to asking if you needed them?
I watch 'Brit TV and news,'
Would you believe that until a few years ago the UK only had 4 television channels?
so when I see a 'thankyouverrrrymuch' I'm blown away to hear an 'EastEnder' accent.
Not many people talk like tha'. Honest, guv.
Our world becomes closer, especially after 911.
Too true. Whatever next? A transatlantic tunnel and Amtrak into London Paddington? Now you're talking :D
So my strange accent is always pegged off from Noo Yawk. Definitely midtown, a little central Joisey and a little southern. Just look at where I live...smack in the middle of the city amidst the foreign consulates and missions to the UN, so look at the 'UN of trainsets' I work on now. Canadian design, USA assembly, German trucks, Spanish power supplies and so on. CI Peter
My speech has been tempered as a consequence of having lived in four different states in different geographic areas. My short "a" still has a touch of Indiana twang; other words such as "off" and "coffee" have a Jersey flavor; still other parts are nondescript.
Back on topic, the announcements on Denver's light rail trains are nonrepetitive and to the point. It will be interesting to see what they do when the new color and letter code takes effect in April. I have to get some film, it's time to take some more photos of the new spur line. The ones I took in December came out very well considering I left the camera in manual mode for the first 7 frames and had the lens stopped all the way down.
"What do you call a person who really believes that the TA will truly be able to dispense with conductors on its subway trains in the near future? Someone who believes the TA would be up to the task? "
An Opto-optimist?
Is that an optomist who wears glasses?
Have you looked at the data, before proposing a solution? How do you suppose the following heavy rail operations compared for the efficiency statistic: operator hours/Vehicles in Maximum Service during 2000: NYCT, Washington-Metro, Atlanta and Chicago?
Which do you suppose required the most operator hours, the least, by how much?
Stephen,
Have you looked through all the posted replies? If you did, you would realize that the original point of my post was a joke.
The answer was "OPTOmist." Get it? :0)
Other responders did treat the question seriously; hence, a lively discussion ensued.
Until next time...
Why don't you try to answer the question I posed? I think you will be very surprised by the answer.
When I get a chance, I'll look into it. Gotta be familiar with the data before I can formulate an opinion.
Gotta be familiar with the data before I can formulate an opinion.
Lack of familiarity with the data does not appear to prevent you from proposing a solution. :-)
Isn't it fun to spar with Stephen? :-)
Better in person! :0)
If I may jump in, I'll bet one the the least efficient (most operator hours per vehicle in max service) is one of the highly automated systems - Wash? Atlanta?, while the most efficient is one of the older systems: NYC or Chicago.
I don't know if anyone new that TA Diesel have Nicknames. I was told it is done by one Opt. They are named for different parts of New York City. These are the ones that I got over the last few weeks.
#63-"The Flushing"
#70-"The New Lots"
#77-"The Rego Park"
#79-"The Queens Village"
#82-"The Williamburg"
#901-"The Manhattan"
#905-"The East Village"
Well this is what I have so far. I will post more if anyone is intraded in this at a latter date.
Robert
#69-"The I have inhaled too much diesel fumes aka Greenwood Cemetery".
Just a quick question...
About how long would it normally take to drive from Philly to the Shore Line trolley musuem at Branford, CT, assuming normal weekend traffic?
Is that something that could feasibly be done on a weekly basis if, say, somebody living in Philly wanted to do volunteer work at Branford, or is the distance simply too far to be practical?
Iquiring minds want to know...
-- David
Chicago, IL
It takes me about an hour and fifteen minutes from the Throgs Neck Bridge so if you know how long it would take you to get to the Bronx just add an 1:15. By the way, to save traffic I would take the Hutch/Merrit combo rather than I-95 from the Bronx. You then get on I-95 near Millford.
Don't drive, take the train. Amtrak to New Haven and then SLE to Branford. Follow the tracks from BRAN(FORD)? interlocking. Jeez, what kind of railfan are you?
Seriosuly, I-95 from about exit 8A, through NYC and along the shoreline is hell on Earth.
See Mike and Jeffrey Rosen's directions.
I don't know that you'd want to do this drive on a regular basis - it is a considerable distance.
I would rail it...
Thanks to everybody for the helpful info.
I was thinking it would be pretty cool to volunteer at Branford on a regular basis once I get settled in Philly (probably this spring or summer), but it looks like the travel time would make it too much of a hassle to get up there on a regular basis. (Right now it takes me about 90 minutes each way out to IRM, which is more within reason.)
However, I'm looking forward to getting up to Branford at least for a visit once in a while. It will also be nice to be so close to NYC, which I plan to visit as often as possible. Maybe someday after I'm done with school, I may even decide to actually move to NYC, and then I'll be able to get to Branford for some actual volunteer work.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'd plan for a 3 hour 15 minute trip, one way.
--Mark
We have a member that does that but stays over night (sat/sun). I don't know where he lives in PA but next time I see him, I'll ask.
6:12 lv Market East (SEPTA)
6:20 lv 30th Street
7:06 ar Trenton
7:15 lv Trenton (NJT)
8:38 ar NYP
walk or subway
9:07 lv GCT (MN)
10:50 ar New Haven
(info from BERA's website:)
walk 6 blocks
11:10 board F bus to Shore Line trolley musuem
Even better
Lv 30 St phila 5:14 Amtrak #190 daily (also departs Newark at 6:24 -that how I did my trip)
Arr 8:43 New Haven
Walk to F bus at State & Church leave at 9:31
Arrive at East Haven Green at 9:52 Monday to Saturday or 10:18 Sunday
Peter the Pole
Peteski,
Your itinerary is better time-wise, but mine is cheaper, and I expect that David would be on a tight budget.
Peter makes the first trolley run at 10:30am. A cab costs $11-$12 plus tip if cost isn't an issue from New Haven Union Station to BERA.
From Philly, the ride up the NJ Tpke (now that the speed limit is 65 all the way up to the GWB) would probably cost you 1:00 - 1:15. Then add an additional :15 - :30 minutes to work your way through the travel restrictions on the GWB, since trucks have to crowd up on the Upper Level. Then, assuming its a normal weekend in The Bronx (which it usually isn't), it's :10 minutes on the Cross Bronx from Manhattan to the Bruckner Interchange, then another :5 from the Bruckner Interchange to the junction with I-695 at Pelham Bay. That's where things get messy. There's usually heavy traffic on this stretch from Pelham to the interchange with the Hutchinson Parkway, Pelham Parkway, and Gun Hill Road. Reason: the Parkway turnoffs are spaced too closely together, with heavy volumes getting on and off. In addition, the Gun Hill Road exit, also heavily used, is on the left, so traffic coming from Pelham Bay to go to Gun Hill has to switch thru 4 lanes, slowing everything down even further. Then there's the turnoff for the Bay Plaza Shopping Center, which gets heavy traffic normal weekend or not. Give yourself another :15 - :20 minutes thru this stretch. Then its a quick :20 minutes to the Conneticut state line, followed by slowdowns through downtowns Greenwich and Stanford (:10 min each). Then its the run to New Haven, a long stretch that's probably about :45 to 1:00. All in all, it's about 3:20 mins if you stick with I-95, on a GOOD weekend. On special weekends, your best bet is to stick with the GSP from Woodbridge to the NY Thruway south(east)bound across the Tappan Zee, then I-278 east to the Hutch/Merritt, then the Merritt to New Haven.
Once you get across the GWB and to the Conn Turnpike (95) it's not too bad, probived:
- Saturdays, Sundays coming back are bad in the summer
- Early AM, once you get to late morning & closer to noon traffic picks up, so aiming for a 10 or before arrival at Branford will make a pleasent trip.
Mr rt__:^)
An hour and a half to NY, and an hour and 15 to Branford, if NO traffic. Could easily double.
David, it runs me about 2:30 to 2:45 when traffic is decent, more if traffic is bad - and that's from exit 105 on the Garden State. Figure about another 45 minutes from the Camden side at I-295 (taking that north to the Turnpike). I don't take the GWB - too heavy even on a good day - but rather go all the way up the GSP to the NYS Thruway and the Tappan Zee, then east from there, it's faster.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
About 3.5 hours. One of our members does the trip frequently from
a suburb north of philly. He posts here rarely with a handle
like JBoylanTyRR.....maybe you can find one of his postings
and ask him directly.
In the March 2001 FEIS for East Side Access, the MTA writes that there was local opposition (aka NIMBY) to a new Third Avenue LIRR terminal. This was part of the reason MTA decided to propose that the tunnel be extended to a new GCT LIRR terminal.
What is the likelihood of major NIMBY to a 59th Street station on the LIRR's way to GCT?
There isn't any plan for such a station, is there?
How many recall that the 63rd St. tunnel is itself a result of NIMBY-ism? It was supposed to be the sixty-FOURTH street tunnel, but the opponents there got it moved. What was the difference? I don't recall (sorry) but I assume a hospital or similar facility might have had the clout.
It was Rockefeller University. They thought sensitive instruments might be disturbed by the vibrations involved in long-term construction. The 64th Street plan was the result of a 61rst Street proposal being judged too expensive.
My guess would be, that very little. The area is quite commercial, I'd say it would add property value if the station were to be built.
Arti
Thank you.
I imagine it would be significant, as I have spoken about that region's NIMBY$ in the past. While the intersection of 59th and 3rd might be very commerical, you are a stones throw from some of the most expensive real estate in the City; Sutton Place and Park Avenue, to name a few.
These residents, who unarguably carry a great deal of clout, might be opposed to increased development and Long Islander commuters pouring out of their ground. I know I would be. Okay, just kidding.
Seriously, someone once spoke of how commercial Park Avenue is in the 59th Street area, and how there were no residences south of 59th Street.
This is false. There are a handful of residneces South of 59th, and the number of pre-war residences rises steeply North of 59th. Each tenant probably makes more in a day than I'll see in a whole year, and we all know money = power.
But then again, you never know,
MATT-2AV
To my knowledge there was never any plan to have an East Side LIRR terminal or station at 59th and Third Ave. The original 1968 MTA Program for Action report proposed a new LIRR East Side Terminal in the vicinity of 48th and Third - with walking connections to the 53rd St/E&F, 51st St #6, and the 2nd Ave. Subway. The lower level of the 63d St. Tunnel was of course tied into this terminal.
59th and Lex-Park is not very residential.
Colorado-based Transportation Technology Center said the Guilford rail line for the most part exceeds the standards set by a federal transportation board. FRA standards require that the roadbed deflect no more than .25". 99.95% of the route tested met this requirement, the exception being a 166 foot section near Kennebunk. Amtrak wants to raise the linespeed from 60 to 79 mph that would shave some 15 minutes from the trip. Guilford is against this because it would mean more maintainence, something that Guilford is generally against. Guilford is claiming that the problem is the 115 pound rail on the line, but aside from both the STB and FRA giving approval for the speed, trains have been running at 79 on 113/115 pound rail for almost 50 years over the national system.
NYDoT has officially submitted a petition to the FRA for class-7 status to be granted to the Hudson Line. This would allow speeds up to 120mph. NYSDOT would implement a Five-Year Hazard Mitigation Action Plan, which would include crossing improvement, elimination and closure. The FRA has invited interested parties to participate in the proceedings by submitting written opinions, data or comments; but the agency doesn't anticipate the need for a formal hearing at this point.
Hooray!
Will you please post links and addresses for writing?
Yes!!! Where can we submit these opinions to?
Could this mean future high-speed rail service through Albany to Montreal?
What's that noise? Could it be the future calling?
The holdup was and might still be a move by CSX to force NY State into rectifying its oppressive property tax on railroads. CSX was refusing to finish upgrading their Hudson Line for 120mph service until the state legislature ammended the law. I don't know how it turned out.
Does CSX own the entire stretch from Poughkeepsie to Canada? Or do they have NYC to Canada? I thought Metro-North owns NYC to Poughkeepsie.
Is it even possible to have high-speed rail from NYC to Canada while trying to chare it with CSX? Wouldn't the headways need to be increased so commuter trains don't get stuck behind freight?
The Line from Saratoga Springs to Montreal is owned by the Delaware and Hudson division of CP Rail. It is a fairly mountainous <80 mph line. The line from Po-town to Albany is the CSX Hudson Line. I do not know why for the life of me why it has not been purchased by the state or Amtrak. There is very little freight traffic on the line.
I do not know why for the life of me why it has not been purchased by the state or Amtrak. There is very little freight traffic on the line.
Yeah, the state seems to have missed out on a commuting bonanza, a commuter rail-style connection from Albany to NYC. Is the 120mph designed for Amtrack, or will Metro-North cash in on that as well? After all, they have been talking about extending from Pok. to Rhinecliff. Might as well go the extra miles to Albany. A high-speed express from GCT to Croton-Harmon to Poughkeepsie to Albany would be great - and fast (2hrs?)
JR
Is the 120mph designed for Amtrack, or will Metro-North cash in on that as well? After all, they have been talking about extending from Pok. to Rhinecliff.
Metro North's proposed expansion from POK to either Rhinecliff or Hudson has been definitely dead for a year or more. Intense community opposition to commuter trains and attendant pressure for development and sprawl killed it. Instead, they have constructed a multi-deck parking structure at POK to give more parking for the increasing # of riders who commute daily (or close) from POK to NYC.
Metro North's proposed expansion from POK to either Rhinecliff or Hudson has been definitely dead for a year or more. Intense community opposition to commuter trains and attendant pressure for development and sprawl killed it.
That's too bad. Yeah, I see how having a good transportation infrastucture would be bad for those communities...what? Create tougher zoning regulations, and they can prevent unwanted development and sprawl. I guess they would prefer to sit in traffic on Rte 9 through Hyde Park and Rhinebeck.
Instead, they have constructed a multi-deck parking structure at POK to give more parking for the increasing # of riders who commute daily (or close) from POK to NYC.
I have seen this, but I didn't think this was a concession to the lack of expansion. I thought this was already in the works since Pok. would be overcrowded even if the expansion didn't happen. I'm glad to see that they are finally renovating that pedestrian walkway from Main St. to the station!
The Poughkeepsie train station was a parking nightmare in the '60s and it has only gotten worse since. The deck is long overdue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I see how having a good transportation infrastucture would be bad for those communities...what? Create tougher zoning regulations, and they can prevent unwanted development and sprawl. I guess they would prefer to sit in traffic on Rte 9
Even though I would have greatly benefitted from MN expansion to Rhinecliff (nearest station to my weekend place in Ulster County), I understand why the towns fought so hard.
They're currently too far to be practical for commuting either to Albany (50+ miles north) or NYC (90 miles south). Bringing less expensive hourly MNservice to a town that formerly had a handful of costly Amtrak runs each day would bring commuters willing to trade 2 hours each way for cheaper housing ... which would then be built in great swaths on former farmland.
And yeah Route 9 is crowded. But they'd upgrade it to handle the new housing, and it'd still be as crowded afterward.
I thought [the parking deck] was already in the works since Pok. would be overcrowded even if the expansion didn't happen.
Could be, I'm not sure. But MN has notably improved service from POK (fewer connections, more express service) over the 10 years I've been riding it. And the new garage is great, at least unless they charge more for using it than for surface parking. (I get there Sun evening and get my pick of spots.)
I'm glad to see that they are finally renovating that pedestrian walkway from Main St. to the station!
They're not. They tore it out. They're building a "kiss and ride" dropoff area instead, and landscaping it. OTOH, the entire parking deck was designed to blend into the station, complete with brick veneer in the correct bond, peaked tiled roofs and arched windows. Nice job.
The ride from NYC to CHICAGO is shorter and faster than the ride to Montreal. CP tracks are not available and the route to Montreal (this is why we came to NYC for Christmas instead) it NYC-Albany-BUFFALO and then up the tug hill plateau along the St Lawrence to Montreal. And the one that runs up through Vermont ends at St Albans and then they put you on a BUS ...
The proposed 120 MPH would only be NYC-ALB/Rensselaer, beyond that the limits are typically 3 MPH straight up, and restricted the other way. 16 hours to Montreal, 14 to Chicago ... yipe.
What happened to the trains NY-Albany-Montreal and NY-Springfield-Montreal? Have they been gone for years without my noticing?
They're not what they used to be. The Springfield one terminates at St Albans and the one that goes through Albany goes all the way west to Buffalo and then up along the St Lawrence to Montreal. There *is* an Adirondacks train that goes there (not shown on the system map for Amtrak) but I don't know if that one's still running.
When we were deciding whether to spend Christmas in Montreal or in NYC, it was that 16 hour scheduled run in coach that had us choose the 2.5 hour ride to NYC over about the same distance. Albany is about halfway between Montreal and NYC ... I don't know the particulars or when things changed, but it was recently ...
The Adirondack runs daily. It travels 383 miles in 9 hours 45 minutes. The travel time from Albany is 7 hours 5 minutes.
Wowsers ... there it IS ... wonder why when we tried to book for Montreal, Amtrak's reservation center had no idea of it nor did it appear on their website? 7 hours would have been _tolerable_ for the ride from here. Is there a conspiracy against Canada that I've been missing somehow?
Thanks for the tip ... now I'm grumpy about being sidelined to NYC instead to enjoy the company of some friends from here and Harry's place instead ... not that I don't have fellow foamers and transit employees and management to play with up there as well. I think things worked out just fine the way they did despite Amtrak screwing the pooch.
It's possible the train was sold out for that day (though that would surprise me), in which case the website might decline to tell you that it exists. Not sure if the website still does that, of course, because it's an awfully confusing thing to do from a user point of view.
The ride between Albany and Montreal is quite slow and curvy and, at least when I rode it several years ago, can be none too smooth at times. I don't see that becoming a high-speed line unless there's a new right of way.
Yeah, we'd done it a long time ago ( >10 years ) and it was actually a nice, bucolic ride. That was why I was surprised to see it *gone* when we fancied a ride on it ... still, we had more fun in NYC ...
BUFFALO!?!?!? Kevin, the Montreal Secondary connects to the Albany Service Lane at Syracuse, Then you go thru the Tug Hill region on a nice long jaunt to Montreal. Upgrades may be coming, however, because developers want to ***E-X-P-A-N-D*** the heck out of Carousel Center in Syracuse, making it the biggest mall in North America, this mall is located next door to the Syracuse Amtrak station and the Montreal secondary junction is right in it's back yard, real convenient for transporting bunches of Canadians, their wallets bulging, to the mall to spend their hard earned C$ ***KA CHING***
Sorry about that - if the train "turns" at Syracuse instead of Beefaloo, then the time it takes to get there is even MORE pathetic. Once upon a time, the train ran along Lake Champlaign ... from here, that trip is too damned long. Then again, the adirondack rails ain't what they used to be ... until the valuation is changed for property tax purposes ... in other words, I don't blame CP for not fixing them.
Nothing happened ... the legislature did NOTHING this past year and they're all up for re-election this year. No budget (just a flurry of bills at the end of session for some items) and no changes to revenue law. CSX didn't get what they wanted, so nothing has happened. Biz as usual ...
the legislature did NOTHING this past year and they're all up for re-election this year.
Sounds like time to clean house. The U.S. can't wait any longer for a high-speed rail system! We are sooo far behind other countries, especially when you think about how long our rails have been around. That golden spike driven when East met West is long gone, and was probably pawned to bribe a senator into defeating money for rail projects!!
The money for high-speed rail studies should be approved the day the proposal is dropped on the desk.
JR
The airlines have more "happy money" to hand out to politicos, emptying the company treasury ENRON style to purchase their dreams. Amtrak has no wallet. Guess who wins?
Guess who wins?
I'm guessing, the politicians? Well, at least until the great railfan revolt of the 21st Century. Railfans Unite! :) Just kidding for all you CIA-types. This website is not used to promote violence, only action.
Amtrak has no wallet.
They don't even have a pocket to put the wallet in...
And there's the rub. Wonder how many "competitors" will pony up to the bar to build the "free marketplace railroad?" Penn Central was only too willing to dump it on the taxpayers ... I just don't see this working. And if the states get it, this should be really amusing. I can see a shuttle bus across the Hudson, another across the border at Rye, and let's face it - Rhode Island? Might as well get on a bus in Connecticut straight into Boston since Providence is about it.
Can we imagine CSX with passenger cars? Ex-Ringling Brothers coaches perhaps with only a few dents? I really don't see this working out.
Better yet: rides with stripped out Redbird carbodies going trailer at high speeds for a REAL thrill. CI Peter
CSX would buy them if only there was an offer ...
There was a post yesterday about former LIRR coaches for sale. Now THAT would DEFINITELY be CSX material ... un-GOH'd ...
"Can we imagine CSX with passenger cars?"
I can, sorta. Operation of passenger service by freight railroads is possible, under the right conditions. Union Pacific is infamous for how it handles Amtrak trains on its tracks out west. But UP also operates three Metra lines under contract, and those lines are just as efficient and on-time as the lines operated directly by Metra, including the UP-West line which is HEAVILY used by freight trains.
That puts the finger on what the right condition is -- an attractive and lucrative operating contract that covers the freight company's full cost of operation plus a decent profit. But Metra can offer such a contract because it is well funded, and it's well-funded because nobody seriously questions its existence or utility. Amtrak -- even an Amtrak limited to being a central agency for doling out routes for freight railways to operate -- would therefore have to be MUCH better funded, and funded with more certainty, than it ever has been in its 30+ year history.
That same funding could achieve miraculous results with the CURRENT Amtrak ... I think the "game" here is to slash the bucks further and there's no way in hell CSX is going to take a loss ... the staggering costs would insure same given the ridership ...
"That same funding could achieve miraculous results with the CURRENT Amtrak."
I agree, but the problem is that some people, rightly or wrongly, don't trust Amtrak (at least as presently constituted) with additional funding. These are generally (with some exceptions) the very sort of people who think that privatization is a cure-all for government inefficiency. Therefore having the trains run on a contract basis may be just the sort of assurance of efficiency to get the "anti-Amtrak but not anti-passenger-rail" people on board (so to speak) for additional funding. Spoon full of sugar and all that. Of course, it'll never win over the virulent "intercity passenger rail is old fashioned and should go the way of the buggy whip" types (McCain, DeLay), but it's not intended to, either.
I can recall a time when the Regional Transportation Authority was months behind on its bills, and the freight roads threatened to cancel its entire schedule.
They didn't amend the law, it got lost somewhere in the NYS budget debacle and 9/11. CSX did file a lawsuit, but I haven't heard of any outcome of that yet.
Got the soundtrack to Ocean's Eleven the other day and had it in my walkman on the subway. Was incredible to listen to while
f l y i n g through the East River tunnel on a #4 Redbird...
Does anybody else like to stand at the railfan window with background music? If not, I HIGHLY recommend it!
-wayne
Play the music when you're home watching
the run on video.... but when you're there
in PERSON, let the sounds of the rails
overtake you... as you can only do so for
a limited number of days (now)...
Rmadillos a'comin'
especially the music the redbirds make !!
Oh yes definately! I listen to music alot while railfanning. I mix my own tapes for it. On a local line or slower line I'll listen to soft music, on a fast line like the 7X or 5 I'll listen to dance/club music.
Some of the best songs for railfaning are
America-From a Moving Train
Dave Koz-That's the way (I Feel about you)
Mike and the Mechanics- Another Cup of Coffee
Robert Miles-Children
Everything but the Girl-Missing (club mix)
for example
Of course, now that Heypaul's bootleg CD is out, you can ride on a train and have sounds from the olden days.
Lust For Life by Iggy is always good when you are in a vehicle that is rapidly increasing acceleration.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That would have been sacrilege in the days of the R-1/9s. OTOH there was no such thing as a walkman in those days. Maybe a portable 8-track player, but that was it.
Hi,
I have to travel from atlanta to harford, ct in feb... any suggestions on getting there?
I was thinking:
Plane to lga
taxi lga to gct
then metro-north to hartford...
is that crazy? are we better off renting a car at lga and driving? I am going with some coworkers who are not as rainfanny as i am
thanks for the help!
allen
Metro-North doesn't reach Hartford. The closest it comes is Waterbury, some 30 or 40 miles to the southeast. I have no idea whether there is any transit to speak of between the two points.
You could take Metro-North to New Haven then Amtrak to Hartford.
But then if you're with non-railfan co-workers, you probably are better off with a car--or at least Amtrak all the way from Penn Station.
:-) Andrew
Thanks Andrew... I saw East Hartford on the map... is that far away?
How long is the drive from lga to hartford in both non-rush and rush hour driving?
How many miles
THANK YOU!!
I'm actually not sure of the exact distance between Harford and Waterbury. Too far to walk, for sure! It would no doubt be an expensive cab ride.
Laguardia to Hartford is like a hundred-odd miles. I would take the eastbound Grand Central Parkway to I-678/Whitestone Expwy north over the Whitestone Bridge, then coninue on the Hutchinson River Pkwy, which becomes the Merrit Parkway/CT 15 in Connecticut, then it becomes the Wilbur Cross Pkwy, still CT 15. Exit at I-91 north to Hartford. This route is usually a lot lass traficked than I-95.
I would guess the car trip would be about 2 hours in non-rush hours. No telling what it could be in rush hour.
:-) Andrew
I'm actually not sure of the exact distance between Harford and Waterbury. Too far to walk, for sure! It would no doubt be an
expensive cab ride.
About 30 miles. Bonanza Bus runs between Waterbury and Hartford, but Metro-North's limited schedule to Waterbury might make this a difficult connection to coordinate. I would recommend Metro-North to Danbury, which has more trains than Waterbury, then Bonanza to Hartford.
You could fly to Hartford (actually Windsor Locks, a bit of a ways north of that city). P & WA has an airport in E. Hartford, but you could only fly in a test plane :-( There's also a small airport in Hartford, Brainard Field, don't know how much service goes there.
East Hartford is just across the Conn. river from Hartford. Could likely catch Ct Transit across the river.
Best rail from NYC is Amtrak out of Penn Station to Hartford, but not too many trains go to Hartford/Springfield. You could also take M-N to New Haven, then Amtrack from there. There's also buses out of The Port Auth in Manhattan that go to Hartford.
Honestly, you realy would have to love rail to want to do it from NY to Hartford.
Mr rt__:^)
That must be why I traveled by rail nearly every time I had to travel from Hartford to NY and back while in college. It's really not that bad of a trip. It's only slow going through Wallingford and Meriden because there the train runs through the centers of the towns. It can also sometimes be slow west of New Haven, but that part of the Corridor is controlled by Metro-North, so blame them if your train is slow.
What about Amtrak From Atlanta To NY Penn then change to the Hartford/Springfield Train?
As long as you're flying to LAG, you might as well connect to a flight right into Hartford/Springfield airport.
Metro-North doesn't reach Hartford. The closest it comes is Waterbury, some 30 or 40 miles to the southeast.
D'OH!! I meant Waterbury is 30 or 40 miles to the southwest of Hartford. My bad!
:-) Andrew
Maybe a flight into Westchester Airport
and rent a car from there on out...
Actually, airfare into Hartford (BDL) itself isn't that expensive.
Mark
I'm not sure why you're not looking at the Hartford/Springfield airport (Bradley - BDL). Delta flies there non-stop from Atlanta.
If cost is an issue, AirTran is a low fare airline which flies non-stop from Atlanta to Boston (about 100 miles from Hartford). Delta generally matches the AirTran fares when they compete in a particular market -- so you may be able to get a very good deal on Delta.
CG
STOP ADVOCATING AIRLINES. THIS IS A RAIL TRANSIT SITE!
Interesting point.
My own opinion is that rail and air both serve different needs, and that a good transportation system uses and integrates both. Air can serve the cross country trips, while rail is harnessed for shorter journeys. In a really perfect world the two could be used in one trip, taking rail from small city directly into the big city airport hubs.
Mark
Air travel should only be used if no alternate rail option exists. For example, going to Europe, Alaska or Asia.
That is, until they build that Bering Strait tunnel!
Mark
Your opinion brings up a fun speculative question...
If we had all the money in the world, and no one to stop us, and the best technology that is likely to emerge in the next two decades or so, what kind of cross-country rail system does everyone think could be built? What technology would it use, how fast would it go, and what kind of travel times would we have for a trip from New York to Los Angeles?
Mark
Maglev trains are testing in Germany with a top speed of 375 KPH.
Forget that. Rail should mainly be regional and compete with commuter airlines. Rail should connect with major airports to feed them. Rail simply cannot compete with airplanes with distances over 600-700 miles. Business travelers, the bread and butter of the travel industry, prefer speed over comfort. Time is money. Allen074 is going on a business trip with non-railfans, his company can't afford him to spend a night getting there, presumably.
Domestic airlines are pure evil and I have been boycotting them for several years now. Everybody should stop flying until they stop treating passengers like maneuer. The rule of thumb is that traveling always takes a day. You can either spend that time in an airport or in a nice comfey train.
That's spelled "manure", Mike.
"The rule of thumb is that traveling always takes a day"
Perhaps that's your rule of thumb. Mine is: If the meeting takes less than 6 hours and you can make the trip in about three hours each way, then you do it as a day trip. That means 6 AM flights to cities as far away as Dallas or Houston arriving back in NY at about 10PM or later. Basically, I can fly to Dallas, have an all day meeting and be home watching Letterman before Amtrak gets me anywhere near Texas.
Having sampled both the airlines and Amtrak quite frequently, I'd have to describe Amtrak's level of service as that most approaching the manure line.
CG
Ok, you have a bias, I'm trying to look at this from an overall perspective. One day is way too long. Domestic travel (and all domestic travel, in general) should be no more than 5 hours. International travel no more than overnight. Anything longer is for the pleasure folks who want to take their time.
I guess it wasn't clear what your objective was. If it's speed, fly to Hartford (Bradley Intl Airport).
Add two hours each way stand in the security line and another hour each way getting too and from the airport.
What would your arguement have been pre 9/11 about standing in security lines? Besides, the airports have gotten their act together and the wait is no more than 30 minutes.
The wait on Amtrak is 0 minutes. Before 9/11 my arguement was general congestion and waiting for hours stuck out on the tarmac.
Later on when you're out in the real world and your employer doles out vacation in weekly increments, and you want to go to California for a week and actually have time to DO things there, you'll change your tune.
First, I am also boycotting the West Coast so I wouldn't be caught going there. Second, I firmly believe that getting there is more fun than the actual destination. Exemples include last year's trip to Topeka KA for a Wedding via Amtrak and last week's 36 hour Amtrak trip to Washington DC via Cleveland. I had 8 hours in Cleveland and it was more than enough (spent most of that practicing night photography). I guess I am at odds w/ the concept of a Vacation Destination. Why do people need to go to some organized place to have fun? You should start having fun as soon as you get in your car. BTW, since my dad got his new job, we haven't gone on anything resembling a "vacation" since 1996.
True, the trip should be at least half the fun. Even when I do fly I try to schedule long layovers rather than short one, so that I can get out and explore my layover cities.
Mark
So you're also boycotting the Coast Starlight, the California Zephyr, the Pioneer, the San Diegan (or whatever it's called these days), the CalDOT Coaster, BART and MTA(Los Angeles) Metro, the Empire Builder, the Southwest Chief, and San Diego Transit's trolley line to the border, right?
Some railfan you are...
Empire Builder, the Southwest Chief, California Zephyr, the Pioneer and the Sunset Limited are all acceptable as long as I do not enter CA, WAS or ORE. Anyway, all those Western railroads are seriously dodgey what with their non-electrified, non-PRR, route signaled, lo-density single track lines.
Hey I love trains, that's why I'm here! But let me think of a simple trip.... NY to Florida. 2 hours by plane, or almost a day and a half by train...... I'll take the two hour route.
"Air travel should only be used if no alternate rail option exists. For example, going to Europe, Alaska or Asia."
Alaska is a bad example. You can take Amtrak to Seattle, transfer to VIA Rail across the border (I believe Amtrak will bus you there) at Vancouver, then take VIA Rail, changing trains once, to a ferry which will take you to the Alaska panhandle.
Shame on you, Jersey Mike! Trying to cheat VIA out of a fare to Alaska?
Actually, you don't have to change trains at all. You can get on the Alaska ferry at Bellingham, Washington. That way, you never have to go through customs.
The down side is that from a railfan point of view, you don't get to ride VIA, and by missing Vancouver you miss a chance to ride their Sky Train.
Mark
True. You have choices...
I am referring to mainland Alaska, not the panhandle.
To get tothe Mainland, you need to fly.
But you can fly from the panhandle, and thereby not miss out on railfanning and ferry-fanning...
WHAT KIND OF A RAILFAN ARE YOU, ANYWAY?
:0)
If you wanted to get from the "lower 48"* to interior Alaska without flying, you could drive it via whatever route to Brittish Columbia then the Alaska Highway, a more or less direct route to Fairbanks albeit a very indirect route to Anchorage. Roads reach only a small part of Alaska, though.
:-) Andrew
*Technically isn't "lower 48" a misnomer. Obviously we're further south than Alaska, but Hawaii's northernmost point is quite a ways south of the 48 contigious states. If you wanted to be to a stick-in-the-mud you could say the "lower 48" is everything but Alaska and Washington State.
:-D Andrew
It's an indirect route to Anchorage, but to get from Fairbanks to Anchorage would mean a ride on the Alaska Railroad, a railfan dream trip of mine, plus the train goes by Denali National Park for great views of Mt. McKinnley I'm told.
Mark
The views from the railroad are nice but not great. To really see the mountain you need to spend some time in the park.
When I was there they had free shuttle busses from the railhead into the park, and in fact banned cars except for people with confirmed camping reservations.
Would it be OK to advocate for a cargo airline chartering Antonov 224's or the C-5 Galaxy to carry a subway car?
:0)
Depends on where you are shipping it to.
I suppose if you were shipping the car from one end of the subway line to the other, the airplane might not be appropriate.
Mark
I don't see anything wrong with advocating the fastest and cheapest way to get somewhere. I'm a railfan, but the thought of spending 16 hours or more on the one Amtrak per day from Atlanta to New York is absolutely mind-numbing.
Perhaps with the time and money saved he can visit some of the trolley museums up in Connecticut. Maybe even buy a souvenir!
CG
Actually, I like to fly because I'm a railfan. The more I fly through Atlanta, the more I get to go railfanning on MARTA.
Mark
Bravo for you. MARTA is underappreicated on this board. For me, I enjoy it, but it's gets boring at times, but that's becuase I ride it everyday.
Yeah, I don't always appreciate my own wonderful SEPTA M-4 cars that I ride everyday, too. Also, One can easily get bored with a system that only has two lines. Philadelphia and Atlanta could both use more lines, that's for sure. But I'd give just about anything if SEPTA's two lines were as clean and nice-looking as MARTA's two lines!
I've asked this before, but if you were to build more lines in Atlanta, no realistic restrictionsof cash or NIMBYs, where would you build them?
Mark
It'll be easier to draw a map. I'll make a crude map later tonight showing what I'd like to see.
Great! I can't wait to see the map.
Mark
Here you go:
Orange and blue lines are existing. The thin lines are extensions of the existing lines, and the red, green and Purple are all new lines. All of this is using heavy rail subways, of course.
West line: should be extended to FIB and some other point west. This is actually likely to happen in 10 years.
Procter Creek line: extend to Perry Homes, and make service end at Avondale all times except late night, with the Vine City-Perry Homes shuttle during that time. This station was in original MARTA plan, but not likely to happen now.
South line: Extended from the airport down the a new soutern terminal. This too likely to happen, a new terminal down there is in the works. A branch just south of East Point to the new international terminal on the eastside ajacent to Concourse E. The terminal will be built, but the MARTA extension, probably not.
More on ATL's expansion: Master plan
East line: not really anything worth extending to
Northeast line: Extended to Norcross is a must, beyond Norcross would be nice, but I don't think it is nessasary.
North line: Can be extended past North Springs. Talk about this is going on now.
Red line (Northwest-southeast line): From Marietta in Cobb County, thru the business district of Cumberland, thru Atlantic Station, transfer at Arts Center. This segment will likey have light rail by 2010. Then going thru the Druid Hills and Emory neighborhoods. The Emory area is very congested and MARTA bus service is busy there. Transfer to Edgewood/Candler Park and cross over I-20 and turn east toward Lithonia, where a lot of new development is happening. This corridor is quite busy with bus service also and MARTA is conducting a study for a rail line in this area. However, their plan would connect it to the East line.
Green Line (Perimeter line): Would start at Marietta with the NW-SE line, and diverge after Cumberland and follow I-285 to Dunwoody (Perimeter Center, the largest office market in the city) Trasfer for the North line, then continue along I-285 and merge with NE line north of Doraville, would continue to Norcross. A light rail is being studied using this basic alignment.
Purple line (Thomasville busway): I pick a busway becuase the area has demand, but not enough to warrant rail service. Starts at GA State and would pass by Turner Field (was built with PRIVATE funds :-) ) and continue the Thomasville. This plan was in the original MARTA plan, except that it connected at Candler Park.
but the thought of spending 16 hours or more on the one Amtrak per day from Atlanta to New York is absolutely mind-numbing.
YEAH RIGHT! Bring your scanner and a camera for some active fun and you can go to this website: http://www.trainweb.org/csxtimetables/Site/contents.html and print out all the timetables for your route and then chart your progress as you go, making note of interlockings, signal instalations and freight movements. You can challenge your friends to a game of "lease unit bingo". Best of all, depending on when the train leaves Atlanta, you can go to sleep in those nice comfey Amfleet I seats with the leg and foot rests. Why waste time sleeping at home, do it while you travel and wake up at your destination. Also, due to Amtrak's current loading levels you can probably secure 2 or 4 seats to yourself and the door windows on Amfleet 1's can open giving you a great railfan view (although they are not as good as the windows on Superliners or Horizon coaches).
I don't know about you, but my wife and I like the Deluxe Bedroom. My own bathroom, shower, a great view and reservations in the restaurant car.
The problem w/ the bedrooms is that they only offer a view out of one side of the train. If the train starts wrong railing you loose your trackside view. Back in coach you can stake out a whole row accross OR hang out in the "dome" car OR stake out the railfan view out the rear window (the superliners can see over the freight cars on the rear). Have you ever taken a window shot? See, you can open the windows on the platform doors. When you are overtaking a train on an adjacent track you wait until you pass then head end power. You then throw open the windoe, stick your head/camera out and get an amazing shot.
Indeed. But a deluxe bedroom, on the Second level of a Superliner, pushes the aisle out to the side - so you have access to the aisle window because there is no bedroom opposite you.
With the economy bedroom you have to hope the bedroom opposite you is unoccupied. If so, the train crews don't mind if you shoot pictures out its windows.
Bring your scanner and a camera for some active fun and you can go to this website: http://www.trainweb.org/csxtimetables/Site/contents.html and print out all the timetables for your route and then chart your progress as you go, making note of interlockings, signal instalations and freight movements.
Most people here would find that a lot of fun. Unfortunately, the original poster said that he'd be traveling with a couple of non-railfans, and they'd probably find that sort of activity dead boring.
I just got back and I went Amtrak. Heading South I had a double seat the whole trip. The legroom is great. I was able to strecth my legs all the way forward and lean all the way back and still not hit the seat in front. The seats also have a lower portion that can be raised which when combined with lowering both seats gives a sort of bed, bed it uneven and plus you can walk to the lounge car.
Jist try to be sure you dont have a person with a waist problem sitting next to you! (I did not. I have ridden on greyhound where I had a quarter of the aisle seat holding on to stay off the floor or squashed against the window.)
As far as delays, the airlines also have delays. I am hooked on Amtrak and plan on doing it again. Plus no one has* *really* hijacked train- a train cannnot go to Cuba or crash into a building and on the NE Corridor and probably other areas a Train which was oeprated by a hijacker or disturbed person could be stopped by cutting electric power, switch or signal changes.
Amtrak NE now requires photo ID at least in NY. Even in Georgia they had signs asking for photo ID-"No photo ID no ticket".
The Amtrak station is Atlanta is very small and the platform is low platform- even after the Olympics. I thought for sure Big A would have high platforms due to the olympics.
Perhaps Rob can fill us in on continuing proposals for a new Downtown Amtrak Station(High platforms probably being new construction) and Georgia Commuter Rail (ie Metro North, LIRR, VRE, etc.)
I wasn't expecting any improvments to that station for the Olympics. This is an airline town, not an Amtrak town.
The "Multimodal Passenger Terminal" (what a bland name) is a project the GA DOT is taking up, I work for them full time as a co-op student and my department will eventually design it. The project is still under study, so no design work had started. It will be between 5 Pts and Dome/GWCC and it might take up several blocks.
The terminal will house a new Greyhound bus terminal, a bus terminal for the various suburban express buses, MARTA buses might be moved to over there, Amtrak, commuter rail for the metropolitan area, intrastate rail, and retail and business. Also, connections to Five Points will be made. This will be a big project!
Most sites I found were dated 1999, but this one should give you a good overview.
Thanks! I bookmarked the site. Good luck with the project.
Wrong, Mike. This is a subway transit site. Discussions of Amtrak, though tolerated, are strictly speaking off-topic. (From the SubTalk header: "It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only." Amtrak is not transit.)
That said, Amtrak is sometimes just not practical. For instance, how would you recommend traveling from Champaign, IL to NYC? Say I wanted to leave Champaign on 3/20/02 and return a week later. If I took the train, I'd be leaving Champaign at 6:10am and arriving in NYC the following day at 3:00pm, thanks to a 10:10 layover in Chicago. On the return trip, the layover is "only" 7:35. This would cost me $212. For $230, I could fly American with same-day service, or I could take Travelocity up on its unbranded $142 option (which would still be about a day faster than Amtrak in each direction). Or, if I had a car at my disposal, I could drive for under $100 in about 15 hours each way.
Take Amtrak's Cresent into DC Union Station and then catch an inland route train to Hartford. Simple as that and you'll get some super railfanning in.
I don't doubt thar the railfanning would be great. But this appears to be a business trip. I assume that time is of the essence.
:-) Andrew
Aside from the NEC you would get a nice trip on CSX from Atlanta to DC including the RF&P Sub.
"I don't doubt thar the railfanning would be great. But this appears to be a business trip. I assume that time is of the essence."
I've taken more than one business trip by overnight train, specifically from Chicago to Washington D.C. and to New Orleans. My employer paid for coach (but not the upgrade to sleeper) because in both cases I left Chicago after 6pm and on the return trip arrived in Chicago before 10am. In other words, leaving on Sunday night and arriving Monday afternoon was no more time-consuming from the company's perspective than the other people from the office leaving Chicago by plane late Monday morning and arriving early Monday afternoon.
Southwest airlines flys into Bradley Airport, as does US air and American and a few others. Bradley is a few miles north of Hartford. You'd either need to get a bus or an cab down. I think there's a CT transit bus that runs fairly reguarly, but not off hours. It'd take you to the Old State House in Hartford, which is effectively downtown.
You could consider taking the M60 bus from LaGuardia to 125th Street in the Bronx and then take Metro North to New Haven. At New Haven, change to Amtrak to go to Hartford.
Michael
Carriers like Southwest Airlines serve Bradley International Airport (BDL). There is some CT Transit service to downtown Hartford (go to www.cttransit.com and download some schedules in PDF format). Bradley is Exit 40 from I-91 near the Windsor/Windsor Locks town line (CT Route 20 is the road to the airport). The airport is about 13 miles north of downtown Hartford. CT Transit has connections to East Hartford. One of them is the "B" bus to Silver Lane (also serves as a secondary run to Buckland Hills Mall in Manchester). Amtrak services Union Station which is Exit 48 (48A Eastbound) from I-84 in Hartford.
Allen, are you visiting this area for the first time or did you once live "up here"?
Carriers like Southwest Airlines serve Bradley International Airport (BDL). There is some CT Transit service to downtown Hartford (go to www.cttransit.com and download some schedules in PDF format). Bradley is Exit 40 from I-91 near the Windsor/Windsor Locks town line (CT Route 20 is the road to the airport). The airport is about 13 miles north of downtown Hartford. CT Transit has connections to East Hartford. One of them is the "B" bus to Silver Lane (also serves as a secondary run to Buckland Hills Mall in Manchester). Amtrak services Union Station which is Exit 48 (48A Eastbound) from I-84 in Hartford.
Allen, are you visiting this area for the first time or did you once live "up here"?
This is probably a FAQ and/or probably off-topic, but I'm curious why none of the diesel lines in NJ (Raritan Valley for example) run into NY Penn Station? Someone told me that it is because the diesels would consume all of the air in the tunnel, but I'm not sure I believe that and am interested in confirmation. -Thanks
Not off-topic at all! This is rail-transit related.
I know that there is poor ventilation in the East River Amtrak/LIRR tubes, which is why you can't run diesels there. I suspect it is the same with the Amrtak/NJ Transit Hudson River tubes.
Plus the grade would tax the diesel to a point it will stall. Plus lack of fresh cool air would shut down the disesl (Southern Pacific uses diesels that draw cooler air close to the ground.)
Diesels in general foul up the air. Even if they're not dangerously foul, passengers end up breathing the exhaust and getting really unhappy.
I'm not aware of any diesels in any heavily used tunnels (as opposed to something in the Rockies that gets 1 passenger train per day).
The diesels out of GCT are dual mode: 3rd rail and diesel, and don't operate in diesel mode until they're outside.
They use diesels at Chicago Union Station (an undergrouns facility). The air quality is so poor you can see the gray exhaust always hanging in the air. It burns the eyes/throat and gives you a headache.
Chicago Union Station may be below street level, but it's hardly underground. It's pretty open, especially on the river side.
Even so, trains usually operate their lights and HVAC plugged into station power, and they don't start up the diesels until about two minutes prior to departure.
And the fumes can still give you a headache.
I'd hate to try running diesels into a station which was really underground.
-- Ed Sachs
It's more of a question of the steepness of the grades than anything else.
The tunnels have a 1.3% grade (according to Pensy Power I). You can compare this to the 1.83% grade on Horseshoe curve and the 2+% at Sand Patch and Locust Summit. I believe that the limitation is air quality. Back in steam days the locomotives would suck all the good air out of the tunnel. Today I believe there would be a problem w/ the CO and diesel soot settling down at the bottom of the tube.
Yeah, but in/out of Penn, you need trains that can not only maintain as high as 60mph, but be able to stop and then start again, and accelerate. In a decent amount of time.
That's probably tied with the number one concern. Stall your train at or near the Hudson tunnel, and you've toasted the entire rail system into New York...
We need a second set of tracks. Write your legislators and support NJ Transit's request for one.
Or, stall a train in any tunnel in/out of Penn, you screw the rush. I've heard the LIRR 'protect motors' at Harold are more show than go - and would be hard pressed to pull a dead MU out of the tunnels. I know when Amtrak runs anything more than a short P-32 hauled train, they normally double up, even on trains that one AEM-7 or E-60 handles.
Given how much diesels suck at acceleration, and suck on grades, It's no wonder it's not done into penn as a regular thing - you'd never be able to get the trains through. Not to mention, imagine the smell and smoke?
Given how much diesels suck at acceleration, and suck on grades,
But you are forgetting that in the tunnels the P32's are operating in electric mode. They can suck as much juice as the 3rd rail can handle.
I've heard the LIRR 'protect motors' at Harold are more show than go - and would be hard pressed to pull a dead MU out of the tunnels.
Their orders are to PUSH the problem train out of the tube. If you look back to the early days of diesel power you'll see a single 1500hp unit pulling 45 cars. For grade pushing you need TF more than HP. This is why they have diesel hump trailers, usually attached to a 2000hp locomotive. With a trailer you have the same hp spread over double the motors and this is enough to push a full sized freight train over a hump. At HAROLD there are two MP-15's each w/ 1500hp and 4 traction motors. This should be more than enough to push 14 light weight M1 MU cars.
I don't understand why you guys have such a problem with diesels. On British Rail we regularly run diesels through tunnels, and they outperform electrics in terms of acceleration. Granted that we have sucky electrics, but diesel technology can be made to perform just as well. Genesises are very capable engines.
Oh by the way, hello from all of us attending TRB in Washington, DC. I suspect half of Subtalk people are here. I saw lots of interesting stuff on the new V train and the 63rd St Tunnel (I think that's what they were talkign about). Some NY Transit guy was using track diagrams identifible as one shown on NYCSubway.org in his presentation!!!
Lexcie
Post about the TRB then why don't you.
"I don't understand why you guys have such a problem with diesels."
Two words: passenger comfort.
You just can't keep the exhaust out of the passenger compartments.
"But you are forgetting that in the tunnels the P32's are operating in electric mode. They can suck as much juice as the 3rd rail
can handle."
Wait a minute. Do the electric motors on a P32 run any harder off third rail than when the diesel is spinning their generator?
I'd be interested to know the horsepower-weight ratio of a P32 in electric mode. How does that compare to an E60 or AEM-7? That big diesel engine represents dead weight.
The HP:Weight ratio of the AEM-7 is the highest of any locomotive in the US, still. The P-32 is less than 1/2, and I think the E-60 is too. Most conventional US diesels are even more dismal than the '32. IIRC, the ratings are slightly higher on third rail, but there's a time limit to how long they can run, and how fast.
I've heard through service from Albany to LI was considered using the turboliners, but was nixed because the third rail mode on those can't pull a loaded train through the tunnels.
I read somewhere that the steepest grade in the Hudson River tunnel is 1.92% eastbound approaching Penn Station. The famous GG1 electrics could start a 17 car train on that upgrade!
I had heard 1.92 also, but PPI says 1.3 with a pic of a 3600hp P5 pulling out a train.
I believe it's 1.92% for a brief portion as you approach the NJ side. In any case, I'd love to see a single unit diesel try to start even a 12 car train on that grade. And get up to track speed by the portal, a trick the GG-1 could no doubt do. The E-60 can do it too, I bet the AEM-7 can, or come really close, and the HHP-8 and ALP-46 should no problem. The most I've seen on an AEM-7 is 8 or maybe 10 cars, but I think HEP limits them more than anything, once they get rolling, they are pretty punchy little motors, I've heard.
Of course, such is the joys of electric traction - amazing short time overloads that make things like near 2% grades a non issue. And, of course, an MU train doesn't even flinch.
The most I've seen on an AEM-7 is 8 or maybe 10 cars, but I think HEP limits them more than anything...
Starting a train at the steepest grade is the limiting factor for the AEM-7's. The AC's pull more cars than the unrebuilt motors.
Since about 1900, steam and later Disel Locomotives unable to travel on Manhattan Island. Equiptment changes on NYC/PC/Conrail/Metro North Would be made at Harmon Yard & At Other Yards Outside Of NYC.
NY Law bans anything but electric after an early mishap with steam and the Park Abe Tunnel.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-red15.html
It may be that among the possible future plans, extension of the Red Line to 130th is a typo. Last I had heard, there was discussion of extending the Red Line via the East leg (I-94) to 103rd, but I think there had originally been a plan to extend via the West leg (I-57). For the latter, it really would make sense to extend to 130th, but the former would more likely be a typo (since even by 103rd the population appears to be relatively sparse [http://mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?pan=e&mapdata=uSSjFjlWFD%2b37VfQxOZoWWObBMNloR8FvkxQuAogQ9NvuROSgVzENPRaWAXDSNqj%2f7cyhIPHc4c8X3%2fT59bGmJ4HfCnVnNfQnAX1xaq4xsVeNJhaynZIsULSj5cOwCMw3XsqwaFYYYYp4E%2bO%2fENEt2eUUYURFMTO2SdB%2b%2f8uPy1pM21wCnOJwaFzOTLKACE8d2wIwGS0ZthiNZIEJShmGNMUAg7NMl8X0QmaUIAJELuuKEnMRFLM0FsDIn01TIEkMaD0%2bKDwXV5QmCn%2bRhu3RxuHO5RRAHin]).
Anybody know any more about this in particular? In general, it's nice to see evidence that the Chicago system is finally being maintained/improved.
Chris
It's probably a typo; there have been long-range plans to extend the Red Line to 103rd for a while now.
The main body of the article also had some tidbits that would be of interest to some SubTalkers:
Station, power, and track improvements to Dan Ryan branch of Red Line
Skokie Swift to lose catenary this summer, and become fully third-rail
Other expansion plans, including Orange Line to Ford City, Yellow Line to Old Orchard, Blue Line to Schaumburg, Blue Line express trains from Loop to O'Hare, and Metra from O'Hare to Midway.
Here's the link again:
Red Line to get major rehab
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hopefully a couple of the extensions get built.
Of course, it's really important the rehabs get done right. Some of Chicago's transit lines, I see, resemble what was going on in NY prior to the Capital Plans...
Chicago's Metra is also expanding two lines. The UP-W line is extending west from Geneva to Elburn, and Southwest service is expanding from Orland Park to Manhattan. www.metrarail.com
has information on this.
If the SS becomes third-rail, I presume that would eliminate the train change at Howard. A rush-hour express from Skokie to the Loop would be a fun ride.
Not necessarily, as the platforms at Dempster (IIRC) are only long enough for 4-car trains. However, they could be extended without too much difficulty.
If it were up to me, I'd consolidate the Yellow Line into the Purple Line, with Purple Line express trains beginning at Dempster and heading straight into the Loop for a one-seat ride. The Red Line, instead of terminating at Howard, would then make local stops through Evanston to Linden.
However, you can be sure the fine people of Evanston would be screaming bloody murder for losing their one-seat express ride into the Loop, and the headways for the Evanston portion are much longer than the rest of the Red Line.
On a related subject, I noticed in the Sun-Times article that part of the rehab of the Dan Ryan branch of the Red Line will involve lengthening the platforms. Why? The Red Line already operates 8-car trains down there. It would be nice if they could eventually run 10-car trains on the Red Line -- God knows it needs the extra capacity -- but that would mean also lengthening the platforms on the North Side. I wonder if this is a long-term plan the CTA has up its sleeve, or if there's some other reason to lengthen the platforms on the South Side?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Given that the trains to Dempster are four cars, and an express could run direct to the Loop, would you need more than four cars? True, passengers at Howard would not be able to board but I'm talking about an express with no stops between Dempster and, let's say, the Merchandise Mart.
I like a different model for express trains. Granted, the current purple line express would be improved by changing it back from running local from Belmont to the Loop, but I think limited stops for express is fundamentally important (especially to advocate as serving any other than a single favored area). For example, the Skokie Swift to the Loop, I would envision as having stops at Howard, Loyola, Belmont and Fullerton (I was tempted to remove the either the latter, but DePaul University would be an important regular-fare-generating destination; perhaps I could be persuaded that Belmont isn't necessary), Merchandise Mart, and the Loop. How about a reverse journey around the Loop--that is, Merchandise Mart then Clark/Lake in the mornings (inbound) and Clark/Lake then Merchandise Mart in the evenings (outbound)? Is there any precedent for that, or could that ever be done?
some thoughts from a one time Chicagoan. 1. Belmont is a necessity--its the junction
2trying to reverse dirction on the Loop soetime during the afternoon would be highly disruptive
3 train length/routes/loads. extending trains to Skokie might work IF te ridership ramps up fast enough to justify the equipment diversion of 8 car trains. The run though rather than terminate time at Howard might make it all work faster. OTOH if CTA ever starts running ten car trains on the South Side Redline, major changes would be necessary between the north portal and Edgewater-Berwyn. Unlikely in this decade.
I think even a Skokie originated express should at least stop at Belmont.
Didn't the Evanston Express once upon a time stop at Loyola? I think that Wilson was an express stop, too, back before the yard burned down.
probably, my memory of the Evanston Express stop profile is dim. The changes over the years have been 'all over the map'. The real issues are. of course, trip origin destination pars and operational constraints.
As a policy issue, I think Belmont as a junction w/Ravenswoof is necessary. beyond that I have been gone too long to have a feel for current traffic patterns.
It used to stop at Morse and Loyola going towards the Loop in the
morning and coming back in the afternoon. Ran on outside tracks
the other times.
How long ago was that? For the longest time, the Evanston Express ran nonstop between Howard and Merchandise Mart.
In the late 60s (maybe into the early 70s), the Evanston Expresses stopped at Morse and Loyola, but ran non-stop between Loyala and Merchandise Mart. There were crossovers between the express and local tracks south of Loyola.
-- Ed Sachs
I rarely ever rode on the Red Line north of Bryn Mawr; however, I could watch trains from my aunt and uncle's 44th floor condo on the lakefront. There were temporary switches once on either side of Thorndale; what would now be called Red Line trains were bypassing Thorndale on the outer tracks due to what appeared to be trackwork. It used to be very interesting to watch that line during different times of the day: 8-car trains during rush hours; 4-car trains during middays and Sundays; 6-car trains on Saturdays; and 2-car train at night and early Sunday.
Over the years the Evanston Express has had many stopping patterns.
From what I've been told by a motorman who worked the Evanston, before the tower was removed at Granville, the southbound AM Evanston ran from Howard on the inner two tracks making both Morse and Loyola. It then crossed over to the outside express tracks and ran directly to the Merhandise Mart - then made all the stops in the Loop. On the morning return northbound trip it was express from the Mart to Howard. Can you imagine riding a train of 4000's on one of those trips? The PM rush hour reversed this pattern, with southbound running express from Howard to the Mart, and return northbound trips crossing over at Granville to make Loyola and Morse before arriving it Howard. I have a card timetable for the Evanston Express from about 1965 which shows this service - and trains ran every three minutes at the height of the rush hour.
The next change was to run express from Howard to the Mart. This was routine until about 1987 or 1990 - IIRC.
The next change had the express trains stopping at Belmont, Fullerton and Chicago Avenue, between Howard and the Mart. There were several sets of PCC's still handling these runs until their retirement in 1995. This service lasted until the OPTO in 1997, when the trains ran express only between Howard and Belmont. I then referred to it as the Evanston NOT Express. However, if you're going to Howard, the train does skip quite a few stops between Belmont and Howard.
The trip between Belmont and Howard would be faster on the mainline (Red) if A-B Skip stop service still operated, but that ended in 1995.
I don't recall Wilson being a stop for the Evanston.
Evanston Express service has been expanded in December for early morning (reverse riders gain here) and later evening service. I hope that the service works out, draws some good patronage, and they keep it after the 6-month test.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
I remember when the 4000s ran on the Evanston Express, only I never rode on them. The all-steel 4000s weren't exactly speedsters by Chicago's standards; IIRC their top speed was 40-45 mph. I could always tell when they went by my aunt's apartment building because they sounded distinctly different from the 6000s.
Now that you mention it, you're right - there should be a stop at Belmont since it's a junction between the Red and Brown lines. An important spot for traffic.
A question on the Brown: The line bends near the Steppenwolf and Royal George theaters. Why? It's been a few months since I road the line and I can't recall any obstructions that necessitated the bend.
Why lengthen platforms? Perhaps to add alternate exits at the next southerly crossover and get rid of those horrible side trips by the connecting buses (i.e., going a half-mile north (say, from 59th/61st up to 55th) in side street traffic and back). I always thought that the red line in the Ryan median was curiously slow, so it was good to hear that speeds can be increased.
Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to keep the Purple line as it is, with the Red line extended to Skokie (perhaps with some short-turns at Howard)? Nobody's service is reduced, and Skokie finally gets direct service, albeit local, to the Loop.
the problem is load/car usage. The Red I believe is 8/rush the Yellow is 2 cars. So aside from enlarging the platform at Dempster, which is relarively easy, the question is why run 8 car trains out there five days a week and nothing on weekends. Mind you, in my dreams I would run it 7 days extend it miles north and maybe an Electroburger and chips....
realisticly, if it were extended down the main as a split of the Purple, that's a start.
Then you'd have to bring back at least one of the Electroliners.:-)
I'm sure the engineering drawings are somewhere. The only requirement is money (will that is).
Maybe IRM could loan their Electroliner.:-)
True. So how about having most Reds terminate at Howard, with every fourth or fifth train continuing through to Dempster? Does the track layout support such operation? The Purple line would remain unchanged.
its years since I have spent an afternoon there, so I am not au courant on the trackage. That said, I elieve it should be easy enough to send an occasional Red line train out there. My caveat was, more about having 8 car trains running to Dempster. AND, what's the likelihood CTA would wake up and start running to Dempster 7 days and fasp 24 hours? Is there a market? Or more accurately, how long will it take to grow a ridership CTA will feel satisfied by?
How come the CTA seems to be pushing so many expansion plans as compared to the MTA?????
"How come the CTA seems to be pushing so many expansion plans as compared to the MTA?????"
Chicago simply excels at getting public money!
One thing that I think Frank Kruesi has brought to the CTA is his ability to get more funds from the public pot. That makes him OK with Mayor Daley.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
They should clone him and send the clone to New York then.
I think that it's a matter of catch up. So much of the system was ignored for so long (prior to the first major revitalization project, the green line rehab of the 90s), but, now that there has been such an increase in ridership, it's impossible to deny the need of major transit investment.
Your question confuses me, though? Isn't the 2d Av. Subway something far greater in scope than any revitalization projects, even combined? I doubt an entirely new line will come to Chicago anytime soon.
I doubt an entirely new line will come to Chicago anytime soon.
You forget our new Orange Line to Midway, which opened in 1993. While it's admittedly much less of an ordeal to built a rapid transit line above-ground along existing freight ROW's than to build a new subway in a dense urban area, our Orange Line was designed, funded, and built in an instant compared to the Second Avenue Subway. (That said, a plan for an Archer Avenue Subway to Midway Airport has been floated as early as the 20's, but today's Orange Line uses a different alignment.)
The main reason there's currently no plans for entire new CTA lines is that, once the Orange Line was built, there aren't really any more corridors or destinations that are really screaming for rapid transit service that would require a new line. The only exception to this, aside from fantasy plans by SubTalkers, would be a crosstown line along Cicero Avenue from Skokie to Ford City and then west to the Red and Green Lines. But that's already a long-range plan by the CTA, and may be accellerated if Daley really wants a direct rail connection between O'Hare and Midway.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I did indeed forget the orange line, but then I figured no retraction was in order because that proves another point, which is that Chicago wouldn't build a _subway_ (and as you point out, that was at one point the idea). My vote for pragmatic Chicago fantasy plan is Grand Avenue, since it would make a nice corridor for a subway, in the areas between the blue and green lines (which admittedly are somewhat shady but also are beautiful areas of the city undergoing redevelopment [e.g., Humboldt Park]) and in River North, which lacks a good connection to the NW side and the O'Hare line.
"The main reason there's currently no plans for entire new CTA lines is that, once the Orange Line was built, there aren't really any more corridors or destinations that are really screaming for rapid transit service that would require a new line."
That's true in that there's no significant popular or political pressure for a whole new rapid transit line. But it seems to me that the almost bizarre proliferation of express bus routes from Lincoln Park, Edgewater, and Rogers Park down the inner and outer Lake Shore Drive and Marine Drive to north Michigan Avenue -- the endless parade of series 13_ and 14_ bus routes at rush hour -- is, by itself, a STRONG argument that enough ridership exists in the areas significantly (read: too far to easily walk) east of the Red-Purple-Brown trunk line to support an entirely new line.
I envision a route* using the outer, Purple Line, tracks from Howard to a turnoff -- somewhere between Berwyn and Sheridan stations, or perhaps where Clark passes under the line -- to a new subway under Sheridan and then Clark, turning down Oak to finally pass under north Michigan Avenue itself and end at a terminal near the Metra Electric terminal at Randolph Street. This would allow, at a later point in the future, for a through north lakefront-south lakefront route (with two IC/MetElec tracks set up for third rail and stations at rapid-transit spacing added) as far south as (say) Kensington or South Chicago.
*Probably titled Yellow, reusing the color after Red Line trains are run through to Dempster St. Skokie as a result of the third rail project.
interesting thought. see my other post about a simple method for boosting Met Elec usage and utility. When I was a teenager, CTA had dreams of a westside crosstown perhaps along Western Ave. The proposed O'Hare to Midway would provide this limk. Toobad they tore down the Humboldt Park Branch.
That area, and the Metra stations come closest to screaming for rapid transit.
There are some abandoned rail embankments that could prob. be cheaply converted and support rapid transit: the 49th embankment the orange line runs on goes east all of the way to the Dan Ryan, a spur from the Dan Ryan to Midway would have decent traffic stations at Damen, and vedry high one at Ashland.
The embankment the orange line runs down east of Western cuts down a long way, and probably could support decent stations, 55th, Marquette. maybe some others.
On the north side the embankment that runs along Bloomington (between North and Armitage) runs through the area between the blue and Green line, I'd imagine that it would have pretty decent ridership, a metra line uses this for a bit.
Here's a fantasy line for Chicago. Converting the underutilized Metra Electric South Chicago Branch to rapid transit. There's need for such a service as evidenced by the heavy ridership on the #6 & #14 Lake Shore Drive express lines and neighborhood densities. Plenty of room on the mainline for a conversion but this line clearly couldn't run at grade level on the branch. Don't think there's the political will for this though. Besides, think of all the NIMBYs!
why wreck something that woeks well already. The "simple" and equitable step is swipe to enter usage of CTA farecards for Metra )IC) service within city limits whether or on the mainline or the branches.
The major reason my granddad switched from the IC to the (then) 5X Jeffrey was price--because the net time from 51st to the loop was the same. While that is ancient history, the times are still comparable. The IC pioneered mag stripe ticketing in the sixties. Worst case replacing all machines on the Metra lines with CTA compatibles should be relatibely cheap--not much new design. To go along with this policy change, encouraging CTA bus routes to make good transfer times with Metra. While we all 'love' the Red line in the Dan Ryan, frankly it was an expensive replacement for local service on the Rock Island which died out in the fifties.
"The 'simple' and equitable step is swipe to enter usage of CTA farecards for Metra )IC) service within city limits whether or on the mainline or the branches."
But the Metra Electric would still ultimately be a commuter line, not a rapid transit line. A train every two hours on Sundays, for instance, is clearly not rapid transit. A line doesn't have to run at 5-minute headways, but IMHO at least 3-4 trains an hour every hour from (say) 6AM to 12PM is a necessity to be called rapid transit.
RIGHT, In the fifties when I spent summers with my grandfather in South Shore, the IC ran trains on twenty minute headways between AM and PM rush after about 7 or so it got thinner but my point is that we have the ROW, and it it clearly underutilised compared to back then. Thus a program of integrating the service into the single fare system AND an increase in service would IMHO be a relatively cheap investment with a good potential.
The IC to me was a premium service over the express bus lines. One where you rarely had to stand and never got caught creeping through traffic around Solider Field, Grant Park and the in Loop.
I agree with the single fare Metra/CTA intergration within Chicago.
There was, IIRC, a feeble attempt in the 70's at CTA/IC rider intergration when CTA put transfer stamp machines (remember those)on some IC South Chicago branch platforms.
More would have to be done in addition to fare intergration and increasing service to make the Metra Electric service attractive. Like a massive capital improvement project to upgrade all South Side stations.
The L conversion fantasy was just that as I do prefer the service as is. I just see the potential with the major traffic generators along the lines from the Museum Campus, Solider Field, Mc Cormick Place, Museum of S & I, U of Chicago, as well as residential neighborhoods. All which could be better served by the existing Metra Electric lines.
Wgen I chose to use the 5X from 71st I always sat, when I used IC from the adjacent Bryn Mawr Station, I usually stood--at the railfan door at the very front next to the motorman. The seventies experiments are after my time there. Recently, RTA completely rebuilt the 'South Shore station at 71st % Exchange complete w/ full ADA.
Indeed my old neighborhood could use some TLC both transit and otherwise.
sorry earlier post should read 71st st although indeed the old 5x was also comparable to the IC in times from 51st to the Loop as well. In the sixties the Jeffrey express ran AM rush through late forenoon taaking shoppers downtown. Afternoon service began around 3pm.. Concurrently there was a '2' Hyde Patk Ecpress again directly competing with the IC. While I certainly applaud CTA's management for serving a market, they bled the IC. Now that its 'all one public entity' the emphasis should be on best service to the riders.
When the Dan Ryan line was conceived in the sixties, it was proposed to serve the Morgan Park and Beverly Hills area via the I-57 corridor. Residents of those neighborhoods strenuously objected. They considered themselves well served by the Rock Island's commuter lines. There was also a racial aspect; many did not want "those people" in their neighborhood. As a result, the terminal was set at 95th and State Streets.
Wow, I still have the Sun Times special section from the first day of
service on the Skokie Swift in 1964. It also shows a prototype of the
2000 series that has since been retired. I feel old...
There is no reason a Skokie train couldn't go to the Loop now, the
pantographs are flattened after Crawford. When the Evanston Line
(Purple) had trolley poles, the trains ran to the loop with the
poles lowered at South Blvd.
well, I was there that day.
> There is no reason a Skokie train couldn't go to the Loop now,
> the pantographs are flattened after Crawford. When the Evanston
> Line (Purple) had trolley poles, the trains ran to the loop with
> the poles lowered at South Blvd.
And, of course, on the same trackage used by the Skokie Swift, the North Shore Line's interurbans lowered their trolleys and ran into the Loop (and at some periods through to the Jackson Park Branch) from 1926 to 1963.
Alan Follet
Hercules, CA
Currently the CTA does not allow pan equipped 'L' cars to operate south of Clark Jct. This is located just north of Belmont. I'm guessing the reason for this rule is there are clearance problems between that location and the Loop.
A lowered pantograph is more obtrusive than a lowered trolley pole.
Additionally, would it make sense to equip a large portion of your fleet with expensive to maintain overhead equipment to run through service to the Loop? This was the question that George Krambles had to answer in 1964 when the Swift first opened. The need to keep non-standard equipment (i.e. pantographs) to a minimum is the main reason the 'Swift' only runs between Howard and Dempster.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
"Currently the CTA does not allow pan equipped 'L' cars to operate south of Clark Jct. This is located just north of Belmont. I'm guessing the reason for this rule is there are clearance problems between that location and the Loop."
The choice of Clark Junction as the cutoff would suggest that the problem is the pedestrian overpass at the Belmont Red/Purple/Brown station. Clark Junction is likely the last full set of switches (a train on one track can change to any other track) before Belmont, and therefore the last place to turn around before going CRUNCH with the ancient overpass.
Look some pics of the 7 line yesterday, including some from the railfan window. Also got a shot of the West End.
Take a look at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains soon!
Well, I answered my own question on new LIRR service to midtown.
The East Side Access project included $2 million in the 2000-2004 Capital Plan to do a design study of a pedestrian connection between a new Sunnyside Station (the station itself funded within ESA) and both Queensborough Plaza and Queens Plaza subway stations. The Sunnyside Station would serve trains headed for Penn Station, and would obviously not be used by Grand Central-bound LIRR consists, which would be underground at that point.
This would, in MTA's view, eliminate the need for an underground LIRR station in midtown other than the Grand Central terminus.
So an LIRR service intended to replace the never-built bypass Super Express on Queens Blvd. might look like: (other Queens stops?) then Jamaica-Kew Gardens-Forest Hills ---->Sunnyside(transfer to N,7 at Queensborough, transfer to E,V,G,R at Queens Plaza)--->Penn Station.
I assume a train stopping at Sunnyside would not stop at Woodside, and vice versa.
The Grand Central LIRR Service would be underground through the Sunnyside Yard and Yard A, according to the FEIS. So it could visit Woodside station, but not Sunnyside Station. Eastbound, some trains could do the Port Washington service, while others go to eastern Queens and onward.
It's seems like quite a hike from the LIRR Main Line in Sunnyside to Queensboro Plaza. Perhaps they'll install moving walkways like they have at Court Square/23rd-Ely
A hike? it's perhaps a one block walk to the E-R-V-G stop. N/7 is longer though...
They'll probably connect the platforms to the queens blvd. bridge. no moving sidewalks.
I certainly hpe they offer amany conveniences as possible. A canopy would be nice, to keep transferring passengers out of the rain and give them shade on summer days.
I think they might canopy the bridge sidewalks, though i don't recall where i read that. I feel bad for anyone that uses the stop to transfer to the N/7 though, unless they clean up that area before then. currently it's a haven for prostitutes, strip clubs, etc. (though met life (?) just moved an office there, a good sign).
B"H
is it me, or does it seem that rails deflect an awful lot when trains go over them? I was in bklyn bridge station and noticed that on the NB express tracks just north of the boards the rails literally must have moved an inch downwards and outwards as a train went over. Is that something to be concerned with? Is it normal for rails to deflect so much? I can understand a small amount, as trains are heavy, but how much is normal?
-yitz
Happens on embankments (I've noticed several spots especially) all the time.
Stuart, RLine86Man
And I think the reason why it is deflecting on Type II (concrete base) trackage is because the bolts that are supposed to support the wood ties are either becoming loose, or the ties are breaking down due to the constant shifting of the level of track.
Stuart, RLine86Man
It's a good thing to an extent, just like how bridges deflect a little under strain. If they didn't budge at all, they'd simply break under the pressure. Obviously if they deflect too much there's bound to be problems, but I think an inch or 2 is normal.
One more reason for R142 TBU failures.
Some deflection at an unsupported rail joint (i.e. a joint
which falls between two ties rather than on top of one) is
normal in the vertical direction. Any lateral motion, or
any significant deflection of rail other than at joints, is
a sign of poor track condition. See the other recent thread
on water damage. Next time you are there, take a close look
for the wooden half-ties separating from the concrete and for
loose or missing screw spikes, bolts or pandrol clips.
I'll ask my track inspector buddy. One thing about the new CIs is the wide experience we bring to TA. Pandrol clips do allow a little play but the plates MUST be secure. CI Peter
B"H
should it be reported? to whom? is it dangerous?
It should be reported to NYC Transit Customer Assistance: 718-330-3322. People there will forward the report to the right office for investigation, and if it needs to be fixed it will be fixed.
David
Dangerous? Not particularly. If left untreated long enough,
it will result in a broken rail. Track inspectors are supposed
to walk every piece of track every few months. When I've seen
them (usually in the midnight hours) and I know of a defect in
their district I mention it to them, usually a budding problem
like spikes starting to work loose. The Track Geometry car also
comes along periodically and it will pick up on a defect of the
severity that you describe. Of course phase II, rectifying the
fault, that's another story.
But should you report it? If it is causing a customer service
problem, such as excessive noise when trains go over the defect,
yeah, call up customer service and approach it from that angle.
If not, and you don't have any background in track, I'd say don't
bother, because unless you can deliver an accurate technical
description of the condition using the right terminology, honestly,
your complaint is likely to be ignored.
B"H
exactly what I figured, which is why I didn't bother to walk down to the tower and alert the folks there.
I have searched the archives, and did not see any threads that match this, so here we go...
There are currently two options to route the 2nd Ave subway south of Houston St.
1 - A new tunnel down Water St., terminating at Whitehall & Wall St. No Brooklyn access.
2 - Connect to the unused portion of the Nassau Line's stations (J/M/Z) with the possiblity of merging with the M/N/R to Brooklyn.
I would like to present a 3rd option that is similar to #2 but expands the usefulness of other lines as well.
Take the Northbound M train from Bay Parkway and connect it to the 2nd Ave line after Canal St, with a connection to the F at 2nd Ave/Houston. The M would then continue up 2nd Ave to 125th St, as outlined in the MTA planning study. Currently the M goes from Brooklyn to Brooklyn, guaranteeing a multiple-seat ride to get uptown. This change would allow riders to make the same downtown stops (except Bowery - one of the least used in the system - and Essex - not needed with a connection to the F at 2nd Ave) and continue up the East Side to connect with most other lines. This option also gets rid of the need to merge the 2nd Ave line with existing M/N/R service (as outlined in #2 above) allowing more 2nd Ave TPH through the Montague Street Tunnel. Otherwise that tunnel would be quite crowded with 4 lines running through it, and service would need to be scaled back.
The C line would be re-routed to the terminal at Middle Village/Metropolitan Ave. The trainsets would be able to make the clearances and fit into the platform lengths on the Eastern Division. The C would make all local stops between Middle Village and Essex (same as existing M service,) then go through the Chrystie St. tunnel to the 6th Ave local tracks, stop at BWay-Lafayette then switch to the 8th Ave line before W4th to its current route uptown. This would allow Middle Village riders to travel uptown without transferring, and still have the ability to go downtown via a step across the platform to the J/Z which would remain unchanged and terminate at Broad St. This also gives J/Z riders an across-the-platform transfer to uptown 8th Ave service.
The V line would then terminate at Euclid Ave (current C terminus.) It would run local along the Fulton Line, then change to 6th Ave local before W4th and continue to 71/Continental via 53rd St. Thus, a reason to take the V downtown.
New cars would be purchased for the 2nd Ave Line, and the surplus M trains would go to the V line to be able to extend the length of the route to Euclid Ave. C trains would have plenty to get to Middle Village.
The 2nd Ave Line could be the brown M, C would remain blue, and V would remain orange. I can't seem to find the website that had a chart of all the unused letters/colors in the rollsigns. Anyone know where they are?
The only potential problem may be all the switching that has to take place below W4th. Can that area handle 2 locals crossing over and not disrupting the F or E?
Let me know what everyone thinks.
JR
Actually, this has been indirectly discussed, but not in so many words.
One question is how to connect from the J/M/Z tracks to the 2nd Ave tracks. Possibly this would be immediately east of Bowery station, turning under Forsyth St and then using SD Roosevelt Park to eventually end up under 2nd Ave. Maybe Bowery station would need to be moved a few yards west.
Related to this is the opportunity to put in a passageway from the north end of the Grand St station to the east end of the Bowery station, now providing a transfer among the J/M/Z, B/D, and 2nd Ave lines in Manhattan.
All that transferring south of W 4th is a concern. I've been wondering if there is a possibility of switching ALL local IND trains, so that C and E both go from 8th Ave to Houston and F and V stay on 6th Ave both above and below W 4th. Since there are flying crossovers for the locals south of W 4th this would mean no merges. The problem I see there is then too many of the trains at Jay St Boro Hall are then headed to 8th Ave and too few to 6th Ave.
A better idea is to directly tun up Chrystie St from Delancy. The Bowery would be closed permanently.
I've been wondering if there is a possibility of switching ALL local IND trains, so that C and E both go from 8th Ave to Houston and F and V stay on 6th Ave both above and below W 4th.
What would the terminals be for the F/V/C/E?
F would terminate at WTC, V at Euclid, C at 2nd Ave (or in the Eastern Division according to the plan bein discussed in this thread), E at Coney Island.
The idea definitely has some issues associated with it.
A few more thoughts:
- The F will have fewer trains since some Quenns Blvd trains going through the 63rd St tunnel will swing downtown onto the 2nd Ave line.
- Therefore it's easier to switch the F and the B than the V and the C. Run the F to West End and the B to the Eastern Division. This can be done now with a existing crossovers north of W 4th or at some expense with a flying junction east of Bway-Lafayette.
- The question remains, will anyone ride this Eastern Division train to midtown? It can only provide a direct no-change route to midtown for a small fraction of Eastern Division riders.
If there was an Eastern Division Eggspress on the Jamaica Ave/B'way/6th Ave. and it was equal to or near the travel time of the "F" from Van Wyck to 34th St I'd use in an alternate fashion with the "F"
But the T.A. would have to :
a) Lengthen the Platforms.
b) Build a By-pass express along Jamaica Ave from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway
c) Install express track along Jamaica Ave for peak direction .
d) Eggspress stops, Jamaica center, Sutphin, Woodhaven eastern Parkway.
You can't make Woodhaven an express stop without demolishing buildings.
Swapping the locations of the platforms and local tracks, and staggering the platforms would allow the limited space to be utilized. Tight, but doable. Somewhat similar to the Lexington/14th St platform layout.
avid
Not possible. The existing side platform depths are far too narrow to be considered as island platforms. It would be narrower than the ones at Wykoff.
The main problem with the Eastern Division is that there is no true express service to Jamaica, and the platforms are too short, otherwise we could run anything out there. Your ideas make sense, but I think most of those F trains would be empty from Jamaica since they almost duplicate it's route through Queens. I guess it would depend on where in Manhattan the rider is going. It would be slow through Brooklyn.
"b) Build a By-pass express along Jamaica Ave from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway
c) Install express track along Jamaica Ave for peak direction ."
This should have been done a long time ago because it would have greatly reduce the crowds using the E line into Jamaica Center.
N Bwy
If you reroute the F to the West End Line, what's going to take its place along the Culver Line? The V? Then you'd have to run the V 24/7 (meaning the G train will have to be banished from the Queens Blvd line completely).
For the F to access the Manhattan Bridge and the West End Line, it will have to run express along 6th Avenue, meaning that the 6th Avenue Express tracks from Rockefeller Center to 34th Street will have to be shared by the B, D and F trains. The B would have to switch to the local tracks to get to Chrystie, which, given how many F trains run, may cause delays.
But actually, if the B were to run through Chrystie and up 6th Avenue, it would offer a couple places to transfer. You would be able to transfer to the 1/2/3 at 14th St (but you'd have to do quite a bit of walking under 14th St to make the transfer) and to the N/Q/R/W at 34th Street. The only problems are the switching and finding a suitable replacement for the F on the Culver Line.
"If you reroute the F to the West End Line, what's going to take its place along the Culver Line? The V? Then you'd have to run the V 24/7 (meaning the G train will have to be banished from the Queens Blvd line completely)."
The V to Culver on weekdays. On weekends the F could go to Culver. Lots of posibilities are available for the West End line. The 2nd Ave Line could go through Nassau St to the West End. Or the B could go there over the Manhattan Bridge. No trains would necessarily need to go between Broadway (Bklyn) and midtown, since you wouldn't need to solve the problem of trying to squeeze too many trains onto Nassau St.
"For the F to access the Manhattan Bridge and the West End Line, it will have to run express along 6th Avenue, meaning that the 6th Avenue Express tracks from Rockefeller Center to 34th Street will have to be shared by the B, D and F trains. The B would have to switch to the local tracks to get to Chrystie, which, given how many F trains run, may cause delays."
No, run the F local to Bway-Lafayette and then ideally build a flying junction to allow it to go to Grand St while the B goes to Delancey St. Take a look at the track maps. It's possible, and not that expensive while you're digging up the whole area of Houston and 2nd Ave anyway.
Also, don't forget, there are only going to be half as many Fs on 6th Ave; the rest will turn south at 63rd St and 2d Ave. So even a surface level crossover east of Bway Lafayette would work. There would be 12 D trains, 10-12 Vs, 8 Fs, and 8 Bs, with the Bs and Fs needing to switch tracks.
But that's assuming the full 2nd Avenue subway gets built. That won't happen for a long time.
>>> No, run the F local to Bway-Lafayette and then ideally build a flying junction to allow it to go to Grand St while the B goes to Delancey St. Take a look at the track maps. It's possible, and not that expensive while you're digging up the whole area of Houston and 2nd Ave anyway.<<<
Would the B still be running express on 6th Avenue? How would it get to Delancey without switching to the local tracks? Or would it switch?
"But that's assuming the full 2nd Avenue subway gets built. That won't happen for a long time."
This whole thread is dependent on a "full" 2nd Ave subway being built, at least from 125th to Delancey. The first piece is 125th to 63rd - this thread is irrelevant for that. The 2nd piece is 63rd to Delancey.
"Would the B still be running express on 6th Avenue? How would it get to Delancey without switching to the local tracks? Or would it switch?"
As I said, build a crossover east of Bway Lafayette. Best as a flying junction, less good as a grade level crossover. The original proposal had a cross-over of Cs and Vs south of W 4th that would be more congesting that my suggested B and "reduced" F crossover.
I could see this as working, fully integrating the Nassau St, Broadway elevated & 2nd Ave. lines. Sending one of the current Broadway elevated routes (J/Z or M) up 2nd Ave clears up the necessary capacity to operate another 2nd Ave route through Chambers & down Nassau St.
Here's my proposal:
J/Z 125th St to Jamaica Center via 2nd Ave & Broadway Bklyn, 24/7
M Metropolitan Ave to Broad St, 6 AM to 9 PM
K 125th St to 9th Ave (middays), Bay Parkway (rush hours) or Broad St. (all other times).
The 125 St. terminal on 2nd Ave. would have to be designed to handle at least 24 TPH to make this work. Accessing the 2nd Ave line from Essex St. could be made by building a ramp down using the 2 unused express trackways between Essex St. & the Bowery (The Bowery would be closed, as it would necessitate the M to run to Broad St 24/7 to keep it open). The new trackways would turn north to merge with tracks coming up from Canal St/Centre (again, the 2 unused express trackways would be utilized by the new 2nd Ave "K" route). The 2nd Ave line will have to go "under" the 6th Ave line @ Houston to do this, so a cross platform transfer to the B/D @ Grand St might not be possible, but a transfer to a platform underneath the present Grand St. station might be doable.
A line from 125th Manhattan to Jamaica Center goes to none of the places that create the crowds a well-used subway line needs.
- It doesn't go through the core of midtown, but only along the fringe. Second Ave is almost entirely residential.
- It doesn't go through the financial district.
- It doesn't intersect with large numbers of lines that do both (like the L does).
- The residential neighborhoods where it originates are not particularly dense.
This is a line that is doomed to have very few riders below 42d St.
It would be much better to run part of the current J/M/Z service into the B or C line so that it goes through the core of midtown. That's technically quite feasible.
Or, send the M to 2nd Avenue from 9th Avenue/Bay Parkway via Nassau St. Some new connections might need to be made, but at least it goes through the financial district. That could alleviate some stress from Lex lines since it's pretty close.
It would be much better to run part of the current J/M/Z service into the B or C line so that it goes through the core of midtown. That's technically quite feasible.
The 6th Ave line is not an option for eastern division trains for several reasons described earlier. The 8th Ave line is not a desirable routing, unless you want to get to Penn Station. The 2nd Ave route would paralell the already overcrowded Lexington Ave IRT, and I think many J riders would use it over the Lex. The area west of 2nd Ave, south of 60th and north of 34 certainly isn't residential exclusively. If people are so bent on making a one seat ride to midtown from the eastern division, the 2nd Ave route makes the most sense.
"The 6th Ave line is not an option for eastern division trains for several reasons described earlier. The 8th Ave line is not a desirable routing, unless you want to get to Penn Station. The 2nd Ave route would paralell the already overcrowded Lexington Ave IRT, and I think many J riders would use it over the Lex. The area west of 2nd Ave, south of 60th and north of 34 certainly isn't residential exclusively. If people are so bent on making a one seat ride to midtown from the eastern division, the 2nd Ave route makes the most sense."
I don't really know if the J/Z option would work well... Especially b/t 60th and 34th Sts. One reason, because the J/Z serves a very different clientele from the people living and working in this area. But just maybe enough passengers heading to upper manhattan/bronx from Brooklyn will justify this routing.
N Bwy
I don't really know if the J/Z option would work well... Especially b/t 60th and 34th Sts. One reason, because the J/Z serves a very different clientele from the people living and working in this area.
More than half of the J/Z riders transfer to lines serving this part of Manhattan anyway. If you're saying that 2nd Ave riders wouldn't want to share their new subway with the minorities of Brooklyn ....
Of course there's demand for going between the Eastern Division and 2nd Ave, just not enough to justify 12+ tph. Almost every line serves either very heavily built up residential areas or large areas of very densely built up office buildings, and most lines do both.
This proposed train serves less dense residential areas and less dense office areas.
The only trains that do this are the G (and look how many riders it has) and the L (which only works because it connects to every single trunk line in Manhattan).
Allright, then the M could run up 2nd Ave, the J/Z to Broad St, and the K remains the same. This provides 8 TPH on the 2nd Ave line from Broadway Bklyn.
As planned now, if it's a two track line, there will be no service south of 63rd going anywhere but either down Water Street to Whitehall or through the Nassau Loop, unless a third track for short runs (a la Whitehall on the BMT) is built. That's because with only two tracks, once you add the Q train coming over from 57th-7th to hook up with the new Second Ave. line, you run out of track capacity for any other line, unless you cut back on the Q service and opt for very minimal service south of Delancey compaired with the money that would be spent to build the thing.
The only way they could shoehorn the M train -- or any other line using the Willie B and Second Avenue -- in there is if it's uptown terminal is 54th-57th Sts, since the primary Second Ave. service south of 63rd St. has to be one that reaches the financial district. If it doesn't, there's no point in the MTA even bothering to build the line in the first place.
Well said. I don't understand the fairly strong sentiment in this thread for a train that goes 2nd Ave to Brooklyn without ever reaching the financial district.
Because there's more to Manhattan that what's below Chambers St. Plenty of Brooklyn riders would desire midtown service along 2nd Ave.
All well and good, but plenty of East Side riders would liker service to the financial district other than the sardine cans on the Lex.
I'm not saying you can't have a serivce to Brooklyn via Second Ave. and the Willie B, just that you can't have one that goes north of 57th St. and Second Ave. under a two-track configuration, because space has to be available north of there for the 63rd St. connection to come over. However, if the MTA did have the option of two lines south of 57th, odds are one would run the length of the island via Water Street and terminate at Whitehall, while the other would run via the Nassau Loop from 57th-2nd possibly to Bay Parkway via West End service, with the M service to south Brooklyn eliminated entirely.
All well and good, but plenty of East Side riders would liker service to the financial district other than the sardine cans on the Lex.
My plan leaves on of the Nassau St. lines as it is now, so downtown riders can easily use the unaltered route. The "K" route in my plan runs the entire length on 2nd Ave to Broad St. and into Bklyn. Everyone wins.
All well and good, but plenty of East Side riders would liker service to the financial district other than the sardine cans on the Lex.
My plan leaves one of the Nassau St. lines as it is now, so downtown riders can easily use the unaltered route. The "K" route in my plan runs the entire length on 2nd Ave to Broad St. and into Bklyn. Everyone wins.
That would even allow for WB riders to have an across the platform switch to the 2nd Ave line, with let's say the second Ave trains running on the "express" tracks of the Nassau line and the J on the "Local" tracks. The M may have to be terminated at Chambers St, with the 2nd Ave coming in also. Fulton and Broad are only two tracks, but with the M ending before it turns to two tracks,it should not be a problem. Could the M remain also? I don't know if 3 routes would work after the Nassau line turns to two tracks.
As I understand the 2nd Av Line was originally intented to extend to the Bronx to take over the original NYW&B alignment. The current plan would terminate at 125 and Lex. A combination of these plans and an extension of the 125 St branch to, say, Broadway would allow the following service pattern:
J/Z : 125/Broadway - 2nd Av - WB - Jamaica
M : Bay Parkway - Montague - WB - Metropolitan
T : Dyre - 2nd Av - South Ferry(?)
Does anyone know how much is left of the NYW&B beyond Dyre?
Does anyone know how much is left of the NYW&B beyond Dyre?
In addition, how far did the line originally go after Dyre?
Your questions are answered right here on this site, in the New York, Westchester & Boston section.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mousee
If you're going to give the WB riders midtown service, sure some would like 2nd Ave. But 5 times as many would like 6th Ave., which would also then provide an easy walk to 7th Ave or 5th/Madison.
So rather than spend for track work to connect the WB to the 2nd Ave line, it would be far better to spend less money to connect the B train to the WB. Most of that track is already there in the form of the connection from the F to the WB; you just need that connection to serve the express as well as the local under Houston St.
If you're going to give the WB riders midtown service, sure some would like 2nd Ave. But 5 times as many would like 6th Ave., which would also then provide an easy walk to 7th Ave or 5th/Madison.
But that's impossible to do today. Neither Queens line can operate 480' cars, so no 6th Ave service can run over the Williamsburgh Bridge.
So rather than spend for track work to connect the WB to the 2nd Ave line, it would be far better to spend less money to connect the B train to the WB. Most of that track is already there in the form of the connection from the F to the WB; you just need that connection to serve the express as well as the local under Houston St.
You want 6th Ave service via the Manhattan Bridge only to consist of the D train? What serves the West End line if the B runs over the Willy Bridge? Again, not too practical.
"You want 6th Ave service via the Manhattan Bridge only to consist of the D train? What serves the West End line if the B runs over the Willy Bridge? Again, not too practical."
To repeat a previous posting, I was suggesting B over the WB weekdays only. B trains can be 480'.
The F and V cover the Culver and West End (via bridge) Lines. Additional West End service is provided via the Montague tunnel as well.
To repeat a previous posting, I was suggesting B over the WB weekdays only. B trains can be 480'
That would be a nice idea actually. The only problem I see is that the B would have to become a 6Ave local because only the local tracks connect to Essex Street.
As I've said twice, with just a little track work (compared to building a 2nd Ave subway), you could connect the 6th Ave express track just east of Bway Lafayette with the Chrystie St crossover to the WB without interfering with the F/V Rutgers traffic.
The F and V cover the Culver and West End (via bridge) Lines. Additional West End service is provided via the Montague tunnel as well.
This short changes Culver riders by precluding the restoration of express service between Jay & Church. I don't think routing the B to the eastern division is worth all this trouble and expense.
We're talking 10-15 years in the future anyway. The main point is that there is a way to rearrange service to get 2nd Ave trains onto the Nassau St line if that's what's needed. By then there might be more 6th Ave trains or other rearrangements in service as well.
I don't think routing the 2nd Ave. line down thru Nassau St is worth the trouble anyway, especially if there will be a cross-platform transfer at Grand St. between the B/D. Nobody will use the 2nd Ave line to get into midtown....too slow.
A well built locals-only line doesn't have to be slow.
Consider the 8th Ave line. I jut did a ride in rush hour from 81st St to Chambers in 16 minutes (8 stops: switched to the A at 59th).
If you don't have sharp curves or excessively crowded stations you can move pretty fast even in a local or near-local like the A below 59th St.
True, but the trains will creep through Montague St. and up Nassau. Lots of curves, junctions and a guaranteed slow trip. Taking the B/D to Grand for the 2nd Ave line will be much quicker.
Agreed. Somehow I was thinking the message referred to using the 2nd Ave line to get from downtown to midtown.
You've piqued my curiosity. Based on the TA's posted schedules (including old ones for the D, 1/9, and 2), here are the approximate local-express differentials:
IRT
7th Avenue (Chambers-96): 8 minutes (12 stops)
Lex (BB-125): 9 (14)
White Plains (149-E180): 3 (7)
Pelham (3Av-E177): 6 (9)
Flushing (QbP-Main): 7 (10)
Brooklyn (Nevins-Utica): 3 (5)
1/9 (137-242 skip-stop): 2 (3-4)
BMT
Broadway (Canal-57): 3 (5)
Broadway-Brooklyn (Marcy-Myrtle): 4 (3)
4th Avenue (Pacific-59): 4 (7)
Brighton (PP-BB): 7 (8)
Astoria (QbP-Ditmars): 2 (4)
Manhattan Bridge (Canal-DeKalb): 6 (5)
J/Z (Myrtle-Sutphin skip-stop): 5 (14)
IND
8th Avenue (Canal-59): 2 (3)
6th Avenue (W4-34): 1 (2)
Queens (QP-71): 6 (10)
Queens (71-UT): 1 (1)
Fulton (Hoyt-Euclid): 4 (9)
CPW (59-145): 3 (8)
Concourse (145-BfB): 4 (6)
Surprising?
Yes. All of them are (except maybe the A between 59th and Canal and the E between Union Tpke and 71 Ave).
Yes, it is suprising, but not by too much. Some express runs don't save that much time over what the local does.
I've privately thought that some express stations I've ridden thru in my life should be demoted to locals during rush hour:
WestSide IRT, 96th 14th
EastSide IRT, 86th St.
B'klyn 4Av, 36th.
Queens IND, 71st.
Fulton IND, Nostrand.
Brighton: Church.
If transfers were better at Canal, I'd also think of demoting the Broadway BMT Herald Sq and Times Sq stations.
"I've privately thought that some express stations I've ridden thru in my life should be demoted to locals during rush hour:
WestSide IRT, 96th 14th
EastSide IRT, 86th St.
B'klyn 4Av, 36th.
Queens IND, 71st.
Fulton IND, Nostrand.
Brighton: Church."
I'm amazed you haven't started a riot with this posting. Maybe everybody's hard at work.
Two of these station at least have extremely heavy demand right now.
- W 96th is full of people who want to switch from the local to the express to save a few minutes getting to midtown.
- At E 86th, both local and express platforms are packed. People will fall off the edge if you don't give them an express platform to wait on too.
W 14th, I admit, could be a local station. There is a fair amount of transferring to the L, but not really heavy volumes. And most of those fols are just coming from midtown and could just as well take a local.
I was being provocative, particularly with 86/Lex and 71st in Queens. :-)
14th/7th Av and Nostrand/Fulton are the most serious candidates for demotion, with 36th/4thAv being third. With 96th/B'way, I concede this would exacerbate congestion at 72nd. And if not 71st, then Union Turnpike.
If they essentially rebuilt Canal St to make transfers very easy, and added a Lex express stop (demoting BB to local), then all the 14th St. stations could be local. And if the B'way BMT local and express tracks could be switched such that the express tracks went all the way downtown, then some more demotions could occur.
The time saved on each rush hour run would probably not be that much tho', but it might permit one or two extra tph on the affected lines, and *that* would justify it. And the politics of it would be intense.
Generally, bypassing a station doesn't increase capacity on the line one bit. Expresses don't have greater capacity than locals. Besides, what good is an extra 2 tph if many passengers now have to wait twice as long for a train that will stop for them?
Are you crazy? Let's think about what happens if an express run is modified to bypass additional stations. The express becomes more attractive to those who don't use those stations. The local becomes more attractive (necessary, in fact) to those who do. Express stations become more crowded, since those needing to transfer from express to local now have fewer stations available. Crowding issues aside, those bound for express stops save a few seconds, those bound for former express stops lose a few minutes, and those bound for local stops also lose some time if they could have taken the express part of the way.
Let's look at your examples, one by one:
WestSide IRT, 96th 14th
If expresses didn't stop at 96, most of the 96 crowd would be transplanted to 72. The narrow platforms are 72 have trouble handling their own crowds as it is -- they certainly couldn't handle the combined crowds. They simply wouldn't fit.
The local stations around there are very busy and the locals are very crowded. Eliminating an express stop would only force more people onto the overcrowded locals. Local service is already insufficient.
14 is a transfer point to the L and F/V. It's the only transfer point on the line to the L and F/V. Why you'd have expresses bypass the transfer is beyond me.
EastSide IRT, 86th St.
Very funny. Do you want the locals to explode?
B'klyn 4Av, 36th.
Last transfer between the M/W and N/R. Again, why?
Queens IND, 71st.
Most of the ridership in Queens comes from the outer reaches of the line. The express tracks are already at capacity. Making the express even more popular is an unwise move.
Fulton IND, Nostrand.
A possibility.
Brighton: Church.
Church lags barely behind Kings Highway, the busiest express station on the line. See the numbers.
But I think you missed my point: An express is only slightly faster than a local. No matter what you do, that won't change. Most of the time spent on a train is in motion, even on the local. Rather than trying to move trains fast, we should try to move people efficiently.
Not surprising in this age of timers. I don't have any proof, but I'm convinced these numbers used to be larger.
My idea neglected any thought of Broadway service north of 63rd. St. on the 2nd Ave line. But if the connection to 63rd. St. is fully functional, an equal number of trains from lower 2nd Ave would be diverted to Queens via 63rd. St.
While it would negate the need for a center track terminal station at 57th St., a routing out to Queens via 63rd and Second Ave. has a problem right now -- no track space east of Queensbridge, unless the MTA builds that super-express route or routes the V down Second Avenue.
Meanwhile, I'm sure one line will have to run the length of Second Ave., so under a two-track system that would leave the line either coming in via the Willie B or the one coming in from DeKalb via either the Nassau Loop or the Manny B (though it's hard to see why the MTA would want to connect up the bridge to the Second Ave. line given all the recent problems) to be the route that would go to Queens.
A four track line would solve all these routing problems (except for where to go after Queensbridge), but given the projected costs for a two-track line, the city will be lucky if only two tracks are running 20 years from now.
"While it would negate the need for a center track terminal station at 57th St., a routing out to Queens via 63rd and Second Ave. has a problem right now -- no track space east of Queensbridge, unless the MTA builds that super-express route or routes the V down Second Avenue."
There is a solution: split the F into 2 sections: half go 6th Ave to Queens Blvd via 63rd St, half go lower 2nd Ave to QB via 63rd St. This also would reduce the current demand for E and V service from QB to E 53rd St.
This is just one possibility; there are many others, such as running the V from QB via 63rd to 2nd Ave, etc.
Splitting the F would cause mass confusion. They would have to call it some other letter. But then F service would be drastically reduced.
"Splitting the F would cause mass confusion. They would have to call it some other letter. But then F service would be drastically reduced."
Of course you'd use another letter.
F service wouldn't necessarily be so drastically reduced. You'd rearrange E, F, V, R, and the new 2nd Ave service in some kind of equitable way.
Maybe instead of 15 F, 15 E, 10 R, 10 V, you'd have 10 F, 12 E, 10 R, 10 V, and 8 2nd Ave.
I don't think you have to split the F. If the proposed 54th-57th St. station on Second Ave. is connected up with the IND Lexington Ave. station at 53rd St., then V train riders would still have that station, though slightly further to the northeast. That would leave Fifth Ave., 23rd-Ely and Queens Plaza that would see service reductions from routing the V through 63rd St. along with the F. And if the V went to the financial district, either via Chatham Square/Water Street or through the Nassau Loop, it would probably take some of the E train passengers who go down to Chambers each day, since the distance between the two isn't that great (especially the Nassau St. routing) and going via Second Ave. would be a much more direct route than going all the way across to Eighth Ave.
"Of course there's demand for going between the Eastern Division and 2nd Ave, just not enough to justify 12+ tph. Almost every line serves either very heavily built up residential areas or large areas of very densely built up office buildings, and most lines do both."
Where did you get 12 tph from? And are you specifically talking about the J/Z and proposed K lines? Your right, it does look like quite a bit of service for 2nd Avenue. But the J and Z really runs like one line so I don't really understand your point.. Please help me, thanks!
N Broadway Line
I was commenting on a specific proposal that called for running all J and Z trains between the Jamaica and upper 2nd Ave (go up about 8 messages on this thread). I believe that's about 12 tph.
" If you're saying that 2nd Ave riders wouldn't want to share their new subway with the minorities of Brooklyn ...."
Stop misreading what I wrote earlier.. besides, the subways is not own by a particular neighborhood, but by the riding public. With that said, to clarify what I was saying, since you missed it, what I was saying, was, this particular routing might not be popular with the majority of passengers currently using the J/Z lines in Brooklyn. Particularly in the midtown area where a mixture of residential and commericial properties exist. However, the uptown routing might justify the J/Z being there.
Again... this has nothing to do with whether individuals want to share a subway car with minorities, since the line will be dead ending at a very person of color neighborhood (125th Street). I just hate when people make a racial issue out of something when there's no need to.
N Broadway Line
J/Z 125th St to Jamaica Center via 2nd Ave & Broadway Bklyn, 24/7
It sounds like there would be a huge amount of transfers at 2nd Ave/Houston to the F. Not many work commuters would go up 2nd Ave from Jamaica.
M Metropolitan Ave to Broad St, 6 AM to 9 PM
Would the M do the shuttle-thing from Metropolitan to Myrtle at other times?
It sounds like there would be a huge amount of transfers at 2nd Ave/Houston to the F. Not many work commuters would go up 2nd Ave from Jamaica.
Then why bother connecting any 2nd Ave line to Nassau St for access to Brooklyn if nobody is going to use it? Might as well use the Water St. route and terminate it at Whitehall St.
2nd Ave is a short walk from Lexington. We all know how crowded this line is.
I agree Chris, but I go futher by saying that the racial demographics are different than the area the "new" propose line will serve. And I don't expect a whole flood of people are going to go to upper manhattan from Brooklyn. It just not going to happen.
The A is the same way. Most people coming from harlem end their trip in the downtown area. And most people coming from downtown end their trip in Brooklyn. Very few people coming from uptown is going to end their trip in Brooklyn.
The J is even more different than the A riding public, because of where the line goes.
N Bwy
No, but plenty of J/Z riders want to go to Grand Central, 53/3rd Ave, etc. The 2nd Ave routing gives these people an alternate route within a very close proximity of the overcrowded 4/5/6 lines they aleready are using.
"No, but plenty of J/Z riders want to go to Grand Central, 53/3rd Ave, etc. The 2nd Ave routing gives these people an alternate route within a very close proximity of the overcrowded 4/5/6 lines they aleready are using."
I see your point in this post.. Lets hope that this plan works.
N Broadway Line
Then why bother connecting any 2nd Ave line to Nassau St for access to Brooklyn if nobody is going to use it?
It's the same as any line connecting to Brooklyn. Alot of the lines running from the Bronx or Uptown, through midtown, to Brooklyn would work the same as the 2Av to Brooklyn. Most morning routes pick up their passengers at the beginning of their run (Bronx/Uptown), loose them along their treck through Manhattan, and end in Brooklyn. Then they pick up their new passengers, head to Manhattan, loose passengers, and end where they started. Vise-versa for the evening.
So, The same would happen with the 2Ave route. That is why it is important to connect to Brooklyn routes.
2nd Av service to/from B'lyn via Broad St would be very popular. But a cross-platform transfer at Grand St. is just as good for most people, and in fact, better, in that routing the 2nd Av via Nassau St would preclude such a transfer at Grand; to state it simply, more people have access to 2nd Ave with a Grand St. transfer than they would with a direct train to Brooklyn.
Not if the train takes the place of the "M" in brooklyn.
Grand St. was designed for full interoperability with 2nd. Av. So if the Water St. line is built, you can have one route that goes to Whitehall, and another that switches over to the Manhattan Bridge tracks to Brooklyn. This would be the third line over the north side (like the Q was until last summer). (You would have needed these two lines anyway, because one would go to 125th, and the other to Queens. And don't forget the Bway. line that will also be extended to 125th via 63rd. St.)
"J/Z 125th St to Jamaica Center via 2nd Ave & Broadway Bklyn, 24/7"
hmmmmmm.. maybe, but how many people will use it? Remember, it does not really offer midtown access.
"K 125th St to 9th Ave (middays), Bay Parkway (rush hours) or Broad St. (all other times)."
Possible...
N Bwy
I like this idea... now M trains don't have to be 8 cars anymore... they can be a full 600' with the ability to use 75-footers.
Isn't the fact that Metro is the M trains terminal make it an "M" train? Anything running from "Bay Pkwy" would not be an "M" train If it runs from Bay Pkwy to 6th Ave (which I don't think the current Chrystie St connection allows physically) it wouldn't be an M it would be some other letter.
No, the fact that NYC Transit calls it the "M" train makes it the "M" train. If NYCT decided that starting Monday, it would be called "YY," that's what it would be called.
David
It doesn't matter where it goes, it can be called whatever the MTA wants. I think it was a clever coincidence that someone decided to name the route to Metropolitan/Middle Village as the M.
Yeah and the Jamaica..... "J"
I like this idea... now M trains don't have to be 8 cars anymore... they can be a full 600' with the ability to use 75-footers.
Is that true, or are the Myrtle Ave stations 450'?
All I know currently is, from looking at all the sites out there:
a) The 2nd Ave connects to the 63rd St Tube....Lex Av on the 63 was designed with the connection in mind, kinda like Mong Kok on the Hong Kong subway system.
b) Something about a connection to the Nassau Street Line...which makes it all that much interesting...IMO a Water Street line to Whitehall wouldn't make much sense, with it deadending at the tip of the island inst. of going to Brooklyn.
I just can't see your plan very well...Maybe it's me (Haven't been to NY since '96, sorry...), but I think a whole new color is probably likely for the new 2nd Ave...And if it could connect to the Willy B as per plan, would a Co-op City to Canarsie train be profitable?
Co-Op City --> 125 St ---> Willy B ---> ENY ---> Canarsie
Or this...
Co-Op City ---> 125 St ---> 6th Ave ---> Grand Street ---> Manhattan Bridge ---> Brighton Line ---> Coney Island.
In that case:
- Q runs on Culver.
- V supplants B on the West End, cutting M back to Chambers/Broad/Myrtle
- F supplants R on the Sea Beach
- D and the -- train runs on Brighton.
Kinda like that...would that all work? Technically, I know it would. But logistically and financially, would it?
I know it may not make too much sense...don't blame me for trying.
Just my 2 cents...
-J!
I think a whole new color is probably likely for the new 2nd Ave...And if it could connect to the Willy B as per plan, would a Co-op City to Canarsie train be profitable?
Unfortunately, it looks like the 2nd Ave line is going to terminate at 125th St during the first phase of the project. Then, if service to the Bronx is warranted, even though the need already exists, then they might extend it in the next phase. When that would be, who knows?
Yes, they could give it another color, but what I am trying to do is extend the usefulness of a few of the lines (J/M/Z & V) while trying to find a fairly cheap alternative to Brooklyn since options exist. Why waste an opportunity that ends at Whitehall St.? It doesn't look like the 2nd Ave line will be highly used if it just goes up and down 2nd Ave. in Manhattan it needs to provide other options.
Yes there is a track connection tor the 63rd St. line, but there are no plans for a walking transfer to 63/Lex from the 2nd Ave trunk line.
Believe it or not, this was a thread before, though it encompassed only existing trackage...
The C train would become underused under that system. Until recently, most C passengers coming from CPW were heading to points south of midtown, While B passengers are going to midtown. After the 1/2/3 re-alignment though, the C train is taking more passengers than before (plus, the Chambers/WTC stop gets less riders...). But, the 1/9 will be back to normal before any 2nd av subway, and C ridership will probably drop back down...
I like the idea of running the Second Avenue into the Nassau Loop. To free up capacity, one could combine the J/Z and the V, and run the J/Z up 6th Avenue. This is possible using the currently unused part of the Chrystie Street connection. BMT Broadway riders heading for Downtown would use the M; those heading uptown would use the J/Z/V.
Connecting the V to the J/Z has been shot down numerous times in the last week. V needs to have 10 cars, J/Z can only handle 8. Maybe C or B instead, but not V.
(Connecting the V to the J/Z has been shot down numerous times in the last week. V needs to have 10 cars, J/Z can only handle 8. Maybe C or B instead, but not V.)
The V has 10 trains per hour at rush hour, the equivalent of 100 60 foot cars. The J/Z has 12 trains per hour at rush hour. Twelve times 8 is 96. Not much difference there. And nothing stops you from running one more J train.
What generates the 8 car limits, ridership or platform length? Do platforms limit the Jamaica line to 480 foot trains?
Platforms.
You can't add more trains to the Queens Blvd local tracks, because you can't turn around more trains at Continental.
You can send them into the Jamaica yards, but that does not make for speedy express trains.
The Queensborough line is totally filled.
A T/O from TA told me PATH is hiring for Conductors and Switchmen. they prefer 2 years RR experience. that is not a requirement. I am buying the Chief. So if i hear anything i will let you guys know. I will apply as soon as i find out the job address. i have a friend who is a PATH engineer. so he tells me i should go for it.
And did they tell you what they pay?
BTW It's resume so don't bet on it being in the Chief
NYC MTA (we're State employees) is administered by NYC DCAS and they post requirements AND salaries. MTA North, LIRR and PATH just post 'send us your requirements' along with your resume. I for one would like to know the salary ranges between the agencies for T/O, C/R, signal maintainer, car inspector, electronics equipment maintainer and radio repairman mechanic. What I'd expect is that WE ALL are doing a little better with OUR employer. CI Peter
T/O's and C/R's do much better with LIRR, didn't we have this discussion?
LIRR is union so the pay is fixed.
No, we didn't at least as far as salaries. I'd like to know if tecchie jobs pay well...at least the TA has given me a really great deal of experience on new tech beyond most new CIs to want to stay where I'm at...and I do. CI Peter
Electricians start at 36K and max at 52K
F it. I started at 49K, make more than most TA 'engineers.' CI Peter
I got mine yesterday, the century logo thing on it has the Twin Towers... Will they ever remove it?
What's a transit member card?
I left out the word museum, sorry.
OK...do I have to join the museum OR just play along with my MTA card when it is re opened??? I truly doubt the twin towers will ever be removed from the logos....it is present on the newest CED ones. CI Peter
I got mine yesterday, the century logo thing on it has the Twin Towers... Will they ever remove it?
My apologies if these are in this site's FAQ...
I plan to do an upcoming page in
www.forgotten-ny.com
about the ancient Honeywell Street Bridge, which is abt to be torn down and rebuilt (as in the 39th St., originally Harold Avenue Bridge).
I need to know when Sunnyside Yards opened; I have a map from the very early 1900s which shows the yards and the two bridges in place.
Also: since the original name of 39th Street is Harold Avenue, does the LIRR Harold have anything to do with that?
And, pressing my luck, is there a list of all LIRR dispatch towers, their names, and derivations of same?
Thx.
According to Seyfried: "The Pennsylvania Railroad came out with its long-awaited announcement of the opening of the Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard together as of November 27th [1910], the day the winter train schedule went into effect." The first trains (they were LIRR trains since the PRR portion of Penn Station had not yet been completed) actually left Penn Station on September 8, 1910.
Kevin, there's a lot more information about Sunnyside Yard in Volume 7 of Seyfried's "the Long Island Rail Road - A Comprehensive History".
I also have an special insert from the September 8, 1910 Brooklyn Eagle devoted to Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard. Send me an email if you want to use Vol. 7 and/or the Eagle. Here's a picture of a portion of that insert - Note that the Honeywell St. Bridge is mentioned in the last column:
Thanks Bob, I could definitely use that entire Eagle article if you have it, as well as a xerox of the Seyfried pages on Sunnyside...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I wouldn't mind reading the rest of that B'lyn Eagle article. It looks as if part of Newtown Creek was filled with the spoil from the excavation. I wonder if Dutch Kills Creek still exists (there's a street in the area with that name).
>>>I wonder if Dutch Kills Creek still exists (there's a street in the area with that name). <<<
Yes there is still both a Dutch Kills and an English Kills.
Now if anybody knows where the Whale Creek Canal is they get the Golden Sombrero.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Brooklyn, ward 17 near Newtown creek, enumeration district boundaries #375 and #376 (tract Q7) ... and shouldn't that be an URBAN sombrero?
KEVIN----I love your site....keep up the excellent work!!!!!!!!!
Also: since the original name of 39th Street is Harold Avenue, does the LIRR Harold have anything to do with that?
Yes, if you look hard enough with an older map in hand, you'll find some others too. (It's a fun exercise!)
And, pressing my luck, is there a list of all LIRR dispatch towers, their names, and derivations of same?
I'm sure that someone will be able to point you to a book or two that has a more complete (and historically thorough) list, but you can get a start at http://www.lirrhistory.com/towers.html.
Mark
I thought 39th Street was Beebe Avenue. I guess it changed to Harold Ave. across the railyard?
Beebe Avenue is now 39th Avenue, not Street. Wake up, Pete.
Beebe Ave was the old name for 39 AVENUE. Understandable mistake considering the street and avenue numbers are close.
see message to myself: Duh :O)
I did.
I also said you made a common mistake.
The LIRR is one of the last bastions of interlocking towers in the United States with 14 operating towers. The open towers are as follows:
HAROLD, Sunnyside, NY, named for Harold Ave, new structure built 1980's.
JAY, Jamacia, west throat
HALL, Jamacia, east throat, reason for name unknown.
QUEENS, Queens Village NY, junction of Belmont Park branch and Hempstead Line.
VALLEY, Valley Stream NY, junction of Far Rock Line and Long Beach Line.
DIVIDE, Hicksville NY, junction of Port Jeff Line, new (1970's+) instalation, name from the shape of the junction.
NASSAU, Mineola NY, junction of Oyster Bay Line, named for Nassau county.
BABYLON, Babylon NY, termius of electric service
BROOK, Brooklyn NY, Flatbush Ave. terminal, underground tower.
DUNTON, Jamacia, engine house and coach yard
PD, Pachogue NY, aka "The Leaning Tower of PD" for obvious reasons, name never converted from old two letter telegraph codes.
LEAD, Island Park NY, controls draw bridge over intercostal waterway on Long Beach Line.
VAN, Brooklyn NY, Flatbush Avenue tunnel approach, junction, Vanderbilt Avenue Yard, two tricks on weekdays only
EAST NEW YORK, East New York NY, open as needed, controls crossover at station.
Please note that the names of interlocking towers and the interlockings they control appear in CAPITOL LETTERS, boldface according to taste. Yesterday I took pictures of many of the towers mentioned and if you would like some scans of them feel free to ask. It'll be a few weeks for them to be devoloped though.
If you are going to concentrate on interlocking towers solely within the city limits the list is as follows. An 'a' denotes active.
JAY(a)
HALL(a)
DUNTON(a)
VAN(a)
BROOK(a)
EAST NEW YORK(a)
HAROLD(a)
F, Sunnyside
R(a), Sunnyside Yard
Q(a), Sunnyside Yard
A, underground tower, Penn Station, west end of platform 5 and 7
C, underground tower, Penn Station, east end of platform 10, LIAR tunnel
JO, underground tower, Penn Station, east end of platform 6, Amtrak tunnel
OAK aka SS3, Oak Point Yard, Bronx, Amtrak Hell Gate Line
MO, Mott Haven, ex-NYC, jct of MNRR Hudson and Harlem Lines.
WOODLAWN, Woodlawn, jct of MNRR Harlem and New Haven Lines
PELLHAM BAY, bridge cabin, possibly active, Amtrak Hell Gate Line
These are the ones I know about. The tower at the throat of the MNRR park ave tunnel was recently demolished so get out and see them quick. former NYC towers might also exist all along the MNRR Hudson line at FH, GLEENWOOD, CP-12
HALL, Jamacia, east throat, reason for name unknown.
The former Union Hall station, and present-day Union Hall street.
Mark
To update the list of towers:
Van no longer exist. Its operations have been moved to Brook and renamed Brook 2. VD yard is controlled remotely by Brook Tower.
God damn. Another tower bittes the dust. I'll tell Jon Roma.
Sorry this isn't more timely, but I just got the info myself.
-Hank
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-15/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-138289.asp
Stephen Dobrow, 58,
Transit Activist, Dies
Stephen Dobrow, a longtime transportation activist
known for campaigning to bring the city unlimited-ride
transit passes, died Sunday. He was 58.
For more than three decades, Dobrow, a professor of electrical
engineering at Fairleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey,
used his encyclopedic knowledge of the city's transportation
system to advocate for better subway and bus service.
Dobrow lived his whole life in Queens and was a founding
member of the New York City Transit Riders Council. For more
than 30 years, he served as president of the Committee for
Better Transit, a volunteer transportation watchdog group.
"He was the dean of the transit riders community," said activist
Gene Russianoff, staff attorney for the Straphangers Campaign.
"In my view, a lot of his advocacy is why things are better. His
work benefited millions of riders."
Dobrow is survived by his mother, Sylvia, and siblings Sidney
and Cynthia.
A funeral will be held at 10 a.m. today at the Garlick Funeral
Home, 114-03 Queens Blvd. (at 76th Road) in Forest Hills.
It sounds like a hell of a loss to all railfans.
Ok... its confirmed, im coming to nyc for a conference for 10 days in mid-feb...
FINALLY AFTER 1 YEAR I CAN RIDE THE NYC SUBWAY... MARTA IS NO OPTION! :)
I need some ideas on things to do... any railfan trips planned? any good ideas for touristy type stuff? I will be staying near times square..
need ideas for mid-day and evening..
THANK YOU :)
Allen
If you're staying near Times Square you have a multitude of options..here are some suggestions....I'm sure other subtalkers will have even better suggestions. First of all buy an unliminted Metrocard ($4 per day or $17 per seven day period) for use on all NYC subways and buses. Here are two suggestions:
(1)Take #1 from Times Square to 242nd St. You will see the original 1904 subway to 145th St, including the neat elevated stretch at 125th. From 157th through 191st is a very deep tunnel. Get off at 168th, look around briefly, and even take the elevator up to the A train level. Back on the #1 go to 242nd - you will see the unusual Dyckman Street Station, literally on one side of a small mountain, and the unusual lift bridge between 215th and 225th.
At 242nd go downstairs (a Burger King and a couple of coffee shops right there if you need refreshments or a restroom). Take Bx9 bus southbound on Broadway marked "West Farms" (New Flyer Artics cover this route). After going up the steep hill on Kingsbridge Road get off at Jerome Ave. Take the #4 downtown back to Manhattan - but you will get a good look at the Bronx before you go back into the tunnel after passing Yankee Stadium at 161st. Stay on the #4 to Atlantic Ave. Brooklyn - get off and have a quick look at the LIRR terminal adjacent, and then get on the Q train back to Manhattan, going over the Manhattan Bridge.
(2) Walk to 33d St and Broadway (Herald Sq). Take PATH train to Newark, via Journal Square - a really neat trip, a railfan's delight with many bridges and high speed outdoor running after Journal Square. Get off at Newark Penn Station and do a round trip on the NJ Transit Newark City Subway. Return to Manhattan on PATH or take NJ Transit back to Penn Station NY. Your Metrocard will not work on this trip, though.
I'll try to add some addtional iteneraries as I think of them.
Andys suggestion of the Broadway (#1) and Path (Newark City Subway/HBLR) trips are good ones, I'll add:
- #7 Flushing line, catch a Red Bird Express (AM in bound, PM out bound).
- G/F inbound over the Gonanus Cannal is a great photo op
- Bright Express in a Slant 40 is a treat, either before or after a light lunch at Coney Island
- L outbound, you'll enjoy the ride under the East River. I would suggest you get off at Broadway Junction to take another line (J/Z to Jamaica, A back to Manhattan)
- Take the trains to Wall Street, Grenich Village, China Town, Times Sq, South Ferry (the ferry to SI is free & a nice ride if you have the time to kill), Radio City Music Hall, St. Patrick's Church, Rockefeller Center, South Street Seaport, Fulton Fish Market, Ground Zero ...
On the Boradway line if you stop at 116th you can visit: Columbia University, Grant's Tomb, North Church, & at 110th (112th & Broadway) is Tom's Resturant (from the Signfield show), they have a minimun now so you need to buy more then just a cup of coffee to sit down, but the food is good & prices are not too bad. St. John the unfinished is just East of the place.
Well, that ought to keep you busy ! Enjoy ... maybe Robert (T/O) will send you a "Paint the Town Red, White & Blue" Metrocard to use ?
Mr rt__:^)
Isn't Grant's Tomb further north, say, around 191 St?
Grant's tomb is around 122nd Street and Riverside Drive.
Correct, just across the street from North Church.
The West Side rail line to Albany goes under it (almost).
Mr rt__:^)
Have any idea who's buried there?....;-D
When you arrive, go to the Times Square Visitors Center on 7th Ave between 45th and 46th Streets - lots of brochures, discount coupons, etc to look through. Don't forget to pick yourself up some maps (subway and bus).
--Mark
Thanks everyone... i have lived in nyc all my life (moved to atlanta 4 yrs ago..) i just think this time i would like to do some touristy stuff and ride the areas of the subway i havent in the past
any railfan trips mid-feb??? :)
thanks
allen
There may be one Monday Jan 21st ... February, President's Day, Monday the 18th is a posibility.
The idea has only just now come off the end of my finger tips ...
anybody out there interested ... what lines should we do ?
Mr rt__:^)
I'd consider some circle trips. Take the Q over the bridge to Coney Island and come back on the W to 34th Street. Then take the F back to Coney Island. The Q, F, and W have elevated portions in Brooklyn. You can throw in the N but it terminates one stop short of Coney Island.
You should consider riding some of the city's buses. I suggest the M10 and one of the following (M1, M2, M3, M4, M5) along Central Park.
The M5 ride is scenic on Riverside Drive.
Let me know if you want more bus ideas.
Michael
Due to a sudden cancelation by American Pig, I would like to anounce a LIAR field trip tomorrow. The trip will start with my arrival on the 10:22 NJT train into Penn Station and will leave for Babylon. The current plan to to double back to Jamacia, then out to Ronkonkoma, back to Jamacia and finally finishing at Roundbush Terminal. If anyone is interested be under the Amtrak departure board at Pig Station at 10:22, displaying the sceret subtalk signal.
I won't be able to make it, but for curiousity's sake, what's the secret subtalk signal? Is there some sort of subtalk whistle or handshake I should learn for future reference?
Its a black S written on the back of the hand w/ magic marker.
Does it have to be magic marker?
I suppose you COULD scratch. :)
Does it really have to be in cursive? Cause I'm only supposed to carve printed letters into my skin--doctor's orders.
Any writing format it fine.
I just love your 24 hour notice of field trips.
Pigs cancled on short notice, what could I do?
What's "the sceret subtalk signal" [sic]. Does it involve setting light to one's own farts?
Why do you insist on calling it the LIAR. Its really not that bad. If this was 30 years ago when the LIRR was really bad (especially the ghost train-the 7:55 out of Babylon which was cancelled every day on the radio traffic reports) I could see it but I don't see anything really wrong with the railroad now. I stopped riding it for a while as a protest when they stopped the smoking cars but then I quit smoking so the subject became moot. The trains are pretty much on time now. The new tri-level equipment is great and the M7, new Jamaica Station Airtrain connection, and future Grand Central connections have to even make the LIAR LIRR better.
I must say though, I might change my opinion when I retire from the NYPD next year, lose my train pass, and actually have pay for my rides!!!
I must say though, I might change my opinion when I retire from the NYPD next year, lose my train pass, and actually have pay for my rides!!!
The fares are not that bad. Once the m7s arrive the ride will be ever better.
BTW: Why are you going to retire so early? If you want a part-time job in law enforcement, local colleges in your area might be hiring
security personal. Don't know about the pay but it might interfere with you receiving your pention since its also a state job.
Its part of an inside joke that I don't want to die.
What do you want, Jeff - he's from New Joisey!
What do I expect, you're from New Yauwk. Possibly also from Lon Guyland.
BTW, I heard some wonderful/colorful accents on my trip.
I come up with a new controversial acronym, and Jersey Mike gets the flack.
What about when I posted that link to porn.com in my going to vacation message?
would anyone have the current rolling stock assignments for each line. I would like to know. Thanks.
When politicos finally acknowledge that the system is a mover of working people to our great city is when you will see the major changes in lines. The system isn't a profit maker but a mover of commerce that enables business to work here. The biggest fans should not be us SubTalkers but big business that benefits the most from the 'almost rapid transit' of employees. CI Peter
Car assignments at The Joe Korner.
Even when a nickname is critical, there is a kind of affecttion to them, as in Hippo=R68. All the BMT "name" trains had unofficial titles: Green Hornet, Zephyr. I think even "Bluebird" was unofficial. (Official: Compartment Cars).
How about the R143. I was looking at a picture on the Joe Korner, and it reminded me of a feller who was at my garbage cans--a Raccoon! Somehow R142s don't strike me that way at all.
If not, how about "Lone Ranger." OK, these are pretty lame. Anybody got anything better? Something that would stick?
"Racoon" sounds good.
I'm kind of partial to the "raccoon" image myself. They really do look like they're wearing a mask.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course, the R142s have "masks" also, but they don't have the right "chubby cheeks." The R143s do.
Raccoons and Pandas.
avid
I vote coon. the silvery/gray stainless steel is similar enough to their fur.
My mother cam up with a perfect name for the R142/R143 cars: robot cars, since they seem to do everything automatically.
I like "Darth Vader."
That name's already in use. It refers to Grumman-Flxible Corp's bus from the early 1980's. That bus is still in use on certain NJ Transit routes; NYC discarded them some time ago.
The reason I think "Darth Vader" is a good nickname for the R-143 is not just because the black bonnet cover is shaped like his helmet, but also because the cars are much more automated than their predecessors, with more parts of the car "robotic," just like he was!
Darth Vader owns the phone company ... James Earl Jones *is* the voice of Verizon ... tell ya what though - I'll vote for that if you vote for the 142's being dubbed "Hindenbergs" ... :)
No doubt that some of the 142 haters are going to insist calling them "Titanics" because of their (still, but brief) shortcomings.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Heh. I'm rather ambivalent actually ... I didn't think much of the redbirds when they replaced the LoV's ... so I do understand some of the emotional attachments ... but the 142's *do* seem to be a bit lemonish ... sorta like FORDs ... then again, I remember when the 44's and 46's came on the railroad and it was pretty much the same story 30 years ago. They did eventually get them working after multiple GOH's. I'm sure the 142's will work out as well too - only a question of WHEN.
Is dat yer final answer?? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
How about Edsels?
Nah ... you're talking to someone who remembers the 44/46 debacles when THEY arrived ... it took a few years, but they eventually began working after much truckectomy and other rewirings. All the sophisticated nonsense got cut out and they started running. :)
>>>... you're talking to someone who remembers the 44/46 debacles when THEY arrived ...<<
Yeah I remember those times too (but admittedly only as a pax). It was awful!
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-46s had the bad Rockwell trucks, didn't they? Or did the R-44s also suffer from the same malady?
The R-44s had NYCT standard General Steel Industries (GSI) trucks.
David
I was thinking it was the 46's ... the 44's had problems of their own but I think it was the 46's with the bum trux ... the point being though that a LOT of carsets arrived and caused headaches, but eventually they were made to function ... just a matter of time and car shortages until they became "spongeworthy" ...
The R44 was an all around DOG, to coin the phrease David L. Gunn used.
The R46 was not as bad, the R46's problems stemmed mostly from those Rockwell trucks that began cracking soon after they were placed in service.
It's been said, and I can recall, that the problem with the R46's trucks were so bad, that some 100 or more R16's were taken out of storage and put back into service to fill in for the 46's that had to be taken out. The TA was wise to pursue a lawsuit against Rockwell and Pullman Standard.
Don't blame me. I worked the R1/9's and LOVED it. Heh. But EVENTUALLY, they got them working. The 142's seem to be following a similar path. They'll get them working soon ... at least the 143's seem to have done well. I personally inspected them and was pleased for what little THAT'S worth. :)
No blame at all. Lucky you had the chance to operate some fine rolling stock.
I don't think the 142's are nearly as bad as the 44s/46s, and the 143's are akin to the 62's, pretty much smooth sailing (or is my memory failing me in thinking in the mid 80's the 62's came on board with few, if any problems??)
Sure. Why not? The Hindenbergs. But I've already dubbed the Bombardier 142s "the refrigerators," since many are without decor, and the brightly lit, white plastic interior makes me think I'm riding in a Frostmaster! ;O)
Feh ... we'll just transfer that "refrigerator" monicker to the 142A's then ... they don't explode. But yeah, you've got a point - the Hindenberg *was* tastefully appointed with appurtanances. "Decor" does lack a bit in the 142's ... then again, you don't get rust stains on your clothes either. :)
Then there are the marimba-like door chimes. At least they're in tune.
The one thing that FLOORED me was bingbongs on the redbirds. Sacrilege! But then again, I'm your basic motorman type individual - I don't care about the geese cage, sounds, lights. I just care about whether it goes and whether it can be STOPPED. If it stops, all's right with the world even if it's a flatcar with a stand up front. :)
>>>The one thing that FLOORED me was bingbongs on the redbirds. <<<
HUH?
Peace,
ANDEE
*with a deep breathy voice* The Force is with these cars already. :-D
May the Force be with YOU.
Stuart, RLine86Man
well...... like a month back when they entered service i nicknamed them "the pirate" because of a missing cab window unlike the irt cars. whatever you guys wish to call it
How About "Popeye"?
"I'm Popeye the subway car (ding-dong)."
Today, I spoke to a supervisor at the movement desk about the foul up on the 2:42 p.m. train from Ronkonkoma to Penn on December 22. The inbound train from Penn was short turned to protect the 2:42 schedule. The inbound train was put on platform A while the passengers were on platform C. Passengers had to cross over to platform A to catch the train, pushing against the crowds getting off the inbound train.
A bad situation (unavailability of original equipment) was made worse by bringing the inbound train onto platform A instead of C. The supervisor investigated and found that the crew of the disabled train reported at 2:42, the scheduled departure time, that the train was in the yard and couldn't make the trip. If the dispatcher knew in advance that the equipment was disabled, (s)he would have brought the train on the main track (platform C).
The stop at Hillside couldn't be avoided even though the train was late because it's a scheduled stop.
Previous writers stated that the Flatbush connection wasn't lost at Jamaica even though it looks like it was in the public timetable.
The supervisor told me that when deciding to hold a connection, they look to see when the next connection is and make a decision whether to hold a train. In this case, it wasn't necessary.
The supervisor said the company is working on making better announcements to customers.
According to some posters, this was a waste of my time. I don't think so. It certainly beats just venting on this board. At least something might be done about the situation. He gave me his direct dial number and told me to skip public affairs and directly call him the next time I had a problem.
Michael
Undeterred in Washington, DC
P.S. The M-7s will arrive later this winter. There is no scheduled revenue service date.
Talk about a molehill becoming a mountain...I hope this is the last we hear about this mini-problem, and I hope that this is the worst problem any of us encounters in the year 2002.
Unfortunately, its a safe bet lirr riders will encounter more than the occasional headache consider the aging/new lemon combo of equipment in service.
Train 2021 was 29 minutes late getting to Penn Station this AM. It was stuck in the Eat River Tunnel for 26 minutes. The conductor could not get any information as to what was going on. Can you please call your friend at the movement bureau and find out what happened and ask that it not happen again.
Thanks
Steve
I've got a better idea. How about I give you his name and number and you call.
Michael
Defiant in Washington, DC
When the bilevels were introduced, most AM/PM runs on the Montauk tracks were done away with. But I believe there are still 1 or 2 runs daily. What are the departure times?
Just in case I happen to be in Jamaica or LIC on a weekday morning or afternoon...
Not like before with the ancient cars and stops at the non-stations, but I can use my imagination. (I did make the run before the 'stations' were closed, using my monthly, of course instead of paying the $4.50.)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Most of the trains no longer listed to LIC didn't go via Old Montauk. They went via Hunterpoint and Main Line.
I can't say for sure which trains now use old Montauk, but if no one else can tell you sure, a good way to to look at departure and arrival times of Hunterspoint and LIC trains at Jamaica.
I see that there are the following departures from LIC to Jamaica
Lv 454 Arr 516 (pm)
Lv 530 Arr 604 (pm)
There is an arrival at Jamaica at 604 from Hunterspoint, so that would be the 454 LIC departure via the Main Line. There is no 516 arrival at Jamaica form Hunterspoint, so the 454pm is Montauk Branch train.
Going To LIC in the morning, there are 709, 811 and 819 am depatures from Jamaica to LIC. The 709 and 819 make Hunterspoint, but the 811 does not. Therefore the 811 is your Montauk Branch train.
Elementary, my dear Watson
I have gone on the 4:54 just for the Montauk experience, and yup, it went!
Is there pretty much a guarantee that trains between LIC and Jamaica that don't stop at Hunterspoint run on the Montauk branch?
Do any Montauk trains run to Jamaica in the morning or to LIC in the afternoon?
Do any Montauk trains run during off-peak hours?
(Yes, I know, I can find answers to the second and third questions myself -- but as I'm already posting the first question, I might as well toss in the others in case you happen to know offhand.)
Yes, No and No. (Both no's reflect scheduled in-passenger service -- there could be some equipment moves that aren't shown in the schedule).
CG
Not like before with the ancient cars and stops at the non-stations, but I can use my imagination. (I did make the run before the 'stations' were closed, using my monthly, of course instead of paying the $4.50.)
The $4.50 fare is one of the reasons those intermediate stations never cought on. (Not to mention that most were total disasters like Fresh Pond.) I did spend the $4.50 a few times from Fresh Pond to Jamaica a few times just because it was convenient to what I was doing. Another problem with that line was that you had to arrange your schedule around the train because it ran so infrequently. The MTA did everything they could to make it totally inconvienient so they could eventually justify ending the local service. Anyone who remembers what Fresh Pond station looked like would also know any woman would be scared to death to wait for a train alone at that so called station. It's a shame it's gone and was never expanded because service on that line does serve a lot of areas not served by rail service.
Hello everyone, I was wondering, who here is a Philly railfan or lives in Philly? Just wondering, I live here in Philly and I dont think I see to many Philadelphians post in here.
John
Well, Jersey Mike apparently is down this way, in South Jersey (correct me if I'm wrong), and I moved from Bayside to Philly recently.
Shouldn't you change your handle to RonInPhilly?
My in-laws still live in Bayside, and I still have the keys.
Besides, I'm lazy. :0)
I went to College at Villanova and now live in Wilmington...close enough???
I live right accross the river in Haddonfield, NJ. MP 6.5 on the PRSL Main Line.
I live right in Center City Philadelphia. I use the Broad Street subway, usually the express or spur to get to school every day, and frequently ride other services, especially the el.
I live in South Jersey, a mile-and-a-half from the Lindenwold PATCO/NJT station.
I railfan in Philly from time to time, as evidenced by my photographs from recent railfan trips on Oct 3, Oct 19, Dec 20, and Dec 28, the latter with Isaac Shomer and Jersey Mike, who both chimed in earlier in the thread.
I have also railfanned Philly and environs less recently.
I obviously live in Philly. If anyone every wants to meet up to do railfanning. im always up for it. Email me and let me know. I would like to meet new railfans.
John
NwsRptr is also a Philly Railfan, who works the transit news beat when there's no breaking news, and lives in Center City...using the Subway Surface lines all the time
I live in Exton, which is 30 miles west of Philly. I would love to do some railfanning, but a recent medical situation with my wife has me
staying close to home. Perhaps , in 6 -9 months things will get better, if all goes well. Keep in touch with all the Philly guys by posting on this board.
Chuck Greene
Hello John
I'm from Philadelphia, too. I use the Market-Frankford line every day, and I'll soon be moving to West Philly where I'll be using the subway-surface trolleys on a regular basis. I also like railfanning on the Broad Street subway and the Route 100 trolley, and PATCO when possible.
There are a lot more Philadelphia people on this board than I had thought. I realized this about two months ago when I posted a message similar to yours, titled something like "SEPTA riders please raise your hands." If you can find that thread in the archives you'll see it got a huge response revealing many SEPTA surfers around here.
Mark
Hello Mark, nice to meet you. Where in Philly you live at now? I live in Frankford and work in Suburban Station. I ride the EL 2 X a day. wooohooo
I'm close to Oxford Circle. I connect to and from the MFL by bus.
Mark
Sounds like a Field Trip in the making. I see a "core group", that's all you need to start planning something.
Keep us posted up here in NYC, when the weather gets a little warmer a group of us would love to join you some Sat or Sun !
Mr rt__:^)
I live in NYC, but I grew up about 2 hours west of Philadelphia. I have railfanned in Philly occasionally, once with chuchubob (just missing Isaac Shomer on the BSS!). We did the R6 Norristown regional rail to route 100, half of the the MFL, PATCO, and the BSS one day. I planned to return to do the Media/Sharon Hill LR lines, Subway Surface lines, and more regional rail, but that hasn't happened yet. I've also ridden SEPTA's Peter Witt around West Philly with the Rockhill Trolley Museum. I've used Amtrak through Philly countless times, but I'm certainly not as schooled on the Pennsy Main Line as Jersey Mike. I have many pix, but I'm reconstructing my website at the moment. I'm up for a fantrip again soon too.
I live in Delaware County, PA., just a couple of miles from the Marcus Hook station on the R2 Regional Rail line. If any of you Philly railfans are looking for a railfan buddy or partner, feel free to drop me a line. I'm always looking for someone to accompany me when I railfan.
I'm from Philadelphia (West Mt.Airy)and i frequently use the Broad St Subway & the EL and Subway-Surface Trolley Lines occassionally.
I'm from the otherside of the 23...grew up in East Mt. Airy and still use the R7 Mt. Airy stop to go visit the parents. Living and working in Center City means I don't use SEPTA on a regular basis, other than the BSL to sporting events. In fact, in the last two months, I've ridden NYC's subways and DC's Metro more than local lines.
I used to live in Philly from about 1980 to 1991. I lived in Manayunk for a while, commuting to my station in center city on the R6 and the El. For a couple years i also lived up in Frankford, and took the El to the station i was working at the time, which was right under the el in northern kensington. Gotta love that El!!
There are more than you think (as you've already seen). I think I've established myself as a Phila resident and railfan/transit fan/user. Unfortunately I'm not close enough to ride the rails every day (I don't mind riding the bus but SEPTA seems to be pretty talented when it comes to screwing up a line) so I travel from the hills of Roxborough and Center City via bus route 27 every day. Every so often I find myself on the El, subway-surface, and/or R6 train in my travels also.
I grew up in South Phila, close enough to be able to choose between 2 trackless routes and 1 trolley route (in addition to a bus route) for my transit needs. I took the old Brill tracklesses to high school and I think I rode each and every one of those assigned to Southern Depot during that time. I was even lucky enough to ride the only Marmon (324) ever assigned to Southern, for a very short time, when it got out on the 79 one day.
Hey guys wassup, im BACCCCCK
anyway, my questions
1. Which Redbirds have been scrapped and how many?
2. Which redbirds are still on the system/what lines and are running normal?
3. When will they be all gone for good?
4. Has the R-142 been accepted my the public, do they like them, do they miss the redbirds?
Chris
1. Not sure on How many scrapped but mostly the R26/28'S from the No.5 Line and R29's + R36's off the No.6 Line where mainly scrapped.
2. The R 33 Main lines are still going strong running on the No.4,5 Lines. Also the R36's are on the No.7 Line as well. There are very few R 26/28/29's still running on the No.5 as also.
3. Thats unknown but I say in 2 years.
4. The public likes the R142'S. Most of the crews that work with them love them as well. At Pelham some don't even want a R62A know that the R142A's have taken the line over.
The latest counts say that there are only 16 Pelham R-29s left at Westchester Yard. Not sure about other lines, but the 6 has nearly lost all of it's Redbirds.
-Stef
I was told 14, and Concourse sent 30 cars over for reef prep.
Also, the 8113 is going down Broadway, again. It probably got sent back to Yonkers the last time I reported its transportation. Also three R143 shells under tarps were proceeding northbound towards the plant around the same time, 1100PM. I was told by a source at Pelham that the R29s have been officially retired from the 6 as of this week. Unless there is an emergency, no more deadbirds on the Lex Locals.
So that means the 6 can now officially say Bye Bye (Red)Birdies.:-)
I was told that date was back in December 25, with spares held over not used through the new year. Most of the cars being loaded yesterday were Ex-Pelham cars.
Take my fives... p l e a s e !
Yes yes yes yes yes yes no more!!!!!!!!!!! My pick comes up before 11AM and to stay where I'm at I may have to transfer over to 180th BUT the experience on new tech and being on the #5 would make me the 'King of the Hill' because the crews have been working hard to keep the last of the Redbirds running and three days of R142 class doesn't amount to a hill of rusty beans. Wait till the #5 RCIs have a few door indication problems....the #2s haven't the foggiest idea YET!!!! Hoping, praying and still OnTheJuice. CI Peter
I waited at Grand Central for over an hour during Thursday's afternoon rush hour, hoping for a "last chance" ride on a Redbird Pelham express, or even the local. No such luck -- nothing but R-62A's and R-142's. I settled for a Redbird 4 up to 149-GC, with an unscheduled and unannounced stop at 138 (does that happen often?).
If anybody spots a Redbird train on the 6, please let us (or me) know.
Before the final train of Redbirds is retired, the TA should polish it up and send it out for a week or two of touring, one or two days on each line.
Polish up a Redbird and loose the 'Bronx Class?' The only unscrattitied windows are the ones we replaced the broken glass in. Nothing like the smell of cooking composite brake shoes wafting in through carbody holes. CI Peter
I know I work on the No.6 Line on Sundays and they don't run the Redbird. Yes its down to only 1 10 car trainset and like Engine Brake said it may be retired by the end of the week.
I can't say much for the No.2 Line but the No.5 is mostly an R33 fleet. Also the No.4 runs a lot of Redbirds. I get at least 2 out of 6 when I work the No.4 Line.
Yipe! Two out of six of those nasties? Ummm ... need a rabbit's foot and oh, maybe a BROOM? My sympathies, guy ... for those who don't know, when you're doing the "bing bong thing" on redbirds, you have to work twice as hard, and remember to pull your head in the window before you smack the wall ... on other trainsets, you don't have to be as paranoid ... rabbit's foot and broom for the rust that you hope holds until the other end. Dave impresses me for dealing with it, and having not really noticed until I pointed out a few things by taking one of his trains apart (literally) while he was on it. Heh.
If you think that was bad you should have seen me this Monday. I had a Redbird on the No.4 Line that was just a piece of juck. Yes It was out of Utica. Every time the train made a stop or took power it was Bang Bang Bang. Also the storm door in my postition was jamming on me. Somethimes it didn't close and sometimes it was hard to get open. At Utica you get the junk you follower brings in and before the Redbird came in the C/R behind me said I was in for a suprise. I did deal with it and keeped the train in service to Woodlawn and made it on time.
Its something how weak that train was you almost could have collected the Storm door and hanger from the train. I know you collected some of the red that rusted off in your hands. Hehe
Heh ... JUST so you understand my twisted senses as to the CRAP you're working, at least the R1/9's were OPENING DAY EQUIPMENT. The redbirds were HOSERS ... they replaced the LoV's which sadly, had their OWN redbirditis ... HOWEVER, in the case of the R1/9's and LoV's getting replaced, they were in NOWHERE NEAR as bad a condition as they redturds are now. The R1/9's and everything ELSE that was ever scrapped met their maker FAR BETTER in condition than the junkbirds. I simply could NOT believe that a "cash-fattened" TA could be running such trash given the deplorable and DEADLY UNSAFE condition those cars were in. It simply BLEW my mind ... and I don't shock easily, I live upstate with the cows. We KNOW what "fresh country scent" really is. :)
The 'boids were ... well ... OK ... but not quite "original issue" like the R1/9's that were there on opening day. THEY demanded a bit of respect given they was old gals ... but as BAD as what I ran day in and day out as well as routinely rode on honking for all I could squawk, never saw ANYTHING on the railroad as phucked up as those 'boids. DEFINTELY carry an umbrella, shovel and brrom with ya. Worry beads sold separately ... void where prohibited by GO ...
I hardly ever ride the subway, The irt even less often. I must be lucky because the few redbirds I have been on were in very good shape. I am sure that some are in very poor shape, But I am sure that therec are enough in good shape to last a few more years.
You should have seen Wayne and me during our excursions together. We'd do a running commentary on every train of Redbirds we'd see. For each car, too: looks OK, rust under the windows, hole in the side, perforation here, fuhgetaboutit, etc. Then I took the liberty of calling the car washer in Corona Yard a birdbath.
Feh ... you KNOW it's cream of redbird soup when you can reach down, touch the anticlimber steel and have a nice big chunk break RIGHT off in your hand. Apparently the worst ones are on the 4 line, kept at the IRT yard next door to Train Dude's place ... some rust around the windows is acceptable, even expected. Complete metal failure on the anticlimbers however is NOT acceptable.
Agreed. Those anticlimbers are indispensible.
They ARE handy to have ... when the R1/9's went byebye, there were a few of those that had similar decay but they NEVER went out in revenue service. Now bad rivets on step plates that had rotted out, that was different. 12-9'ing an EMPLOYEE is OK, dumping geese isn't. :)
At least you didn't fall down between cars when it happened to you. One slip and you would have been a goner.
The remaining R26s, R28s and R29s look to be in pretty bad shape from what I've seen. Most of the R33s that number in the 8800s and 9200s also look bad. Scrapping will be done according to the shape the Redbirds are in (that is the cars in the best shape will be the last ones to go). I think the Mainline R33s, which were last to be GOH'ed (in 1990-91) will likely be the last non-stainless steel cars in subway service.
Chamces are the R-33s will make up most of the mothballed Redbirds, if they're still going to mothball any.
They'd better. The Redbirds on the 2 (which now make up much of the 5 fleet) are doing just fine. We West Siders take care of our trains.
I thought a lot of those R-33s still looked pretty good last fall.
I will be keeping my hours and days off...through a transfer to the 180th Street crew at 239th. Some cars are easy work, others are nightmares. Parts are starting to go in short supply so enjoy the ride while you can. The TA is making a concerted effort to push Bombardier to MAKE TRAINS GO. Cosmetics are out...passenger safety and proper operation remain the rule. Word is one to three months. CI Peter
The 2 still have its share of Redbirds, about 4-6 10 car sets still remain in revenue service on the "deuce". I always get one for at least a half trip.
That will change. Apparently, RTO will start training Crews on the 5 to operate R-142s shortly.
Redbirds on the Deuce will be a thing of the past.
-Stef
Yes they better start training those crews. I'm up at Dyre 2 days a week and not too many are quilfied and really don't want to be. My T/O isn't even quilfied and he talks about the R 142 like its a bad thing. Thats right unlike the No.6 Line the No.5 crews love there Rustbirds.
Well you have to try it before you can make a judgement. They really don't have a choice, otherwise they better get over to the B Div.
I've always wandered what's better? Braking and power in one, or separate controls?
-Stef
I believe there was a R142 in service on the 5 Monday evening (listening to radio transmissions).
Lined up in my yard today. Funeral procession??? CI Peter
Shall I cue up the Funeral March from the Eroica Symphony?
I do my best in boid carbody because I know a T/O has to sit in the midst of my work all day and the Mess is Supreme! Bye bye boids. Hello to new tech new headaches that they never taught you in school. CI Peter
Which Yard do you work as E 180 or E 239?
The only thing I don't like about the R142's is the enable button. There where many time my T/O's took the button away from me before even closing the front section.
239. 180 is there too. Mebbe a switch to their crew will keep me with my friends. The enable button baffles us all. Isn't it pretty? CI Peter
There's a rewire opportunity for some enterprising tweaker ... connect it up to the OPEN side of the switch only so the C/R can still close up when the T/O decides to play "button button, who got da button?" ...
Problem is that the button is 'logic' and not DC control. The R142 might have been a little better but management told me that old time TA engineers could not understand something like directly driven door motors....'every TA car has door relays.' So, every R142 has banks of door relays that interface the motor drivers. I think about the 'resistance tests' of the 180th crew on the Redbirds....I'm sure someone will come up with door relay tests. There is no 'S' wire I know of nor C/R indication measurement of worth. CI Peter
Xacto knife, circuit path cuts, slobber bridges ... give me have schematic, we make work chop chop. Now you see why I don't work for the TA anymore. I'm glad to be working for the missus writing software. If things don't work the way the customer wants, me cut wires, me bridge joints. Make it work. Now try THAT in a bureaucracy. :)
Bedtime my friend!!! My partners have been exposed to Alstom DLs from the propulsion system...I think the car desk knows I don't need the edumecation after WabTek sent their engineer looking for me while on Redbird inspection. All of this takes time...me n EngineBrake have first hand experience with the mess...my time beyond 'spray n wipe' will come soon. CI Peter
Don't forget the ball peen hammer.:-)
How does a T/O take away the buttons?
I don't think a T/O can take away the buttons. Left and right door enablers are snap action locking so the T/O does not have to lean on one like the T handle. Since the system is essentially 'logic controlled,' the buttons cannot be left in a state of 'left and right door enabling' all the time. The software forces the attention of the T/O to be cooperative with the C/R. An electronic toggle package is in the works for all cars in revenue service. Be prepared! CI Peter
Simple the T/O presses the Enable button to give the C/R Control of the doors. When we close the doors the T/O is supose to wait until they have Indication before depressing the button to take control of the doors away. However some take it away the minute they hear Bing bong. Unlike the other cars on a R142 anytime I press a door closeing button You can hear bing bong train line so you hear it twice. Its weird because in the front you hear the bing bong but the doors are not closing because I just pressed the command for the rear section.
It scares me a bit when the controls are taken before closing down the whole train.
I really do not feel like I'm in charge on a R142. The T/O has the control of everything.
There's some TA folks here who doubt that's the case ... that the enablers only control the "open" bit and don't interfere with the "close" buttons ... I can see them being wired up to prevent an unsafe offside opening up, but it sure is strange that an enabler would interfere with a closedown ... it'd be too late if it was offside which is obstensibly the purpose for it to begin with ...
Oh, and HOWDY, bro! Didja get your happy pick yet?
The R44s have latching relays tied into the conductors MDC controlled by the enablers. Once the C/R goes to on, my buttons complete, and the circuit is ALL his. Since my buttons are momentaries, not constant on/off, the circuits automatically de-energized when the MDC is put back to run. I don't have to agree to run the train again.
Heh. Sounds like the whining years ago as the bingbongs were coming in fast and furious on the D train ... nobody wanted to take out the R1/9's when there was something shinier. And cooler. :)
And quieter, right?:-) Instead of moans, groans, and grunts, they got a "sssssssss-whooooooo-ooooooooo-oooooooo" as power was applied.
Nah, it was the AIR CONDITIONING ... :)
all i know is that ill miss them
Lemme know where you live so i can personally deliver a couple of pounds of boid cremation motor dust. CI Peter
Wow! IRT pixie dust! Does it sell by the pound or by the gram? :)
Nickel bags by the nosefull.
after reading all of the threads here...my comment is ........
" whine bitch & moan gripe complain " .......!!
What an INTERESTING turn of events! Howdy, guy! :)
Are the Flushing lines redbirds going also? What is replacing them if they are?
The Flushing redbirds will go eventually. What will replace them is up to NYC Transit, which hasn't decided yet.
David
as long as there is enough of em to shoot a video this summer ...!!
@ then at least i will have em on video...
Hope you can communicate in Pan Eastern Languages. The cream of the boids may go to #7 but by the time you arrive in my city the boids will be as dead as a Chinese Chicken flattened out by a 72K ton tractor trailer. CI Peter
by this summer ?
Mebbe a month or so.....transferred to 180th today (#5 line) so YOU KNOW how eager I am to see an end. CI Peter
You started at E180 today?
I start and Finish at E 180 St on Fridays
I'm 239/180. Means I work the 180th maintainance crew still at 239th and no assigned team....troubles....but right now doing carbody. Now I get to officially attend the 'safety meetings.' Always wondered what all the Russian crew piled into a Redbird for. Good Luck and God Bless my Brother. CI Peter
Look here and scroll to the bottom
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/
WMATA sucks ass. It's so like the PAris Metro, and dimly lit, and generally horrible. The transfer points are choking, and the service are infrequent. Their attempts at ITS are quite good though, the platforms display the train and how many minutes till next train. OPn the opther phand, PATCO's display doesn't work, it only says "12 mins between trains" and even does that in peak hours (when it is clearly every 4 mins)!
How do you define "dimly lit"? Better lit than most subways I have been on.
At least the trasfer points are wider than those in other cities. What do you call those tunnels and stairways at 15th Street in Philly or 72nd on the 1, 2, and 3 in NYC? They couldn't possibly handle what Metro Center does.
As for the PIMS, it is great, when it works. Also, to tell me the train is "approching" isn't too helpful, nor does it help to announce a train that never arrives, post wrong destinations, or tell me the train is out of service when it isn't. If only it could tell us what train was in the station, then again, most of them are off to the sides in the mezzanines.
Metro Center's main problem is the same one WMATA has with most of its original downtown exits to the street -- No stairways, just escalators. If your anxious to transfer from the Blue Line to the Red Line above and hear a train coming into the station, you're SOL if there's a line to the up escalators and the middle one is either headed down or under repair. Very annoying, and there's certainly enough room on those big mezzanines over the Blue/Orange platform to bang a couple of holes in the ceiling and put in some stairs up to the Red Line.
There actually are stairs past each escalator that take you to/from the Red Line. They are towards the first car of the Blue/Orange line if you are headed towards New Carrollton/Addison Road for the platform to Glenmont and at the rear of that train to go to the platform for Shady Grove. Vice Versa if you are on the Blue/Orange Line headed towards Virginia.
Are the stairs new? My days as a Red Line commuter/Metro Center transferer ended 20 years ago, and I remember that being the biggest bottleneck in getting upstairs/downstairs during rush hours (and pretty stupid, since the next station, Farragut North, did have stairs when it originally was built).
I don't think the stairs are that new, but I don't remember them in the early 80's either. The problem is, with the stairs being at the ends of the trains and the majority of the people being lazy, packed in the middle of the trains, etc., the stairs are rarely used. So many able bodied people run for those elevators, too, which I think is the most annoying thing in that system. With the "me first" mentality we have down here, the yuppies in their business suits and the prissies with their high heels are more comfortable pushing people out of the way to run up and down the escalators for trains that run every few minutes.
Since I get back to the DC area every so often, I get to see how much WMATA usage has grown over the years, and the main transfer points, like Metro Center, Gallery Place and L'Enfant Plaza, definitely need more stairs, not escalators, to handle the growing crowds.
Keep the up-and-down escalators at the stations for the people who want to use them, but stairs are a much faster way of getting people up and down a level, and the system is too heavily used nowadays to deal with the vertical choke-points WMATA created with their original 1970s we're-not--old-fashioned-like-New York designs (let alone the weather-related problems the escalators only set-up to and from the street cause for passengers at many downtown stations while repair work is being done).
Yeah, I mean, the metrorail is like going into a museum and I think that had a lot to do with the Fine Arts Commission. I think its a great system for what its worth.
So many escalators in the system are down right now. I know much of it is due to upgrading, but the other day at Metro Center, only one escalator was going up to the Red Line's Glenmont side since one was completely blocked off,during rush hour no less and there was a huge back up and only a few of us had the sense to run for the stairs. There was also a huge water leak of some kind on the upper level of Metro Center on Sunday that required the escalators on the Glenmont side that take you to the mezzaneine level where the old Woodward and Lothrop store was, I can't remember the street name there, to be blocked off.
Gallery Place is used even more with the MCI Center on top of it. That is another crazy scene after any event there. To get back to Virginia, usually I'll either walk down to Metro Center, or just go and take the Yellow/Green line to L'Enfant and take the Orange from there rather than worrying about cramming on a Red Line for one stop.
I hadn't even factored in the MCI Center into my Gallery Place complaints, but yes, especially with the Wizards actually being worth seeing this year, that would make the lack of access problem even worse. In other cases, close-in stations like Arlington and Crystal City actually have less platform-to-street access than end-of-the-line stops like Vienna or Shady Grove. That's stupid.
I've got a few other quibbles with WMATA -- Georgetown is their Second Ave., but in this case it was the residents' own damn fault there isn't a line going there -- but the system does look good. It's just that while many of the lines now have rush hour crush loads approaching New York's levels, the stations' vertical access layouts can't handle the number of people they have to, and they should add a few more stairways, even if it does take away from the "prettiness" in design of the stations.
I agree completely. I live about two blocks from the Ballston Station on the Orange Line and those narrow platforms can get pretty crowded. When the Pentagon Metro was closed to the public after Sept. 11, the Pentagon City Station was jam packed to the point that police had to be out to do crowd control since hundreds of buses were going to that stop instead. Pentagon is now allowing the public to use its station again so that's not too much of a problem anymore.
Its only now that they are realizing that there should have been at least a third track to allow express trains, reroutes around breakdowns, etc. Its too bad the planners messed up in the 50's when they were designing the regional system. More stairs/access to the stations would be a nice help at certain places.
Luckily, as bad as it gets at Gallery Place after the MCI Center lets out, it moves pretty quickly. There are about 15 fare gates or so that allow people to queue up and move through rather quickly and the flow to the platforms move pretty orderly, except when you mix Caps fans with Penguins/Rangers fans. It gets pretty rowdy then. The Wizards, too, are definitely Metro more business.
No.
The stairs are at the ends of the Orange/Blue platforms where they come into the middle of the Red Line platforms. The Red Line tracks are over the "middle" of the Blue/Orange tracks, so it is impossible to place the stairs or escalators anywhere other than where they are. AFAIK, the stairs were part of the original construction, as I recall them being there when I would vist in the late 70s.
If the escalators had been pointed towards the Red Line platforms going downstains to the Blue/Orange island platform instead of away, a companion set of stairs could have been placed behind the escalators, but still much closer to the Red Line tracks than they are today and in full view of all the transferring passengers.
The current design does move the crowds off the Red Line platform and into the back area of the upstairs mezzanine, but a wider Red Line platform near the transfer point would have solved the crowd flow problem. It would have ruined the perfect + layout of the arched ceilings in Metro Center, but function should take precedence over form when you're designing a subway system.
Keep in mind that 72nd Street opened in 1904, a good 70 years before Metro Center. For the time, the station was state-of-the-art.
>>They couldn't possibly handle what Metro Center does.
<<
au contraire. the New York numbers are immense. Its on been a year or two since ALL of Metro outstripped T Square alone. While I don't have the 72nd St numbers five bucks say they are higher than Metro Center.
I don't think the WMATA sucks, but I agree with Lexcie that the lighting is dim. But I understand, because that was the lighting style in the mid 70s to early 80s. When I wa sin high school in the mid 90s, they upgraded the lighting in our pool area because it was to dim, which was built in the late 70s. The only thing I don't like about the WMATA is the different fares to different places. I realize it may be convenient if ur only going a stop or 2, but for the most part I favor a flat fare. I've only taken 2 DC trips, once in April of 1991 and in July of 1997. At those times, the flashing lights before the train came were working, and I found that too be extremely helpful, and safer then ending over the yellow line to see if a train is coming. -Nick
Those lights have always worked. We were talking about the next train signs.
In addition, with all of Metro's modern construction, they still had a fiasco when wintry temperatures covered the area. They never thought of 3rd rail ice scrapers nor heaters around switches?
FYI, at PATCO, they're still testing the system, so please don't judge the effectiveness until it is actually operating. Thank you.
South Jersey's inability to get its act together and get a second PATCO branch built sucks big time.
On the other hand, I congratulate NJ Transit for its addition of Cherry Hill-Route 70 as a station, and its continuation of dependable service along the Atlantic City rail line.
On the other hand, I congratulate NJ Transit for its addition of Cherry Hill-Route 70 as a station, and its continuation of dependable service along the Atlantic City rail line.
Two hot rumors heard last night:
NJT will soon terminate the Atlantic City service (this is an old rumor)
A real Cherry Hill station will be built as part of the business/retail complex to built on the site of the defunct Garden State racetrack.
Cherry Hill station
The casinos depend on NJ Transit to ferry workers to the casino. Neither A.C. nor Trenton would allow a shutdown of the line.
My thanks to Dan Lawrence for getting me involved in the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. I've already qualified as a Conductor and I will qualify as a Motorman soon.
Eric D. Smith
Congratulations. Excellent news. Kudos to you and Dan.
Dan's da MAN!
Congrats. You'll enjoying working at BSM. Being a member of Branford has brought me great joy, so I know. How can one not appreciate history?
-Stef
Eric, good for you. You'll get great pleasure out of doing a little something to help preserve that old stuff for future generations.
It's been a labor of love this past 3 years for me at Branford, and the friends you meet along the way, like Dan, will add to your enjoyment of life in general.
Mr rt__:^)
I forgot to mention this. Last Thursday while leaving 30th St. on the Pennsylvanian I saw a pair of NJT Arrow II electrics in the Penn coach yard. Their pans were not up. Does anyone have a clue about this?
Didn't NJTransit recently sell some Arrow IIs to SEPTA? Didn't think it would be that quick, though...
The last I heard, SEPTA decided against buying any of the NJT MU's. Unless this recently changed... With all the talk of the 'Silverliner V' cars lately, and no demonstrated need for additional cars, I'd be surprised that SEPTA would be interested.
I see Arrows at 30th St every so often, and they're usually heading to or from repairs, overhauls, etc off property. If there are more than two it's usually for a special run, Amtrak rental, etc. I suspect the two there recently (which were oddly sandwiched in a string of Amtrak coaches) were being moved to or from an off-line shop.
The ARROW II's would be a good match for SEPTA. Their 80mph speed limit won't really matter on any of SEPTA's lines and it would be much cheaper than buying new.
I agree this would be a good idea. The center doors would be greatly appreciated at the Center City stations. I don't think given current conditions that SEPTA needs more cars, and even if it wanted to replace the S II's and III's, buying cars only 10+/- years younger than them is questionable. I'm surprised NJT isn't considering turning them into coaches as it did with the A I's.
The Arrow I cars have become Comet I and Comet IB cars. Both classes will be retired once the Comet II and Comet IIB rehabs are completed. You can tell Arrow I cars because they resemble Arrow II and III except for no center doors.
You have a time frame for when Arrow I's were demotored?
-Stef
Sorry. I have no info. Maybe fishbowl has the info for us.
I believe this occured in the 1988-89 time frame. I also recall that the A I's were out of service for some time before this conversion. Anyone know for sure?
Arrow I's resemble the SEPTA Silverliners more than the Arrow II's. This is understandable as they were both built by St. Louis Car in the late 1960's. For example the Arrow I's do not have any roof vents.
The Arrow I's, when overhauled, had their center doors removed and a panel was put in its place. This is clearly visable from the outside, but not from the inside.
The SEPTA cars also have this same exterior look, but on the inside, that center vestible is like a small compartment with two seats facing each other (and with immensly uncomfortable straight-back seats!). The Metro-North versions of the Arrow/Comet I is the same way.
Now here's my questions - did the SEPTA cars ever have center doors? If so, why were they removed and if not, why the exterior "door panel"?
IINM, the Metro-North cars were built as-is; they were not MU's in a former life.
< The Metro-North versions of the Arrow/Comet I is the same way. >
Those 8 Metro-North cars were built as a run-on order with the Arrow 3 . They were always built for loco haulage.
< Now here's my questions - did the SEPTA cars ever have center doors? If so, why were they removed and if not, why the exterior "door panel"? >
The SEPTA SIlverliners never had center doors.
The S IV's were built with the knockout panel (and the squeezed facing seats!) in the center. When they were delivered in '74-'76 the Regional Rail lines stub-ended at Suburban and Reading Terminal. The thought was that the center doors would be added if the Commuter Tunnel run-through operation required it. Needless to say, the doors haven't been installed (and are sorely missed). Several years ago SEPTA looked into installation of the doors and found the cost to be very expensive, so the idea was dropped. However, the IV's that go through rehab have one of the center seats removed, so the tight fit/get to know your fellow passenger well arrangement in the center section is gone.
Only the S III's were built by St Louis. The II's were built by Budd and the IV's by GE.
But who really built the bodies of the IV's for GE ? Was it Vickers (Canadian) ?
You nitwits need to lay off WMATAGMOAGH. My previous statetments notwithstanding, I still think the young man is brilliant when it comes to matters of transit. If you birds want to pick a fight with anyone, PICK ONE WITH ME!
Eric D. Smith
Ummmmmmm... I think he meant the "system"...
Not the POSTER... tho I wouldnt know fer sure
since the killfile is upto the dozens here..
Yeah, nobody was going after Oren at all. Its fun to slam our subway systems though. I'd never slam a person. I've learned so much on here, its pretty cool.
It's nice to know that you like to close your ears to all forms of reason.
Took the 2025 F out of 179th. Trains goes BIE right after 36th street. T/O goes to reset. Asked him about it, goes doesnt know whats going on, went to check back (im listening to my scanner meanwhile) Sick passenger, this is about to get sicker. T/O asks conductor if he should call it in, they agree. Waiting at QP, C/R asks T/O to come back, I get up and go behind the T/O, this guy is rolling on the floor and is resisting everything. Just plain old rolling on the floor. Screaming "if i dont get out of here im gonna pull the brake again" OY. Then another 15 minute wait. QP wants the F to move out but ain't giving the lineup. Peh Peh Peh. 15 min wait for lineup results in F going over the G line then to Stillwell.
Screaming "if i dont get out of here im gonna pull the brake again" OY.
Someone not get out of bed today??
Im surprised he even HAD room to roll around on the floor.
I am confused. As soon as the train went BIE, the crew is supposed to call the Control Center. So next they tell the Control Center that there was a pulled cord, no reason given. You also mention the train waiting at QP with the guy rolling on the floor. Again, they should notify Control of this emotionally disturbed person, and tell Control that he now admits to pulling the cord previously. Assuming QP is Queens Plaza, I am wondering what the F is doing at Queens Plaza? Was there some kind of announcement saying that the F was being rerouted?
I would guess the F was rerouted to QP so that it wouldn't block the route over 63 St. By having the F at QP other F's can still go over 63 and everything else can be rerouted to the local track from Roosevelt or 36 St to QP.
This screwed up everything down the line. Platform agents at 2nd Ave. and B'way Lafayette were telling customers that there was, "No V Service, only F" at around 8:00 - 8:30. Even in Brooklyn, the F was more packed than usual. In my 2 months living there, I have come to the conclusion that reinstatement of rush hours express service on the F line in Brooklyn is warranted. If only they had enough equipment to extend the V or G to, say, Kings Highway, where some F's terminate already, and let the F run express between Coney Island and Jay Street (obviously, peak direction only betweeen Church and C.I.) I guess it would have to be extending the G, since this would remove the turnaround traffic on the express tracks east/south of Smith/9th. If they extended the V, the G's would be in the way. But, hey, I'm just a passenger -- a passenger who stands on the platform at 7th Ave./9th Street in Brooklyn, with it's empty express tracks, and its jam-packed rush hour F's on the local track...
Running the G as a Culver local wouldn't reduce the crowds on the F, since anyone going to Manhattan would have to transfer to the F at an express station. It would anger the local passengers, however, and rightfully so.
I know this has been said before, but now the V can go to Brooklyn and terminate at Church Ave. (Not quite Culver territory.)
The G turns around at Fourth Ave. and The V turns around at Church. Then the F can use the Express tracks in the IND built portion of the line in Brooklyn after the Bergen Street station is rehabed.
If the G "turns" at Fourth Ave, and the F is express, the G takes up the track space of the F at Fourth Ave.
I guess then that there would be no room for a layover track around Fourth Avenue? That would solve that problem.
Alternate solution, is the G and V terminating at Church Ave. just as the G and R did at 71st/Continental and Queens Blvd.
More outrageous, would be to rebuild the track at Ditmas where the shuttle stopped and use that as the terminus for the V line.
Matter of fact too ka rerouted morning train downtown. Was a V that ran to Church ave, later Control decided to have it go further to kings highway. Interesting though, the LCD sign could display my neighborhoos name V - to Church Ave - 53st/6AV Lcl -Kensington/Brklyn
Those signs sure are versitile
Allow me to amend that: the G and V could both be extended to Church as locals, with the F running express to Church. I see no problem with that once there are enough trainsets (and the relevant switches are repaired). The status of Bergen itself is irrelevant; expresses could bypass if necessary.
Aha. We think alike here. I answered your other message, before reading this one.
Right After the T/O told Control of the brake pull (still in the tunnel after 36th, Control Came back and told the Crew they were going Over the G line to smith 9sts and then to Coney Island, thats why the line up into Queens Plaza
yes they notified the Control Center of all the things you mentioned. I apologize that I did not take a stenographic trascript of the Conversation on the B divison Radio. Yes there were announcements after we were on the move into Queens Plaza that the train was being re-routed. Also there was a delay in police respponding.
Sounds like a foamer POed that he didn't have a railfan window to look out at 63rd st. tube from.
A'right everybody, which one of you was it?
Here the Updated IN SERVICE list
7466-7470 with 7471-7475 as of 01/13/02
7526-7530 as of 12/30/01
7501-7510 as of 12/30/01
As of last Friday (1/11/02), 7541-45, and 7551-55 are running.
7571-80 being prepped for service.
-Stef
7551-55 were sitting in the Kawasaki tracks on flatbeds at Croton-Harmon time, it's about time they brought em in!
SEPTA has at least one train that has a full engine (sorry i dont know the name for it) and a set of bombardier coaches. I always see the train on layover at Trenton. Two questions, what is the schedule for this train and does septa plan to add more of these trains to its roster.
Also for those who have ridden it, is the ride different than the one on the silverliners? And is there one of these train sets on thre R5 too?
SEPTA has several AEM-7's and one ALP-44.
There is one set on the R7, one on the R2 to Warminster, one on the R3 to Media and several on both R5 lines. I think that most of the trainsets either terminate at Suburban (Penn Side), short turn and lay over (Reading Side) or run through (R5). They are definitly peak period only.
Your best bet might be one of the R5 Paoli/Thorndale trains leaving Suburban Station in the PM rush. I usually see one hitting 30th St after 5 PM. The trains lay up at Suburban during the day.
Story HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
They have better pictures online than they do in the paper itself.
Great news. Quite uplifting.
So, from what I gather in this article, the plan is to build a tunnel section (and I imagine, a station shell) through the former Cortlandt St. Station, and install a crossover south of Rector to turn around trains and enable South Ferry to be taken out of service and rebuilt. That last bit is news to me, but I don't follow this message board religiously, either.
One factual error- South Ferry is not the only station that cannot accomodate a full length train. 145th on the Lenox Line has this limitation, too.
This is why I view the field of Journalism with a grain of salt, especially on subjects I know a thing or two about. I can imagine what they botch on things I don't know. Anyway, that's another thread.
It really is amazing how often you see an error when you know more than the journalist.
My favorite example of journalistic mangling: a report about a NY state plan to improve the road "from Kaaterskill to Clove". There are no such towns. It was the "Kaaterskill Clove Road" (a clove is a deep valley).
You are correct. Journalists who have no common knowledge base with their article subject screw up all the time.
That's why Carl Sagan, who is a scientist in his own right, can produce really good material for the public explaining other scientists' work, and why physicians who are employed as medical reporters can do a good job explaining pros and cons of a given treatment.
Then you have Katie Couric showing off her ignorance and scientific illiteracy on the Today show when she interviews somebody about anthrax. But that's OK - NBC paid $65 million for face and bosom...
Then you have Katie Couric showing off her ignorance and scientific illiteracy on the Today show when she interviews somebody about anthrax. But that's OK - NBC paid $65 million for face and bosom...
Katie Couric has a bosom? Who knew?!?
It's not just Katie Couric showing off her ignorance, but the producer whispering into her earpiece that didn't do his/her research.
Well, we know Katie has a colon, since that's been broadcast live on the Today Show (stop looking at the TV and chew that breakfast down good kiddies, and yes, I know they did it because her husband died of colon cancer).
Well, we know Katie has a colon, since that's been broadcast live on the Today Show (stop looking at the TV and chew that breakfast down good kiddies, and yes, I know they did it because her husband died of colon cancer).
What in the world are you talking about???
OK, the long explanation: As part of a segement back in 1998, they actually stuck a camera up inside Katie to show what a colon-rectal exam involves. It happened about a year after her husband, attorney Jay Monahan, died of colon cancer, so the reason for doing it is evident. But if you happened to be woofing down your food that morning and turned on Ch. 4, it didn't make for a pretty picture.
OK, the long explanation: As part of a segement back in 1998, they actually stuck a camera up inside Katie to show what a colon-rectal exam involves.
I, uh, see. And now I wish I hadn't asked the question ...
That's not what I want to see after NY1's "Rail & Road Report."
Hopefully they started the tape after the camera was nearing the colon, if you know what I mean...
Yeeesh.
You are correct. Journalists who have no common knowledge base with their article subject screw up all the time.
That's why Carl Sagan, who is a scientist in his own right, can produce really good material for the public explaining other scientists' work
Well, I hate to break the news, but Carl Sagan ain't producing much these days ...
Good point. I wrote in the present tense, when the past tense was clearly indicated. I was a big fan of his work.
So was I.
I've met him in person, and I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been able to take his class at Cornell. It was he alone who got me interested in outer space as a young child, watching Cosmos on PBS. RIP Prof. Sagan,
MATT-2AV
Take it easy on Journalists-most of us are General Assignment Reporters who get moved from story to story each day. And while we try to factually bring each story together, occasionally mistakes are made. Try becoming an expert on something in a day, or a few hours (as in Katie's case) and see how well YOU do.
By the way...this event was probably a media tour set up by the MTA's Public Affairs office, and the reporter was escorted by a rep of the MTA...so blame the MTA and not the reporter, who only reported information given to him
I'll be good ... I'm former RTNDA myself ... there's a lot of folks in the business who don't prep for a story either and tend to sneak in, grab a sheet off the table in back and split. (on camera of course requires setting up the sticks and grabbing a seat for 15 seconds for a few reaction shots and head nods in the "room" prior to splitting) But a lot of reporters show up for a story cold and thus are readily lead in whichever direction former reporters now "guides" choose to twist the story. Only a reporter who has an idea -or- a DAMNED good BS detector can get past these "handlers" ... I see it all the time. And I did print, radio, TV and TV anchor though I was a small fish. Most reporters are intrinsically lazy, disillusioned and have stopped asking questions. These are the ones who "screw up" since they depend on being spoon fed everything and have egos large enough that they'll fake an answer if they don't have one.
Frankly, I think MUCH of the scorn is well earned across the profession, especially on the electronic side of the "trade" ... but most of all, you don't see many journalists, you have talking heads and other theatrical types. Journalism ain't fun. It requires LONG hours of research in mighty boring places, and a lot of "hurry up and wait" ... I personally think it all went to hell when reporters stopped hanging out in bars. :)
I'm glad to hear that! It looks like NY is the only government agency taking our rebuild seriously. Go Pataki! Thanks for nothing Bush.
Ah, maybe Enron will buy us a bus ...
Yeah, but will they have enough money left to fill it with gas?
Hey, who do you think has been pushing cities to buy all those clean burning natural gas buses over the past decade -- Enron (official corporate sponsor of the Koyoto Treaty).
I see that was a good marketing scheme...
They have a nice set of graphics here:
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2002-01-16/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-138371.asp
It will be cut and cover. It seems everything will be new.
Maybe this is ghoulish, but I'd love to have a tile or something similar from the station, as a keepsake. Would it be in bad taste if they sold such things at the Transit Museum shop?
>>Maybe this is ghoulish, but I'd love to have a tile or something similar from the station, as a keepsake. Would it be in bad taste if they sold such things at the Transit Museum shop? <<
I think it would be in bad taste, so expect to find it on ebay.
One thing that caught my eye in the graphic was the notation that "trolley tracks" were buried in the street pavement above the tunnel. Presumably these would be conduit streetcar tracks, unique to New York and Washington, D.C. If they can be recovered in reasonable shape, it might be a good idea to display a short section in the transit museum.
Excellent idea.
It's amazing those tracks lasted that long and even through the original building of the trade center.
but I'd love to have a tile or something similar from the station, as a keepsake. Would it be in bad taste if they sold such things at the Transit Museum shop?
Selling them would be in bad taste, but a damaged mosaic in the transit museum might be nice. Does anyone know if they will have a 9/11 subway damage exhibit when they reopen the museum? It would be cool to see pre-9/11 photos/plans, post-9/11 damage, and renovated station data. Especially if this will be finished as quickly as the article says it will.
There weren't any mosaics at Cortlandt St. IRT. Just plain old 70s white wall tile. I think the Transit Museum already has an original Cortlandt St. mosaic in the collection already (picture of it elsewhere on the site). I think the original poster might have been thinking of them selling the mosaics from South Ferry when they rebuild it but IMHO any mosaics should be preserved and built into the walls of the new station.
Sorry Dave, but Cortlandt IRT was reskinned in beige wall tile. The art was limited to photos of the area before the WTC was built and after it was built.
You may be thinking of Cortlandt BMT which was renovated from the refrigerator tile. Cortlandt BMT had artwork Travel Trade and Treasure and was located in the 24 hour underpass. I am nort sure of the status of the art but expect it may be damaged.
Beige, white, it's still not got any mosaics. :-)
I have no place to put it, but the treasure I'd really like to have is one of the crumpled I-beams, one with the station-name sign attached to it.
I'd settle for one of the tiles.
They are going to have to deal with the 'scavanger' issue soon enough. Aside from what they preserve in museum collections, or re-use in a new station, are they to destroy everything beyond identification or is it to be disposed of in a fair manner, e.g., an auction. Or is somebody gonna be selling it off the back of a truck?
>>They are going to have to deal with the 'scavanger' issue soon enough<<
They may not deal with the "scavenger" issue. My bet is that the Cortlandt St (IRT)station debris winds up at Fresh Kills with the rest of the WTC.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think the little signs will wind up in the homes of the contruction workers. Do you think they are just going to throw the "World Trade Center" signs out? The Cortlandt ones maybe, but not the little WTC signs.
Speaking of mosaics, I would assume before they put that ugly brick tile into the Cortlandt station in the 70's Cortlandt had name tablet mosaics, I wonder if they are still under the "new" wall like they were on the Broadway line. Does anyone know if they are or of any photos of cortlandt before they redid the station in the 70's?
Photos are HERE. Dave Pirmann rules!
Scroll down to Cortlandt St, there are 2 photos of mosaics just above the Chambers St. section.
Pretty cool, I should have looked there first. Now if someone can find a photo the old Cortlandt name tablet. I couldn't find any photos of those on this site. I would assume all the IRT mosaics at Cortlandt must still be under the brick wall, like they were on the Broadway line.
Probably. It's always easier to put a new skin on a station than remove the old, repair the wall, and put up new tile. And the newest tile in that station is definitely the "NYC transit on the verge of bankruptcy in the 70's motif."
Now if someone can find a photo the old Cortlandt name tablet
Have you tried looking through the sites that are on the "Links" page off this home page? There are always some random photos here and there.
$1 million a day sounds pretty cheap compared to previous estimates.. Let's see, 11 months X 30 days per month = 330 days.
So they're saying this whole rebuild will be done for under $350 million.
The previous estimates ($1.5 billion) were simply not credible for a plain vanilla rebuild.
The destroyed or damaged portion of the line is only 1000' or so. Even at $2 billion per mile 2nd Ave prices, that's only $400 million.
And think of all the things that DON'T need doing:
- Removing the paving and dirt above. I believe debris removal above is part of the general cleanup and will be done by the time this project starts in March.
- Building the line while keeping the traffic moving above. Includes things like inefficient use of heavy equipment because there's not enough space to maneuver.
- Noise abatement/limited hours because people live 20 feet from the work site.
- Moving existing electric, water, and gas. (Might be needed if they plan to deepen the line, but I hear no word of that).
- Building new stations. (Needed at Cortlandt but not part of this plan. The only station work is elevators at Rector).
- Covering over??? Not sure if they plan to leave an open cut for the 1000' at the WTC site. I guess at a minimum they do need to cover the tracks at Vesey and Liberty for pedestrians to cross.
>> And think of all the things that DON'T need doing: <<
Don't forget "maintaining daytime subway service while the project is underway." That is often the biggest albatross on a construction project.
True.
Yup. That cuts expenses waaay down. That's what was so difficult and expensive about the 63rd St. connection to Queens Blvd.
I was comparing it to the 2nd Ave line, which has a really phenomenal price per mile, and where there is no service to maintain, except at the connections with the 63rd St and Delancey St lines.
Good points. The article does state, however, that the 3-foot subway roof would be removed so the center support wall could be replaced with new columns.
Was someone trapped in the station with a can of spraypaint, or was that someone's idea of a joke?
Not to sound morbid, but when the south tower was hit, my first reaction was to enter the mezzanine at Cortland St. because I thought it'd be "safe". Had the tower collapsed immediatley, I'd have been the one who would need to paint such a sign.
You would have been safe, because the tower didn't collape, and in fact was designed to take the impact of a large plane without collapsing. It just wasn't designed to take a fire fed by many tons of jet fuel. So you would have had 50 minutes to escape via the underground passageways.
You would have been safe, because the tower didn't collape, and in fact was designed to take the impact of a large plane without collapsing. It just wasn't designed to take a fire fed by many tons of jet fuel. So you would have had 50 minutes to escape via the underground passageways.
Being right in Cortlandt Street IRT at the time of the South Tower's collapse wouldn't necessarily have been fatal. As the pictures elsewhere on the site show, while some parts of the station were crushed, others remained largely intact. Anyone on the platforms in the non-crushed areas might have been able to escape along the tracks to the north, although I suppose the dust and smoke might have created an asphyxiation risk. The tunnel collapse to the north of Cortlandt Street didn't occur until several hours later, when WTC 7 came down.
I was right near the enterance to the south tower when we were hit, which was very near to the downtown exit from Cortland St. I know for a fact that this area was pulverized, as the jewelery from the store right across the corridor was scattered all over ground zero.
The towers were in fact designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, which at that time was the largest commercial jet in service. The jet fuel fire is another story.
The towers were in fact designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, which at that time was the largest commercial jet in
service. The jet fuel fire is another story.
It did not seem to occur to anyone that when airplanes crash, they do tend to burn!
It did not seem to occur to anyone that when airplanes crash, they do tend to burn!
Steel has a constant melting point, so if it had been taken into account, very little could've been done. Although there was a recent article in some newspaper (I can't remember) saying that if the structural beam been encased in asbestos, they may not have melted. But that's not an option today.
I believe the theory was that any plane hitting the towers would have been attempting to land nearby, resulting in mostly empty fuel tanks.
Day-glow orange paint similar to those crews use to mark invetigation areas -- I'd guess it was done by one of the MTA crew that made the first tour through the tunnel to detail the damage when the first series of pictures was taken.
Many jobs have taken more money, but the Transit Authority said this 24/7 plan will be the fastest-paced project in the history of the subway system.
Except for actually building it.
It's an election year. Staten Islanders use the No. 1 train to and from South Ferry. Staten Islanders want the tunnel fixed as soon as possible. Staten Island is mainly Republican. Pataki needs a big Republican turnout in November to beat Cuomo or McCall. The tunnel should be ready just about Election Day.
Therefore: It will get completed on time, because there's an obvious political gain for both Pataki and Kalikow to get it completed on time. Motivation, motivation motivation...
Did anyone see the graphic showing two R44/46s with the old blue stripes in the IRT tunnel?
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2002-01-16/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-138371.asp
Yeah, I noticed that right away also, but I thought or LIRR M1's in the IRT tunnel, looking at that drawing!
Well, they said they needed to plug the tunnels after the collapse in case the bathtub gave way, so why not plug `em with a couple of R-44s? :-)
got back from Atlanta after a week. Marta was nice but they are in deep financial straits. After paying just $11.00 for a visitor five day pass (thanks to a convention in town of which I was not involved) The regular weekly fare is $13 which is still too cheap considering their base fare Is $1.75 and their pass is less tahn our unlimited card which is $17. I did get to ride in their new Breda cars- very nice!
Peggy also went and I'll post her pix later (via e-mail to Dave).
An interesting sidelight- MARTA has family connections to NYCT. Their CEO is the son of NYCT's Mr. Ford!
I hope you enjoyed your trip. Sorry about the delay in answering your email. For some reason I didn't recieve it until two days after you sent it.
Their CEO is the son of NYCT's Mr. Ford!
The MARTA website says his name with the Sr. suffix, is it really his son or dad?
MARTA finanical situation has been solved with a simple solution. Right now, by law, MARTA must spend 50/50 between capital and operational expenses. By changing the law to 55/45, MARTA has an extra $15 million for operations. The should change the law to allow MARTA spend whichever ratio is required.
I can get a university monthy card for only $37, while the regular price is $52.50. Thru work, I can get one for only $28!!
The Bredas are great. Those are the best looking subway cars I've seen. And I like how they display the destination inside the car when stopped at a station.
Yes, Your Mr. Ford (Jr)is the son of our Mr. Ford (Sr.).Recently, NYCT's employee publication For Your Service mentioned this fact.
I like the new announce which include places of interest at the station.
I am also glad you dropped the carpet in favor of the new fllors. The blue really goes well with the blue sidewalls and seat ends.
Hey Rob,
My monthly marta pass is $10.52 :)
i think that works out to about 20 cents a ride hahah
allen
Damn, you're lucky.
That makes me wonder if ANYONE pays full price.
I actually e-mailed them suggesting they raise the price of passes. I told them NYC charges $17 and $63 and our base fare is lower.
This one's required reading (with pictures in the print edition):
Daily News Exclusive: $1M-a-Day Fix for WTC Subway
See this thread here.
OK, I read the article, thanks for the link, now is there a test ?
Mr rt__:^)
All manhattan bound service was suspended at around 7:10 AM because of a 'sick customer' at Woodhaven. In my experience the only time they ever suspend service like that during the rush is because of a 12-9. Was that the case?
Is a 12-9 a disorderly passenger???
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Is a 12-9 a disorderly passenger???"
IIRC, it's a person run over by, or pinned under, a train.
According to the report I read, a 65 year old male jumped into the path of an arriving R train and was killed.
So you mean suicide?
No, actually he had aspirations to be a lemming.
does this explain the M train running the 4th avenue local to Bay Ridge this morning (I was picked up by one inbound at 9:20am at 45th Street)
Anyone know why W service got snarled on Monday morn along 4th ave? I got a railfan window on an M express 36th to Pacific, so it wasn't all bad.
Passenger rail a possibility, a freight tunnel will be fought to the death...and oh yeah, get those goddamned trucks off our roads!
http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/1011190504132457.xml
-Hank
Sounds like the only way the freight tunnel would come through SI would be if it was done with a tunnel all the way past Port Richmond and if it was the only way the city could also get funding for a North Shore line (it would be interesting if someone just ran the numbers on how much a bi-level freight/subway tunnel between SI and Brooklyn would cost, and floated up the possibility of a subway connection to the rest of the city as a trial balloon. It might get blasted down immediately, but it would get other parts of the island beside the North Shore into the argument).
$25 million per mile sounds very cheap.
Can we assume this will be a catenary-powered LRV-type line? The article seems to imply that the Port Authority would build and operate the passenger line (whether or not the freight tunnel happens) because that's where the money would come from.
The reporter did not contact MTA for comment.
Interesting article. If a North Shore light rail line is built, it seems inevitable that SIRT would be switch to LR too.
Are there LRV's which run efficiently on third rail, or would the TA have to replace the direct current substations with AC substations and catenary?
I don't think so...the system here in Calgary and Edmonton both run on overhead line.
-J!
The Docklands system in London is third rail
Here in Philadelphia, SEPTA's route 100 light rail line runs on a third rail.
Mark
You're right! Forgot about that...
How about runing the H - B Light Rail Over Bayonne Brigde ad connecting with the SIRT North Shore Line?
It would have to be a tunnel since the North Shore Line goes underneath the Bayonne Bridge...the amount of decline will be very large if you connect to the North Shore Line from the bridge. There will be a NIMBY object (literally) because they build houses adjacent to the North Shore ROW. They will look out the window and see the tracks directly. I took pics of the North Shore line, but I haven't posted them online
$100 to $200 Million to restore North Shore rail service sounds like a bargain. That figure can't be right. Those rails have been dead for far too long. If that is the correct number, then do it! We're spending that much to rebuild one station in Manhattan!
Are any of the underwater tunnels of the IRT (A) division built to Dual Contract specifications.
We know segments of the subway and elavated portions are with platform extenders along the edges of the platforms.
Anyone out there know about the tubes?
avid
I was @ East Broadway station in Monday night-Tuesday Morning with my work train. Well my partner told me that someone was taking picter of the train. This was about 12:30am. I just am wondering that all.
Robert
i guess Not.
Robert
now that Cortlandt street station is out of commission, does anyone know the best way to get to 18 Washington street from Jamaica Center Via E or J? hit me back and i plan to go on friday
J to Broad, walk down Broad (5 min. walk) then over via Battery Place; or
J to Canal or Brooklyn Bridge, transfer to 4/5 to Bowling Green to Battery Place
Take the J train to Chanbers St-Brooklyn Bridge, change for the 4 or 5 to Bowling Green. Take the stairway behind the booth to the street. Walk west on Battery Place past the entrance to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel to Washubfton St and make a right.
When I went there in 1993, I found that Rector St. on the N/R was closer than Cortland.
Yabbut neither the E nor the J go to Rector. I figured the O.P. meant the E terminal at W.T.C. and called it Cortlandt like the 1/9 and N/R stations at W.T.C.
True, but if he's coming from Jamaica, he can transfer to the Broadway line from the E or J/Z.
Are push-pull trains better then Mu's? MUs accelerate faster then push pulls since every car has a motor. I heard that push pull trains, since only the locomotive is live car on the train, they are cheaper to maintain. I think someone posted a message saying that coaches on push pull trains are not under intense FRA inspection since unlike a MU train, not every car is consider a locomotive. I'm not sure but I remember something faintly similar.
Yes, that's true (about the inspections). It's also cheaper for transit agencies that have both diesel and electric operation like New Jersey Transit; the same coaches can be used with either type of locomotive. (Or even Amtrak who will use different types of power on the same train consist.) Also, operations like Amtrak need to have different types of coaches (sleepers, diners, etc); cheaper to design them without power and use whatever loco is necessary. Plus operations like Amtrak will add boxcars for mail/express and baggage, would you spend the money to make them electric? You would have to, if the rest of your consist were MU, to make sure you didn't overburden the motors on the powered portion of the consist. So, it's just not practical in many operations to use MUs, any longer.
Like the EPs R137. Double power...no dynamic braking. CI Peter
EPs are R-127 or R-134. Both have SCM-1 propulsion packages. Why is there no dynamic brake?
I was told the dynamic brake package on the EPs was turned off so as to allow for better stopping with the flatcars of garbage containers and to provide better torque in motion. We get em in regular for brake shoe replacement.....nothing like a group box missing all that Redbird style LVDC contact crap with a pinball machine CPU displaying error codes. Hey, what do I know but what they teach me.......I remain stupid but eager. God Bless, CI Peter
I believe the crews turn the dynamic brake off in the mistaken belief that the EP's stop better without dynamic brake. Just another RTO misconception.
Could someone give an explaination of dynamic braking? I think it has something to do with converting the energy of the train in motion to electric power and putting that power back into the third rail. Am I in the ballpark? How does the power go back to the 3rd rail, does it have to be a greater voltage than the 600dc of the 3rd rail, or a higher amperage?
I'm not too good with electicity, but I have some concepts of basics.
Thanks
What you describe is called REGENERATIVE braking. Dynamic braking differs in that the electricity is dissipated by converting it to heat in a grid of resistors.
In any case, in both systems, the motors are turned into generators, the energy from the motion is converted into electricity.
Regenerative braking only works if there's another train on that section of third rail drawing power. Otherwise the regenerative braking would not work.
Whatever the Dyn. Brake setting is, I have never seen a condition on the EPs where all eight shoes are shot and have to be replaced. You know better than I that the EPs are modified for heavy work service....and their brake package works better than my R142s (check out the new work orders on the Bombardier when you get a chance.)
First pick was AOK!!!!! Lost my position at 239th 'troubles' BUT moved into 180th 'troubles' with M/F 7/3 RDO S/S with my signals partner. I may still have limited experience overall but when #5 starts running the R142 I may be the lead tech...a really good start for someone my age. God Bless All. CI Peter
Congrats, guy! Looks like you're moving on up and if you get to drag along a buddy, all the better ...
Got in with TWO buddies!!!! 180th crews work a lot harder but we have R142 experience and if Engine Brakes crew finishes soon, we will all be in great shape in the same location with the best hours. Been doing carboidy...easist job going now because parts are in short supply. CI Peter
Heh. Only in the TA for HOW long? And you've already got yer own posse? I'm proud of ya, son. :)
And hard work goes a LOT faster than sitting on a bench. I'm certain you'll be happy on all counts and it looks like them 142's will make the day go by in a breeze.
I still think of my first day walking in the barn....'Lord, where have you placed me?' I never knew I had the aptitude for this work and I think the TA is missing out in so many ways. The best is to come...switching crews means the slightly senior will have to solicite amongst themselves or go to supervision for bailouts because they have NOT LEARNED THEIR WORK!!! Thankyou SelkirkTMO. CI Peter
De nada, bro ... I saw the same shiftings 30 years ago as many struggled to pick where the cars they knew were going. :)
"First pick was AOK!!!!! Lost my position at 239th 'troubles' BUT moved into 180th 'troubles' with M/F 7/3 RDO S/S "
The fact that you were able to pick that job with those hours and days off with your seniority should tell you something.
It does..and I'll need to learn a little more in foreign languages .....and you know who my new 'big boss' is on site because your influence amde him a better TA employee too!!! CI Peter
It does..and I'll need to learn a little more in foreign languages .....and you know who my new 'big boss' is on site because your influence made him a better TA employee too!!! CI Peter
Dosen't the EP cars suppose to have a Ant-slip feture on them. I know that the night I had them thee wheel were sliping os mush going up some hill, exp. the one from the W to Stillwell Ave. It caused me to gap over the switches.
Robert
No anti slip feature I know of....just the solid state group box package and more motor power for low end torque. Unlike the garbage trucks I used to service (radio comm) years ago, I notice NO SMELL in the cab...safe for you T/Os if the shift is OK. CI Peter
MUs ROCK!
In Robert Caro's "The Power Brokers" he states that before the first World's Fair of '39-'40 Flushing Meadows was a huge garbage dump with freight trains hauling tons of garbage every day from Brooklyn. That got my curiosity. Anyone know anything about those trains such as the route. I can only assume that maybe they used the Bay Ridge Line to the main Line tracks in either LIC or Woodside then the Port Washington Branch to Flushing Meadows. Anyone know for sure? Caro was too busy bashing RM that he never got into any details.
I don't know about the route but in the book " Subway To The World's Fair" by Frederick A. Kramer, it's stated that the furnace ashe was trucked to Bay Ridge where it was loaded onto gondolas andsent via the LIRR to the World's Fair site. (pg. #7) No quantity was given but there were two trainloads sent each day.
That's pretty much what Caro said in The Power Brokers.
The story that I recall was that it was ash that was dumped
there, not garbage. That area was known as the Corona ash pits.
The dumping was up at the north end of the swamp. The southern
reaches where Willow Lake and Meadow Lake are now (both were
man-made by widening the existing course of the Flushing
River) was largely undisturbed wetland. The ash pits are
described in "The Great Gatsby", though the name is fictionalized.
According to Caro the ash was incinerated garbage from Brooklyn brought by train each day.
Incinerated garbage? OK, that sounds plausible. I never heard
an explanation of where the ash came from, and I always assumed
it was furnace ash.
Quoting from page 1082 of The Power Broker (the first pg of chapter 47-The Great Fair):
"Although the meadows were city-owned 'park land', for years the Forty Thieves on the city's old Board of Alderman had allowed Fishhooks' Brooklyn Ash Removal Company to use them as a gigantic dump for the burning of the garbage of all Brooklyn; by the 1920's, 110 railroad carloads off the off-scourings of the borough of Churches, transported on private railroad tracks used exclusively by Fishhooks' firm, were being dumped daily onto the meadows, and a once beautiful marshland was covered with foothills of filth..."
I wonder where the private tracks were and what the route was. Caro also quotes the passage in The Great Gatsby that you mentioned.
Private tracks? Perhaps the sidings of the LIRR main line
were private, but an entire railroad from Brooklyn to Queens
just to haul ash? That would be an interesting research item.
Are you intimating that railroads today are slow? You DID say that back then, a railroad could "haul ash" ... sorry, couldn't help myself. :)
And the R-1/9s could howl ass.:-)
According to Kramer, the ash was from coal used to heat Brooklyn homes. It was picked up curbside by truck and taken to bay ridge where it was loaded onto railcars. He goes on to say that the practice continued until 1934.
On the PW line on the LIRR and on the main line for that matter, near Woodside, there is a overpass which seems to me, used to carry rail traffic. Its rusted out and part of its missing. Any idea what that was used for? Doens't seem to connect to the LIRR. There is also a long overpass over Queens Blvd on a arch type bridge.
Could be for the connection from the Hell Gate Bridge line to the LIRR, which branches off to the east at the BQE from the line that goes into Penn Station.
Could be for the connection from the Hell Gate Bridge line to the LIRR, which branches off to the east at the BQE from the line that goes into Penn Station.
I think that's the line that Howard's talking talking about, at Winfield right where the Port Wash line branches off from the Main Line. But I didn't think Its rusted out and part of its missing. Don't Amtrak trains use that line to go to New England?
>> But I didn't think Its rusted out and part of its missing. <<
One of the overpasses over Queens Blvd had trees growing from it the last time I looked-- it can't be well-used. Maybe that's the one he has in mind.
The arched bridge over Queens Boulevard between the two LIRR trestles carries freight trains only. That's on the Connecting Railroad that goes from Hell Gate through Queens and Brooklyn to Bay Ridge. It does have a connection to the LIRR Montauk Branch on the Middle Village-Ridgewood-Glendale border, right next to Metro Mall.
Amtrak trains from New England use the Hell Gate Bridge and viaduct through Astoria and then branches off southwest towards the Sunnyside yards just west of the western leg of the BQE between the GCP and 30th Avenue. It does cross Northern Boulevard and Broadway on a similarly dramatic concrete bridge.
You're right Howard, and I stand corrected. The one Amtrack uses branches off at Sunnyside and goes to the Hell Gate Bridge. The second one, that crosses Queens Blvd and the LIRR Main line near Winfield, only carries freight and goes from Fresh Pond to the Hell Gate Bridge. The two lines meet at about 50th St and 25th Ave.
That's the line from the Hells Gate bridge to Frenont Yd. in Maspeth.
I love the metro system, and i rode it constantly when i lived in dc a few years ago, but i came up with some thoughts on some system expansion.
YELLOW LINE:
-instead of a heavy rail line, use the yellow line as a light-rail type of thingy. Use LRV's in the tunnels running on catenary. To compensate for the slight decrease in passenger capacity to and from VA, make all Blue Line trains run 6-cars all times.
-After Mt. Vernon Sq, yellow trains continue in a separate tunnel till about 11th and P NW, where they will emerge through a portal. Run on P street West to Logan Circle, and construct a station there.
-Turn around Logan Circle, and head north on 13th street.
-Make a free transfer at U street to the Green Line heavy-rail subway.
-continue north on 13th until Euclid.
-West on Euclid with a stop for Meridian Hill Park.
-head SW for about a block on Columbia Rd, and build an Adams Morgan Station at the columbia, calvert, and 18th intersection.
-West on Calvert, across the Ellington Bridge, and make a free transfer on Connecticut Av. for the Woodley Park metro station (red line) which is a half-block up the street.
-COntinue NW on Calvert until you eventually reach the cathedral, and build a stop there.
-Turn south on Wisconsin and make a stop in the Glover park area, up by the observatory.
-Continue south on Wisconsin and build a station at R street (north georgetown)
-A few blocks further down, a station around M and Wisocnsin.
-Turn West on M street, and build a stop around 34th to serve Georgetown University students.
-South on the Key bridge, into Roslyn. End the line at a loop around the Roslyn metro station, with a free transfer.
Metro originally planned for a station in Adams Morgan on the red line, but that plan got shot down somewhere along the line. Adams morgan is the densest neighborhood in the city and needs some rail access. Since boring a new tunnel between Dupont circle and Woodley Park would cost at least a billion dollars, this way would be much cheaper. It would also bring much-needed access to areas such as Logan Circle, meridian Hill park, the Cathedral/Glover park, and georgetown.
Any Thoughts????
I like it. I like it a lot. It tickles both my affinity for mass transit and my trolley fancy. Perhapse we don't need the Virginia part, but the line in the district would make a lot of sense, although sharing the ROW with trucks and cars would probably make the line no faster than a bus. When I lived on M Street near the Key Bridge, it sure was a pain in the ass to walk across it to Roslyn to catch the Metro. When the plans were made for the subway, Georgetownians fought vigorously against a stop anywhere in their neighborhood, even though only a slight alteration in alignment of the Blue/Orange Potomac tunnel would have resulted in a station on K Street if not right at M and Wisconsin (and why not one near the university, while we're at it). Times have changed. Now Georgetownians are looking to the Metro to solve their traffic congestion, and plans are farther along than ever for a stop in Georgetown. (Information source? Trains, Railpace, or Railway Age - I get mixed up since I see them all every month.) BTW, in G-town there are still rails on O and P streets, still cobblestoned and signs, "Caution - Streetcar Tracks", even though no streetcars have run there for decades. Buses now traverse these residential blocks.
I picked up this item in 1967 when I worked for Hagstrom. It was a spoiled press sheet--for example, the legend (outside the view) was never printed and one of the color plates may be missing. I'm only showing a portion to avoid possible copyright issues.
Anyway, this was during the era of the TA's diagrammatic map when Hagstrom was trying to reconcile the new (pre-Chrystie) lettering system and other changes with their traditional map. This was printed the same size and style and probably from the same master board as the maps Hagstrom used to print for the Board of Transportation. It was printed one side only. I had it hanging over my light table to inspire my own ideas for a subway map.
Notice that it introduces the letters (T, TT) on the map itself. I'm particularly interested in Hagstrom's attempt at "color naming" the divisions, The Red Line, The Blue Line, The Green Line and The Black Line.
Has anyone seen the finished version of this? It isn't the same size as the folding subway maps Hagstrom sold in their shop (they were bigger). Was it used for a promotion, like free maps from a bank?
Considering it shows the Rockaway line, I'd say it came out in or after 1956. Probably 1958 since it shows the Mott Ave-Far Rockaway stop. If you say it shows the Chrystie Line then I guess it is a 1968 map.
What it might be is a map that Hagstrom was preparing for 1968. But TA never chose to use it. You have a rare map that was never meant for use.
To add to the mystery, I have a 1967 Hagstrom pocket atlas which does not refer to the divisions by name colors. Also, it has the IND in yellow.
I have a well-worn Hagstrom's subway map which uses the same colors as your example, plus it includes IRT numbers except for the 3rd Ave. el. It also shows the same BMT letter markings for the Southern Division only. I only wish I hadn't completely blacked out the Jamaica express and Broadway-Brooklyn local descriptions. Dumb move.
Hagstrom generally used two consistent marking schemes for the divisions. In color, it was red for the IND (for its socialist origins ;-) ), blue for the IRT and yellow or green for the BMT.
Then there was a monocolor scheme for applications like the Yellow Pages, where a map appeared with each edition. IND was solid color, IRT was grey, BMT was alternating bands of black and clear, like a thick dashed, Elevateds were always thing black lines, whether BMT or IND.
Any variant of those would be a rarity, I think.
Hagstrom changed the BMT to green in order to be able to display the Southern Division letters, as on the map sample a few posts back. Previous to that time, the BMT had always been shown as yellow. Hagstrom used the same basic map back to about 1932, until they replaced it with the one currently available.
Bob Sklar
I remember seeing maps like this in the mid-60s. They were distributed by banks (I forget which ones), and usually the reverse side was entirely advertising for the bank which distributed it.
I believe one of them (maybe Citibank?) even had the locations of bank's branches shown on the front side.
-- Ed Sachs
Back than Citibank was called First National Bank of New York. Then they changed their name to First National City Bank.
I have a 1967 map and this looks like a pre 1967 map.
Though the letters that correspond to the IND lines are the ones used in 1967(Pre November).
It looks ver similar to this map from Irving trust:
I'm not sure of the year of this one but it say - F Broadway at 40th. Street - Opening mid 1966.
More pictures
F Broadway at 40th. Street - Opening mid 1966
Note: The F is the map location, NOT the F train.
Yeah, same idea. Hagstrom was still supplying subway maps for industry after they were no longer the official map. Probably rarely or not at all, now.
Someone posted about a test train of R 62As coming to the 7 line. NO its not here yet. Any further news about it when should we look for it?
The big shuffle is taking place NOW. My 239th yard is staking out it's Rebirds...180th is doing the same. Word had it that cream of boid would be served on #7....today on #5 carboidy I am beginning to doubt it. EngineBrakes crew is doing bookoo work.....how many boid bodies would a shoulder fired missle go through end doors before it detonates??? Redbirds have served remarkable duty and deserve a remarkable burial at sea. CI Peter
1, please.
send the 142s please ...
SPLOOOSH!
You're having WAY too much fun, bro ... now polish up that anticlimber so she can make another trip. Heh.
the last of the all usa built cars ...
replaced by transverse cab not made in the usa ...
Looks more like a kersplash to me.:-)
Close the big font html. The responses hurt my eyes!!!
Sorry about that. I promise that won't happen again :-)
Shoulda left the tag open and made Sarge BLIND. :)
Sorry of someone posted this already. I couldn't find it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/16/obituaries/16DOBR.html
Here's another from Newsday.
Makes me think: We do a lot of talking here at Subtalk about what could be done to improve the mass transit situation in the NYC Metropolitan area, and I think a lot of our ideas are pretty good. But here's a guy who actually got those in positions of authority to notice!
Today's trip on the LIAR went off w/o a hitch. Since Pigs was no longer comming I moved the time frame up and caught the 7:40 NJT Express from Hamelton to Pig Station. There was an initial shock of bad news when I saw that Amtrak had converted LINCOLN interlocking from penumatic to electric operation. From there I caught the 9:01 LIAR train to Babylon. We were slightly delayed getting under way, but once we cleared C interlocking we were off through the East River Tubes. The main line between HAROLD and JAY still had its block signals on wonderful 4 track signal bridges. Unfortunately, every other line I traveled on had had their wayside block signals removed, trains proceeding on cab signal indications. It was good to finally see how the LIAR system worked with all its diverging routes. I saw most of the famous LIAR towers including HAROLD, JAY, HALL, VALLEY, DUNTON, BROOK, DIVIDE, NASSAU, BABYLON, B and QUEENS. They still had signals at interlockings and I was heartened to see BRAND NEW position light installations (notably at DIVIDE). I also made note of the switch machines. While most of the lager plants are penumatically worked, many of the smaller interlockings have been comverted to US&S M3 electric machines. NASSAU interlocking appears to have both types of machine. After visiting Babylon I made a quick stop for Pizza and hopped on the next train westbound to Jamacia. Arriving just in time to miss a Ronkonkoma train, I laid over for an hour photographing the movements through HALL and ovserving how double slip switches worked. On the Ronkonkoma Line I was surprised to find that the line became single tracked and quite rural. The mythic parking lots of Ronkonkoma were even larger than I had imagined and even contained a parking structure. I had a camera malfunction right before I got on my Ronkonkoma train, but I was able to fix it while I laid over at the terminus. My final leg on the LIAR was a connection to Flatbush Terminal. The hi-lite was 80mph speeds through the Atlantic Ave tunnel and block signals in place from East New York to Flatbush. I was astounded as to how flimsey the Atlantic Ave. elevated looked and the fact thatthere were no railings or guard rails present. From the LIAR i transfered to a railing N train. I was lucky and got a slant. I rode the N to 14th St. where I did a sneaker trasfer to the H&M station at 14th St. I got to ride the new service direct to Newark Pig Station where I caught 5:19 express to Hamelton.
>>From there I caught the 9:01 LIAR train to Babylon<<
The 9:01 is a local and booring one at that. At 9:31 is a Babylon express that according to the schedule doesn't stop at Freeport like the others. There was 11:03 and a 12:03 express from Babylon to Jamaica. Not sure if which one runs on the Babylon Line or the Central Branch through Hicksville.
If you wanted to futz around a bit, you could have taken a Babylon Local to Massapequa (my home station) and go downstairs and take LI Bus route N-81 which passes the Ronkonkoma Branch at Bethpage, this saves the trip back to Jamaica.
Oh well, there will other times.
Bill "Newkirk"
Due to new customs regulations, the delays to Amtrak's International have been so severe that now only a few dozen people ride the train into Canada. Even w/ this level of ridership the train can take hours to clear customs. Taking recomendations from the state of Michigan, Amtrak plans to cut back the train to Port Huron and rename it the "Bluewater".
What about the Niagara-Toronto run (whatever it's called)?
Are they going to COMPLETELY abandon the border cross service??
Stuart, RLine86Man
Samething with the NYC-Montreal run?
This train (#63/64) is called the Maple Leaf. A popular radio station here in Buffalo advertises Amtrak "getaways" to Toronto. I hope they don't eliminate it.
< Amtrak plans to cut back the train to Port Huron and rename it the "Bluewater". >
That is nothing more than a recomendation by Michigan ARP to Michigan DOT about the International at this point. Amtrak has no plan at this time. They could well decide to extend a Detroit train to thru-run with a Windsor trains as a solution.
Due to a computer glitch at TA timekeeping, all TA RTO hourly workers in both the A and B divisions who worked on Saturday, January 12 will be paid 10 hours for the day. This is because overtime, exception time and penalty time was unable to be entered in the payroll system. This will be in our next check on Thursday, January 17.
An adjustment for 1/12 will be reflected in the following check on Thursday, January 31. Any overpayment will be deducted out of the 1/31 check, and any underpayment (wage shortage) will be paid out on the 1/31 check.
RTO Hourly Employees who did not work on January 12 will not be affected.
Please notify your fellow employees about this.
That just great. I work all most three hour OT that day with my Work Train. Now hope they get this right, by not taking to must out of my next pay check.
Robert
If you worked 3 hours OT on Saturday, then the TA actually owes you an hour. On your Jan.31 check, you'll get the hour with nothing else deducted.
Also there was another payroll glitch where the current Night Differential rate of $1.49 was actually paid at around $1.60+. Not everyone was paid like this. If you were overpaid, the TA will eventually find out and make deductions there. If you were paid at the $1.49 rate, you got what you are entitled to.
I got a 4:06 late clear on top of my 8:50 which equals 14:59 for the day. I know they will screw it up.
From what I have seen today, most C/R's and T/O's who worked on Saturday, Jan.12 got paid a total of 10 hours for the day, in most cases a 2 hour overpayment.
HOWEVER, MOST RTO WORKERS WHO DID NOT WORK ON SATURDAY WERE STILL PAID 10 HOURS FOR THE DAY. THEREFORE, YOU WILL HAVE 10 HOURS DEDUCTED FROM YOUR NEXT CHECK ON JANUARY 31!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Advice: Take the $200 or so overpayment and put it somewhere and do not touch it until the next check comes out since that $200 is what you will be shorted. Otherwise, you could be in for some $$$ troubles.
The following are the scheduled induction classes for promotionals and new hires for the first half of 2002. ALL classes in all titles will have the option of choosing the A or B division (subject to change).
Conductor:
February 4-- 30 students
March 18-- 40 students
April 22-- 40 students
June 3-- 30 students
Train Operator (open competitive):
March 25-- 60 students
June 3-- 20 students
Tower Operator:
January 21-- 5 students
February 4-- 8 students
February 25-- 8 students
April 1-- 6 students
May 13-- 4 students
Assistant Train Dispatcher:
February 4-- 4* students (tentative)
Yard Dispatcher:
February 11-- 4* students (tentative)
Train Dispatcher:
May 27-- 12 students
July 8-- 8 students
ZMAN: I need to know what number up to on Conductor? My list number for Conductor is #3399.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
IMHO, that number is very high. They probably won't reach you. Just my opinion from past observations.
Peace,
ANDEE
B"H
does this mean that they're hiring? i.e. open hire from outside the TA?
No.
Peace,
ANDEE
How does one sign up for the C/R exam??? (There was no mention of hires in the MTA website)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Pick up or subscribe to the civil service newspaper called The Chief ( I believe it comes out weekly). It is the best source of upcoming exam notifications.
Peace,
ANDEE
These are for people who have ALREADY taken and passed the requisite tests and have a list number from a certified list .
A while back I was able to obtain a July 18, 1879 issue of the New York Herald which had an article about the opening of the Sea Beach line. Here is the article in two pages, some of which is overlapping.
Warning to those of you with slow connections - the files are 300K and 200K.
Page 1
Page 2
>>A while back I was able to obtain a July 18, 1879 issue of the New York Herald which had an article about the opening of the Sea Beach line<<
Sea Beach Fred probably remembers this !
Bill "Newkirk"
Sea Beach Fred probably remembers this !
He was probably riding the cow-catcher on the inaugural run!
The average running time from the foot of Manhattan has increased slightly in 122 years. It has also increased between 59th St and Coney Island.
Thanks for posting that, Bob.
I hope Fred doesn't feel slighted that the articles devote space to Messrs. Breslin & Sweet. Those gents were the proprietors of the Hotel Brighton.
As long as my Sea Beach gets is due, I'm perfectly generous to share the glory with others.
As long as my Sea Beach gets it's due, I'm perfectly generous to share the glory with others.
Just scanning through the MTA website and came upon these interesting items.
Contract# R34156 calls for the purchase of nine diesel-electric engines to replace Some R-37 and R-41 diesles and a couple of Speno engines.
I wonder if the old diesel geezers will go out for scrap, maybe auctioned off to some railroad who may need a switcher or a railfan who didn't have the room to buy and store an ALCO C-420 !!! OKAY SubTalkers, place your bids and good luck.
Also this item:
Contract #E33804 calls for rehabbing station lighting on the Archer Avenue (3 stations) and 63rd St (3 stations) Lines. Work also calls for replacement of tunnel lighting.
Hmmm......Gee, aren't these stations rather new as far as lighting goes ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Fair market value of those locomotives (R37,R41) would be north of $50K each if they run, 100K+, refurbished.--- I mean GE switchers with 26L Air and Catalytic Converters, N*I*C*E but too expensive for most foamers.
Yes, but even so, the lighting was installed long before the tunnels opened for business, as well as before the TA started switching over to more efficient (and much brighter) lighting.
-Hank
NOOOO!!!!!!! I like the lighting style in those stations. I also like regular fluorescent better than compact fluorescent. Oh, well.
Can't the bulbs be cleaned of the steel dust, or changed out for more efficient bulbs?
I agree the tunnel tube florescent bulbs will need a fixture change to accommodate the lower wattage screw-in type.
avid
>>Can't the bulbs be cleaned of the steel dust, or changed out for more efficient bulbs?<<
If you're talking about the platform florescent tubes, yes I guess they can do that. The contract is kind of vague as to what station lighting is to be replaced. At 63rd/Lex, the lights are built into the ceiling and had translucent panels. Maybe this setup will be changed, though I myself am not sure.
>>I agree the tunnel tube florescent bulbs will need a fixture change to accommodate the lower wattage screw-in type.<<
Yes, that's because the older incandescent type works on the old 600V system. The new fixtures have chrome reflectors and hoods unlike the old lighting fixtures.
There are four types of tunnel lighting on the subway. Older incandescent, florescent, mercury vapor and compact florescent. The latter will eventually replace the first three due to reduced energy costs.
Bill "Newkirk"
From The Chief-Leader/Mark Daly:
>>>>>>>Safety Warning
A battery explosion on a new-generation subway car that injured three maintenance workers has prompted NYCT to warn it's employees and issue new safety procedures.
A steel box sheltering a battery underneath a new R142 subway car exploded December 30 during a maintenance check at the E.180 St. Maintenance Shop the agency confirmed last week. The force of the blast set the building's steel ceiling beams to rattling, workers on the scene later said .
>>>>>>Bleeding, Hearing Woes
The Car Inspector who opened the box, the foreman who was standing behind him, and a third Car Inspector who was nearby complained of problems with their hearing. Two of the employees were bleeding from the ears, and were treated at a hospital and released.
"We suspect the battery was overcharged, and the overcharging caused a buildup of hydrogen gas in the box" which somehow ignited when the box was opened, said TA spokesman Al O'Leary. He likened the incident to the explosion of a car battery.
To ensure adequate ventilation, the contractors who produced the R142 cars have been ordered to open the battery boxes outside the repair barn before the car is hauled in for maintenance by NYCT personnel.
An identical battery box installed on a R110 exploded Dec 11 while it was awaiting servicing, but no one was injured. The explosion ripped the stainless steel battery box apart and blew it's door across the shop.
NYCT said a similar explosion while either car was in service would not pose a danger to riders, other than the noise of the blast. "Passengers would be protected by the train and the platform," Mr. O'Leary said. "It would be loud".
An opposing view came from TWU Local 100, which represents the injured Car Inspectors. "It's a danger to the public because they haven't come up with a reason why it's happening". said Neil Persaud, a union Vice President.
The union's safety department has requested that all R142's be pulled from service until the cause is determined.
The union said about 430 of the new R142's are now in service. Another 140 are in storage or undergoing testing at rail yards in the city.
Two words ... "VENT" "HOLES" ... something tells me there aren't any in the undercar boxes or the hydrogen would have been able to seep out of the box as to be too low in concentration to be explosive. Since hydrogen wants to rise anyway, those holes could be on the top side of the boxes ...
You read my mind.
Helmets, rubber gloves, face shields and aprons. Meet CI Peter, the Doktor Frankenstein of nickel cadmium potassium hydroxide wet storage cells. Anyone on here with 'pointy shoes?' CI Peter
This is fantastic.
One can easily forsee the utter chaos that would ensue if this happened to an in-service train, especially if at a platform. The immediate reaction by most will be that it's a bomb, with many people stampeding, screaming, etc etc.
They better find a way to vent them things!
Easily done. All they need to do is remove the batteries and drill two rows small holes a few millimetres in diamater every so often on the walls of the battery cabinet near the top so that the hydrogen gas, which is lighter than air, can escape. A small number of holes around the bottom might be a good idea as well to permit replacement air can enter the cabinet.
-Robert King
Look............trainsets have used NiCads for how long??? The TA is looking out for us....read into this mess....crown the bowl with a serious BIE....and think flexibly. Nuff said
I have no idea why they're not using lead acid batteries. We haven't had any problems with battery explosions on any of our subway rolling stock here going all the way back to 1954.
-Robert King
Because lead-acid cells SUCK, that's why. They have to be
changed every 5 years and they do not like being overcharged
or over discharged. Nickel batteries with KOH electrolyte
have a number of advantages in railway service. We have a
former IRT supply car, #53, at the Branford museum. It has
Edison cells (Nickel-Iron) for backup lighting. After having
sat for over 20 years without being charged, when we turned on
the switch, the lights came on! The only reason lead-acids
are used in automotive applications and on most PCC cars is
because they have a superior peak amperage per unit volume.
The only reason lead-acids are used in automotive applications and on most PCC cars is because they have a superior peak amperage per unit volume.
Lead-acids also have superior low temperature performance to either Edison Cells or NiCad's.
Nickel batteries with KOH electrolyte have a number of advantages in railway service.
NiCad's have a lot more problems than Edison Cells. Edison Cells do not exhibit cell reversal nor memory. The latter requires that NiCad's be completely discharged periodically.
Let's just send out a few huge bulk orders for lemons and zinc and copper electrodes and be done with it.
-Robert King
100 amp/hour nicad cells in continuous service don't exhibit the problems associated with hand-held radio or consumer applications. CI Peter
I'm not sure why, but those larger NiCd cells (like the
ED-80 batteries used in NYCT) do not have a problem with
memory and they work fine being floated and having many
shallow discharge cycles. They don't seem to develop memory
such as is experienced with consumer-grade cells. Perhaps it
has something to do with the electrolye. The larger batteries
use a water-base electrolyte, not a paste.
I have not seen a schematic of any TA battery system but it would appear all simply have switchable parallel connections to the DC inverter and no current regulation of any kind while charging
I would expect that the inverter supply would have a series or shunt regulator to the terminals that go to the battery stacks. Separate connection or do they go hardwire straight to the buss?
Haven't had a chance to check my R142 electric schematics but after talking with a Dep Sup and comparing DVM readings, looks like batteries go to bus with 400 amp DC breaker...will ask what Klixon temp sensors connect with. CI Peter
Heh. Sounds like the days of the whirlygigs all over again. There was a failure mode on the R1/9's where a relay would busticate and when a car gapped, the compressor would try to run BACKWARDS off the batteries. NOT a pretty sight. Especially when the 600 came back. :)
Lead-acid batteries vent hydrogen. NiCad's do not. Most NiCad's are sealed. They have a pressure relieving vent to guard against an overcharge. This vent also guards against heat generated due to excessive drain.
When a NiCad is overcharged it does not give off hydrogen, it gives off heat. When the electrolytes are heated they expand. If this heat cannot be dissipated to the surrounding atmosphere, then you have a bomb.
The way this problem is handled in most chargers is to charge at a very low rate:C/16 - C/4, where C is the battery capacity in ampere-hours. The heat buildup within the cells can dissipate through the case to atmosphere.
It is possible to charge a NiCad in 20 minutes - at a 3C rate. Such chargers use a thermal cutoff to turn off the charger, when the battery temperature rises. This temperature rise indicates that the battery is fully charged. Such chargers and batteries are not available for consumer applications.
Now, if they are using NiCad's in the R142's, then placing hydrogen vent holes at the top of the battery compartment will NOT help because hydrogen buildup is not the problem.
If they are really using lead-acid batteries - why? They're a maintenance headache in a rapid transit application. The rapid transit battery of choice had been the Edison Cell or a Nickel-Iron battery. This secondary battery had the advantage of a nearly infinite number of charge-discharge cycles over an extremely long lifetime - 50+ years. Ni-Cad's are limited to around 1000 cycles. The Edison Cell's chief disadvantage has been poor low temperature performance. However, this performance is also mimicked by NiCad's.
They are nicad cells....and if the gas vented off during charge/discharge is not hydrogen/oxygen....there is more to all of this.
I'll have to look up the reactions later. Nickel Iron and Nickel
Cadmium cells, at least the type used in transit, do gas when
too much current goes through them. I've personally witnessed it
and I've seen written cautions about it. I'm not sure now if
the gas is H2 or H2O, but if you look into the cell (the walls
are plastic) you can see the tiny bubbles rising.
Lead acid cells were used on the earliest battery systems,
such as the BU cars produced 1900-1906. Once Edison Cells
were commercialized, they replaced the lead acids. B2H and B4H
sizes were common on LoVs, R1-9s, D types, ABs, etc. Most
of the SMEE cars were delivered with Edison cells, but at some
point the TA started switching to NiCd. They were also made by
the Edison Storage Cell company, model ED-80 (80 amp hours).
Now, I've been out of the game for a while, and CI Peter says
they're using a different brand of 100 Amp hour batteries today.
Incidentally the recommended charge rate for these batteries
is C/10.
And the question has come up about the voltage across the Saif battery assembly.....38.3 volts to be exact with the car bugged. A design flaw? There is a battery breaker.....400 amps DC. Much is being explored by greater minds than ours. CI Peter
And the question has come up about the voltage across the Saif battery assembly.....38.3 volts to be exact with the car bugged.
The nominal voltage for a NiCad cell is 1.2 volts. The initial voltage is 1.32, the average voltage is 1.22 and the final voltage is 1.10.
My guess is that they are using 1.25 volts and 30 cells to make up 37.5 volts. That works out to 1.28 volts per cell. It also means that the batteries are kept pretty close to full charge.
Unless things have changed since the days when I had my head
in battery boxes, they use 25 cells and a system voltage of 37.5
volts. The battery floats on the motor-generator, ooops, I mean
the inverter. With the old Edison cell batteries, it was 24 cells.
"The battery floats on the motor-generator, ooops, I mean
the inverter."
Ooops, you mean the converter. Inverter is DC to AC.
Yes, sorry, the "static" converter. Except now the politically
correct term is the LVPS
Boids still have a breaker labeled 'motor-generator' or something in that venue. Point is that it was only ONE R142.....I am in full agreement with TAs 'plans.'
The R-42 was the first car delivered to the TA equiped with a Static (DC-DC) converter. Prior to that R-10 and up had Motor Generators. They were removed and converters were installed during the various overhaul programs. Before the R-10s, trickle chargers were used.
That should answer a lot of posters questions about overcharging. When one of the Dep Sups went around with the TA engineers with his TA issue DVM and asked me for another meter, he was surprised to be handed a lab grade Fluke # 27. The difference in measurement was 1/10th of a volt. I asked if anyone had an alignment tool to drop the VR board down a little bit. They just look at me 'bug eyed.' I leave these problems to our engineering department...someone told me I have more experience and get paid far more than our engineers...I remain silent in these matters and 'OnTheJuice.' CI Peter
When one of the Dep Sups went around with the TA engineers with his TA issue DVM and asked me for another meter, he was surprised to be handed a lab grade Fluke # 27. The difference in measurement was 1/10th of a volt.
Is there a calibration sticker on the TA supplied DVM's?
NO!!!!!!!! What I find with calibration stickers is a disgrace to metrology departments everywhere. Only recently did I see trip and shoe beam gauges collected for calibration and what was returned is truly poor engineering. I had been given a lot of flack about bringing along my own test equipment and special tools...just guess who's asked for a loaner? I hadn't used a Simpson 260 in over twenty years (THAT required recalibration often in government service) but most DVMs retain their original (if incorrect) specs for a very long time. I'm trying to teach myself how to use a vernier caliper in place of a wheel gauge. What is worse is the air pressure gauges used in inspection on brake systems. Not only can't I find one when I need it but the electronic ones with calibration stickers are worthless in industry. I'm looking for a 4" gauge with an upper limit of 200 PSI and I think Grainger may have one for me. One day, a Dep Sup ripped apart everbodies tool boxes looking for a missing wheel gauge (the DS is TrainDudes protoge) and found nothing. The last gauge I borrowed was so piss-poor that the engraved numbers could not be readily identified. Stephen, you struck a really angry chord in me!!!!! I have to keep my big mouth shut on the job in regards to 'private industry versus TA.' Tools and gauges are an extension of human skills...the TA continues to remain 'Stoned and Aged' in this respect and for the life of me I cannot understand how proper maintainance of R142/R142A/R143 trainsets will be done without new DVMs, laptops and hand held storage scopes. That particular Dep Sup went after me with my 'gimmick light' and was satisfied with my thorough explanation of its use only in Redbirds. Train Dude makes Car Inspectors out of men (so where be de wimmen CIs.) CI Peter
...but most DVMs retain their original (if incorrect) specs for a very long time.
If you look in the Fluke #27 manual, you will discover that Fluke recommends yearly calibrations.
I've had enough experiences with out of calibration Flukes to believe this admonition.
No problem about metrology here!!! I don't think TA would pay for my personal 27s calibration...shlubs didn't even give me a cheapo DVM. Only problem I've had over the years was missing the 'zero out' pot that the Simpson 260s had for 'ohms.' CI Peter
hah, the gimmick light....a hallmark of precision engineering!
Seriously though, what's the big deal about 0.1 volts when measuring
B+ ?
Yep ... and in the R1/9's it was right behind your head on the number one end panel ... even had a light so you could see it was working. :)
Unless things have changed since the days when I had my head in battery boxes, they use 25 cells and a system voltage of 37.5 volts.
That works out to 1.5 volts per cell. A NiCad does not get up that high, even while on a charger.
With the old Edison cell batteries, it was 24 cells.
That works out to 1.56 volts per cell. Nominal voltage for the Edison Cell is 1.4 v. An Edison Cell will reach 1.6 volts when fully charged.
I'll have to look up the reactions later. Nickel Iron and Nickel Cadmium cells, at least the type used in transit, do gas when too much current goes through them. I've personally witnessed it and I've seen written cautions about it. I'm not sure now if the gas is H2 or H2O, but if you look into the cell (the walls are plastic) you can see the tiny bubbles rising.
I've done some more research. The following comes from a the manual of a battery manufacturer.
"During the latter part of a recommended charge cycle and during overcharge, nickel-cadmium batteries generate gas. Oxygen is generated at the positive (nickel) electrode after it becomes fully charged and hydrogen is formed at the negative (cadmium) electrode when it reaches full charge.
These gases must be vented from the conventional nickel-cadmium system. In order for the system to be overcahrgeable while sealed the evolution of hydrogen must be prevented and provision made for the reaction of oxygen within cell container. These things are accomplished by the following:
1. The battery is constructed with excess capacity in the cadmium electode.
2. Starting with both electrodes fully discharged, charging the battery causes the positive electrode to reach full charge first and it starts oxygen generation. Since the negative (cadmium) electrode has not reached full charge hydrogen cannot be generated.
3. The cell is designed so that the oxygen formed in the positive can reach the metallic cadmium surface of the negative electrode which it oxidized directly.
4. Thus, in overcharge, the cadmium electrode is oxidized at a rate just sufficient to offset input energy, keeping the cell in equilibrium indefinitely. At this point of equilbrium the positive electrode is fully charged and the negative is somewhat less than fully charged."
Most of the SMEE cars were delivered with Edison cells, but at some
point the TA started switching to NiCd. They were also made by the Edison Storage Cell company, model ED-80 (80 amp hours). Now, I've been out of the game for a while, and CI Peter says they're using a different brand of 100 Amp hour batteries today.
Looks like there are some tricks to battery design. This is the first instance that I've come across where a combination of charger and/or battery design has conspired to generate hydrogen.
There are some definite rules in the National Electrical Code (NEC) for placing electrical circuits within an atmosphere of a flammable/explosive gas. However, at 37.5 volts I'd assume that this battery would be considered "intrinsically safe" under the code. The 600 vdc definitely isn't. As I remember, there has to be a barrier between the gas and any non-intrinsically safe electrical circuitry. I guess that is why they put the battery in a sealed box. Punching holes in the box to prevent the hydorgen buildup would appear to violate the NEC.
Well, thanks for looking that up! So, the summary version is
that, yes, the battery can emit hydrogen gas, and that it is
basically the result of hydrolysis of the water in the electrolyte.
Concerning voltage per cell, oddly enough the Edison Storage Cell
pamphlet I have recommends using 25 cells for a 32 volt railway
application. The TA and its predecessors always used 24 cells.
In the case of pre-SMEE cars, the batteries were being charged
using a crude tail circuit off the low side of the 600V compressor.
There wasn't very precise regulation of anything, and the battery
was being frequently charged and discharged every time the
compressor cycled. The charging rate tended towards overcharging
since there was no way to know the duty cycle.
On SMEE cars the battery floats on the "MG" voltage. The Edison
book recommends a voltage of 1.50 to 1.60 per cell in this
application. The theory is that after a period of discharge,
the battery should be quickly returned to full charge, and, again,
since the charge/discharge duty cycle isn't being controlled,
they err on the side of overcharging. Since the MG is putting out
current except when the car is sitting on a third rail gap, it
would seem that the batteries spend most of their time cooking
slowly. That's why the electrolyte needs to be re-watered
periodically. There is enough excess electrolyte in the cells
that they can go for a while between waterings. Unlike lead-acid
cells, the specific gravity of the electrolyte in Nickel alkaline
cells does not change with cell voltage. The only problem is when
the electrolyte gets down below the plate tops and they oxidize.
It would appear that batteries have been operated outside the manufacturer's recommendations for some time. Edison Cells, with their more robust characteristics are more likely to withstand such abuse without problems. However, NiCad's are a different story.
Again quoting from "Eveready Battery Applications Engineering Data":
"The nickel-cadmium battery can be trickle charged but floating and constant voltage charging are not recommended. For maximum performance in situations of long term trickle charge the current should be kept to a minimum. The trickle charge current required to keep the battery fully charged is approximately the 30-50 hour rate plus whatever is necessary to compensate for any major withdrawals. Lower trickle rates maintain the battery at some lower state of charge.
If either floating or constant voltage charging is mandatory, a thermal cutoff which senses battery temperature must be included in the charge circuitry."
There have been a spate of battery charger IC's that come out in the past 15 years. These IC's provide an intelligent charging algorithm that combines fast, normal and trickle charge rates. These IC's are pretty cheap - probably under a $1. They're proably a lot cheaper than the NEMA-4 battery container necessary to contain the hydrogen and oxygen generated by operating the batteries outside the manufacturer's recommendations.
There is at least one (I think two) Klixon temp sensors but to the best of my knowledge all subway cars just parallel the batteries with the 37.5 bus. My personal feeling is that we had one isolated and not to explainable incident that Bombardier cannot account for. CI Peter
Yeah, I'm familiar with intelligent charging that uses either
temperature rise or constant current with dv/dt sensing. They've
been around for years to quick-charge NiCds, and NI metal hydride
and Lithium cells demand smart chargers.
I haven't looked over the R142 battery schematic, but basically the
TA has been using the same design since 1948 of floating the cells
off a constant voltage buss. Actually the design goes back to 1936
with the first PCC car.
As I've said, I'm not sure of the engineering reasons for switching
from NiFe to NiCd. The only change made to the equipment was to add
a 25th cell. The NiCd cells used on subway cars more resemble
old Edison cells than the sealed NiCd packs that are familiar
from consumer applications. Unfortunately I don't have a manual
for the ED-80 cells as I do for the B2H cells, so I can't verify
whether or not this method of charging is "against the manufacturer's
recommendations". All I know is from experience that floating
25 cells on 37.5 volts does not produce any serious gassing or
loss of electrolyte.
"It is possible to charge a NiCad in 20 minutes - at a 3C rate. Such chargers use a thermal cutoff to turn off the charger, when
the battery temperature rises. This temperature rise indicates that the battery is fully charged. Such chargers and batteries are
not available for consumer applications."
Are they too difficult to build? Thermal sensors are not expensive.
Excellent and very elegant explanation of battery operation, by the way. Enjoyed reading it, and learned something.
Are they too difficult to build? Thermal sensors are not expensive.
It's more a liability question. Special batteries are required for high charge rates. These batteries are designed to withstand overcharging long enough to experience a temperature rise without damage. If a standard battery were to experience the same charge rate, it might be damaged before the thermal cutoff temperature was reached.
Implied in your post is that a lower charge rate would be unsatisfactory to consumers (ie my having to leave my Norelco electric razor plugged in all night to charge it up).
Implied in your post is that a lower charge rate would be unsatisfactory to consumers (ie my having to leave my Norelco electric razor plugged in all night to charge it up).
There are some applications where it may be necessary to get a full charge in 20 minutes. Your Norelco razor is not one.
I had such an application about 25 years ago. I needed battery power for 14 hours of nearly continuous use. I could have sized the battery capacity to the load but low weight was also a design criteria. One possibility was to undersize the battery and recharge it. (My application would permit a small interruption). Most NiCad's are charged at the C/10 rate for about 16 hours to get a full charge. That was not going to work for my application. I could have used a battery that would completely recharge in 20 minutes. I could have sized the battery to last for 4 hours.
Unfortuantely, this application also required that the recharging unit be included in the unit and its weight be included as part of the design. When I started calculating the weight of the power transformer necessary to supply the charging current, the design became impractical for this application.
What about NiMH batteries? They probably weren't around when you were building your device. But, what limits do NiMH batteries have. They do not develop a memory like Nicads do and can be recharged many more time from what I head. Also, there's Lithium Ion, but I don't know how pratical those are either. We need a chart that has Nicad vs NiMH vs L Ion vs Lead Acid :)
Shawn.
Nickel Cadmium cell packs for industrial use have a better record...much lower internal resistance for higher output current without warping the plates. NiMH and LithIon cells are great for hand held radios and laptops. If you need a battery for 12 volt emergency use, choose a deep cycle lead acid. If you need a battery for 12 volt emergency use AND motor starting, call for a DEEP CYCLE LEAD ACID MARINE STARTING BATTERY. CI Peter
If you need a battery for 12 volt emergency use, choose a deep cycle lead acid. If you need a battery for 12 volt emergency use AND motor starting, call for a DEEP CYCLE LEAD ACID MARINE STARTING BATTERY.
Actually a NiFe (Edison Cell) battery has superior high current performance than a lead-acid. Edison Cells have 3 drawbacks for starting an automobile engine.
1. The Edison Cell performance degrades more quickly than a lead-acid in cold weather.
2. The Edison Cell's high leakage would mean that an idle Edison Cell would discharge more quickly than a lead-acid battery.
3. An Edison Cell would probably outlast several automobiles and thus kill any battery manufacturing business.
Actually, Stephen, my Norelco does recharge fully in about 20 minutes. It then gives me nearly a week's worth of shaves before requiring recharging.
Actually, Stephen, my Norelco does recharge fully in about 20 minutes. It then gives me nearly a week's worth of shaves before requiring recharging.
I salute your superior knowledge of electric razors. I use a safety razor myself.
Norelco is probably using NiMH batteries, if they can go from discharge to full charge in 20 minutes. The NiMH's a lot more tolerant of high charge rates than NiCad's. They're also probably using an intelligent charger.
Assuming it takes about 5 minutes to shave, the Norelco battery is sized for 35 minutes of continuous duty. My application really required nearly continuous use over a 14 hour period.
When doctors switched a medication, I grew hair almost everywhere but the place it was needed. I can use a battery pack good for about forteen hours of continuous application and it's not for my comm radios either. CI Peter
You don't rapidcharge 100 amp/hour banks!!!!!!!! CI Peter
What is going on is that TA personell are carefully removing battery cell crates and Bombardier personell are using a midget to crawl inside with a hole saw to install open conduit fittings. If one were to blow (unlikely) RTO, it would be below platform without any hazard to passengers. CI Peter
Doubtful. I think any rational person would consider that the sound of a detonation on the tracks would only cause a stampede of geese in panic. Ever fire off a cannon with a gaggle of geese around a pond? They trample one another. I wouldn't expect folks on the platforms to know "oh, it's just a battery box" ... thanks to the likes of CNN and MSNBC, they'd *KNOW* they just heard a real live bomb.
Needs to be fixed and FAST ...
Was it a 'bam' or a 'wump' I do not know. Our Sup did see the results and did push Bombardier for our safety. Only Nicad accident i know of was a cop who had a spare HT-220 battery in his pocket with a few loose .38 Specials. CI Peter
Heh. I've seen that trick done with 9 volters as well. Still, worth some 3/8 inch chassis punch usage or a nibbler tool. Hydrogen sources should get some air around their butts ...
That could ruin a cop's sex life.
What about an explosion on an elevated line over a crowded street? Dozens could be injured or killed in the resulting panic.
First of all, let's not let our imaginations run wild, yet. This was an isolated incident on the R-142. The R-110 incident may or may not be related. However, these same or similar batteries are used in virtually all car classes and operate 60+ million miles per month without incident. The incident(s) is under investigation. Before we run around screaming that the sky is falling, let's at least have a few facts handy.
However, these same or similar batteries are used in virtually all car classes and operate 60+ million miles per month without incident.
Are they NiCad's, lead-acid's or Edison Cells?
100 amp hour nickel cadmium cells made by Saif bolted together to produec 37.5 volts DC
Good and sane point ... I've been going on the rash assumption that if there was an explosion, then it must have been hydrogen (way too many years playing with outgassing myself) ... but if they're NiCd's (why on earth use those on subway trains given their high cost of maintaining? but I digress) then we've got a bit of a mystery here. Still, some air around them would likely help if the water intake issues can be dealt with as well. Ventilation's a GOOD thing when heat and gasses are allowed to build up in normal service ...
I've already teased in another thread that the 142's are headed to being dubbed the "Hindenbergs" much like your favorite 68's as "Hippopotami." Perhaps a GOH with paper confetti to amuse the crowds when one of these blows in the future. :)
Yeah, and if some of that condensation, especially in the summer with the high humidity, gets into the battery box...then we've got a "Houston, we've got a problem" situation here...okay?!
Stuart, RLine86Man
"but if they're NiCd's (why on earth use those on subway trains given their high cost of maintaining?"
The batteries on the R-68s, for the most part, are the original batteries. 15 years of service and still cranking. Ordinary maintenance of maintaining the electrolyte level and maintaining the converter output is all it takes.
As for the current incident, it's been assumed that a hydrogen gas build-up set off by a spark from a loose cable, was the cause. I'll wait until the final verdict is in. Right now the Division of Car Equipment has issued a directive that all cars within maintenance shops must have their battery box open, until the cause has been determined. Again, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is an extremely rare occurrence.
Not bad ... my experience with NiCds is relatively limited to ones no larger than motorcycle battery sized units used in broadcast TV VTR's, cameras and lighting kits ... none of which really fared well despite exotic Anton-Bauer charger kits. Developed "memory," "plate whisker" and other feats of doom. So my hat's off to ya on them lasting that long in your neck of the woods.
And agreed that things like this are rare - even automobiles which use much more gassious lead/acid batteries rarely have hydrogen explosions. But of course you know, all it takes is one event to make a federal case out of it ... I'm still surprised (and here still assuming it was actually a hydrogen event) that the boxes aren't ventilated from what I gather here - that'd be a nice simple solution *IF* it is a hydrogen event to prevent such from happening again, at least out on the railroad ...
You know and I know that things going "bump" under the car is everyday life ... but given the dose of the willies most folks have these days, I doubt DCE would want the occasional "wump!" in service nowadays. :)
"The batteries on the R-68s, for the most part, are the original batteries. 15 years of service and still cranking. Ordinary
maintenance of maintaining the electrolyte level and maintaining the converter output is all it takes."
Interesting. If I recall correctly, after several hundred charge-discharge cycles, a NiCad battery will not hold a charge because the electrolytes will no longer travel efficiently across its membrane.
If I am wrong feel free to correct me.
"Interesting. If I recall correctly, after several hundred charge-discharge cycles, a NiCad battery will not hold a charge because the electrolytes will no longer travel efficiently across its membrane."
Let me correct my original statement. The R-68s were delivered with NiFe batteries. Many of these are still in service after 15 years. Those that have been replaced (due primarily to cracked cases) were replaced by NiCad batteries, some of them of roughly the same vintage. (although serviced in the battery shop)
The R68s were delivered with Edison cells? (i.e Nickel-Iron,
not Edison brand)? That's weird. I could swear those plastic
ED80 and ED120 Nickel-Cadmiums started coming in around the
time of the R46.
Let me correct my original statement. The R-68s were delivered with NiFe batteries. Many of these are still in service after 15 years. Those that have been replaced ... were replaced by NiCad batteries...
Might I infer that all original equipment batteries have been Edison Cells until two years ago?
Might I also infer that NYCT's only previous experience with NiCad's has been limited to a relative handful compared to their experience with Edison Cells?
Rotboids all come with nickel cadmiums that I have worked on. It remains my opinion and experience that the 180th Street incident was an isolated case BUT management is trying to preclude any further incident from taking place. The R142 system is battery bussed connected through a 400 Amp DC breaker....the system to my knowledge can only alert to an overcurrent condition BY Klixon thermal switches mounted upon buss bars. When I get out of 'school,' I will look into this further. CI Peter
Rotboids all come with nickel cadmiums that I have worked on.
I'm pretty sure that was not their original 1960's equipment. The rebuilds did not start until the 1980's. That's where I'd start looking, if NiCad's are really universal now.
The R142 system is battery bussed connected through a 400 Amp DC breaker....the system to my knowledge can only alert to an overcurrent condition BY Klixon thermal switches mounted upon buss bars.
To do any good, the thermal cutoff should be measuring the battery's temperature not the ambient. Also, if these are 100 A-Hr NiCad batteries, they will be damaged way before the 400 Amp breaker cuts in. Charging or discharging a NiCad at 4C requires a lot of care to avoid hydrogen generation on both cycles.
It remains my opinion and experience that the 180th Street incident was an isolated case BUT management is trying to preclude any further incident from taking place.
I hope this gives you some measure of assurance. How many successful flights did the Hindenburg make?
The Hindenburgh was sabotauged. The US kept its precious supply of Helium for its military value......many survived the Lakehurst, New Jersey disaster. I have not inspected a Rustbird with anything but nicads (earliest date code in 1999,) no arguement about temp sensing here.......400 Amps DC is a lot of 'juice' and THAT breaker would do nothing in a battery box short or overcharge. It's a lot of politics that I can't be absorbed into....a current measuring shunt, brushless vent fans, charge regulation, battery case temp sensing and a whole lot more are needed...fixed journal bearings, improved software, working regenerative braking, improved door operation, modified end door mechs....the TA is working on something....CI Peter
The Hindenburgh was sabotauged. The US kept its precious supply of Helium for its military value......many survived the Lakehurst, New Jersey disaster.
What ignited was the exterior aluminum paint.
And the batteries.......I need to keep my job. Save the precious 'aluminium' for the Messerchmidts 109 E/F. The 'G' of course was a Hispano/Suiza product.
The theory about the aluminum paint was aired on Channel 13 some years ago. It's a very plausible theory. However, how serious would the incident have been had the Hindenburg been filled with helium?
Likely wouldn't have burned as hot but the aluminum *DID* make the flames visible. Hydrogen has a nasty habit of invisble flames. Ask any firefighter ... that sheet's scary ...
I read the article and that dope was an incendiary compound. The destruction of the HINDENBURG would have been just as total, just not as quick, that's all. Hopefully, hydrogen can take it's place as a fuel for the future. The world's oil addiction must be broken. Oil gives too much economic power to people who can't be trusted to be compatible with a civilized world (and I don't mean the good people of Texas) As for Airships, modern design lighter than air craft would make it possible to move huge machinery thru the air far easier than by highway or even railroad.
I owe some apolgies.....this was an old post I tried to reperk. I won't get into witholding precious Helium.
The purpose of the refresh was to bring attention to the R110B prototype car battery box explosion that took place several weeks ago. Four were injured: one vendor, two CI's and a MS. All were taken to hospital, one may have had a serious concussion from a blast that shook building pilings. The union made a big stink about safety equipment...CTAs schmatas are no substitute for common sense and training. This second accident was published for the record. CI Peter
Union paper had two safety articles: one was on how Vise Grips were used to control a contractors 140 ton stabalizing cable. The other was on Four Maintainance Workers Injured in battery box explosion at 207th...........One vendor, two CIs and one MS were taken to hospital after the battery box of a R110B prototype exploded in the shop during an explosion that lasted several seconds and shook the buildings pilings. One CI may have suffered from a serious concussion. SAFT is now providing a filler pump with electronic level detection to bring up cell levels. Union wants all battery boxes open during indoor lay-ups. CI Peter
Wowsers ... wasn't a Bomba after all then ... follow that Pink bunny ... he's gonna go over the wall ... :)
It was both. The 207th street incident was preceeded by one at East 180th St. A friend of 20 years was injured in that one.
Wow ... don't mind me, been out of town for a couple of days, just got back in and the old meatrom ain't quite up to voltage yet. Forgot we were talking about two separate incidents ... and my sympathies to your buddy - nobody likes to see anyone get hurt ... especially on the job. Yeah, I can see if there's two incidents that no box latches will remain closed anymore. Vent mods sound like something to be considered down the road ... hydrogen isn't a big problem unless it accumulates.
OOOHHHH....the post did get through!!!! Aluminium and hydrogen was anoter post.
SAFT NiCads produce Hydrogen and 2X Oxygen. Theory is vents work only when trainset is in motion. SAFT now provides a tank sprayer with an electronic sensor to detect cell levels: several of the cells purportedly in the 207th incident were dry. Hard to believe that cells void of electrolyte had a low enough internal resistance for high current. R142s sensors on battery bus bar (Klixons) trigger EXTERNAL circuit breaker when reaction temp is reached....wonder what the R110B does??? I'd just like to point out that none of this is unpublished information...my experience makes it easy to put it all together. CI Peter
Well, actually vents would work in static mode as well ... at least as far as venting the H2 ... nitrogen would displace it as long as the vents were at the TOP of the case somewhere under there. Lighter than air and all that silliness. It would work much BETTER though if air was being moved, but even parked, it would rise, just slower.
And as the 110B's, I'd check to see if some wiseass contractor didn't fill it up with DieHards and took the "good ones" home. :)
SAFT NiCads...
Would you know the SAFT model number of the battery and the individual cells?
There were no injuries involved in the 207th Street / R-110B incident.
According to the article I read Friday, all were taken to hospital with concern about one who had blood about his ears from a possible concussion. I am glad that there were no injuries just as I am glad that no one from my crew was injured from Bombas bug explosion in my shop. Eternal vigilance of the stupid is our first line of defense...a sharp smack of the shoe paddle edgewise should come a close second. It is now time to erect an antenna and put my KiloWatt on the air. CI Peter, WB2SGT
RTO?
Rapid
Transit
Operations
David
A MIDGET???!!! AHAHA! Is it a midge hermie by any chance?
don't mind me. bad inside joke. I don't doubt no passengers would be in danger on the road, but if it's load, and has any hint of smoke, you KNOW some will think the worst and panic. Especially tourists.
Guys, remember that the battery box is waist level in the shop and shoulder level in the pit. The R142 unit is a heavy stainless steel seamless weld box that could buckle and burst causing injury to TA personell. It is below the platform level and under the floor of the car...highly unlikely that passengers would notice anything more out of the ordinary then the usual 'whump.' As for elevated train lines, not too much more would happen beyond some leaking potassium hydroxide electrolyte and certainly no more molten metal than already gets spit off from third rail arcs. The concern is for the safety of TA personell AND for proper upgrades which should have been done by Bombardier long before the trainsets were placed into revenue service. CI Peter
But on the LCD Monitor, the car that would have the explosion would blink on and off of course, notifying that it wasn't a bomb, and the T/O will calmly tell the raging and out of control crowd that it was just a battery EXPLOSION. If only technology was this good.
The TOD might pip a failure only because two 'klixon' temperature sensors registered....they are attached to bus bars. Remember that 37.5 volts is trainset and only one B car needs to be in operation IF the other two cars aren't loading or shorting to ground. CI Peter
Ain't that cool!
Y does this ONLY happen with the NEW 142..CLUNKERS !! ............??
Because our beloved Redbirds lack this confusing technology and stuff.
Newer isn't always better.
Something doesn't sound right here. I can't imagine an engineering
team being sufficiently incompetent to overlook gassing in
a battery box. There would also have to be a second engineering
failure in the LVPS to cause the overcharge condition. Also
very odd that after nearly 10 years of service, the R110 would
choose this time to fail, unless it was recently "upgraded".
I smell a RAT here ..............a r-142 ............RAT !!!
man does it stink !!!
Anyone want to chip in for scuba gear or a one man sub so Salaamallah can go to the reefs and bring up his Redbirds?
Nah.....you'd need a Navy DSRV for something like that *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
We might need them now.
From the article:
The union's safety department has requested that all R142's be pulled from service until the cause is determined.
Who wants to go fishing?
We trolleyed two trainsets in during lunch opening the battery boxes and bugging the 'B' cars with water pouring out all over the place. Bombardiers techs told us to pull the bugs...everything was wet. Then we came back for another brake inspection...what is happening now is that the batteries are being pulled and holesaws are cutting new vents in the top of the boxes. A Dep Sup would like me to meet up with the engineers concerning battery systems because of my mobile radio experience...it surprises me every day that practical knowledge is not in everyones toolbag. The 'venting' is an interim thing and the real problem (if there is one) will not be discovered until accurate current and voltage measurements of the system are made. CI Peter
Hey all.
Will the R-143 on the l be runnin gtommorow. IF yes wil it be on the same schedule as durning the 30 day test
best
No....Since it passed the test, It is now out of service getting upgrades, etc,.. It should be out of service for at least a month.
-Mark
thanks
They delivered shell number 8149 last night.
What kind of upgrades is the train getting? I hope they dump the commercials (for Para-transit, airport service, unlimited cards, reduced fare, ad nausem)
I think they will be like those on the Montreal Metro eventually, displaying actual advertisements, not just those for the MTA.
Tomorrow is today (Friday). They will be out of service for awhile. L line crews not previously qualified (due to recent new pick) have to learn how to operate them. I was told that on Thursday evening, 8 cars were transfered to Pitkin Yard: 8101 to 8104 and 8109 to 8112. Look for them in the coming days running on the Rockaway test track.
The A Div. pick selection is scheduled to start on April 8th.
Both A+B Div will start in May.
Tomorrow I will go to 207 Street and look at the board to see what I can get with my seniorty number which is in the 2900's.
Is your number in the toilet like mine???
Its not that bad Conductors move up fast. Last Pick I can a lot of Choose from.
This is what was open
1 AM RDO REL Bway
1 AM XL Bway
4 PM RDO REL East (I took 1 of them)
6 steady No.1 Line Picked jobs
26 PM RDO REL Bway Days off ( T/W W/T OR T/F)
11 VR Jobs
8 Flagging jobs.
My choices shrunk at 2:30 PM. I'll have to be within earshot of the PA system....car desk MUST know of my crews situation. CI Peter
I was in your shoes in July when I saw the last assignment go a few slots ahead of me. I think the last to go was 5 days on the No.2 Line with W/T off. This pick was a change up because the No.2 was the first to be picked out.
The last to be picked was FLAGGING! There are 4 slots that where not picked. The last line was the No.1 with 2 trips to New Lots on the Late PM's. That was my Monday job that I hated.
>>>>>>>>>This pick was a change up because the No.2 was the first to be picked out.
That's because the TA created a lot of penalty jobs on the deuce. Money attracts crews like light attracts flies.
Thanx guys...I'm OK. Lost position in 239th...kept M/F 7/3 in shift to 180th crew 'troubles.' End of #5 boids means I'm lead tech! CI Peter
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. The supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order
made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
METROCARD MANIA BOOK - Fun With Used MetroCards!
This beautiful paperback book was published by Price Stern & Sloan. It is now OUT OF PRINT. It includes over 30 different projects using NYC MetroCards. Games, magic tricks, toys. Great for kids from 8 to adult. Autographed by author at buyer¹s request. To order send $8 each + $3.00 (s&h) (outside USA $6.00 s&h) in US money, check or money order made out to: Michael Makman. Send order to: Professor Putter PO Box 755, Planet Station New York , NY 10024-0539
There are photos on this website that shows redbirds being dumped off the coast of Delaware......is this true? or a joke?
Couldn't be more real ... they've gotten to be in SORRY shape ... and they're disappearing fast, Noo Yawk style ... "go sleep wit da fishes" ...
If you are referring to post 313239, I'm still laughing. Its a true joke.
Cars 6831-35 and 6836-40, which were both delivered to Fresh Pond Yard on 12/21/01, are now being prepped for service. The train was spotted heading southbound from Jackson Av moments ago.
Coming soon to a train station near you: Cars 6746-60, 6841-45.
More updates to come....
-Stef
>>Cars 6831-35 and 6836-40, which were both delivered to Fresh Pond Yard on 12/21/01, are now being prepped for service<<
Prepped for service for the #5 line ?
Bill "Newkirk"
and what're they doin' in B Division Queens?! Wouldn't a more logical location be (of course) East 180th or 207th Street????
Stuart, RLine86Man
They were probably delivered to Fresh Pond via the Montaulk LIRR.
Correct!
Is that the same delivery method from the R-44/46 delivery????
Stuart, RLine86Man
I believe that the R44/46 were brought in by barge/float to the carfloat bridge, and then carried over on the B/W.
via the West End (B/W)/39th Street ROW (NYCRR) [those tracks that look like they go to nowhere], I presume?
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not yet. This train had the usual 2 Train Electronic Signage.
-Stef
To insure the ongoing safety of the riding public and continuous operation of the R142 in revenue service, all tread brake shoes in all R142s brought into maintainance facilities will be replaced by TA personel unless a failed TBU is noticed in inspection in which case the vendor will be responsible for replacement.
Daily News
"A preliminary MTA map shows the northern terminus of a Second Ave. line at 125th St. and Lexington Ave., with connections to the 4, 5 and 6 trains and the Metro-North Railroad.
"Stops would be at 116th, 106th, 96th, 86th, 72nd, 54th-57th, 42nd, 34th, 23rd, 14th, Houston and Grand Sts., followed by Chatham Square. Two more stops south of the Brooklyn Bridge would follow, but the locations haven't been determined."
"Until more work is done, MTA officials said, they could not estimate how long the project would take or how much it would cost.
"Previous estimates projected 15 years of construction and a price tag of $12 billion."
Here comes the next fare hike :( [Quite possibly up to 1.75 or 2.00]
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'll pay $2 a ride for the privilege of not being packed into a cattle car on the Lex.
I wouldn't. For $1.50, Queens Blvd <-> Manhattan service rules :) Maybe for some increased late night service as comming back from NYU at 2AM can require quite a wait at 14 St and 6th Ave F. Staring down a poorly lit subway tunnel has weird effects on the mind after several minutes.
I think the TA should try the idea of charging more or less at different times. Say raise the fare to $2.00 on weekdays, but then make it 1.75 or 1.50 on weekends, and maybe 1.25 at night.
>> Here comes the next fare hike :( [Quite possibly up to 1.75 or 2.00] <<
If that's what it takes to get it built-- no more excuses!
This looks like a Water St line rather than a connection into the Nassau St line.
116th Street finally made it onto the list. That was a long-time goal of Manhattan Borough President C. Virginia Fields.
And a good idea for helping stimulate redevelopment of the surrounding blocks.
It also meets MTA has got a hold of a good engineering solution to the problems raised about that location.
All fine and well, if its ever built. There was plans drawn up in the '20s, '50s and '60s too, you know.
But 79th isn't on there.
But 79th isn't on there.
Don't think it ever was. Has always been 72nd to 86th IIRC.
Why? They want all of us to pile onto Lex?
Why? They want all of us to pile onto Lex?
Since the 2nd Ave line is apparently going to be twin-track only (NOT express/local), this is the tradeoff. Stations will not be as frequent as they would be for the local half of a line that runs both express and local.
Stations are three blocks long (or at least mezzanines are, dunno bout entrance spacing). The MAXIMUM distance you'd have to walk to get to the end of one station or the other is about 5 blocks, or a quarter of a mile. Not THAT bad.
>> Since the 2nd Ave line is apparently going to be twin-track only (NOT express/local), this is the tradeoff. <<
Yes-- we don't want it to be slow, like the J.
How do you figure that spacing? If the stations are at 72nd and 86th, then theoretically the north end of 72nd St. should be at about 74th and the southern end of 86th St. should be at about 84th St. That is 10 blocks! While I agree that something is better than nothing, I am really concerned about building a two-track line in such densely populated areas, more for total capacity and flexibility than for just express/local configurations.
I heard from an old time transit worker that three tracks would be better, as the middle track would serve in case of a BIE situation or a GO. The suits at MTA HQ just do not consider things like that until they happen, then it is too late.
How do you figure that spacing? If the stations are at 72nd and 86th, then theoretically the north end of 72nd St. should be at about 74th and the southern end of 86th St. should be at about 84th St. That is 10 blocks!
Correct! So the furthest you can possibly be from one station or the other is ... 5 blocks. Work it out!
If you put the 72nd St station from 72nd to 74th, then it's 15 blocks down to the 54th-57th St station, or up to 7.5 blocks of walking.
>>>Don't think it ever was. Has always been 72nd to 86th IIRC.<<<
Why such a big gap? Will these be IND-type aircraft-carrier length stations?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not quite aircraft carrier length, but yes, 2nd Av will be an IND line. 600 feet, and probably a bit more.
The story Iread is that the original set of 75 foot cars were ordered for the aborted 70s project; when they were delivered, they had to do some unexpected retrofitting of the existing system to make them fit.
They had to chisel down some tunnel catwalks to prevent the 75-footers from sideswiping them.
That and remember that a two track system will not be very popular if station stops resemble the local tracks on the Lex. MTA needs to compromise between exprewss and local stops. Also, the closer the stations are together, the lower the top operating speed will be. I'd like to see a top permitted operating speed of 60-70 mph on this line.
Cutting the stations to 125th, high-40s, mid-30s and Grand would do the trick. Whatever the difficulties of transferring at 125/Lex, the fast runs might even motivate someone with a seat to make the transfer.
Cutting the stations to 125th, high-40s, mid-30s and Grand would do the trick.
This made me chuckle before my first cup of tea! Of course if you cut out all the Upper East Side stations you will remove, in *many* people's eyes, the entire reason for the Second Avenue line: relief for the jam-packed Lex line on the UES. (Those of us in other parts of Manhattan think there are some other uses, but they yell louder.)
My points about the alignment are as follows.
o They ought to have the thing go east through a tunnel to Randalls Island and then over a bridge into the south Bronx. This will make the island's recreational facilities accessible, and create a place to put a yard.
o They should hook into the Broad Street line, esp. if they don't have a yard at the northern end.
o I'd like to see a mirror image of the orignial IND, with the west side served by a crosstown line in the low 40s that could run express down Second Avenue. Located right under GCT, it could provide a superfast ride Downtown for MetroNorth riders. Extended out to Secaucus Transfer in NJ, it could provide a quick ride into GCT for NJT riders.
You have to be kidding?!?
Well of course there won't be a speed problem -- if the train never has to stop to pick up passengers!
If you want speed, there already is a train that rockets express from 125th to 42nd. It's called MetroNorth. I strongly suggest that you get your railfan jollies up there, and leave the Second Avenue subway design alone,
MATT-2AV
If you want speed, there already is a train that rockets express from 125th to 42nd. It's called MetroNorth.
Well, two problems. (1) It doesn't "rocket". It moves along fairly smartly until the mid-60s somewhere. Then it slows noticeably, and crawls through the switching system. The scheduled and actual time between the two stations, which are 4 miles apart, is 10 minutes. That's less than 30 mph ... I bet the 4/5 run close to that fast on a good day. (2) IIRC, MN won't sell you a ticket between GCT and 125th anyway.
Well, just because MetroNorth won't sell someone a ticket is no reason to argue in favor of a Second Avenue subway alignment that bypasses one of the communities it is intended to serve.
Remember, the MTA tried something close to Mark's proposal once before -- it was the Madison Avenue alignment. It would run under Central Park, skipping the Upper East Side entirely. The option was rejected because it is a very, very poor compromise.
The first phase of the subway is intended to reduce crush loading on the Lexington Avenue line on the Upper East Side. It will have far reaching benefits to other lines and other forms of transportation. However, I take strong objection to the argument that the subway should deviate from its intention just because it doesn't benefit someone directly.
MATT-2AV
Well, just because MetroNorth won't sell someone a ticket is no reason to argue in favor of a Second Avenue subway alignment that bypasses one of the communities it is intended to serve.
I wasn't arguing in favor of skipping the UES, just adding the facts as they now exist. (Although I was wrong; you can buy a GCT-125th ticket, for $4.25, on a limited number of Harlem & Hudson Line local trains.)
I suspect the original post was tongue-in-cheek anyway .... running express from 125th to 42nd on a two-track line is clearly absurd.
>>(Although I was wrong; you can buy a GCT-125th ticket, for $4.25, on a limited number of Harlem & Hudson Line local trains.) <<
Actually, it's ALL Hudson locals, and all Midday and Evening Peak Harlem locals.
I timed the 4/5 in the old days before times and they took 10 mins from 125th to 42nd, just the same as MN.
According to the MTA schedules on their web site, you can ride GCT to 125th on the local Hudson and Harlem trains only. Monthly is $94 and a single peak one-way is $4.25.
>> you can ride GCT to 125th on the local Hudson and Harlem trains only. Monthly is $94 and a single peak one-way is $4.25. <<
That price (LIRR from Jamaica and west is similar) is clearly intended to discourage city riders from using it for that purpose. Someone would have to be in a real hurry to take that over the $1.50 subway ride.
Northbound out of GCT is always quicker than going to GCT.
I believe MN is actually 10 min NB and 11 min SB.
We've said this before, and we'll say this again -- Metro-North WILL, repreat, WILL sell you a ticket bewteen 125th and GCT, in either direction. It costs $4.25 peak, $3.25 off-peak, and $94 monthly. These fares are listed in the Hudson and Harlem line timetables.
We've said this before, and we'll say this again -- Metro-North WILL, repreat, WILL sell you a ticket bewteen 125th and GCT, in either direction.
Got it, sorry. Brain fade, since I was one of the people in that thread last month.
It does kinda boggle the mind though; I have to wonder whether they actually SELL any tickets at a cost almost 3x that of the subway for a ride of similar duration?
Very few, but the monthly pass at $94, averages to a one-way fare of about $2.50 (assuming use twice a day for 22 working days a month).
Why would someone spend $4.25 to go from 125th to Grand Central if you can do it for $1.50. It's not that much longer on the 4/5. I can see it once in a while if you are in a real hurry, but to spend $94.00 on a monthly ticket for something that you can do for much less on the subway is beyond me. Why would anyone spend that much extra to ride Metro North for one stop?
Hardly anyone does it. The residents around 125th are not very affluent. But the $94 monthly averages to a one-way fare of about $2.20 if used every workday, so someone living near 125th and working near GCT might use it for the convenience.
For years I rode Hudson locals, and hardly ever saw anyone getting on inbound or off outbound.
Same reason people board LIRR between Flushing and Manhattan even though the 7 express is almost as fast. They want a more luxurious and comfortable ride.
Yeah, but isn't Flushing a better neighborhood, and more affluent than around 125th St. Yes, the 125th street area is ALOT better than it used to be, but it still doesn't seem the people would want to waste $4.25 to go to Grand Central, when they can do it almost as fast on the 4,5.
Really, the only time 125th St would logically gety much use from GCT-bound passegers would be during a transit strike (just like Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens on the LIRR would see their inbound passenger load jump sharply if the subways were out).
It's about 18 minutes from Flushing to NY-Penn on LIRR, and about 30 minutes via the express 7 train to Times Square. Aside from comfort and convenience, there is a small time savings. If you work immediately around Penn Station, it would be worth it. Monthly pass is $117, which if you subsidize with TrasitChek, the difference is not all that much.
I never argued about the use of Flushing LIRR station as opposed to using the 7 train. I find that much more useful and likely to be used than the $4.25 from 125 to Grand Central. My argument was about how many people around 125 St would probably take the 4/5 as opposed to MN.
Not only would the upper east siders be indignant, but so would the large number of people who live between 3rd Ave and Ave D between 23rd and Houston. There is a full mile of Manhattan east of 3rd Ave on this stretch, and it's all residential and it's mostly full of people who work for a living.
Most new subways in the country do not get up to speeds of 60-70 like you want when stations are 1/2 to 3/4 miles apart. MARTA gets around 35-40 in the tunnels. Realistically, 45 should be tops for 2nd Av.
I think there are limits to how fast a train can accelerate and decelerate without being uncomfortable to passengers, especially those standing.
Even if the stations are 0.5 miles apart, 60-70 miles per hour is pretty fast.
Say you want your train to accelerate to 60 mi/h, and it has half the distance (0.25 miles) to do so. From a station stop to 60 mi/h in only 0.25 miles, you get an acceleration of 3 ft/sec^2.
I don't know what that acceleration feels like, but one g-force is 32.2 ft/sec^2. So that would be like a thenth of a g-force, and the train has to start slowing down the minute it reaches 60 miles per hour.
I agree with Rob. While the tunnels and equipment may be able to handle 60-70 mi/h, a speed limit of 45 mi/h is more practical.
MATT-2AV
That and remember that a two track system will not be very popular if station stops resemble the local tracks on the Lex. MTA needs to compromise between exprewss and local stops.
I disagree. A compromise won't be very popular. Those looking for an express will use the Lex; those looking for a local will, in many cases, find closer stations on the Lex.
If the line must initially have only two tracks, it should be built with later expansion in mind. That means, at least on paper, there must be a full suite of local stops. (Some could be skipped in the initial incarnation.)
If the line must initially have only two tracks, it should be built with later expansion in mind
But we know they won't do that, by which I mean provisions for express stations somewhere in the 50s and 40s. Otherwise, they'd have to shoehorn-in lower level platforms while supporting full service upstairs. Which means, if it's ever built at all, we'll be talking about a Third Avenue subway about then.
The stubway makes no sense as a 4 tracker, but once Houston St. is reached, it most certainly does. The express stations might parallel that of the original config of the Lex (86th, 42nd, 14th).
Nonsense. While I'd certainly rather see a full-length line than a stubway, if only a stubway is built, it too should be a four-track line. You grossly underestimate the passenger load at the Upper East Side 4/5/6 stations -- the UES is one of the densest neighborhoods in the country.
I'd envision it not as a bilevel line (which makes for difficult transfers) but as a standard four-tracks-side-by-side line. The initial construction would be along (say) the west side of the avenue; when the funding is found, a second pair of tracks would be built along the east side.
You misunderstand me.
I said the stubway makes no sense as a 4-track line, but most certainly, if it ever gets down near 14th St., then it most certainly makes sense as a 4-tracker, and in fact, this is the only way to go. And I am the first to insist that the whole thing should be designed as a 4-tracker.
If they are going to use tunnel boring machines, not leaving provision for a 2nd double bore would be foolish. You decide the location and basic design of your express stations. Putting express trains on a lower level for at least part of the express runs is not unreasonable, but it's whatever is cheaper.
I don't think I misunderstand you at all.
Of course, a full-length line would be preferable -- but even a stubway should have four tracks.
Tune in next Season for "Big Dig II: New York City". Watch as they try to please everyone and end up alienating everyone.
The City should just close 2nd Ave. (or sections of it) for the duration of construction. This would probably reduce construction time to 5 years or so. I lot of inconvience for a short time is greater than a fair amount of inconvience for a long long time.
I was thinking the same thing. If they dig out the tunnel by segments, cover it, then move to the next segment, it would cause minimal disruption.
Anyone know the geology of 2nd Av? Where could TBMs be used?
Most of the planned 2nd Av 'stubway' was *completed* in the 70s, except for the stations. The expensive mess will be the major intersections that get ripped up for these unbuilt stations.
The segment from Houston to 63rd is unbuilt (tho' this site reports rumors about segments just north of Houston).
A small segment down on Water St. is also finished.
I wouldn't call it "most." The completed sections in the "stubway" area are from E. 99th to E. 106th Streets and E. 110th to E. 120th Streets. That's 17 blocks out of 62 from E. 63rd to E. 125th Streets, not even counting the couple of blocks over from Second Avenue to Lexington Avenue.
The section from E. 2nd to E. 9th Streets was started but not completed. Word I get is that it was filled in. The only completed downtown section is a short one under Confucius Plaza.
As to the preferred construction method, most of the line is to be built by TBMs (if it happens at all), with cut-and-cover reserved mostly for station areas.
David
The difference between construction today and 25 years ago is that the TBM will mean minimal disruption between stations. You can't get around cut and cover for station work, but in the 1960's the whole stretch of avenue would have been ripped up, eventually.
This will be a much easier experience.
Whole stretches of 2nd Ave WERE ripped up in the 70s. I don't know how much they built but upper 2nd Ave was a mess. All it takes is a few blocks of really narrow avenue and the avenue isn't very usable.
My brother-in-law remembers when 2nd Ave. was torn up in the 70s during construction of the existing tunnel sections.
"Anyone know the geology of 2nd Av? Where could TBMs be used?"
TBMs can and will be used for a major part of construction. I wouldn't look too deeply into engineering details from "The Daily News". It sure isn't ENR.
I had a geologic profile of Second Avenue in my desk drawer, but I can't find it right now. If I recall correctly, you have mostly rock to bore through untill ~96th Street, at which point the makeup shifts to sand/soil. I'll have to try and find the profile. But I digress.
I would suggest using TBMs for the portions up to about 99th Street, and then shift to cut-and-cover to connect the existing tunnel segments.
MATT-2AV
TBM's are slow and inefficient. They move about 10 feet a day each. Look how long the Tunnel 3 aquaduct has taken to build. Blasting is a much faster method of tunnel construction, unfortunately it is dangerous. I propose we use illegal immigrants in a sort of "earn your citizenship" programme. They can already join the army, why not a civilian occupation of similar risk?
Should I even dignify this post with a response?
Oh well, what the heck.
You are incorrect on both accounts. The first one, regarding the immigrants, I won't touch with a ten foot pole. Have you been watching "Starship Troopers" again?
Now about the TBM, they are certainly not inefficient. Where do you come up with such ideas? Making such claims dissolves the credibility of any of your arguments.
TBMs have completely revolutionized tunnel building. They can be manned by relatively few, they are fully automated, and they can operate 24 hours a day. The are laser guided and infinitely precise.
"Look how long the Tunnel 3 aquaduct has taken to build."
Um, Tunnels 1 & 2 were built in several sections simultaneously by a much larger crew and are each substantially smaller than Tunnel 3.
Or do you just not like the way tunnels bored with TBMs "look"?
MATT-2AV
TBMs have completely revolutionized tunnel building. They can be manned by relatively few, they are fully automated, and they can operate 24 hours a day. The are laser guided and infinitely precise.
A crew of low paid workers can do the same at a much faster pace. Second, a TBM is not fully automated. They need a crew to change the very expensive drilling heads every hour or so as drilling through hard materials is not what TBM's excell at. TBM's are cheaper and that is all they are. Cheaper is not better.
Yes it is. Listen to the birds, they go CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP. Build the damned thing as cheaply as possible without sacrificing safety or utility, forget all FOAMER rantings, and give us more subway.
MATT-2AV is a civil engineer who knows a thing or two about tunnel building. I'm a civil engineering major as well. I believe he worked on the T3 project (Correct me if I'm wrong). Tunnel building is a very dangerous job and workers get paid accordingly (ie, a lot). Employers do not go out to gas stations and grab some illegal immigrants for tunnel building. Get out of the 1910s and join us in the real world. Since you know how fast a crew digging out a tunnel is, please give me a number. And I know the rate it took to dig the London tubes, so I'll post that once you give the wrong number. And also, TBMs DO EXCEL at hard materials like granite. In fact, that is the only time when they are used. Try geting a guy with a pick ax to do the same thing.
"A crew of low paid workers can do the same at a much faster pace."
There is no such thing as a low paid construction worker. :^) In some cities, the pay may be somewhat cheaper or more expensive than other cities depending on how strong the unions are, but construction workers are rarely paid burger-flipper wages, and NEVER on government projects.
Even if you could pay workers relatively low wages, the safety regulations -- which generally ARE enforced on government projects -- makes workers expensive and gives contractors strong incentive to use as few workers as possible.
I think the idea is to import some third-world coolie-wage contract workers who'd have zero rights insofar as workers comp, unionization, etc, would go. We're not saying such workers would endure less safe working conditions, etc, just that they don't get paid much and would be given every motivation to work fast.
I suspect if you paid off the unions, it'd still be cheaper/faster.
(I think the idea is to import some third-world coolie-wage contract workers who'd have zero rights insofar as workers comp, unionization, etc, would go. We're not saying such workers would endure less safe working conditions, etc, just that they don't get paid much and would be given every motivation to work fast. I suspect if you paid off the unions, it'd still be cheaper/faster.)
Or you could hire NYC residents for solid working to middle-income wages, but force all of them to show at work and do their job. Unlike the suburban/mafia workforce on public projects, some of which get paid to stay at home. Corruption, inefficiency, and featherbedding are the issues, not wages. Those NYC construction workers who work earn their pay.
If the City were run rationally, instead of politically, it would save money in booms and then do public works in recessions; the construction workers would agree to accept lower wages at that time to keep working. Instead, the City and State piled on debt and projects the a boom and paid top dollar. They'll now be cutting back in a recession. One reason construction workers are so greedy when they can be is that they are dumped on the street with no work every few years.
True story. I work in the medical field. I give you the demographics of a certain patient I remember: Italian surname, lived in Dyker Heights; was a concrete contractor; had a old unremoved bullet lodged someplace I forget.
There are good craft tradesmen in the city. I know a few of them; they do good work, work hard, and are proud of their work. Trouble is, it's hard as hell to find one, especially for small jobs. And there are also lots of shirkers, who've learned you earn just as much by just getting by. There is a shortage of motivated craftsmen, so we put up with the tatooed effups.
I had to come to New York to learn what 'golden time' is. It's more than just overtime: it's whatever the workman wants, because you are desperate to get the job done on time, basically triple time plus a couple or three big bills that don't get reported to Uncle Sam.
There is a shortage of motivated craftsmen, so we put up with the tatooed effups.
Not that tattoos in and of themselves are an indicator of anything, hmmmmmmm?
Or you could hire NYC residents for solid working to middle-income wages, but force all of them to show at work and do their job. Unlike the suburban/mafia workforce on public projects, some of which get paid to stay at home. Corruption, inefficiency, and featherbedding are the issues, not wages. Those NYC construction workers who work earn their pay.
I remember hearing a joke about the difference between Atlanta, Chicago, Philadelphia and New York:
On a 10-man public works project in Atlanta, eight men work while two men stand around drinking coffee.
On a 10-man public works project in Chicago, seven men work while three men stand around drinking coffee.
On a 10-man public works project in Philadelphia, five men work while five men stand around drinking coffee.
And on a 10-man public works project in New York, no men work while 10 men stand around drinking coffee!
heh... That reminds me of another one:
Three general contractors, one from Atlanta, one from Houston, and one from Chicago, were at a zoo. During the course of their visit, they happened to meet the grounds superintendent. Upon learning of their professions, the superintendent said, "Hey, I've got a fence out back that needs to be replaced. Would you guys mind taking a look at it and maybe giving me an estimate?"
"Sure," they said, and followed the superintendent to the back of the property.
The contractor from Houston was first. He pulled out a notepad and calculator, took some measurements with his tape measure, made a sketch, and punched some numbers. "Let's see... $1000 for materials, $1500 for labor, and $500 profit for me, that's $3000 total."
The contractor from Atlanta then took a look at the fence, took some measurements, made a couple sketches in his notepad, and added up some numbers. "I'll do it for $2000. $750 for materials, $750 for labor, and $500 profit for me."
Finally, it was the Chicago contractor's turn. Without so much as budging an inch, he said, "Twenty-two thousand dollars."
The superintendent gasped in horror, and furiously yelled, "One guy gave me an estimate for $3000, and another said $2000! How the hell did you come up with $22,000???"
"Easy," said the Chicago contractor. "Ten thousand for you, ten thousand for me, and we hire the guy from Atlanta."
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
which is why Chicago will have a Midway-O'Hare line before the 2nd Ave Sub is built
Heh heh. Now, there also was a contractor from New York on the zoo visit. When asked for an estimate, he said "Give me $5,000 for a study, and I'll get back to you in ten years."
10' per day doesn't sound slow to me. Dig 3 holes and put one facing each way at each hole (i.e., use 6 machines). Now you accomplish 60' per day or 20,000' per year or all 9 miles in under 2 years. I wish it could go that fast!
10 feet a day?? I don't think so. The Channel Tunnel TBMs were doing 56m on a good day. Besides, there is no fixed rate at which a TBM moves. It all depends in the geology of the area. Rates can be as high as 10m/hr and as low as .1m/hr. And those numbers aren't constant for a project, as it can change as the geology changes.
The meat of the channel was through chalk, that "white cliffs of Dover stuff, if I not mistaken. So maybe it was an easier dig and plan with the strata of chalk conviently in place.
The Japanese northern Islands tunnel was a horse or elephant of a different color, don't you agree?
avid
I found it, Rob. Its from an earlier planning study, hence the absence of 116th Street Station. However, the geology couldn't have changed that much in ~2 years.
Click Here to View
MATT-2AV
Thanks. Something like that is what I was thinking of.
"The City should just close 2nd Ave. (or sections of it) for the duration of construction. This would probably reduce construction time to 5 years or so. I lot of inconvience for a short time is greater than a fair amount of inconvience for a long long time."
Not necessarily.
You have to conceptualize the big picture here. There are businesses, etc. that could be hurt by long term, substantial surface ROW closures.
Moreover, you also need to realize that Second Avenue is a major motor vehicle corridor. Now the automobile isn't a topic of this board, and for some the bane of our existence, but closing major portions of the road for any duration creates more problems than it solves.
As a Second Avenue resident, I can tell you what happens to York, Park, Lexington, the FDR, and Fifth when a part of the Street is closed.
Of course, there will have to be some surface closures, be these should be kept to a minimum even if it means waiting a little while longer for our subway.
MATT-2AV
You have to conceptualize the big picture here. There are businesses, etc. that could be hurt by long term, substantial surface ROW closures.
Moreover, you also need to realize that Second Avenue is a major motor vehicle corridor. Now the automobile isn't a topic of this board, and for some the bane of our existence, but closing major portions of the road for any duration creates more problems than it solves.
Look at Boston, they tried to have it both ways and they suffered all that you mentioned above, it just took 3 times as long and cost 4 times as much. It would probably be cheaper just to temporarily re-locate the bussinesses or buy them to go on a temporary hiatus. 5 years of traffic jams is better than 15 years of traffic jams.
Look at Boston, they tried to have it both ways and they suffered all that you mentioned above
Not a particularly apt comparison. In Boston, not only were they burying a complete Interstate highway of 8 to 12 lanes, complete with on/off ramps and ventilation (subways are simple by comparison!) but they also had to keep the existing elevated interstate above it operating.
The subway analogy to this would be the Herald Square construction, where the IND was built through the existing BMT and PATH maze while the Sixth Avenue El rumbled overhead.
And in Boston they also threw in a third harbor tunnel.
Boston did do something interesting with the Orange Line. They located the new line in an open ditch, so that they saved $$$ otherwise needed to create a subway roof. Tunnels are short and needed only to pass under crossing streets.
Not much different from parts of the Brighton or Sea Beach. And like the Sea Beach--next to a mainline RR. Not too likely in Manhattan this century.
No place in Manhattan to do it.
"Look at Boston, they tried to have it both ways and they suffered all that you mentioned above, it just took 3 times as long and cost 4 times as much."
I am well aware of the Botson debacle, and how cost overruns cast such a negative image on large construction projects.
However, you are really comparing apples and oranges here.
In Boston, like almost a dozen or so double-decker lanes of traffick needed to be burried relatively close to the surface complete with entrance and exit ramps. Subway and rail tunneling is relatively simple by comparison.
A more appropriate example may be to look at other recent (post 1965 or so) subway construction around the country, such as the Los Angeles Red Line and the 63rd Street line, to name but a few.
I'm not saying there won't be cost overruns, but surface disruptions will be less than Boston,
MATT-2AV
My point was that Boston ran into trouble by trying to keep the old freeway open while building the new one. They should have just bitten the bullet and closed the central artery down for the duration of the construction project.
They should have just bitten the bullet and closed the central artery down for the duration of the construction project.
That's like saying close down the entire W 4th St complex for the duration. That chunk of interstate not only is the main artery up the coast, but also connects in another interstate whose number I forget.
There would just be no place for the traffic to go, and the main concern was semis. Routing a few thousand semis a day onto the 18th century street plan of Boston would just have been impossible.
That's like saying close down the entire W 4th St complex for the duration. That chunk of interstate not only is the main artery up the coast, but also connects in another interstate whose number I forget.
The main costal artery, I-95, is routes around boston. I-93 goes into Boston. People would have learned to use I-95 as a bypass.
That may be fine for Boston, but you just can't draw a connection here with regards to their sequencing and phasing of construction. Now if you want to draw a connection with cost overruns, well, that's another matter,
MATT-2AV
>>>They should have just bitten the bullet and closed the central artery down for the duration of the construction project.<<<
Easy to say, if you don't live there.
Peace,
ANDEE
The portion of the 63rd Street Line under Central Park and LA's Metro Red Line section under MacArthur Park may be compared. The TA suffered from the City's budget problems and delays, but the construction itself was solid, with every last boulder in Central Park being restored.
The lake at MacArthur Park was drained, and the whole park was screwed up for the longest time while Tutor Saliba tried to figure out what to do about incompetently poured concrete, bad concrete, etc. etc. A royal screw-up, fixed eventually. People in NY were inconvenienced, but NYCTA did a much better job on all levels than RTD did in LA.
Unfortunately on the east side the downtown avenues are already more congested than the uptown, partly because Lex is narrower than 3rd and 2nd is narrower than 1st, and 5th is just a mess.
Banning traffic on 2nd ave would be great, but the economic impact would unfortunately be immense. What do you say to the thousands of store owners whose cost of each delivery goes up by $100 to compensate for the longer delivery times?
The plan has been changed from "Cut & Cover" to tunneling. Tunneling has the advantage of getting under all the lines in the street (water, gas, elect, phone), but increases the cost.
I don't think this is anything more then another study. Pataki & Bloomberg are already beating the empty pockets drum & we know the MTA has a BIG hole in it's budget, so without a bond issue the STUBway ain't going to happen.
Mr rt__:^)
I'd really love to see the second avenue subway built just as much as anyone else here, but holy shit.....12 billion dollar estimate?? i dont think they can justify that great expense on this line. As much as I think subways should come first, i think that money should be spent to replace the Gowanus expressway first. Its a more pressing issue.
holy shit.....12 billion dollar estimate?? i dont think they can justify that great expense on this line.
How do you justify? As compared to what? Adding more trains to existing lines? Building stadiums? Buying B-2 bombers? Whatever justifications were needed happened long ago. Now it's a question of political power.
As much as I think subways should come first, i think that money should be spent to replace the Gowanus expressway first. Its a more pressing issue.
To who? Two different audiences. Transit riders and east-side Manhattanites want the subway. Drivers and truckers want a better Gowanus, and the neighborhood wants a buried Gowanus (see RPA study on feasibility of burying it).
And I'm sure some in Gowanus would like to bury the rest of the city.
:0)
(holy shit.....12 billion dollar estimate?? i dont think they can justify that great expense on this line. )
They are counting on federal funding.
I just came back from the Transportation Research Board conference in Washington DC. The TA sent me down there. The Federal Transit Agency (FTA) is trying to get the Republican Congress and President to reauthorize any spending for transit at all, in the face of budget deficits and cuts. The cost of the Second Avenue and other NY area projects such as LIRR to GCT is just about equal to many, many years of FTA "new starts" funding. At current funding, if we get our projects the rest of the country will get nothing.
But that's not where they are going. They want to spread it around to congressional districts to ensure reauthorization. Some rural district where no one will ride is more likely to get a new subway than NYC.
Look at the bright side. I'm sure that somewhere on the other side of Washington, the Department of Agriculture was trying to come up with a way to spread money around to ensure the reauthorization of agricultural subsidies. So we won't get the Second Avenue Subway. But I might get federal subsidies for my backyard vegtable garden in Brooklyn.
We'll get our infrastructure improvements when all federal infrastructure funding -- road, transit, water project, etc. -- is eliminated. Then well fund what really matters locally, instead of sending money to Washington and begging for some of it back.
We'll get our infrastructure improvements when all federal infrastructure funding -- road, transit, water project, etc. -- is eliminated. Then well fund what really matters locally, instead of sending money to Washington and begging for some of it back.
Absolutely. How much longer do you think it will be before we start seeing more toll roads in the area? I'd guess that within ten years, E-ZPass will be standard equipment, at least for cars registered in New York, the now-free East River bridges will be tolled. The next step is the parkways and expressways. Ideally, I'd like to see ubiquitous electronic tolling, on all streets, with direct user fees applied to all who choose to drive (and park) on the city's streets, with all funding coming from the tolls.
If the good people of Idaho want a new highway (or, for that matter, a new light rail line), that's very nice, but why should we New Yorkers be paying for it?
On a related topic, here's an interesting story from Wednesday's San Francisco Chronicle about the federal government cutting off $716 million in funding for all highway and mass transit projects in the Bay Area until they develop a plan that falls within Federal Clean Air Act standards.
While the cuts also hit some planned rail projects, the basic idea seems to be to force the Bay Area pols to eventually go more towards mass transit in order to get their funding, and the fact that this is a Republican administration telling the heavily-Democratic area of San Francisco-Oakland to do this (though the demands started under the Clinton Administration) gives the story a slightly man-bites-dog twist to it. Wonder if they plan to do the same thing in other areas, like New York?
(While the cuts also hit some planned rail projects, the basic idea seems to be to force the Bay Area pols to eventually go more towards mass transit in order to get their funding)
The basic idea seems to be cutting off funds to areas that vote Democratic. Mass transit projects were cut, not just roads, and Bush doesn't want any restrictions on burning oil. Funds were not cut off to Houston. New York could be next.
Just another move to redistribute money to the sunbelt, with the added political twist of blaming the environmentalists (not that they are above blame).
Shrub and his Enron buttbuddies have REPEATEDLY screwed New York ... you can see it in the state budget that will never balance. Nice to know Texas and Kentucky are getting more mass transit though.
Yeh replace it with a Subway Line ;)
Stops would be at 116th, 106th, 96th, 86th, 72nd, 54th-57th, 42nd, 34th, 23rd, 14th, Houston and Grand Sts.,
Does the fact that it will stop at Grand mean they have decided not to use the Nassau Subway? Or can it swing around to Canal on the JMZ after stopping at Grand?
You couls swing around to Canal after Grand, but the article also referred to stops at Chatham Square and 2 more stops further south to be decided later. This definitely looks like a Water St route.
They could add a connector to the Nassau line at Delancey for not much extra money. This was mentioned in the article as a possible alternative, not as an additional option.
So, Crain's NY Business News has an article on the plans for the new 7 WTC and says they're almost done.
Re/an earlier thread, "SOM architect David Childs says the building's design calls for a structure that will be a significant improvement on the original [1987] 7 WTC. It will have taller ceilings ... make greater use of Greenwich Street, which was blocked off by the WTC complex: Plans call for an entrance and a glass lobby at the end of the street, integrating the building better with the neighborhood at street level. The building will be slightly taller than the original 7 WTC but have about the same amount of floor space, about 2 million square feet."
Damnit. There goes any hope of a restored Greenwich Street. At best, even if they lay Greenwich back over the WTC site, it'll have a corner of this new building sticking into it with great north and south views along the street corridor from the lobby.
GodDAMNit.
Though I can't say I'm surprised. This is why the city should never, EVER demap streets. The resulting superplots are just too damned attractive to developers.
So looks like the IRT rebuild will be the first permanent new construction, closely followed by work on the new 7 WTC. (Wonder if they'll rename it? The whole concept of a World Trade Center is obsolete now; everything is world trade. But the name has so much resonance people may want to retain it.)
And without such development, a city dies. So what planet are you from?
-Hank
And without such development, a city dies. So what planet are you from?
I'm from NYC. And, Hank, had you read any of the lengthy earlier thread on 7 WTC, you wouldn't have made this comment/attack.
I am for development. I am much more for *good* development. And I am for development that makes the surroundings better and more desirable. The WTC complex, including the previous 7 WTC, was by and large NOT good development, by which I mean: integrated into its neighborhood, a place that not only tourists but neighbors voluntarily go to spend time, and one that has a mix of uses so that people are there outside office hours.
One way to achieve some of these goals is to tie new development into the existing street grid, which is really what defines Manhattan. The WTC landed like a spaceship and obliterated a large part of the pre-existing grid. Streets are the organizing principle through which people in a dense urban area locate themselves. The WTC complex was pretty disorienting to get around, especially underground where you couldn't see the Twin Towers to locate yourself.
Most of the growing number of proposals for redesign and rebuilding include restoration of at least some of the street axes, whether or not they have vehicle traffic on them. That's why I mourn the lost opportunity to restore that little demapped portion of Greenwich.
So much of the street grid would YOU wanna demap to allow untrammeled development, huh?
> and one that has a mix of uses so that people
> are there outside office hours.
Maybe the office buildings don't have many people in them but I can't remember ever seeing a time, off hours, where the WTC concourse was not teeming with people. During "reasonable" off hours, of course. Like till midnight on weekdays and 8am-midnight on weekends.
The lower level concourse was, in recent years, a defacto mall which drew people from outside the area. I was once there on a Sunday, most offices were closed, and it was quite busy.
The lower level concourse was, in recent years, a defacto mall which drew people from outside the area. I was once there on a Sunday, most offices were closed, and it was quite busy.
True, but it did nothing for street life or the area around it. Some of that activity can be translated to surrounding streets -- especially now that Hudson River Park and Battery Park City are so popular -- rather than kept out of sight.
I loved that concourse mall. I did all my 2000 Christmas shopping while at work, and I was never bothered by bad weather. In fact, some days I never went outsideagain after I entered the subway system in the AM until I exited the system in the PM.
>>>>I loved that concourse mall. I did all my 2000 Christmas shopping while at work, and I was never
bothered by bad weather. In fact, some days I never went outsideagain after I entered the subway
system in the AM until I exited the system in the PM. <<<
True enough...in bad weather you could travel from Flushing to a lot of stores in lower Manhattan and never step outside (LIRR to Penn, #1 to Cortlandt) . I did that a lot.
I do feel the waterfront should be better integrated with whatever goes up there whether that involves rebuilding the streets or not.
In NYC though, once streets are removed, they never go back, sort of like RR lines are never reactivated.
www.forgotten-ny.com
BTW The Flushing Mall has opened near Prince and 39th, just west of the Sheraton hotel, it's pretty nice. No, it's not the size of the WTC mall but it's pretty neat!
I concur. In college I used to take the 1 train to Cortland Street to pick up the Path to Pavonia-Newport to go to the mall (Tax free shopping on clothes in Jersey- woohoo!) on the weekends, it it was quite busy. It would also be relatively busy when my dad would get off his night shift at 12:30am as a janitor to take the E train home. I've been in the underground mall pretty much any day of the week, any hour of the day (Except 2:00 am-6:00am) and always managed to see an unexpectedly high number of people there.
On a somewhat unrelated note, has anyone here ever watched the lobby of the WTC towers on a weekday morning before 9:00am or at quitting time? It was an ordered chaos- and yet everyone knew exactly which way to walk so as to not interfere and proceed unimpeded... and every so often, you'd watch a visitor or a tourist muck up the whole works. Absoultely amazing.
Used to be fun walking across the open area where the PATH lets out from 5 WTC towards 2 WTC, especially when a train was emptying out, with great masses of people criss-crossing one another with no collisions.
The WTC complex, including the previous 7 WTC, was by and large NOT good development, by which I mean: integrated into its neighborhood, a place that not only tourists but neighbors voluntarily go to spend time, and one that has a mix of uses so that people are there outside office hours.
Have you ever heard of something called zoning? Zoning put the various human activities (residential, bussiness, retail, industrial) into seperate regions so that the seperate needs of each won't impact on the others. If you get people living at the WTC site they will soon be complaining that the malls are too loud. Malls and residents might protest expansion by bussinesses. Mixed use is what leads to NIMBYism. If we seperate the uses everyone can do what they want and not piss everyone else off. Furthermore, if you design an office complex that is always crowded who on earth would want to work there? They might so somewhere where they have the option to leave/arrive late/early and not have to deal w/ crowds.
One way to achieve some of these goals is to tie new development into the existing street grid, which is really what defines Manhattan.
The Manhattan street grid is TOO SMALL. Steets should be no smaller than 1/10th of a mile appart. NYC streets are 1/20th. The result is insufficient space for construction.
Most of the growing number of proposals for redesign and rebuilding include restoration of at least some of the street axes, whether or not they have vehicle traffic on them. That's why I mourn the lost opportunity to restore that little demapped portion of Greenwich.
Streets are a thing of the past. People should use specially designed pedestrian concourses. This way vehicles and people need not fight for the same space. This system works in philly.
If we seperate the uses everyone can do what they want and not piss everyone else off.
This philosophy is what caused suburban sprawl. Seprating everything means that people have to travel to do anything they want. The result of this is all the traffic congestion clogging the nations roads. Mixed use is far superior and is making a come back after a long slumber since the 50s.
Suburban sprall is a result of poor city planning. Suburbs should be like mini-cities, with a core of retail and bussinesses, grid streets and a trainst connection to the urb that they are sub of.
You're right. Suburbs should be like you say. I made a post about that back in the summer. But remember that planning begins with zoning. And good zoning does not segregate commercial from residential. The central core would likey have way more commercial than residential, but that does not mean you can't have commercial within the residential where it exists.
You know how people will move in next to a railroad/factory and then bitch about the noise (lawsuits etc.) even though the RR was there first? Well imagine if residents and the industry got there at the same time. Bye bye industry and with it goes your whole planned community.
I never said Industry should be mixed with residential, factories and similiar SHOULD be segregated.
Mike: You and I have gone through this before. Clearly you have violent disagreements with the evolution of what many people consider to be sound urban planning. I'd be curious to know where you live now?
If you get people living at the WTC site
Something like 10,000 people *already* live in Battery Park City, which is about a 3-minute walk from where the WTC used to be. Remember?
They live in a segrigated residential area that is built on what is basically a pier/peninsula into the Hudson. While they would be better off in Bayone it still prooves my point.
prooves my point.
Do you have proff?
We know that the verb “to prove” and its derivatives, cause problems for some of the posters here. Please, leave well-enough alone!
John
The Manhattan street grid of 1/20 mile is not too small at all. It is perfect for the 4-12 story residential buildings that still make up much of the island. It's hard to build those buildings more than 60' deep and still provide reasonable light.
It is also ample for a large office building. A west midtown block is 900'x200' of buildable space, allowing a 12 story office building to be over 2 million square feet! Considering it was thought out in 1800 or so, it has served us very well.
However, the street grid around the WTC is probably from 1680 (give or take). It is admittedly too small for good office buildings (I always find the needle-like skyscraper on Pine St to be pretty amazing, but it doesn't allow for much space per floor).
So obviously we don't want to see a new WTC where every original street is restored and repoened to vehicles. But a few straight-through pedestrian malls would be nice.
I wouldn't particularly want to see Greenwich Street back with cars on it. This article does leaves open the possibility that there would be a pedestrian mall through the building on the route that Greenwich St used to take. That would be nice, though admittedly not promised by the article.
A pedestrian mall is better. It's rainproof, the old building had no entrance to speak of at the Barclay Street side.
Oh, and trapezoid is a better shape for a building's base than parallelogram.
Dude, I began examining the area after your last post, and I can't agree with you. As Jersey Mike said deeper in somewhere, the blocks are too damn small.
Take a look at this satellite photo (warning, 2MB)
If Greenwich was not demapped, it wouldn't leave any amount of worthwhile space between it and West Broadway, and a rather small block between it and the Barclay-Vesey Building. That street just had to go.
And even if you let it through, would you have it intersect with West Broadway or not? The Federal Building (I think thats what it said on its facade) pushes West Broadway pretty close to where a straight line projection of Greenwich leads. If you do, I fear the place will be less pedestrian friendly than the old West Broadway terminal intersection was. I never liked non-right angle avenue intersections with the bits and pieces of triangle blocks. If you don't intersect them, then that turn kills the great street corridor views with the twist that is required.
Its a low volume street anyway. And I think it gives the immediate area a nice calm feeling. With all the schools and residential structures in the area, I think being set off from the hectic commercial district is fine. That one block on Chambers between Greenwich and West Broadway has a wonderful buffering effect on the city.
I began examining the area after your last post, and I can't agree with you. ... the blocks are too damn small.
Oh, I'm not suggesting putting back all 14 little tiny blocks. But there needs to be some kind of rectilinear organization to the former-WTC superblock.
If Greenwich was not demapped, it wouldn't leave any amount of worthwhile space between it and West Broadway, and a rather small block between it and the Barclay-Vesey Building. That street just had to go.
West Broadway met Greenwich in a triangle at Vesey before 7 WTC was built, so it's not relevant. I'm not proposing putting it back.
And yeah, the area between Greenwich and Church is wedge-shaped (narrower at the south). That's fixable if you run Greenwich slightly to the west at its south end (moving it off the roof of the IRT). But I'd settle for restoration of Washington Street instead, though its southern end is just a stub rather than the major traffic artery that Greenwich is.
Most important, though, are east-west connectors. From the north, you used to have Fulton, Dey and Cortlandt (with Vesey on the north and Liberty on the south as the WTC boundaries). At minimum one, but preferably two or even three (unlikely) should be restored. They'll greatly facilitate travel to/from the WFC and BPC, finally connecting them into the rest of downtown.
Remember, looking west from Church Street at many points, you had no idea that WFC was there. The twin towers and hotel presented a solid wall. That's what I'm hoping they solve.
Guilford Rail System’s track between Portland, Maine, and Plaistow, N.H., is safe for 79-mph Amtrak operation, according to an analysis of test data by the Transportation Technology Center.
...
The trains entered service last month, running at 60 mph over the 78 miles of Guilford trackage on the 114-mile route...
But the TTC analysis of the test data said that, aside from 166 feet of track, the line meets the standards for rail flex.
from Trains magazine online, registration needed to access article
I posted that news 3 days ago.
I've been busy.
Read my Cleveland Trip report. BTW I got my new digital camera so now you have some competition :-p BTW, can you turn the flash on yours off? What are the best batteries to use?
I have to turn the flash on by opening a hinged gizmo. My camera uses special super-dooper batteries that I never heard of. The highest quality regular batteries are recommended for use only in an emergency, and only briefly. I've gotten 80 pics out of one pair of batteries (I have 2 pairs and a charger, that came with the camera), without using flash. Adjusting optical zoom and looking at recent pics in the monitor will use up the charge, too. I did both of those when I got the 80 pix.
Mine uses either 4 AA Alkiline or two of these special Li batteries that that can fit a double AA slot. The camera came w/ 4 AA batteries so I would assume they are OK to use. Did you have to buy your batteries/charger or did they come w/ the camera? My flash is of the always on type and there is a flash menu, but I do not believe there is a way to turn them off completely. This is a pain in the ass if not for having to cover the flash, but for the wasted energy.
If I recall correctly, what you posted was that Amtrak was seeking approval for 79 mph operation. What he posted was the test results showing that the ROW passed muster.
Good news regardless. Deserved repetition, so more railfans can be aware of it.
If I recall correctly, what you posted was that Amtrak was seeking approval for 79 mph operation.
Yes, he posted that, but he also posted TTC Report Claims Amtrak Downeaste Good For 79 MPH, which apparently we both missed. I guess the title wasn't eye-catching enough.
I've seen that many redbirds are mixed with R29s and R33s etc coupled together. However, while waiting for a F train at East Broadway, an A train was diverted onto the F line. Seeing an R38 as the lead car and the first few didn't surprise me, but what did was the last five cars were all R32 Brightliners. I was on car 3493 but the lead car was 41XX. I don't ride the A, C line often, but is this common?
I've seen it myself, too...even though it was like....4 years or so ago....
Stuart, RLine86Man
R32s are mixed with R38s sometimes on the (A) and (C). I've seen it before. Also R40Ms are regularly mixed with R42s on the Eastern Division lines. R68's can also be mixed with R68As, if indeed those count as different car classes.
:-) Andrew
I thought 68's and 68A's weren't mixed because of different braking?
I've seen even stranger train mixing. During the Williamsburg Bridge reonstrution bak in 1998, I saw a 10-car train: four R42's and six R32's!
There's a picture on this site with an R40 slant on the same train as an R38, and there's even one of an R42 and an R10 on an A train. That's the strangest!
I've seen crazier, but it was in the yard. As I was heading towards 86th St from CI on the N (when it went to CI), I remember this one time seeing 2 R32s, 2 R68s, and 2 R40s moving through the yard. Quite interesting.
I used to see R-32s mixed with R-42s on D trains back in the smorgasbord train era. It's not done all that often anymore. All SMEE cars could operate together. On the IRT, it was common practice for years.
R142 and R142A are compatible.
NOT completely ... I recall some testing was done with lashups of both carbodies and they bucked and fought one another. Granted, not a MAJOR incompatibility but it seemed sufficient that they probably won't get mixed unless there's some SERIOUS desperation ...
They are not compatible enough to run in revenue service together. They have different software and braking pressures. They are only supposed to be moved together in yards when necessary.
Shawn.
Then you have the R-44s and R-46s, which are not compatible with each other.
R68's can also be mixed with R68As, if indeed those count as different car classes.
How do you tell the difference between them?
There are many differences (at least 15 minor differences) but the easiest way is the car numbers, 68s begin with 2 and 68As begin with 5.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's the easiest if you have that sort of memory. I don't, so I resort to other cues.
The most obvious is the (transverse) cab door: it swings on the R-68 and it slides on the R-68A (complete with cutout notch for the handle). Somewhat less obvious, and a bit difficult to explain (but if you see it, you'll understand), is the joint between the vertical rail on either side each side door and the lower horizontal rail -- it's seamless on the R-68A. There are other differences but I just don't see them.
Or you can cheat. The R-68A never shows up on the B or D (in their current forms). The R-68A very rarely shows up on the circle-Q (I believe there's one assigned in the afternoon rush, and all others are R-68). The R-68A somewhat rarely shows up on the N (none are assigned but the N will take anything it gets). The R-68A always shows up on the W (I don't think I've seen anything but).
68A's on the Q does happen frequently. August 27, 2001 there were about 4 trainsets of R68A's running there along with the 68's. The Q diamond gets 1 to about 2 during the rush hours. The W always has them, except 1 8 car set does run there like the B had. The N has the 68A's run there too, I rode on one during the Holidays (lead car #5124), and even had the black-speckaled floors.
I thought the circle-Q had only one assigned R-68A trainset, and that only in the afternoon. Either I'm misremembering or the car assignments are not being strictly followed (no great surprise in either case). I've never ridden an R-68A on the Q.
I've never seen (personally) an R-68 or R-68A on the diamond-Q. I once thought I was boarding one, northbound at 42, in an attempt to catch an N/R/W that I had just missed, but we pulled in on the southbound track and all the other signs had circles, so I assume the bulkhead sign was set wrong.
I find more R-68A's than R-68's on the N, even though no R-68A's are supposed to be on the N at all. The one I rode on Monday had some black floors and some brown floors.
common? I see something like that at least 2 times in a week. AT LEAST.
It's not unusual to find an R32 - 38 (C) train. Usually the R38 cars lead the train while the R32's are in the rear. I've only seen the mixups on an (A) train a couple of times.
So have I. At least they blend together stylistically. On the IRT, the R-12s and R-14s used to stick out like sore thumbs in a mixed consist.
yea thats true with the R38s on the downtown Cs usually. But headed uptown u see R32s on the C and R38s on the tail especially during the eve rush hour. Its hard to tell a C from a E until ur up close
Usually the R38 cars lead the train while the R32's are in the rear.
Wouldn't that change after the train relays?
Yes it would. I rode on an R-32/38 A train once with 8 R-32s and a pair of R-38s tacked onto the Manhattan-bound end.
>>>...but what did was the last five cars were all R32 Brightliners<<<
That would surprise me too! Since the r32s are married pairs it could not be 5 cars it would have to be 4 or 6.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're probably right. I was standing at the end of the platform and you know how windy it is at East Broadway with the trains coming out of the Tunnel. I just thought it would be R38s all the way, so I didn't really count the cars.
The mixed sets I've come across are usually 4+6 of either R/32 and R/38's. Either could be the dominant number.
It's the rare GE R/32 that is found in a 2+6 or 2+8 mix of cars with the R/38s in the majority.
I still have hopes for a marriage between cousins, Slant R/40s and r/40Ms . If it's only looks and not systems that differ.
Speaking of GE R/32s, are they all on the road now? No more Canibilization?
Are the R/110Bs earning their keep as well?
avid
The main reason why I loved the Redbirds was that they were simple mechanically. The more complicated they make the machinery, the easier it becomes to gum up the works.
Well then, maybe you should try finding a nice used Pacer to drive, because today's cars are pretty complex. You might also want to try finding an airline that flies with propeller planes, because most jet aircraft is mechanically complex as well. And watch out for them brand-new Pentium 4 computers. Way more complex than good ol' reliable Coomdore 64.
Very well said.
I love how people's fear of change/technology/the future/etc. gets translated into r142 hatred.
MATT-2AV
Hey, it happens in EVERY aspect of society when it comes to something we techies like to call "PROGRESS" :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The commodore 64's a pretty complicated piece of machinery. It can do colour and graphics. Give the guy a Commodore PET instead, he'll appreciate the sheer simplicity of the green-on-black text only display.
-Robert King
I don't want the Pacer, but my cousin's '68 Impala was more fun and easier to fix than my '99 Camry will ever be. It was absolutely bulletproof and reliable.
...my cousin's '68 Impala was more fun and easier to fix than my '99 Camry will ever be.
Not that I'm any fan of Toyota or imported cars in general (our family fleet consists of four Fords), but I have to believe that your Camry will need a lot less fixing than the Impala. I owned a 1968 Caprice Estate with the hi-po 327 (375 hp, back when they rated them on a test stand with no exhaust or accessories - the practical equivalent of about 200 hp by modern methods, I believe; my Caprice was one of only 41 built with that motor). I had the motor rebuilt around 80K and in general it spent at least one day a month in the shop during the 12 months / 25K miles I owned it. It was wrecked (at 94K) when a woman in a Corona wagon ran a red light at 60 mph; the fellow I sold it to rebuilt it a few years later and last I saw it (in the mid-'90s) it looked VERY nice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20020118/1010701.asp
I guess by law they are required to hold public hearing just for the heck of it. Then they go ahead and make the cut no matter what the public wants.
I remember watching a televised public hearing regarding the NYC Subway fare. The last person was Jack May (a fan by hobby and by profession) who accuse Dr. Ronan and the MYA board of changing the turnstyle during the hearing for the new tokens. Dr. Ronan did not say much, but the fare did go up after the "Public Hearing".
I remember that hearing...it was also about discontinuing the MTA Passes for students in NYC...and obviously they didn't do that, although they did change it to a form of Metrocard (but that was WAY after I finished :-D )
Stuart, RLine86Man
Quite a different attitude than they had in the 80's when they solved a budget crisis by operating until the money ran out and shut down.
The shut down lasted a day or two when they got their required funding.
Mitch,
The r142's had their flaws, and simple vent holes will prevent an explosion like this from happening again. The fact is that the R142s are a BIG HIT w/ riders and many subtalkers thanks to its technology that is not found on the rusted, corroded (yet I'll admit nostolgic) redbirds. -Nick
...simple vent holes will prevent an explosion like this from happening again.
NO!!! If the batteries are generating a steady stream of hydrogen and oxygen, due to overcharging at a high rate, then contact of the hydrogen with a spark will cause this mixture to ignite. The flame will follow the fuel source back to the battery case as well as igniting anything combustible that the gas path may have come in contact with. Any exposed electrical contact with voltage in excess of 48 volts is deemed capable of producing such a spark, according to the National Electrical Code.
I don't know, if there would be any safe way to vent the hydrogen gas in a tunnel. However, in open atmosphere, an exhaust pipe would be needed to make sure that the hydrogen and oxygen gases were vented clear of any spark or heat source. Moreover, this pipe would have to equipped with a flashback arrester to insure that if the gas did ignite, the fire would be cut off from the fuel source.
I seriously doubt the explosion was H/O directly related. CI Peter
I seriously doubt the explosion was H/O directly related.
Peter-
What do you think it was? Charging?
Mark
Charging. We heard of no evidence of any metallic objects left behind. Everyone has worked with the nicad cells for years without incident....now the PA rings everyday with reminders to wear protective safety equipment. One thing that has been discovered in inspection: loose or undertight battery buss nuts. Nutz. CI Peter
It's the technology, you think? Which element of the technology do you think they like?
Except for the minor detail that they're old (and all that comes with that), the Redbirds are much better from the usability standpoint.
Several weeks ago there were two Ebay auctions for switch keys that were supposedly from the NYC subway system. One was marked NYRT, and the other BMT.
Both keys looked to have been well used, at least from the picture with each auction. They had the same appearance as the brass keys that used to be used on the freight railroads to unlock switchlocks.
I had always assumed that all track switches were controlled from the towers on the subway system.
Was there ever a time that the subway system really did use keys, and actually have to manually throw switches, if not on the main line, perhaps in the yards?
Hi, Karl. Good question.
I think I might have an answer: is it possible that those are not switch keys in the sense of use on the actual mechanism, but the key to the LOCK on many of the switch throw arms.
Not sure, since I'm not an expert here.
BMTman
The keys seemed to be the exact same size and shape as those used on large switchlocks on the freight railroads. Those padlocks had to be unlocked and removed before the switch could be thrown. This operation was normally done by a member of the train crew, after the train movement was completed, the switch was returned to normal, and relocked.
I just can't imagine a motorman or a conductor having to do this on the subway system, even back in the old days.
If I'm right, then I wonder what these keys were used for.
Right, that's what I mean -- that went to the padlock and not any kind of mechanism.
We have padlocks on the switches on the line at Branford, but all the locks have been 'modernized' and are the common 'masterlock' type that you can get in any hardware store.
BMTman
Huh, check out the signal cases, there ain't no masterlock on them there cases. You are refering to one switch stand and those call on buttons, the signal/relay cases all have those funky signal type padlocks (not #3 Masterlocks, keyed alike).
They probably bought them to keep YOU from doing a Luciano with the PCC. Heh.
Ob. You definitely hit THAT nail on the head.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. I'm not worried about riding a gate car with Dougie up front ... not even the S curve ... but man, he'd better stay OUT of 1689 if he knows what's good for him. Nyuknyuk.
>>>I'm not worried about riding a gate car with Dougie up front ... <<<
You SHOULD be...8))
Peace,
ANDEE
Not at all ... I've actually met him in person and he's not as wild-eyed as I expected ... except on the Franklin shuttle, but that's another story. Then again, on our outing, it was Dougie, Bill Newkirk, Harry Beck, HeyPaul and Bingbong and I ... not exactly poster children for sanity. So Dougie got to become row captain without much work. :)
Kevin, Back on topic, Were you issued a 2 & 1/4" brass switch key when you worked for the TA so many years ago?
Yep ... along with a 3 inch plunger and of course the fabled "butt plug" ... on a nice brass hoop chain as well.
That 2 & 1/4" long brass switch key, where did you use it?
You certainly did not have to unlock switchlocks on track switches, did you?
Not once ... like several of the issued keys, you had them in case you needed them but they never went into a hole. On my chain there was even an old BMT "coasting key" that I never knew WHAT it went to. But the old S key was regularly used. Go figger. :)
A coasting key _may_ have been one used by the dispatcher to
reset the coasting clock, which was present on many BRT/BMT
cars.
There were a bunch of keys on the standard brass chain back then, including lavatory keys, signal box keys, phone box keys, various door keys, and several unknowns. But yeah, there was a coasting key on there too ... didn't know WHAT it was until I saw a picture of that key on Joekorner ... and of course the magic butt plug. In fact, seeing that on Joe's place was what triggered all the memories in the first place. Been a LONG time. :)
Do you happen to have the URL? I'd like to see this "coasting
key"
Your wish is my command it is, it is ... ah ah ah ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/keys/index.html
You might enjoy this page as well:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/handles/index.html
I could sure use a set now.... I need them for a Bird I have locked away in a barn. Heh.
-Stef
Dang ... any motorperson worth their paddle knows how to do it with a short shank screwdriver. The keys were MERELY a formality. :)
???
A screwdriver? Geez, what can I do with that? Oh....... There are screwjobs out there. Lol.
This should be labeled Selkirk's tips and tactics on how to operate without keys:)
-Stef
Heh. Do you need keys to drive a car? Of course not ... only a matter of collecting the right bits of metal and knowing how to whittle them into what ya need. :)
But when I was on company property, I did laze out and use the proper implements. Wigs was watching. Heh.
Oh so it is was I thought, a coasting clock key. The clocks
are pretty rare, btw. The R-types up to R6, I think, had them,
so did the IRT cars up to the 1917 Lo-V order, I think the BMT
standards too. The use was discontinued as power got cheaper.
Yep ... pretty much what I gathered as well ... but I had that and a few other weirdies on the chain I was issued. It was such an unusual shape, the minute I saw it over at Joe's place I was amused. Thirty years later, FINALLY an explanation. :)
I saw those auctions, also. Those keys were regulation Adlake switch keys. In Chicago, the gater on closed CTA stations are locked with good old Adlake locks marked CTA.
Looks like the core group has come togather, here's the plan so far:
- Pacific St, Brooklyn: I'll be on the LIRR scheduled to arrive at 8:36, so 8:45-9 I'll be meeting up with the group. We'll go down to 36th, then walk to NY Cross Harbor.
- TA Museum at Grand Central Station: We'll be there about noon, probally do lunch somewhere, come back to museun, then walk to Red Caboose (maybe, maybe not), then head uptown via #5 to Dyre Ave. On the way back we'll stop at 180th to walk around, then catch another train south.
- Depending on the lateness of the day & the condition of our feet we may do #6 to Pelham or #2 to 241st (neither of which I've done yet)
Fare: One F-U-N P-A-S-S
Equipment: Railfan Window equiped, but of course !
If you are diffenately coming, you can reply to me directly, so we can look out for you. If you don't have that foamers kind of look (most of us do), then a mass transit article of clothing will help us meet up, I'll have my "Subway Series" hat on.
Mr rt__:^)
Is Monday regular service patterns?
Well, I can't speak on the LIRR or MNRR, but NYCT always runs weekday service on holidays like these.
Yes, subways are on a normal weekday schedule. MLK day is one of my favorite railfaning days (no work, less crowding, no schoolkids).
LIB should run on a regular schedule too. Will LIRR charge peak fares or waive them?
LIB should run on a regular schedule too. Will LIRR charge peak fares or waive them?
They're charging peak. As far as I know, peak fares are charged during peak hours whenever the LIRR is running on a normal weekday schedule.
MLK is one of the last days for a while where I'm off and everything's on a regular weekday schedule. Next are Passover and Good Friday, March 28 and 29 respectively. Other benefits are suspension of alternate side, affording more parking by subway stations, and generally less crowding.
The fall's much better for weekday holidays, what with Columbus, Election, Vets, the day after Thanksgiving (although shopping crowds can be a problem) and the high holy days- if they fall during the week. Unfortunately, Rosh Hoshana 2002 falls over a weekend, but we do get the following monday for Yom Kippur.
The majors- New Years', Memorial, the Fourth, Labor, Thanksgiving and Christmas are for all intents and purposes Sundays from a service standpoint.
In civil service the pay may be lacking, but the liberal holiday policy kinda makes up for it.
I will try to make the trip, or at least hook up at Grand Central if I can.
The agency I work for this year has 21 holidays (counting election day as a floater). >G<...
Next year there are fewer since one jewish holiday of note is on the weekend.
MNRR is running a weekend schedule on Monday, meaning off-peak fares. However, there are a few trains that have been added to this schedule, check your local station brochures for further info. Not sure if I will make it just yet, but I will definitely try to! -Nick
LIRR is regular weekday service - peak fares apply in AM westbound and PM eastbound.
I was afraid of that, at least there's no GOs ... according to the message on the phone line.
For those coming to the first part of the trip ... L-O-O-K out for all the changes as a result of the V & W, i.e. don't use an old map and ASSUME that train still runs, e.g. "B", "D", "3".
Mr rt__:^)
I appreciate the fact that you planned a trip to celebrate my wedding anniversary, but I'll be out of town (with my wife).
Darn! I'm going to be away on Monday. I guess I'll have to wait to see you and the other "usual suspects" again at a later date.
I resemble that remark < G >, as does the BMTman.
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
OK a weekday trip, that I can do since Sunday schedule at LIB is real frustrating! Sounds good, and I'll be there unless there's a snowstorm, wearing my Detroit Diesel cap (I know it's a bus thang)
John, I have a LIB cap that my daughter bought me for my birthday and where it at this depot just to see if anyone notices < G >
Mr rt__:^)
I might try to come if possible. Please note that you might see me wearing my black hood. Since few people wear it you probably won't miss me. If you can please tell me the routes which you might take because it is entirely possible I might meet you part way through. I might try to hook up at Grand Central or near that vicinity.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, refer to my original post, i.e. we'll probaly stop by the TA Museum twice, first about noon, when we arrive, 2nd after lunch at a fast food place, so some where about 12:30-12:45 will be your last chance to catch up with us.
The BMTman wants to go to the Red Caboose, we'll probally go there after lunch.
Mr rt__:^)
That sounds good. Please tell anyone if they get a little concerned about my hood I'm must wear it for an obvious reason.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, You'll be amoung friends. Don't call attention to yourself & folks will simply think you realy love trains, which you do < G >
Looking forward to seeing you again.
Mr rt__:^)
I'm sure that I'll look interesting to people if I'm standing in front of the railfan window of a Slant R-40 while wearing the hood.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm going to try to make it. But, I have to work on Monday so I will have to catch up with you at GCT. Hope to see you then.
Peace,
ANDEE
The BMTman says he's going to call and remind you as we pass the site of that famous wreck, actually we don't plan on going anywhere near the Franklin Shuttle < G >
Seriously, hope that you can make it.
Mr rt__:^)
SPEAKING of the Franklin Shuttle, how about THIS STORY?
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow! Looks like the Franklin Shuttle took a sidetrack to the lawless Wild, Wild, West!
Just glad no one was seriously hurt in the craziness...
BMTman
Dougie ... you mean to say the Franklin is *dangerous*??? We coulda been KILLED out there? Wowsers ... my space suit's feeling kinda tight now. Heh.
Your "spacesuit" has been "tight" for years. IMHO.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Sshhhhhh! That tight space suit managed to get many a cab "blessed" ... heh.
Yeah, sounds like your space jammies got a brown streak....;-D
Heh. Not likely ... I was born and raised in the Bronx, moved upstate where the wild west gunrack is a necessary piece of decor. I pity da fool. :)
Thank goodness that there wasn't a repeat of the Malbone St. wreck.
#3 West End Jeff
If I'm assigned to OPTO the Franklin Shuttle, I would demand the right to carry a gun. And if I had a gun that day, there would be 200 mothers with dead children in Brooklyn.
So that's your response to rowdy teenagers?
My answer is tumbrils and guillotines.
The operator felt threatened enough to run away from his train into the tunnel. "Rowdy teenagers" is hardly the phrase for a violent mob of 200 criminals attempting to attack someone. Chris R27-R30's answer, in addition to leaving 200 greiving mothers would have prevented thousands of probable future violent crimes. Whose side are you on -- the criminals or the victims (as if I had to ask)?
Alan Glick
I'm on the side of law enforcement -- we have cops so citizens don't take matters into their own hands, like they did with lynchings, pogroms, etc.
It's not a matter of lynchings or pogroms. It's self defense. There is a big difference.
Alan Glick
Pretty much
It is NYCT policy that its' employees are not allowed to carry firearms during the performance of their duties.
Thurston,
I'm in for some subfanning with you guys Monday. I emailed you, but I'm not sure if you'll get it before Monday since the address was, I assume, your work address. Where exactly will you meet in Brooklyn and what time?
Keystone Pete
I happened to go to shea today to see what was doing over at Casey Stengel( Looking for extra orions) then on the subway side I happen to notice car # 8954 catching my attention. There is 10 of these cars now sitting in corona yard. All signed up for # 5. These cars must have arrived last night/this morning.theres more to come REDBIRDS RULE!!!!!!!
I've seen Mainline R-33s on the #7 line before. I saw some Mainline R-33s in 1993.
#3 West End Jeff
Not so fast! I understand that there was a problem. The mainline R33s in the yard have the New York Air brake package. When the single car unit with the original A1 operating unit brake package was added in to make up 11 cars, voila! Stuck brakes. Stay tuned.
Car Equipment will use that as an excuse to run their 10 car sets. Bye Bye Worstinghouses!
I love it!
>>When the single car unit with the original A1 operating unit brake package was added in to make up 11 cars, voila! Stuck brakes. Stay tuned.<<
Aren't they running a set or two of mainline cars mixed with the current R-33/36 Flushing cars ? Any stuck nrake problems reported ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The mainline cars that are running on the 7 line came from the Pelham fleet, 9526-7 to 9556-7 (whatever wasn't reefed). Those cars never had new air brake packages installed. They still have the A1 unit.
Uh-ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Ok, I'm in the inevitable post college search for a job, and I'm not finding anything up in CT :( I'm starting to look in the NY area, and naturally this means the MTA also...
Basically, I'm looking for something in the mechanical engineering field, or related, and entry level. Does anyone know of anything at the T/A, or any way's to contact them? Or even better, any "in's"? I know this is marginally on topic (sorry Dave), but I'm running out of ideas here.
Any help is apreciated - email me privatly or whatever.
Thanks! :)
Job hunting sucks :(
Somebody said Car Inspector is coming up again. It's a long process to go through the DCAS, though. Be prepeared to wait.
Check the MTA website
Car inspector posting is out until mid-February. So is bus maintainer. There is nothing in the engineering field right now.
TA work is EXCELLENT work so get that application in by the deadline. We newbies just got a raise: $23.095 per hour for provisionals!!!! The 'pick list' got a little cheesy towards the end so I transferred to another crew.......June 17th is the tentative date for exams and if the elegiblity list doesn't come out by then, I'll be there for a retest. Do it guys...you will not regret the change. Good Luck to ALL. CI Peter
Ok, so how do I do this? I'm guessing there's a formal application, resume submittal, and the 'test'? I haven't kept track of this process with the T/A, though :(
NYC DCAS is online and you can download the forms to print. I never knew about this work until a radio advertisement. I heard, I did, I done, I am a Car Inspector. CI Peter
I heard from the IND history section on this website that there is an alleged station under Jamaica Ave. at 212th Street and an alleged tunnel running along 73rd Ave. to Alley Pond Park. The "tracks after Euclid Ave." thread brought up the proposed station at 76th Street and got me thinking about those other two areas in Queens again. Does anybody have additional info. regarding 73rd and 212th or any other "ghost tunnels or stations". Personally, I think they're just rumors, somebody put out to stir things up, but I welcome any comments.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure these are rumors. It takes time and costs money to build these things--especially a tunnel all the way to Alley Pond Park. (I'd love it if that were there. There's be a subways station almost on my corner. But alas!)
Maybe at those 2 places some tunnel was built. Needless to say they were never connected. Something like the 3 pieces of the 2nd Ave Subway in Manhattan that were actually built.
There is one station on Hillside Av East of 179 Street. Anyone venture a guess where?
East Williston
ditto
avid
You got it Bob!!!
I have also heard conversations and seen threads about a supposed ghost station east of 179th st. There never was any kind of resolution except to say to that though interesting to speculate about, there probably was no partially built subway structure east of 188th st. beyond the layup track's bumping block. There was also speculation about a station structure under or near Creedmore, accessible from it's property (an underground utility passage or basement), with finish tiles/station name tablet etc. which to me, seemed far fetched.
Can you please tell me about the East Williston location? If it does exist, how much of the structure was built? Why and how do you know about this location? Board of Transportation plans or documents? Elderly East Williston residents, transit workers or people in transit construction who saw it? If this was constructed at all, it would have been pre-World War II probably? This is one I'd never heard of before. Why would this structure be built separately and a couple of miles east of the main Queens Boulevard route, starting in effect in the middle of nowhere rather than as an extension of an any already existing route? Could the plans have called for starting there and building due west to meet the route already on Hillside Ave? Interesting. I'd like to hear more.
I forgot that the topic was Ghost Stations. I just named the only existing station I knew of on Hillside Ave. east of 179th St. which, of course is East Williston! Sorry for the confusion
As for anything on the Creedmoor property, that has to be some sort of urban legend.
As for anything on the Creedmoor property, that has to be some sort of urban legend.
Creedmore was served by a remnant of the Central Branch until maybe 25 or 30 years ago. Could there have been an underground station on the property?
So far as i know, this was just freight on the line. A station, especially one underground, is unlikely.
What might explain the urban legend is that the campus likely contains utility tunnels for electricity, steam, etc. These are common on large hospital and college campuses.
East Williston is a LIRR station, very much in Nassau County. In fact, it's not exactly on Hillside Avenue. It is off NY 25B (which at that very point changes names from Hillside Ave to East Williston Ave) but on a side street.
:-) Andrew
East Willison was a joke. That's an outdoor LIRR station. It was stated as a joke.
>> There was also speculation about a station structure under or near Creedmoor, accessible from it's property (an underground utility passage or basement), with finish tiles/station name tablet etc. which to me, seemed far fetched. <<
Rumors of a complete subway station at Creedmoor were probably started by residents there, but the LIRR did have a freight siding that ran there for quite some time.
but the LIRR did have a freight siding that ran there for quite some time.
Creedmore also had passenger service for a while.
188 Street and Hillside?
No, I think that's where the tunnel ends up against bumper blocks. There's no station there.
The question was the name of the station east of 179 St.
Anybody have any details about this alleged station on Hillside Avenue?
I don't think there are any real details. I think it's safe to say that the line was supposed to go down Hillside after 179 St. One person says there might be a station or terminal in East Williston. The person who began this thread said he heard of 2 places where station shells were built. I myself think the next station east of 179 St is 188 St. If anything is actually there, I don't know. I don't think so. Considering there is a proposed stop at 76 St, East of Euclid Ave, it's possible. It's possible but doubtful. Probably someone will read this and start saying I said there is a proposed stop at 188 St.
Since the Queens Boulevard Line structure ends at 184th Place, it's unlikely that anything's beyond that location...however, anything's possible...
David
I suppose whether there are any other shells of stations or tunnel segments that it would remain an MTA secret
What strikes me is that such a stretch of tunnel may have been actually built, without knowing for sure that there be enough money to complete the project.
There are some "Ghost Stations" on the IND, bit I don't know where all of them are.
#3 West End Jeff
I guess some people really do read the historical docuemnts :)
What I said was, "Besides the provisions for the 1929 system, there seem to be rumours of other IND ghost stations: ..." and then I listed the ghost stations you mentioned. They're rumours or legends ... without proof. Unless you have a jackhammer permit, they'll continue to be interesting stories for many years to come.
--Mark
Mark, is there a map available showing the Indepedent lines that were originally proposed ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Yup.
I believe there is a station under Steinway street. I've heard it from a post on this site.
You might be refering to a query I made here several months ago.
I had heard at Steinway St, if you walk a few feet into the tunnel on the catwalk, there is a door. If you looked thru the door, you'd look down to another level. I have no idea where this tunnel would have gone or where it came from. The person who told me about it, I spoke to him once abd never saw him again. I've never seen anything along the line to suggest another tunnel.
I live right off of 73rd Avenue in the 200's in Bayside. Having seen a recent excavation on 73rd Avenue itself to replace either a sewer or water main (I forget which), I can tell you it's not likely there's a subway tunnel under there. It would be nice, maybe, but it is little more than a rumor. Where are you getting this info, anyway?
As everyone knows, hitting a red signal is considered a serious offense. For those of you T/O's out there, what is the main cause for hitting a red in your opinion?
Misjudging a timer. There are also some that leap out at you from around bends, being only about 100 feet or so ahead of the yellow. Then, there's the "hooligans" on the ceilings of some stations, which can be easy to miss, and many other signals with stuff in front of them. Any signal can pose this threat when there's a train right in front of you, especially if you're not accustomed to expecting it red. I was also warned about flaggers who stand or have their flags placed right in front of signals.
I wonder if a link can be found between hitting signals, and working the AM shift. I have heard that people who work AM's, especially early AM's, are less alert, and therefore this is where you find most of your signal overruns.
As everyone knows, hitting a red signal is considered a serious offense.
There are two types of red signal, automatic and home. Running the latter is about as serious an offence as you can get. It warrents either suspension or termination. Railroaders refer to a Stop and Stay aspect as "Fire Your Ass Red".
I don't think it's so much that a home signal is a more serious offense, than it is that you can't get out of it without someone (at least the tower) knowing about it. That is what makes homeballs so dreaded.
The most restrictive aspect an automatic can show is "Stop and Proceed" and the worse that can happen is that you rear end another train. With a home signal you can slide into the path of a conflicting movement for a broadside or head on collision. Not to mention that the other movement may be traveling at full speed.
On the subways, red means stop and stay. ALWAYS. No exceptions unless permitted to key by. I don't think they grant that automatically anymore without looking at the model board and some paperwork ...
The fact that you can key by independant of dispatcher action implies a stop and proceed. A GO has simply superceeded this.
T/O's can key by certain red automatics that are on the yard lead. But I have heard of certain cases where red automatics on a track leading to a yard lead are also keyed.
If you key by without permission, that ball becomes FYAR ... :)
Stop and stay means stop and STAY ... 30 years ago, procedure was stop at the signal, count, then pass the railjoint at extremely reduced speed and expect to hit something. That old procedure has long been gone. You don't MOVE unless command tells you to these days.
And any stop signal in LIRR is definately stop and stay, going through one is probably grounds for dismissal.
Well ... I can only speak for the NYCTA, only place I ever operated LEGALLY ... now in NORAC country, Mike's dead on ... but rapid transit (not including LIRR) being non-FRA pretty much wing it compared to FRA type stuff ... blocks are shorter, line of sight shorter, rules a whole lot tighter given limitations in the sginalling system which allow for much tighter headways. I can't see a "railroad" running at 60 second intervals ... that's WHY the subways have to be tighter. And a red means YOU STOP, GIRL ... heh.
Then why did they design the system w/ key-by in the first place? Trainst was designed for permissive operation, just with stricter control due to the inherent unprofessionalism of morotmen as compared to engineers. The TA's move is just one in a long line of moves to in their campaign for flassid transit.
I was walking the tracks on the L line last night, and saw 3 snow blocks lying next to the same Signal. I don't think any of them called the Command Center to say they hit the signal. I am not going to say were I was working, so no one can get in trouble.
Robert
Snow block? Can you explain this in layperson's terms?
A snow block is a piece of pine stock taped to the trip cock so that in snow the tripcock is rigidly held in place so that the train will not be tripped for the wrong reason.
Snow blocks and tripcocks are not normally used on class I roads. It would seem that your not knowing what a snowblock is should point out something that you do not understand. That is, there is not 100% operational equivalency between the New York Subway System and AMTRAK or other class I roads. Stop trying to put the NYCT into the same box as AMTRAK as far as operation, signaling or workrules.
Excuse me for trying to hold the NYCS to a higher standard.
I wouldn't call Amtrak a 'higher standard', IMHO, their operations are very sloppy, more so that the commuter lines or the NYCTA.
When was the last time you rode the NYCS? The whole system is about ready to fall appart. It is a disgrace to mass transit everywhere. See my post about yesterday's ride on the N.
>>>The whole system is about ready to fall appart. It is a disgrace to mass transit everywhere.<<<
As much as I dislike the NYCTA I find this statement to be totally without basis. Check yourself.
PEACE,
ANDEE
Andee, as much as I find Mike's information based of incorrect data, incorrect assumptions and inapproriate comparisons, I find his statement (that you refe to) completely within character.
Unfortunately, you are correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
Stop calling the subways NYCS. No one calls it that.
>>> Stop calling the subways NYCS. No one calls it that <<<
You do not understand. Mike's world revolves around him. If he wants to call it NYCS it does not matter what the correct abbreviation is. After all we have all seen his unique abbreviation for the Long Island Railroad.
Tom
That's OK ... Mike won't be happy until SD-40's replace the 142's on the Lex. :)
Very funny. We all know that SD-40's are too big for the Lex. GP-30's would be much more appropiate.
Heh. Just checking to see if this thing's on. :)
That would push the asthma and death rate to a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH higher rate. :-\ lol I know you are joking.
"Excuse me for trying to hold the NYCS to a higher standard."
Mike, with all due respect, what makes you think that NYCT is at a lower standard or that you are even slightly qualified to hold it to a higher standard? You've already shown that there are things you do not understand about the system. When you are an expert of mass transit systems, when you have some academic credentials and/or you have some professional experience, then perhaps you'll be qualified.
A snow block is a piece of pine stock taped to the trip cock so that in snow the tripcock is rigidly held in place so that the train will not be tripped for the wrong reason.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, it snows so much in NY, especially underground, that the need for slow blocks was obvious.
I was told they're there to back up the TA when someone is suspected of hitting a red. The way it was explained to me, if you think you're going to hit a red signal, do the following:
Take a quick emergency brake, and when/if you pass the stop arm, you probably won't have "strike mark", but will "lose your wood". On the R142's, just let go of the master control(don't apply emergency brakes because it will resister on computer), and say your hand slipped.
Don't give out this advise to operating crews. The passenger cars from R-110 up record the actual trip cock and car in consist that put the train into emergency. They demoted some TSSs over the R142 BIES. Assume big brother is watching and slow the trains down.
As a matter of fact, I've seen the laptop graphing of R142 'traction energy/brake pipe/straight air/motor tach' and a whole lot more on a BIE. Since the motors can't be banked with a paddle like Redbirds, static tests with the Big Bug and the laptop are finally starting. TA is VERY interested in the performance of ALL new train technology and anything that happens because of hardware/software failure is thrown up to the vendor....woe to the crew for anything else. CI Peter
Ok. You just said that the newer trains, "tech" trains record which trip cock on the consist put the train into emergency. My question is this: If the T/O knows he is going to hit a red automatic, and let's go of the master controller, it would be recorded that the train went into emergency due to the "deadman's feature". The stop arm would still hit the trip cock. But would that be recorded as well?
If the T/O knows he is going to hit a red automatic, and lets go of the master controller, it would be recorded that the train went into emergency due to the "deadman's feature".
Would the deadman activate in that short an amount of time? I know that on mainline railroads there is a delay; don't know about NYCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All all of the trains I have seen the Deadman seems to hook into the BIE system. Many T/O's just release the deadman was their train pulls into a stub terminal. Coudln't do that if there was a delay.
The deadman hooks into the BIE system and the T/O doesn't dump at every station...the stop may be only fifteen seconds and an old trainset with a bad compressor may take far longer to charge up. The T/O might park the trainset in full service brake and release the throttle if the stop was held up. I don't know the RTO rules. CI Peter
"an old trainset with a bad compressor may take far longer to charge up" -- Doesn't NYCT perform orifice tests on the compressors?
Not at the maintenance shop level. If it builds up to the 135-150 PSI and cuts off, if no air leaks are detected or unusual noises are heard - it's presumed to be good.
I'm checking out my orifice right now before i move a few tons of snow. Sms are 29 days apart...T/Os call in a trainset for major problems. Despite all, brake pipe and straight air run trainline so bad compressors are overcome and the RTO run remains safe. We find and repair compressor problems under supervision...a Redbird married pair doesn't usually move BUT a R142 trainset has three compressors and one bad one could move under RTO. CI Peter
"Would the deadman activate in that short an amount of time? I know that on mainline railroads there is a delay; don't know about NYCT"
Older RR deadmans activated when released.
Modern locomotives do not have that kind of a deadman.
They depend on the engineer touching, moving or adjusting a control every so many seconds (about 90). If he has not ajusted a control, or handled the controls in a certain way, then an alarm rings, asking him to acknowledge that he is still alive and in contol. If he failes to acknoledge the alerter, then the train shuts down.
Or at least this is mu nderstanding, and I am sticking to this story.
Elias
For some reason, the TOD, computer display wipes out its memory when the T/O "agrees" with the bie. In short, before attempting a recharge, the T/O must place the handle into emergency to allow the emergency magnet valves to reset. The display wipes out all recollections of the source of the BIE. However the event recorder does not wipe out this source. I was talking to a TSS who responded to a 12-9 on the 6 line a while ago. Sure enough, the passenger who fell between cars and tripped the train registered the BIE to the event recorder through the trip cock. I wouldn't trust anything TA tells us, we need to be more vigilant in our operation.
Hmmmm. I wonder if it's the 12-9 where the train went BIE, the T/O recharged the train, moved about a foot, went BIE again, and the body found later on. If so, I heard that T/O may be facing criminal charges for moving the train before determining the cause of the BIE.
"I was told they're there to back up the TA when someone is suspected of hitting a red. "
And I told you what the real reason is. Being cynical doesn't make you correct. If a snow block is found missing, who's to say when or where it was lost? The only one who checks the train is the operator who pulls it out of the yard. If the block is found missing 19 hours later - good luck in making a case. You really have a poor source of information.
The strike marks are stronger evidence but a loose block is the first thing they look at as a sign, really it should not prove guilt, only innocence. And yes I know because I was accused of hitting a signal and a missing snow wedge, loose tape was considered enough to nail me. As it turns out I had made a reverse move after the alleged hit so they were looking at my 8th car not my first. This also brings up a question I was going to ask you privately, can I get a copy of a cars maintenance record to prove it got shopped/repaired for a wedge or do they wait until the periodic exam to do all that stuff in one shot. I was nervous they would just slip this in my record (they had to charge a late train) and this would haunt me later.
In school car we are advised to look underneath before we take a train even out of the terminal, some do it religiously. Just like you always walk the ground in the yard if only to make sure the last guy did not derail it and hope you are lazy and you buy it. And yes that stuff does happen.
>>>>>>>>In school car we are advised to look underneath before we take a train even out of the terminal, some do it religiously
I ALWAYS check my trip cock before leaving a terminal. I cannot stress this enough to any T/O. Don't buy someone else's mistake. Cover yourself at all times!
Are you kidding, I'd put a kevlar condom on the cock if I thought I could get away with it.
Really it is hard (excuse me )to check all the time especially when your relay is late or you do the relay.
Every scheduled maintainance includes all undercar men to service the tripcock valves: strip the old snowblocks, clean and lubricate the tripcock, replace the snowblock with a new one and secure it with four to five turns of friction tape and paint it all (including the bottom) with glossy white paint. Sometimes, the snowblock doesn't fit in the cavity because of layers of old paint that wan not removed in cleaning! Some guys will not check for proper fit....some guys don't secure the tape ends....some guys don't even bother to clean it all up. If I'm in a hurry....my trips are still so clean that the exixting white paint is perfectly white already.....I have TA white spray paint to touch it up with. I would never leave the trip with any marks... it's up to you the T/O to triple check your trainset. CI Peter
You say I have a bad source of information regarding the real purpose of the "snow blocks".
______________________________________________________________________
BULLETIN
Bulletin No: 106-00 September 1, 2000
To: All Concerned (Particularly Train Operators)
Subject: Wedges on Car-Borne Tripping Devices
The Division of Car Equipment now installs wooden wedges on all car-borne tripping devices year round. In addition to minimizing the danger of tripping trains in the snow, the wedges, if broken or missing, WILL SERVE AS PROOF THAT A TRAIN HAS STRUCK AN OBJECT EN ROUTE, i.e. DEBRIS, SIGNAL, ETC.
______________________________________________________________________
Notice Dude, in the TA's own words, they are called "wedges", not "snow blocks" as some people call them. Still think I have a bad source of information?
For your information, the SNOW BLOCK was a device used by the division of car equipment for the reason I have stated. Until several years ago, the snow blocks were only used between October and April. It's a relatively recent change that has snow blocks installed year round. Now, I'm not going to be a TWU Lawyer but despite what the bulletin says, the missing snow block is not evidence that a specific train operator hit a signal or debris or anything else. It only indicates that in the time period from the time the train left the yard until the missing snow block was found, the snow block fell off for some reason.
The only definitive proof that the train operator hit a red signal is if the area is checked at the time of the BIE and the snow block is found missing from the tripcock and found in the vicinity of the stop arm. Anything else is pure speculation. How would that bulletin explain a missing snow block after sustained operation in inclement weather, where the tape simply fails to hold?
What do you want me to say? I am just going by the TA's own bulletins. They say it's a wedge, not a snow block. They say it can be used as proof against T/O's that a signal was hit.
Why else would it be used year round?
To stop unnecessary BIEs riding over track garbage and pathalogical waste. The block resists the tripcocks arm attempt to swing over something. The trip is essentially there only to operate upon a strike against a signal T-bar. It's a lucky soul who trips saving one arm and two legs. CI Peter
Go to the supply counter and ask for four snowblocks and you'll get four blocks of wood. Ask for four wedges and you'll get one 'wedgie thankyouverrymuch.' It's symantics. CI Peter
Yes, and the operative words in that RTO Bulletin are "YEAR-ROUND".
Amen...done each and every SM. I do it. CI Peter
RTO may use DCE information for their own purposes. They put out bulletins based on this information that may not be 100% operationally correct.
Having called that to your attention, I was only responding to the first line of your post #314074. I did not refer to the second segment. Did the same source of information (that gave you the RTO Bulletin) provide you with the mis-information about preventing strike markes by taking an emergency brake application, as stated in the latter part of that post?
No. The person who told me about taking an emergency brake was a different source than the bulletin source. In fact, the guy who told me about taking the emergency brake probably does not even read his bulletins.
Just understand that many RTO bulletins are written, based on Car Equipment Engineering Alerts and the information is sometimes perverted for RTOs own purposes.
I get the distinct impression that you have a bias against RTO.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace,
ANDEE
Incorrect! RTO is part of the Department of Subways. So is the Division of Car Equipment. Both have essentially the same mission. WE also rely on mutual cooperation to achieve our individual goals. Unfortunately RTO & DCE sometimes view technical information in different lights. That was the only point I was trying to make.
I would agree. In one of your earlier posts, you stated that missing snow blocks aren't used as evidence of a signal overrun. That may be true for DCE, but in RTO, the first thing that RTO Control asks the RCI inspecting the train is whether the snow block is attached or not. It is indeed used as proof in RTO. That is why I tell every T/O to inspect their trip cock before they do anything.
WE ARE BROTHERS!!!!!! We look out for the stupid at our expense. CI Peter
At tripartite arbitration, that level of evidence would likely not stand up to scrutiny. Unless the train is inspected at the place of the incident, it could only be an assumption that the snow block was missing due to any particular incident.
That's not to say that DCE won't try to make the association. Signal dept paints the stop arms yellow and DCE paints the tripcocks white so we can determine what struck what where and when. The missing block, unless it's found at the incident location, is really only a poor indicator.
And that is why we clean the tripcock, replace the snowblock and repaint it. CI Peter
So you advise everyone to check their cocks for wood at each terminal?
Sorry I can't follow this thread too many people are on killfile so all I have left are these sophmoric attempts at humor.
Remember I went to PC school car, we did not get to tell these jokes for 5 months.
We forgive you ... at least you weren't teasing anyone over their angle cock ... ooch.
I will notify my new Dep Sup and foreman that cocks must be checked for wood! The English may not work. CI Peter
"That may be true for DCE, but in RTO, the first thing that RTO Control asks the RCI inspecting the train is whether the snow block is attached or not. It is indeed used as proof in RTO."
So the presence of a snowblock proves that he was not tripped, while the absence of the block, legally, proves nothing.
Elias
The absense of a snow block proves nothing other than the snow block is missing. A yellow strike mark on the tripcock would be a more positive indication that the train was tripped by a signal. White paint on the stop arm (at the same time) would be pretty conclusive.
>>>>>>>>Take a quick emergency brake, and when/if you pass the stop arm, you probably won't have "strike mark", but will "lose your wood".
Not true.
If you pass a red signal and the associated stop arm, 98% of the time you will have a strike mark and a missing snow block regardless if you placed the train in emergency or not. When the trip cock hits the stop arm, the snow block is broken off by the force of hitting the stop arm. Also, a strike mark is left on both the stop arm and the trip cock. Usually, there will be a black mark on the stop arm caused by chipping the yellow paint off, and the yellow paint would then be on the train's trip cock. Sometimes instead of yellow paint, the trip cock will have a black mark when the white paint on the trip cock breaks off from the force of the collision with the stop arm. Either one can provide proof of a signal overrun.
Thanks for setting me straight on that. I guess I got the wrong information. I was under the impression that if there was brake pipe air, the car-borne tripping devise would just slide by the stop arm, and not show a strike mark because there was no resistence.
You will have a strike mark but it will be smaller.
Just a quick note: I tried whacking a trip during inspection with my hand without removing the snow block. Hand hurt. CI Peter
You could have seriously hurt yourself. Next time, use your head :-)
Did it just once, apprehensively, AND luckily it was NOT secured properly!!! WON'T do it again, even with my foot. I promise. CI Peter.
use your head, but wear a hard hat !
Blue 'OnTheJuice' hardhat and vest too!!
You've got to find an alternative spot to try your karate moves Peter.
You were whacking your cock while you had wood and you hurt your hand.
Damn.
Ahhh snowblocks...the work of a small genius. On my Redboid today was scrawled in chalk 'Paint Snowblock.' It was written by a Deputy Superintendent who gets off his butt to check ALL the work covered by his maintainance supervisors and car inspectors. I was called into his office today to explain how I carbody test crew switches on the Redbirds...I was a little afraid...but my tests were correct and was told to open up the switch plate upon every inspection to look for loose flimsy springs. Unca Steve knows his business and knows how to make car inspectors out of men. Unca Steve knows my new top boss...and my new top boss never once relented any sense of anger or disrespect towards him despite..... New York subways are a unique form of heavy rail respected throughout the world and I have the priviledge working with the best. CI Peter
>>>Can you explain this in layperson's terms?<<<
OMIGOD! Is JM admitting he is a layperson? Film at 11. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The system was designed like that so you can pass the signal if it is defective or it is necessary for emergency reasons.
>>>...inherent unprofessionalism of morotmen<<
What IS it with your constant bashing of NYCTA T/Os?
Peace,
Andee
It's a Jerky Mike thing. He's still in college and knows EVERYTHING!!!
Train Dude has tried reason. Mike still says what Mike says is the truth, regardless of facts.
TrainDude should give him ten days on the street. CI Peter
But, since he knows EVERYTHING!!!, he will pay no attention to the Dude and do whatever he wants.
I wonder if he gives his college professors as much grief as he dishes out here.
If you take the time to read his posts, you will understand what Dude and I see in him.
I definately see his college isn't the problem. You need common sense developed in full before you leave high school. He perceives a railroad engineer's job at a higher level of competance on the individual basis than he gives credit to the motorman performing the same work. If I were to argue on behalf of a T/O that hits a red signal that he should have the charges thrown out because the control center report denoted the "block" missing instead of the "wedge" missing, I would be considered petty or naive and would lose credibility at hearings in the future.
Post 313385 Excerpt from Jersey Mike:
Then why did they design the system w/ key-by in the first place? Trainst was designed for permissive operation, just with stricter control due to the inherent
unprofessionalism of morotmen as compared to engineers. The TA's move is just one in a long line of moves to in their campaign for flassid transit.
BTW Mike, remember the Bergen County collision where the Engineer who was diabetes colorblind misjudged the home signal and ran head on killing several in the wreck? Positive train stopping wasn't a part of their setup until that happened. Restricting was the most restrictive operation you could get. If you were following restrictive speed rules, either in subways or the RR, you eliminated the possibility you were under cardiac arrest or asleep. Positive train stops are there in case of operator failure, not unprofessionalism.
Thankyou Engine Brake. After reading one particular post of 'how to avoid BIE notification' on the R142, I see your points so very clearly. There are a few T/Os always looking for a way out of doing something they knew was wrong...we all commit that sin sometimes in our lives...but the errors done by careless operation risk lives and equipment. Being new and wanting to keep my new work makes me ever more vigilant. BTW: checked out 207th today...saw the BIG crane barge...in preparation for THREE DAYS OF SCHOOL Mod 2. Ugh...antique digital electronics!!!!!!! CI Peter
I leave the yard at 3:47. Look me up if you are off by then.
Left early today after class....two more days of digital BS. My friend, you probably walked by me on the cafeteria stairs (I don't even know your name!) I had a wonderful time...walked fifteen blocks in the neighborhood, got to see the dollys and bugs. Of course there is the bungee jump in the back yard. The biggest adventure was PARKING.....all the way in the back against the third rail. All ice, was dark at 6:25 and had my vest and flashlight. It's Engine Brake Land, the 'consenting adult park of many amusements.' Just bring your six wheel drive and leave your transmission behind. CI Peter
Huh? The fact that you _can_ overcome the train stop without
dispatcher action somehow gives you permission to do it?
That line of thinking doesn't make any sense. The indication
of the signal is derived from the rule book, not from any
supplementary devices such as wayside stops or ASC. The TA
rulebook makes a single red automatic signal STOP AND STAY
If you check the rulebook R/R is still a different rule than R. R/R cannot be passed (the towerman has to give you a restricting R/R/Y), but the trip will not drive on a R/R. For an automatic R the rule is to stop, call command and then proceed. A home signal displays Stop and Stay, an automatic displays "Stop, Call and Proceed". "S,C&P" is less restrictive than "Stop".
So the precise definition and purpose of a homeball signal is what, compared to an automatic signal?
NYC Transit Rule 64(a), entitled AUTOMATIC SIGNAL:
A fixed signal at the entrance to a block to govern trains entering and using that block.
(b) BLOCK
A length of track of defined limits, the use of which is governed by an Interlocking Signal or Automatic Signal.
Rule 65(f), entitled INTERLOCKING SIGNAL:
A fixed signal of an interlocking.
(g) HOME SIGNAL
An Interlocking Signal at the entrance to a route or block to govern trains entering and using said route or block.
NYCTA doesn't follow standard railroad rules. A RED whether single or double means Stop and STAY ... period. You can't "proceed" unless given INSTRUCTIONS by the tower to key by ... it doesn't mean yelling "toodles" into the radio and then wrapping it. :)
I don't have the text of a current NYCT rulebook in front of me.
Neither do you, I suspect, otherwise you'd quote the rule.
The call-on aspect of a home signal is both a means of signaling
permission to proceed and a mechanism for releasing the stop.
Don't get the mechanics of getting the train through the signal
without going BIE confused with the indication or the procedure.
With an automatic signal, the most common arrangement is one
that allows an automatic key-by, i.e. you enter the track circuit
in advance and cause the arm to drive and retain. There are also
circle-K signals, which require you to operate a trip releasing
lever or key, NO KEY BY signals in which you have to bridge
the joint and then go out and step on the arm, and WD signals,
which are not classified as interlocking signals, yet once you've
tripped on one you'll need the tower to reset it.
The indication given by a single red is STOP AND STAY.
That is the same indication given by a double red. The
rule book provides a procedure for passing a STOP AND STAY
signal. After a period of time (I think 2 minutes), if the
signal has not cleared and the motorman does not know of
any reason why it shouldn't, control center is to be contacted
for instructions. If control or a tower doesn't answer the
radio, there are further rules about going to a wayside phone,
etc. Once the determination is made by control or other
supervision with authority that the signal should be passed,
then we get to the mechanics of how to actually pass it.
"There are also circle-K signals, "
Requiring a stop at a nearby convenience store?
"NO KEY BY signals in which you have to bridge
the joint and then go out and step on the arm"
Is there a minimum weight for T/O's?
Heh. Shorter guys have to jump up and down a few times. :)
Is there a minimum weight for T/O's?
I think it is 70 pounds, so I guess you'll have to stick
with signal maintainer.
ba-DIM-bum-pissssh
"There are also circle-K signals, "
Requiring a stop at a nearby convenience store?
No, red means trefe :)
The call-on aspect of a home signal is both a means of signaling
permission to proceed and a mechanism for releasing the stop.
The presence call on light is an entirely new aspect, R/R/Y. A train can not pass a R/R as nothing short of tying the trip arm will allow the train to pass. A train can pass an automatic single red signal w/o having to tie the trip. Furthermore, control can allow a train to pass the single red signals in a normal course of operation. Having a train pass a R/R as an R/R would require special circumstances. My point is that passing a R/R homesignal is worse than passing a R automatic signal. I think we can agree on that.
IMHO the TA needs to get the stick out of its ass and allow permissive operation. If the ACELA can stop and proceed than an NYC Subway train can stop and proceed.
My point is that passing a R/R homesignal is worse than passing a R automatic
signal. I think we can agree on that.
Yes, it is worse, but mostly because the train operator is certain
to get into trouble over the former because tower intervention
will be required to get moving again.
Having a train pass a R/R as an R/R would require special
circumstances.
Actually the common reasons for giving permission to pass a stop
signal apply equally to homeballs and automatics alike. They
are both block-related. Either a track circuit failure or a
stalled train ahead which needs to be closed in on. Permission
is not generally given in the latter case for mere congestion.
If the reason for an undesired R/R signal is because of switch
condition or cross-locking, the tower's call-on button won't
do anything anyway.
IMHO the TA needs to get the stick out of its ass and allow permissive operation. If the ACELA
can stop and proceed than an NYC Subway train can stop and proceed.
First of all, your opinion is never humble!
I suppose one could have a long intellectual argument about
permissive operation and why it was done away with 30 odd years
ago on the NYCT system (and more recently on PATH). It basically
comes down to where do you locate the decision making process
for a decision which is safety-critical and doesn't come up too
often (maybe a dozen authorized key bys in the entire system per
day, tops). Do you distribute it or centralize it? In years past,
the distributed approach was the only one possible, because the
train crews did not have continuous communications capability.
Now communications are cheaper and more reliable. So, what is
the benefit of placing that decision making intelligence into
the field, into the minds of each train operator, and how does
that weigh against the risk that someone will make the wrong
decision (don't forget, the train operator has less information
about conditions ahead than the tower or command center), and
the added expense of having to train and maintain a more highly
qualified train operator. Although I can wax nostalgic about
the good old days when trains were trains and men were men and
all that BS, the primary mission of a public transit agency is
not to preserve heritage but to move people as quickly, safely and
cheaply as possible. The primary benefit to giving train operators
authority to key by automatics is that in some rare situations
it will reduce customer delay. Unlike the big railroads where
the distance between that red signal and the train ahead could be
miles, you're not talking about much of a savings in the transit
world.
Do you distribute it or centralize it? In years past,
the distributed approach was the only one possible, because the
train crews did not have continuous communications capability.
Now communications are cheaper and more reliable.
The limiting factor is the free time of the dispatcher(s). How many key by calls can a dispatcher handle AND maintain his other, critical functions (route alignment).
The primary benefit to giving train operators
authority to key by automatics is that in some rare situations
it will reduce customer delay.
Permissive operation can stand to increase the overal tph of any given line although this is best seen in conjuction w/ cab signals.
I am surprised that PATH has taken such an action. PATH uses federally certified Engineers who can be trusted to work permissivly. It is also interesting that the LIRR has done the exact opposite by removing all wayside block signals from its lines. The engineers won't even get a stop and proceed any more. Between interlockings the worst they get is a restricting (or ASC equivalent) cab signal and they are completely on ther own to approach the block limit prepared to stop and then to approach the obstruction prepared to stop.
The limiting factor is the free time of the dispatcher(s). How many key by calls can a dispatcher
handle AND maintain his other, critical functions (route alignment).
Under NYCT terminology, the Dispatcher does not line up routes.
That is the job of the tower operator. The number of requests
to key by that generally come in to the control center per day
is fairly low.
Permissive operation can stand to increase the overal tph of any given line...
In the case of the NYCT system, making automatic signals permissive
would not materially affect tph. At most stations, timer
signals allow a following train to close in. Being allowed to key
by those last two reds would be a meaningless gain of only a
few car lengths.
Remember, this is not a railroad running in the open country.
This is a bunch of very crowded trains, which do not have the
same crashworthiness as required by FRA, operating in tight
dark tunnels with sight distances sometimes measured in car
lengths. PATH is probably even worse than the IRT in terms
of curve radius and visibility.
Under NYCT terminology, the Dispatcher does not line up routes.
That is the job of the tower operator. The number of requests
to key by that generally come in to the control center per day
is fairly low.
I thought that the NYCS was closing its towers and converting to CTC operation.
Check your civil service titles, just as Jeff said, a Dispatcher does not control movements for passing red signals.
I once was on a train when they lost signal (AC) power to most of the signals in the DeKalb area (From Court St to 7th Ave).
The biggest problem was crews getting AIR TIME to call in the key by. After 15 minutes Control was just going throught he motions and allowing keybys but EVERY SIGNAL had to be called in by EVERY train even though EVERYone knew the signals were down hard. We sat for 5 minutes once when the T/O couldn't get on the air. Each read back from Control included the train's call letters and the singal number it could pass.
So a red signal is a stop and stay unless some other permision is given to pass and during this incident you could count the signals as we stopped at each and waited (even the ones on the middle of the platform).
"I thought that the NYCS was closing its towers and converting to CTC operation."
Tower operators operate the towers under the supervision of a train dispatcher or an assist train dispatcher.
"I thought that the NYCS was closing its towers and converting to CTC operation."
Tower operators operate the towers under the supervision of a train dispatcher or an assist train dispatcher. Any permission to pass a red signal, either by keying by or via a call on, is issued by a member of supervision.
Red on yard leads are permissable to key by. On main line track, permission to key by must be given by local supervision under rule 37N (unless the number has changed in the new rule book)
Heh. Yeah, the rulebook in effect 30 years ago, though written on papyrus, had pretty much the same rule. You HAD to call command and ask pretty please before you could close the joint anywhere except for call-ons in the yard ... (fat chance when the radio was of course in a dead spot, then you'd find every other blue light handset might work) wouldn't have a hope in hell of remembering the rule number - like everything else back in those days, had to turn in the rule book also in exchange for my final check. :)
That's a RR distinction. Under NYCT rules, all red signals are
absolute (on main track at least). Running an automatic is
in theory just as serious as running a homeball, but one is
less likely to get caught doing the former.
All trains have at least two red signals behind them. You can't really "run" a signal due to the trip arm. If you try to run an automatic signal you will stop before hitting the obstruction. I have seen cases where a train has been able to approach a red home signal w/ that one signal the only protection to switch etc so running a home has greater ramifacations.
There is always an approach signal to the rear of a homeball
that is protecting a switch or other conflicting movement.
That signal usually clears on time. True, once you've crept
up to the homeball, a lot more damage can be done if you suddenly
decide to wrap it up and run through it as opposed to running
an automatic signal. As for your statement that
"If you try to run an automatic signal you will stop before
hitting the obstruction. ", tell that to the dozens of motormen
who have died over the years (last time was 1995) in rear-end
collisions.
tell that to the dozens of motormen
who have died over the years (last time was 1995) in rear-end
collisions.
That was due to cheap brake shoes that increased the braking distance.
True, and instead of going with the noisier but stronger and standarized brakes, the TA started slowing all the trains down with governers and timers, making the concept of rapid tranist truly obsolete in this city.
That was due to cheap brake shoes that increased the braking distance
I'm not sure what you mean by cheap. If you are implying that
the shoes were defective because they were purchased based on
low bid or something like that, you're completely off the mark.
If cheap is some slang way of expressing your preference for
cast iron instead of composition shoes, then you've got part of
the story. The rest of the story involves changes to the brake
control pneumatics, increased top end speed of the GOH cars,
and shortened signal blocks. In summary, a systems engineering
problem.
I have heard what Mr. CCNY said, that the TA chose to stay w/ lower cost "soft" shoes. Cost measured not only per brake shoe but also wheel wear and some other related items. If you listen to anyone on this board they will all say that trains went faster back in the day so it probably wasn't a top speed issue. Finally, there is no reason for the TA to shorten signal blocks. A block costs money. Moving a block costs a LOT of money. Diving a block in two costs slightly less, but would lead to insanely short block lenghts. Was there really a system wide block shortening programme or were there just a few isolated problem spots. Did the TA ever consider going to 4 block signaling in places w/ short blocks?
The decision to use composition shoes was made by many other
railways. There is nothing wrong with them per se, however
car engineering failed to take into account the different
stopping profiles. That modern trains, lighter and equipped
with (after GOH) 4 motors of 115 hp, could go faster than
the pre-war equipment for which the signal block lengths
were originally designed, was a key factor cited in the 1995
NTSB report.
Signal blocks were shortened during some re-signaling programs
to improve tph. There are many other places in the system where
the block lengths were designed under the assumption that the
motorman would maintain a certain posted speed in the territory.
And amazingly, we could maintain speed without benefit of a lying speedo to glance at ... didn't seem such an impossible demand - maintain posted speed until you saw an R marker or a new limit. Coast was a GOOD thing ... highly encouraged. Until the S' started backing up on you and you had to grab a mini to continue coasting ...
"when trains were trains" ... heh. Loved that.
I may have asked this before, but on a northbound D train of oldtimers along CPW, how long did you keep it under power before coasting, and when did you typically reapply power? I remember hearing the bull and pinion gears wailing away at 81st St., so I assume the train was still under power at that point.
Yes, at 81st you were typically still under power after the hill climb and you wanted to get it up to speed so you could bite your sammich in coast ... normally if you had motors though, you were there once the tenth car cleared 72nd, so my guess is that train had a few dead motors. I had a few dogs here and there that needed it in parallel for most of the trip up.
You definitely went to coast south of 103rd though unless you had a death wish. :)
I do recall that on that very first D train I ever took up CPW, it coasted up to around that uphill stretch before 110th St., then the bull and pinion gears sang out as the motorman applied power.
The R-10s were at full speed at the point you described. Once they were past that storage track before 81st St., they were off to the races. Thunder and blazes all the way.
CPW was a great place to grab your sammich and suck down a soda before you had to work for a living again. :)
It still is with a 44.
I was officially critiqued out of trying to push the timers southbound. Take no brake SB from 125-59. Really
I was saving a half a minute AT BEST.
Heh. Wonder if we should be giving away all our secrets ... still, glad to hear there's still a place to cop a munch when you get shortsheeted outta lunch. And yeah, I remember the parade south of 81st ... amazingly, though they were out there, I never did get a 44. Occasionally a 32 but since I was on dog patrol, it was the 9'ers. At Stillwell, they'd BEAT ya if you even LOOKED at a 44 back then. :)
But you loved those oldtimers, so it was a moot point, right? Now, if you put the reverser in neutral, did you still have to hold the controller down to defeat the deadman's feature? Or was it a case of "Look, Ma, no hands!"?
Centering the reverser allowed you to trade "two-fisted operation" for "two-fisted sammich munching" ... centered, you could let go. VERY useful for a sammich and a soda. :)
That's why if you were caught, it was the street ... fortunately, so MANY bulbs were gone on the signs, the motor instructors had to really look carefully and usually assumed you had no lights. Ah, the BENEFITS of deferred maintenance. Heh.
Or a Drake's Devil Dog or Ring Ding, right?:-)
That was the other question I had. Chances are there were very few, if any, backlit side destination signs on any R-1/9s by the time you were operating them. I don't think I ever saw another backlit sign on the oldtimers after 1968 or thereabouts. Since the light bulbs were wired in series, if one burned out, the other one would go out, too. I'm sure that towards the end, no one bothered to check or replace light bulbs. The R-7/9s which wound up on the Eastern Division had their light bulbs removed from the sign boxes. Eddie S. told me the whole story at Shoreline in 1980. Another take to this story: the original R-1/9 side destination roller curtains had round holes in the canvas at one end of the roll to allow access to the light bulbs. The newer curtains installed on those cars on the Eastern Division didn't have the round holes. I have examples of both and can vouch for that.
I will say this much: the image of a backlit "Coney Island" sign on a prewar D train is still very fresh in my mind, even after almost 35 years. It's no accident that I usually set my sign box for a D or F train, so I can bring up "Coney Island". Right now, the box is signed up for an F.
Devil Dogs and Ring Dings were "breakfast" or "late trip consolation feed" ... on the northbound second trip, that was my lunch and it was usually a meatball sub or a veal parm that I'd stash on the floor under the seat to keep it warm. CLEARLY a "two fisted lunch" ... I had been admonished by a few motor instructors about the lights being out here and there, but it was pretty normal ops to center the key for holding lights and let go anyway, so it wasn't an excuse for disciplinaries back THEN anyway ...
But yeah, there weren't a whole lot of lights on the sides. The TOP lights ALSO went out though and they were usually pretty good about screwing a couple of bulbs in up on the bulkhead, allowing the geese to see the oncoming white blank train going to wherever the hell I felt like. :)
And YES, there were SOME D trains that had BRIGHTON BEACH on the end signs ... not many, but they always found their way to the lead and tail even if the cars were cut out.
I never saw a Brighton Beach sign on an R-1/9 on the IND. OTOH I don't think I ever rode on a prewar D train on a weekday after Chrystie St. Came close, though - my first CPW express joyride was on November 24, 1967. The R-7/9s on the Eastern Division had truncated Brighton Beach signs on their new curtains.
Yeah ... there were a few of them on the bulkhead ... rule of the road was twirl until you found it, if you didn't then you ran out of curtain and left it there. :)
Selkirk, I think you could have left it wrapped around even past 81 Street. The way I remember it, wrap it around until you get to the middle of 86 Street and then you would be able to coast all the way to 125 Street without touching the brake. Then they replaced the signals on CPW and all that went out the window!
Usually you could coast a few cars after saluting 81st ... I was good for two sammiches for lunch and a cola ... needed the extra time. Heh. Centering the key was mighty handy. I don't think that works on any of the newer cars on the system. You did have to take a few bites of air though at about 103rd and had to be ready for it ...
Northbound on CPW before we removed field shunting, typically you could keep it in 3rd point through 72nd St. (roughly 2 minutes) and then coast the remainder of the way to 116th St. before braking for the timers into 125th St. We did this many times when doing testing to solve the Westinghouse hot grid problems.
I can tell ya where I rolled to, but after 30 years, I can't remember whether it was 103 or 110 where the downramp began along the station line - it's been that long that I forget. But yeah, it was a nice roll until the first yellow before that downhill ... I'd often "touch it up a bit" around 96th, but for a face-stuffing, that stretch couldn't be beat ... pity a train won't go into "cruise control" anymore. :)
Tell me more about the westies ... hope I wasn't doing an undercar meltdown with my own moves. Doubt the R9's got warm in centered-key operation. Heh.
The downgrade for the n/b express track begins at 103rd. You can look over and see both station levels from an express train. On top of that, there is no crash wall between the express tracks north of 103rd. You can see just how massive the I-beams are between the express tracks.
The n/b express track ramps up at 110th St. and is level with the other three tracks midway through the station. A unique arrangement, to say the least.
That's what I remembered ... Dude kinda threw me for a loop there wondering if it was 116th where the dip occurred ... you had to be slowing down for that ramp or they'd be picking you out of the steel. But up to there it was rollercoasterama ... enough time to finish your peekle too. :)
The dance of the northbound express makes little sense. It drops down at 103, and one would expect the local to swing over and drop down to its east. In fact, that's not what happens at all.
I surmise the problems RARELY happened with R9s. I think it was with dynamic brake problems. I recall slight pullbacks going back from everything from the R68s, in which TD mentions meltdowns to R10s. All cars I had these problems with were Westinghouse cars. Sometimes if I was lucky and it happened on the first car, I could read the damage on the ammeter. Going back to power would run up the controllers normal, but cutting the 3 and 5 didn't always work either. Back in the days, you rarely MCO'd anything, especially if your image in the gunsight was the mouth of a river tube. I still dig that story I read here about an R42WH that fed 600 to its headlights and Low-V wiring. Bill from Maspeth, was that yours on the stand?
Wow! That musta been a HELL of a lightshow! Sure hope Mister Extinguisher was the conductor on that run. :)
On the Westinghouse cars they used a device known as the J/BDC contactor. THe critical part was the BDC (Build Down Contactor). Normal coasting current is about 50 amps but could get much higher. The BDC was designed to come in at 140 amps and shunt the current. However the BDC, for several reasons, didn't always come in. Currents in some cases rose to 800 amps and higher, giving the pullback that engine brake described. The grids were designed to handle that current but for no more than 30 or 40 seconds. Coasting for 5 minutes on CPW caused the grids to melt (if the J/BDC failed) and damage undercar wiring in the process. One instance caused a car to be out of service for nearly 2 years. It was in searching for the cause of the hot grid incidents that I found that nearly the entire uptown run from 59th St. to 125th St was a slight downgrade on which we could coast at speed for up to 5 minutes.
COAST&TOAST You can be sure if it's Westinghouse 8`P
I *still* can't get over that ... maybe a BIG lever in the cab ...
Yep ... that "downgrade" was what made it cafeteria time on the mighty D for me ... and why you never had to pull air headed south, unlike Tremont to 145 ... but yeah, got spoiled with the R9's ... no grids in coast at ALL, thus nothing to fear. Interesting angle in the design of the cams there. I would have expected (silly me) that the LAST thing you'd want is dynamic shunt in coast but apparently I'm missing some "wisdom" here ...
So what you describe sounds like the nimrods of my day that thought it was alright to punch to switching and just LEAVE it there for a while, wondering where that blue smoke was coming from. :)
The WH CAM group had a problem in that the resting position
of the cam controller is coasting/spotting. The dynamic loop
is all set up except for one contactor (I'm a little rusty...
I think it is the BDC). If that contactor hangs up or welds
shut, the car runs around dragging a continuous dynamic brake,
which eventually toasts the grids. BCO/MCO won't help because
the contactor is mechanically shut. The only solution is to
cut some motor leads or pull the truck disconnect, if you can
get to it on the road. The other sleazy way around it is to MCO
the car, then go underneath to the reverser and throw it with the
magnet valve the other way. Then the car won't generate as long
as you keep moving the same direction. Oh, I suppose you could
cut the B1 grid resistor lead and open the loop that way, but
good luck ID'ing that in the field.
The problem is less likely to have happened with the older
Unit Switch designs (such as the R10s had) because multiple
contactors would have had to fail at the same time.
"I have seen cases where a train has been able to approach a red home signal w/ that one signal the only protection to switch etc"
Where?
Except for some IRT signalling now replaced, there is _always_ signal overlap.
Are you talking about the presence of controled approach signals held at red?
what I mean is that the switch is also protected by the approach(even if it later times out), so there's really two signals protecting the turnouts in the case you describe
The signals south of 72nd Street spur on Central Park Northbound track A2 can and has been run before during a switch run through years back. The distant signal and the home signal can be a little too close together for comfort even in newly signalled areas. In this case, the leaving signal at 72nd Street displayed yellow.
Umm three words "Willy B. Accident"
Four words, crappy ass brake shoes.
Once again, mike, you are speaking about something you have incorrect information about. The Williamsburg Bridge incident had nothing to do with the type of brake shoes.
Just out of curiosity (I get my info from here, so forgive me heh) wasn't the cause determined to be that the motorman was "asleep" combined with what was perceived to be insufficient signal distances along with wet track along with the braking profile being less than the system was designed for? That's the IMPRESSION I got from what I read here and from what little of the NTSB report I read before I went to sleep in the cab here reading it. :)
>>>>(I get my info from here, so forgive me heh)<<<
ROTFLMAO
Peace,
ANDEE
That plus the cars had a 15% increase in horsepower from the original design. However, the real failure was a systems failure. Signal and car were modified without the other department being notified or consulted. As to mike's contention, we are still using the same Cobra Brake Shoes on all cars except the R-142/143.
Well ... you know how in my own heart, nothing beat the old iron shoes of yesteryear. Noisy, yes, but they were "graberific" ... when I hear of motormen since those days having to pull a full service and make a sign of the cross as the 10 car marker is almost in their face, well ... that'd make me a bit skittish. Then again, there's dynamic braking and not electric assist like the old days so I s'pose it's a wash.
You raise an interesting point though - you're right. I remember 90 and 100 HP as being typical from back my way. Hell, I think 70 per motor was one of the old standards too. I forget after all these years. That would also explain why the shunt step is ... ummm ... not a good idea. Hadn't thought about that. But from all I hear from folks that actually DO operate and remember the old "grabwells" ... the newer shoes are "slower" than the originals I remember. I'd be lucky to not blow the platform with what's running today the way I ran.
YOu can go to www.ntsb.gov and get the NTSB report on the accident. Charts and graphs (8X10 glossy photos...as the song goes).
Does my yard have three kinds of shoes??? We have Redbird ones, R142 tread only ones and isn't the R62/R127 different too?? CI Peter
The Cobra shoe and the Tiger shoe are interchangable. Most people perfer the cobra shoe because because the composite material is more consistent.
Usually hitting a red signal is an accident caused by teenagers fooling around with the acception of someone not paying attention or under the influence. I feel T/O's do a damn good job mostly and it is our "Robert Rays" that insult their names.
Teenagers? I'll tell you, fatigue has to be the leading cause of signal overruns. I wonder if there is data which can be used to compare signal overruns on the AM shift vs. the PM shift. I would imagine more overruns and wrong routes occur in the AM, and are the result of fatigue.
If any of you T/O's out there can find out, it would sure be interesting to know for sure.
Even operating on the BVE, when I'm tired I overrun stations and blew a few signals. Bottom line is T/O's need their sleep, everybody does, and the TA has to recognize that.
Heh. Try stopping on the mark after a few beers. :)
I can do that. My mark is the second automatic out of Fordham.
Heh. I'm guessing you mean southbound D there. :)
On the subject of beer and overrunning station platforms, I got a crack at breaking in an off the streeter today. What is the whining and complaining for?
Heh. Kenny go splat on the glass just like *I* did! You killed Selkirk! :)
That's *cute* though ... and where oh where did the R10 get that R9 paint job? It actually looks ... cool ... then again I guess it's a good thing I'm off the railroad ... I would have had the compressor pumping up the main tank AND a KEG below ... heh.
Kyles Mom painted it. 207 Street had a knack for ruining prototypes. There were two R33s in 180 Street at the start of the clean car appearance program, I think 9044/5. They were painted s**t brown. They were also crafty at hand painting numbers over missing plates. Some of the R44s had the old style numbers, like on 135 and 2755, although I don't think 207 made 2755's plates.
Heh. Back in my day, we were allowed to have a limited amount of fun. I would have probably proudly done a few runs with Kenny in my face if South Park was on the air back then. They hadn't thought of whizzing in the bottle back then so about all you'd get from the TMO if you pulled something like that on the road was a bit of ball busting and "don't do that again" ... a small price to pay for a yuk. Of course, now you go downtown. TA has no sense of humor anymore. :)
The 110 R-10s which were fixed up in 1984-85 were painted dark green. I still like the racing stripe scheme the best. Too bad it was around for such a short period of time.
P. S. Maybe we could doctor that photo some more and put an A sign on the bulkhead with "Wash. Hts 207th St." on the destination side.
The main cause of passing a signal displaying stop isn't misjudging timers, it isn't stupidity, it isn't even rushing the train. It is simply innattention. Unless you were in the position of having the tower operator flashing a controlled signal against you, you didn't pay attention to the warning signs that were displayed to you. It is fair to say you earned your days in the street.
How often do the T/Os hit red signals?
#3 West End Jeff
Just once.
Are you aware of any other T/Os hitting red signals?
#3 West End Jeff
Are you aware of any other T/Os hitting red signals?
#3 West End Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell yeah.
yea u'll know. u will wonder why did the train stop and why is it making that funny noise. I was on a E train that hit D2A 1700. thats a automatic before sutphin blvd on that downhill.
Shit happens. The TA is too strict on it's employees. I don't know what the big deal is about.
passing a red signal has potentially deadly consequences. Enforcement of these rules has always been fairly strict.
You're right on the money there. Sometimes there is NO room for error.
#3 West End Jeff
>>> I don't know what the big deal is about. <<<
Would it be a big deal if a school bus operator drove past flashing red lights at a railroad grade crossing (even if he saw no train)?
Tom
Yes, that would be.
Would it be a big deal if a school bus operator drove past flashing red lights at a railroad grade crossing (even if he saw no train)?
Tom, I'm going to assume you're trying to make a point here and not suggesting that flashing red lights should be ignored by anyone, especially a school bus driver - am I right? I was on a school bus that was struck by a train back in the early '60s - in that case there were no flashing lights (it was a private road crossing - we were on a field trip) and the bus driver didn't see the train (quite possibly true, given the curve and the trees), although I can't believe he didn't hear it (as he claimed during the investigation). Fortunately the train was moving at about 5 mph and the impact was at the very front of the bus - but talk about a bunch of frightened kids and teachers...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's actually a criminal violation - no comparison.
>>> That's actually a criminal violation <<<
The reason going through a red signal on a subway is not a criminal violation is because the subway is a closed system, so discipline is left to the TA rather than the courts. If you could imagine a subway system in which anyone could operate their own subway car, running a red signal probably would be a criminal violation. Even as it is now, if running a red signal led to a fatal accident, the T/O could be charged with criminal negligence.
Tom
As far as the TA is concerned, hitting a signal is a collision. You collided with the stop arm!
I heard a song where the singer mentioned that he will go to Heaven on a boat. Well, that reminds me of my fantasy of how I will get to Heaven.
It will be on a BMT Standard six car train. Immediately after I die, I will find myself on a BMT Standard first car in the front with two angels. One angel will be the motorman and the other will be the conductor. The angels take male forms here.
The train is on the inbound express track on the Brighton Line traveling between Neck Rd and Ave. U. The motorman does not talk to me (as usual) but the conductor angel stands with me and does comfort me (in my first moments after death).
The six car train makes all the Brighton express stops but there is no one else in the train or at the stations.
When the train approaches Prospect Park station, instead of descending into the tunnel (under Flatbush Ave.), the whole train leaves the track and goes into the sky.
The conductor announces that the next stop will be Heaven. The distance from the Brighton tracks through the sky to the Heaven station is the longest distance between any two stations on the ride. It is about as long as Dekalb Ave. to Canal Street over the bridge, would be.
I enjoy watching Brooklyn and then Manhattan as we ascend in the sky. Finally we pull into a station on the local track (three tracks). The standard NYCTA sign says Heaven and the station looks like Bay 50th Street on the West End.
When the doors are opened by the conductor angel a woman welcomes me to Heaven and leads me away from the train and out of the station. I am now in Heaven, and that is how I want to get there, on my last subway ride.
LONG LIVE the BMT STANDARDS!
Did you see any of the Hi or Lo V's up there? :^)
No, but I am still looking for my cassette of the low V from Ed Davis. I know that one day I will find it. Then you can close your eyes and...
Save a seat for me when that train of BMT Standards stops at Newkirk Ave ! As long as we don't up the Sea Beach is fine with me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh MAN ... there you go again. :)
What would be terrible is riding to Heaven on a train of R68 Hippos, as even all of eternity wouldn't be long enough to get you there!
I'd love to get there on a train of R-10s myself. Signed up as an A, of course.
that was beautiful. did the station really say heaven if so what station
It looked like the Bay 50th Street station on the West End and there were three tracks.
This fantasy may have started as a dream and then I embellished, but I can not remember.
It looked like the Bay 50th Street station on the West End and there were three tracks.
This fantasy may have started as a dream and then I embellished, but I can not remember.
The NYCTA sign said in white letters with black backround...HEAVEN.
I'll second that!!!
This is a better way to remember them...
Foe a moment there I thought you were going to say St. Peter greeted you once you got there.:-)
Nah ... Saint Peter is still "in de hole" doing carbody inspections. :)
I'd prefer a trainset of R30's (original paint scheme) myself, or maybe a LIRR M-1 set, going at full speed....yeah....and my vision of Heaven station would be more like.........Jamaica Station, with black on white lettering (for the station name) :)
Stuart, RLine86Man and JamaicaStationMan
My train will be a Lo-V and I'll be at the railfan window. I'll have an angel crew,my two dogs (which I had) will be there and we will go together to explore the New New York Subway System which will include all previous removed lines plus the current lines and all removed stations and all current stations. Chambers On the J will be in full pristine glory as will all stations. The WTC will also grace the skyline in full glory. When we get there the Conductor will let me be the conductor.
What I am trying to say is install a walk way utiziling the old shuttle trackage and create a path connecting the two stations, what this will enable those east side riders to get on South Ferry Station and walk to Bowling Green, it allows a warm walkway in the Winter, a cool walkway in the summer, and something to protect the elements. Its 3 blocks long yes, but the path connecting the A,C,E, to the Times Square Station is just as long. I think it would be used heavily. We could connect all 3 downtown stops. The 1,9 South Ferry, the N,R at Whitehall, and the 4,5 at bowling Green. Then access to the rest of the city is feasable without making the transfer at Times Square or walking in the street.
Any Ideas or takers?
How will the (5) make turnaround trips to go north?????
I was thinking the same thing but that is my question.
If the PA transfer station is built, the transfer would be available just two stops north. I think that complex should include free subway to subway transfers.
There is talk about a 4 track station at South Ferry with both the 1's and 5's terminating there. I don't have the plans in my hand but this is what I have heard from several supervisory positions.
>>There is talk about a 4 track station at South Ferry with both the 1's and 5's terminating there. I don't have the plans in my hand but this is what I have heard from several supervisory positions<<
That sounds similar to what I heard from a good unnamed source. I was told of a three track South Ferry station built next to the current loop station. Leaving the old South Ferry station for misc. moves etc.
Another option I also heard was for a four track South Ferry station for the #1 and #7 Flushing Line !! That's if they wanted to extend it past Javits Center down the west side to South Ferry. That would be rediculous making the #7 way too long. I think we need a subway on the east side more than another one on the west side.
Oh well, those are the crazy ideas hatched stuffy offices.
Bill "Newkirk"
True, 2nd Av is a higher priority than 10th Av, but it'd sure be a good idea to extend the 7 down 10th Av. Perhaps any 4-track stub terminal should be built closer to the Broadway Line at Whitehall.
A ternminal station for the 5 at South Ferry seems like it would be a logistical pain in the butt.
To handle 10-car trains, the station would have to be at least 515-feet long, or roughly two standard NYC blocks. If you put the bumper block wall of the station where the current loop is, running the station two blocks north gives you just one block not only for an X crossover switch so that trains could access either track (assuming center platform configuration), but another X so that Lex and Seventh Ave. tracks would have access to each other (I suppose you could keep the loop for GOs and other switching, but no one has yet explained to me where the Lex platform could go if you did that).
After the two crossovers, the tracks to the Lex would then have to diverge, with one conecting into the Brooklyn-bound expess tracks, while the other hooks into the uptown tracks. I don't see how you can squeeze all of that into the area between South Ferry and the Bowling Green platform.
A 10-car non-loop island platform for the 1/9 trains would be possible, because there's tons of space between SF and Rector, and you could maintain the loop that way by tying the track on the east (north) side of the platform into it, but I don't see how you can do that and still have enough space to add a Lex terminal for the 5 train (let alone the problem of what to run there during rush hours when the 5 goes to Flatbush).
It does seem silly to have the 5 stop at Bowling Green and again at a new S Ferry station. Might as well keep the loops for non-rev purposes.
The walk from Bowling Green to S Ferry isn't particularly burdensome. How about a sheltered passageway between a new 1/9 station and Bowling Green? More benefit for the ferry riders than for free transfers between 4/5 and 1/9, but still useful.
I suppose you could build a passageway from the front end of the SF station to the rear end of the uptown IRT Bowling Green station and keep the walkway on the same level without having to worry about any tracks getting in the way. Getting one to the Brooklyn-bound platform would require dropping it down a level, since that platform is in-between the two tracks, and with the rebuilding of the SI Ferry terminal (and the tight access at SF on the 1/9 anyway), the MTA would probably want any passageway to have its own fare control zone near or inside the terminal.
I suppose you could build a passageway from the front end of the SF station to the rear end of the uptown IRT Bowling Green station and keep the walkway on the same level without having to worry about any tracks getting in the way.
A moving walkway could make the trip even easier. Such a contraption at 23rd-Ely seems to be working okay so far.
Just bring back the shuttle.
I think this rebuild of South Ferry is going to happen. It's not just speculation. I've heard that they are going to put in a crossover after Rector so that when the line reopens, Rector will be the temporary terminal. That will allow them to rebuild the South Ferry station into a normal station (keeping the loop). I haven't heard anything about the 5 terminating there also. It doesn't sound like a bad idea though, why wouldn't they extend the 5 one station to the new terminal. If anything it would provide a transfer between the two lines.
The problem with extending the 5 to South Ferry is the same one we discussed right after 9/11, when it was proposed to reroute the 5 along the outer loop so South Ferry passengers would stll have access to a train (transfer at Fulton for the 1 or the 2). With the 5 going to Brooklyn during AM and PM rush, that means you have no trains serving the station when trains are needed the most to serve the station. And there just isn't enough track capacity during rush hours between Bklyn Bridge and Bowling Green to extend the No. 6 train down there.
If there's enough room between the inner loop/outer loop switches to add on another 260 feet of platform at South Ferry (and some people on the board have said there is) then it can be extended to a 10 car station, though the platform extenders would remain and they'd probably need to install closed circuit camers so the C/R could see all the cars). Or as I said, they could build a island platform at SF using the back end of the outer loop track's platform for part of the new platform. That would allow for a straighter overall platform and keep the connection with the Lex, though the switch between the inner and outer loop again could cause problems.
The issue isn't identical. If the 5 were extended to South Ferry today, the station would have to be closed every rush hour. Once the 1 returns to South Ferry, it would continue to serve it at all times, so the station would always be open, only not served rush hours by the 5.
The 10-car marker for the switches from the inner track comes before the platform. That means that a full 15-car train (!) could fit between the switches and the current front of the platform, and a few more cars could fit past the front of the platform as well. There is more than ample space to extend the current South Ferry platform. That would be the best plan, IMO; other plans risk reducing capacity on the line.
How about making it a Subway, Bus and Ferry terminal complex.They are planning to renovate the South Ferry terminal anyway.Why not just build a complex?
"Planning"?
The new terminal is about 1/3 built. From the mockup drawings it looks like it won't be half bad. Too bad they won't have a 1-9, N-R transfer (but you are supposed to be able to get into the terminal from either line without going outside).
You can't take out the shuttle track as it is not just for the shuttle, but it an important non-revenue connector. If something happens to S/B 1/9 traffic they can run trains down the 4/5/6 and then get onto the 1/9 N/B.
Are you assuming that the tunnels are cool in August?
Save me the loop!
The old shuttle trackage is still used by midday and weekend 5 trains. How do you think they turn at Bowling Green?
When (If) they ever update those things, I think they should do the following:
Add the announcements for the 2 via Lex and 5 via 7th. The announcement would be something like this:
F: This is a Bronx-bound 5 train via 7th Avenue. The next stop is ..." In between stations on a timer triggered basis, it would announce M: "Attention customers, this train is operating via 7th Avenue due to (reason). If you need suggestions for an alternate route, please ask any uniformed employee. We apologize for any inconvienence and thank you for riding the MTA."
Only announce 6 local and 2 express where it matters. I don't want to be told this is a 6 local at Cypress Avenue, there are no 6 express trains to get on anyway. I have calculated that it takes approximately .5 seconds to say the word "local" and to remove it at the 9 stops between 177th and 3rd Avenue (except Hunters Point) would save almost 5 seconds per run. Five seconds is half of the dwell time for WMATA, maybe about a third to a fourth of the time at most stations in NYC. It does add up, especially on the all local 2. Since it says express even at stations like Fulton, it could save almost 10 seconds per run (I left it in at Chambers, 14th, 34th, 42nd, 72nd, and 96th, do the math to figure out how much time is saved by removing those).
Redo the program so that the trains do this:
F: This is a Bronx-bound 6 train. The next st-
M: Stand clear of the closing doors please!
(Ding-dong, doors close, train begins to move)
F: The next stop is 68th Street-Hunter College.
Don't have it do this:
F: This is a Parkchester-bound 6 local train. The next stop is Parkchester-East 177th Street.
It is repetitive and is about as bad as that WMATA T/O I described earlier in the week.
Allow the T/O to customize the route, stations, etc.
I can't think of any others but if I do, I will post them.
Please post your comments, opinions, etc.
Your ideas sound good. In addition to that, I would like to hear different voices for the "stand clear of the closing doors, please" announcement. This REALLY gets annoying and repetitive, especially if you have a long ride on a local. Why not add some celebrity voices like the taxicabs have, or at least have a few different non-celebrity voices, and rotate them so you hear a few different voices while you are on the train. -Nick
Oh PLEASE! The taxicab tapes with Donald Duck and the Rockettes are irritating as hell ... I have tried to TIP the driver to pitch the tape out the window but none of them has the stones. TLC is mighty scary these days I think.
But that "Watch the closing doors please" sounds like frigging Mister Ed, the talking horse, admonishing WILBUR. Sheesh. I'd much rather hear broken English, or for a REAL nostalgia ride, "Mrfbg-glibitz-shmoomrat-dugga-buppa-BING-BONG!" I'm sorry ... nothing else will do. If you don't know where you are, look at the damned map like New Yorkers did for 100 years. :)
LOL!!
I don't need to look at a map, I am talking about a closing doors announcement :-)
Funny how you think the taxicabs are scary, yet you are asking for "broken english" on the subways...do I smell a bit of irony here?? -Nick
I prefer "broken english" in cabs as well ... recordings irritate me, it's like those telemarketers ... "please stand by for an important phone call. Please remain on the line for the next available operator." Hell, if the call was so important, talk to me fer krissakes.
I think the city GREATLY overreacted to that moron John Rocker. I can understand "42nd st" with a Hindi accent, or "Broadway" in a Russian overtone. Ain't no big thing. I always preferred da city nice and crusty like a fresh bread. Folks don't come to NYC for velveeta. Or do they? :)
On trains with manual announcements, the Conductor is supposed to make the same door closing announcement at every stop (except the last one, naturally). What's the difference if the announcement is made by an automated system?
David
"On trains with manual announcements, the Conductor is supposed to make the same door closing announcement at every stop (except the last one, naturally). What's the difference if the announcement is made by an automated system?"
Well, at least the conductor can change his voice tone, and lots of the time the announcements are quiet and/or mumbled so it doesn't matter much anyways. But now we have clear, automated announcements (which for the most part is a very good thing), but hearing the same recording can get annoying. -Nick
Maybe different people for the individual lines, for example all the announcements on the 2 are done by the lady, all the announcements on the 6 by the man, and all the announcements on the L by that other lady. The alternating thing bothers me, especially on the L since the guy doesn't announce the transfers. Either have him say something or nothing at all.
He still says "Stand clear of the closing doors", "This is the last stop on this train" and "We apologize for the unavoidable delay."
Hardly anything in comparison to the R142 and R142A. Does he really say "we apologize for the unavoidable delay"? I heard on the R142A once he said "we are being held here by the train's dispatcher".
"Does he really say "we apologize for the unavoidable delay"?"
Yes, he really does say this...I've heard it myself. -Nick
I guess the TA tells him what to say, it sounds like what they would tell a human conductor to say.
"I guess the TA tells him what to say, it sounds like what they would tell a human conductor to say."
Exactly, and with one recording annunciation is guaranteed every time! -Nick
Announcements for the next stop while the train was in motion was done on the R110A. But it also made the next stop announcemnt while in the station. Something like this
(All voices female)
"This is a Manhattan-bound 2 train. The next stop is Allerton Avenue."
"Stand clear of the closing doors." (Bee-bee-bee-beep - Yes, they made that sound!)
(Train starts moving)
"The next stop is Allerton Avenue."
Now that's repetitive!
The next stop announcement is repetitive when you're at the next-to-last stop. It should go like this:
F: "This is Nereid." (Yes, I think Avenue, Road, Blvd and Street should not be announced at name stations.)
Doors open.
F: "The next and last stop on this train is 241st Street."
M: "Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
Ding-dong!
My idea was only to repeat the station name if it wasn't announced in the station. I don't care to hear it twice either. With the technology available, to design a program that can figure out if a certain point in the announcement was reached shouldn't be too hard.
Street, Blvd, Road, etc are needed. You are going to confuse people quite a bit with names like Hunters Point (6 and 7) and 23rd (there are two stops on the E with that name and other lines stop on 23rd as well).
How is this for the last stop?
F: This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 train.
M: Stand clear of the closing doors!
(doors close)
F: Pelham Bay Park will be next, the last stop for this train.
Actually on the 6 it's Hunts Point, not Hunters Point. I would keep Avenue, Street, etc, for lettered and numbered street stations (Avenue H, Avenue I, 14th Street, 23rd Street, etc). But for named streets (Fordham Road, Myrtle Avenue, Dyckman Street), you really don't need to have Avenue, Road, etc, announced.
I suppose it doesn't really matter, you don't save that much time by not saying Avenue, Road or Street. But it can't be that confusing, because Chicago, Philadelphia and London have stations with the same name on different lines. For example Philly has stations called Allegheny, Girard and Spring Garden on both the Broad Street Subway and the Market-Frankford El. I don't think people get confused by that.
They also only have two subway lines. NYC has 25. For example, if you are at Lexington Avenue on the E and V, you can get to 3 different 23rd something stations. There are multiple names for other stations as well. In Philly, there is only one station you can be at and get to both Spring Gardens without changing trains.
Also, you need to be consistent. Even though the signs at stations show the word Street at the numbered stations in Philly, the maps don't. You can't just show the numbers on the NYC map because it will confuse people. They do leave off the word street to save space at several stations, such as Chambers.
I'm sorry that this is off-topic, but I'm so happy that I was selected as one of the semifinalists in the Intel Science Talent Search! If any of you might take note, my school, Stuyvesant High School had 15 of the nation's 300 semifinalists and the second most in the country. We appeared in today's edition of the New York Times (Metro section page B3), Daily News, and Newsday (we're on the cover!!! of the New York City edition) and several chinese-language newspapers. We were also on NY1 and FOX5 news yesterday. For anyone who is curious, my project was a neuroscience topic concerning biological mechanisms of learning and memory. You can see my paper at http://www.nyrail.org/neuro/INTEL.doc.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Congrats, guy! Sorry you published in Microsoft Word format - your version is incompatible with the older one we use here but I'm sure it's quite deep.
Congratulations... As much as the teacher body has changed since I left (usually you only expect the student body to change that quickly), its good to know most else is the same :)
Tugrul Galatali, Stuy Class of 99
Hey, since when have you been hanging around here? Mike asked about you a few days ago, where have you been hiding? Still sticking with the shorts?
Mark
Sleep is a overrides everything but school and money. Getting up at some obscene hour in the morning to visit Stuy usually fails :)
Anyway, this is probably inappropriate here... torule@aim.
Congratulations, Daniel. You have a wonderful future and will make the world a better place.
If I wasn't from Hunter I'd congratulate you...
aw who'm I kidding, congrats on the good work.
so GOOD ON YOU!
Fabulous work. My wife is a pediatric neurologist. She'll enjoy looking through it.
Best of luck with your continued studies. You've got a foot into bioinformatics, definitely a happening field...
RonInBayside
Beverly Hills High School (Calif), Class of '79
If my mother hadn't detested cold weather, we might not have moved and I might have been in high school in New York, too...
Cool! That's very good news. And it's especially nice to see that Stuyvesant has done so well - for reasons too obvious to mention, this hasn't been a particularly good year for the school.
meant GOOD on YOU.
Sincere congrats Dan
Oh, those fond memories of high school. I too went to the infamous Stuyvesant...either location, either the old one or the new location, the beloved N would take you there....I entered that competition too, but it was still called the Westinghouse Science competition - does anybody remember that...then there was this year some girl did an actual project with respect to the slope of a subway platform and light reflection...she got some recognition...anyway, for my year, they were into either the social sciences or the environment...anyway, kudos for your effort. Walk straight to City Hall station, hop on an N train and celebrate...
SeaBeach53
I remember the Westinghouse Talent Search...and bringing my project to the school office a week ahead of the deadline...and then the Snail Mail delaying it so that all I got was a great "sorry, but it got here too late" letter!
Snail mail...the reason that email and faxes are so popular!
Chip
SI Tech '89
Congratulations! I guess you don't spend all your time railfanning ;-)
That's really something to be proud of. Congratulations! I even feel that some of the dignity rubs off on Subtalk.
It is something to be PROUD of. Congrats!!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
Even though I can't speak for SciGuy I feel happy for you. Congradulations
I notice that BVE considers "stations" when passing on the express track. How if you can fix this?
What you do is open up the rw. file and look at the times posted, then where the departure times are change that to the letter "L" and adjust the times or you will be caught by signals. Thats it.
Thanks!
You must have one of those ones from the "MSN" site - there were a number of routes that were not properly done and the only solution is to edit the ROUTE files (*.RW or *.CSV) ... it has a "1" for stop, change that to 0 and it becomes a "skip stop" ... but the reason for the problem is author headspace error ... the position is the one just before "ats" in the @station(name, etc) statements ... the route files are in plain text so any text editor will let you get in there and fix them ...
OK thanks I'll try that. Those signals were really ruining the express runs. Thanks!
Gee ... sounds like REALITY mode to me. :)
Under TMO's auspices,
I would SO like to make 5th Avenue a skip-stop
since I can BARELY get past it without BVE
halting me with a Script Error....
Whereas I can easily click on any given station
on the right top corner trip itinerary and
am transformed to that station in a zip!
Heh. Nah, can't do THAT with BVE as designed. Ernie Alstom's #7 line is FLAWLESS ... if you're getting an error, something's seriously wrong. Many folks who encounter script errors (and aren't running some of those crappy E, Q, D and B lines) are likely encountering them because they haven't downloaded and installed the "oldstruct" libraries which contain some "default objects" ...
The BVE Helper site might be useful if you haven't already installed the required "oldstruct" objects ... go here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/bve_inst.htm
The "Flushing line" is one of just a handful of REALLY well done NYC subway routes for BVE ... if you're getting errors, something's missing, most likely oldstruct. My ONLY complaint with the Flushing line route is that the timers are way too slow. You end up coming up to each automatic and just sitting there pretty much all the way to QBP. Then again, the real thing is like this.
If you skip 5th Avenue, expect to sit and rot at GCT and then follow the reds all the way through Steinway. One thing about BVE is that there is a train AHEAD of you ON schedule ... run too fast and you're going to hit it or rot behind the timers.
To make 5th an express, you need to change the "1" to a "0" so that it's not a required stop. You'll need to fish back along this thread for where I went into the specifics ... but it CAN be done.
ALSO ... HIGHLY recommend obtaining the NEW BVE 2.01 file from Mackoy - the signals are MUCH nicer and the graphic plots are tighter. The 2.01 update was required for that crappy Windows XPee version but the enhancements are nice to have anyway ...
How can you? Can someone tell me how so I can run the (7)or even the (B) train? It would be really fun to drive as the <7> or (11).
Not possible without rewriting the entire file. That'll take a while.
My mother was talking to me about this old newspaper where it showed kids living in the abandoned parts of the subways after running away from home. Even though this was nearly 30 years ago can there still be runaway kids hiding in the subway(It's not hard to get into the Chrystie street connector and the 63 street connector isn't so secure)? And while were on subway security is it possible terrorist are hiding explosives in abandoned portions of the subway(not to sound paranoid)?
I heard from someone today that it is now a federal offense to commit such an act on board public transporation.
No run away kids, or any other homeless, can be found in large quantities in the subway tunnels today.
bombs can go anywhere, if you want to be paranoid. someone can carry a bomb in their shoe, bag, etc onto a train or bus. how many buses in israel get bombed in such a manner?
Sure, it is possible but for various reasons I certainly don't think it's likely that abandoned portions of the subway would be used by terrorists as a bomb storage depot. Even placing bombs for the purpose of detonation in the abandoned parts of the subway is self defeating on account of being abandoned.
-Robert King
What about the mole people?
There was a movie years ago called "C.H.U.D.". Wasn't that about the mole people?
Mr. Night Train Show, C.H.U.D is Canaballistic Humanoid Underground Deweller. Its about nuclear waste being dumped in the sewers of NYC and the homeless get radiation sickness and attack the people above ground.
That is how i got my nickname chud cause i did not shave one day and my friends said i looked like a C.H.U.D.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
>>>...my friends said i looked like a C.H.U.D. <<<
Charlie, I've known you a number of years (way before this message board as a mattter of fact) and you look nothing like a C.H.U.D., shaven or unshaven.
Peace,
ANDEE
To answer the first post as well as the Mole People Post
first-
even Transit employees who have access to tracks must show their pass and another photo ID to the police officer(s) on duty at river tubes and other key locations and sign a log kept by the police.Also at many stations police even ask Station Agents for their pass number, badge number and a photo ID before even we are allowed to enter a booth or if already in the booth relieving or escorting, the officer will ask to see the pass,badge, etc. of all in the booth.
While the system is not 100% foolproof neither is your house ro the local fast food place. Security haqs been tightened so employees at Jay Street or Livingston cannot have any deliveries of flowers, candy, etc. since "the package can be used to hide harmful substances." Also, employees using the subway entrance to 270 Jay must have their bags searched and their pass visible over their outermost layer of clothing and the public must use the street entrance as pass through metal detectors. NYPD Officers are also present at both entrances in addition to the PPA (Propery Protection Agent- "Security guard").
Mr. reuter has also directed all employees outside of station booths (including Lunch reliefs) wear orange vests for easy identification. We are also instructed to report unattended packages and to report suspicious activity and persons such as persons entering or leaving non-public areas. I personally have challenged persons for their pass (which is per rules) and have reported some non-employees to the police which promptly ejected and ticketed the p[erson.
Further security measures are planned as well as some we dont know about.
Second-
as far as emergency exits, they are now alarmed and police respond when an emergency exit is opened. key rooms are also alarmed.
Third-
Mole people--See Brennan's Guide to disused stations for a discussion of this subject. Sure there are people living int unnels but there are no secret levels as mentioned in the book. Professor Brennan did extensive research to disprove the book " The Mole People."
Fourth- Police do ride trains, including in the cab of full cabs to check tunnels. All employees are instructed to immediately report the unusual- As Transit has told us " You are the Eyes and Ears Network" of the system. I have gotten compliments from supervisors asnd suprientendents for my awareness of system conditions. (and have told them "I am reporting this condition as per the rules or as per safety tip of the day for a certain date.)
This is alll the information I have and/or am free to reveal. I will not respond to posts on-site or via e-mail asking for details. (I might report suspicious e-mails if they make a threat- I'd have to report such activity but so far have had no such mail.)
Whenever I take Queens-bound 7 trains at the Times Sq. station, I notice tracks in the opposite direction. Where do they go and do they hold potential for transfers or connections anytime soon?
It's only a pair of tail tracks that go west to 8th Ave, ending at approximately the east wall of the 8th Ave. IND lower level. The tracks don't connect to anything else.
Supposely Then Mayor Hylan odered the building of the lower level tracks at 42/8 to prevent the IRT from extending the line to 11 Ave.
We've actually been talking about these tracks off and on over the last few months.
They're tail tracks, whose purpose is to allow trains to enter Times Square at a decent rate of speed. In the event of an incident in which the train fails to stop (or be stopped) at the end of the platform, there is room to stop the train without damaging anything. The tracks don't extend very far, though...couple hundred feet, maybe. Terminal stations without tail tracks usually have time signals set for a very slow speed to ensure that the train makes a proper stop -- if everything else fails, the train will hit a "bumping block," which will cause some damage but not as much as would happen without the "bumping block" there.
David
>>Whenever I take Queens-bound 7 trains at the Times Sq. station, I notice tracks in the opposite direction. Where do they go and do they hold potential for transfers or connections anytime soon?<<
If you're talking about the tracks on the west end of the Times square station, they go about one train lenght or so and dead end. That's for layups or taking out a bad order train so as not to tie things up during the rush hour. I don't know if they still use these tracks or not.
As far as future use, there is talk about extending the #7 line past Times Square to Jacob Javits Center which has no subway coverage.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for clearing it up.
The tracks only hold up to 8 cars, the last 3 stay in the station. They uses these tracks when heave snow the forcasted. At this point all train in the 7 line are laid up to GC Station on both tracks. All station in between are closed and trains use one track in GS to meet up with the Shuttle. I got this from some T/O who have worked on the 7 line before.
Robert
>>The tracks only hold up to 8 cars, the last 3 stay in the station.<<
I guess that explains why I never saw any trains layed up on those tracks. I was on an ERA fantrip years ago, I guess the LOW-Vs were being used. The special proceeded past Times Square to he bumping block. I never saw what it looked like with a wall of railfans at the front window !
Bill "Newkirk"
As I recall when I looked past, I don't think that it was electrified...
I think that's a crossover switch.
There might be one there.
Well if you mean looking WEST of Times Square those are just tail tracks. One day the 7 may be extended, but who knows?
One more question, many people have already mentioned of plans of extending the 7 to the Javits center. How would the MTA get a big drill down there? If they use another method, then how do they do it?
>>>How would the MTA get a big drill down there?<<
They would most likely just ride one in on the existing line.
Peace,
ANDEE
From Metro's Website:
For Immediate Release:
January 17, 2002
What's new for Metro in 2002
With the new year just beginning, Metro is looking ahead with new services, new challenges, and continuing dedication by providing the best level of transportation services found anywhere in the United States.
"With 2001 completed, Metro is looking ahead to 2002 with optimism and a continued commitment to being an integral part of the national capital region by providing safe, reliable, convenient, and cost-effective transit service," stated Metro's Chief Executive Officer Richard A. White.
"This year, we will receive new rail cars and new buses," said Mr. White. "Construction has already started and is expected to intensify later this year on our New York Avenue rail station on the Red Line and the Blue Line extension to Largo, Maryland. And we are continuing to work through a challenging time in the aftermath of September 11, as safety and security issues remain a key issue for all of us. This year we are aggressively moving ahead with the implementation of new security enhancements recently funded by the U.S. Congress and the White House."
Here are a few examples of what Metro has planned in 2002:
Metrorail:
• Throughout the year, Metro will continue to take delivery of its new Series 5000 railcars. The cars, which came on line last August 2001, are operating at this time on the Green Line. Metro has accepted 28 of these new railcars, and expects to have approximately two-thirds of these cars in service throughout the entire system by the end of 2002, and the entire fleet of 192 new railcars in service by spring 2003.
• This spring, Metro expects to award three major contracts to complete by the end of 2004 construction for the Red Line New York Avenue Metrorail station, and for the Blue Line extension to Largo. Preliminary construction activities for both the New York Avenue and Largo facilities are currently underway.
• Beginning this year, the award of a design-build contract for an additional 1,000-parking space structure at the Franconia-Springfield Metrorail station. Groundbreaking is anticipated in the spring 2002, with full completion of the parking structure by summer 2003.
• This summer, Metro expects to award a contract for its new Series 6000 railcars. The 68 new rail cars (with an option order for an additional 120 cars, depending on funding availability) will be allocated for system expansion and for anticipated service growth. The first new cars are currently projected to arrive on Metro property by the end of 2004.
• This summer, Metro expects to begin construction for new canopies to be placed over exposed escalator entrances at Metro stations to protect customers and escalator equipment from inclement weather. The total cost of the program is approximately $27 million. Metro expects to have canopies constructed at three stations (one each in the District of Columbia, Maryland and Virginia) by the end of 2002 and the entire project completed by 2005. Last summer, Metro's Board of Directors selected the design concept of Lourie & Chenoweth, LLC., as its choice for the Comprehensive Escalator Canopy Program Design Selection.
• Throughout the year, as part of its continuing efforts to rehabilitate and repair the elevators and escalators in the Metrorail system, Metro will rehabilitate four elevators and conduct ADA upgrades on 67 others. It will also complete comb plate repairs on 148 escalators while modernizing 50 others. Elevator rehabilitations will occur at the Medical Center, Pentagon City, Cheverly, Archives, and Gallery Place-Chinatown stations. Escalator modernizations and repairs will occur at Rosslyn, Farragut North, Metro Center, Van Ness-UDC, Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan, Pentagon and L'Enfant Plaza. These are in addition to 10 elevator rehabilitations and 43 elevator ADA upgrades, plus 51 escalator modernizations and 165 comb plate repairs, that were completed last year under Metro's multi-year program.
• This fall, construction will be completed for Metro's new Branch Avenue rail yard, located in Prince George's County, Maryland. This new yard will have storage tracks designed for 178 railcars along with a new railcar wash facility.
In addition, pending Board approval, Metro's proposed Capital Improvement Program for Fiscal Year 2003 (July 1, 2002-June 30, 2003) calls for the following Metro enhancements:
• A public hearing on general plans and an environmental evaluation on the construction of a new mezzanine, second entrance, and additional elevators and escalators at the Ballston-MU Metrorail station to handle the increasing number of customers in the growing Ballston neighborhood.
• A public hearing on general plans, an environmental study, and the completion of a new second entrance to the existing King Street Metrorail station on the mezzanine level to enlarge the station's capacity to handle increased ridership.
• Local community meetings on the design of an escalator canopy and adjacent Metropark improvements at the Clarendon Metrorail station.
• Public hearings, environmental studies, and award of design-build contracts for new parking structures at the West Falls Church (1,000 spaces), College Park (1,200 spaces) and New Carrollton (1,800 spaces) Metrorail stations.
• By fall 2002, complete structural construction and begin escalator and elevator communications installations for the projected completion of the expanded entrance at the Mount Vernon Square/Convention Center Station in early 2003.
Metrobus:
• Metro is now taking delivery of its new Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) buses. Metro expects to have the first 10 CNG buses in service by February 2002, a total of 38 buses in service by April 2002, and all 164 in service by August 2002.
• In addition to the 164 new CNG buses, Metro expects to take delivery by this October 2002 of 21 sixty-foot, articulated Neoplan USA buses. These buses will replace the current, aging 1983 M.A.N. articulated buses. Further, Metro expects to award a contract for a new order of 100 additional buses later this calendar year.
• Metro will install a new bus farebox system on all Metrobuses by the end of 2002 under an existing contract. The $20 million contract for the new fareboxes will provide the foundation for a seamless, regional, "smart" fare system with the replacement of the old fareboxes. The new fareboxes will have the ability to accept SmarTrip cards, which are currently available to customers utilizing the Metrorail system. SmarTrip cards are permanent, rechargeable farecards which are plastic -- just like regular credit cards -- and embedded with a computer chip that keeps track of the value of the card. In addition to accepting Metro's SmarTrip cards, the new fareboxes will also continue to accept cash fares.
Safety and Security Improvements
As part of its ongoing efforts to improve safety and security in the Metro system post-September 11, the White House and the United States Congress have thus far provided $49 million in emergency funding. In 2002, Metro will utilize this money to purchase, upgrade, and enhance the following safety and security measures:
• Provide enhanced Metro Transit Police presence with the addition of eight Explosive Detection Canine teams including necessary training and procurement of support vehicles. The first three canine teams will be available in late January 2002 and the remaining five available in October 2002.
• Provide for a continuity of Operations Command Center in the event of a failure at Metro's primary Command Center. Location and outfitting of an alternate site will be completed by the end of the year.
• Enhance security at Metro facilities by installing an employee ID entry system as well as the installation of vehicular gates. Expected completion date for all locations is fall 2002.
• Introduce pilot program by placing digital security cameras and recorders inside 100 Metrobuses. Procurement is expected by late spring 2002, with full installation completion by the end of the year.
• Install 175 bomb-resistant trash containers in the "free" areas of all 83 rail stations. Expected placement of bomb resistant trash containers is June 2002.
• Provide an Automatic Vehicle Locator (AVL) system for all buses in the fleet to pinpoint their exact location. This will take place under Metro's existing radio system contract and in accordance with the installation of new radios on the Metrobus fleet. Installation of the first AVL units is expected to start in summer 2002 and be completed by the fall of 2003.
• Provide personal protective equipment and training for 5,000 front line Metro employees in the various operating departments. All front line employees are expected to have this equipment and be fully trained by December 2002.
• Install programable intrusion equipment to alert police of the exact location of any unauthorized intrusion into the Metro system. Installation of first units is expected in summer 2002.
• Expand Metro's chemical sensor program. Sensors are currently installed at two undisclosed stations. This project will expand to 10 additional stations. Installation should be completed by December 2002.
• Install closed-circuit television (CCTV) and motion detection alarms for Metrorail shop facilities and rail yards. Installation expected to begin in summer 2002 and be completed by the December 2002.
• Complete the installation of a Metrorail fiber-optic infrastructure network vital for video recording devices and for other data communications purposes. Installation is expected to begin in summer 2002.
"Thanks to this commitment of $49 million from the Congress and the White House, we will be able to make our safe Metro system even safer for the more than one million customers who ride our buses and trains each weekday," said Mr. White. "We are a vital component of the region's emergency response, transportation, and evacuation system. This $49 million commitment is paramount in our ongoing efforts to maintain and preserve our well-deserved reputation as the nation's safest transit system."
• In another effort to improve safety and security, Metro will spend $2.3 million on video recording equipment for the 1,900 CCTV cameras in its Metrorail stations. Currently, the monitors are used by station managers to help them observe activity in the stations. The funding is covered by a $2.3 million credit that Metro received from Potomac Electric Power Company. Metro expects to have the first 14 stations wired for recording services by the end of January 2002 with the remaining stations completed by fall 2002.
Radio Communications
By this fall 2002, Metro is expected to complete above and below ground infrastructure enhancements for its fully integrated 490MHz Comprehensive Radio Communications System designed to provide Metro with a complete radio communications system for the Metro Transit Police, bus, rail, and maintenance departments. One main component of the new system will include new user equipment featuring more than 1,900 Motorola portable radios for police, operations supervisory personnel, and maintenance personnel; more than 3,000 mobile radios for bus and rail maintenance personnel; more than 50 Motorola mobile data terminals which will allow Transit Police direct access to state and federal crime databases from motor vehicles, and over 2,000 pagers for maintenance and operations personnel. The new system also will include 29 Motorola dispatch consoles.
Metro expects the following completion dates for this project:
• By this fall 2002, complete above-and below-ground infrastructure.
• By the end of 2002, complete installation of Metro Transit Police Department radios and mobile data terminals.
• Start installation of maintenance radios in 2002 and complete in spring 2003.
• Start installation of bus radios in 2002 and complete in fall 2003.
• Start installation of rail radios in 2002 and complete by the end of 2003.
"We have a lot of exciting projects planned for Metro in 2002," said Mr. White. "As an organization, I believe we have four key priorities for this year. One, the continued safety and security of the Metro system. We already lead the nation and the world in this area, and we must do everything possible to live up to that reputation in 2002. Two, putting together a strategic plan for securing the funding we need in the years ahead to repair, replace, and rehabilitate the Metro system, as well as to accommodate growing ridership and system expansion. Three, the implementation of a $55 million initiative to replace all of the key business systems within our organization, including financial management and capital program management, material management and maintenance, bus and rail scheduling, and personnel and payroll. And four, continue the culture change process so we become a much stronger internal organization that is better able to meet our external customers' needs."
Metro's fiscal year 2002 Budget (July 1, 2001 through June 30, 2002) calls for the operating budget to provide for revenues of $436 million, operating expenses of $796 million, and a gross subsidy requirement from the local jurisdictions of $360 million.
The Capital Improvement Program budget was approved by the Board at a mark of $1.1 billion. Together, these budgets represent a total of $1.9 billion, and fund 9,964 positions at Metro.
The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) was created by an interstate compact in1967 to plan, develop, build, finance, and operate a balanced regional transportation system in the national capital area. The Authority began building its rail system in 1969, acquired four regional bus systems in 1973, and began operating the first phase of Metrorail in 1976.
Today, Metrorail serves 83 stations and has 103 miles of track. A fleet of 772 rail cars provides service from 5:30 a.m. to midnight Monday through Thursday, 5:30 a.m. to 2 a.m. on Friday, 8 a.m. to 2 a.m. on Saturday, and 8 a.m. to midnight on Sunday.
Metrobus serves the nation's capital 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week with 1,443 buses. Metrorail and Metrobus serve a population of 3.4 million within a 1500 square mile jurisdiction. For more information about Metro, including schedules and fares, visit Metro's Web site at www.metroopensdoors.com.
---END---
All I can say is I hope CAF doesn't get the 6000 Series cars. Maybe Breda will bid and win this time. I haven't been on the 5000 Series but it only took forever and a day for them to arrive.
certainly well written PR verbiage.
1 CAF, BREDA? don't care so long as the quality assurance team from Metro lives at the factory.
2 DEMAND earlier AM service on Saturdays/Sundays NOW, 24/7 soon
3 It is impressive that it will take TWO YEARS to buld a station @ NY Ave.
We can't do 24/7 service without extensive single tracking which would be hard to coordinate. I propose a system of buses instead.
NOT TRUE!
Think, on any given night how many different track segments are being worked on? Certainly not many. This we can't run at night because of maintenance crap is a racist and ageist sham--real subways like NY and Chicago provide at least skeletal service for people who do not turn into pumpkins at midnight. For those of us who don't drive, having Cinderella Liberty is both insulting and constraining. Think about a music show, the headliner comes on at 11 or so planning to play til 2, you who have paid full admission have to leave at 11:30 or so to make the 'last train ' around midnight. All for maintenance work on maybe one line at a time? Surely single tracking with a train even every half hour would be adequate.
I am sure it would be adequete but if they could run buses instead, it might be easier on everyone. I don't think Metro ever considered doing that though.
NO! a bus from downtown--Union Station for example-to Rockville, even with signal preempts will take forever even in low overnght traffic. That is why we build exclusive ROW systems. As a stop gap measure, perhaps a network of express buses would be a good start, but my point remains--Metro is failing to serve its riders both overnight (at least they have given them "extended" hours on Friday and Saturday nights), and on weekend mornings. Think about either arriving on a red-eye at DCA or trying to take an early morning outbound flight. My last trip east, I was on an vening flight back to Oakland which was late enough to put me on the very last BART train from the airport station. Utherwise a thirty dollar cab ride. YUM.
The weekend morning thing is ridiculous. I think they should open 90 minutes earlier then.
You write Metro if you are so concerned. The person who advocated for the later closings is now the First Vice President of the Board.
I'm sure if they could get the funding, they would do so. They are already facing a $15 million shortfall. But 6 or 6:30 on weekends is the least they should do and then maybe extend service to 2AM all the time. Right now, even though fares are varied and can cost quite a bit for a one way rush hour fare, they only cover about half, if that much, of the total operating expenses to run it.
farebox recovery is a joke. particularly given that 60 % of rides are .9 miles (source washpost). if the funding is the issue why does mgmt. cite the mintenance window? We get the same lies from BART, whose staff are very suburb oriented. They have no interest in late night activities.
There definitely is a market out there for all night service. I've been on the last train at 2:06 from Metro Center and its very crowded, not SRO, but more than some Sunday afternoon trips I've taken on it. It was like pulling teeth just to get this extension. I'd love for it to run all night, it would make leaving my g/f's place in Cleveland Park a whole lot easier when I don't drive up there!
The last train is crowded because it is the last train. I have never taken any of the 4 2:06 trains from Metro Center but I imagine the 1:36 (2 trains earlier) is not all that crowded.
That station is also expected to cost $83 million dollars.....just for NY AV!!
Gee, I had to read into the Press Release just to find out which Metro is was (Washington DC, Seattle, Houston, etc). But your nickname was the giveaway.
PS
Anyone have photos of the borrowed equipment in Salt Lake City yet? (WMATA - CNG Bus, DART - LRV, others?)
With that whole MetroBus Fare Box overhaul, i think they need to make it accept Metrocards as well as smartrip. Get a $5 all day pass and you can use it bus and rail. it sure beats carrying a transfer, a quarter, and exactly $1.10 in change for the return trip
It will. Tt will even let you put in a 20 dollar bill and you will get change in the form of a farecard.
I know that Boston was the first state to have rapid transit and trolleys. My question is, what was the send state to start. Just curious that is all.
Boston has the first subway in North America. However it was a subway surface (light rail) version (no third rail). That is to say the cars ran undergrounf in the center of the city then ran on the surface when it left the city's center. NYC was the first with an all underground, heavy rail system.
Boston is a city not a state (or commonwealth).
And then there is still the question of the first rapid tranist in the country, as both New York and Chicago had elevated trains for a long time before any subways opened.
Mark
NYC was the first with an all underground, heavy rail system.
Boston had underground heavy rail service using a third rail before NYC.
NYC was NOT the first with underground heavy rail.
Boston beat out New York by six years. Their first line opened in 1898.
Maybe I'm just backing up my homeland, but Boston indeed had the original US subway, and second in the world. If you define subway as it is, a fully-sub)terannean rail(way, regardless of light rail versus heavy, then the short section fully underground in Boston between Boylston and Park Street Stations via Tremont Street definitely beat out the first fully underground IRT route via Broadway by 6 years. Read your history, this was the Tremont Street Subway. 'Tis true that shortly after September 1, 1897, construction began toward making the subway also a streetcar, interurban system and elevated system, but the short time it was the dedicated Tremont St Subway, unlike Beech's which did not last, is long enough for it to be the world's second subway/US first.
Close...Glasgow and Budapest opened subways in 1896.
Mark
True. But, he's talking about U.S. subways.
Peace,
ANDEE
My apologies for the memory lapse on Glasgow, I thought Budapest was shortly after Boston, and what about London--wasn't it first or is that common misnomer of the Glasgow system?
No-one confuses Glasgow and London! The thing with London is that what one defines as underground is a big question. Is cut and cover good enough. If so the first subway in London was the Metropolitan from Paddington to Farringdon in 1863. If you only count deep tubes, then the first in London was the Northern from Stockwell to King William Street (now replaced by Bank) on 11/4/1890. HOwever, both of these predate Glasgow.
Don't forget about Paris, plus I think there are a couple of more. All in all, I believe Boston is around 7th in the world.
Paris opened on 7/19/1900
Busted by New York again. The original subway was built in secret so as not to pay kickbacks to Boss Tweed and his Tammany Hall.
Umm, I thought that had been squashed long ago on another technicality with the original subject heading, "Boston and other subways," by somebody saying that original subway only included original SUCCESFUL subway; and lest I checked straphangers aren't underneath New York on air. I mean, perhaps we could go back to 1849 and say San Fran had the first subway--picture drunk down-and-out miners joy-riding through the mines :)
i don't make things up and this was a surprise to me. What the system was ....a cylindrical car in a tunnel propelled by air pressure generated by turbines. When the car reached the end and it was time to go back, the operator engaged a signal which would reverse the air flow. It was amazing to see how glorious the stations were....I think our webhost may know more and may be able to provide a few links to the past. CI Peter
Yeah, yeah...But, it only ran for a block or two.
Peace,
ANDEE
AND it was amazing.....cost a full nickel too.
HEY, I'm a lifelong New Yawker, and I agree with you totally. Boston did have the first U.S. subway.
Peace,
ANDEE
If London is considered to have had the first subway, using steam
power, I don't see why the Park Avenue tunnel in NY is not then
also considered a subway, and it predated Tremont street by
years. There was even an underground station (86 St, I think)
in the middle of it.
Can't remember the technicalities right now but it has been on the internet that the first subway was a air forced wooden coach in a specially built tunnel in lower Manhattan....there were pics of on of the grand stations online. New York wins agian...the Yankess win...the Yankees win.... CI Peter
You are opening up a whole can of worms here by using the words "rapid transit and trolleys".
The first successful use of trolleys under electric power was in Richmond, VA. Others before worked to some extent but weren't a "successful" design. Then of course you had horsecar trolleys that moved much more rapidly then anything else in their day.
Another poster mentioned elevated rapid transit, the first were steam powered, as was LONDON's (the first subway in the World).
So, New York's IRT in 1904 was first in the USA, from the standpoint of a electric powered totally underground system. This ignores the pneumatic system in Manhattan that proceeded it (it was also unsuccessful).
Final point, there were quite a few "subway" systems that preceeded NY's outside the US.
Mr rt__:^)
By train: NY Penn Station to Providence, RI: 2 people, round trip = $240 to $320 (Acela)
By bus: $114 round trip.
Since the bus is a half hour faster (or equal to the Acela), and my mom isn't a railfan, this weekend is going to be a disappointing bus ride.
Damn!
If you had reserved earlier (7 days in advance), you could have gotten a free companion ticket on Amtrak outside of peak hours (peak hours are normally Fridays and Sundays 11am-11pm). This discount is apparently on top of any Student Advantage or Veterans Advantage discount (but not any other discounts), and applies nationwide.
Also, there is 20% discount for tickets between anywhere in the Northeast and New York as part of Paint the Town Red White and Blue, peak trains included. Actually although it says it's for Amtrak travel to/from New York, it seems to work for any Northeast (not long-distance) train even if you don't go near New York. This promotion isn't listed anywhere on the Amtrak website.
Both promotions exclude Metroliners and Acela Express.
It may be longer due to the approaching snow.
<< By train: NY Penn Station to Providence, RI: 2 people, round trip = $240 to $320 (Acela)>>
Those fares are ridiculously expensive. I know Amtrak needs to be financially self-supporting but who (except for the expense report set) will pay those fares?
You need to know how to work the promotions. It cost me $11.70 to go to Cleveland. Using student advantage off-peak it costs me 41$ to go home from Meriden to Philly. AAA membership also gives discounts. Amtrak fares are extremely inconsistant. It basically costs about $50 to go from NYC to Philly, or Newark to Philly, or New Haven to Philly or Meriden to Philly. Also, some routes are way underpriced as compared to others. For example a same day round trip on the Downeaster costs $35.
>>>It cost me $11.70 to go to Cleveland. <<<
From where?
Peace,
ANDEE
Philly.
Are you the same Jersey Mike who a few months ago chided me for asking Amtrak to make good on their service guarantee promise when they provided less than adequate service? Shame on you for not paying full fare to help keep Amtrak solvent!
On a positive note, I'm taking Acela Express to/from NYC this coming Wednesday for a business trip. It will be my 12th round trip, and total trip time will be about the same time as flying, as well as save my employer about $100 over standard airfares (my one-day, peak-time trip is not eligible for airline discounts). Plus, the suburban Boston Amtrak station is very convenient for me, and I'll be right at the A Train for a short ride to my appointment.
Yes. Not only did I get a refund for that Acela Express trip which started that whole threat, I on a pretty hefty discount myself.
>>>>Are you the same Jersey Mike who a few months ago chided me for asking Amtrak to make good on their service guarantee promise when they provided less than adequate service? Shame on you for not paying full fare to help keep Amtrak solvent! <<<
HAHAHA Touche, Touche....
Peace,
AMDEE
Subtalker Lexcie did pay full fare on his BOS to WAS leg as it was covered by an expense account. Furthermore, I ended up paying $80 to Amtrak for the entire trip + some vending machine revenue at Cleveland + Breakfast on the Capitol. Had the fares been higher Amtrak would have gotten $0.
The last time I did a roundtrip from Berlin, CT (serves New Britain area) to Union Station in Washington DC, the fare was $136. That was on March 12, 2001. The one-way fare last December 4th (a Tuesday) from Berlin to 30th Street Station in Philadelphia was $47. It was on an unreserved coach.
As for the Downeaster, look at what cities and towns it services. You leave from Boston's North Station. Too bad SOUTH Station is the one with the bus connections. There will be service to Old Orchard Beach, ME in the summer. It's an excellent example of a resort town. Just don't live there in the winter like I did in the 80s. The schedule suggests that it's for tourists and not for the average commuter.
The schedule suggests that it's for tourists and not for the average commuter.
So it costs less to transport tourists?
They won't pay as much as a commuter most likely.
Amtrak is not in the commuter business. If commuters are what is desired, then MBTA should seek a subsidies from New Hampshire and Maine and run it.
If there is a station that is not under the earth, but is below street level and everything is built up around it so that it appears underground, would you still call it an underground station?
Covered? Lower Level?
"Underground" if the entire area has been raised. Are we talking about the raised areas of Atlanta and Seattle?
Yeah, Atlanta is what I had in mind. I am thinking when a station does not rest below the dirt, but is covered by viaducts and buildings that, if otherwise, would be considered ground level.
I would call that situation "underground" "with an asterisk" if I were describing it is a book or article.
A different example is the East New York station of the LIRR. The line is underground but it rises to street level for the station. The station is completely covered because PART of Atlantic Avenue stays on top of the rail as a sort of flyover. But I wouldn't call it an underground station, because the land and street surface all around it is unchanged and at the same level as the station.
What station(s) in Atlanta are at street level but covered because the street was raised? Is it interesting or unusual to look at?
The East New York LIRR station is definitely not underground. You can see the surface streets and I believe there might be level exits.
:-) Andrew
There are street level exits.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Lenox, upper level of Five Points, and Philips Arena/Dome/GWCC are three that come to mind. These stations were built, however, after the streets were raised (Lenox I'm not too sure about when). It's somewhat interesting to look at from outside the station I guess, I know have any pictures to show though.
A different example is the East New York station of the LIRR. The line is underground but it rises to street level for the station. The station is completely covered because PART of Atlantic Avenue stays on top of the rail as a sort of flyover. But I wouldn't call it an underground station, because the land and street surface all around it is unchanged and at the same level as the station.
There is probably an official classification as to whether it's underground or not if merely as a fire safety matter. Certain of the most unlikely main line stations in England are considered underground for almost exactly the same situation as ENY on the LIRR (take a look at Birmingham New Street for instance - on second thoughts don't - it's horrible).
A station in a covered cut?
Below street, sub-street, under-street, lower level. 'Street level' is relative. Chicago also has streets with lower levels, a la Atlanta. Since bridges have lower levels, a reference to the 'X St. lower level station' makes sense in context.
So then what would you call stations like the ones on the IND Concourse Line, where stations are both above street level AND below street level at the same time, with exits up to Grand Concourse and down to the cross streets below? The station itself is both a bridge and tunnel!
>>>So then what would you call stations like the ones on the IND Concourse Line, where stations are both above street level AND below street level at the same time, with exits up to Grand Concourse and down to the cross streets below?<<<
An engineering marvel! I'm biased because my Grandfather was one of the designers.
Peace,
ANDEE
How many stations are like this? I've been to 174-175.
Confused.
I believe it would be referred to as an Open Cut station....but i have no clue
Of course, there wouldn't be a nomenclature issue in New York, because such a station would clearly be a "subway" station--we don't use "underground" as descriptive. Generally rights-of-way are subway, elevated, surface, cut and embankment, or transitions between those. Some of the elevated structures are really viaducts, but you never talk about a "viaduct station."
I think when they report line mileages, they just use subway, elevated and surface/other.
It was interesting how in January's new City Section of Train Magazine there is a pic of the venerable Redbirds being literally pushed into the Hudson River, while February's section features an article on the preservation of Boston's old PCC's. So I need a New Yorker's opinion (or two)--was it time for the Redbirds to go? In Boston, as the article relates, the old PCC's are not only a historical item that is keep in top shape, work is being done to restore them to their "natural" color. Personally, I think some of the Redbirds should've seen a second life on the Red Line up here in Boston--they're already painted red, all we'd have to do is renumber them, swap the "MTA" for a "T" and they're good to go :) Lastly, I haven't been following MTA news very closely lately--are the R62's next?
Redbirds time to go has definately come. The R-62's and 62a's are in great shape and should be around another 20 years, they are only hitting their late teens or early twenties now.
The oldest "Redbirds" have been in service for more than 40 years. They're also in sad shape as they're also rusting in places. Some cars on the B division are next on the scrapping list.
#3 West End Jeff
Mainly the R-38/40S/40M and 42's (in the worst to best order of course)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Some of the R-40s have rust of the roofs. In a few cases the rust has eaten through the metal.
#3 West End Jeff
Too Soon.
& being replaced by non usa built imported scrappers !!
>>>...there is a pic of the venerable Redbirds being literally pushed into the Hudson River.<<<
I wasn't aware of any redbirds being dumped in the Hudson. This is news to me. Is this picture available on line?
Peace,
ANDEE
*lmao* I believe he realllly meant into the Atlantic....typo, I suppose :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Definitely the Atlantic. There is no way they would dump them in the Hudson.
my man !!
My idea would have 1 Redbird for each of the numbered lines refurbished with all the bells and whistle in time for 2004. The Irt would then be officially 100 and we could celebrated by having 1 specially done up train on each line. Any comments?
Everyone gets a personal respirator. CI Peter
ROTHLMAO. We could have a foodfight with Bondo too.
I can hear John Belushi right now:
BONDO FIIII-IIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Redbirds could also be an inspiration for a Swiss cheeze commercial !
Bill "Newkirk"
Well ... the redbirds are to 1904 as the R68's are to 1933 on the IND. Not related at all. If the purpose were recognition of history, then it would be time to access and refurbish a whole lot of HiV's and Gibbs cars for the event. Redbirds are the equivalent of R142's as far as history is concerned ...
i agree with U
C'mon, man ... wouldn't you prefer a LoV for that shindig? Not only a BIG foamer glass in the middle, but SEATED glass on the left as well! No need to stand. Besides, to those of us who are OUR age, the LoV's were the REAL IRT, them damned redbirds were Johnny come latelies. Interlopers. Hosers. Thieves of the IRT. :)
yes LOW VS HIGH VS & THE REDBIRDS ( at least several sets )
excuse the caps but
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CELEBRATE THE SUBWAY SYSTEM 100TH BIRTHDAY
WITH NO RAILFAN WINDOW EQUIPPED RAIL CARS ????????....!!
bummer eh ??
yes LOW VS HIGH VS & THE REDBIRDS ( at least several sets )
excuse the caps but
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CELEBRATE THE SUBWAY SYSTEM 100TH BIRTHDAY
WITH NO RAILFAN WINDOW EQUIPPED RAIL CARS ????????....!!
bummer eh ??
Thats easy. We can program the TODs to say Happy New Year.
transverse cab.................TODs.??
no, lol........!
Point of Order: The original 1904 cars (The Composites and the Gibbs HV cars) had the entire vestibule area closed off when it was used as a motorman's cab. Train men nicknamed them "The Merry Widows" because of this feature. (In other words, no rail fan window.) The standard IRT foldaway cab feature began with the "Deck Roof" cars of 1907.
Metal snips. 'nuff said. :)
Just as the R-1/9s were the real IND.
so by this summer all of the birds will B gone ..??
Ayup ... the R10's were hosers too. :)
Of course, how could I forget the R-10s? Although they were considered the first cars ordered specifically for use on the IND and BMT, they will always be IND to me. And forever synonimous with the A.
R10's were a later purchase, not original equipment. They were the "redbirds" of the IND ... second generation, spoke english. :)
Agreed.
Here ya go bro ... *THIS* is the IRT ...
thats a good idea but how about this. we get every single nalstagac train we have get them ready, and run them on the system for that one day. railfans all around i think would love that idea. think about it i would love to see all the old style trains working again.
I agree. Anything that can run, at Court St or CI, or where ever else they're lurking, should be dusted off, shined up, and run in revenue service at least that day, if not the entire week. Good call.
wonderful !!
lol!! I agree with U.......
Some of the Redbirds are/were in awful shape. Others, like most on the 2 (and now the 5), are still in decent shape. As many as are necessary should be kept and used for service improvements.
We need to remember that MIDoT funds Amtrak's operations in its state and can to some extent call the shots. First, the current International is going to be eliminated and replaced w/ the Bluewater. It will arrive early morning in Chicago and leave that afternoon. This will be cheaper as Amtrak will only need one trainset. Second, both Amtrak and MIDoT agree that any Chicago-Toronto train should go through Detriot and MIDoT wants Amtrak to start up this new "International" the day after the old International is terminated. CN has already spent money upgrading the tracks along the route, but use of the Detriot River Tunnel would bypass the existing Amtrak Detriot Station and require a temporary station in Windsor. (Note the Abandonned Michigan Central (NYC) depot does still exist, maybe we could see a restoration.)
< First, the current International is going to be eliminated and replaced w/ the Bluewater. >
That is a recommendation by Mich ARP to Mich DOT, period, nothing more. Please stop stating it as fact. This is how untrue railfan rumors start, like a few months ago when a lot of you started babbling that the Vermonter was gone for good, and then it came back a week later.
< This will be cheaper as Amtrak will only need one trainset. >
If 350/353 (or 355 on Sun) are extended to/from Toronto as a VIA/Windsor train, it will require TWO Amtrak trainsets to cover. 350/355 are also the trains that Amtrak fumbles with in Detroit with express cars. The Blue Water would require yet another Amtrak trainset. The VIA portion of the International to Sarnia would be covered by one VIA transet. VIA breaks even on equipment, Amtrak has to scrape up another trainset. It is unclear how such a train would serve Windsor. Nobody is going to build another Windsor station.
Story here.
heh... Shades of Close Encounters of the Third Kind. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I believe I remember LIRR type signs at the N,R station at Canal St years back. It was white with black letters and a black stripe on the top (like the old LIRR signs with the black stripe before the current signs with the blue stripe) I think I also remember them along Broadway on the N,R. Am I imagining this or were the standard signs on the subway like that for a time. When did the change to the Black with white letters they use now?
Yes, the station signs were white with black lettering. They changed them because white letters on a black background appear larger to the human eye. They used to have an exhibit showing this at the Transit Museum. I do not recall the year rhey changed them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The change started in the late 70's or maybe the early 80's.
Until the early or mid-90's, one remaining black-on-white platform sign over the NB 2/3 track at 72 (near the south end of the platform) still had a magenta(?) 3. I'm afraid I do not have a photograph.
Once the redbird retirement is complete, The Bronx will have no subway cars in service dating before 1984.
Not bad, really, for a place some say is "neglected".
:-) Andrew
Talk to me in 20 years. 8-))
Peace,
ANDEE
At the home for Retired Foamers?
Yeap, you got that right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Overlooking Branford, I hope :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Retired Foamers <<<
A true oxymoron. :-)
Tom
It's terrible. No true railfan windows (at least once the 3 trainsets go back home)! Get them while you still can.
Got a quick opinion-question for you all. I'm heading down to New Haven over the long weekend (with a hop over to NYC of course via car or Metro-North) and I've got this situation. I'm taking an unreserved train down which leaves me extra money to burn on the way back and as I've never ridden Acela Express, I'm considering it. It's $20 over Acela Regional, my other option at the times available, but when I add up the time savings we're only talking about 20 minutes! So, tell me, is the experience on Acela Express worth $1/minute or should I just take the Regional and pocket the savings?
I say.. take the Acela Express once just for the railfan value then don't bother. Like you said it's only a small time shaved off and a higher price. I rode the A.E. once between Baltimore and Newark, but I wouldn't shell out for it again.
Yes, I agree with Dave. Take it once for the experience.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree. Come on, treat yourself. It is a cool ride.
It is a great experience, paying an extra 20 dollars once can't hurt.
Definitely you should ride it for the experience. For me it's also worth the extra cost when going between New Jersey and Washington, not so much from the time standpoint (although that's nice too) but from the rider comfort standpoint. Wish I could do it every time... it can only be justified when I'm going by myself though. With my wife and/or my younger son along the car becomes the much more cost-effective choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Definitely you should ride it for the experience. For me it's also worth the extra cost when going between New Jersey and Washington, not so much from the time standpoint (although that's nice too) but from the rider comfort standpoint.)
I took the Acela down to, and the Metroliner up from, DC. I sat at a table on the Acela, and a regular seat on Metroliner. I found the Metroliner to be more comfortable than Acela, and definately more comfortable than an airplane.
LEG ROOM!
curious. I thought the AE I rode in early Sept rode better than any Amfleet car I had ever been in (no matter which chairs or paint schemes)
LEG ROOM!
Absolutely. I've not ridden at a table seat, only a "regular" one on the AE; the leg room was great. And, IMHO, it was more comfortable than the Metroliner - not from a leg room standpoint necessarily, that was about the same - but it was a smoother, quieter ride. Less echoes in the car too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the Metroliner, or Amfleet, cars have better leg rests...I find the AE leg rests annoying...I use my briefcase instead.
Frankly, I've only taken the AE from Philly to DC, or Philly to NYC, never DC to NYC, and the extra time saved (couple of minutes tops) and the supposedly smoother ride are hardly worth the extra money. It was fun the first couple of times, but now I take the Acela Regionals or a Clocker if I'm paying for it, and the AE if work pays.
Do it once. It's nice, but it's not worth the money. It's fun to do it once though. I rode it about 3 weeks or so after it started.
Don't expect it to be an amazing experience. It's like a better Amfleet, IMHO. The ride isn't much better, but it's quieter
I wouldn't spend the money. Metro North is a very slow railroad (top speed is 75 except for a very, very short stretch at 90 mph.) You really can't appreciate AE unless you're running 125 mpg.
Michael
Most likely, he wouldn't use it between NY and New Haven.
Commemoration in Transit, a look at how transit properties publically commemorated the events of September 11, is now open. This is a slideshow showing how authorities commemorated those who lost their lives in the national tradgedy. An example of such a commemoration would be the displaying "IN COMMEMORATION" message on the information signs on the DC Metro on September 14.
To see Commemoration in Transit, click here or point your browsers to http://www.geocities.com/otpcommemoration/ (the link will work even though Geocities doesn't allow remote loading, I have my ways). Links from the rest of my site, www.orenstransitpage.com, will be available within the hour if all goes well. I stongly advise your using Internet Explorer to view these and all the other pages on my site.
If you have a photo you wish to contribute, questions, or comments, please e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com. You may also use one of the customer service buttons located throughout the site.
If traffic is heavy, additional servers will be added.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
In Boston, many of the trolleys on the Green Line had their numbers lowered and in that place an American flag decal was place. At UMass Transit, the company I drive part time for, a small American flag decal was placed in the corner of the first passenger window on the right side on all our RTS buses and a larger flag on the right side AC grill underneath the company logo.
For the trolleys with flags placed on their front and/or rear, the numbers weren't moved--the flags were placed underneath. The trolleys that have had their front/rear numbers moved are the Type 7's that have been repainted, either in the new livery or with full-body advertising.
Thank you. Do you mind if I add this information?
Your link caused NOTHING BUT TROUBLE on my browser please don't do it again, thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
Your link caused NOTHING BUT TROUBLE on my browser please don't do it again, thanks
Me too, AND it is bad practice to use sound files without warning the user first. I work in an office and hearing a tinny "Yankee Doodle" blaring out of my speakers was disruptive. I don't want to have turn my sound off to click on transit links.
Please be more respectful of other users' needs and equipment.
Typical of those who write web pages SOLELY for Internet Exploiter. I also got oodles of alarms and alerts about "Comet cursor" a KNOWN "spyware" program and the javascript hung trying to hook up my "humancounter" whatever thingy.
AVOID THIS SITE!
Typical of those who write web pages SOLELY for Internet Exploiter.
I am *using* Internet Explorer, and this board is not the forum for the umpteen-thousandth reiteration of the Browser Wars.
It's more that it's bad practice to (1) take over someone's browser regardless; and (2) blast them with sound effects without notifying them. (This is a common and very annoying sin among a number of private railfan sites. You know who you are!)
Kevin, what broswer do you use? I use Opera 6 and I love it. It's very fast and keeps all the browser windows in one window. No pop-ups here. But it the site didn't completely work for me either. I had to reload the image to see the whole thing. Also, Have you heard of Ad Ware? It finds spyware on your computer and deletes it. Try finding it at download.com. The first time I used it, I found whopping 57 programs. I be sure to run it every once in a while.
We have all that under control on this end ... know ad aware well. I use Netscape 4.76 on Billyware boxes and Mozilla milestone 18 on the Linux boxes. But word to any webmeisters out there - better than 50% of ALL visitors do NOT have javascript turned on ... sites that depend on javascript cannot count on their visitors using it. Popups alone are reason enough to travel without javascript turned on and most know the little trick to avoid being "tracked" ...
At the server on our front end here, if a page has plug-ins (including shockwave flash) then the page is halted and plain text page source gets delivered instead ... we do that with our email as well. Javascript is THE method of choice for transporting viruses, especially if the victim is using Internet Explorer which will just run it without even bothering to ask ...
I've found over the years that stuff built with Front Page tends to cause far more problems for Netscape users than stuff built on a Netscape platform causes for people using IE4/IE5 browers (Netscape 6 does better with the Front Page landmines Mr. Gates' people put in, but the AOL Time Warner people added their own new quirks that keep me staying with Netscape 4.79 for now).
Yep ... that's why I'm grateful for Dave Pirmann's work here - works on ALL browsers, with or without "javascript" ... sites that don't or require JS to function are never seen again in this house. :)
I'll second that.
Yup, there's only a little bit of javascript here, mostly cribbed from other sites. On the front page, there's an onMouseOver for the image that changes at the bottom. Also each page has a little JS header to attempt to perform a frame break-out, for instance if some other site has "framed" pages from this site. I even got an email from a site webmaster that had done this, more or less put their own ad banner on top of nycsubway.org pages. He said he'd take my site's link off his own unless I removed that frame break-out. I'm like, what, so you can sell more ads around my content. G. F. Y.
David: Once again, just a little note of appreciation for a well-designed and lightweight site that loads reliably and uses minimal graphics well. OH, if only some of the OTHER railfan sites would follow your lead ....
Ditto!
Eric D. Smith
Heh. Why would ANYONE want to look at this place framed by ads when they can just come here and bask in the glow FULL screen? Dave, I'm PROUDAYA ... and it's an absolute pleasure coming here, avoiding LOUD train whistles, dancing icons and popunder ads ... wish some other "webmeisters" would get the clue.
There's perl by the way that can allow you to check the "referer" (official Netscape misspelling) to see if they came from you or requested the pages directly. You could pull what "Angelfire" is doing and substitute "screw this hoser, click here for nycsubway.org" ... heh.
Some of us other webmasters are on low budget operations. Either we get free servers that come with ads or we aren't online. I have to say, some of those free servers have too many, but I think others are fairly decent.
Either give me a whole ton of money so I can get an totally ad free site, or deal with the ads.
Might want to re-read the topic - the OTHER "webmaster" is violating copyright law by taking Dave's pages, framing them in HIS pages and then calling it all HIS intellectual property. This has nothing to do with sites that require javascript to see the page ... those I just never visit ...
My bad.
As for not visiting the sites w/ JavaScript, your loss most likely, since very few are out there to track you.
Personally, I don't care about the "tracking" issues - we make software that takes care of THAT issue ... for me, the javascript ALWAYS staying off is the result of the neverending SECURITY problems with buffer overflows, the ability of some "objects" to get at the file system and genuine concerns ... if someone manages to extract the source code off one of our machines for what we make, we're done.
Therefore, if a site requires javascript, I'm NOT turning it on. To hell with any such sites ... javascript's main purpose is those annoying popup/popunder ads and of course silly, bandwidth wasting nonsense ... but it's the SECURITY issues that make javascript a bad idea, ESPECIALLY in Aiyee ...
It's not hard to use the (NOSCRIPT) tags to ensure that those who also don't allow javascript get to see a page. If I draw a blank or find that links won't work without it, that page no longer exists as far as many are concerned. But just so's ya know it isn't anything personal - we have to protect our machines given what we do and many others have learned that javascript isn't a good idea among "untrusted sites" as a default, often through hard experience.
Understood. Do you know how to get this no script thing? E-mail me privately please.
Any good html tutorial will tell you... here's my favorite: Quadzilla Archive at WDVL. Basically, the NOSCRIPT tag simply allows the page designer to provide alternate content for those who have Javascript disabled.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't really use HTML tutorials, mainly because I don't have the need. I will look into it.
Thanks.
There is only one reason I don't use Opera. It seems petty, but here it is: Opera doesn't scroll to the next screen when I hit space. Yes, I know I could use the PgDn key, but the space bar is how I've always done it. Unlike everything else, this doesn't seem to be configurable. I'm hoping I'm wrong -- am I?
Space bar! I never new it could do that.
I use Opera. But I've weaned myself from spacebar ever since those roller-wheel mouses came out.
Opera 6 lets you use the spacebar to scroll down, I just tried it, it works. I don't remember about Opera 5, becuase I use the wheel on the mouse to do that anyway.
My gripe with Opera 5 was that after loading 2 or 3 pages it would stop browsing, so I didn't use Opera 5 that much. I think it might have to do with my old OS (WinME), which sucked. But now I got Opera 6 and Win2000, so I'll never know for sure the real reason.
Look at that! Opera 6 added the spacebar feature. Yippee! I'm using it now and I think I'll stick with it.
As for David's suggestion to use the mouse, I find it easier to scroll a full screen at a time without taking my hands off the keyboard. Incidentally, the scroll wheel on my mouse, for reasons unbeknownst to me, works in Opera but not in IE (and not in most programs).
It caused Netscape to bomb out entirely on me with the Windows crash notification box when I clicked on the slide show at this end.
Which is why I said don't use Netscape. When I did my Netscape test (I have both IE and NS for this sort of situation), it did that too. Since I am only a single computer, I can't verify the results but it seems there are issues with NS which I will work on. I must say though, that more than 90% of my visitors use IE and since I do have other commitments, to make my site fully compatible for both isn't feasible. I will see if any of the JavaScripts running are IE only. I might just make a NS version this weekend if the need persists.
Just don't program specifically for internet explorer and your website should run on just about all the currently available browsers. That's what I've been doing for several years now and I haven't had any problems.
Similarly, I can write very portable ANSI compliant C/C++ programs, as long as they only require a text interface, and recompile and run them on just about any system (Amiga, DOS, Windows, presumably Macintosh but I've never tried, Unix of various sorts etc...) with few changes if any, and this is real programming too, not websites.
-Robert King
I don't this seems to be just one page. The photo galleries work fine with Netscape although the site will run better with IE.
It seems enough of you are using NS so I will make a NS version of the slideshow.
That thing set off so many alarms on this end that our proxy server DUMPED on all the alarms generated ... you'll find that IMG tags and a few tables can work wonders ... but Microsoft's (ahem) "javascript" (it's actually called Windows scripting host scripting) is like everything else Mickeysoft - NOT standard, designed to hose anything that didn't come out of Redmond ... fewer and fewer people are using Microsquish these days and opt for things like Mozilla, Opera and other OS's entirely. Even Microsoft's XML isn't standard either which means if you want to have maximum eyeballs, try to fudge your exhibit in pure HTML code. You can't go wrong THAT way ...
I'll add a warning for the redirect page if it is such a large concern of yours. A good assumtion to take when browsing on any website fpr the first time is to be prepared for any bells and whistles. We as webmasters can't figure out the preferences of each of our visitors before hand, or we make a mistake.
I hope you return to the site, fully aware there is music and sound effects on that and a few other pages.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
I'll add a warning for the redirect page if it is such a large concern of yours.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
A good assumtion to take when browsing on any website fpr the first time is to be prepared for any bells and whistles. We as webmasters can't figure out the preferences of each of our visitors before hand ...
Au contraire. Good, elegantly designed websites use a MINIMUM of features to convey the information. SubTalk is actually an example of this (although for my preference the screens are a bit tall). Webmasters who use every last possible HTML trick and multimedia effect are in the same class as those folks who, when the Mac first came out, wrote letters that had bold, italic, highlighted, outlined lettering in multiple fonts.
Just because a bell and whistle is available does not mean it OUGHT to be used. In this case, less is more.
Just because a bell and whistle is available does not mean it OUGHT to be used. In this case, less is more.
And, let me just add to WMATA ... from the little I saw before I killed it, I can't imagine how your site would lose from (a) silence, which is my preferred soundtrack when viewing 9/11-related pix; and (b) not taking over users' browsers. I can't see where either of those changes would negatively affect your content in the slightest.
Truly.
Just because a bell and whistle is available does not mean it OUGHT to be used. In this case, less is more.
Very True.
nycsubway.org is a perfect example of how a web site should look. Also, this is the best organized site I've seen. It is very intuitive to navagate.
Were using Netscape? My stats show some people did that, which may be your problem.
Otherwise, can you describe the nature of your problems?
There's a thing called "HTML" which works with anything. Geocities is also trying to dump classes and javascript as well ... and that "humancounter" thing just latched the system on me entirely.
What are you talking about? If you find a better server than Geocities (they aren't great but it does work), let me know. Keep in mind it has got to be free or virtually free because I am not made of money.
Secondly, there isn't CometCursor on my site, it was removed. You sure you weren't reading the removal notice? If it appears, inform me of specific pages so I can deal with it.
Thank you!
I'll see if I can get a NS version up this weekend.
Dunno what the comet cursor thing was - I *always* surf with java and javascript COMPLETELY disabled at all times. When the page came up messed and I got a "plug-in" error, I viewed the page source and said, "hosts file" ...
And you're right ... you DO get what you pay for ... the NASDAQ antigravity money is gone ...
Not having JavaScript probably means you miss quite a deal on the Internet. My JavaScripts are all just timers, randomizers, etc., and should not be doing any harm to any computer that visits my site. If such a thing is happening, please let me know (preferibly by e-mail).
I use IE 6.0.
Peace,
ANDEE
Interesting. I wonder what the problem is. If you try again and it persists, please e-mail me privately.
I'm using Win 98 and IE 6.0, it worked find for me--great pics, btw-- sometimes things just go like that, c'mon it's Window :)
Some of us use Macs and Linux ... Billy does NOT own the world, Enron does ... Billy gotta wait. :)
Billy has to wait - untill the Enron liquidation sales start and then he'll pick it all up cheap. Right?
-Robert King
Microsoft gas version 2.1 sure does have a ring to it, eh? Fill up a tankful and watch your car burst into flames. Brings new meaning to the term "crash" ... :)
Do I need to upgrade the fuel injectors on my car now?
When the preview ads for Windows XP (eXtra Problems) that had the guy piloting a desk over a desert were being shown on TV I always had to ask whatever happened when they got to the 'crash' part if they're going to accurately portray Windows.
-Robert King
I saw it on the cutting room floor. "Beep beep! WHAM." (character holds up placard saying "Help!") fade to black ...
Personally, I had visions of a huge brick wall suddenly rising out of the desert and the desk slamming into it. In the next scene the rescue team stepping over the fragments of shattered hard drive platters, prying apart the mangled deskchair, imploded computer monitor, and the desk from which the mouse dangles by its cord, gently swinging in the wind. Wow, the lowly computer crash goes from bland blue screens, silly little pictures of bombs or flashing guru meditations to being truly cinematic!
-Robert King
Yeah, when Windows dumps the pipe, it's a whole lot more spectacular than "kernel panic! PID 393 halted" ... and then Linux keeps running. Windows is an NTSB event. :)
We've had your typical windows crashes, severe windows crashes and even a few of the awsome jawdropping ones where it goes down so badly it takes several tries at rebooting before the computer starts up again - only for me to discover that I'll be spending the next two or three days doing a complete software rebuild from the ground up each time. NTSB being a little bit out of jurisdiction here, Transport Canada and the CRTC show up instead :) Anyways, this is getting a bit off topic...
Actually, that said, I should make a point of saying that I really hope the software and computing equipment in all the newest subway cars is many times much more reliable than Wintel stuff. I think I read somewhere that they were using 68030s and a Motorola supplied C++ language for embeded systems.
-Robert King
030's and 040's are QUITE reliable for transit use, they're used in many cars as well. Won't bother with the other off topic stuff, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that's where NYCTA went in the design.
As much as like dislike Microschlok, I'll give Billy credit for Windows 2000. I use it and I haven't restarted it for a month. I had Win ME before, and crappy OS crashed all the time. It eventually crashed for good. I'd use Linux, but it looks crazy to use, and I'm not that much into computers.
I had a spectacular Windows 2000 crash about two weeks ago. I put a CD in the CD ROm and it scanned for the autorun.inf file but the CD didn't have one - I know this because I designed the CD and I hate autoplay so I didn't put one in with a cutesy-stupid program to run. Anyways, just after it started scanning, every running program went down with the standard program failure notification untill it hit Windows Explorer and then it was all over.
It's about as good as NT4 and it works much more smoothly with the high speed internet access program we have to use but it does have to be restarted every few days (or when it bombs) to clear out memory fragmentation etc... I miss the good days of "Guru Meditation....(error message and # here).....Click left mouse button to reboot."
-Robert King
Despite the legitimate problems that the other Subtalkers had viewing the site, it worked and looked fine to me.
However, I thought the music was a little too "lively" for the subject.
But it's the thought that counts, WMATAGMOAGH!
There is a randomizer. I assume you got Yankee Doodle, which was put on for its patriotic theme, not its liveliness. For those of you who don't do web design, it is not easy to find MIDI files that both fit our needs and aren't illegal to use on our personal sites. To find those 3 files was quite a challenge and took quite some time.
Yes, I got Yankee Doodle. I just revisited and listened to much more subdued music.
Just noticed the script only works for IE 4.x or higher. I apologize for any inconvienence. Within a few minutes, a version for NS users will be available. Please click here to visit the site. Again, I do apologize for not seeing this problem earlier.
Heh. "Got Commemoration in Transit will load in [ empty ] seconds" that just sat there.
Let us know when you have an HTML page ...
CLick where it says GO EXPRESS.
I think you need to replace the timer with a straight HTML click here link.
-Robert King
Did that too. Please send your e-mail requests to me instead of posting them here. I am sure Dave really wants to hear each and every complaint about my site because I misjudged a few things.
Commemoration in Transit, a look at how transit properties publically commemorated the events of September 11, has been improved to make it easier and more pleasing to view. This is a slideshow showing how authorities commemorated those who lost their lives in the national tradgedy. An
example of such a commemoration would be the displaying "IN COMMEMORATION" message on the information signs on
the DC Metro on September 14.
To see Commemoration in Transit, click here or point your browsers to http://www.geocities.com/otpcommemoration/ (the link
will work even though Geocities doesn't allow remote loading, I have my ways). Links are available from the rest of my site, www.orenstransitpage.com, as well. For those of you who use Netscape, please make sure you view the Netscape version of the page. Also, for those of you who wish to not hear the background music, the Netscape version is "silent".
If you have a photo you wish to contribute, questions, or comments, please e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com. You may also
use one of the customer service buttons located throughout the site.
I apologize for any inconvienences caused by the problems on the pages last night.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
Every trip I take to NYC never ceases to amaze me about how poor a shape the system is in. This is suposted to be the premier rapid transit system in the country and with a few exceptions, it is utter crap. On Wendsday all I wanted to do was take a little ride on the N from Pacific to 14th. I even got lucky and snagged an R40 Slant. As the train lurched forward like a drunk on payday we struggled to reach the standard NYCS crusing speed of 25 mph. This whiplash inducing ride ddin't last long as we soon hit a sharp curve. No timers needed here, the T/O slowed to about 7 mph for what was best described as "washboard track." You all know what a washboard is, well this was washboard. The train began to vibrate violently, sort of like the flat wheel from hell, and I was worried that the car was going to come off the track. After the shaking subsided I could hear it travel down the length of the train. So, was this an isolated incident? NO, it happened at least 4 more times at every curve between there and City Hall. Dirty stations, dank tunnels, slow trains and piss poor track, still, I got a railfan window and was ready to give the NYCS the benifit of the doubt. That was until I caught a PATH train at 14th St. The station was clean and the tunnels were considerably less dank. The trains had acceleration and quickly reached speeds of 30-45 mph. When we came to one of those tight PATH curves we took it at 25 mph and the ride was smooth as silk. There was only the slightest of squeals. What is the deal here? Can't the NYCS maintain its track to the same standards as such jerkwater transit systems as SEPTA, PATH, the Boston T and the Cleveland CTA? How can you people stand such a system on a day in day out basis?
I actually had a question that went with this. Was the line just poorly built or has it just been poorly maintained?
Are you sure it wasn't just that R40? I've been on some pretty bad R40s...
I certainly don't feel like everything is fine with the subways. I especially dislike the timers that are the result of the combination of a lawsuit mentality and a few bad apple T/Os. There have also been a lot of delays due to "police activity", probably not only more than in other systems but proportionately more. That's not the TA's fault, and in fact they do seem to be trying to reduce the delay caused by the white donut sugar powder alarms.
Even though the system is far from perfect, I generally feel very satisfied. Trains are usually decently spaced and usually not unduly delayed. I'd say 95% of my rides are satisfactory experiences.
In particular, I have had some very good N train rides from Astoria down to 14th and from 14th down to lower Manhattan. Well spaced trains (even if less frequent than I'd like), reaonably fast except for the worst curves, smooth, and short dwell times in the stations.
Let's see, you had one bad ride. And from that you draw universal conclusions.
He probably had a scardey cat T/O. I've had some pretty gutsy T/O's on the N line (on slant R40s) in the Dekalb-Lower Manhattan stretch.
If it's all the experience you have, you're kind of stuck using it aren't you?
-Robert King
It wasn't a bad ride, I found it quite enjoyable. I have had many NYCS rides and many non-NYCS rides and the NYCS by far has the slowest speed (system wide) and poorest indivudual track sections. Is the system simply old and falling appart, or is it a question of maintainence $$.
I don't know whether you know it or not, but in many sectors NYCS still means New York Central System. This was a railroad, and had no connection to the NY Subways.
I thought you might like to know that some people who read your posts may confuse the New York Central with the subways.
The New York Central's reporting marks were and are "NYC" so that is the only official alpha code.
Tools, lanterns, switchlocks, etc. which were stolen from the New York Central System in a long ago time are marked NYCS. These beloved artifacts are far nicer than those unfortunate pieces marked PRR and are almost as lucky as those marked DL&W. BTW, I looked all over eBay for locks marked LIAR and was only able to find locks which said LIRR.
I saw a railroad lantern on Ebay some time ago marked NYCS. The seller obviously didn't have a clue as to what the letters represented, and described it as being from the New York City Subway, and that it was a true artifact of the city's rapid transit system.
Do you suppose that Jersey Mike was the seller, and wrote that incorrect description because he just didn't know any better?
Do you suppose that Jersey Mike was the seller, and wrote that incorrect description because he just didn't know any better?
I doubt it... since JM is still a college student, chances are he doesn't have such a lantern; if he did, I doubt he'd be selling it, as frothy a foamer as he is :-)
(I've got a PRR lantern and also a PRR oil torch of the type used to keep switches from freezing. Neither are in the best of shape, but they make interesting conversation pieces.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
The LIAR runs into Pig Station in the City of Manor. It is also completely fictional.
Reporting marks are issued by the FRA (or the AAR) and are not open to interperation.
You would be real handy at a gasoline fire, all the foam you generate would extinguish the fire in a hurry.
>>>...all the foam you generate would extinguish the fire in a hurry. <<<
ROTHFLMAO
Peace,
ANDEE
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA writing a post about HOW he complains
Ain't that the truth?:-)
No, it's the STATE of Manor. The capital is Jonesburgh. It was briefly Majorgrad, but it's Jonesburgh again now.
Excellent point.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, as JM has demonstrated in past posts, he just has a bias against cities. Hence his report. I say, consider the source.
Peace,
ANDEE
On one hand, the NYCS deserves alot of credit for being able to handle 4,000,000 riders a day.
In some areas of track, speed limits are too cautious in my opinion. My real gripe with the TA is it's inability to effectively communicate with it's customers, and schedule trains to meet the needs of today's passenger.
dude, chill.
You rode through the slowest, tightest part of the BMT. The
curves there are down as low at 125'. It's just the way it was
built. The BMT didn't have the advantage of eminent domain that
the IND used to avoid unpleasant geometry.
Track maintenance is fine. Tie condition and gauge is
a lot better than the class 3 requirements that the FRA would
impose for that operating speed. The 33rd St division of
the PATH system is just as tight and slow, there's even a signal
at one of the interlockings that requires the train to pull up
to it and count to ten before it clears.
There are problems with the NYCTS, but you're not even close.
I was riding the 33rd St. Division of PATH, it was completely smooth. Someone is doing something different here.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
You would have saved yourself about 10 - 15 minutes going over the bridge. Trains going through the tunnel were always notoriously slow.
I'd say it's more of a 5 minute difference at most.
I wanted to see Courtlandt St. and there was a Slant 40 N sitting in the station.
there's even a signal at one of the interlockings that requires the train to pull up to it and count to ten before it clears.
Are you referring to the one in Tunnel D / Caisson 1 lower? That area has had a huge water problem for a very long time. I don't see them doing anything about it (of course, it's underneath the Holland Tunnel, so it isn't a simple matter of digging it out and waterproofing it). But they have postponed rail replacement there, yet again (two sets of replacement rails were delivered and rusted out before they were installed).
My guess is that the full stop there is due to the ongoing water problem. In any event, McAdoo is surely turning over in his grave over the indignity of subjecting his line to this full stop...
Honestly I don't recall the exact location. When I asked a PATH
engineer (who sometimes posts here) about it, he said that
"the FRA made them do that".
Hmmm. The only full stop I know of (other than signals red due to occupied blocks) is the one I mentioned. If the FRA made 'em do it, it is odd that only this one is like that but none of the matching signals in the other junctions behaves that way.
First of all, mike, the New York City Subways are referred to as NYCT and not NYCS. Secondly, the NYCT system was rated as the best Large Transit system for the year 2001 by APTA. I suppose it was a simple oversight that APTA did not seek your opinion before they made the award. Finally, the R-40 is limited to a minimum curve radii of 125'. In that area, some of the curves are in the 145' radius range so the car is working very close to its operational envelope. By comparison, the Path cars can operate on a 90' radius curve so a path car on a similar curve may perform better. Perhaps you should stop trying to put everything into the same box. Not everything fits.
How does New York City Subway turn into NYCT? There is no T in subway. New York City Transit includes Busses. How do I refer to the set of subset of NYCT that only includes the subway?
What a schmeckel! If you ever met GOD, you'd enter into an argument
that G-O-D is not the proper friggin reporting mark. Jeez, what
is your major, masturbational philosophy?
Look, all these people who work for NYCT are telling you that
it is called NYCT and it has never been called NYCS {although
was NYCTS in the 1940s}. I guess they're all wet. I hope their
pension isn't affected, having been working for the wrong agency
all this time.
Geez, give the guy a ride in the gate car with Dougie ... he'll get to MEET God. :)
I am now rolling on the floor and am seriously laughing my ass off. What is that guy's problem (lack of maturity)? If he just wants to refer to the Subways in general, since NYCT is not in his vocabulary, might I suggest the Department of Subways?
-Stef
Nah ... *DOS* would offend us computer geeks and we can stop a 142 cold if we get cheesed. Don't go there, Bronx boy. :)
What? C'mon! Dos is still old reliable.... Can't we keep it simple???
-Stef
These is modern times, brother ... time to XPee on the third rail. Oh wait, wrong board. :)
Old reliable? Nah.
I still like VMS
Now now ... we all know MULTICS is what makes it go. :)
The one thing I'll credit Dos with is that it doesn't try to multitask or tie up the whole computer. Wait, this is a good thing when you're trying to write fast assembly language routines and need to directly access the hardware which will tip off just about any other OS and result in system crashes in various degrees of severity.
mov ax,1
int 0x033
-Robert King
Not MVS? :)
--Mark
Ever tried deleting one of those irritating 0kb files which certain programmes litter your disk with in Windiz? Can't be dun! Error messages until the cows come home! Won't even let you delete the directory. Yet, it's nothing 10 seconds of del and rmdir won't sort out!
I keep ggod ol' Norton File Manager for Windoze around for just that.
It doesn't care about zero byte files, dumping directories (or folders, as Billy wants now) renaming files, creating folders on the fly, moving stuff from drive to drive and 1001 other things.
It's the R-9 of file managers.
I've still kept around Norton Utilities 8.0 for DOS and WinDOZE (lol), with those amazing loopback plugs....it even diagnosed a bad COM port on one of my other computers the other day.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Do you remember back when Norton Untilities was PCTools from Central Point Software?
-Robert King
Still got'um ... and they STILL work!
I had PCTools 4.1 and 4.7, AND 7.0 for a long time, and then when I went to MS-DOS 6, PCTools got totally screwed up.......that's when I got NU 8.0 for Win 3.1/DOS 6.
ALL of these diagnostic/utilities programs that we've been mentioning most probably (99.99%) WILL NOT work under Windows XP/2000, because of it's NTFS and FAT32 structures.
Stuart, RLine86Man
We stopped screwing around and went back to Win95 here - everything else is WINE on Linux ... PCT works just fine in both realms. XPee is a bigger hosejob than Win98 first edition ... design philosophy inhouse is "if it ain't integrated, can't be penetrated" ... works fine for us. Can't fathom WHY an operating system has to have a movie player between the file system and the memory chocks. :)
I know...and half of the friends that I know that even have DeeVeeDee *lol* players can't use the "in-house" software because of an compatibility problem.
Stuart, RLine86Man
'nuff said ... maybe you oughta put them on that spammers' list of "copy ANY DVD" ... sheesh. Amazing though how nicely the Win95 drivers for all that works. Even BVE works a *LOT* better on Win95 than on MiniME or "second coming" ... and a train sim that goes whump-bump like a train of dead R10's ain't no fun. :)
*lmao* Nor does a full double-length Acela Express barrelling down the NEC at 174 MPH on eMSssssTeeSsssss(using "explore route" :-D) when using WhenXPee(s) and the frame rate is <8 fps EVERY SINGLE SECOND OF THE HOUR AND 10 MINUTE RUN! (non-stop)
Stuart, RLine86Man
What is it with that list? I get at least 8 or more of those every time I check my email, whenever I can get into my email.
-Robert King
Forget the movie player, I thought XP had a built in movie editor! If it does, the guy I used to work for could make his life a lot easier by dumping about 85% of his existing equipment and buy a top notch PC with all the latest multimedia equipment in it and opt for Windows XP. That way, he'd be able to make his transit videos using a much more familiar - and 'easier' (at least for the completely computer illiterate) - system than the Amiga with the Video Toaster/Flyer and Kitchen Sync in it.
Also, interestingly enough, I was speaking to one of my friends the other day who picked up a used Pentium 120 based computer a while ago. He was commenting about how well the original version of Windows 95 ran on it. It's being used as an internet terminal so that his big PC doesn't need to be connected to the internet thus avoiding most of the associated security risks.
-Robert King
Heh. As a former broadcast engineer who knows what it takes, he'd be smartest to get an iMac like the REST of the video industry. XPee is a DOG ... it's too busy trying to contact the mothership in Redmond to do an insert edit anywhere near the edit point(s) ... and it's AWFUL for running train sims also. You should see how MSTS induces brain damage faster than you can say R9 breaker panel. :)
I thought that it would be simple enough to for him to learn how to use the equipment he bought to produce streetcar/subway/bus/train videos rather than go out and replace it all needlessly. But if it were to be replaced, you're right about the iMac - but for more reasons than you've stated. As I mentioned, this guy is largely computer illiterate and Macintoshes are very forgiving in this area, much more so than any of the alternatives.
I remember when I was working for Neilson and I was trying to train him on the Amiga which is almost as intuitive as a Macintosh (except that not all files have icons and then there's the CLI aka AmigaShell which he could avoid entirely anyways).
It was absolutely painful. I'd say "click on this..." and he'd ask "Left click or right click?", to which I'd reply "Left click unless you need to use the menus" as per the standard Amiga interface, and this went on each time I told him to click on something. Certainly one advantage of the iMac is that like all Macintoshes and Lisas, it only has one mouse button which immediately eliminates all the confusion surrounding that.
Next lesson for Ray: Drawer icons in Workbench are the same thing as folder icons in Windows. And "Guru Meditation" doesn't mean that the Amiga is deep in thought, contemplating gourmet cooking. It means something went very, very wrong with the computer. :)
-Robert King
Certainly one advantage of the iMac is that like all Macintoshes and Lisas, it only has one mouse button which immediately eliminates all the confusion surrounding that.
Hate to burst your bubble, but... while it may still come with a one-button mouse, most of us Mac users have Logitech three-button wheel mice now...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, but it still WORKS, right? :)
Absolutely!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To be completely honest, the only place I've seen third party mice and keyboards for Macintoshes is the Mac Warehouse catalogue. None of the people I know who have Macs have retrofitted them...
What do the other two buttons on the mouse do, or can they be configured to perform custom tasks?
-Robert King
Configurable. The biggest advantage is the scrolling wheel, which I use when editing documents and reading almost anything on the web, and the double-click effect that I get from depressing the wheel (that's programmable, you can set any one of a number of commands there). The right button has occasional uses in certain applications too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've set my mouse to do the same (with the Double click)....ergonomically better.....less strain on the index finger....especially for someone who was just diagnosed with CTS 6 months ago :(
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'd hafta agree with you there.........MSTS runs 5000000000000000% faster and smoother in MiniME than in XPee.......
Stuart, RLine86Man
P.S.: And this is from someone who's logged in around 1,100 hours on MSTS using both MiniME and XPee
Now the next thing I'm gonna want is a few NYCT routes for MSTS and possibly a few MNRR and LIRR routes.....
Stuart, RLine86 and JamaicaStation AND GrandCentralStationMan
It wasn't PCTools........PCTools was manufactured SEPERATELY (by the company you mentioned), but Norton Utilities, as far back as 1.0 was made by HIM (Peter Norton), and the next version I had was 8.0, and that was manufactured by Symantec with his "trademark" (and still is).
Stuart, RLine86Man
You're right. I got confused, I'm pretty sure that Symantec gobbled Central Point somewhere along the line and one of their other products reappeared as a later edition bearing the Symantec company name but I can't remember what it was.
We have still have PCTools 5.1 and it was very useful for file management and keeping our XT's hard drive defragmented. The encryption utility in there is still quite useful which is the only reason I keep it around, loaded on my computer.
-Robert King
You're absolutely right ... Symantec did INDEED "acquire" PC-Tools and CPS in order to clear the marketplace ... just like when NAI/McAfoo put Doctor Solomon out of his misery ... when you can't make a better mousetrap, a grenade is always a solution. :)
Oh, gawd......but you're right, too....NA bought out MackAfie (lol) just before version 4 came out into the market.......and I didn't know Simmanteck (intentional misspell) took over Central Point Softwear..........
Stuart, RLine86Man
Don't mind my attitudes here - I've been playing with computers LONGER than either Billy of Gates or Steve of Jobs - they're both several years younger than me and I was THERE when Billy came along to screw up the MITS Altair ... I'm a throwback to the days when the ONLY time you ever needed to reboot a computer was when the firetrucks left and the building had been pumped out or the power failure that lasted days was finally over. Worked many years as chief of a state agency's computer networks and thus have this obsession with security and "uptime" ... Billy makes crap even if it happens to work for the moment. :)
That people give him MORE money believing "this NEW version of Windows will be the one" only shows why lottery sales remain high and casinos make money too. Heh. But don't mind me, I'm a PROFESSIONAL cynic, kids don't try this at home!
I may not have been "around" when Billy boy started his evil empire, but I still do have 15 years of IBM-XT, etc. and newer hardware and software experience...and I'm currently the IT Manager for a large law firm in Midtown (NY)...a not so easy job.... *lol* (especially since all of the computers are about to run up their lease, all, except mine, which is the Network server, and is less than a month old :) )
Stuart, RLine86 and Internal human hard driveman *lol*
Law firms are REMARKABLY similar to state agencies which have more than their own share of "barristers" on premises ... so it's the old "You lost my document" game, eh? WordPervert with all the fixin's? My sympathies guy and I wasn't intending to rub anyone's nose ... I find most folks who are rabid Redmond foamers cut their teeth on Win98 and know *everything* and never saw earlier days when computers actually FUNCTIONED. :)
But yeah, you've obviously assumed the position in a real world of Microsquat. We were lucky - we originally had Novell servers and converted the agency over to Solaris and Linux ... since I left, they decided to go to NTee and now NOTHING works, they're too busy trying to FIND and remove viruses to get any work done. Heh.
I find most folks who are rabid Redmond foamers cut
their teeth on Win98 and know *everything* and never saw earlier days when computers actually FUNCTIONED. :)
I assume you're talking about the pro-Redmond foamers? I know a lot of vocal anti-Redmond foamers. The interesting thing is that most of these people I know (perhaps even all of them) own and use PCs with Windows of some sort as their primary computers. Offhand I can't even think of one does Macintosh; all the people who I use those are in the arts/media end of things and are hardly computer geeks.
WordPerfect 8 is actually quite good. I haven't had an opportunity to try out 9 yet but some computers at York U seem to have it. At least WP doesn't eat documents and then give them back with the layout substantially rearranged like Word does. Wonder if anybody bought FinalWriter 95?
-Robert King
We use WP 8 (and I use WP 9, and am working on acquiring WP 2002 for our eventual upgrade [out of my control, btw--I'd rather stick with Win98 than go up to XPee for all of the workstations] to XPee) and my network server is using XPee Professional, unfortunately......we're using NAV Corporate Edition with all of the fixins, but the client workstations don't recongize the "NAV server"......go figure *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
I remember hearing somewhere that the legal profession prefers WordPerfect to Word but I can't remember why offhand. So I'm not surprised to hear that you're using it since you're in a law firm... How do you like the XP blue and green jellybean interface?
-Robert King
One werd: UGH!
Yeah, we use WP for a multitude of reasons, one of which is that it's more compatible with WestMate (the "Westlaw" [www.westlaw.com] program rather than the internet) as far as emailing cases to other lawyers in the firm, etc., etc. That's the main reason that I know of...the lead partner doesn't want to go to Word, even though I've got 8 years of experience with that, and only about a year or so on WP.
Stuart, RLine86Man
We did several studies on Word vs. WordPervert for the state ... the answwer comes out the same EVERY time ... the WIGS like Word because it keeps you looking busy diddling this and that ... the SECRETARIES prefer WordPervert because it works and doesn't require so much futzing to get through a document. If you KNOW how to type, WordPervert is the way to go. If you prefer to screw around, Word's the answer ... no joke - each study always came to the same answers which is why the State and most courts and attorneys go with WordPervert ...
WordPerfect certainly is better for writing. Much less fiddling around with it since it rarely eats work and hands it back rearranged and you don't have to fight with it to get formatting and layout done. You also don't have to contend with being held up by waddling Einsteins or bent paperclips offering needless advice when you start it up either. If I'm going to be forced to watch a bent paperclip dance around the screen they could at least make it interesting and put the darn thing on the rack - that would fix the dancing bent paperclip pretty quick!
-Robert King
Now now ... be nice to "clippy" ... "clippy" got that way after an argument with an R9 and hasn't been the same since. :)
I know, I know, I decided put "clippy" out of his miserly by turning off the Intelligent Assistant (or whatever Microsoft calls it) entirely...
I feel so sorry for that poor R9 though...
:)
-Robert King
"Poor R9" didn't feel a thing ... in fact, you could subtly notice that its anticlimber raised a bit into a smirk after 12-9'ing "clippy" ...
So it was really a successful 'practice run' for Mr. R9 before taking on other, uh, 'projects'... >:)
-Robert King
In manufacturing, *NOTHING* passes the "train test" ...
*lmaorotf* and Einstein got that hairdo when he fell off da platform and came into contact with the third rail :-D (or was he pushed?! {Dang, I don't remember :-D})
I can't imagine what the dog assistant would do by the third rail - up with one of his hind legs and wheee? There was a thread about doing that on the third rail awhile ago wasn't there? Perhaps Einstein got the hairdo on that R160 mockup that has the Van de Graf generator instead of the plain old boring MG set. :)
-Robert King
I actually kinda like the cat one...it's soooo cute :-D *lol*
And yeah, there was a p-ssin' on the 3rd rail, like 500 post thread (it was one THICK thread of wool that one!!!!!!!!!!!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The cat and the blob are my favourites, especially the cat which actually does visually act like a cat in some respects. They aren't outright annoying or silly like the others. If I remember from that thread correctly, it was discussed how cats succesfully evade the perils of the third rail too. On the other hand, the dancing paperclip is total fiction; the only time I've seen paperclips dance is in the presence of a strong magnet and we all know how well computers and strong magnets get along...
-Robert King
It's a subliminal message on how to fix ALL of your Windows problems. :)
>>> I remember hearing somewhere that the legal profession prefers WordPerfect to Word but I can't remember why offhand. <<<
To understand the preference for WordPerfect you have to go back to those prehistoric times before Windows, when no one was considered a real programer unless he could write Assembly and decipher scraps of machine code while troubleshooting.
Word processing in law firms was done on dedicated computers called "word processors" which ran with proprietary software and cost $8-10,000.00. Popular brands included Wang, Burroughs, Lanier, and Xerox. Some very small firms and sole practitioners who wanted to do more than just word processing opted for personal computers with a word processing program. In the beginning there was WordStar. It was a word processor which ran in 48k of RAM with overlays, under CP/M at a time when the maximum RAM in a computer was 64k and processor speeds of 2mhz were considered fast, mice were rodents to be kept out of the office, and a "letter quality" printer was a daisy wheel impact printer.
When IBM introduced the DOS based computer, and HP introduced the laser printer, the days of the dedicated word processors were numbered. WordStar published a DOS version of their program, but it was nothing but a translation of the old 48k program and did not take advantage of the mouse or the added memory capacity of the new machines. Like the dinosaurs who could not adapt, WordStar disappeared.
WordPerfect was the first word processing program written specifically for DOS and laser printers which took advantage of the additional RAM of DOS machines. The company offered free training to legal secretaries (and other users) and provided 24 hour free technical support via an 800 number. Therefore a legal secretary working at 1:00 A.M. to try to get an important pleading done could call to get help formatting it. Those tech reps were not just people reading canned answers from a monitor either. If a problem could not be solved immediately, it would be referred to a software engineer, and if necessary a software patch would be sent to the customer. Regular update patches were sent to all registered customers without charge. WordPerfect also developed a legal package which included a spell checker with legal terms and special things like the ability to easily prepare lined and numbered pleading paper, tables of contents and tables of authorities. WordPerfect successfully upgraded to a Windows edition.
Microsoft introduced Word later than WordPerfect, and therefore had quite a bit of catching up to do. Microsoft introduced the "Office Suite" bundling their word processor with a spreadsheet and data base program which could all interact. WordPerfect did not have the ability to do that. Instead, the company was sold to Corel, which bundled other programs with WordPerfect to make their own office suite. Those other programs do not work as well as their Microsoft counterparts. That and the belief by many that it is best to get the operating system and the application programs from the same source has caused Word to pass WordPerfect in total sales. Many senior legal secretaries in large older firms have remained loyal to WordPerfect because it was the first word processing program that did the job, and the company retains a great deal of good will even though it no longer provides the service it did when it was based in Utah. Newer law firms tend to use Word rather than WordPerfect.
Tom
Tom's the man :-D
I still remember using WP 5.0 when I was able to get it from my dad's office @ the MTA Legal Department (a LONG time ago)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Don't forget that Novell owned WordPerfect etc. for a short while before selling it off at a greatly reduced price to Corel.
We got WordPerfect 4.9 way back when (and we've been buying the reduced price upgrades since then) just because of its support for laser printers. Or first computer system was an XT clone system and a Hewlett Packard Laserjet Series 2 which is a tank of a printer. We still have the printer and it resides on my computers (the cable gets switched between the big Amiga and the PC [Pretty Crummy] as needed).
-Robert King
Yepper ... we're a LINUX house here with a mix of Win95 and Windows THREE POINT ONE on desktops - one person on Win98 who we taunt a lot and a couple of Mac heads ... WordPervert is the order of the day here and Star Office for those who *insist* on sending us unreadable files in Church of Redmond format which are rapidly converted to something useful. WIth Linux at the core of our system though, EVERY computer on the network has no troubles exchanging files and I don't have to sit and babysit servers.
Just for laughs, went and looked at our main Linux file server. Last time it was booted was January 12, 2000 ... maybe I'll shut it down and kick it back up for laughs and giggles. Nah. :)
Nuts, I should have figured on your using WP - I knew you were running some Linux which as far as 'brand name' word processors go means WordPerfect... We've been using WP ever since we bought the XT and I have no plans to change except for when I'm working on the Ami and it's FinalWriter 5 (the old Ami version of WordPerfect's pretty sorry but I do have it and occasionally use it for PC compatibility nonetheless).
About the server - nah, why bother taking down the network during the time it takes to restart?
-Robert King
It's true, if you can't outdo the competition you can always buy them, at least after giving them a very good run for their money first. It's quite like how the IND did it, when you look at it.
-Robert King
Yep ... but the purchase price is MUCH better if you screw with them before you eat them ... whoops ... IND once again. :)
I kept PCT 7.1 as long as I could for the same reason......and NU 8.0, too....for same reason.......but when I got Windows 95 in '96, none of it worked at all, and the only other program that DID work worked with some "restrictions" when it came to management....that's when I went to just the Win95 built-in crap......when Symantec came out with Norton Systemworks, I bought it right away, I hated the WinDOZE built in crap-ola.
Stuart, RLine86Man
When we got our first 'new' computer in late 1995, finally displacing the faithful XT at last, I discovered that I liked Windows Explorer even less than File Manager so I decided to bring over PCTools 5.1 so I got out and used the 3.5" disks that it came on (it came with both 3.5s and the 5.25s which were used on the XT) and discovered that it just didn't work. So we ended up tromping down to the local software shop and getting Norton Systemworks and the Windows 95 version of NAV as a package deal shortly after they came available. It was about that time that we got on the internet using the new computer and I found that there were other streetcar/subway people around.
-Robert King ("He's not looking at porn - he's looking at train pictures again!")
TRAIN porn ... :)
Or...he may think it's the Department Of Sanitation. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Look out ... somewhere down by the pier, Sanitation might very well have a GP-38 idling. :)
You guys are all too mudey for your own good. Mike has a point. It's like what we call the T in Boston. Is that subway, street cars, commuter rail, bus rapid transit, or buses?
I call actually call the agency "NYCTA". Am I wrong in G-O-D's eyes?
Yo HO, dewd! *YOU* are correct ... despite all the shell games, it's STILL NYCTA ... now STEP AWAY from the 142 or we'll have to ventilate your kidney. :)
Fine, I'll just say NYC Subway. Happy?
Look, all these people who work for NYCT are telling you that
it is called NYCT and it has never been called NYCS {although
was NYCTS in the 1940s}.
Isn't the new "public" name of NYCTA-Dept. of Subways "MTA New York City Subway?" That's what the logo on the cars reads.
NYCTA was replaced by MTA - New York City Transit. That's
purely a DBA. The NYCTA continues to exist for legal purposes.
I second that motion :-D. We do "outside counsel" personal injury work for NYCTA and (for legal purposes) the TBTA.
But our biggest case with NYCTA is U.S. v. New York City Transit Authority (I forgot the S.D.N.Y. [Southern District of New York {Federal Court}] Index #)---it's an asbestos abatement case regarding removal of "transite" from several stations on the M and (at that time D/Q) lines.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm aware that the legal names haven't changed. What the public sees on their rolling stock is "MTA New York City Subway," so it's understandable that one could call it "NYCS" (not to be confused with M - New York City Surface, of course).
What you see from them says NYCT vs. NYCTA, or as I say they no longer have any AUTHORITY ... in their name.
But "officially" I think they are still NYCTA even if it's not printed on anything.
Mr rt__:^)
Read my first response to this part of the thread........I explained it too
Sure, NYCT is not perfect. Far from it. And I am the first person to complain about it on this board. But looking at it from the numbers of people served, with the slow trains, and even if there are delays enroute, it is the most efficient, quickest and lowest cost mode of transportation in the area. Even with delays enroute, how often can people say that they are more than 10 minutes late to their destinations vs. the time needed when there are no delays at all?
I look at the bright side each and every day no matter how bad the system may appear. I have a new job and new work...every eight hour day is completed with satisfaction and I don't have to worry about the next morning. I am alive and well, just got a raise in salary, my pick was very good because I'm still M/F rdo S/S and some of my crew shifted over to 239/180 with me. I have new friends and can still be near them AND I'm not getting so dirty anymore. If you read my posts you know I'm frustrated that CED does not do as much as they can to MAKE TRAINS GO. I will always work, be eager to work and will NEVER do the 'TA Shuffle.' CI Peter is OnTheJuice
I have to agree. Sure the subway isn't perfect, but where else do you have so many routes, alot of which has express and local service (New York is not unique in local/express service, but most systems don't have that to the extent NY does, and alot just have local service) Also just look how far the system has come in the last 10-15 years. It was a disaster, and now the trains are much cleaner, and the stations too. The newest renovated stations are almost masterpices. Most have been redone very tastefully, while perserving, or in some cases starting from scratch on the mosaics (like Fulton on the JMZ) Along the Broadway line they have removed the "mistakes of the 70's" and are doing a hell of a job on the stations. Even there is a long way to go to make the system "perfect", if there is a such thing, but I think the subway is slowly becoming a class act!
New York is not unique in local/express service, but most systems don't have that to the extent NY does, and alot just have local service
It is one of the biggest problems in London that the District Line's deep level tracks were never built. Now there are 30tph between Gloucester Road and Tower Hill and not enough trains on any of the western branches. At least NYC got the 6th Av Express Tracks. Imagine it without those.
At least NYC got the 6th Av Express Tracks. Imagine it without those.
Don't have to ... they're out until 2004 :)
--Mark
Mike, come to London to see a real system :)
Simon
Swindon UK
He'd probably complain he couldn't get to North Weald any more. But you know what they say, don't look back in Ongar. ;-)
James
Birmingham, UK
I don't think our American hosts would understand that :)
Simon
Swindon UK
I don't think our American hosts would understand that :)
Au contraire. Better to look back in Ongar than Epping ... eh ???
[grin]
Simon, if he does, will you please keep him?
I did and ever since I have had this odd urge to mind gaps.
"I have had this odd urge to mind gaps."
Mike, between the ears?
One needs gaps between the ears, otherwise how would sound make it from the ears to the brain?
That gap between my ears allows a flashlight to shine unobstructed! Hoe else would I have become a Car Inspector? CI Peter
Hey buddy. You wanna try to keep up a system that is so big and so old. its 97 years old and i love the system. if you dont like it dont use it walk or drive.
That was until I caught a PATH train at 14th St. The station was clean and the tunnels were considerably less dank. The trains had acceleration and quickly reached speeds of 30-45 mph. When we came to one of those tight PATH curves we took it at 25 mph and the ride was smooth as silk. There was only the slightest of squeals. What is the deal here?
According to the National Transportation Database for the year 2000, the average speed for a NYCT train in revenue service was 18.5 mph. It was not the slowest in the country. That honor belongs to SEPTA at 18.4 mph. The PATH system operated at 18.8 mph average. With the average speed of all three systems being within ½ mph, I'd say it's a draw. Perhaps it's time to check your speed measurement methodology.
The average operating speed is calculated by taking the annual vehicle revenue miles and dividing it by the annual vehicle revenue hours.
Don't confuse jersey Mike with facts. His mind is made up.
And the PATH as that long uninterrupted run from Harrison to Journal Square, which in normal circumstances is done by at least 25% of all trains. NYCTA has long runs too, but as a far smaller percentage of all trains and runs.
A few days ago we were discussing operations on the BMT Culver Linen and Paul asked if I had some information about it. It took me some time to dig out and its not as complete as I would like it to be. The present Culver "elevated" structure was placed in service at 4am on March 16,1919. It was extended to Avenue X on May 10 and Coney Island on May 1,1920. This was not a new service it merely replaced the original surface line.
Prior to the openning of the Fourth Avenue Subway the prime access route to Manhttan for the Sea Bits, West End and Culver Lines was the Fifth Avenue El. When the Fourth Avenue Subway openned the Sea Bits and West End promptly started using it to reach Manhattan. The Culver stayed an el only operation having platform clearances for nine foot wide cars.
The Nassau Street Line openned on May 30,1931 between Chambers Street and Court Street . The platform nosings were removed so that 10 foot wide cars could run on the Culver Line.
Culver "subway" service operated from 7am to 7 pm Monday through Saturday. #5 Culver Locals ran between Chamers Street and Coney Island via tunnel. During the weekday am and pm rush and the Saturday am rush the #5 Culver Express ran between Chambers Street and Kings Highway. Trains ran express on Fourth Avenue and bypassed both Dekalb Avenue and Myrtle Avenue, they ran anti-clockwise through the Nassau Street Loop. They also ran non-stop in the direction of light traffic between 9 Avenue and Kings Highway although starting April 25,1934 they stopped at 18 Avenue.
Culver "el' service ran between Sands Street and Coney Island except during middays from September to June when they terminated at 9 Avenue.During rush hours these trains ran express between Atlantic Avenue and 36 Street on the Fith Avenue El stopping only at 9 Street.
The Fifth Avenue El was closed on June 1,1940 and Culver "subway " local service now ran between Chambers Street and Coney Island during non-rush hours. Culver Express service continued to run as described above. Culver "el" service continued to run during rush hours between 9 Avenue and Coney Island.
June 21,1952 was the last day of operation of the Saturday am Culver express and the el shuttles between 9 Avenue and Coney Island . On June 26,1952 the rush hour el shuttle were cut back to run between Kings Highway and Coney Island only. Due to this factor I would say that this was the last day of express operation on the Culver Line itself although the rush hours trains contiuned to run express on Fourth Avenue.
The last through Culver Line train to Coney Ilsand ran on October 29,1954 and Culver serivce was cut back to Ditmas Avenue. Culver shuttle would now run during weekday evening and midnights and all day Saturday and Sunday between 36 Street and Ditmas Avenue. Culver Local service would run weekday midday between Chambers Street and Ditmas Avenue via tunnel whlie rush hour express service continued as described above. Because of the difficulty in cutting trains at Ditmas Avenue after the am rush southbound six car tains terminated at 9 Avenue to be replaced by three car trains. This procedure was reversed before the pm rush.
May 28,1959 all Culver trains run between 9 Avenue and Ditmas Avenue.
May 10,1975 was the last day of the Culver Shuttle. The last train left 9 Avenue at 1154pm and Ditmas Avenue at 1206am on May 11,1975. It consisted of cars 8525-8524-8059-8058. I rode it the last day but did not stay around for the last run.
I culled this information from sevral different articles in the "The Bulletin" of the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association.
"BMT Service History, 1924-1949" by Mr Bernie Linder
"Broklyn Rapid Transit Service 1908-1948" by Mr Bernard Linder
"Culver Line Article, June 2000" by Mr Bernie Linder.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
The truly amazing thing is that the BMT managed to scrape together enough steel subway cars in 1931 to offer subway service via the Culver line at all during rush hours, albeit only to Kings Highway. The main reason for expressing the direction of light traffic was that the shortened run time freed up a set of equipment.
-- Ed Sachs
BMT types who wanted trains to run fast.
IRT types who used cattle prods to make the trains run *exatctly* on time.
Well. Let's legalize IND-types with cattle prods on the platforms. Us types.
Larry:
This is great stuff.
I'm thinking of doing my Master's Thesis in History on whether or not the Culver Line really spurned growth in my neighborhood, Gravesend, where I grew up.
Too many authors have made the statement in recent books that once the El was built, development automatically happened. I don't think that was the case with the neighborhoods on the tail end of the Culver, and your explanation of the service here supports it. The Culver line was basically just an EL service until 1934, even though it was completed in 1919.
My dad moved into Gravesend (1 block from the Ave U station) in 1944, and there were still farms and dirt roads. It wasn't until after the Second World War (1947, 1948) that development made the neighborhood the way it looks today. 1934 was the middle of the Great Depression, and no one was doing much development of any kind.
The way I would get started would be to somehow view passenger counts at the Ave U Culver Line station and see where the boom began. Does anyone think the the TA would keep records of BMT passenger counts?
Does anyone think the TA would keep records of BMT passenger counts? Well, maybe not the TA but yes, look at www.bmt-lines.com, you have fares collected station by station from 1927-28.
I have only one word for the site:
WOW!
I've enjoyed it, too.
BMT-Lines is a WONDERFUL place ... pity it's kinda been "frozen in time" for a while now with few additions or changes in the past year. But like Joekoerner, palter.org and a handful of others, there's some REALLY neat nostalgia out there which should be EXPANDED if folks were to do some digging and provide more "dirt" for these sites to ADD to their collections (naturally, nycsubway.org's library as well) ...
As those who lived in those times are starting to fade away, I hope that others are willing to come forward with their own stories like I've tried to do here along with others about how the subway WAS, dig out whatever they have, and help to place what once was as a comparison to what "is" so we can all evaluate the experience and have a taste for the Jurassic epoch of the subways.
As an old LUDDITE who didn't need steenking speedos or anything else besides the steel in my face and the SOUND of the train as to how I was doing on the timing, it'd be really neat if there were more evidence of how UNcomplicated the life of most train crews once was without the benefits of "technology." But I'm babbling here on a thought that didn't originate here. Don't mind me, 51st Birthday on the 15th, and have been WAY too busy to celebrate it. I always get a bit psychotic on my birthday ... this is it. :)
Anyhoo, BMT-Lines is a GREAT place. Just wish it had more over the time it's been there. Given how Brooklyn kids (I was from daBronx) seem to SERIOUSLY outnumber Bronx foamers, one would expect a lot more goodies would have been made available to the site host ... BMT is a wonder even if I'm from the Bronx and those damned islander WIMPS wouldn't set foot in daBronx for fear of wetting their pants, I guess. I'm ex-IRT, pro-IND ... whoops. :)
Are there sites like that for the IRT and the IND?
It seems as though nobody loved the IND, and the IRT was pretty much the same ... right here is pretty much it aside from a few inclusions at other sites. Palter.org has a good amount of IRT stuff though, including 3rd avenue el and more ...
I've wondered why I don't see more IRT stuff. I think it may be that all the existing IRT is from the Subway era. When the last piece of the 3rd Avenue L closed, there went the last pre-Contract 1 IRT. Al the Manhattan els are gone almost without a trace.
With the BMT there is more left to see from BRT days, despite huge losses post-Unification. Dare I say Brooklynites are more passionate?
Paul, your site is wonderful too. I don't know about Brooklynites being more passionate. I think just that the BMT had a lot more to offer and a lot more going for it than the other two (former) divisions did.
Yeah, that might be it ... I remember when I was a kid that the IRT was *despised* as being "rickety" and "filthy" ... I thought it was pretty neat but then kids and trains ... well ... the IND may have had "mood lighting" but compared to the IRT, it was a "real" railroad and fast as all getout ...
Didn't really discover the BMT until my teens and it came across to me as ANCIENT ... wouldn't have surprised me if MOSES used it (not Robert) ... heh. But yeah, Brooklynites at least had an amazingly varied railroad down yonder ... the IRT was elevateds and small stained holes in the ground, IND was BIG hole in the ground and the BMT had just about everything. I can see why it was the favorite division. :)
Didn't really discover the BMT until my teens and it came across to me as ANCIENT ... wouldn't have surprised me if MOSES used it (not Robert) ...
Legend has it that MOSES (not Ronert) did use the BRT to lead the Israelites out of the Lower East Side. ;-)
Now I suppose you'll say that's a lot of bull rush. (ouch!)
Legend has it that MOSES (not Ronert) did use the BRT to lead the Israelites out of the Lower East Side. ;-)
Did he part the East River, or did he simply take the el across the Brooklyn Bridge? hehe
Well ... maybe Moses got on the wrong train then ... he would have had to have taken the D since the BRT didn't serve the Concourse. :)
Paul: I thought that Moses didn't like trains. Thats why he built all those highways.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think he means biblical Moses, not Robert.
I'll have to agree. The BMT offers the best of both worlds: Elevated, subway, Just very interesting. However the Irt stations are very interesting also. Even the IND's stations are kind of cool in their own way.....Hell I love the whole subway.
Same here ... but ya gotta admit - if you're going to do a web site, the BMT gives you a LOT more to show. Grab an IND express stop and an IND local stop and you can pretty much just change the station signs and they all look the same. IRT's got a bit more variety, but none of the MAJOR variety exists any longer. What lovely steelwork there once was on the el platforms has been replaced with that stupid corrugated steel ... I could go on and on but the BMT definitely has the "variety advantage" nowadays, even with the Myrt gone and the Franklin redone.
The grandest el in the system is the West End line, over New Utrecht Ave and 86th St. Myrtle Ave is almost as good. The West End is not rickety and has full 600 foot trains. Myrtle is on the rusty side, and has shorter trains. In those times when the TA routes the M over the West End, you have the best of all possible rides, provided you have a railfan window.
I've already admitted my dream apartment is just off New Utrecht Avenue, where 13 Av crosses it. The storefront would house a railfan saloon.
My father's cousin lived just off of New Utrecht on 71st St. We visited him one evening in July of 1965 during our visit ro the city, and I couldn't help but hear trains rumbling by the whole time. It was all I could do to keep from wanting to go for a ride right then and there. Who knows? Maybe I could have seen or ridden on a Triplex had I gone.
Too bad the West End can not be four tracks as the Brighton is over Brighton Beach Avenue.
What saved a lot of the old BMT elevated lines was their integration with the BMT subway system. Most of the els in Manhattan were not rebuilt in this way, which meant that they were obsolete by WWII.
Paul: I think that its more a question of what was done by each company with the Dual Contracts. The IRT built its subway lines to supplement the existing el lines. The East and West Side IRT Mains complemented rather then replaced the existing 2nd,3rd,6th and 9th Avenue Els. In The Bronx they built more lines and extended the existing Suburban Railway. They also ventured into Queens and Brooklyn.
The BMT built its subway lines, i.e. Fourth Avenue, Broadway, Nassau Street and Centre Street to connect the already existing surface right-of-way lines and elevated lines to provide through service into Manhattan. Inadvertenly the Fourth Avenue subway did render the Fifth Avenue redundant. The BMT did as much as they could to bring the Fulton Street El up to subway standards, witness the introduction of the C-Types and perforce the cutting back of the platforms and the plans for an Ashland Place Connection. The 14 Street Line did cut accross new territory but eventually connected up with the Canarsie Line.
The IRT did have some joint subway/el service in The Bronx and in Queens but by an large the two systems stayed separate. The BMT freely mixed subway and el services.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, Selkirk, that was about the only thing bad about the BMT, that it never reached the Bronx before it officially went out of existence. But, at least the Brightliners of BMT trackage beat a path there with the marriage of the Brighton and Concourse lines in 1967. Could of done without your R1/9 IND rolling stock on BMT trackage, however.....
Heh. Some of us would have agreed ... I *loved* them old things. The 32's were cool and all as were the bingbongs, but well maintained (and there WERE a few) R1/9's could beat anything else on the road. Unfortunately, most of them were DOGS by the 70's ...
Except for R-6-2 1233. It and the train it was heading got up to 50-55 on the Union Turnpike-Parsons Blvd stretch in 1973. At least Wayne says the bull and pinion gears hit A-440, which is an all-out sprint in anybody's book.
Selkirk, many happy returns. I'm also 1951 vintage. May.
Thank ya! Advance wishes back at ya ... I outlived the redbirds! :)
Hey, I can make the same claim, being a 1956 relic myself.
Heh. I buried the 12's and the 17's. :)
Wait a minute. The R-12s arrived in 1948-49. They predated you.:-)
Technicality! Whoops. :)
April for me. Lived on the Culver line (Ave I/18 Av), but don't remember the BMT Culver pre-1954 (only 3 at the time). I do remember that the 1959 schematic map had express symbols for the Culver and was vague about where it actually went (other than Ditmas). I guess this reflects the end of the Nassau runs that probably were impending when the map was made.
I remember my first trip on the shuttle, though. The conductor used keys to open the doors. I thought the 9 Av station and the West End run west of there were the coolest things I ever saw in the system.
IIRC Bill "Newkirk" is also 1951 stock. That would make at least four of us.
We KiQ some butt! :)
On what line did the R12-22 last run and what were the car nos. on the last run of these equipment if anybody has records of it?
Amin: Hi, I can recall the last run of the R-12, 14 and 15's was in early 1983 on the 1,2,3, and occasionally 5 lines. For many years during the 70's, they ONLy ran on the 7 Av IRT lines and the SS South Ferry shuttle, but in '82-3, they were sprinkled onto the #5 also. That summer, R-62's arrived and the 2, 3, 4, and 5 lines switched Brooklyn terminals. The other cars, R-17-22 were phased out by 1988. After that, for a few months, I would see maybe 1 R-17 in a train on the #5 White Plains Road Rush Hour Express. That's my recollection. Tony Leong
The R-12s were gone in 1981 while the R-14s soldiered on until late 1984. I saw one or two of them during my October 1984 visit.
The R12's were retired in 1981. The R14 & R15's were retired in late 1984 as the first R62's appeared. These cars were always scattered among other cars, so they didn't just operate on "one" line at the end of their lives. The R21 & R22 ran until late 1987. I remember these cars in their last 2 years of service, almost exclusively running on the #3 & #5 lines. The R17 lasted into spring 1988. About 30 R17's were actually painted redbird red and ran on the #5 line until the very end.
Wasn't it 16 R17 that were repainted Redbird Red? Were did you hear about 30 repainted?
The way I understood it, the R-17s which were painted Redbird red were sent over to the 7 to fill in for the single unit R-33s while they were undergoing GOH.
Yup, then they ran on the TS shuttle until the R62A's took over in 1987.
A RUSSIAN RED ARMY SECRET MILITARY MAP OF NEW YORK is being offered on eBay, "was brought directly from Moscow, Russia, where is was purchased from the retired Red Army officer."
I think its kind of neat, what with such things as Tottenville and New York spelled with Cryllic characters, but I can't see what makes it "secret." The detail is several orders of magnitude less than the maps anyone can buy from the Geodetic Survey, or Hagstrom, for that matter.
OTOH, I would bid if I knew it was personally autographed by Boris and Natasha. :)
It's a "topographic military map", which probably means it had stuff like army base locations and other strategic info which wouldn't be on a Hagstrom.
Also, it seems to have info like population density (the red dots covering NYC), but I don't see how that would be useful to a general since they had nuclear missiles that could take out the entire city at the time.
Who said a war needed to go nuclear?
-Hank
If there had been a war, it would have gone nuclear because both countries (USSR and USA) could do so. Luckily, because both of us could start a nuclear war, neither did.
Looks like a map I can get in English from National Geographic Society here in Wash DC, or from the US Govt in Denver.
The buyer looks like s/he collects material from the cold war era.
So I look towards my fellow car inspector with respect inquiring if he has a problem I can assist with: 'Good Morning Komrad Kommander.' This always gets the Russkies attention....they 'don't need no stinkin map.' CI Peter
Are the sliding 68a due to a gap in the dynamic vs pnuematic?
Is it due to bad maintenace?
I am working in Train Dude land again and am looking to learn me sumtin.
Lately they have not slid except for one last week (that was horrible).
Just out of curiosity since I've never run a 68a, do you mean locked wheels when you say "sliding?" That wouldn't be too happy (clop clop clop) ...
No when you apply then release there feels like there is a longer delay before you can ask again. Depending how you do it it sometimes feels like you lost everything.
How do people deal? If you know the line you know where to take 50 and hold it. Some fan or flutter the brake constantly. Some incorporate it into their operation and slide in those last few feet.
Sliders keep us flat footers busy downstairs. CI Peter
Got it ... man, I been off the system WAY too long ... you ARE describing normal operation for an R9 ... especially the "whoops, let's feather it a bit or we're stopping short." Every run was like buying a lottery ticket those days. :)
The 68A's do not slide. Instead, the reaction is delayed from the time that you take the first brake to the time that it actually applies. Unless it's sliding at the end of the braking sequence, in which it might be the rails. Guessing on the last one there.
I've gotta work with the 68A's next week, and believe me, I'm not looking forward to it.
Z ... were you around back in the days of the R1/9's? (I'm figgering that you've been around long enough to at least see them in garbage scow duty) They were a world of "wait five seconds and see what happens" when you yanked a wrench ... your description suggests a nostalgia trip. :)
The only time that I remember seeing an R9 in service is when I was about 4 years old. For some reason, I still remember an R9 E train passing through Lexington Av. I was extended an invitation to operate an R9 up at Branford. I've always wanted to get the controls of an R9, all I have to do is find a way up there via public transport this summer.
We're hoping to get up there ourselves ... be happy to show you the cab there - used to do those in my sleep. Literally. Heh. When Nancy and I came to the city, we were fortunate enough to run into a switchman that was an alma mater of the "air only club" and we had a grand old time comapring notes. They're an ... interesting car. Old school ... pull and count, hope they grab. Maybe. :)
We'd be getting there from Smallbany across the Berkshire spur and down 91 (?) from Springfield or we'd offer to swing by and pick ya up. Hopefully we can work something out to meet up though - you'd love the old girl. Make you even appreciate a 68. Maybe. Heh. But the old girls had personality up the wazoo ... every consist would talk to you and no two the same ... one car by itself will be EASY ...
Yep, those oldtimers were living, breathing, snarling, hissing, throbbing monsters. And I loved 'em just the same. Moaning, groaning, and grunting notwithstanding.
Zman... this summer there will be another SubTalk Field Trip to Seashore in Maine, where we have two R9s (well, actually an R4 and R7A, #s 800 & 1440). I'm sure you can hook up with the group and join us, as there will be carpools from the NYC area. There's even some talk of doing AMTRAK via the Downeaster, in which case I'll pick everyone up in one of our buses.
A number of SubTalkers have in the past had the opportunity to run our "A Train," and I look forward to having more join in the fun this year!
Prospective dates will be announced later this spring...
30 plus days notice, Please. I'd love to go, but weekends I just don't have.
I expect that our colleague Thurston (mr. t) will do the organization again this year he did a great job last time! My guess is it will be in July, though there's plenty of time to figure that out. If people want to come up on a weekday this summer too, I can work that out as well.
Hey todd - have they fixed the overeager brake valve on those cars yet? :)
Premature dumping? Could have used one like that 30 years ago. :)
"they"?
Not sure. I haven't seen "they" in a while! But I'll check...
Have they fixed the dynamiting problem with the 800?
Not sure, EB, but I'll check on it. If not, perhaps next summer you and TTPFKAMR46 can come up and see what's up. I also have this Hi-V you should check out :-)
You still reemember his handle after all this time. He is on release so he can co-ordinate his vacation to coincide with mine and that will be a nice trip. Give me a shout the next time you are in the are. I owe you a cab ride.
Well if they didn't, maybe we could get "OnTheJuice Peter" to tag along to help. Either that or we fling him in the trunk of the car.
R9 work is GOOD work. Heh. But I think Unca Peter would be a bit lost without his radio key. Them magnet valves DID require Jesuits bearing ball peins. "Dude" was a former R-9 banger ... he can tell ya. If someone's willing to describe the details, there's every chance on the planet that i encountered it in the cab, gave the old toots and copped me "personalized RCI service" and sat and WATCHED what they phucked with so's I could do it too. Heh.
Back in my days in the Holy Ronan Empire, RCI's were WAY too busy to waste time on stupid stuck doors, leaky emergency valves and the like - to EARN the visitation of an RCI and to be sufficiently worthy of same, your train had to be pouring SMOKE from somewhere to be pushed up the "ABD list" and obtain the covetted the "get out of jail with your TMO free certificate that certified 'It's broke' card" ... you had to have pretty much rewinded the motors yourself trackside to impress an RCI in those days that you REALLY had a problem, and they'd write YOU up if there was a breaker that tripped on the #2 end that you missed in your "rush hour wayside checklist" ... heh.
So yeah, you can CQ DX Unca Peter, or you can have me along with my soldering gun and we'll see what we can cut out. :)
We'd have to tie him to the roof. I need the truck space for those fresh Maine Lobsters.
As a kid I always wanted to be a motorman and since I mostly rode R1-9's in those days they were the trains I always imagined driving. (I was already in my teens when the IND got the 32's, up till then there were only R19's & R10's on the IND) I finally got the chance this past fall at Branford during the Autumn in NY weekend. It was so great to finally have the chance. Especially since it was one of my first days off since 9/11. They gave members their choice of all their equipment that they were using that day including the Low-V and R17 but it was an easy decision!!! Although if they ever get their BMT Standard or the GM (Ralph Kramdem) bus running I'd love a chance driving one of them. I am probably going to sign up for the motorman's course there in March if I could get off from work
.Here is a picture of me and my son Arthur in the cab of the R-9:(I'm not sure if it will show due to angelfire's rules against remote loading)
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/Motorman_s_cab.jpg
Just copy and paste the url to your address bar, hit enter and go. TAKE THAT, ANGELCAKE. Sarge, I hope you enjoyed youself in that R9, YOU CERTAINLY DESERVE TO.
I've always wanted to get the controls of an R9, all I have to do is find a way up there via public transport this summer.
Z- Shore Line is accessible by Metro North and CT Transit bus, but (assuming you aren't morally opposed to rubber tires) I'm sure you could hitch a ride up with a number of SubTalkers.
Thank you for the info RIPTA.
>>>>>>>>(assuming you aren't morally opposed to rubber tires)
Trust me, when it comes to out of the way areas, I have nooooooo objections to riding in a car as opposed to a train.
Hating to ask, but why worry about sliding 68A equipment if your heading to Train Dude land? All he has are R68 cars and they don't slide (most of the time).
The only thing that resembles the braking pattern of the R68A was something I experienced in the A Div. When they began to E-CAm the R62A cars on the 3 line, they would do a car and put it back into service. This would result in a 9 car consist with two different style brake packages. All of a sudden, guys with 25+ years were overrunning stations.
True had 6 train last night with 5 bad IC's.
I was waiting for a downtown #6 train at 51st street around midnight Friday night (early sat. morn.) for about 10 minutes, when an agent made the announcement that no trains were running. I dunno how long they were out. Anyone know what happened? -Nick
Hey Nick, #4 & #6 line ran on express from 125 st to 42 st this morning because of track work also there is no uptown express becasue of 86th st they are working on the station.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
ahh, ok. that explains why I saw an uptown 4 train passing thru (w/o stopping of course) on the local track! -Nick
No "of course" about it. Normally, when a GO sends express trains to the local track, they make local stops.
I am making O scale (1:48) model of a NYCTA subway station similar to the concrete ones on the Sea Beach route (N) for my O-Gauge model train layout that has NYCTA R42 subway train sets made by Mike's Train House (MTH). I checked out the pictures of the stations on the Sea Beach route on this web site and found out that they were ran-down with peeling paint. I know that subway stations usually have advertising on walls and they usually are mounted in frames that are either vertical or horizontal. Do anyone know the sizes of the advertising frames? Subway stations on the Sea Beach route usually have white station names on black rectangles with a white strip. Do anyone know the sizes of the station signs and sizes of letters on the signs? Jeffrey.
There are no advertising frames on any of the Sea Beach stations. Don't forget about the green mold on the walls :D
Yup, the green mold is what gives those stations their uniqueness. lol
I thought that the stations on the Sea Beach route have advertising. I thought that the 8th Avenue and maybe the Fort Hamilton Parkway stations have advertising but I don't remember. I almost broke my back painting the model of the station today. Jeffrey.
Why aren't passengers allowed to go through the middle doors of the R68s. For danger's sake?
yes
To expand on that answer, when a train of 75-foot cars (like the R-68) goes around a curve, a "scissors effect" is created, in which the car ends separate from each other. A person crossing between 75-foot cars on a curve stands a good chance of falling off and being crushed between the cars. Therefore, the doors are kept locked. This is the case on all 75-foot NYC Transit cars (all of which are BMT/IND), classes R-44 through R-68A.
David
Weren't the cars of the 44 and 46 class supposed to have an automatic door-locking device that would lock the doors only when trains took a curve?
That sounds right, but if it was installed it never worked right, and in any case it isn't there now. I know that the cars (R-46s at least) had an alarm that would sound if someone opened the door -- I heard it at least once, but that was before GOH.
David
I don't recall the circuit you are referring to nor can I find any reference to it. Doesn't mean it didn't exist, though. There was a 'zero speed' circuit that prevented the side door from being opened when the train was in motion or would not allow the brakes to be released until the doors were closed.
Was this circuit you describe original equipment or was it installed by the TA? Does the zero speed circuit exist today, in case somone with a key attempts to open the end doors while a train is in motion?
The circuitry, if i existed was part of the original ATO circuitry. It does not exist today and it is possible to open doors with the train in motion.
Or maybe it was in the original design plans, but not built in. I don't remember it in the pre-GOH days, at least in the 46 car class.
Now that I think about it, it may have been something the politicians asked for AFTER the cars came in. There was a great deal of screaming over the locked storm doors...guess they forgot about the Standards right away.
David
From UPTOWN DOWNTOWN by Stan Fischler (Hawthorn/Dutton 1976), pages 70-71:
"Not everyone was enthusiastic about the new rolling stock. One of the most vocal antagonists was Carol Greitzer, head of the City Council's Mass Transportation Committee. On December 4, 1975 Councilperson Greitzer charged that the city's new subway cars were 'unsafe, impractical and overly costly to maintain.' Ms Greitzer based her charges on a report by a consultant engineer, Dr. Martin Huss, professor of transportation engineering at the Polytechnic Institute of New York. Dr. Huss contended that a design problem in the electric circuitry of the cars could lead to fires and darkened cars and pointed out that there had been a number of fires in these cars while they were standing in the yards. He recommended several changes, including emergency brake-pull cords at each end of the cars; a fire extinguisher at each end of the cars; an automatic lock on end doors to function when trains took a curve (included in original plans but not built in), and installation of safety glass between cars."
David
"He recommended several changes, including emergency brake-pull cords at each end of the cars; a fire extinguisher at each end of the cars; an automatic lock on end doors to function when trains took a curve (included in original plans but not built in), and installation of safety glass between cars."
Very interesting! My interpretation of the end door lock question is that the consultant recommended that the electric lock release be negated when the cars were on a curve. The interior lock release was eliminated during GOH. The Emergency brake Valves at the #2 ends were finally installed in 1990 during the GOH. The fire extinguishers were removed completely although the R-68s have one in each car. There is safety glass installed at the end of every 75' car.
As for Carol Greitzer, is she still around?
Was the negating of the end door lock release solenoids a trainline feature, where if the first car of the train were negating the curve, the future cars would negate their release in anticipation of said curve, or was it a local feature, possibly trapping occupants already crossing between the cars while the cars was still on straight track?
I'd only be speculating since the circuitry was never adopted. I would guess it would be a local circuit dependent onthe position of the associated truck. However, I'd bet that only the interior unlock switch would be disabled - enabling anyone outside to get back inside.
Those interior door release switches were mostly plated over
long before GOH. There used to be a low-pitched alarm that
would come on if either the interior or exterior door release
switch was pulled. That seems to have disappeared during GOH.
You are correct although some of them were un-plated by the populace.
The safety glass I am sure was on original plans, the fire extinguishers were either never put in, or put in at the factory, then the TA removed them since many were being stolen off the cars.
That very well may be, since I could not find any mention of this auto-locking device anywhere. The screaming was done to add to the fire already burning about how these cars were having electrical fires in the yards, according to rumor.
Anyone know how the R is running today?? I heard it's running via the 63rd connector and making local stops in Queens. Can anyone confirm.
I was on the R yesterday. I saw no service diversion notices posted in the cars or the stations.
I was on the R yesterday. I saw no service diversion notices posted in the cars or the stations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just got back from running errands and working out at the gym. The GO was indeed in place. R runs to Manhattan via 63rd tunnel, no N/W via 60th tunnel.
As far as you not seeing any diversion posters in cars or stations, well, it happens all the time. At one point, the TA was on the ball when it came to publicizing service changes. But with the economic situation being what it is, I'm sure the posters and O/T for placing them was the first thing to be cut from the budget.
Rs that I passed today were indeed signed for 63rd St. The 60 St tube is closed - N terminates at 57/7, Q at Times Square; N shuttle in Queens
The N was supposed to run through to Lex (from the south). Was this changed?
In any case, the same GO is in effect for two more weekends.
I asked about the GO earlier because I told a friend from Manhattan that I would meet her at Steinway today for a workout, and wanted to be sure that my directions, "take the R at 63/Lex to Steinway" were correct.
On the way home, we re-entered the system using the entrance where there is no token booth clerk. There were two guys standing in front of the entrance. They had about 100 metrocards in their hands and were sliding them to see if they had any balance left. They were intimidating characters. Looked like members of the Bloods or Crips. At first, when my friend and I first got down the stairs, we thought we would be mugged for sure. It was just us, and the two shady characters who had nothing better to do then hang around an unstaffed subway entrance.
I use this particular station entrance on a weekly basis, and can honestly tell you all that undesirables like the two kids I saw today are always there. Always! Why? Well, it's a great place to hang out. It's underground, and there is no token booth clerk to call the cops. There is a metrocard machine in the middle of the underpass as well. Great place to mug someone. An unsuspecting passenger can take out his wallet to buy a metrocard, and get robbed in the process.
We went downstairs and waited for a s/b R. A G came first. Just after that, I heard a commotion upstairs. Someone confronted the two undesirable looking characters because they were checking metrocards and wouldn't let people through. An R came shortly thereafter, so I don't know how this ended up. But the handwriting is on the wall. NYC needs 24 hour token booths. Period!
Those Queens BLvd local stations can feel real creepy alot of the time.
This is exactly the reason why the station agents are needed 24/7 at all entrances to the system. Are the station agents armed? Of course not, but just a set of eyes which has access to a telephone goes a long way toward customer safety and the perception of it. Of course, whenever this is said by someone like me, a TWU member, an anti-union cynical person will say I am just out to featherbed and give people a job who don't need one and are not productive.
Thank you Bill! We are the eyes and ears of the system, if we see people loitering or selling swipes we do call for police.
If I were working at that entrance and saw that I;d be hitting my EBCS for police.
...just a set of eyes which has access to a telephone goes a long way toward customer safety and the perception of it.
That's because only station agents are endowed with eyes and the ability to use a telephone, that's above the ability of the average primates who ride the subway.
I know you dislike the human presence- I accept that point. Pay phones in the subway are often out of order and even vanadlized where the handstet(the thing you put next to youre ears and mouth) are stripped of their electronics or even completely removed.
Let's say we have special phones. Someone stabs you for your unlimited catd- are uyou going to try to find a phone or a special phone. The subway used to have special payphones that only connected to 911. They were all vandalized and finally removed. cameras can be spray painted. Sure they might in yuour dream world send soemone right away, but it might take an hour or so to get there and inthe meantime you are bacon unless you are suggesting a police escort for camera repairers.
If we see people loitering we can call police before they try to rob or hurt a customer.
I will leave you to your automated subway in no-problem fantasy world where there is no crime.
While I respect your opinion, many New Yorkers are in agreement that the booths with humans need to remain.
I hope you do not become bacon in your fantasy-land subway.
"If we see people loitering we can call police before they try to rob or hurt a customer"
The key word is CAN. It has been my experience that not all transit employees feel the same way you do. Many token booths clerks simply look the other way. It is a sad but true fact.
Vandal proof emergency call boxes similar to those installed at atlantic ave brightn station are more effective in helping a passanger in emergency situations. In addition the stations will not be unmaned. They wil continue to have routine police patrols and cctv cameras to identify the hot spots. Token booth clerks are usesless in helping riders on staions where fare control is not located on the same level as the platform (most stations in the system) Statistics show that a large majority of crime is committed by a small fraction of society. updating technology to quickly identify and aprehend criminals help further reduce crime.
"While I respect your opinion, many New Yorkers are in agreement that the booths with humans need to remain"
The scare tactics the union has used in attempting to block the first wave of token booth closing is a large reason for that belief. In the case of the first wave of booths, the entraces are empty most of the day. In addition if the rideing public is given the choice of having extra manned token booths vs a $2.50 fare, i belive thier opinion will change. If DC, PATH and other large metro transit system can oporate token booth clerk list, NYC transit can operate with fewer token booth clerks
Sometimes it is not that clerks "look the other way". They see alot of people that look suspicious and probably are going to do something. But they can't activate their alarms just because they "think" someone is about or going to do something.
Emergency call boxes and CCTV cameras are great weapons for FIGHTING crime. But it will not PREVENT crime. Have a gang seal the call boxes and/or knock the cameras out of position and they will have at least a few minutes to rob a customer. Even if someone calls 911, it will take a few minutes before police respond.
When people are jamming MVM machines to make some money or are selling swipes at the turnstiles and they see the clerk in the booth activating their alarms and talking on the phone, they know it will take police a few minutes to get there. They have time to walk and get away without being caught.
That is a sad but true fact!
wouldn't CCTV and emergency call boxes that alert an attendent at central cctv monitoring center not just at entry points but throughout the station complex including the platforms do the same or better job.
The cctv central monitoring center would be better equipt to flag out repeat offenders. In addition face reconition software can be used at selective locations to identify possible terrorists and other criminals on police most wanted lists. A simialr system is in use in London.
Is a system like this expensive.
NO!!!
As compared with the current cost of 24 hour token boths at all stations. ITS CHEAPER AND MORE EFFECTIVE
Quite frankly 24 hour token both clerks at all stations is just an expense that the riding public can no longer afford to pay.
The system had some special pay phones that took no money and only connected to 9-1-1. They qwere the most vandalized payphones in the system.CCTV cameras while they sound good,would be subnject to vandalism. I have worked in stations with CCTV. One night the screen went completely white--spray paint. I called the field office and spent five minutes trying to convince the supervisor on the phone that my camera was painted over. It took them an hour to send a supervisor who then called the field office and called a service person who took two hours to show up.
Let;s say we go CCTV and a mobile response team for camera maintenance- it would take time in traffic and while the maintenace team comes the punks can commit crimes, etc.
As far as alarm boxes, some stations have them now which connect to the booth. I always keep the receiver available and 99 of 100 calls are bogus or "I did not know what would happen if I pushed the button" sometimes the station has cameras trained on the callbox and I see people push the button and run. We can talk back to the caller- the boxes are called " Talk Back Boxes" and some stay on the line and respond with unrepeatable language or a tirade against transit. I have worked stations with elevators and kids asre always pushing the telephone button in the elevator which sets off a phone receiver in the booth and they reply with "I did not know what it would do" or "I pushed it by mistake."
let's say you are in an unmanned station and suffer a heart attack or someone stabs you- can you with your pain find a pay phone to call for help. Often times the booth is located at track level and we can see the platform and call for help.
The system had some special pay phones that took no money and only connected to 9-1-1
There is no need for that with regular pay phones and emergency call boxes (that don't have a handset and are difficult to vandalize).
I have worked in stations with CCTV. One night the screen went completely white--spray paint. I called the field office and spent five minutes trying to convince the supervisor on the phone that my camera was painted over. It took them an hour to send a supervisor who then called the field office and called a service person who took two hours to show up.
This doesn't mean the CCTV camera is a failure. If it was designed properly, a painted over camera would immediately summon the police and a repairer. The police should already have been roving nearby.
Let;s say we go CCTV and a mobile response team for camera maintenance- it would take time in traffic and while the maintenace team comes the punks can commit crimes, etc.
And I can assume that you would tackle the perps yourself?
Also, why does your station even have cameras? Is it because there are parts of the station not in view of the booths?
As far as alarm boxes, some stations have them now which connect to the booth. I always keep the receiver available and 99 of 100 calls are bogus or "I did not know what would happen if I pushed the button" sometimes the station has cameras trained on the callbox and I see people push the button and run. We can talk back to the caller- the boxes are called " Talk Back Boxes" and some stay on the line and respond with unrepeatable language or a tirade against transit. I have worked stations with elevators and kids asre always pushing the telephone button in the elevator which sets off a phone receiver in the booth and they reply with "I did not know what it would do" or "I pushed it by mistake."
What difference does it make if this person doesn't know what the button does, or if this person comes to the booth not knowing how to get somewhere? What's the difference between someone who makes a tirade against transit in person or through the intercom? If it's through the intercom, at least you can end the call. It's not like booth clerks aren't talking to people anyway.
let's say you are in an unmanned station and suffer a heart attack or someone stabs you- can you with your pain find a pay phone to call for help. Often times the booth is located at track level and we can see the platform and call for help.
The booth isn't always on track level, there might also be other people to initiate the call or people looking in through cameras.
The Broadway GO consists of:
R: Via 63rd Street in both directions from 57 St-7 Av to 36 St Queens.
N: Northbound service operates normal between 86 St Brooklyn and Lexington Av-59 St. Trains terminate in the station and then change direction. N shuttle service available between Queensboro Plaza and Ditmars Blvd.
Thanks.
You do realize that the TA posts upcoming GO's, don't you?
Here's the one you're looking for.
Here is one CONRAIL locomotive that I took myself at Metuchen station:
I took it last summer using a Kodak 200 speed film.
1) Can anyone tell me what locomotive that is?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
: )
Looks like an Angelfire locomotive.
Goodness. What do I have to go through to get a picture onto this site?
Use a web host that allows "off-site" linking to images.
Just post a link. Click the link and then hit refresh.
Number, Please
yes. if you post the loco's number, someone should know what type it is from that alone.
guessing from location, if it was metuchen on the NE Corridor, mighta been a GP38...
I know the loco #, but I'm keeping it a secret until I can post it here.
C'mon Pete, why don't you tell everyone that it is a Conrail loco, in blue with white lettering.
It looks to be a GM diesel, either GP or SD and carries the #2910!
2910 sounds like a GE
The picture is a left front view, and due to the late afternoon sun, what you can see of the long hood is mostly in shadow.
I am not up to date on diesels after GP-35 & SD-45, but I would swear that it has a GM nose. Considering the length of the shadow, I'll bet it is an SD model too.
It's a gp38-2 (mabe gp40, but i'd bet 80% on 38-2). NS/CSX renumbered all the ex CR units. old GE units did have thatn number slot 10-15 years back, U33b's, if i recall right...
Any idea of the CSX locomotive behind it?
Probably a re-liveried conrail unit of the same heritage
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks like a GP40.
Looks like an Angelfire locomotive. What kind of horsepower do those things generate?
You know, through all of this, SelkirkTMO hasn't been attracted yet. Is he away?
Could that be Norfolk Southern #2910, ex Conrail GP38?
From the numbers I would say it is a Conrail SAA locomotive.
I've been wondering about this, but why is there the word "QUALITY" after CONRAIL?
Also, on a keen observation one cloudy weekday afternoon, I saw a locomotive of a similar type but on the right were lots of white letters that stated "CONRAIL QUALITY: 25 YEARS OF SERVICE" something like that.
I had my camera with me, but I couldn't take a picture because it was in my case and I just arrived at the station with my bike.
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Pete, it was part of a Conrail campaign to impress on both employees and shippers that Conrail believed in quality service. I'll not offer any opinions (since I really don't have any) as to the validity of the claim.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
they did other paint jobs, like them labor/management logos on B-40s, 'ballast express' C-32s...
If i recally, quality was a buzzword of sorts for awhile. CSX renamed some trains Q-987 (or whatever number0 -with teh Q standing for quality.
The customers of the SUCCESSORS of Gonerail have finally come to realize that Conrail wasn't so bad after all. Now that the same scuttling looms in the cab window of Amtrak, can't wait to see the amount of nostalgic waxing yet to come when CSXTrain service gums up on the NEC. :)
For the past 6 months I've been given reasons why I,O and the most notorious letter in the english, spanish and French alphabet, the letter P. I have compiled a list of why these letters should be used in the subways:
I-The I is often mistaken for one because of it's vertical line. Let me try to clear that up. I consists of 4 L's sharing the same vertical line. 1 L on the bottom is correct, 2 mirror image L's one upside down and 1 original upside down L. Those L's create a 90 degree angle. 1 has 2 L's. One correct and 1 mirror image. Those make a 90 degree angle but only 2 90 degree angles. I makes 4 90 degree angles. I is also the same way in a mirror image and upside down.
Long into short if you don't know the difference between a 1 and I then you should be sent back to Kindergarden.
O-Mistaken for as 0. O 0.the O has a shorter circle then 0. 0 is larger if you see closely. And the MTA will not use 0 any time soon.
P-This letter has been the ass of sick immature jokes(I bet I'll see 1 joke about this by the time Daria's movie come out is it college yet). You should know this joke "Take a P across the platform against the wall". I have never heard anyone say "take a Q across the platform against the wall" and we will never hear that unless people from Alabamba or Kentucky moves into the subway. And proper english dshould make it "Take a P TRAIN across the platform.
I hope I cleared everything up for you guys and gals.
P is what you smell doing undercar. CI Peter
I wouldn't use "I" since it can be confused with the numeral 1. I wouldn't use "O" since it can be confused with the numeral 0. I might not use "P" becuase it might be a little ofeensive to some people.
#3 West End Jeff
If you confuse I with 1 or 0 with O unless reading from a R32 or R38 head sign or you have extremely poor vision you shouldn't make that mistake for a grown man! And If I wasn't mistaken there isn't any 0 on any a division trains.
I remember when they were choosing the letters. The particular problem with "P" was that locals at the time were still double letters. Get it?
lol..............funnier than taking the P near the wall.............
Not so funny if your servicing the electric portion (coupling) downstairs and your nose stuffed with steel dust detects that someone took a wizz over the anticlimbers. Whew!~! CI Peter
Probably like what the vestibules smelled like on the old LIRR diesels. I don't know if that was from someone relieving themselves in the vestibules, or from it "baking" on something from under the train where someone went.
Remember that old railroad car bathrooms used to empty directly onto the tracks. This was why there were signs near the commode asking you not to flush while you were in a station.
You remeber that for real (this must have been around 1960)? I imagine the letter would have been chosen for the Culver, which had just been reduced to a shuttle around that time. But the local (which ran via tunnel) could have just been "PT", just like the Brighton was "QT". Do you know if this may have been the case.
Everybody remember, San Francisco uses the letter on one of its lines.
Yes. This is what I was told when I was hanging around the TA (from 1957, when I was 11). That was before letters on the BMT. Before BMT Standards wree scrapped. Before Don Harold worked there!!!!!!!
IOW, when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
The Brighton Local was QT rather than QQ because it was in the unique position of being sometimes tunnel, sometimes bridge and they wanted a way to distinguish between the two. They didn't follow the logic for RR. Of course there was TT. Do you think a West End Local via bridge coulda been TB, which might have raised its own questions?
Trying to squeeze the BMT into letters made a mess of the whole system. I'm not convinced they won't go back to some kind of double letter routes, someday...
What about RJ around 1968 for 4 th Ave Local to Jamaica?
And don't forget about the short lived "NX".
See my post "Sea Beach Question: Express Tracks" from today.
Do you think a West End Local via bridge coulda been TB
Another bad mix would have been the V with the D. The VD train. Try to get someone to ride that.
I figured the letters may have been planned before 1960. In 1957, the Culver still had the weekday expresses via bridge and locals via tunnel to Cahmbers, even though they were only going to Ditmas. Do you remember what they would have called this? I am assuming that was what P was for, and it became a shuttle by the time the R27 signs were printed. Since the Culver used the loop, it too was sometimes bridge and sometimes tunnel (going in one way, returning the other), so I figured they might do something similar to what they did with the Q. Plus, it would avoid "PP". You can still make a bathroom joke out of "P" by itself, but as I said, it is used elsewhere, and it's the double one that would be too obvious.
I remember when they were choosing the letters. The particular problem with "P" was that locals at the time were still double letters. Get it?
Now, if there were triple letters, "P" wouldn't be so bad. But "K" wouldn't work at all.
Now, if there were triple letters, "P" wouldn't be so bad. But "K" wouldn't work at all.
That's right, nobody wants to be reminded of the Krusty Komedy Klassic, which was broadcast live from the Apollo theater.
I know, but "P" is so funny to use for jokes. Especially in NYC. any other city would be ok, but never in New York.
I'm sure the reason for that was fear of Howard Stern harping on it for two years. :)
Howard Stern would probably do a live remote broadcast from the "P-line."
K, T, U, X, and Y are still available letters for future routes (e.g., 2nd Ave.). The P may have been reserved for some special services, such as a nonstop express from Sutphin/Archer to mid-Manhattan via the J, Chrystie St connector, and Houston St. that would run a few trips in the event of an Amtrak strike causing Long Island RR to lose access to Penn Sta.
K, T, U, X, and Y are still available letters for future routes (e.g., 2nd Ave.).
And H alos. The Rockaway shuttle is just as dead as the K train, so I guess it could be used again. Actually the K was resurrected once already for 8th Avenue in the late 80's. Has any other line been ressurected to a NEW route after being "dead" for a while?
The H fits this category. It was the HH Court St. Shuttle till 1946, then resurrected in 1956 as the HH Rockaway Shuttle from Euclid Ave. to Rock Park/Far Rock.
Did they ever use a single "H"?
#3 West End Jeff
Rockaway Park Shuttle.
You're correct in that statement. Now that you mentioned it, one of my old subway maps shows that the Rockaway Park Shuttle was the "H" train.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the H ran to Roackaway Park in the mid to late 80's. It was discontinued when the C was extrended during the day to Roackaway Park. The few times I was on the H it was always R10's usually in the green paint scheme.
Roackaway? I have no idea how I did the same typo twice. Sorry, ROCKAWAY Park.......
If I'm not mistaken the "H" was often referred to as the Rockaway Round Robin. There is a portion of track at Hammel's Wye that it used which isn't presently being used in revenue service. If you were going from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park when they had "H" service it was possible to travel between these two points without having to go to Broad Channel though you could do it in only one direction. Now you must go to Broad Channel when you travel between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park becuase there is no more "H" service.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember the service you are referring to, but the H also just ran between Rockaway Park and Broad Channel, or maybe Euclid for a while,
It was an interesting service when it existed.
#3 West End Jeff
It was both. H was the Rockaway Park Shuttle (in its various forms) and still is for the purpose of the picks.
The H continued to run weekends (Euclid to Rock Park) and nights (Euclid or Broad Channel to Rock Park to Far Rock, round-robin) until Rockaways service was reorganized to its current arrangement in (IIRC) 1994.
That's true! I forgot about the HH Court st shuttle. The H could have it's 3rd incarnation.
H is still used for the picks for the Rockaway Park Shuttle.
Has any other line been ressurected to a NEW route after being "dead" for a while?
Well, the old West End Express line, via Broadway to Ditmars Blvd, which ran from 1961-67 over exactly the same route (and earlier before it was extended to Astoria) as the "T" train was recently resurected as the "W" train. I guess that "T" was too good for them in the 21st Century.
-- Ed Sachs
"I guess that "T" was too good for them in the 21st Century."
I've heard that the letter "T" has already been designated for the second avenue subway. Can anyone confirm this? I was thinking of this line as I walked through 86th and 2nd avenue last night, since 2nd avenue will be a semi-express, parallelling the Lexington Avenue express stops only. -Nick
Gee, about 20 years ago, "V" had been designated for the 2nd Ave. line. How times change ...
-- Ed Sachs
The QB evolved back to the Q, which it was to begin with in the pre 11/67 days.
Yea, but if they ever routed the P train via Sixth Ave., somebody waiting on the Eighth Ave. platform at West Fourth Street could be told "Take a P downstairs..."
I laways figured you could use one of those letters if they ever decided to give a letter or letters to SIR. Suppose, for instance, that they restored North Shore service. The current (east shore?) line would be (for arguments sake) the I and the north shore line would be the O.
:-) Andrew
And for the past 6 months I've read and agreed with why I,O and the most notorious letter in the english, spanish and French
alphabet, the letter P should not be used in the subways:
I-The I is often mistaken for one because of it's vertical line. Let me try to clear that up. I consists of 4 L's sharing the same
vertical line. 1 L on the bottom is correct, 2 mirror image L's one upside down and 1 original upside down L. Those L's create a
90 degree angle. 1 has 2 L's. One correct and 1 mirror image. Those make a 90 degree angle but only 2 90 degree angles. I
makes 4 90 degree angles. I is also the same way in a mirror image and upside down.
Long into short if you don't know the difference between a 1 and I then you should be sent back to Kindergarden.
You try reading those signs at 30 MPH. You can barely figure out the difference between C and E on the R32 bulkhead signs when they are stopped even. It would be too confusing for tourists.
O-Mistaken for as 0. O 0.the O has a shorter circle then 0. 0 is larger if you see closely. And the MTA will not use 0 any time
soon.
Read the reason for I.
P-This letter has been the ass of sick immature jokes(I bet I'll see 1 joke about this by the time Daria's movie come out is it
college yet). You should know this joke "Take a P across the platform against the wall". I have never heard anyone say "take a
Q across the platform against the wall" and we will never hear that unless people from Alabamba or Kentucky moves into the
subway. And proper english dshould make it "Take a P TRAIN across the platform.
It is natural instinct to say those things and whoever has to take that train will complain. Alot. It isn't worth it.
See why we can't use those letters?
whoever has to take that train will complain
Not if it takes you quickly to where you want to go.
People like to complain. I am someone will be offended and we will never hear the end of it from Gene and the Straphangers.
People like to complain. I am someone will be offended and we will never hear the end of it from Gene and the Straphangers.
Can't you tell people to naff off anyway and if they're that persistent lock them in a Redbird on the Queensboro Bridge or something!
First of all, Redbirds aren't bad, secondly, you just created more problems for yourself.
Okay a BMT Wooden Elevated Car.
How about having a letter (LAMBDA) line for the gays in the Village?
Nah, it'd cheese off the Turks. :)
I guess the Ë line would be in a pink triangle.
Otherwise the Lambda will appear like an E. The rest will still be in Latin.
Actually there was a "P Train" on paper at one time. In the event of a Amtrak Strike which would have prevented the LIRR from using Penn Station an alternate route was a special train from Stuphin-Archer stopping at 121st Street and then to 34th St/8th Ave via the J/Z Line to Manhattan and via the old Chrystie Street connection to the F Line to West 4th Street and then via 8th Ave Line to 34th Street/Penn Station. The plan was never put in to effect however.
I believe and I repeat I am not sure but the JFK Express which operated between 1978 and 1990 was designated as the I Train by the TA.
Thank You
O-Mistaken for as 0. O 0.the O has a shorter circle then 0. 0 is larger if you see closely. And the MTA will not use 0 any time
soon.
Even more than the mix up betwee 0 and O is that the O will also be confused with the Q
I suppose you could get away with an O train if it were a different colour and went nowhere near the Q.
No, you couldn't. Never underestimate the travel ability of a maliterate dumbass.
How can you confuse the O for the 0, when there is no 0 in existance anyway? It's a moot point; creating a 0 or O train shouldn't be a problem.
Also, you forgot to list one. There are any number of subtle reasons why the 'U' doesn't exist.
'Transfer here for the F and U trains'
Just to name one of the possibilities.
And if the K were brought back, there might be a staion where the K,C,U,F trains would all be identified on the same sign.
"And if the K were brought back, there might be a staion where the K,C,U,F trains would all be identified on the same sign."
LOL!! And you know either the person posting the stickers, or some other person will switch the letters around to have a sense of humor and post it in a certain way :-) -Nick
How about W8th St: F, Q. That sounds even worse!
Or the F and G.
The Felix Unger train!! HMAHHH!!! FMAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
We do have a 0 bus route in Denver. It runs along Broadway, which is the east-west dividing point in Denver's grid system. All of our bus routes are numbered acording to the grid system as much as possible.
1 and I will be on 2 different divisions. O will be the only one used because zero isn't on any existing rollsign. Unless you can't hold in the urge to burst out in laughter when a P train rolls into the station then I don't see a bad reason not to use those letters.
1.The 1 and I are 2 different division symbols. So unless there is some weird construction where the 1 can acomidate R32 or R38's that mistake won't be made.
2.0 will not be used since there are 94 other numbers to be used. And the O is also on a different division route.
3.The P is funny to a certain extent where even the most sensitive person won't be offended so unless you have some type of trauma from either urinating or the letter P(lmao) you shouldn't have problems more then a giggle or laughing like I am right now.
Ya know? You may have inadvertently solved the problem! In your formatting, referring to the zero train, you put it right behind a 2 and a dot, resulting in "2.0" ... this has possibilities since we're all rapidly getting conditioned to Billyware and AOL with such things as
Lex 2.0
and versioning numbers. Why not have a 7.55 train which is different from the 7.40 train? Or would we completely confuse the public with such things as an N-46.3 train? (Yeah, OK, some old lady in the 6th car is likely to blurt out "BINGO!" but besides that) ...
What's good for da busses might be good for da trains ...
Thank you for copying my words Al.
Well Paul with a P, before this turns into a family feud you said crap about 4 L's and 90 degree angles. I said crap about different divisions. I'm suprised anyone understood what you were saying.
Skipping I, O, 0, and such actually isnt' a new idea.
Jukeboxes from the pre electronic selector era skipped I on their keyboards, and I believe O, also.
It's easy to confuse these letters. I'm guessing also O being confused with Q is a possibility.
You'll note that the T/A hasn't used 8, yet. I'm guessing for the same reasons (it looks like B, kin