What are the different positions of the subway controllers and brakes? I know that there are a lot of train operators on this board who would know, but there is nothing regarding this on the website.
- Lyle Goldman
Brakes vary as its not a certain position. The controller has three positions, I'll describe it as a clock. The idle position is :15, the 1st position is :20, 2nd position is :25 and 3rd is :30 with it pointing to your gut. Brakes vary from no brake at :45, to full service which is around :30 or :25. Hope this helps.
To be more precise about what the positions are, the first point of power is "switching", and makes you accelerate very slowly, usually under 10mph, depending on the grade. You use this for pulling up closely to another train, adding, cutting, end of track, etc. You cannot operate too long in this mode, because it will overheat th resistors. In the new AC powered trains, it won't overheat the resistors, and I hear it will slowly accelerate up to full speed.
The 2nd point, series, I use to get to around 10-15 mph, as when going over a switch or other area of restricted speed, or passing a yellow signal in approach to a red. It will go past that, especially with a grade, but gives you more time to hold power before you have to begin coasting, and or braking.
The 3rd point is "parallel" or "multiple" (named after theelectic circuits it uses), and accelerates the fastest. You'll be up to 20 in a few seconds on level ground. Throwing the controller straight into multiple is called "wrappng it around", because of the circular motion you make. But the new trains use stick shift type controllers, (back and forth) so this term will not apply, and neither will the clock position analogy.
Brakes on SMEE equipment begins with "snow brake" (its a button on new style control panels), which applies a very weak brake just to keep snow off the wheel. Then, there's minimum brake, which is about 10-15 pounds of pressure. Then it just goes up (no distinct
"positions") until Full service, which is 70 pounds for most equipment. After that is emergency ("CHOW!"), but this is only used for an emergency sudden stop (someone on track, etc), and otherwise is only used for "agreeing with" brakes in emergency for all other reasons (release controller at terminal to test dead man feature, or accidentally; cord pulled, tripped by something on road, brake pipe rupture, etc)
Then there's "handle off", which allows you to remove your handle on SMEE's, and shuts down the controller on R-44/46.
>>>>>>>>Then it just goes up (no distinct "positions") until Full service, which is 70 pounds for most equipment
You mean 80 pounds.
110 on R44s?
Yup.
It varies. Fully charged is suppod to be 70, but in practice it often goes up to 80 or more. On the R-42 I had last night, the notch for full service was right after 70. I was one of those tight controllers, in which it was hrd to take a full service.
I also forgot full release and running release. I'm not sure what the difference really is, but we were told not to operate in full release, and that it is used in the shop, when the brakes are cut out anyway. I do know that when you release to full release, the pressure drops much faster. I do this when I'm in full service, and the doors close, to savetime, then I put it back into running release. On most controllers, it s a distinct hard notch right before full release.
Whats the difference between full release and running release?
"Fully" charged SMEE equipment is 80 lbs, but you can obviously operate with only 70 lbs max straight air. Anything 58 lbs and up should prevent the pilot valve from setting off when the controller is released. Not saying that you should operate a train with 58 lbs, but I'm saying that it can be done.
As far as manipulating the brake valve to full release then back to running release, the CTO put out a bulletin about 3 years ago advocating this. You'll also find some equipment with a plate/sticker just below the brake valve on the operating console telling you to go to full release first then immediately back to running release. This is to prevent operating with an unnecessary snow brake applied.
There really should be a section on train control on this website.
- Lyle Goldman
For now, there's pretty decent details on some of the older cars available for examination at the "JoeKerner" ...
Propulsion overview: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/carpow.htm
Braking overview: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/brakes.htm
And just for added amusement:
Lighting control: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/lights.htm
So there are four positions on the controller: idle, switching, series, and parallel? What happens when the controller is at idle (or any other slow position) while the train is moving with no brakes applied? Also, what is the amount of brake normally applied when stopping a train?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>>>>>What happens when the controller is at idle (or any other slow position) while the train is moving with no brakes applied?
The train coasts. It acts the same as it would in your auto.
>>>>>>>Also, what is the amount of brake normally applied when stopping a train?
Depends on how early/late in the station you begin your braking sequence, if the station is on a down/upgrade, etc.
On a level station and beginning the brake sequence at the mid-way point (C/R's board) of the station at 30 mph, no more than 30 lbs. would be needed.
Good terminology. You've got the controller part right, and you're very close with the brake valve.
Full service on the brake valve would be about :33 and emergency would be about :27. Handle off would be :20.
I owe it all to the training facility tour I took! It refreshed my memory! :-)
I am a newbie to this board, and only an amateur subway buff...but, I thought I would throw out some questions/gripes/nice things (probably too many) that have puzzled me as I have communted over the years (sorry if they've been beaten into the ground before):
- F service to Brooklyn is a pain as is, so why stop the new V at 2nd? It is standing room only too often all the way out to Park Slope at least. Is there any infrastructure reason why this V can't terminate at 7th Ave Brooklyn or further down? I am also a frequent G rider (it is my closest line -Clinton/Washington- couldn't it go a few stops further to end, at least to make the 4th ave transfer?
- Why doesn't the C train just become the train out to Lefferts instead of having a single A train have 3 possible Queens terminals? If you are in a hurry to get to JFK, having the first A go by to Lefferts is a drag. (and why is the C a car short?)
- Not to bitch, but the downtown 6 service has been really spotty lately (even before 9-11). Lots of bunched up trains, causing at least one (often multiple) run-bys at Astor (near my job). Watching as 2 or 3 speed past after you have already been waiting for a seeming eternity is infuriating.
- Is there any hope of keeping the Q train local in Manhattan? I often will go from 8th ave to Dekalb, and this new arrangement is great (otherwise, I switch to the 6 at Canal). I realize this is seflfish (and the locals seems to have tought time getting back onto the Manhattan Bridge track from the local after Prince in evening rush without getting stacked up), but just based on look around each morning that the Q hits 8th, I am not the only one benefitting. Having the W bypass Dekalb means it does me no good (why not have the Q express do that, in the true meaning of the word express?)
-Is there ever going to be an uptown transfer from the 6th ave line to the uptown 6 at Bleecker? At Jat/Borough hall, the F traffic seems to jump to the A to switch so they can get on the Lex line at Fulton. Am I nuts to think that this is die in part ot the lack of an uptown transfer at Bleecker? is it possible to run the 6 down to Bowling Green instead of the 5 so that the annoying 6-4/5-A/C transfer could be eliminated? the 6 traffic at B Bridge almost always seems to be waiting to catch the 4/5 to make that one extra stop (and frankly, I think all the 5's should go to Brooklyn...they hit Bowling Green empty, and the 4's are packed to the gills)
- Instead of bringing back the Z exactly as it was, is the interchange between the L and JMZ at E New York functional that would allow the Z to start in Canarsie, jump to the J/M line, and run express from there? (Maybe even hit the connection to the 6th ave line? Is that track still in place)
-the new Q service out of Dekalb should give a great view of the old artwork on the abandoned Myrtle Ave inbound platform, but I can't see it well. Is it still there in good shape?
- Last thing. There is a great view of the old Nassau Loop track ramp up to the Manhattan Bridge to be had out the back of brooklyn bound Q express. As the Canal track shifts over the old loop ROW, you get a great look down the tunnel (the outbound tunnel is still lit as a part of the entire outbound lighting). If I knew how to take pictures well, I'd send it along.
The reason most of the routes cited don't go to the places cited is there aren't enough cars available to run service that far. In addition, there's limited need for much of what was proposed (standees are to be expected during rush hour on the subway -- only on commuter rail and express buses is that considered something the operating agency is to avoid). As for the "B/J" tracks between the Williamsburg Bridge and the Sixth Avenue Line, they're available, but once again, it's been decided that there's limited need for such a routing. Should a need be identified, and should cars be available to run it, it can run.
The artwork on the abandoned Myrtle Avenue platform (Masstransiscope), last I saw of it (got to be at least ten years now), had been vandalized heavily. During the time it was lit, attempts were made to keep it clean, but by the end it was just overrun with graffiti.
Construction of a transfer facility between the Broadway-Lafayette and (uptown) Bleecker Street stations is in the 2004 capital budget.
David
standees are to be expected during rush hour on the subway
Is there an NYCT "standard" for the number of standees? Is such a "standard" based on the amount of floor space available. How does this standard compare to NYCT's published "service" load and "crush" load standards?
Yes, there are guidelines as to loading (seated + standing). I did not derive them, nor do I know how they were derived (nor do I have them handy), but I know they are somewhat less than "crush" loading. To the best of my recollection, they are equal or at least close to the "service" loading Mr. Bauman cited.
Is the purpose of this question to refute my contention that standees are to be expected on the subway during rush hours? Does Mr. Bauman, or anyone else for that matter, know of a subway system anywhere in the world that does not schedule for standees during rush hours?
David
Yes, there are guidelines as to loading (seated + standing). I did not derive them, nor do I know how they were derived (nor do I
have them handy), but I know they are somewhat less than "crush" loading. To the best of my recollection, they are equal or at
least close to the "service" loading Mr. Bauman cited.
I can help you with the derivation for the TA's definitions of service and crush loads. The service level is determined by dividing the area within a car dedicated to passengers by 4 sq ft. The crush load is determined by taking the floor space dedicated to standees and dividing by 3 sq ft and adding the number of seated passengers.
Is the purpose of this question to refute my contention that standees are to be expected on the subway during rush hours?
Not at all. I just wanted to know, if the TA had any internal threshold for measuring adequacy of service with regard to crowding.
Story in today's Times.
Has anyone purchased the Microsoft Train Simulator program? Is it any good? How much memory does it eat up?
Thanks.
Hi,
The MS Train sim is pretty good. I like driving the Toyko subways because the trains go super fast and there are a lot of stops.
However my work has picked up and I have not had any time to play lately. If you are interested I can sell you my copy for $15 plus $4 shipping.
Let me know if you are interested.
Thanks,
Allen
Hey, I'll take you up on that.
I have Train Sim. Its great. I really enjoy the Northeast corridor stuff. Overall, it has worked good. I sometimes get that "Blue Screen Thing", but I think this is my computer. I don't know if there is a "Version 2" yet with more, or better trains. Its still great the way it is.
I just purchased the software and have run the NEC tutorial run. Lots of fun!
To be honest this program uses more hard drive space than memory on any computer. Trust me you'll love it, especially if you love trains.
When I logged onto Subtalk this morning, guess what greeted me on the front end? Why an N Sea Beach R-68 as bright and shiny as all outdoors. For a Monday after a nice weekend, there is always that feeling of "oh, crap, back to the old grind." Seeing my Sea Beach demonstrated before my eyes was sight to behold. Ok Bob, J, and Q, have at it and show me your envy. The Sea Beach online today, not those other lines.
Gee, where do we start !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Fred, I still think that this is a much better picture ;-)
A nice picture, too. Could it be Ditmas Ave? Let me know. At least you have a pulse. I got no other reactions except from Selkirk, who asked me where he could start in going after me. I'm sure he will think of something.
Next stop on the Sea Beach is New Utrecht Avenue.
Yeah, that is Ditmas Av! How'd you figure it out? (I did by looking at the dwarf signal in the picture)
Here's a picture that you should REALLY like:
!?!? I can't seem to embed any more photos like that nice triplex! How did you do it?
there are a bunch more here
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-d/
I meant I couldnt copy or embed any photos anymore in my posts since I rebuilt my H/D, and I was wondering how J-trainloco did it.
I just used the "img src=" HTML tag.
J: I will never have to look up that picture again. I have book-marked it. Thanks again pal.
I know Fred has seen that photo. He's probably wearing a silly grin right about now!
Here's my vote:
I like this better
>
Well, you got it right with the "A" train, but it should look more like this:
What station is that in, and when was that picture taken? I looked for it on the website, but all it says is that Trevor Logan took the picture. Maybe Trevor can identify it for us.
- Lyle Goldman
I took that photo at what is now the ex-Chambers Street-WTC Station back in like 1994. That was one of my very first subway photos.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Everybody has their own preference. I remember the R-10s on the A very well and still associate them with that line. I look at the R-44s now the way I used to look at the BMT standards when they were still around.
I would call it a beaming grin although when my Sea Beach is mentioned I can get a little silly and juvenile. Such conduct for a soon-to-be- 61 year old guy. I like your photo too, and will bookmark it in deference to you. What stop is that? Could it be Boyd?
Rockaway Blvd. That photo is the backgound on my computer screen. It's a microcosm of the IND - the two car classes I love the most, and the R-10s wearing my all-time favorite paint scheme.
Enjoy looking at them. I love looking at that Black and White Triplex #4 Sea Beach taken on 8th Street in I still don;t know when.
However, I use the R-11 as my desktop because, as I mentioned earlier, it was taken on January 24, 1970, my wife's birthday, and the year we were married. It has more sentimental value to this incurable romantic.
Plus the front route sign on that R-11 says - you guessed it - 4/Sea Beach.
That, too, Stevereno
Don't mention it.:-)
J: You've made a pal for life with that picture. It is a Triplex Sea Beach at 8th Avenue when it was the #4 train. And BTW I have been trying without success to find out when that picture was taken. I even wrote to Joe Testagrose, ace subway photographer, and he was at a loss to tell when it was snapped. It had to be no earlier in 1957 when the terminal was changed from 42nd Street to 57th Street, and no later than 1962 when the Triplex was taken off the Sea Beach Line. However, to zero in on a date I have no clue. Yet, believe it or not, I really want to know. One more thing. I have used this picture before as my desktop, but currently use an R-11, taken January 24th, 1970, my wife's birthday and the year we were married. And yes, for some strange reason that train has a #4 instead of the letter "N".
Fred must be crying a #4Triplex on the Sea Beach
Let me clue you in. J Trainloco send me a picture of his F, Steve sent me a picture of his A, and J also sent me a picture of a Triplex #4 Sea Beach from around 1957. You see, I have a lot of buddies now.
>>And yes, for some strange reason that train has a #4 instead of the letter "N".<<
R-11's are strange cars. They were built when the IND and BMT were seperate entities. Further, it was loaned to the BMT and put on the #1 Brighton Express. However, Even after the unification, I've never seen anything but numbers on the rollsigns, even though the cars are IND cars. After they became R-34's, (and after the "B" was the West End train) I still have pictures of that train displaying BMT numbers.
Hence, it would have been strange if it had displayed N instead of 4.
I find it particularly strange that the destination slot on that R-11 is blank. The R-11s had "57th St. Manhattan via Bridge" on their bulkhead curtains.
I remember for years in the mid 50s the R-11 sitting on the spare track just south of Prospect Park with the #7-Franklin on it. It seemed just to sit there(3 cars only) and the shuttle used 3 Car AB Units
IND cars loaned to the BMT's Brighton Express. OK, but how did they got onto the Sea Beach. Were they loaned out to them, too? I also wonder for how long this went on because the Sea Beach was supposed to stop using the #4 sign and go with the letter "N" as early as 1963.
Simple.
The BMT was only testing the cars for a short period of time. Afterward they were to be returned to the IND.
However, the Merger occured between the 3 entities. After that, it was as if the cars became allergic to IND rails. One was reworked to run with the R-16 fleet (because an R-16 was destroyed). The other 9 saw sporadic service, mostly on the Franklin shuttle.
But strangely, they never had their signs changed. When in shuttle service, the displayed a "7 Franklin" sign. I've never seen any pictures of them on service on the B or D lines, even when they were extended into Brooklyn. Most likely they ran on the N or Q lines when they were in service, as they never had their old signs replaced (Even as R-34's. Go figure)
The R-11s saw service on the B line briefly in the fall of 1968. There are photos of those cars on the West End sporting "3-West End" signs.
IIRC when they were rebuilt under the R-34 contract, the R-11s could and did m. u. with all other SMEE cars. Typically they would couple one R-11 with a pair of R-32s for Franklin Ave. shuttle service.
One story I heard was that they tried not to run the R-11s in solid trains because their brakes were suspect.
>>The R-11s saw service on the B line briefly in the fall of 1968. There are photos of those cars on the West End sporting "3-West End" signs.<<
I have pictures of such trains, but James Clifford Greller says that the trains were running on the West End when it was re-routed up Broadway; and the north destination sign says: 57th/7th av. Hence, it really was a #3 train, and not a "B" train.
It's all coming up roses - er, Sea Beach.
In today's New York Times, an article entitled Rough Rider on the Redbird Express profiles a president of a trading company who has to commute with the #7 train instead of his car. The person states:
Mr. Levitt is a little different. He grew up on the subway. His father was a subway token clerk. As a kid, he sometimes sat on his father's lap in the booth, pushing dimes through the slot, and he remembers the thrill of the Sea Beach express to Coney Island. "I used to know all the lines," he said, smiling proudly.
So there you go, Fred ... get a hold of this guy, buy a few thousand shares of Amtrak and compare Sea Beach notes :)
--Mark
This article crystallizes better than most the exact gap between
the well heeled who choose to drive and the rest of us. These are of
course the "class" which the carpeted cars of DC Metro and BART were
designed to lure. While I am pleased he notes the improvement in the
graffiti wars, I doubt he will stay on mass transit when car usage is
less restricted. I certainly symphathize with the desire to sit, but
the distaste for the subway home from Yankee Stadium is a circular
problem. As long as the moneyed classes opt out they will also opt out
of the financing of public transit forever condemning it to exactly the
grunge they abhor.
I was at Coney island yard today a went looking for them, They were no ware in the yard. Dose any one know if they were transfered back to ENY for final prep for the L line.
Robert
The 143's are being used for schooling T/O's and C/R's and are travelling all over now. Friday, they were on the J/M lines.
That makes sence.
Robert
When will the next set of MU's be delivered?
When the first one passes the 30 test run. After that it should be about a mouth or so after that.
Robert
Haven't they been on the road more than 30 days? Or is that in actual service 30 days?
Acceptance testing consists of several parts (the R-142 and R-142A tests had 72 parts), the last of which requires the pilot train to remain in passenger service for 30 consecutive days (16 or so hours a day, with the rest of the time devoted to collecting and analyzing data collected while the train is in service). The testing, prior to the in-service test, takes approximately five months. As for the 30-day test, the train passes...when it passes.
There are criteria for determining whether the 30-day clock has to be reset. I don't have them available, but perhaps others on this board do and can enlighten us.
The pilot train of R-143 cars has not yet entered passenger service, but since it's been here for 5 months or so, expect it to happen fairly soon.
David
Well, I understand the criteria to reset the 'clock' on the cars is pretty stiff; reportedly a malfunctioning sign was supposed to do it on the R-142 tests.
Thank you for the information. I believe it has been at least 5 months as of now, possibly longer.
April 30th was the first delivery if I remember correctly. So...
September 20th?
Correct, over 5 months now.
They passed me on the WillyB going toward Marcy Ave. around 2 PM on Friday 9/28/01.
Do you know if the windows are supposed to be Scratchitti proof on these trains?
No windows are scratchiti "proof." The windows have a sacrificial layer of clear plastic that can be relatively easily (and inexpensively, compared to a new window) removed and replaced.
David
I spotted a four car set of R143s in test service on the Far Rockaway line Tuesday evening (10/2). It made two round trips between 10:45pm and 11:30pm. The car numbers were 8105 thru 8108.
Keith -- is that you?
Are you back or just 'lurking'?
BMTman
Yea, I'm back for awhile this time.
What do you meen "TEST SERVICE", were they carring people on the Rock park Shuttle.
Robert
No, it was not in revenue service and also I spotted them on the Far Rockaway branch, not the Rockaway Park branch. The R143s made two test runs on the Far Rockaway on Wednesday night as well. Approximately the same times as Tuesday night.
Curious as to the whereabouts of R62a car no. 2449..
Two trains had to be pulled out of the water at Chambers and Franklin streets after the attack and are being "dried out" in 207 yard. so 2449 my be one of them.
Would the two of you be so kind as to send me an e-mail with your current e-mail addresses? I wish to send you something.
E-mail me at Q44VP@aol.com
Thanks.
Anybody know the readings on the above sign sets? (As for the R68, the old version. I already know the most recent version.)
Pssst... favor needed, check board on your site. Hit me back... thanks. The R68 and R68As had different rolls. I can remember whatever was once used in service or just set really weird... R68 roll is easier... full stop name over borough. R68A was super abridged/condensed.
The R-68/68A destination signs are now unified:
Ex: Midtown
57 St/ 7 Av
Coney Island
The R-62/62A signs have a little bit of a different variation, but the R-62A and the R-68's old signs were the same.
Ex: 57 St 7 Av
Manhattan
Coney Island
Brooklyn
I like the old signs better, now if they put the same signs in the R-68A units keeping the old signs intact in the R-68's, that would have saved the TA lots of money.
I'm not looking for the new version of the R68 rollsigns. I'm looking for the older version, like the one on the signs in the picture below.
It's a 200K kmage. Please be patient.
I forgot about it, but I realized that you might still find the old roll signs on the Franklin Av. Shuttle R-68's. I know when I was in Brooklyn a couple of weeks ago while riding the (Q) that those cars (#2916-2924) still have them. They are still on the R-62A's and R-62's.
I saw the (3) trains running today. Looks like 14th Street is not on the ST signs. I even saw one car that had an upside-down (13) sign on it!
The new signs make no sense. Why they put neighborhood and/or boro on top of the station completely mystifies me. I guess the folks who designed those signs drive Taurus Fords instead of Ford Tauruses.
> keeping the old signs intact in the R-68's, that would have saved the TA lots of money.
I think they had to change the signs because the old ones didn't have 34th Street on them.
- Lyle Goldman
When the Manhattan Bridge was closed to all trains back in 1995, the D ended at 34th St./6th Av. then, so didn't the old signs have 34th St. on it, or was the bottom sign left blank?
They displayed "South Terminal" during 1995.
When the Manhattan Bridge closed back in 1995, there were no R68As. As for the R68s, there was only 1 test train in service at that time. As a result of the bridge closing, they continued to operate this train on the southern division "D" only. When the rest of the R68 order arrived, they NEVER served the Concourse "D" until the day before the opening of the Manhattan Bridge in December, 1988. Therefore they did not have 34th Street on the southern rollsign.
The R68As didn't come on the scene until the Fall of 1988 and went straight to the Concourse "D". They had "34 Street/6 Avenue" for the southern terminal rollsign.
Maybe this questioned has been answered before, but if it has, please bear with me. Does anyone know why the TA removed all the end signs on the R68\R68As on the cars not used for either conductor or motorman operation?
Nah, all R68 and R68As were delivered by 1995.
I guess Far Rockaway A Train meant 1985.
My mistake. I meant 1985 NOT 1995.
Ok, this is a big idea. If we switch the 2 and 5 terminals we can gain alot. Like this
5- 241 Street to Bowling Green/ Flatbush Avenue (Bronx Thru Express to Manhattan 6 a.m. to 12 p.m. / Bronx Thru Express to 241 Street 12:01 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.)
2- Dyre Avenue to Flatbush Avenue (Local In the Bronx)
This allows for the 180 Street Connection to remain clear allowing for faster times b/t the interlocking. People who live at 241 Stret get the South Bronx Express Service constantly.
Night Service
2- Same As Above, except local in all boroughs
5- 180 Street to 241 Street
This also allows for less congestion at 180 Street by having the shuttle not interfere with 2 service at 180 Street. 6 Opto or 6 10-car trains can run on the shuttle.
So what do people think? I think this brings alot of advantages.
Yes! I like you plan. At first I thought maybe make the 2 the Bronx Thru Express and run all 5 service local in the Bronx. But this is better, because you don't have the shuttle interfering with the 2. For the longest time, the 5 got turned into a shuttle for a whole host of GO's. And all too often, either the 2 or 5 gets held at the junction causing delays.
> maybe make the 2 the Bronx Thru Express and run all 5 service local in the Bronx.
Weren't they recently planning on doing just that? What ever happened with that?
- Lyle Goldman
It was postponed (permanently?) after the politicians in the areas the Dyre Avenue Line serves complained about it.
David
It was postponed (permanently?) after the politicians in the areas the Dyre Avenue Line serves complained about it.
That was not the TA's proposal. The terminals would have remained the same. The #2's from E 241st would have joined the #5's from E 238th as expresses. The #5's from Dyre would have become the only locals.
Mr. Bauman is correct. I misread the poster's proposal.
David
Actually, that is the proposal to which I was referring. It was R142#2's idea, to run the #2 train express and the #5 train local.
- Lyle Goldman
Nice idea but 180th Street Yard (new R142 receiver) is undergoing renovation again with personell transfer and Redbirds are being both cut and receiving service maintainance.
i thought they have some #2s running express in the bronx.i was at 238 st once and skipped to gunhill to 180st.not on the weekend during rush hour
and anyway they should run the the 2 express from 241 to 180st. then run local from 180 to 149st 3rd ave
r142man
2 all the way
until next time
Tha doesn't save any time, and confuses passangers. Express service north of E180th St. makes no sense with 50% of all service south of E180th going to Dyre.
This isn't a radical idea. I've proposed it ever since I first discovered Subtalk, for the same reasons you state. In fact, prior to 1962 the service existed in that way. I don't know why it was changed.
the pan shot i took at main street flushing.1999 35mm pan..........thanks webmaster dave pirmann!!
that's strange I have a LRV with the World Trade Center behind it.
The front page has a script that changes the image every time you load www.nycsubway.org. That's why one person may see one thing, and other people see other things.
The one Salaam Allah was referring to is this one
while the LRV & WTC banner is this one.
how do U do that?? load those 2 pics inside the message box & can that be done with a I Mac ??? ........lol !!1
It's an HTML tag I use called img. It can be used with any computer.
that is so true !!
the pic rotates i saw it about 15 min. ago ...
The picture changes. I have a diesel pulling the "Triplex" on the fan trip.
I wonder how many different pictures Dave has loaded into that option.
Currently there are 67 photos in the random pool. Each time someone pulls up the page (and it's not cached) there's a different random picture.
Thank you, I had no idea that there were that many available.
That's one of my favorite banner pictures. Thank you Salaam- great picture-taking!
This is one of my favorites
Well, so much for 'keeping the peace'...
I also like this one
I was in NYC for about 24 hours this weekend, but not at Shoreline. My purpose of traveling was to see Cal Ripken's final game ever but turned out to be his final road game and final game at Yankee Stadium. I am not sure if they need to replay the game if I can come, but thats another matter.
To start, I got on Acela Express 2208 at BWI on Saturday afternoon. This was the 2027-2033 Trainset (#13). I made my way to the Quiet Car at the front. Last time I had 2208, I got the same conductor on 2153 on my return to DC. He still had 2208 on Saturday and while he keyed open the door where I was waiting at BWI, he only recognized me when he came to collect my ticket. Once he closed up at Baltimore, he came to me and took me to the lead power car, 2027. He introduced me to the engineer, and I sat down at the fireman's controls. This allowed me to chat with the engineer while we cruised along from Baltimore to Wilmington. I was able to watch the signals, speedometer, and other displays, and see the railfan view of the Northeast Corridor. Its just like MS Train Simulator except with far more detail. I was able to see the yard at Perryville that I didn't even know existed, the (poorly marked) Newark and Churchman's Crossing Stations, and many other things. The view from the front is very different from that on the side. We passed one train being pulled by a Genesis Locomotive and I couldn't figure out which train this was from my schedule. This was near Aberdeen, I think. If anyone knows, please respond (Remember to refer to the July schedule!).
At Wilmington, I had to return to Business Class and become a passenger again. The rest of the trip was uneventful. This was the first time I've been on Amtrak after dark (for part of the trip) and I prefer traveling by day. This also meant I couldn't see anything of Lower Manhattan. Is Metropark Station in a curve? The train was tilted when we were there. We arrived at New York-Penn at about 7:55, about 24 hours before I would descend to the platform for the return trip.
I went to the subway and took the E train (R46 5858, last car) to Lexington (I saw 5800 on this trip, 4th car). While waiting for this, I saw one R32 C train. At 51st, I missed an R142A 6 train. Almost directly behind it was a desiel and a few flatbeds. The next train was led by R142A 7275. It was while this train was entering and I was considering setting up for a picture when someone told me that what I was doing was illegal and alerted an NYPD officer of my actions. The NYPD told the man I was not breaking the law. The man tried to voice his opinions again on the train and said my taking photos could help the terrorist movement. I am quite happy NYPD was present.
The next morning, I took R62 1371 to Yankee Stadium. The ride was uneventful but the express from 86th to 125th is quite slow in my opinion. Also, why are there timers on the upgrades along that track? I understand it on Hammel's Wye but not there. Once at 161st, the crowds were back to the center of the train. People only wanted to use the first stair, not the 2nd. This situation was worsened when another train came in from Manhattan. Also, when was the station renovated?
The game itself was fun. I arrived in time for the ceremonies and stayed through the top of the 13th inning. By that time, about 5,000 people were left, most of which were Oriole fans. I left the stadium itself at the end of the 13th and a mass exodus seemed to occur when I was on the el platform at what must have been the middle of the 14th inning. I got R33 9255 for the return to Manhattan. I was surprised they were running R33s on a Sunday afternoon. This trip was much faster. At 86th, an R142A came in. I took it to 77th. The car was 7373 (3rd car).
I took a taxi to Penn Station (time constraint). Once there, I did my usual rounds to the NJT schedule rack and found no Bergen/Main Line Schedules. Why are there never any? I knew my train, Acela 2259, was sold out. There was no Quiet Car. I was in the first car behind First Class with only a half window (I like full). At Metropark, a young woman sat down next to me at the seat started moving. I figured out what was wrong but an attendant who came along was actually able to get the seat to lock in place. The rest of the ride was pretty uneventful. The lights were dimmed after leaving Philly. This was my first all night Amtrak trip and I didn't like the lack of a view. My one question is at Baltimore, a train pulled in with 2 baggage cars, 2 or 3 Amfleet cars (RS paint), and a sleeper. Is this the Twilight Shoreliner? It was in the right place schedule wise but is is that short every night?
Feedback welcome...
P.S. I may have been on TV during the 12th inning (at least here in DC) but I can't confirm this...
Yes, Metropark is on the curve.
No Bergen/Main line schedules? NJT puts out small amount of them at Penn because virtually no one going on Bergen line uses Penn Station. Plus NJT is delivering new schedules very late.
On 09/30 most of NJT changed schedules and Coast Line wasn't available until 9/26, and Morris&Essex until 9/27.
But no schedules in two times I travel? Even though there were very few this time, everything else was in abundance.
<Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Oct 1 17:21:31 2001
I was in NYC for about 24 hours this weekend, but not at Shoreline. My purpose of traveling was to see Cal Ripken's final game ever but turned out to be his final road game and final game at Yankee Stadium. I am not sure if they need to replay the game if I can come, but thats another matter.
To start, I got on Acela Express 2208 at BWI on Saturday afternoon. This was the 2027-2033 Trainset (#13). I made my way to the Quiet Car at the front. Last time I had 2208, I got the same conductor on 2153 on my return to DC. He still had 2208 on Saturday and while he keyed open the door where I was waiting at BWI, he only recognized me when he came to collect my ticket. Once he closed up at Baltimore, he came to me and took me to the lead power car, 2027. He introduced me to the engineer, and I sat down at the fireman's controls. This allowed me to chat with the engineer while we cruised along from Baltimore to Wilmington. I was able to watch the signals, speedometer, and other displays, and see the railfan view of the Northeast Corridor. Its just like MS Train Simulator except with far more detail. I was able to see the yard at Perryville that I didn't even know existed, the (poorly marked) Newark and Churchman's Crossing Stations, and many other things. The view from the front is very different from that on the side. We passed one train being pulled by a Genesis Locomotive and I couldn't figure out which train this was from my schedule. This was near Aberdeen, I think. If anyone knows, please respond (Remember to refer to the July schedule!).>>
That was likely #19--The Crescent. It gets a power chnge at 30th Street.
<>
Metropark is on a slight eastward curve. Elizabeth used to be on a SHARP curve in the days before it was rebuilt with high platforms, and largely on tangent track, ca. 1986.
<>
Sounds like some paranoid yutz taking matters into his own hands. There have been many photogs out on the NY system since D-Day and no problem. Nothing more than a few off-the-cuff remarks from the nearest Patrolman and some sly smiles from T/O's that is! As long as you are in a public area; no tripods or flashes (you didn't flash in the T/O's face I hope)--ENJOY!
<>
They were still working on the mezzanine last fall, during the Subway Series. Far as I know the IND level is still under reconstruction.
<I took a taxi to Penn Station (time constraint). Once there, I did my usual rounds to the NJT schedule rack and found no Bergen/Main Line Schedules. Why are there never any? I knew my train, Acela 2259, was sold out. There was no Quiet Car. I was in the first car behind First Class with only a half window (I like full). At Metropark, a young woman sat down next to me at the seat started moving. I figured out what was wrong but an attendant who came along was actually able to get the seat to lock in place. The rest of the ride was pretty uneventful. The lights were dimmed after leaving Philly. This was my first all night Amtrak trip and I didn't like the lack of a view. My one question is at Baltimore, a train pulled in with 2 baggage cars, 2 or 3 Amfleet cars (RS paint), and a sleeper. Is this the Twilight Shoreliner? It was in the right place schedule wise but is is that short every night?>>
Its been shorter lately but that could be a change for the new schedule. You're lucky it's still around at all.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I don't use flash. I use 800 speed film so the flash worsens the pictures.
As for the Twilight Shoreliner, its schedule was changed this time on train 67 (66 is still the same). I think it would gain popularity if they reinstated the option to borad from 9 PM until 2 AM in NYC and then hook up the car(s) to the train from Boston. I could use that every so often.
Also, did Newark Airport stop open yesterday?
yes, IMHO the current version is aweful. Item, arrival in DC is too early for Metro on weekends ('course that's because Metro is lame, still) But yes a real set out/pickup sleeper to/from NY would be useful, unfortunately the train only has one sleeper--so it runs all the way--dumb!! The other thing missing from pre-Amtrak times is the very late night mostly sleepers from the south train. I remember often walking along asking porters until one would say "yes I have a roomette" and then happily sacking out with a wake up call for Newark.
Geez I wish I could fanagle a cab ride on AE. Ya lucky bum! BTW, I'm going to be in DC this weekend, but it's the Mrs.'s birthday, so I don't know how much Metro-fanning I'm going to get to do. Also, staying in Arlington & have no car so must depend on family for transport to/from Dunn Loring. However, I hope to ride some of the Green Line portions which are new since I lived there in '93-'94.
Why didn t you take the D from the stadium and transfer for a A at either 59th or 125th, and save the cab fare
there are now 10/1/01 maps on the MTA alert website:
-subway
-bus
-lower Manhattan subway
-lower manhattan bus
If I see any new hard copy maps(color, black and white or full size I will post.)
First off i took LIRR to NYP from Rosedale with a Change at Jamaica. First off the Engine 9623 a M1-A had a MA switch problem the Engineer said. Meaning the Motor died resulting in a dark railroad car full of crying children scared of dark. Inspectors reset Fuse from Ground level. But i changed to a NY bound express train so i dunno what happened to 9623. Anyways i get on the NYP express, it goes on the express track(something i have never been on b4 on LIRR main to NY) i saw a Approach limited on a position light. I never saw that before! then the Train enters penn thru line 2! that was great. I always end up on a NY bound train that winds up entering thru line 4. Anyways best of all i see the Acela express with locomotive 2027! I have never seen the Acela myself, only pictures From Transitalk.com and other websites. That thing looks like a Airplane without wings! makes me wish i worked for Amtrak! Anyways i head for school. After school A Train of R44s says A 8AV/Fulton LCL. C train service delayed. Finally a C was going express? Fulton subway havin problems. Anyways then i get on the J of R40M. Motorman must have been runnin late. Bumpy ride and he hit the switch north of jamaica center too hard. ARGGGGGHHHH. that is all
everyone have a nice day!
Does anyone know if R142's or a similar type train is coming to the #4 line? because I saw a whole bunch of those trains in the Grand Concourse/Bedford Park trainyard today. Usually, the yard is filled with R62 and R36 4's and R68 B's and D's. Today, there weren't many R62's or R36's there if any.
According to postings here, The #4 is supposed to have a small # of R-142A's from the #6. But I doubt that they will get to the #4 before the #6 has them.
The #4 line is supposed to get the r142a option order.
now its 4 gets r142a option order of 120 cars to make up for redbirds
The 30 cars you see in CONCOURSE YARD are there simply to be stored until they are needed for pre-acceptance testing.
Speaking of R142s, can someone explain the situation with the R142s in the 207th St Yard??? I think they are receiving modifications...can someone clarify for me???
Cleanairbus
you can e-mail the answer to me if ya want...carlwal@hotmail.com
For permanent R142s on the #4 you'll have to wait awhile, but they did run briefly there last year during the subway world series. -Nick
Some of you may know my NYC Subway T-shirts from the NY Trainsit
Museum. (Hope so!) If you're interested, come take a look at
my web site at
nycsubwayline.com
I've just expanded the site to include Juniors, and my famous
Yankee and Shea Stadium stop shirts.
Hope you like it!
Ah, now I know where the NYCT crew got them from. (As seen during the Smithsonian Folklife Fest.)
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
I really do enjoy this line of clothing (got my (4) T-Shirt on now in fact!) - so many thanks to you for bringing them to the market.
Questions (suggestions, petitions) though:
Any chance in offering alternative legends with the Thorofare/Service instead of Boroughs?!? i.e. (4) LEXINGTON AV EXPRESS instead of BROOKLYN TO BRONX?!?
Any Diamond Logos possible?!?
How about a Subway Line Throwbacks line, with icons of the past, (QB), (QJ), (GG), Train to the Plane Logo, etc, or perhaps one Fantasy shirt for the dreamers (T) SECOND AV LOCAL...?!?
My little input aside, it bears repeating that I LOVE the lineup!!! Great to see the (W) just added too!
>>How about a Subway Line Throwbacks line, with icons of the past, (QB), (QJ), (GG), Train to the Plane Logo, etc, or perhaps one Fantasy shirt for the dreamers (T) SECOND AV LOCAL...?!?<<
Well, those fantasy shirts seem a bit out there, but it would be cool to see the throwbacks you mention, maybe done like the 'cooperstown collection' yankees jerseys (are all the coop. collection jersey's like that?). Those jeresys have the sleeves a different (matching) color than the rest of the jersey. You could make a grey shirt with a green QB circle and green sleeves (I'm getting too far into this...)
So glad you like the line (double entendre intended)
I am still trying to get all of the trains done. I carry each one
in 8 sizes, so it takes alot of time, money and warehouse space
to do it! I hope to get through them all eventually, then I can
move on.
I have got two new great ones (different concept) coming out in
about a month. Stay tuned.
i love the shirts, i am in atlanta now and would easily buy 1 of each...
is there any chance for some big sizes to be made available? 3x or so?
thanks!
Wow, those big sizes are so expensive to make, I can't afford to stock
them. The shirt manufacturers charge an extra 3 - 4 dollars per shirt, and want you to buy a case at a time. It becomes a production
and economic nightmare for a small company like mine. Just can't
handle it yet! Maybe when my company is full grown! I'm sorry about
that!
How about 2X??? and do you take credit cards
Yes, we make 2X, and take credit cards, check out the site for details!
I will wait for a XX Q or #1 Brighton Beach Exp
do they have a #7 train shirt ?? xxx large ( grande size ) ??
Oh, I do! Next paycheck I think I'll buy myself an "L".
Will you be expanding your line to include such goodies as the "M", the "G", or the "Q"?
wayne
Dear Wayne,
I promise to get to all of them eventually!
On the 26 route round shirt, will you be making the updated subway routes as of July 22 like the (Q),,(W),and (V)? I do have 3 of the old shirts, 1 black, 1 white and 1 grey.
Dear Neil,
Thanks for your support of my company!
I have the W in stock now. Check out the web site. The others will
be coming along eventually, just like the trains!
If and when you get them, could you please email me? Thanks.
Dear Neil,
I just reread your question, and I had mis-understood it before.
That design is called Multi-Circle. I just barely fit 26 route
indicators on there, and if you notice, the S train is still black -
the old color. I think I may have to leave that as is - a snapshot
of how the trains were in 1996. That shirt is my most difficult
to produce, and I don't want to mess with it.
Perhaps I'll find another way to get all of them on a shirt though.
Stay tuned!
Did you know that in the movie "Bring it On", some guy is wearing one of your shirts?
Yeah, Rob, isn't that cool? Jesse Bradford's mother and I are friends,
and when he was headed out to make the movie, I said, "I want to
get Jesse some of my products!" He took them right to wardrobe,
and they put them in the movie.
Check out my web site at nycsubwayline.com for other appearances -
including President Clinton - wearing the shirts!
I like it!! I like it!!
You are aware of all the ripoffs of your merchandise that is on sale in stores all over lower Broadway between 14th St and Canal St. They look almost like yours but they lack the MTA licensing logo.
I fell into that trap:-\
Don't shop at Yellow Rat Bastard for the true NYC Subway Line shirt, it was only till I walked out that it only said NYC slanted on the back...:-\
And be careful of Canal Jean. They have both.
I generally buy from the TM directly as I can get my 10% discount for being a member.
I noticed the TM stores had some shirts with double routes on them - i.e. 4/5 Bronx to Brooklyn, and then beneath them, an "ad" on rules of the subway. Are those available off the ncysubwayline.com web site? I didn't see them listed in the pictures.
--Mark
Yeah, I have been working on Canal Jeans to go totally legit.
Besides, mine are both more accurate and more attractive!
The only one I bought that you don't have is the "J" train shirt. They also have baseball hats with some of the lines as well...
Dear Third Rail,
Yeah, I know. It makes me sick. I try so hard to make this little
company a success and I have these leeches!
Yes, I am painfully aware of the counterfeits, and the MTA is about
to step in on this.
I was reading this article about how the MTA repaired the tunnel after the crash.Because of some problems the rescue workers had to use a hydrolic pump which was borrowed from Metro North.Today does the NTA have a hydrolic pump of their own god forbid another Union Square happens?And if thy don't does Metro north still have a hydrolic pump?Also is there a connection between the subway,LIRR or/and MNR?Finnaly(I know)Were the damaged/destroyed cars renumbered for another R62,R142 or R143?
>>Also is there a connection between the subway,LIRR or/and MNR?<<
There are trackways for a LIRR connection, but no actual trackage. The most famous one is at Atlantic av, where there is a trackway connecting the uptown local tracks to the LIRR Flatbush terminal.
There was also one somewhere near the Linden shops facility, but the tracks have been removed there too.
>>Were the damaged/destroyed cars renumbered for another R62,R142 or R143?<<
No.
There WAS track there about 3 years ago but due to recent construction it was removed and now homeless people are known to reside there.
Tonite - Mon 10/01/01, on the History Channel's "This week in History",
one of the segments will discuss NYC Grand Central Terminal.
(also first non-stop transpacific flight; Henry Ford; Sputnik)
8pm ET;
Repeats at 12 MID ET
I out to the HCRR on Sunday for their fall extravaganza and met up with one of my friends, James, who volunteers there. The weather was lovely and a reasonable assortment of vehicles were running, although one of the Peter Witts was down as was CTA 48 and both the TRC wooden car and the TCR (TCR, not a typo of TRC) double ended car are unchanged. Several of us noticed that there weren't as many visitors as usual for the extravaganza but the turnout was still very good and it wasn't crowded anywhere which was fine.
The day itself was uneventful except for the first trip that the Gloucsters made down the line - while they were loading someone already inside pressed the Passenger Emergency Alarm, the long yellow strip above the windows, in one of the cars. It still works perfectly as those people with hearing aids or very young kids discovered especially. I tried the cab door hoping that it was unlocked so I could just walk in and push the button to turn off the alarm but the door was locked tight and it wasn't long before someone else who had a cab key and knew which button to press came up and shut the noise off. Needless to say, those emergency assistance alarms were/are very effective.
I later rode down to the other end of the line on the air PCC with James who was driving it. When we arrived at the end of the line, I bumped into one of the TTC streetcar drivers I know who has been a member of the HCRR since some time in the early to mid 1970s. He started joking about how he should've known he'd find me on a PCC and I joked back - mainly for the 'benefit' of some of the more stuffy HCRR members standing around - that I was showing considerable restraint since I hadn't stolen any of the PCCs and taken it for a spin yet. He caught on so we started up our running joke about how I 'steal cars' which was fun indeed - seeing the acute looks of horror on these guys faces while they glanced between the two of us, listening to us joke around was worth every last penny of the $7.50 admission fee I paid to get in!
The rest of the day was quite uneventful by comparison, perhaps lamentably so. I was disappointed by the fact that they started putting streetcars away at least a full hour before the stated 5:00PM closing time because it made for a very short day and I didn't get to ride on quite a few of them as a result including the all electric PCC, 4600, which is one of my favourites (I never 'stole' that one, I only ever got my hands on the higher numbered ones).
Next year should be more interesting with the Gloucsters getting painted next summer, the M1 subway cars hopefully running and the restoration of the London (Ontario) streetcar finished.
-Robert King
When the Station is rebuilt could the old mosaic be brought back in some way perhaps even built into the wall like is was from 1915-1970?
That would indeed be a very nice thing to do! I suspect that behind what is left of that beige brick are samples of the original tablets, friezes and hexagonal "ferryboat" icons. Perhaps some of these are in salvageable condition. If so, then they can do what was done at Christopher Street-Sheridan Square and Canal/Varick stations - that is to reproduce the original icons. The original pattern is the same as is found in all of the local stops from South Ferry (INNER LOOP) to 28th Street - the "hourglass" pattern with hexagonal (sideways) icons; the icons at Cortlandt Street showed a steamer ferryboat crossing the river. If they don't use that pattern, perhaps an icon showing the new buildings could be used. In any case, the original 1917 design should be recreated.
wayne
I'm all for preservation and restoration. But there is also room for what is the best of today. And certainly this station deserves the best of what current design can do, particularly considering that it's likely to be a memorial in its own right.
I've mentioned my own ideas already. Recycle some of those crumpled columns into the design. Then, big bright mosaics of cops and firemen.
They might try to do it on the cheap, tho', essentially repairing the station in situ, with mis-matched tiles where replacement is necessary.
Are there pictures on this site anywhere of what the mosaics used
to look like? I'd love to refresh my memory on those.
Perhaps my t-shirt company could find a way to preserve what was
on a shirt. Though, I am torn between your ideas of a restoration or
and a memorial to the firefighters and police officers.
I love the stations where tiles are hand-painted and made part of
the walls.
I can see hundreds of their faces painted on tiles and used at the
station. The bad part is, it would be so incredibly sad everyday.
Those who lived through it might not be able to take that constant
reminder.
A permanent wall where survivors could come to remember those lost,
like the walls of the "missing" all over the city, would be appropriate. Like the Vietnam memorial. I know that the survivors
take comfort just touching the names of their loved ones on that wall.
It may not be best done underground, though.
I will try to speak to the "Arts in Transit" folks to see if there
are any plans in development.
>>> A permanent wall where survivors could come to remember those lost, like the walls of the "missing" all over the city, would be appropriate. Like the Vietnam memorial. I know that the survivors take comfort just touching the names of their loved ones on that wall <<<
Although a memorial like this might be appropriate somewhere at the WTC site, it should not be in the subway station (particularly within fare control) since the purpose of the station (and the TA) is to move people from one location to another. Any thing that would attract people to the station and cause them to stay within the station would be counter productive. A mural depicting firefighters and other emergency personnel without names might be appropriate.
Tom
Are there pictures on this site anywhere of what the mosaics used to look like? I'd love to refresh my memory on those.
look here, scroll down to Cortlandt St.
Good show, Dave, coming up with those two lost icons! If the originals are going to be recreated, this will be invaluable reference material, especially iw_cortlandt05.jpg, which shows the original colors and border detail.
wayne
Current policy is to restore the "traditional" (original) look when renovating stations. While I do not have official info, it is likely that the Beige brick will revert to the original white along with the original ornamentation. Ssd far as art work- I expect federal funds will be used to rebuild the 1 line. If this is true, then artwork must be included.
BTW- Peggy is working on a tile setting page--it seems that not all white tile is arranged the same way. She has found at least 3 patterns-
stacked (most stations on the IRT and IND), Running bond(most common brick pattern seen on houses)and can be seen at Chambers on the J among others. A third pattern is an English bond which has alternating layers of square tile with narrow rectangular tile. each pattern alternates from the last, with each of the same pattern being stacked from the last courtse of its own kind. An example of this is Cortlandt BMT, 36 St Brooklyn and others.
English Bond can be found in any of the 4th Avenue express stations, as well as 9th Avenue lower level and station house, as well as stops along the Pelham Bay underground stretch from 3 Avenue to Hunts Point. I am sure there are other examples of this style as well.
wayne
To The Group:
Refining the IRT Notes of September 22-23, 2001.
R-62A fleets assigned to the #1 and #3 lines prior to the September 11 emergency were pooled for use on the extended #1 to New Lots Ave., starting September 19, 2001.
On September 25, R-62As assigned to the #1 line (1651-1675, 1711-1715, 1726-1735, 1771-1775, 1816-1830, 1856-1865, 2156-2475) began appearing on the 3. These are two sets of "linked" or unitized sets of 5 cars each and the first time such equipment has been used on the 3 line. Cars assigned to the 3 line continue to be used on the extended 1. These generally consist of 5 singles and one 5-car unit (1800s) or 10 single units.
There have also been at least 20 additional R-62As transferred from the Pelham fleet to the Broadway (#1) fleet.
There were exactly 20 R-62As transferred from 6 to 1 on September 15, 2001: 1671-1675, 1711-1715, 1771-1775 and 1816-1820. This is being regarded as a temporary change.
Redbirds on the 2 and 5 lines have been pooled more so than previous.
As of September 25, there were 194 GE R-26/28/29s active. Most are on the 5, a handful have turned up on the 2.
As of September 25, R-33 trains are broken into several subgroups:
8806-8835, 8856-8883 and 8886-8953 are assigned to the 5 and also run on the 2. There is often R-33s from the 2 mixed into these consists.
8836-8855 remain on the 4, mixed with 9216-9223 and 9226-9305.
8954-8957, 8960-8967, 8970-8979, 8982-9017, 9020-9055 and 9058-9075 are assigned to the 2 and also run on the 5. There may be R-33s from the 8806-8835 and 8856-8953 groups mixed into these consists.
9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9123, 9126-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-9151, 9154-9211 and 9214/9215 are assigned to the 2. They also appear on the 5 and might have R-33s from the other groups mixed into consists.
To illustrate the above, here were the 2/5 Redbird consists observed on September 22, 2001:
1) #5: 8747/8746-8714/8715-8764/8765-7914/7915-7774/7775.
2) #5: 8688/8689-7920/7921-7809/7808-7856/7857-8783/8782.
3) #5: 8935/8934-8870/8871-8860/8861-8817/8816-8811/8810.
4) #5: 8727/8726-7805/7804-7831/7830-7816/7817-7848/7849.
5) #5: 8994/8995-9026/9027-9066/9067-8944/8945-9003/9002.
6) #5: 9201/9200-9148/9149-9185/9184-9194/9195-9014/9015.
7) #5: 9139/9138-9107/9106-9123/9122-9043/9042-9168/9169.
8) #5: 8992/8993-9044/9045-8983/8982-9210/9211-9028/9029.
9) #5: 8760/8761-8711/8710-8752/8753-7896/7897-7958/7959.
10) #5: 7795/7796-8768/8769-7899/7898-8792/8793-8702/8703.
11) #5: 8717/8716-8733/8732-8804/8805-8719/8718-8771/8770.
12) #5: 7937/7936-7867/7866-8694/8695-7791/7790-7773/7772.
13) #2: 9203/9202-9159/9158-9085/9084-9075/9074-9130/9225.
14) #2: 9171/9170-9112/9113-9034/9035-9172/9173-9086/9087.
15) #2: 9212/9115-9080/9081-9076/9077-9048/9049-9097/9096.
16) #2: 8812/8813-8925/8924-8906/8907-8863/8862-8975/8974.
17) #2: 9062/9063-9000/9001-9064/9065-9151/9150-9103/9102.
18) #2: 7819/7818-7933/7932-8744/8745-8784/8785-7781/7780.
19) #2: 9179/9178-9017/9016-9012/9013-9141/9140-9188/9189.
R-62As assigned to the 3 have not changed, but are extended to 10-car trains.
There is a strong possibility some of the Livonia-based R-62As (blue stripes) may begin to congregate numerically in groups of 5, as a prelude to partial unitization.
There were about 74 WH R-29s remaining on the 6.
As of September 25 there were 80 WH R-29s active on the 6. Several sets have been cycled in and out of service through August and September; 12 were reactivated when the 20 R-62As went to the 1 on September 15. As more R-142As are placed in service the withdrawal of WH R-29s will resume.
These were the #6 Redbird consists of September 22, 2001:
1) #6: 8592/8593-8671/8670-8617/8616-8666/8667-8591/8590.
2) #6: 8608/8609-8613/8612-8581/8580-8657/8656-8679/8678.
3) #6: 8621/8620-8665/8664-8605/8604-8632/8633-8651/8650.
4) #6: 8644/8645-8618/8619-8683/8682-8653/8652-8643/8642.
The IRT Car Assignment for September 25, 2001 is posted separately.
As for B-Division equipment assignments, the summary was as follows for September 25, 2001:
A: R-32, R-38, R-44
B: R-68
C: R-32, R-38
D: R-68
E: R-32, R-46
F: R-46
G: R-46
H: R-44
J: R-40M/42
L: R-40, R-40M/42
M: R-40, R-40M/42
(N Suspended)
Q Circle: R-32, R-68, R-68A
Q Diamond: R-40
(R suspended)
S (Franklin): R-68
S (Rockaway Park): R-44
S (63rd): R-32
S (Grand): R-46
W: R-68, R-68ARegards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The "H" and S(Rockaway Park) are the same thing.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Southern Brooklyn:
Q Express, sooo many R68s on the Q Express it's not funny. I like the R68s on the Q express. I don't care what you say, my choice. Somebody ride the line a few times and time it. The 7:00 or so T/O on the Q Express worked wonders today. Fast speed and 1 steady brake stopped the train at every station nicely. The 7 Avenue-Atlantic Avenue timers were handled nicely, never touched the brakes, or at least I couldn't feel them. We were going atleast 25-30 in the GT35 area. Som other stuff for railfans to notice, notice how well a 75 footer takes the 3rd rail gap south of Newkirk Avenue leaving the station toward Brighton. The 60 footers chokes and take a few seconds to come back.
A Hippo on steroids oh my ! They are going to blow a gasket or something ... lots of work for the Dude in the Bronx. Too bad they don't have a railfan window :-(
Mr t
The R-68s (Hippos) happen to ride a lot better than the Slant R-40s. I'm sure that the R-68s are juat as fast as the Slant R-40s but are a lot smoother.
#3 West End Jeff
Smooth with out a railfan window is OK for "customers", but not much fun for us ... need I say more.
BTW, our PCC #1001 starts rocking as ONE person gets on, so when she goes down the line that's FUN.
Mr t
Yes, I happen to think so, I swear, you barely hear it accelerate and it's sooo quiet when the A/C of off. I was a cold morning.
> The 7 Avenue-Atlantic Avenue timers
Which timers are those?
- Lyle Goldman
There are a set or 35 MPH timers heading northbound from 7 Avenue to Atlantic Avenue.
Don't forget:
Q diamond: R40, R68
I came to New York last Saturday to dance Argentine Tango all night. Dancing cheek to cheek, chest to chest with emotional connection is a great way to forget the world's events, if only for 3 minutes 22 seconds.
I left from New Carrollton, MD, the stop after Washington on #186 (2:16 PM) scheduled to arrive NYP at 5:35 PM. I got in ten minutes late. The train stopped around N. Philly (MP 86 to be exact) to clear debris from the track. An off duty NY policeman on the train got off and arrested a suspect (14 YO). The train proceeded to N Philly where both got off to wait for Amtrak police. It was weird to see the boy in handcuffs.
It was an erie feeling to see the NY skyline after crossing Portal Drawbridge and NOT seeing the towers. The city looked naked with only the Empire State Building standing guard.
Upon arrival, I decided to ride the #2 to E241 Street. Why? It's like Star Trek. To go where I've never been before.
No matter how much I read on this board and MTA web page about changes, you can't fully comprehend them until you ride. It was strange to see handmade signs that said "1 local, 2 express" on the local tracks at Penn Station. To see the #3 on the express track with only one destination posted. (14th street isn't on the roll sign.)
At 135th, I changed to the #2. A female employee (don't know if subway or bus) was talking to the motorman, so the door was open, but I couldn't look in because it was open as little as possible and the woman was hefty. I couldn't understand any of the conversation until we got to about 223rd street. "I can smell the terminal now."
What I don't understand is why the MTA can put out a subway map "REVISED 9/19" but CAN'T or WON'T put out updated bus guides for the boroughs. It's ridiculous that you get a Bronx guide for September 1999 or Manhattan guide for January 2000. I wonder if there is a bias towards rail operations over bus operations. Note: Somebody wrote that I should go to the LIRR office in the passenger waiting area to get schedules. Nice idea but the office was CLOSED!
My original plan was to ride back to 180th Street and ride the #5 to Dyre Avenue. Not enough time, I stayed on the #2 to 135th, #3 to 72, #2 to 59th, C to 50th and ate dinner at Beefsteak Charlie's. Then onto dancing. I didn't realize that Amtrak has suspended DAILY luggage storage at Penn Station so I took my bags to the dance studio.
On my next visit, I'll try to get to Dyre Avenue.
When it ended at 5:15 AM, two women gave me a lift to the station to catch #79 at 6:05 AM. Boarding was delayed because "no motor, no lights." Some things never change.
The ride was smooth. I fell asleep and woke up in Philly. Went back to sleep and woke up in Wilmington. Went back to sleep and woke up in Baltimore. Stayed awake to New Carrollton.
Michael
Uh oh, did the off duty police officer board to arrest the 14 y/o for putting the debris on the track? I never knew you can actually get arrested for that... :-\
I suppose to place debris on the track requires that you trespass on railroad property.
True.
IRT Car Assignments-September 25, 2001
1/3 (Red)-390 cars
390 WH R-62A 1651-1675, 1711-1715, 1726-1735, 1771-1775, 1816-1830, 1856-1865, 2156-2475 (unitized).
3/1 (Blue)-273 cars
273 WH R-62A 1871-1908, 1910-2154 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1965, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs; 1871-1900 are unitized).
2 (Black)-491 cars
112 GE R-33 8954-8957, 8960-8967, 8970-8979, 8982-9017, 9020-9055, 9058-9075.
134 GE R-33 9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9123, 9126-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-9151, 9154-9211, 9214/9215.
245 Am R-142 6301-6360, 6411-6445, 6476-6480, 6501-6540, 6576-6680.
GE R-26/28/29s from 5 also used on 2.
GE R-33s from 5 (8806-8835, 8856-8883, 8886-8953) also used on 2.
GE R-33s from 2 also used on 5.
4 (Orange)-423 cars
20 GE R-33 8836-8855.
88 GE R-33 9216-9223, 9226-9305.
315 GE R-62 1301-1365, 1371-1434, 1438, 1441-1625 (unitized).
5 (Green)-320 cars
14 GE R-26 7768-7775, 7786/7787, 7790/7791, 7794/7795.
32 GE R-26 7804-7809, 7812/7813, 7816-7821, 7824-7827, 7830-7833, 7838/7839, 7842/7843, 7848/7849, 7852/7853, 7856/7857.
24 GE R-28 7860-7869, 7878-7881, 7886-7889, 7896-7899, 7906/7907.
22 GE R-28 7914-7917, 7920/7921, 7924-7927, 7930-7933, 7936-7939, 7948/7949, 7958/7959.
102 GE R-29 8688-8705, 8708-8711, 8714-8735, 8738-8741, 8744-8771, 8774/8775, 8780-8799, 8802-8805.
126 GE R-33 8806-8835, 8856-8883, 8886-8953.
GE R-33s from 2 (8954-8957, 8960-8967, 8970-8979, 8982-9017, 9020-9055, 9058-9075, 9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-9151, 9154-9211, 9214/9215) also used on 5.
Two WH R-62A from 6 (1676-1710, 1716-1725, 1736-1770, 1776-1815, 1831-1855, 1866-1870) on 5 for OPTO.
GE R-26/28/29s from 5 also used on 2.
GE R-33s from 5 (8806-8835, 8856-8883, 8886-8953) also used on 2.
6 (Yellow)-510 cars
80 WH R-29 8570-8573, 8576/8577, 8580-8585, 8588-8597, 8604/8605, 8608/8609, 8612/8613, 8618-8625, 8628-8633, 8640-8653, 8656/8657, 8660-8673, 8676-8679, 8682-8685.
150 WH R-62A 1676-1710, 1716-1725, 1736-1770, 1776-1815, 1831-1855, 1866-1870 (unitized).
280 Am R-142A 7211-7485, 7491-7495 (unitized).
Two WH R-62A from 6 (1676-1710, 1716-1725, 1736-1770, 1776-1815, 1831-1855, 1866-1870) on 5 for OPTO.
7 (WH-Black, GE-Yellow)-403 cars
38 WH WF R-33 9307-9320, 9322-9345.
132 WH WF R-36 9346-9477.
20 WH R-36 9526-9539, 9542/9543, 9546/9547, 9550/9551.
212 GE WF R-36 9558-9769.
S (Blue)-10 cars
10 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-2154 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1965, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The 5 was all Redbird, the 2 was half, the 4 had some and the 6 had few. And the 7 didn't recieve its first R62A's until Feburary 2002.
From The Boston Globe's Sunday "Start and Stops column.
{ It was ''Whip 'em Off Wednesday'' last week at the MBTA, which removed more than 1,000 advertising placards from its stations and buses. That's what ''WOW'' stood for today, though it's also the promotional slogan for the popular, radio duo Opie and Anthony, who appear on WBCN-FM in Boston. General manager Robert H. Prince Jr. yesterday killed a four-week advertising campaign after only five days because the seemingly benign three-letter word prominently displayed throughout the transit system is also a controversial acronym. At WBCN, ''WOW'' stands for ''Whip 'em Out Wednesday,'' an invitation for women to bare their breasts publicly. ''It slipped through the cracks,'' said MBTA spokesman Joe Pesaturo. ''We're going to have to scrutinize these ads a little closer.''}
This shows how stupid the T has gotten. The word "WOW" is not offensive I don't find anything that the radio station is doing to be offensive. What I find offensive is religious fundamentalists passing out hateful leaflets on the platforms and telling passengers they are going to go to hell. Why can't the T do something about that?
I'm so glad I don't reside in Boston, or have to ride the crappy "T".
Hey be careful what you say. Boston is great city is like New York no do a like the way the state government work no way but it is great city nonetheless. And the Red, Orange and Blue lines are as good as the New York subway. They don't have an express local system but the stations are placed further apart than they are in New York.
Hahahaha! That's a really good joke! Just as good as NYC!
In case you haven't noticed, Boston and NYC have always had some sort of rivalry or another (the biggest one is the Yankees and Red Sox). The Boston T is just another system that tries to be like NYC but just doesn't quite fill the bill.
"The Boston T is just another system that tries to be like NYC but just doesn't quite fill the bill."
No the "T" is actually older than the New York subway. We had the first subway in North America (1897) The first electric high platform subway (1901) the first under water rapid transit tunnel (1904) and we started the station modernization program in 1967. The T never tries to be like the NYC Subway.
The MBTA also serves a huge district with commuter rail lines extending to almost every point of the compass. The subway system is not as extensive as that in NYC but you must remember that the city is far smaller physically than New York and has only one-tenth the population. The subways and certainly (T) management have their shortcomings, but there is a history of innovation, some good some not so good. The MBTA does its job in Boston as well as the MTA does in New York. Nobody's perfect. :)
I have my fair share of gripes with the "T", but as a college student on the south shore of Boston who is carless, its what i have to deal with to get into the city. But nontheless, it can be fun too as a railfan. The building of the north station superstation, mattapan line, and riding type 8s (when they actually run) is a thrill, along with riding any subway. -Nick
[re censorship of "WOW" ads]
Most likely, the MBTA got some complaints, and figured out that removing the ads would be less controversial than keeping them.
I was heading home on the 'A' after dropping a friend off at a Nearby station when to my surprise I saw a R-68A on the Smith 9th Street-Bound track of the G line. But it wasnt a 'G' it was a 'Q'. I had to take a good look at the opposite side of the station because I was on a crowded Lefferts-Bound 'A'. It happened around 9 PM today. Any Ideas why there was a 'Q' at Hoyt??
R68x domination!! It's everywhere. 6 Avenue, Queens Boulevard, Broadway, Central Park West, Concourse, Brighton, West End, and now Crosstown.
I'd be really worried if they start showing up on the IRT or down here on Metro.
If they show up on the IRT, then I've got 2 words for you: STAND BACK!!!
If R68's showed up on an IRT, they would actually be like hippos for the first time.
Imagine a 75-footer trying to do the curve between Courthouse Square and Hunterspoint Ave. OY!
:-D Andrew
SCREEE-EEEE-EECH!!!
CRR-UU-NNNNNNNNCH!!!!
i thought B Division cars cannot fit on A Division tracks. So what would a R68 be doing on the 7!!!
It wouldn't be. Therein lies the joke.
:-) Andrew
Why do people suddenly get the notion that R68A's will show up on the IRT division lines? What kind of inside or outside jokes are these?
If Train Dude looked at this thread and didn't take it as a joke, he would be surprised at all of you.
WHERE did everyone suddenly think that R68A's will show up on the #7 line?
Railfan Pete
Anyone with a brain knows that that was a joke.
Just silly thoughts, intentionally so. We all know B-divison cars can't run on the IRT lines (such as the 7.) Don't take it so seriously.
:-) Andrew
Oh... that's what that long, 75 foot silver train with steel wheels running on the Montreal Metro the other day was... :-)
R68x domination!! It's everywhere. 6 Avenue, Queens Boulevard, Broadway, Central Park West, Concourse, Brighton, West End, and now Crosstown.
You're being redundant considering the fact that the Concourse line and the 6th Av. lines connect with the same B and D trains.
The Brighton line (Q) operates through the Qns. Blvd. line until R service can be restored. *
Just because an R68(A) appears on the Crosstown line only once, doesn't mean the T/A is going to operate it through there even for a while.
* FYI: Next time you make a visit to the Queens Blvd. line, report to me how many R68's you see here. I was here last Sunday, and I saw 7 Brighton iine trains. None of them were an R68(A).
Was it just me or did I have bad luck? Any other Qns. Blvd. trip reports?
Railfan Pete.
Just got off of a 71st bound circle Q-train R8(A)consist. As far as I've seen over the past few weeks there have been quite a few 68(A)circle-Q's. ]
Also saw the elusive r143 'running laps' out in Far Rockaway this morning and later again this afternoon. So that's where they've been keeping it.
Police action on the Manhattan Bridge. Therefore the train got rerouted to Stillwell via the G Crosstown and the F south of Bergen.
Time for R. Marrero to add a lime-green Q to the subway bullets web page collection.
Jose
:)
Why was there police action on the Manhattan Bridge? Also, did the Q train skip any stops, and did it go all the way to Coney Island?
- Lyle Goldman
The Branford pict's are great. I wish I could have been there. I never knew Branford had 4 gate cars untill looking at the preserved car pictures just now. Are any of the other 3 close to running? I also saw the pictures of SIRT 388 which looks really good as well. Anyone know does it run?
We actually have 5 gate cars: 659, 1227, 1349, 1362 and 197. The
latter is a blind trailer. Only 1227 runs.
The SI car 388 does not run and it will require a pretty heavy
overhaul before it can do so. It was stored for 20+ years
at the Con Ed plant in SI where water ruined most of the wiring.
It also needs to have its wheels trued.
When the last R30s retired in 1993 the ERA did the "farewell", on what BMT/IND lines did it cover during that fantrip? What car #s were used other than 8317?
The R-30 trip was like this:
Leave 59th St - Columbus Circle, via IND 6th Ave line to Brooklyn via Rutgers Street Tunnel
Express Jay St - Ave X via IND SOuth Brooklyn & BMT Culver Lines
Run through Coney Island yard
Stillwell Ave to Prospect Park via Brighton Express
Franklin Ave Shuttle
Return to Stillwell Ave via Brighton Express
Stillwell Ave to 9th Ave / 39th St via West End Line
Reverse move into lower level of 9th Ave / 39th Street
Reverse move into 36th St yard
39th St to 21st Street / Queensbridge via 4th Ave express / Manhattan Bridge / IND 6th Ave Express
Return to 34th Street / 6th Ave - end of trip
Take a virtual ride on the fantrip.
--Mark
question did you use 3M 35mm film ?? the pics look like they were shot with 3M film...
the shots did not look like they were done with kodak gold or fuji film ...
I have a question on the 42nd Street Shuttle all its life the shuttle have ran only single unit trains(R12,R14,R15,R17-22)unit the R62/62A arrived, but did the shuttle ever ran married pair trains like R26-33ML?
From memory, the shuttle went from R17's directly to R62/62A's.
I don't ever recall seeing married "R" pairs on the GCS.
R-17 #6688 did service there in white.
Mr t
And an orange, then blue interior.
Mr z
And in Redbird paint months before entering Branford's property.
-Stef
Hey Stef, has 6688 ever been signed up for the 42nd St. shuttle since it's been at Shore Line?
Don't forget the Lo-v's in your list of single units that made up consists on the Shuttle.
I still remember when the Shuttle ran the 1938 World's Fair Low-Vs in the 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
From the Railway Age Website:
RailWorks files for reorganization
Railworks Corp. and its U.S. subsidiaries filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization on Sept. 21. Canadian operations are not affected by the filing. The company's existing credit group has agreed to provide it with a credit and bond facility up to $165 million. Chief Executive John Kennedy said this means that "every division of our company will be able to compete for new business, including bonded business." The credit group includes Bank of America, CSFB Global Opportunity Advisers, Stonehill Capital Management, and a unit of Travelers Insurance.
Railworks lists the following NYCT projects on its website:
New York City Transit Authority (NYCTA) White Plains - Phase II Signal Rehabilitation Project, White Plains, NY.
Rehabilitate the existing 75-year-old signal system along the White Plains Line (LRT), including the Phase II segment from 149th Street Station to 180th Street Station in the Bronx. $89 million.
New York City Transit Authority (NYCTA)Carnarsie Line, New York, NY.
Complete installation of a new Communications Based Train Control System (CBTC) for 13 route miles of the Canarsie Line subway in association with Matra Transport International and Union Switch & Signal. Contract value: $75 million.
NYCTA, New York, NY.
Rehabilitate the train control signal system for 5.1 miles of track on the Flushing Line subway. Contract value: $67 million.
NYCTA, New York, NY.
Furnish and install 8 escalators at 5 locations in the boroughs of Brooklyn and Manhattan. Contract value: $15 million.
What does this mean for current projects?
You can't tell w/o more information. It could mean anything from nothing to having to get a new contractor. If the company is sound in the long run but having a short term cash crunch, I expect it will try to honor as many of its contracts as it can.
Looks like all of the above projects will be delayed a bit. But how is it that they go belly up when NYCTA is in the process of paying them for a work in progress?
(But how is it that they go belly up when NYCTA is in the process of paying them for a work in progress?)
RWKS bought up half the signal contractors in the U.S., leveraging itself to the hilt in the process, in an attempt to become the mega-contractor. The NYCT contractors made money, but others lost, and eventually drained the whole thing into Chapter 11.
Hopefully after reorganization, the profit-making parts of RWKS (ie. the parts that do business with the TA) will emerge as separate going concerns, without money being siphoned off to other parts of the country.
BUT there is practically no one left in the signal business to do TA contracts, which is why RWKS had so many. Less competition means higher prices and delays.
Some escalator projects they have include:
125 on the 1
Myrtle/Wyckoff(M/L)
Boro Hall (2/3-1 escalator) and (N/R to IRT=2 escalators).
125 and Broadway has slipped from spring 2001 to fall and I expect it to be longer.
Myrtle/Wyckoff has slipped to Spring 2002.
Is LK Comstock under the Railworks umbrella?
(Is LK Comstock under the Railworks umbrella?)
Yes, although at this point perhaps there's a better word that "umbrella." "Cloud" is more like it.
Last night, I was watching New York: A Documentary Film by Ric Burns on channel 21, WLIW. A main topic of the episode was about Robert Moses (or, as I like to call him, The Destroyer). The story-angle was skewed unmercifully against the man, and even showed clips of him in interviews, where his arrogance and stubborness was unabashedly in full-view. Of course, my point of view about his "legacy" was the same as the film, but I couldn't help wonder if there are/were any supporters of Robert Moses who were not politicians or Long Island Real Estate developers.
The segment wrapped up with the story of the woman (I can't remember her name) who wrote a book about re-thinking "modernism" and urban planning to include efforts to preserve and rennovate, rather than destroy. She led the fight against the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would have run on 30th Street (I presume between the Lincoln and Queens Midtown tunnels), and won. Considering what she was up against, it seems like a miracle she could thwart Mr. Automobile (ironic that the man couldn't drive!).
Also, a large portion of the episode was about the destruction of Penn Station, with the pictures we have all seen of its heyday and final days.
I recommend this documentary highly for anyone who loves the city, even transplants like me.
I've read a lot about the things Robert Moses did on this forum. As someone who isn't from New York, there are a lot of things I don't know about his story. My questions are: What motivated him? Why was he so pro car and anti-transit? What was his underlying vision, and was it typical of his time?
Mark
I've read a lot about the things Robert Moses did on this forum. As someone who isn't from New York, there are a lot of things I don't know about his story. My questions are: What motivated him? Why was he so pro car and anti-transit? What was his underlying vision, and was it typical of his time?
Moses was largely a product of his times. He came to power in an era when city life had little if any of the urbane, sophisticated charm that it often has today. The immigrants or children of immigrants who populated New York and some other cities during the decades starting after World War I seldom if ever saw the cities as charming places; more likely, they found their neighborhoods to be crowded, noisy and dirty, and were dependent on crowded subways, trolleys and buses for mobility. Many of these people longed for the comparatively wide-open spaces in the suburbs, and more importantly for the mobility and sense of freedom offered by automobiles. While Moses sought to satisfy those desires, he did not create them.
(While Moses sought to satisfy those desires, he did not create them.)
Exactly the point, and where Caro goes wrong. With benefit of hindsight Moses did some good things, and some bad things. But older cities didn't decline because Moses had power (as Caro implies). Moses had power because he latched onto social trends and rode them.
Caro's entire thesis -- that the expressways destroyed neighborhoods and caused the entire flight to the suburbs and the decline of the cities -- is based on his section on East Tremont and the Cross Bronx. He claimed that East Tremont had held off blight -- that white flight had been stopped right below it. Only when the expressway went through did white flight accelerate.
What, however, about the "control group?" There was massive white flight from central Brooklyn and no expressway. There was no white flight in Windsor Terrace and an expressway that tore out the center of the neighborhood (the Prospect). What about the decline of neighborhoods in other older cities that didn't have expressways built through them? His correlation, based on one case and questionable in any event, is ridiculous.
Title I and Title II were disasters for the cities. But if Title I uprooted the poor in favor of the affluent, why did the cities become the poorhouses of the nation?
In short, Moses role in the negative is exaggerated (he himself exaggerated his own role in the positive). Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Caro's entire thesis -- that the expressways destroyed neighborhoods and caused the entire flight to the suburbs and the decline of the cities -- is based on his section on East Tremont and the Cross Bronx. He claimed that East Tremont had held off blight
-- that white flight had been stopped right below it. Only when the expressway went through did white flight accelerate.
Caro also failed to point out that most of the whites living in East Tremont just before the Cross Bronx came through were in late middle age or elderly. The younger people moving into the 'hood even before the construction began were almost entirely minority. In short, East Tremont was already going through major demographic changes that would have made it a minority area before long.
Caro's entire thesis -- that the expressways destroyed neighborhoods and caused the entire flight to the suburbs and the decline of the cities -- is based on his section on East Tremont and the Cross Bronx. He claimed that East Tremont had held off blight-- that white flight had been stopped right below it. Only when the expressway went through did white flight accelerate.
Whoa, Larry! That's a wild overstatement of Caro's thesis. If you read the book (which is more nuanced than the portion of the documentary dealing with Moses), Caro very openly says that New York needed modern, arterial highways. Before Moses came along, none was built. After Moses fell from power, (almost) none was built.
What Caro criticizes are the heavy-handed, contemptuous methods Moses used. For example, he could have easily built the LIE and provided room along the right of way for future mass transit. Moses refused, because he had an irrational dislike for mass transit. Can you tell me why he couldn't have satisfied the desires of city dwellers for a car and a yard in the 'burbs and also satisfied their future need for mass transit?
I'm a little surprised that you and Peter are so quick to defend Moses (maybe you think that, because he gets grief from knee-jerk lefties, he must be a hale fellow). You two are usually the most thoughtful libertarian-ish contributors to this board, and Moses was a libertarian's nightmare of big-government planning run amok.
I'm a little surprised that you and Peter are so quick to defend Moses (maybe you think that, because he gets grief from knee-jerk lefties, he must be a hale fellow). You two are usually the most thoughtful libertarian-ish contributors to this board, and Moses was a libertarian's nightmare of big-government planning run amok.
It's not really a political thing ... what I admire about Moses was the simple fact that he got things done. He was a doer, not a talker, in other words the sort of person who's in very short supply today.
It's not really a political thing ... what I admire about Moses was the simple fact that he got things done. He was a doer, not a talker, in other words the sort of person who's in very short supply today.
Yes, he really got things done. Thanks to his arrogance, the Dodgers left Brooklyn....
did you get your name from the Godzilla movie?
I got question relating to Moses. He thought that trains and trucks were obsolete. If he was aganist trains, as well as trucks (someone pointed out here that LIC bridges were too low for them), how exactly did he expect goods to be transported?
I got question relating to Moses. He thought that trains and trucks were obsolete. If he was aganist trains, as well as trucks (someone pointed out here that LIC bridges were too low for them), how exactly did he expect goods to be transported?
Moses had nothing against trucks. He built some cars-only parkways on Long Island, but he wasn't the first to come up with that idea. The parkways were aimed mainly at pleasure travelers and new suburban residents, with trucks expected to use other routes.
Some of the confusion may result from the fact that there are overpasses on the Meadowbrook Parkway which prevent buses from using it to get to Jones Beach State Park. It has been claimed that this was a deliberate decision on Moses' part, designed to keep bus-riding riff raff off the beaches. Whether this is true or not is anyone's guess, but it's worth noting that buses can use other, albeit less direct routes to access the beaches.
Wish I knew it was on ... I would have taped it for sure!
--Mark
Or, you can buy it at Amazon.com for $89.88.
Or you can see/tape it Saturday, October 13 at 9AM or 6PM (according to Thirteen Magazine).
Now we're talking! Thanks for this "station break" :)
--Mark
Actually, the woman you referred to was lobbying against an expressway that would run through Greenwich Village, SoHo, etc.
Her name was Jane Jacobs.
And, apparently, she had trouble thinking long term and seeing the big picture.
- Lyle Goldman
Why? In that the big picture had to involve a destructive expressway and replacing the buildings of the Lower West Side, the Cast Iron District and Greenwich Village (now known as TriBeCa, SoHo, and Greenwich Village) with horrible Co-op city style freakshows? Ever walked through the Lower East Side near the Williamsburg Bridge?
I watched the enite film when it first premiered on PBS in November 1999. Stretching from the founding days of the city to the beginning of the Depression and the construction of the Empire State Building, two more episodes were added for the Depression and WWII years and this, the Moses/Modern era.
I was very happy to catch it last night. Despite it's disclaimers, I found the footage they used several times of the construction of the WTC quite heartbreaking.
I then realized that out of all this tragedy and horror, a new chapter was being written in the city's storied history and that great things seem to happen after bad things happen in New York.
Of course, I didn't appreciate Robert A.M. Stern's exasperation that one considered location for the U.N. was my hometown of Philly.
What's so bad about us?:)
I didn't know there were two new episodes. On what nights are the new ones airing?
Mark
"Check your local listings."
Here in Boston, the series has been running at 9pm on Channel 2 (WGBH-TV), and repeated three times during the week on Channel 44 (WGBX-TV). Last night was episode 6; next week is episode 7.
Nothing's all that bad about Philly... it's just that nothing's all that good either :-)
Seriously, be thankful you don't have the U.N. in Philadelphia... one less bad thing for you to worry about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The segment wrapped up with the story of the woman (I can't remember her name) who wrote a book about re-thinking "modernism" and urban planning to include efforts to preserve and rennovate, rather than destroy. She led the fight against the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would have run on 30th Street (I presume between the Lincoln and Queens Midtown tunnels), and won. Considering what she was up against, it seems like a miracle she could thwart Mr. Automobile (ironic that the man couldn't drive!).
I believe that book is The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs. If I'm wrong, it's still a good read.
For a rather one-sided treatment of Robert Moses, I suggest The Power Broker by Robert Caro. Take this book with a grain of salt- as far as biographies go, Caro certainly has an agenda to pursue, and seemed to be willing to bend the truth a bit to suit some of his more damning accusations of Moses.
A perfect example of this is the treatment on building the Henry Hudson Parkway. While the section in the more middle-class upper west side was built at the edge of the river flanked by a ribbon park of his creation, the highway section through Harlem is claimed to have been built as a viaduct because of some racist agenda on his part. Caro neglects to mention that this viaduct was built west of an existing viaduct (for Riverside Drive) built many decades before. Additionally, claim that he made the overpasses on the Meadowbrook Parkway intentionally low so minorities could not ride buses to Jones Beach is a stretch, when his chief engineer had stated that they were built intentionally low to save on materials costs. Incidentially, buses can and do go to Jones Beach anyway. Not sure when they started bus service there, but I'm sure the roads supporting this bus service were there all along.
Yes, Moses was a monster at times. His anti-transit legacy is one we've been forced to live with in the years since his fall from power- just look at the Airtrain fiasco. (For minimal investment when the Van Wyck was built, a subway could have been run down the median, but Moses was notoriously anti-transit) However, don't take Caro's word for gospel- Caro has an agenda that is a product of the time when the book was written in the early 70's. Regardless, it is a fascinating insight into the world of Robert Moses. The amount of power this man wielded was staggering- there will never be another like him (though, the argument can be made lamenting this assertion).
That's your cue, folks. Argue away. :)
Strange as it may seem now, Robert Moses was considered a major asset for New York during his first 30-35 years in state and city government. It was only in the final 10-12 years that public opinion started turning sharply against him, and his image has yet to resover from that.
The birth of the New Deal-government projects system in the United States, which Franklin Roosevelt gets credit for, really sprang up in New York during the term of his predacessor, Al Smith, with Robert Moses as the architect in charge of turning Smith's ideas into reality. Smith later turned against FDR and the New Deal, while Moses and Roosevelt never really got along, but anyone looking at Moses' career has got to admit his efforts at least up to his 1934 run for governor were mostly beneficial to both New York City and New York State. Moses was the prototype of today's grant writer, and since he had basically written the rules on how to write the grants, he knew the ins and outs better than anyone and was able to get the city and state more than its proportional share of federal aid after tyhe NRA, CCC and other federal programs were formed during the depression (in part because FDR liked LaGuardia at the time more than he hated Moses).
After he was rejected by the voters in favor of Herbert H. Lehman in '34 (not a good year to be running as a Republican anywhere), Moses did turn more towards consolidating power in unelected positions, such as the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority and NYS Power Authority.
To give him the benefit of the doubt in the period when his first roads were built between 1930-1950, it really was believed back then that you could build a Southern State, Grand Central or Taconic Parkway and people from the city would just drive out there to visit the countryside, and not actually think about moving there and commuting back into New York five days a week. Of course, there was also some self-aggrandizement in there -- Moses didn't just disdain subways, he hated vehicular tunnels as well because no one could see those things even though they were just as efficent as a bridge.
But it wasn't until the 1950s that his consolidation of power and arrogance really started to turn a lot of New Yorkers against him. not so much because of his plans for highways everywhere, but due to his Tavern on the Green/Casino double-standard and the Joseph Papp/Shakespear battle in Central Park. Stuff like that made rich Manhattanites sit up and take notice, and that was a major strategic error, since they also had power bases.
After that came the problems with the 1964-65 New York World's Fair (I thought it was great, but the bondholders didn't), and the combination softened him up for the final takedown by Rockefeller in 1968, though Caro was right about him chewing up and spitting out John Lindsey in his attempt to remove Moses' power in 1966.
In short, Moses first 20 years (1918-1938) were more good than bad, and his last 30 years (1938-1968) were more bad than good.
Oh, right. The proposed 30th Street elevated expressway was a different project than the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which was the one through The Village and Soho, which she defeated. Both were bad ideas that thankfully never came to fruition.
I've been watching the entire series, week-by-week, here on WGBH-TV/PBS in Boston. It's an incredible story; and incredible production.
If you would like a videotape of the entire seven-part, 14-hour series, it can be obtained at the PBS Web site. But it will cost you a $100 donation on tape; $139 on DVD.
You know, I watched the series the first time it aired on PBS. I liked it so much, I bought the VHS box set. As I watched last night's episode, I sat there thinking that I didn't remember all this stuff about Robert Moses the first time. Well, I was right!
I'm a little miffed that they went and added 2 new episodes, which I'll have to either purchase individually, which I'm not sure is possible, or break down and buy the new 7-cassette box set, thereby duplicating 5/7ths of my previous purchase. Grrrrrr.
What irks me the most is that it's not available on DVD. Same with Ken Burns' Baseball or Civil War documentaries. I simply refuse to buy tapes anymore, especially considering that I don't trust any magnetic medium's shelf life.
I found this DVD version on amazon.com. From what I can tell, it's what you're looking for. I'm considering buying it to add to my small but growing DVD collection. Looks like the extra features might be worth it. I usually don't buy a DVD unless there are "extras" which justify the "extra" cost. I especially like directors' commentaries.
No way! That's pretty sweet. I stand corrected. Baseball and New York are avalable on DVD. I now know what to ask the fiance for x-mas! :)
Personally, I buy DVDs because they're more durable. They cost a couple of bucks more, but I can watch them over and over again without worrying about them getting worn out and losing quality.
Good news, Pete. They sell the last two episodes for $30 (together).
Thanks for the info. Haven't had much time to investigate the sit. since it's unusually busy here today. Only time to rudimenarily peruse PBS.org and amazon.com. Glad to hear the news, though.
They do offer the extra 2-episodes alone on tape. It costs $30. It isn't one of those flagrantly expensive pledge drive tapes, this set is actually decently priced and worth the cost, which is what PBS should be doing.
I should also mention that extra episodes were always in the works. They didn't mention it except on the website though, and the original plan was for 6 episodes, not 7.
Robert Moses was a visionary, and he got a lot of good things done. Sure his methods weren't perfect, and he could have been a little more pro-transit, but let's face it. Highways are just as important as subways. I actually wish that he had gotten even more highways built. Now, unfortunately, practically nothing new is being built in the city, neither highways nor subway lines (yes, I know there are some subway lines being built, but it's not like it once was). I believe it's mostly because of rich politicians. Take Staten Island Borough President What's-his-name. Rather than fighting to get some long-planned and long-awaited highways built, he wants to obliterate their last glimmer of hope. I know most people here prefer subways to highways, but I seriously doubt anyone here would complain if the Korean Way Veterans Parkway were connected to the Staten Island Expressway, as it should have been a long, long time ago. But I guess that's another story.
By the way, I don't think a highway called the Lower Manhattan Expressway was to be built on 30th Street. The Lower Manhattan Expressway was to connect the Holland Tunnel with the Williamsburg Bridge. I believe it was the Mid-Manhattan Expressway that was to run along 30th Street between the Lincoln and Midtown Tunnels.
- Lyle Goldman
CORRECTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS WELCOME, especially from Phil Nasadowsky!
I went about NECfanning in an off-the-beaten track manner. On Friday, I departed from Boston on the Amtrak #145, which is an inland route train for Washington heading via Springfield, Mass. Havnig stayed up way too late on the previous night, I was asleep until we got into Worcester, Mass, the limit of the sphere of operation of MBTA's Commuter Rail service. I have always felt that MBTA should at least extend one train a day to Springfield just so that passengers may MU-hop from New York to Boston via the Inland Route – by using Amtrak's connecting train that runs out of New Haven, and changing at Springfield for the MBTA.
Worcester is a very interesting town. If I remember correctly, the CSX right of way (ex-Boston & Albany) coming into town Westbound is high up on some viaduct, resulting in spectacular views of the townscape. The place feels strangly English with train snaking through curves only a stone's throw away from tall building that have grown up next to the railroad. On the East Coast Mainline, approaching Newcastle from the north, a similar scene is seen in the vicinity of Manors. The station itself looks brand new, and from the train it seems the architecture was tastefully done in sandstone or some similar imitation material. (If I'm wrong about this, then I must have been dreaming as we passed through Worcester.) The downside to all this, of course, is that the station has only one platform; the other side of the station is occupied by some CSX freight yard. The problem this causes is obvious -- on the return bound leg, onboard Amtrak #142 (due at Worcester at 20.00), we were held outside the station for 15 minutes because the "stupid a** dispatcher" (in the words of the Conductor) had let the 20.15 MBTA Commuter train into the platform early. "It must be a new guy." Of course, the other explanation would be that the #142 runs so chronically late that allowing the MBTA train in first usually works -- however, according to the conductor, the #142 is rarely more than 10 mins late by the time it gets to Worcester.
We passed a short freight train between Framingham, Mass. and Worcester, but I do not recall the consist since I was sleeping. I only remember seeing a few big muscles AC's painted in CSX colours. I remember thinking to myself something to the effect of "another 8,000hp on just a couple boxcars".
As for Worcester Yard itself, it appears to be an intermodal yard. I saw a lot of trailers and COFC equipment hanging around. I don't remember if there were any double-stacks or not, but I don't specifically recall seeing any. CSX has a few facilities on the B&A line -- including a small yard and a wye at Framingham, where a line appears to branch off to serve some auto-related place (I once saw an autorack heading off on that branch), and a yard near I-90 in Brighton (pretty much downtown Boston). It would appear that CSX's intermodal operations only proceed as far east as Worcester, with the shipments going to the docks and other customers by truck.
Going in the Southbound direction, we proceed to Springfield, Mass. Just prior to reaching Springfield, there were some pretty stunning scenery. The words "rural, rustic and romantic" occured to me as we drew by – pity about the continuous welded rail. The B&A follows a river, which is subsequently crossed by the railroad. One could almost mistake the scenery for rural Vermont -- I once saw some very similar scenery when heading north on the Adriondack. There were pools of water (marsh-like) by the side of the RoW, there were unspoilt forest full of trees of all colours, and there were parts where the permanent way was canted in such a way that the entire train leaned towards the river. I thought to myself, "this must be such a maintenance headache" -- but it is also one of the most beautiful journey I had ever taken; the quality of the trip easily surpasses Scotland's West Highland Line. In parts, you were only about a coach width from the water itself, and only some 6' or so above. The experience is nothing short of magical, if you are in the right frame of mind.
At Springfield itself, the railroad topology is somewhat interesting since an overhead road had been built-over the three-leg-fork at Springfield. The Amtrak station is actually situated alongside the ex-B&A line on the east side of the Route of the Vermonter -- which may necessiate a reversal operation if the Vermonter were to call there. We had a slight delay exchanging onto Amtrak property just east of the station -- I have no idea why, since the station is not normally occupied by Amtrak trains. Interestingly, there were one Penn-Central Pullman commuter coach parked outside the station, painted green still with PC lettering intact. In addition, there was a bunch of MHC's coupled to a Heritage Amtrak *coach* (not sleeper) sitting on the other platform, attached to a single Genesis. Judging by the time of the day, I suspect the consist was part of Train #13, "Fast Mail" which would depart for Washington later on the day. The Heritage coach is used presumably as a staff-coach. As far as I know, there are two Amtrak mail trains on the NEC -- both are called "Fast Mail", #12 and #13; The #12 carries passengers and departs from Washington at 3am, whilst train #13 has so far eluded me.
Proceeding southwest from Springfield station, we come to the triple fork. In the distance, you could see the Route of the Lake Shore Limited crawl under various highway overpasses then going over two very tough-looking, cast-iron, NYC-style structures which went over some river. Springfield Tower sits in a desolate state under the highway overpasses and choked between the southwest leg of the wye and the former B&A. As soon as we pass onto the Inland Route proper, we see a purpose-built Amtrak mail center on the left (east) side of the track. It is never short of boxcar activity, and the trucks could directly dock on against the high level platform for efficient transfer. The center looks like it is a success -- obviously only made possible by Amtrak's ownership of the Inland Route as far as Springfield. CSX/Conrail operates freight trains on the Inland Route under trackage rights -- I had witnessed a few of these, and it is indeed fairly busy. However, all traffic appear to be locals serving the not insignificant number of online customers.
We pass through Windsor Locks and Windsor, CT before we reach Hartford, CT. Again this section of the Inland Route is not short of the rural and rustic character -- we would like to walk it someday. Windsor itself is a very English town, as the name suggest. The lampposts are done tastefully in ye olde Englische Victorian style, with street signs to match in cast iron with fancy lettering. In Windsor Locks, the railroad runs alongside
a canal as the name suggest. However, there are no less than 13 (I think!) grade crossings in that town, as a result trains are slowed down to a 25mph crawl. I guess I was kinda disappointed that #145 didn't belt it a bit more through there. I guess the problem of slow railways in Southeast of England has extended itself into towns of English character in the American northeast.
Hartford, CT itself was a big terminal in its days. Unfortunately, the terminal seem to have had better tmies -- half the elevated tracks had been removed, and the platform had temporary wooden fences everywhere giving access to only one platform which handles both up and down trains. To exit, the passengers must climb onto the elevated structure and then descend a bunch of stairs to reach the station hall, which again looks as if it has had better days. Most of the old NYNH&H decorations are still intact (doors, waiting rooms, clock etc) but unfortunately are in a very run-down state. I hope that some historical society does something about it pretty soon because Amtrak looks as if they are ready to replace it with one of those functional, post-Acela style NEC stations, given the amount of "work" they are doing there.
Unfortunately, I can't give any more commentry south of Meriden, CT, since I went to Wesleyan University to see some friends. But all in all, I think that the Amtrak Inland Route is well worth visiting in the fall, not just for a railfan purpose but all serious railfans will sure be thrilled by the prospect of visiting some of the oldest unrestored station infrastructure around and seeing balanced freight and passenger at such key locations as Springfield and Worcester.
--Lexcie
CORRECTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS WELCOME, especially from Phil Nasadowsky!
N-A-S-A-D-O-W-S-K-I :)
It's an I, dude.
The station itself looks brand new, and from the train it seems the architecture was tastefully done in sandstone or some similar imitation material.
IIRC, it's either new or recently restored...
Of course, the other explanation would be that the #142 runs so chronically late that allowing the MBTA train in first usually works -- however, according to the conductor, the #142 is rarely more than 10 mins late by the time it gets to Worcester.
The conductor's a good bullshit artist. I bet the dispatcher isn't a new guy and stuck the MBTA train in first because the Amtrak one is late often enough.
I thought to myself, "this must be such a maintenance headache
Maintenance?!?!? What's that?!?!? They don't call CSX "Chemical Spill eXperts" for nothing...
We had a slight delay exchanging onto Amtrak property just east of the station -- I have no idea why, since the station is not normally occupied by Amtrak trains.
That pesky dispatcher was out to delay you again ;)
Interestingly, there were one Penn-Central Pullman commuter coach parked outside the station, painted green still with PC lettering intact.
And even more interesting, there's a PC coach stuffed down in Penn station in NY that's been sitting there for who knows how long...
However, there are no less than 13 (I think!) grade crossings in that town, as a result trains are slowed down to a 25mph crawl. I guess I was kinda disappointed that #145 didn't belt it a bit more through there.
This is recent. I noticed a Sperry car was working the area a few weeks ago, and I noticed a (S) and [R] pair of signs at one crossing I cross a lot, about a week ago. I've seen even GE hauled consists come through there at around 40ish.
Hartford, CT itself was a big terminal in its days. Unfortunately, the terminal seem to have had better tmies -- half the elevated tracks had been removed, and the platform had temporary wooden fences everywhere giving access to only one platform which handles both up and down trains. To exit, the passengers must climb onto the elevated structure and then descend a bunch of stairs to reach the station hall, which again looks as if it has had better days. Most of the old NYNH&H decorations are still intact (doors, waiting rooms, clock etc) but unfortunately are in a very run-down state. I hope that some historical society does something about it pretty soon because Amtrak looks as if they are ready to replace it with one of those functional, post-Acela style NEC stations, given the amount of "work" they are doing there.
The station is owned by the City of Hartford - the old waiting room is used as a small convention center. The new waiting room is a bus station by day and homeless shelter at night. Most traffic is bus there now. Amtrak maintains the platform level, though. Or should I say, doesn't maintain.
Unfortunately, I can't give any more commentry south of Meriden, CT, since I went to Wesleyan University to see some friends.
Hi Mike!!!!
But all in all, I think that the Amtrak Inland Route is well worth visiting in the fall, not just for a railfan purpose but all serious railfans will sure be thrilled by the prospect of visiting some of the oldest unrestored station infrastructure around
Old? Heh. Those stations are new. A good chunk of the LIRR Oyster Bay line stations are around 20 years older than Hartford is. Most are being restored though - Sea Cliff Avenue in particular looks great.
Train 12 was discontinued starting September 30, 2001. It was replaced by Acela Regional 190 which had formerly run about 30-60 minutes earlier than Train 12 from New York to Boston. It now runs all the way from Washington to Boston, leaving DC at 3 AM. It arrives in NYC 3 minutes later than Train 12 did. A shuttle train, number 490, runs to Springfield. Train 12, went to Springfield starting December 11, 2000 but had gone to Boston before that. If one is willing to dig a little deeper in to their wallet, they can take Acela Express 2150 from Washington to Boston, leave 2 hours later, and only arrive in Boston 10 minutes later.
As for Train 13, I don't think that exists and if it does, it doesn't carry passengers. Its not on the September 30 schedule.
Train #13 does indeed exists. It arrived at DC around noon daily. Because Train #13 and #10 only carry mail, both are not in the passenger schedule, but in the employee schedule. Train #10 leaves DC daily after 7 PM.
Chaohwa
So do you know which is the replacement mail train for #12 after September 30, 2001? I presume #490 doesn't carry mail, and the north mail depot is in Springfield...
Lexcie
I think Train #190 is the train replaces Train #12 between Washington, DC and New Haven. As for the section between New Haven and Springfield, I believe there is a new train number on the employee timetable.
I am interested to look at this employee timetable.
Chaohwa
I looked at the schedule of Train #190. The schedule is similar to that of Train #12. Train #190 may carry several mail cars.
I have to look at the employee timetable to look at the details.
Chaohwa
It's a good line to ride. I used to ride it home whenever I could get the bus connections right. I used to go to UConn which is 40 minutes east of Hartford by Bonanaza bus. When only the Arrow bus ran to UConn, I took it all the way to New Haven and took Metro-North or Amtrak to New York, usually M-N. Going back to UConn was always trickier, because if I missed the last Arrow bus, I would have been stranded in New Haven or Hartford.
The Inland Route is a very nice line and the scenery north of Meriden is stunning, especially in the fall. South of Meriden, not so nice with the junkyards, factories and marshes that the line passes through. But I enjoyed every ride I took on it, except for one where my northbound train was forced into a siding to let a southbound train pass. That's just one problem with single-tracking and that's why Amtrak should bring back double-track on this line. Then they can run more frequent service on the line and it can be more competitve with buses and I-91. I would also like to see high platforms at all the stations, especially Hartford and Springfield, so they can cut dwell times at the stations. And they should run DMU/EMU combo trains so they can have through service to NYC, Philly, DC, and possibly Harrisburg (if they through route the Inland Route with Keystone service like I suggested in another post). Maybe a connection to Bradley Airport. Amtrak should be improving this line, not letting it go bad.
The AM LIRR was severely interrupted by a signal problem in and around Sunnyside Yard, resulting in delays up to one hour or more. Of course there is a silver lining to this cloud. The LIRR jerked around at Jamaica Station for over 30 minutes while trying to decide where my train was going to go. First it was to Hunters Point and LIC. Then it was to LIC. Then it was to LIC with a reverse move to Hunters Pt. and finally it was decided just the straight run to LIC. Since there was no way that I was going to get to work on time, I decided to bite the bullet and take the ride along the Montauk branch. It's still the most interesting ride on the LIRR. This AM was especially interesting since a fresh load of R-142s were in the yard, still on the flatcars, as we passed. If you're going to be late, there's nothing like doing some rail-fanning to help pass the time.
I ended up going to Flatbush Avenue, where I found the IRT platforms to be hopelessly overcrowded. There was no way I was going to get on a 1 or 2 anytime soon. I finally took an M to Fulton/BN, changing to an A for West 4th. Not a pleasant morning.
I stayed on at Jamaica despite being told that there would be 45-60 minutes delays. As it turned out, my train (7:05 from Mineola) was only about 25 minutes late into Penn Station.
I stayed on at Jamaica despite being told that there would be 45-60 minutes delays. As it turned out, my train (7:05 from Mineola) was only about 25 minutes late into Penn Station.
I was on the 6:42 dual-mode from Patchogue, which is supposed to go directly to Penn, but today terminated at Jamaica. By the time we got to Jamaica at about 8:20, which is more than 20 minutes behind schedule, the PA was announcing "subtantial" delays into Penn. I figured that vagueness of that sort wasn't likely to be good and went for the next Flatbush Avenue train. It looks like thousands of other commuters had the same idea.
Police and TA workers were letting people onto the subway for free at Flatbush. Naturally, I didn't see that until after I swiped my pay-per-ride MC.
[Police and TA workers were letting people onto the subway for free at Flatbush. Naturally, I didn't see that until after I swiped my pay-per-ride MC. ]
As we approached Jamaica, they announced on my train that LIRR tickets would be accepted by the Subway
In general, if there is a problem with the LIRR to Penn, they usually allow free passage into the subways if you show them your ticket.
-- Kirk
But if there is a problem with the subway, there is no such arrangement. Unfair!
Do you have any idea of what the nature of the "signal problem" was that wrecked the entire city operation of the LIRR?
In these "troubled times" I wonder about stuff like this. Twenty years ago I would have been listening for reports of men in black cloaks and slouch hats handing around the interlocking with Soviwet-made cameras. :-)
Do you have any idea of what the nature of the "signal problem" was that wrecked the entire city operation of the LIRR?
In these "troubled times" I wonder about stuff like this.
Remember that you're talking about the Long Island Rotten Road. Many things could have caused the huge delays:
A high pollen count in Davenport, Iowa.
Slight irregularities in the orbit of one of Neptune's moons.
Declining prices for tea futures in the Kuala Lumpur futures exchange.
The premature death of Abraham Lincoln's younger son.
You get the idea.
Amtrak knuckle heads doing work hit catenary wire with steel pole and blew up the signals at 3am. Once again Amtrak boneheads mess up.
Amtrak knuckle heads doing work hit catenary wire with steel pole and blew up the signals at 3am. Once again Amtrak boneheads mess up.
Sigh ... how typical.
No doubt part of the government's plan to get more people back to flying on the airlines again :-)
No doubt part of the government's plan to get more people back to flying on the airlines again :-)
Which, by the way, seems to be working. Slowly but surely, airline passenger counts have been increasing over the last week or so. I figured that most of the "I'll never fly again" talk was just that, talk.
>>> I figured that most of the "I'll never fly again" talk was just that, talk. <<<
And that means forget about any upgrading of the nations railways.
Tom
We need the LIRR to GCT connection more than ever!
One thing about the TA vs the LIRR - you rarely if ever see the kind of indecisiveness in making re-routes on the TA. My train arrived at Jamaica at 7:07AM and they debated, changed, re-routed, and opened & closed the doors so many times, we got to LIC after 8:00 AM.
By the way: Despite how late we were, that didn't stop the LIRR crews from stopping the train before entering LIC yard and climb off the train, one by one, so they wouldn't have to walk a few hundred feet. After all - what the hell. We were already late.
I was passing through Jamaica about this time, listening on my scanner and I heard your engineer or conductor arguing with 204 about doing a reverse move once they got to LIC to Hunters Point. Last I heard they were going to allow it, but I guess they changed their mind.
-- Kirk
and whats wrong with warsaw pact cameras, anyways? =)
My train was terminated at Jamaica. I decided to bail on the LIRR and take the subway -- but the crowds trying to get down into the E/J station were huge as well. I hoofed it the 6 blocks up Sutphin to Hillside for the F train and made it into work only about 15 minutes behind schedule.
One of my colleagues stuck with the LIRR into Penn and arrived almost 2 hours later than planned. Was it really that bad, or was he just one of the very unlucky?
CG
Which train was this that went via the old Montauk line, like what SCHEDULED time out of Jamaica, do you know? Or was it just a spontaneous decision by the tower. Where did you see these R142s?
The train was #2735. It leaves Jamaica every AM from #5 track at 7:11 AM. Usually it goes by the Main Line to Hunters Point and then to LIC. This AM it was re-routed.
the r142s were at fresh pond, no?
speaking of freight, spotted the p&w run up towards ct with 5 units (2 cabless ex BNs, just painted) and a long string of graffiti-riffic ballast cars in drag past the BQE construction in woodside. I thought they came south on a tuesday and then north with empties on fridays? perhaps it was just one o' the last (if not the...) run of the season.
The brown P & Ws were in the yard too.
(Since there was no way that I was going to get to work on time, I decided to bite the bullet and take the ride along the Montauk branch.)
The Long Is City Branch just isn't the same without the old diesels making all the old stations without platforms. It was like being on the Hooterville Cannonball.
Yup but the ride to Pixley can still be fun.
So, was it the LIRR's signal system that screwed up, or was it a certain other "railroad" (I use that term really loosely) around Sunnyside who's signal system died *again*??
It would seem that SLAMTRAK dunnit again. Scattered 10-15 minute delays persisted into the PM rush hour.
"jerked around at Jamaica station for over 30 minutes".
It's so funny to hear you talking in that tone. How often are there delays like this on the LIRR? Once a year? And the one little time you have a delay, all of a sudden you're "jerked around".
People on the Queens Blvd corridor deal with garbage EVERY WEEKEND. EVERY RUSH HOUR.
I always knew that you were one of these Long Island guys who took the LIRR to the city everyday, which is why you are so insensitive to the horrors experienced by those who relay on the subways to get to/from the boroughts to Manhattan.
Tell me. When you had trouble at Jamaica, why didn't you take the 'reliable' Queens Blvd line that I have been telling you and everyone about for nearly one year? Because you know it's every bit as bad as I've been saying all along.
Truth is, I'm happy for you. I'm glad you live on Long Island, and you can take a comfortable train to and from work. I'm glad you're in a cushy seat on the LIRR, while I'm on a cattle car in Queens with some undesirable breathing down my neck, or crushing me against a pole.
It's just so interesting to see you in the role of the disgruntled passenger, who seems somewhat less than impressed with "jerked around" service today.
I see what you're saying, but lighten up man. Nothing is stopping you from going to Jamaica Center, paying around 2 bucks or somethin and taking a train from Jamaica to LIC, Hunterspoint, Flatbush or Penn Station. You make a valid point though.
2 bucks eh?
From Jamaica to NYC costs $5.50 peak and $3.75 off peak.
I used the term "Jerked Around" for the reason stated. It seems to me that any decision that takes 30 minutes to make, in that situation, negates the time saved by a correct one or the time that would be lost by a bad one.
Once again, however, we come to the issue of credibility. I can and do document specific incidents when they occur. I gave a train #, a destination and specific times. I cited one example where specific people made a poor choice or more appropriately took too long to make any choice. You - on the other hand - are once again painting in vague and broad generalities. Every weekend? Every rushhour? Please do not insult our intelligence. Cite one specific example where a specific train, at a specific time was held in place for 30 minutes while management tried to decide where to send it. I'm talking about indecision causing the delay, not a derailment or collision etc. Of course you cannot do it because the TA does not work that way.
As for not taking the Queens Blvd line, I thought I had explained that. However, despite the odd chance that you might be able to find your way back to the original post, let me make it easy for you. I said that I opted to do some railfanning since the opportunity presented itself. Besides, I do not punch a time clock.
Now, as for your idiotic statement, "I always knew that you were one of these Long Island guys who took the LIRR to the city everyday, which is why you are so insensitive to the horrors experienced by those who relay on the subways to get to/from the boroughts to Manhattan"
What the hell do you think I do when I get to the city? I take the A train or the D train or the #4 train uptown. Today when I got off at LIC, I didn't have my driver waiting for me. I walked about a half mile to Vernon-Jackson on the #7 and took it to grand central where I transferred for the #4.
As for having some undesirable breathing on your neck, if you don't like it, do what I did. Spend in excess of $200,000 for a suburban home. Spend upwards of $7,000 per year in property taxes. Commute 2 hours in each direction, each day in luxury on the LIRR. You have got some strange views of life, young man.....
What can I say to one of my favorite subtalkers?
You put those lowlife liberals in their place when they came on this board to attack the US after the attacks of Sept 11.
You had the guts to give us a very accurate description of Dinkins, and all he did to this city.
Like I said, I just thought it was funny to see you in the role of disgruntled passenger, questioning the decisions of those who you rely on to get you to work everyday.
p.s.- Half mile to Vernon-Jackson?
What can I say. I wasn't disgruntled about the delay. I was upset by poor supervision. One thing about me, I call it the way I see it. I'd be as angry if it were a TA manager - and just as out-spoken.
"You put those lowlife liberals in their place when they came on this board to attack the US after the attacks of Sept 11."
By the way, I had not intended to mention this but as long as you raised the issue; It would seem that I was correct about one of them. He seems to have crawled back under the rock.
What rock was that?
Just like Cinderella's ugly sisters, you seem to continually want to try on shoes meant for someone elses feet.
Just curious. 'nuff said.
Ooooooooooooo. Great analogy. ;-)
It seems to me that any decision that takes 30 minutes to make, in that situation, negates the time saved by a correct one or the time that would be lost by a bad one.
What would you consider a proper "reaction" time for such situations?
I don't know that there is some exact formula to quote but this is my thinking. LIRR was announcing delays of up to 60 minutes through the affected area. Via the Montauk branch, time to LIC is roughly 30 minutes. Hence, add that time to the 30 minutes sitting on 5 track in Jamaica and you have your 60 minutes. In the meantime, you've had people get on and off the train up to 4 times and have conveyed the message that you are not fully in control.
If on the other hand, you sent the train via the Main Line - the worst that would have happened is it would have arrived an hour late. On the other hand, because it was not using one of the 4 East River Tubes, the delay would have been likely much less protracted. The point is once you wait and second guess yourself for 30 minutes, you've already put yourself in the hole for a half hour even if you made the right choice.
I would have opted to make a choice and live with the consequences. In reality, most people on that train go to Hunters Pt. to connect withthe #7 train. I would have put them all on a Penn Station Bound train stopping at Woodside for the #7 connection. I would have sent the actual train over the Montauk Branch to LIC (Which they did) because that's where the equipment is supposed to end up. The difference is, I had this in my mind before we passed Valley Stream. Of course, I had only one train on my mind.
A total washout for trains to and from Penn Station or even through Harold happens about twice a year. I'd have assumed that the LIRR operations people would have thought of a contingency plan to put in place. I'd assume that holding trains at Jamaica for 30 minutes, while doling out disinformation should not be part of the contingency plan. So, in this case shouldn't there be a fairly quick transition to the contingency plan?
This is the second time in about a month that the LIRR has not been able to handle an emergency in stride. Remember the Syosset derailment? One shudders to think how the LIRR would be able to handle a real emergency. How about a total power failure? The TA tried that during an evening rush hour some 35 years ago. I wonder how they would react today?
I have the Manhattan Bridge Flip Plan. There is a printed contingency plan for most eventualities.
Two things;
1) Don't we wish the "K" train using the Essex St Cutoff was still running.
2) Single 60 ft. cars sure look better Now for expanded service on the "E"F" and "J" and Possible "K"
3) I've told you a million times, "Don't Exagerate!"
Ten percent and twelve and a half percent increases with out stretching platforms.
If not for day to day rush hour, at least for emergency contingencies.
avid
Can the letter "K" even be used? Isn't it politically incorrect? I seem to remember a controversy that arose a few years ago surrounding the circled "K" found on milk containers, and other products found in food stores.
Some "activists" said it was a subliminal message that was being sent by the KKK, in order to recruit new members. Naturally, this picked up some momentum an explanation of the "K" sought.
It turned out that the "K" stood for Kosher.
Trust me, the city would use another letter.
Rubbish!
the "K" was used in the past for trains out of Canarsie to 57th and 6th Ave.
avid
do u guys think that whenever the B Division pick starts the E runs will include trips to 179?
Also what happens to those E trains during the middle of the day that leave Jamaica Center saying not in service? Does the Motorman take it to Jamaica yard and go to lunch or something?
do u guys think that whenever the B Division pick starts the E runs will include trips to 179?
What is a "B division pick"?
And why would the E ever go to 179th St. with the F? Who's going to take care of Jamaica Center on the Queens Blvd. Line?
Railfan Pete
And why answer questions with questions? Wait for someone who knows the answer to post...the answer!
Now, as to THE ANSWERS to the questions that were posted BY THE ORIGINAL POSTER:
The plan, when the V starts, is to run some E service to/from 179th Street to avoid congestion at Jamaica Center.
As for out-of-service E trains at Jamaica Center in the middle of the day, I'd wager they're there more like 9-10 AM (after the AM rush) and layup either on the Queens Boulevard Line in the area of Union Turnpike or in Jamaica Yard.
David
>>What is a "B division pick"?<<
What does it sound like? People who work the B division pick runs. People who work the A division pick jobs. Hell, almost every TA job (up to somewhere in middle management) is a pick. You get preference based on senority.
>>And why would the E ever go to 179th St. with the F? Who's going to take care of Jamaica Center on the Queens Blvd. Line?<<
And why the hell would the "A" go to rockaway Park?!?!? Because it's only 5 peak direction A trains going to rock. pk. Same deal with E to 179th.
In RTO, Train Operators and Conductors get to pick whatever jobs, tours and days off that are available to them every 6 months. Train Service Supervisors and all Dispatchers go through what is called a "preference pick" every 12-18 months. They do not have the same freedoms to select assignments and days off that T/O's and C/R's have, but they have a little leeway to select something that they want.
Deputy Superintendents and above have their assignments, hours and days off assigned. They have no say as to what they get. That's why it helps to either:
1) Be good friends with your boss who makes up your schedule
2) Work really hard and make your presence known
3) Kiss a lot of a**
I found out that I do pick up jobs in the yard or switching from the board but certain dispatchers reroute them to their buds. What a surprise.
>>>>>>>>do u guys think that whenever the B Division pick starts the E runs will include trips to 179?
Guaranteed. The TA has listed runs on the E to 179 St for the AM and PM rush. I believe it's around 4 trains to Manhattan on the AM and 4 trains to 179 St on the PM.
>>>>>>>>Also what happens to those E trains during the middle of the day that leave Jamaica Center saying not in service? Does the Motorman take it to Jamaica yard and go to lunch or something?
Those T/O's are switchmen. They take the train to Jamaica Yard and then perform duties within the Yard. Later, they bring out different trains for the PM rush.
Lots of times those E trains going to the yard after the AM rush are on their way to the car wash, then they'll come right back and lay up north of Parsons/Archer for PM service.
Guaranteed. The TA has listed runs on the E to 179 St for the AM and PM rush. I believe it's around 4 trains to Manhattan on the AM and 4 trains to 179 St on the PM.
I have a friend who lives in Bellerose and is very upset by the upcoming 63rd st. service changes--this will make his day. Is there any chance you could post the schedule? I'd really appreciate it.
Also, will these trains run express or local on Hillside Ave?
Dan
I'm guessing since these are to reduce congestion, express, but I really don't know. I do not work for the TA nor do I have any connections. It would be very inefficient to run these trains to 179 to avoid congestion at Parsons-Archer, only to cause more on Hillside.
That's just my opinion...
It would be very inefficient to run these trains to 179 to avoid congestion at Parsons-Archer, only to cause more on Hillside.
I think Hillside/179th has more turnarround capacity (and four tracks instead of two.) It handled both the (E) and (F) for many years.
:-) Andrew
The F ran express during rush hours. Off hours, it isn't such a big deal since trains are less frequent.
When the V is implemented, the F:E ratio changes in the E's favor, and 3 or 4 E's get rerouted to 179th, should they be distinguished by a Diamond-E ? (not that they have that on their roll signs).
It would be far simpler to use R-46s for those consists. The 179th St terminal for the E is already programmed into the SCUs.
"A" trains headed for Rockaway Pk. do not use diamonds, so don't hold your breath.
This is no congestion to Hillside - it runs at 35% of capacity.
When the F:E ratio changes from 18:12 to 15:15 per hour, the number of trains serving each terminus will remain constant by diverting 3 E's per hour to 179th. Archer can't handle it.
There is an additional four-track lower level beyond 179th St.
Give me a day or two and I'll post the schedules.
I have two questions about the 1/9 bridge over the Harlem River.
1) According to this website, this is a two level drawbridge with the trains on the upper level and Broadway on the lower level. Is this bridge ever raised to let boats go by? If so, about how often?
2) How many lanes does Broadway have when it crosses this bridge?
David
As someone who rides the 1/9 accross the bridge several times a day, I may be able to provide some info:
1) I have never seen the bridge raised, but I'm sure they must atleast test it from time to time. Currently they are doing a major re-painting job on the bridge (I think they are removing old lead paint as the bridge is wrapped in plastic and there are very large vacuum trucks parked on the bridge with tubes leading to the wrapped sections.
2) Broadway is normally (when the construction vehicles related to the painting are not there) 2 lanes in each direction.
Piggo/Bill
Thanks for this info,
David
Broadway is actually 3 lanes in each direction over the bridge.
Is it a Swing Bridge? or a lift Bridge?
It's a lift bridge. In answer to the original query, yes it does occasionally get lifted for boat traffic. It also gets lifted about every two months or so to check the mechanism. When this happens, Transit tries to have a train standing near by on M Track, because it sometimes does not completely close. In those cases, they roll the train onto the bridge very slowly and use the extra weight to force it into place.
Ya know? The 225th Street bridge has never worked right since the day they installed it? The old one it replaced may have been natty, but it worked. :)
How long has it been taking you to go over the bridge now that the 50 Roadblock is in place? I started taking my motorcycle to work as it took me 20 minutes to negotiate traffic to the span, and my conductor reported delays up to an hour on the various bronx surface routes beginning the 12th.
The bridge rises each time a big rig boat comes
a'callin.... and there are drills every so often
which stop traffic, lower gates, and raise bridge.
A preeeeeeeety neat sight to see from 1/9 platform.
There's an interesting history to this bridge. Approximately 1895 a new swing bridge was constructed on the site of the current bridge. In 1906, when the new IRT subway was extended to 242nd Street, there was no way to accommodate the elevated tracks on then eleven year old bridge. Rather than demolish it, it was floated downstream about a mile to become the University Heights Bridge, connecting 207th Street to Fordham Road. The current bridge at that location is a recent rebuild of the old 1895 bridge using the original supports on either side of the Harlem River. A new double deck swing bridge was built in 1906 as a "new" Broadway Bridge. This one lasted until 1962 when the current span was constructed. Interestingly, the 1962 bridge's roadway structure (not towers) was floated into place, just like the 1906 structure was installed. The towers were constructed later.
Yep ... that's correct ... only problem with the "new" bridge is that somewhere, somehow, somebody's tape measure hadn't reached calibration temperature when it was used. That puppy goes up, it does not come DOWN. Fireboats had to be called out often in the summertime to close it and the story about having to roll a train on it isn't a joke. And for all the "re-fits" that have been done since '62, seems none of them really did the trick.
Have they ever considered taking a cutting torch and cutting an inch off each end of the lift section?
Ya think? Heh. So much for logic, eh?
I'm sure there are valid reasons why that wasn't an option. But it would be humorous if it WAS easily done and nobody though of it. But considering how much all those hose-downs, parking a train by it and all the other maneuvers required, there must have been a huge "no way" to the idea, just don't know what the reason was.
Maybe they were afraid someone would put the torch to the wrong spot and, WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!
How long 1 service was disrupted
My recollection is: no more than a week. The job was rushed, and the work went on "around the clock" to minimize disruption. Special buses were used to carry customers from 207th Street to 225th Street using the University Heights Bridge (207-Fordham Road).
So If I'm correct the Bridge should be replaced by 2016
Service was only disrupted on the #1 for 3 days. This was over the Christmas holiday of 1960. NOT 1962! There were other disruptions on weekends lasting into Aug. of 1963. It was not until the fall of 1964 that the bridge was lifted.
Andy ... good info.
Here's some additional info on the Broadway Bridge, including its history, vital stats and a link to pictures of the previous bridge being dismantled in 1960.
The Broadway Bridge, from Steve Anderson's nycroads.com web site.
--Mark
I wake up this morning, and listen on the radio to the reported signaling problems on the LIRR outside Sunnyside, and figure "well, too bad for them." That is, until I make it to the Parkchester train station and missed a southbound express by only 3 minutes (I was outside the station across the street when the train pulled in.) It was 8:28 then. I figure to do a written observation of the surrounding environment and what's happening in it on a notepad (for English class), while I'm waiting for the next train.
That became my only evidence for being late for my 9:30 class. Because for some reason, there were a whole bunch of uptown trains coming and no downtown ones. There was a local, made up of redbirds, but Westchester Master sent it to the yard, which meant that the first train that came in was a) going local, and b) to get sacked with all the passengers. I waited, and behind it was the express, which dusted the other train off at around Elder. But by the time I get to 125th, I have only 20 mins to get to class.
My question: Was there a computer virus, myabe the WTC one, in the LIRR signal system, that spread to the Lex that fouled up the line this morning?
According to the Radio transmissions, an R-142 lost power in the Clark St. Tube southbound.
Maybe the same people who called in bomb scares got into some of the wayside towers.
either that or the pelham line tower wanted you
to do that homework before boarding...:)
I have some questions about subway related tours and other events. I did not make it to the recent tour of the 207th Street Shop, and I was wondering if there will be another tour like this soon. Have there been any tours of this facility in the past? I remember reading, and seeing pictures of, tours of the Westchester Yard and the Coney Island Yard. Are these tours run by the transit museum or another group? Does anyone know if there will be any tours like this next year? Also, I read about two walking tours, I think of subway architecture, on the Transit Museum website. I was not able to go to these tours either (I was in NYC in August, so I missed both by a month). Is this kind of tour held often? Thanks in advance for any info.
David
NYD-ERA had planned a tour of the Newark City Subway and the Newark Airport monorail for the Thanksgiving Day weekend. However, given the recent terrorist acts, we don't think the Port Authority will give us permission to tour the Monorail facilities, or that NJ Transit will let us into the new Newark City Subway shop. Of course, there's no harm in our asking, right? :-)
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Does the NYD-ERA have a website?
Unfortunately, neither NYD, nor its parent, ERA, has a website. I don't have the time or the artistic ability to do one, and though loads of people have volunteered to set one up for us, nobody has done it, and there are questions as to who would maintain it if one were set up. We have a commitment from one of our members for webspace, but nothing with which to fill it.
This question comes up every few months here on the board. I wish I had a more positive answer.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
David - contact me via email. I may be able to arrange for some assistance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Check this site's coming events section for this type of thing.
You'll see notices of ERA, Transit Museum & private field trips.
BTW, The ERA had a trip to Branford's Autumn in NY this past Sat.
Also look for a M-N Croton-Harmon "Open House" this month.
And, when you are planning a visit to the City try to arrange it when the UTC or ERA have their monthly meetings in Manhattan.
Mr t
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Wow! Great shots!! Thanks trevor!
Chuck Greene
Nice pix! I like the third one the most.
Very nice
When did you take them?
Robert
These were taken Sunday evening. Thank You All!
Trevor Logan
I wish I can do that better, nice job Trevor!
You Can! Just practice, practice, practice! And have the eye, compose your photos before you taken then, don't just aim and shoot!
Trevor Logan
All three suitable for the 2003 calendar. Nice!
Does anyone know if, with the expansion plans for stations shared by red and brown lines, there has been any attempt to expand subway (rather than elevated service) from south of Armitage to north of Addison? Although this would not alleviate the need for longer stations (which, for obvious reasons, affects some residents), it would seem that, with the installation of elevators for ADA compatibility, now would be the time to plan for multilevel stations (at Belmont and Fullerton) for transfers between subway (red line) and elevated (brown/purple lines).
The argument for this is that it would eliminate the crossing of brown and red line trains between Belmont and Addison (red line) or Southport (brown line) stations. I say argument, but I don't know that anyone has or will make a case for such a proposal. To me, it seems not necessary per se, but at least inevitable, as a way of reducing crossings between busy rush-hour trains. One side effect in neighbors' favor would be that subways are less disruptive, with both less noise and less invasion of privacy--and it is the busier line that could be continued as a subway.
In general, it seems that subway expansion is a viable option for establishment of express service, and, at least with regard to the blue line to O'Hare, there has of late been an interest in such service. In part, I lobby for it despite the expense, because in the Chicago system the subways consistently seem to operate at higher speeds than both the elevated and expressway-median portions of the system.
There is no plan for the subway proposal you mention. The simpler and far less costly option of building a flying junction at Clark Junction (where the Brown Line branches off just south of Addison) would alleviate the same bottleneck and would not require construction of a subway.
The current schemes for expanding the CTA rail system are as follows, in order of what's likely to get done first:
Extending the Orange Line south to Ford City from Midway (some land aquisition has already begun)
Dedicated express trains to both O'Hare and Midway (recently proposed, now under study)
Possible new Crosstown "L" route that connects O'Hare and Midway via Cicero Avenue (on Mayor Daley's wish list)
Extending the Red Line from 95th south and east to Stony Island Avenue (the ROW already exists, but not formal proposal has been made)
Extending the Yellow Line from Dempster to Northbrook Court (on a few people's wish lists, but no formal proposal)
Out of all of these, I'd say the Orange Line extension to Ford City is probably the only one likely to happen within the next ten years or so. The airport express trains and the crosstown route may be dependent on what happens in regards to expansion of O'Hare, which is anybody's guess.
...in the Chicago system the subways consistently seem to operate at higher speeds than both the elevated and expressway-median portions of the system.
This isn't really true. The maximum speed you'll typically find a CTA train going is about 55 MPH. This can occur in the subway, in a highway median, on the elevated, or at grade. The subway probably only seems faster because it's so much louder.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Definitely faster than in New York, sad to day. And much, much louder.
Thanks for your thorough reply. I think there is a point that you've glossed over that deserves reiteration: Although the listed proposals are under consideration, aren't there other real (and possibly even profitable) ideas for development? For example, one gap where I think a subway could be considered is Chicago Avenue from Streeterville west, turning northwest on Grand Avenue. If you've ridden the Chicago Avenue bus at rush hour, you know that there is business, and often there's overwhelming business such that the bus driver can't collect fares! This seems to be a waste of valuable income, as well as a discouragement to a niche that is growing with the redevelopment of Chicago's Near West and Northwest Sides.) I'm somewhat inclined to believe that development within the city would be more profitable than extensions of existing lines outside of the city or on the fringes of the city, which would compete with (and probably be slower than) Metra's commuter trains and would likely draw revenue from bus transfers (rather than full fares).
The flying junction seems like something that ought to be under consideration (especially if it is something less costly, less of a major capital improvement); wouldn't this be a major boon to the red line? Not to say, why don't they do these things?--it's well known that funding is limited--but isn't there currently a negative impact in delays as a result of the crossing?
If you have millions and want to improve access to the north side, the existing tracks and put in a flyover at Clark jct.
If you have billions, do the above and put a subway going up Sheridan or Clark. A subway under Sheridan to Lawrence, then west to the Ravenswood is in the mega hopeful 21st century transit plans.
A very busy time as there have been several changes in the fleet assigned to Mattapan.
First, 3263, rehabbed in record time, has returned to Mattapan where the finishing touches are being applied. As has been the case with every rebuild so far, this one has some distinguishing features. The (correct) large exterior numerals have given way to the smaller ones used on 3265, though the meeting piont of the gream and silver at the roofline follows the correct curve as on 3260 and 3268. There is no number on the left side of the car, possibly a mistake to be corrected later. The Circle-T logo has been replaced with an up-to-date version of the MTA map decal from the early 1950s, bearing the words Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority in the outer border. The map of towns served has expanded to include Quincy and Braintree, and the routes are shown in their present day state, including the various extensions and relocations which opened since the original map was done. The car should begin its burn-in testing soon.
Also returning to Mattapan after an absense of almost three decades is Dallas Car 3332, now equipped as a Wire Car. It sits on the ramp track behind Type 3 Plow 5164.
Car 3238 has been spirited away to Riverside to enter the rebuild program.
3262, thought to be the next rehab candidate after a long stint out of service, has been returned to the active fleet and remains a very marginal car.
3234 continues to be very noisy and retains its year old control "plug".
3254 as mentioned in my last report, got rehabbed trucks and has improved markedly, though it also now plugs.
Several cars continue to exhibit rough wheel surfaces, dragging brake shoes, inoperative passenger chimes, and other defects which reduce their comfort level significantly.
The fleet as of 10/1/01 consists of:
In Service:
Green: 3230, 3232, 3234, 3254, 3262
Orange: 3260, 3265, 3268
Out of Service:
Orange: 3263 (finishing touches and testing)
In Rebuild: 3087 (slowed because of canvas roof work), 3238
Work Cars: 3332 (wire car), 5164 (snow plow)
Service is back to normal (non-summer) schedule with six cars at rush hour, five mid afternoons, three midday and Saturdays, two nights and Sundays.
...and that's the latest news from the last bastion of air-electric PCCs.
Thanks for the update, Gerry....I'll be sure to look out for #3263, since it will probably enter revenue service soon. By the way, if you would ever like to go railfanning, feel free to e-mail me privately. -Nick
Does anyone have any photos of the BMT damages. Perhaps our MTA friends) who gave us the IRT photos can send us some BMT pix.
I don't think the BMT tunnel got damaged.
Yes it did, but not even close to the degree that the IRT got.
From what I heard an equipment room and a corridor leading to the S/B platform at Cortlandt BMT were damaged by pieces falling from 2WTC.
wayne
That IRT tunnel damage is mind-boggling. Can you imagine the amout of force needed to bend one of those I-beams like that?
From what I've heard, Damage in the BMT tunnels were not as bad as the IRT tunnels. No collapsed ceilings or alot of dust. However some of the buildings upstairs of the BMT are very shaky. Until the buildings are sturdy or the shaky buildings are taken down, There will be no servive.
From what I've heard, Damage in the BMT tunnels were not as bad as the IRT tunnels. No collapsed ceilings or alot of dust. However some of the buildings upstairs of the BMT are very shaky. Until the buildings are sturdy or the shaky buildings are taken down, There will be no servive.
I presume you mean the two smaller WTC buildings to the east of the towers (WTC 3 and 5, IIRC). They're already being removed. No other buildings are "shaky."
Until they are taken down, no service.
What I.R.T. photos ? where ?
Right here on nycsubway.org of course ...
Go here: http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/wtc-damage/
I was studying the architecture of the World Trade Center And I got this thought.When the first bombing occured and the Path station was damaged,was the Cortland Street station damaged also(the 1 and 9 station is above the Path square)?And on a non related topic what happened on the LIRR?
The 1 and 9 tunnel was extensively damaged between Chambers Street and Rector Street, including the Cortlandt St. Station. The tunnel is caved in and debris from the towers' collapse punctured the tunnel ceiling. It will be a long time (years?) before it is back in service. The N/R tunnel one block is damaged but not nearly as bad. The E train terminal and adjacent A/C line had little damage but the station is closed to keep pedestrians out.
The LIRR has had no physical impact since its closest stations at Penn and Flatbush are each about 3 miles away. On Sept 11 LIRR service was disrupted as thousands of people fled Manhattan, but the service was back to normal schedules the same night. LIRR customers who use Flatbush Avenue terminal have had major changes to their connecting subway services.
Simply put, The WTC station on the #1 was damaged. Depending on who tells you the station tunnel collapsed for some or all of the station. And there was a pocture in the News last week that a beam from the tower did get into the tunnel. The PATH seems to be not damaged too much. But there is a flood in parts of the station and the tunnel under the Hudson. At least there is fresh water. Runoff from broken mains and fire hoses. There is also a danger that the "bathtub". The foundation of the WTC is breeched. If this is the case, there is a danger if it breaks, The Hudson River will reclaim the land that was built from landfill some 35 years ago. Also there is a danger that the rush of water would run into the subways and PATH line. Maybe it would not flood the subways. But it would make the task of reopening it a little longer. And estimates state that it will take at least 3 years for the IRT to reopen. The BMT in maybe 6 months. Both I think would be in the best-case.
This morning I think some of the gremlins who have been calling in false bomb scares, got into some towers and played havic.
So, if it will take 3 years to re-open the 1/9 line below Chambers St, and 6 months for the N/R to resume service, how long would it be for the PATH station to re-open? It is the deepest of all the stations (4-5 stories below the ground, I believe), so I'm guessing that it'll be at least 3-4 years before it reopens.
Quick question: Since the current station is below foundation of the former WTC (I remember from when it was being built in the 60s), and the old Hudson Terminal was east of this, is there any chance of having that station reopened? Since the Millenium Hotel may not survive do to structural damage, I think that the Hudson Terminal station should be reopened/rebuilt.
Living in Brooklyn for the past 9 months (yes, my handle says "Bayonne" but I moved) and working in NJ, I never realized how easy my commute once was. Traveling to WTC to take the PATH was so simple and quick that I (like many others) took it for granted. Today, my commute is now 1.5 to 2 hrs each way to/from NJ. But for safety, I'd travel forever. And I (and I hope like many others) don't complain or take my commute for granted. As long as I arrive safe, that's all that matters.
Quick question: Since the current station is below foundation of the former WTC (I remember from when it was being built in the 60s), and the old Hudson Terminal was east of this, is there any chance of having that station reopened? Since the Millenium Hotel may not survive do to structural damage, I think that the Hudson Terminal station should be reopened/rebuilt.
The former Hudson Terminal station was more or less subsumed into a truck loading area for the WTC. I don't know if the station area was destroyed, but even if it wasn't, it's probably no longer suitable for PATH use.
From what I've heard, the Millenium hotel did not suffer significant structural damage. It looks as if some repairs are in progress.
I'd think the PATH station will take longer. If it'll ever be reopened at all. If the old PATH station will be rebuilt and reopened. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But it will take a while before the site upstairs is cleared and the remaining buildings are either leveled or secured. And that will take at least a year. And that's assuming the "bathtub" can be fixed and doesn't collapse.
But, if that is not fixed, then we have to see if some form of subway/rail service from NJ can be created to service lower Manhattan (whenever that is... 1,2,3 years). PATH trains handled 200,000 people a day during the week (can someone verify this?) to WTC. Whatever the number, it was high. Not restoring service (or replacing it) could prove to be devasting for NJ commuters to lower Manhattan.
I'm guessing that it'll be at least 3-4 years before it reopens.
Does anybody have a figure on how long it took the H&M to build the whole system? It's a good guage of progress.
http://community-2.webtv.net/SheilaSampo/OLDSUBWAYSYSTEMSpre/index.html
Look under Oldark.
Well today I finally got a chance, and got up the nerve to be in Manhattan most of the day, and be near "Ground Zero". When I left this morning I was planning on taking the LIRR, but after hearing reports of hour delays, cancellations because of "signal trouble" in LIC I opted for the N21 bus to the 7 train. At all went pretty well, with some additional crowding on the 7. I waited 15 minutes for a downtown 6 at 42nd. When it came it was really really packed, and was skipping stops after 14th so I waited for the next one right behind.
I got off at Canal street, and walked around Chinatown. I was very dismayed and angered at alot, and I mean ALOT of photshops selling photos of the WTC when it was on fire. That is sick. They should be arrested for selling those photos. I also saw many of this going on East Broadway, with photos of the flaming towers all over the place.
Really annoyed with alot of the Chinatown merchants, they really have went too far this time. I didn't say anything but boy did I feel like it. Am I wrong to feel this way?
AFter Chinatown I walked down to Park Row. By J&R music world and south of there it was all dusty and smelled like steel and fire. Plenty of gas masks abound. I walked along Broadway to the Broadway-Nassau station, at several intersections you could look down the street, and see the wreckage. It looks worse than on TV. The debris field is HUGE, the destruction so severe. You could fit a football field or two in there. There were alot of people stopping and taking pictures, even though the cops tried to get people moving. Memorials were all over the place. It was very busy though with tourists, and alot of places had opened though J&R was still closed and cleaning up.From one of the streets I can see Borders, believe it or not it's still standing, I can see the Borders sign from there. But that building is mostly charred and will come down. It's amazing that One Liberty survived. From walking around the dust cloud ctopped at around City hall, and did not make it to Chinatown. Still Chinatown is a mess, some roads are open but the southern and eastern parts still have no phone service.
I spent the rest of the day on the East Side and Midtown, things were more normal there. After the WTC disaster I don't like going to LOWER Manhattan, there's just a feeling of disaster in the air and Chinatown just isn't the same. And seeing Ground Zero today, I got some closure I needed, but the memorials and missing posters will always haunt me.
What's really surprising is how much ordinary life continues in lower Manhattan considering what happened. The closed-off zone is actually a lot smaller than one might expect (Remember the partial crane collapse on the Conde Nast building a couple of years ago, that closed off a sizeable chunk of Midtown for over a week? That was much more disruptive). It looks like most offices and other businesses outside the closed zone have resumed operations. The sidewalks are as crowded as ever during the day, and of course the subway is running with less overall disruption than anyone would have imagined. If there's anything fortunate about the WTC collapse, it's that the towers fell vertically with a surprisingly small debris area.
By the way, speaking of the "missing" posters, I noted with some amusement that the ones for Dr. Sneha Ann Philip now make it clear that the sexy sawbones disappeared before the disaster :-)
> You could fit a football field or two in there.
14 football fields could fit in the 16 acre WTC bathtub, if my math is correct...
I won’t make that trip anything soon. Too many memories to bear with at this time.
Paul
And that's only between West St. and the IRT! There are another four former city blocks between there and Church St where WTC-4 and WTC-5 stand/stood.
Think visiting lower Manhattan is tough? Try working down here.
Yeah I could hardly tolerate the dust and smoke and I was only down there for 15 minutes or so. I thought to myself how hard it would be to work down there, especially without gas masks.
Hi,
I am trying to find some subway artwork to fill my atlanta home walls... anyone know where I can find some? framed or posters are fine...
Thanks!
Allen "Flatbush"
Dear Allen,
Call the NY Transit Museum Gift Shop at Grand Central Station.
They may have some posters that fit the bill!
Thank you... my mother will have to make a trip over there for me or i will not continue to be her tech support person! :)
btw i ordered some of your shirts today, i hope they fit!
I've observed some of the equipment assignments on the B division due to the Sept. 11 events. I'd like to post what I've seen in the last week, as well as some questions I have about what's going on. I normally can only see the Queens Blvd. line in my daily travels, so I haven't seen the M or W lines at all. I know that there have been other postings on this subject, so please forgive me if I'm asking some redundant questions.
E train: I only have seen R46s. Any R32s running? I've noticed all SB R46 E trains with an "E 8 Avenue" static sign on the electronic destination sign display. I assume this is because "Canal Street" cannot be displayed and that obviously "World Trade Center" should not be displayed.
Q circle train (to Forest Hills): Only have seen R32s. Any R68s?
Q diamond train - what's running on it?
J train: Have only seen R40M/R42s. Are there enough 60 footers to cover the new route to 95th Street, or any other types assigned? Obviously no 75 footers can use this route as used to run on the R.
M: what's running on it?
W: what's running on it?
And, BTW, am I the only person who can remember that when the Queens Blvd. line was first linked to the BMT in 1955, the Brighton Local (today's Q route) was the first BMT line to go to Forest Hills. Since then it's been the 4th Ave. Local (RR), EE, N, and then R prior to Sept. 11.
Q diamond train - what's running on it? Slant 40's and 68's.
M: what's running on it? Mostly slant 40's with some 40M's and 42's.
W: what's running on it? 68's and 68A's.
>>>>>>>>And, BTW, am I the only person who can remember that when the Queens Blvd. line...........
Heck no. There are guys here who could describe the sandhogs that built the sucker.
R-68 and R-68A cars are also riding to Queens via the (Q). Mostly it is a split with that and the R-32's since it has the R crews and the Q crews.
Here are the following car assignment that is in effect as of 10/3/01 since 9/15
R40S and R68 on the Q express
68s and R32 on the Q local
R40S and some R42 on the M
R40 and R42 on the J
R68 and R68A on the W
There are report of R32 on the J in the past. But I'm not sure if that was the really case.
I've seen 68A's on both Q's.
There were no Slant R-40s on the J as of September 25. Unless thngs have changed there are only mixed R-40M/42s.
The summary again:
A: R-32, R-38, R-44
B: R-68
C: R-32, R-38
D: R-68
E: R-32, R-46 (last report roughly 60-40 in favor of 46s)
F: R-46
G: R-46
J: R-40M/42
L: R-40, R-40M/42
M: R-40, R-40M/42
Q Circle: R-32, R-68, R-68A (were 2 R-46s on 9/23 at least; rest was about 50/30/20 32s-68s & 68As.)
Q Diamond: R-40, R-68, R-68A (Was not running weekend I was there but all R-40s until then. Reported to be a growing number of 68s & 68As since 9/25).
S (Rock Pk): R-44
S (Franklin): R-68
S (6 Ave.): R-32
S (Grand): R-46
W: R-68, R-68A (have seen shots of at least 1 or 2 Slant R-40s but very rare).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
In Case anyone was interested, there was a slant R40 on the Q Local this morning. It was manhattan bound when I saw it just after 6:00am.
I didn't get the car number as due to my south bound train arriving at the same time
Charles
Steve was correct about R-142s being at Fresh Pond.
Cars 6556-60 were delivered tonight with diesels doing the towing.
There should be another delivery in the works? We'll see tomorrow.
-Stef
Stef:
Still no 6546-6550?
Also, the first batch of 7500-series R-142As should be around by now.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
Nothing to report on 6546-50, but 6726-30 have just arrived.
-Stef
These units arrived to 180th Street on 10/2/2001..
Peace!
DaShawn
Stef:
That was before I read 272387 above:=)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Voices from Ground Zero
The Learning Channel
Oct 4, 2001
9:00 PM ET
12:00 Mid ET
Voices From Ground Zero tracks the evolution of the World Trade Center tragedy in New York through the eyes and the voices of people at the scene. Viewers will follow the unfolding events along with a policeman, a fireman and an ems worker who were among the first to arrive at groundzero. And we'll be out on the streets as thousands of New Yorkers stop stunned in their tracks, staring up at the burning towers.
Following a ticking clock, 24 Hours at Ground Zero begins with the barrage of attacks over the first critical hours, then focuses on search and rescue efforts through the afternoon, that first night and ends with sunrise over New York the following morning. But always, we see this titanic tragedy from eye-level, along with the people who lived through it.
The spine of our story concentrates on the rescue workers who, like most heroes, selflessly throw themselves into mortal danger to help the thousands of potential victims at the scene. And we'll see the fear, the grief and the confusion as New Yorkers all across the city attempt to come to grips with the magnitude of the disaster and the totality of the loss. The footage is extraordinary - a street-level view of a high-rise disaster. For instance, we'll see a tidal wave of ash and debris - caused by the collapse of the second tower - rolling through the canyons of New York City streets -- as people rush for cover anyplace they can find it.
Source: http://tlc.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=553899000
http://www.truthinmedia.org/
Enjoy...
Looks like the same place that Bin Laden gets his "facts from.
Alan Glick
Yeap...
and so what?
its a legitimate news source.
A legitimate news source woulnd't blame millionaire Bin Laden's hatred of the US on the "fact" that we "impoverish" the third world. We do more to help the Arab poor than do most Arab millionaires and governments.
Alan Glick
your idea of "facts" are the same as Railfan Pete's
Too bad...until he talks about how the "darker races" are "dumbing down america" he almost had my attention...
Coming to memory about the movie was there ever a "Money Train" now it is all done by armored car if i am not mistaken? If there was a Money Train when was it used in service and why was it taken OOS?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Yes, there was (is?) a Money Train. Before the Metrocards, there was a huge amount of cash and tokens moving around. Apparently, for the smaller amounts these days, armored cars make more sense. It was running as recently as the summer, and here are 3 pictures of it:
one two three.
PATH used regular out-of-service trains for their collections, but they are now using in-service trains - I was on a NWK/33rd train the other morning and was surprised when they wheeled the hopper full of coins onto the train.
It is very unusual to have an in-service passenger train do double duty as a revenue train. Were there guys wearing bullet-proof vests and carrying guns aboard? There's always at least one when an
MVM is serviced.
i recall once seeing about a dozen guys get on with bags of tokens and 38s, and then sit on the bags - this was a passenger run on queens blvd. there were 2 or 3 standing, without bags, and 2 cops to boot. that was one odd ride...
Were there guys wearing bullet-proof vests and carrying guns aboard?
Two PATH employees and one PAPD officer. The officer was armed, but I don't think the PATH folks were. It was hard to get a look without being obvious as this was at Christopher St. and the train was packed to bursting.
The last I heard, Last friday night, The trains are still running. Maybe after 9/11 they were curtailed. But never taken out of service altogether. I don't know what you've heard.
I saw the revenue car aka the Money Train two weeks ago at 53rd and Lexington Ave on the E/F at around 10pm.It's easy to identify, especially when the fleet of armed guards comes pouring out of its open door.
Some revenue collection is done by armored car. Saw a pick-up over the weekend at 7th Ave on the Q/Q. Again the armed guards and the big trucks parked outside of the station wher pick up is being done is usually a give-away sign.
I notice that some station are always seem to be armored car pickups while other seem to be revenue car, but I could be wrong.
The TA has bought more armored cars (they are parked all over the sidewalk at Jay Street half the time). They were suspose to stop running the money train but she is still on the rails but a lot of pickups are going to the armored cars.
Saw commercial on Yankee game last night, but couldn't figure out what
subway system it was shot in. Looked like something European...
Barcelona, Spain
Thanks, and I've been there...
A man slit a driver's throat in Tenn. The bus ran off the road.
Check CNN for details. All Greyhound service has been suspended.
Chuck Greene
According to a report on CNN at 9 AM. ---6 confirmed dead, possible 6 more fatalities, several injuries. Happened near Manchester TN on an Interstate Highway. Road closed e/b, long delays w/b. Driver in critical condition at a hospital.
Service to be suspended SYSTEM-WIDE until it can be determined if this is the act of one mentally deranged passenger rather than something more sinister. Let's hope not.
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN THIS WORLD?
More good news for Amtrak although I am getting concearned as tragety seems to be cycling through the transport industry. On the other hand, Amtrak sort of already HAD its accident. It was on 9/11, but nobody seemed to notice thank God. One of the long haul trains slammed into the back of a UP freight that had not cleared the main line. A brand new P42-9DC derailed and caught fire, but only 6 passengers were injured. The NYTimes had a picture, but no article. Talk about dodging a bullet.
God I hope no one blows up a train. That would seriously suck.
Actually, they had 2 derailments that week, and BNSF is pissed at them over rule violations.
Hey Mike - another benifit of electrification - if anyone hijacks a train, they can just turn the power off =)
This bus thing seems to be an isolated incedent.
For the NYT story, click here.
Deraillers can protect trains and if there's time, 50 or so ore cars conveniently parked. Difference is, you USUALLY survive a trainwreck with bumps and bruises ... beats the odds on other conveyances. Last time I flew was 1974. Don't miss it.
Deaths per passenger mile is about the same on train bus and plane.
That's what the staticians say. I beg to differ.
Never said it was based on THAT ... I just LIKE the train. Whether I ride in the cab or in the back with the geese, it's a delight. Where else can you walk the aisles, take in PLEASANT conversation with complete strangers and kibbitz? It's all in the attitude and the pace I s'pose ... but a long distance train is like a vacation unto itself.
Is that counting just Amtrak or rail travel nation wide? There are a hell of a lot of passenger miles made on SEPTA, NJT, MNRR, LIRR, METRA and the MTBA and I can't remember the last commuter RR fatality.
I think all rail. There are also many City buses all over (much more than rail) and very few passenger fatalitys.
I think all rail. There are also many City buses all over (much more than rail) and very few passenger(some getting hit by a bus or train dosen't count) fatalitys.
Except the French TGV system, which, if my information is correct, has not had a single passenger fatality due to a train wreck in the entire 20+ years it's been running. This even includes a couple cases in which trains derailed at high speed. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record on this subject, but this is the rail system we need to be emulating.
More information about the TGV's safety record
-- David
Chicago, IL
Broken record? More like an echo of what a lot of us are thinking! An American TGV would be wonderful. Keep repeating yourself until it gets built.
Altough you may have to keep repeating for fifty years...
Mark
Derails work at low speed!!
They tried it on that runway a few months ago and at 40mph she just flew right over it and kept going.
Depends on the type of derail. Motorized point derails are guarenteed to derail just about anything.
Thank ya! Saved me a post. :)
Take that bastard and shoot him on the spot...no appeals,nothing...this maddness must be stoped.
No need to... he's one of the six fatalities. Apparently a lone act of lunacy, btw - not connected in any way with recent events.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But is is OK to attack someone on a bus???!!!
Mike, I think you had better think more before you post reponses like that.
I never said it was ok to attack someone on a bus. Where did I said it was ok to attack someone on a bus? Please use quotes "".
Ok - you asked for it.
"More good news for Amtrak although I am getting concearned as tragety seems to be cycling through the transport industry. "
Why would someone attacking on a bus be good news for Amtrak?
Because it makes Bus travel look less appealing to the general public so less people will be inclined to take the bus. Trains are a strong substitute for busses and trains will hopefully attract some bus customers. The nationwide delay will also make trains look more attractive and hopefully people will realize that road travel is far more risky than train travel. Nowhere, like you said, did I condone or support attacks on buses. I pointed the net positive effect on the rail industry.
>>> Why would someone attacking on a bus be good news for Amtrak? <<<
It certainly switched some trips from bus to rail.
I had intended to take a Greyhound from Los Angeles to Riverside (about 60 miles) at 11:00 A.M. (arriving at 12:20 P.M.) on Wednesday for a 1:30 P.M. appointment. Because the system was shut down, I had to catch a Metrolink commuter train at 6:49 A.M. (the last train of the day) which got to Riverside at 8:03 A.M. The train ride was pleasant enough, but the scheduling was ridiculous.
BTW there was no return train available. The return trip on five local buses through three counties took six hours from 3:00-9:00 P.M.
Tom
judging from the sketchy people that usualy ride greyhound, i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a terrorist thing.
Now now ... we ALL know where Heypaul was this morning. :)
Apparently, the FBI has decided it wasn't terrorist-related, even though the alleged slasher may have carried a Serbian passport. Anyway, Greyhound service is scheduled to resume at 1 p.m. EDT.
Everyday I ride home on the Market Frankford Line and I keep thinking that the A/B station skipping system could be made to work better. As it stands, out of twelve stations on the north branch of the line, an A or B train only skips three stations. I think it might be a good idea to make every station between Spring Garden and Margaret-Orthodox into an A or B stop, maybe with one all-trains-stop station somewhere along the middle of the line. I think this would speed up the rush hour commute.
Also, A/B trains only run for a very short time. They return to all-stop service at 5:30 when the trains are still crowded with rush hour commuters. I'd think extendeding A/B service to at least 6:00 would make a lot of sense.
Any thoughts? I know there are imperfections in my ideas. Criticism will help refine them, so negative comments are welcome, too.
Mark
The A/B system really is a mess.
I am dependent on A trains to take me to 63rd St, but it seems to me that more B trains run than A's.
I'd be lying if I said I thought SEPTA was really looking into this whole thing. I do ride the Frankford El but not nearly as often as I do the Market St. El (for the simple reason that that's where I live) and I see that stations starting at Berks(ugh!) to about Tioga should be A/B'ed. Erie-Torresdale and Allegheny look like they get enough riders but al others should be A/B'ed. I don't know why 56th St. on the Market St. side isn't A/B'ed.
You know, it always seems to me that there are a lot more B trains than A. I thought I was the only one noticing that.
On the Frankford side a mojority of passengers seem to stay on until the end of the line. A true express train is what is needed, but as long as there are only two tracks, the most should be made of the A/B system, and that is not being done now. I'd go so far as to make Spring Garden and Girard A or B. There should definitely be at least one all-trains stop midway so people can switch trains if they have
to.
Happily Berks is being rebuilt as we speak. I always thought that was the worst active station I've ever seen anywhere!
Mark
Happily Berks is being rebuilt as we speak. I always thought that was the worst active station I've ever seen anywhere!
It was pretty terible. Berks, Huntington, and Church are all being rehabbed now. All three stations looked on the verge of complete collapse before the renovations started. They are the last three stations to be redone on the Frankford, besides the Terminal. That line is really looking great these days.
Speaking of which, the Frankford Terminal is truly a sight to behold right now. I highly recommend a visit to anyone in the area. The constuction is in full swing - the area is completely torn up, and a lot of the concrete for the new terminal building is up already.
I've been watching it since construction began. I got to see the big hole that was excavated, then the bases of the piles before the concrete was poured, and the steel meshwork of the piles themselves before they were encased in concrete. I wish I'd taken photos of all that. It still looks pretty neat, with the platform that will hold the track being built atop the concrete piles. The whole thing will look so different from the old Victorian-industrial steel-and-rivet look of the old structure, more like MARTA than SEPTA.
I hope that the Market elevated structure in West Philly gets as good a makeover when it's time comes.
Also, I hope Kensington can experience the same kind of renewal as the elevated line that runs through it.
Mark
I hope SETPA runs out of money as those old victorial steel structures need to be preserved.
Good point. In its current state of decay its easy to forget not only the historic value of the old structure but the unique beauty of the old styles as well. I just wish someone had decided to value it before it got into such a neglected state.
Mark
Question Fellas: Which branch of the Market-Frankford Line has heavier ridership?? The East corridor or the Western one???
I don't have concrete numbers to support me, but I rode the line daily up until two months ago and it looks no no fewer people ride to Frankford than to 69th St.
Bear in mind that both temrinals serves as multimodal transit hubs for SEPTA. At Frankford, you can transfer to a bus that will take you to pretty much anywhere in the Northeast or northern suburbs. 69th St connects you to all the suburban light rail lines as well as virtually all buses serving Delaware and Chester counties and points south and west. In addition, the area along the El are very well populated and during the rush hour, most stations have a fair enough amount of riders to jusitfy their existence.
Very true. I should also be thankful that I have a train at all, as there are bigger cities that don't have any rail at all.
When I was there in June, it was every other train was A. It starts quite early, about 3:30 PM.
The A/B starts early enough in the afternoon, but it doesn't run late enough. They stop at 5:30 when trains are still packed.
Mark
According to the schedule on Septa.org, the A and B's alternate. 5:30 is early to end, but the real problem is that the service drops off then. There is only a train every 7-8 and soon 10 minutes! That's terrible for that time of day. If they were still running A/B, that would be only every 14-16 min each and better not hold dinner if you're one of the few people unlucky enough to go from an A to a B station!
Since the MFel has OPTO, it wouldn't cost so much more to provide decent 3-4 min headways on their heavy rail lines in peak time. And that's something that a lot of riders would benefit from and that could be marketed easily.
Don't be surprised to see the A/B get watered down even more, especially as the A/B stations lose their significance. Once upon a time 2nd, 34th, and others were A/B stations and public complaints got them changed to all stop. Since many of the riders now go to the extremities of the line, especially on the Frankford side (in college, almost 25 years ago, a couple of classmates and I did some of our own ridership analysis which showed that over 70% of Frankford El riders were going to the last two stops, Margaret-Orthodox and the terminal, and I would bet that it's at least that high today), the value of A/B gets lost.
Skip-stop operation is used to maximize the benefits of a fixed fleet. The quicker trains can make a circuit, the shorter headways can be without adding more trains. The problem becomes one of how much time is actually saved by not making certain stops. Even at some of the all-stop stations, the trains pause barely long enough to cycle the doors on some runs (2nd St being an example). With the number of stations involved at a bare minimum and the hours of service as short as possible, it's no wonder that SEPTA's brand of A/B service continues to unimpress.
Even good old successful PATCO has drastically reduced the number of skip-stop and express-type trains, for much the same rationale (there is but one express in the PM peak followed by one Woodcrest short turn). The time savings for those riding the entire length of the line is virtually insignificant and the inconvenience to those wanting to go to a stop skipped by an express/skip-stop becomes a greater factor. PATCO gets no complaints since peak-hour trains operate at 3-4 minute headways and the real factor passengers feel, the wait, is minimized, while riders don't have to worry about what train stops at what station.
Although the sounds as if teh service could stand improvement, at least SEPTA still has A/B runs. To this day I miss CTA's all-day alternating skip/stop service. It's incredibly tedious now going from the Loop to Howard or O'Hare.
Virtually all of us New Yorkers have been affected in some way by the events of Sept 11. My office building is on Broadway and Exchange Place, a few blocks away. Although my building was not damaged in the attack, it has been closed until this week. My company has another office out in Morristown NJ. But I have to say, the worst way I've been affected since the attack, was having to take NJ Transit for the last 3 weeks! To put it bluntly, NJ Transit SUCKS!
Fine fine, maybe I shouldn't be blaming NJT per say, maybe most of the blame goes to Penn station itself. The overcrowded, ugly, dirty transportation hub is one of my least favorite places in NY. But I still blame NJT for a lot of my grief. The conductors have been surly, the trains overpacked (to my surprise since I'm traveling out of the city), and the cars have been filthy.
Growing up in Westchester, I've been spoiled by Metro-North. I love taking Metro-North, always on time, friendly people, and Grand Central Terminal is a pleasure. NJT and Metro-North are like comparing night and day.
These are some things I noticed which just perplexed me during my many unpleasureable trips on NJT the last few weeks:
Trains with 5 or 6 cars, with only 2 or 3 being open, causing massive overcrowding
2 or 3 (unfriendly) conductors collecting tickets all in the same car! On Metro North there's only 2 for the whole car and they do the job wonderfully!
Trains that are almost always late
Trains that are the first to leave in the morning, littered with garbage and newspapers from the night before
Trains that miss the platforms and have to be backed up on several occasions
And finally, the thing that pissed me off the most and prompted me to write this: I get to Penn 1 minute before my train is supposed to leave. I go down to the track hoping that the train is a little late and I still can get on. I go down and the train is still there - but with the doors closed. I knock on the window to the conductor to ask him to open the doors. At first he ignores me. Then he disappears and I and other people waiting assumed he was going to open the doors for us. The train sits for 5 minutes and then leaves!! I know, maybe they had a red signal and were waiting for it to turn, but if it was Metro North, they would've opened the doors!! I've seen it happen where the train even starts to leave, and then stops and opens the doors for a late passanger.
Bottom line= I hate NJ Transit!
Sorry for the rant...
ws
At least you don't have to ride SEPTA.
What are your septa complaints? I'm just curious to see if they're the same as mine. My main complaint is that we have to few subway lines in Philadelphia, and evening and weekend service could be better.
Mark
There used to be a document on this website that discussed proposed elevated lines in the city. The document was from before construction of the Frankford El. I printed it out a few years back and still have it but don't know where the online version is.
For a city this size, we have a woefully small number of rapid-rail transit lines. The lines we have are very crowded but bus routes that I think should have some section covered by rapid rail (9, 20, 21) are really crowded.
The elevated lines proposed would have given Philadelphia a system not unlike Chicago's. An el along Germantown and Passyunk Aves were among the proposals as well as what is now the Frankford El.
Center City should have another N/S line somewher around 20th St and another E/W line on either Walnut or Arch Sts.
What would be even better I thuink would be new subway-surface routes running through these tunnels as well as as heavy rail.
I'm sure that's one topic not as old and repeated as "fantasy subway proposals" for New York.
Taking a long view transit did well in the early years of the twentieth century. Sadly the late twenties, while the era of the IND, were also the END of the Cincinnatti project. Philly got started but in fact the system today is a pale shadow of the planned system. The express tracks on the BSS were built many yers aferthe tunnels were constructed. The bellmouths for the 'famous' Roosevelt branch are there but the line is like Second Ave. OTOH. as Philly follows Detroit into decline, money for urban transit expansion will
be slim and none. (Besides Harrisburg dislikes Philly and they have the pursestrings)
Trust me, I have a million fantasy lines for Philly. Here are a few:
1) My dream system starts with the phantom Roosevelt Boulevard subway.
2) Then I add some length the the trunk of the Broad Street Subway. I extend it north all the way to Jenkintown (yeah, I know the NIMBYs won't like it, but they keep quiet in this fantasy). I also extend it south from the stadiums under the Delaware into Jersey, to the nearest big expressway interchange where I have a giant Park n' Ride lot.
3) Starting at City Hall I'd have a line that runs under Ben Franklin Parkway, stopping at the library, then the art museum. It would continue to the zoo, then through Manayunk, Roxborough, and eventually Conshohocken, with a spur to King of Prussia. At the City Hall end it could be extended southward or eastward, but I haven't figured out where yet.
4) I'd build a crosstown route that incorporates the route of the current R8 Fox chase line, but coming south it would veer to the west, intersecting the BSS somewhere aroung Erie maybe, then run southwest, skirting the south end of Germantown, and eventually running under City Avenue until it reaches the Route 100 tracks.
5) I'd make the additional N-S line that you talked about by replacing one of the Chestnut Hill regional lines with heavy rail, running it south to 30th street. From there it would cross the Schuylkill and run into South Philly, maybe, I'm not sure.
6) I'd extend the PATCO west, across the Schuylkill and then south into southwest Philly.
7) I'd also make a spur from the west end of the Market-Frankford Line at about 46th street veering north to make stops at the Mann Center, and eventually connect with my City Avenue Line. There was an idea I heard about once to extend MFL to Broomall, too, so as long as we're fantasizing, I'd build that, too.
Give me time I could think of more, I'm sure.
Mark
Thanks for not forgetting Roxborough! Also, keep in mind that major crosstown move along the Blvd corridor. That's a key one. You may want to extend it along 52nd St to tap another major transit corridor.
Another I always thought worthy of consideration was the extension of the Broad St subway along the Stenton Ave corridor possibly jumping over to the Chestnut Hill East line at some point. The 'Hillers would absolutely LOVE a rapid transit line to their front doorsteps!
Stenton Ave or maybe Cheltenham Ave would be nice places for a subway line.
I'm not sure I follow your 52d street plan. Are you talking about a southwest extension of the proposed Roosevelt Boulevard line that would run into West Philly?
Mark
Yes, perhaps via City Ave and then turning into 54th St thru Wynnefield, eventually ending up in Southwest Phila, pretty much following the Route 52 bus routing. The 52 is consistently one of SPETA's heaviest bus lines.
I like the idea of a City Ave/54th Street line but having walked along both roads many a time myself, I know that although they run near places people would want to go (St. Joe's, 52nd St. shopping area) the streets don't have much foot traffic.
Now I know that turnstile numbers can determine whether a station gets closed down but does it matter which direction the turnstiles are turning?
Is it more important to transit agencies to see more people entering a station than exiting?
Which streets don't have the foot traffic? Admittedly, City Ave doesn't have a lot but it isn't all that pedestrian friendly either. 54th St may be a different story but this drops not too far south of City Ave. 52nd St to a couple of blocks either side of Market is a vastly different story with the 'strip' in this area.
I was thinking more of the transit corridors. City Ave itself is a busy one with Route 65 (which has many articulated buses on its frequent trips, although I'm not convinced they're really needed there) as well as the 44 and the 1, which has added midday trips. 52 on 54th is a conistently heavy carrier. Many of the riders on all of these lines are walk-ons from the surrounding residential neighborhoods. The geography and street pattern in this area 'drain' toward the major streets (City Ave and 54th St among them) and there are many people who walk to the transit stops. Rapid transit could attract even more, especially with the employment centers in this area. I see a Route 121 trip load every morning in Center City and it's almost always full of folks headed for jobs along City Ave.
PATCO's a funny one. I used to like the idea of extending PATCO deep into the city until I realized what it's for: shuttling people from NJ into Center City. I think the farthest justifiable place to extend PATCO to is University City. At the bery least people who live "behind Rittenhouse Square" have some kind of fast transit access to non-residential Center City and can get to Penn without walking to Market St, driving, or crossing the B&O tracks and hotfooting it on Walnut St.
I like the idea of linking South Jersey to PHL. Not necessarily via the R1 (which is physically impossible anyway) but by a new rail line extending possibly from Camden and going into South Jersey the direction of Glassboro.
Also, is that rail line along 25th St in South Philly still in use?
The 25th St viaduct is alive, not well (take a look beneath it sometime!), and well used by CSX as an alternate to its own line through the west side of South Phila which is less direct. I've heard more than one 'rumor' that CSX may be abandoning its West Side (South Phila) trackage in favor of the 25th St routing. What makes this rumor hold water is the fact that CSX has recently abandoned its massive Snyder Ave yard complex since it has moved the entire operation to the ex-Conrail Greenwich Yards.
Yes there have been plenty of threads about fantasy SEPTA lines here, but not as many as for New York. I like reading about the SEPTA proposals, because Philly really could use a more extensive system with at least one more trunk line.
A line from Chestnut Hill to Center City and South Philly along the east bank of the Schuylkill and under 21st or 22nd Street could work. Its only connection to another rapid transit line would be at 22nd and Market with the Subway Surface lines, but it would serve the Art Museum, the Franklin Institute and the Free Library, as well as many center City office buildings, so it could work. It would also use a lot of existing railroad right-of way outside of Center City, which would keep costs down.
Or how about an extension of the Ridge Avenue subway? Extend it from its intersection with the Broad Street subway up Ridge Avenue and onto the R6 Norristown line in East Falls and have it continue to Conshohocken? Unlike my first proposal, this line would connect with both the BSS and the MFSE as well the PATCO train, but not the Subway Surface lines. But it would have to continue to South Philly underground due to lack of existing right-of-way. And a tunneling under 8th Street (the present Broad-Ridge Spur ends at 8th and Market) could be hard due to the narrow width of the numbered streets in Center City and below. But I think it could still work.
I like both your ideas. If your 21st-22nd street subway were built, an extra MFL station could be added for transfers. Also I like extending the Ridge Avenue subway, just because I always fear it may be shut down someday unless it is made longer and more vital to the city's transit needs.
What about Olney Avenue? If you get off the BSS there the eastbound buses are often packed, sometimes so much that I can't even get on. I might make my fantasy Fox Chase-City Avenue line (see post 272366) travel under that corridor as it makes its way across town.
Mark
Glad you like them. I hope it's feasible to do the Chestnut Hill-22nd St-South Philly line because Philly can definitely use another north-south heavy rail line.
For all the South Jersey/Philly subtalkers. If you could get together and come up with some hard copy ideas, maybe Mike Dlwer couild design a Philly Fantasy Subway Map for us.
I used to have a really elaborate one drawn that had about five or six lines, but the disk it was on crashed! I made it by severely altering the offical SEPTA rail map from their website using Adobe Photoshop. I started work on a new one, but all I've added so far is the Roosevelt subway. If others have time I can pass along what I've got.
Mark
anyone can e-mail me off-site and I can forward to Mike Adler.
I remember hearing from somewhere years ago thast a lot of this is rooted in history. The PRR tended to treat commuters like dirt, whereas the NH and NYC tended to treat them semi decently. No idea, but yeah, NJT crews tend to be assholes....
I remember hearing from somewhere years ago thast a lot of this is rooted in history. The PRR tended to treat commuters like dirt, whereas the NH and NYC tended to treat them semi decently.
I suppose that's because commuters were a smaller part of the PRR's business than for the other two lines.
What were the Erie and DL&W's attitude to commuters? The Hoboken Division seems to have their act together -- usually courteous and often helpful.
NJT ain't Shit! They act like they are the best thing since sliced bread and the hottest thing since the blow torch.
Tonight will be my last night as a NJT employee and THANK FRIGGIN' GOD!
They assholes you run into are the employees NJT love to have. Someone like me (a buff, who loves being around the equipment and working on and driving the equipment) they hate to hire and have around. I've been written up for sooo much bullshit, discharged once for something REAL stupid, and brought back only to more bullshit. Employees like me who love being around passengers and the equipment are far in few and we are spreaded thinly across the NJT system.
Believe me bro I agree with you totally!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Future Liberty Lines Express Employee
This should be on bustalk, but it fits too well into this example. When I went out to Jersey a few months back, I met this one driver who was really helpful in telling me how to get to East Orange from Newark Penn. He told me that NJT Buses do not serve the street that I was going to, and that ONE Bus (Coach USA) was. Who knows. If he was an SOB, I would have wound up somewhere deep in Essex Cty. and have to take the M & E back to Broad St.
Here one example more on topic. One evening, I'm in Penn Sta trying to get schedules for the Bergen line. In the Customer service office, where this lady is trying to contact the Station Master to correct the announcement for a Midtown Direct train that was due to leave in a few minutes. Lots of people are coming in saying "This train is not on track so and so." and she's still calling. She manages to get through, but the correct track is still not posted, so all those people wind up having to wait 20 minutes for the next MD.
The moral: You're right AFB. Helpful employees ar few and far between in NJT.
"Future Liberty Lines Express Employee"
Was you going to be working with Bee Line?
I'm really sorry to see that the NJT thing didn't pan out (obviously). Has LL called you to begin work yet? I've heard that the Classics are nice buses to operate.
BTW, don't any of you give me any grief about this being a bus post in SubTalk either. Trevor has done a lot for this board and I sincerely hope that his future stint with LL pans out well.
Sorry to hear that. I was actually considering becoming a part-timer when I turn 21, either at Market Street or Oradell.
What garage are you out of?
Also, can you elaborate on some of the problems you've had? If you don't wish to get into detail, I'll understand.
Thanks.
I'm out of Fairview. I've been written up for stupid shit, I've had Foremans/Depot Masters/Supervisors pick on me for nothing. The workers are no better, bunch of fucking airheads!
And don't just think that because I'm a Fairview it doesn't happen anywhere else, I've heard other peoples accounts of being singled out or picked on.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Ex-NJT Employee (THE FUCKING RAT BASTARDS)
Future Liberty Lines Employee
Aside from a few gliches, I ride NJT everyday and don't have the same experiences.
I take it from Jersey Avenue into Penn, usually on the 6:36, and we are almost always 5 minutes early. We usually know the crew by first name.
Coming home, aside from Penn being a hole to start with, and that is Amtrak's problem vs. NJ Transit, the service is fine.
It's alot more crowded in the morning and especially coming home since 9/11, but I think I get my money's worth.
Hmmm sounds a lot like LIRR.
>>>>Trains with 5 or 6 cars, with only 2 or 3 being open, causing massive overcrowding <<<
This can also be a problem with the LIRR, especially weekends. Are there any LIRR personnel in here who can explain (defend) this practice?
>>>>Trains that are the first to leave in the morning, littered with garbage and newspapers from the night before <<<
It's true that there should be more cleanup crews at each terminal. But it's also true that passengers have to take some responsibility and stop littering the cars to the degree they do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just another example of why it doesn't pay to ride transit outside of NY.
Even before the WTC tragedy NJT trains were packed. I used to get a seat every time reverse commuting. Now most days I wqind up standing all the way to at least Newark. Many people flip a triple seat and then one of the two sits facing one way and the other ont he other seat facing the other way. Crew members tell people do not flip the seats and then walk right by flipped seats.
I say charge those seat flippers six fares.
I have also seen luggage on the other three seats and nothing was said. Many times also the other facing seat was flipped and held their feet or just empty. I have tried to flip the seat and was told the bleep. I just stand--I'd rather stand than be knifed or worse just for a stupid seat.
Empty cars-- I agree here too! Many times in a 10 car train of MUs they have 3-4 open and packed.
I fear when the bi-levels come they'll cut cars since the bi-levels will hold more (so they'll have fewer cars with the same seating capacity.)
If I could afford a car, I'd bail out of -
Nasty
Junky
Terrible
(NJT if you did not get the layout!)
I'm surprised nobody noticed. The EWK International Airport NEC-Monorail connection station located inbetween HUNTER and LANE just opened on the 30th. Cost of the monorail is $5 and this is pre-payable via your NJT ticket or payable onsite. There is no road access to the station, but the twn island platform configuration and the glass ganrty over 4 of the now 6 mainline tracks does provide some super photo oppurtunities for both NEC trains, the EWK monorail and possible freight movements on the nearby Conrail Lehigh line. I do not know what trains are stopping there, but it includes both NJT and Amtrak trains. Anyone boarding at Newark Penn for the trip south might want to consider a brief "stopover" at the station if you ticket is not lifted between there and Newark Penn. You might also want to bring you scanner as aside from the NEC chitchat you can listen into NK tower which is slated for closure sometime soon.
Unless they've changed it recently, Newark's airport designation is "EWR" not "EWK".
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The station isn't opened yet. A new schedule was distributed to show what trains would stop from the NEC, Coastline & Amtrak trains when the station opens in November
When it does open we are just going to have to have a subtalk field trip.
Nah, it cost's too much money to get there.
I was figuring it would open the end of the month - October 29, when daylight savings time ends and the timetables for the NEC and Coast change.
Service is going to be three trains an hour, and I believe it's going to be mostly North Jersey Coastline South Amboy/Matawan locals making the stops eastbound and westbound during the rush hours. Most Trenton
trains express to and from Metropark to Newark.
We'll see.
But we can get try from the Airport. EWR is only a local bus ride from Newark Penn Station. Then the $5 to ride but if we don't exit fare control at the end of the monorail?
Monorail is $5.00 just to the station plus train fare???
That is what I believe, monorail from EWR to Station is $5 then the NJT or Slamtrak fare...
I could be wrong.
Rip Off, 8 bucks gets you to PofA by bus every 15 minutes
The schedule went into effect last Sunday a month early. NJT added two trains to help with the overcrowding. There's a new Dover train out of NYP about 6:08 PM and a diesel train that will leave Newark bound for Trenton around 6:20 PM. This will take some of the load off the 6:11 PM out of New York that is full when it reaches Newark and passengers can't get on. The 6:11 is so bad that now these trains have been given nicknames by the crews. The 6:11 is referred to as "The Titanic" and the 6:37 is known as "The Andrea Doria".
As for the airport stop, If you exclude rush hour trains all daytime and evening locals are going to stop at the airport. That's two trains an hour on the NEC, one trian an hour on the coast line. Amtrak is strange. Inbound the first train stops at 9:02 AM. Then at 9:38 and 10:59 and nothing until 1:04 PM with the last trian at 1:43 AM. Outbound the first train leaves at 7:32 AM, the last as 2:50 AM. But no trians between 8:26 to 10:56 AM and 4:01 to 7:57 PM. That's a 2 1/2 hour and 4 hour gap.
I've had the pleasure of standing on the 6:11 out of Penn sometimes. It gets so bad that the crew can't collect tickets. I try to avoid it at all costs. I usually try for the 5:52 to Jersey Avenue. If I miss that, it's the 6:33 Express to New Brunswick, which by the time we hit Metropark, is running up behind the 6:11 because of the crowding on some nights.
Does that 6:24 Diesel stop at Jersey Avenue?
Mike the code for Newark is EWR not EWK which is in China
I think EWK is Slamtrak code for the station not the airport which is EWR. NYP to EWK if you bought a slamtrak ticket.
I noticed it was in the new schedule but I couldn't tell if it was really open.
The Newark Airport station is NOT open yet. I rode past both yesterday morning and this evening. The platforms are still cluttered with construction equipment and no trains are stopping. Obviously they are not on schedule; whether due to the WTC attack or otherwise I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.airtrainnewark.com/airtrainnewark/ says "Opening October 21, 2001"
The CTA is planning on expanding the hours of service on the Purple Line express and the Orange Line.
See story in Chicago Tribune
-- Ed Sachs
This news item sort of gave me a bad taste in my mouth. Yes, it's nice that all these folks from the Beaver State are concerned about New York's economic welfare, and their money will help a little bit. Yet it also seems to me that the underlying assumption is that New York is reeling and helpless in the wake of the attacks and needs whatever assistance it can get. That clearly is not the case, but if people keep thinking that way the city's economic and physical recovery actually can be hindered (what business would want to locate in a city that's going down the drain?)
I just hope people stop pitying New York.
I disagree, I think the spirit of cooperation and concern is far is from pity. Alot of tourists (and the city does derive a significant part of its economy - and just as many working class jobs) are scared to come, such acts by the folks from Oregon should be commended as being in the spirit of pulling together, we all need each other in times such as these, false pride has no place now.
Peter,
I wouldn't worry about it. When the people from Oregon get here, they will have a great time and they will see that nothing stops NYC.
What I don't like is CNN's take on all of this. If anyone is making NYC seem "down in the dumps" it is their reporting. IMHO - CNN is not interested in reality - just ratings.
the media in general has been on this trip ever since it happened. all they do is talk about ground zero, and very little about the rest of town. it's annoying at best.
And let's not forget that CNN (and Reuters) refuses to use the term "terrorists" to describe the men that crashed the airliners into the WTC and the Pentagon, killing thousands. I wouldn't worry too much about CNN's coverage. They have been losing tons of audience to FoxNews and CNBC. NYC does have serious problems as a result of the 9/11 attacks. But that doesn't mean that the city has no future. What it does mean is that the critical time for the city is in the next year. Sadly neither of the most likely future mayors Ferrer or Green instill much confidence. Although I must give Green credit for fully understanding the seriousness of the situation. Ferrer's statements have been peculiar at best, comparing rebuilding the WTC site to his alleged "rebuilding" of the Bronx. Two very different circumstances. The Bronx was abandoned by landlords for many reasons. The WTC was destroyed in a terrorist action.
From what I know either Ferrer or Green would be a disaster for New York, but then again sometimes the gravity of the situation can make the man. As for CNN, I have thought for quite some time that Ted Turner is a rotten anti-American bum who would rather blame us for the world's ills rather than focus on the true reasons for the world's problems. Fox News has O'Reilly, Hannity and Colmes, while the very fair and impartial Chris Matthews give us the straight scoop. Yes, they are terrorists and they have done great harm to the city of New York. They have killed many Americans and have disrupted the subway. Certainly the latter does not equate with the former, the damage is still done. Fox and MSNBC are the way to go.
(From what I know either Ferrer or Green would be a disaster for New York, but then again sometimes the gravity of the situation can make the man.)
People I know who know Ferrer say he is a good and thoughtful man. On the other hand, the people and interests supporting him are real negatives.
People I know who've dealt with Green say he's a shallow asshole. On the other hand, he owes far less to the special interests, who are now backing Ferrer. He is also the candidate most likely to back subway investments -- all the transport types are on his side.
Bloomberg knows nothing, but may learn. I'm afraid he'll give out many more special tax deals for the big corporations, leaving high taxes that discourage new businesses in place.
Pick your poison.
P
Sounds like they should give Rudy the 30-day extension, just so one of the three could be sworn in as the new mayor on April Fool's Day...
Sounds like they should give Rudy the 90-day extension, just so one of the three could be sworn in as the new mayor on April
Fool's Day...
always preview before you post, always preview before you post, always preview...
[re poor choice between Ferrer, Green and Bloomberg]
Pick your poison
Dunno if "poison" is quite the word, but given the fact that one of these Three Stooges is going to be the next mayor, a lot of city residents might be picking Bekins, Mayflower, North American Van Lines, U-Haul ...
One of the great benefits of term limits is that it permits public officials to postpone deficits to a time that they can no longer be in office. Guiliani is no exception. He helped create a $2 billion budget shortfall for the next fiscal year, before the WTC disaster. No wonder he wants to stay only 3 months, he doesn't want to balance next year's budget.
(One of the great benefits of term limits is that it permits public officials to postpone deficits to a time that they can no longer be in office.)
New York's state and local debts were off the charts before he, and term limits arrive, though Giuliani and Pataki deserve particular scorn for not reducing them in a boom. It isn't term limits. It is the fact that New York has been run by and for those cashing in and moving out for 40 years.
Larry, I live in California so I can pass that poison up. I'm already in trouble out here with my Republican buddies because I plan on supporting over Democratic governor for re-election next year. It is out of loyalty. Gray Davis has been fantastic to teachers, given us retirement bonuses, greatly improved pensions when we retire and the knowledge that we have a chief executive who respects our profession. I haven't voted for a Democrat of any kind since 1986, but I don't make a habit of biting the hand that feeds me and disloyalty has never been one of my weak points.
Some day, we'll all have the wisdom to vote for the PERSON instead of the "party dogma" they represent. Our small village mayor is running for town supervisor this year, and for all the time I lived here, never knew if he was a republican or a democrat. Turns out that here in the village, you CAN'T get elected under either flag so neither of the major parties have a presence here.
Now at the town level, they made him choose R or D and he refused. He's running as an independent. He's got OUR vote. Some day, we might get past the fundamentalism of our two major parties and their own dogma and find anointed officials who are above all that. Some day. By the way, Bloomberg was a "democrat" all these years but spurned by his own party. The "republicans" picked him up apparently because they didn't really have anyone else. I'd say Bloomberg would be MOST "independent" when elected ... just a thought.
For those of us in NJ, here's the approximate translation:
CA "town" = NJ "township"
CA "village" = NJ "section" or "neighborhood"
CA "town" = NJ "township"
CA "village" = NJ "section" or "neighborhood"
I thought California abandoned towns and villages, they're all cities now, or else unincorporated and the county is the lowest governmental level.
Since you're in NJ, what's a "borough" and how does it differ from a NYC borough, a city or a village?
What's the difference between a town and township? Which is closer to the NY version?
In Los Angeles, the city proper streches from Porter Ranch (a 'city') in the San Fernando Valley past Long Beach...a good 60 miles if I am not mistaken.
These cities are incorporated into the main city. Santa Monica is shown on maps and atlas' as being a totally seperate, individual city, mail is sent to Santa Monica, CA, not Los Angeles, CA, yet the City of Los Angeles' city limits includes Santa Monica.
Perhaps Sea Beach Fred can dive into more detail than I.
>>> These cities are incorporated into the main city <<<
Sorry, you got it wrong. No city is incorporated into another city. Each city is an independent political subdivision of the state, either a "charter" city or a "general law" city. There are 88 separate independent cities in Los Angeles County. Each city has its own governing body and collects taxes. The first city was Los Angeles, incorporated in 1850. The latest one (Calabasas) was incorporated in 1991. There are certain neighborhoods in Los Angeles that have a strong name recognition and once were independent cities but were consolidated into Los Angeles, such as Hollywood, Venice, San Pedro and Watts, and other neighborhoods which were never independent but have strong name recognition such as Brentwood, Canoga Park, Studio City, Woodland Hills, and Van Nuys, which are part of the city of Los Angeles. There are also unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County that have community names including Altadena, Baldwin Hills, East Los Angeles, Rowland Heights and Universal City, but no independent government.
Tom
Santa Monica is an independent city, NOT within the city limits of LA.
This is seriously OT, but where did you get your information that CNN will not use the word "terrorist"? As far as I know, only Reuters has that stupid policy.
(This is seriously OT, but where did you get your information that CNN will not use the word "terrorist"? As far as I know, only Reuters has that stupid policy.)
Terrorist is too good a word for whoever hit the WTC. When the IRA attacked the British Army, or planted a bomb but gave warning to spread terror and damage property but limit civilian casualties, that was terrorism. When the PLO hijacked plans and held hostages, and occasionanally people were killed but not many, that was terrorism. We can deal with such people if they agree to give up violence. At least the understand the political value of avoiding mass killing.
The WTC is in the Hitler category -- pure evil.
Very well said. So, why are we delaying in bringing the Taliban and Ben Laden to their knees? I havent posted for awhile, because Windows XP beta crashed my *(&^ing computer!!!!! I just give up. I went back to Windows 98SE. Best for home PCs. Also, yesterday was my birthday. I want Ben Laden's head as a gift!
The original story ran a week ago in the Wall Street Journal in which an AOL Time Warner exec was quoted on the ban of the use of the word "terrorist" in the wake of the Reuters ban on the word. According to the story (sorry, the WSJ is a pay site, so you can't html link):
"CNN reporters are supposed to refer to the ‘alleged hijackers’ and not ‘terrorists,’" an AOL Time Warner spokesman said, because "CNN cannot convict anybody; nothing has been judged by a court of law.’"
That comment provoked some strong responses, including by the Wahington Post's Howard Kurtz, who hosts CNN's "Reliable Sources" and said on last Friday's Imus show that he was going to keep on calling them terrorists on CNN whether they liked it or not. By Saturday, whatever ban that AOL Time Warner exec wanted CNN to have on the word "terrorist" was off, and the description was in full use again. London-based Reuters, on the other hand, still is enforcing the Orwellian newspeak "terrorist" ban.
London-based Reuters, on the other hand, still is enforcing the Orwellian newspeak "terrorist" ban.
Heh heh, I'll bet if one of the planes had slammed into Reuters' new North American headquarters in Times Square, the sods back in London would drop their objection to the "T" word.
As anyone who has watched CNN can testify, this is false. Terrorist is used all the time. An article in today's Times implies this was a misinterpretation by Fox News (surprise).
Fox got it from the Wall Street Journal, not the other way around. If you've got a problem with the report, call Robert Bartley or Al Hunt and tell them the WSJ doesn't know its ass from its elbow...
That's a false canard about CNN that was spread by Fox News. I been watching CNN all along, and they use terrorist all the time.
I don't see it as pity. New York does need all the visitors it can get. The city just announced its budget deficit will be twice as high as predicted before 9/11 -- largely because of less tax revenues. We need people to come and spend.
Whats worse is all the ads begging people to come back into the city... it's sad and probably worse in the long run - considering the traffic and transit problems here, we've got enough problems dealing with the people who usually come into town, anyone else will just add to that situation and leave them with a bad impression of the city (nothing but traffic and overcrowded trains).
I say let them pity us all they want. We don't need their pity, but we can always use their money. Besides, we can't do anything about it as long as the media's primary goal is to gain ratings, and as long as bad news is more interesting than good news.
Wait until the next budget comes out. I pity those with children in NYC's public schools. I expect spending per child (excluding special ed) to fall to HALF the level in the surrounding suburbs. Taxes will rise, other services will be cut.
You are right. NYC is in far worse shape than most realize. God forbid another terrorist act occurs -- the city will be economically dead.
(You are right. NYC is in far worse shape than most realize. God forbid another terrorist act occurs -- the city will be economically dead.)
We need the rest of the country to help us. The've done nothing but hurt us for the 50 prior years. Might it happen? Maybe. But underestimating the problem won't help (neither will underestimating and make it seem like a money pit.)
I disagree, New York is felling the after affects of a disaster and economical support from Oregon or any other state is a far cry from pity.In fact that shows the United States literally being the United States!And New York is a far cry from going down the drain OK!
WCBS radio was running a story this morning about reimposing NYC's Non-Resident Payroll Tax.
The NJ residents, who were interviewed were all against it, with a bit of NY bashing thrown in. The irony is that this tax did not cost NJ residents anything because it could be deducted from their NJ income tax payments. (It costs the NJ a bundle).
Sen. Bruno and the rest of the Republican Senate was also reported as being against it.
I guess it's back to normal. :-)
I just rode on an R62A set marked for 2!!! They were obviously borrowed from the 1 line because the middle cars all said 1. Sure it was strange to see all of the side and front signs as 2!!!
I take it you didn't note any of the car numbers.
Nope, I didn't have a pen handy.
who needs a pen?
we all have minds.... (or don't we)?
:)
I saw that set too (yesterday). IIRC, they were in the 2100s.
A train of 2100-series cars, eh? Must have come from the (1) or (3) Check the stripe color the next time anyone sees 'em.
I know what it was (purple), it came from the 3, but it was going to be used on the 1 for New Lots, but then I saw it on the 2.
Your going to see more R62A's from the No.1 Line on the No.2+5 Lines.
There are 2 No.1 trains that are now scheduled to leave 242 Street in the 7AM Hour that will run Local from 242 Street to Flatbush. Then go in service as a No.5 train to E 180 or Dyre. Ofcause if a No.2 Line needs a train the train would go to the No.2 Line. They do that a lot at Flatbush change the Numbers of the train for the good of the service.
lately I have been seeing R62/52A cars with yellow (Pelham) stripes on the 2. Are they borrowing Pelham Cars or have they been transferred and the tape is yet to be changed
Pelham cars were running on the (3) before 9/11.
The Pelham set plus 4 singles from LIV made up a (3) train in those days...
The Department of Defense has informed Metro the early opening is no longer needed. Metro will open at 5:30 AM tomorrow morning (and all other weekdays) and 8 AM on weekends (6:30 opening Saturday for AIDS Walk).
Also, the District has requested Metro offer free rides on MetroRail, MetroBus, and MetroAccess on Saturday, October 13 and Sunday, October 14. The WMATA Board of Directors will meet tomorrow to vote on this.
So the WMATA Board of Directors is responsive to the Department of Defense and the sponsors of the AIDS walk, which is commendable, but turns a cold shoulder to working people that have to be at work before brunch time on the weekend.
The AIDS Walk people pay for the system to open early. They provide funds for operations prior to 8 AM but I'm not sure who collects the revenue. As for the DoD, I don't know if that is in effect.
That truly defies belief. If I'm not mistaken, the AIDS walk is a charitable event designed to raise money for AIDS research and other AIDS related purposes. And the WMATA Board of Directors wants a cut from the proceeds? For shame!
This past sunday i saw R142 #6716-#6720 on track 37 at Unionport Yard & today i didn't see R142 #6716-#6720 but i saw R142a #7501-#7505 on the track 37 again at Unionport Yard.
Peace
David Justiniano
Yeah. I believe #6701-6720 has been delivered...
And 6540-6560 is in the shop @ E 180th...
--Cleanairbus...
http://www.mbta.com/newsinfo/press/pressview.cfm#605
My brother was on an Acela Express that was about 45 minutes late, as were other trains. Was this because of the LIRR thing which was actually caused by Amtrak?
Yep. Supposedly there was a catenary arcover when they re-energized a line, and it wiped out Harold. Slick move, Amtrak. Frankly, I'd like to see the LIRR just line up and hold Amtrak trains durring the rush, until they get this new signal mess fixed. Maybe if Amtrak knew that their prescious Acela was going to be sitting in the dark on that curve by woodside for 2 or 3 hours when this stuff happens, they'd start to do novel things like think, and more importantly, check the alignment of wires that were shut off the facilitate work crews being near them, before turning them on. And I bet the ultimate cause for this is going to be something *really* stupid, like a grounding pole they forgot to remove, or something like that.
Anyone know what the IR720 Money Train car was. When was it converted to Money service?
Thanks
IR720, according to my records began life as an R-22 - car #7444. It was converted to a revenue car under contract R-95.
That's what I have too. It was removed from service on the #3 in November, 1987.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Is it the only revenue car or are there others?
There are 18 other single units for collection. There's a page on this site you can use for reference, check the section on work cars.
-Stef
18 wow! That's alot. I will look thanks.
Are all of them self propelled or are they trailers?
Um, I think they're self-propelled (I've seen them working in place of an R-127/134 on the end of a garbage collecting train)
The pictures look like they run a 2 car money train. Is it always 2 cars?
It's always two cars UNLESS:
There is a propulsion problem on one of them and then 'horses' may be added. OR
The Station Dept. requests that HVAC equiped cars be added in very hot weather.
I thought single cars are not run in the system since they might "gap out" at interlockings?
Because of the upcoming renovations work, which is scheduled
to start any day now, the New York Transit Museum requested that
car G be returned to its owner, the Branford Shore Line Trolley
Museum, earlier than the original termination date of November 2003.
This request was made several months ago and originally we expected
to have the car back in time for last weekend's Autumn in New York
event, but the effects of the WTC disaster delayed the shipping.
Car G was retrieved from the Transit Museum yesterday afternoon
by diesel loco #72. To avoid moving the car on the mainline
at the head end, the consist operated to Pitkin yard leads where
it was wyed, then returned via the "A" train route to 207 St
yard, where it was looped and run out to the loading track at
the gate at 215 St. This move was started after 7 PM to avoid
the PM rush hour. Loading onto a special trailer was completed
after midnight and the car, following a circuitous route dictated
by its oversize status, arrived at the trolley museum early
Wednesday afternoon, where it was unloaded without incident.
Both Branford and NYTM expressed satisfaction with the loan
despite the need to prematurely terminate it and look forward
to future collaboration.
I actually passed G on I-84 earlier today in Waterbury. The car seemed to be clean and in excellent shape. People were slowing down to see what it was, especially with the destination sign on the rear that read "City Hall - 3rd Avenue".
Jeff H,
Will Branford look into that incident that happened involving a failed electric light socket ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Nothing to look into. If you take a look at the car, you wouldn't
even be able to tell which socket had the problem.
This was last minute planning? It would have been nice for the Membership to have been notified about the car's return to the Museum.
-Stef
I take it you mean:....
"would have been nice if the
Membership were notified BEFORE HAND
of the car's return to the Museum"
Because of the difficulties in getting an oversize permit
in Manhattan right now, the date and time of the move was
not established until a few days before.
This way very little FOAM was used, if you get my drift.
I got wind of "an unusual move" from 'The Wall' last week, but was not aware it was specifically Money Car G till Jeff's post.
BMTman
I can't wait for the Member's Day two car train of 1227 & G !
The bad news is someone needs to spend the Winter outside to make room for her. Boy do we need another barn realy bad.
Mr t
Nice to see the delivery was made smooth and w/o incident.
Now, it'll be nice to have 1227 and Money Car G as a consist for those 'special days'. It'll be similar to Branford's R-9 and Low V coupling (not prototypical, but it works).
Congrats to Branford and NYCT on a job well done!
BMTman
Perhaps we'll have that train for annual meeting day.
That sounds like a excelent way to ensure a quorum ... It will bring me back. I even won't mind sitting on those hard folding chairs just knowing a treat awaits outside.
Mr t
Do that and "I'll be there"!!
Hooked up to 1227 no doubt? Would love to be part of that pairing...
BMTman
Time to cue up the theme from Welcome Back Kotter.:-)
The BMT Broadway line needs help. I'm avoiding it because you wind up waiting 10-15 minutes for a packed, slow train and this is on weekdays. The TA needs to change the current arrangement on Broadway as this is seriously adding to congestion and screwing riders. Why not put the W, Q, and diamond Q back on the express tracks(to 57). Run the N and W to/from Astoria, terminate the N at Canal, and reverse them on the switches south of Canal, where they will go in service at Canal. Ditto for the R, run it from Forest Hills on it's usual route, and so the same thing at Canal. Now many may fear this will cause delays, but T/O's can board the rear car at Canal and speed up the reversing. Brooklyn Riders at two stations, Prince and 8th street would have to
transfer at Canal for a Q, diamond Q or W to Brooklyn, but that's alot better than screwing all Broadway riders with the current arrangement, with the N/R lower Manhattan tunnels out for months.
Wouldn't you think that your proposal is a waste of equipment?
Arti
Nope because trains would have some breathing room and be faster. If the equipment is there then why not use it? Or does the MTA think that people like to be packed in a sardine can?
IMO, eliminate the express run on BWay, and things would work out just fine.
Running "short runs" on both directions would be a waste of equipment and resources.
Arti
Right now, the Broadway Line's local tracks south of Prince Street are off-limits to trains. When clearance is given, service will be resumed (not stopping at Cortlandt Street). Before that, it is possible that local service from Queens will be turned at Canal Street, but, again, permission must be given by "the powers that be." It's not NYCT's call.
David
More or less avoid Broadway BMT like the plauge until that section is opened. I sure wish Chinatown was in upper Manhattan now! It's such a pain getting there I don;t go nearly as often, and many other toursist have the same idea. Normally takes me 10 minutes or so to get from Midtown to Chinatown. Now it's like almost 30 minutes. Perhaps S/B trains should just run express from 14th street on just to avoid the bottleneck at the Prince st switch. As far as the people at 8th and Prince, let 'em walk.
That's retarded. "Let 'em walk". That's the single most stupid idea I've ever heard. How about running ALL the trains local instead.
Man, talk about ludicrous.... If there were problems at Prince, don't you think they'd be repeated at 14th? I still can't believe you want people to walk just so that your train isn't delayed for a few minutes.
Need to get to Chinatown from Midtown? The "F" 6th av local coupled with the Grand St. shuttle can get you there. Sure, you'll have to walk a little to get to the Canal area, but you seem to like it, so why not?
hehe, and Q...7 was opposing the minute walking caused by MB switch.
Arti
Also you can use the 6
True, 6 always works, but on weekdays, isn't the 6 almost as bad as the Q/W
Been taking Broadway few times lately, local service is much better, I definitely wouldn't complain. I used to avoid it a a plaque, as in N(ever) and R(early). Now IMO the service is comparable to Lex local.
Arti
Ahem..to Qtraindash7: I assume you take the Q all the way home to Brooklyn and an extra few minutes would be a problem for you...may I remind you that Prince Street & 8th would correspond to 6th Ave stops Bway/Laf and West 4th...so when you were coming down 6th Ave, you never had a problem when the B&D's had to merge at 59th/Columbus Circle??? Then further down, you never had trouble when when Q's had to merge with the B/D at 47th-50th??? Then do you not recall crawling from 34 to 4th and then being held at West 4th because of congestion? Then crawling over the bridge stopping occassionally?
So what's the problem? I myself am an NYU graduate. If you should attend NYU one day, you will regret making that "walking" suggestion when you need 8th St, the preferred station for NYU. It actually says 8th St/NYU on the map (yea). It was already problematic when the downtown stations were closed for upgrade. And hey, if you go to Columbia, you more or less have to go local all the way.
What would happen is you made people walk?? Canal & 14 would be even more crowded...Canal is already a narrow platform, as is Grand St (remember the news article in `95??)
Be thankful.
By the way: another reason to love Sea Beach...the view of the sky between 59th & New Utrecht...riding alongside the recent full moon...gorgeous, just gorgeous...plus, Sea Beach is usally empty at night so the mood is right...West End, Brighton..you guys are too lively...nothing beats the peace and quiet of Sea Beach....
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
Hope Fred doesn t read this.
Oh Fred has read it all right. Read my response. You've got to hand to SeaBeach53. Besides being a class act, he really knows what he is talking about. Too bad some others on this site don't. No names please.
What you mean SeaBeach53 is that NOTHING beats the Sea Beach PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!. To me it is the greatest ride of all the
lines on the New York Subway. Whooshing through those tunnels and rambling through that opoen cut withthe sky and neighborhood above is a real combo between a subway and an elevated. You have to use your imagination to fully comprehend and revel in that line. And the reason it not so crowded is that is does not bisect a bunch of hokey buslines that take riders from the Brighton and Culver to their homes. In fact, I've been told the riders on those two lines can't wait to depart those losing lines to get the bus. And when you prefer the bus over the train, that speaks volumes about those second rate lines. The Sea Beach, on the other hand, goes through nice neighborhoods where you can get off the train and waltz a few blocks home. The Sea Beach today, tomorrow, and forever.
Here we go again....
Nothing beats the Culver. It combines good service with the highest point in the NYCT system. It also gives a great view of CI's shops.
And is 300 pct local, and even slower then the Slow beach was, as to Fred, the Slow Beach is below Street Level and if you are not at the Rail Fan Widow, all you see on the right is wall, and on the left 2-3 other tracks. Only when it leaves 86th St to CI you get sto see anything. and yes J Line, here we go again. As long as #1 Brighton Bob and #4 Slow Beach Fred are on line, this is what you will get.
Yep, the Bob and Fred show is back on the airwaves.:-)
Absolutely
Yes J, here we go again. But you have to blame SeaBeach53 for that. His post on the Sea Beach was so inspiring that I couldn't resist jumping in and offering my two cents worth. You came through like I knew you would, but I still have heard from Q yet. Oh yes, Bob was heard from (Isn't he always) and was complaining as usual. But give my good friends credit. He keeps things alive on what is becoming the Bob and Fred show. This is like a soap opera, isn't it? Maybe we should dub it "The Never Ending Story." I'm in top form now, eh?
Yes, Fred, now you are hearing from me. And yes, you're in top form. And the Slow Beach is in top form too, running local in Brooklyn 24/7. Tranquilly.
If they were running BMT standards today, they could very well be set to "Sea Beach L'c'l." They had those signs.
Right ON
And I know how much Fred loved the standards.....
The Triplex. That was the railcar that was the creme-de-la-creme of them all. Standards, poo. They belonged on the Brighton, West End and 4th Avenue Local. The Triplex made the Sea Beach the special train that it was. That identified that line. Back then my Sea Beach was respected by the TA if for no other reason than it had an identity of its own, the Triplex.
The Brighton Express also had the Triplex, do you forget, and it was a true Express all the way to Brighton. The Sea Beach was a local South of 59th Street, stopping at every little station.
Well, there you go again. May I remind you that your line used the B Standards as well as the Triplex, and the only damn reason you were a "real" express is because it took two lines to make your trains real. The Sea Beach was so superior that it needed only ONE line to make its identity. When someone mentioned the Brighton no one knew what the hell they were talking about unless they said local or express. The Sea Beach was known as the Broadway Express in Manhattan and the Sea Beach in Brooklyn. One more thing, just look at the name Brighton. We could be talking about England, you damn copycats. Or the Brighton Stranger, about that killer who roamed London devouring innocent women. When you mention Sea Beach, you think of the beautiful blue sea laden with fresh seafood and ships and sails. When you think of Beach, you think of sand and fun and a day enjoying yourself. Since you are a weirdsky I'm sure you'd prefer the Brighton, but not this guy. The Sea Beach brings to minds blue sky, white sands, and green-blue ocean waves on a cool summer afternoon. Take that.
You forgot about Brighton Beach in Victoria Australia. By the way WHERE IS SEA BEACH, can not find it on any map of Brooklyn from 1700 until now. A Slow Train that goes nowhere Thats the Sea Beach.
How come everywhere there is a Brighton, it is cloudy and windy, real crappy weather. Victoris is no picnic. It rains like hell and when it is sunny you can fry an egg on the sidewalk, and have a nice glass of sweat that pours out of your body. That's real living pal. When anyone things of the Sea Beach, they put those two words together and it spells pleasure, either on the sea or at the beach. Simple as that Roberto.
"life's a beach." (whoops!)
nd then you marry one
Yep, the Bob and Fred show is back for more scintillating Brighton vs Sea Beach banter.>-)
Watch it Steve, or Frec abd I will get on your case about the A Train Service. 20 minute wait at Howard beach for a traIN AT 2.00pm OIN A wEDNESDAY nO hOLIDAY
Right Bob! Hey Steve, what's that all about anyway? A twenty minute wait? Come on, for an express, that's pathetic. But as far as the Bob and Fred show is concerned, if our fire warms you, then you are welcome to sit by it.
Well, I haven't heard anyone refer to the A as the Always.:-)
Of course, when the R-10s were still around, it was Always fast along CPW.
Must be to much ROCKY MOUNTAIN HIGH
It's even worse on the summit of Pikes Peak or Mount Evans.:-)
"...blue sky, white sands and green-blue ocean waves...." Actually, I think of sunburn, grain of sand caught between my toes, and, in addition specifically with regards to the Sea Beach, empty trains going to Coney Island, and specifically with regards to Coney Island, sandwich wrappers blowing in the sea breeze and trash baskets filled to the brim.
Q: I knew I'd be hearing from you long about now. Well, you are a killjoy aren't you? If the Sea Beach is empty going to Coney Island, then it affords you an opportunity to get a railfan window and enjoy yourself. Sand in the toes is part of the beach. Besides, you can always shower off. I guess to you the glass is always half empty rather than half full. The beach should get you romantic. Don't you remember this.
Under the boardwalk, down by the seeeeeeeaeaaaay
with my baby and a blanket I'll beeeee.
Was that the Four Tops, the Temptations, or someone else out of Motown?
Wrong on all counts, even labels. Ben E King and the Drifters, or maybe just Ben E King Alone
The Slow Beach only has little stations. We're all lucky they haven't made it into a shuttle by now, like the Myrtle Av. line evenings, nights, and weekends. And, by the way, the Brighton-Franklin Expresses, which ran on Sundays and during the summer months (Memorial Day to Labor Day?), used mostly standards, so we've been told.
They had a large white dot on one of their front pantograph gates to identify the train as a Franklin-Nassau Special. Now, if the standards had had actual signs on their bulkheads, it might have been a little different.
Steve, I wasn't thinking of the Franklin-Nassau Specials, but the regularly scheduled Fulton/Franklin to Brighton Beach or Coney Island Expresses, as per the published schedules (check out www.bmt-lines.com).
I stand corrected.
They were 3 and 6 car standards depending on the weather
The White Dot was on all Franklin Trains, either to CI, Nassau or just the shuttle and Green Green Marker Lights
"The white dot was on all Franklin Trains...." Well, you got me there, Bob. I thought the white dot was reserved for the specials and was not used for the regularly scheduled Fulton/Franklin to Brighton/Coney. So that picture on the MTA website, taken July 4, 1953, could have been one of the regularly scheduled expresses and not a Franklin/Nassau special? And are you sure that during the week the Triplexes had always been used as Broadway-Brighton Expresses? That would make sense as the Triplexes could absorb huge crowds, more than the standards. But others on the site say it was only from around the mid-'50s that they were used as expresses.
Absorb ain't the word. Swallow was more like it. The capacity on the Triplexes had to be incredible.
From a Small Child on Kings Highway in the 40s until I left Brooklyn Xmas 58, the Brighton Express always ran Triplexes Mon-Sat 530A-930PM. Sometimes, but rarely a Standard was on the Exp and a Triplex on the Local, but very rarely. The Dot was always on the Franklin, no matter where it ran
The Triplex! Music to my ears. Of course, the Sea Beach and the Triplex were synonomous. None of those damn standards on my train.
Thats one thing we share, the love for those Brown Bombers the Triplex. I used to love to stand in the portals if I could not get the 1st car and pretend I was the conductor, standing between the cars
I think of the Triplexes as Gentle Behemoths. Knowing the type of damage they could inflict had they ever collided with anything else (except perhaps a BMT standard), that's an appropriate nickname.
Well goody goody, we are all in agreement on that. The Triplex was a magnificent train. When I look at some of the types plying the system today I want to throw up. No comparison to those powerhouse Triplexes. That is what I miss most about my old Sea Beach.
The most amazing thing about the Triplexes was that they just ran and ran and ran with virtually no maintenance. I'm telling you they would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance. They would have kept right on rolling along while the rest of the fleet was limping along.
The BMT standards were back on the Sea Beach by the late 50s.
I left NYC in Xmas 58 and the Triplex were still on the Brighton Exp and the Sea beach. BTW where is SEA BEACH?
It is by the sea and on the beach dumb dumb. Don't you just love that name SEA BEACH. It sounds so inviting and invigorating that you just want to take my train and head down to the surf and sand. But you can't because you live in Rebeland and there "ain't no" beaches there. Now I can mosey down to the shore anytime I want and lay in the sand on the warm and balmy Southern California Coast and pretend I got there on the Sea Beach. Sorry Bob.
I am only 2 hours from the Beach here. Funny when I lived on Maui I lived 2 blocks from a beautiful 8 mile long beach, but rarely went. Do I miss the beach, I miss the view I had every time I left the house. Do I miss Maui, don t tell Judy, yes
Hey Bob, that is a big admission coming from you. Be sure Judy doesn't see it or it will be aloha back to the islands.
She never reads these posts. I will e mail you later
Usually where there is a sea there is a beach. Sort of a redundancy, don't you think, Fred? Oh, if there was just a beach without the sea it would be a desert, like in Sahara. Or if there was a sea without a beach it would just be rocks. Rocks are pretty cheap. They get thrown around all the time. Everybody must get stoned.
There is a beach near Las Vegas in the middle of the desert, sand and all that the Sea has, except Fresh Water and No waves. So a Beach does not have to be on the Ocean, Bay, Gulf etc. It could be on a big lake. Isn t there some beaches in Chicago on Lake Michigan?
Yep, there sure are.
But there's only one Slow Beach. Now local even in Brooklyn, 24/7.
Rubbing it in to poor old Fred, Love It
I stand corrected. The standards did return to the Sea Beach at some point after you left. They may not have completely taken over, however.
Bob, I'm glad to know that the Triplexes were always used as the Broadway-Brighton Express. Given the capacity figures posted here a year or so ago, it just makes sense that way. The Brighton Express always needed the capacity. I doubt that the Sea Beach needed it, though.
If I remember correctly that there was just as many Sea beach and West End Trains running in the 40s-50s as the Brighton Exp. I remember the order was Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, out of Times Sq and later 57th St. They may have added additional brighton Trains in 53/534 when the Brighton was extended to Astoria
I didn't care for them, either.
One thing I never understood. If you could fit "Sea Beach L'c'l" on a rollsign, why couldn't you fit "Sea Beach Local"?
You'd need to take a Civil Service "Battery Test" to arrive at the conclusion. :)
In other words, you don't wanna know. :)
The rollsigns on the BMT standards had a lot of abbreviations. The only sign with " Local" spelled out was a plain generic "Local" sign. Same thing with "Express". All express routes had "Exp." except for the plain generic "Express" sign.
I know- except the abbreviation for Local - L'c'l -- was almost as long as the word. Silly.
OTOH the words Express and Local were spelled out on the original R-1/9 curtains on both sides.
Yeah, 'neverending' is the perfect title for it.
Probably the Sea Beach and 4th Av. locals have lost more riders to express buses than any other line. Check the figures David posted a few months ago with those on the bmt-lines website for 1927-1928. Most Sea Beach stations have only a quarter of the ridership they had back then. I doubt that the Brighton or the Culver have fared nearly as badly.
>>I doubt that the Brighton or the Culver have fared nearly as badly.<<
See many express buses in their territory? Plus, the Culver and brighton have trains coming soooo frequently that they might actually be somewhat quicker.
With all due respect, why are you now located 3,000 miles away from the Sea Beach line, your most favorite beloved line in the whole wide world, the line that travels through the "nice neighborhoods" that you seemed to have abandoned many years ago? If it was because of your family that you moved, I'm sorry to hear that, but if I loved a place so much, I would have moved back at the first available opportunity. Personally, I would have moved to my favorite city, Toronto, years ago. The place has excellent transit, civilized humans residing there, and it's clean. It has all the good things that U.S. cities have, and virtually none of the nonsense. However, it's located in Canada, a foreign country where you just can't relocate on a whim. However, the last I heard, people from California are able to move to Brooklyn without applying for immigration! In my final analysis, I guess you will continue to yearn for your beloved Sea Beach line as you remain in California today, tomorrow, and forever.
Fred never lived in Brooklyn, he lived in LIC and Astoria
Wrong again Bob. I lived in Brooklyn until I was three. Please remember that. Plus I spent much of my time living at my grandparents and aunts houses, all of whom lived in Brooklyn.
Fishbowl: Yes, you are right, I do miss the Sea Beach very much. But I mainly miss the Sea Beach of my youth when it was the #4 train, was an express, whizzed down 4th Avenue on those magnificent Triplexes, whooshed through those mini tunnels at breakneck speed, and majestically entered Stillwell Station. That Sea Beach doesn't exist anymore, but loyalties die very hard with me. As far as living in California, I prefer to live her. I am a very loyal Californian and consider my family's move back in 1954 the break of my life. That said, let me also tell you that I still have a loyalty not to the state of New York but to New York City, the metropolis of my birth and the greatest city in the world. However, I wouldn't like to live there. It is too crowded and I have become a suburban guy who likes a little room, a home with a lawn and three dogs (I buried my 16 year old Silky Terrier this morning), and some orange trees in my back yard. I hope that answers your question.
Fred, I'm sorry to hear about your dog, unfortanately I'm allergic, so I was never able to have one. Anyhow, I just wanted to let you know that I was born in Brooklyn in 1959, and I lived there until April of 2000. Mainly because of my job, I moved to Central New Jersey, far enough away from the "hustle and bustle", but close enough where it's not that bad to visit family & friends occaisonally. Though I have fond memories of growing up in Brooklyn, I have no real loyalty to it because after traveling to different places throughout my life, I saw that there were better places to grow up. And even though the New York City Subway was a big part of my life until 1 1/2 years ago, I certainly don't have the passion toward it or any particular line like you do. Even though I lived on the other end of Brooklyn, I thrilled over the Broadway Brooklyn BMT, especially at Myrtle Ave or at Broadway Junction, but I don't feel as attached to it as you seem to be towards the Sea Beach. I guess it's because I'm still only 40 miles from there, so I can get there very easily if I so choose. By the way, I don't have orange trees here in New Jersey, but I do see possums roaming around the garden apartment complex quite often when I get home from work late at night!
Possums? They come out at night here and they are the ugliest things around. I think they are even more hideeous than those rats I've seen on the New York subway tracks. Hell, one time one big one waltzed right by me on the platform like I wasn't even there. Not scared of me at all.
Fred do not get another dog, you still have enough, plus the Puppy. I wish i can replace Yogi, but i can t
Great advice Bob. You are right, three are enough. My wife and I both agree on that. They keep us real busy. I'll tell you this, though. I despise landlords who will not allow dogs on the premises. They are wonderful animal companions, and sometimes I think they are better than people. They are never treacherous, disloyal or ungrateful. I am an unabashed dog lover.
Had Goldie today, took her to the groomer, and she loved being with me. Wish i could keep her here with me in the apt, but i know she loves being on the farm, but is lonely there without her brother Yogi
To hell with your rotten landlords.
I know, but I can t afford to move.Maybe after the New Year, andf all my trials and tribulations will be over.
Well, if it's up to the powers that be, then I can see why the TA is not running N or R service. But they have allowed the TA to relay the E at its WTC station (without passengers of course), so the TA could run at least the R to Canal and allow it to relay south of Canal at a safe distance from Ground Zero. But I'm sure they have their reasons for why the local tracks below Prince are off-limits.
What about "minor WTC E line station platform damage" Is that gone?
I'm sure most, if not all, of the minor damage is gone otherwise they wouldn't be relaying the E there. Of course passengers can not board or get off at WTC. But since that station is right next to Ground Zero and they're letting the E relay there, then surely they let the R relay between Canal and City Hall on the two center track. That area is some distance from the wreckage. Maybe at some point they might.
I'm sure most, if not all, of the minor damage is gone otherwise they wouldn't be relaying the E there. Of course passengers can not board or get off at WTC. But since that station is right next to Ground Zero and they're letting the E relay there, then surely they can let the R relay between Canal and City Hall on the two center tracks. That area is some distance from the wreckage. No buildings between Canal Street and City Hall have been affected so the R should be able to relay there without any trouble.
But would you like to be the one to announce to all the passengers who board at 28th, 23rd, 8th, and Prince (not to mention local stops on the N and R in Queens) that they will all need to transfer at 14th or Canal to get to Brooklyn? Don't forget that the transfer at Canal involves one flight down, one flight up, and another flight down, with lots of walking in between. And those bound for 95th or Sea Beach (i.e., former through N and R riders) will either need to transfer again in Brooklyn or will have to walk clear from Broadway (N/R) to Centre (J/M) at Canal -- tack on a walk of a trainlength and another flight back up. All this when they used to get direct service to Brooklyn with all connecting services across the platform at DeKalb or Pacific.
It ain't just the broadway. the west side irt blows chunks. took it during a mid afternoon monday, and every express stop was swamped with people.
it's just plain dangerous. if something happens in one of them stations, it's going to be ugly. they got to get the crowds moving akready...
The west side IRT plan is brainless. First off, they have the 1&2 running local from Brooklyn. What should happen is that the 3 should be scrapped, 1 trains should get 1/2 of it's cars while the 2 gets some as well. 2 trains can run express, 1 trains local.
But, if they HAD to keep the 3 train, then it should be running local to brooklyn with the 2 while the 1 runs express. It would appear that the 1 has many more riders than the 3 does when coming from uptown only.
And how would you implement your plan based on the existing track geometry?
Arti
If you recall, Lenox reconstruction essentially shut down the #3 tracks north of the 2/3 divide. Most #3's terminated at 137th (during the period, I actually NEVER saw a Lenox-bound #3 train)
Hence, the same plan of action could be taken. 1 trains switch to the local track at Chambers, 2 trains continue as expresses. Do 145th and Lennox get much service? more than the Franklin shuttle? Even if it was minimally higher, shuttle bus service would still suffice for the line.
I think 9/17-9/19 the 2/3 ran lcl to Bklyn and the 1 ran express. EVERY TRAIN no matter 1, 2, or 3 had to cross north of 96th to get to its correct track. That seemed to go smoothly. Also don't forget, the local didn't always go to 137 at one point the locals went to Lenox/Bronx and the expresses went to 137 and up.
With the current setup, only the 2 switches tracks north of 96th St. The 1 and 3 stay put on the same track.
From my understanding, it DIDN'T go smoothly.
Well it is probably harder now than in history b/c of longer trains and grade timers enforced. That's probably why they switched the 1 and 3 south of 96th.
Or, better still, run the 1 and 3 local to Brooklyn and run the 2 express to 14th Street. The 1 should operate to Flatbush, replacing the 2, and the 3 can go back to New Lots.
>>>But, if they HAD to keep the 3 train, then it should be running local to brooklyn with the 2 while the 1 runs express. It would appear that the 1 has many more riders than the 3 does when coming from uptown only.<<<
This actually was done on Sept. 17th and 18th. It was stopped, because it caused major delays north of 96th Street because all of the express trains had to cross in front of all of the local trains. Don't scrap the 3, you need two 7th Avenue IRT services in Brooklyn, just make the 3 local.
>>Or, better still, run the 1 and 3 local to Brooklyn and run the 2 express to 14th Street. The 1 should operate to Flatbush, replacing the 2, and the 3 can go back to New Lots.<<
This is in no way better than the current plan.
>>This actually was done on Sept. 17th and 18th. It was stopped, because it caused major delays north of 96th Street because all of the express trains had to cross in front of all of the local trains. Don't scrap the 3, you need two 7th Avenue IRT services in Brooklyn, just make the 3 local.<<
Oh, yeah. I forgot about the cross-over. Anyway...
I didn't suggest taking away one of the brooklyn services. I suggested scrapping the #3 (until South Ferry is back in operation) and making the 1 & 2 run to brooklyn with the 2 running express in manhattan so that at least some brooklyn riders have express service.
[>>Or, better still, run the 1 and 3 local to Brooklyn and run the 2 express to 14th Street. The 1 should operate to Flatbush, replacing the 2, and the 3 can go back to New Lots.<<
This is in no way better than the current plan.]
It's not? White Plains Road 2 riders headed to the West Side must already deal with a long slow ride and many stops through the Bronx and Harlem. The 3 makes only six stops before 96th Street while the 2 makes a whopping 24 stops before 96th Street.
[I didn't suggest taking away one of the brooklyn services. I suggested scrapping the #3 (until South Ferry is back in operation) and making the 1 & 2 run to brooklyn with the 2 running express in manhattan so that at least some brooklyn riders have express service.]
Ah, now I understand. Yes that's better because both Bronx and Brooklyn IRT riders bound for the West Side get direct express service back. Right now Brooklyn and Bronx riders must transfer to get express service. That's not a good thing.
#1 and #2 service by themselves are inadequate to handle West Side IRT ridership, and there is no room in Brooklyn for additional #1 and #2 service (theoretical capacities aside). This plan would, therefore, do very little for Brooklyn while overloading Manhattan.
David
>>#1 and #2 service by themselves are inadequate to handle West Side IRT ridership, and there is no room in Brooklyn for additional #1 and #2 service (theoretical capacities aside). This plan would, therefore, do very little for Brooklyn while overloading Manhattan<<
Well, the present plan sucks. It leaves no express service into Brooklyn with the only express train coming from Lenox? That sucks, and you know it.
If possible, terminate the uptown #3 at 42nd, using that middle track between 34th and 42nd to turn #3 trains. Also, they can still increase the headways of 1&2 trains slightly.
I guess I understand your point, And I understand why the TA is doing this, but isn't there some way the TA can allow a 7th av express into brooklyn?
"...isn't there some way the TA can allow a 7th av express into brooklyn?"
Sure! Rebuild Rogers Junction (south of Franklin Avenue) to increase the number of Seventh Avenue trains that can run in Brooklyn, especially off the Nostrand Avenue Line.
I'm willing to bring a spoon to dig to widen the structure if someone'll pay for the tracks :-)
David
They could also hire the Heypaul Construction Company.:-)
How about fixing the junction at 96th so that any train from the north can reach either track (express or local) to the south directly? I have it all worked out -- on paper, that is. (Northbound, trains on the local track will have access to Lenox and Broadway local; trains on the express track will have access to Lenox, Broadway local, and the Broadway middle track. One possible service arrangement is 1, 2, and 3 as now, and 9 express south of 96th and also peak-direction north of 96th. A pocket track south of 96th would allow the 3 shuttle to terminate at 96th instead of 135th, offering more extensive transfer opportunities. (Northbound trains could terminate, if necessary, on the middle express track north of 96th.)
Not to say that Mr. Greenberger's plan shouldn't be done, but fixing 96th Street Junction wouldn't do anything at all for Brooklyn, which was what we were talking about.
David
Oh, of course not. I was just mentioning a different project elsewhere on the line that would, if nothing else, offer greater routing flexibility (be it scheduled or emergency-response) without decreasing capacity.
perhaps i've been up too long, but this is something i've been wondering a bit more and more:
on 9/11, i left me house, camera in hand, after only having heard one plane hit, thinking it was just some freak accident,
in my rush downtown, all trains (bway and 8th av) were terminating at 42nd. i still found my way downtown, realzing on the way that there was a decent chance i'd be walking out of the area (manny b to brooklyn...). ...now that i think of it in retrospect, I wonder a bit...
there were thousands of people walking north that morning - since there was no trains - if said attack included bio warfare, these folks (and mtyself, for that matter) mighta still been in danger due to airborne chemicals.
the question in all of this is: should trains have come a bit further south, where they could in an effort to evacuate some of these people? or would this have become a chaotic affair? (everyone was rather calimly walking away, from what i could see...) should the TA have some good evacuate plans drawn up? (surely the folks at PATH had one, or just plain great sensibilty to operate as they did, gathering and shipping everyone out of the wtc terminal).
also, given the recent overcrowding, me thinks a 2nd av line should just be a first step in overhauling transit around here. i can't imagine what would happen if soemthing else went down where everyone tried to get out of town fast, or we lost another through route...
...just soemthing to chew on...
also, given the recent overcrowding, me thinks a 2nd av line should just be a first step in overhauling transit around here.
The planned 2nd Ave line will not connect to Brooklyn nor the Bronx. If something happened that prevented any of the Bronx or Brooklyn lines from reaching Manhattan, it could not provide an alternate route.
The planned 2nd Ave line connects only with the 63rd St tunnel from Queens. This tunnel already connects with the 6th Ave and BMT lines in Manhattan. If something happened to the 63rd St tunnel west of 2nd Ave, then the Queens trains already have the choice of using the 53rd and 60th St tunnels.
The 125th - City Hall capacity for the 2nd Ave line will be 15 tph, only 25% the capacity of the existing Lex service.
It won't be much of an alternative for for a disaster.
Keep in mind 2 things:
1. They were trying to keep people away from the site. Running trains there would have allowed people to get closer.
2. It didn't take too long before the whole system was shut down.
The B/D trains couldn't be better! I hope they never finish the bridge.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anyone know where the subway damage is in relation to the rubble piles above ground?
See, this is why college students protest. You can't count on anything anymore. Used to be, you turn on a light and the roaches run. Now they actually come out.
"Does anyone know where the subway damage is in relation to the rubble piles above ground?"
Judging by a map of lower Manhattan downloaded from the MTA website, The IRT Cortlandt St. station was closest to #2 World Trade Center.
In fact it was physically closest to the south part of the station. World Trade Center Plaza was closest to the middle of that station. Now #1 World Trade Center was farthest from Cortlandt St station on the same line as the northern moset part of the station.
This is according to this map, so I can't vouch for its accuracy if it's on the money or not.
I am aware of since using this station in the past, I gained access throught the mall upstairs. I am not aware of any direct access from street entrances.
The BMT Cortlandt St. Station is one block east of the IRT one, but differing reports of damage or not have surfaced here since 9/11. So things are sketchy right now.
Bill "Newkirk"
Do Peter's maps show all of the switching? If they don't could I get some input on what is missing. I am building a BAHN simulation, and want to include all of them.
Thanks
Except for inside yards, yes.
If you mean Peter Dougherty, that man shows EVERYTHING! I've ridden the rails with his book in tow and he misses very little. The dedication he put into that book is almost sick. I LOVE that book.
I've done many Bahn simulations of it. Heck, I'm doing one now but it's not on my priority list. The program has many limitations to keep it realistic. But, never the less, I have custom NYC Subway Cars for it but only in today's routes. E-mail me for more infos...
From an engineering standpoint, Both buildings peeled outward as they collapsed. Given that the beams with the most kinetic energy would have been towards the outside of the rubble piles. An assumption might be made that if the tunnel runs underneath the tower(s) there might be a chance that the collapsed portion might be in two parts with a "relatively" undamaged section between.
If it was about twenty to fifty feet to the side it might be possible to remove the debris from within the tunnel as there would not be a tremendous load above that would force more debris in as soon as some was removed.
As far as the buckled column goes, some good heavy jacks should be abto relieve the strain ( if there is any, asit may have deformed due to the initial kinetic energy release and may not still be under compression.
"As far as the buckled column goes, some good heavy jacks should be abto relieve the strain ( if there is any, asit may have deformed due to the initial kinetic energy release and may not still be under compression."
The TA bolstered up some of the tunnels with heavy duty square wooden beams to prevent a ceiling cave in. I don't know if this was on the BMT or IRT tunnels. My guess is when the area is cleared and the TA is given a green light to rehab the IRT Cortlandt St Station it will be more than a rehab. My guess is the whole station and affected tunnels will be excavated and totally rebuilt. I don't think the TA will chance any spot rebuilding since the station and tunnels got hit bad and the structural integrity may be comprimised. There may be some structural weak spots not seen to the human eye.
Bill "Newkirk"
They wouldn't be using just the old eyeball. Now when concrete is certified they can scan it using ultrasound to find any discontinuities. Similiar to finding earthquake faults or oil. It saves having to replace sections that might be sound.
". It saves having to replace sections that might be sound."
Knowing the TA, they won't do a patch job. Since Federal dollars for rebuilding will be involved and the street above is probably beaten to hell, it would make sense to open the station up, demolish it and rebuild. That station is kinda close to the street anyway, those I beams that speared the station and tunnels are evidence of that.
Bill "Newkirk"
It would be interesting to know how deep it is. The only real barrier to the beams penetration would have been the street and the roof of the tunnel The beams probably behaved like armor peircing ammo, small end area with a large mass behind for kinetic energy. Whats between the street and the roof of the tunnell was probable all fill. This is assuming the tunnel was under the street.
It might be appropriat to do a tile mural in the station showing the before and the horror so we never forget what terrorism is capable of.
[The beams probably behaved like armor peircing ammo, small end area with a large mass behind for kinetic energy. ]
Steel doesn't have nearly the density of armor piercing bullets, also the buzzword of yours "kinetic energy" is not applicable in this comparison. :-)
Arti
Steel doesn't have nearly the density of armor piercing bullets
Most AP ammo was/is made of steel. Granted that there are various manufacturing processes that make it much harder than normal steel, but it is steel none the less.
Better AP ammo is made of hi-density metals like Tungsten and depleted Uranium, but these materials are expensive and not widly available.
Remember the 1/9 tunnel at the WTC is two levels below groud -- the 1/9 tracks do not rise up a level between Chambers and Cortlandt, they remain two levels underground but divide just north of Vescey Street to make room for the 2/3 tracks coming from Park Place.
The stairs inside the mall area went down to the 1/9 platform at Cortlandt, so the debris from Tower 2 had to penetrate the mall level first, and then came through the roof of the IRT tunnel, which shows even more how much force was behind it in the collapse (and IMHO, it's pretty amazing that the part of the station that's on the bridge over the PATH escalators didn't also collapse).
Goes to show that good engineering was involved.
The term 'street' is a little misleading here. Greenwich St. and West Broadway no longer cross that area, since the WTC development extended east to Church St.
The subway is the only remaining vestige of those roads.
So too, for that matter, is Cortlandt Street -- it disappeared at the site of the IRT 1/9 station back in 1968, but the name of the station remained (and the WTC wasn't even added until the late 1970s). But it does explain the curve in the IRT tunnel within the WTC site, since that's the spot where it veered onto Greenwich St. headed south from West Broadway -- a curve they could smooth out a bit during reconstruction, depending on how much new work they want to put into the project).
The TA will also have to coordinate any rehab work with the Port Authority, since the PATH escalators run under the Cortlandt St. station. Both the MTA and PA will have to determine reconstruction timetables, options for temporary entrances if needed (more of an issue with PATH than with the 1/9, since PATH has no other downtown stations) and future plans for interconnecting the stations, along with whether or not the IND and BMT stations would be linked as well and how the final underground layout of the site will look.
The original WTC site went up piecemeal, with little thought by the PA on what the other subway entrances besides PATH would look like, which led to the stupid "exit only" stairways from the 1/9 into the main part of the mall. Hopefully whatever underground layout goes into the WTC site next will be a little better thought out.
Good points. Hopefully with the money available to rebuild they go for the most user compatable reconstruction possible!!
You guys seem to be extremely hopeful about this re-building work. Most of the cortlandt st. station was severely damaged. I-beams have ruptured the tunnel. An engineer who visited the station noted that as he walked down the platform, the ceiling kept getting closer and closer to his head. That's a pretty good sign of severe damage to the station, don't you think?
Plus, In case no one else has stated this yet (or you just haven't read my posts): The TA is going to fill the IRT tunnels with concrete. Any hope of any sort of 'fast tracking' on those tunnels is unlikely. Someone here said something about it being done quicker than usual because the tunnel would be off-limits to passengers. But the TA won't even begin work on the tunnels for some time, certainly not before most, if not all, of the rubble is cleared from the site, and that could take time.
Why the concrete? I hadn't heard about that. I'm a transplant to the west coast and don't get all the news.
There was an article linked a couple of days ago with a full explanation, but the short of it is that they are plugging the tunnel to permit safer operation of heavy equipment on the surface and also to protect the remainder of the system in the event that the "bathtub" fails.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, the Times reported that the TA would pump concrete into the tunnels so that it would be able to support the weight above it without collapsing. Right now, there's debris in the tunnel, but I imagine there are unsupported parts of the street, or also places that are ideal for placement of large cranes which will need the support that a hollow tunnel (with missing supports) cannot support.
Plus, In case no one else has stated this yet (or you just haven't read my posts): The TA is going to fill the IRT tunnels with concrete. Any hope of any sort of 'fast tracking' on those tunnels is unlikely. Someone here said something about it being done quicker than usual because the tunnel would be off-limits to passengers. But the TA won't even begin work on the tunnels for some time, certainly not before most, if not all, of the rubble is cleared from the site, and that could take time.
Only one relatively short stretch of tunnel will be (or maybe already has been) filled with concrete. It's a couple of hundred feet in length or thereabouts, located to the north of the Cortland Street IRT station. Obviously, removing the concrete will slow reconstruction, but I don't imagine that the delays would be anything drastic.
If anything significantly delays reconstruction, it won't be the removal of the rubble so much as waiting for the city, Port Authority and others to decide what will replace the WTC. It seems reasonable that the reconstructed station would and should be integrated into the replacement building(s).
I suppose the MTA could decide to rebuild the tunnel as soon as possible in order to restore service to South Ferry, building just an unfinished station shell at Cortland Street; the station could be completed later on once WTC replacement plans are developed.
Obviously, removing the concrete will slow reconstruction, but I don't imagine that the delays would be anything drastic.
So, what you're saying is that removing roughly a football field's length worth of concrete won't slow construction? SOLID concrete. I think that that could slow construction by a month or more, especially since the tunnel is right next to (on) the site.
I suppose the MTA could decide to rebuild the tunnel as soon as possible in order to restore service to South Ferry, building just an unfinished station shell at Cortland Street; the station could be completed later on once WTC replacement plans are developed.
I don't think that's gonna happen...
And it's two places, not one, where concrete has to be poured.
David
"Only one relatively short stretch of tunnel will be (or maybe already has been) filled with concrete. "
I don't think an entire section of tunnel was "filled" with concrete. I think the concrete "plug" is just a thick wall to seal off the tunnel so if the bathtub fails, the subway system doesn't get flooded.
I saw a thing on the news several days ago showing square thick wooden posts supporting the tunnel ceilings in case of a collapse. The posts were in the center of the track and there clearly was a row of them.
Bill "Newkirk"
"The TA is going to fill the IRT tunnels with
concrete."
From what I have read they were going to plug the tunnels in case they flood to prevent the whole system from flooding. This won't take very long to undo. This past spring the MBTA plugged the Red Line tunnel under Fort point channel and closed it for a weekend. Service was back to normal Monday morning. This was done because they were putting another tunnel on top of the tunnel and there was a chance of puncture. The T also has a portable plug for a green line portal that is used whenever there is a large amount of rain. In short "unplugging a tunnel shouldn't take very long to do.
MSNBC was showing a FEMA video today of engineers inspecting the retaing wall underground. There is concern that if it fails the river will be doing the flooding. I checked the FEMA site and couldn't find any more info.
Ummm, what were they inspecting? The bathtub wall (what is holding back the water of the Hudson and the land on which the World Financial Center) is pretty much impossible to inspect (it's not something you can just walk up to. It was a part of the WTC foundation, and, uh, you can't walk up to that right now.
An area had been cleared and a narrow cut had been made in the slab. They said that they were using remote cameras for the inspection. There was a gap between 2 vertical walls that the video showed as being deeper then it could resolve.
It was FEMA video, so I guess it was valid The narrative was by MSNBC though so who knows.
Oh, that's probably true. They most likely dropped a camera equpiied robot into the debris and surveyed a spot on the wall.
No, I meant they would fill the tunnels with concrete.
Presumably, the plugs will be put in at both ends of the WTC "bathtub" and will likely remain in place until the MTA decides in conjunction with the Port Authority and structural engineers what they want to do about reopening the PATH and 1/9 lines.
If they decide to try a quick reopening, possibly to restore 1/9 South Ferry access, then they'll probably uncover the tunnel between the plugs once the site is deemed safe, put in some sort of temporary ceiling and run the trains through without stopping at Cortlandt. If they decide to wait until some sort of overall plan for the area is finalized, then it will take a lot longer. Option 1 would benefit Staten Islanders sooner, while Option 2 would probably be better in the long run, since it would give the MTA, PA and the architects more time to think about what they want to do with the layout and give them a chance to do it without having to worry about maintaining train service, which was the case 30 years ago.
NOT PLUGS!!! THEIR FILLING A STRETCH OF TUNNEL WITH CONCRETE!!!
And, you want to put up a temporary ceiling so that there is through service to South Ferry? You do realize that the tunnel is severely damaged. You can't just 'put a roof on it and call it a day'.
When they clear the debris there will be nothing above the site until there is a decision made by all involved what will go on the grounds -- no water lines, no sewer lines, no electrical lines, no phone lines, nothing. More than likely, the entire site from Vescey to Liberty, and from Trinity to West will also be fenced off to all but authoized personnel, with the possible exception of a temporary PATH entrance.
Because of that, a "down and dirty" quick temporary fix will be possible, along with a temporary roof, because the tunnel will not be getting in the way of anything until new construction is started. But the MTA and PA may decide to do nothing until plans are finalized for the site, which would leave the 1/9 section dormant for a longer time.
Whats the height of the tunnel in there, and what is the clearence. If there is about 3 feet a truss could be used that would be supported by columns on either side.
I would guess, track to roof, that the original Cortlandt St. station tunnel was about 16 feet or so in height, with another 20 feet or so above that to street level, since the tunnel is two levels below ground.
I don't know the car heights on that line. How much gap does it leave?
Car heights are a little over 12 feet, I believe, but someone else may be able to provide the exact specs from trucks to roofline.
The whole tunnel has been damaged. You can't just build some sort of cheap structure as a roof. You could build a whole new structure, but that would have to be pretty much just as strong as a permanent structure. Basically, you can't do any of that until the rubble is cleared and the bathtub walls are definately secure. It would be silly to build a temporary structure just for the sake of a few staten island riders and then be forced to re-build it later.
If South ferry is that crowded, you can run a 3 car shuttle between there and Bowling Green.
It may be a matter of image, showing that we are recovering rapidly. Many of the beams being recovered are still straight and true, so it isn't like they don't have a lot of material.
Beams being recovered from what?
The Towers. Many of the beams showing on the FEMA videos appear to be sound and not fire damage. Beside, new steel beams and columns are not a significant cost item in comparison to clearing the debris
All that stuff must be melted. It might look alright, but there are likely cracks in it. It's unsafe to use.
The walls would have to be as strong as a regular tunnel, but if the whole WTC site is off limits to all vehicluar and pedestrian traffic, allowances can be made for the roof through that area.
As far as should it be done, like I said, in the long run, a co-ordinated WTC underground plan would be better for the MTA and PATH, but a close gubernatorial election next year -- there are a lot of Republicans on Staten Island -- could push Pataki to push the Port Authority and Kalikow to come up with a quick fix for South Ferry passengers.
Again, there's a real quick fix: shuttle to Bowling Green. Building some sort of 'temporary tunnel' is dumb.
If South ferry is that crowded, you can run a 3 car shuttle between there and Bowling Green.
This idea already has been discussed at some length and found to be wanting. Moreover, running a shuttle from South Ferry to Bowling Green would be of relatively little help to those Staten Island Ferry riders heading to destinations along the Seventh Avenue IRT, given the inconvenience of the Lexington/Seventh Avenue transfer at Fulton BN.
But the MTA and PA may decide to do nothing until plans are finalized for the site, which would leave the 1/9 section dormant for a longer time.
As I mentioned in a different thread, one alternative would be for the MTA to build just a station shell at Cortlandt when it restores the tunnel. Trains would then be able to access South Ferry and Rector, with Cortlandt to be finished at a later date once the WTC replacement plans are finalized. Doing so would allow better integration of Cortlandt Street into the new WTC.
There'll be no pressing need for a station at Cortlandt so long as the WTC site remains vacant, not with Rector just a short walk away.
"The TA is going to fill the IRT tunnels with concrete."
That probably has been done by now. I have always said that the Cortlandt St station won't return for YEARS. Even PATH probably has concrete "plugs" in their river tubes until this situation with the "bathtub" has been resolved.
In other words, keep your fingers crossed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Would any engineering strategy would of kept the metal from buckling outwards?
As far as the buckled column goes, some good heavy jacks should be abto relieve the strain ( if there is any, asit may have deformed due to the initial kinetic energy release and may not still be under compression.
The collum has to be replaced, though :)
I'm still looking for the measurements of one of them IRT ones (height, I section, etc). might calc out the load required to buckle it just for yuck value...
"As far as the buckled column goes, some good heavy jacks should be abto relieve the strain ( if there is any, asit may have deformed due to the initial kinetic energy release and may not still be under compression."
This is not correct... on many levels.
I will start with the definition of strain.
Strain is the change in length with respect to initial length, or Dl/l. When the column buckled, it underwent strain. Strain isn't continuing unless the beam is continuing to buckle. By using hydraulic jacks, you aren't relieving any strain. The damage has already been done.
You are making the layman's common (and understandable) mistake of confusing stress and strain, since the two words are incorrectly interchanged in common parlance. For your information, stress is load per unit area (F/A). The buckled columns are (presumably still) under stress, and using hydraulic jacks will relieve stress, not strain.
Now for why the existing columns cannot be reused. To understand why, you really need a knowledge of the stress versus strain relationship in steel.
Initially, there is a linear relationship between stress and strain. Stress always equals strain times a constant (referred to as the modulus of elasticity or Young's modulus). You apply 1 unit of stress, you get one unit of strain (times the constant). You apply 2 units of stress, you get two units of strain (times the constant). The important part is that when you're on this linear part of the curve, there will be no permanent deformation (strain) of the steel once the stress is removed. Even though the steel may have undergone some deformation under applied stress, once that stress is removed, the steel returns to it's initial shape. The recovery is 100%; it's kind of like a rubber band.
After you exceed the elastic limit, the last point of the linear relationship, steel undergoes plastic strain. The steel will no longer recover completely (it will recover some, but this is complex), and the same stress from before now produces far more strain. The steel now behaves like plastic wrap; once you stretch it out, it never returns to it's original shape. The columns that buckled in the station clearly have undergone plastic deformation, in that they did not return to their original position.
So what does all this mean? In a nutshell, once the columns have deformed plastically, their load carrying ability is greatly reduced. It would be horrific engineering practice to reuse these columns to get trains running through the tunnel segment again. Furthermore, deformation of the beams strongly suggests deformation of the ceiling above as well as other parts of the tunnel. The ceiling, being made of concrete, would have cracked under deformation, and would also require replacement. The matte could have suffered damage, and from my limited work around subway tunnels, I don’t think the early tunnel segments used piles.
The bottom line is: don't hold your breath for reopening.
Most or all of the tunnel and station will need to be systematically demolished and replaced – no jacking up of the ceiling or patching up of the walls. It may be quicker and less expensive to just replace the whole thing. I don’t know if the exact same alignment will be used, or if the tunnel will be constructed to A or B division standards, but I'm guessing 2005 at the earliest before trains start running through there.
MATT-2AV
"NOBODY KNOCKS OVER A BUILDING IN MY TOWN!"
That portion of the IRT was part of the Dual Contracts, and AFAIK all Dual Contracts tunnels were built to B division specifications. OTOH the signals and trip arms were installed to accommodate IRT rolling stock.
Excellent explanation, Matt - I've had an interest in stress analysis for a number of years but don't have the engineering background to explain it nearly as well as you did. Incidentally, if you haven't read Henry Petroski's To Engineer Is Human you should; I think you'd enjoy it. Technical enough for an engineer, well-written enough for a layman like myself - it's what sparked my interest in the subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you very much. I truly appreciate your comments, and I enjoyed taking the time to write the post.
I have written down the title of the book, and I'm going to look into getting myself a copy! If you are interested in statics (the study of a body at rest) or it's counterpart mechanics (the stody of a body in motion), courses are available at local community colleges, and require just math and physics backgrounds, possibly only at the high school level.
MATT-2AV
I took this picture in 1979 and can't figure out where the heck I was! Does the location look familiar to anyone?
That's Hammel's Wye on the Rockaway Peninsula. The (A) to Far Rockaway (the lower track branching off) and the (S) to Rockaway Park (taken from the back of the Rockaway Park train).
The structure elevated on top right is the (S) heading north to Broad Channel and eventually the "el". The northbound (A) joins the (S) not seen.
Bill "NewkirkK
Thanks. What had me baffled was that I was at the back of the train, which is most certainly NOT where I would expect to have been.
--Tim
Looks like the wye at the Rockaways.
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
Great shot ... next time, try not to place your sunglasses in front of the lense ;-)
Actually, the picture has faded quite a bit over the years. A little Photoshop magic helped bring it back some, but there wasn't much to work with.
"Actually, the picture has faded quite a bit over the years. A little Photoshop magic helped bring it back some, but there wasn't much to work with."
Was this shot with Ektachrome 200 35mm film ? That film does give that warmish kinda hue.
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, that is possible. I found the pix alone without negatives, so they could be reprints from slides.
I'd say Hammel's Wye.
Easy.Hammels Wye after the bridge.
I wonder when they will be testing the R-142's on the 5 line. But if anyone knows in when this will be happening Please let me know. This is just driving me crazy. Thanks!
Since the cars are long past their testing phase, the placement of R-142 cars on the #5 would most likely be an assignment rather than a test. In any case, be patient...it's coming...
David
I saw a set of R-142s in 5 service on Tuesday AM. As the redbirds march into the sea, you can expect more and more.
Wow!
Well, as of two weeks ago there hadn't been any notices posted for the crews based at East 180 to begin qualification classes for the new equipment.
One would think that would be a prerequisite to any type of full-time assignment.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It's Coming??????
It's already happened, on 3 occassions to date, I have seen R-142s on the (5) line and its always around the same time: 7:30pm at Borough Hall Station heading Flatbush Bound.
If you want to ride it I guess that is the best place to stand as I have no clue as to the other timepoints along the line.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
My understanding is that the operation of R-142s on the #5 thus far is not an assignment, but rather the borrowing of #2 equipment. I stand by my statement.
David
thats maybe what it is i saw that 6681-6685/6691-6695 testing for the <5> and the next on the 2
Great, that maybe all well and true. I was just stating the several times that I seen the 142s on the (5) which its just a little suspect that its the same trip. Maybe because that crew is the only crew on the (5), trained on the cars, Who really knows but the people at 180th, Dyre and 239th!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
For what I underdtand is that all Crews in the IRT are now trainded on the R142's so only have one crew won;t be the problem. The TA might just want one set of intervile to have the train so it can be better montered for any problems with the systems.
Robert
No, not all crews in the A division are trained for the R142 yet. I believe the reason people are seeing the R142 on the 5 at that particular time is because either that 5 line crew are R142 qualified or they got qualified crew from extra board to make that trip and test the train on the 5 line.
OK not all Crew, but most you would have to say. About 85% maybe.
Robert
If I'm not mistaken there have been reports of the R-142s running on the #4 line.
#3 West End Jeff
Only once that I know about, and that was during last year's World (Subway) Series. The other thing I know is that there are R-142s currently stored at Concourse.
I guess that those trains of R-142s are used as spares just in case they're needed or they use them during the rush hours only.
#3 West End Jeff
no. just need to be stored somewhere
r142man
2 all the way
until then
Let's add them to the roster. Delivered!
-Stef
I heard on ch.5 news that a building had cracks in it at 47th and 8th and might collapse. I wonder if this has affected the subway?
I heard on ch.5 news that a building had cracks in it at 47th and 8th and might collapse. I wonder if this has affected the subway?
The news reports probably would have said so if subway service were affected. Which isn't to say that there couldn't be service interruptions if the building weakens further. That would definitely not be a good thing!
First they had us go slow, then the rerouted E's via 6th. They even sent me via 63rd. (not sure why). (I'm not sure what they did with A & C at that point.)
Probably the trains were rerouted over 63St because of congestion. And I'd say the A and C trains had a slow speed order 10 MPH to cut down the vibrations from knocking down the rest of the building. And probably still doing that now as my watch says 5:10 PM
That means no A trains screaming downhill from 50th to 42nd for now. I was on an A train once which crept past 50th St. In fact, it even came to a stop in the station. My mother actually thought this was our stop. I replied, uh, no.
If the City decides that it has to come down it will be in a controlled fashion. They will not let it fall on its own.
They might have the trains go 10 MPH in the area for a while to reduce vibrations and halt service temporarily if/when they demolish the building.
Thankfully they can reroute the trains down 6th Av and back to 8th Av after W4th if need be.
I guess it happened while we were commenting.
http://wcbs880.com/apnews/2001/10/04/n/HeadlineNews/AP-NYC/20011004005494/news_html
The mess is all cleaned up now... I walked close to the site today at lunchtime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read an item in the Daily News that the Post Office has yanked its approval for the new
Penn Station in the Farley Building, saying it needs the office space because of 9/11/01.
In my humble opinion...don't you believe it. The P.O. never had any intention of giving up the Farley;
9/11/01 can be used as a convenient excuse....
Actually, I never much liked the idea of placing the new Penn on 9th Avenue. I'd rather move the
Garden elsewhere and build a new Penn where it used to be...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Amtrak connection at a new Penn Station in the Farley P.O. building really would have been a pain-in-the-butt for people not taking taxis to the station, and espcially for anyone trying to connect with luggage from the LIRR, which would now be almost 1 1/2 blocks away under the proposed set-up.
Unfortunately, the Garden probably isn't going anywhere, such as 11th Ave.-33rd St., until the No. 7 train is extended over to the Javits Center, and that's probably on the back burner as well for a while (unless they came up with the idea of running the 7 from 34th-11th Ave. down to the WTC. Then it could be included as part of the reconstruction plan and could qualify for some of the federal emergency funds).
Move MSG to the site of the WTC. Then build a real train station.
GOOD The "New Penn" is nothing but a waste of money and an uneeded facelift for Amtrak's operations. I'd rather the money go to fixing the damm tunnels / track level first, then a new station.
They never should have torn down the original Penn Station in the first place.
Steve,
That is always easy to say after it happens.
In fact, the Landmarks Preservation Commission was formed (or reformed - depending on how you look at it politically)as a result of the destruction to prevent such things from happening again. The LPC is one of the reasons that Grand Central Terminal remains the outstanding strutire that it is (part of the thanks go to the late Jackie Onasis who spearheaded the effort).
You're absolutely right.
Isaac Stern, the violinist died recently. He singlehandedly saved Carnegie Hall from the wrecking ball. No effort was made to save the old Met, however.
It would be interesting if MSG would move. I think from past news headlines, I heard that MSG would move to 31 St. and 11 Av. which would give the land MSG is on back to Penn Station. Well, this won't happen until the WTC is rebuilt, and I think it won't happen for another 10 to 15 years after that. The WTC complex won't be finished with the rebuilding for about 10 years.
Anyone know if Amtrak F40PH 286 is still in service as a locomotive or has she been converted into a F40 bag?
saw this on News 10[Capitol district news] at 10 pm tonite
You know what? Unless Trump is going to rebuild it with his money, he can stop saying what he wants for the WTC. (wait, we've all been doing that!)
2000 ft tall tower 150 floors and a memorial at the plaza for all the folks whom lost there lives,massive subway transfer underneth and so on. it went on and on with the designers ,big wiggs wioth money etc....
I wouldn't dare him...remember the skating rink in Central Park?
Heh. Saw that on WTEN but was popping between that and 13 since channel 13's "Mobil George" bagged a terrorist at his gas station and I know George. Missed the details though since I was busy.
Well ... all we need to hear from now is George Steingrabber and how he'll fit a stadium into the bathtub and all our local boobies will be hatched. Maybe the Donald will build a casino there and REALLY cheese off the fundamentalists.
All this assumes, of course, that The Donald has any ownership/lease rights to the WTC site, which he doesn't. And I don't expect the people involved to treat this like the Wollman Rink fiasco 20 years ago and just say, "Oh, we can't get it done, it's hopeless. Only the great Donald Trump can rebuild the World Trade Center site." If that happens, then you'll really know the USA is down the tubes...
Heh. Agreed. But really ... have we heard from Steingrabber yet? :)
UHM, Steinbrennar donated $1 million to the relief fund. -Nick
Glad to hear it and apologies for any unintended slight - between him and Trump though routinely lining up at the public trough, was wondering.
And you realize, of course, that he will want it called "Trump Towers".
Yes, an amusing lack of creativity in his ediface complex. :)
Are any of the R12 or R14 work cars still around or is the only one in the Transit Museum?
There are still some left. I one two the other day running the a train of hopper cars.
Robert
I've been riding the 7 for the past few days and have been seeing the marker lights off on most of the cars: 9356, 9373, 9429, 9575, 9691 and 9746 just to name a few. Anybody know why this is the case?
Are they gonna fix this problem or are they leaving this until they head to 207 St for their final fate?
#9537 7 Flushing Express
It is possible that these cars were usually in the middle of a consist. The marker lights (I assume you mean the ones on the top) are manually operated by throwing a switch to turn them on. The T/O may not have realized that they were not on.
Marker Lights (top) or End Of Train (EOT) lights (Red ones in the middle)?
Got me.
I was thinking the lights along
the side of the cardoors... some of
us call them 'indication lights'
which blink repeatedly (yellow).
Tho if we're talking the bulkhead
lights, some nice lookin green-white
settings on the Pelham Lines..
The marker lights aren't used for their intended purpose anymore, so it's a moot point. I did see a 2 train last year with its marker lights set to white-red.
I have a recent photo of that on my website (www.orenstransitpage.com). The marker lights are not of much use unless they are using them along side the LCL EXP signs, which I know they aren't.
The local/express signs indicated if the final field shunt step was enabled (exp) or disabled (local). With the final field shunt step permanently disabled, that feature has become meaningless.
When I see the marker lights on the "Redirds" they are often set to red.
#3 West End Jeff
I was on a 5 train once. They were set to other than red-red . The T/O tried to change the colors and could not. He griped about Transit's not fixing the marker lights. (My thought- the cars are going to the great subway in the sky- why fix the unessential lights.)
It's one of the many 7 train redbirds' unique features.
In a small corner of a larger article by Pete Donohue and Corky Siemaszko in the Daily News it reads:
"The biggest casualty is the new V train, which would run from Forest Hills, Queens to Second Avenue on the lower East Side. It was supposed to start rolling Nov. 11 and relieve crowding on the Queens Blvd. corridor trains, particularly on the E and F. "It's going to be delayed, probably a matter of weeks, but we won't really know for how long until we see when we can get the N and R lines back," Trasnit Authority spokesman Al O'Leary said."
More stalling. I knew. I just knew it.
Have you heard yet? There's this big problem in lower manhattan. Rumors are saying that the Twin Towers collapsed and that the whole subway is still messed up. I've also heard that A good deal of "E" trains have lost a lot of passengers. Maybe that's why the connection is opening late. It's a wild guess, but it just might be right...
Good for you. You've heard the E has lost a whole lot of passengers?
Ride the E train to Manhattan and see for yourself. Instead of sitting on your computer all day, come up to the Queens Blvd line, and see for yourself. I challenge you to try and get on a E train at Roosevelt going s/b in the AM rush. Devote 10% of the time you spend on your computer to observing for yourself what is really going on, and you'd understand why Queens residents are so frustrated.
This is the second time the 63rd connector has been delayed. To blame everything on the WTC attack is a sin.
Let's see if they use the 63rd connector this weekend. I bet they do. If they do, then why can't they use it during the week?
Ugh. This is disgusting.
1. You know what. Pretend that the 63rd st tunnel isn't there. Just pretend it isn't. Then, you have the service pattern that has been Queens Plaza for years.
2. How the hell can you complain about this? How the hell can you? The whole N/R lines are out of comission. I think that it's well within reason to delay the opening of the "V" train. And yes, it can be blamed on the WTC attack.
3. You know, your a riot LuchAAA. You complain that when trains are re-routed through 63rd on weekends, there are ridiculous delays of upwards to a week (And, I'm going back to when they would shut down the express tracks and run ONLY F and R trains on weekend headways) and now, you want them to do it on weekdays? Obviously, there are still problems that need to be worked out.
4. I refuse to "devote 10% of the time I spend on my computer" to go ride the Queens Blvd. line. But, why don't you try and spend 10% of the time you spend bashing the TA to show some common sense. You swear up 'n' down that you know everything possible about the friggin' 63rd connector, and that there's not a damn thing hindering it's opening. Yet, you don't know any more than I do about the work that is going on on the area.
I can't believe that you're actually complaining about the TA postponing it because of WTC. I really can't believe that.
I'm not complaining about the WTC. I'm just saying, if they use the WTC as an excuse, it's wrong. If they can use the 63rd connector on weekends, they can use it on weekdays.
Now get your ass over to the Queens Blvd corridor, see what is happening for yourself, or shut the f^ck up about it.
If they can use the 63rd connector on weekends, they can use it on weekdays.
What did I say in my last post in regard to that? Re-read it.
Now get your ass over to the Queens Blvd corridor, see what is happening for yourself, or shut the f^ck up about it.
I already know what Queens Blvd is like, I rode it twice. I know what the crowding is like. I understand that the 63rd st connector will help relieve some of the crowding. But I can't understand how you can sit up here and complain about this. Queens Blvd. has survived without the V for decades. It can survive a little longer without it as well.
Look, your position is that the TA is delaying the opening of the 63rd connector due to the WTC attack.
My position is that if the WTC disaster had any impact on the 63rd connector, then it would be closed completely, and not even used on weekends.
But why argue, the delay is only a couple of weeks? Right?
Can't we all just get along....................
Yes, we can. Put everytime I post something slightly critical of the TA, certain people feel the need to attack me personally, and make LuchAAA a subject heading, which is unnecessary. If I disagree with a TA decision, there is no need to attack me personally like J trainloco has clearly done.
There's a difference between attacking ones ideas and attacking someone.
Either way, our boy Zman has told us the reason for the connector delay, and it is related to the WTC attacks.
1) guess what? it is there.
2) with the N and R down, there is MORE reason to open the line on time, if not immediately. The crowding is dangerous, period.
3&4) ya'all need to take personal little grunts like this to email.
>>ya'all need to take personal little grunts like this to email.<<
Please don't tell me an' LuchAAA that we 'need to take personal grunts like this to e-mail'. I do not use my e-mail as a source for people to to discuss rail issues.
It's still obviously dealing with a transit issue with which anyone can discuss, so why should LuchAAA and myself hog up our knowledge?
The workers and equipment on the 63rd Street Project probably did not work for several days due to the attack. I think the WTC has a factor in the delay.
I think if the V was to make it's debut next month, there would be alot of confusion in the subway. And at this time the subways right now are much too crowded for alot of confused costomers. Imagine 5th or Lex on 53 with people waiting for an F train and nothing comes except E and V trains. I can hear the customers griping now.
Transit will do the best job they can think of to announce the changes in service. But there will always be someone who hasn't heard. Even if they read the red service posters every day for a few weeks plastered on walls and billboards.
Tell me about it. This westside "GO" have been going on for 3 weeks and yet I still have people ask me if the 2 is going local and see people waiting at Chambers St local paltforms waiting for 1 trains. Now I make annoucements urging people to get new subway maps and or brochures on the updated changes.
Is the new updated maps still available in any subway stations? I called service status hotline yesterday to obtain one by mail. They say they don't have. They only have the July 2001 version.
I picked one up at Willets Pt yesterday.
A case of new maps was delivered to each booth. If your station does not have it call the name on a poster near the booth.
The poster says:
(Name of Person)
is the Field Manager(or Superintendent) of this station.
If you have any questions or concerns please call (they give the phone number) or write (and give an address.)
Station Supervisors are responsible for the delivery of maps to each of their booths. Maybe your booth ran out? Did you try the booth at your destination.
Stations has already informed us all via the EBCS OA feature to issue the 9/19/01 red borded map and no prior version is to be issued. One supervisor (I am a Lunch Relief) Called me and asked how many maps we had nad I told her we only had old maps, instructed me to pitch all old maps and to have the S/A call her upon return from lunch.
Thanks for the tip. I just got one from stillwell ave station. Now I'm waiting for the 10/1 version so I could that to my collection.
Be aware that since the 10/1 does not show Chambers IND as being open, I expect yet another map -maybe 10/5/01.
Chambers St has been reopened?
I thought #1 trains went there just to turn around. That by the way has been one of the bigger mistakes made by TA. I realise at night the #4 makes the trip to New Lots. So the #1 is not needed. But to have the #1 turning at Chambers causes backups on the line. What TA should do is have the #1 trains turned at Atlantic Ave. By there the #2 trains can be switched to local and allow the turnback to be done without a sense of rush.
Nights, I think the #1 is turned at 14th.
And, the Chambers St. IRT station has been re-opened.
I haven't worked on the westside line in 2 weeks. #2 trains were going to Brooklyn and #1 trains were going out of service at Franklin. Going light to Chambers. Turning and going back uptown and going back into service at Franklin. Even at 12:30 am it was causing a 10-15 minute wait for the #1 to get out of the pocket. Maybe things have changed.
This is the story for the West Side. The No.3 Line is running Express going from 148 Street to 14 Street from around 5AM to Midnight. The No.2 Line is suppose to run Lacal from 96 Street to Chamber but they let some run Express from 96 St to Time Square during the day and at Night from 96 St to Chambers. I learned that the hard way. I was at 34 Street at around Midnight going to Chambers and a bunch of people asked me if the No.2 stops here on the Local. I said yes but however the No.2 pulled into 14 Street on the Express. Now the people back at 34 Street had to wait 20 more Minutes for the Next one. Now when in the same situation I tell my Passengers to wait for the No.2 train at 96,72, Times Sq, 14, or Chambers.
As for the No.1 Line during the AM Rush Hour 2 trains go to Flatbush and some end at Chambers Street and the rest go to New Lots. At Night the No.1 train run in service to Chambers street.
During the midnight hours, the #1 run from 242St to Chambers Street. Passengers are discharged at Chambers and the train returns uptown in service. Passengers used the 2 for continued service into Bklyn. It is just like the recent 1 line GO below Chambers before the WTC situation.
Turning the trains at Chambers at Night is ok there is not much of a back up. The worst I have seen was a No.2 held outside Chambers for about 5 Minutes but that all.
Well I guess I don't have to tell you what people on the #2 said while waiting for the #1 to move out. Grant you I was on the train once.
When the trains were dicharging at Frankins street that cause more of the delays because the crew had to clean out the train and then when the train got to Chambers the T/O had to change ends and take it North where the next crew would take the train.
I know like over on the No.1 Line the No.2 Line crews are not happy. I think the No.2 has it the worst out of the whole deal.
This delay can be 100% attributed to the WTC disaster.
The TA has delayed the start of the new pick because (one of the reasons) the jobs that were being picked by crews were based on regular schedules (N, R service, J to Broad Street, etc.).
If it weren't for the WTC incident, the pick would have been implemented as scheduled.
As of now, no word as to when the new pick comes into effect.
Also the whole A Div. will be repicking and rumor has it the new jobs will go into Effect in Dec. But will have to wait and see.
A Division repick? That I can certainly understand.
Fair to say that the 1 will be a super "junior" line???
Yes and you know I will be forced to say on the No.1 Line. I will have to pick something because I only missed the last one by 7 people. The jobs I have now on the No.1 Line are from the Bid sheets. I wish I never put that bid in.
Yeah, but how were you supposed to know that the services would have such a radical change?
If I were you, when the repick comes around for you, if there is even one Vacation Relief slot left, GRAB IT!!!
Both the 1 and 2 lines will be the last to get pick out.
IMHO that TA is not doing their best to deal with this WTC disaster. Sure they could be a whole lot worsem but there's lots of room for improvement. We need the V now more than ever.
>>We need the V now more than ever.<<
This puzzles me. It would seem to me that less people are riding the subway. Afterall, most of lower manhattan near that site remains closed, and that was a substantial amount of jobs. A lot of jobs have been relocated outside NYC.
According to press reports, subway riding is 97% of what it was prior to the attack. They didn't break down the riding by line or line segment, though, and I don't have the information available. Some segments (ones that parallel closed ones) are likely more crowded, while others may be less crowded and the closed ones obviously are less crowded because they're closed :-).
"ZMan179"'s explanation of the reasons for the delay in the startup of V service is substantially correct. It'll happen, and soon, but not exactly when it was originally planned to happen.
David
What could NYCT have done/be doing differently, given the constraints it's dealing with (some because of the destruction of infrastructure, others because of capacity limitations on what's left, and still others because of security issues that The Powers That Be continue to believe exist)?
David
I agree. From the perspective of customer service, the TA's plan is just about the best one possible given the circumstances. Every alternative I've read either provides worse service (like making local passengers transfer or closing their stations outright) or subjects passengers to unnecessary confusion (like keeping the Z and sending it somewhere other than the J). Some stations are even getting better service than before, like the West Side IRT local stations (in theory, at least), many of which have needed a major service boost for years.
I'd like to see the V on November 11, but subway passengers have already had to deal with the major service changes on July 22 and the emergency reroutes now. That's enough confusion for one year. The one mistake the TA made, IMO, was planning for two service changes this year. Either the 63rd Street work should have been fast-tracked (sorry) so both changes could happen on July 22 or NYCDOT should have been asked to wait until November to take back the north side of the bridge. (Perhaps both of these were attempted, in which case the TA really isn't to blame here.)
I have my complaints about the TA, but they did their homework this time. (I'm also gratified to have found that the TA's plan is nearly identical to the one I had come up with a day or two before it was announced.)
They're never going to run it, are they? They're going to seal up the connection and cancel all other subway projects forever to cover the expense of it.
:) Andrew
Has the next "pick" for this yet? Can some of our T/O friends confirm that this is no longer available to pick?
--Mark
and just what, in the blue hell, is the justification for this? the line doesn't go anywhere near WTC, and considering the shit service as of late, is ratehr desperately needed.
Looks like the message from city hall and the TA is this: "use mass transit, be crammed into dangerous conditions, and kow well that even the slight things we could do to omprove service will be held away from you for no viable reason at all."
if it were a headline, it'd be "TA/City to riders: drop dead".
I got the 0745 Stillwell Qunicy (I think) at Kings Hwy, Dekalb held us at Church for a connection so we were on the Markers of the express from that point on.
We crawled over the bridge, there was no way the T/O could work the timers since we were so close to a W they stuck in front of us. We sat at X168 for some reason waiting to go local. Then the crawl up Broadway.
Thank goodness we get a nice run through the 60th St. Tube (btw there is a Trainee T/O running the train). All of a sudden we pass the X4 Ball going to GD2 track and the radio blares "Quincy in the cut come in to the Plaza, what are your call letters?".
Then it is the question you always hear "745 Stillwell Quincy why are you late?"
The supervising T/O answeredthat we were held at Church. While he was distracted with that, the trainee blew by flashing yellow laterns, stood on the horn and brake at the same time (thank goodness). Slowed for the MOW guys and we were so slow into Queens Plaza the WD's never flashed (hehe).
There has to be something done to speed up Broadway service. Hour and a half to get to work when it used to take 50 minutes with the Q/F on 6th Ave.
It's only going to get worse!!!!!!!!!
The Queens Blvd line is a crime against humanity. Now they have all sorts of obstacles to slow down trains entering Queens Plaza.
s/b express trains crawl into QP.
Same for n/b locals.
The reason? The city is determined to slow down service at any cost.
Someone told me safety is a concern. Maybe they're right. Maybe all the derailments at QP, resulting in hundreds of fatalities, and thousands of injuries has forced the city to slow down trains in this area.
Or maybe some genius with nothing better to do, just wants to look important, and creates precautions where they're not needed, just so the TA looks like they're on top of things.
If you only had a goddamn brain, you might actually be able to think, eh?
Let's take a look at CANAL ST, on the 8th AV IND!
Southbound express trains have a WD in their faces. If a C is crossing onto the express track A trains aren't even allowed to enter the station. Why? Because a terrible accident killed 2million people. No, because reason says the following 2 things:
1. Safety is #1. If you get to work in time, but have lost an arm, that's not too helpful.
2. If an operator on the A line got careless, and the only stop-arm to prevent the A from hitting the C crossing ahead of it was at the front of the station, an A train could potentially ram the C crossing in front of it.
NOW THEN...
If we look at the present Queens Plaza plan, there are no trains using the Diamond crossovers at Queens Plaza. But when the V begins operation, northbound trains will will have to cross in front of the N/B locals and southbound trains will have to cross in front of the s/b expresses. OH MY GOD! Those are the trains that you said were slowed down! Maybe the TA is trying to prevent an accident from occuring there. Maybe they're saying: "Safety there is a big concern."
But of course, they aren't are they LuchAAA. They're simply doing this to piss you off. Don't worry. I'm sure we can try to convince Train Dude to use his clout and get those "Safety devices" removed at once!
Your reference to Train Dude shows what a little bottom boy sissy you are. Train Dude has nothing to do with this little sparring match we're in. Yet you try to drag him into it because you're exactly what I described you as in the first sentence.
What don't you try to find out what LIRR train he takes to/from work everyday, and kneel down in front of him.
Your reference to Train Dude shows what a little bottom boy sissy you are.
Here we go! Let's drop the facts totally and just make a post of insults.
Train Dude has nothing to do with this little sparring match we're in. Yet you try to drag him into it because you're exactly what I described you as in the first sentence.
Let's look closely at what I said About Train Dude. I said that we could get him to remove the WD's at Queens Plaza. Now:
1. "I was just kidding"
2. Did I drag him into it? Did I say: "I'm sure Train Dude can support my facts"?
3. Do you honestly think I wanted him to remove the WD's on Queens Plaza (or whatever they are)?
4. Do you have a fear that Train Dude would support what I said?
5. Did I mention that I was joking about removing the WD's on Queens Plaza?
What don't you try to find out what LIRR train he takes to/from work everyday, and kneel down in front of him.
You know, believe it or not I was involved in an argument of sorts with Train Dude. I mentioned that it was impossible for someone to realease the dead man's handle while operating an NYC train, and guess what the top of the next post in the thread (T. Dude's) said?:
WRONGGGG!!!!!!!
I don't worship or fear Train Dude, I look at him as another subtalker, kinda like you. Except, he actually knows what he's talking about. You just put the first thing that pops into your head on this page.
I have nothing further to say, and apparently, neither do you. If you did, you would have not just dropped the argument and started insulting me. If you suddenly get some sort of 'second wind' and find some way to backup your empty argument, shout me a holla'. Otherwise, just shut up.
Have a nice evening;
J trainloco.
Understand one thing, and you or any subtalker can look back to the beginning of this, it was you who insulted me first.
Every time I am slightly critical of the TA, you jump in as though you somehow represent the TA, or if my complaints are somehow directed at you.
By creating the topic about me,(The TA is out to get LuchAAA) as if any subtalker needs to see LuchAAA as a topic, shows that you still have an unnatural obsession with me, and my posts. It's funny when Train Dude does it, and people kind of expect it from him now. Heck, looking back, it was obvious that my response to his LIRR post would undoubtedly cause him to come back strong at me.
BUT YOU ARE NOT TRAIN DUDE. You're not as funny. You're not as witty. And you certainly are not as informed as he is. So stop trying to be him. Leave my name out of the subject headings in the future. That's Train Dude's job.
I guess your post will be hanging behind my desk in the AM.
All I did was complain that the Queens Blvd trains are getting slower and slower. I mentioned the signals going into QB s/b tracks, and the n/b local track, which now has WD's.
J train starts calling me an idiot, and insulting me. I didn't say anything bad about the TA, or J train. I did not deserve to be attacked the way I was. He went out of his way to get attention from subtalkers. I'm glad so few responded to his post featuring my name in the subject.
why Didn't YOU take YOUR name out of the Subject line.
While Jtrainloco usually posts informative subject matter, he does resort to name calling when he is unbale to stress a point in a normal debate fashion. Just ask not to be called names and that should end it.
As far as the Queens Blvd IND goes, the real test with these WDs will come when the "V" kicks in, and you have the probable bottleneck at the scissors crossover at Queens Plaza. They are going to have to time arrivals to the minute in the rush hour headways.
Bottlenecking. Delays. Whatever.
It does not matter anymore. What the f^ck am I complaining about???????????????? I must be nuts!!!
Look, a T/O off the street makes like $20+ an hour. Throw in OT, PM differential, etc.. and you've got a guy making $50,000 in his first year.
After five years, I bet he's in the $60,000 range.
No College required!!!!!! Great deal.
I know people who graduate respectable universities, take out a college loan, and have to pay it off for years, while making less than a starting T/O to start. After 5 years, they are lucky to make $85,000. But look at the price they pay.
So why should I waste time complaining about this shit? There is no right answer to any of it. TA employees are doing quite well, most passengers know nothing more than the fact that it seems to take more and more time to get to/from the city each day, and I'm complaining about shit that means nothing.
>>>>>>>>What the f^ck am I complaining about???????????????? I must be nuts!!!
Aw heck, we've been saying that for months.
>>>>>>>>Look, a T/O off the street makes like $20+ an hour. Throw in OT, PM differential, etc.. and you've got a guy making $50,000 in his first year. After five years, I bet he's in the $60,000 range. No College required!!!!!! Great deal.
You can make $60,000 in your first year with OT. Decide to really bust your a** and you can make up to $75,000.
As far as the college thing, that's what I was thinking about 10-12 years ago. Nowadays, I wish that I had gone to college for the frat parties, girls.........and learning (almost forgot that one). I'll need it later on if I attempt to go into management, but so far it wouldn't have done me any good up to this point.
>>>>>>>>.........and I'm complaining about shit that means nothing.
That's why fellow SubTalkers get on your case. You ALWAYS complain. Don't get me wrong, there's a time for complaining (sometimes that's the only way to get things straightened out), just not EVERY time.
This time I didn't even start complaining
Some guy from Brooklyn complained about how his trip to Queens now takes over an hour, when it used to take 50min. I simply said that this is a trend that will spread throughout the entire system over the next few years, as it looks like the TA is slowing trains down every where you look.
Remember the 7 leaving QP s/b? Now there's a slow timer leaving QP. That train used to fly into the city. It's just one example, but I'm sure a T/O can think of more.
I'm done complaining about GO's, WD's, timers, "track work" etc..
I just want to know why the L line is getting R-143's. Traditionally, I always thought that trains went to lines like the L, M, J to finish their life. Now these lines seem to be getting brand new trains. Why? OPTO capabilities?
The L gets the 143's first because the L will be the first line to receive Communication-Based Train-Control (CBTC). This system in a nutshell means that the train will operate itself (like in Washington & San Francisco), and the T/O will be relegated to just operating the doors (and taking over manual operations in the event of a malfunction).
Bottom line for the TA: CBTC completely eliminates C/R's therefore meaning labor cost savings for the TA. Also, OPTO will be implemented on the M weekend shuttle upon arrival of the 143's.
I think you are confusing CBTC with ATO. CBTC, as I understand it, will still require an active train operator. CBTC is supposed to determine the conditions surrounding the train and adjust the top speed accordingly. The operator will still have to operate the train in according tot he CBTC commands.
As to why the L line? I suppose that it had characteristics deemed necessary to 'prove' the abilities of CBTC technology in NYC.
CBTC is also going in on the Concourse Line. Work has begun on the Master tower and signal control rooms at Bedford park Blvd. It should be operational before the R-160s arrive.
>>>>>>>>>>>...........As I understand it, will still require an active train operator. CBTC is supposed to determine the conditions surrounding the train and adjust the top speed accordingly. The operator will still have to operate the train in according tot he CBTC commands.
Okay, now I'm wayyyyyyyy confused. Is the sole purpose of CBTC just to eliminate standard signal blocks and replace them with moving blocks? Or will it also operate the train?. I'm lost.
CBTC is suppose to elimanate most wayside signals you see today.
The CBTC system monitors conditions ahead and set the maxium allowable speed accodingly. It allows trains to follow closer and therefore increaseing service.
The other thing is ATO- automantic train operation. I dont think that ATO will be implimented on the TA system anytime soon. MOst of the time what happens is the operator press a button and the control of the train is directed to a central computer system. The system controls train speed, braking, all without operator input.
This is what is used on transit systems like PATCO in Philly and the Baltimore Metro.
So for example, I'm operating the train under CBTC. When I take full power (aka wrapping around), the train will only go as fast as the computers tell it to. If the speed limit is 15, the train will only go as fast as 15 even though the controller is in full power?
Depends on the system. On the new R-160 which im sure is drive-by-wire, the CBTC code which is most likely tranmitted via the running rail, is read by the train's computer. The computer determines the max speed and therefore limits the speed to that. On the older trains where there is a direct machanical connection, most likely a alarm will go off if the speed is exceeded. Again this is only a assumtion.
This link to the Federal Transit Administration explains CBTC.
The L doesn't share trackage with any other line. The 7 doesn't either but since it was decided not to make Corona R142 compatible (yet), they couldn't do it there.
[As to why the L line? I suppose that it had characteristics deemed necessary to 'prove' the abilities of CBTC technology in NYC.]
The L is an easy line to institute CBTC because of it's 'isolated' characteristics as an R/T line. Also it's single track running in either direction also makes for simplistic operation (it's like a 'giant shuttle line').
BMTman
R/T line? What does that mean?
Rapid Transit
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, I am an electronics communications professional. MY career, my employment and my future was in the dumps. I had heard the radio ads for Car Inspector many times, plunked down my fifty bucks and applied. Found that Signal Maintainer window was closed, sent an email......and the test was opened to me IF I made an immediate personal appearance with the completed forms and another fifty bucks. Cool, CBTC New Tech. Well, passed that test. Months later, passed CI test. Three weeks later, process for CI began. Now I'm CI, started with R142 shoe alignment and doing Redbird Carbody. Hey, it's good work with good people.
The CBTC project with R143s is at hold...the software and 2.4 gig transponders costing 137 Million Bucks will be replaced with a system developed by the European manufacturers of high speed rail utilizing inductive links every 100'......when the world is at peace. The 'L' project will go down in history with the R110's and LED bulb replacements. Nothing like getting down and dirty oiling Redbird door linkages. 'Let MTA get you there...Car Inspectors assure your safety.' Peter
I know people who graduate respectable universities, take out a college loan, and have to pay it off for years, while making less than a starting T/O to start. After 5 years, they are lucky to make $85,000. But look at the price they pay.
Not sure how old you are, but I probably graduated from college before you were born... and I don't make 85K, despite working in management for a major corporation, heading up a project team of over 100 people.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
he does resort to name calling when he is unbale to stress a point in a normal debate fashion.
Wha' chu talkin' 'bout stupid! (just kidding)
It's not that I couldn't stress this point. His point was that there was no reason to put in the WD's at Queens Plaza because accidents are not commonplace. My point is that if he actually looked around the system, that's not the only place where WD's have been installed, and the TA actually has some slight idea of what they're doing. The thing is sometimes he just makes me angry when he just starts referring to the TA as a bunch of idiots. Now if LuchAAA had proof for something, then I wouldn't be so 'angry'. But calling the TA a bunch of idiots is calling quite a few guys (including my dad) I know idiots.
>>As far as the Queens Blvd IND goes, the real test with these WDs will come when the "V" kicks in, and you have the probable bottleneck at the scissors crossover at Queens Plaza. They are going to have to time arrivals to the minute in the rush hour headways.<<
Just think IND 8th av Canal st station.
Hey idiot! Show my where I call the TA a bunch of idiots! I complained about the trains moving slower and slower everyday. I did not resort to name calling. I did not even imply that the TA is a bunch of idiots. So stop telling people that I said things I never said. Stick to the facts.
>>I did not even imply that the TA is a bunch of idiots<<
AND WHERE DID I CALL YOU AN IDIOT!?!? You have stated in posts that I have referred to you as an idiot in this thread. Now then, you implied that the TA did not know what they were doing and had no reason to put WD's on Queens Blvd. I'd have to say you think they must be morons then, eh?
>>Stick to the facts.<<
Make sure you do the same.
>>J train starts calling me an idiot, and insulting me<<
No. If you look back, I clearly said that you should try to use your goddamn brain, because, well you should. I didn't call you a name. I didn't say that you were stupid. I said that you should try using your brain. I'm sure that you're a smart man when you actually think before you speak.
>>He went out of his way to get attention from subtalkers.<<
No. I could really care less about other people responding to it. I titled the post what the content matter was about. Evidently, it disturbs you to see your handle in the index, so I changed the title again.
>>and you or any subtalker can look back to the beginning of this, it was you who insulted me first.<<
And of course, it's you who started up with the crap about how New York City Transit is as dumb as they come. They know what the hell they're doing.
>>Every time I am slightly critical of the TA, you jump in as though you somehow represent the TA, or if my complaints are somehow directed at you.<<
You're right. I'm sorry if I jump on you everytime you make a generalization about the management of my father's job. Considering he's practically a part of that management...
>>By creating the topic about me,(The TA is out to get LuchAAA) as if any subtalker needs to see LuchAAA as a topic, shows that you still have an unnatural obsession with me, and my posts. It's funny when Train Dude does it, and people kind of expect it from him now. Heck, looking back, it was obvious that my response to his LIRR post would undoubtedly cause him to come back strong at me.<<
Good God LuchAAA did it bother you that much to see it up there? Fine, I changed it. But know this: 1. You're name is not the only one to appear in titles. 2. Train Dude is not the only person to put peoples names in headings. Recently, I had a more relaxed debate with American Pig about the BMT. The original title was "The BMT is back". I changed it to "The BMT is whack" and eventually "The BMT is a sham" Of course, you know what happened. Somebody changed it to "J trainloco is a sham". Sorry LuchAAA, There are plenty of others who either get their names put in titles (popular ones were American Pig, MrX2001 and Train Dude). Probably more than you. Hell, I've probably been in more titles than you.
>>BUT YOU ARE NOT TRAIN DUDE. You're not as funny. You're not as witty. And you certainly are not as informed as he is. So stop trying to be him. Leave my name out of the subject headings in the future. That's Train Dude's job.<<
I just explained about the names, and How train Dude is not the only person to do this. So, Again, i'll stress: ANYONE can put ANYBODY'S handle in a title. Sorry if you didn't know that.
And as far as being informed, your one to talk. Now, considering where my father works, how informed do you think I am(about MOW more-so than RTO)
Now, considering where my father works, how informed do you think I am(about MOW more-so than RTO)
About as well-informed as I was 20 years ago when my father worked in MOW - which is to say, not very.
>>About as well-informed as I was 20 years ago when my father worked in MOW - which is to say, not very.<<
Guess it's good that we don't have the same father then.
There you go again. Show me where I say the NYCTA is as dumb as they come. SHOW US! Just because I complain about some GO's or WD's?
This is taken from post 272648:
The Queens Blvd line is a crime against humanity. Now they have all sorts of obstacles to slow down trains entering Queens Plaza.
The reason? The city is determined to slow down service at any cost.
Someone told me safety is a concern. Maybe they're right. Maybe all the derailments at QP, resulting in hundreds of fatalities, and thousands of injuries has forced the city to slow down trains in this area.
Or maybe some genius with nothing better to do, just wants to look important, and creates precautions where they're not needed, just so the TA looks like they're on top of things.
Look closely at the 4th paragraph (doesn't really matter, you insult the TA in every paragraph.) I'd say you think they're either dumb or sadistic.
"Someone told me safety is a concern. Maybe they're right. Maybe all the derailments at QP, resulting in hundreds of fatalities,
and thousands of injuries has forced the city to slow down trains in this area.
Or maybe some genius with nothing better to do, just wants to look important, and creates precautions where they're not
needed, just so the TA looks like they're on top of things. "
You know, you're absolutely right.
And here's another example of stupid, unnecessary "precautions." Why on earth does the system need block signals? I mean, how when do trains rear end each other? This is just some stupid guys at the TA who think they know how to run a subway system delaying trains to make it look like they're on top of things. All this because they want to slow down service to demonstrate their overbearing power over commuters. What a bunch of stupid know-it-all jerks.
(Sarcasm goes off now.) The point of a precaution is to prevent disasters, and it would seem better to prevent them before even one occurs. And maybe, just maybe, the TA has a reason for the delays it may be causing on the Queens Blvd. line. I do, however, agree with you that it would be much better if they made their reasons absolutely clear.
Seth
That's why I stick to the good, fast and reliable 7 train. Sure the Redbirds are old, but at least they get you to your destination in the same day!
Did I miss something while I was on vacation? What derailments and fatalities are we talking about?
Being a transplant to the NW coast I have a good deal of trouble finding information on the status of the subway system since the 11th. This site has been a valuble source of information. The news seems to focus on ground zero from above. There has been very little on what is the situation below. Please keep up the good work in bringing any further info and pictures to light.
We're always glad to help out. That's what we're here for.
Bill "Newkirk"
Story about 2 incidents affecting subway service this morning.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Partial collapse"
!!!!
Don't you just hate when you wake up, and there's no wall anymore!
Yes, I could see it putting a crimp in your day.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry about the one word message but:
Where?
Click the Link.
I found it, thanks. I didn't see the link when I first looked at your posting
From: http://www.mbta.com/newsinfo/press/pressview.cfm#609
The Board of Directors for the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority today voted to
accept an offer from the City of Boston for 6.7 acres of land along Eagle Street in East Boston.
Abutting Chelsea Creek, the parcel is being sold to the City's Department of Neighborhood
Development for $1.4 million.
Secretary of Transportation Kevin J. Sullivan, who serves as chairman of the board, says the
transaction is a winner for everyone involved. "The MBTA strengthens its commitment to increase
non-fare revenue while the City of Boston gets a prime piece of real estate for a variety important
uses," said Sullivan. The City has proposed to utilize the property for a Public Work facility, a
Police Station, an Emergency Medical Services Station, and a public park.
Owned by the MBTA since 1894, the property was originally developed as a power generating
substation and car barn for electric trolleys. After decades of use as a bus garage and
maintenance facility, the buildings were closed and subsequently demolished.
MBTA General Manager Robert H. Prince, Jr. says the land transfer is another example of the
T's desire to be a good neighbor. "Once it's been determined that a piece of property is no longer
needed for transit purposes, we look at ways to benefit the public's interest," said Prince. "The
City's plans for this parcel certainly meet that criteria."
Also today, T Directors voted to transfer - at no charge - three quarters of a mile of abandoned
railroad right-of-way to the Town of Acton. The Town plans to use the land for public
recreational purposes.
alright it's Boston but They are still good photos
http://www.mbta.com/newsinfo/geninfo/projects/transitway/s00cn09.cfm
Does anyone have an update on the work being done at Exchange Place? As of 10/3/01 I saw a pumping company and a railroad construction company's vehicles parked outside, but no update on what is going on or a projected reopening date.
Even if they finish the pumping and any cleanup, what kind of service could they run there? A shuttle between Grove and Exchange?
Defintely wouldn't be between just Grove and Exchange. Hoboken & Exchange, with psgrs from Newark transfer at Newport seems more practical. Perhaps a Exchange-JSQ shuttle as well. This would solve the problem of getting people from Jersey to the JC waterfront office complexes. The traffic down there is a nightmare. Companies are running shuttle buses between the Exchange Place area and Grove, and between Ex. Pl. and Hoboken, these could be done away with. I figure use four-car trains with motormen at each end to facilitate quick turnaround (pull in eastbound, reverse into pocket, reverse into westbound track, reverse heading west to Hoboken or JSQ.)
Dave,
Considering what is happening at Newport starting at the end of January 2002. Do you think it is going to be a practical use of the station?
For those who don't know - J.P. Morgan Chase & Co (for which both Dave (as a consultant) and myself (27 years with the firm) work for) will be moving about 2500 people from downtown Manhattan to 2 new buildings in the Newport area. This will start January 2002 and continue to the end of the year. Even if half the people use PATH, the station is going to be a nightmare.
Hmm true. A possibility would be to operate service like this:
Optimal:
1. HOB-33
2. HOB-WTC
3. JSQ-33
4. NWK-WTC
Current:
1. HOB-33
2. NWK-33
3. HOB-JSQ
Proposed (with side platform at Newport open)
1. HOB-33 all times
2. NWK-33 all times
3. HOB-EX.PL. weekday daytime
4. JSQ-EX.PL. weekday daytime
5. JSQ-EX.PL-HOB round robin (off peak)
No transfer needed for passengers coming from Newark, Hoboken, or 33rd Street to reach Newport like current service; no transfer at Newport from Hoboken/Newark to reach Exchange Place (keeping those people off the platforms at Newport); People coming FROM 33rd TO Exchange Place and vice versa would have to transfer at Newport on the same platform, or encouraged to change at Grove instead. How does that sound?
P.S. Newport was already a nightmare before 9/11 during morning rush. Chase would not have made it *too* much worse since it would be all "reverse" commuting. Newport has enough stairways that exiting passengers have enough pathways out (no pun intended)
Anyone got any idea how to get people in and out of Grove Street?
I live nearby and the sheer volume of people trying to exit the station (presumably to go to Exchange Place) is frightening at rush hour. If it was anyplace else, the fire dept. would shut it down.
I heard a car inspector talking about a walled-off exit at one end of the platform which was being considered (before 9/11) to be put back in use. He also spoke of PATH running 10-car trains to WTC. I guess that's out of the question for a little while.
I'm a PATH rider whose commute used to be somewhat pleasant, and now is just downright yucky.
PPS
I was a daily Grove commuter myself (I live on Wayne St.). Haven't used it during rush hour since the attack. The exit at the far end isn't much use, it would surface in the middle of the intersection of Columbus Avenue and Marin Blvd. You might have heard them considering to open that exit space up to lengthen the platforms but I don't really see how it could be used as an exit again.
Regarding that exit, you can see the detail of it here. It is a bit tight where it came up to street level, as the two downtown tubes move together just past Marin (shown as Henderson on this drawing). But there should be sufficient clearance above the tubes to extend the walkway to the eastern edge of the road, since they are 2 flights down at that point and turning downward.
The redevelopment plan for the block formerly occupied by the PATH yard has a bonus provision if an entrance is provided at the northeast corner of Marin and Columbus (formerly Henderson and Railroad). Presumably the author checked with the Port Authority and determined the geometrics were doable.
Any one have any idea on what to do to improve access/egress from Christopher Street. The other day entering traffic backed up 3 blocks.
Looks like the PA has a solution(?) for exiting traffic in the AM rush: There is no entry to the station allowed:
Christopher St.
This is a temporary measure, The notice says "improvements are planned."
How do you plan to turn trains at Exchange Place?
wayne
NEVER MIND! I just read a previous post explaining this. Sounds do-able, but mighty unwieldy.
wayne
Interesting. Which downtown buildings are these? I worked for Manny Hanny back in the days before it became part of Chemical etc at 55 Water Street. With all the mergers JPM/Chase must have a couple of billion square feet:
1 New York Plaza, 4 New York Plaza, 55 Water Street, Chase Plaza, 60 Wall St. What did I miss?
John
Basically we are letting the leases at 55 Water and 52 Broadway expire. The people @ 60 Wall are going to new buildings on Park Av (don't ask). Most of the depts at 2 Chase Plaza will go to Newport and will be replaced by Retail Banking support groups.
Chase sold 1 New York Plaza years ago.
BTW - none of this is secret information. Most of the Real Estate market already knows this.
Yeah, the New York Times has run several (well, at least two) articles about JP Morgan Chase's real estate dealings since the announcement of the merger. That's how I find out things even though I work there! :-)
I knpw they're plugging up those PATH tunnels at WTC. Will they ever be reopened?
Eric D. Smith
Lets put it this way, the city (and the NYC/NJ region) is not going to survive in the long run without the PATH, not with 70,000 people a day formerly riding into WTC. So, I think it's a safe bet the answer is yes.
I figure use four-car trains with motormen at each end to facilitate quick turnaround (pull in eastbound, reverse into pocket, reverse into westbound track, reverse heading west to Hoboken or JSQ.)
PATH trains don't have motormen, they have Engineers. Of course there are no FRA rules saying that you can have a quanified engineer operate as the conductor and then switch jobs w/ another qualified engineer, even mid trip.
The real concearn is what all that water is doing to the PATH tubes under the Hudson. H2O and Iron don't work well together.
H2O and Iron don't work well together.
It isn't as bad as all that. Some of the ring segments are steel, BTW. Anyway, the tunnels are in the muck at the bottom of the river, not in rock (for the most part) and thus the outsides have been exposed to brine over the years.
This picture is of a ring joint of a similar age and construction. This is after over 30 years of exposure to the same water. The tunnel it is in is still safe and in use. So I wouldn't worry much about the short-term effects of water on the tunnels themselves. Of course, all of the electrical stuff (lighting, signals, phones) needs to be replaced, as do the ejector pumps. And the trackbed needs to be evaluated.
Dougherty's "Tracks" book shows Tunnel-L just as a trailing siding if heading eastbound to Exchange Place station from Grove Street. I suppose its purpose was to get a sick train out of the way. It does not connect to the westbound track according to this book, and could not be used to relay trains.
If that's the case, any use would be limited to two AM rush hour trains: the 1st into the siding, the other to leave in the station until rush hour ends, and then they get backed out and wrong-railed to Grove Street.
The function of the pocket is much "older" than you think and was indeed connected to both eastbound and westbound tracks. In the days of the PRR terminal at Exchange Place (surface) the passenger load between there and Hudson Terminal was a lot more than now requiring short turn trains between the two stations. The pocket track was used to turn these trains back to New York. The track connection to the pocket from the Westbound track was removed a while ago but the tunnel is still there.
How hard would it be to put back ? That could be the answer to all this crowding at Pavonia, Grove Street, and now a local private bus (something with Greenville in the name) is to start running Grove Street shuttles for 50 cents.
FYI it is Lafayette and Greenville.
Mike
"Mr MAss Transit"
Assuming the station is dried out enough for maintenance crews, it shouldn't take that long, if all the parts needed are available in the maintenance yard stock. However, if you've read any of my previous posts on the subject, it sits on a rather nasty lazy S and thus needs a full set of guards. So there may not be a stock set of parts that could be used.
Also, from my previous posts, it isn't useful unless it connects to both the eastbound and westbound track. In order to avoid a huge number of out-of-service moves, it needs to be re-engineered. The easiest solution so far is the one I floated, to tie the stub end of the pocket into the westbound track, so trains don't need to go out of service - they'd just pull into Exchange, passengers would get off/on, and the train would change ends, operate west out of Exchange into the pocket, then proceed through the new connection into the westbound tunnel.
Note that the above precludes any service to Hoboken/33rd, as the tracks to Pavonia/Newport split to the *outside* of the tracks to Grove.
If any of this isn't clear, somebody should say "Scan!" and I'll find the appropriate blueprint and scan the relevant part.
olay. please scan. Thank you in advance
Ok. Here's a quick-n-dirty snap with my cheezy Olympus camera. The blueprint is huge (20' x 3', give-or-take). West is left (natural orientation) and the station itself is barely visible to the extreme right. Tunnels E and F turn northward off the left edge of the picture to join up with the tunnels heading to Pavonia from Grove. Tunnels G and H run westward to Grove. Tunnel L is the pocket, and what I propose is to tie the left end of it into Tunnel G. Trains would arrive on H, pull into the station, drop off and pick up, and pull back out onto L and through L to G.
For an overview of how all the underground tunnels are laid out, look at this Port Authority map from 1965.
Thank you, It's very interesting.
Thanks for the PATH map. It should be archived here at nycsubway.org, if it isn't already. It's *wonderful*.
Regarding the pocket - unless there has been a massive amount of work since 9/11, it isn't usable. First, there is no switch on the eastbound side, though there is rail in the pocket itself. That's not too much work to fix. But there's a signal shed and electrical distribution blocking the roadbed from the westbound side into the pocket which would need to be moved.
Plus, the move would be a PITA - operate into Exchange, change ends to move into the pocket, change ends to move out of the pocket, change ends to proceed westbound. The only way this would make sense would be to have a pair of hostlers, one at each end, and let them deal with jockeying the train around while the engineer and conductor walk to the other side of the station and wait for the train to be placed. And wait... and wait...
See my earlier post regarding an alternative, connecting the stub end of the pocket to the westbound track and running service only on the eastbound platform at Exchange.
Of course, one of the two reasons the pocket was disconnected was due to a fire in there some years ago, with some PCB contamination (or so I'm told by a reliable source). That would have to be evaluated as well. The other reason is that the double switches on the S-curve were somewhat dangerous.
The use of the pump truck is obvious. I wonder if the RR construction co. is going to lay track in the stub-end tunnel (the "Penn Pocket"). Of course that would require moving the equipment presently in the tunnel.
Yesterday's Jersey Journal quotes Hudson County officials as saying there will be no Exchange Place PATH service for at least two years!!
from today's Boston Herald
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/toxi10042001.htm
From today's Boston Herald
http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/mbta10042001.htm
From today Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/277/south/Abutters_want_toxic_soil_cleaned_up_quickly_by_T+.shtml
From today's Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/277/metro/AG_sues_T_over_pollution+.shtml
From today's Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/277/metro/AG_sues_T_over_pollution+.shtml
.
It may be that the "bathtub" foundation is not in danger, after all. This improves the prognosis regarding rebuilding the foundation and repairing the subways...
Point your browsers at: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nyslur042398317oct04.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
Thanks for posting that, Ron.
Mueser acts as a sub on our big jobs, doing the pile and excavation design, although I don't think I've ever worked with Dan Hahn. I know that company well; they've got an office down on Third Avenue. Mueser's getting a lot of high profile emergency work. We've got a lot of work too, but it's more behind the scenes (200,000 ft3 of soil to be dredged out of the Hudson). Everyon in the community is pulling together on this one,
MATT-2AV
"NOBODY KNOCKS OVER A BUILDING IN MY TOWN!"
It is also good to see that they will undertake installation of additional reinforcement anyway. This should make the bathtub doubly safe.
Why does everyone refer to the WTC as the bathtub?
Never mind, I read the article and it said why.
I have some good news too. I visited my wife's office at the Federal Reserve. She now has a view of the Hudson River.
Well, I guess that really isn't good news. But there was no smoke in her building (last Friday was awful), and the pile of rubble is much, much smaller.
I apologize if this topic was already addressed...but I was wondering if anybody knew the reasoning behind the changes on the 7th ave line since the attacks? To my understanding, 2 and 3 trains are terminating at Chambers St. and running local from Chambers to 14th. And the 1 train is now running into Brooklyn.
So for us Brooklynites, it seems there is no longer direct express service up the West side. Does anyone know why these service changes were made? Why couldn't they just terminate the 1-9 at Chambers instead of S. Ferry, and keep the 2-3 service as is?
Does anyone know for how long this change will be in effect?
WS
Unless something changed in the past day of so, the 2 is running normal execpt that it is now a local for its entire length in Manhattan. The 3 is the the only 7th Avenue Express, running from its normal northern terminal at 148 and terminating on the south end at 14th Sreet (though I did see a few roll signs the other day that had Chambers Street as the Southern Terminal). The 1 is running local as usual but is extended to New Lots to replace the 3 in Brooklyn.
I don't have any inside knowledge, but I think the reasons are:
1) Obviously the #1 south of Chambers is out of service for a long time, so the 1 needs a place to turn around, so it is extened to Brooklyn using the New Lots terminal for turning around.
2) The express track is the only practical way to turn trains on 7th Ave (you cannot turn trains on the local tracks, you would be crossing from outside track to outside, and aside from the tie ups that would cause, I don't even know if the switchs in place would allow for it), the 3 continues as an express and uses the 14th street express tracks for turning around.
3) The 2 is a local since the express tracks are tied up for turning 3's, moving the 2 from express to local between 34 and 14 would just add to the confusion. I know there is a bit of a problem crossing 2's on to the local at 96, but its better than doing both a cross over of 2 from exp to local AND turning 3's at one station.
Hmm..that makes sense I think. But I still don't understand why they can't just run the 3 into Brooklyn as before, instead of terminating them at 14th (or Chambers).
I'm guessing is that there would be too much service into Brooklyn causing backups. #1 and #3 would be sharing the same tracks between
14th and New Lots (unless one of them turn back at Utica Avenue
like the #4).
Michael
You don't have that many cars or that much capacity.
The reason why is the following:
1. All 3 trains cannot run into Brooklyn.
2. The train that terminates in manhattan must be an express. At first it was the 1, but that required ALL 1 trains to cross infront of ALL 2/3 trains and vice-versa. Now, the only train that crosses at 96th is the 2 train, and it's similar to the situation at canal st on the ACE (in other words, it causes relatively few tie-ups.
I agree with Piggo.
Well summarized! :)
the 2 is running express uptown in manhattan. i caught one yesterday
r142man
2 all the way
until then
Lucky YOU!
N Broadway Line
NOT IN SERVICE!
That was a fluke, but I'm glad you lucked out.
I was on the 2 the other day going downtown, and at 34th St. the C/R asked the T/O over the PA what the next stop was! There was some confusion between them while they had an entire converstaion over the PA about the next stop. Everyone found that amusing.
I, the 1/9 at half capacity.
will atlantic ave be rebuilt connecting all trains in the area
and will the cross-brooklyn line ever be built?
Any new construction for the subway will probably be delayed.
Atlantic Ave is being rebuilt (as evidence by the construction there).
As for a cross-Brooklyn line, probably not. Brooklyn is pretty much covered with trains (with exception of Mill Basin and the area by Kings Plaza). Unless this "line" includes these areas, you will wait a while before anything is bulit.
Newsday.com has posted RealAudio tapes of the NYPD and FDNY response to the WTC collapse. This one has reports of people trapped in various subway stations and the searches that ensued.
I'll settle for a transcript. The link was too busy for me to access.
Much of the dialogue on the tape was difficult to understand. From what I could make out, there were reports of people trapped on trains or in stations at Park Place on the 2/3 and Wall Street on the 4/5. Something was said about Chambers Street on the IND, but I couldn't quite make it out. Finally, near the end of the 4-minute tape, there was a report saying that Rector Street (probably 1/9) had been searched and was clear.
horrible to hear ! .......almost could not bear it !!........omg ...!!
Would it be possible, once the WTC area is rebuilt, that there would be a transfer between the IRT subway (once the station re-opens, not for a few years), with the IND and BMT subways?
A free transfer between Cortlandt-R with Cortlandt-1 and Chambers/WTC-E&A would be a good idea. You better write to the MTA about it. We in here might say it's a great idea. But very few of us actualy work in the offices. By the time it filters its way upstairs, the lines will have been reopened and the idea long since discarded.
Anybody have a web address for someone above a VP for the subway?
There should be a massive mass transit facility there, to accomodate the following:
- Any prudent subway transfers, such as your suggestion.
- The 2nd Ave. subway.
- PATH
- LIRR direct downtown access.
- (If feasible) Metro-North
- light rail or shuttle bus service from ferries from NJ and Brooklyn
I reserve the right to expand the above-wish list at any given time. The more mass transit, the better. The two person per car minimum for driving into Manhattan during the morning rush should be made permanent.
And above all this, as I said before - a new World Trade Center, the same or bigger as before.
How about this for service changes on Nov. 11:
Reopen the Bergen Ave lower level on the Culver Line.
Run the E from Jamaica Center to Kings Highway on the Culver Line. The E runs normally from Jamaica Center to West 4th then from West 4th it would run on the F. It would operate express from Bergen-Kings Hwy. Weekday AM hours it would run express to Manhattan between Kings Hwy and Church Ave. Weekday PM express from Manhattan between Church and Kings Hwy. Except late nights E runs express between Church and Bergen.
F runs normally except there would be no trains terminating at Kings Hwy. It's replaced by the E.
Run the G between Court Square and Church Ave. G would go local from Bergen to Church terminating at Church Ave.
Run the J between Jamaica Center and Brighton Beach. The J could continue local to Brighton Beach instead of 95th Street.
Eliminate the "Q Diamond". It's a confusing train.
Run the Q express from Coney Island all the way to 179. It would run express on the Brighton and Broadway lines (57th-Canal), then through the 63rd Street tunnel and continue as an express all the way to 179 Street.
Bring back the R. It could operate normally between Continental and Canal Street making all stops. Then it could go express in Brooklyn between Pacific and 59th before terminating at 95th Street. The R would skip DeKalb.
Run the V local from Continental Av to 2nd Ave on the F Line via the 63rd street tunnel and the 6th Avenue Local.
I actually even checked the stops. I think there are enough trains to run it this way.
>>Eliminate the "Q Diamond". It's a confusing train.
Run the Q express from Coney Island all the way to 179. It would run express on the Brighton and Broadway lines (57th-Canal), then through the 63rd Street tunnel and continue as an express all the way to 179 Street. <<
Did I miss something? If the Q is express on the Brighton line then what train handles the local stops on the Brighton?
As far Bergen lower level is concerned, the lower level station is in no condition to be used on any regular basis.
Also the tower hasn't been fully repaired for all moves required through the lower level of Bergen.
According to his proposal, the J would run on the Brighton line.
But that doesn't make to much sense because that is a LOOOONG ride (for a local train to run at ALL times) from Jamaica Center to Brighton Beach/Coney Island. The amount of trains to have decent service on the line would be more than what is available.
When I wrote my last letter, I meant Nov. 11 changes in light of the World Trade Center Disaster. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure there IS an express to local and vice-versa track switch on the 4th Avenue line south of 59th Street on both sides. This would enable R Trains to run express in Brooklyn coming and going to Bay Ridge.
The J train going local on the Brighton Line to Brighton Beach would make three more stops than it does now going to 95th. Adding a couple of extra J trains (R-40's from the Q-diamond) could make up for the difference. The J still wouldn't be the longest ride in the system. The 1 going from 242 to New Lots has that distinction. At late nights the J could terminate at Broad and the Q could make all stops in Brooklyn to Coney Island.
The W would still run express between 36th and Pacific, skip DeKalb then go local after Canal to Astoria. But the Q could still go express even on nights and weekends in Manhattan. This would keep the existence of an Broadway Express, without a "Q Diamond". This would also give Queens Blvd riders a legitimate express train in Manhattan, something they don't have right now.
It's a shame that they haven't cleaned up the lower level of Bergen Street or fixed the tower because having a Culver Express would definitely help right about now. There is a stretch where the Sea Beach Line is about 7 blocks from the Culver. Having a Culver Express could lure some Sea Beach riders from the slower M train and maybe ease some crowding on that line.
I admit that my biggest worry about this plan would be the M train on 4th Avenue. How crowded would that train get?
"Having a Culver Express could lure some Sea Beach riders from the slower M train and maybe ease some crowding on that line."
This statement assumes that there is crowding on the Sea Beach Line. I've been riding M trains northbound from DeKalb Avenue in the morning and southbound to DeKalb Avenue in the afternoon. They've got plenty of room at DeKalb Avenue -- some people even can get seats there. If there's "crowding," it's probably from people connecting to/from W trains at 36th Street, in which case the thing's no more than a glorified shuttle (no offense to "Sea Beach Fred" or his fans intended -- I just calls 'em as I sees 'em).
David
You're right, there isn't much of a crowd on the Sea Beach Line. I should have just said "lure some riders from the Sea Beach Line".
Fair enough, but my point in addressing the issue at all (which I should have made clear before) is that if the Sea Beach M trains aren't crowded, I don't see why anyone need bother trying to pull people off them and onto another service (even a new/restored one, as the Culver Express would be) at all.
David
Sorry it took a while to answer.
The general idea was to get some Sea Beach riders (and maybe to a lesser extent some Brighton Riders) quicker access to midtown Manhattan. I felt that having an express on the Culver Line would give them an option. The M only goes to lower manhattan, and sometimes takes its time getting there. The hypothetical R 4th Ave Express on the other hand, would still have to cross the Manhattan Bridge, which can get very slow. An E train running through the Rutgers Tunnel on the F line is quicker. I'll be honest, I would like to see the Culver Express return personally because it appeared to be a good run.
As for the R express train delaying the M as some have stated, doesn't delays already happen once in a while with the J and M both trying to go local northbound after 59th Street in Brooklyn? If they both get to the 59th Street area, then they can switch one train first and then hold it at 59th for the other. On the southbound side, they can have the express leave first. The whole thing should take about 3 minutes. Since were dealing with only two lines here, more often than not there won't be delays.
By the way, I do not live anywhere near Bay Ridge (nor Staten Island). I only chose to bring back the R instead of the N because the W normally runs on the N in Queens, which it still does now. The Q does not normally run on the R in Queens. This R express would only last until lower Manhattan service return on the Broadway Line. Then the N would return as the 4th Ave Exp.
Sorry for the long response.
Having services cross each other is not a good idea from an operational standpoint. Yes, the Sea Beach can run local from 59th Street with relative ease (though the line defaults to express). However, I'd have to check to see whether the Fourth Avenue spur from 95th Street has a switch to the express track at 59th Street (I don't remember offhand). Remember also that whatever comes northward from 59th Street has to merge with the West End service(s) south of 36th Street, and being off schedule and (potentially) out of sequence at 59th Street can throw things off at 36th Street as well. Frankly, riding on both the Sea Beach and the Fourth Avenue (below 59th Street) is pretty light, relatively speaking, so I'm not sure it's worth all this at all.
As for the Culver Express, right now it's not feasible (north of, say, Church Avenue, that is) due to the lack of a fully functional Bergen Street Interlocking (the fire we've been talking about on SubTalk for the past couple of years...). By the time Bergen Street Interlocking is repaired, all of this will be moot anyway.
David
The Bay Ridge Branch of the 4th Ave line has switches south of 59th Street that would enable R Trains to go express. Another reason I wanted to have the R go express instead of local in Brooklyn is to avoid the utter chaos that would take place if it went local after the Manhattan Bridge. The only other place where you could switch to the 4th Ave local off the Manhattan Bridge is south of DeKalb, and it would HAVE to stop at DeKalb. This would have slowed down Q, M, and J trains and made a LOT of people upset. The R running express isn't so much about the passengers as it is about the switches available.
Good point about the R delaying the W, though at times the N Express used to slow down the W. Timing would have to be pinpoint to avoid delays. As for the Culver Express, can't the MTA, which pumped out gallons and gallons of water out of Franklin Street and once repaired a large hole on the Astoria line in a short period of time, clean up a station and fix a tower? I think Culver riders would be happy with a Culver Express and particularly an express that would directly take them to Port Authority and Penn Station. It would give them more options. Also people who get on the F's lower East Side stops, particularly Delancey Street, would probably not have to switch at West 4th for 8th Avenue service unless they go north of 50th Street.
There is a "X" diamond crossover south of 59 Street in Brooklyn on 2 and 4 tracks.
For the PM homebound rush, the only operational problem I see with the M running on the Sea Beach line is the passenger behavior issue of "I wanna be in the car closest to the stairway at the station where I get off." After 36th St. the only stations with a staircase/exit not by the first car are: 45th St., 20th Ave., and 86th St. Once you get to the open cut of the Sea Beach line, the only stations without an exit in the rear are Eighth Ave., 18th Ave., 20th Ave. and 86th St. So the first and last cars get hammered with a large load while the middle cars have lots of room. The 8 cars could handle the loading a bit better if some passengers would just give in and ride the middle cars.
I am just a rider that happens to love the NYC subway system, so I don't want to pretend to be an expert; but I frequent the new Broadway express service, and I don't think the Q diamond is all that confusing. At Union Square, for example, there are plenty of people that will cross over to it from the local if the cross platform transfer is available. As one who catches the s/b locals at 8th ave, I see the Q diamond pass us (it seems they hold the locals short of canal often in favor of the Q diamond), and it always seems pretty well packed. More so than some of the locals (I can catch a seat on the locals most days at 8th during PM rush)
Even if it is still, I suspect the regulars will figure it out in time. I think if it could be done over, the concept of the Q diamond as an express would have been better made clear by having it have be the train that did the Astoria express run instead of the W.
The other train-lettering conventions might have been considered too (make the W the yellow B Diamond, and give W to the Q diamond perhaps?). But the train itself, and its' route, seems defendable, and should be even more so over time.
I wish I could agree with ya, but on more than one occasion the Q Diamond has given me fits. While waiting at Canal Street, I ran into an R-68 that had a Q Diamond at the front but had circles on the side and signs which said it was heading to Forest Hills. The conductor said it was going express and then proceeded to go local. Another time I ran into an R-32 Q diamond which had no signs that said it was a diamond. They were all circles. I always felt that we didn't need a Q Diamond. I was in favor of returning the M as the Brighton Local to Brighton Beach, while running the Q express to Coney Island. While not "natural" in terms of track routes, I thought that would bring the best customer service to Brighton riders.
Under normal circumstances (July 22-September 11, 2001), Q diamond vs. Q circle is not that confusing. The Q diamond was running slant R-40s, and the Q circle was running R-68s (with an occasional R-68A). The trains both ran express along Broadway and terminated at 57th Street-Seventh Avenue. I don't recall seeing any incorrectly signed trains. Eventually (not too long from now) this will be the case again, but right now circumstances are not normal and cars are being put into service without much thought as to whether they have the correct (circle vs. diamond) signs in order to just get the service out on the road.
David
I used to be a daily NYC Subway rider before moving to the suburbs. It seems to me that the only way to to tell the differences between the express and local 'Q' services is by destination. The circle 'Q' southbound runs local and is going to Coney Island. The diamond 'Q' southbound runs express and is going to Brighton Beach...Hope this helps you out...
The confusion results with car assignments completely out of whack right now due to no N/R service. R32's do not have Q diamond side signs. Don't forget that the circle Q terminates at 57/7 during the late PM/midnite hours. Sometimes the signs are changed to 57/7 on the PM, but sometimes there is nobody on duty to change them back to 71/Forest Hills on the AM. When the N/R resumes, the Brighton Line confusion will become a thing of the past.
It's also a matter of people not doing their jobs. I boarded the north motor an R-32 Q local at Stillwell Avenue this afternoon (October 10). In addition to the #1 end HVAC unit being off (one of my pet peeves -- see, timers aren't the only things that get me angry!), the #2 end north destination sign read "57th Street." The Train Operator had plenty of time to go into the #2 cab and turn on the HVAC plus change the side sign, but did neither.
For the uninitiated, the #1 end of an R-32 has the Train Operator's cab; the #2 end has the Conductor's cab. It differs somewhat from car class to car class, especially those with some cars that have no cabs at all (just to keep us railfans on our toes, of course...).
David
I agree with you. You know I would have changed the sign and turned on the blowers. It is a fact of life that some t/o's just don't care.
I agree with the notion that crews aren't doing their job, though without a "Q Diamond" they wouldn't have to change signs as much (as you probably guessed by now, I'm not a big fan of the Q Diamond).
There is another question I have: Is running the Queens Blvd Local V on 53rd Street instead of 63rd Street, as the MTA plans to do, a good idea? Wouldn't this cause massive overcrowding on the E, which is express in Queens? From what I see people generally want to go home in a hurry during rush hours.
As for your second question. In their minds more service will help that problem (and I agree). What people disagree about is if this will increase or decrease the congestion at Roosevelt. Many people won't bother transfering for just one express stop and the chance to catch the local one ahead of them.
I used to live at 63rd and take the N (at the time) to 59th Lex to go uptown. Except for a the school kids almost no one got off at 74th and took the express to Queens Plaza hoping to catch that N trains leader. The same thing likely applies to Queens local residents that need 53/rd or 6th Ave. If you had a seat at 67th Dr. you'd have to be a moron or very late to give it up hoping to save a few minutes.
the logic of this plan of theres puzzles me. if the e and f went straight to 53rd as tehy do now, there'd be no potiental backup on the exp around 36th street. but with the v going 53rd and the f to 63rd, you get the potiental snarl at 36th on the express track, and the potiental problems of intergrating the v and e's at QP...
then again, while the n/w were both on te astoria line the potiental snarl at 39th av did not generally materialize (though ditmars went to shit, but that's a whole other thread...)
bottom line: it should be interesting.
I don't want to get into this again since it has been discussed to death on this board in the past. Suffice to say the new service plan will be a disaster due to all the switching moves at Queens Plaza. The reason the V will be via 53rd St. and the F via 63rd St. is because the V is a part time service and the F is 24/7. Therefore the basic service plan from eastern Queens is the E via 53rd St. and the F via 63rd St. +V & R operating from the AM rush into the late PM hours. Having the F via 53rd St. sometimes and via 63rd St. other times would be too confusing to the off peak riders.
There are three basic reasons to run the F via 63rd and the V via 53rd. First, it will spread the load: express passengers who aren't transferring at Lex will use the F, while passengers who are transferring at Lex will have the E, V, and R (or Q) to choose from. (Yes, everyone going far east prefers the express, but the 63rd Street connection adds Manhattan-Queens capacity on the local, not the express. Locals really aren't much slower than expresses.) Second, with only expreses through 53rd, G passengers who now have a one-seat ride to Queens Boulevard local stations will end up with a forced double transfer, two stations in a row, and only the R (or Q) will be available at Queens Plaza. Third, the planned arrangement provides new direct service to passengers traveling between 53rd Street and QB local stations.
Why would G riders have a double transfer? Isnt the V going to be the QB local? Isnt the V stopping at 23-Ely/Court SQ?
What David was saying is if the V went via 63rd St. a G rider wanting to go from one of the local stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza to a station south of Court House Square would have no choice but to take the R to QP change and take the E or F one stop to 23rd-Ely and then change for the G.
With the V running via 53rd the current G local riders can take it to 23rd-Ely and transfer to the G without having to go through the extra wait at Queens Plaza. Whether or not this ends up creating more delays than it solves due to the track switching between QP and 36th St. remains to be seen.
Didn't I hear there was a possiblity that the G would continue on to Continental during rush hours? Since I board from Bedford/Nostrand, I'm not looking forward to the extra transfer.
After-hours when the V isn't running the G is scheduled to go to Continental, but during regular daytime and early evenings you'll have to take the long walk from Court House Square to 23rd-Ely.
After-hours?? Who rides the G at late night? You can count on your fingers the amount of people who ride the G at 2 in the morning. You can bet there will be a lot of protest from the Greenpoint, Nassau, Bway & Metro. passengers during rush hours...those trains are standing room only.
Don't argue with me, argue with Jay Street -- they're the ones who decide the G, V and R couldn't operate together between QP and Continental from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. or so, but the G and R could at nights.
Is there any reason why the V can't be a one-way line? During the morning rush it would go from Continental to smith/9th then become a G train from Smith/9th to Continental. During the PM rush it would switch.
Great idea...but considering the Ta seems to want to get rid or reduce G service for some reason. Just because it doesn't have standing room only like some of the other lines doesn't mean it should be phased out or cut back from its original terminal due to low ridership. anyone who rides it during rush hours knows what I'm talking about.
There are many reasons.
What are they?
That was rude of me. I apologize.
Reason one: Confusion. How would the TA indicate such a one-way loop on the map?
Reason two: What about the passengers who need to go the opposite way around the loop? Tell them to go to Smith-9th and back? Every single day? (I don't have the ridership numbers but I suspect more people ride south on the G in the morning than ride north from the Greenpoint area to the Queens Boulevard line. To eliminate a transfer for the few, your proposal cancels service entirely for the many.)
Reason three: What about middays?
Really, I don't see the big deal in the Court Square transfer. It's far from the longest transfer in the system and it will even have a moving walkway (unlike longer and much more popular passageways in Manhattan). Transfers are never ideal but I don't see how to keep the G past Court Square without impeding service for the many more riders bound to and from Manhattan.
"Reason one: Confusion. How would the TA indicate such a one-way loop on the map?"
Let the people who make the maps figure it out. There may be good reasons for not having such a service but not having a way to show it on a map should not be one of them.
"Reason two: What about the passengers who need to go the opposite way around the loop? Tell them to go to Smith-9th and
back?"
I wasn't clear I meant to have the loop service be in addition to the current G train service that transit has planned.
"Reason three: What about middays?"
Split the difference, before 1:00 go one way after 1:00 go the other way.
The G doesn't need 1.5 times its current service (i.e., double in one direction). I'd say that 6th Avenue could use that service more than the G.
And what about passengers who need to get from 6th Avenue to 53rd Street when the V is only running south (and vice versa)?
The G doesn't need 1.5 times its current service (i.e., double in one direction). I'd say that 6th Avenue could use that service more than the G.
You're totally right. However, I am somewhat skeptical about the TA using 4-car "G" trains. Will that be enough?...
I'm guessing it is -- I don't think the half-length G will end up as crowded as many of the full-length trains elsewhere -- but I really don't know for sure. If not, cars can be added by pulling them off other lines (with appropriate adjustments). Hopefully any need for longer trains would be mild enough that it could wait for the R-143's to arrive en masse, freeing up R-40's and R-42's from the L. Furthermore, keep in mind that some G riders will find new routes to avoid the Court Square transfer. But we'll see what happens.
I'm not talking about the north part of the "G" train. The part south of the "L" line (that's what I consider the south) can see some decent ridership. Just today, I was unable to get on a "G" train at Clinton-Washington sts. If the 6-car G trains actually operate on time, then there's ample service. But with the 4 car arrangement? What if there's a delay? I'm going to begin using that bus transfer at Jay st again (instead of the G).
I also don't think that the R-42's from the L will help much on the "G" line.
As I said, I don't know. We'll see. I'm sure those of us who don't regularly ride the G will hear all about it here.
As for the R-42's, my point is that there will soon be more cars available. I don't know where they'll go (I doubt the TA has a final plan yet) but some might end up on the G (not necessarily R-42's themselves, but, for instance, the R-42's could stay in the Eastern Division, the now-excess R-40's could go to Coney Island, CI could send some of its now-excess R-32's to Jamaica, and so on).
Rush hour service will not be 4 car trains so don't expect additional crowding. At 2 am you could run a 1 car train and still get a seat.
Expect lots more 4 car sets in the next 5 years. A new financial urgency along with new trains that have good couplers will make this happens, slowly and surely.
Rush hour service will not be 4 car trains so don't expect additional crowding.
Then what will rush hour "G" trains operate? For the longest, they operated 6 car R-46. Now, isn't it supposed to be 4 car R-68's?
Only on the OPTO runs not all the time
No, no argument with you my friend, but it's sought of ridiculous for Jay St. to make that call, when you look at when the B, D & Q was running on the Sixth avenue express line. They could run all 3 trains together if they wanted to. Maybe even skip stop service should be explored.
I made the same argument months ago that the TPH for the B, D and Q between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center (or the circle Q, diamond Q and W between DeKalb and Prince right now) has to be higher than the combined TPH that a G/R/V trio would have been. Apparently the problem is not so much the merge between QP and 36th St. as with turning all three of the lines at Continental -- or at least, that seems to be the MTA's explanation.
Another thing: Running the (F) through 63rd St will seperate it from the (E) for more of its route. That's a good thing. That's going to help us (F) riders escape some of Queens Blvd's legendary delays.
:-) Andrew
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I thought that the V running local after going through 53rd Street would mean a mad rush hour on the E with the V being relatively empty (similar to the crush seen on 7 Express during rush hours and the 7 local being relatively empty). However I did not think about the three transfers that G riders would have to make between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza if they're heading to Brooklyn from Queens. That would be highly inconvenient for them. On the other hand, in comparison to Manhattan riders, they're not too many G riders out there.
I get quite amused when I read postings here in reference to express service to/from Bay Ridge. I suppose these are made by residents of Bay Ridge. The Fourth Ave. local track leads to/from Bay Ridge. Should the Bay Ridge service be via express, then you have the problem of the local and express cutting each other out at 59th St. interlocking when both the Bay Ridge and Sea Beach trains arrive to the interlocking at the same time, similar to the Brighton line where the operationally correct thing to do is to have the express terminate at Brighton Beach and the local terminate at Stillwell, which is done.
IIRC the Bergen street lower level was damaged when the MTA was doing construction on the upper level.Even if that's false they'redoing abspestos removal on the express tracks.
I don't thin the E needs to go to Brooklyn right now unless C service is suspended again.
I actually support the G going to Church street.Though I thik that was tried before.
If the J ran to Brighton Beach then what would go to 95 street?
No.The is the fastest route to getting me to work in the morning.And is the A confusing(Queens bound A to Lefferts blvd,Far Rockaway or Rockaway park)?
The Q could make W stops and make that same route.But which train would run local in Manhatthan and Brooklyn?
I don't think the R can run express in Brooklyn.Though since were getting rid of the W the R can run over the Bridge.
The F is running via the 63 street line.
His plan is when normal service re-opens (i.e. N/R resume service)
It's Church Avenue, which is (as I said many times) a proper terminal for a subway line.
It was last tried in the early 70s, and stopped in 1976, as a rush hour only service.
Why would you need the "J" to run down Brighton? Did you want to displace the two "Q" services, or add the "J" as a third service?
If you get rid of the "W", who is going to mind the West End?
Reopen the Bergen Ave lower level on the Culver Line.
There's a subway at Bergen Avenue? This is wonderful news! No more crappy slow bus for me!
You can't have a 4th Ave express train running to 95. It's going to slow down the southbound M trains. They have to use a switch to get to Sea Beach and the R also has to use the switch to get to 95. If you're going to run exp on 4th ave, it should go via sea beach.
I agree with your general idea of Q running express in all 3 boroughs. However, there are several problems with running such a service at this time, before the MB has both sides open. One of the problems with having all the Brighton locals sent downtown would cause massive overcrowding on the express.
You're right about the express probably going to be over-crowded. But the "Q Diamond" is already over-crowded during rush hours, partially because it's the only Broadway Express and partially because a number of 4th Avenue riders use it to get to DeKalb. However, if people begin to realize (or are informed) that a Brighton J makes many of the same stops (or has nearby stops) that the 4/5 does in lower Manhattan they may stay on the J, instead of getting off at Atlantic to get the 4 or 5 (which many do).
Q Brightliner,
You (and those who saw the flaw) were right, and I was on crack. While you can get away with sending Brighton Locals into lower Manhattan during the evening rush, the morning rush is a totally different animal. Q Locals to my surprise were absolutely packed during the morning rush. I also hear that both Q's are usually packed during the morning rush. Sending the Brighton Local into lower Manhattan would mean death for those riding the Brighton Express. I guess we need two trains heading into midtown. When the other side of the Manhattan Bridge opens, I would still like to see the Q go express in three boroughs.
I guess this also shows a need for a Culver Express, the line which parallels the Brighton. Having an express could draw some riders off the Brighton and maybe help with the congestion.
P.S.: I don't smoke crack just for the record.
What they should do is run the Q Diamond Mon-Sat Express. The Q Circle via Tunnel when the Diamond is running, when it is not then run it via Bridge. Just like they did before Christie St
Bob, I think you missed the point here. Having only the express going to midtown would result in massive overcrowding. It did in the mid-60s before Chrystie, and ridership is up since then. Probably in your days, with the Triplexes and their voracious appetite for crowds on the express, that would have been sufficient. With both sides of the bridge open, I would favor Brighton services as follows: Q from Brighton Beach, via Brighton Express to Broadway Express to Queens Express, including Hillside Av. to Jamaica, 11 tph (northbound in morning rush). D from Coney Island, via Brighton Local, 6th Av. express, Concourse, 7 tph, J, M, or Z from Coney Island, via Brighton Local, Nassau St., etc., 6 tph.
I agree with you during Rush Hours 3 lines on the Brighton, Q via Bdwy Exp, D via 6th Local Bklyn, and M via Nassau St. The D 24/7 Q Mon-Sat 6A-10P M M-F 6A-9P
I would hope that once the MB problems are solved that the V would provide the bulk of the rush hour service on the Culver, running Kings Highway to Continental Av (BTW I believe it preferable to run it as 8th Av. local rather than 6th Av. local). The F would run as Culver express, but with fewer trains per hour than now, but the number of F + V then would be greater than now.
If the E and V both run via 8th Avenue, there will be no service between 6th Avenue and 53rd Street.
Also, why give three locals to 8th and only one to 6th? I suppose the V could run local while the E runs express (and swap the E for the C in Brooklyn to avoid the two crossing paths at Canal).
Will there be a V or will the Q continue to run to Queens?
At one time there were two Brighton locals. The QB went over the bridge, and the QJ went downtown.
The QB only ran during rush hours, I think something like that might still work.
I agree. I believe that division of Brighton services would work just fine again and would be possible to re-introduce once both sides of the MB open.
Pardon my long absence. I read your post couple of time and trying figure out a solution based on what u've said. From what i've read I think your service plan are bit confusing. But u've made some interesting suggestion and points. And Now, I would like add something to that
Eliminate the "Q Diamond". It's a confusing train.
Thats a good one. The TA should use Diamond "T" instead
J to Brighton Beach? It don't think its a good idea to have 2 local trains and 1 express train on the same route-because that may build up a traffic during rush. But I rather see J running to 95th street with R!
Run V to Continental Ave to 2 AVE. via 63rd tunnel with F. Well, the F could use some help. But, how does E gonna handle all the work at 53rd tunnel route by itself. The line is always jam pack on weekdays.
And, whats taking the TA so long to start the V? I thought they suppose to run in early or late August? They might as well start the V now, since the R is still out. They might as well use the V to replace R instead of Q.
As far as G are concerned. I would like to see G running between continental ave and church ave and R terminating at 36th Street Brooklyn on weekends.
The service plan for Nov. 11th has been finalised and the jobs are being picked by the crews. The Nov. 11th starting of the pick date has been delayed to 12/9/01.
Why all the need for service changes? I guess you all love switch capability quizes, or something. I'd love to see a Culver express, but I doubt theres need for it. Hey, Sea Beach hase express track beds, we might as well bring that back. And Chambers street has all sorts of stuff that hasn't been used since the els came down. Can't we get some express service on the 3rd Ave El? (Wait, is the 2nd Ave line supposed to go through Chambers? It should.) Put the constuction workers under 2nd Ave, not cleaning up Bergen St. And, if you all want a real interesting idea: As part of the 1 reconstruction south of Chambers, build a new tunnel to Red Hook, with a station on Columbia St. some where. Connect it to the G coming out of the tunnel after Bergen St. (New train bypasses Carol St.) Now the 1 runs from the Bronx, through Manhattan, into Brooklyn and on the Crosstown Local up to Court Sq. in Queens. No more G on Queens Blvd. Now Brooklyn Crosstown service continues to Manhattan. Now, subway service to Red Hook. Run IRT cars on the whole thing, with some sort of gap fillers on the G platforms. If Bergen St. can't accomodate IRT rolling stock and R-46s, then we should run the new 1 train through Bergen St lower level. Refurb it for new 1 service to Brooklyn and Queens, not for Culver express service. (If someone writes back to tell me that theres no switching capability to run Crosstown trains through Bergen Lower, my head might explode. With all the new constuction I've proposed, they could re-work whatever at Bergen. Ireally wanted to run Culver locals through Bergen lower, but then there'd be no service to Carrol St.)
In order for the R to skip DeKalb, it would have to be via bridge due to the track arrangements. Your proposals would reguire a humongous number of additional cars.
This is kind of late in saying so, but, in light of the recent subway changes, we now have an RJ train. The only thing is that it no longer goes to 168th Street in Jamaica for obvious reasons. It runs all times except late nights and is signed (J) because there is no (RJ) on the signs.
Also several years ago TA did away with the double lettered lines.
I wonder in the old days what they would call the current M. MN? NJ?
QJ & RJ was Southern|Eastern Divsion, so today's M would be NM.
There was some controversy, but W lost NM to AL.
The last Heritage sleeping car was removed from the Three Rivers consist upon its arrival at New York Penn Station on Octobre 1st. Both 3 Rivers trains now have modern Viewliner cars. The last Heritage "Cypress Grove", was built by Budd for use on the Sunlet Limited back in the day with the Southern Pacific. Her sisten car "Beech Grove" was receltly deadheaded to Chicago.
Nothing was said of what would become of these two cars. If I were Amtrak I would use them on another sleeper service, maybe as a lower cost alternative to the "First Class" cars. Maybe they could free up some sleepers for restored Broadway Limited service.
They can't be used on another because of their toilets - they were outlawed. They were only permitted on the 3R route anyway. If Amtrak were somewhat more assertive or proactive, they could have sought a waiver extension given the sharp upsurge in ridership since 9/11.
what is wrong with their toilets?
They're "hopper" toilets, i.e. they dump directly onto the tracks. That's illegal now. The 5 year waiver extension was only for the Three Rivers route and ran through 10/1/2001. The Heritage dorm cars have 2 chemical toilets, with whatever private room toilets capped. There is no such law in Canada, which is why 5 Amtrak 10&6 cars are running Winnipeg-Churchill.
You mean those Heritage toilets were still dumping right onto the tracks? I wonder how likely any person walking the tracks was to find a souvenier from those cars? Couldn't Amtrak have just retrofitted the tiolets? It's cheaper than buying new cars.
Today is the 46th Anniversary of the Brooklyn Dodgers first and only Baseball World Championship title. They defeated the Yankees 2-0- behind Johnny Podres. To those of you who are Brooklynites, or were or know of someone who followed those Dodgers, the real Dodgers, I salute you. I also salute myself because, believe it or not, I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers ever more than Coney Island or the Sea Beach.
No comment
Today, as for all October 4th's silence is golden Robert.
Of course, October 3 marked the 50th Anniversary of Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world". The story goes that some Dodger fan put a tape recorder by his radio and recorded Russ Hodges' account, then turned the tape over to one of the broadcasting networks. He had hoped to get Hodges' account of the last out as the Dodgers won, but we all know what happened there: "Branca throws....there's a long shot....I think it's going to be, I believe...THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!! Bobby Thonpson hit it into the lower deck of the left field seats, The Giants won the pennant, and they're going crazy. They're going crazy. THEY WONNNNNNNNN!!!!!!" Leo Durocher maintained, until he died, that he had no recollection of what happened. His mind just vapor locked.
So Fred, can you remember where you were when it happened? I heard it was as though an atomic bomb had been dropped on Brooklyn.
Thank You Steve, and who could not forget 1941-47-49-52-53-56. Yankees 6 Dodgers 1 Fred forgets, he can just remember 1 Year 55, and last year Yanks over Mets.
Fred never forgets. He just tries to bury that part ofthe past from his mind. He succeeds most ofthe time except when some rotten Yankee fan reminds him of it.
Yankees win again another AL East, where are the Mets now?
I saw Brighton Beach Memoirs last night. I hated that Jewish boy. You know why? Of course, the little bastard was a Yankee fan. A Yankee fan in Brooklyn. To hell with Neil Simon.
I ve tell you for years. There were a lot of Yankee Fans in Brooklyn during the 50s. BTW the Yankees had a 1st Basemen up for a drink of water in 1944-45. Namned Rosenthal. Maybe that s why my brother became a Yankee fan and passed it on to me
I know exactly where I was on that dark day. I left our auditorium after the top of the 8th inning with the good guys leading 4-1, and was told by a friend on the school's playground that Newcombe had blown the Giants down in the bottom of the 8th. I thought we were in. We were to play a soft ball game that afternoon ( we didn't play football on concrete, only at the park). Anyway, this guy John Perno who I didn't like and was a Giant fan, walks out on the field and I ask him who won. He only said: "The Giants 5-4." I thought he was bullshitting me when a bunch of guys showed up and started razzing me because there was no greater or more rabid Dodger fan in Long Island City than me. But the ironic thing was that Perno said nothing about the Thomson home run. I didn't know about the dramatics until I got home. It was a real crappy evening and an even crappier winter. But Brooklyn won four of the next five league titles, so they got even. The Giants were run out of town after the 1957 season with hardly a tear shed, while the Dodger passing that same fall was marked with both anger and grief.
Buffalo Chips, O Malley left Brooklyn for the same reason Stoneham, and he got a Multi Million Dollar Stadium Free. There were still lots of Giant Fans left in NYC also.
Bob, Bob, Bob! The fact is the Giants weren't drawing anything but flies when they were forced to leave for better pickings. They barely drew 600,000 fans their last two years in that dump they played in. What's more, they weren't even the most popular team in their borough of Manhattan. According to a survey taken in 1956, Northern Manhattan was heavily Yankee, and, believe it or not, South Manhattan was predominantly for the Dodgers. In Brooklyn they drew 1.2 million fans in 1956 and over a million in their last year there in 1957. The Dodgers had tons of fans in Brooklyn, much of south Queens and Manhattan, and they were the most popular team in Staten Island. Whatthe hell are you talking about anyway? The Dodgers were missed, the Giants hardly at all except for their diminishing minority of fans.
The Giants were losing their fan base mainly to the suburbs, but O'Malley was the one who talked Stoneham into moving out to the West Coast with him, so the Dodgers would have at least one rival closer than St. Louis, 1,800 miles away.
Since my parents were Giants fans, they had their own reason to hate O'Malley. He was the brains behind the whole scam, even though the Giants had far more of an excuse to leave the area than the Dodgers did. Stoneham should have just let Wally the Weasel go on west and taken the Flushing Meadow ballpark the city was offering, because the Giants never had a fraction of the success the Dodgers did in their move west (at least until Pac Bell was built last season).
Fred......If the Giants had only stuck it out at the PG for a couple of years, look at the players that came up through their system by the late 50s-early 60s: McCovey, Alou, Marichal along with Mays and a rejuvenated pitching staff. They were an instant winner once they moved west. Had they moved into Shea Stadium, they would have owned NY because NY was always a National league town.
Carl M.
If NY was a National league Town, where have the Yankees been for the past 99 years, how many penants did they win, after a loosing team for the 1st 22 years?
If the MannyB flip had not occured, Broadway would be cut off from Brooklyn completely. Maybe those people who complained about the new Q and W trains should be a little happier since they now have service to Manhattan.
Now, what would you do if the north side was open and the south side was closed?
B Division Only, A Division SAME
Normal is pre 7/22 service
Same is current pattern
A-Same
B-Normal except CI to 34th late nites
C-Same
D-Normal
E-Same
F-Same
G-Same
J-Same
L-Same
M-Same, shuttle from CI to 36th late nites
N-Astoria to Canal
Q-Normal, shuttle to 21st Street when no service
R-Forest Hills to Canal all times
Z-Suspended
B Division SHUTTLES
Rockaway-Same
Franklin-Same
63rd-When no Q or other train thru 63rd
I agree with mostly all of that except the B train. The B cannot terminate at 34th late nights, since the D will be running a thru service on the express tracks (D trains don't run local on 6th av, because they'd have to switch to local at W4 and switch back to express at 34th) Likely, instead of a Shuttle on Queensbridge nights they'd send the "B" train there.
I thought the D Train went local between 42 and 34 Streets and ran on the F local line until after B'way-Lafayette where there it would switch on to the middle tracks at 2nd Ave. Maybe I'm wrong but I saw a G/O at the tower at Lefferts that said differetly than what you said.
We're referring to a theoretical "what if MannyB northside tracks were still open and southside tracks closed". You are probably right about reality.
Hadn't thought of that. That could consolidate several services. It would also mean some B trains would be running from Jamacia Center to Coney Island.
>>It would also mean some B trains would be running from Jamacia Center to Coney Island.<<
How you figgure? B trains are 600 foot long R-68's, that's 2 things preventing that right there. They wouldn't do that!
On the IND tracks. The scenario was as follows:
The GO sending R trains to Jamacia via the E after Forest Hills is in effect. It is a weekend so the B is covering for 63rd Street. This means that the B has to cover both 63rd Street and the R. The R would be suspended and people would have 2 sections, the N on Broadway and the B for Queens and 63rd Street. Transfer at 34th.
Oh. Ooops.
Pretty close.
BDQ, same as before. Probably some sort of of shuttle for 63rd nights & weekends. Or they would continue the E & F GO's through there
JM, same as now
NR, as you said, normal north terminals; cut back to Canal.
The N, cut off from Coney Island, would probably be based out of Jamaica, an use the balance of R-46's not needed on the shortened R.
Can someone from the DC area help me.
My wife and I are traveling to DC next month since the rates are so low (ATL-DCA 144.00 round trip on Delta + 60.00/night at Westin Fairfax, used to be Ritz-Carlton, via priceline).
Anyway, we arrive at 10:00 PM and need to get to the hotel which is next to Dupont Circle. Taxi is about 50.00 from Dulles to hotel. I'm wondering if we should take a taxi to the nearest Metro station and ride the subway to the hotel. Any advice? Thanks
The Washington Flyer (www.washfly.com) can take you to the Falls Church Metro station for $8.00 per person ($14.00 round trip). The catch is the last bus from Dulles is at 10:15 (Buses run 15 and 45 after the hour).
Maybe an earlier flight can make things easier.
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
>The Washington Flyer (www.washfly.com) can take you to the Falls >Church Metro station for $8.00 per person ($14.00 round trip). The >catch is the last bus from Dulles is at 10:15 (Buses run 15 and 45 >after the hour).
>
>Maybe an earlier flight can make things easier.
>
I'm thinking my flight won't make it in time to catch the flyer. Thats why I'm wondering if a cab to subway or just a cab would be better. The fare may not be that different. Opinion? Thanks in advance.
I just found this info. I hope it helps.
Considering you are coming in at a late hour, it may be better to go for a one-seat ride with the Dulles cab (the dark grey ones). That way you can play it safe.
"New express bus service between Arlington and Washington Dulles International Airport
On Friday, Sept. 21, Arlington County started temporary bus service between Arlington and Dulles International Airport. The "Arlington-Dulles Express" service is being offered to address the inconvenience caused by the temporary closure of Reagan National Airport. The coaches will initially run every 30 minutes, starting at 5:30 a.m. on weekdays and 7:30 a.m. on weekends, and going until approximately midnight. Fares are $5 cash one-way; $4 cash with Metrobus or Metrorail pass, regional bus-to-bus transfer or Metrorail-to-bus transfer."
That is discontinued with the reopening of National Airport.
If you want to take Metro, You would have to take a taxi from Dulles to the Vienna Metro station which is the end of the Orange line in Virginia. Transfer at Metro Center Station to the Red line in the direction of Shady Grove. Go two stops to the Dupont Circle Metro station. Exit the station at the Q street entrance which will put you on the corner of 20th st and Q st. The Weston Fairfax hotel is at 2100 Massachusetts Ave, n.w. If you walk west (left as you exit the station) on Q street one block. Turn left onto 21st street and you will see the Westin Hotel about a quarter block away at the corner of 21st and Massachusetts Ave. You will be walking through a residential neiborhood but it will probably be close to 11 pm by the time you get to the Dupont Circle Metro station. If you are arriving in town on Friday or Saturday evening, Metro runs till 2 am, otherwise it closes at midnight. This could be critical if you get delayed leaving the Airport. You might arrive at Metro center after the last red line train passes thru the station which would require a taxi to the hotel.
Even though the taxi fair is high, at that hour of the night you might feel a bit more at ease being delivered directly to the front door of the hotel.
Best regards, Ken.
The last trains at Metro Center wait to make connections. This occurs between 12:04 AM and 12:06 AM according to the schedule (2 hours later on Friday and Saturday nights), but I hear they really spend about 5 minutes waiting. The last Orange line train from Vienna arrives at Metro Center about 12-15 minutes earlier, so once on the Orange Line, you have no problem. I doubt it will take you 15 minutes to make it up the escalator and I believe they ensure everyone in the station is either exiting or on a train before they allow the trains to leave. In other words, no one should be on a platform at 12:06.
More like 35.00 dollars not 50.00. Also check with super shuttle they have a 800 number
A bus operated by Washington Flyer operates from Dulles to the West Falls Church Station on the Orange Line. This bus costs $8 alone. You would have to pay an additional fare for the subway. Washington Flyer's website is www.washfly.com. To determine when you would arrive for the return bus (another $8), go to Metro's website and use the Ride Guide, www.wmata.com.
Metro operates a bus, route 5A, from Dulles Airport to L'Enfant Plaza. This bus operates hourly and makes stops at Dulles, Herndon/Monroe Park and Ride, Rosslyn, and L'Enfant Plaza. Cost is $1.10 plus a MetroRail fare to DuPont Circle, or you can take a bus. Again, use the Ride Guide at www.wmata.com.
If you have any more questions as to how to get around or where to railfan, post on SubTalk or e-mail me personally at oren@orenstransitpage.com.
Enjoy your stay!
Are you sure you're going to Dulles? DCA is National Airport, which is now open, and it also has a Metro stop at the terminal. IAD is Dulles.
Yesterday I took NJT into 30th Street station to begin a trip to the SEPTA Transit Museum store to buy Bill Newkirk's 2002 calendar. The NJT personnel on the AC route are quite friendly, in contrast to reports from North Jersey where they are overworked and often unpleasant.
Amtrak employees gathered WTC debris and photographs and constructed a WTC memorial/tribute to the rescue/clean-up workers. It was erected in 30th Street station. I took photos of it.
I proceeded to walk to the South Street bridge and photographed Acela Express, AEM-7, HHP-8, E-60, NS freight, and SEPTA. Returning to 30th Street, I took Route 10 Subway Surface car #9000 into Center City and bought my calendar. (Yes, Mike, route 10 is running again).
Photos of everything mentioned except the calendar are posted here.
Bob some very creative shots
Well done.
May I post the one of the Solari Board on my website (with proper credit)? I would like to provide a visual example of one of those actually working. I have shots of the one at NYP after it was disabled and the LED one was activated. The "Departure Board" on my site is susposed to model those boards to some extent.
Great photos, I'll be back in town next monday and tuesday BTW.
Hardly a day goes by that at least one of us posts a message about how stupid, incompetent, or mean-spirited MTA- NYC Transit is. They are regularly accussed of intentionally making service worse (always, of course, from the point of view of the individual poster.)
Then we have the endless posts about re-routing every line in the city so that someone can have an express train to their stop. (Hey, how many bizzare schemes can you come up with to get a Culver express?)
I seriously doubt that NY Transit is trying to put itself out of business. I'm more inclined to believe they have valid reasons for running the trains as they do. It's easy for us to sit back with our track maps and lots of idle time and re-invent the wheel, but if some of our vociferous SubTalkers actually took over... well, I doubt that there would be a single train running within 24 hours.
So keep dreaming, kids, it's fun to speculate. But don't take yourselves too seriously. Most of us don't have access to even 10 percent of the info needed to solve real-world problems.
I agree.The MTA is doing a damn good job notifying the public about service changes and diversions.And the MTA isn't the reason for delays.If some of your fellow straphangers would let go of the fucking door things would be moving faster.
Also if morons quit calling in phony bomb scares people might be able to get from here to there!
yes, my colleagues at the NYPD Transit Bureau are really annoyed.
If they ever catch one of these guys, legal should get on it. How about a class action suit on behalf of everyone who is inconveninced (and we'll take your word for it). Neither these guys nor their families should be left with more than the clothes on their back. That's if they are female. If male, the clothes below their belt is all they deserve.
Plese.Don't let them off easily.Send the idiot's,their parents and whoever was involved to a Turkish prison!
Why don't we just fine them and/or jail them?
I agree also, I never blame things on the MTA...
But some of us have access to a lot more info than the MTA does. Some of us actually ride on the trains every day, and we know what the conditions are like, whereas all the MTA has is ridership surveys from 1995 that extrapolate to a 6% increase by 2001, where it has been more like 26%. We know how frequently and on-timefully the trains really run. We can also compare the NYC subway to systems in other cities, and all of this leads to the inevitable conclusion that service can be better.
I personally do not blame NYCT for intentionally making service worse. The last time they did that was when the trains mysteriously became much slower after the overhaul. But what annoys me is that there are very simple and obvious steps that can be taken to make service better, and NYCT does not take them. Take, for example the problem of door-holding. It is a major contribution to station dwell time, and thus a major limiting factor on the frequency of service. A common excuse that it is just the nature of people to hold doors, since they do not want to miss their train. The MTA's solution so far has been automated announcements telling people to step all the way in and stand clear of the closing doors. There are also advertisements in subway cars tellingn people not to worry if tehy miss their train, since another one just like it is on the way. These advertisements entirely miss the point that the next train may be coming in another 10 or 15 minutes, and that being 10 minutes late actually does make a difference to most people.
But a simple comaprison with other subway systems suggests a simple
as I was saying before my computer so rudely interrupted.....
There is an obvious diiference between the NYC subway and other systems. The doors on their trains close much faster. There also happens to be significantly less door-holding. This is an obvious sort of thing: If the doors close faster than the reaction time of the average person, by the time they realise that the door is closing, it will already be too late to try to grab it becasue it will be closed. It costs very little additional money to replace the door motors with faster ones as part of the scheduled maintenace process, and that simple act can significantly reduce delays, especially on very busy lines like the Lexington Express, with no need for spending lots of money on new technology like CBTC.
But with CBTC, then more trains can run closer together, which should solve 2 problems at once (door holding, crowded trains)
Plus, no matter how fast the doors close, they cn still get held open, and then that slowly makes the door motors get slower and slower...
But with CBTC, then more trains can run closer together,
That's not true. There is very little theoretical service capacity benefit from CBTC over the current block system. The theoretical capacity for current block system is 42-45 tph; CBTC would raise that to the 48-52 tph range. They are currently running at the 25-30 tph range. They could increase service levels by 33% without resorting to CBTC.
the theory behind CBTC is that the 'magic' radio boxes both lineside and onboard are "cheaper to install and maintain" than physical relay driven electro-mechanical block signaling hardware. This may someday be true, but the experience with such stuff in the SF MUNI Metro has been lousy. Certainly, if MTA can find a vendor whose stuff actually works reliably, then the savings over many years in signal maintenance costs could be quite large.
But won't it let you fly across the Manny B and Willy B on off hours? Remove the need for punches and towers holding you behind homeballs for ID?
Once upon a time, long long ago, far far away, we were told that THAT was what marker lights were for. :)
yes, WHEN it works correctly. Bay Area riders of both BART and MUNI have experience of slowdowns when the control systems see "ghosts". For fun see the SF MUNI real time display of 'LRV trains' in the Metro tunnel
>>http://sfmunicentral.com/<<
you will periodicaly see 'non-communicating trains'
I will be very pleased when this stuff works as well as the hardwired blocks.
It isn't necessary to replace the motors. The door operator opening and closing speeds are adjustable in the shops (by playing with door speed resistors that control opening speed, closing speed, and "opening cushioning"). According to information I have (which is a few years old and may have changed), door opening time should be 1.5-1.8 seconds and door closing time should be 2.4-2.6 seconds. How much faster or slower the doors can be set to open and close, I am unable to say due to a lack of information.
David
and if we shapen the doors to a razors edge people will quicky learn not to mess with the doors.
C/R's are no longer allowed to cycle the doors either. That HURT on those old trains.
No more "bumper-putz?" What *has* the TA come to? :)
>bumper-putz?
Thats right I forgot people getting banged for one door to the other. The Veggo-matic is also gone. Plus open for at least ten seconds.
I know the Conductors are supose to open up fully and make a closing door announcement. That is the R 142 a plus because that cycles the doors on it own.
>>whereas all the MTA has is ridership surveys from 1995 that extrapolate to a 6% increase by 2001, where it has been more like 26%. We know how frequently and on-timefully the trains really run. We can also compare the NYC subway to systems in other cities, and all of this leads to the inevitable conclusion that service can be better.<<
You do realize that the TA takes turnstile counts (non-paying customers shouldn't be a part of the service improvements anyways), which tells them just how much service has increased. They also know how many trains are on time: I've seen many stations where there are guys marking down the time a train arrives on a clipboard. Even without those guys, the tower sees more trains than any one commuter on any given day.
>>These advertisements entirely miss the point that the next train may be coming in another 10 or 15 minutes, and that being 10 minutes late actually does make a difference to most people.<<
You do realize that the only train that is scheduled to come every 10 minutes apart is the G, and there's almost never any door holding on that line. The only time trains become late so that they are 10-15 minutes apart is when they get held up by stragglers who refuse to wait the extra 7 minutes for the next one. Sorry if the TA can't schedule trains for every 2 minutes on every line. They are trying to be cost efficient so that they can avoid fare hikes.
Just assuming rush hour here, the A southbound am and A Northbound PM runs about every 10 minutes, and the C is scheduled for about every 10 minutes throughout the day. The W runs every 10 minutes during rush hour, and the J and M are also quite infrequent. The simple and obvious way to solve that problem would not involve buying any new trains or hiring new employees. Simply split the train (of R44/46/62/68/142/143's) in half. That way, instead of one 8 or 10 car train every 6-10 minutes with a train operator and conductor, you get on 4 or 5 car train every 3-5 minutes, with OPTO. Thus, the number of cars running and number of train crew stays teh same, but waiting times go down by, on average 4 minutes. 4 minutes times 4 million people = 266000 man-hours = $1.4 million a day at minimum wage increase in productivity for the economy. Also, the increased headways will lead to increased ridership, especially for short trips since it would not make sense to take the train if the wait is longer than the ride.
For reference, in Moscow, the typical headways are:
1.3 to 1.5 minutes during rush hours
2.5 to 4 minutes during midday and evening
6 minutes in the late evening
3-6 minutes on weekends.
The government subsidy to that system: 0
That plan is bad. You know why? If there's a delay of any sort, there will be nothing but crammed trains. I understand that certain things work in other systems, but they wouldn't work here. That plan you stated gives no flexibility what-so-ever. Becuase if there's a sudden flux of riders, then it's going to get ugly.
Further, on some places headways are already very tight, and that plan wouldn't work (E,F,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) Notice the IRT lines? Notice how they have shorter train lengths...
And, um, the A runs at headways better than 10 minutes. the Rockaway park runs add 5 trains the whole rush hour. FIVE! even without those trains, the A is scheduled to come roughly every 7 minutes. The C,J,M and W lines are scheduled for every 8 minutes.
There is plenty of flexibility if the headways are never shorter than about 3 minutes. And this sort of thing would not be necessary on the E,F,2,3,4,5,6 or 7. It is also more of an off-peak hour sort of idea.
Also, I am quite aware of the fact that the A train runs every 7 minutes, but that is northbound am and southbound pm, and I explicitly stated the opposite directions, where the train does indeed run every 8-10 minutes accoriding to my timetable. Note that there are no Rockaway Prak-bound trains in the am rush hour. Also, from having taken the A train on a daily basis in that direction, I have observed that there usually two A trains going northbound pass before my southbound train comes. Also, from taking the 1 train daily for a year, I can tell you that service is a bit overrated. When they say 3-6 minutes during rush hour (I quote the timetable as of August 2001) they mean closer to 6 minutes. Also, note that the trains are already crammed anyway, so it doesn't make a difference.
When the trains go conga line it would also get worse many signal blocks are more than 300 ft.
Let me say this although I've likely said it before. Every little boy who ever had electric trains while growing up thinks he can run a railroad. The truth is, after 20+ years, I'm still learning, every day. Even experts in one field don't see the entire picture. For someone to say that they know it all because they ride the trains, is the height of egotism.
In another thread, we were discussing decision making during service interruptions. For the Manhattan Bridge flip, I looked at over 30 different strategies for handling delays at different times and locations. Yet if I were to pose just one to you, Mr. daily Subway Rider - expert, I'd be willing to wager that you'd not be able to grasp the problem, let alone come up with a viable strategy.
However, as long as you mention it, why don't you explain to all of us why the field shunting was removed from the propulsion system. Why don't you explain what two areas came into conflict making this necessary.
Why don't you explain to me how to forcast material and manpower needs to regularly inspect a fleet of 1,000 cars every 10,000 miles with an annual fleet milage of 72,000,000 miles (and that's just one shop of 13). I'll bet you don't pick that up riding the trains every day.
I could go on and on but I think we get the point. You have a theory - a theory you have no means of ever testiing so you just assume it will work.. Tell me how your theory squares witht he fact that people will hold doors on a Northbound #5 at Grand Central when the next northbound #5 is clearly visible at the end of the station, waiting to enter. Yup, I can't wait to hear from an expert.
Tell me how your theory squares witht he fact that people will hold doors on a Northbound #5 at Grand Central when the next northbound #5 is clearly visible at the end of the station, waiting to enter. Yup, I can't wait to hear from an expert.
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Can you actually see a n/b train waiting to enter the station at GCP? I mean, can a n/b express be in the station, while the next train can get close enough to be seen? That's a very sharp turn before GCP. I can't imagine someone can see the next express.
But I understand you're point.
A better example would be on the 6, and I know many of you can relate to this.
You're trying to board a n/b 6 at 59th/Lex. It's way too crowded. The conductor shouts, "there is a train directly behind this one". You look down the track, with 51st in clear view, and see nothing.
You two have just exemplified two classic points.
1. "What I have experienced trumps anything you claim.
2. You can't possibly understand because you don't see the big picture.
Well the "there's (bus, train, lrv etc)another right behind me." is the 'fourth great lie' along with I'll respect you in the morning, I won't... etc. It might be true, but it has so often been a lie that it has no credibility anymore.
As to "armchair" versus the 'experts' who work in the system, this is a much trickier question. SOMETIMES the veterans have been doing things in a rut for so long they have lost the horizon from which to innovate. Tom Peters (as merely one example) has made a career of telling people to change how they approach their businesses (and yes the TA is a business only the object is service and 'profit' if any is a side issue.)
I certainly can understand that there are many considerations in planning be it service pattern changes forced by outside facts or merely the year in year out subtle changes in ridership, but the intellectual processes here are no more complex than writing some huge amount of code, and if the totality of data to be considered and the weight to be assigned each datum when there are conflicts can be documented, them 'rational' solutions can be obtained.
Well some operating time for you guys might be a cure.
Half here seem to want every old small line restored and lots of rush or nite only service, we would be up to the 53 train and the MM. The other half want every line extended.
We have the skip stoppers and those that would eliminate skip stop before cancer.
Some proposed weird service and don't understand that maybe a F local to far rock is not a practical service for scheduling or on the operator then ask 'what is a work program'.
We have the we did that in 1933ers so we can do it now.
When confronted with the problems we have well mass transit should be more of a priority $$ or well the union should be more flexible. Like somehow asking for more money never occured to anyone or that anyone could not do better with an extra 1 billion.
Many of you don't understand work rule changes, see my other post. OR understand that when trains are a conga line more trains actually can hurt the service or that some of these newer rules make more service almost impossible.
You two have just exemplified two classic points.
1. "What I have experienced trumps anything you claim.
2. You can't possibly understand because you don't see the big picture
So what is your point? I believe exactly those points. Anyone can say "I can do it better". Okay, here's the challange. AMTRAK is looking for a Chief operations person for the North-East corridor right now. You'd have to re-locate to Philly and I don't know what you earn but they are offering $125,000 as a starting salary and possibly as high as $135 - $140K. So if you are not earning as much and want to show how easy it is to run a railroad, why not apply? Then let us know how you stack up against the two leading candidates.
As a matter of fact, you can see trains waiting to enter a station at several points in the system. One such point is 5th Ave Northbound on the E/F. With an E in the station, an E can come down to the signal in advance of the Home ball. This is clearly visible from the platform. Since the main station entrance is on that end of the station, too, one would think that people would see a train waiting to enter and just let that one leave. UH UH.
maybe yes, maybe no. First off, with the usual caveats, yes most of the MTA should be given the benefit of the doubt both individually and collectively. That said, however, the deliberate slowing of the system which has been documented here ad nauseam, not only degrades service to riders, but may well be financially counterproductive. The per hour cost of a ten car IRT train and crew is not cheap. If the train can get from origin to destination terminals say ten-fifteen minutes faster, then that trainset and crew could make a few more trips per work week. That either means enhanced service at no increased capital cost, or lower capital costs in the future for the current service levels. The negative potential here is increased mileage per month and thus higher maintenance per year. Perhaps some MTA 'zeck' could comment on the strategy currently deployed.
>>If the train can get from origin to destination terminals say ten-fifteen minutes faster, then that trainset and crew could make a few more trips per work week.<<
First-off, you're not going to save 15 minutes (maybe with re-instatement of Field shunting and removal of some timers you could save a few minutes, but not too much). Plus, train crews only do a number of runs per day. So, in the end the slowdown would not really slow the TA much.
Now when the selective speed control of the R-44/46 was disabled, THAT was a serious slow down! (but only on those classes)
You can save a lot of time, even without field shunting. Simply make the trains accelerate faster, like we all know they can (for example in Philadelphia and Boston). The way it is now, a local train reaches its top speed of 30 mph as it is entering the next station. If trains accelerated like they do in Boston, (0-40 in 25 seconds, and I've timed that), the local train would reach its top speed of 40 halfway to the next station and continue at that speed until it has to stop. This can give up to a 20% increase in average speed, and on trains like the 1, where total running time (242 St-South Ferry) is 53 minutes, that would save about 10 minutes, giving train crews an extra half-trip over the course of a day. The effect would be even more noticeable for longer local lines, and when combined with reduced door-holding and increased headways as mentioned in my other posts, that could lead to a significant increase in the actual capacity of the system, as well as the perceived quality of service, with no expensive and time-consuming capital projects.
Point taken. Still, what's 'half-a-trip'? You can't expect a crew to take a train for half a trip.
A trip on most lines is from Terminal A to Terminal B and back to Terminal A. A half trip is from A to B. The 1 was a poor choice for this, since it and the 6, under normal conditions, do not have the option of a half trip, because of their loops. I have worked jobs on the 7 that were 4 1/2 trips - started at TSQ and finished at Main St - and on the 2 with 1 1/2 trips -start at Livonia Yard and finish at White Plains.
giving train crews an extra half-trip over the course of a day.
An extra half-trip on the 1? This actually costs more money, because now they have to pay me to travel back to where I started, whether it be in service or not.
giving train crews an extra half-trip over the course of a day.
An extra half-trip on the 1? This actually costs more money, because now they have to pay me to travel back to where I started, whether it be in service or not.
or better yet, extended breaks at the terminal. A more alert train crew means a safer system, and that is what is most important
This, at least, is a better solution.
well said, the question of how to utilize the 'saved' time is IMHO open to NEGOTIATION like for instance change out TSQ SB back to a NB so as to clock out at point of origin. In any event, the point I believe stands the TA is wasting both capital and labor costs by runnng the trains too slowly.
Could it be that perhaps you do not know the reason for the elimination of field shunting?
did I mention field shunting?
If trains accelerated like they do in Boston, (0-40 in 25 seconds, and I've timed that), the local train would reach its top speed of 40 halfway to the next station and continue at that speed until it has to stop.
0-40 mph in 25 seconds works out to 1.6mph/sec. That is very poor performance and places it on a par with the best equipment from gate car days. I'd be curious about your experimental method for measuring the acceleration.
The most important acceleration, from the capacity viewpoint, is the time a train takes to clear a station platform. In your example, it would take 22.6 sec for a 600 foot long train to clear the platform. It would still be accelerating toward 40 mph. On the other hand, a train accelerating at 2.0 mph.sec to 30 mph would take 21.1 seconds to clear the same platform. It's not going to make much difference. Now, if you were considering the Bluebirds of 60 years ago at 4.0 mph/sec, then you might have a legitmate complaint.
I owe myself 5 cents because I bet myself that you'd pick up
and jump in on the acceleration number. 0 to 40 in 25 is indeed
an average acceleration of 1.6 mphps. However, acceleration is only
constant for part of the curve. Let's look at the beloved bluebirds.
They were essentially PCC cars and had a balance speed of about 42-45
MPH. The acceleration rate was 4.0. That rate was held constant
by the notching circuits (actually a brush arm controller, but
that's a whole other discussion) until all of the resistance was
out of the circuit. The point on the curve where that happens on
level tangent track is roughly 18 MPH. Beyond that there is
a section of roughly constant-current acceleration under progressive
field shunting which produces a reduced tractive effort/accel
rate. By about 27 MPH, it's all over and acceleration falls
off roughly according to a=B-Ks where B and K are constants and
s is the speed.
If you time say the 0-20 time it should work out more or less exactly
to the stated acceleration rate. The 0-40 time involves many
more factors such as gearing, hp/weight ratio.
I owe myself 5 cents because I bet myself that you'd pick up and jump in on the acceleration number. 0 to 40 in 25 is indeed an average acceleration of 1.6 mphps. However, acceleration is only constant for part of the curve. Let's look at the beloved bluebirds. They were essentially PCC cars and had a balance speed of about 42-45 MPH. The acceleration rate was 4.0. That rate was held constant by the notching circuits (actually a brush arm controller, but that's a whole other discussion) until all of the resistance was out of the circuit. The point on the curve where that happens on level tangent track is roughly 18 MPH. Beyond that there is a section of roughly constant-current acceleration under progressive field shunting which produces a reduced tractive effort/accel rate. By about 27 MPH, it's all over and acceleration falls off roughly according to a=B-Ks where B and K are constants and s is the speed.
If you time say the 0-20 time it should work out more or less exactly to the stated acceleration rate. The 0-40 time involves many more factors such as gearing, hp/weight ratio.
I did not say how long a Bluebird would take to clear the platform, I just said that it would be significantly less than 22 seconds. I don't think your criticism is justified.
However, since you have presented an acceleration vs. velocity profile for the Bluebird, I'll give you a numeric answer. First, let me double check what you said.
Let x1(t) be the velocity (mph) and x2(t) be the distance travelled (ft). Then:
dx1(t)/dt = { 4.0, for x1(t) <= 27; 10.75 - 0.25x1(t) for 27 < x1(t); 0.0 for x1(t) > 43}
dx2(t)/dt = 1.47x1(t)
This is in the form of simultaneous first order differential equations. There are many numeric packages that are designed to itegrate such equations that are presented in this form. I chose to use the octave package, which is free under the GNU license. It also plots the results. Looking at the plot, the 600 foot platform is cleared in approximately 16 seconds.
I trust you got your nickel's worth.
BTW, this simple problem does yield a closed form solution. However, if you want it, you'll owe me that nickel.:-)
As I mentioned in an earlier post, in 1970, I took an RR from Astoria to 95th St. in 62 minutes. The same trip now (pre 9/11), by scheduled times of N and R trains (changing at DeKalb with no wait), would run 72 minutes. That's 10 minutes, boys.
If you really want to get that time back.
Let crews key automatics at will. Get rid of 2/3 of the bridge timers put the tunnels on regular signals not GT's, kill holding light enforcement, make runs and batteries less of a production to do, allow C/Os to keep doors closed while waiting in stations, allow C/O's to rapidly cycyle the doors which close hard, have 3+ giant irish (my boyhood rememberence not a slam against any group) c/o's per train so that when someone holds the door they can pop down with a show paddle, burn the wheel detectors, allow trains to enter stations even when they don't have the full line up, don't grief T/Os that arrive early, soup up the trains again and restore those brakes that would slam you around the car.
Almost all of those things are safety related BUT you would get the old timetable back and be able to run more trains per hour.
Has anybody heard the latest if there will be a open house at Croton the end of this month from Metro-North. If so I am planning to come
Check the Upcoming Events! October 20 is the date!
What do AFAIK and OTOH mean?
OTOH is On The Other Hand
AFAIK could mean one of 2 things:
1)As far as I know
--or--
2)Most women's breasts in Beverly Hills.
Been spendin' time in Beverly Hills have we?
Well, ummm, hope you had, um, err, fun.....
Thanks for the info.
On Tuesday, Sept 11, how did the subway initially respond to the collapse? They say the evacuation was well organized, so exactly what happened where did everything go? They had to get people out of Manhattan without letting anyone in. How was this done, avoiding the WTC area totally? What was the subway of 9/11/2001 like?
According to radio, at first trains were just skipping the lower manhattan stations. Then not too long before the first collapse, I heard that all trains that went through lower manhattan were closed. Finally, By the time I got out, (at the exact time of the second collapse) and walked up to 14th st and 6th av (from Chambers and West) the subway was entirely closed. Buses were running, but service was horrible, as my friend and I outpaced buses, and caught up to others.
When I got to 60th st the E/F were running and I boarded that after getting my mom from work. To my understanding:
1. B/D/F/G/L/7 trains were running 'normal'
2. A/E trains were running via the F from W4 to Jay (It appears that most E trains were turned at second av, and when we came into Jay st, an A train was coming from high st, packed with passengers, so I think some ran along their regular route). J trains were running only to East New York From Parsons (Should have been extended to Myrtle).M trains ran only between Metropolitan and Myrtle
3. C/N/R/Q/W/1/2/3/4/5/6/9 trains remained suspended until later that night when the Brooklyn IRT got shuttle service, and 1/2/4/6 trains terminated at 42nd st on their respective lines (no idea when Q/W began re-operating)
Also the PATH dispatcher at Journal Square should get some of the credit for saving lives. Shortly after the first building was struck, he (or she) ordered the WTC station evacuated. My guess was he considered the building in danger of collapsing. Every train that could be taken there was rushed over there to get the people off of the station and to safety in NJ. All those who wouldn't take the train were advised to get upstairs and get out of the neighborhood ASAP.
My mother was on the 8:39am out of Newark. It must have been pulling into JSQ when the 1st plane hit. They were all thrown off at Grove Street, but the announcements simply said the WTC is closed, go to 33rd, which they did (it was an all-day trek back thru Weehawken), when they should have said go home.
I just saw this auction today on ebay. Someone is selling a map of the BMT from 1933. Here is the link. I would bid, but it already reached $88.00 and the auction just started! Btw, I am not the seller of this item, and I do not know him or her either.
David
The last time this map went for sale on e-bay, it went for $276.00. And it went to the person who happens to be the current leader of this auction (bmtlines).
He is also a Subtalker. :-)
Chaohwa
BMTlines if I am correct is/was the same person who used to post here at SubTalk under that same handle.
For all I know he may still be here under a different name (or has become a lurker).
In any event he tends to have the highest bids on any BMT or BRT related material at ebay. It really p---es me off sometimes as rarely does anyone else get a chance to win.
BMTman
Just to set the record straight - the guy who posted as BMTLines is NOT the same person whose eBay handle is BMTLines. I should know - it is my eBay handle. If I pissed you off by bidding on BMT material - well i'm sorry but I could also say that I am pissed off by people who force me to bid so high in order to complete my collection. But I don't - that is what an auction is all about - and if you look at my overall success percentage - I win less than 20% of the auctions I bid on. And I have been sniped at the last minute countless times. There are several others who would and do bid high for BMT material, so even if I weren't around, I doubt if you would find any bargains. I guess the BMT has a lot of fans!! I recall a porcelain BMT map that sold for over $1000 - no I did NOT win it - but I wanted it. Does any of this upset me - I will honestly say NO - It is all part of the "game" - and I certainly play by the rules!! And If you want to know - the RESERVE on this map was set at $88 - thats how the bidding went so high so fast.
As for the handles - when I chose a handle for eBay - BMTLines was available - but later when I started looking around subtalk I noticed that it was already in use so I chose my favorite route instead. The person who used the handle BMTLines on subtalk is not related to me in any way so don't blame him.
It may piss you off, but you have to look at it this way. If you want it that badly, then you must be prepared to PAY for it.
I have gone a bit higher than usual on certain items because I wanted it that badly. Mind you, I personally would not pay $276 for a 1933 BMT map, but he is quite willing to do so.
Time and money are to some extent exchangeable. If you spend enough time rooting around on eBay, you can find bargains. There was recently an eBay item comprising 15 pieces of travel ephemera, including an old BMT Lines map (don't know which year) that went for just $7.50. Unfortunately my sniping finger was too slow ...
It went for just $180.51, which is a more realistic market price IMHO.
were you the purchaser?
Yes. Obviously I don't like it being expensive either, but eBay is the only way to collect NYC subway maps on this side of the Atlantic, so I just have to accept the market forces like everybody else.
And finally I didn't even come close to winning it!! So my response to BMTman stands - even if I didn't bid - it won't make this stuff any cheaper.
Jim aka BMTlines(on eBay only) - NOT the subtalker by the same handle.
Sometimes prices are bid up because just two people are really hot for the item.
Recently Joe Saitta (eBay joepcc699@aol.com) dribbled out a series of Brighton Beach/Coney Island area blue prints from the Dual Contracts rebuilding ers, showing original track layouts and buildings. I'm familiar with these (they're very rare, but not one-of-a-kind). The first one he put, which I don't have, I would have gone up to maybe $100 for, but it went for over $300.
Then he put up some more, which also bid high, but most of the bidding seems to have been between two people, at least one of whom posts on SubTalk.
But I think the bidders may be tapped out--despite a minimum bid of "only" $48, Joe's most recent offerings from this series haven't got a bid.
I don't criticize anyone bidding any price for something they want. I just hope they want and value it for itself. I suppose there are some people who are driven to bid by the assumed scarcity alone.
as PT Barnum once said..........
Peace,
ANDEE
eBay must be the second greatest thing on the internet (SubTalk, of course, being the greatest). Some things on eBay are bid into the heavens, and others are overlooked and go for the proverbial song. The BMT map is a real collectible as it's hand drawn and has a charm that computer-generated graphics can't approach. (I'm not denigrating the great track and route maps on this site.)
Oh no, we better put bars over the one in 1227 !
Mr t
Here is another one, starting at $25.00
The scan's a little blurry, but it looks like the same edition, June 1933. I hope there was only one edition in that month.
But this is not always the case. I recently found that the New York Telephone Company produced two editions of its NYC subway map dated July 1955, one with the Rockaway Line Extension as a dashed line 'under construction', the other showing the completed line with the legend "Open June 1956". I think probably the latter was really produced in July 1956, and they just forgot to change the identifying code on the front, which still said "7-55". So you can't always rely on the date codes of subway maps. (In comparison, the date codes on the London Underground maps were often quite erratic, until they were dropped completely in 1997.)
It'd be nice if there were a comprehensive list of these NYC subway maps somewhere, to cross check reference codes. For the London Underground, Anne Letch published a booklet in 2000, listing every known official map of the Underground back to early 1920s. I've never seen a comparable list for NYC. Here on this site, http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/maplist.html, Todd Glickman has built up a list of map editions, but it stops at 1963. And BMTlines has information about the maps, at http://www.bmt-lines.com/maps.html, but no complete list. I've been putting together what information comes my way at http://www.ursasoft.com/maps/NewYork/newyork.htm, but I know that this has large gaps.
Does anyone know of a complete list anywhere on the net?
there are enough of us who collect ny subway maps that we could probably put together a fairly comprehensive list. one of my projects for a rainy day [or 20], way into the future, is to document the changes that were reflected in each change of map editions.
This seems a worthy project IMHO. It's something that transport museums ought to have done already. Well, the London Transport Museum seems to hold the study of Tube maps fairly low down in their scale of priorities (even though they jealously guard their revenue from the copyright). I don't know whether the NY Transit Museum takes a more lively interest in the NY Subway maps. I didn't discover the existence of the museum until after my last visit to NYC, so I don't know what map exhibits they have.
(I just took a quick look at the web site. Curiously, they currently have an exhibition on *London's* Underground "and the way in which American expertise has influenced this process". It says "American influence has been vital in helping London keep on the move", as an example of which it cites Bob Kiley, who hasn't done anything here yet. It does mention "the groundbreaking design of the Tube map", but neglects to mention its influence on the subway maps of the world, such as the designs by Salomon and Vignelli for NYC. Fortunately, I'll be able to see it on my Christmas visit to NY.)
Yup good ol' LIRR had another problem with their ancient signal system this afternoon, fortunately it didn't mess me up too much. I was waiting for the 5:14pm westbound train out of LOng Beach, where I would take it to Lynbrook. Anouncements state due to signal problems all eastbound trains are skipping stops between Valley Stream and Jamaica. There were no trains when I got there, and I was worried we'd be late, since my train was supposed to arrive awhile ago, at 4:44pm. Announcements state it's running 15 minutes late into Long Beach, but all westbound trains are on or close to schedule. Finally pulls in at 5:06pm, and we leave 10 minutes later at 5:16pm (another train arrived right after mine).
Fortunately I get to Lynbrook in time to make the 5:45pm N25 to Great Neck. While stopped at the NHP grade crossing I saw an E/B electric MU on the westbound track stopping at NHP, and a Bi-level fly by it on the E/B track going east.
I'm so glad I don't have to ride LIRR.
The Times says that Mark Green and Fred Ferrer are irresponsible to talk about improved parks and the Second Avenue Subway. It implied that plans to improve the NYC schools will have to be dropped. The Post also wants school spending cut.
ALL THESE ARE AREAS WHERE NYC SPENDS LESS THAN AVERAGE!
What about categories where NYC spends more than average, such as Medicaid and public employee pensions? No mention.
Can't cut the winners. Got to cut the losers. Prepare for what is coming: hell for the majority, keep the deals going for the minority.
>>Prepare for what is coming: hell for the majority, keep the deals going for the minority.<<
Of course you realize that those affected most be the poor school system are not the majority (I'd like to know who that is in your mind anyway) but the minority. And the "minority" would also benefit greatly by the second av subway.
Of course you realize that those affected most be the poor school system are not the majority (I'd like to know who that is in your mind anyway) but the minority. And the "minority" would also benefit greatly by the second av subway.
He's talking about real majorities and minorities, not fictional (race-based) ones.
I was at the Broadway-East New York Station, walking the (L) platform...saw a bunch of R42s i there with (J) and (M). Spotted an R42 with the front sign ...
Then noticed...in the distance...an R40 slant train, signed with (J)!!!!! Is this the beginning of R40 slants on the J line??? Or is it just something else? I KNOW I SAW (J) ON ALL EIGHT R40 SLANT CARS, SO NO ONE BETTER TELL ME I WAS DREAMING OR SEEING THINGS...lol
--Cleanairbus
BTW, it was a brown , not a yellow ...
--Cleanairbus
Wonder what kind of "J" it was - there are two kinds - one with a full umbrella handle (tail of "J" goes all the way round to 9 o'clock), one with half (tail stops at 6 o'clock). Same thing with "Q"'s there are two kinds - one with the tail growing out of the circle , the other with the tail through the circle.
wayne
The slants had the same old GOH rollsigns that the rest of the R40-46 had when first rebuilt. They used Akzidenz(Standard MEdium, Gothic 725), which hs the same "J as the similar Franklin Gothic J
The R-46's have this too, and it sure looks strange with that J on the front.
But newer signs have gone back to Swiss/Helvetica, which use the "umbrella handle" (or candy cane) shape, as well as the Q with the tail going through the circle.
I display and compare the two fonts at the bottom of my Line History page. (BTW, WTC service change info coing soon)
It's possible to get a slant 40 on the J, but it would be very rare. The slants that are running on the M are property of Coney Island Yard and the slants on the L rarely come off that line.
In other words: don't get used to it.
Is it common to see R-40 slants on the Q to Continental? I saw one at 7am on Wednesday morning. I have not seen any other than just that one.
Not common at all. A rare sight.
Wow..I haven't seen a slant on Queens Blvd. since 1975..it would REALLY be cool to see one on the express...
I don't see why the TA is so anal-retentive about equipment assignments. What's the big deal if a ENY R40 runs on the L or J ?.
Because Wayne will only allow shovelnoses on Canarsie =)
Welllll, I have let my slanted buddies go out on the "Z" occasionally! :o>
It would be a real treat to see one on the "J".
wayne
Ive read somewhere way back when,due to the slant feature on the R40s and the drasticly tight curves on the Broadway EL,the 40s were band from operating regular service.
Nah, that's not true. The J doesn't run slants because the L uses them all.
The curves at Crescent and Cypress Hills are tight but no tighter than those outside of Myrtle Avenue (where CI Slants now toil in "M" service) AND/OR north of Cortlandt Street where they've been running on the "N" for quite some time. I'd be more worried about people trying to cross between "B" ends without the safety handles. This is true not only of the Slants but the R40Ms as well.
wayne
Why are there no safety handles on the two R-40 variants? I feel perfectly at ease walking between cars as long as I carefully watch my step and hold onto the grab bars. Changing cars on the R-40 makes me quite nervous. (On the R-142, too -- there are grab bars but thanks to the double doors I need three hands to use them. The double doors are a misfeature, IMO.)
I am not sure why grab handles were not installed on the R40 models; this is true of both the Slants and the M's, and only between the "B" ends. The R42 order corrected this oversight. I refuse to cross between the "B" ends of either car type while the train is in motion.
wayne
The mismated cars of 4460/4665: the conductors have to be careful since 4460 has no grab irons, yet 4665 does!
I try to go door handle-to-door handle crossing through the 'B' ends of a Slant, though that stupid little notch is a problem there (the price of having a long slim door with the child-friendly railfan windows at the `A' end, I guess).
I don't outright refuse but I certainly don't do it as often as I would otherwise.
The A ends of R-40's don't have grab bars, either, but the other safety contraptions make for a usable substitute. (Grab bars wouldn't be of much help, in any case, since they'd be out of reach.)
I wish they would have 100 pairs or R40M's and R40S's swap mates.
Then they could run as 4 car sets.
This was the gap train. I was assigned to it this morning. Now of course they weren't going to let me move it a single foot in the yard, since my year isn't up. So they had the yard switcman do most of the making it up, and he moved it to the last homeball at the head of the yard, where I took it over. I took it to Broad (exp. track all the way in Bklyn.), wherea switchman there picked it up to take it to what is now the layup tracks.
Then I deadheaded to Jamaica, wondering if they would use it, and had one passenger trip to 95th and back. On the way out, I passed it heading for Jamaica. On the way back, I passed it heading back to the yard. When I signed out, it was up on the deck (the higher tracks in ENY). So go figure. This was ENY (L) assigned equipment, including 4446-7, not CI.
what are some good books about nyc in the 60's-80's dealing with urban renewal, the fiscal crisis, white flight etc. i know this question is kinda off topic but those books would definitely mention the declining transit system. i'm not looking for any books written by college professors for college professors who are trying to be as wordy as humanly possible but i'm not looking for pop-up books either. so far i know i wanna read "the death and life of great american cities" by jane jacobs.
thanks,
tim
p.s. also any good movies or websites. the pbs documentary on ny was very well done i thought.
If architecture and urban planning is in your area of interest, I would recommend Ada Louise Huxtable's "Kicked a Building Lately?" She was the architecture critic for the New York Times in that period (the book was originally published in 1976) and the book is a series of essays originally published in the Times. Two essays discuss Battery Park City and the World Trade Center, another Penn Station. It was published by the University of California Press, Berkeley, and the ISBN is 0-520-06207 for the paperback.
yes i am interested in architecture, history, urban planning, transit.
i used to work in the world trade center until 3 weeks ago and i was always amazed by those buildings. beautiful buildings? no. amazing buildings? yes. i always searched online for pics on the construction of the wtc but never found anything good. and now of course everyone wants to see pics of the wtc and everything will be focused on the destruction of them. i heard there was a skyscraper museum in the towers and now its obviously destroyed, i didn't even know it existed, i definitely would have visited it.
The Skyscraper Museum wasn't at the WTC. They're waiting for a permanent home at the new Ritz-Carlton in Battery Park City. A new exhibit about the WTC will open at the New York Historical Society in the meantime. See http://www.skyscraper.org
what are some good books about nyc in the 60's-80's dealing with urban renewal, the fiscal crisis, white flight etc. i know this
question is kinda off topic but those books would definitely mention the declining transit system.
The Streets Were Paved with Gold by Ken Auletta is an excellent account of the city's financial crisis of the 1970's. I read it 15 or more years ago, before my railfan days, so offhand I can't quite remember the extent to which it focused on transit, but certainly there must have been a reasonbly detailed discussion given transit's role in the city.
It's probably now out of print, but you should be able to get a copy through Amazon or maybe at the Strand.
Also the new book "The Ungovernable City" by Vincent J. Cannato deals with John Lindsay's two terms as New York City mayor, the second of which ran from 1970-71-72-73 and includes the period when the city's "creative accounting" practices really started the ball rolling to the 1975 backruptcy.
Since it just came out two months ago, any local bookstore will have it. Of course, it's only out in hardcover right now, so the bottom price you'll find it for is around $20.
There was also New York in the Sixties. It has many, many photos taken by a German photgrapher during the summer of 1968. There are some subway photos including the interior of an R-17 on the 1; R-7/9s on the KK; R-27/30s on the QJ; and WF R-36s on the 7.
Best book ever written in the 70's?
"Seeing New York-The Official MTA Travel Guide".
This book has been harder to find than Osama Bin Laden (don't start up any s*it now).
BTW, (Zman gets on knees) anybody got a copy that they'd like to sell ($$$) or trade? I've got plenty-o-train goodies.
I'd offer a left testicle for the "Dining in the Bronx" section. :P
Oh sheet ... that's what was on da menu.
>>>>>>>I'd offer a left testicle for the "Dining in the Bronx" section. :P
Oh sheet ... that's what was on da menu
Tell ya what. If I ever get a copy of this book, then I'll rip out the "Dining in The Bronx" section for you. My palate is not fond of testicle popsicles.
Never been to the Bedford Park crew room, EH mister smarty-pants? They're in the candy machine. 25 cents a pop. :)
>>>>>>>>>Never been to the Bedford Park crew room, EH mister smarty-pants? They're in the candy machine. 25 cents a pop. :)
OH YEAH BIG SHOT?????? Well just to tell you, they're now FIFTY cents each.......................................................and they're sold out.
Hahaha ... Yep, you BEEN to Bedford ... there's a few caught in the chute but I won't press the issue. It'd require a top charge to get them out. :)
As long as those suckas have been in there, eat one and you'll have a BOTTOM charge. Talk about "take it to the end and dump it".
Heh. Yeah, you strike me as one of those guys who after determining that it ain't YOUR consist, go and kick that little dangling yellow thing on the front wheel and then whistle away on the tracks as you head to your own grab irons. Ayup. :)
Seriously though, that MTA guide from the 70's musta been a MIGHTY thin book. Lemme see for anyone who remembers ... "breakfast at Yankee Frankee" ... or that fine French restaurant, "Naydeeks" (Nedicks) ... or perhaps those 5 star Adams gum machines that only had Dentyne in pebble, rock and boulder sizes. Or perhaps a $1 off coupon for a nice thick TAD'S STEAK. Heh.
A good book displaying Transit in the 70s is called "Subway Art" its difficult to get but could be easier online then in the stores because Barnes and Nobles for example refuses to carry it because it "gets stolen too much" I swear thats what the clerck told me at 2 different locations (by Lincoln Center and at Union Square) but I love my copy.
A good book displaying Transit in the 70s is called "Subway Art" its difficult to get but could be easier online then in the stores because Barnes and Nobles for example refuses to carry it because it "gets stolen too much" I swear thats what the clerck told me at 2 different locations (by Lincoln Center and at Union Square) but I love my copy
Not surprising ... people who are into graffiti probably also tend to have sticky fingers.
har har....yea a guess you are right partialy, since the traditional way of gathering paint is "racking" or steaing.
Every day I ride the Q from Sheapshed bay to Atlantic avenue,then the 4 to 14 street(it was the 4 to fulton then a block walk to 1 Liberty Plaza).And everyday some asshole blocks the subway door from closing,then the same bastard complains about service being o so slow.Please spare me from this bullshit.In the past month,90 % of the times my train(s) had been delayed was because either some psyco called a bomb scare on the Lirr,some nut pushed a woman,man or(from now on god forbidd)a chind on to the tracks,or some loon puts his tounge or any other sanitary or non sanitary bodypart onti the 3 rail.Even though I only been through one of these situations in a month,I am getting sick of people blaming the MTA for the shit they (or you) do.For the past 15 years the MTA has been providing you and every other straphanger with the safest & best subway service their money can provide.And I for one don't appreciate it when some ditz throw their trash (or waste) into the path of an oncoming 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,L,M,Q,,S,S,S,S, or W train.And I don't appreciate it when someone curses out the train operator or conductor just because they didn't get enough info(or someone ails to hear a diversion until the final minuite).
Ah, a fellow Sheepshead Bay Brighton Line rider!
Outside of the cursing, this was very well said, and I agree. However, I have a question: Since the Q/Q and the #4 (and #5) are both going to Union Square, why transfer to the #4?
David
1st sorry about the cursing I had a bad day,The reason I transfer to the 4 is because I usually meet friends at Fulton Street.Plus the ride over te bridge is extremely slow(though If you want to get a picture of the New York skyline then I reccomend the Q,,& W).
The extra time associated with the detour via Fulton Street is assignable to the person making the detour, not NYCT. The person making the trip should allow enough time to make that detour. Slow as it may seem, the trip via the Manhattan Bridge is likely to be faster than one that slogs its way through lower Manhattan.
David
Well said... but there's another thing that pisses me off, an that's when people mark up thw windows and place grafitti eveywhere. They try to pry open doors when the train's moving... oy... what can ya do about it?
Hope that they don't
>>what can ya do about it? <<
What I would like to do would only get me in more trouble than it would the miscreants.
Amen to that!
I wish the users of NYCTransit stop acting like they are still living in a third world country.
hmmmmm...................sounds like rush hour freeway traffic in los angeles ................lol !!
I would be useing the LIRR on Saturday. So I got some Questions.
1. Where is the exit at Northport Station?
2. Do Bi-Levels run to Port Jeff?
3. Can I buy Tickets a day before I go on the train?
Thanks!
After Huntington I believe it's all bi-levels, you CAN buy tickets a day before you go. You can also buy them on the train, they normally don't tag on the 2 dollar surcharge fee. Someone else please answer the Northport exit!
You can buy your tickets up to 90 days before you use them. After 90 days trainmaen are not supposed to accept them but some do. they can be exchanged for a refund for up to 1 year.
East of Huntington, all service is diesel. That means only bi-levels out to Port Jeff.
As for the exit at Northport - it's opposite the entrance.
Correction! Exit at Northport is at the middle of the platform, at the ticket office, a pedestrian foot bridge for the south parking lot, and at the east end of the platform going to Larkfield Road crossing. All trains east of Huntington is diesel, and all of them are the bi-level cars. Some eastbound trains start at either Hicksville or Huntington for eastbounds, and Westbounds terminate at Huntington, Hicksville, or Jamaica depending which train you are on. If you had never been on those cars, they are so much better than the so-called cattle cars that the LIRR once had. They are better riders than the electrics, you'll see.
To answer the unasked question about NJT:
Tickets are good for one year including the day of purchase. The on train penalty is $3. If you use a Round trip ticket (CXheapere than two one-way tickets) to Newark(Penn or Broad), Hoboken, Atlantic City or NY Penn during the AM Rush or transfer there you havr to pasy full one-way fare. The train crew will make you pay the difference between your ticket and the cost of the two one-way tickets.
Electric- North Jersey Coast( to Long Branch only) , Northeast Corridor, Midtown direct (To Dover only), Hoboken to Dover. Diesels are barred from the Hudson River Tunnel and from NY Penn. NJT does run some diesels on therse lines from Newark or Hoboken.
The Montclair and Gladstone branches are electric also...
Montclair is temporarily diesel due to construction of the Montcalir connector which will connect the Boonton line to the Montclair Branch. The Caternary has been temporaily denergized. Once this connection is completed boonton line trains from Hackettstownm will travel along the Montclair Branch and Boonton Stations East of the connector will eb abandoned.
Montclair Branch and Boonton Stations East of the connector will eb abandoned.
Not if the residents there have anything to say about it.
Right, but that is what NJT *wants* to do!
The Boonton line trains will run down the Montclair Branch. There will be no service east of the junction on the Boonton line. This is not news, and the local residents know it.
There will be no service east of the junction on the Boonton line.
What will happen to the stations east of the Boonton junction?
Man! I have to schedule and act fast if I ever want to railfan down the Boonton Line! Hope NJT doesn't close it before we get to it.
Railfan Pete.
Those stations are soon to be history.
To answer the unasked question about NJT:
Best expressed your knowledge? Looks like you posted some info. that came out of nowhere.
Your post was inundated with broken letters which I have trouble reading like "CXheapere" and "pasy"
The on train penalty is $3.
Not if ticket offices are open or TVM's are available. Stations on the Gladstone Branch west of Summit don't have TVM's and their ticket offices are open weekdays and are closed during the evening around 6-7pm.
I still don't know WHY NJT has this issue. Does it blame people for their responsibility to buy a ticket?
Diesels are barred from the Hudson River Tunnel and from NY Penn. NJT does run some diesels on therse lines from Newark or Hoboken.
This includes the Raritan Valley line, the Waterfront Connection (from Raritan), and NEWARK EXPRESS trains. Most NEWARK EXPRESS use ALP-44's but periodically they would use GP40PH2's. (I saw three of them on the 6:20p train at Metuchen on three different days. (I SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT MY CAMERA).
Anyone know WHY diesels are allowed through the Bergen Tunnels but not in the Hudson tubes? (I'm not talking about the former PATH)
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated via e-mail.
I'll explain why in the next post.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The diesels can go through the tunnels, but the only ones that can get through are the GE Genesis class. The others are too large to get in, and then there is the matter of that 11,000 volt catenary up on the ceiling. The LIRR has two special diesel switchers parked outside of Harold Tower to use to rescue any stranded MU trains in the tunnels, but that is about it, unless someone out there knows something that I do not.
On all NJT Trains, with the exception of the Atlantic City Line,the on board $3 penalty has been waived until October 31. It was originally waived from the days following the WTC disaster until September 31, but it was extended to October 31. According to the memo, it was something about travel patterns changing, giving customers a chance to adjust. Whenever I sell a ticket on the train at one of the affected stations, I will always say "For A Limited Time Only...", this way they won't expect to pay that fare forever. BTW, an "affected station" is where there are ticket vending machines or ticket agents available. That would be the where you would normally charge the $3 penalty for on board purchase.
Are you a Conductor for NJT. If so, e-mail me off site . I have an idea for a porjwect for you.
Bi-levels? Can you tell me on which lines run these and where I can get more info. about them?
Railfan Pete.
All diesel trains:
1) north of Mineola to Oyster Bay (except the AM rush East Williston MU)
2) east of Huntington to Port Jeff
3) east of Ronkonkoma to Yaphank, Riverhead, or Greenport
4) east of Babylon to Patchogue, Speonk, the Hamptons, Montauk
5) Almost any train west of Jamaica to Hunterspoint Av or Long Island City (except a Ronkonkoma train in the PM rush, don't know about the Huntington train in the AM rush - there's an MU shortage).
Train 1621 (6:49 from Huntington to HPA) is a bi-level train consisting of 5 cars. That train was combined last summer with train 607 out of Port Jeff which had 8 cars until the schedule switch with the main line track work finished. When I am on 607, I always pass that train which is on the #2 B platform track.
Thanks for the answers! And I would be rideing the LIRR on Monday now. Since I had to go to the bronx today.
A one-way (or round trip, which in the MTA is simply two one-ways) can be used for up to 90 days after its purchase. Really much longer...I've never seen a conductor check the date at the back of a ticket.
:-) Andrew
1-I have no idea
2-yes
3-you can supposedly use tickets 3 months after purchase, Though I have used 2 year old tickets
Just to let you guys know, a four-car set of R-143's (cars 8101-05, I believe) were spotted approaching Liberty Junction. I was on a southbound A train (the 1215-A 207/FAR) at the time and I saw the brand new cars heading in the opposite direction. I guess the train was undergoing speed testing along the "flats".
Mark
What are the subway speed limits across Manhattan Bridge? Is it different by time of day? Going between DeKalb and Canal (and even Grand prior) feels like an eternity sometimes, even with no shortage of Green signals.
Also, if a W and Q/Q Express approach the inbound merged track lead to the bridge at the similar time, how do they prioritize who goes first? Do they try space out the 3 inbounds in any order?
Speed limits in the NYC subway system (Manhattan Bridge included) do not differ by time of day. However, with trains spaced more closely together during rush hours, any little "hiccup" in train flow is going to have a more significant ripple effect on trains behind the one with the problem (often as simple as someone holding the doors) than during the rest of the day. This is often simplified in train on-board announcements as "congestion ahead" (a term which, by the way, NYCT's announcement guidebook prohibits, since it's not specific enough).
As far as trains moving too slowly through green signals, this is a pet peeve of mine, and not only on the bridge (I've observed Train Operators coasting through green signals on level, straight track with no speed restrictions of any kind, mechanical or otherwise). There are timed signals on the bridge to limit train speed, especially on the downgrade. They start at 25 MPH and work their way down to around 18 MPH as the train proceeds downgrade. However, some Train Operators (especially over the last few years) are ultra-conservative and pilot their trains at well below the limit. Instead of watching the next signal turn yellow "in their face" or even as the train passes each signal, they see the next signal turn green as the train passes each signal.
As to whether there's an order by which trains are supposed to climb the Manhattan Bridge, yes, there is, and it's set by the timetable. Southbound, it's Q local/Q express/W (via bypass). Northbound, I believe it's that way, too, but I'd have to check.
David
However, some Train Operators (especially over the last few years) are ultra-conservative and pilot their trains at well below the limit. Instead of watching the next signal turn yellow "in their face" or even as the train passes each signal, they see the next signal turn green as the train passes each signal.
In GT areas, Bulletin procedure wants us to let the signal we are approaching turn from yellow to green as we pass it. This ensures that the next signal will be yellow and not red. My experience with the Manhattan Bridge timers (and with timers in many other places*) is that if I approach them at the POSTED speeds, I will hit them, since they will still be red. Prefering to keep both my job and my clean record, I will approach them at a speed I feel comfortable with, which is usually some 5 to 8 mph LESS than what is posted. Sorry if that bugs you, but IMO the choice between a little less travel time and my job is clear.
* Southbound from 103 to 96 on the 1 - posted at 30, clears at 25;
Northbound from Bay 50 to 25 Ave - posted at 15, clears at 8;
orthbound from 20 Ave to 18 Ave on the West End - posted at 25, clears at 19 in your face;
southbound from Ft Hamilton to New Utrecht -posted at 30, clears at 20;
I could go on, but you get the idea.
L Line in the river tube is the only place that I know were you race up to a red signal. I meen the timer are posted at 50mph, they don't have a luner white or a "S" under them. You don't know if they are going to change. If you know if there is a train in front of you, you take your time, if not you got it to about 25mph by the first red signal then rap it around when that one clears to yellow. By the time you get to the last red signal, if you did it right you will not see it change to green. You will be about 52mph at this signal and you can reach about 55mph or more if you have a fast train.
Robert
Since when are you supposed to race up to a red signal? Rules and regulations mandate by bulletin that you now slow your train down as soon as you see a yellow aspect displayed on a wayside signal, and by the rulebook that you never assume a train ahead to be clear for you to move. If you are not receiving a lunar white under the red aspect, or the "S" under the yellow aspect, and the signal clears for no apparant reason (no train KNOWN to be ahead of your current block position), then it is a non conforming signal and should be called in.
Oh heck. I know that you're on a warpath, but you could write up the whole L line for those reasons (why do I have a feeling that you just might?)
Since I might one day have to represent them, I have no need to write them up. I would encourage them to write up defective signals instead. But how do you "know: that it is indeed defective? One problem is the rule book conflicts here which get you into trouble. The rulebook says that when you observe a red aspect with a lunar white displayed under it, you will approach it at allowable speed according to the GT approach sign. TA says it is still a red signal, which I disagree with. The control center will argu with you that the last signal was yellow. You are screwed one way or another so when you are presented with a conflict between 2 rules, the more restrictive one applies. I would choose to write up L line management for allowing these problems to exist, and get them to put it on signals. Hypothetical question: How do you "know" if your train is taking power with the doors open before reporting it to Control?
Faulty TO indication that comes in BEFORE the CR turns the key.
It happened to me at Union Sq when I was a CR on the N. I had closed the doors in the front, did not have indication, reopened and the train began to move (not roll) Train taken out of service found to have faulty TO indication.
But as a Train Operator, how do you KNOW? If you tested the bypass circuit, you are O/S for stupidity, as you are not supposed to advance the controller until you have indication. You must also stop the train immediately upon losing indication. How do you know your deadman isn't working before reaching the terminal? Lots of hypothetical questions that you will take a beating for these days that they used to leave you alone on.
If it is a single-shot timer (lunar white or Canarsie-style)
then there is supposed to be some margin engineered into the
time setting. If the allowable posted speed is say 20 MPH, the
timer should be set to clear at 25. Of course, this was from back
in the days before speedometers, so some margin had to be allowed
because the fact that the signal cleared was your indication of
speed. If the timer is set to clear at _exactly_ the posted speed,
then the signal will clear and the arm will go down in your face!
The timers in the 14St tube are just plain ridiculous. How are
you supposed to have your train under control AND be operating at
45 MPH with the red signal less than a train length away?. Signal
dept should add lunar whites to those signal heads.
If the wording of the bulletin says "approach lunar white at
posted allowable speed", that bulletin is defective. Obviously
if you enter a block in advance of which is a lunar white timer
set for 20 MPH, but you are doing 40 when you enter the timing
circuit and then reduce speed so you are doing 20 just as you
"approach" the signal, you are going to hit it. If you were
doing 20 or less when you entered the circuit, and your speed
never increased beyond that, there was a lunar white, and
you still hit it, then it shouldn't be your fault, that's
obviously a defect.
OK, deadman.....does current rule require you to test the deadman
at the terminal? Testing the M/M indication circuit without
violating any rule....that's a tough one. Who says you have to
do this anyway? I'd advocate popping the motors with the brakes
on and the doors open at the terminal if you really wanted to
perform this test, but that's not allowed anymore.
If you were doing 20 or less when you entered the circuit, and your speed never increased beyond that, there was a lunar white, and
you still hit it, then it shouldn't be your fault, that's
obviously a defect.
I agree, that is a defect. Trouble is Control will usually ask you what the aspect of the last signal was and most will bite. If I didn't violate rule 40(N) by passing a red signal, being a red differs from a red with the lunar white, then they will rack on 98G because I passed a yellow with my train not under full control. The issue of the white light needs to be taken up at arbitration one of these days, but I imagine that once you pass the yellow, you are considered to be approaching the red, even if you can't see it yet. I think those L line guys should be slowing down in the tubes and not racing up to red signals, whether or not they also display a white lamp. Like in the Cranberry Tubes, they will eventually learn the hard way. So far they are just lucky.
In the L line tubes, almost every time I go through with a railfan window, I see GT 45 and then the red signals clear in my face. Also, I don't believe the L line has any yellow-over-S in fact there are some signals that can't show yellow at all. Please confirm?
All signals on the L line have working yellow aspects. There are "yellow-S" signals on the L line. They are all on the elevated section south of Broadway Junction.
You someone explain to those to those of us with less knowledge of the technical workings of the operations what yellow-s signals mean?
I believe they have something to do with times, but would appreciate more information.
Thanks
Bill
There is a great section of this website that explains it in detail with pictures too.
For info see the signals portion of this website.
Quickly,
a yellow S times how long it takes for the train to get from one point to another, and if it isn't too fast, it'll turn to green, otherwise, it won't change and the next signal which is red will stay red instead of change to yellow/green. This is how the TA controls speed around curves, hills, etc.
I ride the L, but do not and will not work it. I would not survive there, I would never be on time, I would always have my follower catch up to me for the simple reason that I DO NOT OPERATE IN THAT MANNER THRU GRADE TIME CONTROL!
It is the only line that can be done like this. The Singal in te river don't have any indercation if there on time or not. That why the TSS on the line told me to watch to see how close the train in front is. If I see a train two trains in fount of me I take my time.
Robert
Breaking in the T/O had me wait a minute and a half at first ave to give the leader additional time. Honestly that seems silly waiting just so you can impress a railfan on the timers. I don't like being stuck in the tunnel but some are mortally in fear of it. Me it's walking the Willy B while BIE in the rain on the midnights
I will not approach a red signal at the speed you and many other L line t/o's do in the 14th St. tube. How do I know it is going to clear just in time when I am on top of it? Suppose the timing mechanism is cranky? Suppose a signal maintainer was out there between now and the time you made your previous trip and perhaps slowed down the timer? Suppose there is a track circuit ahead and the signal won't clear? You were supposed to key by with permission from CC. But you hit the signal! You failed to have your train under control being able to stop at a red signal! How do you know that perhaps your leader stalled going up the grade just short of First Ave., he didn't get on the radio for whatever reason and a signal was red because there was a train ahead of you?
Do L line T/Os get a guide to how to go through the tube, i.e does the T/A encourage running up to the signal or are you left out on a limb?
You do not get a guide to go through the tubes. When you first start on the line, a line TSS will take you through one round trip explaining how to operate the line. You try to remember what you can and learn the line day by day.
The TSSes don't always pick you up your first trip anymore or even give you a full trip (except for the A TSSes). The L gave us a guide to the line with the speed each timer should clear at. Should being the operative word because if you hit something they don't know you.
Please post the Bulletin number. I've been looking through the bulletins, and I haven't found it (I'm not denying "Alex L."'s veracity; I'd just like to see the thing for myself).
David
I don't remember a bulletin on this, but I can verify that TSS's tell all T/O's to "pass on the green" when it comes to timers. The L line (underground portion) is the only exception.
Like Alex said, if you come up to a GT 25 area, and you do 25 mph, then there's a 98% chance that the timer is not going to clear. 5 mph below the speed limit is a generally practiced rule of thumb. In certain areas, you have to do 10 mph less in order for the timer to clear.
If you have a problem with T/O's going slow through timer areas, don't blame us, blame the Signal Dept. for not programming the timers to clear at the posted speed.
The areas I'm most peeved about -- because they're on my "home" line and I witness this almost every day -- are on the Brighton Line from Seventh Avenue to Atlantic Avenue northbound, and from Seventh Avenue to Prospect Park southbound. Northbound, the timers are posted for 35 MPH, and southbound, they're posted for 40 MPH. A friend in NYCT in a position to know such things tells me that these timers are really set for something slightly above the posted speed. Yet, I rarely see anybody do more than 20 or so in either direction. In fact, the Train Operators often go so slowly through these areas that when they pass the last timer, they're still braking -- for a (non-timer) green signal! It's a combination of poor training (which I've witnessed) and timidity, plus Labor Relations-type issues that have been alluded to on this board recently.
David
Well, you can blame some of it on poor training, but also you have to remember that 40% of the crews are R crews. They don't know how to operate the timers and were not shown how to properly operate through them. Also, if a T/O hasn't gone through an area in a while, he/she may have forgotten how to operate the area. I know that I'd need a couple of runs to get re-acclimated since I haven't operated a train in that area in about 3 years.
Maybe 40% of the Train Operators going through the area NOW are R line Train Operators, but prior to mid-September that was not the case, and the problem of going through Brighton Line timers at far less than the posted speed is nothing new -- it's been going on for years.
David
Well then, that 100% means that a good chunk of the regular Q line T/O's are WIMP-O-MATICS..................I HATE WIMP-O-MATICS.
I know that I'm gonna get a bit of flack for this.
I think you're right. A professional with experience on the job should be able to operate through the GT's, efficiently -AND- adhering to the pass-on-green rule. Overly slow is not efficient, it just ties up the railroad. The whole idea of two-shot GT's is that you're running against a Y or G aspect with no danger of tripping, vs. the R or Y proposition, with a trip thrown into the mix. 2-shots are easier on the brakes and help keep trains running at a higher average speed within the "controlled" area.
Notice I said "professional," a trait rapidly disappearing from our society in this time of over-entitlement.
If on a northbound Q, I operate cautiously and still get to Dekalb at my posted arrival time and make my M connection how am I slow?
If the timers clear to green right in front of you like on a series like the bridge you are really not losing much time. If they cleara car length in front you are.
You also have to remember that every day they fiddle with a timer in the system if you are a senior man on the line you know it because you are there every day. If I get the A once a month it's old news if it happens they slow down a timer. Chances are if Zman hit a recalibrated timer his C/O who is probably his regualr partner would not think a thing of covering it up. We all know Zman would bang himself in being so honest, like everyone here.
It happened to my already, I hit one and I had maintainers onboard they said people were hitting it all night. Or at Queens Plaza at least 3 people hit it the day of the V test when they brought all those extra crews in for the test.
The last time I had the A they screwed up and thought I was someone else I did not get held at Euclid, Jay or Canal, they caught up to me at 59th when the D was local one day after the WTC. I was held for at least 7 minutes and still got to Dyckman early. Thank God no other subtalkers were on that train they would still be complaining.
"If the timers clear to green right in front of you like on a series like the bridge you are really not losing much time. If they cleara car length in front you are."
Many times, Q Train Operators let the signal in front of them clear to green at least a carlength ahead. THAT's slow.
David
If I am running warm I do that to cool down before supervision cools me down, if I am on time I am more aggressicve to make a cushion and if I am late and it is my fault or the conductors I run aggressively. If I am late and it not my fault I no longer try to make up the time I run at normal speed because if I am already 5 late (for a door problem) there is no way to make it up during the rush because the platforms will be murder.
If you make your time there is no reason to push it, in fact you do the job harm when you do.
It's better, in my opinion, for supervision (meaning Train Dispatchers) to make such decisions. They can see what's ahead of an individual train and what's behind it. In addition, Train Operators adjusting their time on their own leads to a vicious cycle, in which:
1. Trains run slowly.
2. Either Traffic Checkers recording times put down those slow times, or RTO asks for more running time.
3. The Schedules unit adds time due to results of the traffic checks or RTO request.
4. Trains run MORE slowly.
In summary, every effort should be made to keep to the posted schedule. However, if the schedule is unrealistic in terms of running time, it should be adjusted -- this includes REDUCING running time as well as adding it. However, if Train Operators intentionally run slowly, this will get picked up by those monitoring such things and translate into additional running time that isn't really needed but looks like it is.
David
>It's better, in my opinion, for supervision (meaning Train >Dispatchers) to make such decisions.
Er, they do. They tell you when they want you to get to certain places on the route, in fact it is the train operators rule book responsibility to try to keep to that schedule.
There actually is a bias against extending times, pretty much anything under 5 minute late is ontime. So if every single T/O is 5 late they would not extend the time.
You are also missing the point that there is nowhere to go. Even when I am ontime on the A I usually lose a minute or two at the terminal because both pockets are full. Or I run into a C leader in the tunnel or a D at 59th St. In the meantime I ruin the spacing they want in the service. If your leader is on time it's bad service to ride their ass all the way to the terminal. Part of the timetable is meant to make even service and give a minute or two cushion for the unforseen which happenss everyday and at different places and in different ways almost every day.
Left out of this formula is the conductor. The difference on a fast and slow conductor on the midnight A can be as high as 5-10 minutes.
Er, they do. They tell you when they want you to get to certain places on the route, in fact it is the train operators rule book responsibility to try to keep to that schedule.
Provided it can be done safely. Don't forget about our little loophole.
>>>>>>>>We all know Zman would bang himself in being so honest
I think that you would've been proud of my spittake when I read that.
Another area T/O's seem to be cautous about is the E/B Steinway tube. Going from Grand Central there is hefty downgrade, trains will go fast until they get to the 1st ave GT's, then they are supposed to go the posted speed (I think it's 15mph) then at the P sign they are told to wrap it. The timers in the tube will clear no matter how fast you go after that point (according to a road instructor I saw on the 7). But most T/O's don't wrap it after the P, and are on the brakes until the last one goes from red to green, way ahead in the distance.
The result is little momentum and a slow ride through the Steinway tubes.
Are you advocating getting rid of GT 409? PLEASE! That is one of the most ill-placed GTs in the entire system. Only ONCE have I seen a T/O play it correctly; it's hard to judge and it comes right in the middle of a nice run. What the heck is it there for anyway - and don't say it's there to protect Malbone Street Station from a runaway train of BU gate cars!
wayne
The timers on the southbound Brighton Line from Seventh Avenue to Prospect Park (those are the ones, right?) are there to protect against a southbound Brighton train overrunning the Prospect Park station and fouling a Franklin Shuttle crossing in front of it. Only problem is, Franklin Shuttles just about NEVER do that! The timers are signed at a rather generous (for NYCT timers) 40 MPH, but, as I said, if the Train Operator goes through them at over 20 MPH it's a lot.
David
I'll say! Most of the T/O's I've seen treat GT 409 like the Troll under the bridge; they approach it with extreme caution and pussy-foot past it. The sign DOES state 40MPH. The one time I saw it played correctly was a southbound Slant Q, with #4150 (the original!) the lead motor. The T/O quickly got the R40 up to about 42 out of 7 Avenue then well ahead of 409 let it coast and when he reached the GT timed it perfectly; he was doing 37 at the signal (the cab door was slightly ajar).
wayne
Maybe we'll get lucky on the 25th.:-)
It seems like in the unlikely event of a Franklin Shuttle pulling out onto the SB express track, it would be adequately protected by approach signals on the express track being previously set at stop. Unless this is proven the switch won't move reverse in the first place. GT's alone aren't enough protection in this case.
Dave
I gave the reason -- didn't say it made sense :-)
David
I understand that you're frustrated David. When I ride the trains as a passenger, I "rate" the T/O's operation myself, without being up front. When my Wife is with me, I'll tell her "This T/O's a good one" or "This cat can't operate for s*it. Where'd they find him? Can they put him back?" Not a whole heckuva lot you can do about it except to maybe stumble upon a good T/O's run (and C/R's) and try to time your commute to it.
If I recollect, there's an approach at the north end of the station platform, that will trip any train with at least 600' feet of stopping distance before the switch in question. I'd be more incline to think the GT's protect the curve iself.
David, my fault. I go around quoting this one so often because it gets referred to incorrectly, and this time I did it. The original post should have said: By incorrectly referenced Bulletin, TSSs want us to...
Here is the Bulletin, followed by some more comments:
Bulletin 35-98 May 28 1998
To: ALL Employees (Especially Train Operators)
Subject: PASSING CAUTION SIGNALS
NYCTransit has engaged a consultant to perform an analysis of the existing signal system...Deficiencies in the stopping distances and safety margins of certain signal locations have been identified...In light of this TOs are reminded of their responsibility to adhere strictly to Rule 98(g) which states:
At anytime when passing a fixed signal indcating proceed, prepare to stop at the next signal, TOs must govern the speed of their trains so that there is no possibilty of their running past the next signal, should that signal indicate STOP. They must reduce speed to conform with Speed Limit Signs and other instructions before reaching curves and continue at the presribed speed until the entire train has rounded the curve. TOs must approach all STOP signals, trains ahead, junctions, and terminals with their trains under full control.
In order to ensure full compliance with this rule, effective immediately and until further notice, TOs observing a caution signal (yellow aspect) will adhere to the following instructions:
IF THE NEXT SIGNAL IS NOT VISIBLE OR IS RED
TOs will immediately place the Master Controller to the OFF or COAST position, and begin the braking sequence, if necessary, so that by the time the yellow signal is reached they are proceeding at a reduced rate of speed, prepared to stop at the next signal.
Please note that caution signals associated with Grade Time areas displaying an illuminated S or D are exempt from the above instructions. TOs operating in Grade Time areas governed by these signals will operate in accordance with the posted speeds.
Me again. The Bold statements above are as they were in the original bulletin. This bulletin conflicts with itself and the rulebook. As I noted previously, if I approach certain GT areas, with an illuminated S or D at the posted speed, I will put the train into emergency, since the red signal will not clear in time. After showing this Bulletin to a Superintendent in System Safety, he told me that if I operated per this Bulletin and hit a signal in such an area, he personally would clear me of all charges, because, "apparently, you're the only person who can read this correctly."
Since I'm writing this long before I post it, I did finally find the the place that usually gets quoted - In the Manhattan Bridge Route Guide that was prepared by District #3, on page 3, is a section entitled MOVEMENT THROUGH GRADE TIME TERRITORY, ILLUMINATED 'S' SIGNALS which says:
To move safely thru grade time territory incorporate the following into your operational approach. While in approach to each successive signal:
*Allow the displayed yellow aspect and associated illuminated 'S' indication to change in position, form and color to green
*Consider the general braking effort of the consist
*Percent of grade
*Posted maximum allowable speed for the area
*Prevailing weather conditions which may affect whell to rail adhesion
*Familiarity with signal and track configuration
So as you can see, no one around here can actually give straight answer to some of these questions of how to deal with timers; so the best advice I can offer is - operate as fast as you feel comfortable with thru GT areas, as long as you don't actually hit the red signal.
My understanding of Bulletins vs. Rule Book is that Bulletins supersede the Rule Book. Eventually the Rule Book is reissued, incorporating changes instituted by Bulletin. So where there is a conflict between a Bulletin and the Rule Book, the Bulletin takes precedence.
Any Train Service Supervisors or above out there who wish to comment on this?
David
Your assumption is absolutely correct.
Don't forget when they say 30, that means 30 for the whole block, you can't enter the block at 35 and slow to 30 and say you cleared it. I'm not trying to offend a T/O. I myself am not a T/O and do not want to seem like a know-it-all, I'm just offering an idea.
The timer is supposed to start when you pass the GT sign, which is not necessarily at the start of a block. I can arrive at the GT sign at all of those listed areas doing the posted speed and THEY WILL NOT CLEAR.
That's bad, problems like those cause all T/Os throught the system to approach timers going far below the posted speed refusing to accelerate until they see green. This results in a lot of speeding up and slowing down giving the passengers a bumpy ride.
>I'm just offering an idea
Even though many old timers could not state the formula they are MORE than familiar with average speeds thats how they can be going overspeed when they hit the last timer in the tunnels. That is how people can hit 60+ in some areas.
On the Manny B the posted speed is 25 for the timers as you are going uphill when you start to hit the timers you never reach 25 and will still trip them.
On the Sea Beach line in both directions betweeen Eight Ave. & 59th St. there are one shot timers (the ones with the red and illuminated lunar white aspect). The posted speed is 25 MPH, but you have to go less than 10 MPH in order for them to clear. Is it too much trouble asking signal dept. to either put up the proper GT sign or reprogram the timers to clear at 25? Also, around the time I left the E, all of a sudden one day a timer in the Cranberry (A&C) tube was slowed down without notice or GT sign being changed and several guys hit the signal. A timid train operator is one who has a better chance to stay out of trouble.
Unfortunately there is no incentive for a t/o to run on time. In
fact, because of the draconian disciplinary stance of RTO in
recent years, there is a strong dis-incentive against any kind
of "rapid transit" operation. If a t/o runs fast and hits a GT,
he or she is screwed, but if that same t/o dogs it day in and
day out and consistently comes into the terminal a few minutes late,
what's going to happen? Probably nothing. If the t/o is really lucky
he or she will get a late clear.
I used to think that most of the T/Os and Conductors who dogged the road could get away with murder in the TA under the excuse we are working to rule. But when we run late, we are harrassed and taken O/S just the same. The existance of Labor Relations hasn't changed over the years, their policies have since the union negotiated the 70/30 clause, which deducts 30% of my wages if I choose to work during a period of suspension, rather than take days in the street. A monetary incentive to write us up in the first place. But now in the year 2001, Line Superintendants are given Cart Blanche to assist those in Labor Relations in the overall quest to save the TA money. If the Incident Cover Form states further discipline checked, LR takes it from there.
If I run my train late due to a fog order and I am the only train late due to the fog order, I will be the one questioned for a written report by the Supt. Not the other 35 who ran their train in a reckless fashion. If on the other hand I run my train fast, ahead of schedule and run into holding lights on every trip, I run the risk of passing a stop marker, station platform or red signal. So here, I have to pick my weapon carefully. In the TA, the Supts are under pressure to present an on time railroad downtown. They will put pressure on their "favorite" crews to make up time. But when a SORC unit TSS cathes them with a radar gun over the speed limit or attempting to save time on door cycling, the Line managers either look the other way or tell you to be careful. Or even their own TSSs are writing up the infractions, in which there is a remote possibility to squash the discipline. But they usually don't so it goes back to the 70/30. In 1988 while a new conductor on the K train, I had a cab door fall off the hinges and isolated the car. One of the old practices was to cut out DC1 and 2 rather than cut out each door and of course under Murphy's Law, a door flew open and I had to see the line Supt. He was in charge of the discipline and my mistake didn't happen again. Now, the only recourse is re-instruction and it doesn't happen as much as it used to. So the bottom line, when the TA stamps a bulletin with "Every Second Counts", they are referring to the time you have left before seeing the trainmaster, or the time and a half you will put in for your troubles for obeying the rulebook. 'Nuff said.
The other end is that some trains can't make it up the hill in series...and the RTo's slam the throttle into parallel. Maybe if they release the snow brake???? Peter
I guess you're darned if you do, darned if you don't.
Right. I will get suspension time if I hit the signal. So I choose not to hit the signal, at the expense of customer convenience. Even if I am later to the terminal than others. I choose harassment over a 30% cut anytime and will take that to arbitration if necessary. I was once demanded for a written report on my conductor while working an N job because she took a comfort at Coney Island because on a supplement schedule, we left the terminal 6 minutes late. We clearly had 12 minutes turnaround time on paper, but because we really had 5 minutes due to late arrival, and because the dispatcher are still doing their railroads in pencil and "on time" and refused to work with me and my conductor, I wrote up the dispatcher instead of the conductor.
"NYCT's announcement guidebook"
Is there a way I can get one of these?
Write to NYCT and ask. Either they'll send one or say no.
NYC Transit
Division of Rapid Transit Operations
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn NY 11201
David
I went out and got a copy of the Bill Newkirk's Subway Calendar, and I must say how wonderful it is to see images from NYCT's past.
My favorite has to be the trio of R-17s coming down the West Farms El right around the bend into E. Tremont Av. Anyone notice how clean they were? Right out of the paint shop in coats of yellow and black!
Those were the days. The picture shows something you don't see anymore, as those R-17s no longer run, but have since gone into the big sky above us. At the front of the train is a survivor: 6895, which is still here, in 2001.
We see far less old IRT work motors since the R127/134 took over Refuse Operations some years ago, making the work motor a piece of history.
Great job, Bill.
-Stef
Stef,
Thanks for the compliment. On the image of the yellow R-17s, isn't the third car (#6801) originally part of the air conditioned consist that didn't work out ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I ordered mine by mail for the 4th year in a row and am, looking forward to it
That should be the one. Wait..... Let me check something - Cars 6800-09 had the experimental AC. You are correct!
-Stef
I like Miss October a little better, a R-17 earning her keep on Broadway at 181st.
Mr t
6614 was on the south end of the train. Wanna take a guess what was on the north end? 6688!!! @#$!
-STEF
Today's Wall Street Journal has a feature article about the obstacles to rebuilding Downtown Manhattan. Not surprisingly, given the paper's focus, much of the article deals with is starting to look like a strong reluctance on the part of many displaced businesses to return to the area. Of the ten businesses with the most space in the World Trade Center, one only, Deutsche Bank, has so far committed to returning to Downtown, while another one, Empire Blue Cross, has said it definitely won't be back. Several other companies haven't announced any plans but have quietly signed long-term leases in other locations. The article also points out something most of us probably have suspected, that the spirit of cooperation so evident since September 11 will likely have the shelf life of unrefrigerated fish during a heat wave.
Unfortunately, a couple of the article's comments concerning transit were more questionable. It said that three stations on the 1/9 are "wrecked." Say again? Only Cortlandt Street suffered physical damage. Fears that Rector Street was damaged proved unfounded, and trains are running through Chambers and Park Place (though not stopping at the latter due to area access limitations). The article also mentioned that thousands of commuters used the E line World Trade Center station. While it didn't come right out and say that the station was destroyed or damaged, that certainly was the implication; we know, of course, that the station was undamaged and is being used to turn trains.
As a businessperson, I've always regarded the Wall Street Journal's credibility as being somewhere between CNN and Fox News channel. I can't say I'm surprised, they covered Lucent and @home's fortunes with about the same degree of quality. :)
And this surprises you? That the media can't talk intelligently about the subway system in the town they live in?
There are three stations on the 1/9 that are currently not in service - therefore they must be wrecked, otherwise the trains would go there. I just went through this one with two CRs and a Dispatcher and had to finally give up, because they couldn't be bothered to listening to facts.
just remember how well the media do with with what you know--then imagine their capability when they send reporters out who don't even speak the local language.
The WSJ reported back on 9/24/01 that ex-WTC tenants have rented about 7 million square feet of new office space since 9/12/01. 66% of the space is in Manhattan, 33% of the space is in the suburbs. Too early to tell if this is a trend, but you know that once a firm moves out, they're gone for good.
On the weekend of 10/13 & 10/14 all WMATA will not collect fare on buses and subway.
Wayne
Any particular reason for this sudden outburst of generousity?
In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, tourism has been way down in DC, so they're attempting to get more locals to come downtown and spend money.
The Washington Post article says more...
Now, if only the MTA would do the same...
Or , at least free return from a tourist area on the weekend. this way only half fare. Near Zoos,sports complexes,mueseums,entertainment areas, shopping centers... recreation spots! The time and weather are right to bounce back!
avid
The Smithsonian reports a BIG drop in weekend tourists. There's no line to see the Hope Diamond!
So hop on a plane to DCA (just reopen), stay in a hotel (only 20% filled), eat in a DC restaurant (no reservations needed), and ride the Metro for free (no fares collected at all)!
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
Is it this weekend? Maybe if the weather holds I will go to the zoo, Orange Line to the Red Line
Nope, Next weekend.
still good, my niece has the flu and I have been promisingto take her to see the Pandas at the zoo
2 down 363 to go
Received from the TA by mail the 9/19/01 Map. Is that the latest or did they publish a new one since then.???
The map dated 9/19 is the latest one. It's possible it might have had corrections made.
No it has the E out to Lefferts
My friend just e-mailed me that MTA has issued the Map dated 10/1/01. Does any Subtalk get this map?
Chaohwa
That is just an online version.
They have not issued a new printed version yet.
Was the last printed "The Map" dated 9/19 where the E is going to Euclid?
>>Was the last printed "The Map" dated 9/19 where the E is going to Euclid? <<
Yes.
Thats the one I received today
They gave the 10/1/01 map today out to Stuyvesant students who are returning to battery park City.
On the way home tonight I picked up some of the 10/1 maps but they are the single sheet editions. I imagine that a regular full folded version dated 10/1 will be out shortly.
Actually, that one's out already... probably wont see it, but it's out. my friend just got one today... he said they were handing them out at the station... (sorry, don't know which one)
Yes they have, saw it at Woodhaven Blvd on the G/Q Friday Oct5.
I got one at Rock Parkway on the L. It is the same size as the color version of the 1 page 9/19/01 map (with no RR info or service info).
In as much as it does not show Chambers IND being open I expect another map any day now.
And $105 billion in overall damage, says Comptroller's Office.
Here's the article.
Seth
And $105 billion in overall damage, says Comptroller's Office.
Here's the article.
Heed the cautionary note in the article. The city wants to paint as bleak a picture as possible, in order to get as much federal $$$ as it can. The $3 billion figure for subway repairs ought to raise a few red flags - after all, the estimates for building the Second Avenue line are $1 billion per mile. Replacing maybe 1,500 feet of tunnel on the 1/9 and rebuilding the Cortlandt Street station can't remotely approach the cost of even one mile of totally new construction on Second Avenue.
Assuming they are not talking about a complete rebuild to the entire IRT/IND/BMT/PATH connection under the World Trade Center site, the $3 billion estimate to fix between 4-5 blocks of subway tunnel and one subway station comes out to $2 million a foot. Toss in the work on the BMT at Cortlandt and the cost goes down to about $1 million a foot.
I believe Hevesi and the MTA is probably going to have to offer a little more detailed explanation of their plans to get this one by the people down in Washington. Of course, Hevesi is going to be out of office in 85 days, so he can toss around any number that comes into his head...
Hell, I'll bid on the job if BMTman is game to come to work for me as a partner. :)
Assuming they are not talking about a complete rebuild to the entire IRT/IND/BMT/PATH connection under the World Trade Center site, the $3 billion estimate to fix between 4-5 blocks of subway tunnel and one subway station comes out to $2 million a foot. Toss in the work on the BMT at Cortlandt and the cost goes down to about $1 million a foot.
Federal disaster-relief assistance should not be used for a complete rebuild of the type you describe. Assistance of this sort, like insurance money, is meant to restore damaged property to its original condition, not to make it substantially better than it had been. Now, I'm certainly not saying that a totally revamped connection under the WTC site would be a bad idea, but only that it should be funded from sources other than disaster assistance.
I believe Hevesi and the MTA is probably going to have to offer a little more detailed explanation of their plans to get this one by the people down in Washington.
On the other hand, if even a fraction of the horror stories I've heard about FEMA's accountability standards (or the lack thereof) are true, Hevesi and company actually may be able to get their $2 million per foot.
So, maybe, just maybe the BMT/IND Connection at Cortland is still a faint whisper of a mere glimmer of a remote outside possiblity of a chance of an ice cube in HELL!
Barkeep, wine for my troops! We ride at Dawn!
avid
I have a feeling that the repairs needed are so extensive, they're including the costs of making the Rector and Cortlandt stations ADA compliant, and a few dozen other things. Don't forget, no one knows WHAT the hell it really looks like down there.
-Hank
I have a feeling that the repairs needed are so extensive, they're including the costs of making the Rector and Cortlandt stations ADA compliant, and a few dozen other things. Don't forget, no one knows WHAT the hell it really looks like down there.
I'm pretty sure that Cortlandt Street would have to be made ADA compliant because it'll be either replaced or completely rebuilt. From what I have heard, Rector had no actual damage, so whatever cleanup work will be needed probably wouldn't be enough to invoke an ADA requirement (though of course that should be done if at all possible).
Whatever the final cost is, someone -- Hevesi, the MTA, whoever -- needs to be able to spell out the exact reason why they came to that $3 billion figure, and the figures for several other projects, or a few months down the line, the rest of the country will be back to the attitude that New York politicians spend money like a drunken sailor.
The other downside to this is if it does cost $3 billion just to repair 1,500 to 3,000 feet of subway tunnel where the right-of-way is already in place, there's no way in hell the city is ever going to get the funding from the federal government for a Second Ave. subway, if a $1 million to $2 million a foot cost estimate becomes the standard quote from the city comptroller (the most recent Second Ave. subway cost estimate, at $1 billion a mile, comes out to about $190,000 a foot, and that's for a line where the ROW is only a place in a few selected spots).
Maybe Hevesi will be able to document the costs of reconstruction and justify the $3 billion price tag, but IMHO it sounds like either he or someone in his office is thinking, "Everyone feels sorry for New York right now so lets highball all the cost estimates by X percent and get as much money as we can." If that's the case, Hevesi is definitely a comptroller in the same mold as Abraham D. Beame, and that's not a compliment, because down the line the actual costs will come out and it's not going to make whoever's in charge of New York then look very good.
3 Billion Bucks to fix the subways and I haven't left a copper penny on the yard tracks to see what happens next. Peter
I doubt the $3 billion. We might have lost a couple of trains, however. And many NYC capital projects have been delayed, which costs money. The Rail Control Center, Automatic Train Supervision, and Public Address/Customer Info systems are particularly affected: their field offices were in the WTC, along with the main contractor's office (Siemans) in NYC. Everything there is gone. And, the fiber optic cable was supposed to run up from South Ferry loop.
There also may be an attempt to make some improvements. ADA compliance is one, and mandatory. Full train platforming (maybe a three track terminal) at South Ferry is another. I'd like to see a like to the Jorolemon -- one thing this has shown is the benefits of flexibility. On that score, why don't they ask the FEDs to build DeKalb-Rutgers; we sure could use it now.
Go the Dekalb-Rutgers one better - build a completely new tunnel under the East River connecting Brooklyn an Manhattan so that people can leave the cars at home and use mass transit. Full utilization of all tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Station would be really something, and the bellmouths north of the E terminal at Chambers St. could be the point of connection for the new line. the C local woud have its own connection into Manhattan from Brooklyn, and if a GO necessitated the closure of the Cranberry tunnels, the new tunnel would provide access without the need to take people out of their way to get to their destinations. How about it?
Full train platforming (maybe a three track terminal) at South Ferry is another. I'd like to see a like to the Jorolemon -- one thing this has shown is the benefits of flexibility.
A link between the West Side IRT into the Joralemon tube at SF makes perfect sense if only for the added flexibility.
It would be nice if a new SF station were built into the Joralemon tube approach; make it four track and this would effectively replace Bowling Green.
why don't they ask the FEDs to build DeKalb-Rutgers; we sure could use it now.
That would be nice, but wouldn't a link across Prospect Park to the Brighton, or south under Greenwood Cemetery into the West End be faster, cheaper, and less disruptive?
That would be nice, but wouldn't a link across Prospect Park to the Brighton, or south under Greenwood Cemetery into the West End be faster, cheaper, and less disruptive?
Let me get this right...
You want to dig up a cemetery? That's not gonna fly.
You want to tunnel across Prospect Park? That's not gonna fly either. (Although, I like the prospect park idea.)
(That would be nice, but wouldn't a link across Prospect Park to the Brighton, or south under Greenwood Cemetery into the West End be faster, cheaper, and less disruptive?)
It would be much longer, and could only serve one of the lines going through DeKalb. A branch off north of DeKalb could provide access to them all.
The confusion of the article is it mixes one time losses (buildings, subways to be replaced) with ongoing loses (devastation of the NYC tax base, lost wages), though perhaps it tries to capitalize them.
I'd say that to keep NYC and State afloat $5 billion total in direct subsidize will be required next year (to cover tax losses and higher social services spending). What happens next? It depends on the recovery, but should drop to zero after five or fewer years. That plus replacing capital losses should keep the City and State afloat.
Private losses are another matter. People have donated so much that (with insurance, social insurance, and other factors) those who lost loved ones could be set for life financially (if the money is distributed correctly). The non-financial losses of couse won't go away.
Indirect losers -- those who lose their jobs -- are an even bigger problem. The NY State Dept. of Labor says September employment figures are as of September 10. They are going to try to capture the results of the disaster in the October data.
Can we use Osama's "frozen assets" to help pay for the subway damage ?
You know......all 300 million dollars of it.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have always wondered how the ticket collection system works for conductors on MN/LIRR/NJT? Is there a secret code on those papers they stick in your seat after taking your ticket? Do they tell how many people are sitting in the seat? Where they are going? When a train makes a stop and a hundred people get on and a hundred get off, how do they know who was already on and who wasn't? It always was a mystery to me. It seems theres so much room for error. What about people in the bathroom when the guy comes? I guess they can just stay on for one stop and get a free ride, no?
Does anybody know the answer to these ever-so-important questions?
WS
When your transportation is lifted, a seat check is placed at your seat. The seat check is punch with your destination (one of the numbers on the seat check). Sometimes crews will tear the seat check to mean different things, sometimes they will punch it twice for one check for two people.
I've had my seat check stolen while I was not paying attention. I've also had someone sit down next to me in a triple seat and claim the seat check is his and that I just got on.
9 out of 10 times the if you tell the trainman that you already paid they let it go.
Yes people sneak on; it is not a perfect system.
You have to be careful.
Once, when my wife and I were travelling on NJT, we handed the conductor 2 tickets to PJT, and he only gave us one seat check. I figured he knew what he was doing until his colleague came by and asked one of us for a ticket. He let it go after I explained that we gave his buddy our tickets -- two of them -- but you never know when they will be sticklers. This time, their mistake almost screwed me.
I was travelling on the MNRR New Haven line late one weekday evening. I was very tired, and just about asleep, when a fellah got on the train and sat down for a minute or two waiting for the train to depart . Once it started moving, I watched him grab a seat check about two rows in front of me off a person who was sleeping. After seeing this bit of crime, I immediately grabbed my own seat-check to hold in my hand in case I fell asleep. A few minutes later, the conductor came by. Now, since this conductor wasn't born yesterday, he demanded a ticket from the guy, but the guy was adamant that his seat check was valid. The conductor spent a couple more minutes trying to get the guy to pay, but he wouldn't. Why didn't I speak up, you ask? Well, I was riding all the way to GCT, and who knew how dangerous this fellow was. It was late, and I'm not a huge guy myself. Thankfully, the conductor was there to attend to the situation. To make a long story short, we were delayed a bit at 125th St. while the cops arrested the guy.
The moral of the story is: Always keep an eye on your seat-check.
I had an amusing seat-check incident on the LIRR some months back. I had just gotten a Discman, and was listening to it at what was probably an unsafe volume. The conductor came by, I showed him my monthly ticket, and he put a seat check on the back of the seat in front of me. Somehow, the seat check disappeared soon after, whether it fell or was taken by someone I don't know, as I was reading the newspaper.
A few stops later, the conductor came back and (presumably, as I couldn't hear him over the music) asked for my ticket. I replied "I already showed it to you." The conductor looked really startled, reeling back away from me, and several other passengers turned to look.
Then it dawned on me. Being unused to music blasting in the earphones, I must have bellowed at the conductor instead of speaking at a normal volume. This realization made me laugh out loud, causing other riders to stare at me, which of course made me laugh all the harder. If I hadn't already been on the train at the Deer Park stop, the other riders would have thought I had just escaped from Pilgrim State.
Here is the NJT System:
From NY Penn- Newark passengers get no seat check.
Elizabeth is 2 (as is North Elizabeth),
Linden is 3, Rahway is 4, Metro park 5, Metuchen 6. Edison 7. New Brunswick and Jersey Ave 8, Princeton Jct is 9, Hamilton is torn in the top center and trenton is just punched West.
to NY Penn code is the same. If yuou get off at newark you get a torn in the top center seat check and NY Penn is unpunched.
For service to metro North points, the MTA block is also punched. Color varies by crwew member and day of the week wjhich can also be punched. The top center can be punched for multiple riders sharing a seat. If you change seats or go to the restroom take your seatcheck with you. If you stand and move- take it with you.
ForNorth Jersey Coast and other lines the system is similar. Some crew members will return the punched ticket isntead of a seat check. if you have to change trains your ticket will be returned.
Thwe punched ticket or seat check will be taken after leaving the station before yours.ie- NY Penn seatchecks will be collected afetr leaving Newark Penn.
Not that I'm looking for a way to beat the system, but is the color the only thing that differs from trip to trip? In theory, it seems like if you take the same route every day, you can just start collecting the seat checks. Then when you get on, notice what color is being used that day and stick yours in there. It just seems to me like there must be sooo many ways to get around this method.
Also, is there any way to tell for example, in 3 seater, in which 2 people gave tickets, and one person boarded later, who is the one who didn't pay? Or does the seat check system only tell you that there is one person out of 3 who didn't pay?
WS
Not that I'm looking for a way to beat the system, but is the color the only thing that differs from trip to trip? In theory, it seems like if you take the same route every day, you can just start collecting the seat checks. Then when you get on, notice what color is being used that day and stick yours in there. It just seems to me like there must be sooo many ways to get around this method.
On Metro North, the conductors use a variety of different dies on the seat-check punch, changing them regularly, maybe even daily.
I don't know if NJT and the LIRR do likewise.
On the MBTA (Boston area commuter rail), seat checks are used. But each conductor has his/her own method. Most don't punch; they just stick one in the seat as a reminder. While many colors are available, there is no "color of the day" and you can find a rainbow of seat checks in use. On the three seater side, if a conductor sees two checks and three people, he/she just stands there until someone produces a ticket/pass (of course, it's usually the person in the middle who got there last!).
Seat checks are only used inbound, since tickets are only checked when leaving the Boston terminal outbound. So few people board outbound at other stops, that the conductors can usually remember who they are. This means, of course, that one could use a "zone 2" pass outbound for a "zone 6" ride. But inbound, that would fail since the passes/tickets are checked after each station. As commuter rail passes are good for unlimited bus, subway, trackless trolley, and streetcar rides (i.e. no additional charge!), they're very popular.
Here are the types of monthly passes sold by the MBTA.
Here are the different zones.
Here is the commuter rail zone map.
NJT does have different dies and on the same train a different crew member may have a different color. Seart checks are collected by the crew member after leaving the station before your station. ie- NY Penn to New Brunswick. Your seat check will be taken after the train leaves Edison. Sure, sometimes they dont take the seat checks, but the next day the same crew member will use a different color.
A ps- sometimes more than one crew member takes tickets from the same car. You could happen to have the color used by person #1(the seat check color is the same color as is there by the person in the next seat) but another crew member(#2) comes by and they use a different color and they (#2) know that #1 went to another car and they (#2)did not take your ticket.
Just be honest and pay your fare! fare beating leads to higher fares for all of us and deprives the road of funds which could be used for new cars, station improvement, and maintenance.
Read http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=273195 and see how it is handles on the South Shore RR.
Spotted a R44 on the E this morning at about 930 in the 67 AVE station. The E train was just about all r-46 today so I didnt really pay attention that much. However when it was passing i noticed the painted over blue stripe and not the bear metal. I think one of the car numbers was 5207, but not positive.
#5207 would certainly make it an R-44. It has been many moons since an R44 has been seen on the "E", I believe it was 1977 or 1978 when the fleet went from Jamaica Yard to 207th Street.
Wonder what its ex number was (I have the list at home)
wayne
Wayne, you can read the conversions here. The answer is 137.
Chaohwa
Nice to know so many r/44 are un-GOHed. Were they considered too trashed to rebuild? Where are they now? Are they being used as organ donors?
I know I sometimes sound like a broken CD, but could these OUT of Service R/44s donate parts and systems to go to R/42s to create R/43s, not to be confused with R/143s, to make 660 ft long sets for use on the "E" and/or "F" trains betwixed Jamaica and Canal ST. or Church St. Terminals
I won't go away from this idea!
avid
Some non GOH'ed R-44 MU's were on the scrap tracks at SBK last year.
What's an R43?
I didn't know the R44 could share parts with the R42. Well, they are from arround the same period.
:-) Andrew (No engineer!)
I don't believe they can. The R44 was a radical change from previous 60' cars, and not just in it's length and appearance. The R44 is even mechanically incompatible with the lookalike R46.
EXATLY! Thats my point. Take this R/42 car body and use R/44 46 or 68s system compatible innerds. All this to allow 11 car and 9 car sets to utilize platforms to their fullest. WE've all seen the difference in couplers, heard about the different propulsion systems and the various electrical and control systems.
Take some redbird singles and salvage what usable systems can be used to convert r/38,40 and 42s to be at a point where nine and eleven car sets can be used on the IND "E"& "F" lines and the eastern and southern BMT "J"&"M" lines.
The same with out of service R/44s and R/42s. The astute student will note that the figmentary R/43 fits between the R/42 and R/44.
It would be a Hybird illegitamate basterd spauned from the combined parts of the R/44 systems and the R/42 platform ergo R/43. The r/42 has the nearest visually similar body to blend well with the R/44,46, and 68s.
avid
avid
An R-43 is a locomotive... making one out of two subway cars would be like taking apart a Lincoln Continental, putting it back together, and ending up with a Corvair :).
HEY...the Corvair was a damn good car...exceopt for that annoying habit of the rear wheels tucking up under themselves and causing the car to flip at high speed.
Too bad Tennesee Ford had to die in one.
Peace,
ANDEE
I had a Corvair - a 1964 MONZA, it leaked oil like a sieve and had no exhaust system; you could hear it a mile away - I called it "The Motorboat From Mars". It was good in the snow; it melted its way through snowbanks and had great traction cause the engine was in the rear. The day I junked it, three scrap dealers wanted it so I let them draw straws for it - the guy who got it wound up making a dune buggy out of it.
wayne
Yea....by 1964 they were decent machines.
Peace,
ANDEE
I bought it in December 1974 for the princely sum of Twenty-Five dollars. It didn't have one of its headlights and I got a ticket coming home from Manhattan (where I bought it). My mechanic refused to inspect it. I kept getting parking tickets in front of my house for uninspected; my Dad wouldn't let me park it in the driveway cause it leaked so much oil. It was a real junker that's for sure.
wayne
In their heyday, some people referred to them as "leakers" instead
of Corvairs. My mechanic buddy had a lot of laughs about that!
Chuck Greene
Their engines had bushings for the crankshaft instead of main bearings.
i owned a collection of them the oil did not leak.!! you have to replace the o rings on the tubes that hold the pushrods
also you should not torque the oil pan gasket too tight etc.. change the oil at least once a month use 40 wt oil.....
wash your engine remove the top engine cover wash all the dirt off of the finned cylinders etc... clean & replace the oil cooler !!
If you know all of the tricks they did not leak or throw off fanbelts !! The corvair was my first car & i loved them all !!
i also owned the grembrier window van which was my favorite of all & did you ever see the lakewood wagon ??
I also dug all of the pre -world war 2 rolling stock too !!!...............
HEY...the Corvair was a damn good car...exceopt for that annoying habit of the rear wheels tucking up under themselves and causing the car to flip at high speed.
Too bad Tennesee Ford had to die in one.
Ernie Kovacs the comedian, actually. You're probably confusing him with Tennessee Ernie Ford, who died of natural causes in old age.
Trivia point: both Kovacs and Ford made guest appearances on I Love Lucy.
You are right. I did mean Kovacs. Thanks for the correction.
Probably something to do with both of them being on I Love Lucy. The mind is turning to mush in old age. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Both had mustashes, and used Vitalis Hair Cream to Excess!
Was it Kovacs or Steve Allen, that jumped into the huge tank of
Jell-O?
avid
I think it was Kovacs that did the jello jump....more his style...Allen was toooo uptight to do this type of stunt....IYKWIM
Peace.
ANDEE
I wonder if the Vitalis had anything to do with Allen's classic breakup as Bill Allen. He mentioned that his hair "looked dumb" during that one particular show from the greasy kid stuff they used in those days and it made him laugh, and "it just went out of control totally after that."
I believe that was the skit as "Injun Joe -Sportscaster", where Steve Allen's classic laugh went bonkers. I still crack up when I see that tape , and Steve goes totally out of control, switching his hat, and trying to compose himself. Every attempt just resulted in even more uncontrolled laughter!!
Chuck Greene
i did not have that problem because i had even tires & inflatdthem proper !! ..................lol
what? we agree on something ?? ..all hell is brakin' loose ............lol!!
A number of unGOHed R-44s were simply scrapped. I don't know whether or not there are any more unGOHed R-44s.
#3 West End Jeff
Was there any good reason why these UN-GOH'ed cars were scrapped in the first place?
Well, let's see: #215 split a pillar, #288 crashed into a bumper block, #315 had a fire, so did #227, and the others I am not sure of but the reasons could have been mechanical (#109, #120, #385, #176 etc).
wayne
There were a fair number of R-44s that were scrapped and never went through the GOH program.
#3 West End Jeff
My heart just sunk to the floor.
avid
Why did Pitkin give over some R44's to Jamaica?
That is VERY odd, since with the "R" down, Jamaica has a surplus of 27 trains of 8 cars each. The "E"'s normal requirement is 21 or 22 trains.
When the E ran to Euclid, it got some Pitkin equipment. I guess when they jerked it back to Canal Street, some Pitkin equipment was trapped in Queens.
According to an associate on the Queens Blvd. corridor, there were no R-44s scheduled to run in E service. They were also not aware of any re-routes that might have caused this. I cannot verify the story until Monday but at this point, it appears that either a train was re-routed or it's a case of mistaken identity.
Or a school car.
I didn't even know R44s and R46s could run on the same consist. (Or did they?)
:-) Andrew
They can't.
You're right. And in fact collegeboy didn't say they did. Just that there was a train of R44s.
---Andrew
Yes you are right, I never mentioned that they were on the same consist. It was one E train of R-44's and I am positive that they were R-44's and not 46's. I was able to spot the smaller cab door as it passed.
I have seen R-46s on the "E" but this is the first time I've heard of a train of R-44s on the "E".
#3 West End Jeff
They were on the "E" starting in 1971 until around 1977 or 1981.
Well, the R-44s have been sighted on the "E" once again. I'll stay tuned to find out more.
#3 West End Jeff
It would be better to know if any physical differences (other than painted over blue stripe) were spotted between the R44 E and the R46 trains.
Oo. I wish I was on one...
Railfan Pete.
There are a number of other physical differences between the R-44 and R-46.
The R-44 has glass panels on either side of each of the doorways; the R-46 used to, but they were removed in GOH.
The R-44 cab door is narrow and is on hinges; the R-46 cab door is wide and slides. (The R-44 cab itself is also smaller, but the average passenger can't tell.)
I think the faux wood paneling is used differently on the two car types.
There are probably other distinctions.
There are probably other distinctions.
I know one. Air pressures in the cab are different. Thus resulting in the different sounds of the air releases usually when R44/46's leave the station. The sound on the R44's sound like air coming out of a certain tight balloon, while the R46's have a nice, steady flow of air.
Also, R46's electric motors seem to "Rev-up" much faster than that of R44's which have a steady rise.
Railfan Pete.
R44 on the E.This was bound to happe sooner or later.
Just got my Sept/Oct issue of the trade "Metro", won't be their best issue of the year, BUT on page 92 is a very nice shot of #205 newly arrived in NYC. The article talks about APMs & states that NY will 6th with a driverless train after Copenhahen (12 mi); Singapore (12 mi); Greece (6 mi); Turin (6 mi) & Vancouver (12 mi).
Mr t
And the Metro magazine screwed up their annual survey again. Dallas, San Antonio, El Paso and others reported to have "TrolleyBuses". It does not match their description of what a trolleybus is. Plus NYCBus reported to have lost 536 buses from last year. Somebody did not count the paratransit vans this year.
Thurston, APM=Automated People Mover?
When is the JFK airtrain supposed to be built as to connect with the A line at Howard Beach? Is the train station going to be closed down for a few weeks so make the connection? How are people going to transfer between the train and the shuttle bus if the station is closed?
Since I'm 300 miles to the south, I checked the web site to check on the alinement. The Airtrain rails and the NYCTransit rails don't even touch each other. Transfer between NYCTransit and Airtrain is a bag-drag affair.
While the rails don't touch, the pedestrian parts of the station are going to be rebuilt, IIRC, to minimize the bag dragging.
Any idea when they're supposed to start building and finishing it?
Unofficially the work is ahead of schedule. Next year it will start running between terminals at JFK and later to longterm parking and last to Jamaica by late 2003 early 2004. I would not be surprised if the whole thing was done earlier. Some of this may depend on the pace of the terminal they are building for it in Jamaica as part of a new ADA compliant LIRR complex.
Most of the ROW is up all the way to Jamaica.
Mr t
All the way to Jamaica station and work is being built for a connection for custoners to connect with the LIRR and the subway. But I'm more wondering about the same kind of connection for customers to connect with the A train at Howard Beach with the Airtrain.
The Airtrain does not connect with the A.
What?? Do you think the Port Authority was going to allow a direct connection to the MTA?
How are they going to prevent it? The Airtrain platform and the A train platform are closer together than some of the platform combinations at Penn Station. It's never stopped people from changing trains there.
I think he means there is no track connection.
I wasn't refering to a track connection. I was more interested in an easy connection for customers to go from the subway to/from the airtrain. When will that start being built?
The Air Train station is there. Didn't get off the A to see the specifics. Suspect a esclator connection.
Mr t
The Air Train comes in over the A ... on a recent "Field Trip" to Long Beach we saw it first hand.
Mr t
Listen guys! Did you ever see a street fight. It's really ugly and not much fun to watch because it has no point. Take the same two guys, train them, put them in a boxing ring and you can enjoy the bout. You guys are likely really nice guys in real life but you are train-buffs and this is turning into a really ugly street fight. You both should try to leaarn a lot more about the subject before you try to put on an entertaining fight. I'll bet you can learn more from each other than by all this sparring.
Now look what you've gone and made me do. I won't be able to show my face at work Monday....
But you are off with the rest of us on Columbus day, or did you forget?
avid
As a matter of fact, Monday is a full service day so I'll be at my desk before 6 AM.
6 AM? Oh please. That's sleeping in.
J and Luch: Shame on you two. Did you see what you made Train Dude do. He had to become a kinder and gentler person, and that is completely out of character for the straight shooter. Now damn it, cut that feud out. Take a page from Brighton Express Bob and me. We love blistering one another but it is all in good fun and we are best of buddies. OK Dude, you too. J and Luch have been given the word by me and you can now go back to being the real Train Dude, and not the one I just read. Feel better now?
For a sec, I thought TD was going el-softo.
TD, please stay away from those "Carpenters" albums. They make you a little mushy.
On Thursday Oct. 4, 2001, I timed alternate routes between Christopher Street and Exchange Place. Counting from when the PATH train left Christopher Street, walking to Newport HBLR, waiting for a streetcar, and a slow ride to Exchange Place: 25 minutes. Towards the big town, counting from beginning a hike from Exchange Place to Grove Street (with hundreds of office workers), waiting for a 33rd Street train; we glided through Christopher St. 31 minutes from Exchange Place. I'm really surprised that the HBLR option won, but I guess the shorter distance does win.
Hudson-Bergen was operating several sets of coupled cars, even one to West Side Avenue. Signs indicate that the PATH Quickcard is valid between Newport & Exchange (but PATH turnstiles swallow the last use of a Quickcard).
The parking lot at the Liberty State Park station was full at 3:30 p.m. At E. 34 Street, the pedestrian bridge over the "CNJ" to a bus loop and parking lot is open.
>>(but PATH turnstiles swallow the last use of a Quickcard). <<
One would think that if you are a regular user of PATH knowing that the card is going to be "captured" on the last use you would have another QuickCard with you.
What stations of the Light Rail connects to the Path?
Exchange Place provided the closest connection between HBLR and PATH. Now the PATH station there is out of service. The walk from the PATH platform at Pavonia up to the HBLR platform at Newport is six or seven minutes. Thanks to the thick-headed politicians of Hoboken, the HBLT will arrive at Hoboken at the south end of the concourse, not adjacent to PATH.
It will still be a shorter walk at Hoboken than at Newport.
From a fairly reliable source, the R-143s will be IN SERVICE on October 15th.
Wow! I hope it's true. I'll be sure to ride one as soon as I can.
:-) Andrew
I don't know whether to cheer, or cringe.
On the L?
Seth
What lines will the R-143's be assigned to? SethLJ mentions the "L". Who else?
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
The L will get the lions share of 143's with the M getting a few as well.
I heard the L will be all R143. The surplus will go to the M for OPTO at night.
Still miss the R1/9's.
And I'm sure they miss you too!
From a HIGHLY Reliable source, they will be back out of service :-)
Does this begin the anticipated 30 day test where if the slightest thing goes wrong while the cars are on the road, the clock is reset?
Correct...whether it starts on October 15 or another date, this is the 30-day in-service test.
David
Will this free up some equipment for the expansion of M and J service during the emergency.
Will this free up some equipment for the expansion of M and J service during the emergency?
I don't think so, only one train will go into service for the test. -Nick
Sweet...I'll be in NYC on 10/15 (leaving 10/16) if the Yankees-Oakland Series goes to a fifth and final game....this timing would be great!! -Nick
Is this program worth buying? Does it have major bugs?
Any input is appreciated.
I had it now for 3 months. No problems for me so far. Very nice I must say. Worth the money. If your system exceeds the minium requirments then you should be fine.
Catch it on sale. Purchased mine at CompUSA when it first came out @ $29.95. It was never that low again.
I understand new lines/equipments have been added recently. Also several subtalkers are working on some subway versions.
I just got mine used for $15 plus postage via private transaction. Should be arriving any day now.
"I understand new lines/equipments have been added recently."
Are you referring to fan add-ons? I'm looking forward to NYC Subway routes. In the meantime I'd recommend BVE. It's free! They have some NYC Subway routes. The #7 by Ernie Alston is probably the best so far.
Are you referring to fan add-ons? I'm looking forward to NYC Subway routes. In the meantime I'd recommend BVE. It's free! They have some NYC Subway routes. The #7 by Ernie Alston is probably the best so far.
Ernie did a good job on the 7 train. His is the best of all the NYC subway routes, and the only one with C/R announcements at all the stations. Have you downloaded any of the other (not NYC) subway routes? I have the London, Glasgow, and Vienna subway lines, they are all very good. I also got the Fukoka subway, but I can't get it to work.
David
No, I haven't downloaded any of the non NYC subway routes. I'm pretty much fixated on NY but if you've got a good recommendation for some of these other routes I'd probably check them out. Any of them as good as, or better than Ernie's?
On the BVE circuit, I'm told there's a REALLY NEAT Sea Beach route but alas, it's hosted on a "communities.msn" site and I *refuse* to be branded by an MSN "passport" ... sure would love to see it for download on www.crotrainz.com or somewhere else where you don't have to smooch Bill Gates' butt to get to the page. But if them's the conditions, have to do without the Sea Beach ...
Ernie's Flushing line is exquisite, as is the "G line" ... and though it contains a few route graphics errors, the R to Queens isn't bad either. And none of these requires a Microsoft passport.
How you doing my man? Where do I get the G line I can't seem to find it can you link me please?
Yo, and Moohaki!
The toy you're looking for is here:
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/routes/NYCT-G/index.html
Damn thing ends at Court Square too. Just like (sniff!) the "real thang" ... watch the closing doors.
haha thanks a lot man, but you should really out aside your Gates Grudge, and get ahold of a working copy of MSTS, you'd really enjoy it
You're most welcome. I take it you missed my continuing saga here on subtalk when it was released about "MSTrainWreck(tm)" having gone through over 20 sets of CDROMs before I found one set that was pressed correctly and loaded without error, only to find that it would not run at all with only 64 megs and a non 3D graphics video card. While my system met or exceeded the "recommended" it never went in and wasted over 30 hours of my time that could have been spent earning a living.
As far as I'm concerned, I hope they have a couple of pieces of ordnance left over after we flatten Osama Bin Shaved so we can drop a few of them on Redmond. Once this is done, programmers will come out of the woodwork, freed of the oppression of Gates and Ballmer, and will create an operating system that will actually WORK. :)
Interesting, no as a matter of fact I remember your ordeal with the defective copies, thats why I said you should get a "working" copy. But yea maybe if they bomb redmond the software prices might go down, I may even avoid purchasing a bootleg working copy of MS office 2002XP for $5 on broadway and canal.
Heh. Well, I finally DID get a "working copy" but once it ate up the hard disk and memory, it was STILL broken. Unless you have a VERY SHINY new box, ain't no trains gonna run on it. Since my computer is here at work, they're NOT gonna buy me a 3D superduper graphics card with 3D audio, gamepad and the whole nine yards. What gets me is I've got several train sims which all work just fine. MSTS was the only thing I've ever installed that blew such large chunks. What gets me is Kuju's (sp?) train sim (which Microsoft stole) works JUST FINE though it requires that you run it on Japanese Windows (won't run at all in English), so clearly MS screwed it up.
Considering that I like Mechanik to begin with, BVE is just the *teats* as far as I'm concerned and has several real NYTCA subway lines. I tire of the Acela. :)
In msts I'm working on the following routes:
culver shuttle 60 % complete
Brighton line from still well to 34 st( before 9/11/01)Might include the coney island yard. Also AI train for B,N,F one one activitiy, w,n,f on another activity, and M,W,Q on another act.
Flushing line 40 % complete.
reskin the series 2000 car as nyc subway cars.
Current fleet:Train /test in msts/ download / comments
R68 D compeleted not avail working on the detail of the skin
R40 Q compeleted not avail
R143 L completed not avail
R134 not in serv didn’t test not avail
R44/r46 F compeleted not avail
R42 J didn’t test not avail
R42 K didn’t test not avail
R42 L didn’t test not avail
R42 M didn’t test not avail
R42 Z didn’t test not avail
R42 not in service didn’t test not avail
Past Fleet
R44/r46 bluest F compeleted not avail
R42blue strip D didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip E didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip F didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip J didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip KK didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip LL didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip RR didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip QB didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip QJ didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip M didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip not in serv didn’t test not avail
Future routes:
Franklin line
west end line
and other routes.
here's some pics of the routes and subway cars i'm working on.
culver shuttle route
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/culverroutepics.msnw
nyc subway objects for msts
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/mynycsubwayobjectspics.msnw
nyc subway cars for msts
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/mstsnycsubwaycarspics.msnw
flushing route
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/flushingroutepics.msnw
Future Routes:
Franklin line
west end and other lines
hers's my site to get subway skins and routes(not avail now)
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/main.html
thank you good to know, I cant wait to have NYCT routes for MSTS
What is BVE's. I thought that they were of MS Train Sim but they are not. I also tryed to download things that say they are for MS Train Sim but I can't figure out how to install that.
Robert
MS Train Simulator is a lot of fun … provided that your system has the horsepower to run it. Read the minimum hardware requirements carefully, and check with someone who is knowledgeable about PCs if you’re not sure. If your system just barely meets the requirements, Train Simulator will run choppy, and you’ll have to tweak the settings to get it to run satisfactorily.
If your system can run the program, though, I highly recommend it.
Hope this helps.
Jim D.
Does it eat up a lot of memory?
<< Does it eat up a lot of memory? >>
Sadly, yes … Train Simulator is a HUGE memory hog. I had to limit my installation to the Northeast Corridor and Marias Pass routes, because my 8 GB hard drive already had numerous other programs loaded on it. As a result, I plan to soon upgrade to a bigger hard drive.
Jim D.
BART (San Francisco) is currently looking for T/O's. The pay is actually better than the pay for NYCTA T/O's (by about 40 cents an hour).
Click on the link at www.bart.gov
On the same page, you will see info on October "BART Career Expos". Click on that link for more info.
BART had better be paying higher salaries -- even with the dot.com collapses, real estate in the Bay Area is still way higher than even the New York metropolitian area.
My cousin's house in Marin County, which would go for about $200,000 in Queens or S.I. has dropped from about $700,000 in valuation to somewhere in the low $600,000s lately. The price still sounds great, but if you sell, you'll have to move about 50 miles further out to buy another home at the same price or move into a condo with less space. Anyone taking a BART job would face the same problem, though at least the commute to work would be partially free...
You didn't mention that it's for part-time Operators.
Oops.
Well it does lead to full-time positions.
It's more like a "Conductor sitting in the front" position. Not much operating going on. Occasional horn-honking and OPEN button pushing necessary.
Yup...doesn't make for enjoyable railfanning...
Vote for the Best Subway System, be honest
A) New York City Subway System
B) London Underground
C) Russias Subway System
D) Bay Area Rapid Trasit
E) Los Angeles Subway
F) Tokyo Subway System
Think hard and be honest
G)Dayton MVRTA
The Dayton Metro has my vote!
Mark
The dayton metro is a real big LOL !!! & the "subway map " just knocks me out big time !!! .........LOL !!
www.mvra.org: The Onion of transit websites!
-- David
Chicago, IL
We've had this thread on SubTalk a few times before, and the favorites and definitions of "best" are as varied as the people who post here.
Here's a few of my choices:
Best architectural design: Washington Metro (overall), London Underground (Jubilee Line extension).
Most extensive coverage throughout the city: New York
Best variety of stations and types of rolling stock: Boston
Most valiant effort at trying to re-invent the wheel: BART
Most scenic transit system: Chicago
Coolest escalators: London Underground
Least crowded subway: Cincinnati (Cincinnati's subway, unfortunately, also has the longest headways: 70+ years at last count.)
Shortest headways: New York and London (tie)
Most impressive transfer station: Five Points station on MARTA.
Most impressive use of exposed rock: Peachtree Center on MARTA.
Best subway access to city's airports: Chicago
Best use of a single letter of the alphabet: The Chicago "L" (close second: Boston's T).
Best use of a transit logo as a pop culture icon: London Underground
Best system for those who want to ride trains forever: London's Cirlce Line (second place: Detroit People Mover)
Best system for sheer complexity: New York
Best system for sheer simplicity: Balitmore Metro
Best fare control system: New York and Chicago (tie - both are identical)
Best after-hours operations: New York (distant runner-up: Chicago)
Coolest-sounding subway cars (very subjective): Bombardier 01800's on the MBTA Red Line
Best system for those who really hate air brakes: Chicago
System with the most unfulfilled potential: New York's IND
Enjoy, and feel free to add more categories (the more weird and offbeat, the better).
-- David
Chicago, IL
How about the complex that Rupe Goldberg would be most proud of: Broadway Junction/Eastern Parkway on the BMT.
David, it's a shame you have not been to Paris. I think you will find it an architectural treat. Perhaps a field trip next year ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Paris is very high on my list of cities to visit. I'm also lusting over the prospect of riding the TGV system. I'm already developing an itch to get back to London... Maybe I'll finally be able to take the Eurostar over to Paris for a couple days. Tried last time, but the plans didn't work out at the time.
[*sigh*] Maybe someday...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Cleanest Singapore Best Rush Hour Service Hong Kong 90 minute headways, speed Hong Kong. Central to Airport Exp 3 stops 25 minutes 22 miles. Local 33 minutes
>>>>>>>>Best Rush Hour Service Hong Kong 90 minute headways
Aw cmon. The bus system in Martha's Vineyard has more frequent service. Mind you that their rush hour ends at 3 pm.
90 second, and trains are full
>>>>>>>>Best system for those who want to ride trains forever: London's Circle Line
You typed it wrong. It should've read:
Train ride that feels like it's lasted forever--Circle Line
And howwwwww could you possibly have left out the London Underground subway cars for "coolest sounding". The AC motors whirring on the Jubilee Line and the pinion gears of the Piccadilly Line have got my vote.
And howwwwww could you possibly have left out the London Underground subway cars for "coolest sounding". The AC motors whirring on the Jubilee Line and the pinion gears of the Piccadilly Line have got my vote.
As I said, it's a very subjective thing. The sound of those Jubilee Line trains has remained in my head since March, and it was a struggle to pick between that and the MBTA 01800's as my favorite. I guess what swung me in favor of the 01800's was that the AC traction sound is much more subtle, and unlike the Jubilee Line trains, the 01800's are nice and big.
I agree that the Jubilee Line trains make a very cool sound, though... You should have seen the huge grin that spread across my face when I boarded the Jubilee Line for the first time, the doors closed, and the train's motors revved up as we departed Westminster. No telling what the other passengers thought was on my mind!
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>>>>>and unlike the Jubilee Line trains, the 01800's are nice and big.
London is NOT the place for big trains, that's for sure.
>>>>>>>>You should have seen the huge grin that spread across my face when I boarded the Jubilee Line for the first time, the doors closed, and the train's motors revved up as we departed Westminster. No telling what the other passengers thought was on my mind!
I know exactly what you mean!
So how many seconds did it take for the seats on either side to rapidly vacate?
Best system for those who want to ride trains forever: London's Cirlce Line (second place: Detroit People Mover)
Doesn't Tokyo also have a circular line?
Possibly, but I've never ridden on it. (In fairness, I've never ridden BART or DC Metro either, but I've done a bit of research about both.) IIRC, the Moscow Metro also has a circular line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Try the Bart for speed, especially thru the Tube under the bay. Over 70mph
And it's sooooo loud. I was getting a headache when I rode thru there.
Yes and so does Berlin, and I think Munich has a cricle line also
System most likely to look exactly the same 100 years from now: Philadelphia
System most likely to be left out of "most likely to lists": Philadelphia
LOL!
I have a special place in my heart for Philly (I may even end up living there for a while to finish school), and believe it or not, I tried to think of a single superlative about SEPTA that I could include in my list, but to no avail.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That neither surprises nor offends me:)
OK, how about this? 55 mph express trains.
Eat your heart out New York.
Good point, but the best you'll be able to do on that one is a tie with Chicago. Our express trains -- as well as our locals, for that matter -- also routinely go 55 MPH between stops. And while BART doesn't have express trains per se, ther trains go 70+ MPH and I suspect their "local" stops are typically further apart than the express stops in NYC or Philly.
Okay, here's a couple:
Best integrations of light rail and heavy rail subways: Market-Frankfort and Subway-Surface lines in the vincinity of 30th Street Station.
Best effort at making marker lights understandable to the general public: Broad Street Subway
Subway train that best resembles something from one of Tim Burton's Batman movies: Philly's Broad Street Subway (runner-up: M4's on the MFL)
-- David
Chicago, IL
>> Best integrations of light rail and heavy rail subways:
Market-Frankford and Subway-Surface lines in the
vincinity of 30th Street Station<<
Runner up, the VART Civic Center Station as originally designed--stairs directly from thr lower BART level to the middle (now) MUNI Metro light rail level.--Just remove the stainless steel caging.
the saddest thing about 30th st Philly is the demise of he direct platform connection tunnel from the PRR NY-Was line to the PTC (SEPTA) fare control area.
My favorite piece of trackwork however is the W 4th St and monster junction immediately south. Stunning.
>> Best integrations of light rail and heavy rail subways:
Market-Frankford and Subway-Surface lines in the
vincinity of 30th Street Station<<
Runner up, the BART Civic Center Station as originally designed--stairs directly from thr lower BART level to the middle (now) MUNI Metro light rail level.--Just remove the stainless steel caging.
the saddest thing about 30th st Philly is the demise of he direct platform connection tunnel from the PRR NY-Was line to the PTC (SEPTA) fare control area.
My favorite piece of trackwork however is the W 4th St and monster junction immediately south. Stunning.
I know what a feeling at W4 to have trains not only below you but above you at the same time!
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I want to add a category. For best single station I vote for the Peachtree Center station on the Atlanta MARTA orange line. The station is a huge cave carved out of bare rock. It is truly beautiful.
Also, I disagree with your choice for "System with the most unfulfilled potential." I'm going to vote for Philadelphia's SEPTA. So much city, so few lines.
Mark
heh, I live in atlanta and my marta ride is lindbergh - peachtree center every day... the station is nice, is so deep and they (stupidly) built the escalator as one full-length so walking up it is a trek.
i wish they would bring some r-68's down here... the marta trains are so ugly and slow...
how come marta never built an express track or at least a 3rd track?
Allen
Have you ridden the new MARTA cars? They're way better than the old ones with the 70's orange and creme interior and smelly carpet.
They don't have a third track because there really isn't enough capacity to justify having one. The current setup can handle several times more people than it does.
I ride MARTA every now and then when I'm in Atlanta, and I was wondering about something. Since we had a thread about fantasy lines in Philadelphia recently, I'd like to hear from the MARTA riders about where they would build new lines if they had billions of dollars and no red tape.
Mark
I would first add trackage to make all existing lines express from the end points, 5 Points, and Lindburgh Center. I would then add a line conntecting to the Doraville station running up the 285 loop thru Dinwoody to Hightower.
A line covering the top half of the perimeter is a must. I'd then extend the North and Northeast lines into the 'burbs. Provisions already exist at three points. I'd use them to create a line branching off the East line that goes into southeast Atlanta (let's call it the South Dekalb line), then a new Northwest branch off the North line into the Cumberland area and intersecting the Perimeter line, then another branch south of East Point into the planned east terminal of Hartsfield and on to the South 'burbs. A new trunk line west the the North-South line that would come off the Northwest line, intersecting at Omni/Dome, then turn east and intersect West End, then meet up with the new South Dekalb line.
I bet that sounds confusing.
I ride marta almost every day and here are my thoughts:
• add an express track to make an express doraville, lindbergh, peachtree ctr, 5pts, airport
• add a line up into cobb county (dont worry we will carry stun guns for the "bad" people that the marta thinks is in cobb)
• add more bus service
• add better trains, get rid of the auto announcements
• bring down some train cars from nyc for us ny'ers
• AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, GET US THE NY YANKEES, THE BRAVES SUCK ASS!
I think MARTA's main mistake was not initially designing the N/S and E/W stations with at least one express track in mind. If they ever decide to lay express tracks, and eventually they will have to as lines grow, they will have to do some major redesigning of the existing stations. Had they designed at least room for a center express track adding one would be much easier.
i totally agree with you... they just opened sandy springs and north springs and again did not built for the future..
well the more i deal with the city, the more i see that ny is so far ahead its sad...
here to drive my car i have to pay a yearly ad valorem tax which on my 2000 jetta is 300 a year... ny my registration was 80/2yrs...
someone must be getting rich
It's funny how 3,000 NYers like yourself move to Atlanta every year, why is that?
The design of MARTA does not warrant a need for express tracks. Where the NY subway stops every few blocks or so(ie. 14th st and 19th street, W. IRT local), MARTA is more of a commuter line with several miles between stations (especially the stretch b/t buckhead and dunwoody.) It would be a waste of money. MARTA should spend it's money on buying more trains and building extensions. The only express run I could ever see being implemented would be a train to the plane from maybe five points but that still would only be a concession to those suburban dwellers who didn't want to ride with the "riff-raff" to Hartsfield.
Nappy
My grandparents moved to Atlanta from the bronx (NYC), and i visited Atlanta many times during the summer months (i Live in the Baychester section of Bronx, Ny). Marta has alot of potential, as far as expending and adding to existing lines, it all has to do with politics and race in reasons for them not being built as I and many others think they should be....... I would extend the North East line past Doraville along I- 285 goin east, onto I 85 north into gwinnett county, with stations on jimmy carter and as far north as hwy 316 with a park and ride for commuters heading from Lawrenceville and Duluth (that extention is much needed considering the back ups on 85 north of the perimeter). Extend the East line to serve Stone Mountain, and possibly Lithonia and other west suburbs along I 20 eastward. Extend the west line just outside I 285. Extend the North line into Alpheretta. Extend the bankhead spur to perry homes. Branch line from east point to hapeville and future planned east terminal at hartsfield airport. Spur line from East line into south east dekalb county..possibly the South East line where the busway was planned. North East line along 75 north into Cobb County. short spur line spun off of the North Druid hills line plan. Of course these lines will never be built....people are so scared if they have a train running from the city center to their back yard it will bring crime and people of lower class to the suburbs, which in my opinion is racism.....they don't have to build the tracks directly in a neighborhood, they can build them near the expressways with park and rides for commuters to drive or take the bus to like the LIRR or metro north.... oh well
Strictly from an operational point of view, I would say the Sao Paulo Metro. The system has a mere 30 miles of route, yet it easily handles half a billion riders a year. The system is automated, headways are at 100 seconds, the stations are clean and safe, and the system is very fast. The stations have a unique way of dealing with large crowds, with seprate boarding and alighting platforms. Be sure to look out for a new section on nycsubway.org about the SP Metro. I wrote up an overview and took some pictures. Should be up by next week.
From a railfan point of view, here's my list of the ones I've ridden, best to least best:
1. London (the original is still the best)
2. NYC (noisy, dirty, gritty, I love it)
3. Sao Paulo
4. San Fran - MUNI
5. Montreal
6. Boston
7. Atlanta
8. Toronto
9. DC
10. San Fran - BART
11. St. Louis
12. Miami
NO 2 ways about the ""dayton metro"" subway system is # 1 ONE ........hands down ........lol !!
& all of ther subway cars have { RAILFAN WINDOWS } !!!!..............yea !!!!!!
1.New York City Subway:Exellent express runs,alot of history and Some of the most unique subway cars there is(Also city loyalty)
2.Miami Subway system:An easy to remember system(It only has 2 lines) and alot of suburban views.
3.Long Island Railroad & Metro North:Even though these two aren't subway systems I enjo alot of the senery(I like to travel).
A) New York City Subway System
B) London Underground
C) Russias Subway System
Is this the subway that runs from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok? What's the fare? How much did it cost to tunnel under the tundra in Sibera?
D) Bay Area Rapid Trasit
E) Los Angeles Subway
F) Tokyo Subway System
G) The Sunway (fake)
You have not ridden the LA Red Line, have you?
You have not ridden the LA Red Line, have you?
No, the Sunway is the only fake subway I've been on.
Then you don t know what you are talking about
[Is this the subway that runs from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok? What's the fare? How much did it cost to tunnel under the tundra in Sibera? ]
No it runs from Kaliningrad to Vladivostok, there's no stops in Lithuania and Belarus, like W Berlin subway used to be.
Arti
...you mean you really have to ask?
NYC.
if you got a rail fan window then you ahve the best subway / rail system !! ....lol !!
A of course!!!!!
G) ... NYS Capitol Subway - running for over 100 years and *NEVER* had a delay. :)
Sewers don't count Sel.
Unless it's an "electric sewer" like the TA has.
Heh. Actually, the "Capitol subway" is a long underground walkway between the capitol and the Alfred E Smith Office building which runs under Capitol park. Keeps our porcine anointed from frizzing their butts off in the winter. Up here, summer lasts about four weeks. :)
But there in the hallway of the capitol on the ground floor is one of those arty-deco signs that says SUBWAY over the doors that lead to it. I was jazzed when I first saw it ... until I found out there weren't any trains to steal. Heh.
Best subway system in the world? Are you guys out there kidding? Come on, it's New York's. Good God, do you think that other subway systems have a bunch of lunatic fanatics extolling the virtues of their systems? You hear not a peep from them. And let me tell you something else. You will find no Train Dudes, Q's, Trainloco's, Brighton Express Bobs or Sea Beach Freds on any of those sites, or even a reasonable facsimile. Of course, not having any of the last guy m entioned might actually be an asset instead of a debit.
Of course, not having any of the last guy m entioned might actually be an asset instead of a debit.
That would probably depend on who was making up the balance sheet!
That does it, Unca Fred ... it's REHAB for your arse. The Albany subway has no tracks, no trains and more pander bears than you can shake any part of an elephant at. Now we *know* you've been smoking that stuff from south of the border. :)
Hell, around here even your toonerville trolley would be an improvement. This is a northbound D train, next stop Neck Road, watch the closing doors. Heh.
Hey Kev, did you ever get the urge to shout out the next stop while perched on the step plates of a prewar D train?
Nope ... wasn't part of the job. But when I got a 32 as a conductor, it was an instant radio show. I had SO much fun with the announcements, they put me back on the R1/9's ... imagine me in one of my ballbusting moods here, then give me a church key and a PTT button. Ayup ... back to the R9's. :)
Up here, summer lasts about four weeks. :)
From your posts I get the impression that you are somewhere in the Albany area. Then you make a statement like this and I think you must be in Rouses Point.
Just how cold is it? :-)
Well, according to the naval observatory (wait, unbuttoning shirt) ...
NYZ038>040-047-048-051-058-063-090835-
FULTON-MONTGOMERY-SCHOHARIE-SOUTHERN HERKIMER-WESTERN ALBANY-
WESTERN GREENE-WESTERN SCHENECTADY-WESTERN ULSTER-
545 PM EDT MON OCT 8 2001
FREEZE WARNING TONIGHT
TONIGHT
MOSTLY CLEAR AND COLD. LOWS IN THE MID 20S.
WIND BECOMING LIGHT AND VARIABLE.
TUESDAY
MOSTLY SUNNY AND WARMER. HIGHS IN THE MID AND UPPER 50S.
SOUTH WIND 5 TO 15 MPH.
Does that sorta do it for ya? :)
At 8:45 PM the temperature here is 38 degrees and falling. Our forecast here is almost the same thing, and I would guess we must be about 300 miles southwest of your 10/20.
Honest Kev, we get a hell of a lot more than four weeks of summer here!
SSShhhhhhhhhhh! Gotta keep up appearances for dem english down in de city. They think that anything north of Yonkers is CANADA ya know. :)
But yeah, your forecast is my forecast and it's going to be snuggly weather tonight. Having grown up in da Bronx, the coldest morning I remember vividly, it was +9 degrees and we was sheeting a peekle. Up here, +9 is a daytime HIGH. Heh.
Could you just IMAGINE folks in the city dealing with -32F? Heh. But you know how it is then - the four seasons - winter, almost winter, still winter and "construction season." :)
Kevin, just an inocuous question. If the weather is so crappy where you are why do you live there? I mean there are many places where the weather is much more pleasant-----like the North Pole. Come on, there is something up there that keeps you in that area. Maybe you are just sandbagging the rest of us. It's not that bad, is it?
Heh. It ain't that bad at ALL ... sure it's cold over the winter here. Sure we need to pay $500 every now and then to bring in a front loader that's taller than the damned house to clear the 3/4 mile private road up here.
I'll let you in on a secret. I *hate* heat and humidity. The summers here (for 3 days at a clip maybe 3 times a year, it gets as ugly as the Bronx in August here) are very nice, even if they're short. I LOVE the snow, I LOVE the solace and peace of living in the sticks, far removed from noise, pollution and nonsense. I LOVE the bunnies on the lawn, the wild turkeys and keeping a genuine "meadow" instead of a suburban lawn ... but most of all, I love the QUIET here.
I've travelled all over the world and frankly, there's no place in the world like upstate New York. Can't imagine living anywhere else. Our local government doesn't even RECOGNIZE the "national parties" and it's a place where no one cares what your religion, your politics, whatever. You can DIE up here in the winter and that causes folks to realize what's REALLY important - the pleasure of each other's company, we're all in this together, and we really genuinely NEED each other - I'll watch your back, you watch mine. And if you need some help, I'm here for you knowing you'll be here for me.
In other words, terrorists don't stand a CHANCE up here. Everyone KNOWS each other and if anyone needs a hand, we KNOW everyone else will be there when we need them. Tell me how many other places on this planet you get that? And the price of admission? You come running when needed to. Pretty decent price I think.
What we have up here in upstate NEW YORK is just what folks in DOWNSTATE NOO YAWK need to. Never has the importance of watching each other's back and being civil, ensured that everyone is in this boat together been so important. For once, we are ALL ONE!
If we really adopt this message among ourselves and others of like mind, then terrorists will go CRAZY ... for they will not be able to shake us anymore if we're ALL each other's keeper. You really FEEL that in places like where I live. Why would I want warm beaches when I have warm souls? Why would I want success when I already have it in the midst of good people who have soul?
I have my riches ... among my fellow hominids. :)
Kevin: Seems to me you really have the best of everything. If what you said was true, then it stands to reason that there are gazillions of people who would readily change places with you. Have a great day.
YOU KNOW YOU'RE FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK WHEN...
You only own three spices - salt, pepper and ketchup
You design your Halloween costumes to fit over a snowsuit
When the mosquitoes have landing lights
When you have more miles on your snowblower than your car
You have 10 favorite recipes for venison
TrueValue Hardware on any Saturday is busier than the toy stores at Christmas
You live in a house that has no front steps, yet the door is one yard above the ground
You've taken your kids trick-or-treating in a blizzard
Driving is better in the winter because the potholes get filled with snow
You think everyone from the city has an accent
You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie with only 8 buttons
You owe more money on your snowmobile than your car
The local paper covers national and international headlines on l/4 page, but requires 6 pages for sports
At least twice a year, the kitchen doubles as a meat processing plant
The most effective mosquito repellent is a shotgun
Your snowblower gets stuck on the roof
You think the start of deer hunting season is a national holiday
You head south to go to your cottage
You frequently clean grease off your barbecue so the bears won't prowl on your deck
You know which leaves make good toilet paper
The mayor greets you on the street by your first name
There is only one shopping plaza in town
The major parish fundraiser isn't bingo - its sausage making
You find -20F a little chilly
The trunk of your car doubles as a deep freezer
You attended a formal event in your best clothes, your finest jewelry and your snowmobile boots
You can play road hockey on skates
Shoveling the driveway constitutes a great upper body workout
You know the 4 seasons: Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
The municipality buys a Zamboni before a bus
You actually 'get' these jokes, and forward them to all your Northern friends
A $400 electric bill is a bargain.
Well said Kevin, but there is one thing you and I don't have where we live. We don't have the New York subway. I know you had some bad experiences while an employee, but from my vantage point everytime I ride the subway when I'm in New York is a rush. I have always felt that way, even when I was a kid.
Whenever I've gone down to the city, that front window was MINE. Heh. I don't think I got treated any worse at the time than any other "newbie" and the main thing for me was finding out that after wanting to work the railroad since I was 5 years old, I quickly learned that I just wasn't cut out for it. That was my own major disappointment. But I still love it and never missed an opportunity to go for a ride and shoot the sheet with folks who worked there. Most were amazed that I knew precisely when to shut up so they could do their thing in peace. :)
And yes, the trains are the one thing I miss the most as well.
Why the NYC Subway, of course!
:-) Andrew
if you got a rail fan window then you have the best subway / rail system !! ....lol !!
Everyone left out my two hometown and up there on best systems, Newark City Subway (PCC Era) but still good and Path prior to 9/11.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
"the dayton subway system & all with railfan window equipped cars" ...............YEA !!!
G) DC Metro
Clean, efficient, and pleasant to look at.
And, though I love NY's large and complex system, the ride on DC Metro is loads of fun. If they only had express trains and stations...
dayton
I'd say "A)".
#1 - Because it's the only subway system I know fully sufficient of.
#2 - Because I have established many times of "history" in my life on the NYCT Subway. (I remember the "good old" times, although I wasn't around when the R10's have left behind a cloud of dust on CPW and things like that.)
#3 - Because I have the most chances to ride it and I am closest to it.
I think that will take care of it. Of course, other people have lived longer than I have and have done a lot more traveling and have more experience than I do, so they have different opinions.
: )
Railfan Pete.
A! Com'on! Ok, London and Tokyo may come up close, but still, NYC.
The most unusual is Sydney Australia, which has double(really split level) cars, but it is also a Surburban Line like a combo opf the MTA and LIRR in one
The N and R station at the WTC was shown on Channel 2 News today.
... and ...?
okay
r142man
2 all the way
I saw the report and tape. They said the escalators to the WTC were totalled. (This is from the WTC mall to the underpass from Downtown to Uptown NR.) The photo showed heavy damage in the escalator area. Now I am going to guesswork based on my knowledge of the station area..
The mall is separated from the downtown platform by just a slidig door. I expect the door blew out and debris damaged the downtown platform. The escalators were outside of the door just before the downtown platform.
Based on this I am guessing the following:
1- Downtown platform damaged to some extent and some or most of the rooms there were damaged/destroyed probably by debris.
2- underpass probably full of debris at the downtown end.
3- Uptown side probably OK.
No info was given on Rector or City Hall.
I expect Whitehall is OK but is isolated from the rest of the system. I expect City hall is Ok but closed due to city direction and nearness to the site. I expect the tower is probably manned.
I have not been in the area so some of this post is educated guess.
Has any B Division person been in the area- perhaps a tower operator or T/O- C/R.
I don't understand how the Whitehall station is isolated. Why can't they run to/from Brooklyn from this station?
-Hank
From coworkers that have been on the site at ground zero,I understand that a communications equipment room at Cortlandt Street station on N/R got destroyed but the rest of the station platform area survived.
I've seen pictures of Cortlandt-1 where the ceiling over the roadbed has collapsed near the 5-car marker.
Should have read the entire posting before responding. Sorry!
Because the switches at Whitehall are controlled from City Hall Tower. To the best of my knowledge, City Hall is NOT manned at this time - this is also the reason why there is no Broadway express service.
I take the Q train to Queens Plaza from Brooklyn in the mornings on weekdays. The Q express service (Aka Q diamond) goes express in Manhattan from Canal to 57/7 whereas the Q local (Aka Q circle?) service goes local from Canal to 57/7. This is probably an effort to unclog up the road since two Q services and a W service are on the BMT Broadway line. I think its a good move.
How's the movement there? Are the expresses actually "express" unlike before where they moved up way too slow?
It seems that we always wait on the switch at Canal Street north or south bound. In the mornings I actually have made reasonably good time getting into work with this arrangement. I used to take the D to the F train to Queens Plaza before the bridge outage. That took me 45 minutes usually as long as I made the connection to the F train. Then when the bridge outage came about between July 22 and Sept 11 I took the Q to either the R, W or N to either QBP or QP which took me between 45 minutes to one hour. I have a 10 minute walk from QBP which increases my travel time. With the new arrangement of Q to QP, I make it in 45 minutes with no train changes.
This is my hypothesis on the BMT damage:
The Southbound platform has some moderate damage,the ubderpas is either full of debris or has some damage to the stairs and the uptown platform has no lights.
I don't think Rector street,Whitehall street or City hall has any damage(Besides the need for a scrubdown).
I don't think Rector street,Whitehall street or City hall has any damage(Besides the need for a scrubdown).
It's funny, right after The Day people were saying that Rector Street IRT had caved in and that there was damage to the Montague Street Tunnel (check the archives).
Like I said before, the first casualty of war ...
> They said the escalators to the WTC were totalled.
You mean the ones that burned in a fire and weren't reopened yet?
My thoughts exactly! All they did to the escalators was put sheetrock around them (and paint it quite nicely!) I used that station 3 days a week and saw no sign of activity.
John
I saw this too on Ch.5 news last night. It was a short piece showing an underpass corridor with a MTA sign for the (N)(R). Behind the sign was the escalator and everything blocked by boulders etc. I can imagine what it looked like upstairs.
Bill "Newkirk"
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October 6, 2001
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Channel 4 just announced Chambers on the A and C is open but the only exit is Chambers at Church Street (By the part-time booth which I presume will operate full-time for the time being). No mention was made of Park Place 1/2 or WTC/Chambers on the E. No mewntion of City Hall on the N/R.
Mike- change the map to show Chambers IND A/C as open.
(Channel 4 just announced Chambers on the A and C is open but the only exit is Chambers at Church Street)
I used that exit almost every day for 13 years (when not walking over the bridge for exercise). I called City Planning to see how my old mates were doing. Their phones are still out.
Sorry for being negligent in my reposting duties. I got this on Sept 21. Please Enjoy. Remember, I do not write these.
**********************************************************************
Today, We look at life in commuter passenger service.
Part 1, the South Shore
I had the chance to work in commuter passenger service at two different
times in my career. I worked for the Chicago, South Shore and South Bend for
one year as a Collector in passenger service and as a Brakeman in freight. I
also worked for Metra for two years as Locomotive Engineer. I did pilot an
Amtrak train once, an excursion train once and pulled a company business
train as well, but that is not quite the same as the daily rigors of
passenger service. In part one, we are going to look at the South Shore.
While I worked both freight and passenger while at the Shore, we'll focus
primarily on the passenger aspect.
I can honestly say that after these two stints of service, I have no desire
to return to passenger either. I guess it was what makes my boat float so to
speak.
I had been furloughed at the MoPac twice in a month from two different
locations. In the weeks prior to the second lay-off, I had only been working
a couple of days a week. With this furlough though, there wasn't any hope on
the horizon of returning anytime soon. I had already been sending out
resumes to other railroads in the quest for gainful as well as steady and
secure employment.
I got the call from the Shore about two weeks after I had been cut off at
the MoPac. I had an interview and eventually got called to report for a
physical. I, along with a friend from the MoPac who also got the call, were
both sent for physicals at the same time. This guy had a friend who worked
at the Shore and we met up with him later and discussed many aspects of the
company and the job. We both started about a week later.
We were hired as Coach Cleaners. This was some strange policy the Shore had
developed. Everybody would start out in this capacity and go through a
training program. You would have to make observation trips through all the
facilities. These trips were to be done on your own time. We had to learn
the layout of the yard at Michigan City (called Shops Yard), Gary and
Randolph Street. Aside from knowing the locations of all the tracks and the
yard layouts, we had to know where power switches that cut off power to the
overhead 1500 volt DC catenary were located in case of an emergency.
Gary was very simple, as aside from the two main tracks and the passenger
station, there were only two other tracks. They were used for storing cars
throughout the day. Randolph Street Station in Chicago was not too
difficult either.
Shops Yard was more involved though. Here were numerous tracks, most of
which were used for the passenger car fleet. There were car and locomotive
shops here to facilitate repairs on freight and passenger cars as well as
maintaining their fleet of ten GP38-2 locomotives. There was also some
contract repair work for other railroads and car leasing companies performed
here. There were a handful of tracks for freight business as well. A
passenger car wash rack was also located here.
The training program required sixty days to complete. Aside from qualifying
in the yards, we had to learn the passenger equipment. The Carmen at Shops
Yard, Gary and Randolph Street used to hostle the equipment around the yards
and build and break up the trains. We learned some of these facets while in
the training program. We had to study the rules and write out a portion of
the operating rulebook. We were given a final exam and were required to get
an 85% if I recall correctly. As part of this examination, we were also
required to draw maps of all the yards. After successful completion of the
program, we were given the opportunity to choose which craft you wished to
enter. Upon making that decision, we then began formal training in our
chosen craft.
Prior to my arrival, the best record for completing the program was
twenty-seven days. I did it in six. I had no desire to clean coaches for
four weeks yet alone two months. There was a serious lack of sleep going on
here as a result of my ambitious task. There was also a taking of note by
senior officials as to my efforts.
The senior management team on the South Shore was very visible and
accessible. When introduced to Jack Alexander, President of the railroad for
the first time, he knew who I was right away. My reputation had preceded me
into the room. For once in my life, this was a good thing. When he asked
about my ambitious accomplishment and intentions I responded matter of
factly, "I want your job."
One of the few good things I encountered at the Shore was senior management.
They talked to us frequently. They knew our names. They treated us pretty
decently all things considered. I knew all of them and was even on a first
name basis with a few of them. I even lunched with one of them a year or so
after I left the Shore.
I was told when I hired about how short they were of Engineers. I was told
that I would be running engines and trains in about six weeks or so. When I
left there one year later, I was about ready to begin the training program
to be an Engineer. More of that "promises are like babies" thing again.
The Shore had a policy in freight that required you to be a promoted flagmen
in order to work the caboose. I took the Flagman's test a few weeks after
getting qualified as a Brakeman/Collector. You didn't need it to work
passenger though. Oddly enough, there were no questions on this test at all
dealing with flagging rules and procedures. Only on the railroad could this
happen. There were only two of us on the Brakeman's extra board qualified as
Flagmen. Needless to say, we worked freight almost exclusively for a couple
of months. Eventually, they promoted several others and I worked some of
everything on both classes of service.
I talked quite a bit to several of the old heads and learned some of the
tricks of trade. They explained how some passengers went to great lengths to
beat us out of fares. They showed me how to spot them or smoke them out. I
became very good at this and caught people that had been getting away with
"shared rides" and dodging fares altogether. In several cases, those I
caught threatened to "have my job" as they considered my actions harassment.
I would write out the Director of Passenger Operation's name and telephone
number, and hand it to them. I would also include my name and tell them to
make sure they mentioned it when they called. Needless to say, none of them
ever did, as they would be giving themselves up in the process.
Shared rides; The monthly tickets were what was commonly referred to as
"flash cards." They had the zone numbers in large numerals in which the pass
was good for such as "1 and 4" This meant between Downtown Chicago (zone 1)
and East Chicago/Hammond (Zone 4). Every month, the tickets were a different
color. They were also good until noon on the first Monday of the new month
to allow riders the opportunity to get the new ticket for the new month.
Some folks would split the cost of one monthly ticket and cut it in half.
What they would do was each stick half of it into a book sort of like a
bookmark. We didn't have to punch a monthly; so most folks would just hold
them up or have them sitting in a little holder. They just flashed them at
us, hence the name flash cards.
When this tactic was explained to me, I began to check very closely. When
somebody only displayed half, I would reach over and pull it out of the book
or wherever they had it stuck, or request they remove it for me. On
occasion, there would only be half. When this happened, I confiscated it and
then charged them a cash fare. I submitted the ticket to the Director of
Passenger Operations with an incident report. I quickly gained a reputation
of being a no-good SOB for this tactic. Those I caught also called me lots
of bad names. I believe the late Charles O. Finley once said, "It doesn't
matter whether they are speaking good about you or bad about you, they are
thinking about you."
Then there were the folks that could never seem to find their ticket when
you checked them. It was standard to come back to them in a few minutes.
When tipped off that this too was a tactic for free transportation, I
changed my methods. There were four women who used to get on at two
consecutive stops in the same zone. I would normally check the first couple
after departing that stop and then the others at the other stop. One morning
for whatever reason, I checked them all at once. Of course, one could not
find hers and I came back later. This made me suspicious.
The following day, I again checked them all at once. Again, the same one
couldn't find it. I told her I would wait while she looked for it. After
extensive searching, she could not find it. I proceeded to charge her a cash
fare for the ride. She made quite the ruckus about it and called me a few
names. I politely informed her that should she continue her tirade, I would
have her removed from the train. She shut up and paid the fare.
The next morning I used the same tactic. Again, she could not find it. While
she was searching though, I took the offensive; I punched the corner of each
of the other three ladies tickets with my ticket punch. I then told her I
would be back in a minute. I came back and she hands me a monthly and says
"See, here it is." I then confiscated it and told her this was not hers as I
had not punched hers. I said it must be a stolen ticket and therefore
invalid. At first she claimed another Collector had punched it. I stated
that this would be impossible as it was my punch and nobody else's.
Everybody's punch had a distinctly different pattern that was unique to that
employee. I knew mine and knew this was it. Now she tried to drag her friend
into her little web. The friend immediately spoke up and offered to pay the
fare if I returned the ticket. I agreed and told her if this happens again I
will just call the police and have them arrested for ticket fraud.
I did this tactic to several others and smoked out a few more fraud cases
too. Some of the other Conductors and Collectors wanted to know how and why
I got so maniacal about this. I explained that this is what helps pay the
railroad, which was continuously cash strapped. The more cheats I catch, the
more farebox recovery and the better chances we will stay in business.
Counterfeiting also became a problem as somebody began to make exact copies
of monthly flash cards and was selling them. To combat this tactic, NICTD
(Northern Indiana Commuter Transit District) which subsidized the passenger
service created monthly punch ride tickets. These tickets had 57 rides on
them. The average person commuting on the train worked 22 days per month
meaning 44 rides would be used. There was no refund on unused rides if there
were less than 14 rides left on the ticket. People thought they were getting
ripped off. When I explained that you didn't get a refund on the flash card
if you didn't use it 6 or 7 days per week, that seemed to appease most of
them.
What was going on with some of these people though was this; they would let
their kids use them on the weekends to go downtown. We all knew they were
doing it, but we really couldn't enforce anything. Now with the 57 rides, if
the parent let the kids do this every weekend, they might use up all the
rides before the end of the month and leave them short the last few days.
Again, we had people passing these tickets between them. I caught onto this
and developed yet another way to catch them. I guess it pays to have a
criminal mind as I can catch those that think up these sinister little
games. I would take one and instead of punching the next ride off, I would
fold the ticket all up and take off maybe ride number 7 or some other ride
way deep in the ticket. I only did it with people I suspected. I kept a
mental note of whose I did and where.
When asked why I was doing this, I told people "Just to be silly" or some
other lame excuse. One morning I put my plan into effect. I got a ticket
from a rather attractive woman who I suspected of being a scammer with her
husband. Being the train was always jam packed when they boarded at Hammond,
they, along with numerous others, would be standing in the vestibules. They
never stood next to each other when I came to collect. What I suspected they
were doing was passing it between them behind the backs of others while I
punched tickets. Sure enough, he hands me a monthly with a ride punched in
an odd location. And I knew I hadn't punched one like that for him. Of
course he denied it and claimed another Collector had done it. So I made him
write out his name and address on the back. There was a space for this and
it was always recommended the passengers did this in case of a theft.
He didn't think too much about it until that evening when he was riding home
on my train. He gave it to me first and I punched it. His wife hands me her
ticket a few moments after and I flipped it over and saw his name on it. I
told her she was in violation as they were both attempting to ride on one
ticket. I confiscated it, charged her a fare and turned it in with a report.
She proceeded to read me the riot act and used quite the language in doing
so. I looked at her husband and asked him if he actually kissed her knowing
she had such a filthy mouth. She quickly shut up and turned about 15 shades
of red. She then gave me the I'm number one sign. That is what that finger
means, right?
Within a week, several passengers told me the word was out about my cracking
ticket scammers. They told of several other couples and some friends doing
the same thing. With my new plan in effect, they didn't want to risk
getting caught and losing the ticket altogether. Now, they were going out
and both getting monthly tickets. A few of the honest folks actually thanked
me for taking these measures.
I used to chase passengers through the train that tried to beat me out of
fares. On more than one occasion, I opened the rest room doors and chased
fare dodgers out of there as well. Strange as it may seem, I never once
walked in on anybody in the attitude of elimination or indecency. Again,
more threats would be unleashed at me and again, I heard nothing.
I once chased an elderly woman through the entire eight-car train to get a
fare. She would board an evening rush hour train at Hammond at my doors as
soon as the detraining passengers cleared. She would then vanish by heading
up to the head end of the train. One evening I attempted to stop her and she
told me she normally paid the Conductor. So I followed up on her. The
Conductor told me he never sold her a fare. So I asked to see her cash fare
receipt. She could not produce one, so I charged her. She called me all
sorts of names but paid just the same. After that, she would purchase a
ticket at the station and it to me when she boarded.
I once had a well dressed gentleman (sic) refuse to give me a ticket for his
fare. He got very ugly and stated that because the train was late; he didn't
have to pay. I politely attempted to explain that the schedule was not a
guarantee of on time performance. It was also not the basis for what fares
were charged. He began to make quite the scene. I went for assistance and
the railroad police were more than happy to usher him off the train. When he
resisted, they were even happier to cart him off (very physically as he
refused to walk) They took him for an all expenses paid trip to the crow bar
motel.
We always had to be on the lookout for scam artists that would try to talk
you out of money. They would give you say a $10 bill for a $5 fare. You give
them their ticket and change and they would say, "Since I already gave you a
ten, if I give you another ten, would you give me twenty back? Having worked
around money for years (with none of it mine), I was very wise to these
tactics. Never got stung this way, but I know some that did.
We also had to watch for the cheats that would give you a $100 bill first
thing in the morning for a $5 fare telling you this was all they had. They
knew you very likely didn't have the change. I put a stop to this when I
would take the money, give them a receipt and an IOU for their change and
tell them meet me at Randolph and they would get all their change. It was
amazing how fast they would discover a misplaced fiver or sawbuck in their
wallet or purse.
On one occasion during a mid-day run, a gentleman gave me a $100 bill for a
$4.35 fare. I asked for something smaller and he responded in a snotty tone
that he needed the change. What do I look like here, a Currency Exchange?
Being that I had to remit cash fares when I got downtown, I had enough on me
to make the change. But his attitude made me a bit upset, so I played upon
it. You'll get your change all right pal.
As luck would have it, there was the afternoon crew of Collectors
deadheading downtown on this train to be in position for the afternoon rush.
I took that C note and went to the deadhead car to get change. I worked a
plan to make change with many of the guys deadheading in that car. I then
returned to the passenger with his change. I handed him 95 singles and 65
pennies. He immediately started to bitch. I reminded him that he was the one
who said he "needed the change." I thanked him for his patronage and walked
away smiling my sinister smile.
While I quickly realized I was not too crazy about the job, I managed to
adjust to the work and lifestyle here. I eventually developed enough
seniority to hold a regular job as a collector in passenger.
About 70% or so of our passengers were women. This presented quite the
opportunity for a single guy like me. Most of our guys were married once or
more to women they had met on the trains. I was involved in a very serious
relationship that was beginning the onset of a slow and agonizing death when
I started here. This job wound up finishing it off. I dated several women
that rode the train. In fact, this was where I met the beautiful bride. She
thought I was bit screwy on our first meeting. Little did she know.
Eventually we developed rapport and the rest, is history. 15 years later and
she is still with me. It is either love or insanity. I'm hoping on the
former but betting on the latter.
Riding under that 1500-volt DC wire was well, interesting. I never really
felt comfortable with it overhead. When working freight, you always had to
mindful of its presence. When climbing a car with a high handbrake, you had
to be careful that you didn't reach up over your head. Even though there was
space, it still was within trouble making distance.
We did get into the wire one evening on a rush hour train. We were coming
into Wilson near Midwest Steel in the Portage/Burns Harbor area around 70
mph. All of a sudden there was this tremendous racket overhead like a
pounding or hammering sound. There was all sorts of arcing outside and the
lights on the train were flickering on and off. I heard the air go and held
on. We stopped quickly. I went to the intercom to talk with the Conductor
and Engineer and was told we had gotten into the wire. Don't know if it
broke or the carbon strip (which makes direct contact on the pantograph had
snagged it or what.
In any event, it was rather cold outside and we knew the cars would not stay
warm for an extended period. The Dispatcher called and said a freight job
that was heading towards Baillytown would set out their train and come and
rescue us. We herded everybody up to the head four cars as the rear two were
the ones all tangled up in the now downed wire. Being we were past Miller,
our previous stop, we did not have too large of a crowd left, so the
passengers were not all packed in like sardines.
We did have an episode though. A female passenger started to come unraveled.
She started screaming and carrying on that she had to get home and could not
be stuck on the train. I told the Conductor that a smack across the face
might straighten her up, like in the movies. He laughed and decided against
it. I guess that is why he was the Conductor and I wasn't. She started to
carry on that she worked for the railroad and demanded we get a hold of
somebody to get her off this train.
The Conductor called the Dispatcher and relayed the information. He
apparently contacted her husband who drove to the train and picked her up.
Of course, this created a bit of an uproar with the remaining crowd. The
freight engines showed up and coupled on. All South Shore engines carried
the special adapter needed to couple the standard AAR coupler to the
tightlock couplers used on the passenger cars. There was also an adapter
hose to allow connections for the brake pipe. We could not connect any power
source as the locomotives did not have head end power and the cars used
rapid transit style grids to make the MU connections between the cars. So
they operated on their battery back up for the rest of the trip in. This
meant emergency lighting and no heat or air circulation.
I learned the next day that the woman who created such a fuss was dismissed.
She was not an agreement employee; that is protected under a collective
bargaining agreement. She was in a white-collar position referred to as a
non-agreement employee. This meant they did not have to show cause and
present such a cause in an investigation.
The first head on collision that happened in Gary took place about four
months or so before I got here. In working there for a year I could see how
it happened. A lot of rules were "overlooked" to try to keep trains on time.
When I first started there, trains were only on time about 57% of the time,
the single worst in the industry. It wasn't bad track and speed
restrictions; it was due to being a victim of our own success. Passenger
levels had grown significantly and the schedules could not handle the
extended dwell time at each station to meet the growing demands. So
schedules were extended to allow more time. Then they raised fares.
Oh boy, a fare increase. It had been the first one there in years. The
passengers screamed bloody murder. NICTD added several more trains to the
schedule and was attempting to secure funds to order additional cars. I was
getting tired of fighting with passengers who didn't want to pay the fare
increase and were demanding the help take a cut in their pay to avoid such
an increase. I had to explain to people that contrary to popular belief, we
were not making $150,000 per year. Hell, we weren't making a fifth of that.
I frequently mentioned they all had received annual wage increases and how
we had not had one in over a year and a half. They didn't care; we should
take cuts so they can ride cheap.
I was starting to burn out from all this. I quit defending the railroad and
told them point blank, "If you don't like it, drive. You can spend all that
time in traffic, burn up all that gas and then spend a fortune to park
downtown. In a month you'll be back and happy to pay the increase." This
shocked quite a few people. It also shut them up.
As I had mentioned, rules were overlooked. I got called for a flagging job
one day in Gary. I was protecting some construction workers near, but not on
the tracks. The handset radio they issued to me had developed problems and
would not transmit more than about 1000 feet. So I did the proper flagging
thing and set out torpedoes to slow the trains to restricted speed. When
they got close enough for me to be able to talk to them, I could allow them
to proceed through my limits. They did not have me on a train order to
protect my limits; it was up to me to contact the trains.
I later got my butt chewed by an acting Assistant Trainmaster for using this
method, even though it was required by the rules. His exact words were "It
is causing too much delay to the trains." Never mind the rule in the very
front of the book that stated "Speed will be sacrificed for safety", I was
slowing already late trains down. I was going to go see the Assistant Super
about him but an Engineer went and turned him in to the Superintendent
first. I got to hear the ripping of hind side from three offices away. When
it was all said and done, this guy comes up to me and tells me like a little
kid, "Thanks to you, I got in trouble." I told him I did not turn him in as
I was beaten to the draw. However I mentioned that he deserved it.
This lead to a blood feud between us. He would go out of his way to try to
get me on some chickenshit charge. I would usually prevail. He did get to
cite me once on a very minor infraction, nothing that even caused me any
grief. All I got was a letter in my file. This simply meant that the
infraction had been pointed out to me and it had been discussed with me and
I signed a letter stating such. There was no disciplinary action taken.
I was able to get him in huge trouble again though. He made the terrible
mistake of giving out my home phone number to a female passenger. She called
my house. When she did, I asked her how she got my number as I have always
been unpublished and unlisted. She told me she called the Dispatcher and
that he gave it to her. She said that she told him it was very important. I
called him and asked and he admitted to it. The next morning I contacted the
Assistant Super and explained what had transpired the evening before. He
stated the rules were very clear that it was expressly forbidden to give out
employee phone numbers to anybody. So this guy got still another hind side
slashing. I thoroughly enjoyed this news when I was told. I know, I must be
sadistic or something.
Towards my last few months there, we were having another of our many
financial crunches. There was talk of reductions in weekday service and the
possible elimination of some or all weekend service. The Chicago news media
was covering this entire episode. They sent TV crews out to ride the trains
to get reaction from passengers and train crews. I had a crew on my train
from the NBC affiliate. I even made the late news. I Iooked like an old man.
The stress of far less money and as many hours along with the long drive was
catching up and taking its toll.
As the South Shore and its funding source of NICTD always seemed to be in
financial trouble and the fact that I was not really happy here, I continued
to look for greener pastures. I always wondered if I was going to have a job
the next month. I didn't need that as I spent enough time dealing with that
same issue in the last few years on the MoPac. Eventually, I was called by
Guilford and left the Shore for New England.
My friends there told me I was crazy for leaving. They kept telling me how
good I had it. Hmm, let's see; I'm making about 40% less per day and I'm
working as a Collector and still not an Engineer. Engineers here make less
than I did at the MoPac. I have to drive 40 miles each way to and from work
through a region that has terrible snow storms in the winter. I didn't feel
particularly safe working here owing to the rules attitude. I have it how
good?
In part 2 we'll look at my time at Metra.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
(you'll see my mug shot there, suitable for target practice)
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001 by JD Santucci.
Here's a question about an often-ignored rapid transit line, the Cleveland Transit System. I know that CTS used to use a line car that had been rebuilt from a 1914-era center entrance streetcar. The number of this thing was #024. Does anyone know what happened to it? Another center-entrance car that was rebuilt in a similar manner was Shaker Heights #031, and that is preserved (sorta) at the Northern Ohio Railway Museum. But what about the 024?
Frank
I believe it is still on the property. I saw it there last summer at E 55th. I hear some rumors of it going to Trolleyville but don't know for sure.
Laddie
You can find "Peter Witt" center entrance cars in museums around the country. Shoreline at Branford CT has two, #2898 from Toronto, is the classical single direction version (she'll be used by Santa's in Dec.); #8111 is a double ender (she's from Brooklyn & needs restoration). Seashore in ME also has two: #1213 from Rochester & made in Cincinnati plus #6144 from Baltimore & made by Brill.
Mr t
How was 2898 regauged?
-Robert King
Sorry, don't know the specifics of that, but she does operate just fine on our standard guage line.
Mr t
I think that re-gauging was done by the NHRR shops for us in
the 1960s or early 70s. An inch and a half is not a very
difficult thing to do. We just pressed each wheel in another
3/4 inch and relocated the brake hangers on the brake beams.
Probably the axle collars had to be faced down too.
I should go ask my contacts at GCRTA for info on 024.
Their GM apparently doesnt like the "junk" cars around the yard,and wants to be rid of them ASAP. There was an offer by Trolleyville to lend their operating ex-Shaker cars for the recent line extension opening, but was declined because of the image they wanted to protect. This is second hand info.
"Their GM apparently doesnt like the "junk" cars around the yard,and wants to be rid of them ASAP."
Oops. Well, I hope they don't scrap much old stuff (if they have old stuff). Doesn't CTS keep one of the old 1950's rapid transit cars around (I think it's either 109 or 112), along with the "Airporter" rapid transit car that's owned by the Northern Ohio Railway Museum? Of course, here I'm referring to the heavy rail system and not the old Shaker Heights line.
Those "old" heavy rapid cars were unfortunately included, as per someone who worked hard to keep them off the cut up list. I don't know what the real situation is out there. Sounds real strange to me.
GCRTA is also looking at that guideway bus thingy that the French have been trying to sell US properties (check the GCRTA website), that everyone who has tried it in Europe has "difficulty" with (ref the LRTA mag). Wait til it snows.
The 109 was pulled off the scrap list at the last minute. They did not recieve any bids for the other cars.
Laddie Vitek
"The 109 was pulled off the scrap list at the last minute. They did not recieve any bids for the other cars."
Does that mean it's for sale? I thought they were keeping it as some sort of excursion car, a la 4271 and 4272 on the CTA. If it's for sale, we should mention it to Jerry... I have to say it would look less out-of-place than some of the other rapid transit cars we're thinking of acquiring at IRM...
8-)
It's been a few weeks running under the emergency service plan
on broadway and things really suck. 2 questions spring to mind.
1) If it is going to be 6 months before the lower broadway tracks
re-open, how feasible would it be to back out of the Manhattan
Bridge project and restore service on the north side?
2) If not, isn't there any other route code that can be used
for the bway-QB service? This circle-Q diamond-Q stuff is
confusing the hell out of the passengers.
1. It would be up to NYCDOT to back out of the Manhattan Bridge project. I brought the matter up with the planners when the World Trade Center-related changes first happened, and was informed that the project was already well under way -- some of the infrastructure is already gone. As for 6 months of no BMT Broadway local service, we'll see... :-)
2. Other route codes could be used, I suppose, but just as people got used to circle 6/diamond 6 and circle 7/diamond 7, they can get used to circle Q/diamond Q.
David
With a sawzall, you could take the express / local indicators out of the departing redbirds, and install them in the R68's! no problem.
...or they could hang one or two lanterns in the front window, like for Paul Revere at old north church in Boston...
Or people could observe and learn, for once.
WHaddarya? nuts?
Ha, ha, ha ha!
Hang a dothead sup to light up the express path. Peter
If it is going to be less than 6 months, I guess the Bway line
can stick it out for that long. I think all the DOT has been
doing is lead abatement.
The reason I dislike the Qdot Qdiamond is because it goes against
everything the TA has been trying to do over the past decade in terms
of route code simplification. You have 2 significantly different
routes operating under the same letter. The 7 line circle/diamond
is a pure local/express distinction. The Pelham service is similar
to the Q circ/diamond fiasco, but the difference between the services
is only in the Bronx, and it is more logical in that the local train
terminates early with a zone express. The Q circle is a local
but its terminal is much further out, on another line, really.
Back in 85 I disagreed with the elimination of double letters.
I still think that system was more mnemonic that what we have
now.
Why would you want to switch Manhattan Bridge service back to 6th Ave. now? That would mean that the Broadway BMT would be completely out of service south of Canal St., with no service to or from Brooklyn at all. So it's a good thing that the bridge flip did take place 9/11.
Er, a word got deleted by mistake. That should of course read "...did take place before 9/11."
Not switch back, but have all 4 tracks available.
there is a bway service plan? sure coulda fooled me! f'iggitaboutit!!!! =)
So why can't the R run Forest Hills - City Hall with all that R46 equipment laying around, and forget the circle-Q extension ?
David has said that the local tracks south of Prince can't be used.
"David has said that the local tracks south of Prince can't be used."
Close. What I said, and what remains true today, is that the local tracks south of Prince Street are usable, but their use is still being prohibited by the (non-NYCT) Powers That Be. As soon as NYCT is given permission to run through the area, service will resume.
David
Well today is a rare double feature due to some recent lazyness on my part. I recieved this on Sept 28th. Sorry about the chart. Subtalk sort of massacres the format. Enjoy
**********************************************************************
Today, It's a stand off.
I had every intention of writing part two about "Life in Commuter" this
time, but the wacky world of real life railroading dealt me yet another
episode that seemed to almost demand I write about it instead. I'll get to
back to Commuter soon though.
For those of you unfamiliar with Otto on the CNIC Chicago Subdivision, I
will give you background and even attempt a first and include a map. The
folks at Rand McNally need not be concerned of my cutting into my market
share.
We'll start with the map. The top will be north and the bottom south.
And it goes without saying it is not to scale.
to Gar Creek MP 57.6 (north end of Otto Siding)
and Chicago.............^..
...................../I...I
.....Henkel........./.I...I
.....Chem..........I..I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
..............Otto....I...I
.............MP 60.3 I...I
......................I\..I
......................I.\.I
.............---------I...I...North wye connecting
......................I...I...to B&P Main
.............---------I...I...South wye connecting
.................... /I...I...to B&P Main
..................../.I...I
.................../..I...I
................../.I.I...I
................./..I.I...I
Stone...........I...I.I...I
Yard............I...I.I...I
Tracks..........I...I.I...I
.1.&.2...........\..I.I...I
..................\.I.I...I
...................\..I...I
....................\.I...I
.....................\I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
.......................\..I
.........................\I
..........................I..South Otto MP 61.7
So now that you have gazed upon it, let me explain it just a bit. The track
on the left is the siding between Otto and Gar Creek. Once upon a time, this
used to be the other main track. The track to the right is of course, the
main. The track to the left between Otto and South Otto is the Otto Pass.
The other main track used to sit in between the Pass and the main. Now it is
a road. The two tracks to the left off the Pass are called Stone Yard 1 and
2. Otto (switches from siding to main and north wye) and South Otto (switch
from Pass to main) are control points controlled by the Desk 2 (Chicago
South) Dispatcher. The stone yard tracks and the south leg of the wye to
the B&P Main are hand-operated switches.
When a northbound train has to set out at Otto, there are three ways to
accomplish this task. The Dispatcher can line the train right into the Pass
at South Otto and they can set out from there into the Stone Yard. Or they
can run you down the main and into Otto/Gar Creek Siding and you back the
set out through the control point into the pass leaving the set out there or
lining yourself into one of the Stone Yard tracks. Instead of lining you
into Otto Pass, they can have you set out on the B&P Main. In this case, the
Dispatcher handles the switches for the move. In most cases, the second and
third choices are chosen over the first. In many cases, there are cars
already on the pass, so you have no choice.
Clear as mud?
Now, with all this in mind, here is the scenario that took place Saturday,
September 22nd. I am working 338 heading south. We have just made our set
out at Kankakee some two miles north of Gar Creek. We are departing and
Chicago South informs us we will be heading into the siding at Gar Creek,
and then from Otto we will use Otto Pass to South Otto. This is because a
northbound coal train (727) has to make a set out and pick up from the Stone
Yard at Otto.
I left Kankakee on an approach signal meaning that I most likely will have a
stop signal at Gar Creek. My Conductor Charlie Peck and I discussed the
ramifications of what was starting to unfold before us. We incorrectly
presumed the coal train was taking headroom on the siding to back into the
pass with his set out and would then go against his pick up. We figured the
Dispatcher was going to hold us at Gar Creek while he made these moves. We
were wrong, again. That's what we get for thinking.
I come around the corner and observe a diverging approach signal (red over
yellow) at Gar Creek. This tells me that I am lined up to enter the siding
here. So we proceed on signal indication trying to figure out what is
playing out here. As I approach Otto, I observe the signal there is a
restricting (red over red over flashing red). This signal means I am either
lined up to proceed into Otto Pass or am erroneously lined into the north
wye for the B&P Main. On occasion, a Dispatcher has coded in the wrong line
up, so nothing is left to chance. I proceed prepared to stop short of an
improperly line switch.
We see the correct line up. The Conductor on 727 informs us that he has
lined the hand operated switches for us and are now lined up to proceed
directly into the Pass. This saves us a stop. We also observe 727 still on
the main awaiting our passage before starting to do his work. We quickly
realize this plan is destined to fail.
Chicago South had instructed 727 to stop back when making his cut to leave
room to hold his pick up. This means they had to stop back far enough to
allow enough room for their pick up to be added back to their train so as to
clear the signals at Otto. This way when they completed their work and air
test, the Dispatcher could run them right down the main. This was one of a
series of very serious errors in judgement.
Now closing in behind 727 is F711, a Union Pacific detour train. Back in the
distance some 40 miles or so Amtrak 58, the northbound City of New Orleans.
I pull into the Pass almost as far as I can go, stopping just one car length
from the signal at South Otto. 727's train is hung out across South Otto and
well south of there. 711 has stopped behind him with about a five-car gap
between them. I have 104 cars. Otto Pass is good for about 106 cars. 727's
Engineer, Craig Pugh informs me we have cleared the signal at Otto by about
a car length or so. The Stone Yard tracks are effectively blocked, as my
train does not clear them to allow 727 access to set out and pick up.
He can't move. I can't move. 711 can't move. In the old days, this was what
we called "A Mexican Standoff." In today's political correct world you
cannot say it. However, I never much subscribed to political correctness.
This far outweighs the old "Catch 22" situation of being damned if you do
and damned if you don't because here, you just plain and simply cannot.
Charlie and I discuss what can be done here to clear things up and get them
rolling again. All they have to do have the coal train couple back up, get
his air and head to Kankakee to set out and just highball the pick up. Then
have 711 head into the siding at Otto to clear and we just sit and wait for
Amtrak. 727 should have his work complete at Kankakee by the time 58 shows
up and does his station work in town. This would give 727 enough time to
pull his train all the way into the clear at KX, the south end of Kankakee
Siding. Being that he has over 70 cars after the set out, he would not clear
up at KX when he stopped to do his work. Or, they could have 727 shove his
cars onto teh B&P Main and highball the pick up, pull into the siding and
let 711 around him. However, being that I am not running the show, I offer
no advice. And having had a few Dispatchers take exception to my suggestions
over the past 23 years, I offer them none.
Instead, 727 calls Chicago South and informs him they cannot set out as we
are in the way. There is the normal "Stand by" response and then dead
silence. After about 10 minutes, Chicago South calls 727 and asks how many
he has to set out here, "Seven" replies Craig. "And now many do you have to
pick up?" "Twenty-three" is the response. "Stand by"
One of the things we railroaders do best is stand by. We have years and
years of practice at it. This is because we have been told to do it so
frequently and routinely. I firmly believe it is the very first standard
response in the list of responses in the Train Dispatcher training manual. I
have developed my skills of standing by into an art form all unto it's own.
Perhaps we could make this a competitive event in the Summer Olympics.
Some twenty minutes has elapsed from the time Craig informed Chicago South
that we are in the way to this moment and no instructions have been given.
Also at this point, we have less than four hours to work.
Finally after about another five minutes, Kenny McMullen, the Conductor on
the daylight switcher at Kankakee gets a hold of the Dispatcher and suggests
he have 727 set the cars out on the lead that goes into Henkel Chemical.
This track comes off Gar Creek Siding about three miles north of where we
are sitting. This is agreed upon and 727 gets his train back together and
pulls into the siding. 711 passes him by going down the main and heads in at
KX to clear for Amtrak. By this time, 58 is by the detector at Clifton some
seven miles south of here.
Now here is what should have been done to start out with. 727 should have
been headed into Gar Creek siding first. They had two options with us. They
could have held us in the siding at Kankakee. 727 would not have had to make
his cut so far back so as to hold his pick up. They could have brought 711
up behind him. Had they held us in Kankakee, when 727 completed with his
work, he could have pulled all the way into the siding and let 711 around
him. 711 would have met us at Kankakee and could have easily made to Peotone
or even possibly to Stuenkel and the double track for 58.
Option 2 would be to bring us down the main at Gar Creek to Otto. Again, 727
would use the siding and do his work. 711 comes up behind him. Instead of
doing his air test right there, 727 could have pulled into the siding
clearing up for everybody and do his air test there. Head 711 in at South
Otto, as he would have easily fit. We head south from Otto when 727 clears
and affect the meet with 711 at South Otto when he clears. We can race to
Ashkum for 58, possibly not delaying him at all. There was a slow order of
25 mph in effect for several miles south of Ashkum, account track work in
progress, so it was likely we would not have dinged 58 at all.
Once upon a time, about ten years ago, there was another crossover at Otto.
This switch was located north of the present switch and just south of the
southward home signal that protects this control point. It allowed southward
movements from the main track into Otto Pass and the B&P Main. Trains could
use either the main track for headroom and opposing movements could
patiently wait on whatever track was not being used for headroom for the
train doing work to complete it. This switch also gave the Dispatchers much
greater flexibility. However, owing to "cost effectiveness", this switch was
removed. A decision was made to cut costs. That was all that mattered.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001 by JD Santucci
As a responce to security concearns, Amtrak has discontinued the sale of tickets onboard its Northeast Corridor trains from Washington to Boston. Tickets can still be purchased on a train on the Empire and Keystone Corridors and the Inland Route, but you will still be required to show a photo ID. This policy is going into effect on Monday.
I read about this in today's Times (albeit without the details) and as I am planning a trip to Boston next week and was planning to buy my ticket on board I caught a local bus to Meriden, CT (8 miles), bought my ticket and then caught the next bus back an hour later. It was only later that I learned the ban did not apply to inland trains. However, my ticket was $5 cheaper than was quoted online so it was worth it.
I fail to see what this accomplishes.
Terrorists have tickets, photo-ID's, and even stolen or phoney SS #'s.
Terrorists would probably als choose a mode of transportation with a higher passenger density. Let's see, Amtrak trains with about 8 cars with 2-2 seating and nearly indestructable Budd build coaches with limited access from very public stations or an SRO LIRR train with like 14 cars, 3-2 seating, isles just brimming with people and completely unmonitored access from small local stations that have drive up parking. Heck, it even costs less.
This comes under the heading of pacifying the pax by "doing what they can." When the new national ID cards are issued, it may serve some purpose.
When the new national ID cards are issued, it may serve some purpose.
You seem certain about that.
When the new national ID cards are issued, it may serve some purpose.
There aren't goint to be national ID cards. For photo ID, A valid State Driver License/ or ID card will suffuce.
The problem is that no one in NY knows what a Wyoming driver's license looks like.
What if the station has no ticket booth, or it is closed when the train arrives?
You are SOL.
Of course you really have to be a pudding to miss the ticket window hours at NEC stations. Even then most of the busiest stations have TVM's that are still perfectly ok to use 24/7.
Not all stations! Metropark closes at 830pm weekends and Holidays and 1030pm weekdays. The Amtrak Ticket machine is inside the station building.Amtrak does have trains leaving Metropark when the station building is closed.
Especially on weekends I get many people walking up to me asking whre they can get a ticket for Amtrak and I have to tell them the building closed at 830pm.
To answer the question, they will just have to buy the tickets in advance.
Princeton Jct's Amtrak machine is also inside the depot, which does not open until 730am on weekends. Just when Amtrak has a chance to boost ridership, they do this knee-jerk security crap, and shoot themselves in the foot.
**Maybe** (We can hope! that is still allowed!) They'll move all ticket machines to an outdooor location (or add a second machine.)
To Joe V- e-mail me off site. I am interested in a description of the Shuttle from princeton Jct to Princeton with pictures of Princeton Station.
Since you must be near Princeton Jct it will be prwetty cheap for you to cover this brief shuttle for nycsubway.org
Go home.
The station at Meriden CT on Amtrak's Springfield Line had always looked sort of run down. The station reeked of 70's unattractiveness and the concrete platforms were crumbling and patched with asphalt. However, over the last 3 months the station has seen some significant improvements. The old platform was dug up and replaced with new new concrete. The rubish strewn trackbed was cleaned and re-balasted and a new metal canopy now protects the entire platform length from the elements. The train station does serve as a local transit hub and if in the middle of Downtown Meriden (if you can call it a downtown.) This may be a step in a much larger project that might also create a bus terminal for local bus routes and taxi services that converge on the station.
Yes, but how many folks does it serve ? Can you count them on two hands ?
Mr t
Good old Meriden. I can't count how many times I drove through it on Conn. 66, now I-691, when I lived in Cheshire.
It's official, the 4:54PM out of LIC (Headed to Oyster Bay) travels along the old montauk line! I did it today, it was awesome, the scenes around you are wonderful! I didn't see any R142s along the side, but the diesel yard is freakin cool. A must for any LIRR railfan!
Too bad that Richmond Hill Station is now closed, because that was a good place to get pictures. The other stations on the line were almost rural in their settings.
There was no logistical reason to close it. It had hi-level platforms, but hardly any customers.
hardly any customers is a somewhat logical reason, no?
i'm sure the line would have done better if it had regular service, not just rush hour only... that and some real platforms. wasn't richmond hill the only one with hi level? penny bridge was a (*^&%*$*$%^) dirty road crossing without even a sign!!!
if i recall right, at the end there was perhaps a dozen people that got on or off along the line...
A friend of mine works for the airlines, He is thinking of going to Europe later this month to ride subways, trams and watch trains. He has been to London, and Amsterdam, What place would be the most interesting for 3 days Berlin, Munich, Paris, or other suggestions.
Berlin has a lot of options - rapid transit, trams, etc. and I hope to get there myself someday. Another option with a lot of trams would be Vienna. Paris Metro is nice (and if he's never been to Paris he should go) but it's almost all underground and doesn't have much variety, all things considered.
Air fare on Northwest thru Amsterdam this winter is around 350.00 with taxes. Hotel packages with good hotels starts at 77.00 a night for a single, 42.00 pp double including breakfast and taxes 3***
I've been to many European cities; all are extremely diverse and interesting whether your interest lies in trolleys, subways, trolleybuses or railroads.
But my favorite city is Karlsruhe, Germany. The system there has to be one of the most - if not the most - progressive one in the world. The Verkehrsbetriebe Karlsruhe (VBK) operates trolleys and railroad trains on the same tracks (even though the 18th Century-minded Sleeping Beauties at the Federal Railway Administration says this is technically impossible and certainly can't be done), and have done so safely for over fifteen years.
They also have what I believe to be the longest trolley line (numbered S4) in the world - over 56 miles, with a one way traveling time exceeding two hours. This line starts out as a regular streetcar line in the town of Heilbronn, and at the western end of town climbs onto the rails of the Deutsche Bundesbahn (DBAG German Federal Railway network). It then stays on the DBAG tracks operating as a high-speed interurban until reaching the outskirts of Karlsruhe, where a ramp from the DBAG tracks connects with the city's streetcar system. The line then goes through downtown Karlsruhe, which is strictly a beautiful pedestrian and trolley-only mall (where trolleys operate on a 1 to 2-minute frequency all day long) about two miles long. After exiting the mall, the line runs on the street to just in front of the main railway station, then goes back onto the DBAG tracks for its high-speed journey to the main railway station at Baden-Baden. Along the way, where the trolley shares the tracks with the DBAG, you may pass or see the famous ICE (Intercity Express) trains, along with regular high speed and local freight, passenger and commuter trains. The S4 is not the only route to offer a trolley/railroad service; at least six other lines also do so (with about 115 kilometres of dual-running) - and more are planned. The trolley network in Karlsruhe and environs, including the 115-km operated on DBAG rails, is about 341-km. The trolleys that offer this service are dual-voltage vehicles, designed to operate either on the normal 750-volt trolley or the high-voltage railway network. Some of these dual-voltage trolleys have operated in demonstration service on the national railway systems in France and Switzerland, starting their journey from Karlsruhe!
As if this isn't enough, one route, S1, offers trolley and steam locomotive service, again on the same tracks (although the steam-hauled trains operate on a very limited schedule).
The brilliant German engineers (not transit "con"-sultants as in the U.S.A.) have built a world-class transportation system for this medium-sized city. It has been so successful that the 1998 deficit for the entire local transit network was only DEM 41 million (about 20 million dollars). Numerous other European cities are now considering or building the same systems with assistance from the VBK. Why can't we do the same in North America?
Interesting - you bet. One shouldn't journey to Europe without stopping by to see this fabulous system, which is just about 100 miles south of Frankfurt.
>>> Karlsruhe, Germany. The system there has to be one of the most - if not the most - progressive one in the world. <<<
Joe;
How old is that system. Karlsruhe was one of my favorite cities to visit when I was in Germany in 1960, but I do not remember any trams there at all. Are the trams run with multiple units or single cars? And do they really use trolleys? That seems pretty unique in Germany since most trams use pantographs.
In 1960, the area which really impressed me with the interurban trams was Mannheim, which was well connected with all the towns around it using articulated trams running on streets in the towns and on its own ROW between towns.
Tom
They use pantographs.
-Robert King
The Karlsruhe system dates from 1877, and it was the only one built to standard gauge in southwestern Germany. Articulated cars are used; some operate in multiple unit. There are also high-speed express services offered on some of the routes that utilize the German Federal Railway tracks and on the Albtalbahn (the first Karlsruhe area interurban). Current collection is by pantograph; the word "trolley" was used as a generic term for the vehicles.
The Mannheim system which you mention is similar in ways to Karlsruhe's operation, except that it is narrow-gauge. Some routes are interurban in nature; none of the routes, however, operate on the German Federal Railway system . The interwoven systems in that area, located not too far north of Karlsruhe, actually connect three cities in a triangular -shaped network: Mannheim, Ludwigshafen and Heidelberg.
Sounds interesting for 1 day, 100 miles South of Frankfurt?
Just about. Between Frankfurt and Karlsruhe, in a generally south direction from Karlsruhe, there are also trolley systems in Mainz, Darmstadt, Mannheim, Heidelberg and Ludwigshafen (in three latter cities there are 5 separate systems, but are they are integrated).
To fully appreciate the Karlsruhe system, which is extremely widespread, one needs at least three days, although a good sample could be attained in one. To "chase" and photograph this system fully, at least two weeks are required because of its expansive size.
Excellent articles on the Karlsruhe system recently appeared in the December 200 and April 2001 issues of Modern Tramway; also a new beautiful large photo-filled hardcover book on this system's history (available at the systems retail souvenir and public relations store at Marktplatz) was recently published; it is, however, in German, but the photos, rosters and system chronology alone are worth the price.
If you'd like to see European trains and trams without leaving your 'puter may I suggest my Webcam site at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html and click onto:
Rapperswil Switzerland for its major train station Zurich Switzerland for trams Munich for a German train yardand both Poland webcams have streetcars. For bus fans click onto Dublin Ireland. There are also some American cams with trains on it from around the country. The LIE webcam at Willis Av has the overpass with the Oyster Bay Branch on it and if you click the FDR drive then click 135 Street there is an overpass with Metro North on it.
Brussels is worth a visit, with quite a lavish metro for its size, and a very extensive tram network witrh plenty of varity: different vehicles, reserved track, street running, and underground lines. The tram route to Tervuren runs past a transport museum, then through the countryside to a large park - very restful, and historic vehicles run during the weekends in the summer.
Ghent is easy to get to from Brussels, and has both trams and trolleybuses running in the city centre. I am told that Antwerp is well worth a visit too.
He decided on Berlin, see later Post
M0SCOW for its gorgeous stations and mid-50s like trains.
wayne
THERE'S a place that would be interesting to visit. Gotta get hooked up with some Moscow Metro staff so we can have a guided tour -- or at least not be bothered while taking pictures! :-)
Perhaps next year?:)
Simon
Swindon UK
St. Petersburg has a nice system too... my daughter was actually more impressed with that one than with Moscow's when she was there in 1998.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Moscow system's getting an extension, too. I don't know any of the details of it, but it was reported here (Toronto) because they bought one of the TBM machines used to dig the Sheppard line's tunnels from the TTC to use on their extension.
-Robert King
The Moscow central area stations are like being in a museum; however, in the outer areas the stations are very plain, almost bleak.
But they are DEEP! Long (and fast) escalator runs to get to the platforms. Reminded me of the deepest London Stations.
Fare was 5 Kopeks in 1990. About a penny to go anywhere in the system!
I am surprised that no one has posted this yet, but the Chambers St./World Trade Center station has been reopened for passenger service.
I was waiting for a downtown A at Canal St. today at about 5:15 when an announcement was made that the Chambers St. station was now open in both directions. I was surprised to hear that, and I convinced myself that the guy doing the announcement must have said that Chambers was *not* open, and I misheard him. Then I looked up and saw several people with quizzical looks which seemed to say, "Did I really hear that?" So I realized that I wasn't the only one who had heard it. I concluded that the station announcer misspoke.
But, sure enough, when I got on the next downtown A, they announced on the train loudly and clearly, "the Chambers St./World Trade Center stop is now open."
That is exactly how the announcement was made, with the station's full name. I must say it felt nice to hear it said that way, as opposed to hearing that awkward pause that is usually inserted by conductors when they refer to it simply as "Chambers St." ("Attention ladies and gentlemen. This train will be skipping the Chambers St.-- (pause) -- station.")
I was on what had to have been the last passenger train to stop at Chambers/WTC. I got off an A there on Sept. 11 at about 9:20 (a few minutes after the second collision). It was a pleasant surprise to be on a train that was among the first to re-open the station.
Ferdinand Cesarano
It opened at about 4:45 PM.
Now, of course, someone is going to be a kvetch and ask "Why didn't they open the WTC station for the E". Very simple. Where would people go? The south exit will be closed for the duration. And when they walk to the north end to use the staircase, where do they wind up? You guessed it - the Chambers St station on the A, C.
The WTC E station should be open for all those who are working at the site. Maybe they could rig up some sort of direct access. Fare control there could be used in reverse. You need to show ID to get OUT of the station, but comming the other way it would be free. I think that the MTA could begrudge some free transportation to those who are cleaning up the big mess down there.
The WTC E station should be open for all those who are working at the site. Maybe they could rig up some sort of direct access. Fare control there could be used in reverse. You need to show ID to get OUT of the station, but comming the other way it would be free. I think that the MTA could begrudge some free transportation to those who are cleaning up the big mess down there.
Last I heard, the Ground Zero workers assemble at the Javits Center and travel down to the area in groups.
You idea would require police to be posted at the station to limit the people allowed to exit. That would be one more cost for the city to have to absorb.
Wait wait, you got off and A train at 9:20 on the 11th! Why on earth did you do that? Where did you go from there? Had the news not reached you?
Wait wait, you got off and A train at 9:20 on the 11th! Why on earth did you do that? Where did you go from there? Had the news not reached you?
I knew about the first crash only. I got on the A at about 8:45 at Rockaway Blvd. I was listening to the radio, to Bob Buchmann on Q-104.3. At the 80th St. stop, soon before we went underground, Buchmann said that there were some incredible pictures on CNN, and it seems that a plane has hit the World Trade Center. Then, we went underground, and I couldn't hear the radio any more.
I work at 90 Church St., directly across Vesey St. from the World Trade Center. Yet, it did not occur to me that I shouldn't go to work. The scope of the event just wasn't yet apparent.
When the A train got to Jay St., there was an announcement that the train would be going over the 6th Ave. line. I figured that this must be because of whatever was happenng at the WTC, but I still had no clue of the magnitude.
We sat at Jay St. for quite a bit, then there was another announcent which said that the train would be going normal, but, "due to an emergency at the World Trade Center", we would be skipping Chambers St. More waiting, then a third announcement, this one saying that we would be going over the 6th Ave. line.
Then we took off, and I was surprised when we pulled up next not at York St., but at High St. -- we were going the normal route after all.
I assumed that we would be skipping Chambers St./WTC -- since that's what announcement #2 had said -- so I prepared myself to get off at Broadway/Nassau. But, before we pulled in to that stop, an announcement was made stating that Chambers would be the next stop after Broadway/Nassau. So, I stayed on, since the Barclay St. exit of the Chambers/WTC station is just a few yards from the door of my building.
When the train got to the Chambers St. station, the place was completely deserted. There was no one on the platform -- no passengers, no MTA people, no cops. It was only at this point that the first little light went on in my head suggesting that something major might have happened.
This led me to look back on the strange announcements at Jay St. and realize that the subway folks were in a state of confusion. I started to get a sinking feeling that, in all the confusion, the powers-that-be thought that our train had gone the 6th Ave. route, since that had been the last announcement. I then got the scary thought that maybe the MTA somehow didn't know the passengers from my train were in the WTC station, and maybe they've closed the station, trapping us in there.
I was very eager to get to the street at this point, and I went to the Murray St. exit instead of going all the way down to the Barclay St. exit. When I got to the staircase, I was really happy not to see gates at the top, and I ran up the stairs with a sense of relief. I figured that whatever was going on at the WTC would cause havoc in the street, but that I would be inside my building in no time, so I would be alright.
Then all the people on the staircase were met by a cop at that top who told us we couldn't walk south down Church St. I walked across Church St. to the other side to think about what to do, since I was being told I couldn't go to my building. Only then did I look up.
I knew about one crash, so I expected to see one of the towers with a hole in one of its sides or something. Instead, I was shocked to see both towers on fire -- no. 1 with black smoke billowing out of it, and no. 2 with red flames coming from a red gash. I quickly thereafter gathered from people in the street that there had been a second crash into the second building, and this made me realize that it was no accident.
I realize now that the second crash had occurred only minutes before my ascent onto the street. If not for the long delay at Jay St., I might have seen the second crash.
So, anyway, I am assuming that this was the last train into Chambers St./WTC until this afternoon.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Wow. Someone at the TA put you at tremendous risk by letting you off there.
Wow,
Quite a story, glad you're OK.
Marc
I thought the official name of the A/C station was Chambers Street and the official name of the E station was World Trade Center. They're often referred to informally as a unit, but Chambers Street is the full name of the station that your train stopped at and that previous trains were skipping.
Is Park Place open as well?
Park Place is still closed (at least as of 830am on 10/7) and I expect it will be closed for sometime due to the proximity to Broadway (one entrance actually exits to broadway). The other exit connects to the undeground passageway leading to the WTC Mall andf to the Chambers St exit from the A Line (exits to Murray and Warren and Chambers St.)
From the A platform, the only exit open is the far North exit to what was a part-time booth which I am guessing is operating full-time for the duration.
Ideally, both Park Place and WTC (E) would be open, but with access only to the A/C platform (and from there to the north exit). That would allow passengers to transfer directly between the 1/2 and the E. The transfer between the 1/2 and the A/C is available one stop away, but it's a slightly longer walk there.
But what's wrong with giving access to Broadway? Broadway is open to pedestrians at Park Place -- I was just there last Sunday, walking past the closed City Hall and Park Place entrances. (Actually, I was on the east side of Broadway, and I'm not sure if the west side was open. Even if it wasn't, passengers exiting from Park Place could be shoehorned directly to and across Broadway.)
I dont know why Park Place is still closed. All I know is what was stated here.
On the subject of speed, lets talk the Rockaway A-line south of the Howard Beach Station. I have seen signs that said 35mph south of the station to the first Jamaica Bay Crossing. (By the way the A-train seems to ride on air, thanks to the installation of new tracks, in spring 2001. Anyway after the A crosses the fist bridge south to Broad Channel and the Rockaways, does any one know if the A thake advatage of the new tracks and go's behond 35mph on the strait way to Broad Channel? Also what is the speed for limit for crossing these bridges?
A trains reach an average top speed of 45 mph on the Rockaway flats.
The speed limit on the North Channel Bridge is 25 mph. The South Channel Bridge is also normally set for 25 mph, but due to renovation work being performed on the Bridge, it has a temporary 10 mph speed limit.
Forgive me if postings have already occurred about this topic, but has anyone noticed how the post-Sept. 11 subway route changes mirror old service patterns on the NYC subway system? Some examples:
#1 to New Lots: Until the major Broadway IRT restructuring in 1959, #1 Broadway express trains ran local from 242 to 96, express to Chambers, then local to New Lots.
Q to Forest Hills: When the 60th Street Tunnel connection to Queens Blvd. opened in 1955, the first BMT route to go to Queens was the Brighton Local, today's Q train.
W to Astoria full time: This was a BMT pattern for many years in the 1960's prior to Chrystie St, when West End expresses used Astoria as their north terminal.
No direct service to Sea Beach and 4th Ave. Lines from Midtown; served only from Nassau St. Loop: This pattern is really ancient; prior to the 1915 opening of Manhattan Bridge subway service, all BRT/BMT services from South Brooklyn crossed the Brooklyn Bridge and terminated at Park Row Terminal. Anyone who wanted to go to midtown had to transfer to an IRT subway or el, or take a Third Ave. Railway trolley. Today a passenger on a J or M train from South Brooklyn can transfer to the IRT at Brooklyn Bridge, directly under the old BRT el terminal site.
If I recall correctly the BMT history on this site, the 4th Ave subway opening was coincident with the Broadway line opening. Similarly, the Sea Beach connection occurred at the same time. Neither of these lines went over the Brooklyn Bridge.
On the other hand, the Culver connected with the 5th Ave El, and the West End could have as well, which went over the BB. Similarly, the Brighton connected via (today's) Franklin shuttle and thence to the Fulton St line to the bridge.
The Brighton local (QT) that went to 71 Av-FH went through the Monatague St tunnel. Today's Circle Q is a combination of the QT (in that it goes to FH) and the QB (a Brighton/Broadway local going over the bridge).
But it is true: The Q (today's Diamond Q) and T (today's W) ride again!
You're right about the 4th Ave. and Sea Beach routes. Prior to the Manhattan Bridge subway, people travelling from those areas used the old el routes that crossed the Brooklyn Bridge. From the 4th Avenue area, the old 5th Ave-39th St-3rd Ave. el combination went as far south as 65th Street. Sea Beach cars were normally coupled to West End or 5th Ave. trains, disconnected at an intermediate point (as example Bath Junction, today's 62d St/New Utrecht intersection), and then ran to Coney Island. My point is that people from those neighborhoods only had a one seat ride to Lower Manhattan, and today the same situation applies. Of course, prior to 1915 these Southern Brooklyn areas were semi-rural, not built up as they are today.
Well sources are coming out that there is a 90+% chance of another terrorist attack on/ in the United States. Its a matter of when, there is a high probablity that a Transit System might be a huge target.
Will the MTA and other Trasit Systems around the United States take precautious, and study tapes from the Tokyo Subway Station Nerve Gas Attack?
If precautions are taken, what types will be? The New York City Subway System was shutdown for several hours when the events on 9-11 took place, a chemical attack on the subways can shutdown the subway system for a day or two.
Has the New York City Transit System talked about this possiblity on an extremely serious note?
I would imagine that the NYCTA is taking the threat of another terrorists attack seriously.
On Monday, I was on a s/b Q going from Queens to Manhattan. Naturally, I was railfanning. At Queens Plaza two plainclothes cops got on the train. They knocked on the T/O's door, and asked him to go a little slower. As we rode from QP to Lex, the two officers were using their flashlights as if they were looking for anything unusal along the tracks or.
Once we merged with the 60th tunnel, we went at a normal speed.
Another thing I've noticed, and I know some of you T/O's can verify this, is that at 59th/Lexington on the Q/W lines, there is always a police presence at the eastern end of the platform, right at the beginning of those long escalators.
I thought it had something to do with the high speed, and strong wind created by s/b trains coming into the station. It would probably spread any kind of germ warfare much faster this way, as I once read.
There is also now an ongoing police presence at the eastbound end of 53rd/Lex. Apparently guarding the tunnel entrance.
CG
ditto for Manhattan bound 8th Ave IND at High Street. Usually two officers.
And the north side of the nbound platform at 125th and Lex.
You guys are dreaming.......the best security and safety of the system is in your hands. TA assigned officers can only do so much beyond their tours requirements....the property protection personell are still dancing 'the MTA Shuffle.' Peter
Same thing at Ely and 23rd St. at the southbound end of the southbound platform.
has anything been noticed by the Steinway tubes?
avid
There has been at least one police officer at the 3rd Ave end of the 7 platforms at Grand Central (I work directly above it, in the building across from the Chrysler Building) for the last few days or so...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
What realistic precautions can be taken? None.
If anyone thinks about it logically, the transit system in NYC, and most transit systems in general, are 100% vulnerable.
First, biological and chemical weapons. Both of them can be released inconspicuously, and biological weapons have the added bonus of being able to spread itself from victim to victim. Unless they start giving each cop air sensoring equipment, or the terrorists start making themselves obvious (or we start implementing one hour lines for security checks at all turnstiles), there's not much that can be done.
Now, explosive devices are a little different. They are generally either a) too weak to do excessive damage, b) too large to be carried inconspicuously, c) nuclear. Now don't get me wrong, by too weak to do excessive damage, I don't mean that everyone in the subway car will survive, but the tunnel won't be collapsing. And nuclear, well, lets not even go there.
Many of the biologicals are very hard to make and then store/release. For example, with Anthrax you not only need to grow it, but you need to grow a deadly strain and then you need to get the deadly strain to grow spores and then you need like pounds and pounds of it.
For the cost of one anthrax attack you can like send 100 backpack bombers into the NYCS for a co-ordinated mass attack. that is what i would look for. A co-ordinated attack at transportation infrastructure. The main point will be to not kill people, but to basically fuck up the economy that is dependant on the transportation system. Even after the damage is cleared you'd have all these new security measures to deal with that would could billions and billions down the road and make travel take far far longer.
Supermarket cleaning aids are still available to do harm but exotic materiels have limited range........just pull out the carbody airconditioning filters to see what you're sucking in throughout the entire system. Peter
Because the 1 line is now a wreck, has the MTA given any thought to restarting the old Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle train? Or possibly send the #5 train there? (First five cars only)
NYCT's not going to either put back the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle or start running Lexington Avenue service to South Ferry. This was a hot-button issue on Subtalk a week or two back.
David